Investigative MEDIA

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  2. FYI- Karen Fann was really on the ball today making sure she got my email. I am really looking forward to posting her reply to me…whatever it say’s and whenever it comes.

    She actually seems to be a really concerned and dedicated representative of the people when I am communicating with her one on one.

    But then again…she probably has a hard time squaring my one on one emails with what I write here as well.

    Everybody has an angle.

    Reply

    • I just checked…the spot price for copper is a little less than $2.00 per pound and the spot price for brass is a little less than $1.50 per pound.

      Copper thieves climb up on commercial buildings in Phoenix and spend the night ripping wires out of the roofs and air conditioning units to sell by the pound. And they have to go burn the insulation wires off that first, which is hard, time consuming, and dirty work.

      How long do you think a statue made out of bronze sitting unattended in a remote area that weighs hundreds (?) of pounds is going to last when It can be taken in one fell swoop?

      It’s time for a reality check!

      Reply

      • I think this ‘larger than life-size’ bronze statuary thing ( 1.25 scale ) has always been a really, really BAD idea ( for all the reasons you have pointed out and then some ).

        Not only does it add a tremendous COST to the project… which the Arizona legislature is unwilling to fund and has to be done with ‘donations’ ( which they may or may not even get )… it’s just simply not necessary.

        I guarantee you… just about anyone who sets off on that 2 mile, steep uphill hike just to reach that point up on the ridge where that ‘alternate escape route’ actually turned to the east towards the Boulder Springs Ranch already knows why they are going up there… and what a wildland firefighter is.

        They don’t need to see some ( expensive ) bronze figures holding chainsaws and pulaskis to ‘get the picture’.

        And as for the “Larry the Lookout’ statue… I think that’s the worst idea of all.

        I’ve been wondering what this statue’s nickname should be and decided that ‘Larry’ is about as good as anything.

        LARRY stands for…

        “Lookout ( that was ) Absent ( that day ) Retroactively Returning ( to ) Yarnell”

        They should DROP the ‘statuary’ idea.

        Having that sort of thing in a completely UNATTENDED boondock park has NEVER been a good idea… for all the reasons you mention.

        What if they get hit by lightning up there on that ridge it ends up causing ANOTHER Yarnell Fire when the vegetation grows back?

        Not even worth the risk.

        Reply

        • Right. And I guess I keep thinking they were talking about putting one down by the main highway, but maybe I remember that wrong? I don’t think any meth heads would carry the things down off the mountain, but they had better not be near any road. I just really like the rock cairn idea, it is so simple and so poignant given the Ashcraft story and the aspect of enabling visitors who want to “do” something to make it a little better. .

          I don’t know if you have ever been to the plaza around the courthouse in downtown Prescott, but that is were they have a gigantic statue of Bucky O’neil on a charging horse. He was a Prescott cowboy who ended up with the Rough Riders charging up San Juan Hill with Teddy Roosevelt that’s at the front (north) end of the courthouse.

          Then there is a war memorial on the west side and another gigantic statue of a cowboy laying down with his gigantic horse behind him like he is overlooking the valley of the Little Big Horn on the south end.

          There isn’t anything on the east side where they park the prisoner vans take them into court. Everyone else uses that entrance as well. Anyway…I think that would be a really good place to put some more statues if they get the money to buy them.

          But I don’t think any of “them” want to hear my opinion where I really think they can stick their statues. In any case, it will be interesting to see how it plays out. I guess I am wondering if they can raise another two million on top of the thirteen or fourteen million they already raised to donate to the families?

          Reply

          • And I really, really, really…REALLY HATE the idea of a statue representing a lookout…unless they arc weld his head to his ass.

            Reply

            • Well back to the Simple. I think the Rattle Snake Fire Memorial is a great example of what a Memorial is all about.
              Metal 2.5 inch square tubes made into Crosses cemented into the ground and painted white. with a trail from a parking lot with a Bathroom FS camp ground stile. You can hike out to and visit each cross some are in a group some are scattered out in different directions where the Fire fighters ran to before they were overcome.
              My dad with 7 others were in one group the other 7 were scattered over a larger area one made a run of almost 300 yards and was just below the Road. But trails to all and a spot they keep open of brush representing the Spot Fire.
              On the road looking strait across the canyon at the site and Crosses they have a very nice explanation area with metal pictures of the 15 a bell from the Missionary camp Seats and a Picnic table.
              Those have been there for almost 10 years now and well kept by the FS recreation department no vandalism has occurred.
              It is a 40 min. drive from Interstate 5 to the west.
              It is a learning area where people can walk thru the crosses sit amongst them feel the terrain and see the thick brush stand in the Spot Fire and see where they were in relation to the Main Fire.
              Discuss the discussions made and what they could do or would do different. Many and I mean many fire crews from northern and central California State and Feds use the site for training every spring. I could not tell you if or how many Civilians go there its not a real destination site but dose get visitors because of its access.

              I can tell you as a FF I can stand there and feel the heat the Panic the screams the excretion of crawling thru the brush while the Big Dog is breathing down your neck and you know you are trapped. Some stay to gather some take off on their own The brush is so thick you wonder how they got as far as they did.
              I am glad for and very proud of this memorial though for me as a son and a FF it is a very hard place to go and stand among the Crosses and look at my Dads and the other 7 with him. I know and feel the horror that they went thru. The Lessons learned are what is the value of a Memorial about wild land fire fatalities.

              The Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial for new recruits and other Fire Fighters would send a real training message if they could stand amongst the Crosses and feel the impact of the deployment site when the brush grows back the small area they were in and understand how they got there. The memorial dose not have to be a 911 show place it should be a education spot a place to reflect on wild land Fire fighting and the 10 and 18. It is not statues it is the men their memories and their fight to survive the mistakes that were made that give others pause. The memories of the families for the location of their last stand. IT IS NOT A GRAVE YARD.

              Reply

              • Amen Bob…to everything you said.

                And now, I would like to weigh in on something Sonny has said many, many, many times that I have never responded to and that is because I haven’t known what to say.

                But I have finally thought of a way to put my thoughts into writing…and since you brought it up in an oblique way, now is my time.

                And that is Sonny’s idea about using the Yarnell Hill Fire area as a training ground. And once again, I might just be the negative one (the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park stuff might be there for 100 years and not have anybody vandalize it) but we are a product of our life’s experiences and my have mostly been negative. So…no matter where I go, there I am.

                But forgive me, once again….I digress. And I would like you to weigh in on this and set me straight if I have got it all wrong, or even partially wrong.

                The problem with turning the Yarnell Hill Fire area into a training ground is that the wildland firefighting community as a whole, and that includes the big dog…the USFS, does not spend squat on training wildland firefighters.

                I think the general public would be shocked at how little time and money is spent on training even the best of the best. WTKTT made some comment months ago that the Granite Mountain Hotshots hardly fit the build up of a Type 1 crew because of the number of new people and the amount of training they had received.

                And the fact is, they were probably on par with almost everyone else and better than most. NOBODY gets the training they need or deserve. Almost all training is done in place, wherever that may be, by whoever is available to do so, whoever that may be, using very general, canned and usually outdated training materials that border on cartoon figures that are subpar to Sesame Street educational programs.

                Almost all training is done on-the-job by those who have been there longer than the trainee, even if it is by only a few days. The turnover is incredibly high (yes…I was a fucking Rock Star, that is why I was a hotshot crew boss at age 23….NOT) because the benefits and the pay, unless you are working on overtime, on a fire with hazard pay, on Sunday, at night, and on a holiday really sucks for the job you do.

                And in this day and age of budget cutbacks that have been rampant ever since our UNFUNDED INVASION OF IRAG IN OUR WAR BY CHOICE, things have been much, much, much, worse. And they are not going to get better anytime soon.

                Normally you can tell if you are trained up and a veteran on a hotshot crew simply because you haven’t quit or been killed or seriously hurt…yet.

                “They’ are never going to turn the Yarnell Hill Fire into a training ground except as a staff ride as some point that very few, who work nearby, will ever get to attend. They don’t have any training ground or academy anywhere, except for Marana for a very select few for very specialized training.

                And nowadays, entry firefighters are even expected to get their basic training on their own dime…before they get hired. Hence, the success of the Arizona Wildfire Academy or whatever that is that Marsh started in his living room.. I paid for my son to attend that very academy so he could get hired as an entry level wildland firefighter to beat out somebody that hadn’t paid for the fucking training out-of-pocket…SHIT!

                What say you Bob?

                Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing. I think the general public is wrong about how much training they think wildland firefighters get because they are aware that the institutions that are most often thought of as being similar to the wildland firefighting “community”, do in fact train their recruits.

                  The U.S. Military…trains their recruits.

                  Law Enforcement Departments/Agencies….trains their recruits.

                  Structural Fire Departments….trains their recruits.

                  MacDonald’s Restaurants…trains their recruits.

                  The Wildland Firefighting Community….wings it on the fly.

                  Reply

                  • Since I am spun up right now and getting worse by the minute…let me tell you one more little secret…but please keep it between us.

                    The reason why I succeeded as a hotshot crew boss at age 23 was because I trained under 2 fucking crew bosses who were Rock Stars AND I had a United States Forest Service old school Fire Management Officer who had clawed his way up the ranks as my MENTOR! And I worked for 3 other old school Rock Star USFS FMO’s who I was also able to emulate.

                    All USFS FMO’s are fucking Rock Stars by definition. They really are the best of the best as a group.

                    Now…to take one more layer off the onion. The reason Eric Marsh killed his crew is because he did not train under ANY hotshot crew bosses, and his mentor…was Darrell Fucking Willis! THAT’S WHY!

                    Excuse…now it’s time for me to go get a massage.

                    Reply

                    • Whoops. I should have specified that I have not doubt in his world…the world of blue shirt structural FIREMEN…Darrell Willis was a true Rock Star of the highest order and as such, deserves a tremendous amount of respect.

                      But not in OUR HOUSE!

                • Well Gary I would have to Disagree with you.
                  But that may be because I was in California in the 60s and 70s where training was a high priority or my Supervisors were really high on getting training for their employees.
                  I was also lucky in Idaho to be close to NIFC in Boise where there were classes going all the Time and easy to get to.

                  The Sawtooth Hot Shots went thru the 40 hr. Crew training every year and got Squad boss and Crew boss training for all their foreman the ones on 13/13 are sent to severial S-courses during the off season. I know that still happens. Also the JR collage here has a FF training course in the Spring. There are also now computer courses that are certifiable on Fire training. including the ICS system which all FF must go thru.
                  Again all North Zone California Hot Shot Crews, Engine Crews from FS, BLM, and CalFire go to the Rattle Snake Fire for a Day with travel and discuss the entrapment the 10 and 18 and what happened and why. it could be the same on Yarnell.
                  I know severial crews also go to Storm king Mt. for the same thing although probably not as much.
                  I do believe there is more training today than 25 years ago. Also crews are hamstrung by fire seasons like the ones currently going they have less time for training during the Summer.

                  Reply

                  • A side note —at the dedication for the Rattle Snake Memorial there were Cal Fire crews and Engines along with 3 HS Crews and Severial FS Engines besides the Civilians there it was a huge crowd. there was a Bus shuttle due to the narrow forest road to the site.
                    roughly 400 people this was 50 years after the Fire.

                    Reply

                    • Good…because we kind of winged it on the Mighty Coconino. The new guys always got the 40 hours of course, but after that, it was OJT on the fire line.

                      Cross bosses went to Marana and had advanced training at Region etc. But never for the squad bosses or below. Training was always a low priority.

                      But like WTKTT say’s, we weren’t exactly rocket scientists and like I have said before, it was pretty simple work, which I really like about the job.

                      1. Cut hand line and burn it out.
                      2. Cut hand line and back fire it.
                      3. Cut hand line, burn it out and back fire it.
                      4. Repeat as often as necessary.

                      And I loved it.

  3. WTKTT,

    Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire? And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

    Thanks

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 26, 2015 at 2:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> WTKTT, Please refresh our memories by using you “Wayback” tool as
      >> to where the rock cairn memorial idea came from. Didn’t it start because
      >> Andrew Ashcraft always took a rock home to one of his boys from a fire?
      >> And then I think you (and maybe some other people) expanded on that idea?

      No ‘wayback’ machine needed. It was discussed down below right here in this chapter ( direct link is below ).

      But it is Sonny and Joy who have ALREADY started this ‘tradition’.

      The fact that ( yes ) Andrew Ashcraft would always bring his oldest boy Ryder a ‘rock’ back from every fire… and the one he was bringing to Ryder from Yarnell WAS found in his burned-up backpack and returned to his widow, Juliann, just adds to ‘the story’.

      Very shortly after the tragedy itself, Sonny and Joy had the presence of mind to start ‘the tradition’ by marking the spot near the anchor point where they last saw the Granite Mountain Hotshots with a small pile of rocks.

      As they continued their hikes up there ( this is on land that had NOT been closed by Arizona Land Department ) they ( and others, like Travis Turbyfill’s father David ) kept adding rocks to that pile.

      Sonny just reminded us that he and Joy had done that… and I commented back that this would be an excellent way to honor those that died down near the deployment site itself… ESPECIALLY because of this other story about Andrew and what he would always do for his son Ryder.

      It was Juliann Aschcraft herself who first told this story publicly on her new BLOG.

      Here is a direct link to ‘that story’ down below in this Chapter 16 of this ongoing discussion of the Yarnell Hill Fire ( and the other tragedies SINCE that one )…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309236

      Here is some of the ‘text’ from that thread down below…

      ———————————————————————————-
      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be,
      >> A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that
      >> each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail
      >> going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance
      >> of the men.

      Yes. I have seen that rock pile memorial that you and Joy have already started ( at the last place you saw the men that day ) in many of the publicly released photos.

      I think it’s very fitting and respectful.

      When people visit a place where something tragic took place… there usually comes a moment when you have this strange urge to just DO something. Anything at all. The simple act of just ‘placing a rock’ there with your own hand is a timeless cross-cultural way to fulfill that need to just ‘do something’… and show respect.

      >> Sonny also said…
      >>
      >> It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument
      >> is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some
      >> left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument
      >> would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is
      >> if all are allowed to pay their respects.

      I think that’s a great idea, Sonny.

      It would not surprise me if that sort of thing just starts to happen automatically when this ‘park’ opens to the public… but it would be better if it was actually ‘planned for’ by this committee. Over the years… it would become quite something to see.

      I don’t know if you knew about this… but the reason it would be even MORE fitting is because of something Andrew Ashcraft himself would always do.

      His son, Ryder, loved ROCKS.

      Andrew would always pick UP a rock at each fire he went to and bring it HOME to Ryder.

      When Juliann Ashcraft was presented with what was left from the contents of her husband Andrew’s field pack following the Yarnell tragedy… one of the things recovered from the pack was a ROCK from the Yarnell Fire that Andrew had already spotted and picked up that day and was the one he was bringing home to Ryder from Yarnell.

      Juliann Ashcraft tells the story herself far better than anyone else could.

      Here is Juliann Ashcraft’s BLOG entry about her visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne at the start of Juliann’s ‘Spread the Better’ 50 state tour..

      That visit, itself, became about ‘rock hunting’, and there are also some great photos on this same BLOG page.

      http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

      NOTE: ‘Ryder Ashcraft’ is one of Andrew and Juliann’s 4 children. He is the oldest of their 3 sons. He was born on June 4, 2007 and is now 8 years old.

      In Juliann’s own words…
      —————————————————————————
      Collecting rocks has been a meaningful past time in Ryder’s life. It is an activity that he shared with his Dad. Andrew would pick up a rock on each fire he went on as part of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew and bring it home to Ryder. It was a memory for him of the various fires he went on, and it gave Ryder something to look forward to each time that he watched his Daddy leave for another long work trip. When we received Andrew’s belongings after he lost his life in Yarnell, a beautiful gift for Ryder was found in the side pocket of his pack…a rock from the Yarnell Hill Fire that his Dad had picked out just for him before he passed away. Ryder’s Uncle T.J. (Andrew’s big brother) presented that rock to Ryder just as his Daddy would have if he were here. A cherished moment in Ryder’s life.
      —————————————————————————

      So… yea, Sonny.

      ‘Rocks’ are now (already) a ‘part of the legend’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Tragedy’ and your idea is an excellent one.

      Ryder is only 8 years old.

      He will grow up to be a MAN someday… and imagine how pleased he might be ( as the years go by ) to discover that thousands and thousands of people keep (respectfully) stacking ‘rocks’ at the place where his Daddy died… just like his Daddy used to diligently bring rocks HOME to HIM.

      I just hope this can happen NEAR where those men died… and not have to be in some ‘other’ place and be just an ongoing monument to how ‘the public’ isn’t even ALLOWED to get ‘near’ that place.

      I hope that anyone who feels the urge to ‘stack a rock’ ( for Andrew, or ANY of those departed souls ) and wants it to be NEAR the spot where they died…

      …doesn’t have to THROW THE ROCK just to get it there.
      ———————————————————————————-

      PS: I have news for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.

      I think this ‘tradition’ is bound to continue down there near the deployment site… and there isn’t a damn thing they can do about it… so they might as well PLAN for it ( as in… pick a spot where people CAN / SHOULD place their own rock(s)… and encourage them to do it. )

      As the years go by… it will become quite something to see ( especially for Ryder ).

      Matter of fact… I certainly hope this architect doesn’t have his head so far up his ass that he thinks he’s going to import the ‘ric-rak’ for the (planned) short walls from Home Depot.

      That will just look absurd… to see some kind of non-native rock there.

      I understand that one of the reasons for these ‘short walls’ is because the deployment site itself is in a slight ‘depression’ out there and they have already been numerous ‘flooding’ incidents… but there is still no need to import the rock from Home Depot.

      Just use rock from elsewhere on-site… and then just let people ADD TO IT.

      There would even be that additional benefit for people visiting the site knowing that they are HELPING to prevent site erosion, as well as ‘respecting’ the site itself with ‘their small gift’. There could then be another ‘overflow’ pile started to handle the ( eventual ) overflow. when the short-walls get as high as they need to be.

      It’s also worth pointing out that if this Memorial Board does NOT raise the money they need through donations to carry out the ‘Bronze statues and Marble Crosses’ plan… they are going to have to PUNT and do something simpler ( and much cheaper ), anyway.

      Reply

  4. This is an open email to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going, just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens with absolutely no idea how to manage a public resource because they lack the knowledge, experience or training to do so.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor and pay my respects to the memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my or anyone else’s access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics [and mediums] in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories [Who…me?].”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements and a number of other highly questionable and emotionally charged statements in their entirety and context.

    For example Mrs. Beno Marsh stated, “I don’t know if you’re familiar with the Helms Ranch… but it was a safe zone where Eric was trying to go to save his life.” This statement is completely irrational and is contrary to all of the available evidence. Is this the kind of misstatements and false representations that are going to be approved by the Board for the interpretive signs at the Park? Is it going to be a Park to commemorate lies, satisfy personal agendas and a monument to celebrate business and personal connections to corruptible politicians?

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say?

    And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violates the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they are psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization. Or maybe just from good people who believe the U.S. Constitution should apply to all citizens, not just Fundamentalist Christians.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have currently have because of the Board’s “exemptions and special privileges policy.” It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union, and given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right. Although I would not have put my mother in charge of a memorial site to my father even if they would have wanted to make one. My mother was an emotional wreck at the time and for the rest of her life when it came to the sudden, unexpected and traumatic death of her husband. She was not in any shape to be making public policy decisions based on her personal experience any more than Mrs. Beno Marsh is regarding the death of her husband.

    The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…neither you nor the Board can’t afford me. My time is now…priceless.

    Reply

    • Part 2

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent), I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and from 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around the Valley of the Sun proper. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were with the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets in addition to the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by using them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

      Reply

    • Part 3

      Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

      I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

      Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

      There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

      These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

      The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is, and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

      And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

      The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when, if they are not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

      So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them to go there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible. The more good people you have in the area will keep the bad people from doing things just because the area is remote and unattended.
      Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

      So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

      I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

      Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

      I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

      The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

      You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

      And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

      You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

      And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

      You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

      And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

      You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

      And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

      You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

      And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

      You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

      And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed on this particular issue, I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or in or on any other public place. Get real!

      You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

      And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will get automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

      You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

      And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public money will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

      P.S., I am aware of the latest report from the Prescott Courier that a Conceptual Design has been approved that will allow the public to go to the deployment site but that does not change the much of the focus of my email and I will wait until these plans are formalized before I make any plans to go to the site since the latest word I got from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people is that I was not allowed to go there even though thousands of people are currently allowed to go there under the current arbitrary and capricious rules the Board has established. Even if the public is allowed to eventually go to the deployment site, you and the Board still should can still learn a great deal from my email.

      Your welcome, Gary

      Reply

      • As I am reading Gary’s comments about Rex Maughan’s ranch property near the tragedy I am wondering if air attack was utilized on June 30,21013 to protect his property instead of moving to Yarnell to protect homeowners and citizens there during the afternoon hour when the fire made a run on Yarnell.

        Reply

    • The following is not completed: more to be said and I am having to copy past since what I write is deleted after so many paragraphs. I will try again and here is the paste:You are correct Gary Olsen. I wish your comments were posted on National News for all to see and understand what is going on. If people started hearing these things then we would be assured the actions being taken to benefit a select few would be nipped in the bud. Certainly those men were working for the National interests. The mistakes they made need to be understood by all and not covered up. They will still be National heroes in spite of their lack of intelligent methods on how to fight wild fires. But the site must be open to all and ideally will be made into a training ground on how not to fight wild fires and how to stay alive if you do want to be a wild land fire fighter. Many lives can and will be saved if that happens. I think also there will be a separation of wild land fire fighting and structure firefighting. Nineteen lives lost ought to accent that statement.

      Yes indeed, Amanda Marsh ought to step out of this thing and I was witness to how her emotional impairment has skewed her thinking–that trial of Joy Collura proved that and you spelled it out in a positive manner. The facts are there.

      I have tried to get the FBI involved. Joy has an FBI clearance and carries that card and has for years. She has an impeccable record, not a person to be denied any right in any court when she strictly adheres to the laws of the land including even buying and keeping a permit to walk on state lands. I helped her hand out care packages after the Yarnell Fire and know firsthand of her concern for other people. I think nearly every person in Yarnell will attest to her good character and wiliness and heart for other people–especially those in need and she did not exclude Amanda Marsh and considered Amanda’s harsh and unfair treatment of her as part of Amanda’s grieving process. I felt it went too far as have the uninformed people that want to restrict what ought to be a National site to only a select few.

      Indeed your father was a hero and you spelled it out correctly. Uranium mining is the most dangerous form of underground mining there is. I say that from experience. I likely worked in the very shaft your father died in. Just out Grants. NM is Section 30 where I worked for Kerr McGhee and I also worked for United Nuclear at Church Rock, NM and finally at Standard Oil of Ohio mines near Seboyeta, NM. All those mines are over a thousand feet in depth and usually we worked the 900 foot levels. Going to work in a Uranium mine is like going to war and I always regarded it as so. You never knew in what shape you might be coming back in–and hopefully it would not be as a stiff and many were killed in those mines. Some while I was working and some I helped rescue. Two I remember four miners had to lift huge slabs off the miners while I dragged them out from under. We sent those up in a bullet, a small body cage, up a 900 foot air drill hole to the surface. A rock blast as they were drilling pinned them down. Broken ribs and internal injuries on both but one returned to mining a year later. You see that Uranium ground can not be sounded and has to be bolted and wire meshed on every foot of ground. Even then cave ins and rock blasts were common and open ground an absolute no-no if you wanted to stay alive. Dips in the road and unventilated areas were a great danger. Radon gas is so heavy it collects in low spots and if concentrated in those areas and breathed in, it can’t be breathed out so you suffocate. Four miners died early on when two died and two ran in to drag them out and they too fell dead to the gas.

      Now we needed that Uranium and it was believed a vital element needed for bombs to keep the Commies at bay. We did not want their way of restricting freedoms to become our way of life. The government was intent on getting plenty high grade to do this. Signs that restricted hot areas due to poor ventilation would come down on swing and graveyard shifts. Mine inspectors only worked day shift and were not a problem on other shits. So if you weren’t maimed or killed you could look forward to radiation sickness or cancer. But the good country we are, those miners now who do have cancer get a consolation prize of 150 grand to help them and their families through the turmoil. . The cost of medical help is way beyond that but hopefully the miner had insurance to help–even co pay–Joy paid 48 thousand on Blue Cross co pay on a rattle snake bite she had. Yet sadly most of the miners never collect and then if you worked after 1973 that benefit does not apply. So few get it but then most never live long enough to go though the red tape getting it. See how it works, that radiation sticks to carbon for smokers and sticks to calcium in the bones. In time the cells next the radiation metastasize and po0ff goes the magic dragon–you just don’t know when. A mine cave in on August 1979 ended my career. They would not hire me back at any Uranium mine due to injuries I had incurred–eventhough I tried more than once to get back on. Maybe miners or like soldiers — they want to go back to what they care to do.

      So we know so many have died in the service of their country. It is nice to have plaques and names on walls in their honor. But to restrict those plaques and walls on public property to a select few is like allowing only a few Russians to view Lenin’s body.

      As far as Karan Fan goes, she is a nice person and I bet once she views what Gary has revealed and considers that the Constitution and Bill of Rights would come before a select few and guarantee our right as citizens to visit any public site then she will do some deep thinking on the subject. If Gary’s writings and books go public then all officials in government and especially political persons will start looking to what is good for all and not just a few. To restrict that area goes against all good sense and the American public, if informed of what really is taking place here, will not be happy. Freedoms infringed like this sets a precedent we do not want.

      Reply

      • Thank you Sonny.That means a lot coming from you. You can talk the talk, because you spent a lifetime walking the walk! And of course I can’t take all of the credit for my email to Fann, I just summed up what a lot of people on this thread have said and the work they have done. This effort has truly been a community (a very small one) effort. May God Bless America and Hero’s like you Sonny!

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing. And I am going to try and keep this short but… I think the whole “sacred ground” bullshit can be traced back to that idiot Paxton and Willis moaning about hallowed ground and God having another purpose for those 19 men.

          Kind of a Jesus Christ being crucified on Golgatha and then being resurrected and then risen to heaven kind of…Fundamentalist Christian…thing.

          I don’t know about you, but I view that fucking pit where my father died as cursed…not sacred.

          That is how I feel about the entire Yarnell Hill Fire…it was cursed. Simply having visitors who go to pay their respects and honor the sacrifice of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew throwing a rock onto a pile on the deployment site is more than that Godforsaken piece of hell on earth deserves.

          Can you imagine how impressive that funeral cairn would look like after a few years? It really appeals to my Norseman blood and heritage!. What a magnificent way to honor our Granite Mountain Hotshots.

          Take the statues to town and pose them beside Bucky O’Neil on the plaza. We should honor the bravery (however misplaced) of our crew like MEN (non-gender specific)!

          P.S. Take the statue of the lookout and cut it’s fucking head off and weld it to its ass!

          Reply

  5. Part 1

    Open email (This is a draft only, comment on or email me anything you think I should add) to Arizona State Representative Karen Fann regarding the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board and Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial Park.

    Please allow me to give you an Executive Summary of the current problem with the direction the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board is going in just in case you don’t have time to read my entire email. I know you are a very busy representative of the people and I really get down in the weeds with some specific recommendations.

    EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

    The Arizona State Legislature ceded the authority to manage the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park (hereafter referred to as the Park) to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (hereafter referred to as the Board). The Board is now managing this publicly owned resource in an arbitrary, capricious and selective manner based on the whims of the Board, most of whom are private citizens.

    Furthermore, future access now appears to be under the direction of one specific board member… Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh. I believe that it is apparent that Mrs. Beno Marsh is neither qualified nor emotionally fit to be making decisions whether or not I get to visit the new state park to honor the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    I don’t want to stand on a hill overlooking the what has come to be known as the deployment site. I want to visit the same Park that thousands of firefighters, extended families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guests get to visit. Although I personally think the actual deployment site itself should be fenced off and no one should go walking around inside that enclosure.

    At a recent hearing Mrs. Beno Marsh make a number of disturbing statements that I believe very much call into question her fitness to have the lead in managing my access to the Park and in fact, I think these statements should disqualify her for that job. This hearing took place in the courtroom of Prescott Judge Arthur Markham on January 8, 2015, in the matter of a request for an injunction against harassment filed a week earlier by Ms. Amanda Beno-Marsh against Ms. Joy A. Collura.

    Perhaps most disturbing is the fact that Mrs. Marsh did not make the following verbatim statements extemporaneously, these statements were read from a PREPARED WRITTEN STATEMENT under oath to Judge Markham.

    “I am trying to protect the closure area and deployment site, and I am trying to put my world back together.”

    “I am a fragile widow of a national tragedy.”

    “I was married to the golden boy… and everyone seems to want a piece of him…”

    “Psychics in the closure area and in and around the deployment site trying to contact Eric and my friends… or crazy conspiracy theories.”

    “As Eric’s spouse… I should be allowed the dignity of not having to have that nonsense [psychics and mediums] around me… that she contacts me and tells me about her psychic… who calls herself “the lady of the dead”. How offensive is that?”

    “My husband DIED there.”

    “His was a scary ending… and very brutal… and it hurts me and horrifies me.”

    “It is a sacred place to me… and that is why I fight to protect the site.”

    I have included the entire transcript from this proceeding as an attachment to this email so you can read these statements in their entirety and context.

    Although psychics and mediums are probably not a very big part of your base, I think they are entitled to the same rights and privileges as every other citizen of this country…don’t you? And if I were a medium I would contact our founding fathers and ask them how they feel about this issue. What do you think they would say? And if I were a psychic, I would look into the future of anyone who violated the constitutional rights and discriminates against U.S. citizens based on whether or not they were psychics or mediums in an official capacity and I predict I would see problems ahead for those people…maybe from the ACLU or a like minded organization.

    And I do have some good news for Mrs. Beno Marsh…I do not want a piece of “the golden boy”, I just want the same access to the Park that thousands of other people have. It’s really a pretty simple request.

    I do know a little bit about personal trauma in my life. My father was killed in an underground uranium mine when he was crushed by heavy equipment and knocked down a very deep mine shaft in 1958. Given the frantic demand for large quantities of uranium this country needed at the time to produce thousands of nuclear bombs to protect us from the very real threat posed to our nation by the Soviet Union. And given the lack of safety standards to protect the men who dug the uranium from the earth, I think my father was a national hero as well…wouldn’t you agree?

    I believe my mother was entitled to her privacy as a private citizen following his death because she did not present herself as a public figure on a mission to turn the site of his death into a private memorial site using public funds. Mrs. Beno Marsh has forfeited that same right.

    Reply

    • Part 2

      The arrogance of the Board is astonishing and is only surpassed by their naivety. But don’t worry, I am going to give you and them much of the guidance you so desperately need…pro bono. After all, you and so many others paid for all of my training and experience and I deeply appreciate your efforts. So, consider this is a small return on your investment and not an application for a consulting position…you can’t afford me.

      Most of this post is part of my on-line resume building to back up my opinions with my work history. If you already believe that I am a Subject Matter Expert (SME) in any area I claim to be…please skip most of this because it will bore you.

      I want to get out in front of this subject because I guarantee you that monitoring and protecting the GMH Memorial State Park is going to be a nightmare and a black hole for man hours. When I was working for the BLM (Washington Office) as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) I worked out of the BLM Arizona State Office in Phoenix, for two different periods from 1992-1997 and 2003-2006. During my first years (5 that seemed like 50) there, there was a BLM Special Agent assigned full time to dealing with hazardous waste dumping on BLM lands in Arizona, which comprises some 15 million acres.

      BUT…most of the dumping occurred around the Phoenix Metropolitan area because that is where the people are and there is a lot of BLM land around Phoenix. So the biggest problem associated with hazardous waste dumping were the bad guys who would strip thousands of dollars worth of copper wire from commercial buildings and in the process do hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of damage to the facilities that they would then sell to metal scrap yards.

      A few years ago while living in northern Arizona I saw news programs where this was still occurring in the Valley Of The Sun and the news stories were specific to copper wire being torn out of area lighting at city parks. It is almost impossible to believe that there are those people out there who are willing to work that hard, and do that much damage, for so little in return. But they are out there.

      The problem for the BLM came when these same individuals would take the insulated copper wire out to the desert surrounding Phoenix, make a big pile out of it, pour accelerants on it and burn all of the insulation and other material off the copper wire itself. Pretty stupid…right?

      They would then take the copper wire to one of the recycling centers and sell it for a few pennies a pound leaving behind a hazardous waste site that needed to be cleaned up according to EPA standards. The problem was so bad and so destructive that the Phoenix Police Department hosted an interagency task force just to deal with this problem, to which the BLM Special Agent who specialized in investigating hazardous waste cases was assigned as a member.

      While I was the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest (which comprises approximately 3 million acres of land in New Mexico), part of my job with a few other officers was to do my best to put a band aid on the equivalent of a sucking chest wound to try and stem the illegal use of National Forest Land.

      This illegal use included the wholesale and commercial removal of forest products which included but was not limited to the following illegal activities, logging, cutting down trees for fire wood, vigas & latillas for Spanish style buildings and Christmas Trees, removal of boulders to be used for landscaping and commercial building, marijuana grows, methamphetamine manufacturing and clandestine runways for drug smuggling and tens of thousands of known archeological sites that were periodically looted for artifacts and just about anything else you can think of to make money either from forest products or by using National Forest Land.

      To try and get a handle on problems like these, I got heavily involved very early in my law enforcement career in the remote sensing and monitoring of areas by heavily using electronic monitoring equipment. This was due to limited manpower and budgets the size and the remoteness of the area I was responsible. My experience included ground breaking work very early because of my personal interest in, and fascination of…gadgets.

      My experience included extensive work with the Spartan, Qualtron, and Teleonics corporations just to name some of the major players in the industry where I received training in how to use their equipment at their factories. I was also heavily involved with the Sandia National Laboratories on the Kirkland Air Force Base in Albuquerque because they were taking the lead in a “swords to plowshares” program. This program used their scientists to develop commercial application for gadgets. This technology was then given to private industry to mass produce for profit. My experience using this type of technology continued throughout my drug interdiction work and other investigations for the remainder of my career.

      Two years after I retired, the military and a federal agency hosted a national interagency summit to discuss the status and the way forward for the use of remote sensing and monitoring near Washington D.C., in Shepherdstown, West Virginia. I was asked to attend this summit as a nationally recognized SME and to represent my former agency. My expenses were paid by the sponsoring agency.

      To make a long story short…I am an expert in the acquisition, application and deployment of remote site electronic monitoring systems. I also know how crazy people out there are and the lengths they will go to and the things they will do to acquire scrap metal defies all logic. And that is not even considering the fact that these metal statues that are being proposed may actually be worth something as art, although finding a buyer will be problematic but not an insurmountable challenge for the people I am talking about. They will steal it just because they can and for no other conceivable purpose.

      The monitoring of remote sites using electronic equipment can work under some very specific conditions and with a lot of luck. Sometimes the luck comes simply because in the process of maintaining the sensor network, law enforcement is more focused on the area and may randomly catch somebody in the act of vandalism. And based on my experience, the real value of sensors and cameras comes after somebody is caught by suing them. Then the word gets out the entire area is bugged by the government and is being monitored by satellites to people who are used to watching fantastical things on movies and TV. Therefore, by catching one bad guy you will stop a thousand from even thinking about trying the same thing. Here are the conditions under which a sensor and camera monitoring network can work;

      1. Acquire the right equipment from a major manufacturer. It won’t be cheap, but it will be far less expensive than buying similar equipment from a start up that won’t still be in business when you need replacement parts, maintenance, or to add on your current network. I think given the location etc., that company will be Telonics in Mesa, Arizona, but it will probably require somebody to do some creative sole source purchasing.

      2. Field a highly trained team to professionally install and then maintain the right equipment. This needs to be done covertly during off hours. The right equipment needs to be constantly maintained because weather can expose it or animals can dig it up…and then it will be stolen. I know, that has happened to me more than once. The batteries also have a shorter life than the installers will like, especially after the equipment starts recording a lot of false positives.

      3. The right equipment needs to be constantly monitored…24/7, every day of the year.

      4. There needs to be a response team to check positive hits. And given the size of the area and the variety of access points, there will probably need to be more than one response team to adequately cover the area. Everyone participating in the installation, monitoring or response to this equipment needs to be prepared to deal with a lot of false positive hits, no matter how good your equipment is, or how professionally it is installed…a lot of false hits are inevitable.

      Hey…all I can say is that I had a relatively long career, especially under the circumstances and I have always had to deal with Adult Attention Deficit Disorder, I hated to be in an office, and I liked to get involved in a lot of things. In other words…I always went out looking for trouble, and sometimes I found it.

      Reply

      • Part 3

        Your Board lacks two very important and key components. The first is one is a senior Park Ranger who has been on the job for a long time to tell you I am right. And the second is a representative from the Yavapai County Sherriff’s Office to tell you everything they can’t afford to do for you because they lack both the manpower and the budget to provide a private security force for the Park. And if the Board is already consulting with senior rangers, they need to start listening to them.

        I really do think however, that the Board needs to scale back on their unrealistic and grandiose plans, “harden” the targets of opportunity they do keep, or move their entire project to the plaza around the Yavapai Courthouse in downtown Prescott or out to Station 7 so the investment everybody else is going to make in their personal pet project can be protected and managed. Several people on Investigative Media have discussed making a simple monument out at the site that I really like. Ask visitors to add a rock to a pile in memory of the Granite Mountain Hotshots out of their respect for them and their sacrifice. Move the statues and interpretive plaques to town so you can maintain and protect them.

        Have you ever been to any kind of interpretive park that has displays in unattended locations that haven’t been vandalized? I haven’t. And I have been to a lot of them and none of them were anywhere near as remote and isolated as the Park is going to be.

        There are only two kinds of displays in these parks, those that been vandalized and those that will be vandalized. I don’t know why there are so many very stupid and very bad people out there who do very stupid and very bad things, but there are.

        These people didn’t respect OUR GMIHC when they were alive, they sure as hell don’t respect their memory. They can’t…they don’t even respect themselves.

        The Board has always been confused by what one of their real problems is and it isn’t the people like me who care, their problem is that precious few other people do care. Don’t look now, but the tragedy that befell the GMIHC is already a footnote in history. The world has moved on. And to a great extent, the wildland firefighting community has moved on. They have already had new disasters and there are more on the way! The Yarnell Hill Fire is yesterday’s news.

        And speaking of what one of the Board’s very real problem’s is, it is not people who wanting to go to the site, their problem is that very few people WILL go to the site after the newness wears off. The Board’s best day will be the day of the Parks dedication and it will be all downhill from there. Another one of their very real problems is not the good citizens your law will turn away from the Park and discourage from even making the steep and very long trek through some God forsaken country.

        The good people will obey your signs and either not go up there or turn around at the top when you tell them to. The real problem is the bad people who will pause at your signs only long enough to deface them…if they don’t just tear them down. The Boards planned very expensive and beautiful statues will be defaced and vandalized, it’s only a question of when if not stolen outright. What are they thinking? They are setting themselves up for another very expensive heartbreak.

        So…here is what they need to do, encourage as many good people as possible to go down to the deployment site. They want good people there as often as they can get them there. They can call them “site stewards” or “site monitors”, but whatever they call them, they need as many of them as they can get there to keep an eye on things and report to the authorities any bad things they have see just as quickly as they can, so corrective and enforcement action can be taken as quickly as possible.

        Although I might be wrong about ANYONE turning away regardless of what the signs say. Maybe they already got the answer they needed from Board member Darrell Willis. Mr. Willis stated there will be no way to keep people out of the area who want to go and pay their respects to the fallen… people will still go and there will still have be a problem. What comes next to satisfy the Widows need to have a private memorial site at taxpayer expense. Armed guards 24/7?

        So maybe you should do the hard job people elected you to do for the people, we are after all, a representative democracy, and you are the representative for all of the people, not just the area ranchers. Take steps to take the land needed to create a manageable Park through Imminent Domain.

        I remember when the State Route 51 (SR 51), also known as the Piestewa Freeway was called the little road that goes up through Dreamy Draw. If you followed that little road, it took you to a relatively isolated and sleepy part of the Valley of the Sun called Paradise Valley (Phoenix). I was also living in Paradise Valley and working at Central and Van Buren in downtown Phoenix at the time.

        Then the politicians who get paid to represent ALL of the people made some really hard decisions that tore apart the lives of tens of thousands of residents of that area. They took the land needed to build the Piestewa Freeway from the people who owned it, some of them had owned it and lived there for decades through Eminent Domain because that was the best thing to do for the majority of people and for the future growth of the Phoenix metropolitan area and Arizona in general.

        I think you should do the same thing to provide for greater access by vehicle to the deployment site. And as a side benefit for the state, it will give the state parks department a fighting chance to manage and protect our new Park. Ignore what the objections of Mr. Rex Maughan who has a net worth of more than 600 million dollars. None of us asked for this tragedy to occur near his precious ranch consisting of hundreds of thousands of acres of land that will not be affected by you doing the right thing.

        The following are some excerpts from the email I received from you on October 1, 2015.

        You said, “The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site.”

        And I say, “I don’t want to develop the site, build a home or even a water tower out there. I want to visit the deployment site to pay my respects to the Granite Mountain Hotshots. In addition to the fact that I should be able to visit any publicly funded state park firefighters, the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and all of their guest can any time I want to under normal operating hours.”

        You said, “The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak).”

        And I say, “Your statement implies that since the park land was purchased with general fund dollars and the monies went to the Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) that somehow public money was not spent to purchase the land or that even though public money was used to purchase the land, it really doesn’t count as an expenditure since it went from one state government agency to another. This is flawed logic and should not be used by those who are managing taxpayer money. General fund dollars are still tax dollars right? Those aren’t dollars the state got from the “Widows” are they…to create a private memorial site? ”

        You said, “The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.”

        And I say, “This statement implies this matter is out of your hands and in fact was never in your hands since others are responsible for appointing the Board. Do you think that I or anyone else will ever believe that? That falls into the category of “how stupid do you think I am?” Wait…don’t answer that. I will answer it for you, I am not that stupid. You have been controlling everything from day one and your fingerprints are all over everything that has happened pertaining to the Board and the Park.”

        You said, “There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations.”

        And I say, “Donations to pay for improvements are still coming from the public…right? Do the people know that most of them will not even be allowed to visit the STATE PARK, except from afar and not be able to get anywhere near the deployment site? Or will these donors get exemptions to go to the deployment site just like all of the other thousands of exemptions the Board is currently planning on handing out? How much do I need to contribute to get a free pass to go to the deployment site. Has the Board assigned a specific number yet?”

        You said, “The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.”

        And I say, “Great. I want to see them up close just like all of the firefighters, extended family members and all of their guests are able to. And I hope to see them before they are defaced and stolen.”

        You said, “My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;”

        And I say, “Your thinking is so seriously flawed I hardly know where to start. The deployment site is not a “grave” site. No one is buried there. The deployment site is no more of a grave site and is no more sacred that the pit where my father died or anyone else’s loved ones have died on a public highway or any other public place. Get real!

        You said, “I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist.”

        And I say, “What…none of the thousands of firefighters, their families, friends and other guests; the extended family members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their friends and other guests in addition to all of the other people who will gave automatic exemptions…people like you and Arizona Governor Doug Ducey, and your friends, family and other guests are handicapped, will ever need to use a bathroom, or have the potential to have a medical emergency? Once again…you and YOUR Board need to get real!

        You said, “Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.”

        And I say, “Yavapai County maintenance money is still public money whichever pot it comes out of. The small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who want a private memorial site paid for with public will NOT be paying for the maintenance of their special place…right?”

        Reply

        • P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

          Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 25, 2015 at 6:56 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> P.S. Don’t worry about all of the typos and grammatical
            >> mistakes, I will catch most of them over the next couple
            >> of days. Let’s focus on the big picture.

            The ‘big picture’ ( regardless of the known shenanigans that have been taking place ) is still “Will any member of the PUBLIC be allowed to get anywhere near the actual ‘deployment site’ at this PUBLIC park?”

            Well… 14 hours ago… we got a ‘glimpse’ of the ‘answer’ ( but still not the full story ).

            The ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” held its last meeting just about 48 hours ago on Friday afternoon, October 23, 2015.

            THIS time… at least one person from the media attended and we now DO have a ‘report’ ( sorta / kinda ) of what went on at this last meeting.

            Apparently… Amanda Marsh DID complete her ‘unsupervised’ informal ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’ which was meant to be the big determining factor with regards to ‘public access to the park’ and what that was/will ultimately ‘look like’.

            And it DOES appear that some level of sanity has ‘ruled the day’.

            Amanda Marsh (apparently) reported that ( of course ) SOME of the family members wanted full-blown FENCING ( with razor wire? ) and a LOCKED GATE around the deployment site… and that at least ONE of the ‘families’ ( Zuppiger ) would have preferred if nothing at all was done to the site ( no crosses, nothing ).

            But ( also apparently ) it seems obvious now that MOST of the family members realize that the PUBLIC has every right to get as close to the deployment site as they have always been allowed to get… but as the article below proves… there are still some ‘games’ being played here with the ‘design’.

            The article that just appeared 14 hours ago explains what happened… but there are still no detailed minutes from either this latest meeting OR from the LAST one ( which was the one where Amanda Marsh was supposed to have presented her ‘informal polling’ results ).

            It looks like the public WILL be allowed to get ‘near’ the actual deployment site… but the actual MARBLE crosses ( yes… we’ve gone from simple wooden crosses to actual cemetery-like MARBLE crosses ) will be ‘protected’ by 19 small retaining walls made of JAGGED ROCK and ( possibly ) connected by access-preventing CHAINS or landscaping.

            At the top of the following article about last Friday’s meeting is an actual photo of the architect showing everyone what these ’19 walls of JAGGED ROCK’ are going to look like… and how they will be surrounding the actual 19 MARBLE CROSSES and meant to discourage/prevent access to the actual crosses.

            The Prescott Daily Courier
            Article Title: ‘Conceptual’ design OK’d for Hotshot memorial
            Published: 10/25/2015 6:02:00 AM by Scott Orr
            http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=151189

            From the article…
            ——————————————————————
            Photo Caption: Architect Bill Gauslow describes the memorial he designed for the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            PRESCOTT – The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board on Friday, Oct. 23, approved what it called a “conceptual” design for a monument to the 19 fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            The Hotshots were killed on state trust lands just west of Yarnell while battling the Yarnell Hill wildfire on June 30, 2013.

            Since the State Parks Department won its bid to buy the land for a memorial park in June, there have been discussions among many concerned parties, including the families of all 19 firefighters, about how they should be honored at the site where they died.

            Friday, architect Bill Gauslow presented his design to the board. It consists of 19 white marble crosses, each placed where a man fell, surrounded by 19 low walls, spaced a short distance apart, and built of rip-rap rock.

            The wall-or any means of restricting access to the crosses-has been the most contentious part of the plan.

            Gauslow said some families would have preferred a fence with a locked gate, but he wasn’t happy with that idea, calling it “a little crude.”

            “We think of this as the best solution, because it is the most intimate,” he said, noting that the jagged nature of rip-rap would likely keep most people out.

            “It acts as a way of telling the people, ‘Well, you can see the names, but why go in there?'” he said, calling it a “subliminal” tactic.

            A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.

            Amanda Marsh, widow of crew leader Eric Marsh, said Gauslow had done an “awesome” job of educating the families about his plans.

            Marsh noted that one family, the survivors of firefighter Garret Zuppiger, would have preferred that nothing at all was built at the site.

            But, as several board members said, there was consensus among the families that this plan would be the most appropriate.

            Other elements will include interpretive materials at the parking lot, which will be important, because, as State Forester Jeff Whitney pointed out, “a fairly high percentage of visitors” will likely not go any further than that.

            There will be markers every tenth of a mile along the 1.9-mile trail that leads from the lot to an overlook of the memorial site, and each marker will feature one of the firefighters.

            Arizona State Parks Director Sue Black said the entire project would end up costing about $2 million, most of which is expected to come from donations.
            ——————————————————————

            SUMMARY: Since we still can’t see the meeting minutes and this reporting was ‘Twitter style’ and minimal information… it’s worth pointing out that there are still a lot of ‘assumptions’ here.

            It would APPEAR that this Board is going to allow the PUBLIC to go down to the deployment site… but there is still no OFFICIAL word about that. AZ Forester Whitney seems to be saying (happily?) that the self-limiting factor will be the hike itself and that by the time people reach that spot up on the ridge where they can only say “Oh… look… honey… see those little crosses way down there? That must be where that big-bad-fire came right after those poor men and killed them”… that MOST people will be so fucking TIRED by then that they won’t even bother trying to go down to the site.

            And there is still no word if there will even be any kind of TRAIL leading ‘down there’ to help any member of the public accomplish that feat.

            It’s still all just about the ‘trail’ coming in from Highway 89 and how THAT is where there will be all these ‘informational kiosks’ and whatnot.

            So there is still a LOT that isn’t known yet about what the ACTUAL ‘public access’ to this park is going to look like.

            And something tells me that ( even though it violates Arizona Law ) we are NEVER going to see the ACTUAL ‘minutes’ of this latest meeting… nor will we ever see the minutes of the PREVIOUS meeting held on September 18, 2015.

            Reply

            • Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with my email to Fann under the assumption that I am not going to be allowed to go to the site since that was the last official word I head from the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands of other people are allowed to go to the site according to the arbitrary and capricious rules established by the Board.

              Reply

              • Reply to Gary Olson post on
                October 25, 2015 at 8:55 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> Great info, but FYI, I am going to proceed with
                >> my email to Fann under the assumption that
                >> I am not going to be allowed to go to the site
                >> since that was the last official word I head from
                >> the Yarnell Fire Chief of all people, while thousands
                >> of other people are allowed to go to the site
                >> according to the arbitrary and capricious rules
                >> established by the Board.

                And I think you should. ANYONE has the right to write to elected officials anytime they want… about anything they want… and to also ask hard questions. It comes with the JOB.

                There are some FACTS in your proposed email that ‘this Board’ needs to hear… especially regarding the ‘pretense’ that this is actually some kind of ‘cemetery’. The new MARBLE crosses are NOT ( in my opinion ) appropriate and are a step in the wrong direction regarding that ‘issue’ alone.

                And until you hear from this BOARD about what the REAL RULES for the ‘public’ are going to be ( which I, believe, is exactly what Chief Ben Palm told you to do in writing )… and some assurances are given that there won’t actually be claymore mines IN or IN-BETWEEN these jagged-rock retaining walls… then there could still be ‘access policies’ being put in place that they want to hide from the public until the very last minute and ‘surprise’ everyone.

                We seem to know for a fact now that SOME of the family members ( and I think we can all guess who SOME of the SOME are ) don’t give one flying fuck if anyone who has actually PAID for this public park ever gets to access the most interesting ( and historic ) parts of it.

                So until we see some sort of OFFICIAL announcement about what the ‘access rules’ will be for this PUBLIC park… those ‘family members’ ( and people actually on the Board who support their viewpoint ) might still be influencing the process in ways that shouldn’t be allowed.

                I don’t know if it’s worth pointing out in your email… but beyond the fact that this Board has always been breaking Arizona Law by NOT publishing ‘minutes’ in a timeframe established by Arizona Open Meetings Laws… the actual blurd they publish at the bottom of each of their agendas is also a total crock of shit.

                At the bottom of even the latest ‘agenda’ for the October 23 meeting is the following ‘blurb’ pointing out all the places where this Arizona PUBLIC Board was REQUIRED to also be posting the ‘meeting notice’ and the ‘agenda’…

                It (actually) says this…

                ———————————————-
                G. ADJOURNMENT

                Pursuant to Title II of the American with Disabilities Act (ADA), Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board does not discriminate on the basis of a disability regarding admission to public meetings. Persons with a disability may request reasonable accommodation by contacting Arizona State Parks at (602) 542-4174. Requests should be made as early as possible to allow time to arrange the accommodation.

                SIGNED: Sue Black, Chairman

                ( This Agenda has been ) Posted at….

                Arizona State Parks 1300 W. Washington Street
                Phoenix, AZ and h t t p ://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

                Arizona State Forestry Division 1110 W. Washington Street #110 Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://azsf.az.gov

                Arizona State Capitol 1700 W. Washington Street Phoenix, AZ and w w w.azleg.gov

                Arizona Department of Administration 100 N. 15th Ave. Phoenix, AZ and h t t p s ://doa.az.gov/meeting-notices
                ———————————————-

                Complete crock of shit.

                The ONLY place that ‘Meeting Notice’ and the accompanying AGENDA was ( or is even now ) posted was on the FIRST website mentioned… the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Advisory Board website at Arizona State Parks.

                There actually is a prescribed ‘remedy’ in the Arizona Public Boards and Arizona Open Meeting Laws regarding what should happen with any Arizona Public Board that continues to violate those laws.

                The ‘solution’ ( as per Arizona Law ) is for that PUBLIC Board to cease operation and be disbanded.

                Reply

                • Thank you for agreeing with me. And in other words, I just don’t have the energy or the interest to wait to and possibly re-write my entire email based on the new information.

                  Karen Fann can accept my email in the spirit it was written, or she can print it out…roll it up into a little ball…and shove it up her ass. I think the end result will be the same regardless so I don’t really give a fuck.

                  Besides, I already put my self flagellation whip away for the night and I don’t want to get it out again.

                  I don’t know how you do it, you really put some time into this project compared to me, and I put way too much of my life into it. WTF…Over?

                  Reply

                  • I just think it’s fascinating that the very guy you corresponded with, and who is the HEAD of the ‘access’ subcommittee for this PUBLIC park, appears to be the one who is STILL coming up with the ‘ideas’ for LIMITING access to places in this PUBLIC park.

                    According to the Daily Courier article… it was Chief Ben Palm himself still offering ways to ‘limit access’ even at the last meeting…

                    “A chain might be placed between the wall segments, or desert vegetation could be used, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm said.”

                    I still think claymore mines would get the job done as far as Ben Palm and some of the family members are concerned… but they probably don’t actually have the money for that.

                    Reply

                    • Ya, good point, and of course I really do give a fuck but I can only blog about it.

                      I was so frustrated I have already sent my revised email to Fann, but I may send an addendum with your suggestion just for the hell of it.

                      I may even get some more suggestions.

  6. And as usual I am probably assuming everyone knows what I am talking about when I gave my opinion in response to Marti’s question below.

    “Clinging to their Guns and their God” was a statement made by President Obama to describe blue collar workers to a group of rich left wing intelligentsia at a private fund raising event in San Francisco (I think) that was secretly recorded. It was not one of his finest moments.

    I could have also have answered Marti’s question by simply saying that I think most wildland firefighters come from rural areas in the Western United States and therefore tend to be very conservative and center right republican types.

    I also should point out that I believe the republicans would not have been able to give away the candy store to the richest of the rich over the past 40 years if the fucking democrats had not helped them because they too have been in pockets of Wall Street, big banks, the filthy rich, etc.

    And as I have also repeatedly stated, I already have my piece of the pie, it’s the rest of you I am worried about. Somebody needs to fix it. Democratic Socialist Bernie Sanders for President? Now he would be a hoot representing the U.S. on the world stage!

    Reply

  7. **
    ** Grant Scott McKee ( Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee’s father )
    ** rips author Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On The Burning Edge”.

    >> Reply to Gary Olson post on October 22, 2015 at 9:44 pm
    >>
    >> We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t
    >> read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second
    >> book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical
    >> consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even
    >> bigger crock of bullshit.

    Speaking of ‘books full of bullshit’… just 48 hours ago, Grant Scott McKee, the FATHER of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant Quinn Mckee, ripped author ( and former Hotshot ) Kyle Dickman a new one regarding his book “On the Burning Edge”.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of an article about that Kle Dickman book that appeared back in May of this year over on Bill Gabbert’s ‘Widlfire Today’ site.

    It’s even worse than I thought ( The bullshit in Dickman’s book ).

    Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.

    The book actually BEGINS by detailing his son’s first day at work with Granite Mountain.

    But Dickman never, ever spoke to Mr. McKee. Not once. Not even to tell him he was even working on a book that would feature his son or to even verify the ‘stories’ he was going to tell about his son as if they were FACTS.

    Mr. McKee’s comments just appeared at the bottom of the following article…

    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/05/25/errors-in-a-review-of-a-book-about-the-yarnell-hill-fire/

    And here is what Mr. McKee had to say just 48 hours ago…

    ——————————————————————————————————
    Grant Scott McKee on October 20, 2015 at 4:31 pm said:

    Well , this comment might come pretty late in the game people, but I’m the father and the uncle of 2 of the members in that crew of 19 heros.

    I’m Grant Quinn Mckee’s dad……Grant Scott McKee.

    It has taken me along time to finish the book ( at 2-3 pages a day), because it’s that painful.

    I was never contacted by Mr. Dickman . I had no knowledge he was writing such a book, and as most people can see, he used my son as the focal point in the story line. The first 2 words in the book , chapter1, is my son and my name.

    The story should have had more about ALL 20 guys in the crew, and he definitely took liberties on the events of the history of my sons life.

    My son was NEVER a latch key kid and that was quit offensive.

    Furthermore, May 18th was his birthday , so he was only 21 years old for less than 6 weeks at the time of the accident.

    Mr. Dock man stated that my son work as a busboy/ waiter before taking on the new job as a Hotshot, as well as was a bartender. My son was not yet old enough to make drinks and he knew obsolete lay nothing about being a bartender.

    That’s just a few things, as there are many more details that are not factual.

    One would think that if a person is going to write about someuone’s child, that they would take the time to ask the people who raised him. My sons life was not hard for him growing up as he portrayed it to be. He had a few moments that were difficult, but nothing out of the ordinary for most children in today’s world. He was well taken care of and loved. And he was well aware of how much he was loved. He never wanted for anything.

    Lastly …. I will add that it’s pretty much a no class move that he never even sent a copy to the families he wrote about.

    I guess that says a lot about his compassion and appreciation for making a living on this tragity and disrespecting the families by add lobbing on his facts. There is a word for that… A few words come to mind….. Cheap , selfish, and stupid.

    Dope should be more careful about what they say and write, cause once in awhile , they are the chance of offending the wrong type of people who are not so friendly under these conditions. You know what I’m sayin?

    Thanks to all that took the time to read this novel. I do apologize.
    ——————————————————————————————————

    And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

    SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself, Holly Neill and Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 5:18 pm, Bill Gabbert said…
    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, Mr. McKee — and I am sorry for your loss.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 6:42 pm, Pat Byrnes said…
    Some still respect your son’s service and sacrifice and still hope some lessons from Yarnell will be learned and heeded. We can only hope to reduce the number of families suffering in the future. I am sorry that reckless writing hurt your family again, Mr. McKee.

    * On October 20, 2015 at 11:11 pm, Holly Neill said…
    Thank you Mr. McKee. It is good to hear your voice. I am sorry about this additional grief.

    * On October 23, 2015 at 11:37 am, MartyH said…
    I just came across this discussion today. Not knowing whether anyone else will read it doesn’t stop me from wanting to leave a couple of comments. Re: Halt/reduction in controlled burning on National Forest lands. The budget reductions to the USDA Forest Service each year from 1980 to 1988 were primary reasons for curtailing prescribed fire work. I left the fuels management position (GS-462) on the LPF SBRD and went to work as a dispatcher in 1980. Re Yarnell fire behavior and weather: The RAWS data for the nearest station to the Yarnell was available for anyone to view online on the day of the fatalities and afterward. The RAWS date for the prior days was also posted online. I hope that that data has been reviewed by everyone who writes about the incident. Four WX parameters stand out; Wind speed, wind direction, temperature and solar radiation. The changes in those four changed in the same pattern each of the two days before and on the day of the fatality incident. I didn’t copy and save the charts but they were so significant I remember them very well.

    Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed. Shortly after that the solar radiation measured by the RAWS dropped abruptly. It seems very likely to me that the RAWS was located where the smoke column from the fire shifted in the afternoon to obscure the panel – causing the reduction in solar radiation recorded by the instruments. Given two previous days of shifts in rate of spread and direction of fire spread at the same period of the afternoon every firefighter should have been aware of the dangers on the day of the fatalities. I’m terrifically saddened by the tragic loss of firefighters lives – especially in a situation that I feel was so completely unnecessary and preventable.

    Reply

    • Thanks for reminding us that the GMHS crew and the Yarnell fire bosses would have known the dangerous weather conditions and their afternoon change of direction the previous two days before. The pattern was there so it leaves unanswered questions concerning why they would attempt a suicide mission by dropping off into that brush.

      A couple things I ought to mention here–When I saw the raging fire I was adamant to leave the area and head to the west side of the mountains for safety reasons. Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life. The route she wanted to take would have been on the south rim of that basin and she believed she would have had time to beat the fire advance if it changed–I think instead she was of a mind that it would not change. I left her there and topped the ridge and at that time already felt the wind change albeit a light breeze. It was something you could not feel down lower where she was but I realized I better go back and drag her out of there. That afterall turned out to be the same place on the two track the GMHS descended. Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. It was apparent that she did not recognize the danger she was in. Should that wind change pick up in velocity it would come up that canyon and even running uphill on the two track trail one would likely not succeed in escaping. PVC pipe that was standing in a support of rock in he middle of that unused two track actually melted down and that pink ribbon I found near the center of the two track looked like a meteorite and in fact that is what entered my mind when I picked it up. I could only identify it after it partially crumbled and exposed the interior pink color. Being on it would have been like being next the grader where Donut thought to deploy–the grader itself had its floor plate turned blue and the tires burned off, yet there was more clearing there than the two track. Fortunately for us we did have an earlier start than the GMHS and I could see the way that fire was eating and its dangerous proximity to where we were. I am glad that my insistence that Joy get herself together and move out with me worked. When later Dr. Ted Putnam explained how difficult it was to convince a couple young firefighters from taking orders from radio transmissions to go down into an area that would have killed them I understood how easily people not acquainted with how weather and uphill fire advances can cause a fire to quickly over take people.

      A second thing that I had experienced earlier and why Joy and I argued very near where the men died. Early that morning we were there and the shortest route was straight up to the two track. I wanted to get out of that manzanita patch as quickly as possible. At that time the fire was still high on the mountain in the boulders and about two miles from us working slowly down the mountain hindered by the rocky terrain and much sparser vegetation. I allowed that one mainly to teach Joy a lesson. Considering that we had left Oak Park #15 at 3:30 am, it took until 8;;:30am to break out at the track coming from Sesame Street that continued up to the two track. The route Joy chose and I followed continued around the north end of the ridge that makes up the basin. I figure it took us at least three and one half hours to go from just above Helms and through that brush to where we argued and went Joy’s way. Now the actual distance is not more than a mile and a half the way I estimate it. One walking should be able to go at a rate of 3mph, yet we were going at the rate of one mile in three hours. That gives you an estimate of how conditions were in that lower valley brush and something that every young fireman ought to experience before attempting to outrun a fire in that situation. One reason I strongly feel that should be a training field for young firemen –that would be a true memorial in honor of those by learning from and seeing the mistakes they made right on the site. It would be certain to save lives and give respect to safety rules if men were taught in that manner.

      Yes there is lots of bullshit from these early writings. I do hope men of knowledge and experience write and get published on this fire. I am strongly interested in what people of the wisdom of Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, Dr. Ted Putnam and the likes would write. They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. They have no superiors and walk on their own merits. These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise.

      Reply

      • You learn so many things here on IM…yet when I want to learn jargon or fire terminology I have always appreciated going as well to Bill Gabbert’s website or Dr Ted Putnam or Moses and the Neil family since the fire.

        MY REPLY BELOW IN CAPS
        “Sonny says
        OCTOBER 24, 2015 AT 8:06 AM
        Joy being the hard head she was intended to take an alternative route that would have cost her life.” PLEASE WORLD FACTOR IN THAT THERE IS NEWS FOOTAGE THAT HAS PAUL SILVIA’S HOME ON FIRE AND THE TIMING TO THAT CAN HELP DETERMINE IF SONNY IS SPOT ON BUT YOU SEE THIS IS THE KIND OF THING I TOO HAVE BEEN GUILTY ON HERE SPEAKING ON PERCEPTIONS AND EMOTIONS AND FRUSTRATIONS AND SPEAKING TOO FAST AND PREMATURELY ON TOPICS VERSUS THOROUGHLY AND CAREFULLY LOOKING INTO IT BEFORE POSTING IT OR A HUGE ERROR ON MY PART IS I COULD OF WENT TO PERSON DIRECT BEFORE AIRING IT PUBLIC AND THAT I OWE A HUGE THANK YOU TO A FEMALE MEDIA PERSON FOR MAKING ME AWARE WHEN I ASKED ADVICE WHAT WAS BEST TO DO AND THE REPLY WAS BE DIRECT—IT WAS NOT UNTIL THAT MOMENT I REALIZED THAT IS USUALLY HOW I USE TO BE BUT NOT ALWAYS IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE YHF AND FOR THAT I AM VERY SORRY. I LOOK BACK AND I FEEL VERY BAD BY MY ACTIONS TOO. IT CAUSED HARM. IN THE FUTURE I WILL NOT POST UNLESS I CAN SEE HOW IT CAN HELP REACH CLARITY IN THE YHF. I WON’T EVEN POST I HAVE CRUCIAL INFORMATION UNLESS I CAN SHARE THE INFORMATION IN FULL COMPLETION. JOHN DOUGHERTY DOES HAVE THE LOCATION BUT NOT FULL NAME OF PERSON IN QUESTION. I WILL NOT SAY ANYTHING UNLESS IT IS “POSITIVE AND UPLIFTING” AND CAN NOT CAUSE ANYONE HARM OR DOUBTS…I JUST GET FRUSTRATED WHEN I GET FED BITS AND PIECES BUT FOR NOW I DO NOT WANT EVEN BITS AND PIECES—YOU NEED A PERSON TO RUN THINGS ACROSS—FINE BUT I WILL NOT EVEN MENTION YOUR NAME UNTIL WE COME TO THE CONCLUSION YOU ARE SET TO COME FORWARD. IT IS OBVIOUS THERE IS MORE INFORMATION OUT THERE BUT NOT GOING TO ENGAGE IN ANYMORE OF IT UNLESS WE CAN SHARE IT ALL PUBLIC. BY DOING IT I CAUSED PEOPLE TO HAVE MISJUDGMENTS AND I ALSO MISJUDGE IN THIS AND CREATED BARRIERS BASED ON LACK OF COMMUNICATION. THE PUBLIC DISPLAYS OVER TIME I DID TO HOLLY AND OTHERS WERE NOT ALWAYS APPROPRIATE AND I COULD OF CHOOSE TO STAY QUIET OR TRY HER/OTHERS DIRECT BUT I ALLOWED ME TO “FEEL” MY WAY VERSUS TRYING TO WORK THROUGH IT CREATING A BIGGER BARRIER—MY BARRIERS ARE KAPUT EVEN WITH SONNY. I JUST WANT TO PUT IT ALL BEHIND—FRESH SLATE—COME TO INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA TO SHARE NEW INFORMATION AND NO HALF ASS STUFF OR RIDDLES—I WILL WORK ON “ME” GARY OLSEN–K. BEING IN THE PUBLIC IS ALL NEW TO ME SO BEEN AN ODD TWO YEARS PLUS AND I MAKE BLUNDERS APPARENTLY. I FEEL VERY BLESSED TODAY TO HAVE AN AREA FILLED WITH LIGHT VERSUS A BURDEN.
        –
        Joy had her boots off enjoying the fireworks and resting. I DID HAVE MY BOOTS OFF AND WAS AT REST AS MY FEET SWELLED UP BUT I WAS NOT “ENJOYING” THE FIREWORKS JUST SONNY’S PERCEPTION FROM MY LACK OF EAGERNESS TO GET MOVING IN HIGH HEAT TEMP. AT 1:11PM AFTER ALL MY HIKES THAT WEEK.
        They are on top of this and not influenced by the sentimental mentality nor political and job pressures held over them by superiors. WELL COULD IT BE SONNY THEY ARE RETIRED TOO AND CAN HAVE MORE OF A PUBLIC VOICE VERSUS CURRENT ONES
        These are the ones who will educate and save future firefighters from disaster, and the ones we ought to recognize for their frank and honest expertise. THERE IS ALOT OF DIFFERENT KINDS OF FOLKS WHO CAN EDUCATE THE WORLD WITH EXPERTISE SONNY—WOOTEN AND MORRISON…MURRAY TAYLOR…JOHN MACLEAN…ALL THE CURRENT HIGHER UPS…ERIC SCHLETT…BOBBY HALTON…JENNIFER RADICS-JOHNSON…DANIEL CHACON…TRAVIS FORD…KODAS…JIM ROTH…DAVID TURBYFILL…HOLLY NEIL…ALOT…I KNOW ON THIS…WE ALL LEARN FROM OTHERS DIFFERENTLY SO JUST BECAUSE SONNY GRASPS WHAT GARY OR BOB SAYS AND NOT SAY ANOTHER…THAT IS SONNY YET I TEND TO FIND COMFORT AND EASE IN ASKING FERNANDA QUESTIONS AT TIMES—I TRUST HER ADVICE AND HER WISDOM AND SHE DELIVERS THINGS IN A WAY I GRASP IT. SHE IS A BLESSING. I DON’T ALWAYS KNOW HOW TO COMPREHEND INFORMATION I GET SO WHEN IT GETS PUBLIC IT MAY SEEM LIKE A RIDDLE AS GARY SAID YET NOT INTENTIONAL.
        YET WHY DO WE ALL COME TO I M?
        I COME TO HOPEFULLY READ NEW INFORMATION OR GIVE NEW INFORMATION AND FOUND MYSELF BE A TERRIBLE PERSON CALLING PEOPLE OUT WITHOUT DIRECTLY GOING TO THEM SO I LEARNED I CAN BE SUCH A SCHMUCK.
        I HOPE THE CORE TO I M IS SAFETY MATTERS—
        MAYBE WE CAN BECOME IN SOME SENSE AN ORGANIZED STRUCTURE LIKE ICS—
        AND I WILL MAKE MY FUTURE INVESTIGATIVE SEARCH IN RE-MAKING THE LIST OF THE AMOUNT OF DEATHS AND SONNY CAN WORK ON THE RETARDANT DEEPER…WE ALL HAVE A PART IN THIS AFTERMATH OF THE YHF…I AM JUST GOING TO MAKE MY PART FROM THIS DAY FORWARD STRONGER IN BEING UPLIFTING- LESS RIDDLES AND MORE DIRECT…IT IS ALL A LEARNING EXPERIENCE…
        I MEAN BEFORE MEETING SONNY I MADE MY PLANS FOR THE DAY FOR WHAT I WANTED EVEN IF IT WAS TO HELP OTHERS—IT WAS STILL MY DAY MY WAY—AND WHEN I WENT ON THE TRAILS WITH SONNY IT BEGAN TO BE FOREIGN TO ME AND SO THAT HAS BEEN A LEARNING JOURNEY TOO YET HE IS A GENUINE GOOD MAN.

        I READ SOMEWHERE NOT SURE WHERE ABOUT DATA ON WEATHER THOSE 3 DAYS…SOME THINGS ARE PREDICTABLE LIKE SOME PEOPLE’S PERSONALITY TRAITS BUT NOT MOTHER NATURE MIXED WITH WEATHER—NOPE. SORRY…
        I CAN GO IN PREDICTING WITH CAUTION ALL DAY LONG…YET UNTIL MORE MISSING INFORMATION COMES FORWARD I WILL NOT SUPPORT MARSH AND STEED’S PART THAT DAY BECAUSE I HAVE A STRONG SENSE SOMEWHERE IN THAT RESTRICTED AREA IS EVIDENCE NOT YET FOUND ALONG WITH ALL THE MISSING ELEMENTS TOO NOT YET SURFACED. I KNOW WHERE TO LOOK TOO…JUST NOT GONNA UNTIL PEOPLE ARE ALLOWED…MAYBE IT WILL OPEN UP NEXT SUMMER BUT IT ALWAYS FLOORED ME HOW COME SAIT NEVER HIKED WITH US AND WITH OSHA WE NEVER GOT TO FULLY SHOW THE AREA LIKE WE WANTED TO—
        OKAY I SAID ENOUGH— GOOD NIGHT!

        ;

        Reply

    • Typo in the original comment above.

      I type ‘Dickman’ instead of ‘McKee’ at the start of THIS paragraph…

      “Mr. Dickman details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

      That paragraph SHOULD have read like this…

      “Mr. MCKEE details just SOME of the ‘bullshit’ that Dickman was slinging ( in his book ) regarding his son… who Dickman actually chose to make a CENTRAL CHARACTER in the book itself.”

      Reply

    • It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!

      It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

      I have a minutia-related question.

      You wrote:

      “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”

      How do you know that to be true?

      A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.

      I’m confused by this.

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 25, 2015 at 8:39 pm.

        >> Marti Reed said…
        >>
        >> It’s late and I’m exhausted, and I just read this. Thank you WTKTT!!
        >>
        >> It’s pretty clear that Kyle Dickman has an agenda (some of which
        >> I agree with) and that his agenda seems to have overtaken his
        >> commitment to the truth about what happened on this fire. His
        >> disrespect to the family of his central character is truly offensive.

        Well… that’s the ongoing story of this ‘still burning fire’, isn’t it?

        This is what happens when you have INVESTIGATORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional investigators… and AUTHORS with ‘agendas’ who don’t even know how to be professional authors.

        You end up with a LOT of ‘bullshit’ flying around… and other people who are still interested in the TRUTH ( like some public forums I know of ) just trying to keep the toilet paper rolling and make sense of the ‘published’ material.

        Speaking of ‘people who know how to investigate’. ( and do it for a living )…

        Did you know that part of the SETTLEMENT agreement between Arizona Forestry and ADOSH was that NONE of the ADOSH investigation material can ever be used in a ‘court of law’ if there ends up being further litigations against Arizona Forestry RE: the Yarnell Fire?

        That’s going to be hard to enforce if push comes to shove… but it’s just one more display of the absolute arrogance of Arizona Forestry to think they could even make that a ‘requirement’ as part of a ‘settlement’..

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> I have a minutia-related question.
        >>
        >> You wrote:
        >>
        >> “Pat Byrnes, a commenter using the name ‘MartyH’”
        >>
        >> How do you know that to be true?
        >>
        >> A couple of weeks back I discovered that Pat Byrnes lives in Albuquerque.
        >>
        >> I’m confused by this.

        There was a COMMA there after Pat Byrnes, and I wasn’t implying that the next named commenter ( MartyH ) WAS ‘Pat Byrnes’… but my bad. I worded that whole paragraph badly.

        I probably should have said it like this…

        ————————————————————–
        And in the last 48 hours there have been additional comments in response to Mr. McKee…

        SIDENOTE: In addition to the expected comments from Bill Gabbert himself,
        there have been THREE other ‘commenters’

        1) Holly Neill
        2) Pat Byrnes
        3) A commenter using the name ‘MartyH’

        Commenter ‘MartyH’ also added a detailed summary of the RAWS weather data that can/should have actually prevented this tragedy if anyone had been bothering to pay any attention. I thought this might actually be a comment coming from former Granite Mountain Hotshot Superintendent ( and Safety Officer at Yarnell ) Marty Cole… ( and maybe it actually is )… but Marty Cole’s middle initial appears to be ‘C’ and not ‘H’.
        ————————————————————–

        Also… I shouldn’t have hit ‘return’ and put a blank line before the last paragraph of that previous post.

        The entire last paragraph that begins with…

        “Each afternoon at roughly the same time each day the wind shifted almost 180 degrees and increased in speed…”

        …was not ME jumping back in with a comment. That entire paragraph that then goes on to talk about the RAWS weather data was still the commenter named ‘MartyH’ finishing his own comment(s) over there at Wildfire today.

        Reply

  8. One more loose thread I forgot about. Marti asked why so many wildland firefighters think President Nobama is an Obumma. Well…it is the same reason why there are so few African or Asian Americans and Metrosexuals fighting wildfire.

    Wildland firefighters come primarily (almost exclusively) from rural areas in the Western United States. You know…those areas where they cling to their Guns and their God and they don’t like having a Kenyan of the Muslim Faith who is a closet communist masquerading as a democratic socialist as the illegitimate Commander In-Chief and POTUS.

    I can legitimately use POTUS in a sentence because I rode in the Presidential Motorcade as the Departmental Representative with the presidential security detail one time. It was however, for that democratic socialist Bill Clinton who oversaw this country’s greatest period of capitalist growth in my lifetime when there was a chicken in every pot.

    In fact, I used to be one of THEM (I was even a closet Metrosexual at one time) but then I woke up one day and realized the fucking republicans had given away the candy store to the top one percent of the top one percent while gutting the middle class because those of us who clung to our Guns and our God were busy chasing after shiny things the Koch brothers fired out of their asses for chaff and not paying attention. So I am different now, although I still cling to my Guns and God, especially my Guns…and my God. Gun Nut? Yep…I r 1.

    So…does that answer your question?

    Reply

    • Yeah, I getcha. And thank you for responding to that with that.

      I’ve spent today picking my way through the Benghazi Committee videos. Such total BS. BTW, I live-blogged the Libyan Revolution on Daily Kos. I supported it until, well, it slowly and painfully devolved into, well, something else. But I was present, totally, via my extensive Middle East/North Africa Twitter list, when the attack on the compound occurred. The Benghazi Committee is not an investigation, either.

      I still hope wildland firefighters figure out how to get themselves paid what they deserve, including benefits and pensions, even though, apparently, a bunch of them seem to have bought into certain thought-bubbles enough to believe that all that socializm is terrible for everybody else but them; and i have no idea what those “hillbillies” (who think the 10 and 18 are “hillbilly”?) think about that “libtard” thingy about “humanly-created climate change” even as they fight the fires that the 21st century is throwing at them.

      And, I have to admit, I have read wildland firefighter’s pages on facebook that narrate a totally opposite understanding of what is going on. I acknowledge that it’s a complex bunch, as aren’t we all.

      And Mike Malloy is right now talking about Stone Mountain. Exponential irony.

      OK I am brain-dead, and I haven’t even responded to what you wrote downstream.

      Namaste.

      Reply

      • So, regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire, here’s my current issue. And this relates to your questions about that photo that was under discussion, at least tangentially.

        There are two trucks related (via their decals) to the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team parked near the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot that I don’t know who are associated with.

        That means there are two people associated with those trucks (and, therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.

        Does that matter?

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 23, 2015 at 10:06 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> there are two people associated with those trucks (and,
          >> therefore the Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management
          >> Team) who were in that parking lot after the deployment, that
          >> I don’t know who they were. And I don’t know why they were there.
          >>
          >> Does that matter?

          It certainly does.

          ADOSH had already concluded before they even finished their FIRST round of interviews that that workplace was chaotic and life-threatening… and they cited at least FOUR potential ( and actual ) entrapment situations in that workplace that afternoon because of the ‘chaos’….

          …but once they ‘pegged the meter’ on the fines they were even legally allowed to impose ( which they then DID impost on Arizona Forestry )… they lost the ability to investigate the incident fully.

          It still matters WHO all of these ‘voices’ are that were ‘talking’ directly to Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed during the time the SAIT said no one was talking directly to Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed.

          Bea Day herself was never interviewed ( along with HER OPS people Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).

          No one from the ‘already arriving’ Type 1 team was ever interviewed.

          They all SHOULD have been in order to get the FULL picture of what was really going down that afternoon.

          Reply

            • Reply to calvin post on October 24, 2015 at 6:04 am

              >> calvin asked…
              >>
              >> Does anyone have all the pictures from the ranch
              >> house organized chronologically?

              I do not ( not ALL of them… from ALL sources )… but the majority of the RHR photos that we have ( taken by Tom Story ) are, in fact, already in ‘chronological order’ as they appear in the Online Dropbox folder.

              The ‘Tom Story’ photos taken at the Ranch House Restaurant are still in this online SAIT investigation folder…

              https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AACUc_jX8WNPOrznsNSlYV-ea/Photos%20and%20Video/Tom%20Story%20Photos/201303_Yarnell_Hill_02?dl=0

              They start on the 21st row down from the top, with image 201303_Yarnell_Hill_1677.jpg.

              The timestamps are accurate ( and in chronlogical order )… but remember that Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera timestamp was about 1 minute BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here’s how we know that…

              The following TWO pictures captured the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown were actually pulling out of the RHR parking lot in their Polaris Range UTV to begin their ‘ground rescue mission’…

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1682.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:18 ( 5:08:18 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              201303_Yarnell_Hill_1683.jpg
              EXIF Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 17:08:19 ( 5:08:19 PM )
              EXIF Camera Make/Model: Canon EOS 5D Mark II

              Image 1682 shows the BR Polaris Ranger ( with Frisby and Brown in it ) beginning to pull out of the RHR parking lot and take a left and head south on Highway 89.

              Image 1683 was taken just ONE second later and shows them actually doing that ( pulling out of the parking lot onto Highway 89 ).

              The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data CONFIRMS the time for this event as photographed by Tom Story… but it also appears that the time on Tom Story’s ‘Canon EOS 5D Mark II’ camera was about 1 to 2 minutes BEHIND the real time that day.

              Here is the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data that also shows when Frisby and Brown actually left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot ( as seen in the Tom Story photos )…

              —————————————————————
              1706 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1707 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1708 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary
              1709 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary ( slight movement south )
              1710 – 34.216118, -112.758758 – 1839.480 – 20.90 – Heading northwest through Glen Ilah on Lakewood Drive
              1711 – 34.218611, -112.760239 – 1000.710 – 11.37 – At intersection of Westward/Lakewood and Manzanita Drive
              1712 – 34.215772, -112.758640 – 1183.450 – 13.45 – Back east on Lakewood Drive
              ———————————————————-

              Tom Story’s photo timestamps have them actually leaving the RHR parking lot at 1708 plus 18 seconds, but the GPS tracking data ( which was taking the TIME from the GPS satellites themselves ) doesn’t show that happening until about a minute later, between 1709 and 1710.

              Reply

  9. I have some good news for everyone! I have returned from my latest extended vacation to the Oregon Dunes NRA. Although frankly…it is a little hard to tell exactly when my vacations start and when they end except I don’t blog (or check my computer) while on vacation. After all…every day is a Saturday.

    I asked my dear wife to take a cool photo of me catching about three feet of air coming off a dune on my 800 pound quad like a bat out of hell, but all I ended up with was one of an old man I didn’t even recognize at first playing with some random ATV riders baby (the little stinker could even walk…sort of) he found in a playpen!

    I am posting it because I use my web sites like a Face Book page (which I don’t have) just in case anyone wants to put a face with the name or see what a broken down washed up hotshot looks like after almost 40 years. I think I look like a very sweet old man. I would hire me as a baby sitter…wouldn’t you? And because I think it is very important for everyone to know what I am doing (Hotshot versus Smokejumper video)! Your welcome.

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html

    Please forgive me…I digress. Because I do have some loose ends I need to tie up that I did think about while cruising on the dunes and some new ones have been created in my absence.

    1. Marti wrote, “Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?”

    And I say…Well yes I do Marti, but only you and maybe a few other people care what I think about this subject, so I don’t think it makes any difference. Everybody else but us are happy with the status quo, the agencies, the wildland firefighters, the blue shirts, the public, the families…oh….and especially the families.

    “Nobody did anything wrong, the big bad fire had a mind of its own, it did not follow the laws of nature, physics or it’s predicted path, it did not do exactly what the weather forecasters predicted it would do, the GMIHC were not safe in hundreds of acres of black and they could not have simple dropped back down off the ridge and hiked to the southwest to find millions of acres of safe zone, they had to leave the black and hike down a brush choked box canyon directly in front of a raging inferno to try and reach a bomb proof safety zone that ended up being not all that bomb proof so no investigation or no new information is needed.”

    2. WTKTT said, “They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him. He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.”

    And I say…I hate to be the person that always pisses on everybody’s parade, but they can’t do that. Temporary employees are not entitled to those kinds of benefits, that is why employers hire temporary employees, to limit their long term liabilities regarding those employees. But then again, they also can’t make temporary employees retroactively full time employees either…so maybe he can pull it off. Like I said on the thread earlier, it’s a good thing they didn’t work for Uncle Sam…there is NEVER any give when are between that rock and a hard place.

    3. WTKTT said, ” I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
    He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.”

    And I say…I agree, I stated that very firmly last year when the news came out that he was going to do that and I predicted that gig would not last very long. There is a short shelf life to being a professional victim and a Sad Sack.

    4. Joy has asked me to drop my inquiry into her situation with Amanda Beno Marsh because she is afraid Mrs. Beno Marsh will use anything and everything against her to get the restraining order against her renewed. And I am going to honor that request unless somebody pushes my buttons again in the meantime.

    I did however, receive MY copy of the verbatim record of the Beno Marsh vs. Collura court case that I paid for and I have completed MY analysis of that court case and I not only CAN give you some insight into what occurred that fateful day, but I WILL give spell it out for you even thought I am sure Joy would prefer that I kept my mouth (and keyboard) shut on the issue.

    First and foremost…Joy SHOULD have won that day if the case would have been decided on the evidence that was presented alone. AND I am prepared to debate that conclusion with anyone including Judge Markam any time, any place, or anywhere.

    I actually think Judge Markam is a good judge and a good man, I just think he was overwhelmed by the Beno Marsh and Pfingston carnival sideshow (Debra and Jerry were there to cheer Mrs. Beno Marsh on in the name of their God) that would have done Jerry Springer proud.

    And unfortunately for Joy, she testifies and cross examines witnesses a lot like she writes…in riddles. Mrs. Beno Marsh is even worse once you throw in the overwhelming pity party she throws for herself wherever she goes, the theatrics, the gross exaggerations (lies) and the unashamed manipulations based on her status as a Public Figure and Object Of Pity.

    Let me put it this way to you, I’m not saying that either Mrs. Beno Marsh, Darrell Willis or our hapless hero would have ever asked for their current status, but now that they have it…dumb ass fuck up and Darrell Willis aren’t the only ones who are rolling in it and making the most out of it.

    FYI, my mother was entitled to her privacy after her husband was killed on the job because she did not willingly turn herself into a Public Figure with great enthusiasm in a successful (so far) attempt to misuse public funds for a private memorial site. Once you do that…you lose your right to be respected as a private citizen, just as a have lost my right to be respected as a private citizen because of my outspoken views on this blog. We are all accountable for our own actions.

    Judge Markam probably wouldn’t have made the mistake he did under normal circumstances but he was so preoccupied with keeping some semblance of order in the three ring circus he was the ring master for after somebody let all of the wild animals out of their cages. AND Judge Markam’s second highest priority was to have the case wrapped up and finished by 5:00 p.m. come hell or high water. So no…justice was not served.

    5. WTKTT made some comments about how now Arizona State Parks has officially closed the park because they say so. As I stated earlier, there has never been any doubt that the Arizona State Parks can close any park they want to…the trick has always been, and still remains, to close it to some of the public while keeping it open and accessible to some of the public. I think they are still doing that in the shadows, which is BULLSHIT! And as of tonight, they are still running their fraud agasint the public by keeping an invalid and worthless document on their web site as though it is an official closure order, which is was once, but is no longer. What a crock of shit!

    http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    6. Marti and I got into a discussion down below about me saying something about how I was still trying to figure out why the GMIHC died to which Marti responded that in fact, we already (believe) we know why they died. To quote Sir Winston Churchill, I think the question of “Why” the GMIHC died is not simply a why…it is a “It is a riddle wrapped in a mystery inside an enigma.”

    So yes, we think we know the first level of “why” they died, the GMIHC/
    tried to make it to the back side of Yarnell by beating the fire front to town so they could provide the manpower to backfire the dozer line. But I believe it goes much, much deeper than that and it far more complex with other layers of “why” like an onion and is for more compel. And of course I believe these other layers of “why” are deeply rooted in the humane factors aspect of this tragedy.

    All of the other hotshot crews were burned over and killed for very easy to understand and very basic reasons. They were cutting (or improving) hand line above an uncontrolled wildfire and they exhibited far too much “can do” gung ho spirit while trying to get the job done that was dramatically counter to their own survival. Simple.

    7. Fernanda Santos said, “I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.” And I say, That certainly fits into the “ya…no shit” category. And I guess we found out in a really bad way just who the weakest link in the GMIHC chain was. Their names were Marsh and Steed. We have already had one book on the Yarnell Hill Fire published that I didn’t read but certified I am told as pure unadulterated bullshit. We now have a second book and probably a movie being developed with our hapless hero as the technical consultant. What do you think the odds are that book and movie will be an even bigger crock of bullshit.

    We have a third book currently being written that has NEILL as the technical research specialist, non-profit board member and full time apologist for Eric Marsh…what are the odds that book will be a crock of bullshit as well? And now we have Ms. Santos. She is quoting trite platitudes offered by both Marsh and Steed regarding the tensile strength of the GMIHC when they were made of very hard but apparently very brittle steel themselves. Gee…what are the odds that her book will be a crock of bullshit as well?

    So unlike Marti…I am not looking forward to Santo or the Maclean books. And now, I am hearing the HELM’S are writing a book. OMG!

    Sidenote: I can tell you there is an aspect to being a hotshot that has never been brought up on this thread that I recall and that is the area where both Marsh and Steed catastrophically failed that is just as important as being physically fit and tough…maybe it is even more important. And that is to exhibit mental toughness and strength at all times. Be able to accept and withstand the stress of doing the right thing from those who are pressuring you to do the wrong thing even though you know it will cost you a great deal…maybe everything you have worked for your entire life.

    I can talk the talk because I walked the walk when I met that ultimate test of fire and passed. I was relieved of my command while fighting the Scott Fire on the Coronado National Forest in 1983 and I was sent home for refusing to follow orders that were contrary to the good of my crew. And then my entire hotshot crew (Santa Fe) was sent home with me on a jet that has been chartered expressly for just that one purpose because they then refused to follow orders from both a sector boss and line boss after the fire boss relieved me of my command.

    Talk about stress. And no dojo, weight room, track or Mt. MF can prepare you for that challenge, it comes from deep down inside and you probably won’t even know whether you have it or not until the day you are called on to use it. Marsh and Steed were challenged to do the right thing for their crew and they failed…and then their crew died. Period…end of story.

    Finally…I am really overdue to finish writing my email to Karen Fann because I believe it will be so pointless. And I know what some of you may be thinking. I have written so many pointless comments up to this point, what is the problem now?

    Point well taken. It’s just that I am a little bit discourage with the way the BOARD is running this entire process, it makes me want to throw up my hands and just say “FUCK YOU” to the entire rotten bunch. But I keep a special whip in my closet for self-flagellation for occasions such as this and I will get it out to punish myself until I finish my response to Fann. I know their plans are cut in stone, but at this point in my life I enjoy eventually being able to say, “I told you so” more than I enjoy having people follow my advice.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. My test by fire came many years before “Turn Down Protocols” were even thought of. No USFS IHC crew boss told a Fire Boss, Line Boss and Sector Boss, “No” back in 1983! Which is why they tried their best to make an example out of me but the subsequent investigation concluded I had been right in what I did. So yes…I am qualified to throw stones at both Marsh and Steed.

      Reply

      • P.S., Funny story…The fire boss and the line boss sent the sector boss onto the bus (at almost midnight) to order the crew to disembark. The sector boss looked pretty funny falling all over himself trying to get off that bus after the entire crew started throwing spit cups, soda cans, and half eaten fruit and sandwiches at him.

        That’s what got the whole crew sent home with me. Of course I could have stopped it with a word but I had been relieved of my command so I just stood there and enjoyed the spectacle.

        “They” spend millions of dollars for each and every hotshot crew in order to build high performance machines out of them. And then they bitch when their creations perform like high performance machines at some inconvenient times…for them.

        Reply

        • Have you done any checking on the Teepee Springs Fire?
          2 HS Crews refused a assignment got into it with the IC and filed a complaint
          The IC got removed from his Team. It is over on Wildfire Today.
          What a mess. Haven’t found the Names of the TWO CREWS yet.

          Reply

          • No, I don’t know anymore about it than you just told me. Frankly…I have lost the few wildland firefighters contacts I had left because of my participation on this thread,…so I don’t even have anyone to ask, which is no big deal. I don’t really need to know much at this point in my life, I can just make stuff up as I go along.

            Reply

  10. So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).

    (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

    So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted recently.

    And before I do that I have to say that, honestly, I have had to constantly weigh back and forth between my curiosity and conviction that what we are doing just NEEDS TO BE DONE, and my resentment that we are doing is something that somebody should be paying somebody (like us) to be doing, because this just NEEDS TO BE DONE.

    OK. So context description and rant over.

    (I’m writing this while someone is calling in on Norman Goldman’s radio show about how the wildfire was burning thru the hiway in California while the aerial fire-fighting planes were on a stand-down because of the stupid drone operators)

    What really resonated with me was this:

    WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:

    “That’s all they could do.

    It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

    The rest of his comment is truly worth contemplating, and so it is located here:

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311673

    I really agree with he wrote, all things considered. I’m looking forward to Fernanda Santos’ book. I’m also looking forward to John McLean’s book.

    But, all things considered, given the cover-ups and GAG ORDERS and relative paucity of relevant FACTS, I don’t see how either of the above two books are going to be able to narrate what actually happened on this fire.

    Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….

    Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring out how to envision and implement that…..

    “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”

    that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?

    Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.

    Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

    Reply

    • And PS.

      In a kind of convoluted downstream conversation regarding the “photo under consideration,” and how that photo might possibly relate to who might have been the one asking, “waz yo status”

      Bob Powers said on OCTOBER 16, 2015 AT 7:29 AM

      “Maybe my old brain—-
But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry”

      No “Sorry” required, at all. Not at all.

      In fact, that line of thinking has been a part of my saying/wondering (for a REALLY long time) this:

      Marti Reed says OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 1:39 PM

      “Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might ‘matter’ that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

      I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

      And, therefore, one of my ongoing ‘unresolved issues’ has all along been, ‘Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???’

      I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.”

      If what Bob Powers is saying might be true — that SOMEBODY at the Incident Command Post was, in fact, tasked with paying attention to the radio conversations (especially since the Incident Commander wasn’t paying attention to them, via his ADOSH interview)

      ….and that possibly that person might have been the one who asked “fire waz yo status”

      ….and that SOMEBODY drove that Incident Management Team truck across the Air2Air video camera at (and ONLY AT), while heading east at about 4:28 PM, (one minute after the Gamble Video)

      …….and it got parked in front of the RHR parking lot before Tom Story’s photos started being taken, and I don’t know if it was there in the Reason Video (because I STILL haven’t had time to schlep my hard drives around the corner)

      ……..and I have NO IDEA who was driving that truck and NO IDEA who, in the Tom Story photos, the driver of that truck is, even though it is in the middle of everything, including the one that Paul Musser and Tony Sciacca and ( I think) Rance Marquez and Dan Philbin are gathered around

      Might it just might be important to figure out WHO was driving that truck?

      It might not lead to the “fire waz yo status” questioner?

      But it really bugs me that we don’t know who was driving that truck that left the ICP and crossed the camera at 4:28 PM and then parked it in what became the middle of the action at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

      Reply

      • And, to be honest, I’ve been thinking about the possibility that that truck might be related to that fire-fighter in the red helmet who, as soon as Darrell Willis pulls up, is seen talking to him via his passenger window, and then keeps pacing the area, who I’m currently thinking might be Dean Steward.

        But i don’t think Dean Steward would have been that southernish cajunish to ask “waz yo status” much less preface that with either “five” or “fire.”

        The only thing that links my thinking about Dean Steward being linked to that truck is that he was on one of the Arizona Incident Management Teams. But the truck he was driving on the Doce Fire was this:

        https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10151489257408715&set=a.54829353714.68352.687098714&type=3

        So, I actually don’t think he was driving that Incident Management Team truck. But I do think he’s the guy in the red helmet.

        Reply

    • And I also feel a need to say that if Joy’s witness regarding what was happening on Norton Way, which indicates no fire-fighters doing much of any evacuating — including Gary Cordes — that could make it possible that Gary Cordes was the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department at 4:27 PM to pick up their ATV.

      Reply

      • Which would mean Paul Musser might not have anything to do with the “Hail Mary Plan.”

        There really needs to be an investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        Hello?

        Reply

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 20, 2015 at 6:23 pm

      >> Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> So I’ve been really really busy with Other Stuff™ including moving and trying
      >> to follow, via Daily Kos (with all its WARTS), what”s going on politically on the
      >> national level right now, but I’ve still been READING (except my email, which
      >> I KNOW I KNOW I KNOW i need to catch up with).
      >>
      >> (And, to be perfectly honest, one of the things that mystifies me big-time is
      >> how is it that so many Arizona wildland fire-fighters, via their Facebook
      >> posts (including, to the total MAX Dean Steward) are such hard-core
      >> Republican “Obummah” and “Libtard” haters, except when it comes to getting
      >> their salaries increased and pensions paid for and wildland fire policies
      >> financed………….but that’s a whole nuther story…….)

      Yes, it is ( but your observations are spot on ). Dean Steward, himself, is his own brand of ‘crazy town’. Long-time engine-mate and VERY close friend of OPS1 Todd Abel’s… as per Steward’s own PUBLIC Facebook page… he actually makes CANNONS that he attaches to UTV’s and test-fires them on his ranch. We are talking actual home-grown ARTILLERY.

      I kid you not ( See his PUBLIC ‘Facebook’ photo albums ).

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> So, tonight I read down the stream to see what some of my downstream
      >> questions had generated in the way of responses, and thank you all for your
      >> responses, and then I came to a response by WTKTT that I want to post to
      >> the top, because I think it relates to some of the stuff that has been posted
      >> recently.
      >>
      >> What really resonated with me was this:
      >>
      >> WantsToKnowTheTruth said on OCTOBER 13, 2015 AT 7:35 AM, regarding why
      >> didn’t ADOSH investigate more after the SAIR turned out to be a white-wash:
      >>
      >> “That’s all they could do.
      >>
      >> It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single
      >> court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a
      >> room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence
      >> ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to
      >> at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.”

      That remains true. It will still only take ONE court case where witnesses can be called to get all these people onto the stand, or into a ‘room’ for a REAL deposition, once and for all.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Maybe, given all this mess, and all the rabbit-holes WE have had to spend our
      >> TIME wandering down into, just because there was never the actual investigation
      >> that the Arizona Governor Janet Brewer actually ORDERED published,……………….
      >>
      >> Is it possible that we might be better served by investing our TIME in figuring
      >> out how to envision and implement that…..
      >> “some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case )”
      >> that WTKTT wrote about in his comment?
      >>
      >> Just wondering, because I’m really running out of the kind of whatever it has
      >> taken to keep me (and us) doing this work (after TWO YEARS of doing it), and
      >> yet I am still committed to continuing to try to bring some kind of JUSTICE
      >> to this whole Cluster-f*ck Fire, which, ahem, IS STILL BURNING.
      >>
      >> Does anybody else resonate with what I have just written?

      Well… I certainly do.

      I ( me ), you… and a whole shitload of other people are the ones who are PAYING the SALARIES of ALL of these people who don’t think that telling the whole truth is something that applies to THEM.

      It’s called ‘Public Service’.

      Keyword: PUBLIC.

      You can try to be as insular as the damn MAFIA… but there are still LAWS that need to be obeyed and all this ‘secrecy’ is, in fact, part of the PROBLEM that has been uncovered by the events of June 30, 2013.

      That being said… Marti… I owe you an apology for the exchanges down below.

      I understand your frustration as we got back into these “Who had the camper top vehicle”? discussions… and the fact that this really was all discussed before and you were wondering why some of these discrepancies were only now surfacing.

      I went back and ‘checked the record’ myself… because I DO rememeber scratching my head way back when about SOME of the conclusions being reached… but couldn’t remember why I wasn’t ‘jumping in’.

      The answer is that at that time when you took off like a banshee and did this AMAZING work on the photos and the tracing of the vehicles and the owners… it actually happened right at the point where I was ‘heads down’ into the ABC15 News Helicopter footage from June 30, 2013, and I was trying to match the aerial footage with ground locations.

      That was no easy task. It came down ( in some cases ) to just scouring the landscape and trying to match small groups of BOULDERS seen in the aerial footage with the same groupings as seen in Google Earth.

      But I got it done.

      What I MISSED doing that was ‘jumping in’ when you ( and Calvin ) were doing this amazing job of nailing down all these ‘vehicles’, and ‘who owned them’, and what ‘photos’ they appeared in.

      So I’m going to try to RECAP that discussion from below, which was reignited by us trying to identify the FFs in the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

      That’s what led to that ‘revisit’ of “Who was driving what?” down below.

      I don’t have much time this evening so I’m going to have to SUMMARIZE what I’ve found since the posts below.

      I’ve been on airplanes solid and only today got back near the bulk of my own files and photos and notes… and I’ll be ‘back in the air’ tomorrow but I need to get the following information ‘off my desk’ so you have a chance to see it and come back with your own opinions.

      I’m going to ‘go there’ in the next ‘Reply’ to this message so this one doesn’t get ‘too long’.

      Reply

      • ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S VEHICLE

        Geez… I just looked at the clock and I have to be back in the air in just a few hours so I’m afraid I’m going to have to be quick about this… but it’s important.

        So apologies in advance for not supplying ‘links’ like I usually like to do, but I think you will know exactly what photos are being referenced below.

        There are THREE…

        1. That Blue Ridge Photo showing the ‘meeting’ out by the GM Crew Carriers that included Rance Marquez, Cougan Carothers and ( what is now pretty certain ) just two other Blue Ridge Hotshots ( but NOT Frisby and Brown because at the moment that photo was taken they were actually up on the ridge having that face-to-face with Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ).

        2. The TWO Swartz photos in his ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder that show that ‘group’ of FFs out on the shoulder of 89 at the RHR… and the ones that ( I now believe ) show BOTH of the vehicles being drive by Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers.

        Actually… I remember the TWO Swarts photo names off the top of my head.

        I am talking ( below ) about…

        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG
        and
        20130630_1843_AZ-A1S-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG

        I’ll call them just ‘FB_1’ and ‘FB_5’ since that’s the only thing different in the filenames in that Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ folder.

        Okay… here we go. Sorry this had to be ‘narrative’ style because I really am ‘outta time’ at the moment.

        The other vehicle with the camper top in that BR photo of the Marquez/Carothers + 2 others “meeting” out where the GM carriers were parked CANNOT be the other CYFD pickup with the camper top.

        There is no LIGHT RACK on the top of it.

        But you are RIGHT that there IS this ‘other vehicle’ parked between the CYFD pickup without the camper top ( and just the silver toolbox in the bed ) that was being driven by Cougan Carothers.

        It is WHITE ( on the top )… it has a LOOOONG whellbase, and it does, in fact, have a camper top.

        But the answer here is simple.

        That is the “WHITE with YELLOW STRIPE” looong extended-cab ( with camper top ) BLM pickup that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        That also CANNOT be ‘Gary Cordes’ standing in that group of four FFs having that ‘meeting’.

        In Rance Marquez”s own typed UNIT LOG ( submitted to ADOSH only because he testified to ADOSH that he even offered this Unit Log of his to the SAIT and they actually said they did NOT want it )…. Marquez specifically references that meeting that was photographed in that BR photo.

        He CONFIRMS ( in his Unit Log ) that Gary Cordes only gave them DIRECTIONS to get out there to where those GM Carriers were parked. Cordes did NOT GO OUT THERE himself. It’s pretty safe now to say that after Cordes ‘handed off’ the dozer HEQB/DOZB job to BR Hotshot Cory Ball circa 10:30 AM… Cordes never went back out there to the Sesame area for the rest of the day. He worked ‘in town’ from that point on.

        Marquez says that when they FIRST arrived out there… they stopped where all the carriers were parked and had a ‘meeting’ with two of the Blue Ridge Hotshots. They told him that Frisby and Brown had gone up to the ridge for that face-to-face meeting which ( according to GPS data ) happened from exactly 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM.

        So that’s what that BR photo really is.

        It captures the moment when Marquez and Carothers met with two of the BR Hotshots ( probably squad leaders ) who were ‘hanging around’ there by the BR Carriers right where the GM Carriers also were.

        So that photo is ( from left to right )…

        A tall ( almost bald ) BR Hotshot with some kind of ‘orange’ thing around his neck.
        Cougan Carothers.
        Rance Marquez ( in that light-lemon-yellow Nomex shirt that is easily recognized and unlike the color of anyone else’s Nomex shirt that day ).
        Another ( shorter ) Blue Ridge Hotshot with a black ball cap and what looks to be ‘white kerchiefs’ sticking out of his pockets.

        The FF you thought was Cordes ( on the left ) is the same HEIGHT and BUILD as that same BR Hotshot who ended up shielding Brendan McDonough from the video camera in the Russ Reason video as Brendan was standing at the back of Marty Cole’s all-white Tacoma pickup with camper top.

        He is ALSO the same TALL BR Hotshot seen in that photo taken of Brian Frisby just after they arrived at the RHR and just after hearing the deployment traffic. He is on the RIGHT side of that photo, in closeup, and he still has that same pinkish-orange thing around his neck as seen in the ‘meeting’ photo. It appears to be just some kind of strap holding his sunglasses… but the COLOR is a definite match for whatever is around the neck of the BR FF that you thought might be ‘Cordes’ in the ‘meeting’ photo.

        Now for the Swartz ‘Town of Yarnell’ photos ( FB_1 and FB _5 ).

        That is the SAME long white camper-top pickup seen parked on the road there as seen in the BR hotshot ‘meeting’ photo ( in-between Cougan’s CYFD no-camper pickup and the GM Crew Carriers ).

        FB_1 doesn’t show the BLM ‘green diamond’ logo on the door… but FB_5 DOES.

        So that pretty much HAS to be the ‘long white BLM pickup with camper top’ that Rance Marquez was driving that day.

        Rance Marquez WORKED as a ‘Fuels expert’ for BLM circa June, 2013.
        His RESOURCE order shows him as being sub-contracted from BLM and the ‘transportation’ field on his order SAYS he was driving an ‘AOV’ ( Agency Owned Vehicle )’.

        So that long white pickup with the camper top ( and no light bar ) and the yellow stripe and the ‘green diamond’ BLM logo on the door had to be his.

        The other ‘match’ is on the ‘roof’ of this long white camper-top truck.

        It does NOT have a ‘light bar’ ( as Gary Cordes’ CYFD camper-top pickup did )… but it does have a small black KNOB with a radio antenna sticking out of it.

        That same KNOB is seen BOTH the ‘Sesame clearing meeting’ photo AND in BOTH of the Swartz photos.

        So unless I am losing my mind… I think all of the following things are now true…

        1. The vehicles in that BR ‘meeting’ photo ( other than the GM Crew Carriers ) are simply Rance Marquez’s long white camper-top BLM truck and Cougan Carothers’ CYFD non-camper-top pickup.

        2. Gary Cordes is NOT in that photo, nor was he present at that ‘meeting’.

        3. Gary Cordes really WAS driving that ‘camper top’ CYFD pickup that day, so that means that really is him still up north on Hwy 89 at 4:16 PM as seen in the Jake Guadiana video….

        4. ….and that means that really is him seen driving south on Highway 89 in the ( thank to Joy Collura ) Anna Marie Lechner photo… which Anna Marie has now already confirmed WAS taken in about the 4:45 PM timeframe.

        I think that eliminates him as a candidate for being the one to drive Cory Ball to the YFD to get the ATV… but that all depends on the accuracy of the TIME on the Anna Marie Lechner photo.

        More later…

        Reply

        • Thanks TONS, WTKTT!!

          You and I really “walked away” from our “vehicle id-ing” with COMPLETELY different takes on things.

          But, I think you’re correct here, and no, you aren’t losing your mind, but all of my marbles are DEFINITELY tossed up in the air again. But in a good way. But now I have a bunch more questions about where my marbles are going to fall.

          I have REPEATEDLY said that I thought Rance Marquez (when I wasn’t mistakenly saying Cougan Carothers) was driving that BLUE truck that crossed the Air2Air camera at 3:51PM (which is partially why I didn’t believe Rance’s testimony) before being seen in the video on 89 before being seen in Aaron’s video turning around before being seen in almost all of Story’s photos, etc etc. It’s also seen in a photo taken at 2:15 PM at the ICP in the photo IMG_20130630_141459_148.jpg from the MiscASFD collection.

          And I had completely missed the differences between the BLM truck that we see Dan Philbin walking away from and that other BLM truck. And they’re totally different. I had missed that.

          And I had thought the BR Hotshot in the photo of Brian Frisby was Trew Brown. I had no idea there was a BR Hotshot who was “almost bald” looking. That’s why I thought the guy at the far left in the “meeting” photo was Gary Cordes. He’s the only “almost bald” grey-haired person I know of on the fire.

          Is that “almost bald” person in the video of the BR Hotshots at that later event (I can’t remember what even that was, because I haven’t looked at that video all that much)?

          I had pretty much given up trying to identify all the BR Hotshots because it was becoming a “rabbit hole” for me. Becuz it’s really hard to tell their differences, especially when they’re covered with dirt, smoke, helmets, and sunglasses, unless they REALLY look different. I still have trouble trying to distinguish who’s Brian and who’s Trew in all of those RHR parking lot photos.

          So I had id’d the guys in the “meeting” photo as (l to r) Cordes, Ball (and I’m still not totally in agreement with you that that is Rance Marquez for certain reasons), Cougan Carothers, and Rance Marquez.

          I’ve pretty much associated Cory Ball with that big turned-up collar (ish), for better or worse.

          So now that leaves me wondering, “WHO was driving that BLUE truck???”

          The blue truck has two decals on it. I can’t read the one on the front drivers side door, but the one on the side of the bed is another one of those “IMT” decals that, I’m pretty sure, is related to the “Arizona Central West Zone Incident Management Team,” except it has a blue BLM triangle on it, which is another reason why I associated it with Rance Marquez.

          So now we have TWO trucks with those “IMT” decals in the RHR parking lot photos; and now I have no idea WHO was driving EITHER of them. The white one is an “Arizona Fire” truck (that I REALLY don’t think Paul Musser was driving — see my many reasons downstream) and the other is a BLM-related truck.

          And, yeah, Dean Steward is a real character. Hope he gets his socialist pension benefits. He surely deserves them, even if nobody else on the planet deserves their (obummer is a socialist) socialist benefits!!

          Reply

          • Yikes. It’s 9:20 in the morning here in Burque and we’re having an electrical storm plus hail. In the middle of October.

            Fortunately the Balloon Fiesta had the best weather (except for one day) that I’ve seen in about a decade. Bookended by heavy curtains of cold, rainy weather.

            Oh well, Albuquerque still has about the best (climate-change-impacted) weather in the country!

            Reply

          • Oh, and also I had missed the missingness of the lightbar on that white truck in the “meeting” photo. Or just thought it must have been hidden by the big truck in front of it.

            It really is a Lessons Learned lesson (at least for me) as to how easy it is for the narratives we have carefully and painstaking developed in our heads to turn into rutted roads that we drive over again and again and again until we think they represent “The Truth.”

            Namaste!

            Reply

          • OK I just realized, after going back and doing some more scouring, that ALL the IMT decals on the trucks seen in photos and videos from the Yarnell Fire have that big blue triangle on the left side of them.

            So that means that the blue truck is NOT associated with BLM, and I think the decal on the side door is probably also a State Forestry Division division decal.

            Reply

    • Marti is right–How can anyone write a book of facts about the Yarnell Hill Fire when the real story is under gag order and whitewash. There is much yet to be revealed but indeed conjecture is out there already as we saw from the Dickman story. Facts mixed with fiction equals fiction.

      Well Dr Ted Putnam and John Dougherty proved to me that they are after the facts of this Yarnell firestorm that killed nineteen young men, burned half the town of Yarnell and a number of residences of Peeples Valley, left a legacy of aftermath deaths in the amount over 50 Yarnell residents since the fire and plenty of answered questions. Folks, that is ten percernt of our Yarnell population wiped out–something John says is off the chart. Yet no one has investigated the reasons for that. Were there poisons in the air–most people who have died from lung and heart problems. That heart deprived of oxygen is a killer and its death is generally due to oxygen deprivation. I have myself had to alter my hiking habits and lately had problems even crossing the Wal Mart store from one end to the other. Three heart stints and a diagnosis of possible early COPD after all ranks me among those in this town who are presently complaining of lung problems after the fire that was allowed to burn by preference of certain unidentified persons–at least publicly.

      When we were on the mountain Joy wondered why it seemed that not much was being done to stop the fire. I told her that the main idea was to let it go for a prescribed burn. Was that why the Yarnell fire department was discouraged–even ordered to stand down in their efforts to halt the fire? Gag orders keep the real truth withheld at least publicly while local residents gag on the crap they are fed to make this look like a God incident. Ordinarily you would have believed 19 lives of America’s finests would deserve the investigation of a high federal investigation–namely the FBI who would not be connected to the good old boy and crony system that is evident in this situation. How on God’s earth can something like this be glossed over as if good old Jesus intended those boys to go to their death without due process.

      The thing is it seems that allowing fires to escalate beyond control allows a lot of financial benefits to certain parties and that even after the fire —but at what cost. Well those that did profit from this never look at what allowing a miniature lighting strike really does cost. Will this change the way the future fire bosses view fires? We certainly hope so since the only benefit to society at large will be the lessons learned from the folly of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Reply

    • If there is ANY smokejumpers out there that was fed doubt in 2015 on hikers. Contact me directly to show the truth always matters…
      We can sit down in person and cover your doubts. Also we know one person will look into Smokejumper 2015 convention video footage but I am using this platform to inquire to anyone else who has footage reach us with it. It is sad Johnny broke news to me…aloha…Moses…you may have been spot on…

      Reply

  11. nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know of..…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends either???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkk and have there info on here.//…..

    Reply

    • Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire.
      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out.

      Reply

      • Dale1 If you and your friends were not on Yarnell Hill Fire.
        Then there would be no Gag order on you or them it has to do with
        Witness information from those on the scene.

        Reply

    • dale1 says
      OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:07 AM

      nobody i know who’s UsFS or BLM have orders on them not to talk about yarnell.WERE ANY OF YOUR USFS OR BLM A PART IN CRUCIAL POINTS TO THE YHF AND THAT DEFINES FRIDAY AND SATURDAY AND SUNDAY BECAUSE EACH DAY CARRIED CRUCIAL POINTS —I WISH I COULD BRING UP A FEW THINGS—SHIT—I DO BUT GOTTA KEEP THIS LINE TIGHT//….. theres not a order not to talk about it that i know ofCAN YOU DIRECTLY ASK THE PEOPLE YOU KNOW…AHHH SHIT…I CAN’T,,,I WILL LET THE PROFESSIONALS ASK THE QUESTIONS TO YOU DALE1 BUT NOW YOU ARE IMPORTANT TO THIS HERE DISCUSSION BECAUSE YOU KNOW POSSIBLY PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE YHF…AND YET THEY HAVE NEVER COME TO THIS PAGE TO TALK OR HELP ANSWER QUESTIONS DURING SERIOUS DISCUSSIONS NOT EVEN IN PRIVATE LIKE MANY HAVE DONE FOR US INCLUDING EX GMHS…. mebbe there is order but i nver seen it and my friends eitherASK AROUND BECAUSE THIS IS NOT OUR FIRST ACCOUNT OF HEARING YET IT IS OUR FIRST ACCOUNT TO KNOW THIS PERSON HAS ONE HELL OF A CREDENTIAL BACKGROUND AND THAT ALONE IS GOLD
      ???? ..//?? ppl get nervous and dont want to talkkI KNOW THAT EMOTION DEEPLY. A SERIAL KILLER IS OUT OR SOON OUT AND I KNOW ALL TOO WELL ABOUT NERVES/DONT WANT TO SPEAK/LAY LOW AND JUST LIVE MY LIFE AND KEEP THE WORLD OUT…HAD BEEN DOING IT ALL MY LIFE UNTIL I MET SONNY…HE HAS BEEN MY BIGGEST LIFE CHANGING EVENT AS WELL AS HOW TO FACE NEW FOREIGN CHALLENGES…YOU ASK ANYONE IN CHANDLER THAT I ONLY TOOK CARE OF MY NEAR AND DEAR OLDER NEIGHBORS AND I ONLY MET MY GAL PALS AT THE GYM OR AWAY FROM MY HOME TO ROLLERBLADE…ROCK CLIMB…RUN…ETC…AND MET ALL CELEBS BUT A HANDFUL AWAY FROM MY HOME—ONLY A FEW GOVT FOLKS AND CELEBS BEEN IN MY HOME—I JUST AM NOT SOCIAL LIKE THAT…IN CONGRESS THOUGH, YOU STOP BY THE WATER COMPANY HERE AND ASK ABOUT ME—SHE WILL STATE EXACTLY THE FOLLOWING FOR IT IS A COPY/PASTE OF HER OWN WORDS:
      “I have known Joy for approximately ten years. In the time I have known her she has always been interested in community service and in helping both the older people and the children in our community. She has never accepted any payment for her service and has a strong Christian belief that it is all our duty to help the less fortunate and needy around us.

      I know that Joy has always love the desert and enjoys taking long hikes in the area. She has a great concern for the fireman who were killed in the Yarnell fire and the area surrounding that burn site.

      Over the years Joy has dropped what ever she was doing to help me and my family so if I can do something to help her I am glad to do it.

      If I can be of further assistance don’t hesitate to contact me.

      Sincerely

      Patricia l Fisher ”
      AS SHE IS ONE OF ALMOST FEW THOUSAND+ SIGNATURES WE GATHERED IN A FEW DAYS FROM SUNDAY TO WEDNESDAY NIGHT TO SHOW JUDGE THAT DAY 1-8-15 THAT I HAVE EXCELLENT CHARACTER AND IT WAS JUST ONE FRUSTRATED MOMENT—I AM NOT A THREAT TO ANYONE—NOT EVEN THE ONES NARRATING THE YHF…I CAN GET FRUSTRATED AND MOODY–I AM HUMAN BUT NOT OF ANY BODILY HARM…JUST WANT ANSWERS AND IT SEEMS I AM FINALLY GETTING THEM…THANK YOU BUNCHES TOO…
      … and have there info on here.//…..WELL, DALE1…MANY IN THAT SAME BOAT HAVE COME TO US IN CONFIDENTIALITY AND AS WELL AS BOB POWERS HAS HAD THAT HAPPEN AND GARY OLSEN. WE ARE NOT TRYING TO “WIN” OR MAKE A BOOK OR GATHER THE MOST INFORMATION BUT WE WILL KEEP THE I M CAMPFIRE ALIVE AND BURNING BECAUSE IT IS THE HONORABLE RIGHT THING TO DO—TOO MANY AFFECTED BY THE YHF…RIGHT OTIS FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY?

      REPLY BELOW

      Reply FROM Bob Powers OCTOBER 19, 2015 AT 11:16 AM

      Dale1— It was ordered on the BR Hot Shots and FS Overhead on the Fire. AS WELL AS THIS PERSON.

      Along with the Heavily redacted written Statements of the Crew. When the SAIT report came out. WHICH IS THE PART I WANT TO ADD..THE REASON I AM NOT MENTIONING LOCATION AND WHO AND AWAIT THE PROFESSIONALS TO INTERVIEW THEM—(JOHN DOUGHERTY/DR TED PUTNAM/ORIGINAL OSHA MEN WE HIKED)…JOHN MACLEAN WOULD UNDERSTAND THIS TERMINOLOGY—“KEEP A TIGHT LINE”—IF I LOOSEN THE INFORMATION TOO FAST AND TOO PURE—WE MAY NOT LAND THE VERY FIRST ALIVE ACCOUNT THAT WAS PRESENT AT A CRUCIAL PART TO THE FIRE THAT STATES VERBALLY THE PERSON WAS GAGGED UNDER FEDERAL ORDERS AND SERVED AND I MADE SURE MANY TIMES TO DEFINE THAT—WHO IT IS OBVIOUS BY BODY LANGUAGE IS “UNDER PRESSURE”—SO WE THE HIKERS HAVE TO MAINTAIN A TIGHT LINE…NOT A TIGHT LIP BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GAGGED—YOU EVER SEE A SPANIARD LEAD A BULL WITH THAT LARGE RING IN HIS NOSE…SMOOTHLY DRAW IT IN AND IT WILL FOLLOW…BACK TO LOWER case…I was using CAPS for replying only…not emphasize of a word…
      back to my fish on a line and where I was headed—The SAIT means to me just this…as long as they keep that head moving in the right direction, they have a better chance of dictating and controlling the fight and keeping emotions under control. But, not always. Often the fish tumbles, jumps or quickly changes directions and gets his head going in the opposite direction that they want. When this happens the fish is in control and often heads for cover/structure, which more often than not means logs. I am just letting the fishies know…we have enough confidential accounts and it begins with YOU speaking up and now we know concretely there are these fishies…and about the fish line…there can be a fine line between too much pressure and not enough. Often, it isn’t enough…I do not want to lose this rare opportunity…The time, in my opinion…when a fish is most likely to “spit the hook” ….send the hook back to you…. is when it’s down stream, facing you, and shaking its head violently…When this occurs…let him go…
      bottom line in any part of making it may it be fishing or landing a job…its the smoothness and fastness and well I don’t have it so that is why I have to let the professionals take my line to reach this person properly…I don’t want to screw it up…but this is a fair enough statement to share to those on the YHF right now that if this person ends up speaking first and not YOU and you know who you are…this is not a joke…it is better if you speak up first before this person. I would say in my humble opinion contact John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…and the OSHA originals as I am awaiting that as well…I seriously WOULD NOT wait until you see what this person says first…time to open up…it is…I am not trying to pressure you yet this is not just some housewife huffing and puffing…it is going to happen…the news will come out…I won’t allow it to just sit QUIET like so many of you did for 2+ years…I just need it done the right way.

      Reply

      • thank you to person who stated this:
        Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 10:24 AM
        Glad it is coming from someone else so others will realize you weren’t doing any of your research to get attention for yourself as some might purport.

        my reply:
        Exactly my thought…I was like oh shit…I am hearing this…why can’t John Dougherty hear it or Dr Ted Putnam…WHY ME?
        why now…ugh…but I did say I had open door…

        Reply

        • DALE1 IS CORRECT—I HAVE MORE SUPPORT FROM FOLKS READING ONLY THE SITE AND REPLYING TO ME ANOTHER WAY VS POSTING HERE…SEE FROM A PERSON WHO SUPPORTS ME CONTINUING ON…:
          Mon, Oct 19, 2015 at 12:31 PM
          “I didn’t believe in psychics until I met one”—-the person “took an inordinate amount of “heat” from the Christian fundamentalists
          in Prescott”.
          “To those people,” the person “was a “witch”; she was an evil “fool” glorifying herself by
          manipulating Satan, etc., etc.”
          to her it was all just water off a duck’s back.
          So Joy, that’s the attitude you need to cultivate. Just forge ahead and do what
          you have to do. Well, for whatever it’s worth, I do hope this entirely unsolicited
          advice helps you. And thanks for everything you have already done – regarding the
          Yarnell Hill Fire.

          TO ME THAT SOUNDS LIKE THE GENERAL FOLKS VIEWS THAT REACH OUT TO ME…YET EVEN IF ALL 100% COMMUNICATIONS WERE BASHING ME I WOULD STILL SHARE THE SAME AS I DO…I WISH I CAN SHARE MORE AND AT EASE THE PURITY IMMEDIATELY AS IT HAPPENS YET I THINK I HAVE DONE MY VERY BEST CONSIDERING…

          Reply

  12. Thank you RF for the map you sent Sonny and me Sun, Oct 18, 2015 at 7:38 PM (check email Sonny)…I told someone I trust away from cyber world and cells and home so I am not the only one besides Sonny who heard what I heard today…in a way I did say I had an open door for all but this person did not know me or Sonny and as I heard the sharing…it was hard…very hard…shew…From the rough and tumble street life I once saw to the arid terrains I pioneered…I am sure as time goes by…in His time…like Sonny stated MORE will come out of hiding to protect and honor all affected by YHF…and maybe the tables will turn and a flood of information surfaces for the record PUBLIC…I wish I could be pure Dale1…I do…but I have no clue what it all means when a federal judge served a gag like that…what the hell is going on? I got slapped by an order by a local judge and I took it serious so I could not imagine what these people are going through….fighting their own wars internally…maybe Louis L’Amour had it right when he would write…ride along into danger…traveling under an alias…and step back into time…this Investigative Media is much more than some blog area…it is a great place to learn information as well time line the YHF…a great place to come forward and SPEAK UP…Now if I ever end up in court from any affected by YHF as being overly interested in a fire that I eye-witnessed and survived it going a longer way out…I just hit the freaking mother lode today with a REAL freaking person with the highest credentials who was on the fire and told the TRUE story…For me, it was not easy to listen to the words. I hope they all tell their stories as life unfolds…I hope the thundering roars I heard today come hammering down…because it has been a long ride home Louis L’Amour…I think this blog is more than a blog…I will say Sonny is right…I will share with John Dougherty/Dr. Ted Putnam/OSHA original guys we hiked and talked to IN PERSON this account…but the rest…nah—serious…not any homeowner or loved one—this news ain’t coming from me—it needs to be stated as it was told…by the person who was there not third party or hearsay but right there that person was…shew….what is the chances when at 4:59am today I cancelled my time to see Sonny so to be at 2pm…hearing someone was told on a federal level…THANK YOU for sharing today what you did no matter how hard it was to hear it because you just confirmed alot I said on here that more will come forward…really, thank you. Spread the word and have more share…

    Reply

  13. Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

    I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

    From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

    What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

    Reply

    • Sonny I need to think on this.
      The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.
      They were not in charge of the Investigation.
      The only people the Feds could Gag would be their employees.

      There is something quite strange here. Are you sure the State did not do the Gag order?

      The Federal Government has no control over State, County or City Governments. If it was a Federal Investigation then they would be able to require thru supine and Court Order a gag Order on all Witnesses.
      Again this was not a Federal Investigation.
      As Lawyers for their Employees they could Order them only.

      Need a lot more here but very Interesting. Thanks

      Reply

      • we will tell in person the 3 names we mentioned on here how to reach the person who is anonymous to get their own interviews…yes I thought strange too…yet alot he said was not eay to hear…

        Reply

      • Bob said “The Gag order would mean nothing coming from the Feds.”

        Joy said: The person stated “he was served on a federal level not state.” The person stated there are others. The person stated alot but we will allow the person to be interviewed by the pros like the three I mentioned…this is nothing to take lightly either….I mean tomorrow I am sanding furniture and I have no wheels and Sonny would have to be reached separate because he is doing his stuff…but I am here but I cannot meet people out of town…but here…I prefer Sonny to be present for in person talk though..since he was there.

        Reply

        • I do not believe there was a Federal Court involved. or a Federal Investigation.
          It was all handled at the State Level. Maybe there is something we all missed.

          Reply

    • Reply to Sonny post on October 18, 2015 at 6:53 pm

      >> Sonny said…
      >>
      >> I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such
      >> as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged
      >> disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account.
      >> Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss
      >> of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

      Well said, Sonny.

      Reply

  14. First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days

    Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again applying for
    a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It was in yesterdays Paper.

    Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2015 at 6:57 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> First I think it is time for a new chapter– been hard to get on the past few days.

      Agree. This page is now exceeding the limits of some mobile browsers as well.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Second I saw in the Dailey courier Prescott that McDonough is again
      >> applying for a medical retirement due to his mental problems. It
      >> was in yesterdays Paper.

      The story has also made the ABC News affiliate ABC15…

      http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/prescott/survivor-of-deadly-yarnell-hill-fire-applying-for-benefits

      They should just ‘fast track’ the request and go ahead and give it to him.
      He may be ‘unemployable’ for the rest of his life.

      In related news… the “Wildland Firefighter Foundation” aid organization ( based in Boise, Idaho ) that Brendan used to work for as a ‘counselor’ is in the news again as well. Three Board members have quit because the founders ( Vicki Minor and her son Burk ) still won’t do what they promised in response to all the previous financial mismanagement issues. Vicki minor had agreed to hire an independent CFO ( Chief Financial Officer ) but has simply ‘promoted from within’ and moved her own assistant into the job. Board says she isn’t qualified and that Minor just wants to run it like a ‘family business’…. so they quit.

      I don’t think Brendan should have ever even gone to work for them.
      He wasn’t/isn’t qualified to be a ‘counselor’ to anyone.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> Also over on Wildfire today there is a article on the removal of an IC on a
      >> Great Basin Team after complaints were filed by 2 Hot Shot Crews.

      Lots of issues involved here… including complaints now about SAFENET and how some people ‘behind the red wall’ now think it’s not even a good idea to have that kind of an outlet for FFs to even complain about anything.

      Speaking of ‘sole survivors’… also in the WFF news…

      The parents of Daniel Lyon, the only FF to survive from that Engine burnover on Woods Canyon Road ( Twisp Fire ) have just held another press conference after a long period of saying nothing.

      Daniel IS doing better… but he apparently go into some trouble with some infections and it was touch and go for a while.

      He’s had 10 ( TEN ) surgeries since the incident on August 19, 2015… and still a few more to go…. but he’s apparently doing WELL.

      He’s able to do physical REHAB now and he WILL get out of that hospital eventually.

      He only recently even ASKED about his crewmates from that day and his parents finally informed him that he was the only one who didn’t die.

      They also say he has had very little to say about the incident ( even to them ) and he just said he is ‘praying for the families’.

      It’s still a long road ahead for Daniel… but he has enough skin back now that he’s probably no longer in danger of dying from post-burn infections.

      His parents say that, due to the burns to his face area, they still have trouble telling when Daniel is either sobbing… or laughing. He still has to tell them which is which.

      Now all we need to know is what the fuck that Engine was even DOING up that road, at that time, and putting those men directly ABOVE a dynamic, uncontained fire… when even Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller had already issued the warning “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

      Reply

    • Test. Mobile not posting. We have crucial new evidence. Need to talk to John Dougherty…Dr Ted Putnam…OSHA in person immediately. Serious information.

      Reply

      • The time has arrived

        . Ivwill be sharing this information to others in person I trustvnot by phone or anywhere cyber…what God did today was nothing but miraculous

        Reply

    • Indeed Bob Powers, this is a fitting time to begin a new chapter. New information was revealed to Joy and me today at about 2 PM in Prescott. An officer there told us that he had been served a federal order to not discuss the Yarnell Hill Fire and things he witnessed and knew that went on that day. Considering that the investigation into the deaths of 19 of America’s finest has been tampered with this way so that pertinent and vital information to reveal the true causes and factors leading up to their deaths would seem to be a travesty of justice–something that someone in our government with high authority ought to be looking into. The feds that ordered this ought to have someone over them to get to the bottom of why the gag order was put out to dampen the investigation.

      I dare say the white wash is beginning to fade and the real facts of what happened and why are slowly surfacing. The internet indeed is working its wonders–and a number of people are also beginning to reveal things. Sadly the person we spoke to is also in fear of loosing his job and credentials and therefore must remain anonymous. However you will see that many after retirement and those that move on to other jobs will begin to speak their minds and give us facts and information that has not been allowed to surface due to these legal orders if indeed they are legal.

      From what I heard today it is obvious that the information that man has would have legal ramifications against certain of the bosses involved in the fire. Their must be some who are loosing much sleep over their involvement in the fire considering that those persons have worked and angle so that there would be no blame in their game. That good old boy attitude seems to prevail but truth has a way of shining its way through and Karma seems to eat away at those involved in the cover up. I do know from today’s experience that too many are ready to talk and the restrains they are under at this time will eventually wear thin and are already at their breaking point in many cases.

      What we can conclude from sources that are telling us the real facts is that this investigation is far from over. As this man said, the reason he and others were gagged was because certain entities wanted it to appear a certain way to their satisfaction, not to get to allow the people to know the actual facts of how things were played out. He is one fellow I would like to see the FBI interrogate. He, being the officer and reputation he has, would be one to cause an opening into a proper and reliable investigation concerning matters that caused the demise of the 19 firefighters. I believe it would shake up the way things are done in future fire cases such as the Yarnell lightning strike that was allowed to develop into a full fledged disaster. And more importantly it would save future lives on that account. Are not the lives of future men on the fire line more important than the loss of a few jobs due to the negligence we saw with the Yarnell Hill Disaster?

      Reply

  15. **
    ** NEXT MEETING OF THE “YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE’ BOARD” IS OCTOBER 23, 2015

    The official online page where this Arizona PUBLIC Board called the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” is legally required to post notices of meetings, agendas and the ‘minutes’ from all previous meetings has just been updated…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    At the top of the page it now says…

    “The next Site Board Meeting will be on October 23, 2015. The agenda is posted below”

    Just below that… someone also updated the ‘Meeting Dates’ section…

    ———————————————-
    Meeting Dates

    October 23, 2015 (3pm. at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Building, Gladys Gardener room, located at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott)
    ———————————————–

    The AGENDA for this upcoming October 23, 2015 meeting has also been posted… but it is just as worthless as all the previous ‘Agendas’ published since they first established all the ‘subcommittees’.

    Since they first established their ‘subcommittees’… all the published ‘agendas’ ever say is “The subcommittees will present their reports”.

    Absolutely no REAL information about what is going to be discussed, or voted on, at any particular meeting… which is also a violation of Arizona Open Meetings laws. Arizona Law says that ANY issues that are obviously of interest to the ‘the PUBLIC’…. or any important VOTES that are planned… are supposed to be specifically mentioned in an ‘agenda’ so that the PUBLIC has a better chance to attend those meetings.

    Someone has also now UPDATED the ‘blurb’ at the top of that page that recently appeared with says…

    “The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.”

    Apparently the original FORMAT for that line wasn’t good enough for someone… and they decided to BOLDFACE it so it STANDS OUT more than before.

    And even though it is obvious that someone has now paid attention to this website and has tried to bring it ‘up to date’… they are still breaking Arizona Law and have still NOT POSTED the MINUTES from the following two previous Board meetings…

    05/29/2015 ( Their May 5, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).
    09/18/2015 ( Their September 18, 2015 PUBLIC meeting ).

    They are still choosing to break the Arizona laws governing all Arizona State PUBLIC Boards and HIDE the minutes for these two previous meetings.

    The September 9, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

    That is also the meeting where, if Amanda Marsh reported that the families were ‘split’ ( whatever that means ) about what the PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should really look like… then the Board was going to just go ahead an VOTE for themselves about that and set the final ‘access’ rules themselves.

    We still have no idea what Amanda Marsh reported to the Board regarding the family members opinions and/or whether the Board has already set the ‘final access profile’ for the PUBLIC park.

    Reply

    • Sorry, typo above. I typed ‘September 9’ when it should have been ‘September 18’.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board member Amanda Marsh would make some kind of ‘report’ to the Board about her ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ regarding what the final PUBLIC access to the PUBLIC park should look like.

      Reply

  16. **
    ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS DECLARED ‘NOT FIT FOR DUTY’ DUE TO
    ** STRESS RELATED ISSUES FOLLOWING THE YARNELL HILL FIRE.

    Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:04 pm

    >> Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> Joy said… “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”
    >>
    >> That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us.
    >> He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.
    >>
    >> They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    When ADOSH was first contacting CYFD and requesting interviews with their employees who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… they were simply told that CYFD employee Cougan Carothers was not ‘available’ for an interview because he had been on ‘medical leave’ since immediately following the Yarnell Fire due to ‘stress related issues’ as a result of his experiences on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    That situation didn’t change for at least a month and half following the tragedy ( maybe more ).

    Even as late as August 15, 2013, when ADOSH was still asking, they were told that Cougan Carothers was still on ‘medical leave’ and still NOT on the ‘fit for duty’ list.

    CYFD never used the acronym PTSD… but they said directly ( multiple times ) that his ‘medical leave’ was ‘stress related’ and was allowing Carothers to (quote) ‘seek treatment’.

    After the last time they were informed that Cougan Carothers was still ‘on medical leave’ as late as August 15, 2013, they ( ADOSH ) basically just stopped asking about interviewing him.

    There is nothing to indicate exactly WHEN Cougan Carothers was finally taken off ‘medical leave’ and declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    ** THE LONG STORY ( AND THE PROOF )

    Immediately following the Yarnell tragedy… at least TWO Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ) employees who had been working in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 were designated ‘not fit for duty’ due to ‘stress related issues’.

    The ( at least ) two that are known to have been labelled ‘not fit for duty’ were…

    Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery.

    Just over a month after the tragedy ( on August 1, 2013 ), someone named Patty Brookins, who works as a ‘Human Resources Specialist’ for the Central Yavapai Fire District ( CYFD ), responded to an email that was sent to CYFD from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna.

    The original email from ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna that requested this response from Patty Bookins doesn’t seem to be anywhere in the documents that were released by ADOSH… but based on the format and the content of Patty Bookins’ response, that original email from Bruce Hanna MUST have looked something like this…

    ————————————————————————————–
    From: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    To: Patty Brookins, Human Resources Specialist, CYFD
    Sent: ???
    Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

    Hello Ms. Brookins.

    My name is Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator working on the Yarnell Hill Fire investigation.

    We need information regarding ALL CYFD employees who might have worked the Yarnell Hill Fire… including ( but not limited to ) Todd Abel, Gary Cordes, Cougan Carothers, Charlie Reyes, Steve Emery, Matt McFadden, Ryan Ferris, and/or any other CYFD employee who worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    In each case ( and for each employee ) we need to know….

    1) Their full position designation.
    2) What their assignments were in Yarnell.
    3) The full scope of their possible contact(s) with Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots
    4) Their current whereabouts
    5) Whether they are available to be interviewed.

    Thank you in advance for your cooperation.

    Yours;
    Bruce Hanna, OSHA State (AZ-SP)
    ————————————————————————————–

    …or something like that.( since those are the questions Patty Brookins ended up answering for each CYFD employee in HER email response to Bruce Hanna ).

    Actually… even though there is no copy of that original email from Bruce Hanna, the ADOSH ‘Notes’ file that is ‘typed’ and ‘summarizes’ other ‘Notes/emails’ files and that seems to have been written by ADOSH lead investigator Bruce Hanna himself has some entries that refer to this exchange with CYFD HR person Patty Brookins.

    In the online ADOSH investigation documents folder…

    Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

    Which is HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

    From PDF page 7 ( out of 10 pages ) from ADOSH ‘Notes’ document
    named “L3419 Notes redacted.pdf”…
    —————————————————————————————
    CYFD NOTES

    Central Yavapai Fire District
    8555 E Yavapai Rd
    Prescott Valley, AZ 86314
    928-772-7711 Fax 928-772-8800

    Paul Nies – Fire Chief
    Scott Bliss- Fire Chief

    I sent an email to Chief Nies today July 29, 2013 at 1303 requesting a roster of personnel assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire who may have had contact or knowledge of the location of the Granite Mountain Hot Shots on June 30, 2013. I was told by a Peeples Valley Fire Captain that Central Yavapai Fire District had some personnel on Shrine Road on June 30, 2013.

    Central Yavapai Fire District continued;
    I followed up today August 1, 2013 with a telephone call and email to CYPD Human Resources Director Patty Brookins – (928-772-7711 ext 3023). I received a list of personnel employed by Central Yavapai Fire District who were assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.

    Need to interview Field Operations Supervisor Todd Abel and Structure 1 Supervisor Gary Cordes. CYFD Cougan Carothers was assigned to assist Division Zulu Supervisor Rance Marquez in establishing a division break between Division Alpha and Division Zulu.

    Mr. Abel seems to be regularly assigned to wildfires in the west and may not be readily available to be interviewed. Mr. Abel was subsequently interviewed on August 22, 2013. Mr. Cordes is scheduled to be interviewed on September 11, 2013 at 1100.
    —————————————————————————————

    These (typed) ‘summary notes’ never say any additional attempts were made to interview Cougan Carothers, even after he had ( at some point? ) been medically cleared to ‘return to duty’, but the ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS do. ( See below ).

    Patty Brookins ( of CYFD ) responded to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna on August 1, 2013, and her email response says that both Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery were still ( more than a MONTH after the incident ) designated as ‘not fit for duty’ and still undergoing ‘treatment’ for stress related issues related to their participation in the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    She WROTE to Bruce Hanna…

    ———————————————————————————————————
    Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work. Steve Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

    We anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.
    ———————————————————————————————————

    SIDENOTE: The ADOSH call logs ( See below ) show that Cougan Carothers was NOT declared ‘fit for duty’ in the ‘next week’ timeframe mentioned on August 1, 2013. The ADOSH call logs from August 15, 2013 indicate that even 2 weeks after this email… Cougan Carothers had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

    Her ( Patty Brookins’ ) complete August 1 email response to Bruce Hanna is reprinted below.

    Notice below that in her response to Bruce Hanna of ADOSH, Ms. Patty Brooks seems to have already ‘interviewed’ each of the listed CYFD employees and is already providing some pretty good details about what each person’s assignments and responsibilities were on June 30, 2013… and what they did ( or did NOT ) do that day.

    Her email leaves no question that in each case ( and for each CYFD employee ), she ( or someone else ) had ALREADY asked them specifically about their ‘interactions’ with either Eric Marsh or Granite Mountain on the day of the incident, either before or after the deployment.

    If those ‘internal interviews’ that she ( or someone else at CYFD ) had already conducted prior to this email were either recorded or have written emails/responses/logs… that CYFD material would appear to have remained ‘internal’ to CYFD and has never seen the light of day.

    The FULL TEXT of Patty Brookins’ email response to ADOSH investigator Bruce Hanna is posted directly below as the first ‘Reply’ to this posting…

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from above )…

      ** PATTY BROOKINS’ COMPLETE EMAIL SENT TO ADOSH ( BRUCE HANNA )…

      In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

      Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

      Which is HERE…

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

      Filename: “Emails L3419.pdf”

      On PDF page 18 ( of 66 pages )…
      ———————————————————————————————–
      From: Patty Brookins ( xxxxxxxxxxxx ) ( Redacted )
      Sent: Thursday, August 01, 2013 4:09 PM
      To: Hanna, Bruce – OSHA State (AZ-SP)
      Subject: Central Yavapai Fire District

      Mr. Hanna:

      Here is the information you have requested on our employees who were assigned to the Yarnell Hill Fire, with notes about each employee’s position and involvement in the incident on June 30, 2013.

      Todd Abel:
      Joint Operations Chief with Paul Musser. In his capacity as Joint Operations Chief, Captain Abel supervised several Groups and Divisions including Eric Marsh of the Granite Mt. Hotshots. After the blow up event Captain Abel was assigned as the IC for the incident-within-the-incident. He is currently out on another wildland assignment and we are not certain of his return date.

      Gary Cordes:
      Structure Group Supervisor. Chief Cordes had discussions with the Granite Mt. Hotshot crew at the beginning of the shift, on the morning of June 30. We don’t believe he had any contact with them after that.

      Cougan Carothers:
      Strike Team Leader ( trainee ). Chief Carothers did not have contact with the hotshot crew prior to their deaths. He was part of the team that was assigned duties related to preparing for medical treatment and transport operations. Chief Carothers has been off duty for medical issues related to this event, and has not yet been medically cleared to return to work.

      Charlie Reyes:
      Engine Boss of Patrol 59 assigned to Structure Group. He was assigned duties to prepare for medical treatment and transport but returned to structure protection activity after others confirmed the outcome. We don’t believe that Reyes had any contact with the hotshot crew on that day.

      Steve Emery:
      Engine operator ( FF1 ) of Patrol 59. Emery was initially assigned to Structure Group as part of Patrol 59. After the event, Emery was assigned to work with Chief Carothers on duties related to medical treatment and transport operations. He did not have contact with the hotshots prior to their deaths. Emery has also been off duty since the event and has not been medically cleared to return to work.

      Matt McFadden:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. McFadden had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Ryan Ferris:
      Firefighter II of Patrol 59. Ferris also had no interaction at all with the hotshot crew.

      Our understanding is that Chief Cordes and Captain Abel have been interviewed by the the investigative team from Arizona State Forestry Division. We don’t believe that anyone else from our work team has been interviewed.

      Rather than give out their personal contact information, we would ask that you coordinate your interviews through our office. I can be your point of contact for scheduling those interviews.

      As stated above, Captain Abel is currently unavailable due to his wildland assignment, and Chief Carothers and FF Emery are still off duty; however we anticipate that Emery may be released to return to work sometime next week, and Carothers sometime in the following week. They are currently on administrative leave to seek treatment and to allow them time to recover from the critical stress they experienced with their participation in the recovery operations. All others have returned to their regular duties.

      Please let me know if you need anything further. Thank you.

      Patty Brookins
      HR Specialist
      Central Yavapai Fire District
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ( Redacted )
      Office Hours: Tues – Fri 7am to 5pm

      I can think of no more stirring a symbol of man’s humanity to man than a fire engine.
      – Kurt Vonnegut
      ———————————————————————————————–

      So on August 1, 2013 ( a little more than a MONTH after the incident ), CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery had STILL not been declared ‘fit for duty’ because of stress related ‘injuries’ stemming from the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      She said Steve Emery *might* be declared ‘fit for duty’ again the following week… but there was no indication when Cougan Carothers might also be declared ‘fit for duty’.

      The ADOSH PHONE CALL LOGS will be supplied as a ‘Reply’ to this message… and they show that even as late as TWO weeks after this August 1, 2013 email… Cougan Carothers was STILL on ‘medical leave’ and had still not been declared ‘fit for duty’ again.

      Reply

      • ** ADOSH PHONE LOGS PROVE THAT EVEN AS OF AUGUST 15, 2013,
        ** COUGAN CAROTHERS WAS STILL NOT ‘FIT FOR DUTY’.

        An entry in the ADOSH phone call logs also has notes from a conversation with Patty Brookins which confirms that Cougan Carothers was still ‘out on medical leave’ as of August 15, 2013 and would still not be available for an ADOSH interview.

        Patty Brookins said on the phone ( on August 15, 2013 ) that
        (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        In the same online ADOSH investigation documents folder linked to above…

        Dropbox / ADOSH Notes and Emails /

        Which is HERE…

        https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AABe80KXlut_cz_6Ymv7e9gea/ADOSH%20Notes%20and%20Emails?dl=0

        Filename: “L3419 YFD, Peeples Valley, CYFD field notes redacted.pdf”

        From PDF page 26 ( of 32 pages )
        ———————————————————————————-
        TELEPHONE CONTACT LOG

        Item #, Contact Person, Number Called
        Time, Date, Comments

        August 01, 2013…

        1, CYFD Chief Paul Nies, xxx-xxxx

        10:30 AM, 08/01/13 – Left message with Human Resources (HR) Dept.
        CYFD Administrative Offices – 8-5 PM / Monday – Friday.

        2, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:00 PM, 08/01/13 – Human Resources (HR) Dept. – Agreed to supply list of fire personnel assigned to Yarnell Hill Fire.

        12 days later ( August 15, 2013 )…

        3, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        10:00 AM, 08/15/13, Left Message regarding interview schedule + people.

        12:45 PM, 08/15/13, Patty returned my call.
        Todd Abel goes on vacation next week but may be available.
        Gary Cordes shoud be available.
        Cougan Carothers is still out on medical.
        Patty will email availability.

        4, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        03:13 PM, 08/15/13, Left message. Need to know if Gary Cordes
        is available for 08/22/13 interview. No time scheduled yet.

        14 days later ( August 29, 2013 )…

        5, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        12:12 PM, 08/29/13, ? time from ? Gary Cordes interview.
        May need 2 week ? to ensure WFA could assist to ??

        6 days later ( September 4, 2013 )…

        6, Patty Brookins, xxx-xxxx

        01:30 PM, 09/04/13 – Set up Gary Cordes interview week of Sept 9-12.
        ———————————————————————————-

        So… at 12:45 PM on August 15, 2013, Patty Brookins was still telling ADOSH that (quote) “Cougan Carothers is still out on medical”.

        That means he did NOT ‘return to duty’ in the week following her August 1, 2013 email to Bruce Hanna, as she had originally predicted he might.

        Following this August 15, 2013 communication, ADOSH just went ahead with the CYFD employee(s) Todd Abel and Gary Cordes interview(s) and stopped asking about ‘Cougan Carothers’ or ‘Steve Emery’.

        They also never pursued an interview with CYFD employee ( and Captain of Engine 59 ) Charile Reyes… who Gary Cordes told ADOSH was the one first informed him that Granite Mountain had deployed… when Cordes finally reached the RHR parking lot circa 4:50 PM.

        Cordes also told ADOSH his initial response to Captain Reyes was ( paraphrasing ) “BULLSHIT! They are in that bomb-proof ranch safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

        Captain Reyes then (supposedly) told Cordes….

        “No. They never made it. They got cut off”.

        Reply

    • ** OPS1 TODD ABEL CONFIRMED THAT CYFD EMPLOYEES COUGAN
      ** CAROTHERS AND STEVE EMERY WERE ON THE ‘TEAM’ THAT HAD
      ** TO CONFIRM THE BODY COUNT AT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE.

      OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed ( in his ADOSH interview ) that the two CYFD employees Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery who were placed on ‘stress related medical leave’ immediately after the Yarnell tragedy were, in fact, on that team that had to confirm the body count at the deployment site.

      From Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview on August 22, 2013…

      A = OPS1 Todd Abel
      ———————————————————————————–
      2335 A: When – when the fire hit the – his trigger point. Um, and he bailed off and, uh,
      2336 it – so we – we were able to get a manifest from – from, uh, Brandan. Um, and
      2337 at the same time Jason Klasen calls me on my phone, gives me an address to
      2338 Helms’ place. Myself, Dean Stewart, Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery
      2339 start working out way back in here to go tie in with these guys. Um,
      2340 obviously, you can imagine it’s pretty chaotic in there. We get through and,
      2341 uh, go out to the ranch. Walk out there, you know, once again confirm that
      2342 we had 19.
      ———————————————————————————–

      So OPS1 Todd Abel confirmed to ADOSH that after the bodies were found, he and 3 others ( Abel’s former engine-mate and close friend Dean Stewart, CYFD employee Cougan Carothers and CYFD employee Steve Emery ) were then the first ones out there at the deployment site ( after Eric Tarr, Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) to SEE and CONFIRM the body count.

      That means Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery definitely saw ‘all there was to see’ that day… and might have even been the ones who were told to put the ‘tarps’ over ALL the bodies which the YCSO detectives would then have to remove when they arrived around dawn the next morning.

      Reply

  17. many times I have tried to come to investigative media to some libraries blocked access to the site and even at home base I got 502 error messages…finally able to get here…I wanted to since I am not caving with Sonny right now share to all about the whole journey from the get go to being on the Yarnell hill…

    Long before I met Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny)—I had a dream.

    jotted it here http://www.zazzle.com/texes_cousin_big_hat_rex_postcard-239922776172529398

    Product ID: 239922776172529398
    Created on: 6/6/2011 8:25 PM
    Texe’s Cousin…bIg hAt rEx Postcard
    description:
    backyard pals…our regal horned toad lizards playing around as I water…why I name them the way I do has to do with my hiking pals as well as dreams and recently I dreamnt I’d meet a man name Texe which means “those who are friends” so maybe it means I will meet more friends…that would be nice after all my losses…

    ———————————————————-
    All Summer 2011 Kat in Wickenburg—school teacher wanted me to look at her senior match profile…I kept saying “not interested”…”why not meet someone IN PERSON”…”aren’t you married?”…
    All along I was not interested until 8/17/11 at 16:48 I began to try to see her profiles but it required a log in…it took me many hours to send my license to verify me and create the log in necessities (DesertxWalker) to review her page and SonnyG was one…it was such a unique profile that to me assessing it I thought he is looking for a camp style gal or a woman seeking papers from another country…I joked about it. I like to talk history/numismatics/gunsmithing/reloading/ballistics/nancy drew/hardy boys kinda gal and he liked to talk about his life/Indian artifacts/Sitchen and we always talked about his hikes west of the Grand Canyon and mine here in Congress area. He said I was really ignorant. The drifts and mines I went to that in September 2011 he was sending me dangerous cave pamphlets and that I should never go in them alone.
    —————————————————-
    Tue, Aug 23, 2011 at 19:01 Sonny’s first message 🙂 and my first one was 8/23 16:49…
    I met my seniormatch penpal and slept there west of the Grand Canyon from 9/28-10/1/11 and he is a perfect genuine classy guy…and I really had a wonderful time learning about his rocks and just loved being there…meeting all the folks he sees ever so often…good man, good friends and loved the dogs/area…
    met on senior match 8/23 and very unlike me.
    met in person 9/28-10/1
    met again 10/3-10/8
    met and still known since 10/12/11 pioneering all over Arizona, New Mexico, Utah, Nevada—caves and all—
    ———————————————————–
    I KNOW where alot of Army and Indian artifacts are but I leave them there—when I told two people— Kenny Slomkowski of Congress Arizona was one and he said he did not take the very unique Indian hatchet so it sucked someone I trusted on the trails that knew about it took it but denied it…
    I learned I had to limit how I described the terrain as I hiked people and I learned I could not be PURE and that is pretty much how the I M page has transitioned for me yet Dale1 likes to take stabs that I thought the hikers like to tell it all…be pure… much resembles dialect of an email I got Tue, May 26, 2015 at 11:35 AM where one of our old bloggers on IM stated to me”it is not fair and pure for you not to.” and the word pure is used alot from this old blogger almost in a sliced way versus a person wanting to find the truth on the cell records as originally asked from this blogger what the hikers would like to see from this all way back in November 2013…
    ——————————————————————-
    I thought we lived in a world that was BIG BROTHER and nothing is sacred and secretive anymore—besides the secretive ways of the board how they publicly share the minutes to the Yarnell Memorial in their unlawful ways yet getting away with it or letting the public know where and when these meetings are seems unjust—and to label the area they died sacred when others have died in that very area before the 19 as well as many have fallen over time and their area as Marti Reed shared her brother’s story are not restricted like this 320 acres yet we can pick and choose who can go to the area like Holly Neill can but Gary Olsen—nah, he can wait for the GRAND OPENING—
    ———————————————————————
    I have done some genius actions in my time but the aftermath of the YHF has not been one…and even the times I came up with something I was the host channeling in from an unknown…I was born at St Joseph’s in Phoenix…I lived on Van Buren street and through the years made my way around all of Phoenix (N,S,W,E)…I was in kindergarten and made my “circus family” way to the class room always out with nature vs sitting in the classroom…my extremely giant father from Staten Island goes to the principal’s office saying “I heard you are calling my daughter retarded” in a very THICK NY accent…and the principal with wooping board paddle hanging on wall behind stated “No, I called you in because she has been tardy”…”your daughter seems to think the classroom is the outdoors”…
    REALITY CHECK…after elementary, junior high, hs and some college because I dropped out in NJ of college to do culinary and then head back to Arizona…MY HOME IS THE DESERT not a subdivision way the world wants to conform us…I can unwind there. Sonny will always be the ideal person on the trails for my health but his way to unwind= wine…he said Jesus turned water into wine…
    “I am what I am”…
    my father always said the above drunk…yet I say it here today sober that I am what I am…nothing special yet at least I don’t journey along saying something I am not…to GAIN…or pretend to be something else…I am simple ol housewife Joy…
    ———————————————————–
    Also there is some who want to have a view that I am into necromancy and that is sad to take what I say on this page and create that dramatic image yet its not reality. Just because I do not have any training in WHO IS THE AUDIENCE like an author or writer or journalist would…I share ME…but remember in the end I am not making a book or movie but the ones talking about me like such ARE…
    what happen to me…felt much like how Saul in the bible set up a woman.
    Because I had a request from another—I set appt up–than I got the reply that became world wide known—yet what a reply when this person does not even know me and my background but I can state there was no bad intentions just helping others reach clarity…Modern America are not really shocked much anymore but in the day (middle ages) I can see my help with no bad intentions could of had me burned at the stake…

    People of religion background…I am at bible studies this week and Sonny who has a bathide in religion/psychology/geology told me alot in the start of us knowing each other about ET/UFO and Sitchin stuff (I was skeptic before going into these caves on the topic) and how he was born to be a miner for the Gods. He loves mining. So Sonny mentions eloihm. Yet from my view wouldn’t it be PERCEPTION of such being you have this ELOIHM (plural noun) accompanying a singular verb.
    YOU= ME
    YOU= YOU
    singular
    yet YOU can mean plural like YOU out there—the audience of more than one.
    I also think alot of the aftermath of the YHF is simply perception…like where you sitting at in all this…

    ———————————————————–
    So we know 30% maybe on Gita Plateau and not much on the rest–right—why? with all our technology?
    That is how I sum up the YHF…why with all our technology couldn’t investigators GRAB those cell records to piece this as well as the ALIVE missing elements speaking up—why make a narrative when such a pattern of lives being lost and homes being burnt…
    Also how many of the wildfires are just happening to be near caves…hmmm…
    ————————————————————-
    How is it modern world; every action is being recorded yet with a stroke of a key we can research any topic; unlimited access…yet we cannot have the missing elements speak up and just hope for a leak some way some day and reason I keep gathering new accounts.
    ————————————————————-
    I have been in all kinds of caves…and in that…you begin to wonder about the things you eyewitness in these caves…especially the vertical cliff ones…
    ———————————————————–
    Sonny can you come on here and write about the aliens you met long ago in New Mexico; what town was it?
    —2-3ft tall with military helmets; similiar to nazi helmets—faces hard to see at dusk carrying weapons.
    you could not get close; 40-50 yards only. They could go through things much like a hologram.
    Explain the way they induced your mind, Sonny.
    he took a lie detector test and JUST WEEKS before the 19 men died Paramount CBS pictures interviewed us June 2013 on the topic of aliens and the photos I captured and what Sonny saw…
    ————–
    than let’s mention this topic on caves…an old prospector who visited my town from Montana every snowbird season would pick up desert trinkets eventually almost putting together a full pottery pot except missed a few missing pieces…I followed a family of owls one day to a vertical cliff cave miles away from where the old man got his pieces and in that cave I saw pieces and alerted him because I leave that stuff there—he eventually had someone go get them and it was the missing pieces—
    I feel by ME keeping at gathering information on YHF that maybe some day the right account will complete the puzzle and so even though Sonny thinks there is nothing else to do…we did our part…I feel it should be EVERYONES part to leave the door wide open.
    ————————-
    Sonny I wish you can come on here and share about the alien rock/meteorites you had me drive VERY FAR to make sure noone discovers them…what are they? why did you buy a $2,000 or so microscope just to analyze it and also had paid top mineralogists to examine it.
    Sonny KNOWS his shit and his minerals and was known as the Cashes Clay of mining…
    he was top paid in his field.
    I really want to go back there Sonny and talk about that and what was the rock formation in the mine near where the men died…
    ———————————————–
    At Bashas last night when I was with Sonny—went to Wickenburg for animals and feed—
    we bumped into a person near Helms and asked:

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON Deer Track/Ridgeway area:

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially, blow horns. mumbling man. atvs. no knock on doors and way too late for even them being on that road alerting them for the homes were on fire when this was happening. This person knows alot more than shared and has probably the best account to date but wants to move away and remain anonymous.

    did any part of your area burn?

    all of it and then some.

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles?

    yes. little too late.

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    don’t even bother…they don’t care.

    Reply

  18. a lady told me yesterday at Congress grocery—” I realize you have heard warnings similar to this one before, but this must be taken seriously! This information should NOT be ignored! As we speak, many elements are conspiring and you may not be aware of what they are, or the fact they are DICTATING your life path. However, they are and they do! “—the local lady is one of those crystal woosh Sedona kinds and I replied as I looked around to make sure it was me…it was and I just kept walking disregarding and not acknowledging her statement was meant for or to me and asked when dog groomer was due in as I passed by…

    QUESTIONS ASKED TO SOMEONE ON NORTON WAY
    (you want actual full name of person, she permitted me to state it and I will to main bloggers from day one via email):

    Date: Oct 15, 2015 7:56 AM

    my question: were you home that weekend of the Yarnell fire?

    reply: i was home,

    my question: were you asked to evacuate?

    reply: not officially,

    did any part of your area burn?

    no,

    Did you see any fire people/vehicles on Norton Way?

    no,

    Can I share any answers with investigators…the information given to me publicly or privately?

    yes.

    how is your petition going?

    I collected 5,800 or so sigs. Met with Karen Fann and presented them to her along with educational material regarding trapping. Asked her to sponsor a bill to ban use of these traps anywhere. She was very friendly and interested, but said that to sponsor a bill involved many votes by the Arizona legislature. She will let me know.

    Reply

  19. BOOK UPDATE:

    Thu, Oct 15, 2015 at 12:55 PM
    Hello, everyone. For some of you, it has been a while since we last spoke. For others, it was just a few days ago. Please know that none of you have been forgotten.

    This e-mail is going to close friends of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots and a handful of other people who had a big role in helping me with my book. I’ve gotten to meet all of the Hotshots’ families during the more than two years I have spent reporting and writing the book and many of their coworkers and friends. Through each of them — and through each of you — I got to know a lot about fire, weather and each of the 19 men we lost. They have taught me so much — about the meaning of brotherhood, the importance of loyalty, the depth of love and devotion for work and for family. I have no words to express how thankful I am to all of you for sharing your knowledge with me.

    I invite you all to visit my Website, http://www.fernandasantosbooks.com, and sign up to receive the newsletter, which is how I’ll keep folks who become part of the mailing list updated on the book’s release, events and readings. Also, under “Articles,” I’ll file periodical posts containing short lessons I learned while reporting and writing the book. The first one, called “Carrying our loads,” is already up. Please, read and comment. And if you like what you see, tell others to join the mailing list, too. We can also connect through my Facebook page — https://www.facebook.com/FernandaSantosBooks.

    The title of my book is The Fire Line: The Granite Mountain Hotshots and One of the Deadliest Days in American Firefighting. It is scheduled for release in May 2016 by Flatiron Books, a division of Macmillan, North America’s largest book publisher.

    My hope is that in my book, readers will find the same inspiration I have found to make every day matter, but also to ask the right questions when it comes to pushing for changes in the way we fight wildfires. My hope is that through my book, we’ll be able to start a conversation so that the story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots doesn’t forever live as a tragic story only. In this individualistic world we live in — selfish world, perhaps — I want their story to serve as an example of the power of teamwork and unity.

    Always feel free to write to me or call. My cell phone number is (917) 763-9876. If I don’t answer it’s because I’m on assignment — I returned to my regular New York Times duties in June — or because I’m busy with my daughter, Flora, who believes the guys are stars in the sky, just like I do.

    I hope to have you by my side as this journey continues. Because nothing is accomplished by one individual alone. As Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed used to say, we’re only as strong as our weakest link.

    My warmest regards,

    Fernanda.

    Reply

    • Thanks for that ‘heads up’ about this new planned book release, Joy.

      On the surface of it… it sounds like it’s not going to be much different from the Kyle Dickman book.

      I hope that is not the case.

      We shall see.

      Reply

  20. I was all packed…geared to shave my head…went for a long walk and hike today in Congress…ran into alot of faces today…like a Congress reunion…so many asked what’s new and I just said heading west to do my hair—“oh yeah…how?” and I replied probably number four on the man’s clippers—-they thought I was kidding…you see this Fall I really wanted to go to the Heights Church bible study program but Sonny thought it would be a bad idea because Willis and Donut go there…I explained I wanted to go to bible studies not see them— women’s not men’s—I liked the topic I was writing to one of the ladies from there at the Heights church—sounded cool. I would have no way to get there so I let it go—the guy who bought my Suzuki Savage was riding a kid’s bike and I thought where is my bike??? and he replied he had a mishap on it in Santa Maria…”oh my”…when I sold it it was showroom quality…oh well…I needed the funds for medical/labs/medical massages…you got to do what you have to do…well earlier this year one of Arizona’s top lawyers told me to darken my hair and I followed the advice and well I got BANGRY (angry about my bangs done wrong—way wrong) and the hair color was suppose to wash out…going from a level mix of 7.5-9 down to level one…darkest level of hair color–dark black with touch of reds…I could not handle looking in the mirror because I saw no signs of my natural dirty blonde golden locks…I wanted to shave it earlier this year and held off hoping the crap they glazed my hair with would wash out and it didn’t and I did an old school remedy recipe of a little of this and that (baking soda and vitamin c) to lift the color to a level 7 but I went to a no color orange nasty hue and so had to die it a dark blonde…the whole lawyer advice sucked especially when my appeals was denied…and ruined the hair to like straw—really??? So that is why I wanted to just shave it and start fresh…I was offered a master level FREE haircut at the women’s expo last Sunday but my gut did not much connect to any of the ones’ servicing such…anyways I guess slowly it will grow and slowly I will keep cutting 4-5 inches and eventually it will be okay…back to the kid that had bought my bike…he said he was heading to church…I said on Wed? and he replied bible studies…I said where and he said Grace Bible..>I said with Pastor Dave and he said yes…I told him I tried it a decade ago…hard to get me in a building never the less with that jokester…but who goes and he said…I thought to see ol faces I may so I said I had to go shave my head but maybe stop by…the lady who was going to do it had note on door that Mike needed her…be back later…so I went to dog groomer and she was done for the day but I would of let her shave it because I could not do it myself…and so I went to get a tea and that kid was there and I am telling the owner how I am like the comic strip— family circusing my way to a bible study…not exactly a direct path to it…the owner said “do you believe Joy?” and I explained I use to be a huge part in church…platformed in singing…taught bible studies and did workshops and seminars but when I kept losing people I loved and kept seeing less individualism and more system…I got lost…or never had a sound deeply rooted system…and it seem I carried a scale of judgement on the profess/confess ones…I always loved I Corinthians 13 and Romans 12…
    well anyways…I finally end up at the church—late of course—and warmly welcomed and great to see ol’ familiar faces and pastor Dave was “right on”…he made a joke the building was still standing after I got in because he did further heavier duty framing/construction since my last visit…and another time he said in the beginning it was Adam and Eve and God and I whispered—and the serpent—and he said “sure you would say that Joy”…I am known in Congress as “snake magnet” and snake re locator for free so it made some giggle…when we are going over the books of the bible and he said I am going to name a book and you tell me what is the next book or the before book…he went around the room to everyone…some were not doing so swell…when he got to me..I joked and said my life is rusty and my bible is dusty…doubt I can tell ya…He said what book comes after Exodus? I do not know how but quickly I said Leviticus…I did not know if it just STUCK in my mind because of Debra’s old email but I got it right…I was floored when he recognized how come this lady Joy who has not stepped in this building in ten years got it right but regulars got it wrong…as he said that I thought…There are 66 books in the Bible – 39 in the Old Testament and 27 in the New Testament. All of a sudden I was naming in my head all of them…so my bible is dusty and my life is rusty but my memory is still sharp—GUESS WHAT THE TOPIC WAS ABOUT?
    Good Marriage…first thing I think of is how we all look upon another and judge another for how we lead our lives and marriages like Sonny who can be down right cruel in his comments saying how can any man let his wife go pioneer with another man…I thought well you are safe Sonny…you been married six times…you have a bat hide in religion…you got skills and pure knowledge how to pioneer and I have seizures and pass out and alot of health stuff…so why not…I don’t see those others or you paying my bills so how I live my life is really not anyone’s business or right to judge…
    The funny part of the bible study was not about my marriage to John but to Jesus/God…GOOD MARRIAGE…We (all of us) are the bride of Christ and He is the groom. Seems kinda weird for me—
    when every one claims to be God’s church of so many faiths/beliefs/differ widely in biblical interpretation/practices…it seems impossible for the honest seeker of truth to investigate the claims of each one. I read Revelation 12 and 14. I read Revelation 12:1-17 before beginning my journey of discovery into these transforming truths. Simple Formulas. It was a longer bible studies than I thought…but reflecting back I noticed NOT ONCE during it did I think of the YHF…I was focused and paying attention…it felt good…yet I got a call from Sonny couple times during the studies and I usually take his calls due to his health but I found myself saying Lord I am going to let Sonny know I will call immediately after this…seem like pastor had diarrhea of the mouth as it seem to go on but I can tell you I wanted to hear more…every book has a dating mechanism…a time line…and really people should not just READ investigative media…they should come on here and publicly THANK each and everyone of us for never giving up on these men and all affected by the YHF…and trying to give the proper time line and openly without fear go over and over and discuss and disagree but we are doing PUBLIC not private and with most coming here with full names…by the way sorry Dale1…if I seem to give ya hard time and not others who do not have full name on IM…it is just I have a lack of trust on a few old bloggers and I just want to make sure you were not them…John Dougherty really deserves a thank you too. He really went deep and asked the hard questions in interviews not glazing it to appear how one would like it to be so thank you John Dougherty. I will never understand the begats in the bible…seems more like a good way to fall asleep…Adam at 130 y.o. begat Seth and lived after Seth 800 years…okay, so when you pay attention and realize all the numbers add them together and you have the timeline from creation to flood etc….I reckon that is exactly what we all are doing here on I M…trying to piece the time lines to properly assess the YHF since the SAIT did such a great disservice to all…so maybe in the end after it is all said and done…maybe people reading this get that…sure John MacLean and his research team are doing the same with their selective private not public groups but that is to create a book to make profit but what we have here is a living book never receiving a dime…day to day as we live our lives we still come to the old campfire here…
    we don’t want to come off as we have been labelled as obsessed or conspiracy theorists but we are doing the right thing by trying to gather as much information from every moment to that horrific weekend. Thank you everyone who writes here…more should come here and not JUST READ or SKIM but engage…I think it is time…

    Sometimes people keep information within, either because they are ashamed or really worried how others might react or because they do not want to hurt peoples feelings or may harm a relationship or career…In my first experience of social media here I have to learn sometimes the best reaction is no reaction or no reply—I think we are ready for the missing elements to open up now…

    The area I am restricted from the Weavers—
    if you ever go up there and gaze out on the valley below—-
    What a contrast! One place is the top of the world, the other the bottom. One place is perpetually cool, the other relentlessly hot. I miss the Weavers…I guess that is why I get frustrated at times…because I do miss them and what it has to offer…

    In my transitioning this past week, I have slept pretty good but not yet rested…been letting locals know of http://ycsoaz.sheltertrack.com/Public/Default.aspx where you really SHOULD register your pet because the locals stories I am hearing…I do not want to get into it but new system they are engaging in…another right and freedom robbed of us…when have you ever heard that the police dept needs to know how many pets you own…or register a cat???

    good night.

    Reply

  21. i can send you email joy wass your addy???….. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.

    Reply

    • dale1 says

      October 13, 2015 at 3:41 pm

      i can send you email joy wass your addy???…JUST CALL THAT NUMBER AND LEAVE ME AN ADDY AND I WILL SEND YOU THE EMAILS—.. you can email me the picturs an i can try todo a dropboxss if someeone else wont….//.THAT WOULD BE FINE. WITH MY TRANSITIONING OFF THE TRAILS I WILL NOT POST MY ADDY HERE.

      Reply

        • I use current cell to retrieve messages off the 480 cell and again this goes for anyone I do not know…I am not going to email ya without a voice saying this is my email addy so it is my kinda captcha security—and what you are looking to receive via email…

          plus folks who diss me as you have sided for another when not listening or knowing all the sides and you seem to be partial to just Holly—tell me why should I make the effort for you just because you posted some email addy for the world.

          I will think on it—

          Reply

          • sharing you pics or only with some?? hikers wanted all out ther… its ok….donnot email me if ya donnot want….. i donnt diss on u. not me style. dunno you or holley…,,,.. okkk??//

            Reply

            • dale1 says

              October 13, 2015 at 5:42 pm

              sharing you picsSURE—CALL OR STOP BY—MY ONLINE LIFE IS DIFFERENT THAN IN PERSON.

              or only with some?? ANYONE I SENT IT TO CAN SEE YOUR EMAIL AND DO IT

              hikers wanted all out ther
              NO IF SOMEONE SAYS SOMETHING…FOLLOW THROUGH IS ALL…AND I DID NOT SAY POST ADDY TO WORLD—I SAID CALL…I AM DONE WITH OTHERS NOT SHARING WHO THEY R TO ME YET EXPECT ME TO INCLUDE THEM… its ok…GLAD ITS OK.donnot email me if ya donnot wantEXACTLY…GIVE ME A VOICEMAIL WITH VERBAL REQUEST SO I KNOW YOU ARE NOT OLD TIME BLOGGERS UNDER NEW ID….. i donnt diss on u. YOU HAVE BEEN PARTIALnot me style. I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT YET WANNA ENGAGE ON FIRE THAN TALK TO ME FIRST NOT CYBER TALK—dunno you or holley…,,,..SHE IS A FINE LADY; HOLLY…ME; I AM HARD HEADED STUBBORN …TALK IN CIRCLES…RIDDLES AND GETTING READY TO PACK FOR HOLLYWOOD TO SEE OL PALS TO SHAVE MY HEAD AND HAVE ANOTHER KICK ASS DAY LIKE SUNDAY AND TRYING TO FIND A CERTAIN EMAIL SO I KNOW THE REGULARS AND WELL THEY TALKED ABOUT ANNE MARIE AND I ALERTED HER AND SHE REPLIED… okkk??//SWELL

              Reply

              • I hope you understand I am not trying to omit you—just need a voice since you cannot be on here with a full name so I know you are not an ol’ blogger under new id—if you cannot provide that than to me why out of my life and day and time take the effort for you if you cannot for me—ANYONE can quickly go make up an email addy just to receive an email—the main bloggers pretty much know another and communicate with another outside I M—so we all know each others ups and downs—
                I prefer my email addy not to be out right now after an Arizona State prosecutor fair warned me of a killer being let loose and for me to lay low…I have to explain this to Sonny and to you all—Marti knows what I mean—it seems just so darn easy to throw in the towel…walk away…Sonny seems to think as well as Grant Scott McKee—OK SO WHAT IF YOU PIECE THE PUZZLE—it does not bring back these men or his son or the homes and the pets and wildlife—and as Sonny said it for damn sure is not going to change the way they fight wildfires—Sonny really clicks with Gary’s way of thinking—I have to have HOPE because I smelled the death on those Weavers and the osha men and Eric Tarr and others understand what I am saying here…these men deserve the curtains open on all areas of this fire…they do deserve it.

                Reply

  22. I seriously could scream at the sadness of this here YHF aftermath and the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire…19 men died and so many homeowners lives changed too…so many lives changed…mine has…

    My focus today is to go through files ONLY…not even one ounce of me wants a visit or to visit anyone…
    seems every single time locals here I am off the trails with Sonny they have to call or text and tell me his life and not interested—or they want to visit or me visit and well I need some time to finally get these photos public that I have seen over time—
    I know locals read I M so I m publicly asking you all to live YOUR life and leave me out of the loop especially what Sonny is up to—
    Thank You.

    Reply

    • Joy-

      “the lack of cooperation from the very people who fought on that fire”

      That’s why I don’t think Cougan Carothers will cooperate with either you or us. He refused to cooperate with the ADOSH Investigation.

      They all stand safely and staunchly behind the Red Fire Wall.

      Reply

  23. joy where the link for dropbox pictures from annemarie…. i not seen them r they heer???…/// thankks///..
    r there 3 pictures by her annemarie?>…

    Reply

    • I have not led an organized online life for 4+ years now because of being on the trails-
      pioneering and caving and whatever else you can label it—
      I learned to dropbox from Marti and John D. earlier this year
      I am not spending the time today to do that because I am really trying to find six homeowners firefighter vehicle photos that I never had chance to email or post because of being on trails with Sonny so that is my focus than Norton Way but the main bloggers from the start I did forward the emails—so they can if they choose to do so—

      joy a. collura says

      October 13, 2015 at 1:16 pm

      resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
      Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
      To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

      Reply

      • joy whos the main bloggers..///?? being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online not sharing themmmm you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from you but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ why

        Reply

        • dale1 says

          October 13, 2015 at 2:20 pm

          joy whos the main bloggers..///??BETTER QUESTION- WHO ARE YOU?

          GO BACK TO JULY 2013 AND READ EACH CHAPTER AND SEE WHO HAS BEEN WRITING—I AM NOT DOING THE RESEARCH FOR YOU TO ANSWER YOU WHO ARE THE MAIN ONES—

          being honest nobdody put the annemaire pics online AND REALLY TODAY I AM NOT GOING TO ENGAGE WITH YOU BECAUSE AGAIN YOU ARE DALE1—CALL ME (480) 280-5813 AND LEAVE ME A WAY TO REACH YOU AND THAN WE CAN TALK ON GETTING YOU FIXED UP ON YOUR OWN SET OF EMAILS BUT OF ALL THE FREAKING PEOPLE ON TOPIC OF POSTING PHOTOS I DO NOT HAVE TO DO SHIT—I HAVE A COURT ORDER OVER ME SO I AM LIMITED—MY NAME IS OUT THERE AS THE EYEWITNESS AND SO MUCH MORE—WHERE IS YOUR NAME? DALE FREAKING ONE.

          not sharing themmmm DUH…I JUST DID…MANY PEOPLE HAVE IT—JUST CALL ME AND GIVE ME A CONTACT WAY TO KNOW WHO YOU ARE—THAN YOU CAN TOO—

          you do not like when holly Neel withholds intel from youYES, THAT IS GOING BACK IN HISTORY WHEN A WOMAN TELLS JOY “YOU GET INFORMATION AND TELL ME RIGHT AWAY AND I WILL DO THE SAME FOR YOU…”…THAT MY FRIEND WAS A ONE WAY ROAD I LED— but ur not sharing annemarie pictures here ??….,,,/ whyWHY SHOULD I…THE RIGHT PEOPLE GOT IT…IF THEY WANT TO SHARE THEY CAN…

          AGAIN I TOLD YOU AWHILE BACK I DON’T HAVE TIME FOR THE ONES WHO DO NOT LET ME KNOW WHO THEY ARE OFFLINE HERE IN SOME FASHION…GOT IT…YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN THERE—GO TO YARNELL AND ASK HER YOURSELF

          Reply

  24. Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
    >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
    >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

    Yep. Sure does.

    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

    At 4:45 PM ( time confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant… where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM.

    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

    If he didn’t leave that ‘observation point’ right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

    We would also know now that Gary Cordes must have been IN his vehicle for pretty much ALL of that critical radio traffic that was about to happen between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM… including all the captures of Cordes himself talking on the radio in those crucial 29 minutes and telling Blue Ridge to “Get out to the highway” and then him telling Tyson Esquibel to (paraphrasing) “Send some engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch and make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”… and all the other things we hear Cordes saying in that 29 minute timeframe.

    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch House Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in that bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”. Captain Reyes then told him “No… they never made it. They got cut off”…

    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began… and that might be why Cordes seems to just be standing there STARING off to the WEST.

    Reply

    • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the
      >> side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that
      >> neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

      Yep. Sure does.

      It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

      REPLY;
      I AGREE WITH WWTKTT BECAUSE OF HOMEOWNERS TELLING ME THEIR ACCOUNTS—IT DOES NOT MATCH UP—YOU ARE RIGHT AND I WROTE ABOUT THAT AWHILE BACK

      Reply

    • So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) between 4:16 PM and 4:45 PM when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

      IN SOME ACCOUNTS PEOPLE STATED THEY SAW HIM AT THE OLD BANK AREA WHICH IS NOW THE FIRE DEPT OFFICE

      Reply

      • resending you all the fire pics of Anna Marie sends me to your emails so check your boxes—
        Tue, Oct 13, 2015 at 1:13 PM she sent an email and I will forward it.
        To those who want the photos—if Sonny keeps shutting me off like he is and I am home not on trails than I got the time to do that—just not sure if I have the mifi—at 90% until 18th—

        Reply

    • If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate… but not enough time for much more than that.

      REPLY—I WAS GOING TO GO TO YARNELL BUT HAD REAL BAD SPELL THIS AM BUT WWTKTT—I WILL GET BACK TO YOU ON THIS—I WILL BRING GARY CORDES PHOTO TO NORTON WAY BECAUSE I KNOW MANY ON THE STREET—THE STRANGE PART IS NOONE HAS EVER CONTACTED CHUCK TIDEY AND ASKED HIM…HIS PUBLIC EMAIL IS [email protected]…MAYBE IF YOU ASK HIM DIRECT IF GARY WAS STATIONED AT CHUCK’S HOME…CHUCK IS ON THE CHAMBER OF COMMERCE AND HAS SERIOUS HEALTH CONCERNS AND IS ON “BOTH” MEMORIAL BOARDS. HE ALSO IS CAPTURED IN ALOT OF HOMEOWNERS PHOTOS INCLUDING MY OWN SET AND YET HE TOLD SONNY STUFF AT THE LEGION ONE TIME SO I ALWAYS FELT HOW COME HE IS NOT IN THE SAIR…SEEMS LIKE A PRETTY IMPORTANT ACCOUNT BEING N AIR GUY AND ALL…I THINK HE COULD HELP ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS IF ANYONE WAS LOCATED AT HIS HOME AT THE TIME—THEY SOLD BUT THEY USE TO LIVE HERE:

      http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/16695-W-Cross-Way-Yarnell-AZ/87933181_zpid/

      I ALSO THINK THE FOLLOWING ADDRESSES AND THEIR ACCOUNT ON NORTON/THE AREA SHOULD BE PART OF THE INVESTIGATION OF YHF:22430 S Hackberry St,
      22076 S Norton Way, 22122 S Norton Way, 16695 W Cross Way,16625 W Cross Way, 16650 W Cross Way, 16482 W Norton Way, 16495 W Norton Way, 22183 S Norton Way, 22196 S Norton Way, 16894 W Shrine Dr, 1014.47+ ACRES OF REX’S, WHERE WE STAYED AFTER THE FIRE AT PHIL’S–21974 S State Route 89, 16366 W Norton Way, 16310 W Norton Way, 16276 W Norton Way, 21845 S State Route 89, 16049 W Allen Way, 22118 S White Ln, 17070 W West Way, 22611 S Lakewood Dr, 22425 S Sesame St,22622 S Sesame St , 17601 W Boulder Springs Trl , 22766 S Ridgeway, 17564 W Deertrack Dr, 17578 W Deertrack Dr,22783 S Ridgeway ETC…

      Reply

    • So I’m letting all the marbles in my head re-organize themselves. Mostly based on Todd Abel’s narrative. That helps, thank you. Honestly, I had nothing solid to counter my wondering (which I posted periodically) why TF Cougan Carothers was up there when Joy took those photos (to which I never got any response). And I had several things solidifying (both images and testimony) Rance and Cougan’s coziness (and possible mutual protection also), instead.

      There have been two key questions I have woven through my thinking since June.

      1. Who, leading up to and around 4:27 would have been “dis-engaged” enough with the fire to have been the one who drove Cory Ball to the Yarnell Fire Department to pick up the ATV? I really thought through Cordes (my first “suspect” all things considered), and decided, nah, he was too busy at the Norton Way area. I had him, in my head, there from probably about 4:10 ish until, as he said, he headed down to RHR to tie in with his crew and do a check (while not knowing about the deployment). And that’s why I figured he also hadn’t heard the MayDay convo mostly everybody else heard in some form or another. I just figured he was too focused on what he was doing to have been paying all that much attention to the chaos on the radio (except for, probably his tac channel with his crew).

      2. And then after The Plan™ emerged, I started focusing on who would have been, again, not so engaged with the fire specifically, and, thus freer (or whatever) to have been listening to and maybe even participating in those critical convos that happened at 4:16 (including the ones leading up to “waz yo status”) and 4:27.

      So I’ve been filtering a LOT of stuff through those two lenses. Because, I agree that THAT realm is CRITICALLY important.

      Even to the point of trying to determine if Ed K. might have come from the south. Which I don’t think is the case. Because he was someone who was, for the most part, wandering around most of the day watching and listening, [probably partly because there were fire-fighters from Wickenburg on the fire). So that’s the kind of people/stuff I’ve been focusing on.

      And also Clawson and Hulburg, who cross the Air2Air cam at 4:16, either of whom might actually be “on a radio.”

      And also Tony Sciacca, who was at that time trying to orient himself and gather info, and I had been thinking it was almost a no-brainer that it might have been him in the convo with Bravo 33 that led up to “waz yo status.” It would definitely have been in his scope to have been wondering who was where and under what conditions at that point in time. And the video, once i realized that was probably him standing there, started underscoring that line of thinking in my brain.

      Because I DON’T have time to focus on every little thing. Actually, I don’t have time, currently, to even be focused on much of any of this, but obviously I”m addicted.

      And, now I’m working on shifting a bunch of things around in my head.

      I have a question. Since I don’t have the Reason video on my computer, since I haven’t had time during all of this to schlep my hard drives over to my new/old house, do you think the guy that you think is Gary Cordes in the video is the same guy in all the Story photos hanging out with Cougan?

      Also, a new question has popped into my head, regarding those “later” photos in/around the RHR parking lot. It may just be my jumbled brain.
      And my lack of access to my timelines. (which I am sure are not even remotely as good as yours to begin with).

      Do you know how long Brian Frisby stayed over at the Deployment Site/Boulder Springs Ranch area before he came back to the RHR parking lot (based on something other than the photos we’re looking at)? The Official Notice of the Fatalities went out at 6:35 pm.

      And yes, I agree with you that the “photo under consideration” can sync with the Swartz photo. And I think Bob is incorrect in his assessment just downstream. But I also, in the past, and still currently, have thought that “fire” might mean something. Except I thought it might be somebody at the Yarnell Fire Department.

      I think part of the problem is that you (WTKTT) seem to have “resolved” this, way back when, in one configuration, while I “resolved’ it in a different configuration, and I don’t ever remember “us” resolving it at all. And once one of us “resolves” something, we then tend to build on it. And several stories can then get built on top of that resolution (pun intended).

      And, yeah, Joy, I hear yah. My first immediate thought after reading your “lost in the weeds” (paraphrased) comment was, “I just want to run away from this whole thing, screaming!!)

      Why is this fire still burning?????????????????????????????????????????

      Oh, yeah, there was never that official investigation report, that Gov. Brewer ordered, published.

      Reply

      • Oh, and PS. Another little headache/mystery that might “matter” that I’ve hinted at but never said clearly.

        I don’t think Paul Musser was driving the Incident Management Team truck. It doesn’t fit his timeline at all. But the State Fire truck in the middle of the collection, facing towards Marty Cole’s truck, does.

        And, therefore, one of my ongoing “unresolved issues” has all along been, “Who from the Incident Management Team, besides Musser, might have been there at the RHR parking lot???”

        I thought about Byron Kimball. But he may have gotten there a bit later than 5:06 PM, which is when the first of Story’s RHR photos was taken. And he said he had to keep moving his truck.

        I don’t know if the IMT truck is in the Reason video

        And that IMT truck passed the Air2Air camera only once, heading east, at 4:28 PM. Which doesn’t fit at all in Kimball’s timeline, as far as I know.

        So SOMEBODY drove that IMT truck from the Incident Command Post heading east, crossing the Air2Air video camera at 4:28 PM (one minute after the 4;27 Gamble video), and was one of the first people/vehicles on the scene at the RHR parking lot as Tom Story started photographing it. And I have no clue who was driving it.

        Reply

        • And I have never found a photo of Byron Kimball, although I have looked for one plenty of times. So I have no idea what he looks like.

          Reply

        • And also this:

          “CYFD captain retires; new captains sworn in”

          2/26/2013 9:50:00 PM

          “Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward retired after 25 1/2 years of service and received his retirement axe from CYFD Assistant Chief Scott Bliss at the Central Yavapai Fire District board meeting on Jan. 22.”

          “Courtesy CYFD
          Above, Central Yavapai Fire Captain Dean Steward shows his retirement ax Jan. 22.”

          http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=116470

          Reply

    • WTKTT-

      I have been guessing, all along, that the guy in the shirt that says “Central Yavapai Fire” across the back is Captain Reyes. What do you think?

      Reply

      • Maybe. IIRC that also remains unresolved? Other candidate was that FF in Russ Reason video also seen at the back of Marty Cole’s white pickup near Brendan McDonough? Not the tall FF who was shielding Brendan from the video camera… but the other one on the side of the pickup who made that gesture to Frisby alerting him that the video camera was getting closer?

        I’m on airplanes solid again and no time to reply to everything else below… but regarding your question below about when Frisby and Brown got back to RHR after finding bodies at deployment site… I don’t believe they ever did return to RHR. I believe the BR GPS tracking DAT shows that when they drove back out the way they went in… they tookba LEFT off Shrine road onto Hwy 89 and went straight north in the BR UTV up to the Model Creek School ICP.

        Reply

  25. OK here I go on the discussion of who with the Cajun accent was or was not.
    The first place to look is for a Fire camp Dispatcher.
    Why? I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.
    WTKTT–Said there was a word in the beginning that sounded like Fire- Granit Mountain Wuz yo status. Natural call out —- FIRE TO– GRANIT MOUNTAIN——–
    Short for Fire Camp To—-Some times Granit mountain —Fire Camp’

    I think we discussed earlier that this transmission was picked up with severial different frequencies in one location and that the camera was in front of who ever was talking. It was at the school Fire camp area.
    It could have also been a check in station at the entrance to the Camp with one or more equipment officers monitoring severial Radios or Frequencies.
    So what I am suggesting this was a request by the IC at Fire Camp Dispatch to get a check on Granit Mountain. As Marti says that’s my 2 cents.

    Reply

    • Bob–I think you are way off regarding the photo.

      i agree with WTKTT that it is another version of the group shown in the Swartz photo that was taken at 6:43 PM, at the front of the RHR parking lot, probably by the guy in the red helmet in that photo. It just all lines up.

      By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

      Reply

      • By the way, I just found that in the “official timeline,” the “official” time when the fire jumped 89 was 6:39 pm. For whatever that’s worth.

        REPLY:
        who narrated it jumped? The videos we saw was no jump but drip torches—curious to know who said it really jumped and what gps coordinates did it land? We saw different…

        Reply

          • Hay Marti the comment on my observation above I was not talking about the Photo but attempting to Identify the Speaker with the Cajon accent.
            Unless I am Missing what you are saying..

            The person with the Dark complexion in the Middle with their back to the Camera I believe is a Native American. He has the build from a few I have known.

            Reply

            • Then I have absolutely no idea what you mean by this:

              “I think at the time of the News camera capturing this person calling Granit Mountain was in front of Fire camp. Not at the Resteraunt.”

              First of all there is no News camera photo capturing a person calling Granite Mountain and second of all the News camera photo under discussion was taken in front of the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

              What am I missing?

              Reply

              • Maybe my old brain—-
                But where ever the radio traffic was captured with the voice and recording it sounds like it came from a Radio Operator in Fire Camp based on the Message. I may have got confused on where it was recorded. Sorry

                Reply

  26. WWTKTT:

    Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 8:03 PM

    Anna Marie Lechner:
    Looked on my computer and could not find any times on the pictures but I believe that was the approximate time.

    Reply

    • Thank you Joy… but what ‘approximate time’ is Anna Marie now referring to?

      My best guess is around 4:45 PM, based on the fire that is seen in the background of her photo and its position when cross-plotted onto Google Earth.

      Is Anna Marie now AGREEING with that estimate of 4:45 PM?

      Reply

      • Followup…

        Anna Marie Lechner seems to be saying she definitely still has those original photos on her computer and she was able to locate the files.

        Is there any chance she could ’email’ the originals to you… and you could forward them to me?

        There is still a chance there is important EXIF timestamp metadata embedded in the photos.

        Sometimes its even just in the original FILENAME(S) themselves… but you have to look carefully to realize that’s what some of those ‘numbers’ are in the filename(s). Depends on the camera/smartphone that was used.

        Reply

  27. **
    ** ANOTHER PHOTO OF COUGAN CAROTHERS

    Replying to my own message from down below… just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ and it ends up with the following TWO links in the same place…

    This all relates more to Gary Olson’s original question somewhere down below about whether the FFs in that ‘WORLDNEWS’ photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant AFTER the fire had mostly burned through Yarnell were ever fully identified.

    It is still highly likely that is Cougan Carothers in the BLACK Helmet on the left side of that photo, and that that is his no-camper-top CYFD pickup seen in the background of the same photo ( and also on the left of the Swartz photo that was also mentioned. )…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:01 am WTKTT said…
    >>
    >> Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in
    >> the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in
    >> question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.
    >>
    >> There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central
    >> Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…
    >>
    >> http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232
    >>
    >> If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’
    >> and just imagine >> him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’
    >> on… there’s not much reason to doubt >> that’s him.
    >>
    >> So that just confirms what I said above.
    >>
    >> That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just
    >> makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop
    >> also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…
    >>
    >> …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

    Found ANOTHER good ‘full-face-to-the-front’ photo of Cougan Carothers… but this time there’s no need to ‘imagine’ what he looks like with a helmet on.

    Cougan Caruthers does a lot of white-water rescues… and this July, 2010 ‘Prescott Valley Tribune’ article has a full-front photo of him doing just that…

    http://www.pvtrib.com/print.asp?ArticleID=51380&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1

    The photo is over on the RIGHT side of the article… and Cougan Carothers is wearing the BLACK helmet and looking right at the camera.

    I’m still seeing a ‘facial match’ for that FF on the left side of the photo Gary Olson was asking about.

    Reply

    • WWTKTT said:
      “”” just so it doesn’t get ‘lost in the weeds’ “””

      I am not helping with this …am I…I feel lost in the weeds trying to find the ONE…email…

      Reply

    • Cougan Carothers-
      were you at the wildfire thing at Bucky’s this year—you look too and I mean too familiar—
      dop·pel·gäng·er is what Sonny calls a person who looks like another—

      Reply

      • I think I will figure it out—but this man—I think he has a young girl that looked like me at that age—I will focus to this guy now because I am tired and not sure if he was part of memorial stuff and the anniversaries or saw him on Shrine road or Bucky’s wildland fire academy thing or I am getting a stronger sense I met him mountain biking…is he named after his dad’s name of some kind…I am going to email him and direct him to this site because I was so focused to other areas but its the name that first hit me…and never did before…ever…what is his tie to Gary Cordes…is Cougan the actual guy and not Gary who the homeowners described that day and so there is a reason we got directed to this area—so let’s figure out why…I will email him now and ask him to please peak here to answer some truck questions…
        now, good night.

        Reply

  28. So a little bit downstream I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:26 PM

    Oh, and if you want a REAL challenge, riddle me THIS photograph, taken by David Kadlubowski:

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/qqrhfdabjzjsk5n/RHR.tiff?dl=0

    Or does this not matter?”

    And then I wrote:

    “Marti Reed says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 8:28 PM

    I honestly don’t know what matters and what doesn’t matter at this point, any more.”

    ———————————————

    While thinking still about that photo that Joy took of those two fire-fighters up on the peak of that ridge, and that she brought to us with great passion, thinking it was of Eric with someone, and I thought “Nah, that’s probably someone related to Moki Helitack (for various reasons)…….but WHO KNOWS?????)

    So all of a sudden we seem to be fixated on which truck Gary Cordes was driving versus which truck Cougan Carothers was driving, a bit of an argument we are having………..

    ……that WTKTT says is IMPORTANT…………

    ……..triggered by Gary Olsen asking who was in a photograph that included a truck and some fire-fighters (one of whom I still think is Black, but it may be the case that Bob Powers is right that that might not be the case), and WTKTT is now saying someone in that photo is Rance Marquez and then I am saying how and why I totally disagree with that and……..on and on we go, and……I’m finally finding myself asking, via various comments…………..

    How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

    ——————————————-

    And then “dale1 says OCTOBER 12, 2015 AT 5:24 PM

    in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??”

    Is that worth spending time figuring out???????

    I guess what I am trying to say is that, after almost two years of working on this, because I thought that that little “detail” that I thought was important when nobody else did — that camera sitting in the middle of that deployment site that seemed to be completely invisible to everybody else on the planet — I’m really at a loss as to what, at this point in time, is truly important and what isn’t.

    And how do we determine that?

    Does WTKTT (who thinks the current conversation over which truck is Gary’s and which truck is Cougan’s is really important) determine that?

    Or do I, with my issues about that red-helmeted guy in the RHR parking lot and that IMT truck whose timeline gives me headaches?

    I mean, I really don’t know, at this time, which way to turn. And I have a WHOLE BUNCH of other stuff I should be devoting my time to.

    What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?

    Reply

    • “””How do we determine what matters and is important and what isn’t????

      What do people here think is important and what do they think isn’t?”””

      my reply is IT IS ALL IMPORTANT
      because one can read my emails and think what the hell is this now?
      It is trying to find the ONE but seeming to find the others…and thought what if I go all out and share it like it came to me…what if Janelle’s article noone ever knew about because she was asking me for permission has a piece of importance so to me it is all and I mean ALL relevant and important. We will all look at things different or we look at YHF at different phases…what is important to one at this moment ain’t to another…and what if me sharing Willis email gets you to understand him and where he is at…this is really a unity…togetherness thing not HIDE your sources kind of journey…anytime Sonny and I are off the trails you all become more of a direct focus…because I lead a very simple life of helping locals and my hikes and my desert critters-

      Reply

        • December 14 2013 7:53pm

          which Putnam got cc and Johnny Kirkley

          Moses said both Ted Putnam and John Dougherty seem to be really digging into the guts of this thing and Putnam is the best I know.

          I hope more finally join the discussion and gather more info…

          when I wake up I may pause on looking for that ONE email and focus to this Cougan Carothers—you are looking way too familiar—

          good night

          Reply

    • Marti… yes… that photo that Gary Olson ended up a ‘tree’ with a lot of ‘branches’.

      That’s just how it goes here, sometimes.

      What Gary was REALLY wondering is if any of those FFs in that ‘photo in question’ could have been the one making that “Granite Mountain, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?” radio callout at 4:13 PM.

      The answer to THAT basic question is still a resounding ‘maybe’.

      Until we know WHO all these people were having direct communications with Eric Marsh in the time when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said they could not ‘verify’ that was happening… then these ‘callers’ could have been ANYONE with access to a radio that day.

      In the course of trying to figure out who those FFs were ( that Gary Olson asked about )… the CYFD pickup in the background came into the conversation.

      You were sure it was Gary Cordes’. I realized that I was not.

      I posted the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo from July that was just another photo of that CYFD truck WITH the camper. You said there was no way that was Gary Cordes’ truck… that it had to be Cougan Carothers.

      I DISAGREED… and all I wanted to do then was simply try to figure out if we could put this ONE SINGLE THING ‘to rest’ and whether I really should have to change all the existing annotations on that ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ video I just posted.

      I’m willing to do that… but only if I SHOULD.

      I still think there is COMPELLING evidence to prove that the CYFD truck WITH the camper top was, in fact, the one that belonged to Gary Cordes.

      But what I was hoping would NOT happen would that the attempt to focus on just answering that one lingering question about a specific thing ( who was driving the puppy with the camper top ) would turn into a ‘shotgun blast’ of “yeah… but what about this… and what about this… and what about this?”

      Well… that’s what happened.

      I think ALL of the “well… what about this, too?” questions during the recent discussion are equally important as the one were just trying to ‘nail down’. I really do.

      I was just hoping we could ‘nail it down’… and then move on to the NEXT one… and not try to solve every single question that started flying around… all at the same time… in this (very) limited WordPress medium.

      Yes… more often than not… every single mystery with this absolute fuster cluck that is/was the Yarnell Hill Fire just seems to bump right up against piles of other ‘unsolved mysteries’ and ‘lingering questions’. due to the absolute piss-poor ‘official’ investigating that was done…

      …but I still think we can solve a lot of these ‘lingering’ mysteries by just FOCUSING… and taking them ONE AT A TIME ( like I was hoping we could do on this campertop-campertop-who-had-the-campertop? thing ).

      Example: I d NOT know WHO all four of those FFs are standing there in that Blue Ridge photo showing the Rance Marquez meeting. I really don’t… and I DO think it’s important to ‘figure that out’… but whether or not that really is the other CYFD truck WITH the camper top there alongside the one that does NOT have a camper top… or whether or not that really IS Gary Cordes standing there on the left side ( I don’t think it is )… is IRRELEVANT to solving the specific question that was on the table if you accept the fact that we might have just PROVED that there was no way Cougan Carothers could have been out in the Sesame area prior to the time Joy took TWO different photos showing the CYFD truck WITH the camper top out in that area.

      Maybe Cordes really did make it out to that ‘get together’ even after he had just given Marquez and Carothers ‘directions’ how to get out there themselves. Maybe Cordes did just drop what he was doing in town and go BACK out there just to be part of that ‘meeting’ between DIVSZ, his assistant, and Frisby and Brown.

      I don’t know. Sure… it’s possible.

      But that still does NEGATE the evidence we have that it was still MOST LIKELY it was Gary Cordes driving the puppy with the campertop and Cougan Carothers driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      I still think if there is ANY chance that solving some of these mysteries with the vehicles and ‘who was where’ leads to a better understanding of who MIGHT have been the multiple people communicating directly with Eric Marsh when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels said that was NOT happening…

      …then it’s all worth it.

      So let’s just continue to take things ONE AT A TIME.

      It’s all we can do.

      Reply

      • And in case anyone hasn’t noticed in my own recents posts… I am going to stop referring to ‘the SAIT’ as if it was some dis-embodied entity.

        It wasn’t. There were specific decision being made by specific people that ended up producing the most worthless fire investigation document in the history of Wildland Firefighting ( following the greatest tactical blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting ).

        USFS employee Mike Dudley and Florida State employee Jim Karels WERE ‘the SAIT. Make no mistake about it.

        THEY decided what it was going to ‘look like’.
        THEY decided to ignore the directive that was given to them by the ‘transfer of authority’ signed by Arizona’s own GOVERNOR and ignore the fact that they were also being paid to produce a standard ‘factual management report’ along with namby-pamby document they DID publish.
        THEY are the ones that decided was was ( and was NOT ) ‘verified’.
        THEY are the ones that decided what was to be reported, and what was to be left totally hidden from view.
        THEY are the ones who decided what they would share with ADOSH.

        Everyone else just ‘worked’ for these two guys.

        I still think some of the fine men and women who did their best to do THEIR jobs working on that report were SHOCKED to see the final one-document-only published result(s)… and maybe one day ( soon? ) we will start hearing from THEM as well.

        Reply

    • Well, since I’m still not certain what’s important or not (partially because I’m still not certain whether or not identifying the fire-fighters in that “photo under consideration” will lead us to determining who is talking in those radio communications under discussion)……

      I spent a chunk of time yesterday reading all the incident reports from 2015 on the Lessons Learned site, to see whether or not the issues regarding the Wildland Urban Interface would show up in them.

      None of them has anything to do with the WUI stuff. It’s all just the same old same old.

      So, for what it’s worth, there’s that.

      Reply

  29. Going back to the beginnings…I will stay on ten more minutes and look under another email addy and see what I can find from July 2013…We emailed him Wednesday, July 17, 2013 4:25 PM and he replied Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:19 AM

    Sonny & Joy, Thank you for your note and your interest. I have forwarded your information to Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne and he will contact you directly. We are very interested in seeing anything that you have to share and appreciate you getting in touch with us. Very best, Jim

    Jim Paxon, Information Branch Chief
    Arizona Game and Fish Department
    5000 West Carefree Highway IEIN
    Phoenix AZ 85086
    Phone 623.236.7226 / Cell 602.920.8053
    [email protected] / Fax 623.236.7903
    http://www.azgfd.gov

    Reply

    • You all can begin to see WHO had the interest and WHERE in July 2013—
      I am going back to try and find the one email but if I see others—you will see it how it unfolded for the hikers—

      On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 8:23 PM, Bill at Wildfire Today
      Sonny-

      I saw the article about you guys that appeared in the Daily Courier, and posted an excerpt from it at my web site where I write about wildland fire. I have covered the Yarnell Hill Fire extensively. My article that mentioned you is here:
      h t t p : / / wildfiretoday.c o m/2013/07/21/hikers-photos-of-granite-mountain-19-before-the-tragedy/

      I was very impressed with what you guys did, and it’s great that you’re going to provide some information for the investigation team so they can figure out how to prevent other firefighters from experiencing a similar fate.

      Would it be possible for me to use some of your photos on WildfireToday.com ?

      Reply

      • Thu, Jul 25, 2013 at 9:47 AM
        Hi Joy and Tex,
        I am so glad you survived the fire. It sounds like it was quite the experience. You were the fortunate ones. It is so tragic that the 19 hotshots died. You, probably better than anyone know what they must have gone through.
        Best wishes,
        Peter Morrison
        Executive Director
        Pacific Biodiversity Institute
        PO Box 298
        Winthrop, WA 98862
        [email protected]
        http://www.pacificbio.org
        office phone: 509-996-2490

        Reply

        • Tue, Aug 20, 2013 at 3:12 PM
          Hi Joy and Tex.
          Would tomorrow morning (Wednesday) or Friday morning work for you to hike…? My boss really likes the idea of us going there with you.
          And you can absolutely post the picture of me with both of you!
          Thanks,
          Morgan

          —his video got archived but it was the best story from where we stood because this man took our way too to get a feel of everyone’s position that day even the hikers—yet John D. in his flip flops sandals so relaxed was too cool— laid back. Reminded me of my brother Paul—

          Reply

          • Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 12:48 PM

            not posting it because it was a private email from Karen Fann to Sonny—
            I am not on it anywhere—but in our YHF hiking files.

            note:
            Karen Fann has been involved with Sonny’s journey coring to evacuation where Don Alexander who died and Sonny got gifts from Karen Fann…she always has been very warm and kind to Sonny.

            Reply

              • Wed, Oct 30, 2013 at 1:13 PM
                Hi Joy,
                I’m one of the editors at FireRescue magazine. One of the investigators for the Yarnell Hill Fire wrote an article for our December issue about the release of the investigation report about the fire, detailing the incident and lessons learned. He put me in touch with Jim Karels, who I contacted about some of the photos in the report. I had specifically asked for the photo of the hotshots hiking, and he let me know that I would need to reach out to you about using the photo. I was wondering if you would be willing to send me the photo that you took of the hotshots that appeared on p. 17 of the report (attached). We would of course credit you for the photo, and we could provide compensation according to our photo rates if you would like (payment depends on how large the photo runs in print).
                Let me know if you need any additional information about how the photo would be used.
                Thank you,

                Janelle Foskett
                Managing Editor
                FireRescue magazine – FirefighterNation.com

                PennWell San Diego
                4180 La Jolla Village Dr. Suite 260
                La Jolla, CA 92037
                858/638-2614

                Reply

                • MY FILES ARE SO UNORGANIZED—it really stinks–I am tired…

                  Fri, Jul 26, 2013 at 8:58 AM

                  Thank you for the information. I know you say lower brush, but I also saw unburned branches that were above my 6′ height that are still remaining, so I estimated 10′ brush and I realize due to my experience that it was in places over 10′ knowing the age of the vegetation is over 40 years old. I hope you can get some peace in the fact that I know they did not go down there to deploy or seek refuge, they went down to protect the ranch. The fire behavior due to outflows from the thunderstorm caused the blow up, wind estimates of gust fro 80-90 mph. I don’t believe the aircraft fanned the flames. This is my opinion based on facts and a 37 years of fire experience. I am sorry for the emotional stress you are going through and wish I could provide you more comfort. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell
                  Mon, Nov 18, 2013 at 7:39 AM

                  Joy,
                  Thank you for writing back to me and your kind words. Wayne and Holly are special people who are set on finding out the truth. I trust them as well as John Maclean and provided them anything they wanted or needed from me. Thank you for spending time with them and giving them the details you have. I am committed to the truth on this tragedy as I know you are. Again, thank you for the e-mail and your encouraging words. I truly hope God blesses you. DW

                  Darrell Willis, Division Chief
                  Prescott Fire Department
                  333 White Spar Road
                  Prescott, AZ 86303
                  (928)777-1701 Office
                  (928)776-1890 Fax
                  (928)925-7311 Cell

                  Reply

                  • Some off the topic of YHF but in reading and skimming emails and personal ones back and forth—got to say Fall 2013 Holly Neill really had alot of heart and warmth…I may not like that she has hidden sources and speaks public because I want to be educated and I think the world as well…yet I know she has some very solid sources and I can see to this day she is the strength to many—fine lady.

                    Reply

                    • another person where we did not always share the same vision but she too has had alot of heart and is a real neat lady…even though in January asked me the questions she did in regards to a matter that unfolded…it seem like she began to be partial in the matter…I mean why ask me those personal questions about Sonny…was he finally being thought of to pull him in as well???
                      build a better dramatic platform?
                      the lady:
                      Joanna Dodder Nellans
                      reporter/videographer
                      Daily Courier newspaper
                      1958 Commerce Center Circle
                      Prescott, Arizona 86301
                      928-445-3333 ext. 2035
                      [email protected]

                    • Sat, Dec 21, 2013 at 10:45 AM

                      this was when I got the fair warning from Charley Moseley on Holly—and how Charley said Tex reminds Charley of him and he told me that many men will click to Sonny throughout this process because we will he said—so I he said being Joy will always be on the back burner unless its negative than I will be brought to the forefront. He also said:
                      “I have been around a lot of arsonists in my time, and government employees who seemingly wanted their fire to ‘Go Over The Hill’. It is a well known problem and occurrence in the fire fighting business. Last year we had an Oklahoma Firefighter caught red handed when, unknown to him, a locater chip was in his vehicle and showed that the vehicle was at the exact location of 11 new arson fires–when they started. HE IS SERVING TIME IN THE STATE PEN!

                      Please keep up the good work. I think we need to create a medal of freedom, or something to honor the two of you for the outstanding job you have been doing. Without your bona fide info–and pictures–I think the bad guys would have hidden a lot more.

                      Best regards,

                      Mose”

                    • Fri, Dec 20, 2013 at 4:41 PM

                      Thanks you two, and it is so good to hear from you again, and to also see your very astute observations of what is happening. Way more than anyone else, we Firefighters do owe both of you a big debt, both for being up there that day, and your willingness to give voice and photos to what you observed–without trying to hide anything!

                      Yes, I am like you in that with the publication of that OSHA Report, the doors have been really opened up to lots of daylight. And even further, the forced publication of that recording of the last minutes for our Granite Mountain Hotshots, does show that the State of Arizona was really trying to hide information and evidence that might disprove their BS stories. The people in charge of Arizona government are really in for a kicking, I am figuring.

                      Take care, and the very best to both of you, and yours,

                      Mose

                      PS>Please stay tuned for a little warfare in the coming days. We have developed a strong difference of opinion between me and some folk. I think you might enjoy where this is going and learning just who was trying to poke fun at your opinions and observations as to the helicopters rotor wash.

                    • Fri, May 23, 2014 at 9:06 AM

                      I received a copy via email of the SJM July2014 with Holly Neill and let me explain she has very much invested alot of time and love and energy and finances throughout this process and for that I think she should be given respect and my only concern since December 2013 was what Moses shared to us and the behind the scenes talks about the hikers no one was letting us in on…yet she was top notch even the Memorial Anniversary weekend 2014 squeezing me in to hike her friends and Eric Marsh’s best friend and Kodas and Roth family when I saw a part to her I only heard about happening to another but then it happen to me…so to me she became “show me the sources to get to those conclusions” and nothing else meant a thing to me…how the hell could I think such I know after all the kindness…right…well, it was how it unraveled for me…

                    • Funny read this…and funny to listen to what he said about me publicly January 2015…and in a few months I have plenty that God guided in 2015 to share in mid January 2016 to you all—

                      Fri, Nov 21, 2014 at 8:41 AM

                      Thank you for your comments and the pictures. I appreciate the fact that you and Joy continue to seek answers to the reasons our firefighters lost their lives on June 30, 2013 and all you have done to provide information to get to the bottom of the this. I am committed to the truth no matter what the outcome is, that is what the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew would want as well as Eric Marsh. So others would avoid another tragedy like this. Thank you for including me with your information. DW

                    • Ered Matthew is really a terrific human being.

                      He snail mailed me and asked to speak with us-

                      Sonny and I were in one of our off times but Ered’s visit had me back at the camp with Ered and Sonny—
                      God bless that freaking mess—
                      I was embarrassed but Ered seem to be so down to earth genuine and the two hit it off…

                      thank you Ered for all you did for these families.

                    • also Katie Cornelius— special thank you for all her efforts with the fence in Prescott-

                    • Sat, Dec 27, 2014 at 12:50 PM

                      THIS IS THE DATE where I will in 2016 explain where all the stuff cored to….

                • hey—red flags—I am not seeing alot of emails on the other addy—I will rearrange my schedule this week to stop and see if that other person has it on my hard drive there—
                  hope so because Joanna Dodder was the first to reach out to us and I am not seeing hers or Josh Eells stuff….and Brian Mockenhaupt—I did locate the off the wall one Sonny sent to Alex Jones on July 11 2013 but he can post it…I am only posting ones between hikers…even saw the one he did to air specialists and fbi…
                  Dec 16 2013 7:36am Pyne who is not writing a book and John MacLean tied him into us…hike with fire historian Stephen Pyne was simple but probably him and Kevin Kennedy and Forghani were the ones in the safe zone…and kept it pure and simple in what they did…Pyne was involved with MacLean yet he mentioned Santos too so they must of inquired to him being a fire historian…great man…yet ain’t it WEIRD that a FIRE HISTORIAN could not get the lay of the land from Willis and went to the hikers thru MacLean???? Pyne was neat to speak with…15 seasons on a fire crew at the North Rim and 3 writing fire plans for the National Park Service…than traded his pulaski in for a pencil…neat man and he is in John Dougherty weather channel piece too.

                  Reply

  30. it seems pretty sad a blog has to dissect who was who and what vehicle was being driven by who—this is the kind of shit the world should of seen in SAIR…
    should of listed vehicles with driver.
    It should of listed Paul Morin’s account…
    etc etc etc…

    Reply

  31. in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …// the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2 other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
    who’s truck is that 2nd one….//??

    Reply

    • After looking at and comparing just about every photo of every vehicle on this fire, I have no clue what truck that is. I haven’t seen it anywhere else.

      I also have no clue what the truck in Joy’s photo (22) is.

      There was a lot more going on up there that morning than just Gary Cordes (and/or Cougan Carothers — a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief who was originally dispatched as a Strike Team Leader before he was ever assigned to Rance Marquez) and the dozer.

      Reply

      • PS. Just for reference regarding the timing of these photos.

        I finally decided that the timestamps on these morning photos are about 4 hours early, having synched them with Joy’s photo (27) which shows a Blue Ridge IHC buggy approaching their eventual parking area, which we know (via Cory Ball’s photos) happened around 10:40ish AM.

        Somebody else’s mileage may vary.

        Somewhere around noonish (I’m writing this from my memory banks) Joy’s camera’s timestamps went haywire again in some different way. But pretty much the pre-noon photos seem pretty synched timewise, it’s just that they are timestamped about 4 hours early.

        Reply

    • I find it funny you all can view my pics but I can’t—I gave all the YHF stuff to someone for safe keeping for 2015.

      Reply

      • Yikes. I didn’t know that.

        I have only downloaded the ones I wanted to work with.

        I could easily download the rest of them (the images on JD’s dropbox) and burn them to a CD.

        Reply

    • Reply to dale1 post on October 12, 2015 at 5:24 pm

      >> dale1 said…
      >>
      >> in the joy photo 1(40).jpg there’s a 2nd truck so whose truck is that ???? …
      >> // the GM sup and chase trucks are there and the dozer but there’s 2
      >> other truks there not just the red one with the camper top.
      >> who’s truck is that 2nd one….//?

      It’s never been identified.

      At NO TIME during the ADOSH interviews ( even though they already had all these photos ) did anyone EVER even SHOW any of these photographs to anyone and ASK them who owned some of these vehicles and what the fuck were THEY doing ‘out there’?

      Absolutely astounding.

      And Marti is right… the truck seen in Joy’s photo “1 (22).JPG” has never been identified, either.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        >> WTKTT said…
        >>
        >> Absolutely astounding.

        Actually… when it comes to the ADOSH investigation… it’s not ‘astounding’ that they didn’t do “The Full Monty” and fully investigate this incident… for TWO reasons….

        1) That really wasn’t their job. Jim Karels and Mike Dudley ( and their SAIT employees ) were supposed to have more ‘interest’ in doing the most in-depth investigation possible… and getting the most possible ‘Lessons Learned’ out of it so that these ‘Lessons’ could save lives in the future. Not ADOSH.

        2) There were LIMITS on ADOSH. There are MAXIMUM FINES that they are/were allowed to impose on any single employer… and when it comes to that fuster cluck of a workplace called “The Yarnell Hill Fire”… ADOSH started ‘pegging the meter’ on the ‘maximum fines’ even before they finished doing their first round of interviews.

        So there were a lot of other ‘interviews’ that ADOSH could have done… and a lot of ‘questions’ that ADOSH could have asked… and a lot of ‘mysteries’ that ADOSH could have solved… but once they realized how screwed-up that workplace was and it was ‘pegging the meter’ on the fines they were even allowed ( by law ) to impose… they basically just issued those citations and called it a day.

        That’s all they could do.

        It will still probably take some kind of court case ( but it will only take ONE single court case ) to ever get a lot of the people who were never even interviewed ‘into a room’ to even just get depositions… OR have them look at the existing evidence ( photos, etc. ) to see if THEY can ‘fill in the blanks’… if for no other reason than to at least make sure the historical record for this HISTORIC incident is accurate.

        Reply

  32. **
    ** ARIZONA PARKS ( AND THE YARNELL MEMORIAL BOARD ) HAVE POSTED A PUBLIC
    ** NOTICE SAYING THAT THE PROPOSED PARK IS ‘CLOSED TO THE PUBLIC’.

    The official Arizona State Parks hosted-website that was created for this “Yarnell Memorial Site Board” has always been HERE…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    Someone has just now ADDED a ‘blurb’ to the very TOP of that online ( PUBLIC ) page which states the following…

    —————————————————————————–
    The Park is currently closed to the public while under development.
    There are no public roads or trail access available.
    —————————————————————————–

    So it looks like news travels fast.

    It’s been confirmed now that the Arizona State Land Department themselves has nothing to do with that land anymore… and that any/all ‘Closure Orders’ they might have had relative to that parcel of land became ‘null and void’ the moment the land was SOLD to someone.

    That ‘someone’ is, of course, the Arizona State Parks Department.

    It also seems to be obvious that someone in the State Land Department became painfully aware recently ( but reading this Forum, perhaps? ) that there is no similar ‘Closure Document’ in effect for the land to replace the one(s) the Land Department had in place.

    So they have just done what I thought they would do.

    Instead of just leaving it as an ‘assumption’ that this new ‘State Park’ is CLOSED to the public until there is some kind of ‘dedication’ ceremony and it is declared officially OPEN… they have chosen to make sure they have posted something PUBLICLY which confirms this ‘default state’.

    In other words… no assumptions necessary… it’s CLOSED because we SAY it’s closed… and it will only be OPEN when we also SAY it’s OPEN.

    And ( as the ‘owners’ of the land )… I don’t think they need any kind of ‘document’ to back that up like the State Land Department was required to have.

    That still doesn’t address the issue, however, of the BOUNDARIES of the land being CLEARLY MARKED. Unless they are ( clearly marked out there )… it would be VERY difficult to ever try and prosecute anyone for ‘accidentally’ trespassing onto some portion of the ‘State Park’.

    ** WHERE ARE THE MINUTES FROM THE SEPTEMBER 18, 2015 MEETING?

    Even as of today… there are still no ‘minutes’ posted at the PUBLIC website above for the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” meeting for the previous September 18, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC Board.

    That’s coming up on a MONTH now since that meeting concluded.

    The LAWS regarding any PUBLIC meeting of a duly established ‘Arizona Public Board’ REQUIRE those minutes to be published within 72 hours following a meeting. The LAW also states that a PUBLIC Board is NOT supposed to wait until the ‘draft minutes’ are ‘approved’ at the NEXT meeting before posting those ‘draft minutes’ publicly.

    Indeed… this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ PUBLIC Board seems to know that… because some of the minutes they HAVE posted publicly still have the ‘Draft Minutes’ watermark all over them.

    The September 18, 2015 meeting was supposed to be the one where Board Member Amanda Marsh was going to ‘present’ the results of her little ‘unsupervised’ polling of the ‘family members’ about what the actual PUBLIC access to this State Park should look like.

    So it’s highly likely that this Board has ALREADY decided what the real ‘access’ is going to look like ( for the general public )… and it’s only US ( the ones who are actually PAYING for this PUBLIC Park itself ) who don’t know yet.

    ** THE DEDICATION CEREMONY – JUNE 30, 2016

    The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2015 dedication ceremony.

    I got to thinking what that is actually going to ‘look like’.

    Given the absolute HISTORIC nature of the tragedy itseld… it’s obviously going to be a BIG DEAL and ‘anybody who is anybody’ will most likely want/need to be there.

    Politicians, Fire people, Family members, News media galore… etc. etc….

    But what about the PUBLIC?

    Is the PUBLIC even going to be invited to this historic ‘dedication’ of a PUBLIC Park?

    Remains to be seen.

    I also wonder what that ‘day’ itself is going to look like… ACCESS wise.

    Are they REALLY going to require anyone and everyone who wants to attend this HISTORIC ‘dedications’ of this new Arizona State PUBLIC Park to do the TWO MILE HIKE?

    I seriously doubt it.

    So what’s the ‘other plan’ for that day itself, then?

    If Lee and DJ Helm don’t ‘go along’ with (maybe) some kind of ‘plan’ to just use their property as one big ‘parking lot’ for all the satellites trucks and politicians cars… are they just going to declare ’eminent domain’ ( for that one day? ) and just TAKE OVER the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ and use it as the ‘staging area’ for this HISTORIC event?

    Or will there be Helicopter Shuttle flights out to the site… from somewhere?

    I believe that for SOME of the actual ‘Family Members’ who DESERVE to be in attendance that day… there is NO WAY they will be capable of making any kind of 2 mile HIKE to get there.

    So there has to be some kind of ‘alternate (easy) access plan’ implemented for that day of the ‘dedication ceremony’ itself… and the clock is ticking.

    If they really are shooting for a June 30, 2016 ‘Dedication Ceremony’… then it’s already past time for them to start planning for THAT… and those plans need to also start appearing in the PUBLIC minutes from the PUBLIC meetings of this PUBLIC Board.

    Reply

    • Typo above… I typed 2015 where I should have typed 2016.

      The line above should have read like this…

      “The July meeting minutes ( which WERE eventually published as the the LAW requires ) stated that the ‘Board’ is actually shooting for a June 30, 2016 dedication ceremony.”

      Reply

  33. **
    ** WHO WAS REALLY DRIVING THE CYFD PICKUP WITH THE CAMPER TOP?
    ** GARY CORDES… OR COUGAN CAROTHERS?
    **
    ** DISCUSSION CONTINUED…

    >> On October 11, 2015 at 12:54 pm, Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something
    >> of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I
    >> never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do)
    >> working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on
    >> for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to
    >> where everybody else was at.

    I understand… but I think if we just forget about all the ‘who’s who’ in the photographs from later in the day for a moment and just focus on this ONE issue of WHO was really driving that CYFD Red-with-white-stripes pickup WITH the camper top ( Cordes or Carothers? )

    I believe we CAN either nail it down… OR relegate it to the “until there is more evidence we just can’t be sure” category.

    And I think it’s important to do that.. once and for all.

    So the question is… IS there some piece of evidence which would establish, for sure and certain… WHO was driving the CYFD command vehicle with the camper top that day?

    I still believe there IS… and ( once again ) it would be because Joy Collura was in the right place, at the right time, and doing the right thing that Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    She was ‘documenting’ what was happening that day… AS it was happening.

    The images that Joy Collura freely and transparently shared with the SAIT investigators ended up in their own special folder in the SAIT documentation… and that folder is still HERE…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAQHmeW4AtE4acHagKGrrcSa/Photos%20and%20Video/Hiker%20Photos%20Videos/Reduced%20Photo%20Images?dl=0

    In that folder there are TWO images that CLEARLY show this CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in what ( I believe ) is DEFINITELY a ‘morning’ ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe.

    The were both in the same ‘grouping’ of photos that includes the ones showing the Blue Ridge vehicles first ‘arriving’ in the Sesame area… and we know now for sure and certain that was in the 10:30 AM range… almost 2 hours before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers would ever set foot out in that Sesame area that day.

    So any kind of ‘before NOON’ timeframe for these photos can ONLY mean that it was Gary Cordes who was driving that CYFD command vehicle WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Probably the most definite of the two would be the image in that folde named…

    “1 (40).JPG” ( 8th row down, 3rd from the left ).

    This photo of Joy Collura’s seems to be showing that moment when Gary Cordes says he instructed the dozer operator to ‘put a ring’ around the Granite Mountain Superintendent and Chase trucks, which were parked at the top end of the Sesame area where that east-west two track that the Granite Mountain Hotshots used to hike up to the ridge that day begins heading WEST there at the top of the Sesame area.

    Gary Cordes was ‘out there’ at that time in the morning… and this was definitely a MORNING event… long before Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers ever showed up in the Sesame area.

    On the left side of the photo is the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD command vehicle that DOES have the ‘camper top’ installed.

    So IF that photo really was taken in the MORNING timeframe… then it would appear to be proof ( positive ) that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top.

    The SECOND image that appears to establish that Gary Cordes was driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top would be the image named…

    “1 (25).JPG” ( 5th row down, 4th image from the left ).

    This is that photo of Joy Collura’s that show 3 vehicles out on one of the two-track roads in the Sesame area… and it was ALSO taken in what appears to be the same MORNING ( as in… before NOON ) timeframe… and from the same ‘vantage point’ out on the ridge as the other photos in this ‘grouping’.

    From left to right the vehicles shown are…

    The Dozer, the CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicle WITH the camper top, and then one of the Blue Ridge Hotshot’s Chase trucks.

    An FF with a yellow Nomex shirt and a WHITE helmet is standing in front of the CYFD command vehicle and appears to be gesturing/talking to someone to the left, near the dozer. He LOOKS like he definitely could be Gary Cordes. ( Same height, build, and the WHITE helmet… etc. ).

    Given the (apparent) MORNING timeframe for this photo… it could still assumed this is Gary Cordes seen standing in front of that CYFD command vehicle and the reason the Blue Ridge Chase Truck is there is because this is the moment that Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball had just been driven out there to take over the DOZB/HEQB job from Cordes.

    Again ( as with photo “1 (40).JPG” )… all that has to be proven is that either one ( or BOTH ) of these photos were taken BEFORE NOON… and they would BOTH represent proof that Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top installed that day.

    Actually… this gets very simple.

    Joy… are you reading this?

    You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

    If the answer is YES… then both of these photos prove it was Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top installed.

    No matter where this discussion goes from this point… I’m still going to need a ‘talk down’ and/or an explanation as to how Cougan Carothers could have been ‘out there’ in the Sesame area in the same ( morning ) timeframe as when these photos were ( apparently ) taken.

    Reply

    • I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.

      Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 4:07 am

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> I’m 60% convinced that you might be right.
        >>
        >> Without any testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s
        >> possible to know whether or not what you are saying is accurate.

        Well, we don’t have any DIRECT testimony from Carothers as to his whereabouts that day… but we DO have INDIRECT testimony from Rance Marquez himself that when he and Carothers first headed down towards Yarnell circa NOON that day… that it was the first time that EITHER of them had been ‘down there’ that day.

        In one single section from Rance Marquez’ ADOSH interview, he seems to CONFIRM all of the following…

        1. It wasn’t until NOON or NOON-THIRTY before he ( Marquez ) ‘got it together’ to
        make that first trip out to the Sesame area.

        2. Cougan Carothers was assigned to work with Marquez ‘at the last minute’, and
        just before this ‘scouting trip’ down to Yarnell took place circa NOON to NOON-THIRTY.

        2. He and Cougan Carothers were ‘working together’… but they both had their ‘own vehicles’.

        3. This was the FIRST TIME either he or Carothers had been ‘out there’. They both considered this a ‘scouting mission’ since neither one of them had been out in the Sesame area prior to this time.

        Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH investigator
        Q3 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH / WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = Rance Marquez, DIVSZ
        ———————————————————————————–
        243 A: And by the time I left, um, so by the time I got radio – radio’s cloned and maps
        244 and mobile clone – handheld cloned, all that kind of stuff, um, you know, it was
        245 about 12:00 – 12:30 before I – about 11:30, 12:00 to – to – and 12:30 before I got
        246 a ICP. At the last minute, um, another individual was assigned to go with me uh,
        247 by the name of Cougan Carothers as a Strike Team Leader Trainee.
        248
        249 Q3: Okay. So he – he travelled with you that – that…
        250
        251 A: He did.
        252
        253 Q3: …day?
        254
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        257
        258 Q3: Right.
        259
        260 A: And – and um, we’re also told to go uh, tie in to get some more intel from uh, the
        261 structure group in the Yarnell uh,
        262
        263 Q1: Carothers?
        264
        265 A: No um, I have his name written down here. I can’t remember his name, but uh,
        266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
        267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
        268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
        269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
        270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
        271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
        272
        273 Q3:
        ——————————————————————————–

        Marquez said…
        ————————————————————————————
        255 A: Well he did. In individual – we both had our own vehicles. We’re kind of
        256 looking at this as a scouting mission not being in the area yet.
        ————————————————————————————

        Notice that Marquez uses the PLURAL ‘We’ ( meaning BOTH he and Carothers )
        when he says… “not being in the area ( the Sesame area ) yet ( that day )”…

        Marquez also says that after consulting with Cordes… Cordes got BOTH he
        and Carothers (quote) “dialed in as to where the road access was and that
        kind of stuff back into the area”.

        If Cougan Carothers had been ‘down there’ in Yarnell and ‘out there’ in the Sesame
        area at any time prior to this ( NOONISH )… then it was Cougan Carothers who
        should have been able to get Marquez “dialed in as to where the road access was”.

        He didn’t. Marquez says they needed SPGS Cordes to do that for BOTH of them.

        I believe all that can be considered at least a ‘good’ shred of PROOF that this was
        the ‘first’ official ‘assignment’ for Cougan Carothers on the SOUTH side of the fire
        that day… and that he had NOT been ‘out in the Sesame area’ at any time that
        morning, in any kind of vehicle.

        Reply

        • That could very well be true.

          However, since you trust the veracity of Marquez’ testimony much more than I even remotely do, how do you explain this, which I wrote downstream, after you wrote how much you trusted Marquez narrative of how Marquez and Carothers didn’t meet with Cordes up there at the scene of the Blue Ridge Buggies:

          “Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

          If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.”

          Reply

        • I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream. And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned to work with Rance Marquez.

          That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

          Reply

          • Marti Reed says

            Reply to Marti Reed post on October 12, 2015 at 6:25 pm

            >> Marti Reed said…
            >>
            >> I need to reiterate right here what I wrote just a bit upstream.
            >> And that is that Cougan Carothers, a Yavapai County Fire
            >> District Battalion Chief, was dispatched to this fire as a
            >> Strike Team Leader WELL before he was assigned
            >> to work with Rance Marquez.

            When you are ‘dispatched’… and when you actually ‘arrive’ and ‘check in’ to the fire can be two completely different things, as you know.

            Todd Abel has testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP at the SAME TIME… and that’s why he “put them together”. See below.

            >> Marti Reed also said…
            >>
            >> That little factoid is related to my thinking about all of this.

            You have already said that you simply “don’t trust” any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about what Todd Abel testified to?

            We know that Rance Marquez wasn’t there first thing in the morning… he arrived in the LATE MORNING that day and that’s why he wasn’t really ‘jumping in’ to the fire until around NOONISH after he had checked in at the ICP and was assigned to be DIVZ.

            However…

            Todd Abel testified that BOTH Rance Marquez AND Cougan Carothers CHECKED IN up at the ICP… AT THE SAME TIME… and THAT is why he ‘put them together’.

            So regardless of what times are on Cougan Carothers Resource Order… the OPS1 Supervisor testified that he and Marquez ‘checked in’ AT THE SAME TIME that day ( later in the morning ).

            From Todd Abel’s ADOSH testimony…

            Q1 = Dave Larsen, ADOSH /WFA investigator ( Rest in Peace )
            A = Field OPS1 Todd Abel…
            ——————————————————————-
            641 A: So when, uh – when we were over at the school after the big briefing with all the resources, um, we still had more people checking in. And one of the guys that checked in was a – a Division supervisor, uh, by the name of Rance Marquez.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: Um, I asked Rance – actually two people checked in at the same time, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together and my assignment to them, um, was to go out and talk with Eric Marsh who was Division Alpha.

            Q1: Right.

            A: Come up with a logical Division break and then I need you to start scouting and find out what kind of resources you’re gonna need, uh, to try to keep the fire – you know out of Yarnell or whatever you think is appropriate.

            Q1: Okay.

            A: So, um, I sent them out there.
            ——————————————————————-

            Todd Abel testified…

            “…actually TWO people checked in AT THE SAME TIME, Rance Marquez qualified Division sup and then, uh, Cougan Carothers who was a strike team leader trainee. I put those two together.”

            So Todd Abel “paired them up” because they were both just initially ‘checking in’ to the fire AT THE SAME TIME.

            If Cougan Carothers had already been down in Yarnell and somehow out in the Sesame area BEFORE he got this assignment from OPS1 Todd Abel… then that means he had to have been ‘freelancing’ and doing things in the Sesame area BEFORE he had ever ‘checked in’ on the fire up at the ICP.

            So “I hear you” up above that you fundamentally don’t trust any of Rance Marquez’s testimony… but what about this testimony from OPS1 Todd Abel?

            It establishes the same thing Marquez’s testimony does… that there’s really no way Cougan Carothers could have been out there in the Sesame area and been driving that CYFD truck with the camper top that was photographed by Joy in the 10:00 AM to 11:00 AM timeframe.

            Abel’s testimony “backs up” Marquez’s testimony.

            Reply

              • You asked below “Why does this matter?”

                “What difference does it make whether Gary Cordes was driving the CYFD pickup with the camper top… or not?”

                Well… other than the simple fact that it would be nice to “get this right” once and for all… since those vehicles show up in any number of photos in the evidence record… this thread actually ties back to something you posted.

                It’s a simple ‘nuts and bolts’ question ( for me, anyway ).

                You thanked me for posting the YouTube video of the Anna Marie Lechner photo… but you also said ( with assurance )…

                “That’s not Gary Cordes’ truck. It’s Cougan Carothers’ truck”.

                So the simple ‘nuts and bolts’ issue ( for me ) is whether I need to take the time on this end and change all the annotations that were added to that video documenting the new ‘Anna Marie Lechner’ photo.

                I don’t think I do.

                Hopefully Joy can talk to Anna Marie and get an almost-exact TIME for that photo… and whether it really was either Cordes or Carothers… it will be good to know.

                But I still think the probability that that CYFD truck with the camper top WAS being driven by Gary Cordes that day are high enough that I don’t need to jump all over changing any of the annotations in the video.

                I think we should keep working this one.

                I think it matters.

                I think there IS enough evidence ‘laying on the table’ to put this one to bed once and for all… WITHOUT any testimony from Cougan Carothers.

                Joy Collura has already CONFIRMED ( down below ) that those two photos she took of that CYFD truck WITH the camper installed were definitely taken BEFORE the NOON hour. She puts it in the 10:18 to 11:00 AM timeframe, the same timeframe as applying that ‘4 hour offset’ to the timestamps in the photos themselves.

                Both Rance Marquez’s testimony AND OPS1 Todd Abel’s testimony seem to prove that there really is no way Cougan Carothers could have somehow been out there ‘bombing around’ in ANY vehicle in that same BEFORE-NOON timeframe.

                So it really doesn’t matter whether Cordes was there at the meetup with Marquez and Carothers.

                If there was no way Carothers could have been out there prior to that ‘meeting’… then that CYFD pickup with the camper top MUST have been the one being driven by Gary Cordes that day.

                “When you have eliminated the impossible… whatever is left ( however improbable ) must be the truth”.

                I think we’re close to that on this one, particular piece of the ‘puzzle’.

                Reply

                • PS. Does it matter, that, if you are correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting there on the side of 89, watching the fire, when he says he was evacuating people from that neighborhood just northeast of Shrine Road?

                  Reply

                  • Marti Reed says
                    Reply to Marti Reed post on
                    October 13, 2015 at 6:15 am

                    >> Marti said…
                    >>
                    >> PS. Does it matter, that, if you are
                    >> correct, Gary Cordes was just sitting
                    >> there on the side of 89, watching the fire,
                    >> when he says he was evacuating people
                    >> from that neighborhood just northeast
                    >> of Shrine Road?

                    Yep. Sure does.

                    It means there *might* be just one more thing that is a little ‘wonky’ with SPGS1 Cary Cordes’ testimony to investigators.

                    However… if we accept ( for just a moment, anyway ) that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then both of the following things would appear to be true…

                    At 4:16 PM… he was still sitting way up there at that ‘observation’ point north of Yarnell, at that concrete driveway on the WEST side of Highway 89.

                    At 4:45 PM ( confirmed now by Anna Marie Lechner herself? ) Anna Marie Lechner photographed him just 1 block south of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89, heading SOUTH and ( apparently ) straight for the Ranch House Restaurant ( where that same vehicle would then appear in the Russ Reason video circa 4:50 – 5:00 PM ).

                    So that leaves about 29 minutes ( call it a half-hour ) when we still can’t be sure WHERE he was.

                    If he left that ‘observation point’ up there north of Yarnell right after that video ended… then I suppose he DID have time in that half-hour to pull into the Norton Way area and be shouting out the window of the truck for people to evacuate.

                    If he didn’t leave there right after that video… I would say it becomes doubtful he had the time to do those other things he told investigators he did in the Norton Way area.

                    PS: If we are also accepting ( just for a moment, anyway? ) that Cordes WAS driving the ‘camper top’ puppy… then I believe that is Cordes seen in the Russ Reason video standing near that same vehicle and near the porch of the Ranch Restaurant in his WHITE Helment, holding his radio… and just sort of STARING off to the WEST towards what we now know was the ‘deployment site’ area.

                    If Anna Marie Lechner really did capture him heading south on 89 at 4:45 PM… and that really is him standing near the same vehicle in the Russ Reason video… then that means he had basically just arrived there and this ‘staring out towards the deployment’ site was one of the first things he did when he got there.

                    Cordes says Captain Reyes is the one who told him Granite Mountain had actually deployed… and Cordes’ first reaction was “BULLSHIT… they are in the bomb-proof safety zone and they had plenty of time to get there”.

                    But Cordes has still never said exactly WHEN Captain Reyes ( of Engine 59 ) told him that.

                    If we accept the ‘timing’ above… then it appears that happened just moments before the Russ Reason video began.

                    Reply

        • And I also need to say, here, at this point in this conversation, why (other than all this morning stuff) I don’t trust Rance Marquez’ narrative in general.

          My mistrust, (beyond his not-so-accurate-in-my-humble-opinion-regarding-the-morning-narrative) also is compounded by the fact that his narrative of what happened that afternoon seriously doesn’t correspond to the visual evidence. I wrestled with that mightily for quite some time.

          This is what Rance said in his ADOSH Interview”

          “Q3: Okay. And so when you go ahead and describe then what the – what the rest of
          1404 your uh, rest of your day was?
          1405

          1406 A: Uh, after the fire got um, was no longer a threat to the structures, we organized a
          1407 little bit of mop up and um, I heard that and then right after that – right after the
          1408 fire front passed those houses and the smoke kind of just subsided a little bit, um,
          1409 I heard air – air to ground, which I’m at the time, I was told it was Lead 1-1, um,
          1410 asking someone on the ground if they could see the helicopter and then um, a little
          1411 bit later, I heard them ask if they could hear the helicopter which that got me uh, I
          1412 knew something was not right exactly. Didn’t know what and then um, there was
          1413 a loud – someone yelled into the radio and uh, and then who- and the Air Attack
          1414 responded by whoever was yelling into the radio to please stop and uh, then he
          1415 just kept calling for Granite Mountain. There was never a response after that.”

          That is not what happened, even remotely.

          And there’s more of that but I’m not gonna copy and paste all of it, but it’s equally not accurate, according to the visual evidence.

          Rance Marquez passed in front of the Air2Air camera going east at 3:51 PM.

          At 4:15 PM his truck is in the Jake Guadiana video.

          He is seen driving up to the Shrine area and then turning around in Aaron’s video (I can’t get the time on that because I can’t access the video because I haven’t schlepped my hard drives around the corner). But we know, generally speaking, when that was.

          How much else did he forget or disremember? And why?

          So that’s, honestly, why I don’t trust Rance’s narrative as a be all and end all framework for accurately understanding what was actually going on.

          Reply

          • And another thing.

            From what I remember from way back when, one thing I remember was somebody (Robert the Second?) saying that Cougan Carothers very definitely was not even remotely interested in being interviewed by ADOSH. That interview didn’t just randomly not happen.

            In my mind there is just something not right in all of this. And I don’t know what it is.

            And PS. For the reasons I wrote below, I’m not convinced that Gary Cordes is just sitting there on the side of 89 watching the fire in that video.

            So you, WTKTT, may be right. But I’m not convinced.

            That’s why I said that absent a testimony from Cougan Carothers, I don’t think it’s possible to accurately evaluate all of this.

            Reply

            • And, as I wrote downstream, Marquez’ truck and that camper-covered truck are parked together on July 1.

              Why?

              When Gary Cordes was interviewed by ADOSH, he couldn’t even remember Rance Marquez’ name.

              Reply

              • And, to be perfectly honest, I don’t even, all things considered, understand why, all of a sudden, right now, a year and a half after I finally basically gave up on trying to identify all these vehicles because it was pretty clear that nobody else really gave a darn and everybody else had moved on to more important things………

                Why does it matter now?

                I mean, really, what difference does it make in the general scheme of things?

                Somebody please riddle me this.

                Reply

                • I mean, really, what difference does it make which truck Gary Cordes was driving and which truck was Cougan Carothers driving?

                  Reply

                • OK. I have to confess.

                  At one point in time, a year and a half ago, this mattered to me a lot because the visual record didn’t even remotely sync with Rance Marquez’ narrative, and that bothered me a whole lot.

                  I wondered, “What is he hiding and why??????”

                  And is Cougan Carothers hiding something? And why??

                  Why would Rance’s narrative not match the visual record and why would Cougan have obstructed the ADOSH investigation?

                  I was really bothered by that. Then.

                  But nobody else was so, since I was sick of trying to figure out all these vehicles while everybody else was more interested in other things, I finally said to myself “Screw it” and put it all to bed on my computer.

                  If you’re actually really interested in vehicles, the Incident Management Team truck is a real piece of cake.

                  And if you’re really interested in people, that guy in the red helmet in the Ranch House Restaurant (who I used to think was Tony Sciacca, all things considered) who is pacing and waiting and the instant Darell Willis pulls up goes directly to talk to him for a bit and then keeps pacing the parking lot — I’d REALLY like to know who he is.

                  (Could that be Dean Steward??)

                  But would anybody else want to know? Is this important? Is this not important? Who decides what (that is still not resolved) is important or not important?

                  Meanwhile………..WHO CARES?????????

                  Reply

    • WTKTT,

      In looking through Joy’s photos I noticed something that I am wondering if you have seen, or maybe its my old eyes playing tricks on me. Photo 356 of 366 or JPG 100_0324 appears to have a dozer in the lower right of the photo working toward the structure – have you already seen this? Or is it just a big yellowish colored rock?

      Reply

      • I know the photo you are referring to ( 100_324.JPG ).

        That is a photo that Joy took from the passenger side of the vehicle she was traveling in as she was evacuating from Yarnell down the south part of Highway 89.

        The ‘view’ is actually to the northwest ( from the southeast )… and the ‘orange glow’ over the horizon represents the fire actually burning out in the box canyon and moving into the western parts of Glen Ilah.

        As for what you are seeing in the lower right of the photo ( right near that structure )… I don’t think that’s a dozer.

        The ‘light’ that seems to be on there seems more like it’s on the front of the structure itself ( and not a dozer cage light or headlight ).

        There is another similar ‘point of light’ off on the LEFT side of the photo… near that other ( larger ) structure.

        As for why it LOOKS like it might be a dozer ( the yellow object near the structure )… I haven’t a clue.

        Maybe it IS. Seems absurd it would have been there, in that location, just trying to do something for one small house… but as we have learned over the course of this discussion… the minute we think something might have been ‘absurd’… there is evidence to suggest the ‘absurd’ was ruling the day, that day.

        Good eye… and thanks for noticing this.

        KEEP LOOKING!

        Reply

        • Followup…

          That ‘100_324.JPG’ photo mentioned above is at the BOTTOM of that page showing Joy Collura’s photos.

          It’s the FIRST picture on the LEFT in the THIRD row up from the BOTTOM of that SAIT Dropbox folder containing some of Joy Collura’s photos.

          ALSO…

          ** SATELLITE VIEW ALSO SHOWS ‘YELLOW’ OBJECTS?

          If you go to Google maps and ‘zoom down’ on the south side of Yarnell… where those two houses are located… you will see that they both survived the fire.

          But if you look closely at the ‘house in question’, where those ‘yellow dots’ seem to be seen in the photo… you can STILL see two ‘objects’ there in front of the house that ( even with a top-down satellite view ) that appear to be YELLOW…. and they also appear to be in the same exact relative location in front of that house as seen in Joy Collura’s photograph.

          The exact latitude/longitude for those 2 ‘yellow objects’ sitting out in front of that small structure would be…

          34.207725, -112.755533

          Just cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of ‘Google Maps’ and a map will appear with a ‘balloon marker’ sitting right between these two objects in front of that small structure that seem to be reading as ‘yellow objects’ even from earth orbit.

          Reply

    • REPLY BELOW:

      Actually… this gets very simple.

      Joy… are you reading this?

      You don’t have to remember the EXACT time these two photos were taken… but do you remember whether it was definitely in the MORNING ( as in… before NOON )?

      *****replied by email below because I have not been to I M for a bit…trying to do some projects away from pc…I will be visiting Yarnell 2-7pm than hiking down the Weavers tomorrow back home to Congress. I am looking for someone to help me shave my head and cut off the golden locks and start fresh—I want to thank WWTKTT because I FINALLY got my answers without the State Land Park and in that so grateful to WWTKTT because in link you posted I got to see http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Memorial_PowerPoint_04-10-15.pdf

      YEAH! YAY!!! I have waited for detailed information and all I come off is some lady who wants to go to meetings and really I do not even want to be present or engage or participate because I know I am not even welcome there number one (everyone has shown they adore Sonny especially Karen Fann who bought him gifts…as he seem to be left alone throughout this process just me was singled out) but the map in link above should be posted in Yarnell on bulletin boards and I should of got this too because its most detailed and I never ever knew the 320 acres ran that way in that direction—I thought it ran wide imminent domain areas but no people told me after asking alot of different areas—people; just wanted to talk shit about me versus properly sharing this link above. Thank you WWTKTT. Now in seeing THAT purchased 320 acres map…the widows are correct. I took pretty much every hike in the area because I sent the reply map of my hikes to either Paxon or Payne that July 2013 highlighting direction I would be taken—would have to look in files I printed up to which man….even talking to Steve the state land trespassing officer—and it was acceptable to hike the mountaintop—I never was told no and I was never EDUCATED anything different and first I ever heard I was in restricted areas was from flying rumors in Fall 2014 that I was trying to find facts and was getting bullshit versus help but the rumors said that I was hiking folks to the site and that was NOT TRUE and was very offended by it especially WHY JUST ME and not the other hiker EVER MENTIONED when rumors flew…than in the first week of January 2015 I learned the two track was off limits and then confirmed it with Max Masel but today seeing the map in the above link…freaking too many—number would be in the thousands who violated such besides me including the other hiker and MANY reading this page right now…THAT IS WHY IT IS CRUCIAL FOR THEM TO PROPERLY SET BOUNDARIES AND SIGNAGE—I want to publicly apologize for keeping a stance I was innocent yet it was based on what was given to me so in what information I had I felt I was innocent…just so you know…Now, since getting the map in January not a soul can say I have been even in the area except the week of when the men died I was walking towards Helms with Grant Scott McKee introduced him to Bruce and McCrackens and I wanted permission to be in area from a higher up because I was not going to push the part and yet Sonny was more at ease to hike with people but he was not at ease with going with Phil M of GMHS or Mr. McKee because Sonny felt a bit off and has been really as he stated the other day a bit off on the topic ever since…God guiding Mr. McKee to our lives ruined me and Sonny’s knowing another Sonny stated. MY door is always open to Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) yet he has too many times used that week as his “out” to want to continue to know me…Sonny point blank does not want to hike the loved ones or anyone not even me and he has gone forward with his life. I can’t hike anyone but will always be available to help properly assess the YHF. Sonny feels we both have given our ALL and always been available for every person trying to figure out how 19 men died. Our time is done. That is his take. My take is if anyone wants to share their photos locally…anyone who was on the fire and wants to finally speak up and use me as their voice—just know I am not going anywhere. I live in Congress. I have a new job since my trails with Sonny ended. I am helping a few on some projects. I am going over to Yarnell to review some photos and hopefully it will help properly assess the fire and maybe some more new photos with vehicles and firefighters—until the day I pass on my door is open to all— (480) 280-5813 leave me a detailed message and I will get back as soon as I can.
      I have been tormented with such unneeded turmoil during another’s way of thinking…can anyone tell me after all the childhood stuff and teen stuff and young adult stuff and I have my best friend since the 80’s; my husband help carry me through—I am never looking to have a storybook way of life—I just want my hikes and my freedoms and my constitutional rights to walk across this here land of America…I made a vow not to dwell in others’ miseries anymore–I just want my rights and stop the horseshit of restricting my individualism…what I have learned from the YHF—and from my hikes with Sonny. NOBODY is going to make me into their nightmares of a vision…In closing, the YHF….
      ——-In truth, the real nature of things lies behind a veil of MYSTERY—-the root causes of events are hidden from our sight.—–

      email between wwtktt and me:
      Mon, Oct 12, 2015 at 11:16 AM

      I was asking you if you happen to remember if these photos were taken in the MORNING
      ( as in, sometime before NOON ).
      *****absolutely took them in morning and way before noon…more like 10:18-11am mark

      You do NOT have to remember the EXACT time.
      *****Sonny had me take vehicle photos and I can tell you it was not at 10:28-10:43am because I was on phone with people so more like 10:18-10:28 or 10;43-11am

      Reply

  34. **
    ** CAMPERTOP, CAMPERTOP… WHOSE GOT THE CAMPERTOP?

    >> Reply to October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm by Marti Reed
    >>
    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.
    >>
    >> Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.
    >> Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

    I actually wouldn’t say the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top is the ‘bigger’ one, ( size-wise ) but that is neither here nor there… nor is it the most obvious ‘difference’.

    The obvious difference between these two CYFD Red-with-white-stripes command vehicles is that one of them has a camper top… and the other one does not ( but does have a standard silver toolbox installed in the bed ).

    So let’s get back to basics for a moment and try to do a final ‘nail down’ on whether the evidence proves, without any doubt, WHO was driving that CYFD pickup with the camper top ( Cordes or Caruthers )… and WHO was driving the other one WITHOUT the camper top.

    I *thought* we had this nailed down a long time ago… but here we are again… so let’s try to ‘put this one to bed’ once and for all.

    I honestly think you have it backwards, and the opposite of what I *thought* we had already proved sometime way back when.

    And here is just one reason why…

    Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich took photos of that ‘meeting’ that took place circa NOON out in the Sesame area when DIVSZ Rance Marquez and his assigned assistant that day ( Cougan Caruthers ) first showed up out there to assess the situation.

    In Papich’s photo named IMG_3952… the left side of the photo shows the vehicles they ( Marquez and and Caruthers ) used to get out there.

    The photo shows the Red-with-white-stripes CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top sitting there with its door open… just 20 feet to the left of where Marquez and Caruthers were having that meeting.

    I don’t think Gary Cordes was ever even AT that meeting, at that time, so that would seem to be proof-positive that Cougan Caruthers was the one driving the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top that day.

    In his ADOSH interview… Rance Marquez actually goes into some pretty fine detail about this intial scouting mission he was doing out there. He related to ADOSH that at one point he ( and Caruthers ) had gone all the way out to where Ball and the Dozer were working… and met with them… and then he says they came back to the ‘clearing’ where the Blue Ridge Trucks were parked ( Papich’s photos ) and then actually met with Frisby and Brown there after they had ‘come down’ from their face-to-face with Marsh and Steed…

    …but at NO time does Marquez mention Gary Cordes as having been out there in that timeframe or one of the ones he ‘met with’ out there.

    If I have gone totally brain dead on this… and Gary Cordes really WAS present at that meeting out there at that time being captured in the Papich photos… then which one of the four FFs seen in the photo is Cordes?

    I don’t see him ( Cordes ) standing there.

    ** RANCE MARQUEZ’S ADOSH INTERVIEW SAYS CORDES WAS NOT AT THAT MEETING

    Actually… I just found that part in Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview where I thought he had CONFIRMED that Gary Cordes did NOT attend that meeting out there… and so whichever CYFD pickup was ‘seen’ out there MUST have been the one Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

    Marquez told ADOSH that as he and Cougan Caruthers were headed out there… they met with Cordes at what Marquez described as a ‘grocery store / gas station’ ( The mini-mart? ) and Cordes just CONSULTED with them about how to get out to the Sesame area… but Cordes did NOT end up going out there with them.

    Marquez said that at the time he and Cougan met with Cordes to get ‘directions’ out to the Sesame area, Cordes was (quote) “busy organizing incoming crews and engines”.

    Marquez said Cordes just “gave them the directions” and then he and Cougan Caruthers proceeded out there WITHOUT Gary Cordes.

    Here is exactly what Rance Marquez told ADOSH…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    266 Gary Cordes was structure group – was the other – was the structure group in
    267 Yarnell. Now I got uh, in – tied in with him right there at the grocery store and
    268 uh, and gas/gas station etcetera and um, he kind of got me s- got myself and
    269 Cougan um, dialed in as to where the road access was and that kind of stuff back
    270 into the area where Eric and – where Eric was working – well, where Granite
    271 Mountain and um, also Blue Ridge…
    272
    273 Q3: Right.
    274
    275 A: …was in – were in.
    276
    277 Q3: Well when you were at…
    278
    279 A: And the dozer.
    …
    …
    377 A: They had two structure groups, so they were busily getting – getting prepared
    378 for that. Um, talking with Gary my short time, he – he was busy organizing
    379 incoming crews and engines as well. Was trying to get them figured out on where
    380 – where their priorities were. So again, it was a – an emergency – or an emerging
    381 incident.
    382
    383 Q3: Okay. So you – you dro- drove from ICP down to Yarnell did you and did I get
    384 that right?
    385
    386 A: Yes.
    387
    388 Q3: And you tied in with Cordes?
    389
    390 A: I did.
    391
    392 Q3: Ok, did he – did he uh, did he talk to you at all about uh, safety zones and pre-
    393 identified safety zones?
    394
    395 A: He did not and I don’t think he had – well, I don’t know what – what he thought,
    396 but he gave me the – the directions because even though the signs say – well the
    397 map said one thing. A lot of the homeowners had put up their own homemade
    398 road signs. Was kind of comical because he said the – the primary way in was
    399 Sesame Street so I had to find my way to Sesame Street, but it wasn’t on any –
    400 it’s not any other map. It was so – just its…
    401
    402 Q3: Right.
    403
    404 A: …it was just a handmade sign that somebody had put on there.
    405
    406 Q3: All right. So you saw – you – you met with uh, Cordes in person?
    407
    408 A: I did.
    409
    410 Q3: Okay. Did – then uh, so uh, how did you contact Marsh? Did you go out and talk
    411 to him?
    412
    413 A: Mark or Marsh?
    414
    415 Q1: Marsh.
    416
    417 Q3: Marsh. Excuse me.
    418
    419 A: Uh, yeah.
    420
    421 Q3: Division Alpha.
    422
    423 A: Division Alpha. Yes. I – I drove out to the fire area um, through Sesame Street,
    424 through the – through the – through Yarnell, hit the uh, the wildland area and on
    425 the way out, actually drove by uh, buggies from – from Blue Ridge. There was
    426 uh, commo in there’s kind of weird cause it’s – I – I don’t know if the granite eats
    427 it or what, but sometimes you line of sight stuff, you think you be able to get it
    428 and other times, you can’t and it’s just a – um, I kind of experienced the same
    429 stuff on the Doce Fire where commo didn’t seem to be exactly great and I – and I
    430 don’t know why. It wasn’t cause we couldn’t see them. I could actually see
    431 Granite Mountain working uh, up on the hill and uh, anyway, I finally made
    432 contact with – with Eric and – and we chatted a bit.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    So that’s the ‘story’ according to Rance Marquez himself.

    He and Cougan Caruthers just met with SPGS1 Gary Cordes while they were headed down to Yarnell ( at the mini-mart? ) and all Cordes did was give them ‘directions’ on how to get out to the Sesame area once they got down to Yarnell.

    But Gary Cordes did NOT go ‘with them’.

    So that means the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top photographed by Papich out there for that ‘meeting’ in the Sesame area MUST have been the vehicle Cougan Caruthers was driving. At least at THAT time ( 12:00 – 12:30 PM ), anyway.

    The OTHER piece of evidence that I thought we had already gone over that established Gary Cordes driving the pickup WITH the camper top was that photo that Joy Collura took that morning, around the time the Blue Ridge vehicles were first ‘arriving’ out in the Sesame area.

    One of Joy’s photos taken in that same timeframe ( 10:30 AM ish ) shows that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top out there in the Sesame area… with it’s driver door open and what looks for all the world like Gary Cordes standing in front of it.

    I had thought we had established that this was actually Joy capturing what could have been the ‘hand off’ moment when Cordes was turning control of the dozer over to BR Hotshot Cory Ball.

    Even if that wasn’t that exact moment… the TIME for this photo was in the MORNING, when Gary Cordes was KNOWN to have been out in that area and a good 2 HOURS before Rance Marquez and Cougan Caruthers would ever show up out there in the 12:00 – 12:30 PM timeframe.

    So there is additional proof ( we thought? ) that Gary Cordes was definitely driving that CYFD pickup that DID have the ‘camper top’ on it.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      And just to ( hopefully ) speed this up to some kind of conclusion… I think I can anticipate some of the “Well… what about this?” comebacks.

      Let me try to pre-comment on those just for the sake of time.

      ** What about the Jake Guadiana video ?

      >> On October 10, 2015 at 3:31 pm, Marti Reed said…
      >>
      >> This Jake Guadiana video shows both Lance and Cougan with their trucks
      >> standing by the roadside watching the fire:
      >>
      >> USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi

      https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABtgGDgNOKkhnX1Q4E6v4q0a/Photos%20and%20Video/AZFS%20photos%20videos/USB%20YARNELL%20HILL%20020.avi?dl=0

      Look carefully at the drivers side window of the CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that is seen in this video.

      If that is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE the CYFD pickup WITH the camper back ( and it very will might be )… then whose left elbow ( wearing a Nomex shirt ) is that seen sticking out of the driver’s side of the CYFD pickup-with-campertop itself?

      At the +11 second mark, as the camera was ZOOMING near the driver’s window of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top is the best view of what appears to be someone with a Nomex shirt on sitting in the driver’s seat with their elbow leaning on the window sill.

      I would believe that the FF with the ‘X’ sweat marks on the back of his shirt is Cougan Caruthers… but there really does appear to be another FF already sitting in the driver’s seat of the CYFD pickup in the same video.

      That means it would have been Gary Cordes.

      I don’t know where the other CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top might have been or WHY it isn’t also showing up in the same video… but I would say that if that really is Cougan Caruthers standing OUTSIDE that vehicle… and there really was another FF sitting in the drivers’s seat of that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top… then that is must more proof that Gary Cordes really was driving the one WITH the camper top… and Cougan Caruthers was driving the one WITHOUT the camper top.

      By the way… I know this all goes back to the original WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson was asking about… and whether or not any of THOSE FFs could have been the ones talking to Marsh circa 4:13 PM… so it’s interesting to note that if we can trust the TIMESTAMPS on this Jake Guadiana video ( 4:16 PM )… then right there in this photo are at least FOUR FFs who COULD have been the ones having those 4:13 to 4:18 PM radio conversations with Eric Marsh… and they might have been doing it from RIGHT THERE at one of those three concrete driveways on the west side of Hwy 89 there north of the town of Yarnell.

      Here is the actual FULL TRANSCRIPT of that Jake Guadiana video as was posted back in Chapter XI ( Chapter 11 ) of this ongoing discussion…

      ——————————————————————————————
      File Name: USB YARNELL HILL 020.avi
      File Size: 17 MB
      File Type: AVI
      Date/Time Original: 2011:03:07 04:16:46
      Software: CanonMVI06
      Duration: 15.31 s

      Actual Date/Time: Sunday, June 30, 2013 @ 4:16:46 PM

      NOTE: This is the video taken looking west from Highway 89 just north of Yarnell proper with what appears to be Rance Marquez, Cougan Caruthers and Tony Sciacca conferring in front of the white cattle fence across the road.

      +0:00
      (Foreground: Unknown 1): That one can certainly wait.

      +0:01
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): ( To John Burfiend
      in B33 ) He said… both parties should be waitin’ ( in the attack area? ) ( to call ? ).

      +0:04
      (Foreground: Unknown 3): ( Laughing )

      +0:05
      (B33 – John Burfiend): Okay… soooo… right up against the pulse there… that’s where
      we’re gonna ( be droppin’ )?

      +0:07
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): What are you concerned about?

      +0:08
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): Nuthin’. Catching sumthin?

      +0:10
      (Foreground: Unknown 1 ): ( Laughing )
      (Foreground: Unknown 3 ): ( Also laughing )

      +0:11
      (Background: Unknown 2: Sounds like OPS1 Todd Abel ): That’s when I’m clearin’ fire
      around that structure… and they’re gonna get in the ( road ) ( VIDEO ENDS AND
      CUTS OFF THE NEXT WORD ).

      +0:15.31 – END OF VIDEO
      ———————————————————————————

      Reply

      • Followup 2…

        ** What about the Swartz photo?

        Again… in the interests of just pre-commenting on all possible ‘comebacks’… let me just point out that I believe the ‘Swartz’ photo referenced below was taken just MINUTES before or after the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ posted by Gary Olson.

        That CYFD pickup WITHOUT the camper top ( and with the standard silver toolbox installed at the top of the bed ) is in the EXACT SAME SPOT in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR parking lot in the exact same place.

        In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other yellow Nomex shirts around him.

        He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from a distance.

        There’s no question that that is the same FF seen in BOTH the Swartz photo and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’… and he’s seen standing in almost the exact same place for both photos.

        That means the two photos were taken very close together.

        As a matter of fact… the Swartz photo shows us who might have actually TAKEN the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’.

        Look at the right side of the Swartz photo… at the FF with the RED Helmet and the white towel/cloth wrapped around his face.

        He is obviously already ‘shooting photos’ in that timeframe with a smartphone that he is holding out in front of his face.

        This same FF with the red helmet could have been the one who then took the other WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ either just before or just after Swartz took HIS photo of him already ‘taking pictures’ there.

        So the bottom line here is that the CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop that is seen in BOTH the ‘Swartz’ and the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ is actually more likely the one that Cougan Caruthers was driving that day.

        The FF with the black helment on the left side of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ might very well be Cougan Caruthers. Certainly when he knew he was being assigned to the medical team he would have ‘geared up’ and replaced his ball cap with a (black?) helmet.

        So there is every chance one of those FF’s there is Caruthers… but Gary Cordes is nowhere to be seen in either of these photos.

        By the way… if the timestamp of 18:43 ( 6:43 PM ) being displayed on the Swartz photo itself can be trusted.. then I believe that also puts a close time onto the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ itself.

        6:43 PM sounds/looks about right for BOTH of these photos.

        It wasn’t *quite* dark yet ( but getting there )… and 6:43 PM would have been more than enough time for the ‘spot fires’ seen in the background of the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ to have been burning there down Highway 89 and on the EAST side of Glen Ilah.

        Reply

        • Actually.. there really is little doubt that that IS Cougan Carothers seen in the black helmet on the left edge of that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ that Gary Olson posted a link to.

          There is a CLEAR picture of Cougan Carothers on the Central Yavapai ‘Senior Staff’ web page… which is here…

          http://www.centralyavapaifire.org/index.cfm?section=15&pagenum=232

          If you compare that photo of Carothers with the FF in the ‘photo in question’ and just imagine him not smiling… squinting a little… and with a ‘helmet’ on… there’s not much reason to doubt that’s him.

          So that just confirms what I said above.

          That probably IS Cougan Carothers in that ‘photo in question’ and that just makes it more apparent that that CYFD pickup WITHOUT the campertop also seen in the same photo(s) is the one that HE was driving that day…

          …and Gary Cordes really was driving the CYFD pickup WITH the campertop.

          Reply

        • >> WTKTT wrote…
          >>
          >> Also… in BOTH photos… almost the exact same group of FFs
          >> can be seen ‘assembled’ there out on the edge of the RHR
          >> parking lot in the exact same place.
          >>
          >> In particular… that FF with the WHITE helmet, the chest harness
          >> with BK radio, and the ‘faded’ Nomex shirt. He’s easily identified
          >> from a distance ( in the Swartz photo ) because his Nomex shirt
          >> was either ‘off brand’ or ‘very faded’ and has almost a ‘light
          >> lemon yellow’ color to it… as compared to all the other
          >> yellow Nomex shirts around him.
          >>
          >> He’s also wearing KHAKIS… which easily identifies him from
          >> a distance.

          Speaking of ‘easily identifiable light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis’…

          I think it’s pretty safe to say that not only is that FF with the black helmet in the WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ Cougan Carothers… the FF right next to him ( facing the camera ) with that light-lemon-yellow shirt, khakis, white helmet and chest harness is, without a doubt, Rance Marquez.

          In the Blue Ridge Hotshot Papich photos taken of that meeting that Rance Marquez and Cougan Carothers had earlier in the day out in the Sesame area… there is that same ‘easily identifiable’ light-lemon-yellow shirt and khakis.

          He is standing 3rd from the left in that group of 4 FFs seen ‘meeting’ there at the top of the Sesame area.

          That has to be Rance Marquez… so the odds that is also Rance Marquez second from the left in that WORLDNEWS ‘photo in question’ are high enough ( I think ) to call it a done deal. It’s him.

          Reply

      • I’m not feeling as “done” as you are with this. And I’m just waking up after something of a rough night. But one of the reasons I’m not feeling as “done” as you are is that I never was able to be “done” with it, as hard as I tried. I really hated (and still do) working on this endless rabbit (at least it was a rabbit hole for me) that I worked on for endless amounts of time until I just finally got sick of doing it and moved on to where everybody else was at.

        I guess I missed where we talked about this and resolved it way back when. Because I resolved it all quite differently then. But it was always fraught with headaches for me and it still is. (There are still headaches in the collection that I haven’t even mentioned).

        But you may be right. Which may resolve some of the issues I walked away from this still seeing. And there are some other issues in this that I haven’t even mentioned. But I didn’t think anybody was all that interested, so I walked away from this mess and let it be a year and a half ago.

        Who do you think the person on the far left of the group lined up in Papich’s photo is? I went through a LOT of comparing photos of Gary Cordes with that person and publicly determined that that person on the end was Gary Cordes, regardless of Marquez narrative (which has a NUMBER of holes in it). The discrepancy between Marquez’ narrative and this photo (among a number of OTHER discrepancies) has left me totally scratching my head, and not even remotely trusting Marquz’ narrative.

        If you look at that photo again, you will see that that lower-slung truck with the camper shell is sitting right behind the big truck without the camper shell, sandwiched right between the big truck and the Granite Mountain Hotshots buggy.

        A number of times I called out that photo that was taken by Joy, and asked, “WTF is Cougan Carothers doing up there in that area before he should have been?????”

        Nobody responded, “Hey, Marti, that’s not Cougan’s truck, that’s Gary’s truck!!!!!!” That might have shifted my thinking a LOT earlier………………..maybe.

        So you may be right that I have the trucks switched. I hadn’t seen that nomex elbow in the video.

        So here’s another riddle-me-this. I don’t think you are right on your ID of Rance Marquez in those later photos. But who knows??

        In the Papich photo, one of the two guys on the right has khaki colored pants and the other has dark green pants. I happen to think the one in the khaki pants is Cougan Carothers and the one in the dark green pants is Rance Marquez.

        That would mean you are incorrect in your Rance ID.

        I happen to think that, in the Tom Story photos, and have said so periodically, that Rance Marquez is in that huddle over the IMT truck hood (a truck which carries another set of headaches), looking exactly like he does in the Papich photo.

        Here’s the problem. In the video (and thanks finally for the timestamp — something I asked for repeatedly way back when because I desperately needed it, and didn’t want to get the software because I really really wanted to quit doing this, but I didn’t get any response way back when, and, yeah, I had missed that nomex elbow completely)………

        There is nobody in the video wearing dark green pants. So that’s been another migraine headache for me all along. That might mean that Rance isn’t even in that video. Who knows???????

        I have all along thought that Gary Cordes was, by around 4:15 PM, busily overseeing that evacuation of that subdivision northeast of Shrine Road. Since I still don’t have my hard-drives, and, thus access to all my files, can somebody check Gary’s interview and notes and confirm to me that he wasn’t?

        Maybe he did just sit there for another 25 minutes at that great place to watch the fire after Paul Musser left and headed to Yarnell to do who knows what.

        But I’m currently not conviced.

        Another big problem in figuring out the timing of this all is that the Air2Air video only shows Rance crossing the camera, not Cougan, although they most likely did it about the same time, all things considered. Cougan must have crossed during the break in the video before Rance crossed it. Since I don’t have my files (including my extensive vehicle timelines), I can’t calculate when Rance crossed it, but it was at 0:03:27,15 on the 20130630_1626_EP.MOV video.

        There’s another photo of Rance’s truck and the camper-covered truck being all buddy-buddy (as were Rance and Cougan all through this thing), and that’s an overhead photo, taken at 10:27 AM on July 1. Actually, there a number of vehicles I was trying to identify in that photo. It is IMG_0605.JPG in the Miscellaneous Photos folder inside the ASFD Photos folder inside the Photos and Video Folder inside the ADOSH Yarnell Hill Investigation Parent Folder.

        Here’s the link to the photo: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAB0NBgR8c6fmlKi5wgpccmqa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos/IMG_0605.JPG?dl=0

        So, I guess I’m saying that, from my point of view, and my experience in this campfire circle, it isn’t as simple, and hasn’t been as simple, as you are making it seem.

        And I’m still not completely convinced of all that you are saying. For the reasons I’ve written.

        But some of it may be correct.

        Reply

  35. I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.

    But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

    This is always an evolving work in progress.

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • Marti,

      Thanks for all the photo work you did below. It helped me. However, I can’t help you with identifying Rance Marquez. I don’t know if that is him in the last link you provided below.

      Reply

      • Thanks, Robert the Second. It’s fine. Especially now that I realized the person in the black helmet we were discussing wasn’t Rance, but Cougan.

        Reply

    • **
      ** PHOTO SHOWING GARY CORDES DRIVING DOWN HIGHWAY 89
      ** TOWARDS THE RANCH HOUSE RESTAURANT

      Reply to Marti Reed post October 10, 2015 at 12:54 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I apologize for the weirdness of the threads down below regarding the
      >> photos and the attempts to identify the people in them.
      >>
      >> But sometimes that’s just how conversations here regarding things just go.

      Absolutely.

      The latest “who was where, when” roundup was actually just kicked off by Gary Olson wondering if anyone in that post-deployment photo taken at the Ranch House Restaurant might have been the one who made that ‘status check’ callout to Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM.

      The answer is still just ‘perhaps’.

      These multiple cannot-be-denied radio captures of various people communicating directly with DIVSA Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain during the same timeframe when Mike Dudley and Jim Karels and the SAIT decided to say they could not ‘verify’ that anyone was doing any such thing aren’t going away… and every time we do another ’roundup’ we actually get close to figuring out WHO some of those ‘communicators’ might be.

      According to the radio captures… we are actually still talking about probably at least THREE DIFFERENT PERSONS having these ‘direct communications’ with Marsh and GM during the time when (supposedly) no one was doing that.

      But more about that in a minute.

      As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

      ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant.

      There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

      Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.

      That calls a few parts of Gary Cordes’ testimony to ADOSH into question… but more about that later.

      I just wanted to be sure you had seen this Anna Marie Lechner photo.

      I turned it into a new YouTube video… with annotations.

      That YouTube video is HERE…

      Video Title: Gary-Cordes-on-Highway-89
      http://youtu.be/D2NdGmRqS_U

      Here’s the 411 on this Anna Marie Lechner photo…

      At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89, just 1 block SOUTH of where Shrine Road meets Highway 89.

      She took 3 different photos ( looking NORTH ) while sitting in her car.

      The THIRD photo captures Gary Cordes’ CYFD command vehicle passing by her, heading SOUTH on HIghway 89.

      There is FIRE seen in the background of the photo and a plot of that location against Google Earth indicates the fire shown in the photo was near the ‘Norton Way’ area… where Gary Cordes had been ( according to his ADOSH testimony ) making sure people were evacuating, just prior to heading down to the Ranch House Restaurant.

      Gary Cordes told ADOSH he did NOT hear the actual 4:39 – 4:43 PM MAYDAY and subsequent deployment radio traffic coming over the Air-To-Ground channel.

      According to Cordes… he had lost the ability to TRANSMIT over the Air-To-Ground channel prior to the deployment because the switch on his BK portable took a dump. He switched to his backup Motorola units which ( he said ) didn’t have the Air-To-Ground channel programmed in and he was somehow either unable to change the programming, add a channel, or just didn’t know how to… or something like that.

      Regardless… Cordes told ADOSH he wasn’t even AWARE there had been a deployment until after he arrived at the Ranch House Restaurant and was told about it by Engine Captain Reyes.

      Cordes also told ADOSH his initial reaction to the news from Reyes was…

      “BULLSHIT! They had plenty of time to get there, and they were already
      in their bomb proof safety zone”.

      Reyes then (apparently) told Cordes “No… they got cut off”.

      Actually… here is exactly what Gary Cordes told ADOSH…

      ————————————————————————
      1728 It was Engine 59 that told me that
      1729 they had transmitted over the radio, over air to ground that they had deployed
      1730 and I, and I, it was Charlie Reyes whose the, whose the engine boss down
      1731 there and I told him BS, that uh, they didn’t need to deploy ‘cause the safety’s,
      1732 they were in their safety zone and it was bomb proof and he said no, they
      1733 never got – made it there, they got cut off. And that’s when I knew obviously
      1734 something bad had most likely occurred.
      ————————————————————————

      So that’s just one more account ( from Cordes himself ) that Cordes had absolutely NO DOUBTS where Granite Mountain was going… and in what timeframe they had started the move…. when NO ONE ELSE who ever testified to ADOSH ever admitted to having that same specific knowledge.

      Reply

      • Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

        Gary’s truck is the bigger open-bed truck.

        Cougan’s is the smaller covered-bed truck.

        That’s why the first thing I thought, when I read about Gary’s truck pulled into the RHR parking lot in the Russ Reason video was, “Wait, that wasn’t Gary’s truck, that was Cougan’s.”

        It’s easy to mix the two up. But they’re different.

        Reply

        • Gary’s truck is shown in Swartz’s 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG. Which, since we were talking about it yesterday, is linked down below.

          Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 10, 2015 at 3:16 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> Thanks for that, WTKTT, but that’s not Gary’s truck. That’s Cougan’s.

          This might turn into a “smoke ’em if ya got ’em” moment for people who don’t see the point in knowing, fer sure, who was driving what vehicle that day…

          …but I think you have it backwards. I really do.

          See the following new parent comment above which presents some of the evidence that I *thought* we had already covered which proves it was the other way around…

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-311249

          Reply

        • Cougan is the one with the crossed sweatmarks on his back. Rance is the other one, in a black baseball cap.

          It drove me nuts trying to figure out who the guy in the white helmet was. I’m now thinking it could easiy be Tony Sciacca, thanks to Aaron’s videos.

          The guy in the blue helmet is from the Moki Helitack Crew, I’m pretty sure.

          Reply

          • OK. I”m going to confess something here.

            Ever since yesterday evening, I have been trying to pin down exactly when and why I decided the guy with the crossed sweatlines was Cougan and the guy without them was Rance.

            One of the reasons I decided was when a light-bulb went on in my head looking at all those photos with the guy with the crossed sweatlines and the guy I still think is Cordes together in the RHR parking lot. It just all of a sudden made sense to me that both of the CYFD Chiefs would have been together at that time in that situation.

            The other thing that I decided on was the David Kadlubowski photo of the parking lot that shows Rance Marquez sitting in his blue truck. He has a baseball cap, not a helmet, on his head.

            Here’s that famous photo (a slightly desaturated version of it that I don’t remember where I found it):

            https://www.dropbox.com/s/8xfj9mhwex3wepo/DavidPhotoRance.jpg?dl=0

            This doesn’t mean I’m POSITIVE about these two in the photos. It just says how I got there.

            I don’t have anything more definitive than that.

            Reply

      • REPLY IN CAPS BELOW TO:
        As long as we are still doing another “who was where, when” roundup… I wanted to be sure you didn’t miss one of those photos that Joy Collura found and distributed ( with full permission of the people who took the photos ) back in July.

        ONE of those photos, taken by Anna Marie Lechner, captures the moment when Gary Cordes when coming down Highway 89 from the Norton Way area and towards the Ranch House Restaurant. I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME TOGETHER—ACTUALLY I TOLD HER SHE CAN USE MY MIGUN (http://www.migunworld.com/products.php ) WHEN SHE STOPS BY TO GET A SHIRT— SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY— I WILL MAKE SHE GETS THEM ASAP

        There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area… the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.

        SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

        Gary Cordes’ vehicle would then be seen in the Russ Reason video taken circa 4:50 PM… so that means this new photo proves that Cordes had NOT been at the RHR for any length of time before the Russ Reason video. He, apparently, has just arrived there.I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

        At approximately 4:45 PM on June 30, 2013… Anna Marie Lechner was sitting in the driver’s seat of her car parked in a store lot on the EAST side of Highway 89I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

        Reply

        • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on October 10, 2015 at 6:20 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura said…
          >>
          >> I SENT THE YOUTUBE LINK TO HER AND EITHER MONDAY
          >> OR WEDNESDAY WE WILL SPEND SOME IN PERSON TIME
          >> TOGETHER… SO ANY OTHER QUESTIONS ASK AWAY

          The most important thing is whether or not she remembers EXACTLY what TIME that photo was taken.. OR… if she still has the actual ORIGINAL photo that might still have an accurate EXIF timestamp embedded in it.

          There’s a discussion that’s continuing up above about whether not it was Gary Cordes or Cougan Caruthers driving that particular truck that day… but regardless of that.. it’s still a VERY important photo and it would be great if we could nail down the EXACT time it was taken.

          >> WTKTT said…
          >>
          >> There was no definite timestamp in the EXIF data for this
          >> photo… but based on a glimpse of the fire ( in the background
          >> of the photo ) actually coming INTO the Norton way area…
          >> the TIME appears to have been right around 4:45 PM.
          >>
          >> Joy A. Collura responded…
          >>
          >> SHE CAN ANSWER THAT. SHE LIVES RIGHT BEHIND THE
          >> PLACE OF BARBARA HAMILTON’S AND SHE WAS DRIVING
          >> FROM HER HOME OUT THE ROAD CALLED HOPE WAY
          >> WHICH IS DIRECTLY ACROSS FROM POST OFFICE

          Yes. That is EXACTLY where she was when she took those 3 photos looking NORTH on Highway 89. “Hope Way” is 1 block south of where the Shrine Road meets Highway 89. She was right there where Hope Way meets Highway 89 on the EAST side of the Highway.

          >> Joy Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I THOUGHT I HEARD IT WAS NOT GARY’S PHOTO BACK
          >> IN JULY—MAYBE I AM WRONG…

          There is a discussion ongoing up above about that right now. There IS compelling evidence that Gary Cordes WAS driving that CYFD pickup WITH the camper top that day.

          >> Joy A. Collura also said…
          >>
          >> I WOULD THINK SHE WAS ON HOPE WAY BUT CONFIRM
          >> THIS WEEK WHEN SHE IS HERE

          Yes. She was ( at intersection of Hope Way and Hwy 89 ).

          That’s already confirmed.

          What we need to know is does she remember the exact TIME… and/or does she still have an original copy of the photo that might have an accurate TIME/DATE stamp?

          Reply

  36. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – SELF INFLICTED INJURY?

    Huge disclaimer: Brendan McDonough is still listing his ‘occupation’ on his PUBLIC Facebook page as “Public Figure”… and the posts he is making there are also totally PUBLIC. You don’t even have to be a ‘Friend’ of Brendan’s to see all the posts he makes.

    HELPFUL TIP FOR ANYONE/EVERYONE: If you do NOT want some of your Facebook ( or Twitter ) posts to be read by the general public… then you MUST set some kind of ‘privacy’ level for them other than ‘totally PUBLIC’. Google itself knows how to ‘see’ public posts on both Facebook and Twitter… so even if someone is just doing a ‘Google’ search for something else ( like recent newspaper articles ) Google will still return direct links to PUBLIC Facebook and Twitter posts.

    Just yesterday… Brendan made one of ongoing ‘public’ announcements regarding all these speaking engagements he is doing. The most recent one was a guest speaker at an event at the Milwaukee Fire Academy.

    There is still no word about what Brendan is actually SAYING in these speeches/talks he is doing.

    But just below that speaking engagement post is another TOTALLY PUBLIC post ( with a picture ) that Brendan made just 72 hours ago… on Tuesday, October 6, 2015.

    The post is Brendan himself talking ( to anyone and everyone ) about what appears to be a recent self-inflicted injury.

    He also posted a totally PUBLIC photo of the damage he did to himself.

    Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…

    https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough

    The PHOTO he posted… and then commented on… is of his own hand and it shows a huge, ugly, nasty GASH on the inside of the thumb on his left hand.

    It appears ( from the comments Brendan himself makes that accompany this photo ), that the wound was NOT the result of a pure accident.

    Since that post is/was TOTALLY PUBLIC… here is exactly what he said…

    ——————————————————————
    Brendan Mcdonough – October 6 at 8:47pm ·

    Well this happened today, more mad at myself because I thought the world was working against me when it’s vice versa. I was slamming t post hard for the wrong reasons. Sometimes I have to stop, breathe and understand no matter what I go through he’s got me Gods got me. He’s proven it time and time but I fail to listen. Thank you God for always finding ways to teach me lessons even tho some are harder than I would like.
    ——————————————————————

    So Brendan’s own ( totally PUBLIC ) comments seem to indicate it wasn’t a complete accident.

    That really is a nasty gash… and I hope Brendan gets that properly taken care of.
    It really looks like it needed to be stitched.

    As Marti continually reminds us… the Yarnell fire is, in fact, STILL BURNING.

    Reply

    • The first thing that came to my mind:

      West Side Story – Gee Officer Krupke! (1961) HD

      “DIESEL: (As Judge) Right!

      Officer Krupke, you’re really a square;
      This boy don’t need a judge, he needs an analyst’s care!
      It’s just his neurosis that oughta be curbed.
      He’s psychologic’ly disturbed!

      ACTION
      I’m disturbed!

      JETS
      We’re disturbed, we’re disturbed,
      We’re the most disturbed,
      Like we’re psychologic’ly disturbed.”

      https://youtu.be/j7TT4jnnWys

      Reply

      • A t post is a metal post used in fencing. He was slamming it hard for the wrong reason. No one says it was because of yarnell… Just my opinion

        Reply

        • Yes… but it’s still odd what Brendan actually SAYS about what happened… and the WAY he was describing the incident.

          Even most of the ‘commenters’ on that PUBLIC Facebook ‘announcement’ he made ( with injury photo ) seemed to be ‘reading a lot’ into what Brendan had said… and the comments were assuming he was talking about some kind of ’emotional crisis’ that was more than just someone having an accident putting in a fence post.

          I truly hope Brendan is not ‘still in crisis mode’. I really do.

          Reply

    • I have no clue when Sonny will read this but I haven’t been around him since TDW stopped by but I do look forward to his remarks on this topic—the man who can have a chainsaw hit his leg and have it so bad bloody and dangling with no ER but keeps on going like no big deal…

      Yet I believe peoples perceptions are quite imbalanced on topic of the use of the word ACCIDENT

      pet peeve of mine I guess

      People saying like Donut on ABC interview that this was not a bad decision-
      yet 19 lives are lost-
      with much information still out there not yet public—
      ???
      really.
      what is going on???
      why Donut— it does hurt me deeply because Donut has seen me in person a few times but never could look me in the eyes—like I am some disgusting person type of gal you would not want to be caught talking to—
      I named alot of people on I M who should be talking but in a recent overhearing conversation a few in the aerial field that was present for the YHF—they can help on missing elements too as well as some media archives that are no longer public.

      A few years back I got a knock on my door from YCSO—they stated my neighbor was aware of my perimeter cameras and wondered if I had any footage of three boys next door jumping off the roof on to the trampoline badly injuring a preteen sports hero and I said probably because my cameras cover 2 feet above my fencing area to capture anyone jumping in or out of my yard but I had no interest in helping anyone out without a court order because I keep to myself. When the other neighbor got wind I might have footage she came right up to my face in a toned spit in my face way stating “my daughter was in a car accident…do you think I want footage of that?”…keep in mind the footage shows not good for her kid and two others— my reply to her besides I did not and was not showing my perimeter footage to anyone and my reply to her/Donut when in this interview (http://www.cbsnews.com/news/brendan-mcdonough-hotshot-who-survived-deadly-arizona-fire-opens-up/) he feels he was spared what he calls a “horrible, freak accident.”
      HELLO!!!
      reallyyyy…..
      Like I told my neighbor and Donut and the world now—
      There are accidents…yet there is also the calculations of the other A word—
      AVOIDABILITY
      Donut, your recent injury—was it a accident or something avoidable just like the results we saw on the YHF?

      I define accident different.
      Like by accident I got pulverized by a football star at North High back in the 80’s when I was not even at the school long—pretty new student– and knew no one. 14 black women came up to me and said “I heard you are telling people you are pregnant with Cedrick’s baby”…I replied “I am new to the school and wrong person”…she aggressively thrusted her body into mine and said “don’t lie to me b i t c *—that’s my bo–you watch it—I am going to kill you.” A song artist named Teddy walked by and told them to knock it off or he would tell security. They walked off. As I was going up the stairs Teddy said “you new here” and I said yes…he said no white gal like you needs to be in a school like this…leave now…the people you just saw will have you killed by the end of the day. I did not believe it. I am in English Lit. and this very strong black man removed my chair that links to desk with ME in it outside and I remember just like it happened—so strong of a memory—
      he grabbed me by the throat out of the desk with chair connection and threw me up against the brick building with full force and starting pounding me with a might I never felt first to my face different areas than to my stomach than one hit took my breath completely out of me and I was down on the ground. I knew my eyes were messed up because it was hard to see and I was gushing blood. I see noone around but him. I heard the door to the classroom open but I cant scream or barely breathe but I have no clue why or how I did the following but as soon as his attention drew to the door opening I bolted into the building running up the stairs THINKING I would be safe in girls bathroom. I lock the stall using the toilet water to wash the blood off my eyes that were burning badly when the blood glazed over my face. I felt wrong person…I would hate to be that girl they think I am..and then I thought I hate to be me— that they think I am this other person. Was this an accident or wrong place wrong time…how does one define it. I really took a blow so hard I was barely breathing…blood was everywhere…I finally heard the door and I stood on toilet in so much pain…and this guy tore the door off the stall and again grabbed me like a football tackle and grabbed my head and forced it in the toilet. Every ounce I am typing is facts. I am being drowned. I think HOW COME LORD??? Why me? I feel I am going to die now. Is this an accident or avoidable…how do you define it…what could I have done different when others thought I was someone else? An older lady school teacher comes in and sees me in such poor condition but does not help me instead she says to Cedrick—you have to go—we have a big game and we can’t have this—I will cover for you–the lady and him leave—I try to use sink but water was not coming out plus I knew I had to leave—I run into that Teddy black guy and he said follow him—he said I could not have security or anyone see me and told me to climb a wired up fence—I thought why—I am going to the nurse office and he said yo beotch yose haz to gits—you do not get it—theysa gunna killz ya—don’t ever come back to this school. That was just the start to a very bad day indeed—because it would take me in a novel way to explain the rest that played out but let’s just say I survived the day and night but not by much…all the while my father was employed by Joe Arpaio and it was award day awhile after that bad day and one of the folks receiving an award and accolades for saving a life almost took mine that BAD day…
      I think there are accidents…but losing people I loved from 9-11 to the insidious diseases plaguing the world and my loved ones….I do believe the label ACCIDENTS is thrown so loose out in the world much too loose like the words I LOVE YOU….I gave the luv ya world a try and look where it got me…when it was meant with warmth to try and connect to people near my age when all my life I do for the elders and children at a safe distance…I have no clue to connect but I can ramble and I can share with purity my life and especially my weekend of the YHF in HOPES it brings clarity to ANYONE trying to properly assess this fire.

      I for one do not think Donut’s hand was an accident but something avoidable—

      I think for me personally it would be a honor to meet Frisby and Eric Tarr and that is just me—
      those two I have a respect for—-and would by their YHF book.

      We are having too much system and not enough individualism.

      Reply

      • We are no longer celebrated for what we are capable of accomplishing, but what we own and might own at whatever means to achieve it; honestly or not. sad.

        I could care less about what I have or don’t have as far as owning but I do care about Sonny….my family and friends and backyard critters-

        That has been WHY I always liked going back on the trails with Sonny no matter the hyde ways of the dew—he is genuine…much like I stepped into an ol’ Zane Grey western novel yet its REAL and in this day not a hundred years ago—

        Most have become conformists, so much in the pursuit of short-term happiness and gratification, that we are willing to endure corruption, degradation, and disenfranchisement…we helped raise those powers to be to have such disrespected bent behaviors, who’s influence decides the culture and morals of its citizens versus allowing people to be who they were born to be. They are given too much control.

        The time for individualism no longer belongs to the past; we must EMBRACE it today.

        It may mean hard times or chaos, but through it we will encounter some form of the sublime through our continued effort to perfect the balance between freedom and unity.

        I wish those MISSING ELEMENTS had that UNIFIED feeling to be FREE to SPEAK UP!

        Too much emphasis on the enormous pride of brotherhood and your calling is what’s keeping some of you from speaking aloud but what about the rest?

        This to me…19 heroes was and is an unbearable loss…
        I was crushed down by some black force before but nothing as hard as the crushing weight to my heart that more have not spoke up yet…

        I am physically sagged…drained…but going to see some ol celeb pals tomorrow so looking forward to that…maybe perk me up or maybe tomorrow is the day I do shave my head…

        question to people like Donut…where do you think when watching the fire walls as we did 6-30-13 was the weakening part besides you not sharing with purity to the world since then… it has been a selective way…you don’t believe me Donut—go ask local business owner and staff and church members…they told me different accounts of you sharing and to me…I stay with being pure because Mark Twain said it If you tell the truth, you don’t have to remember anything. I think you perceived that quote that TRUTH means you don’t have to remember anything…a lie travels faster than the truth…MISSING ELEMENTS please give us the time and interest on I M that we all deserve…

        Reply

  37. There are some African Americans who have fought wildfire over the years from Northern Arizona (and I’m sure other places as well besides Region 8, the south). And yes, WTKTT, all joking aside, there are pockets of African American families who have lived around Flagstaff and McNary, Arizona for almost 100 years.

    They were brought to that area by Southwest Forest Industries from Louisiana back in the 1920’s or 30’s as cheap labor when Southwest relocated all of its operations from there after they shut down their timber business in the south and moved to Northern Arizona. Talk about culture shock.

    I don’t think any of them have Cajun accents anymore though, or at least I haven’t heard any Cajun accents from the guy’s I have known over the years. The only African American I have ever seen on a Coconino Hotshot crew was on my crew and his family did come from Louisiana. But they are only a few out of tens of thousands of Anglo’s, Hispanics and Native Americans who have fought wildfires in the west.

    My original point is this…whoever that guy is in that photo or made that call on the radio in a Cajun accent, there are hundreds of people who know exactly who they/he are, and in fact…THEY even may be reading our experiment in social media and I wish someone would email me and tell me all of the things I want to know so I can spend more time playin’ on my ATV’s without thinking about all of the important things we still don’t know.

    [email protected]

    And FYI…wildland firefighting is one of the great melting pots of America and has been for decades. It is probably even a better melting pot than the U.S. military, which usually gets high marks in that area. In fact, both of my primary sponsors and mentors as a hotshot crew boss were Hispanic Fire Management Officers, and they never held my pasty white Scandinavian skin against me at all. I’m not saying there isn’t racism in the business, it’s just very rare.

    Now if you are a woman, or gay…now that hasn’t traditionally been such a rosy scenario, but maybe it is better today than it was back in the day?

    Reply

    • Well…I now realize this entire race discussion is just one more rabbit trail since it now appears that the sighting of an African American wildland firefighter on the Yarnell Hill Fire is probably false. Method reported down below it is the blue emergency light that is most likely giving them the blue smurf color. It is still unknown however, it there could have been a Cajun on the fire or not?

      Say…I have a great idea, why don’t some of YOU PEOPLE who are sitting on all of this information just come out from behind the circled wagons and give it up? It is the right thing to do. The GMIHC will still be heroes. Like I have said before, the truth didn’t change how Pat Tillman is viewed by the public.

      But for anyone who is interested in this particular rabbit trail as a historical reference point, and now that I think about it…I have NEVER even seen an Asian American wildland firefighter. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, I’m just saying I have never seen one.

      Reply

      • Sorry, I’ve been in a class all day.

        When I first looked at that image, way back when, I did say I thought that fire-fighter with the yellow helmet, facing away from the camera, was black. And then, once I realized that photo wasn’t related to what I was pursuing, I dropped it.

        I have shot TONS of photos of performances with stage lighting, and it can get really weird, so I’m used to it and have done lots of editing (or not) to make those images look better (or not). I think my eye is basically as accurate as WTKTT’s ear.

        Since I still haven’t schlepped my five hard drives over, I can’t go back and look at how I looked at that photo back then.

        But I did re-download it and just color-corrected it in Lightroom (at least for that fire-fighter) by white-balancing on the black band on his helmet.

        Here is that white-balanced photo:

        https://www.dropbox.com/s/c6y0xjew9g5rpok/2618563_G.jpg?dl=0

        I also desaturated some of the red (also from the lights). So in this corrected image, everybody else’s skin tones look pretty normal. Well, Cory’s face (if that’s Cory) still looks a little purple, but that’s the headaches of mixed high-contrast low-light photography!!

        His skin is still very dark, compared to everybody else’s. And it still has something of a blue tone. So I’m still thinking he’s Black.

        There’s something pinging me from inside my memory banks that is saying there was a Black fire-fighter in one of Tom Story’s photos, but I could be mistaken on that.

        I definitely think this may be a bit of a rabbit-hole, but hey you just never know where a rabbit hole might go!!

        And I agree that just because a Black fire-fighter shows up in Central Arizona, that doesn’t mean he would have an intense southern cajun drawl.

        Sure would be nice if somebody in the know would chime in!!!!

        Reply

        • PS I also work on a color-calibrated monitor.

          Yours might not be. Which might make a difference as to how you see these things.

          Reply

          • Based on what I see he could be Indian or Hispanic as well.
            Also the BR crewman is Probably not Ball as he has no Radio or a Pencil/pin and note book in his shirt pocket Thus a Crewman.
            My 2 cents

            Reply

        • And also. The guy to camera right of the fire-fighter in question is Ed Temerowski, the Fire Chief of the Wickenburg Fire Department.

          And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure Protection from Gary Cordes that night . The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black helmet, is………..I have no clue.

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 8, 2015 at 8:28 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> And the guy to the camera left of him is, I”m pretty
            >> sure, Dan Philbin from the BLM, who took over Structure
            >> Protection from Gary Cordes that night .

            I agree. There’s one or two Tom Story photos that seem to show Dan Philbin as well right after he’d parked his truck on the WEST side of Highway 89 and exited it… but even though he’s farther away in those photos it looks like the same fella here facing the camera on the left side of this photo ( with the white helmet and chest harness ).

            >> Marti also wrote…
            >>
            >> The guy to camera left of HIM, in the black
            >> helmet, is………..I have no clue.

            That fella shows up in a number of Tom Story photos even prior to Frisby and Brown departing the RHR parking lot for their ‘ground rescue mission’. In one… he’s just leaning on the back of a Prescott Fire pickup while the other are huddled near the Blue Ridge UTV.

            He’s never been identified… but he seems to be just a ‘grunt’ ( as in… not a member of fire command that day ).

            The thing to keep in mind here is that THIS photo that Gary posted the link and that is getting re-examined was definitely talking well AFTER the deployment itself. The location of the ‘fires’ in the background indicated it could have been as late as 5:30 or so… almost an hour after the deployment.

            So yes… anyone in the RHR area could have been making all those various ‘callouts’ to Granite Mountain prior to the deployment like “Wuz yo status rat now?” and “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain”… but this photo was taken long after those radio callouts.

            I am NOT ‘absolutely sure’ the person asking ( at 4:13 PM )…

            “Granite Mountun, ( 1 word. Fire? Five? ), Wuz yo status rat now”

            …is a ‘Cajun’ at all. It’s just that I have know people who WERE and his ‘accent’ sounds like that’s what it COULD be. Cajun is different from just a regular ‘southern’ accent.

            But one of the key things here, also, is that if this person is the same one who then came back moments after that and said to Marsh…

            “10-4 Are you with Granite Mountain?”

            …seems to have acknowledged Marsh’s report about “the guys are making their way out the escape route” with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of the usual COPY or COPY THAT.

            I think that’s unusual… and it should help to identify him.

            With all the radio transmissions captured… this is the ONLY time I am hearing ANYONE acknowledge someone’s last transmission with the phrase TEN-FOUR instead of just COPY or COPY THAT.

            Even if that person saying that is NOT the one who asked the original “Wuz yo status rat now?” question… that ‘TEN-FOUR’ response should nail down whoever that really was ( if that’s what he really said ).

            Reply

          • Marti,

            I’m gonna have to disagree with you on the one guy being Dan Philbin. That is NOT Dan Philbin.

            Reply

            • Possibly Rance Marquez?

              The evidence record says that even though most people in fire command seemed to have no idea where Rance Marquez ( DIVSZ ) was for most of the afternoon… they DO report ‘running into him’ again there at the Ranch House Restaurant following the deployment..

              So maybe that’s him ( in the white helmet, left side of photo )?

              Reply

              • Caveat: Before I get jumped on for the statement above… after the ADOSH interview transcripts became public ( thanks again to Mr. John Dougherty ) it became clear that Rance Marquez didn’t just ‘vanish’ after he had that sort-of-an-argument with Marsh circa NOON-THIRTY and then he left the south side of the fire. Marquez went back up to the school and ‘reported’ to ( Planning ) OPS2 Paul Musser… but Musser sort of blew him off because he was busy. So Marquez then just got involved with some point protection stuff that was going on up there on the NORTH end of the fire.

                When I said “most of fire-command’ didn’t seem to know where he was until they ‘ran into him’ again later at the Ranch House Restaurant… I am talking about the people in DIVSZ itself… the DIVS that Marquez was assigned earlier that day to supervise ( the southeast end of the fire which included Yarnell and Glen Ilah ).

                That would be SPGS1 Gary Cordes, BR Supt. Frisby, TLFD(t) Esquibel… and yes… both DIVSA Marsh and the actual Field OPS1 Todd Abel.

                Reply

                • Here is exactly what DIVSZ Rance Marquez himself said he did after he left the south part of the fire and returned up to the Model Creek Elementary school…

                  From Rance Marquez’s one-and-only ADOSH interview
                  on September 23, 2013…

                  ————————————————-
                  A: Well after I left the area, I went back to ICP. I tied in with uh, with Mussers. I didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I – what I’d found and that there just wasn’t any good options there cause I couldn’t really raise them on the radios and about that time, things started to get really busy. Uh, fire intensity picked up um, tremendously about that time and um, downloaded my information what I had with Mussers and about that time, Cougan called me back and said there’s some structures being threatened right there at the junction, just across – not very far from ICP which was at Peeples Valley. Um, where was it, it was Sickles Road and something over there.
                  ————————————————-

                  So Marquez just did his ‘data dump’ to (Planning) OPS2 Paul Musser… and (apparently) received no big reaction and no further instructions from Musser about what he should be doing next.

                  Cougan Caruthers ( who had earlier been assigned to help DIVSZ Marquez that day ) then informed Marquez about things heating up over near Sickles road ( on the NORTH end of the fire )… and Marquez then left the ICP, did NOT return to the south part of the fire to supervise ‘Division Z’… and he did get involved in that Sickles Road point protection stuff.

                  Reply

            • You’re right, Robert the Second, thanks!!

              I’ve been at kind of a handicap, because I don’t have my four drives worth of “Image Library” moved and set up yet. But I just discovered my Lightroom Catalogue Previews work just fine. I have EVERYTHING from Yarnell hierarchically keyworded up the wazoo so I can compare photos every which way but Sunday, so to speak..

              So I CAN go back and look at everything, after all.

              Dan Philbin had a blue helmet (something that was whispering in my ear, (DOH BLM!) but I just now checked.

              And I think you’re right, WTKTT, about the guy in the black helmet maybe being Rance Marquez. I had the hardest time figuring out which one was Rance and which one was Cougan Carrothers in all the Tom Story Photos.

              Because most of the day they were wearing black baseball hats.

              But now I know that in that Story collection, Cougan still had his baseball hat on and Rance had switched to a black helmet.

              Another related photo to look at is Swartz’s 20130630_1844_AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_5_G_RS.JPG (sheesh the file names!!), which was taken at 6:44 PM. I think Rance is standing just behind Brian Frisby in that one. It also has Cory Ball, and the guy that I still think is Black, but Bob Powers could be right and he could be Native American or Latino. But I still think he’s Black. I think that other guy in the yellow helmet with the chest harness may be in this one, also. Along with Todd Abel’s truck.

              And also look at 20130630_1843__AZ-A15-000688__YARNELL_FB_1_G_RS.JPG, taken at 6:43 PM. That one might actually have that white-helmeted guy i mistook for Dan Philbin. It also has Brian Frisby, the two yellow-helmeted guys, Ed K, and a guy in a red helmet. Along with Gary Cordes’ truck.

              OK, my class is back on again.

              Reply

        • Your theory made sense to me except for the Blue Ridge hotshot looking blue, but I do know color on some photos some of the time is tricky. I am just glad Method got us on track.

          And I agree 100 per cent, sometimes you never know what which question will be the right one, especially with this topic.

          Reply

      • PS Chris MacKenzie (RIP- my absolute favorite of the bunch, and the one that drew me into this) was Asian-American.

        Reply

  39. Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be
    >> the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
    >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio
    >> call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

    There is actually a chance that whoever was making that call out to Granite Mountain at 4:13 PM might have also supplied their CALL sign.

    Standard ‘callout’ radio protocol is ( of course )…

    Callsign of who you want to talk TO, Your own callsign, The message, ( Optional: The channel )

    The actual Panebaker audio recording has a ‘word’ following the ‘Granite Mountain’ part which MAY be that caller’s ‘call sign’.

    Actual audio capture is…

    “Granite Montun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

    There is actually a WORD there between ‘Granite Montun’ and the ‘Wuz yo status rat now?’ query.

    The ?? part *might* have been the caller supplying attempting to supply their own callsign.

    Problem is… whatever that ‘word’ is there after ‘Granite Mountain’ has never been fully identified.

    Mr. Bob Powers and I discussed this at length some time ago.

    The word SOUNDS like it begins with an ‘F’ and SOUNDS like it might be the word ‘Fire’ or ‘Five’.

    Best we could figure is that perhaps this person did NOT supply their own callsign and this word was just part of the ‘TO’ prefix… and somehow this person was told the name of the outfit was ‘Granite Mountain Five’ instead of ‘Grante Mountain Seven’.

    That’s a stretch… but until there’s a better idea about what that one word might be… ( or until the person who was obviously making this radio callout admits it )… it’s a good guess.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

    There are African Americans in Arizona?

    All kidding aside…

    On July 12, 2013… just 12 days after the tragedy… the entire Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew appeared in public at the “Prescott Valley Mod Bogs” rally. They had volunteered to be the ones who would push vehicles out of the mud bog if/when they got stuck.

    They POSED for a ‘group photo’ at +0:09 seconds into the following PUBLIC video…

    Youtube Video Title: “Prescott Valley Mud Bogs 7 12 13”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aVLl-oq-hoo

    There are no African Americans in the crew photo.

    Caveat: There are only 19 Blue Ridge Hot Shots in the portrait, so I guess the one that was missing *could* have been African American.

    Brian Frisby is the one kneeling on the far left, first row, wearing sunglasses.

    Reply

  40. Of course you are right and I usually put Steed in parenthesis after Marsh’s name, but I always hate doing it because;

    1. Steed was a Marine, and he did what Marines do, make their objections to their commanding officer known and then say, “Fuck it…let’s go for it!”

    2. Steed was highly confident in his physical conditioning and that of his crew, so he THOUGHT they could make it.

    3. Steed had a family to support and a really good career ahead of him with the PFD and he knew what Marsh had done to the last assistant crew boss who had crossed him for a really stupid and chicken shit reason. Really stupid and chicken shit reason especially since I took my family to Disneyland in part of my hotel points after I retired since it was official policy that we could use them since the government couldn’t.

    4. And I don’t think Marsh would have accepted the excuse that “we didn’t have time to make it”, since I think he was hell bent on playing a pivotal role in either saving Yarnell or being in the middle of it to look great for the news media and the needle dick bug fuckers on the Prescott City Council. I know Bob has said he should have agreed and then drug is feet, but Marsh wanted them to beat that flaming front to town in the worst way.

    But I know you are right…and it hurts.

    Reply

    • No… but that is definitely a ‘Blue Ridge Hothshot’ there on the right edge of the photo… and it is assumed to be Cory Ball.

      His Nomex shirt is perfectly clean. Cory Ball was with the dozer ( and its operator Paul Morin ) all day being HEQB/DOZB, and Ball never did any ‘line work’ that day.

      Reply

      • I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?

        And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

        Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

        Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

        Reply

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 7, 2015 at 7:07 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> I would like to know who the blue guy in this photo is and if he
          >> could be the guy who asked on the radio “Wuz yo status rat now …” ?
          >>
          >> And if he is, we need to find him and ask him “Did you make a
          >> radio call to GM about 4:15 pm that day?

          He’s definitely a Blue Ridge Hotshot.
          No mistaking the logo on the ‘Blue’ Helmet.

          Location of the photo is, fact, still the edge of the parking lot there at the Ranch House Restaurant… looking SOUTH down HIghway 89. The TIME of the photo is also well after the deployment because of the ‘spot’ fires seen there in the background. The fire didn’t engulf that area seen in the background until well after the deployment.

          It’s almost certain it was late enough that this photo was also taken AFTER the majority of the Blue Ridge Hotshots had already left the Ranch House Restaurant. So that narrows it down as to WHICH Blue Ridge Hotshot this could be still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR.

          Frisby and Brown are still out at the deployment site… in this timeframe. They didn’t make it back to town until it was actually DARK.

          So that leaves Cory Ball and maybe just one other Blue Ridge Hotshot still ‘hanging around’ there at the RHR in this timeframe.

          As far as whether ANY of those ‘unknown persons’ there with radios ( especially the guy facing the camera with the white helmet and the wiry guy with the other white helmet and other front-chest harness ) could have been the ones heard on the radio talking to Granite Mountain during that time when no one was on the radio talking to Granite Mountain…

          …the answer is a definite ‘possible’.

          The following sort of flew by earlier but it was part of the discussion that ensued when Joy Collura found that photo of what MUST be Cory Ball standing at the intersection of Fountainhead and Lakewood in the 4:05 to 4:10 PM timeframe.

          I pointed out ( again ) that from the time OPS2 Paul Musser left his little ‘get together’ with Gary Cordes on the side of Highway 89 right after Musser first arrived on the outskirts of Yarnell… until the time we actually SEE and HEAR him saying “Everything’s going to shit” to off-the-radar PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos…

          …we have absolutely no fucking idea exactly where OPS2 Paul was, what he was doing, or who he was talking to.

          That’s more than a half-hour at THE most critical time of the afternoon.

          Musser told ADOSH he just headed down the RHR after that ‘meeting’ with Cordes on Highway 89… but the ADOSH investigators then didn’t even ask him the next simple question… “Okay… and exactly what were you doing when you got THERE?”

          Musser admitted to making that 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh… but then basically said he was sure he never talked directly to Marsh after that.

          So here was the ‘theory’ that flew by.that might explain a few things…

          Musser DID get down to the RHR and he WAS there for a period of time while the shit was still just beginning to hit the fan in Yarnell. He WAS the ‘second active Field OPS’ on the fire at that time.

          Musser didn’t go into the RHR bathroom and read a ‘Field and Stream’ magazine for that ‘half-hour’ before he showed up on Shrine Road.

          He was doing SOMETHING ( as OPS2 ).

          What he MIGHT have been doing is what OPS people do.
          He was telling the people AROUND him to ‘do things’.

          And that means it could have been anyone.

          When ASM2 ( Bravo 33, John Burfiend ) seemed ask over the A2G channel for someone ‘down there’ to verify where DIVSA Marsh was and if (quote) “Alpha is with GM right now” circa 4:13 PM… Musser could have turned to just about anyone in that parking lot and said…

          “Hey you… what’s your name? Never mind… I don’t even care what your name is. You just heard what ASM2 asked us to do. Get on the radio and raise Granite Mountain and find out if DIVSA Marsh is actually WITH them right now”.

          Next radio transmission we then hear ( at 4:13 PM ) is…

          “Granite Mountun, ??, Wuz yo status rat now?”

          That led, 30 seconds later, to someone asking Eric Marsh directly the exact thing that ASM2 had asked them to do just moment before this whole radio exchange…

          “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”

          Ditto for 4:27 PM.

          Musser could have been the one driving Cory Ball to the YFD as he was on his way back north to the Shrine area and he was just dropping Ball off there so he could borrow that ATV for the now-in-motion ’emregency dozer line’ scouting.assignment.

          But Musser could have then done his OPS2 thing and said to Ball ( at exactly 4:27 PM )…

          “I’m going inside… YOU get on the horn… find out where Marsh and Granite Mountain are and what the fuck is taking them so long to get here.”

          And that’s exactly what SOMEONE did… at exactly 4:27 PM.

          My point here is that by ‘delegating’ these radio transmissions to anybody who was near him in this timeframe… that enabled Paul Musser to sleep at night when he told ADOSH “The last time I talked to Marsh directly was earlier on at 3:42 PM”.

          Because that might be the actual truth.

          Musser might have been ‘delegating’ all those other ‘communications’ to Marsh to any number of ‘other people’ the whole time he was down there in Yarnell playing OPS2.

          So he really wasn’t (technically) lying to ADOSH in his interview about not having talked to Marsh directly at anything after his original 3:42 PM ‘availibility’ check.

          That’s the theory ( one of them ), anyway.

          But it WOULD also explain why it is that we seem to hear so many DIFFERENT voices communicating with Eric Marsh during this time that ( cough, cough ) no one was communicating with Eric Marsh.

          Marti said he is African American, and well…I do get paid to ask the hard questions.

          Who knows his name and who he works for? If it is the USFS, he may be under a gag order but I would still like to know?

          Reply

          • By the way… I was going to make sure and post down below regarding Marti’s “Okay… I’ll put it out there” post… but here is as good a place as any.

            I AGREE with Marti’s post below.

            IF some ‘plan’ was hatched to try to do ANYTHING to save ANY part of Glen Ilah… then that ‘plan’ was probably talked about right then and there on the side of Highway 89 when OPS2 Paul Musser came riding down Highway 89 on his white horse and met up with Gary Cordes, just north of where the Shrine road intersect with Highway 89.

            Based on the evidence that has been uncovered… that conversation COULD ( WARNING: Imagineering ahead. Drive slow. ) have gone something like this.

            ——————————————————————
            Musser: Hiya, Gary.
            Cordes: Hey.
            Musser: Another beautiful day in Arizona, eh?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Whadda ya got down here.
            Cordes: A fucking mess.
            Musser: I can see that… but what resources we got?
            Cordes: Not much. Coupla engines. I got a Task Force out there at the end of Shrine Road helping Blue Ridge connect the dots on some bullshit firebreak I thought we could burn off tonight… but obviously that’s all gone to shit.
            Musser: Yea. I talked with DIVSA Marsh on my way down here in the truck and he said he’s still committed to whatever he and Granite were doing up there somewhere on that ridge.
            Cordes: Well… you can call him back and tell him that’s a total waste of time now. He should have known that earlier. Any work up there at this point is like polishin’ the rails on the Titanic.
            Musser: What can we do about this Glen Ilah deal?
            Cordes: Well… I’ve still got a dozer out there. His loboy is staged right about where we’d need to punch out something if there’s any chance of stopping it from getting into Glen Ilah. Problem is… the asshole showed up without even a red-card or a radio so I had to stick Cory Ball onto that thing this morning as HEQB/DOZB. I think Ball is humpin’ one of the BR trucks out of there right now and over to the RHR… but if we’re gonna retask that dozer for Glen Ilah then we need Ball to get back out to it after he humps that BR truck to the RHR.
            Musser: Okay…. here’s what I think we should do. Do you have Marsh’s cellphone number?
            Cordes: Yep.
            Musser: Okay. You ring him up and tell him what you just told me. He’s wastin’ his time up there. You also get ahold of this Ball guy and tell him we’re not done with the dozer yet and we still need him workin’ with it. Tell him he’s gonna need to SCOUT some dozer line there near Glen Ilah. I’m gonna run down to this Ranch House Restaurant and see who we’ve got down there. YFD Chief Koile was our medical officer up there at that school and he told me just before I jumped into this mess that he’s got an ATV and other shit sitting there doin’ nuthin’ at the YFD Station. He said I could use any of that stuff if it needed to come into play down here. So I’ll wait there for this Ball guy and hump him over to YFD and get him that ATV so he can scout this dozer line ASAP.
            When you talk to Mash… tell him the plan and ask him if he can hump Granite Mountain down there to Glen Ilah. It ain’t gonna do us much good if we push line with the dozer and we got no shots to prep it.
            I think that’s about all we can try and do for this God-forsaken place at this point.
            Cordes: Sounds like a plan.
            ——————————————————————

            And then Musser left Cordes, went down Highway 89 to the Ranch House Restaurant, and proceeded to do exactly that.

            He waited there for Ball. Got him over to the YFD to get the ATV. Authorized HIM to now talk directly to Marsh and try to get him to hurry… and then Musser got wind of the chaos over on Shrine Road and drove over there to see what was going on.

            That’s when he finally ’emerges’ on the evidence record again and we see him greeting Prescott National Forest off-the-radar hire KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell with…

            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: Hiya Paul?
            OPSe Paul Musser: “Everthin’s going to shit”.
            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell: ( laughing ) Yep. Everythin’s goin to shit!”

            And it most certainly was.

            Reply

            • Followup…

              And here is all that both SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser ACTUALLY had to say about this ‘meeting on the side of Highway 89’ when they were interviewed ( separately ) by ADOSH.

              They BOTH reference this ‘meeting’… but BOTH said very little about it and no ADOSH investigator pressed either one of them for any details.

              ** CORDES

              From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on September 11, 2013…
              ———————————————————————-
              A: Right, and Of – Musser showed up and, and met with me where I was parked on the road, asked me what I thought and I basically said this thing’s gonna move, it’s moving pretty aggressively towards town. Um, during…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …that time, within that time frame, as you drop to the next line, the trigger point for crew rem- uh, removing the crew was met so I, I got on the, uh, told the guys to start picking up and, and getting ready to get out of the area.
              —————————————————————–

              So Cordes tells ADOSH he and Musser most certainly did ‘talk about the situation’ as soon as Musser pulled up to him… and Cordes says he started talking to Musser about how aggressively it was about to move towards town…

              …and then Cordes says “Um… “… and quickly changes the subject.

              He never actually tells ADOSH what the full conversation with Musser was ABOUT… or whether even any kind of ‘plan’ emerged from that meeting by the side of the road.

              And astonishingly… no ADOSH or WFA investigator ever said…

              “Back up the bus a minute, Gary. You said you and Musser talked about the situation as soon as he pulled up. What did the two of you decide you were gonna DO about it? Anything? Did any kind of ‘plan’ at all emerge from that conversation?”

              ** MUSSER

              And now here is what OPS2 Paul Musser said to ADOSH about this same moment when he first met Cordes on the side of the road…

              From OPS2 Paul Musser’s one-and-only ADOSH
              interview on August 16, 2013
              ————————————————–
              A: Uh, got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio. Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge? They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.

              Q2: You’re talking about Blue Ridge?

              A: Yes, Blue Ridge.

              Q2: Okay.

              A: And that Granite was still committed in the black…

              Q2: Okay.

              A: …up on top. Um, Gary, uh, and I talked over what the trigger points were. He pointed them out to me. Uh, and he says and they’re – they’re – I don’t know what his words exact- but anyhow they’re rapidly getting burnt over. Um, the fire now had turned and it was headed almost due south. Uh, Gary goes it’s reached my first trigger and that was for the evacuation of Yarnell, which was actually already in progress.

              Q2: Right.

              A: Uh, started getting out – and he said – and I don’t remember the exact conversation, something about and it’s gonna reach the other trigger point. I’m gonna pull them out. And I go yeah, get them out. Or I don’t know what I said. Uh, but something to that fact, that – to pull – start pulling people out. Tony Sciacca, a safety officer showed up someplace at that time.

              Q2: Uh-huh.

              A: Him and I talked briefly about the situation, what was going on and he said I’m going to Yarnell to make sure everybody gets out. Talked with Gary a little bit longer. And then I moved to Yarnell.
              ————————————————————-

              So just like Cordes… other than the ‘trigger point’ conversations… Musser also says there was ‘more to the conversation’ and he ‘Talked with Gary a little bit longer’… but no details.

              And again… no ADOSH or WFA investigator stopped him and asked…

              “Uh… talked a little longer… about WHAT?”

              Reply

        • WTKTT, It is going to take me awhile to sort out all of the info you provided, but just to be clear, the guy I was talking about is the guy in the yellow hard hat with his back to the camera. A long time ago I asked why he was a blue smurf color, and Marti replied that is because he is black.

          This is a long shot, but that is all we have at this point. Now comes one of my most famous quotes, “Based on my experience;” there were 3 very rare things that I encountered while fighting wildfire anywhere west of the Mississippi River and those 3 things are;

          1. African American wildland firefighters.
          2. Cajun wildland firefighters.
          3, Wildland firefighters that said things like, “Wuz yo status rat now …”

          So…I just wondered, is it possible there MIGHT be a connection?

          The Blue Ridge guy is a little blue as well but…

          Reply

          • If I was to guess, I’d say the reason they both look a little “blue” is due to the reflecting blue emergency lights that are all around them.

            Reply

            • That makes more sense and would explain why the Blue Ridge hotshot is so blue as well, thanks for weighing in.

              Reply

  42. Thanks to Eric Marsh, hotshots went from toiling in obscurity next to their elite brothers “The Smokejumpers”, to being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. Oh…and then there is the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.

    Hot chick in bar talking to a hotshot;

    “What do you do?”

    “I’m an elite wildland firefighter!”

    “Oh…you must be a smokejumper”

    Epic pick up fail! But then again, they do have “Young Men and Fire”, “Red Skies Over Montana”, their own periodical and the same show business agents who are now representing our hapless hero. So….

    Reply

    • Oh, and one more thing.

      Memo to the U.S. Forest Service;

      Have you seen the quotes on the TV news recently from the NTSB who are investigating why the “El Faro” went down?

      “Our goal is to make sure this never happens again!”

      And not, “Our goal is to cloud this tragedy in fog so as not to embarrass the Maritime community, speak ill of the now presumably dead Captain, or cause his family any additional pain.”

      “Please stand by for tax payer funded official obfuscation!”

      Reply

      • Gary,

        I think you’re spot on regarding the GMHS “being infamous for making the single biggest and worst tactical mistake in the history of wildland firefighters. … and … the fact that he killed almost his entire crew except our hapless hero who was saved by Frisby.” And I include Steed as being almost as much responsible as Marsh for all this, in that he held their Crew’s life in his hands. All Steed had to do was tell Marsh “Copy, we’ll be on our way” and then turn to the guys and tell them “We’re not going anywhere until this thing pulses, then we’ll head down.”

        Since you brought up smoke-jumpers, I think this YouTube video clip is appropriate.
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64

        I’m just getting back from several months of wildland fire assignments in the Pacific Northwest, and it looks like I have lots of catching up to do, even though I checked in from time to time.

        I do want to add that, from someone ‘in the know’ on the Twisp Canyon Fire: ‘The WFF’s on the left flank applied and followed LCES, the Fire Orders, as well as observed, recognized, and mitigated the Watch Out Situations, and they were just fine. However, those WFF’s on the right flank, where all the burns and fatalities occurred did NOT apply or follow LCES, did NOT follow the Fire Orders, and did NOT observe, recognize, and mitigate the Watch Out Situations.’ It’s also possible that the Right Flank WFF’s did, in fact, OBSERVE the Watch Outs occurring but did not recognize them for what they were – INDICATORS – and therefore, failed to mitigate them and just disengage and leave!

        Reply

        • And also add that the SAIT is responsible for the BIGGEST COVER-UP IN WFF HISTORY with their SAIR, particularly with the gall to claim that it was actually a “FACTUAL and Management Report.”

          And to further claim: “…, although it is easy to see in hindsight those things that turned out to be important, it is important not to engage in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW. It is better to ask, ”Why might it have made sense to focus on or not to focus on those things at the time?” because others may find themselves in the same situation in the future.”

          THEY are the ones dealing in the COUNTERFACTUAL BY ASSUMING A REALITY THAT DID NOT EXIST FOR THE CREW.

          Reply

  43. Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
    You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your crew in danger.

    So lets back up a minuet. It would have taken the crew 75 minuets to tie in with the cat in Glen Isla. Another 1 and a half to 2 hours to put in a line and start a burn out in the highest burn period of the day. At 4 the crew left the top that means by 7 they would be able to fire the line out. By 1700 or 5 the fire was to Helms ranch. How were they going to protect helms ranch in a burn out?

    The fire was already running south by the time the Cat Boss went to scout and the Engine was ask to go to the ranch. No one was paying any attention to the fire weather. .OPS and The IC were pulling out all Fire Fighters on the line.
    I believe the only plan was between Marsh and Cordes.

    They had not finished the Cat line they had worked on all day and could not burn it out due to the winds.

    OPS had no Idea of any plan and yes you expect HS Crews to do the right thing which also includes not putting the crew in harms way. The 2 OPS and IC thought GM was in the Black old burn area.

    If any one is holding info it would be Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough. After the Weather Forecast any indirect line would have been fool hardy to say the lest with the wind predictions.

    It is like the Calif. Fires once the Fire starts running with the wind you are not going to stop it with Indirect Line. This kind of fire with the Flam heights would jump 4 lane Highways.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 6, 2015 at 1:42 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Back to the Top on the Hail Mary—–
      >> You guys totally lost me below. The Plan was way to late and ill-advised
      >> if there was one. Your not a Hero or Heroic if you disregard all the safety
      >> of your crew and take a short cut to get some where putting your
      >> crew in danger.

      Thanks for inserting the ‘reality check’. I was trying to find the place below to insert the following comment of my own ( to clarify even what I said ).

      When I ( personally ) used the phrase “it would have made it all seem even more heroic if they had just admitted such a plan was in place… *IF* it really was”…

      …what I MEANT was it would have served THEIR ( Arizona Forestry ) purposes to do that.

      I ( me, personally ) still don’t think their was anything ‘heroic’ going on at all.

      If the plan even existed… it was hair-brained.

      As you just said. Too little… too late.

      There was NO REASON for those men to lose their lives that day.

      Zero. Zip. Nada.

      “Hail Mary” plan or not… the choices made represent almost the textbook definition of “depraved indifference”.

      That’s not heroism.

      I believe all the discussion below was “allowing” was that IAOI ( If And Only If ) there was this hair-brained “Hail Mary” plan in place and it had ANYTHING to do with why Marsh was trying to pull those men down to Glen Ilah “most ricky tick”…

      …then it’s still a mystery why they ( Arizona Forestry ) wouldn’t have just admitted it.

      The PRESS and the PUBLIC would have eaten that shit with a spoon and then in true Dickensian style would have held up their bowls and just said “Please, sir… can I have some more?”

      Reply

      • I would agree that there was gross error and what Bob Powers described in California wild fires jumping four lane highways once the wind takes charge was exactly what we were seeing that day. There was no stopping that fire by 11am and you can imagine what they were seeing by four pm —what caused them to think they could out run a wind change has to have an explanation. But risking the lives of 17 young and mostly inexperienced young firemen has to be most unheroic. Those young men showed their inexperience by believing their leaders were doing the right thing by the gross error of dropping them into a death trap. I say this from experience where I refused to go back into a mine drift that was showing signs of movement yet six other miners believed it was safe because they believed the shifter boss. Their lives could have been lost and as it was they went through much travail finding an air shaft to get out. Experience is the greatest teacher and if you have a boss then hope he has plenty and is not willing to give you undue risk that will kill you

        The point is leave off the BS of making this a heroic deed and leave off the statues and restricting what would have been or is a crime scene and big taxpayer cost. Say what it really was – a sign saying one of the worse fire fighting debacles in history

        Reply

      • I completely agree.

        I don’t think anything in this was actually heroic.

        But the narration could have been made to look, at least, a bit more that way. Much more so than the narration they chose which included or supported either…..

        1. it is a complete mystery, given the total lack of communication, why they incomprehensibly went down into that bowl full of explosive fuels that everybody and their brother has said they would have NEVER (stupidly) gone down into, all things considered.

        2. Or, as Darrell Willis said, “God had another plan that day,” which, I believe then morphed into the families’ narrative that they were somehow divinely swept up into heaven in order to look down and protect their families from that moment forward into eternity

        3. Or, as EN and, apparently, Holly Neill also, seem to be saying, that that awesome inscrutable fire just unpredictably did something that NO ONE could have anticipated and just swallowed them up into it’s evil maw.

        None of those narratives has ever been truly credible. But they’re alive and well.

        Compared to them, in my mind, even though what actually happened wasn’t actually really heroic, given that most everybody thinks that just by showing up and pushing into the worst parts of a wildland fire (while everybody else is running away) Hotshots are some kind of heroic just by trying to do their jobs, Which to a certain extent, relatively speaking, is the case.

        if the SAIT had just said that they decided to participate in a plan to save Glen Ilah, and said what that plan was, and said how they just didn’t make it as the fire burned faster than they anticipated and turned around and caught them by surprise……

        It would have been MUCH better than what all those other totally non-credible bogus narratives have, over the past two years, engendered.

        Joy’s right. Also Randi Rhodes preaches this. The truth may be difficult, and may make you miserable, but it’s a WHOLE LOT EASIER to remember. You don’t have to keep re-deciding how to narrate it, and fix it, and keep it coherent and believable, and whatever.

        Reply

    • I for one, was not suggesting it was a GOOD plan or a workable plan or something they should be thinking about, nor do I think it would have made any heroes for trying it since one of my favorite things here is when you call structures “part of the fuel bed.”

      In my continual interest in trying to determine “why the GMIHC left the black” I am simply putting it out there for discussion, could this have been Eric’s plan that someone or more than one someone bought into to give it a shot?

      Nor do I ever think it is a good idea for wildland firefighters to engage in structure protection except for engine crews under limited and specific conditions. And that has been my strong position from day one, it would NOT have made heroes, it would have made them…stupid. But that doesn’t mean “they” would not have tried to spin it that way.

      And it very may well be that Cordes, the BR Cat boss and maybe McDonough were the only ones who knew about the Hail Mary Plan IF it existed at all (other than the other GMIHC- Marsh and Steed) but I am sure others found out about it later, IF it existed and then they became part of the cover up as well.

      Reply

      • IAOI this plan actually existed… and IF ( but only ONLY if ) Marsh was the ‘author’ of it… I keep wondering exactly WHEN it was ‘discussed’ between Marsh and who I will simply call “other people on the other side of the fire”.

        The fact that the actual INITIATION of the whole thing ( As in… “You guys scout some dozer line down there and I’ll get the ex-Marine to get those fellas down there” ) had to have been a ‘coordinated’ plan…

        …WHEN ( and how? ) did even that ‘coordination’ take place… and why didn’t more people hear it.

        I think the answer there has to be that the ‘initiation’ of this ‘plan’ ( if it ever was initiated ) took place via cellphone.

        The investigators should have obtained EVERYONE’S cellphone records.

        No question.

        In this day and age… that’s like “Investigations 101”.

        Reply

        • Don’t get me wrong – I never said it was a good plan, in fact I agree with Bob on too little too late. However, I can find no other reason for a shot crew to leave the safety of the black. Especially if the plan was created by their own Sup who was working as Division A. Again, no plan justifies violating safety practices and putting your personnel in harms way, but I see no other viable reason for them leaving the black. And yes, the odds were stacked against them with being able to pull something like this off, timing, wind, weather, etc. as Bob also points out. But I can guarantee as an OSC that I would not rely on a single dozer line alone (if it were put in place) to hold the angry fire that was coming off the hill.. In my mind that is the reason I believe “someone” thought of firing the dozer line if it could be put in place, again not textbook but the only other option (and probably the best option) was to sit back and take pictures of the big dog eating.

          Reply

          • It is still possible that their was a plan I am not saying there was not one.
            that Marsh was part of it based on statements from Cordes and his directing of the Cat and Engine crew. It may very well be why Marsh pushed the crew to move to the Ranch. There is just a few threads that are not quite tied to gather to put this into play as a Idea/plan.
            It was like a panic to save Glen Isla with not much info. Before the crew moved you would have thought there would have been some kind of scout on feasibility. What would or could they do.

            20/20 hind site says they should have looked at a plan of indirect line and implemented it that morning with more than 1 cat and never put a crew on the mountain.

            Reply

            • My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
              That has never made any sense.

              Reply

        • OK. I’ll stick it out there.

          I think, given the timeline, that this “plan” was part of Gary Cordes’ conversation with Paul Musser on 89. Too much leads back into that.

          Including Paul Musser then heading into Yarnell to do whatever, including, I think, beginning to secure that ATV, without which, I don’t think Cory Ball would have said to Moran, around about 4PM, something along the lines of, “You wait here, I’m gonna come back soon.”

          I don’t think Cory would have said that if he wasn’t really really SURE that was going to be the case, and I don’t think him just thinking Blue Ridge was “getting ready to head” to the Ranch House Restaurant would have given him that confidence. He didn’t KNOW he would have guaranteed access to their UTV.

          That call to Cory to join into this had to have happened, given all the tight timing, before or around when he took that photo of the staging area (and, since I still don’t have my hard drives and can’t look at the photo, I don’t remember exactly when he took that photo, but I think it was around 3:50-4:00).

          And I agree with what WTKTT has written about Eric calling Frisby to come up to his vantage point and SEE what was happening, and I think Eric was SEEING the possibility of putting that line in when he called Frisby to come up.

          That was just a little bit BEFORE Musser, according to Musser (but we have no actual evidence of that), got the availability check regarding Granite Mountain being “committed to the ridge.”

          The only time Cordes and Musser could have started discussing and beginning to implement this had to have been when they were face-to-face meeting on 89.

          And I think that they couldn’t have done this without some kind of communication with Eric. They had no way of knowing, at that time, what the fire looked like in relationship to Glen Ilah without Eric’s input. I don’t think they would have, just between themselves, been able to conjure up this plan.

          So I think/agree that there had to have been some communication going on between them and Eric. We have no radio evidence of this. It could just be missing from the videos we have. Or it could have been taking place over a cellphone. But I do believe it had to have been taking place.

          The fact that there was never any investigation of the cellphone records is totally galling to me, all things considered. There was a whole ton of cellphone conversations going on on this fire, in my humble opinion.

          So those are my thoughts.

          I have a new credit card, BTW, and the current official explanation of what happened regarding my credit card makes absolutely no sense to me. Ongoing saga, but at least I now have access to my MONEY.

          Namaste.

          Reply

          • “Bob Powers says OCTOBER 6, 2015 AT 4:23 PM

            My Other question I have asked before why was Marsh and Steed calling it an escape route rather than just moving to reengage, Coming off the mountain to the Ranch road. Why Escape route if that is what they were doing?????
            That has never made any sense.”

            I think, to be honest, the “cover-up” started as “the plan” was unfolding. And I think the “cover-up” included calling this an “Escape Route.” Which, to us, it obviously wasn’t.

            It’s the only thing I can think of.

            The only person, out there on the fire, who would have “officially” known what that “short-hand” actually “officially” meant would have been Gary Cordes. He was the one who, that morning, told, first Eric Marsh, and then, the Granite Mountain Hotshots, “This is your bomb-proof safety zone.”

            As a photographer, one of the tenets I sometimes abide by is “shoot first, apologize later.”

            I really do think that some of this was being flown under the radar.

            Reply

            • To be perfectly honest, I really don’t think even Brian Frisby knew what was going on, because Eric, after the face-to-face convo on the ridge got aborted, even, apparently, misled him with his agreement with Brian’s question “you mean the two-track we/you came in on?”

              I actually really do think Brian Frisby thought Granite Mountain came down on the two-track leading down further into the black.

              But I could be wrong about that. WTKTT has written otherwise.

              A whole lot of this is still a jumbled mess. Which is why we are still here, over two years later, trying to figure it out.

              Reply

              • And to that I would add.

                I don’t actually think Todd Abel was, all that much, in on this.

                I think he was so busy doing something else that was critical and complicated on the north side of the fire, especially after Paul Musser made himself the other Field Ops (and I think Todd was relieved by that, all things considered), that, after he told Marsh to “hunker down and be safe,” he basically let go of tracking what was going on on the southwest part of the fire.

                I’m saying this, all the while knowing that WTKTT has said elsewhere that he thinks the voice in the 4:27 Gamble video urging them to get down more quickly is that of Todd Abel.

                And that could mean I could be wrong on what I am saying.

                I just don’t think, currently, that Todd Abel was “engaged” in what was happening here. I think, all things considered, including what was happening on his end of the fire, he was quite comfortable letting Paul Musser manage/micro-manage what was happening on the opposite side of the fire.

                Span of Control.

                Reply

  44. WTKTT said,

    “>> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like
    >> the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

    Yes… but as one of the persons who pays their fucking salaries… I’m not giving them a ‘free pass’. Sorry.”

    And I asked,

    “A free pass for obfuscating the truth? Or a free pass if they bought into the plan? Or both?”

    Reply

      • I certainly agree with you that no one should get a free pass for obfuscating the truth, I think they should face disciplinary action up to and including termination and possibly criminal prosecution. All of my training has focused on the fact that you don’t have to talk (unless given a Garrity waiver) but if you do talk, you had better tell the truth.

        And that goes for me, or any other law enforcement person who becomes the target of an internal or criminal investigation, the rules are no different. In fact, during my time (18 years with the BLM) I was the target of four separate internal investigations in addition to a few administrative reviews and I always focused on one thing…tell the truth.

        And by the way…I never spent even one day “on the beach” so…don’t read anything into that. They say if you have never been the target of an internal investigation…you aren’t trying hard enough. Or at least that is what I always said, but I think I made it up.

        As far as buying into the plan under the circumstances, that is just my opinion knowing how chaotic things can be and there has to be a trust level in order for the system to ever work. If a Division Supervisor and a hotshot crew boss tell you they can move their crew to town to provide the ground forces for a backfire, I think it would be overreach for anyone in Ops to reply, no you can’t do that because there is always the presumption that anyone in that position would not be suggesting such a plan, or buying into such a plan, whichever way it went IF it went at all, if they couldn’t do it safely and in accordance with the rules.

        But the latter is a judgment call, and your call if different than mine. Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed, and that they knew more or should have known more as to why it was a bad idea, than my opinion would change on whether or not they should get a free pass on that as well.

        Reply

        • Total agreement on what seems to have happened AFTER the tragedy.
          Everyone decided that the “ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game was the way to go… especially with ADOSH.

          As for what might have gone down DURING the fire… Yes… when some ‘Hotshot’ is being a ‘Hotshot’… you are SUPPOSED to believe he/she can do what he/she is telling you he/she can do.

          Just like you are supposed to believe a ‘Type 2 IA’ crew can actually achieve a hike out to a fire ( but that’s a Saturday story, not a Sunday story ).

          That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind… is simply unacceptable.

          That’s where I withdraw my ‘free pass’ for ‘Trusting the Hotshit Hotshot guy” ( no typos there ).

          There are LOT of things that management could have done to make SURE this ‘risky’ plan wasn’t going to kill anyone. Air Attack could have been SPECIFICALLY told to be their “eyes on the fire”. Management could have asked for COMPLETE assurances from Mr. “Hotshit Hotshot” that LCES was in place… including exact location of the ‘Lookout’ that was to be either guiding them in to a landing… or calling for an abort.

          That might even be one of the most important “Takeaway Lessons” from this whole event.

          Never again should someone COMPLETELY trust some “Hotshit Hotshot” to be able to do what he/she is promising… WITHOUT proper supervision.

          From now on… TRUST… but VERIFY.

          Reply

          • WTKTT said,

            “That being said… for no one who was “buying into” the plan to at least lift a finger to make SURE this “Hotshot” guy wasn’t completely out of his fucking mind”

            That is where you and I are having a disconnect. The day someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind, is the day the system will collapse.

            I don’t think you understand just how much respect, deference, and support the wildland firefighting world gives to their hotshot crew bosses. And there are some very good reasons for that, that you just don’t get! Hotshot crew bosses are the FUCKING ROCK STARS in their world. Nobody challenges the rock stars of their world, if they say it or do it, it has to be right, because they are the hotshot crew bosses!

            Here is a clue to see if I can break through your barriers. There have been hotshots fight ten of thousands of very dangerous fires under some of the most extreme conditions you can imagine in a world run by Chaos since the late 1940’s. And before the Yarnell Hill Fire, there were only 3 fatality fires involving hotshots for a total of 24 deaths in a high risk job where hundreds (millions?) of man hours had been worked. And we know why all of the previous 24 hotshots died and it came down to somebody above them, had to much “can do” spirit.

            This is the house that Bob and I and a lot of others built one brick at a time which is just one of the reasons why I am so pissed off at Eric Marsh. His arrogance and stupidity has led to people like you to thinking you are qualified to make statements like “how someone has to start checking to make SURE a “Hotshot” guy isn’t completely out of his fucking mind” because what he did was so arrogant and stupid…and INEXPLICABLE!

            This was OUR HOUSE and Eric Marsh wasn’t fit to be in it.

            That has never come up before now because as I have said many times and YOU PEOPLE need to understand, the Yarnell Hill Fire was NOT just one more fatality fire involving hotshots. IT WAS OFF ALL OF THE KNOWN FUCKING CHARTS!

            Something very bad and very special (in a really bad way) happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire that has never happened in the recorded history of hotshots. And I don’t give a fuck if Amanda Beno-Marsh or Jesus Fucking Christ Himself doesn’t like me looking into it, I am going to keep on until I find some answers that make sense to me.

            Reply

            • Gary You are Right—- I would add that a lot of other Hot Shot Crews knew that Marsh was way out there and worked with some reserve around him. Take a few comments on here from those that said Marsh made bad decisions and got away with them for a long time.
              I will bet most if not all of the R3 HS Crews knew about his Drug use that caused a crew to be disbanded. You know like I do if a HS Crew is going off the deep end other crews distance them self’s from them.
              Let them sink or swim. The word travels fast.

              One big question that we have not really discussed——
              Why would another Superintendent question Marsh on exactly what he was doing where he was going on his move to a safety zone. Marsh was evasive and said they were moving in the black to another location.
              The real eye opener here is why Frisby would even ask Marsh did he think Marsh was going off the reservation and out of the safe black and do something stupid?
              Superintendents normally have Faith in their fellow Sups.—-

              Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust—-

              Why would Marsh move the Crew when they were in the Black.?
              Where would he be moving them to?
              Was he making another bad decision?

              99% of the time one Sup. dose not question another on what they are doing. They normally trust each other.
              Remember that it was Frisbys Idea to post a lookout.
              Marsh and steed are saying their in the Black and then they are moving. What was going on and why.

              Reply

              • Good point Bob, this has bothered me for awhile as well but I was never able to articulate it. It did seem like Frisby was a supervisor double checking with a subordinate he had learned not to trust.

                “Those questions by Frisby have bothered me for some time I think they were asked fore a reason Trust”

                So yes, I think you are right, Frisby didn’t trust Marsh was doing the right thing.

                Reply

            • Thanks for writing this up, Gary. And thanks for your patience.

              What you are saying is kind of what I was sensing in all of this, but I don’t have your experience and knowledge and authority to “KNOW” it.

              I just had this immediate sense, when I read what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

              Now I know why.

              Reply

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on
                October 7, 2015 at 7:49 am

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> I just had this immediate sense, when I read
                >> what WTKTT wrote, of, “SHEESH, nobody
                >> should have to baby-sit a Hotshot Crew, for
                >> God’s sake!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! DUDE!!!!!!!!”

                I wasn’t talking about ‘baby-sitting’.

                I’m talking about when critical decisions are being made and lives could be at risk ( which was exactly the situation in Yarnell that afternoon )… it’s management’s JOB to make sure they don’t have some fucking Yahoo out on the line who is capable of killing people… and might be in the process of doing just that.

                Reply

        • Gary, you wrote:

          “Now if it is revealed at some point that the plan actually existed”

          I don’t understand how people can say “if it is revealed.”

          Cory Ball was ordered, by Cordes, to connect with Justin/someone by going up into Glen Ilah to scout the possibility of putting in a dozer line.

          Someone who was driving a white truck, who was not actually dealing, personally with the fire that was burning down towards Yarnell, or still burning up near Model Creek Road or Peeples Valley or Sickles Road or the MountainAir Mini Mart or the Shrine Road and the Youth Camp, dropped Cory Ball off at that Yarnell Fire Department to QUICKLY pick up their ATV in order to drive it up into Glen Ilah in order to accomplish that.

          Gary Cordes asked his Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine or two to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to “safely” pick up the Granite Mountain Hotshots there.

          How could all of that not equal a plan? How does that happen without a plan?

          I’m just not getting it, apparently. I’m having a hard time thinking this was all just coincidental or random or some kind of “organic.”

          Reply

  45. Reply to Marti Reed post on October 6, 2015 at 11:15 am

    NOTE: Continuing this conversation from down below in a thread that was running
    out of room. It was/is more discussion about the ‘dozer’… and whether it ever really
    did make it out of the danger area.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Well between the first linked conversation and the second linked conversation,
    >> there was a miles-long set of conversations regarding the various things that
    >> happened, including all the handings off of the dozer from so-and-so to so-and-so
    >> and such and such.
    >>
    >> It was pretty clear that nothing had happened to either the dozer or the operator,
    >> because they were both put back to work without much of a hitch. It’s just that
    >> somebody didn’t know where they were, so they got put on the list, but apparently
    >> that was just a mistake.

    In the end… I hope that turns out to be the simple explanation.

    It’s still very disturbing to consider the alternative… that fire command just let this dozer and its operator ( Paul Morin ) “fall through the cracks” and Mr. Morin came close to being the 20th fatality that day.

    But let’s assume for a moment that the dozer DID ‘make it out of there’… and it really did ‘follow Cory Ball out’ from the south end of the Sesame area.

    That raises a ton of ‘other’ questions.

    Example: If the risky move being made by Granite Mountain had ANYTHING to do with this possible ‘Hail Mary’ plan down there near Glen Ilah… then the moment that dozer was being REMOVED from the area… that would have meant “the plan” was already being aborted.

    So what are we to assume, then, if that’s the case?

    That someone didn’t even TELL DIVSA Marsh or Granite Mountain that even if they had ‘set out’ with the idea of helping with some dozer line near Glen Ilah… that “the plan” was “called off”… and there was no longer any need for them?

    OR… that someone then DID tell DIVSA Eric Marsh that the ’emergency dozer line” plan that he, himself, might have authored circa 3:45 PM just wasn’t coming together because there wasn’t going to be TIME to execute on that plan…

    …but DIVSA Eric Marsh, himself, didn’t “call off” Steed and the men… and he just let them “keep coming” even though he knew the original reason for the move wasn’t even coming together?

    This whole thing remains a true “puzzle”… with “pieces” that have to tightly fit in order for the existing evidence to make sense.

    Each ‘piece of the puzzle’ might answer one lingering question… but ( more often than not )… a lot more ‘new’ questions then come onto the table.

    Bredan’s own recent admission that he had ALWAYS been withholding important information from investigators is just another example.

    I suppose we can believe him that Eric Marsh really DID just ‘take off south’ on his scouting trip the moment Brian Frisby informed him he wasn’t going to make the face-to-face and now needed to save Brendan’s life, instead… and that Eric Marsh really WAS out ahead’ of those men and ‘scouting the route’…

    …but then all the other disturbing questions come onto the table.

    If Eric Marsh really was that far out AHEAD of those men that day… and anywhere EAST of the mouth of the box canyon at any time after 4:15 PM… then why did he let them keep coming forward into that deathtrap?

    Reply

    • Quick reply, and then I have to race to the Credit Union, because we discovered my credit card, which was the replacement for the one I have that expires this month, seems to have gotten stolen in the mail (long story), so we stopped it, and now I have to race to get a new one, cuz I have no other cards thus no access to cash or anything.

      In our miles long discussion, which I spent this morning reading, we decided the most plausible thing, fitting the timeline et al, was that Moran didn’t follow Cory Ball out. Instead he sat there and waited, but then the fire started coming down toward Glen Ilah and he said, to himself, something along the lines of “f*ck this, i’m getting out of here’ and then left,

      And Cory didn’t know about that as Cory started back into Glen Ilah, where he only got to the Lakewood/Manzanita intersection before he had to turn around.

      And nobody saw (or perhaps that’s when Joy’s eye-witness saw him “driving out”) him, at least nobody that was supposed to be keeping track of him, because he took the other road out and then started heading north because he HAD been requested earlier to do exactly that.

      So it’s not like the plan “got cancelled” and then he left. The plan never got cancelled, but Moran just……left because his staging spot was about to get set ablaze.

      And he had no radio, so……………

      Eventually, after the deployment et al, probably somebody like Todd Abel, or even Musser, or that BLM guy who was put in charge of
      Gary’s Structure Protection Group 2, connected back up with him, and they put him to work dealing with the power lines, under the DozerBoss friend of Todd Abel, Dean Steward.

      OK gotta go. Thanks for pulling this up here.

      Reply

      • I will add until Cory went back to scout and found the fire blocking access and Cordes or others Got to the Restaurant Parking area and saw the South side of the fire running South. No one knew what that side of the fire was doing they were all on the North side or getting out of Yarnell East to the Highway.

        Reply

        • I agree with what you wrote.

          Except, possibly, with the exception of Paul Musser.

          He had left Gary Cordes on 89 at around 3:50 and headed into Yarnell. He never said in his interview what he was doing there during that time.

          But I think he picked up Cory at the Ranch House Restaurant and then drove him to the Yarnell Fire Department to get the ATV that Cory then drove up into Glen Ilah, at )(via Cory’s photograph) at 4:27 PM, exactly the same time that Ronnie Gamble was catching, via his video-recording, that convo regarding “it would be great if you could get here sooner.” to which Eric replied (with some exasperation in his voice) “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

          I’m thinking it’s possible Musser didn’t hear that. I’m thinking it’s also possible he did.

          But it’s pretty hard for me to think that Musser didn’t know what that fire was doing then. The view from the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department to the Ridge and everything else in between, is one of the bestest.

          It wasn’t until he dropped Cory off at the Yarnell Fire Department that he skedddled over to the Shrine Road area. He was probably, at that time, the one most situationally aware of what the fire was doing as it was coming down into Glen Ilah etc.

          Reply

  46. Well…I am glad that everyone seems to understand that the reader who I agreed with was not saying definitely that is what happened, only that based on the conditions and circumstances on the ground at the time that decision would have been made, it is MOST logical that it came from Marsh, but many others bought into it and were to play a role in.

    And as far as why they didn’t spin it that way as WTKTT has asked, I don’t know either. But maybe by that time they realized just how foolish and reckless that decision was and they didn’t see the need to damage (in their eyes) the reputation of Type 1A crews and embarrass or make the families angry that their loved had died for such foolish and reckless plan?

    The only thing that really bothers me, is that IF we are right about the entire concept of a Hail Mary Plan even existing, a lot of people would have known about it.

    And normally, you can’t keep a secret if more than one person knows about it. So I really am going to try and find a way to shake the story loose as I have been saying.

    And that way has been suggested to me by another very smart and loyal reader who does not post here because…I don’t know why, but it doesn’t matter.

    And this goes back to what I have been saying for two years now, but I am embarrassed to admit that I did not connect the dots with what I knew had to be done, which is to develop a Source of Information (SOI), with the time tested way of developing an SOI when appealing to their civic duty does not work.

    Offer to pay money for the information. How? And who pays? Where does the money come from? We need to work out a lot of details, but the money could come from Crowd Funding.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding

    It would be best if that were done under the banner of the Investigative Media banner because normally a “group” endorses the idea. But if John does not think that is a good idea or something his thread should not be involved in, I would establish a shadow group under a different name, or if nobody wants to support it, I will try it under the GO Banner of In The Pursuit Of Truth, Justice & The American Way Foundation and Website.

    So…I would like everyone to think about the idea and weigh in if you support the idea, at least in the initial stages of developing it?

    Reply

      • Thank you…but if I understand how the system works, I am not asking any one person to financially support the idea. I think the idea is to have dozens, hundreds, thousands? of people support it.

        I do think however, it would be helpful for a group, or a board, or a committee, or a gaggle of people support the IDEA, so it isn’t just one guy saying, hey, why don’t you just send me some money. Although from some examples I have been give, that works as well.

        And as far as money working? It might…it worked for our hapless hero didn’t it?

        Reply

  47. Marti Reed says

    October 4, 2015 at 8:21 pm

    OK. I’ll bite.

    Why do you think “the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll”?

    I’m not asking to be adversarial. I just truly want to know.

    And say, Oh…I thought everyone hung on my every post and had them all memorized. Without going back and finding my exact quotes. Well on second thought, I don’t remember what I said, so I will go back and look it up.

    Reply

    • Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure must have been a piece of masterful prose. And actually, this is a theme I have been putting forward for two years now, so I don’t think all of the reasons that I have given are even in a single post.

      I believe the only fair comparisons are fatality fires involving hotshot crews. Those are the Loop, the Battlement Creek and the South Canyon (often mistakenly referred to as Storm King).

      The Loop Fire occurred in what was essentially the P I (Pueblo I) of wildland firefighting. As a reference point, the Mann Gulch Fire occurred in the Folsum Complex and the Idaho Fires of 1910 occurred during the Clovis Culture period The Battlement Creek Fire happened during P II and the South Canyon Fire burned as late as P III.

      But the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster happened during the PRESENT TIME PERIOD! And it was far worse than anything else in recorded history, and even in any prehistoric time period.

      Oh, this is going to be a long explanation and I am burned out after my earlier on-line debate with WTKTT and he hasn’t even responded yet. God only knows how hard that is going to be to deal with! And I am still working on my Mother-Of-All-Posts to Representative Fann. It is so hard being me!

      I am going to have to get back to you with a detailed explanation on this but that is the Readers Digest version.

      Side Note: One of the first things they teach at investigator school is to establish rapport with your subject. So I am trying to do that with Marti by showing her I know some of the terms archeologists use.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 6:47 pm

        >> Gary said…
        >>
        >> Couldn’t find it, so I will take a shot at recreating what I am sure
        >> must have been a piece of masterful prose.

        I think this the comment you were looking for.
        It was down below in this chapter.

        Direct jumplink to the ( full ) comment below ( in this Chapter ) would be…

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308770

        Relevant part of the comment…

        On September 25, 2015 at 2:31 pm, Gary Olson said…
        —————————————————————————-
        …
        …
        Now…lots of people have contacted me and have provided me with details pertaining to the GMIHC and they have requested to remain anonymous and I have religiously respected their anonymity and I will continue to do so.
        …
        …
        Some things are just too important in helping us understand why the GMIHC died for me to keep to myself. I checked the number of page viewers on this blog early last year and it was around 30,000 a day. I have checked it recently a couple of times and we are down to about 1200 or so per day. I don’t know how many of those are “unique” page viewers and how many of them are readers who may check the site 2 or 3 times a day to see if there is something new. JD probably does through his website statistical tracker, but in any case I think we are down to the hard core readers who really care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        These readers almost certainly include some of those who loved the GMIHC and wildland firefighters.

        And so, I want to make one thing perfectly clear from my perspective, which I have stated many times before, but it has been awhile since I have done so. Since you have been following this blog, or thread or experiment in social media, you have read references to many disaster fires that resulted in wildland firefighter fatalities. The Loop, the Battlement Creek, the Mann Gulch, the South Canyon, the Rattlesnake, the Thirtymile, the Esperanza and now the Twisp along with several others. All of these wildfires and so many more were deadly tragedies, and to some extent simply the cost of doing business in an inherently dangerous job. In fact, I believe that all wildfires with fatalities before and since the Yarnell Hill Fire fit statistically within firmly established and well known parameters.

        The mainstream media with their talking heads, politicians, civic leaders, the SAIT, the agencies involved, and many other people have tried to portray, and very successfully I might add, the Yarnell Hill Fire as being just one more disaster fire. A wildfire that although it was certainly tragic, it was just like all other disaster wildfires that came before it and can be explained away as “sometimes bad things happen to good people” and therefore, it was understandable and to some extent…acceptable. Let’s bury the dead, grieve for them, build a memorial to them and move on to the next one. This is all a big lie.

        The Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was not the result of just one more disaster fire that can be explained using any of the standard templates. Please let me make one thing perfectly clear…the Yarnell Hill Fire was off the fucking charts. All of them.
        ————————————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Part 1

          Yes, thank you WTKTT, that is the most recent one where I attempted to address the issue and I know there were many more way back at the beginning and those are going to be very hard to find they are so scattered.

          I actually wrote a chapter in my much awaited book…oh forget it, you already know the title of it and where you can download Chapter 1 for free. But I will take a shot at it right now because I just went and took a little nap.

          The Loop Fire of 1966 which resulted in deaths of 12 El Cariso Hotshots who were burned alive prompted the U.S. Forest Service to take a hard look for what I think was really only the second time with the

          THE FIRE SAFETY REVIEW TEAM
          MARCH 1967
          A PLAN TO FURTHER REDUCE
          THE CHANCES OF MEN BEING BURNED WHILE FIGHTING FIRES
          http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/downloads/lsr1/lsr1_fire_safety_team.pdf

          The first time was with the Report of the Task Force to Recommend Action to Reduce the Chances of Men Being Killed by Burning While Fighting Fire, 1957.

          http://www.nafri.gov/sites/nafri.gov.testbed/files/attachments/Report_of_Fire_Task_Force_1957.pdf

          I think the Loop Fire occurred before fire behavior was accepted and studied as a science and before many of the current safety rules had been widely accepted by wildland firefighters. Although after reading what our esteemed hapless hero had to say on the subject it appears that he truly is a knuckle dragger in the truest sense of the word and evidence that Darwin’s Theory of Evolution is in fact seriously flawed. Although I still want to know who taught him to think, much less talk like that after what he went through.

          But to me, the real significance of the Loop Fire came when several other hotshot crews refused to carry out the assignment the El Cariso Hotshot Crew Boss ultimately agreed to do. Build hand fire line in a chute above an uncontrolled wildfire. So there is some good news there and some very bad news. The good news at least some people understood the basic concept of wildfire and how they burned, even if fire overhead was still in the mode of assigning crews to construct fire line in exactly the place where crews should not be working…as all of the readers of this blog know how to quickly recognize at this point.

          Reply

          • Part 2

            The next disaster fire involving hotshots was the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976. This fire burned when wildland firefighting safety was still in its infancy because we had not been trained in the use of fire shelters nor were we required to carry them even though the Chief of the Forest Service had ordered them to be carried by crews like ours and our sister crew, the Mormon Lake Hotshots on wildfires exactly like the Battlement Creek Fire.

            In addition, wildland firefighters were not even required to wear fire resistant trousers until after the Battlement Creek Fire even though they had been available for more than a decade and were discussed as being a good idea in the 1967 report to the Chief. It appears the primary reason for not requiring wildland firefighters to wear Nomex trousers was…the cost.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride1.html

            And just like the Loop Fire there was some good news in terms of wildland firefighting safety during the Battlement Creek Fire and there was some very bad news. The good news was that the crew boss of the Mormon Lake Hotshots was able to recognize the danger of continuing to work on a fire line his crew had constructed by hand on a steep slope directly above a huge back fire that was racing towards his crew, so he sent most of them into the planned safety zone in time to avoid a disaster of the Yarnell Hill Fire proportions.

            http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride10.html

            The bad news is that the fire overhead had assigned his crew to work there in the first place and had assigned another hotshot crew, the Happy Jack Hotshots (my crew) to backfire below them. And the crew boss was carrying a burning desire deep down in his soul to prove that his brand new crew was better than anybody else, he was full of the can do spirit. And so he actually lobbied the Fire Boss and the Plans Chief to take on such a dangerous assignment to prove how good he and his crew actually were.

            More bad news came when the crew boss remained with a squad boss and two crewman to finish their assignment even after he sent the majority of the crew to safety. Three out of the four were burned alive and the fourth (the squad boss) were seriously burned while he and another crewman lay in the dirt without fire shelters while a fire much like the Yarnell Hill Fire burned over them. The fire burned on a much steeper slope and so it passed over them much quicker.

            As the back fire burned over them, the other crewman screamed, “I’M ON FIRE” and then he ran down into the flames. The crew boss screamed something the others could not understand and then he ran down into the flames. I listened on the fire net radio as the first overhead on the scene who arrived in a medevac helicopter discussed how to cut open the airway of the crewman (who remained with the squad boss) because his throat was so badly burned he could not breathe. He died in place a few minutes later.

            Reply

            • Part 3

              http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/library_staff_ride9.html

              The South Canyon Fire Disaster happened while a squad (8 crewpersons and a squad boss who were all burned alive along with several others) of Prineville Hotshots, a gaggle smokejumpers from several different jump bases in several time zones, a couple of local helitack guys and a bunch other miscellaneous firefighters which included various low level local BLM employees, one of which was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, except when at least one smokejumper was the incident commander for some of the decisions, some of the time, and they were working on a steep slope above an uncontrolled wildfire.

              The only thing I have been able to figure out why they were all working above an uncontrolled wildfire was because the fire was a world class Cluster Fuck from day one and then it got worse as time went by. They didn’t even come up any new rules after South Canyon because they said, “Hey, we have already made more rules than anyone can remember now and these fucking firefighters are ignoring all of the ones we have already invented, so why should we dream up more?”

              Other than that, I’m going to blame what happened to the Prineville Hotshots on the fact that neither their crew boss nor their assistant crew boss was with them and therefore their command and control structure was broken down and they were subject to the miscellaneous whims of highly disorganized and fragmented local BLM district fire personnel and a gaggle of primadonnas who all either think they should be in charge or they want to go off and work by themselves while they do their own thing because nobody else is as good as they are, even though most of them are former hotshots.

              And then came the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013…and the rest is wildland firefighting history.

              I have got a lot more to say on this subject, but you are going to have to wait until I get my book published because I am getting sleepy again.

              Reply

              • The Number One Big Difference.

                The GMIHS were not fighting fire on the Line They were Hiking
                Out. One of the Most Basic things you can do find a SAFE ROUTE and move to a new location.

                The Crew was in a Safety Zone (400 plus acres of Black) no reason to Move no mater what the Fire did they were SAFE.

                The other Fires the Crews were all working on the line.

                Hiking out or to an SZ.
                1. The Fire compromised the Look Out. and the Vehicles.
                2. The Fire crossed the Cat Line.
                3. The Fire Crossed the Retardant line.
                4. For all intent and purpose the Fire was below the crew.
                5. The Fastest route is not always the safest route.
                6. The Black was their best SZ.
                7. The Helms ranch SZ was in the worst place for them
                A. Down the mountain in front of a flaming front.
                B. 1.5 miles through 6 to 10 ft. brush.
                C. down a 2 track through the Same Brush.
                D. A predicted Wind change with 20 plus MPH it was
                already pushing east into Yarnell and there was a
                2 mile active fire front 3/4 of a mile from the crew.
                Those are all extreme warning signs that went unheeded by Marsh and Steed. The very basics of fire behavior and the 18 situations that shout watch out..

                The long safe routes were right their if they needed to get to town.
                1. Off the Back side into the dessert and out to the highway.
                2. Back through the Black and down into Yarnell.
                3. Wait out the run in the black and then hike out. chose your route.

                All of that screams why did they chose to do what they did they never had to challenge the Dragon.
                They had absolutely no reason to hike into a brush filled death trap, t hat a Hundred other HS crews would never have gone.
                At least in my day.

                Reply

                • I’ll say Amen also.

                  Especially to the point that the GMHS were not actually fighting fire when they wound up getting burned over.

                  I appreciate your pointing that out and isolating it.

                  And, as I”m sitting here thinking about that, in comparison to a lot of other burnovers/near misses I’ve studied via LessonsLearned, I’m thinking there are quite a few in which other crews got trapped when they weren’t actually “fighting” a fire, also.

                  But I can’t think of a single one in which a crew left massive acres of safe black and walked, obviously, INTO a fire. I.e in the direction of where a fire was headed.

                  Reply

                  • Which is why I think that whatever happened at that descent point is truly critical. Possibly the most critical thing of all.

                    Given WTKTT’s video of that place at that time. It was positively ENGULFED in smoke

                    And, OK, I”m not a wildland firefighter, and I have no personal knowledge of this stuff. But over the past year, there have been videos released detailing the impacts of smoke on firefighter’s decision-making..

                    And they all talk about how massive carbon monoxide can really affect the brain and the ability to make accurate judgements and critical decisions.

                    I can’t imagine that wasn’t in play.

                    Reply

      • Thank you, Gary, for your historical documentation of this (especially as it pertains to Hotshot crews).

        And, yes, as I read it I “got” and slightly LOLLED when I read your layering of it in Southwest Anthropological/Archaeological terms. It both made me feel “special” and made a lot of sense to me.

        And I also learned from how you wrote it.

        So I”ve had a wild day today, that actually started last night with my Mastercard being turned down, and finding that it was possibly stolen (which, given what we pinned down today, still doesn’t make any sense to me), and having to drive cross-town to get another one, while thinking “none of this makes any sense to me!!

        And I know right now, that there’s a whole bunch of conversation going on upstream that I haven’t even gotten to.

        The thing that is echoing in my mind is your saying that what makes this DIFFERENT is that you don’t don’t know WHY they died. I’m saying that this conversation is about WHY they died. I think I know WHY they died.

        What I am seeing, at this point, including what has been happening this year, is a whole bunch of doing unsafe things in order to save structures, with the corresponding HERO status they are getting for attempting to do that.

        Reply

        • Thank you, and yes, I did put some thought into regarding how I could make my response special, descriptive and helpful…just for you.

          Reply

        • I agree with you, but once again, I am trying to leave some wiggle room because I don’t have the proof yet. All of the evidence is compelling, but it circumstantial. Now, there is not necessarily anything wrong with that, the prisons are full of people who were put there by circumstantial evidence, but I would like to find a smoking gun if there is one.

          Reply

    • Let me try to answer your question one more time.

      The Yarnell Hill Fire is off the all of the known charts because of the following reasons;

      1. I know why 12 El Cariso Hotshots died on the Loop Fire of 1966.

      2. I know why 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots died on the Battlement Creek Fire of 1976.

      3. I know why 9 Prineville Hotshots died on the South Canyon Fire of 1994.

      4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 6, 2015 at 1:49 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> 4. I don’t know why 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on
        >> the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013.

        Stay tuned. The odds in Vegas say it’s unlikely that the most HISTORIC ( so far ) one on the ( your ) list will be the one that remains ‘a total mystery’.

        History doesn’t like these kinds of mysteries.

        They tend to get ‘solved’… sooner or later.

        Reply

  48. A loyal reader sent me the following email that I need to share with you, whoever you are;

    “There is something I’d like to ask you about regarding the infamous Hail Mary plan.

    While there is at present no way of knowing who originally came up with it — whether it was Marsh, Cordes or Musser — I am curious to know what the implications are in the event it was Marsh who approached the others and lobbied for this plan as “doable.” Naturally, this is because I tend to think it actually was this way, since out of the three it was only Marsh who had the all-important view of the fire from high up on a mountain. It was Marsh who was already taking action on this apparent “plan” at the time GM was told to hunker and be safe. And, Marsh’s subsequent efforts to be evasive about what GM was doing indicates that neither Abel nor Musser had any knowledge that GM was leaving the black in accordance with any “plan.” (Not to mention that there’s not been anything substantial which definitively links Musser to ordering anything regarding this pure folly that’s been described as the Hail Mary plan.)

    If it actually was Marsh who approached Cordes and “possibly” Musser with how this plan had merit, and because these two were likely inclined to think the information coming from their Division A boss was reliable for the reason that they believed him to be both a qualified person with the needed expertise AND someone who could see the fire like they could not … and so they decided to make at least an “initial effort” or “first step” to begin on the Plan (before it promptly fell apart) ,,, then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division who boss told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.

    It is just a scenario that I find difficult to dismiss.”

    And I replied;

    “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”

    Absolutely NOTHING!

    This is just one of the reasons why I like hearing from you, as an highly intelligent and informed outsider, you have clarity on this disaster that I lack either because of my close association with the industry or my lack of intellect. In either case, this is my new position and I am going to beat on this drum from now on because it makes perfect sense. FYI – This is so important I am going to post it.

    And as an investigator, it never really mattered that I wasn’t the smartest guy in the room, I didn’t have to be. I just had to know how to find the smartest people in the room and then listen to them and then put it all together in a case report.

    Thank you.”

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 12:15 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> “You asked “then what are they really guilty of except listening to
      >> what their Division boss who told them when they had no way of
      >> knowing that this was someone who “never” should have had ANY
      >> lives entrusted to him .. much less 19.”
      >>
      >> Absolutely NOTHING!

      I’m going to disagree with that.

      If they ( Operations Level Supervisors Todd Abel and Paul Musser ) did NOT know this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was ‘underway’… then they are at least guilty of not keeping their Division Level Supervisors under proper supervision and not knowing what the fuck he/they were doing.

      If they DID know about this ‘Hail Mary’ plan… then I believe they are guilty of simply not having the sense to ‘call it off’ because it was ‘too little, too late, too dangerous’.

      There are too many ‘bits and pieces’ of evidence on the table to believe that this ‘Hail Mary’ plan was NOT underway that afternoon.

      Way too many.

      Who was the original ‘author’ of it… and who got who else to be ‘on board’… remains a mystery but the compass needle only points in a finite number of directions.

      Remember…. we still have NO IDEA what the hell it was that DIVSA Marsh felt was so all-fired important circa 3:30 PM that he would request that Brian Friby drop everything was doing and eat dust and schlep all the way up to that anchor point for another ‘face-to-face’ at that critical time.

      Or why Brian Frisby would even consent to do so, at such a critical time.

      What could possibly have been so important ( circa 3:30 PM ) that Marsh couldn’t have just talked about it on the radio?

      It would seem that there must have been something Marsh felt Brian Frisby had to SEE from Marsh’s vantage point and that is why he was asking him to make that long trip all the way up to that ridge where Marsh was standing.

      Frisby never made it. That’s how bad the timing was.

      By the time Frisby even got halfway up there the fire was already moving south so quickly that it had chased Brendan off his lookout mound… and what was supposed to be a ‘face-to-face’ with Marsh ( for still-unknown reasons ) just turned into a rescue mission for Brendan McDonough.

      So whatever it was that Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby… or talk to him about… Marsh knew that face-to-face was never going to happen at precisely 3:39 PM… when Frisby radioed Steed ( and Marsh ) to tell him he wasnt’ coming… and he was rescuing Brendan… and did Marsh want them ( Blue Ridge ) to move their vehicles to safety.

      It is still highly likely that what Marsh wanted to ‘show’ Frisby is that he thought he saw dozer line possibilities down there near Glen Ilah and that they should now focus on ‘that plan’ to try and at least keep the fire out of that community.

      That ‘plan’ could even have been what Marsh was actually referring to when we HEAR him ( with our own ears, thanks to Christopher MacKenzie ( Rest in peace ) ) saying to Steed…

      “I could just feel this comin’… ya know?”

      What Marsh might have meant was…

      “When I saw that thing turn south and blow through that retardant line… I knew we were going to have to end up trying to save some town today… in THIS burn cycle”.

      Whoever might have ‘authored’ the plan to try and find some way to cut emergency dozer line near Glen Ilah… SPGS1 Gary Cordes still had to be ‘in on it’ because Cordes was the one controlling the DOZER and its operator… Paul Morin.

      There is absolutely NO DOUBT that Gary Cordes KNEW those men were headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch. He was so sure of it that while the Shrine Road area was being evacuated he specifically told his TFLD(t) trainee Tyson Esquibel to send at least one engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure ‘Granite Mountain’ was getting out of there safely.

      Why, then, was SPGS1 Gary Cordes so SURE that’s where they were headed ( or, in his mind, probably already WERE )… when no one else seemed to know?

      Why, then, would TLFD(t) Tyson Esquibel consider this ‘order’ to send engines to the BSR so significant that he specifically mentions it his Unit Log… when SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( who actually gave Esquibel that order ) says absolutely NOTHING about it in HIS Unit Log… and also mentions NOTHING about this in EITHER of his official ‘interviews’? ( SAIT / ADOSH ).

      These are still important mysteries that need better answers.

      Reply

      • For anyone who might not have followed this discussion for awhile… it’s worth pointing out that one of the most IMPORTANT players in the story for that entire Sunday… Dozer operator Paul Morin… has STILL ( as far as we know ) never been interviewed by ANYONE and/or has never made a single comment associated with that fateful day.

        Dozer operator Paul Morin even ended up on the list of ‘missing persons’ that DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 was told to be ‘looking for’ as it took to the air trying to find the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        There is still every chance in the world that dozer operator Paul Morin got ‘caught’ back there at the south end of the Sesame area and had to ‘ride out the burnonver’ in either glass-enclosed cab of the dozer or in the cab of his loboy trailer there at the south end of the Sesame area.

        We still don’t even know WHO actually ADDED dozer operator Paul Morin’s name to the list of ‘missing persons’ for Helicopter Ranger 58 before it even took to the air.

        Someone did.

        Someone who was responsible for him ( SPGS Cary Cordes? ) realized he didn’t know where the fuck he was and that it was likely he was ‘trapped’ back there along with Granite Mountain.

        It’s still very important to hear Mr. Paul Morin’s side of ‘the story’ from that day… if for no other reason than to ascertain where he was, what his instructions were at that late hour in the afternoon, why he was added to the ‘missing persons’ list… and whether or not he really did almost become the 20th fatality that day.

        Reply

      • Thank you WTKTT for your detailed and very thoughtful counterpoint. Just as you do, I believe that point – counterpoint (Jane You Ignorant Slut, SNL during the good ole days) is the lifeblood of this thread. And since it has been at least a couple of weeks since I have said it, let me say yet again that I consider you to be without a doubt one of the “the smartest guy’s in the room”, which is why I always read whatever you say so carefully.

        HOWEVER…I think you missed a very important point this time. I never said (by quoting one of our readers verbatim this time) that none of those people you mentioned didn’t know about the Hail Mary Plan. I just don’t think any of them are guilty of anything by buying into it with Marsh.

        And here is where I play one of my favorite cards…again and beat on one of my favorite drums. I am after all, a former wildland firefighter who saw the elephant more than most ever will, not more than many, but more than most. And in fact, I agree with you that I think all of the people you mentioned and many more knew about the Hail Mary Plan and knew specifically what their role in it was to be. I just don’t think We The People who paid for this debacle and almost all of the aftermath have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh.

        So without going into a long detailed explanation of why and how this incident was so chaotic, which we all are fully aware by now, let me just say yet again that Chaos was running this fire during the time period in question. Which as I have said many times, is not uncommon in the early stages of fighting wildfires. That is why it is so critical for battle commanders to rely on field commanders to make battlefield decisions in real time (my that was a lot of military analogies in a single sentence).

        I think it was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for whoever bought into the plan to have bought into it based on Marsh’s solid reputation within the wildland firefighting community. We have to remember that most wildland firefighters either did not know Marsh had exhibited fatally flawed decision making abilities late in life (he wasn’t a dumb ass kid whose brain had not fully developed yet) or they did not know of the details of his background and just how serious his errors in judgment had been.. Or perhaps they had forgiven him because he had found Jesus and had turned his life around as far as they knew.

        They were after all, relying on Darrell Willis to fully vet him as a field commander who had so many young lives that were subject to his every whim. They were also probably unaware that Marsh had simply replaced his dependence on one drug with another in his life so he was fighting new demons that looked a lot like the old ones.

        Nor do I believe that any of them knew “the rest of the story”(Paul Harvey) about the Prescott City Council looking to axe the crew because they weren’t revenue neutral enough for them, or the fact that Darrell Willis had put a “Mr. Lebowski asked me to repeat that…her life is in your hands Dude (Brandt)” kind of pressure on Marsh in that saving the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Fire Division was in his hands. Unreasonable pressure that made Marsh a very dangerous and wholly unpredictable field commander.

        I always operated with the confidence that no matter what I did, if I did it with the best interests of our crew in mind, the U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers who had entrusted me with THEIR hotshot crews (Richard Allred and Orlando Romero) would forgive anything I did when I returned to our home district.

        And for anyone out there in the wildland firefighting world who is reading this and currently has, or may someday have young lives subject to your every whim who don’t think I should be writing about Marsh like this, don’t kill your crew or you will get the same exact treatment whether you die with them or you survive your stupidity. The explosion of social media sits and the widespread use of cheap computers has changed the rules of the game…and the new rules are not in your favor.

        And let me say yet again for the record. I identify with Marsh because I fought my own demons and I made similar mistakes either against more forgiving wildfires or I was luckier than he was in the end because he is dead and I am sitting here blogging about it.

        And if Marsh were here today, I would still give him a man hug, forgive him and we would cry together. But let me say also once again, forgiveness is not mine to give, that has to come from those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

        Side Note: Hmmm, some of the things you said has me even thinking harder about another email I received on the side from yet another really smart and informed reader who does not post here. What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?

        Reply

      • My original comment is stuck in moderation and I know that can be a black hole so I am going to repost it.

        Thank you WTKTT for your detailed and very thoughtful counterpoint. Just as you do, I believe that point – counterpoint (Jane You Ignorant Slut, SNL during the good ole days) is the lifeblood of this thread. And since it has been at least a couple of weeks since I have said it, let me say yet again that I consider you to be without a doubt one of the “the smartest guy’s in the room”, which is why I always read whatever you say so carefully.

        HOWEVER…I think you missed a very important point this time. I never said (by quoting one of our readers verbatim this time) that none of those people you mentioned didn’t know about the Hail Mary Plan. I just don’t think any of them are guilty of anything by buying into it with Marsh.

        And here is where I play one of my favorite cards…again and beat on one of my favorite drums. I am after all, a former wildland firefighter who saw the elephant more than most ever will, not more than many, but more than most. And in fact, I agree with you that I think all of the people you mentioned and many more knew about the Hail Mary Plan and knew specifically what their role in it was to be. I just don’t think We The People who paid for this debacle and almost all of the aftermath have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh.

        So without going into a long detailed explanation of why and how this incident was so chaotic, which we all are fully aware by now, let me just say yet again that Chaos was running this fire during the time period in question. Which as I have said many times, is not uncommon in the early stages of fighting wildfires. That is why it is so critical for battle commanders to rely on field commanders to make battlefield decisions in real time (my that was a lot of military analogies in a single sentence).

        I think it was perfectly reasonable under the circumstances for whoever bought into the plan to have bought into it based on Marsh’s solid reputation within the wildland firefighting community. We have to remember that most wildland firefighters either did not know Marsh had exhibited fatally flawed decision making abilities late in life (he wasn’t a dumb ass kid whose brain had not fully developed yet) or they did not know of the details of his background and just how serious his errors in judgment had been.. Or perhaps they had forgiven him because he had found Jesus and had turned his life around as far as they knew.

        They were after all, relying on Darrell Willis to fully vet him as a field commander who had so many young lives that were subject to his every whim. They were also probably unaware that Marsh had simply replaced his dependence on one drug with another in his life so he was fighting new demons that looked a lot like the old ones.

        Nor do I believe that any of them knew “the rest of the story”(Paul Harvey) about the Prescott City Council looking to axe the crew because they weren’t revenue neutral enough for them, or the fact that Darrell Willis had put a “Mr. Lebowski asked me to repeat that…her life is in your hands Dude (Brandt)” kind of pressure on Marsh in that saving the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Fire Division was in his hands. Unreasonable pressure that made Marsh a very dangerous and wholly unpredictable field commander.

        I always operated with the confidence that no matter what I did, if I did it with the best interests of our crew in mind, the U.S. Forest Service Fire Management Officers who had entrusted me with THEIR hotshot crews (Richard Allred and Orlando Romero) would forgive anything I did when I returned to our home district.

        And for anyone out there in the wildland firefighting world who is reading this and currently has, or may someday have young lives subject to your every whim who don’t think I should be writing about Marsh like this, don’t kill your crew or you will get the same exact treatment whether you die with them or you survive your stupidity. The explosion of social media sits and the widespread use of cheap computers has changed the rules of the game…and the new rules are not in your favor.

        And let me say yet again for the record. I identify with Marsh because I fought my own demons and I made similar mistakes either against more forgiving wildfires or I was luckier than he was in the end because he is dead and I am sitting here blogging about it.

        And if Marsh were here today, I would still give him a man hug, forgive him and we would cry together. But let me say also once again, forgiveness is not mine to give, that has to come from those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

        Side Note: Hmmm, some of the things you said has me even thinking harder about another email I received on the side from yet another really smart and informed reader who does not post here. What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?

        Reply

      • OK. Since we all agree, I think, that this point-counterpoint kind of mulling things over has always been our strong point (I know I have appreciated it and benefitted from it massively), as one of the ones who “discovered” this Hail Mary Plan by continuing to follow the dots over a LONG period of time (and thank you Calvin for also persisting and thank you Joy (to whom I owe some emails) for providing some VERY IMPORTANT dots in June that led to us piecing this together), I am sitting here thinking about what both of you are saying and agreeing with both of you and so maybe that puts me into a point-counterpoint-point position?

        I probably shouldn’t even be writing this, as I’ve had a very stressful evening that began right after I read Gary’s original post and then finally I got a mess resolved and then read the rest of the posts, and I’m almost brain-dead.

        The thing that bugs me the most about all of this is that I think the SAIT knew about it and attempted to SERIOUSLY hide it from the record. I think the reason we don’t know about it enough to be able to, as Gary wrote, “have any definitive proof this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh” is precisely because of that “scrubbing.”

        And I think that “scrubbing” began right there during that very early (and scathing) SAIT interview with the Blue Ridge Hotshots. I think Cory Ball was describing it then, and I think that’s part of what was redacted from his (and possibly others”) notes,

        I think the SAIT also heard those conversations that were recorded that indicated some people either were wondering or even knew that Granite Mountain was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to get to Glen Isla, so I think the SAIT knew about the plan and all those communications.

        If they didn’t think there was something problematic with it, why did they go to such efforts to hide it from the record?

        If they didn’t think there was something problematic, why did they go to such efforts to create and manage a narrative that, essentially, said, both, that there was no communication going on during that 30-minute period, and that why GMHS left the black and went down into that explosive fuel-filled canyon is a total mystery that went with them to their graves and we can never possibly know, and THAT is what THE PUBLIC ET AL still believes to this very day.

        Why didn’t they just come out and say what I think they knew but didn’t want anybody else to know — even fuzzily — they saw there might be a way to help put in/backfire/whatever a dozer line and Gary Cordes thought it might work also, and highly possibly even Paul Musser, and so they decided to head to Glen Isla and, unfortunately they didn’t have time to get there before the fire turned and caught them by surprise in the canyon?

        I mean, really, what’s the problem with that??????

        Given what I believe is the truth that Gary is writing, I think everybody would have been able to forgive everybody if that had been the “official narration.” It’s quite understandable, all things considered.

        Instead they they apparently immediately (as by the time they were interviewing the Blue Ridge Hotshots) decided to start and do whatever it took to maintain this whole “mystery” narrative that they knew was not true.

        What did that gain them? A lot of the public still believes it, but from what I’ve read, a huge part of both the public and fire-fighters think it is bogus.

        So that’s the frustrating counterpoint I’m sitting here with, after agreeing with both of you and still thinking, “But…………..”

        Which is why I’m 20% more agreeing with WTKTT than with Gary. The SAIT (for historical reasons we are aware of — the threat of the possible legal consequences of naming anybody as being, by virtue of accountability, responsible for anything) has ALWAYS been bending itself into pretzels in order to protect “The Overhead” on this fire for the consequences of their decision-making.

        I’m still struggling with the question of “Who, exactly, are they protecting, and why?”

        I still, personally, think (PROVE ME WRONG, SOMEBODY!!!!) that it is Paul Musser. But maybe it’s Eric Marsh.

        PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that. I still haven’t moved my five hard drives over to where I am currently now camping/living, and so I don’t have access to all my documents regarding that.

        And another PS. I really believe identifying those 4:00-4:30 radio conversations is critical in this, WHO KNEW??? I think that is important, all things considered. Since I, right now, don’t have access to the relevant files, I want to ask WTKTT if he thinks there is any possibility that the voice in the conversation with Bravo 33 that led into someone with a hard drawl asking “Waz yo status?” might have been Tony Sciacca?

        Or maybe that guy from the Prescott Musketeers that was photographed crossing the Air2Air Video at that time talking on a radio?

        I have been trying to identify who might have been just driving around and, thus, not engaged directly in dealing directly with the fire during that half-hour period between 4 and 4:30, and, thus, possibly more engaged in that radio traffic.

        OK so I guess I need to summarize this. I think that the fact that SO MUCH of the essential truth-based narrative of what actually happened has been so deliberately hidden from the public and the fire-fighers and the families (who by now have their own “control-the-narrative” games going on) by those that possess the data says that there is someone who is being protected in all of this.

        Because of all of that, I honestly don’t know if it’s possible to determine if anybody who is still alive is “innocent” or not.

        Reply

        • Marti,
          I believe you are so right on its amazing! I am without a computer right now but I will add more later.

          Reply

          • And I am looking forward to reading more about what Norb thinks about this, because it was his concept that I originally bought into.

            Reply

            • In my experience as a Div. Sup.(10years) and as a type 2 Ops Section Chief( 8 years) I valued the opinions and ideas of the Hot Shot Sup. They were my “go to guys” when things were not going as planned. After all, these guys usually had been there done that more than most of the team players. That being said, on a local level I also recognized the abilities (or lack of) of the local resources.

              I believe this “hail Mary plan” most likely originated from Div. A, but I also believe it was communicated and bought off on by Ops, thus the emergency scouting for the dozer push. Too many of the dots line up for this to be solely the plan of Marsh with no one else having any clue of what was going on. The dozer push, sending an engine or two to the ranch to make sure GM made it out, asking if they can go faster – knowing that if this operation had any chance of working it was timing sensitive/critical. To me this is the only reason a crew would leave the safe black. And as an Ops Section in this situation it was a long shot for success, but it seems they were out of options.

              So is there fault for trying a last ditch effort to save the community?
              In my opinion no, as long as the resources needed can get there safely and be safe and effective in conducting the mission.

              As we have stated a number of times, the safety of the crew comes down to the crew leader(s). The decision to move or not to move is theirs and theirs alone regardless of “the plan”. I do believe that the human factors that Gary has pointed played heavily in that decision.

              Reply

              • Reply to Norb Szczurek post
                on October 6, 2015 at 9:09 am

                Incredibly well thought-out and stated, Norb.
                Thank you.

                >> Norb said…
                >>
                >> So is there fault for trying a last ditch effort to
                >> save the community?
                >>
                >> In my opinion no, as long as the resources needed
                >> can get there safely and be safe and effective in
                >> conducting the mission.

                Copy that.

                Let’s just say that really is what was happening that afternoon… do you have a ‘feel’, then, as to why there would have been such a concerted effort to ‘cover this up’ and not just ‘tell the truth’?

                I’m beginning to question even my own long-standing belief that it was the Arizona State Forestry lawyers ( in the Arizona Attorney General’s office ) that were ‘advising’ the SAIT that it would be better if any evidence of such a ‘last-ditch-effort’ plan never saw the light of day.

                It would seem ( based on what you just said ) that they really shouldn’t have had too many worries about that with regards to protecting the ‘higher ups’.

                If that really was WHY those men were where they were… WHEN they were… then it seems like this ‘story’ would have made their efforts seem even more ‘heroic’.

                In other words…

                1) Yes… there was a plan to try and save some town.
                2) Yes… resources were committed.
                3) Yes… operations was told it was ‘doable’.
                4) Something went wrong. They didn’t make it.

                I’m still seeing the ‘liability’ there where the rubber met the road ( with Marsh and Steed )… but as far as being afraid to admit there WAS ‘a plan’… I’m not sure why they would have been ( or would still be ) afraid to admit it.

                As we have stated a number of times, the safety of the crew comes down to the crew leader(s). The decision to move or not to move is theirs and theirs alone regardless of “the plan”. I do believe that the human factors that Gary has pointed played heavily in that decision.

                Reply

                • Correction… that last paragraph above was not ‘me’ speaking… that was Norb’s paragraph from his comment.

                  I meant to put that in ‘brackets’ and just say “I agree”.

                  Reply

                  • I really don’t know why, if this is what happened it is being covered up. My only thought is that maybe due to the ineffectiveness from the early stages of this fire they don’t want a lot of detail to become public – I don’t really know I do think (if this is what happened) I agree with you and Marti in the fact that it makes the effort even more heroic.

                    Reply

                    • Thank you, both of you.

                      This is EXACTLY what I have been thinking and trying to say.

                      I don’t understand (and haven’t all along) WHY the INTENSE cover-up, all thing considered.

                      It really didn’t help them at all, in they eye of the public and other fire-fighters.

                      And it probably wouldn’t have changed the equation, dollars-wise.

                      The outcome — that Marsh and Steed were responsible for their decisions, in spite of everything, including the plan — and, really, nobody else — hasn’t changed one iota.

                      OK now I REALLY have to go look for that missing credit card.

                    • And once again, the only reason I can think of is because that is what they do. And I don’t think they do it in terms of a Watergate cover up.

                      I think they do it because like WTKTT has said many times only us wildland firefighters understand us, we know what happened and why, we will make in-house corrective changes and we need to move on, the next fire season is coming up and we need to get ready for it.

                • Well…I am glad that everyone seems to understand that the reader who I agreed with was not saying definitely that is what happened, only that based on the conditions and circumstances on the ground at the time that decision would have been made, it is MOST logical that it came from Marsh, but many others bought into it and were to play a role in.

                  And as far as why they didn’t spin it that way as WTKTT has asked, I don’t know either. But maybe by that time they realized just how foolish and reckless that decision was and they didn’t see the need to damage (in their eyes) the reputation of Type 1A crews and embarrass or make the families angry that their loved had died for such foolish and reckless plan?

                  The only thing that really bothers me, is that IF we are right about the entire concept of a Hail Mary Plan even existing, a lot of people would have known about it.

                  And normally, you can’t keep a secret if more than one person knows about it. So I really am going to try and find a way to shake the story loose as I have been saying.

                  And that way has been suggested to me by another very smart and loyal reader who does not post here because…I don’t know why, but it doesn’t matter.

                  And this goes back to what I have been saying for two years now, but I am embarrassed to admit that I did not connect the dots with what I knew had to be done, which is to develop a Source of Information (SOI), with the time tested way of developing an SOI when appealing to their civic duty does not work.

                  Offer to pay money for the information. How? And who pays? Where does the money come from? We need to work out a lot of details, but the money could come from Crowd Funding.

                  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crowdfunding

                  It would be best if that were done under the banner of the Investigative Media banner because normally a “group” endorses the idea. But if John does not think that is a good idea or something his thread should not be involved in, I would establish a shadow group under a different name, or if nobody wants to support it, I will try it under the GO Banner of In The Pursuit Of Truth, Justice & The American Way Foundation and Website.

                  So…I would like everyone to think about the idea and weigh in if you support the idea, at least in the initial stages of developing it?

                  And I am moving this to the top to make sure it gets noticed.

                  Reply

        • FYI – I agreed with the comment “It is just a scenario that I find difficult to dismiss” from our reader, not “It is just a scenario that I am convinced is correct.”

          And then I said “What we really need is some way to shake the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?”

          And I thought what WTKTT was disagreeing with me about was whether or not Musser, Able, and Cordes, knew about the plan, which in fact, I think they did know about it.

          Nor did I say “it’s possible to determine if anybody who is still alive is “innocent” or not.”

          I did say however, that I thought that IF Musser, Able, and Cordes bought into the plan under the chaotic circumstances (and yes I know I am more sympathetic when wildfires are managed by Chaos than most) then they didn’t do anything wrong.

          IF…Marsh called one or more of them on the radio or cell and said, “I can get the GMIHC to the backside of Yarnell and we can be in place in time to back fire the dozer line before the fire gets there.” And since he had eyes on the fire, he was the ground commander on scene as Divison A Supervisor and he knew the exact location and status of his crew and he had timed his descent to the Helms Ranch, I don’t see why Musser, Able and Cordes are guilty of being bad fire managers because they bought into that plan by saying, “if you can do it…go for it and let us know what you need.”

          As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

          Reply

          • In the old days a big fire was called a “campaign” fire and then later big fires were called “project” fires, I don’t know what they are called now, big “incidents” I guess. In any case, they are big wildfires that require a lot of various resources for multiple shifts to contain.

            That being said, I don’t think I have ever been on a big fire during the first 36 hours that was not managed by Chaos. I have written a version of this before, but it has been awhile.

            “That is why it is so critical that fire line supervisors bring their A-game with them when they go to a big fire. They make the decisions that may mean the difference between life and death for those under their control and who they are responsible for.”

            Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on October 5, 2015 at 10:45 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> FYI – I agreed with the comment “It is just a scenario that
            >> I find difficult to dismiss” from our reader, not “It is just
            >> a scenario that I am convinced is correct.”

            I like the symmetry there with…

            “When you have eliminated the impossible… whatever is left ( however improbable ) must be the truth”.

            Unlike the US Forestry Service, Arizona State Forestry, City of Prescott and a host of other people, agencies.. and God-all-who-else… I don’t want the TRUTH to be ‘bent’ in one direction or the other.

            I just want it to be KNOWN.

            In case no one has noticed… everything starts there, as far as I am concerned.

            “There can be no true understanding without first, the truth”

            I put quote marks around that because I’m sure I didn’t say that first… but I don’t remember who did.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >>
            >> And then I said “What we really need is some way to shake
            >> the story loose from those who are sitting on it…right?”
            >>
            >> And I thought what WTKTT was disagreeing with me
            >> about was whether or not Musser, Able, and Cordes, knew
            >> about the plan, which in fact, I think they did know about it.

            Nope. I wasn’t disagreeing with that part of your comment at all.

            It would NOT surprise me at all if they ALL knew about it.

            I also UNDERSTAND what you were saying about them all never being able to be held accountable for ‘buying into’ a plan coming from the mouth of local golden-boy Eric Marsh.

            There is all the evidence in the world that any number of people not only knew WHERE these guys were… but they were actually “cheering” ( even ordering? ) them on.and even telling them to “Hurry up”.

            I think whoever those people are as just as responsible for the tragedy that happened that day as two field managers ( Marsh / Steed ) who actually ‘pulled the trigger’.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> As far as why “they” are obfuscating the truth, it’s like
            >> the GEICO commercial say’s…that’s what they do.

            Yes… but as one of the persons who pays their fucking salaries… I’m not giving them a ‘free pass’. Sorry.

            Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on October 5, 2015 at 10:04 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> OK. Since we all agree, I think, that this point-counterpoint
          >> kind of mulling things over has always been our strong point
          >> (I know I have appreciated it and benefitted from it massively),
          >> as one of the ones who “discovered” this Hail Mary Plan by
          >> continuing to follow the dots over a LONG period of time (and
          >> thank you Calvin for also persisting and thank you Joy (to whom
          >> I owe some emails) for providing some VERY IMPORTANT
          >> dots in June that led to us piecing this together),

          Echoing the same thanks. Yes… that photo that Joy provided ( with permission of the owner ) was VERY important. It proves that Cory Ball WAS right there at the intersection of Fountainhead and Lakewood… right when he should have been according to ‘other evidence’.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> The thing that bugs me the most about all of this is that I think
          >> the SAIT knew about it and attempted to SERIOUSLY hide it
          >> from the record. I think the reason we don’t know about it
          >> enough to be able to, as Gary wrote, “have any definitive proof
          >> this plan existed and was in fact being implanted by Marsh” is
          >> precisely because of that “scrubbing.”

          The ‘scrubbing’ is there for all the world to see.
          It’s not a ‘conspiracy theory’.

          Just look at the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit logs.

          The USFS has NEVER even said what valid FOIA ‘exemption’ they are even claiming for ALL of those redactions.

          Even for a ‘privacy reasons’ FOIA exemptions… Names, addresses and phone numbers don’t take up entire fucking paragraphs.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> And I think that “scrubbing” began right there during that
          >> very early (and scathing) SAIT interview with the Blue Ridge
          >> Hotshots. I think Cory Ball was describing it then, and I think
          >> that’s part of what was redacted from his (and possibly
          >> others”) notes,

          I would actually believe the fact that they forgot to ‘scrub’ Cory Ball’s notes well enough to take out that “instructed to scout dozer line near Glen Ilah’ entry was just an actual fuck-up on their part.

          They may have had their own “Oh SHIT!” moment when they actually realized they had actually left that entry unredacted.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> I think the SAIT also heard those conversations that were
          >> recorded that indicated some people either were wondering
          >> or even knew that Granite Mountain was headed to the
          >> Boulder Springs Ranch in order to get to Glen Isla,

          Of course they did.

          That’s why they consulted with the lawyers and the final statement in the SAIR wasn’t “We found no direct communications with the crew between 3:55 PM and 3:39 PM”.

          What they said was… “We cannot VERIFY any communications”.

          That leaves just the right amount of stinky brown shitload of ‘wiggle room’ they needed to accomplish their goal… but still NOT be accused of ‘lying’.

          They could have had 10 people who knew Eric Marsh standing in a room listening to the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video and they might have ALL been saying… “Yep… no doubt about it… that’s Eric Marsh giving that status report on GM and telling some mysterious person who wanted to know what was taking so long that the reason they weren’t where they were yet is because they were coming ‘from the heel of the fire’…

          …and Jim Karels and Mike Dudley could have STILL said… “Well… that still doesn’t sound like total VERIFICATION of a radio transmission to us”.

          THEY were the ones deciding what evidence was ‘verified’… and what they were going to throw on the trash heap and call ‘unverified’… yet they have never had to explain what criteria this monkey-team was using ( or not using ) to actually VERIFY anything at all.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> so I think the SAIT knew about the plan and all those communications.

          I would bet money on it ( BOTH things ).

          Speaking of ‘money’…

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> If they didn’t think there was something problematic with it,
          >> why did they go to such efforts to hide it from the record?
          >>
          >> If they didn’t think there was something problematic, why
          >> did they go to such efforts to create and manage a narrative that,
          >> essentially, said, both, that there was no communication going
          >> on during that 30-minute period, and that why GMHS left the
          >> black and went down into that explosive fuel-filled canyon is
          >> a total mystery that went with them to their graves and we
          >> can never possibly know, and THAT is what THE PUBLIC ET
          >> AL still believes to this very day.
          >>
          >> Why didn’t they just come out and say what I think they knew
          >> but didn’t want anybody else to know — even fuzzily — they
          >> saw there might be a way to help put in/backfire/whatever
          >> a dozer line and Gary Cordes thought it might work also, and
          >> highly possibly even Paul Musser, and so they decided to
          >> head to Glen Isla and, unfortunately they didn’t have time to
          >> get there before the fire turned and caught them by surprise
          >> in the canyon?
          >>
          >> I mean, really, what’s the problem with that??????

          $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

          To have admitted that the only reason those men were ordered out of the safety of the black was because of some hair-brained ‘Hail Mary’ plan that was never going to work would have been the worst thing they could have done… according to what their laywers would have been telling them at the time.

          Remember… the original damage amounts being requested for all the wrongful deaths suits combined exceeded the entire annual budget of the City of Prescott.

          And then take a moment to remember what planet this is.

          When that kind of $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ comes onto the table… the TRUTH always take a backseat.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> Given what I believe is the truth that Gary is writing, I think
          >> everybody would have been able to forgive everybody if
          >> that had been the “official narration.” It’s quite understandable,
          >> all things considered.

          And people still will… when it all finally comes out…

          …but at the time Mike Dudley and Jim Karels were ‘at work’… they were looking at (perhaps) the City of Prescott coming up for sale on eBay if
          they actually told ‘the real story’…. and the State of Arizona having to get another huge loan from the Chinese.

          Forgiveness is always fine. The TRUTH usually COSTS.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> Instead they they apparently immediately (as by the time
          >> they were interviewing the Blue Ridge Hotshots) decided to
          >> start and do whatever it took to maintain this whole “mystery”
          >> narrative that they knew was not true.

          Jim Karels and Mike Dudley were doing the job THEY were PAID to do.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> What did that gain them?

          Mike Dudley has already been promoted.
          Jim Karels can probably also now ‘punch his own ticket’ whenever he wants.

          >> Marti also wrote…
          >>
          >> A lot of the public still believes it, but from what I’ve read, a
          >> huge part of both the public and fire-fighters think it is bogus.

          Yes, they do.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> I’m still struggling with the question of “Who, exactly, are
          >> they protecting, and why?”

          You are talking about a business that always has trouble attracting GOOD help and always depends on…

          1) The old-timers believing they will be ‘protected’ by the system.
          2) The young dog-work being done for something other than shit money.

          They HAVE to protect ‘the system’ as it is.

          It has to remain “the hero business”… or they won’t fill the seats.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way
          >> back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he
          >> did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other
          >> street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that.

          I don’t remember reaching that conclusion at all.

          My only recollection is that from the moment Calvin ( the steely eyed rocket men ) did his first ‘slowly I turned’ moment and asked us all…

          “Hey… what about the dozer guy? Why was Ranger 58 looking for him?”

          ….it has ( and remains ) a TOTAL MYSTERY where this Paul Morin guy really WAS at the moment 19 men were burning to death 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          If I’m going brain-dead on this one, myself, remind me WHY we ‘decided’ that he must have ‘driven out’? I really don’t recall making that conclusion,
          not even during the Joy-Collura photo inspired revisit back in June.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> And another PS. I really believe identifying those 4:00-4:30 radio
          >> conversations is critical in this, WHO KNEW??? I think that is
          >> important, all things considered. Since I, right now, don’t have
          >> access to the relevant files, I want to ask WTKTT if he thinks
          >> there is any possibility that the voice in the conversation
          >> with Bravo 33 that led into someone with a hard drawl
          >> asking “Waz yo status?” might have been Tony Sciacca?

          I actually don’t… and here is exactly why.

          There is NO QUESTION that at exactly 4:13 PM… someone with what sounds like a heavy Lousiana-Cajun accent called out to ‘Granite Mountain’ on one of the TAC channels and asked the following ( and it sounded like this )…

          “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?”

          When the US Forestry Service finally admitted they had ALWAYS been withholding TONS of Helmet-Cam video taken all afternoon in Yarnell by their own Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd… we also got a video capturing Tony Sciacca standing in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph and talking on his cellphone.

          Sciacca had just placed a cellphone call to ( or all people ) Russ Shumate back at his home in Prescott because Sciacca needed OPS2 Paul Musser’s cellphone number.

          He actually asked Shumate…

          “Do you have Paul Musser’s cellphone number? I need it REAL BAD right now”.

          Notice the last two words… “right now”.

          If you compare that recording of Tony Sciacca saying “right now” to the same two words “rat now” heard at 4:13 PM… I would say there is ‘no match’.

          Tony Sciacca has a high, sort of ‘whiny’ voice with a distinct nasal placement.

          The ‘mystery caller’ at 4:13 has a much lower-tone timbre and more of a ‘back-of-the-throat’ vocal placement.

          So no… I don’t think there’s much chance the 4:13 PM mystery caller was, in fact, Tony Sciacca… but I could also be totally wrong.

          Since we still don’t know WHO it was… theory says it could have been anybody.

          I would trade every reputation I’ve ever had for having good ears and be GLAD to be proved ‘totally wrong’ in exchange for knowing who that ‘mystery caller’ really was at 4:13 PM… as well as WHO the target of Eric Marsh’s ‘status report’ was at 4:27 PM.

          Reply

          • Thanks for all of this WTKTT. (And also Gary).

            I should have been clearer regarding the voices. Sorry.

            I wasn’t talking about the “waz yo status” voice.

            I was talking about the one in the conversation with Bravo 33 before that. The one that was questioning Bravo 33 if they knew where Granite Mountain was and what they were doing. I meant to be asking you if you thought THAT voice could have been Tony’s or the Prescotteer Jason Clawson.

            I’ve been meaning to bring this up for awhile now, but the conversation had turned so deeply in other directions and my time has been limited so I let it pass.

            The other person that was “just driving around,” while most likely listening to his radio (for various reasons) was the Wickenburg Fire Chief in that red Wickenburg truck, Ed Temerowski. I tried to find out where he is from, just in case, but I think he’s actually from Wickenburg. And I have no clue what his voice sounds like.

            i don’t think we’re going to find the owner of the hard drawl without somebody chiming in.

            More later on the dozer.

            Reply

          • You wrote:

            “>> PS to WTKTT. Regarding Paul/Justin Moran, I think we, way
            >> back in June when we were re-piecing this, decided that he
            >> did drive the dozer thru Glen Isla and then over that other
            >> street and down onto 89, but nobody saw him do that.

            I don’t remember reaching that conclusion at all.

            My only recollection is that from the moment Calvin ( the steely eyed rocket men ) did his first ‘slowly I turned’ moment and asked us all…

            “Hey… what about the dozer guy? Why was Ranger 58 looking for him?”

            ….it has ( and remains ) a TOTAL MYSTERY where this Paul Morin guy really WAS at the moment 19 men were burning to death 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

            If I’m going brain-dead on this one, myself, remind me WHY we ‘decided’ that he must have ‘driven out’? I really don’t recall making that conclusion,
            not even during the Joy-Collura photo inspired revisit back in June.”

            I just found it. Apparently we got an email from Joy with information from an eye-witness who saw the dozer on the lowboy.

            It starts here:

            “WantsToKnowTheTruth says
            JUNE 16, 2015 AT 6:10 PM

            Copy that on TIME for photo 097 now being probably LATER than 4:15 PM.

            Also copy that on the eyewitness report of dozer being seen ON the LOBOY.

            I’m still ‘catching up’ with everything that was sent… but I find no reason to DOUBT that eye-witness account.”

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-299918

            Reply

            • Yes… but then in the comments AFTER the one you found we ended up ‘hedging’? That’s what I remember.

              I believe we concluded regardless of any eyewitness report about seeing a ‘dozer on a loboy’… that COULD have been someone remembering seeing it go IN. No exact ‘time’ was given.

              Bottom line is that IF the dozer really did come out… WHERE did it go and WHY did dozer operator Paul Morin still end up on the ‘missing persons’ list and someone told Ranger 58 to look for him right along with Granite Mountain?

              From the comments under the one you just posted…

              WTKTT said…
              ———————————————————-
              It’s possible we are looking at a situation where the dozer really DID follow Ball out of there at first… but now maybe Cordes sent it back IN?… as part of this ‘plan’?… but there was ( of course ) no TIME left for that plan to come together.

              There’s still two things that aren’t going to go away here.

              1.) Cory Ball’s statement in his own Unit Log that “he and one other” were told to go scout for a place to put in some emergency dozer line to protect Glen Ilah.

              Exact TIME that assignment was made: Unknown.

              2.) The dozer operator ( assuming Paul Morin ) ended up on the “missings persons” list along with Granite Mountain.

              Exact REASON he was on that list: Still unknown.
              ———————————————————–

              Marti wrote…
              ———————————————————–
              And I’m currently thinking the description of what was going on from Joy’s source may have happened when Cory Ball, after acquiring the ATV, drove BACK in.
              ———————————————————–

              Reply

            • Here’s another place where we discussed the dozer coming out of Glen Ilah with “nobody” seeing it:

              “Marti Reed says
              JUNE 18, 2015 AT 10:59 AM
              …..
              Just had a thought. Maybe it WOULD have made sense for Morin to drive out via Fountainhill. Maybe there was less traffic on it. I mean we’ve seen all those cars pouring out of Lakewood onto 89. And, apparently, most everybody going in was going in on Lakewood also.”

              And you replied:

              “WantsToKnowTheTruth says
              JUNE 18, 2015 AT 4:05 PM

              …but here’s another VERY practical reason why he might have chose Fountainhill instead of Lakewood ( and, hence, ‘crossed paths’ with Ball coming back in on Lakewood and that’s how they actually ‘missed’ each other ).

              If Paul Morin was heading NORTH… perhaps all the way to the ICP where they had been requesting him to come, anyway, earlier in the afternoon… then as he came EAST on Lakewood taking the northerly shortcut to Highway 89 via Fountainhill would have made perfect sense.

              It simply would have been ‘more direct’ for him to do THAT ( if he KNEW he was going to go north )… and it actually would have been an EASIER ‘left turn’ onto Highway 89 for him and that rig than trying to make a similar left turn onto Highway 89 from Lakewood.

              Has to do with the ANGLE in which these roads actually meet Highway 89.

              Left off of Fountainhill would have been MUCH easier for him, in that rig.”

              http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-300148

              OK I”ve gotta go look for a missing credit card.

              Reply

              • Thank you, Marti… yes… I remember this discussion now…. but I still don’t recall us ‘deciding’ that he MUST have driven out.

                Based on that new ‘eyewitness’ account being reported from Joy… we were just ‘playing the scenarios’ to see how they would fit.

                We still can’t say for sure WHERE this dozer ended up.

                I really, really, really wish some set of investigators had nailed this down when THEY had the (best) chance to do so.

                Reply

                • Well between the first linked conversation and the second linked conversation, there was a miles-long set of conversations regarding the various things that happened, including all the handings off of the dozer from so-and-so to so-and-so and such and such.

                  It was pretty clear that nothing had happened to either the dozer or the operator, because they were both put back to work without much of a hitch. It’s just that somebody didn’t know where they were, so they got put on the list, but apparently that was just a mistake.

                  Reply

                  • Marti…

                    This thread is continued with a new parent comment up above.

                    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-310446

                    Next message is along the lines of “If the dozer really DID get REMOVED from the Sesame area… that means whatever plan *might* have been in place for ’emergency dozer line’ was being aborted”.

                    If that is the case… then here comes another “One answer leads to more questions” scenario.

                    If even that ill-conceived ‘plan’ was then being aborted circa 4:15… then why didn’t someone in fire command make sure Granite Mountain was “called off”?

                    There would still have been time for them to save themselves.

                    Reply

  49. Well…we had a very nice day Jeeping on the beach here in sunny Washington, all of my previous experiences in life had been on tightly controlled and grossly overcrowded beaches in southern California or Georgia before this. And up here, almost anything goes on miles and miles of deserted ocean beaches. Wild.

    In addition, it has recently come to my attention that the Free Joy page on my http://www.ourfiregods.com web site is inappropriate because true to my conspiracy theorist roots, I now see a conspiracy just about everywhere I look when it comes to the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire. So…a Free Joy page on my existing website is just not going to cut it.

    Therefore, I am taking suggestions in my email box for what I should call my new website where I will post everything that might get John Dougherty in trouble on this thread with shit bag lawyers, because well…I just don’t care about anything except getting this right. And I was just joking of course about calling it KarenFannTheFascist.

    Although frankly, I have never understood what the problem is with those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew when it comes to my (our) conspiracy theories. There are only two choices here. Pick one.

    1. Eric Marsh (and Jesse Steed) made the single biggest tactical error in the history of wildland firefighter in general and hotshots in particular that no one can understand or explain…all by themselves that led directly to their own horrible deaths and those of their crew while simultaneously breaking almost all of the safety rules at once; or

    2. Darrell Willis et al, put so much pressure on them to be hero’s, make good press, risk a lot to save a lot, and thereby save the crew from the Prescott City Council chopping block because they weren’t revenue neutral or actually making money for the City of Prescott AND someone, or multiple someone’s, in a position of authority over Eric Marsh came up with a last minute Hail Mary Plan to back fire the backside of Yarnell from a hastily constructed dozer line and talked Marsh into buying into it and unfortunately, you have to add everything in Number 1 as well.

    Of course there is a third option that appeal to some. God had a different plan for these men.

    Reply

    • I agree with number 2, including number 1.

      That’s why I ranted down below, comparing this to my brother’s death….

      It still is, as it has been from the very get-go, including BEFORE the deployment, ALL about controlling the narrative.

      And I’m not sure what you should call the website. I’m not sure of the scope. And are you going to invite some of the conversation to migrate there?

      I still consider this “place” to be something of a campfire circle. I guess some people are afraid of our campfire blowing “out of control” also.

      Alas, the Yarnell HIll Wildfire is still burning out of control and all we are doing is to try to watch and document and understand that.

      And, yes, the Northwest Coast beaches are AWESOME!!!

      Reply

      • No…I don’t want any conversation to migrate there, but there may be some things that John either doesn’t want, or can’t have posted on this thread because he may become a target for shit bag lawyers. He has a permanent address and assets to lose. Whereas I am off the rez.

        All I know about posting right now, is the audio and transcript from the hearing that Joy had because Amanda Marsh, the Pfingston’s and others were trying silence and intimidate her, which worked very well I might add. It is amazing what you can do when you are willing to abuse the court system and you are convinced that your personal mission from God is Righteous!

        But I am not going to post anything until after Joy’s punishment is complete because she can’t talk about it until then and figuring out how to post a court audio and getting the transcript done is a time consuming process.

        If John is OK with posting the transcript here, than that is what should be done, I am just trying to plan ahead in case it is too hot to handle for someone with a permanent address and assets. I don’t have either one.

        The main reason I am writing about it, is because if Representative Fann and The Board start getting some push back and realize that everything they are doing is no longer behind closed doors (or will not stay behind closed doors forever) and that someone is watching them, they may cool their jets…I hope.

        Reply

        • In other words, right now I could call the website “FreeJoy” and it would be accurate, but if The Board keeps taking away my God given right to visit any State Park in the nation during normal operating hours…I am going to become…unhappy.

          Reply

          • I mean…God given right may be a stretch, but you are probably able to pick up what I am putting down without taking my rhetoric literally…right?

            Reply

    • I actually didn’t take my logic far enough or I left out a part, take your pick. If you accept Number 2 as being correct, then you add Number 1 except for the, “no one can understand or explain” part because if you accept Number 2, all of us can understand and explain what happened.

      We don’t like it and we wish it would not have happened, but we can understand why it happened and explain it. The GMIHC under the supervision of Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed left the black in a futile attempt to reach the backside of Yarnell BEFORE the fire in an attempt to provide the ground forces necessary to back fire from the dozer line.

      They could not wait for the fire front to pass before attempting to reach the Helms Ranch because then it would have been too late to play a pivotal role in trying to save Yarnell.

      They could not follow they two track around to the Helms Ranch because they believed that would put them in position too late to try and save Yarnell. This was flawed logic because even though the path down the chute was shorter, it would have taken more time to complete.

      They thought they could make it because Eric Marsh timed his descent down the chute, but in his enthusiasm to get his crew in position, he failed to calculate in two critical factors.

      1. He was faster than most crewmembers. In part because of his superior physical conditioning, and partly because he was carrying less gear (I didn’t not see a photo of Marsh even carrying a tool) nor was he carrying all of the gear so many other were which included chain saws and saw packs.

      2. A crew line always moves like a “slinky” even through moderately difficult terrain. With the back two thirds bunching up behind the front one third, and then when the terrain opens up the front one third is able to advance quickly, but then the back one third is still bunched up behind the middle one third and then to maintain the integrity of the crew line, the front one third has to pause, to allow the others to catch up otherwise the crew becomes hopelessly scattered over a long distance and then effectiveness to move and act as a crew is compromised and communication becomes challenging.

      The bottom line is this. The crew was not able to make descent down the chute anywhere near as fast as Eric did, and the fire greatly exceeded his expectations.

      And Eric did not realize the significance of his error until it was too late to take corrective action because the crew was trapped low on a steep slope in a box canyon directly in front of the racing wildfire. And to make matters worse, the fire then hooked around below them and cut off any further descent.

      I believe these errors were then compounded by attempting to prep and deploy their fire shelters in an area that was not survivable. They should have dropped everything, except for their fire shelters and ran for the boulders behind them. I understand it was not a good option, but as I have often stated, if the area you have to deploy your fire shelter is not survivable, you have to run. Because then you will at least die on your feet moving away from the flames.

      Reply

    • Thank You Gary.

      For your efforts.

      For your abilities.

      For your quirks.

      For your IQ that I lack—

      I would love to get to the “bottom” of why I was handled as I have been in a partial way the past annual.

      Thank you for looking into it. Thank you for reaching out to folks who may provide the answers.

      In doing this…I do hope good will is spread and new fresh start beginnings…I have been consistent and realistic with my abilities and capabilities. You are right Gary; they have been documented and watched very closely…plenty of wide eyed investigators watching plus people like WWTKTT catching the state park meeting cannot even follow the laws on getting the minutes up and if they do they are not well put together.

      Mostly, thank you for taking the time out…to get the materials…and to see things from how I perceive it so I can be further educated…Fernanda Santos and Bob Powers are another two who really take time out of their lives to help me comprehend because I am “slow”…this is not a pick your battles kind of situation but it is a battle…there is not a soul I do not like…I always had led my life with motto “worry about your own backyard” …I would say to self “don’t get mixed up in other peoples’ business and create unnecessary enemies. Busybodies make quick enemies, usually because there’s not enough going on to keep them occupied. Stay busy and keep your life full of interesting and engaging activities so you don’t have the time and energy to worry about what your neighbors are doing.” BUT THAT CHANGED when I moved to this here ghost town…and this tragedy…

      If I do not get my apology from the state of Arizona…not only will I never purchase another permit from them but I also will never educate others about their darn permits. Thank you again Gary for not deprecating me and my concern of my constitutional rights/my hikes.

      You are generous spirit.
      See you in mid January 2016…

      Reply

      • Thank you for your generous comments Joy. But there is one thing I do not have and that is a high IQ. I am clever at times and cunning at other times, but the only thing I have always has going for myself on a regular basis is…tenacity.And a certain willingness to take some risks that make many other people…stop.

        But in the meantime, I think we should keep after them because your case reminds me in a very small way of something I read once;

        First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Socialist.

        Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

        Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
        Because I was not a Jew.

        Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.

        Your adversaries in this case have many people to speak for them, I think my job here is to speak for you. And I am going to talk using my favorite medium nowadays…a website, unless they back off and let all of us pay our respects to OUR dead whenever and however we please as long as it is during normal park operating hours and is not illegal..

        I think it was Sonny who said, they ask the world to grieve for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and we did… now their memory belongs to all of us.

        And FYI – You don’t really need an apology from those assholes, you just need them to leave you alone and stop abusing their power and influence to expand the rights of those they like, while restricting the rights of those they don’t like.

        God Bless America!

        Reply

    • Hey Gary,

      I have been away for awhile and now trying to catch up. Of course I am in with choice number 2!

      Reply

      • Right on Norb! I’m glad you made it back to our little on-line dysfunctional family, I was worried about you.

        Reply

  50. **
    ** REPORT RELEASED ON VALLEY FIRE ENTRAPMENT
    ** THAT TOOK PLACE SEPTEMBER 12, 2015
    **
    ** MAYDAY CALL NOW ( FINALLY ) A STANDARD IN WFF RADIO PROTOCOL?

    A pretty detailed report has just been released on the 4 Helitack who were severly burned on the Valley Fire less than one month ago… on September 12, 2015.

    It’s hard to make sense of all the described ‘moves’ these guys made ( they kept moving to try and stay alive )… but it’s pretty clear they got caught with no real safety plan.

    The report ( and location diagrams ) also confirm they were NOT in the ‘boondock’..

    It was JARN ( Just Another Residential Area ) and they were ‘protecting houses’.

    A copy of the actual new report is sitting here..

    http://wildfiretoday.com/documents/GreenSheetValleyFire.pdf

    Has the MAYDAY call finally become standard in the WFF World?

    Let’s hope so.

    From the report itself…
    ————————————————————-
    “May-Day” was transmitted from FC1 and was heard over the radio.
    ————————————————————-

    A good summary of the new report is here…

    Wildfire Today
    Article Title: Report released for entrapment of firefighters on the Valley Fire
    Posted on October 3, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/03/report-released-for-entrapment-of-firefighters-on-the-valley-fire/

    From this ‘summary’ of the report…
    ————————————————————-
    The report lists 13 “Safety issues for review and lessons learned”. Here are the first five:

    1) Crews must utilize L.C.E.S when engaged in firefighting operations.
    2) ALL Ten Standard Fire Orders MUST be obeyed at ALL TIMES.
    3) Personnel MUST wear ALL CAL FIRE APPROVED PPE when engaged in firefighting operation.
    4) Modifying Personal Protective Equipment can alter the protective properties.
    5) Practice and prepare for shelter deployment in adverse and extreme conditions.
    ————————————————————-

    There are no comments yet over at Wildfire Today.

    ** ACTUAL LOCATION

    The report now gives the actual location of the deployment.

    From the report…
    ——————————————————————
    On Saturday, September 12, 2015, at approximately 1323 hours, a helitack crew was dispatched to a vegetation fire as part of an initial attack wildland response. The vegetation fire was reported at 8015 High Valley Road, in Kelseyville, California.
    ——————————————————————

    That address isn’t all that close to where they deployed. They got ‘trapped’ a ways away from there trying to protect houses in another residential area down towards Alder Creek.

    There is a satellite map on page 7 of the official report that has all the relevant locations marked, but no GPS coordinates are given in the report.

    Here are some exact GPS coordinates that matche the LABELS being used on the maps and photographs in this report…

    HEEL OF THE FIRE
    38.844518, -122.758656

    RES1 ( Residence 1 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.844384, -122.759562

    RES2 ( Residence 2 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842297, -122.754503

    RES3 ( Residence 3 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842142, -122.750936

    RES4 ( Residence 4 ) – Center of roof is here…
    38.842318, -122.751998

    DEPLOYMENT SITE
    38.841781, -122.752905

    Just enter any of the latitude, longitude lines above ( complete with comma ) into
    the Search bar of Google Maps and a marker will appear on the map that
    appears showing that exact location.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      I’ve read the report any number of times now and I still cannot figure out what these 4 guys even THOUGHT they were trying to accomplish.

      There is a very detailed account of their MOVEMENTS from the moment they dropped out of the chopper to the moments they were ‘crouching’ around with their fire shelters and running to different places to try and stay alive ( they never actually ‘deployed’ in the accepted sense of the word… they were only trying to use their shelters as ‘heat shields’ while they still moved around )… but despite all the descriptions of their movements…

      …there is really no information about what the fuck these guys were DOING or what they even THOUGHT they were trying to accomplish.

      They leave just ONE GUY ( with just a hand tool? ) at a structure and they told him to ‘defend it’? Are you fucking kidding me?

      With regards to the decisions they were making and the situations they were purposely putting themselves into… all I am seeing is good ‘ol stupidity and good ‘ol DI

      DI = Depraved Indifference ( as the law defines it ).

      What am I missing?

      Reply

      • Two of the four badly burned men even waited so long before even trying to pull their shelters out that the clear-plastic covering that encases the shelter had fucking MELTED onto the outer-protection layer of the shelter itself.

        One guy kept working at it and finally got his shelter usable… but the other guy’s shelter casing was so melted by the time he was even trying to use it that he had to throw it on the ground and then run to some other guy and ‘gang up’ with him and share HIS shelter.

        Even then… all they did was ‘crouch’ in the shelters and then move from place to place trying to stay alive ( from the goat pen to various sides of the steel building and garage and then finally into the middle of the road between the goat-pen and the steel building… after shit in the steel building started EXPLODING.

        What kind of frickin’ TRAINING do these ‘Helitack’ guys get, anyway?

        And who is supposed to make sure the GET that training?

        Anyone?

        Reply

        • California State —- Cal Fire They should know better.

          The 13 Safety Violations covers it—What the fuck were they doing there in the First place?????????????????

          Helitack and Hand Crews are Wild Land Crews not Structure Urban interface crews. They build line not protection.

          WE have turned a corner into a dead end with hand crews
          and need to reassess the uses of such crews in Urban Interface. Build Line and Contain and Control.
          I will say again to a Wild Land Fire Fighter Hand crew
          ——-Structures are just a part of the fuel bed——
          Build line to contain and control the Fire. Trees Brush Grass and Structures are either inside or outside that Line.
          When a fire Happens its to late to try and save Individual structures with Hand Crews. Only Engines with lots of water can do that with DEFENSIABLE SPACE.

          Reply

            • There are obvious similarities to the Yarnell Hill tragedy here… with regards to piss-poor decision making… but there is a HUGE similarity to the Twisp Fire tragedy.

              A RESIDENTIAL AREA… with defined ROADS leading to houses that were not ‘fire-wised’ in any way.

              The ONLY ingress/egress into/outof that area should have been a fire command vehicle warning everyone to ( as Chief Don Waller said in Twisp ) “Get out NOW or you are going to DIE”.

              There are even radio captures saying on one should be in that area .

              Yet… we end up with FFs in the area, anyway… either eventually dying horrible deaths or needing to be saved from same.

              There is a COMMON THEME here.

              It really does come back to ‘policy’ and ‘expectations’ and ( as Gary has pointed out over and over ) the FAILINGS of this ‘Unified Command’ approach to fighting the new Urban Interface Wildfires.

              The coffee is brewing ( hot ).
              People are DYING.
              It’s time for a LOT of ‘Fire Gods’ to wake up and SMELL IT.

              Reply

              • I agree with everything you said except I do want to point to the drum I have been beating all along. In that although there are similarities on the Yarnell Hill Fire to probably almost any disaster fire, I maintain the Yarnell Hill Fire was in a category all by itself and off all of the known charts.

                I think there are a lot of similarities between the Esperanza Fire, the Twisp Fire and now the Valley Fire.

                I think there are a lot of similarities between the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire and the South Canyon Fire.

                But I really do think the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll.

                Reply

                • OK. I’ll bite.

                  Why do you think “the Yarnell Hill is above and beyond all others and not just because of the unusually high death toll”?

                  I’m not asking to be adversarial. I just truly want to know.

                  Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2015 at 7:21 am

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> I will say again to a Wild Land Fire Fighter Hand crew
            >> ——-Structures are just a part of the fuel bed——

            And in the case of THIS ‘Valley Fire” incident ( even moreso than the Twisp Fire or Yarnell fatalities )… you can “certainly say that again”.

            You can see how absurd the situation was just by looking at the satellite photo in the ‘Valley Fire’ report itself.

            When I jumped into ‘Google Maps’ to get the exact GPS coordinates for all the ‘Residences’ and the ‘goat pens’ and the ‘steel buildings’ they were referencing in the report… I had trouble even FINDING the roofs of some of these things because they were all so embedded in the TREES there.

            Totally indefensible structures… with the trees coming RIGHT up to the houses… but there they were… defending them.

            One of the parts I don’t get is that there was, in fact, a ROAD leading right to this place where they all ended up trying to survive.

            It’s the same ROAD that was used by the two guys in the pickup truck who came to rescue them… and probably saved them from death.

            That ROAD connect right to ‘Bottle Creek Road’ to the east.

            But these guys came “Over the river ( Alder creek ) and through the woods… to grandma’s house” from the WEST, where they had been dropped near the heel of the fire.

            They should have STAYED THERE ( at the heel of the fire ).

            But no… some crewboss ( Identified only as FC1 )… then did the following…

            1) He went ‘cross country’ to the EAST to ‘scout ahead’ and see how they could get near the structures he wanted to ‘defend’.

            2) He ‘called back’ to the others and ordered them to ‘bump up’ in the direction he had gone… on some deer trail.

            3) The men followed… lost their ‘eyes on the fire’.

            4) There was no lookout, no planned escape route, and they had no idea what roads or trails were to the WEST where they were headed towards those structures.

            5) They ( apparently ) had NO MAPS and were not familiar enough with the area as they headed off into unburned fuel to know what all their ‘escape route’ options even were.

            Sound familiar?

            In the end… they just huddled in the middle of that road between the goat pen and the steel building, hoping to survive.

            The guys who came to rescue them were taking some ‘heat’… but they simply drove their damn pickup down the road towards where they were… honked the horn when they saw them… and then they just got into the back of the pickup and it was a short drive to safety.

            There was still ‘heat’ on that road… and the report says one of the guys stood with them in the back of the pickup holding their shelters over them as the pickup drove out.

            All that proves is that despite the heat on the road… it was still survivable to travel even after they had been ‘deploying’ out there by the goat pen.

            They just ( apparently ) didn’t KNOW where that road really went and made no attempt to ‘escape’ that way.

            They just waited for the pickup to come and honk its horn.

            No situational awareness.
            No full grasp of what could happen in that fuel type, under those drought conditons.
            No maps.
            No lookout.
            Poor choices for deploying when the time came.

            Again… sound familiar?

            Reply

            • Followup…

              ALL of those ‘RESx’ structures being referred to in the report were SO ’embedded in the fuel’… that I can’t actually fully guarantee the GPS I posted for the ‘final entrapment’ residence location.

              I believe I got it right… but that residence and property where they ended up trying to burn to death is SO obscured by the trees that it was hard to be 100 percent accurate about where this ‘goat pen’ and ‘garden’ and ‘steel building’ really were.

              I believe I got it right down to 10 or 20 yards or so… but that entire place was so much ‘part of the fuel’ that I still can’t be 100 percent sure of that posted GPS coordinate.

              Reply

              • By the way… just thought I’d point something out.

                It’s been more than 24 hours since Bill Gabbert posted his article ( and a link to his copy of the report ) over at his ‘Wildfire Today’ site…

                http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/10/03/report-released-for-entrapment-of-firefighters-on-the-valley-fire/

                …but there is still not ONE SINGLE COMMENT about it at the bottom of that ariticle ( even though it has been fully open for comment since it was posted ).

                No comments from his readership.
                Not one.
                Zero. Zip. Nada.

                “Nothing to see here…. move along… move along…”

                Reply

                • Either that or many responders like me have been blocked from his little fiefdom. But his little experiment seems to only draw a few responses a short term of 3 or 4 days then they move on to something else.

                  Reply

              • I think you’re pretty much there.

                It pretty much looks like what I’m reading in the report.

                Only thing I can’t see is the “driveway” the rescuers drove up to get to the Deployment Site. I think they were bushwacking it in the truck. I think 15185 Bottle Rock Road is actually Residence 4. For what it’s worth.

                Reply

                • And, ps, I’ve been sitting here thinking, it’s really fortunate, especially for those two “FC”s that nobody got killed on this one.

                  Because I think they came pretty close.

                  Reply

                  • Yea… I would say when you are already exposed to so much heat that it has MELTED your own PPE equipment to the point where it is unusable…

                    …you are damn lucky to live to talk about it.

                    Reply

      • I’m with you, WTKTT.

        I finally got this all mapped in Google Earth, which is what I’m most familiar with and where I have all my stuff mapped (not online tho).

        None of it makes any sense whatsoever, at least to me.

        They’re walking through all of that stuff, “looking for structures to defend”??????????????????????

        And then they leave one firefighter alone at a house to defend it????? With what?????

        And FC2 ends up to the south of them around two other structures?? With, apparently “FF6” with him.

        And this is a helitack crew??? Wandering and bush-whacking cross-country on foot through that burning area looking for structures to defend with no Engines???????

        Something’s seriously wrong here. But, no worry. They’re all now heroes and all is well.

        It used to be that on wildlandfire.com, stuff like this actually got talked about. No longer. Not a word anywhere.

        It’s really mind-boggling.

        Reply

        • I’m gonna post a few things I found to help orient myself, that you might find helpful, also, if you haven’t already found them.

          “Lake County residents tell of futile effort to halt Valley fire at its start”

          http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4483703-181/lake-county-residents-tell-of?page=3?gallery=4483828

          “In the hours before wind-driven flames erupted into a firestorm that turned the eyes of the world on rural Lake County, a strong scent of smoke on the northern flank of Cobb Mountain caught Jim Fulkerson’s attention.

          Going out to investigate, Fulkerson, who lives part-time on the 8000 block of High Valley Road near Bottle Rock Road in the community of Cobb, found several patches of grass burning in a the field near a neighbor’s home about 200 yards away.”

          The article begins with a photo of “CalFire investigators collect information at the residence where the Valley Fire started on High Valley Rd. Photo taken on Tuesday, September 15, 2015 in Cobb, California. (BETH SCHLANKER/ The Press Democrat)”

          It’s the house at 8015 High Valley Road.

          “The firefight started there, with another neighbor, Troy Nelson, 40, grabbing a garden hose and frantically, fruitlessly trying to squirt water on the quickly expanding fire.”
          …

          ““The winds were whirling. The winds were just outrageous,” Zimmerman, 61, said Tuesday. “You could just tell ‘We’re in trouble,’ and it kept burning toward his house.”
          …….

          “One of four people who own the house where the fire appears to have started, Jim Pinch, said he and his wife were visiting family when the fire broke out and are “as much in the dark” as anybody. He said they still have not been able to return home, though both his and the home where Nelson lives survived.”
          ………………..

          “Waiting for firefighters to arrive, Nelson took out is cellphone and recorded some video of the fire.

          Within minutes, the flames had reached a nearby house, its contents exploding in the heat, likely from ammunition stored inside, Nelson said.

          “That house is gone,” Nelson says on the video, predicting the fire’s spread. “There’s nothing to stop it. I’ve hiked these hills so far back here. There’s just rolling hills back this direction.

          At one point, the fire briefly reversed direction and came back toward Bennett’s home, though it, too ultimately was saved. Nelson was still on the scene when the first fire engine arrived. He saw a helicopter land not far off to initiate an attack on the blaze. It was likely the Boggs Mountain Helitack Crew 104. Four of its members would be overrun by the fire before 4 p.m., forcing the men into emergency tent-like shelters. They all suffered second-degree burns and remain under treatment at a Sacramento hospital.

          Nelson said he wanted to stay until he knew his landlord’s property was safe, but said he had to go when manzanita bushes opposite the driveway ignited.

          “I peeled out of there, to tell the truth,” Nelson said. “The fire was coming up on us. When they caught, the fire was like 30 feet tall and we had to go.”
          …………………

          So I’m sitting here, after writing the above, thinking, hmmmmm, apparently an engine had arrived on scene, but apparently the helitack crew took off on foot cross-country to “protect structures” in the midst of that kind of a fire without the engine?????
          “

          Reply

        • Another thing that might be helpful is this:

          “MAP: Damage assessment details extent of Valley fire destruction”

          http://www.lakeconews.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=43473:-map-damage-assessment-details-extent-of-valley-fire-destruction&catid=1:latest&Itemid=197

          “Officials have released damage inspection information that maps the destruction the Valley fire has left behind in south Lake County’s communities.”

          I haven’t had time to dig into that, and it took me a long time just to find out where the fire started, and where the deployment happened, but it might be useful to look on that to see what actually burned in that area where the helitack crew was wandering on foot around, thinking they could defend houses without an engine.

          Reply

          • Oh, and by the way, I found that link in a wildlandfire.org thread regarding defensible space.

            http://hotlist.wildlandfire.com/threads/15974-Defensible-Space/page4

            The poster brought it up and said, “I just came across an online Damage Inspection Map for the Valley Fire. It is sobering to see the extent of the loss, and also, when you turn on the aerial photos, to see how many of the damaged homes lacked good defensible space clearance.”

            It was a good thread, but, it still just boggles my mind that all these firefighters are, apparently, not even talking about the decision-making that got this helitack crew into an almost fatal situation in that obviously indefensible space.

            Reply

        • Oh, and just for kicks, I guess, here is the CalFire Structure Defense Guide, all compacted in a little, simplified, four-page PDF:

          http://www.wildlandfire.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/2015-05-29_5567afce6e532_CALFIREStructureDefenseChecklist2.pdf

          It starts out with this:

          SURVIVAL
          • Initial Assessment: can you survive here? If not, LEAVE NOW!
          • Is there a Safety Zone nearby? If not, LEAVE NOW! (IRPG)
          • Do you have a viable Escape Route?
          • What is the decision point at which you will leave based on fire behavior and rate of
          spread?
          • Is there a Temporary Refuge Area (TRA) on site? If not, LEAVE NOW!
          – Preplanned area for immediate, temporary refuge
          — Use of fire shelter should not be necessary
          – Is there a viable Escape Route to the TRA or Safety Zone?
          • Is “Prep and Go” tactic an option?
          • Do you have communications with your supervisor and adjoining forces?
          • If safety issues cannot be mitigated, LEAVE NOW!

          It’s very graphically well-designed.

          Reply

            • Marti… THANK YOU for all those links above.

              Incredibly relevant stuff… ALL of it.

              And no… I hadn’t seen that ‘eyewitness account’ yet.
              It adds a LOT of detail that was NOT included in the
              (cough, cough) ‘official report’.

              Yes… it does appear there were ‘Engines’ on the scene even BEFORE these guys went “over the river ( Alder Creek ) and through the woods to grandma’s house”.

              Also… that ‘whishbone’ shaped road which ended up the one the guys in the pickup used to just drive to where these guys were dying, pick them up, and drive them out IS there in ‘Google Earth’..

              It’s just that this area where they were was SO heavy with trees and the structures they were choosing to try and defend were SO MUCH just ‘part of the fuel’ that it’s hard to see both the road, the goat pen, the garden and the steel building even with satellite photos.

              But that road IS there… embedded in the trees.

              You just have to look really, really close to see it.

              Reply

              • Yer welcome WTKTT!!

                When I wrote that part about the road, I hadn’t looked at the aerial/map in the Report. I was just trying to guess.

                I did later look, with the aid of the map, in various “historical” versions of the GoogleEarth image, and was able to pick it out. The whole area reminds me of roads on the Navajo Reservation, various roads taking various routes in and out and around the brush. Except this is all in and out and around and UNDER trees. Which were, at the time, OBVIOUSLY on fire.

                I looked at a bunch of YouTube helitack videos yesterday morning, wondering, “is this what helitack crews actually DO???????”

                There’s a photo of that crew in 2014, working with a hose on another fire. Obviously, that hose was probably connected to an engine. And they’re on a real road. So they do do that kind of stuff, apparently.

                I’m currently thinking they were walking in there behind the fire-front. That kinda sorta fits the whole “check structures after the fire front has passed through.” But it doesn’t fit any of the CalFire rules of “if there’s no safe zone etc etc etc GET OUT!!!!!!”

                And then, after they picked their way over to the steel building/goat pen area, the fire had looped around to the area below them and then changed direction, because of the slope, and burned uphill towards them.

                But six firefighters on foot wandering off on this whole “check structures after the fire front passes through” journey without any engine support “looking for more structures to defend” (with what???) still just seems a “fool’s errand” kind of thing.

                Reply

  51. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ACTUALLY THINKS
    ** THE DEPLOYMENT LOCATION IS A ‘GRAVE SITE’.

    I know this was discussed below… but in case anyone missed it… it absolutely needs to be pointed out AGAIN. This one statement from Karen Fann ( in one of her email responses to Gary Olson ) lies at the heart of all the consternation regarding ‘access’ to the deployment site.

    —————————————————————————————————
    From Karen Fann: Today ( October 1, 2015 ) at 6:55 AM
    To: gary olson

    …The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites;
    —————————————————————————————————

    State Representative Karen Fann ( and prominent member of the Granite Mountain Memorial Site PUBLIC Advisory Board ) even took the time to put EMPHASIS QUOTE MARKS around the word “grave”.in her email.

    Anyone who actually believes that piece of ground 640 yards west of the Boulder Springs Ranch contains any “graves” seriously needs an INTERVENTION.

    I mean it. That’s just “bat-crap crazy talk”.

    Reply

    • Yes, as I told Bob down below, I certainly intend to address that issue and I hope others do as well in their own emails to Representative Fann. I do think however, that her quotation marks were met to say something like, “even thought we know the area does not technically contain graves, we (Amanda Marsh, the Pfinston’s etc.) consider the ground to be so sacred that it may as well hold graves because we view just as though if does and believe it should be treated with the same respect and at the same level.

      Which of course highlights just how screwy and disconnected from reality their thinking really is. I don’t really want to take on the added expense of another website just to bitch about how unhappy I am because it will interfere with my ATV gas money…but in the end http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com may be my only option.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post October 2, 2015 at 3:55 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> Yes, as I told Bob down below, I certainly intend to address that
        >> issue and I hope others do as well in their own emails to
        >> Representative Fann. I do think however, that her quotation marks
        >> were met to say something like, “even thought we know the area
        >> does not technically contain graves, we (Amanda Marsh, the
        >> Pfinston’s etc.) consider the ground to be so sacred that it may
        >> as well hold graves because we view just as though if does and
        >> believe it should be treated with the same>respect and at the
        >> same level.

        So what you are suggesting is that, when State Representative Karen Fann just reported back to you ( in writing ) that she ( and others ) consider that land just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch to contain (quote) graves (unquote)… that if she had been speaking it to you she would have also raised her arms and used her two ‘peace sign’ fingers to make those ‘quote marks’ in the AIR while she said the word “graves”.

        I believe the origin of that ( when both speaking and in writing it ) is called the good ‘ol ( WINK, WINK ) ( NOD, NOD ).

        In other words… it’s just shorthand for writing…

        —————————————————————————————————
        From Karen Fann: Today ( October 1, 2015 ) at 6:55 AM
        To: gary olson

        …The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample
        on the ( WINK, WINK ) grave ( NOD, NOD ) sites;
        —————————————————————————————————

        I feel so much better now ( NOT ).

        I agree with your translation of this possible ( WINK, WINK ) graves ( NOD, NOD ) moment… but it could also be translated as the following…

        “Any SANE person knows there are no actual GRAVES out there… but for the sake of achieving the goal of locking down the deployment site for access only to people WE say are allowed to be there… it is serving our purposes to treat the place as if there WERE actual GRAVES out there.”

        Reply

  52. Reply to Marti Reed post on September 30, 2015 at 12:33 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thinking further abut this, I’m thinking that, when that language was inserted:
    >>
    >> “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    >> PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”
    >>
    >> it was intended to mean the Board was authorized to secure the necessary
    >> permissions for them and people working with them to access the still-owned-
    >> by-ArizonaTrustLands area of the site, which required permitting to access, and
    >> probably also permission from private landholders, in order to survey and think
    >> out the design and the access issues. They talked about that in that meeting
    >> earlier this spring.

    Marti.. this is important… and I didn’t want you to think it got ‘lost in the weeds’.

    ** THE SHORT STORY

    You *MAY* be absolutely right.

    There *MAY* be that kind of ‘simple’ explanation why something like this was being ‘added’ to the original Bill only after it had been read TWICE on the House Floor.

    Only the person who ( all by herself ) proposed it as an ‘amendment’ and thought it rose to that level of importance to make it one of the only ‘required actions’ for the Board could say exactly WHY she was going to that much trouble to add this… and WHY that specific language was chosen.

    State Representative Karen Fann.

    ** THE LONG STORY

    Devil’s advocate time ( which, of course, will need a ‘reality check’ ).

    I don’t think that’s why this ‘language’ was inserted into that propose LAW.

    It’s TOO SIMPLE of an explanation.

    If we are talking about someone ( Fann alone? ) suddenly realizing that various ‘permissions’ were going to be needed from ( for a while ) ‘Arizona Land Department’ and then ( eventually ) “Arizona Parks Department’ for ‘individuals’ associated with the BOARD itself to ‘access the site’… then that does NOT rise to the level of requiring a full-blown frickin’ AMENDMENT and a new top-level ‘duties and responsibilities’ entry for the legislation itself.

    We are talking about just a ‘housekeeping’ task here.

    Of COURSE if ‘individuals’ working for the Board needed to get out there… they would need ‘permission’ from either Arizona Land or Arizona Parks.

    But those kinds of ‘permissions’ for ‘official purpose’ were already CODIFIED into the original Land Closure order itself. There would be NO NEED to start amending HB2624 for that (same) purpose.

    Arizona Land Department had already thought of that when they CLOSED the land and it was built into their order that there would be other ‘official reasons’ why SOME people might need to access the site. All those ‘some official people’ had to do was ASK.

    So that ‘task’ would have been so ‘mundane’ and ‘housekeeping’ level that it defies reason why someone would have thought to make that a top-level ‘responsibility’ of a proposed new Arizona PUBLIC Board.

    The fact that it was GOING to be an official ‘Arizona PUBLIC Board’ created by LAW means that individuals working with/for that Board would ‘automatically’ be rising to the level of ‘other officials’ that might need ‘permission’ to bypass the Arizona Land Department closure order.

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    Notice that is also says ‘INDIVIDUALS’ and not ‘THE PUBLIC’.

    That ‘language’ is vague enough to accomplish the task of ( perhaps ) ‘locking down access to the memorial’ and only ‘securing permissions’ ( from Arizona State Parks or whoever owns the land ) for ‘select individuals’ ( say…’family members and firefighters’ ) to ‘visit the memorial.

    So regardless of what the ORIGINAL intent of that ‘insertion’ was… ( or regardless of what Representative Fann might even, today, SAY it was for )… it’s still obvious that what some ( all? ) members of this Board BELIEVE it means is that they DO have the right to decide what ‘access’ to the ‘State Park’ will look like.

    Karen Fann herself was the first one to put this ‘on the table’ at one of the first PUBLIC meetings of this PUBLIC Board.

    From the minutes of the 11/24/14 meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board…

    —————————————————————–
    Representative Fann stated that another thing that needs to be mentioned
    is who should be able to visit the memorial. Potentially we are dealing with
    hundreds if not thousands of people and it becomes a liability issue, not to
    mention the need for trails and bathrooms. We would then have to get into
    issues of access and ADA laws. Another thought is whether the site
    should be restricted to firefighters and family members to avoid these types
    of issues.

    One Board member ( Darrell Willis ) stated there will be no way to keep
    people out of the area. Regardless of how far they have to hike in to pay
    respect to the fallen… people will still go
    ——————————————————————

    So there is Karen Fann ( herself ) stating out loud and in PUBLIC…

    “another thing that needs to be mentioned is who should be able to visit the memorial”.

    Really?

    So WHERE does Karen Fann herself think the Board is even getting the ‘authoritay’ for that to be ( in her words ) something that MUST be discussed?

    Could it be from the amendment she, herself, made sure ‘creeped’ into the legislation?

    Namely…

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY
    PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    Reply

    • Thank you, WTKTT. Well said.

      I think you’re right.

      And I think the fact that I was thinking that way makes me wonder whether or not it was written in that vague and misleading manner mistakenly or intentionally. Ahem.

      Like I said, there’s a WHOLE lot of double-speak in all of this.

      Also, her use of “”graves”” in her email to Gary underscores this. Everybody and their little brother knows that those crosses are going to mark spots that are not graves.

      And, yes, we have memorials to those who died in auto crashes and such all over Albuquerque, also. In PUBLIC places. I can still walk right up to them and photograph them if I FEEL like it.

      Those families who were so outraged by the “cover-up” that was the SAIR seem to have absolutely no problem creating a cover-up of their own.

      I was so disgusted by all those sleezy comments written in the comments sections of just about every article in the Daily Courier about the families fighting for compensation and the lawsuits, that it never really dawned on me that some of them might actually have been true.

      I’m starting to side with them.

      Except for it’s still not about the money.

      It’s about the power to control the narrative. And also those 350 PUBLIC acres.

      And Karen Fann is also “wrong” about the taxpayer dollars. The fact that that $500k came out of the General Fund does not mean they are not taxpayer dollars. They’re just taxpayer dollars that are being put to a different use than they would have been otherwise.

      And the FACT that they are denying access to Gary, of all people, while allowing access to that Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory group (including the leader who is critically interested in DEPLOYMENT SITES and how POORLY fire-fighters may be CHOOSING them), along with whoever else wanted to come with them, puts the whole LIE regarding access to “fire-fighters” right square flat out on the table.

      This whole thing is a carefully designed and narrated SCAM. And may have ALWAYS been, given the timelines of it.

      And, given how Arizona State Parks is BY LAW framed to do what it is supposed to do, possibly illegal.

      So, I’m also looking at Sue Black in this whole thing. Her ambition is obviously getting in the way of her knowing how her own frickin agency is, BY LAW, supposed to be managed.

      There I’ve said it.

      Signed, Marti L. Reed
      A Proud Member of the Pesky Public

      Reply

      • PS

        My brother, an Eagle Scout, got himself killed (and almost a few other people) in the Jemez Mountains just northwest of Tent Rocks.

        It was a HUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUGE very big deal.

        All over the news and the newspapers for weeks.

        His Memorial Service was standing room only in a church that holds a thousand people.

        The place where he landed, after falling 300 feet, on his head, is a “sacred spot” for my family. We never even thought about bothering to put up a Memorial, much less closing it off to the Public. I mean, like, REALLY???

        Maybe we should have. With a kiosk that narrated what happened, and could serve as a “Lessons Learned” spot to teach Boy and Girl Scouts, etc, why not to walk too far out on a sandstone ledge just because your Scoutmaster yells up at you to tell you to “hurry up and get down, we need to get ready to go!!!”

        My brother and his patrol decided to choose a “short cut” in order to “hurry up and get down.” It turned out to not be a shortcut, but a deadly mistake instead.

        But if we had decided to do Memorial, it would have been a wasted effort to close off that piece of land, where his shattered skull’s blood sunk into that “sacred” ground, to the PUBLIC.

        But then, my mom and dad and I were not desperately trying to control the narrative of what happened. And neither was the Scoutmaster, who — if this had happened in THIS day and age — would have been sued up the wazoo for it.

        Because we knew that my brother’s death was caused by my brother’s mistake, not the Scoutmaster’s, even though what the Scoutmaster had yelled up to him may have been a contributing factor. TRUTH.

        That’s why I”m talking about how the goal is not the dollars, and not even the land.

        It’s control of the narrative. And we’ve seen PLENTY of THAT.

        Reply

        • Oh, and PS, if one of the other younger Scouts in his Patrol, would have ALSO gotten killed, maybe WE would have been sued up the wazoo, also.

          I don’t think that would have happened THEN, but, from my experience as a Girl Scout Leader in the 1990’s, I’m sure it would have happened NOW.

          Reply

    • WTKTT said :That ‘language’ is vague enough to accomplish the task of ( perhaps ) ‘locking down access to the memorial’ and only ‘securing permissions’ ( from Arizona State Parks or whoever owns the land ) for ‘select individuals’ ( say…’family members and firefighters’ ) to ‘visit the memorial.”

      And I say, “That’s right and I do not intend to lose sight of the fact that “family members and firefighters” to these people mean “family members, firefighters, politicians, miscellaneous officials that have nothing to do whatsoever with the technical aspects of the fire or it’s aftermath, and all of the above GUESTS and anybody any of these people feel like giving carte blanche access to the site just as THE BOARD will be giving them.”

      This entire thing “STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN” and it had better get fixed so I can visit the new Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park with whoever I want to, whenever I want to (between the hours of 0600 and 2200 hours which is normal operational hours for a park) because I am a United States Citizen and for no other reason or…or…or…I am going to be…unhappy. And build another nearly useless website so I can bitch about it.

      I have acquired more than my fair share of “hot buttons” at this point in my life, and one of them is public officials using the power given to them by We The People to expand the rights of those they like, while at the same time restricting the rights of those they don’t like.

      And FYI – I have learned recently that this IM thread or blog or what I call our little experiment in social media has power and influence FAR beyond what I thought it did. I know now there are people who are reading this blog and are being influenced by what is written here who I would NEVER had suspected care about whatever is said here.

      Guess what? We The People here on this blog have some real power and I think we should use it to guarantee me access to the new state park in Arizona. Which is a goal for this thread I never saw coming. Did you?

      We are EVOLVING. (Silence Of The Lambs)

      Reply

  53. Well…I have broken another vow. I am not going to get my response to Representative Fann done tonight after all…”this is a very complicated case, Maude. You know, a lotta ins, a lotta outs, a lotta what-have-yous. And, uh, a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head.” (The Big Lebowski, that is a special quote for our reader in the UK) and I want to get it right, or at least as good as I can make it.

    Plus, I have been working on translating the court recording tonight without any success, so it is going to be awhile before you see that on my new webpage Free Joy. But it will be there eventually. God Willing!

    Reply

  54. well, at first I wondered why Ben Palm’s would be inducted as fire chief for Yarnell but since then knowing that he is a great EMT I have changed my opinion. Yarnell does not really need firefighters. After all, more than 60% of the people in Yarnell are beyond 60 years of age. Then consider the very tiny lightning strike we have at least ten able bodied firefighters in the Yarnell Fire Department yet they were unable and unwilling to go that Friday or that Saturday to put out a small fire in the boulders that destroyed a lot of the town. Allowed it to turn into a wildfire. Yes, we are better off with just an EMT experienced fire department with little experience in firefighting and putting out small fires. I am not going to second guess their motives for not taking care of business. It would be nice to know the real reasons why they allowed this fire to become a major tragedy both to human lives and the destruction of almost 1/2 the town and a number of residents to Peeples Valley. From my point of view, it certainly seems that professional investigators including the FBI would want to know why so many young heroes lives were allowed to be destroyed.

    Reply

  55. musical intermission for those who cannot read or engage current IM topic or if you just need a break…

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RVYRGggQww&feature=youtu.be

    this person really captured the FEEL of the fence and all who went there. such quality loyal dedication…thank you Ered. Since we cannot see the other fence…enjoy the video.

    I think the comment of people stepping where they died is lame being its fenced because I have perimeter cameras and sound recorders every where I am and all my areas I call SPACE to me and if they had spypoint mini live 4gv or any of this line like I do you can be anywhere to view area you are watching…I love my smart control video of another professional system that is tied right to law enforcement but had to do increase cameras because of certain ones in that area and the end result of how I have been addressed. I guarantee I am documenting and keeping the information safe way away from me because of what Charley Moseley (h tt p://www.rolltide.c o m/sports/c-xctrack/spec-rel/050114aab.html) told me and him (ht tp ://ww w.cblawyers.c o m/attorneys/james-belanger/) and EVEN my neighbor down the street retired YCSO sheriff told me. I also want to make Fann very aware installing proper fencing around the deployment site and signage and statutes and these cameras will stop such actions and if found in there they can be criminally charged to the fullest degree. Yet to not let a person go in the bowl to experience it…Zack Ashoor who was on the Arizona board for Respiratory and knew these men well and he said to look down on the bowl was nothing in comparison to actually be at the fence. Sorry Fann you cannot arrest him…another casualty after the fire. I finally found the person I had maps with on topic of my start research to how many died in aftermath of fire…I really really want to get my solo backpack pioneering hike in just me and the dirt but in Tucson right now…so soon I will work on it being Russ Reason’s symptoms parallel Sonny’s current situation. You are correct Gary. You did misjudge Fann. I have known a lot of ladies who know her that would of been appalled to read this past weeks’ comments by you because Fann helped homeowners…the homeless…and the loved ones of the men and my only unease is my rights being robbed as it was done…and her name was on original affidavit I was served and the last Yarnell meeting I saw her at she gave me a side way scorned look yet was cordial to Sonny. I do not mind if she has a view where she rather not know me but I just want my constitutional rights back…

    Reply

  56. Whoops, still too many hidden links and so I am going to repost again so it doesn’t disappear to the moderation black hole. Hopefully the other two will be deleted.

    Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: Karen Fann

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: Karen Fann

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: Karen Fann

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

    • And I know that many of you are having a hard time containing yourselves at most, if not all of the excuses cited by Representative Fann as reasons why good citizens should not be allowed near the deployment site, but she has been listening to the wrong people.

      I hope I address most of them in the reply I am working on to her, but the good news is that she reads her emails and responds, so that’s a start.

      Reply

      • Gary Please explain to her that the Deployment site is not a Grave site.

        Refer to the Rattle Snake memorial or the South mountain Memorial where people walk thru the Crosses and reflect on what happened. Their are Trails that go right next to each Cross its a Marker of where they Died. From my hart it is not where they are now nor is it their resting place. It is a place of education. I am Proud the Rattle Snake Memorial has educated so many Fire Fighters and drown so many Citizens to reflect on what we as Fire Fighters have Sacrificed to learn and teach others.

        I got in pretty deep there so Ill Stop.

        Reply

        • Yes explaining to her that the deployment site does not have any “graves” there by any definition is just one of the things on my list. I am sure you will come up with more just as many other people will. The mine where my father died as a hero was never a grave either. Just none of the public areas where countless others have died are graves either. As somebody said earlier on this thread, they don’t set aside highways as memorials were no one can go just because an entire car load of kids die there. I am getting in too deep too so I will stop as well and go back to working on my response. I am going to EXPLAIN a lot of things to Representative Fann. Most of all, I want to go to the deployment site without being molested by the Board’s posse.

          Reply

      • Gary Olson post on October 1, 2015 at 8:23 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> And I know that many of you are having a hard time containing
        >> yourselves at most, if not all of the excuses cited by Representative
        >> Fann as reasons why good citizens should not be allowed near
        >> the deployment site, but she has been listening to the wrong people.

        State Representative Karen Fann actually STATED in an open PUBLIC meeting of this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Board that there might be THREE big PLUSES for keeping the general ( taxpaying ) public away from the memorial would be threefold…

        1. Less concern about liability issues.
        2. Less concern about those pesky handicapped people expecting to be accommodated ( Sic; ADA – Americans With Disabilities Act )
        3. Less concern about bathrooms and things getting ‘messy out there’.

        See the post down below that is taken directly from the PUBLIC meeting of this PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Board that was held on November 24, 2014.

        That is when Karen Fann became the FIRST Board member to put the idea ‘on the table’ that they should limit access to the Memorial to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’.

        Reply

      • It might also be useful to ask her when they’re going to start complying with Arizona State Open Records Laws by posting the minutes to all of their meetings, finally.

        Just sayin’.

        Thanks, Gary. I really appreciate this.

        Reply

        • According to the meeting minutes that HAVE been published so far… the answers to many of the questions being asked right now SHOULD already be known to the members of the Yarnell Memorial Site Board.

          Amanda Marsh was supposed to have finished her (unsupervised) little polling of the family members and reported the results back to the Board either before or during their last scheduled meeting back on September 18, 2015.

          Something tells me the only ‘sane’ compromise will be that yes… the PUBLIC will be allowed to get NEAR the actual deployment site… but the entire area of the site itself WILL be off-limits to the PUBLIC.

          In other words… no ‘access among the crosses’ as Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney called it during their July meeting.

          If it ends up any MORE restrictive than that… I hope they are prepared for the shit to hit the fan.

          Reply

          • Yep.

            And, to be perfectly honest, I’m totally fine with the deployment site being “fenced.”

            I mean, if you really want to see the Deployment Site, when it was actually still a Deployment Site, just look at the 250 or so photos that were taken during the SAIT “investigation” of it.

            God knows I did, the entire month of December, 2013, despite the fact that everybody else I knew was having fun for the holidays.

            Reply

          • On the other hand, if everything was that simple and squeaky clean,

            WHY are the minutes being Withheld from the PUBLIC????

            Reply

    • In true ‘politician style’… she didn’t even answer the question you asked.

      Karen Fann was the FIRST Board member to actually make the suggestion, early on, that access to the memorial site should be limited to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’.

      From the PUBLIC minutes of the 11/24/14 meeting of the PUBLIC Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board…

      —————————————————————–
      Representative Fann stated that another thing that needs to be mentioned
      is who should be able to visit the memorial. Potentially we are dealing with
      hundreds if not thousands of people and it becomes a liability issue, not to
      mention the need for trails and bathrooms. We would then have to get into
      issues of access and ADA laws. Another thought is whether the site
      should be restricted to firefighters and family members to avoid these types
      of issues.

      One Board member ( Darrell Willis ) stated there will be no way to keep
      people out of the area. Regardless of how far they have to hike in to pay
      respect to the fallen… people will still go
      ——————————————————————

      “To avoid these types of issues”

      The way those minutes are written… it is almost as if Karen Fann was suggesting that one of the big PROS of saying ‘to hell with the pesky public’… and limiting access to just ‘family members’ and ‘firefighters’ is that that would eliminate any of these annoying ‘issues’ about ‘liability’, or ‘handicap access’, or even people having to go to the bathroom.

      Really?

      So ‘family members’ and firefighters never stumble, fall, need wheechair access, or need use the bathroom?

      Really?

      Reply

  57. Whoops, too many hidden links, so I am going to repost.

    Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

  58. Well…as Marti and so many of the rest of you know, I am not fit to mingle with polite society ever since my thin veneer of civility wore off after I retired, and some might tell you it was pretty thin (worn off) before I retired, but I am going to try and stay focused on the problem at hand.

    I have been a bad monkey…again. And I need to be spanked or maybe take a few trips up Mount MF until I am “one” again with my old friend…Pukie The Clown.

    But the fact remains that I owe yet another apology as a result of galloping around like a cowboy…shooting from the hip. So here goes.

    “I sincerely apologize to Arizona Congressional Representative Karen Fann, and I deeply regret my offensive remarks.”

    There…now that we have got that out of the way, we can get down to business. Because I also have some very good news for you, I actually heard back (I emailed her…3 times) from Representative Fann (R-District 1) and I now believe that she may actually be a dedicated representative of We The People who deeply cares about doing the right thing for her constituents.

    I am actually beginning to embrace my direct action role in lieu of my usual nearly useless blogging. In addition, I am considering becoming a political activist so I can be a rebel WITH a cause instead of just a garden variety pain-in-the-ass.

    I think it is possible that Representative Fann is responsible for a law that makes it possible for a very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people to expand their own rights while reducing and even eliminating our rights out of IGNORANCE and not MALICE.

    It appears that Representative Fann has been listening to and passing laws that favor this very small special interest group of very greedy and very selfish people who are either IGNORANT themselves or full of MALICE. Only time will tell.

    I am so excited that I want to share the emails that I sent to Representative Fann and those that she emailed back to me, because she really is the key to us having access to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park…she has written the law that currently restricts and might even block our access to said state park. And any law that Representative Fann is responsible for writing and getting passed, she can certainly…fix.

    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; KarenFannTheFascist

    For additional info,

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

    Sep 30 at 6:20 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Gary Olson says

    Is this what you did?

    Notice (in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property. Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read (twice) before the House.

    Thank you in advance for any information on this subject you send me. I want to learn more about how our government works…in real life.

    Gary

    Sep 30 at 6:27 PM
    To: [email protected]

    Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    What do you think?

    Karen Fann
    Today at 6:55 AM

    To: gary olson

    Gary, The purpose of my legislation two years ago was to preserve the site where our men perished and prevent development of a home, water tower, etc. at that site. The land was purchased from general fund dollars and the monies went to the State Land Trust Fund which pay for our schools. (one bucket to another so to speak) The board to decide what to do with the purchased land was appointed by the Speaker of the House and the President of the Senate.

    There are no tax monies involved with any improvements to the site and will only be accomplished through private donations. The architectural subcommittee of the board has come up with some amazing ideas for hiking path and the actual memorial site.

    My comments and concerns are: The memorial should be constructed so people cannot trample on the “grave” sites; I am concerned about potential trash, bathroom use etc. at the memorial site and possible medical emergencies which might occur with no way to easily assist. Lastly, Yavapai County has graciously agreed to provide maintenance so I would like to make sure it is as maintenance free as possible to avoid spending excessive tax dollars.

    Thank you for writing. Please let me know if I can answer any more questions you may have.

    Warmest, Karen

    Today at 12:14 PM
    To Karen Fann

    Hi Karen,

    Thank you for such a thoughtful and detailed response, I did not expect one. Apparently I misjudged you, I apologize. Unfortunately, you don’t know what you are talking about and you are concerned about the wrong issues because you have been listening to people who don’t know what they are talking about. I am going to write a detailed response to your email so you can be better informed in the future when you write laws that take away my most basic rights.

    Thank You, Gary

    Today at 3:01 PM
    To: gary olson

    Thanks Gary. I look forward to hearing from you. Karen

    And now, all I have left to do, is to write a detailed response to Representative Fann to explain to her why what she did is wrong, so she will no longer be IGNORANT regarding this issue. I will post my response here before I got to bed tonight.

    God Bless America!

    Reply

  59. Well…it has been a really RED LETTER DAY for me in my little world of cyber blogging. I am getting to it late because I just spent 3 hours in a dentist chair getting a broken tooth fixed, but enough of my problems. This process is going to take several posts and a few hours, but I will get it done before I retire for the night to my bed chambers. Plus…I don’t have anything else better to do.

    First things first. I’m afraid that I have some bad news for you. WTKTT is right, the CD that I received from the court in Prescott that has the verbatim account of how Amanda Marsh lied to punish Joy for being…Joy, is just like everything else in the legal world. Recorded in the most arcane and proprietary format as possible to make it as hard on everybody but lawyers to listen to it as they possibly can. Thereby perpetuating their own nearly useless existence as parasites on their host society…us.

    I ask our best man (who happens to be a genius) to take a look at the problem and…he couldn’t find an easy fix for us. Which I desperately need when it comes to computer problems, I need an easy fix or I am screwed. Our best man for this problem is a loyal reader who does not post here, so most of you don’t know him. Now…I know that WTKTT is also working on this issue and if I know WTKTT, who I don’t real know, he will eventually resolve the problem and when he does, I will post it on my “Free Joy” web page.

    In the meantime, I will email you the recording if you want me to and here is the work-a-round process if you want to go there in the meantime.

    I must confess, the “trm” extension is one I’ve never seen before.
    It’s an esoteric format; apparently specifically for Court Reporters.

    It wouldn’t load into Audacity, which I have used for years to convert the audio channels of Youtube videos into mp3 files. So here is what you do:

    1. See this page.
    So…according to the link, there is apparently no known software to convert directly from trm into mp3 format.
    You have to use a program like FortheRecord (available from above link) to “Play” the trm file.
    Meaning it’s a magical software that converts the .trm digital signal waveform to “shake your speakers”.
    Once on the speakers, you have to use another software to “record” it, and get it into mp3 format.

    The guy that wrote the link above uses “Freecorder” to pick it off the speakers – just like I do with music and speeches off YouTube. Except I don’t use Freecorder; I use Audacity.
    Just like WTKTT; he also uses Audacity. He used it to analyze the voices in the YHF videos. It is a kick-ass software, totally free, no registration.
    And you really can physically pick it off the speakers; meaning audacity will use the on-board micro-phone on your computer (you do have a mike?) as the “input” to “record” the sound coming out of the speakers.
    But then it also records anything else going on in the room, like any and all other sound pressure bouncing around. This adds spurious noise.
    So instead the better way to do it is to just select the record “input” as the speaker channels.
    Meaning you will hear the play-back, and will digitally recording it, internally, off the speaker circuits, at the same time; the mike is off the whole time.
    Or, instead of using Audacity, you could just use the Freecorder software, and follow all the instructions in the link above. It looks pretty straightforward…
    If you get hung up, post back, and I’ll give it a whack.
    Oh my, dude. I’m so tired. How can you stay up so late? Like…are you doing speed, or what? (No, I am not riding the crystal pony…yet. It is easy to stay up half the night, if you sleep half the day.)

    Part 2

    The link at the “TechnoSolvers Blog” for getting the
    Fortherecord software didn’t work.
    You can get the product at the bottom of this page, under
    “Downloads”; the program labeled “FTR Player 5.7”.
    I downloaded the program, and I didn’t have to “register”; it was a freebie. The other programs listed on that page aren’t free.
    I’m running Windows 10; when it went to down-load, windows
    automatically updated a “visual c” module; meaning the
    Fortherecord software is written in the C programming language.
    So far so good; except when I went to load up the Court file you sent, it didn’t do anything; i.e. no playback.
    I have no idea why no playback. The date readout on the Fortherecord player for the file is Jan 8, 2015. The file duration is listed as 5 minutes, from 4:25:49 pm to 4:30:49 pm.
    Maybe the program just does not work in Windows 10.
    For example, I had a huge hassle getting my printer to work after I loaded windows 10; the old drivers didn’t work in 10.

    The file does not appear to have been compressed.
    Maybe the file was produced by some higher scale version of the software, and encrypted by Yavapai, for which you would need the decryption key and that software version?
    I have no idea, and am stymied.

    As Sam Steiger, former mayor of Prescott once remarked, after attempting to represent himself (be his own counselor) in a city lawsuit, Lawyers and Judges don’t like common citizens playing around in their sandbox, and conspire to fuck things up and slow things down. They “teach people a lesson”.

    AMEN! (from me)

    Reply

    • WTKTT – This confirms something I suspected last night after I did finally downloaded a program that does play it, teh one you suggested, but it wasn’t me the FUCKING recording wehave is only five minutes long and cuts off just as Dr. Ptnam is about to get sworn in, so we have an even bigger problem then we knew we did,

      Reply

  60. Otis said,

    (Gary – you’re sounding more like Walter Sobchak with every post)

    OMG! That is like…my most favorite movie of all time! I would much rather be like the Dude, but the sad fact is I am probably more of a Walter. I usually quote that movie…nonstop.

    The Big Lebowski; Are you employed, sir?

    The Dude: Employed?

    The Big Lebowski: You don’t go out looking for a job dressed like that? On a weekday?

    The Dude: Is this a… what day is this?

    The Big Lebowski: Well, I do work sir, so if you don’t mind…

    The Dude: I do mind, the Dude minds. This will not stand, ya know, this aggression will not stand, man.

    Fuck it Dude, let’s go bowling.

    Reply

    • He he! I knew it.
      The Stranger: Sometimes you eat the bear, and sometimes, well, he eats you.
      Yep I’m quoting it all the time too.

      I feel really powerless to help, with all the injustice going on in the world, the whole Yarnell “story” one seems like “just” another one.
      So the offer is here, if there’s anything I can do to help, even though I’m from outta town, and live across over the water, you guys let me know.

      Reply

      • Thank you for your participation Otis, with you, we can claim international blog status. And I actually used Walter’s quote…forgetting that I was quoting him, thereby missing the opportunity to attribute the movie.

        But after I responded to you, I got to thinking about it, and I remembered that I had heard, “bunch of FUCKING amateurs” (The Big Lebowski) before. GREAT CATCH!

        Reply

  62. **
    ** RUSS REASON – REST IN PEACE

    From the Skull Valley, Arizona, Facebook page…

    https://www.facebook.com/skullvalleyarizona

    ——————————————————————————————
    April Millsap – September 22 at 2:22pm

    Dear area members. I know that some of you know Russ Reason from the Yarnell & Peoples Valley area. He passed away this morning due to several medical complications that arose in the past few weeks starting with his heart. For those of you who do know of him and his wife Leah. Here are the funeral arrangements. FUNERAL ARRANGEMENTS FOR “RUSS” RUSSELL REASON: Friday September 25th 2015 Visitation to start at 12 noon Service to be held at 1 PM Following the service will be a meal. After the meal we will proceed to the Peoples Valley Cemetery for burial.
    —————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • One more time ( out of respect for Russ )…

      The original “Russ Reason” video interview from the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant on June 30, 2013… just moments after the burnover out at the deployment site.

      And YES… that is, in fact, Brendan McDonough standing at the back of Marty Cole’s white extended cab pickup there in the background on the edge of the RHR parking lot.

      Brendan is being ‘comforted’ by that tall ( still unidentified ) Blue Ridge Hotshot.

      AZCENTRAL
      Article Title: Yarnell Hill Fire: Families watch homes burn
      Published: Mon Jul 1, 2013 7:50 AM
      By Laurie Merrill, Michelle Ye Hee Lee, Rebekah L. Sanders, Erin O’Connor,
      Lindsey Collom, and Scott Craven
      http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/free/20130630yarnell-hill-fire-families-homes-burn.html

      VIDEO: Interview with Russ Reason at the Ranch House Restaurant, June 30, 2013.

      From the article…
      —————————————————————————————-
      Families stopped across the highway from their neighborhood in Glen Ilah on their way to evacuating the Yarnell Hill Fire, watching flames engulf their homes.

      Fire crews drove through the streets urging people to evacuate, residents said.

      “The fire was starting up all around,” said George Hunter, on his way to Congress to look for his wife and daughter, who left before he did. Said Russ Reason, “The fire was nipping at our heels and we had to get out of there.”

      In the hours following those evacuations, state officials confirmed that 19 firefighters were killed battled the blaze that has leveled much of Yarnell, burning hundreds of structures.

      Reason and his wife have lived in their home for 28 years. After sending his wife and a friend away first, Reason tried to go back home to salvage personal items. The fire was so close that he barely saved his dog, Misty.

      “I’m sure my house is gone by now,” Reason said.
      —————————————————————————————-

      He had just lost his home of 28 years… but he still had the composure and… yes… the bravery to stop and do an interview which then ended up one of the most important videos filmed that day.

      Sometimes ‘courage’ and ‘bravery’ doesn’t wear Nomex.

      Rest in Peace… Russ Reason.

      Reply

  63. **
    ** ARIZONA STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT DISTRICT )
    ** AND THE “SMALL GROUP OF WIDOWS”

    For those who might have recently ‘joined’ this discussion or are just now reading the latest messages… I keep using the phrase “small group of widows” as the ones who are known to have had State Representative Karen Fann’s ‘ear’ and were ( obviously ) trying to influence the content of the proposed House Bill HB2624.

    Some might be wondering… “Where are you getting that from”?

    The ANSWER is… right from State Representative Karen Fann’s mouth.

    Karen’s Fann’s PUBLIC comments about being ‘approached by the widows’ and being asked to add ‘amendments’ that would favor THEIR interest(s) and THEIR agenda(s) was originally picked up the the ‘Associated Press’… so those comments appeared in any number of MSM articles. Here is a link to just ONE of them…

    NOTE: The TIMING on this ‘AP Press’ distribution was on the day that the Bill was first ‘approved’ by the Arizona House of Representative, on March 5, 2014. It then had to head to the Arizona Senate and pass muster there before being signed into LAW by then Arizona Governor Jan Brewer.

    WORLD NOW
    Article Title: Arizona House approves Yarnell Hill memorial site plan
    Posted: Wednesday, Mar 05, 2014 5:34 PM CST by Jennifer Jones
    http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/24897692/house-approves-yarnell-hill-memorial-site-plan

    From the article…
    ————————————————————————————————
    PHOENIX (AP) –

    The Arizona House of Representatives has passed a bill setting aside $500,000 to create a memorial site honoring the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died in the Yarnell Hill Fire last year.

    House Bill 2624 passed Wednesday on a 56-2 vote and now goes to the Senate.

    It was amended Monday to give the firefighters’ survivors the chance to buy the site themselves. Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott says the widows approached her about the proposal.

    The bill creates a committee to oversee the memorial and administer the fund and any donations for the purchase. The committee would include relatives of the firefighters, state representatives and state parks board officials.

    All but one of the 20 Hotshots on the Prescott-based crew perished in the fire on June 30.
    ————————————————————————————————

    The relevant quote from Karen Fann…

    “It was amended Monday to give the firefighters’ survivors the chance to buy the site themselves. Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott says the widows approached her about the proposal.”

    ANOTHER article around the same time had ANOTHER direct quote from Fann which also quotes Fann saying ( in no uncertain terms ) that she would “LOVE IT” if the “widows” got to possess ( and control ) the land.

    I kid you not.

    Direct quote from Arizona News Radio interview with Karen Fann….
    ———————————————————————————–
    Fann, noting that passing legislation is a prerequisite to the purchase of that land, says a group of Hotshot widows has also expressed interest in buying the site. Fann told them, she’d LOVE IT if they succeeded in doing that.
    ———————————————————————————–

    It was these ‘other’ articles appearing at the same time that then referred to these widows that had Karen Fann’s “ear” as just a ‘group’ or ‘small group’ of widows ( As in… not ALL of the GM widows… just SOME ).

    The article(s) appeared on WEDNESDAY, March 5, 2014… so the ‘Monday’ being referenced in the article above would have been MONDAY, March 3, 2014.

    That is the day the article says the Bill was ‘amended’ with this new ‘clause’ that would give the widows ‘first dibs’ ( over the citizens of Arizona ) to ‘buy the land’, if they wanted to.

    That MONDAY, March 3, 2014 date ( 2014-03-03 ) actually matches the following entry for that date in the permanent legislative ‘history’ for this House Bill 2624 ( HB2624 )…

    Date, Chamber, Action
    ———————————————————————————————–
    2014-03-10, Senate, Introduced in Senate and read first time
    2014-03-05, House, Transmit to Senate
    2014-03-05, House, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
    2014-03-03, House, House Committee of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-27, House, House majority caucus: Do pass
    ———————————————————————————————–

    March 3, 2014 is the day the Bill was ‘leaving’ the House Committee and headed for a vote on the House floor… and the recommendation coming of out Committee to the Members of the House was…

    “Do Pass (as) Amended”.

    Remember… the Bill was actually first introduced in the House ( and read for the first time on the House Floor ) almost a MONTH earlier… on February 11, 2015.

    The article doesn’t appear to be ‘correct’ when it reports that Representative Karen Fann only got around proposing her “widows get a shot at buying the land” amendment just 48 hours before it left the House for the Senate.

    The online record of Karen Fann’s proposed ‘amendments’ to the bill puts that first mention of a proposed “widows get a shot at buying the land” amendment at just 48 hours AFTER the Bill was first introduced.

    It was proposed in the SAME ‘amendment’ presented by Fann on February 14, 2014, that also had this first mention of ‘permissions’ as part of the same proposal…

    4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    Just below that…there was this OTHER proposed ‘New requirement’ for the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ that also wasn’t in the original amendment…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    So it was Karen Fann who wanted to change this original (clear) DIRECTIVE in the original Bill…

    1. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD RECOMMENDS THAT THE STATE PARKS BOARD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    To something that gave that ‘widows’ who had her ‘ear’ a ‘better shot’ at buying the land for themselves…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    She ( Fann ) obviously couldn’t get any ‘language’ to pass muster that might have codified into LAW some nonsense like “If the widows decide they don’t want it… then the STATE can buy the land”… so the COMPROMISE was to just not make it a ‘done deal’ that ONLY the Arizona State Parks department should ‘buy the land’.

    She succeeded in “giving the widows a shot at it” and forced this to be one of the ‘action items’ that the Board would have to VOTE on once it was fully assembled.

    BOTH of Karen Fann’s proposed amendments ( which she submitted ALONE, with no other sponsors ), were eventually ‘accepted’ and ended up in the final HB 2624 that was signed into LAW on April 30, 2015.

    And… sure enough… the very first ‘order of business’ for the newly formed Board was to VOTE about whether or it might be better to let ‘private parties’ buy the land instead of the State.

    The VOTE ended up ‘unanimous’ for the ORIGINAL INTENT of the legislation, BEFORE Karen Fann got it ‘amended’ to ‘consider private parties’ ( like the widows ).

    The Board voted ( with no dissent, even though Amanda Marsh had a vote ) that it would be in the PUBLIC’S best interest for Arizona Parks Department to buy the land, and NOT some ‘private parties’.

    But regardless of THAT vote… the mysterious “BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL” blurb that Karen Fann also succeeded in adding to the Bill remains…

    …and as the July 31, 2015 minutes of this Board show… the Board also UNANIMOUSLY assigned a single widow and Board member ( Amanda Marsh ) as the one-and-only person to do the UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of ALL the ‘family members’ to see if they wanted the PUBLIC to be able to get anywhere near the deployment area.

    The RESULT of that UNSUPERVISED ‘Amanda Marsh’ polling mission are probably already known to the Board… but they haven’t published the minutes of their September 18, 2015 meeting yet.

    Whatever they have ‘decided’ here… it’s gonna be NEWS.

    The PUBLIC is paying for all of this… and I’m sure the PUBLIC is still ASSUMING they will have ACCESS to ALL parts of this new ‘State Park’.

    ** POSTSCRIPT

    Oddly enough… even though that language about one of the ‘tasks’ of the new Board being to first DECIDE if ‘private parties’ ( the widows ) should be allowed to buy the land, versus just assuming Arizona State Parks should buy it was NEVER in the original version of the Bill… and State Rep Karen Fann succeeded in ADDING that language to the Bill in response to requests from “the widows”…

    …they ( Arizona legislators ) actually FORGOT to take out the language that Karen Fann’s amendment seemed to be trying to replace.

    So the final HB2624 that was signed into LAW by (then) Governor Jan Brewer actually ended up with BOTH of the following CONTRADICTORY / CONFLICTING items in it…

    ** The ORIGINAL directive that said the only thing the Board should even consider is that
    ** Arizona State Parks BUY the land…

    1. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD RECOMMENDS THAT THE STATE PARKS BOARD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    ** AND.. the ‘amended’ language/directive that State Representative Karen Fann succeeded
    ** in ADDING to the Bill at ( apparently ) the direct request of some small group of “widows”…

    2. DETERMINE WHETHER THE STATE PARKS BOARD OR A PRIVATE PARTY SHOULD PURCHASE THE LAND FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE.

    Whoops!

    BOTH of those ‘conflicting directives’ actually ended up in the final ‘Printed’ Bill that was then signed into LAW on April 30, 2015.

    Reply

  64. Perhaps all those high-concept “cha-ching” minded folks over at the Prescott Chamber of Commerce ought to start getting letters and emails from out-of-state people like myself asking the question, “Why should I bother coming to Prescott to visit the GM Memorial Site when the Widows along with Representative Karen Fann have legislatively accomplished what’s needed to RESTRICT the general public from going to this public funded State Park? There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private country club. Perhaps we’ll just visit the Grand Canyon instead.”

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 30, 2015 at 6:24 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> There’s certainly no need for me and my family to travel to Prescott when
      >> this Memorial Site is open to ONLY those whom the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board
      >> grants permission to — as if it were something akin to being their own private
      >> country club.

      Make no mistake… Arizona State Representative Karen Fann ( elected to represent ALL of the people of her district… and not just ‘friends’ and/or people who might have WORKED for her ) wasn’t just ‘going along’ with what the widows wanted her to do in order to just ‘get them off her back’.

      Representative Karen Fann is on record as PUBLICLY stating she would LOVE IT if the ‘widows’ WERE able to SUCCEED in buying the land for themselves and making it a ‘private country club’… or any other damn thing THEY wanted.

      ARIZONA NEWS RADIO
      Article Title: House Tentatively O.K.s Yarnell HIll Fire Memorial
      Posted on 3/3/2014 2:56:00 PM.
      http://arizonanewsradio.com/default.asp?pid=611866&tblog=15087

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————-
      The Arizona House of Representatives has given tentative approval to a bill securing the land where 19 Arizona firefighters died in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Representative Karen Fann’s bill authorizes the state to buy the site where the Granite Mountain Hotshots died battling last June’s rampant wildfire.

      A permanent memorial is planned for that spot with a price tag of $500,000 dollars Fann, noting that passing legislation is a prerequisite to the purchase of that land, says a group of Hotshot widows has also expressed interest in buying the site.

      Fann told them, she’d LOVE IT if they SUCCEEDED in doing that.

      Fann also didn’t mind a suggestion that something also be established at Wesley Bolin Plaza in Downtown Phoenix to honor the victims’ memory.

      The House next formally votes on the measure.
      ————————————————————————-

      Given her PUBLIC statements of expressed BIAS as to the OUTCOME of the process even
      WHILE the legislation was being considered… there is NO WAY that Representative Karen
      Fann should have then been appointed to actually SERVE on this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board.

      TWO WORDS: Conflict of Interest.

      The BOARD was created to do what’s in the best interests of ALL the people of Arizona,
      who are the ones forking out the $500,000 to ‘do the deed’.

      Karen Fann had already made PUBLIC statements that she was more interested in the
      ‘widows’ getting what THEY wanted than she was interested in doing what’s right for
      the people who elected her.

      Bzzzt. That should have automatically ‘disqualified’ her from serving on this PUBLIC Board.

      But it didn’t.

      There she is… VOTING on outcomes.

      Reply

  65. Geez Gary, just quit whining already!!

    Apparently you just don’t have the right connections!!

    Fire Scientists Visit Yarnell Hill

    “On June 22, eight days short of the second anniversary of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire fatalities, a team of five fire scientists from the Missoula Fire Sciences Laboratory visited the site and the communities of Yarnell and Prescott. Two of the local principals responsible for conducting the recovery and working with families and the community following the burnover served as hosts and guided the tour. It was the longest day of the year and forecast to be a hot one. FFS Team Leader Bret Butler, the principal investigator responsible for development of improved safety zone and escape route guidelines for wildland fire, describes his thoughts and the subsequent events leading to this emotional field visit.”

    http://www.firelab.org/fire-scientists-visit-yarnell-hill

    Reply

    • No…I guess not? But I still didn’t see where the “horses” came from?

      I sent emails to Karen Fann at both her re-election campaign and at the Arizona State Legislature but I haven’t heard back from her yet.

      Reply

          • Whoops, too many links in first reply

            I mostly was trying to alert her that I HOPE she has a PROBLEM brewing on this blog that I hope gets worse if she and her cabal of Widows keeps it up. So…I said.

            gary olson

            Today at 2:33 PM

            [email protected]

            Gary Olson says

            September 30, 2015 at 2:24 pm

            I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

            I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

            For additional info, And I sent a link to my “background where I am at comment”

            Reply

        • I mostly was trying to alert her that I HOPE she has a PROBLEM brewing on this blog that I hope gets worse if she and her cabal of Widows keeps it up. So…I said.

          gary olson

          Today at 2:33 PM

          [email protected]

          Gary Olson says

          September 30, 2015 at 2:24 pm

          I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

          I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

          For additional info,

          http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309276

          Reply

  66. I am thinking about starting a new website when and if I find that the state is going to tightly control everyone who gets to visit the new Arizona State Park. I would like to detail everything that Karen Fann has done to take away the rights of millions of citizens, including most of the ones who live in her district who are paying for the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park.

    I might call me new website; http://www.KarenFannTheFascist.com

    Reply

          • Right on, plus she is the most powerful and she is using her power and elected office to reward her friends and punish others, which is classic political corruption.

            So I am going to focus on her and build her a website that will…bother her…if she succeeds and restricts MY rights to visit any Arizona Park whenever the mood strikes me.

            Reply

  67. WTKTT said that Marti said

    “And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.”

    Where the hell did that come from. Amanda Marsh’s thing is HORSES?

    Reply

      • “Karen and husband Jim McKown also owned and operated the FANN-M Ranch for nearly a decade. The FANN-M Ranch, an equine facility, boarded horses and produced equine competitions. Karen and Jim also and worked closely with area 4-H Clubs and other nonprofits to organize and sponsor community fundraisers at the Ranch.”

        http://electkarenfann.com/index.php/biography

        That IS in the past tense. But still. Just sayin’.

        Reply

      • Thank you Marti. That is why I asked of course. I think Amanda Marsh works for Karen Fann in some capacity taking care of her horses

        So where does it talk about horses? Are they making laws so Amanda Marsh and Karen Fann don’t have to hike to the site, but so they can ride horses?

        Reply

        • Apparently Fann sold the ranch in 2006.

          I’m not sure exactly when Amanda started being a farrier, but i think it was somewhere around that time and I think she was living in Chino Valley.

          I’m just looking for some kind of connection. You know, friends, as in you scratch my back and i’ll scratch yours??

          I could be totally off! I just think it was more than a coincidence that WTKTT and I had the same lightbulb moment at the same time.

          Amanda was shoeing horses big time and Karen was owning horses big time. Around about the same time and around about the same place.

          Reply

          • Oh…OK, here is my answer, didn’t read far enough. Well…the word on the street (to use TV lingo) is that Amanda Marsh did work or does work for Karen Fann…so my point is , you may be right.

            But I am continuing to dig by working all of my snitches on the mean streets of Prescott.

            Reply

            • I just hope my “snitches don’t end up in ditches”, I mean…I did watch “Chinatown” once upon a time. I know how ugly big city politics can get.

              Reply

  68. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 29, 2015 at 8:12 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> “I think they really want to, but I think the IM is not the only place people are
    >> or will be getting fired up. I think (I hope) in the end they are defeated, but
    >> they are going to fight for it. Maybe when I do go, I will go down and wait to
    >> be arrested for being there, won’t that be an experience? It will make a
    >> great story for the book that I will never write on the YHF.”

    Hopefully everyone involved in this process will all bump their heads on something and ‘come to their senses’ ( sooner rather than later ) about this.

    It is NOT A CEMETERY.
    It is NOT where their REMAINS are.

    It is simply the place where they died.

    I live in a State where it is permissible for family members of those who have died in car crashes to place these same ‘little white crosses’ planned for the deployment site at the exact spot on the side of the road(s) where their family members died.

    At this point… they are ( literally ) all over the fucking place.

    When the County Road Workers mow the right-of-way… they are required to carefully remove these crosses while they mow… and then put them BACK.

    There is never any suggestion whatsoever that anyone needs any ‘permission’ to walk right up to these crosses to read what’s on them… or read some of the ‘notes’ that are often pinned to the crosses.

    That’s because it’s not where they are BURIED.
    It’s just the place where a horrible accident took place.

    ** DECISION ALREADY MADE?

    I believe the RESULTS of this little ‘Amanda Marsh’ UNSUPERVISED ‘poll of the family members’ with regards to whether they want the the public to ever get near the actual deployment site are ALREADY IN.

    In the minutes of the July 31, 2015 meeting… it said this…

    —————————————————————————————————–
    Chairman ( Sue ) Black ( Director of Arizona State Parks ) opened up general
    discussion among the Board members.

    – Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.

    – Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.

    Motion: Jeff Whitney ( Arizona State Forester ) moved that the Yarnell Board approve Amanda Marsh to get input from the families regarding suggested design of the fatality site, ACCESS to the fatality site, and ACCESS among the crosses. Senator Pierce seconded the motion.
    Unanimous APPROVAL.
    —————————————————————————————————-

    So within TWO WEEKS ( following the July 31, 2015 meeting ), Amanda Marsh was supposed to have completed this UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of the family members and made some kind of ( written? ) report back to the Board.

    The NEXT meeting of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’ has already taken place.

    It happened just recently, on September 18, 2015.

    So it stands to reason that they ‘discussed’ the RESULTS of Amanda Marsh’s little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ expedition at this most recent meeting… and if there was then this ‘split’ amongst the family members about whether the public should ever be able to get near the deployment site… then the ‘Board’ itself was supposed to VOTE on it.

    So all of that has very likely ALREADY happened.

    But since this ‘Board’ has consistently violated ‘Arizona Open Meeting’ laws regarding posting ‘minutes’ from meetings within 72 hours… there are still NO ‘minutes’ posted from this most recent meeting… and since the local media no longer gives a shit about attending these meetings… there is no media article to say what might have been decided on September 18.

    So (apparently) this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Board’ already knows what the ‘wishes of the families’ are and/or what the PUBLIC ACCESS for this State Park is going to look like.

    It’s just us poor slobs ( the public ) who are ‘footing the bill” that haven’t been INFORMED yet.

    Reply

    • The other thing that I’m seeing there is how, exactly, do they define/measure a split among the family members?

      Does that mean if a little over half the family members want the public to have access, as is the NORM for both Arizona State Parks AND Wildland FireFighter fatality sites, and a little under half the family members don’t (and yes I agree with all you have written about this WTKTT), then when it gets back to the Board, the Board determines that that is a signal to vote to close access, as is obviously their preference??

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 30, 2015 at 3:26 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> The other thing that I’m seeing there is how, exactly, do they
        >> define/measure a split among the family members?

        Probably any damn way they choose.

        There are actually TWO phases here ( as far as we know ).

        Phase ONE involves the actual ‘accuracy’ of the ‘report’ that Amanda Marsh delivers back to the Board. I guess Marsh could just come back and say…

        “I talked to the families. They are ‘split’ about it”

        …and I’ll bet not one other person on that Board would say “Prove it”.

        They would just accept whatever she said and not even ask to see a LIST of who was contacted, when, and what they actually said, even though this little ‘polling’ expedition she was assigned is now going to affect the PUBLIC’s right to access a State Park that the PUBLIC, itself, has already paid for.

        Phase TWO of this ‘decision making process’ is ( as you said above ) then up to the interpretation of the ‘results’ by the Board itself.

        So yea… even if Amanda Marsh actually did an full and complete job of talking to ALL the ‘family members’ and is accurately reporting what they ALL had to say… the ‘Board’ could just say…

        “Well… that looks like they are ‘split’. Let’s just close more than half of this PUBLIC park to PUBLIC ACCESS just to be sure we don’t make a family person mad”.

        I don’t see any ‘oversight’ going on with regards to this Arizona P{UBLIC BOARD and the decisions they are making. They are pretty much just doing whatever they want… and will most likely continue doing that.

        Reply

  69. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT ) WAITED UNTIL AFTER
    ** THE SECOND READING OF ORIGINAL BILL BEFORE SHE STARTED ADDING
    ** AMENDMENTS ABOUT ‘SETTING PERMISSIONS FOR WHO CAN VISIT THE SITE’.

    Reply to Marti Reed on September 30, 2015 at 11:40 am

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Thanks, WTKTT. I was a little foggy on the exact timeline of all of this.
    >> None of this was even on my radar during February thru April of last year.
    >>
    >> And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.
    >>
    >> There’s a WHOLE bunch of double-speak going on here.

    The ‘Complete Legislative Action’ history for this Bill that established this Arizona State sponsored “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board is here.

    It shows exactly how/when it ‘traveled’ through both the House and the Senate and then on to the Governor’s desk.

    There are also links to all the ‘versions’ of it including the ORIGINAL and then all the incremental ‘amendments’ that were being ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ).

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/bill/HB2624/2014

    Legislative History of HB2624

    First ‘reading’ in the House: February 11, 2014.
    Signed into LAW by Governor: April 30, 2014

    S = Senate
    H = House of Representatives
    Cmte. = Committee
    ————————————————————
    Date, Chamber, Action
    ————————————————————
    2014-04-30,, Chapter 273 E
    2014-04-30,, Governor Signed
    2014-04-24,, Transmitted to Governor
    2014-04-23, S, Transmit to House
    2014-04-23, S, Senate third reading PASSED voting: (24-1-5-0)
    2014-04-16, S, Senate Cmte., Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-04-14, S, Senate majority caucus: Do pass
    2014-04-14, S, Senate minority caucus: Do pass
    2014-04-09, S, Senate RULES Cmte. action: Proper For Consideration
    2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate RULES Committee
    2014-03-17, S, Senate GE Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (6-0-1-0)
    2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate GE Committee
    2014-03-11, S, Senate APPROP Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (7-0-2-0)
    2014-03-11, S, Referred to Senate APPROP Committee
    2014-03-11, S, Senate read second time
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate RULES Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate GE Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate APPROP Committee
    2014-03-10, S, Introduced in Senate and read first time
    2014-03-05 H, Transmit to Senate
    2014-03-05 H, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
    2014-03-03 H, House Cmte. of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-27, H, House majority caucus: Do pass
    2014-02-27, H, House minority caucus: Do pass
    2014-02-26, H, House RULES Cmte constitutional and proper form.
    2014-02-11, H, Referred to House RULES Committee
    2014-02-19, H, House APPROP Committee action: Do Pass
    2014-02-11, H, Referred to House APPROP Committee
    2014-02-17, H, House EENR Cmte, action: Do Pass Amended
    2014-02-12, H, Referred to House EENR Committee
    2014-02-12, H, House read second time
    2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House RULES Committee
    2014-02-11 H, Assigned to House APPROP Committee
    2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House EENR Committee
    2014-02-11, H, Introduced in House and read first time
    ————————————————————

    Notice ( in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Presoctt ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property.

    Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read ( twice ) before the House.

    Reply

  70. I would like to sum up for you exactly where I am at, at least as far as Chief Ben Palm of the Yarnell Hill Fire Department, the Arizona State Parks and the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board are concerned.

    I began with the U.S. Forest Service as a wildland firefighter in 1974 at age 19 on the Prescott National Forest. Prescott, Arizona is my home town.

    I became a hotshot with the Coconino National Forest on the Happy Jack Hotshots in 1975 at age 20.

    From 1975 through 1977, I worked on the Happy Jack Hotshots in a series of positions which included, the second to the last shovel on Squad 2, the Sawyer on Squad 2, the Lead Pulaski (first crewman in a crew line) on Squad 1, the Squad Boss for Squad 2, and finally the Squad Boss for Squad 1 (which served as the Assistant Crew Boss).

    At the beginning of the fire season in 1978, I was promoted to be the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss. I was 23 years old at the time, the youngest hotshot crew boss in the nation. In fact, I think I was the youngest hotshot crew boss…ever.

    I served in that capacity until the end of 1980 at which time the crew slot was transferred to the Santa Fe National Forest. In January of 1981, I was offered the job of moving to Santa Fe, New Mexico, and founding the Santa Fe Hotshots. I worked in that capacity through the 1984 fire season.

    In 1982, I was asked to serve in a co-lateral position as the District Assistant Fire Management Officer when our district was combined with another district. In that position, I supervised all fire personnel on the entire new much larger district, including Fire Prevention Technicians, Fire Look Out Tower personnel and Engine Foremen in addition to maintaining my Santa Fe IHC Superintendent (Crew Boss) position.

    In the latter part of 1984, I was promoted to the position of Santa Fe National Forest, Forest Dispatcher and I held a co-lateral job as the Coordinator of the Interagency North Central Zone New Mexico Fire Operations Center. I was in this job until the end of 1988, when I went to work for the BLM.

    I retired in 2006 with 30 years (30-12 month years) from the Federal Public Safety Retirement system, which includes all federal law enforcement and fire fighters as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) with the BLM Washington Office of Law Enforcement & Security. Twenty years in that system earns you the option to retire at any age, and collect 50 percent of you highest 3 years of pay when you turn 50.

    Over the past two years I have dedicated hundreds of hours to ascertaining why the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew died on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I willingly volunteered this time which took away from my enjoying a full, rich and happy retirement that I share with my dear wife of 40 years, who still works as a registered nurse helping people with severe brain injuries. And bless her heart for the salary she earns, because it contributes greatly to my full, rich and happy retirement. I am currently doing research and working on a book that I will never finish about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Yesterday, on Monday, September 28, in the A.M., I gave a Readers Digest version of my back ground to Arizona State Parks Public Information Officer Ken Sliwa when I requested permission to go to the area that has now been designated as the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park to conduct research for my book and to photograph the area.

    Mr. Sliwa had already informed me that fire professionals were being allowed to go into the area under the guidance of Prescott Fire Department personnel and that he would pass my request “up the chain” to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board.

    During this conversation, I informed Mr. Sliwa that I did not believe the Closure Order displayed on the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board web site was any longer valid, since it was signed by the Arizona State Land Commissioner and not someone from the Arizona State Parks.

    Today, on Tuesday, September 29,2015, I was informed in an email from Yarnell Fire Department Chief Ben Palm and a member of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board that my request to go into the area in question had been denied.

    What a great country we live in…except for the Yavapai County, Arizona…part. God Bless America!

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing.

      If I don’t deserve to go to the deployment site to pay my respects, than who does?

      EVERYBODY does…that’s who!

      Reply

      • Looks like any one on here who has made comments is going to be denied.
        Retired Fire Fighters or not.
        As you all know I upset one of the Mothers Earlier this year by stating Marsh made the decisions and carried the responsibility of the Deaths.
        She is one of the Board members.
        Yes John needs to go public on this atrocity. I may have to join Gary on a hike to the site as a protest to the closure of public lands. It is a public memorial site not a private Cemetery.
        How dose a City Fire Chief have a right to control State Park Land? Even a County Commissioner dose not have that right.
        What is going on here? Once the Land was purchased and the State Park took it over to develop it became public land which it already was a State Land.
        The Deployment site is less than a Quarter Acer the rest should be open, the fence around the deployment site protects it.

        JOHN—-I wonder if they would allow you and a couple of FS retired investigators on the Site. Like Gary, me and RTS or others who have been on here?
        I see a good story brewing here. This is unprecedented as a Wild Land Fire Fighter Memorial Site Goes, all others are open access to the public and Fire Fighters. with no restrictions.

        Reply

        • I agree there is a good (very bad) story here about government overreach by Karen Fann and a plan to restrict the right of many to benefit a few. I really hope John and many other get on this or the public is going to get screwed.

          Reply

    • Even by THEIR rules this doesn’t make sense.

      Apparently even being a wildland fire-fighter (retired) doesn’t get you into their precious designation of “Acceptable.”

      Apparently it’s all about Their™ judgement regarding “Acceptable Thinking.”

      Apparently, being a Non-Acceptably-Thinking Fire-Fighter is now an additional restriction on the PRIVILEGE of visiting the 350 acres Arizona State Parks was given the funds to buy (by the Arizona Legislature) in order to create a PUBLICLY- owned and paid-for and maintained Arizona State Park.

      I agree with your saying downstream that this is a total scam.

      Reply

    • I think Bob should put in a request, also. And Sitta. And RTS. And Rocksteady. And every other wildland firefighter that has posted on here. Call it an experiment.

      Reply

  71. **
    ** STATE REPRESENTATIVE KAREN FANN ( PRESCOTT ) IS THE ONE
    ** WHO ‘AMENDED’ THE ARIZONA LEGISLATION GIVING THE YARNELL
    ** HILL MEMORIAL BOARD THE AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHO GETS
    ** TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    >> On September 29, 2015 at 8:01 pm, Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> “No, neither one (not the State Parks Dept., or the Yarnell Hill Fire Dept.),
    >> up the chain of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park BOARD!
    >> They are making the decision who gets to visit the park!

    And ( it appears ) State Representative Karen Fann ( at the request of this small group of widows? ) made SURE they had the ‘authoritay’ to do just that.

    The original BILL that was submitted to the Arizona State Legislature that would allocate PUBLIC money for a ‘Grante Mountain Hotshots Memorial’ did NOT have any ‘language’ in it about establishing special ‘permissions’ to visit such a Memorial.

    The ORIGINAL Bill was introduced onto the floor of the Arizona House of Representatives for consideration on February 11, 2014.

    It was ‘introduced’ by a host of legislators… including State Representative Karen Fann ( whose district includes Prescott )… but it was not Karen Fann ALONE introducing this proposed ‘Bill’.

    A COPY of that original Bill ( as introduced ) is here…

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/text/HB2624/id/953722

    It only established FOUR ‘responsibilities’ for this PUBLIC Board…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    C. The Yarnell Hill memorial site board shall:
    1. Establish a memorial dedicated to the members of the granite Mountain hotshot crew who lost their lives fighting the Yarnell Hill fire.
    2. Plan for the maintenance and preservation of the memorial.
    3. Solicit private monetary donations or public monies for deposit in the Yarnell Hill memorial fund established by section
    4. Submit a Report on the progress of the memorial to the governor, the president of the senate and the speaker of the house of representatives on or before December 31, 2015 and provide a copy of this report to the secretary of state.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Notice that there is NOTHING in that ORIGINAL proposed legislation about this ‘Board’ establishing any kind of ‘permissions’ for who may or may not be allowed to access the ‘Memorial’ site.

    ** 48 HOURS LATER

    48 Hours after the ‘original’ Bill was introduced… State Representative Karen Fann ( ALONE, this time ) proposed the first ‘amendments’ for the legislation.

    On February 14, 2015, State Representative Karen Fann ( who represents Prescott and who is known to have been talking to a ‘small group of widows’ ) then proposed that a new ‘responsibility’ be added to the legislation for this proposed ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board’.

    She wanted to add a new ‘responsibility’ that the Board would be the ones to ‘establish permissions for individuals to visit the memorial’

    Here is an online page that has the CHANGES that Karen Fan proposed for the Bill in an AMENDMENT she brought to the floor of the House of Representatives just 48 hours after the Bill was ‘introduced’…

    https://legiscan.com/AZ/amendment/HB2624/id/10810

    ———————————————————————————————-
    Bill Title: Yarnell Hill memorial; appropriation

    Status: 2014-04-30 – Chapter 273 E [HB2624 Detail]

    Download: Arizona-2014-HB2624-

    HOUSE_ADOPTED_AMENDMENT_Fann_SUBSTITUTE_Floor_amendment_to_the_ENERGY_ENVIRONMENT_AND_NATURAL_RESOURCES_Committee_amendment_Reference_to_printed_bill.html

    Fifty-first Legislature
    Second Regular Session
    Fann ( Karen )
    H.B. 2624

    FANN ( KAREN ) SUBSTITUTE FLOOR AMENDMENT

    HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES AMENDMENTS TO H.B. 2624

    I move the following SUBSTITUTE Floor amendment to the ENERGY, ENVIRONMENT AND NATURAL RESOURCES Committee amendment to HOUSE BILL 2624 ( Reference to printed bill )

    Between lines 11 and 12, insert:

    “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

    KAREN FANN

    2624-f1-fann
    2/28/14
    9:02 AM
    H:as
    —————————————————————————————————-

    That ‘amendment’ proposed by Karen Fann ( ALONE ) was approved, and from that moment on ( and until it was passed into LAW )… one of the ADDED ‘responsibilities’ for this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” was to be…

    4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.

    So someone appears to have ‘gotten to’ State Representative Karen Fann in the 48 hours after the Bill was originally introduced and ‘lobbied’ her to add a clause that would allow this Board itself to decide who could or could not ‘VISIT THE MEMORIAL’.

    More about this later… because Karen Fann was then ALSO the one who added even MORE amendments ( ALONE ) about perhaps allowing a group of ‘widows’ to be the ones to have ‘first rights of purchase’ on the land.

    How much you want to bet that this ‘small group of widows’ were the ones who also made sure she added that ‘amendment’ about ‘permissions’… which ended up surviving in the Bill until it was signed into LAW and still exists today.

    We still don’t know who all of this ‘small group of widows’ were that had State Representative Karen Fann’s ‘ear’ throughout this legislative process… but the money is good for at least TWO names…

    Amanda Marsh
    Deborah Pfingston ( not even technically a widow, but possibly still directly involved ).

    BOTH of these individuals are functioning ‘members’ of the Board itself… and they are STILL having a direct influence on how this ‘State Park’ turns out.

    Amanda Marsh herself is the one who the Board has unanimously approved to do some kind of offline POLLING of the ‘family members’ to determine if the PUBLIC will ever be able to get near the deployment site, or not. She is doing this POLLING in an UNSUPERVISED way and is/was supposed to just ‘report back’ to the Board on what the ‘decision’ is going to be.

    Reply

    • Thank you WTKTT!!

      Apparently that’s another (need I say almost hidden from view?) place where “the rubber hit the road?

      So, apparently, even though there is absolutely NO PRECEDENT in the entire history of Arizona State Parks for any kind of designation of an Arizona State MEMORIAL Park, much less any kind of special restrictions on the kind of visitors allowed into that Arizona State Memorial Park, written into ANY of the Rules pertaining to that designation ANYWHERE in any of the rules/laws governing any other of the Arizona State Parks………..this happened.

      Apparently, the folks in the (not so highly esteemed) Arizona State Legislature were sloppy in their thinking and their research. Why am I not surprised??????

      This may be dictating things now, but I don’t think it’s going to hold up in the long run.

      I was thinking, before I read this, that the architecture of the laws surrounding the Arizona State Parks would support an easy peasy challenge to this whole “restrictions” thing. Now that I’m reading this, I’m thinking that, since this was encoded into the legislation, it might be a little less “easy peasy” to challenge it.

      But it still needs to be challenged. For all the reasons I’ve written in all my comments downstream.

      The fricken Governor of the State of Arizona said that this purchase was for the Pubic. So did the head of Arizona State Parks. I’m with Gary on this. All things considered, I think when this becomes seriously visibly PUBLIC (which is isn’t right now but it will be eventually), a lot of shi*t is going to hit the fan.

      I am sorry for you, Wildland Firefighters™. Your much-deserved, and up until now honored, need for a site in which you, and the public (who really need to be involved in this discussion, all things considered), can contemplate and discuss how and why a bunch of your brothers perished in a wildfire, is being hijacked by an alternative agenda.

      I’m seriously feeling pretty sick about this. Just sayin’.

      Reply

      • I agree with everything you just said, Marti. Facts and sentiments.

        State Representative Karen Fann was just the ‘flunky’ here.

        It was (apparently) NOT her idea to put anything in the actual original legislation that she co-sponsored about anyone being the ‘visitation permission overlords’ for any proposed Arizona State Park.

        Someone ELSE got her to INSERT that into the legislation in pursuit of their OWN ( private ) agenda.

        So the real ‘story’ there is… WHO WAS THAT?

        Depending on the circumstances ( possible quid-pro-quo, etc. ), it might very well be a case of ‘undue influence on a legislator’ that might even arise to criminal charges.

        There are, in fact, LAWS about that sort of thing.

        Ooops… I forgot… Arizona State Motto seems to be…

        RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

        Reply

      • The bill became LAW in April of 2014.
        It was first introduced and had its first ‘reading’ on the floor of the Arizona House of Representatives on February 11, 2014.

        That original Bill, as read on the floor of the House, did NOT have any language in it about this proposed ‘Memorial Board’ having anything to do with ‘permissions’.

        That got ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann at the same time she was also trying to add the clause which said this “small group of widows” should have “first dibs” on buying the land for themselves.

        There COULD be serious ‘quid-pro-quo’ issues here.

        Let’s say that one of these ‘widows’ might have actually had some kind of ‘business’ relationship with State Representative Karen Fann.

        For the sake of argument, let’s just say that maybe Karen Fann likes ( and owns ) horses. Let’s also just say that the person she employs to maintain the horseshoes for her horses turns out to be one of the widows.

        If that widow was then one of the “small group of widows” that was known to be talking to Karen Fann and known to be influencing the content of a proposed piece of Arizona legislation…

        ..then that’s a PROBLEM and the full circumstances need to be looked at by the Arizona State Legislature House Ethics Committee.

        Reply

        • Thanks, WTKTT. I was a little foggy on the exact timeline of all of this. None of this was even on my radar during February thru April of last year.

          And, one of my first thoughts after doing a little research was “hmmmmm horses?” also.

          There’s a WHOLE bunch of double-speak going on here.

          Reply

          • The ‘Complete Legislative Action’ history for this Bill that established this Arizona State sponsored “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board is here.

            It shows exactly how/when it ‘traveled’ through both the House and the Senate and then on to the Governor’s desk.

            There are also links to all the ‘versions’ of it including the ORIGINAL and then all the incremental ‘amendments’ that were being ‘added’ by State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ).

            https://legiscan.com/AZ/bill/HB2624/2014

            Legislative History of HB2624

            First ‘reading’ in the House: February 11, 2014.
            Signed into LAW by Governor: April 30, 2014

            S = Senate
            H = House of Representatives
            Cmte. = Committee
            ————————————————————
            Date, Chamber, Action
            ————————————————————
            2014-04-30,, Chapter 273 E
            2014-04-30,, Governor Signed
            2014-04-24,, Transmitted to Governor
            2014-04-23, S, Transmit to House
            2014-04-23, S, Senate third reading PASSED voting: (24-1-5-0)
            2014-04-16, S, Senate Cmte., Whole action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-04-14, S, Senate majority caucus: Do pass
            2014-04-14, S, Senate minority caucus: Do pass
            2014-04-09, S, Senate RULES Cmte. action: Proper For Consideration
            2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate RULES Committee
            2014-03-17, S, Senate GE Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (6-0-1-0)
            2014-03-10, S, Referred to Senate GE Committee
            2014-03-11, S, Senate APPROP Cmte. action: Do Pass, voting: (7-0-2-0)
            2014-03-11, S, Referred to Senate APPROP Committee
            2014-03-11, S, Senate read second time
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate RULES Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate GE Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Assigned to Senate APPROP Committee
            2014-03-10, S, Introduced in Senate and read first time
            2014-03-05 H, Transmit to Senate
            2014-03-05 H, House third reading PASSED voting: (56-2-2-0)
            2014-03-03 H, House Cmte. of the Whole action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-02-27, H, House majority caucus: Do pass
            2014-02-27, H, House minority caucus: Do pass
            2014-02-26, H, House RULES Cmte constitutional and proper form.
            2014-02-11, H, Referred to House RULES Committee
            2014-02-19, H, House APPROP Committee action: Do Pass
            2014-02-11, H, Referred to House APPROP Committee
            2014-02-17, H, House EENR Cmte, action: Do Pass Amended
            2014-02-12, H, Referred to House EENR Committee
            2014-02-12, H, House read second time
            2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House RULES Committee
            2014-02-11 H, Assigned to House APPROP Committee
            2014-02-11, H, Assigned to House EENR Committee
            2014-02-11, H, Introduced in House and read first time
            ————————————————————

            Notice ( in the timeline ) that State Representative Karen Fann ( Presoctt ) waited until AFTER this proposed legislation was read for the ‘second’ time in the House and AFTER it had gone to ‘Committee’ before she started adding her proposed ‘amendments’ about having the Board decide who has ‘permission’ to visit the memorial and her attempts to get a clause in there giving some of the widows “first dibs” on buying the property.

            Karen Fann waited until February 14, 2014, before she started CHANGING the original Bill as read ( twice ) before the House.

            Reply

        • Thinking further abut this, I’m thinking that, when that language was inserted:

          “4. THE YARNELL HILL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD SECURES THE NECESSARY PERMISSIONS FOR INDIVIDUALS TO VISIT THE MEMORIAL.”

          it was intended to mean the Board was authorized to secure the necessary permissions for them and people working with them to access the still-owned-by-ArizonaTrustLands area of the site, which required permitting to access, and probably also permission from private landholders, in order to survey and think out the design and the access issues. They talked about that in that meeting earlier this spring.

          Somehow, that phrasing has been twisted, by July, 2015, into:

          “Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

          * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.”

          I just really don’t think that was what was intended in the legislation. The Board was authorized to discuss whether the State Parks should buy the land, or a private entity. They decided State Parks should bid for and, hopefully, purchase the land.

          This whole thing has been completely hijacked. Thus the double-speak. And probably the missing minutes, also.

          Reply

  72. READER ALERT; Critical Information has now been posted on this blog for your edification;

    Marti Reed says

    September 29, 2015 at 5:38 pm

    I’ll check my email as soon as I get back from the 7-11 and maybe also Blakes LottaBurger.

    I’ve just been totally buried in this whole “Arizona State Parks” thing.

    Gary Olson says

    September 29, 2015 at 10:06 pm

    Hmmmm…green chile Blake’s LOTA burger!

    http://www.lotaburger.com/menu/

    They are now moving into Arizona and they are already in Tucson.

    Reply

  73. **
    ** YARNELL FIRE CHIEF ( BEN PALM ) AS ‘GATEKEEPER’

    Reply to Sonny post as September 29, 2015 at 6:29 pm

    >> Sonny said…
    >>
    >> WWTKTT- good question to you. How can a town fire chief Chief Ben Palm
    >> have anything at all to do with STATE PARK LAND- he works for the town
    >> not the state yet is in charge supposedly of who is able to visit the deployment site.

    I believe there are TWO answers to this.

    1) APPOINTMENT TO YARNELL MEMORIAL BOARD AND CHAIRMAN OF
    THE ‘ACCESS’ SUBCOMMITTEE OF THAT BOARD.

    Here is the Arizona Legislature BILL that established the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’, and designated who was supposed to be on it.

    http://www.azleg.gov/legtext/51leg/2r/bills/hb2624h.pdf

    Seat number 6 ( out of 14 total Board seats ) is described as follows…

    6. A REPRESENTATIVE FROM THE YARNELL FIRE DISTRICT, WHO IS APPOINTED BY THE SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

    So that ‘automatically’ became Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm.

    Chief Ben Palm was then asked to be the Chairman of this Board’s ‘Access Subcommitte’… and he agreed.

    According to one of their own press releases, the Board’s complete ‘access committee’ has the following people on it…

    Ben Palm (Chairman)
    Lenora Nelson
    Max Masel
    Bill Boyd
    Jay Ream
    Michael King;

    So Chief Ben Palm has been the one in charge of trying to work out the ‘access’ details for the proposed State Park for this PUBLIC ‘Memorial Board’.

    That can also be construed to mean he is ALREADY “in charge of actual access to the site” and, indeed, both HE and the BOARD seem to think that IS the case.

    This was demonstrated by Gary Olson just now when his request to visit the site got ‘punted’ from Arizona Parks right over to Chief Palm himself.

    The Yarnell Hill Memorial Board is meant to be a TEMPORARY organization, so whatever ‘authoritay’ Chief Ben Palm thinks he has at the moment to control ‘acceess’ to the State Park land is going to have get backed up by some other document at some point after this BOARD evaporates.

    See the next section about ‘Inter-Agency Agreements’.

    2) INTER-AGENCY AGREEMENTS TO HELP CONTROL ACCESS TO THE SITE

    The ‘second’ part of the answer to your question about Chief Ben Palm has to do with something that the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ themselves seemed to be discussing in their own July 31, 2015 meeting.

    The notes about this ‘discussion’ are piss-poor and seem to almost trying to be purposely VAGUE about what was ACTUALLY being discussed…

    …but the minutes indicate that the Board knows fully well this is going to be an ‘unstaffed’ Arizona State PUBLIC Park… and so if they really want to ‘lock down’ access in any way… they are going to need ‘other agencies’ to help them pull it off.

    That means CODIFIED ( written ) ‘agreements’ or ‘contracts’ between Arizona State Parks and various ‘other agencies’ like the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office and ( you guessed it ) the Yarnell Hill Fire Department ( since they are the closest ‘public agency’ to the site itself ).

    Once again… here is the short ‘blurb’ that appeared in the minutes from their July 15, 2015 meeting.

    —————————————————————
    Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

    * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuously monitored and met.
    —————————————————————-

    Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

    But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

    * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

    Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

    Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

    * The family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
    * continuously monitored and met.

    In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

    So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

    They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

    This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

    …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support and ‘cooperation’ it’s gonna take to do some level of ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

    So the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board is probably already at work on some ‘official’ agreement between ‘Arizona Parks’ and the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire Department’ to cooperate fully in making sure the (quote) “family’s requirements are continuously monitored and met”.

    In other words… whoever is the Yarnell Fire Chief would then be the one who has some king of official ‘authoritay’ to kick someone’s ass out of the State Park.

    They can’t make these “Inter-Agency Agreements” in secret.

    At some point… all these DOCUMENTS that might establish these “Inter-Agency Agreements” between ‘Arizona Parks’ and who-knows-who have to made available to the PUBLIC for inspection.

    Reply

  74. Reply to Sonny post on September 29, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    >> Sonny said…
    >>
    >> WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be,
    >> A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that
    >> each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail
    >> going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance
    >> of the men.

    Yes. I have seen that rock pile memorial that you and Joy have already started ( at the last place you saw the men that day ) in many of the publicly released photos.

    I think it’s very fitting and respectful.

    When people visit a place where something tragic took place… there usually comes a moment when you have this strange urge to just DO something. Anything at all.

    I remember when I first visited the Vietnam War Memorial. I found the name of someone I had known back in my hometown there on the wall. I then had that same strange urge to just DO something. One of the ‘attendants’ at the Memorial must have actually noticed that and been used to whatever ‘look’ had on my face at that moment because the next thing I knew he was tapping me on the shoulder and offering me a piece of paper and a lead pencil.

    He said “Would you like to do a ‘rubbing’ of the name? It’s OK. Here… use these”.

    I did exactly that… and then ( for reasons that are really inexplicable ), I actually did ‘feel a little better’. Like I had done SOMETHING ( anything ) to honor the name that was there before me on that wall.

    I still have that rubbing in the same kind of box that we all have. The kind of box with little things in it that even if the house was threatened by Fire… it would be the first ( and only ) BOX that I would grab as I fled the scene.

    >> Sonny also said…
    >>
    >> It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument
    >> is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some
    >> left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument
    >> would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is
    >> if all are allowed to pay their respects.

    I think that’s a great idea, Sonny.

    It would not surprise me if that sort of thing just starts to happen automatically when this ‘park’ opens to the public… but it would be better if it was actually ‘planned for’ by this committee. Over the years… it would become quite something to see.

    I don’t know if you knew about this… but the reason it would be even MORE fitting is because of something Andrew Ashcraft himself would always do.

    His son, Ryder, loved ROCKS.

    Andrew would always pick UP a rock at each fire he went to and bring it HOME to Ryder.

    When Juliann Ashcraft was presented with what was left from the contents of her husband Andrew’s field pack following the Yarnell tragedy… one of the things recovered from the pack was a ROCK from the Yarnell Fire that Andrew had already spotted and picked up that day and was the one he was bringing home to Ryder from Yarnell.

    Juliann Ashcraft tells the story herself far better than anyone else could.

    Here is Juliann Ashcraft’s BLOG entry about her visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne at the start of Juliann’s ‘Spread the Better’ 50 state tour..

    That visit, itself, became about ‘rock hunting’, and there are also some great photos on this same BLOG page.

    http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

    NOTE: ‘Ryder Ashcraft’ is one of Andrew and Juliann’s 4 children. He is the oldest of their 3 sons. He was born on June 4, 2007 and is now 8 years old.

    In Juliann’s own words…
    —————————————————————————
    Collecting rocks has been a meaningful past time in Ryder’s life. It is an activity that he shared with his Dad. Andrew would pick up a rock on each fire he went on as part of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew and bring it home to Ryder. It was a memory for him of the various fires he went on, and it gave Ryder something to look forward to each time that he watched his Daddy leave for another long work trip. When we received Andrew’s belongings after he lost his life in Yarnell, a beautiful gift for Ryder was found in the side pocket of his pack…a rock from the Yarnell Hill Fire that his Dad had picked out just for him before he passed away. Ryder’s Uncle T.J. (Andrew’s big brother) presented that rock to Ryder just as his Daddy would have if he were here. A cherished moment in Ryder’s life.
    —————————————————————————

    So… yea, Sonny.

    ‘Rocks’ are now (already) a ‘part of the legend’ of the ‘Yarnell Hill Tragedy’ and your idea is an excellent one.

    Ryder is only 8 years old.

    He will grow up to be a MAN someday… and imagine how pleased he might be ( as the years go by ) to discover that thousands and thousands of people keep (respectfully) stacking ‘rocks’ at the place where his Daddy died… just like his Daddy used to diligently bring rocks HOME to HIM.

    I just hope this can happen NEAR where those men died… and not have to be in some ‘other’ place and be just an ongoing monument to how ‘the public’ isn’t even ALLOWED to get ‘near’ that place.

    I hope that anyone who feels the urge to ‘stack a rock’ ( for Andrew, or ANY of those departed souls ) and wants it to be NEAR the spot where they died…

    …doesn’t have to THROW THE ROCK just to get it there.

    Reply

  75. I have some really good news for everyone. I got an email from Chief Ben Palm and he assures me the GMIHC Memorial Park will soon be open for VISITORS!

    From ben palm

    To [email protected]

    Gary,

    Ken from Arizona State Parks sent me you name as someone who wanted to visit the Deployment Site. We will not be able to take you into this area as it’s closed. June 30, 2016 is the tentative date for the Site to be open for visitors.

    Yarnell Fire Department

    Chief Ben Palm

    (928) 427-6578-office

    PO Box 581

    Yarnell, AZ. 85362

    Reply

    • A reader just asked me by email, “Just read IM. Why didn’t Ken from state parks tell you it was closed? Was it the chief’s decision?”

      Which I think are valid questions that others may have and so I am posting them here along with my answer. Which was;

      “The park area isn’t closed to everyone, it is open to some people depending on who you are and your credentials. Ken who is their PIO, told me that his role is to take the contact information, my reasons for wanting to visit and then “run it up the chain” for a decision of whether I could visit the park area or not. Apparently, I did not meet their criteria of worthiness. It’s a hoot…except it is really sad and disturbing.

      And I said I was a former wildland firefighter who was writing a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire and I wanted to hike around the general deployment site to view it and photograph it.”

      Reply

      • Here are my answers to another viewers comments and questions..

        “Yes, it is a bunch of bullshit, no I didn’t buy it, and no I don’t expect to ever get Palm’s permission to visit the site and yes, I agree that was his way of saying I will NEVER get permission to visit the site. “

        Reply

        • “No, neither one (not the State Parks Dept., or the Yarnell Hill Fire Dept.), up the chain of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park BOARD! They are making the decision who gets to visit the park!

          Reply

          • “I think they really want to, but I think the IM is not the only place people are or will be getting fired up. I think (I hope) in the end they are defeated, but they are going to fight for it. Maybe when I do go, I will go down and wait to be arrested for being there, won’t that be an experience? It will make a great story for the book that I will never write on the YHF.”

            Reply

    • That planned “Dedication/Opening” DATE ( June 30, 2016 ) matches the following entry from the July 31, 2015 meeting minutes of the ‘Yarnell Memorial Site’ Board…

      ————————————————————————
      5. Discuss the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Project Timeline.

      * Chairman Black introduced the project timeline as a draft and that deadlines
      provided goals to shoot for to keep project momentum.

      * Renee Gillespie briefed the Board regarding critical dates to hit in order to keep
      the project on track for a dedication ceremony on June 30 2016.

      * Discussion was had that Arizona State Parks would construct and install the
      project components
      ————————————————————————

      The ‘larger-than-life’ bronze statue of TLTNTSATD ( The Lookout They Needed To Stay Alive That Day ) won’t be finished or installed by that date, according to other notes in the minutes, but that’s not supposed to hold up the Dedication Ceremony.

      >> Chief Ben Palm said…
      >>
      >> “We will not be able to take you into this area as it’s closed”

      By WHOSE authority… and with WHAT ( new ) document and/or closure order?

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> I always went with being Special Agent Friendly or Dumb Ass that needed
      >> things explained to me very slowly and in simple language.

      If you wanted to stick with “Option 2’… you COULD ask a followup question…

      Thank you for you reply.
      It is my understanding that whatever Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders that were in effect for that land became null and void when the property was sold to Arizona State Parks the morning of June 30, 2015. Can you point me to the NEW document which now also officially establishes the land as being ‘closed’ to hiking?

      Reply

      • Were you listening to the conversation I had with the nice lady at the Arizona State Parks who works in a senior advisory role that I was transferred to just as soon as my questions got a little bit hard to answer?

        No…I know you weren’t, because you would have learned how I morph from being Mr. Friendly Dumb Ass to a former federal agent conducting an adversarial interview with a subject who wants to conceal the truth from me.

        That is one of the questions I asked in a series of questions that pinned her down further and further and further and further, right up to the point she broke and said I will have someone call you back. They haven’t called me back yet.

        The nice lady’s name is Nancy Garcia. Her email address is [email protected]

        And she works for the Arizona State Land Department. The question she finally refused to answer is; Does Arizona State Land Commissioner Vanessa P. Hickman have the statutory authority to issue a Closure Order for Arizona State Park land?”

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing just because I know you will get a kick out of it, here is the follow up email I sent to Ken Sliwa, who is the Arizona State Parks PIO with a more specific question. Ken hasn’t gotten back to me…yet.

          gary olson

          Sep 28 at 11:29 AM

          [email protected]

          Hi Ken,

          I just went to the Yarnell Hill Memorial Fund site that you referred me to review the Closure Order that we discussed. The only Closure Order I found on the site it the one that was signed by Vanessa Hickman, State Land Commissioner on July 12, 2013. Is this the current Closure Order or is there another one?

          Thanks, Gary

          Bunch of FUCKING amateurs!

          Reply

          • Here’s what really pisses ME off.

            We are continually seeing groups of people here ( From the top levels on down ) who seem to all be humming the same ‘mantra’.

            RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

            I will bet you won’t hear back from anyone.

            Why?… because you just nailed them to the wall with their own hammer.

            I will bet money that in all technical and legal aspects… there is NO CURRENT VALID CLOSURE ORDER that pertains to the south half of section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West.

            Chief Ben Palm ( Just a Yarnell Fire Chief ) can SAY in emails “I’m sorry… the land is closed” all day long.

            That doesn’t make it a FACT.

            There has to have been some NEW kind of document that exists which is the OPPOSITE of…

            “This land is your land… this land is my land… from California… to the New York Island. This land was made for you and me”.

            There has to be some NEW document/order approved PUBLICLY by the Arizona State Parks Department that says that piece of land they bought is ‘under construction’, or something, and is currently CLOSED TO ALL PUBLIC ACCESS.

            They don’t have it.
            They KNOW they don’t have it.

            And even if they DID… it has to be POSTED.

            There are no ‘yellow lines’ painted on the ground out there like the Yavapai County Tax Assessor’s Google-Earth based program shows.

            If they want someone off the new PARK LAND until they declare it ‘officially open’… then it still has to be MARKED and POSTED that way or you can’t expect anyone to know if their on ‘closed land’… or not.

            Reply

            • And speaking of…

              RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US

              That’s (ultimately) the reason they are struggling to even build this ‘Memorial’ in the first place.

              If those men had followed the RULES of their OWN profession… there would still be nothing in that Box Canyon but the burned up remains of all the rattlesnakes that Joy relocated there.

              Maybe it’s in the water there in the great and wonderful state of Arizona.

              RULES ARE FOR OTHER PEOPLE… NOT US.

              Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing, Nancy Garcia’s title is;

                  APIS Manager (INFORMATION SYSTEMS) but right now apparently she is the Acting Admin & Budget Director

                  Her telephone number is;

                  602 542-2665

                  Reply

  76. Joy asked, TOPIC: Max Masel

    QUESTION:

    Did you agree with me. Straight shooter and explains things thorough?

    Comment/REPLY

    I never got that far because the Arizona Land Department told me they no longer owned that land and therefore were not concerned/involved with it any more. I think everybody including Max has been giving you the; first you talk to Mr. White, then to Mr.. Green, then to Mr.. Black, then to Mr.. Brown and then you get the run-around.

    Reply

    • Sounds like a game of clue your reply Gary … where is that candlestick … I know where the rope is…around my neck it seems…Mr. Green…soft smiles.

      Reply

      • Topic: Karen Fann
        Statement: In 2016 I will address this topic but not feeling at ease currently but I have ran into folks who know her.

        Topic: Marti Reed.
        Comment: Check your email.

        Topic: YHF and its aftermath
        Comment: thank you to someone for mentioning a belief I also have…I have no doubt by the way the initial moment the men were located 6-30-13 to meeting loved ones of the GMHS and firefighters/friends of the men…etc…that there is people amongst the world trying to create that this website is all about conspiracy theorists when in reality these folks doing that are trying to use MY tax paying dollar to make their outcome..THEIR OUTCOME…I do have a concern on that…also what person placed Chief Ben Palm in spot he is in versus posting a job listing…I learned ALOT from a relative of one of these folks last December 2014—Karen Fann, Chief Ben Palm, Willis and so this relative gave me inside information that I know they probably should not have…especially during a time I was getting rumors on one of the people from locals and ex/current YFD folks…this family member enjoyed us so much because we are the voice for those he cannot be (ODD coming from a relative huh)…in that talk I learned I M folks have been awful hard on Willis when they should learn the information before doing such…it was also this relative who gave us heads up before it happened kind of thing…
        this relative who is on the in of one of the above has been very helpful to help me understand this fire and the folks who were on it to the aftermath.

        SIDE NOTE:
        At the end of 1976 a movie was released—Lyman Dayton’s directed BAKER’S HAWK.
        The movie parallels YHF aftermath in the matter of the Weaver Mountains.
        Especially how I am singled out.
        I mean in reality who was the one finding evidence on the Weavers yet that person never got YCSO to
        serve an original afidivat with that topic on it but I did. If I just let it go and did no hearing than I was
        saying it is okay and it is not okay; the “mob-like” behaviors that has been shown from different organizations like YCSO deputy who singled me out even though Sonny was present on December 1, 2014—why just me.
        in the movie…
        The little boy said “Dad, you should sign…get the bad folks out” and when his father
        said “Okay son so me and the good guys we are going over to your friend’s Jeremy to burn his house down.”
        kid replied “But Pa, Jeremy is good people.” …you see you give the righteous man that kind of gathering,
        things can get out of hand and who has the capability to restrict a man or woman but someone who should not even
        be in that position due to obvious factors—conflict of interest—
        On July 12, 2015 a law was put into ORDER restricting 320 acres…it did not say in the ORDER…fire community or extended
        family or guests…I asked directly to DEFINE the law and I was
        told NOONE is allowed on the 320 acres except the investigators assigned to the YHF and the families could be at the area the men died only.
        I said can I go with a family member…you see I have been asked to go over time to go to the site but only went with OSHA.
        They said no, noone can go yet I turned around and explained how I addressed the grey area to YCSO Sgt. Ashby and another one above her and
        he said and she said well, yes there is a grey area. Chief Ben Palm is the suppose person to go to if you want permission to go out there.
        I went above him to who is in control of the order to ask the questions. What I have learned is even if I am living my own life noone can show me
        the way but some will try especially ones out for votes and monies. The law is the law. I would like you to NAME the person Gary who told you the
        fire community and misc. are allowed out there. Did you speak to Trespassing Officer of state land—now that my friend is an interesting person I spoke to—I think you should call the YCSO Sgt Ashby and see what their current rules are on topic being its out of jurisdiction on the map layer of assessor and it lies with park ranger…call park ranger…see what is the latest news on topic…I will go right now and get certified as a firefighter just so I can walk out there if that is true.
        I will go with Prescott Fire Dept. as you said is required but that is not facts because MANY of hikes we saw from the top DID NOT have Prescott or YFD
        present for others hikes. Another GREY area. It is my character and decency that has kept me “cool” yet let me make it clear THEIR AGENDA—it’s hand-writing on the wall. It
        stinks..it’s rotten. Like in the movie—quote—“I’m as popular as the plague.”—-Burl Ives reminds me of Sonny in the movie…we both have such a way with animals.
        When that woman Maryann said her Tennessee Walker was blind in one eye due to injury and was a rearer/bucker…she wanted that in bill of sale written yet do know
        in all the times we rode the horse “Faith” never bucked or reared. She had a serious eye injury yet she was not blind just not as able. As the desert walker I
        want the world to know you can restrict man from me but don’t pull me away from my terrain and wildlife. Many homeowners could not have cleaned up their destroyed by YHF
        homes if it was not for us because not only did we help day in and out on clean up but we are the ones that buried burnt up wildlife and alot too…the stench was
        awful in that Summer heat. We were the one for FREE relocating wildlife and skunks and rattlers for people…I know I am MORE than a horse whisperer–I am very
        connected to the animal world. I use to know every animal from ground to sky before the fire and limited in access to know that after because of some horseshit
        law made up yet I have to just hike elsewhere to appease a few…I have mended animals and set them free…I have trained wild and domestic animals. I had a lady last
        Summer 2014 when Sonny was in Montana she asked me to sign a contract to watch their feral barn cat while a family member was in the hospital and wanted me to keep it caged
        so it would not run off. I told her I would sign contract with reality I won’t keep cat caged if it does not want it. She was nervous by my comment yet I am a honest
        straight shooter. She left and it was an extreme feral cat and biter and scratcher and hisser- a genuine barn feral cat. I had to video the moment of magic to show the lady. I took a moment and
        looked cat straight in eyes as it hissed and swat and wanted to bite and explained within one hour I am taking the matted down cat and giving it a bath than I am going to
        blow dry the cat and remove the fleas and bugs in a non chemical invasive way called a very fine tuned flea comb. Than we are going to lay on back patio bed and watch the
        stars under the moonlit sky and relax and enjoy the noises of the desert. At first attempt to pick her up he went for the flesh and I removed hand and said okay let’s
        talk and get to know another and I began to explain how I use to spend all my time in the desert helping wildlife that some camp in the backyard. The cat was so fixated
        on being mean and hissing and swatting that I told the cat direct that may work and scare others but I have been right in front of a mountain lion and bobcat and wolves and showed
        the cat the videos of me saving a bobcat and I showed it five times than the cat is looking at me like this girl ain’t right…not afraid of my hiss or my bite attempts
        and just speaking to me like I am her friend. I will let her think we are okay and let her hold me and the cat did. I held it as the video timed it 20 minutes than I put her
        in cage and filled the bath up with warm water and milk and I got my bathing suit on to learn I am a fat person and note to self never go public in this as I once did…
        got the cat and played the hiss game for 8 minutes, held it for 11 than off to bath time. I let cat down and explained I would be stepping in water first than placing her
        in the water with towel over my leg in water in case she went nuts. The warm holding and the warm water were welcomed. I was so shocked HOW welcomed. I spent 45 minutes
        washing the cat good. with 3 sets of new water. Not one problem. As I went to turn blow dryer on I was concerned the noise would freak the cat yet again the cat just laid on my
        lap while I dried her. I sent all the videos to the owner. She did not believe her eyes. She said she was furious when I disobeyed her the very same night and said I
        should of never done that. Than she said she was coming to get the cat in cage first thing in the morning. She got to my home and saw her cat lying on the leather couch
        asleep at peace and she said where is my cat and I said that is your cat. She said she watched the videos and was more focused on being mad at me than to see what really
        just happened…this cat she said was NEVER held ever not by her or anyone. she always had to cage it to move it. I picked the cat up and told her the cat wanted to
        be held all along yet her trust was broken early in her life with her enviroment. Would you like to hold her. That lady laid on my couch in weeping tears rubbing the cat
        and holding her with such love for many hours. I can source the lady to Mesa, Arizona and can back up every detail I just typed. I have something with animals so deep that I in front
        of Frankie Serros removed a jumping cholla out of a wild mojave rattlesnake’s eyes and Frankie almost passed out watching me. I have taken wings of birds and mended them…
        I have been in caves to come upon a bear as well a den of rattlers…you ever put 5 rattlers in snake box before—not easy but I have done it. I had to to get out of cave.
        They were not visible going in but they were on way out…I think what the powers to be did to me was wrong to make me their isolated target when I have such a love
        for that terrain as I do…in a way because they did that and because I was asked from all investigators and Elizabeth what do I want to see from this fire aftermath and I
        replied the proper materials be returned to family members and other firefighters…people who have missing elements come forward and disect the shit out of the cell records from that day…
        make sure no future firefighter goes out on a fire with faulty radio or faulty fire tools and LISTEN TO Jim Roth/David Turbyfill and make sure the gag ends where
        BR/Paul Morin can speak freely as well as CYFD and Sun City and CLVD and etc….Because of all the shadiness I seen…probably better I stay away from a terrain like that…
        too many tragedies happened before the 19 died there so maybe it is God’s way of protecting me.
        It did feel like how Sonny’s family over by Lordsburg felt when they imminent domained his whole family for the benefit of another…Dr. Ted Putnam felt I would of been
        such a valued asset to that Memorial Board but my reply to him and the world HOW can I feel free to share when the very members of that board were okay to what was done
        to me. How would they have felt hearing the rumors stir to ask the person direct and have him say he did not owe me any explanation to than keep hearing it even from current
        and old YFD people too so I don’t know but to me some way or some day I have to learn to accept the things I cannot change (Reinhold Niebuhr)…as you can see slow on accepting it when I see folks still going out there obvious not related and not fire community… this other board of theirs are for the ones with
        PTSD following the fire yet as the EYEWITNESS to the YHF look at the support I have been shown when all I have done is help all try to process this fire and properly assess it.

        GOD BLESS WHO GARY? Did you say AMERICA?
        It does not feel very American to not be able to walk amongst this land…Sonny told me it is a part of the Constitution

        another side note: man in Yarnell library heard more details on these fire dept emblem signs and gpsing all the mines—after one visit he said it is not for him…curious why???

        Another side note:
        Can you our normal folks who post here…state like this:

        Joy A Collura eyewitness to YHF; last civilian hikers to see the 20 GMHS on Weavers & avid hiker to Arizona and had been pioneering it since 2011.
        why I blog on IM? It is a healing tool a place for me to express how I feel after the horrific afternoon of 6-30-13. I have no placement of making movies or books nor have any agenda or angles…just do not like how its been glazed since the SAIR came out…

        I have an interested legal person (not James Belanger but he was very helpful in times we communicated earlier this year) as well asked for some back East person to peak here and it will help newcomer know WHO IS WHO…and why you keep coming back to I M?

        thank you.

        Reply

        • Also remember I have been on the laptop to have these kind of messages come up and delete all files on laptop so someone from day one has screwed with the files hence why I KEEP NOTHING near me Gary…no news on that person if in town or not—left message though.

          SEE MESSAGE ON SCREEN I GOT NOW AND PRIOR TIMES:

          !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
          What happened to your files ?
          All of your files were protected by a strong encryption with RSA-2048.
          More information about the encryption keys using RSA-2048 can be found here: ht tp ://en.wikipedia.o r g/wiki/RSA_(cryptosystem)

          What does this mean ?
          This means that the structure and data within your files have been irrevocably changed, you will not be able to work with them, read them or see them,
          it is the same thing as losing them forever, but with our help, you can restore them.

          How did this happen ?
          Especially for you, on our server was generated the secret key pair RSA-2048 – public and private.
          All your files were encrypted with the public key, which has been transferred to your computer via the Internet.
          Decrypting of your files is only possible with the help of the private key and decrypt program, which is on our secret server.

          What do I do ?
          Alas, if you do not take the necessary measures for the specified time then the conditions for obtaining the private key will be changed.
          If you really value your data, then we suggest you do not waste valuable time searching for other solutions because they do not exist.

          For more specific instructions, please visit your personal home page, there are a few different addresses pointing to your page below:
          1. h tt p://d jru34dnd.lgk749kch8ej.c o m/82B5BC7A3AAA3
          2. h tt p://ks53kc7s.td45hdrtabc23.c o m/82B5BC7A3AAA3
          3. ht tp s://alcov44uvcwkrend.onion.to/82B5BC7A3AAA3

          Reply

          • Joy,
            the message you get is because of Ransomware like the CryptoWall Virus. Basically they encrypt your files so you can’t get to them, then demand money to un-encrypt them. Googles what to do, but not sure how successful recovery of your files will be.

            …and after reading your stories, especially the animal ones, I think you might actually be an Angel sent to guide lost souls on this planet .

            Gary, Bob and WTKTT,
            I have a concern that every time here on IM (in PUBLIC) one of you points and says “Hell – I see a gaping hole in your plans to lock this thing down” (and there are a lot of holes), that THEY will move to plug them. And that’s the difference, everything done here by you is PUBLIC, no moving behind the scenes, no hiding away meeting minutes, or failing to publish your thoughts (like certain court records). This is a great experiment!

            The twists and turns of the memorial board/site/permission, I would expect to read in fiction. It’s so insular! Something smells, it smells bad!

            (Gary – you’re sounding more like Walter Sobchak with every post)

            Reply

        • I’ll check my email as soon as I get back from the 7-11 and maybe also Blakes LottaBurger.

          I’ve just been totally buried in this whole “Arizona State Parks” thing.

          Reply

      • Also remember I have been on the laptop to have these kind of messages come up and delete all files on laptop so someone from day one has screwed with the files hence why I KEEP NOTHING near me Gary…no news on that person if in town or not—left message though.

        SEE MESSAGE ON SCREEN I GOT NOW AND PRIOR TIMES:

        !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
        What happened to your files ?
        All of your files were protected by a strong encryption with RSA-2048.
        More information about the encryption keys using RSA-2048 can be found here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSA_(cryptosystem)

        What does this mean ?
        This means that the structure and data within your files have been irrevocably changed, you will not be able to work with them, read them or see them,
        it is the same thing as losing them forever, but with our help, you can restore them.

        How did this happen ?
        Especially for you, on our server was generated the secret key pair RSA-2048 – public and private.
        All your files were encrypted with the public key, which has been transferred to your computer via the Internet.
        Decrypting of your files is only possible with the help of the private key and decrypt program, which is on our secret server.

        What do I do ?
        Alas, if you do not take the necessary measures for the specified time then the conditions for obtaining the private key will be changed.
        If you really value your data, then we suggest you do not waste valuable time searching for other solutions because they do not exist.

        For more specific instructions, please visit your personal home page, there are a few different addresses pointing to your page below:
        1. http://djru34dnd.lgk749kch8ej.com/82B5BC7A3AAA3
        2. http://ks53kc7s.td45hdrtabc23.com/82B5BC7A3AAA3
        3. https://alcov44uvcwkrend.onion.to/82B5BC7A3AAA3

        Reply

  77. Every time this discussion of locking out the Deployment Site come up My Hart hurts and I become very sad.
    That is not what Fire Memorial sites are about. They are about a place dedicated to the Fallen a place to study what happened and why. A place to evaluate lessons learned and to reflect on those that died there.
    I reflect on how long it took the Forest service to allow Crosses at the Rattle Snake Fire site 1953 till 2004. The Fire crews prior to that went there in the 100’s to discuss and study what happened way before any Crosses were installed. Now there is a full educational location across from the site and a hiking trail that goes from a parking lot to the site of the Crosses.
    The South Canyon Fire is the same why should the Yarnell hill fire be different?
    The Families should be proud to display the spot and allow all to come feel humble and understand what happened and reflect on the magnitude of the 19 that died a first time full Hot Shot Crew.
    The Film that was just shared by Marti on South Canyon is absolutely why this need to be an open site. Its where they Died its not a Grave site it is a site to reflect and go back over the 10 and 18 study Safety and how it helps in making decisions on Fires it is a reality site a reality check.
    It is State Park Lands now let it be used by all the Public not just a few.

    Reply

    • Well…I am not going to be as polite as Bob. In fact, I am going to be just a little bit bombastic. The Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park Board are OUT OF THEIR FUCKING MINDS! WTKTT is sending up the emergency flares and everybody had better start paying attention, including Arizona Governor Ducey and that collection of idiots they call the Arizona State Legislature.

      I intend to blog more about this later in the day since I just woke up, (it’s only a little after 9am so it’s pretty early for me to wake up on a Saturday, but then, everyday is a Saturday for me) but I want to start with this little gem.

      Stupid Governor Ducey is just about to have his rights taken away by that Arizona Road Lizard Crazy head of the Arizona State Parks Sue Black who that collection of idiots they call the Arizona State Legislature confirmed.

      There is no provision in the Boards plan to ALLOW THEM TO VISIT THE DEPLOYMENT SITE UNLESS THEY INVOKE SOME KIND OF ASSHOLE POLITICIAN EXEMPTJION FROM THE BOARDS CRAZY PROPOSSED RULES…ARE YOU FUCKING JOKING? Yesterday I was worried about Joy’s rights, today the plan is to take away almost everybody’s rights.

      WTKTT is absolutely right, somebody needs to step in and put some adult leaders on that fucking Board so it is not run by the private agenda’s of a few “Widows.”

      Last night I was talking about greater access to the White House for citizens, today I would like to point out there is greater access for the public (as in there IS access, as oppose to NO access) to the World Trade Center Memorial, the Oklahoma City Murrow Federal Building Memorial, the Pentagon Memorial and the Shanksville Memorial Site where Flight 93 that was full of American Hero’s was flown into the ground, just to name a few.

      You taxpaying Citizens of Arizona need to wake up and smell the coffee the Widows are brewing for you!

      Reply

      • I don’t think this second “Hail Mary Plan” (or maybe third or fourth or fifth, all things considered) is gonna work.

        I’ve been searching and searching all day for anything definitive regarding Arizona State Parks and “memorial parks,” and I haven’t found a thing. Apparently this is unprecedented.

        There is nothing nowhere, at least that I could find, that there are any rules that make what somebody calls an “Arizona State Memorial park” any different from the rules that apply to “regular” Arizona State Parks.

        Unless I missed something. (LOL like I did downstream a couple of times).

        There CAN be special rules regarding cemetaries, i.e. “memorial parks” but memorial is just in the name of the cemetary, and so far Arizona State Parks doesn’t own any “State Memorial Parks,” except for this new-fangled GMHS Memorial State Park.

        And, by the way, the original name brought to the State Parks Board was “Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park.”

        From the June 25,2015 Minutes of the Arizona State Parks Board:

        http://azstateparks.com/board/downloads/minutes/2015/ASPB_Minutes_06-24-15Final.pdf

        “F. BOARD ACTION ITEMS
        a. Consider for Approval pursuant to A.R.S. § 41-519.01 (C)(2) the
        Recommendation by the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board to name the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site the Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park.”

        Until this then happened:

        “Director Black introduced Deborah Pfingston who is on the Design subcommittee and mother of one of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Amanda Marsh who is the wife of the Granite Mountain Supervisor suggested the families be contacted to submit appropriate names for the memorial.

        She said the families submitted names and voted on them. The Top 3 choices were Granite Mountain Hotshots State Park, Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial Park and Granite Mountain Hotshots 19 Memorial Park. She said the families were honored to be asked to be given the opportunity to do this.

        Ms. Daggett asked if the families had objections to Memorial Park or State Park. Ms. Pfingston said it was almost a dead tie for either choice.

        Director Black said this would be the first Memorial Park in the system. Ms. Daggett said she would like to see State Park in the name. Chairman Cardin concurred.

        Mr. Everett motioned to name the Park the “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park.” Ms. Daggett seconded the motion. The motion passed.”

        So I can’t find anything that says how this PUBLIC park should be allowed to be managed any differently from any other PUBLIC Arizona State Park, as in some kind of holy sacred ground that some family members think they should be able to control the PUBLIC’S access to, just because they decided to tack the name “Memorial” onto it.

        There’s nothing like that in the set-up of the Arizona State Parks system. NADA.

        As Bob wrote, it it NOT a cemetery.

        And that FACT matters.

        Reply

        • Oh, and just to FURTHER set the record straight.

          From Arizona State Parks June 30, 2015 Press Release,

          “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Officially Purchased by Arizona State Parks ”

          http://azstateparks.com/press/2015/PR_06-30-15.html

          ““This site will serve as a lasting memorial to the brave hotshots who gave their lives to protect their community,” said Governor Ducey. “While we can never truly repay our debt to these heroes, we can – and should – honor them every day. Arizona is proud to offer the public a space where we can pay tribute to them, their families and all of our firefighters and first responders for generations to come.”

          Arizona State Parks Executive Director Sue Black said, “Arizona State Parks is proud and humbled to add Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park to our family.” Black, who concurrently serves as Chairman of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, continued, “We look forward to working together to open this Park to the public.””

          Nobody has PUBLICLY said ANYTHING about closing it down to the PUBLIC.

          All the machinations going on inside the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board (including probably even more inside the invisible missing meetings minutes) as well as inside the heads of “The Widows”™ notwithstanding.

          This dog ain’t gonna hunt when it goes PUBLIC.

          Now a confession. In July I bought a white “BE BETTER”/”Yarnell19” bracelet, and have been proudly wearing it ever since. I took it off this weekend during these conversations. And, oh yes, the mysterious rash on my right arm, where I was wearing it, disappeared, when I did.

          Namaste.

          Reply

        • Oh, and just a further little note.

          While digging back into this, I found myself reading the comments in the Prescott Daily Courier articles regarding this purchase and designation.

          They weren’t too supportive, to say the least. Of course they weren’t written by wildland firefighters who understand the TRADITIONS and REASONS for setting apart these kinds of sites.

          But still. When these people find out that their tax-payer dollars are most likely gonna be going to maintaining this “Memorial State Park” that is, as far as I can see, ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public (except for the access trail, which is still on State Trust Land) they’re gonna be even MORE pissed off.

          They’re ALREADY calling it “politicians using this tragedy to milk the public’s dollars to exploit this already grim enough tragedy to further their political fortunes, oh, and also. the families are doing it too.”

          Reply

          • Correction.

            I wrote: “, as far as I can see, ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public (except for the access trail, which is still on State Trust Land) .

            That’s where the crunch comes. It’s not ESSENTIALLY completely closed to the public, given all that I’ve written above.

            It’s just that, via the minutes (or at least the ones that have been published) of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Board indicate that that outcome is exactly what they are trying to accomplish.

            Reply

          • You have it right. Sad thing is that those we have to enforce these ridiculous mandates do so. We need both law enforcement and juries to follow common sense and not unjust laws.

            Reply

        • Maybe I am kin to Ms. Black…I am half black.
          Really.
          My mom is BLACK and my dad is GILLIGAN.
          My mother’s maiden name.

          Reply

        • And I have to say, this whole google search and ramble of mine is connected to WTKTT writing downstream, on SEPTEMBER 28, 2015 AT 10:18 PM, regarding the Two-Step Plan to Control Access:

          “1. Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Report from Arizona State Parks.

          – Arizona State Parks Deputy Director Kelly Moffitt reported on the successful June 30th auction at the courthouse in Prescott. He stated that the property is now a “MEMORIAL State Park’”. Also, that it is Arizona State Parks desire to be sensitive to all project stakeholders including the families, local communities, and the fire fighting communities. Arizona State Parks Board has voted to call this park the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park, and it is Arizona State Parks interest to help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders. Arizona State Parks Development Section will help review of all plans and provide support to the Board and Design Sub-Committee. Arizona Department of Administration will review construction plans. Arizona Department of Transportation is moving forward with their support of the project.

          What I am saying in all of this, and in response to that, is that I haven’t been able to find ANYWHERE any precedent for this or any legal or statutory support for deeming that, by just attaching the word “MEMORIAL” to the name of an Arizona State Park, that gives ANYONE any kind of different and unprecedented power to “help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders.”
          “

          Reply

          • Marti… see this new parent comment up above…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309271

            The actual legislation that was PASSED and signed into LAW appears to give this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Site Board” the ‘authority’ to decide who can or cannot ‘Visit the Memorial’.

            The ORIGINAL legislation, as introduced to the Arizona House of Representatives on February 11, 2014, had NO SUCH LANGUAGE or provisions in it about this Board having any kind of decision making power with regards to ‘permissions to visit the memorial’.

            It was State Representative Karen Fann ( Prescott ) ALONE who then added an AMENDMENT to the legislation adding that ‘responsibility’ to this proposed PUBLIC “Yarnell Memorial Site Board”.

            It is also known that at this time… there was this “small group of widows” who had Karen Fann’s ear.

            That ‘amendment’ that Karen Fann ‘added’ to the original legislation actually survived in both the House and the Senate and made it into the final Bill signed by the Governor.

            Reply

    • Exactly Bob–We live within a half mile of the site. There are signs at the entrance of Glen Isla on the public street and just off Highway 89 stating no access to the Incident Site. Well that is a crock since you can enter that way–although Helms won’t let you through his property and I can well understand that—but you can also go up to Candy Lane just above my Rock Cabin and legally cross private land to come in above Helms without disturbing them nor having to cross their personal property. There are a few people in the area that do not mind your crossing their private land to get up to the two track. Alternatively you can do all State land if you go down to where the white elephant is painted on 89 between Yarnell and Congress along 89–you have to be going down the hill to see it better, although I think you might see it well enough going up. The up and down roads are separate on 89. You would need to pull off the highway maybe a quarter mile down from the elephant–on the left is a graded out place between the two up and down highways. If you hike straight up from where the elephant is you will be on state land all the way to the two track. Do be a good hiker and in good shape since you will be hopping boulders and on a very steep incline.

      Yes, it is completely unconstitutional to allow certain private parties to control state and federal lands simply because relatives died there. That as you say is not their grave yard and if the country allows that we are looking forward to setting aside properties for private use every time a particular person or group dies in an area. Truthfully this should be contested or else everyone that looses a person be treated equally. If a Cop or Fireman is now deceased due to whatever reason we would need to declare that area of death as a memorial site with no access unless some Captain or Fire Chief in charge determines who he will allow to access and if they have proper credentials and relationship to the deceased.

      Consider that now because we have plenty of sleeper cells in the US, we will likely be setting aside many more of these sites. Spots the common citizen used to be able to access will be off limits. Well in fact all state land here in Arizona at least is off limits to the common citizen unless he pays a robbery fee to the State of Arizona so he can walk across this land. Most do not know this law and when they do find it out are angered that such thing could have happened in this USA. As a member of two veterans organizations I have found that most will tell you that it is a bull shit law that they would never pay to walk on public lands. Yet the Sheriff Department and certain State land officials will site you if you do not have that pass and you will then be robbed of a greater fee and incarcerated if the judge decides he doesn’t like your attitude.

      Someone will say Sonny if you don’t like such a garbage law then why don’t you challenge it or vote in someone to change it. Well old Sonny does not have the thousands to challenge such a law and voting Republican or Democrat is just about equal–we are in the New World Order of change and that means let the wild fires burn and there are about 6 billion too many people on this planet according to our new think. Maybe they are right, but I wonder how they are going to get everybody cooped up into urban areas and then who will be the 144 thousand chosen ones? I think that is a given number in most churches even though that was decided 2,000 years ago. One thing is make it too expensive to walk on public lands and impossible to camp for any length of time. Bring in more sleeper cell types to help reduce future populations–it has been said by CIA and FBI that it is a matter of time before these people will do great damage to our cities. Makes sense since backward countries like Pakistan already have nukes and plenty of the likes of them hate our country.

      Makes sense to protect our young men–especially those like wild fire men. We might need them — if they do not become too indoctrinated in the new think.

      Reply

  78. This is a response to everything that WTKTT has reported below. It looks to me like Joy’s rights will soon be a moot point. Amanda Marsh is getting ready with the full cooperation of a lot of people who have guilty consciences, to take away almost everybody’s rights to visit the Arizona State Park they are paying for. God Bless America. As we keep saying, you can’t make this stuff up.

    Reply

    • Well…I am sitting here watching White House (which I have visited) Down on TV and it occurred to me that there is going to be greater access to the White House for the average tax paying citizen than there will be to the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park if what WTKTT has written below comes to pass.

      Reply

      • It’s been a long day on airplanes and punch-drunk tired… but I can’t help wondering how in the hell the people who want to ‘lock this down’ think they have any chance in hell of actually pulling it off?

        I mean… what would be the REALITY here?

        You hike 2+ miles uphill and you ’emerge’ on top of the ridge at the point where that ‘alternate escape route’ took that turn to the east and headed towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.

        Bzzzt. Still won’t be able to see the ‘little white crosses’ from there.

        So now you are ‘allowed’ to schlep farther north ( but only on the two-track )… to what?… the spot where Sonny found the pink tape/flagging?

        Once the manzanita grows back you won’t be able to see jack-shit from THERE, either.

        So they figure out a way for the ‘public’ to stay on the ridge so they can look down and ‘see’ the little white crosses from somewhere up there.

        Then what?

        Is that where the large-than-life-size statue of the lookout-they-needed-to-stay-alive is actually going to be?

        Then what?

        Will there be a little BIO-SENSOR Kiosk there that you put your thumb into ( or a little glass jar with cotton swabs for the inside of your cheek )… and then they do a DNA scan and the kiosk checks it against a database of DNA samples from anyone on the planet who *might* be related to one of the men who burned to death?

        OR… you have to scan your ‘red-card’ like it’s a gas-pump card reader and it will know if your red-card is still ‘active’ and that qualifies you as a “member of the firefighting community”?

        It’s more than laughable.

        It’s just SAD.

        Just make it a nice, respectful place to visit… and try to find a way to keep the $100,000 ( a piece? ) bronze statues from disappearing from the Arizona boondock… and call it a day.

        Reply

        • I’m just gonna leave this article here from history – about 500 ramblers taking part in a Mass Trespass, that changed a whole lot of laws here in the UK;
          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_trespass_of_Kinder_Scout

          So hypothetically speaking, once the memorial site is in place, what would happen to someone who was say from…outta-town, ya know, maybe another country, perhaps didn’t know any different, wandered up to the deployment site? What would/could actually happen to them?

          It just doesn’t make any sense… and I mean no disrespect at all, but WTC Memorial Pools don’t have a two mile exclusion zone around them, it’s there for everyone, a real tribute to those that were killed.

          Reply

          • Reply to Otis post on September 29, 2015 at 4:52 am

            >> Otis said…
            >>
            >> So hypothetically speaking, once the memorial site is in
            >> place, what would happen to someone who was say
            >> from…outta-town, ya know, maybe another country,
            >> perhaps didn’t know any different, wandered up to
            >> the deployment site?
            >>
            >> What would/could actually happen to them?

            Good question.

            It’s an interesting legal question as to whether any member of the ‘public’ can ever actually be accused of ‘trespassing’ on a piece of land that they are ( legally speaking ) part-owner of. A PUBLIC park.

            The way things work on this side of the pond… when an area of land is purchased with PUBLIC money and becomes any kind of ‘State’ ( or ‘Federal’ ) level ‘Park’… a different level of ‘law enforcement’ is involved.

            There are ‘Park Rangers’ who are the ‘police’ for ‘Parks’. They have the same powers of arrest, they carry weapons, but they wear different color UNIFORMS than the regular Police do.

            I don’t live in Arizona… but in MY State… if someone makes a call to the regular Police department and says something like…

            “Hey… I was just looking through my binoculars and I think I see someone out walking in the State Park in a place where they aren’t supposed to be walking…. ”

            The local Police dispatcher would ( hopefully politely ) say…

            “That’s not our problem. Call the State Park Rangers”.

            Those ‘Park Rangers’ can ( if justified ) certainly ask anyone to ‘leave’ a Public Park… but they better have a good reason. As for whether they ( the Park Rangers, not regular Police ) can ever outright ‘arrest’ a member of the public for being in the ‘wrong place’ at a PUBLIC park… that’s the legally interesting part.

            That is why there was (apparently) the following ‘discussion’ at the July 31, 2015 meeting of this Arizona PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board.

            The ‘minutes’ from the meeting are piss-poor and almost seem to be trying to ‘obfuscate’ what the discussion was really about… but here is that somewhat ‘ominous’ statement in the July 31, 2015 minutes of the PUBLIC Arizona State ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’…

            It says… ( as part of the ‘Action Items’ session of the meeting )

            —————————————————————
            Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

            * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
            —————————————————————-

            Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

            But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

            * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

            Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

            Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

            * the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
            * continuous(ly) monitored and met.

            In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

            So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

            They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

            This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

            …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support and ‘cooperation’ it’s gonna take to do ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

            >> Otis also said…
            >>
            >> It just doesn’t make any sense… and I mean no disrespect
            >> at all, but WTC Memorial Pools don’t have a two mile
            >> exclusion zone around them, it’s there for everyone, a real
            >> tribute to those that were killed.

            It seems to make sense to this “small group of widows” that has always been driving this ‘Deployment Site Memorial’ effort.

            First they were going to try to do this ‘lock down’ on the site by purchasing it with their own money… but THEN they discovered what a great country this is and that they could still pursue their original agenda without having to spend a dime of their own money.

            Just use taxpayer dollars to achieve the same GOALS.

            In their minds… they owe almost NOTHING to ‘the public’.

            So that fact that you ( as an taxpaying citizen ) were the one paying the salaries of those men and, indeed, paying for investigations into their deaths and have ALSO now paid for the land that this ‘State Park’ sits on means very little to these “widows”.

            As for your ‘hypothetical’ “How is anyone supposed to know?”…

            That’s also a VERY good question.

            If this ‘small group of widows’ has their way… are they planning to spend even MORE taxpayer dollars for actual SIGNAGE that says something like…

            **** !!! WARNING !!!! ***
            **** !!! RESTRICTED ACCESS BEYOND THIS POINT !!! ***
            **** !!! IF YOU ARE NOT A FAMILY MEMBER OR A !!! ***
            **** !!! FIREFIGHTER… STOP… DO NOT PROCEED !! **
            **** !!! YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !! ***

            And if Deborah Pfingston has her way ( she is actually ON the design subcommittee that will apparently be designing and purchasing all the ‘signage’ for the area )… the !! WARNING !! sign will also say…

            **** !!! PS… IF YOU EVEN CONSIDER YOURSELF TO BE !!! ***
            **** !!! SOME KIND OF ‘PSYCHIC’ OR ‘MEDIUM’… PLEASE !!! **
            **** !!! LEAVE RIGHT NOW… BECAUSE YOU ARE ALREADY !!! ***
            **** !!! CLOSER THAN BOTH GOD AND LEVITICUS !!! ***
            **** !!! WANT YOU TO BE. !!! ***

            Reply

            • WWTKTT said:It’s an interesting legal question as to whether any member of the ‘public’ can ever actually be accused of ‘trespassing’ on a piece of land that they are ( legally speaking ) part-owner of. A PUBLIC park.

              MY REPLY: technically Trespassing officer for state land said as it is not properly fenced or signed ever so many feet WITH the statute numbers anyone can cross and would be hard to have a case on trespassing when its not properly signed and fenced— but I see how shady the law has been and unjust so I am not testing it

              Reply

            • WWTKTT- good question to you. How can a town fire chief Chief Ben Palm have anything at all to do with STATE PARK LAND- he works for the town not the state yet is in charge supposedly of who is able to visit the deployment site.

              Reply

          • We are beginning to have the same situation as that Kinder Scout thing that was in England. Thanks for the report. Well it seems that the reason those lands were set aside was so the only the wealthy could hunt in those areas denying the common man an equal right. Here it is similar where only privileged groups are allowed access–a memorial site that should be open to all.

            Thanks for the reference Otis–and if there was one guy that I considered a hero it was that young Zack Ashoor who knew the men that died when he visited with them in the Pubs. He was trying to build a very light respiratory system for fire fighters to save lives. He is now deceased but he told me–no one denies me to go down there and pay my respects to those men–I will stand before any judge–then he went down to where they died and paid his respects and wept with many whom have felt the pain of their loss. To deny the common person that right to visit the site and pay respects is alike what you had in Kinder Scout–privileged groups allowed access to public lands while the common man is denied access–a no no in the American free society.

            Reply

            • Amanda Marsh I wonder what your real reason for attacking Joy was. I challenge you to come on this site and tell us the truth as to why you want to use tax payer ,money to isolate this spot and 320 acres of state land to commemorate the worst fiasco in fire fighting history considering that your husband led 18 young men into a trap to end their lives, We hope he and Steed did not but up to now that is what evidence shows.

              Reply

              • Bingo!!!

                Joy has NEVER said ANYTHING negative here AT ALL about Eric.

                She’s been the most forgivingest of mostly everybody.

                I always felt, until this summer’s twists and turns, that MY hunt for the truth was in support of THE FAMILIES hunt for the truth, something they said over and over again was the goal of the lawsuits as opposed to the money.

                It’s increasingly looking to me that the families, or at least the most vocal and Type A members of the families (and I LOVE ambitious women) have been, or become, more interested and invested in protecting the angellic heroic MYTH that that awful mean incomprehensibly inscrutably evil FIRE just somehow randomly turned itself around and aimed itself at those totally powerless and hapless heroes and burned them alive, in accordance with some divinely implemented plan to bring them up to heaven to, forever, look over them and protect them.

                Hmmmm, maybe that same “something else happened?” that Holly suggested?

                My brother got himself killed doing something stupid and almost got a bunch of other people killed with him, also, by doing it. I was fricken thirteen years old at the time, and even I was able to discern that and learn to live with it and learn from it.

                Some people talked about that tragedy as “the Will of God.” I think they were doing that to “comfort” us, but I knew, even at that age, that that was complete BS. And so did my family. Even though my mom went completely ape-shit psychotic in the wake of it all.

                We never blamed God for any of it. We also didn’t blame the Scoutmaster, who was actually somewhat culpable in the whole scenario, much less sue him (something lots of people thought we should do). I was just raised that way.

                My brother was a freakin’ Eagle Scout who should have known BETTER!!!!

                And that’s how I see this. I’ve always looked at this with that in mind. As I have written periodically.

                I can be both critical of Marsh and Steed and also weep over their ghastly deaths in this complete cluster-f*ck of a terribly managed fire that should have been put out by 4PM on Saturday.

                I can be both critical of Marsh and Steed and also weep over their ghastly deaths in this complete cluster-f*ck of a terribly managed fire in which, apparently (no-one has proved me wrong yet) an Operations Supervisor was involved in a last-ditch Hail Mary Plan that included the Granite Mountain Hotshots coming down out of their huge in-the-black Safe Zone thru a chimney full of explosive fuels with a by-then Extreme Fire Behavior wildfire headed directly at it.

                I wonder where I stand in the “Acceptable Person” vs the “Unacceptable Person” gradient.

                I’m starting to think that anybody who doesn’t see this fire as Angelic FireFighters vs Evil Unpredictable Fire is in the “Unacceptable Person” checkbox.

                And that makes me really really really really sad.

                And even more sad because Joy hasn’t even been critical of Eric at all. Not even remotely.

                I don’t think “the families” are looking for the truth anymore.

                Reply

    • Until this PUBIC Arizona Board finally gets around to obeying the laws governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards and publishing the minutes from their meetings within the 72 hour time limit… we will have to wait and see what the results were for Amanda Marsh’s BOARD APPROVED little ‘private’ UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ of the ‘family members’ ( whatever the heck that actually means ).

      It really does sound like Amanda Marsh ( who may have been one of the “small group of widows that originally lobbied State Rep. Karen Fann to help them get the land for themselves ) is supposed to just ‘report back’ to this Arizona PUBLIC Board with a ‘vote count’ ( that she obtained… ??? how ??? ) and that will end up deciding if the PUBLIC ever gets to do anything but schlep for 2 miles just to stand next to a larger-than-life-size bronze statue of a ‘Wildland lookout’ and say…

      “Oh look, honey… down there. See those little white crosses? That must be where they actually burned to death.”

      I also keep wondering what this ‘larger-than-life-size statue of the “Lookout-they-needed-to-stay-alive-that-day” is actually going to LOOK like?

      I mean… is it going to look like that famous statue of an Indian lookout with his palm up to his forehead to shade the sun while he ‘looks in the distance’?

      Or will the statue be “slinging the weather” and the “interpretive signage” will explain what the hell that means?

      If this goes down with Arizona State Parks fully behind “no one but family members or members of the firefighting community are allowed to come down off the high-ridge two-track and get anywhere near the deployment site”…

      …then the “small group of widows” has succeeded in getting exactly what THEY wanted to accomplish by purchasing the land themselves… but now they didn’t have to spend a dime of their own money and the taxpayers of Arizona have fully funded their original GOAL(S).

      Not only should Amanda Marsh NOT be allowed to take this little ‘survey’ completely on her own, and without anyone even checking how she is even ‘asking the question’…

      …if she really is one of those “widows” that originally ‘lobbied’ State Representative Karen Fann to put riders in a proposed piece of legislation stacking the deck in their favor to obtain a piece of State Trust Land…

      …she should have NEVER been allowed to serve on that PUBLIC BOARD at all.

      That’s just classic “Conflict of Interest” that should always prevent someone from serving on a PUBLIC BOARD that is to decide what happens on the same piece of land YOU were going to try and buy for yourself.

      Input into the process ( as a family member )… yes.
      Board member influence on decision making… no.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        >> On September 28, 2015 at 11:42 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
        >>
        >> Until this PUBIC Arizona Board finally gets around to obeying the laws…

        That really was an unintentional TYPO… but I’ve had worse ones.

        Reply

      • WTKKT Well said. Thanks and that is exactly how the situation would be, A simple rock mound where visitors cast a rock would build a memorial that each person could remember them by. Joy and I started one along the trail going up and left a message if you pass place a stone in remembrance of the men. It was a fitting way to show respect and although that monument is high up the mountain many left stones as they passed. Some left stones with messages on them. Over time the monument would build and be seen high above the manzanita–that is if all are allowed to pay their respects.

        Reply

  79. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 3:41 pm

    ( Continued from a conversation started down below )…

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one.
    >> How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the people you want to get in
    >> by default…get in, but yet specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t want
    >> to go in…out?

    I have a better answer to your question than I did few hours ago.

    I have discovered ‘the plan’… and it’s in the minutes of the meetings of this Arizona State PUBLIC ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board.

    It’s basically just TWO simple steps…

    1. Get Arizona State Parks to officially designate this State Park as a ‘Memorial Park’.
    ( Already DONE. See below ). That automatically gives them the ‘authoritay’ to make decisions about design and access that supersede ‘regular State Park rules’.

    2. Punt the decision about who is allowed to ‘access’ or ‘get near’ what to the families of those being ‘memorialized’. ( Also ALREADY DONE. See below ).

    More detail about this is down in a ‘Reply’ to this message… but in order to understand that ‘Reply’ better… let me take a short LEFT TURN and talk about the minutes from the July 31, 2015 ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ meeting.

    The online page where all the ‘Agendas’ and the ‘Minutes’ of any/all meetings of the Arizona State Parks public “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board are supposed to appear is still HERE…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    Here is a ‘rundown’ on which meetings have had their ‘minutes’ posted at this point… and which meetings are still MISSING ‘minutes’…

    Agenda 09/18/15, ( STILL NO MINUTES POSTED, EVEN THOUGH MORE THAN 72 HOURS )
    Agenda 07/31/15, Minutes 07/31/15
    Agenda 05/29/15, ( STILL NO MINUTES POSTED, EVEN THOUGH APPROVED 07/31/15 )
    Agenda 04/10/15, Minutes 04/10/15
    Agenda 02/27/15, Minutes 02/27/15
    Agenda 01/06/15, Minutes 01/06/15
    Agenda 11/24/14, Minutes 11/24/14
    Exec Session 11/24/14, ( NO MINUTES POSTED, PRIVATE SESSION )

    NOTE: The very first thing this Arizona public Board did when it first met officially was to go into (private) ‘Executive Session’ to discuss whether they really had to fulfill those obligations under Arizona Law to actually have to invite the public to the meetings and also publish minutes from the meetings. Obviously someone who knew the law told them “YES, you do” on both counts… since they have included invitations for the public to attend the meetings AND have been (eventually) publishing most minutes from most of the meetings ever since… but still not within compliance with the laws governing Arizona PUBLIC Boards.

    ** THE JULY 31, 2015 MEETING

    8 Board members were present, 6 were absent.

    That still gave them a ‘quorum’ and the right to VOTE on things even without the 6 other Board members present… and they made some pretty important decisions WITHOUT them.

    Here is the proof that the ‘minutes’ for the May 29, 2015 were, in fact, APPROVED by the Board itself. That means they are no longer considered even ‘Draft Minutes’ and should have been subject to immediate publication…

    ——————————————————————————————
    C. INTRODUCTION OF BOARD MEMBERS
    Role was taken.
    Board Members Present
    Chairman Sue Black; Senator Steve Pierce; Representative Karen Fann; Dan Fraijo;
    Amanda Marsh; Jeff Whitney; Lenora Nelson; Chuck Tidey
    Board Members Absent
    Ret. Chief Darrell Willis; Chief Ben Palm; Mayor Marlin Kuykendall; Brendan
    McDonough; John Flynn; Yavapai County Supervisor Rowle Simmons

    D. ACTION ITEMS
    1. Approve the Minutes of the May 29, 2015 Meeting of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.
    Motion: Representative Fann moved to approve the minutes of the May 29, 2015
    meeting. Amanda Marsh seconded. Unanimous approval.
    ——————————————————————————————

    So even though Arizona Law states a Public Board must NOT wait until the minutes of a meeting are approved before those minutes are to posted publicly… and even though the Board ‘approved’ the May 29, 2015 meeting TWO MONTHS later on July 31, 2015…

    …those May 29, 2015 meeting minutes are STILL NOT POSTED on the Arizona State Parks Website ( a full FOUR MONTHS after that original May meeting ).

    Is there something in the May 29, 2015 minutes, specifically, that the members of the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” just don’t want the public to see?

    After 4 months… it’s simply another ‘Double Eye’ situation.

    Either it’s (total) ‘Incompetence’… or it’s (totally) ‘Intentional’.

    ** OTHER ‘ACTION ITEMS’ DURING THE JULY 31, 2015 MEETING…
    ——————————————————————————————
    2. Consider approval of the following design components as presented by the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board Design Sub-Committee:

    Mike King presented the 4 separate design components:

    NOTE: Mike King is NOT an actual ‘Board Member’. He was ‘appointed’ by the Board to be the design subcommittee co-chair. Mike King is a retired Prescott National Forest supervisor. The ACTUAL (entire) ‘Design subcommitte’ is…

    Co-Chair: Jeff Whitney, Arizona State Forester.
    Co-Chair: Mike King, Prescott National Forest Supervisor ( Retired ).
    Board member: Chuck Tidey, Yarnell Recovery Group Chairman.
    Board member: Darrell Willis, Former Prescott Fire AND Wildland Division Chief.
    Member (by invitation): Pete Gordon, Prescott National Forest Fire Staff Officer.
    Member (by invitation): Deborah Pfingston, Andrew Ashcraft’s mother.

    FROM THE MINUTES – FINAL DESIGN ELEMENTS…

    * Trailhead to include interpretive signage and a bronze statue of a sawyer and a swamper at 1.25 scale ratio. Statue design cost estimates are $120,000 each and timeframe for completion could be 15-18 months.

    * Trail Signage to include 19 interpretive signs with biographies for each of the 19 fallen hotshots. Each biography will feature 170 words and a photo of the fallen.

    * Observation Site to include a bronze statue of a lookout hotshot crewmember at 1.25 scale ratio, a metal shade structure, and interpretive signage.

    * Fatality Site; to include (19) 40” x 21” white granite crosses, 19 gabion walls, fatality site interpretive signage, a rusted metal wall with the Granite Mountain Hotshots logo inscribed on it, and seating benches. The area the 19 hotshots cleared will remain cleared and maintained and will be defined with boulders and landscaping.
    ——————————————————————————————

    So there really ARE going to be at least THREE ‘larger-than-life-size’ BRONZE STATUES at ‘the site’…. and one of them really IS going to be a ‘larger-than-life-size’ statue of a Wildland Hotshot LOOKOUT…

    …even though the fact remains that if they had actually HAD a REAL (human) LOOKOUT that day… they probably would have not died at all.

    ** WHAT’S ARE ‘GABION WALLS’?

    From Wikipedia…
    —————————————————————————————————-
    A gabion (from Italian gabbione meaning “big cage”; from Italian gabbia and Latin cavea meaning “cage”) is a cage, cylinder, or box filled with rocks, concrete, or sometimes sand and soil for use in civil engineering, road building, military applications and landscaping.

    The most common civil engineering use of gabions was refined and patented by Gaetano Maccaferri in the late 1800s in Sacerno, Emilia Romagna and used to stabilize shorelines, stream banks or slopes against erosion. Other uses include retaining walls, temporary flood walls, silt filtration from runoff, for small or temporary/permanent dams, river training, or channel lining.[2] They may be used to direct the force of a flow of flood water around a vulnerable structure.

    A GABION WALL is a retaining wall made of stacked stone-filled gabions tied together with wire. Gabion walls are usually battered (angled back towards the slope), or stepped back with the slope, rather than stacked vertically.
    —————————————————————————————————-

    There’s a constant ‘erosion’ concern out there at the exact spot where they died, so these ’19 Gabion Walls’ being mentioned will probably play a role in trying to protect the actual site of the fatalities from ‘runoff’ and ‘erosion’.

    ** A METAL WALL?

    “… a rusted metal wall with the Granite Mountain Hotshots logo inscribed on it”

    No detailed information about this in the minutes.

    A ‘metal wall’ around WHAT? How high?… and for what purpose?

    It’s pretty obvious that Mike King must have had some ‘drawings’ or ‘renderings’ with him as he was doing this ‘presentation’… but no such documents have been published yet.

    ** INTERPRETIVE SIGNAGE?

    It’s going to literally be “all over the place”… but no word yet on who is going to AUTHOR this ‘interpretive signage’… or what ‘approval’ process is going to take place.

    If this is also up to the ‘Design Subcommittee’… then obviously both Darrell Willis and Deborah Pfingston will be supplying ‘input’ as to what all this ‘interpretive signage’ is supposed to say.

    ** DONE DEAL

    So the ‘design’ seems to be ‘set’ now ( as detailed above )… and Jeff Whitney made it ‘official’ at this meeting with the following ‘motions’… which were all UNANIMOUSLY approved ( even though only 8 out of the 14 Board members were actually attending this meeting )…

    Motion: Jeff Whitney moved to have Arizona State Parks issue an RFQ ( Request For Quote ) for 2 bronze sculptures as presented by the Design Sub-Committee. Lenora Nelson seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

    Motion: Jeff Whitney moved to have the implementation of each of the 4 design components dependent on prioritization and the ability to raise the funds. Lenora Nelson seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      ** THE TWO-STEP PLAN TO CONTROL ACCESS…

      The same minutes for the July 31, 2015 meeting of this PUBLIC “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site” Board contain the details about how they are going to go about ‘limiting access’ to certain parts of this Arizona State PUBLIC Park to certain people… OR ‘allowing’ it for certain ‘others’.

      As mentioned above… it’s basically just TWO simple steps…

      1. Get Arizona State Parks to officially designate this State Park as a ‘Memorial Park’. ( Already DONE. See below ). That automatically gives them the ‘authoritay’ to make decisions about design and access that supersede ‘regular State Park rules’.

      2. Punt the decision about who is allowed to ‘access’ or ‘get near’ what to the families of those being ‘memorialized’. ( Also ALREADY DONE. See below ).

      According to whatever ‘minutes’ we can see so far establish… it is still not a GIVEN at all that ANY ‘members of the public’ will be allowed to get anywhere near the actual ‘deployment site’ at this new Arizona State Park.

      It is still being DECIDED if that will happen… or NOT.

      ** STEP NUMBER ONE ( OF JUST TWO STEPS )…
      **
      ** ARIZONA STATE PARKS HAS AGREED TO HELP CONTROL ACCESS
      ** TO THE ACTUAL DEPLOYMENT AREA ‘AS DESIRED BY THE FAMILIES’.
      ** AND ‘THE FIREFIGHTING COMMUNITY’.
      **
      ** THE ‘PUBLIC’ IS LOW ON THE LIST.

      The following is ‘verbatim’ from the July 31, 2015 meeting ‘minutes’…

      ———————————————————————————
      E. DISCUSSION ITEMS

      1. Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park Report from Arizona State Parks.

      – Arizona State Parks Deputy Director Kelly Moffitt reported on the successful June 30th auction at the courthouse in Prescott. He stated that the property is now a “MEMORIAL State Park'”. Also, that it is Arizona State Parks desire to be sensitive to all project stakeholders including the families, local communities, and the fire fighting communities. Arizona State Parks Board has voted to call this park the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park, and it is Arizona State Parks interest to help control access to the fatality site as desired by the stakeholders. Arizona State Parks Development Section will help review of all plans and provide support to the Board and Design Sub-Committee. Arizona Department of Administration will review construction plans. Arizona Department of Transportation is moving forward with their support of the project.
      ————————————————————————————

      So there is ‘Step Number ONE’ of ‘The Plan’ all signed / sealed / delivered.

      The Arizona State Parks BOARD has ALREADY voted that this will be a ‘specially designated’ ‘Memorial Park’ and they are totally behind the ‘Family Members’ ( and the ‘Firefighting Community ) deciding who gets to access what at this (sic: public) Arizona State Park.

      ** STEP NUMBER TWO ( OF JUST TWO STEPS )…

      From the same ‘Action Items’ section in the July 31, 2015 minutes, where only 8 of the 14 Board members were actually ‘present’…

      ————————————————————————————
      Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

      * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.

      * Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.

      * Chairman Black read an email from John Flynn regarding his comments and concerns about the project. He believes it is imperative to have input from the 19 families on the design and development of the project. He also stated that he was concerned about public access to the deployment site and felt that it should only be accessible to the families and to the fire community by permit. If the consensus from the families were to allow access, he would be ok with that.
      —————————————————————————————————-

      ** BREAKOUT

      I’m going to do a ‘breakout’ on each of these… because they are important to understanding HOW they ( the family members ) still are going to get to decide who has access to what at this new ‘Arizona State Park’.

      There are also ‘motions’ that came later in the meeting related to these things that prove they became ‘DONE DEALS’ at this July 31, 2015 meeting… even though only 8 Board Members ( out of 14 ) actually VOTED.

      ** THE PARK MUST STILL MEET (QUOTE) ‘THE FAMILY’S NEEDS’…

      —————————————————————————————————-
      * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
      —————————————————————————————————

      By designating this a ‘Memorial Park’… Arizona Parks Department gets to pursue this ‘prime directive’ without any new RULES being made or subject to approval by the Arizona State Legislature.

      ** AMANDA MARSH IS ASSIGNED TO ‘POLL’ THE FAMILY MEMBERS

      ————————————————————————————————-
      * Amanda Marsh stated that she wanted to make sure the families were ok with people having access down to the fatality site and wanted the families to have a vote. Amanda will contact families in two-weeks. If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.
      ————————————————————————————————-

      So at this particular meeting ( July 31, 2015 )… it was Amanda Marsh herself who proposed that even though this is now going to be an Arizona PUBLIC State Park, it should still be completely up to the families if any member of the public EVER gets to go down anywhere NEAR the deployment site…

      …and everyone in the room agreed with her.

      Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney IMMEDIATELY made a Motion to ‘make it so’… and there was then UNANIMOUS APPROVAL.

      So the following Jeff Whitney motions PASSED is now a DONE DEAL… even though only 8 of the 14 public Board members voted.

      Motion: Jeff Whitney moved that the Yarnell Board approve Amanda Marsh to get input from the families regarding suggested design of the fatality site, access to the fatality site, and access among the crosses. Senator Pierce seconded the motion. Unanimous approval.

      Notice that the ‘access’ component has TWO parts.

      Amanda Marsh is going to POLL the families about whether any member of the public should ( first and foremost ) EVER be allowed anywhere NEAR that deployment site ( as in… confined to to the high-ridge two-track ).

      If there is ‘approval’ among the family members for the PUBLIC being allowed to actually enter the ‘bowl’… there is then ANOTHER ‘access’ component that has to do with what Whitney’s motion called “access among the crosses”.

      Depending on where these two separate WALLS mentioned in the (approved) ‘design’ are… that could still mean the PUBLIC is to be kept quite some distance away from the deployment site… and ONLY ‘certain people’ ( decided by WHO? ) would ever get to have ‘that kind of access’ at this Arizona State PUBLIC park.

      You don’t have to fall too far from the turnip truck to realize that this is a complicated ‘issue’… and it matters very much how this whole thing is even PRESENTED to ‘the family members’.

      The PRESENTATION itself could easily be made in such a way as to elicit a certain response of fulfill an agenda.

      Yet the widow of just ONE of the deceased firefighters now has ‘unanimous’ approval of the entire Arizona State PUBLIC Board to go about doing this ‘polling’ of the family members however she chooses… and UNSUPERVISED.

      Instead of arranging a MEETING with these family members… where ALL Board members might be present to explain the plans and the situation… and for ALL of the (voting) Board members to listen to their reactions for themselves… they have agreed to let just this ONE wife of just ONE of the firefighters go around ( by HERSELF ) and do this critical ‘decision making poll’.

      ** IF SPLIT DECISION… BOARD DECIDES

      There was also this little ‘gem’ that was decided at this public meeting…

      “If there is a split among the family members, the Board would vote.”

      So if Amanda Marsh comes back from her little ( unsupervised ) ‘polling’ expedition and reports that the ‘families’ are ‘split’ ( whatever that means ) about whether the public should ever be able to get near the deployment site at this PUBLIC Arizona State Park…

      …then the BOARD just gets to decide that themselves.

      Hopefully with more than 8 members ( out of 14 ) actually ‘voting’.

      ** ‘FIRE COMMUNITY’ ( Whatever the hell THAT means? ) CAN GET
      ** ‘ACCESS PERMITS’… BUT NOT ANYONE ELSE?

      There’s a guy on this PUBLIC Board named ‘John Flynn’.

      He is listed on the ‘Board members’ page as…

      John Flynn of the Arizona Fire Districts Association, representing
      a non-profit ( organization ) that supports public safety;

      He is ALSO the Chairman of this ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial Site’ Board’s FUNDRAISING subcommittee.

      As shown above in original posting… this ‘John Flynn’ guy was NOT in attendance at this meeting… but he knew the ‘access’ part was going to be discussed so he sent Chairman Sue Black and EMAIL that he wanted to go ‘on the record’ as they were having this ‘who gets to access what’ discussion.

      This ‘John Flynn’ guy is all concerned about ‘public access’ ( even though it’s going to be a State Park ) and he thinks no one who isn’t a ‘family member’ or a ‘member of the fire community ) ( Again… whatever the hell THAT means ) should be able to get anywhere near the actual deployment site.

      Chairman Sue Black read his ’email’ into the public record of this meeting…

      * Chairman Black read an email from John Flynn regarding his comments and concerns about the project. He believes it is imperative to have input from the 19 families on the design and development of the project. He also stated that he was concerned about public access to the deployment site and felt that it should ONLY be accessible to the FAMILIES and to the “FIRE COMMUNITY” by PERMIT.. If the consensus from the families were to allow access, he would be ok with that.

      ** BOTTOM LINE

      So it looks like this original “small group of widows” that wanted to buy the land themselves and be in total control regarding who ever gets to get anywhere NEAR the deployment site is still very much ‘in control’ of the decision making process about that very thing.

      If that “small group of widows” ( it is still assumed that Amanda Marsh was/is one of that original group ) can do the right “sell job” on the other family members, then it looks like they will get much of what they wanted in the first place by wanting to purchase the land themselves and “Limit access to JUST US and the FIRE COMMUNITY”.

      It’s highly likely that Amanda Marsh came back with her little ‘polling report’ at the most recent September 18, 2015 meeting… but just as they have done for every previous meeting… this Arizona Public Board is in violation of the rules governing all Arizona Public Boards by not publishing the minutes of a previous meeting within 72 hours following the meeting.

      The local media ( Prescott Daily Courier ) has also stopped sending any reporters to these public meetings or writing any articles about what goes on at them… so who knows when we will find out the results of Amanda Marsh’s little “I’ll poll the family members myself” mission.

      Maybe we won’t find out until this public Arizona State Park actually opens and there are guards posted everywhere checking IDs and ( somehow? ) determining if you are a “family member” ( whatever that criteria will be? ) or a member of this elusive “fire community”.

      What a circus.

      Reply

      • One wonders why the fuss over keeping it to just a few? What are they hiding–is it that the privileged want to keep the gross errors made by those firemen hidden from other firemen who stand to learn from those errors. Public would not understand the errors although once written about would come to understand how foolish their bosses led those men to their deaths. Is that something Amanda wants to hide considering that Eric was in command and could have kept the men from going down. Unless of course Steed disobeyed Marsh or went down on his own will. Either way both are at fault for their gross error and likely had they survived would have been prosecuted for negligence that lead to those younger ones deaths.

        Reply

  80. I just discovered that on April 30, 2015, Eric Hipke produced and posted his OWN video on YouTube regarding the South Canyon Fire.

    I found this to be really interesting, given that he was involved in the USFS 2014 video regarding that fire that said, “We need to talk about this!”, given how much the USFS has tried to, via themselves and their derivative organizations etc, tried to shut down “talking about” the Yarnell HIll Wildfire.

    An essential “ad campaign” that I’ve been, all things considered, pretty cynical about.

    I’ve just been sitting here watching it, and thinking, “this is really different from what I’ve seen so far.”

    I would be really really really really interested in what Gary Olsen and Bob Powers think about how Eric narrated this fire earlier this year, all things considered, and what his narration might have to do with how the Yarnell Fire is currently being narrated.

    One of the things I’m thinking about is how the fact that Eric Hipke published to YouTube at the end of April 2015 may substantiate both Gary’s and WTKTT’s claim that, no matter what happens to get in the way of the
    Truth, the Truth will still push to be known.

    “1994 South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain”

    https://youtu.be/ZzGTjfTHihU

    Reply

    • Oh, and also speaking about the USFS, I found this thingy today:

      It pertains to “How the Forest Service is botching its biggest restoration project,” the 4FRI project in Arizona.

      When I read this, it confirmed what Gary said downstream about how the USFS is totally uninterested in listening to what “civilians” have to say about anything. Even when they have, at one point in time, solicited “the public’s” ideas and opinions.

      Lost in the woods
      How the Forest Service is botching its biggest restoration project.

      https://www.hcn.org/issues/46.15/lost-in-the-woods

      Reply

    • PS. And I spent a bunch of time today on the google machine trying to find any kind of conversation about why a USFS Engine crew wound up on a bad road (connected to private property) near Twisp that the County’s FD Chief had said “Do not go here!!!!” or at least any kind of conversation about that and I found NOTHING.

      And then I spent a bunch of time on the google machine trying to find ANY conversation about why a USFS (I’m assuming, or maybe I’m wrong???) smoke-jumper crew would have found themselves in a position to have been burned over on private land on the rapidly expanding Northern California Valley Fire. And I found nothing nada.

      I really don’t understand what is going wrong. And, apparently, nobody is talking about it

      Am I missing something?

      Reply

      • Marti if you are talking about the 4 who got severe burns in Northern California Valley Fire.
        My understanding was they were a IA Helitack crew and they were Cal Fire.

        Unless we are talking about something Different I have herd of no USFS Smoke Jumpers Being Burned.

        Cal Fire would have been responsible for Private Land. Also there are Co-op agreements with the USFS for assistance to them under the Closes forces Concept.
        So the FS could be on Private and State Land with any number of equipment or Crews.

        Reply

      • Well…if you have a positive take on what Eric Hipke said, I am going to say that is being run by the USFS, so I don’t know what to say. The original report was way off and Dr. Putnam wouldn’t sign it, so I don’t know what is going on?

        Reply

      • I guess what I am trying to say Marti…is that if you liked the presentation, I think I need to hear from you as to why you liked it, because I would not have guessed that is what your take-a-way would have been? I am surprised. Pleasantly surprised…but surprised.

        Reply

    • Marti said “I just discovered that on April 30, 2015, Eric Hipke produced and posted his OWN video on YouTube regarding the South Canyon Fire.”

      That statement is completely wrong. Eric Hipke did not produce or post that video. That video was professionally produced by the National Wildfire Coordinating Group which is the umbrella organization for the “fire community;”

      Eric Hipke was simply the narrator and he was working for (and I assume he still is) for the National Interagency Fire Center (national Command & Control for all wildfire operations) so he is a mouthpiece for “them.” That is not necessarily a bad thing, but you have to know that he is a spokesperson for the company line.

      Other than that, I don’t have the patience right now to sit through an official narration of what occurred on the South Canyon Fire for almost one and a half hours. Maybe if I get drunk or high or if I am in a car accident and I am partially brain damaged and home bound. Maybe then?

      I am trying to focus on the Battlement Creek Fire, and yes, I get it, nobody cares about such a little fire with such a small death toll that happened so long ago. And now the Yarnell Hill Fire, which is really screwing up my golden years because of what happened there first and foremost, and now what is happening with the memorial board’s bullshit. Why are any of us still here? We all need an intervention.

      Reply

      • I didn’t state that strong enough. I am so pissed off right now and frustrated with what the politics of Prescott, Yavapai County and Arizona are doing right with the Granite Mountain Hotshot Memorial State Park that I am ready to SCREAM! Or maybe just go ATVing for a few days.

        Reply

        • Maybe it was out of just pure ‘hope’… but I really did think that once it was agreed that Arizona State Parks Department was going to ‘own’ that piece of land and make a ‘State Park’ out of it… that maybe ( just maybe ) whatever few ADULTS are actually left in the great and wonderful State of Arizona had finally showed up to the party and a lot of the juvenile “we don’t owe jack shit to the taxpayers” stuff would just stop.

          Bzzzt. Wrong assumption ( again? ).

          There is actually an ‘ominous’ statement in the July 31, 2015 minutes of the PUBLIC Arizona State ‘Yarnell Memorial Site Board’ meeting that just sort of ‘flies by’…

          It says… ( as part of the ‘Action Items’ session of the meeting )

          —————————————————————
          Chairman Black opened up general discussion among the Board members.

          * Board members discussed multi agency partnerships, and that the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were continuous monitored and met.
          —————————————————————-

          Sounds pretty innocent, yes?

          But break down this piss-poor note-taking and it says something different.

          * ‘multi-agency partnerships’.

          Normally… all the ‘security’ of an Arizona State park is required to be enforced by duly employed ‘Park Rangers’. That includes reports of ‘trespassing’ or invalid access to certain areas.

          Well… talking about ‘multi-agency parnterships’ could very well mean they are acknowledging the fact that there will be no permanent park rangers at this ‘Memorial Site’… so they are going to need ‘multi-agency’ agreements with the Yavapai County Sheriff’s office and/or the Yarnell Fire Department to keep this site ‘locked down’ they way they really WANT to.

          * the family’s needs and wants for the memorial site were
          * continuous(ly) monitored and met.

          In other words… the meeting apparently took the turn towards “we are gonna need multi-agency law enforcement agreements in place in order to make sure no one but family members ( or firefighters ) are gaining full access to this site”

          So this discussion is happening on July 31, 2015 BEFORE Amanda Marsh even ‘launches’ on her little UNSUPERVISED ‘polling’ mission of the family members.

          They ( the 8 Board members who actually bothered to show up on July 31 ) seem to be ‘assuming’ that the final decision would be some level of ‘lock down’ on the site… and they are gonna need ‘multi ( law enforcement ) agency” agreements to even have a chance at pulling off a ‘lock down’ and to ( exact quote ) “continuously monitor and meet the family’s requirements”.

          This is a frickin’ STATE PARK we are talking about…

          …and THEY still seem to be talking about how much ‘law enforcement’ support it’s gonna take to do ‘lock downs’ on this STATE PARK.

          Like I said… I thought some adults had showed up when Arizona State Parks got involved.

          Looks like that ‘thought’ was premature.

          Reply

  81. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 5:26 pm

    ( Continuing a conversation from down below )…

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I don’t think it is an interesting
    >> legal question at all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and give them the
    >> benefit of the doubt), I think it is a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands
    >> Department has the authority at all to write or enforce closures orders on
    >> Arizona State Parks.

    Correct. That’s the ‘no-brainer’ part.

    The ‘interesting’ part ( which I actually forgot to talk about ) is whether or not that ‘change of ownership’ on the land also fully and legally ( and immediately ) INVALIDATES an existing ‘Court Order’ related to that piece of land.

    Say, for example, that the actual Court Order just said something like…

    “For a period of one year… Thou shalt not hike anywhere near the south half of Arizona Section 9, in Township 10 North, Range 05 West.”

    Well… technically… that has nothing to do with who OWNS the land. Some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ has determined he can order some citizen to stay away from some specific piece of land for some specific amount of time. Period. End of story.

    Or IS it ( end of story? ).

    I don’t know. Looking for a Holiday Inn Express to stay in tonight with good WiFi and see if some good ‘Googling’ can find any frickin’ precedent for this weirdness.

    ** MORE ABOUT THIS…

    It really does all depend on EXACTLY what any particular ‘Court Order’ actually SAYS.

    At the URL you reposted just down below…

    The original ‘State Trust Land Closure Order’ issued by
    the Arizona State ( Trust ) Land Department )…

    http://www.azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    At the top of this ‘Addendum to original Closure Order’ ( ALL CAPS are theirs… )
    ————————————————————————————–

    STATE LAND DEPARTMENT OF THE STATE OF ARIZONA
    BEFORE THE STATE LAND COMMISSIONER

    ORDER NO. 109-2013/2014

    ORDER AUTHORIZING ADDITIONAL ACCESS WITH REGARDS
    TO CLOSING ORDER NO. 006-2013/2014.

    IN THE MATTER OF MODIFYING CLOSING ORDER NO. 006-2013/2014
    FOR THE FOLLOWING DESCRIBED STATE TRUST SURFACE
    AND SUBSURFACE LAND.

    SOUTH HALF OF SECTION 9 IN TOWNSHIP 10 NORTH, RANGE
    5 WEST, 320 ACRES, YAVAPAI COUNTY, ARIZONA.
    —————————————————————————————

    So if a ‘Court Order’ that some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ might issue trying to keep someone away from this ‘Public’ land simply said…

    “I hereby ORDER you to respect all the provisions of any/all valid Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders, particularly ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014”

    …then there is ‘wiggle room’ here.

    Because on June 30, 2015… “ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014” were NO LONGER VALID.

    On that day… it was NO LONGER STATE TRUST LAND and any/all ‘Closure Orders’ issued by ASLD for that piece of turf would be automatically ‘obsolete’ and ‘invalid’.

    But if the Court Order actually ‘reproduced’ any of the original ASLD Order and specifically names the location by saying something like…

    “I hereby ORDER you to respect all the provisions of any/all valid Arizona State Land Department Closure Orders, particularly ASLD Closure order 006-2013/2014 and its addendum 109-2013/2014, and to not hike anywhere near the south half of Section 9 in Township 10 North, Range 5 West, Yavapai County, Arizona”

    …now things get ‘sticky’ ( legally speaking ).

    Technically… just because the ‘Court Order’ might have ‘reiterated’ the actual geographic coordinates from the ASLD document… this basically now becomes a ‘two part’ Court Order.

    1) Respect all VALID ASLD closure announcements.
    2) Stay away from a specific piece of physical land.

    The SALE of the land and it passing OUT of the jurisdiction of ASLD seems to immediately negate ‘part 1’ of the Court Order… but does it ALSO then automatically negate ‘part 2’ of the same Order?

    It absolutely depends on EXACTLY what any particular ‘Court Order’ SAYS ( word for word ).

    I’m still looking for that ‘Holiday Inn Express’ to stay in tonight and do some more research on this.

    More later.

    Reply

    • I am going to go out on another limb here, which I am now well known for doing. And we won’t know until we see exactly what Judge Bean told Joy in the court order that was produced as a result of Amanda Marsh flexing her muscles to show Joy who was boss.

      BUT…that being said, I doubt is Judge Bean go involved in the “no hike” order at all. I think Judge Bean would have relied on the power of the Arizona State Land Department to manage their own land and issue their own closure orders.

      Maybe, the court order just says stuff about what Joy should not do pertaining directly to Amanda Marsh or whatever the focus of THAT hearing was, and did not address the state land at all?

      Reply

      • I don’t think that’s a ‘limb’ at all.

        It’s an educated guess… and I agree.

        It could turn out there are basically THREE distinct WTF moments involved with this blatant manipulation of the Court System.

        WTF 1: Whatever Amanda Marsh said in the original affidavit that even enabled her to get in front of Judge Roy Bean in the first place. Could be COMPLETE BULLSHIT.

        WTF 2: What happened at the hearing. Did it FOCUS on the original ‘allegations’ in the (signed) affidavit at all… or did it take off to Disneyland and start to be about all kinds of other things… including total ‘hearsay’ testimony from Darrell Willis coming from people who hadn’t even filed ANY complaints of their own.

        SIDENOTE: That, itself, is totally outside Arizona Law. It specifically says with regards to POs and “Injunctions Against Harassment” that (quote) “The Court will NOT entertain multiple plaintiffs. Each plaintiff must file their own affidavit”.

        WTF 3: The Court Order itself. Does it bear any resemblance to what even SEEMED to be discussed or decided in the hearing itself.

        By the way…

        See this new post above for a better answer to your question “How do you make a rule for a PUBLIC State Park that just lets SOME people IN and keeps OTHER people out?”

        http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-309082

        The answer turns out to be very simple ( and it is ALREADY being implemented ).

        1. You get Arizona Parks to declare it a special “Memorial Park”

        2. You then punt all decisions about ‘access’ to “The family members and the firefighting community”.

        It looks like the original “small group of widows” ( led by Board Member Amanda Marsh? ) are pretty much poised to get almost exactly what they wanted to get by buying the land themselves… but with a ‘neat trick’.

        They now get to just use taxpayer dollars to accomplish the same goal of ‘limiting’ full access to the ‘State Park’ to the same people they would have only allowed access to if they had bought the land themselves.

        Reply

        • By the way… if it turns out that Amanda Marsh really was one of those “small group of widows” who originally lobbied State Representative Karen Fann to put a ‘rider’ in the proposed legislation that THEY ( she and the other widows ) should get “first rights” on BUYING the deployment site land…

          …then there is no way in hell she should have been appointed to the resulting “Arizona State PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board”.

          I can’t think of a better definition of “Conflict of Interest” that should PROHIBIT someone from serving on the very same PUBLIC Board that a legislature establishes to decide the fate of the same land that person wanted to BUY.

          Yet there both she and Deborah Pfingston are… ‘serving’ on that PUBLIC Board and trying to influence the outcome towards the exact same ‘goal’ they had for buying the land for themselves, with their OWN money.

          And ( apparently ) doing a pretty good job of succeeding at it.

          Geez. Louise.

          Reply

          • Total caveat here for the above…

            No matter how this ended up going down… I ( myself ) think that every single direct family member of those men that burned to death should have/had a LOT to say about what was going to be done with the land and what the ‘Public State Park’ should look like…

            …but serving on the BOARD that is making those decisions when you might be one of the persons who was ‘competing’ for ‘possession’ of the same property is something else altogether.

            That really is just classic “Conflict of Interest”.

            Reply

  82. I am looking for the statute that grants Arizona State Parks (Director) the authority to close specific parks to specific people but exempt special people, so if anybody else knows where it is, please post it.

    Reply

      • I don’t know, at first glance (read) it looks to me like the State Parks Department can make rules, but the rules have to be approved by the Arizona State Legislature?

        9. Make reasonable rules for the protection of, and maintain and keep the peace in, state parks and monuments. Such rules adopted by the parks board are subject to review and approval by the legislature. After a board rule has been finally adopted pursuant to chapter 6 of this title, the board shall immediately forward a certified copy of the rule to the legislature. The legislature may review and, by concurrent resolution, approve, disapprove or modify such rule. However, such rule shall be given full force and effect pending legislative review. If no concurrent resolution is passed by the legislature with respect to the rule within one year following receipt of a certified copy of the rule, the rule shall be deemed to have been approved by the legislature. If the legislature disapproves a rule or a section of a rule, the board shall immediately discontinue the use of any procedure, action or proceeding authorized or required by the rule or section of the rule. If the legislature modifies a rule or section of a rule, the board shall immediately suspend the use of any procedure, action or proceeding authorized or required by the rule or section of the rule until the modified rule has been adopted in accordance with chapter 6 of this title, after which all proceedings pursuant to the rule shall be conducted in accordance with the modified version of the rule.

        Reply

        • Or technically the “rule” would be in force until the state legislature takes action on it but if they don’t do anything after one year, it becomes a permanent rule by default.

          Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one. How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the people you want to get in by default…get in, but yet specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t want to go in…out?

          You gotta love it…or not?

          It’s no wonder I haven’t heard back from either the Arizona State Parks Department or the Arizona State Lands Department regarding my specific questions…yet.

          Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 3:41 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> Technically the “rule” would be in force until the state
            >> legislature takes action on it but if they don’t do anything
            >> after one year, it becomes a permanent rule by default.

            I’m currently ‘on the road’ again ( more like “on the AIR road” )… and I didn’t stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night ( it was actually a Marriott )…

            …but the answer here is “Big fat YES”.

            Example….

            Someone in the halls of the Arizona State Parks department ( or on some Advisory committee like… oh… I don’t know… say something like the ‘Yarnell Hill Memorial State Park Advisory Board’ ) comes up with the idea that it would be good to write up a RULE for Arizona State Parks that prohibits any known PSYCHICS or MEDIUM from stepping foot onto that State Park… because we all understand that the State of Arizona doesn’t want to get anywhere near afoul of the writings in Leviticus, right?

            This new ‘proposed rule for all State Parks’ goes ‘all the way up the flagpole’… and now the full and complete Arizona State Parks BOARD ( and NOT just the Director ) votes on this ‘new rule’ and they APPROVE it.

            That ‘rule’ would then be immediately assumed to be VALID until the Arizona State Legislature ‘reviews’ it and decides to ADD it to the existing body of law governing Arizona State Parks.

            If they ( the Arizona Legislature ) sit on their hands for 1 year+… then this ‘rule’ is ASSUMED to remain valid and enforceable.

            I believe the Arizona Legislature *could* take it up AFTER than and vote it ‘invalid’… but the default ‘action time’ of one year favors the Arizona State Parks Board and the decisions they make.

            If some ‘rule’ gets anywhere near a conflict with the Arizona State Constitution ( or the U.S. Constitution ) and tries to violate civil rights or even begins to restrict the rights of any members of ‘the public’… you can be sure the AZ Legislature isn’t just going to ‘let that slide’.

            They WILL debate it… and they WILL vote ‘yay or nay’ on it.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> Sounds to me like the “devil is in the details” on this one.
            >> How do you write a rule vague enough to let all of the
            >> people you want to get in by default…get in, but yet
            >> specific enough to keep all of the people you don’t
            >> want to go in…out?

            I don’t know. Like I said… I neglected to say at a ‘Holiday Inn Express’ last night… but my gut feeling is it would be impossible… unless you just go for some carte-blanche “up to the discretion of the individual Park Managers who may or may not be likely to ‘disturb the peace’ at a public park”…

            …but I wouldn’t want to be any attorney in the Arizona Attorney General’s office who might have to defend a rule that ‘vague’ the moment it is challenged.

            >> Gary Olson also said…
            >>
            >> It’s no wonder I haven’t heard back from either the Arizona
            >> State Parks Department or the Arizona State Lands
            >> Department regarding my specific questions…yet.

            It’s a very interesting LEGAL situation.

            The moment the Arizona State Parks Department was the successful BIDDER for that parcel of land ( $304,000 ) on the steps of the Yavpai County Courthouse ( in Prescott ) at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2015… it was then NO LONGER STATE TRUST LAND.

            At that moment… this ‘already public land’ ( but held in TRUST for the Arizona State School system ) became even MORE PUBLIC.

            And at the same moment… the ‘Arizona State Land Department’ was no longer either responsible for it OR had any ‘jurisdiction’ over it.

            So there is the interesting LEGAL question.

            At that very moment… any and all CLOSURES on that ‘State Trust’ land that might have been originally issued by the previous owner ( The Arizona State Land Department ) became immediately ‘null and void’.

            That, of course, does NOT mean that at the same very moment this piece of land actually BECAME a fully-open ‘Arizona State Park’…. but what you can be sure of is that by 11:15 AM on June 30, 2015… if anyone with binoculars in Yarnell had seen someone out ‘walking on’ that piece of land who they didn’t think should be out there… the PHONE NUMBER to call would now be at the “Arizona State Parks Department” and NOT the “Arizona State Trust Land Commissioner’s” office.

            And ( according to Arizona Law ), it would now be a ‘duly appointed Park Ranger’ who needed to take care of the situation… and not local law enforcement.

            We still don’t really know who that ‘small group of widows’ was that caused State Representative ( Prescott District ) Karen Fann to add that ‘rider’ to the original bill saying that these widows should be given the “first rights” to buying the land.

            But at this point… my GUESS would be that this “small group of widows” who really DID envision themselves as being the ‘owners’ of that land and ( as such ) being able to totally violate anyone’s rights that they wanted to regarding ‘access’… would be the SAME “small group of widows” who ended up totally dominating the ‘wrongful death’ litigations and negotiations for the cases being handled by attorney
            Patrick McGroder.

            That would also be the same “small group of widows” who founded this new “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute”.

            Roxanne Warneke
            Deborah Pfiingston
            Amanda Marsh

            Juliann Aschcraft was ‘standing’ right there with Pfingston and Warneke as they ‘spoke’ at the settlement press conference… but she did NOT take the podium that day. Only Pfingston and Warneke ‘spoke’ on (quote) “behalf of the families”.

            So it’s hard to say whether Juliann Aschcraft was ALSO originally part of the “small group of widows” that wanted to buy the land for themselves and totally control access to it.

            She had her own ‘battles’ to fight with the City of Prescott around that time… so maybe she could have cared less whether the land was ever going to be ‘locked up tight’ or not.

            It’s also not known WHEN this “small group of widows” actually “gave up” on their original idea of totally controlling access to that piece of property.

            The Arizona State Legislature didn’t let Karen Fann’s “first rights of refusal for the small group of widows” rider survive in the bill… but they DID say that the first piece of ‘action’ for the new “Yarnell Memorial Site Advisory Board” was to VOTE on whether or not the widows should even have a crack at buying the land.

            The vote wasn’t even close. I believe it was ‘unanimous’ that the best thing for all concerned was to let Arizona State Parks buy the land.

            So sometime before that vote it would appear that this “small group of widows” decided to “give up” on their original plan of buying the land for themselves and then having complete access control.

            Reply

            • Correction for above.

              Amanda Marsh does not appear to have anything to do with this “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute”.

              Amanda Marsh stated her OWN ‘not-for-profit’ group dedicated to the memory of her deceased husband.

              But I believe Amanda Marsh WAS ( originally ) part of this “small group of widows” that originally lobbied State Representative Karen Fann to put that ‘rider’ in the proposed legislation saying that THEY had “first dibs” on buying the deployment site land and then totally controlling access to it.

              As stated above… we still don’t know EXACTLY who this “small group of widows” really was… even though they actually succeeded in co-authoring a ‘rider’ to a piece of legislation that went before the Arizona State Legislature.

              Reply

              • Crap. TYPO above…

                Should have been…

                Amanda Marsh STARTED her OWN ‘not-for-profit’ group dedicated to the memory of her deceased husband.

                Reply

            • Yes, the age old problem in the United States of America for those who have power. How do we enhance the rights of those we like, while at the same time how do we restrict the rights of those we don’t like, without running afoul of that pesky document our founding fathers created, the United States Constitution.

              And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I don’t think it is an interesting legal question at all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and give them the benefit of the doubt), I think it is a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands Department has the authority at all to write or enforce closures orders on Arizona State Parks.

              I just couldn’t get anybody at either agency to admit that to me today once I stopped being quite so fucking friendly and dumb ass. That’s when I am used to pulling out a big shiny gold badge and informing them I am asking my questions on behalf of the United States Government and “We The People” would sincerely appreciated their cooperation or…else.

              Sometimes…I actually miss my old job.

              Reply

              • Reply Gary Olson post on September 28, 2015 at 5:26 pm

                >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> And yes, I agree with you except for one thing, I
                >> don’t think it is an interesting legal question at
                >> all (and I realize you were trying to be nice and
                >> give them the benefit of the doubt), I think it is
                >> a no-brainer. I don’t think the Arizona State Lands
                >> Department has the authority at all to write or
                >> enforce closures orders on Arizona State Parks.

                Correct. That’s the ‘no-brainer’ part.

                The ‘interesting’ part ( which I actually forgot to talk about ) is whether or not that ‘change of ownership’ on the land also fully and legally ( and immediately ) INVALIDATES an existing ‘Court Order’ related to that piece of land.

                Say, for example, that the actual Court Order just said something like…

                “For a period of one year… Thou shalt not hike anywhere near the south half of Arizona Section 9, in Township 10 North, Range 05 West.”

                Well… technically… that has nothing to do with who OWNS the land. Some ‘Judge Roy Bean’ has determined he can order some citizen to stay away from some specific piece of land for some specific amount of time. Period. End of story.

                Or IS it ( end of story? ).

                I don’t know. Looking for a Holiday Inn Express to stay in tonight with good WiFi and see if some good ‘Googling’ can find any frickin’ precedent for this weirdness.

                Reply

    • From the document…

      B. Beginning on January 1, 2017, the Arizona state parks board shall administer the fund.

      So on that date ( if not before )… this “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” will be NO MORE… and if anyone on that ‘Board’ still wants any kind of ‘say so’ about what happens at this Arizona State Park… they will have to quickly get a job directly with the “Arizona State Parks Department’ and then quickly achieve some level of actual influence.

      This entire “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” is a TEMPORARY BOARD.

      It is meant to EVAPORATE when its ‘job’ is finished.

      POSTSCRIPT: Deborah Pfingston is heavily INVOLVED with this Board… but she is by no means officially ON the Board. She was simply ‘invited’ at one of the first meetings to be on the ‘Design subcommittee’. This is legal. These ‘Arizona State Boards’ CAN, in fact, create whatever subcommittees they want an ‘invite’ members of the public to be on them.

      But Deborah Pfingston herself does not have an actual VOTE whenever this Board takes up an issue that requires ‘voting’.

      Reply

  86. WARNING – POSSIBLE OFFICIAL ARZIZONA STATE PARKS DEPARTMENT SCAM ALERT!

    It will take some time to sort this out due to the large amount of official BULLSHIT I heard from several Arizona State employees this morning. But right now, at this time, it appears to me that it is possible the Arizona State Parks Department and the Yarnell Hill Memorial Fund are running a con game to fool people into believing access to the GMIHC deployment site and the Arizona State Parks land surrounding the site is closed under an official Closure Order that is no longer valid and in fact has not been valid since June 30,2014.

    All of that is unclear to me at this point however due to the fact that my alter ego…Special Agent Friendly Dumb Ass only works to a certain point when the questions get harder and more specific and that is when the SUBJECT in question usually starts to suspect they are not really talking to a friendly dumb ass at all…and then the red flags go up, the alarm bells go off and the SUBJECT shuts down.

    That is where we are currently at…and I will inform you when and if that changes.

    Reply

  87. FYI – I decided to take some direct action as opposed to my normal nearly useless blogging today and so I called the Arizona State Land to speak to Max Masel to discuss their Closure Order, and how I can go to the deployment site to go hiking and take photographs.

    A very nice lady named Nancy told me that they no longer owned that property and so therefore their Closure Order is no longer in effect and to find out further information about the land surrounding the deployment site, I would need to talk to the Arizona Parks Department at 602-542-4174. Which I tried to do but the man I needed to speak do was unavailable and so I left a message and asked him to call me back.

    In the meantime, I have started a web page for Joy to document her case where I will post any information that I get about her situation in the hope that shining the light on it will make it go away. The page is at;

    http://ourfiregods.com/FreeJoy.html

    Reply

    • cute…free joy…I look forward to hearing the additional call back from State Land…

      REPLY TO GARY:
      I have to lay low on topic until the start of new year however anything pertaining to anyone else but person I am not able to discuss which includes my case as I heard it….I will try to over time to assist. Limited at time because most items are not in my possession until 2016 to avoid me from using it on an emotional days…I will send you any communications on Debra since their family thinks Holly is the sole gal to trying to help her…maybe the emails will shed light…

      Also I will go to the very beginning and try to make emails as pdf or jpeg/jpg and post Paxon and Payne and Willis and Joanna Dodder and down the line so people can see the journey I went through…besides my google+ photo pages…I also will in 2016 release more information…

      SIDE NOTE: guy in library doing signs…he gave this number
      928-231-1034 belongs to Pat to help with signs and search and rescue thing…the man in Yarnell library just spoke up and gave me number to further look into it…

      Reply

      • Yes, me too. I am waiting for the famous, “I’ll call you back”, but I am not holding my breath. Their answer will probably be to get a new order signed by the right person if I am correct in that the old one may no longer be valid and enforceable..

        And then in the end, it will still be up to anyone who wants to challenge that order to hire an attorney who can write motions in the arcane language used by the legal system to perpetuate itself to challenge what is a BULLSHIT order.

        The current and possibly invalid order states in part, “on July 12, 2013, the land was closed to any and all access and use, except to the families of the fallen, those public safety officials charged with investigating the fire and protecting the and public rights of entry to be issued for official purposes.”

        However, I was told that if I asked (which I did) The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board, which of course includes Darrell Willis, Amanda Marsh, and our hapless hero, I may be given permission to hike to the site and photograph it under the supervision of the Prescott Fire Department because that is the procedure they have followed for others who wish to visit the site and who are not on the official list in the Closure Order.

        I think your attorney would need to argue your cause by stating things like this order is “unconstitutionally vague”, “arbitrary and capricious” and is selectively enforced based on who is in favor with the Board and who is not.

        The family members of the fallen? All family members? Immediate family members? How about the guests of the family members? Or maybe those who get special permission from the “family members” to violate the Closure Order? How about the guests and invitees of the Board or those approved by the Board? Can the Board give them permission to violate an official “Closure Order?”

        Typical government overreach the Republicans and the Right Wing hate so much until they do it. Then they not only think it is fine…they fucking love it.

        WTF…Over?

        Reply

          • Oh…and one more thing. The Arizona State Parks Department may not even have the authority to issue an official closure order for state parks land since that authority would have to be given to them by the Arizona State Legislature and maybe this has never come up before so they don’t have it.

            I’m sure they can close a state park for lots of reasons, lack of funds so it is closed to everybody, it’s after 10:oop.m. so it is closed, or due to safety reasons, but they may not be able to selectively close it to the public based on the whims of what are in effect…just other citizens who have no more authority than Joy does. People like Darrell Willis, Amanda Marsh, our hapless hero or thousands of members of the families of the fallen.

            That may be the reason there hasn’t been a new closure order issued and this entire issue is nothing but an official scam…a con game for those who don’t know how to ask the right questions and who don’t have legal representations which is beyond the means of most loyal Americans.

            That is unless of course some Dumb Ass Attorney like Shapiro will represent you pro bono. It sounds like our hapless hero really pulled a fast one over on Dumb Ass Shapiro? I love it. You can’t make this shit up!

            Reply

  88. THE NEW STYLE OF JOY….I HOPE IT WORKS/HELPS….
    HERE YA GO—

    TOPIC:
    NOBODY IS ALLOWED IN 320 ACRES EXCEPT INVESTIGATORS ASSIGNED TO YHF.
    HOLLY IS NOT ASSIGNED AND HOLLY IS THE RESEARCHER ASSISTANT TO AN AUTHOR WHO IS MAKING A POSSIBLE BOOK ON YHF NOT OSHA OR SAIT OR ANY INVESTIGATION TEAM.

    REPLY ON J ASHCRAFT’S BLOG:
    I earlier was sent link to that blog you shared of J. Ashcraft’s and thought how neat…rock hunt…road trip…cool…and when I was asked my feedback I said just that—cool rock hunt…but the person was thinking aren’t you upset after all your hours invested that J. Ashcraft does not recognize InvestgativeMedia’s efforts…or yours…and names Holly as the sole person…My reply was no big deal…I don’t think of it as an investment but something we all should do for one another to unify and properly assess this fire in hopes to have change and for the missing elements to come forward and no cliches are needed in doing that…You see I shared to Holly all the details as they came and it was her that said to me “you share what you get and I will share to you when I get some thing…” I did my part. She did not. Yet I was not alone on that because she did it to another. I am not trying to stir any trouble as Dale1 perceived my comment but to STOP people feeling free to talk about cuts and stobs in the restricted area as like they have permission to be there because they do not…if I the EYEWITNESS to the YHF and the person who hiked avidly to the area before the fire can’t get permission to go with a loved one of the GMHS…there was a few too that wanted me to go…last one who said you can go with me…you are my friend Joy and Sonny…that was the father of Grant…Grant Scott McKee…I tried over time to get permission always being denied with statement to me…ONLY the family can go (like visitors…ICU in hospitals)…that is what everyone has to follow was told to me and that I am not singled out…and yet that’s not what is happening…

    THE ONLY ONES ALLOWED WHERE THE MEN DIED ARE THE FAMILIES OF THE FALLEN>>>

    THE ORDER DID NOT STATE FRIENDS AND FIRE COMMUNITY OR WHOEVER THE FAMILY WANTS—

    I KNOW THERE ARE GREY AREAS AS ITS OBVIOUS WITH CHIEF BEN PALM’S ROSTER AND HOLLY NEILL SLEEPING AT HELMS AND FEELING THAT PERMITS HER TO PEAK OUT TO RESTRICTED AREAS>

    I TOLD HOLLY I TRIED MY HARDEST WHEN OUT WITH OSHA TO SEE ANYTHING>>>

    SOURCE OF MY INFORMATION IN WRITING:
    http://azstateparks.com/committees/downloads/Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders.pdf

    SOURCE OF MY INFORMATION BY TELEPHONE:
    Max Masel
    Director
    602-542-3000

    you go see if the story remains the same or if Max is a chameleon…he seem very straight forward…

    From now on I will not post unless I state
    TOPIC/ SOURCE FOR MY INFORMATION/ EXPLANATION….
    from now on that is how I will post only.
    No more going off talking about personal stuff even though I know MY family and friends come here and they can say “oh I remember that…” I will stay focused to JUST the YHF…I tend to do what I do on my hiking page (zazzle) and ramble off but from now on I hope this helps me be a better online communicator. By the way…I hiked MUCH MORE folks than Holly did the legal way not for my own agenda or angle or book but to HELP all the ones affected by the fire…Your welcome 🙂

    I cannot be upset at Gary…he is just trying to work through why I kept mentioning state land bs in the year 2015 and well, its a touchy topic like I have said…I am known as the desert walker and have a clean record and so it was not taken well from my end to get slapped that on me.
    Everyone says they are just doing their jobs…

    Reply

    • Joy – I for one enjoy all of your stories that are a little off topic. I think this blog is about a lot more than just the Yarnell Hill Fire. It is an experiment in social media that is only based on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And don’t take my criticism to literally, remember…I am a jerk.

      And I don’t think there should be different rules for different people. I think everybody should be treated the same, but I don’t think that is what is happening.

      Marti likes your writing as well and she says I just need to learn how to read better, and I think she is right.

      Reply

    • TOPIC: Max Masel

      QUESTION:

      Did you agree with me. Straight shooter and explains things thorough?

      Comment/REPLY:

      Last time I had to inquire was when Grant wanted to go…so that was week of my bday (July 1)/Memorial Anniversary 2015…

      PAUSE:
      I am in Yarnell library…a man is on his cell…he is loud…he is doing signs for mines for the Fire Depts. and GPS’ing them as well for http://www.ycsrt.org/…he just made a plywood sign for Southern Yavapai Fire Department for Wilhoit….I want to add when listening to this all that alot of these wildfires in Arizona are happening in mining areas…the man says the signs just have fire dept emblems and I am talking to him to see photo of his art work…he thinks he may have them.

      Reply

  90. Holly Neill—-Gary is Right on. While she has some Fire experience as a Crewman, Radio Operator and Faller what Higher Red Card Qualifications dose she have.
    Possibly Strike team leader Engine, Crew, Faller that is the next step above Squad Boss.
    That is her some total of experience. In California by 13 years 3 summer seasonal 3 to 4 months,
    3 years 13/13 and 18/8 when I went to the Angeles I was a Strike team leader Or back then a Crew Boss–Engen Boss–Falling Boss—Tractor Boss. 7 years on the Angeles moved there for a Full time 26 PP appointment. I worked my way up to a Sector Boss/Back firing team Specialist/ Davison Boss
    at Division Boss level I also achieved Type 2 Line Boss and Fire Boss. All of that came from many winter S course training sessions. and a ton of Fires some where well over 350. 100 as a Crew Boss 50 as a Sector Boss and 20 as a Division Boss. Ops and Fire Boss 2 on severial District Fires.
    I was also a trained Fire investigator on the Angeles before I left there and a State Fire warden thru out my carrier. That makes you a Investigator writing citations and investigating fire Cause and a witness in a Court of law for the FS.

    I have and still Question Holly’s Credentials’

    Now for the real down and out. While the two safety groups she is on, who also give us some good information and write letters to the Government that’s all they do .
    The very thought that they or us will sway the Government to change policy is a foolish day dream.
    Employees can not even do that unless the Regional Forester Identifies a committee to research policy and new direction on the National level requests a study. ‘
    The Fire Gods and the National interagency fire center and Fire coordination group act independently of any Civilian groups. Always have and Always will. The Government is doing its own study and development on Fire Shelters and development. Just like any new changes in Fire Safety Policy. We can make noise but they make Policy at the Region and National level.
    —–There is no new policy happening———-

    Reply

    • Right. If there is one word that describes the wildland firefighting community which is led and dominated by the U.S. Forest Service, it is…tradition.

      Taking on or changing the wildland firefighting community is very similar to what fighting Hydra (the nine headed water serpent from Greek mythology) would be like. Good luck! Because you are going to need lots of it.

      If you want to get return letters with lots of vague statements, empty assurances, and general platitudes…you should write all of them letters demanding changes in how they do business.

      As I have said before, the only way to even get to the plate to take a swing at the ball and maybe get to first base (to use a sports analogy) would be to go through Congress. You would need to start by enlisting a congressional sponsor to get you in the door.

      I would actually really like to know (and I am not trying to be a sarcastic jerk), exactly what is it that the Wildland Firefighting Guardians Institute wants so that deaths like those that occurred on the Yarnell Hill Fire can never happen again? What do THEY think went wrong?

      Reply

      • The real and distinct Problem.
        The State Type 2 team was a mess, did the State fix that problem?

        The Feds are basically saying we do not have that problem at the Type 1 and 2 level. We went through a re check of certification and reset the Teams. If we have a problem we will address it.

        Then you Have Granit Mountain they as easily as I can put it failed to follow the 10 and 18 and did not survive their ignoring the Basics Rules or parts there of which include LCES.

        The Feds have reinforced and added retraining of the 10 and 18
        They are a basic part of the 40 hour Fire Fighter Training and refresher courses. The failure is the same as many others for several reasons that you can not train for like Human errors.
        Fatigue Etc.

        Internally I am betting they have already gone through lessons learned over and over. So far this year we have done well with
        Type 1 and type 2 crews and I attribute that to the retraining and push on the 10 and 18. At least no Federal Burn overs of Crews.
        Or deployments.

        Reply

  91. Dang, I was wrong AGAIN. I do think we should have a big tent where everyone is welcome, but not everyone’s opinion is worth listening to as far as I am concerned. Holly NEILL is one of those. Which of course, others who post on this blog have already said.

    Several days ago I told NEILL that it seemed to me that she was trying desperately to find reasons why what happened to the GMIHC could not be blamed on Eric Marsh and I asked her if that was true, which she never answered.

    A simple internet search of Holly NEILL’S name reveals that Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute has a number of high profile figures from recent events on its board. These figures include;

    1. Board Co-Chair Deborah Pfingston
    2. Board Member Darrell Willis
    3. Board Member Holly NEILL

    So no, if there is one thing NEILL cannot ever do in my opinion is claim that she is part of any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation, which was also expressed on this blog previously by someone else. So…end of story.

    http://wfgi.org/about-us/board-members/

    Reply

    • This “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” ( WFGI ) thing is the ‘foundation’ that was established with the money that family members Deborah Pfingston, Juliann Ashcraft and Roxanne Warneke receieved ( $50,000 each ) from Arizona Forestry as a result of the ‘settlement’ that was announced just before the second anniversary of the tragedy.

      There is actually still no proof any of them have RECEIVED those settlements funds… since they might be tied to the cessation of ALL litigation… and Marcia McKee’s wrongful death suit filed on behalf of her son, Grant McKeee, is ( as far as I know ) still on ‘appeal’.

      Holly Neill already had the ‘Safety Matters’ thing going as of (circa) February of 2014.
      That website is here…
      http://ffsafetymatters.org/

      Founding members of THAT deal were/are…

      Holly Neill: Wildland Firefighter: National Park Service & U.S. Forest Service: Retired
      Dan O’Brien: Career Wildland Firefighter: National Park Service: Retired
      Elizabeth Anderson: Fire Ecologist:National Park Service & U.S. Forest Service: Retired
      Barry Hicks: U.S. Forest Service: Retired

      The mission of THAT original ‘Safety Matters’ Holly Neill group is as stated below…

      ——————————————————————————–
      The purpose of this forum is to call attention to deficiencies in wildand firefighter safety presented by current wildland fire management systems. We encourage firefighters, the public, and their representatives to support and demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighter and public safety is truly the first priority in all fire management actions.
      ——————————————————————————–

      That’s great. That means that this IM forum should have that organization’s ( and Holly Neill’s ) full and complete endorsement. The goals are ( and always have been ) identical.

      On July 11, 2015 ( Just 12 days after Pfingston, Ashcraft and Warneke spoke at the Yarnell partial settlement press conference ), this new WFGI group announced they would be working ‘side by side’ with this other ‘Safety Matters’ group.

      ————————————————————————
      Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change
      Gallery July 11, 2015

      At WFGI we will be working along side Safety Matters to fight for Wildland Firefighter safety policies.
      ————————————————————————

      Holly Neill is the only ‘shared Board Member’ between the two organizations.

      From the ‘Biographies’ section at the website above…

      ————————————————————————————–
      Holly Neill
      Gallery July 12, 2015

      Holly Neill fought fire for the National Park Service, U.S. Forest Service and private contractors for twelve seasons, from 1995 to 2007. Her federal experience includes work on engine and helitack crews, Incident Command Post radio operator, and Fire Use Module member. Her contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller.

      Neill is a research specialist and consultant on the Yarnell Hill Fire and the tragic deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013. She seeks answers to many questions left unanswered by the two official reports, by doing data research, conducting interviews, visiting the fire site and related places, and collaborating with Granite Mountain Hotshot family members and others involved in the fire. She believes that a more complete, accurate and lasting factual legacy can and will be left to the GMIHC and their families, one that can stand the test of time. Firefighter safety and lessons learned can only benefit by a full accounting of the decisions made on the fire and who made them, and most importantly an explanation of why they were made.

      Neill also acts as a research partner for author John Maclean, who is working on a book about the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Neill is a founding member of Safety Matters: A Wildland Firefighter Forum for Change, a group of fire veterans advocating for wildland firefighter safety. The group, which calls attention to deficiencies in wildand firefighter safety in current wildland fire management systems, encourages firefighters, the public, and their representatives to support and demand changes in policy and practices so that wildland firefighter and public safety is truly the first priority in all fire management actions.
      ————————————————————————

      ** INVESTIGATIONS

      The only place I can find anything related to the ‘Independent Investigations’ part of what this group says it was going to be doing is a little section on the HOME page with the label “Investigations’.

      There is only one entry there… and it’s just a link to the 1 page 72 hour report the Forest Service issued for the Twisp Fire.

      The author of that USFS Twisp 72 hour report was/is…

      John Phipps
      Twisp Fire Fatalities Coordinated Response Protocol Leader.

      There is no ‘comment’ from anyone in this WFGI group about this Twisp fire… or whether they intend to be a true “Guardian Institute’ and even begin to do any ‘investigating’ of their own.

      Likewise… even though MOST of the ‘Board Members’ of this ‘Guardian Institute’ ( Darrell Willis, former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood, William Waldock, Pfingston, Ashcraft, etc, ) all live right there in Prescott… I can’t find any evidence that even one of them has walked over to the old Granite Mountain Station 7, walked into Eric Marsh’s old office where former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble now reports to work ever day… and said…

      “Hey Ronnie… ya know that video you shot in Yarnell at exactly 4:27 PM while you were sittin’ in the driver’s seat of that BR Crew Carrier?… any chance you remember the CALL SIGN of that person Eric Marsh was ‘reporting’ to over the radio and giving that “they’re comin’ from of the heel of the fire” status report to?”

      If they are serious about ‘continuing’ any investigation of the Yarnell Hill Incident… that would be a good place to start.

      Right with the person who now comes to work every day in Eric Marsh’s old office.

      Reply

      • Actually… this WFGI Board Member ‘Doug Harwood’ guy ( former Granite Mountain squad boss ) probably runs into former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble all the time.

        The both work for the Prescott Fire Department.

        Harwood made it all the way to most WFF’s Holy Grail of a ‘perma-job/benefits’ with ‘structure’ in the same place where they work/worked as a Hotshot.

        If the WFGI is *really* interested in finding out a little more about what the hell was going down in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… then Harwood should just swing by Station 7 and take Gamble out to lunch.

        Reply

        • As a result of my minor in sociology I self diagnosed myself with a passive/aggressive personality a long time ago. Wait a minute…that self diagnosis would be as a result to the few classes in psychology I was required to take in order to get my ticket punched for a BS.

          And as a result of this disorder, I have a tendency to put up with things until they build up to a point where somebody pushes the right button and then I…REACT! That is what has finally happened with NEILL. So heads up…I am about to get down in the weeds with another lesson in “the system” that the average reader on this blog may not be too interested in reading about.

          BUT…after reading that NEILL is on not one, but TWO wildland firefighter safety foundations, committees…whatever, as a “wildland firefighter for the National Park Service, the U.S. Forest Service and private contractors for twelve seasons, from 1995 to 2007. Her federal experience includes work on engine and helitack crews, Incident Command Post radio operator, and Fire Use Module member. Her contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller who is now retired”, I am going to have to throw down the bullshit card!

          My trigger point actually came after reading an article that she wrote and was published in The National Smokejumper Association Quarterly Magazine “Smokejumper” dated July 2014, as a research specialist and consultant on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And nobody emailed me a copy of it, I just like to keep up on everything smokejumpers are doing with their lives when they aren’t bronzing on the tarmacs so they can imitate Greek Gods and Goddesses. If you don’t want to track down NEILL’S article yourself, but you do want to read it, email me and I will email you back a copy of it. This article of course, is all about NEILL’S take on the Yarnell Hill Fire to date. So…

          I have explained some of the convoluted process most Forestry Technicians (which is what most federal wildland firefighters are because all federal agencies use the same job descriptions) go through in order to finally have a “career” as a wildland firefighter in federal service. And once again, I may be a little fuzzy on some of the details, but I have the gist of it right.

          I think there are actually “summer” employees or at least their used to be and these same employees were sometimes referred to as “summer seasonal”, “seasonal”, or “temporary”, or “summer seasonal temporary” but the bottom line was this, you were on a not-to-exceed a 180 day appointment.

          Which of course means you couldn’t work more than 180 days on the same appointment, but you could be laid off Friday afternoon at quitting time and be rehired on Monday morning at starting time under a new not-to-exceed a 180 day appointment. So tracking this stuff can be pretty hard, so it is really easy for somebody to blur or cross the fine lines between highlighting, padding, exaggerating, and downright falsifying their wildland firefighting experience and it can be hard to nail down.

          Even after some employees (like I did) become employees with “career status” with access to health insurance, retirement benefits and enhanced job security in terms of being laid off or terminated for cause, it can be very murky because like in my case, even after I was considered a career employee, I was a “career conditional” employee before I became a “permanent full time employee.”

          And that too, can be a tortuous route even with career status. For example I was lucky enough to hit all of the stops on the way, which everyone doesn’t do. I was first a 13/13, which meant I was only guaranteed to work for 13 pay periods and then I was subject to being laid off for 13 pay periods (there of course are 26 pay periods per year). I was then an 18/8, a 20/6, a 25/1, and finally a permanent with a 26/0. This of course is how they control their budgets and really make sure they want you as a permanent employee by vetting you through a very difficult and time consuming process which usually takes years…lots of years.

          Although…truthfully, it wasn’t really all that hard for me, I was married to a beautiful Registered Nurse who worked full time in ICU, we didn’t have any children, and who thought hanging out with me while I hung out with my buddies was a good way to spend her time. OH…how things changed and once they did, I really missed the good ole days. So I got to screw around with my laid off hotshot buddies, go hiking in the Grand Canyon often, and generally go camping, hiking, hunting, cutting firewood to sell on the side AND still have time to lay around and lick my nuts while collecting unemployment.

          Is it any wonder that I have now regressed in my golden years back to live in the “happy place” in my mind when I was a hotshot before I was forced to take on a very thin veneer of a civility as a white collar with tie (real ties, not ties that clip-on) worker and get a “real” fucking J. O. B.? Can you understand why I now think, talk, act and basically live like a laid off hotshot again? What a great fucking life! I have even regressed for the most part, all of the way back to when I was a ring leader with the back-of-the-bus pack of hell raisers. Don’t blame me for the things I say and do, I can’t help myself.

          Forgive me…I digress. Back to the issue at hand. To further complicate things, not all agencies (federal, state or local), regions or states, or a wide variety of different names for administrative areas all of the various wildland firefighting agencies use to mark their individual boundaries are created equal.

          For example, an old friend of mine who was also a hotshot crew boss from the mighty (I didn’t make up this nickname, it was and probably is still widely used) Coconino finished his career as the U.S. Forest Service Director of Aviation and Fire Management for Region 5 which is California and the Pacific Islands. His budget was larger than all other USFS regional fire budgets combined, so you also have to look where someone worked and exactly what they did to really understand and evaluate their fire experience.

          And if you have followed this thread all along, you already know that Southern California has always been ground zero for the very worst wildfires and all hotshot crews trace their roots back to the Cradle of Hotshot Civilization, the Cleveland and the Angeles National Forests back in the 1940’s.

          Which is why Bob has a lot more experience with fighting fire in subdivisions in Wildland/Urban Interface Zones that a lot of other wildland firefighters do. California tips the scales on everything. And as with everything I say, there are exceptions and I usually speak in generalities. For example, CAL Fire is unlike any other state wildland firefighting organization because they really are a BIG DOG…WOOF! My region, Region 3 was number two in the wildfire world…so we had to try harder than those sissies in R-5.

          So…now that you have the back story, I can finally get to NEIL’S experience, which has been a bone of contention among old fire dogs who email me and myself for some time now, so I am finally going to address the issue…head on. There are exceptions with wildland firefighters who work for the National Park Service, such as those who work in California and have mutual aid agreements with neighbors like CAL Fire, but in general the National Park Service (NPS) is not a very highly thought of, or respected wildland firefighting agency, even though all of their good wildland firefighters are ex-USFS.

          They lead all other federal land management agencies in most other areas, including their law enforcement program…but not if fire. The NPS hotshot crews are also exceptions to this rule and there are some others, but not very many.

          While I was going to college, my “fire seasons” were as short as 3 months and that is not uncommon. I also have to take issue with her experience as a “Incident Command Post radio operator,” and “Fire Use Module member.” The last one I think means she was certified to work on control burns and maybe burn out or back fires as a crew member and the first one means she was qualified to talk on a radio in fire camp.

          NEILL also claims “contract experience includes safety liaison for a federally contracted timber faller organization and B certified contract faller” and since I have picked up her husband is a highly qualified and very experienced logger and contract “faller” (teams who go through fire areas generally after the fire is controlled dropping hazard trees and snags by the dozens if not hundreds). The experience that NEILL is claiming in this area could also really cloud (make it very easy to exaggerate) her experience, since going out on one fire for one shift could technically count as having worked a “season.”

          And for you taxpayers out there, don’t worry. Uncle Sam, like everything when it comes to personnel issues has this wired pretty tight. If you work for one day, it counts for one day. And you have to work for 30 days, for those days to count as one month, even if it takes you 10 years to get there. You have to work twelve, 30 day periods for it to count for one year (towards retirement or other benefits).

          And all of this explains why I retired with 30 (12 month) years even though it took me more than 30 years to get there. Side note: Once you get to be permanent full-time, you can buy back your time as a temporary employee but you have to pay what you would have paid into the retirement system at the time…plus interest, which can really add up after a few decades.

          Finally…I have the biggest problem with the fact that NEILL claims to be “retired.” I just don’t see how that is possible. As I have mentioned before, I was offered a medical disability retirement for issues related to smoke inhalation which ended my hotshot career.

          BUT…that was after years of serious and well documented health problems with extensive medical tests and doctors visits, treatments and many witness and supervisor written statements that had been painstakingly collected over the years by personnel and myself in my Official Personnel Folder (OPF). I had (and still do) have OPF files that are as thick as the old Encyclopedia Britannica S volume on nothing but my medical problems with smoke inhalation.

          In other words, you can add “medical disability retirements” to the long list of things the federal government does not hand out very often, very easily, to very many people, for very many reasons. In other words, I don’t believe NEILL has one of those. If she does, than I am prepared to be corrected.

          Other than that, the only way to “retire” with a “public safety” (firefighter and law enforcement officer…early retirement) retirement from the federal government is to work for 20 years with 12 months in each years and 30 days in each month, and then you don’t get to start collecting any money until your 50th birthday.

          The bottom line is that I don’t believe NEILL “retired” as a wildland firefighter, I think NEILL “quit” as a wildland firefighter. Furthermore, I think NEILL worked for only a few months on an engine crew and helitack crew and she may or may not have seen any wildfire of any consequence during that period of time depending on where she worked and exactly what she did. So…I’m afraid that I am going to have to throw down the bullshit card on NEILLS wildland firefighting experience, end of story (Fargo).

          Reply

        • Reading. Copying.

          It’s been a brutally hard week for me.

          Feeling a need to honor you and Gary’s pursuing of this by responding.

          I have really appreciated Holly’s and SafetyMatter’s challenging of the USFS and the Powers That Be on the Up Side. Even as I have kept saying ‘LOOK UP” on this fire, even to the point of scrabbling into that whole “Hail Mary Plan” that, if Calvin hadn’t kept being the squeaky wheel about what happened with the dozer and it’s operator, we might have missed.

          Holly Neill is, IMHO, challenging how the USFS et al are prioritizing how wildland fires are being fought. Which leads into our conversations about the Twisp Fire and the Butte Fire. I believe the questions she is asking about this stuff are valuable and valid.

          On the other hand, I do believe that she is woefully MISTAKEN regarding what she is currently saying about the Yarnell Fire at this time..

          Regarding whether Eric was actually functioning as a real Lookout, whether he made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and whether any sawyers that may or may not have accompanied him could have had time to have done any of the cuttings she is looking at, all things considered.

          i just don’t see it.

          Holly I hope you are still reading this.

          Even though, you, as well as, apparently many others, like to brand us a just a bunch of conspiracy theorists.

          Ever post I have ever made here has been based on as honest of an evaluation of the evidence as I have been able to possibly evaluate that. And every time I have written anything pushing the envelope, I have said, “Please, if I am wrong, give me some evidence to disprove me.”

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 26, 2015 at 10:38 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Reading. Copying.
            >>
            >> It’s been a brutally hard week for me.

            Sorry to hear, Marti.

            Winston Churchill quote comin’ at ya…

            “Whenever you find yourself going through hell… just KEEP GOING”.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> I have really appreciated Holly’s and SafetyMatter’s
            >> challenging of the USFS and the Powers That Be on the
            >> Up Side. Even as I have kept saying ‘LOOK UP” on this fire,
            >> even to the point of scrabbling into that whole “Hail Mary
            >> Plan” that, if Calvin hadn’t kept being the squeaky wheel
            >> about what happened with the dozer and it’s operator, we
            >> might have missed.

            Calvin was/is/always will be… a “Steely Eyed Rocket Man”.

            He never fully believed the ‘push’ theory.

            I have to admit that I DID… but I now know why.

            It was absolutely inconceivable ( to me ) that Eric Marsh could have been out AHEAD of those men that day and ‘scouting’ that route… and *might* have been in a position to see what a mistake was being made… and they all still ended up burning to death, anyway.

            A part of me still doesn’t even want to believe it.

            A part of me still wants to see/hear more PROOF ( like more people with some guts to say what was happening or what they were hearing ) before I will fully believe it.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> Holly Neill is, IMHO, challenging how the USFS et al are
            >> prioritizing how wildland fires are being fought. Which leads
            >> into our conversations about the Twisp Fire and the
            >> Butte Fire. I believe the questions she is asking about this
            >> stuff are valuable and valid.

            Holly Neill’s Facebook page associated with her ‘Safety Matters’ group does mention the Twisp Fire… but there are no serious ‘questions’ being asked ( yet ) by this group regarding the obvious question ( which is the same one as Yarnell )…

            What in the hell were those men even DOING being where they were, WHEN they were there?

            WHO TOLD THEM that was where they were supposed to be?

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> On the other hand, I do believe that she is woefully MISTAKEN
            >> regarding what she is currently saying about the Yarnell Fire at
            >> this time..
            >>
            >> Regarding whether Eric was actually functioning as a real
            >> Lookout, whether he made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and
            >> whether any sawyers that may or may not have accompanied
            >> him could have had time to have done any of the cuttings she
            >> is looking at, all things considered.
            >>
            >> i just don’t see it.

            See new post below about Juliann Ashcraft’s visit with Holly Neill as part of Ashcraft’s ‘Be Better’ nationwide tour in the 1983 Greyhound Bus she bought and converted to a ‘land yacht’…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308878

            There seems to be every likelihood that that same spew that Holly Neill recently tried to put forth publicly is exactly what she is telling the ‘family members’… and they are BELIEVING her.

            I am with Bob Powers on this.

            Until she starts presenting a better case ( in public ) to support her ‘opinions’… or at least lets some REAL EXPERTS take a look at things she might have believed she has ‘found’… then there is every likelihood that she is just trying to make the evidence fit her OWN ‘narrative’ and her OWN ‘agenda’.

            For good, bad or ugly… at least that is what happens HERE.

            Reply

            • To be clear… when I said…

              “For good, bad or ugly… at least that is what happens HERE”.

              I meant that we have ALL been subject to the ‘meat grinder’ here, and the sharp eyes/ears/intellect of others.

              And that is as it should be.

              Whatever it is Holly Neill thinks she has found or knows… she needs to be prepared to have it ‘challenged’.

              If she just waits until Maclean publishes her ‘findings’ in some book… that could end up being a big mistake.

              Reply

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 26, 2015 at 7:14 pm

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> The bottom line is that I don’t believe NEILL “retired” as a wildland
          >> firefighter, I think NEILL “quit” as a wildland firefighter. Furthermore,
          >> I think NEILL worked for only a few months on an engine crew and
          >> helitack crew and she may or may not have seen any wildfire of any
          >> consequence during that period of time depending on where she
          >> worked and exactly what she did. So…I’m afraid that I am going to
          >> have to throw down the bullshit card on NEILLS wildland firefighting
          >> experience, end of story (Fargo).

          A wealth of REAL information up above, Gary. Thank you.

          And yes… if I can work ‘part time’ for someone for just 12 years and then actually ‘retire’ ( in the accepted sense of that word ) with something like a pension and/or benefits…

          …then I ( all of us? ) have obviously made the wrong career choice(s).

          12 years of part-time work to earn an official RETIREMENT?

          Sign. Me. Up.

          ** MORE HOLLY NEILL AND WFGI ‘INVESTIGATING’….

          As long as we are hitting on this topic of Holly Neill being the ONLY ‘Board Member’ shared between the ‘Safety Matters’ organization and the newly formed ‘Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute’…

          …here’s an addendum.

          Juliann Ashcraft is currently ‘on the road’ and touring the entire country ( all 50 states, supposedly ) in the 1983 Greyhound Bus that she bought and converted to an RV camper doing her “Be Better” tour.

          She created a special online BLOG to report about all her travels ( with all four of her children ).

          The BLOG begins in April of 2015, around April 16, and 10 days later, on April 26, 2015, one of the first ‘stops’ for this ‘tour’ was at the home of Holly Neill and her husband Wayne in Farmington, New Mexico.

          Juliann Aschcraft’s full BLOG from that visit is HERE…

          http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html

          From that BLOG entry…
          ———————————————————————–
          Holly was a wildland firefighter for twelve years. She is an unbelievably strong, determined, ambitious, and highly capable woman. In an incredible twist of fate, Wayne and Holly met on an assignment fighting wildfire. They met, sparks flew (pun totally intended), and so began their love for one another and their life together. They are quite the dynamic duo.

          Throughout the years, Holly and Wayne have been closely associated with several incidents involving wildland firefighting fatalities. They have lost brothers amidst the blaze and have been affected by the grief that follows such a tragedy. Storm King was among those fires, and afterwards, Holly and Wayne reached out and took an active role in assisting the families of those who were lost.

          Likewise, they immediately became involved when they learned that our men died on June 30, 2013.

          Since that time, and throughout the past two years, Holly and Wayne have been completely engaged and committed to finding the truth.

          Holly told me that there hasn’t been a single day since the Incident Report was released with the initial “findings” that she hasn’t been researching all of our unanswered questions. With their knowledge of fire behavior, the operations and procedures on a fire line, the dynamics of a hotshot crew, and the purpose of incident command, they have expert knowledge in areas that others of us did not. At a time when the family members who were seeking the truth were solely carrying the weight of sorting through all the cover-ups and deceit, and being overcome with desire for understanding, Holly and Wayne offered a much needed helping hand.

          Holly has walked the path taken by our own GMIHC in Yarnell, over and over again…taking note of anything that may lead to a better understanding of the events that took place there that fateful day. She has been a beacon of hope that the truth will unravel as she has uncovered many pieces of information that have already assisted in more closure and more healing for our family. Because of the immense work Holly and Wayne have put into discovering the truth, I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why they didn’t come home to us.

          Holly allowed me to pick at her brain and ask countless questions during our visit. Without fail, I feel empowered, hopeful, and a sense of peace whenever I speak to her. She is a true blessing and a dear friend
          ————————————————————————

          A few select ‘quotes’…

          >> Juliann Ashcraft wrote…
          >>
          >> At a time when the family members who were seeking the
          >> truth were SOLELY carrying the weight of sorting through all the
          >> cover-ups and deceit, and being overcome with desire for
          >> understanding, Holly and Wayne offered a much needed
          >> helping hand.

          Juliann must be referring to the same timeframe when a man named John Dougherty was expending immense amounts of time, energy, resources and bandwidth to also try to make sure the family members could find out more than was in the published reports.

          Not to mention a large amount of public volunteers spending equally huge amounts of time comparing that evidence to the published reports.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Since that time, and throughout the past two years, Holly and Wayne
          >> have been completely engaged and committed to finding the truth.

          As have a WHOLE lot of ‘other people’.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> With their knowledge of fire behavior, the operations and procedures
          >> on a fire line, the dynamics of a hotshot crew, and the purpose of
          >> incident command, they have expert knowledge in areas that
          >> others of us did not.

          Mayne… maybe not. Still haven’t really seen the “full, detailed resume’s” for either one of these ‘experts’.

          >> Juliann Ashcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> She ( Holly ) has been a beacon of hope that the truth will unravel
          >> as she has uncovered many pieces of information that have already
          >> assisted in more closure and more healing for our family.

          Such as?

          >> Juliann Ashcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Holly allowed me to pick at her brain and ask countless
          >> questions during our visit.

          Such as?

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> I believe that one day I will be able to tell my children the facts
          >> about what happened to their Daddy and his 18 friends and why
          >> they didn’t come home to us.

          I wonder if Holly Neill took any time to explain to her exactly WHEN whatever the heck it is she has been doing and/or any ‘conclusions’ she has come to will ever see the light of day?

          Is everything she is doing really just ‘contract work’ for John Maclean?… and NONE of this ‘diligent research’ will ever see the light of day until whenever the heck it is that Mr. Maclean decides to publish something?

          Just curious.

          >> Juliann Aschcraft also wrote…
          >>
          >> Without fail, I feel empowered, hopeful, and a sense of peace
          >> whenever I speak to her.

          I take this to mean that ‘without fail’… Juliann Aschcraft simply believes every word that comes out of Holly Neill’s mouth whenever she talks with her.

          Since we don’t know WHAT Holly Neill is actually TELLING Juliann… it’s hard to say whether any of it needs to be subject to more review or scrutiny.

          Best guess would be ‘probably’.

          This is still the woman ( Neill ) who absolutely believed that Eric Marsh had taken sawyers with him just based on one of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos showing FFs with saws exiting the RIGHT frame of the photograph. She didn’t even bother to check ( before publishing her opinion as fact ) that the same men were then captured in other photos, proving they had NOT left that ‘rest spot’ area.

          As far as Juliann ‘believing’ everything Holly Neill might be telling her… a familiar quote comes to mind…

          “It’s not what they don’t know that bothers me…
          It’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so.”
          Mark Twain

          If Holly Neill is telling Granite Mountain Hotshot family members ( in isolation without any other input or vetting ) what she recently tried to profess in public… that she has evidence that “LCES was taken care of that day… something else must have gone wrong”…

          Well… what can I say.

          Wait a minute… I DO know what to say.

          That’s her own ‘agenda’ fulfilling HORSESHIT… and she is doing a DISSERVICE to those family members by pushing it on them as the TRUTH.

          ** POSTSCRIPT

          There were only two comments left on this BLOG entry about Juliann’s visit with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne.

          One of them was from “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” co-founder Deborah Pfingston.

          ————————————————————————–
          Comment from: Deborah Pfingston – April 30, 2015 at 7:32 AM

          Holly and Wayne are amazing!! Truth will prevail. I am so glad that
          all of you were able to spend a day together. Love all of you.
          —————————————————————————

          ** THE BOTTOM LINE

          Do I ( personally ) HOPE that this Holly Neill person HAS discovered some things that the investigations did not… and that there might come some time in the unknown future when she decides to stop treating it all like some military secret… and only subject to her own personal distribution list?

          You dam betcha.

          Do I also ( personally ) think that because of her past track record of wrong ( published ) assumptions that whatever she is pushing off on family members as the TRUTH ought to be subject to more ‘vetting’ from some (other) REAL EXPERTS?

          You double damn betcha.

          Reply

          • Ya, I read this one too, which just about made me want to throw up. WTF…Over? Just one more of my buttons.

            FYI – I now know that NEILL spent her time with the NPS on an engine (at least) at Zion National Park. Within that park, she MAY have put out a few campfires that were left unattended or hiked to a snag burning on a ridge from a lighting strike…maybe?

            The area around Zion is not known for large or severe wildfires. Did she ever go with an engine to New Mexico, Colorado, Arizona or California to fight a real wildfire…maybe? But I doubt it.

            Every wildland firefighter keeps a detailed firefighting experience log, with fire, assignment, size, dates, etc.

            I will show her mine, if she will show me hers.

            Reply

            • And… as you await your recording of that ‘railroad job’ that was done on Joy Collura in a Prescott courtroom… I suppose the little ‘factoid’ above didn’t miss your gaze…

              >> Juliann Ashcraft said…
              >>
              >> Holly has walked the path taken by our own GMIHC in
              >> Yarnell, over and over again…taking note of anything that
              >> may lead to a better understanding of the events that
              >> took place there that fateful day.

              So… that would differ ( in ANY way ) from what the amazing Joy Colura was doing… in WHAT WAY?

              Oh.. I forgot… could it be… the BIBLE way?

              Missus Leviticus actually commented on Juliann’s report about Holly ‘constantly hiking the closed land’ with this…

              ————————————————————————–
              Comment from: Deborah Pfingston – April 30, 2015 at 7:32 AM

              Holly and Wayne are amazing!! Truth will prevail. I am so glad that
              all of you were able to spend a day together. Love all of you.
              —————————————————————————

              This story just continues to ‘write itself’… doesn’t it?

              Reply

              • By the way…

                Speaking of ‘this story keeps writing itself’…

                This former Granite Mountain Hotshot squad leader ( Doug Harwood ) who is now appearing as a ‘Board Member’ on this Pfingston/Aschcraft/Warneke “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute’ thing… appears to be ( just like other members of GM ) a ‘Youth Minister’ at a local non-denominational charismatic Christian Church there in Prescott.

                ** PRESCOTT’S ‘UNITY’ CHURCH

                Former Granite Mountain Squad Boss ‘Doug Harwood’ seems to be a member of the non-denominational ( Christian ) ‘Unity’ Church in Prescott.

                Unity of Prescot – A Positive Path for Spiritual Living
                145 S. Arizona Ave.
                Prescott, AZ 86303
                928-445-1850
                http://unityprescott.org

                He shows up in their publicly-published ‘Connections’ PDF Newsletter, especially in their January and June 2015 publication(s).

                As of June, 2015, this newsletter reports Doug Harwood ( and his wife Jessica ) as being YOUTH MINISTERS for this ‘Unity’ Church.

                This ‘Unity’ deal is one of those ‘home grown’ Christianity things, also known as “non-denominational, charismatic churches”.

                Some call them ‘Butler’ denominations… since they seem to usually use the all-steel ‘Butler Buildings’ when they get around to building their own church(es).

                This one is run by someone who was raised in the Catholic flavor, then switched to the Episcopalian flavor, then decided she wanted to run her OWN ‘flavor’.

                Reply

              • Bingo, I have always very strongly felt there should not be different sets of rules for different people, which is why I always had such a problem with management.

                There was the way they were supposed to do it and the manual said they should right up until they didn’t want to do it that way and they did any fucking thing they wanted to do.

                Which is exactly what the Radical Christian Fundamentalist Coalition has been doing with the blessing and the support of the Dark Lord of Arizona State Trust Lands.

                Reply

  92. Joy is unhappy with me. I don’t believe however, that I have hurt Joy in any way, nor do I believe that I will hurt her by publishing the CD from her hearing with the Kangaroo Court in Everybody’s Home Town. In fact, I believe that I will help Joy by shining the light on what has happened to her. Extremists and people who play fast and loose with the system are more successful when they work in the shadows.

    Nothing about what happened to Joy makes any logical sense. And as you probably know by now, I spent more than 30 years working in resource land management with about 25 years working in law enforcement as a uniformed deputy sheriff for Coconino County, as the Forest (Chief) Law Enforcement Officer for the Santa Fe National Forest and as a supervisory criminal investigator (Senior Special Agent) for the BLM. In all of those capacities, I worked with all aspects of the legal system including prosecuting attorneys, defense attorneys, judges and the court systems at the local, state and federal levels.

    Furthermore, I believe radical Christian Fundamentalism played a major role in the culture of the GMIHC and in most, if not all of their daily decisions which included those made on the Yarnell Hill Fire. The email that I posted here on this thread from Mrs. Pfingston proves that theory. The email from Joy back to them only proves that Joy is an honest, open, friendly, helpful, and most of all, an inclusive person. Being an inclusive person is what resulted in Joy being banned from what she enjoys the most…hiking in the God forsaken high desert around Yarnell that includes Arizona State Trust Lands. And just to be clear…I love the desert, especially the Sonoran Desert. The land around Yarnell is without a doubt…God forsaken country.

    In addition, as “that guy”, I also made public Eric Marsh’s sordid history with drug and alcohol abuse on the fire line as a supervisor with a hotshot crew which should have precluded him from ever holding a position of responsibility on a hotshot crew again. Furthermore, this work history made Marsh susceptible to “blackmail” in many forms from Darrell Willis and possibly others. There are some things in life you don’t get do-over’s on, and that is one of them.

    Now…lots of people have contacted me and have provided me with details pertaining to the GMIHC and they have requested to remain anonymous and I have religiously respected their anonymity and I will continue to do so. But Joy did not, and besides, I only published the emails from the Pfingstons, except for Joy’s reply to Mr. Pfingston, which once again, only revealed that Joy is a good person who was trying to do the right thing by the Pfingstons and be inclusive, which was her downfall.

    Some things are just too important in helping us understand why the GMIHC died for me to keep to myself. I checked the number of page viewers on this blog early last year and it was around 30,000 a day. I have checked it recently a couple of times and we are down to about 1200 or so per day. I don’t how many of those are “unique” page viewers and how many of them are readers who may check the site 2 or 3 times a day to see if there is something new. JD probably does through his website statistical tracker, but in any case I think we are down to the hard core readers who really care about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    These readers almost certainly include some of those who loved the GMIHC and wildland firefighters. And so, I want to make one thing perfectly clear from my perspective, which I have stated many times before, but it has been awhile since I have done so. Since you have been following this blog, or thread or experiment in social media, you have read references to many disaster fires that resulted in wildland firefighter fatalities. The Loop, the Battlement Creek, the Mann Gulch, the South Canyon, the Rattlesnake, the Thirtymile, the Esperanza and now the Twisp along with several others. All of these wildfires and so many more were deadly tragedies, and to some extent simply the cost of doing business in an inherently dangerous job. In fact, I believe that all wildfires with fatalities before and since the Yarnell Hill Fire fit statistically within firmly established and well known parameters.

    The mainstream media with their talking heads, politicians, civic leaders, the SAIT, the agencies involved, and many other people have tried to portray, and very successfully I might add, the Yarnell Hill Fire as being just one more disaster fire. A wildfire that although it was certainly tragic, it was just like all other disaster wildfires that came before it and can be explained away as “sometimes bad things happen to good people” and therefore, it was understandable and to some extent…acceptable. Let’s bury the dead, grieve for them, build a memorial to them and move on to the next one. This is all a big lie.

    The Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew was not the result of just one more disaster fire that can be explained using any of the standard templates. Please let me make one thing perfectly clear…the Yarnell Hill Fire was off the fucking charts. All of them.

    Reply

    • If Joy is unhappy with you, then I am sorry she feels that way.

      While I am only one person, engaged in speaking for just myself … still, I would like you to know that I am someone who hopes there really is nothing that will stop you from “running that lead down.”

      Reply

    • Thank you, Gary, and I hope Joy gets over being mad at you.

      She may have just misunderstood some things you said. You kind of came down on her hard and she may have reacted to that.

      Sometimes you and I have locked horns, also, and even so, I have realized we are basically on the same page. Even tho I tend to be “nicer,” unless I’m on a rant and I’m not “nice,” and you tend to be more jack-hammerish.

      I have to say, when I first started writing about Paul Musser being in on implementing the ‘Hail Mary Plan,” I was both jaw-dropped and a little bit scared. I was like, “I could get absolutely creamed for this!!” And I expected to be. But that’s what I was seeing, and that’s why I said to the world, “Please prove me wrong on this!!”

      And nobody has. Nobody has been able or willing to provide me with one fact that proves me wrong on my revelation that Paul Musser was involved in a fatally dangerous Last Ditch Last Minute Hail Mary Plan to put in a dozer line above Glen Isla, hopefully burned out by the Granite Mountain Hotshots, possibly (ala WTKTT) envisioned in the first place by Eric Marsh, and seconded by Gary Cordes, that got the Granite Mountain Hotshots burned over alive, and, then, covered up by the SAIT, sealed in an envelope and stashed away in a very large file cabinet, along with a bunch of other things, cough cough.

      And repetitively writing that, I have to say, has almost scared the sh*t out of me, and I really don’t know why. So having experienced that, I really appreciate your willingness and commitment to stay here and say, in you jack-hammerish way, exactly what you see going on in all of this.

      There are lives on the line. There are people in the balance.

      What you and WTKTT have been doing is really great and really in support of Joy. She has gotten really screwed and you are trying to figure that out and fight back against it. I hope Joy is, after settling down a bit, able to understand that. She’s smart, and I think she will.

      There is absolutely no reason why she should be experiencing the shackles she is experiencing, except for the personal irritations of certain members of the GMIHC families who are exercising more influence than they should be legally able to influence over the public and the rights of the public.

      I think Joy will get this. And we’ll all get together eventually in Yarnell, or wherever, and hug and talk and tear up and and talk some more and connect in a more personal way.

      It’s too bad the consequences of all the with-held knowledge and evidence are so divisive. We are fighting with each other over scraps of things that should have long ago been released to the public. Regardless of that stupid law Maria Cantwell short-sightedly got passed.

      I’m really supportive of going after this, and I really thank you and WTKTT for doing this. And I think, eventually, Joy will also.

      The truth will set you free, even though it will first make you REALLY uncomfortable.

      Namaste.

      Reply

      • Oh, and by the way. I never believed you ever thought Donut was a “hero.” I’m not that intellectually incapacitated. So you didn’t need to explain that to me. But the fact that you did so is all OK. I understand the limitations of this medium.

        I actually loved your description of Donut a the “hapless hero.” I understood exactly what you meant by that, and I thought it was PERFECT.

        Unfortunately, apparently, a lot of other people are casting him in that light. Poor poor pitiful hero Donut. He’s never ever been a hero in my eyes, as I’ve explained.

        But I still do believe he deserves an intervention. Even if he fits the dictionary definition of a sociopath, which you wrote, and I’ve been contemplating.

        I, as a once-upon-a-time United Church of Christ (seriously Liberal Left-Wing denomination) Youth Minister, and, later, Outreach MInister for the New Mexico Conference of Church’s Affordable Housing Project, see him as being, possibly sociopathically inclined right now, given his seeming inability to distinguish between what is right and what is wrong; but I’m also looking at that in the context of this whole cluster-f*ck of a fire, in which a WHOLE lot of people seem to not be being able to determine the difference between what is right and what is wrong.

        And so, as I see it, he is swimming in that sea, but he is OBVIOUSLY not the ONLY one.

        So I tend to have a teensy weensy bit more sympathy towards Donut than you and WTKTT have, and a WHOLE lot more anger towards all the other ADULTS IN THE ROOM who are either playing the SAME GAME he is, or are, seemingly ignoring the fact that this young man needs HELP and not more exploitation (which is what, in fact, he is getting from them).

        So that’s my take on Donut, currently. I really really really wish something would cause him to get some frickin’ HELP!!!

        Namaste.

        Reply

          • Well OK good, I am certainly happy that you are not that intellectually incapacitated, but you do know what science says about the effects of cannabis on the human brain…hee. hee.

            None of that made any science to me at all so I guess I can go back to calling him our hapless hero, which is kinder that dumb ass jerk off.

            Reply

            • What did anything I wrote have anything to do with cannabis, which I don’t use?

              What I’m saying is that Donur, the (your perfect term) hapless “hero” needs some kind of frickin’ intervention because he is, apparently, becoming addicted to what seems to be a status-filled position ( of being The One And Only Survivor Among His Heroic Dead Brothers) that is being supported and exploited by a whole lot of other people who should be acting as some kind of “Adults In The Room” but AREN’T.

              Whether or not his addiction has anything to do with cannabis has absolutely nothing to do with what I am saying, although, I have to admit, the issue of Donut’s addiction to any addictive substances might be something someone might want to be considered, all things considered.

              But that wasn’t my point. My point was, and has been since WAY BACK in January-ish of 2014, that Brendan McDonough needs, for his own mental and emotional integrity and well-being, to tell the truth of his story, and that ALL of the MANY PEOPLE who are EXPLOITING his unwillingness to do so (including Bill Gabbert whose work I have, until this episode, respected) are just as frickin’ guilty in this whole cluster-f*ck as he is.

              Does THAT make sense?? Since, apparently, what I wrote above, although it made total sense to me, didn’t make sense to you, to the point that you had to insert some kind of weird reference to cannabis into it.

              Sheesh.

              I still love you, Gary!!!!!!!

              Reply

              • So maybe what I’m trying to say to you, Gary, is that maybe you should read what other people write a bit more carefully??

                I confess that I used to get all impatient and frustrated with a bunch of the stuff Joy wrote. But, then, I’m somebody who, by virtue of my occupation and education and training and experience, has had to spend a WHOLE LOT OF TIME figuring out how to write in certain kinds of ways so that my AUDIENCE (who were also paying my salary) got my point/points.

                It’s not always that easy or natural to do. I used to write for Lowell Observatory, in order to communicate to the public what they were doing. Sort of like trying to write this stuff. It was not easy!!!

                I don’t even remotely think writing this stuff is easy. It hasn’t been easy for me, and I”ve been a professional writer.

                So I just started reading Joy’s posts out loud, as well as others, trying to humbly comprehend what they were trying to say, from inside of themselves. And what I found was Joy saying a whole lot of really important stuff.

                That’s how I’m trying to read what people are trying to write here.

                Reply

              • I didn’t say cannabis had anything to do with you. I just said that cannabis (along with alcohol) can lead to intellectually incapacitation just as it has in many of those who majored in anthropology and archaeology in college.

                In addition to being a counter drug agent, I was considered by many to be one of the leading ARPA investigators in the nation since I was the Coordinator of the interagency national ARPA Task Force when it was funded by Congress. And in this capacity, I got to know a lot of anthropologists and archeologists and I heard a lot of the stories and I have seen a lot of the photos of the digs being almost nothing but drunken drug fueled orgies where the women never wore any tops and very few (if any) other clothes.

                Plus I did grow up in Prescott about the time you were living your life at Prescott College and I know that if you were not a regular consumer of cannabis you were the only one who ever set foot on the Prescott College Campus who was not a far left wing liberal hippies which included all of (especially all of) the college professors, especially the ones who where world renowned anthropologists and archeologists.

                In addition to that fact, and having been both a long term resident of both Flagstaff and Albuquerque and having read many details about your resume and personal history which all SCREAM I am a far left wing liberal who if I don’t use cannabis on a regular basis, I am literally the only one in my circle of acquaintances who does not…the only question that anyone would have after studying your resume and background is when is the last time you used peyote?

                We are our resumes and if you don’t want anyone to crack stupid jokes about yours, I would suggest you change it because otherwise you are going to experience problems in life being painted with a broad brush that others with your background have worked so hard to earn.

                Here is my resume and background.

                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4lPaaWsib8

                Which I call 30 years in less than four minutes, or you can peruse my entire photographic resumes on my youtube channel here

                https://www.youtube.com/user/DeadEndPSA

                And if anybody looks at the videos, and comes up with the conclusion I am an asshole who had never even tried cannabis but could benefit from doing so, well…who would I be to argue with them?

                Like I said, I learned a long time ago to never ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to. But that doesn’t mean I don’t love you back.

                I used to hunt people with your background, now….I kind of like people like you. Free spirited, unencumbered by the bullshit that rules the lives of the rest of us who live inside the box. Any more questions?

                Reply

                  • Speaking of magic mushrooms, this video shows me raiding a nest of bikers who grew shrooms in ABQ to sell. I am with a bunch of my ATF buddies because so many illegal guns were involved..

                    Fucking bikers who grew this shit could be fucking dangerous people, but it all just part of the hunt. We all have to earn our highs.

                    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0GB5OZZdnCM

                    Reply

                    • And you know I’m just kidding right Marti? I am the class clown for this thread.

                      The only difference between me and that bombastic asshole Donald Trump is his money and the size of his audience.

                      Well, there are probably a few more differences as well, but those are the two big ones.

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on
                September 26, 2015 at 9:52 pm

                >> Marti said…
                >>
                >> My point was, and has been since WAY BACK
                >> in January-ish of 2014, that Brendan McDonough
                >> needs, for his own mental and emotional integrity
                >> and well-being, to tell the truth of his story, and
                >> that ALL of the MANY PEOPLE who are
                >> EXPLOITING his unwillingness to do so (including
                >> Bill Gabbert whose work I have, until this episode,
                >> respected) are just as frickin’ guilty in this whole
                >> cluster-f*ck as he is.

                Totally agree.

                I’m no therapist… but it really seems like most of the things Brendan has been ‘encouraged’ to do and participate in ( by who? ) would NOT be the things that MOST ‘licensed therapists’ would recommend.

                I still wonder of the ‘recovery group’ that Brendan was in wasn’t just that ‘Bible study’ group that Darrell Willis himself started at that Prescott Church ( and is also part of Willis’ BIO now at the “Wildline Firefighter Guardian Institute” ).

                Willis’ ‘Church’ sponsored ‘study group’ was entitled…
                “When Duty Wounds You” and it is BASED on that God-can-heal-you book entitled “The First Responders Healing Manual”.
                $17.99 ( if you order it online ).

                The exact quote ( the last paragraph of Willis’ BIO ) sitting on the “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” website is…

                ———————————————————–
                Darrell is a member of the Prescott Salvation Army Board of Directors. He currently is a Board Director for the Granite Mountain Hotshots State Memorial Park and sits on both design and site access sub-committees. Darrell is active in his local church and facilitates a class on Healing for First Responders.
                ———————————————————–

                Willis first ‘advertised’ ( publicly ) this “Healing Group” he was going to run at his Church with an ‘inivitation’ published on the local Yavapai County Firefighters Union website…

                http://www.iafflocal3066.org/index.cfm?section=1

                ———————————————————–
                YOU ARE INVITED TO THE GROUP MEETING

                WHEN DUTY WOUNDS YOU
                The First Responder Healing Manual

                WHEN: Every Tuesday at 6:30 p.m.

                WHERE: The Heights Church at 2121 Larry Caldwell Drive Prescott, AZ 86301

                The healing Manuals are provided to you free of charge by: 100 Club of Arizona

                For more information Contact: Darrell Willis (928) 925-7311
                ———————————————————–

                It stands to reason that Brendan McDonough was ‘attending’ these ‘healing’ sessions being held by Willis… but there’s been no actual confirmation of that.

                I wonder if all this is going to be mentioned in Bredan’s BOOK, if/when it ever comes out.

                The ‘story’ of what has gone on with Brendan… and his reasons for withholding information from investigators is now as much a part of the ‘story’ of this tragedy ( and its aftermath ) as anything else is.

                Reply

                • By the way… the ‘100 Clubs’ that support Firefighters are just 501(C) non-profits… but here is THIS particular ‘100 Club’ offering to PAY for a book that offers a ‘Religion based PTSD Healing Path” for Firefighters…. and everyone in this particular ‘100 Club’ seems to be OK with that.

                  Reply

  93. Joy said,

    “Remember this when writing Gary…what if you went to a blog and you saw someone writing like you do on IM about your wife or even you and its not right…
    what would you think
    or feel or do when you are told to not say a thing at all…”

    Joy – You talk in riddles. Sometimes trying to make sense of what you say is like trying to nail Jello to the wall. I’m glad you brought up my dear wife, who I am continually telling, “if you do X you are going to possibly experience Y” For example, “if you go to a deserted park late at night to walk your dog, we may find you dead from blunt force trauma and with indicators of sexual assault.”

    Donut is going to have a very hard time outliving the consequences of his criminal activity and now his morally bankrupt behavior. It is very difficult to make a living by being a professional sad sack and victim. He will find that out soon enough. There are some things in life I know about, guns and knives are two of them.

    The knife company he is a spokesperson for makes low end junk knives and the blue shirts are going to get tired of listening to his bullshit sooner rather than later. I have a hard time believing he is able to walk down the streets of Prescott without people throwing beer bottles at him and I don’t think you could find a wildland firefighter to walk across the street to piss on him if he were on fire. So…

    I have experienced negative consequences for my participation in this blog that I have already mentioned. I lost my book editor, who I have not yet been able to replace, I lost my Jeep mechanics because they were a small family run business of Christian Fundamentalists who were tight with Darrell Wills and many on the GMIHC and I have lost friends within the wildland firefighting community and probably my emeritus status as well.

    I am not going to test that theory, because I learned a long time ago to never ask the question I don’t want to know the answer to, especially to a bunch of fellows like I described I met late at night in that run down dimly lit Taqueria. I don’t really need the Jeep mechanics anymore because I am now an ATVer and I live to far to go there to get them fixed anyway. But I still miss my book editor. In other words, my actions and words have had consequences.

    So do yours. You complained about your problem and then you complained about your problem, and then you complained about your problem, and then you complained about your problem and then you did it some more. And so one day I woke up and said to myself, “self, this situation with Joy and the Bible Thumpers and the Dark Lord of the Arizona State Trust Lands may be relevant to your investigation.”

    Now that I have identified your situation as possibly being relevant to my investigation, nothing is going to stop me from running that lead down. Not my friendship with you or my respect for what you have contributed to this thread and the overall situation to better understand why the GMIHC died.

    I sometimes give people fair warning about me, not often, but sometimes…as I have done on this blog several times. I am not a nice person. I am not looking to add to my Christmas card list. My nickname when I was working was the “Jackhammer” and it was not said in a nice way, as in, “why don’t you just let it go, you are like a fucking jackhammer.”

    The only thing that surprises me…is when people are surprised when I turn out not to be a nice person. If there is something between me and the answers I am looking for, I will go through it, over it, around it, or blow the fucking thing up. I didn’t go from being the second to last shovel on Squad 2 (which was the least important position on the entire crew, to where I was when I retired by giving up…ever). Any questions?

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing, I did get beat a lot, and beaten down often. In fact, by the time I got done, I felt like I had been run through a meat grinder. But losing is different than quitting. Losing is OK…quitting is not.

      Reply

  94. Reply to Marti Reed post on September 24, 2015 at 7:29 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Relying on Jesus will not protect you from the consequences of hiking down
    >> into a bowl full of potentially explosive manzanita with a wildfire heading
    >> directly at it from a quarter of a mile away because your temporary Crew
    >> Supervisor agrees (however unwillingly) to participate in a Hail Mary Last Ditch
    >> plan concocted by a combination of your normal Crew Supervisor who is
    >> your acting Division Supervisor and a Structure Protection Group Supervisor
    >> and an Operations Supervisor.

    Nor will he help you with your plans when ( as Brendan has now informed us ) you are ALREADY hiking ahead and ‘scouting’ out the travel path to fulfill that ‘Hail Mary” plan… but you do not even TELL your direct up-level Operations Supervisor ( Todd Abel ) that is exactly what you are doing when he talks to you on the radio at 3:50 PM and TELLS ( Orders ) you to just “Hunker and be safe”.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Nothing Jesus may have said about “The Truth Shall Set Your Free” will ever
    >> trump the physics of the above composition.
    >>
    >> My brother learned that the hard way.
    >>
    >> Faith in Jesus needs to be excluded from decision-making on a wildfire.
    >> Along with personal emotional feelings about houses.
    >>
    >> So. Be. It.
    >>
    >> Why do I feel so sad?

    AZCENTRAL
    Yarnell Hill Fire fallen remembered: John Percin Jr.
    Published: Saturday, July 6, 2013 – 8:15 PM
    http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130702john-percin-jr.html

    ————————————————————————
    John Percin Jr. started his last day with a prayer.

    “Lord, watch over us as we go into battle,” he posted on his
    Facebook page a little after 6 a.m. Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    It would be his last post.
    ————————————————————————

    John Percin Jr. was the one who replaced former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch, who left GM in the middle of that 2013 fire season for personal reasons, just after the Thompson Ridge Fire.

    Brandon Bunch, himself, is the one who only lists 1 ‘Favorite Book’ on
    his own PUBLIC Facebook page.

    “The Bible”.

    Maybe John Percin Jr. should have had a ‘Postscript’ for his ‘prayer’ that morning…

    ————————————————————————————-
    “Oh… and by the way, Lord… if it’s not too much trouble… could you also
    make sure that the people we are going to work for today who are going
    to give us a “predetermined Safety Zone” over TWO MILES away from
    where they will have us working also bother to give us some fucking MAPS?
    Thanks in advance.
    ————————————————————————————-

    Reply

      • Oh and also I might add, as an Ordained Minister in the United Church of Christ with a Master’s Degree in Divinity……

        Prayers and Jesus and such aren’t going to protect you when NOBODY is paying any ATTENTION to the WEATHER FORECASTS.

        (And I have to say, probably even the more important degree I hold, in terms of my thinking, is a BA in Anthropology/Southwest Archaeology from Prescott College, from in the days when some of the most highly esteemed Anthropologists in the world were teaching there).

        Every time I officiated at/planned an Outdoor Wedding near Flagstaff (which I did A LOT of) I ALWAYS made sure the couple had a Bad Weather Plan B all planned out. Every time. Always.

        Hello???

        Jesus and prayers are not going to save you from what the weather is doing.

        I prayed for my dad when he was dying. That did not save him. I prayed for my mom when she was dying. That did not save her.

        I lit candles to my angels when my daughter was driving home from Eugene, Oregon, after she had graduated summa cum laude from the University of Oregon in 2009, on the day MIchael Jackson died. She had an accident near Big Sur while trying to avoid a deer who walked in front of her car.

        She screamed her car over into a ditch and came a quarter of an inch from slamming into a tree on the passenger side, and she had a passenger sitting there on that passenger side.

        She called me in the middle of the night, as I was sitting at my computer editing photos, and wondering if I should go to bed but not going to bed for some odd reason. She was in tears.

        They had walked from the car and, thankfully, found a small resort near Big Sur, and knocked on the door. They were, thankfully, welcomed there.

        Her windshield had been shattered, and a few dents in her car, and that was thankfully, and maybe even miraculously, the worst that had happened. She still drives that car. It is named “Puck.”

        Do I credit the angels I sense all around me (including from my understanding of Native American thinking) for having left Michael Jackson behind to gather near my daughter and her passenger to protectthem? Sometimes I do, I have to admit. I do sometimes have that weird kind of thinking.

        But I would never ever ever ever RELY on that.

        I’m also the daughter of science. I am 50% right brained and 50% left brained. I am an artist and I am a scientist. I was a feminist environmentalist theologian who also wrote for Lowell Observatory regarding cosmological evolution and spectroscopic imaging. I was raised by a 100% left-brained world-reknowned meteorologist who was the World’s Number One Expert on the Behavior of Shock Waves in the Atmosphere.

        Who, on the day of his grand-daughter’s birthday in 2007 (the year in which he died), ran around the corner and pounded on my door to say to me, “Marti, you’ve GOT TO come out and photograph that cloud over the Sandias!!!”

        And so I did and that cloud was shaped exactly like what everybody thinks a UFO looks like. Because my dad was, actually, quite interested in UFO’s, as he would tell me on some of the longer drives we sometimes did through New Mexico.

        This whole thing has been a dance all of my life. Faith and Reality. Art and Science. Spirit and Matter.

        But, as a frickin Girl Scout Leader, I would never ever ever ever walk a Troop of Girl Scouts down into that bowl of Manzanita with a wildfire headed towards it.

        And, as a guide on backpacking trips in the Grand Canyon, I would never ever ever ever ever lead a group of people out onto the edge of a ledge like my brother did in the Jemez when he was killed because of doing so. Never. Ever.

        I don’t know why he did it, but I didn’t need to know that why. I just learned from his fatal mistake not to do it.

        Thus the 10 and 18.

        Angels may be there. But don’t count on them. Physics still rule the Universe.

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • The concept at play here ( and being discussed ) is really quite simple… and even anthropology has a name for it.

          It’s called “Abdication of Responsibility”.

          ‘Abdication’ meaning ( in this context ) ” to give up or transfer”.

          To fire a gun into the air anywhere near a populated area, and then do a ‘Tim Tebow’ and take a knee and make a request to your “invisible friends” that no harm comes because of it does NOT relieve you of any responsibility for your actions.

          The LAW itself has its own name for such actions.

          It’s called “depraved indifference”.

          That’s what the LAW defines as doing things ( or even FAILING to do things ) that you know full well *might* result in serious injury or death… but you still do your own ” Fuck it… let’s go for it” in your own head and you go ahead anyway.

          Pray all you want that everything will still turn out OK… the LAW is not going to be impressed if people get hurt or die because of your “depraved indifference”.

          Reply

          • Exactly.

            And thank you, Baltimore Police Department, for teaching me what Depraved Indifference looks like, earlier this year.

            Reply

            • It’s also very likely this very real and very dangerous concept of “depraved indifference” is going to turn out being one of the primary reasons for the horrible deaths in Twisp, as well.

              Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller knew immediately upon reaching that scene that ALL of the residents of Woods Canyon Road needed to be evacuated as fast as possible. He went up there himself to do just that ( as early as 1:00 PM ) and has been quoted by as resident as yelling ( as he was pounding on her door )… “You have to get OUT of here RIGHT NOW or you are GOING TO DIE!”.

              Chief Waller also then appears to be the one who issued the clear directive ” DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” to ALL of the first responders over the radio.

              Chief Waller is also the one who seems to be captured in a radio call telling Dispatchers…”We can’t get resources up Woods Canyon Road. It’s too dangerous. There are no Safety Zones up there”.

              Yet… despite ALL of that… we end with any number of Engines and men up that road and now ABOVE the fire… and 3 of them end up dying one of the most horrible deaths anyone can imagine.

              Somewhere in this ‘other’ story I believe we are going to encounter the same kind of “depraved indifference” that led to those other horrible deaths in Yarnell.

              Reply

  95. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE
    **
    ** THE ‘ELDERLY MAN’ WHO SEEMED TO BE REFUSING TO LEAVE HIS HOUSE
    ** ON AUGUST 19, 2015 APPEARS TO BE A MAN NAMED ‘KENNETH DUNCAN’.

    Two important points here right off the bat…

    1) This information comes from a PUBLIC, ON-CAMERA interview that Mr. Kenneth Duncan himself agreed to for a reporter named Tom Yazwinski of Q13 FOX NEWS, which covers the Seattle/Tacoma, Washington viewer area.

    2) The reports that came over the scanner radio about an “ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE” all took place AFTER the first announcement of an ‘ENTRAPMENT ON WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

    There was no scanner radio traffic about anyone ‘refusing to leave’ their home or property PRIOR to any ENTRAPMENT radio traffic

    As you will see below… Mr. Kenneth Duncan appears to have been that ‘elderly man refusing to leave’, and some effort WAS made to try to protect his house and property… but his house and property were NOT up on ‘Woods Canyon Road’ at all. He ‘actually’ just owns the property there on the north side of the ‘Twisp River Drive’ just a few hundred yards EAST of where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    ** THE ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’…

    Because of both radio scanner traffic captured in the Methow Valley ‘Facebook thread’ AND the actual reports from the ‘Associated Press’ about Dispatch radio traffic obtained via an FOIA about an “ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE”… there has been a rumor floating around that maybe this is why the FFs who ended up dead went up ‘Woods Canyon Road’.

    That does NOT appear to be the case. Read on.

    First off… here is a ‘cut’ from that original Methow Valley ‘Facebook’ thread where people listening to their own radio scanners were typing into the thread ( VERBATIM? ) what they were hearing over the radio the afternoon of August 19, 2015.

    NOTE: The convention being used on this Facebook thread was that when someone was typing in VERBATIM what they were hearing over the scanner radio… they would type that in using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    |02:56|002| ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
    |02:56|002| 6 MILES UP BURN VICTIM AERO METHOW CALLED
    |02:58|002| CLOSING ELBOW COLUEE AT TWISP RIVER ROAD. GOING TO JUMP THAT SECTION
    |02:58|002| FIRE MOVING EAST NORTH EAST DIRECTION OVER ELBOW COULEE.
    |02:59|002| ONE ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Notice that the FIRST reports about an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ were not appearing on the radio until 3 minutes AFTER the first reports about an ENTRAPMENT.

    Now here is what the ‘Associated Press’ published after obtaining some actual Okanogan County Dispatch records via a ‘Freedom Of Information’ ( FOI ) request…

    ——————————————————————————————————-
    2:56 p.m. — A local fire district calls for an ambulance for a burn victim, about 6 miles up the road.
    2:57 p.m. — Evacuations continue, an elderly resident refuses to leave his home, and a deputy warns dispatchers that the fire may jump over Twisp River Road, which in calmer conditions could serve as a natural firebreak.
    ——————————————————————————————————-

    Notice that the actual Okanogan County ‘Dispatch Notes’ match ( almost exactly ) the ENTRIES and the TIMES in the Facebook thread postings.

    So even the Associated Press ‘Dispatch Notes’ establish that the information about an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ didn’t appear until AFTER there had already been radio notifications about a ‘burn victim’ up on Woods Canyon Road.

    That ‘burn victim’ would turn out to be Daniel Lyon ( 25 years old ), who was sitting in the left-rear seat of Engine 642 ( from the Okanogan/Wenatchee National Forest ) that went off the shoulder of Woods Canyon Road… and he was found ‘wandering around’ OUTSIDE ( but still near ) the engine after it was burned over.

    So the TIMING here has never supported any ‘rumor’ that this ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ was a situation that developed BEFORE any decision was made to send those men up onto ‘Woods Canyon Road’ into a position where they were ABOVE the fire with no valid ‘Safety Zones’ up there on Woods Canyon Road.

    That being said…

    It looks like there really WAS an ‘ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE’ after the wind changed and the full evacuation of everyone EAST of ‘Woods Canyon Road’ had been ordered… and there WAS ( then ) some major effort made by a group of Firefighters to try and protect his house there on the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    That man appears to have been Mr. Kenneth Duncan.

    ** THE ON-CAMERA INTERVIEW WITH KENNETH DUNCAN

    Just 48 hours after the Twisp / ‘Woods Canyon Road’ fatalities took place, Q13 FOX NEWS out of Seattle / Tacoma sent their reporter Tom Yazwinski to the site of the incident to see what he could find out.

    He was, apparently, not allowed to go up ‘Woods Canyon Road’ at all that day, so he started interviewing other people as close as possible to that point where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    That’s when he found Mr. Kenneth Duncan, and got him to do an ON-CAMERA interview.

    He is an ELDERLY MAN who lives right there on the ‘Twisp River Road’ just a few hundred yards EAST of where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with it. He told the story about how hard Firefighters fought to save his house that day and how he didn’t (quote) “Have enough gratitude”. His house appears in the video… still standing… but with the vinyl siding partially melted.

    The PRINT article that appeared for this story makes absolutely NO MENTION of this ON-CAMERA interview with Mr. Kenneth Duncan. You can only hear what he said if you actually watch Tom Yazwinski’s ‘Field report’ video that accompanies the article.

    That original Q13 FOX NEWS story ( along with Tom Yazwinski’s on-camera interview with Kenneth Duncan ) is here…

    Q13 FOX NEWS
    Article Title: New details emerge about incident in
    which 3 firefighters died, 4 were injured
    Posted 9:06 AM, August 21, 2015, by Associated Press and Tom Yazwinski
    Updated at 09:57pm, August 21, 2015
    http://q13fox.com/2015/08/21/evacuation-levels-in-twisp-tonasket-reduced-to-level-2-fires-still-rage/

    Again… there is nothing in the print copy about Mr. Kenneth Duncan… but the video at the top of the page with the video title…

    “Latest on investigation into firefighters’ deaths in Wash.”

    …has clips in it from his on-camera interview with Tom Yazwinski.

    A full TRANSCRIPT of this video interview with Kenneth Duncan will be posted
    as a ‘Reply’ to this message.

    ( Continued next ‘Reply’ )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      ** TRANSCRIPT OF THE VIDEO THAT ACCOMPANIES
      ** THE Q13 FOX NEWS ARTICLE

      Since the interview with Kenneth Duncan ONLY appears in the VIDEO… here is a complete transcript of that VIDEO, beginning with even the ‘lead-in’ part from Q13 Studio News anchors: Matt Lorch and Jamie Tompkins…

      From the VIDEO published August 21, just 48 hours after the incident…
      ————————————————————————————
      +0:00
      Matt Lorch: Firefighters are now coming in from around the world to battle one of the worst fires in this state’s history. One of the biggest battles is in Okanogan County right now, where the Sheriff says it is so chaotic, he has no idea how many homes have been lost.

      Jamie Tompkins: And tonight we’re learning more about the fire that killed three heroic firefighters near Twisp. Authorities say three men tried to escape as the fire closed in on them, but the truck they were riding in went off a steep embankment and crashed.

      +0:19
      ( Video now seems to show the embankment itself, complete with some
      rocks showing obvious orange/red retardant residue ).

      Tom Yazwinski visited the crash scene today and has the very latest on the investigation.

      ( Video cuts to reporter Tom Yazwinski on-scene in Twisp )…

      +0:32
      Tom Yazwinski: The Okanogan County Sheriff says the death nvestigation into these firefighters will likely take several days. Investigators and neighbors all agree that the wind suddenly shifted and this deadly fire closed in fast.

      +0:45
      Sheriff Frank Rogers: Ya know… that… danger’s always there. It’s just… you hope it never happens… and when it does… it’s just… it’s tough.

      +0:51
      Tom Yazwinski: Investigators can’t release too many details about the deaths of three fearless firefighters killed this week. Sheriff Rogers said smoke and fire filled the area.

      +1:01
      Sheriff Frank Rogers: It… It’s just… I don’t know how you can describe it. It’s just intense.

      +1:05
      Tom Yazwinski: Suddenly, erratic winds shifted and flames surged towards firefighters.Tom Zbyszewski, Andrew Zajac and Richard Wheeler died after their truck went off the road and down a steep embankment on Woods Canyon Road. Then the fire overtook that truck.

      +1:07
      ( More video footage of the embankment and retardant-soaked rocks ).

      +1:22
      Tom Yazwinski: A witness says another truck barely made it out through the flames to safety.

      ( Video cuts to close-up interview with Woods Canyon Road resident Ken Duncan ).
      ( Video subtitle underneath this interview says: “Ken Duncan – Home saved by firefighters” ).

      +1:26
      Ken Duncan: When that fire changed directions it come fast and hot… and I think they just got trapped.

      ( Video now shows burned outbuildings on Ken Duncan’s property ).

      Tom Yazwinski: Ken Duncan lives right next to the scene. He witnessed the shifting winds sending flames towards his home, but firefighters stayed to fight the same blaze back that killed their partners.

      Duncan took these pictures of the scene.

      ( Two photographs are shown of the actual fireline the afternoon of August 19, 2015 ).

      The heat so intense it melted the siding of his home and burned several outbuildings.

      ( Video footage of the melted siding on Ken Duncan’s house appears ).

      Ken Duncan: I just don’t have enough gratitude. ( He chokes up for a moment ).
      It’s just… uh… they do a magnificent job.

      The Department of Natural Resources and U.S. Forest Service Teams combed through the scorched earth at the scene today, looking for answers.

      ( Video footage of investigators at the scene doing exactly that ).

      Investigators hope anyone who saw what happened will call with information.

      ( Video footage of the sign placed at the point where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road which tells peoplel to call the U.S. Forest Service if they have any information about what STARTED the fire ).

      Until they know exactly what DID take place, there is little else for investigators to say.

      ( Video shows Sheriff Rogers again ).

      Sheriff Rogers: I feel sorry for the families. Tough stuff. It really is.

      Tom Yazwinski: Ken (Duncan) and his wife are so thankful that their property was saved… but they would’ve rather have seen it burn if it meant those firefighters had survived.

      In Okanogan County… Tom Yazwinski, Q13 FOX News.
      ————————————————————————————–
      END OF VIDEO TRANSCRIPT

      As it turns out… Kenneth Duncan’s property was NOT actually ‘up there’ on Woods Canyon Road.

      Kenneth ( and Paula ) Duncan’s property is right there on Twisp River Road itself, just BEFORE you actually reach the intersection where Woods Canyon road meets the Twisp River Road.

      From the PUBLIC Okanogan County Tax Assesors online system at…

      http://okanoganwa.mapsifter.com/default.aspx

      Okangoan County Parcel Number: 3321080051
      Owner: Duncan, Kenneth R. and Paula
      Situs: 570 Twisp River Road.

      There is a photo of Kenneth and Paula Duncan’s house attached to that public tax assesor’s record and it matches the house seen in the video that had the ‘melted siding’.

      The exact GPS coordinates for the ‘center’ of Kenneth Duncan’s house would be…

      48.381030, -120.240608

      If you cut-and-paste the line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of Google Maps and hit ENTER, a map will appear with a ‘marker’ sitting right on the center of the roof of Kenneth Duncan’s house there on Twisp River Road.

      So with regards this THIS statement from reporter Tom Yazwinski…

      ——————————————————————————————–
      Tom Yazwinski: Ken (Duncan) and his wife are so thankful that their
      property was saved… but they would’ve rather have seen it burn
      if it meant those firefighters had survived.
      ——————————————————————————————–

      …there is NO REASON to believe that whoever the FFs were that made that effort to save Duncan’s property there on ‘Twisp River Road’ were, in any way, the same men who went up Woods Canyon Road ( 3 of whom died ).

      This VIDEO interview was only 48 hours after the incident and details were still emerging. Kenneth Duncan may have been THINKING that the same FFs who made this effort to save his house somehow ended up being the ones to go up Woods Canyon Road… but he, himself, could not have been fully aware of the TIMING at that point and it does NOT appear to be the case.

      It looks much more likely that this effort to save his house right there off the ‘Twisp River Road’ only came AFTER the WIND CHANGE and the immediate order to evacuate to the EAST of ‘Woods Canyon Road’… and only AFTER there had already been reports of a ‘burn victim’ ( Daniel Lyon ) wandering around’ near that already-crashed Engine 642 up on Woods Canyon Road.

      Reply

  96. And if anybody is wondering if I am worried about being sued by former MCA executives David Baumgarten, Roger Vorce and Harvey Litwin, who founded APA (Agency for the Performing Arts), I only have one thing to say, FUCK David Baumgarten, Roger Vorce and Harvey Litwin, who founded APA (Agency for the Performing Arts),”

    Reply

    • So, now we see that it is Brendan McDonough who has entered into a marriage with “Greed” … and just like Ms. Bonnie Raitt sings about, this one truly IS a “marriage made in Hollywood. “

      Reply

      • Yes, I seriously doubt if dumb ass jerk off cares whether he has my endorsement and support or not, but he would have had it had he simply have chosen to do the right thing from day one But he didn’t…and he still hasn’t. I understand that he made a series of bad choices early in life that left he with few options in the real world for many opportunities. And I imagine that at this point in his life he would much rather say, “I miss my brothers” for a living rather than “do you want fries with that.”

        I don’t believe those are his only two choices however, but the others will require a lot of hard work and several years to accomplish and he strikes me as a young man who still can’t tell, or refuses to tell, right from wrong. As I said way back at the very beginning, I thought he should have stayed with the PFD and they would have been forced through public opinion to do the right thing by him, even if their brotherly love for him wasn’t enough of a reason to help him turn his life around. And of course there has always been my favorite, go to Yavapai College and learn a good trade.

        After all, we currently have three Navy SEALS who have claimed to be The One who send Osama Bin Laden to hell. And they were part of the “Silent Service” would very much like to get that rep back.The two that have gone public and the third one who is backed by most people except for 60 Minutes, who backed the first one and Fox News who seemed to embrace the second “shoot and tell” SEAL.

        I am going with the SEAL the former Silent Service is backing, the one who says he will never identify himself publicly. That way, every SEAL can be The One in a grateful nations eyes, which is how it really is, they all gave Bin Laden his just reward along with thousands of others who contributed in direct and meaningful ways.

        So…all of that being said, I think it is perfectly understandable that dumb ass jerk off wants to ride the “I miss my brothers gravy train” for as long as the blue shirts want to listen to him, but he could and should, have told the truth in a forthright, straightforward and honest manner when he was first asked to help before he got onboard.

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing Marti. It seems as though there are a few people who like “Why does my heart feel so bad” almost as much as you and I do. So I posed the lyrics on the webpage this afternoon just in case you can’t make out exactly what Laura Dawn is singing.

          Ms. Dawn is singing, “He’ll open doors”, which of course is a very simply message, but one that I feel is quite poignant and meaningful, especially under the circumstances.

          http://ourfiregods.com/yarnellhillfire.html

          Reply

          • Well…nothing is ever as easy as it should be but…2 out of 3 sites think Ms. Dawn is saying “These open doors.” So I changed it.

            Reply

  97. Marti Reed said

    September 22, 2015 at 9:42 pm

    And also, I just have to say, that that video you once created and .posted on YouTube, with the song that said something like “Why do I feel so bad,” that you posted and linked downstream recently but apparently isn’t there anymore, at your website at this moment, as your “memorial” to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, was really totally one of my number one top favorites among ALL of the memorials to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    Gary Olson said

    September 23, 2015 at 7:11 pm

    I just put it up (“Why do I feel so bad,” ) because that is how I was feeling that night, but that song really sums up for me how I feel about what happened. I think I will build a page dedicated to collecting misc. stuff for the YH fire on and I will put that video back up.

    And yes, it is the same song I used with my tribute to GMIHC but I can’t watch it anymore because I can’t stand to see Donut’s face in it. I am going to have to redo it now (at some point) and remove all photos of that dumb ass jerk off.

    Reply

    • I’m with Sonny as far as Donut goes, but I don’t think Sonny takes it far enough. At this point, even looking at that dumb ass jerk offs face me feel nauseous. There is only one word that really describes Donut for me.

      SOCIOPATH!

      And if it has been awhile since you have looked carefully at the full meaning of that word, you could probably benefit from doing so now. In fact, one of the on-line dictionaries I went to, now has an actual photo of Donut on their site and a description of his activities to illustrate exactly what that word means in the English language.

      I can understand how all of the blue shirts like to gather together and listen to that dumb ass jerk off, most of them are pretty clueless when it comes to what it means to be a wildland firefighter anyway…obviously.

      I think I will really lose it if WTKTT ever posts something about that dumb ass jerk off being ask to speak to a group of wildland firefighters. At that point, my world will be officially off its axis and spinning out of control.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 23, 2015 at 7:47 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I think I will really lose it if WTKTT ever posts something about
        >> that dumb ass jerk off being ask to speak to a group of wildland
        >> firefighters. At that point, my world will be officially off its axis
        >> and spinning out of control.

        I keep waiting for some sign of a ‘transcript’ or even a ‘video’ to appear that would give some indication what Brendan McDonough is even SAYING at these ‘speaking engagements’… but so far… nothing.

        Brendan keeps posting these ‘pseudo press releases’ about his engagements on his own Facebook page ( where he still lists his occupation as ‘Public Figure’. )… but even there all you will see following the engagements are little one-liners like “Thanks for comin’!” or “God be with ya!” or “We are with ya, brotha!”.

        Not even any indication in any comment what it was he even talked about.

        Just a lot of what have become known now as ‘Facebook FARTS”.

        I doubt Brendan is making ANY mention of the Wildland Firefighting industry at all in these ‘speeches’. It’s probably all just still “I miss my Brothers” stuff.

        If that’s what the people paying for him to speak want to hear… then I guess they aren’t being disappointed.

        Something tells me there are also NEVER any ‘questions from the audience’ at these speaking engagements. Brendan just talks… people just applaud… and he just walks off the stage.

        Cha-Ching.

        Reply

    • Marti – OK… I built a Yarnell Hill Fire page to start collecting stuff and I put our favorite video back up that defines how we (you and I) feel about the GMIHC. Like I said, I can’t load my original tribute video until I delete that dumb ass jerk off out of it. But this one is pretty good, if you can imagine Laura Dawn is thinking about the GMIHC while she is singing, which I can.

      http://ourfiregods.com/yarnellhillfire.html

      Reply

    • Gotcha! Totally understand.

      But I still want the video back. Without Donut is fine. Because it said what I feel. Really really really really really really just totally frickin sad. Because this was so totally frickin completely unneccessary.

      On the other hand, if this total clusterf*ck hadn’t happened, I wouldn’t have “met” you and WTKTT and TTWARE and Bob Powers and Joy and Sonny and Sitta and RTS and Calvin and SR and JD and various others who have taught me SO MUCH — so I guess there’s that

      The Truth will make you conscious and, thus free, but, first. The Truth will make you dissapointed and disoriented and jumbled and then crazy and angry and upset and then inquisitive and then unwilling to accept easy bullsh*t from the Powers That Be. Thus said the Brother Jesus, according to a paraphrasing by me (who has a Master’s Degree in Divinity).

      Reply

      • On the other hand, relying on Jesus will not protect you from the consequences of hiking down into a bowl full of potentially explosive manzanita with a wildfire heading directly at it from a quarter of a mile away because your temporary Crew Supervisor agrees (however unwillingly) to participate in a Hail Mary Last Ditch plan concocted by a combination of your normal Crew Supervisor who is your acting Division Supervisor and a Structure Protection Group Supervisor and an Operations Supervisor.

        Nothing Jesus may have said about “The Truth Shall Set Your Free” will ever trump the physics of the above composition. My brother learned that the hard way.

        Faith in Jesus needs to be excluded from decision-making on a wildfire. Along with personal emotional feelings about houses.

        So. Be. It.

        Why do I feel so sad?

        Reply

      • And just have to say. That Attitude in that “The Truth shall set you free” guy is exactly what got him killed by the Powers That Be. Just in case anybody has conveniently forgotten about that little factoid.

        Reply

  98. Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 11:12 am

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I called back on a hunch to find out if there was a problem with this PARTICULAR
    >> case and a very nice but very inquisitive lady asked me a lot of very pointed
    >> questions as to why I wanted this information.

    She was actually just “doing her job” there.

    Arizona Law establishes that there are, in fact, circumstances when someone known in legal lingo as “the custodian of a public record” can/should make decisions about whether information being requested is for COMMERCIAL use… and then also make a decision about whether that particular ‘commercial use’ is “appropriate”.

    Here’s the actual Arizona Statute about that.

    It actually gives the “custodian of the public record” the right to petition the governor for a specific ‘denial’ for a specific ‘records request’…

    Title 39 of Arizona Law – Public Records, Printing and Notices
    http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=39

    From Chapter 1 – Article 2 – Section 39-121.03
    ——————————————————————————-
    39-121.03 – Request for copies, printouts or photographs; statement of purpose; commercial purpose as abuse of public record; determination by governor; civil penalty; definition

    A. When a person requests copies, printouts or photographs of public records for a commercial purpose, the person shall provide a statement setting forth the commercial purpose for which the copies, printouts or photographs will be used.

    3-B. If the custodian of a public record determines that the commercial purpose stated in the statement is a misuse of public records or is an abuse of the right to receive public records, the custodian may apply to the governor requesting that the governor by executive order prohibit the furnishing of copies, printouts or photographs for such commercial purpose.
    ——————————————————————————-

    So that actually gives the “custodian of the public record” the ‘authoritay’ to at least ask some questions about why the information is being requested.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> After she asked me who was involved in the case, and of course I
    >> replied AMANDA MARSH, I was put on hold…twice…for what I considered
    >> to be a long periods of time and then I was asked some more pointed questions
    >> from a very nice lady who had a very hard edge to her voice.

    Again… given that Amanda Marsh herself has established herself as a ‘Public Figure’ there in Arizona and is currently sitting on an Arizona State Public Board ( and, so, can be also considered a temporary ‘public official’ )… the “keepers of the public records” have the right to ask some questions.

    See above about the whole COMMERCIAL USE thingy and the fact these “keepers of the public records” DO have some “authoritay” to make decisions.

    OR… it could just be that the people in that office know very well that any requests for anything related to The Yarnell Hill Incident are, generally, ongoing “Oh Shit!” moments for them and the low level clerks have been told to be sure and get the ‘managers’ involved.

    >> Gary Olson…
    >>
    >> And in the end the very nice lady told me that the case had been appealed and
    >> that is why it is now in Superior Court. >> BUT…the CD with all of the original
    >> testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike in the area of the deployment site is in
    >> Judge Markam’s control

    Whoops. BIG RED FLAG.

    You may have just been informed that this Judge Markham guy is officially in VIOLATION of Arizona Law AND codified Arizona Judicial Court procedures, and, at the very least, deserves a ‘rebuke’ of some sort. There might even be FINES involved. See below.

    Arizona Law is VERY SPECIFIC about what has to happen when a case from a lower County or Municipal Court goes to ‘appeal’ up in SUPERIOR Court.

    Arizona Law says that the moment the case is ‘appealed’… the LOWER Court Clerks MUST make ‘certified copies’ of EVERYTHING related to that case and they must then immediately deliver/transmit EVERYTHING up to the Clerks of the SUPERIOR court… so that the new ‘appeal’ case file ( which is going to get its own case number up there in SUPERIOR court ) is a fully self-contained, identical COPY of EVERYTHING associated with that original case.

    No ‘Wiggle Room’.

    Here is the actual Arizona LAW regarding that…

    First and foremost… the following is from the actual Arizona Law regarding (specifically) “Injunctions Against Harassment” and how ANYONE has the right to appeal a decision made against them in a County or Municipal Court up to the corresponding SUPERIOR Court…

    ———————————————————————————————
    12-1809. Injunction against harassment; petition; venue; fees; notices; enforcement; definition

    O. An order that is entered by a justice court or municipal court after a hearing pursuant to this section may be appealed to the superior court as provided in title 22, chapter 2, article 4, section 22-425, subsection B and the superior court rules of civil appellate procedure without regard to an amount in controversy. No fee may be charged to either party for filing an appeal.
    ———————————————————————————————

    Okay… makes sense.

    So here is Arizona Law – Title 22, chapter 2, article 4 mentioned above…

    ———————————————————————————————
    Title 22 – Justice and Municipal Courts
    Chapter 2 – Civil Proceedings in Justice Courts
    Article 4 – Appeals
    Section 22-264 – Transmittal of court records and papers

    A. When an appeal is taken the justice of the peace shall make a certified copy of all court record documents, exhibits and other objects filed with the court and transmit them, together with a certified copy of the bill of costs, to the clerk of the superior court. The record of the proceedings shall be certified by the justice of the peace or as stipulated by the parties.

    B. The superior court may order the justice of the peace, on motion and cause shown, to transmit the items that are listed in subsection A of this section, and may fine the justice of the peace for neglect or refusal to transmit those items within the time ordered.

    C. The copy of the court record documents, exhibits and other objects filed with the court shall be transmitted to the clerk of the superior court within ten days after filing the bond on appeal.
    —————————————————————————————

    So the “Justice of the Peace” from the lower court where the appeal is coming from is specifically named as the one who is required by LAW to make certified copies of EVERYTHING and get EVERYTHING transmitted up to the SUPERIOR Court within ten days of the appeal being filed.

    Guess who is ALL of the following…

    The Prescott Justice of the Peace
    The Prescott City Magistrate
    A Prescott Municipal Court Judge.

    ( Time’s up )

    Judge Arthur Markham.

    The only way it would seem Mr. Markham ( as both Judge in the case AND the designated Prescott ‘Justice of the Peace’ ) could be compliant with this Arizona Law is if he decided to just ‘hang on’ to the AUDIO recording CD and put it in his desk… but he actually DID ‘transmit’ a full and complete WRITTEN transcript of what is ON that CD up to the SUPERIOR Court at the same time he was required to also send full ‘certified copies’ of EVERYTHING to do with that case that was now going to SUPERIOR court.

    So ( according to Arizona Law ) that means you really SHOULD be able to ALSO request ALL of the records associated with Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court Case number
    P-1300-CV-201500154, and you SHOULD get EVERYTHING that the ‘lower’ court had/has… including EITHER a ‘certified copy’ of the courtroom recording ( which is known to exist ) OR a ‘certified transcript’ of that same audio recording.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> and as of today…right now at least, I was told that anyone could get a copy of
    >> the CD under THEIR case number which is; 20141222

    That’s all well and good ( and is as it SHOULD be )… but see above.

    According to Arizona Law… either a ‘certified copy’ of that original audio CD or a ‘certified transcript’ of the full contents of it are also SUPPOSED to be already ‘on file’ with the Court Clerks up there in Yavapai County Superior Court where this case is ‘on appeal’.

    If either of the above are NOT up there in SUPERIOR Court now… then Mr. Markham hasn’t done what he was required by LAW to do.

    Reply

    • BUT…the CD with all of the original
      >> testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike in the area of the deployment site is in
      >> Judge Markam’s control

      I wasn’t very precise with my words there, She said it has been appealed and in the conversation she said I could get a copy of the CD by sending to Judge Markam’s office, a letter requesting it and the money order. So…it was implied that it is under his control, but not specifically stated. Are you sure you are not an attorney?

      “OR… it could just be that the people in that office know very well that any requests for anything related to The Yarnell Hill Incident are, generally, ongoing “Oh Shit!” moments for them and the low level clerks have been told to be sure and get the ‘managers’ involved.”

      I pick that one, although I was very friendly and open with her and she responded accordingly after a little while. I always went with being Special Agent Friendly or Dumb Ass that needed things explained to me very slowly and in simple language. It worked pretty well most of the time. And she was after all, a very nice lady as I have said more than once.

      I think there is more to this story than we have been able to figure out at this point because all of our information is coming from Joy and she isn’t allowed to give us any information (according to her interpretation of what she heard them tell her).

      So, I am curious about what happened in this case and I really want to find out who the hell Max Maisal (sp) is? Somebody with the state land department I think, who is kind of like some Dark Lord of Arizona State Trust Land I guess?. Sounds to me like this dude needs to go on a cruise or get a massage.

      So.. of course I certainly admire your negativity, plan for the worst but hope for the best. But I hope it is not really that complicated and they just mail me the CD.

      Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 11:38 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> I wasn’t very precise with my words there, She said it has been
        >> appealed and in the conversation she said I could get a copy
        >> of the CD by sending to Judge Markam’s office, a letter requesting
        >> it and the money order. So…it was implied that it is under his control,
        >> but not specifically stated.

        Copy that.

        I guess the only way to be sure if Prescott “Justice of the Peace” Aruthur Markham really did fulfill his legal responsibilities would be to actually request the full array of documents / objects for BOTH the lower ( his Court ) and the Superior Court… and see what might be ‘missing’ up there in Superior court.

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> Are you sure you are not an attorney?

        I’m sure… but I have been known to stay in a Holiday Inn Express ( seriously ).

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> I was very friendly and open with her and she responded accordingly
        >> after a little while.

        That’s good. It’s about as clear as mud in the Arizona statues what might actually constitute an “inappropriate commercial use of public records”… but some “custodian of the records” ( underling or manager ) is, in fact, supposed to at least try to elicit an ‘explanation’ for why the record(s) are being requested.

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> I think there is more to this story than we have been able to figure
        >> out at this point…
        >>
        >> … So, I am curious about what happened in this case and I really
        >> want to find out who the hell Max Maisal (sp) is? Somebody with
        >> the state land department I think, who is kind of like some Dark
        >> Lord of Arizona State Trust Land I guess?. Sounds to me like
        >> this dude needs to go on a cruise or get a massage.

        It’s actually ‘Max Masel’ – Director of the Arizona State Land Department

        I know the following URL says ‘Jim Adams’… but this is actually the online page at Arizona Land Department that lists ‘Max Masel’ as ‘Director’.

        Jim Adams is just the ‘Deputy State Land Commissioner’.

        Must just be a mixup on their Web Site with the URLs and what
        pages are supposed to show.

        https://land.az.gov/jim-adams-0

        >> Gary Olson also said…
        >>
        >> So.. of course I certainly admire your negativity, plan for the
        >> worst but hope for the best. But I hope it is not really that
        >> complicated and they just mail me the CD.

        I don’t see why they wouldn’t… unless someone steps in to shut the request down ( there’s that “if anything can go wrong it will” outlook again! ROFL ).

        Just to be clear, though.

        You ONLY requested the CD, right?

        And not the original affadavit filed by the plaintiff?

        It might be clear in the recordings/transcripts… but what still intrigues me most is whether or not the allegations made in the legal affidavit that had to be filed to even cause the hearing to happen bear any resemblance to the content of the conversation in the courtroom once the hearing DID take place.

        For an “Injunction for Harrassment” to actually have been GRANTED by a Judge ( Markham ) and then immediately served on the defendant BEFORE there was ever a hearing means that the allegations made in the original affidavit had to be SERIOUS + detailed + accurate + BELIEVABLE/PLAUSIBLE.

        It says so in Arizona Law.

        The Judge isn’t supposed to issue an ‘Order’ BEFORE a hearing unless he is convinced the allegations being made in the affidavit are SERIOUS… and TRUE.

        So since that is what actually happened in this particular case… it’s still important to know what (all) those original ‘allegations’ actually WERE…

        …and then ( as recordings should show )… whether those ‘allegations’ were even fully discussed in the hearing or whether the hearing itself took some huge LEFT TURN and was about a whole lot of ‘other shit’ not even related to the original complaint from the plaintiff ( such as where someone should be allowed to frickin’ HIKE ).

        Reply

        • Well…you bring up a very good point about the original affidavit, and no, I didn’t request it. I think that kind of paperwork just has very short, generalized statements on them that are fleshed out and supported by all of the testimony in the hearing. But I might be underestimating the value of the actual document. In any case, I didn’t even think about asking for it.

          It would be really nice for someone who is reading this thread and who lives in Prescott to wander into that office and get everything they can right then and there on the spot…how about it…somebody?

          But I really do hope everything is revealed in the actual testimony that they believed would support whatever it is they tried to accomplish and we can hear all of their bullshit.

          And if what they tried to accomplish was to scare the daylights out of Joy and make her jump at her own shadow…it worked really well. Maybe that bunch could find work in Mr. Putin’s Nuevo Russia as he tries to rebuild the Soviet Empire?

          As a former investigator who had some responsibility to do internal investigations involving managers who did the wrong thing, I would really like to get a shot at the Dark Lord of the Arizona State Land Department and see if I couldn’t find something to jam him up on, even if I had to fabricate the evidence (just kidding, what a joker!) myself!

          I really like the old, “I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night” almost as much as I like my, “I do have some good news for everyone.” Timeless classics.

          Reply

          • ( Begin complete off-topic rant )

            The situation in this country with these “Protective Orders” and “Injunctions Against Harassment”, and how things have gotten to where they are with these things, ought to scare the living shit out of everyone.

            It’s one of the only times when you are absolutely considered GUILTY until proven INNOCENT… and everything you must then do to prove your own innocence comes at YOUR EXPENSE.

            ANYONE can just go ‘online’ now, fill out a Javascript-based FORM… and ACCUSE anyone of anything… and before the accused even knows what is happening a Police Officer shows up handing you a Court Order.

            It is then up to YOU to even REQUEST the fucking HEARING ( just ONE ) that you are supposed to be entitled to now to even have a chance to tell your side of the story.

            If you don’t request the hearing… you are assumed to be even more GUILTY than whoever already did just because they read some piece of paper and decided to go ahead an issue the Order BEFORE you even knew someone was even asking for that Order.

            If you don’t show up for this “one-shot-deal” hearing… you are, once again, totally GUILTY and there’s no chance to even try to reschedule it even if you were lying sick in bed that day, or something.

            Courts everywhere are taking the $10 to $25 ( and more ) dollars filing fees and handing these ‘Orders’ out like candy.

            You end up having NO “rights to an attorney if you cannot afford one” and you are now totally on your own to even TRY and prove whether someone is totally lying out of every orifice in their body.

            Yea… yea… I know.. things have evolved to this point because the instances of domestic abuse and battery are at their highest levels ever in this country… and there will ALWAYS be a SERIOUS need for citizens to walk into a Clerk’s office and ( as fast as possible ) get a Judge to Order someone to stay away from them… like RIGHT NOW…

            …but it’s gone far beyond that.

            It’s being ABUSED on a regular basis and people are getting away with a lot of shit because of it.

            This deal in Prescott might turn out to be just be one more instance of that. They did it… because they COULD.

            ( End of complete off-topic rant )

            Reply

            • That sounds pretty bad and it reminds me a little bit of what some parents have gone through being wrongly accuse do child abuse for a variety of reasons. It really comes down to a no win situation, especially since I don’t know if one of those orders has ever really saved someone from death or serious injury from someone who really wants to hurt them. Damned if they do, and damned it they don’t.

              Except in this case maybe, I think that we will be able to analyze everything everybody said and subsequently did regarding Joy’s “Protective Orders” or “Injunctions Against Harassment”, whatever it was.

              And IF…anyone abused the system in any way, shape or form, I think we should use this thread to expose them for what they did. This thread provides us with a limited voice, but at least it’s something in a world where too often, too few people can speak and be heard.

              Reply

    • Joy did appeal but the Superior Court just agreed with the original decision and she received a latter back to that effect.

      Seems to me that Joy’s case was allowed simply to keep her from continuing to investigate and talk about the case concerning the deaths of the 19 members of the GMHS crew. She is one person that knows just about every soul in Yarnell-Glen Isla on a personal basis and has been able to access information and photos that not even a professional investigator could or in this case would do. I know here uncanny ability to see through scams and her photographic memory of things she has seen. As well, she knows and has kept informed from the local and Congress fire fighting people. She knows most of them on a personal basis–except perhaps Chief Ben Palm whom she has researched and knows well his background and new induction into the fire fighting experiment.

      That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future preformances before an audience. One does wonder how he would have much to say about fire fighting considering that he thinks the safety rules are hill billy and to be a fire fighter all you need to do is wing it using your inexperienced best judgement. Well in this case his bosses who after all nearly got him killed by leaving him there to use the lack of judgement he had in the Yarnell fire. Is he worth the listen considering how he with held information and truth that was due the loved ones long ago. In my case, I would not bother to waste my time to hear him out. I know enough about him by now that I would only feel sorry that he has not been transparent with the truth. I certainly won’t bother to buy his book either.

      The investigation was purposely intended to make these men out to be the heroes they were but without revealing how their methods of fire fighting were in gross error. Their disdain for fire fighting rules as pointed out by Donut’s talk and video needed to be shown to the profession to save lives–but instead God himself is blamed — that is what he wanted that day and he had other plans for them. Bull shit, if you hang off a ledge washing windows ten stories up without a safety harness and then fall ten stories is that what God had planned for you or were you just stupid enough to take the risk without the harness and then fell to your own death. It is akin to suicide as far as I am concerned and without taking safety measures you surely can’t blame God.

      Truth will win out on this one eventually. Joy is one of those that has discovered much of it that those that are not in immediate proximity were not able to do. There are some telling photos she has brought forward–her own and many she retrieved from friends. I don’t see her as a quitter and we have both said those men deserve to have the truth out there. Being next to God you know damn well they would want nothing but the truth out there for their loved ones, for future fire fighters, friends and anyone who wants to know.

      Reply

      • reply to Sonny on his inaccurate statement:
        “Seems to me that Joy’s case was allowed simply to keep her from continuing to investigate and talk about the case concerning the deaths of the 19 members of the GMHS crew. She is one person that knows just about every soul in Yarnell-Glen Isla on a personal basis and has been able to access information and photos that not even a professional investigator could or in this case would do. ”
        MY REPLY:
        that is what YOU took away from it but I am only not allowed to talk about A person private or public and okay with it too

        Reply

      • reply to Sonny’s statement: “That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future preformances before an audience.”MY REPLY: Houdini comes to my mind…if Donut was able to go this far…shocked he has not been asked to be into espionage…be a spy…put that on his IMDB page maybe down the road..

        Reply

      • reply to Sonny’s statement: “Truth will win out on this one eventually. Joy is one of those that has discovered much of it that those that are not in immediate proximity were not able to do. There are some telling photos she has brought forward–her own and many she retrieved from friends. I don’t see her as a quitter and we have both said those men deserve to have the truth out there.” MY REPLY: Hope you are right Sonny…on truth winning…I feel I am restricted to be me anymore online on certain areas is all…I wonder if the MISSING ELEMENTS feel the same way…

        Reply

      • Reply to Sonny post on September 23, 2015 at 2:49 pm

        >> Sonny said…
        >>
        >> Joy did appeal but the Superior Court just agreed with the
        >> original decision and she received a latter back to that effect.

        Then it remains a total mystery why the official online public record for this ‘appeal’ has no indication of that ( there is no DISPOSITION entry in the record ) and there is still not even the name of the JUDGE who was ‘assigned’ to consider this appeal ( which he/she obviously ‘denied’ and just agreed with the lower court’s decision ).

        This would be another ‘Double Eye’ scenario.

        The lack of information in the public record is either ‘Incompetence’… or it is ‘Intentional’.

        Once again… below are the results from entering ‘Amanda Marsh’ into the Arizona Courts records system at the following URL ( after getting through the ‘captcha’ thing on the home page ).

        Notice that the record which comes up is obviously the ‘appeal’ of Joy’s case showing up in the Yavapai County Superior Court… but there is still absolutely NO DISPOSITION Date ( OR Result ) showing where it’s supposed to… and there is still absolutely no NAME of any JUDGE showing.

        https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

        —————————————————————-
        Case Number: P-1300-CV-201500154

        Title: AMANDA BENO MARSH VS. JOY A. COLLURA
        Category: Civil
        Court: Yavapai County Superior
        Filing Date: 2/19/2015
        Judge: ( NO ENTRY )
        Disposition Date: ( NO ENTRY )

        JOY ANN COLLURA: APPELLANT – A 1
        AMANDA BENO MARSH: APPELLEE – B 1

        Case Activity

        Date / Description / Party
        4/23/2015 NOTICE: AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RECEIPT A 1
        4/17/2015 ORDER: Order A 1
        2/20/2015 NOTICE: Notice A 1
        2/19/2015 NOTICE: TRANSMITTAL OF RECORD FROM LOWER COURT A 1
        —————————————————————-

        Notice also that according to these ‘docket’ entries… it took almost exactly TWO MONTHS ( From February 20, 2015 to April 17, 2015 ) for some ‘mystery Judge’ to finally make up his mind that the APPELLANT ( Joy Collura ) wasn’t even entitled to another hearing on this matter.

        Original lower Court ( Markham’s ) Order ‘upheld’ without even a hearing.

        Case ( Appeal ) dismissed.

        >> Sonny also wrote…
        >>
        >>
        >> That was quite a lineup WTKTT gave us for Donut and his future
        >> preformances before an audience. One does wonder how he would
        >> have much to say about fire fighting considering that he thinks the
        >> safety rules are hill billy and to be a fire fighter all you need to do
        >> is wing it using your inexperienced best judgement.

        I keep waiting for some sign of a ‘transcript’ or even a ‘video’ to appear that would give some indication what Brendan McDonough is even SAYING at these ‘speaking engagements’… but so far… nothing.

        Brendan keeps posting these ‘pseudo press releases’ about his engagements on his own Facebook page ( where he still list his occupation as ‘Public Figure’. )… but even there all you will see following the engagements are little one-liners like “Thanks for coming” or “God be with ya!” or “We are with ya, brotha!”.

        Not even any indication in any comment what it was he even talked about.

        Just a lot of what have become known now as ‘Facebook FARTS”.

        I doubt Brendan is making ANY mention of the Wildland Firefighting industry at all in these ‘speeches’. It’s probably all just still “I miss my Brothers” stuff.

        If that’s what the people paying for him to speak want to hear… then I guess they aren’t being disappointed.

        Something tells me there are also NEVER any ‘questions from the audience’ at these speaking engagements. Brendan just talks… people just applaud… and he just walks off the stage.

        >> Sonny also said…
        >>
        >> The investigation was purposely intended to make these men out to
        >> be the heroes they were but without revealing how their methods of
        >> fire fighting were in gross error.

        Which has always, itself, just been a juvenile way of approaching it.

        It’s like they didn’t think ADULTS could handle the reality that mistakes WERE made… but that in no way diminishes the profession or the industry or the rest of the ( good ) accomplishments of that organization. And despite all their warts and goblins… there WERE, certainly, those things.

        That’s really been the problem all along here.

        There have never been enough ADULTS “in the room”.

        >> Sonny also said…
        >>
        >> Their disdain for fire fighting rules as pointed out by Donut’s talk and
        >> video needed to be shown to the profession to save lives–but instead
        >> God himself is blamed — that is what he wanted that day and he had
        >> other plans for them. Bull shit, if you hang off a ledge washing windows
        >> ten stories up without a safety harness and then fall ten stories is that
        >> what God had planned for you or were you just stupid enough to take
        >> the risk without the harness and then fell to your own death. It is akin
        >> to suicide as far as I am concerned and without taking safety
        >> measures you surely can’t blame God.

        I agree… but other than what we now have to realize ( because of Brendan’s recent statements to Bill Gabbert ) Eric Marsh *may* have done that afternoon ( as his final act )… there is no other evidence that ‘suicide’ was in the picture.

        No one WANTED to die that afternoon.

        It was a series of horrible mistakes in judgement and blatant violations of the rules of their own profession that (ultimately) caused the tragedy.

        Those things CAN be ‘studied’…. and “Lessons can/should be learned”.

        Reply

  99. Just a little slightly drunken (to be honest) note.

    I AM reading. But also moving and also it is PhotoWeek2015 on Seattle, Washington’s CreativeLIVE, which is a VERY BIG DEAL for me. Including discovering that that woman in the video of Matt Kosklowski teaching landscape photography, on their Bus Trip from San Francisco to Seattle, who asked him at their event in Sacramento, why her photos of the area burned in the Butte Fire, from which she was still evacuated, were over-exposed, was a woman who is the wife of a California Fire-Fighter and who photographs California Fire-Fighting, with whom I frequently converse in the CreativeLIVE chatroom about the Yarnell Fire and who, therefore, frequently reads this conversation. I’m currently putting together a collection of links for her to look at of the photos of the aftermath of the Yarnell Fire. She wants to really photo-document the aftermath of the Butte Fire. Six degrees of separation.

    Oh yes, and I have to add that she said there were all kinds of communications problems going on on the Initial Attack on the Butte Fire. That’s the one where the smoke-jumpers (I think?) got burned over.

    There’s also another woman photographer out of Phoenix who studied ecology and fire ecology who just said today, in the chatroom, “It really looks to me like some policies need to change regarding all of this….DONTCHA THINK???” So another six degrees of separation.

    Some of this had to do with my saying I had started to photograph the aftermath of the several wildfire burns over the Valles Caldera, where the Granite Mountain Hotshots had fought the Thompson Ridge Fire just weeks before getting themselves killed on the Yarnell HIll Fire.

    And thank you Gary for going after the whole deal regarding that court order denying Joy her rights to hike on the Weavers and to WTKTT for partnering with that. That has not made any sense to me whatsoever. I would have volunteered to help pay whatever costs could have been required for that documentation and transcripting. And I had always been stumped as to Ted Putnam’s involvement in it. I would really really really appreciate access to that hearing, as difficult as it has been to find it.

    OK. Now about religion. This is gonna be brief, because I am basically falling asleep. I may say more later. I was, for 35 years, a United Church of Christ ordained Minister. Translate Lefty Social Justice Environmentalist Feminist also into Native American and Buddhist thinking, but still ordainable, Professional Minister. Worked in Parish Ministry, Social Advocacy (including Native American Lands Claims stuff ala the International Indian Treaty Council), environmental issues and Justice (via the New Mexico Conferene of Churches), etc etc etc.

    I was also a Girl Scout Leader. When I was wearing my Girl Scout Leader Hat, religion was never ever ever ever ever ever deemed to be a part of what we were doing, even though the co-leader of our Troop was a MUCH more conservative Christian than I was, and, privately between she and me , we had LOTS of interesting conversations. That would have NEVER been acceptable to have been included in what we were doing/saying with the Troop within the Girl Scouts of the USA.

    And that’s just the frickin’ Girl Scouts!!!

    WTF with the Granite Mountain Hotshots?????? Yep I do DEFINITELY believe there’s a BIG problem there and I also believe this whole thing with Deborah Pfingston and Amanda Marsh apparently using this whole religion thingy to deny Joy her rights is complete and utter BS, and I totally agree with Gary in his wonderful term-filled description of Darrell Willis.

    OK now I am seriously falling asleep. But just one more notation. My dad, the chief meteorologist for the entire atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program, died in 2007 from lung cancer. He smoked cigarettes majorly. He also got $150K in compensation for radiation exposure linked to his cancer right before he died. My mom also got another $150K in compensation after he died. My dad and I argued about nuclear power endlessly. Fukushima validated my concerns. When Fukushima happened, I said to my dad, wherever you are in the Universe, I won that argument, I won that bet, and now you owe me the cost of the iPad I am now about to buy.

    When you, Gary, wrote that your dad died in a New Mexico uranium mine, I was truly heart-broken. I mean I really felt it personally. And all Sonny has written about that stuff has also hit me personally. I feel your pain.

    So I just wanted to say those things. Even though I am falling asleep. Just wanted to let people know I haven’t exactly LEFT this conversation, but have a LOT of other stuff going on.

    Oh and yes, I also agree, as I have said downstream, that this whole thing of creating these hybrid structure-wildland fire-fighters is starting to prove itself to be a seriously potentially deadly experiment that needs to be seriously re-calibrated.

    And it has been POURING DOWN RAIN in Albuquerque all day, and I have two houses with leaky roofs. We are just totally benefitting from the “weak El Nino” that also is keeping the west and northwest dry and burning this year.

    OK, so Goodnite! And thank you all!!

    Reply

    • Thank you Marti, since went my entire life without talking about my father, so you might actually be the first person to ever tell me that. We learned very early to never mention him because our mother would have a major emotional melt down right then and there. But now that I am old and my mother is gone, so I can talk about anything I want to. That is just one of the privileges of being off the rez.

      Now…if someone mentions my little brother to me…well then, I have a fucking melt down right then and there. He was a union shop steward and he really hated Reagan and the top 1%, so now, I piss on them whenever I can in his memory.

      The federal government did eventually give some pretty good payments to those who died as the result of radiation type exposure, but the Great State of New Mexico (Workman’s Compensation) who were of course in league with the Kerr-McGee Corporation (and in their pockets), their subsidiaries and the top one percent…didn’t pay out very much for deaths in the mine. And they didn’t spend much on worker safety either, it was cheaper to hire new men.

      Like the Army told Sonny, they could get another grunt, but not another Jeep.

      The world is a fucked up place…in general and always has been Just look at what the U.S. Forest Service and that dirty rotten bought and paid for piece of human excrement and fine example of USFS management Dudley Fucking Do Wrong did. I mean come on…it was 2013 not 1958 with Kerr-McGee in New Mexico for Christ’s Sake (he understands, he hates Dudley and Kerr-McGee too).

      Do you see how that works… you Christian Fundamentalists? I can wrap myself in religion as well as you can and project what I think on Jesus Christ and God just as good as you can, and maybe better.

      Whoops…time to sign off now, before I get some more chill-the-fuck-out emails.

      Reply

      • And also, I just have to say, that that video you once created and .posted on YouTube, with the song that said something like “Why do I feel so bad,” that you posted and linked downstream recently but apparently isn’t there anymore, at your website at this moment, as your “memorial” to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, was really totally one of my number one top favorites among ALL of the memorials to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        I really think it’s possible and even necessary to analyze and document and critique the mindsets and culture and even stupid decisions that led to their deaths while also still feeling all the gut-wrenching pain (and I’ve cried regularly about this) about what happened to those 19 awesome people who un-neccesarily died on this fire..

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • I just put it up (“Why do I feel so bad,” ) because that is how I was feeling that night, but that song really sums up for me how I feel about what happened. I think I will build a page dedicated to collecting misc. stuff for the YH fire on and I will put that video back up.

          And yes, it is the same song I used with my tribute to GMIHC but I can’t watch it anymore because I can’t stand to see Donut’s face in it. I am going to have to redo it now (at some point) and remove all photos of that dumb ass jerk off.

          Reply

  100. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH IS NOW BEING REPRESENTED BY THE
    ** SAME TALENT AGENCY AS AL PACINO AND ARNOLD SCHWARZENEGGER

    Brendan McDonough has been very busy since before/after Bill Gabbert published that recent interview with him.

    Brendan is now being represented by the same Hollywood Talent Agency ( The APA ) as Al Pacino, Arnold Schwarzenegger and many other ‘celebrities’.

    All of the following ‘engagements’ since August 29, 2015 have either been in the PUBLIC press or Brendan has announced the engagements himself on his own PUBLIC Facebook page, where he still lists his occupation as “Public Figure”…

    —————————————————————————————-
    * August 29, 2015
    A speaking engagement at an EMDRIA ( Eye Movement
    Desensitization and Reprocessing International Association )
    conference in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania.

    * August 31, 2015
    Bill Gabbert of ‘Wildfire Today’ publishes his recent interview with Brendan.
    Article Title: The Yarnell Hill Fire lone survivor: Interview with Brendan McDonough

    * September 8, 2015
    Brendan announces he will now be on the ‘pro staff’ for a sporting goods company.
    Camillus Knives.

    * Weekend of September 12/13, 2015
    A speech to National Guard Unit(s) 937/938.
    Idaho’s two National Guard Firefighting Units based in Boise, Idaho.

    * Evening of September 12, 2015
    A speaking engagement at a Military Ball in Boise, Idaho.

    * Weekend of September 19/20, 2015 ( Just this last weekend )
    An appearance at the International Association of Firefighters ( IAFF )
    annual ‘Fallen Firefighters Memorial Ceremony’ in Colorado Springs, Colorado.
    ————————————————————————————

    The ‘Talent Agency’ that is now listing Brendan as one of their ‘clients’ is called the APA ( Agency for the Performing Arts ).

    A photo ‘gallery’ of talent being represented by this APA agency is here…

    http://www.apa-agency.com/talent/speakers.aspx

    Brendan McDonough’s headshot photo is right there in the top row, right after Al Pacino’s and Arnold Schwarzenegger’s… and right above David Steinberg’s.

    From the APA’s own ‘About Us’ online page…
    ————————————————————————————-
    Founded in 1962 by former MCA executives David Baumgarten, Roger Vorce and Harvey Litwin, APA (Agency for the Performing Arts) is one of the largest diversified talent agencies in Los Angeles with headquarters in Beverly Hills, Nashville and New York. We represent artists, performers, brands, intellectual properties and production across all media platforms, including film, television, music, theater, publishing and digital.
    ————————————————————————————-

    ( Continued next Reply )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      Brendan’s new relationship with this Hollywood Talent Agency was ( no doubt ) arranged by his Los-Angeles based literay agent, Steve Fisher.

      In addition to being Brendan’s literary agent, Mr. Steve Fisher is actually a VICE PRESIDENT of this APA ( Agency for the Performing Arts ) talent agency.

      Mr. Fisher’s name emerged last April in that AZCENTRAL article about Brendan’s ‘book deal’ that was arranged even before his lawyer David Shapiro said Brendan could not testify at his second scheduled deposition because his PTSD therapist didn’t think it would be good for Brendan to do so.

      This is also the article where we learned that even WHILE Brendan’s lawyer, David Shapiro, was ‘cancelling’ Brendan’s second scheduled under-oath deposition in exchanges with Arizona State Attorneys… he ( Shapiro ) had NO IDEA that Brendan had ALREADY signed this ‘book deal’ and was ALREADY actively participating in THAT, despite any ongoing PTSD ‘therapy’.

      Brendan never even told his own attorney he had signed the book deal.

      AZCENTRAL – The Arizona Republic
      Article Title: Yarnell Fire survivor gets book deal amid controversy
      Updated: 12:52 p.m. MST April 21, 2015
      By Dennis Wagner, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez and Robert Anglen
      http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/04/21/yarnell-fire-survivor-gets-book-deal-amid-legal-strife/26110225/

      From the article…
      ———————————————————————-
      Former Granite Mountain Hotshots member Brendan McDonough has been working with best-selling author Stephan Talty to produce a book that, according to online promotional materials, will reveal “the untold story from the lone survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire.”

      McDonough, who has retained a private attorney and an agent, barely escaped flames that killed 19 fellow hotshots June 30, 2013.

      Reached by phone Monday, he ( McDonough ) declined to explain why his treatment precluded sworn testimony but did not prevent participation in a book.

      He referred calls to his legal representative and his agent.

      In an interview last week, Los Angeles-based agent Steve Fisher confirmed that a book is in the offing.

      “I suggested to Brendan that he should tell his story in book form, and he agreed and I arranged that for him,” Fisher said Friday. The narrative, he added, will focus on events leading “up to and after the fire and his efforts to help firefighter families.”

      Fisher said the contract is with Hachette Book Group, and McDonough’s account will be written by Talty. The agreement was arranged several months ago, Fisher said, and the project is in early stages. Fisher would not discuss payment or any other details about the contract.

      Talty said in an e-mail he will not talk about the book until it is published.

      McDonough, though previously interviewed by fire investigators and the media, has never answered questions about the accident under oath. His potential deposition looms in litigation stemming from the catastrophe, especially after recent claims that McDonough overheard a crucial radio transmission between the hotshot crew’s bosses.

      According to that account, which is a subject of dispute, McDonough heard Granite Mountain Hotshots supervisor Eric Marsh argue with his deputy, Jesse Steed, shortly before the fatal accident. Marsh purportedly ordered Steed to abandon a safe zone and join him with the crew. According to the account, Steed resisted, saying it was unsafe, but relented when given a direct order. All 19 firefighters were overcome by flames a short time later.

      As litigation proceeded late last year and early this year, McDonough did not attend two depositions where he was expected to be asked about the radio call.

      According to recent court filings, the most recent of those had been set for Feb. 26. Two days before that, according to a legal brief filed by the Division of Forestry, testimony was postponed “due to Mr. McDonough’s therapist informing the parties that subjecting Mr. McDonough to a deposition would impact the progress made in relation to the therapist’s treatment of Mr. McDonough for post-traumatic stress disorder.”

      McDonough appears to have been involved in the book contract at approximately the same time.

      Publishers Marketplace, an online service that lists upcoming books, recently posted this promotional blurb…

      “Firefighter Brendan McDonough with NYT bestselling author Stephan Talty’s MY LOST BROTHERS, the untold story from the lone survivor of the Yarnell Hill Fire.”

      Prescott Coty Attorney Jon Paladini said Monday it would be inconsistent for McDonough to offer revelations in a book that he didn’t provide during previous inquiries or under oath.

      “If the things he is going to put in the book are the things state Forestry want him to testify about, then it is disingenuous,”

      Paladini said. “Why didn’t we know this a year and a half ago? This is stuff we should already know.”

      Paladini said if McDonough, in return for money, is writing about what led up to the deaths of 19 comrades, he can’t easily claim that it is too traumatic to discuss.

      “Certainly, if he has enough mental acuity and enough mental capacity to write a book … he can testify,” Paladini said.

      McDonough’s lawyer in the ADOSH case, David M. Shapiro, said he was NOT AWARE of the book deal and could not comment on it.
      ———————————————————————-

      Very strange that when asked about this ‘book deal’… McDonough had ‘no comment’ and referred all questions to (quote) “his legal representative and his agent”…

      …but then when his ‘legal representative’ ( Criminal Defense attorney David Shapiro ) WAS contacted about it… Mr. Shapiro said he wasn’t even AWARE Brendan had made any kind of ‘book deal’ at all.

      I’ll. bet Shapiro felt a little ‘blind-sided’, at that point.

      Reply

      • Brendan is sick. Mentally and emotionally. And all these people are enabling him. That’s my professional opinion. The whole thing sux. That’s also my professional opinion. As someone who used to be the Outreach Minister for the New Mexico Conference of Churches Affordable Housing Project.

        I once worked, when I was the Associate Minister of the (at that time 3000 member) Mayflower Community United Church of Christ Church in Minneapolis, Minnesota, with a Senior High Youth Leader who had, before in his life, wound up in Prison for all kinds of drug abuse issues. Which was what made him really really really good as a Senior High Youth Leader. He was able to ascertain when one of our kids was heading downhill fast. And he knew when that that kid was not going to be able to begin to recover until he hit absolute BOTTOM.

        What I’ve been seeing all along with Brendan is that exact same kind of slide downhill. And, apparently, nobody that really matters has the intelligence or whatever to see it, also. It’s such a total part of the Shakespearian Tragedy that is the Yarnell Hill Wildfire. The Bard, apparently, is still writing it, in spite of all our efforts to counter-write it.

        Namaste.

        Reply

        • PS, I sincerely, deeply, hope Ted Putnam is taking notes. The “Human Factors” regarding all of this are truly all over the boards.

          And thank you, WTKTT, for following and capturing this.

          Reply

      • I am going to go out on a limb here and make an observation.

        I doubt if any words can adequately and accurately describe the hurt, anger, betrayal, bewilderment, etc. that most of those who loved the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew are feeling at this point towards our hapless hero…Donut.

        Reply

        • I hope you are right, Gary.

          And I also hope that you are right enough that they frickin’ DO SOMETHING about it.

          That young man needs a SERIOUS intervention.

          Reply

          • He also DESERVES a serious intervention.

            I don’t hold against him his craziness. He was young and wobbly when he joined the GM Hotshots in the first place, and this has, understandably thrown him even more off balance. And I understand WTKTT’s anger about his AGENDA.

            I’ve just been feeling more and more pissed off, as this game has been playing itself out, at the various other so-called “adults” in the room (and this should include the frickin’ Prescott Fire Department), who have been, in turn, via THEIR OWN AGENDAS, using Brendan’s situation to further THEIR OWN PURPOSES while ignoring the obvious fact that this young man desperately needs HELP, not further EXPLOITATION.

            Reply

            • And when I say the frickin’ Prescott Fire De[artment, I most specifically include in my thinking the Most High Reverend Darrell Willis, who, although he has since “retired” from that esteemed position he once held, should, in my possibly mistaken opinion, feel SOME kind of connection to the plight of “our hapless hero,” totally ALL things considered.

              Reply

              • And actually I don’t really see “our hapless hero” as any kind of hero at all. He just happened to have been in the wrong/right place at the wrong/right time, when a REAL Lookout was actually seriously needed.

                OK time to seriously go to bed.

                Reply

                • The “hero” part is just part of my sick, sarcastic sense of humor. I thought you would have got that part by now?

                  Of course I don’t think he is a hero, I think he is a dumb ass jerk off who was wandering around in the smoke looking for a place to lay down and be burned alive when Frisby found him by accident.

                  The only people dumber than him on that fire were the people that put that dumb ass kid in a position to hopelessly wander around and look for a place to lay down and die…in a really bad way.

                  That fire was a perfect storm of everything that could go wrong…did, in a really big way.

                  Reply

              • But before I go to bed I feel the need to remind everybody that THERE WAS A PLAN.

                This whole Shakespearian thing didn’t just randomly happen. It wasn’t the FIRE’S FAULT.

                Goodnight and Namaste

                Reply

  101. And of course, even though Joy has appealed Judge Markam’s decision, his decision is still in effect until her case is heard in Yavapai Superior Court, and since they set their own calendars based on their own priorities, Joy’s case will be heard sometime after the Second Coming of Jesus Christ Our Lord and Savior Who Is Just As Pissed Off As I Am. So…good luck with the appeal.

    And of course, Joy just thinks her the time of her ban is almost up, there is absolutely nothing stopping Amanda Marsh and the rest of her Christian Fundamentalist Coalition form waltzing back into Judge Markam’s Court and getting an extension on the court ordered ban keeping her from hiking in the area of the deployment site for ANOTHER YEAR and then another year, so on and so forth.

    Which is why it is so important for us, “the good guys” as so many of our faithful readers have referred to us as, expose this bullying and dastardly abuse of the system for what it really is…bullying and dastardly abuse of the system.

    And FYI – I am opposed to all fundamentalists, not just Christian Fundamentalists who both Senator John McCain and I like to refer to affectionately as the, “crazies”, and Donald Trump likes to fondly refer to as his, “base.”

    Former President Ronald “Piss On Your Back And Tell You That It Is Raining Trickle Down” Regan is turning over in his grave.

    So sayeth I,

    Gary L. Olson
    Investigative Journalist/Audio Specialist/Webmaster/ATV Rider!

    “I tried to stand up and fly straight, but it wasn’t easy with that sumbitch Reagan in the White House.” (H.I. in “Raising Arizona”)

    Reply

    • And FYI – It sounds like Dr. Ted Putnam testified at the hearing.. And as so many of you have read from me so many times, he is the original God Of Wildland Firefighter Safety Who Was Crucified By The Haters…so, I am really looking forward to hearing/reading what he had to say on the subject. How exciting!

      Reply

      • Oh…and one more thing. Dr. Putnam was on the Battlement Creek Fire as a sector boss (as a smokejumper-at-large, before he had a PHD, I think).

        And he was on the Battlement Creek Fire SAIT as well as the SAIT for the South Canyon Fire that burned on Storm King Mountain which is just a few miles from Battlement Mesa as the crow flies and burned under nearly identical conditions as the Battlement Creek Fire with even worse results.

        Dr. Putnam refused to sign off on the South Canyon Fire Cover-Up, which is when he was banished to wander in the wilderness by the heretics.

        “Those who cannot remember the past, are condemned to repeat it,” as quoted by George Santayana in his book “Reason in Common Sense.” He is often misquoted.

        Dr. Putnam refused to sign off on the South Canyon Fire SAIR, which he was banished to wander in the wilderness. Oh my…this is all so very exciting!

        Reply

          • Tree of Truth

            lay silent…water it and watch it grow…the truth will come in His time…
            feels like lately Gary has become the fertilizer to the tree of truth (WHO FERTILIZES IN THE FALL ANYWAYS ???) and I cannot help water it this annual…please everyone who has contacted me here locally in person and online understand at no time in 2015 will you hear from me talk on my case public or private. Not gonna happen.

            As a tot- I had tree friends as if the branches were a branch off me…my neighboring folks who are still alive/remember
            would ask me “why are you watering and touching every branch of that large tree?”
            I was not even two and I would reply “the roots are important but the branches need to know they are loved too.” I
            had a drawing tucked in my bed with that tree in such detail that I drew and named each branch with its scientific name and its common name and
            my nicknames because the big words and common words seem out of my league. I gave names as I saw each branch. As I would
            touch each branch I could see why one was weaker than the other.

            As a young kid I climbed trees very high trees even falling out of them…thought I could fly…really I did at age three.

            from age 3-7 I blocked it…that person is being released…the memories I stored…that is the start to when I learned the
            truth can be very painful and the true dangers of another…

            as a pre teen I climbed tall electrical steel poles higher than any tree or Saguaro near Lake Pleasant upon parental fatherly presence
            yet not guidance with my siblings…as well as near the Empire State Building on NJ side yet view of building my brother and I climbed very very scary heights…

            as I teen I stayed roof top anytime my fatherly presence not guidance had me without a place to rest my head because I saw the
            truths of the streets below I remained above it all.

            In the 80’s and married early 90’s I met my best friend who can carry me through it all…life to me is just that…been carried through
            not really “living” it like others…hard to get over severe traumas of days gone by when elements still exist so in a way I feel my emotions parallel the YHF and its missing elements not yet shown if they do we can properly assess fire …until I met you all here and Sonny…I felt I perfected the housewife/community volunteer role but knew nothing more…oh yeah, I
            could airbrush a women to look hot before a photo shoot or do culinary art…or ring a ding on a cash register over time and sure could sell…or hike…or skin a Mojave rattler and eat it..

            as an adult I became what others labelled me “the desert walker”…not many even knew my name “Joy” hiking up mountains
            you come through Wickenburg/Aguila to Prescott and I have been on every area of all the hills and mountain in 360 degree view.

            A step in the right direction…after the past week of reading here and others not comprehending how I spoke about Max Masel and the state
            land area restricition and Holly and how it switched and became a topic on my case ???? that I did not want or ask for and I will not discuss
            especially until order is lifted
            and even then from that moment I at first thought it was just a frustrated comment from this very site but in it I
            learned quite amazing how many thoughtless words one can speak mainly addressing me yet the past week some of you must not realize how very hard it is to lose
            a loved one so deep because the callous delivery of words I do not comprehend…like the ones on Willis and Donut and other loved ones of the men…
            I understand the frustration and I was there last year this time
            with the current YFD chief and his lack of willingness to sit down and talk to me about rumors coring to him about me.
            However like the beauty of a butterfly as it flies by that childhood tree…the beauty of its everchanging ways…
            its symbolizes joy..that butterfly once a caterpillar and in a cocoon…feeds on flowers to help further
            spread the beauty; pollination. You ever take a butterfly and look it in its eyes? Thousands of individual lenses yet they are able to see one single image clearly.
            That is one gifted and powerful animal. Ever watch one with their antennae broke…”round and round they go..” I want change on how they fight wildfires. I do not see how my case will
            help any except maybe some intuitive folks will sense by audio the very moment I am preventing myself strongly from having a public seizure in front of people who obviously
            do not have my best interest at hand and that included the judge who I saw I better remain quiet as much as I can (Gershem case)
            and let others do what they have to do and
            who is the same judge who swore in the appeals judge that did my case and the appeals judge said no need for hearing I agree
            with original…end of story so I never got to an appeals moment date. I am not allow to talk about A person that is it —that is all I am restricted—
            but by choice I choose to not talk about Debra…maybe she did not have knowledge of her husband’s
            statement of wanting to hike the lawyers and psychics MOST THOUGH…and so on the medium/psychic area I was not given the proper respect. So this butterfly symbolizes to me
            CHANGE…freedom…joy….power to transform…shift and shape…always moving so gracefully…I have learned to not take I M page so serious if I am mentioned and if I do not
            like a part in reading—I just move on—I learned from I M that growth and transformation did not have to be a traumatic experience like I saw as a kid and teen…
            This site and my current hiking pal since 8/23/11 gave me the insight and tools to have the ability to leave my cocoon (cookie cutter subdivision housewife lifestyle) and really
            venture out and LIVE versus being carried. My husband supports me and who I am. I left my safe zone (cocoon) to discover a whole new world. So I may not be able to
            fly like I thought as a tot but I soar nowadays and rise above the bs…nothing in the hearing is going to shed light to the YHF yet Gary is correct
            it is another element to the aftermath
            of the YHF…WWTKTT—huge thank you because my mentioning an old friend really has been so wonderful to catch up with her the past 12 hours…
            I am not shocked she works for USA today and
            NY Post either. Also not shocked she uncovered the corruptions in the USA court rooms. I look forward to pulling out the ol vhs and seeing us having good times.
            I would trust her in the end to run a story on me and dig deep because she knows my early
            history and we worked together and we played together and had fun sleepovers…she knows me…life was simpler as just a house wife…yet this whole new world has me
            unleashed to be outside my limiting thoughts and belief system so thank you IM and thank you Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) for helping me untrap…for helping me
            to not hold back…and see my unlimited potentials. I do have a copy of cd and as I spoke to clerk and the details within that conversation my copy remains with an old friend
            out of reach of both Tex and I until 2016. Gary, I have spiritual movements but its usually after eating a real bran muffin…your words reminds me of being with my cousin
            who died of cancer. amusement park decisions.
            ROLLER COASTER. FERRIS WHEEL.
            which one…my cousin wanted ferris wheel…I wanted to experience it all. I see you want the proper experience of it all yet I won’t participate until my order is lifted.
            Yet even when lifted I told myself “note to self…do not even mention a person name online or in person again so they can’t do this ever again”
            Remember this when writing Gary…what if you went to a blog and you saw someone writing like you do on IM about your wife or even you and its not right…
            what would you think
            or feel or do when you are told to not say a thing at all…
            IT’S SUNNY, IT’S WINDY!
            those are all realities yet we know it can change…can I ask for change…a white flag moment and let this all ride out and remain quiet until 2016. Just live life. You
            are free to carry on as you do but simple request leave my name out. If you cannot I understand…I mean I did just in the past week cuss you out private when in reality
            you are free to be you just hated seeing it brought up or seeing you called the court…I reckon because I am not able to tell you missing elements stuff…but there is
            people who should and can…call Max first..ask him full details to that YARNELL HILL restriction…when asking the questions have your magnifying glass ready…(602) 542-3000.
            Here is my take on Max. Presented himself very well. Presented the details very clear. Presented how he got information very straight. Presented he never heard my name
            ever before getting that letter from YCSO. He is just “doing his job” once YCSO sent him to do it. Next you call YCSO and ask for Sgt Ashby first and let her explain
            that she is just doing her job in that a person said something to
            her but no public record of it because I went above her and inquired. Sgt Ashby is good lady. She did a wrong to me December 1, 2014 and within 24 hours she called me and
            apologized. She is in tough spot. Loved ones addressing her. She did not fact check and just spoke as she did. I will always and I mean always SOUND RECORD and YCSO or
            any person I feel I should at this point. I have documented over time the misc. people and vehicles that should not be in my space. There is a feeling from all my perimeter
            cameras that at times we were being watched and even Charley Moseley stated as eyewitness to a horrific event that it is not abnormal to see that. He said he was
            shocked we did not vanish yet. He also said watch out for the Powers to Be…as Gary as said on IM as well.
            Enough on topic. I was only singled out on Max mailing me but the whole area IS restricted and the law is written and the law has obvious grey areas…and my whole point was how is it one person feels FREE to talk publicly of being in a restricted area. Max needs to put in writing what he said to me about who is allowed out there; that’s all.

            oh and the answer to why I won’t give a copy of cd or post it online or let another…when you finally hear transcripts and sounds like you will eventually get your own Gary…the judge mentions what I am allowed to do and not at end of hearing…many falsehoods stated too that I left it alone as a vent…I mean wait until 2016 to see on topic of Willis…I like the man yet he delivered a very improper way but you wait and see his email after the hearing why he did it…classic—

            as for Donut- I seen it too many times with pals so its no shocker. I just wish the best for him…

            Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 3:36 pm

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> And FYI – It sounds like Dr. Ted Putnam testified at the hearing.

        He did.

        Sonny has verified that Dr. Ted Putnam was there ( in person ) to testify on Joy’s behalf.

        He, himself, might have been totally surprised to discover, upon attending what he thought was supposed to be a discussion about whether Joy Collura could possibly represent any kind of ‘threat’ to anyone’s physical person ( which is what that original affidavit filed by Amanda Marsh seemed to suggest )…

        …that the ‘hearing’ suddenly became all about the plaintiff ( Amanda Marsh ) wanting the Judge to put a ‘gag’ order on Joy to just SHUT HER UP… and it also became all about HIKING privileges on some remote part of Arizona.

        Dr. Putnam himself might have been scratching his own head, at that point, and saying WTF?

        Reply

  102. OK…here is the answer for the question of the day. There is a recording of the proceeding that occurred in Judge Arthur Markham’s Court that resulted in the “no hike” order against Joy. This recording in the form of a CD can be obtained by anyone two ways.

    1. You can go into the office for his court which is located at in the Yavapai County Courthouse at 120 S. Cortez Street, Room 103, Prescott, AZ, 86303, fill out the request forms and pay $25.00.

    2. You can write a letter requesting the CD and send it with a money order for $25.00 to the same address.

    Judge Markam
    Justice of the Peace/City Magistrate
    Yavapai County Courthouse
    120 S. Cortez Street,
    Room 103,
    Prescott, AZ, 86303

    And of course to get the CD transcribed, we would have to pay a court reporter the few hundred dollars I was talking about to do it. Although WTKTT seems to have “a special set of skills” (Taken) so maybe that is not necessary, it would be for me, because I don’t have those skills.

    Apparently Judge Markam hears some cases to lessen the workload on Superior Court, and probably you can get faster service there just in case you need an emergency court order to keep Joy from exercising her God Given Right to hike in the God Forsaken Country (no offense intended Joy and Sonny) around Yarnell, Arizona.

    Reply

      • OK…here is an update.

        I called back on a hunch to find out if there was a problem with this PARTICULAR case and a very nice but very inquisitive lady asked me a lot of very pointed questions as to why I wanted this information.After she asked me who was involved in the case, and of course I replied AMANDA MARSH, I was put on hold…twice…for what I considered to be a long periods of time and then I was asked some more pointed questions from a very nice lady who had a very hard edge to her voice.

        And in the end the very nice lady told me that the case had been appealed and that is why it is now in Superior Court. BUT…the CD with all of the original testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike in the area of the deployment site is in Judge Markam’s control and as of today…right now at least, I was told that anyone could get a copy of the CD under THEIR case number which is;

        20141222

        The hearing occurred on January 8, 2015.

        There…I accomplished something for the good of the order, which is truly a rare occurrence for me in our continuing quest for the truth. May God Bless America!

        Reply

        • Gary, I would be willing to cover the cost of the $25 if I knew that WTKTT was willing (or had the time available) to listen to the CD and give his analysis.

          Reply

          • Right on. Oh…and one more thing. I gave myself a new title today and it felt really good;

            Investigative Journalist

            I think I will have some business cards printed up so when people ask me, “what do you DO?” I can present them with one.

            Gary L. Olson – Investigative Journalist & ATV Rider!

            I used to be a Jeeper, but there are pretty much just trees and mud up here. And all of the trees look pretty much the same. Tall and green. BUT…my dear wife is happy, so…

            Reply

            • UPDATE. ALERT!

              A loyal reader just offered to pay the $25.00 for the CD, but my dear wife give me an allowance and this is doable for me, so I have a new plan.

              I am going to send for the CD independent of what anyone else is going to do, and once I get it, I am going to try my best to post it on my web site as an audio file, just like I do the songs I pirate and then everybody can listen to it. It will be a real hoot!

              And then the next time I am talking to that nice lady with the hard edge to her voice in Judge Markam’s office, I can tell her I am an Audio Specialist & Webmaster!

              Reply

              • FYI – One of our loyal readers who does not blog here for security reasons (not everybody is as crazy as I am). So…this topic is generating a lot of interest. Right on! I love new technology, IF I can figure out how to use it.

                Reply

              • That is some very good news, Gary. Indeed, it absolutely WILL be a real hoot. And, I am so looking forward to hearing what someone like WTKTT has to say about it all.

                Reply

                • Yes, I do hope I am able to load it on line because it will be fun, but you are right, reading WTKTT analysis will be very important.

                  Reply

                  • There’s a good chance that what comes on the CD won’t be a flat-out standard audio file like .WAV or .MP4 or whatever.

                    Most court systems use some commericial recording systems and it might require their proprietary ‘audio player’ to listen to the court recording.

                    But fear not…

                    There isn’t one of these systems I am aware of where the ‘audio player’ isn’t FREE and just downloadable somewhere.

                    It pretty much has to be.

                    Attorneys have to ‘listen’ to these recordings and do their own transcripts… so it has to be EAST to listen to the audio recording even if it was done with some proprietary recording software.

                    It’s also perfectly possible to the ‘convert’ whatever the original is to some standard audio format.

                    If the recording appears… I will do whatever it takes to make it what it should ALREADY be…

                    ..PUBLICLY available.

                    ( Transcript included ).

                    Reply

                    • Whoops. Typo above.

                      Meant to say ‘EASY’… not ‘EAST’.

                      Paragraph above should have read like this…

                      Attorneys have to ‘listen’ to these recordings and do their own transcripts… so it has to be EASY to listen to the audio recording even if it was done with some proprietary recording software.

                    • Yes, as always, thank you, WTKTT. “IF” I get it, you will have it a few minutes later unless it is to big to be emailed and then I may be able to figure out how to put it in a drop box account if it is too big.

                      I was already planning on you being able to break the code if it is more complicated than the songs I pirate to put on some of my websites. But, if it is something I am used to dealing with, it will be loaded on my website a few minutes after I get it for all to listen to and judge for themselves what happened.

                      It did make me a little nervous because I was asked so many questions and put on hold twice while the nice lady clearly went and talked to someone else, but I already have the letter and the money order in the mail, so we will see?

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 22, 2015 at 11:12 am

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >>
          >> OK…here is an update.
          >>
          >> I called back on a hunch to find out if there was a problem with
          >> this PARTICULAR case and a very nice but very inquisitive lady
          >> asked me a lot of very pointed questions as to why I wanted this
          >> information.After she asked me who was involved in the case,
          >> and of course I replied AMANDA MARSH, I was put on hold…
          >> twice…for what I considered to be a long periods of time and
          >> then I was asked some more pointed questions from a very nice
          >> lady who had a very hard edge to her voice.
          >>
          >> And in the end the very nice lady told me that the case had been
          >> appealed and that is why it is now in Superior Court. BUT…the
          >> CD with all of the original testimony as to why Joy shouldn’t hike
          >> in the area of the deployment site is in Judge Markam’s control
          >> and as of today…right now at least, I was told that anyone could
          >> get a copy of the CD under THEIR case number which is;
          >>
          >> 20141222
          >>
          >> The hearing occurred on January 8, 2015.

          The following will come as no surprise, of course, but just CONFIRMING that if you go to the following online ‘Public Records’ system for the Court where this matter WAS originally heard by this Judge Markham guy…

          Prescott City/Justice Court
          On line Court Inquiry
          Last Database Update Tue Sept. 22, 2015 at 4:00 AM
          http://71.216.160.127/csp/pcc/csp1.csp

          …and you enter that exact 20141222 ‘case docket number’ into the search field… the results are…

          Zero. Zip. Nada.

          Like it never even existed there in that court where it was heard.

          I’d still love to know what the JUSTIFICATION for this is.

          If the case was SEALED in that lower court… then guess what?… there SHOULD also be a ‘Judge’s Order’ to that effect as part of the case record, and even then there has to be a REASON stated for why records that are supposed to be showing up according to Arizona’s strict ‘Open Records’ laws… are NOT ‘showing up’.

          The Arizona Open Records Laws get pretty specific about this.

          Once a ‘Order’ has been signed/issued by a Judge ( Either a PO “Protective Order” or an IAH “Injunction Against Harassment” )… there is a very limited/finite set of reasons WHY that court case can/should ever be SEALED and not even ‘showing’ in the system.

          The most obvious is when there are Juveniles involved… but the list of other reasons is fairly short.

          Not ONE of those ‘legal’ reasons is “Because I don’t want anyone to see it”.

          And I’m not talking about all the ‘documents’ themselves being online. Most smaller courts don’t have the horsepower to do that.

          I’m talking about just the basic ‘court case docket’ itself.

          Even that basic information ( including some summation of the final ‘Judgement’ ) is SUPPOSED to be there.

          There are actually FDLE ( Federal Deparment of Law Enforcement ) requirements about that these days.

          All of these computer systems are ‘integrated’.

          It’s how a Police Officer in Muskogee, Oklahoma, can find out in a hearbeat if you have any outstanding warrants ( or other ‘Judgements’ against you ) that he needs to know about when he stops you for speeding.

          Mr. Bob Powers already mentioned this down below.

          Another example: It is VERY important to know if someone has a PO or an IAH against them already ‘abjudicated’ and decided in a Court of Law. In the case of the more serious PO… that person is usually NOT allowed to purchase a firearm as long as the PO is in effect.

          Well… if that case is ‘hidden from view’ even in the court system where it was decided… someone might pass a background check for the purchase of a firearm when they should NOT.

          For the ‘basics’ of an already ‘abjudicated’ case to be ‘hidden’ from even FDLE takes some pretty serious REASONS, these days.

          I think you get my point.

          I can understand the full set of DOCUMENTS ( Including the actual ORDER issued by the Judge ) not being ‘online’ in a Court System that is obviously already dedicated to fully updating their online records in almost real-time….

          …but for the actual ‘Case Docket Number’ itself to produce no information whatsoever in that same ‘modern’ online Court Reporting System is HIGHLY UNUSUAL… and might even be an active and ongoing violation of Arizona Law.

          Reply

          • Yes, I get your point. But in the real world, which I know does not include Prescott or Yavapai County, getting something sealed isn’t that easy and almost always includes informants, juveniles, or would compromise an ongoing investigation and I don’t see any of that in this case and it’s not like Joy doesn’t already know about it, so…?

            But…I also wouldn’t put anything past them, even f that does make me sound like a conspiracy theorist, as some of our detractors apparently think we are.

            Reply

  103. If Joy Appealed the ruling and it went to the Superior court level and was never actually in court because Joy could not afford a Lawyer. Then it is just sitting there with no official documents.

    The Lower court Protection order is still out there and may just be at the Sheriffs office and Police Office for the Jurisdiction of the Deployment site.

    If Joy dose not put the Order on a Blog site she is not Violating any thing to send it to any of her friends or Family including Investigators or Lawyers.

    There is also a way to search a persons Name for any court injunctions, Orders or Collection and Eviction Records. They could charge for the Info. But many collection agencies and Back ground checks go thru that process.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 22, 2015 at 7:49 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> If Joy Appealed the ruling and it went to the Superior court level and
      >> was never actually in court because Joy could not afford a Lawyer.
      >> Then it is just sitting there with no official documents.

      Correct. And ( as Gary pointed out ) if someone does not WANT the appeal to go forward… and there is no one to keep filing “Tick Tock… WAZ UP?… Tick Tock” legal motions in the case which the Appellate Court MUST respond to… then they can just let it sit there… and sit there… and sit there.

      That appears to be the case with this.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> The Lower court Protection order is still out there and may just be at the
      >> Sheriffs office and Police Office for the Jurisdiction of the Deployment site.

      Yes. According to Arizona Law, a COPY of the final ‘Order’ granting the “Injunction Against Harassment” and the ‘action items’ decided by the Judge are SUPPOSED to be ‘transmitted’ over to the Sheriff in the County where the ‘Order’ was granted.

      From Arizona’s own codified LAWS regarding “Injunctions Against Harassment”
      at the following URL…

      http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/12/01809.htm

      ———————————————————————–
      L. Each affidavit, acceptance or return of service shall be promptly filed with the clerk of the issuing court. This filing shall be completed in person, shall be made by fax or shall be postmarked, if sent by mail, no later than the end of the seventh court business day after the date of service. If the filing is made by fax, the original affidavit, acceptance or return of service shall be promptly filed with the court. Within twenty-four hours after the affidavit, acceptance or return of service has been filed, excluding weekends and holidays, the court from which the injunction or any modified injunction was issued shall forward to the sheriff of the county in which the court is located a copy of the injunction and a copy of the affidavit or certificate of service of process or acceptance of service. On receiving these copies, the sheriff shall register the injunction. Registration of an injunction means that a copy of the injunction and a copy of the affidavit or certificate of service of process or acceptance of service have been received by the sheriff’s office. The sheriff shall maintain a central repository for injunctions so that the existence and validity of the injunctions can be easily verified.
      ———————————————————————–

      So the Prescott Court System can ‘hide’ the case record from Public view… but the actual Order was SUPPOSED to have been ‘transmitted’ over to the Sheriff so that it shows up in whatever system THEY use to ‘look these things up’ if/when then need to.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> If Joy dose not put the Order on a Blog site she is not Violating any thing
      >> to send it to any of her friends or Family including Investigators or Lawyers.

      Also correct.

      But it’s also still just a ‘grey area’ when it comes to whether or not something has been ‘published’ ( these days )… or NOT.

      Most of the current ‘case law’ about ‘rights to privacy’ surrounding “Protective Orders” and/or “Injunctions Against Harassment” ( once they are actually SERVED on someone ) involve the PLAINTIFFS… and NOT the DEFENDANTS.

      The obvious case is in the ‘serious’ PO realm of Orders being issued because of domestic abuse. It is the PLAINTIFF’s privacy rights that are most often discussed about what should or should not be ‘public information’ once a signed order has been SERVED.

      But as for the DEFENDANT… even the Supreme Court can’t really decide about that.

      Example: There are some domestic abuse and women’s rights organizations around the country that are in the habit of exercising anyone’s right to obtain Court Records… and in the case of some repeat PO offenders… they are then just PUBLISHING all that information ( but only once a PO has been Served on that DEFENDANT ).

      And no one is really complaining about THAT, legally speaking.

      They leave out the name and address of the PLAINTIFF… but everything else about the case ends up getting PUBLISHED online so that everyone can see what happened, who said what in the Courtroom, and what the Judge’s decision really was

      I can’t emphasize enough, though, that even things like this are only being done these days AFTER the valid/signed PO has been SERVED on the DEFENDANT.

      Anyone can FILE a request for a PO.
      It might be total BULLSHIT.

      So obviously that ‘information’ should be withheld from the PUBLIC until the matter is actually DECIDED… and an actual ORDER has been issued ( and SERVED ) on the DEFENDANT.

      But once that happens… all applicable ‘Public Records’ and “Freedom of Information” laws kick in and the courts themselves are still struggling ( these days ) about where the ‘rights to privacy’ come head-to-head with the other equally important legal concept of “The Public’s Right To Know” what is happening in the Courtrooms they pay for.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> There is also a way to search a persons Name for any court injunctions,
      >> Orders or Collection and Eviction Records. They could charge for the Info.
      >> But many collection agencies and Back ground checks go thru that process.

      Yes… and in the case of actual ( serious ) “Protective Orders”… once these POs have been SERVED you better have a damn good reason for it not ‘showing up’ in online records or via FDLE searches.

      That’s because once you have the more serious “Protective Order” issued against you… you are usually NOT allowed to purchase a firearm… and a ‘background’ check on you better produce a ‘hit’ on that PO and stop a gun sale or someone has really “dropped the ball”.

      Obviously that last ‘example’ has nothing to do with what we are talking about here except for the fact that we now KNOW that a case which passed through the Prescott Court System and DID result in some kind of “Injunction Against Harassment” Order is NOT showing up in the online system of the Court where that case took place…

      …and there needs to be a pretty serious reason ( according to Arizona Open Records Laws ) WHY that is the case.

      Reply

  104. “WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    September 21, 2015 at 10:39 pm

    Reply to Gary Olson post on September 21, 2015 at 8:27 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> And originally I wasn’t thinking there was actually
    >> a “protective order”, I thought there was a hearing
    >> in order to prevent Joy from hiking out to the
    >> deployment site?

    The term ‘Protective Order’ can get confusing because the PO acronym for it also refers to ‘Injunctions against Harassment’.

    An ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ is not nearly as ‘serious’ as an actual Protective Order… but the frickin’ paperwork is the same.

    In fact… the actual online FORM sitting on the Prescott Municipal Court website for a ‘Protective Order’ is the EXACT same form you also use if you are only filing an ‘Injuction Against Harassment’.

    The only thing that makes this standard FORM either a PO or an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ is a CHECKBOX at the top of the form.

    All the other ‘fields’ of the form are the same and must be filled out regardless of whether it’s a real PO or just an IAH.

    You STILL have to give valid REASONS why the PO or IAH is being requested… and you better be RIGHT about what you say, because that document, once filed, is a legal affidavit and if you have ‘made anything up’ on it then you can most certainly be charged with “Filing a FALSE affidavit”.

    Bottom line here is that even though this action against Joy has been referred to as a ‘Protective Order’… I believe Amanda Marsh checked the box on the form that said “Injunction Against Harassment”.

    So at all times, then, this CASE was nothing but an “Injunction Against Harassment” and not a true “Protective Order Request”.

    But regardless of anything Amanda Marsh wrote on that original request form… it looks for all the world like the REAL intent of the whole charade was to just get in front of a Judge and have him issue some kind of ORDER to take away Joy’s HIKING rights.

    Again… here is the way Sonny described what happened in Judge Markham’s Prescott Municipal Courtroom at the ‘hearing’ which took place for this ‘case’…

    ———————————————————–
    On May 21, 2015 at 11:24 am, Sonny said…

    Referring to D. Willis, I see he certainly likes the limelight. He even showed up as a witness for the plaintiff in Markham’s court room, Prescott AZ, where Amanda wanted to gag order Joy and take away her hiking rights. To Darrell’s credit he did email Joy after and with no animosity wanted to continue communications. He did benefit though, more limelight and He got to meet Dr. Ted Putnam where everyone seemed amicable enough, except Amanda–at least in my perspective.
    —————————————————-

    I don’t even SEE Sonny describing anything in there related to any kind of ‘Harassment’ discussion… or the actual VALIDITY of anything Amanda Marsh had actually written on her original signed affidavit about ‘Harassment’ or ‘Fear for my person’.

    Sonny seems to say that once everyone was in front of the Judge… it was just all about trying to SHUT JOY UP and TAKE AWAY HER HIKING RIGHTS.

    A blatant abuse of the Court System?

    That’s also a crime.”

    Well…maybe this brings us back to where we started. I would think there would have been a recorder going even in a hearing like this and it sounds to me like there was a lot of testimony if Dr. Putnam and Darrell Willis were there? I am going to try and find out if a transcript is available from this Judge Markam’s court.

    Reply

  105. Sonny – Does Joy have a written verbatim record of everything everyone said at whatever hearing occurred that resulted in a court order being issued against her? Or do you know if such a record exists?

    Reply

  106. Well, tonight I am going to try and do something positive to obtain additional information that will further “our” investigation.

    Joy – Do you have an address you won’t mind publishing on this thread? If you do, I would like you to think about taking the lead in obtaining the transcript of the monkey hearing that banned you from the public land at and around the deployment site.

    At the Yavapai County Courthouse there exists a recording of every word that every person said at that hearing. And for a fee, I am going to guess about $400.00, we can pay the court reporter there to transcribe that recording into a certified written document. And then we can carefully review every word that every person said to see exactly why YOU are banned from state land that hundreds, if not thousands of people have every right to go to, at least according to the person who seems to running the show in Yavapai County…Mrs. Pfingston.

    I would like to suggest that our faithful readers send you a $5.00 bill to make this possible. I would then suggest that you send the transcript to WTKTT for analysis. I am especially interested in this experiment because I minored in Sociology at NAU, not because I was particularly interested in the subject, but because it sounded like it would be easier that Psychology and I needed something to go with my major, Police Science. This is also a good way to demonstrate my abilities as a manager and supervisor…I get to think up projects and assign them to other people to accomplish.

    In any case, I do think it would be interesting to see just what Darrell Willis, Amanda Marsh, Mrs. Pfingston and maybe a few others had to testify about when they were so confident that there would never be any accountability whatsoever for anything they waned to say in the Yavapai County Kangaroo Court.

    I say hundreds, if not thousands of people have access to the site because apparently we have all of the 19 families, which would include their extended families, their friends, sympathizers, supporters and miscellaneous guests in addition to hotshots, current and retired which I am quite sure would include all wildland and structural firefighters, active and retired and their guests, just as long as someone contacts several of the families and ask their permission to go out to public land that are being treated as private land.

    Thoughts anyone?

    Reply

    • I forgot to add that I will pay the difference between whatever Joy collects and however much the final transcript costs.

      Reply

      • The online ‘case lookup’ system for the Prescott Court System is here…

        http://71.216.160.127/csp/pcc/csp1.csp

        If you enter the last name of “Collura”… all you are ever going to see are two parking tickets issued to someone named “John Collura”.

        There is NO EVIDENCE ( online ) that this original case was ever officially in the Prescott Court System at all.

        Zero. Zip. Nada.

        There is also no online evidence of the actual ‘protective order’ itself which ( once it has been decided there is one in effect ) is SUPPOSED to be a matter of ‘Public Record’.

        But yet… even with no online/public evidence this case ever happened… they HAVE acknowledged it ‘happened’ by actually fulfilling the $25 request for a transcript.

        Very, very strange.

        Reply

        • that is Joy’s husband; John.

          We were told this case would not be online and any person wanting transcripts had to go in person to obtain it.

          $25,00

          Joy is on court order not discuss anything during order of protection pertaining to the widow of Eric.

          Joy is squeaky clean in her record.

          Reply

          • Reply to Sonny post on September 21, 2015 at 8:17 pm

            >> Sonny said…
            >>
            >> that is Joy’s husband; John.

            Ah, okay. I see.

            >> Sonny also said…
            >>
            >> We were told this case would not be online

            By WHO, Sonny?

            What was the name of the person who told you this?

            Just some clerk in some office?

            >> Sonny also said…
            >>
            >> and any person wanting transcripts had to go in person
            >> to obtain it. $25,00

            If the records for this particular case are being withheld outside the normal access channels as per the Arizona Open Records Laws… then there also has to be a signed ORDER from the Judge that that is what is supposed to happen.

            Some clerk behind a desk can’t just make that decision.

            It actually wouldn’t surprise me at all if the paperwork for this ‘case’ has never actually been entered into the ‘official’ system at all.

            Let me tell you a quick story which proves that is a possibility.

            One of my past business partners in Colorado was being ‘harassed’ by someone who thought he was owed some money.

            The man was friends with a Colorado Judge… and my partner answered his door one day and faced two large Samoans who were trying to ‘serve’ him with a ‘court order’ for him to pay the man the money he thought he was owed.

            My partner took the papers… but then went right down to the courthouse.

            The paperwork had a case number AND the Judge’s signature.

            The clerk looked at the signature and said… “Well… yes… that is his signature… but I’m sorry… there is no such case number in the system”.

            The guy who was harassing my partner just got ahold of the official court papers, filled them out himself, and then got his friend the Judge to sign it and order the usual ‘Samoan Summons Service’ to deliver the paperwork to my partner as if it was real.

            But the case number was ‘fake’.
            It was never actually created or filed at all.

            The guy thought it would be enough to just SCARE my partner into paying him what he thought he was owed.

            He never got a dime.

            And nothing ever happened to the Judge, either, even though my partner filed an official complaint.

            >> Sonny also said…
            >>
            >> Joy is on court order not discuss anything during order
            >> of protection pertaining to the widow of Eric.

            I understand. The ‘widow of Eric’ was the one who filed the (supposed) harassment charges in the first place.

            I’m still just wondering how that turned into a DO NOT HIKE somewhere order as well.

            Did THAT part of the ‘order’ just come out of whatever the heck it was Darrell Willis ended up saying ( as hearsay ) in that courtroom?

            >> Sonny also said…
            >>
            >> Joy is squeaky clean in her record.

            And she should remain that way.

            She doesn’t need any more bullshit than she’s already ( needlessly ) had to endure.

            Reply

            • I don’t want Joy to discuss anything with me about Eric Marsh or Amanda Marsh, I just want to see the transcript from the hearing that resulted in a court order being issued. I can arrive at m own conclusions.

              Reply

              • The case number you found ( P-1300-CV-201500154 ) is definitely the right one… but that is actually a Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court Case number.

                It looks like that is the case number for an APPEAL of the ‘Lower Court Ruling’, but NOT the original case number for whatever ‘Lower’ court it was where the case was originally heard/decided.

                The original case was heard/decided by this infamous Prescott Judge Arthur Markham.

                His online BIO says…
                Judge Arthur Markham is the Prescott Justice of the Peace as well as the Prescott City Magistrate.

                So he is a Prescott CITY Judge… but because of an IGA agreement with Yavapai County I guess he could also be considered a ‘Yavapai County Judge’.

                But that by no means makes him a ‘Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court’ Judge… which is where this case number is now showing up.

                Sonny himself described a bit of what went on at the hearing in the ‘lower court’ ( Prescott Municipal Court ).

                It was back in Chapter XIV ( Chapter 14 )…
                —————————————————
                On May 21, 2015 at 11:24 am, Sonny said…

                Referring to D. Willis, I see he certainly likes the limelight. He even showed up as a witness for the plaintiff in Markham’s court room, Prescott AZ, where Amanda wanted to gag order Joy and take away her hiking rights. To Darrell’s credit he did email Joy after and with no animosity wanted to continue communications. He did benefit though, more limelight and He got to meet Dr. Ted Putnam where everyone seemed amicable enough, except Amanda–at least in my perspective.
                —————————————————

                So Sonny confirms the original Judge WAS this ‘Markham’ guy… but AFAICT he is NOT a ‘Yavapai Country SUPERIOR Court’ Judge.

                So there’s still this issue where the ORIGINAL case is not showing up in the ‘Lower Court’ where it took place.

                It only seems to be REAL in this ‘Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court’ case record… which appears to be some kind of APPEAL of the original decision that is still ‘in progress’?

                ( No DISPOSITION date on this court record ).

                Notice above that regardless of what Amanda Marsh’s original ‘complaint’ was… the minute she got in front of the Judge it was about trying to get the Judge to take away Joy’s HIKING rights.

                So maybe it really is true.

                Whatever A. Marsh’s original ‘complaint’ was that got her in front of the Judge… the GOAL all along was to just get there and then try to convince the Judge to take away HIKING rights…

                …and maybe all because of Deborah Pfingston’s ballistic reaction to who might get near the ‘site’. without HER permission.

                Reply

                • Notice also in that ‘Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court’ case lookup… THAT system actually has the following explanation right on the screen about what cases *might* not be showing up.

                  Their own text verfies that the only reason a PO ( Protection Order or Injunction Against Harassment Order ) might not appear is because the signed Order hasn’t been SERVED on the defendant yet.

                  That’s actually standard. Judicial case history across the country has proven that very BAD things can happen if someone finds out there’s a PO headed their way BEFORE it’s actually been SERVED on them, so the Police can then be called for violations.

                  That ‘case search’ page says…

                  ————————————————-
                  The following case types are excluded from search results: sealed cases, cases involving un-served Orders of Protection, mental health and probate cases, victim and witness data. Juvenile incorrigible/delinquency case information also cannot be viewed on this website.
                  ————————————————–

                  But once a signed PO or Injunction Against Harrassment Order HAS been ‘Served’… it is SUPPOSED to appear.

                  And that applies to the lower court where this case was originally heard/decided by this Judge Markham guy as well as this case now showing up in ‘Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court’.

                  Bottom line here is that whoever down in Prescott Municipal Court wanted to keep this entire case from not showing up online forgot to sent the ‘memo’ up to ‘Yavapai County Superior Court’.

                  So any valid Arizona Open Records request to see the documents associated with THIS YCSC case number P-1300-CV-201500154 *should* produce all the same original documents from the ‘lower’ court ( Markham’s Courtroom ).

                  Reply

        • From past experience I know you have to query these systems different ways, when I searched under Amanda Marsh I came up with this number, although it sounds like Joy already has the transcript.

          P-1300-CV-201500154

          OK…how about this idea. ANYBODY who lives near Prescott can go to the courthouse and get a copy of the transcript. Let’s leave Joy out of it. Once you have it, email me and I will send you my address and you can send it to me and I will analyze the fucking thing. I won’t do as good as job as WTKTT but I will find the high points.

          From my experience, they cost more than $25.00, so maybe that is because Joy was the defendant, I don’t know? But in any case, if somebody will go get it, I will pay for it. I know they won’t send me one.

          After I have thought about it some more, I have decided there very may well be some insight into the role Christian Fundamentalism played on the GMIHC since those testifying would have felt they were in a friendly environment that they controlled and they may have spoken freely which they are unlikely to do anywhere else at this point.

          It is a PUBLIC RECORD and unless it was sealed by the judge, which I can’t imagine why it would have been, no informants, no minors etc. it should be available to anyone to get for a fee.

          Reply

          • I just found the same number under Joy’s name, but yes, it is for some kind of “receipt” for something from a lower court, which I guess it a protective order, still doesn’t make any sense to me.

            P-1300-CV-201500154

            Reply

            • That’s the right case number.

              But… something very curious here.

              What APPEARS to have happened here is that this ‘case’ ended up being bumped UP from Prescott Municipal Court to Yavapai County Court… and it happened on February 19, 2015.

              This is confusing… because this looks for all the world like an APPEAL of the case ( now entering the Yavapai District Court system ) that was decided in the lower ( Municipal ) Court. This record shows that case being transferred UP to Yavapai District Court and the ‘plaintiff (Marsh) / defendant(Collura)’ are now being referred to as the ‘appellee(Marsh) / appellant(Collura).

              As in…

              JOY ANN COLLURA: APPELLANT – A 1
              AMANDA BENO MARSH: APPELLEE – B 1

              Legal definitions…

              APPELLANT
              A person who applies to a higher court for a reversal of the decision of a lower court.

              APPELLEE
              A party who has won a judgment in a lawsuit or favorable findings in an administrative proceeding, which judgment or findings the losing party, the appellant, seeks to have a higher court reverse or set aside.

              Notice that there is no JUDGE’S NAME being listed.

              Very unusual.

              There is also no recorded DISPOSITION DATE, even though there appears to have been some kind of ‘order’ issued on April 17, 2015 ( as per the case history transferred UP from lower Prescott Municipal Court ).

              That means that (supposedly) there has NOT actually been a DISPOSITION at all. The case is still ‘pending’?

              Also very unusual.

              Below are the results from entering ‘Amanda Marsh’ into the Arizona Courts records system at the following URL ( after getting through the ‘captcha’ thing on the home page )…

              https://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/caselookup.aspx?AspxAutoDetectCookieSupport=1

              —————————————————————-
              Case Number: P-1300-CV-201500154

              Title: AMANDA BENO MARSH VS. JOY A. COLLURA
              Category: Civil
              Court: Yavapai County Superior
              Filing Date: 2/19/2015
              Judge: ( NO ENTRY )
              Disposition Date: ( NO ENTRY )

              JOY ANN COLLURA: APPELLANT – A 1
              AMANDA BENO MARSH: APPELLEE – B 1

              Case Activity

              Date / Description / Party
              4/23/2015 NOTICE: AND ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF RECEIPT A 1
              4/17/2015 ORDER: Order A 1
              2/20/2015 NOTICE: Notice A 1
              2/19/2015 NOTICE: TRANSMITTAL OF RECORD FROM LOWER COURT A 1
              —————————————————————-

              Reply

              • First—–Joy is entitled to and required to have a complete copy of all court proceedings and an official order that is SOP.

                Joy should have been served with the official Restraining order which states all of the Things she is restricted from doing.

                The strange thing here is the Case number which is assigned at the beginning of any case goes thru the entire court proceedings even if it went to the County Records.

                As a Patrolperson with Police and Sheriffs when a person is run who was Stopped for Speeding Etc. The dispatch will come back with any current Restraining orders and all info as well as any current Warrants That is also SOP.
                So there is either a restraining order or there is not.

                Bottom line Joy should have a copy and I believe she sent me one way back. that is not a violation to share the order she is free to do so.

                Reply

    • Joy has a copy of the transcript but can not share until Jan 2016. It was only $25 and they will not mail one. We were told it had to be picked up in person.

      Reply

      • That’s because this entire case ( and associated paperwork/records ) could be ‘off the reservation’ and just sitting a drawer somewhere in the Prescott Court House.

        There is still NO EVIDENCE in Prescott’s own online Court Case lookup system ( which does, in fact, update every few days ) that this ‘Hearing’ ever took place OR that any kind of legal ‘order’ was EVER issued against someone named “Joy Collura”.

        According to Arizona Law… if an ‘order of protection’ is ever officially granted ( as was apparently the case here… for a duration of 1 year )… it is SUPPOSED to then be a matter of PUBLIC record.

        ‘Protective orders’ don’t have to show up UNTIL they are ‘official’… for obvious reasons. Usually they are REAL and SERIOUS… and you obviously don’t want someone finding out they are having a protective order issued against them until it’s ‘official’ ( Signed/Ordered by a Judge ) so that the Police can then respond to any related complaints and they now have ‘arrest’ authority for any violations of that ‘protective order’.

        As you can imagine… bad things can ( and HAVE ) happened when the defendant(s) targeted by a request for a ‘protective order’ have found out it was ‘in progress’. That’s why there ARE special laws regarding the issuance of ‘protective orders’ and when they become a matter of public record.

        But once they ARE ‘official’ ( Signed/ordered by a Judge ), even Arizona ‘Open Records’ laws say they must then be a matter of public record.

        And also according to Arizona Open Records laws… if that court system uses an electronic filing system ( Prescott DOES )… then it is ALSO supposed to be accessible online in a timely fashion.

        Something has always stink/stank’/stunk about this entire Amanda Marsh / Darrell Wills / Unnamed Others, et. al. business…

        …and the stench is STILL “in the room”.

        Maybe it really WAS just all about Deborah Pfingston going bat-shit crazy about the whole ‘psychics possibly hiking the area’ thing… and the whole ‘protection order’ affair was just a gigantic RUSE to just ‘get in front of a Judge’ and convince him to issue a DO NOT HIKE order.

        I’d really, really like to know how some (supposed) charges about ‘harassment’ filed in a valid Court affidavit by Amanda Marsh ended up resulting in a “DO NOT HIKE” order from a Judge?

        What in the hell did one actually have to do with the other?

        ( Unless that was the just the desired end-result in the first place ).

        Reply

        • None of this makes any sense to me. A protective order should protect wherever Amanda Marsh is (within so many feet) or could reasonably be, her home, her workplace, her favorite restaurants, etc. I would be shocked if they extended it to hundreds of acres of public land? But who the fuck knows, we are talking about Yavapai County.

          Reply

          • And originally I wasn’t thinking there was actually a “protective order”, I thought there was a hearing in order to prevent Joy from hiking out to the deployment site?

            Reply

            • A hearing that resulted in a court order preventing Joy from hiking in that area. What the fuck does Joy agreeing to take a psychic out to the deployment site have to do with Amanda Marsh feeling threatened for God’s (God will understand, he is pissed off too) sake?

              Reply

              • I just found the same number under Joy’s name, but yes, it is for some kind of “receipt” for something from a lower court, which I guess it a protective order, still doesn’t make any sense to me.

                P-1300-CV-201500154

                Reply

                • So…shouldn’t we still be talking about an actual transcript? Is that what Joy has Sonny? A verbatim written record of everything everyone said at the court proceeding that resulted in whatever kind of order Joy was served?

                  Reply

                • The only thing in the Prescott Court System relating to Amanda Marsh ( at ANY time ) is the following ‘small claims court’ judgement in October of 2012…

                  Marsh vs. Goldman

                  http://71.216.160.127/csp/pcc/csp4.csp?MARSH,AMANDA&DKT=201206018J&REP=9&TOT=96

                  ——————————————
                  10/5/2012
                  THIS MATTER WAS HEARD by the Court on Fri Oct. 5, 2012 as a Default Hearing. Appearing in person was (were) Amanda Marsh, Plaintiff Not appearing was (were) Lee Goldman, Defendant Plaintiff(s) Amanda Marsh, Plaintiff is (are) sworn and presents testimony. Judgement is entered by the court on Fri Oct. 5, 2012. Judgment is entered for Plaintiff upon Default of the Defendant and request for judgment With hearing. Judgment for $220.00, attorney fees of $0.00, costs of $83.30 and accruing costs, plus interest of 4.25% per annum until paid.
                  ———————————————–

                  Reply

                  • No, go here, and then go inside the

                    system,http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/publicaccess/

                    enter Marsh, and then Amanda

                    and then this number will show up

                    P-1300-CV-201500154

                    click on this number and then a date of 2/19/15 will show up with limited info. You could enter the case number but it is easier to enter the name. The same info shows up under Joy’s name. I am looking under

                    Clerk of the Yavapai Superior Court – case search

                    Reply

                    • To make it easier to find, select just Yavapai Superior Court for the court to search, otherwise you go into a state wide data base.

                    • Gotcha. I found it. See other post above.

                      This P-1300-CV-201500154 case number is definitely the ‘same’ case… but ( as it says in the record itself ) that is now a ‘Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court’ case number.

                      This record looks for all the world like an APPEAL coming up from the lower Prescott or Yavapai county DISTRICT Court to the SUPERIOR Court.

                      The plaintiff ( Marsh ) / defendant ( Collura ) are now being specifically referred to up here in Yavapai County SUPERIOR Court as appellee ( Marsh ) / appellant ( Collura ).

                      There is also no JUDGE or DISPOSITION entered into this particuar ‘APPEAL’ case number… as if it is all still ‘pending’, or something.

                      Curiouser and curiouser.

                      So now we see a SUPERIOR court record ( possibly an APPEAL ) for this case… but still nothing showing up down in the lower courts where the case was actually originally heard/decided?

                    • I don’t understand it. It probably makes sense to somebody used to dealing with protective orders. It may have been heard at a lower court and then transferred up for storage. I don’t know? Don’t we have any attorneys out there monitoring our experiment in social media, except for EN that is?

                    • Reply to Gary Olson post on
                      September 21, 2015 at 9:45 pm

                      >> Gary Olson said…
                      >>
                      >> I don’t understand it. It probably
                      >> makes sense to somebody used
                      >> to dealing with protective orders.

                      See other post below. The term PO can also be used to refer to just a simpler “Injunction Against Harassment”

                      I believe Amanda Marsh ‘checked that box’ on the PO application form and so this case was never anything but a request for an “Injunction Against Harassment”.

                      But that still doesn’t “lower the bar” for having to tell the frickin’ TRUTH on the application.

                      Whether it’s a real PO or just an IAH… you still have to have valid REASONS for requesting it and if you are making anything up on that FORM… you are “Filing a FALSE affidavit”.

                      >> Gary Olson also said…
                      >>
                      >> It may have been heard at a lower
                      >> court and then transferred up for
                      >> storage.

                      It’s possible… but the specific use of the terms ‘appellant’ and ‘appellee’ on that Court record seems to indicate it can’t be anything but an official APPEAL of the lower court ( Judge Markham’s Prescott Courtroom ) decision.

                      Bottom line here is that whoever down in Prescott Municipal Court wanted to keep this entire case from not showing up online forgot to send the ‘memo’ up to ‘Yavapai County Superior Court’.

                      So any valid Arizona Open Records request to see the documents associated with THIS YCSC case number P-1300-CV-201500154 *should* produce all the same original documents from the ‘lower’ court ( Markham’s Courtroom ).

            • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 21, 2015 at 8:27 pm

              >> Gary Olson said…
              >>
              >> And originally I wasn’t thinking there was actually
              >> a “protective order”, I thought there was a hearing
              >> in order to prevent Joy from hiking out to the
              >> deployment site?

              The term ‘Protective Order’ can get confusing because the PO acronym for it also refers to ‘Injunctions against Harassment’.

              An ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ is not nearly as ‘serious’ as an actual Protective Order… but the frickin’ paperwork is the same.

              In fact… the actual online FORM sitting on the Prescott Municipal Court website for a ‘Protective Order’ is the EXACT same form you also use if you are only filing an ‘Injuction Against Harassment’.

              The only thing that makes this standard FORM either a PO or an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’ is a CHECKBOX at the top of the form.

              All the other ‘fields’ of the form are the same and must be filled out regardless of whether it’s a real PO or just an IAH.

              You STILL have to give valid REASONS why the PO or IAH is being requested… and you better be RIGHT about what you say, because that document, once filed, is a legal affidavit and if you have ‘made anything up’ on it then you can most certainly be charged with “Filing a FALSE affidavit”.

              Bottom line here is that even though this action against Joy has been referred to as a ‘Protective Order’… I believe Amanda Marsh checked the box on the form that said “Injunction Against Harassment”.

              So at all times, then, this CASE was nothing but an “Injunction Against Harassment” and not a true “Protective Order Request”.

              But regardless of anything Amanda Marsh wrote on that original request form… it looks for all the world like the REAL intent of the whole charade was to just get in front of a Judge and have him issue some kind of ORDER to take away Joy’s HIKING rights.

              Again… here is the way Sonny described what happened in Judge Markham’s Prescott Municipal Courtroom at the ‘hearing’ which took place for this ‘case’…

              ———————————————————–
              On May 21, 2015 at 11:24 am, Sonny said…

              Referring to D. Willis, I see he certainly likes the limelight. He even showed up as a witness for the plaintiff in Markham’s court room, Prescott AZ, where Amanda wanted to gag order Joy and take away her hiking rights. To Darrell’s credit he did email Joy after and with no animosity wanted to continue communications. He did benefit though, more limelight and He got to meet Dr. Ted Putnam where everyone seemed amicable enough, except Amanda–at least in my perspective.
              —————————————————-

              I don’t even SEE Sonny describing anything in there related to any kind of ‘Harassment’ discussion… or the actual VALIDITY of anything Amanda Marsh had actually written on her original signed affidavit about ‘Harassment’ or ‘Fear for my person’.

              Sonny seems to say that once everyone was in front of the Judge… it was just all about trying to SHUT JOY UP and TAKE AWAY HER HIKING RIGHTS.

              A blatant abuse of the Court System?

              That’s also a crime.

              Reply

  107. **
    ** JESUS – THE MOVIE

    Reply to Gary Olson post on September 19, 2015 at 12:54 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> So…now we know WTKTT recent pattern.. He is reading this posts somewhere in
    >> transit but doesn’t have the time or battery power to respond

    Correct… but finally got near some good WiFi this evening, so here’s some thoughts on the conversation down below.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> but I am looking forward to hearing from him since the religion factor has
    >> been his (most?) favorite bone to chew on and what he has referred to as
    >> the “third rail” of this discussion.

    I wouldn’t exactly call it a ‘bone to chew’… but yes… I am on record as saying that anyone who really wants to understand the ‘Human Factors’ that led 19 civil servants to walk into a deathtrap where most of their own colleagues agree they wouldn’t have gone in a million years needs to understand the ‘evangelical’ envelope that group was operating in/under.

    It’s not a ‘bone’ at all. It’s just REALITY… and part of the EVIDENCE.

    There was a VERY strong ‘evangelical/religious’ component going on in what should have otherwise been ( and normally is REQUIRED to be ) a State/Federal taxpayer-dollar supported ‘religion neutral’ workplace.

    When a taxpayer-paid fire official stands at a site of 19 deaths for the first press conference and offers as one of the OFFICIAL explanations for the tragedy that some ‘imaginary friend’ of his had a plan for it to happen the way it did…

    …then that (alone) STILL deserves to be ‘discussed’.

    >> Gary Olson also said…
    >>
    >> Correction – I shouldn’t have called the Pfingston email a “smoking gun” because
    >> I think our definition of a smoking gun would be proof that someone (Able, Willis,
    >> Musser or someone else) in position of power over Marsh ordered him to take his
    >> crew out of the black and attempt such a reckless tactical maneuver of trying
    >> to beat the train.
    >>
    >> I should have referred to the Pfingston email as the “missing link” because I believe it
    >> provides the missing link in the human factors category that most of us has believed
    >> has existed all along ever since we listed to Pastor Bishop Reverend High Priest Darrell
    >> Willis spout his ridiculous theories out at the deployment site about why the GMIHC died.

    There is really no question that Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, Deborah Pfingston, wasn’t all that concerned with who or who was not ‘hiking’ somewhere down in Yarnell for the better part of a year.

    It is perfectly obvious that what made Deborah Pfingston go absolutely bat-shit crazy was when she heard that some ‘psychics’ were interested in hiking the area.

    That was her ‘trip-wire’… and that’s when she went ballistic and started quoting Leviticus and ( for lack of a better phrase ) God-all-what-else.

    The MYSTERY remains how we got from Deborah Pfingston’s obvious motivation of “I’ll do anything to keep psychics and mediums and other ungodly creatures away from where my son died” to the actual ‘restraining order’ that was served on poor Joy A. Collura.

    Remember… you can forget all references to stuff like “Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor”… there is still this little thing annoying thing called the LAW and something called “Filing a false affadavit”.

    In Arizona… it’s still a class 2 misdemeanor ( or even a class 3 if the Judge is really pissed off ) which can carry both heavy fines AND ‘jail time’.

    So was Deborah Pfingston’s ballistic piss-off regarding the news about some people who wanted to hike the area the actual underlying CAUSE of all this consternation directed against poor Joy Collura?

    Did Amanda Marsh really believe someone like Joy Colura posed any kind of actual THREAT to her… and they decided THAT would be a good way to just ‘get in front of a Judge’ and then turn the whole proceeding into “Do Not Hike” hearing?

    I still don’t know how that even got in front of a Judge since there has to be some pretty damn serious EVIDENCE presented to even ASK for a ‘Protective Order’… and in Arizona it’s almost impossible to pull that off if you are not talking about a direct family member.

    And was ‘Deborah Pfingston’ ( and her now red-hot concerns about ‘psychics’ ) one of the ‘unnamed others’ that Darrel Willis acually waltzed into that courtroom ‘on behalf of’ and spewed his absolutely inadmissible ‘hearsay’ testimony over?

    If ANY of the ‘reasons’ that Amanda Marsh was required to ‘list’ in her request for that protective order turn out to be ‘made up’ because of some other hidden agenda… OR if anything Darrell Willis said in court was just ‘made up bullshit’… then that is truly “Filing a FALSE affadavit” and/or “Providing FALSE testimony in a Court of Law”… and BOTH of those things are a bona-fide CRIME.

    As for Pfingston… it really does just always astound me how concerned people get about whether or not their own ‘imaginary friends’ are the same ‘imaginary friends’ that other people who have ‘imaginary friends’ are imagining… and whether others should have the same rights they do to ‘talk’ to their own ‘imaginary friends’, or not.

    This is also the same woman who first ‘imagined’ it would be appropriate to have life-like over-sized BRONZE STATUES of all the Hotshots lining the path to the deployment site… and who tried to make her own movie about JESUS in 2009. ( See below ).

    I don’t have all the time in the world this evening so here ( in no particular order ) are some other tidbits of information that ‘relate’ to this ongoing “Human Factors” story which, I believe, now ( and has always? ) involved both the BEFORE, the DURING, and the AFTERMATH of this horrible tragedy in Yarnell.

    It may take a few ‘Replies’ to get these through since there are multiple ‘links’ involved.

    ** JESUS – THE MOVIE

    In 2009, Deborah Pfingston tried to produce a move about Jesus that she wrote along with Prescott filmmaker Jesse Lopez, who was a childhood friend of her son, Andrew Aschcraft.

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    Article Title: Filmmakers seek actors for movie that puts Christ in the 21st century
    Published: 7/30/2009 9:04:00 PM
    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=74&subsectionID=109&articleID=70848

    ——————————————————————————–
    PHOTO: Filmmaker Jesse Lopez and screenwriter Deboarah Pfingston)
    PHOTO CAPTION: Courtesy photo Filmmaker Jesse Lopez and screenwriter
    Deborah Pfingston have issued a casting call for their movie. Karen Despain

    Two aspiring film producers who ask, “Would God be different if he wore a pair of jeans instead of a tunic?” are looking for a cast for their movie, “The World Changed.”

    The relationship between these Prescott residents that led to the project began many years ago.

    Scriptwriter Deborah Pfingston’s son, Andrew Ashcraft, and filmmaker Jesse Lopez have been friends since childhood. When the two boys were young, they made films, many full of “goofy stunts,” using VHS movie cameras and hand-held camcorders – “kid stuff,” as Pfingston said.

    Even though Andrew and Jesse are now adults, the family friendship has endured. And when Lopez, a Prescott High School graduate, returned from a year of study at the Zaki Gordon Institute for Independent Filmmaking in Sedona, he and

    Pfingston soon after found themselves in profound discussions about Scripture. This ignited Lopez’s desire to follow Pfingston’s spirituality and become a Christian.

    These conversations then planted the seeds for “The World Changed” when the two decided to collaborate in writing a script for a movie they want to film.

    The movie’s storyline is a Christian faith-based dramatization of how the 21st century would react if Jesus hadn’t arrived 2,000 years ago but instead showed up today at a local coffee house and worked in a blue-collar trade.

    The script is complete and Lopez has scouted the movie’s locations throughout Prescott, including Watson Lake and downtown. “You cannot deny the beauty of downtown for filming,” said Pfingston, who has lived here more than 20 years.

    Pfingston and Lopez have issued a couple of casting calls, but no one has shown any interest. However, they have not given up on their project and have decided to produce a 10-minute short, “The World Changed – Peter’s Story.” The short is an excerpt from the movie and is less of a commitment for the actors, Pfingston said. In this portion of the story, Peter is a farmer and the excerpt tells of his journey from meeting Christ to putting his faith into action.

    “Peter’s Story” needs five to eight men ages 18 to 45. Roles include Peter, Christ, John, Andrew, Peter’s wife, two religious leaders and some extras.

    Pfingston and Lopez hope to enter this excerpt in film festivals, post it on the web and attract additional money so that they can make “The World Changed” in its entirety. The cast for the movie is much larger, with roles for mostly men ages 25 to 30 and some for women ages 18 to 30. All would be volunteers, since Pfingston and Lopez are not producing the film for profit. They want to make it available to festivals, churches, Bible studies and other small groups, along with putting it on the Internet.

    They will conduct two casting calls in August at the First Baptist Church on the corner of Cortez and Goodwin streets.

    The first session is from 6 to 7 p.m. on Friday Aug. 14, and the second is from 6 to 7 p.m. on Friday, Aug. 28. People who want to audition should use the church entrance on Cortez Street.

    “We want people to see what Scripture really is and that it’s relevant,” Pfingston said of the movie making venture. “It’s the story of wonderful people who affect our lives today.”

    Pfingston is graduate admissions coordinator at Embry-Riddle Aeronautical University. Lopez is floor director for AZTV’s AM Arizona.

    For more information and updates about “The World Changed,” visit the project’s web-site at the w-w-w.theworldchangedmovie.com.
    ——————————————————————————–

    ( Continued next Reply )…

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 19, 2015 at 12:54 pm ( CONTINUED )…

      I probably forgot to mention this straight away up above… but I don’t believe Deborah Pfingston is, herself, a ‘Mormon’.

      Her son Andrew ‘converted’ to the Mormon faith in order to marry… but I don’t think his mother did as well.

      I’m not sure what ‘smoke and flavor’ of the myriad variations of ‘Christianity’ Deborah Pfingston is a card-carrying member of… but something tells me she’s not setting her TIVO recorder to catch any of the many broadcasts of the Roman Catholic Pope’s visit to America this week.

      It would seem she leans towards one of the heavy ‘evangelical’ or ‘born again’ variations.

      The announcements for the AUDITONS for the movie she wrote about Jesus in 2009 were going to take place at some ‘Baptist’ church… but that doesn’t mean she, herself, ascribes to the whole ‘Baptist’ flavor, either. That might have just been the room she could book for the auditions.

      Let me also say that none of this is meant to be any kind of ‘attack’ against Deborah Pfringston. She, herself, has chosen to make HERSELF and integral part of the STORY of what happened following the Yarnell Hill tragedy and, as such, her possible motivations and/or actions in pursuit of her own agenda are ‘fair game’ for public discussion.

      There’s the ‘A’ word again.

      AGENDAS. Everybody seems to have one in this ‘story’.

      Continuing on with the ‘tidbits’… here’s something that is not a ‘news flash’ but it fits right into the thread. It’s just one more confirmation that someone who used to work for Granite Mountain might have be a little ‘Bible Thumped’…. but felt right at home working for the Granite Mountain Hotshot organization.

      ** EX-GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT – BRANDON BUNCH

      When Kyle Dickman published his book “The Burning Edge” about the Granite Mountain Hotshots, Dickman confirmed that most of what he printed about what it was like to ‘ride’ with Granite Mountain came from Brendan McDonough and just TWO other former GM Hotshots… Brandon Bunch and Renan Packer.

      Renan Packer is the one who had to leave the GM organization because he had a seizure on the 2013 Thompson fire… and Brandon Bunch also left GM immediately following the 2013 Thompson Ridge fire… but for family related reasons.

      Brandon Bunch had been with the Granite Mountain Hotshots for 4 years but had to leave the organization just a few months before the tragedy because that is what was going to better for his family.

      When Brendan McDonough recently issued his version of public ‘Press Release’ on his public Facebook page about his recent invitation to give a speech to a National Guard Unit, former Granite Mountain Hotshot Brandon Bunch left comments on Brendan’s public posting.

      Brandon’s PUBLIC Facebook page is here…

      https://www.facebook.com/people/Brandon-Bunch/1251622072?hc_location=ufi

      His public Facebook ‘About’ page says…

      Lives in Prescott, Arizona
      Went to Prescott High School
      Current Occupation: owner/operator/climber at Bunch Tree Care ( Tree Service ).
      Past Occupation: Granite Mountain Interangency Hotshot crew ( Put out forest fires ).

      As of September 15, 2015, the top-level banner image on his public Facebook Home page was a picture of an open Bible with verses underlined by hand.

      The verse underlined by hand with a GREEN pen says…

      “You cannot serve both God and Money”.

      The verse underlined by hand with a BLACK pen says…

      “Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life… etc.”

      On his PUBLIC ‘Favorite Books’ Facebook page… there is only 1 book listed…

      “The Bible”.

      In the initial chapter entitled “The Perfect Profession”, author Kyle Dickman confirmed that when the 2013 season started… Brandon Buch was still an active member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and was starting his fourth seasion with that organization.

      It’s the same paragraph(s) where Dickman confirmed that crew members such as Clayton Whitted (quote) “brought church to the fireline”, and the passage where Marsh told newbie Dustin Deford to “sit the fuck down”…

      From Kyle Dickman’s book “The Burning Edge”…
      ————————————————————————————————
      It was good to see some of the veterans back. Some of the hotshots had worked as seasonal employees under Marsh since he took over as Granite Mountain’s superintendent in 2006. There was Brandon Bunch, the laconic former bull rider who was starting his fourth season with Granite Mountain, and Andrew Ashcraft, an active member of the Mormon church, who was still sporting his well-­groomed mustache. At twenty-­nine, he had the looks of a Top Gun pilot and four kids. Marsh was in the process of converting Ashcraft to a permanent employee, but for the time being, the paperwork was caught in bureaucratic limbo. For the third year, Ashcraft was officially returning as a seasonal employee.

      Marsh introduced himself and asked the crew’s full-time firefighters to do the same. Known collectively as the overhead, these seven hotshots commanded Granite Mountain. Jesse Steed, thirty-­six, was the captain, the number two in command. People called Jesse the picture-­perfect hotshot, and the ex-­Marine, who was six-­four and more than 220 pounds, never disputed the point. Beside Jesse sat the crew’s three squad bosses: Travis Carter, thirty-­one, who was a walk-­on football player at the University of Arizona and still looked the part; Clayton Whitted, twenty-­seven, a former youth pastor who brought church to the fire line; and Robert Caldwell, twenty-­three, a Prescott local with an IQ high enough to merit his acceptance in Mensa. The final two overhead were lead firefighters Chris MacKenzie, thirty, a California-­born longtime hotshot with such a laid-­back demeanor that his crewmantes often compared him to the Dude in The Big Lebowski, and Travis Turbyfill, twenty-seven, a moose-­size man who had seen combat in Afghanistan as a Marine and was a gifted mechanic.

      “Tell us about yourselves,” Marsh said to the crew. Most of them didn’t know one another and didn’t want to speak.

      Marsh’s way of dealing with their shyness was to force his men to get over it. “Give us your name, how many years you’ve fought fire, and something . . . your favorite color, whatever you’d like,” he said.

      At twenty, Grant McKee was the youngest guy on the crew. He played it cocky, standing, saying his name, and coolly explained that his cousin was Bob Caldwell, one of the squad bosses. It didn’t go so easily for all the new guys.

      “Dustin DeFord,” said a redheaded rookie who sat near Grant. “My favorite color is”—­DeFord paused for a second—­

      “black. It reminds me of fire.”

      “That’s nice, Dustin,” Marsh said. “Thank you. Now please sit the fuck down.”
      ———————————————————————————-

      ( Continued next Reply )…

      Reply

      • Followup to the ‘Brandon Bunch’ tidbit up above…

        Just 2 weeks after the tragedy, Brandon Bunch’s aunt Vickie Stuart left a PUBLIC comment on a PUBLIC Blog posting saying her nephew had left the Granite Mountain Hotshots only DAYS before the tragedy…

        From…
        The Lyon’s Roar…
        https://thelyonsroarliterature.wordpress.com/about/

        —————————————————————————
        Vickie Stuart says:
        July 14, 2013 at 5:50 am
        hi jenna i enjoyed reading your story posted as a tribute for the fallen granite mountain hotshots… my nephew brandon bunch was on that crew and stepped down just a few days prior to their accident….. after 4 years with the crew he is very very sad…………my husband lost a cousin in the fire from that crew also……..we have all been touched.
        —————————————————————

        Kyle Dickman wrote that Bunch left the GM organization right after they returned from the Thompson Ridge fire ( where Renan Parker had his seizure and also had to leave the GM organization )… so that really can’t be considered just DAYS before the Yarnell tragedy. More like a few weeks preceding it.

        Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 19, 2015 at 12:54 pm ( CONTINUED )…

        **
        ** DANIEL LYON’S FATHER THINKS IT IS ‘NEAT’ THAT HIS SON
        ** IS LYING IN BED AND WANTS TO ‘PRAY MORE’.

        Sorry about this… I’m gonna take a LEFT TURN here and mention something related to the TWISP tragedy… but I think it somehow fits into the thread.

        I know the thread was about the strange ‘evangelical’ environment that was the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ organization… but maybe ( just maybe ) that sort of thing has commonality with even the latest TWISP tragedy.

        The parents of poor Daniel Lyon, the only FF from that Okanogan County Engine that survived the TWISP fire, recently gave their SECOND PUBLIC press conference.

        In that press conference, Daniel’s father ( also named Daniel Lyon ) said something pretty strange.

        He was asked how he felt about being in the room with his son and trying to communicate with him… and he said it was difficult… but he also said he thought it was ‘NEAT’ ( his exact word ) that his almost-burned-to-death son was now wanting to PRAY more than he used to.

        He said it made HIM ( the father ) ‘feel better’.

        I shit you not.

        I know I would probably be reduced to a blubbering idiot if I was put in front of cameras after spending two weeks in a hospital room with my son who was now missing more than HALF of his skin and in constant agony…

        …but it still struck me an an awful strange thing for him to say.

        Here is a Web Page containing the full video of the second Daniel Lyon press conference…

        http://www.kfbb.com/story/29935571/raw-family-and-doctor-of-burned-firefighter-daniel-lyon-speak-on-progress

        Transcripted parts of this SECOND video interview…
        —————————————————————————————-
        +4:04
        Q: Daniel… can you talk a little bit about the communications you have
        had with your son? What are those conversations like… and the emotions
        you feel being able to be in the room with him and see his progress?

        (Daniel Lyon, father ): The progress seems slow… but when I look back from the first day til today… it is immense. We haven’t had great conversations yet. He’s… he’s… pretty… uh… I don’t know what the word would be. It’s… it’s hard for him to speak and… uhm… a lotta medication… so it’s difficult to have a conversation at this time.

        Q: So when you talk about him being more responsive and interacting with him a little bit… what are those interactions like? What are you able to tell from… from his expressions to you?

        +4:51
        ( Daniel Lyon, father): I think the biggest thing that we’ve got to do is… is just… that he… he responds and he knows that we love… that we love him and that we’re in the room. I think that comforts him.

        Uhm… it’s been NEAT to have him… uh… uhm… it seems like he… he wants to pray a little more often than he used to. Uhm… and… and that gives US comfort and I hope… hopefully him.

        Other than that… not a lotta response at this time with him.
        ———————————————————————————–

        “NEAT”?

        “NEAT” that he wants to ‘pray more than he used to’ now that he’s missing more than half of his skin?

        I’m not sure I can fully wrap my head around the ‘weirdness’ of that statement or his choice of words… or the fact that the ‘postscript’ to his statement was that it made HIM feel better… and… oh… yea… I guess if it makes my son feel better that’s a good thing, too.

        Another TWISP fact…

        ** JUST LIKE GRANITE MOJNTAIN’S GARRET ZUPPIGER…
        ** TWISP FF ANDREW ZAJAC’S PARENT WAS A MINISTER

        One of the deceased Firefighters in TWISP was 26 year old Andrew Zajac.

        He lived in Winthrop, where he had moved only recently.

        He was originally from Illinois.

        Zajac’s mother, Mary Zajac, is a pastor at Baker Memorial United Methodist Church in St. Charles, Illinois.

        Reply

        • Outta time tonight… but wanted to say one more thing.

          Sonny was absolutely right with his comment down below.

          Joseph Smith, the ‘inventor’ of the Mormon faith… was, indeed, a 33 degree Mason.

          To this day… the ‘masked mob’ that descended on the Carthage jail where he was being held and then murdered him are said to have been local “Masonic Lodge’ dudes who were exercising the consequences of violating the Masonic ‘blood oath’ that you have to take… and there went there to that Carthage Jail to EXECUTE Joseph Smith.

          >> On September 18, 2015 at 5:00 pm, Sonny said…
          >>
          >> Hey sis did you not know that ole Joe Smith was a 33 degree
          >> mason as well as a Mormon?
          >> The Catholics used to burn the masons at stake.
          >> The Jehovah Witness were founded by a
          >> mason as well. Take your religion as you like–but everyone
          >> is welcome to walk on state and federal lands with no few
          >> according to our constitution.

          The following (accurate) account of the shooting death and murder of Mormon founder Joseph Smith is from…

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Smith

          ——————————————————————-
          On June 27, 1844, an armed mob with blackened faces stormed Carthage Jail where Joseph and Hyrum were being held. Hyrum, who was trying to secure the door, was killed instantly with a shot to the face. Smith fired a pepper-box pistol[151] that a friend had lent him for self-defense, then sprang for the window.[152] He was shot multiple times before falling out the window, crying, “Oh Lord my God!” He died shortly after hitting the ground, but was shot several times more before the mob dispersed.[153] Five men were later tried for his murder, but all were acquitted. Smith was buried in Nauvoo, and is currently interred there at the Smith Family Cemetery.
          ———————————————————————–

          To this day… that ‘armed mob’ was rumored to have been made up of ‘Masons’ who were more upset with Joseph Smith’s betrayal of his Masonic oaths than they were of the polygamy and the other things he had been trying to introduce in Illinois.

          The Masons have always had a ‘blood oath’ that you have to take to rise to certain levels in the organization.

          That ‘blood oath’ means what it says.

          You have to say that if you ever betray your ‘Masonic’ oaths… then you deserve to die, and other Masons have the right to make sure that happens to you.

          The Illinois Judge who oversaw the TRIAL of the men who murdered Joseph Smith ( and who were acquitted ) was, himself, a member of the local Masonic Lodge.

          Reply

          • Well…I knew we could count on you WTKTT. All I can say for right now, is that I am glad Mrs. Pfingston is NOT a Mormon.

            Reply

            • I think if somebody proposed this story for a Hollywood movie, it would be rejected on the grounds the story line is not believable and no one could possibly relate to such an off-the-wall story.

              And I just got done watching Chappie. That plot looked very plausible compared to the backstory of the Yarnell Hill Fire. I shit you not.

              Reply

              • WTKTT –You have got the finest way of expressing things so that people understand the truth instead of accepting bull shit as it has been dished out by the people that have much to loose if they dare speak reality. Bob calls the psychic realm bull shit but now I am pretty damn psychic considering that day at least. I had told Joy that those fellows looked to be on a death march. During our trek out because Joy was spent and wanted to tarry at one point I pointed to a copter that had a water bag below–it looked to be a body bag to me and I was in a hurry to get on knowing that that wind could change anytime. Those are actual facts of what happened and premonition that something was about to unfold was truly on my mind that day. Now if those men had used any of their psychic abilities at all that day they would have understood what I did that day. Did their religious training dampen their good senses of what was about to occur? Damn sure their intellectual faculties were dampened somehow since we well know that they attempted what every other person that knows fire fighting was an absolute no-no. So yes, WTKTT makes it clear that the religious factor certainly was there.

                Saint Peter might have to wait if I take up smoking-at least till I light up one. Most of my old Uranium miner buddies have died from the smoking habit. Somehow the carbon deposited in the lungs is attracted to radioactive particles and the captured particles of radium or uranium isotopes in due time metastasize the lung cells. We know that plutonium is in very tiny amounts in Uranium mining but we also know that Plutonium is one of the most poisonous elements on earth. One little atom of this stuff is enough to start a cancer. Is it any wonder we have so many cancers in this country? They use that shit in satellite batteries and plenty of it has entered the air and water supplies. When you are a working stiff taking care of a family you too often gloss over the facts–had you known then what the effects of some of these things do to ruin health you would never consider such occupations as Uranium mining. Yes we believed and were told that Uranium mining was for the good –needed for protection of the country and at the same time good for the environment==getting rid of coal and fuel pollutants in the air. We did all that despite the dangers. I always thought of underground mining as war and treated it that way. Then you see these old miners dying like flies and Chernobyl and Japanese events and you wonder why there are still people building nuke plants and making more bombs. It is sort of like the Viet Nam war–We felt it the right thing to do and were drafted expecting to fulfill our manly duty then years later we wonder if it were the right thing after all.

                The world is in a flux but not all changes we see are necessarily good either. I believe that I have been convinced here by the long time experience of men who have been there and done it that the system will make a mistake with the hybrid idea of firefighters. Maybe these nineteen deaths will punctuate that fact. Perhaps as well there will be a closer look at training procedures and adherence to common sense rules. We have to be optimistic on those points and revealing the mistakes that kill people is the only way it works. I think wild land fire fighting is alike going to war–I treated underground mining that way. They are dangerous occupations and participants need all the help they can get to stay well and alive. Make merry and be merry for what lies ahead are unknown, yet the odds can be greatly increased if safety rules and proper work procedures are followed. Definitely keep your religious ideas to yourself–I don’t know about your god and don’t want to know–but likely he is a god that figures you ought to have enough intelligence drummed into you before you are allowed to pull off the ignorant shit that will kill you. The teachers here are responsible and they failed miserably in the Yarnell Hill tragedy.

                Reply

                • All good thoughts, especially these Thanks

                  “Make merry and be merry for what lies ahead are unknown, yet the odds can be greatly increased if safety rules and proper work procedures are followed. Definitely keep your religious ideas to yourself–I don’t know about your god and don’t want to know–but likely he is a god that figures you ought to have enough intelligence drummed into you before you are allowed to pull off the ignorant shit that will kill you.”

                  Reply

    • WTKTT –You have got the finest way of expressing things so that people understand the truth instead of accepting bull shit as it has been dished out by the people that have much to loose if they dare speak reality. Bob calls the psychic realm bull shit but now I am pretty damn psychic considering that day at least. I had told Joy that those fellows looked to be on a death march. During our trek out because Joy was spent and wanted to tarry at one point I pointed to a copter that had a water bag below–it looked to be a body bag to me and I was in a hurry to get on knowing that that wind could change anytime. Those are actual facts of what happened and premonition that something was about to unfold was truly on my mind that day. Now if those men had used any of their psychic abilities at all that day they would have understood what I did that day. Did their religious training dampen their good senses of what was about to occur? Damn sure their intellectual faculties were dampened somehow since we well know that they attempted what every other person that knows fire fighting was an absolute no-no. So yes, WTKTT makes it clear that the religious factor certainly was there.

      Saint Peter might have to wait if I take up smoking-at least till I light up one. Most of my old Uranium miner buddies have died from the smoking habit. Somehow the carbon deposited in the lungs is attracted to radioactive particles and the captured particles of radium or uranium isotopes in due time metastasize the lung cells. We know that plutonium is in very tiny amounts in Uranium mining but we also know that Plutonium is one of the most poisonous elements on earth. One little atom of this stuff is enough to start a cancer. Is it any wonder we have so many cancers in this country? They use that shit in satellite batteries and plenty of it has entered the air and water supplies. When you are a working stiff taking care of a family you too often gloss over the facts–had you known then what the effects of some of these things do to ruin health you would never consider such occupations as Uranium mining. Yes we believed and were told that Uranium mining was for the good –needed for protection of the country and at the same time good for the environment==getting rid of coal and fuel pollutants in the air. We did all that despite the dangers. I always thought of underground mining as war and treated it that way. Then you see these old miners dying like flies and Chernobyl and Japanese events and you wonder why there are still people building nuke plants and making more bombs. It is sort of like the Viet Nam war–We felt it the right thing to do and were drafted expecting to fulfill our manly duty then years later we wonder if it were the right thing after all.

      The world is in a flux but not all changes we see are necessarily good either. I believe that I have been convinced here by the long time experience of men who have been there and done it that the system will make a mistake with the hybrid idea of firefighters. Maybe these nineteen deaths will punctuate that fact. Perhaps as well there will be a closer look at training procedures and adherence to common sense rules. We have to be optimistic on those points and revealing the mistakes that kill people is the only way it works. I think wild land fire fighting is alike going to war–I treated underground mining that way. They are dangerous occupations and participants need all the help they can get to stay well and alive. Make merry and be merry for what lies ahead are unknown, yet the odds can be greatly increased if safety rules and proper work procedures are followed. Definitely keep your religious ideas to yourself–I don’t know about your god and don’t want to know–but likely he is a god that figures you ought to have enough intelligence drummed into you before you are allowed to pull off the ignorant shit that will kill you. The teachers here are responsible and they failed miserably in the Yarnell Hill tragedy.

      Reply

  108. A friend emailed me and suggested that I need a change of venue, which I interpreted that perhaps I need a little break from IM, so I am going to give it a rest for a little while. He also emailed me some really funny things, and I have just posted my favorite one to my website.

    If any of you are looking for a hobby out there, I can wholeheartedly recommend learning how to do websites. You can put almost anything you want on them (I wouldn’t suggest making terrorist threats to someone on one) to express yourself. So here is my favorite thing he sent me and I want to share it with you just in case you need a little smile.

    http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post September 20, 2015 at 9:59 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> A friend emailed me and suggested that I need a change of venue, which
      >> I interpreted that perhaps I need a little break from IM, so I am going to
      >> give it a rest for a little while.

      Before you go… take a quick read of the response to your recent post I just left as
      you were typing your message.

      As it turns out… there *might* be a ‘common thread’ entitled “Fighting fires for JESUS and to hell with the rules” between the tragedy of Yarnell and the tragedy that happened in TWISP.

      The response above provides information ( and links ) for all of the following…

      1) Deborah Pfingston wrote a screenplay about “JESUS comes to Prescott” and tried to get the MOVIE produced in 2009. AUDITIONS were held at a Prescott Baptist Chruch.

      2) Former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch ( who just missed getting killed by a few weeks ) must have felt right at home with the GM organization since the graphics banner on his PUBLIC Facebook is a picture of his own BIBLE with hand-underlined passages and the only BOOK he lists as a ‘Favorite’ is “The Bible”.

      3) Just like Garret Zuppiger of GM… one of the Twisp FFs killed has a minister for a parent.

      4) The father of Daniel Lyon, the FF who survived the Twisp fire, said in a press conference that he thinks it is NEAT ( his exact word ) that his son, who is now missing more than half his skin and is in constant agony, seems to want to PRAY more than he used to.

      5) Other “You can’t make this shit up” stuff.

      Direct ‘jumplink’ to my full response above is…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-308145

      Reply

      • Well…I should clarify what I meant by a little break from IM. That was in reference to my recent postings, which did take a dark turn amidst my outrage that anyone would deny Joy her constitutional rights under the color of law or the manipulation thereof and not my participation in this thread overall…I am now an addicted blogger.

        And of course I have read your postings regarding religion, the GMIHC and the Twisp Fire since I have been waiting for you to weigh in. I don’t believe the Pfingston email is the last piece of evidence that will come forward in this saga, but it certainly was an important one, since the role fanatical religious beliefs may have played in this tragedy has been on my mind ever since listening to Darrell Willis out at the deployment site spout his outrageous theories of why the GMIHC died.

        And as far as the Twisp fire goes, I really hope that is a one-off comment made by a grieving father in shock who is trying to cope by leaning on a pillar of support in his life, his faith. Otherwise, we are going to have to start looking for religious fanatics who are basing fire line decisions on “there is no god but God” and “In Jesus All Things Are Possible” on every wildland firefighting crew in the nation and I think we are going to be doing good to nail down what those things meant on the GMIHC.

        And yes, even if this wasn’t your favorite bone to chew on, which of course just how I describe something that I can’t let go of, the religious angle within the Human Factors is something that you have mentioned as being the Third Rail in this discussion.

        And even at this point, I was still taken aback at the Pfingston email, especially when she said, “This group was all Godly men, several carried Bibles and ALL OF THEM PRAYED TOGETHER and committed themselves to the Lord and the truth of His scripture.” And although she did not specify that is what they did on the job as civil servants, I think that is clearly what she meant by her statement. Holy Shit!

        I pulled the Jacob Hamblin connection out of my hat, just as I like to wrap myself in my own Christian beliefs to build my street creds and to establish that I am neither a Christian or Mormon antagonist. And just to get something else straight, it is not Christians, Jews, Muslims and Mormons. Mormons are Christians, and whatever anyone else thinks, it is the “Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter Day Saints” and Mormons is just a nickname and they have accepted Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior as church policy since day one as far as I know. So…

        And as far as Joseph Smith “inventing” the LDS church, as far as I’m concerned, all Christian faiths are basically off shoots and break-a-way sects of the Catholic Church, which were all invented by a man somewhere along the way, whether it was Martin Luther (the German Friar, not the Jr. all of the boulevards are named after) or Henry VIII. Some were just “invented” further back in history than the Mormon faith. BUT…if something is bullshit, just because it is older, doesn’t make it any less so.

        Well…I think that is enough of a historical theological lesson from me today, if you would like to continue this discussion on the side…please email me at http://[email protected]

        Reply

        • And please, don’t anyone try to email me at the address above, it was just another one of my stupid sarcastic jokes…or whatever you want to call them, I was not serious. There is no such email address, the correct one is really

          http://[email protected]

          and your email will be forwarded to me. Thank you

          Reply

  109. Oh…and one more thing Mrs. Pfingston. They didn’t close the underground uranium mine after my father was crushed by heavy equipment and was knocked down a mine shaft. Men like him and Sonny are national heroes just like your son, but unlike your son, nobody has ever named them as heroes, the Vice President of the United States didn’t recognize their sacrifice and nobody held a community memorial service or fund raiser.

    My mother received a total of five thousand dollars from the State of New Mexico Workmen’s Compensation Fund, which although that was a lot more in 1958 than it is now, it was still a pittance compared to the money Mrs. Ashcraft has received for Andrews death.

    FYI – my mother never remarried. And if you don’t understand why men like my father and Sonny are national heroes, you need to review your history and how critical it was to this nation’s security to obtain uranium to build nuclear bombs to protect against possible Soviet aggression. And this desperate need led to the headlong rush to obtain uranium at any price with little regard for the safety of the men who worked to dig it from the ground.

    No one gets to close a highway or any other public place just because their child or other family member dies there. Joy and I own the Arizona State Land where the deployment occurred just as much as you do. You suffered a terrible loss, a lot of people suffer terrible losses. Tell me what you have done to help some of those people lately…or ever?

    Reply

    • And don’t try to take advantage of my loving Christian nature…just because I love Mormons. And above all…don’t expect me or anyone else to believe just like you do. That is what makes the United States of America Great.

      Reply

        • Oh Wow. I told everyone several months ago that I would eventually blog about my mother’s maiden name and now it has come to pass. It was…Hamblin.

          Reply

          • Sonny or Bob – I said psychics and mediums were all the same thing to me…bullshit. But if either one of you can put me in touch with either my father or little brother…a case of your favorite beverage is on me.

            Reply

  110. Correction – I shouldn’t have called the Pfingston email a “smoking gun” because I think our definition of a smoking gun would be proof that someone (Able, Willis, Musser or someone else) in position of power over Marsh ordered him to take his crew out of the black and attempt such a reckless tactical maneuver of trying to beat the train.

    I should have referred to the Pfingston email as the “missing link” because I believe it provides the missing link in the human factors category that most of us has believed has existed all along ever since we listed to Pastor Bishop Reverend High Priest Darrell Willis spout his ridiculous theories out at the deployment site about why the GMIHC died.

    So…now we know WTKTT recent pattern.. He is reading this posts somewhere in transit but doesn’t have the time or battery power to respond, but I am looking forward to hearing from him since the religion factor has been his (most?) favorite bone to chew on and what he has referred to as the “third rail” of this discussion.

    So…God Is Great and God has provided us with this missing link to help us better understand why the GMIHC perished in the flames of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Reply

  111. dale1 says

    September 18, 2015 at 7:16 am

    joy say ”how is it even legally possible for Holly Neill to gain such knowledge in investigating the very area labeled restricted…not even Ashcraft family can say she is their guest,t…because she is publicly on a blog saying stuff that warrants it…;;;””’

    meybe holly gets away withh it becauss she”s not on a weblog talking about it,,,… you are;;,,,…
    you put hollys name out there becauss you want sheriff to serve holly neal or what?/??….,,,

    OK – here is the reason Joy got in trouble with Mrs. Pfingston. Its because you Joy agreed to take MR. PFINGSTON out to the site and show him around. And as you can clearly read, Mr. Pfingston actually WANTED to go with the psychic until Mrs. Pfingston flipped out.

    And FYI Mrs. Pfingston – If you don’t want me to fuck with you….don’t fuck with those who I respect and have done so much to get to the bottom of why the GMIHC died.

    Hi Joy,

    Thanks again for the up date, and just whenever you plan a trip let me know, I’m always interested in hiking the ridge. I’m very interested in going with the lawyers and Psychic most though. What is this hiking competition and the History Channel event you speak of? I’m very interested in talking with you about the mayor, our family and the city are still in on going court litigation, but I would be willing to hear where or why he supports or does not support somethings.

    Yes, Deborah and I will be at the January 6th meeting. I have no problem with greetings at the meeting however, I wouldn’t want the people to think that we are to familiar with the other, for instance, I want them to think that we are each independent in our investigation and search for evidence of what happened on that day, as not to be influenced by the other in what we find or share.

    Jerry P.

    On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 4:47 PM, joy C wrote:

    Only update I can share is on Christmas I cooked 2 days at my home in Congress and I stared at the Weavers and felt drawn to sleep on the mountain top so I asked my husband to go and he declined and Sonny too..as I geared up heading out skeeter and sonny ended up caving in and on the way up and twice same night came.in contact with the mountain lion and my game.trail camera said 16 degrees with high winds so you did not miss out.
    Lawyers want warmer weather
    Psychic wanted to go today but we could not change the plans we had so she said after the snow storm and warmer days and the history channel reached us again this month and ycso and willis seem ok about the hiking competition but chief ben palm don’t so if you know him maybe you can see if he is no or yes
    Also amanda marsh is stepping in areas reaching and talking to my ol hiking pals and now i know the core to who wants me arrested…also a lot of people do not have all the information on the mayor and we dug…so there is a lot of people hate him…i can state only fact base stuff and that there is more details that needs to be shown to the public by everyone on that memorial for the 19 at the site and more than ever I know we are on right track to keep searching. Are you going to the January 6 3pm meeting …the lawyer we now have to bounce off of states we must go and sound record and keep reaching the homeowners yet it is not always so simple….I want to go yet Sonnys jeep transmission went and we just been hiking local to see what homeowners would talk.
    When at meeting are you in any political areas like we see the board are that are we okay to greet you or do you need for us to do hidden hellos…hee hee…seems a lot of sensitivity in public spots because it is what we have seen…may have to rent a car or something so we can go to meeting
    Happy new years to you all…

    Reply

    • And I do apologize to Joy for getting it wrong…medium…psychic…it’s all the same thing to me, bullshit. BUT…I will fight to the death (not really, I have to much to live for, my new ATV’s are fucking awesome) or at least blog until my fingers bleed to defend everyone’s right to believe as they see fit. MAY GOD BLESS AMERICA!

      And Jesus Christ will understand why I used his name in vain and forgive me, he is angry at the Bible Thumpers as well because they are partly responsible for the horrific deaths many wildland firefighters.

      Reply

  112. Oh…and one more thing. Is there anybody out there who now doubts that the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were (in general) a bunch of Bible Thumping Christian Zealots who were muttering, “God is Great” and “In Jesus All Things Are Possible” as they marched in front of the fucking blowtorch of a wildfire. JESUS H. FUCKING CHRIST!

    THANKS A LOT….GMIHC PATOR REVEREND DARELL WILLIS!

    Reply

    • Fuck me, should read, “THANKS A LOT….GMIHC PASTOR REVEREND DARELL WILLIS!”

      I shouldn’t post when I am so FUCKING MAD! Strike that, I shouldn’t post when I am so FUCKING FURIOUS”

      Reply

    • Ouch Gary.

      Kinda like a bee sting huh.

      ouch.

      it hurt but in realization the bee sting venom may protect me down the line.

      That is the optimistic part to me…but sure unloaded here on me…

      I can understand. I accept it. No more on topic for me. Probably the healthy thing to do.

      I have to side note here and let you know when I read it I craved the chocolate and Tillamook malted vanilla milkshake but headed for a carrot and pear and cucumber…time to get rid of the extra lard hanging around…maybe it was a layer of lard on the brain…

      I had no clue me writing on me being singled out would get you to write misinformed information.

      Our world is conditioned that bee venom is looked upon with some trepidation…which does not shock me…

      what you said… I felt like I OD on niacin and was having one hell of a serious feverish flush reaction…especially when
      Sonny said RIGHT ON to Gary’s post…I was like “how can you RIGHT ON a man who just put out there misinformation because I never hiked any medium and the only time I
      have been to site is with OSHA”…

      FACTS: One of the nation’s top FBI/law enforcement investigating mediums was dangled for over a year to a hike because I personally was not comfortable with it but
      when one of the loved ones emailed me December 31st 2014 4:56pm “I’m always interested in hiking the ridge. I’m very interested in going with the lawyers and Psychic
      most though” SO I than set the
      pondering plan into action and set the date and emailed the family the date and instead another loved one not original person and replied 1-4-15 5:41pm to make a clear
      stance with relgious beliefs and that God is offended as well as
      them….and reaffirmed clarity that the sheriff would be informed…and indeed Max Masel confirmed YCSO reached him so I had to dig there and learned it was more than
      one that day at a memorial meeting that
      addressed the concern that NEVER took place (NEVER been to site except OSHA and never hiked a medium) and I was only awaiting another to permit such moment because
      I was not comfortable in doing it…not my style.
      Sonny said there was a layer facetious yet he likes how Gary speaks. I guess that’s where we are different because I do not comprehend this whole Holly is PLAYING the system.
      She is a lovely woman. I do not like to hear a person perceive her such way. I learned about the whole set of rules Gary Olsen being around early on number the poor section
      of Maricopa County to than living in upscale…you see the rules vary by your zip code…as time went by… I saw a serial killer get put away on only one murder and got life but
      recently the prosecutor made me aware of the situation of the killer’s release and guided me NOT to get a order of protection and just lay low in HOPES this killer forgot me…one person stored in
      a freezer…and Sonny do not read this and feel freedom to share my personal trauma as I have seen you do in saloons…its a very hard part to my beginnings and you with such ease
      like to share it and its down right inappropriate and so is the layer of this message by Gary in regards to Willis and the loved ones. I know the variance of rules…knowing the mafia world and the gangster world…
      an even the law enforcement in South Phoenix back in the 80’s…and you do not know the Prescott court system probably Gary…..they rarely label a case CRIMINAL if it does not benefit them
      so they do not have to appoint a public lawyer which I would not have one from THAT county…so to get to the gist…and for the record…I have ONLY been to deployment site
      with OSHA and never no medium. …and the higher up YCSO was not walking a fine line and he explained it well that one of the loved ones made a concern but no public record
      report and the YCSO officer looked into by handing over my name and address to STATE LAND Max Masel and Max never heard of me but got official request so he sent me
      what he did but noone looking into it just appeasing a misfed/misled comment…I won’t talk about the past on this…the only part of the past I do not understand is WHY
      I lay alone of being served when Holly feels so FREE to speak as she is public of the cuts and knobs that lay in restricted areas…So what I now UNDERSTAND…I hiked
      an area for a long time and it was my second home than be shut off from it but see others freely do what they want to my once frequently travelled area and publicly talk about it feels like a slap. I guess
      like Sonny said I am too sensitive to the cyber world and to stay off it because people are misjudging and not assessing my stance correct…
      Just to make you understand…this ain’t all about Joy…we have hiked many of people who were not allowed in area…men who knew the men since they were kids and so on and it seems unfair people real close to the men are told no but Holly did not know the men and its ok..and it is on blogs as Dale1–poor man just has had poor reading comprehension because its her public talk that got me thinking on topic…

      now for Dale1…you want me to reply to you…come on I M as a man and speak your full name and I will answer you…I no longer reply to cyber ids….

      Reply

  113. Correction, now I now for sure Joy is mad at me.

    Joy said, “But FUCK YOU…

    I have a few months left on my court order and I never mentioned a medium just seems bullshit that Holly has such clout and you could fuck me up…over a dumb fucking mention of the fucking mediums”

    But I bet she stops bitchin’ about not be able to go out to that fucikin’ sacred ground that the Ashcraft’s own.

    Reply

  114. Just like I thought, I got some of the story wrong, but in my opinion, it doesn’t change the gist of the problem. The Ashcraft’s have to much donated money because they can squander it on lawyers to fuck with Joy’s constitutional rights. You will not find any families of the dead federal firefighters with money to burn spending it on lawyers to restrict the areas where their loved ones died to go and do anything they want. And if want they want to do is illegal to do there, they will rely on the authorities to stop it.

    And now Joy is mad at me, I think, but if she isn’t, she will send me an email because she is mad at me that I said she is mad at me. I have 9 messages in my inbox from her and so far I have read only two of them. She didnt’ say these emails are confidential, so you can read them for yourself and be the judge. And FYI – Joy never asked me to get involved in this on her behalf, but I don’t have to be asked to get involed in something if I think it is wrong. That is just one being me. And like I said, we are a lot more like the Morton Downey Jr. Show than the Jerry Springer Show and we need some drama to keep our readers coming back for more. So…”it’s all good” as they say.

    Joy said,

    Mrs. Pfingston said,

    “Joy and Sonny,

    Jerry and I need to make something very clear so I will try to be as plain as I can. Taking any psychic out to the site is extremely offensive and wrong. We in NO WAY support this action.

    God has made it very clear that He is offended by the practice of mediums/soothsayers/psychics: Leviticus 20:6, Leviticus 19:31, I John 4:1-3, I Chronicles 10:13-14, Deuteronomy 18:20-22, Leviticus 20:27, 2 Kings 21:6, Exodus 22:18, Revelation 22: 15, Deuteronomy 18:10, and Acts 16:16-19(to list a few). I have underlined the scriptures from God’s Word that are very direct about this evil, all of these scriptures deal with this repulsive act.

    You need to understand that not only is God offended by this but we are too. I will speak about my son, he was a God fearing, Bible believing man who would have been the first to tell you this is evil, wrong and to stop. This group was all Godly men, several carried Bibles and all of them prayed together and committed themselves to the Lord and the truth of His scripture. I know for a fact that several would be outraged that a medium would be contacted or even given the time to corrupt/deceive. I am also 100% positive that many family members would be outraged that this was even being planned/discussed.

    This site is a scared place for us and needs to be respected and honored. Neither you nor anyone other than family members, hotshots, or fire fighters have access to this site. I know that hotshots and firefighter only go in once they ask several of us permission to do so. This is respect and honoring the men that lost their lives. You both need to do the same. There is restricted area that needs to be respected and the two track road is included in this space.

    Again, let me be very clear – NO psychic has permission to enter into this restricted area which includes the two track road. I also expect the two of you to step back and give families time to build a respectful memorial for our loved ones. When the memorial is completed you – as well as anyone who is interested – can visit and pay respect to Granite Mountain Inter-agency Hotshots.

    This is not up for discussion and I will inform the sheriff of our expectations that the restrictions be fully enforced.

    Thank you for respectfully understanding and following our decision.

    Deborah and Jerry Pfingston”

    Reply

    • This sentence doesn’t make any sense. “That is just one being me.” It should read. ” That is just one of the privileges of being me.”

      Reply

      • Fuck Me! Forgot the Joy said part, Joy said ”

        I NEVER brought a medium anywhere…never happened
        ..
        I have only been to site with investigators

        Fbi mediums were willing to go…
        Ashcraft sstepdad emailed us wanting to be on hike
        I arrange a date for hike and email to.confirm and ashcraft mom flips out on topic

        Send u emails so u got it right”

        Reply

        • Id be shit out of luck. Fire Fighter and Ghost Hunter
          I was a investigator with Ghost hunters for 4 years.
          Went on a lot of ghost hunts and got some interesting recordings. Had a rock thrown at me in a Basement and had a ghost in a bar ask for a beer I shit you not…..

          If it is a State Park (That’s my understanding) then it is public ground and no one can be restricted. When it was purchased by the Parks and Recreation for the memorial
          it became public owned land.

          Reply

    • Joy doesn’t mention that I am both a psychic and medium and as well have a bat hide in religion. What we wanted was not to offend the Mormon’s –my sister is one. But we want people to realize in America if it is of the land of the free, the idea of religion should not be an issue concerning the deaths of 19 young men. Unfortunately it is or at least was part of the methods these men came together and you can have religion off a bar stool. A bar owner I worked for tuned into Billy Graham every Sunday while he enjoyed his beer. That was a hell of a lot better way to enjoy religion as far as I am concerned over being trapped by some obnoxious preacher in a crowd of Heaven hopefuls. That is what make us look to a right free Americans are willing to fight for. Be you a Jew, Zombie, Devil Worshiper, Medium, Mormon, or even a Muslim or Comrad, we will fight for your right to worship or not worship the way you like. The assholes that are readty to tromp on others beliefs are those that are alike the people in Saudi Arabia that would send 19 men out to kill people in air planes and ram buildings in New York. Hey Jesus ain”t all that bad. I have met him a couple times on a bar stool in Mexico–got drunk with him too.

      Hey sis did you not know that ole Joe Smith was a 33 degree mason as well as a Mormon? The Catholics used to burn the masons at stake. The Jehovah Witness were founded by a mason as well. Take your religion as you like–but everyone is welcome to walk on state and federal lands with no few according to our constitution. Only a robber would charge to do that.

      Reply

  115. besides here and Bill Gabbert’s- can any of you lead me to other areas where they are talking about not only Yarnell Fire but any fire fatality fires like Storm King…or is I M the longest running discussion on the topic and that’s how it earned its label “obsession” or people too involved…please help me and educate me how it was fine and dandy to hike all John wanted me to hike but because years have passed how is it I am the only one on legal record that has a concern on topic yet all I have done is kept my door open for people trying to assess a fire since I was there.

    Anyone want to do the strict paleo…still doing it yet it has its storms…not easy and done it 100%

    also when I spoke to a higher up to YCSO he was neutral and explained it better on the topic…so if any of you have concerns to people in restricted area…all you do is file report to YCSO…then that organization sends it to State Land Max Masel than Max serves you that violated the law…easy as that…that is how easy I was served such but it can happen to anyone publicly reporting they were in area that the law stands ONLY the fallen family not friends or fire fighter community as it was loosely laid out…the paper is not written that way July 12 2013 8pm…kind of like ICU in hospitals—only family can visit…and again not all restricted area JUST the area the men died. That was made clear to me.

    Reply

    • when it becomes a state park then firefighters ME and all alike can go on designated areas only…

      so again in that knowledge how is it even legally possible for Holly Neill to gain such knowledge in investigating the very area labeled restricted…not even Ashcraft family can say she is their guest, That is how it was explained to me. Only and I mean ONLY the officials assigned to investigate is allowed in that area so how is it she can publicly share such and its ok…I ain’t calling ycso on anyone…not my style…but I should not have been fed what I was saying I was where men died because facts I was there where men died with professional investigators OSHA…I should be off the list of being served and Holly should be on it…because she is publicly on a blog saying stuff that warrants it…

      yeah, still a touchy topic…

      Reply

      • Joy – It’s like just about everything in this world. There is the way it is SUPPOSED to work and then there is the way it DOES work. Holly is playing the system and so she is being rewarded by the system with special treatment and consideration.

        There are always more than one set of rules, those for special people (for lots of reason) and the rules for everybody else, and then there are the rules for people who have been branded as undesirables and then they get treated worse than anyone.

        I am going to do my very best here to keep from going on a tirade, “but I won’t, I won’t. The hell I won’t! ” (John Wayne in McLintock – 1963). Now I might be little bit off on the story, but I think I have it more or less right. And even if I have some things wrong, I believe I have the gist of it.

        You went out to the deployment site with a medium to contact the dead. The dead firefighters I presume. Now…I personally thing that is a little wacky, but this is the United States of American and countless heroes have fought and died for you to have a right to believe in that if you want to and practice it wherever you want to unless the owners of the property say you cant.

        And some very wise men (with lots of good advice from all of the women who made it possible for those wise men to take on the world’s leading superpower at the time and kick their ass!) made that possible because they wrote a document called the United States Constitution.

        But it goes like this. There are pockets in this country filled with superstitious, petty, selfish, self serving, greedy, mean spirited and just plain mean people who do anything they want until their stomp on the wrong toes and then they have to send in the U.S. Marshalls backed up by the 82nd Airborne and maybe the 1st Armored Division to remind those assholes they live in the United States, not some third world country they own where they get to make all of the rules.

        You could accomplish the same goal in this instance if you had the money to hire one attorney, and they would not even have to be a good attorney, they would just need to know how to file a motion written in the arcane language the legal system perpetuates to perpetuate itself and file it with one of the in-bred country judges who is running the in-bred cesspool they call Everybody’s Hometown and Yavapai County in general and the Great State of Arizona to some extent.

        And then your attorney could sharpen up a nice stick and tell Max Masel that if he doesn’t lift the restriction on you….he or she is going to shove it up his ass and break if off. It wouldn’t go that far, and Max Masel would back down because he knows what he is doing is not right or constitutional but until somebody with some push is able to call him on it, he is going to keep right on doing what he is doing.

        The “higher up at the YCSO” knows what I am saying is true, and he or she is being very careful to walk a very fine line between doing what “they” have ordered him to do and doing the right thing he knows he is supposed to be doing because he swore an oath to defend and protect if not the U.S. Constitution (which I did) then he swore to do the same thing with the Arizona Constitution which basically gives you the same rights as the U.S. Constitution.

        And he doesn’t want his name on a lawsuit brought by you that he is denying you your constitutional right to practice your “beliefs” anyway you want to, because he knows that is the kind of thing that can bring down the wrath of God and the federal government on everybody’s heads. And although he knows that is not going to happen in this case, he still feels like a chicken shit yes man and a coward who is too afraid to stand up to the powers that be in Yavapai County because he wants to protect his retirement and his kids health insurance, which are the very same reasons why Jesse Steed killed his entire hotshot crew. Sometimes attaining those goals can be very costly.

        Now let me get to the root of you problem. Your problem is named the Ashcraft et al Family. They have been on a roll since Andrew was burned alive because almost everyone (including me) feels very sorry for them and almost everyone (including me) wants to try to find a way to make this situation just a little bit better for them.

        Now…they started out with a real bang. They got full time employee benefits awarded retroactively and posthumously to Andrew (and I am really glad that happened, God Bless America) even though he did not earn them or deserve them. I’m sorry, but if you are a temporary employee, you are a temporary employee and that doesn’t change after the fact just because you are dead and people feel sorry for you. But that isn’t really the reason that changed, it changed because the Ashcraft family et al have been a juggernaut in the community since this tragedy happened.

        They are lucky Andrew was not working for the federal government as a temporary employee because they would not have even been allowed into the ball park, much less be able to hit a grand slam against that sand lot team they played against.

        They are the EIGHT HUNDRED POUND SQUEAKY WHEELS, and as such they are sucking all of the oxygen out of the room and getting all of the grease. They are also Christian Fanatics (Mormons…and hey, we established a long time ago I identify with Mormons) who happen to think you are something or someone who is just one step above or on par with a Devil Worshipper! And if they could (and this was a few hundred years ago) they would actually like to burn you at the stake unless they could get you to repent and believe just like they do.

        So…I want you to quit fucking complaining so much about being singled out for not being allowed to go out to that fucking deployment site because you have been complaining now for months and I have resisted up until now explaining to you how the world works…and now you have forced me to expose myself even further to the world as a person who speaks” truth to power”, whatever the fuck that means, which means I might eventually get burned at the stake beside you when the Ashcraft’s finishes taking over that shit hole inbred city they call Prescott.

        I want you to start being grateful that you aren’t being slow roasted over a fire pit for communicating or even knowing people or even thinking about communicating with the dead or any of that other horse shit, because you live in a U.S. Constitution Free Zone called Yavapai County and nobody is going to send the 82nd Airborne to go hiking with you…OK…Got It…Any Questions? Good!

        Now…Holly gets to go out to the deployment site because she has befriended the Ashcraft family and she has been manipulating them and the system to pursue her research and get access to inside information through her friendship with them (like direct access to the deployment site), so just like the Ashcraft Family, holly NEIL gets special treatment and she is above the law. What about that don’t you understand?

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing. If you can’t be happy simply because you are not being burned at the stake as a heretic by hateful and intolerant Christian Zealots, you could always go with Plan B.

          Plan B calls for you to notify that YCSO higher up you have already talked to that you intend to engage in civil disobedience and go out to the deployment site anyway.

          Ignore all written warnings and violation notices you are issued, insist that they arrest you and charge you criminally. Plead not guilty, ask for (and you will receive a court appointed attorney because you probably don’t have the money to pay for one yourself, after all, you did not receive millions in dollars in public donations)

          You will probably be found guilty the first time in a Yavapai County Superior Kangaroo Court. Appeal that verdict. And by that time, maybe the ACLU or the Witches, Warlocks and Heretics of America Legal Defense Fund will come to your aid AND you can file a civil lawsuit against everybody and in the end, the Constitution (who all of those right wing nut jobs in Arizona are always basing all of their crazy behavior on) will finally win the day and you will get a big settlement and then you will have a small portion of the millions of donated dollars the families of the GMIHC have to squander on lawyers to fuck with your Constitutional rights.

          Then you and all of those families can hold a press conference and announce how much of all of the donated millions all of you have, you are going to collectively donate to the families of the dead federal wildland firefighters in Washington…because they aren’t going to get very much from Uncle Sugar because most of them were probably temporary employees (almost all federal wildland firefighters are) and Uncle Sugar has a crack team of asshole lawyers who are going to make sure they do not get appointed to full time positions after the fact and posthumously by backdating some personnel documents like those light weights (they probably weren’t bad attorneys, the powers that be in Prescott just did not have the stomach for the repeated attacks in the media against them by a very savvy Ashcraft Team, so they folded…thank goodness, I just wish the bad guys would fold all of the time, but they don’t) did for Andrew.

          Do you have any questions?

          Am I bitter? Who me? (Mad Magazine) Fuck no! Do I know how the world works…fuck yes!

          Reply

        • Gary Olson. You don’t know me, nor I you, but I just gotta say that is about the the best explaination of the facts I’ve heard in a long time. Outstanding! And yes, I’ve been on this story since Chapter one. You guy’s, Bob, WTKTT, Marti, Gary and others, are all Real troopers here. Don’t have time now, but I’ll be back soon and tell you my outsider view on this whole cluster F otherwise known as YHF. Later

          Reply

          • I always like hearing what everyone thinks Robert, and it certainly sounds like you clearly know what you are talking about, so I am especially looking forward to hearing more from you.

            Reply

      • joy say ”how is it even legally possible for Holly Neill to gain such knowledge in investigating the very area labeled restricted…not even Ashcraft family can say she is their guest,t…because she is publicly on a blog saying stuff that warrants it…;;;””’

        meybe holly gets away withh it becauss she”s not on a weblog talking about it,,,… you are;;,,,…
        you put hollys name out there becauss you want sheriff to serve holly neal or what?/??….,,,

        Reply

        • Dale1 – NEIL is getting away with it because no one has been offended by her like Mrs. Pfington was offended by Joy and so no one has gone to the time, trouble and EXPENSE of taking her to court to get a court order against her. Mrs. Pfington and the Ashcraft Team are abusing the system, their donated money, and peoples emotions to feel sorry for them and their terrible loss.

          Like I said a very long time ago, Mrs. Ashcraft can thank Darrell Willis for the death of her husband Andrew. Religion should never have been allowed to dominate the GMIHC. Darrell Willis encouraged and promoted it to the point it killed them.

          I think I just posted the “smoking gun” of why the GMIHC died beyond the obvious (Marsh and Steed screwed up) so…your welcome.

          Here is one place you can find NEIL bragging about being out to the deployment site in violation of the law. So…get it straight young man! And once again…knock it off!

          http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html?m=1

          Reply

  116. Someone please enlighten on me on what happened to the 4 firefighters involved in the Twisp fire on Woods Canyon Rd. So I get it that they crash their vehicle near vehicle near 37 Woods Canyon Rd home. Previous remarks on this site and photos show that it didn’t really look like a nasty crash and was close to the road. So let me get this straight, after the crash the 3 firefighters get out of the truck and are overrun by the fire nearby while the single firefighter stays in the truck and gets severely burned. Why did he stay in the truck? Why did the others leave the truck? Could the others have possibly lived if they stayed put? I’m quiet confused how this whole mess went. down. As stated quite a bit here, why were they up there anyway?

    Reply

    • No John— One got out of the vehicle and ran he was 60% burn victim. The other 3 died in the vehicle according to current info.

      Separate incident near the Fatalities 3 Fire fighters had burns near a house and also took refuge inside the Garage till it caught on fire they had burns and were taken to the Hospital and then released.

      Sorry that’s fast but in a hurry right now.

      Reply

    • Reply to John post on September 17, 2015 at 9:20 am

      >> John said…
      >>
      >> Someone please enlighten on me on what happened to the 4 firefighters
      >> involved in the Twisp fire on Woods Canyon Rd. So I get it that they
      >> crash their vehicle near vehicle near 37 Woods Canyon Rd home.
      >> Previous remarks on this site and photos show that it didn’t really look
      >> like a nasty crash and was close to the road.

      That’s correct… and the photos/videos also tend to suggest it wasn’t even that bad of a ‘curve’ in the road at the point where the Engine left the road ( as it was heading DOWN Woods Canyon Road ).

      Some reports say they crashed as they were headed UP Woods Canyon Road, but the photos and videos from the crash site don’t support that. Investigators marked the tire tracks from Woods Canyon Road down to where the Engine came to rest with orange paint… and that orange paint is still visible in the photos. The Engine left the RIGHT side of the road as it was headed DOWN Woods Canyon Road and ‘came to rest’ only about 40 feet from where it left the road. Barely more than ‘2 Engine lengths’ down from the shoulder of the road and only about a 12 foot drop in elevation.

      On a certain level… it almost looks like a classic case of trying to ‘grab shoulder’ on a dirt road because another vehicle is trying to pass coming UP the same road and there’s barely enough room for two vehicles to pass each other… and you end up just ‘missing the shoulder’. The front right wheel drops off the shoulder and then the brakes don’t really work on loose gravel and off you go… sliding down the embankment.

      At the moment, however, there are no reports of another vehicle charging UP Woods Canyon Road and causing the scenario above. It just simply ‘looks’ like that might have been a possibility from what is seen in the crash-site photographs and videos.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> So let me get this straight, after the crash the 3 firefighters get out of the truck
      >> and are overrun by the fire nearby while the single firefighter stays in the
      >> truck and gets severely burned.

      Current reports suggest it was the other way around.

      The 3 who died stayed in the truck and one of them ( Daniel Lyon ) got out and ran but was burned on over 60 percent of his body by the time he crawled back up to Woods Canyon Road.

      The best piece of public evidence that this is what happened comes from the Seattle Times and what they published of the ‘Dispatch Records’ and a ‘Supplemental Report’ they also supposedly obtained.

      That ‘Supplemental Report’ was supposedly a standard Police Report filed by Okanogan County Sheriff’s Deputy Ottis Buzzard, who actually helped the Coroner retrieve the bodies from ( according to his report ) INSIDED the Engine.

      NOTE: The Seattle Times has yet to publish this actual ”Supplemental Report’ coming from Deputy Buzzard. They have only ‘reported’ on its contents. See link to article below.

      Deputy Buzzard’s report seems to make it clear that the 3 deceased firefighters were INSIDE the Engine and he also adds the detail that all the plastic doors handles were melted so they had to pry the doors open even to just ( exact quote from the report ) ” retrieve the bodies FROM the burned Forest Service fire engine”.

      The Seattle Times
      Article Title: Dispatch records show timeline of fatal fire
      Originally published August 27, 2015 at 6:40 am Updated August 27, 2015 at 11:04 pm
      http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dispatch-records-show-minute-by-minute-account-of-fatal-fire/

      From the bottom of the article ( after the ‘timeline’ )…
      ————————————————————————-
      A supplemental report added to the dispatch log a few days later included a description of the accident scene by a deputy who helped the county coroner retrieve the bodies from the burned Forest Service fire engine.

      The door handles of the engine had burned away, so one of the doors had to be pried open to gain access to the vehicle, Deputy Ottis Buzzard wrote.
      ————————————————————————-

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> Why did he stay in the truck?

      Actually… there are still SOME reports out there that the one Firefighter who was severely burned but survived ( Daniel Lyon ) actually DID stay in the Engine… but only managed to crawl back up to Woods Canyon Road AFTER the fire burned over the Engine.

      He suffered 3rd degree burns over 50 to 75 percent of his body.

      So it seems those burns happened either while he was in the Engine, and then he crawled out of the Engine… or he sustained those horrific burns just trying to get back up the slope to Woods Canyon Road WHILE the Engine was being burned over.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> Why did the others leave the truck?

      See above. The best evidence so far is that the 3 who died NEVER left the Engine.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> Could the others have possibly lived if they stayed put?

      It looks very much like even though the Engine didn’t go very far off the road… it actually came to rest in the middle of some kind of already-burning inferno. Google Earth shows a LOT of vegetation there in that ‘draw’ just below the road and it was probably already engulfed in flames before they even hit that curve in the road.

      The smoke on the road, at that point, was probably just a WALL and visibility was at absolute ZERO as they tried to navigate that part of the road.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> I’m quiet confused how this whole mess went. down.
      >> As stated quite a bit here, why were they up there anyway?

      That is still a total mystery.

      There is already PLENTY of evidence to suggest that even HOURS before this incident, Chief Don Waller of Okanogan County Fire District #6 was well aware that NO ONE should dare go up that road… even before the wind changed.

      Before the wind changed… a man was begging him to let him go up there to rescue his two dogs and Chief Waller refused. He ONLY let the man go up there after observing the fire for 20 minutes and only then in the company of a volunteer FF and only in the volunteer’s truck.

      They were up and back in 5 minutes… and they saved the 2 dogs.

      But this was before the incident even went to ‘Unified Command’.

      It appears that the moment the Okanogan Forest Engine(s) arrived and the Washington State Department of Natural Resources people were also on scene… Chief Don Waller wasn’t ‘in charge’ anymore and they just set about doing whatever THEY wanted to do.

      There was absolutely no Forest Land or WA DNR land up there on Woods Canyon Road.

      Only PRIVATE PROPERTY and PRIVATE RESIDENCES.

      The men actually died on the same parcel of private property with the same address as the first 911 caller reporting that fire… “37 Woods Canyon Road”.

      As for the OTHER 3 ( or 4? or 5? ) Firefighters who were, in fact, burned in the same incident but not even badly enough to be held overnight in the hospital…

      …NO ONE seems to know ( yet ) who THEY were… or what THEY were doing up there, either.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        ** DANIEL LYON WAS IN THE REAR-LEFT SEAT OF THE ENGINE

        Daniel Lyon’s parents, Dan and Barbara Lyon, live in Stevensville, Montana.

        The newspaper “The Missoulian” ( Published in Missoula, Montana ) ran an article on August 27, 2015 that also contained confirmation that the bodies of the 3 other firefighters who died in Twisp were found INSIDE the burned vehicle.

        There was also a bit of detail in this article that I haven’t seen anywhere else.

        This article says that Daniel Lyon ( who survived but with 3rd degree burns over 60 percent of his body ) was definitely sitting in the REAR-LEFT SEAT of the Engine.

        Still not known if he received his burns while still sitting in the Engine with the others, or when he exited the vehicle… or (perhaps) at BOTH times.

        The Missoulian
        Article Title: Stevensville family thankful of support of firefighter
        son burned in Washington
        Published: August 27, 2015 6:00 am – By PERRY BACKUS
        http://missoulian.com/news/local/stevensville-family-thankful-of-support-of-firefighter-son-burned-in/article_c9748740-380b-52e7-bc11-51ca686ec907.html

        From the article…
        ——————————————————————-
        STEVENSVILLE – The only survivor of a four-person engine crew that was caught in a fast-moving wildfire last week in Washington state is fighting for his life in a Seattle hospital with burns over 60 percent of his body.

        His parents, Dan and Barbara Lyon of Stevensville, want their community and nation to know they appreciate the outpouring of support that has come their way since the accident.

        This was Daniel Lyon’s first year as a wildland firefighter.

        The 25-year-old was a member of a small engine crew protecting homes near Twisp, Washington, when the winds shifted 180 degrees. The vehicle missed a curve on the narrow road and went down a 40-foot embankment.

        The fire overtook the engine and the bodies of three firefighters – Tom Zbyszewski, Andrew Zajac and Rick Wheeler – were found inside the burned vehicle.

        Lyon was sitting in the rear-left seat of the crashed vehicle.

        He somehow managed to walk away from the scene.

        Physicians told the couple that their son passed a major milestone after surviving the first 72 hours, but he’s now struggling with a new infection.

        “When you’re burned over 60 percent of your body, there’s just enough skin left for them to do what they need to do,” Lyon said. “We just tell him that this is a setback and that he fought his way through it to survive. We now have to get him through this tough time.”
        ——————————————————————-

        Reply

  117. This post is a little off topic, especially considering the serious nature of WTKTT’s latest posts, but I have gone off topic many times before. If you have been following our little experiment in social media for more than two years now, then you know that I occasionally disagree with Bob Powers, just as I have disagreed with almost everyone else at some point.

    BUT…at the end of the day, I will always defer to Bob, based on his experience, training and common sense regarding all critical matters. Bob and many others like him, some of whom regularly contribute or simply read this blog, played major roles in helping to build the fire program that I inherited and I benefited greatly from their dedication and hard work by standing on their shoulders (and if you have seen photos of me as a wildland firefighter, well then…you know that was a herculean task – more self-deprecating humor).

    Just as I tried to help build the fire program for those who came after me. In fact, three Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses who followed me all worked for me as hotshots and two of them started with me as FNG hotshots. But this post isn’t about me, it’s about Bob and so many others like him and I just want to say…thanks. It was an E Ticket Ride! And if I could do it all over again, I would…except I would try harder to get it right next time!

    May God Bless America and all Wildland Firefighters! Amen.

    Reply

    • Historical Note: I never thought about it before, but the fact that I was followed on the Santa Fe Hotshots by three crew bosses who worked for me, means that the ways of Bill Buck and the mighty Coconino continued in New Mexico long after Bill passed from being a living legend to merely being a legend. I know there are people out there reading this blog who knew and remember Bill…and you know exactly what I am talking about!

      Reply

  118. **
    ** JUST FYI… THERE WAS, IN FACT, A DEPLOYMENT IN THE RECENT INCIDENT
    ** WHERE 4 HELITACK WERE BURNED.IN THE IA STAGE OF THE ‘VALLEY’ FIRE…..

    The Press Democrat, Santa Rosa, California
    Article Title: Burned firefighters were ‘out-gunned’ by Valley fire
    Published: September 15, 2015, 5:59PM
    http://www.pressdemocrat.com/news/4479021-181/burned-firefighters-were-out-gunned-by?gallery=4483828

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————-
    Trained to jump off helicopters and launch early attacks on wildfires with only the tools on their backs, four firefighters took off from the Boggs Mountain Helitack Base in a Super Huey chopper Saturday during the Valley fire’s first explosive moments.

    Firefighters Niko Matteoli, Richard Reiff, Logan Pridmore and Capt. Pat Ward hit the ground on the northern slope of Cobb Mountain in Lake County and went head-to-head with the fire, which would rip through more than 40,000 acres in its first eight hours.

    In that first hour, the inferno’s flames overtook them, forcing the men to seek shelter in cocoon-like protective tents in a harrowing scene with fire burning all around them.

    “Just four guys, they go right to the head of the fire, that’s what they’re trained to do,” said Matteoli’s grandfather, Ron Matteoli of Santa Rosa, a retired career firefighter with Cal Fire. “It was so big and explosive; They were out-gunned.”

    The men suffered significant second-degree burns. The worst were sustained by their captain, Ward, who was the last to take shelter because he made sure the other firefighters were protected, according to Matteoli, who spent days at the hospital with his grandson.

    “They were on the ground in the very early stages of initial attack,” Mathisen said. “That shows you how erratic the fire conditions were, how erratic the wind conditions were; it was explosive out there.”

    Mathisen said he couldn’t provide information about how long the firefighters had been on the ground when they called for help because those details were part of the investigation by a specialized team brought in to review major injuries and accidents.

    The Valley fire was first reported at 1:24 p.m. Saturday at a property on High Valley Road west of Bottle Rock Road near Alder Creek.

    “I know that area, I fought fire in that area many times, it’s all heavy brush, pines, some of the most heavy fuels and dry conditions,” Ron Matteoli said. “I’ll tell you, it turns into a wall of flame.”
    ———————————————————————-

    The ‘High Valley Road’ area off of ‘Bottle Creek Road’ just west of Cobb, California ( in Lake County California ) is just like the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ area in Twisp, Washington.

    Total RESIDENTIAL and PRIVATE PROPERTY.

    It’s even confirmed in the article that ( just like in Twisp ) the first call came from a
    PROPERTY owner up on ‘High Valley Road’…

    “The Valley fire was first reported at 1:24 p.m. Saturday at a property on High Valley Road west of Bottle Rock Road near Alder Creek.”

    The ‘Boggs Mountain State Forest’, where these Helitack were stationed, is many miles
    away to the EAST of the town of Cobb.

    So just like Twisp… these 4 FFs ended up DEPLOYING on PRIVATE PROPERTY.

    It also looks like either there was a very poor choice of a DEPLOYMENT location ( inadequate choices made ) or there was more ‘fail’ on the part of the fire shelters… or BOTH.

    Reply

    • Just as with Twisp, Washington… the ‘Lake County’ California Tax Assessor’s office has interactive Google Map style software for looking at property parcels in Lake County.

      That link is here…

      http://gispublic.co.lake.ca.us/flexviewer/index.html

      If you zoom down to ‘Cobb’…and then follow ‘Bottle Creek Road’ west out to ‘High Valley Road’ where the deployment took place… you will see that EVERYTHING in that area is PRIVATE PROPERTY.

      Reply

      • Sorry, typo above.

        You need to follow ‘Bottle Rock Road’ out west from the town of ‘Cobb’, not ‘Bottle Creek Road’.

        The deployment was out on ‘High Valley Road’ west of Cobb, near Alder Creek.

        Reply

        • I have said before and I will say again—-

          You put your self in a position where you have to rely on a fire shelter you have a
          50/50 chance to survive.

          You stuck your cornered you have no place to go you have seconds to find a cleared area big or small that’s all you got. You put your self in a bad place no way out no time to wish you had planed ahead. Deploy and pray 50/50 They survived others haven’t.

          Nothing beats following the 10 and 18 before you hit the ground.
          This is another IA fail that should never have happened.
          Frontal attack on a fire in California this time of year even with out the drought is absolute folly.

          I read an article the other day that the Compute modeling on spread is not even keeping up with these fires with its projections due to drought, historic dry fuel beds and weather predictions.

          After all the Running fire burning erratic and fast thru these fuel’s why in gods name would a 4 Man Helitack crew think they could do any thing with a fire that moved at that speed. The big dog was eating when they hit the ground.
          No safety zones no escape no Look Out what were they thinking????????

          IA is the highest risk time for a wild land fire fighter. For get for one second one rule and its all over. Injuries close calls the Twisp Fire and this one 8 burned FF’s and 3 dead. The detail Captain who died scouting again IA.

          I can guarantee you the safety notices and warnings are out there and daily in fire camps and on computer notices. Weather forecasts as well daily 2 or 3 times and yet —Risk a lot to Save a lot—-WTF–WTF—WTF

          Reply

          • Too much reliance on those blankets reminds me of the system tied to a uranium miners belt. It looked similar to a canteen and was totally in the way hanging off your belt considering you had a 9 inch pipe wrench and a 8-12 hour battery for your head light hanging there as well. I never knew why the hell they had it since no one ever much knew how to use the damn thing and if you were caught in a low spot and did breath in colorless radon gas you were dead anyway. The gas is so heavy that you can’t exhale it once it is in the lungs so it would be an exercise in futility to try to use it and the four miners that died from it when I worked in Grants –two had gone down into a low spot and succumbed, then two more rushed down to drag them out without thinking of what might have killed them and they died as well–all with those damned cans hanging off their belts. The idea was you used your head around uranium and stayed out of low spots and dead end drifts unless there was plenty ventilation being blown in. It comes down to common sense that you talk about–if there is a fire you are not going to control anyway and the winds are about to change with the fire in close proximity and especially there was no look out left on the north end of the bowl where he could see that fire from the safety of the boulders, then would you not back off from dropping off in a trap while attempting to outrun a fire in the damndest tangle of brush one could imagine to encounter.

            I am amazed at how many people think they could have made any headway through that brush. Josh Ells was one of the few I gave an example to trying to fight through just 50 or so yards of a spot that was unburned on the lower part of that mountain side. Neither of us had any significant pack but he got the idea and wanted to try no more of that ordeal after just that small distance. The canyon they went down had even worse growth and much old mashed down limbs where bear and dear had mashed down areas–what I call bear wallows. The brush is lies parallel to the ground from those wallows and is impossible to pass through so that you wound up back tracking and much like being in a maze you had to find places to go around and even in those places you found yourself on your belly like a snake getting under areas to get through. That canyon would have qualified as one of the finest areas to train marine and army for basic belly crawling that is done. You wouldn’t need a drill sergeant kicking your ass down in such area. Joy and I know because we went through that brush early morning and her photos prove the denseness of the brush. She was worried about coming eyeball to eyeball with a rattler if we went straight up since she had relocated rattlers with Snake man along that two track some four years before. I think they dumped out some 48 rattlers up there and she figured they were still along that ridge where the men went down. Well I know that in four years rattlers would have spread out and most were likely miles from there original drop. Either way would not have mattered from our location–but she won out and we did more brush that day than was necessary. I though it would be a good lesson to her but by the time we met Marsh it might have been a good lesson to me for having allowed myself to fight so much extra brush and considering that the heat of the day was already up near a 100 degrees.

            So considering the usefulness of fire retardant blankets in such and area one might say that they could be more of a hindrance than of real value. They might also give a sense of false security believing that they give you a 50-50 chance in a no win situation. If you had no blanket at all you might just say there is no damn way I am going to fight brush like that even if I do have some sawyers that might not hit a rock with their chain saws and be able to clear and stack some brush around me. I think instead a shovel and get into the sand draw and dig like hell and cover with sand but in their instance they did have the 70 yards of boulders to run to.

            Would have been my civilian choice as I did keep Joy near the boulders with that in mind knowing we did not have fire blankets, helicopter retrieval, atvs and radios to know what was happening with the fire. On the opposite side of that range the vegetation is generally sparse except down some canyons. Apparently the upward winds from the West keep the moisture more to the eastern side–but I thought they would have known that with all those copters running around and bosses in them. So you wonder why they did not exit that way until you hear those famous words of Willis–that is what they do–they protect structures–they just could not sit there on their buns believing they might be able to save some structures.

            Reply

  119. Sonny said “I don’t know about fighting fires alongside a woman. I damn sure wouldn’t mine next to one nor log either. It is not being sexist but certain jobs seem to demand too much for the estrogen types. But fire fighting I can’t say. Only you fellows that have worked by them can give some opinion. Now mind you, there are likely some exceptions. I once heard there was a man who had his wife working along side him as a contract miner. I never actually saw that but assume that it wasn’t a lie. Had that happened in Fierro, New Mexico where I was a raise miner, the whole bunch of Mexican miners would have walked off the job. They had a superstition that a woman underground was bad luck and would get someone killed. Well it happened one got his head in a hydraulic ore shute door and he likely did not look too good in the coffin with a pan cake head. Maybe there was a woman there that day.”

    And I replied “That’s exactly what I am talking about Sonny, that story is priceless.”

    FYI – Sonny and I share a special bond because he worked in the very underground uranium mine my father was killed in near Grants, New Mexico. It’s a small world.

    Reply

    • I was too little to remember, but they had a closed casket funeral for my father. Safety on the job is not just a theoretical exercise for me.

      Reply

  120. At the risk of appearing as though I am someone who just can’t let this alone, I do want to make one other salient point on the subject of wildland firefighters battling wildfires in subdivisions.

    In my day we were trained not to deploy our fire shelters anywhere near our fire line gear such as nylon packs and equipment such as chainsaws. I now find it painfully ironic that wildland firefighters recently found themselves in a situation where they needed to deploy their fire shelters INSIDE GARGAGES ATTACHED TO HOMES!

    I have really been having a hard time processing that information and making sense of it.

    Reply

  121. After reviewing WTKTT’s latest posts regarding the Twisp Fire, I am going to share my thoughts on the subject through an excerpt from the book I will never finish, “The Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter, that I am going to write…right now.

    “I don’t believe the U.S Forest Service Officials who worked so hard to help create and implement the Incident Command System (ICS) ever foresaw the deaths of so many wildland firefighters dying needlessly as they hopelessly try to battle raging wildfires inside subdivisions so far from National Forests. And if they did, I hope there is a special place in hell waiting for them. ICS and the Law Of Unintended Consequences now walk hand in hand through our worst nightmares.”

    Whoa…I think this paragraph is a real keeper!

    Reply

  122. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE
    **
    ** CRITICALLY INJURED FF DANIEL LYON MAKING SLOW PROGRESS,
    ** BUT PROGRESS NONE-THE-LESS.

    The family of Daniel Lyon, the firefighter who was so critically injured on Woods Canyon Road in Twisp on August 19, 2015, held a press conference recently.

    Daniel Lyon is not ‘out of the woods’ yet.

    He has had 6 ( SIX ) surgeries already… is in constant pain… and post-op infection(s) still pose a very real and present danger for him and his survival.

    But they say he IS ‘making progress’.

    His parents also said he basically still has no idea what happened to any of his crewmates a month ago. Apparently, no one has told him… and he hasn’t bothered to ask, either.

    And he certainly hasn’t talked to any ‘investigators’ yet… and probably won’t for quite a long time ( if ever ).

    The Associated Press
    Article Title: Family, doctor say injured firefighter making slow progress
    Published: Sep. 1, 2015 6:37 PM EDT
    By DONNA GORDON BLANKINSHIP, Associated Press
    http://bigstory.ap.org/article/442c8646c41044a4a7a811ce996a6d62/family-doctor-say-injured-firefighter-making-slow-progress

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————————
    SEATTLE (AP) — The firefighter severely injured in a Washington wildfire flare-up that killed three of his comrades is making progress, but he’s not out of danger yet.

    His doctor and parents said at a news conference on Tuesday in Seattle at Harborview Medical Center that Daniel Lyon is responding well to his treatment. But the 25-year-old is in constant pain from the treatment of burns he suffered over 60 percent of his body on Aug. 19 and infections are a constant worry for burn victims.

    “The progress is there and it’s measurable, but I’ll feel a lot better when he’s healed the skin graft and is walking the halls,” said Dr. Tom Phan. “I don’t want to take anything for granted at this point.”

    Pham predicted Lyon would spend at least another two months in the hospital healing from skin grafts and training his body to move again. Pham says he expects Lyon to have a full recovery and return to work and life.

    Daniel and Barbara Lyon say their son is just starting to regain his sense of humor and really appreciates the messages they read to him from people around the state and the nation.

    Daniel Lyon told about the first chip of ice his son was given. The first one shot out of his mouth. After the second chip, he said, “This is absolutely the best ice cube I’ve ever had in my life,” his dad recalled.

    “He wanted the recipe,” his mom added. The nurse told him it was a secret family recipe.

    His parents both seemed relatively upbeat at the news conference but acknowledged that their son is in a lot of pain and could barely communicate. When they read the emails and letters he has received, their son waves his hands to keep them reading, his mother said. She asked that people keep those letters coming.

    “He responds that he knows we love him and that we’re in the room,” Daniel Lyon said.

    They said he hasn’t been told any details about the Twisp River Fire and hasn’t asked for information. The only people who have been allowed to visit are family members and his doctors and nurses.

    “I have my good days and my bad days,” Barbara Lyon said. “When he’s good, I’m good.”

    Daniel Lyon confirmed that their son was injured during his first summer as a wildland firefighter and that despite the training firefighters receive, as parents, they worried about him constantly.

    He’s also a reserve police officer, likes motorcycle riding, mountain climbing, kayaking and anything outdoors, his father said.

    “Whatever will make mom upset, he does. He’s a young man who wants to do it all,” Daniel Lyon said.
    ——————————————————————————————

    Reply

  123. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE
    **
    ** DISPATCH AUDIO RECORDINGS REVEAL MORE THAN THE TRANSCRIPTS DID.
    **
    ** FIREFIGHTER ON SCENE TELLS DISPATCH…
    **
    ** “IF THE WIND CHANGES… THIS COULD GET REALLY STUPID, REALLY FAST”

    A number of media outlets have obtained the ‘actual’ Okanogan County Dispatch Center audio recordings from the afternoon of August 19, 2015, when 3 firefighters died and others were injured ( one critically ) on Woods Canyon Road in Twisp, WA.

    These audio recordings have more in them than was ever originally reported by the Associated Press, who were the first to obtain the 911 calls.

    These recordings are also MORE than just the 911 calls.

    They are actual audio recordings made at the Okanogan County Dispatch Center which include the 911 calls, but ALSO include some recordings of the Dispatchers discussing things amongst themselves, some ‘reports’ to Dispatch from firefighters on the scene, and despite being told to ‘keep it off the radio’… the actual notification to the Okanogan County Coroner’s Office was also recorded.

    Honoring the ‘one link per post’ rule… I’ll post the links to the sites as separate ‘Replies’ to this message.

    Reply

    • ** TWISP DISPATCH RECORDINGS
      **
      ** KIRO 7 – TV – DISPATCH AUDIO RECORDINGS

      This one doesn’t have anything that the original Associated Press transcripts didn’t have, except for two things…

      1. The caller who the Associated press reported saying “We got three dead forest service firefighters, OK, so you need to notify the coroner,” is now being positively identified as Okanogan Counry Sheriff Frank Rogers.

      2. The Associated Press transcripts said that someone was telling Dispatch to call the Coroner but to ‘not use the radio… call him on the phone’… but these new recordings actually have almost the full notification call with the Coroner recorded so the Dispatchers must have ignored that directive and just used one of the radio channels being recorded, anyway.

      KIRO 7 – TV
      Article Title: After firefighters died, 911 calls detail emotion and resolve
      Posted: 9:17 p.m. Friday, Aug. 28, 2015, by Nick McGurk
      Updated: 11:16 p.m. Friday, Aug. 28, 2015
      http://www.kirotv.com/news/news/after-firefighters-died-911-calls-detail-emotion-a/nnS6w/

      VIDEO: Contains some selected Dispatch audio recordings.

      From the article…
      —————————————————————————-
      OKANOGAN COUNTY, Wash.

      Just-released 911 calls from Okanogan County reveal difficult conversations from dispatchers as a fire raced near Twisp and three firefighters lay dead.

      “We got three dead forest service firefighters, OK, so you need to notify the coroner,” said Sheriff Frank Rogers, with Okanogan County, to a dispatcher on Aug. 19.

      Richard Wheeler, Andrew Zajac, and Tom Zbyszewski, U.S. Forest Service firefighters, were dead after fighting a fire near Twisp.

      “There’s three dead ones, multiple burned ones, says a voice over dispatch in recordings obtained by KIRO 7 from the Okanogan County Sheriff.

      Frantic residents were also calling about the fire moving toward their homes.

      “I just looked up the hill and the fire is coming up right towards my house,” said one woman to a dispatcher as she pleaded for help to arrive.

      The fast-moving fire also left four firefighters injured as they tried to escape by foot.

      One call between first responders reveals the emotional response:

      “They’re needing you to go up to 37 Woods Canyon Road, they have three deceased forest service firefighters up there,” says the dispatcher.

      “Oh, God,” the man says.

      “Yeah.”

      “OK.”

      “And the IC [incident commander] should be up there. There were four other ones burned but they’ve been transported, so…” says the woman, trailing off.

      “That’s terrible,” he says.
      —————————————————————————-

      Reply

    • ** TWISP DISPATCH RECORDINGS
      **
      ** Q13 FOX NEWS

      This one has some audio recordings that were definitely NOT reported in the original Associated Press transcripts.

      Notably…

      1. There is an exchange between Dispatchers themselves where one is telling the other someone just called in and asked for a Level 3 evacuation of Twisp. Another voice then says “Level 3 is the highest there is”. Then the first voice says “Yea… I’m thinking we just do notifications instead”.

      So apparently some Dispatcher was arbitrarily deciding that a requested Level 3 evacuation wasn’t ‘necessary’. Luckily… no one died because of this.

      2. Someone who appears to have been an actual on-scene Firefighter describes in detail to the Dispatcher what the fire was doing, and that if the wind changed things were going to get (quote) “Really STUPID… Really QUICK”.

      Q13 FOX NEWS
      Article Title: 911 calls released from fatal Twisp fire:
      ‘The fire is headed right towards my house!’
      Posted 9:49 PM, August 28, 2015, by Alexandra Lewis
      Updated at 10:27pm, August 28, 2015
      http://q13fox.com/2015/08/28/911-calls-released-from-the-twisp-fire/

      VIDEO: Selected audio recordings from Okanogan County Dispatch Center.

      From the accompanying article…
      ———————————————————————————
      TWISP, Wash. — For the first time, we’re hearing 911 calls from the fire near Twisp — messages for help in the moments three firefighters lost their lives.

      As the fire spreads, you can hear chaos erupt as the calls get more frequent.

      “There`s a fire on Wood Creek heading up the hill. I just looked out my window and the fire is headed right towards my house!” one 911 caller said.

      That August afternoon, the Okanogan Complex Fire was on its way to becoming the biggest in state history. Evacuation orders were soon to follow.

      “Wind shifted and he wants Level 3 evacuations for Twisp,” one first responded says to another, referring to the level of mandatory evacuations.
      ———————————————————————————

      Some actual transcripts from the VIDEO / AUDIO that accompanies this article…

      NOTE: The line in the print copy about the ‘Level 3 evacuations for Twisp’ was paraphrasing what was actually said in the audio recording… which is the following…

      +0:44
      Female Dispatcher: The Wind shifted and he wants evacuation notices done to Twisp.
      Male Voice: But Level 3 is the HIGHEST.
      Female Dispatcher: Well, that’s what he said… but I’m thinkin’ just notification.

      +0:50

      NOTE: The ‘Male Voice’ reporting to the Dispatcher here about how if the wind changes things could get ‘Real STUPID, Real QUICK’ appears to be a firefighter on the scene out at Woods Canyon Road… and this report he is giving seems to have come well BEFORE the 180 degree wind shift…

      Male Voice: There’s no way they’re gonna stop this fire.This thing is… this… this fire… this fire is gonna do whatever it wants.
      Female Dispatcher: I see.
      Male Voice: The wind right now is in our favor ‘cus it’s pushing it into the wilderness.
      Female Dispatcher: Ah.
      Male Voice: It’s not particularly strong. It’s 5 or 6 miles an hour.
      Female Dispatcher: Yea.
      Male Voice: Uhmm… if it… uh… if it gets much stronger or it changes direction this could get really STUPID, really QUICK.

      +1:11
      Reporter (Alexandra Lewis): The audio story paints a chaotic picture of emergency responders trying to fight a battle they weren’t equipped to win.

      +01:17
      Male Voice: All units on Twisp River Road. Clear the road… for the ambulance.

      +01:22
      Female Dispatcher 1: She’s transporting one to the airport right now… for a burn victim.
      Female Dispatcher 2: ( Irritated ) He said “Can we have Emergency Management come over here” and I asked him WHY?… and he’s not answering back.
      Female Dispatcher 1: They need the power turned off on…. uh… the… Twisp River Road.
      Female Dispatcher 3: We just got a call for… uh… some injured firefighters at the Twisp Airport?
      Female Dispatcher 1: They had… uh… multiple firefighter entrapments… but.. uh… the (winds?) keep shifting.
      Female Dispatcher 3: One firefighter?… or multiple?
      Female Dispatcher 2: I have no confirmation yet on how many firefighters I have injured.
      Female Dispathcer 1: The wind just shifted again and heading towardsTwisp.

      +1:58
      Reporter (Alexandra Lewis): As the fire unexpectedly changed directions outside of Twisp… three firefighters were killed. They tried to escape in their van but crashed and were engulfed in flames.

      +2:08
      Male Voice: Uhm… yea… we’ve got some injured… possibly deceased… but.. uhm… we don’t have all the information yet.

      Reply

  124. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S NEW PSEUDO ‘PRESS RELEASES’??

    Just in the 14 days or so since Brendan McDonough’s interview with Bill Gabbert where he finally admits that he has always been withholding important information from Yarnell Hill Fire Investigators… Brendan has made a number of completely PUBLIC ‘announcements’ on his Facebook page that almost take the form of mini-pseudo ‘press-releases’.

    Brendan still lists his ‘occupation’ on his Facebook page as ‘Public Figure’… and these postings are as ‘public’ as they can be. You don’t even need to be logged into Facebook *OR* even have any kind of Facebook account in order to read these ‘announcements’ that he has marked ‘totally PUBLIC’.

    I have no problem re-posting links to them here because the way they are written it would appear that Brendan intended for them to have as wide a ‘readership’ base as possible.

    So here they are ( and I suppose this will be his ‘style’ of posting as long as he is listing his occupation as ‘Public Figure’ ).

    Because of the ‘one link per post’ rule… I’m going to post these Brendan McDonough ‘announcements’ as separate ‘Replies’ below with a links to the (full) original Facebook ‘announcement’s.

    Basically… the announcements were…

    1. He will be officially ‘representing’ a commercial product. Camillus Knives.

    2. He was just the guest speaker to a National Guard Unit that impressed him by having both ‘structural’ and ‘wildland’ firefighting equipment.

    3. Brendan’s own official ‘We shall never forget’ announcement on September 11, 2015.

    Brendan’s top level Facebook (home) page is here…

    https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough

    Reply

    • **
      ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH ACCEPTS ROLE ‘REPRESENTING’
      ** AT LEAST ONE COMMERCIAL PRODUCT LINE…

      Just 8 days after Brendan McDonough’s interview with Bill Gabbert was published and Brendan finally admitted that had always been withholding information from the Yarnell Hill Fire investigators… Brendan announced on his public Facebook page that he is now officially ‘representing’ at least one line of commercial product(s).

      Camillus Knives.

      On September 8 ( a week ago ), Brendan posted the following on his public Facebook page, where he still describes himself as having an occupation of ‘Public Figure’…

      ————————————————————————————–
      Brendan Mcdonough – September 8, 2015

      Huge shout out to Camillus knives for inviting me to be apart of there pro staff.
      Couldn’t of been more honored to be asked to represent Camillus. If you have a
      Camillus knife let me know what you think and if you don’t ill do the same.
      Take care and have blessed week everyone.

      Comments…

      John Alexander – September 8 at 11:50am
      I’ve got one of their machetes. Love it!

      Brendan Mcdonough – September 8 at 11:54am
      I think it’s awesome, let me say holy cow is the saw on it sharp as no other.
      ————————————————————————————

      The link to the page ( with a photograph ) is below.

      NOTE: This is a totally PUBLIC posting on McDonough’s part. You don’t even need to be a member of Facebook or even logged into Facebook in order to see this ‘public announcement’ from Brendan…

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=516388861861310

      Reply

    • **
      ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH – GUEST SPEAKER FOR NATIONAL GUARD UNIT

      And just yesterday Brendan posted a totally PUBLIC message on his Facebook page reporting about his gig as a guest speaker to a National Guard Unit just last weekend.

      He was impressed that this National Guard Unit has BOTH ‘structural’ AND ‘wildland’ firefighting equipment.

      ————————————————————————————–
      Brendan Mcdonough added 2 new photos.
      September 14, 2014, at 9:49am

      I spoke this past weekend for a national guard unit.

      Highly trained and very experienced firefighters as they have wildland rigs and structure rigs.

      It was such a honor to meet them and spend the time with them talking about life.

      They surprised me with this plaque ( photo included ) and I couldn’t have been more proud to receive it. Within the event they had 19 framed and pictured bios at all of the tables of my brothers and it was amazing to see how they wanted to continue on there legacy and so many others.

      Thanks again 937th/938th. Tell next time brothers
      ————————————————————————————————–

      The link to original posting is below.

      Again… this is a totally PUBLIC posting on Brendan’s part. You don’t have to be logged into Facebook or even have an account at Facebook to see this PUBLIC posting and the pictures he took to go with it…

      https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/posts/518933831606813

      Reply

    • **
      ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S 911 ANNIVERSARY ANNOUNCEMENT

      Again… no Facebook account needed to view this totally PUBLIC ‘announcement’ coming from Brendan McDonough.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=517524325081097

      —————————————————————————————–
      Brendan Mcdonough – September 11, 2015

      Photo Caption: WE WILL NEVER FORGET

      Brave Hero’s, Firefighters who paid the ultimate sacrifice when our nation came under attack. They stood for what they believed in tell there very last second, just as my brothers had done. The 343 Firefighters that died that day will never be forgotten in my life or my families. My children will grow old knowing the sacrifices our men and women of this country have made and will continue to make. They will know who my brothers were, not just 19 but the men and women who every day inspire me.
      —————————————————————————————–

      Reply

      • I have to admit, our hapless hero is doing a pretty remarkable job as a public figure that I could never pull off. I guess it just took this event to bring everything into place for him. God Bless America!

        Reply

        • What does it mean to be on the ‘pro staff’ for a Sporting Goods company like Camillus Knives?

          If he is officially ‘representing’ them… does he get sales kickbacks?

          Reply

          • If I had to take a guess, which I don’t but I will anyway. He is not being paid for sales, but he is on a retainer to be available to go to knife shows, sporting goods conventions, hunting and fishing products demonstrations.

            And since our hapless hero does not have any known skill sets that would lend itself to being any kind of professional representative for this company, such as a well known knife designer or maker, a world class hunter or fisherman or camping or hiking guide of any kind, my guess is that he is selling his status as the “Lone Survivor” and so Camillus Knives can advertise come to the Las Vegas Convention Center and see our new line of knives for this year and meet the Lone Survivor. And for special appearances, my guess is that he would be paid bonuses on top of his yearly retainer to say good things about Camillus Knives on his blog or wherever.

            In other words, he is doing exactly what he was doing last year when I was so critical of his employment with the Wildland Firefighters Foundation when I said that was not healthy for him and it would not last. He is continuing to make a living by being a victim and using his luck as a survivor when all of his “brothers” died to enrich himself, which once again, I don’t think is healthy. Like I said last year, his best shot was to stay with the Prescott Fire Department, they owed him and I think they would have been forced to take care of him and he could have faded into a sea of blue shirts and worked to get his head straight.

            To make a long story short, our hapless hero has signed on to be a one man freak show for a knife manufacturer.

            Reply

            • Reply to Gary Olson post in September 15, 2015 at 10:15 pm

              >> Gary Olson said…
              >>
              >> He is continuing to make a living by being a victim
              >> and using his luck as a survivor when all of his “brothers”
              >> died to enrich himself, which once again, I don’t think
              >> is healthy.

              I think you are right about the ‘see you at the sports shows’ part of the ‘contract’. There’s no other reason to have a ‘pro staff’ if you can’t rely on them to ‘be there’ endorsing your product(s).

              ‘All expenses paid’ sort of thing.

              I just hope between the ‘product endorsement’ announcements and the absolute minimal ‘information dump’ Brendan just pulled off over at Gabbert’s… that he is meeting his stated goal of…

              “Setting the record straight with the Wildland FF Community”.

              Can’t wait for the book.

              I wonder what criteria really surrounds the ‘bonus’ that Brendan himself mentioned to Gabbert if the book (quote) “does well”?

              Number of books sold?… or ‘Sales figures?’… both?

              Is this a great country, or what?

              Reply

              • This Knife Manufacture is trying to get an inside sales to all the Wild Land Fire Fighters that for years Have Carried and Swore by The Buck Knife. Use a Fire Fighter to Identify with Fire Fighters.

                My thoughts—The Buck Knife has Been the Knife of choice for
                over 50 years. Got to have a Marketing tool like McDonough to get into that Market.

                Reply

              • I shouldn’t have said a “freak show” that was a little strong. I should have said a “side show”.

                “Come and meet the Lone Survivor and hear first hand his harrowing account of how he almost perished in the flames of the Yarnell Hill Fire but managed to survive when all others died because of his inner strength, determination to live and his trusty Camillus Knife by his side .”

                I’m with Bob, it’s going to take a lot to beat a Buck for a heavy duty belt folding knife but maybe Donut is the man for the job. I don’t think he is taking my advice and going to Yavapai College (I am a proud graduate of that prestigious college before really making my mark with a BS in Police Science from NAU) to learn a good trade.

                I guess I can’t really blame him, it’s probably pretty tough to go back to asking “do you want fries with that” for a living after seeing the elephant.

                Reply

  125. didntt someone think they didn’t go to the ranch until 1610 or later,,,… eric was tellin jesse how to come down to the ranch..,,,, on the radio that was the recording holly heel found???/ cell reception is bad 4 me rt now

    Reply

    • The SAIR document tried to establish they ‘left’ that ‘rest location’ and started heading south at 4:04 PM. They were totally basing that on the timestamp for the text message that Wade Parker sent his mother which also had a photo attached.

      They ( the SAIT ) were assuming that also meant that Wade took the photo at 4:04 PM and so that was some kind of proof they were still there at that ‘rest location’ as late as 4:04 PM.

      We know now that 4:04 PM is simply the moment when Parker finally got around to pressing ‘transmit’ on that text message to his mother. The photo that was attached has been proven to have actually been taken 14 minutes prior to that… at just about the same time Robert Caldwell was shooting his 3:50 PM video that captured OPS1 Todd Abel actually telling Marsh ( and Steed ) to “Hunker and be safe”.

      The actual final photo taken at that ‘rest location’ was Christopher MacKenzie’s final iPhone photo at 3:55:31.

      So they MIGHT have actually left as early as 3:55 or 3:56 PM… or as late as the SAIR established time of 4:04 PM.

      I’ve never heard of any real ‘evidence’ that they didn’t leave that ‘rest location’ until 1610 ( 4:10 PM ).

      What would have been helpful is if Mr. Bill Gabbert had had the interviewing skills to at least try and establish with Brendan a TIME when he heard this ORDER from Marsh that he now finally admits to hearing… but Mr. Gabbert did not.

      We still have no idea when, exactly, it was that Brendan heard Marsh ORDERING Steed to leave the safe black and “Make your way down here”.

      Brendan doesn’t even have to remember the exact time.

      Brendan’s whereabouts are so well-known now via the public evidence record ( and through his own photo taking ) that all he has to do is remember WHERE he was when he heard Marsh give Steed that ORDER and the TIME can be nailed down with other evidence.

      But Mr. Gabbert didn’t even get that information during his ‘interview’.

      So there is still a lot that can/should be determined about the exact timing ( and the real motivations ) that day.

      Reply

  126. Reply to SR post on September 15, 2015 at 12:48 pm

    >> SR said…
    >>
    >> Bob Powers, Gary Olson, me, WTKTT, and several others have all spoken as
    >> to how long it took GM to get from A to B to C.

    Speaking of ‘how long it took to get from A to B to C’… see below for a revisit of the timing issues, but this time based on Holly Neill’s own recently published ‘pack test’ findings.

    As a response to Brendan McDonough just recently ( finally ) admitting in public that has always been ( and STILL is? ) withholding important information from investigators, Holly Neill tried to establish that Brendan’s new statements support her theory that Marsh had, somehow, successfully ‘scouted’, ‘marked’ and ‘timed’ and ( perhaps ) ‘improved’ what she still believes was some kind of valid ‘escape route’ through an explosive fuel-filled blind box canyon within less than 1/2 mile of a dynamic, wind-driven fireline.

    And she asserts he ( Marsh ) somehow accomplished all this BEFORE actually issuing that ORDER to Jesse Steed to take those men out of that safe black and ( quoting Brendan ) “Make your way down here’.

    Based on even her OWN ‘pack test’… the ‘numbers’ below show that is basically impossible.

    Once again… from the recent Gabbert article…

    “He ( McDonough ) adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”

    The Gabbert interview was so piss-poor we still don’t know WHEN Brendan even thinks he heard that… or WHERE he was when he heard it… but that fact that he DID hear it means it could have only come in certain (small) ‘time window’… as explained down below.

    >> SR also said…
    >>
    >> We know Holly checks in here. I don’t think I was rude in asking her to give her
    >> own numbers. Having inserted herself into the thread a few days ago, she should
    >> be willing to take 15 minutes to give her take on facts that are central to whether
    >> the escape route could have been improved in the time available, and/or WAS
    >> improved, given the crew’s rate of travel.

    See below. Based on her OWN ‘pack test’ and then a ‘rework’ of the timing involved… there wasn’t even enough TIME for Marsh to have even fully ‘scouted’ the entire route BEFORE ordering Steed to take those men out of that safe black and “Make your way down here”… much less any TIME for making ‘improvements’.

    >> SR also said…
    >>
    >> It could be valuable to her to get feedback on those kinds of numbers, rather than put
    >> flawed info out in the future.

    Yes. Hopefully she will look at the ‘numbers’ below ( based on her OWN ‘pack test’ ) and have some additional comments.

    >> SR also said…
    >>
    >> If she’s NOT willing to show her basic math on such a central matter, certainly it
    >> does raise a legit question as to whether she’s being objective. There’s a bigger story
    >> here that maybe even she could write about if she say the angle, . This could be an
    >> extension of existing research on ability to travel uphill. But, first, you have to be open
    >> to actually looking at the numbers, including the painfully slow rate of travel for GM
    >> once they dropped into the bowl, which was entirely predictable.

    I believe Holly Neill did, somehow, pull off that ‘2 Hotshots with heavy packs’ test that she talked about… so that’s why I went back and reworked some numbers based on HER results this time.

    Her ‘travel rate’ ( for the clear part of the two-track ) doesn’t actually differ much from what the SAIT ‘figured out’… but is IS ‘faster’ and changes the timing enough that it deserved a second look at all that.

    But even so… her OWN ‘pack test’ results do NOT support the additional ‘theories’ she also talked about with regards to anyone ‘scouting’, ‘marking’, ‘timing’, ‘improving’ ANY route before the ORDER was give for those men to leave the safe black.

    >> SR also wrote…
    >>
    >> If by contrast Holly thinks it’s possible to zip along through dense chaparral,
    >> 1) she should get a crew and prove it in similar vegetation, and
    >> 2) that’s not what the times from the actual GM crew progress show in their case.

    Marsh could have ‘zipped along’ at upwards of 4.5 to 4.6 miles per hour for his entire journey through that maze of manzanita in the box canyon… and there STILL isn’t enough time for all the things Holly Neill wants to think happened to have happened.

    Okay… here we go… a ‘revisit’ on the TIMING involved here, but THIS time using Holly Neill’s own recently published ‘pack test’ results…

    This might take additional ‘Reply’ posts to get the ‘story’ told… but here goes…

    >> On September 3, 2015 at 11:00 am ( down below ) Holly Neill said…
    >>
    >> To be clear: My timed trial run using two hotshots with heavy packs:
    >> from MacKenzie video site to the top of deployment valley was 14:21.

    That’s 99 seconds faster than the SAIT estimate of 16 minutes.

    NOTE: The SAIT put the ‘departure’ moment at 4:04 PM and the ‘arrival’ moment at the ‘Descent Point’ at 4:20 PM for a 16 minute total travel time.

    The exact distance from where Christopher MacKenzie shot his video to the top of the deployment valley ( specifically, the exact spot where Text (Sonny) Gilligan found that burned blob of pink tape/flagging ) is…

    0.85 Mile(s) / 1,496 Yards / 4,487 Feet

    Covering that exact distance in 14 minutes and 21 seconds equates to…

    3.5540 mph / 5.7196 kmh / 312.7526 feet per minute / 5.2125 feet per second

    That’s about .4 mph faster than the SAIT’s 16 minute estimate, which worked out to…

    3.1875 mph / 5.1297 kmh / 280.4999 feet per minute / 4.6749 feet per second

    ** HOW FAR COULD MARSH HAVE GOTTEN BEFORE ORDERING STEED
    ** TO BRING GRANITE MOUNTAIN OUT OF THE SAFE BLACK?

    If Eric Marsh actually did leave the ‘anchor point’ area the moment he knew that Brian Frisby was no longer going to make it up there for the ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh had requested… then that means Marsh would have departed the anchor point no earlier than 3:41:00 PM.

    Sometime in the 60 seconds between 3:41 and 3:42 is when Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown actually did the ‘about face’ that he refers to in his own Unit Log, having just been informed by Brian Frisby that he needed to stop what he was doing and gather up some BR Hotshots to help move GM vehicles.

    Frisby made this request to Brown immediately AFTER finishing his “I’m not coming up for the face-to-face and I have your lookout and do you want us to move your vehicles?” radio conversation(s) with Marsh/Steed.

    So those radio conversations ended circa 3:41, which makes that the earliest moment when Marsh could have then turned to Steed and said something like… “There’s no point in me waiting here for Frisby anymore since he’s not coming. I’m going to head south right now and check out that way to that ranch down there. You guys just wait here and take pictures, or whatever, until I’m sure it’s OK and I’ll call you.”

    So if Marsh really did ‘take off’ heading south at 3:41:00 PM… then at the same rate of travel as Holly Neill is now reporting as her ‘test’ results for the first leg of the journey south ( tested with 2 Hotshots carrying ‘heavy’ packs ), that would have put Marsh only as far as the ‘Descent Point’ 14 minutes and 21 seconds later, at 3:55:21 PM.

    NOTE: 3:55:31 PM is when all the picture taking at the ‘rest location’ abruptly ended Christopher MacKenzie’s final iPhone photo taken at the ‘rest location’ ( Filename: IMG_2738.JPG ) was taken at exactly 3:55.31 PM. It was a network-connected iPhone so that timestamp can be considered highly accurate. MacKenzie’s Canon Digitial Camera had its own internal timestamp clock set to about 8 minutes and 16 seconds AHEAD of REAL time… so the times for anything he took with that camera that *appear* to be later than 3:55:31 PM are actually not correct. He was finished taking any photos or videos with his Canon Digital Camera BEFORE he snapped that final iPhone photo of his at 3:55:31 PM.

    So according to the ‘timing’ now being established… there are only 10 SECONDS separating the following TWO events…

    3:55:21 PM – Marsh’s predicted arrival at the actual ‘Descent Point’, based on Neill travel rate.
    3:55:31 PM – All (known) picture taking abruptly ENDS back at the ‘rest location’.

    So right between 3:55 PM and 3:56 PM might be the exact time that Steed and the Crew could have been ‘told’ to (quote) “Make their way down there”… but at that moment ( 3:55 PM ) Marsh must have been referring to the ‘Descent Point’ where he was now standing. Marsh would have now had the Boulder Springs Ranch in sight and knew the route was ‘clear’ to the point where he was standing and decided the men should start moving south towards THAT point while he was then going to descend into the box canyon and continue checking out the ‘shortcut’ route that HE ( Marsh ) had now decided would be the ‘second leg’ of the journey to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    So it makes sense that Marsh might have stopped there at the ‘Descent Point’ at 3:55:21 ( based on Neill’s own travel rate ) and radioed some kind of instructions back to Steed at that moment which then caused an abrupt END to the ‘picture taking’ session back there…

    …but accepting that as a possibility means ALSO admitting that Marsh ordered Steed and the Crew to leave the save black BEFORE he had even begun his own descent into the fuel-filled box canyon, or had any chance at all to do any ‘scouting’ or ‘marking’ or ‘timing’ or ‘improving’ of that second, most difficult part of the journey he was ordering Steed to participate in.

    So now the question still remains… how much FARTHER did Eric Marsh get on that ‘second part’ of the journey… beyond the ‘Descent Point’?

    NOTE: The actual point of this posting is not to try and establish whether or not there was time for Marsh to have simply just made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch prior to DEPLOYMENT.

    The actual point here is to ( based on KNOWN evidence ) establish WHEN Marsh might have made the radio call to Steed that Brendan McDonough is now finally admitting he heard that day to “Make your way down here”… and WHERE Marsh might have been when he made that radio call.

    Bill Gabbert’s interview with McDonough was so poor we STILL don’t have any idea WHEN Brendan heard what he now admits to hearing… or even WHERE Brendan was when he heard it. Even if Brendan doesn’t remember the time there is enough other public evidence to track his known whereabouts down to the minute. But Gabbert didn’t even get that basic information.

    The SAIR has always been trying to establish that Jesse and the Crew left the safe black and the ‘rest location’ at 4:04 PM. They have always been basing that on what they believed was the timestamp for Wade Parker’s photo.

    We know now that Wade Parker did NOT actually TAKE that photo at 4:04 PM. That is simply the moment he pressed ‘transmit’ on the text message he sent to his mother which happened to have that photo ‘attached’ to it. He actually TOOK that photo some 14 minutes earlier, right around the same moment that Robert Caldwell shot his video capturing the “Hunker and be safe” radio transmission coming from OPS1 Todd Abel.

    But let’s say the SAIR is right and Steed and the Crew did NOT actually leave that ‘rest location’ until as late as 4:04 PM.

    That means the “Make your way down here” directive from Marsh could not have come any LATER than that.

    So that leaves us the following ‘window’ for when this ORDER coming from Marsh could have happened…

    3:55:31 – Photo taking abruptly ends. Earliest moment the ORDER to move could have come.
    4:04:00 – SAIR estimate of departure. Latest moment the ORDER to move could have come.

    That’s an 8 minute and 39 second ‘window’ in-between these two possibilities.

    ( Continued next message )…

    Reply

    • ( Continuation of the message above )…

      So if Marsh was only standing at the ‘Descent Point’ at 3:55:21 ( based on Neill’s travel rate ) then even if he continued on from there without giving the “Make your way down here” ORDER to Steed at THAT point… how much farther down into the canyon could he have gotten in just another 8 minutes and 39 seconds which would be the LATEST he could have issued that ORDER to Steed?

      Well… let’s see.

      The following chart shows various travel rates covering a duration of 8 minutes and 39 seconds.

      It’s absurd to think Marsh could have maintained the same travel rate going down the slope and ‘bushwhacking’ through the canyon that he did just walking on the clear two-track from the ‘rest location’ to the ‘Descent Point’, but just for the sake of completeness the chart below begins at that same rate and just goes down from there.

      Actually… the chart BEGINS at the MPH rate that would have been required for Marsh to, in fact, make it all the way from the ‘Descent Point’ to the vicinity of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself BEFORE he ORDERED Steed to bring those men out of the black.

      As you will see below… he would have had to have been Superman to pull that off.

      Once again… here are distances involved at this point…

      Descent Point to Deployment Site: 0.27 Mi., 470 yards, 1410 feet.
      Deployment Site to Boulder Springs Ranch: 0.38 Mi., 677 yards, 2031 feet.
      Descent Point all the way to Boulder Springs Ranch: 0.65 Mi., 1147 yards, 3441 feet.

      And once again… Holly Neill’s ‘pack test’ from the ‘rest location’ to the ‘Descent Point’
      established the following ‘rate of travel’ up on the two-track…

      3.5540 mph
      5.7196 kmh
      312.7526 feet per minute
      5.2125 feet per second

      Traveling at that same ( and increasingly lower ) rates for 8 minutes and 39 seconds gives…

      The Boulder Springs Ranch was 3,441 feet from the ‘Descent Point’…
      ——————————————————————————
      4.6 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.6631 miles / 3501.16 feet.
      4.5 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.6487 miles / 3425.13 feet.
      4.4 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.6343 miles / 3349.10 feet.
      4.3 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.6199 miles / 3273.07 feet.
      4.2 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.6055 miles / 3197.04 feet.
      4.1 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5910 miles / 3120.48 feet.
      4.0 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5766 miles / 3044.44 feet.
      3.9 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5622 miles / 2968.41 feet.
      3.8 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5487 miles / 2897.13 feet.
      3.7 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5334 miles / 2816.35 feet.
      3.6 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5190 miles / 2740.32 feet.

      Begin Holly Neill pack test travel speed of 3.5 mph…
      ——————————————————————————
      3.5 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.5045 miles / 2663.76 feet.
      3.4 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4901 miles / 2587.72 feet.
      3.3 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4757 miles / 2511.69 feet.
      3.2 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4613 miles / 2435.66 feet.
      3.1 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4469 miles / 2359.63 feet.
      3.0 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4325 miles / 2283.60 feet.
      2.9 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4180 miles / 2207.04 feet.
      2.8 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.4036 miles / 2131.00 feet.
      2.7 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3892 miles / 2054.97 feet.
      2.6 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3784 miles / 1997.95 feet.
      2.5 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3604 miles / 1902.91 feet.
      2.4 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3460 miles / 1826.88 feet.
      2.3 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3315 miles / 1750.32 feet.
      2.2 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3171 miles / 1674.28 feet.
      2.1 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.3027 miles / 1598.25 feet.
      2.0 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2883 miles / 1522.22 feet.

      Deployment site was 1,410 feet from Descent Point…
      ——————————————————————————–
      1.9 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2739 miles / 1446.19 feet.
      1.8 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2595 miles / 1370.16 feet.
      1.7 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2450 miles / 1293.60 feet.
      1.6 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2306 miles / 1217.56 feet.
      1.5 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2162 miles / 1141.53 feet.
      1.4 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.2018 miles / 1065.50 feet.
      1.3 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1874 miles / 0989.47 feet.
      1.2 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1730 miles / 0913.44 feet.
      1.1 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1585 miles / 0836.88 feet.
      1.0 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1441 miles / 0760.84 feet.

      Halfway down from ‘Descent Point’ to ‘Deployment Site’…
      ——————————————————————————
      0.9 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1297 miles / 0684.81 feet.
      0.8 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1153 miles / 0608.78 feet.
      0.7 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.1009 miles / 0532.75 feet.
      0.6 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0865 miles / 0456.72 feet.
      0.5 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0720 miles / 0380.16 feet.
      0.4 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0576 miles / 0304.12 feet.
      0.3 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0432 miles / 0228.09 feet.
      0.2 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0288 miles / 0152.06 feet.
      0.1 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0144 miles / 0076.03 feet.
      0.0 mph for 8:39 achieves an additional 0.0000 miles / 0000.00 feet.
      ——————————————————————————-

      So even if Marsh had been able to maintain the same ‘first leg’ travel speed of 3.5 mph for the next 8 minutes and 39 seconds ( as he descended into the canyon ), he STILL would not have had enough time to actually reach the BSR before 4:04 PM.

      As the chart above shows… the ONLY way he could have reached the BSR by 4:04 PM from the ‘Descent Point’ is if he had somehow been able to achieve an average travel rate for that entire ‘second leg’ of the journey ( through the box canyon itself ) of between 4.5 and 4.6 miles per hour… a full 1 mile per hour faster than Holly Neill’s ‘pack test’ speed for even the absolutely CLEAR part of the high ridge two-track itself.

      I think it’s pretty safe to say that’s basically NOT possible.

      Depending on what speed you think Marsh *might* have even been able to maintain as he passed through that canyon… he still would have never made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch prior to 4:04 PM, which is the latest time that Steed could have received that ‘directive’ from Marsh to “Make your way down here”.

      So based on the EARLIEST and the LATEST times when that ORDER could have possibly come from Marsh back to Jesse Steed to bring those men OUT of the ‘safe black’… there was never enough time to even fully ‘scout’ the route before issuing that ORDER, much less enough time to do all the other things Holly Neill would like to think happened.

      At some point… Marsh decided to ORDER Steed to make that risky journey WITHOUT having fully ‘scouted’ and/or ‘timed’ and/or ‘marked’ and/or ‘improved’ that route.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        One of the (perhaps) not-so-obvious points being made above, and that the chart shows, is that even *IF* Marsh had been able to achieve a travel rate of upwards of 4.6 miles per hour in that explosive manzanita maze… and been able to maintain that rate all the way to Boulder Springs Ranch until 4:04 PM ( which is the latest time the order for Steed to leave the black could have been given )…

        …that automatically means he FAILED to successfully TIME that route.

        Successfully TIMING something that you are even pretending is an ‘escape route’ doesn’t mean…

        “How fast can I do it hauling ass and all by myself”.

        The whole point of TIMING such a critical route HAS to be based on REALITY.

        And that REALITY was asking 18 other hot, tired, exhausted men who might have even been on the verge of heat exhaustion to traverse the same route with tools and chainsaws that you didn’t even carry… and stay ‘single file’ while doing it.

        So even if ‘superman’ Marsh had put a stopwatch on his own trip all the way from the ‘anchor point’ to the vicinity of the BSR and even if he got there by 4:04 PM… that was in no way a ‘realistic’ TIMING of that route.

        Lesson Learned ( maybe for the actual back of the Pocket Guide? )

        When you TIME an escape route… be sure you do it in a REALISTIC way… or people are going to DIE.

        Reply

        • Thank you for all of the above.

          Regarding reality for an escape route, or any routefinding, spot on.

          As for Holly’s “pack test,” I’d note the same principle holds. I’d even take result from say 10 fit members of a CrossFit box or similar, but down a bowl through dense chaparral similar to that present at the YHF. There are lots of areas near that that more than qualify to get a rate of travel as a “control” in that case. Have them hump it through dense uncut brush after a half-day of exercise and heat stress, then have them do a truly “improved” escape route after that and see, even with the greater fatigue at the end of the day, the stark difference in times. The first test through the uncut brush we already know will show a time similar to the progress that GM actually made before they started up saws and tried to “burn out,” showing yet another training issue on top of the routefinding.

          Again, thank you for all those clear numbers. It should be very easy for Holly to stack those on a timeline in Excel and then, if she disagrees with the arithmetic at a specific point, to identify the breakpoint where opinions start to differ and give her reasons. My gripe is that you “assumed” the same rate of travel, which I know you did to be conservative and make a point. But, obviously, we know that in fact the rate of travel for EM and crew necessarily had to slow.

          I can’t play with Google Earth or other maps right now, but what I suspect is that if you crunch where EM MOST LIKELY was based on a REALISTIC rate of travel, that you can throw L out along with E because the geometry means L was impossible.

          Reply

          • Reply to SR post on September 15, 2015 at 3:26 pm

            >> SR said…
            >>
            >> Have them hump it through dense uncut brush after
            >> a half-day of exercise and heat stress, then have them
            >> do a truly “improved” escape route after that and see,
            >> even with the greater fatigue at the end of the day,
            >> the stark difference in times.

            Yes. Absolutely essential that any ‘benchmarking’ reflect how absolutely bone-crushing TIRED those men probably were when they were asked to attempt over a TWO MILE hike to a (suppposed) ‘Safety Zone’. Tex (Sonny) Gilligan has already testified that they all looked ‘spent’ even when he and Joy Collura first saw them that morning…

            …and I would think a man who has worked long shifts in the mines knows EXACTLY what ‘spent’ men look like.

            And that was BEFORE a full day’s work in 100+ degree full sun.

            Eric Marsh, in the other hand, wasn’t doing much at all most of the day.

            He was just standing in various places all day and talking on the radio.

            Of course he was going to make better time at EOD than men who had actually been busting their assess all day.

            Again… for him to not take THAT into account as well as far as any ‘scouting’ or ‘timing’ went just amounts to more ‘not-how-you-do-that’.

            >> SR also said…
            >>
            >> Again, thank you for all those clear numbers. It should be
            >> very easy for Holly to stack those on a timeline in Excel
            >> and then, if she disagrees with the arithmetic at a specific
            >> point, to identify the breakpoint where opinions start to
            >> differ and give her reasons.

            Obviously the one big assumption I used above was that Eric Marsh MUST have been WAITING there at that ‘anchor point’ location to meet with Brian Frisby as he, himself, had requested.

            I still think that’s a safe assumption to make… but it’s only because nothing else would make any sense.

            It would just be absurd to think that Eric Marsh would ask another Hotshot Superintendent to ‘eat dust’ at that time and schlep all the way up there for a ‘face-to-face’… and that he KNEW that man was on his way there… and then just turn around and take off to the SOUTH on a scouting hike before that man even arrives.

            If that really happened… and Frisby actually HAD made it all the way up there… I can’t imagine the level of WTF that would have taken place when Steed had to tell Frisby… “Oh… yea…. Eric wanted you to come up here but then he decided to take off south instead and didn’t bother to tell you there was no need to come up here. Sorry.”

            I’ve actually always been reluctant to assume Marsh really did just ‘take off’ the moment he heard Frisby himself saying “I’m not coming up. I’m saving your lookout’s life at the moment”.

            That’s because if Marsh really did just ‘take off’ at 3:41 PM when Frisby cancelled the meeting… it really does mean that Marsh was already hiking SOUTH with every intention of taking those men off that ridge when Robert Caldwell accidentally captured OPS1 Todd Abel talking to Marsh at 3:50 PM.

            That’s the conversation where OPS1 Todd Abel would TELL Marsh to “Hunker and be Safe”… but Marsh was already 9 minutes into his trip to the SOUTH and Marsh (apparently) was then hiding his real plans and intentions from his own Operations Level Supervisor.

            Yes… Marsh told Abel “I’m workin’ my way off the top” in that same 3:50 PM conversation… and we now know that he really WAS… but it was NOT CLEAR to Abel what that meant. Abel thought that only meant Marsh was ‘workin’ his way off the top’ from where he’d been observing the fire all day, but was STILL THERE near the anchor point and the safe black.

            The 3:50 PM conversation is the one OPS1 Todd Abel testified as being the basis for him believing Marsh and Steed and GM were ‘in the safe black’ and they were going to STAY there.

            Abel never knew that this DIVSA he was talking to at that 3:50 moment was already hiking OFF the Ridge and had every intention of pulling all of his resources OUT of that Division.

            Abel never knew it… because Marsh was CHOOSING to NOT tell his own Operations Level Supervisor what his real plans were, at that point, and, indeed, what he was ALREADY doing at 3:50 PM.

            The question Abel never asked at 3:50 PM was…

            “You’re not thinking of doing anything stupid like trying to beat that fire into town, are you?”

            >> SR also said…
            >>
            >> My gripe is that you “assumed” the same rate of travel,
            >> which I know you did to be conservative and make a point.

            Yes. It just so happens that if you assume the same Neill ‘pack-test’ ROT for Marsh himself… that puts him standing at the ‘Descent Point’ at the exact same moment all the photo-taking abruptly ENDED back there at the ‘rest location’…

            …but it’s very likely Marsh was doing a little better than 3.5 mph as he headed south on that ‘first leg’ of that risky journey.

            Even in the 3:50 PM Caldwell video… were Marsh chose to NOT tell his Operations Level Supervisor what his real plans were… we can hear Eric slightly ‘out of breath’. Eric was in great shape… so if we hear him ‘huffing’ at 3:50 PM, 9 minutes into his hike south, that means he probably really was hitting the 3.5 mph ( or better ) mark at that same moment OPS1 Abel was telling him to “Hunker and be safe” ( but Marsh already had no intentions of doing any such thing ).

            >> SR also said…
            >>
            >> But, obviously, we know that in fact the rate of travel for
            >> EM and crew necessarily had to slow.

            Yes… and that ‘rate’ is actually SOMEWHERE in that chart above.

            I was only showing the ‘Superman’ rates as well to prove the point that there was no way in hell Marsh could have reached the BSR before he actually gave the ORDER to Steed to take those men out of the black.

            >> SR also said…
            >>
            >> I can’t play with Google Earth or other maps right now, but
            >> what I suspect is that if you crunch where EM MOST LIKELY
            >> was based on a REALISTIC rate of travel, that you can
            >> throw L out along with E because the geometry
            >> means L was impossible.

            I agree.

            I think at the most critical moments that afternoon… Eric Marsh was just as bogged down in that manzanita as Steed and the Crew would soon be… and he was unable to see anything ‘in the distance’..

            Alarm bells should have been going off all over in his head and he should have been doing nothing but looking for those ‘mounds’ that Calvin has always pointed out as being there…

            …but he didn’t.

            If he even thought he was acting as some kind of ‘forward lookout’ for all those men… then he was failing that task in what would become a most horrific manner.

            Maybe that’s just part of this astounding tragedy.

            Maybe it was a two-way total mis-communication.

            Maybe Steed just THOUGHT that Marsh was far enough ahead to be able to warn them of any danger ( but he really wasn’t )…

            And Maybe Marsh just THOUGHT Steed was close enough behind him and making good enough progress to not be getting into trouble ( when they really were ).

            Not making excuses. Just pointing out possibilities.

            It’s now a known fact that the only radio problems in Yarnell that day were that people where not properly COMMUNICATING with them.

            Reply

      • Question
        where would Marsh have Been by the time the crew dropped off the Saddle into the Canyon?

        What I am getting at is could either Marsh or the Last man on the Crew have had eyes on the fire once the crew dropped into the Canyon. and when could Marsh have been in a position to see the fire if he could?

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 15, 2015 at 2:50 pm

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> Question
          >> where would Marsh have Been by the time the crew dropped
          >> off the Saddle into the Canyon?

          That’s still the 19 million dollar question.

          What the post above shows is simply that there is really no way in hell Marsh could have even made it to anywhere near the near vicinity of the Boulder Springs Ranch BEFORE actually ORDERING Steed to take the crew out of the safe black and begin that risky journey.

          It also means that when the ORDER was given ( by Marsh )… he could not possibly have finished ‘scouting’ or ‘marking’ or ‘timing’ or ‘improving’ anything.

          Once that ORDER was given… and all picture taking abruptly ended back there at that ‘rest location’ and the men ‘gaggled up’ and left… Marsh certainly didn’t sit down for a coffee break.

          He MUST have continued doing whatever it was he was doing BEFORE he gave the ORDER.

          So how FAR he got while Steed and the men WERE proceeding down to the ‘Descent Point’ is still anybody’s guess.

          Brendan’s little ‘tease’ of recently released new information doesn’t help with that.

          His ‘tease’ really only proves that there MUST have been a lot of other things he heard which he is STILL not willing to admit to or talk about.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> What I am getting at is could either Marsh or the Last man on
          >> the Crew have had eyes on the fire once the crew dropped into
          >> the Canyon. and when could Marsh have been in a position to
          >> see the fire if he could?

          Two good questions that still deserve answers.

          A long time ago I did a Google Earth ground-level ‘walk-thru’ of the actual hike down from the Descent Point. The reality that day is that while they would have had the best possible view of what the fireline was doing the whole time they were hiking south… there still came a point a few hundred yards before reaching what is now known as the ‘Descent Point’ where every man on that crew would have ‘lost sight of the fire’… and that would have then remained true the whole time they were descending.

          As for Marsh being able to ‘see’ the fire… it still depends on how far ahead he had gotten.

          I have always said that if there was ever any proof that Marsh really was out ‘ahead’ of those men… that there would then be even more ‘disturbing’ questions to answer.

          Well… we have arrived… and I don’t see Holly Neill talking about these additional ‘disturbing’ questions.

          She jumped onto that Gabbert thread practically saying “Hooray! I was RIGHT! Marsh was out ahead of them!”…

          …but then never did her own ‘slowly I turned’ moment herself and let the ‘new’ (disturbing) questions sink in.

          I think I am still with Calvin on this… who was talking about all of these scenarios a LOOOONG time ago.

          Unless Marsh might have gotten up onto some of those ‘mounds’ that were there just short of the Boulder Springs Ranch… then he would have been just as blind to anything in the distance and Steed and the Crew were.

          I still don’t think he ( Marsh ) did.

          I think he was still so ‘bogged down’ himself and trying to ‘finish’ his self-appointed task of trying pink things on bushes that he, himself, was buried in head-high manzanita and unable to see in the distance… much less fulfill any kind of valid ‘Lookout’ role.

          I also think it’s still possible there was then GM intra-crew radio traffic ( which Brendan would have also heard ) regarding the loss of progress and the trouble the men were having either finding the ribbons or making any kind of good forward progress on the descent.

          That’ might have been when Marsh realized it was less important for him to finish tying ribbons all the way to the BSR fenceline than it was for him to go BACK ( following his own ribbons ) and try to help Steed and the men even FIND the ones he had already tied.

          I think he was ‘on his way back’ when it all hit the fan… but he was still only less than a 2 minute run away which is why he didn’t appear on the A2G channel saying “I’m WITH Granite Mountain (now)” until 2+ minutes after Steed’s first MAYDAY.

          There’s still a lot we don’t know.

          I believe there’s still a lot that Brendan ( and the other 3 BR Hotshots who were also hearing GM radio traffic ) COULD/SHOULD admit to hearing which would answer a lot of these remaining questions.

          Reply

  127. FYI – a very good source tells me that NEIL had twelve years on the fire line, which was two more than me, so maybe we ease up on her even if we don’t agree with everything she says’. And besides, I would never have even said she COULD be an idiot ONLY if she met certain specified criteria except that I didn’t think she even read our little Morton Downey Jr. Free for All. So….

    Reply

    • Holly Neill on the qualifications ranking 12 Years in Fire on the Park Service and FS.
      Not what I would call the likes of people who worked to reach IC or team status.
      at 12 years I was an ASST HS Supt. Sector boss/ Div. Boss Trainee not exactly the ranks of FMO’s or (Fire Gods) IT is the Fires that train you the Numbers and size and Intensity levels.
      The Training both in the Class room and in the wild land environment.
      when you hit around 25 years you have a solid Resume. Now in some cases the Learning process has to do with the types of Fires you start to grow from. Different Large fire fuel types, The positions you achieve in the Fire organization and the places you work.
      Gary went thru the School of hard Knocks Hot Shots his entire first ten years.
      I as well Climbed Scratched and clawed my way up thru the Ranks Central and Southern California. Patrol, Engine Foreman and Hot Shots, Asst. Dist. FMO 16 years to make it to a GS9 and a Type II IC, Ops, Division Supervisor by 25 years in fire. I was known and respected in Region 5 and 4.
      So I am still asking who is Holly Neill??????????????????? Not because she is a woman but because I do not see the diploma from the School of hard Knocks. May of my retired friends
      From NIFC have never herd of her. those that set on the evaluation boards 10 years ago that were G S 14 and 15 in charge of NIFC who select the Type 1 and 2 teams.
      She hasn’t impressed me yet maybe she will at some point.
      She has not spent time on IM discussing ours and hers findings. she jumps on here and attacks what we have found adds nothing and disappears back to her research,
      So yes I have a problem with her and I do not see that changing.

      Reply

      • Added to all that I have also learned that Holly has broken the investigation rule of not becoming close with the Families and friends of Granit Mountain..
        She is also very close to a FF friend of Eric Marsh. That kind of thing can skew your Investigation to allow feeling to out way hard facts.
        My assessment but it fits.

        Reply

        • “That kind of thing can skew your investigation . . .”

          Indeed, Mr. Powers. And thank you for providing such a pertinent piece of information about Ms. Neill’s breaking of a certain rule. Skewed investigations are irrelevant investigations as far as I’m concerned. I knew I had a problem with the way Ms Neill’s claims did not pass the smell test . . . NOW I know why. It more than helps to explain why that business with the alleged LCES (emphasis on the word “alleged”) was starting to smell like a cover-up in progress to me.

          I’ve had enough of cover ups when it comes to the YHF.

          Reply

          • I agree with you. I just think we should consider everyone’s ideas, not believe them. In fact, I did ask NEIL this question below that I never got an answer to, so I am going to repost it again in the hope that I do.

            “I do have one really big question for you [NEIL] however, if you will indulge me. What grade would you give Eric Marsh as both a division supervisor and a hotshot crew boss since in my opinion he never really turned the crew over to Steed to run on the Yarnell Hill Fire? If you think he did, I would still like to know what grade you would give him for what you think he did do on that fire?

            I can empathize with Marsh, but I do have to give him an F. His crew is dead.

            Your posts have left me with the opinion that you are desperately trying to find a way to vindicate Marsh. Are you?”

            Reply

            • Your posts have left me with the opinion that you are desperately trying to find a way to vindicate Marsh. Are you?”

              my reply: It appeared on 6-30-13 that Marsh’s actions deserved a deeper investigation…that was all I felt on topic…not like Moses said and let the higher ups let blame fall down…I just wanted that looked into and the equipment/cells/radios that were on the men that day to be looked into…

              Reply

          • My concern with Holly is the attempt to prove Marsh Had LCES Covered. Rater than the Facts that are right their.
            For get the Escape Route being a cut trail.
            and you still have LCS that dose not meet Muster no matter how you cut it.
            While I now believe Marsh flagged a route at lest to the Flats out of the Canyon.

            There are no videos from the Hains Ranch that show any FF near the fence or on the Ranch property that afternoon.

            I also contend that the Brush was to high for any one in the Flats to see the fire except maybe way up on the North ridge line.

            All Radio traffic and info from McDonough seems to indicate the Crew –Steed was Told to Bring the Crew down. The crew is coming from the heel of the fire.

            It would also make no since to have a saw crew cut trail to the Ranch then turn around and go back with Marsh to the Crew. I do not believe they would have the time to do all that and be back with the crew at deployment. 99.99% of the time a Saw crew after cutting a 1.5 Mile trail would have waited for the rest of the crew to get to their location.

            On the other hand Marsh had time to head back to meet the crew once they started down to the Ranch.
            If That happened he made him self blind to the on coming fire front THUS NOT A LOOK OUT.

            Reply

            • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 15, 2015 at 1:24 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> My concern with Holly is the attempt to prove Marsh
              >> Had LCES Covered. Rater than the Facts that are right
              >> their. For get the Escape Route being a cut trail.and
              >> you still have LCS that dose not meet Muster no matter
              >> how you cut it.

              See a new post up above which basically proves ( using Holly Neill’s own pack-test results ) that there was never enough TIME for all the things she would like to think happened to have happened.

              Bill Gabbert wasn’t a good enough interviewer to even get a TIME or even a ‘WHERE he was’ from Brendan when he heard this ORDER come from Marsh to Steed.

              ( And make no mistake… Brendan can cherry-pick his words all he wants… he is admitting to hearing the ORDER from Marsh to Steed for him to ‘Make his way down here’. It wasn’t a ‘suggestion’ ).

              Based on other evidence… there is actually only a small 8-9 minute window in which this ORDER could have been given.

              Based on Neill’s own ‘pack-test’… that means it was impossible for Marsh to have fully ‘scouted’ anything before actually giving that ORDER.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> While I now believe Marsh flagged a route at least
              >> to the Flats out of the Canyon.

              Based on the same timing reported in that new message above… it’s very likely Marsh was STILL trying to do that WHILE the men were descending behind him and right up until the MAYDAY calls.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> I also contend that the Brush was to high for any one
              >> in the Flats to see the fire except maybe way up on
              >> the North ridge line.

              And that might be why EVERYONE died.

              Marsh might have been ‘ahead’ of them… but not very far.
              He might have been bogged down himself still trying to tie pink ribbons on things ( and unable to see much of anything himself ) until it was all too late.

              There was no Lookout.

              Just a bunch of men down in a blind box canyon… slogging through a maze and unable to see anything in the distance… only the SMOKE above them.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> It would also make no since to have a saw crew cut
              >> trail to the Ranch then turn around and go back with
              >> Marsh to the Crew. I do not believe they would have
              >> the time to do all that and be back with the crew at
              >> deployment. 99.99% of the time a Saw crew after
              >> cutting a 1.5 Mile trail would have waited for the rest
              >> of the crew to get to their location.

              This might be a minor point… but with all this talk about finding ‘cut stobs’ alongside the road that was bulldozed from the Ranch out to the deployment site… it has to be noted that Lee and DJ Helm were asked by ADOSH investigators not only if they SAW anything or any FFs near the Ranch… they were also asked if they HEARD anything.

              They did NOT. They didn’t SEE any FFs anywhere near the ranch and they didn’t report HEARING anything, either ( like chainsaws running anywhere near their property ).

              And they were, in fact, OUTSIDE tending to their animals in the timeframe in question.

              If there had been chainsaws running out there in that canyon to the west of their fenceline… they would have heard them.

              When any of my own neighbors even up to a mile away are running their chainsaws… you can HEAR it. No problem.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> On the other hand Marsh had time to head back to meet
              >> the crew once they started down to the Ranch.
              >> If That happened he made him self blind to the on
              >> coming fire front THUS NOT A LOOK OUT.

              What very likely happened is that Steed and the Crew simply started to get LOST.

              They might have started ‘missing’ whatever ribbons Marsh had left for them and then got into the scenarios that Joy and Sonny have described whereby you can get ‘caught in a trap’ out there and even have to ‘backtrack’ and ‘go another way’.

              Marsh might have thought the only chance in hell they now had to make it was if he got all the way back to them and SHOWED them where these stupid pink ribbons were.

              Reply

        • Agreed, can skew, but doesn’t have to skew.

          But: one thing about the internet is, it’s harder for authors and people in similar roles (I’m not sure how to classify Holly exactly?) to not engage constructive, fact-based questions that relate to the subject matter.

          Bob Powers, Gary Olson, me, WTKTT, and several others have all spoken as to how long it took GM to get from A to B to C.

          We know Holly check in here. I don’t think I was rude in asking her to give her own numbers. Having inserted herself into the thread a few days ago, she should be willing to take 15 minutes to give her take on facts that are central to whether the escape route could have been improved in the time available, and/or WAS improved, given the crew’s rate of travel. It could be valuable to her to get feedback on those kinds of numbers, rather than put flawed info out in the future.

          If she’s NOT willing to show her basic math on such a central matter, certainly it does raise a legit question as to whether she’s being objective. There’s a bigger story here that maybe even she could write about if she say the angle, . This could be an extension of existing research on ability to travel uphill. But, first, you have to be open to actually looking at the numbers, including the painfully slow rate of travel for GM once they dropped into the bowl, which was entirely predictable.

          If by contrast Holly thinks it’s possible to zip along through dense chaparral, 1) she should get a crew and prove it in similar vegetation, and 2) that’s not what the times from the actual GM crew progress show in their case.

          Reply

      • We did hike with Holly Neil and her husband Wayne. Maybe you should look at Wayne as well. While Joy remained with Holly I for the most part was with Wayne and Dr. Ted Putnam that day we hiked the route. You could see that Wayne was right on with what he had to say and you could tell he had been an excellent Wild Fire fighter. Talk about someone that could teach young fire fighters how to do things and stay alive he would be the one. He immediately knew the mistakes made and pointed them out–you felt at ease with him and his knowledge of wild fires. I think he had also fought fires in New Zealand having been born there. So whatever expertise Holly does not have she makes up for it with Wayne. I know he was a logger as well and must have laughed at how some of the larger trees that were cut did not have wedges—and I believe he taught some American crews how to fall trees. He was well built for a logger-wild land fire fighter and one of those fellows knowledgeable that ought to be promoted to run a fire fighting system as well as educate those newbie fighters so they would not be misled as happened in the Yarnell fire. You knew you were with two heavy weights in fire fighting with Wayne Neil and Ted Putnam.

        Sometimes I tell Joy that she tries to me me understand what she does not understand. That makes sense with some people and I am glad to have her along eventhough my lessons were learned by the world of hard knocks and experience.

        But whoa–no lookout, no reason to drop down in a canyon with the wild fire gone ballistic and weather reports saying that winds of 45 plus mph headed your way? It had Ted and Wayne scratching their heads and I think they still will until all is revealed. Everyone considers those men to be heroes but they were on a roll that cast them into a suicide mission. Maybe much is to be said that the city fireman doing structures ought to be completely divorced from wild land fighting and vice versa.

        Reply

        • Amen brother, as always, you make a lot of sense at the most basic down to earth level. They (wildland firefighters) need to turn back the clock and get completely out of the ICS business which brings a quid pro quo structural firefighting side with it.

          Now of course it is different if the wildfire starts in an wildland urban interface zone, there may be reasons why wildland firefighting agencies would take action if there resource is directly or could be directly affected by what is happening in a WUI zone, but it a very slippery slope and I think the Twisp Fire proves wildland firefighters are now in a free fall and no longer even on a slope.

          Of course ICS is now so dominant in all aspects of wildland firefighting there is a zero chance of getting out of it so the best we can hope for is to at least get them to admit there is a problem so they can at least begin to address that problem through new and improved training regarding exactly what they should and should not be doing out there in regards to defending structures.

          What a mess ICS has made of the wildland firefighting world.

          Reply

      • Bob-

        When it comes to this topic on Holly— let it go.

        It’s not needed to say the harsh stuff.

        I mean I would like to know what it is that got your view there…not to continue on I M but let the world and me know…and then done.

        for me, I think a few females feel I should only correspond off here with them and not mention them on here but I just feel anything I told these women I have and can say on here…like the oddities of my knowing Sonny….and how it makes me feel or him feel at times…come on people I am a married lady who is hanging out with a man who thinks so unlike me but it usually annoys both of us if I am sick and or tired and for him when he is enjoying barley/malt and or ill…it is not a normal setup to have a husband drop his wife off on his way to work and pick her up after and at times not even that…at times 24/7…because of hiking areas or just because; no special reason…You go to my home…my home or vacation home internal and external are well managed EVEN perfect defensible space and I take care of my own life so if I want to venture out…we joke and say old married couple- he is old and I am married but reality is we are like two childhood chums or one another’s caregivers because we both have failing health…

        Really Bob…show this lady some online respect and omit the pimple stuff…it’s okay to not click or like a person but when I read your comments I almost feel its personal assessment…

        Understand you have your thoughts as I do too-
        and I am all for sharing thoughts yet learn from my hearing; keep out the comments that can cause you legal crap…

        Number one…that original hike with Holly Neill and her husband Wayne and Dr. Ted Putnam which was shared to me by John MacLean some friends and colleagues of his would like to go but they cannot make same visit so when we hiked them it was by the far the MOST appreciated for us the hikers and both of us feel the warmth and heart of Holly’s efforts spreads all over from loved ones of the GMHS (http://bebetterbrigade.blogspot.com/2015/04/holly-and-wayne-farmington-nm.html) to locals here to people who fought on the fire.

        Now, as I have said on this site before I feel Holly is an amazing lady no buts ands or ifs about it….and she had the investigative eye to see that shrimp on the Weavers yet for me I learned from a one time visit from her husband Wayne SO MUCH fire terminology that he IS the proper man to train these future firefighters because he spoke in a way I understood. He had the foreign NZ accent and I was amazed between what Wayne said and what Dr. Ted Putnam said and that includes Holly…yet Holly and I broke away and walked a different path and talked girl things…mine was the unusual complications both Sonny faces and myself in knowing another…how do you make something work when two minds think so different and yet over four years later and I am ALIVE…we manage…and that is all I want from the Incident Command folks is not to mismanage or mislead or miscommunicate but MANAGE the unmanageable…plus for pete’s sake bring Smokey the Bear to our town for the youth…I think they deserve that much…a special event for the youth that faced a loss of their stuff in the YHF…now as far as Holly and all this goings on about her…

        Bob, Sonny alerted her 3-19-15 12:10pm on his faux wedding but he never heard a thing…he never had any fallings out with her and yet she never has corresponded to him…the last I heard from her was after the moment I learned she was sleeping at Helms and her friends said they were there a good bit when she spoke to me two weeks prior and said she would be busy in Prescott and will make it a few hours to Yarnell Memorial but was tied too much to Prescott events…that is when the Yarnell hike happened to show burn with Jim Roth and Staci and Eric Marsh’s best friend and Michael Kodas…so my last communication was 7-2-15 where she wished me a Happy July 1 Birthday..and she was glad I was born. I have never heard anything more from her. However knew of her doings by others sending me links and such over time…I have been asked in private from 2015 firefighters that came into contact to me my opinion of her—I said it before here and resaid it now—that’s how I feel. I think she has done OUTSTANDING things for the families especially the Ashcraft family…above and beyond expected…so for that you can’t help but love a woman so sweet and a lot of these local would not got their letter from me if it was not for Holly’s money contribution to get stamps.

        WAYNE NEILL is the GUY who surely has his shit down when it comes to fire fighting and Gary he would not marry just anyone…they DO have a sweet unique love story that INVOLVES Darrel Willis—

        Now, I use to write on google+ page “culture” comments and in this WHOLE fire and its aftermath the ONE who continues to privately BE THERE for ALL and I mean ALL is the lady who is a big time straight shooter—that is Fernanda Santos…NY times…she has never been shady or sneaky and always been straight up and BOLD in the right way…she has even set me straight and no one likes to be set straight but she did and for that I like a person that can stand up to me and say it straight…she is a lady who always provided sources…and that was what I did not like about how Holly handled that Memorial 2014 or even Winter 2013 when she said “you let me know what you get and I will do the same”…well, than I am talking to her December 2013 and never once a discussion on the article to be—I learned by link as she was giving it out…and she did not share to me the same as I did to her—she kept sources close to her—so to us it began to feel she wanted our information but I am not only one she did this to—one of her own colleagues too—

        Let’s stop focus on this topic because there is three topics I hate to see; this was one. I guess I can just SKIP OVER your comments Bob because in REALITY I want to NEVER restrict you from expressing so go ahead and be YOU…

        I reckon that is the lesson in this all—PEOPLE if you do not like the contents of a message- skip over it— do not make a case out of it— or do not keep PEAKING at I M.

        By the way good to see Ryder likes rocks and Wayne and Holly offered them a great rock hound time…that made me smile…

        Reply

        • by the way that blog link I was emailed of Ashcraft journey above…

          it has to make everyone here on I M proud of her as a person…a young lady…a mother…
          pretty creative and cool.

          I only met her in person once and I was busy trying to comprehend the play and well I have no idea what to say because at that meeting I was already aware/fed the negative by another that she did not much care for the hikers … but sorry I do not have the words but hope one day the RIGHT people DO to help ya on this YHF…

          Reply

    • I didn’t say she had qualifications to match yours Bob. I don’t have qualifications to match yours, very few people do. BUT…I have seen photos (as you have by now as well) of her as a wildland firefighter AND out at the deployment site and she looks like she could kick my ass, so…

      We have a big tent here and everyone’s opinion matters, sometimes especially those who do not have any experience because they pick up on things that we don’t even think of and ask questions that would never occur to us. Plus…as I have said, she has done a ton of work on this subject even if I don’t agree with everything she has said.

      And the bottom line is this Bob. I really like the way she got in my face out of the blue and called me on being an asshole…that counts for a lot doesn’t it Bob? That proves she has been on the line and has run with the big dogs at some point. And she has gone toe to toe with you…right? And let’s face it Bob, some of your options on women on the fire line are a little….dated? You are a generation older than me.

      I love Sonny too, but his opinions on women lacking the upper body strength to do the work and fat guys who can hold down the fire hoses better than little guys are…priceless. That’s the thing about hotshot crews (as you very well know) you need all kinds to make the crew strong, some knuckle draggers and some who can think things through. The sum of all fire crews are always greater than the sum of their individual parts…that’s why it works.

      Why I remember a guy I has on our crew for several years we called The Professor, which he became later in life. Most average women (and not all women are average) were stronger than him but the man could think. During his first training session, I was demonstrating how to use a Swedish brush hook and I said something about the back of the hook doesn’t do anything. He raised his hand and pointed out the back of the hook holds the front on, so it DOES do something. He is also the guy who pointed out to me that a “near miss” (which the USFS uses to death, near miss this and near miss that) is actually a HIT. So lighten up Bob, we need all kinds.

      AND I just want to make one more point (again) about the way the USFS is investigating these disasters. Just imagine if the National Transportation Safety Board investigated disasters involving common carriers (planes, trains, ships) that same way, how long would Congress and the rest of us put up with that? Not very long, of that we can be sure (Men In Black).

      Reply

      • First I am Not attacking women. I had a number that I trained and Promoted, some stuck it out and advanced above me.
        My point is only her Credentials and Back ground and the fact that the only time she comes on here is to attack and go Hide.
        Your 10 years on a HS crew is a hell of a lot more than 12 years as a FF on what ever fires Holly Made.
        Big Difference and qualifying your self as a Professional Wild Land fire Investigation Person.
        She will have to prove a lot more to me than she has so far.
        Ill lighten up when she starts answering some questions and drops the attitude.

        Reply

      • Oh…and one more thing. Our Big Tent is what makes us special and better than the Other site. “Oh yes Bill, you are so smart Bill and so clever Bill and such a great wildland firefighter Bill, we worship you Bill”…and oh shit oh dear, talk about a Park Service experience…have you read his bio (I know you know his bio well) we don’t want to be like HIM do we?

        Reply

      • I don’t know about fighting fires alongside a woman. I damn sure wouldn’t mine next to one nor log either. It is not being sexist but certain jobs seem to demand too much for the estrogen types. But fire fighting I can’t say. Only you fellows that have worked by them can give some opinion. Now mind you, there are likely some exceptions. I once heard there was a man who had his wife working along side him as a contract miner. I never actually saw that but assume that it wasn’t a lie. Had that happened in Fierro, New Mexico where I was a raise miner, the whole bunch of Mexican miners would have walked off the job. They had a superstition that a woman underground was bad luck and would get someone killed. Well it happened one got his head in a hydraulic ore shute door and he likely did not look too good in the coffin with a pan cake head. Maybe there was a woman there that day.

        Reply

        • I have worked with some really great women on Fires one made squad boss on the Sawtooth Hotshots they can work with men if they train hard they can out work some men.
          I have Hired trained and promoted them ever tried to work side by side with a women that grew up on a farm or in a mountain logging family. Very tough they can hold their own.

          Reply

          • Well…I should have said your views on diversity hires that can be tracked back to the consent decree. I don’t have the right to offer an opinion on that because I am lucky I left the USFS before that really impacted us in New Mexico.

            It is very hard to make up for decades of gender discrimination within a few short targeted years and I know a lot of guys really got hurt. Gender discrimination is like all discrimination…it is bad but it can cut two ways.

            And for all I know, it is still a really big problem and still hurts people both ways in the USFS. I don’t know? Not very many women want to go in law enforcement, but those that do, have some real opportunities in that field because there are so few women in it.

            Reply

  128. OK…just a couple of points on the suits (even thought they don’t usually wear suits) in the various agencies deciding to keep the truth from the public and those who have been injured either medically or financially by their (or those who work for them) decisions made on wildfire suppression by coordinating a plan to investigate what went wrong without really investigating what went wrong and essentially having two investigative reports, one for use internally that few get to see or even know about and another one that contains few details that is released to the masses.

    See “Bob Powers says
    September 12, 2015 at 8:55 am”

    1. Wildand fire managers are now starting to deal with something law enforcement managers have been dealing with for decades. But instead of facing it head on with integrity they are apparently colluding with secret (and not so secret) understandings of how to conceal the truth and keep their actions from being scrutinized by the public. If these agencies were Enron, WorldCom or Tyco the words that would be used to describe their actions would involve violations of conspiracy laws and maybe even the RICO Act, short for Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act. Their actions would be like Enron, WorldCom or Tyco running two sets of books. What would the DOJ say about that? Oh…wait a minute, we already know what the DOJ did say about that.

    2. Now…I know these are good men who are trying to the right thing (more or less) they are just going about it in the wrong way. Rather than running around like Chicken Little scaring their subordinates by crying “the sky is falling, the sky is falling” they should just put on their big person pants and go to work. And for a worst case scenario, buy liability insurance. The policy is for up to one million dollars in personal liability and only costs a few hundred dollars a year…AND its tax deductible. Try to do the right thing and you will never even need it because you work the “The Crown” and as such, you have sovereign immunity except in the most extreme cases where you really don’t deserve it because you were really, really, really, criminally stupid and then you compounded it by being even more really, really, really criminally stupid. Then you might need your insurance and even get home detention for a few hours.

    3. That way…you don’t have to rely on “trickledown training” (the same way the Republicans, see Ronald Reagan history, rely on trickledown economics and it ends up like having someone piss on your back and telling you that it’s raining) “training through osmosis” or “training by reading in-between the lines” to help keep your wildland firefighters from being seriously injured or BURNED ALIVE on the job. You can just spell out what was done and what went wrong in plain words in training sessions. Pretty simple, and effective…right? That way you can tell what you are going to teach them, then teach them, then tell them what you taught them and then test them on what you taught them and then review what you taught them. That’s the FLETC Way. It worked for me, a score of “71 got me a badge and a gun” (less than 70% at FLETC gets you recycled once and then sent home in disgrace).

    4. I would now like to write an open letter to the United States Forest Service.

    Dear USFS Suits: September 14, 2015

    Why don’t you just keep FUCKING around? That is what you do isn’t it? You fuck around, you fuck around and then you fuck around some more while playing stinky finger with you cooperating wildland firefighting agencies. Finally…the United States Congress gets tired of your shenanigans, and they step in and bitch slap (non-gender specific) the shit out of you and pass new laws to force you to do the right thing.

    Here’s a novel idea and an innovative concept. Why don’t you just do the right thing before a body that enjoys the approval rating of just their immediate family and best friends (special interest groups, lobbyists and campaign bribers) has to step in and bitch slap (non-gender specific) the shit out of you like they have done so many times before. Just sayin’…

    Sincerely Yours & Best Wishes, Gary L. Olson

    Reply

  129. Good Morning.

    Beautiful day indeed.

    Changing to a very strict disciplined paleo way of life (dangerously too high in estrogen dominance which causes moods and other stuff besides the terminal crap already making its mayhem inside me)

    even omitting the simple joys and staple foods like garlic and jalepenos and such has had me in a bit of a sluggish detox mode…not mood. Reading not skimming the recent messages on IM…to see through the quotidian awfulness of things.

    I learned ALOT from Charley Moseley- a smokejumper who has sinced passed away…for some examples …on Dec 1, 2013 I learned some women in firefighting are nicknamed Bros…I reckon better than ho-

    on the same day he said he spent years DIGGING into cover ups especially Mann Gulch back in 1949 where the Forest Service first got away with HIGH deceit and the practice of “pushing the blame downhill” so it is hard for me a housewife and the desert walker COMPREHEND the dialect currently here saying HYBRID and the NEW ORDER because this goes back way before Gary or Bob were even born. So maybe I am missing something.

    Maybe like in Hollywood one has to change the outlook for the public’s ability to comprehend their displays of illusions and delusions—I call magic tricks or stunts. Speaking of stunts…I met Blackjack in waiting room while Sonny had heart surgery…Jack N Young and he was an adrenaline junkie like I was so it was neat…I mean for me who loves the oldmovies… Cary Grant…John Wayne and so many more he stunt doubled…even for my Wyatt Earp Hugh O Brian…that’s cool for me to have that led my way…

    How about December 20, 2013 corresponding with Moses when he shows appreciation of the hikers astute observations of YHF and that he felt way more than anyone else he believed the firefighters owed the hikers a big debt for not only being up there that horrific day but for continuing to be there and our willingness to give voice and photos to what we observed without withholding information in which its proven the SAIT did. That same day he alerted me in private that his own friends he known a long while and some not so long— he fair warned me of the warfare and the development of STRONG difference of opinons between him and people we even hiked with—their opinions. The harshness views amongst his own peers- and how he disagreed to their views and stands by us…Dr. Ted Putnam was put on the spot one time in knowing me yet in it he did speak open and freely and I appreciated that a lot. He did not think OH KNOW WHO WILL THIS OFFEND OR WHATEVER THE FOLKS WHO BELIEVE IN LESS IS BEST LIVING…Dr. Ted Putnam helped me avoid a public seizure that day and or that I am deeply grateful. That ambulance trip and doc visit would of cost me at wrong time…this past time the ER trip did not cost me thanks to Marti figuring it out for me how it can work out…she is the best. I miss reading her life and fire sharing…I do think we should have a campfire in person yhf discussion some time…you will see the amazing way how God keeps bringing to me NEW information…come 2016…time to share…

    I did alert Holly in private that topic not sharing to her the details I already was told by Moses yet she never spoke up and was very very sweet and kind to me and hard to see negatives on her on here. Moses stated even some we hiked with even poked fun at us when he was with them and as well as our observations especially on the helicopter we eye witnessed.

    How about the man you stated WWTKTT to Holly..John MacLean. John was top notch on our hike and thereafter yet we did learn this man who on Nov 12 2013 stated how grateful he was for our willingness to share our knowledge and thoughts about the YHF and for the long strenuous hike. He shared his appreciation for the way the hikers conducted ourselves providing guide and interpretive services freely to groups after groups…individual after individual and he hoped some kind of meaningful payback and when I asked for a reference (payback) for a moment I had to face because rumors flew I was tour guiding folks to the site and it was a misfed/misled/miscommunication and John’s reply was he felt I was no physical threat yet he felt I had become over involved in the fire and other areas took precedence over my own. That day I learned what Moses said must be facts and not perception and it hurt. The only flaw I have in the after math of YHF is I share publicly how God guided this and some prefer their topics and information remain just for my view and eyes but with my poor health I felt the best way to properly assess this all was to share as it came in…

    Reply

  130. so the world can properly work it out. Now, I have zero negatives on John MacLean or even Willis because they have their perceptions yet when Willis did hearsay to create a moment- it was not a just way. I was apologetic for my insenstivities and hey walk in my shoes with my health bullshit than you will relaize I am above and beyond the normal and so what I have a down moment or so—shit the way I look at it the world and its people have their substances and abuses and mine have always cored to food and or emotions…shocker for someone born a cancer and deals with it non-traditional too—think not a shock…I don’t drink or use an substance and never have or had yet glad because the health journey “as is” –it is tough. My brother who was recently diagnosed with brain tumor in area same as me…he use to think…my sis odd with her non traditional methods yet as he and myself have watched most our family die if not by cancer by horrific ways even including 9/11…anyways, my weird ways has awoken him a bit more not to be so savvy to give control to the modern doctors…if you learn anything from me I told him is LISTEN to your own body and if you are on substance or stress DETOX out of it so you can HEAR your body’s rythymn because that is the best way…do not just sleep it away… that is a tragedy as well. As the desert walker I learned local resident Patricia Gould is soon to publish her book on Congress…after hearing who was in it…I felt a good story but I do hold the strongest information of history of that town because of the off beat old timers God led my way like the horrific fire tragedy back in 1889. Yes back in 1889 I saw photos of it having date trees and pine trees and today NONE except in very isolated spots…that must be the topic Gary was talking about…burns away or stripping it out for lumber…I have pinoeered ALL over Arizona…not cookie cutter subdivision rv ways but just me and a wool blanket sleeping bag way under the moonlit stars near a cowboy campfire and its pioneer folks like Jack and Laura Culp and Elle Loftin and just too many to name but their stories sparked me to venture out when my health turned way rotten and this venture became my bucket list…

    Reply

  131. something I always wanted to do but did not know HOW until God led me to Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) which on my hiking page I named I would meet him a couple years before from posting a dream I had…. Sonny IS the true live off the land and wear no gear kind of man…I did not trust him at first so I stuffed water bottles in my hiking pants near my snake boots and when folks said you look like you packed on weight—I replied just water weight. Anyways, in 1889 in Congress on a very cold night (I know those nights because I recreated this event)…as you pile on wood to keep the fire going…like for example last Christmas baking a storm at home in Congress I went out back and I stared at the Weavers and thought I just had to run up and pay my respect to the men and shit that was a bitter cold windy air…chill factor was to the point we needed a fire just to survive that moment so I called YHF and some locals to ask them their views and no problem so I lit a fire. You see, I always think of others while Sonny was like just start the damn thing…why worry what others think but on a Holiday I wanted to make sure locals knew it was not another wildfire was all…just me singing Christmas carols for the 19 even Donut. Okay back to 1889 and now you see as the rambler why I don’t share much because I type as I think it…afraid I will lose that thought I reckon with my health the way it is because I was not like that twenty years ago. These two prospectors in 1889 were piling wood to keep warm and even trying to envelope their body so near to the fire to just keep alive for the night was bitter cold and the wind was harsher. They reassembled their blankets to keep warm yet that darn mother nature was blowing in the opposite direction so they felt safe to snuggle and survive the night out “as is” …more wood piled on…finally nodding off after they undressed their boots and hats—a mode of undressing peculiar for hardy miners back then even now knowing Sonny. The only music that night was of the pines as the wind shooshed through it. As I witnessed last Christmas…the wind changing…it made for a hotter fire; thank God—I was frozen…With the wind change it grew not only hotter but larger…The miner nearest to fire rested not easy as I did last Christmas yet I wanted to be there for the men…no matter the weather condition it was important to me to spend it with them…I had seen Sonny and family and friends but 6-30-13 changed my life due to these men and I wanted to let them know THANK YOU…tears roll down my face….

    Reply

  132. One of the miners (must of been Irish) took his clothes off to get warmer because the wind and light mist of dew had canopied his blanket and red flannel underwear and soiled his overalls…that horror we all know too will due to YHF—Ered Matthew’s song—CHANGE IN THE WIND—that change in 1889 gently fanned the treacherous flames toward the SLEEPING sleepers—the flame with that snake-like tongue reached out closer to the uncovered naked man who is sleeping and unaware of this danger at hand. The blaze has reached his well greased mining overalls which ignited a serpent-like blaze in itself yet still the sleeper slept. As the other miner lays there the blaze slightly caresses his flannel underwear which burned like powder…a blood curdling sound that awakes a thousand echoes and frightens the wild denizens of the forest and its animals (you see Congress now…what forest…right…well…you don’t get the TRUE education from Smokey the Bear but from BOLD ASS folks like Gary and people on IM and get labels CONSPIRACY THEORISTS…Well, was it the yell in 1889 of the enraged mountain lion or the distant bray of the Phoenix Gazette man (yeah media gets involved…it’s a fire for pete sake )? Gentle readers I tell you it was neither…The sleeping sleeper is awake now! I HOPE INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA AWAKENS MANY TO THE REAL WAY OF THINGS versus the glazed up shit they want you to buy into like you see in article after article and book after book…like schools and churches and hospitals…the glaze and blaze has hit everywhere…so be your OWN individual and educate yourself. The yell of the one miner awoke the other miner. That was one lively mining camp that night—in fact too lively and I know the ways of an old miner TODAY because of Sonny. So here you have two miners—one dancing naked like the Irish do…some kind of war dance to set himself off fire…well, fact is a Prescott physician had to cloak the men when he arrived so it is sad how many tragic events have happened on the Weavers and Date Creeks…

    Reply

  133. yet as the desert walker I learned about these from some who were kin or some who knew someone still alive that directed me to them to confirm…the best ones were the robberies or the concerns between the mormons and jehova witness and locals/Indians which as the desert walker I can confirm there was alot of history artifacts before all these bullshit fires got out of hand even an old army coat where a button was missing and I found button six miles away from coat and an old Indian hatchet. I also found old wood stoves from the 1800s that should still be there fire or not…and as well old pottery and arrowheads and the best find was not the 1910 gun but walking and coming up to the old cover wagon suitcase was a prime find and it should still be out there because neither fire hit that spot. I do not mind lightning strikes and a fire becomes yet I do mind the inability to control or put it out when my pictures PROVE how it could of been on Friday, Saturday, Sunday yet like I tell people do not rely on the lawyers because none of us are rich enough to buy justice and that comes from one of Arizona’s top lawyer’s own view— Gary and many are right…Move on, nothing here… because that’s the NEW way but I won’t allow it when too many are dying…one is enough…nineteen is enough…Storm King’s Jim Roth’s loss is enough…come on…really…The way they need to handle this is not keep saying its okay…the job is labelled dangerous…just like when you sign up for the military…you know I don’t buy it yet I do believe Bob Powers stance on LCES 10 &18 is very important and never knew HOW IMPORTANT until I read here and did my own research…well, let’s hope for some satisfying sleep not like the ol miners had but let’s hope for change for all fallen…let’s create the best of both worlds…

    Reply

  134. You all have your questions for Holly and I remain if I want to know from her I will reach out private but this question to general public which Holly falls into and do not want her to think its aiming indirectly at her…July 12 2013 8pm that area people are writing about on cuts and such that falls in the restricted land closed to ANY and ALL ….except the site area the men died, that can be visited to the fallen families NOT FRIENDS of family or even the firefighter community as its being loosely done because I asked about that because a loved one wanted me to go and I wanted to cover all areas—just family—like ICU in the hospitals. Public officials of safety charged with investigating the fire can go all over the restricted area. Go read the official law Yarnell_Land_Closing_Orders-1.pdf…Go call Max Masel the director 602-542-3000 and he will hopefully tell you all above and maybe while he is at it the same woman ME who told everyone they had to have state land pass to hike with me…the same woman ME who gave them increased sales in permits Max tells ME I am the only one he had to serve such…When I mentioned all the ones Chief Ben Palm allowed through that did not fit the LAW…he said the Chief who went into his position after the fire not applied for a posted position but just seem to slip right in and get a hummer and than later brand new tires for his shiny hummer…yes, he can do what he wants and YCSO Sgt Ashby stated and confirmed YES it is a grey area yet the girl ME who has hiked the area long before the fire was served papers directly with a new detailed map and not Sonny JUST me…not John MacLean…not Holly…not all the people I hiked…just me. Than you all have to realize state forester can rescind fire restrictions with the EXEMPTION of their own…they can make fires bigger…use fuels to make more fuel….smoke on the line and toss cig down because hell we are burning the area anyways…incendiary devices,,,I am bored so I am stopping…I am sure this post will be passed by…but great I got to tee it up…wish more who were on the fire would tee it up

    Reply

  135. Just to keep it from not dying, and because I know a lot of the outside world drops in occasionally, I’m again asking Holly Neill to give her number for GM’s rate of travel over various portions of their descent, her numbers for how long it would take to improve the escape route, and her numbers for what GM’s rate of travel on an improved escape route would have been versus what their rate of travel was.

    Numbers have a way of sharpening focus. For Holly to say in a fashion that relies, robustly, on known facts, that the escape route was improved, she should be able to point to 1) a rate of travel reflecting an improved escape route, and 2) sufficient time for the escape route, though dense chaparral down and over rugged topography, to be improved.

    Holly your post shows you’re obviously checking this thread reasonably closely. The numbers are easy enough, so please share your thoughts on these basic issues that are at the qualitative center of how the decision to bushwhack down into that brush-filled bowl might be viewed.

    Reply

  136. Part 1

    Norb said “I will share the cost of that bottle with you Gary if I can attend.”

    And I say…sounds great Norb, I’m glad you are back! Although I thought I had a DEAL with NEIL and now I’m not so sure, she may still be harboring some resentment towards me, but she might come around. Most people don’t like me until they get to know me…and then usually they like me even less.

    Heads up everyone. I am having a really hard time wrapping my head around what has happened and comprehending what I have been reading here on this thread about what has been happening. I am getting warmed up to do some rambling here and wander down some rabbit trails, so you might want to go to bed now, or if you are not sleepy yet, you might want to keep reading because you will get sleepy by the time you are done reading this (I occasionally try to be move lovable through my use of self deprecating humor mixed in with my otherwise obnoxious and arrogant personality).

    Because I have been trying to catch up on the latest posts and understand what the USFS officials, and the firefighters themselves have said in various media blurbs that have been posted here by good ole WTKTT, regarding structure protection. As a result, I have been trying to fit some round pegs into some the square holes inside my brain and it isn’t working very well. And at this point, I think I am going to have to drill out those square holes because the round pegs are not going to become square, no matter how much I want them to, or think they should.

    The wildland firefighting world changed when I wasn’t paying very close attention to what was going on and I apparently missed the memo’s. It is like I was there for the beginning of the movie (the dawn of ICS) and then I left to get popcorn and hit the head and didn’t make it back until just before the final credits ran, so the ending didn’t make any sense to me. And for the last two years I have been catching up on the plot and what I missed, and now it all makes perfect sense.

    It is very sad that the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were burned alive…but apparently it is ACCEPTABLE! I guess I just have to accept that it was simply the cost of doing business. As I have said before, I thought Darrell Willis was a nut job when he kept talking about running into burning buildings, but it turns out he is mainstream. “They” don’t need to change their thinking, I need to change mine.

    The culture that placed buildings above the lives of wildland firefighters is not a Prescott Fire Department problem, nor it is a systemic problem throughout the wildland firefighting industrial complex. Hybrid firefighters are now acceptable products of national integrated interagency joint unified command polices and the result of the cross breeding between structural and wildland firefighters for the past 35 years. I get it. And what is more important, apparently they are being taught that it is a good idea to run towards burning structures and into burning buildings. Or at least they are not being taught NOT to do that.

    I used to think Darrell Willis was an anomaly and the thinking inside the Prescott Fire Department was an aberration, I now understand that I am the anomaly and my thinking is the aberration. And as usual, the United States Forest Service is leading the way.

    I am so embarrassed. Who am I to question how and why wildland firefighters died on the Esperanza Fire, the Yarnell Hill Fire and now the Twisp Fire, when some of the parents of the dead wildland firefighters not only do not seem to questioning these policies, but they, and the wildland firefighters themselves actually seem to be endorsing these new policies and this new group thinking. I don’t know? And if there are any parents who are upset about this way of doing business, they are being awfully quiet about it.

    In my day, there were a lot of reasons why wildland firefighters did stupid things and died, got hurt or almost died. And they were almost always tied directly to the concept of being can do, gung ho, hardcore firefighters because as Dr. Putnam has said in the past…if we didn’t stop the fire, then who were we? That is who we were and what we did, we stopped wildfires. Or at least we jumped on their backs and cut their heads off with a lady’s shovel after Mother Nature stopped them in their tracks.

    You see…it goes like this. We have a dirty little secret from my generation of wildland firefighters and my generation of wildland firefighters meant you worked for the United States Forest Service (USFS) or you worked for the USFS and then you went to work for one of the auxiliary or ancillary wildland firefighting agencies after you had made your bones running with the big dogs. And there is something the general public doesn’t know about the USFS and even if they know it, they don’t understand what it means.

    (Authors Side Note: Do you ever get the feeling I AM writing the book I will never finish, “The Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter”, it’s just that I am writing here on this blog in dribs and drabs instead of in sequential chapters?)

    Reply

    • Part 2

      The USFS is an agency within the United States Department of Agriculture (USDA) and always has been since it was first created in 1905. Most logical people would assume the USFS is in the United States Department of Interior (USDI)…just like all of the other federal agencies that are federal land management agencies like the Bureau of Land Management, the National Park Service, the United States Fish and Wildlife Service and the Bureau of Indian Affairs. Do you understand the difference?

      From Day One…the primary reason the USFS existed was to GET OUT THE CUT and not preservation of the forests. The only good tree…was on the back of a logging truck on its way to the mill to become lumber to BUILD AMERICA! As you know if you have been following our little experiment in social media…I am fond of calling the forest where I grew up, the “mighty” Coconino.

      What made it mighty you might ask? Good question. It was mighty because it produces more board feet of lumber than any other National Forest in Region 3, the Southwestern Region. That is why the mighty Coconino had four hotshot crews at one time and they still have three crews. The Coconino had four hotshot crews when there were only 50 in the entire country. That is where the money was because Timber was King and we were the Palace Guard.

      Now I know that has been slowly changing for the past 40 years or more, what with the bleeding hearts in the Sierra Club and all of the other tree huggers and everybody who wants to save the Spotted Owl, which I really don’t understand…because they aren’t even very good eatin’.

      But it is changing slowly and not as much as you would think. In fact, YOU don’t really want it to change because YOU like going to the Home Depot and finding some good looking lumber for YOUR home projects and most of YOU live in houses framed with wood or made out of wood almost entirely…and YOU want lumber readily available and very cheap.

      So…YOU won’t really see a very big change until science invents something to completely replace lumber and the USFS is moved out of the USDA and into the USDI. Then all of the tree huggers and bleeding hearts who now work for the USFS can start managing the National Forests like the NPS manages our National Parks…for preservation instead of like they are farm fields producing wheat, barley or corn crops. Get it?

      Now…I know what you are thinking. This is all VERY interesting Gary, but just what does it have to do with wildland firefighters being burned alive? I’m sure you have noticed that I usually say, “burned alive” rather than just saying they died, or passed away, or we lost them. Because that is not what is happening…they are being burned alive, and I think we owe it to them to describe exactly what is happening to them and not trying to sugarcoat it with some bullshit platitudes so we don’t feel as bad because of what they endured before death finally offered them sweet release from their agony.

      That is a very fair question. Here is why all of this is important. We never saw any reason whatsoever to risk our lives to save the forest. It was after all, just board feet that hadn’t been cut down yet. We risk our lives for lots of other reasons…we were stupid, we had flawed training, we had bad supervisors or managers or leaders, we were gung-ho, we wanted to prove ourselves, we wanted recognition, promotions, advancement, accolades, we wanted to be hero’s, we wanted others to stand in awe at our courage and wildland firefighting prowess, we had fun facing down fiery dragons and tweaking their tails to prove ourselves to ourselves and to our peers…I don’t know? Pick one, pick several, pick some other reasons.

      But one thing is for sure…we never even thought about, “Risk a lot to save a lot, risk a little to save a little, risk nothing to save nothing.” The forest was made up of trees that were just waiting to become board feet as part of somebody’s house, business or home gardening project…we didn’t really give a damn if it burned up, except it was our job to protect it and that is what we did, so we tried to do it as best we could, but it wasn’t personal…it was just business.

      But we sure as hell didn’t love the forest like people love their houses, their neighborhoods, their towns and cities, their belongings, their family photo albums, their wedding dress and photos etc. We just backed up to the next drainage and backfired it…burn baby, burn. That isn’t an option when those drainages are filled with Mr. and Mrs. John Q. Public’s little slice of heaven on a bun now is it?

      Under this New World Order (for lack of a better term) up is down, day is night, black is white, good is bad, and so on and so forth. As Citizens of the Republic…we really do need to move along, there really is nothing to see here, these WEREN’T the droids we were looking for, Karels was right, nobody did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire. The 19 Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots who died were expectants…nothing more. And if you are not a current of former military planner you might very well ask the question, what exactly…is an expectant? That is another very good question!

      And to answer that question, I am again turning to an excerpt from my much anticipated book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods” where I address this very issue;

      “The 1970’s witnessed the rapid and complete militarization of wildland firefighting in the United States. The Happy Jack Hotshots were stationed at one of the forward outposts for this transitional institutional change.

      Firefighting and the military share numerous similarities; several of which I discuss in this book. Drawing comparisons between the two professions is something that is commonly and legitimately done by many people.

      Fighting wildfire is similar in most respects to a complex military campaign against an enemy army with continuous shifting battlefronts and constantly changing battlefield conditions. A firefighter not only had to combat the main fire; but also is constantly engaged in scattered skirmishes against smaller spot fires or breaches in the fire line.

      One of the most important similarities is the quote, “No plan survives contact with the enemy.”

      There are however, two very big and very important differences between fighting wildfires and fighting enemy combatants. Wildfires do not think. Wildfires have to follow the laws of nature. And therefore fire behavior can be predicted with a high degree of accuracy.

      There is however, one major distinguishing difference between the two professions. There is never a time or a place where firefighting has a parallel for the military phrase of “acceptable losses” or “expectants” (casualties who are expected to die).

      The forces arrayed against wildfire are structured very much like a large and well disciplined military. There are look-out towers, spotter planes, and ground patrols to find, fight and precisely establish the location of the wildfire.

      There are initial attack forces that are able to mobilize; many from fire stand-by duty and quickly respond to the fire and usually stop it while it is still small usually a single snag burning with some ground fire, a camp fire that was not completely extinguished.

      Planning officers for fire suppression operations, unlike their military counterparts, are never expected to calculate anticipated casualty rates when formulating their war strategies or battlefield tactics.

      Now I think I am going to have to re-write parts of my book, because things have changed since my day. Now planning officers for fire suppression operations do need to start planning for expectants, which is a military term that was commonly used during the Vietnam War era to describe “expected battlefield casualties.” Because you see, in my day, everybody was expected to go home once the wildfire was declared out, now we have expectants. No big deal, we just have to honor them and move on.

      So I guess that when it comes to the GMIHC the original narrative must have been correct, these men were not victims of a broken system run amok, they were simply acceptable casualties in the war to save structures for wildfire…I get it now! You win! The Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were not a BLUEPRINT FOR DISASTER…they were a BLUEPRINT FOR THE FUTURE!

      Reply

      • Well… someone has forgotten to tell any number of people about these new ‘expectants’.

        When 160+ plus people in the Yarnell area who DID lose their “little pieces of heaven” for what looked very much like a complete botch-job that rose to all kinds of levels of ‘negligence’… a Judge in Arizona said…

        “You are mistaken. The people that LOOKED like they were there doing things to even TRY to protect your houses didn’t have one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to be doing that… or even giving you the IMPRESSION that is what they were doing. Case(s) dismissed.”

        So that aspect of this crazy ( new ) ‘game’ that’s going on has to be factored in.

        According to recent legal rulings… any Wildland firefighter that responds to any ‘Unified Command’ request and even lifts one finger to try and protect either lives or a structure is already committing ‘gross negligence’… since doing anything like that is totally OUTSIDE their (current) job description.

        It still remains to be seen exactly what happened in Twisp… but by all accounts so far… the man who was in charge of that ‘residential property fire’ at first ( Chief Don Waller of Okanogan County Fire District #6 ) was not only perfectly aware that there were no ‘Safety Zones’ up Woods Canyon Road… but he may have even been the one heard over the scanner saying “DO NO PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

        So that doesn’t sound like when these ‘cooperating forces’ showed up straight from the Okanogan Forest… anyone at all said…

        “We’ve got to protect those houses up there and you guys are the ‘wildfire’ guys… so how do we do that ipso pronto?”

        There also was not the opportunity for them to then say…

        “Not our fucking job”.

        It is looking for all the world right now like the LOCAL FD#6 guy ( Chief Don Waller ) was the one who knew from the get-go it was too dangerous to even think about going up Woods Canyon Road just to protect the structures… but it was then the ‘Unified Command’ and USFS and DNR people who might have ‘overruled’ this on-scene guy and ran up there to ‘protect houses’ anyway.

        So yea… the world is VERY much ‘upside down’ right now.

        We’ve got FFs running to do things even local structure guys aren’t even asking them to do… and then when they ‘burn to death’ and die horribly… we’ve got Judges saying “That was never their job to even think about doing that”.

        So who is LETTING this insanity happen?

        “LOOK UP”.

        Reply

        • Yes…as I said, I am very confused. I told you a long time ago I thought I had heard all of them, but I had never heard of “Death From Above” (except from paratroopers) but it really says it all.

          I hope you (and the rest of us) keep both eyes on that stupid son-of-a-bitch USFS jerk off that is running this new cover up white wash bullshit for the Twisp Fire.

          Reply

          • Reply to Gary Olson post on September 13, 2015 at 10:39 pm

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> Yes…as I said, I am very confused. I told you a long time
            >> ago I thought I had heard all of them, but I had never
            >> heard of “Death From Above” (except from paratroopers)
            >> but it really says it all.

            I actually didn’t even get my ‘description’ right up above.

            The 160 plus plaintiffs in the Yarnell property damage suits were ALSO saying that even if it wasn’t someone’s job to protect their houses… that the ‘agencies’ that had ‘assumed responsibility’ for the fire since Friday and had PREVENTED local FFs from even going up there to ‘take care of it’ still had a responsibility to give them more time to evacuate and save as much of their possessions as possible.

            Bzzzzzzt. Nope.

            Judge Richard Gama said “Thank you for playing our little game but NO… they did NOT even have one additional atomic molecule of responsibility to even protect YOU or give you any kind of notice about anything. Have a nice life.”

            So what I really should have said up above was…

            ————————————————————
            When 160+ plus people in the Yarnell area who DID lose their “little pieces of heaven” for what looked very much like a complete botch-job that rose to all kinds of levels of ‘negligence’…

            …AND when some of them pointed out that they also almost lost their LIVES due to the same botch-job with evacuation notification…

            …a Judge in Arizona said…

            “You are mistaken. The people that LOOKED like they were there doing things to even TRY to protect YOU OR YOUR PROPERTY didn’t have one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to be doing that… or even giving you the IMPRESSION that is what they were doing. Case(s) dismissed.”

            So that aspect of this crazy ( new ) ‘game’ that’s going on has to be factored in.
            —————————————————————

            >> Gary Olson said…
            >>
            >> I hope you (and the rest of us) keep both eyes on that stupid
            >> son-of-a-bitch USFS jerk off that is running this new cover
            >> up white wash bullshit for the Twisp Fire.

            Something tells me that even if anyone ever gets to SEE these new ‘Coordinated Response Protocol’ report(s)… they are going to make Dr. Seuss seem like high literature and the report from Jim Karels and Mike Dudley look like a dissertation filled with details.

            I actually still can’t even verify that Washington State’s version of ADOSH ( called LIDOSH ) is even involved yet… or even cares that 3 men have died a horrible death in a Washington State workplace.

            Reply

            • Unfortunately you are probably right because I can’t even figure out what this new guy is talking about with his reference to leaving out all of the “nonsense.”

              And I think it is obvious he can’t even figure out what he is talking about. AND if your description of what happened on the Twisp Fire turns out to be accurate it is going to be a tragedy on top of a tragedy, just like the Yarnell Hill Fire.

              Reply

    • Bad typo.

      The culture that placed buildings above the lives of wildland firefighters is not a Prescott Fire Department problem, nor it is a systemic problem throughout the wildland firefighting industrial complex.

      Please take out the “nor” in the second sentemce, “it is a systemic problem throughout the wildland firefighting industrial complex.”

      ‘

      Reply

      • Will Gary that is a lot to digest from above but I hate to say it you may be right and we got lost some where in the Transition.

        Then I go back and remember why I retired I HATED THE NEW WORLD FOREST SERVICE—I retired at 50 I could have gone to 55 I could have waited a year and got a extra cash buy out of $25,000 to retire.
        The Government wanted all of us old Smokey’s gone to bring their new young and inexperienced followers forward into the Future USFS Maybe McDonough was right about the 10 and 18

        I HOPE NOT I look at all these current fires and think for the hours worked there is still a very low fatality rate their still doing something right.

        Reply

        • I don’t know if they are doing something right, or they just get lucky most of the time. And yes, I have admitted, and continue to admit, that Eric Marsh and technically Jesse Steed were directly responsible for the deaths of the GMIHC, but also as I keep saying, I have been looking for other contributing factors and I continue to strongly believe the use of ICS and the confusion that results in everyone’s mind as how to implement the concept where the rubber meets the road, is the primary contributing factor in all of the deaths on the Esperanza, the Yarnell Hill and now the Twisp Fire.

          Just imagine how good the stats would look if none of those wildland firefighters hadn’t died as a direct result, however flawed of their commitment to structure protection. That would have just left us with the South Canyon Fire (often mistakenly referred to as the Storm King Fire).

          South Canyon was a stand alone example of what can happen in the fog of war during a blowup because wildland firefighting is an inherently dangerous job.

          And I haven’t gotten around to responding to your comment down below. I have no reason to believe that it didn’t happen exactly as you say it did because although you were gone, you maintained your contacts, some of which were at the highest level, plus you yourself were at one of the highest levels in the organization. In addition, your description fits in with my general knowledge of how things are done and makes logical sense of how they would come up with an interagency systematic plan to implement a cover up strategy in the investigating wildland fire disasters.

          And as I keep saying, the chances of somebody actually going to prison or successfully beig sued for trying to do the right thing while following most of the rules most of the time and doing those things that seem reasonable under the circumstances are going to get a pass from everyone. Society, prosecutors, judges and juries. America loves her firefighters more than any other civil servants.

          I have personally seen jury nullification in a case we did against a fireman…and it was a slam dunk. Side note, it was not related to anything he did on the job but was other serious criminal activity and we couldn’t even get a conviction on him, it was an acquittal in the face of overwhelming evidence. American loves her firefighters.

          And as a quick reminder, even Daniels did not get a few hours of home detention for felony stupidity and killing firefighters, he got it for lying about what he did way after the fact. Don’t do that.

          BUT…if the families of the GMIHC want the deaths of their loved ones to mean something, they should be working on having you testify before a congressional sub committee on natural resources. The USFS has a long history of only responding to congressional oversight and new laws that are passed to force them to do the right thing.

          It’s like Winston Churchill said about Americans in general. We always do the right thing…but only after exhausting all other possibilities.

          Reply

    • It is hard for me to understand much criticism toward the ilks of a Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, or Ted Putnam. Your histories and experience speaks for itself. You have educated me that the Hybrid firefighter has no business in tending wild fires beyond their very initial stages. Wild fire fighting is obviously an entirely different mind set and mode of operation requiring different mental and physical requirements As Dr. Ted Putnam put it to me, those wild land fighters are entirely unequipped to take on house burnings and with their tools and experience not much better off than a citizen with a garden hose. He for one did not think the Hybrid firefighting idea was feasible.

      It does seem the wild land fighter ought to have the physical strength of say a logger, miner or rough and tumble cowboy. I never saw a woman miner or logger and I have done plenty of both jobs. That is not to say there might be ample women with the physical stamina and strength to do such jobs. I did see one cow girl that was pretty damn good at roping and better than me so that I did her flanking of the calves so she could come down and stick the branding iron to them. She weighed in at 250 pounds and owned the ranch inherited from her Dad and was pretty physically capable.

      Then I look at the city fire fighter and I would surmise that the big city fellow has to be just about as tough as the wild land fighter–climbing ladders and hauling bodies out, etc. Well maybe not the city of Congress and Yarnell–seems that they too might sometime have to use physical exertion–but then I was informed by the Dolan Springs Fire Chief that the main thing they do is contain the fires so they do not spread. It is safer to let it burn rather than mess around too close to a burning building—So douse it best you can and someone than can manage a hose is best suited to the job. I would guess a little extra fat around the gut would help there seeing that the pressure on those hoses might be tough for a flyweight.

      Well do not give up keeping people like myself informed. It does help me understand the firefighting business but more than that think of the many young firefighters who can learn from the ongoing exchange of information and ideas–lives will certainly be saved.

      Now about getting a square peg into a round hole. There actually is a formula for that and most cow pokes know the formula but very few math majors or scientists know it–if you don’t believe it ask one. The formula is to ram a 4×4 up a bull’s ass. One of the introductions into becoming a cow boy.

      Reply

      • OK…good tip…I will give that a try. Thanks

        Although in all seriousness, I am glad to be in the company of Dr. Ted Putnam when it comes to wildland firefighter safety in general and hybrid firefighters specifically. As I have said before, he was the lone voice on this subject for decades before anybody else even gave it a second thought and was ridiculed and punished by the “suits.”

        Reply

  137. Powers said:
    dale1—-I Called Holly A DIVERSITY HIRE FROM BACK IN THE 80s.
    may be before your time.

    I also have respect for some who got no special treatment and came up from crewmen to the top by dirt grubbing hard work many are my friends and many came thru the Hot Shots.

    Holly I don’t respect did you get it that time????????

    Holly: So Bob Powers, I get that you think you have investigated into my credentials by stating that I was a diversity hire from the 1980’s.

    Uh, I never even fought fire in the 80’s, nor was I ever hired as a diversity candidate. I started out as a GS-04 FFT2 with a taskbook.

    Do you even know who you are actually tracking and what you are talking about? Why would you raise the insulting and inaccurate 1980’s gender flag? So you can “prove” your disrespect for me as a female firefighter with a voice? Right on bro.

    The problem with credibility here is the lack of a solid and accurate double checking of the facts.
    Another problem is a vicious and mean spirited attempt to discredit and mock anyone who doesn’t mirror your opinions. Like Powers, I’m a pimple on somebody’s ass? Seriously? Oh and I may very well qualify as an idiot, whatever the fuck my name is.

    I admire an intelligent, respectful debate and sharing of ideas. I respect the hell out of intellectual disagreements. What has happened to civil, respectful, intelligent discussion and debate? The name calling, personal insults and angry attempts to bash and discredit anyone who doesn’t fit into your theories is kindergarten pathetic. What is this, the Jerry Springer Show? If it’s business, it’s unprofessional and low class business at its best. Which is why I don’t frequent this blog.

    And for WTK and your ill thought out speculation that Bob Brandon is your indication that chainsaw work was done pre or post fire in the valley: I’ll throw you a tip here: I have hiked the area with several firefighters involved in mop up on July 1, 2013. They and others verify that to their knowledge, there was no chainsaw work done after the fatalities that night, or during mop up the next day. There were pulaski cuts made. There are notable differences between pre and post fire, fresh or old pulaski vs chainsaw cuts. One person recalls seeing the same chainsaw cut stobs shortly after the fire and wondering about them as well.

    This doesn’t mean that no one ran a saw pre or post fire, it means I haven’t been able to rule it in or out yet. Which is why no one should draw an absolute conclusion on whether the route was improved or not. Keeping an open mind is healthy. There’s more but I’m not going to waste any more of my time here, which only amounts to exposing myself to more tired insults.

    The worst part about this is not the Jerry Springer sideshow, but the complete failure of original investigators to even notice the route down. Yet they claim and assign blame that the route was not improved. But they left the job of actually checking it to someone else.

    This is a work in progress, which means actual on scene work, verifying and interviewing and ruling things in or out. This is not your WTK particular brand of speculation and assumption based on something you’ve read in a newspaper, and then decided on what you think MIGHT have happened, just because B. Brandon sounds good to you on paper. Accuracy counts, facts matter and there is no substitute for doing your own investigative work, instead of an endless barrage of inaccurate speculation. Enough Said.

    Reply

    • Well I got you to answer But your still on that High Horse of yours and You are still not a important person in my book. You are the speculator and you do not follow the evidence or the facts.
      Your still an (1980 Diversity hire) with the attitude you are owed something.
      My investigation says there was no LCES and you do not answer the simple question why would a saw crew go back to the crew after reaching the Ranch
      and if so why did they not see the Freight train coming at them and warn the Crew? Because they were never there. Your Idea of a Lookout and a safety route says volumes about your lack of experience.

      I said I would bet that the cur brush stabs you were looking at were made by the Ranch owners a Year or more prior to clear the fence line.

      So ya your still not more than a pimple on a real fireman’s ass and it has nothing to do with you being a woman Its your audacity to think you have all the answers and every one else is wrong Seen your type before Men and woman you do not impress me.

      Reply

      • Also on the Stabs if there had been any after the fire that night they would have shown WHITE on top of the stump.
        So I never said that they were cut after the fire went thru or during mop up I am not sure who said that .
        There are several other possibilities of why there were cut stabs done before the fire. Including any number of ranch activities.

        For your training manual—-Look Outs must have three things to be affective—–1. Communications 2. a clear view of the Fire.
        3. a clear view of the crew. To be a lookout you must have all 3 of those covered at all times on a fire.
        The other things like training, experience, weather, fuels fire spread info. Strike team leader qualified. Marsh was qualified
        But failed to meet the eyes on the crew and the fire if he had that the crew would have never been told to leave the Saddle .
        and drop into the canyon.

        Reply

    • WELL! I definitely picked up on a couple of more shots to me! OUCH! AND…even after I apologized so nicely to you AND agreed to pony up (although Norb said he would help defray that cost ) for the entire bottle! AND as a point of discussion…I said that YOU (NEIL) were an idiot (only) if you believed Eric Marsh was a (good) scout for his crew so…

      In addition, FYI…I definitely think our little experiment in social media is a lot more like the Morton Downey Jr. Show rather than the Jerry Springer Show!

      Reply

    • Reply to Holly Neill on September 13, 2015 at 11:09 am

      >> Holly Neill said…
      >>
      >> And for WTK and your ill thought out speculation that Bob Brandon is your
      >> indication that chainsaw work was done pre or post fire in the valley: I’ll throw
      >> you a tip here: I have hiked the area with several firefighters involved in mop
      >> up on July 1, 2013. They and others verify that to their knowledge, there was
      >> no chainsaw work done after the fatalities that night, or during mop up the
      >> next day. There were pulaski cuts made. There are notable differences
      >> between pre and post fire, fresh or old pulaski vs chainsaw cuts.
      >> One person recalls seeing the same chainsaw cut stobs shortly after
      >> the fire and wondering about them as well.

      My only intention in pointing out that online testimony from Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon to you is that if you had NOT seen that testimony… it would behoove you to read it.

      It seemed directly related to what you were ‘announcing’ you had found.

      It seems that you HAVE read it… or you have at least talked to people who might be the same FFs that Bob Brandon was referring to.

      For anyone who missed that exchange… here, again, is a link to that personal account written by Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon and sitting on the public ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ website…

      http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html

      That is ALSO the testimony that includes Bob Brandon saying that he and his fellow Peeples Valley Firefighters were debriefed/interviewed by some unknown group of investigators. This was on July 2, 2013, just 48 hours after the incident but the SAIT hadn’t even been fully formed yet nor had it been given its ‘delegation of authority’ to being its investigation.

      Brandon recalls that these unknown ‘investigators’ walked away with not only their ‘testimongy’… but actual ‘flash cards’ containing copies of photos ( and videos? ) from all their cameras/smartphones and with known ‘timelines’, as well as cellphone call records and copies of text messages.

      Bob Brandon says he doesn’t know what THEY ( the unidentified investigators ) did with everything they collected from them.

      The specific evidence he says was collected from them has never seen the light of day and is likely still in the possession of Arizona Forestry. It was all, apparently, withheld from any/all valid and legal Arizona Open Records and FOIA requests.

      From Bob Brandon’s ‘in his own words’ testimony…
      ————————————————————————-
      The next day ( July 2 ) they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.

      Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
      ————————————————————————–

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> This doesn’t mean that no one ran a saw pre or post fire, it means I haven’t
      >> been able to rule it in or out yet. Which is why no one should draw an absolute
      >> conclusion on whether the route was improved or not. Keeping an open mind
      >> is healthy. There’s more but I’m not going to waste any more of my time here,
      >> which only amounts to exposing myself to more tired insults.

      I’ve asked you this question before and you didn’t answer it, so I’ll ask it again.

      Is there EVER going to come a time when all this ‘research’ you have been doing is going to be published in some way, shape or form… or is it all just for your own personal edification?

      Are you actually collaborating with John Maclean on some kind of book… or are you planning on writing a book ( or paper ) of your own.

      I’m just curious.

      You also said something down below ( on this thread ) that I wanted to ask you a follow-up question on…

      >> On August 31, 2015 at 11:36 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) said…
      >>
      >> I guess it just hasn’t dawned on Holly yet that any actual confirmation that
      >> Eric Marsh was, in fact, out AHEAD of those men that afternoon and might
      >> have been telling them it was OK to ‘come on down’ is even more disturbing
      >> than any other scenario.
      >>
      >> Not only would the time that was wasted doing this ‘scouting’ ( which should
      >> have been done earlier ) the actual time the other men needed to remain
      >> alive that day… to even suggest that Marsh was acting as their ‘forward
      >> lookout’ means also having to accept that he obviously FAILED that task
      >> in a horrific manner.
      >>
      >> On September 1, 2015 at 10:55 am, Holly Neill replied…
      >>
      >> If LCES was mitigated, then something else went terribly wrong. Holly

      Have you formed any opinion(s) about what you think the ‘something else’ might have been?

      Reply

    • Holly,

      With regard to improving the escape route, have you ever worked in dense chaparral? Have you ever hiked in dense chaparral?

      If not, have you ever helped a friend cut back oleander shrubs, even?

      1) In the timeframe in question, there’s no way meaningful improvement could have been done to that escape route. Go, get a few competent people, and test it out in similar dense chaparral on rugged topography. They call it bear-wallow for a reason.

      2) The painstakingly slow rate of progress of the crew shows that, in fact, the route wasn’t meaningfully improved. If you disagree with this statement, please show your own math in detail in terms of rate of travel over relevant sections of their descent. I’m not surprised myself at how slow they traveled, though. It’s what I would expect from a crew being asked to slog through dense chaparral.

      IF you assert that the escape route had been meaningfully improved, you have to 1) explain how on earth it was feasible to improve the route during the available time, and 2) then explain why, with an improved escape route, the crew still travelled at a pace suggesting the escape rout wasn’t meaningfully improved.

      The college boys have an saying or rule called Occam’s Razor, namely that the simplest explanation normally works. In the case of YHF, either your have to jump through several convoluted hoops to claim meaningful improvement to the route, or you can conclude what all the evidence available suggests, namely that the route couldn’t be improved even with a bulldozer in the time required, and that given the crew’s progress likewise they were clearly bushwhacking down through dense chaparral.

      I think your efforts in general are really cool, and am not trying to be adversarial here. I suggest you try to assign your own timestamps for certain locations of the crew, and look at rates of travel. Take the chaparral and the rate of travel into account, and the time it takes to cut a path through dense chaparral into account as well. The simple math suggests that it couldn’t happen. It is possible that someone lopped a limb here or there, but all that means is that there were 99 other limbs that needed to be lopped to then allow easier progress for the crew.

      Reply

      • BTW my comment about oleander isn’t to suggest it’s a local plant, simply that it’s a less prickly Mediterranean version of a dense plant in a similar landscape, and if someone hasn’t dealt hands-on with the particular chaparral plants present at the YHF that even trimming oleander could give some idea. But, going to similar areas in AZ or CA and trying to do a little vertical route improvement would be a real good idea for anyone who hasn’t yet had the pleasure.

        Reply

        • Amen— California Chemise 5 to 8 Ft. High so thick you can not even crawl thru it in between bushes. Look at on of the first pictures of the Crew taken by Joy walking up the trail to the fire that morning a classic example of Calif. Chemise dense part dead. The dead dose not brake easy and bounces if you try to cut it with a Pulaski Southern Calif. learned early back in the 40’s to use Brush hooks or saws. It is hard slow going work to even cut a trail.
          I will also add if you look at the size of the brush in the above picture reference. When marsh was in that clear to the ranch he would not have been able to see the Fire the brush was to high and to thick the crew is walking up thru 7 to 10 Ft Brush it would have been that bad in the Canyon.
          The perfect death trap we all learned to stay out of.
          End of lesson.

          On the other hand a trail already cut traveling down hill a HS crew could make a mile in 10 to 12 min. a mile and a half in 17 min. the crew bailing off from the rest spot would have been at the ranch in 20 min. 25 max.
          add it up 1505 pulse 25=== 1530 they did not get a full mile in 45 min and the first quarter was on a ridge to the saddle. they spent the rest of the time cutting their way thru brush they made good time for that but to slow for the Fire and it beat them.

          Reply

  138. For all here —–Lessons learned

    Some time in the 90’s after the South Canyon Fire or the Fire on the Salmon that took the Lives of 2 Helitack a new way of investigating accident cause took hold.

    That was some how to protect from litigation those who were in charge being sued in Court.

    So outside the investigation and what the Federal Government did was internally acknowledge what happened biased on the 10 and 18 and fire supervision mistakes by all overhead were dealt with internally.

    So while the outside world was not involved The FS and BLM were quietly sending out memos or changing protocol, silently removing or retraining Fire overhead involved and letting training of Fire Fighters evaluate the cause factors or what was not considered in the 10 and 18 discussions.
    Let the legal system determine the cause of the Accident and not assign miss management by Identifying the 10 SO that were violated and assign who did what to cause the accident.

    In this process they are able to get lessons learned thru other means than the investigation assigning what happen and who caused it. Should that surprise any one that has worked for the Federal Government?

    This new system accomplishes the Lessons learned and keeping the investigation form identifying and assigning blame. Dell with every thing internally while keeping form sending any one to court over the specific violations found. It seems to have worked well on Yarnell although they did refine the Investigation Process.

    My conclusions are that this process is accomplishing the Lessons learned for the Ground pounders
    as I have said over and over if you understand the 10 and 18 you can in training Identify what happened on any fire. The rest is human factors that have to be addressed internally thru severial different forms.

    The Government is not going to be held accountable for naming Names any more thus the redacted and order to all employees involved to not release any of their personal info they have on a fire.

    I do not agree with this form of hiding information from the Courts but it is working to keep from assigning blame that then ends up in court and still accomplishes the Lessons Learned Goal.

    The Government reevaluated the Teams and qualifications internally 6 months after the Yarnell Hill Fire. The Human Factors are more complicated and I am not sure how they are dealing with that.
    There is a retraining and heavy emphasis on the 10 and 18. in the 40 hr. FF refresher courses and the Teams annual training get to gather you can see it on the Fires with briefings.

    Hope that helps–

    Reply

    • Yes Bob…I found this post to be very helpful, although there are some other words I could use to describe it. Words like…stunning, staggering, or shocking maybe? But then again, since I am an Alex Jones type conspiracy theorist….I don’t really know?

      I do know one thing however, none of the followers of Alex Jones can name a single Tea Party Patriot or any other American who has been arrested by United Nations New World Order troops and taken away in black helicopters to be interned in sports stadiums turned into concentration camps.

      I on the other hand, can name (and have done so on this thread) 27 wildland firefighters who have been burned alive as a direct result of the New World Order (Joint ICS Interagency Coordinated Unified Command Bullshit) and The Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter, so…

      I was already trying to process what has been posted in my absence while working on my own two cents worth of a response, but now you have greatly added (thank you) to my task.

      But first…I do have some really good news for everyone. My dear wife and I just got back from playin’ in the Oregon Dunes. We have transitioned to Off Highway Vehicles instead of using our Jeeps in the dunes. We just bought some very large and very powerful machines (a quad and a side by side) so I can go further into the back country…much faster and not worry about breakin’ our old Jeeps or at least worry about how to recover them if I do.

      I now have a way to get adrenaline dumps whenever I start tweakin’ without doing anything really too dangerous. The trick is to learn how to walk that very fine line between earning the dump without getting hurt, much less killed. And I think I have found a way. If you ever do hear I died with a very heavy ATV on top of me I want you to say, “Well…at least he died doing what he needed to occasionally do…chasing an adrenaline high!”

      But I do have one question Bob. Don’t you mean Thirtymile, because I am not aware of any legal or civil issues that came out of the South Canyon Fire?

      Reply

      • Clarifying—–I used the South Canyon as a Pivot point of the start
        of this new change which took a little time to gain momentum.
        Some time from 1994 to 2000 this new do not give the Who, What, When, Where, Why and How Investigation answers to protect from Law Suits. About the time the Human Factors was also gaining momentum. I was out of the info chain so cant nail down the exact time.

        Reply

  139. **
    ** THE GABBERT INTERVIEW WITH MCDONOUGH
    **
    ** MORE ANALYSIS

    Something that got ‘lost in the noise’ last week in the intial discussions about the new Bill Gabbert interview with McDonough was what McDonough had to say about that 3rd attempt to DEPOSE him ( under oath ) on May 28, 2015… which ended up being ‘canceled’.

    This was the last attempt on the part of the Arizona Attorney General’s office to get any kind of actual ‘under oath’ testimony from McDonough… since just 2 weeks after that 3rd attempt to depose him we now know there was a ‘settlement’ being approved by the Arizona Legislature.

    That’s the settlement that was announced with great fanfare just before the second anniversary of the tragedy. That ‘settlement’ did NOT include ALL of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… but the press failed to accurately report about that.

    From the ( recent ) Gabbert interview with McDonough…

    ————————————————————————————
    THE DEPOSITION

    McDonough was scheduled to provide sworn testimony during a deposition on May 28, 2015 in Phoenix, but he said it was canceled by the State of Arizona. He says everyone else was telling their side of the story, and he wanted to tell his side.

    “And I guess the State didn’t think it was important enough to hear my opinion again. I don’t know why they canceled the deposition.”

    Do you wish they had not canceled it?

    “Nothing crazy or new would have come out of it,” says McDonough. “It would have been more of a reconfirmation of what I saw that day and trying to make sure my brothers were not going to get blamed for something they didn’t do. That was the biggest thing. There have been a lot of fingers pointed … I just wanted to make sure that I was standing up for my brothers. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t letting people tell stories that weren’t true.”
    ————————————————————————————

    McDonough ( once again ) doesn’t even seem to say WHAT ‘stories’ he is even talking about that he is adamant ‘aren’t true’.

    Regarding the ‘canceled’ 3rd attempt to depose him…

    “Nothing crazy or new would have come out of it,” says McDonough.

    Really? Nothing NEW at all?… like.. fer instance… what Gabbert now reports?…

    “He (Brendan) did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”

    Was Brendan trying to say he was NOT going to supply that NEW information, ever under-oath, so even if that 3rd deposition attempt HAD gone forward it really would have been ( as he said to Gabbert ) just “Nothing crazy or NEW… a reconfirmation of what I saw that day”?

    OR… has Brendan actually convinced himself now that what he has just told Gabbert he heard that day really is NOT ‘new information’?

    As for Brendan’s statement to Gabbert…

    “And I guess the State didn’t think it was important enough to hear my opinion again.”

    Brendan is very mistaken if ( even now ) he thinks attorneys for the Arizona Attorney General’s office were going to all that trouble to try and depose him simply to be “seeking his opinion”.

    There were already ‘credible’ reports that Brendan had, indeed, withheld critical information about things he ‘heard’ that fateful afternoon from investigators during THREE separate interviews… and there was no doubt he was going to be asked about that ‘under oath’ this time.

    Brendan added ( to Gabbert )…

    “I don’t know why they canceled the deposition.”

    It has never been a ‘mystery’ at all why that third attempt to do an under-oath deposition with McDonough ( scheduled for May 28, 2015 ) was canceled… and it is ‘not credible’ to think that McDonough did NOT know the ‘why’ regarding the cancellation.

    Just 48 hours after that 3rd attempt to depose him… the reason WHY that scheduled deposition was canceled was publicly reported by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez of AZCENTRAL.

    It was because of the ‘hard-ball’ being played by McDonough’s own attorney.

    AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Yarnell hotshot deposition delayed over legal dispute
    Published: 7:17 p.m. MST May 30, 2015 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/politicalinsider/2015/05/30/yarnell-fire-hotshot-brendan-mcdonough-deposition-postponed/28243273/

    From the article…
    ————————————————————————————-
    Deposition postponed … The sworn deposition of Brendan McDonough, the lone surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, did not take place last week as scheduled.

    Plans to depose him Thursday about the events surrounding the Yarnell Hill Fire, where 19 members of the crew perished, were derailed over a dispute about who could attend.

    McDonough’s attorney, David Shapiro, wrote to attorneys representing the state that McDonough would participate in one deposition, which could be attended by attorneys in both the workplace and civil litigation cases: “Unless, of course, your goal never was to foster transparency, encourage truth-finding, and minimize stress and trauma on the impacted parties,” Shapiro wrote in one e-mail.

    Dave Selden, attorney for state forestry, wrote he could not agree to the conditions, saying that he is only involved in the workplace-safety case and that Shapiro would have to make arrangements for future depositions with other attorneys.

    “My interest is to obtain the full, complete and truthful testimony of Mr. McDonough,” Selden wrote Shapiro. “I believe it will be less stressful for him and that the purpose of the deposition in obtaining his full, complete and truthful testimony will be enhanced if the deposition is not a spectacle attended by a large number of other persons.”

    McDonough is expected to shed light on what he heard during a radio conversation between Granite Mountain Hotshots supervisor Eric Marsh and his deputy, Jesse Steed, shortly before the crew was overcome by the fire. According to one unofficial account, Marsh was purported to have ordered Steed to abandon a safe zone and join him with the crew at another location near where the crew died a short time later.
    ————————————————————————————-

    So the REASON that the last attempt to depose McDonough ( on May 30, 2015 ) was cancelled was because of the ‘ultimatum’ that had been presented by McDonough’s own lawyer, David Shapiro.

    Mr. Shapiro was ‘informing’ Arizona Forestry that his client ( McDonugh ) would now only agree to give ONE single ‘under-oath’ interview… and that would be it. End of story.

    If there was ANYONE who wanted to attend, from ANY of the pending hearing tracks or civil litigation… then they could come, but there would be absolutely no other under-oath interviews with McDonough after that. Zero. Zip. Nada.

    Are we supposed to believe Brendan McDonough had no idea his own criminal defense attorney was, in fact, issuing this ‘ultimatum’ surrounding his deposition?

    I don’t know which is HARDER to believe, at this point.

    1) That Brendan McDonough would be allowing his own attorney to be doing that kind of ‘hard ball’ with attorneys from the Arizona Attorney General’s office WITHOUT being aware of it.

    OR…

    2) That Brendan McDonough would be allowing his own attorney to be doing that kind of ‘hard ball’ with attorneys from the Arizona Attorney General’s office, as per his own wishes, and he now doesn’t seem to remember it was that very ‘hard-ball’ coming from HIS side of the table that got the 3rd deposition attempt canceled.

    So just ‘for the record’… the Brendan McDonough ‘deposition’ attempt history looks like this…

    1) Canceled 48 hours beforehand by McDonough himself. He decided at the last minute that he should have a criminal attorney heading into any ‘under-oath’ deposition ( for reasons still unknown ), and his attorney ( Mr. David Shapiro ) was fully engaged in a murder trial that wouldn’t end for another 3 or 4 months, in February of 2015.

    2) Canceled just a few days beforehand by Brendan’s attorney, Mr. David Shapiro. The cancellation notice was accompanied by a letter from Brendan’s PTSD therapist saying it would not have been good for his/her ‘patient’ to testify at that time.

    3) Canceled at the last minute because Brendan’s attorney, Mr. David Shapiro, was now insisting that his client would only agree to ONE single ‘under-oath’ deposition that would have to suffice for ALL pending litigation, regardless of origin, party or jurisdiction. Attorney David Selden ( representing only Arizona Forestry ) informed Shapiro that he did not even have the authority to grant a request like that.

    McDonough clearly stated to Gabbert what his own ‘goal’ was in consenting to the interview…

    “Some people thought that I ‘sold out’ by doing the book and that I was going to write about something that I didn’t tell the investigators about, but that’s not the truth. That’s not who I am. I wouldn’t sell out my brothers that saved my life in order to do a book. I wanted to talk to you because I feel the community thinks I sold out. I wanted to clear things up with the wildland firefighting community.”

    So I wonder…

    What does the ‘Wildland Firefighting Community’ think?

    Has he accomplished what he says he wants with just this one Gabbert interview?

    Has he ( once and for all? ) ‘cleared things up’ with the ‘Wildland Firefighting Community’?

    Reply

    • You want to hear third party not my view …
      current in field …
      the recent donut interview ..
      not viewed as journalism but more like one a publicist would do…
      ..hard for me to post but that’s what was said

      Reply

      • It is what it is ( the Gabbert interview ).

        I really am, though, just honestly wondering if the target audience that Brendan was trying to reach with that interview really does think he has fully and totally ‘cleared things up” to THEIR satisfaction with just that one interview.

        Even with the comments open again at the bottom of the article.. there’s nothing appearing to indicate he has succeeded with that ( and with that ‘community’ ) one way or the other.

        Reply

        • How many times must Brendan be “called out” to tell the whole story? That he sidesteps the questions by answering “…this is what I want to do…”.

          How long can it go on for?

          I’d be embarrassed and ashamed of myself pulling stunts like that.

          ..and now the Twisp fire, nothing has been learned from Yarnell, because the full story there is unknown.

          I admire you all on here, that you keep going in the face of so many roadblocks, trying to get the answers piece by piece. You really are the “good” guys.

          Reply

          • It is hard for me to understand much criticism toward the ilks of a Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, or Ted Putnam. Your histories and experience speaks for itself. You have educated me that the Hybrid firefighter has no business in tending wild fires beyond their very initial stages. Wild fire fighting is obviously an entirely different mind set and mode of operation requiring different mental and physical requirements As Dr. Ted Putnam put it to me, those wild land fighters are entirely unequipped to take on house burnings and with their tools and experience not much better off than a citizen with a garden hose. He for one did not think the Hybrid firefighting idea was feasible.

            It does seem the wild land fighter ought to have the physical strength of say a logger, miner or rough and tumble cowboy. I never saw a woman miner or logger and I have done plenty of both jobs. That is not to say there might be ample women with the physical stamina and strength to do such jobs. I did see one cow girl that was pretty damn good at roping and better than me so that I did her flanking of the calves so she could come down and stick the branding iron to them. She weighed in at 250 pounds and owned the ranch inherited from her Dad and was pretty physically capable.

            Then I look at the city fire fighter and I would surmise that the big city fellow has to be just about as tough as the wild land fighter–climbing ladders and hauling bodies out, etc. Well maybe not the city of Congress and Yarnell–seems that they too might sometime have to use physical exertion–but then I was informed by the Dolan Springs Fire Chief that the main thing they do is contain the fires so they do not spread. It is safer to let it burn rather than mess around too close to a burning building—So douse it best you can and someone than can manage a hose is best suited to the job. I would guess a little extra fat around the gut would help there seeing that the pressure on those hoses might be tough for a flyweight.

            Well do not give up keeping people like myself informed. It does help me understand the firefighting business but more than that think of the many young firefighters who can learn from the ongoing exchange of information and ideas–lives will certainly be saved.

            Now about putting a square peg in a round hole–there is a formula that most hill billy cow boys know that few mathematicians or rocket scientists know. If you don’t believe it ask one next time you talk to one. To square a circle just ram a 4×4 up a bull’s ass.

            Reply

    • For me, it’s this that Bill Gabbert wrote that bugs me the most:

      “The important facts that lead to lessons learned are known. What we don’t know are exactly who made certain decisions and their rationale.”

      How can we even begin to know the “lessons learned” when we don’t know who made certain decisions and why they made them?

      We have spent considerable time here ferreting out from the evidence that there was a “Hail Mary Plan,” including downstream in the weeds trying to figure out who was saying what about that, but others, including Bill Gabbert, don’t say anything about it. How can lessons be learned without looking critically at that?

      I also agree with what Joy wrote downstream about the importance of Gabbert’s Wildfire Today in covering what is CURRENTLY happening regarding wildfires. Which is a HUGE amount of stuff to cover. Not to mention his other site regarding Wildfire Aviation. My sense all along has been that he has chosen to spend more of his time covering a LOT of stuff than he has chosen to cover Yarnell in detail.

      Although that can vary.

      I don’t think he was prepared to respond to our detail-oriented eyes. Whether or not they are “obsessed.” Or whatever.

      What I’m seeing is kind of a Yarnell Fire “fatigue.” As in, it happened two years ago and it’s time to move on. Among both firefighters and the public.

      I don’t think that bodes well, but I think it is happening.

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 10, 2015 at 6:07 am

        >> Marti wrote…
        >>
        >> For me, it’s this that Bill Gabbert wrote that bugs me the most:
        >>
        >> “The important facts that lead to lessons learned are known.
        >> What we don’t know are exactly who made certain decisions
        >> and their rationale.”
        >>
        >> How can we even begin to know the “lessons learned” when
        >> we don’t know who made certain decisions and why they made them?

        Exactly.

        When he authored that statement… I asked Mr. Gabbert himself to just tell us what he thought the ‘lessons learned’ might even be, at this point.

        He just threw that comment/question in the trash bin.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> We have spent considerable time here ferreting out from the evidence
        >> that there was a “Hail Mary Plan,” including downstream in the weeds
        >> trying to figure out who was saying what about that, but others,
        >> including Bill Gabbert, don’t say anything about it. How can lessons
        >> be learned without looking critically at that?

        There are plenty of ‘lessons to be learned’ even from the evidence that HAS been both obvious from the get-go AND ‘ferreted out’ despite all attempts to conceal it.

        What astounds me even more than the lack of interest in knowing ALL that ( despite what many say is impossible ) can STILL be KNOWN about what happened that day if the right people are forced to tell what they know…. is the fact that no one wants to talk about even what should be the obvious ‘lessons learned’.

        See any post from Mr. Bob Powers about LCES and the 10&18 still needing to be the absolute (enforced) ‘rules of the road’.

        I asked Mr. Gabbert to even tell us what HE thought the ‘final lessons learned’ are… since he’s of the opinion nothing else needs to be discovered about what happened that day.

        Even he declined.

        Is it ALL just ‘lip service’?

        Does there even need to be any taxpayer dollars being spent to keep a “Lessons Learned” center open for business at the USFS?

        Is what Gary Olson was saying down below the real ‘bottom line’?

        Most of the people who SHOULD be interested in what happened really did just take a slight pause in their Taco session and say…

        “They fucked up. Too bad. Pass the sauce”.

        I still (certainly) hope that is NOT the case.

        It more than troubles me that I ( and other taxpayers ) might be paying the salaries of people who don’t even CARE if they get killed, or not.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> I also agree with what Joy wrote downstream about the importance
        >> of Gabbert’s Wildfire Today in covering what is CURRENTLY happening
        >> regarding wildfires. Which is a HUGE amount of stuff to cover. Not to
        >> mention his other site regarding Wildfire Aviation. My sense all along
        >> has been that he has chosen to spend more of his time covering a LOT
        >> of stuff than he has chosen to cover Yarnell in detail.

        There’s no doubt what his own self-imposed ‘limitations’ are.

        He’s trying to run a ‘Web Channel’ and he’s just a one-man operation.

        So yea… TIME is his big thing.

        In order to maintain his ‘vision’ for his one-man-show… he has to “float like a butterfly” ( but NOT sting like a bee ).

        He only has so much TIME for ANYTHING he’s doing just to keep the ‘channel’ flowing.

        It’s a lot of dog-work and only so many hours in the day.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> I don’t think he was prepared to respond to our detail-oriented eyes.
        >> Whether or not they are “obsessed.” Or whatever.

        There’s no question he was ‘not prepared’ for what was going to happen when he chose to publish an article that finally PROVES Brendan McDonough was ALWAYS withholding information from the people whose legal authority it was to fully investigate the deaths of 19 civil servants.

        Gabbert is a ‘control freak’ and feels the need to read/approve every single comment that appears over there in ‘his world’.

        That adds exponentially to the TIME commitment ( on his part ) for that ‘Channel’ he’s running… and the minute comments started to appear that were anything other than Twitter-length and with any content other than “Thank you, Bill!”… he realized he had gotten in over his head.

        I think that just proves that while it still might have been the perfect place for Brendan to continue to pursue his own agenda… it certainly wasn’t the best place in general for ‘new’ information about the incident to finally come to light.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> What I’m seeing is kind of a Yarnell Fire “fatigue.” As in, it happened
        >> two years ago and it’s time to move on. Among both firefighters
        >> and the public.
        >>
        >> I don’t think that bodes well, but I think it is happening.

        There’s no question it’s happening.

        The parades are long over.

        The whole thing is moving to that dead-zone ( no pun intended ) between “We shall never forget” and “Hey… remember Yarnell?”.

        Doesn’t matter.

        It’s an event of both epic and historic proportions and the search to know more about what happened that day will always continue as long as there are people alive who might know more about it.

        That’s how HISTORY works.

        HISTORY doesn’t like mysteries and they tend to get solved… sooner or later.

        Reply

        • OK I’m going to try to remain optimistic. Even tho I’m feeling pretty cynical.

          You wrote:

          “It’s an event of both epic and historic proportions and the search to know more about what happened that day will always continue as long as there are people alive who might know more about it.

          That’s how HISTORY works.”

          Even on the Lessons Learned Youtube site, Bryan Scholz, The Prineville Hotshots crew’s Assistant Superintendent during the South Canyon Fire, was still talking about what happened on that fire on July 16, 2015.

          “The fire enviornment is a social enviornment” [sp]

          https://youtu.be/6Uujg3eD59c

          Reply

          • PS From what I’ve seen, I believe every “Lesson Learned,” regarding wildland firefighter safety, that’s gonna be learned, is going to have to be ferreted out of every incident in spite of the Forest Service and every Agency overseeing every fire in which these incidents occur. They are going to protect “their own.”

            I guess that’s understandable.

            The USFS et al are, by the people of the United States, underfunded when it comes to preventing, in an ecologically coherent way, wildfires. And so it’s natural that they would say, in this political environment, that that “nasty evil unpredictable fire” was the cause of this or that incident.

            That’s what was said about Yarnell. That’s what’s being said about Twisp.

            That’s easier to say than “People Fucked Up on Yarnell.” That’s easier to say than “People Fucked Up on Twisp.”

            But it ain’t gonna lead to any “Lessons Learned” unless the obvious is obvious.

            Therefore, yes, I agree with Bob Powers that the violations of the 10 and 18 are clearly causes of what happened at Yarnell. So Bill Gabbert and WTKTT and Bob Powers may be correct in saying that there is no more information that we NEED to “KNOW” in order to learn the “Lessons Learned” that need to be learned from the Yarnell Fire.

            But what I keep asking is WHY were all of those 10 and 18 violated??????

            The current status of the “Lessons Learned” website/document sits at asking the question, “Why would they have thought that move to have been reasonable?”

            Holly is still thinking of it as being some kind of “Escape Route” to some kind of a “Safety Zone.”

            None of which takes into account the fact that there was a “Hail Mary Plan” being implemented to create a dozer line near Glen Ilah that involved engaging a dozer operator and a member of the Blue Ridge IHC, to the extent of securing an ATV from the Yarnell Fire Department for that Blue Ridge IHC to use, in order to implement that plan.

            And the high possibility that Eric Marsh, from his vantage point high over that fire, even the BEST vantage point high over that fire, had a part in conceiving of that “Hail Mary Plan.”

            So this is where I go from saying, yes, the violations of the 10 and 18 are a clear indicator that violations of the 10 and 18 are mostly all we need to know in order to understand the “Lessons Learned” that need to be learned are sufficient………

            To asking don’t we need to know, also, what was going on to know WHY those violations of the 10 and 18 happened?????

            And I totally believe, at this point, that the Arizona Department of Forestry doesn’t want ANYBODY to know about this “Hail Mary Plan,” and that the USFS has agreed with them. For what ever reason, I actually don’t know.

            Reply

            • The whole “Escape Route” and “Safety Zone” terminology in all the radio communications were a total bunch of BS from the getgo, and have been repeated over and over as a convenient cover-up of what was actually going on.

              So I’m asking, don’t we need to understand this in order to understand more than that merely understanding that the 10 and 18 were violated in order to understand the actual “Lessons Learned” that the Yarnell Fire is trying to telling us?

              Reply

      • Right on that Marti. There are too many who do not want the details nor admit that the Yarnell Hill Fire was a disasaster and the truth of it all is that it will go down in history as one of the worse fire fighting blunders in the history of American fire fighting. The details have shown that. However to admit to the sorry way this fire was managed would men some heads would have to roll and others demoded so they could pay more attention to safety and details that so many want to hide.

        Reply

  140. holLY Nell says somewhere on heere theirs proof of lces,,,…. allot of folks said behind close doors everyone whose been doing it along time has a bad day near misses are sometimes misses.,,,.

    bobpowers,,… theres allot of spoton females on fires,,,,… you call b.day type2 a diversity hire and rockys wife does ops type 1 team last i herd????//..,,,,

    Reply

      • dale1—-I Called Holly A DIVERSITY HIRE FROM BACK IN THE 80s.
        may be before your time.

        I also have respect for some who got no special treatment and came up from crewmen to the top by dirt grubbing hard work many are my friends and many came thru the Hot Shots.

        Holly I don’t respect did you get it that time????????

        Reply

        • There is no proof of LCES Holly is full of a lot of her own facts and all stems on MARSH being some where as Lookout and a escape route fully cut to the Ranch. The Ranch which got hit hard with fire and heat a Safety Zone and no communication to OPS or adjoining forces all absolute proof that there was no LCES.

          Sorry Rockstedy I jumped in on your question. But don’t expect answers dale1 never comes back from his off the wall statements anyway.

          Reply

          • not here the way u r bob..,,,, not retired wish i was
            holly Neell got hired when b.day and rockys (type 1 ic) wife was..,,,

            Reply

            • Who is Rocky????
              I have a Problem with Holly not with all woman in Fire. I do not Know B. Day or Rocks Wife.
              I have a problem with Holly’s Credentials and obsession of proving that Marsh did nothing wrong.

              I had a hunch you were still working I hope I have answered your questions below. Holly and Bill have got me PO so sorry I jumped on you.

              Reply

  141. FYI: Mr. Bill Gabbert is now allowing public comments again on his recent published interview with Brendan McDonough where McDonough reveals he was always withholding information from investigators and the families of the fallen…

    …but first he DELETED every single previous comment ( 10 out of 21 comments ) that he simply didn’t like.

    Gabbert allowed public comments again on his public article with the following announcement…

    —————————————————————————————-
    On September 8, 2015 at 9:37 am, Bill Gabbert said…

    The interview with Brendan McDonough is being opened again for comments after the strategic pause and a cleaning up of the thread. We hope that any additional comments, as we said before, “will be in a more productive, meaningful, and positive atmosphere”.
    —————————————————————————————-

    Mr. Gabbert will still be the sole arbitrator as what he feels is ‘meaningful’ and/or ‘productive’ and/or positive… and he has also already stated that HE ( personally ) feels all the ‘relevant facts’ are totally known… so other than comments like “Thank you, Mr. Gabbert, for doing the interview”… ( which are the only ones he did NOT delete ) it’s hard to say what kind of comments he’s going to allow ( if any ).

    Anyway… here’s that PUBLIC article that Gabbert published over at his BLOG…

    http://www.wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/

    Reply

      • He even deleted all of YOUR comments, Calvin.

        Including the one where you simply asked Holly Neill if she thought what she had previously published on that same BLOG ( along with John Maclean ) was true or not… that Marsh had taken some sawyers with him on that ‘scouting’ trip.

        Holly Neill replied that she was still investigating some cut ‘stobs’ she found along the road that was bulldozed out the the deployment site, and I pointed out to Holly that Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon has already testified that his crewmates were the ones ‘mopping up’ along the side of the dozer road the day after the tragedy…

        …but Gabbert DELETED all of that, too.

        The only thing he left were the comments saying “Thank you Mr. Gabbert” and then 4 of his own comments.

        What’s bizarre now is that he left his comment where he explained why he was shutting down the thread… but now there’s nothing left that even makes that diatribe of his make any sense.

        If he wanted to just ‘pretend last week never happened’… he should have deleted his own comment(s) as well.

        Acutally… why leave anything at all?

        If he wasn’t ready for comments that were going to appear on an article that proves Brendan McDonough has always been hiding information from both the investigators and the families of ‘his brothers’…

        …then he should have just wiped the slate clean and made it one of those “One and Done” posts of his where he doesn’t allow any comments at all.

        Reply

        • I am totally blocked from responding on any thing on Bills WFT.
          Have no Idea why sent him a E-Mail no answer.
          2 weeks ago I could respond on any thing. Followed all his rules no nasty notes from him.
          I type a note hit post and it frizzes on the note left it on for 2 hours still nothing.

          I guess you do not want to pick on holly or even disagree with her.
          Her credentials are not very high in my estimation.
          Or as we use to say she would not make a pimple on a good fire fighters Ass.
          She made her jobs under the Diversity program not in the school of Wild Land Fire.
          When I drink to Hot Shots Ill not be Buying her a Drink.,

          Reply

          • We will see what happens.

            It’s his ‘show’ over there. He’s entitled to run it the way he sees fit.

            It’s interesting to note, however, that even his ‘faithful’ are now asking more ‘questions’.

            He’s going to discover very fast that it’s not just us who know that was a piss-poor interview and basically raises even more ( new ) questions that it answers.

            There are already two more comments there that he has ‘allowed’… and they are asking him direct questions about Brendan and the interview…

            …but no response from Gabbert ( yet ).

            Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 8, 2015 at 6:55 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> I am totally blocked from responding on any thing on Bills WFT.

            Same here, I suppose.

            I tried to post the simplest comment/question possible yesterday which only said/asked the following…

            ———————————————————
            Did Brendan give any indication as to WHEN the book might come out?
            ———————————————————

            Looks like that got thrown in the trash bin as well.

            Oh well.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Have no Idea why sent him a E-Mail no answer.
            >> 2 weeks ago I could respond on any thing.
            >> Followed all his rules no nasty notes from him.

            It’s his ‘show’. He’ll run it as he sees fit.

            I’m just sorry that’s the place Brendan chose to do an interview.
            Gabbert wasn’t up to the task.

            Reply

        • Right–My comment on Donut was deleted as well. Seems Bill wants to skip any meaningful discussion regarding Donut or the errors made by the crew. Why it was my first and last comment on that web site. All you get there is then restricted to Bill Gabbert opinion. Thanks John D. for allowing us to get informed opinions that are not necessarily your own–without free flow of thought how is anything understood. I am reminded of the Fruer here–you don’t heil the chief, you are cancelled.

          Reply

          • we thank you for your input but we regret to inform you …and on this issue you are all wrong…local library guy said he wanted to make his comment here under my name to start an online wildfire and I said I would post it under Sonny’s

            Reply

    • If I remember correctly, didn’t you and Holly Neil both have comments and some back and forth up, with both of your comments being deleted?

      I respect that he’s trying to be evenhanded in the way he pruned the thread. But, it seems like he wants more a solemn memorial approach rather than a discussion of the facts and then the underlying substantive issues.

      Reply

      • Reply to SR post on September 8, 2015 at 3:57 pm

        >> SR said…
        >>
        >> If I remember correctly, didn’t you and Holly Neil both
        >> have comments and some back and forth up,
        >> with both of your comments being deleted?

        Yes. I’m assuming it was the exchange between Holly and I that pissed him off… but he ended up deleting all of Calvin’s comments as well.

        Basically, anything that was even SUGGESTING that release of information ( that proves someone had always been withholding information from investigators ) had now changed a 2 year old evidence record… and those ‘changes’ to the evidence record deserved to be discussed.

        In other words “You can just THANK ME for doing the article like others have done… but NO QUESTIONS, PLEASE”.

        >> SR also said…
        >>
        >> I respect that he’s trying to be evenhanded in the way he pruned
        >> the thread. But, it seems like he wants more a solemn memorial
        >> approach rather than a discussion of the facts and then the
        >> underlying substantive issues.

        More than just ‘seems’. That IS all he wants.

        Show his regular ‘target audience’ he can get a ‘scoop’ and put feathers in his bonnet… and then show people how he can totally control the commenting as well.

        Pretty bold for someone who chose to publish an article that, itself, has heretofore unheard FACTS in it about what happened that day.

        “I can publish new evidence you’re but you’re not allowed to talk about it”.

        I’m sure Brendan is pleased with the choice he made for a ‘softball interview’… but Gabbert really wasn’t ( and isn’t ) up to this task.

        Reply

        • Followup…

          FWIW… I tried posting another comment this afternoon but look like it, too, will never see the light of day over in ‘Gabbert’ land.

          There has only been ONE comment ‘allowed’ in the 11-12 hours since he re-opened his article to comment early this morning… and sure enough… it’s basically just another “Thank you, Bill!” comment.

          Looks like this…

          —————————————————————–
          On September 8, 2015 at 5:16 pm, kelly said…

          THANKS Bill, and best of luck this time. ( Emoticon that WINKS ).

          What did Brendan think of the published interview?
          Have you talked with him since you ran it?
          —————————————————————–

          The comment that I posted early this afternoon ( which I guess is even still too much for Gabbert ) went like this ( and it even started with the desirable ‘Thank You’ )…

          —————————————————————–
          Reply to Bill Gabbert post on September 8, 2015 at 9:37 am

          >> Bill Gabbert said…
          >>
          >> The interview with Brendan McDonough is being opened
          >> again for comments after the strategic pause and a cleaning
          >> up of the thread.

          Thank you.

          An article such as the one you just published deserves a chance for public comment.

          >> Bill Gabbert also said…
          >>
          >> We hope that any additional comments, as we said
          >> before, “will be in a more productive, meaningful, and
          >> positive atmosphere”.

          Mr. Gabbert… with all due respect… it was YOU that decided to publish an article that seems to contain proof positive that a key witness in the deaths of 19 civil servants has always been withholding important information from people whose job it was to fully investigate this tragic incident and from the families of the fallen.

          That information changes a lot of things about a 2 year old public evidence record.

          That deserves to be discussed.

          But before I ( or anyone else whose previous comments have already been deleted ) make any more comments… can you give a clearer picture of what kind of comments you ARE going to allow?

          Example: You said up above…

          “The important facts that lead to lessons learned are known.”

          If that is the case… then what are ( in your opinion ) the ‘final lessons learned’?

          If there are to be no more facts discovered.. then the ‘final lessons learned’ regarding this tragic incident also deserve their chance to be discussed.

          Are you going to even allow THAT kind of discussion to now take place?
          —————————————————————–

          Reply

          • I understand your frustration. There are sort of two levels of facts here, though. One, that being entrapped where they were is a bad thing.

            Two, how did this happen? Level one Gabbert has fleshed out well in the past. Level two, including the follow-up of how did the first official investigation become such a whitewash, involves lots of hard discussion. Plus, strategically, there’s in my opinion growing use of burnovers to create a sense of crisis that then supports more government funding. There is a bit of a wildland fire industrial complex, and unless congressmen and governors start demanding safety accountability, saying that something happened due to extraordinary fire behavior makes a much better case for funding that saying that it happened because of a long chain of poor decisions starting well before the day of the fire. The same is true for attempts to use over the top rhetoric about damage from fire.

            Reply

            • I definitely think you are on to something here. I’m sitting here weaving this into some other thoughts that I’m thinking of putting together into a larger comment in the next couple of days.

              I agree with the intent to make the country and home owners take more responsibility for dealing with wildfires, including the potential deaths, etc, of those people they are expecting to fight them. I think that should happen.

              But I also believe that that does not absolve those who are, essentially, “throwing” “resources” at those fires (including at Yarnell and Twisp) from any kind of accountability for what they are doing.

              Reply

    • I skimmed recent messages. Why is it just because John Dougherty gave full freedom to express that all online sites must do the same or they get judged…number one I am very happy Brendan spoke to someone and he will speak more as time goes by because he is healing in his own way and own time. I do not see the etiquette in bringing I M discussion and disecting to a page that IS named wildfire TODAY not yesterday. In my humble opinion calling I M an obsession is a perception and that is it but not the reality of I M. Some in cyber world feel John Dougherty engages in this blog and after much time and looking into I think he has other livelihood stuff going but skims the page but is not at all avid in its posting comments. I think some took being banned off his page personal…kinda like I took at the time the moment with HN personal but lets be blessed and grateful we all have a page to openly express ourselves. I find Bill Gabbert to be an outstanding individual and he continues to give the world the educational insights. He is active in speaking with active firefighters and I can say many LOVE Gabbert’s page that I have met in the firefighter community and many think of John Dougherty’s page as the Alex Jones of firefighter_community..yet both men deserve to have only good stuff written about them or said…I know Holly”s heart and that lady is amazing and as 2015 has unfolded I can say I ran into some who would not stand for any talk on who not to drink with or buy drinks for…I do not care if Gabbert posted anything I write because he has his viewers and he knows what content needs to be there…I disagreed with OBSESSION part on comment but other than that…I thank both men John Dougherty and Bill Gabbert…also keep in mind when all this fire happened John interviewed people in the wildfire community and Gabbert was one so John would not interview him if he did not respect the man.
      A lot of education you can gain from both places.
      In the end.the words on a page are irrelevant compared to 473 firefighters dying in five years not including civilians so lets keep the focus to 10&18 lces and safe equipment and get the higher ups to make some.changes because I am.talking to a firefighter who was on yhf who is spending his fire season in WA…so lets just note the 2 fires have similarities and I don’t want any more deaths…on a note there is less deaths since yhf per year so lets look at that too versus locking in on the negatives …facts are…hard to type on cell so sorry if any typos…was gonna wait until at pc…on my way to sportsman warehouse and guitar store..but its important for me to stick up for Bill and John…on way down yarnell hill today..a lot of fallen rocks.

      Made me think of the many fallen heroes…how many just pass by the boulders or the fallen men and women…and just be ok with it…not me. Later I will hike area to see WHY so many fallen boulders on the highway…more of us should be aware versus just move on..nothing here…have a great day.

      I have a drink…freshly juiced peach…and I raise it up…salute to John and Bill and every person who keeps seeking …and sharing

      Reply

      • Finally made it to a computer, I also want to point out to WWTKTT—Bill Gabbert is not an investigative media journalist nor is he trying to publicly gather new information for a wild fire that happen over two years ago—his site is called wildfire TODAY. Anytime he had a different view then my own he simply appreciated it and still values my continued effort to get details emerged about not just YHF but other fires too…I have to state a lot of firefighters do go to his site and a lot go here but do not admit it or if they do they ask to not mention their names that they do…Bob, do you feel some of your heat cores back to John M. versus Bill…because a lot of us have wrote comments not just on this site but Bill’s and it never makes it…that does not necessarily mean he saw it and purposely blocked it. When I began my hiking/zazzle page it has an area people could comment and the page owner could delete any they did not like…I just set mine to NO COMMENTS ALLOWED because I would have ones saying “nice to meet you at such and such..meet you blah blah blah” and I really did not want famed folks dropping notes public like that but they said at the time I did not do emails so it was their place to leave me a message but I did not care for it…again it was my page and that’s the privilege I have and had and continue to control my hiking page to no comments. I think I M is plentiful as far as a platform so if on another site just say a brief comment but send them here…because this site has HOW MANY chapters filled with information. Bill Gabbert’s site is a big part of my online life as much as here. I like to hear and read people in the profession different perceptions on things. Bill Gabbert has served as an expert witness in wild land fire and probably WHY John Dougherty interviewed him July 2013. Bill’s site is for sure unique and offers writings about wildfires learning about fire suppression tools, clothing, equipment, vegetation management equipment, outdoor clothing, boots, and camping equipment, structure protection systems and equipment…so much information…it is very good for homeowners affected by a fire to read and learn. We all know the interview just done with Donut was Donut’s way of sharing but people on the fire and the people of his own community and people who know him share it different how Donut shared to them so to me that just means he is not ready…more time goes by the less chance of it being relayed as it happened…I like you Bob…that is for sure and most would think I would piggy back you on Holly but I know her and even though we stopped communicating I will always find her to be a terrific women and I know she has a lot of INSIDE on the YHF so all I wish from reading what she wrote was on my hike with you Holly, we spoke about without evidence words do not mean much so how is my words which as you are similar to Donut’s recent interview but in my words which was mountain top view not in the thicket near the old grader but why is it Donut SAYS it and it fits into your views and he get complimented for confirming your view but I pretty much get NO EVIDENCE…verbal doesn’t count…NEVER HAPPENED kind of analysis…with OSHA I searched for clues or evidence so it is hard to search any other time because the area is STILL restricted so not much I can do to keep looking especially when my court case involved that topic…in recent times I met a person who was adopted looking for both parents unknown for a long time…the investigative research in that—years later—is that obsessive? I feel there is just missing elements just like the fire and no matter how long it takes I will continue to emerge new information…

        Reply

  142. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE
    **
    ** VIDEO TAKEN AT THE SCENE OF THE ACCIDENT

    This is a VIDEO shot by KREM2 reporter Ryan Simms reporting on August 29, 2015 ( Just 10 days after the accident ) from the exact spot on Woods Canyon Road where the Engine went off the road.

    KREM2 – TV Station
    Article Title: Memorial Takes Shape on Charred Land
    Getting our first look at a memorial that honors the 3 firefighters killed last week.
    Published: 8:50 a.m. PDT August 29, 2015
    By Ryan Simms, KREM2.
    http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/wildfire/2015/08/28/twisp-fire-nearly-out–memorial–fallen-approaches/71344618/

    At +43 seconds there is a ‘long shot’ of the curve where the Engine actually left the road. with some firefighters standing in the road looking down at the new makeshift ‘memorial’ at the site where the Engine came to rest. You can see the tops of the three American flags that are marking the spot ‘peeking’ up above the edge of the road in this ‘wide shot’.

    At +54 seconds there is a shot of 4 Firefighters now standing on the edge of Woods Canyon Road looking down at the spot where the Engine came to rest. Look at down by their feet where they are standing on Woods Canyon Road and, themselves, looking down at the 3 flags where the Engine came to rest. Right there by their feet you can see the ‘tracks’ at the exact point where the engine ‘left’ Woods Canyon Road and then lead down to the memorial. The ‘house’ visible through the charred trees to the left of these firefighters is, in fact, the house that has the address “37 Woods Canyon Road”, which was the address given over the scanner radio when the fire was first reported over the scanner at 12:27 PDT that day ( August 19, 2015 ).

    A few seconds later… the camera pans ‘down’ towards where these Firefighters were looking to show the memorial and you can see clearly that the Engine never actually went that far off the road after missing that ‘curve’ there which is now clearly seen in this video.

    At +1:30 into the video… reporter Ryan Simms is showing exactly how close the scene of the accident really was to the house on Woods Canyon Road that has the address “37 Woods Canyon Road”.

    It ( the fatal accident ) was just a few hundred feet away from it.

    At +1:57 into the video… reporter Ryan Simms is now interviewing one of the FFs who was there at the scene of the accident.

    The HOUSE that is now in the upper right corner of the video is very likely the place where these other firefighters supposedly were ‘trapped’ in the driveway of that house and/or ( according to other reports ) actually tried to deploy in a garage.

    That HOUSE actually corresponds almost exactly to the location where we see the VLAT making an emergency retardant drop in the video shot by Ben Wilmot, Ronald Race’s nephew.

    And there is this… from the ‘text’ of the article that accompanies the video.

    Some of the FFs on the scene seemed to say it was somehow ‘inspiring to see that they died so very close to a HOUSE.

    ————————————————————————————————-
    The memorial for the fallen crew is scheduled for 1:30 p.m. at the Town Toyota Center in Wenatchee. But fellow crew members decided to honor the firefighters at the site of their death too, with flowers and American flags.

    “The tragedy will always live with us and it’ll always be a big part of this fire,” said Alan Barbian of the U.S. Forest Service.

    The spot the firefighters died is just feet away from a house that is standing, virtually unharmed.

    Those visiting the memorial said it is a reminder of how much their sacrifice was worth, and an inspiration.
    ————————————————————————————————-

    Reply

    • Just to repeat…

      The article says the FFs seen in the video were “fellow crew members” of the men who died.

      And then there are these two lines at the end of the article…

      —————————————————————————
      The spot the firefighters died is just feet away from a house that is standing, virtually unharmed. Those visiting the memorial said it is a reminder of how much their sacrifice was worth, and an inspiration.
      —————————————————————————-

      So, somehow, we are being asked to believe that people on that very same crew as the men who died think that the fact a pile of lumber and shingles and drywall didn’t get burned was WORTH the sacrifice of 3 lives and 60 percent burns for another… and that this is an ‘inspiring’ thing.

      Yikes.

      SIDENOTE: There is no evidence whatsoever ( yet ) that the men who were killed and injured did ANYTHING to help protect any particular house or piece of property… or that that was even part of their intent for going up there. We still don’t know what they even THOUGHT they were going to accomplish by taking those big engines up that narrow dirt road, and putting themselves ABOVE the fire.

      Reply

      • Just some thoughts that may mean nothing—
        Current brush fire Engines BLM and FS can move in gear while the Pump is engaged
        The accident scene dose not look like a bad Crash.
        Although not knowing how much time they had or if the pump was engaged just a thought that they were in a position to use reel hoses to hit the fire or drown the truck and them self’s with water. Or they could have stopped in the middle of a Fire Storm, Which is likely
        Also their packs with gear and shelter were probably not with them in the Cab but in a side compartment. One got out and tried to run from the fire and was severely burned but some how survived.. A lot of things going on in just the accident even without driving off the road they were in a really bad spot.

        Reply

        • There’s no question that the most important thing to determine ( as with Yarnell ) is WHY they were in the place where they were… when they were.

          As for the ‘accident itself’… I keep looking at that video myself and it really doesn’t even look like that drastic of a ‘curve’, at that point where the tracks seem to be leaving the road.

          There is another clip in the video where a US Forestry Truck is seen coming UP the road and towards the camera… and it almost looks like there really is no way that two ‘truck type’ vehicles could have been able to pass each other on that part of the road without an absolute ‘tight squeeze’.

          As long as we are ‘pondering’ what might have happened… is it possible some OTHER vehicle came charging UP the road at that point ( at least as wide as the USFS vehicle in the video ) and, for the Engine that was now coming DOWN, it was either try to grab the absolute shoulder of the dirt road or have a collision?

          Maybe they tried to ‘grab shoulder’… but went over it instead?

          Reply

  143. **
    ** TWISP UPDATE – THE 911 CALLS
    **
    ** “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”
    **
    ** “THERE’S NO SAFE ZONES UP HERE”

    The ‘Firefighter Nation’ eZine has reprinted an article from the Associated Press that contains transcripts of some ( all? ) of the 911 calls that were going down in Twisp, WA, regarding the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ fire that would later come to be called “The Twisp Fire”.

    More confirmation that the first FFs on the scene knew how very dangerous it would be to try and send any Engines or Crews up Woods Canyon Road.

    FIREFIGHTER NATION
    Article Title: 911 Calls for Twisp Wildfire Tragedy Released
    Dispatch recordings from Washington wildfire show initial confusion in hectic first minutes
    Published Monday, August 31, 2015
    Original authors: REBECCA BOONE and MARTHA BELLISLE of the Associated Press

    http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/911-calls-twisp-wildfire-tragedy-released

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————————-
    Homeowners frantically asked for help as a swiftly moving wildfire headed toward their houses, 911 audio calls show, and dispatchers tried to clear up confusion over injured firefighters from a blaze in Washington state that ultimately killed three firefighters.

    The Aug. 19 fire near Twisp, Washington, also injured four firefighters — one critically.

    The dispatch recordings were released to The Associated Press on Friday by the Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office in response to a records request.

    “Send somebody fast please,” one of the first callers to report the fire told dispatchers. “I just looked out my window, and the fire is coming up the hill right towards my house.”

    A short time later, one of the first-responders warned dispatchers of the risk the fire was posing to “resources,” an industry term for firefighters and equipment.

    “We’ve got houses up here, but we can’t get resources up here and get them out safely,” the firefighter from a local fire district said after describing his location in the rural, forested neighborhood. “And there’s nothing, there’s no safe zones up here.”

    Within a few hours of the first 911 call, an emergency responder asked dispatchers to send an ambulance for a burn victim. Around the same time, a woman with the Washington Department of Natural Resources called to report that firefighters were trapped and needed an air ambulance.

    Dispatchers sent a ground ambulance and an aircraft ambulance, and then focused on trying to figure out whether the separate reports were referring to injuries occurring at the same site or two separate incidents. The location provided for each was nearby but not identical. Meanwhile, the fire crews at the scene weren’t responding to the dispatcher’s calls for clarification.

    The confusion was eventually resolved when medics arrived at the scene. Not long after, a law enforcement officer called the dispatch center with tragic news.

    “Listen, have you been in contact about any dead firefighters yet? Got any information on that?” he asked the dispatcher. “Listen up, here’s what I need then. We got three dead Forest Service firefighters, so you need to notify the coroner. Try not to do it over the air, do it over the phone.”
    —————————————————————————————-

    The line that says…

    “Send somebody fast please,” one of the first callers to report the fire told dispatchers. “I just looked out my window, and the fire is coming up the hill right towards my house.”

    …is most likely referring to someone who lived at “37 Woods Canyon Road”, since that is the address that was associated with the first reports of the fire going out over the scanner, as captured in the Facebook thread. At 12:27 PM, the fire most likely WOULD have been visible out the windows of that house sitting up there at ’37 Woods Canyon Road’.

    The “firefighter from a local fire district” being referred to in the article might very well be Okanogan County Fire District 6 ( FD#6 ) Chief Don Waller, who is known to have been the one who raced up Woods Canyon Road and was knocking on doors telling people who lived on that road to evacuate immediately and telling them “If you don’t leave now… you’re going to die”.

    We also see a ‘confirmation’, of sorts, for why the Facebook thread wasn’t getting any updates regarding the entrapment ( over the scanner ) once it became known.

    Whoever the caller to 911 was above who was first telling them there were deaths was then specifically even asking those operators to stay off the ‘radio’ and contact the coroner by telephone.

    So the ‘medical’ related ‘updates’ were then probably all happening on either private radio channels or via cellphones, so that’s why the Facebook thread wasn’t hearing that activity following the entrapment.

    Reply

  144. catch22 want faster initial attack so you got it on twisfp fire was initial attack.,,,,… at wat cost???///?? cant have it bothh ways

    Reply

    • dale1 Not sure what you are saying??????
      Fast IA following all the Rules and Safety has been Done for Years.
      Yarnell hill roughly 19 hours till boots on the Ground on a known and located Fire???
      Most of the Responders were on the Twisp fire and in Suppression effort.
      Some extended them selves to far for what ever reason possibly going into narrow dead end roads to homes with no possible difensiable space.
      Good Fire IA also starts before the Fire identifying areas where Equipment cant go or cant turn around. Undefinable Structures part of the Urban Interface Planning, Was even done back in my time.

      IA is critical and also Hazardous in the Current time of the year, Fuel Loading, Drought and location of Fire all are part of the Safe IA assessment. Critical need to follow the 10 Standard Orders. IA is where many Fire Fighters are Injured and Killed because of a failure to evaluate the situation and what the Fire is doing where they are in relation to many factors.

      The number one rule Find an Anchor point secure and move from there. Know where you are what the terrain is where the roads go and there accessibility to Engines and equipment.
      Current and predicted Weather and Fire behavior.

      Did the crews that went into the Wood Canyon Road know where the road went or if the road was accessible to their Equipment with sufficient turn around? did they know they would be above the fire and in a frontal attack? did they ask any questions before the committed?

      Was some of the Equipment Pre stationed to respond to new fire starts. This was a FS Engine way out side its Forest Area. Possibly unfamiliar with the Roads and Topography. the Area they were in all critical to IA.

      Reply

  145. rob,,…. the twispp guys on the engine were trained engines r manned 7 days a week nowdays so there’s plenty of situations where other wf’s can take the engine if they are trained,,,… i herd they got off the road on accidnt,,,…rip

    Reply

    • Dale1—-I herd a little different as to full Quails of the Asst. Operator. The issue to me is not the accident but what they were doing there in the first place. It looks like they were attempting a Frontal attack on a fast moving fire still do not know if they backed off or drove off one wheel of the shoulder shifts the 500 Gallons and pulls the truck over

      A narrow road with an Engine full of water can be tricky I am sure you know that

      We had Foreman and TTO’s back in my day and a occasional Crewman with experience.
      You are not telling me something I do not know.

      Just repeating what I herd from a reliable source they went on to a road they were told not to go on if you read the Radio traffic info below it says they were warned not to go up that road.

      We will both wait for the Investigation and see

      Reply

      • We also manned 7 days a week when I was a Engine Foreman and when I had a new TTO I manned 57 days straight one year and we were responding Dailey to fires on the Sequoia. When I felt comfortable with the TTO I started taking days off.

        This was a County/State Fire and I also wonder if The FS Eng. Operator knew the Roads in that area?

        Reply

  146. John Phipps—–As I thought he is not a Wild land Fire person but one of those from the Management
    Side 2 Deputy Regional Foresters land management types. Now the head of a research center.

    Fire deaths should be Run By and investigated by Highly Qualified Wild Land FF. And Law enforcement.

    This is another sign of high end managers manipulating the investigation to what management wants.
    By Management— The Regional Forester and Washington Directors,

    Expect what we saw in the Yarnell Hill Investigation. We use to have really good Regional Foresters in R5 California that worked hard on Fire Fighter Safety and Called a Spade a Spade.
    Finding reasons for Fatalities and putting out Directives and Safety info on the Cause of the Accident. The Times have changed and I fear for the worst.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 6, 2015 at 9:34 am

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> The Times have changed and I fear for the worst.

      Let’s say, for argument’s sake, that there is actually evidence of brake failure and/or evidence of a piss-poor vehicle maintenance schedule on the part of that Okanogan National Forest Management Team.

      Do you think Phipps and his minions will go so far as to ‘cover that up’… and NOT call for an industry-wide ( immediate ) review of all Forestry Service vehicle maintenance schedules and practices?

      And if anyone thought I was kidding about these Japanese Hentai-style faceless people adorning the official USFS document about this shiny new ‘Coordinated Response Protocol’… just take a look at the following online page where that official blurb ( only 4 pages ) from USFS about the CRP is linked and the weird ORG CHART is displayed…

      http://www.wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/20/investigation-into-the-three-fatalities-in-washington-begins/

      It’s also worth taking a moment to read the scathing comments that accompany that article.

      Phipps is by no means the actual ‘author’ of this CRP thing.

      Even Phipps said at the initial press conference held by this Twisp CRP that he was “still unfamiliar with the nature of the products this group is required to produce”.

      In other words… even had had to get “up to speed” on what the hell he was even supposed to be doing as they set about spending tons of taxpayer dollars.

      The actual AUTHOR of this thing is this Ivan Pupulidy guy.

      Ivan Pupulidy was the Acting Program Manager for Human Factors Risk Management Research Development and Application for the USFS’ Rocky Mountain Research Station.

      How’s that for a title? Say that ten times fast.

      And guess where Phipps is from/stationed?

      Tick… tock… tick… tock… ok… time’s up…

      The same “Rocky Mountain Research Station” where Pupulidy had his cubicle.

      And Phipps is not only FROM the RMRS… in February of this year he became the frickin’ DIRECTOR of it.

      I say “Pupulidy HAD his cubicle” because isn’t actually there anymore.

      Last September ( 2014 ) he ‘went upstairs’ and became the actual Director of the USFS’ new Office of Learning.

      When interviewed about this new CRP process he authored… Pupulidy was asked if the causes, conclusions, and observations obtained during an accident investigation would be included in the reports that the taxpayers will be paying for.

      His response was… “They will not include traditional nonsense”.

      E.g. “traditional nonsense” like… oh… say… FACTS?

      I’m with you. I remain hopeful… but I “fear for the worst”.( again ).

      Reply

      • WTKTT
        First—An Engine crew is always maintaining their equipment. They carry a Mileage book and a maintenance log, of weekly checks. Brake failure maybe the reason for the accident will be checked including any Equipment failures.

        I would be willing to bet the truck got a wheel off the down hill berm the water shifted and they rolled. The reason for that could be severial things narrow road,
        backing up, smoke and fire hampering vision or even Panic by the Driver.
        If the Tank of water was not quite full even with Baffles to much lean will switch weight and cause the truck to lean and if not corrected Roll.

        They have a witness that was in the truck and recuperating which will help in the investigation.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 7, 2015 at 9:28 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> WTKTT
          >> First—An Engine crew is always maintaining their equipment.

          I most certainly would hope so.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> They carry a Mileage book and a maintenance log, of
          >> weekly checks. Brake failure maybe the reason for the
          >> accident will be checked including any Equipment failures.

          Again… I most certainly would hope so.
          I hope we eventually hear those findings one way or the other.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> I would be willing to bet the truck got a wheel off the down
          >> hill berm the water shifted and they rolled. The reason for
          >> that could be severial things narrow road, backing up,
          >> smoke and fire hampering vision or even Panic by the Driver.
          >> If the Tank of water was not quite full even with Baffles to much
          >> lean will switch weight and cause the truck to lean and if
          >> not corrected Roll.

          By all published accounts ( so far )… the engine did NOT ‘roll’.
          It ‘missed a cuve’ while coming DOWN ‘Woods Canyon Road’
          and drive straight down an embankment…but remained perfectly
          upright at all times…. even when coming to rest about 40 feet
          off the road.

          Someone has allowed Firefighters and Family members to already install a ‘memorial’ ( 3 Flags ) at the exact spot where the engine came to rest.

          It has been photographed and you can even see the organge spray-paint marks on the ground that were put there by investigators indicating the ‘tire tracks’ from Woods Canyon Road down to where the 3 Flags are now.

          Go to THIS site ( which is a KXLY Spokane News site )…

          http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/memorial-near-twisp-honors-fallen-firefighters/34975704

          There are 13 still photos there.
          Look at the following (numbered) photos…

          Photo 3 – Taken looking straight down the ‘organe’ spray-painted tire track and looking straight down the embankment to where the Engine came to rest down in the ( burned ) trees. The 3 Flags at the end of the orange spray-paint marks are exactly where the Engine came to rest ( still upright ).

          Photo 4 – A Close-up of the 3 Flags. You can almost even still see ‘scud marks’ there in front of the flags where the front of the Engine may have ‘grounded out’ as it came to rest.

          Photo 6 – Probably the BEST photo of the orange spray-painted tire tracks leading down to where the Flags are now. In this photo… you can clearly see that the investigators marked BOTH tire tracks leading down the embankment. The photo was taken by someone actually standing up on Woods Canyon Road so you can also see that the Engine didn’t even go that far down the embankment before coming to rest ( about 40 feet off the road ). Also note, in this photo, that it appears the 3 Memorial Flags were stuck in the ground right about where the right side passenger door of the Engine probably was, and not in the CENTER of where the Engine came to rest down there.

          Photo 7 – Another closeup of the Flags and the ‘scud marks’ down there where the Engine came to rest. These ‘scud marks’ might actually have been just the ‘scrape marks’ produced when they finally got around to dragging the Engine back up the embankment. Obviously the tires melted since one of the deputies first on scene has already reported that the plastic door handles had melted and they had to pry the doors open.

          Photo 10 on that page is not of the accident site itself… it’s a photo of a ‘sandwich board’ sign that USFS investigators installed down at the point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp River Road. The sign is asking anyone who has any information about how this Woods Canyon Road fire might have STARTED to please contact USFS investigators.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> They have a witness that was in the truck and recuperating
          >> which will help in the investigation.

          Most certainly… unless he turns into another Brendan McDonough with his own ‘self-appointed prime directive’ of ‘defending my brothers’ and he ends up withholding important information just like McDonough did ( and is probably STILL doing ).

          Reply

          • Followup… TYPO up above.

            I typed ‘cuve’ when I meant to type ‘curve’.

            Paragraph above should have read like this…

            —————————————————–
            By all published accounts ( so far )… the engine did NOT ‘roll’.
            It ‘missed a CURVE’ while coming DOWN ‘Woods Canyon Road’
            and drive straight down an embankment…but remained perfectly
            upright at all times…. even when coming to rest about 40 feet
            off the road.
            —————————————————–

            By the way… a lot of ‘accounts’ of the accident keep saying they were heading UP Woods Canyon Road when the Engine ‘left the road’.

            The photographs of the accident site released so far don’t support that.

            They were coming DOWN Woods Canyon Road when the Engine ‘left the road’.

            The actual exact point for where the published photos show the Engine leaving the road would be here…

            48.383275, -120.243312

            As usual… if you just ‘cut and paste’ that decimal lat/long line above ( including the comma ) into the search bar of ‘Google Maps’ you will see a map appear with a ‘red balloon’ marking that exact spot on Woods Canyon Road where the Engine ‘left’ the road and went down the embankment.

            It’s pretty easy to assume what happened there, actually.

            That ‘bend’ in the road right that is not only on a ‘downslope’ where you would be picking up speed… the ‘bend’ actually constitutes a full 90 degree change in direction.

            Easily ‘missed’ if you aren’t familiar with the road and you now have SMOKE obscuring your vision.

            That little ‘draw’ down there below the ‘curve’ was probably already engulfed in flames as they were trying to escape. The intense smoke probably COMPLETELY obscured their vision as they reached that ‘curve’… and they went right down into where the fire was actively burning in that ‘draw/gulley’ and came to rest right in the middle of the flames.

            If they had the windows already rolled down before even leaving the road… then they probably had no chance. Probably died of smoke inhalation before they could even realize what had happened.

            SIDENOTE: Someone please tell me that these Engines still have some MANUAL way to roll the windows up in an emergency. If an Engine loses power ( for any reason )… then please tell me there is still ALWAYS a way to roll up the damn windows?

            Also don’t forget… Mr. Ronald Race has already reported publicly that when that fire decided to change direction, it TOOK OFF up that ridge ( in his words ) “as fast as someone on a dirtbike could ride that ridge”.

            Here are just a few ‘wind related’ posts from that Facebook thread along with the TIMESTAMPS…

            ——————————————————————–
            |02:11|030| I just drove up there. The fire is just WEST of Elbow Coulee road. Road is closed at the intersection there. Slight wind blowing from the east, so moving fire up the hill and westward. There are two helicopters on it. As of right now, Winthrop and Twisp are FINE!!

            |02:26|028| The fire is just WEST of Elbow Coulee road. Road is closed at the intersection there. Slight wind blowing from the east, so moving fire up the hill and westward. There are two helicopters on it. As of right now, Winthrop and Twisp are FINE!! and “Just talked to OK Em Services, evac is for Woods Canyon and immediately around the intersection of Twisp River Rd and Woods Canyon. No additional mandatory evac called at this time but everyone needs to BE READY TO GO that is in proximity. Elbow Coolie, Poorman etc.”

            |02:41|028| and the wind is picking up again…. cmon AIR SUPPORT!

            |02:50|002| WIND CHANGED, abandoning notifacations west, starting evac notifacations east on the area
            |02:50|006| SHIT!!!!

            |02:56|002| ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
            ———————————————————————-

            So… according to these ‘radio scanner’ and personal reports…

            At 2:11 PM the wind was still blowing the fire to the WEST.
            At 2:50 PM we see the first scanner report that WIND CHANGED
            At 2:56 PM ( just THREE MINUTES LATER! ) we hear the first
            reports about an ‘entrapment’ coming over the radio.

            That supports Mr. Ronald Race’s comments that when the fire decided to take off… it moved “like someone on a dirtbike going uphill”.

            Reply

            • I’m sorry. Total brain fart up above.

              It was NOT just THREE minutes between the time when the WIND SHIFT was first being reported on the scanner and the first radio traffic about an ENTRAPMENT… it was SIX MINUTES.

              Paragraph above should have read like this…

              ————————————————
              At 2:11 PM the wind was still blowing the fire to the WEST.
              At 2:50 PM we see the first scanner report that WIND CHANGED
              At 2:56 PM ( just SIX MINUTES LATER! ) we hear the first
              reports about an ‘entrapment’ coming over the radio.
              ————————————————

              Reply

          • Followup…

            Here again is that page that has public photos of the actual ‘Woods Canyon Road’ accident site including the ‘orange paint’ left by investigators that was marking the tracks the Engine’s tires made as it left the road and went down the embankment…

            KXLY
            Memorial near Twisp honors fallen firefighters
            Published On: Aug 28 2015 11:09:49 AM PDT

            http://www.kxly.com/news/spokane-news/memorial-near-twisp-honors-fallen-firefighters/34975704

            Direct links to the photos taken of the accident site will appear below as “Replies”…

            Reply

            • Photo 3 – Taken looking straight down the ‘orange’ spray-painted tire track and looking straight down the embankment to where the Engine came to rest down in the ( burned ) trees. The 3 Flags at the end of the orange spray-paint marks are exactly where the Engine came to rest ( still upright ).

              Direct link to this photo…

              http://www.kxly.com/image/view/-/34975192/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/ob819y/-/orange-paint-leads-to-where-flags-stand–allie–jpg.jpg

              Reply

            • Photo 6 – Probably the BEST photo of the orange spray-painted tire tracks leading down to where the Flags are now. In this photo… you can clearly see that the investigators marked BOTH tire tracks leading down the embankment.

              The photo was taken by someone actually standing up on Woods Canyon Road so you can also see that the Engine didn’t even go that far down the embankment before coming to rest ( about 40 feet off the road ).

              Also note, in this photo, that it appears the 3 Memorial Flags were stuck in the ground right about where the right side passenger door of the Engine probably was, and not in the CENTER of where the Engine came to rest down there.

              Direct link to this photo…

              http://www.kxly.com/image/view/-/34974126/highRes/2/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/12du39a/-/memorial-pic-2.jpg

              Reply

            • Photo 7 – Another closeup of the Flags and the ‘scud marks’ down there where the Engine came to rest. These ‘scud marks’ might actually have been just the ‘scrape marks’ produced when they finally got around to dragging the Engine back up the embankment. Obviously the tires melted since one of the deputies first on scene has already reported that the plastic door handles had melted and they had to pry the doors open.

              Direct link to this photo…

              http://www.kxly.com/image/view/-/34975194/medRes/1/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/oqavks/-/three-flags–allie–jpg.jpg

              Reply

            • Photo 10 – This one is NOT of the accident site itself… it’s a photo of a ‘sandwich board’ sign that USFS investigators installed down at the point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp River Road. The sign is asking anyone who has any information about how this Woods Canyon Road fire might have STARTED to please contact USFS investigators.

              The Facebook thread already proves that within 25 minutes of the fire first being reported ( at 12:27 PM ), the first FFs on the scene knew it was ‘suspicious’ and had already called for a ‘fire investigator’ ( at 12:52 PM ) to get there ASAP and start determining the real cause of the fire.

              From the Facebook radio scanner thread…
              ———————————————————–
              |12:27|002| 37 woods canyon road, Twisp. grass fire heading towards a residence, twisp winthrop, plus toning out mazama Carlton fire dept. and saying contact DNR And Forest Service too…..

              |12:41|003|DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD
              |12:42|002|ROTOR En route

              |12:52|002|investigator is a hr and 15 min ETA to get there to fire
              ———————————————————–

              Direct link to this photo…

              http://www.kxly.com/image/view/-/34974130/highRes/2/-/maxh/360/maxw/640/-/15stt58/-/memorial-pic-4.jpg

              Reply

  147. **
    ** TWISP INCIDENT – UPDATE
    **
    ** ALL INJURIES AND FATALITIES TOOK PLACE ON PRIVATELY OWNED LAND.

    As long as we are talking about Twisp… what has been described since August 19 as one of the ‘mysteries’ is what LAND the fire started on and why the Washington State Department of National Resources and the US Forestry were called in ‘right away’ that afternoon.

    I’m not sure why anyone ever thought that was any kind of mystery, because just a few clicks with a mouse proves that the fire started on PRIVATELY OWNED land… and everything on ‘Woods Canyon Road’ where all the injuries and fatalities took place is also all PRIVATELY OWNED LAND / RESIDENCES.

    The Okanogan County Tax Assesor’s office uses an Interactive, graphical ‘map’ based online application called “TerraScan Mapsifter” in order to allow anyone to ‘Zoom in’ on any part of Okanogan County and see exact property lines and parcel owners.

    It’s really easy to use.

    Just go to this online page…

    http://okanoganwa.mapsifter.com/default.aspx

    The first thing you are going to see is a ‘Zoomed out’ Topographical map of all of Okanogan County with a ‘Blue Line Grid’ on top of it.

    The ‘Blue Line Grid” is broken into squares. Each square represents a USGS ‘Section’.

    The ‘Section’ that contains Woods Canyon Road is there in the lower left of this ‘Blue Line Grid’ that first appears.

    It is numbered T33R21.

    In USGA lingo that stands for ‘Township 33, Range 21’.

    So just start ‘double clicking’ in the lower-left part of the ‘Blue Line Grid’ and keep ‘Zooming down’ inside Section T33R21 until you start to see an ‘Orange Line Grid’ start to appear on top of the terrain.

    That ‘Orange Line’ grid is the exact property lines for the Twisp area.

    ‘Woods Canyon Road’ is about 5 miles to the west of downtown Twisp and it is ‘named’ on the map as you work your way out of Twisp and to the WEST on ‘Twisp River Road’.

    Once you are in the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ area you can simply LEFT-CLICK ( just once ) inside any of the ‘Orange Lined Property Boundaries’ and a POPUP will be telling you exactly who the OWNER of that parcel of land is.

    The Engine going off the road and the resulting fatalities took place on the same “37 Woods Canyon Road” parcel of land where the fire was first reported to have been started…

    Parcel Number: 3321050013
    Owner: Tazioli, Gregory and Martha
    Situs: 37 Woods Canyon Road

    ALL of the surrounding parcels of land are ALL privately owned, as well.

    Only if you start working your way to the NORTHEAST towards a large parcel of land about a mile away from where the fatalities took place do you find anything resembling ‘Public Land’.

    Off to the NORTHEAST from Woods Canyon Road there is this parcel…

    Parcel Number: 3321050015
    Owner: Washington State Department of Natural Resources
    Situs: ( No entry )

    To the EAST of that large parcel you start getting into some smaller parcels that list the ‘owner’ as not WA DNR but the “Washington State Department of Wildlife”.

    So there WAS some WA DNR land there to the NORTHEAST of where this fire started… and the Twisp fire DID end up buring ‘onto’ that WA DNR land…

    …but there’s no question that the area where the fire started and the entire area where the injuries and fatalities took place was definitely all PRIVATELY OWNED LAND / RESIDENCES.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      As you ‘Zoom down’ onto the Section labelled ‘T33R21’… “Woods Canyon Road” is actually going to be appearing in the TOP LEFT CORNER of that ‘Section’.

      Just keep ‘double clicking’ and ‘zooming down’ in the TOP LEFT CORNER of Section ‘T33R21’ and the road label “Woods Canyon Road” will eventually appear along with the Orange property lines.

      Reply

    • Followup 2…

      One of the reasons I said up above is that there still seems to be ‘unnecessary confusion’ about exactly WHERE these men DIED is because of publications like the following.

      Here is a link to an ‘official’ document already published on the ‘United States Fire Administration” ( USFA ) site, with a FEMA.GOV prefix in the domain name of the URL…

      The NAME of this PDF document is (Twisp) Firefighter Fatality Details.

      http://apps.usfa.fema.gov/firefighter-fatalities/fatalityData/fatalityDetailExport?deathDt=Aug+19+2015&usg=AFQjCNGU2urtz5rlrH2kqbUWsKRN4itZ2A&bvm=bv.102022582

      From the very top of this ‘official’ USFA document…
      —————————————————————————–
      Firefighter Wheeler, Firefighter Zajac, and Firefighter Zbyszewski were killed and one additional firefighter was injured when the Twisp wildfire trapped them in their apparatus on state forest land. The firefighters, members of an engine crew from the Okanogan Wenatchee National Forest, were involved in initial attack operations on the fire near Woods Canyon and Twisp River Roads in Washington State when their vehicle crashed and fire overtook it after winds suddenly shifted. The injured firefighter remains in the hospital in critical condition. Several other firefighters with dozer crews were also reported to have been injured. Investigation into the fatal incident continues.
      —————————————————————————–

      The very first sentence is…

      “Firefighter Wheeler, Firefighter Zajac, and Firefighter Zbyszewski were killed and one additional firefighter was injured when the Twisp wildfire trapped them in their apparatus on state forest land.”

      Horseshit.

      They weren’t anywhere near ‘State Forest Land’.

      They died on someone’s private property ( Okanogan County Private Property Parcel Number: 3321050013 ) after driving off a residential road named “Woods Canyon Road”.

      Reply

  148. ** TWISP FIRE UPDATE
    **
    ** REPORT FROM MARY ANN AND DENNIS KIRKLAND ABOUT
    ** THEIR ESCAPE FROM WOODS CANYON ROAD
    **
    ** Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller was ‘in charge’
    ** of access to ‘Woods Canyon Road’.

    A lot of MSM articles have been published featuring people that had to evacuate Twisp… but this one is unique.

    It’s the “in our own words” account coming from Mary Ann and Dennis Kirkland who LIVED on Woods Canyon Road and not only evacuated from there, but Dennis Kirkland tells the story of having to go BACK UP ‘Woods Canyon Road’ later ( but before the wind shift ) to save their two dogs.

    The ‘garage’ being talked about in this article is also very likely the same driveway/garage that was going to be where a number of firefighters got entrapped later and had to deploy.

    According to the MSM interview below with Mary Ann and Dennis Kirland, it was Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller who first went up Woods Canyon Road in his command vehicle to notify everyone up there to evacuate. It was then Don Waller himself who was deciding who could or couldn’t go back up Woods Canyon Road.

    Long before the wind change, Dennis Kirkland had returned to that point where Woods Canyon Road intersects with the Twisp River Road and was pleading with Waller to let him go back up Woods Canyon Road to rescue their two dogs, which Mary Ann had had no time to gather up before she evacuated earlier.

    Chief Don Waller would not let him go up Woods Canyon Road, saying it was ‘too dangerous’.

    Dennis Kirkland obeyed Waller… but stayed there on Twisp River Road watching the fire.

    After about 20 minutes… it was obvious the fire was NOT burning ‘towards’ Woods Canyon Road yet and Chief Waller then let Kirland go up Woods Canyon Road to get his dogs… but only in the company of another volunteer firefighter and only in the firefighter’s truck.

    Dennis Kirkland and this ( unidentified ) volunteer firefighter were ‘up and back’ in 5 minutes and the wind had still not changed by the time they got back down to Twisp River Road.

    So there was no question that access to ‘Woods Canyon Road’ was being closely guarded from very early on and the firefighters who were there ( Waller, etc. ) knew how ‘risky’ it would be to send anyone up there.

    They WERE being ‘very careful’ and they DID know the dangers of letting anyone go up Woods Canyon Road that afternoon.

    How we get from that obvious ‘guarded access’ and “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” mentality even early on that afternoon… to there being two complete Engines and Crews traveling up there to do nothing but become entrapped is the current mystery.

    The Methow Valley News
    Article Title: Running from the fire
    Published: August 27, 2015 – 4:15 pm PDT
    By Laurelle Walsh and Marcy Stamper
    http://methowvalleynews.com/2015/08/27/running-from-the-fire/

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————————-
    What caused the fire that ignited near Twisp River Road and Woods Canyon Road on Aug. 19 is still being investigated, but its rapid spread, proximity to towns and homes, and resulting evacuations have impacted nearly all in the Methow Valley community.

    Everyone has their story, but almost no one was closer to the start of the fire than Mary Ann Kirkland.

    Only two months ago, Dennis and Mary Ann Kirkland sold their home on Woods Canyon Road — the furthest residence of only six houses on the narrow, winding road — and are now in the process of building a new home in Twisp. In the mean time they have been living in their neighbors’ small apartment above a detached garage in the same Woods Canyon neighborhood, about 6 miles from town.

    Around 12:45 p.m. on Aug. 19, Mary Ann, who was home alone at the time, heard her dog “barking like crazy,” so she looked out the curtains that were closed against the noon-day sun.

    Okanogan County Fire District 6 Chief Don Waller was below, pounding on the door of their neighbors’ house, and shouting.“‘You have to get out of here immediately,’” Mary Ann recalls hearing Waller say. “‘You have to get out of here or you’re going to die.’ It was something I never thought I was going to hear,” Mary Ann said. “I didn’t have shoes or anything. I grabbed my purse and ran with no shoes on, down the stairs, across the gravel and into my car.” Neither she nor Waller were able to get the two dogs. Waller told her to “just go.”

    Mary Ann drove down the steep dirt road as fast as she could, thinking to herself, “I hope I don’t hit a deer,” she remembers. “I didn’t see the fire because I was so focused on getting down the road. I didn’t process anything except for to get out of there. I was panicked. At that time I thought both my dogs were dead.”

    In the mean time her husband, Dennis ( Kirkland ), who had been in town working on their new house in Twisp, received a phone call about the fire from a friend and raced up Twisp River Road.
    On the way, despite spotty cell phone coverage, Mary Ann managed to get a call through to him, and pleaded with Dennis to rescue their dogs.

    “I arrived at the road to see if I could gain access,” Dennis said. “Initially Don Waller wouldn’t let me go up — he said it was too dangerous.” He stood with the fire chief, watching the fire from Twisp River Road for about 20 minutes, Dennis estimates. Seeing that the fire wasn’t moving toward Woods Canyon Road, Waller asked a volunteer firefighter to take Dennis up the road in his truck to get the two dogs “Flames were quite close to the road,” Dennis recalls. “We went up the road, grabbed the dogs, and got out of there within about 5 minutes.”

    Shortly after they returned safely at the foot of the road, the wind direction changed and flames crossed over Woods Canyon Road. “Had the wind direction changed earlier, I could have been trapped,” Dennis said.

    “I feel fortunate to be alive,” Mary Ann said. “We’re alive and our animals are alive.”

    “Had the part-time neighbor not been there and called in the fire, Mary Ann would have had no way of knowing the fire was there,” Dennis said. “Had Don Waller not knocked on the door, if she hadn’t been notified, she would have died.”

    Everything the Kirklands had in the apartment was destroyed. “Absolutely everything was burned,” said Mary Ann. “Every time I think about something, I remember, ‘Oh, that burned.’”

    “It’s hard to know what to do next,” Dennis said. “We have to replace our checkbooks, remember all our passwords, get the computers working again, finish building the house.”
    —————————————————————————————-

    Reply

      • Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on September 5, 2015 at 4:02 pm

        >> RTS said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT,
        >>
        >> Thanks for your due diligence and good work with all
        >> these Twisp Canyon Fire posts.

        You’re welcome.

        I wish I could add “my pleasure”… but I can’t.

        I wish to God none of this had ever happened and we were weren’t even here having ANY of these conversations.

        If you bump into any ‘investigators’ ( Local, State or Federal )… please ask them to frickin’ get it RIGHT this time… the FIRST time around.

        Reply

        • WTKTT,

          Twisp Canyon Fire SAIT leader John Phipps said:

          “It’s a myth that you can really figure out that so-and-so did something or so-and-so didn’t do that,” he said. “We’re trying to figure out how it made sense to the people at the time.”

          “We want to shift from holding individuals accountable to an assumed perfect system, to an understanding that we have excellent people operating in an imperfect system.”

          He added that, “the event was tragic enough without our response adding to it.”

          WTF!? They’re all about making them victims, it wasn’t their fault, there was nothing they could do to prevent this … Horse puckey!!!!

          Here’s the whole article

          http://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/2015/aug/23/winds-shifted-shortly-before-flames-overcame-firefighters/

          They’re basically running scared from the 30-Mile Fire and wil do what it takes to ‘control’ the investigation
          He was also involved in the YHF SAIT.
          Remember, they establish a conclusion first, then fit the ‘facts’ to fit that predetermined conclusion

          Reply

          • Reply to Robert the Second post on September 5, 2015 at 9:35 pm

            >> Robert the Second said…
            >>
            >> Twisp Canyon Fire SAIT leader John Phipps said:
            >>
            >> “It’s a myth that you can really figure out that so-and-so
            >> did something or so-and-so didn’t do that,” he said. “We’re
            >> trying to figure out how it made sense to the people at
            >> the time.”

            There is no SAIT this time ( or ever again )… remember?

            They knew themselves that following Yarnell the acronym SAIT only came to mean “Sanitized Alternate Information Team”.

            So now they have their shiny new “Coordinated Response Protocol”, ( CRP ) complete with pretty little graphic ORG charts featuring Japanese Hentai-style faceless ICONS that have all their eyes, noses and mouths removed marking the various position on the ORG chart.

            When you have totally de-branded one ACRONYM… just invent another one.

            I’ve read numerous articles already and this John Phipps guy not only pisses darker shades of green than even Mike Dudley or Jim Karels… he keeps it in bottles on the shelf for future use.

            I just hope CRP doesn’t come to be known as…

            “Creative Reality Perfected”

            >> John Phipps also said…
            >>
            >> “We want to shift from holding individuals accountable
            >> to an assumed perfect system, to an understanding
            >> that we have excellent people operating in an
            >> imperfect system.”

            ( More ) ‘excellent people’ who are now frickin’ DEAD.

            Someone needs to tell this moron that the taxpayers who are paying his salary… AND were paying the salaries of the men who died… AND who paid for the Engine… AND who are now paying for them to sit around and make up new acronyms and spend lots of time NOT trying to find out what really happened to dead civil servants do not EXPECT him, or anyone, to (quote) “Hold individuals accountable to an assumed perfect system”.

            There was a horrible accident in THEIR workplace.
            Good men are DEAD.
            Just tell us taxpayers ( and the families and other people who have to continue to work in similar workplaces ) what ACTUALLY HAPPENED.

            It’s… Not… HARD.

            >> Robert the Second also wrote…
            >>
            >> They’re basically running scared from the 30-Mile Fire
            >> and wil do what it takes to ‘control’ the investigation
            >> He was also involved in the YHF SAIT.

            See above. He really does piss darker shades of green than even Dudley or Karels and he’s probably going to make even their “report” look like some kind of uber-detailed analysis.

            He’s seems to be on track to produce some kind of Dr. Seuss level thing that will be neither ‘Facilitating’ nor ‘Learning’ nor ‘Analysis’.

            >> Robert the Second also said…
            >>
            >> Remember, they establish a conclusion first, then fit
            >> the ‘facts’ to fit that predetermined conclusion.

            Conclusion: Nothing to see here. Move along.

            As for ‘facts’… see what I just posted above.

            An official USFA document is already reporting that these men died on ‘Forestry Land’.

            Total Horseshit.

            If you bump into any of these (cough) ‘investigators’…
            just remind them of something…

            The World is watching…
            The people who WORK in the industry are watching…
            The people who PAY their SALARIES are watching…
            And WE ( here ) are watching.

            Get it RIGHT this time.

            Reply

  149. **
    ** TWISP SCANNER TRAFFIC
    **
    ** AS EARLY AS 1:08 PM PST IT WAS KNOWN THERE WERE SERIOUS
    ** SAFETY/EGRESS CONCERNS WITH REGARDS TO ‘WOODS CANYON ROAD’

    I just wanted to point one more thing out about the recently posted Facebook scanner thread before calling it a day.

    While the general convention for all those folks who were listening to their scanners and posting was to use ALL CAPITAL LETTERS when reporting scanner traffic… that was not written in stone and there were many times when people were NOT using capital letters to report what they were hearing.

    There are some very important pieces of information coming across that were obviously things heard over the scanner, but were NOT ‘capitalized’.

    Here is the intial 40 minute sequence from 12:27 to 1:07 PM ‘condensed’ with only the entries related directly to the fire and what was being heard on the scanner, starting with the very first report of a ‘fire’ at “37 Woods Canyon Road”… and on to a stopping point where the local firefighters KNEW that no one should dare go up “Woods Canyon Road” because there were serious (quote from scanner) “safety/egress concerns”…

    ————————————————————————————–
    |12:27|002| 37 woods canyon road, Twisp. grass fire heading towards a residence, twisp winthrop, plus toning out mazama. Carlton fire dept. and saying contact DNR And Forest Service too…..
    |12:39|002| 2 acres in size moving fast. sending dnr and a rotor to help. starting to threatening houses doing evac percautions
    |12:41|003| DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD
    |12:42|002| ROTOR En route
    |12:44|002| HERE COMES THE DNR CALVERY WHOO HOO!
    |12:44|003| Resources en route, attempting to get air support
    |12:47|002| RE TONE MAZAMA FIRE
    |12:50|002| 3 dozers and 3 water tenders reporting to this fire too..
    |12:52|002| investigator is a hr and 15 min ETA to get there to fire
    |12:54|002| 20 homes threatened
    |01:00|002| It is in a bad area for crews to get in safely, need that rotor to start protecting the houses. can’t get into minor creek to dangerous, charging up the hill
    |01:01|002| ordering a air attack too
    |01:02|007| No eta on air. Still trying to talk to them.
    |01:03|002| damn, eta 45 mins,
    |01:07|019| USFS has ordered 3 tenders and 3 dozers, trying to get air support, 20 structures threatened, FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns, 2 acres about 30 minutes ago.
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    That last entry is not in the ALL CAPITALS convention… but it is OBVIOUSLY poster #19 ( Mike Shirley ) summarizing what he has just heard firefighters talking about circa 1:07 PM PST while he was listening to HIS scanner.

    Again… that last actually has FIVE different pieces of information in it that Mike Shirley had just heard over his scanner…

    |01:07|019|
    USFS has ordered 3 tenders and 3 dozers…
    Trying to get air support…
    20 structures threatened…
    FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns…
    2 acres about 30 minutes ago.

    The most important one of those FIVE ‘reports’ at 1:07 PM PST is obviously this…

    “FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns”

    So even by 1:07 PM PST it was CLEARLY known to the initial responders ( FD#6 ) that there was no way to get ‘trucks’ up ‘Woods Canyon Road’ in any kind of safe manner under the current conditions… and this is even 2 hours BEFORE the wind would change.

    So if anyone is looking for similarities between what happened in Twisp to what happened in Yarnell we now have the following…

    Just as it STILL needs to be determined how we got ( in Yarnell ) from…

    3:50 PM: “We are committed to the ridge ( and the black )… Copy… Hunker and be safe”

    To…

    4:39 PM: “WE ARE IN FRONT OF THE FLAMING FRONT!!!”

    The Twisp investigators need to also now determine how we got from…

    |12:41|003| DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD
    |01:07|019| FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns

    To…

    |02:56|002| ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
    |02:56|002| 6 MILES UP BURN VICTIM AERO METHOW CALLED
    |03:01|002| MUILITPLE FIRE FIGHTERS ENTRAPMENT, WOODS CANYON
    |03:07|002| FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP

    …in Twisp.

    Reply

    • Minor correction for above. Some typos. All ‘Twisp’ times are PDT ( Pacific Daylight Time )
      and NOT PST ( Pacific Standard Time ).

      Reply

  150. **
    ** THE SEATTLE TIMES PUBLISHES SOME DISPATCH RECORDS
    **
    ** THE TIMES MATCH THE FACEBOOK THREAD SCANNER REPORTS

    Th Seattle Times
    Dispatch records show timeline of fatal fire
    Originally published August 27, 2015 at 6:40 am Updated August 27, 2015 at 11:04 pm
    By The Associated Press

    http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dispatch-records-show-minute-by-minute-account-of-fatal-fire/

    From the article…
    ————————————————————————————————–
    Details from the notes taken by dispatchers on Aug. 19, when three firefighters were killed and four others injured fighting the Twisp River fire.

    Dispatchers with the Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office helped coordinate the responses of federal, state and local firefighters, police and sheriff’s deputies and other emergency responders to fire near Twisp in North Central Washington.

    Below are some details from the notes taken by dispatchers on Aug. 19, when three firefighters were killed and four others injured fighting the fire. The dispatch records were obtained by The Associated Press through a public-records request.

    A supplemental report added to the dispatch log a few days later included a description of the accident scene by a deputy who helped the county coroner retrieve the bodies from the burned Forest Service fire engine.

    The door handles of the engine had burned away, so one of the doors had to be pried open to gain access to the vehicle, Deputy Ottis Buzzard wrote.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    I’m going to take the ‘events’ that the Seattle times published and compare them to entries in the Facebook thread.

    You will see that for the few events being reported from ‘Dispatcher Notes’… then there are pretty much matching real-time scanner traffic entries for each in the Facebook thread.

    The exception is following the entrapment when ( apparently ) the medical services transmissions had now either switched to private channels or to cellphones.

    2:49 p.m. — A deputy advises dispatchers that the wind has changed direction, now heading west to east at about 15 miles an hour.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |02:50|002|WIND CHANGED, abandoning notifacations west, starting evac notifacations east on the area
    |02:50|006|SHIT!!!!
    ———————————————————–

    2:52 p.m. — An automatic emergency-management alert is sent, advising all residents on or near the Twisp River to evacuate immediately.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |02:51|002| all residents on pr near twisp river road evac immediately. automated call going to be sent
    |02:52|002| EVACUATE NOW!! ALL ON TWISP RIVER ROAD!!!
    |02:53|002| THEY JUST SAID OK ER MANAGEMENT AUTOMATED TEXT CALL GOING OUT. ALL ON OR NEAR TWISP RIVER ROAD EVACUATE NOW, HEADING TO PINE FOREST AREA TO NOTIFY!
    ———————————————————–

    2:56 p.m. — A local fire district calls for an ambulance for a burn victim, about 6 miles up the road.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |02:56|002| ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
    |02:56|002| 6 MILES UP BURN VICTIM AERO METHOW CALLED
    ———————————————————–

    2:57 p.m. — Evacuations continue, an elderly resident refuses to leave his home, and a deputy warns dispatchers that the fire may jump over Twisp River Road, which in calmer conditions could serve as a natural firebreak.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |02:58|002| CLOSING ELBOW COLUEE AT TWISP RIVER ROAD. GOING TO JUMP THAT SECTION
    |02:58|002| FIRE MOVING EAST NORTH EAST DIRECTION OVER ELBOW COULEE.
    |02:59|002| ONE ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE
    ———————————————————–

    3:01 p.m. — A Department of Natural Resources employee advises dispatchers that multiple firefighters are entrapped. This notation is believed to refer to the engine crash, but no other details are included.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |03:01|002| EVERYONE LEAVE TWISP RIVER AND ELBOW COULEE AND PINE FOREST DEVELOPMENT. MUILITPLE FIRE FIGHTERS ENTRAPMENT, WOODS CANYON AND ELBOW COULEE
    ———————————————————–

    3:02 p.m. — Emergency workers are headed to Twisp City with a patient, no other details given.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |03:04|002|HAVING MEDSTAR ON STANDBY
    |03:07|002|FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
    ———————————————————–

    3:05 to 3:59 p.m. — Evacuations and road closures continue, and all law-enforcement officers that aren’t currently assigned to calls are asked to meet at a nearby high school.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    |03:09|002|MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
    |03:11|002|CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
    |03:12|002|DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
    |03:13|002|AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
    |03:14|028|saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
    |03:15|002|ELBOW COULEE TWISP RIVER ROAD AERO METHOW CALLED FOR ENTRAPMENT
    ———————————————————–

    NOTE: From this point on… it appears that the radio traffic had now gone to either private channels or ceased altogether and cellphones were now being used. The Dispatch log notes reporting medical events in the upcoming timeframe no longer have any matching entires in the Facebook thread radio scanner reports.

    4:01 p.m. — Dispatchers note that the Department of Natural Resources is still requesting Life Flight, an air ambulance. One person needs to be medically evacuated and another patient is being assessed.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    NOTE: No corresponding scanner traffic reported that matches this reported Dispatch event.
    ———————————————————–

    4:36 p.m. — One patient is handed off to a critical-care transport team at the airport.

    Facebook thread…
    ———————————————————–
    NOTE: No corresponding scanner traffic reported that matches this reported Dispatch event.
    ———————————————————–

    END OF SEATTLE TIMES ARTICLE

    NOTE: While there seem to be matching entries in the Facebook thread for the ‘events’ that are being reported from the FOIA obtained Dispatch Records… it is curious what is NOT being reported.

    Example: The Seattle Times isn’t reporting anything coming from the FOIA Dispatch logs about the apparent attempt to drop retardant on the trapped firefighters, which seems clear in the scanner traffic being reported on the Facebook thread.

    There is also ( so far ) absolutely no mention of there being anything in the FOIA obtained Dispatch records that matches the “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” scanner traffic reported over on the Facebook thread.

    Reply

  151. ** TWISP FIRE – VIDEO 2
    **
    ** EMERGENCY VLAT RETARDANT DROP ON THE ENTRAPPED FIREFIGHTERS

    In the previous video, taken by Ronald Race BEFORE the wind shifted, he and his nephew Ben Wilmot were there at that house just a few hundred yards east of where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    Once they had finished helping that neighbor with their sprinkler system, they moved to the EAST to another house there on the south side of the Twisp River Road to do the same thing.

    At THAT location… Ronald Race’s nephew ( Ben Wilmot ) then took another video.

    THIS one was taken right about 3:30 PM, according to Ben Wilmot himself.

    That is the exact time when emergency retardant drops were taking place with a VLAT to try and protect the ‘entrapped’ firefighters up on ‘Woods Canyon Road’.

    Ben Wilmot did not KNOW that was what he was filming… but he was.

    In the video… you see a VLAT “COMING IN HOT” ( Fast and low ), exactly as described in the scanner traffic in the accompanying Facebook thread.

    The VLAT ‘drops’ right into the MIDDLE of the smoke and exactly right around the point where there was a HOUSE and a DRIVEWAY up there on ‘Woods Canyon Road’. This is very likely to turn out to be the exact DRIVEWAY ( or garage as RTS now reports ) were some of the FFs up there had become ‘entrapped’… which is also reported clearly in the Facebook thread scanner traffic.

    ** THE VLAT DROP VIDEO

    This VIDEO was posted the night of August 19, 2015 to the ‘Okanogan County And Methow Valley Local Topics of interest” Facebook ‘Group’ page by local resident Ben Wilmot, who is Ronald Race’s nephew.

    He said he shot the video at 3:30 PM that afternoon.

    It was taken from a house there on the south side of the “Twisp River Road” just east of where “Woods Canyon Road” intersects with the “Twisp River Road”.

    Wilmot and his Uncle, Ronald Race, were there at that house helping to set up sprinkler systems and you can see (apparently) Mr. Race actually doing that in the lower left corner of the video while his nephew Ben Wilmot films this VLAT drop onto ‘Woods Canyon Road’.

    Direct link to this video on Facebook…

    https://www.facebook.com/ben.wilmot.376/videos/o.944925525573021/1624578841157011/?type=2&theater

    Comments that were posted on August 19, 2015, along with this VIDEO posting…
    —————————————————————————————————–
    Okanogan County And Methow Valley Local Topics of interest

    August 19
    Ben Wilmot: VIDEO ( by Ben Wilmot ): Up Twisp River by Elbow Coulee about 3:30.

    August 19 at 7:05pm PDT
    Karen Huntington Schmidt: That is Awesome! Looks like the same plane that went over my house a couple of hours ago.

    August 19 at 9:49pm PDT
    Ben Wilmot: Ya I think that was the same one that dumped on our place last year.

    August 19 at 7:10pm PDT
    Gayle C Clemens: and people are still that close? working on a fence… dang I’d be packing

    August 19 at 9:50pm PDT
    Ben Wilmot: He was setting up a irrigation system for sprinklers.

    August 19 at 9:52pm PDT
    Elise Walker: Please keep this post till after the evacuation notices have stopped…

    August 19 at 9:53pm PDT
    Ben Wilmot: K

    August 20 at 11:55pm PDT
    Jason Bolser: Was that one of those 747 air tankers?

    August 20 at 11:57pm PDT
    Ben Wilmot: DC-10 I believe

    August 20 at 11:58pm PDT
    Jason Bolser: Does anyone know if those 747 are in state?

    August 20 at 12:01am PDT
    Elise Walker: Last chance….Last warning. Tonight is not the night to trump evacuations with awesome pictures. Again. Closed thread for today

    August 20 at 12:13am PDT
    Ben Wilmot: Ok it should be deleted off there I was confused earlier when you said earlier to keep the post. Thought you meant keep it up. Soooo sorry.

    August 20 at 12:32am PDT
    Elise Walker: You can keep it on here…close the thread for now please. Picture is great and fits perfect with the group. They need info on evacuations and fires themselves tonight. Leave the picture…just no posts ok!

    August 20 at 12:34am PDT
    Elise Walker Later, when it settles..please please please let’s see it if you deleted it! We love pictures…just tonight people aren’t getting out in time and are getting stranded in the fire
    ——————————————————————————-

    The ‘time’ that Ben Wilmot estimated for when he took this video MATCHES the following radio scanner traffic captured in the Facebook thread circa 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM PDT on August 19, 2015.

    There seem to be TWO different VLAT drops documented in the Facebook thread in this 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM PDT timeframe. The video could actually be either one of these drops… but BOTH of these appeared to be ’emergency’ VLAT retardant drops intended to protect the ‘entrapped’ firefighters up on ‘Woods Canyon Road’…

    ——————————————————————————–
    |03:07|002| FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
    |03:08|049| Praying….
    |03:09|028| wrap them in your prayers, keep them safe!
    |03:19|016| Prayers
    |03:07|009| Jesus please keep them safe!
    |03:09|008| Praying.
    |03:09|002| MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
    |03:11|002| CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
    |03:12|050| Omg pray pray pray!!
    |03:12|002| DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
    |03:13|016| Prayers
    |03:13|016| My daughter is out
    |03:13|002| AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
    |03:14|004| Hurry
    |03:14|041| Praying for everyone.
    |03:14|028| saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
    |03:15|002| ELBOW COULEE TWISP RIVER ROAD AERO METHOW CALLED FOR ENTRAPMENT
    |03:20|034| BIG BIG PLANE ON THE WAY!!!
    |03:24|034| Don’t know where it was heading. Only view from overhead Winthrop.
    |03:29|054| just saw the big plane coming through!
    |03:31|004| Yes
    |03:31|057| Its a big jet flying over yaya
    |03:31|058| scanner frequency 159.3150.
    |03:40|059| Ed, Are you hearing updates? Melody had to leave and Elize has her hands very full!!
    |03:44|058| I’m listening, but haven’t been posting. I’ll post on this thread. Sounds like they had another injury.
    |03:36|017| Just saw a big plane overhead heading up TWR.
    |03:41|017| just flew over my house heading east.
    |03:40|061| Huge jet just went over twisp town.
    ——————————————————————————–

    Reply

  152. **
    ** TWISP FIRE – VIDEO 1
    **
    ** VIDEO FROM THE TWISP FIRE SHOWING TWO HELICOPTERS DIPPING WATER
    ** RIGHT WHERE WOODS CANYON ROAD MEETS THE TWISP RIVER ROAD CIRCA
    ** 2:40 PM PDT ON AUGUST 19, 2015 AND JUST BEFORE THE WIND CHANGED.

    The following Facebook video was publicly posted by an Okanogan County resident named Ronald Race at 6:21 PM PDT on August 19, Wednesday.

    Earlier that afternoon, Ronald Race and his nephew, Ben Wilmot, were right there a few hundreds yards east of the point where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ actually intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    The fire at address ’37 Woods Canyon Road’ that was first reported on radio scanner traffic at 12:27 PM PDT that day was already underway when this video was taken… but the wind was still blowing the fire to the WEST ( and away from both Woods Canyon Road and the town of Twisp )… but not for long. At the time this video was taken… the wind was just ABOUT to change.

    Ronald Race and his nephew ( Ben Wimot ) were at a residence just a few hundred yards east of the fire and Race filmed this video of the first set of Helicopters ( two ) dipping water from the Twisp River and flying just a short distance to dump on the fire burning just west of ‘Woods Canyon Road’. He filmed TWO different Helicopters dipping from the Twisp River there near “Woods Canyon Road”… one right after the other.

    This video shows the fire as it was BEFORE the wind changed and blew the fire back EAST and across ‘Woods Canyon Road’ itself.

    The exact time for this video is not known. Facebook strips EXIF timestamp information from uploaded videos and Ronald Race doesn’t seem to remember the exact time he took it.

    The video does, however, match the following timestamped entries and reported ‘events’ in the other Facebook thread that appeared shortly BEFORE there was a posting about the sudden WIND CHANGE and the time for the video seems to be in the 2:40 PM PDT range.

    At 1:22 PM PDT we see the first report of a “rotor on scene” which was then just 1 minute before scanner would also report “Unified Command now, with all fire crews”.

    Then, about 2:43 PM PDT we see people verifying there are now TWO helicopters ‘on scene’ and dipping from the Twisp River, exactly as Ronald Rance’s video shows.

    There are now also reports at this same time ( the time of this video as well ) that the (quote) “wind is picking up again”.

    ————————————————————————————-
    |12:35|004| Damn it. How far up Twisp River? I am in Wenatchee. I live on poorman creek.
    |12:37|005| Woods Canyon Rd, Carolyn.
    |12:37|006| Just past elbow coulee
    |12:39|002| 2 acres in size moving fast. sending dnr and a rotor to help. starting to threatening houses doing evac percautions
    |12:41|003| DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD
    |12:42|002| ROTOR En route
    |12:44|002| HERE COMES THE DNR CALVERY WHOO HOO!
    |12:44|003| Resources en route, attempting to get air support
    |12:47|002| RE TONE MAZAMA FIRE
    |12:50|002| 3 dozers and 3 water tenders reporting to this fire too..
    |01:01|002| ordering a air attack too
    |01:02|007| No eta on air. Still trying to talk to them.
    |01:02|016| Cell phone must be down
    |01:03|002| damn, eta 45 mins,
    |01:07|019| USFS has ordered 3 tenders and 3 dozers, trying to get air support, 20 structures threatened, FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns, 2 acres about 30 minutes ago.
    |01:04|002| need to close twisp river road
    |01:19|003| City is currently ok
    |01:20|002| twisp town is fine. it is up twisp river at elbow coulee
    |01:20|016| And poor man Creek Road
    |01:22|002| one rotor on scene now
    |01:23|002| doing unified command now, with all fire crews

    |02:39|002| 50 plus acres, 20 structures immediately threatened, if don’t get air attack possible 100 homes threatened. heading into twisp drainage
    |02:42|004| They can’t let it get in the drainage !
    |02:44|002| not quite in drainage yet, but getting close
    |02:41|024| Root said they were dipping from some lake up there.
    |02:44|030| Looked to me like they were dipping in the river, when I was there 20 min ago
    |02:45|028| Patterson Lake or there is a little lake up there too… not much water in the Twisp
    |03:00|030| No, not much water, but they were not flying far… just across the road, so I’m guessing thats the river.
    |02:41|028| and the wind is picking up again…. cmon AIR SUPPORT!
    |02:41|002| they need that fixed winged air craft!
    |02:42|025| I believe there is air support
    |02:42|002| rotors yes!
    |02:43|030| Yes, there are two helicopters on the scene
    |02:44|025| ok thank you! praying they get there soon.
    |02:48|030| They are on it. Imagine they were there shortly after it was reported.
    ————————————————————————————-

    Ronald Race’s own actual description of this video when he posted it…

    ———————————————————————————————-
    Ronald Race shared his video. – August 19 at 6:21pm

    This was before the fire blew up out Twisp River, there were 3 helicopters and a good dozen fire trucks and one dozer that i saw. then trees started running up and crowning all the way up, started sounding like jet engines starting up, then it ran from the starting frame of this video to the right towards Winthrop up hill faster than you can ride a dirt bike. My phone maxed out of video room so i missed the take off but there was no shortage of resources on the onset of this fire, I was impressed with the amount of fire crews. The smoke on the right of the screen is where the fire started it seems.
    ———————————————————————————————-

    Direct link to this video… which shows TWO different helicopters dipping out of the Twisp River, one right after the other…

    https://www.facebook.com/ronald.race.1/videos/vb.100002004273159/904031909673610/?type=2&theater

    Notice in the comments below he ( Ronald Race ) confirms that they WERE helping these people with the deck get their ‘sprinklers’ set up, as Ben Wilmot’s video will also show…

    Comments for this VIDEO posting by Ronald Race ( Ben Wilmot’s Uncle )…
    ————————————————————————————————–
    August 19 at 6:21 PDT
    Ronald Race: My VIDEO: The fire out twisp river before it blew up

    August 19 at 6:33pm PDT
    Debra Green: Is this from the rosenstines deck?

    August 19 at 6:34pm PDT
    Ronald Race: yes.

    August 19 at 6:35pm PDT
    Debra Green: Is their house still there?

    August 19 at 6:37pm PDT
    Ronald Race: it was when i left but i heard the field next to it was on fire after i left and fire fighters were there fighting it.

    August 19 at 6:39pm PDT
    Debra Green: Thanks I hope they left with you

    August 19 at 6:39pm PDT
    Ronald Race: the fire is coming down the hill just up from spokane grade towards Twisp river road

    August 19 at 6:41pm PDT
    Ronald Race: I saw them in town when i was leaving, they had time to get their stuff ,animals and get, we helped get their

    sprinklers on their deck, start the generator to try to protect their home.

    August 19 at 6:40pm PDT
    Samantha Conover: How many miles up Twisp River.. my parents place is located at the Junction of Newby creek and Twisp River Rd. any help would be appreciated. Have not heard from them. Thank you

    August 19 at 6:42pm PDT
    Ronald Race: the fire is about 4-5 miles up twisp river, newby creek is a far ways up still and the fire is burning away from them

    August 19 at 6:42pm PDT
    Debra Green This is 6 miles up. Newby is about 7.5

    August 19 at 6:44pm PDT
    Ronald Race from where the fire started, i did not see it go any east or up river from where it started, it only went north east towards winthrop from where it started, I was there for about 2 hours until after it blew up, it was moving fast so we hi tailed it.

    August 19 at 6:44pm PDT
    Samantha Conover Thank you so much.. this is very sad.. sorry for everyone’s loss.. thinking of all fire personal..
    ——————————————————————————————————

    ** ENGINES SEEN IN THIS VIDEO WHERE ‘WOODS CANYON ROAD’
    ** MEETS THE ‘TWISP RIVER ROAD’

    If you look closely in the left-center of the video above at both the START of the video and during the whole time the SECOND Helicopter is being filmed dipping from the Twisp River… you will see some ‘flashing lights’ and a group of ‘Engines’ assembled there on the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    They are sitting there at the exact point where ‘Woods Canyon Road’ intersects with the ‘Twisp River Road’.

    I count at least FOUR… maybe FIVE engines there and one of them is that bright lime-green color. The others are standard RED with Chrome.

    They seem to be doing exactly what Mr. Ronald Race is doing at this moment and just watching the TWO Helicopters make their dips out of the Twisp River.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      If anyone is having trouble seeing the Ronald Race video at the URL above… try this one…

      https://video-dfw1-1.xx.fbcdn.net/hvideo-xfp1/v/t42.1790-2/11921148_904031956340272_1633476235_n.mp4?oh=5e3e44fc53c4adfe55143fa1035211e7&oe=55EA8E19

      What you will get is the MOBILE version of the same video. It won’t be as high a resolution as the URL above but you don’t even need to be logged into Facebook in order to use this Mobile link to the same video.

      By the way… Facebook actually maintains a separate set of comments for the Mobile versions of uploaded videos so in this case we see Ronald Race himself saying even MORE about this video of his including mentioning what happened to the firefighters out there.

      Here are the comments associated with the MOBILE version of the same video…

      —————————————————————————-
      August 19
      Ronald Race: The fire out twisp river before it blew up

      Aubree Bird and 2 others like this.

      Dan Hall: Heard they were ordering evacuation of Twisp?

      Michaelene Russell: Are you guys ok!?

      Jacqueline-Jackie Jess: Praying for your safety

      Ronald Race: The wind shifted and blew back on the fire crew, they had to deploy their emergency shelters for protection, 3 died and 4 in hospital. Fire headed towards Winthrop and Twisp. Both on level 3 mandatory evacuation, We were helping friends evacuate when we took the videos, Just to the left of where the helicopters were dipping water is where their house is, where we were videoing from, the fire jumped the road and started on this side of the road.

      Pamela Maltby Aye: Ron I can’t imagine…. Hug Cheryl for me!
      —————————————————————————-

      Reply

    • Another followup regarding ‘VIDEO 1’ and Mr. Ronald Race…

      **
      ** RONALD RACE COMMENTS ON AN ARTICLE AT FIREFIGHTER NATION

      The following ‘Firefighter Nation’ article was published on August 27, 2015, and it was a reprint of an ‘Associated Press’ article that was now reporting it had obtained ‘Dispatch Records’ for the Twisp fire via a ‘Freedom of Information’ act.

      Mr. Ronald Race himself left a comment and told more of what he saw on August 19, 2015 there near Woods Canyon Road.

      FIREFIGHTER NATION
      Wind Shift and Chaos in Washington Wildfire
      Twisp tragedy highlights sudden unexpected danger from changing winds
      Published: Thursday, August 27, 2015

      http://www.firefighternation.com/article/news-2/wind-shift-and-chaos-washington-wildfire

      From the article itself…
      ————————————————————————–
      Seven minutes after a deputy radioed that the wind from a growing wildfire had shifted direction, dispatchers got a second call: A burn victim needed an ambulance. Five minutes later, another caller said several firefighters were trapped.

      Dispatch records from the Okanogan County Sheriff’s Office obtained by The Associated Press through a public records request detail the chaos of the Aug. 19 fire and coordinated response to the blaze that exploded during one of the driest and most explosive wildfire seasons on record.

      Four fire engines with engine crews, a hand crew on foot, bulldozer and helicopter were part of the initial attack on the fire, said Keith Satterfield, a fire management officer for the Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest.

      Swift-shifting winds have played a role in the deaths of other wildland firefighters, including 19 members of an elite crew who died after a wildfire trapped them in a brush-choked canyon near the Arizona town of Yarnell in 2013.
      ————————————————————————–

      ** RONALD RACE’S COMMENT

      There has been only ONE comment posted at the bottom of the article, and it comes from Mr. Ronald Race, the same man who shot the ‘TWISP VIDEO 1’ at the link above showing 2 Helicopters dipping from the Twisp River and attacking the ‘Woods Canyon Road’ fire just shortly before the wind changed.

      He uses the same “it went up the ridge as fast as a dirt-bike” comparison in this online comment as he used in his own Facebook comments for his video.

      ————————————————————————–
      Comment posted Aug 27, 2015, at 8:21pm

      By: Ronald Race – Owner-Operator at RRRaceway Locksmith

      There were 3 helicopters fighting that fire before the wind shifted,a white one labeled FIRE under it with a bucket, the other white one must have been forest serv with a bucket and an orange one, donkey helicopter with bucket, all 3 were fighting the fire before the wind changed, the 2 white ones were dipping into the beaver ponds by Twisp river within 100 yards of the fire and dumping, making many dumps before the wind changed, even with all the water from the helicopters, trees were igniting full length but the fire was relatively staying put until the wind changed, then it went streight up the ridge about as fast as a dirt bike could ride the ridge without looking back, streight towards Winthrop- Twisp. It got Big real quick.
      ————————————————————————–

      Reply

  153. **
    ** THE COMPLETE FACEBOOK THREAD WITH REAL-TIME SCANNER RADIO
    ** TRAFFIC CAPTURED THE AFTERNOON OF AUGUST 19, 2015 AND
    ** CONCERNING THE ‘WOODS CANYON ROAD’ FIRE IN TWISP, WA.

    Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on September 4, 2015 at 11:58 am

    >> Robert the Second (RTS) said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT and All Others,
    >>
    >> You posted awhile back here about some FB postings from the Twisp
    >> Canyon Fire fatalities regarding radio transmissions warning to
    >> ‘STAY OUT OF WOODS CANYON’. There are some Twisp Canyon
    >> Fire SAIT Investigators interested in that information, especially the time stamps.

    RTS… sorry… I really was just about to post all this just before the news of the new ‘softball interview’ with Brendan McDonough appeared.

    NOTE: This WordPress software has a ‘message length’ limit so it might take a few ‘Replies’ following this post to get all the information published here.

    Actually… I’m going to start with ‘Replies’ right off the bat and then use as many as it takes to get the whole message thread published here.

    So without any further ado… here is the information post as a series of ‘Replies’…

    Reply

    • ** THE SHORT STORY

      On August 19, 2015… a primary source of real-time information for what was now happening in Twisp was a PUBLIC Okanogan County ( and Methow Valley ) ‘Topics of Interest’ Facebook page that had been started by someone named Elise Walker.

      As per Elise Walker’s own PUBLIC Facebook page, she is from Portland Oregon but now lives in Okanogan, Washington. She is a former 911 operator and an expert with radios.

      That Facebook page ( which would end up containing the real-time scanner transmissions on August 19, 2015 ) is here…

      Elise Walker’s Facebook page…
      Title: Okanogan County and Methow Valley Local Topics of Interest
      https://www.facebook.com/groups/944925525573021/

      Here is Elise Walker’s own description text for that Facebook page where she specifically says it will be the norm for this page to contain reports about scanner transmissions…

      ——————————————————————————-
      Description ( by Elise Walker )
      This group i started just for the local county topics on news, fires, and methow information of interests. so, here is where you will see what i posts on the scanner radio, or from the papers. welcome. and help update with more information. you may know. add your pictures if you like.
      ——————————————————————————-

      This Facebook group page is ‘searchable’.

      There is a ‘search’ box up on the top right of the page and if you enter the following phrase exactly as it is ( with no quote marks at the start or the end ) then the page will go ‘find’ and display the exact same original Facebook thread started by poster ‘Melody Long’ at exactly 12:27 PM PDT on August 19, 2015.That posting by Melody Long regarding the first word on the scanner about a fire near ‘Woods Canyon Road’ would become ‘ground zero’ that afternoon for all posts and scanner transcriptions related to the Twisp fire and is also reproduced in full ( in ‘text’ form ) in the ‘Replies’ that follow…

      grass fire heading towards a residence

      The ‘Melody Long’ thread will ( at first ) appear ‘collapsed’ and only show her original 12:27 PM PDT report from the scanner… but Facebook lists over 320 comments on this thread. If you end up expanding ALL the comments and subcomments on this one Facebook thread the total gets into the 450+ range.

      The exact phrase heard on the scanner was “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD” and it came at exactly 12:41 PM and was posted by a man named Joe Toldeo who, along with others, was listening to his scanner and posting to that Facebook thread in real time.

      The convention used by the (several) posters on this Facebook thread that day ( August 19, 2015 ) who were listening to their scanners is that if they were relaying something they just heard on the scanner they would type it in ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

      This “DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON ROAD” scanner traffic at 12:41 PM PDT came just 14 minutes after the fire was first being reported over the scanner at 12:27 PM PDT.

      The actual PRIMARY poster of real-time scanner radio messages throught the afternoon of August 19, 2015 was the woman who actually started this thread on Elise Walker’s Facebook page with her first report of scanner traffic about a fire on ‘Woods Canyon Road’ being reported over the scanner at exactly 12:27 PM PDT.

      Her name is Meldoy Walker ( aka Melody Lynn Miller, as per her own
      public Facebook page ).

      Like Elise Walker and Joe Toledo… she was also an expert with scanners and radios.

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

      Reply

    • ** THE LONG STORY

      Over the course of the afternoon ( and night ) of Wednesday, August 19, 2015, from the first posting at 2:27 PM by Melody Long of radio traffic that was now reporting a sudden ‘fire’at 37 Woods Canyon Road and then on through 11:15 PM that night when the last message for the day was posted to this particular thread…

      74 different people ‘chimed in’ on this “Woods Canyon Road Fire” Facebook thread using their published ( public ) Facebook names.

      In order to keep the ‘messages’ part down below as readable as possible, I have left the names off of the actual timestamped Facebook posts below and have, instead, just used an INDEX NUMBER ( 0 through 73 ) to indicate WHO was actually making that particular Facebook post.

      So the ‘Facebook message list’ below actually looks like this…

      | TIME ON AUGUST 19 | MESSAGE AUTHOR’S INDEX NUMBER | THE MESSAGE ITSELF

      All TIME values below are PM on August 19, 2015… and here are the actual NAMES that correspond to all the INDEX numbers used below…

      ————————————–
      000: Moderator
      001: Elise Walker
      002: Melody Long ( aka Melody Lynn Miller, as per her own public Facebook page )
      003: Joe Toledo
      004: Carolyn Edson
      005: Erika Stephens
      006: Tamara Trembley Szafas
      007: Jessie Yockey
      008: Jamie Jensen
      009: Barbara Vaughn Grubb
      010: Kathy Gunn-Bennett
      011: Rosa Hughes
      012: Sandra Lantrip
      013: Lily White
      014: Katy Williams
      015: Mary McGough
      016: Beth Gramkow
      017: Sally Jones Stomberg
      018: Jeff Heath
      019: Mike Shirley
      020: Christine Sanders
      021: Ronda Bradeen
      022: SuZan Knowlton
      023: Lexi Koch
      024: Terrye Freeman-Derosa
      025: Pam Browning Purtell
      026: Beverly Yucha
      027: Shane N Kim Cannon
      028: Gayle C Clemens
      029: Nicole Loucks
      030: Susan Gunn Patrick
      031: Sarah Jo
      032: Raechel Youngberg
      033: Cary Eller
      034: Lindsay Picolet
      035: Jenn Tate
      036: Sandy Brachtenbach
      037: Denise Davis
      038: MamaKeiki Hula
      039: Sierra-Jane Paul
      040: Janelle Delfino
      041: Donna Frost Stoothoff
      042: Linda Iribarren
      043: Darla Hussey
      044: Ronda Bradeen Darla
      045: Kathy Gunn-Bennett Darla
      046: Kathryn Joy Heim
      047: Rosalee de la Forêt
      048: Jessica Blethen
      049: Yvette Davis Cochran
      050: Leanna Jensen Mortland
      051: Yesenia Purtell Where
      052: Yesenia Purtell Ok
      053: Dewey Mcgowan
      054: Kaile Phillips
      055: Yesenia Purtell Does
      056: Eliška Žáková
      057: Tarrie Darwood
      058: Ed Menendez
      059: Dalene Bley
      060: Merrie Stewart
      061: Kate Posey
      062: Talitha Parsons
      063: Arlene Sutton
      064: Yesenia Purtell Twisp
      065: Nancy StClair
      066: Rachelle Kimbrell Weymuller
      067: Bob Sutherland
      068: Alexis Monetta
      069: Alisha McMillan
      070: Kate MacDonald
      071: Ananda Bajema
      072: Benjamin Drummond
      073: Rachel Price Strachan
      ———————————–

      ** SCANNER RADIO TRAFFIC APPEARS IN ‘ALL CAPS’ IN THE MESSAGE LIST

      Melody Long, Joe Toledo, Elise Walker ( and others ) were posting the scanner radio traffic they were hearing in REAL TIME… and the general convention they were using ( Especially 002 Melody Long ) was if they were just posting what they were hearing over the radio VERBATIM… then they use ALL CAPITAL LETTERS for that message.

      Here is an example where poster 002 ( Melody Long ) was reporting exactly what she was hearing on the scanner in REAL TIME and using ALL CAPITAL LETTERS to report what she was hearing.

      At 5:07 PM she heard on the radio that Firefighters were ‘Hunkering Down’ in a Driveway calling for help. This appears to have led to an IMMEDIATE attempt to drop retardant on them up there on “Woods Canyon Road”.

      At 5:11 Melody Long reports ( verbatim ) someone saying over the radio that they “CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE” ( Perhaps the VLAT pilot him/herself speaking on the channel at that point? ).

      But the VLAT was already ‘on approach’ and was, apparently, going to do the emergency retardant drop anyway. At 5:13 Melody Long reports verbatim radio traffic saying “AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT”.

      “HOT” meaning… no practice run… and on FAST approach.

      ———————————————————————————
      |05:07|002|FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
      |05:08|049|Praying….
      |05:09|028|wrap them in your prayers, keep them safe!
      |05:19|016|Prayers
      |05:07|009|Jesus please keep them safe!
      |05:09|008|Praying.
      |05:09|002|MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
      |05:11|002|CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
      |05:12|050|Omg pray pray pray!!
      |05:12|002|DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
      |05:13|016|Prayers
      |05:13|016|My daughter is out
      |05:13|002|AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
      ———————————————————————————

      SIDENOTE: There is actually a public VIDEO of what appears to be this exact same EMERGENCY retardant drop by a VLAT onto the trapped firefighters up on Woods Canyon Road. I will post a link to that PUBLIC video in a Followup message but let me finish this ‘Facebook thread dump’ first.

      A local man ( and his nephew ) had come to the “Twisp River Road” to help friends set up their sprinkler systems once the proximity of the fire to homes on “Twisp River Road” became general knowledge.

      Earlier that afternoon ( and before the entrapment or this emergency drop ) they were on the back deck of a house that was just a few hundred yards east of where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road. It was when the first helicopters had arrived that day and the Uncle shot his own iPhone video of one of the choppers dipping from the Twisp River and then flying just a short distance over to the Woods Canyon Road area to make drops.

      This was when the wind was still blowing to the WEST and before it shifted to the NORTH / NORTHEAST and caused the entrapment(s). In the video shot by the Uncle very close to Woods Canyon Road, you can SEE up to 4 or 5 Engines on the road right there where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road. Apparently, at the time this first video was taken, none of them had attempted to head up Woods Canyon Road yet. A little later this man and his nephew had moved about 1/4 mile EAST and were helping another resident set up sprinklers at another residence on the south side of the Twisp River Road.

      THAT is when the man’s NEPHEW shot his OWN video of a VLAT tanker approaching
      Woods Canyon Road for a drop. The TIME of this video shot by the nephew corresponds to this Facebook ‘radio traffic’ and the nephew appears to have caught this very same EMERGENCY VLAT DROP in his video.

      The wind had obviously shifted drastically since his uncle shot the first video and the fire had already overtaken the Woods Canyon Road area. The video now being shot by the nephew now shows a VLAT coming in “HOT” ( as in, very FAST and LOW ) and it then flies INTO the smoke over Woods Canyon Road and drops a load of retardant right INTO The middle of the smoke right about where one of the driveways/houses was located.

      It did NOT look like a ‘normal’, directed retardant drop and may very well have been this exact same EMERGENCY VLAT DROP being described in the Facebook thread. I will post links too BOTH of these PUBLIC videos taken that afternoon on Twisp River Road as ‘Replies’ down below following this ‘thread dump’.

      The next ‘Reply’ begins the ‘dump’ of the entire Facebook thread…

      Reply

      • Thanks for this, WTKTT!

        I’m ATM wondering if I should just try to join the group in order to see things, or just wait until you post the links.

        Reply

        • Wait for it. I really am ‘dumping’ the entire Facebook thread right now… but WordPress keeps rejecting the ‘parts’ of it as being ‘too long’ so I am having to create even more ‘parts’ than I thought. Standby.

          Reply

            • The dump is finished. See series of ‘9’ Replies below.

              I am currently trying to shorten that thread and eliminate all the “Oh Gods” and “Prayers please” and “Can you set up my sprinklers?” stuff and just leave posts directly related to fire situation and scanner traffic…

              …but I wanted to dump all 454 messages at least once… for the sake of ‘posterity’, I guess… or in case that original Facebook thread mysteriously ‘vanishes’, or something.

              Some very interesting stuff in that thread dump.

              It shows that as early as 12:52 PM PDT, just 25 minutes after the fire was first reported ( at 12:27 PM PDT ), they had already called for a ‘fire investigator’ to come to the scene to determine what might have CAUSED it.

              So this one was ‘suspicious’ right from the get-go.

              Reply

              • Gotcha.

                The “noise to signal” ratio in all that is pretty high, but I understand your desire to archive it first.

                I’m really interested in what you perceive to be the “signal,” or “signals.”

                Lots of chaos, for sure. Also interesting is the use of this Facebook group for organizing and connecting in the midst of all that chaos.

                I started out “watching” wildfires on the Internet in the early 2000s, “watching” how communities used the Internet to do just that–Connect and Organize. Particularly regarding the Cerro Grande Fire in 2000 and the Rodeo-Chedeski Fire in 2002 (as the smoke from it was filling my back yard).

                I even started writing a novel (which I never completed) about people (all kinds of people in my past life who I could never imagine inviting to a party together because some of them would have hated each other) finding themselves in the midst of the wildfire that I think will eventually happen in the “East Mountains,” the East side of the Sandias.

                “Watching” the Cerro Grande Fire on the Internet was particularly interesting, given that most of the folks in Los Alamos are super-high techies and the most highly educated community in the US. They RAPIDLY took to the Internet and MASSIVELY organized themselves and communicated among themselves and to the outside world what was going on. It was awesome. And that was 15 years ago.

                It still seems kind of random. This Facebook Group in/around Twisp was pretty impressive. But it’s still been kind of disheartening to me that I haven’t found much of any (at least as of this last weekend) critical conversation going on anywhere but here as to what led to that burnover.

                Maybe that’s related to what Sitta wrote.

                When the Slide Fire happened in Sedona last year in May, Tony Sciacca’s team (I know I know I know I shouldn’t “idolize” him but I really do respect him) immediately set up a Facebook page and did a TON of educating everybody about what was happening as it was happening. It was INCREDIBLY helpful for everybody in the area and everybody else who cared about it (including me).

                I’ve seen various videos via YouTube regarding how to use the Internet and Social Media for Wildfire Incident Management Teams. But I still haven’t seen a lot of it actually happening all that much.

                As much as I agree with your negative evaluation of Bill Gabbert’s softball interview with Brendan, I do commend and respect him for his use of Internet Social Media to relentlessly and tirelessly communicate and educate about what is happening on a daily basis regarding Wildfires and Wildfire Aviation. I am constantly re-tweeting his Twitter posts. He absolutely RULES on this platform.

                Reply

      • ** IMPORTANT – CORRECTION FOR THE POST ABOVE

        The TIMES showing in the ‘excerpt’ from the Facebook thread I posted in the message above are NOT CORRECT.

        They are two hours AHEAD of time.

        The TIMES for this same exact “AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT”
        moment from from August 19, 2015 in Twisp are CORRECT in the full dump of the Facebook thread below and are true PDT time.

        So that ‘insert’ I used in the message above SHOULD have looked like this, with the first scanner message about the FFs Hunkering Down in a driveway appearing with a TIME of exactly 3:07 PM PDT…

        And then just 6 minutes later ( at 3:13 PM PDT ) the “AIR TANKER” was “COMING IN HOT”…

        ————————————————————————-
        |03:07|002|FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
        |03:08|049|Praying….
        |03:09|028|wrap them in your prayers, keep them safe!
        |03:07|009|Jesus please keep them safe!
        |03:09|008|Praying.
        |03:09|002|MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
        |03:11|002|CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
        |03:12|050|Omg pray pray pray!!
        |03:12|002|DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
        |03:13|016|Prayers
        |03:13|016|My daughter is out
        |03:13|002|AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
        —————————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Actually… pretty much all the ‘times’ mentioned in that post just above are two hours ahead of the ACTUAL time that day.

          Melody Long first posted about scanner traffic reporting the fire at ‘Woods Canyon Road” at 12:27 PM PDT… not 2:27.

          Sorry about that. The times in the actual full ‘thread dump’ below ARE accurate and HAVE been adjusted to reflect Pacific Daylight Time.

          Reply

    • ** THE ENTIRE FACEBOOK THREAD – PART 1

      And here is the entire Facebook ‘thread’ reformatted to help make it easier to read here on this forum with the ‘WordPress’ sofware being used here.

      In other words… all the usual Facebook HTML has been removed and only the actual TEXT of what people were posting ( plus the TIME they posted it ) is shown.

      The top level message that kicked off this day-long thread was first posted by Melody Long, who was listening to her scanner and posting what she was hearing in REAL TIME to Facebook.

      At exactly 12:27 PM PDT on August 19, 2015… Melody Long heard the first radio traffic mentioning a ‘sudden’ ( new ) fire at “37 Woods Canyon Road” and she immediately posted to Facebook about it. All other messages ( for the rest of the day ) related to this “Woods Canyon Road” thread that Melody Long started at 12:27 PM PDT were then posted as ‘Replies’ to this original 12:27 PM PDT message.

      3 minutes after that… another Facebook poster who was ALSO listening to his own radio scanner that day and posting things in REAL TIME ( Joe Toledo ) posted a ‘Google Maps’ screen snapshot right under Melody’s message showing everyone exactly where “37 Woods Canyon Road” was. It was basically that FIRST HOUSE that you would encounter as you headed up Woods Canyon Road ( off of Twisp River Road ) and it was just off one of those ‘switchbacks’ in the road as you ascended initial steep part of Woods Canyon Road.

      SOME ACRONYMS and PHRASES used in the following Facebook conversation…
      ———————————————–
      TWR = Twisp River Road
      DNR = Department of Natural Resources
      TONE or TONING = Radio traffic that is preceded by a loud TONE to alert listeners it is important traffic. Used by local volunteer fire departments to alert their people that they need to respond to a fire somewhere.
      ———————————————–

      NOTE: All TIMES shown are PM, Pacific Daylight Time (PDT), August 19, 2015.

      The START of the entire Facebook thread…
      ================================================================================
      |12:27|002|37 woods canyon road, Twisp. grass fire heading towards a residence, twisp winthrop, plus toning out mazama Carlton fire dept. and saying contact DNR And Forest Service too…..
      |12:30|003|Joe Toledo posted a Google Maps satellite photo showing exact address 37 Woods Canyon Road.
      |12:30|002|THANK YOU Joe Toledo!
      |12:32|003|Thats twisp river rd valley people
      |12:32|003|Couple acre fire actively moving towards residence
      |12:33|002|RE Toning!
      |12:35|004|Damn it. How far up Twisp River? I am in Wenatchee. I live on poorman creek.
      |12:37|005|Woods Canyon Rd, Carolyn.
      |12:37|006|Just past elbow coulee
      |12:36|007|Woods cannon
      |12:36|003|Evac levels requested level 3 and advisedmd to notify fire management, don’t think they are going to be able to save this house
      |12:36|006|SHIT!!!!
      |12:36|007|Damn. My dad lives up there
      |12:37|004|I see from the map now. Thanks Joe. They NEED to keep this out of the TR drainage!
      |12:37|008|Linda Dunn Susie Dunn how close is this?
      |12:39|002|2 acres in size moving fast. sending dnr and a rotor to help. starting to threatening houses doing evac percautions
      |12:39|007|Shit. How far up twisp river??
      |12:39|009|I don’t really like this, but I like that we have this info…
      |12:39|002|it isat the junction of elbow coluee, sending range dozer too
      |12:40|002|Ronda Bradeen, may need evac help
      |12:41|003|DO NOT PROCEED UP WOODS CANYON RD
      |12:42|002|ROTOR En route
      |12:42|010|Crap Scott is up poorman.
      |12:42|010|Susan
      |12:44|002|HERE COMES THE DNR CALVERY WHOO HOO!
      |12:44|003|Resources en route, attempting to get air support
      |12:45|009|Thank You Jesus!
      |12:46|008|Stay safe Barbara and family.
      |12:47|009|we are not up Twisp River, but have many many friends up thre. We are in Winthrop wringing our hands in anxiety…
      |12:48|008|I completely understand. So much going on, trying to keep up is like trying to nail jello to a tree.
      |12:49|011|That is a great way of putting it.
      |12:45|012|Praying
      |12:45|013|Any evacuations?
      |12:50|003|Lily, Level 3 for Twisp river rd
      |12:47|002|RE TONE MAZAMA FIRE
      |12:49|009|NOOOOOOO
      |12:50|002|3 dozers and 3 water tenders reporting to this fire too..
      |12:52|010|Joe Toledo do you know where the evacuation starts, how close to Twisp?
      |12:52|002|investigator is a hr and 15 min ETA to get there to fire
      |12:53|003|Twr and elbow coulee
      |12:54|002|20 homes threatened
      |12:56|009|omg
      |01:00|014|Are you hearing that over the scanner? Good info to know along with info like this smile emoticon thanks!
      |12:54|003|Twisp river rd and woods canyon Joe Toledo’s photo.
      |12:56|015|What is the technical definition of being threatened? How close is the fire?
      |12:56|016|My daughter is at 41 poor man where is it to.thst
      |12:58|017|5 miles away. h-t-t-p-s-:-//www.google.com/…/data=!3m1!4b1!4m13!4m12!1m5…41 Poorman Creek Rd, Twisp, WA 98856 to Woods Canyon Rd, Twisp, WA 98856 google.com
      |01:18|016|A fire fighter told her 2 miles it’s moving fast I pray it’s 5

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

      Reply

    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 2

      |12:57|016|I wax talking to her she got cut off
      |12:57|002|beth above poor man by a few miles
      |12:58|018|If this takes off it’ll head right to Sun Mountain…
      |01:00|009|Beth Gramkow, do you want me to go get her? I can bring her to you?
      |12:59|002|just saying they are threatened Mary McGough
      |01:00|016|Barbara Vaughn Grub thanks she can get out . But thanks
      |01:00|015|Understood. It must be a matter of prediction under current conditions and a factor in allocating resources. Thank you.
      |01:00|002|it is in a bad area for crews to get in safely, need that rotor to start protecting the houses. can’t get into minor creek to dangerous, charging up the hill
      |01:01|002|ordering a air attack too
      |01:02|007|No eta on air. Still trying to talk to them.
      |01:02|016|Cell phone must be down
      |01:03|002|damn, eta 45 mins,
      |01:07|019|USFS has ordered 3 tenders and 3 dozers, trying to get air support, 20 structures threatened, FD#6 can’t get trucks up Woods Canyon Rd due to safety/egress concerns, 2 acres about 30 minutes ago.
      |01:04|002|need to close twisp river road
      |01:05|002|hearing, on closing roads. but opinion on evac. have 20 houses in jepaordy
      |01:06|020|Ronda Bradeen… It’s what is going over the scanner.
      |01:04|009|where will they all go?
      |01:05|002|sorry i am stuck on this post, can’t go look at other requests. propane tanks near residences too
      |01:05|021|They can go out via Poorman or Buttermilk via Black Pine Lake
      |01:05|010|Thanks Melody Long
      |01:05|009|forgot sbout black pine lake…whew
      |01:06|003|Twisp pd is tryin to determine if TWR is closed
      |01:07|010|Ronda Bradeen would you call Carol and Harry and let them know about this fire. When this wind shifts and comes from the north or so….you know. My cell isn’t working where I am at. Thanks
      |01:11|021|no answer
      |01:12|021|Left a message
      |01:18|010|Thank you
      |01:08|016|My daughter just called she can see flames from her place it’s moving fast
      |01:08|016|She was told 2 miles from her place
      |01:09|016|That’s what she was told my a fire fighter
      |01:10|022|oh please all be safe, this is so blasted scary
      |01:10|023|Mike Lui says they are gonna over resource it and fight it hard.
      |01:11|016|I know she has the kids out going back to get some stuff if she can
      |01:11|024|The 5 truck crew just went down gold creek . Maybe called out on this
      |01:12|002|saying maybe human caused, got two rotors two tankers heading that way
      |01:12|025|Thanks for everyone’s updates! Prayers for everyone to be safe!
      |01:17|026|Hey pam is everything ok there I just read the blog I’m at central Washington hospital waiting to have my thyroid scan
      |01:20|025|Hey Bev – new fire up twisp river by elbow coulee – sounds like all that can be called on it are going. Pretty scary – wind is blowing – very smokey here Bev – would be hard for you to breathe. Keep reading the posts.
      |01:32|026|Hi pam, I’m worried I won’t be home till in the morning can someone turn my sprinklers on for a little while
      |02:15|025|in town is ok right now – fire headed in opposite direction it looks like. i will be at work but maybe renada?
      |02:15|026|Thanks keep me posted
      |01:13|027|How close to Newby Ck. is that ?
      |01:51|028|a few miles…
      |01:13|024|Ya trying to figure out why would start there
      |01:13|016|When my daughter called me lots of sirens in background
      |01:13|029|google map it, its pretty close
      |01:13|002|sheriff en route to prepare to evacuation
      |01:14|016|Prayers
      |01:16|009|if i could like this 5 million times i would
      |01:17|016|Thank you
      |01:14|003|Fd6 advises need state patrol?
      |01:15|002|i haven’t heard WSP On this yet
      |01:15|003|Joe Toledo’s photo.
      |01:16|002|Twisp PD, Sheriff
      |01:16|003|TWR SHUT DOWN
      |01:16|003|Evac out only
      |01:17|024|Why dont they tanker mcfarland . Get as many as possible dip the Columbia and put them out .
      |01:58|028|tis is not related to the McFarland Creek Fire
      |01:19|009|I am in tears…i just cant find my big girl panties today at all. I think they burnt up…
      |01:23|016|Me eaither I am in Wenatchee I can’t do this another year. My daughter needs to.move
      |01:19|026|I live on twisp ave I’m at central Washington hospital waiting to have a thyroid scan is my street ok,
      |01:41|002|i don’t know
      |01:59|028|Beverly town is fine, and if you give me your address I’ll go turn your water on for you. PM me please.
      |01:19|003|City is currently ok
      |01:20|002|twisp town is fine. it is up twisp river at elbow coulee
      |01:20|016|And poor man Creek Road
      |01:22|002|one rotor on scene now
      |01:23|002|doing unified command now, with all fire crews
      |01:23|027|How big is it
      |01:24|002|waiting for a up date. at first call was 2 acers and growing
      |01:25|027|Have friends up Newby, are they endanger ?
      |01:28|010|Call them, according to map fire isn’t that far.
      |01:29|027|We’re trying,
      |01:42|027|Their getting out
      |01:56|010|Thank god!
      |02:01|028|phones may be down, wind is blowing east by NE ocassionally, Newby should be fine for now.
      |01:26|030|Thank you Melody for letting people know that twisp is ok. Last thing we need is a bunch of rumors flying around that twisp is burning.
      |01:26|002|20 plus acers now!
      |01:28|003|Prepping my go bag, advise all simply as a precaution to get one ready. I live in Twin lakes
      |01:28|024|In myers creek area i just heard on radio
      |01:29|009|Omg no. People please please get out!
      |01:29|016|Where is that at
      |02:03|028|south side of Twisp River Rd
      |01:29|031|Picklesimer Do you know which way it is moving?
      |01:31|002|going up canyon, ordering strike team now too
      |01:30|024|No root said tankers were on the way .
      |01:31|008|Is it moving towards Winthrop area?
      |01:31|027|Don’t like that !!
      |01:32|002|if goes futher up from where it is. it would be heading towards sun mountain lodge that direction
      |01:32|022|SHit Melo, are the guys ok??
      |01:33|002|yes, we are okay in town
      |01:33|032|thanks Melody Long for the updates
      |01:33|033|How many miles is 37 Woods Canyon Rd up Twisp River Rd.
      |01:35|019|5.75 miles
      |01:45|033|Thanks
      |01:33|022|oh thank God, I saw Sun Mtn and worried
      |01:34|012|Praying for you Melody and neighbors
      |01:34|026|Everyone be safe!!

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    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 3

      |01:35|002|Cary Eller not sure can’t google it right now, sitting on scanner and posting
      |02:05|028|burning towards Newby then… not going up towards Piney Forest/SunMt!
      |01:36|002|heli tanker plus a fixed winged ordered now
      |01:36|024|Heard a plane go that direction . Might be spotter . Didnt sound loud enough for tanker .
      |01:37|002|emergency management on the line with ok. dispatch now
      |01:38|034|Air support over head.
      |01:39|003|Carrie elder
      |01:40|035|Hearing air support heading over Libby Creek towards Twisp River Rd.
      |01:41|004|Thank God
      |01:41|003|Joe Toledo’s photo.
      |01:41|036|Prayers
      |01:43|010|Beverly Yucha needs someone to turn on her sprinklers, she’s on Twisp ave in Twisp. Can anyone help?
      |02:06|028|pm me her address will run in and do it i’m in town..
      |01:44|007|Air support on their way.
      |01:44|006|Can’t get here Fast enough!
      |01:45|037|Oh no,,, not again frown emoticon
      |01:45|002|Tamara Trembley Szafas can you help Beverly Yucha turn on her sprinklers twisp ave..
      |01:46|006|Probably in about an hour.
      |01:46|027|Is it heading away from Newby Creek area ??
      |02:20|028|it seems to be headed West
      |01:47|002|power going to be shut off heads up!
      |01:47|027|Is it still Evac 3 up Twisp River ?
      |02:20|028|yes
      |02:23|028|for the Woods Road and immediate area, but be prepared
      |02:24|027|I think their out, wife is in Wenatchee and texting me for updates
      |01:48|002|if mine goes down i will use my cell to update
      |01:48|007|No its not. I just got off phonr the pud. Twisp river is roa.
      |01:48|006|Shit, power off means no well water!!
      |02:17|038|Stacy Weigle Fill the bathtub if you still can!
      |01:49|039|Thanks for the heads up!!
      |01:49|002|they just said need to tun off power, maybe the co op
      |01:49|006|I’m on Twisp River Melody Long. Maybe Bev could find someone else to do spriklers,,, I’m kinda freakin out
      |02:24|028|I can do it, just need a address
      |01:49|002|ask michelle randolph maybe?
      |01:50|006|It is co-op if it’s on North side of Twisp River
      |01:52|007|Ok. I just got off the phone with pud. Twisp river is co-op
      |02:09|028|so all the co-op cutomers are going down?
      |02:11|007|Idk. I talk to pud.
      |01:50|007|And she said they are not truning the power off.
      |01:53|027|Which direction is it going please ???
      |02:10|028|going up the Twisp River drainage it sounds like, Meyers Creek is just before Newby Creek
      |01:53|010|If I had a air conditioned car I would. Sorry. There’s got to be someone right in Twisp who’s willing to help.
      |01:53|040|Melody Long could you please summarize for those just joining, or start new post
      |01:53|010|No new post please.
      |01:54|021|any detail on the evac area?
      |01:57|002|20 plus acre fire up twisp iver road by elbow coulee junction, 20 houses threatened, and power lines in area being turned off, grass fire, level 3 evacs now in the area, helicopters and air tankers going to be helping to put fire out, DNR, ALL district 6 crews on scene.
      |01:59|003|Internet is getting sporadic for me at Twin Lakes
      |02:00|003|Ronda Bradeen last I heard fd6 was advising TWR and all rds off it
      |02:00|041|I need to know if Twisp River Rd. Is closed? I have friends who live farther up and are in Wenatchee. They need to know so they can get home to get their horse.
      |02:35|030|It is open up to elbow coulee, as of 15 min ago
      |02:01|003|TWR is Closed. Only evac out currently
      |02:02|014|Anyone know where is the closure located on Twisp river rd? Might be helpful to people…
      |02:03|006|No Traffic going up Twisp River rd,,, only outgoing evac traffic,,, I think
      |02:03|016|Yes any up poor man Creek
      |02:03|010|Donna Frost Stoot-hoff if they are past Elbow Coulee it is closed for sure. Have them call neighbors to get the horses out.
      |02:03|014|So they have it closed by ncnb bank in Twisp? Or??…
      |02:04|006|Yes I think so. No Going Up unless you live there
      |02:04|002|Ronda Bradeen ok emergency management has been in contact all i know, twisp river road closed, at what part i do not know
      |02:05|012|Any info about the fire near Riverside?
      |02:06|002|Sandra Lantrip, not on this post no
      |02:07|028|power off to Town?

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    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 4

      |02:07|042|Firefighter Eagle Baire is coming down Twisp River from his Mom/s home. He said he would let us know the facts, and how to help~
      |02:07|002|no, not in twisp, it is co op power shiut down
      |02:08|010|Thank you Linda Iribarren, please post it in this post.
      |02:11|030|I just drove up there. The fire is just WEST of Elbow Coulee road. Road is closed at the intersection there. Slight wind blowing from the east, so moving fire up the hill and westward. There are two helicopters on it. As of right now, Winthrop and Twisp are FINE!!
      |02:13|010|Did you get pics?
      |02:14|010|Did you see Scott anywhere? He told me he was coming off Twisp river an hr ago and I can’t get ahold of him since.
      |02:14|030|A couple of the choppers and smoke as that is all I could see. There is a little rise that blocks most of the view.
      |02:15|030|He was pulling out of the mini mart heading south
      |02:15|010|K thanks
      |02:11|002|Linda Iribarren, okanogan enmergecy management is already working with the county and fire crews
      |02:17|002|looking for dozer bosses, district 6 going to handle the dozer part
      |02:17|021|Just talked to OK Em Services, evac is for Woods Canyon and immediately around the intersection of Twisp River Rd and Woods Canyon. No additional mandatory evac called at this time but everyone needs to BE READY TO GO that is in proximity. Elbow Coolie, Poorman etc.
      |02:19|043|You got a different person I did … she thought it was a fire in town with no closures. unsure emoticon
      |02:20|021|Egods…. and they have nothing on their FB page…
      |02:21|043|The original evac is there…
      |02:20|043|Can someone who has eyes on please confirm for me at what location Twisp River Road is closed? I want to post on the paper’s website and emergency management doesn’t have that information yet.
      |02:21|044|see above post by Susan Gunn Patrick
      |02:21|043|Got it, thanks.
      |02:21|045|Hussey please see Susan Gunn Patrick comment!
      |02:25|043|Thanks. I was AFK helping someone move firewood away from their house and things went a little crazy. Trying to catch up.
      |02:22|027|To many conflicting reports, getting confused
      |02:26|028|The fire is just WEST of Elbow Coulee road. Road is closed at the intersection there. Slight wind blowing from the east, so moving fire up the hill and westward. There are two helicopters on it. As of right now, Winthrop and Twisp are FINE!! and “Just talked to OK Em Services, evac is for Woods Canyon and immediately around the intersection of Twisp River Rd and Woods Canyon. No additional mandatory evac called at this time but everyone needs to BE READY TO GO that is in proximity. Elbow Coolie, Poorman etc.”
      |02:34|027|So Newby isn’t Evac 3
      |02:39|028|but I would have a plan, it was moving West.
      |02:24|002|naming the long list of crews they have as a united fire resources,
      |02:25|010|The road is closed at Elbow Coulee. My sister just drove up there, obviously it is not closed in Twisp.
      |02:30|002|this thread is what i am posting on in the begining, haven’t changed posts
      |02:31|002|If others are posting about this then i am not seeing, been on this one from begining of the call
      |02:35|016|Just lost cell phones . I have a question a man named Paul and his wife Heather live at 41 poor man Creek Road he works at nappa any one know his last name or phone number
      |02:36|010|Did you try calling Napa?
      |02:37|016|No I will he has a landline lives in the same place as my daughter
      |02:40|015|Is it Heather Sweet? I Googled the address. Who Lives at 41 Poorman Creek Road, Twisp, WA
      |03:04|016|Thank you that’s it I got the number
      |02:36|010|Melody… I think she is talking about road closure at least I assume. We have one person saying Twisp river Rd but not saying from what starting point. So my sister drove up Twisp river and it is closed at Elbow Coulee.
      |02:36|030|Twisp river road is closed at elbow coulee! I was just up there
      |02:37|002|Beth Gramkow no sorry
      |02:39|002|50 plus acres, 20 structures immediately threatened, if don’t get air attack possible 100 homes threatened. heading into twisp drainage
      |02:42|004|They can’t let it get in the drainage !
      |02:44|002|not quite in drainage yet, but getting close
      |02:41|024|Root said they were dipping from some lake up there.
      |02:44|030|Looked to me like they were dipping in the river, when I was there 20 min ago
      |02:45|028|Patterson Lake or there is a little lake up there too… not much water in the Twisp
      |03:00|030|No, not much water, but they were not flying far… just across the road, so I’m guessing thats the river.
      |02:41|028|and the wind is picking up again…. cmon AIR SUPPORT!
      |02:41|027|I was getting confused about the Evacs , sorry, so much info, love it, I just need to sort it better
      |02:41|002|they need that fixed winged air craft!
      |02:42|025|I believe there is air support
      |02:42|002|rotors yes!
      |02:43|030|Yes, there are two helicopters on the scene
      |02:44|025|ok thank you! praying they get there soon.
      |02:48|030|They are on it. Imagine they were there shortly after it was reported.

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    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 5

      |02:48|046|What’s the status for elbow Cooley? What is status for pine forest?
      |02:49|047|We evacuated from Newby Creek. Since then I’ve heard Twisp River Road is now closed but not sure where. Anyone know?
      |02:50|002|WIND CHANGED, abandoning notifacations west, starting evac notifacations east on the area
      |02:50|006|SHIT!!!!
      |02:51|002|all residents on pr near twisp river road evac immediately. automated call going to be sent
      |02:52|002|EVACUATE NOW!! ALL ON TWISP RIVER ROAD!!!
      |02:52|006|WHAT??????
      |02:52|015|Wow! That was fast. Why not just evacuate everyone?
      |02:53|009|i have no words get out!!!!!!!!!!!
      |02:53|002|THEY JUST SAID OK ER MANAGEMENT AUTOMATED TEXT CALL GOING OUT. ALL ON OR NEAR TWISP RIVER ROAD EVACUATE NOW, HEADING TO PINE FOREST AREA TO NOTIFY!
      |02:54|030|Melody, have winds changed? It was blowing westward when I drove up there. Is the evac in order for homes to the east of coulee?
      |02:55|010|She just said all of Twisp river.
      |02:57|030|I know that, but like I said, the winds were going westward so was just confirming it was the entire Twisp river road from town up. Gregg and Dianne live by Spokane grade and I want to help them if its necessary
      |02:59|028|Susan let me know if Gregg and Dianne need help… old freinds
      |02:55|002|NOTIFYING PINE FOREST NOW
      |02:55|015|reposting MelodyLong’s post from 4 minutes ago: WIND CHANGED, abandoning notifacations west, starting evac notifacations east on the area
      |02:56|002|ENTRAPMENT ON THE EAST FLANK ORDER LIFE FLIGHT
      |03:03|028|oh please protect our people
      |02:56|002|6 MILES UP BURN VICTIM AERO METHOW CALLED
      |02:57|048|At the request of the County, Okanogan County Electric Coop. has cut power up the Twisp River Feeder as a precautionary move. This is the only outage we have going on or that we are anticipating at this time. – From: Jessica (OCEC Customer Service Rep.)
      |02:57|015|frown emoticon
      |02:58|002|CLOSING ELBOW COLUEE AT TWISP RIVER ROAD. GOING TO JUMP THAT SECTION
      |02:58|002|FIRE MOVING EAST NORTH EAST DIRECTION OVER ELBOW COULEE.
      |02:59|002|ONE ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE
      |03:01|036|Crap
      |03:00|028|pick him up and move him out! wink emoticon
      |03:01|002|EVERYONE LEAVE TWISP RIVER AND ELBOW COULEE AND PINE FOREST DEVELOPMENT. MUILITPLE FIRE FIGHTERS ENTRAPMENT, WOODS CANYON AND ELBOW COULEE
      |03:06|010|Did anyone get your sprinklers on? Scott and I are heading to town. What’s your address if you want us to turn them on?
      |03:20|026|My address is 326 twisp ave it’s a duplex, the front yard. Sprinkler is set up pardon the mess the backyard isn’t. I’m in the middle of redoing it, the sprinkler is in the front yard an the hose is over the dog house in the back, I’m so very grateful! Thanks !
      |03:25|026|Kathy oops I forgot the front yard has a turn on valve in the house! So I’m not sure what to do. About that I had a brain fart
      |03:04|002|HAVING MEDSTAR ON STANDBY
      |03:06|008|What’s the evacuation status of surrounding areas such as ; sun mountain, twin lakes etc.
      |03:09|010|She will post as soon as she hears anything.
      |03:10|008|I understand. So chaotic and intense. Wow.
      |03:10|010|I hate this!
      |03:14|043|There is no evac at this point for those locations, but if the fire crosses Elbow Coulee, Sun Mountain will be cut off.
      |03:07|002|FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
      |03:08|049|Praying….
      |03:09|028|wrap them in your prayers, keep them safe!
      |03:19|016|Prayers

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    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 6

      |03:07|009|Jesus please keep them safe!
      |03:09|008|Praying.
      |03:09|002|MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
      |03:11|002|CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
      |03:12|050|Omg pray pray pray!!
      |03:12|002|DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
      |03:13|016|Prayers
      |03:13|016|My daughter is out
      |03:13|002|AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
      |03:14|004|Hurry
      |03:14|041|Praying for everyone.
      |03:14|028|saw a big dozer fly by about 15-20 minutes ago
      |03:15|002|ELBOW COULEE TWISP RIVER ROAD AERO METHOW CALLED FOR ENTRAPMENT
      |03:17|002|I GOT TOP GO GET MY KID CONTINUE LEVEL 2 EVES FOR SIGNAL HILL AND TWIN LAKES BE BACK. Elise Walker take over pease
      |03:18|027|From Eastside Rd – Shane N-Kim Cannon’s photo.
      |03:20|012|Praying for you Melody stay safe
      |03:20|034|BIG BIG PLANE ON THE WAY!!!
      |03:21|009|I am on eastside road and i cant see anything!!!!
      |03:22|051|is east side road? Is twin lakes on level 2 evac?
      |03:24|042|Twin Lakes Level 2 is what Melody said before she had to leave~
      |03:26|028|yes get packed! be alert!
      |03:23|039|Is hoot and hollar on evac?
      |03:28|028|would stay alert, turn on water
      |03:24|052|well I’m right next to twin lakes up horizon flats, should I evacuate?
      |03:24|043|Yes.
      |03:25|043|That’s just my personal opinion. That area is not under an evacuation order at this time.
      |03:27|028|I would pack, point car in out position and keep alert! turn off gas, turn on sprinklers and PRAY
      |03:24|034|Don’t know where it was heading. Only view from overhead Winthrop.
      |03:25|030|Good rule of thumb, if you don’t feel safe, evacuate
      |03:26|053|Amen!
      |03:29|054|just saw the big plane coming through!
      |03:31|004|Yes
      |03:34|013|Kaile can you keep me updated? Worried about my horses and Max. Mihayla is trying to keep me updated but there isn’t good service there
      |03:35|054|yes I will! I don’t think its anywhere near them. you can txt me if you want 360-301-4568
      |03:36|013|Thank you!
      |03:31|055|anyone if fire is near twisp city limits? My mother in law lives after the bank up twisp river rd and need to know if I need to get her dog out
      |03:34|028|if it gets that close to town we are all going to need to leave…
      |03:31|056|From sun mountain Eliška Žáková’s photo.
      |03:32|028|might want to check out…
      |03:37|021|if it jumps Elbow Coolie they will be cut off, only other way down would be the FS rd that runs into Woods Rd for crying out loud!
      |03:48|056|Eliška Žáková’s photo.
      |03:31|057|Its a big jet flying over yaya
      |03:31|058|scanner frequency 159.3150.
      |03:40|059|Ed, Are you hearing updates? Melody had to leave and Elize has her hands very full!!
      |03:44|058|I’m listening, but haven’t been posting. I’ll post on this thread. Sounds like they had another injury.
      |03:45|059|Thank you so much.
      |03:33|006|Got a call from EM They said West and North Of Twisp river evac.
      |03:33|017|just got the alert on my phone for the pre-evac.
      |03:33|006|West and North of fire right?
      |03:34|028|planes… I hear planes but no BIG one yet…
      |03:35|006|Have you Seen This PLUME??? OMG
      |03:36|017|Just saw a big plane overhead heading up TWR.
      |03:37|039|Sierra-Jane Paul’s photo.
      |03:38|050|YAY!
      |03:39|036|Help them Lord!
      |03:41|017|just flew over my house heading east.
      |03:43|060|Sobbing
      |03:40|061|Huge jet just went over twisp town.

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    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 7

      |03:43|016|A thing came across a phone saying twisp is on lv 3 can anyone confirm
      |03:49|017|Got the same message, Beth.
      |03:50|012|The town?
      |03:52|016|Yes a friend where my daughter is at it came across for the town.of twisp. Confused
      |03:53|016|It was a alert I asked my daughter what did it say she said it said the town.of twisp on lv 3 evacuat
      |03:53|058|I’m on Finley Canyon Rd and haven’t received notification here yet
      |03:54|016|Maybe a mistake on the emergency system
      |03:49|058|Sounds like they’re about to make a big tanker water drop according to the scanner
      |03:53|016|Good
      |03:54|016|My 10 year old granddaughter is freaking out
      |03:55|058|If you’re in Twisp, it’s Level 3. Get out.
      |03:55|062|Twisp is Level 3 evac. Go now.
      |03:57|058|Bravo coming in from coeur d’alene to help
      |03:59|058|Fire crossed Elbow coulee for sure.. they are considering level 3 for Winthrop. They lost sight of the fire.
      |04:01|059|Thanks Ed, Did you see my question? Which way should we go?
      |04:02|058|Not to Winthrop, Omak seems to be the safest place but I haven’t heard that from anyone official
      |04:15|021|OK Emergency services is saying Omak or Pateros
      |03:59|059|Melody… folks need a route to evac… 20 is closing at Rainy… and 20 over loop doesnt look great, or towards Pateros… can you ask somehow for a recommendation.
      |04:01|063|Thought I heard a police car go by saying level 3 for Twisp
      |04:02|016|The whole town
      |04:03|016|Can you get out to wenatchee
      |04:03|063|To go where? Any news on Twin Lakes?
      |04:05|051|Was told twin lakes is level 3
      |04:05|064|is level 3
      |04:05|058|Called EOC.. Evac to Brewster High School or Omak Christian Fellowship ctr
      |04:07|034|Lindsay Picolet’s photo.
      |04:11|058|scanner reports they are putting the fire at 1500 acres
      |04:13|026|That’s very scary, I just finished my doctors appointments in wenatchee an I’m not sure if I should leave now or wait
      |04:20|016|I am amber Higgins mom twisp is lv 3 they Maynor let you in . I would stay in wenatchee for tonight. It’s a mess this fire is moving fast
      |04:15|004|I down here to with husband just being released soon from surgery
      |04:16|026|I hope everything went well, but the town sounds like total caos!
      |04:16|036|Prayers for Melody Long and ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!
      |04:17|065|Winthrop at level 2–getting ready to go!
      |04:18|066|Where did you hear that nancy?
      |04:18|066|I haven’t received any texts about anything. That notification system isn’t working for us. Not waiting for though
      |04:23|067|#Okanogancountyfires The towns of Winthrop and Twisp are being evacuated immediately. People evacuating from both towns should head south. From Winthrop: Proceed south on the Eastside Road past the Smokejumper Base, then proceed southeast on Highway 20/Highway 153 to the Red Cross Shelter at Brewster High School. DO NOT go from Winthrop to Twisp directly on Highway 20, or you will add to traffic congestion in Twisp. Be aware of your surrounding and be careful.
      |04:25|067|h-t-t-p-s-:-//www.facebook.com/Okanogan.County.Emergency… Okanogan County Emergency Management Government Organization Okanogan County Emergency Management’s photo. Okanogan County Emergency Management talking about this
      |04:18|009|flames are cresting on highway 20 over hoot n holler. I can see them from eastcounty road! get out now!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
      |04:22|058|pic if you have the time
      |04:23|055|anyone know if Carlton rd going to Carlton is safe?
      |04:24|058|From Finley Canyon that looks open and clear although I can’t see the part where it meets at the eagle in Twisp.
      |04:27|068|Port Yes
      |04:27|052|thanks

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

      Reply

    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 8

      |04:32|046|Stay safe. Terri and Ken -do you need to come join the party at Hoot N Hollar
      |04:33|058|see a plane flying low over the fire
      |04:34|058|going to be away from a few minutes. still listening to the scanner
      |04:47|030|Anything about structures burning in Twisp? Its hear say that I need to clarify
      |04:48|058|Nothing on the scanner about it but I heard unconfirmed rumors too
      |04:49|030|Dang! I hate rumors!!
      |05:00|069|fire still west of town of Twisp.
      |05:05|030|Thank you Alisha!
      |05:07|058|Someone in town reported no structure fires in town 2 minutes ago
      |05:08|030|Thank you Ed!
      |04:48|012|Its official
      |04:50|058|what structure?
      |04:53|058|I see a plane coming in towards Twisp from the east.
      |04:54|058|And another flying out.. might have just dropped.
      |04:58|046|what is evacuation level on 2 miles up east Check road
      |04:59|046|chewuck road
      |05:00|058|Good news.. they are adding an air tanker!
      |05:09|058|away from scanner for 20 minutes, brb
      |05:11|058|as I was heading out.. they are confirming if they want another heavy heading into twisp on the scanner.. sounds like they are pulling in lots of resources.. no confirmation though..
      |05:13|024|Is it comming toward carlton area or where
      |05:16|027|Coming home from Wenatchee are we going to be able to get back in Valley my kids are at home
      |05:18|042|At this point you can get thru Carlton – where are your kids?
      |05:19|027|eastside County Road, there with our son and his family we know they are safe but am I’m just being a mom and I want to be there
      |05:37|016|If you can prove you live up there and you have kids then they will let you through
      |05:16|070|Is 153 open to Wenatchee?
      |05:17|027|It was when we left, it really needs to be when I get home I need to get to my kids
      |05:17|040|153 is currently open south of Twisp- I see traffic heading both ways
      |05:18|027|Thanks pray it’s open when we get there
      |05:33|043|153 is still open. I live right on it, you’ll have lots of company!
      |05:34|009|Spokane news is confirming 3 fatalities from Twisp River
      |05:36|015|Were they firefighters?
      |05:38|009|I can’t get the article to load… I posted it on this page if you want to try to get it open and let me know thaat would be great. My internet keeps cutting off

      ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

      Reply

    • ** FACEBOOK THREAD CONTINUED – PART 9 ( of 9 PARTS )
      **
      ** NOTE: This is the LAST PART ( for August 19, 2015 )…

      |05:38|008|Do we have any other information on the fatalities?
      |05:41|058|Back and listening on the scanner. There are multiple DC-10s dropping water (taking turns). Also, I was just in town and there are no structures on fire.
      |06:50|071|Thank you for reporting this.
      |05:41|009|h-t-t-p-s-:-//www.facebook.com/SpokaneNews/posts/10152943337255706?fref=nf Spokane News – We have been advised Mass Casualties at Twisp for the fire. Several Helicopters and planes en route. We have been told the fire swept back on crews and 3 confirmed fatalities and others with serious injuries. ?#?okanogancomplexfire?
      |05:42|058|frown emoticon
      |05:43|072|KREM report on fatalities: h-t-t-p-:-//www.krem.com/…/50-acre-fire-evacuates.. /32021205/
      |05:48|036|Nooooo !
      |05:51|015|Just tragic. These are probably the losses linked with the entrapment reported earlier. Devastating loss.
      |05:55|058|On the scanner they were reporting that several were still missing (after the evac). So the ones that got out on lifeline probably made it. There was never an update on the ones missing so I’m assuming it was them.
      |05:58|017|This is devastating news.
      |06:20|016|Has anyone heard of any homes lost on poor man Creek Road
      |06:27|058|My understanding is that it started near Twisp River Road and Elbow Coulee and then went north, nnw and nne from there..
      |06:32|016|Ok thanks
      |06:25|058|They are confirming now if the tankers are coming back. They have taken awhile. Dispatch is not reporting they have been pulled off to anywhere else.
      |06:27|010|Kathy Gunn-Bennett’s photo.
      |06:27|017|Tankers may be limited by darkness and their flight time.
      |06:27|017|Sally Jones Stomberg’s photo.
      |06:28|058|Confirmed that the planes are in route and heading back.
      |06:33|017|Tanker inbound
      |06:36|058|From Finley Canyon Road towards Twisp. Ed Menendez’s photo.
      |06:45|021|Beautiful photo, and horribly sad…
      |07:06|073|Unbelievable frown emoticon Praying for everyone.
      |09:17|058|They are pulling one of the planes back to coeur d’alene for the night
      |09:15|039|Any news?
      ===================================================================================
      END OF MESSAGES POSTED TO THIS FACEBOOK THREAD FOR AUGUST 19, 2015

      Reply

  154. WTKTT and All Others,

    You posted awhile back here about some FB postings from the Twisp Canyon Fire fatalities regarding radio transmissions warning to ‘STAY OUT OF WOODS CANYON’. There are some Twisp Canyon Fire SAIT Investigators interested in that information, especially the time stamps.

    According to those present, the Twisp Canyon Fire debacle was a huge clusterf**k in the canyon very near to the to the 30-Mile Canyon Fire fatalities. 

    The “highly experienced and highly qualified” Engine Boss called in sick that day, leaving a fairly green, inexperienced group of firefighters. The Acting Engine Boss left them to direct helicopter drops, a WFF from a nearby FS Type 4 engine gravitated toward them, the fire ‘stood up’, the wind shifted and the fire cut of their E/R. The Type 4 WFF and the other 3 WFF in the Type 6 engine tried to retreat and crashed.

    There was also a FS Dozer Boss burned over as well as at least 4 DNR WFF that deployed fire shelters in a garage, then left and ran through the fire and we’re burned. Don’t know why they left the garage.

    Got this through the Hot Shot network and others.. At any rate, the SAIT investigators are seeking details on the FB radio warnings and their time stamps. So waiting for you to post here on IM to the details.

    The Cliff Mass blog on the zTwisp Canyon Fire is well worth researching. It was basic S-290 Intermediate FirexWeather stuff. Very predictable, therefore very preventable. Also of interest are the comments from a local Meteorologist and Fire Weather Researcher on the Cliff Mass blog.

    Paraphrasing here: ‘The afternoon shift to westerly winds is a very common occurrence in the Methow Valley during the summer. These WFF were most likely aware of these wind shifts since they were local.’

    ‘Several of the comments from the Cliff Mass blog were removed. One most relevant was that the Wenatchee NWS was,closed which had 3 dedicated Fire Weather Forecasters. The Spokane NWS office fire WX forecasts are NOT produced by dedicated Fire Weather,Forecasters as those positions were eliminated by the NWS.’

    Been busy on fires this season, however, still check every in every so often when I get internet.

    My EN and BWS WARNING still applies. She failed to allow recording her AMS Fire and Forest Meteorology Symposium presentation. Suffice it to say that she played her usual bleeding heart hand trying to take the meteorologists on a guilt trip regarding their Fire WX Forecasts.

    Keep up the good fight everyone.

    Reply

    • RTS… that entire August 19, 2015 Facebook thread has been ‘dumped’ up above.

      Sorry it was delayed. I was just about to post it here when the whole ‘softball interview’ news broke regarding Brendan McDonough.

      At least half a dozen posters to that Facebook thread had ‘scanners’ and they were typing what they were hearing into the thread in REAL TIME that day.

      The convention on that thread was that if it was VERBATIM conversation being heard over the scanner then it was typed in USING ALL CAPITAL LETTERS.

      There are also two VIDEOS that were posted that day by a man and his nephew who were right there on Twisp River Road helping neighbors get their sprinkler systems up and running.

      The Uncle shot the first video of the first Helicopter drops, when the wind was still blowing the “37 Woods Canyon Road” fire to the EAST. He was at that house only a few hundreds away from where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road. You can see the assembled contingent of ‘Engines’ that were there at that intersection at that time.

      The Nephew shot the second video at a house just east of the first one. He appears to have captured the actual emergency retardant drop by a VLAT that was trying to save the men up on Woods Canyon Road. The time matches the “FIREFIGHTERS HUNKERED DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY” and the “AIR TANKER IS GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT:” radio scanner transcripts in the Facebook thread.

      I will post links to BOTH of these videos shortly, I promise.

      I am also going to ‘shorten’ that entire thread transcript and just eliminate all the back and forth about evacuations and the “Oh my Gods” and “Prayers please” and “Jesus help them” and “Can you set up my sprinklers?” stuff.

      I’m going to just show scanner and fire news related entries… because some of them are quite revealing.

      Example… this one at 12:52 PM PDT… just 25 minutes after the “37 Woods Canyon Road” fire was first reported on the scanner at 12:27 PM PDT…

      |12:52|002|investigator is a hr and 15 min ETA to get there to fire

      So even just 25 minutes after the fire was first reported… the local FFs on scene were already requesting an ‘investigator’ be sent to the scene to help determine the real cause of the fire.

      This fire literally “came out of nowhere” and “out of a clear blue sky”.

      The sky was clear that day, there had been no reported lightning strikes anywhere near that spot the night before, and there were no other fires anywhere near close enough to have ‘spotted’ to that location at that time.

      Reply

      • I’m sorry. BAD typo up above. I typed ‘EAST’ when I should have typed ‘WEST’.

        The video shot by the Uncle of the first Helicopter drops on the ’37 Woods Canyon Road’ fire shows the smoke from the fire still blowing to the WEST ( away from the town of Twisp ) and not the EAST. So it was shot BEFORE the ‘wind change’ that day.

        So the paragraph above SHOULD have read like this…

        —————————————————————
        The Uncle shot the first video of the first Helicopter drops, when the wind was still blowing the “37 Woods Canyon Road” fire to the WEST. He was at that house only a few hundreds away from where Woods Canyon Road meets the Twisp River Road. You can see the assembled contingent of ‘Engines’ that were there at that intersection at that time.
        —————————————————————

        Reply

          • And once you seen them… there’s going to be a familiar discussion.

            At the moment the fire actually did seem to ‘reverse’ and charge up the hill from where it started is the exact moment they actually had THREE Helicopters doing rapid succession bucket drops on it at low altitudes.

            Sound familiar?

            Rotor wash… anyone?

            Reply

    • I just want to respond directly to you about this:

      “My EN and BWS WARNING still applies. She failed to allow recording her AMS Fire and Forest Meteorology Symposium presentation. Suffice it to say that she played her usual bleeding heart hand trying to take the meteorologists on a guilt trip regarding their Fire WX Forecasts.”

      Being the daughter of a highly globally renowned meteorologist, having grown up in the weather business, having assisted my dad for ten of his sixteen years as the Weather Wizard for the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta (in which the reality of “lives on the line” was a daily concern), I have tried over the past year and more, to learn as much as I could about how the weather and the fire were dancing together on the Yarnell Hill Fire, and how the weather forecasts were being received (or not) and how Chuck Maxwell was biting his nails, essentially, in Albuquerque, as he was realizing the weather was not being taken seriously enough. And the forecasts were accurate!

      I went around and around and around and around and around with EN about this. To no avail. She created a theory inside of her head that was not based on reality. And there was nothing I could do to change her mind. I finally gave up.

      And then she announced she was going to present this to the AMS. I was completely appalled.

      My father REGULARLY presented stuff to the AMS. It was like an annual “party” for him. But he had earned his creds. He was the world’s number one expert on the behavior of shock waves in the atmosphere (having started with being the Chief Meteorologist for the Atmospheric Nuclear Weapons Testing Program).

      So when he, periodically, presented things that were sometimes “pushing the window,” so to speak, it was specifically to generate some kind of “argumentative feedback” that he completely remained present and engaged in.

      I was completely appalled that EN did what she did, after she remained absolutely completely uninterested, for months and months and months, in any description of what that fire and weather were actually doing on the Yarnell Hll Fire, if it conflicted with her pre-determined mythical mis-understanding of it.

      So I just want to say, I’m totally on the same page with you on this. And I really appreciate your saying what you said here about it.

      Namaste.

      Reply

  155. So, I looked this morning and my breakdown of the visual record and the Sawyers was not posted. So I’m glad I posted it here first. And thank you WTKTT for the info regardarding Bob Brandan mopping up the area near the dozer line into the Deployment Site. I hadn’t caught that, or the significance of it, even though I’ve read that story numerous times.

    And I agreed with Bob Powers, downstream, that it doesn’t really make sense that Eric would have taken sawyers with him, given the timing and all. I don’t think it happened. But I did want to look at that time framework more closely, all things considered.

    WTKTT wrote something I want to underscore and add to.

    At 8:50 PM on September 3, 2015, he wrote:

    “If we were (finally) only going to get ONE little piece of ‘new’ information from Brendan… I think it would have more important to try and ascertain from him whether he heard the CALL-SIGN of whoever was urging Marsh/GM to “Hurry Up” at 4:27 PM in the Ronald Gamble video. Brendan was 20 feet away from Ronald Gamble at 4:27 and just sitting in the GM Supt. truck and ( just like Gamble ) listening to everything that was going down on the radio. It is still HIGHLY LIKELY he heard the same ENTIRE 4:27 radio exchange that Gamble did.”

    I so totally agree with that.

    AND, since I admit to having an “agenda,” I want to add that somebody else who was “sitting there” at 4:27, in a truck, most likely listening to the radio, was Cory Ball, sitting in Paul Musser’s truck in the parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Department, where they went to pick up the ATV that Ball rode into Glen Ilah on to check out the possibility of putting in a dozer line, as part of the “Hail Mary Plan.” And maybe even Paul Musser was sitting there with him, also.

    And, as I was re-reading through all the threads in Chapter Four, as you were describing what you were hearing in the videos that were being released, knowing what I know now that I didn’t know then, I kept thinking, I know I know I know none of those voices probably sound like Paul Musser (and I don’t know what Cory Ball’s voice sounds like or where he’s from, for that matter), but when I tried to figure out who could have been the driver of that truck that took Cory to the YFD, the ONLY person I could think of who wasn’t busily scrambling to do something on that fire and was “in the vicinity” (i.e. around the Ranch House Restaurant to Yarnell Fire Department–and think about the VIEWS from both of those places) from 4 til 4:30 was Paul Musser.

    When I re-read your quote from him in his ADPSH interview where he said he had no more contact with Eric/Granite Mountain after his “Availability Check” I just have to say………….

    I really don’t buy that.

    I would LOVE for somebody to prove my “agenda” wrong. Come on, Brendan, I’m sure you can.

    Or somebody else???

    Reply

      • Thanks Bob!

        And, yes, I had already read that and posted it somewhere downstream.

        Along with an exasperated comment along the lines of “Doesn’t ANYBODY pay ANY attention to weather forecasts on wildfires ANY MORE???????”

        Reply

        • Come to think of it, it does make it easier to just throw hands up in the air and say,

          “That MEAN EVIL fire, look what it DID!!!!!!! How could anybody have even KNOWN????????????????”

          Because that is exactly what is happening. Just blame it all on the mean evil inexplicable FIRE.

          Reply

          • My Days as a Dispatcher and Dispatch Supervisor for 18 years my people and I always faxed, sent via internet and Read over the Radio to all forest employees who were on the Radio the Forecasts twice a day and all Red flag warnings. We gave forecasts and updated forecasts to any manned fires on the Forests SOP. All Districts copied the Forecasts.

            Standard Fire Fighting Order Number 1
            Which Granit Mountain received but evidently ignored.
            As well as those responding to the Twisp Fire
            What are these new age Fire Fighters Doing??????

            Reply

            • Completely agree.

              And Who Knows?????

              Apparently, from what I have, in some detail, seen, NOBODY was paying any attention to the weather forecasts on the Yarnell Fire. And it really grits me that EN, after I went round and round and round with her about this, went ahead and “presented™” to the AMS, as Robert the Second wrote just up above, “failed to allow recording her AMS Fire and Forest Meteorology Symposium presentation. Suffice it to say that she played her usual bleeding heart hand trying to take the meteorologists on a guilt trip regarding their Fire WX Forecasts.”

              Something is really wrong here. And I truly don’t know what, if anything, is being done to fix it.

              Reply

    • Marti… maybe you just hit another nail on the head. Maybe that actually IS Cory Ball himself talking to Marsh at 4:27 and basically asking “How fast can you get Granite Mountain here?”. Cory Ball WAS sitting in that truck at exactly 4:27 as it was pulling into the YFD so he could borrow that ATV to go scout emergency dozer line. The ‘plan’ to scout that dozer line was well under way and since Ball was put in charge of it… maybe that’s all the ‘authoritay’ he felt he needed to call Marsh and either make demands or express expectations.

      And yes… it is HIGHLY likely that it was a Paul Musser himself dropping Ball off at the YFD and hearing every word of that 4:27 PM radio exchange between (possibly) Cory Ball and Eric Marsh.

      Maybe Paul Musser even encouraged Ball to make that call as they were together in the truck and headed for the YFD… but Musser still felt comfortable saying he had no further (direct) contact with Marsh after 3:42 PM because he (technically) didn’t. He got Cory Ball to make that 4:27 call while he (Musser) just focused on driving the pickup over to the YFD.

      It really is a shame ADOSH was never able to interview Ball… or any other Blue Ridge hotshot. If they had… there would then be a good sample of what his voice sounded like to be compared with the voice in the 4:27 PM Ronald Gamble video.

      Reply

      • Thanks, WTKTT. I’m thinking you may be right. And I’m still thinking. About the OTHER conversation at 4:16.

        At 4:16, Ball was, apparently somewhere around where he was photographed on the corner of Lakewood and Fountainhill, checking out what the fire looked like from that vantage point. What was he hearing on the radio? I don’t know.

        I think it might be probable that Musser was at the Ranch House Restaurant, waiting for Ball and, also, possibly communicating with the Yarnell Fire Department about picking up the ATV. We know what the view is from both of those places. Pretty much the best in Yarnell.

        I don’t think he would have been NOT listening to those conversations on Air to Ground.

        My thinking is still fuzzy, so I’ll do it out loud. Although sometimes I prefer these kinds of conversations between us to be located further down in the less-read weeds. Especially about THIS subject. I don’t “like” this “agenda.” But it’s sitting there. I didn’t put it there. And I’ve always been open for my more “out-there” ideas to be refuted.

        So imagine, Paul Musser left from his convo with Gary Cordes and headed into Yarnell, as per his ADOSH interview.

        Somebody had to arrange with Yarnell Fire Department to, after picking up Ball at the Ranch House Restaurant, be able to drive him over there and get whatever was necessary for Ball to jump on that ATV and head out from there ipso pronto.

        Is it possible that vague term “fire” (that term that got batted around downstream) could just be shorthand for Yarnell Fire Department? Somehow I just don’t believe it was folks way off yonder having these conversations over these channels about this stuff when there are a number of people right there on the ground with great views of the ridge-side of the fire who easily could have been wondering what was happening “up there,” especially with the “Hail Mary Plan” being put into place.

        Are you SURE the voice in the convo with Burfiend wasn’t Musser? I have no ear for that stuff, so I do rely on your judgement.

        Reply

        • PS. Sitting here thinking some more. I don’t think that, at 4:16 Gary Cordes was paying much attention to much of this. I think he had his hands more than full right where he was at.

          I’m conjuring that Gary handed off this “get Ball onto the ATV” task to Musser and trusted him to run with it.

          I’m also imagining, all things considered, that Musser may have not even liked this “Hail Mary Plan” very much, all things considered. He may have even, all things considered, thought it stood about 14 chances in a thousand in Hell of succeeding. I don’t think he thought, at that time, that it even was potentially successful enough to turn into “dangerous.”

          He may not have even known/suspected Eric and Granite Mountain were even thinking about it, much less beginning to implement their own piece of it, until he was sitting in the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot waiting for Ball and listening to/participating in this conversation his radio.

          He may have been having his own WTF moment at that point.

          Except, if that was the case, who asked, as Brendan so recently said, them to “come to Yarnell if they could.”

          Maybe Eric was acting out of his own possible role as one of the architects of the “Hail Mary Plan” and nobody actually “asked” until Brendan heard a version of this question “asked” at 4:27 over the radio????

          And maybe THAT might have been a WTF moment for Musser? After Musser dropped off Ball, he skedaddled over to the whole Shrine Road scene. Maybe even then he didn’t really know exactly what Granite Mountain was doing until the sh*t hit the fan.

          I wrote, when we once before conversed about this way down in the weeds in Chapter XV, that this was the last “rabbit hole” I would allow myself to wander down into. I still consider that to be the case. But I think this “rabbit hole” is one of the most important ones on this fire.

          It is, in my opinion, where the “rubber” of Marsh and Steed’s ultimate responsibility for their crew meets the “road” of the Overhead Mismanagement of this fire, and thus the reason why the SAIT went to such great extents to seal it into an envelope and lock it away in a very big safe.

          Reply

          • And another potential maybe.

            Maybe, when Ball was sitting shotgun in Musser’s truck in the parking lot, taking a photo and listening to/talking on? the radio, Musser was actually not in the truck, but in the Yarnell Fire Department building.

            Sure would be nice if a REAL investigation of what happened on this fire would take place.

            Sure would be nice if it included what I believe probably is the case:

            That the team doing the Fire Retardant Study had a recorder hooked up to the Air To Ground Radio Channel, which would have been essential to a real Fire Retardant Study.

            Reply

            • That being the case, I doubt the Study team was recording the Tac channels, so that wouldn’t help with this one.

              But it would surely help with a lot of other stuff.

              Reply

          • So this idea that Musser may not actually have been all that aware of Eric/Granite Mountain’s role in this “Hail Mary Plan” and thus, wasn’t, as I have been suspecting him of being, the one who was connecting it tactically to Eric/Granite Mountain, leaves a hole in place.

            Who WAS connecting the “Hail Mary Plan” tactically to/with Eric/Granite Mountain?

            Musser may have, while he was sitting in his truck listening to the radio in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant while waiting for Cory Ball, and also conversing with the Yarnell Fire Department, been engaged in some way in the 4:16 conversation regarding “the status” of both Eric and Granite Mountain. Without really even knowing Eric/Granite Mountain’s intentions regarding this plan. I really don’t know how probable/improbable that is.

            And he also may or may not have even anticipated or even been privy to the 4:27 conversation.

            I’m trying to err on the side of “innocence” on the part of Musser (just for the thinking thing). Maybe he really didn’t even have enough information regarding Eric’s/Granite Mountain’s role in this gathering Disastrous “Final” Act of this Shakespearian Tragedy, to the point that, until the Deployment happened, he was also about fifteen minutes behind in his thinking as to what was actually taking place, especially given Eric’s obtuse communications throughout all of it.

            I mean, really, otherwise he could have just frickin radioed Eric and required him to say exactly what was happening. Apparently, he didn’t, at least according to the evidence at hand.

            So who WAS engaging Eric regarding his tactical plans regarding this “Hail Mary Plan” and Granite Mountain’s role in it?

            It had to be somebody “in the know” on both sides of this “equation.” At least to SOME extent. I would think?

            This is where I am scratching my head.

            Was it Cory Ball? WTKTT, you said that Cory was “put in charge” of this thing. I really am stumped on the question of who really was “in charge” of this “Hail Mary Plan,” all things considered. Is it possible that nobody was and all the various players just thought it would just all come together anyway?

            I really don’t know how this stuff works or is supposed to work on a wildfire. I know as a long-time Girl Scout Leader/Camp Counselor/Horseback Riding Director and leader of treks in the Grand Canyon, I never operated in this way. And THESE DAYS as a frickin’ Girl Scout Leader, you can’t even walk your Troop around the block without filling out all kinds of plans for every safety contingency you can possibly think of because of Liability.

            This is truly where I am completely stumped.

            Reply

            • Marti… just wanted you to know I have read EVERYTHING you have now written in the series of messages above… and I am composing a response… because it deserves one.

              But it’s ( as you know ) complicated.

              I absolutely love your “This is where the ‘rubber’ met the ‘road'” analogy. It really is.

              If there was no ‘plan’ at all for GM to arrive in Glen Ilah ASAP ( to participate in ?? something ?? anything ?? ) then their deaths can, in fact, be said to be all just ‘rubber’… and no ‘road’.

              If there WAS a plan… then the reason the ‘rubber’ failed is because the ‘road’ was misconceived and irresponsible.

              Remember…

              We still have absolutely NO real idea what a man who left his ‘Planning’ post at the ICP and jumped feet-first into a chaotic fire situation as the fully-armed SECOND ‘Field’ Level OPS level supervisor on an ICS command org chart was actually DOING for more than a full HALF-HOUR between the time we hear him trying to make a radio call to Eric Marsh ( at 3:42 PM ) and then later appearing in an Aaron Hulburd Helmet Cam video in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph saying HI to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and then saying “Everything’s going to shit” to ‘Bucky’.

              We really don’t ( know what he was doing for those 30+ mins ).

              Did he go into the bathroom at the Ranch House Restaurant and read a magazine for a half-hour?

              Or was he standing in the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant as the second fully-engaged OPS2 now on the fire with a bunch of FFs around him and telling them all to ‘do things’?

              Did he point to any number of FFs who seemed to need something to do and say things like…

              Hey you…whatever your name is… you just heard what Air Attack Burfiend asked us to do. Get on the horn and ask Granite Mountain what their status is… and don’t forget… Air Attack Burfiend specifically wanted us to find out if Marsh is actually WITH the Granite Mountain guys who he says he saw ‘on the corner of the fire’ there… so don’t forget to ask Marsh that too.

              ( 4:13: Voice with what appears to be a slight Cajun accent calls directly to ‘Granite Mountain’ on TAC asking “Granite Montun… wuz you status rat now?’ )

              Then Musser turns to someone else in the parking lot and says…

              And YOU… whatever YOUR name is… go find someone from Yarnell Fire Department and find out if they have an ATV because I’ve got a guy named Cory Ball headed here right now and he’s going to need one for something we want him to do for us.

              Maybe Musser was standing there being an OPS and telling a LOT of other people what to do, who to call, what to ask.. etc. etc.

              And maybe that’s why he still felt comfortable answering NO to a question from investigators later of “Did you have any direct contact with Eric Marsh after speaking to him at 3:42 PM?”

              Because…

              Maybe he ( Musser ) really didn’t.
              Maybe he ( Musser ) was now ( for that mysterious half-hour that we don’t know WHAT he was doing ) Mr. ‘Busy Man’ and telling OTHER people who to call and what to ask them on the radio…

              …and that’s why we have a lot of radio captures with the voices of ‘other’ ( unidentifiable ) people in that same timeframe.

              Conjecture? You damn betcha.

              This ‘part of the story’ is still so obscured behind protective filters and reluctant interviewees and ( frankly ) incompetent investigations that ‘conjecture’ is still all we have.

              But it’s ‘educated conjecture’.

              It COULD all be the way it was going down that day.

              I said I was ‘composing a response’ to everything you were talking about above… and I am… and this isn’t it.

              This was just “I hear ya… and I’ll get back on this with more thoughts as soon as I can”.

              I’m actually ( currently ) scouring my notes and radio captures just to see if there is even the SLIGHTEST chance one of those seemingly meaningless radio captures MIGHT actually have been the elusive Cory Ball speaking on the radio.

              All we need is just ONE short capture of his voice and we will be able to compare it to the voice in the 4:27 PM Ronald Gamble video.

              You really got me thinking on that one.

              It really COULD be him thinking he now had the ‘authoritay’ to just get Marsh on the horn himself and express demands/expectations, like whoever it really was in that Yarnell Gamble video seemed to be doing.

              I have said all along that WHOEVER Marsh was responding to in that 4:27 PM ‘Ronald Gamble’ video was someone Marsh was REQUIRED to respond to, at that time.

              But maybe the ORG chart had nothing to do with that.

              To use your latest ( good ) analogy…

              If there was a PLAN in place and that caller was simply the one in charge of the PLAN itslef ( regardless of any ORG charts )… then that is the “road” that was asking Marsh to respond to with “rubber”.

              Reply

              • Ha ha! I just found this. And maybe it IS better that it’s still down here “in the weeds.”

                I went back and checked my vehicle timelines. Regarding the 4:16 conversation, the other thing that was happening at that point was that the Three Prescotteers were driving towards the east in front of the Air Study camera. And, as you pointed out way back when, one of them appears to be talking on a radio.

                Reply

  156. Sitta said, “Yeah, Bill Gabbert has closed comments. I know it doesn’t matter, but I suppose it will give me some satisfaction to post my would-have-been comment here:

    “Bill, I’m guessing your sigh is aimed at WTKTT, and that your interview was not intended to bring up the details of the (non)investigation.

    I only wish more wildland fire fighters were more curious and angry about this incident and the investigation. I didn’t renew my red card this year. To be honest, I just don’t feel as comfortable as I used to. I feel disillusioned about wff culture’s commitment to safety. When I hear someone say this could have happened to any crew (and I’ve heard that), I don’t want to work on a fire with them. Heck, I felt like I was the only person in my work environment who was willing to read the SAIT, or at least carefully enough to be dissatisfied. If the facts of that day are unknowable, it’s not because this was an inevitable outcome. It’s because of a botched investigation that started with a ‘feel good’ agenda, ignored and gagged witnesses, and a wff culture that frowns upon asking too many difficult questions (or is blithely incurious).

    I’m grateful for the coverage that you provide through Wildfire Today, and for the forum here. I’m also grateful for the time and talent that concerned citizens such as WTKTT have invested in pulling lessons out of this tragedy. I’ve learned so much more from them than I did from the expensive and flawed SAIR. Sadly, the clearest lesson to me is that we seem to care more about comforting the current survivors than preventing the next tragedy.”

    I am moving this up to the top because I am hoping everyone reads it…a second time. And I am glad that Sitta is back posting again, but I am sorry she is not renewing her red card this year because the system desperately needs people like her.Although I can’t argue with her logic for sitting this next one out.

    As I am now fond of saying, the wildland firefighting community is at least 20 years behind law enforcement in accountability and learning from mistakes that are made. I don’t believe that you will find any credible law enforcement source anywhere in the county saying that Lt. Charles Joseph Gliniewicz, from Fox Lake, Ill., did not make any tactical mistakes when he left his patrol car and gave chase on foot for several hundred yards into the woods after 3 suspicious suspects without waiting for back up (and probably without a long gun).

    Lt. GliniewiczHe was obviously physically fit, very experience, well trained, highly motivated and had a high degree of self confidence in his ability to handle any situation that he came up against because he had been doing it for so long, so successfully and always going home at the end of his shift. But now he won’t be going home ever again.

    Within a very short period of time, the mistakes he made will be used as an example of what not to do at law enforcement academy’s and in-service training sessions all around the country, complete with audio recordings and video re-enactments with all of the mistakes he made replayed over and over again. I sat through countless sessions documenting case study after case study that went back decades and then went through re-enactments of similar scenarios with actors and all of the props to make it as real as possible so instructors and evaluators could continually judge my decision process and ability to survive similar situations.

    And none of this will diminish Lt. Gliniewiczhis bravery, sacrifice, his service and commitment to his community to keep it safe from bad people. No one will ever say, “no mistakes were made.”

    I don’t know much about the military, except for what I see in TV news stories and read about, but I believe they are on par with law enforcement in studying what went wrong, when things do go terribly wrong with a strong commitment to make sure the same mistakes aren’t made again….if they can help it.

    The wildland firefighting community as a whole as exemplified by their leaders such as men like those on the Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT (I am not going to bother listing their names, they are not worth it) and those who are putting current and future wildland firefighters at risk by continuing to conceal the truth about what went wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire are a disgrace to themselves and the profession they pretend to serve.

    Reply

    • Oh….and one more thing. I am going to have to start saying the wildland firefighting community is more than 30 years behind law enforcement when it comes to accountability and responsibly recognizing the lessons learned. I keep forgetting how far back I go.

      Reply

    • Well said ( as usual ), Gary.

      Mr. Bill Gabbert decided to publish an article that seems to contain proof positive ( from the horse’s mouth itself ) that a key witness in the deaths of 19 civil servants has ALWAYS been withholding important information from investigators… and might STILL be doing so.

      What in the hell did Gabbert think the comments were going to look like?

      If he’s that timid… then he should have just done one of his “One and Done” things like he does sometimes and made even the original article “Closed for any Comments”.

      Reply

      • and YES… thank you for ‘reposting’ Sitta’s comment. It really does deserve to be read at least two or three or more times… and it’s a damn shame Mr. Gabbert decided to throw it in the trash bin over at his “Wildfire Today” blog or ezine or whatever it is he has going on over there.

        Reply

    • I, too, was sad to read this comment from Sitta. Not just for Sitta, but for everybody. Everybody loses because of this. And enough would be being lost anyway.

      That’s why I wrote what I wrote in June about feeling like I had “finished” my work here. I really feel like there’s not much more I can do regarding this mess. It’s really in the hands of wildland firefighters at this point. We have slowly handed them as much detail about this fire as we could, given all the with-holding of evidence and massive obfuscation.

      You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.

      Reply

  157. Reply to Marti Reed post on September 3, 2015 at 4:22 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> Holly is now writing that she has seen cuttings near the dozer line that
    >> was put in from the Helms Ranch to the Deployment Site. She is saying
    >> she doesn’t yet know when these cuttings were made, and that she is
    >> researching that.

    Peeples Valley firefighter Bob Brandon says in his own personal account that on the day AFTER the tragedy… his crewmates were the ones doing ‘mop up’ work with small trees and bushes along that dozer push from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site.

    Here’s a reprint of a message I just posted over at Bill Babbert’s ‘Widlfire Today’ under the place where Holly Neill said she was unsure where these ‘stods’ along that dozer push might have come from…

    Reply to Holly Neill on September 2, 2015 at 3:35 pm said:

    >> Holly Neill said…
    >>
    >> I have found numerous chainsaw cut stobs around
    >> the dozer line from the Helms up to fatality site.
    >> Not just at the fatality site where I would expect to
    >> find them, but further east and closer to Helms.
    >> Some Pulaski cuts were done during mop up but
    >> I’m still trying to rule in or out whether anyone ran
    >> a saw in there pre or post fire.

    If you haven’t already… you might want to read the following personal account written by Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon and sitting on the public ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ website…

    http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html

    Bob Brandon is one of the Peeples Valley firefighters who was working as part of TFLD(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel’s Task Force 1 ( under SPGS1 Gary Cordes ) out at the Youth Camp at the end of Shrine Road on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.

    Bob Brandon was part of that other group of firefighters that *almost* lost there lives that day out near that Youth Camp and ended up ‘running for their lives’.

    In this ‘in my own words’ account that he published quite some time ago… he talks about what happened that day as well as what then happened the NEXT DAY.

    He says that two of his workmates ( from Peeples Valley Fire ) were the ones who were doing the ‘mop up’ work the day after the tragedy along that ‘dozer push’ from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site. Sounds like THEY might have been using chainsaws for this and might have created some of the ‘stobs’ you say you found along there.

    From Bob Brandon’s article…
    ———————————————————————–
    Our other men, two of the other firefighters from Peeples Valley, went in with the team to where the 19 firefighters passed away. And they were basically fire suppression up to the Helms house so the investigation could go in and take care of it. So they actually had an assignment for that day to put out little trees and bushes and things like that so they could actually get into that location.
    ———————————————————————–

    >> Holly Neill also wrote…
    >>
    >> It’s a shame that no one investigated or inspected
    >> the area between the fatality site and Helms place
    >> before the dozer line was put it. Or after.

    Yes. It is.

    No one should have been allowed to cut that dozer line in the middle of the night before the police detectives even had the chance to examine the ENTIRE scene.

    As even the discussion on this thread alone now proves… the chance to actually look for any FOOTPRINTS that even might have been possible to find there between the deployment site and the ranch was lost.

    Blue Ridge Hotshots Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown…. Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and DPS Officer/Medic Eric Tarr DID ‘walk’ together from the deployment site back to the BSR after discovering the bodies… so their own footprints would have been on TOP of the ash… but any chance to find any OTHER footprints were lost the minute someone was given permission to do that dozer push in the middle of the night prior to the YCSO detectives even getting to examine the scene.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      Looks like the comment above is never going to appear on Gabbert’s site.

      It was sitting in ‘moderation’ for a few hours… but now it has disappeared and Gabbert has decided to CLOSE the thread to comments because he doesn’t like the conversation.

      Looks like Brendan picked just the right place for his ‘softball interview’.

      Reply

      • Welcome to my struggle with Bill He opens a Blog for Fire Fighters and then cherry picks who gets to talk as you I am sure noticed none of the comments last very long and he moves every body along. I can comment according to his rules on every thing else but Yarnell hill. Bill seams to be going along with the new Ideas of the Fire Gods that for ever more— No one did any thing wrong but they died and continue to die—-

        A note from my under ground net work—–The Captain of the Engine that the 3 FS Fire Fighters Died in (Twisp Fire) Who was a highly qualified Supervisor was on sick leave the day of the accident. This may have been a contributing factor to the others taking the Engine into the location of the accident. Along with the others that got trapped.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 4, 2015 at 7:12 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> Welcome to my struggle with Bill He opens a Blog for Fire
          >> Fighters and then cherry picks who gets to talk as you
          >> I am sure noticed none of the comments last very long and
          >> he moves every body along. I can comment according to
          >> his rules on every thing else but Yarnell hill.
          >> Bill seams to be going along with the new Ideas of the
          >> Fire Gods that for ever more— No one did any thing wrong
          >> but they died and continue to die—-

          He decides to publish something which pretty much proves that a key witness in a tragic event that took the lives of 19 civil servants has ALWAYS been ( and might STILL be ) withholding crucial information regarding that incident… and he expected… what?

          What in the hell did he expect the ‘comments’ to look like?

          If he wasn’t prepared for what was going to happen… then he should have either declined to even do the interview… or just done one of his ‘One and Done’ postings with this and turned the WordPress comment switch off the moment he published.

          What’s really curious is what he said in his ‘announcement’ that he didn’t like where the conversation was going and he was closing the thread to comments.

          Gabbert said…

          ——————————————————
          The important facts that lead to lessons learned are known.
          ——————————————————

          Really? Ok… sooooo… what is HIS list of ‘lessons learned’ look like at this point, then?

          He doesn’t say.

          Whatever. It’s his party and he can cry if he wants to.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> A note from my under ground net work—–The Captain of the
          >> Engine that the 3 FS Fire Fighters Died in (Twisp Fire) Who
          >> was a highly qualified Supervisor was on sick leave the day
          >> of the accident. This may have been a contributing factor
          >> to the others taking the Engine into the location of the
          >> accident. Along with the others that got trapped.

          See the posting above in response to RTS.

          Actually… you can’t miss it. It’s that huge DUMP of that entire Facebook thread from August 19, 2015 where lots of people were listening to their radio scanners in the Twisp area and posting VERBATIM what they were hearing over the radio in REAL TIME that day.

          There is this mention of an “ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE”.

          That also matches one of the radio dispatch notes obtained by the Associated Press.

          So it remains to be determined if this man was actually ON “Woods Canyon Road” and whether this had ANYTHING to do with those TWO engines heading up that road even though they knew they shouldn’t have.

          Seems unlikely to me, though.

          I mean… why would you send TWO engines up there just to try and get someone out of their house? Seems to me like you’d just send a command vehicle, if anything.

          Unless the plan was… if they couldn’t get him to leave they were going to try and keep his house from burning down, or something.

          Anyway… that piece of evidence seems real and the timing on it is such that the investigators are going to have to look closely at that to see if it in any way had anything to do with what happened to those men.

          Reply

  158. Reply to Holly Neill post on September 1, 2015 at 10:55 am

    NOTE: Bringing this one up from ‘out of the weeds’ down below since others might have missed it and might want to comment.

    >> Holly Neill said ( in reply to a post from WTKTT )
    >>
    >> REPLY: – From Official records:
    >>
    >> “…this escape route had not been scouted, timed, marked or improved”. ADOSH

    We now know that if Brendan McDonough had not always been withholding information from investigators then at least the ‘scouted’ part would have had some supportive evidence for ALL of the ‘investigations’…. but just walking through a blind box canyon and ( perhaps ) tying some ribbons on bushes does not automatically make any ‘route’ a valid, safe ‘escape route’.

    You know that.

    >> Holly Neill also wrote…
    >>
    >> “A second error made by GMIHC is that they did not have a lookout when they
    >> made the descent to Boulder Springs Ranch”. ADOSH

    And there is still absolutely no evidence they did ( have a valid lookout ).

    The most supportive piece of evidence that they did NOT ever have a valid lookout for this risky move is that they are all, in fact, dead. Most apparently… NO ONE was THERE with any kind of ‘eyes on the fire’ to tell them what a mistake they were making.

    >> Holly Neill said…
    >>
    >> “There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite
    >> Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify communications
    >> from the crew, and we have almost no direct information for them.” SAIR

    We all know that was total bullshit… but please notice there was a method to their
    madness here when deciding to publish this fictional statement.

    Two key phrases here…

    1) “the Team cannot verify communications”

    That doesn’t meant they didn’t know about them. It only means they decided to play some game whereby they could claim they couldn’t ‘verify’ them… without having to say what they ever did or didn’t do to even TRY and ‘verify’ them. They never explained what their ‘criteria’ was that would raise a reported ( or even recorded ) communication to ‘verified’ status.

    In his speech to Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014, SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley basically dismissed any/all background radio traffic in any recordings or videos as ‘UN-VERIFIABLE’, as far as the SAIT had been concerned.

    2) “we have ALMOST no direct information for them”

    Almost? Guess the only times when THAT counts.

    If you ‘almost’ have nothing… then it still means you have SOMETHING.

    Very clever on the part of Jim Karels and Mike Dudley.

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> “No one realized that the crew left the black and headed southeast, sometime
    >> after 1604.” SAIR

    Again… we all know that was total bullshit… so I’m not sure what you point is there.

    If you are trying to make a case that if there is proof that even ONE person ( who didn’t end up dead ) was aware of what they were trying to do that they somehow achieved the ‘C’ of LCES… you know that dog won’t hunt.

    There are always TWO requirements in the ‘C’ of ‘LCES’.

    You have to Communicate ‘Clearly’ and ‘Effectively’.

    If you don’t do both… you have not ‘communicated at all’.

    From SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s comments to that roomful of Utah firefighters
    on June 20, 2014…

    SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said…
    ————————————————————–
    A lot of people were talking ( that day )… very few people were communicating.

    And you saw that little snippet of when Blue Ridge and Granite are tryin’ to identify… “Where are you guys? Youre’ in the black?”… “Yea… we’re makin’ our way down the escape route”.

    At no point do you see someone finally go… “Okay… WHERE exactly are you HEADED?”.

    That was never defined.

    It was almost as if Granite Mountain was being DELIBERATELY vague.
    ———————————————————————————–

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> When new information comes forward that directly contradicts these
    >> erroneous official findings and many others, I feel that it is important to
    >> make the distinctions.

    On that we can agree.

    Even though we now know the investigators were crippled by witnesses either withholding very important information and/or playing that “Ask me the right question and I might give you the right answer” game… I still ( personally ) think there should be an “investigation of the investigations”. They were more than just a ‘botch job’. I think they border on a criminal ‘mis-use of public funds”.

    ** LCES LIGHTNING ROUND

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> L: Eric had eyes on the fire, down below. He was lookout.

    You don’t know that. Either part.

    Nothing Brendan has said even in the last few days does anything to support that.

    I know you still think you hear the word ‘house’ in that 1613 audio recording but even if that word is there it does nothing to support the carte-blanche statement you made.

    If either part of what you simply ‘believe’ is true… then why are 19 men dead?

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> C: Eric communicated their intentions to leave the black and travel down
    >> the escape route toward the structures, from 1613 and 1627 audios plus
    >> numerous other references to “hearing this” in official interviews,
    >> especially including Gary Cordes. But “No one” knew they were moving,
    >> according to SAIR.

    Again… we all KNOW the SAIT was full of shit on this. That’s no news flash.

    But it is also absolutely true that people who SHOULD have known that a Division Supervisor had decided to move ALL of his resources out of their assigned division and into a completely different one have testified they did NOT know this was taking place.

    Specifically… Eric Marsh’s direct Field Operations Supervisor, Todd Abel.

    From OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview…
    —————————————————————————————-
    1768 A: About that time I get a call from Eric Marsh on
    1769 the radio saying, hey, just wanna give you a heads up the winds are getting
    1770 squirrely over here, it looks like our retardant line – they had ran a retardant
    1771 line – I think came right through this drainage right here, and our dozer line,
    1772 see that came right out there and went – that retardant line did?
    1773
    1774 Q1: Mm-hm, right.
    1775
    1776 A: And our dozer line are – are compromised – they’re gonna be compromised. I
    1777 said okay, I copy. I said are you guys in a safe place? He said affirmative,
    1778 we’re in the black. I said copy that, just – once again everybody’s in a good
    1779 spot? Yes we’re all in a good spot, we’re in the black. I said copy that.

    1806 A: So and then John (Burfiend) made a run down there, everybody looked good, they
    1807 were in the black, no, you know ev- no issues, no nothing. So ev-everybody was good.

    2390 A: When – when he (Eric) was up here and saying my escape route’s been
    2391 comprised, I’m thinking he’s up here ( at the anchor point ). I’m in total confusion,
    2392 I have no idea. Two hundred and fifty acres of black, they’re direct, all they gotta do
    2393 is step into that. That – that’s where I thought they were at. That’s where everybody
    2394 thought they were at.
    —————————————————————————————-

    Does that sound like a Division Supervisor ( also doubling as a Hotshot Superintendent that day ) communicating ‘Clearly’ and ‘Effectively’ with his direct Operations Level Supervisor, as he/she is REQUIRED to do?

    And here’s what the OTHER OPS level guy ( Planning OPS2 Paul Musser )
    had to say to ADOSH…

    A = Planning OPS2 Paul Musser
    ——————————————————————————————
    902 Q2: Okay. Uh, do you, uh, uh – so do you know what their, uh, uh, safety zone
    903 would have been? Uh…
    904
    905 A: Yes the black.
    906
    907 Q2: The black – once they got to the black. And they were safe getting there based
    908 on your observation and you have air attack up above?
    909
    910 A: Right.

    1412 A: Uh, got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face
    1413 with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio.
    1414 Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the
    1415 radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge?
    1416 They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the
    1417 bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their
    1418 committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.
    1419
    1420 Q2: You’re talking about Blue Ridge?
    1421
    1422 A: Yes, Blue Ridge.
    1423
    1424 Q2: Okay.
    1425
    1426 A: And that Granite was still committed in the black…
    1427
    1428 Q2: Okay.
    1429
    1430 A: …up on top.

    1689 Q2: Uh, and, uh – and you had no other conversations with Granite Mountain that
    1690 you recall?
    1691
    1692 A: No.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    So it would appear that Eric Marsh had decided that the only people on the fire who were even the slightest bit entitled to even be given any kind of HINT about what he ( A Division Supervisor ) or Granite Mountain were doing was anyone OTHER than the ‘Operations’ level people.

    I would call that ‘TOTAL FAIL’ in the ‘C’ department for any ‘Division Supervisor’.

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> E: Eric went down ahead of the crew to check the escape route
    >> before bringing them down.

    It wasn’t an ‘escape route’.

    It was a dangerous, unimproved cross-country bushwhack through an explosive fuel bed within 1/2 mile of an oncoming, wind-driven dynamic fireline

    You can say that he ‘scouted’ it all you want to.

    That doesn’t make it any kind of valid ‘escape route’.

    >> Holly Neill also said…
    >>
    >> S: Safety zone was identified and considered adequate.

    Post-fire… Lee and DJ Helm ( the owners of the Boulder Springs Ranch ) filed a ‘property damage’ lawsuit against Arizona Forestry and the State of Arizona for damages to their property in excess of 6 million dollars. Outbuildings were incinerated. Antique wagons in the INTERIOR of the ‘safety zone’ were reduced to ashes. Air Conditioners burned on the tops of the main buildings.

    Even if they ( Granite Mountain ) had made it there they most likely would have only survived by getting inside some of the stone structures that were there or would have had to take their chances and ‘deployed’ anyway somewhere outside the structures.

    Some ‘adequate safety zone.’.

    I wouldn’t have wanted to “give it a ride”.

    An ‘adequate safety zone’ is a place where you don’t have to either get inside buildings OR deploy your fire shelter(s) in order to survive.

    You know that.

    So here is my ‘LCES’ breakdown ( doesn’t match yours, sorry )…

    L = Non-existent ( if they had one, why are they dead? )
    C = Off-the-charts piss-poor
    E = Hastily chosen classic ‘never go there’ deathtrap.
    S = Over 6 million in fire damages. Probably not survivable with a deployment.

    ( Continued next message )…

    Reply

    • ( Continued from previous message )…

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> I do believe that Watch Out #17 was compromised.

      WATCH OUT #17: Terrain and fuels make escape to safety zone difficult.

      ‘Compromised’ isn’t a strong enough word there, I’m afraid.

      What about…

      #11: Unburned fuel between you and the fire
      #12: Cannot see the main fire and not in communication with someone who can.
      etc… etc…

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> Whether you choose to make a judgment on information that reflects clarity
      >> and better understanding of this event is entirely up to you.

      Of course it is… right back atcha.

      I also reserve the right to take a look at what someone else is saying actually
      “provides clarity and understanding” just to make sure they haven’t fallen into that
      category reserved for Mark Twain’s famous quote…

      “It ain’t what they don’t know that scares me.
      It’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so.”

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> If I recall correctly from last year, your “team” lectured me extensively
      >> about the impossibility of Marsh being ahead of the crew.

      There is no ‘team’ here… and even there were… they certainly aren’t ‘mine’.

      This is just a PUBLIC FORUM where anyone is allowed to make a comment as long as the moderator of the forum decides they are respecting the stated public posting guidelines.

      And yes… when you and John Maclean decided to ‘publish’ your findings from those not-seen-publicly-yet videos… of course we had things to say about your ‘findings’.

      You were basing GIGANTIC assumptions ( and you still ARE? ) on whether the word ‘house’ was present in one part of a faintly heard background audio capture.

      Someone needed to call you out on that.

      There was also plenty of “Sorry… I don’t hear what you hear” messages posted at the place where you chose to publish those findings as well ( Gabbert’s Widlfire Today site ).

      When you and John Maclean then posted your psuedo-retraction letter over at Wildfire today and finally admitted that the word ‘house’ might actually NOT be in that recording after all… and all the published theories related to it were really just ‘conjecture’… it was disappointing to discover that Mr. Gabbert had decided there could be no further public comments on the issue on his (supposedly) public forum.

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> Official records have led to official and unofficial misperceptions.
      >> If new information sheds light and clarity on what happened that day,
      >> let us take it in and consider it without ugly sarcasm and pre- conceived bias.

      Agree. But see above. Let’s also always take a deep breath and make sure that
      just because a piece of information is ‘new’ doesn’t mean it isn’t another dish
      of hot-runny bullshit coming from people with ‘agendas’.

      >> Holly Neill
      >>
      >> At the very least, the GMIHC deserve a factual and correct account of what
      >> actually DID happen that day.

      Totally agree. What did you really think of Brendan’s latest ‘interview’?

      Do you think he still knows even MORE that he has always been withholding from investigators?

      >> Holly Neill also said…
      >>
      >> If LCES was mitigated, then something else went terribly wrong. Holly

      Also agree… but a minor point here about your use of the word ‘mitigated’.

      I’m not sure your use of that word in conjunction with ‘LCES’ is what you are
      really trying to say.

      If you say someone was trying to ‘mitigate LCES’… the actual implied action
      would be that they are trying to REDUCE the adherence to it and/or the effectiveness of it.

      Are you sure you don’t really mean to say “Enhance LCES”, in the context you
      are trying to use it?

      Reply

      • WTKTT – This is something I have said several times over the last two years but it has been awhile. You are really smart, logical and very sharp. And you put a ton of time into this thread to keep it more or less moving in the right direction. We all owe you a debt of gratitude. Lots of people contribute here, but without your input and the incalculable amount of time you put into your posts, this thread would have been dead in the water a long time ago. And if you aren’t smart, logical and very sharp, you have me fooled.

        Reply

      • One of the problems I am sensing in Holly’s perspective regarding Eric “serving” as a true Lookout is this.

        Eric was not a neutral observer. He had an agenda.

        There was a “plan.” It was being implemented by Eric, Musser, Cordes, and, to some extent, Ball.

        This whole “escape route” thing is just branding. It was not an “escape route;” It was a way to get the Granite Mountain Hotshots to the Boulder Springs Ranch in order to fulfill that plan.

        The Boulder Springs Ranch was not really a “Safety Zone,” as they are generally understood. It was just being called that. It was a place to get to in order to, then, accomplish that “plan.” Cordes actually asked his underling Task Force Trainee to send an engine or two to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure the Granite Mountain Hotshots got out of there safely.

        None of this was actually about taking an “Escape Route” to a “Safety Zone.” It was all about getting to a place in order to get to another place. Because of a “plan” that various people, including Eric Marsh, were investing resources in in order to accomplish it.

        Eric’s primary goal was for the Granite Mountain Hotshots to get, not to a Safety Zone, but to a place from thence to go further and accomplish a goal related to his need for the crew to further advance themselves in their need to prove their value to the City of Prescott.

        Eric was not a neutral observer of what was happening, as a true Lookout should be, given everything I have read/watched. He WANTED the crew to get to where he WANTED them to get.

        That, in my opinion, skewed his ability to truly objectively evaluate what was happening, regarding what the fire was doing and what the crew was doing.

        I also agree that we still have no idea, regardless of what Holly is saying, where, exactly, Eric actually was during all of this, and thus, what, exactly, he was seeing.

        I, am also indebted to WTKTT’s video overlay of what was happening at the time of, according to the SAIT, the beginning of the descent, to my thinking about this. In my opinion, if Eric REALLY had his OBJECTIVE eyes on both the fire and the crew at this time, I truly can’t imagine ANY way he would have ordered that crew to come down into that most-likely frickin train-wreck.

        My two cents worth.

        Reply

        • Maybe I should copy the above to the comments on that article about that interview.

          But maybe it is “too late” or “too off-topic.”

          Reply

          • Marti…

            I doubt Mr. Bill Gabbert would allow that comment to appear over on his ‘Wildfire Today’ site…. but I think you should give it a try… because I AGREE with everything you just said.

            Despite the agenda that Holly Neill is now pursuing… this latest fiasco with Brendan is NOT simply about “Was LCES being mitigated and or enhanced”.

            As you said… that is just a SMOKE SCREEN for what was REALLY going down that afternoon.

            If we were (finally) only going to get ONE little piece of ‘new’ information from Brendan… I think it would have more important to try and ascertain from him whether he heard the CALL-SIGN of whoever was urging Marsh/GM to “Hurry Up” at 4:27 PM in the Ronald Gamble video. Brendan was 20 feet away from Ronald Gamble at 4:27 and just sitting in the GM Supt. truck and ( just like Gamble ) listening to everything that was going down on the radio. It is still HIGHLY LIKELY he heard the same ENTIRE 4:27 radio exchange that Gamble did.

            The last comment over there on Bill Gabbert’s article is from HIM… and all he has to say about the commentary so far about HIS article is…

            (sigh)

            So I think he’s about to CLOSE the comments over there but you really should just “give it a shot”.

            Gabbert wasn’t ready for any detailed discussion even though he knew he was about to publish information that has always been withheld from investigators.

            Brendan himself pretty much states flat-out that he wanted to “clear things up with the wildland firefighting community” BEFORE the book he is being paid to participate in comes out.

            I still think that might have even been at the ‘suggestion’ of the publishers themselves. The very audience that is likely to BUY the book is the same audience that reads Gabbert’s “Widlfire Today” BLOG.

            Whether Brendan just ‘achieved his goal’ and has now ‘smoothed things over’ with the people most likely to jack up the book sales… I don’t know.

            It was a piss-poor interview… but maybe just the little ‘teaser’ of new information he gave is enough for THAT audience to say “See… he finally told the truth. He doesn’t know what happened. End of story”.

            Somehow I don’t think this new dog-and-pony event is anywhere near the “End of the story”.

            More like… “just another new chapter beginning”.

            I actually was dreading the day when some definitive proof would emerge that makes the “pull” theory the only viable one.

            I have always been telling calvin that he might be absolutely RIGHT and that Marsh might very well have made it down there to one of those ‘mounds’ that calvin was always talking about just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch…

            …but in the same breath I was always saying that any definitive proof that Marsh WAS that far ahead of the others and MAY have been just near the BSR was going to do nothing but raise more questions than it would answer.

            Well… here we are.

            No one over at Gabbert’s ‘Widlfire Today’ site seems to understand that.

            It’s all just “Congratulations Bill! Great article! Good for you! Thank you Brendan! Whoopee!”

            I keep waiting for his readers to do the “slowly I turned” dance and then say…

            “Wait a frickin’ minute here. If Marsh made it all the way down there… and he WAS now in a position to act as ‘lookout’ for their descent… then why are they all DEAD?”

            It is also absolutely the case that if Brendan heard this “Make your way down here” directive from Marsh… then he heard a lot more as well.

            He ( Brendan ) just keeps saying Prescott City Attorney Jon Paladini was simply ‘wrong’ with that detailed statement HE made to AZCENTRAL back in April of this year…

            …but even now… even with a perfect opportunity to finally clear all that business up… Brendan refuses to do so.

            Exactly WHAT was Paladini wrong about?

            The man had absolutely ZERO incentive to be making ANY of that up when he spoke to AZCENTRAL.

            Whether all those details he ( Paladini ) reported were ‘injected’ into the story by the middle-man Willis… or whether those details really were spoken by Brendan to Willis is the part that Brendan had the perfect opportunity to clear up a few days ago.

            But no.

            Once again… no matter what Brendan says about wanting to “DEFEND his brothers” and “stop people from telling stories”… he declines another perfect opportunity to do just that.

            Watching Brendan McDonough work his way through this and still try to stick to his ongoing agenda is like sitting there waiting for a football game to start, but the kicker just won’t show up.

            The kicker keeps saying he wants to kick the ball… and even keeps coming to the microphone to say he intends to… but he never really comes onto the field to do what he says he wants to do.

            Well… I’m just rambling now… but I think you get my gist.

            The only thing that is ever going to pry the real truth out of this Brendan McDonough guy is someone who actually knows how to conduct a real interview… and in a situation where there are real penalties for not telling the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

            It’s so very sad.

            Reply

            • Followup…

              Just shortly after I typed the message above… Bill Gabbert did, in fact, decide to just CLOSE his Brendan McDonough interview article to any more comments.

              He just didn’t like the conversation.

              Looks like Brendan picked EXACTLY the right site for his ‘softball interview’.

              Reply

        • Or maybe, since Holly, and the other SafetyFirst folks, having been pushing to LOOK UP (a truly justifiable endeavor) in order to see what systemic factors were/are at play in all of this, she just MIGHT be willing to look at and, thus, maybe SEE how a “plan” conjured up by a combination of an IHC Supervisor under enormous pressure, a Structural Protection Group Supervisor (we’ve already discussed THAT influence substantially), and an Operations Supervisor (under an Incident Commander who was, essentially, Three Sheets to the Wind of this fire) might be willing to at least contemplate the possibility that Eric Marsh might have been, skewed in his thinking about what the Granite Mountain Hotshots should do and the environment in which they should do that.

          Thinking about Gary’s recent writings about the Esperanza Fire and what happened at Twisp, writings that I have totally agreed with.

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 3, 2015 at 8:14 pm

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Or maybe, since Holly, and the other SafetyFirst folks,
            >> having been pushing to LOOK UP (a truly justifiable
            >> endeavor) in order to see what systemic factors were/are
            >> at play in all of this, she just MIGHT be willing to look at
            >> and, thus, maybe SEE how a “plan” conjured up by a
            >> combination of an IHC Supervisor under enormous
            >> pressure, a Structural Protection Group Supervisor (we’ve
            >> already discussed THAT influence substantially), and an
            >> Operations Supervisor (under an Incident Commander
            >> who was, essentially, Three Sheets to the Wind of this fire)
            >> might be willing to at least contemplate the possibility
            >> that Eric Marsh might have been, skewed in his thinking
            >> about what the Granite Mountain Hotshots should do and
            >> the environment in which they should do that.

            Death from above.

            Older men who know their days on the fireline are either over or about to be over and the key to them advancing TO or keeping the good-paying cush management jobs is for YOU to just ‘follow orders’.

            Buyer beware.

            It’s real. It happens ( if you let it ).

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> Thinking about Gary’s recent writings about the Esperanza
            >> Fire and what happened at Twisp, writings that I have
            >> totally agreed with.

            Agendas. Beware agendas. They can actually KILL you.

            I wonder if anyone has stopped to think, in the last 48 hours, what this Gabbert interview has now done for the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            Holly Neill practically came onto the comments section of that article and said…”Whoopee!… PROOF of what I have thought all along! Marsh WAS down by ‘the house’ and he DID have ‘eyes on the fire’ and he WAS the ‘lookout’ for those men and so everything looks better now in the world of LCES!”

            For any family member reading that… I don’t think their own initial reaction had any “Whoopee” in it at all. Far from it.

            The families are now having to accept the fact that Eric Marsh MIGHT have actually been in a position to be the ‘lookout’ for Jesse Steed and those other poor men that day… but they all (still) have empty chairs at their tables, anyway.

            That’s yet another hard pill for them to have to swallow.

            And yes… maybe the only “slowly I turned” moment now really does involve just TWO words.

            LOOK UP.

            Reply

        • I agree because I bought into Norb’s concept that they intended to backfire a dozer line. What and Norb say is the only thing that makes any sense.

          Reply

      • Yeah, Bill Gabbert has closed comments. I know it doesn’t matter, but I suppose it will give me some satisfaction to post my would-have-been comment here:

        “Bill, I’m guessing your sigh is aimed at WTKTT, and that your interview was not intended to bring up the details of the (non)investigation.

        I only wish more wildland fire fighters were more curious and angry about this incident and the investigation. I didn’t renew my red card this year. To be honest, I just don’t feel as comfortable as I used to. I feel disillusioned about wff culture’s commitment to safety. When I hear someone say this could have happened to any crew (and I’ve heard that), I don’t want to work on a fire with them. Heck, I felt like I was the only person in my work environment who was willing to read the SAIT, or at least carefully enough to be dissatisfied. If the facts of that day are unknowable, it’s not because this was an inevitable outcome. It’s because of a botched investigation that started with a ‘feel good’ agenda, ignored and gagged witnesses, and a wff culture that frowns upon asking too many difficult questions (or is blithely incurious).

        I’m grateful for the coverage that you provide through Wildfire Today, and for the forum here. I’m also grateful for the time and talent that concerned citizens such as WTKTT have invested in pulling lessons out of this tragedy. I’ve learned so much more from them than I did from the expensive and flawed SAIR. Sadly, the clearest lesson to me is that we seem to care more about comforting the current survivors than preventing the next tragedy.”

        Reply

        • Thank you for posting that here, Sitta.

          I would have hated to have not read it at least somewhere.

          Gabbert now says he’s just trying for a ‘cool down’ period.
          Says he might turn comments back on in a few days.

          I don’t know what ‘different outcome’ he expects if he does.

          He just published an article that proves a key witness in the deaths of 19 civil servants has ALWAYS been withholding evidence from investigators.

          What did he expect the comments to look like?

          Reply

    • Correction for the post above.

      I typed the word ‘with’ instead of ‘without’.

      Section above should have read like this…

      ———————————————————————————————
      So here is my ‘LCES’ breakdown ( doesn’t match yours, sorry )…

      L = Non-existent ( if they had one, why are they dead? )
      C = Off-the-charts piss-poor
      E = Hastily chosen classic ‘never go there’ deathtrap.
      S = Over 6 million in fire damages. Probably not survivable WITHOUT a deployment.
      ———————————————————————————————-

      Reply

  159. Just a Quickie (??) Regarding the Sawyers and the Current Timeline Re-thinking Going On.

    I’m supposed to be moving (or at least finishing the moving-to-camp-out-over-there Phase of it), but I did decide, after reading WTKTT’s very good long comments below regarding how things could have been after reading “The Interview”™.

    I decided to go back and look at Chris’s photos again, to see what they may say regarding all of this. Unfortunately, after I had finished my final sequencing of them here in January 2014, I hadn’t really solidified all that in terms of notes in Lightroom on these photos (which I had re-timestamped copies of, but wasn’t sure if they included the final, difficult, re-sequencing we did (and forever thanks to Calvin for helping with that!!)). I hope that’s readable.

    So that meant I had to go back to Chapter Four and re-read all of that stuff. Which was a good thing to do, anyway. And, via doing that, I decided that the most important photographs/videos I am discussing below have accurately adjusted timestamps.

    I’m not going to go into too much detail, but, in terms of the question about whether or not “some” Sawyers may have gone with Eric to scout/improve/whatever the route, what I’m looking at says it’s not impossible. Which is, frankly, what I wanted to know.

    Because the timing IS pretty tight.

    I want, for starters to include the list, posted by Sitta on January 24, 2014 at 3:02 AM (What that says about US is telling!!), of Qualified Sawyers.

    “J-Resource Orders, page 207 of 213:

    GMIHC manifest, including the quals of each crew member. Here’s the list of qualified sawyers:
    Steed FALC
    Whitted FALC
    Carter FALC
    Marsh FALB
    Ashcraft FALB
    Rose FALB
    Norris FALB
    Mackenzie FALA
    Turbyfill FALA
    McDonough FALA
    Thurston FALA

    Faller A – C (starts at A, most experienced is a C — can handle bigger trees and more complex felling situations). None of the others should have been operating saws, unless they’d gotten qualified since the crew manifest had been written.”

    That list didn’t include Dustin Deford, who was very much a Sawyer. But since he’s not on the list, I don’t know what level he was qualified at.

    (Oh and by the way, an aside, Jesse Steed WAS in some of Chris’s photos and in the first video, contrary to what Bob Powers wrote. Which also says that by 3:40, when Chris started shooting the photos and videos of the “gathering,” Jesse was SEATED in front of Chris.)

    Of the Sawyers in Chris’s photos/videos of the “gathering, who were actually WORKING as Sawyers on the Yarnell Fire (which excludes Steed and Marsh, for starters), I have been able to identify Ashcraft FALB, Norris FALB, Turbyfill FALA, and Deford.

    Two of the HIGHEST qualified Sawyers, Clayton Whitted and Travis Carter, are not, as far as I can TELL (but I could easily be missing something because I haven’t been able to identify everybody in those photos and videos) seen in that collection.

    Before Chris photographed/video’d this gathering, he photographed a collection of Sawyers/Swampers (I would assume, all things considered) coming UP, from where they had been earlier working BELOW, at 3:30 PM, ten minutes before Chris started documenting the “gathering”. These photos included Ashcraft, Norris, Wade Parker (who is not on the list of certified sawyers but is seen in close association with Ashcraft in all of this), and, I think, Anthony Rose, who I think is also in Chris’s video. All of the fire-fighters in this collection of them hiking UP from where they had been working BELOW, are seen in Chris’s collection of the “gathering.”

    So what about the others? At 2:20 PM, Chris photographed two fire-fighters wearing chaps (an obvious indicator of being a Sawyer™), standing on a rock watching a VLAT drop. I haven’t, as of yet, been able to identify them, because they don’t show up in any of Chris’s other photographs/videos.

    So, to bring this back around to WTKTT’s ponderings about potential timeline changes, and whether or not they might possibly include Eric meeting on the ground with Steed around 3:30-ish PM, discussing heading out to scout/improve a route (I won’t call it an Escape Route because, even though it might have been/ be being called that, it actually WASN’T), I think it could be POSSIBLE (via the visual record we have) that some FALC-Qualified Sawyers might actually have made it up to that place where Jesse and Eric MIGHT have been discussing scouting that route. And, thus, might have gone with Eric. I’m not saying I think this happened. I’m just saying, I don’t see anything in the visual evidence that indicates that would have been IMPOSSIBLE. Which is what WTKTT’s musings sent me off to try to confirm.

    Holly is now writing that she has seen cuttings near the dozer line that was put in from the Helms Ranch to the Deployment Site. She is saying she doesn’t yet know when these cuttings were made, and that she is researching that.

    I am just documenting what, from the visual record we have so far, is possible and what is not.

    I am also, to be perfectly honest, still thinking about Musser’s possible placement into these timelines. Always.

    Namaste

    Reply

    • Marti. The hotshot in Mackenzies photo, that is watching the vlat drop and wearing red chaps is seen again in Mackenzie video 0888. He is in the far right lower corner at the 8 second mark. At least it could be the same sawyer, based on the red chaps.

      Thanks for the mention regarding sequencing those pics.

      Reply

      • Thank you calvin!!

        That’s the one I ORIGINALLY thought was Clayton Whitted, because of his facial structure. And then somebody (possibly you?) said it was Turbyfill.

        And so I looked and looked and looked today and couldn’t actually tell if that red “stuff” I was seeing in that video was actually his chaps or something else. I’m still not 100% sure.

        Reply

        • Not knowing who was who I did not know that Steed had been Identified in a Photo. Thanks Marti and welcome back

          This is my Thought on Marsh taking Sawyers on a Scout. To me that would be Highly unlikely as he did not know what the route would be and starting a cut trail that might not work out with already tired sawyers. Once the trail was marked and scouted then bring the Crew with Sawyers in front and follow the flagging cutting as needed to open access. On the many fires I have been on that is the general way it is done. Even if Marsh took 2 Sawyers and swappers the Crew would have caught up to them some where in the Canyon with the amount of cutting they had to do, they would never have kept up with Marsh flagging trail.

          Cant prove it but my experience tells me the entire crew stayed with Steed while Marsh checked a route to the Ranch that makes more science. He had 2 choices follow the 2 track or go down the canyon I think he made the choice to go down the Canyon when he Got to the saddle.
          He was scouting a route not cutting out a trail When scouting you some times hit a dead end. If his plan was to go to the Ranch he should have scouted the route that morning after the crew went to work not at the last minuet.

          If he knew the route he was going to take he would have taken the whole crew not just a couple of sawyers. That makes no science at all.
          My experience tells me the entire crew was with Steed.

          As for the Cut brush from Helms could have been several things from clearing brush near the ranch fuels reduction
          to Opening areas for Cattle or trails by the ranch people.
          Hard to say. The sawyers would not have gone clear to the Ranch in that time and tried to cut trail back.
          Not Logical.

          Some one might say the cut trail to the ranch my answer why would they go back to the crew and not wait for them.
          Not Logical. They also did not have time to make that kind of progress in Heavy Chemise brush 6 to 10 ft tall.

          Reply

          • I think what you are saying makes a WHOLE lot of science/sense.

            I just wanted to filter out what was possible/impossible.

            Jesse was easy, given his red helmet. I wanted to include that because WTKTT was trying to imagine a “meeting” face-to-face between Marsh and Steed right before this “gathering.”. I’m thinking that’s possible, but this shows it would have had to be quick, I think.-

            The other thing WTKTT is imagining is that what Eric said in the video, referring to “comfort level,” might refer to that face-to-face conversation.

            I don’t think it does, because Eric specifically refers to a “call” referencing that.

            I really appreciate WTKTT’s trying to flesh this out.

            PS Bob. When I was reading all those Chapter 4 threads, I read you writing that your wife was struggling with trying to figure out these digital camera things. I have them pretty down pat. I’m willing to help up her!

            Except I REALLY have to move right now. Am willing to contact you in a couple of,weeks regarding this.

            Namaste!

            Reply

            • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 3, 2015 at 6:55 pm

              >> Marti said…
              >>
              >> The other thing WTKTT is imagining is that what Eric
              >> said in the video, referring to “comfort level,” might
              >> refer to that face-to-face conversation.
              >>
              >> I don’t think it does, because Eric specifically refers
              >> to a “call” referencing that.

              The moment I hit ‘send’ on the ‘breakdown’ I was trying to do and I realized I hadn’t qualified that statement… I KNEW you were going to catch that!

              Thank you, Marti.

              YES… despite what I said in that potential ‘breakdown’ about what MIGHT have happened ‘face-to-face’ between Marsh and Steed ( and really didn’t go out over crew-net for Brendan or Blue Ridge Hotshots or anyone else to ever hear )… what we ACTUALLY hear Marsh saying later in the ( actual time ) 3:53:15 PM MacKenzie video is Eric Marsh saying to Jesse Steed…

              “When I CALLED you before asking you what your comfort level was”.

              So yea… even though there MIGHT have been some discussion of ‘comfort level’ regarding any southerly ‘move’ while Marsh and Steed were still ‘face to face’ and before Marsh took off south… there obviously had to be ANOTHER ‘call’ from Marsh to Steed that continued the ‘comfort level’ discussions sometime BEFORE what we then hear at 3:55:15 PM in that MacKenzie video.

              So why is there no report coming from Brendan about hearing THAT crew-net radio transmission… sometime just before the MacKenzie videos and the radio calls we hear for ourselves?

              Brendan is still ‘sand-bagging’.

              If we are now to believe he DID hear an actual “Make your way down here” radio exchange on the crew-net coming from Marsh to Steed… then there MUST be a lot of other things he heard that he is STILL unwilling to talk about.

              Brendan in still in ‘minimal’ mode.

              He was there for even his first interviews.

              How do I appear to be cooperating while still just suppling the absolute minimal amount of information possible?

              Well… he’s STILL there. ‘Minimum information mode’.

              Just enough to solve whatever ‘problem’ HE perceives himself to have been presented with.

              Only now it’s just about ( in his own words ) “setting the record straight with the wildland fire community” so they will buy the BOOK he is being paid to participate in.

              Reply

      • It can be really hard to identify them. I actually have a LIST of the colors of the rolls of tape on their backs.

        Reply

      • And that still doesn’t change my observation that there are two FALC (highest qualified) Sawyers who are not seen in these photos and videos. Whether that means or doesn’t mean they may or may not have accompanied Eric Marsh on his scouting and/or improving the route is still undetermined and still not impossible.

        Which is what I was setting out to determine.

        Reply

        • I am with you, Marti. Unless we have more ‘information’… it’s not really possible to say it was ‘impossible’ that Marsh didn’t take some ‘sawyers’ with him that afternoon…

          …but I am also totally with Mr. Powers here.

          You just can’t ignore the experience and the common sense talking there.

          For all the reasons/examples that Mr. Powers gives above… it remains HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Marsh took anyone at all with him for what I am now going to label “The EMERGENCY scouting trip”.

          It still remains MOST LIKELY that Marsh just ‘took off south’, by himself, and did what he was known for ( and exactly what he did that morning in the exact way that Tex and Joy described his morning behavior ).

          He forged ahead like a mountain goat at top speed and was *probably* tying pink ribbons onto things.

          It is an absolute tragedy that, in their paranoia and haste to remove the bodies just because they were so afraid the news media would get any ‘pictures’ of the site… that anyone was allowed to cut that dozer line in the dead of night from the Boulder Springs Ranch out to the deployment site.

          Whatever FOOTPRINTS even MIGHT have been there to discover were then totally obliterated even before the police investigators arrived.

          That should have NEVER been allowed to happen.

          Reply

      • I’m sitting here thinking about how much I’d be willing to invest in making it possible for you, Holly, Bob, WTKTT, and whoever else to meet in person for a day and hash this stuff out. I really believe we could work our way eventually to finding ourselves landing on the same page. We’re all sort of Ten Degrees of Separation.

        I love how all this online interaction with the data and with each other is changing things. But it’s still kind of limited when it comes to depth and real-life interpersonal communication.

        Namaste!

        Reply

        • Well, you won’t have to invest in me traveling, I do that just for the heck of it. The only reason I wouldn’t want to meet with Holly is because I now owe her a bottle, not just a shot. Although I didn’t technically call her an idiot, I said she would be an idiot only if she met certain criteria. 🙂

          Reply

            • Actually, I said that because, ACTUALLY, I really appreciate what Holly Neill and Safety Matters have been doing regarding challenging and “Speaking Truth to Power” to the System.

              As we are all seeing, the System stinks. And it’s getting Wildland Firefighters killed, even as people living irresponsibly in the Wildland Urban Interface are also getting Firefighters killed. It’s like hand-in-glove, what’s going on. Along with decreasing funding and fights over funding for both Wildland Firefighting and responsible Wildland Fire Prevention. All of that is putting the lives of firefighters more and more at risk.

              Including those normally Structural Fire-fighters who are cross-training in Wildland Fire (including many here in New Mexico, I am now realizing) without really “getting” what Wildland Fire is really all about. I think this is going to play itself out for awhile.

              But I’m really disagreeing with Holly on her interpretation of this interview and what it means. I think the Incident Management Team/Teams failed on this fire. But I also agree that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed did, also. And I think that was related to what was happening in Prescott.

              I’m thinking that Holly is so focused on what went wrong ABOVE Eric on this fire, that she can’t see how Eric could have also been neglectful in his duties on this fire when the sh*t was hitting the fan. So she’s now trying to defend him as trying to “be the lookout” even though he completely and fatally failed at doing that.

              And her continual usage of the terms “escape route” and “safety zone” when neither of them actually WAS that tells me she doesn’t actually realize the enormity of the cover-up of the reality that was actually, even then, going on.

              I don’t know if she has even read anything I/we have been writing about the “Hail Mary Plan” that was being implemented by Eric Marsh, Gary Cordes, Paul Musser, and Cory Ball. It’s like she is innocently trying to maintain a complete unwillingness to look at, much less acknowledge the importance of, exactly that.

              Reply

  160. Just for the record, it is irrelevant to me how many times Holly NEILL cites the instance last year when she was right and others here were not … that particular instance does not establish credibility for what she is saying at the present time. (Was a nice try … but hell no it doesn’t.) And I am grateful to WTKTT and Mr. Powers for pointing out how her current assertions — as well as her subsequent attempts to explain those assertions — do not pass the smell test. Yes, “THANK YOU” to both of you. It is evident to me how her examples of LCES being met in the actions of Eric Marsh and his advocacy of a death trap (that glaring, indisputable death trap which she persists in calling an escape route) is such drivel that I’m inclined to believe the only sentence she wrote here that’s reasonable is the one where she states, “I’d better go drool on myself now.”

    Reply

    • JS: It is evident to me how her examples of LCES being met in the actions of Eric Marsh and his advocacy of a death trap (that glaring, indisputable death trap which she persists in calling an escape route) is such drivel…

      Mr. Stout:
      I have not made a judgment on whether Marsh was On It as a scout or an escape route designator or lookout. I do not persist in calling the route an escape route, it isn’t my call to make. Marsh called it the escape route when he said in audio recordings: “escape route from this morning” and in his final transmission: “Our escape route has been cut off”.

      My interest lies in the fact that McDonough now admits that Marsh was scouting the route ahead of the crew and he called them down, from below. This is a piece of a puzzle we can finally put together. Looking at it objectively, it is an important piece of a puzzle now being put into place: the location of and the actions of Eric Marsh during this critical timeframe.

      If Marsh was attempting to put LCES in place, I’d like to be aware of it. The official reports seem set on assuming that there was no lookout, no communications and no scouted, marked escape route. We now know differently. Should this be corrected and does it matter or not? It matters to me because I’m interested in an accurate account of what actually DID happen and WHY.

      I am not defending or advocating for Marsh’s choice of escape routes, or his ability as a DIVS to scout an escape route or to put all of LCES in place. You’re putting words in my mouth. Although as a DIVS, I expect he was well aware of these things. I’m simply saying that it looks like he was attempting to do it.

      It is one thing to say Marsh threw all of LCES out the window and ignored it completely. It’s another thing entirely to say he attempted to put LCES in place, and something went terribly wrong from there. From a Lessons Learned standpoint, this is important for me to know. You may not care. That’s fine, I get it.

      LCES clearly wasn’t effective, DUH. It seems like you have shut the door here in a blunt, obtuse and black and white way. And called it good. To me it leads to more questions. Which I will continue to ask.

      And for any of you who haven’t done so already, I suggest you go to Yarnell and back up your absolute conclusions with your own real work instead of sitting at your computer with your Google Earth, criticizing and drooling over someone else’s hard work while hiding behind your initials or an acronym.

      And sure J. Stout, feel free to take ugly shots at me. Do what you’re good at.

      At least Olson offered me a good shot.

      Holly NEILL

      Reply

        • You do not seem to want to talk to me Holly
          So Ill say first You cleared up your position.

          J Stout is Correct

          I have seen no LCES In any thing that Marsh and GM did.

          No way there was a Lookout and the Crew walked that far into the canyon to run face first into the fire. I Lookout should be able to see the entire fire and the crew at the same time.

          The Communications by Marsh as the Div. Sup. was a total lack of protocol. He moved his division with out discussing it with OPS He had no communication with adjoining Forces
          who would have told him of the fire progress.

          Escape route was no more than a flagged route thru Brush
          They were calling a route which I would call flagging in brush which cause the slow down of the crew and left them trapped in a Brush filled canyon.

          The Ranch was a poor excuse for a safety zone as there was no way they could have survived there with out deploying which is not what a safety zone should be

          I based those observations on my 33 years of experience.

          I do not have to go to Yarnell. I have seen the pictures and I have seen 100 canyons like that and I would have gone in none of them with a fire that close, for any reason on Gods Green Earth

          Reply

      • Yes, but I apologized sort of, by saying I would spring for the bottle. And even if I don’t agree with you, I have to respect the amount of time you put into the overall effort. I do think all angles need to be considered and evaluated for their merit.

        I do have one really big question for you however, if you will indulge me. What grade would you give Eric Marsh as both a division supervisor and a hotshot crew boss since in my opinion he never really turned the crew over to Steed to run on the Yarnell Hill Fire? If you think he did, I would still like to know what grade you would give him for what you think he did do on that fire?

        I can empathize with Marsh, but I do have to give him an F. His crew is dead.

        Your posts have left me with the opinion that you are desperately trying to find a way to vindicate Marsh. Are you?

        Reply

    • Looks like I am blocked again over on wild Fire today I can not respond on the Interview tried yesterday and just a while ago I was able to respond to every thing else.

      Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 2, 2015 at 2:27 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> WTKTT—–Holly asked you severial questions over on Wild Fire Today
      >> if you haven’t been there.

      I saw them. They aren’t really questions. She’s just ‘declaring’ things the way she usually does and anything with a question mark appears to just be rhetorical stuff that doesn’t really expect ‘an answer’.

      She’s also back to ‘syllable counting’ like she was when she first announced ( with MacLean ) what they thought was being said in that 1613 Panebaker video and then ended up retracting it when so many people disagreed with her translation of the audio.

      She’s still counting 7 syllables in the phrase “jus checkin it out to see”, which is actually typical for someone who doesn’t really fully understand a southern drawl.

      Example: To a Yankee… the three words “jus checkin it” breaks down ( in their vocal map ) to FOUR complete syllables…

      (1)jus (2)check (3)in (4)it.

      But to a true southerner… the same phrase is often only just THREE syllables.

      The “checkin it” part often just comes out as the single word “checknit” ( no space or
      vocal separation ) which, itself, only has TWO syllables (1)check (2)nit.

      So that makes the SAME PHRASE only have THREE syllables, not FOUR…

      (1)jus (2)check (3)nit

      Whatever. It was an absurd argument she was making in the first place when she started ‘syllable counting’ and using it to refute criticism of her original published audio translation… but “that’s her story and she’s stickin’ to it”, as they say.

      The GOOD news is that if what Brendan McDonough has now finally admitted to hearing ( which he withheld from investigators ) is TRUE… then the issue of whether or not Marsh was actually out ‘ahead’ of Steed and the Crew is no longer just based on the interpretation of an audio phrase in some background capture of an Air Study video.

      However… Holly Neill is still clinging to her “house” interpretation and taking that to mean there is still PROOF Marsh was very near the Boulder Springs Ranch circa 1614.

      Maybe he was… maybe he wasn’t.

      Nothing Brendan McDonough has even now admitted to hearing establishes that one way or the other. Throw out any reference to any interpretation of any audio track and we still have no idea WHERE Marsh really was in the critical moments leading up to the deployment.

      Holly Neill seems so convinced that her original interpretation of hearing the word “house” is true that she is also now of the belief that Marsh must have had “eyes on the fire” as the men were heading down.

      Example: One of her postings from yesterday over at Gabbert’s site…

      >> On September 1, 2015 at 12:04 pm, Holly Neill said…
      >>
      >> I am of the opinion that Eric Marsh was somewhere down below, in the
      >> vicinity of the ranch house, with eyes on the fire, acting as lookout for
      >> the crew, while they came down in the blind.

      Again… nothing Brendan has even recently said proves this one way or the other.

      A part of me still does NOT want to believe that Eric Marsh really did have “eyes on the fire” and/or was actually telling those men they could depend on him as a “lookout” for their descent… and that, in turn, ended up one of the reasons they decided to come down.

      A part of me still just wants to believe that while Marsh *might* have been out ahead of them… he was not THAT far ahead and was so ‘bogged down’ himself in head-high Manzanita trying to find his way to that Ranch himself that there’s no way he could have seen what was coming there just to the northeast. Smoke, fer sure, but no visibility on the flamefront itself and how FAST it was approaching.

      Any other scenario just remains truly disturbing to me.

      Any scenario that has Marsh anywhere east of the mouth of that box canyon *AND* with any kind of actual “eyes on the fire” while the others were descending just means that he failed one of the most important jobs in Widland Firefighting in a horrific way.

      It would mean he let 18 men he was supposed to be a ‘lookout’ for walk right into a deathtrap… and then he committed suicide by JOINING them.

      I even asked Neill for her ‘take’ on what seems to be her own opinion that Marsh was acting as a full ‘lookout’ for them ( complete with ‘eyes on the fire’ ) as they descended…and was she ready to admit that if that was the case… that Marsh failed that task in a tragic way.

      She gave some kind of answer about how it was more conceivable in her mind that Marsh might have fucked up as a lookout than for her to ever believe that 19 (supposedly) trained WFFs would be walking through a fuel filled box canyon WITHOUT having a lookout.

      Actually… here is what she said over there on Gabbert’s site…

      ———————————————————————-
      WTKTT said: To accept the theory that Eric Marsh WAS out ahead of Steed and the crew… and he WAS acting as their ‘forward lookout’ that afternoon also involves accepting the reality that he obviously failed that task in a very tragic way.

      Holly Neill replied: Posting a lookout and then having something go wrong from there, is far more conceivable to me than all 19 firefighters walking down in the blind together, with no eyes on the fire at all. This is coming from my wildland firefighter perspective.
      ———————————————————————–

      Then she “picked up her toys and went home”… so I guess there’s no use even responding.

      ———————————————————————–
      Holly Neill said: With all of this being said, I am going to x out of follow up comments. The article was originally written about Mr. McDonough and I respect it as such. Even though I have participated in turning it into a hashing of the details, I would like to stop now and respect the interview for what it is. Thanks.
      ———————————————————————–

      Reply

      • Tried to respond to the lookout thing with
        1. The fire spread and the phase video that shows Fire less than a half mile from the crew 30 Min. before the burn over
        2 The statement from Steed not Marsh we are in front of the flaming front
        As you say if Marsh could see the Fire which a lookout has to be able to do why was the crew not warned 25 or 30 minuets before the entrapment? That is my big question and above them the fire was already to the ridge 20 minuets before the were entrapped a lookout needs to see the whole fire and the crew or he is worthless to the crew.
        Any way can’t get on there to say my peace.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 2, 2015 at 4:52 pm

          >> Bob Powers wrote…
          >>
          >> Tried to respond to the lookout thing…
          >>
          >> Any way can’t get on there to say my peace.

          I’m actually surprised Mr. Gabbert allowed any comments on that article at all, to tell you the truth.

          I was sure he would just make it one of those “One and Done” postings like he does sometimes and throw the “Comments Are Closed” switch in WordPress at the same time he is publishing the article.

          Like he did when John Maclean and Holly Neill posted a ‘comeback’ to some of the criticisms of their findings back in January of 2014.

          Maclean and Neill felt the need to sort of ‘back off’ some of their statements about what they thought they were hearing in audio recordings when so many people started disagreeing with what they said they were hearing ( and basing important conclusions on )… but Bill Gabbert never allowed anyone to comment on what they said.

          WildFire Today
          Article Title: Update from John Maclean about Yarnell Hill Fire
          Posted on January 29, 2014 by Bill Gabbert
          http://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/29/update-from-john-maclean-about-yarnell-hill-fire/

          From the article…
          ——————————————————————————
          John N. Maclean and Holly Neill sent us some updated information about their quest to ferret out details about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire the day 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed outside of Yarnell, Arizona, June 30, 2013. The text below builds on their previous information that we published.

          The background transmissions add a great deal to the picture of what happened, and what likely happened, during those final minutes. Obsessing about a single word, “house,” is appropriate up to a point. That’s the word Holly and I and many others hear in that one of several conversations we disclosed; it is not the word everyone hears.
          ——————————————————————————

          NO COMMENTS WERE EVER ALLOWED ON THIS PUBLIC POSTING

          Reply

  162. I agree that Mcdonough has a credibility problem. IAOI he is being truthful abut Marsh being ahead of the crew I have a couple thoughts/questions.

    1. Mcdonough interview says
    Do you know why the crew left the safety of a previously burned “black” area and decided to walk through unburned brush toward the ranch?

    “I have no clue,” says McDonough. “I know they were asked to come to Yarnell if it was possible and Eric said, ‘No, we are going to stay here in the black.’ And for some reason they left.”

    Next paragraph
    He adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.

    So it seems to me that after Marsh says they are commited to black. He then leaves to scout ahead and calls back and tells Steed to make their way down. And this would have been reported over the radio, crew or other.

    Mcdonough seems to be opening up that he heard this whole exchange, but doesn’t have a clue as to why they were moving?

    2. If Marsh was moving ahead of the crew circa 1550 when he is heard in conversation with OPS1, it brings a real meaning to the statement “trying to work my way off the top” In my opinion he is directly communicating his movement. And he specifically states I and not we. Which could mean that the ER that was chosen did NOT have to be cleared with chainsaws to make it passable, right? And there is evidence of 3 sawyers sitting at the photo spot, however, over half of the crew is not in any of the photos.

    Thanks

    Reply

    • Reply to calvin post on September 2, 2015 at 11:44 am

      >> calvin said…
      >>
      >> I agree that Mcdonough has a credibility problem. IAOI he is being truthful
      >> abut Marsh being ahead of the crew I have a couple thoughts/questions.

      For the sake of discussion… I think we have to assume this little ‘trickle’ of new
      information and this small insight into what Brendan has always been ‘withholding’
      from investigators might be his ‘last gasp’… and all we will ever hear from him
      ( unless Marcia McKee’s appeal in her wrongful death lawsuit succeeds and it ends
      up going to trial ).

      I think we also have to assume that regardless of how ‘tailored’ and ‘cherry picked’ this new tidbit of information is from McDonough… he was, at least, telling Bill Gabbert the truth.

      And notice I said ‘for the sake of discussion’.

      This most recent fiasco with Brendan has done nothing but make me realize I ( me, personally ) don’t really trust a single word that comes out of his mouth anymore… but that is neither here nor there. At some point ( in order to even discuss something ) you have to take someone at their word.

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> ( Quotes from the recent Bill Gabbert interview with McDonough )
      >>
      >> So it seems to me that after Marsh says they are commited to black.
      >> He then leaves to scout ahead and calls back and tells Steed to make
      >> their way down. And this would have been reported over the radio,
      >> crew or other.

      The big question I have ( which Bill Gabbert didn’t even have the skills to
      determine from Brendan ) would be… “Calls back” WHEN??

      What TIME is this “call back” supposed to have taken place?

      It matters. Since TIME was of the essence that afternoon, and for this ‘risky’ move to the BSR… then if Marsh waited until he had made it all the way to close to the BSR before even initiating the ‘gaggle up’ back at the anchor point… then that was a fatal mistake on his part.

      That means he just wasted the time those men were actually going to need to stay alive that day.

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> Mcdonough seems to be opening up that he heard this whole exchange,
      >> but doesn’t have a clue as to why they were moving?

      I can actually buy the theory that the DECISION to even TRY and make it to the Boulder Springs Ranch did, in fact, take place ‘face-to-face’ between Marsh and Steed there at the anchor point… as Brendan seems to even be trying to suggest in this recent interview with Gabbert with his “two-feet away” blurb.

      Marsh HAD, in fact, made his way south back towards the anchor point for the sole reason of meeting up with Brian Frisby for that second face-to-face Marsh had requested.

      So maybe for just the first time since early that morning… Marsh was now actually physically back together with Jesse Steed… and the shit now was hitting the fan.

      Let’s forget ALL of this ongoing confusion about the FACT that both the SAIT and the ADOSH reports said, unequivocally, that Brendan McDonough did, in fact, (quote) “Hear Marsh and Steed discussing their options about whether to leave the safe black”.

      Brendan has now practically outright REFUTED that written statement from BOTH of the official investigation reports… so for the moment… let’s give him the benefit of the doubt and assume those ‘official reports’ should have never even said he heard any such thing and those statements on their part were complete bullshit.

      Here’s what I believe *might* have happened then ( most likely face-to-face and OFF the radio )…

      1. Steed gets that 3:39 PM call from Frisby. Frisby says he had trouble contacting Marsh at that moment in time so he called Steed instead. Frisby is now telling Steed he is NOT going to make it up there for the requested face-to-face because he now has Brendan in his UTV and he’s going to evacuate back east because of the way the fire has picked up. Then the ‘Do you want us to move your vehicles?’ conversations quickly followed.

      2. Marsh either overhears this, or he doesn’t. Maybe he was actually talking to Paul Musser WHILE this other “I’ve got Brendan and I’m not coming up there” conversation was taking place between Frisby and Steed. Either way… within minutes of Frisby informing Steed he is evacuating Brendan… both Marsh and Steed ARE aware it is happening.

      3. Only now do Marsh and Steed turn their attention to the NEXT big thing… as in… “Okay… ALL of our efforts up here are now officially worthless and pointless. Brendan is being evacuated. They are moving our vehicles away from where we parked them down there. ALL of Yarnell is now under an emergency evacuation notice. So WHAT do WE do NOW?”

      4. OPS2 Paul Musser’s ‘availability check’ is still ‘ringing’ in Marsh’s ears. It’s possible the ONLY reason Marsh said “we are committed to the ridge” during that Musser conversation was because he hadn’t quite yet been informed, or fully realized, that Brian Frisby was NOT coming up for a ‘face-to-face’ and there would be no possibility of any further action up there on that work they had been doing all day. The times are so close together here that ‘seconds counted’ and it mattered which radio call was coming in FIRST ( and within seconds of each other ) at that point.

      5. It is ALSO possible that during this same timeframe… there was ANOTHER ‘follow up’ request coming in to Marsh and/or Steed asking if they could (as Brendan now seems to be testifying to hearing ) “Make it to Yarnell, if possible”. That SECOND ‘request’ might have come in independently from Musser’s and it *might* have been from SPGS1 Cordes and related to that now-in-motion emergency dozer line plan down there to protect Glen Ilah.

      6. As I have also said before… at this point in time… Eric Marsh himself could have been the original ‘author’ of this ’emergency dozer line’ plan as he turned his attention to the SOUTH for the first time that day and thought he saw ‘possibilities’ down there by Glen Ilah.

      7. Regardless of whether it was Musser’s ‘availability check’ still ringing in his ears and/or some ‘just hatched’ new plan for emergency dozer line near Glen Ilah…

      This is now the first time ( still face-to-face with Steed ) that Marsh proposes a move to the Boulder Springs Ranch and this is now the first time ( face-to-face ) that he asks Jesse Steed what his ‘comfort level’ would be for such a move. We have no idea what Steed’s response was but based on what happens next I would venture a guess it was something like this…

      “Gee… I don’t know, Eric. Nobody gave us any maps. We haven’t ‘scouted’ this southern escape route you are proposing using. We don’t know where that mid-slope two-track really goes after it rounds that bend down there or whether it really does go all the way to that Ranch. My ‘comfort level’ is NOT HIGH’.

      8. Based on Steed not having a HIGH COMFORT LEVEL, Marsh says…

      “Okay. Fair enough. Tell ya what. I’ll take off south and SCOUT this thing and if it looks good, I’ll call you back and report about it and we’ll check your comfort level again… how about that?”

      9. Steed agrees to this… and now we have the “tools up… smoke ’em if ya got ’em” REST moments that were captured in photos and videos up there at the anchor point. Marsh had taken off south and they were just sitting there waiting for Marsh to report back.

      10. In the Christopher MacKenzie videos… we actually DO hear fragments of Marsh ‘reporting back’ and asking Steed about his ‘comfort level’ ( again ) and Marsh actually refers to a PRIOR ‘comfort level’ discussion. That PRIOR ‘comfort level’ discussion might have been the one that took place ‘face-to-face’ before Marsh even took off south to do any ‘scouting’.

      >> calvin also wrote…
      >>
      >> If Marsh was moving ahead of the crew circa 1550 when he is heard
      >> in conversation with OPS1, it brings a real meaning to the statement
      >> “trying to work my way off the top”

      Yes. It does. If there is now CONFIRMATION that the “pull” theory is the only correct one, and that Marsh WAS way ahead ( perhaps FAR, far ahead ) of Steed and the others… then the ‘clock on the wall’ actually dictates that Marsh MUST have been already heading SOUTH by the time had that “Workin’ my way off the top” conversation with OPS1 Todd Abel as captured in the Caldwell video.

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> In my opinion he is directly communicating his movement.
      >> And he specifically states I and not we.

      The ‘disturbing’ part about this confirmation that Marsh was, in fact, already heading SOUTH and “Workin’ his way off the top ( of the ridge )” as he was talking to OPS1 Abel is that this is the SAME conversation where OPS1 Todd Abel testified made him SURE that Eric and the others were “in the safe black” and the SAME conversation where we then hear OPS1 Todd Abel ORDER Marsh to “Hunker and be safe”.

      That means that even though Marsh SAID “I’m workin’ my way off the top”… OPS1 Abel apparently had no idea what that really meant and Marsh wasn’t stopping to explain it to him. OPS1 Abel swears that following that radio conversation… he was only SURE of one thing… that Marsh and GM were “in the safe black” near the anchor point and they were going to STAY there.

      Marsh was already actively ‘scouting’ a route that they would use to NOT “Hunker and be safe”… but he was NOT actually telling OPS1 Abel what his real plans were even at that moment he was speaking to him on the radio.

      We still have not heard ANY testimony from anyone about what Marsh’s actual RESPONSE to OPS1 Todd Abel was following that radio conversation. It was over an open TAC channel, and plenty of people MUST have heard that exchange between Abel and Marsh ( including Brendan McDonough )… but no one has ever admitted to hearing it… not even after the Caldwell recording of that conversation came to light.

      If Marsh’s response to Abel to close that radio call was just “Yea… ok… we’ll do what you say and hunker and be safe” instead of “…the hell we will. I’m scouting a route to the ranch right now so we can get the hell off this ridge”… then that would mean Marsh WAS purposely hiding his current plan to move his entire Division resources OUT of their assigned division from his direct Field Operations Supervisor.

      >> calvin also said…
      >>
      >> Which could mean that the ER that was chosen did NOT have to be
      >> cleared with chainsaws to make it passable, right?

      As I thought would be the case… if the ‘pull’ theory is now the only viable one then there are, in fact, a lot more questions and this is just one of them.

      If the moment Marsh knew Frisby wasn’t going to make the face-to-face is the moment Marsh ‘took off’ to the south because the ‘next move’ ( to him ) was obvious… then it’s a wonder he did NOT at least take a ‘squad’ with him ( and 1 or 2 sawyers ).

      I mean… why would he NOT do this if he already KNEW that come hell or high water he was now going to get those men to town?

      The fact that he would just let everyone else sit there at that anchor point for what would turn out to be the precious minutes they were going to need to actually stay alive a little bit later is patently absurd.

      If Marsh had already made up his mind what was going to happen and he knew he would end up just ordering Steed to do what he wanted no matter how many discussions had to take place… then why didn’t he just tell Steed and the men to ‘gaggle up’ immediately and ‘follow him’ down that two-track immediately.

      Marsh could have still gotten out ahead of the now south-moving contingent of men and he could have still done the ‘forward scouting’ into the canyon… but all that precious TIME would not have been wasted that afternoon.

      ( Continued next message )…

      Reply

      • ( Continued from previous message )…

        >> calvin also said…
        >>
        >> And there is evidence of 3 sawyers sitting at the photo spot,
        >> however, over half of the crew is not in any of the photos.

        It still actually does bother me that we have no visual on more than HALF of an entire Hotshot crew in the 3:50 to 3:55 timeframe.

        I was HOPING that if/when Brendan McDonough ever decided to start talking about ALL the things he probably knows that we might find out more about this… but if Brendan is now going to just play his own “Nothing to see here… move along” game it’s doubtful we’ll ever even know if he does ( or doesn’t ) know anything about this.

        I was also hoping that the next time anyone interviewed Brendan they would have the smarts to also ask him if he heard the CALL-SIGN of whoever it was that appeared to be asking Marsh to ‘Hurry Up’ at 4:27 PM in Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble’s video…

        …but Mr. Gabbert wasn’t up to the task.

        Brendan McDonough was doing exactly what Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble was doing at 4:27 when that radio exchange took place over an open TAC channel and we seem to hear someone urging Marsh to ‘Hurry up” to Yarnell and Marsh responds with and exasperated tone saying “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

        Brendan McDonough was sitting in the driver’s seat of the Granite Mountain Superintendent Vehicle.probably only about 20 feet away from where Ronald Gamble was sitting in the Blue Ridge Crew Carrier… and ( just like Ronald Gamble ) he was doing nothing but listening to the radio.

        Reply

    • Yes, our hapless hero has a real credibility problem, but at least he described himself as a “knuckle dragger” which that is something I can respect and relate to, so I am going to move him up from a 0 to a .5 (on a scale of 1-10) on my Respecto Meter.

      C’mon Donut…I’m rooting for you. Step up to the plate young man and swing for the fences instead of punting down the court.

      Reply

  163. Gary said:
    And Holly what the fuck her name is, is an idiot if she thinks Eric Marsh was on the ball as a scout for the GMIHC. I would have rather had the scouts who General Custer and the 7th Calvary down into the Little Big Horn than him.

    Hey Gary,

    Its Holly what the fuck her name is NEILL here.

    I have not made a judgment on whether Marsh was “on the ball” as a scout, these are your words. I am simply pointing out that Marsh was scouting the route ahead of the crew. This is a piece of a puzzle we can finally put together. Looking at it objectively, it is an important piece of a puzzle now put into place: the location of and the actions of Eric Marsh during this critical timeframe.

    I leave it to your expertise to draw your own absolute and sarcastic conclusions about what it means to you.

    It was this IM team who lectured me extensively last year about the impossibility of Marsh being ahead of the crew or anywhere down near the house.

    But according to you, there’s a good chance I’m an idiot. I’d better go drool on myself now.
    Holly NEILL.

    Reply

    • Yes, I figured you were hiding in the shadows. I was (and still am) curious just how many other players are hiding there. Thank you.

      As far as Eric Marsh goes, I would still rather have the scouts who led Custer down into the Valley of the Little Big Horn than him as my scout on a fire.

      As far as your comments to me go…ouch.

      It’s not personal…it’s just business.

      Reply

      • Oh…and one more thing Holly. I understand you have paid your dues and I know you have done a lot of really good work on this subject. I will buy you a shot sometime to apologize.

        Reply

    • Calvin Good questions.
      till some guess to the answers Based on Joy and Sonny’s info the Canyon was in Heave brush with no trail or easy access 6 to 10 ft. brush.
      Based on the one piece of melted tape at the saddle the theory has been that marsh Flagged a route although there is no other evidence of that other than he was in front of the Crew.

      There was not a full pan of the crew at the rest spot so again an assumption that the crew were al there just not all in the Pictures Steed was not in the Pictures as well. 18 people spread out above and below the camera would be my guess.

      I believe you were in the conversation when we decided that Marsh was ahead of the crew .

      Reply

      • Holly If you were following us later in this thread after what happened on Wild Fire today you would have seen a long discussion I started that put Marsh in front of the Crew and we finally came to that conclusion after some other things started to fit I was told that by a Fire Fighter who herd the conversation or he herd it from some one that did I was still skeptical until we reviewed the possibilities and came to that conclusion..

        Holly
        So I have not but will Apologies to you now I did some of the jumping on back then.

        How ever I am still quite suspicious of What McDonough is saying now as some is contradiction to some previous statements. He hears that but doesn’t know why they left the Black but he also here’s marsh tell steed to bring the crew down?
        A lot of empty holes there.

        Reply

  164. **
    ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH’S WILDFIRE TODAY INTERVIEW
    **
    ** ‘MOVE ALONG… NOTHING TO SEE HERE’

    I am going to take a quick stab at a ’roundup’ here of some things that Brendan McDonough seems to have only now revealed in the recent Bill Gabbert interview and try to compare them to statements he has already made in the past.

    I believe that even now, even after this most recent interview, there are still some serious credibility issues going on here.

    ** “I HAVE NO CLUE”

    Bill Gabbert asked McDonough…

    “Do you know why the crew left the safety of a previously burned “black” area and decided to walk through unburned brush toward the ranch?”

    McDonough said…

    “I have no clue,” says McDonough.
    “I know they were asked to come to Yarnell if it was possible and
    Eric said, ‘No, we are going to stay here in the black.’ And for some reason they left.”

    Okay… full stop here.

    Is McDonough now testifying that he heard the 3:42 PM ‘availability check’ conversation that we know took place with Planning OPS2 Paul Musser calling directly out to DIVSA Eric Marsh on a TAC channel… or is he referring to some OTHER radio conversation?

    The “No, we are going to stay in the black” part SEEMS to come close to what OPS2 Paul Musser testified to with ADOSH regarding that ‘availability check’ radio call he made to Marsh at 3:42 PM… but even OPS2 Paul Musser was adamant in his testimony to ADOSH that Marsh NEVER mentioned ‘the black’ during that conversation. Musser says that conversation was ONLY about whether Granite Mountain was still (quote) “committed to the ridge”.

    Marsh said YES… they were still “committed to the ridge” ( as in, still working on their current assignment ).

    OPS2 Paul Musser NEVER said to ADOSH that he ever specifically asked Eric Marsh and/or Granite Mountain to “come to Yarnell, if possible”.

    So is Brendan really just completely mis-reporting what he heard circa 3:42 PM, or was OPS2 Paul Musser completely mis-reporting what he said to Marsh at that time?

    OR ( and here is the big OR )… is Brendan now reporting about some OTHER similar radio conversation he overheard where someone ELSE was calling out to Marsh and actually DID use the exact phrase “Come to Yarnell if possible”?

    Could that have been AFTER the conversation with Musser and might have been either OPS1 Todd Abel or SPGS1 Gary Cordes calling Marsh BACK with that direct request?

    Could this direct request have been associated with the hastily-planned emergency effort to cut some dozer line near Glen Ilah… which was going to need some Hotshots to help improve it if there was any chance for success?

    It is absolutely ASTOUNDING that even Bill Gabbert didn’t ‘follow up’ with a few simple questions once Brendan made this statment such as…

    1. Are you saying you actually heard the Paul Musser radio call to Marsh and you’re saying that’s exactly what YOU heard… or are you just saying that’s what you think you read somewhere and you never actually heard such a radio call?

    2. WHEN did this ‘Come to Yarnell if you can’ you now say you heard happen?

    3. WHERE were you and exactly what were you doing when you heard it? ( That could actually help put a timestamp on it if he doesn’t remember since the evidence record pretty much places Brendan at specific places at specific times ).

    4. WHO was making that “Come to Yarnell if you can” request? What was the CALL SIGN of the person who was not making that radio request out to Marsh?

    ** OR ** ( This goes along with question 1 above that Gabbert never asked )…

    Is this statement from McDonough just him saying he ‘knows’ they were asked to come to Yarnell only because that’s what he’s read about the OPS2 Musser call ( and he never actually heard that radio call himself )… but he’s not aware that Musser reported that conversation totally different than he is ‘remembering’ what he read somewhere?

    As for McDonough’s “I don’t have a clue” response…

    Is that now some kind of long-after-the-fact statement from Brendan that what both the SAIR and the ADOSH reports said ( in writing ) was never actually true?

    BOTH of those official reports have always said that right after Frisby dropped Brendan off at the GM Supervisor truck is when Brendan definitelly heard “Marsh and Steed discussing their options about whether to leave the safe black”.

    And Brendan never once denied those published statements in the reports.

    For Brendan to NOW be saying “I don’t have a clue why they might have left the black” seems to be a direct contradiction of what the reports stated as FACT.

    Either he heard them “discussing their options about whether to leave the safe black”, or he didn’t. If he did overhear such a conversation… then he must have SOME sort of ‘clue’ what was factoring into their decisions or why they were even discussing their ‘options’ at all.

    ** “MAKE YOUR WAY DOWN HERE”

    From the Gabbert article…

    “He ( McDonough ) adds that he didn’t hear a radio conversation between the two about why the crew left the black. He did hear, though, a discussion about Marsh going on ahead toward the ranch to make sure the route was good, and Marsh later told Steed they should make their way down there.”

    So are we now supposed to believe this is the entirety of what Brendan was so exercised about when he called Darrell Willis and said there was something that was bothering him so much he felt he needed to “get it off his chest”? Things he (quote) “never told the investigators” (unquote)?

    Is THIS now supposed to be the essence of the entire ’emergency’ conversation with Willis on a Friday afternoon in Willis’ office that then so ‘shocked’ Willis that he told Brendan “this can’t just sit with me. Either you tell the authorities about this or I will”… and Willis then proceeded to do just that and it involved all kinds of attorneys and officials and that led to legal motions and demands to a Judge for subpoenas and under-oath depositions?

    Something is not ‘adding up’ here.

    The whole crux of that ‘disagreement’ back in April of 2015 when Paladini related what Willis told HIM McDonough said was simply that Darell Willis refuted having ever told Paladini that he used the words ‘argument’ or ‘order’ when relaying to Paladini what Brendan told him. Paladini came back and said he stood by his story exactly the way he told it… and all Brendan McDonough had to say about the whole thing was…

    “I believe you’ve been misinformed”.

    Misinformed about WHAT? Brendan never said… and he has still done nothing even with this latest opportunity to tell the truth to explain what really went down between he and Willis or what ( if anything ) Paladini actually ‘got wrong’.

    Here is McDonough himself NOW apparently trying to boil that entire thing down to “No big whoop”. Eric went ahead happily a-scouting, told Steed “Come on down”, and Steed apparently then just happily shouted ‘Aye, aye, sir! Gaggle up boys!’.

    No ‘discussion’… no ‘argument’… everybody just Happy Little Hotshots.

    Move along. Nothing to see here.

    I don’t buy it.

    Something still STINKS here and it still looks like Brendan McDonough pursuing his OWN ‘agenda’ again ( as he has from the beginning ) and now just using a softball interviewer like Bill Gabbert to get his ‘new’ message out in the hopes of ‘setting the record straight’ and ‘clearing the way’ for the ‘book release’.

    ** THE BOOK

    Last but not least… there is this direct quote from McDonough in the Gabbert interview…

    “Some people thought that I ‘sold out’ by doing the book and that I was going to write about something that I didn’t tell the investigators about, but that’s not the truth. That’s not who I am. I wouldn’t sell out my brothers that saved my life in order to do a book. I wanted to talk to you because I feel the community thinks I sold out. I wanted to clear things up with the wildland firefighting community.”

    Key phrase here…

    “Some people thought that I ‘sold out’ by doing the book and that I was going to write about something that I didn’t tell the investigators about, but that’s not the truth.”

    Well… if we are to believe the other statements that Brendan is only NOW reporting (publicly) in this Gabbert interview… then Brendan himself is now supplying the proof positive that there WERE any number of things that he “didn’t tell the investigators about”.

    So what are we to believe now? That the ‘book’ he is being paid to participate in will ONLY ever mention the things he DID tell the investigators and will make absolutely no mention of even these ‘new’ statements in the Gabbert interview?

    Is it possible this attempt to ( in his words ) “clear things up with the firefighting community” was just a ‘suggestion’ on the part of his publishers to “get out ahead of the book release” and try to make sure the target audience for the book itself ( the firefighting community ) is “good to go” and “ready to buy”?

    Personally… I don’t believe McDonough has ‘achieved’ even that ( stated ) “clear things up with the firefighting community” goal.

    There is nothing in even this latest ‘controlled’ interview with McDonough that, once again, doesn’t raise more questions than it answers.

    Reply

  165. Welcome back Marti, even without the guarantees.

    FYI, I feel another little history lesson coming on.

    And as far as Bob and WTKTT go, I disagree with both of you, while at the same time I agree with both of you. I believe the level of esprit de corps that is found among wildland firefighters is common among all professions where the members have similar backgrounds, dress the same, have a common language used only by them and share other unique characteristics, but they are certainly not alone.

    For example, I believe that same kind of bonding is legendary among military and law enforcement professionals and intensifies exponentially the more specialized the members get, think…SWAT Teams, and Navy SEALS. Although have you noticed how hard it is go get those professionals to “out” and testify against an incompetent and deadly colleagues who historically have worn the same white coats they wore in medical school?

    And…as long as we are discussing it, this brings up a phenomenon that I have wanted to blog about for some time now. And that is this feeling of “brotherhood” that is so prevalent with past members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. This was not a common feeling that we shared within the USFS Region or Forests where I grew up on the job. In fact, hotshot crews were conditioned, encouraged and trained to be highly competitive of other hotshot crews and we treated each other as bitter rivals, even the crews on the same forest more than colleagues, much less as brothers.

    And it got much worse between the sub sets of wildland firefighters where hotshots called engine crews “tanker slugs” and helitack…”helislack” and they in turn called us “hotshits.” And everybody hated smokejumpers for their arrogance, blatant independence and indifferent attitudes toward the job and everybody who they considered to lesser than themselves…which was everybody else.

    So…this whole notion of a “brotherhood” is relatively new, based on my experiences and can be directly traced to the Rise Of The Hybrid Firefighter” and their close association with structural firefighters who are of course very, very, very heavily and I think exclusively…unionized. And of course unions have historically referred to other union members as “brothers” who are part of a “brotherhood.”

    End of story.

    Reply

    • So in your crew their was a brother hood a cohesive unit that took care of each other.
      My brother hood still exists OAK GROVE HOT SHOTS we are headed for another reunion next year other than looking old we still remember each other and the team we lived some are passing now but the names are still there. even the first year newbies come to get to gather again from first year crewman to the Superintendent From the 1950’s to 1979 when the crew was disbanded.
      The only other organization that has that kind of reunion are the Smokejumpers.

      Reply

      • Yes, I have picked up over the last two years that you had a very different hotshot experience than I did. The mighty Coconino during the Bill Buck era tried their best to transform otherwise fairly normal people into firefighting gladiators in an environment where they killed off the sick, wounded, weak and ate their young.

        I just don’t remember a lot of brotherhood, solidarity, unity or good feeling outside of your own crew. And that was more like the Lord The Flies meets Animal House at a Special Operations, Forward Operating Base. It was a dog eat dog world. Actually, I think the federal crews are probably still that way. I really do think the GMIHC were a very different hotshot crew

        But then again Bob, you were on an R-5 hotshot crew…hee, hee.

        Reply

        • I am going to give everybody who is interested in this sidebar discussion three pretty good examples of what I am talking about.

          1. We were MOPPING up the Battlement Creek Fire the day after our backfire killed some of the hotshot from our sister crew. Mormon Lake is only 12 miles from Happy Jack. We were mopping up around the brightly colored flagging that fluttered in the breeze that marked where their bodies laid a few hours earlier. AND WE DIDN’T THNK ANYTHING ABOUT IT OR THAT THERE WAS SOMEHTING WRONG WITH DOING THAT. And after we returned to our home forest, the mighty Coconino, we were called into a meeting at the Forest Supervisor’s Office and the only thing we were told was not to talk about what happened on the fire with anybody, so we didn’t. Even among ourselves there was never any discussions. It was like it never even happened and we thought that was NORMAL.

          2. Those Blue Ridge Hotshots (from the mighty Coconino) TURN THEIR BACKS whenever the media or anyone else tries to talk to them. Now those boys are some hard asses. They aren’t talking to anyone about what happened on the YHF because THEY DON’T WANT TO. They are hard core.

          3. I accidently ran into 3 Flagstaff Hotshots (the crew boss and both squad bosses) plus an ex flag hotshot eating really late one night in a rundown dimly lit Taqueria a few years ago in Prescott. They had just come down from a control burn that got away and was declared an escaped wildfire in the mountains above Prescott late in the fall. Even after I told those guys who I was they still scared me and I am fearless. Talk about some cold faces with hard stares. I was a little lonely and I just felt like doing a little male bonding over my burrito supreme. That conversation was a tough sale with some hard slogging and I had my best bullshit game on. Tough customers.

          I don’t really think things have changed all that much on the mighty Coconino or anywhere else with any of the crews I have been exposed to over the past few years on incidental occasions.

          Reply

          • So… it sounds like if you ran into these fellas again at the same Taqueria and the subject of Yarnell came up… the ENTIRE conversation would go like this.

            Q: “Whadda ya think of that Yarnell thing?”

            A: “They fucked up. Stupid bastards. Pass the sauce.”

            Reply

  166. Sticking my toesies back into the conversation here. With no guarantees.

    I’ve been following things, although not commenting. I went offline for awhile, traveling to other places. Then came back home, and went back to DailyKos after a several year hiatus. Focusing on #Ferguson and #BlackLivesMatter and also watching how politics were playing themselves out. I support Hillary Clinton for practicality and Sanders for ideals.

    Also watching and taking frantic notes and sometimes buying classes on CreativeLIVE regarding Landscape Photography (which they focused on in July), because I want to document, via photography, the effects on the New Mexico Landscape of wildfires, after successfully photographing the Valles Caldera (where the Granite Mountain Hotshots protected some historical structures in 2013 to some celebrity) in late February.

    New Mexico was really rescued by the “Weak El Nino” this year. Like seriously. Washington, I think, wasn’t. The west coast has been hit hard.

    And my apologies to Joy, to whom I said I would make available to her both my Adobe CC subscription (for use of all that awesome software) and my CreativeLIVE classes. I will do that in the next week, I promise.

    Right now I’m in the process of moving out of the house I have lived in since 1994 (so I can sell it, which I really need to do) into the house my family has owned since 1952, which is right around the corner, but it’s still a humungous hassle. And I really need to get this move done (Long story).

    Which is why I am saying “no guarantees.”

    I wasn’t paying all that much attention to what was going on in Washington over the past couple of weeks. I was listening on the radio. And I was assuming it was ghastly (since I followed it closely last year). But I did try to jump in and try to find out what happened, especially after I read here what you all were saying. That caused me to try to find out more facts over the weekend.

    One of the things I found out was that Cliff Mass, the weather guy based in Seattle, wrote a post about how the weather intensity that was involved in the fire killing the three fire-fighters was, just like that which happened at the Yarnell Fire, predicted well in advance. So I ask, “WTF, doesn’t anybody pay attention to the weather forecasts anymore??????”

    Gary’s rants about the Incident Command System really caught my attention. I really appreciate that, because I am not in any kind of position to critique that. As a civilian, I’ve just accepted that that was/is the way to go. So I REALLY appreciate that. The filling of positions of Incident Command Teams with people not truly experienced in the specific thinking/expertise of Wildland Fire Fighting may, in my mind, definitely have something to do with what is happening. And I think it definitely may have had something to do with what happened on the Yarnell Fire, as it may have influenced what happened on Esperanza and at at Twisp.

    I have, over the past year, been seeing the training of Structural Fire Department personnel in wildland firefighting (as is happening here in New Mexico) as a good thing. Now I’m beginning to see the possible serious problems with that. So thank you, Gary.

    As hard as it has been, sometimes, to read, the fairly acerbic evaluations here about what was happening with the Granite Mountain Hotshots, under the leaderships of both Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed, and all that “religious stuff,” as well as the “Structure Protection” stuff, I think that is important in terms of gauging what may have been operating (including leading them into a fatal decision) inside the heads of these Wildland Firefighters, especially on June 30, 2013. I think it was reinforced by, not only what happened on the Doce Fire, but also the Thompson Ridge Fire. They were fighting for their institutional survival. Saving structures was part of that public relations fight.

    On the afternoon of June 30, 2013, someone came up with an idea. We would know NOTHING about that idea if it wasn’t for the scathing testimony and the highly redacted notes from the Blue Ridge Hotshots. We don’t know if it was Gary Cordes’ idea or Eric Marsh’s. Gary Cordes was, mostly, a Structural Fire Fighter. Eric wasn’t, but his crew had just had two major publicized successes protecting structures, at Thompson Ridge and on the Doce fire, and he was under pressure to justify more support from Prescott for his Hotshot crew.

    The other person involved in that plan was Paul Musser. Relatively speaking he was, all things considered, second in command in relationship to the fact that the fire had reversed direction and was headed toward Yarnell big time, and given that the the Incident Commander was three sheets to the wind in terms of what was actually happening on the fire. I believe Musser was in on creating that plan, since he helped implement that plan by picking up Cory Ball at the Ranch House Restaurant and driving him to the Yarnell Fire Department to pick up the UTV to ride into Glen Illah to help figure out how tie in with the bulldozer operator to build some kind of fireline that, inside Gary Cordes’ mind, might help save Glen Illah. And that, quite possibly, inside both Gary Cordes’s mind and Eric Marsh’s mind, may have seriously included the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    Judging from what I have seen, I believe ENORMOUS lengths have gone to protect Paul Musser from any kind of scrutiny regarding this. His background is truly in Wildland Firefighting, not Structural Firefighting. But somehow he seems to have gotten sucked into this whole insane (and is that kinda sorta what happened in Twisp??) Hail Mary Plan that some combination of Gary Cordes and Eric Marsh came up with to “save” Glen Illah as the fire was reversing and headed there, even as the evacuation process was, imho, completely screwed up.

    And now we have Brendan McDonough’s interview with Gabbert. In which he says “they were asked.” Musser said, via his ADOSH interview, he checked on their status regarding “being committed to the ridge.” But we don’t have anything to corroborate that, just his word. We don’t know that Musser didn’t actually “ask” them to participate in this “Hail Mary” plan that I tend to agree with WTKTT (although we can’t really prove anything here at this time) that, actually, Eric, observing things from his awesome vantage point, may have even been the first author of, or at least in collaboration with Gary Cordes. We don’t have that actual conversation documented, just the “callout” from Musser to Marsh.

    So I’m sitting here, right now, wondering if “the system,” which has so far done some very specific things to protect Paul Musser, is also involved in preventing Donut from actually speaking the truth, because that Truth might implicate Paul Musser more than “the system” wants him to be implicated.

    And thanks, also, to WTKTT, for documenting what’s going on with the Grant McKee case. I hope his parents have the wherewithal to keep fighting.

    And I’m pretty cynical, unfortunately, at this point, about any kind of commitment from Wildland Firefighters to actually do what is implicated in all of their “We Will Never Forget” signs and posters and stuff. I don’t see them doing that. And it really is discouraging. And it comes at their peril. I truly believe that.

    And Wildlandfire.com is a skeleton of what it used to be. Unfortunately. There is, seriously, no discussion there, whatsoever, about what happened at Twisp.

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • Clff Mass asks, “Was the Fatal Wildfire near Twisp, Washington Predictable?”

      “I have hesitated to write this blog, considering the sensitivity of the issue: three brave wildland firefighers died trying to save lives and property. But fires are still burning and others have their lives on the line, so I feel impelled to write this.

      Many wildland firefighter deaths have resulted from inattention to meteorological data and forecasts. A tragic example is the Yarnell, Arizona fire in which radar showed developing thunderstorms that led to strong outflow winds that produced tragic results. The firefighters should have been pulled out, something borne out by subsequent analysis (see my previous blog on this).”

      http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2015/08/was-wildfire-evolution-that-killed.html

      Reply

      • I also agree with WTKTT’s observations downstream that the USFS Wildland Firefighters who perished were heavily influenced by the desire to save structures around Twisp. That really jumped out at me when I read the stories about them.

        Reply

    • I am on cell…it is so good to see you here.

      great reading.

      I have not been home a lot plus Sonny had two heart surgeries but yes no rush and I look forward to it…but when it happens and I think all things happen at its time like people coming forward and. finally speaking up because they reqd gabberts recent article on donut…donut, why would a sweet Christian lady tell us what she did and then you do interview saying something different …

      great to see marti here

      Reply

      • Thanks Joy!!

        Yep I agree things happen when they happen.

        But I will email you the links this week to both play around with my adobe stuff and my CreativeLIVE stuff. When you are ready to do that.

        God I have moving!!!!!!!

        Namaste

        Reply

    • And I have also appreciated the back and forth between WTKTT and Bob Powers regarding the “circling of the wagons” of the Hotshot Crews. I understand both sides. But I agree with WTKTT that that “circling of the wagons,” is both illegal in this case, and potentially fatal to wildland firefighters, when it comes to actually understanding what is leading to their deaths and near misses on the wildfires (especially wildland-urban interface) they (and we) are facing.

      I truly believe something needs to change here. But I, as a civilian, can’t change that. Only wildland firefighters can. In My Humble Opinion.

      And I vote a positive vote on Gary’s term “hybrid.” That’s something that is happening, and is, understandably so, and, given what we are seeing, needs to be critically evaluated.

      Reply

    • So, I guess, to add focus, the question inside of my head right now, is…….

      Is there something systemic that is operating (including on Brendan) to protect (as we know it has already done) to protect Paul Musser from something?

      WTKTT keeps talking about Brendan’s agenda. Is it possible that “Brendan’s agenda” is actually shaped by a larger, more systemic, agenda?

      Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on September 1, 2015 at 5:23 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >>
        >> Is there something systemic that is operating (including on Brendan)
        >> to protect (as we know it has already done) to protect Paul Musser
        >> from something?

        I don’t think Brendan McDonough gives one hootn’ crap about Paul Musser, or ANY of those other ‘guys’ who happened to be in Yarnell.

        He has said himself ( over and over ) that the ONLY thing he cares about are “his brothers”. The people HE was going to work with every day. Not anyone else.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT keeps talking about Brendan’s agenda. Is it possible
        >> that “Brendan’s agenda” is actually shaped by a larger,
        >> more systemic, agenda?

        I actually don’t think so.

        Not that the ‘systemic agenda’ doesn’t exist… but with regards to this mysterious Brendan McDonough guy… it’s all just ‘personal’ for him. HE lost HIS BROTHERS. That’s all HE cares about.

        He actually boils that down in a statement in even just this latest softball interview with Bill Gabbert…

        >> LOSING HIS 19-PERSON FAMILY
        >>
        >> “I lost nineteen amazing men that were my structure,” he says.
        >> “That was my life. I loved fighting wildfires. They were lost
        >> that day; I lost my boys. I lost my brothers, my mentors,
        >> my religious guidance … it was tough. I knew I needed to deal
        >> with it because I started having suicidal thoughts. That’s what
        >> really pushed me to get help. It took me a while to realize
        >> that the depression was not going away and was getting worse.”

        So this was all just about ‘personal loss’ for him, it seems.

        “MY boys… MY brothers… MY mentors… MY religious guidance… ”

        “ME, ME, ME”.

        And as far as his ‘agenda’ goes… the absolute CONFUSING part of that is that he keeps spouting how he feels he needs to DEFEND “HIS Brothers”… but then he never really DOES.

        He keeps ranting about how people are ‘pointing fingers’ and saying things that “aren’t true”… but then he always STOPS SHORT and doesn’t avail himself of any opportunity to say what he seems to think is NOT TRUE.

        Classic example is what he just said in even this latest Gabbert interview…

        >> THE DEPOSITION
        >>
        >> McDonough was scheduled to provide sworn testimony during
        >> a deposition on May 28, 2015 in Phoenix, but he said it was
        >> canceled by the State of Arizona. He says everyone else was
        >> telling their side of the story, and he wanted to tell his side.
        >>
        >> “And I guess the State didn’t think it was important enough to
        >> hear my opinion again. I don’t know why they canceled the
        >> deposition.”
        >>
        >> Do you wish they had not canceled it?
        >>
        >> “Nothing crazy or new would have come out of it,” says McDonough.
        >> “It would have been more of a reconfirmation of what
        >> I saw that day and trying to make sure my brothers were not
        >> going to get blamed for something they didn’t do.
        >> That was the biggest thing. There have been a lot of fingers
        >> pointed … I just wanted to make sure that I was standing up for my
        >> brothers. I wanted to make sure I wasn’t letting people tell stories
        >> that weren’t true.”

        Okay. Fine. Whatever.

        So there he is actually talking to one of the most sympathetic Wildland ‘writers’ he could find and complaining that all he has ever wanted to do was set the record straight and “stand up for my brothers” and stop “letting people tell stories that aren’t true”…

        …and then he does nothing of the kind in the interview itself.

        Once again… he lets one more golden opportunity to do exactly what he keeps saying he wants to do just sail right on by and he just leaves it all with more confusing statements and doubts about what he does or doesn’t know.

        He doesn’t even say WHAT stories he is even referring to, much less take the opportunity to “stand up for his brothers” and… do what?… finally tell the REAL TRUTH and put an end to the “stories” he seems to say are “not true”?

        It never even seems to dawn on him that one of the big reasons people ARE “telling stories” ( as he calls them ) is because HE, himself, chose not to report everything he knew in the first place.

        It’s very, very strange what has been ( and is still ) going on with this guy.

        Reply

  167. Bob said, “You still do not understand and it is not against the Law unless the accident was intentional.
    We are discussing a decision made that did not intently put the crew in a death situation.”

    Bob – I really think you are wrong on this one and this is a discussion I would like to have with you in this format in excruciating detail, although before we go down that road, I would like to save everyone some time and give you the opportunity re-read your post and re-consider you position and/or statements.

    I do not believe what you said would meet any reasonable persons interpretation of the federal (and all other manslaughter statutes) manslaughter law or all of the case law that has been handed down for centuries all of the way back to English Common Law.

    BUT…this is important, because I have no doubt that your view is shared by probably about 99.999 of the wildland firefighter community and I think they NEED to understand that making decisions on the job can result in manslaughter charges against them even if they did not intend to harm people but their decision was so reckless and irresponsible that any reasonable person should have known that their decisions could result in someone else’s death.

    We need to rap this one out as they used to say back in the 60’s.

    And if I am wrong, I need to be educated as to why I am just in case I want to get drunk and drive through a school zone and 65 miles per hour and kill a group of 17 kids, because even if I didn’t do it on purpose, I am going to need your arguments for my manslaughter trail.

    And I think Marsh’s decision to move his crew out the black and down that death chute was so reckless and irresponsible there is no doubt that any reasonable person should have known their decisions could result in death and was at least as reckless and irresponsible as getting drunk and driving 65 miles per hour through a school zone just after the closing bell rang…if not much more.

    Reply

    • In other words, I do not believe that “mal intent” or intent of any kind is a required element for the crime of manslaughter and all it is going to take in ONE determined prosecutor and wildland firefighter/s are going to prison. Times are changing even cops are starting to go to prison for reckless and irresponsible decisions that cost people their lives. Times…they are a changing.

      Reply

      • One of the ‘legal’ terms that, I think, covers the nuances you are thinking of is something called “depraved indifference”.

        It can be the difference between a man 2 charge being ‘bumped’ up to man 1 or even a manslaughter charged getting ‘bumped’ up to murder.

        It’s a difficult legal concept… but it’s a real one.

        Good example would be someone who simply shoots a gun at a passing vehicle ‘for the fun of it’… but someone in the vehicle dies.

        That person could ALWAYS say… “I certainly never intended to kill anyone”… but the concept of “depraved indifference” negates that argument.

        The ‘act’ was so stupid… and so negligent… that it exhibited a level of “depraved indifference” to the potential consequences of one’s actions that can raise the level of the manslaughter charge(s).

        Reply

        • Another example.

          Since we have Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown captured in a radio recording actually saying “Fuck it… let’s go for it” when he and Brian Frisby and Jason Clawson and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were trying to decide whether they should risk ‘breaking through’ the fireline on Shrine Road…

          …if those 5 had ended up just five more bodies that had to be hauled out of the Yarnell boondock that day… it could then easily be said it was the result of an act of “depraved indifference” to the potential consequences of one’s actions.

          Reply

          • Yes, I do believe that, “Fuck it…let’s go for it” is statistically the most commonly uttered phrase by people right before they do something really, really, really stupid!

            Not that I haven’t used that phrase a few times myself in my younger days. But now I know I am not, and have not ever been invincible like so many young people do.

            Reply

            • SHIT Gary I answered your question and its no place to be found.

              Yes I agree with you I did not explain what I was trying to say thanks for catching that.

              Marsh is responsible for the crew deaths.
              How ever he was never named in any Law suits’ and according to Prescott law the Fire men and City employees and city can not be sued for any liability or death caused by employees in the performance of there duties. that may just be fire employees.

              There for unless McDonough was asked under oath he has no obligation to tell his story to any one and that is the legal bottom line.
              He can’t with hold evidence unless he is Under oath. He Lawyered up and that is no different than BR being put on no comment and all there statements to the investigators being redacted.

              They have brought a few Fire supervisors to trial on these kinds of things but to my knowledge none have gone to jail or paid any money in law suits so far I may not have seen all the cases so that is just my recollection

              Reply

              • I think we must be talking about different issues that are related but not the same. As I have said before, there are a lot of downsides to having discussions in this format. And no, no one has gone to prison…yet. But, as I said, that COULD have happened after Thritymile but going as far as they went was groundbreaking at the time and things have changed since then with more legal accountability for people who have traditionally have given free passes by society because they have to make spit second decisions involving life and death.

                I just want wildland firefighters out there to understand, that there is no question in my mind whatsoever that if Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed would have survived their decisions their actions met all of the legal requirements (elements of the crime) to be charged, prosecuted and convicted of the federal charge of manslaughter if that had been a federal crew and for state manslaughter (which is easier to convict someone of) since they were not a federal crew.

                And no of that has anything to do with civil liability although if you have been found to be “acting outside the scope” of your authority, you are no longer protected by the laws you have mentioned.

                When you found to have done things outside the scope of your authority as defined by your employer, they will separate you from their case, throw you under the bus and you can be held personally responsible both civically and criminally.

                And I am not trying to lecture Bob or anyone else here, I am simply regurgitating a very, very, very, small portion of what was pounded into my head at FLETC, and every in-service training session I went to for 23 years while working in federal law enforcement. Which is why I carried the insurance policy and tried very hard to follow the rules in regards to excessive force because I didn’t want to become anybody’s wife in the big house.

                And this isn’t for Bob, he is like me and just an interested observer and commentator trying to share some hard earned knowledge and experience. But violating the excessive force standards is “outside the scope of employment” for a law enforcement officer because no law enforcement officer is allowed by their employers to exceed the reasonable use of force.

                And guess what? NO ONE ever authorized either Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed to violate ANY of the standards regulating how they supervised the GMIHC much less violating almost all of the rules all at one time without a backup plan beyond “we don’t think we can make it, but fuck, let’s go for it.”

                Both Jesse Steed or Eric Marsh were acting “outside the scope” of their employment when they directed and led the GMIHC down that death chute in front of that raging inferno. And it would take a good procesutor about 5 minutes to have Mr. God Had a Different Plan For Those Men stuttering and stammering and givng both of them up on the stand for having acted outside of the scope of their employment and that shit bag lawyer who works for the City of Prescott would have already filed a motion separating them from their case and then they would be responsible for all of their own legal fees and judgements.

                And guess everybody is STILL AFRAID OF, that very thing happening and disvoering that Musser or somebody else was acting outside the scope of their employment and then this is going to get real…really fast. That is the dirty little secret. Firefighters are at least 20 years behind law enforcement when it comes to both civil and criminal liability for doing really stupid things on the job, but they are probably in for some accelerated learning over the nest few years, and maybe over the next few months if somebody cracks this fucking case open.

                And Holly what the fuck her name is, is an idiot if she thinks Eric Marsh was on the ball as a scout for the GMIHC. I would have rather had the scouts who General Custer and the 7th Calvary down into the Little Big Horn than him.

                Reply

                • As usual you said it different but covered the stuff I missed
                  I agree with you.
                  Dammit we need a nice place to sit and have a couple of Beers and do this face to face.
                  R5 was the Cradle of HS Crews maybe we were a little Different maybe not–We worked hard in training to make crewmen a cohesive unit that work like a well oiled machine a Camaraderie that went beyond the Job it worked well and was in most HS Crews Like Bill Gabbert and his crew the El Carriso HS they were all very tight crews in R5 The Sawtooth IRHS crew I ran on a couple of occasions and spent 15 years Training and working with there supervisors were the same type of Brotherhood.
                  Oh well R3 HEE, HEE

                  Reply

                  • C’mon Bob…I was just doing the old R-3 versus R-5 thing that goes back to before Bill Buck was relieved of his command of the Idyllwild Zone on the Hog Fire Complex in northern California on the Shasta T. That fucking fire almost killed me.

                    I know you guy’s and the other R-5 crews are legendary and I know R-5 is the Cradle Of Civilization of the hotshot world. We all trace our roots back to southern California.

                    Reply

                    • Oh…and one more thing. Bill Buck was relieved as Fire Boss because he refused to smoke dope, hold hands, wear flowers in his hair, and sing Kumbaya at the unified command meetings.

                      Although his “scorched earth” and “sometimes you have to destroy the forest in order to save it” policies might also have had something to do with it. Bill was a Marine, because you know what they say, “once a Marine, always a Marine” And those people in northern California really like their big trees.

                      I don’t know, I was just a squad boss on the Hog, nobody told me anything? But I do know Bill Buck was our Creator and principle Fire God, and as such, he could do no wrong in our book.

                    • Whoops…brain freeze. I think it was the Idyllwild Fire Camp, but the Blue Ridge Zone.

                      And for anybody else who was on the Hog Fire of 77 and building fire line up Kanaka Ridge you know what I am talking about when I say that fucking fire almost killed me.

                      We backed up at least twenty miles to cut fire line for fourteen days straight up Kanaka Ridge with five hotshot crews dropping trees, bucking them up and dragging the trunks and slash out of the way.

                      Twenty category II crews came behind us and were digging hand line that was as wide as a six lane freeway. By the time we reached the top, more than a third of our crew had been medevaced.

                      Now that was a FOREST FIRE! And went it finally hit our fire line, it blew right over it even after we backfired…but God Bless America, we picked up the slop over and the rest became Wildland Firefighting History.

                      After the Hog, I vowed to go back to college and even hit the books, you could have stuck a fork in me, I was done as a hotshot.

                      But by the next spring, I was healed, tweakin’ for an adrenaline fix and flat broke, so I went back to become the Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Boss.

        • Yes, I have already pasted this federal statute on this thread once here, but I think do it again, because it is what will eventually send some wildland firefighters to prison. American lover it’s firefighters…but if it was me, I wouldn’t count on “jury nullification” or death to protect me from actions like Marsh and Steed did.

          And FYI, I always carried $1,000,000 (one million) in liability insurance that I paid for myself (its tax deductible) under the Federal Law Enforcement Officers Association which was the closest thing we had to a union since regular employees unions would not accept Special Agents in their unions because we were so hated and distrusted by “regular” employees.

          “Smart” wildland firefighter supervisors and mangers had better start doing the same thing if they aren’t already. The very FIRST thing the government (and all of the attorneys) does is throw the employee under the bus the first second their interests and those of the employee who is accused of misconduct diverge. I really miss the job…hee, hee, had you going for a second didn’t I?

          Reply

          • Whoops, got on a roll and forgot to past it.

            18 U.S. Code § 1112 – Manslaughter

            (a) Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of two kinds:

            Voluntary—Upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.

            ***** Involuntary—In the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony, or in the commission in an unlawful manner, **** or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.

            READ IT AND WEEP!

            Reply

      • Technically…I don’t know if “let’s rap this out” was really used in the 1960’s or not? All I know for sure is that it was not only most memorable line, but it was best line from the movie “Billy Jack” which was the campy cult favorite (at least among Prescott residents) which was filmed mostly in “Everybody’s Hometown” in 1971.

        Wasn’t the fight scene that started in Dent’s Ice Cream Parlor between Billy Jack and the local Prescott redneck cowboys (who were all too real!) who poured flour over the Native American teen that eventually spilled onto the Yavapia County Courthouse lawn terrific or what?

        And the attempted rape scene with the son of the local businessman who ran the town in the corvette who Billy Jack ultimately forced to drive his car into Lynx Lake is a real keeper!

        Hell…I think I know all about a lemon Toyota Corolla that same man sold to my dear wife (who was at that time my dear girlfriend) in 1972! That same businessman later became the Mayor of Prescott who threatened to cut the Granite Mountain Hotshots jobs if they didn’t manage to bring home the bacon for the good citizens of not only my hometown, but Everybody’s Home Town!.

        Reply

  168. Reply to : WantsToKnowTheTruth says

    August 31, 2015 at 11:36 pm
    I’m also sitting here shaking my head in astonishment this evening reading the ‘comments’ that are now appearing at the bottom of Mr. Gabbert’s article.

    The ‘consensus’ seems to be that it was a WONDERFUL interview, and Mr. Gabbert is accepting all kinds of ‘congratulations’ for it.

    And I see Holly has ‘chimed’ in and still believes that Eric Marsh says he was “at the house’ in that captured audio recording.

    She then goes on to congratulate Brendan and Mr. Gabbert for finally ‘confirming’ that Marsh was ‘out ahead of them’ and ‘scouting the route’ and that this now also confirms that Marsh was somehow being a good-boy and following LCES.

    I guess it just hasn’t dawned on her yet that any actual confirmation that Eric Marsh was, in fact, out AHEAD of those men that afternoon and might have been telling them it was OK to ‘come on down’ is even more disturbing than any other scenario.

    Not only would the time that was wasted doing this ‘scouting’ ( which should have been done earlier ) the actual time the other men needed to remain alive that day… to even suggest that Marsh was acting as their ‘forward lookout’ means also having to accept that he obviously FAILED that task in a horrific manner.

    REPLY:
    From Official records:

    “…this escape route had not been scouted, timed, marked or improved”. ADOSH

    “A second error made by GMIHC is that they did not have a lookout when they made the descent to Boulder Springs Ranch”. ADOSH

    “There is a gap of over 30 minutes in the information available for the Granite Mountain IHC. From 1604 until 1637, the Team cannot verify communications from the crew, and we have almost no direct information for them.” SAIR

    “No one realized that the crew left the black and headed southeast, sometime after 1604.” SAIR

    When new information comes forward that directly contradicts these erroneous official findings and many others, I feel that it is important to make the distinctions.

    L: Eric had eyes on the fire, down below. He was lookout.

    C: Eric communicated their intentions to leave the black and travel down the escape route toward the structures, from 1613 and 1627 audios plus numerous other references to “hearing this” in official interviews, especially including Gary Cordes. But “No one” knew they were moving, according to SAIR.

    E: Eric went down ahead of the crew to check the escape route before bringing them down.

    S: Safety zone was identified and considered adequate.

    I do believe that Watch Out #17 was compromised.

    Whether you choose to make a judgment on information that reflects clarity and better understanding of this event is entirely up to you. If I recall correctly from last year, your “team” lectured me extensively about the impossibility of Marsh being ahead of the crew.

    Official records have led to official and unofficial misperceptions. If new information sheds light and clarity on what happened that day, let us take it in and consider it without ugly sarcasm and pre- conceived bias.

    At the very least, the GMIHC deserve a factual and correct account of what actually DID happen that day. Regardless of the dramatic conclusions you may draw from it.

    If LCES was mitigated, then something else went terribly wrong. Holly

    Reply

    • Reply to Holly Neill post on September 1, 2015 at 10:55 am

      Holly… thank you for your reply above.

      I have ‘replied’ myself using a new ‘parent’ comment up above.

      Just click the following link and your browser will simply ‘jump up’ to the spot up above in this same page where that reply was posted…

      http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-306367

      NOTE: If you ever want to do this yourself either here or over at ‘Wildland Fire’ or on any forum that is using the ‘WordPress’ software… just ‘right click’ the DATE for any post and then pick the ‘Copy Link Location’ option. That puts a URL into your ‘clipboard’ that you can then ‘paste’ into any other comment to cause a ‘jump’ to any other comment in the same page ( or anywhere on that same site ).

      Reply

  169. McDonough is holding the Key to the closet. Coached or Personally he is Protecting March and his brothers just by some of the statements he made in the interview He wants them to be seen as Heroes and he is not giving them up.
    May be some of the counseling coming out as well. I believe he is still in denial and protection mode. For his own mental state.

    Sorry WTKTT my bad I did mean Wildfire Today.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2015 at 8:59 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> McDonough is holding the Key to the closet. Coached or Personally
      >> he is Protecting March and his brothers just by some of the statements
      >> he made in the interview He wants them to be seen as Heroes and he
      >> is not giving them up.

      To believe that simply telling the TRUTH ( and the WHOLE truth ) regarding what you saw, heard, or KNOW as a key witness to a historic, tragic incident would represent ( in any way ) “giving them up” is ( and has always been ) patently ABSURD.

      >> Bob Powers also wrote…
      >>
      >> Maybe some of the counseling coming out as well. I believe he is still in
      >> denial and protection mode. For his own mental state.

      I am GLAD he is doing better. I really am.

      We finally see confirmation that the whole “Being a counselor” for that Wildland Firefighter Support organization ( started by the woman who used to run lunch wagons a fire camps ) just didn’t work out… ( which was pretty obvious way back when and even before that organziation got accused of mis-handling donated money… but no one seemed to want to admit Brendan was ‘no longer there’ )… but we also now hear ( from Brendan himself ) that suicide came onto the table in his own mind, at some point.

      So I’m damn glad he DID get some help and now feels well enough to travel to Philadelphia and talk to Medical Conventions about how much he’s been “helped” by this EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization And Reprocessing ) Therapy…

      …but in all honesty… something still STINKS with regards to this latest “interview” of his.

      It seems like he hasn’t come any farther than the original ADOSH interviews and he is STILL ( like he did with ADOSH ) just pursuing his OWN ‘agenda’ and trying to “control the story” as he sees fit.

      In other words… he still seems to have come no farther in his own mind than the convoluted mental gymnastics he was performing during his second ADOSH interview.

      Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg, Lead ADOSH investigator
      A = Brendan McDonough
      ——————————————————————————-
      1074 A: And I’m not saying anyone made any mistakes because, you know, it – it
      1075 happened because of what decisions were made. I know. Whether – whether
      1076 it was – it’s not that it wasn’t a wrong decision. It just wasn’t the right one, if
      1077 that makes sense, you know?
      1078
      1079 Q2: Didn’t work out.
      1080
      1081 A: Yeah. It’s not that it was a horrible decision or that, you know, it was
      1082 completely arrogant. It’s just you have multiple decisions. And that seemed
      1083 like the best one. And, I mean, it just didn’t work out.
      1084
      1085 Q2: Right.
      ————————————————————————————

      And now ( on top of everything else ) he seems to be making moves to try and “set the record straight” ( again… as it fits his own ongoing agenda )… but he doesn’t seem to realize that he now has a serious CREDIBILITY problem.

      Even now… with YASI ( Yet Another Softball Interview ).. there are some NEW glaring discrepancies in what he is saying versus what he, himself, has said before and even testified to. ( but never actually under oath ).

      ** Example 1 – The Day Before the Tragedy.

      >> From the Gabbert article…
      >>
      >> The day before ( Saturday, June 29, 2013 ), he ( McDonough ) had been sent home
      >> sick by Jesse Steed, Captain and second in command of the crew.

      That bears no resemblance to what McDonough himself has previously reported.

      From Kyle Dickman’s original article ( based on interviews with Brendan McDonough )…

      Article Title: 19: The True Story of the Yarnell Hill Fire
      Published: September 17, 2013 – By Kyle Dickman
      http://www.outsideonline.com/1926426/19-true-story-yarnell-hill-fire

      ——————————————————————————
      Across town, three other Granite Mountain hotshots—Christopher MacKenzie, Garret Zuppiger, and Brendan “Donut” McDonough—arrived at the Whiskey Row Pub, a dive in Prescott’s historic downtown. When the hotshots came to drink in groups, as they often did on rare days off, bartender Jeff Bunch gave them a discount. His son was a former crew member.

      The trio sat by the pool tables in the back of the bar. Donut hadn’t seen Garret, a red-bearded 27-year-old, or Chris, his roommate and a nine-year veteran of firefighting, in a couple of days.

      Donut (his nickname was easier to say than his last name) had missed his hotshot brothers. He’d come down with a cold on Thursday night and taken Friday and Saturday off.

      “Donut, what the fuck are you wearing?” Garret asked. He had on a pink tank top: an easy target. The hazing went around the table, moving from Donut’s style to Chris’s poorly trained dog, Abbey, to Garret’s obsession with vinyl records, before the conversation eventually landed, as it always did, on the job.

      “Any idea what the assignment is?” asked Donut. “All I heard was we got work.” He was feeling better and eager to get back on the fire line. Tomorrow was Sunday, an overtime day—nearly $20 an hour.

      “More staging, I think,” said Chris. “We’ve been busting little lightning fires since you left.”
      ————————————————

      Then… a ‘rework’ of that same original version of ‘the story’ ( as told to Kyle Dickman by
      McDonough ) appeared when Dickman published his book “On the Burning Edge”.

      From page 184 of Dickman’s book…
      ————————————————–
      ( On Saturday night, June 29, 2013 )… Inside Moctezuma’s, one of the six bars lining the street ( Whiskey Row in downtown Prescott ), Brandon Bunch’s dad poured drinks for Donut ( Brendan McDonough ), Chris ( MacKenzie ) and Zup ( Garret Zuppiger ). They’d stopped in for a beer and claimed seats in the back of the bar by the pool table and TV’s replaying Wimbledon and baseball highlights.

      “Why the fuck would you wear that?” Zup said to Donut. He was talking about his friend’s pink tank top, which looked straight out of Southern California. “Respect yourself”.

      “What are you doing out of your cage?” Donut came back. It was good to be back out with the guys. “Shouldn’t you be home listening to vinyl records with your girlfriend?”

      Donut had come down with a nasty cold the morning before and hadn’t worked
      the past two days.
      ————————————————–

      Key phrases…

      From the original Dickman article…

      “Donut hadn’t seen Garret, a red-bearded 27-year-old, or Chris, his roommate and a nine-year veteran of firefighting, in a couple of days. He’d come down with a cold on Thursday night and taken Friday and Saturday off.”

      From Dickman’s published book…

      “(Brendan) hadn’t worked the past two days”.

      Nothing in there at all about McDonough having been “sent home sick” by Jesse Steed on Saturday, June 29, as is now being reported in the Gabbert article.

      So ( once again ) this goes towards CREDIBILITY.

      Is this Brendan now ‘making up’ another version of the same story… or is this some sort of catastrophic brain fart on the part of the interviewer… Mr. Bill Gabbert?

      Something tells me it’s the former.

      ** Example 2 –

      >> Bill Gabbert asked McDonough…
      >>
      >> Do you know why the crew left the safety of a previously burned “black” area and
      >> decided to walk through unburned brush toward the ranch?
      >>
      >> “I have no clue,” says McDonough.
      >>
      >> “I know they were asked to come to Yarnell if it was possible and Eric said,
      >> ‘No, we are going to stay here in the black.’ And for some reason they left.”

      Is McDonough only now ( after all this time and all previous interviews ) referring to the known 4:42 PM radio conversation ( over a TAC channel ) between Eric Marsh and ‘Planning’ OPS2 Paul Musser?

      Is McDonough only now trying to say he DID hear that 4:42 PM conversation himself over the radio?

      If so… then he has basically just admitted that he was ALWAYS withholding information from ADOSH during BOTH of his ADOSH interviews.

      Or is McDonough now just regurgitating things he has read in reports and articles?

      Bill Gabbert made no attempt to even nail him down on this ‘new’ statement of his.

      It was important to do so. Even Paul Musser himself has testified that while he did make an ‘availability check’ with Marsh over the radio… it was all just about whether Marsh was still ‘committed to the ridge’ and Musser testified he never actually ‘asked’ Marsh to ‘come to Yarnell’..

      So is McDonough himself now calling OPS2 Paul Musser a liar?

      If McDonough DID hear Planning OPS2 Paul Musser making that ‘availability check’ with Marsh at 4:42 PM… then this also contradicts what he told ADOSH about when he last heard any radio conversations from Steed or Marsh in-between the time he was picked up by Frisby and Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the radio.

      The 4:42 ‘availability check’ radio call from Musser to Marsh took place AFTER Brendan had been picked up by Frisby at 4:39 PM.

      There are even more ‘discrepancies’.
      I haven’t even finished going through the whole Gabbert interview yet.

      I can’t even make any sense (yet) out McDonough’s response to Gabbert with regards to the reported ‘argument’. Brendan ( once again ) seems to dodge the question and all he wants to do is say that they “didn’t talk to me” and they “got it wrong”… but still refuses to say exactly what is WRONG about what a respected City Attorney says he heard.

      He seems to be admitting to hearing SOMETHING that he was obviously withholding from investigators… but still wants us to believe it was “no big whoop” and “doesn’t matter”.

      I was actually afraid this was going to happen.

      The best chance McDonough had of ‘setting the record straight’ was to NOT have withheld anything from the original investigators ( which he DID ) OR backed out of even his first chance to deliver an ‘under-oath’ deposition ( which HE did, regardless of what then happened the second and the third time ).

      Now he has a huge CREDIBILITY issue that I’m not sure he will ever overcome.

      It’s really very sad.

      Reply

      • I’m also sitting here shaking my head in astonishment this evening reading the ‘comments’ that are now appearing at the bottom of Mr. Gabbert’s article.

        The ‘consensus’ seems to be that it was a WONDERFUL interview, and Mr. Gabbert is accepting all kinds of ‘congratulations’ for it.

        And I see Holly has ‘chimed’ in and still believes that Eric Marsh says he was “at the house’ in that captured audio recording.

        She then goes on to congratulate Brendan and Mr. Gabbert for finally ‘confirming’ that Marsh was ‘out ahead of them’ and ‘scouting the route’ and that this now also confirms that Marsh was somehow being a good-boy and following LCES.

        I guess it just hasn’t dawned on her yet that any actual confirmation that Eric Marsh was, in fact, out AHEAD of those men that afternoon and might have been telling them it was OK to ‘come on down’ is even more disturbing than any other scenario.

        Not only would the time that was wasted doing this ‘scouting’ ( which should have been done earlier ) the actual time the other men needed to remain alive that day… to even suggest that Marsh was acting as their ‘forward lookout’ means also having to accept that he obviously FAILED that task in a horrific manner.

        Reply

        • WTKTT You have the wrong times posted on the conversations
          4:42—-1642 and 4:39—-1639
          should be 1542 and 1539 all before the crew left the black at 1605—4:05

          Let me say the Brotherhood thing is strong those other brothers in the fire department in Prescott may not be helping as well as Marshes wife.
          Counseling McDonough to not tell things that would through a bad light on the crew and the supervisors. This type of thing is real with in a tight nit crew if you have never been there in the good and close times and the close calls it is like a extended family you stand up for each other you don’t talk about the in house problems While you are there it is a close group that protects and takes care of each other.

          With McDonough– he is the only one left to keep the Granit Mountain 19 alive in memory That memory needs to be proud.

          You are right the only thing to shake that memory of his is the Blue Ridge HS
          If they have another story Different from his.

          I can tell you from some inter circles that story is already out there not official but thru the FF net work, Dudley and I believe Willis.
          hat was said to the City Attorney that had him and Willis immediately contact The State Attorneys office and run I mean Run to tell what they had heard from McDonough???????????

          It certainty wasn’t what we heard from this interview and is very strange.

          Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on September 1, 2015 at 7:03 am

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> WTKTT You have the wrong times posted on the conversations
            >> 4:42—-1642 and 4:39—-1639 should be 1542 and 1539 all
            >> before the crew left the black at 1605—4:05

            You are absolutely right. Sorry. Total brain fart on my part.

            McDonough was in Frisby’s UTV by 3:39 PM ( not 4:39 PM )
            OPS2 Musser’s ‘availability’ call to Marsh was 3:42 PM ( not 4:42 PM ).

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Let me say the Brotherhood thing is strong those other
            >> brothers in the fire department in Prescott may not be
            >> helping as well as Marshes wife.

            I’m pretty sick of this whole ‘Brotherhood’ thing. I really am.

            Camaraderie in the workplace is fine… but I’m sick of these ‘fire brothers’ pretending they are the only ones who ‘know about that’ or they are the only ones who do dangerous work but still need to go home to their families.

            I know guys/gals who work as power utility lineman. Their hands are inches away from sudden death most of the time. The dragon never sleeps for them. One false move and you are DEAD… and they also work their asses off most of the time… even before/during and after these ‘wildfires’ or other natural disasters where these same ‘Wildland’ guys are working.

            But when an accident happens… you won’t find them ‘circling the wagons’ like these fire people do. They usually tell the TRUTH… and the WHOLE TRUTH… because they know every accident has a CAUSE and a REASON and there are LESSONS to be learned that will help keep other people from getting killed.

            These guys/gals even work with ‘fallen trees’ almost EVERY DAY on the job… only THEY have to actually put them back UP and try to not let them fall on them and crush them to death.

            And that’s just one other line of ‘dangerous’ work.

            There are MANY others that also aren’t practicing this same kind of insular and myopic stuff that the ‘fire brothers’ are known for… and seem to just “get away with” most of the time.

            I agree with you that this same insular, myopic “it’s us against them” mentality didn’t do poor Brendan any favors in the days/week immediately following the incident. I agree that Brendan is probably still only now trying to dig himself out of a credibility hole that others ‘suggested’ he dig… and they were handing him the shovels as well.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> Counseling McDonough to not tell things that would through
            >> a bad light on the crew and the supervisors. This type of
            >> thing is real with in a tight nit crew if you have never been
            >> there in the good and close times and the close calls it is
            >> like a extended family you stand up for each other you
            >> don’t talk about the in house problems While you are
            >> there it is a close group that protects and takes care of
            >> each other.

            Yea… yea… I know. I get it. It’s all about “The Brotherhood”.

            See above. Pretty sick of hearing it or even listening to any suggestions that it’s an automatic excuse for some behavior(s).

            19 men DIED ( horrible deaths ).

            It is ( and always has been ) a class 2 misdemeanor ( in Arizona ) to obstruct any official investigation, especially when there are deaths involved.

            You can have as many backyard barbecues as you want and celebrate your ‘Brotherhood’ with your coworkers… but that still doesn’t put you above the LAW.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> With McDonough– he is the only one left to keep the
            >> Granit Mountain 19 alive in memory

            I disagree. McDonough could be lying in the 20th grave at that cemetery and pretty much every single memorial and monument being built for that crew would still be in full progress.

            It was an infamous, historic event that killed 19 good civil servants… and I believe their (good) ‘memory’ would be being kept alive no matter what someone named Brendan McDonough ever does or doesn’t do.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> That memory needs to be proud.

            As many have said here on this forum ( and I agree )… they were “heroes” before they ever committed the greatest blunder in the history of Wildland Firefighting. They were “heroes” ( in society’s sense of the word ) just because of what they were DOING… and not how they DIED.

            That’s part of the absurdity here.

            For Brendan McDonough to torture himself and believe he, alone, is the one that has to “protect my brothers” and “fight for their honor” is patently absurd and would only seem to indicate he STILL hasn’t been getting the full range of mental health help he seems to need.

            There’s even a name for that ‘syndrome’ whereby you come to believe something is totally up to you… when it’s NOT… but I can’t remember the medical term for it.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> You are right the only thing to shake that memory of his is
            >> the Blue Ridge HS If they have another story Different from his.

            I have always believed ( and said so ) that there is a GOOD chance that the actual decision to leave the black was something that DID take place when Marsh and Steed were together again for that brief moment circa 3:38 PM when Marsh had arrived back at the anchor point so he could meet Frisby for that requested face-to-face.

            It is very likely that is when their “what do we do now” conversation take place. It was face-to-face and not over the radio.

            So that would match whatever this is Brendan is trying to say now about “People don’t understand. You don’t need a radio when you are two feet away from someone”… or whatever that is he’s trying to say in this Gabbert interview.

            That being said… TWO points about this…

            1. It was Brendan McDonough himself who confirmed for ADOSH that Marsh was NOT ‘with the crew’ for most of the day. Brendan is the one who described Marsh’s location for most of the day as “Just above me on the ridge”… which was at least 1/4 mile from the anchor point where Steed and the men were working. The only time Marsh seemed to be back in earshot of Steed was for that brief moment when he had come back to the anchor point for the Frisby F2F… only to then hear Frisby come on the radio at 3:49 PM and say he was ‘rescuing’ Brendan and heading back east and there would be NO ‘Face to Face’.

            2. It MUST be pointed out here that going back to even the original SAIR report… it SAYS that Brendan McDonough SAID ( to investigators ) that he did, in fact, “Hear Marsh and Steed discussing their options about whether to leave the safe black”.

            Now Brendan is telling Bill Gabbert he “doesn’t have a clue” why they might have even considered “leaving the safe black”.

            That totally contradicts what even both the SAIR and the ADOSH investigation reports have already said ( in writing ).

            Brendan has never ( until now? ) denied those statements in the SAIR and ADOSH… that he definitely “heard them discussing their options about whether or not to leave the safe black”.

            So is Brendan now trying to say he “lied” originally and/or was just “making that up” when he was first interviewed by investigators?

            Very confusing.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> That being said…
            >>
            >> I can tell you from some inter circles that story is already
            >> out there not official but thru the FF net work, Dudley
            >> and I believe Willis.

            And I think you will find that regardless of anyone accepting the fact that what went down in Yarnell was probably ( hands-down ) the greatest ‘blunder’ in the history of Wildland Firefighting… it has NOT diminished anyone’s overall RESPECT for this group, its crew or its leaders or even the ‘goals’ they were trying to achieve.

            We are all human. We make mistakes.

            Hiding the TRUTH and/or ever thinking it is necessary to do so never helps ANYONE, in the long run.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> What was said to the City Attorney that had him and Willis
            >> immediately contact The State Attorneys office and run I
            >> mean Run to tell what they had heard
            >> from McDonough???????????
            >>
            >> It certainty wasn’t what we heard from this interview
            >> and is very strange.

            I agree. If all McDonough had to tell Willis ( and felt it was necessary to his mental health to “get it off his chest” ) was that the information he had withheld from investigators was the he heard Marsh tell Steed he was going to “scout the route” and then he just casually told Steed it was ok to come down…

            …that does NOT seem to have been something that would have prompted Willis to go ballistic and tell McDonough (quote) “this can’t just stay with me. I’ll give you the weekend to tell officials and if you don’t… I will do it myself”.

            If the Blue Ridge Hotshots are ever allowed to talk… or if we ever even just see the full original ( unredacted ) BR Unit Logs… I believe that “told him it was ok to come down” that McDonough is now pawning off as “no big whoop” will still turn out to be the ‘argument’ and the ‘order’ that others seem to have described.

            It’s still a ‘word game’ to McDonough.

            Where/When does the world TOLD turn into the word ORDERED?

            It depends on your agenda, I guess.

            Reply

            • The FF Brotherhood is different from line man and others that go home every night.
              HOT SHOTS work, eat , sleep and socialize 24/7
              for 6 to 9 months facing Fames steep terrain and falling trees and rocks.
              That is the brother hood that Binds people and they do not talk about things that happen in their Crews.
              It is hard to explain to some one that has not been there done that.

              Reply

              • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                September 1, 2015 at 10:44 am

                >> Bob Powers said…
                >>
                >> The FF Brotherhood is different from line man
                >> and others that go home every night.

                When there was a severe ice storm here some years ago… a crew from Oklahoma had to come to this rural area and replace all the power lines. They were here for 3 weeks and they slept in their trucks for that whole time. We would bring them food.

                They don’t do that for 6 months at a time… but it’s impossible to say they don’t know what ‘working closely’ and facing life-threatening work every day is like.

                >> Bob Powers also said…
                >>
                >> HOT SHOTS work, eat , sleep and socialize 24/7
                >> for 6 to 9 months facing Fames steep terrain and
                >> falling trees and rocks.

                I get it. It’s dangerous, hard work and it requires you to spend far more time with people you might not even WANT to spend that much time with… but are FORCED to.

                >> Bob Powers said…
                >>
                >> That is the brother hood that Binds people and
                >> they do not talk about things that happen in
                >> their Crews.

                Until someone dies… and it is other people’s JOBS to find out what happened. They you are REQUIRED to ‘talk about what happened’. It’s the LAW.

                >> Bob Powers also said…
                >>
                >> It is hard to explain to some one that has not
                >> been there done that.

                It’s not hard to explain at all.

                We’ve had this discussion before and I believe you’ve explained it very well each time.

                It’s not just the dangerous, hard work.

                It’s all the ‘camping out’ and stuff.

                I get it.

                That still doesn’t put anyone ( or any group ) above the LAW.

                We basically now have a situation where it is being CONFIRMED in the public press that Brendan McDonough has ALWAYS been ‘withholding’ crucial information from people whose legal JOB it was to investigate the DEATHS of 19 civil servants.

                That’s a crime.

                In Arizona… it’s at least a class 2 misdemeanor.

                The whole ‘Brotherhood’ thing CAN be taken too far.

                Reply

                • You still do not understand and it is not against the Law unless the accident was intentional.
                  We are discussing a decision made that did not intently put the crew in a death situation.
                  If some one broke the law intently then there is no cover up or don’t talk.. Even violating the 10 and 18 is not against the law just against safety regulations might get you fired but not a crime.

                  All I am saying is I understand where McDonough is at.
                  I wish he would state all the facts and that BR should be able to talk as well. I have no control over that.

                  If you believe that The BLM and FS don’t already know exactly what happened and are dealing with it eternally
                  for the past 2 years. Then you have not been listing to Gary and Me.

                  We already know they made a bad decision just not the why and who or reason. It cost them there lives.
                  Until he is put on a witness stand under oath he really dose not have to say any thing unless he freely talks.
                  No Crime there.

                  Reply

                  • Reply to Bob Powers post on
                    September 1, 2015 at 1:43 pm

                    >> Bob Powers said…
                    >>
                    >> You still do not understand and it is
                    >> not against the Law unless the accident
                    >> was intentional.

                    I wasn’t talking about the ‘accident’ itself.
                    I was talking about what happens AFTER that.

                    There doesn’t have to be an actual ‘crime’ investigation in progress for people to still be charged with ‘obstructing an official investigation’ which ( in Arizona ) is still a misdemeanor… but a ‘crime’ unto itself nonetheless.

                    This has all been discussed before and I’m going to reprint something from back in Chapter 13 and then a new link to a new article where a man was convicted to jail and had a pay a $5,000 fine for simply ‘obstucting’ an OSHA investigation into a workplace accident.

                    ** FROM CHAPTER 13…

                    >> Gary Olson said
                    >>
                    >> Well…that certainly fills in some of the
                    >> potential blanks for me, but I would have
                    >> to know more about the investigative
                    >> power those conducting the investigation
                    >> have. I do know it is a federal crime to lie
                    >> to a federal agent conducting a criminal
                    >> investigation (just ask Martha Stewart)
                    >> but I didn’t think ADOSH or the SAIT
                    >> or Arizona State Forestry had that
                    >> kind of push.

                    Some complicated ‘legal’ ground here… but the bottom line is that ANY official Federal OR State authorized/sponsored ‘investigation’ is not something to be taken lightly.

                    The ‘implied powers of authority’ rule kicks into effect.

                    The text below is taken directly from the actual Arizona State Statues ( sic: LAWS ) regarding the “Industrial Commission of Arizona” ( ICA ) and Arizona ADOSH which are at this URL…

                    http://www.azleg.gov/ArizonaRevisedStatutes.asp?Title=23

                    Over and above the usual ‘implied powers of authority’… this is just ONE place in the actual ‘statues’ for ADOSH where they, themselves, are allowed to define what is or isn’t an actual CRIME related to their own responsibilities for performing inspections and conducting investigations.

                    ————————————————————–
                    23-418. Penalties; violation; classification

                    F. Any person who knowingly gives advance notice of any inspection to be conducted under this article without authority from the director is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.

                    G. Whoever knowingly makes any false statement, representation or certification in any application, record, report, plan or other document filed or required to be maintained pursuant to this article is guilty of a class 2 misdemeanor.
                    ————————————————————

                    So ‘F’ says you can pay some heavy fines ( or go to jail ) if you even just give someone unauthorized advance notice of an ADOSH inspection.

                    ‘G’ obviously covers what can happen if you screw around with an ADOSH ‘investigation/report’.

                    Obviously the worst thing you could do is flat-out LIE to an ADOSH investigator… but if you read this statute carefully it also ( legally speaking ) includes things like ‘withholding information’ or otherwise ‘falsely representing’ that you have told ‘the whole truth’. If it is discovered later that you did NOT… and that you were purposely CHOOSING that behavior… well… some shit could hit the fan and you could ( theoretically ) be charged with committing a CRIME ( as per this statue alone ).

                    There are lots of OTHER places in the Arizona ADOSH satutes where it is made perfectly clear that while ADOSH is not, itself, a ‘law enforcement’ body… failing to cooperate fully, or interfere with and/or obstruct an investigation, or to ignore ADOSH citations or directives can result in some actual HEAVY fines and./or actual ‘jail time’.

                    In Arizona… a ‘Class 2 Misdemeanor’ is a step above the low level ‘Class 3′ stuff like trespassing, assault and criminal speeding. It carries a maximum punishment of 4 months in jail, a $750 ( or more ) fine plus surcharges and 2 years of mandatory probation.

                    If you have REALLY pissed someone off or you REALLY get on the wrong side of a prosecutor and/or a Judge and he/she decides to bump you up to a ‘Class 1 Misdemeanor’ you are now in the 6 months of jail time and THOUSANDS of dollars in fines category ( plus 5 years of probation instead of just 2 ).

                    ** MAN GOES TO JAIL AND PAYS
                    ** A $5,000 FINE FOR OBSTRUCTING
                    ** AN OSHA INVESTIGATION

                    Manager at Illinois Firm Sentenced
                    for Obstructing OSHA Investigation
                    http://www.claimsjournal.com/news/midwest/2009/10/21/104688.htm

                    From the article…
                    ———————————————–
                    A manager of a roofing company in Illinois who pled guilty to obstructing an investigation by the U.S. Department of Labor’s

                    Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) into an employee’s death was sentenced to serve 30 days in custody.

                    Stephen Vyncke of Moline, Ill., received credit for one day served in jail and was ordered to serve the remaining 29 days as work release. U.S. District Judge Michael M. Mihm also ordered Vyncke to pay a fine of $5,000 and to remain under supervised release for a period of two years.

                    Acting U.S. Attorney for the Central District of Illinois Jeffrey B. Lang stated, “We all expect that OSHA will receive the truth when it conducts safety compliance reviews, especially following a workplace accident. Anyone who deliberately attempts to impede the investigation of a tragic incident resulting in injury or a death can expect to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.”
                    ————————————————

                    Reply

    • Whew- I looked at the wonderful family Donut has and wondered how could he fail the families of the 19 by withholding the truth that he knows concerning their deaths. I am certain he would want all the facts known had one of his own died.. Because I know the loss of a son, I know the terrible decision he made to make a game out of the truth. He is no hero in my book but instead has hindered the real facts of the case. Granted his youth and inexperience as a wild land fire fighter and perhaps his past experience as a prisoner it would perhaps give us some reason to understand his sociopathic behavior–but it is no excuse for withholding the truth that the loved ones have a right to. If his behavior is allowed to stand without due recompense then our law stands as a reproach to human decency.

      However looking at the whole investigation I am left to believe he fits right in with the total affair–cover up and make believe that all is right when it is so evident the whole situation requires a complete and thorough change of method and attitude from top to bottom. What benefit to future fire fighting methods will this lackadaisical investigation amount to?

      I do know that Donut has before made a deposition–the lady banker who he told this to, unlike Donut, is no person to doubt. He ought to talk about that.

      Reply

  170. **
    ** ABOUT JUDGE RICHARD GAMA’S DECISION TO DISMISS MARCIA MCKEE’S
    ** WRONGFUL DEATH LAWSUIT FILED ON BEHALF OF HER SON, GRANT MCKEE.

    I had meant to post this two weeks ago… but never got the chance.

    Jumping back to August 11, 2015, when we learned that Maricopa County Superior Court Judge Richard Gama had granted Arizona Forestry’s motion to dismiss Marcia Mckee’s ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit filed on behalf of her son, Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee.

    NOTE: It is ASTOUNDING that even today ( August 31, 2015 ), there has STILL been NO real reporting about this decision of Judge Gama’s on the part of the MSM.

    The MSM seems content to have everyone believe their original coverage and reporting was accurate… which was saying that ALL the Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits WERE being settled in one swell foop with that dog-and-pony press conference held the day before the second anniversary.

    That was/is, of course, NOT the case.

    It’s almost as if in order to report on this OTHER event… they would have first had to admit their coverage of just the one lawyer’s ( Patrick McGroder ) press conference back in June was both incomplete… and WRONG… and that not all of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits were even covered by that one-sided settlement being announced at that press conference.

    Mr. John Dougherty ( of InvestigativeMEDIA ) has, in fact, obtained and published a copy of Judge Gama’s actual ruling and it’s worth noting the REASONS he ( Judge Gama ) gave for granting Arizona Forestry’s request to dismiss that case over in HIS courtroom which was in no way part of that ‘dog-and-pony’ show back in June.

    Just as he ( Judge Gama ) did when he dismissed the Yarnell ‘property damage’ lawsuits, he has put himself out on a legal limb that might very well get ‘sawed off’ by the Arizona Court of Appeals.

    Marcia McKee ‘wrongful death’ initial dismissal order online…

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/08/8-11-2015-Order-of-dismissal.pdf

    Here is the whole thing ( it wasn’t very long )…
    ————————————————————————————————-
    Michael K. Jeanes, Clerk of Court – *** Electronically Filed *** 08/11/2015 8:00 AM

    SUPERIOR COURT OF ARIZONA – MARICOPA COUNTY

    Case Name: KYLIE STEINMETZ, et al. v. STATE OF ARIZONA, et al.
    Case Number: CV 2014-009068 ( Consolidated )

    Date of this Order Document: 08/07/2015

    CLERK OF THE COURT: M. Corriveau – Deputy

    Judge: HONORABLE J. RICHARD GAMA

    Plaintiff(s): KYLIE STEINMETZ, et al.
    Attorney(s) of record for the Plaintiff(s): CRAIG A KNAPP

    Defendant(s): STATE OF ARIZONA, et al.
    NOTE: “Defendants” collectively references the State of Arizona (“State”) and the Arizona State Forestry Division (“ASFD”).
    Attorney(s) of record for the Defendant(s): BROCK J HEATHCOTTE, MICHAEL L PARRISH.

    MINUTE ENTRY

    The Court has had under advisement Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss (re. McKee, CV 2014-009070).1

    Having read and considered the briefing and having heard oral argument, the Court issues the following rulings.

    I. ASFD.

    The ASFD argues that it should be dismissed because it is a nonjural entity.

    NOTE: A ‘nonjural entity’ refers to an ‘entity’ that maintains it can NEVER be sued by anyone, for ANY reason.

    Whether the ASFD is a jural entity is a threshold issue of this Court’s jurisdiction. Cf. Yamamoto v. Santa Cruz Cnty. Bd. of Supervisors, 124 Ariz. 538, 539 (App. 1979) (court has no jurisdiction over party that is not legally capable of being sued).

    A governmental entity has no inherent power and possesses only those powers and duties delegated to it by its enabling statutes. Braillard v. Maricopa Cnty., 224 Ariz. 481, 487 (App. 2010); Schwartz v. Super. Ct., 186 Ariz. 617, 619 (App. 1996) (powers of state administrative agency limited to those granted by statute); see also Facilitec, Inc. v. Hibbs, 206 Ariz. 486, 488 (2003); Cox v. Pima Cnty. Law Enforcement Merit Sys. Council, 27 Ariz. App. 494, 495 (1976).

    Thus, a governmental entity may sue or be sued “only if the legislature has so provided.”

    Braillard, id. (dismissing Maricopa County Sheriff’s Office as a nonjural entity); see also Kimball v. Shofstall, 17 Ariz. App. 11, 13 (1972) (Arizona State Board of Education not an autonomous body with right to sue and be sued).

    Plaintiff has not pointed to an enabling statute that allows the ASFD to sue or be sued.

    (2) See Resp. at 13 and compare with A.R.S. §§ 38-714(A) (Arizona State Retirement System), 30-102(B) (Arizona Power Authority), and 41-2253(A) (Greater Arizona Development Authority).

    As such, the Court finds that the ASFD is not a jural entity.

    Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED dismissing this action as to the ASFD for lack of jurisdiction.

    II. State.

    Plaintiff is the mother of Grant McKee (“McKee”), a firefighter who died while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. She brings claims against the State for wrongful death and emotional distress. The State argues that these claims should be dismissed. The Court agrees with the State, for the reasons stated in the Motion (at 3-13) and Reply (at 2-10).

    Accordingly, IT IS FURTHER ORDERED granting the State’s Motion to Dismiss with prejudice.

    Docket Code 926 – Form V000A – Page 2
    ——————————————————————————-

    So the PRIMARY reason that Judge Gama sided with Arizona Forestry is because he is of the personal opinion that Arizona Forestry is, in fact, a ‘non-jural’ entity and cannot be sued by anyone for any reason.

    This puts his decision right on the edge of a pretty controversial legal issue that is ongoing in the United States and might easily be ‘reversed’ by the Appeals Court.

    Arizona is NOT one of the States in the Union that has passed its own version(s) of the Federal level “Sovereign Immunity” laws… and therein lies the controvery and the reason this decision might easily be overturned on appeal.

    Judge Gama’s stated ‘reasoning’ for siding with Arizona Forestry is as follows…

    “A governmental entity may sue or be sued ‘only if the legislature has so provided.'”

    So Judge Gama is looking at the whole situation like this…

    “The Arizona Constitution and Arizona Law does NOT specifically say that an Arizona State agency can sue or be sued… so that must mean that sovereign immunity is the DEFAULT situation and Arizona Stage agencies can’t be sued in court”.

    Judge Gama then also says…

    “Plaintiff has not pointed to an enabling statute that allows the ASFD to sue or be sued.”

    That is actually right. You will NOT find such a statute because there ISN’T ONE.

    Again… Arizona is one of the States in the Union that has never gotten around to passing their own versions of the Federal-style ‘sovereign immunity’ laws… so you will NOT find any codified Arizona law that establishes it one way or the other.

    Hence… it is ‘open to interpretation’.

    Judge Gama has ‘interpreted’ the LACK of such a statue to mean the DEFAULT situation is that you CANNOT sue an Arizona State Agency.

    That ‘assumption’ has been shown to be FALSE in other States and that is why so many other States HAVE ended up passing their own ‘sovereign immunity’ laws in order to clear up what is often a confusing legal situation.

    Judge Gama quotes some Arizona case law where others have also decided that since Arizona Law doesn’t say anything about it one way or the other… then the DEFAULT must mean that you CANNOT sue an Arizona Agency…

    …but see below.

    There is just as much Arizona ‘case law’ to back up the OPPOSITE point of view.

    If Arizona doesn’t have any ‘sovereign immunity’ laws for its agencies or its employees, then the DEFAULT *could* be interpreted to be ( and HAS been in OTHER cases ) that Arizona State agencies and/or employees CAN be sued when there is sufficient evidence of negligence or wrongful/harmful actions on their part.

    ** The OTHER reason(s)?

    In the SECOND part of his ruling… Judge Gama takes the controversial move of just saying he ‘agrees with what the State Lawyers said in their motion’… but WITHOUT explaining WHY he agrees with them or even bothering to include the details in his own ruling.

    Judge Gama said…
    ——————————————————————————
    II. State.

    Plaintiff is the mother of Grant McKee (“McKee”), a firefighter who died while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. She brings claims against the State for wrongful death and emotional distress. The State argues that these claims should be dismissed. The Court agrees with the State, for the reasons stated in the Motion (at 3-13) and Reply (at 2-10).
    ——————————————————————————-

    That is as clear as mud… and almost seems like an intentional move to keep the details of what the Arizona State lawyers were even suggesting OUT of his own ruling.

    It is highly unusual for a Judge to agree with a ‘motion to dismiss’ and then, in his own ruling, basically just end up saying nothing more than just…

    “Yeah… what you said. I agree”.

    As far as I know… this ACTUAL ‘Motion’ that Judge Gama is just refering BACK to in his decision and just saying “Yea… what you said. I agree” has never been made public.

    It would still be interesting to try and find out what the hell this obtuse “Yea… I agree” blurb in his ruling is actually referring to, since the then goes on to issue an actual ORDER based on whatever this ‘mysterious’ argument really is/was.

    Some other things to notice…

    The Judge ( Gama ) is talking about a different CASE number than the CLERK is…

    The Clerk describes the Order as relating to this case…
    Case Number: CV 2014-009068 ( Consolidated )

    Judge Gama said he was only making a decision for THIS case number…

    The Court has had under advisement Defendants’ Motion to Dismiss (re. McKee, CV 2014-009070).1

    ( Continued next Reply since there’s already a link in this one )…

    Reply

    • ** APPEAL(S)

      As mentioned above… this issue of ‘sovereign immunity’ and who is ( or isn’t ) a ‘non-jural entity’ in the State of Arizona isn’t a NEW argument… and Gama’s decision is just one more in a long history of cases ( in Arizona ) that have been trying to ‘figure that out’.

      Here is just one example of a case where a lower Judge in Arizona ( not Gama, but a lower court Judge just like him ) reached a similar conclusion like Gama just did… but then that lower court decision about who is or isn’t a ‘non-jural’ entity in Arizona was OVERTURNED and REVERSED by the Arizona Court of Appeals…

      From the Law Firm of Osborn and Maldeon
      Simon v. Maricopa Med. Center – 7/1/2010

      http://www.omlaw.com/azapp-blog/postings/2010/when-a-party-improperly-names-a-non-jural-entity-but-properly-serves-the-associated-jural-entity/

      From this Arizona Law Firm’s article…
      ——————————————————————————————–
      Plaintiff filed a complaint against the Maricopa Medical Center (“MMC”), the City of Phoenix Police Department (“Police Department”), and various officers of the Police Department (the “Officers”), alleging common law tort claims arising out of an altercation with the officers in February 2008.

      The Police Department moved to dismiss the claim on the grounds that it is a non-jural entity; ( an entity that can NEVER be sued by anyone for ANY reason ).

      The Judge presiding over the (original) trial court granted this motion.

      MMC also filed a motion to dismiss on the ground that it is a non-jural entity, that Plaintiff did not file a notice of claim statute, A.R.S. § 12-821.01, and that Plaintiff did not certify whether expert testimony was necessary pursuant to A.R.S. § 12-2603(A).

      The Judge presiding over the (original) trial court also granted this motion, finding that Plaintiff had not complied with A.R.S. § 12-821.01.

      The Plaintiff timely appealed.

      On APPEAL, the Plaintiff’s lawyers argued that the trial court erred in determining that the Police Department and MMC were ( in Arizona, anyway ) non-jural entities.

      The Arizona Appeals Court REVERSED the lower court’s judgment in favor of the Police Department and MMC, and remanded the case BACK to the trial court for further proceedings.

      The Arizona Appeals Court held that the Police Department and MMC should NOT have been dismissed from the case as non-jural entities, and that the original trial SHOULD proceed.
      ——————————————————————————————–

      So in ARIZONA… it is still really “One Judge’s opinion versus another’s” when it comes to whether or not Municipal, County or State agencies are actually ‘non-jural entities’.

      In the case of the recent Judge Gama decision in the Marcia McKee ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit, the Arizona Court of Appeals could very well find ( as they did in the case above ) that the lower court’s ruling ( Judge Gama’s ) was INCORRECT… and the original ‘wonfgul death’ case should, in fact, be restarted and PROCEED TO TRIAL.

      This isn’t over yet. Not by a long shot.

      Reply

  171. Looks Like McDonough gave a full interview over on Wildland Fire
    Nothing earth shattering but some statements that don’t match the investigation.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 31, 2015 at 3:27 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> Looks Like McDonough gave a full interview over on Wildland Fire
      >> Nothing earth shattering but some statements that don’t match
      >> the investigation.

      It’s actually on Bill Gabbert’s “WildFire Today” BLOG. The “Wildland Fire” website
      is another online site altogether.

      Here’s a direct link to the interview Brendan McDonough arranged with Bill Gabbert just published today ( August 31, 2015 ).

      http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/31/the-yarnell-hill-fire-lone-survivor-interview-with-brendan-mcdonough/

      I wish people would get his name right.
      Even the photos accompanying Gabbert’s article are calling him ‘Brendon’.

      I am also glad he seems to be doing better.

      See a ‘Reply’ to this message about him being the guest speaker at Medical Convention in Philadelphia right now. He’s going to be speaking to that convention about the benefits of EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy for treating PTSD.

      That being said… this Gabbert interview is nothing but JASI.

      JASI = Just Another Softball Interview.

      It does NOTHING to clear up the lingering mysteries surrounding what even others have SAID they have already heard from Brendan himself.

      Gabbert doesn’t even bother to distinguish whether what Brendan is saying now about hearing that Eric was asked to bring them to Yarnell, if possible, was something he actually HEARD that day… or whether he’s now just repeating what he’s read after-the-fact.

      Brendan states flat-out that he just wanted to ‘clear some things up with the wildland community’ ( mostly with regards to the book deal ) and he was doing nothing in even THIS interview but what he has always done when being ‘interviewed’.

      Pursuing his OWN agenda.

      If you take Brendan at his word here… then he seems to be saying he NEVER heard any kind of ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.

      This is a direct contradiction to the information that came out earlier surrounding the Paladini and Willis statements… and if Brendan never heard any such thing then that means either Willis ( Still a Prescott Fire Division Chief at that time ) or Paladini ( A full-fledged City Attorney ) were just “making that up”.

      So let’s say Brendan isn’t still doing what he’s always done and just ‘cherry picking’ on his responses.

      Let’s say Brendan really never did hear any ‘argument’ that whole time he was sitting in the GM Supt. truck with nothing to do but hear everything transpiring on the GM intra-net radio channel.

      Then WHO are the ‘mysterious’ people that SAIT Co-chair Mike Dudley has always been referring to when he said the SAIT heard from ‘multiple people’ that they overheard an argument between Marsh and Steed?

      Does this still all come down to WHEN the Blue Ridge Hotshots will ever be allowed to be properly interviewed about what they saw/heard that day?

      Reply

      • Followup…

        ** BRENDAN MCDONOUGH TO BE THE GUEST SPEAKER AT A MEDICAL
        ** CONVENTION THE LAST WEEKEND OF AUGUST, 2015.

        24-7 Press Releases ( Online site )
        Press Releases for August 26, 2015.

        Article Title: Brendan McDonough, Only Survivor of Deadly Arizona Fire, to
        Speak at EMDR International Association Conference in Philadelphia

        EMDR ( Eye Movement Desensitization And Reprocessing ) Therapy Hailed As Success for PTSD

        http://www.24-7pressrelease.com/press-release/brendan-mcdonough-only-survivor-of-deadly-arizona-fire-to-speak-at-emdr-international-association-conference-in-philadelphia-411747.php

        From the article…
        ————————————————————————–
        PHILADELPHIA, PA, August 26, 2015 – For those suffering from PTSD (Post Traumatic Stress Disorder), the annual conference of the EMDR International Association, August 27-30, 2015, at the Sheraton Philadelphia Downtown Hotel will be closely watched. Why? EMDR (Eye Movement Desensitization and Reprocessing) therapy is one of only two therapies recognized by the World Health Organization for the treatment of PTSD in adults, adolescents and children.

        While PTSD is now widely known both inside and outside the medical community, the unique qualities of EMDR and its success as a psychotherapy treatment are not as well-known to the lay community. But to those who have benefitted from it, such as Brendan McDonough, it is lauded as a lifesaver. McDonough, is the sole survivor of the Granite Mountain

        Hotshots in Prescott, Arizona, in which 19 courageous brothers were killed fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. McDonough will address the Conference attendees at the Awards & Recognition Dinner on Saturday, August 29th starting at 7:00 PM in the Liberty Ballroom of the Sheraton Philadelphia Downtown Hotel. In addition, Philadelphia-based experts, as well as EMDR patients, will be available for interviews before and during the Conference.

        A Wildland Firefighter from 2011, until tragic events unfolded in 2013, McDonough’s job was to save lives, to protect property, and to preserve the forest, fighting some of the most historical and devastating fires our country has seen. His world changed June 30, 2013 when he emerged as the only survivor among the 20 members of the crew from the devastating Arizona fire.

        EMDR therapy was used to treat Brendan, helping him back to a normal healthy life, and he’ll be thanking EMDR therapists for what they do in giving back people’s lives as well as reaffirming the power of EMDR as an evidence-based psychotherapy.
        ————————————————————————–

        Reply

        • Followup 1 ( of 2 )…

          Notice in the press release above that is says this…

          “Hotshots in Prescott, Arizona, in which 19 courageous brothers were killed fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire. McDonough will address the Conference attendees at the Awards & Recognition Dinner on Saturday, August 29th…”

          That implies that MULTIPLE Hotshots ( plural ) from ‘Prescott’ were somehow in Philadelphia this weekend and scheduled to talk to ‘the convention’.

          Who? Former GMHS? How many?

          Reply

        • Followup 2 ( of 2 )…

          Notice in the press release above it also says this…

          “A Wildland Firefighter from 2011, until tragic events unfolded in 2013, McDonough’s job was to save lives, to protect property, and to preserve the forest,…”

          Looks like someone didn’t hear about Arizona Judge Richard Gama’s decision when he dismissmed the Yarnell property damage lawsuits.

          McDonough ( and ALL the GM Hotshots ) were working for Arizona State Forestry on June 30, 2013.

          Judge Richard Gama has already ruled that Arizona Forestry never had ( or has in the future ) one single atomic molecule of either responsibility or even ‘duty’ to ever be protecting ANY ‘lives’ or ‘property’.

          Quite the opposite, actually.

          According to Judge Gama’s ruling… if any Arizona Forestry employee ever DOES make a move to protect any ‘property’ or ‘lives’… then they are AUTOMATICALLY committing ‘negligence’ because that is NEVER what they are supposed to be doing if/when working for Arizona Forestry.

          Reply

  172. I have thought of two more potential titles for the book I will never finish writing.

    The Incident Command System and the Law of Unintended Consequences
    The True Story of The Yarnell Hill Fire

    Whoops, I cant remember the other one, it will come back to me I hope.

    BUT…that brings up another point I have been wanting to write about for a long time and in lieu of any new information about the YHF, why not now?

    Early last year when I was bitchin” about the ICS, Bob (I think) said that we needed ICS because no agency could afford to staff all of the people needed to fight wildfires.

    And so Bob, I guess this question is mostly for you since you seem to have a lot of contacts at the upper levels of fire management because of your extensive experience and continued interest in the subject over the years. Do you really think that is true and can you ask your contacts if they think it is true the next time you are shootin’ the breeze with them?

    I know that most people do not know that the federal agencies have always paid vast sums (millions? tens of millions? hundreds of millions?) of money on a nation wide basis to counties and maybe some municipalities in lieu of property taxes that they could be collecting directly from citizens where these agencies have a presence, that these entities could be collecting from private citizens if the federal government didn’t own land there. Which kind of makes sense. That way…when the sheriff’s office for example, patrols those areas of federal land or takes law enforcement action, the other residents of the county aren’t directly subsidizing those federal agencies while everyone else in the nation gets a free pass.

    So here is my question. Do you think the federal agencies are really saving money because municipalities and counties are sending their people to federal fires under the ICS system? I know they are not saving any money when those employees are actually on the fires since the federal agencies pay for all of their fire related expenses, that is how the City of Prescott made money on the GMIHC. I read some quotes from a federal wildland firefighter on the Okanogan Complex Fires who was commenting on how great it was to have so much help from the military and everybody else who was driving around and basically screwing the pooch burning through federal fire dollars when their help was really needed three days earlier. Pretty funny. No wait…that one is pretty sad.

    So the only place the federal agencies COULD be saving money is on the base eight salary and other costs associated with having those employees on the payroll. BUT…do you think that is REALLY a savings or is it dust a slight of hand in budget manipulations by federal congressional representatives who are writing the budgets in Washington D.C., to channel more federal dollars away from the federal agencies and to the counties and municipalities in the form of grant money and other subsidies, which if they are, I’m pretty sure they love because then they get credit or at least can take credit for bringing home the pork to their constituents?

    In other words, do you think the politicians are robbing Peter to pay Paul? I am pretty sure that is going to be anyone’s guess since tracking all of that money would take the entire firm of Price Waterhouse and Cooper full time and then there would still be hidden dollars and back channels for those dollars.

    I would like to know so that when I start ranting on ICS in the book I will never finish since for one thing I can’t even decide what to name it, I can sound semi-informed on the topic.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. You COULD ask those within the various agencies who are in a position to KNOW whether or not my hypnosis is true or not, but if they are in a position to KNOW, they are going to want to stay in that position or go higher, so they are not going to tell you the truth.

      In that case, you need someone who had a seat at the table but is retired and who is either no longer plugged into the system (off the reservation) and no longer cares what his or her peers think of them and are willing to call the balls and strikes as they see them, but those people are very few and far between.

      You need somebody like me, unfortunately…I wasn’t anywhere near successful enough to know that kind of stuff, for the most part. So…good luck finding out the answer to my question.

      But…I would like you to give it a shot Bob and see what “they” say. 🙂

      Reply

      • Yes and No How’s that for an answer Gary????
        First There was a need to integrate all agencies into an emergency organizational system ICS was created to do that as you note there are no names that reflect FIRE in any positions in ICS.
        So we have a couple of things going on with ICS.
        ONE—was the management need that added to the Federal fire program all of the other agencies State, County, City.
        TWO —FS AND BLM were not getting a lot of support from Non Fire people in the organization Starting around the 1990’s Which reduced the availability of the Fire camp positions, and reduced some other fire positions that timber, Recreation, Range and wild life people at one time did like crew bosses, and up. Along with the retirement of many highly qualified FIRE PEOPLE in the 90’s.
        So they started relying on other Agencies to fill the void.
        Three —-ICS was developed for all types of disasters and the integration of non fire people into the system began.

        Funding Has Gone Crazy——–It is hard to keep up with. Base 40 even on fire is paid from the unit budget. Last year I learned they were putting hotshots off on Comp time for OT hours worked so they were not getting Time and Half for all hours worked. Is that crazy or what.
        So no savings in budgeted fire personnel.
        I do not think they are telling the whole truth about the money they are taking— the last I heard they were taking budgeted funds from all programs to pay fire costs..
        We use to build a suppression cost over the year that Congress would pay into the year end cost as an overrun unfunded cost.
        Now they spend all allotted funds and congress then decides on reimbursement. From their I start getting lost Essentially the funded programs lose all there funding other than guaranteed wages. All projects not done or completed in Range, Recreation, Timber, wildlife watershed etcetera are taken to pay suppression costs Also any of those functions that fight fire there base pay goes into the fire wages.
        So the Catch 22 They do not want to fight fire and there supervisors wont send them. Not the FS we once knew.
        I probably missed the entire thing but it is a mess.

        Thus my funny you caught on THE TIME SHITS–SHEETS

        Reply

          • That is a lot of info I need to digest and I do thank you for that.

            However, I must have not explained my primary question very well so I will try again.

            Do you or your sources think the politicians are taking (skimming it off the top or siphoning it off the bottom or whatever) money that otherwise would have gone to the federal agencies and may have in fact gone to federal agencies in the past to pay for their own nfirefighters to send to local, county and state agencies to pay for their firefighters (or even other personnel) so there is no real savings, the money is just re-allocated from the federal agencies to the local, county and state agencies.

            Although I am confusing even myself with that question.

            So let me try it this way. Do you or your sources think the reason there weren’t any replacement firefighters for all those who retired in the 90’s is because they gutted the federal fire programs in the 80’s (which I think they did, actually starting in the late 70’s) to reduce the federal budget under that son-of-a-bitch Ronald Reagan?

            So we ended up with a lot of Darrell Willis’ and Gary Cordes’ instead of some good wildland firefighters and now the USFS and BLM benches are so depleted that can’t field any or very few top teams anymore?
            Whew!

            I am still looking for some more “they” to blame more problems on..

            Reply

            • Although they never really reduced the federal budget, they just reallocated from the 99% of us to the top 1%, killing off a real big par to the middle class in the process. They scared everybody talking about welfare queens so they could redirect almost all of the money to the corporate welfare kings, guys like The Donald, Mitt Romney and all of their friends.

              I know it seems like I keep getting sidetracked with politics but I believe it is all connected 99% (or something like that) has gone to the top 1% and now there are very few middle class federal wildland firefighters anymore which has a direct impact on all of those poor people when Mr. Wildfire comes knocking at their doors in their wildland urban interface slices of heaven on a bun.

              I am just jealous because I have always had to live in cookie cutter subdivisions in cities. Don’t mind me, it’s all just sour grapes.

              Reply

              • Were you trying to give me a head ache ??????????

                State Fires—State pays all the Cost including County city and Federal resources. Co-op Resources

                BLM/FS/ NPS FIRES—Pays all resource costs all other Co-op Agencies time and equipment costs.
                They are all basically under contract.

                Same contracts as private contractors.

                The Fire in Wash. that started on DNR state lands I do not know if it got on FS land the Okanogan. So if it stayed on State, State paid all Costs until it got on the Forest and the Forest took it over and then played costs on the forest.

                So the only way a Fire would become a money maker for politicians is if the Feds used a lot of other Co-op Resources not there own.

                If a City or county suppresses a State or Federal Fire like the Yarnell hill fire then they are paid by that agency.
                The big word is Co-op.

                This year the Feds reduced severial wild land Engine Crews due to funding. And I think I herd severial Hot Shot Crews.

                Even facing this Fire season the Congress reduced the Fire Budget. You know how that goes One year the Gravy Train the Next the food line.

                To my Knowledge Urban Interface is not living off federal funding.

                The reason there were few replacements was they had not prepared the ones coming up and there were less in the secondary positions when the 25 to 35 year veterans bailed in a 5 year period that were filling GS7 to GS 11 positions, also the Mandatory age 55 under Fire and LE hit in the Mid to late 90’s
                That was the biggest cause those Fireman starting in the big fir position build up of 1960 t0 1970 hit retirement at the same time period bam could not even fill FMO positions for 1 or 2 years it took 10 to get all the positions filled and the biggest hurt was fire line positions Division, OPS, and IC.

                Dose that help? I do not think politics was the cause.

                Reply

  173. Elizabeth said, “FINALLY! I am hearing through the grapevine that you finally came around. The fire was not Esperanza, though. It was Thirtymile.
    You are welcome.

    And I said, “Well, Elizabeth it was very nice to hear from you and you know I am willing and able to admin when I get it wrong. BUT…you are going to have to more specific this time? I did finally coma around on two things I know about but as far as I know the Thirtymile was not part of the equation. This is what I think I know.

    1. The system is broken, ICS broke it. The problems that killed the GMIHC are systemic.

    2. The deaths of the GMIHC are on Eric Marsh and to a similar extent Jesse Steed and no one else. Although there is complicated extenuating circumstances for both, Eric and Jesse own what happened.

    3. The Esperanza Fire was (as far as I know) the first time the broken system that is now ICS killed the new breed of hybrid firefighter, but very similar reasons killed hybrid firefighters on the Yarnell Hill Fire and now the fire near Twisp from the Okanogan Complex.

    Is there more?

    Gary

    Oh, and one more thing. I have decided to coin a new phrase. I am going to call what is happening and what has been apparently happening since at least the Esperanza Fire;

    THE RISE OF THE HYBRID FIREFIGHTER

    Pretty catchy…huh?

    Reply

    • Actually, I think I will call the book about the Yarnell Hill Fire I will never finish writing,

      “The Rise of the Hybrid Firefighter”

      or maybe even,

      “The Rise and Fall of the Hybrid Firefighter”

      What do you think?

      Maybe those who love ICS will even learn how to do it better and quit killing so many wildland firefighters?

      What do you think?

      ICS is not going away and neither are wildland urban interface problems, after all, everybody wants their own little slice of heaven on a bun…right? So between ICS, WUI and global warming…well, you know the rest.

      Reply

      • Oh, and one more reason…those sons-of-bitches MF budget cutting corporate welfare loving REPUBLICANS! Although I don’t actually think the DEMOCRATS are much better, just the less of two evils. Maybe Donald Trump is the answer? After all, he says he wants to Make American Great…Again.

        What do you think?

        Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 29, 2015 at 9:01 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> Oh, and one more thing. I have decided to coin a new phrase. I am going to
      >> call what is happening and what has been apparently happening since
      >> at least the Esperanza Fire;
      >>
      >> THE RISE OF THE HYBRID FIREFIGHTER

      In one of the articles that came out just after the most recent pointless loss of 3 US Forestry employees… the parents of Tom Zbyszewski ( who was only 20 years old ) told reporters WHY their son loved working as a US Forestry Wildland firefighter.

      It was so he could protect houses.

      http://www.fox23.com/ap/ap/top-news/3-firefighters-die-in-wildfire-after-vehicle-crash/nnNJK/

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————————
      All the dead were U.S. Forest Service firefighters. The agency identified them as Tom Zbyszewski, 20; Andrew Zajac, 26; and Richard Wheeler, 31. Their hometowns weren’t immediately released.

      Zbyszewski was a junior at Whitman College in Walla Walla, majoring in physics and active in the school’s theater department, the college’s president said in a statement. He was fighting a fire near his hometown of Carlton when he died.

      Zbyszewski’s parents had both fought wildfires for the Forest Service, and his mother, Jennifer, still works for the agency, overseeing trails and campgrounds in Okanogan National Forest. They said he enjoyed the work and he felt it was important to be able to protect the homes of people he knew.
      ————————————————————————————

      And there are now other photos in the MSM of people in the area attaching SIGNS they have made to the fronts of their evacuated, empty houses that all carry a similar message.

      One of them says ( quote )…

      “Dear Firefighters. Please stay SAFE. This is just a HOUSE.”

      Reply

    • Although I want you to know that I know I am not all that clever what…between the Rise of The Machines and somebody else coining the phrase, “hybrid firefighter” but still, sometimes I am clever enough to put two and two together and come up with a catchy phrase…right?

      Kind of gives you a vision of terminator type figures standing in between WUI houses and a raging inferno huh? With the prime directive to protect structures at all costs. Unfortunately, these figures don’t get up and live again after they have been incinerated.

      That last sentence was pretty harsh wasn’t it? I want every current or future wildland firefighter who may still be reading this thread to think about that one. Scary.

      Reply

  174. I thought I would Rimini’s and add some comments from a Wild Land Fire Fighter retired for the Past 21 years–
    We have had a few commenters on here who believe people like me are out of touch and Fighting fire is different to day than 20 or 30 years ago.
    Well you young pups are wrong—Other than a couple of newer tools the hand crews build line the same and Give me the old lady shovel over that new contraption you call a shovel combination scrapper. I could throw more dirt and scrape more line with my lady shovel at my age now than most of you could.
    Ok back to the discussion. You use Engines and water hose the same maybe the pumps are a little better still fight fire with water the same.
    Helicopters cats and air tankers are no different just bigger.

    The safety rules are the same
    the crew time reports are still the same
    the Individual time shits are still the same
    All the paper work is still the same.
    Government has not changed forms in 40 years.

    Think to your self’s if you stay in Fire for 30 years do you think you would ever forget what you learned, what you did, how you did it and all the rules regulations and forms you went by.
    It is a Carrier that if you loved it never leaves you.

    There were big fires 30 years ago even 50 we went thru droughts and big burns A big fire today is no different than a big fire in the past.

    The only difference with me today is I am 71 and thanks to my life as a FF my knees are bad my back has its problems I have Harding of the arteries my skin is thin and a few other ailments.
    But my brain is healthy and my memory has all the knowledge I gained over my 33 year carrier

    So don’t insult me or the other FF on here because we are retired we are still your brothers and sisters who know what you are going thru we have been there and done that.

    I am proud of all the Hot Shot crews out there still cutting line and controlling fires

    BE SAFE and BE PROUD It is the best dam job in the world. The memories will be with you till the day you die.

    OK my last piece on Fire Shelters. IF and I say IF a shelter can be built tat stays at 8 pounds and will withstand 2000 degrees then that would be the Fail safe we have wanted for 5o years.
    any thing less as proven by Yarnell will not do. So I wait for the great scientists to see if they have the answers yet.
    Until then plan and work to never have to use one.

    Thanks for the time to give you my thoughts. .

    Reply

    • Wow! It’s amazing.These thoughts mirror my own thoughts nearly exactly (I am admitting to a major change in how some wildland firefighters who are under bad influence from undesirable like structural firefighters, are now looking at structures as something that should be defended instead as being part of the fuel loading, but that should be changed back) and this posts really sums up most of what I have been thinking to myself for more than two years now.

      There are more fires now, and the fire season is longer, BUT I have been on fires that were every bit as big and bad as the Yarnell Hill Fire except hardly anybody cared about them because they were in the back country.

      Except for one thing, Bob said, “the Individual time shits are still the same” and in my case it was the individual “time sheets” although the individuals shits are probably still the same as well. hee, hee.

      May God Bless America and Wildland Firefighters (even the posers and wannabes).

      Reply

  175. At the risk of surprising some of you with my tenacity, I am going to try this one more time but I am going to try and choose my words very carefully and keep my post short.

    The circumstances under which Eric Marsh tried to move the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew to the backside of Yarnell is still unfathomable and unforgivable, but the reasons why he may have tried to do so are now a lot more understandable to me.

    Reply

    • And by all accounts… it SHOULD be even MORE ‘understandable’ at this point.

      It is still ASTOUNDING to know that there is every likelihood that Brendan McDonough DID finally ‘testify’ ( under-oath ) as part of that crazy one-sided ‘settlement’ announced the day before the second anniversary of the tragedy… but ( if he did ) NONE of what he said has been reported publicly by anyone.

      Did we NOT all watch that ‘dog and pony’ press conference and hear at least THREE different people at the podium ( Attorney Patrick McGroder, Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke ) all say unequivocally that “more information about the facts of that day WILL be forthcoming”.

      And every one of them put VOCAL emphasis on the “WILL be forthcoming” part.

      Ok. Fine.

      WHEN?

      Also… any word on the street WHEN this other mysterious (promised) 8 hour “question and answer” session between the new Arizona State Forester ( Whitney ) and the families of the victims is supposed to take place?

      Was it ALL just BULLSHIT at that press conference?

      Reply

      • There is still absolutely nothing in the ALJ its like the whole hearing stopped on May 28
        no final info on the out come and agreement between the parties.

        Reply

    • MY REPLY IN CAPS BELOW:

      Gary Olson says

      August 26, 2015 at 6:10 pm

      At the risk of surprising some of you with my tenacity,NO, IT IS ONE OF THE NECESSITIES IS HAVING SOMEONE WHO HAS HISTORY IN THE FIELD LIKE YOU AND OTHERS TO SHARE ABOUT FIRE AND FIRE MANAGEMENT HERE AND THE CHANGES OR LACK OF…TO ME, SONNY AND BOB AND GARY FALL IN THE SAME LEVEL OF SAYING IT LIKE YOU SEE IT…ISN’T AMERICA BEAUTIFUL…

      Reply

      • Yes, it is. God Bless the First Amendment.

        FYI – I really like the other day when Bob said structures should be treated like they are part of the fuel bed.

        A house is a HOME to the owner, but to me when I was a wildland firefighter, that structure was nothing more than potential fuel for a wildfire. I think part of the problem is that wildland firefighters today are getting caught up in the structural firemen mentality that they need to save homes. They don’t. They need to stop wildfires. There is a big difference.

        Reply

        • A suggested title for Gary: A FIREFIGHTER’S ANALYSIS OF THE MISMANAGED YARNELL HILL FIRE THAT KILLED 19 YOUNG FIREFIGHTERS. Maybe a bit lengthy but some others here will be good at helping you find an appropriate title.

          Reply

    • Thank you Bob, because of your in depth experience on the job and personal connections you explained it a lot better than I did or can. And I do apologize to you, J. Stout and others for losing sight momentarily in my passion to hold the system accountable for their actions on the Esperanza Fire (which I had never looked into before the Twisp fire) what I believe happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire, and now the shocking news of the deaths and injuries here in Washington.

      Once again, I firmly believe Eric Marsh ordered his crew to do something so reckless and dangerous it absolutely defies all logic and therefore takes crazy to an entirely different level that no one can explain. And yes, Jesse Steed had a solemn duty and responsibility to refuse to do what he was ordered to do in spite of all of the extenuating circumstances.

      Apparently I also owe apologies to everyone I argued with over the past two years insisting the system was sound with some anomalies since I now believe the system is broken. And I believe the ICS done broke it. And I know the ICS is so entrenched and completely dominate that is never going to change and engine crews may actually be at more risk than hotshot crews because they are being sent in by structure protection specialists to defend empty buildings. In my blissful ignorance, I actually had no idea that was happening. Since I had never researched the Esperanza fire, I have believe for years now that was just some kind of freak accident and aberration.

      It has been a long and often winding path, but I have learned a great deal about something I thought I was up to speed on. And that knowledge has shocked me. Things HAVE dramatically changed since I was on the fire line, not only has wildland urban interface taken priority over natural resource protection but wildland firefighters are being asked (ordered) to pay the price for everyone’s selfish desire to live in interface zones and they either can’t afford to make their property “fire-wise” with defensible space or just as prevalent I believe, they like the “natural” look as opposed to trimmed trees and cut back vegetation.

      In other words, the problem is so big, I don’t see how anyone is going to make it better and it is likely to get a lot worse.

      Reply

      • I will add that when I retired in 1994 ICS was mostly in Fire a combination of FS and BLM with some Park service thrown in on type 1 Teams.

        It has since changed and I like you are some what mystified by the current changes and Organization structure and what is happening in mutual coop.

        This in fact I believe as stated earlier is THE NEW KILLER OF WILD LAND FIRE FIGHTERS.

        If We already know that only 2% of all structures are Fire safe or can be protected then there needs to be a whole new evaluation of what Wild Land Agencies should and should not do. If there is time in some cases they can do a lot to provide protection way ahead of the FIRE. like Fire breaks and foam treatment but those should be at least 12 to 24 hours in advance protecting structures during IA is
        not a safe approach prior to suppression action— Line Construction—Anchor point, line and safety should preclude structure protection.

        There be more incidents where there were Engine Burn overs or close calls than we are aware of I would almost bet on it. As long as no injury or damage it was looked over. nothing was said or done JUST PART OF FIRE FIGHTING?????

        Reply

          • Once again, thank you for that insight. I was totally ignorant of the fact that during my absence, the once unthinkable (ordering wildland firefighters to go into evacuated areas to defend empty buildings) has now become Standard Operating Procedure.

            Which I guess would explain why the real sweetheart who is running the Twisp Fire SAIT has such a cold indifferent attitude that seems to say, “War is hell and death is part of the equation” and “You can’t make an omelet without breaking some eggs so get over it!”

            And I couldn’t believe it. Last night I actually listened to a wildland firefighter from the Okanogan Fire Complex (at least he looked like one, I don’t have any idea who he worked for) on the local news here is Washington actually use the phrase, “Risk a lot to save a lot.” Shocking.

            Reply

            • Checking on this little fraise with friends nothing yet.
              But severial could not believe it was out there in the WLF community.

              Reply

  177. “The thinking of the GMIHC was not the problem however, the thinking of almost everyone else involved with that fucking fire was the real problem. (I finally found a way to blame the system instead of the crew and I’m sticking to this story…so fuck off!)”

    OK…I re read my posts and I found this one, I did get a little worked up writing this paragraph, but I just got back from getting a massage so I can now see very clearly that I should have nuanced this paragraph a lot more. I keep forgetting we are not in a bar dissecting the last fire where we can simply yell out, YOU ARE FULL OF SHIT!.

    What I should have said is “”The thinking of the GMIHC was not the ONLY problem AS I HAVE BEEN ERRONEOULSY LED TO BELIEVE however, the thinking of almost everyone else involved with that fucking FORNICATING fire was the real problem. AS WELL (I finally found a way to blame the system instead of the crew and I’m sticking to this story…so fuck off! IF YOU ARE SO INLCLINED, BUT YOU DON’T HAVE TO) THIS LAST PART WAS MEANT TO BE TONGUE IN CHEEK SINCE I HAVE ALWAYS TRIED TO BLAME THE SYSTEM AND BE AN ADVOCATE FOR THE CREW BUT I FINALLY GAVE UP, JUST A LITTLE TO SOON, BUT I THOUGHT YOU PEOPLE (TRIPIC THUNDER) HAD LEARNED HOW TO READ MY MIND BY NOW. I AM NOW TRYING TO NUANCE MY MOST RECENT TAKE ON WHAT HAPPENED AND I HAVE COME TO THE CONCLUSION THAT THE PROBLEM GOES FAR, FAR, FAR, BEYOND MARSH, STEED (AND I STILL DON’T REALLY COUNT HIM FOR ALL OF THE REASONS I HAVE NAMED ALL ALONG) AND YES…GULP….HEM AND HAW….CLEAR MY THROAT, PAUSE FOR EFFECT…EVEN, DARE I SAY THE NAME…DARRELL WILLIS.

    Reply

    • And yes, Marti Reed had concluded the system was deeply flawed a long time ago and said so several times, but I argued over and over again with her. I kept telling her that the system was sound and it was her thinking that was flawed because what happened to the GMIHC on the YHF was an aberration. So to quote President George W. Bush, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee – I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee – that says, fool me once, shame on – shame on you. Fool me – you can’t get fooled again” Lighting has now struck 3 times in exactly the same place that I know about, the Esperanza Fire, the Yarnell Hill Fire and now the fire near Twisp, Washington. So…what the hell is going on out there?

      Reply

      • I am still behind on my posting ( because of circumstances beyond my control on this end ) but I still intend to draw more ‘parallels’ myself between what happened to those poor men less than a week ago ( Twisp ) and what happened to those poor men over two years ago ( Yarnell ).

        One of the things I have sitting in a post that isn’t finished yet but fits right in with you posting now is the fact that if you go to the various Okanogan Fire District station websites… they BRAG about how they are BOTH ‘Structural AND Wildland’.

        In that part of the world ( where 4 people died in the Thirtymile file and now 3 others have died in the same damn COUNTY )… they are making NO DISTINCTION WHATSOEVER between ‘Structural Firefighting’ and ‘Wildland Firefighting’.

        To them ( in THAT part of the world )… it’s ALL THE SAME.

        There is one photo of one of the Type 6 engines from one of the Okanogan Fire District Stations where there were so proud of the fact that they have their feet firmly in both ends of the pool that the photo shows how one entire side of the Brush truck storage has all the Wildland Firefighting shit… and the other side of the truck has all the Structural Firefighting shit.

        So YES… the PROBLEM is systemic.

        It’s not just isolated. There is a MENTALITY that is being allowed to exist in the business that is getting people KILLED.

        I am also still about to post a shitload of radio scanner transmission transcripts from that tragic day less than a week ago that were being written in public in REAL TIME by some people in the Methow Valley area posting to a specific thread on Facebook.

        In that thread… there is even direct mention of the moment this “Woods Canyon Road” fire shifted into “Unified Command Authority”.

        There is then a scanner transcription of someone in fire command issuing the directive (quote) “DO NOT GO UP WOODS CANYON ROAD”.

        Not too long after that… the multiple ( at least TWO ) engines and crews that ended up going up that road, anyway, all got ‘caught’ with a sudden wind change… and now 3 of them are dead and still no word whether a fourth will ever get out of the hospital.

        I promise I’ll post more details about all this very soon… but you nailed it earlier with you ‘Unified Command’ observations down below. That ‘command structure’ ( or lack thereof ) was as much ‘at play’ with regards to what happened less than a week ago in Twisp as it was over two years ago in a place called Yarnell.

        Reply

        • Followup… I still promise I will post the REST of this Facebook thread from last Wednesday that was documenting what was happening in Twisp just last Wednesday in REAL TIME…

          …but here is the part mentioned above when some of the posters who were listening to radio scanners and posting what they were hearing in REAL TIME last Wednesday confirmed that the “Woods Canyon Road” fire had just switched to “Unified Command Authority”.

          All TIMES ( in the first column ) are Wednesday, August 19, 2015.
          The number in the second column is actually just an index number to WHO was posting the message which will be explained when I post this entire Facebook thread.

          Hint: Poster with index number 02 was someone who was publicy identifying herself as ‘Melody Long’. She has a Forestry Service ICON on her own personal Facebook page and she was an expert with radios. She was monitoring multiple radios and frequencies while last Wedneday’s even was unfolding and she was typing what she was was hearing over her radios in REAL TIME into the Facebook thread.

          She ( Melody Long, poster 02 ) was the one who immediately reported the moment when there was the first helicopter engaging and then ( just 60 seconds later ) the moment when the “Woods Canyon Fire” incident was transitioning to “Unified Command Authority”…

          ———————————————————————-
          |3:19|009|I am in tears…i just cant find my big girl panties today at all. I think they burnt up…
          |03:23|016|Me eaither I am in Wenatchee I can’t do this another year. My daughter needs to.move
          |03:19|027|I live on twisp ave I’m at central Washington hospital waiting to have a thyroid scan is my street ok,
          |03:41|002|i don’t know
          |03:59|029|Beverly town is fine, and if you give me your address I’ll go turn your water on for you. PM me please.
          |03:19|003|City is currently ok
          |03:20|002|twisp town is fine. it is up twisp river at elbow coulee
          |03:20|016|And poor man Creek Road
          |03:22|002|one rotor on scene now
          |03:23|002|doing unified command now, with all fire crews
          ———————————————————————–

          Much more to come. I promise.

          Reply

  178. Well…I think my work here is finally done. I have managed to piss off everyone on both sides of this issue. Which based on my experience of living in a world without color and only has shades of grey, probably means I am RIGHT ON TARGET! So…you know the rest.

    Reply

    • Gary— I guess in my post I should have added more

      At the Time I was thinking Gary did not say all of what he really believed about the Crew.

      I know you did not fully state all your thoughts and I did not follow up.

      As I said the system holds some Blame, The crew leaders hold the final decision.

      No you never pissed me off, I understood what you were getting at and agree with you.

      The focus is on way more than one mistake on Yarnell hill Fire .

      Reply

  179. Well, I have been held accountable for my latest posts here. I think you can deduce from my responses defending my position what the challenges were.

    Yes, what happened to the GMIHC it is complicated and I get carried away sometimes and try to paint it in either black or white instead of shades of grey. The GMIHC were a product of their environment and they took it to another whole level.

    As I keep saying, an entire hotshot crew going that way is unprecedented in history. It was a perfect storm of culture, hubris, fire mismanagement and the new normal. What happened to those guys here in Washington really shocked me and showed me that what happened on the Esperanza Fire was not an anomaly, which I thought it was. So yes, it was the mindset of the GMIHC, but it wasn’t just their thinking, I guess that is the difference, I now realize that their thinking permeates the entire corrupted system.

    Reply

  180. I have had a revelation and I want to share it with you, because you are among my closest friends. The fucking system is broken and the fucking idiots who broke it are either too stupid to know it, or have so much invested in breaking it that they can’t admit it to themselves much less anyone else.

    First things first. I owe an apology to Mr.Turbyfill and anyone else I have offended by saying the structural firefighting culture and mindset of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew (GMIHC) was the primary cause of their deaths. In the very first article John Dougherty wrote on this subject, in which he quoted me as much as he quoted everyone else put together, he used the phrase the GMIHC was a “blueprint for disaster”, which agreed with my thinking entirely. The thinking of the GMIHC was not the problem however, the thinking of almost everyone else involved with that fucking fire was the real problem. (I finally found a way to blame the system instead of the crew and I’m sticking to this story…so fuck off!)

    Secondly, I owe apologies to Jim Karels, Mike Dudley and the remainder of the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT), these men aren’t sell-outs to the system, they are buy-ins. They have bought into the new norm hook, line and sinker. I have been watching the “new” Jim Karels (and he works for the USFS) who is running the equivalent of the SAIT under whatever new acronym they are using to try and get in front of the Twisp, Washington fire disaster. This asshole makes Karels look like a warm and fuzzy guy you would like to close the Green Onion with. And if you haven’t been following our little experiment in social media all along, that is a reference to my years on the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew where we always talked about the last fire, the next fire or some other fire. This guy is a real Terminal Asshole (TA) as opposed to Karels, who I now think is just a run-of-the-mill Situational Asshole (SA). And as far as Dudley goes…enough said.

    I used to believe that the GMIHC were an anomaly and that wildland firefighting managers like Darrell Willis were an aberration, but I was wrong, crews and managers like them are now the new norm, I am the odd man out. I have never tried this experiment myself, but they say if you drop a frog into a boiling pot of water, the frog will immediately jump out. But if you put a frog into a pot of cold water and slowly bring it to a boil, you can cook him.

    So you see, it goes like this. I am still a wildland firefighter at heart and in my thinking, nothing has really changed since I have been on the fire line except that the Incident Command System is now completely accepted whereas during my last years in fire, we were still in transition from the old Large Fire Organization (LFO) to ICS. And as a result of that, most of us still thought in terms of LFO but we mouthed the corresponding language of the new bastardized system. So I am like the frog who jumps out of the water because it is boiling hot. Too many other wildland firefighters have become complacent while they are slowly being boiled alive.

    Why do I can it a bastardized system you may ask? Because quite simply the ICS was designed to be all things to all people, kind of like the guy who is a jack-of-all-trades and a master-of-none. Just think of the ICS system as taking the really big Swiss Army knife that doesn’t fit into your pocket hunting with you when what you really need is a good hunting knife to gut that animal you are going to shoot…sniper style. You don’t really want or need tweezers, a toothpick, a magnifying glass or a bottle opener or any of those other attachments for that job do you? Hell no! So just picture LFO as a good skinning knife while you are standing there looking at a dead Cecil The Lion thinking to yourself, how am I going to cut that lions head off with this Swiss Army knife? You will eventually be able to get the job done, but it will be a real mess when you finally finish.

    Lastly, I want to make an offer to Mr. Turbyfill in this format, because I don’t have his email address and that is just about the only way I communicate with anyone anymore. BUT…he has mine, which is [email protected]. Mr. Turbyfill wrote on this thread that he needs help with his ideas and that he can’t do it alone any longer. Which came as quite a surprise to me, because I thought everything to develop a new and improved fire shelter was proceeding quite nicely…what the hell?

    So…I asked God or the Cosmos or no one in particular, take your pick, how can I help Mr. Turbyfill in his quest without compromising my own principles. And then it came to me out in an answer from God, or the Cosmos or out of nowhere in particular, take your pick. Our goals are not mutually exclusive! Wildland firefighters could have both a new and improved fire shelter which as Mr. Turbyfill wrote, does not necessarily have to be bulkier and heavier. And they can have enhanced training in where, when and how to use their new and improved fire shelters (think…How Big Is Big Enough?) with an re-emphasis on the 10 and the 18 just in case there are other crews out there who think the rules are “hillbilly” and that they are smarter than everyone else. That way, we can make Bob happy at the same time…it will be a win, win, win.

    So the bottom line is this Mr. Turbyfill, if you would like my help, please email me. I have a lot of ideas how I can help you and some of them might even be good ones or at least OK ones. I would also like to help you because as I have said a couple of times, I have always preferred direct action over blogging. And if I help you, I will be more than happy to be anonymous since I am quite aware that although I have earned some supporters with my blogging, I’m pretty sure my detractors outnumber them by a substantial amount. And I don’t want someone to want to kill the messenger so bad they won’t even wait to hear the message. What say you? (Lord Of The Rings)

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. Here is the bottom line. I couldn’t see the forest because of all of the trees. But now the blinders have been lifted from my eyes.

      Andrew Ashcraft, Robert Caldwell, Travis Carter, Dustin Deford, Christopher MacKenzie, Eric Marsh, Grant McKee, Sean Misner, Scott Norris, Wade Parker, John Percin, Anthony Rose, Jesse Steed, Joe Thurston, Travis Turbyfill, William Warneke, Clayton Whitted, Kevin Woyjeck, and Garret Zuppiger, all died in the same way and for the very same reasons Jason McKay, Jess McLean, Daniel Najera, Mark Loutzenhiser, and Pablo Cerda all died on the Esperanza fire. And furthermore, all of these men died in the same way and for the very same reasons that Tom Zbyszewski, Richard Wheeler, and Andrew Zajac died, and four others were burned, one very seriously, on the wildfire complex near Twisp, Washington.

      They were all fighting wildfire under a very flawed and bastardized system that I know is not going to change, which will result in more wildland firefighters being killed in the future in the same way and for the same reasons. So…heads up!

      Reply

      • And there are certainly others, these men are just the ones I can name right now without doing any further research.

        Reply

        • And I should have clarified my position on fire shelters. I am not against all fire shelters all of the time.

          I actually agree with Dr. Putnam in that fire shelters can and have worked well under the correct conditions. For example, I saw first hand how fire shelters could have saved the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire disaster. One hotshot even survived having almost all of the clothes burned off his back and legs.

          I’m just against an overdependence on them and counting on them to save you from yourself or encourage wildland firefighters to take unacceptable risks because they have one available if things go south on them in a New York Minute.

          Reply

        • Nor I—-The system may have helped with the Problem but Marsh & Steed made there choice knowing the Rules and the right to say no.
          Personal responsibility is still the bottom line.

          Reply

          • And Bob, you are a much bigger fan of ICS than I am, I don’t mean any disrespect, but how long have you been in the pot? Maybe it’s time you check the water temperature?

            Reply

            • And please remember one thing. I was the ultimate insider and then I left f0r 30 years and worked or had any significant contact with anybody except law enforcement agents and officers who had never given any more thought to wildfires than any other John Q. Public has.

              And then I suddenly came back and I am now learning (after 2 years here) that the fire management of today is a lot different than the fire management of my misspent youth. And I approach it from the grunt and ground pounder perspective since I never worked in any fire management jobs (other than in an office) above that level.

              Marsh and Steed were wrong. But the ICS system who can order engine crews to stand and defend empty structures historical or not…is really fucked up. And I will say it one more time, I thought Marsh, Steed and Wills were anomalies, I now realize they were the new normal. They may have taken it to a much higher level of crazy, but I now think the crazies are running the insane asylum.

              Reply

              • And That I totally agree with.
                As I said what is happening in the Urban Interface what are wild land FF thinking why are we trying to save un-savable structures at the cost of Trapping FF the new threat to wild land FF.

                Explaining ICS would be a long and drawn out process.
                simply we are putting Structure Fire Fighters and other non Wild land People in a supervisory role who have little back ground in Wild Land Fire. They may be supervisors they may have some people with good WLF back ground but they are making the decisions in the new multiagency concept.
                Some of the Type 1 and 2 IC’s are more at home running emergencies like Structure fires, Floods, Hurricanes, Tornados and earth quakes than WILD FIRE.
                ICS has gone beyond replacement of the old Fire Boss, Line Boss, Division Boss, Sector Boss, Crew Boss, Engine Boss, Cat Boss ETC Each one was specific to Wild Land Fire.
                To get to the top you went thru every one of them not just some not just book training on the ground service And ratings as a trainee to the next step. ALL WILD LAND FIRE NOTHING ELSE MADE THE QUALIFICATIONS.

                ICS any one and every one in any FF capacity are given ratings now Capitan’s on municipal fire companies are Strike team leaders. City and county employees are cross trained in ICS.

                Classic example—My son in law a city engineer in Wash. went to the S courses and became Qualified as a Equipment Manager under ICS Fire camp Never saw a fire in his live but was sent to fire Camp in Northern Wash. attached to a Team.
                So how deep is this S course and your Qualified going?

                That I believe is what Gary was getting at Do people rated under ICS as in command understand Wild land Fire?
                Is that the new shadow killer of WLFF.?

                Reply

        • I will have to re-read my posts, but I don’t think I absolved Marsh or Steed of any blame. There were still responsible for the fate of the GMIHC and nothing will ever change that fact. What I am trying to share with you is the shocking (to me anyway) revelation that now 3 USFS wildland firefighters have died the same way for the same reasons. Do either you or Bob see any significant differences on what of the crews was trying to accomplish except we can only make educated guesses on why the GMIHC left the black whereas I think it is an established fact that fire overhead sent those engine crews in there.

          Reply

          • Fire overhead sent those engine crews in there (at Twisp). At the YHF, what fire overhead told GM was to “hunker and be safe.” I’m unable to describe those two circumstances as “having died the same way for the same reasons.” Although I do get your point about a seemingly common issue concerning structure protection.

            Reply

            • I was referring to a conclusion that was reached by some on this thread and me from the very beginning, that Granite Mountain was officially told to hunker down and be safe, but there was either a stated or unstated expectation that they would in fact go to Yarnell to help.

              The latest thought (which I buy into) is that they were in fact responding to a last minute idea by somebody to backfire from a hastily built dozer line, Now I realize that is just educated guessing on our part, but I have never thought Marsh dreamed that plan up by himself. I still think somebody else was involved.

              Reply

              • Gary–I see we have a new hybrid firefighter –The urban interface firefighter. As WTKTT noticed all they need do is run to the other side of the fire truck to change face from Wild Land to Urban Fighter Uniform and equipment. Park the truck boys we are now headed out to the mountain and when on the mountain– head back to the truck–the fire is now threatening the Urban housing–good luck on getting back to the structures safely. Nineteen gone attempting that and three more in Washington doing that Urban Interface job down.

                This is the new think–kind of thinking that lives are expendable–houses priority. When drafted I was told take care of the equipment–we can get another grunt but not another jeep.

                Reply

                  • And, it is rather evident that the motto of the new Hybrid Firefighter is “Risk a lot to save a lot.”

                    Perhaps they will soon have their motto printed on their T-shirts, and painted on their vehicles.

                    Reply

    • Try to comment via cell. amen gary. praise to Above. all you just stated now compliments my beliefs and comprehension …thank you. i hope as well mr. t emails you. thank u again …you spoke well how I view it all…by the way I have boiled frogs as a testand same as crabs and you don’t have to do it from cold state just need to have knowledge and experience how to drop in boiling water

      Reply

  181. Bob said, “The new killer of wild land Fire Fighters is Urban Interface.”

    I agree with this statement. BUT…I think it is only part of the story. The rest of the story is that ICS is the killer of federal wildland firefighters.

    The price the federal (USFS, NPS, USFWS, BIA) wildland firefighters pay for having local, county and state fire fighters, who may or may not be wildlad firefighters, in fact, in the case of local firefighters they will almost always be structural firefighters who have had some wildland firefighting training with a very limited amount of experience, go to fires on National Forests, National Parks, National Wildlife Refuges and Indian Reservations is to go to THEIR fires and work under THEIR managers in integrated fire teams and unified command staff.

    And of course since the 800 pound gorilla is the USFS, the burden falls most heavily on them. No USFS, NPS, USFWS or BIA fire team would have ever ordered federal wildland firefighters into wildland urban interface zones to protect structures prior to the implementation of ICS.

    ICS killed USFS wildland firefighters Tom Zbyszewski, age 20, Andrew Zajac, age 26 and Richard Wheeler, age 31.

    Reply

      • Oh, and one more thing. I think the Incident Command System killed the five USFS wildland firefighters on the Esperanza Fire as well. They were defending a vacant house after the area had already been evacuated. The house burned down.

        Reply

  182. I wanted to respond to this posting that WTKTT posted down below.

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-305243

    If you go down to the FF running down the road and the picture of Fire fighters protecting a non protectable structure they are the same people.

    In the Picture of the home and structure if you look almost in the center of the picture above the red truck you will see a front of a fire Engine.

    In the picture of the crew running you will see the fire engine in front of the Garage leaving the place where it was and driving out the drive way.

    This is the worst case of trying to protect property that can not possibly be saved I have ever seen in this situation look at the structures the grass brush and trees right to the very walls at least 3 spot fires you can see.

    My question is that the engine that wreaked and burned or another engine????

    Why do we put Fire Fighters in that kind of a situation it is a death trap pure and simple.

    Reply

    • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 23, 2015 at 3:02 pm

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> I wanted to respond to this posting that WTKTT posted down below.
      >>
      >> http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-305243
      >>
      >> If you go down to the FF running down the road and the picture of
      >> Fire fighters protecting a non protectable structure they are the same people.

      Yes. The picture at the TOP of the article appears to be the LATER one… after they waited too long to decide what they were doing was worthless and now we see them RUNNING towards safety.

      Even the caption on the photo is “Firefighters FLEE!…”

      SIDENOTE: I haven’t been able to pinpoint where these 2 photos were taken… but that homestead doesn’t appear to be on either Woods Canyon Road ( where the deaths took place ) or on the Twisp River Road… and these certainly do NOT seem to be photos of any of the FFs who were killed or injured on August 19, 2015.

      >> Bob Powers said…
      >>
      >> In the Picture of the home and structure if you look almost in the center
      >> of the picture above the red truck you will see a front of a fire Engine.

      Yes. It is there. Some of them must have been BEHIND the structure at that point… doing WHAT? Backburns? In the photo of them running the guy still has his drip torch in his hand so I wonder if that’s what they were doing behind that house.

      >> Bob Powers also wrote…
      >>
      >> In the picture of the crew running you will see the fire engine in front
      >> of the Garage leaving the place where it was and driving out the drive way.

      Yes. It has moved to right in front of the ‘garage’ while those other four FFs are
      out running away on the road.

      >> Bob Powers also said…
      >>
      >> This is the worst case of trying to protect property that can not possibly
      >> be saved I have ever seen in this situation look at the structures the grass
      >> brush and trees right to the very walls at least 3 spot fires you can see.
      >>
      >> My question is that the engine that wreaked and burned or another engine????

      It is highly unlikely that that is the engine that wrecked on Woods Canyon Road or that those are any of the FFs that were killed or injured that day… but I still can’t verify exactly where or when those photos were taken. There’s no EXIF data in the ones that were published with that article. Maybe original copies of those photos will surface.

      >> Bob Powers also wrote…
      >>
      >> Why do we put Fire Fighters in that kind of a situation it is a death trap pure and simple.

      I keep looking at these two photos, and the homestead, and the fire and I wonder… “What in the hell did they even THINK they were going to accomplish there at that place… with hand tools?”

      Also notice in the top photo as they are running away… only TWO of these ‘Hotshots’ even have any GLOVES on.

      Even the WFF carrying the DRIP TORCH has NO GLOVES.

      By the way… it is now looking to be VERY likely that this “Twisp River / Woods Canyon Road” fire which resulted in 3 fatalities was man-made.

      Okanogan County was having a lot of fires… but THIS one that was first reported about 1:30 PM on Wednesday, August 19, literally “came out of a clear blue sky”.

      There had been no lightning strikes in that specific residential area.
      There were no storms in the area that day. It was literally a “clear blue sky”.
      There were no ’embers’ falling from any other fire. Nothing was even that close.

      There are also reports of OTHER ‘spot fires’ popping in Okanogan County “out of nowhere” that day with some people independently reporting seeing a ‘white van’ speeding away from other ‘sudden’ fires in the surrounding area… like the one that also appeared “out of nowhere” in Tonasket and also eventually led to Tonasket being evacuated.

      The US Forestry Service HAS announced they are actively “investigating the cause of the Twisp River / Woods Canyon Road” fire… and someone has reported on the Methow Valley Bulletin Board that arson investigators have been called in from Seattle along with something called a “tree pathologist”.

      Reply

      • If it is Arson and the suspect is caught They can be tried for Murder
        3 counts right now. Federal and State Laws.
        Also over on Wildland Fire They are saying there are 6 different investigations on this fire and the Fatalities.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 24, 2015 at 8:50 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> If it is Arson and the suspect is caught They can be tried for Murder.

          Yes… and CONVICTED as well.

          And it should be noted that the entire area WAS under a total ‘Burn Ban’ because of the EXTREME drought and fire conditions and all of the already-active fires in other places in that part of the world ( but not in Twisp as of Wednesday morning ).

          Violating a ‘Burn Ban’ and causing deaths or injuries is just as serious an offense ( and carries the same penalties, ultimately ) as straight arson.

          No one has come forward to even offer that as any kind of ‘excuse’, even if it was some attempt at a ‘burn’ which somehow got away from them… but then again… the whole matter is still under POLICE investigation so even if someone HAD come forward at this point we probably would NOT be hearing about it ( yet ).

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> Also over on Wildland Fire They are saying there are 6 different
          >> investigations on this fire and the Fatalities.

          That would be THIS page, correct?…

          http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/08/23/more-information-released-about-the-3-firefighter-fatalities-near-twisp-washington/

          That list ( as per Mr. Gabbert ) is…

          ——————————————————————–
          At least six investigations are going on concurrently:

          1. Coordinated Response Protocol/Learning Review; ( US Forestry )

          2. Office of Inspector General ( as required by the Cantwell-Hastings legislation, Public Law Public Law 107-203);

          3. OSHA;

          NOTE: Washington State is like Arizona. They have their OWN State-level version of OSHA called LIDOSH.

          It is called “LIDOSH” because it’s part of the State’s “Labor and Industry” department and the DOSH part is the same as Arizona’s ADOSH… “Department Of Safety and Health”.

          4. Washington DNR investigation into injuries to two of their employees;

          5. Forest Service law enforcement;

          6. County Sheriff.
          ———————————————————————–

          Reply

            • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 24, 2015 at 5:50 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> yes that is it

              I thought it was interesting to learn, in that article, that the person US Forestry has actually ‘tasked’ with conducting THEIR investigation ( John Phipps, who currently serves as Station Director of the U.S. Forest Service Rocky Mountain Research Station in Fort Collins, Colorado ) is still just coming “up to speed” on the new “Coordinated Response Protocol” and isn’t even exactly sure what “reports” he’s supposed to produce… for what target audience(s)… or whether they are even supposed to made ‘public’ or not.

              From the article above…

              —————————————————————
              The investigation team is using the Coordinated Response Protocol which was developed in 2014. Part of that process is a Learning Review which, according to a four-page document released by the USFS last year, “is designed to produce at least two learning products, one for the field and one for organizational leadership”. When asked about the process during the news conference, Mr. Phipps appeared to be unfamiliar with the “learning products”, and said he did not know if they would both be released to the public.
              —————————————————————

              Notice that even according to this 4 page ‘blurb’ that US Forestry released last year regarding their new ‘CRP’ approach… there is no longer ANY mention of anything called a “FACTUAL Management Report”. The ONLY thing it even mentions as ‘goals’ now are two different ‘Learning’ products… one for the field and one for (quote) “organizational leadership”.

              So say goodbye to any attempts at a “FACTUAL Management Report”. It’s all going to be just FLA ( Facilitated Learning Analaysis ) stuff.

              I’m also having a little trouble with the TIMES that were being reported by Mr. Gabbert for certain events on Wednesday.

              There is some evidence that those times are NOT CORRECT… but I’ll have something else to post about that shortly.

              Reply

              • If you took notice of the article there on the new concept and team make up there were severial Fire Fighters that responded in the negative to this type of investigation.
                Also referring to the poor investigation at Yarnell.
                Some real discourse out there.

                Reply

          • WTKTT–Total burn ban there with extreme fire danger are the exact same conditions that the Yarnell fire was in. And for some arsonists–seems that is a common thing. We had people here who have photos of two quads at the site of the Yarnell Hill Fire on Friday when it started. No investigator ever came to us to find who has the photos. Everyone swears that a lightning bolt hit and started the fire and a few have told us they actually saw the bolt hit and then smoke after. Well we did go to the site several times where the bolt was supposed to hit. Usually it is a tall tree. cactus or something that attracts the bolt, though it could have perhaps hit a rock. I have seen plenty Yucca, Pine or other trees hit in various areas but never could locate anything in that area. I do know it takes some time for smoke to appear after a strike and maybe someone has that information–one of the hot shots or smoke jumpers would know –Bob or Gary perhaps. Still it would be interesting to know why those quads were there where the fire started.

            Reply

      • WTKTT — Thanks for posting that photo of that river running red. Too bad for so much aquatic wild life. The only excuse for dumping into a river like that would be hopes of saving human life. Generally the fish loss is in the thousands when a river is contaminated that heavily. People are not realizing the damage it does to lungs as well. We just keep on smoking and breathing these chemicals until the lungs get so plugged up we either wind up winded on short walks, or a ventilator or as in the case of Yarnell where lungs of the aged were already at their threshold–death ensues.

        And to top all this off, we dissolve the lives of our wild land firefighters. Looking at the three recent deaths being discussed it is just a repeat of Yarnell. Willis remember told us that is what they do–attempt to protect structures. They could not just sit still and safe–they had to prove their worth by following some assholes orders to descend down to Yarnell. As far as I am concerned Yarnell could have burned to the ground instead of loosing even one of those wild land fighters–Who the hell is stupid enough to think that those men could have made a difference by risking their necks with hand tools against a raging wild fire. Even the big firetrucks look puny against such a raging firestorm.

        Then you see that there was very little warning to save locals and not many were warned soon enough, many old folks here never got a warning and many only escaped by seeing the fire burning up their yards. Whew is this fire fighting situation screwed up here–better to dissolve the local fire department and let the locals take care of these things themselves. That fire would have been out on Friday night had the locals not believed in their own fire department. Trouble is people depend too damn much on others to protect their town and resources–but the government as well has put a noose on doing what ought to be done–let people start taking more responsibility for their own homes and lives.

        Consider that had the locals went up there to put it out when a group of kids could have–they would have violated laws of walking on state land without a pass–subject to fines and imprisonment there, then if they did put it out I can bet they would be subject to more fines and imprisonment for their good actions while a negligent fire department and fire fighting bosses that fucked up royally are getting promotions, awards and running for various political offices. This shit gets deep here–and too many are afraid to voice the truth here.

        I am glad we have people like Gary and Bob and WTKTT who are not afraid. What I say does not weigh much but I can certainly agree with their common sense and long time fire fighting expertise,

        Reply

        • i dont think wtktt is a wildlandfirefighter only bob and gary olsen are the only guys on her who still fight fires on the usfs payroll,,…, maybee norb ,,… Bobpowers and gary olsen still go out on fires as ADs. they 2 were hotshots for twenty or 30 years each ibut not wtktt i dont recall.

          hav a question 4 ya sonny..,,, the residents should have evacuated like you and Joy did by seeing the fire ,,… why did thy need emergency management to tell them to evacuate..,,,????/

          Reply

          • Dale1 just clarification on some of us.
            I have been retired for 21 years and not an AD at 71. To old to do what I loved to do any more.
            Gary is also retired and not an AD fire fighter.
            Norb is a Retired Fire Fighter fairly recently.
            RTS is retired but is working as an AD on a Team or just call up.
            J. Stout is also a FF not sure if retired but think so
            Some other Fire Fighters Current and retired have jumped in and out here
            WTKTT is not a FF but has been invaluable in the research and information we have put together he has done well at listing to us and learning and adding our input to his scenarios keeping us strait on the facts.

            The Management did not have a clear plan on evacuation which should have occurred first thing that morning as most fire try to get out 12 hours in advance no one ever asked why the team did not start evacuations that morning like happens on most fires 12 to 24 hours in advance.
            Another Failure by the Team. Many left any way and the others got out with out any civilian deaths although some were very close.

            Reply

          • Dale 1-Reason they need someone to warn them is that most in this community are retired elderly–some in wheel chairs. They even had to pick up one elderly lady 97 years of age–fire man going in found her in the smoke staggering around just as the fire was about to envelope her. She would have been a goner had that guy not been going in to check on the fire line. But I agree that you would think most would know but ignorance of fire behavior seems prevalent. While generally neighbors warn those in such condition sometimes here people next door just come up on weekends from Phoenix to get away from hell for a while. We are high enough that we are generally twenty degrees cooler than Phoenix and at least ten degrees cooler than Wickenburg. However, on June 30 that temperature was 106 degrees where the GMHS were at. And you know that in itself had some bad effects on their physical and mental states. They might have had more stamina to get away–let me tell you I was cajoling Joy because even the route I was taking was not one that I wanted to waste time on. She was adverse to dropping down in a boulder area and it was pretty taxing getting down the mountain where we went down–fortunately we made it and yet I even thought we had it beat by an hour but it turns out only ten minutes or less since it was already licking at the north edge of Glen Isla. What I did not know at the time was that there was a back burn going on at the Sesame Street area and that would put the fire really close to the north edge of Glen Isla—and when the wind reversed that fire was right there not about two miles north of where that back burn was and where I believed the fire was . Well I have been schooled enough now to know that you never know what to expect when you are dealing with many crews and fighters from distant places all trying to communicate with bad radios and bosses that are confused as to how to handle uncontrollable wild manzanita fires and apt to outguess weather men who have warned them of the impending change of wind direction.

            Reply

  183. I have read where Gov. Jay Inslee said that the blazes have “burned a big hole in our state’s heart, ” and urged residents to “thank a firefighter.”

    Well, Mr. Inslee, that was rather eloquently put, and it is commendable you would urge others in your state to take such an action as that. But perhaps you could ‘also’ find it a good idea for YOU to personally URGE your Regional Forester and the Chief of the Forest Service to change their ways and ‘stop’ using their wildland firefighters to try and save structures in urban interface areas. That just might demonstrate some real appreciation for wildland firefighters on your part. Let the USFS know there doesn’t need to be MORE family and friends of WFF’s (like Tom Zbyszewski, Andrew Zajac and Richard Wheeler) experiencing a big hole burned in THEIR hearts.

    I, for one, would like very much to hear you publicly say how you did exactly that.

    Reply

  184. Mr. Turbyfill,

    I don’t know why you would care whether I (or anyone who thinks like I do) agrees with you or not. I have been bitterly complaining that they are using wildland firefighters to try and save structures in wildland urban interface areas for more than 2 years now. And what has that achieved? Nothing!

    And now, it appears that is it a known fact that fire management personnel deliberately sent wildland firefighters into a nightmare scenario in an wildland urban interface residential area with cul de sacs, tight turn-a-round areas, narrow roads with lots of natural unmanaged vegetation to try and protect structures that have already been evacuated.

    So… all of the anecdotal evidence from this thread would seem to prove that my endorsement or support of your ideas would be the kiss of DEATH!

    And on a side note, President Ronald Reagan made a name for himself in part by FIRING air traffic controllers for staging a walk out. It is illegal for federal employees to strike or walk out on their jobs and that is grounds for termination. So…

    Reply

    • A Statistic—Only 2% of Urban Interface communities in the west have initiated difensiable
      space and fire resistance building materials.
      But they want Fire Fighters to save there Forest Homes.
      In this real world these homes are just part of the fuel source in a wild land fire.
      We never ran into a fire to save a stand of loggable timber we just kept building containment line. Until laws and regulations increase the probability of saving structures we should treat
      Urban interface as a part of the fuel bed and build line accordingly and that is the safe alternative.
      One more fact the Federal and State government do not get any protection fees from Wildland home owners. Suppressing every fire in the Forest dose not include protecting every forest home.
      It is up to City, County and State regulations and the Home owner to make there property fire save.

      Reply

      • I agree with that — However consider that in Yarnell the fire could have and it was absolutely imperative that it be given immediate attention and since neither the local or state fire departments that are taxpayer servants gave it the slightest attention, then in my book that type of negligence constitutes failure of duty and culpability of the destruction of half the residences in Yarnell. Now given that these people have taken on the responsibility to do their jobs properly, they are also at fault for not doing so. It is a head shaker to see such individuals who were involved in this melee later take on awards for their useless efforts even after 19 of their fellows have succumbed to their methods management.

        I do believe those men were ordered down there–no one would go otherwise. Marsh and Steed could have said no but that heat, mental state, and situation and likely fear of loss of face, job and other human factors added to their bad decision. I know this because Willis let the cat out of the bag when he said that is what they do–protect sturctures and that they could not just sit there and do nothing in the black. When someones last statement put out –Marsh –said we are ok and in the black–talk to Blue Ridge it was obvious that they did not want to do what they wound up doing after a while. It just does not ring well that Marsh really believed it was a good idea dropping off in that canyon with chance of loosing 18 lives and knowing the proximity of the fire and that the wind could change at any moment. There had to be some outside pressure and lay it to Steed as well since either could have refused any order to descend.

        This whole thing stinks and I wonder how the new deaths will be investigated considering how poorly 19 deaths in Yarnell were investigated.

        Reply

  185. **
    ** TWISP FIRE – PHOTOS TAKEN NEAR THE SITE OF THE FATALITIES

    The police have been blocking all access to “Woods Canyon Road” off of the “Twisp River Road”, where the Twisp Fire Fatalities took place on Wednesday… but yesterday several Associated Press photographers arrived in Twisp and they have been taking photos of the area, anyway.

    The deaths took place sometime around 3:00 PM on Wednesday up on “Woods Canyon Road”.

    The bodies were left in place overnight and throughout the next day while unidentified ‘fire investigators’ collected evidence and took their own photographs of the scene.

    It wasn’t until late afternoon yesterday that the 3 bodies were removed from “Woods Canyon Road” and the Associated Press photographers did a good job photo-documenting that solemn event… all the way from where the ambulances emerged from “Woods Canyon Road”, and then east on the “Twisp River Road”… and then again back along the streets of the town of Twisp itself where many firefighters lined the road and were ‘saluting’ the three ambulances as they headed north out of Twisp.

    Joshua Trujillo. one of at least 3 Associated Press photographers who was there in Twisp all day Thrusday, posted one of the most interesting photos.

    His own caption says it shows the actual ‘ground’ where the deaths took place and one lone ‘investigator’ standing on top of a ridge looking down at it.

    That photo appeared on Trujillo’s own Twitter page with the following CAPTION…

    ———————————————————-
    Joshua Trujillo ‏@joshtrujillo Aug 20
    Lone firefighter stands on ridge above site where 3 firefighters killed in #TwispFire.
    ———————————————————-

    Here is a DIRECT link to Trujillo’s photo sitting in his Twitter photo archive(s)…

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM3bxi-UAAA3TOB.jpg

    More links to other photos will be posted as ‘Replies’ to this message because of the ‘one link per post’ rule.

    Reply

    • Here is a link to the Seattle Times article that published Joshua Trujillo’s photo of what he says is the ‘site of the fatalities’…

      It is image 12 ( out of 49 ) in the ‘slideshow’ at the top of this website…

      http://www.seattlepi.com/news/us/article/3-firefighters-die-in-wildfire-after-vehicle-6454757.php#photo-8493513

      The slideshow also contains Joshua Trujillo’s poignant photos of the 3 ambulances moving through the town of Twisp as the bodies were finally removed from the site on Thursday afternoon, more than 24 hours after the incident.

      Reply

      • NOTE: The photo there on Trujillo’s actual Twitter feed showing an American Flag in the middle of a charred slope was NOT taken in Twisp and is NOT marking the spot where those 3 firefighters died on Wednesday. That photo was taken on another fire complex known as the “Chelan Complex”… not too far from Twisp.

        Reply

    • And here is another AMAZING photograph taken yesterday in Twisp by AP photographer Joshua Trujillo. It’s also sitting in his Twitter upload archive from yesterday.

      It’s a photo of the Twisp River itself taken right there near the point where “Woods Canyon Road” meets the Twisp River. It was taken just yesterday.

      ( Sonny… this one will send chills up and down your spine ).

      The Twisp River is running BLOOD RED because of all the retardant that was being dropped in/around those neighborhoods that line the Twisp River.

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM5IFnQWIAApyo2.jpg

      So much for any fish or wildlife that might have called that river their home.

      Reply

    • And another.

      This one was taken by one of the other ( of several ) AP photographers that were there all day yesterday in Twisp.

      Her name was Elaine Thompson.

      Joshua Trujillo ‘re-tweeted’ this photo of hers on his own Twitter feed and
      it has the following caption…

      ——————————————————————————–
      Elaine Thompson ‏@- Photo taken 21 hours ago in Twisp, Washington.
      Jackson Hotshots watch a motorcade carrying the bodies of firefighters
      killed a day earlier drive by. #TwispRiverFire
      ———————————————————————————

      WARNING: ‘Tearjerker alert’. This photo says it all. Look at their FACES.

      Here is a direct link to this poignant Elaine Thompson photo…

      https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CM5v7ddWwAEzRpg.jpg

      Reply

  186. Fri, Aug 21, 2015 at 9:10 AM
    Ms. Collura,
    Sorry for the delay in responding as I just received the message this morning.

    As of this morning’s inquiry to the dispatch center responsible for the Congress Fire they advised that it is 100% contained at 12.2 acres. Fire fighters had been going out daily to check the incident.

    Dolores A. Garcia
    Fire Mitigation/Education/Community Assistance
    BLM-Arizona State Office
    (602) 417-9241 office
    (602) 828-8734 cell
    [email protected]

    The States need to address and institute Laws to make property owners establish defensible space THAN WE ALSO AS PROPERTY OWNERS CAN SAY THE SAME BACK—WHY SHOULD I PAY $500 TO HAVE DEFENSIBLE SPACE DONE TO MY PROPERTY WHEN THE VERY OWN BLM AND STATE LAND DO NOT DO THEIR PART BUT IF THEY DO WE STILL PAY FOR IT—SEEMS BULLSHIT TO ME—and roads that allow large Fire equipment access and turnaround areas. I AGREE HERE AND I DO THAT—Counties need to adopted the same thing. Idaho is as bad and wont force private land owners to do any thing.WELL IT IS NOT JUST THE LAND OWNERS—
    When Fire Fighters start and have been dyeing its time to reevaluate private property protection.AS WELL AS STATE LAND AND BLM…

    Reply
    DAVID TURBYFILL says
    AUGUST 20, 2015 AT 8:07 AM

    For the last 2 years i have been ridiculled I HAVE MET MANY IN THE COMMUNITY AND NEVER ONCE HEARD ANYTHING LIKE SUCH JUST POSITIVE WHEN IT COMES TO YOU AND ALOT OF SUPPORT AND ALOT FROM MY TOWN IN CONGRESS, just a distraught emotional father,SHIT YOU HAVE EVERY RIGHT TO BE THAT— told it can’t be done,IT WILL BE DONE!!! this was not the right direction,HORSE SHIT. RISE ABOVE THE HORSE SHIT. to early to speak of, well to hell with that, My son and the rest of the GMHS have Died in vainNO THEY DID NOT…THEIR TIME WILL HAPPEN…. Its hard for me to even express how Hurt, Sad, and Fucking MadOH I CAN ONLY IMAGINE… i am this morning. I am ok with the knowlge that my son Travis is the one that must have made the fatal decision that fateful day on June 30.WITHOUT THE PROPER MISSING ELEMENTS NOONE CAN STATE THAT YOUR SON DID SUCH THAT DAVID…WHAT ID HE DISAGREED WITH THE IDEA…PEOPLE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND MISSING ELEMENTS NEED TO SPEAK UP…DO YOU SEE HOW PEOPLE LIKE DAVID HERE IS SAYING HE IS OKAY THAT TRAVIS MADE A FATAL DECISION…GIVE THIS MAN THE INFORMATION PLEASE… Travis
    I am Angry with the likes of Mike “do nothing” Dudley MIKE IS A WONDERFUL SPEAKER JUST WISH HE DID NOT DO SUCH A GREAT DISSERVICE TO THE MEN AND ALL FALLEN IS ALL, Gary Olson, YOU HAVE TO LOVE A MAN WHO HOLDS NO BARRIERS AND SPEAKS HIS MIND…you guys and getlemen like you is why these guys are dying.NO, THE BLAME IS NOT THERE. IT IS NOT TO BLAME THE GMHS OR THESE FOLKS ABOVE—IT IS ABOUT GETTING WWTKTT TO GATHER ALL OUR VISIONS AND TIE IT ALL IN TO ONE RECAP BECAUSE THE BOTTOM LINE WE ALL GRIEVE AND EXPRESS YET WE ALL JUST WANT THE TRUTH… Your ideas are well meaning and well founded, but out of touch.WELL THAN DONUT’S HILLBILLY COMMENT TO ME SOUNDS OUT OF TOUCH…
    Yes I get that a lot of folks here on IM are saying that the Families of the GMHS will have to face FACTS of how they “GMHS” Fucked up,I DO NOT SUPPORT THAT- I AM ABOUT MISSING ELEMENTS TO SPEAK UP AND MAKE AWARENESS THAT THE SAIT DID A DISSERVICE TO THE MEN AND ALL FALLEN were under trained, Not quailified, bad leaders,THAT IS NOT WHAT I HEARD FROM PEOPLE WHO KNEW THEM PROFESSIONAL AND PERSONAL…

    …..GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.

    —THAT SEEMS WAY HARSH—DID YOU SAY THAT GARY? WHO DID?

    Many individuals have SPENT more than 2 years here Trying to figure out what went wrong at YH, and I really do thank all of you. YOU ARE WELCOME…THE MEN DESERVE IT AND ALL AFFECTED BY YHF.

    But in the end at least 4, Yes 4, include Dave Ruhle, more individuals have died this fire season because, Largely WILDLAND Firefighters keep arguing for Lighter or No Shelters at all mentality. this is just Lunacy.
    PLEASE WORLD LET’S GATHER TOGETHER TO LISTEN TO DAVID HERE…IT IS IMPORTANT! VERY IMPORTANT!

    Gary Olson is a prime example of the nay sayers, and how GMHS and now another crew must have been committed to saving structures………I get it, all of the Fallen, are at Fault…..10-18 and all. Gary and other Former Wildland guys, you Have a lot of knowlege, you say that my Ideas might, and will encourage more risky behavior on the part of the FF, I don’t care unlike folks like you my ideas in place and they all are alive alive to tell the tell, Let mangament chew their ass later.
    Well when you and I worked fires all those years ago, you could and some did, work in Pajamas and it turned out OK.
    SO TAKING DAVID’S INFORMATION AND OURS WWTKTT—HOW WOULD YOU RECAP IT TO MAKE PEOPLE HERE LOCALLY UNDERSTAND…SOME FEEL A SENSE OF DIVISION AND THERE SHOULD ONLY BE SUPPORT.

    I beg of all of you to please reconsider your thoughts as it pertains to the Shelters, i have had some sucsess but I can’t do this alone any more.YOU HAVE MY SUPPORT.

    They say its a more dangerous Fire landscape in todays Drought ridden forrestsBECAUSE OF SOME WHO RUN IT NOT TO LAY BLAME JUST TO TERRAIN AND URBAN INTERFACE—

    , hence it just might be more risky, structure protection is not the primary mission of wildland firefighting operations…at least it used to be.
    I for one actually am in favor of more Head on Firefighting operations, hence might be a bight more risky. I don’t care its allready risky. I Don’t care what mistake these Firefighters are making in the field…….Just give them a better chance to survive, it doen’t have to be heavier or necessarily bulkier. ZACK ASHOOR WAS TRYING TO MAKE THE PROPER RESPIRATORY MASK BUT HE DIED SINCE…SAFER EQUIPMENT IS IMPORTANT DAVID.

    My solution, a new and better Shelter is the only answer to this……..WELL NOT THE ONLY ANSWER BUT ONE THAT IS NEEDED—BECAUSE CHARLEY MOSELEY TOLD ME THINGS ON TOPIC AND SO IN PERSON CAN SHARE ON IT…SONNY WANTS ME TO GO NOW—SO BY FOR NOW

    I want to call for a one day WALK OUT by wildland firefighter that are on the line now in the name of Fire Saftey. If structures are not the goal then this should not be a problem.I DO NOT THINK THAT IS THE RIGHT CHOICE BUT SOUNDS GOOD…

    David Turbyfill

    Reply
    B

    Reply

    • MY REPLIES BELOW:
      Bob Powers says
      AUGUST 21, 2015 AT 7:26 AM

      DAMM URBAN INTERFACE have we learned anything or do wild land Fire Fighters gust keep driving into Housing areas that can not be saved and trap Engines and crews.
      The new killer of wild land Fire Fighters is Urban Interface.
      A new development of Rules in this situation is needed with a total evaluation of how to address it.
      I FEEL LIKE THIS IS A FIRE HISTORIAN STEPHEN PYNE CONVERSATION AND YET HERE IS MY VIEW…IT STARTS AT HOME. HERE WE GO…EXAMPLE: YARNELL COMMUNITY. HERE YOU HAVE 5 OF THE 7 FIRE BOARD MEMBERS WHO LOST THEIR HOMES IN THAT FIRE AND YOU GO LOOK AT THEIR NEW HOMES & LANDSCAPE AND SEE HOW MANY ON THE FIRE BOARD THAT THEIR HOMES SHOULD BE A SHINING EXAMPLE OF DEFENSIBLE SPACE YET IT IS THE EXAMPLES TO HOW NOT TO HAVE YOUR HOME. THAN YOU HAVE A FIRE CHIEF WHO NOT ONLY DRIVES A HUMMER WITH NEW TIRES AT OUR EXPENSE EVEN AT HOURS SAY 2AM WHEN THERE IS NO FIRE OR EMT ACTIVITY DRIVING IT AROUND AND HEARSAY FROM FOLKS WHO KNOW THE GUY THAT HE LOVES TO PLAY VIDEO GAMES AND WATCH SPORTS AND AFTER A FIRE LIKE THAT IN WHERE IT TOOK 19 LIVES AND SO MANY HOMES AND LANDSCAPES AND ETC THAT IF I HAD THAT JOB WHICH BY THE WAY I HAVE SERIOUS HEALTH ISSUES AND I AM “DOING” IT AND I AM NOT THE CHIEF BUT THE DESERT WALKER AND HOUSEWIFE—BY THE WAY MY HOME WHERE I LIVE GO SEE AND YOU WILL KNOW I “KNOW” WHAT DEFENSIBLE SPACE MEANS—I HAVE THE RIGHT TO HAVE A VOICE BECAUSE I TAKE CARE OF NOT ONLY MY OWN BUT HUNDREDS IN THE COMMUNITY—I DO NOT DO ANY OF IT FOR AN ORGANIZATION OR TO GAIN A THING BUT IN HOPES TO EDUCATE PEOPLE IT BEGINS AT HOME. MY FENCED IRON GATE NEXT TO ME—DIRT LOT—THE CONGRESS FD HAS A KEY TO THAT BECAUSE SAFETY MATTERS—KEEP THE DIRT LOT WEED FREE—PLUS MY OWN—IT BEGINS AT HOME. HERE YOU HAVE A COMMUNITY THAT TELLS ME THEY HAVE TOO MUCH ON THEIR PLATE TO PULL WEEDS OR FOCUS THERE YET SPEND A DAY WITH ME WHO KEEP IN MIND IS VERY ILL HEALTH WISE AND SEE I DO NOT HAVE TO HAVE SHIT ON MY PLATE EVEN TOLD TO REST BY HEALTH CARE FOLKS AND I COULD LIVE A LIFE DOING WHATEVER THE FREAK I WANTED BUT WHAT PURPOSE DOES THAT SERVE TO DO FOR ME—WHEN I CAN DO FOR ANOTHER—I AM NOT AN ENABLER. I HAVE DONE ALL I DO FOR FREE WHERE LANDSCAPERS CHARGE AND WILDLAND AND STRUCTURAL FIREFIGHTERS CHARGE $450-750 FOR PROJECTS I HAVE DONE FOR FREE PUTTING IN THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF HOURS…I DO NOT DO IT FOR FREE TO HAVE SOMETHING TO DO BECAUSE I WOULD BE FINE AND HAPPY DO NOTHING BUT IT SOOOOOO VERY IMPORTANT TO TEACH PEOPLE THE DANGERS OF WILDLAND AND STRUCTURAL FIRES. NOW, URBAN TALK???? SHIT, SOME OF THESE HOMES HAVE BEEN AROUND FOR DECADES AND ARE NOT A PART OF THE SYSTEMIC TALK OF URBAN AND COOKIE CUTTER SUBDIVISION WAYS OF MODERN LIFE. I LEARNED ALOT FROM THIS SITE AS WELL AS THE MANY MANY MANY FIREFIGHTERS AND SMOKEJUMPERS WE HIKED AND IN THAT TO ME THE HOUSEWIFE NOT ANYTHING TIED TO THE PROFESSION OF FIREFIGHTING—I SAY BE AWARE—SEE THE RISKS—SITUATIONAL AWARENESS IS THE BEGINNING…
      YOU SEE MANY WANTED ME TO GO GET PHOTOS OF THE CURRENT CONGRESS WILDLAND FIRE AND I SEE WHERE IT IS LOCATED AND I AM NOW AWARE OF THE DANGERS AND LAID ALL RESPONSIBILITIES ON THE PROFESSIONAL FIRE COMMUNITY FIGHTING IT WHICH PEOPLE LIVE OUT THERE/PROSPECTOR LARRY TOO AND I CONTACTED PROPERTY OWNERS SO I AM GOING TO LET THE PROFESSIONALS DO WHAT THEY DO SO MANY ARE DISAPPOINTED BECAUSE I WON’T GO OUT THERE BUT I KNOW THAT AREA AND WELL,,,STORIES OF THE OLD TIMERS IS ALOT OF THE OLD MINE AREAS OUT THERE AND ALOT OF THE AREAS OUT THERE STILL HAVE DYNAMITE AND OLD MINING TOOLS FROM LOOONNNGGGG AGO. I REMEMBER A HIKE WITH SNAKEMAN AND FRANKIE AND WE CAME ACROSS OLD DYNAMITE MATERIAL AND SNAKEMAN TOMMY MAIDEN WAS A PROSPECTOR TOO FOR DECADES EXPLAINED WHY ALL THAT STUFF WAS OUT THERE…MUST OF BEEN A MINER HIDING HIS STASH FROM THE MODERN GOVERNMENT AND I THOUGHT HOW UNSAFE. I HAVE HAD NIGHTMARES ALL WEEK THAT THE WHOLE DATE CREEK MOUNTAIN CRUMBLES BECAUSE OF ALL THAT IS OUT THERE ONCE THE FIRE HITS IT SO NAH I DO NOT WANT TO BE OUT THERE BUT I DID LET THE PROFESSIONALS KNOW….LATER AFTER THE FIRE IS OVER I WILL SEE HOW MUCH OF THE YAVAPAI AND APACHE AND EARLY ARMY ARTIFACT HISTORY BURNT AWAY—HERE I LEAVE THINGS FOR FUTURE ARCHAEOLOGISTS BUT NOWADAYS THE MONEY MARKET BULLSHIT HOW THEY ALLOW THESE FIRES TO GET TOO BIG WITHOUT THE PROPER RESOURCES IN HAND FIRST AS BACKUP—THAT IS WHAT FIRES ME UP MAD—THEY CALL IN ALL THESE FIREFIGHTERS FROM ALL OVER AND DO NOT EVEN HAVE ‘THEPLAN’ IN CASE IT DOES DUE TO MOTHER NATURE GET OUT OF CONTROL…
      COPY/PASTE WHAT BLM TOLD ME TODAY WHICH DOES NOT MATCH WHAT I HAVE HEARD FROM PEOPLE HANDLING THE FIRE…SO YOU SEE IT IS ALSO IMPORTANT TO KEEP THE PUBLIC IN THE LOOP “CORRECTLY” BECAUSE YARNELL AND CONGRESS ARE MADE UP OF ALOT OF DISABLED AND RETIRED FOLKS WHO NEED AMPLE TIME TO KNOW OF AN EVACUATION NOT “GET THE HELL OUT NOW”—THAT IS DOWN RIGHT RIDICULOUS—OKAY BACK TO THIS URBAN TALK— THE BEST THING I LEARNED FROM YOU ALL IN FIRE COMMUNITY WHICH IF YOU FOLLOW IT YOU SHOULD BE A-OK NO MATTER WHAT MOTHER NATURE BRINGS—AND THAT IS THE LCES AND AND 10/18 BUT MOST IMPORTANTLY WHAT MR. TURBYFILL IS DOING AND THAT IS SAFE EQUIPMENT BECAUSE BY ALL RIGHTS IT BEGINS THERE AS WELL. WE SHOULD NOT DISREGARD HIS RECENT COMMENT AT ALL. IN FACT, I BET YOU MR. TURBYFILL IN MY HOME TOWN OF CONGRESS MANY THINK OF YOU AS A HERO FOR ALL YOUR CONTINUED EFFORTS. WE HOPE YOU ARE FOCUSED NOT SOLELY ON THE FIRE SHELTERS AND ARE ADDRESSING THE RADIOS TOO AND VEHICLES SAFETY. SO RECAP—PEOPLE AT HOME; FOCUS ON YOUR TREES AND TERRAIN— AND BLM AND STATE IF YOU WANT TO POST SERIOUS FIRE WARNING SIGNS FOR US TO ABIDE BY THAN YOU MUST AS WELL AND NOT LET A FIRE GROW WHEN IT COULD OF BEEN PUT OUT WAY EARLY…THAT FIRE AS DONUT AND US HIKERS EYEWITNESS SAW IT AND IT WAS SKUNKY BUT NOT HUGE UNTIL YOU ALL ALLOWED IT TO BE NOT TO GIVE MOTHER NATURE THE SOLE BLAME AND ALSO WITHOUT ALL THE INFORMATION—TOO MUCH MISSING ELEMENTS—NO WAY SHOULD ANY BLAME BE GIVING TO ANY OF THE 19. I CAN TELL YOU THIS— TRAVIS—I WOULD LIKE THE LOVED ONES OF TRAVIS AND ANTHONY ROSE TO SPEAK TO ME ON HOW WELL THOSE KNEW ANOTHER—TRAVIS IS VERY MUCH CONNECTED TO THE WEAVERS—AND WHAT DAVID TURBYFILL IS DOING IS NOT FOR DAVID–IT IS FOR NOT ONLY HIS SON BUT ALL FALLEN—LOOK AT JIM ROTH AND STORM KING—THIS IS NOT A LEGACY THING BUT IT IS WHAT THE HIGHER UPS SHOULD BE DOING AUTOMATICALLY NOT DAVID OR JIM—THIS IS THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE HIGHER UPS AND WE ALL SHOULD SAY “THANK YOU DAVID…ANYTHING WE CAN DO…YOU LET US KNOW”…WHEN THE FIRE HAPPENED AND THE AFTERMATH I CAN TELL YOU THERE WERE QUITE A BIT OF WRONGS DONE AND DAVID WAS SHOWN SUCH A DISRESPECT FROM THE GET GO BECAUSE OF AN ELEMENT FROM HIS PAST TRYING TO CREATE THAT PLATFORM AND TO ME THAT WAS WRONG—DAVID DESERVED EQUAL TREATMENT—I WANT YOU ALL TO KNOW DAVID AND I NEVER MET OR SPOKE OR CORRESPONDED BUT I BET DAVID CANNOT DENY HE WAS NOT SHOWN THE RESPECT HE DESERVED FOR ALL THE EVENTS AFTER THE FIRE CONCERNING HIS SON. THE LAWSUITS SHOULD INVOLVE RADIO PROBLEMS AND FIRE SHELTER TOPIC. I AGREE BOB AND GARY THAT IF YOU DID THE LCES AND 10/18 THEY WOULD OF NEVER DROPPED DOWN THERE AND HOW THEY GOT THERE COULD BE EASED BY SOME SPEAKING UP…EVER THINK THAT AS BOSSES EVEN TRAVIS AS SQUAD BOSS THAT JUST BECAUSE THEY WENT DOWN IN THE FINAL RESULT DOES NOT MEAN SAY TRAVIS AGREED OR EVEN LIKED THE IDEA WITH FAULTY RADIOS AND SUCH TO DROP DOWN…SO RESPONSIBILITY NEEDS TO BE BROUGHT UP TO THE PERSON ALIVE THAT DECIDED THE RADIOS WERE THE SOLUTION…THE WAY THE RADIOS WERE USED THAT DAY NEEDS TO BE ADDRESSED TOO. AS WELL AS THE DIRECTIONS VIA RADIO…I WOULD LOVE TO HEAR PUBLICLY AND WITH PURITY WHY DONUT BECAME THE LOOKOUT THAT 6-30-13. I FOR SURE KNOW NONE OF THE 19 WOULD WANT DONUT TO HAVE SURVIVAL GUILT AT ALL. WHAT A HELL OF A SPOT YET HOPEFULLY IN GOD’S TIME DONUT SHARES TO THE WORLD WITH PURITY THE NIGHT BEFORE, THAT MORNING AND ALL THAT LED TO HIS DAY NOT THE DAY OF OTHERS JUST HIS DAY—I AM GLAD HE IS HEALING AS SOMEONE TOLD ME—YET I HOPE IN PRIVATE HE SHARES MORE TO THE LOVED ONES—THE PERSON WHO HAD THAT BAD FEELING THAT DAY AND TRIED TO TELL OTHERS—I WANT YOU TO KNOW I AM SORRY— IT WAS NOT THEIR TIME— IT REALLY WAS NOT—WE NEED TO ALL SUPPORT DAVID TURBYFILL AND JIM ROTH IN ALL THEY ARE DOING…IT IS VERY VERY IMPORTANT….DAVID, DOES CLVD MEAN ANYTHING TO YOU?

      Reply

      • this message is posted for locals to know I let BLM know we are hearing different story on Congress fire and not only did I alert local fd about old mining stuff out there as well as Larry the prospector and inquired on written permission to hike area come a week or into Fall 2015 to see what is left of American artifact history- Jerry Sutich was right. Take the history when you see it because archaeologists don’t hike there—he is right but not my style and I never saw anyone but Saguaro National Park individual out there trying to locate my crests on my zazzle page. I thought why not just ask me and in the end I did hike the person. I do not mind hiking folks from museums and stuff like that on artifacts just not locals who take it to their yard or garage or ebay… I mean the army jacket with buttons on it still—that was a neat find…a robbery of the wagon trunk with broken lock was another find I leave up there because it time stamped my hikes and I knew noone would ever get to those remote areas and its surely neat finds. Too many neat things to list…but best of all and I regret not taking it was the Indian hatchet and only Kenny S. and Frankie S. and Tommy M and myself know where there it is or now was due to fire…that is one of my driven angles to see what’s left up there because these people say 100% contained yet burn baby burn as the sky is all hazed up misting the Aguila mountains as almost vanished by smoke…when just rain Mother Nature because I can’t rely on higher ups any longer…I got my health results back and today I got more news …the mri/cat that differ from thermogram…I wish there was a REAL physician that knows the body versus the insurance games…because I don’t do pharmaceuticals and my brother sees his neurologist tomorrow and I am sure he will show his doc my photos and labs and results because he is understanding it is his journey and wants a neurologist to explain to him the pros and cons of listening to a person like me…because I told him do not listen to me…this is MY journey and I will do as I please on MY path and he does what he wants on his…sounds like the right advice to me. I want a REAL person who is licensed for blue cross blue shield that will cut the bullshit to figure things out.

        this is their reply:

        From: “Garcia, Dolores”
        Date: Aug 24, 2015 8:49 AM
        Subject: Re: Congress Fire Status

        Containment refers to the control lines around the fire. Often when a fire is 100% contained there may be areas on the interior of the fire that will continue to burn an put up smoke with minimal threat of escaping the control lines established around the fire.

        I have forwarded your concern to the Phoenix District BLM Fire Management officer so that it can be relayed to our firefighters working in the area.

        Dolores A. Garcia
        Fire Mitigation/Education/Community Assistance
        BLM-Arizona State Office
        (602) 417-9241 office
        (602) 828-8734 cell
        [email protected]

        Reply

    • GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.

      —THAT SEEMS WAY HARSH—DID YOU SAY THAT GARY? WHO DID?

      Mr. Turbyfill is the only who has written or said those words that I know about.

      Reply

  187. **
    ** DETAILS EMERGING ABOUT TWISP FIRE FATALITIES

    US Forestry Chief Cook and Bottle Washer Tod Tidwell was ‘on the ground’ there near Twisp, Washington, today and announcing that US Forestry will be NOT be conducting a ‘Special Accident Investigation’ of the Twisp fatality incident but will, instead, be ‘test-flying’ their shiny-new CRP ( Coordinated Response Protocol ) with regards to investigating the Twisp Incident. He says the CRP has an approach that is (quote) “more sensitive to the victims and their families” than the previous SAIT approach and made no bones about the fact that there will ONLY be what is now called a “Learning Review” and no such thing as the previous ( required ) “Factual Management Report”.

    Q13 FOX News
    What went wrong? U.S. Forest Service to open investigation into death of 3 firefighters
    Posted 7:39 PM, August 20, 2015, by Q13 FOX News Staff, Updated at 08:25pm, August 20, 2015
    http://q13fox.com/2015/08/20/what-went-wrong-u-s-forest-service-to-open-probe-into-death-of-3-firefighters/

    Contains a VIDEO of US Forestry Chief Tom Tidwell doing a press conference near the
    site of the three US Forestry employee deaths.near Twisp.

    Tidwall made a public statement, but took not one single question from reporters.

    —————————————————————-
    CHELAN, Wash. — How did U.S. Forest Service firefighters become trapped and overcome by flames from the wildfire near Twisp?

    Three were killed and four other firefighters were injured in the same incident Wednesday.

    The Forest Service has called in a national Incident Management Team to investigate the deaths of the firefighters.

    U.S. Forest Service Chief Tom Tidwell told reporters Thursday that a team of Forest Service experts, working with the Washington Department of Natural Resources, would review what went wrong and what circumstances led to the firefighters’ deaths.

    Late Wednesday night, the Forest Service put out a news release that said, “The firefighters were engaged in initial attack operations and were involved in a vehicle accident when it is believed that the fire overtook the vehicle.”

    But no details have been disclosed about how the vehicle accident occurred, what position the men were in or how three of them were unable to escape the flames.

    Tidwell said he did not know how long the investigation would take, but added that any new details of what led to the tragedy will be released publicly only after the relatives of the fallen firefighters are told first.
    —————————————————————-

    But despite getting their early and ( as usual ) trying to “control the story”… local residents of the Methow Valley area and Social Media have already “kicked in” and a lot more details about what happened are already out.

    First and foremost… this incident was NOT off in the ‘boondock’.

    It took place on a road called “Woods Canyon Road” which branches off of “Twisp River Road” only about 5 miles due west of the town of Twisp.

    “Woods Canyon Road” is, essentially, a RESIDENTIAL neighborhood and not ‘boondock’.

    It is actually the equivalent of “Miner’s Camp Road” in Peeples Valley back near Yarnell, Arizona.

    Not a ‘main drag’… but an improved gravel road with some significant houses all along it.

    This engine crew based in Methow Valley was sent UP this road AFTER the evacuations were ordered for the “Woods Canyon Road” and “Twisp River Road” areas… and there is already NO QUESTION these Wildland Firefighters were sent up “Woods Canyon Road” with the intention of protecting the HOUSES that were on that road.

    There are now pictures emerging ( taken today ) of Sheriff’s deputy’s “guarding” the entrance of “Woods Canyon Road” there where it meets “Twisp River Road” and not letting any reporters get near where US Forestry FFs are already combing the road.

    And in the “you can’t make this stuff up” irony category…

    “Woods Canyon Road” is just a short 29.7 miles due south of the site of the Thirtymile fire
    memorial to the 4 FFs who lost their lives up there in THAT canyon 14 years ago on July 10, 2001.

    Both the Thirtymile file Memorial and the town of Twisp are in the SAME COUNTY.

    Okanogan County, Washington.

    The Thirtymile file incident took place inside the Okanogan National Forest in the state of Washington.

    The engine involved in the accident and burnover was from the ‘Methow Valley’ which is actually just north of Twisp and in-between the town of Winthrop, WA, and the site of the Thirtymile fire incident.

    ALL of the FFs who just died are LOCAL, and basically “grew up” in the ‘shadow’ of the Thirtymile fire fatality incident itself.

    And if that wasn’t enough ( in the irony department )…

    Exactly in-between those short 29.7 miles between the Thirtymile fire fatality site and this new Twisp fataility site ( and about 15 miles due east ) is a mountain that bears the following name…

    Granite Mountain.

    I kid you not.

    See next post for some excerpts from some locals who were capturing radio traffic and who first reported the fire breaking out on “Woods Canyon Road”… and then later reporting radio traffic about the developing entrapment and that firefighters were reporting being ‘trapped’ and hunkering down in someone’s DRIVEWAY and calling for help…

    Reply

    • ** METHOW VALLEY BLOG WAS FOLLOWING RADIO TRAFFIC IN REAL TIME

      There is a site online called the “Methow Valley Blog” and it was being updated in real time during the tragic Twisp incident by people who could HEAR the radio traffic that was taking place ( and apparently have their own recordings/transcripts of it ).

      Apparently… either the firefighters who died or the ones who were injured ended up taking refuge in some house’s DRIVEWAY and were calling for HELP.. and there WAS some attempt on the part of an Air Tanker to help them.

      Methow Valley Blog
      http://www.methowvalley.com/bb/punbb/viewtopic.php?id=46805

      Here are just some of the excerpts from what people were reporting hearing over the radio in REAL TIME as the incident was unfolding…

      ——————————————————————————————
      CLOSING ELBOW COLUEE ( NEAR WOODS CANYON ROAD ) AT TWISP RIVER ROAD. GOING TO JUMP THAT SECTION
      Like · Reply · 1 · 20 mins · Edited

      FIRE MOVING EAST NORTH EAST DIRECTION OVER ELBOW COULEE.
      Like · Reply · 19 mins

      ONE ELDERLY MAN REFUSING TO LEAVE
      Like · Reply · 19 mins

      EVERYONE LEAVE TWISP RIVER AND ELBOW COULEE AND PINE FOREST DEVELOPMENT. MUILITPLE FIRE FIGHTERS ENTRAPMENT, WOODS CANYON AND ELBOW COULEE
      Like · Reply · 1 · 16 mins · Edited

      HAVING MEDSTAR ON STANDBY
      Like · Reply · 5 · 13 mins

      FIRE FIGHTERS HUNKERING DOWN IN A DRIVEWAY RIGHT NOW WAITING FOR HELP
      Like · Reply · 2 · 11 mins

      MULIPLE HOUSES BURNING
      Like · Reply · 8 mins

      CAN’T SEE THEM THROUGH THE SMOKE
      Like · Reply · 1 · 6 mins

      DOZERS AND CREWS HEADING ASAP THEIR WAY
      Like · Reply · 1 · 5 mins

      AIR TANKER GOING TO BE COMING IN HOT!
      Like · Reply · 5 · 5 mins
      ——————————————————————————————

      Reply

      • And here are the entries from the FIRST page of that BLOG where the fire threatening “Woods Canyon Road” was first being reported at 12:40 PM.

        It is then reported that DNR ( Department of Natural Resources ) crews were ‘on their way’ to take care of it and ( apparently ) a specific attempt to protect something at the exact address of 37 Woods Canyon Road.

        —————————————————————————–
        snoogit Yesterday 12:40 PM

        I just got word from someone driving down Twisp River Road that there is a small fire on the hillside heading up toward Woods Canyon Rd. It has been called in. Wouldn’t be a bad idea to let folks know that live in the area.

        Quote
        2 leahk Yesterday 12:45 PM

        Thank you for posting. I was just coming to the bulletin board to ask if anyone knew what was up. God be with them.

        Quote
        3 RedRonda Yesterday 1:09 PM

        37 Woods Canyon Rd. DNR on the way, have called for air support.
        Per Melody Long on the FB feed.
        Some discussion over the air of road closures.

        Ronda
        ———————————————————————————

        Reply

        • Followup…

          I’m still checking this out… but it appears as if ‘snoogit’, ‘leahk’ and ‘RedRonda’ may have actually been Firefighters using that ‘Methow Valley Blog’ site to actually communicate with each other that day.

          You see terms like “I was just coming to the Bulletin Board” and “have called for Air Support”, etc.

          It sounds like whoever these ‘bloggers’ were… they weren’t just ‘civilians’.
          They seemed to have access to information ( and radio traffic ) and were sharing it that just ‘regular people’ would not have had.

          Reply

    • ** LOCATION OF “WOODS CANYON ROAD”… 5 MILES WEST OF TWISP

      For those who remember the trick of just ‘cutting and pasting’ a decimal longitude and latitude value into the input bar of ‘Google Maps’… here is the exact location of the point where the residential “Woods Canyon Road” meets “Twisp River Road” and the point where the Sheriff’s Deputies were blocking access today…

      48.380735, -120.242572

      Just “Cut-and-Paste” the complete line above ( including the comma ) into the ‘Search’ field of ‘Google Maps’ and a red balloon will appear at that exact location. Switch to ‘Satellite’ mode and ZOOM down and you will see that it was basically a residential neighborhood and not any real ‘boondock’.

      It’s not even a very long road. A little ‘winding’ but doesn’t even go very far. The more expensive homes are at the end of “Woods Canyon Road”.

      Reply

      • DAMM URBAN INTERFACE have we learned anything or do wild land Fire Fighters gust keep driving into Housing areas that can not be saved and trap Engines and crews.
        No Anchor points just a mas of fire into houses and jumping from point to point you cant fight that with out difensiable space.
        Tight roads with small turn around’s traps trucks when they have to back out its worse we will have to wait and see what happened but it sounds like the same story over and over.
        Evacuate residences and get the hell out of the way that fire burned 60,000 Acers in 24 Hours That’s a big dog eating in any book.

        The new killer of wild land Fire Fighters is Urban Interface.
        A new development of Rules in this situation is needed with a total evaluation of how to address it.

        The States need to address and institute Laws to make property owners establish defensible space and roads that allow large Fire equipment access and turnaround areas. Counties need to adopted the same thing. Idaho is as bad and wont force private land owners to do any thing.
        When Fire Fighters start and have been dyeing its time to reevaluate private property protection.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post…

          Agree. It’s way past time to look at POLICY decisions that appear to be killing Wildland firefighters.

          If the details that appear to have emerged already regarding the Twisp fatalities are true… then this was just a ‘put together’ crew consisting of some FEDERAL WFFs who work an Engine normally assigned to the Okanogan National Forest ( where the four Thirtymile Fire fatalities took place ) combined with a fee Washington State DNR ( Department of Natural Resources ) guys sent up “Woods Canyon Road” with the specific assignment of trying to protect HOUSES and a neighborhood that had ALREADY been EVACUATED.

          They were being asked to risk their lives for piles of lumber, drywall and shingles easily replaced by purchases from Home Depot.

          And if the Judges interpreting law in Washington are anything like one Judge Richard Game in Arizona… it may well be that they did not have even one single ago.if molecule of either duty or legal responsibility to even be doing what they seemed to have been trying to do as they lost their lives. ( Just like GM in Yarnell ).

          Reply

          • Sorry about all the typos in last message. Sitting in another airport doing the “wall crawl” thing again on a modern “dumbphone”

            Judge in Arizona who has already ruled that AZF never has even one single atomic molecule of duty or legal responsibility to ever even attempt to protect citizens or structures was Judge “Richard Gama”… not “Richard Game”.

            Reply

            • I am still seeing NOTHING about any Shelter deployment.
              Just Burn Over. Should be hearing more on this soon. Normally they would have said by now if any of them Deployed.

              Reply

              • As it turns out… Washington is one of those states that has its OWN “Occupational Safety and Health Administration” (OSHA) agency… just like Arizona.

                But in Washington State it is called “LIDOSH” because it’s part of the State’s “Labor and Industry” department.

                Regardless of the NAME… same situation as in Arizona.

                These Twisp workplace fatalities and serious injuries were required by LAW to be reported immediately to LIDOSH by the ’employer’ of the victims.

                Arizona Forestry did, in fact, comply with that equivalent law in Arizona just hours after the Yarnell tragedy. Records show the ‘incident’ being properly reported to ADOSH just a few hours after the GM bodies were found.

                But I can find no evidence (yet) that anyone in Washington State is following the law and has notified LIDOSH about the Twisp workplace fatalities and injuries.

                And I’m talking about the official codified legal notification process here. It’s not good enough for anyone to say “It’s all over the news so they must know about it”.

                The legal notification from the employer is what automatically ” starts the ball rolling” at OSHA and automatically allows them to open a case file and start their own workplace safety investigation… as the law requires them to do.

                Reply

      • Followup…

        Here is just one ( of many ) MSM links mentioned above running the photo(s) taken yesterday of police officers “guarding” the entrance to “Woods Canyon Road”, just west of the town of Twisp, where the most recent WFF tragedy took place.

        This article ALSO has a photo of a fire official with a clipboard ( described as an ‘investigator’ ) walking a burned slope off of ” Woods Canyon Road” and taking notes.

        http://m.nydailynews.com/news/national/washington-firefighters-killed-twisp-wildfire-identified-article-1.2332550

        Reply

        • Well no difensiable space there and spot fires looks like the crew there pulled out in time’

          What the hell could they do there any way that is really stupid they could have got cut off with the spot fires.

          As an old fire fighter I am getting really pissed.

          What the fuck are these kids doing???????????????????

          Reply

          • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 21, 2015 at 3:54 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Well no difensiable space there and spot fires
            >> looks like the crew there pulled out in time’

            Looks like it was TWO crews… not just ONE.
            ONE made it out safely. The others died.

            ** TWO VEHICLES / TWO CREWS

            Associated Press story that just appeared in the Idaho Statesman today, Friday, August 21, 2015…

            Looks like Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers is not ‘playing ball’ with Tom Tidwell and the US Forestry Service in the “don’t talk about the Twisp incident to the press” game.

            Sheriff Rogers was just re-interviewed by the Associated Press and every time he is interviewed he seems to release even MORE details about the deaths of the 3 firefighters in Twisp.

            Now he ( Sheriff Rogers ) reports there were TWO crews ( and TWO vehicles ) sent up that “Woods Canyon Road” to protect the residences there. ONE of the vehicles/crews made it out… but the other one ( and the four men who were inexpicably left to try and make it out on foot ) didn’t.

            The Idaho Statesman
            Article Title: Washington tragedy highlights firefighters’ youth, passion
            By MATT VOLZ and BRIAN SKOLOFF of the Associated Press
            Published: August 21, 2015
            http://www.idahostatesman.com/2015/08/21/3948156/i-wish-it-was-me-families-mourn.html?

            From the article…
            —————————————————–
            The complex of fires grew more than 100 square miles in a single day, creating a situation too chaotic to even track how many homes had burned.

            “We have lost them, but I don’t know how many,” Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said. “We’ve got no idea.”

            The three firefighters who died were based in Okanogan-Wenatchee National Forest, said forest spokeswoman Carrie McCausland.

            They belonged to specialized crews that immediately assess fire scenes and report back to commanders.

            The crews ( plural ) were in the canyon in two vehicles and on foot when the flames raced toward them.

            One vehicle made it out safely, but the other carrying the three firefighters who were killed crashed.

            The four firefighters who were injured were among those who fled on foot, Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said.
            —————————————————–

            Reply

            • The best I can tell it is not an FS Engine
              Red lettering on the door could be severial things from Cal Fire to a local city fire truck. FS are Normally Green with white letters .Don’t know if the Engines have gone to white with green lettering yet.
              many of the newer FS trucks are white now. But no red lettering.

              Reply

  188. For the last 2 years i have been ridiculled, just a distraught emotional father, told it can’t be done, this was not the right direction, to early to speak of, well to hell with that, My son and the rest of the GMHS have Died in vain. Its hard for me to even express how Hurt, Sad, and Fucking Mad i am this morning. I am ok with the knowlge that my son Travis is the one that must have made the fatal decision that fateful day on June 30. Travis
    I am Angry with the likes of Mike “do nothing” Dudley, Gary Olson, you guys and getlemen like you is why these guys are dying. Your ideas are well meaning and well founded, but out of touch.
    Yes I get that a lot of folks here on IM are saying that the Families of the GMHS will have to face FACTS of how they “GMHS” Fucked up, were under trained, Not quailified, bad leaders, …..GOT WHAT THEY DESERVED.
    Many individuals have SPENT more than 2 years here Trying to figure out what went wrong at YH, and I really do thank all of you. But in the end at least 4, Yes 4, include Dave Ruhle, more individuals have died this fire season because, Largely WILDLAND Firefighters keep arguing for Lighter or No Shelters at all mentality. this is just Lunacy.

    Gary Olson is a prime example of the nay sayers, and how GMHS and now another crew must have been committed to saving structures………I get it, all of the Fallen, are at Fault…..10-18 and all. Gary and other Former Wildland guys, you Have a lot of knowlege, you say that my Ideas might, and will encourage more risky behavior on the part of the FF, I don’t care unlike folks like you my ideas in place and they all are alive alive to tell the tell, Let mangament chew their ass later.
    Well when you and I worked fires all those years ago, you could and some did, work in Pajamas and it turned out OK.

    I beg of all of you to please reconsider your thoughts as it pertains to the Shelters, i have had some sucsess but I can’t do this alone any more.

    They say its a more dangerous Fire landscape in todays Drought ridden forrests, hence it just might be more risky, structure protection is not the primary mission of wildland firefighting operations…at least it used to be.
    I for one actually am in favor of more Head on Firefighting operations, hence might be a bight more risky. I don’t care its allready risky. I Don’t care what mistake these Firefighters are making in the field…….Just give them a better chance to survive, it doen’t have to be heavier or necessarily bulkier.

    My solution, a new and better Shelter is the only answer to this……..

    I want to call for a one day WALK OUT by wildland firefighter that are on the line now in the name of Fire Saftey. If structures are not the goal then this should not be a problem.

    David Turbyfill

    Reply

    • Dave to some extent I do agree with you.
      Back in 1973 On the R5 Safety First committee
      FIRE IMPROVEMENT REGIONAL SAFETY TEAM—–One of our recommendations was to make and improve the fire shelter it took over 20 years to do that and it only added a 150 btu’s a little over 600 BTU protection. I noticed that the FS is testing and looking at NASA Materials

      My concern when you look at what was in the lungs and fluids of your son Breathing becomes the big issue and another added oxygen tank with a possibly heaver shelter to the already 40 LBS..
      Maybe just maybe those can be addressed. But Training is also key why are FF losing touch with the Basic 10 and 18?

      I have never said they got what they deserved—–Following the rules has kept thousands from ever deploying.

      I fall back again on Canada they have had great success by eliminating Shelters and emphasizing Safety.

      I started the FS with out Fire retardant clothes or Shelters. In 1966 Fire shelters were introduced. Our training consisted of reading the directions and watching a Movie. In the movie we were instructed on the Shelter deployment and watched a guy get in it next to a slash pile and talk over the Radio while the pile burned not very realistic. That was the extent of the training. The Shelters cost to much to practice with be cause of tight Fire Funding but it was Mandatory we carried them. The standing with most back then was they were potato bakers. Do not ever put yourself in a place you have to use one —worked well for many years.

      I don’t believe as you say us old Fire Dogs are out of touch with todays Fire Fighters we have stayed in touch thru many different sources. one is the FS Retirees association that has a committee yearly dedicated to recommending update and changes in the Fire Fighter community.

      Reliance on a fire shelter puts you one step closer to being in a burn over— that’s still my take on making a fail safe peace of equipment. That I do not believe will ever be built.at least not for a long time that will fit the criteria we want..
      Trading SAFETY Practices for an attitude we can do any thing and survive——————

      Reply

    • Mr. Turbyfill,

      I don’t know what to say since I am at a loss for words to tell you and everyone else how bad I feel for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and those who loved them.

      If however, there is anything I can ever do for you in terms of establishing whether or not your son Travis and the others were adequately trained by the Prescott Fire Department on how, where and when to properly deploy the fire shelters they did have with them, I hope you will contact me. I still think that is an important part of this story that has not been properly investigated.

      May God bless you and find a way to help you ease your pain.

      Reply

    • My condolences on your son. he two years younger than my son Ted when he passed’–Travis definitely is a hero is without any fault whatsoever concerning the bad decisions of that day.. In fact he strongly resisted the decisions that were made.. My own feeling is that the only reason he went down was hopes of saving the other less experienced from the bad decisions that had been made and enforced from those above him. The errors made here were not his nor agreeable to him.

      Mr. Turbyfill–It is commendable that you are working on the shelter problem. It appears that any improvement would save lives in various situations. Dr. Putnam says they do work in certain situations, so apparently it is knowing where and when the present shelters would be effective. . Because of the extreme temperatures generated in that manzanita they must require a large perimeter to work. It does not seem the forest service or the fire fighting profession has any knowledge of how much clear ground is needed for those things to work in such areas. I wonder if you had any information on that and how those things are tested. That would be useful for firefighters to know. Do they use actual surroundings or is it just a torch test?

      I did hike one Zack Ashoor up to the route those men took that day. He broke rules and went to the fence and he was adamant to me that he was going to go there to pay respects in despite any restriction. He said he broke down and cried the instant he had gotten the news. He told me he would stand before any judge for his actions–he knew many of them personally and had been working on a better oxygen supply that would be light enough to carry in fire fighting situations. He was on the Arizona State Respiratory Board and on his walk he had to use a small oxygen bottle. He told me he had asthma–sadly he has since passed at the young age of 29. Another commendable person for working to improve situations for the fire fighter.

      Thanks for coming on this site for those of us less informed–We appreciate your expertise and input.

      Reply

  189. Looks like the ones involved in the accident/burn over were a mixed group of Department of Natural resources and the Forest Service.
    Have to see if this was a Thrown together IA group, that happens when so many resources are stretched. Did it start on DNR land? Wash News said the Injured were DNR Employees, a DNR contractor and a FS Employee Still sketchy on who was involved in the accident? will have to get sorted out.

    Reply

    • Yes lots of details to sort. It is natural to view new incidents through built-in predispositions, but vehicular accidents happen and don’t necessarily implicate PPE or, say, government funding or other broader issues.

      Reply

      • SR says

        August 20, 2015 at 7:47 am
        Yes lots of details to sort. It is natural to view new incidents through built-in predispositions, but vehicular accidents happen and don’t necessarily implicate PPE or, say, government funding or other broader issues.

        Sorry but I feel that you are mistaken about your statment, or I am takeing it not as intended.
        You bring in a point that I feel that bears out some discusion. “vehicular accidents happen”

        Yes they do, and engineering and new thinking prevail… here is a short list

        Seat Belts
        Non metal dashes
        Airbags
        Tire pressure Sensors and monitoring
        side impact door structure
        Roll-over stability control systems
        steering wheel driving aids, to keep drivers attention on the wheel
        voice coomands
        Highway safety sytems to numerous to list here

        #### It is natural to view new incidents through built-in predispositions###
        I am taking this as mostly directed to me, and maybe not, either way

        I want all of you to look foward to the future not “how we used” to do it” . Some of you just don’t have the materials expertise to know that there is another way, So let us that do…DO. please lean forward and help to that end

        Turby

        Reply

  190. Oh my God, with great saddness, my heart is Crushed and am short of breath. I’m sure that some of you know by now. Three Wildland Firefighters lost their lives today inTWISP, Wash. — An excerpt from an article at Q13 Fox at 5:58 p.m., August 19:——Three firefighters were killed and three to four others were injured Wednesday while battling the Twisp River Fire near the town of Twisp, Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said.
    The sheriff said the wind suddenly shifted and the firefighters became trapped as the fire was turned back on them.

    Rogers said they are not yet releasing the names of the firefighters’ agencies because relatives may not have been notified yet.—–

    We Have lost and Given so much, why do we keep saying it can’t be done. The solutions are within reach.

    David Turbyfill

    Reply

    • Looks like there are at least FOUR survivors this time to say how it happened.

      From the Associated Press… just 1 hour ago…

      Yahoo News
      Article Title: 3 firefighters killed in Washington state wildfire
      Published: By TED S. WARREN and GENE JOHNSON of the Associated Press
      http://news.yahoo.com/sheriff-3-firefighters-killed-washington-state-wildfire-005836275.html

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————————–
      TWISP, Wash. (AP) — Three firefighters were killed and three to four others were injured, at least one critically, as raging wildfires advanced on towns in north-central Washington on Wednesday, authorities said.

      Okanogan County Sheriff Frank Rogers said the deaths, in a wildfire near Twisp, had been confirmed, but he said he was not immediately releasing specific details about the circumstances or the victims, pending notification of their families.

      “It was a hellstorm up here,” he told KXLY-TV of Spokane. “The fire was racing and the winds were blowing in every direction and then it would shift. … It was tough on ’em up here.”

      One firefighter had been taken to Harborview Medical Center in Seattle in critical condition, a nursing supervisor there said.

      The news came after officials urged people in the popular outdoor-recreation centers of Twisp and Wintrop, in the scenic Methow River valley about 115 miles northeast of Seattle, to evacuate as a fire near Twisp grew to about 2 square miles.

      The Okanogan County Emergency Management department issued the order for the towns, which combined have a population of about 1,300.

      Angela Seydel, a spokeswoman for Okanogan Emergency Management, said Wednesday evening that 4,000 homes in the region had been evacuated.

      “It is really bad out there. The fires have just exploded,” she said. “We’re just directing everybody to head south.”

      A stream of cars poured south out of Twisp as dark smoke clouds loomed; the highway to the north was closed.
      ————————————————————————————–

      Eerie similarities?

      – “The news came after officials urged people to evacuate”
      – “A fire near Twisp grew to about 2 square miles.”
      – “The fire was racing and the winds were blowing in every direction and then it would shift.”
      – “It is really bad out there. The fires have just exploded,”
      – “We’re just directing everybody to head south.”
      – “A stream of cars poured south out of Twisp as dark smoke clouds loomed;”

      In other words… once again… it looks like the deaths happened AFTER an evacuation was ordered and everyone was supposed to be just “getting safe” to “watch the big dog eat”.

      Obviously no word yet whether there was any attempt to DEPLOY ( fire shelters ), and no word yet whether any of them were FEDERAL employees.

      All it takes is ONE to have been a FEDERAL employee and that will AUTOMATICALLY kick in an independent investigation by the USDA Department of Justice ( DOJ ) office, regardless of what any ‘Forestry Agency’ tries to do.

      I sure hope I don’t have to put the following line in a macro key so I don’t
      have to keep typing this…

      “May they Rest In Peace”

      Reply

      • Okay… scratch one mystery.

        The three that died WERE, in fact, US Forestry employees.

        So there WILL ( automatically ) be an independent DOJ investigation, as required by FEDERAL law.

        It’s also starting to sound like there was no actual DEPLOYMENT.
        Starting to sound like a vehicle accident with flames overtaking vehicle.

        KREM – Breaking News
        Article Title: Twisp Fire Kills 3 US Forest Service Firefighters
        http://www.krem.com/story/news/local/wildfire/2015/08/19/50-acre-fire-evacuates-town–twisp/32021205/

        ——————————————————————
        Around 5:30 p.m., Rogers later confirmed that three firefighters had died.

        By 6:30 p.m., the coroner was on scene according to Rogers who said the three firefighters were engaged in the initial attack.

        Brian Schaeffer with the Spokane Fire Department later confirmed that the firefighters were with the U.S. Forest Service.

        The firefighters were engaged in initial attack operations and were involved in a vehicle accident when it is believed that the fire overtook the vehicle according to officials .
        ——————————————————————

        Reply

      • FYI – The only law I am aware that requires an investigation that will include Special Agents from the USDA Office of Inspector General (or Specai Agent i.e., law enforcement) if there were USFS employees killed. That would not include employees of the BLM, BIA or Fish and Wildlife Service who all work for the USDI.

        The U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) is an entirely different animal all together and includes such agencies as the FBI, DEA, BATF, and U.S. Marshalls Service etc.

        And I am going to go WAY out on a limb and predict we will learn these firefighters worked for a fire department that had a culture and a mission to fight structural fires in an urban or wildland urban interface environment. Not that it can’t happen to federal land management wildland fire fighters just like it did on the Esperanza Fire. But even if I am wrong about the department or agency they worked for, I will also predict that we will learn they died trying to protect structures.

        Reply

          • We found a long time ago most FF injuries and burn overs occur during IA
            The First shift. Have Engine accident in the worst place in fuel and erratic winds would be a worse place scenario if that is what happened.
            Lets wait for more details as information can be haphazard at this early date. My Hart is very heavy and Sade for the loss.

            Reply

          • And yes… you are right and I was wrong.

            It is the OIG division of the USDA that is required by Federal Law to conduct their own independent investigation of ANY Wildland firefighter death(s)… not the DOJ.

            I still don’t like that it a division of USDA ( Parent company of USFS ) that is required to do these investigations.

            I wish it WAS some ‘other’ agency that does NOT have offices in the same building as USFS… like the DOJ or the NTSB.

            Reply

            • Whoops. Forgot to identify who I was reponding to. I usually do but this time I forgot.

              My “You were right and I was wrong… it’s the OIG” comment was a reply to what Gary said up above.

              Reply

    • Yes Mr. Turbyfill, I am aware of the deaths of the firefighters in Washington and I am following it as closely as I can, partly because I live in Washington now, and partly because I have friends fighting those fires in addition to my personal interest in wildland firefighting safety.

      I am waiting with great interest to learn everything I can about what kind of department or agency these firefighters worked for, i.e., were they employed by a land management agency that has had a traditional focus on protecting natural resources in the backcountry or did they work for a department that has a culture and a mission of primarily protecting structures in an urban or wildland urban interface environment?

      I am also very interested in finding out what their assignment or objective was at the time they were entrapped, were they in a location that was above or in front of the wildfire, what type of unit or crew they were assigned to, e.g., a hand crew or an engine crew? What type of adjoining resources and command structure did they have supporting them? What kind of weather related event caused the fire to reverse direction and entrap them (the initial reports indicate there was a sudden wind shift and the fire reversed course, but that was also widely reported after the GMIHC entrapment and we ultimately learned that was not true). These are just some examples of the questions that I want to know the answers to without turning this comment into a long dissertation.

      I think it is way too early for anyone to suggest these firefighters could have been saved by better (probably heavier and bulkier) fire shelters that may encourage wildland firefighters to take more risk and would in my opinion, ultimately lead to unintended consequences and even more wildland firefighter fatalities and serious injuries occurring with a greater frequency.

      In any case, like your heart, mine has been broken tonight and the sadness I feel is almost overwhelming…once again.

      Reply

      • Gary… see two links above.

        Definitely looking like US Forestry Service employees… and starting to look like some kind of vehicle accident involved.

        Reply

          • Well…below is an excerpt form my book that explains what wildland firefighters (especially young firefighters) experience when fighting wildfires and for anyone who ever experienced what your body goes through with an adrenaline dump, you alrady understand why poor driving and forgetting to put on seat belts can happen very easily.

            My subconscious knew that whichever choice I made, my body would require extra supplies of oxygen and blood to my muscles. As the natural stimulant adrenaline rushed into my bloodstream, it affected my autonomous nervous system, my breathing rate increased, my heart rate increased, my blood pressure went up, I began to secrete sweat and saliva, the muscles of my iris’ contracted to allow my pupils to expand so I could see better, my blood sugar level increased as my blood flow was redistributed away from my skin and inner organs in preparation for the ensuing action. As a result, I experienced a loss of fine motor skills, tunnel vision and auditory exclusion which has a negative affect on people’s ability to make sound decisions.

            Reply

  191. I have been asked by email to clarify what I meant by saying, “I have always been a direct action kind of guy. Blogging into the Ethernet is not really my thing, I would rather go out and hunt something down and kill it. But I can’t do that in this case, I don’t have standing.”

    And what I meant by this comment is that I have always wanted to investigate the Yarnell Hill Fire and I wished I all along that I would have been retained by at least one of the families of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew to do so. And if not me, another investigator. Not a bunch of know nothing attorneys. FYI…does any responsible governmental body in the world investigate crimes against their citizens that way…no.

    The INVESTIGATION which conducted by competent INVESTIGATORS comes first, and then they turn their findings over to attorneys and the investigators work with those attorneys to fit the results of their investigation in the little boxes and arcane language the legal system has developed to perpetuate itself. And then those same attorneys explain the findings of the investigators in an arcane language to the referee who speaks the same language and happens to wear a black robe and sits on a dais to command respect and then that person, who we call a judge and those same attorneys then translate the findings of the investigators back into our common language the investigators wrote their findings in an INVESTIGATIVE REPORT in the first place to a group of common people we call a jury. That is how it is done.

    Guess what families of the dead GMIHC? Garbage in…garbage out. You put your confidence in a group of predators who respond when you chum the water. You got what you paid for…with a contingency fee, which was nothing.

    So back to my comment. It was a takeoff on the old cartoon that had two buzzards sitting on a branch and one said to the other, “Patience my ass, let’s go hunt something down and kill it”, or something like that. I was just lamenting the fact that I have been waiting for two years for someone to tell me the truth when the entire time I have been chomping at the bit to go out and find the truth. I don’t kill animals, I can’t kill animals. In fact, I am a vegetarian except I eat beef, some poultry, and a little fish, but I pay others to do my killin’, guttin’, and cleanin’ for me. So I don’t have a problem with hunting, except that most of it is not very sporting.

    But…I do have some really good news for you. The fire gods have sent me a great gift and I am going to share it with you. Several people who don’t want to so publicly communicate questions or comments to me and sometimes I rephrase those comments or questions and post them as mine so people will think I am more thoughtful and smarter than I really am. In addition, sometime back I asked the question, with our present system of random comments, rabbit trails and independent tracks of thinking, how are we ever going to know when we reach our goal or get to the end of this process? And now, the fire gods have answered my question. I think Bob or somebody may have even written at the time that we will know the end when we see it, or something like that. Well, I know the end when I see it…and here it is. This is so important I didn’t even ask the author if I could post it because…I learned a long time ago to never ask a question I didn’t want to know the answer to, so I just did it. Your welcome.

    “You know how I sometimes say that words fail me. Well, this isn’t one of those times.

    I have no explanation why this all just happened like this, the way it did. However, it would be really nice if you could forward this email to Mr. Powers for me, if that’s possible. I’ve never had the opportunity to correspond with him, although there have been several times I wish I could have. For some reason I’d like him to at least see what I believe could very well be a long-term reader’s closing thoughts on this matter.

    ONE READER’S THOUGHTS

    Yesterday, I happened to be searching through many of the previous IM chapters regarding the ongoing YHF discussion in order to locate a certain cross-fade video which WTKTT did (one that I thought I knew where to find but I didn’t). I got somewhat involved in re-reading several of these earlier chapters, and I had something happen along the way which I was not expecting.

    I hope to “not” turn this into a novel by attempting to convey what I experienced, but here goes.

    I have long been baffled ever since the account given by the FBAN’s on the thread wherein they detailed (after they had studied all photos and data on the YHF) what the conditions were that the GM crew had to have been experiencing once they dropped down off the ridge and headed towards the BSR. How the fire had to have started raining ashes on them, yet the crew continued to bushwhack their way forward. That the crew had to have experienced a hot wind blowing into their faces, a wind that kept becoming ever hotter with every blast. Yet, they didn’t stop or turn back. That by the time they were about half-way down, the sky and the smoke overhead had to have had a luminous orange tint to it, and glowing embers had to be starting to fall on them. And yet, they kept going forward.

    The many posts I reviewed yesterday often contained comments that I recalled being made, the ones saying how it defied logic, defied common sense, defied training, and defied the basic tenets of WFF rules. In many other posts, I came across familiar expressions like “It was crazy” or “lunacy” or “insane” which were used to describe not just this one event, but also the subsequent revelations about GM that have been unsettling to a degree that is difficult to describe.

    While re-reading these older posts, I recalled how Gary Olson recently covered the totality of the circumstances which were present when the order to descend into the death chute occurred. Again, there are no words more appropriate to describe such an order than those of “lunacy, crazy or insane.”

    And this is where the something happened. I suddenly realized that what has been there consistently all along was a truth that I had been simply dancing around … by means of recognizing what was “crazy” and calling it that in my own words, but not really taking it seriously as such. Perhaps that was because I was regarding it as just a tentative assessment, that surely in the search for the truth there would eventually be something come to light that would help explain what was so monumentally irrational.

    However, nothing of the sort has ever happened.

    Now, I cannot just dance around it any more. I now believe that there was an insanity on the Prescott FD. I don’t know where it originated, but I believe that it came to be a shared madness that extended to the GMIHC. I strongly suspect it came to be that way for the reason that the insanity somehow was accorded a sort of forgive-ability, which became acceptability, and over time that became “normal.” (Particularly for those persons on the crew who had full-time status.) And, had this HS crew been in the Federal system with all its institutional checks, this situation would not have happened.

    There would not have been Prescott FD’s brand of lunacy in choosing an individual of “very limited IHC experience” to be the Superintendent of an IHC while much more qualified WFF’s with much more experience applied for that same position (according to RTS). (Side note here: And just where has journalism been — Hello Arizona Republic and Prescott Daily Courier, et al — is there some reason you never wished to investigate this aspect? Afraid of hurting somebody’s feelings? Afraid of uncovering something more serious, like an actual event that most certainly should have disqualified Marsh from ever being considered for a Superintendent position?)

    The number of times I danced around the insanity of the Prescott FD are almost too many to count. Like when Donut’s supervisor (who had a bird’s eye view up on that mountain) didn’t arrange to have his Lookout moved to safety as the fire was fast approaching the Lookout’s trigger point. Donut had to call his Supervisor. And then the Supervisor told Donut how he KNEW about that, that he could SEE that the fire was coming at him, and for Donut to “do what you gotta do.” That was it. (Do what you gotta do, GOODBYE. See ya. Have a nice day.)

    I consider it surprising now that this same Supervisor managed to even raise any objections to Marsh when he was instructed to bring the crew down into a box canyon. I’m surprised now that Steed didn’t just answer, “Yeah, sure, if we run into trouble, we’ll just do what we gotta do.” But perhaps he didn’t do that because this time the risk to safety and welfare involved his own neck as well — unlike all those times when he willfully and intentionally inflicted a ‘drop to your knees and vomit’ on all those subordinates under his supervision.

    I was still dancing around it when I learned that Donut verbalized the madness to the SAIT investigator by telling him that the crew didn’t need to pay any attention to the hillbilly safety rules, that they (the crew) were smarter than that. Here he was talking to a fire investigator who had a lifetime in the firefighting world, and Donut was completely unabashed in saying these things to him. Because the insanity on the Prescott FD just went on and on.

    The wonder is that GMIHC went as long as they did before a badly mismanaged fire exposed the true nature of this particular crew and what the consequences could be for them.

    Insanity killed the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

    It is the Prescott Fire Department who has blood on their hands.

    It is those individuals behind the Certification process that considered it acceptable to put a hotshot crew on a small town “risk a lot, save a lot” municipal fire department who have blood on their hands.

    Roy Hall and the State of Arizona could not have possibly known that they were getting a crew that did not meet the Type 1 specifications per the contract. Or that GM’s reputation for being “extremely physically fit, highly motivated, hard working and damn good line builders” did a really good job of masking some profoundly serious deficiencies. So, no … the State does not have blood on their hands, but they are the owners of the Mother of All Mismanaged Fires. One that tragically elevated an individual from the Prescott FD’s Opera of the Mad to Division A status, someone who possessed (among other things) a dangerous mix of “a less-than-thorough knowledge of fire” with “a disdain for safety” — and then turned over to him his own HS crew as his resource. And the rest is history.

    I realize that there are still those who wish to pursue every detail of every moment of the YHF, and will not rest until they hear the testimonies of the lone survivor and all the others still sitting silent under gag orders. But those few final pieces which may someday fill in the mosaic I am viewing right now will only be the finishing touches to a portrait of insanity.”

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 16, 2015 at 11:38 am

      Thank you, Gary.

      In my mind… there’s not much else to say in response to that well written set of “human factors” observations other than…

      I agree.

      That’s the hard road to go when entering the “human factors” realm to see what can be learned and ( more importantly ), learn what the ‘warning signs’ are for the future.

      You have to take it ALL in and put ‘labels’ on it, at some point.

      The ‘big picture’ DOES matter, in the ‘human factors’ realm.

      Sorry I haven’t been chiming in but it’s a long, sordid story involving a lot of airplanes and being places I’d rather not be. I have been FOLLOWING all the postings, but just not in the best position to respond lately.

      But as long as we’re back looking at this ‘soup’ of ‘human factors’ that led to the demise of 19 people… I think you left at least 2 things out of the mix.

      The ‘religion’ bend… and the ‘attention’ bend.

      I think BOTH of those things still have to be ‘factored’ in to ‘the insanity’ that ( somehow ) became ‘the normal’ in “Everybody’s Home Town”.

      Somewhere in-between Pukie-The-Clown and baptisms happening DURING firefights and guys reporting back to their pastors in Prescott on their ‘conversion successes’… the ‘human factors’ at play here get even stranger.

      And then there’s the “Home Town Heroes” thing to top it all off.

      I’m not sure you saw the following comment that appeared at the bottom of Mr. John Dougherty’s article following his hard work and efforts to actually obtain some of the ‘pleadings’ involved with the Grant McKee ‘wrongful death’ suit.

      It’s just one more piece of the puzzle in the “human factors” story…

      InvestigativeMEDIA
      Grant McKee pleadings posted
      Posted: July 27, 2015 By John Dougherty ( 10 Comments )
      http://www.investigativemedia.com/grant-mckee-pleadings-posted/

      At the bottom of the ‘comments’ section for this IM article…
      ——————————————————————————-
      On July 29, 2015 at 3:56 pm, ‘A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry’ said…

      In the beginning of his Hot Shot career Grant ( McKee ) had plans to continue with his EMT training. All that changed when the Hot Shots received a standing ovation from the citizens on a recent fire he told his mom before the Yarnell fire. He also told her he wanted to become a structural firefighter.
      ——————————————————————————-

      A “standing ovation”.

      Classic TPOAAR ( The Power Of Applause And Recognition )

      The ‘recent fire’ that appears to be being referred to is, of course, the Doce fire.

      The Granite Mountain Hotshots DIED just one week after they got that ‘standing ovation’.

      I still think THAT has to be “factored in”… right on top of the ongoing concerns and paranoia coming from Darrell Willis and down to Eric Marsh about Willis believing the City Council was actively plotting behind their backs and they needed as much “good news” as could be mustered in order to ‘combat’ them.

      Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 16, 2015 at 11:38 am

      Thank you, Gary.

      In my mind… there’s not much else to say in response to that well written set of “human factors” observations other than…

      I agree.

      That’s the hard road to go when entering the “human factors” realm to see what can be learned and ( more importantly ), learn what the ‘warning signs’ are for the future.

      You have to take it ALL in and put ‘labels’ on it, at some point.

      The ‘big picture’ DOES matter, in the ‘human factors’ realm.

      Sorry I haven’t been chiming in but it’s a long, sordid story involving a lot of airplanes and being places I’d rather not be. I have been FOLLOWING all the postings, but just not in the best position to respond lately.

      But as long as we’re back looking at this ‘soup’ of ‘human factors’ that led to the demise of 19 people… I think you left at least 2 things out of the mix.

      The ‘religion’ bend… and the ‘attention’ bend.

      I think BOTH of those things still have to be ‘factored’ in to ‘the insanity’ that ( somehow ) became ‘the normal’ in “Everybody’s Home Town”.

      Somewhere in-between Pukie-The-Clown and baptisms happening DURING firefights and guys reporting back to their pastors in Prescott on their ‘conversion successes’… the ‘human factors’ at play here get even stranger.

      And then there’s the “Home Town Heroes” thing to top it all off.

      I’m not sure you saw the following comment that appeared at the bottom of Mr. John Dougherty’s article following his hard work and efforts to actually obtain some of the ‘pleadings’ involved with the Grant McKee ‘wrongful death’ suit.

      It’s just one more piece of the puzzle in the “human factors” story…

      InvestigativeMEDIA
      Grant McKee pleadings posted
      Posted: July 27, 2015 By John Dougherty ( 10 Comments )
      http://www.investigativemedia.com/grant-mckee-pleadings-posted/

      At the bottom of the ‘comments’ section for this IM article…
      ——————————————————————————-
      On July 29, 2015 at 3:56 pm, ‘A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry’ said…

      In the beginning of his Hot Shot career Grant ( McKee ) had plans to continue with his EMT training. All that changed when the Hot Shots received a standing ovation from the citizens on a recent fire he told his mom before the Yarnell fire. He also told her he wanted to become a structural firefighter.
      ——————————————————————————-

      A “standing ovation”.

      Classic TPOAAR ( The Power Of Applause And Recognition )

      The ‘recent fire’ that appears to be being referred to is, of course, the Doce fire.

      The Granite Mountain Hotshots DIED just one week after they got that ‘standing ovation’.

      I still think THAT has to be “factored in”… right on top of the ongoing concerns and paranoia coming from Darrell Willis and down to Eric Marsh about Willis believing the City Council was actively plotting behind their backs and they needed as much “good news” as could be mustered in order to ‘combat’ them.

      Reply

      • I am glad something didn’t happen to you. And no, I didn’t see the comment pointing to the TPOAAR, but yes, you are right, I’m sure that was a powerful factor and definitely fits into my favorite area, the human factors. I have tried along with everyone to “explain the inexplicable:, which was a phrase I used a few times way back at the beginning, but I have been unsuccessful.

        So…when I got “One Readers Thoughts”, I just decided this is better than anything I or anyone else has been able to come up with so far, so I decided to roll with it and share it. I think you did a good job of summarizing ORT.

        They talk about how hard it is for logical people to explain or accept illogical thoughts and actions which extends to sane people trying to explain and accept insanity…so I guess maybe that has been our problem all along.

        Reply

        • Oh…and one more thing. One of readers who communicates with me by email has brought up the religion factor several times and he has some very interesting ideas on that subject that are frankly, very disturbing and so complex and…deep, that I have not even been able to process what he is saying very well, but I think he is really onto something.

          The problem is, what he is onto is going to take somebody a lot smarter than I am to process it, but I believe he and you are right…the religion factor was there and it was a very powerful force within the GMIHC. Scary.

          Reply

          • I can’t discount the religious factor. Seems that once people get entrenched into the group thinking of religion they get sky struck. After all, their gods won’t lead them wrong–right? Well seems the GMHS gods did not work out too well. The statement “That was Gods plan for them that day” sounds to be a puny excuse for poor training and bad judgment.

            Now that does not mean I am discounting spiritual things–my God, if he is among those gods that be, gave me enough sense not to go down in that basin that day, or put another way I had lived the brush country and pine forests out of doors long enough to recognize the danger of fire in such areas–and it did not take a rocket scientist that day to see that fire was ballistic and know that even the jumbo jet loads of retardant would have a problem resisting it.

            On the plus side I have learned a lot more from men like Gary Olsen, Bob Powers, and Dr. Ted Putnam to know that the retardant often has little effect and can’t be counted on much of the time to do the job it is hoped to do. These fellows have paid their dues from years on the fire line and you can count on their expertise–especially if you want your fire crew to stay alive.

            I have also learned that retardant stuff is a lung tissue robber, although we can donate one lung and still hop along pretty well, provided that other lung is in decent operating condition. It destroys fish and other aquatic creatures as well, but plants do well off the contents. After all the thousands of fish and other aquatic life killed by accidental spills into rivers or nearby water sources are seldom noticed. Maybe there is some solace in the fact that this stuff is pure fertilizer and plants do well with it. It probably can be used as explosive, though you would need to dry it and use dynamite to get it to go off. I know that because I have used it in mining even back when you could buy a sack of fertilizer and add a gallon of diesel to pack drill holes with. A half stick of dynamite per hole was enough to set it off. In general mining it comes in the form of what we called prill, little beads that were generally pink in color and about the size of small bb’s. You would use an air compressor and blow gun to suck it out of five gallon buckets to fill the drill hole. Once I kept filling a hole and after a few buckets I realized I had been filling a crack back near the end of the hole. Well that stuff is cheap so I added a few buckets to make sure that round pulled well enough. It did and blew out about 50 yards of timber as well. So maybe that stuff could blow out fires if you could get it to explode above a fire. I have heard it that some have experimented on that very idea.

            But let us talk of the religious factor. That is in order since people get the idea that their gods and angels are going to lead you here or there. Well there are some strange happenings. Did you see the photo of the 19 above my shoulder when Joy and I went up on the mountain on Christmas night? Joy is always coming up with ideas to honor those men and rightly so. The intentions of those men was never wrong, just the training and understanding of the situation was wrong as well as the leadership. When I was a young miner there were lots of things I had to learn off my Dad to keep me alive underground. I was in some of his rat holes starting at age nine. But he knew the ropes well enough to keep us alive underground–knew bad ground, when to bar down and safe ways to handle dynamite caps–he had all his fingers, something a number of miners loose handling those to harshly. Dynamite itself is relatively safe unless crystalized, then you have pure unstable nitroglycerine that could explode just by dropping a stick of dynamite.

            More dangerous to some miners is to have a woman underground. Its called bad luck–now that goes to religion again. I have worked once over the years with a woman underground and indeed it was bad luck. She couldn’t lift the rolls of chain link wire onto the ore cars so us miners were having to take our time away from the face to do what she was physically incapable of doing. She did not last too long so the bad luck went away soon enough.

            But I get the point. Religion is personal and should be kept at home, at least in general America.

            Reply

            • Right on Sonny as far as the religion goes, our founding fathers had it right, believe whatever you want to believe but don’t try to make me believe like you do. Don’t even put pressure or expectations, especially on the job to make me want to want what you want.

              Right on as far as women go to Sonny. I’m pickin’ up what you’re puttin’ down. WOMEN…can’t live with them, cant live without them!

              Reply

    • The idea that this thing reverts back to the Prescott Fire Department hiring procedures and the GMHS crews disdain for safety procedures makes sense. What does not make sense is that anyone with half a brain would challenge a wildfire that 500 men could not have slowed. Seeing that wild fire made me understand what wild land firefighters mean when they say “let the big dog eat”.

      Donut was a joke as far as representing the fire fighting profession. Those fellows who have been on the line for years have made it obvious he knew little about firefighting and how to stay alive. Even that old hill billy, Rick Mckinsey knew better than to get himself caught down in that manzanita maize. He had warned that crew that early morning in Peeples Valley to not get caught down in that brush.

      What is sickening is the fact that those who were supposed to be informed were not and at least two bosses led their troops into a no win situation. When there is no cause to risk your team’s life then do not. And in this situation there was no cause for Sonny to go down there seeing the big dog eat near enough. However if I had chosen to go down alone then it would be my own idiot way that killed me. But had I enticed my hiking partner to follow me knowing that it was a dangerous plan, then what would my legacy be?

      The question in my mind after reading your statements would be do you think they even understood the danger of going where they went? Ignorance seems to be in order for a major part of their actions. And perhaps that explains why those men were led to their demise.

      Reply

      • Sonny said “The question in my mind after reading your statements would be do you think they even understood the danger of going where they went?”

        I guess Sonny’s question is for me? If so, yes, I think they fully understood the danger (speaking of Marsh, Steed, the Squad Bosses and Senior Crewmen) but I now believe the crew’s arrogance and hubris, complete disregard and disrespect for the rules and safety protocols, in addition to their immersion in the Prescott FD culture of “risk a lot save a lot” and the Prescott’s FD Opera of The Mad (one of my new most favorite descriptive phrases) made them believe they could beat the train.

        That is one of my earlier analogy’s that I compare what they did to, when a group of thrill seekers or crazy people or whatever see a speeding train and try to beat it by crossing in front of it…that goes on everyday somewhere in this country and the people usually make it, but when they don’t, it’s on the news. GMIHC were a lot of things, but I don’t think they were STUPID, I think they knew they were in a death chute choked with brush and they were above and in front of a firestorm of Biblical Proportions (another one of my favorite descriptions).

        Reply

        • AMEN you hit the Nail on the Head.
          I have said that before they tried to beat the train and knew exactly what they were doing they lost the race.

          Reply

        • I am curious that you haven’t (I infer) yet heard of prior footraces with fires.

          This was such a large bet (the whole crew) that I believe this wasn’t their first time racing fires in a literal sense. Likewise Steed’s reaction to his lookout facing a possible burnover was so blasé it seems they’d likely left other crewmembers in Egypt here and there.

          Those who’d left the crew over the prior few years might still be able to shed light on this.

          Reply

          • Yes, I believe that information is out there. I can’t remember now how long you have been with us on our little experiment in social media but I know you have been here for some time. Anyway, way back when (whenever that was) there was a person participating here who went by the handle of RTS. And RTS seemed to have a lot of inside information relating to the very thing you are asking about and he called it “prior bad decisions with good outcomes.”

            There was some controversy over the accuracy of RTS’s posts, but I for one believe them because he seems to be tightly connected to the ground level wildland firefighting community. And as far as former members of the GMIHC, who I believe at least some of them are following this thread, there are a lot of them who have a lot of information regarding that subject I am quite sure.

            I have repeatedly asked here on this thread for their help in identifying those instances to help us fill in some of the very big important blanks that now exist in our picture. My requests however, have been to no avail since those people who have that information appear to be hunkered down behind the big red wall or cone of silence or the circled wagons around Station Number 7, or however you want to say it. The fucking CIA can’t keep secrets like these people can, so…we may or may not ever hear about what they know regarding your question.

            Reply

            • Let me go back to an example we turned up earlier which did not get a lot of discussion.
              The Fire on the Salmon NF that Marsh refused to put in direct line on.
              My Knowledge of the Salmon fires in the Salmon Drainage and Salmon NF. Long ago the Salmon NF Learned that Hand Line Indirect could not hold Fires in this Steep and rugged country and They quit going indirect with Hand Line. Other natural Line like Rivers and Roads were used as indirect to fire out from and an occasional Tractor line but those were few and far between.

              Thus R4 Teams on the Salmon, Payette, and Challis National Forests as well as others with steep river drainages did very little indirect hand line.

              So when Marsh refused to work with that direction he and crew were sent home. The Division Supervisor offered an alternative that Marsh would not work with which was falling Snags ahead of the Crew near the line so the crew could follow up with hand line.

              As far as we know the crew did not lose the indirect line they put in
              thus a bad decision with a good out come though they got sent home for failing to follow the direct line orders. I am sure they were told why they had to build direct line. The Fires on the Salmon have a nasty and frequent escape the line even direct and crews build line with one foot in the burn and their SZ is back into the burn.

              If your Indirect line is compromised your Escape route may be cut off (Your retreat back up your Line to the Black) .
              While Marshes excuse of fear of falling trees sounds good there are many ways to mitigate that problem. All the other crews were doing just that.

              All I am saying here is it is an example not necessarily the best but one that I would recognize knowing the Salmon breaks country.
              Again this is a classic LCES scenario.

              When on the Oak Grove Hot Shots we had 2 Sawyers with a swamper each and I scouted the snags to be fallen ahead of the crew. When we were in timber country we were lucky the crew had two highly qualified Fallers that were our sawyers and I had for years been a red carded Falling boss from my Time on the Sequoia.
              Yes we built a lot of direct line in timber and had to deal with snags in the burned area. Timber fires can crown out in side the burn and jump hand line wind is a primary factor The Safety zones 90% of the time were back into the burn.

              Building Indirect line in timber will jump up and bite you in the ass
              and Marsh should have known that. The Team and Div. SUP on the Salmon did. thus direct line only.

              Reply

        • Gary that is a great analogy–challenging the train but perhaps not perceiving that it isn’t a freight but a 200mph passanger from the French quarter. Joy and her friend did get caught on the track with a train coming but I will let her tell that other than the old truck she was in stalled on the track and her door was jammed shut so she barely got out. The Mexican guy driving might have been kin to Chuy Garza. Chuy had a 22 bullet hole scar in his cheek. He had spun a 22 revolver playing Russian Roulette and had lost. I think he got by with one lost tooth and a bloody cheek. It is another example of the human factor. People do some of the craziest things and I have too, but spinning a revolver and poking it to my face or dropping off in a canyon toward a wild fire as fierce as that Yarnell fire ain’t one of them. I have seen too many times what a bullet can do to a body and what one looks like after being roasted. I also have a huge scar from a leg graft caused by a previous Las Cruces fire chief putting a jug of gasoline on a wood stove. I was four at the time. Now a days you don’t see glass jugs though plastic is bad enough.

          Yep I think you are correct–do or die and no consideration for those you lead.

          Reply

    • Gary and Bob were agreeing that in all this confusion, destruction and death of young firemen it is about as hopeless as finding a needle in a hay stack that the fire fighting gods will effect changes in safety procedure, hiring procedure and finding the truth of why those men died and what and who were responsible for the deaths. Two dead men that cannot talk for themselves are shouldering all the blame and perhaps they should, but still why should their deaths be taken so lightly. Why the gags and why didn’t the SAIR people find out all the facts for t;hose in the families who want to know? Smooth sailing and a no blame policy does not speak to the truth and if it were not for WTKTT, Bob, Gary, Marty, Joyl, JD, et. al., there would have been little attempt at goading those investigators that have fallen down on their duty to get every detail of what happened. Closure for the loved ones sometimes takes years, but in this case should have been already there.

      Judges have not helped either and maybe people in Blue Ridge and others that were on the fire ought to come forward and publicly reveal what they know. The hero Donut does not, and too many are scared to death as to what might become of their jobs and lives if they do tell all. You would almost think you were seeing a seen in the Mafia–blood on the street if you blow the whistle. Not much is said of the Sheriff Department–What do they know? Is there anything that should be hidden knowing that people have that right to know every detail related to the deaths of 19 young fire fighters. Does the Sheriff need the FBI to help him sort all this out? Sometimes outside help is the way to go when there are obvious cover ups to the actual events that went down that day. Too much is at stake here when 19 lives are considered along with all a multitude of loved ones and concerned people who do after all seek the truth of what really went down.

      Now on the lighter side, we stopped in at the Congress store on our way to Aguila. There is a 12 or so acre fire north of Congress in the mountains. The paper says the Wickenburg fire department is working the fire. No mention of either the Yarnell or Congress fire departments who are right next the fire. Wickenburg is some 20 miles on down the line from the fire. Is this another one where Wickenburg works the fire because they get double pay while Congress and Yarnell stands down? Remember, I was informed by a good source that the Yarnell fire department worked Peeples Valley while Peeples Valley worked Yarnell during the Yarnell fire because they can make more money working out of their districts eventhough they should be where they are most familiar and reliable. I hope someone checks that out to see if gouging the public funds is the norm.

      Reply

  192. Nineteen heroes die. You gloss over it. You narrate what you please with the SAIR…Bob, is correct on rules being broken but to configure that to the end result WITHOUT hearing and KNOWING all the missing elements—it is a true disservice to the 19 and ALL fallen and their loved ones. I am angry that a judge not a jury dismissed the cases..these loved ones and all affected by the fire deserve their time in court to work through properly assessing the YHF and finding out more clarity that would only happen in a court by jury…this judge did a travesty of justice. I had to listen to 2 people from Yarnell who lost their home and a Peeples Valley resident who watched it say “poor firefighter community gets the heat for what mother nature did.” Really. If I did not know sensitive material that belongs to the person to say it versus third party/hearsay because of what it is than maybe I can understand the mother nature theory. Until the proper people open up I do think it is beyond sad and hard for me to move forward because powers to be can just do what the “cheese and cracker” they want probably knowing EVEN MORE details than I know…yet if we did what they did—we would of been hung or shot. I still think of my journey with Sonny and how one Apache County employee treated him…it seems as time goes by people treat people as labels or misperceptions for their own agenda and angle versus what it is…

    Sonny says this is HOW the system works …he said once the cronies get control they will write the narrative to the benefit of the in-players. In common terms they call this politics.

    I call it WRONG. I call it dishonest. Bob Powers, you are 100% on the rules as well as your take but where is WWTKTT to chime in and tie what Gary says and you Bob and Sonny and me and make it one complimentary explanation as WWTKTT can do—because we are on the same team—we are all here to find the truth—

    Now for the last chapter of Gary’s book on the hikers—we gave the SAIT an interview with as well printing up what we said and it did not make the final report on the SAIR and it caused confusion when Dickman’s book came out and I have been doing FOIAs since the book came out—and my next step they said August 6 2015 10:56am has to be aimed directly at AZ Division of Forestry because they do not fall under the US Forest Service. That was from Joe (Joseph Starry) of USDA USFS. So my question to you Gary do you want the original SAIT interview that we did that IS NOT a part of that SAIR or do you want to make your own questions? You see nothing changed than what we originally reported and yet the yellow and white helicopter questions asked of us never made it to SAIR interview public records and other information. Now, remember Sonny’s account compliments my account yet we have much different perceptions like Sonny’s take on that ridge—yes he said we had to get the hell out of there yet I have my account and perception of why I was staying longer yet he loves to tell people I was going to drop down where the men dropped down and the time of the day I wanted to go cattle pond way would of been plenty of time versus dropping down 12-16 ft boulders into freaking dense thickets of manzanita with my health and the heat of that day and all the hikes we already did that week but he carries in his whole being he gave me the right way to go—I strongly believe it may of been the right way for the men at the time they were at that point but at the time I stood there I felt my way would of got me to vehicle safely. TIMING is key factor in details of those final hours. I smile and say yes Sonny saved my life yet no one to this date not even Dr Ted Putnam or fire historian Stephen Pyne has sunk into my thick headed mind that Sonny truly saved my life because I was there from 12:38pm
    -1:11pm when Sonny came back for me…so you will hear Sonny speak than me and do what you want with it…but the interview should be left alone as unedited and raw versus what the disservice the SAIT did to us all—

    Reply

    • I am not sure Joy what Missing elements you speak of.
      If you read all of what I said they are the Facts to this point.
      There is enough information to state that the crew violated Some of the 10 Standard orders.
      Marsh could not have been a look out and allowed the crew to continue to walk to their deaths,
      If even one of the 18 was ignored much less 3 or more they should have never moved based on
      severial of the 10 Standard orders. That in its self says what I said below.
      The only thing missing is a statement by McDonough that the Argument took place.
      We have two statements that it did, One from Dudley and one from the Prescott City Lawyer
      While his is second hand from Willis it is still Evidence of the Argument.
      I have other confirming info that Some of Blue Ridge has been Talking to fellow Fire Fighters and the Info has spread by the Fire net work confirming the Argument Proof no Evidence yes

      While the Boulders are an interesting discussion it didn’t happen they deployed and they died for severial reasons none of which included any orders from any one but Marsh.

      Rules Broken many time end in Fatalities that’s the simple truth The rules were created and identify each rule with a Fire Fatality or Fatalities that’s how they were put in place and why they should be followed.

      The missing elements will not change what The supervisors of Granit Mountain Ignored that is as plain as day to Fire Fighters past and current.

      Joy you are a great person but you are a civilian what you have learned about Fire Fighting you have learned here what I learned was over a 33 year wild land fire Fighter.
      I can give you the information but can you understand it all. Putting the pieces together takes understanding along with information not always all of the Facts.
      My self Gary and Others understand the information and the puzzle involved.
      I hope you listen even if you do not agree I am not crucifying any one What happened was a bad decision on Marshes part as well as Steed. that is the simple truth and that can not be changed.

      for severial reasons.

      Reply

    • Joy – If the truth is that Sonny did not save you why would you say otherwise? If the truth is that you did not want to go down the exact same path that everyone things that Granit Mtn went down why would you say otherwise?

      Reply

  193. Although there is a question as to the time they had to decide whether to head to the boulders or clear out and deploy at point, it behooves one to go to that spot in a few years when the brush is back to approximate that day and time yourself both to the north and to the south to see time involved in traversing that type terrain. That can be lifesaving knowledge for future fire fighters

    Reply

    • And not just ‘time’ it at some slightly ‘hurried’ pace.

      Get people to use as the ‘contestants’ who are fully capable of convincing themselves that their very lives depend on the results of this ‘timing test’.

      It won’t bring anyone back… but it just *might* be good information to add to all the other tests that have been done over the years trying to determine ‘ascent rates’ under various conditions.

      It still astounds me that even minus the vegetation… this kind of ‘testing’ was NOT performed as part of the official taxpayer-funded ‘investigations’.

      Reply

    • Well give me one of those fire blankets and I will purposely stay close to the boulders if I am trying to outflank a fire. But that is my civilian thinking and even more so after I saw how useless those blankets were in that manzanita fire.

      Reply

  194. I first Believe as Gary that retreat to the Rocks would have been a order for the whole crew not scatter and run. Having said that back to some facts to consider.
    Drop Packs and Tools and run do you understand what that means in todays Hot shot crews and even other Crews. The Fire Fighter Carries his survival in his 40 pound bag. We carried it on our waist.
    Back to the early 90’s our canteens and Fire shelter were on our waist belts to days Fire Fighter carries the Shelter and Water First aid kit and every thing in their pack. To drop packs and run means abandoning your ability to survive. Other than Chainsaws leaving your tools removes the ability to scrape away a area to deploy in. I never trained my crews to drop tools and run. We trained as a unit and we moved as a unit and again that has served hot shots well over the past 60 years.
    So back to the Question of the Boulders I have no problem with finding refuge in them nor do most Fire Fighters. so I refer back to what happened in that canyon and how close the Boulder were.
    I have no doubt had they been 10 yards from them they would have used them.
    So here goes my next thought. On the Rattle snake Fire my dad and 14 Fire fighters tried in the same type of brush to out run a fire down hill. My step dad told me the fire was on top of the ridge 100 yards from them when they were told to turn and run 30 MPH down canyon wind the entire 15 made 100 to 150 Ft in 10 minuets before they were over run.
    Some of you are saying and estimating GM had time to run to the Rocks There is no running in that type of brush you say 70 yards 210 ft. just to get to the rocks no tools no packs I am still believing they did not have the time to make the rocks. When the saw the fire in the mouth of the canyon they were at or very close to the open area they attempted to clear I feel the fire head was close the fire had toped the ridge above them and the had maybe 5 Min. to clear and deploy no time to run I have seen to many fire in that type of burning condition chew up a lot of ground in that kind of fuel. Add wind of 20 MPH plus and a up canyon run they would have never mad the rocks they had no area big enough to deploy but they had no other choice. The Fire dictated what they did at that point. They looked to the east and the fire was in front of them. They looked to the North and the fire was cresting the Hill above the rocks they looked back to the west and the Fire was in the Saddle they had dropped off of. They looked to the south and the Rock pile was 70 to 90 Yards away thru the same brush they had fought all the way off the hill they were trapped with very little time.
    I ask all of you if Marsh was a Lookout with his experience would he have let the crew get that far committed knowing how fast that fuel can burn????? He never saw what the fire was doing the Last 25 Min. before they were trapped had he or any on else the crew would not have been where they were.
    Again I will repeat I have no problem with taking refuge in the Rocks or Boulders I do not believe they would have made it spend 5 min. clearing an area or 5 Min. Running with no ability to protect your self Shelter or run? People have survived in Shelters people have not survived Running you can find either and also stories both ways.
    They chose the shelter the fire was just to hot to much wind and to much fuel and they did not get their packs away from them that had Gas in them Way above normal heat in the situation but how do you calculate that And how do you calculate how much reliance they had on the Shelters I think they relied to heavily on them and that did not help with the Decision Making.
    As an old fire fighter those are my thoughts . Based on what information we have at this time.

    Reply

    • Well…I will be perfectly honest with you. What does that mean? Does that mean I have not been honest with you up until this point? I am going to have to go with what Bob and others say on the deployment. Most of you have studied the terrain and the situation a lot more than I have. It also sounds like Joy and Sonny agree with Bob about the crews chances of getting out of there as well. Apparently the GMIHC did something so reckless and irresponsible they were only left with one choice…die.

      So…here comes my honesty. I don’t really have any interest in proving the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots made the wrong decision on the Yarnell Hill Fire regarding deployment versus running. I was primarily interested in finding a reason to help the families cope with the disastrous decision the crew made and mitigate the legacy of the GMIHC at the same time, but it doesn’t look like history is going to give them even that much.

      I had hoped my argument would help the families find someone else to blame for the deaths of their loved ones by assigning some responsibility to the system (NWCG) and the City of Prescott for the deaths of the crew due to their insufficient training. That was my own version of a Hail Mary Pass that apparently sailed over the receiver’s head into Never Never Land and Beyond. So be it. It is all on the crew.

      And I say the crew, because although there were many on the crew who were blameless that day, there were many who were not. Back in my day, almost all of the administrative attention (full time employment, benefits, training, etc.) given to hotshot crews was given to the crew bosses and very little trickled down to the squad bosses or senior crewmen, partly because there was so little in the first place.That has changed in recent decades, so now squad bosses and senior crewman have more skin in the game. With those changes comes more responsibility. In my day, it would all have been on me.

      At least Eric gets to share the single greatest and most deadly mistake in the history (excluding the Idaho Fires of 1910, which don’t count for lots of reasons I won’t go into again) of wildland firefighting in general and hotshot crews specifically with Jesse Steed, his squad bosses and to some extent even his senior crewmen. All of them had a duty and responsibility that day to say, “Hey man…you know I love you, but you are out of your fucking (whoops broke another vow) mind if you think I’m going down there.” Please refer to WTKTT’s composite video to really understand what “down there” means.

      Well…I guess I am finally ready to start writing the last chapter of my book, Betrayed By Our Fire Gods (you know where to download Chapter One). I am going to ask Joy and Sonny to write the specific details of their day on June 30, 2013, because I would like to tell it from their perspective since they witnessed wildland firefighting history being made in a very, very, very bad way on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      I think I will name the last chapter of my book, “Betrayed By Our Fire Gods…Again.”

      Reply

      • Gary
        I understand yours and many others attempt to find a different person or some other thing to blame.
        The truth lies in the Fire Fighting rules and out comes.
        I could have blamed the FMO for leaving the road above the crew to check on the Back Fire. I could have blamed no Radio with the crew but look back and remember reality there were few personal Portables at that time.
        I could have thrown the whole blame on the Arsonist.
        But I learned the real things about Fire Fighting when I became a Wild Land Fire Fighter the rules written and un written in the end you are responsible for you and your crews no one can take that away no one can order you to do what is not right
        your decisions are the place where the buck stops good ones and bad ones.
        We all hope based on Training, Experience, knowledge we make all the right decisions. When Steed did not want to leave the Black he knew what the problem was and why He should have stood his ground he had all the right cards to win the game and he folded.
        I can tell you this with out saying its Hind site. I would never have left the black.
        But if I did when I got to the Saddle I would have refused to go down in that Canyon If I wanted to get off the mountain I would have dropped off the back side into the desert and lead the crew to the Highway that was the safe way out at that time.
        There was not a man alive in my 33 years that could have talked me into taking a crew or crews into that brush filled canyon. For any reason on gods green earth.
        With an active fire that close.
        Any one that says they would do what GM did best turn in their gear and quit now or they will become the next statistic.
        I have found out recently thru my contacts the word is out eternally that Marsh did not follow the rules the BLM and FS knows exactly what happened and there are no new rules for a reason this was caused by not following the 10 and 18 there is nothing here that’s new there are no new rules to add. They are already changing type 1 and 2 certifications at the National level the States will have to follow suit. to ensure qualified teams.

        I found out recently that thru the pipe line the BLM and FS have the information on the Argument between Marsh and Steed it just has not been released publically and I doubt either agency will release it. As close as we came to getting it was Dudleys Statement.

        I never wanted to upset the Families but the Truth is there even if it hurts I know I have been there and felt the Pain the Betrayal the Blame and the final truth.

        My Father made the mistakes as did many others since 1953 including GM
        The Rattle Snake Fire was the largest FF Fatality Fire (15) from 1953 till the Yarnell Hill Fire (19) in 2013 Storm King was (14) I hope and believe it will be a long time before a Fire takes more than 19 lives but some day it may happen and there will always be Fire Fatalities you can not take the Human factor of making mistakes and Bad decisions out of the equation..

        Reply

        • Well…it appears that this story has been told and is now is understood as well as it can be by putting pieces of the puzzle together with mittens on and in poor lighting while some people like our hapless hero and the fucking assholes running the USFS and BLM fire programs play stinky finger and take turns hiding the truth up each other butts.

          The Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew Families sued for changes in the system…what a joke! The 800 pound silver back mountain gorilla and his little buddy the orangutan shit on the little spider monkeys, the Arizona State Forestry Division. HA! LOL! SOFT GIGGLES and LOUD GUFFAWS!

          Reply

          • Wish I could argue with you Gary but what you said is true.
            I never had a belief that what we found here would ever make it to the Fire Gods List of things to Change
            We are Irrelevant in the grater scheme of things.
            Will the rules change I don’t think so.
            Did they change after the South Canyon Fire?
            About the Only changes in the Last 50 years
            5 more situations that shout watch out.

            Least we forget Right now===
            OVER 26,000 FIRE FIGHTERS ON THE LINE
            554 HAND CREWS
            1775 FIRE ENGINES
            173 HELICOPTERS
            ALL THE RETARDENT PLANES
            THAT IS ALL THIS PAST WEEK

            WAIGH THAT AGINST THE PERCENT OF INJURIES
            WILD LAND FIRE IS STILL DOING A GREAT JOB OF SAFETY
            THOUGH WE HAVE LOST TWO BROTHERS
            ONE IS ONE TO MANY THERE WILL ALWAYS BE EXPOSURE IN THE SUPPRESSION JOB AGINST MOTHER NATURE AND FIRE. ALL HIGH RISK JOBS CARRY THE CHANCE OF INJURY AND DEATH.

            Reply

  195. Gary Olson said “And even if it would have only been ONE of them (talk to the old school smokejumper who waited out the South Canyon Fire in the rocks because he didn’t believe in fire shelters and wasn’t even carrying one that day) who could have found a place to escape the flames in the boulder field behind them…which one of you would turn down that deal?”

    Hopefully at a calmer point there can be some serious analysis of when and how to fragment a crew in order to expedite an orderly retreat in this sort of situation. Certainly public statements since have been unhelpful in this regard, as Dudley and others have voiced contempt for “rabbits” and approved of the whole crew sticking together, packs and all.

    Under current views, in my estimation someone who did act, effectively, on their own initiative to improve their situation by taking shelter in the rocks would have been condemned in the aftermath, and at very least subject to some internal investigation. Even though under official standards they have every right currently to do this.

    Worse, this was a hot fire among other things, and there are more cases where retreat rather than lying down where you are may dramatically change things for the better.

    Reply

    • I should say there’s already some serious analysis, but more calm analysis now, not using the emotions of the YHF to guide things, could be helpful.

      Reply

      • SR—The real basic in this is not putting your self in the position in the first place.

        The second is if you are going there walking or working, evaluate what your options for safety are and have a PLAN a LOOKOUT and a location SAFE AREA to retreat to with out panic.

        The Third is rely on the 18 Watch outs.
        3, Safety Zones and Escape routs not Identified.
        7. No Communications with Supervisors, discuss your options before you move.
        9. Building line down hill or walking down into a canyon with active Fire near you.
        11. Unburned fuel between you and the Fire
        12. Can not see main fire and not in contact with any one that can.
        14. Weather is getting hotter and dryer.
        15. wind increases and changes directions
        17. Terrain and Fuels make escape to Safety zones Difficult.

        All the Above were screaming at the GM Hotshots and yet they left the Black with out the LCES especially a LOOKOUT.

        SR In this situation they failed to provide for safety first.

        A look out would have pulled them out before the fire got to them A good lookout with solid information on Fire behavior would have pulled them back up while they had time and they could have retreated over the back side.

        I do not believe they thought they could not make the Ranch and were not even looking at any possible other scenarios I am not sure a scatter and run at the point they got to would have been any more successful in the Brush they were in.
        once in the rocks its still 50/50 that you are in the right place to survive.
        The bottom line is they put themselves in the position they were in and had few options depending to heavily on shelters. They stretched their ability to far to retreat Drop packs and run they probably did not consider they had their Shelters.
        did they understand how much area they needed probably not.
        So I fall back to the Fact they had no plan beyond getting to BSR.
        This is the kind of thing that we Thought and Thought and don’t ever put your self in that position. This is simply another reference as to why you never do what GM did.

        They were in the Black to move any where else was a risk no matter how you evaluate it. They violated severial 10’s and Ignored severial 18’s

        When you have to deploy or drop your packs and run your entire Safety Plan has failed GM NEVER EVEN HAD ONE FROM WHAT WE KNOW as a supervisor you have failed the basics of a fire fighter or a Supervisor.

        Yes I have had to run and push a crew to a Safety Zone but that was the plan and every time we made it with time to spare and some times with fire on my ass but we had a plan and it always worked. We had a Lookout who gave us enough warning. non of my crews have ever dropped tools or packs. when the threat was over we went back to work some times starting all over again.. 90% of the time we retreated into the Black and I sat in the Black till it was safe to reengage. 30 min. to 4 or 5 hours.

        In the end no matter where you are be aware of your surrounding’s and continually update you safety plan, escape and safe areas. the Rocks were a feasible alternative one thing that should have been considered was staying close to them if there was a need to retreat but then that would have been admitting they should not have been there in the first place. Just another Lack of SITUATIONAL AWEARNESS.

        I would ask any Fire Fighter would they have built line down thru that Canyon?
        ( first you could not hold line in a canyon bottom.)
        If the Answer is no then why would any one walk down into it.?????
        When the Fire was less than 3/4 mile from it with a Mile of active flame front.

        The First objective is to never be in that situation consider the what ifs.
        The Second is to always move with a plan and a backup plan as you move.

        .

        Reply

        • MY REPLY BELOW IN CAPS:
          Bob Powers says

          August 14, 2015 at 11:01 am

          SR—The real basic in this is not putting your self in the position in the first place. TRUE YET HARD TO DO WHEN EITHER ONE YOU ARE OR WERE A PART OF THE FIREFIGHTER COMMUNITY AND OR LIKE ME HIKED THAT AREA TOO MANY TIMES…ITS EASY TO PLACE SELF IN IT…BECAUSE OF THE FACT TO “MAKE SENSE OF IT ALL” WHICH HAS NOT MADE SENSE YEARS LATER…EVEN WITH KNOWING SOME ELEMENTS…

          The second is if you are going there walking or working, evaluate what your options for safety are and have a PLAN a LOOKOUT
          MY REPLY:
          MISSING ELEMENT/NOT YET SURFACED INFORMATION BUT WOULD LOVE FOR IT TO SURFACE SOME DAY—HINT: MAN WITH SNIFFING DOG WHO IS OR WAS A FIREFIGHTER ON OR NOT ON THAT YHF WHO TOOK THEIR DOG ON MANZANITA AFTER THE YHF TOWARDS SESAME…IF YOU ARE READING THIS—PLEASE SHARE ON HERE YOUR TAKE OF WHAT YOU CAME OUT WITH ON YOUR INVESTIGATIONS AND SEARCH…”PLEASE”

          and a location SAFE AREA to retreat to with out panic.
          MY REPLY:
          THAT WOULD BE WHERE THEY WERE OR WHERE WE WENT NOT IN THAT CANYON.

          The Third is rely on the 18 Watch outs.
          3, Safety Zones and Escape routs not Identified. I THOUGHT THEY WERE THAT MORNING?
          7. No Communications with Supervisors, discuss your options before you move. WE ARE NOT SURE HERE—NEED THE MISSING ELEMENTS HERE THAN WE CAN CONFIRM THIS
          9. Building line down hill or walking down into a canyon with active Fire near you. OKAY, SEE…I DO NOT GET IT…IT IS ACTUALLY NUMBER NINE IN THE RULES? YET ?????
          11. Unburned fuel between you and the Fire WOW. SERIOUS. AND YET …I AM FLABBERGASTED…
          12. Can not see main fire and not in contact with any one that can.MISSING ELEMENTS PART BECAUSE IT HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED MARSH WAS NOT WITH MEN OR WITH THEM…AND AS WELL…MISSING ELEMENTS CAN HELP HERE
          14. Weather is getting hotter and dryer. IT WAS PICKING UP ON SPRINKLING…SQUIRELLY WINDS…AND HELL YES IT WAS HOT…
          15. wind increases and changes directionsYEP
          17. Terrain and Fuels make escape to Safety zones Difficult.YEP

          All the Above were screaming at the GM Hotshots and yet they left the Black with out the LCES especially a LOOKOUT.
          HARD TO BREATH—
          GOTTA WALK AWAY FOR A BIT..JUST DON’T THINK LIKE JACK NICKLAUS WOULD SAY..”YOU CAN’T HANDLE THE…”
          I DO NOT THINK I CAN.

          SR In this situation they failed to provide for safety first.
          AFTER READING THAT—AGREED.

          A look out would have pulled them out before the fire got to them A good lookout with solid information on Fire behavior would have pulled them back up while they had time and they could have retreated over the back side.WHERE WE WENT

          I do not believe they thought they could not make the Ranch and were not even looking at any possible other scenarios I am not sure a scatter and run at the point they got to would have been any more successful in the Brush they were in.
          once in the rocks its still 50/50 that you are in the right place to survive.
          The bottom line is they put themselves in the position they were in and had few options depending to heavily on shelters. They stretched their ability to far to retreat Drop packs and run they probably did not consider they had their Shelters.
          did they understand how much area they needed probably not.
          So I fall back to the Fact they had no plan beyond getting to BSR.
          IT APPEARS THAT WAY

          Reply

          • Joy you did well how ever I do not believe that Marsh ever talked to his Superiors or even to Frisby about the move out of the BLACK.
            The IC and both OPS said they did not know the crew had left the BLACK.
            Any one of the 18 that was questionable should have stopped them in their tracks more than one should have kept them in the Black.
            While some of your answers– don’t think we have enough info– I think I do.

            If Marsh would have in any way been the look out he would have pulled them out of there.
            Non of the OPS or IC had a clue they had left the Black
            That’s good enough for me.
            The one hatching the Tractor line and possibly moved the crew was a Strike Team Leader and had no authority over Marsh and no clearance to do what we believe he was doing from OPS or IC which is required to be cleared by both.
            So no they moved with out following Safety and the 18. They had no pre scouted open escape route to call beating a path thru Brush a escape route is Lunatic thinking.
            That’s how year after year we are losing fire fighters lack of following the safety rules. The evidence is there in this fire just like all others.

            The crazy thing here is the amount of violations when staying in the Black they violated none. You can pick and chose but you still end up with a lot of them.
            NO Look Out, No escape route, No communications with any one who knew what they were doing much less authorization from IC or OPS.

            Reply

    • And as usual some things are lost in communicating like this. But I would never suggest a hotshot crew should fragment without the order coming from the person in charge (senior crewman, squad boss or crew boss). In the scenario I am imagining, what should have happened is that Jesse Steed would have given the order for the crew to run for their lives, all in the same direction with Steed being the man he was bringing up the rear and helping those who needed help.

      The crew would still have behaved like a hotshot crew and not a gaggle of smokejumpers, but they would have run together, instead of laying down together. But…your point is well taken, I don’t like what Dudley said either. In fact, I don’t like anything about Dudley. And in my scenario, they could have called Marsh and he could have backtracked to the ranch and saved himself. Wildland firefighters should not be made to feel like there will be consequences for running. That is the right thing to do sometimes. Dudley is full of you know what (I have taken a non-expletive use vow).

      And I don’t think any of us should forget that although Marsh made a very bad mistake with a very unforgiving fire, there is no question he loved his crew and in fact, I believe he probably knew he was running up that box canyon to very likely die with them, but he went anyway.

      Reply

      • Ideal scenario would definitely have been for Steed to give the order. But, split the crew into groups of three or so, which work much better in that situation. Boss stays with the slowest, agreed.

        However, another scenario: a crew are being asked to do something really stupid, obviously stupid., and whoever is Boss isn’t going to give an order to retreat or fragment. That’s where having more of a true safety culture could be quite helpful. You can then couch a decision to fragment as either someone being a rabbit, or someone showing initiative in the face of changing facts.

        Reply

  196. I don’t know if it is me, or this particular idea, or my presentation of this particular idea…or all of the above, but I don’t seem to be getting much traction with my “how big is big enough” concept, so I am going to try one more time. One of my nicknames was “The Jackhammer” when I was working, and it wasn’t said in a friendly or complimentary way. But if this idea doesn’t go anywhere this one last time I am going to let it go….I promise.

    1. The primary reason the families per se (this is a broad statement and I am sure there are exceptions…maybe many exceptions to this statement) of the GMIHC have not be to find out the truth why their loved ones died, is because they have not been able or willing to face or accept the truth (please keep reading, it gets better, but first it’s going to get worse). The GMIHC died because of series of their own deeply flawed decisions and like in so many disasters, it was not just one decision or factor, but a cascading and cumulative effect of a series of bad decisions. We also know for a fact that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed owned these decisions, because that ownership and responsibility went with their pay grade. That is just the way it works. Now for the sake of this discussion, I am not going to get into whether Eric or Jesse was actually running the crew when those decisions were made, because I think we can all agree after this much time that although Jesse was the Acting Crew Boss and Eric was Division A, Eric was still really the one running the GMIHC as the crew boss and calling the shots through Jesse. And yes…Jesse could have technically told him Eric “no”, but for any of us who have been either a Marine in combat or a hotshot on the fire line…that was not a practical course of action. Making his objections known and then following his orders was the correct course of action for a good Marine in combat or a hotshot on the fire line and Jesse was both. They say there is no such thing as a “former” Marine. Remember…hotshot crew bosses are right 99.999 per cent of the time, that’s why they are hotshot crew boss, and you have to play the odds.

    2. As you know by now, my background is both in investigations as a federal agent and in firefighting as a hotshot. I am wearing my former investigators hat for the purpose of writing this comment. Whenever there is a shooting (or excessive use of force and/or related charges) involving law enforcement that may in fact be a bad shooting resulting in a fatality…the training records of that officer or agent draws internal affairs (or the OIG, or the Office of Professional Responsibility or the head hunters or the rat squad or the whatever you want to call them) and the attorneys for the families of the shootee as well as the attorneys for the shooter like chum draws the sharks. So, when I say we need to go after the training records, materials and manuals…I am not just making this up as I go along, I am speaking from years of both experience and training in these matters. Law Enforcement has been operating for decades under the Kleig lights compared to the wildland firefighting community who has been operating in the darkness for decades with virtually no oversight except from people who share their common interests and goals (let’s cover this up and move on). The Yarnell Hill Fire is their first experience with having anything they say or do relating to an investigation questioned…by anybody. They have gone from doing everything under the cloak of secrecy and smoke and mirrors with the “move along citizen…there is nothing to see here” and “these aren’t the droids you’re looking for” standard operating procedures to having everything they say or write analyzed six ways to Sunday by us and a bunch of other people. They are putting are brave face on it, but I bet the powers that be behind the SAIT and the SAIT themselves are in shock at how this has gone and I bet they won’t do it the same way again. I don’t know how they will do it, but they will try not to do such a sloppy cover up on the next disaster fire. They have never been challenged before, except by Dr. Ted Putnam. And although they could not write Dr. Putnam off as a malcontent or a wacko, they could just ignore him and leave him alone to be the one voice crying out in the wilderness for decades while no one (who mattered to them) was listening.

    3. I have always been a direct action kind of guy. Blogging into the Ethernet is not really my thing, I would rather go out and hunt something down and kill it. But I can’t do that in this case, I don’t have standing. So…back to our example of a fatal shooting that may or not be a bad shooting. I am using this example because it is the most serious event in law enforcement for both for the shooter, the shootee, the department or agency and the deceased’s family, friends and loved ones, in addition to the community as a whole. After the shooting, the plaintiff’s attorneys don’t sue the department or agency because they had officers or agents engaged in law enforcement activities either in routine patrol or some kind of large scale special operation, everybody (like the courts) know the departments or agencies have sovereign immunity (is that term sounding familiar…like from my postings up to two years ago?) and that routine patrol or large scale special operations are “inherently dangerous” (sound familiar?) endeavors that the courts have given departments and agencies wide latitude and scope with a lot of leeway in how they conduct either routine patrol or large scale special operations because they are necessary for public safety and for the public good and the courts do not second guess them or micro manage how departments or agencies protect the public unless they violate somebody’s constitutional rights (is all of this sounding familiar?) in the process and the courts they step in and punish them, otherwise they stay out the law enforcement business or the wildland firefighting business (are you able to draw some comparisons to what recently happened?) and let the professional managers…manage without oversight from Judges.

    4. But…that wide latitude the courts give departments or agencies do not extend to insufficient, incomplete or incompetent training of officers or agents who shoot people in bad shootings. That is why law enforcement departments and agencies are anal retentive (like they were potty trained with a gun to their heads, or at least those who don’t like to pay out large settlements) when it comes to both the quality and quantities (to meet state wide standards established by oversight boards, called the NWCG in the wildland firefighting community) of training, the completion and proper certification of the training and the just as important, organization and retention of training records. They are really good at doing these things because they have been the target of successful lawsuits for decades because their officers or agents had insufficient training and or they kept poor and incomplete records. That is why the training records, materials and manuals of officers or agents (or hotshots in this case) who are involved in tragic loss of life scenarios attract attorneys like chumming attracts sharks. Now…if we accept the following;

    a. The deaths of the GMIHC are the fault of the GMIHC supervisors i.e., Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed.

    We need to look for the reasons why that occurred. Now we know they left the safety of the black for reasons that are still unclear, conventional wisdom insists they were trying to move to their “bomb proof safe zone” which of course does not make any sense because they were already in a nuclear bomb proof safe zone, hundreds if not thousands of acres of black that had already burned. So…the smart money, Norb and I (and others) believe they left the black because of some half baked last minute Hail Mary poorly conceived and executed plan to back fire the backside of Yarnell from a hastily constructed dozer line. And this occurred either because some manager (e.g., Darrell Willis) either strongly suggested they do that or Eric Marsh knew that was what was expected of him to save the crew from the pencil neck budget cutters and weak leaders back in Everybody’s Home Town, Prescott, Arizona. Maybe some Ops person even called him and asked him to di di mau most ricky tick to Glen Isla to back fire the town…we still don’t know, but we suspect. But…that doesn’t matter in this discussion. That isn’t why the GMIHC died. The GMIHC died because they deployed their fire shelters in an area that was not survivable. And to make matters worse, they spent a lot of time prepping an area that was never going to be survivable given the extreme fire conditions when they should have been running for their very lives. The area they selected was way too SMALL! Last year other commenter’s told me, “They didn’t have any choice, that was the best area they had under the circumstances.” To which I reply, “If the best area you have available to you to deploy your shelters under the circumstances is not survivable…RUN!” What we don’t know right now…is did the GMIHC know that? Were the GMIHC properly trained in how to identify a survivable deployment site? Did they receive training in FIREFIGHTER SAFETY ZONES: HOW BIG IS BIG ENOUGH? by Bret W. Butler and Jack D. Cohen http://www.fs.fed.us/fire/fmt/fmt_pdfs/fmn58-1.pdf

    We need to find out. Somebody needs to take the lead here and find out for the GMIHC. So…who is going to do it? Do I need to drive down to Everybody’s Home Town and do this myself?

    Reply

      • I would love for you to come and ask Glen Ilah residents anr Shrine area residents sp there iis another,asking. because the longer the time goes by…without just that happening the leas chance for change and as well better clarity.
        What if there was NO ORDER just a mishap in communications and radio errors and due to time at that time they had plenty and then the missing elements of sesame to shrine still up for better clarity and than mother nature …could you rest knowing there was no order but plenty of time at the time and radio miscommunications? Plus the same ridge Tex and I. disagreed …the Helms looks deceptively near and I was gonna take cattle pond way…until missing elements come forth.
        .I don’t like to read any part on Willis or Marsh or Steed because. point blank its way too hard for me and I did not evdn know the men personally…all I cann say I have hiked that box canyon way too many times Many More than Tex and I can comprehendiit if they felt they had ample time and yet I do believe Central Yavapai FD and Blue Ridge carry a lot of clarity…back ti sleep maybe …having hard time with Marcia’s news…I am having GMHS and June 30 nightmares

        Reply

        • Clarifying so people don’t read into what I just said and make it THEIR OWN…I hiked tr box canyon more than anyone BEFORE the fire and so I don’t wake up hearing anothervversversion or misperception …make it very clear before the fire I can tell YOU who was on the Weavers for thr past decade…not Tex or anyone else…because it was and I emphasize STRONGLY. “Was” my serene spot to go away from my subdivision world…Aguila offered me mountain goats and elk and deer but Weavers was closer than Aguila to explore and you can confirmwwith prior Congress principal who would ride her horse WAY OUT there and find me alone the desert walker or at times touring Saguara National park folks or a local but Toni Wayas is one of many that can confirmsshshe saw me many many miles from nowhere on thr mountains of Date Creek and Weavers long before any fire.. yet state feels its okay to leave my place of peace restricted for HOW LONG?

          Reply

      • In tune with Otis–I agree with Bob Powers and Gary Olsen on their comments. They did indeed have time to drop packs, tools and make it to the boulders in this case. If you look at the boulders to the south the crew was in close proximity. They were in that sandy canyon and only about a 7o yard dash though the brush. But defining the dash or run to the boulders I would mean that they would advance as fast as possible toward the boulders. That brush was passable to the south if you look at photos before the fire to the south of where they deployed. You would have had perhaps five to ten minutes to transverse the 70 yards and in high school I could make a hundred yard dash in seconds–9 or 10 or 11?, no record but fast for the times. That brush could be by passed in less than five but to the north it was much thicker and a longer dash. It would have taken more time but the boulders to the north allowed a wider and larger safety area. Why they never considered the boulders I do not know since I am no fireman but that was foremost in my mind getting out with Joy. I wanted to keep near those boulders as much as possible since I had early on decided that would be our only possible escape if the fire started to catch up to us. I know now what was going on at Sesame street where they were doing a burn out or back burn and believe that was where the wind change brought the backburn or burn out back toward foothills and toward or below Helms and that we did not know about at the time. It is what nearly caught us and why we saw people moving out fast along foothills when we got to our vehicle parked along that street.

        That was one question I asked Dr. Ted Putnam about–Why wouldn’t they go to the boulders? He said that the way those shelters need to be deployed is so you can use your arms and legs to stretch the things above your torso to create a pocket inside the shelter and so the shelter is not directly against your body. He told me it would be hard to use the shelters in the boulders the way they should be properly deployed. I understand now what Gary and Bob are saying when they talk about whether a shelter is even an option in a zone of such thick brush and made thicker by them pilling it around their deployment area. That would be a good thing to study and understand–how much area would you need in that type manzanita to survive. We know Donut would have died at the grader, an option he had considered because there was a clearing there of maybe 40 yards in diameter with grader in center, yet the tires burned off that grader and the steel changed colors to blue on the floor plate of that antique. Cans on the perimeter with lead had the lead melted out, so if he had any fillings they would likely have melted too.

        Well to the north they certainly had plenty of area on the north and south side of the north ridge, at least a football field of area remained unburned–there was no vegetation to burn. The south had less area than the north but ample as far as I could tell and those boulders have piled on each other so much that there are cavities underneath in a number of places where one could duck below the surface enough to escape overhead heat. It is certainly one area that ought to be investigated and perhaps can be included in some future training–drop and run vs stay obedient, brave and ignorant and burn.

        Thanks for the true way this is addressed to Bob and Gary–the only way that future men on the line will learn and definitely if the actions the GMHS took makes them famous it is that they have given their lives to show wild land fire fighters what not to do.

        Reply

        • REPLY IN CAPS BELOW:
          Sonny says

          August 14, 2015 at 12:50 pm

          In tune with Otis–I agree with Bob Powers and Gary Olsen on their comments. WHICH PART OF THE COMMENTS…They did indeed have time to drop packs, tools and make it to the boulders in this case.BEFORE OR AFTER CHAINSAW ACTIVITY SONNY? If you look at the boulders to the south the crew was in close proximity. EXACTLY-AGREEThey were in that sandy canyon and only about a 7o yard dash though the brush. But defining the dash or run to the boulders I would mean that they would advance as fast as possible toward the boulders. YEAH- THANK YOU FOR FUTHER DEFINING IT That brush was passable to the south if you look at photos before the fire to the south of where they deployed. BUT NOT IN A RUN MOTION BUT MAKE MY FREAKING WAY BEST WAY POSSIBLE WAY You would have had perhaps five to ten minutes to transverse the 70 yards and in high school I could make a hundred yard dash in seconds–9 or 10 or 11?, no record but fast for the times. That brush could be by passed in less than five but to the north it was much thicker and a longer dash. It would have taken more time but the boulders to the north allowed a wider and larger safety area. Why they never considered the boulders I do not know since I am no fireman but that was foremost in my mind getting out with Joy.YES IT WAS AND I HAVE HEARD IT ALOT SINCE BUT TO ME I FELT TIME WISE CURVING TO THE CATTLE POND VERSUS WITH MY HEALTH..THE HEAT AND THE FACT I HIKED FROM PRESCOTT TO WILHOIT JUST DAYS BEFORE PLUS ALL THE HIKING THAT WEEK AND MY SHINS WERE TIRED AND WELL, THE CATTLE POND WAY SEEM THE WAY FOR ME AND MY LIFE…PLUS I HAD MY SNAKE BOOTS OFF SO MY FEET SWELLED—PLUS I HAVE A FREAKED UP LYMPHATIC SERIOUS CONCERNS PLUS OTHER AREAS SERIOUS CONCERNS AND LEARNING THE WAY HE TOOK ME—I HAD 12 RIBS OUT OF PLACE DROPPING DOWN HIS WAY….SO WELL, I DO NOT AGREE YET TO THIS DAY BUT I WENT HIS WAY AND THAT IS THAT… I wanted to keep near those boulders as much as possible since I had early on decided that would be our only possible escape if the fire started to catch up to us.HE DID THINK LIKE THAT ON THAT DAY I know now what was going on at Sesame street where they were doing a burn out or back burn and believe that was where the wind change brought the backburn or burn out back toward foothills and toward or below Helms and that we did not know about at the time.THAT IS MISSING ELEMENTS INFORMATION SONNY THAT NEEDS FURTHER LOOKING INTO It is what nearly caught us and why we saw people moving out fast along foothills when we got to our vehicle parked along that street.VERY TRUE…IT WAS LIKE YESTERDAY WHEN I THINK BACK OF ALL THE CHAOS AND PEOPLE HUSSLING AROUND IN THAT FOOTHILLS AREA…VERY TRUE

          That was one question I asked Dr. Ted Putnam about–Why wouldn’t they go to the boulders? He said that the way those shelters need to be deployed is so you can use your arms and legs to stretch the things above your torso to create a pocket inside the shelter and so the shelter is not directly against your body. He told me it would be hard to use the shelters in the boulders the way they should be properly deployed. I understand now what Gary and Bob are saying when they talk about whether a shelter is even an option in a zone of such thick brush and made thicker by them pilling it around their deployment area. That would be a good thing to study and understand

          –I AGREE

          how much area would you need in that type manzanita to survive. We know Donut would have died at the grader, an option he had considered because there was a clearing there of maybe 40 yards in diameter with grader in center, yet the tires burned off that grader and the steel changed colors to blue on the floor plate of that antique. Cans on the perimeter with lead had the lead melted out, so if he had any fillings they would likely have melted too.
          I STILL FEEL DONUT WAS IN THE MOST DANGER THAT DAY

          Well to the north they certainly had plenty of area on the north and south side of the north ridge, at least a football field of area remained unburned–there was no vegetation to burn. The south had less area than the north but ample as far as I could tell and those boulders have piled on each other so much that there are cavities underneath in a number of places where one could duck below the surface enough to escape overhead heat. It is certainly one area that ought to be investigated and perhaps can be included in some future training–drop and run vs stay obedient, brave and ignorant and burn.
          Thanks for the true way this is addressed to Bob and Gary–the only way that future men on the line will learn and definitely if the actions the GMHS took makes them famous it is that they have given their lives to show wild land fire fighters what not to do.WHAT NOT TO DO? SHEW. HARD FOR ME TO READ.
          I GUESS IT IS TIME FOR ME TO STEP AWAY SINCE I AM WAY TOO SENSITIVE THAT MY READING IS CAUSING ME A DEFENSE MECHANISM THAT EVEN THAT COMMENT SEEMS CALLOUS WITHOUT ALL MISSING ELEMENTS SURFACED…SIGH; “GIRLS”…YOU BOYS CARRY ON…ENJOY…I AM OFF…SOME WAY OR SOME DAY I WILL STOP BY…JUST THIS TOPIC IS NOT ONE I AM CAPABLE TO DISCUSS RIGHT

          Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. I want to repeat why I am suspicious the GMIHC did not know they would die by deploying their fire shelters where they did. Because I was on fires from 1974 through 1976 where we did not use fire shelters, even though the Chief of the USFS had mandated they were to be carried by hotshot crews while fighting fire in areas with highly combustible fuels (they weren’t). And I was on the fire where everybody changed their mind about doing what the Chief of the USFS ordered to happen almost a decade earlier…the Battlement Creek Fire in 1976. Finally, I was on fires from 1977 as a hotshot supervisor through 1984 where I trained others on the importance of carrying and knowing how to properly deploy fire shelters in a worst case scenario. And I didn’t know the GMIHC would die by deploying their fire shelters where they did until a couple of years ago.

      I didn’t even think about “how big is big enough” until I was doing research for my book, Betrayed By Our Fire Gods, you can download Chapter 1 ,which is basically a stand alone short story of what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire for free at http://ourfiregods.com/primary/inmemeo.html and the study cited above popped up with a internet search because it is associated with the Battlement Creek Fire.

      The only thing I knew up until that point was to look for the best clearing you can find and deploy your shelter and hope for the best (as far as I was concerned the last step in deploying your fire shelter was to bend over and kiss your ass goodbye). We were never told, and I never told anyone else…if the area you have to deploy your fire shelter is not survivable…RUN! Did that change? And if it did change, when did it change. And did the message get to the GMIHC. Or did they train to die…just like I did many years ago? WE NEED TO KNOW!

      Reply

      • I cannot tell you how many timea Sonny has told me.to o..run and go to the boulders but again the final moment when this happened I don’t think in that maze like terrain it was possible to run…it was just too dense. and you could not run…it was not possible in that thick brush…if they burned and cleared behind them and to the south near the washwhere they died there is huge cave like boulders …i can’t sleep .

        very rough night thinking of the 19 men and how we can help reach the clarity…i am low energy and health and if i ever passed on please look deeper into my comments anf who i named and read between the lines of who i tried to name and talk to dr ted putnam and john dougherty because i always kept them in the loop. Fernanda Santos spent a lot of time with everyone ..a lot…so she should have an excellent view …i am.so sad and i am.sorry marcia and all about the dismiss and went to appeals but keeping the faith alive…i am.deciding to shave my.head because i have bleached out ridiculous hair and i awake and say who is that…
        to thid day Marsh only alerted us of air attack…we hsd no clue of fire terminology of drip torches and flanking a fire and back.burns so i would hope any supervisors that sew hikers alerting folks on hill about fire to not just mention air attack but the capabilities pf ground activities because we never knew they did that…
        fadarn cell…typos all night

        Reply

        • I can’t sleep either Joy, thinking about the GMIHC tonight. I am not obsessed by this event and I rarely do this, but sometimes I do, like tonight.

          So…no offense but you aren’t listening to me…if the area you have to deploy your fire shelter is not survivable…you have to run, however thick the brush is, you have to run until you either make it out or die trying. ANYTHING beats laying down in the dirt and being burned alive. OK?

          Reply

          • Well after a long answer I started to Gary my answer froze up and lost it all will try later but for now you are right on.

            Reply

            • That has happened to me more than once and really sucks, and takes the steam right out of a guy. FYI, my little trick is to left click and copy it every paragraph or so just in case I screw up. If I am writing a really long one, I do it in Word Perfect and then copy and past it, I still screw up, but not as often or as bad. You have my condolences.

              Reply

          • REPLY IN CAPS BELOW:
            Gary Olson says
            AUGUST 14, 2015 AT 4:48 AM

            I can’t sleep either Joy, thinking about the GMIHC tonight. I am not obsessed by this event and I rarely do this, but sometimes I do, like tonight.

            So…no offense but you aren’t listening to me…if the area you have to deploy your fire shelter is not survivable THAN MY POINT IS WHY EVEN DROP DOWN IN THAT CANYON BECAUSE ITS A TRAP SO ALL THE CLEARING YOU DO WON’T HELP…THEY WERE BETTER OFF LIKE IT OLD FIRE HISTORIAN STEPHEN PYNE TO TAKE THE TIME THEY DID FOR CHAIN SAW OR BACK BURN OR DRIP TORCH AND KEPT TRAILING TO “THAT” WASH RIGHT NEXT TO WHERE THEY DIED AND TRAILED THE WASH AND BASE OF THOSE TALL BOULDERS TIGHT SO THEY CAN MANEUVER INTO THERE VERSUS BEING CAUGHT IN THAT THICKET IS ALL I AM SAYING…RUNNING IN THE THICKET WAS NOT POSSIBLE…THE DECISION TO DROP DOWN IN IT IS WHAT I HAVE HUGE TROUBLES UNDERSTANDING KNOWING THAT AREA OH TOO WELL…ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING THE FACT OF THE POSSIBILITIES OF THE INJURY ONE COULD HAVE HAD ON THE THE STEEP ONE DOWN LIKE A SPRAIN OR SORTS NOT REPORTED …you have to runWHY HAVE TO RUN IF YOU MADE ANOTHER CHOICE TO HIKE TIGHT TO THE WASH NEAR THEY DIED NEAR THE SOUTHERN TALL BOULDERS VS TAKING TIME FOR SOME HORSESHIT BACKBURN WITH THE MOTHER FREAKING DENSE AMOUNT OF DATURA PLANT THAT WAS IN THAT VERY AREA THEY DIED…NAH THEY SHOULD OF WALKED NOT RUN AND OPTED OUT OF BACKBURN AND CHAIN SAW ACTIVITY….AND JUST MADE THEIR WAY CLOSER TO THE LEAST VEGETATION AND THE MOST CAVE LIKE BOULDERS SO THEY COULD SKIM THROUGH THE BOULDERS TO THE CATTLE POND AREA……, however thick the brush is, you have to run until you either make it out or die trying. ANYTHING beats laying down in the dirt and being burned alive. OK? AGAIN I HAVE SPOKEN TO SOME OF THE BEST INVESTIGATORS THAT HAVE WORKED WITH THE BEST TEAMS AND ITS NOT THE SAIT I ASSURE YOU BUT SAY THAT FIRE WAS WAY AWAY FROM THEM—EVER THINK OF THAT? AND THE FRONT FIRE THAT CAME TOWARDS THEM DID NOT HIT THEM HEAD ON BUT MADE A CANOPY EFFECT OVER THEM WAY AWAY FROM THEM MEETING UP IN A VACUUM EFFECT TO THE FIRE THEY DID AND THEN IT DROPPED BACK DOWN AND BACK AT THEM NOT GIVING THE THE AMPLE TIME NOT EVEN TO GET INTO SHELTERS PROPERLY NEVER THE LESS RUN…PLEASE ANYONE WHO HAS THIS FIRE TERMINOLOGY RING IN HERE PLEASE AND HELP ME UNDERSTAND THAT CANYON…AND HOW RUNNING WAS AN OPTION? ESPECIALLY IF ONE FACTOR WAS THERE WAS AN INJURY ON THAT CREW NOT YET REPORTED BECAUSE OF TRYING TO QUICKLY MANEUVER THROUGH AND GET TO THEIR DESTINATION…WITHOUT THE MISSING ELEMENTS WE CAN DISCUSS ALL DAY AND ALL YEAR AND MANY DECADES BUT WE ‘NEED’ THESE MISSING ELEMENTS…SORRY TO THE ONE OR ONE WHO DO NOT WANT TO HEAR DISCUSSIONS ON THIS HARD PART BECAUSE ITS HARD FOR ME TO THINK ABOUT NEVERTHELESS DISCUSS IT EVEN ONLINE…VERY HARD…BUT YOU WANT TO START THROWING OUT RUNNING…THAN LET ME THROW OUT THE OBSTACLES…DISAGREE ALL DAY IF YOU WANT BUT WITHOUT THE MISSING ELEMENTS…NO ONE REALLY HAS A THING EVEN ME…JUST PASSING BY DISCUSSIONS ON THE YARNELL HILL FIRE IN OUR OWN HUMBLE OPINIONS…

            Reply

              • Number one, why would nineteen…yes nineteen men think let us drop into the canyon…if they stayed on north boulders high you have faster maneuvering off that saddle ridge to the base that is in front of the Helm’s vs dropping in canyon…and if you dropped down and thought “oh geez” than why not get to the wash area where they died and just keep going to Helm’s versus making a drip torch and chain saw activity..see MISSING ELEMENTS can give clarity WHY…so until I see public not private or hearsay views of what the missing elements are than to me its just ALL including my own HUMBLE OPINIONS and discussions…nah…those manzanita branches were so squirrely intertwined creating a maze like terrain so running…nah unless you were in that wash but even then BEFORE the fire it was tight knit woven bushes and that wash was not some sandy draw you just pranced about—some parts as Sonny said you had to bear wallow through

                Reply

                • has anyone ever felt like we are the jury system for this here Yarnell Hill Fire as we discuss and try to weed out…and it just feels like we are the ones really publicly trying to figure out HOW we can help these 19 and all fallen so it does not happen again…sad….freaking sad…

                  Reply

                  • I am reading Sonny’s comment next to me where Sonny is agreeing with Bob Powers and Gary comments yet a few hours ago he did not agree for he is the one that told me THOSE MEN COULD NOT RUN IN THAT THICK BRUSH….they can maneuver through it…so anything he adds now just adds to me the good ol’ boys mentality of they got this fire licked and NOONE can have anything even me but humble opinions…UNTIL THE MISSING ELEMENTS SURFACE and there is indeed MISSING ELEMENTS

                    Reply

              • Gary Olson says

                August 14, 2015 at 12:28 pm

                Yes, you are right, they should have not gone down that canyon.

                my reply:
                but now that they did…now calculate “worst case scenarios”
                what could delay or enhance such journey…
                to me, I am having HARD…I mean HARD time with Sonny and all thinking of such solutions not knowing all the details….
                so to me, not having all details—easier to say—why the hell drop down there—stumbles me where they died because yes it neared the wash but I KNEW that wash and how the manzanita branches were crazy intertwined and it was not easy…why did the men opt to cut out there and burn there?
                I am sorry but I can barely breathe on that one…I have to walk away from this discussion for a bit because it is not at all that I disagree or agree on topic but without all elements than this is no better than the narrative the SAIT did is all…and I won’t be looking back to see what Sonny writes or anyone or don’t write but this area IS my hardest area that about KILLS me mind, body and soul; really KILLS me—way too sensitive area for me—makes me wish I was in some witness protection program away from this all so I can move forward away from it all even though I say I am open to all—it is not easy to do that…the whole event of the last moments I am not ready yet to publicly talk on…I do have some insight Sonny does not know from a loved one of the men but I cannot even share to him because it may make bar side talk and its just too sensitive not even John Dougherty or Dr. Ted Putnam know…or you all…so this families some do have some insight as well to offer yet I do understand why not they have not but what a nice “cheese and cracker” world we would have if we all could just speak up and share on it the final hours piece by piece to PIECE THIS MOTHER FREAKING THING FINALLY…its a burden I carry but I took that on to lessen the burden of another…if that person did not tell me THANK YOU for being the one to hear me and I have kept quiet…if they did not acknowledge that appreciation I don’t know how to go day to day anymore…look up http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/obsession “OBSESSION”…I am not …but look up loyal and dedicated..I AM!!!
                Sonny is not me and he is free to speak aloud his views but we always even on 6-30-13 do not agree but we DO care for one another…

                Reply

                • Well if your boss made a bad decision and got you there you might be looking at those boulders and saying to yourseilf for sure this manzanita brush is going to kill me and this fire shelter as light as it is will melt unless I get to those boulders and use it in as near to the middle of the boulders I can get and preferably if possible down in under a pile where direct heat can pass over. No swimming pool but best possible chance to survive.

                  Reply

  197. When I was in Boise Yesterday I went to the Fire Fighters Memorial at the National Interagency Fire Center. To check out the Memory stones and The Rattle Snake Fire stone.
    I was pleased to also see individual stones for each of the Garnet Mountain 19. for those of you who may not have known of this Memorial
    It is a somber and yet rewarding place to always remember and well kept by the center at the Boise Air Port.

    Reply

  199. http://www.kpho.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one

    a lot of missing elements just in this article—knowing some listed in article—there is more to this article and they need to speak up not me.

    In Yarnell library there is a photo album EVERY HERO HAS A STORY and on page 5 is sweet Mikaela Palm daughter to Chief Ben Palm; who was a emt prior to Chief Koile leaving Yarnell position and really not much before that except heard he was in construction in Cottonwood and he just became the next Chief October 2013 when there was other candidates that wanted to apply but there was never a posting for such…in her words she says “my dad saves people in trouble”…

    I wish Chief Ben Palm “knew the troubles” that Congress resident Joy A. Collura has heard from so many folks in the community that his Hummer he received after the Yarnell Fire affected people—it really has— and “how” he became the chief affected people. I have only been the voice for them but I have no clue who he is except on my trails I bumped into old high school folks of his and they said he was into sports/ball and heard he was into videogames (hearsay info not direct) and there has not yet been to date any uplifting words so then it sucks because I want to try and uplift and give locals reasons to let the past lay there versus the hummer making trips at 2am be in areas it should not and it gets reported to me & I am like what do you want me to do about it? I just note it down but who am I? Really? I can tell you this…the news I hear from Sonny just now that this case with Marcia is now in appeals— royally sucks—I am not feeling well— I have local resident and business owner of the Ranch House and the painted lizard Vicki Velasquez sitting next to me as her lawyer is Craig Knapp too and hers is in appeal too–as I shared the site’s news with Vicki. She knows what we at I M and even the many people behind the scenes are doing— it is the right thing to do— she said it is wrong the judge dismissing it— I agree. I also agree with Gary on points he recently made.
    Also local residents over near Sesame always are glad to see us because they truly worry for us because we have been such a voice because so many won’t. A lot won’t because they know the powers to be in this…one says soon after the fire a private firefighter came with a sniffing dog and scoped that area out of the Sesame area to see about a back burn— you see if everyone spoke or most we would have much better clarity to properly assess the fire but instead I am labeled God knows what names behind my back but glad for the most part people want a voice to reach the truth and that is what Investigative Media means to me—the discussions and the folks who seek the truth.

    about the emotions you are facing— I would not know what to say to that because many people feel I have gone above and beyond as just the local kid on the hill that day to find clarity because of what we eye-witnessed but it is because of my life history and all I have seen from our system and just want to see the proper assessment of the Yarnell Hill fire for the 19 and all affected. …I am tied elsewhere today so I cannot read too much right now or reply but again I am very sorry for the updated news and all we can hope for is the people to speak up—maybe caught off guard in some bar or something—I have had the chance to do that just so you know and have sound recorder but just not my style—I FEEL they should just SPEAK UP!

    Reply

  200. This is the hardest news to deliver. Judge Gama granted AFS Motion to Dismiss on Aug. 7th, & it was filed yesterday the 11th. Oddly (but not really), I couldn’t find any news articles about it.

    Marcia took in the news quietly & just nodded. I’m sure as the news sank in it was a whole different picture after I left. Craig said he’d appeal and that process will take about a year.

    Marcia said she wanted answers and changes and stuck it out to the end. Besides you here at I. M., it doesn’t seem that anybody even cares anymore once the majority of the families settled (or will now that the motion was granted).

    I don’t have the ruling scanned in yet but you can probably obtain it at the court web site. If not, I can post it around 11:00-12:00.

    Too many emotions right now. Glad you guys are here to commiserate this ruling. We know it will be a major disappointment (though not unexpected) for everybody here on I. M. too.

    Talk soon.

    Reply

    • Sorry—- it dose not surprise me though. The Investigation and the State covered their tracks well. While the fire was mismanaged the responsibility for the crew still was with their Supervisors.

      Reply

    • That is, indeed, very SAD news… but THANK YOU for the heads up.

      I don’t which is sadder…

      The idea that a Judge would actually decide that deaths in a workplace that an OSHA team had already determined was ‘off the charts’ dangerously mismanaged would not, at least, deserve a ‘day in court’ for the families…

      Or the fact that the “We shall never forget” people and supporting media outlets have decided it’s all just ‘old news’ already and not even worth reporting about.

      I am VERY curious to see the REASONS this one particular judge came up with for not at least allowing the matter to be argued in front of a jury.

      I also hope there will be an appeal.

      One judge’s opinion does not a “final story” make.

      Reply

    • Both Joy and I feel your hurt at that Judge’s action. We do know there are many people keeping up with how the legal system is handling this. It is sad that so many people that have evidence and could testify would but are afraid of repercussions , some on their job and others afraid of the legal system or what the official cronies might do to affect their lives. I think though a few good people will eventually come forth with the truth in time. It must bear on their consciences to be withholding that information that would help give closure to the loved ones of the GMHS crew.

      It would seem imperative that a FBI investigation go forth on the lose of so many fine young men. You have some fine investigative support with the many intelligent people concerned with finding the truth here on JD’s site. I certainly support you for holding out to attempt to get the facts of what really happened.

      Reply

        • here we have the yhf which made for a world wide devastated reaction of many who mourned yet just a few speak up— yes very deeply sad—that you do not see MUCH MORE writing on here or talking in the media who DO know more details—I think that has been the hard part for me in reflecting back…as well as the misperceptions of what IM comment is about—

          Reply

    • I am unable to add anything to what has already been stated here — except to say just how much it grieves me.

      It grieves me that the City of Prescott and the Prescott Fire Department had, in effect, a ‘get out of responsibility free card’ all along.

      It grieves me to see how a judge beholden to the State of Arizona can, in such a conspicuous manner, demonstrate lack of impartiality by not even allowing the matter into a courtroom.

      Yeah, they stole justice from you fair and square, didn’t they.

      Reply

      • Foul deeds will rise,
        Though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.

        – Hamlet (1.2.256), Hamlet, alone on the platform.

        It’s a very sad day, indeed… but it’s not over.

        Reply

        • The purpose of life is not to be happy. It is to be useful, to be honorable, to be compassionate, to have it make some difference that you have lived and lived well.” – Ralph Waldo Emerson

          so people who can help properly assess YHF— please SPEAK UP…BE USEFUL. BE HONORABLE. BE COMPASSIONATE! I guarantee by doing that; speaking up —you WILL make a DIFFERENCE.—INDEED

          Reply

  201. hey guys…,,, so what different would you guys have done on fri night….?? the fire was called in at 1740 and Shumate was an hour away and the local crews tried to get to it but cldnt and so the blm engine got there but cldnt get to it niether…s.,,,,, shumate had aa recon it and said low spread potential almost out so schumate said hed put resources up the next day
    so for fri night that first night what should shumate have done difrently??// or is ur criticqu onlly with saturday..,,,,

    Reply

    • Well… ONE of the things Shumate could/should have done Friday night is acknowledged the fact that this fire was just BARELY onto ‘State Land’ and just BARELY in his ‘ballpark’… which means it was what is called a ‘cross-border’ fire, jurisdictionally speaking. The Arizona cooperative fire suppression agreements say that if any party feels a fire that is on another responsible party’s land poses a threat to their area… they don’t need the other party’s permission to just go in and take care of it.

      THIS fire ( on Friday night ) was actually only a few hundred yards west of the City Limits of BOTH Peeples Valley AND Yarnell… each of which have their OWN fire departments.

      Local firefighters have already testified they WANTED to ( and felt they could ) just “go up there and take care of it” on Friday night … but Shumate got all “This is MY fire now so stand down” with them and refused to let them do what they WANTED to do.

      Here’s just one Mainstream Media article which reports that the local firefighters are SURE that Arizona Forestry employee Russ Shumate dropped the ball on Friday night…

      CBS5AZ
      Firefighter: We could have put out Yarnell Hill Fire on Day One
      Posted: Feb 26, 2014 9:20 PM CST Updated: Feb 25, 2015 9:05 PM CST
      By Morgan Loew

      http://www.kpho.com/story/24835120/firefighter-we-could-have-put-out-yarnell-hill-fire-on-day-one

      From the article…
      ——————————————————————————–
      PHOENIX (CBS5)

      A former Yarnell volunteer firefighter said it was possible to put out the deadliest wildfire in more than three decades, when it was still just a wisp of smoke. Meantime, CBS 5 Investigates found state dispatchers failed to call in some of the closest firefighters and equipment.

      “We could have driven up part of the way and walked the rest of the way with shovels and a bucket of water in our hands,” said LeRoy Anderson, who was a volunteer firefighter with the Yarnell Fire Department on June 28. That was the day a lightning strike started the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      “The fire, for basically the whole night, was the size of a Buick. It wasn’t very big at all,” said Anderson.
      ——————————————————————————–

      Reply

      • I agree with the Above but could add Local FF or the BLM could have gone to the Haines Ranch Parked and walked in a small crew
        of 4 FF before dark if they would have started at 2000 8 PM.
        Dark isn’t till almost 2200 in June.

        But for the sake of discussion IA on Saturday could have been more aggressive putting crews on the fire at Day light by 0800 Fly in or walk in all you got to do is look at a Map and there was two different access routes well market as roads and trails one was used by GM to access the fire the other was from Haines ranch up the 2 track 1.5 mile hike.
        at that time Shumate had 2– 20 man type 2 crews all night that could have been fed and at the Ranch at 0730 and actually hiked in 1– 20 man crew would have been sufficient. He also had a Helicopter available by or before 0800 Yet he did not start putting people on the fire till 1100. Local FF could have ridden 4×4 ATV’s to the Fire in 30 min. if they would have been requested. No excuse for the Laid back attitude.

        So my conclusion is the IA was way to laid back and could have been more aggressive. The Weather conditions and the Fuels along with drought conditions should have caused a more aggressive IA.

        Reply

        • Bob mentions that laid back attitude concerning what should have been an aggressive action toward any fire in the Yarnell area considering the extreme fire danger that we had June of 2013. The local firemen certainly knew it since they had posted signs on both ends of town notifying people of the extreme fire danger at that time. Any type fire under those conditions would have necessitated immediate and aggressive action to get it out. Once in that denser brush in the rocky area adjoining they would have known it would take off into a wild fire. Even a child would have known that. So indeed the laid back attitude was a part of what would destroy the lives of 19 men.

          Reply

        • hey bob.,,,, piss bags or what doya think the inmate crews should have done if 20 men hiked into there.? fire skunking in pretty steep rocks..,,,

          Reply

          • Actually building line Cold trail and work around the rocks cant count how many times I have done that or had crews do it.
            The Fire actually escaped in an open area on some what of a ridge no rocks just brush and grass. on the north side of the fire they had not built line which would have been the critical side where an escape could run a long ways which it did. 20 men on a 2 Acer fire should have had line around it in 4 hours easy say 8 chains 2 chains an hour or 132 FT per hour
            Much of it would also be rocks as line so really not bad steep yes but not bad to build line in.
            Split the crew start at the top and work both ways to the heal. Half and Half Burn and Unburned there was not a lot of heavy brush scrub and spotty with grass. a foot to 2 foot line to dirt depending on what you were working in. and cut any unburned brush next to the line. You know all that I am explaining it for the others here.
            Again I am old school I would have had at least 4 men on it that night and put a 20 man crew on it at day light. All of the factors say this fire as primed to burn the next afternoon if not contained.
            I am basing that on fuels topography weather and the drought high temps and low humidity. The fire did what any one with any fire Esperance would have predicted to do.

            Reply

            • I forgot to add I would have been there on the Ground as a IC4, 3 or a 2 Which I have been rated. Directing any air drops or Helicopter needs and the Fire. and NO I would not need a Ops or Div. it was a 2 Acer fire. by morning and could have been less if my 4 man crew was on it from 10 to 6 AM. we could have been in Partial mop up I believe.

              Reply

  202. I have tried my best to be an advocate for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on this thread. Not their families, friends or loved ones, and certainly not the wildland firefighting community as a whole. And my advocacy includes Eric Marsh, I don’t want to tear him down, I want to understand him. And if he were here with me today, I still believe he would say, “I know…I’m sorry” and I would give him a man hug and we would cry together.

    I also want to thank everyone who has offered me encouragement and support even if you don’t agree with much of what I say and especially how I say it sometimes, both here on this thread and in emails, because otherwise I would have quit a long time ago. I am just sorry Marti was not still here to read that at least one family member of the crew appreciates what all of us are trying to do here for them and their memory because that means the world to me, and I know it does for you as well.

    May God Bless America! And no, I am not going to try and take another sabbatical, I just wanted to throw those thoughts out there for whatever they are worth. And many thanks to John Dougherty for keeping this thread alive, because without it, we would only know what they want us to know, and you know what I think of them. Wow…I made it through that without using an expletive, maybe there is hope for me yet!

    Reply

    • True to form Gary–I still think Marsh was pressured to make the decision he did. Sadly there seemed to be no clear heads to refute that decision. Joy and I had a heated discussion there where they dropped off. All I can think is that it looked deceivingly easy and close and with temperatures above 100F they must have been dreaming of a cold beer or ice cream at the Ranch House. Willis said in his talk before the reporters that ordinary people couldn’t get through that type of brush but these types of wildland fire fighters could do it. Well hell it was so thick that bears had to wallow over that and that was something even a dyed in the wool super firefighter would have a hell of time doing unless he had a hide as thick as a bear. So Willis was right on the ordinary person part but wrong on anyone going through it with less than a bulldozer.

      Yet I am still stymied at why anyone would drop off in that basin considering what we were photographing of a fire gone wild and I think I am the hill billy that Donut was talking about/

      Reply

    • MY REPLY BELOW:
      Gary Olson says
      AUGUST 11, 2015 AT 12:14 AM
      I have tried my best to be an advocate for the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on this thread. Not their families, friends or loved ones, and certainly not the wildland firefighting community as a whole.
      I HAVE DONE MY BEST TO BE OPEN AND SHARE AS EVENTS UNFOLDED AND HOW THE HIKERS EYEWITNESS ACCOUNTS SINCE THE YHF HAS BEEN AND WHO WAS LED TO US- THE ONLY EVENTS I HAVE WITHHELD TO THIS DATE ARE SOME SENSITIVE AREAS FROM FIREFIGHTERS AND HOMEOWNERS AND LOVED ONES AND FRIENDS/FAMILY OF THE GMHS AS WELL AS THE NATIONS TOP INVESTIGATORS WHO USE PSYCHIC SPECIALIZATION AND ETHICAL PROTOCOL USED IN FEDERAL AND LAW ENFORCEMENT CASES HAVE ADDRESSED THE HIKERS AND ONE PERSON WHO IS INVESTIGATING THIS YHF DOES HAVE ALL THOSE SOUND RECORDINGS ON THEIR FILES NOT US. I DID NOT FEEL IT SHOULD BE IN OUR HANDS. OTHERWISE WE HAVE BEEN FREELY SHARING BECAUSE IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO PROPERLY ASSESS THIS FIRE AND I BELIEVE MANY MORE SHOULD SPEAK UP!

      And many thanks to John Dougherty for keeping this thread alive, because without it, we would only know what they want us to know, and you know what I think of them. AMEN!

      Reply

  203. I am beginning to be some what curious as to what happened at the Deployment site.
    Since there was not a through investigation of the site by Fire science people or the Shelter info
    what was the cause of the shelter destruction? If as we learned there was Gas byproducts in the lungs of one if not all GM crew then did the Gas exploding have a side affect on the deaths and total burning of the protective layer of the shelters? Did that increase the Temperatures at the site above the 600 Degree level? I am sure the temps were above that but how much did the Gas contribute to the heat? Or Direct Heat/Flame? We may never know but just more unanswered questions did any one even check the Fire shelters in a lab?
    .

    Reply

    • Just some added information.

      In the case of injury or death City, County, State and Federal Fire Fighters, Police and other employees that are injured, have an accident or Die on duty are required to have a toxolagy test and report. So those government entities would have a report on the GM Crew.
      I do not know if those can be released to the public. They may fall under the protection of personnel records.

      Reply

  204. Well, I do have some good news for everyone…I didn’t break my Jeep in the Oregon Dunes but I did give it a good work out.

    I also have some bad news for everyone because I am going to point out the obvious by writing about it even though all of us feel bad enough already about what happened to the GMIHC. I am going to do this because I think it is important that we do not gloss over the really bad things that happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire since the SAIT and the Arizona State Forestry Division have a lock on that aspect of this tragedy. I think all of us owe that to the men that died there.

    First…the back-story. A long time ago Bob said in effect that the GMIHC were not burned alive because the blast of superheated gases that preceded the flames would have collapsed their lungs and they would have been dead before the fire got to them…or something like that. In any case, it made me feel a little better because I believed that they had suffered less. I don’t believe that any more.

    Secondly…I learned a long time ago to never ask the question I do not want to know the answer to. If you haven’t learned that by now, try it…you will like the results and your life will be better for it. Unfortunately in this scenario, Mr. Turbyfill ask the question I did not want to know the answer to and then he got his son’s autopsy report. And then to make matters worse, WTKTT explained what it means to us. Travis had chemicals from gasoline throughout his body when he died, including in his brain.

    I think that means Travis was alive and breathing when the gasoline and other chemicals around him like those in their line packs were burning, exploding and melting. If that is true, that fact makes this horrific tragedy the very worst case…in a worst case scenario and something we should acknowledge out of respect to those who endured that suffering and almost unimaginable pain. If it is not true, I wish WTKTT or someone else would tell me it is not true so I can go back to feeling just a little bit better about what happened.

    Oh…and one more thing WTKTT, just like last time this came up, I can’t tell if you are being obtuse by suggesting that I was suggesting Eric Marsh’s actions on the Yarnell Hill Fire had anything to do whatsoever with either alcohol or marijuana because I don’t think that. Or am I being obtuse because all you are saying is that they did indeed have a complete and thorough autopsy that did reveal all foreign chemicals in their bodies?

    And since they did have complete autopsies, then that is really good news. Unfortunately (also going back to our previous discussion) that information was not paired with a competent and thorough death investigation by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office or any other investigative body which to a great extent renders the complete and through autopsy report useless except as general information.

    For example…since nobody did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire according to the SAIT who produced the SAIR, then the training of the GMIHC had was not lacking because they did not deploy their fire shelters away from their line packs, chainsaws, individual chainsaw gasoline containers or other toxic and highly flammable materials they may have been carrying such as back firing equipment.

    I am sorry…I thought I was actually going to get through one post without using an expletive but it doesn’t look like I am going to make it this time. The SAIT and the Arizona State Forestry Division are a bunch of fucking assholes and I hope they all burn in hell for their sins. Is that too harsh? I don’t think so.

    P.S., Do you remember when I drew an analogy with the lady who was texting and smashed into the back of my Jeep a few weeks ago? Here is another analogy…I am going to get a larger settlement from that accident because I pitched a fit with her insurance company than the Arizona State Forestry Division is offering to give the families of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots. And so I will close by saying once again, the SAIT and the Arizona State Forestry Division are a bunch of fucking assholes and I hope they all burn in hell for their sins.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing.

      Dale1 said, “and im not disrespecting u or gary,,,. u 2 have been hotshot sups for 30 years n got the chps and belts”

      So I have decided that I really do like Dale and he has earned the right in my book to disagree with me anytime about anything. There is nothing an old burned out hotshot likes more than the acknowledgment that he or she was relevant at one time and has therefore earned emeritus status.

      Reply

      • P.P.S., I thought we learned not to deploy our fire shelters around our line gear on another disaster fire I fought a really long time ago, the Ship Island Creek Fire in Idaho.

        Reply

        • Well I was hoping no one would say what I knew after the info WTKTT put out on the Autopsies ——-
          Ya Gary I caught it did not want to hear that but your right
          The Gas in the lungs says they survived in the tents for a short time and it would have been true hell before they died.
          DAM POTATO BAKERS—-Fight Fire So You Never Have To Use Them——-
          Now I will tell you something else I herd I did not want to believe over a year ago.

          They were keying their crew nets and Screaming. This coming again from some one listening to the Crew Freq. that told another/another and that got to me with the Word they died really hard and some herd it. It was forth hand to me so not
          able to prove nor do I want to. But remember all the Radios they had in the shelters with them.

          Dear God what a mess—Rest in Peace GM 19.

          Reply

          • Thank you Bob. I know that was hard for you to write and it is hard for us to read, but it is something we all need to acknowledge to truly honor the memory of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew and what they went through…due to the incompetence on the Mother Of All Mismanaged Fires (MOAMF).

            I didn’t make that up, someone else did in an email to me, but I think it is appropriate so I am going to start using it to describe what I think of the fire the SAIT thinks “nobody did anything wrong” on.

            Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 9, 2015 at 12:35 pm

      Gary…

      RE: Jeep
      Glad you didn’t break it… but ( more importantly )…. also glad you didn’t break YOURSELF.
      Jeeps are replaceable.

      RE: Mr. Turbyfill’s PUBLIC information.
      I don’t know the full forensics on that or WHAT the toxicology represents… but I do know this… even just this one piece of information is absolute proof how IMPERATIVE it is for anyone ( or any group ) attempting a deployment to make SURE and THROW THEIR PACKS as far away from the deployment site as possible. It’s not just that little part of the training that should ever be allowed to go in one ear and out the other. It is ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL that this be done… and Yarnell is now that absolute proof of that.

      Training… training… training… until it’s not even something you could possibly FORGET to do under any circumstances.

      RE: Was anyone drunk or high?
      I was not suggesting for one moment, regardless of your own report about Marsh’s past behavior(s), that YOU, yourself, had ever suggested any of the GM might have been drunk or high when they were making critical decisions that day.

      But I WAS ‘implying’ that we do not KNOW if there any evidence of that.
      Only people who have seen ALL of the toxicology testing know the facts there.

      Reply

      • No, I did not break myself either thank you. It sounds like we are on the same page, I just don’t want anyone to think I am suggesting Marsh was drunk or high on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I think his behavior on the Clear Creek Fire are an important indicator of his past decision making and respect for the rules.

        I still have the same opinion on the deployment I had several months ago, that no one else seemed to agree with. It should never have been attempted in the first place…period.

        And for that disastrous attempt, I still blame an overemphasis in the training on fire shelters by the wildland firefighting agencies (led by the USFS) over the past three decades in order to get firefighters to accept them. I believe the pendulum has now swung too far in that direction and that acceptance has now turned to over dependence.

        That is why I believe Mr. Turbyfill’s efforts, regardless of how noble and understandable they are, may lead to unintended consequences brought on by riskier behavior by those carrying what they believe are Super Fire Shelters that will save them, when the truth is, nothing would have saved the GMIHC on the Yarnell Hill Fire from themselves (meaning Marsh and Steed).

        I also still strongly believe more emphasis (maybe as opposed to no emphasis, I would like to see current training manuals and materials to confirm) should be placed on “how big is big enough?” and if the area you have to deploy a fire shelter is not survivable….RUN! And at least die on your feet moving away from the threat.

        Reply

        • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 10, 2015 at 9:19 am

          >> Gary Olson said…
          >>
          >> I still have the same opinion on the deployment I had several
          >> months ago, that no one else seemed to agree with. It should
          >> never have been attempted in the first place…period.

          FWIW… I don’t recall the specific postings you are referring to… but I’m SURE that I have always shared that opinion… and said so many times.

          I’m the one who caught a lot of shit for even daring to try and ‘figure out’ how much TIME might have transpired between the first moment they knew they were in deep shit and the first MAYDAY call. The SAIR wanted us to believe it was some ‘simultaneous moment’ of realization and the pressing of buttons on the radio circa 4:39 PM.

          Maybe nothing could have been further from the truth.

          The chainsaws being heard in the background right near Captain Jesse Steed when that first 4:39 PM MAYDAY call hit the

          A2G channel contradicts any such belief.

          SOME amount of time had ALREADY elapsed between when they knew they were in deep shit and then finally bothered to make that first A2G call captured by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Cam’.

          That ‘time’ could range anywhere from possibly 1 to 5 minutes, even.

          They might have even spent a fair amount of time MAKING the decision to deploy ( versus trying ANY other option ) and then FINDING the deployment site, THEN realizing it wasn’t big enough, THEN pulling ropes on saws and coordinating other emergency ‘work assignments’ before that transmit button ever got pressed by Jesse Steed at 4:39 PM.

          And whatever time was spent… it MIGHT have been time that would been put to use doing ‘something else’ with a better *chance* ( keyword: chance ) at survival… such as a standard ‘Drop packs and RUN like your LIFE now depends on it… because it DOES’.

          A better investigation ( and better initial testimony from any ONE ( or MORE ) persons who really were hearing the GM intra-crew radio traffic ) could have put better TIMES on the final events and actions that afternoon.

          As far as whether anyone who had access to the GM intra-crew radio channel at/around the time of the deployment ( At least FOUR people… Brendan McDonough and whoever the other THREE Blue Ridge Hotshots were who were driving the other 3 GM vehicles ) hearing anything following Marsh’s final “I’ll give you a call when we’re under the sh– shelters” A2G channel transmission…

          …it’s possible.

          Every time I watch the Russ Reason interview VIDEO, which took place right there at the driveway of the RHR just after the deployment and burnover… I can’t help but notice how DISTRAUGHT Brendan McDonough already is while he is being filmed standing right there at the back of Marty Cole’s extended cab white pickup, parked on the edge of the RHR parking lot.

          Of course he was already aware of the deployment by then.

          He said he was ( but only testified to hearing the same A2G transmit from Marsh that everyone else heard ).

          But his ‘dropped head’ posture and his other movements and demeanor while standing there at the back of Cole’s pickup almost seem to indicate he ALREADY knew it was WORSE than even the group of FFs in a huddle 20 feet away from him still trying to organize the ‘rescue effort’ in the RHR parking lot did.

          Indeed… there is moment captured in the video when the very tall and large Blue Ridge Hotshot with the close-shaved haircut ( still unidentified ) who was ‘with’ Brendan at the time at the back of Cole’s pickup actually appears to reach out to physically comfort Brendan as he almost appears to be banging his head on the back of Cole’s white pickup.

          Of course Brendan was ‘upset’. He heard Marsh’s A2G transmit along with everyone else that afternoon.

          But did he hear MORE by the time they reached the RHR parking lot after driving down from Shrine Road?

          By all accounts ( AND all the available evidence ) the absolute WORST MOMENTS would have been happening WHILE that

          Blue Ridge / Granite Mountain vehicle convoy was traveling south on Highway 89 and driving down TO the Ranch House Restaurant.

          That means anyone driving a Granite Mountain vehicle *MAY* have heard *EVERYTHING* there was to hear transpiring on the GM intra-net WHILE they were driving in that convoy to the RHR.

          I still say the aluminum foil of the shelters themselves would have been creating a classic ‘Faraday’ radio effect whereby any ‘transmits’ from inside the shelters would have been severely limited in range…

          …but the truth is… that convoy of vehicles was, at all times as it was heading south on Highway 89, getting CLOSER to Glen Ilah and the point of transmission(s) out at the deployment site.

          In other words… when the worst possible moments were taking place… that convoy of vehicles was driving TOWARDS the source of any possible additional GM intra-crew radio transmits… not AWAY from that source.

          So maybe… even with some ‘Faraday effect’ kicking in… the closer that vehicle convoy got to the Glen Ilah and RHR… the clearer any transmissions over the GM intra-net might have become.

          Reply

          • Well…it was a long time ago and I guess not everybody disagreed with me, like you. Most of the disagreement seemed to be based on the belief they didn’t have any choice, the fire was already on them, it was too steep to go back up hill and the ground behind them was too rocky etc., I have always strongly believe that if the area you have to deploy is not survivable…run.

            Do you remember the reference I made to the study called “How Big Is Big Enough?” If not, I will look it up again. But the math is not that hard to do when you have 60 foot flame lengths laying over perpendicular with the terrain like a blowtorch.

            Now…I fought fire back in the day when we threw the fire shelters that were given to us into the bushes and put our lunches or jackets in their pouches. And then when we were finally required to take them seriously (after the Battlement Creek Fire)…we never did and disdainfully referred to them as “turkey tents” as in they were to be used for basting and roasting dumb ass turkeys…not us.

            But I did both train and train others on them for real for 8 years and I do not remember ever seeing or discussing or even being aware even in general terms of how big of an area would actually be needed for a successful deployment. It just wasn’t on anybody’s radar screen other than “deploy in a clearing” type advice, but how big of a clearing based on the flame lengths was never mentioned.

            I would really like to know if that has changed and when did it change? And if it hasn’t changed…WHY THE FUCK HASN’T IT YOU STUPID SHITS? And consequently and more to the point of this discussion, I would like to know exactly how this was approached and if it was approached at all with the training on fire shelters the GMIHC had.

            FYI, I have never thought the attorneys representing the families have approached this correctly, they should be tearing apart the training records, manuals, and materials back where the sacred tiles were laid.

            AND I think they should be breaking down that big red wall in Prescott with some depositions with all of the former GMIHC who are keeping all of the secrets and thereby furthering endangering future wildland firefighters…shame, shame, shame.

            Reply

            • And for whatever it is worth category. My feelings and confidence in fire shelters never changed. I thought they were just something extra to carry to make my life harder and I believed they encourage risky behavior just like air bags encourage risky behavior with some people, it’s ok to go faster and to take more chances, in a worst case scenario, the air bag will save me.

              The entire concept of fire shelters was introduced into the equation in an after action fire review of the Loop Fire of 1966 that killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots who (as Bob has said many times on this thread) agreed to take an assignment building fire line in a CANYON ABOVE THE FIRE when other hotshot crew bosses had turned down the assignment as too risky.

              So somebody came up with the idea, “Hey, if our hotshot crews are stupid enough to build fire line in canyons above uncontrolled wildfires, why don’t we make them carry little foil bags they can climb into right before they get burned over?” Recommendation Approved.

              Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing. I strongly believe that if the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots had NOT been carrying fire shelters on the Yarnell Hill Fire…some if not all of them would be alive today.

                  And even if it would have only been ONE of them (talk to the old school smokejumper who waited out the South Canyon Fire in the rocks because he didn’t believe in fire shelters and wasn’t even carrying one that day) who could have found a place to escape the flames in the boulder field behind them…which one of you would turn down that deal?

                  Reply

        • No Eric was neither drunk nor high when we talked to him. If fact you would have thought he had all his faculties in excellent working order the morning of that Sunday.

          Reply

          • MY REPLY BELOW:

            Sonny says
            AUGUST 11, 2015 AT 3:26 PM

            No Eric was neither drunk nor high when we talked to him. If fact you would have thought he had all his faculties in excellent working order the morning of that Sunday.

            I AGREE. VERY CONDITIONED FOR THE TRAILS TOO. VERY IN SHAPE TO BE AS QUICK AND PROMPT AS HE WAS ON THAT HILL—UP AND DOWN IN A SWIFT FASHION.

            Reply

      • And as long as I am in the business of dispensing free advice this morning that is probably worth no more than what I am charging for it…I will give out some more.

        I know the families do not want to hear this but…the State of Arizona has never been the appropriate target for a lawsuit, yes, the Yarnell Hill Fire was the MOAMF but…it the mismanagement of the fire did not exceed (and it especially did not dramatically exceed) the spectrum of what can happen on a wildfire when Chaos is in charge.

        The State of Arizona did not create, train, manage or supervise the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew…the City of Prescott did. The City of Prescott provided contract laborers to one of their fires and they were the ones who were responsible for that crew meeting Type I specifications per their contract, which it did not. And while I can certainly understand why their dumb ass attorneys went for the deeper pockets, that was the wrong strategy from the very beginning.

        The way to hold those who are responsible for the deaths of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew accountable, is to in effect conduct a full internal investigation into how the GMIHC were trained, managed and supervised. And even more critical, you need to fully examine the philosophies, attitudes and overall strategies (which led to their tactics) that were instilled into the GMIHC through their managers…top down.

        Those are the reasons the young men who were on that crew are dead. They would all be alive today if Marsh and Steed would have followed standard operating procedure under those circumstances and hunkered down in the black and stayed safe while the fire storm passed.

        As I have repeatedly said…the Yarnell Hill Fire exponentially exceeded the expectation of the fire team because of their linear thinking…that just means the fire team is human…it was deeply flawed, but human.

        I am sorry to have to be the one to tell everyone this simple fact…but if you want a more capable commander than Roy Hall and most of the people he had around him that day, you are going to have to figure out how to make them in a laboratory.

        Roy Hall and the State of Arizona didn’t kill the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew…Darrell Willis and Eric Marsh killed the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew.

        Reply

        • I have been waiting to hear the unvarnished truth about what led to this tragedy for over two years now. That day has finally arrived.

          You are correct, Gary, that there are those who will not want to hear the truth because it hurts like hell. And, it is human nature to want to avoid pain. So, avoiding it at all costs is what they will do, and that will no doubt include attempting to silence the messenger. However, I am most grateful that aspect did not cause you to remain silent on this matter.

          Stay strong, Gary. I don’t know how many people are counting on you to do that, but I am one of them.

          Reply

          • While I have said mush the same over the past 2 years let me add—
            A resent visit with some old FF friends in Boise a GS 15 who was in charge of the Boise interagency Fire Training center for the BLM and another friend who was a GS 14 in charge of training for Region 4 out of Boise both told me straight up a week ago.
            The only one responsible for the CREWS DEATH was Their SUPERINTENDENT —ERIC MARSH and the assistant STEED.
            These are people who are still talking with and friends with the people involved in training at the Boise Interagency training center and well known in R-5 and R-4. The reason I am saying this is the word in house BLM and FS is well discussed even if no formal training has been put out.

            Reply

            • Right on, sounds like we are all on the same page.

              Yes, the fire was mismanaged, Chaos does that until control is wrested from it by a fully staffed and functioning fire team.

              And yes, there was poor initial attack by trying to save money by using a con crew etc., and a slow build up of resources…blame the Arizona State Legislature for how they fund state agencies.

              And yes, the fire team would have been able to get control better and faster if they hadn’t been restricted by state protocols to save money by bringing in a skeleton fire team and then trying to fill in critical positions randomly such as placing Eric Marsh in as Division A.

              But none of those issues killed the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. The culture of the Prescott Fire Department, their leadership and the organizational structure and philosophy (the 10 and the 18 are hillbilly) of the crew did that.

              Reply

              • And “Dear God…what a mess” pretty much sums what happened up in a really short and complete Executive Summary.

                Reply

                • Gary what did we do when the fire was turning into a Cluster Fuck.

                  We took care of our crew and did not follow the stupid directions that were leading to a real bad screw up.

                  Play dumb stall for time use every means possible to quote the 10 and 18 as reasons to say whoa up there lets stand by in a safe area and see what happens. No one ever got a bad rating for not jumping when the man on the white horse hollered CHARGE.
                  A very simple choice by GM Follow the Sheep off the cliff or stay in the safe BLACK.

                  Reply

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    Reply

  206. Reply to sonny post on August 3, 2015 at 4:52 pm

    >> sonny said…
    >>
    >> That was a reputable source that Joy talks about concerning Donutty.
    >> Due to possible job interference the person can not be named.
    >> However, Joy has already asked her permission but no reply yet..
    >> Simply she said Mr. Donutty has told here that he has made an official deposition.
    >> She said he was unhappy with the orders AFS gave them that day.
    >>
    >> I am not happy how he has handled this from the beginning and one wonders
    >> whether his deposition will be of any value.

    First and foremost… good to hear from you, Sonny, and I hope you are on your way to feeling better. Be sure to do what these heart doctors tell you. They tend to know their shit. Take my word on that.

    With regards to the ‘word on the street’ being that Brendan McDonough has, in fact, finally ( secretly? ) given an under-oath deposition…

    …with or without this ‘new’ information it would stand to reason that he has.

    It was even being ‘hinted’ that this was going to happen DURING that ‘settlement’ press conference.

    Here is the LAST thing attorney Patrick McGroder said at the very end of the entire ‘settlement’ press conference.

    He was finishing up an answer to a question about Brendan McDonough and the fact that the settlement was being announced without him having to give an under-oath deposition (yet)…

    ————————————————————————-
    +37:05
    ( Reporter 1 ): This is occurring WITHOUT the sworn testimony of Brendan McDonough… and… are you… are you content with that?

    ( Patrick McGroder ): …I am comfortable that to the extent there are FACTS out there that we may or may not know… or a spin on those facts that we may or may not know… that information WILL be forthcoming.

    Thank you all for coming.
    ————————————————————————-

    McGroder really did ’emphasize’ the ‘WILL’ in “WILL be forthcoming”, like he KNEW something WAS going to happen ( like an actual deposition from McDonough )… but he wasn’t ready to admit it in public.

    And DITTO for Deborah Pfingston when SHE had her turn at the podium during the same ‘settlement’ press conference.

    She used the phrase “WILL be coming” ( and emphasized the WILL part like McGroder did ) as if she was privy to some information that she was not going to ( or was not ALLOWED to ) share at that time.

    —————————————————————————
    ( Deborah Pfingston): Truth, transparency, accountability and change has been our mantra since the day it began.

    We STILL have work on the horizon.

    The lessons learned, the TRUTH about the death of our sons, husbands and fathers WILL be coming.
    —————————————————————————

    So I guess it really is possible that the family members being represented by Patrick McGroder over there in Federal Court may have been privy to information that Brendan McDonough WAS going to give a deposition… and that it would take place AFTER the second anniversary… and THAT is one of the reasons they went ahead and ‘accepted’ the settlement BEFORE the second anniversary and before the deposition actually took place.

    So let’s say for a moment that it is TRUE.

    That Brendan McDonough has, in fact, now ‘secretly’ given an under-oath deposition.

    Here would be my big CONCERN at this point…

    It would appear obvious that this ‘secretly’ conducted depostion simply happened under the same ‘mechanics’ over there in Federal Court surrounding the other THREE failed attempts to get him to testify.

    In other words… it was done in relation to those 12 cases being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder there in FEDERAL court. ( the ones that have supposedly been settled )… and that it was PART of the ‘settlement’ agreement itself that this deposition WOULD be taking place ( as both McGroder and Pfingston alluded to at the press conference ).

    Well… what about the OTHER ‘wrongful death’ case(s) still active over there in Maricopa County Superior Court and being handled by a DIFFERENT set of attorneys ( the law firm of Knapp and Roberts ) ?

    Did/Do THEY also have FULL ACCESS to a transcript of this (recent?) deposition from Brendan McDonough?

    The absolute TRAVESTY here would be as follows…

    The Judge who is currently deciding whether or not there is enough evidence for the Maricopa County Superior Court ‘wrongful death’ cases to proceed to trial has NOT been told about this McDonough deposition… or what McDonough has now TESTIFIED to… and that Judge turns around with his own Catch-22 and says…

    “I am granting Arizona Forestry’s request to dismiss these ‘wrongful death’ case here in Maricopa County Superior Court because there isn’t enough evidence of ‘wrongful death’… even though we all know that the only way to GET that evidence out of the people who refuse to talk is to have a trial.”.

    The perfect Catch-22.

    I’m not going to allow a trial to determine if there was enough evidence to justify a ‘wrongful death’ claim because there currently isn’t enough evidence to justify a ‘wrongful death’ claim.

    If there really is now a full under-oath deposition sitting in some file over in FEDERAL Court… with NEW information about what happened from Brendan McDonough…

    …then it is CRITICAL that the Judge over in Maricopa County Superor Court be made fully aware of this ‘new evidence’ BEFORE he makes his ruling on Arizona Forestry’s ‘motion to dismiss’ over in HIS Courtroom.

    If he makes a ruling WITHOUT being aware this deposition has probably already happened over in the FEDERAL Court… or what it contains… then if he decides to ‘dismiss’… it probably will NOT stand up under even a simple ‘appeal’.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      >> sonny reported…
      >>
      >> She said he (McDonough) was unhappy with the orders AFS gave them that day.

      If McDonough has now already testified ( under-oath ) that he actually knows of an ORDER coming from ‘Arizona Foresrty’ fire officials relating to what Granite Mountain was attempting to do that fateful day….

      …then THIS ALONE is something that the Judge who is (currently) deciding whether the still-active ‘wrongful death’ cases over in Maricopa County Superior Court MUST be made aware of BEFORE he rules on Arizona Forestry’s ‘motion to dismiss’ over there in HIS courtroom.

      Reply

      • Let me begin what I wanted to say for days now that I could not the other day due to time allotted.

        First—not related to what I want to say—

        There is an excessive heat warning for Aguila and it feels very muggy. Farmers hard at work in the watermelon fields here & children in the library asking me to buy commercial land in town and build them a place of snow or ice rink and candy store and popcorn store. All the farmers kids hang out to cool off at the Aguila library while parents work in this excessive heat from morning to night. We all felt cooler talking about our ice rink dream. I am a strong believer that kids are our future and it starts in how we adults educate them of this world from at home to public to helping realize the dreams they have for their own life.

        Now how does that relate to YHF. A lot. So number one, talking with the kids I realized how open I have been to let people share to me on the YHF from any and all areas even ones who mean harm for me. I am a July baby —the moon and the emotional sign of Cancer rule who I am— we are the nurturers/caretakers— the sign is gifted with food; making it and indeed eating it. we get unease when order is not there. Nature appeals to us versus possessions. We have a zest in teaching kids in the most unique way they understand…we are oversensitive..

        So with that being said..”””OVERSENSITIVE”””…I have to make a public statement.
        I was stretched thin over the past two years after the fire…because I was not just assisting Yarnell/Peeples Valley but I was involved with my town of Congress and Wickenburg/Aguila. and it was a lot of work. There is times I did not behave right on investigative media and it took me time to understand it and it took meeting this Christian woman that knows Donut to COMPREHEND it. You see, I lived a recluse way more than a social one so when I was jotting every detail on here, my hiking page and google photo pages I just jotted with no filter yet this past week I now see I have the CAPABILITY of a filter because I thought if I placed full name to lady who stated she knows Donut and gave us both sensitive information that has not been reported in media. I thought it would cause a domino reaction and I did not want to be that person. WELL than I began to awaken a part to me that I must ask for forgiveness…I did not have the strength or capability back then being so stretched everywhere…in reading Luke 17…I know…I reckon if my bible was dusty meant my life is rusty so anyways I asked God for forgiveness but I also am putting out there asking for forgiveness from a comment and behavior I had on here that caused an affect/effect and not sure I can place the actual name here but that is number one yet also asking for forgiveness from Elizabeth Nowicki and Holly Neill and even for the misunderstanding with one of the mothers of the loved ones because Ephesians 4:32 “Be kind to one another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another”

        This is a genuine apology, I mean it from the bottom of my heart, I have thought about how wrong I was, and I hope you will accept my apology.

        It should NEVER happen again.

        Reply

      • WTKT Does that mean on the catch 22 that the judge involved should be informed that there is evidence that Donut has given deposition? If Donut is speaking privately to friends that he has done so and has said that he was very unhappy with AFS orders for the day, would that Judge be required to at least query the sources then perhaps require Donut to answer whether a deposition had been given?

        It seems these lower courts go along with the cronies they are so close to just as I saw in the case of Amanda Marsh VS Joy Collura. Joy has a perfect record, never did a damn thing to agitate Amanda that could cause a restraining order against Joy, yet Judge Arthur allowed the restraining order to go through. Amanda wanted to restrict Joy’s right to legally hike in the area where it is beyond the bounds of state restriction as well as put a gag order and keep her away from meetings. Because Willis helped her along with his testimony you could see it was a pat on the back to these people. So we see the legal system at least on the lower courts works wonders among a society of friends.

        Now I see that Amanda and others seem to be dictating the memorial idea. Yet if they were to be honest and actually go to Yarnell and query people there, they would find that the majority do not really want a memorial as they have planned it out. Most Yarnellites would turn it down altogether except for perhaps some simple thing and those I have talked to think the idea of training wild land firefighters in that very terrain is an excellent alternative to spending bundles of money on what was a real screw up both in the death of those 18 and the destruction of nearly half the town residences and a follow up of elderly dying at a rate that is not natural. Fifty plus deaths in a population of 640 people since the fire is not often mentioned but you can bet it was indeed a part of the screw up that can be added to the bumbled work that the fire managers did in Yarnell. And to add to it we ought to be angered that anyone who had anything to do with that fire take any kind of an award save perhaps the guy that saved Donut and I would guess he likely did risk his life to get that inexperienced fire spotter out of a certain death situation. Who would have left Donut down there in that brush in the first place when he should have been in the black long before that fire reversed. There after all were plenty of authorities who knew where he was and how dangerous his position was.

        Reply

        • REPLY BELOW IN CAPS:

          Sonny says

          August 4, 2015 at 11:48 am

          WTKT Does that mean on the catch 22 that the judge involved should be informed that there is evidence that Donut has given deposition? I KNOW IN PERSON YOU ARE PROBABLY THINKING ITS ME SONNY WHO SHOULD REACH JUDGE BUT I WILL NOT—IT HAS SUCH A DOMINO EFFECT THIS TOPIC AND I JUST FEEL THAT PERSON SHOULD CONTACT THE JUDGE OR DONUT NOT ME OR EVEN YOU— If Donut is speaking privately to friends that he has done so and has said that he was very unhappy HER EXACT WORDS WERE THAT DONUT DISAGREED WITH ARIZONA FORESTRY ORDERS AND I ASKED TO CLARIFY/DEFINE AND THAT HE DID INDEED TESTIFY. with AFS orders for the day, would that Judge be required to at least query the sources then perhaps require Donut to answer whether a deposition had been given? SHOULDN’T ALL LAWYERS BE PRIVVY TO THIS INFORMATION NOT JUST CERTAIN LOCALS TO YAVAPAI COUNTY? MAYBE THE LAWYERS DO KNOW AND WE THE WORLD ARE THE ONES SHUT OUT—

          ASKING YOU TO NEVER WRITE ON AREAS IN REGARDS TO ME ON CERTAIN TOPIC- APPRECIATE THAT- Joy has a perfect record, INDEED I DID

          I HAVE NO CLUE WHAT JUDGES DETERMINE FOR SUCH BUT IN MUCH READINGS I DO KNOW UNJUSTS ARE DONE IN ARIZONA—SEE:
          http://sedonaeye.com/yavapai-county-corruption-alleged

          h t t p://www.examiner.c o m /article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
          h ttp s://www.youtube.c o m/watch?v=K_qqkjQH2IM

          YOUR HUMBLE OPINION ON CERTAIN TOPIC IS NOT COMPLIMENTARY TO MY VIEW—

          those I have talked to think the idea of training wild land firefighters in that very terrain is an excellent alternative I HEARD THE SAME

          Reply

          • The Judge Has the Right to ask ASF Lawyers to release all documents
            including all Depositions. As do the Lawyers for the Families.
            Its called Discovery of all information one side can not keep it from the other.

            Reply

            • That’s correct… and even though there have already been ‘oral arguments’ over in the Maricopa Country Superior Court ‘wrongful death’ case(s) regarding Arizona Forestry’s requested “Motion to Dismiss”… the cases are still in the active DISCOVERY phase.

              That means that even though the Judge has heard oral arguments on the ‘Dismissal’ motion and he is on-record as now making a decision about that… if there is ANY ‘new evidence’ that has cropped up ( such as an under-oath deposition from key witness Brendan McDonough )… then the lawyers for Arizona Forestry are SUPPOSED to notify the Judge about it IMMEDIATELY.

              If they Arizona Forestry lawyers withhold that ‘evidence’ until AFTER the Judge has finished making his decision on the ‘Dismissal’ motion ( even though they had it WHILE he was still deciding on their ‘motion’ )…

              …that’s some pretty serious ( devious ) shit.

              I suppose the key here is whether or not the lawyers for the plaintiffs are even aware that any ‘new’ depositions have taken place ( IF they have taken place ).

              As far as we know… lawyers for the firm “Knapp and Roberts” handling those ‘wrongful death’ suits over in Maricopa County Superior Court were ‘privy’ to what was happening with the ‘global mediation’ over in Federal court… and were ( supposedly ) even invited to participate in those ‘meetings’.

              But that doesn’t mean they would have been fully aware of an actual deposition being held featuring Brendan McDonough.

              That has (supposedly) happened AFTER the ‘settlement’ was announced… so there’s no telling whether lawyers for “Knapp and Roberts” were still fully ‘in the loop’, or not.

              If such a deposition really did take place recently… then OF COURSE the lawyers for “Knapp and Roberts” have every right to know about it and to see the transcript of the deposition even if they weren’t invited to be there when it happened.

              Reply

              • Sorry.. some bad phrasing in my last posting.

                I said…

                “That means that even though the Judge has heard oral arguments on the ‘Dismissal’ motion and he is on-record as now making a decision about that.”

                I made it sound like the Judge is ‘on-record’ as having ALREADY made a decision. He has NOT.

                He is simply on-record as having now heard the oral arguments and he is currently taking the matter “under consideration”.

                He still has a little over 50 days to actually render his decision about whether to let the Yarnell ‘wrongful deaths’ suits on HIS court calendar proceed to trial, or not.

                That’s why it’s so important that if there really IS ‘new’ evidence in the case… he needs to know about it BEFORE he renders a decision with regards to Arizona Forestry’s “Motion to Dismiss” over in his courtroom.

                Reply

        • Reply to Sonny post on August 4, 2015 at 11:48 am

          >> Sonny said…
          >>
          >> WTKT Does that mean on the catch 22 that the judge involved
          >> should be informed that there is evidence that Donut has given
          >> deposition?

          Yes. That is EXACTLY what that means.

          And it really isn’t even a SHOULD.

          Legally speaking… it’s a MUST BE INFORMED.

          That’s because ( among other reasons ) the DEFENDANTS in BOTH sets of ‘wrongful death’ cases being handled in both FEDERAL and Maricopa County Superior Court are the SAME DEFENDANTS, and the incident at issue is the SAME INCIDENT ( Deaths at the Yarnell Hill Fire ).

          1) Arizona State Forestry, ( specifically ).
          2) The State of Arizona, ( generally ).

          If a Brendan McDonough under-oath deposition has finally taken place… and the State of Arizona and/or Arizona Forestry has full access to that information… then they are REQUIRED to share that ‘new information’ as part of the ‘rules of discovery for ANY/ALL of these ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits in which they are the named defendants.

          In other words… you can’t WITHHOLD EVIDENCE that might be in your possession ( especially during the DISCOVERY phase ) from one set of ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits pertaining to the SAME INCIDENT just because SOME of those ‘wrongful death’ cases might be under another Judge’s jurisdiction.

          It’s complicated… but it’s basically all part of the ‘rules of discovery’ that attorneys are BOUND to obey when a criminal or a civil court action is still in the DISCOVERY phase.

          And make no mistake… even though Arizona Forestry has asked the Judge over in Maricopa County Superior Court to ‘dismiss’ the ‘wrongful death’ cases over there on his court calendar… ALL of those ‘cases’ are, in fact, legally in the DISCOVERY PHASE whereby all attorneys are required by law to share ALL the evidence they have with each other.

          If there really is an effort being made to keep this under-oath deposition that *might* have already taken place with McDonough a ‘secret’… and an actual effort being made to keep the ‘new evidence’ that came out of the FEDERAL court proceedings AWAY from the attorneys and the Judges handling the other still-active cases over in Maricopa County Superior Court…

          …then whoever is involved with that needs to ask themselves the question…

          “Is this really worth losing my career?”

          If this under-oath deposition really has already taken place… then whatever McDonough had to say could NOT possibly be more relevant to ALL of the ‘wrongful death’ cases, either settled or still-active, and could not possibly be more important to know to the Judge who is being asked to ‘dimisss’ the remaining cases over in Maricopa County Superior Court.

          If that Judge decides to dismiss those remaining cases for technical reasons that have nothing to do with the amount of ‘evidence’ available… then that’s one thing. That decision may or may not survive APPEAL.

          But if that Judge decides to dismiss those remaining cases based on some opinion of HIS that there “hasn’t been enough evidence presented to warrant the claim”… that’s something else altogether.

          Because if it’s the LATTER… and it is THEN discovered that this Judge wasn’t even AWARE that Brendan McDonough has already testified under-oath before he said there ‘wasn’t enough evidence’…

          …the shit is gonna hit the fan.

          >> Sonny also said…
          >>
          >> If Donut is speaking privately to friends that he has done
          >> so and has said that he was very unhappy with AFS orders
          >> for the day, would that Judge be required to at least query
          >> the sources then perhaps require Donut to answer whether a
          >> deposition had been given?

          Well… FIRST ( and foremost )… that ‘Judge’ would have to be AWARE that an under-oath deposition from one of the KEY witnesses in these ‘wrongful death’ cases he is presiding over has actually taken place.

          He is SUPPOSED to be informed if something crucial like this happens because it’s the SAME charges and the SAME defendants in HIS courtroom as it is over in the Federal courtroom.

          Once he is aware it has happened… and he realizes that the ‘defendants’ in the cases HE is handling are possibly breaking the ‘rules of discovery’ and NOT sharing that same information over in his court room… he can simply DEMAND ( with a court order ) that the ‘defendants’ in HIS cases ( State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry ) enter that SAME TRANSCRIPT from the deposition taken over in Federal Court into the court record for the cases HE is presiding over.

          If they don’t… he can slap them with ‘contempt of court’ charges and the attorneys involved could do some jail time of their own.

          >> Sonny also wrote…
          >>
          >> It seems these lower courts go along with the cronies they
          >> are so close to just as I saw in the case of Amanda
          >> Marsh VS Joy Collura. Joy has a perfect record,
          >> never did a damn thing to agitate Amanda that could cause
          >> a restraining order against Joy, yet Judge Arthur allowed
          >> the restraining order to go through.
          >>
          >> Amanda wanted to restrict Joy’s right to legally hike in the
          >> area where it is beyond the bounds of state restriction as
          >> well as put a gag order and keep her away from meetings.
          >> Because Willis helped her along with his testimony you
          >> could see it was a pat on the back to these people. So we
          >> see the legal system at least on the lower courts works
          >> wonders among a society of friends.

          It is perfectly obvious to everyone with a brain that all of that was total bullshit and monkey business and people ( Amanda Marsh, Darrell Willis, etc. ) just ABUSING the court system to satisfy their own personal agenda(s).

          If Amanda Marsh simply just USED the Court System to get what SHE wanted, and was willing to lie to get what she wanted… then she is, herself, a criminal.

          If her entire purpose was to ‘restrict someone’s hiking’… but she cooked up some bullshit ‘Harassment’ story just to get in front of a Judge… she has, herself, broken the law.

          Whatever it was that Darrell Willis contributed to the ‘testimony’ should have NEVER been allowed unless it was things he, himself, had personally heard, witnessed, or experienced.

          Anything else ( like just reporting to the Judge what he THINKS other people wanted him to )… was total HEARSAY and should have never been admissible testimony at that hearing.

          But the moment the Judge screwed up and ALLOWED Willis’ ‘hearsay’ to become part of the testimony… if Darrell Willis also ‘perjured’ himself in front of that Judge whilst delivering all this ‘hearsay’ testimony… then HE is also a willing participant in an illegal act.

          All of the official FORMS that a plaintiff must fill out in order to even FILE either a ‘Protective Order’ and/or an ‘Injunction for Harassment’ in the State of Arizona are HERE on the official Arizona Courts webite…

          https://www.azcourts.gov/Portals/33/DV/AllPOForms06032013REV.pdf

          In Arizona… it’s basically the SAME FORM being used for BOTH of the following…

          1) Petition for an Order of Protection ( PO )
          2) Petition for an Injunction Against Harassment

          BOTH petitions to the court require the same information and there is just a CHECKBOX at the top to indicate whether you are actually requesting a ‘Protective Order’ against someone… or whether it doesn’t rise to THAT level and you are only requesting an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’.

          But regardless of which ‘checkbox’ you actually check.. the MIDDLE of the form is where you have to say WHY you believe you are entitled to file this petition for either a ‘Protective Order’ or an ‘Injunction Against Harassment’.

          And your reasons better be TRUE… or you are committing a CRIME.

          At the bottom of BOTH of the forms for either a ‘Protective Order’ or for an ‘Injunction for Harassment’, at the spot where the plaintiff has to SIGN the form and SWEAR that what they are saying about another person is TRUE… you find THIS…

          ———————————————————-
          Under penalty of perjury, I swear or affirm the above statements are true
          to the best of my knowledge, and I request an Order / Injunction granting
          relief as allowed by law.

          Signed: ( Plaintiff’s signature goes here )
          ———————————————————–

          If someone signs a request for either a PO or an Injunction against harassment and they KNOW some/all of the allegations or facts they are reporting are FALSE…

          …then they have just committed at least TWO crimes.

          1) The crime of filing a FALSE Affidavit.
          2) The crime of PERJURY.

          BOTH of those carry their own FINES and/or JAIL TIME.

          I’d still love to see the ACTUAL forms that Amanda Marsh filled out, signed, and submitted to the court(s)… and what she was ACTUALLY ‘swearing’ to.

          Unless the Judge issued a specific order for this entire proceeding to be ‘sealed’… then those forms should be PUBLIC RECORD(S).

          >> Sonny also said…
          >>
          >> Now I see that Amanda and others seem to be dictating
          >> the memorial idea.

          Well… since this Arizona PUBLIC Yarnell Memorial Site Board continues to break Arizona Law themselves and NOT publish full and complete transcripts of their PUBLIC meetings… we don’t really know how much any one person ( or small group of persons ) is ‘influencing’ the design plans.

          There is a subset of folks designated as the ‘Design Subcommittee’ and the rest of the Board is, in fact, going to rely on their decision making…

          …but even in the ‘minutes’ that have been released… not ONCE do we see any ‘minutes’ for the actual meetings of this smaller subcommittee ( as we are also supposed to, according to law ).

          >> Sonny also said…
          >>
          >> Yet if they were to be honest and actually go to Yarnell and
          >> query people there, they would find that the majority do not
          >> really want a memorial as they have planned it out.

          It’s already perfectly obvious that this Arizona State sponsored Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board does not give one hootn’ crap what the people of Yarnell think or want.

          >> Sonny also said…
          >>
          >> Most Yarnellites would turn it down altogether except for
          >> perhaps some simple thing and those I have talked to think
          >> the idea of training wild land firefighters in that very terrain
          >> is an excellent alternative to spending bundles of money
          >> on what was a real screw up both in the death of those 18
          >> and the destruction of nearly half the town residences and a
          >> follow up of elderly dying at a rate that is not natural.
          >> Fifty plus deaths in a population of 640 people since the fire
          >> is not often mentioned but you can bet it was indeed a part
          >> of the screw up that can be added to the bumbled work that
          >> the fire managers did in Yarnell.

          You have ALWAYS been right about the ammonia content of that slurry and the harmful effects it can have… and how there are even laws already in place that say that slurry has to be kept away from fish and water supplies.

          If there was ever a time when a legal action should take place to finally reveal those 4 percent SECRET ingredients of the commonly used retardant slurry… this would be it.

          I will bet a dollar to a donut ( excuse the pun… didn’t mean McDonough ) that some of those ‘4 percent’ SECRET ingredients are known carcinogens.

          An investigation could STILL happen in this area.

          If the property damage lawsuits survive appeal and become fully active cases headed for trial again… this could ALL be part of those trial(s).

          Reply

        • without invading another’s privacy I just want to point out I am Joy A. Collura and Sonny is Sonny— we are two different individuals with two different ways of life and views and when I publicly apologized I was confused why he came back with the comment he said but he clarified he was answering Gary O. and WWTKTT’s topic on Yarnell/GMHS Memorial topic but his comment laid under MY apology public so it felt to me it washed out my sincerity. However he read the investigative page yesterday and then my comment than just hit REPLY so please note that because OVERSENSITIVE me did not like the organization of placement of his comment. I AM trying to just live life and not bring up old history than there is Sonny who feels the need to write on it—not me. emphasizing that—NOT ME…I won’t talk with anyone anywhere on topic even told EN to answer a question of hers to wait until 2016. My brother just got diagnosed with cancer—brain tumors in exact areas as mine…be interesting how he handles his; surgery or not—chemo or not…he is a commercial steel high profile architect and work is his life and “fun”…his wild life is different than my own—his is not the nature kind. I texted my other brother to get scanned too. Our family has diminished to cancer and as a kid in Toms River NJ back in the 60/70/80/90’s I always told people I boiled my water always and they asked me why and I would say I taste too much chemicals in my water. They would say how does a kid know that shit. I always been extra sensitive in a lot of ways but learned from my Sicilian great grandpa Benjamin the boil water trick…so again…Sonny is Sonny…I won’t restrict him but I am not a part to what he writes…that is his reply to Gary and WWTKTT-

          Reply

          • I just am waiting on Sonny…have no clue what he is typing away just hope it is not on me and just the fire…I don’t want to have to go reading it and reply in CAPS…sun-drained…but meanwhile I googled Toms River and see if there was any possible information on chemical in water information and indeed there was…????
            http://www.salon.com/2013/03/12/how_toms_river_cracked_a_cancer_cluster/
            ht tp ://www.nytimes.c o m/2001/12/16/nyregion/what-s-wrong-in-toms-river.html

            so than it does bring up a good point that WWTKTT said and Sonny…maybe a further investigation IS needed on the slurry drop.
            What happened that weekend has affected the lives as well as lives lost so yes maybe it is important to look further into

            Reply

            • http://cen.acs.org/articles/91/i18/Chemical-Troubles-Toms-River.html

              In the 1980s and ’90s, a startlingly large number of children in Toms River were stricken with cancer, especially leukemia and tumors of the brain and nervous system.

              ————————————–
              okay so this would explain why most my childhood friends died so young. I always felt if you met ME you would die soon because it was how my life was being shown…I would meet people than soon they would be diagnosed than die…except my dear friend Samantha who cannot be replaced that was robbed her life too early another way… I guess a collection of my life history is why I say I cannot pack up and walk away from the yhf and I will be there always…I just do not yet have the full comprehension of discernment and I reckon it is because I want this fire properly assessed and that is why some have been like I wanted to email Joy or hike with her but she aired it on her pages or here and that I don’t like…well, I am not yet at the full stage to allow in people using proper discernment modern tools and remain old fashion and share as it comes in who God leads to me asking for two or more to pray on this page and as well as the people who are guided to me because God is merciful and forgiving and I strongly believe since day one delays and missing elements included that God’s Will will be done also that He will give us the wisdom that is needed to do what is right that includes Donut because how he did not properly get the information out very early on- sad…also giving it all to God in prayer and know the blessings with peace and comfort in Jesus Christ will come…

              Reply

    • Subject: Yarnell Hill Fire Update Aug 2015 – Plaintiffs’ Appellate Brief
      > Date: Wed, 5 Aug 2015 00:51:34 +0000
      >
      > Hi-
      >
      > Attached is a copy of our appeal filed yesterday in the Arizona Court of Appeals.  The State will file their response brief within 60 days.  We will then file our reply brief.  The Court of Appeals will set a date for oral argument, which will most likely be early 2016.  I will let you know as soon as I have the date.  I encourage you to attend. 
      >
      > Thank you for your cooperation. 
      >
      > Regards, 
      >
      >
      > Craig A. Knapp
      > KNAPP & ROBERTS
      > 8777 North Gainey Center Drive, Suite 165
      > Scottsdale, Arizona 85258
      > (480) 991-7677 
      > (800) 541-4477
      > email: [email protected]
      > website: knappandroberts.com

      Reply

      • Couple of questions here…

        WHAT is this?

        Is this acknowledging a continuation of the appeal process for the ‘Property
        Damage’ suits… or does this mean that the Judge in the Maricopa County Court ‘wrongful death’ cases has already reached a decision and he is trying to DISMISS those cases?

        The lawfirm of “Knapp and Roberts” is still handling BOTH the ‘Property Damage’ and the ‘wrongful death’ cases there in Maricopa County Court.

        WHO was this sent to?

        It obviously appears to have been SENT by the lawfirm of “Knapp and Roberts”… but who were they sending this email TO?

        ** RE: THE TIME/DATE ON THE EMAIL

        This email was actually sent TODAY ( August 4 ) and not on August 5 as the date says. What seems to have happened there is that because the time offset is showing as +0000 that means the time is actually just straight Greenwich Mean Time.

        According to the Server handling this email… it was 51 minutes past Midnight on August 4 so that’s why the date shows as August 5 ( tomorrow ).

        Depending on the timezone where it was sent ( assume Arizona since it says it was from Knapp and Roberts in Phoenix )… then this email was ACTUALLY sent around 5 or 6 PM Phoenix time TODAY, August 4, 2015.

        Reply

        • Followup…

          A quick ‘Google’ search seems to have answered my own questions above.

          An article appeared TODAY ( August 4, 2015 ) regarding the “Knapp and Roberts” law firm continuing their APPEAL of the ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits ( and NOT filing any kind of appeal in the ‘wrongful death’ suits with they are also handling ).

          The Prescott Daily Courier
          Article Title: Yarnell property owners appeal earlier dismissal of lawsuit Claim negligence by Arizona Forestry
          Published: 8/4/2015 6:02:00 AM
          http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=148318

          From the article…
          ———————————————————————–
          PRESCOTT – The Arizona State Forestry Division’s defense of Yarnell was “negligent, contradictory, and self-defeating,” according to an appeal filed this week by attorneys for more than 160 owners of property lost in the 2013 Yarnell Hill wildfire.

          That “spasmodic” defense of the town, in turn, contributed to the loss of 127 homes during the 2013 Yarnell Hill wildfire, states the 65-page appeal of the April 2015 decision by a Maricopa County Superior Court judge to dismiss the case.

          The lawsuit is now officially in the hands of the Arizona Court of Appeals, after law firm Knapp & Roberts filed its appeal on Monday, Aug. 3.

          The appeal maintains that the state left the town largely “defenseless” on that Sunday afternoon in June 2013, when not only was much of Yarnell destroyed, but 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died in their efforts to fight the wildfire.
          ———————————————————————–

          So it would appear that the copy of the email up above was related to this continuing ‘Property Damage’ appeal… and is NOT any indication that the Judge has issued any kind of decision in the ‘wrongful death’ cases also being handled by the lawfirm “Knapp and Roberts”.

          Reply

          • Also… it’s still pretty amazing to me that ‘Cindy Barks’ of the Daily Courier would take the time to report on this continuing “Knapp and Roberts” appeal of the “Property Damage” lawsuits…

            …but not mention a WORD that the SAME LAWFIRM is also still handling fully-active Yarnell-related ‘wrongful death’ suits in the SAME Court and with the SAME Judge ( Richard Gama ) that decided to dismiss the ‘Property Damage’ suits.

            It’s all related… but this reporter didn’t even bother to ‘report’ that.

            Unbelievable.

            Reply

    • WTKTT Thanks for that explanation of things concerning the deposition of Donut. We are thankful for your interpretations of the law to help us understand how things should be. Of course we are working with a group of cronies who make up a narrative of how they want things to be, not as they actually unfolded. That of course started from Day l of the Yarnell fire and was accented by Mr. Willis’s explanation on tape soon after the death of the 19 GMHS crew and they hoped would end with the SAIR report and by gag ordering the Blue Ridge fellows and anyone else whose testimony might reveal what many in management did not want revealed. As far as Donut was concerned the bug in his ear kept him quiet for a time but it appears he has now testified under oath, although much delayed. The peson, and I was there with Joy, that said this to be a fact about Donut is a very rerpuatable older lady who works in a place that demands complete honesty. Joy checked her out as computers now give so much about people and she has an impeccable history.

      I had gladly made a 15 mile hike to get photos for you and it was a pleasure knowing the work you do toward resolving the real reasons behind their unnecessary deaths. I had the fortune to hike with my youngest son so that made it even a better hike. However, I found my self hard put to do the hikes as before, therefore did go to the VA for a checkup. As many Yarnellites after the fire, I too have increasingly suffered with shortness of breath. The doctors determined that I needed some work involving the heart before addressing that issue. One more trip to the VA with another operation and I should be good as new. As you indicated those doctors involving hearts know their onions.

      Since Joy has been such a contributor to this work of uncovering the truth, I ought to tell you about her. We have been hiking partners for over four years now, most of it 24-7 and doing things from hiking and prospecting to living in a cave for six months to living out of doors in camps where we could be out of sight of the humdrum cookie cutter world and its groomed people. She has been known as the desert walker and when a deputy Thompson found her beside me at my former abode north of Dolan Springs, He declared what the hell you doing with a woman so young when you need a walker at your age. I replied she is my walker and known as the Desert Walker.

      There is so much to say about Joy. She had done things from saving a bob cat trapped in a cement tank to pulling out thorns from the eye of a rattlesnake to removing a full blown tick that was blinding a jack rabbit to having humming birds and little ground squirrels on her hands. And I am talking about wild animals that have a natural affinity to her special qualities.
      I would not believe it had I not witnessed these things myself, But it is more than that, she goes out of her way to help when she sees some down on their luck. If it is a poor person she hands them money and I know this because it is sometimes my money, food or other that she gives. But I agree that we do need to help so I never complain. I suppose I look at her as a replacement to the son I lost in August, 1999. He was so much like that and when Joy gave that alcoholic Mexican manl $3 the other day it brought those memories back. You see the guy is homeless and lives behind that Aguila gas station under a mesquite tree next the railroad tracks. That tree is his shelter and some old blankets on the ground are his bed. You see, I had been giving him a drink when I stopped in and we usually had to go behind the station to hunt him up under his shade tree. His situation and age put him there, an injury and when you can’t afford a doctor, then your pain medicine has to be what you can get at the cooler inside that gas station. So Joy’s alternative is after all more thoughtful–he can get his brand of choice.

      But then we are off to the desert, fortunate to have a one eyed tennesee walker and three burros to greet us and a golden retriever tagging along that loves to swim in their watering tank. You see Joy loves those animals as if they were her kids.

      I look at what I know about her and am amazed at the tragedies of life she has fared. As a child she had to watch horrific events—documented facts. Her fear for this serial killer is genuine after all this killer dismembered people.

      Yet for all these tragic events while on the streets as a child and sometimes eating from dumpsters behind Arbees, she has maintained her sanity and kindness to the downtrodden.

      You can see now some of the reasons she and I want to see closure and the truth evolve out of the 19 involved. This should have never taken place and its only legacy to us is the need to change the way wild land fighters are trained and fires are fought and where safety becomes the of utmost importance. It is obvious that poor training, poor management and putting lives before safety for no good reason were why those 19 young lives were snuffed out. Statues to commemorate how poorly everyone preformed in defending the lives of those they commanded would not be in order. Instead, honesty of what really happened and how future fire fighters can learn for to keep themselves and those they command alive is in order. That manzanita trap is already grown back to a fair degree and in a few short years will be back to where it was when Steed and Marsh tried to follow the hopes of other bosses to buck the brush and beat the deadly fire coming their way. Indeed it would be the best training ground any new wild land firefighter could train in and the memories of those men and their brave but unwise attempt to beat the brush cost their lives along with 17 other young lives under their watch.

      Reply

      • REPLY IN CAPS…I PRAY NOTHING HERE ON ME THOUGH…TOO SUN DRAINED…

        Sonny says

        August 5, 2015 at 11:57 am

        WTKTT Thanks for that explanation of things concerning the deposition of Donut. YES, THANK YOU

        We are thankful for your interpretations of the law to help us understand how things should be. I AGREE

        Of course we are working with a group of cronies who make up a narrative of how they want things to be, not as they actually unfolded. I AM SEEING THAT MISSING ELEMENTS IS MORE THE CASE FROM MY POINT OF VIEW VS CRONY WAYS—YET THERE IS INDEED CLICHES—

        That of course started from Day l of the Yarnell fire and was accented by Mr. Willis’s explanation on tape soon after the death of the 19 GMHS crew and they hoped would end with the SAIR report and by gag ordering the Blue Ridge fellows and anyone else whose testimony might reveal what many in management did not want revealed. I DO NOT AGREE—I THINK THE WHOLE SYSTEM WAS TO CREATE A NARRATIVE TO NOT HAVE ANY DETAILS THAT COULD LEAD TO LITIGATIONS OR BLAME BUT IT IS NOT FAIR TO THE ONES AFFECTED BY THE YHF NOT TO COMPREHEND THE JIST OF A PROPER TIME STAMP OF THE YHF…I MEAN 19 DEAD AND ALOT OF LOSSES…GOOD TO SEE YOU HAVE NOT WROTE ON ME…THE WAY YOU LOOKED TODAY I THOUGHT FOR SURE YOU WERE—

        As far as Donut was concerned the bug in his ear kept him quiet for a time but it appears he has now testified under oath, although much delayed. The peson, and I was there with Joy, that said this to be a fact about Donut is a very rerpuatable older lady who works in a place that demands complete honesty. Joy checked her out as computers now give so much about people and she has an impeccable history. I DID NOT CHECK HER OUT BUT CONFIRM SHE KNOWS DONUT IN THE MANNER STATED WAS ALL—

        I had gladly made a 15 mile hike to get photos for you and it was a pleasure knowing the work you do toward resolving the real reasons behind their unnecessary deaths. I had the fortune to hike with my youngest son so that made it even a better hike. However, I found my self hard put to do the hikes as before, therefore did go to the VA for a checkup. As many Yarnellites after the fire, I too have increasingly suffered with shortness of breath. The doctors determined that I needed some work involving the heart before addressing that issue. One more trip to the VA with another operation and I should be good as new. As you indicated those doctors involving hearts know their onions.I TEND TO DISAGREE …I BELIEVE THAT A SMALL AMOUNT OF DOCTORS DO—I DO NOT LIKE ALOT OF MODERN MEDICINE AND DOCTORS—I WOULD NEVER PUT FOREIGN MATERIAL IN ME…JUST NOT MY MAKEUP—

        Since Joy has been such a contributor to this work of uncovering the truth, I ought to tell you about her.OH NO—SOFT GIGGLES— We have been hiking partners for over four years now, 8-23-11 SO ALMOST FOUR HUH—WOW, TIME FLIES…THANK YOU FOR BEING IN MY LIFE TEX (SONNY)—YOU HAVE BEEN THE BEST TOP NOTCH PERSON TO BE ON THE TRAILS WITH AND IN THE CAVES AND JUST ANYWHERE—I GIVE YOU A HARD TIME SOME TIMES…OR MY VOICE CAN GET UNDER YA SKIN…BUT I ALWAYS MEANT WELL…I MEAN SOME OF OUR SHARING HAS BEEN DOWN RIGHT HILARIOUS TO HAVE A MOUNTAIN MAN A COOKIE CUTTER LADY BE ON THE TRAILS—I CAN SEE WHY SOME GET INTRIGUED AND SOME SAY ??? WHAT THE HELL—most of it 24-7 YEP IT HAS BEEN IN THE PAST—CURRENT WE BOTH ARE DEALING WITH OUR OWN HEALTH JOURNEY TOGETHER AND AS WELL APART. YET WE WILL ALWAYS JUST BE—HARD TO EXPLAIN US— and doing things from hiking and prospecting to living in a cave for six months to living out of doors in camps where we could be out of sight of the humdrum cookie cutter world and its groomed peopleWHY DO YOU FEEL THE NEED TO WRITE THE COOKIE CUTTER WORLD? I AM LIVING MY DREAM AND THAT ENTAILS THE DESERT DREAM AS WELL AS COOKIE CUTTER WORLD…SONNY HOWEVER IS NEVER GOING TO CONFORM FOR NOONE TO BE A COOKIE CUTTER MAN NOR EVEN A HOME KIND OF PERSON—HE LOVES THAT DESERT WAY TOO MUCH…HE GOES OUT BAREFOOT NAKED AS A JAYBIRD LIKE AN OLD IRISH WARRIOR SCARING OFF THE COYOTES WHEN THEY COME UP TO OUR CAMP—-I WILL NEVER FORGET THE FIRST TIME WEST OF THE GRAND CANYON—DIALING MY HUSBAND ASKING WHAT JUST HAPPENED/WHO DOES THAT AS MY HUSBAND SAYS PROBABLY HE IS DRUNK, I HOPE—AND THEN SONNY USES THE SAME TACTIC TO SCARE OFF THIEVING BANDITS—-. She has been known as the desert walker YEPand when a deputy Thompson found her beside me at my former abode north of Dolan Springs, He declared what the hell you doing with a woman so youngNO, DEPUTY THOMPSON WAS MORE FLOORED ON TOPIC OF ME BEING MARRIED NOT MY AGE—HE WAS BEWILDERED WHEN HE MET MY HUSBAND AND SAID YOU SHOULD BE HOME WITH THAT GOOD LOOKING FELLA VERSUS THIS OLD FELLA—- when you need a walker at your age. I replied she is my walker and known as the Desert Walker.

        There is so much to say about Joy.NOT REALLY— She had done things from saving a bob cat trapped in a cement tank to pulling out thorns from the eye of a rattlesnake to removing a full blown tick that was blinding a jack rabbit to having humming birds and little ground squirrels on her hands. And I am talking about wild animals that have a natural affinity to her special qualities.ITS ON YOUTUBE SOMEWHERE—NY RESIDENT/PT CONGRESS RESIDENT TERRY SOLOMAN MAY STILL HAVE IT ON THERE—
        I would not believe it had I not witnessed these things myself,ME TOO—IT IS AN AMAZING TERRIFIC GIFT— But it is more than that, she goes out of her way to help when she sees some down on their luck.ALWAYS BEEN THAT WAY SINCE A TOT If it is a poor person she hands them money and I know this because it is sometimes my money, food or other that she gives. SORRY SONNY—I AM NOT WORKING AND WARREN GAVE ME TWO DOLLARS AND I HAD A DOLLAR ON ME SO YES I GAVE THE SPANISH GUY LEO THREE BUT THAT TIME IT WAS WARREN’S MONEY THAN I TOOK JOHN’S MONEY TO PAY FOR WARREN’S $4.50 ICE/SODA BUT YES I HAVE USED YOUR MONIES TO HELP OVER TIME AND ESPECIALLY FOR WAY TOO MANY ON THIS YHF AFTERMATH…ALOT OF YOUR FUNDS WENT TO THAT CAUSE…But I agree that we do need to help so I never complain. NO YOU REALLY DON’T—MAYBE BECAUSE YOU THINK OF YOUR OWN SON TED AND HOW HIS WAYS PARALLEL MINE—

        I suppose I look at her as a replacement to the son I lost in August, 1999. He was so much like that and when Joy gave that alcoholic Mexican manl $3 the other day it brought those memories back.TED WAS THAT WAY TOO

        You see the guy is homeless and lives behind that Aguila gas station under a mesquite tree next the railroad tracks. That tree is his shelter and some old blankets on the ground are his bed. You see, I had been giving him a drink when I stopped in and we usually had to go behind the station to hunt him up under his shade tree. WE JUST CHECK IN ON HIM—IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO—MAKE SURE HE IS OK—His situation and age put him there, an injury and when you can’t afford a doctor, then your pain medicine has to be what you can get at the cooler inside that gas station. So Joy’s alternative is after all more thoughtful–he can get his brand of choice. HEE HEE

        But then we are off to the desert, fortunate to have a one eyed tennesee walkerI MISS THAT HORSE ALREADY—I LOVE FAITH—SHE IS A TALKER— and three burrosTHEY ARE TOO TALKERS–LOVE THEM—BUSY REBUILDING THE MICROBURST DESTRUCTION FOR THE PROPERTY THAT THE 90 Y.O. STAYS ON—PICO IS THE MOST FRIENDLIEST BURRO EVER— to greet us and a golden retriever tagging along that loves to swim in their watering tank. You see Joy loves those animals as if they were her kids. ONE DAY MOST COOKIE CUTTER PEOPLE WOULD NEVER OPEN THE GATE TO FREEDOM FOR THE BURROS AND HORSES BUT WE DID AND THEY RUN SO FARRRR AND COME RIGHT ON BACK—AMAZING TO WATCH THEM RUN AND EXERCISE…BUT TERRIFIC THEY COME RIGHT BACK—I TELL THEM EVEN YOU COME BACK YOU HERE—HAVE A HANDFUL OF OATS AWAITING OR A CARROT OR 3—OR PLENTY OF FEED

        I look at what I know about her and am amazed at the tragedies of life she has fared. ME TOOAs a child she had to watch horrific eventsUGH—YES—BUT NOT MEANT FOR PUBLIC—BUT I AM WORKING ON THAT BECAUSE YOUR COUNSELOR SAID IT IS HEALTHY TO BEGIN TO SHARE ON IT VERSUS KEEPING IT INSIDE——documented facts. Her fear for this serial killer is genuine after all this killer dismembered people. THAT IS TRUE—IT IS NOT SO MUCH FEAR BUT PURE AWARENESS OF THIS PERSON’S CAPABILITIES AND HOW DANGEROUS THEY ARE

        Yet for all these tragic events while on the streets as a child and sometimes eating from dumpsters behind Arbees,cAMELBACK AND 24 STREET AREA HAD SOME GREAT AREAS TO GET FREE QUALITY FOOD AND FARMERS MARKET STUFF TOO—BEST PLACE TO BE A CITY HOMELESS FOLK she has maintained her sanity and kindness to the downtrodden.WE ALL SHOULD…

        You can see now some of the reasons she and I want to see closure and the truth evolve out of the 19 involved.IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO This should have never taken place EXACTLY
        and its only legacy to us is the need to change the way wild land fighters are trained and fires are fought and where safety becomes the of utmost importanceEXACTLY
        . It is obvious that poor training, poor management and putting lives before safety for no good reason were why those 19 young lives were snuffed out. Statues to commemorate how poorly everyone preformed in defending the lives of those they commanded would not be in order.IF IT MAKES LOVED ONES FEEL BETTER—LET ‘EM— Instead, honesty of what really happened and how future fire fighters can learn for to keep themselves and those they command alive is in order. I AGREE

        That manzanita trap is already grown back to a fair degree and in a few short years will be back to where it was THAN THE STATUES WILL SHOW THE GROWTH SURROUNDING THEM AND WHAT THEY FACED THAT DAY…THAT IS WHAT THE STATUES MEAN TO ME—when Steed and Marsh tried to follow the hopes of other bosses to buck the brush and beat the deadly fire coming their way. Indeed it would be the best training ground any new wild land firefighter could train in and the memories of those men and their brave but unwise attempt to beat the brush cost their lives along with 17 other young lives under their watch.EXACTLY

        Reply

  207. dale1 says

    August 3, 2015 at 2:50 pm

    bob POwers sorry i been out. justin Smith and nate pek r ic type 4. nat was boots on the hill on saturday morning justin later,,.!! a timeline for yhf came out on another blog n june.,,,,.. justin did a lot a IA. hes with perryville or was. justin knows what an inmate crew can n cant do,,,…., and im not disrespecting u or gary,,,. u 2 have been hotshot sups for 30 years n got the chps and belts

    Reply

    THIS WAS FOUND BELOW…bringing it up as it answers you Bob Powers

    Reply

    • Reply to Dale1 from down below….

      I understand that the Type 4 IC was never on the Fire the only other possible Type 4 was the Helitack Foreman who was there but to my knowledge was not Supervising the fire on the ground and Higher ratings. Again neither were assigned IC on the fire I don’t believe the 2 Helitack were constructing any line but I could have missed that.
      their were a total of 12 people on the Mountain 2 were Helitack 10 were a crew boss and 9 Inmates. As I remember there were no Fire Fighters on the Mountain until the Helicopter started ferrying them around 1100. Ill have to go back to look up names but for now will
      go with yours. I do know that the Assigned IC flew the fire then went back to Yarnell and the Helicopter started flying in the 12 to the Fire Again 2 were helitack. None were assigned as IC on the Fire. Although I am sure the Crew Boss and the Helitack Foreman had IA background
      WTKTT has kept most of this in a file and can jump in with more detail we covered this quite extensively a few chapters back..
      No disrespect considered just trying to get some facts straight. The type 2 Inmate crew said they could not walk in on the 28 then Half were flown in leaving half and another full crew in Yarnell. That just kind of sounded strange I worked with a lot of Inmate crews in California and they were always in good shape worked and hiked in the Mountains a lot. They fought fires every summer so something did not sound right with these 2 crews and we have never been able to find out much about them.

      Reply

      • I posted Andrew Williams contact information long ago and he can confirm anny question there on lewis prison crew and abou the hike in.

        Reply

      • Follow up—- Justin Smith was the Assigned Type 4 IC. He never was on the ground at the Fire. The Crew Boss ASF inmate crew was in charge of the IA and line construction.
        Nate Peck–Was Helitack with 1 Crew they mostly brought the Crew in and handled sling loads. My checking dose not show they did any line work. or were responsible for any thing other than the Helicopter. They may have helped when the fire broke lose and assisted in trying to stop it.

        Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 4, 2015 at 6:29 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> Follow up—- Justin Smith was the Assigned Type 4 IC.

          He was actually just an ICT4(t) Trainee that the REAL Yarnell ICT4 Russ Shumate had requested the night before. Here is an entry from Friday night that appears in the actual DISPATCH log(s).

          At exactly 7:19 PM on Friday night…Shumate asked for Justin Smith to show up Saturday morning as an ICT4(t) Trainee

          06/28/2013 19:19:21 From: RUSS To: KM
          ( YARNELL ) INACTIVE, NOT MUCH OF A THREAT. NOT TAKING ACTION TONIGHT. GIVE THE LEWIS CREW THAT WE’RE GOING TO HAVE THEM IN PRESCOTT AT 0800. AT MY OFFICE UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE.
          ORDER JUSTIN SMITH AS AN ICT4(T)

          Eleven minutes later we see ‘KM’ informing ‘Justin’ and we also see Justin’s response that he will accept the ‘Trainee’ assignment…

          06/28/2013 19:30:43 From: KM To: JUSTIN
          RUSS WOULD LIKE YOU AT HIS OFFICE AT 0800 TO GO OUT AS AN ICT4(T). I’LL EMAIL YOUR RESOURCE ORDER TONIGHT// OK

          At 7:48 AM Saturday morning… We see ‘CH’ conversing with IC Shumate and asking for confirmation from Shumate that HE will be the ‘IC’ and that Justin Smith will be his ‘Trainee’. Shumate confirms this.

          06/29/2013 07:48:35 From: CH To: 1-4
          I HAVE YOUR SPOT WEATHER FORCAST AND I HAVE A COUPLE QUESTIONS FOR YOU// I’LL HAVE YOU READ THE FORCAST TO JUSTIN HERE IN A MIN.// ARE YOU GOING TO BE THE IC FOR THIS FIRE AND JUSTIN FOR THE IC TRAINEE// YES I WILL BE IC AND JUSTIN AS IC TRAINEE// WHAT TIME DO YOU WANT THE ARMORY AND FOR HOW MANY?// PLAN FOR 1900 AND FOR ABOUT 40 COULD BE MORE OR LESS

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> He ( Justin ) never was on the ground at the Fire.

          Actually… he ( Justin ) was.

          It was the REAL ICT4 Russ Shumate who never set one foot up there OR ever actually did his own RECON using the N14HX Helicopter. Shumate just sat at the Yarnell Fire Station all day trying to coordinate things from there.

          When things started to get out of control late Saturday afternoon, Shumate sent Justin up there, but NOT in any kind of ‘ICT4’ capacity. Shumate wanted the ‘new’ command structure up there to be the Moki Helitack guy Nate Peck as OPS and Justin Smith as DIVS.

          Nate Peck himself has testified he actually REFUSED this assignment and just kept being DIVS up there. He didn’t see the need for him to become OPS and just wanted to ( in his own words ) “keep the process simple”.

          From Nate Peck’s SAIT interview notes…
          ———————————————————–
          IC trainee show up, wants him ( Nate) to cover Ops.
          Nate said no, keep process simple.
          ———————————————————–

          So if Nate Peck refused the OPS assignment and just kept functioning as DIVS, it’s unclear WHO ( or WHAT ) ICT4(t) Trainee Justin Smith considered himself to be up there on the fire late Saturday afternoon. OPS? DIVS?

          >> Bob Powers…
          >>
          >> The Crew Boss ASF inmate crew was in charge
          >> of the IA and line construction.

          We still don’t really know WHO the heck was “calling the shots” up there all of Saturday afternoon. We find out later in the day that Moki Helitack Nate Peck considered himself to be DIVS up there when he basically refused Shumate’s request for a ‘reorg’ on the command structure… so it’s hard to say whether Nate Peck or Lewis CRWB Jake Guadiana was actually “calling the shots” up there where the rubber met the road.

          The ACTUAL ‘work’ the small contingent of Lewis Crew plus Moki Helitack Nate Peck were ACTUALLY doing all afternoon for those 4-5 hours leading up to the time the fire jumped the two track is still pretty much a total mystery.

          Were they really doing anything at all during those 4-5 hours?

          The only thing we know for sure is that during those 4-5 hours working that almost-dead small fire area… they did NOT remove the unburned fuel from along that eastern flank by the two-track…

          …because that is where it ‘flared up’ later and JUMPED the two-track.

          >> Bob Powers also wrote…
          >>
          >> Nate Peck–Was Helitack with 1 Crew they mostly brought
          >> the Crew in and handled sling loads. My checking dose
          >> not show they did any line work. or were responsible for
          >> any thing other than the Helicopter. They may have helped
          >> when the fire broke lose and assisted in trying to stop it.

          See above. It is still totally unclear what Nate Peck was ACTUALLY doing ( or what leadership role he was playing ) in the 4-5 hours they had to try and contain that almost-dead fire… and before it ‘jumped the two-track’.

          It is also then totally unclear who was doing what when some additional Moki Helitack and additional Lewis Crew were finally sent up there.

          Once the fire actually jumped the two-track… it appears that no one was really doing anything at all except guiding in some last-minute SEAT drops before sunset.

          The evidence record says that they were out of chain saw gas, and even though many additional crew AND bladder bags were ‘sent up’… they didn’t receive any more gas to even be using the saws up there and so they just sort of ‘gave up’ trying to do anything at all other than try and secure the anchor point for the next day’s work.

          That information comes from Nate Peck himself…

          Once again… from Nate Peck’s SAIT interview notes…
          ———————————————————–
          Right before dark, called IC and asked for intent.

          He was asked for his order for resources as intent.

          By this pt, fire is moving, SEAT dropped missed still need
          to tie in but no saw gas and not going to happen.

          Focus now is to secure the anchor point for the next morning’s work.

          I have felt that things were poor at this time and little faith in IC and process.

          Stayed on the clock with crew all night.

          I have struggled with the IC and process
          ——————————————————-

          Reply

          • Thanks WTKTT

            I got messed up with Smith and Shumate.

            Shumate was the IC4. Smith was a Trainee I still don’t remember we found out much about Peck and what he was doing the chain of command seems very high for a 10 man crew a Strike Team Leaded would have been sufficient with a Type 4 IC Trainee which is basically what a IC 4 is qualified at under ICS. More chiefs than Indians on this fire. For crying out load OPS and DIV on a 2 Acer Fire.

            Shumate again the IC4 was never on the fire and his trainee should have been in his back pocket as the saying goes. He is the trainer you learn from him and how he runs the fire.

            Reply

            • FIRST Dale1 Apologies

              Smith was on the fire as a Trainee IC4.
              Shumate was the Assigned IC4 who never had Boots on the Ground.
              Some what confusing.
              Also the Helitack Foreman was there as a DIV but we never could determine if he actually was doing any supervision on the ground.

              I still have a lot of concerns about the IA and how it was handled.

              Reply

  208. Dale1 said, “if i Were going to say who did anything wrong it would be that a hotshot supe needs to be trained long on a hotshot crew b4 leading his own crew”

    This is a real GEM Dale threw out there and I don’t want it to go by unnoticed since this is a drum I have been beating on now for almost 2 years. One thing I said way back when went something like this. “Maybe the guy who just happened to be in place already running your fuels abatement crew was not the best choice to run your hotshot crew just because he went out as a fill in pick up a few times over the years” And now I can even add, “especially if that same person demonstrated such an extreme lack of good judgment he got the entire crew sent home because he was in an assignment as an acting squad boss in charge of a significant portion of his crew drinking alcohol and smoking dope on the fire line which included the saw team.”

    So…yes, this is one area Dale and I are in complete agreement.

    Reply

    • Reply to Gary Olson post on August 2, 2015 at 7:13 pm

      >> Gary Olson said…
      >>
      >> And now I can even add, “especially if that same person demonstrated
      >> such an extreme lack of good judgment he got the entire crew sent home
      >> because he was in an assignment as an acting squad boss in charge of
      >> a significant portion of his crew drinking alcohol and smoking dope on the
      >> fire line which included the saw team.”

      I was actually just about to post something related to this that I thought I had already posted but just recently realized it never made it to the forum.

      Back in the last Chapter ( XV / 15 ) when this ‘incident’ involving Eric Marsh was being discussed… there was some back-and-forth regarding the autopsy reports for all the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots and whether or not they included full toxicology panels, including standard drug testing.

      The ASSUMPTION was that standard toxicology/drug tests HAD been done, since even the Medical Examiner’s Office said that is STANDARD procedure… and there is also evidence that some ‘extended’ toxicology was also performed that actually took a few months to complete.

      Well… since that discussion… I came across PROOF that those ‘extended’ toxicology tests WERE performed for ALL of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and they tested for just about everything drug and/or chemical under the sun.

      The PROOF actually comes from Mr. David Turbyfill, the father of deceased Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.

      He, himself, made an extended effort to obtain ALL of these ‘toxicology’ test results for his own son, Travis. It took him 15 months to finally ‘win’ and get his own copies… but he succeeded.

      And then he TALKED about those toxicology results on a PUBLIC Facebook page of his.

      David Turbyfill has, for a long time now, had a special Facebook page called “Yarnell Fire Realities”.

      It is here…

      https://www.facebook.com/YarnellFireRealities

      He referenced the ‘autopsy’ and ‘toxicology’ report(s) he finally received copies of several times on this Facebook page so I’ll just take those one by one.

      Here is the Facebook Comment where David Turbyfill first says he finally received the autopsy results he had been trying for 15 months to obtain.

      It’s his ‘list’ item number 9 in this comment he posted in December, 2014…
      ———————————————————————————
      Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
      Posted December 27, 2014 ·

      Goodbye 2014 Hello 2015

      As we close in on saying goodbye to 2014 I thought I would share a few thoughts. I’ve been pretty quiet on here the past

      several months,

      1. Found and tested, and developed a demonstration video of a proposed materials for fire shelter.
      2. Met with Congressional Representative Paul Gosar, concerning fire shelters.
      3. Submitted materials to the US Forest Service, for initial testing.
      4. I’ve been to multiple national memorials,
      5. We have seen the first year anniversary of losing the Granite Mountain Crew.
      6. US Forest Service has asked for additional materials, for third-party testing, we were informed that our materials would be sample #12, my lucky number.
      7. I’m delighted to think that there is at least some possibility of changes coming to the existing fire shelter, that there are at least 11 good ideas for these changes.
      8. Absolutely disappointed by the actions of our community leaders, and their decision to disband the Wildland division in Prescott.
      9. After more than 15 months of desperately trying to find the mechanics of what happened to my son, I had finally received a copy of his autopsy.

      So as we go into 2015 and look ahead to the 2015 fire season, I would hope to have an open dialogue with the wildland fire community, and invite all to comment so if you are former or active fire or know somebody who is please invite them to this page.

      Well wishes
      David Turbyfill
      ————————————————————————-

      The next DAY ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill mentions some of the CONTENT of the TOXICOLOGY results and the concentrations of certain compounds and elements that were found in blood and tissue samples via the ‘extended’ testing…

      ————————————————————————-
      Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
      Posted December 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm

      …additionally carbon monoxide only being one. Travis’s autopsy showed only a small presence of CO, but found these, Benzene, Toluene and Xylene was present in his lungs, bloodstream, and brain tissue.
      ————————————————————————-

      Then again, on that same day ( December 28, 2014 ), Mr. Turbyfill was continuing an exchange on his Facebook page with someone named ‘Amy Rucker’… and he again mentions things that he has ‘learned’ from the autopsy and toxicology results HE now has.

      And in this next exchange, he makes a rather startling claim.

      He appears to be saying that the autopsy and toxicology results for Travis indicate that some of the fatal inhalations were from things the Granite Mountain Hotshots were carrying WITH them in their packs.

      Remember that it has been proven with photographic evidence that MANY of the Granite Mountain Hotshots did NOT ‘throw their packs clear of the deployment area’ as they were (supposedly) trained to do. Indeed… some of them deployed right NEXT to their packs.

      ————————————————–
      Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
      Posted December 28, 2014

      So to Amy Rucker… I see that you work as a Public Information Specialist at United States Wildland Fire Aviation, before you write a comment you should check into the issue before making broad statements such as yours.

      So to your point about Fire Shelter

      Survivability.
      The Issue has not been beat to death. The whole point of a Fire Shelter is to create a LOWER TEMPERATURE

      SPACE for the firefighter.
      Since this has been such a “Sensitve” subject for most concerned, none of the parties that should have the Autopises, do NOT have them. So consequently I seem to be the only one concerned that does.

      I know exactly the toxicins Travis inhaled and how conscious Travis was when he died.

      Travis perished because of the Items that he and the Crew carried with them.

      Had he and the others had a better shelter that could with stand Direct Thermal Contact the out come may have been different.

      In closing I leave you with this…..a quote from 2004…

      “Safety is a core value of the firefighting community, and it is non-negotiable.
      To continue to use these contract large airtankers when no mechanism exists to guarantee their airworthiness presents an unacceptable level of risk to the aviators, the firefighters on the ground and the communities we serve.”

      2004 USFS Chief Dale Bosworth
      —————————————————————–

      That’s pretty much the last mention Mr. Turbyfill makes on his PUBLIC Facebook page of what is in the toxicology report(s) he received.

      Do any of these statements he makes on his PUBLIC Facebook page PROVE that any of the deceased Hotshots were either intoxicated and/or high on something when they died?

      Nope.

      But what Mr. Turbyfill’s comments DO PROVE is that VERY extensive toxicology testing WAS performed for each of the deceased… and it would not be believable to think that standard drug testing was not part of that testing and those results ARE in the ‘toxicology’ reports.

      It would also not be believable to think that any attorney representing any plaintiff in a ‘wrongful death’ action would also NOT have had full access to all autopsy and toxicology reports that exist.

      Seeing ALL of those reports would be at the very heart of any ‘wrongful death’ action and would be one of the FIRST sets of documents the attorneys would obtain on behalf of the plaintiffs.

      Reply

      • Followup….

        Regarding this comment from above by Mr. Turbyfill…

        ————————————-
        Comment by Yarnell Fire Realities ( David Turbyfill )
        Posted December 28, 2014 at 5:58 pm

        …additionally carbon monoxide only being one. Travis’s autopsy showed only a small presence of CO, but found these, Benzene, Toluene and Xylene was present in his lungs, bloodstream, and brain tissue.
        ————————————————————————-

        Benzene, Toluene and Xylene are ALL specifically petroleum based.

        In other words… Travis Turbyfill’s toxicology reports indicate his lungs, blood and tissues were permeated with GASOLINE when he died.

        Reply

  209. With separate wildfires currently burning in the mountains to the south, the east, and also to the north of where I presently live, I decided to read Chapter 1 of Gary Olson’s book Betrayed By Our Fire Gods (available at http://www.ourfiregods.com).

    I recommend this chapter to anyone who has not already read it. In fact,with the way this year’s fire season is progressing, I would encourage it.

    I have a feeling that once you do happen to read this opening chapter about the Battlement Creek Fire, you will see why I’m inclined to recommend taking a closer look at this particular fire and the people who experienced it.

    Reply

    • Thank you very much, your comments mean a great deal to me. Although it was a long time ago, I think there are lessons that can be learned from the Battlement Creek Fire that still apply today.

      In fact, the factor most responsible for the deaths of the Mormon Lake Hotshots, I believe was the factor most responsible for the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. And that factor is hubris. Especially the hubris of the crew boss’.

      Hubris (/ˈhjuːbrɪs/, also hybris, from ancient Greek ὕβρις) means extreme pride or self-confidence. When it offends the gods of ancient Greece, it is usually punished. The adjectival form of the noun hubris is “hubristic”.

      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hubris

      Hubris is usually perceived as a characteristic of an individual rather than a group, although the group the offender belongs to may suffer consequences from the wrongful act. Hubris often indicates a loss of contact with reality and an overestimation of one’s own competence, accomplishments or capabilities, especially when the person exhibiting it is in a position of power.

      I believe hubris is the number one killer of hotshots.

      Reply

      • Thank YOU for documenting the events of Battlement Creek. And, for making it possible for me (and others) to have a mental picture of what it was like where you were that day.

        You wrote how it pulls you back at random, back to the steep slope of Battlement Mesa. I can imagine just how much it does.

        Reply

      • Sonny came by the house…he looks spent . be away a few days fixing a microburst mess…pauseuuntil I let person

        Reply

    • Bob Powers-

      I understand you want to know who Dale1 is—
      but for me not needed as the house wife/desert walker/eyewitness to YHF and last civilian hiker to see the men,

      I am about to answer his question below on Donut that my family thinks let others worry about that investigation because you are now aware there are people looking to harm and hurt you Joy. I replied I need to “go back” to the mentality of 2013/2014 and as its shared to me—“share it here” or on my hiking page w w w . zazzle . c o m /congress_arizona* or on the google photo areas (just copy paste first link and fix https and com area to get to link—only allowed to post one link)
      h t t p s ://plus.google.c om/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5911726150683632913?authkey=CMSBuJL2pZXeOg
      https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5922175655744920065

      this Yarnell Fire needs EVERY tiny detail.
      Recently when Sonny was in ICU for his heart surgery—he aggravated the shit out of me the way he speaks about another human being who has been nothing but kind to him but one moment when Sonny kept intruding his work sleep time; intruded it five times in ten days. Otherwise always pleasant and good to Sonny. Now, when I got frustrated I left his room and went to work on this puzzle in the IN PATIENT rec room. Five people said on this 2,000 piece puzzle that noone can do that puzzle. I finished a cat puzzle and then I told them to time me on that puzzle. I guaranteed if left alone I could crack it in 33 minutes. They laughed. I got the borders done in less than three minutes. I than separated the areas within the puzzle. After 25 minutes and a completed puzzle and many bewildered as they gathered others to COME CHECK IT OUT…guess what this puzzle had…MISSING ELEMENTS> on missing piece…it parallels this YHF. One thing I am sharp at is puzzles and memory. I do not have the ALONE time to get this fire investigated nor the proper resources yet if I did I know I can keep getting missing elements public.

      What I am about to write below will be hard for it is what needs to be done but has its consequences for another so I know HOW people who are holding on to information feel…Let me rinse this herbal stuff out of my hair and be back after I do that to reply below…bear with me because I will reveal it all as it happened and I may even talk on the firefighter yesterday God yet again put in my space….k…

      PEOPLE be understanding what I am about to write will be looked at in so many ways from “not right” to “why even do that” to “thank you because every detail means something” to “what a snitch bitch”…etc..

      Reply

  211. Fork wildfire Complex in california now is how things can go that some of you should look at see how initial attack can miss even when the heavy hitters r on it with lots of resources.

    Thursday lightning hit,,,,,….. ,,… 8 hours ago the fire was 4000 acres and 150 wffs..,,, now it is 12000 acres and over 600 wff in 8 hours

    was initial attack poor and that is why the fire blew up or is it a conspiracy theory to let the fire get big so waste big money on fire contractors like some people say?????,,,, nah.,,,, sometimes you lose initial attack.
    is some overhd being slow w resources and thats why it blew up and why is the type 1 team not taking over until tomorrow??!!!??,,,,, conspiracy.,,,, nah only the way that it goes sometimes. takes time.

    type 1 team will not inbrief until tomorrow. too slow or Prima donnas???/ nah,,… takes time to ramp up. some type 1 teams come with a standing order for 10 shot crews that takes time.
    dispatch is pulling int guys frm all over. takes time and doesnot always go perfect. lot of resource orders were refaxed today. reckless or Conspiracy? nahh,,…. nobodies fault,,,,… how it is some times.
    http://inciweb.nwcg.gov/incident/article/4428/26188/

    Reply

    • Reply to dale1 post on August 1, 2015 at 8:07 pm

      >> Was initial attack poor and that is why the fire blew up…
      >> nah.,,,, sometimes you lose initial attack.

      No question…. especially when ( for whatever reason(s) ) you didn’t hit it with enough resources… but SOMETIMES ( the word you use for each instance above )… there really is NO EXCUSE for losing the IA.

      The key is knowing the DIFFERENCE… and being able to admit when serious mistakes WERE made and be willing to LEARN from them.

      Yarnell remains one of those times when there WERE serious mistakes made during the IA… and a lot of tragedy resulted.

      Reply

        • Thank you WTKTT, well said!

          Dale1, “What we’ve got here is failure to communicate” (Cool Hand Luke) so…I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

          One MORE thing I will say however, is that since I have read a few of the comments a few of the times on Wildfire Today’s blog, I think your opinions are relatively widely shared in the wildland firefighter community so…without spending an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out your thought process and trying to change your mind, I just want to say God Bless You and please stay safe out there!

          Reply

    • I have news about donut . i now fully understand the in house mentality and yet i can be one hundred percent pure yet it may cause job loss or change of business and etx.
      This Christian lady spoke to donut quite a bit. donut if you read this you will know exactly who so how important is it i share every details or just say donut. testified. and the lady who topd me was on videp surveillance. when I’m able to get to library to write where i can see what I’m typing vs very tiny cell that nakew typos
      ..so this has never dale1 been so much about the blaming game or theories as much as i want all tobknow there is too many obvious and not so obvious missing elements that this fire has not yet been properly assessed

      Reply

        • I will answer this today— have to get herbal out of my hair. You see in January when I met with some of the top lawyers for a consult it was suggested my natural not colored dirty blonde with sun kissed honey blonde does not do well in court to warm it up to browns. I had a mix put in of red,black,brown and well it never washed out like it was suppose to than I tried EVERY home remedy to lighten it NATURAL and nothing because black needed to be uplifted. I tried and the whole crush vitamin c remedy worked but too much—I now have Pamela Lee Anderson golden hair and UGH so I went to Natural Grocery and bought a non ammonia herbal hue to tone the golden to a more normal way and I am about to see how it worked so bear with me—but YES I will answer it with pure complete details knowing its hard on me to do this but I am going to go back and share stuff as I get it until this fire is properly assessed versus you coming on here talking like people here are trying to theorize and blame and again its the missing elements and the fact that this fire has not been told what happened yet…it is not a blame thing…and these 19 men deserve that clarity an their loved ones and ALL affected by the YHF even the many who died for health reasons since the fire and the hikers may be that statistic soon…Sonny goes for round two of heart surgery soon and I am going to work on figuring out the brain thing for me this week…the tumors I will know where I am at on that soon enough—better or worse…I am sorry for the person who God led to us who I am about to publicly share the conversation but that person said things that the world needs to know in regards to Donut.

          Reply

          • I have just contacted one element before I begin this writing after lunch in a bit to make sure no legal bs can happen from what I write…I want prayer before I do this and I did request it already…I am not eager to do this and nothing but a simple business transaction conversation with surveillance camera that gave a sensitive piece of information that again was God led and same day ran into a firefighter so WHY is it I am always having folks led to us who do not know who we are but it is time we all start talking—SPEAK UP—so people like Dale1 and others do not have the perception that this I M page is about theories and blame game but in fact it is a meeting spot on the topic YHF—a discussion place and it is people who want this fire properly assessed—…at this point I am looking to the legalities of publicly talking about this third person to avoid the bs like I saw in start of 2015. Remember THIS dale1—you come here as not YOU but like the cyber world nickname that represents you offline so noone can nab you like they have me for writings online. Before this fire, you only saw me on my zazzle hiking page. and hike arizona so I am CLUELESS that what you write online can be brought into a court room but I am now a statistic and have a public trail record that a serial killer who soon is to be released now has the ability to track me even easier thanks to one person. I mean before the fire going back to early 2000s when I hung out with Tarantino/Pacino family I literally had Tony Tarantino remove a comment that was made with my name on it (which all he said we thank you Joy A Collura—we all had a great time, *further details*, etc.—when I hung out hot spotting long ago) because it had showed in google. That was HOW OFFLINE I was and am…no social media but here. I come here as Joy A. Collura with complete background— that is me a real in person— and what I say can cause me a “JOY A COLLURA (the whole British court black death comment I made long ago) moment” and I want to AVOID another moment because that was terrible to look into that the “very” man who allowed hearsay to stick in the court room was the same “very” man who “appointed” the appeals judge who that appeals judge sent me letter that no hearing and that judge sticks with first judge—THAT IS NOT FAIR OR RIGHT OR JUST but that is how it happened. I listened to a lawyer and I colored hair for nothing and RUINED the texture of my hair too way bad…may pull off a “the legend of Billie Jean” look before the day is over…just shave it off…I so screwed up my natural hair over some horse shit lawyer ‘s suggestion…(h t tp s://www.youtube.c o m/watch?v=ejUG-N8STfM)…if I do shave my head my mother will pass out. In 1981 my grandma was watching us in New Jersey at our farm home while my mother had to attend a divorce hearing to my father here in Arizona. I had exactly Helen Slater hair…long Alice in the Wonderland hair…my mother leaving me in the elements I had…while she was doing that…I was up in my very high up in the pine trees fort in the forest playing school and restaurant at age 9 and while in there Phillip Stein and David set my fort on fire out of envy and wanted me not to have it…except I was in that fort…I got burned and as well my hair…that awful smell… I in 1981 shaved my head to avoid that burning hair smell…it burnt alot of it off…when my mother pulled up she thought I had my hair tight in shirley temple pin curls….nope…it was shaved off…I may do that today if after I get this conditioner out and see my hair is 100% ruined and just start over…but yes my mother would pass out. Oh that debutante ways she desired or come off desiring me to be like and I am the desert kid…remember, Morton P.—in late 80’s he offered me the most cush lifestyle and even then I could not follow that way—New York—Manhattan….nah, that’s for others…I like it out with the rattlers…I like taking jumping cholla needles out of a mojave rattlesnake with Frankie Serros freaking out as I did it…but that’s my kind of wild life living…

            I, Joy A. Collura, find it easier to unfold a story from the personal point of view first hand HENCE why for over two years I redundantly type SPEAK UP versus me typing it I have no angle, agenda, plot or motivation and have shared this YHF and the thereafter as it has come to me even wen I learned people began to hate me and dislike me being on I M and for sharing as I have…I mean I never knew before this fire a single person who hated or disliked me since junior high when Phillip and David did what they did because my entire makeup of who I am is I am a volunteer for free to help folks criminally insane, severe PTSD, health challenged, older people…kids, etc. live the best life they can in this modern world. I try to educate anyone that comes my way on living a new-normal when things gets thrown your way NOT NORMAL.
            Third person narrative form is writing from the omniscent point of view and to me God is an omniscient God not people. I prefer you all to come here and talk to the world versus me being some messenger because like retired secret service man/smokejumper Charles Moseley said to me…eventually the messenger may be shot and killed….and vanish…I reckon that is why I stay on here too. I have no cares if not one person reads any comment I ever made. Serious. I at least know since the fire I did MY part to make sure these kids know SOME FOLKS did care ENOUGH to seek clarity to why their daddy died. I say LOOK at the people who label us…label away…
            by the way I was asleep alone last night but awoke with another in bed…how does that happen? Fly away with your perceptions on me.
            Yet that is what happened…my husband was like “oh my” …”don’t post that”…well, facts are facts. The facts are I am no hussie though…k. I do grow tired of MISperceptions and that is where if dale1 has followed the page from day one than you know the reality is we are not conspiracy theorists.

            Reply

            • After talking legal talk and as well as my mother due to avoidance of another hearing plus my mom and I. feel for the source who told me. The right thing to do is she tell another besides me.and they say it to the world. I did tell a total of seven. and that included legal/mom so I am not alone knowing but my mom said the news could effect a good Christian ladies friendship and job so leaving it alone but there was thitd party information shown to me on topic of donut testified and how donut feels about afs. my mom looks forward to the republican debates and i am thinking what area to our modern world is not corrupted and.needs revamping…i got stung twice by bark scorpion cleaning microburst after math. naseau and well pain in area and just sucked. Yet one time I got attacked by swarm.of bees and hit by a rattler so what is worse? I can twll you
              the worst feeling for me is qhen my path with Jesus is imbalanced. that hurts the worse than this scorpion sting…hot swollen area..fierce amount of inject the sucka…

              Reply

          • That was a reputable source that Joy talks about concerning Donutty. Due to possible job interference the person can not be named. However, Joy has already asked her permission but no reply yet.. Simply she said Mr. Donutty has told here that he has made an official deposition. She said he was unhappy with the orders AFS gave them that day.

            I am not happy how he has handled this from the beginning and one wonders whether his deposition will be of any value.

            Reply

    • Dale1, “What we’ve got here is failure to communicate” (Cool Hand Luke) so…I think you and I are going to have to agree to disagree.

      One MORE thing I will say however, is that since I have read a few of the comments a few of the times on Wildfire Today’s blog, I think your opinions are relatively widely shared in the wildland firefighter community so…without spending an inordinate amount of time trying to figure out your thought process and trying to change your mind, I just want to say may God Bless You and please stay safe out there!

      Oh…and one more thing, if I ever get a chance to buy you a drink, I will. I really like the whole “nah” thing and I think I will copy it.

      Reply

    • Dale1—-A couple of quick notes

      This Time of year and especially in drought areas Fire starts spread rapidly no amount of IA can change that
      .If lucky enough to catch a start for what ever reason then IA did its job.
      Been there on a lot of teams and it takes time in the mean time a Type one relies on the Fire management to accomplish some action and make a smooth transaction. With Maps, Plans, Weather forecasts and manpower. Nothing should stop the suppression of the fire while waiting for the Type 1 Team to arrive or any other Team. So you kind of lost me.
      Nor do I believe that any Fire is left to grow to make Contractors more money.

      On the Fatality Fire the Most critical time for Fatalities—- is in the IA phase of a Fire the first 24.
      In the Extreme conditions today with drought Scouting should be with extreme caution.
      You can be caught very fast with out notice if you are to trusting of a laid back fire.
      I never scouted until we had a fire knocked down. Anchor point and flanking action stay with the BLACK…

      Rest in Peace David Ruhl

      Reply

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on August 2, 2015 at 7:07 am

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> In the Extreme conditions today with drought Scouting should
        >> be with extreme caution.
        >>
        >> You can be caught very fast with out notice if you are to trusting
        >> of a laid back fire.
        >>
        >> I never scouted until we had a fire knocked down.
        >>
        >> Anchor point and flanking action stay with the BLACK…
        >>
        >> Rest in Peace David Ruhl

        The US Forestry Service has now also issued their OWN press release regarding the David Ruhl incident. It is linked to ( and reprinted ) down below.

        They have announced that regardless of the MANDATORY OIG investigation that is required by law to take place… they WILL, of course, be doing their own investigation of the David Ruhl incident with their own “people”….

        But they ( USFS ) are no longer using acronyms like SAIT ( Special Accident Investigation Team ) or the infamous FLA ( Facilitated Learning Analysis ).

        For this fatality… they say they are going to use a CRP ( Coordinated Response Protocol ) but it WILL contain the equivalent of just an FLA, which they are now choosing to label with the new acronym of just ‘LR’ ( Learning Review ).

        From the USFS Press Release today…
        ——————————————————————–
        The U.S. Forest Service is using a tool known as a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) to review and learn from tragic events. It is a tool the Forest Service uses to ensure that we learn everything possible from serious incidents to reduce the chances of recurrence while lessening the accident’s painful effects on others. The CRP includes a Learning Review. The Learning Review (LR) is a phased approach designed to help thoroughly study the accident with the focus on helping prevent future accidents.
        ——————————————————————–

        Notice below, in the full press release, that the new USFS Regional Office press release says NOTHING about any of the information previously released by Klamath National Forest Information officer Ken Sandusky.

        Sandusky has already reported that the REASON David Ruhl was off by himself when he became entrapped is because he was “scouting for better access to the fire”.

        The ‘higher ups” are now choosing to call that “speculation” and have even gone so far as to ask for retractions on that at some MSM news sites.

        One MSM site that originally printed Sandusky’s comments has, in fact, printed such a retraction.

        That would be the USNews World and Report, who even used Sandusky’s original explanation for WHY Ruhl was where he was in the actual TITLE of their article.

        Here is the ‘retraction’ they printed today after printing Sandusky’s original comments yesterday.

        They are ‘backing off’ Sandusky’s comments… but notice that they did NOT change the actual title of the article itself, which also mentions what Sandusky said yesterday…

        US News – World Report
        Article Title: Firefighter killed while scouting ways to battle
        wind-fueled Northern California wildfire
        —————————————————-
        This story has been corrected to show Forest Service officials do not know what Ruhl was doing when they lost contact, only what his role was, and that it’s unknown if he was trapped by the fire, since the details are still under investigation.
        —————————————————-

        In another MSM article… ( San Francisco NBC News affiliate ) has now also said that David Ruhl’s body was recovered inside of his vehicle… and there was no fire shelter involved… but it is unclear whether that information also came from Klamath National Forest Service Ken Sandusky or ( perhaps ) from the Sheriff’s written incident report itself.

        ** TODAY’S USFS PRESS RELEASE

        And here is the US Forestry Service’s latest Press Release that says they will be doing a ‘CRP’ with an ‘LR’…

        http://www.fs.usda.gov/detail/r5/news-events/?cid=STELPRD3848341

        The full content of today’s USFS Press Release…
        ——————————————————————–
        USDA – United States Department of Agriculture
        Pacific Southwest Region

        News Release
        Fallen Firefighter Update
        Release Date: Aug 2, 2015
        Contact: Duane Lyon – (530) 233-8794

        Alturas, California – Black Hills National Forest Engine Captain, David “Dave” Ruhl, was reported missing Thursday evening, July 30 during initial attack on the Frog Fire on the Modoc National Forest.

        The Modoc County Sheriff’s Office was called for assistance in searching for the missing firefighter. With the leadership of Undersheriff Ken Richardson, search and rescue personnel started the initial search at approximately 8 p.m., July 30. The initial search effort continued until about midnight when it was halted because of hazardous fire conditions. Efforts began again at 6 a.m., July 31 and the victim’s body was discovered at 9:17 a.m. Preliminary investigation indicated the body was that of missing firefighter David Ruhl.

        One of the next steps in the investigation process is for the Coroner’s Office to conduct an autopsy to determine the nature of the death. The autopsy is scheduled for early next week. As part of the autopsy process, laboratory tests will need to be conducted. The tests may take up to five weeks for completion.

        Another key step in the process is to determine how the fatality occurred and what lessons can be learned to prevent future occurrences. The circumstances of that evening leading to Dave’s unfortunate and untimely death will be identified through a thorough review process.

        “Speculating as to the circumstances surrounding David’s death is unproductive. We owe it to the family and the community of firefighters to fully and factually understand the circumstances of his death through a proper review by skilled professionals,” stated Modoc Forest Supervisor Amanda McAdams. “We are anxious to know more, but need to allow time for the proper review to take place. The Modoc County Sheriff’s Office and the Modoc National Forest have a very good working relationship and are closely coordinating efforts as a team.”

        The U.S. Forest Service is using a tool known as a Coordinated Response Protocol (CRP) to review and learn from tragic events. It is a tool the Forest Service uses to ensure that we learn everything possible from serious incidents to reduce the chances of recurrence while lessening the accident’s painful effects on others. The CRP includes a Learning Review. The Learning Review (LR) is a phased approach designed to help thoroughly study the accident with the focus on helping prevent future accidents.

        A Forest Service CRP team has been assigned to the Frog Fire fatality. The team is comprised of staff with technical expertise in specialty areas such as: fire management, fire behavior, proper protective equipment, law enforcement, human factors/performance. Additional specialists and subject matter experts may be called once the team is in place to provide additional support. The CRP process will start August 3, 2015. When completed the final report will be available to the public.
        —————————————————————–

        Reply

        • Followup…

          Other MSM outlets are now also reporting that David Ruhl’s body was found INSIDE his vehicle.

          The following is from ‘The INQUSITR’, who are also quoting the Florida-Times-Union.

          The INQUISITR – News
          Firefighter David Ruhl, 38, Dies After Being Trapped In Wildfire
          Published: August 2, 2015

          http://www.inquisitr.com/2302894/firefighter-david-ruhl-38-dies-after-being-trapped-in-wildfire/

          From the article…
          ———————————————————
          As Ruhl was driving down a road on Modoc National Forest on Thursday, he came in close proximity of the wild fire and tried to “develop a plan of attack” on the small blaze, reported the Florida-Times Union.

          However, concerns quickly grew when the gusty winds caused the small fire to grow, trapping the firefighter inside of his vehicle. All communication was lost and it wasn’t until the following day when five percent of the wild fire was tamed that they discovered his lifeless body.
          ———————————————————

          Reply

    • dale1 says
      AUGUST 1, 2015 AT 8:07 PMreckless or Conspiracy? nahh,,…. nobodies fault,,,,… how it is some times.

      MY REPLY: on YHF, not other fires. NOT ALL ELEMENTS HAVE BEEN YET SHOWN so not ONE person can make a book or article on the DEFINITE account of the YHF but indeed there is no conspiracy just YHF topic discussions….to try and reach clarity

      Reply

  212. **
    ** DAVID RUHL – REST IN PEACE

    This time it’s an actual US Forestry Service employee… so by law… this Wildland Fire fatality MUST be investigated by U.S. Agriculture Department’s Office of Inspector General ( OIG ).

    The National Level US Forestry Service is refusing to say anything about the circumstances of this latest Wildland Fire Fatality… but at least some detail has emerged from non-gagged USFS employee Ken Sandusky, public information officer for the Klamath National Forest.

    David Ruhl was an Engine Captain from South Dakota who had been on temporary assignment as an AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) in California since July 19, 2015.

    He was working one of the active wildfire’s in California near Alturas.

    He was out scouting the fire ( alone ) for better ‘access’… it blew up around him. He died.

    Here is the article that quotes Ken Sandusky…

    http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/california/2015/07/31/firefighter-found-dead-in-modoc-national-forest/30975999/

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————–
    Klamath National Forest Information officer Ken Sandusky says U.S. Forest Service firefighter David Ruhl was driving down a road in a vehicle by himself Thursday, scouting the area when the fire became very active.

    Sandusky says the 38-year-old Ruhl was one of several firefighters looking for ways to fight the then-small fire when it suddenly expanded.

    Crews fighting the blaze lost communication with Ruhl on Thursday evening.

    His body was recovered Friday ( July 31, 2015 ).
    —————————————————————————–

    No word ( yet ) whether any attempt at DEPLOYMENT was involved

    Reply

    • FYI – I don’t know if you know the history of the “by law” thing or not, but the USFS proved themselves so incompetent and corrupt (once again, not with actual briber per se, but managers just want to keep their jobs and get promotions and choice job assignments that they play ball and prostitute themselves) so many times and they are such a high profile agency (as in…everybody cares about our National Forests) that Congress stepped in and mandated some changes so that management can’t manipulate all investigations, all of the time.

      The USFS does have their own Special Agents (1811.s) but like all agency employees, they are subject to management whims, so it goes to the OIG which is a more independent arm of the USDA.

      Bottom line…everybody else needs to do the same thing if you ever want to see any real changes because they system is so entrenched and resistant to do anything new or fix any of their problems because they don’t think they have any problems. Just the occasional glitch, one-off or anomaly because like Dudley said, “nobody did anything wrong.”

      Dudley could be the poster child for everything that is wrong, but apparently he was promoted and now has a new choice job assignment so the their system is working fine from their perspective and exactly how they like it to.

      No offense to the families who want to see change so this never happens again, but they don’t have a clue where to even to start fixing the problem if they think asking the Arizona Division of Forestry and State (whore) Forester Jeff Whitney is the place to begin.

      The more things change, the more they stay the same.

      Well…I am off to try and break my Jeep again in the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area managed by the USFS! That is one thing they are doing right, that place is a hoot. A 30,000 acre sand box you can’t destroy because Mother Nature and her wind fixes your damage a few minutes after the idiots (me included, sometimes especially me) go by.

      Reply

  213. Your comment is awaiting moderation.

    **
    ** DAVID RUHL – REST IN PEACE

    This time it’s an actual US Forestry Service employee… so by law… this Wildland Fire fatality MUST be investigated by U.S. Agriculture Department’s Office of Inspector General ( OIG ).

    The National Level US Forestry Service is refusing to say anything about the circumstances of this latest Wildland Fire Fatality… but at least some detail has emerged from non-gagged USFS employee Ken Sandusky, public information officer for the Klamath National Forest.

    David Ruhl was an Engine Captain from South Dakota who had been on temporary assignment as an AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) in California since July 19, 2015.

    He was working one of the active wildfire’s in California near Alturas.

    He was out scouting the fire ( alone ) for better ‘access’… it blew up around him. He died.

    Here is the article that quotes Ken Sandusky…

    http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/california/2015/07/31/firefighter-found-dead-in-modoc-national-forest/30975999/

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————–
    Klamath National Forest Information officer Ken Sandusky says U.S. Forest Service firefighter David Ruhl was driving down a road in a vehicle by himself Thursday, scouting the area when the fire became very active.

    Sandusky says the 38-year-old Ruhl was one of several firefighters looking for ways to fight the then-small fire when it suddenly expanded.

    Crews fighting the blaze lost communication with Ruhl on Thursday evening.

    His body was recovered Friday ( July 31, 2015 ).
    —————————————————————————–

    No word ( yet ) whether any attempt at DEPLOYMENT was involved

    Reply

  214. **
    ** DAVID RUHL – REST IN PEACE

    This time it’s an actual US Forestry Service employee… so by law… this Wildland Fire fatality MUST be investigated by U.S. Agriculture Department’s Office of Inspector General ( OIG ).

    The National Level US Forestry Service is refusing to say anything about the circumstances of this latest Wildland Fire Fatality… but at least some detail has emerged from non-gagged USFS employee Ken Sandusky, public information officer for the Klamath National Forest.

    David Ruhl was an Engine Captain from South Dakota who had been on temporary assignment as an AFMO ( Assistant Fire Management Officer ) in California since July 19, 2015.

    He was working one of the active wildfire’s in California near Alturas.

    He was out scouting the fire ( alone ) for better ‘access’… it blew up around him. He died.

    Here is the article that quotes Ken Sandusky…

    http://www.news10.net/story/news/local/california/2015/07/31/firefighter-found-dead-in-modoc-national-forest/30975999/

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————–
    Klamath National Forest Information officer Ken Sandusky says U.S. Forest Service firefighter David Ruhl was driving down a road in a vehicle by himself Thursday, scouting the area when the fire became very active.

    Sandusky says the 38-year-old Ruhl was one of several firefighters looking for ways to fight the then-small fire when it suddenly expanded.

    Crews fighting the blaze lost communication with Ruhl on Thursday evening.

    His body was recovered Friday ( July 31, 2015 ).
    —————————————————————————–

    No word ( yet ) whether any attempt at DEPLOYMENT was involved.

    Reply

  215. dale1 says

    July 31, 2015 at 7:44 am

    the opposite of an accident is on-purpose
    this wasnt on-purpose sence nobody wanted to die.

    So I say: Dale1…I don’t know how long you have been following our little experiment in social media, but I don’t like it when anyone disagrees with me…SO KNOCK IT OFF!

    And besides, I think your definition of an ACCIDENT and my definition of an ACCIDENT are really different. OK…so if you have a group of experienced firefighters who make a conscious decision to let’s say, hike down into a brush choked box canyon otherwise known in the colloquial vernacular of wildland firefighters as a chimney, because it focus’ the heat from a wildfire into a narrow space and just like when running water is channeled into a narrow stretch of the stream or river it runs MUCH FASTER and because when flames burn uphill they preheat the fuels above them so they ignite more readily and burn MUCH HOTTER and when wildland firefighters are experiencing EXTREME FIRE BEHAVIOR with 60 foot flame lengths laying over perpendicular that are lighting up everything for hundreds of feet in front of them like a blowtorch and they are witnessing a fire storm with a pyroclastic cloud towering thousands of feet into the sky which is raining down burning material for miles around and you are generally seeing a firestorm of Biblical proportions that is being pushed by extreme winds from a thundercloud and you already know that every hotshot that has ever been killed on a wildfire since hotshot crews were created by our fire gods has been burned to death in a canyon while working above a fire and you deliberately choose to hike an entire hotshot crew of relatively inexperienced young men down a steep narrow brush choked canyon with the fire below and in front of them that is burning towards them as it exponentially exceeds everyone’s expectations by blowing past trigger points much faster than anyone anticipated that event to happen, and even though you can see all of this and your number two say’s “we can’t make it” but they are ordered to try anyway…that my friend is no ACCIDENT, it is as you say…an “on purpose.”

    Which brings up another bone I have to pick with you and Norb. Normally I respect anyone who has ever laced up a pair of White’s to go fight wildfire (Nick’s, Danners and Red Wings, not so much) so I already know I respect Norb, but you…I’m not so sure about.

    Although I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt…if you stop disagreeing with me in a timely manner. Specifically, I am now talking about this whole, “let’s not find fault or point fingers at anyone bullshit.”

    So…let’s take the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) and their mission to determine why airplanes crash in an effort to reduce the chances of a similar airplane crash happening in the future when you or I or one of our loved ones might be on that plane for example. And as you may or may not know, an overwhelming number of plane crashes are caused by pilot error.

    So…let’s now connect the dots by pointing out that the NTSB is comparable to the SAIT and what happened on the YHF to the GMIHC is comparable to a plane going down with 19 mostly young men on board.

    Would you be okay with the NTSB coming in and investigating that crash but letting them evaluate the actions, training, experience, etc., of the air crew, much less the maintenance staff, airplane mechanics, or the manufacturers of the airplane itself, or any of the other thousand of components or parts of the downed aircraft would be “off limits” because you don’t want them, or they don’t want to point fingers or assign blame to anyone?

    If the NTSB never determined it was pilot error for an airplane crash, how would they ever determine training standards, rest and sleep requirements, mental and physical health requirements, health and fitness for duty standards, experience levels to be commensurate with the complexity of flying that particular aircraft and all of the other standards commercial pilots in particular must meet in order to satisfy NTSB standards that keep you and me and our families as safe as is practical while flying on airlines.

    Would you really be okay with that and think that is a good idea, just so they never have to point fingers at a dead pilot, tarnish his memory and reputation or cause their family pain and embarrassment while assigning blame to the pilot who was at fault? Fuck no you wouldn’t, and if you would, you are as fucking nuts as the former quitter governor of the Great Stat of Alaska (my birth place in the Territory of Alaska, and I am so sorry to everyone that my beloved home state produced that….)

    I used to be just like you and then I grew up…just a couple of months ago. And I had to give up and quit defending Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed, which you must know I did for most of the time I have participated in this thread if you have been following it. I just could not reconcile what I thought I knew about Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots with what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was just like you…in full blown denial.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing, I forgot one of the most important things that make this event an “on purpose” and no “accident. The GNIHC were ORDERED by the overhead to hunker down in the black and stay safe.

      Reply

      • Dale1

        P.S., In fact, you can’t possibly compare the maneuver the GMIHC tried to execute to an accident any more than you can compare death by a gunshot wound to the head by playing Russian Roulette with 5 bullets loaded into a 6 shot cylinder and accident.

        It is probably an exaggeration to compare what they did with playing Russian Roulette with an automatic pistol, because they theoretically could have made it, but it’s not much of a stretch.

        Here’s a clue Dale…if literally EVERYBODY rolls their eyes and scratches their heads in amazement after studying the terrain and the fire conditions and NOBODY can understand why they did what they did and the best thing SOMEBODY can say is, well, they thought they could make it,it’s a very bad scenario. I have yet to hear or read any credible source give an opinion that what they did was understandable given the totality of the circumstances.

        Reply

        • And I just have to throw this out there since as I said in an earlier comment, this is my only social media vice because I don’t facebook or twitter or do any other 260 character communicating.

          I was born 61 years ago TODAY in the Territory of Alaska!

          And now that you have my birthplace and my birthdate, I will blog about my social security number and mother’s maiden name at a later time.

          Reply

            • Thank you so much! This blog is my social group since I am reclusive and I generally don’t like to be around people. Which a psychologist could probably have a field day with, but since nobody has the power to order me to submit to a fitness for duty psychological examination, I am home free!

              Reply

    • Gary,

      I am actually with you on this one – I was recognizing that the latest craze or expression in wildland AAR (after action review), investigations, etc. is to focus on “the what, not the who”. However in my opinion if you identify the what it will be connected to the who. At this time we only have 19 firefighters going down hill with fire below (or near) and we know the outcome and the who – we still don’t know the whys. And I think your comparison of the NTSB to the SAIT is an excellent one.

      Reply

      • Norb, Thank you for clarifying that, I knew there were some good reason why I have so much respect for you!

        Reply

      • Norb, I have been thinking about what you wrote and I am having a really hard time understanding how someone could talk about specific mistakes that were made without giving away the person(s) who made the mistakes and thereby keep from pointing fingers, even if indirectly and even if that is not their intention or goal. How would that be possible?

        I can certainly understand why that is describable to some people, but there is only one captain of an aircraft, one co-pilot, and sometimes one navigator (I think) of a commercial airliner. Conversely, there is only one crew boss and one assistant crew boss on a hotshot crew. Maybe if a crew member or one of several squad bosses made the mistakes? You could protect the identity of a specific individual?

        Reply

        • We have two different scenarios
          The rules are to keep you safe—The Ten Standard Orders.
          If you violate a rule the Ten Standard orders will be used against you

          So my conclusion is rules were made to protect you.
          like in a machine shop each peace of equipment has certain safety equipment and rules of safe use. If you violate a rule the machine will injure you. was it your fault or the machine?
          The same with Fire if you do not follow a order and you are injured or die was it the fires fault or the Fire fighter in both cases it is easy to determine what was done wrong, so how do you not point the finger and state what happened and why? That’s the good and bad of the 10 you follow the rules and have a happy ending or you break one or more and sooner or later it will catch up with you.
          You cant fight Fire with out rules it just dose not work that way..
          So when an accident happens a rule was broken or there is only one other choice it was an act of god—No one did any thing wrong but they all died and we cant give you a way to avoid the same thing happening to you.
          How’s that going to work that’s what we were asked to believe on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
          To train on what not to do you have to point to the Rules that were broken like it or not that puts the finger on who broke them even if you do not have an answer to the why.

          Reply

        • Yep, that is exactly what I am saying. That’s why the “what and not the who” has never really made sense to me. Once you identify the what, the who (in most cases ) becomes obvious. Your example of a crew supt. or foreman making a decision that hurts someone, its obviously a supervisor that made the decision that ultimately injured a subordinate. Pretty hard to keep the “who” out of it!

          Reply

  216. Are you ready for some more “straight talk” as my former favorite senior senator (before he put the entire world at risk, according to his own admissions, by selecting that right wing nut job from Alaska to be his running mate in the last election) used to say?

    Neither Amanda Marsh nor our hapless hero Brendan McDonough should be on the YARNELL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD because they both have a vested interest in creating and promoting a narrative that does not and will not reflect the truth about what happened to the GMIHC on the YHF and they have already proved that point a number of time over the past two years. And that will be a great disservice to 18 dead men and only serve to enhance and preserve the actions of one dead man and one really bad man.

    Reply

    • Have to agree with this.

      Being assured of having “input” into the expenditure of public monies for a public project is one thing… and ALL family members ( not just one or two or the most vocal ) should absolutely be “in the loop”…

      But serving as a voting member on a public board is another thing altogether. There is such a thing as “conflict of interest” to always be considered in cases such as this.

      Example: The agenda for today’s meeting not only mentions the proposed larger-than-life-size statuary… it also goes to great lengths to describe how they ( who are THEY, really? ) want to have MANY permanent placards and kiosks installed all over the trail and the ‘rest spots’ and at the site itself with what they call “interpretive language” describing various aspects of Wildland and Hotshot culture as well as ‘details’ about the ‘incident’ which is the reason for this State Park itself.

      That’s all well and good… but WHO is going to WRITE all this ‘interpretive language’?

      Amanda Marsh? Deborah Pfingston? Brendan McDonough? Jeff Whitney? Darrell Willis? Others?

      And what sort of APPROVAL process is going to then be used?

      Will ALL family members ( and not just a few or the most vocal ) have the chance to APPROVE all this ‘interpretive text’ regarding their loved ones and what really happened to them?

      I mean… we are talking about ‘text’ that is, literally, going to be “written in STONE” and installed permanently at a publicly funded State Park. It needs to be respectful… but also accurate.

      With regards to Brendan McDonough’s appointment to serve as a voting member of this public board.. given the fact that Brendan’s criminal defense attorney ( David Shapiro ) has now stated several times that Brendan DOES have, and has ALWAYS had, a crippling case of PTSD… I’m no therapist but it sounds like asking him to serve on this public board was NEVER a good idea for Brendan’s own sake.

      His INPUT should be just as sought after and respected as ALL the family members… but actually serving as a voting member of the board was never the best idea.

      Indeed… given the fact that Brendan doesn’t even normally attend the Board meetings proves that voting position probably should have gone to someone with the ability to be fully engaged.

      Reply

      • Followup….

        With regards to all these ‘kiosks’ containing ‘interpretive text’ that are planned for the State Park… I wrote up above…

        ——————————–
        That’s all well and good… but WHO is going to WRITE all this ‘interpretive language’?

        Amanda Marsh? Deborah Pfingston? Brendan McDonough? Jeff Whitney? Darrell Willis? Others?
        ——————————————

        It should be noted that I wasn’t just pulling that ‘cast of characters’ who are all potential AUTHORS of all this ‘interpretive text’ out of a hat.

        Except for Deborah Pfingston…ALL of those people ARE, in fact, official voting members of this Arizona Public Yarnell Memorial Site Planning Board… and it is highly likely some ( or all ) of them WILL be helping to compose all this planned ‘interpretive text’.

        Deborah Pfingston is not a voting member… but she WAS appointed by the Board to be an official participant on the ‘Design and Planning’ subcommittee.

        And if you haven’t been following along… Deborah Pfingston is Andrew Ashcraft’s mother and one of only TWO family members who spoke at the press conference saying that she was accepting Arizona Forestry’s settlement offer.

        Reply

  217. for norb,,…, if i Were going to say who did anything wrong it would be that a hotshot supe needs to be trained long on a hotshot crew b4 leading his own crew. to learn and observe.
    for Initial Attack questions,,,,.., there was an IC 4 on the hill as boots on the ground no later than Saturday. not sure why everyone ignores that.
    in AZ its not always to put boots on the ground on all lightning strikes the minute they happen if there is no hi risk and not easy to get too bc there is not enough boots to go around sometimes. on the tonto they will sometimes wait on a strike until the morning because it will go out itself with rain from the same fronts that brought the lighting or because they can’t get to it before it gets dark and the spread potential is low.
    yarnell fire spread potential was lo that 1st nite on friday.
    the 2 track up the hill is washed out and no chance a heavy or even light cudda made it even tho they were their that 1st nite and available.

    Reply

    • Dale1—I don’t know if you have followed this thread from the start.

      A couple of things we found. on the Night of the 28th.
      1. The BLM Eng. crew offered to hike in to the Fire.
      2. The Fire department also offered to take a crew in as they knew the two track
      that they could use to get there.
      3. 2 Type 2 inmate crews were on scene but the IC would not send them in as he was told they could not hike 2 miles to the fire.
      4. The next morning their was a Helicopter at Yarnell but was not used until almost noon
      not sure why that happened by that time the Fire was 2 Acers but Smoldering.
      5. The Weather Stations around Yarnell were indicating heat and low humidity’s, as well as drought conditions. Fires were developing fast and showing high spread rates in other areas with close proximity to Yarnell..
      It seemed IA was not in a hurry with very little reason given. Hikers using the 2 track from the helms ranch could get to the fire start at the top near the Helispot or hand gliding spot at the top in an hour or so. Why were the two type two crews not started up the mountain at 0600?
      even if the crews were out of shape one or both could have made it in say 2 & 1/2 hours.
      That would have put 20 men on the fire by around 0830. There was just a huge delay in the IA that has never been explained.

      Also you are mistaken on the Type 4 IC he was never on the ground at the fire scene. Something I have always wondered about. He flew the Fire and then stayed in Yarnell.
      Type 4 IC is a IA supervisor and you are correct he should have had boots on the ground.
      This Fire was accessible from two different two track locations. if you add the one the GM Crew went up. Type two crews should have been able to accomplish that early th3 morning of the 29th So are the Inmate crews incapable of hiking in to a Fire? No one has ever answered that. If they are not capable why are they listed as a Type 2 Crew?
      Just a couple of things we have not been able to find out I would appreciate any Info you might have on this.

      Reply

      • bob POwers sorry i been out. justin Smith and nate pek r ic type 4. nat was boots on the hill on saturday morning justin later,,.!! a timeline for yhf came out on another blog n june.,,,,.. justin did a lot a IA. hes with perryville or was. justin knows what an inmate crew can n cant do,,,…., and im not disrespecting u or gary,,,. u 2 have been hotshot sups for 30 years n got the chps and belts

        Reply

    • dale1 says
      JULY 31, 2015 AT 7:41 AMfor norb,,…, if i Were going to say who did anything wrong it would be that a hotshot supe needs to be trained long on a hotshot crew b4 leading his own crew. to learn and observe.
      for Initial Attack questions

      MY REPLY:
      I disagree. You either have a natural or educated style or you do not-
      I did ice art. I was never trained or educated. I did it beyond well so that falls into “natural” and “old school- not modern molds”
      I was seeked out in the culinary field and cooked for some real top notch folks— “falsely trained”…”fake it to you make it” culinary education and again “natural”
      so I tend to believe training long does not mean a solid solution to a problem…cleaning house and revamping the way they see SAFETY MATTERS and HOW they fight fires…that is a better solution!

      Reply

  218. **
    ** YARNELL MEMORIAL SITE BOARD MEETS AGAIN ON FRIDAY, JULY 31, 2015
    **
    ** DESIGN SUBCOMMITTEE WANTS THERE TO BE A BIGGER-THAN-LIFE-SIZE
    ** BRONZE STATUE OF A WILDLAND HOTSHOT ‘LOOKOUT’ OVERLOOKING
    ** THE DEPLOYMENT SITE.

    I kid you not. Read on.

    The next PUBLIC meeting of the Yarnell Memorial Site Board will be this Friday, July 31, at 1:00 PM, in the Yavapai County Board of Supervisors’ Hearing Room, First Floor Yavapai County Administrative Services Building 1015 Fair Street, Prescott, Arizona.

    The AGENDA for this next PUBLIC meeting has just appeared on the Arizona State Parks site
    where it is required by law to appear…

    http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

    We still aren’t seeing all the ‘minutes’ from all the previous meetings ( as also required by law ), but it appears that the ‘Design Sub-Committee’ has been ‘working’ and they have now arrived at some important decisions about what THEY want this whole memorial site to ‘look like’.

    We are back to ( multiple ) bigger-than-life size ( Scale: 1.25 ), realistic looking BRONZE STATUES.

    At least THREE of them, for starters.

    In particular… the sub-committee wants the ‘rest stop’ at the top of planned trailhead where people will ‘arrive’ after an arduous two-mile hike and finally have a view down into the box canyon of the deployment site to have a larger-than-life-size, realistic BRONZE statue of a ( in their words ) “LOOKOUT HOTSHOT CREWMEMBER”.

    Here is exactly the way their agenda phrases it…

    c) Observation Site; to include a bronze statue of a lookout hotshot crewmember
    at 1.25 scale ratio, a metal shade structure, and interpretive signage.

    So it looks like only in DEATH are the Granite Mountain Hotshots going to get the LOOKOUT they deserved to have ( and SHOULD have had ) in order to stay ALIVE that day.

    Unbelievable.

    I’ve said the following before when they were discussing life-like BRONZE STATUES.

    I don’t know how ‘life-like’ they are planning on making these larger-than-life BRONZE STATUES… but I still say if they aren’t careful the net effect is going to just be more than a little ‘CREEPY’.

    As with all PUBLIC Arizona Boards… these scheduled meetings are open to the anyone and they are also required by law to allow anyone to comment at these meetings, or make electronic recordings of the meetings.

    And THIS time… the new State Forester Jeff Whitney will be there.

    As with prior meetings, however, it is unlikely that Board member Brendan McDonough will also be there. He’s been totally absent from MOST of the meetings of this Board that he agreed to serve on.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      My own personal reservations about life-size and/or LARGER-than-life size bronze statuary besides… let’s say they DO decide to go ahead and spend some of that $196,000 left over after the bargain-bid of $304,000 needed to purchase the land on some tasteful statues… and the ‘creepy’ effect is minimized.

      Let’s also say they somehow figure out a way to keep these expensive statues from being stolen from such a remote and totally unsupervised area.

      I still can’t help wondering if whoever actually proposed the “Hotshot LOOKOUT’ statue considered the OTHER possible ‘net’ effect.

      For generations to come, as people make it to that Weaver Mountain peak and pause at that ‘rest area’ where that statue is supposed to be… if they aren’t familiar with even as much as is already known about what really happened that day they might be saying to themselves…

      “Wait a minute. If they had a LOOKOUT…”

      ( as the statue itself will be implying they DID )…

      .”…then WHY are they all DEAD?”

      Reply

    • I thought this saga had everything, I didn’t realize we were missing a larger than life bronze statue of our hapless hero…Brendan McDonough! As you said…unbelievable….almost. Meaning yes, in this story anything is possible…WOW!

      Reply

  219. This was moved to the top to increase the chances Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney reads it.

    Bob said,”Seems like 3 old well trained Wild Land Fire Fighters are really close I that easement. I wonder how close we are to others Nation wide I would bet really close. So why did the SAIT ignore the Information hitting them right in the face?

    And so I said, “I think that is a rhetorical question…but I am going to answerer it anyway just to make myself feel better.

    The SAIT ignored almost everything because they were/are corrupt, dishonest minions of the system and their employers who are the system.

    And I don’t mean corrupt in the sense they are either receiving or taking bribes for their dishonesty unless you consider they own individual positions of power and influence within their respective agencies and all of the perks that come with those jobs to be bribes. Which b the way, I certainly do, why wouldn’t you as well (that is not a rhetorical question, if you disagree with me, I would love to hear from you)?

    News flash…Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney is also a corrupt minion the last time I heard about his actions on behalf of the Great (?) State of Arizona.

    Hell of a way to end an otherwise stellar (as far as I know) career isn’t it Jeff? Did you ever think you would come to this? You are a sellout, a thief, and a liar. You are betraying everything you worked you whole career to build.

    Here is a rhetorical question for Arizona State Forester Whitney…is it worth it?”

    Oh…and one more thing Mr. Whitney…men like you don’t mean shit to me…give me some investigative authority and some subpoena power and I will fuck you and the horse you rode in on.

    Reply

    • In the 70’s the old HS 6 code ” Fuck you and the white horse you road in on” Same thing with the white horse meaning the GENERAL in charge. Generals always road White horses.
      Or in layman terms the Big Boss——

      Reply

      • Wish I still had the old Hot Shot 6 code you would have got a kick out of it.
        from 6-1 to 6-99 all similar to the above kind of secret code on crew net back then all the Angeles Hot Shots had the same crew freq. it was shot band so only those on the
        the fire could talk with each other. Their were 5 Crews at that time. Some of the other crews picked it up as well. When you had 2 or more Angeles crew on a Fire we tended to cover each others ASS. Which doesn’t happen to day from what I gather.
        Any way just a little history. Texas Canyon, Little Tijuana, Bear Divide, Chilao & Oak Grove.

        Reply

        • That is one I missed, I wish you had it too!

          Oh, and one more thing…I would like to do Karels and Dudley as well. Karels really came off like a tough guy, but I would like a chance to break him down. I have seen better men than him brought to their knees by the truth.

          Karels was the tough guy fact of the SAIT, but anybody watching could see Dudley was the brains and the mover behind the scenes. The USFS strikes again. I still love the USFS, but I have never loved their management team.

          As you know because you read Chapter 1 of my book Betrayed By Our Fire Gods which you downloaded for free at http://www.ourfiregods.com, this is my best quote from that chapter:

          “One thing I did learn during my career, if there is an internal problem and often an even an external one, just look under the nearest rock and you will probably find the manager who was responsible for creating it hiding there from the sunlight.”

          BOOM goes the dynamite!

          Reply

          • Oh…and one more thing, please to here http://wh.gov/iIWJj and sign the petition to extradite that shit sack dentist from Minnesota who baited that lion and shot it like it was tethered to a stake. Great White Hunter!

            P.S., This is my only social media outlet, so…

            Reply

            • He wasn.t a very good shot they had to track it for 40 hours before they finally killed it— a $50,000 dollar hunt. Shot it the first time with a crossbow.

              Reply

          • Dudley got paid well with a new high paying job back east no longer in R4
            Do what you are ask to do and we will reward you. Wonder what Karels got ?????

            Reply

            • So I can’t prove it, but I have a reliable source that says the unwritten part of the declaration of authority for the SAIT was to find no fault and point no blame. Seems like that’s one thing they were successful at!!

              We all make mistakes, some more painful than others but we cannot learn from them if we don’t identify them and move forward.

              Reply

              • norb. in the past 5 yrs or so the rule has become to avoid pointing fingers in any of the investigations. that isn’t specific to the yhf investigation.
                the powers that be agreed that it didn’t help to point fingers and when people are dead it is hard to figure out exactly what hppnd anyway. not pointing figures is a good idea as long as we can still figure out what happened. the serious accident team didn’t have the right tools or training/

                Reply

                • Yep, and I am onboard with not pointing fingers – but we need to recognize the mistakes made. 19 trained firefighters don’t die without some mistakes being made. I know that is difficult to identify those mistakes without associating them to someone, but its not okay to say nobody did anything wrong.

                  Reply

                • dale1 says, “the serious accident team didn’t have the right tools or training”

                  And I would certainly have to agree with this as well. There is one thing I think we all can agree with the SAIT did not have the training, background, experience etc., to conduct a competent investigation and so that begs the question…why call it the Serious Accident INVESTIGATION Team and then they can up with the name…Serious Accident INVESTIGATION Report?

                  Why not call it…A Gaggle of Guys Get Together And Generate a Bunch Of Bullshit or something else more appropriate.

                  You certainly would not assign me to investigation why a suspension bridge collapsed and fell into the water and killed 19 people, you would assign some suspension bridge experts and engineers wouldn’t you? If you wanted to know what happened?

                  I just find it ironic that we as a people are accepting that excuse, of course the SAIT didn’t do a good job with the SAIR…they weren’t qualified. So let’s move on and have Jeff Whitney make some vague promises about reform.

                  I just don’t get why everybody is not as upset as Sonny is?

                  And that brings up another pet peeve I have had ever since yes, my favorite bone to chew on…the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster. Using the word “accident” to describe what happened in advance of the investigation even beginning.

                  People have all kinds of accidents all of the time…19 wildland firefighters burning to death is not an ACCIDENT…is it? It is a DISASTER…a TRADEDEY…a HORRIFIC EVENT…I believe a CRIMINAL ACT (once again…simply read the federal manslaughter statue, don’t shoot the messenger, I didn’t write the law, your representatives in Congress did) a COLLOSAL FUCK UP, I could play this game all night and think up words to use to describe what happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew…but ACCIDNET would not be one of them. Right?

                  Reply

                  • In other words, calling what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to the GMIHC an ACCIDENT before the investigation even began was making a pre-determined…pre-ordained…pre-something and as a minimum it introduced the word ACCIDENT into everyone discussion about what occurred and the power of suggestion is very strong.

                    It is all just part of managements game to deflect blame from where it rightfully belongs and muddy the waters by adding confusion by misdirecting peoples attention from the truth…which of course, I think is BULLSHIT!

                    These tradgeies should never be called ACCIDENT…if you don’t want to call it what it is, they call it a Serious Incident (and if you don’t assign investigators to conduct investigations, then don’t call it an investigation…call it a management review).

                    So…now we have a Serious Incident Review Team who prepares a Serious Incident Review Report or Synopsis or Summary or…here is my favorite…Study. Everybody loves a good study, nothing ever has to come out of those, you just put lipstick on that pig, dress it up and take it out to dinner and call it your date. Put the completed “study” on the shelf in a nice binding and let it collect dust with all of the other government studies.

                    Here is a really big question I have. Why are the people who have standing in this case MAKING SOME NOISE AND DEMANDING SOME ANWSERS? With all of the moral authority you have as a group, there can’t be any family member of any of the 19 who are happy with the results to date…is there?

                    Reply

                    • Obviously the above comment should read, “Why AREN’T the people who have standing in this case MAKING SOME NOISE AND DEMANDING SOME ANWSERS?”

                    • OK…just one more bite (at least) of this apple. Many of us can legitimately disagree about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to the GMIHC and who is responsible.

                      One thing I don’t think any of us would argue is that whatever happened on the YHF and whoever was responsible for what happened, it was not an accident…it was a DELIBERATE ACT, done on purpose, with intent as part of a plan even though we don’t know for certain whose plan it was or exactly what the plan was.

                      Comments?

                    • Well…I finally thought of a good analogy. The other day I was driving down a city street and I slowed down with the traffic to stop at a stop light. The lady behind me was texting and smashed her SUV into the back of my Jeep. It bent the heavy off road steel bumper on my Jeep and totaled her Ford Explorer.

                      Now…that was an ACCIDENT. And even thought here actions were careless and negligent without due caution and circumspection which might produce death, her actions were nevertheless an ACCIDENT.

                      She did not deliberately smash her plastic SUV into the back of my steel Jeep, but even so…under those same circumstances an aggressive prosecutor could have charged her with manslaughter had I been killed in the ACCIDENT, because well…we all know we shouldn’t text and drive at the same time and it is against the law.

                      Now just imagine what she should be charged with if she would have committed a deliberate act and smashed her SUV into the back of my Jeep just because for some unexplained reason that nobody can figure out because it doesn’t make any sense to anybody and would literally leave everybody rolling their eyes and shaking their heads at how fucking stupid she was, just because she “thought she could make it?”

                      So…here is your homework for this module.

                      What crime do you think she should be charged with had her actions in the latter scenario resulted in my death, or the deaths of 17 young men who were in the prime of their lives with the world just waiting for them to hit their stride. What then?

                    • Reposting this because it has been stuck in moderation,

                      Your comment is awaiting moderation.

                      OK…just one more bite (at least) of this apple. Many of us can legitimately disagree about what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire to the GMIHC and who is responsible.

                      One thing I don’t think any of us would argue is that whatever happened on the YHF and whoever was responsible for what happened, it was not an accident…it was a DELIBERATE ACT, done on purpose, with intent as part of a plan even though we don’t know for certain whose plan it was or exactly what the plan was.

                      Comments?

                    • the opposite of an accident is on-purpose
                      this wasnt on-purpose sence nobody wanted to die.

              • Yes That was the Direction on how to do an investigation from NIFC in order not to name defendants for law suits they changed that last year but don’t know if the new direction is any better than the old they are not tying the 10 Standards to the people who failed so how good is that??????

                Reply

              • You can’t argue with results and that was their results and as Sonny keeps saying, you can’t have 19 dead men and conclude that nobody did anything wrong. So…yes, I believe you info is correct.

                Reply

                • Ihhavessomeggood”gloss”…lipoornnainail….butwwhaawhaattthessairddidwwasaababoveaandbbebeyondwwhetheyeeleliminatediininformationffeomoouroowniininterview.myccecellliisaacactingsstrstrangessoIhavennocclue…sendiitffoeefonowbbubuticcacan’tsseseewwhawhatiyptyped.oohaandssosonnyiisiinccriticalccarcareuunitpprprobablynnornormalfforhheqheartssusurgery.hhehhaspparpartttwhhehhearssurgeryiinccocouplewweeks
                  …whatddisadisappointmentmmeffromssqirtteamiisnnottthepparpartoonnnotffindingbblamblameppartbbutttaktakingeelemenooutttoffittthetheirnnarranarratives

                  Reply

                  • Reply to ‘joy a collura’ post on
                    July 30, 2015 at 5:56 pm

                    Since the “squirrels on the wire” had a field day with Joy’s last posting… I took the liberty of trying to ‘clean it up’ and repost it.

                    Joy… apologies in advance if I got any of this wrong but some parts of what the squirrels did up above were hard to figure out.

                    Example: I am NOT SURE at all about the line below that starts with ( ??? ).

                    ———————————————
                    On July 30, 2015 at 5:56 pm,
                    Joy A. Collura said…

                    I have some good ”gloss”… lip or nail… but what the sair did was above and beyond when they eliminated information from our own interview.

                    My cell is acting strange so I have no clue… send it for now but i can’t see what i typed.

                    Oh… and sonny is in critical care unit… probably normal for heart surgery.

                    ( ??? ) He has part (tw??) heart surgery in couple weeks

                    …what disappointed me from sair team is not the part on not finding blame… but taking elements out to fit their narratives.
                    ——————————————-

                    Reply

            • I think Karels was already State Forester for the Florida Forest Service so his would have come in the form of executive/management bonus’, I bet. Plus…just to keep his job, since he serves at the pleasure of the Florida Governor, Wacky Rick Scott.

              Reply

  220. **
    ** GRANT MCKEE ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ SUIT CASE DOCKET HAS BEEN UPDATED

    Sometime this evening ( July 28, 2015 ), someone actually UPDATED the online case docket for the THREE combined ‘wrongful death’ suits that are still active in Maricopa County Superior Court.

    These are the cases filed on behalf of Granite Mountain Hotshots Grant McKee, Jesse Steed, and John Percin, Jr.

    I say THREE because what is curious is that now that it is obvious someone is UPDATING this Court record… there have been NO adjustments to the PARTY information ( list of Plaintiffs and Defendants ) and there are still no entries saying that ANY of the three ‘consolidated’ suits have been ‘settled’ or are no longer part of this proceeding.

    So until the official case record says something to that effect… we have to assume that ALL THREE cases are still “headed to trial”.

    The NEW entry that just appeared is just a confirmation of what we already know, thanks to updates from “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry”.

    A CASE document was added to the record saying that the “Oral Arguments” that just took place are now “Under Advisement”.

    The new entry that appeared is as follows…

    Case Documents
    Filing Date, Description, Docket Date
    7/28/2015, 020 – ME: Matter Under Advisement, 7/28/2015

    Here is where that Case Docket appears online.

    Notice there have been NO UPDATES to the ‘Party’ information.

    None of the original Plaintiffs have been ‘removed’ from the active list even though someone is now obviously UPDATING the Case Docket.

    https://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/CivilCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2014-009068

    From the document ( as of this evening )…

    ———————————————-
    Case Information
    Case Number: CV2014-009068
    Judge: Gama, J. Richard
    File Date: 6/26/2014
    Location: Downtown
    Case Type: Civil – eFile
    ———————————————
    Party Information
    Party Name, Relationship, Sex, Attorney

    Plaintiffs…

    Marcia McKee, Consolidated, Female, Craig Knapp
    Kylie Steinmetz, Plaintiff, Male, Craig Knapp
    Desirre McCarthy, Plaintiff, Female, Craig Knapp
    Herman O Federwisch, Consolidated, Male, Craig Knapp

    Defendants…

    State Of Arizona, Defendant, Brock Heathcotte
    Arizona State Forestry Division, Defendant, Brock Heathcotte
    Michael Parrish, Endorsement Case, Male, MICHAEL PARRISH
    ———————————————
    Case Documents
    Filing Date, Description, Docket Date
    7/28/2015, 020 – ME: Matter Under Advisement, 7/28/2015
    5/19/2015, 095 – ME: Oral Argument Reset, 5/19/2015
    1/16/2015, 095 – ME: Oral Argument Reset, 1/16/2015
    1/15/2015, ORD – Order, 1/21/2015
    Etc.
    ———————————————
    Judgments: There are no judgments on file
    ———————————————–

    Reply

  221. Reply to “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry” post on July 27, 2015 at 12:26 am

    >> “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry” said…
    >>
    >> UPDATE TO ORAL ARGUMENTS
    >> Judge Gama has taken the arguments under advisement and will
    >> rule within 60 days. PLEASE KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED!

    Once again… THANK YOU!

    I doubt it will take 60 days.

    This Judge needs to remember that this is already scheduled to be a JURY trial… and it is NOT his job to rule singly on the MERITS and FACTS of the case.

    Indeed… the true FACTS regarding the incident have YET to emerge… and that would be the PURPOSE of letting it go to trial.

    We still don’t even know if the move out of the black was happening under direct orders/directives/strong-suggestions from others in fire command… and you have a witness who has never fully testified truthfully who SEEMS to already know the answer to that running around making book deals.

    The Judge MUST take into consideration that for all intents and purposes… this incident has NEVER really been properly ‘investigated’ at all… and whatever arguments the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making for dismissal are only based on PARTIAL evidence and are, essentially, just their OPINIONS.

    The Arizona Forestry lawyers are pitching like “Rembrants” and they are “painting the corners” of the plate at this point and just hoping the umpire calls one of them as “strike three”.

    This Judge SHOULD side with the ‘plaintiffs’ here.

    That doesn’t mean he SUPPORTS the plaintiffs or their claims or that there is then any guarantee the plaintiffs will ‘win’ the ‘ballgame’….

    …but it’s not his JOB to determine that.

    All he has to do is LET it go to trial, as it should, and let 12 good citizens of Arizona decide what really happened that day.

    Grant McKee himself ( Rest in Peace ) DESERVES his ‘day in court’.

    Reply

    • All he has to do is LET it go to trial, as it should, and let 12 good citizens of Arizona decide what really happened that day.

      Grant McKee himself ( Rest in Peace ) DESERVES his ‘day in court’ AND MANY MORE FOLKS.

      AMEN.

      Reply

  222. **
    ** GRANT MCKEE WRONGFUL DEATH CASE PLEADINGS ARE NOW ONLINE

    Just in case anyone missed this… a few hours ago John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA posted a lot of the actual PLEADINGS that have been filed in the Grante McKee ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit that is still FULLY ACTIVE over in Maricopa County Superior Court.

    Just click this link to see Mr. Dougherty’s latest article…

    http://www.investigativemedia.com/grant-mckee-pleadings-posted/

    There is still no word on the Judge’s decision about whether to grant the Arizona Forestry lawyer’s motion to dismiss the case even while it is in its current “Discovery” phase… or what he thought of their ORAL arguments that were presented in his courtroom just 48 hours ago… but at least now we can see some of the actual arguments they were presenting to Judge Richard Gama.

    Reply

    • In the PLEADINGS filed in the Grant McKee wrongful death case… we see that the State of Arizona is NOT trying to claim it has ‘sovereign immunity’ and, therefore, cannot be sued.

      That’s good… because they DON’T have it.

      Arizona is still one of those states in Union whose legislature has NOT codified for the State the same ‘sovereign immunity’ that Federal employees and the employees of other States enjoy.

      In Arizona, with a sufficient amount of proof of negligence… anyone in Arizona can sue any State agency or employee.

      It doesn’t mean you will WIN your case… but that is not the point.

      We are talking about people having the RIGHT to have their day in court and letting a Jury of their peers decide the issue.

      That is still a FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT in this country, and anyone who puts a stop to the process needs to have some damn good reasons why someone should NOT have their ‘day in court’… win or lose.

      So, in the PLEADINGS, the attorneys representing Arizona Forestry are “falling back” on that legal concept that has been discussed here before many times.

      It is called “exclusive remedy”.

      The absolute primary base for their ‘motion’ filed with Judge Gama for Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ suit to be jsut outright DISMISSED is this whole “exclusive remedy” thing.

      They are saying that unless someone can prove “willful misconduct” regarding the death of her son in that Arizona Forestry workplace… then the ‘death benefit’ money coming from standard worker’s compensation insurance coverage has to be considered the “exclusive remedy” and any other legal actions against Arizona Forestry should be DISMISSED.

      The Catch-22 here is that whether or not there WAS any amount of “negligence” and/or “willful disregard” or “willful misconduct” involved in the death of Grant McKee is WHY you NEED to have a TRIAL in the first place.

      The Arizona Forestry lawyers can write all day long to Judge Gama ( as they did ) that there was no “willful misconduct” or “willful disregard for employee safety” happening in Yarnell…

      …but two cents and that won’t get them to China, as they say.

      Essentially… that is simply their OPINION.

      Arizona’s own Occupational and Safety / Hazard ( ADOSH ) agency has ALREADY DETERMINED that Yarnell was such an ‘unsafe workplace’ and there was so much “willful disregard” for firefighter safety happening in that workplace that it’s a miracle dozens more people ( firefighters and citizens included ) weren’t killed that day.

      They ‘pegged the meter’ during their own investigation and found SO MANY violations that they ended up issuing HISTORIC fines and citations against Arizona Forestry for the incompetence and the negligence and the disregard for safety that was present in that workplace that weekend.

      ADOSH even CALLED their primary citation a “Willful, Serious” violation.

      So regardless of the fact that the ADOSH investigation and report alone SHOULD be enough to prove that a ‘wronfgul death’ action at least has the right to have its ‘day in court’ here…

      …the TRIAL itself is where the real TRUTH needs to come out.

      Even ADOSH’s investigation came up short as to discovering all the facts and circumstances surrounding Grant McKee’s death along with 18 other Arizona Forestry contract employees.

      When ADOSH started ‘pegging the meter’ and were hitting the ‘maximum fines’ they were allowed ( by law ) to impose… they hadn’t even FINISHED their investigation.

      They didn’t even go back and do a lot of ‘follow up’ interviews to resolve some huge discrepancies in people’s testimony… because once they ‘pegged the meter’ on the fines they could impose there really wasn’t much point in finishing their own investigation.

      So Judge Richard Gama REALLY has to take into account that the death of Grant McKee ( and the others ) has never ACTUALLY been FULLY INVESTIGATED.

      If Judge Richard Gama tries to just play ( excuse the pun ) “Judge AND Jury” here from the bench and he tries to say something like there isn’t enough EVIDENCE of any “willful misconduct” or “willful disregard for safety”…

      …then his ruling probably won’t survive an APPEAL.

      It would mean he is over-stepping his authority if he, himself, appoints himself as the sole “decider of fact” in a case that has legally requested it be decided by a JURY, and not just one individual Judge.

      All this Judge is required to do here is decide whether this case should proceed so that the death of Grant McKee really does stand a chance at finally being fully investigated.

      He doesn’t have to ( and should NOT ) decide the MERITS or the FACTS of the case.

      That is NOT his JOB regarding this “motion to dismiss” filing.

      Even without the existing ADOSH findings with regards to “negligence” and “willful safety violations”… it couldn’t be more obvious that this case SHOULD at least be allowed to “have its day in court” and have as many FACTS as possible come out for a JURY to hear.

      I really will be ASTONISHED if this Judge Gama guy grants Arizona Forestry’s motion to dismiss. Cutting short someone’s right to even simply have their day in court when there is already AMPLE evidence to prove they should would be a serious error on his part.

      Reply

      • Followup…

        It should be noted that everything I was mentioning above regarding the FACT that people who work in the same building as the Arizona State lawyers ( ADOSH ) have ALREADY determined there was “Willful, Serious” disregard for firefighter safety in Yarnell has ALREADY been mentioned in the response pleadings by “Knapp and Roberts”, including attorney Michael Sheedy who works for KR and is an absolute renowned expert in ‘wrongful death’ cases.

        There are actually some other very complicated legal issues that have also been presented as part of this ‘motion to dismiss’ coming from the Arizona State attorneys assigned to represent Arizona Forestry.

        What these State lawyers are doing is exactly what they have been trained to do in various law schools.

        They are being “Rembrant Pitchers” and they are “Painting the Corners” with any number of legal arguments and just hoping the umpire might call one of them a “strike”.

        Example: There is a complicated issue being presented here that, in all likelihood, the City of Prescott did NOT actually have any kind of VALID “Intergovernmental Agency Agreement” ( IGA ) in place with Arizona Forestry.

        Apparently… the City of Prescott simply SCREWED UP and the Prescott City Council didn’t actually ‘approve or extend’ the existing IGA the way they were legally required to do so… so that means they had no VALID IGA in place at the time of the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        Depending on how that pans out… that could seriously effect the LEGAL ramifications when it comes to all this other “worker’s compensation” and “exclusive remedy” stuff.

        Arizona Forestry is tieing their ‘exclusive remedy’ clause to the IGA, but the attorneys for the plaintiffs are the ones who have apparently discovered that the IGA between City of Prescott and Arizona Forestry wasn’t even (legally) VALID.

        So that is one of the “Rembrant Pitches” that the umpire ( Judge Richard Gama ) is going to have to mention in his final decision about this ‘motion to dismiss’.

        OR… some of this “Rembrant Pitching” could actually BACKFIRE on Arizona Forestry.

        The Judge could take a look at these arguments and basically say…

        “Gentlemen ( and ladies )… you’ve done nothing but prove to me that this case SHOULD go to trial… where we can properly work out these complicated legal issues in an actual courtroom. Motion to dismiss is DENIED”.

        Reply

        • WTKT–Thanks for that information on Grant McKee wrongful death hearing.and the legal ramifications. We hope those judges involved including Judge Gama read this website. Not only will they get legal information but they will see that the general public demands answers to this calamity. The legal system owes it to the loved ones of the deceased 19 and if they fail in their duty to extract the truth from such reluctants as Donut it should be duly noted by the media so that the loved ons, voters and others will be informed of their proper or improper actions.

          Reply

  223. Since we seem to be in a lull for the moment I have some questions I would like to throw out regarding the first few days of the fire. It’s difficult for me to explain to some why I feel the IA failed, then I thought maybe I am being to harsh. So, I have been thinking of this from a “report card” point of view, since some folks just don’t understand the fire mindset. So based on the following questions, how would you grade each one. I know it seems basic for some of us, but I am just curious. Please feel free to elaborate on each.

    1. Initial attack – based on known and predicted environmental factors, time of day, resources avail, blah blah, blah) ?

    2. Utilization of available resources’ (both on scene and pre-positioned)during the first 12 hours.?

    3 Recognizing and “pulling the pin” before the big dog decided to eat ?

    4 The team transition – did they organize the CHAOS or add to it?

    5 Team management of the fire on the 30th (Two OPS chiefs?)

    6 The investigations ( think I know the grade on this one)

    I have my grading for all of the above but I wanted to get some other experience in the grades, so normal A-F. I am thinking we wont end up with a college entrance GPA

    Reply

    • I graded 0 to 10

      1. IA———2 D-

      2.. I would give this a total fail —0 F

      3. Again I think this was a total Fail They waited to long to late—-0 F

      4. I think the type 2 started ok but never really had a plan to implement and things went south–3 D

      5. There was some but to much people doing their own thing — 3/4 D+

      6. The worst I have ever seen—-0 F

      And then people died

      Reply

      • That is fair enough grading Bob and if there were a minus factor it would have to be -19. How any of those fellows that were running this fire can walk around with their heads up is beyond me–and getting awards for a Job well done? Where does that come from and who has the audacity to hand them out?

        Reply

          • Thanks Bob, I ought to be alright by the good heart doctors at the VA hospital in Tucson. Still, seeing those 19 young men loose their lives due to a screwed up management was never good for the heart. It is even additionally heartbreaking to see so few demanding a thorough investigation of their deaths. We do hope that comes about due to the efforts of investigators on this site. JD has done a great service here allowing the free flow of comments and ideas to expose the cover up and lack of investigation in this case. Perhaps the legal system and a few good Judges will get involved to help clear this thing up. I would welcome a good Federal Bureau of Investigation teem into the fray. There may after all be more to this cause of death than just plain screw ups by management. What if the federal monies are being squandered by allowing small fires to generate big contract monies. For example I have been told that the Yarnell Fire Department worked in Peeples Valley while Peeples Valley worked in Yarnell because they could receive more money that way by being off base. If that is true how dumb it was since YFD would know streets locally but be lost in Peeples Valley area. This type action smells bad to local people and though perhaps minor infractions of the law, nevertheless indicates misuse of public funds. How much does it take to get a federal investigation into bigger things– Nineteen dead firement–no proper investigation?

            Reply

            • it was a nice few weeks without seeing the YFD hummer but today it APPEARS and I learned the reason I had not been seeing it was due to the chief was in Alaska fighting a wildfire. Be interesting to know more into that because that area has been grey since chief Jim Koile stepped down…I have their own firefighters come to me after the fire and to me their words are with me but I do think I could sit and name soooo many to help you lawyers get the proper depositions versus relying on just the survivor Donut—

              Reply

        • Yep, Sonny is right, you have to minus 19 from all of the grades I gave everybody, which means they are all in negative numbers.

          Get well soon Sonny!

          Reply

          • ROAD TRIP!

            soft smiles

            maybe a new heart means new start..
            after 5 or 6 wives…what do you expect…he has had six broken hearts already…
            time for a new heart 🙂

            Reply

    • 1. Initial attack – based on known and predicted environmental factors, time of day, resources avail, blah blah, blah) ?

      This is a hard one to answer for me because I know how the Arizona Division of Forestry has always fought fire and I almost would want to grade them on a Bell Curve based on how other western states other than California fight fire, which is to say cut corners everywhere in which case I would give them a C. But that being said, I would score them F because it failed, blow it off and hope it goes out, assign minimal resources that are poorly motivated and trained (con crew), delay and fail to properly use BLM helitack, accept the fire is too hard to get to fight, we can’t drive to it so we can’t fight it, bottom line…delay, cut corners, delay some more, cut more corners, oh shit it took off!

      2. Utilization of available resources’ (both on scene and pre-positioned)during the first 12 hours.?

      See number 1, so an F

      3 Recognizing and “pulling the pin” before the big dog decided to eat ?

      This is very perplexing to me, there seemed to be no recognition that the predicted weather forecast would have given anyone paying any attentjion the heads up the fire was going to do exactly what it did. And they completely failed to properly plan for the change that was predicted and then they ran to catch up with linear thinking in an exploding crisis that was exponentially growing. So an F

      4 The team transition – did they organize the CHAOS or add to it?

      I am not qualified to grade this, and as a result I haven’t really followed it very closely.

      5 Team management of the fire on the 30th (Two OPS chiefs?)

      I am not qualified to grade this, and as a result I haven’t followed it very closely. In addition, I never fought a fire under the ICS, so I have never really understood or related to it. However, it seemed to me that overhead unilaterally decided not to do their jobs, switched jobs, rewrote their job descriptions on the fly, doubled up and duplicated jobs and stepped on each other while letting some critical things fall through the cracks and generally followed a pattern of disorganized chaos.

      6 The investigations ( think I know the grade on this one)

      Ya, an F, for too many reasons to name here.

      Reply

      • Here are the grades I gave to the questions

        1. Initial Attack – D-

        I was trained that Size-up begins before you even have a fire start. You continuously evaluate conditions in your area, fuel availability (will it burn or not), weather both current and expected, and resources available. In addition to this ongoing process you look at fire activity in the area, are fires escaping initial attack frequently or are they being suppressed easily? The answer to those questions gives a very good idea on current fuel and fire conditions. I don’t get the feeling that the “Duty Officer” considered these factors; in addition once the fire started he was still responsible for the entire area and concerned there may be more fires. Again, throughout my career I was trained that you take care of the fire you know you have. In this case, he should have assigned someone as the Incident Commander specifically for the Yarnell Hill fire, and then he could continue to manage the district as the duty officer. It’s very difficult to do both during an active lightning storm and I believe this tragic event proves that point.
        I appreciate the safety and support concerns for the first night, however wildland ff’s are trained to deal with those issues – a wildland engine company could of hiked into the fire in daylight, worked on the fire during the night and had it wrapped up by daylight. At the very least boots should have been on the ground by sunrise the following morning.

        2. Utilization of available resources – F

        To my knowledge the only resources requested were the inmate crews and the borrowed helicopter and neither of these resources were used in a timely manner or to their full potential. I understand the concern with exposing crews to potential lightning, my choice would have been putting the entire crew on site and minimize the exposure time instead of a short crew and extending the potential exposure time. As the district duty officer with active lightning coming through my district I would have requested some of the pre-positioned resources to move into my district, you can always turn them back if they are not needed. Again the importance of having a “boots on the ground” IC- someone to give a quality size up and request appropriate resources, determine strategy and tactics based on being on scene and monitoring progress of initial attack resources.

        3. Recognizing and pulling the pin before the big dog started to eat – F

        As stated in answer 1 fire activity in the area was escaping initial attack forces and environmental conditions were conducive to large fires if not aggressively attacked. The area coordination centers don’t pre-position resources without good reason, and Arizona had lots of pre-positioned resources at that time from all over the country. This was treated as a “nothing” fire from the start and by the time the big dog decided to eat there was no stopping it.

        4. Team transition – did they organize the CHAOS or add to it? – D

        Team transitions are always difficult, the reason the team is ordered is because things are going bad. With that said, the team should be able to organize the CHAOS, develop strategies and tactics for the upcoming operational periods, etc. This didn’t happen. No maps, no IAP, no record of a delegation of authority or official transition. The only reason this is not an F is because of the pre transition scouting and Intel gathering that some of the incoming team members did.

        5. Team management of the fire on the 30th – F

        See above, in addition total lack of any organization – an IC that won’t carry a radio, when the shit hits the fan planning ops becomes field ops(now we have two), that becomes confusing. When in Charge take charge – didn’t happen!

        6. The investigations (think I know the grade on this one) F

        19 firefighters dead yet no mistakes were made!

        Reply

        • Seems like 3 old well trained Wild Land Fire Fighters are really close I that easement. I wonder how close we are to others Nation wide I would bet really close. So why did the SAIT ignore the Information hitting them right in the face?

          Reply

          • I think that is a rhetorical question…but I am going to answerer it anyway just to make myself feel better.

            The SAIT ignored almost everything because they were/are corrupt, dishonest minions of the system and their employers who are the system.

            And I don’t mean corrupt in the sense they are either receiving or taking bribes for their dishonesty unless you consider they own individual positions of power and influence within their respective agencies and all of the perks that come with those jobs to be bribes. Which b the way, I certainly do, why wouldn’t you as well (that is not a rhetorical question, if you disagree with me, I would love to hear from you)?

            News flash…Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney is also a corrupt minion the last time I heard about his actions on behalf of the Great (?) State of Arizona.

            Hell of a way to end an otherwise stellar (as far as I know) career isn’t it Jeff? Did you ever think you would come to this? You are a sellout, a thief, and a liar. You are betraying everything you worked you whole career to build.

            Here is a rhetorical question for Arizona State Forester Whitney…is it worth it?

            Reply

  224. This comment was moved to the top to increase the chances Sonny sees it or Joy sees it and tells Sonny about it.

    Right on Sonny, you understand from personal experience how the system works to crush the average person. I am really worried about your surgery and my thoughts and prayers are with you. We have unfinished business on the Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter of my book, Betrayed By Our Fire Gods and as you know (and have done) you can download Chapter 1 for free at http://www.ourfiregods.com which basically tells the whole story of what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire to the Mormon Lake Hotshots.

    Reply

    • Gary, I head up in a few hours to see Sonny and watch the dvd MANNY (http://www.imdb.com/video/imdb/vi3557011225)

      Yes, he is in so much pain…its awful to see him like that-

      a few more days until surgery.

      I think the chapter on Yarnell Hill will be a very unique one…because of your style of writing—

      I will let Sonny know about your post-

      Reply

        • Thank you, I am doing fine, and thanks for letting Sonny know about my thoughts for him, and yes, the Yarnell Hill Chapter (or book) will be very unique because of you and Sonny and what have done to push this story forward to help find some closure for everyone, although none of us will ever forget.

          Reply

          • Gary and Bob, Thanks for your concern and I am OK on this end. The doctor that worked on me looked to be damned young for a heart surgeon but I liked him and my heart is still beating so he must have done a good job. I go back for more work toward the end of the month.

            Generally we like to see some age on people when they do delicate work. That must go for firefighting as well. Well this one did not say the safety rules were hill billy so that was a plus,.

            Reply

  225. Bob,

    Rod Wrench and I got some mileage way back when by double teaming Willis when he was way out of control with his ridiculous statements about how hotshots should run into burning buildings, etc., so…next time you talk to him, please tell him he is in my thoughts and prayers.

    Reply

  226. **
    ** ORAL ARGUMENTS IN MARCIA MCKEE’S WRONGFUL DEATH CLAIM
    ** ON BEHALF OF HER SON, GRANT MCKEE

    It is now Saturday afternoon and still NOTHING appeared in the public media regarding the oral arguments that supposedly took place yesterday, at 1:30 PM, in Marcia McKee’s ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit on behalf of her son, Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee.

    Here is the actual PROOF that the ‘oral arguments’ surrounding Arizona Forestry’s motion to dismiss the case were supposed to have taken place at 1:30 PM yesterday.

    First… here is the link to the actual ‘Case History’ page for Marcia McKee’s wrongful death filing in Maricopa County Superior Court…

    https://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/CivilCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2014-009068

    That page is STILL listing THREE separate ( but still ACTIVE ) ‘wrongful death’ cases that have been ‘consolidated’ for the ‘discovery’ phase.

    The THREE cases represented are on behalf of Granite Mountain Hotshots Grant McKee, Jesse Steed and John Percin, Jr.

    There is new information that the cases over here in Maricopa County District Court related to Jesse Steed and John Percin, Jr. were actually ‘settled’ just recently, and right AFTER that ‘press conference’ regarding the OTHER ‘wrongful death’ cases over in Federal court all being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder…

    …but there is still no official indication of that in the online court records.

    The online court records are still showing all THREE ‘wrongful death’ cases as being fully active on the Maricopa County Superior Court calendar.

    This *could* be just a lag in someone properly updating these online court records and the Steed and Percin cases will eventually disappear from the ‘parties’ listing in this ongoing court record.

    ———————————————-
    Case Information
    Case Number: CV2014-009068
    Judge: Gama, J. Richard
    File Date: 6/26/2014
    Location: Downtown
    Case Type: Civil – eFile
    ———————————————
    Party Information
    Party Name, Relationship, Sex, Attorney

    Plaintiffs…

    Marcia McKee, Consolidated, Female, Craig Knapp
    Kylie Steinmetz, Plaintiff, Male, Craig Knapp
    Desirre McCarthy, Plaintiff, Female, Craig Knapp
    Herman O Federwisch, Consolidated, Male, Craig Knapp

    Defendants…

    State Of Arizona, Defendant, Brock Heathcotte
    Arizona State Forestry Division, Defendant, Brock Heathcotte
    Michael Parrish, Endorsement Case, Male, MICHAEL PARRISH
    ———————————————
    Case Calendar
    Date, Time, Event
    1/27/2015, 9:30 ( 9:30 AM ), Oral Argument
    5/22/2015, 13:30 ( 1:30 PM ), Oral Argument
    7/24/2015, 13:30 ( 1:30 PM ), Oral Argument
    ———————————————
    Judgments: There are no judgments on file
    ———————————————–

    The ‘oral arguments’ that have been scheduled THREE times already were all supposed to focus on Arizona Forestry’s motion for a dismissal of the case DURING its current ‘discovery’ phase.

    Those ‘oral arguments’ were scheduled TWO times before, but the case history docket shows that, each time, they were ‘postponed’ just a few days before they were supposed to take place.

    The 7/24/2015 date ( at 1:30 PM in Judge J. Gama’s courtroom ) has NO corresponding ‘postponement’ entry in the case history… so it has to be assumed those ‘oral arguments’ took place yesterday, as scheduled.

    It will be interesting to hear the results… and interesting to hear what ARGUMENT(S) Arizona Forestry was even making to even justify an early dismissal.

    Arizona is still one of the states in the union that does NOT have ‘automatic sovereign immunity’ for State employees. Anyone CAN sue any Arizona State employee or agency provided there is reasonable evidence of negligence and/or incompetence.

    So the case(s) CANNOT be dismissed during this current ‘discovery phase’ because of any kind of “We’re untouchable” argument from Arizona Forestry.

    These ‘wrongful death’ cases DESERVE their “day in court”… and the chance for a JURY to decide the outcome.

    Remember that Judge Richard Gama is the one who has already decided ( in regards to the Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits with 160+ plaintiffs ) that Arizona Forestry did not have one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to be protecting ANYTHING in the Yarnell area that day… people and structures included.

    If he stands by that opinion of his… and the APPEAL holds up… then that actually makes the ‘wrongful death’ actions that are also before him even more ‘wrongful’ and worthy of proceeding to trial.

    If Arizona Forestry employees never have one, single atomic molecule of responsibility to ever be protecting anything at all… then the Arizona Forestry employees who led 17 other men to their deaths on June 30, 2013, were already committing ‘negligence’ the moment they might have decided to leave safe black on order to ‘protect’ anything at all.

    IMPORTANT: Even if Judge Gama decides that the case(s) should be dismissed ( and he has to have a pretty damn good reason to deny these Arizona citizens their rights to have their day in court )… that decision can ( and most assuredly WILL be ) be APPEALED.

    Reply

    • Speaking of APPEALS…

      Richard Gama’s opinion that Arizona Forestry never has one single atomic molecule of duty or responsibility to ever be ‘protecting’ anything at all is under full APPEAL and REVIEW… and that case is very much ‘alive and well’ and Maricopa County Superior Court.

      ANOTHER Judge might have a completely different opinion that Mr. Gama about this.

      We shall see.

      ** YARNELL PROPERTY DAMAGE SUITS – APPEAL PROCESS CONTINUES

      Here is how the APPEAL of Judge Richard Gama’s decision to dismiss some of the Yarnell Property Damage lawsuits is going.

      This is the actual ‘Case History’ docket sitting at a PUBLICLY reachable URL on the Arizona Supreme Court’s Appellate Court system.

      NOTE: This document is easily ‘findable’ using just a normal ‘Google’ search and the actual NAME of the case.

      Just do a Google search for exact phrase “ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.” and the following document will be the first ‘search hit’ on the Google results page…

      http://apps.supremecourt.az.gov/aacc/appella/1CA%5CCV%5CCV150349.pdf

      The case seems to be moving right along.

      The usual ‘Request for Scheduling of Oral Arguments’ has already taken place, and we see proof that the lawfirm of “Knapp and Roberts” has, in fact, paid the $280 filing fee.

      It also shows TWO urgent ‘Pending matters’ with scheduled dates.

      The FIRST one is a ‘Response’ due in 3 days ( July 27, 2015 ) to the Motion to consolidate the Acri and Overmyer appeals.

      The SECOND one is an ‘Opening Brief’ due next week ( August 3, 2015 ).

      From the document itself…
      ———————————————————————————
      Response Due
      Due By: Monday, July 27, 2015
      Re: FILED: Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals; Certificate of Service for Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals (Appellant)

      Opening Brief due
      Due By: Monday, August 3, 2015
      Re: FILED: Notice to Parties re: Appellant’s Fee/Case Management Statement/Brief Due
      ——————————————————————————–

      ** THE FULL CASE HISTORY DOCUMENT

      As of today ( July 24, 2015 ) the full content is as follows…

      Page 1
      —————————————————————————–
      Court of Appeals, Division One – Civil Appeal
      1 CA-CV 15-0349 – ACRI et al. v. STATE et al.

      Appellate Case Information
      Case Filed: 28-May-2015
      Case Closed: ( No entry )

      Dept/Composition
      ( No entry )

      (122321) 1 CA-CV 15-0349 CV150349 CV 15 0349 CV-15-0349 Information presented in this document may not reflect all case activity and is subject to change without notice.
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 2
      —————————————————————————–
      Side 1. GORDON ACRI, et al., Plaintiff/Appellant
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 3
      —————————————————————————–
      Attorneys for: Plaintiffs/Appellants

      Craig A Knapp, Esq. (AZ Bar No. 13580)
      David L Abney, Esq. (AZ Bar No. 9001)
      Dana R Roberts, Esq. (AZ Bar No. 13654)

      (Litigant Group) GORDON ACRI et al.

      Gordon Acri
      Act Contracting LLC
      Maria R Adams
      Walter E Adams, Sr.
      Jack Aldridge
      Judy Aldridge
      Holly Arklin
      Richard V Arklin
      Arrowhead Bar and Grill
      Arrowhead Mobile Home and RV Park
      Andy M Bacon
      Shelly J Bacon
      The Baluco Trust
      Clint Banks
      Holly J Becker
      Lynn Bellamy
      Leigh C Bennett
      Jeraldine Bennett
      Shannon D Bennett
      William Bennett
      Bruce C Bertmeyer
      Effie J Bertmeyer
      Chuck Birrenbach
      Pam Birrenbach
      Johannah Bode
      Michael Bode
      Bruce Brown
      Nancy L Bruns
      Joanne Burkhardt
      Robert H Burkhardt
      Burkhardt Family Trust
      Arvid E Burnham
      Wilma J Burnham
      Nancy L Cameron
      Louis E Carlin
      Charles J Chance
      Helen P Cleckner
      Helen P Cleckner Trust
      Judy M Columbus
      Thomas J Columbus
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 4
      —————————————————————————–
      Columbus Discovery Trust
      Kenneth L Colvin
      Laurie L Colvin
      Patty L Cooper
      Danielle Coplan
      Dylan Coplan
      Charles James Crimmins
      Melva Crimmins
      Eugene Criner
      Eva DeLange
      George N DeLange
      DeLange Revocable Living Trust
      Dolores Dubaskas
      George Dubaskas
      Roberta R Era
      Arthur Fabela
      Lois A Ferrell
      Truman L Ferrell
      Michael Fikes
      James Alan Flippen
      Karen Michelle Flippen
      Michelle Floyd
      Sallie Foster
      Sallie Foster Revocable Trust
      Stacy Gingrich
      Robert L Hart
      Ruth M Hart
      Hart Family Trust
      Kenneth M Headrick
      Diane J Helm
      Hugh L Helm
      Jennifer Herbert-Coplen
      Clifford Horozinski
      Shirley Horozinski
      George C Hunter
      Lilly K Hunter
      Rose Iannaccone
      Michelle Jacobson
      Robert W Kramer, Sr.
      Kramer 1995 Revocable Living Trust
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 5
      —————————————————————————–
      Steven Kremer
      Jim Kuempel
      Shelley Kuempel
      Norbert C Laskowski
      Shelli D Laskowski
      Ann C Lavit
      Tim J Lemieux
      Ariana LeRoy
      Kimberly LeRoy
      Bobby Lewis
      Philip W Lobeck
      Sandra S Lobeck
      Roger Loftman
      Shirley Loftman
      Anya Macri
      Francisco Macri
      Francesco Macri Trust
      Allison A Mazur
      Laurence McCracken
      Patricia McCracken
      Arlene G Miller
      Gail E Miller
      Keith D Miller
      James H Nagel
      Jeannie E Nelson
      Kevin O’Donnell
      Gaelyn Olmsted
      Dorman E Olson
      Chuck Overmyer
      Nina Bill Overmyer
      Rita Paulic
      Marvel A Peer
      Samuel E Peer
      Frank Alfred Pilarski
      Roy J Pizzirusso
      Stacy P Pizzirusso
      Mary Polley
      Doris Potter
      Lloyd Potter
      Vanessa A Purdy
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 6
      —————————————————————————–
      Vanessa A Purdy Living Trust
      Cheryl A Rascoe
      Kevin Rausch
      Wendy Rausch
      The Big Mama House Revocable Living Trust
      Leah D Reason
      Russell E Reason, Sr.
      Charles R Roberts
      Carole Ryan
      Julia Ryan
      Eileen A Sander
      Luther G Sander
      Luther G Sander and Eileen A Sander Family Trust
      Barbara Schlegel
      Wayne Schlegel
      Daniel W Schroeder
      Marvin D Shaw
      Sarah D Shaw
      Paul J Silvia
      Joel L Simmons
      June C Simmons
      Shannon Lyn Smith
      Diane Tackett
      Thomas Rogers, Jr.
      Vicki S Velasquez
      Vicki S Velasquez Trust
      Sage P Vissering
      James E Walker
      Beverly K Wallen
      Gary L Wallen
      Alexis Wasson
      Barnabas H Wasson
      Barnaby Wasson
      Maria Luisa V de Wasson
      Roy Wasson
      Beverly K Weichmann
      Patricia A Westall
      Robert L Westall
      Mary Westwood
      Steve E Wilbur
      —————————————————————————–

      Page 7
      —————————————————————————–
      Doris D Wilson
      John W Wilson
      Yarnell Market LLC
      Yarnell Ranch House Inc
      Judy Zobel

      Side 2. STATE OF ARIZONA, et al., Defendant/Appellee

      (Litigant Group) STATE OF ARIZONA et al.
      State of Arizona
      Arizona State Forestry Division

      Co-Counsel for: Defendants/Appellees
      Brock J Heathcotte, Esq. (AZ Bar No. 14466)
      Michael L Parrish, Esq. (AZ Bar No. 15956)

      PREDECESSOR CASE(S): MAR CV2014-007698
      Cause/Charge/Class Tort: Non-Motor Vehicle; Property Damage
      Judgment/Sentence: ( No entry )
      Judge, Role – Comments: J Richard Gama, Authoring Judge of Order
      Trial: ( No entry )
      Dispo: ( No entry )

      2 OPEN DUE DATES

      Response Due
      Due By: Monday, July 27, 2015
      Re: FILED: Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals; Certificate of Service for Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals (Appellant)

      Opening Brief due
      Due By: Monday, August 3, 2015
      Re: FILED: Notice to Parties re: Appellant’s Fee/Case Management Statement/Brief Due

      2 PENDING MATTERS

      Div 1 Request for Oral Argument – Filed: 12-Jun-2015
      Request for Oral Argument (Appellant)

      General Motion – Filed: 6-Jul-2015
      Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals (Appellant)

      8 PROCEEDING ENTRIES

      1. 28-May-2015 FILED: Index of Record, Notice of Appeal from Maricopa County Superior Court filed 04/29/15; Plaintiffs’ First Amended Notice of Appeal from Maricopa County Superior Court filed 5/4/15

      2. 28-May-2015 FILED: e-Record on Appeal: Instruments/Minute Entries

      3. 2-Jun-2015 FILED: Notice to Parties re: Appellant’s Fee/Case Management Statement/Brief Due

      4. 12-Jun-2015 FILED: Request for Oral Argument; Certificate of Service for Request for Oral Argument (Appellant)

      5. 17-Jun-2015 RECEIPT No.: 2015-00837 ; $280.00, Authorization: #67011291618,
      Applied to: GORDON ACRI et al. – Class A Filing Fee ($280.00)
      Paid for: Knapp & Roberts PC – By Integrated Resource Systems IN

      6. 22-Jun-2015 FILED: Appellee’s Notice re: No Appellee’s Fee Due/Appellant’s Brief Due

      7. 22-Jun-2015 FILED: Case Management Statement (Appellant)

      8. 6-Jul-2015 FILED: Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals; Certificate of Service for Joint Motion to Consolidate the Acri and Overmyer Appeals (Appellant)
      —————————————————————————–

      Reply

    • Oral arguments were heard yesterday & the Judge took the arguments under advisement and will rule within 60 days.

      Reply

      • A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry says
        JULY 25, 2015 AT 2:33 PM

        Oral arguments were heard yesterday & the Judge took the arguments under advisement and will rule within 60 days.

        THAT GIVES ME MORE TIME..THANK YOU LORD-
        THIS MIGHT BE A GOOD THING AFTER ALL-
        THANK YOU “AMLKNB”…
        I HAVE BEEN HELPING SONNY AND THIS WEEKEND I FIRMLY MADE TIME FOR JOY TO GET OVER A CONCERN AND UNSURE IF SONNY WANTS ME OR HIS SON TO GO TO HIS HEART SURGERY. MAKES SENSE FOR ME BECAUSE I HAVE ALL KNOWLEDGE WHERE TO GO WHEN WE GET TO TUCSON BUT THAT’S THE BEAUTY OF SONNY- YA JUST NEVER KNOW—
        BUT THIS WAS GREAT NEWS FROM YOU!
        I HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD ON ONE AREA THAT I CANNOT TALK YET ABOUT BUT I THINK IT MAY FINALLY COME TO LIGHT…FINGERS CROSSED. HARD TO DO ALOT I AM DOING WITHOUT PROPER RESOURCES AND GRANT SCOTT MCKEE STATED HE HAD THE RESOURCES BUT THERE HAS NOT BEEN A TIE IN ON THAT—SO STILL A SOLO JOURNEY TO DIG IN AREAS…

        Reply

  227. JOY

    Just for information Rod Wrench an old friend is recovering from Surgery He has stomach Cancer and They removed his Stomach about 3 weeks ago he is still in the hospital and a long ways to go with Chemo and Radiation The Last I herd still in good spirits and strength. He was the Superintendent of the Little T. Hot Shots Angeles NF along with Many other Wild Land Fire Jobs.
    Another one of those like me That kept their crews safe. Prayers for his recovery.

    Reply

    • Bob, most my family is gone due to cancer already. Did he have a total/subtotal/endoscopic? lymph nodes gone? The complexity of that surgery, Rod—so sorry. If you were in Arizona not too far—I would visit you, sir.
      the ol’ feeding tune phases—ugh—sorry Rod. stinks! As I mentioned you last night—you already are in my thoughts and prayers Rod—get well—keep the faith.

      What were the other jobs he had Bob in wildland firefighting?

      my cousin and many in my family- we all have had our long term struggles with that area.
      My cousin Lynn (http://vanmatres.com/web/index.php?option=com_mojo&Itemid=48&p=467)- I think her cancer began in the gall bladder or pancreas than just over time spread to the stomach then the whole upper extremities—it is a difficult journey especially as many girls as she had to love and care for and be the best mother I ever met besides my husband’s mother—and she was the LIFE when she entered a room. Too young—too sad…my aunt (lady cady) and my cosuin Lynn’s mom then died—some say heart concerns but these two shared one heart so I would say broken heart—(ht t p ://www.legacy.c o m/obituaries/app/obituary.aspx?n=edith-m-edwards-deluca&pid=162569564)
      Most of my family died already and if not due to 911 or thereafter…or to cancer…I know they are not here where I can “touch” them but yet THEY ARE HERE STILL TOUCHING MY LIFE. It is weird because it’s only something they would do…hard to explain…my dead pet does the same…Eric Marsh’s best friend Allen Sinclair and Grant Scott McKee helped me when they told me things that another does not know and I felt not alone…it is nice when you do not feel alone on such a foreign topic.

      Get well Rod…thank you for the updates Bob-

      Reply

      • He ended up an FMO in South Lake Tahoe I believe he worked quite awhile on the Angeles NF This came on the first of the year he was doing fine a year ago May. Quite a major operation to remove your stomach will let you know when I get updates.

        Reply

        • many complications can arise by that kind of surgery too. I seen good outcomes and bad…local miner George had damage to his kidneys during operation that the fluid dripped out of his body a golden color and I would tell the ol’ miner…you know what George…all this time you were looking for the “mother lode” and there it is–YOU…look at the gold just syrup’n from you…you are the mother lode–the golden one…he died soon after within 3.5 weeks after…kidneys shut down…he had this tattoo that said “drifter” and that he was…he hung out in the drifts…drift by drift looking for the gold…drinking his liquor at times very heavily—staggering down Yarnell main 89 drag and shouting and singing and just so very drunk staggering and walking from THE PLACE to behind the Ranch House restaurant where he had lived…lived alone next to Tommy Maiden “Snakeman” in Yarnell…he came to my home one time on way back from his doctors and said “Joy, I have watched you for years. You are a very intriguing person. You inspired me on days I said to myself I cannot go mining or go to town than I would see you walking from Congress to Wickenburg or to Yarnell and I would get going even on my dark days. Would you mind if we did pen pal bible studies?” I actually thought terrible idea after meeting recent faith folks who lived in Yarnell and moved to Congress…yet when I got the first letter left at my door I thought “okay”, clean writing. Shew. In his letters, he once shared a map of where he found potato size gold that he had shown me…you see, this is stuff I like…”exploring”…but it seems my life in 2015 got shifted to Sonny getting ALOT of monies and I was a side kick to watch him spend it ALL in the way he wanted for his own life and well, I have not done the very things I have a passion for…so I am growing firmer to separate my time with Sonny so I can get my exploring times in even if its taking out the Investigative Media mascot dog “Hope Honor Justice”—aka Mae West. I need to get my walks and hikes back into my life…or I feel “lost”…so maybe after Sonny recovers we can do just that…go explore for the potato patch.

          Reply

  228. Reply to “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry” post on July 24, 2015 at 8:31 pm,.

    >> On July 24, 2015 at 10:51 am, WantsToKnowTheTruth ( WTKTT ) asked…
    >>
    >> Do you know if there were any GAG orders associated with the recent
    >> settlements that the family members were also being forced to sign?
    >> I’m still trying to figure out why there is no publicly available copy of the
    >> document that actually codifies this ‘settlement’ between the family
    >> members and Arizona Forestry.
    >> We’re still dealing with just a lot of rumors regarding what may or may
    >> not actually be IN this settlement document.

    >> On July 24, 2015 at 8:31 pm,. “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry” replied…
    >>
    >> Am not aware of any GAG order.

    Thank you ( once again ) for taking the time to respond.

    That makes it all the more mysterious, then, WHY there is still no PUBLIC copy of this actual ‘settlement agreement’ between Arizona Foresty and the families of the fallen.

    One of the BIG questions that goes unaswered at this point is how much of this supposed ‘settlement agreement’ agreement is CODIFIED as being totally dependent on the cessation of ALL litigation.

    Example: This mysterious ‘8 hour question and answer’ session (supposedly) being ‘promised’ by Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney.

    According to reporter Nigel Duara of the Costa-Mesa “Daily Pilot”, even just this one PROMISED on the part of Whitney is TOTALLY dependent on the “cessation of ALL litigation”.

    We can only assume that means BOTH any ‘wrongful death’ suits AND the cessation of the APPEAL of the Property Damage lawsuits.

    So what ELSE is then, ALSO dependent on the “cessation of all litigation”?

    Can YOU shed any light on THAT mystery?

    1) Are the promised ‘settlement compensations’ ALSO totally dependent on that?

    2) Are any/all of the other ‘promises’ Whitney has (supposedly) made also dependent on that condition?

    If so.. this would amount to nothing more than a ‘lawyer’s trick’ to bring a tremendous amount of pressure on people like the FATHER and the MOTHER of deceased Hotshot Grant McKee ( and anyone else who doesn’t want to accept this one-sided settlement ) to abandon their search for the TRUTH.

    That is not NORMALLY what a settlement looks like in the case of multiple plaintiffs in a ‘wrongful death’ action. Normally… the defendants would settle with whoever they can but whoever does NOT agree to the offered terms is free to have their cases move to trial with there being NO AFFECT on the agreed-to terms for the plaintiffs who DID elect to ‘settle’ in the pre-trial phase.

    ** THE LONG STORY

    I’m going to just reproduce an exchange that Mr. Bob Powers and I had back in Chapter XV ( 15 ) of this ongoing discussion in order to illustrate the point I’m making and the question(s) I still have.

    If you have ANY information or knowledge about what the ACTUAL settlement agreement between Arizona Forestry and the families of the deceased has to say about WHEN all the ‘promises’ made will be fulfilled… and whether ALL the promies are dependent on the cessation of ALL litigation… please let us know.

    From Chapter XV ( 15 )…
    ================================================================================
    On July 3, 2015 at 6:44 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth (WTKTT) posted…

    Reply to Bob Powers post on July 3, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT You need to reread the above news release
    .>> Noted ___ When all litigations conclude including appeals then the
    >> State will discuss the information with the Families.

    Yes. You are right. Thank you.

    The article reporting about the remaining litigation on behalf of Marcia McKee, written by Nigel Duara of the “Daily Pilot”, DOES say that.

    Again.. that article is here…

    The Daily Pilot ( covering Newport and Costa-Mesa, California )
    Firefighters settlement in deadly wildfire includes dad of former Costa Mesa man
    Published: June 30, 2015, 5:42 p.m – By Nigel Duara
    http://www.dailypilot.com/news/tn-dpt-me-0701-mckee-settlement-20150630,0,7791868.story

    Actually… the article has a mysterious bit of detail in it as well with regards to
    this supposed “8 hour meeting”… and what it specifically says is the following…
    —————————————————————
    A common complaint from families of the dead Hotshots was that state officials did not fully explain what caused the tragedy and whether it could have been avoided. The Forestry Division agreed that when all litigation concludes, including appeals, it will have an eight-hour meeting with the families and consultants to review information about the fire and answer questions, with lawyers present.
    —————————————————————

    BTW: The “Daily Pilot” is NOT an Arizona newspaper. It’s mailing address is 10540 Talbert Ave., Suite 300 Fountain Valley, California, 92708, and the paper covers the Newport Beach and Costa Mesa, California areas. Marcia McKee lives in the Costat Mesa area so this was a “local story” for the “Dailly Pilot”.

    There is no reason to doubt this “Daily Pilot” article.

    The QUESTION would be… how do they know what they just printed including the specific detail that this Q/A session will be an “8 hour meeting”? ( Just ONE? ).

    AFAIK… a copy of the actual settlement agreement where kind of detail might be specified still hasn’t been “made available” to the press or to the public yet… and there is actually no good explanation why that is so… or WHEN it WILL be made available.

    Perhaps the “Daily Pilot” actually got that bit of detail from Mr. Scott McKee Sr., who WAS part of the 12 combined wrongful-death cases that just settled?

    Or maybe they actually had a COPY of the actual settlement agreement to read for themselves?

    Does the ACTUAL (written) settlement agreement actually say “not until all litigation has ceased” and does it actually (specifically) say there will be just this ONE “8 hour meeting”? If so… I wonder what ELSE it says?

    What I was going on was what attorney Pat McGroder said during the Settlement Press Conference the other day.

    Attorney Pat McGroder is the one who told the public, in the press conference, that as part of the settlement Arizona Forestry has PROMISED to (quote) “sit down with the families and answer their questions”. And not just ONCE, either.

    Mr. McGroder makes NO MENTION of there being any constraints or conditions regarding these “sit downs” and the impression he was giving everyone was that these Q/A sessions could now take place IMMEDIATELY.

    Here is exactly what attorney Pat McGroder said about this in the Settlement Press Conference…
    ————————————————————————
    +37:13
    ( Pat McGroder ): I’ll answer that question.

    Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy
    describe what he saw… what he heard that day.

    Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.

    But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge
    firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity
    of the committment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down
    with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer
    their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally
    or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.

    So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.
    ————————————————————————

    So there was the PERFECT ( and the APPROPRIATE ) opportunity for attorney Pat McGroder to inform everyone that one of the (apparent) CONDITONS of this part of the settlement agreement is that Arizona Forestry will still be REFUSING to open and honestly “answer any questions” about the fire and what happened… and what they may know that has never been made public or supplied via valid FOIA requests… only when all litigations and appeals have ceased.

    But McGroder obviously chose to NOT mention THAT part of the settlement.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> I would conclude that means the Mckee Law suit and any appeals.

    Yes. No other way to read that, really.

    If what the “Daily Pilot” is reporting is true then we have to also assume that means any/all appeals that stem from the unrelated “Property Damage” lawsuits filed against Arizona Forestry.

    And by ‘unrelated’… I simply meant that the Property Damage lawsuits are NOT ‘wrongful-death’ lawsuits.

    The cases obviously ARE related in that the same long list of Arizona Forestry employees and contractors could still be called to the witness stand as easily in the “Property Damage” suits as they could in any “wrongful death” proceeding.

    So even though the “Daily Pilot” article does not specifically mention the ‘Property Damage’ suits… if the actual recently-signed settlement document does contain specific language about “We will still answer NO questions from the families of the deceased until there is NO litigation or appeals still pending”… then it stands to reason that is talking about the “Property Damage” suits ( and the 160+ plaintiffs ) as well.

    =================================================================================
    END OF POSTING FROM CHAPTER XV ( 15 )

    Reply

    • I am not aware of any gag orders or any specifics of the settlement agreement. Sorry.

      Reply

      • A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry says
        JULY 25, 2015 AT 2:34 PM

        I am not aware of any gag orders or any specifics of the settlement agreement. Sorry.

        REPLY IN CAPS:
        SAME NEWS FROM THE ONES I KNOW TOO—

        Reply

  229. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 23, 2015 at 4:58 pm

    >> Joy A. Collura said…
    >>
    >> as of 7-22-15— still no signature.

    Copy that.

    There is also absolutely NO confirmation in the online ALJ Hearing File regarding the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” case that there has been any official END to THAT proceeding.

    There have still been no updates to (required) PUBLIC online ALJ Hearing File since May 28, 2015.

    If the proceeding has, in fact, been settled and the hearing that was already scheduled for October is now no longer on the court calendar… then there SHOULD be multiple notifications to that effect ( as required by Arizona Open Records laws ) appearing in that ALJ hearing file.

    There is nothing.

    Also… oddly enough… the man who considers himself the online EXPERT for all things LEGAL that pertain to FIRE related cases ( Curt Varone ) has specifically ( and publicly ) written that only THREE of the 12 ‘wrongful death’ cases that were ‘enjoined’ and all being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder have actually been ‘settled’.

    Curt Varone
    Firefighter LAW Blog

    40 years of Fire Service AND 30 years as a practicing attorney.

    Article Title: Yarnell Hill LODD ( Line Of Duty Death ) Settlement Announced
    http://www.firelawblog.com/2015/06/29/yarnell-hill-lodd-settlement-announced/

    The very first sentence of his article…
    ————————————————————————
    Three lawsuits filed last year by the families of twelve of the nineteen firefighters killed in the Yarnell Hill fire have been settled.
    ————————————————————————

    I don’t know if that’s a TYPO on his part, or whether Mr. Varone has more accurate information than others who have reported on the settlement… but he definitely says only THREE of the 12 lawsuits being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder have acutually been ‘settled’.

    I’m assuming that would be the ONLY THREE family members who actually appeared at the ‘settlement press conference’.

    Juliann Ashcraft ( Wife of Andrew Ashcraft )
    Deborah Pfingston ( Mother of Andrew Ashcraft )
    Roxanne Warneke ( Wife of Billy Warkneke )

    Also… there is still NO SIGN of any PUBLIC copy of this actual ‘settlement’ document that was announced at that ‘dog and pony’ show of a press conference a few weeks ago.

    That is the document that would spell out what all these ‘mysterious’ terms of the settlement are that were only casually mentioned during the press conference.

    Maybe there are MANY family members who have not ( and WILL not ) sign that settlement document.

    Also still no word about the 3 ‘wrongful death’ cases that were never even part of the 12 that were ‘enjoined’ and all being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder.

    Those would be the ones that are still listed as ‘active’ cases over in Maricopa County District Court where they were all first filed.

    Those are the 3 ‘wrongful death’ suits filed on behalf of GM Hotshots Grant McKee ( by his mother, Marcia McKee ) and family members of GM Hotshots Jesse Steed and John Percin, Jr.

    As far as I can tell.. those THREE ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits are still just as active as they were before any kind of ‘settlement’ was announced pertaining to the McGroder cases over in Federal Court.

    The MSM ( Mainstream Media ) is REALLY falling down on this one and needs to find out what the REAL story is with this ‘settlement’ deal, and the other ‘wrongful death’ cases over in Maricopa County District Court.

    Reply

    • Interesting Thanks WTKTT
      I am still checking on here but we seem to have hit a where do we go from here STOP.

      Reply

      • I don’t think so.

        A “lull in the action”, maybe… but surely there is “more to come”.

        Regardless of the fact that we know at least ONE of the 12 ‘enjoined’ lawsuit plaintiffs ( Grant McKee’s father ) has NOT ‘agreed’ to this (supposed) settlement…

        …If I am WRONG about there being at least THREE other ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits fully active over in Maricopa County District Court…

        …I wish someone would say so.

        On June 30, 2015 ( the day after this supposed ‘settlement’ was announced ) attorney Michael C. Sheedy of the Phoenix, Arizona lawfirm “Knapp and Roberts” told the Costa-Mesa “Daily Pilot” that he and his client Marcia McKee have not only NEVER been part of those other ’12’ enjoined lawsuits being handled by attorney Pat McGroder… he and his client ( Marcia McKee ) have never even been APPROACHED by Arizona Forestry with any kind of ‘settlement’ offer.

        And the current Maricopa Country District Court records show that Marcia McKee’s fully-active wrongful death claim has also been ‘enjoined’ with TWO other fully-active wrongful death claims on behalf of family members for both Jesse Steed and John Percin, Jr.

        So someone tell me ( please ) what I am MISSING here?

        I count that as at least FOUR ‘wrongful death’ cases that are STILL headed to trial, unless we hear different.

        And if we discover that really only THREE of the 12 ‘enjoined’ cases/plaintiffs being handled by Pat McGroder have actually ‘agreed’ to this supposed settlement ( Ashcraft, Pfingston, and Warneke )…

        …that makes it TWELVE still fully-active cases headed to trial.

        Reply

    • Continued…

      Marcia McKee filed the very FIRST ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit related to the Yarnell incident.

      Her original “Notice of Claim” and the eventual actual suit filing were both handled by attorney Craig Knapp of the Phoenix, Arizona Law Firm “Knapp and Roberts”.

      In an article that appeared just this past June 30 in the Costa Mesa, California publication known as “The Daily Pilot”, right after the (supposed) ‘settlement’ was announced… proof is given that BOTH the father and the mother of Grant McKee filed SEPARATE ‘wrongful death’ actions on behalf of their son… using SEPARATE attorneys and law firms…

      The Daily Pilot
      Article: Firefighters settlement
      Published June 30, 2015 by Nigel Duara
      http://www.dailypilot.com/news/tn-dpt-me-0701-mckee-settlement-20150630,0,7791868.story

      ———————————————————————
      A recent settlement between Arizona and the families of a dozen firefighters who were killed in one of the deadliest wildfires in the nation’s history includes the father of former Costa Mesa resident Grant McKee Jr.

      McKee was one of the 19 Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew members who died on June 28, 2013, while battling the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona.

      According to an announcement Monday — one day before the second anniversary of the deaths — families of 12 of the firefighters reached a settlement with the state, ending a strained yearlong negotiation that divided the town of Prescott and raised questions about training and how the state fights fires.

      The 12 families, including McKee’s father Grant McKee Sr., will receive $50,000 each, according to a copy of the settlement agreement.

      Another lawsuit brought by McKee’s mother, Costa Mesa resident Marcia McKee, is still pending, according to attorney Michael C. Sheedy.

      Her $36-million claim was brought separately from the other 12 families in November 2013, and she hasn’t yet been approached with a settlement offer, Sheedy said.
      ———————————————————————

      Apparently… the information in this article regarding the one lawsuit filed by Grant McKee’s FATHER is NOT CORRECT.

      Apparently, Grant McKee’s FATHER has NOT agreed to the ‘settlement’ that has already been announced by Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, and he has ( as of yesterday ) NOT signed any such paperwork saying he DOES agree to ‘settle’ his own ‘wrongful death’ claim at this time.

      And unless he does… then the law says that HIS ‘wrongful death’ suit is allowed to ‘proceed to trial’ regardless of what any of the other 12 ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs decide to do or not do.

      As for the information in the article regarding Marcia McKee’s separate ‘wrongful death’ suit filed in Maricopa District Court… the fact that attorney “Craig Knapp” was not the one making these comments on behalf of Marcia McKee in the article doesn’t meant she has ‘changed law firms’ since originally filing her own ‘wrongful death’ suit.

      Attorney Michael C. Sheedy actually WORKS for the same “Knapp and Roberts” law firm in Phoenix, Arizona, that Marcia McKee used for the original filing of her own ( separate ) ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit.

      Reply

    • “A mother’s love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity. It dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path …”
      Agatha Christie

      Hello Bob, Gary, John, Joy, Marty, Sonny, & WTKTT,

      This has been a long time coming and way past due but for specific reasons it was advised not to become involved, so you were silently cheered on from the shadows, First, to each of you for your hard work, diligently uncovering and bringing to light the truth, the lies and the cover ups, thank you, thank you, thank you from the bottom of our hearts When you were wondering if it meant anything to anybody, it very much has..

      Hoping to impart some answers regarding the settlement offers & agreements pertaining to the consolidated cases involving the families of Grant McKee, John Percin, & Jesse Steed.
      In the matters of Percin & Steed their cases have a settled or have dispositions.

      Marcia McKee’s case is on calendar for July 24th (tomorrow) for oral arguments re: Defendants Motion to Dismiss. If you believe in prayer &/or positive energy, now is time. We all know the reasons we need this case to go forward.

      In early May, Ms. McKee attended the mediation conference along with the 12 other families (although separated).. She was made the same offer of $50,000. and what she felt were overly broad and vague statements towards changes. At the end of mediation she was told the 12 families accepted the Arizona’s Forestry Dept., settlement offer. The families who didn’t file lawsuits will be given $10,000..

      McGroder didn’t feel confident he could win the case. The families felt it was better to accept the settlement offers and see some changes opposed to nothing at all.

      In Marcia McKee’s case either she accepted the $50,000. or receive nothing. Not even inclusion in the 8 hour question & answer to be held in the future. Last week another offer of $50,000. was on the table. True to her beliefs of wanting to see this case go forward for answers she declined. .

      It is unfathomable how a state agency can fairly investigate itself? How can they place a gag order and redact all the statements of their personnel and basically say screw you we killed your loved one and choose not to answer how that happened. How and why is that allowed to happen? Isn’t it obvious they are hiding something? Seems to me at least one of the politicians at the memorial for the Hot Shots would have become involved.

      Thank you John Dougherty for being the person to investigate the events leading to death of 19 loved ones, making public all the pictures and documents through your web site, and giving voice to those who want to contribute but must remain anonymous (God bless them). Moreover, for informing the public about information which was omitted from the formal investigations & answering the many questions which quite possibly would have remained hidden had it not been for you.

      Reply

      • Reply to “A Mothers Love Knows No Boundary” post on July 23, 2015 at 9:50 pm

        First and foremost… thank YOU for that important ‘update’.

        With regards to the ‘oral arguments’ tomorrow in the Marcia McKee wrongful death case that is still fully ‘active’ in Maricopa County District Court…

        …it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Arizona Forestry’s request for an outright dismissal of the ‘wrongful death’ will be granted.

        It is a GIVEN, in ‘wrongful death’ cases, that the defendant will make such a filing REGARDLESS of the evidence. It is almost a REQUIRED thing to do and sometimes if the defendant doesn’t file this obligatory ‘motion to dismiss’… the Judge in the case will actually URGE them to do so just from a ‘normal procedure’ standpoint.

        I will be astonished if the Judge actually grants such a ‘motion’ in this case.

        If ever there were ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits that DESERVED a full and complete hearing in a courtroom… with full and complete testimony ( under penalty of perjury ) from ALL the witnesses and participants in the incident…

        …it would be THESE ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

        The WORLD was asked to mourn ALL of these men.
        The WORLD still stands waiting to know what actually happened.

        It only takes ONE suit to remain active in order for ALL of the right witnesses to be called to the stand and finally tell the FULL truth… and not just the part of it that meets their own personal agendas.

        Question for you…

        You say that the wrongful death suits filed in Maricopa County District Court on behalf of Jesse Steed and John Percin have ‘settled’.

        Do you recall WHEN that happened?

        Were THEY also just part of the ‘global mediation’ related to the other 12 cases being handled exclusively by Pat McGroder?

        Or were those settlements just completely separate and apart from those negotiations and were done on a different timetable?

        The Maricopa County Distrcit Court records ( as of today ) still show those two ‘wrongful death’ actions as ‘active’ cases and still ‘enjoined’ with the Marcia McKee filing ( at least for the current ‘discovery’ phase ).

        Also… we know of at least ONE person involved in the 12 cases being handled by McGroder who has NOT signed the ‘settlement’ documents and (apparently) has no intention of doing so. That would be Grant McKee’s father.

        Do you know, for sure and certain, if ALL of the other 11 plaintiffs in those ‘enjoined’ suits being handled exclusively by McGroder have, in fact, SIGNED all the relevant documents indicating they ACCEPT this ‘supposed’ settlement?

        Reply

        • Followup…

          It is absolutely ASTOUNDING to hear that actual in-court ‘oral arguments’ are going to take place TOMORROW in a case involving the death of one the Granite Mountain Hotshots…

          …and BOTH the established Arizona AND National MSM ( Mainstream Media ) seems totally oblivious to this fact and have said NOTHING about it.

          If there was ever any valid justification for WHY this ongoing forum should exist… and WHY we should keep the “pedal to the metal” doing what WE have been doing all along ( searching for the truth when no one else seems to care )…

          …this would be it.

          Reply

          • Sorry I replied under wrong post.

            Oral arguments will be heard in Judge Gama’s courtroom.

            Reply

            • Copy that.

              Again… THANK YOU so much for these updates on this VERY important matter.

              Since last night I have had four computers constantly scanning the ‘airwaves’ for ANY mention of this event and/or results.

              It is now mid-afternoon and there has been NOTHING appearing on either any Arizona or MSM outlet.

              Not even any mention that it is happening.

              You might be in a position to hear what happened before the media does.

              If that is the case… would you mind letting US know what happened if/when you hear something?

              Thanks in advance.

              Reply

              • UPDATE TO ORAL ARGUMENTS
                Judge Gama has taken the arguments under advisement and will rule within 60 days. LEASE KEEP YOUR FINGERS CROSSED!

                Reply

                • Once again… THANK YOU!

                  I doubt it will take 60 days.

                  This Judge needs to remember that this is already scheduled to be a JURY trial… and it is NOT his job to rule singly on the MERITS and FACTS of the case.

                  Indeed… the true FACTS regarding the incident have YET to emerge… and that would be the PURPOSE of letting it go to trial.

                  We still don’t even know if the move out of the black was happening under direct orders/directives/strong-suggestions from others in fire command… and you have a witness who has never fully testified truthfully who SEEMS to already know the answer to that running around making book deals.

                  The Judge MUST take into consideration that for all intents and purposes… this incident has NEVER really been properly ‘investigated’ at all… and whatever arguments the Arizona Forestry lawyers are making for dismissal are only based on PARTIAL evidence and are, essentially, just their OPINIONS.

                  The Arizona Foestry lawyers are pitching like “Rembrant Pitchers” and they are “painting the corners” of the plate at this point and just hoping the umpire calls one of them as “strike three”.

                  He SHOULD side with the ‘plaintiffs’ here.

                  That doesn’t mean he SUPPORTS the plaintiffs or their claims or that there is then any guarantee the plaintiffs will ‘win’ the ‘ballgame’….

                  …but it’s not his JOB to determine that.

                  All he has to do is LET it go to trial, as it should, and let 12 good citizens of Arizona decide what really happened that day.

                  Grant McKee himself ( Rest in Peace ) DESERVES his ‘day in court’.

                  Reply

          • First —-A Mothers Love—
            Thank you for your Information and Please come back here to answer a few questions. We have been out of the legal loop and need some basic information if you can provide it.

            This Story needs a full airing and I hope the McKee case will get that.
            Unless the case is closed to the Public I would think the Oral Arguments could be open to anyone including the News media. Maybe Arizona Central will be there. we can hope—-

            Reply

        • I will be astonished if the Judge actually grants such a ‘motion’ in this case.

          The WORLD was asked to mourn ALL of these men.
          The WORLD still stands waiting to know what actually happened. …

          We’re praying it won’t be granted & will be an unbelievably sad day on so many levels.

          Question for you…

          You say that the wrongful death suits filed in Maricopa County District Court on behalf of Jesse Steed and John Percin have ‘settled’. Do you recall WHEN that happened?

          ANSWER: Wasn’t told the actual date. Believe it within past 2 weeks.

          Were THEY also just part of the ‘global mediation’ related to the other 12 cases being handled exclusively by Pat McGroder?

          ANSWER: Not handled by McGroder but Knapp.

          Or were those settlements just completely separate and apart from those negotiations and were done on a different timetable?

          ANSWER: Global mediation took place in early May. All families who agreed to mediation were required to attend. Same day, time & location. Offers were made and as told, offers were accepted on behalf of the 12 ‘McGroder’ families.
          Of the 3 consolidated SUPERIOR court cases, they were handled by Knapp and the families were apart from each other (Marcia McKee was separate & separated from the 12 & the same from Percin & Steed families). I’m not positive if Steed & Percin cases were settled then or a later date. Believe the later to be true.

          The Maricopa County Distrcit Court records ( as of today ) still show those two ‘wrongful death’ actions as ‘active’ cases and still ‘enjoined’ with the Marcia McKee filing ( at least for the current ‘discovery’ phase )

          ANSWER: My guess is the document(s) will be filed tomorrow (don’t quote me but makes sense).

          Also… we know of at least ONE person involved in the 12 cases being handled by McGroder who has NOT signed the ‘settlement’ documents and (apparently) has no intention of doing so. That would be Grant McKee’s father.

          Do you know, for sure and certain, if ALL of the other 11 plaintiffs in those ‘enjoined’ suits being handled exclusively by McGroder have, in fact, SIGNED all the relevant documents indicating they ACCEPT this ‘supposed’ settlement?

          ANSWER: Sorry, do not know the answer. My understanding is Scott, Grant’s father did not attend global mediation meeting.*

          *Grant’s fathers name is Grant Scott McKee & goes by Scott or G. Scott
          McKee.. His fathers name was also Grant
          Younger Grant is Grant Quinn McKee.

          Reply

          • Thank you so much for taking the time to answer. That brings clarity to a VERY confusing situation.

            So the bottom line now, it seems, is that there are only TWO remaining ‘wrongful death’ suits which still have a chance of proceeding to trial… and in TWO different court systems.

            ONE is the suit brought by Grant McKee’s father that was part of the 12 consolidated cases being handled by attorney Pat McaGroder. Sources say that even as of yesterday he has NOT signed any documents indicating he accepts any ‘settlement’ of his case… and that he (apparently) has no intentions of doing so.
            That means his case ( in Federal court ) gets automatically ‘decoupled’ from the consolidation and proceeds to trial on its own… and with or without the attorney that was initially handling it (McGroder).

            The SECOND ‘wrongful death’ case that has a chance of proceeding to trial is the one filed by Grant McKee’s mother, Marcia McKee. That’s the one over in Maricopa County District Court being handled by the law firm “Knapp and Roberts”.

            I hope that BOTH of these cases stay ‘on track’ and go all the way to trial in these TWO different court systems with TWO separate Judges overseeing them.

            Another question for you.

            Do you know if there were any GAG orders associated with the recent settlements that the family members were also being forced to sign?

            I’m still trying to figure out why there is no publicly available copy of the document that actually codifies this ‘settlement’ between the family members and Arizona Forestry.

            We’re still dealing with just a lot of rumors regarding what may or may not actually be IN this settlement document.

            Reply

              • Reply to “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry”
                post on July 24, 2015 at 8:31 pm

                >> “A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry” said…
                >>
                >> Am not aware of any GAG order.

                Thank you ( once again ) for taking the time to answer.

                That just makes it all the more mysterious, then, WHY there is still no publicly available copy of this actual ‘settlement agreement’ between Arizona Forestry and the families of the fallen.

                I posted a longer reply up above which includes a question as to whether you know if ALL of the ‘promises’ talked about during the press conference are absolutely dependent on the cessation of ALL litigation… including the suits that might be going forward on the part of those who are NOT going to accept this one-sided settlement.

                If you click the link below… your browser will “jump up” to the new parent comment…

                http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xvi/#comment-303028

                Reply

          • Mother’s love

            I hope you realize why we are so dedicated on this site to find the truth.

            We want to know exactly what went wrong so that we can prevent this type of incident and the pain it caused from ever happening again.

            I am sure some of the stuff we post is hard for you to read, but in order to uncover the clear truth, we have to go there. I am sorry if anyone here causes you distress, but we have a larger, more significant goal… THE TRUTH.

            Reply

      • Thank you for including me and even though I know I can be abrasive, I do want you and everyone else to know that I still grieve almost every day for all 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots and that certainly includes Eric and Jesse.

        And I completely understand why everyone did what they did and I know I could have done the exact same thing they did. And I do know I made similar mistakes myself, but I was lucky enough to have a different outcome.

        I just wish I could have been with them at the top of the that box canyon as so many other current and former wildland firefighters do in the belief that perhaps we could have changed the outcome of that terrible day that has dramatically changed and destroyed so many lives.

        And I pray I am wrong about many things.

        Reply

        • To Rocksteady, Gary. Joy:

          I need to clarify I am not Marcia but a friend of hers. Anything directed to her I tell her & will post her response. I update her with new information or a particularly good rant (wink wink Gary).

          She most definitely knows why you’ve spent 2 years recreating the events of the fire, sometimes second by second. At times, its just not a good day to hear or read anything about the fire. If she were to read all of this everyday I don’t think her heart would ever start to heal. For me being here at this site has been healing. Had life just carried on after the investigations without any answers it would have driven me crazy.

          Knowing the truth may be painful but you can heal having that knowledge. When you have unanswered questions your mind keeps returning to them, not allowing your heart to heal. The reason for her lawsuit is exactly what she says for changes and the truth. It wasn’t to point a finger and place blame. Can you imagine always wondering ‘what’s behind the gag order?’ Actions like that causes animosity.

          If it wasn’t for everybody who has shared info here I don’t think she’d ever know. Never have I seen her show anger or heard one negative comment about Eric or Jesse (or any individual for that fact). As with the other families they lost a loved one and she just wanted to know the truth.

          You never know what will bring the tears (like Gary’s post above). So many times I’ve read and felt everybody’s sorrow here and share those with Marcia and she knows you mourn with her.

          Joy, we get you. Who knows causes us to bond to certain people/situations so strongly. I’ve experienced it myself before. Maybe you knew one, a few, or all 19 souls during another time. Your efforts are appreciated and I hope one day it will be revealed to you why you so strongly seek the truth.

          Sorry for the lengthy post. I wish I could make each one of you feel the appreciation we have for your time and talents. It’s been amazing to watch a group of people with hugely diverse backgrounds and personalities come together, bringing their talents, knowledge, & info, treating each other with respect for the purpose of finding the truth. Very cool..

          Reply

      • When I first saw message today from “A Mothers Love Knows No Boundary”…my whole being was drawn to my younger days at the Crystal Cathedral with my grandparents and cousin Tammy on our trips we always took all over everywhere—I have not changed much to this very day—still on the trails—just the desert walker nowadays. The image is like I am there as if no time has passed by. Then you Kevin Woyjeck pop in…my lips went nuts shivering and my eyes fill up heavy with tears as I had this image in my mind as I read the comments…Gosh darn it. I am falling down to my knees and my eyes flooded with tears. WHY LORD…WHY can’t you get these folks to SPEAK UP “finally”. It just rips me up. This is NOT RIGHT…no….nah, it is way wrong…is this Anna writing this? It really does not need a public name but I want you to know all affected by the YHF…until the day I pass on I will keep my door open to find out more on this fire…all 19 should be here and as well as the damages done that weekend—none of it should of happened.
        DEEP SIGH. I will not let that memory fall…I will treasure them all…some may forget now that you are gone…but I will make sure people remember no matter how long…
        I AM heart broken. We spend our entire life protecting our children but this IN HOUSE mentality is not “protecting”- it is damaging and more lives keep being lost…SPEAK UP! I know we already know that gps was covered during investigations but my mother has apps like you would not believe that she can know where I am at always just by a phone app…sheriff found me one time just by my cell…19 elite men (my heroes) DESERVE an in depth investigation…I hope we all can be infectious enough on the Investigative Media that it brings a fire within more people to share and open up no matter HOW MUCH time has already has passed by.

        Reply

        • This is one mother that took the time out to write on IM for us all— which would mean rocksteady and retired 38 and Fred and EN and let us thank the following for their time spent here as well just to name a few; Sitta, Rod Wrench, G. Parson, Larry Sall, Otis Thompson, Suzanne Flynn, Mike, Mark Stegeman, George Atwood, David Turbyfill, Deborah Pfingston, Jim Brenner, B Gillaspie, H. Ellen, William Riggles, J Golden, Jeremy and Danne, Greg Ross, Jimmy Blaze, Elaine, Melody,Sue Jorgensen, Flynn, Barbara Maack, Nancy Montoya,Wayne Logan, Elizabeth Groom, Robert Plant, Linn, Danny King,Dixter, Brian T. Miller, Russell Lowes, Ron Anderson , Avery Haggard , Dan Key, Henry Shatney, Marcia Weary,Pat Byrnes, Steve Delgadillo,John Bates, xxfullsailxx, The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive, Calvin, Robert the Second, SR, Eric, D105, Roberta Era, J. Stout,Nick Sundt, WFF, fyrestorm, NV, h tt p ://www.investigativemedia. co m/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation-ignored-major-mistakes-by-the-state/#comment-3757 , RJ, —

          I cannot describe how special this day is to me due to this mother’s message. I am wearing a warm comforting smile. Thank you kindly for stopping here on I M; received graciously. Sure hope this is your time to spend time with us more than just a pop in—

          REPLY BELOW IN CAPS:

          A Mothers Love Knows No Boundary says
          JULY 23, 2015 AT 9:50 PM

          “A mother’s love for her child is like nothing else in the world. It knows no law, no pity. It dares all things and crushes down remorselessly all that stands in its path …”
          Agatha Christie
          SOUP FOR THE SOUL YOU SHARED—
          Hello Bob, Gary, John,

          JoyHELLO. IF I HAVE NOT MET YOU YET IN PERSON BECAUSE I HAVE MET SOME…NICE TO MEET YOU IN CYBER WORLD.
          , Marty,

          SonnyI DID READ ONE MESSAGE TO SONNY OF YOURS WHEN AT VA THIS MORNING WITH SONNY…HE IS IN ALOT OF PAIN AND HAS HEART SURGERY COMING UP THIS WEEK—HE WILL REPLY NEXT TIME ONLINE BUT HE DOES NOT GET ON ALOT…’

          , & WTKTT,

          This has been a long time coming AND WARMLY APPRECIATED. and way past dueNAH. PERFECT TIMING! but for specific reasonsLIKE WHAT? LITIGATIONS? PERSONAL? it was advised not to become involved,IT IS AN UNUSUAL MEETING SPOT ONLINE TO TALK YARNELL HILL FIRE AND THE LOSS OF 19 GOOD MEN AND PART OF A TOWN AND I ALSO HAVE BEEN ADVISED THE SAME YET I WANT AND NEED JOHN DOUGHERTY’S INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA TO HELP IN MY OWN PERSONAL HEALING…I STILL SEE THEIR FACES FROM 6-30-13 CLEAR AS DAY AT THIS VERY MOMENT. I FEEL THEY MAY BE IN A BETTER SPOT BUT I ALSO NEED TO EXHAUST HOW THEY GOT THERE AND LOOK AT EVERY POSSIBILITY AND DOCUMENT AS MUCH AS I AM SHOWN—I AM ONE OF THE ONES FROM DAY ONE WHO WAS ON THE WEAVERS AND FEEL THIS SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED. HOW COME SO MANY PEOPLE NEVER MADE IT TO THE INVESTIGATION REPORT THAT WAS ON THAT FIRE? so you were silently cheered on from the shadows,I WOULD NOT SAY SHADOWS—YOU BROUGHT LIGHT TO ME TODAY—ALOT OF IT TOO. First, to each of you for your hard work, diligently uncovering and bringing to light the truth, the lies and the cover ups, thank you, thank you, thank you YOU ARE WELCOME AND THAT COMES FROM BOTH SONNY AND JOYfrom the bottom of our hearts SOFT SMILES. When you were wondering if it meant anything to anybody, it very much has..GOOD TO READ! YET I THINK ALL ON I M NEVER DID THIS FOR THAT…WE ALL JUST WANT TO KNOW WHY AND HOWS…THAT IS ALL. HAD I NOT BEEN ON THE WEAVERS I WONDER WOULD I HAVE STILL BEEN AT IT TO THIS DAY…

          Hoping to impart some answers regarding the settlement offers & agreements pertaining to the consolidated cases involving the families of Grant McKee, John Percin,I WISH WE HEARD MORE ON JOHN— & Jesse Steed.
          In the matters of Percin & Steed their cases have a settled or have dispositions.THANK YOU FOR THE INFORMATION.

          Marcia McKee’s case is on calendar for July 24th (tomorrow) HOW WAS IT? for oral arguments re: Defendants Motion to Dismiss. HOLY CRAP! If you believe in prayer &/or positive energy, now is time. YOU BET. We all know the reasons we need this case to go forward. EXACTLY.

          In early May, Ms. McKee attended the mediation conference along with the 12 other families (although separated).. She was made the same offer of $50,000. and what she felt were overly broad and vague statements towards changes. THANK YOU—I FELT THE SAME. At the end of mediation she was told the 12 families accepted the Arizona’s Forestry Dept., settlement offer. THAT WAS FALSE- WHO TOLD HER THAT. HER OWN EX HAD NOT YET SIGNED EVEN UP UNTIL 7-22-15 The families who didn’t file lawsuits will be given $10,000..WOW, RING IN HERE OTIS THOMPSON…PLACE ARTICLE AGAIN HERE…WOW…SHAKING HEAD.

          McGroder didn’t feel confident he could win the case.IT DOES REQUIRE SOME ADDITIONAL PEOPLE TO BE IN ROOM WITH COURT REPORTER AND GIVE A DEPOSITION AND THAN MCGRODER COULD FEEL VERY CONFIDENT… The families felt it was better to accept the settlement offers and see some changes opposed to nothing at all.FIRE FIGHTING IS ALL OF OURS’ FIGHT—WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES—

          In Marcia McKee’s case either she accepted the $50,000. or receive nothing.REALLY???

          Not even inclusion in the 8 hour question & answer to be held in the future. Last week another offer of $50,000. was on the table. True to her beliefs of wanting to see this case go forward for answers she declined. .THANK YOU MARCIA AND THANK YOU GRANT SCOTT MCKEE FOR YOUR DELAYS IN SIGNING (LEARNED NOT JUNIOR BECAUSE HIS SON WAS QUINN NOT SCOTT) WE WILL TRY AND GET THE INFORMATION YOU NEED BUT IT REALLY REQUIRES MORE PEOPLE SPEAKING UP.

          It is unfathomable how a state agency can fairly investigate itself? EXACTLY.

          How can they place a gag order I AM NOT FOLLOWING…WHO WAS GAGGED? I KNOW SOME HAVE IN HOUSE MENTALITY THEY TOLD ME BUT SO FAR NONE HAVE TOLD ME THEY WERE LEGALLY GAGGED BUT MOST JUST AFRAID OF LOSING THEIR JOBS/CAREERS and redact all the statements of their personnelSAW THAT FOR SURE- and basically say screw you we killed your loved one and choose not to answer how that happened. THAT IS THE HARD PART FOR ME—YOU NAILED IT…How and why is that allowed to happen? SHAKING MY HEAD ALWAYS ON THAT Isn’t it obvious they are hiding something?HIDING SOMETHING? OR OMITTING OR JUST LEAVING OUT BECAUSE IF PEOPLE IN THE WORLD KNEW THE TRUTH- COULD THEY HANDLE IT? Seems to me at least one of the politicians at the memorial for the Hot Shots would have become involved.OR LIKE SONNY SAYS—THE FBI-

          Thank you John DoughertyEXACTLY. THANK YOU JOHN DOUGHERTY. for being the person to investigate the events leading to death of 19 loved ones, making public all the pictures and documents through your web site, and giving voice to those who want to contribute but must remain anonymous (God bless them). I AM NOT ANONYMOUS—I SHOULD HAVE THOUGH PROBABLY…Moreover, for informing the public about information which was omitted from the formal investigations CLAP CLAP CLAP& answering the many questions which quite possibly would have remained hidden had it not been for you.RIGHT ON
          A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry says
          JULY 24, 2015 AT 2:20 AM

          Sorry I replied under wrong post.

          Oral arguments will be heard in Judge Gama’s courtroom.
          A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry says
          JULY 24, 2015 AT 2:17 AM
          ht tp ://www.azcentral.co m/story/news/arizona/2015/04/29/judge-dismisses-yarnell-homeowners-lawsuit-arizona/26585747/
          ht tp ://dcourier.c om/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=144797
          htt p://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/JudicialBiographies/Judges/judicialBio.asp?jdgID=28&jdgUSID=130

          I will be astonished if the Judge actually grants such a ‘motion’ in this case.I WON’T BE…I AM A VERY OPTIMISITIC GAL BUT I HAVE SEEN HOW THIS IS GOING AND KINDA GOES LIKE…READ GARY’S COMMENTS—OR SONNY’S—HOPELESS ROMANTIC WANTS TO HOPE FOR THE RIGHT THING…

          The WORLD was asked to mourn ALL of these men. YOU BET
          The WORLD still stands waiting to know what actually happened. …I THINK THE WORLD IS MORE CONCERNED HOW COME THE LOVED ONES WERE NOT GIVEN FULL PURITY IN THIS ALL FROM THE MENS’ EMPLOYERS AND HIGHER UPS AND PEOPLE THE 19 USE TO CALL FRIENDS…WE MOURN YET WE MORE AWAIT THE DAY YOU ALL GET ANSWERS…

          We’re praying it won’t be granted & will be an unbelievably sad day on so many levels.
          IT SEEMS MY LOOK AT THIS ALL …YOUR PAIN IS THEIR GAIN…SCREWED UP WORLD AND SYSTEM…BUT IF IT IS NOT WHAT YOU EXPECT FROM IT—YOUR TIME WILL ARRIVE—

          CAN YOU SOME DAY DESCRIBE THE INFORMATION THAT WAS GIVEN TO YOU THEN FROM THEIR EMPLOYERS IN THE START AND HOW IT IS DIFFERENT “NOW” AND WHAT SOLUTION WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE FROM THIS…
          I PERSONALLY HAVE HEARD A NUMBER OF LOVED ONES WERE KEPT OUT OF THE LOOP AND STILL ARE…

          Question for you…

          You say that the wrongful death suits filed in Maricopa County District Court on behalf of Jesse Steed and John Percin have ‘settled’. Do you recall WHEN that happened?

          ANSWER: Wasn’t told the actual date. Believe it within past 2 weeks.OH—
          THIS SAME CASE:
          ht t p://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.g ov/docket/CivilCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2014-009160

          Were THEY also just part of the ‘global mediation’ related to the other 12 cases being handled exclusively by Pat McGroder?

          ANSWER: Not handled by McGroder but Knapp. KNAPP ON JUNE 29 9:20PM DIRECTLY SAID TO ME “DON’T WORRY. I WILL NOT SETTLE FOR 50K PER FAMILY. THE STATE KNOWS THAT. I’VE LITIGATED AGAINST THEM MANY TIMES. THE APPEALS WILL BE FILED.”

          Or were those settlements just completely separate and apart from those negotiations and were done on a different timetable?

          ANSWER: Global mediation took place in early MayDID ACTUAL HOMEOWNERS OF YARNELL SIT IN ON THIS? TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT MEDIATION LOBECK ATTENDED?. All families who agreed to mediation were required to attend. Same day, time & location. Offers were made and as told, offers were accepted on behalf of the 12 ‘McGroder’ families.GRANT SCOTT MCKEE—THE MYSTERY TRAVELER…WAS HE THERE? (SOFT SMILES)

          Of the 3 consolidated SUPERIOR court cases, they were handled by Knapp and the families were apart from each other (Marcia McKee was separate & separated from the 12 & the same from Percin & Steed families). I’m not positive if Steed & Percin cases were settled then or a later date. Believe the later to be true.OK

          The Maricopa County Distrcit Court records ( as of today ) still show those two ‘wrongful death’ actions as ‘active’ cases and still ‘enjoined’ with the Marcia McKee filing ( at least for the current ‘discovery’ phase )

          ANSWER: My guess is the document(s) will be filed tomorrow (don’t quote me but makes sense).RIGHT

          Also… we know of at least ONE person involved in the 12 cases being handled by McGroder who has NOT signed the ‘settlement’ documents and (apparently) has no intention of doing so. That would be Grant McKee’s father. AS OF 7-22 HE HAD NOT YET…DOES NOT MEAN HE WON’T…

          Do you know, for sure and certain, if ALL of the other 11 plaintiffs in those ‘enjoined’ suits being handled exclusively by McGroder have, in fact, SIGNED all the relevant documents indicating they ACCEPT this ‘supposed’ settlement?

          ANSWER: Sorry, do not know the answer. My understanding is Scott, Grant’s father did not attend global mediation meeting.*PROBABLY…

          *Grant’s fathers name is Grant Scott McKee & goes by Scott or G. Scott
          McKee.. His fathers name was also Grant
          Younger Grant is Grant Quinn McKee.

          Reply

        • REPLY BELOW IN CAPS- REAL BRIEF—HAVE TO QUICKLY RUN TO YARNELL THAN BACK—SO QUICK READ AND REPLY FOR NOW—

          A Mother’s Love Knows No Boundry says
          JULY 25, 2015 AT 4:34 PM

          To Rocksteady, Gary. Joy:HI AGAIN.

          I need to clarify I am not Marcia but a friend of hers.I FIGURED MAYBE ANNA OR EVEN GRANT REPRESENTING—MARCIA’S DEEP AGONY SEEN IN MEDIA PHOTOS CAPTURED MY SOUL THAT GRANT QUINN’S GETTING THIS GIRL JOY TO KEEP LOOKING “ALWAYS”…HE DESERVES IT…HE WAS ROBBED THAT DAY…HE DID NOT EVEN WANT TO BE THERE…NOT JUST THAT DAY BUT THAT SEASON… Anything directed to her I tell herYOU LET HER KNOW I HAVE INGRAINED ON MY HEART HER PHYSICAL EXPRESSION OF PAIN FROMT HAT MEDIA PHOTO OF HER LEARNING OF THE LOSS OF HER CHILD AND FOR THAT I WON’T EVER EVER GIVE UP… & will post her response. SOUNDS GOOD I update her with new information or a particularly good rant (wink wink Gary)RIGHTTTTTT…..HEE HEE.

          She most definitely knows why you’ve spent 2 years recreating the events of the fire, sometimes second by second.OR EVEN THE MOMENT BETWEEN THOSE SECONDS NOT SHOWN YET At times, its just not a good day to hear or read anything about the fire.EXACTLY- I WAS ON THE WEAVERS—WATCHED IT ALL SO I UNDERSTAND— SHOULD OF NEVER HAPPENED…. If she were to read all of this everyday I don’t think her heart would ever start to heal.PLUS ITS ALOT TO TAKE IN For me being here at this site has been healing.SAME HERE Had life just carried on after the investigations without any answers it would have driven me crazy.ME TOO

          Knowing the truth may be painful but you can heal having that knowledge. EXACTLYWhen you have unanswered questions your mind keeps returning to them, not allowing your heart to heal. RIGHT ONThe reason for her lawsuit is exactly what she says for changes and the truth. It wasn’t to point a finger and place blame. SAME HERE Can you imagine always wondering ‘what’s behind the gag order?’ Actions like that causes animosity.MY THOUGHTS TOO—IF I COULD ONLY SPEAK ALOUD WHAT I KNOW…I HAVE BEEN GUIDED WAY TOO MANY FOLKS THAT IT REQUIRES THEM TO SPEAK UP NOT ME

          If it wasn’t for everybody who has shared info here I don’t think she’d ever know. THANK YOU Never have I seen her show anger or heard one negative comment about Eric or JesseME EITHER (or any individual for that fact). As with the other families they lost a loved one and she just wanted to know the truth.SAME HERE

          You never know what will bring the tears (like Gary’s post above). So many times I’ve read and felt everybody’s sorrow here and share those with Marcia and she knows you mourn with her.WE DO.

          Joy, we get you. DID YOU “HEAR” THAT GARY OLSON…WOW…FINALLY SOMEONE WHO DOES…SOFT GIGGLES GARY. Who knows causes us to bond to certain people/situations so strongly. I’ve experienced it myself before. Maybe you knew one, a few, or all 19 souls during another time. Your efforts are appreciated and I hope one day it will be revealed to you why you so strongly seek the truth.I THINK IT IS HISTORY. MY HISTORY. WILDFIRE HISTORY. WHO GOD LED TO ME AFTER THE FIRE. I MEAN WALK WITH JIM ROTH AND HIS WIFE OR CERTAIN ONES WHO KNEW THESE MEN AS I HAVE…I SEEN ALOT OVER TIME AND I THINK AS MY LIFE CLOSES AND I SEE AND REFLECT…I GUESS A PART OF ME THINKS I AM GONNA BEAT IT AND I AM NOT GONNA HAVE A LIFE CLOSE AND I THINK WELL IF IT DOES I DID MY PART SO THOSE CHILDREN GROW UP KNOWING THAT…I STRONGLY BELIEVE ANYONE A PART TO THE YARNELL FIRE SHOULD SPEAK ON IT FOR THE CHILDREN…

          Sorry for the lengthy post.YOU ARE TALKING TO THE RAMBLER— I wish I could make each one of you feel the appreciation we have for your time and talents. It’s been amazing to watch a group of people with hugely diverse backgrounds and personalities come together, bringing their talents, knowledge, & info, treating each other with respect for the purpose of finding the truth. Very cool..HA HA HA…I KNOW SOMEONE WHO WOULD DIFFER ON THAT…YET I DO THINK OVER ALL WE HAVE TRIED TO BE RESPECTFUL YET IT HAS BEEN REAL RAW AND UNEDITED SO YOU GET TO SEE LIFE WITHIN THIS BLOG…PEOPLE BEING REAL..THAT IS THE COOL PART

          Reply

          • Joy, Can you please tell Sonny our prayers are with him on his upcoming surgery, Joy – Marcia would like you know that she appreciates putting yourself out there by speaking the truth & is sorry for the pain it has caused you. Like you, she has a lot she wishes she could share but can’t at this time (nothing earth-shattering)..

            Reply

            • Thanks for the encouragement — This is nearly August and the month that always reminds me of my son’s passing–something that I never forget — a hollow spot in my heart by missing him. Unless one has lost a child it is hard to understand the sadness we share at his or her loss. My hikes with Joy have always brought that sadness at the losses of those 19 young men and I know and share their loved ones grief.
              The Yarnell fire obviously manifested the flaws of this fire fighting cadre in following and realizing the importance of safety guidelines, Fines may have helped correct this to some degree but one state agency fining another and it is just transferring the peoples tax money from one place to another. I believe that this one should require an FBI investigation so the real story of why these men died be known.

              Then,perhaps there can be some closure and solace should the lessons of safety and stern recognition of the value of a fireman’s life be made utmost in the minds of those in command.

              On the initial attack there was a late call where emergency attack was in order. Do we let these fires go so that big money can be made putting them out. Seems big money is a factor, and according to our local gunsmith, who has been watching how these lightening strikes are allowed ample time to develop into full fledged fires, one wonders if his statement to look at the money to be made is not a common habit. Why put it out right away if millions of government money is available to the happiness of many, but then too often a killer fire developes with the destruction of homes and natural habitat and resources that need not be.

              Give me all your excuses as to why this fire was not addressed immediately. But I am certain you will never find one good reason considering the extreme fire danger we had that hot, dry day on June 28, 20013.

              Reply

  230. **
    ** WARNING! – POSSIBLE INTERNET SCAM IN PROGRESS REGARDING
    ** A YARNELL ‘TELL ALL’ BOOK SUPPOSEDLY WRITTEN BY BRENDAN MCDONOUGH

    If you do a Google search for the name “Brendan McDonough” ( in quotes), and then set the search criteria to just any hits within the past week… the following link appears as the SECOND search hit…

    ————————————————————————————–
    (PDF) Granite ( a Tragedy ) pdf download online free – New downloads
    http://www.godbooks.org/1hnaed_ebooks-granite-a-tragedy-.pdf
    Brendan McDonough: Granite Mountain Hotshots survivor… Brandon
    McDonough, 21, has broken his silence to recount the moments leading
    up to the tragedy.
    ————————————————————————————–

    Notice that the morons didn’t even get Brendan’s name right.

    They spelled it ‘Brandon’.

    If you CLICK this link… you will just get a page that will be telling you that you can download this new “Tell all” book for FREE… but you have to set up a FREE account with ‘godbooks’ first.

    Notice that is GODbooks… and not GOODbooks.

    First ‘form’ to fill out wants a valid name and a valid email address.

    Run away.

    If you are foolish enough to actually fill out that screen… the NEXT ‘sign-up’ form is then going to tell you in order to get your FREE account to download McDonough’s new “Tell all” book… you have to give them a credit card number.

    Run away as fast as you can.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      Just for gags… I created a ‘fake’ email box and gave it to the first “sign up for your free download account” form at the GODbooks link above that is advertising this FREE “Tell All” book supposedly containing the information that Brendan McDonough has always known but still refuses to reveal.

      I stopped the registration process at the NEXT screen which says it then wants a valid credit card number in order for me to download this FREE “Tell All” book.

      If you do that yourself… what happens next is you will get an email from them that says the following…

      —————————————————————————–
      You had request to download the pdf ebook of Granite (a Tragedy) by Dane, Clemence, you can download it now with the link below:

      http://www.godbooks.org/dl.php?id=5866078

      What You Need To Do:

      Join our resource site and Fill out the simple form on the next page to download Granite (a Tragedy) full pdf version.

      Best Regards

      2015 http://www.godbooks.org. All rights reserved.

      You are receiving this email, because you are request to download the free pdf ebooks. Please contact us in case you want to be removed from this email.
      ——————————————————————————–

      Notice the ‘broken’ ( and incorrect ) spelling and grammar in the message itself, and also notice that an AUTHOR is not being listed for this Yarnell “Tell All” book.

      “Dane Clemence” is the pseudonym used by English playwright and novelist Winifred Ashton, best remembered for her many stage plays and for Broome Stages(1931), a tale of the theatre.

      She was born in 1888 and DIED in 1965.

      If you actually click the link in the email they send you… you will be taken to an ‘official’ looking page that still wants you to ‘complete your registration’ for your free download account.

      They are not ‘tracking’ you with an ID number that’s in the URL itself.

      In the case above… it’s id=5866078

      The page that appears is now BRANDED by a company that calls itself “LilPlay”… ( and not GODbooks ) and the page says this…

      ————————————————————————-
      LilPlay

      Already a member? Login Here

      Books, Comics, Magazines & More Anytime, Anywhere.

      Access Required

      You need to create an account to gain permission to access unlimited downloads & streaming.

      Take advantage of our special promotional offer to gain unlimited access for 5 days for free.
      ————————————————————————-

      Again… RUN AWAY as FAST as you can.

      This is a ‘phishing’ SCAM.

      Reply

      • Typo up above. I typed NOT instead of NOW.

        Paragraph(s) above should have read like this…

        —————————————————————–
        Notice the ‘broken’ ( and incorrect ) spelling and grammar in the message itself, and also notice that an AUTHOR is NOW being listed for this Yarnell “Tell All” book.

        “Dane Clemence” is the pseudonym used by English playwright and novelist Winifred Ashton, best remembered for her many stage plays and for Broome Stages(1931), a tale of the theatre.

        She was born in 1888 and DIED in 1965.
        ———————————————————————-

        Reply

    • Thanks Bob, sounds like you understand. Good advice but hard advice, but we always got paid to do the hard things…right Bob?

      Reply

      • I can’t lie to you Bob, that is just tough talk, I will never be able to put her down. But don’t worry, after 35 years of seeing all of the heartache families go through refusing to do the right thing for their loved ones in ICU, my wife will take care of it while I stay home and cry like a baby. In fact, my wife would put me down without batting an eye, probably even if the doctors want to release me and send me home the next day.

        I know I sound like a Drama Queen, it’s just that she is my first dog because I was always gone, I barely had time for kids. And I wouldn’t have this one but our oldest daughter left her at our house to be adopted out to a new family and she adopted ME. So that’s how I even ended up with a dog, but I can promise you there won’t be another one. My wife will always has had a dog , and will continue to have dogs, but not me. I don’t need to take on any more extra heartache through free choice.

        Reply

        • As you can tell I have done a lot of crying like a baby.
          They have all left me with great memories And a special place in my hart.

          Reply

          • Yes I can. And you and my wife have similar preferences in dogs. She always had Golden Retrievers (3) for the kids and now she has a beautiful Chocolate Lab who fetches things from the ocean, lakes and streams really well. It is a fun thing to watch.

            I now understand where the saying, “If you want a friend, get a dog” came from.

            And just a follow up to my armchair advice to any wildland firefighter supervisors who may still be following this thread. Even if you really screw up really bad, really really bad, really really really bad, or even criminally stupid bad, you don’t have to really worry, a jury would never convict you of manslaughter unless you signed an affidavit before you did it saying that is what you were going to do. They would go for a “jury nullification” no matter what the investigator or prosecutor wanted.

            America loves their firefighters. Even Daniels from the Thritymile Fire just got like 4 hours of home detention and that was for lying to investigators, not for being criminally stupid.

            So…here is one last piece of free advice, when you are asked about what you did and why you did it, either don’t talk at all (plead the 5th)…or tell the truth, but whatever you do, don’t lie about it.

            Almost everyone will give you a pass with nothing more than rolling their eyes at how fucking stupid you were.

            BUT…do you really want to go there? Just follow most of the rules, most of the time and you will be fine.

            You should even do what Bob say’s and follow all of the rules all of the time, but I couldn’t and as you know, it is very hard to FIGHT FIRE AGRESSIVELY…but provide for safety first while doing so.

            So…good luck out there, and let’s be careful! (Hill Street Blues). May God Bless you and America! (I can bring God into it, I am not the government)

            Reply

  232. PLEASE…keep the previous Yarnell resident who lost his home in the Yarnell Fire (next to Assemble of God church) deaf man Fred Brown in your prayers. I have pastor Ralph trying to reach him. When they relocated him after the fire they had him at the Wickenburg rv park in question tonight that flooded away…

    http://www.abc15.com/news/region-central-southern-az/wickenburg/flooding-in-wickenburg-saturday-storms-drop-inches-of-rain-on-wickenburg

    by the way in this video…sounds like a Howard Stern prank with Jon Smith,,,I mean, really…I know alot in that community too…what a joke…Jon came home to his wife cheating…????…has to be a prank…

    Reply

  233. I said, “My wife told me today that my best friend (who just happens to be a Yorky mix) in the whole world has cancer and so I really don’t give a fuck about your problems or your feelings right now. Deal with it. We all have our problems.”

    It has been pointed out to me in an email that this post can be interpreted as meaning that I do not care about ANYBODY’S problems or feelings right now. And once again, this is a misinterpretation of my meaning due to the limitations of communicating in a world of 140 characters or less as WTKTT has pointed out. Although I do realize I can actually use more than 140 characters in this format but even it has it limits on how many are allowed.

    Plus, apparently there was a problem with you knowing what I meant without me clearly stating it. What is wrong with YOU PEOPLE? Can’t you read my mind by now?

    OK…I am going to “walk that back” as the political pundits say.

    I really don’t give a fuck about your problems or your feelings right now.

    The “your” in the above sentence is intended to apply;

    to all of those people who do not like this thread such as those who are critical on an opposing blog and I can’t remember the name of it right now but it is the one Bob was tracking;

    to those friends, families and others who loved the GMIHC hotshots who want to stick with the original narrative and don’t want to hear the truth and those who can’t handle the truth (A Few God Men).

    to all of those wildland firefighters who got so upset and vowed to stop fighting wildfire just like the police in Baltimore stopped doing their jobs just because everyone finally said, “Hey stop murdering men you arrest and who are in your custody just because you can.” So here is my message to all wildland firefighting supervisors, “Hey stop putting your crews at risk by violating all of the rules all of the time just because you can because you want to advance your own career in a macho world or you think the rules are hillbilly, or you “think” you can make it because if you do, and you kill your people and you survive, I hope there is an investigator like me who will come gunin” for you backed up by a prosecutor who will send you to prison. People don’t get away with getting drunk and killing kids in a crosswalk and neither should you for doing something that is even more stupid like hiking a crew of young men down into that canyon of death. Because gee…everyone is taught from day one to stay out of canyons of death. Duhhhhh!

    to all those ex and current wildland firefighters on Bill What’s His Name web site blog who think the ex hotshot crew bosses on this thread don’t know what we are talking about…FUCK YOU. I will put my hotshot credentials up against anybody who has ever laced up a pair of White’s.

    to all of those who investigated the Yarnell Hill Fire except for my personal heroes, the valiant and fearless investigators from ADOSH. By the way, how are things going for you checking the migrant farm worker port a potties for hazardous waste in Eloy going for you. Everything good?

    to all of those “everybody else’s” who dont agree with me except those like Eric Tarr and the Blue Ridge Hotshots who responded first responded to the deployment site, you can say anything and do anything you like for the rest of your lives, you will always have my deepest gratitude and respect for what you did, I would have collapsed in despair and grief and everybody else who ever worked on a fire line with me, you can disagree with me and we can work it out, all we have to do is close down the Green Onion in Santa Fe and by the time that happens all our problems will be forgotten and a bunch of other people, you should know who you are, you have a lifetime pass from me as well.

    So…to all of those who read and support this blog, even if you do disagree with me or don’t even like me, I love you and care about your problems and your feelings.

    Reply

    • Whoops, miscommunicated again, I should have said “What is wrong with SOME YOU PEOPLE? Can’t you read my mind by now?” so as not to lump everyone who read my comment into the same group, because some of you people probably have learned how to read my mind by now…because it’s not very complicated.

      Reply

      • because some of you people probably have learned how to read my mind by now…because it’s not very complicated.

        reply:
        YEAH RIGHT!
        I have not read your mind…if I did I am sure I’d get punched in the face alot…(soft smiles)
        can you say the letter M without touching your lips? I can. Can you read my mind HOW?

        Reply

        • No, I can’t say M without touching my lips, and no…I can’t read your mind, I think your mind is too complicated for anyone to read.

          Reply

          • reply in CAPS below:
            Gary Olson says

            July 18, 2015 at 5:29 pm

            No, I can’t say M without touching my lips,SURE YOU CAN…IF I CAN…ANYONE CAN…PLACE YOUR TONGUE OUT SIDE THE LIPS THAN SAY “M”…SEE YOUR TOP LIP DID NOT TOUCH THE BOTTOM…HEE HEE and no…I can’t read your mind, I think your mind is too complicated for anyone to read.JUST SMILE AND NOD, JOY. HEE HEE
            SURPRISE, SURPRISE. I HAVE SOME KIND OF COMPUTATIONAL MATERIAL IN THAT SKULL…SOME KIND OF ALIEN TO THE WORLD…SURROUNDED BY BIOLOGICAL TISSUE…MY BRAIN HAS BEEN ALTERED BY TUMORS, SEIZURES, DISEASE, TRAUMA…YET A MYSTERY WHY I STILL CAN SAY “I AM”…”WHAT I AM”…

            Reply

      • Gary I have lost 4 great Dogs to Cancer before their time It deeply hurts but I would not trade the time I had them for any thing. That’s– 14 total including 6 Labs one still alive, along with two house dogs. I hear your Pain and I did not mistake what you said.
        Don’t let the Cancer go to far I did with one and put off the inevitable when I should not have,—— It is hard to let go.

        Reply

    • I said, “My wife told me today that my best friend (who just happens to be a Yorky mix) in the whole world has cancer and so I really don’t give a fuck about your problems or your feelings right now. Deal with it. We all have our problems.”

      I had to face that a few years back with my pet…but my loss was that Chinese chemical in food thing. that killed my pet..I had the BEST pet too…we did it all together…I still never got over that yet…never will…

      Reply

        • me too. when they broke the news how my long time almost 17 years old cat died who hiked like a dog on my trails with me died by some chemical…sucked…

          Reply

    • I said, “My wife told me today that my best friend (who just happens to be a Yorky mix) in the whole world has cancer and so I really don’t give a fuck about your problems or your feelings right now. Deal with it. We all have our problems.”

      sorry you are facing that—

      Reply

    • you say:
      People don’t get away with getting drunk and killing kids in a crosswalk

      reply: actually you are wrong there. My father had so many duis in the day that one time the very system he worked for as an officer…they did the court part and put my dad in jail but he was out asap—IN HOUSE mentality and how it goes and how it works so not always true Gary…some people get drunk and take a life and walk free after the court theatrics…its all a public game…

      Reply

      • then there is the day I sat in a chair of a Van Buren hotel awaiting my father to receive an award; all dressed to the nine in those officers wear and shiney ass shoes…while he never fulfilled his part of a court just public theatrics and the same day another man—a South Phoenix cop who almost took a life away also was awarded for saving a life…two people…two humans who smiled with this cheesiest smiles with their big bosses shaking hands…getting awards…getting payroll increase….getting vacation increase…getting to know the higher ups…YUK!

        I have seen the IN HOUSE mentality up close—I mean my neighbor in Chandler was one of the most hated Nazi women you ever met but the untold story of her you would not have hated her…it’s what THEY want us to think and believe in this PROGRAMMABLE systematic world…you are right Gary UNTIL Blue Ridge with purity and Eric Tarr speak up on what they think of this page…they were there as I was…on that horrific afternoon…I still think CYFD also should be in that loop as well…after hearing from locals…

        Reply

      • Well, my comment was just meant to be a generalization. I guess I should have said, “I don’t think people should be able to violate all of the rules all of the time and get away with it.”

        For people who violate some of the rules, some of the time, well, I guess that is what juries are for in addition to police, prosecutor, judicial discretion plus common sense usually protect most people from that fat.

        And I think there is ample evidence that neither Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed demonstrated sound judgment based on best practices when deciding to move their crew down into a brush filled canyon directly in front of a raging inferno burning below and towards their path. And based on what I know now, I would have recommended in the strongest possible terms to the U.S. Attorney’s Office that they be prosecuted for manslaughter. And I think this position is going to really upset a lot of people and I am past caring what those people think whether my best friend has cancer or not, which I stated some time back on this thread.

        I would like to give them a pass, but it wouldn’t be the right thing to do.

        Reply

        • That was well said Gary. If you were standing on that very spot they went down watching a raging wild fire not a mile away, that had a very high chance of turning back on you and considering that you were also watching an approaching storm on the other side of the fire–you would do what any cow puncher would do, he would reverse direction away from the fire and get the hell out of the area. That is exactly what I saw and moved out more than an hour ahead of those men. They were safe at that time, we were not–yet Joy who did not understand the ways of wild fires and how winds can change during the monsoon seasons nearly was to make the same deadly call. Dropping down toward that Ranch looked easier than taking the long safe route out. And in that 106 degree day and more steep upward climbing in front of us I would have made the same decision except there was a wild fire throwing flames out what looked to be up to a 100 ft from our vantage point. I had her time it taking over a slope and mountain side in less than 14 minutes and I judged that to be a half mile and winds were not that strong going to the NE. That was enough to say if the winds changed and .as they can do in this Arizona High Dessert, there would be no escape if you found yourself in that bowl.

          Why can’t the people doing the memorial be honest…

          hat Yarnell fire management was screwed up from day one and is probably one of the worse f s in fire fighting history if not the worst. Steed and Marsh can only be known for what they did–led their 18 young crew into a situation that was certain to kill them if the winds changed and they certainly had knowledge that 45 mph gusts were headed their way. Why not be honest here, but we have no proof but it seems likely that there had to be orders from higher ups who would have properly demanded they stay in the black and safe. Rick McKinsey whose family has been in the area for 150 years and himself a cowboy and outdoorsman told that crew early Sunday morning –“Don’t you boys get hung up down in that manzaniita brush”. He knew the danger of trying to out run a fire in a maze of brush.

          Why not do what is right. No statues, but trails to train the future young inexperienced fire fighter how to stay alive and possible situations where your boss might get you killed. Fire men are not military and need not be sacrificed in situations such as we had in Yarnell. Let them get caught up in that brush to see what it is like and how impossible it would be to outrun a raging wild fire should it reverse direction as weather men had told the Yarnell management it would.

          Reply

    • to all those ex and current wildland firefighters on Bill What’s His Name web site blog

      reply:
      Bill Gabbert

      Reply

      • Ya, I know his name, I just didn’t want to recognize him by using it, I have never tried to post on his blog because I have read too much about him censoring and deleting comments he doesn’t like or agree with.

        I think these types of blogs should be wide open, especially for people who are willing to post their real names and accept the negative consequences for exercising their 1st Amendment Rights (and yes, I know that only means the government can’t censor free speech.)

        Reply

    • Eric Tarr and the Blue Ridge Hotshots who responded first responded to the deployment site, you can say anything and do anything you like for the rest of your lives, you will always have my deepest gratitude and respect for what you did,

      reply:
      amen. right on.

      Reply

    • , I love you and care about your problems and your feelings.

      reply:
      I think you do…and if you don’t have the love here…there is always friends on facebook—hardie har har
      you have me uplifted but now I have to do bills…and get set for medical massage tomorrow…thanks to Sonny….thank you sir-

      Reply

      • before I go…I always wondered HOW you put up with me Gary…then I think oh yeah I put up with you…we are even…have a great night and one day you and Sonny can SHOUT to me
        HEY KID—WE TOLD YOU SO!!!

        Reply

    • Bob we heard that same story from other people, for instance The Prescott reporter and one of the wives. Seems like quite a few people want to avoid learning the truth in this matter. They rather see their immediate friends receive awards and honors not deserved—They believe in keeping their noses up and eyes to the sky. Maybe they have been blinded by the sun.

      Reply

  234. Well…I guess it is time for me to weigh in with some more of my negativity (to some) my clarity (to some) and my bullshit (to many) regarding the lawsuits brought by the families. And if you go back and look at my previous comments you will see that I have always been consistent with this philosophy, I just don’t think most people have believed what I have said because they want to believe or at least hope for a different outcome.

    1. It is very hard, very hard…almost impossible to win when fighting the government unless a branch of the government wants you to win to punish another branch of the government for criminally stupid behavior, not just stupid, really stupid, really really stupid or even really really really stupid behavior. It almost always has to rise to the level of depriving someone of their constitutional rights stupid. And unless you interpret what happened to the GMIHC as depriving them of their constitutional right to “LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness”, that didn’t happen in this case. Therefore, the case is not winnable and it has never been winnable. Period. End of story.

    2. I know you do not like it, but what the Arizona Division of State Forestry did is what they always do, they fought the Yarnell Hill Fire under the same Standard Operating Procedures they have always fought wildfire on state lands in the Great State of Arizona. Avoid catastrophic losses to valuable natural resources while spending as little taxpayer money as possible. It is not their mission and it has never been their mission to suppress every fire, every time because it may eventually threaten someone else’s valuable property. The state land that was threatened by the Yarnell Hill Fire in the Weaver Mountains is not, and has never been, nor will ever be…a valuable natural resource. In fact…here is the really bad news. The Yarnell Hill Fire actually made the Arizona State Trust Lands in the Weaver Mountains marginally MORE valuable because it burned off a lot of the invasive, nasty, thick, overgrown brush that chokes out the grass by consuming all of the available water and blocking out the sunlight. So…the cattlemen who lease that land and the resource manager and manages that land and who is required by state law to make as much money for the schools in Arizona from that land would have actually have set the fire themselves and let it burn just like it did to rehabilitate that land if they could have without risking damaging people’s homes and other private property and inundating them with smoke and burned particles in the air to bother them with respiratory discomfort. Rex Maughan, his buddies, and the Arizona State Division of Forestry Range Conservationist who manages that area are really happy the Yarnell Hll Fire happened the way it did and the results…minus the collateral damage of course. After all, they do have human compassion…right? But I can assure you, they really like all of the grass that has regenerated because it now has water, sunlight and nutrients from the burned brush. In fact, before that area was overgrazed by generations of men like Rex Maughan who were trying to make as much money as they possibly could by grazing as many cows as they could on it, that land probably had range grass up to the waist of a tall cowboy, (Disclaimer…I come from a long line of such ranchers).

    3. NEWS FLASH for all Arizona Tax Payers and concerned Citizens…the Arizona State Division of Forestry is still fighting fire TODAY the same way they were fighting wildfire on June 30, 2013. NOTHING has changed, and nothing will change until when and if you want it to by pressuring your Arizona state representatives to increase your taxes and thereby be able to increase the funding to ALL of the state agencies who provide services to YOU. I guess either you don’t know this, or you don’t want to know it, but the Arizona State Division of Forestry operates just like all of the other state agencies do, right on the fucking margin That goes for the Department of Public Safety (state police) the people who are supposed to be tracking what the mining companies are doing but don’t because your representatives who get donations from those mining companies don’t want them to and YOU have your head up your ass and YOU are happy living in the state of Arizona where your state taxes are low and you usually don’t notice your services are also low unless you have to stand in line at the Department of Motor Vehicles and that has gotten a lot better ever since they computerized themselves with Service Arizona…so you don’t even notice that anymore. Whose side do you think Prescott area RANCHER and former or current, (I have lost track and really don’t give a fuck anymore) state senator or representative or simply political powerbroker Show Me Your Papers Steve Pierce is on? Yours or Rex Maughan and his buddies side? DUHHHHH!

    4. It is ALWAYS about the MONEY. And the more often and louder people say it is NOT about the MONEY means it is ever MORE about the MONEY! Wake up and smell the coffee! There is always a fine line between winning a lawsuit (by getting some money) and losing a lawsuit (by not getting any money) that requires a highly choreographed mating dance between the attorneys representing the plaintiffs and the attorneys representing the defendants. The attorneys who are more adept or just better financed by clients with very deep pockets, (And who had deeper pockets than the government? The state of Arizona will shut down the fucking schools to win this lawsuit if they have to) win the mating dance and then they get to be on top…or at least on the bottom with the other attorneys on top and still doing all of the work! That’s the way it works and that is the way it has always worked and that is the way it will always work. It is never about truth, justice and the American way except in those cases that are so fucking rare they make movies about them….think Erin Brockovich. The attorneys (Mr. SHITSACK Let Me Straighten Your Ass Out Howard What’s His Name) representing the families are in charge…not the families. Mr. SHITSACK Let Me Straighten Your Ass Out Howard What’s His Name called all of the families into the big fancy conference room in his office and he told them the bad news. Mr. SHITSACK Let Me Straighten Your Ass Out Howard What’s His Name said something like this or maybe even exactly this, “I have taken your bullshit case as far as I can, and played the game as well as I can and I have done the mating dance with opposing counsel as well as I can but now it is time for me to get publicly FUCKED on your behalf. I don’t really mind, and in fact after all of these years I kind of like it because I am going to get a lot of money for it after I take my cut out of your settlement dollars. BUT…since you are never going to get more than the state is currently offering and in fact if you keep pursuing this lawsuit you are going to get anything because like I either told you (or I should have told you) at the beginning, you don’t have a case anyway because what the state did was just really stupid, or maybe really really stupid, and it could have been even really really really stupid, but whatever it was (they couldn’t wrap their heads around how hot and fast that fucking wildfire was burning, it exponentially outperformed their expectations as a result of their linear thinking, but that is not a crime or a violation of anyone’s constitutional rights, so we can’t win…period. End of story. So…they only reason you are going to get ANY money for me to get a cut of, you have to accept the NUISANCE settlement the state has offered you to get this fucking case out of the fucking media and if you don’t, you aren’t going to get SHIT because you are really going to piss them off…SO TAKE THE FUCKING MONEY GODAMNIT! And if you keep fucking around with your grandiose pursuit of the truth as advertised…you are going to have to start paying me cash up front because I am done representing you on a contingency fee because we HAVE MILED THAT FUCKING COW DRY! OK! Do you understand? And for openers…I need a $500,000.00 retainer to show me you are serious because your fucking case is going to cost MILLIONS! OK…GOT IT! Are we on the same page now? Oh…and one more thing, I am very sorry for your loss but that is not what this is about, this is about the FUCKING MONEY! What part of that don’t you understand?

    5. Any questions? Because I am on a fucking roll today. I think I will go catch up on my meds now.

    Reply

    • BUT…I do have some GOOD NEWS for you. I called GEICO and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance! Sorry…that was my old work joke, which could be really funny if it was delivered at the right time when things were really going to hell in a hand basket.

      Now here is the really good news. YOU paid a lot of money over the decades to train me and pay me to learn how the system works on the job. Now you should be happy that I was not asleep or not paying attention for all of those years I had a seat at the table where these kinds of decisions were made on your behalf, whether you like the outcome or not.

      And now…I am even giving you a return on your investment free gratis or pro bono. Call it whatever you like…I am not charging you anything except for the opportunity to occasionally shamelessly promote my book (Betrayed By Our Fire Gods) or my websites, http://www.ourfiregods.com and http://www.atomicskiesnet So don’t worry…be happy!

      Reply

      • Gary- you are lucky, saving money with Geico—

        Geico was Sonny’s for years until he got money and bought him a 73′ Truck and they don’t go back that far to cover a vehicle like that so he had to change to Progressive/Safe Auto for his dozen vehicles and bike.

        This girl has been devoted and loyal to the Thorpe Family all my insurance years. I never look around. I trust them 100%. ALLSTATE (480) 732-9696 3107 S Gilbert Rd 109 Gilbert, Arizona 85295…their receptionist “Cookie” is the best…Ryan does an excellent job if Jason is not there…I watched Jason from a kid point to an adult married with kids now…he has one of the neatest love stories of how he met his wife…if Geico can save me money…wouldn’t change…when you got the BEST…there is certain things I have mining claims on and ALLSTATE is one…hey, recently I got to run into co-workers/chefs who I worked with for almost a decade and it was great to see over 30 years later they still are doing the same thing…day in and out…they look almost the same…I don’t. They only knew it was me by the soft giggles and hee hees and they say “the eyes”. Well, I really thank you for taking the time out Gary and Bob because I was one of those “hopeless romantics” thinking “change” could happen and yet I still do…I remember a family telling me long ago about the abuse their son faced within the church and they accepted it as it was because they had enough on their plate just living life but ONE SPECIAL WOMAN took the “hot seat” and made the change not just for that little boy but for future generations…so I am a old fashion in that sense that I think we all could be that ONE SPECIAL WOMAN (not referring to you Bruce Jenner) if we just keep talking and discussing because one day the information will be led to the public for the world to see…we were stuck in this LONG line on Iron Springs Rd. yesterday and when we reached WHY-(((http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1086&ArticleID=147774&TM=63038.68)))– someone fell asleep at the wheel a runner reported to us…that is what was fed to us and it would be a 3 hour wait but it was 8:46am-11:18am—as we finally passed by THE FEEL I got when I pass the Central Yavapai Fire Dept. truck and their men…I only have eye witness accounts and not yet the documented proof but I do have certainty these employees should of been interviewed for the 6-30-13 YHF and if you ALL can enlighten me as to what the SAIR and OSHA stated their involvement was so I can compare to homeowners accounts…it would be nice. Plus anyone know anything new on Paul Morin. I do. Yet have to keep it on the low for now. OH MY GOD> Baja CA hurricane must of hit Aguila Arizona last night, The almost 90 year old we check in on and our animals…what a freaking HIT…Warren’s trailer just FLIPPED over in that storm and well, our barn shelter, portable garage and dog kennels and chicken coops looks like a corner of scrap now…sucks too because we do not feel too hot right now…The animals knew Sonny welded that fifth wheel down temporary and it held well and they just hung out there yet the awning that was nicely put away is no longer an accessory to the fifth wheel. Lost eight total trees …nice willoughby and dogwood and some androscoggins…bummer. My ambulance bill arrived. They don’t take long. $2116.25. Base rate $1531.59. Mileage to hospital 24 equals $550.08. To start IV, EKG, etc/vitals/etc to equal the rest of breakdown…long list…HATE to see ER bill…that don’t make sense. I have blue cross..??? The Investigative Media Mascot “HOPE (first name) HONOR (middle name) JUSTICE (last name) who I nicknamed because I love Hugh O’Brian’s old tv show Wyatt Earp and the old west names so I nicknamed the puppy MAE WEST. My great grandma who was Sioux Indian was renamed Mae from her Indian name and I love the freaking West over the East anyday…Most my entire family live either in Brooklyn/Manhattan/Staten Island, NY, Maryland, Deleware, Conneticut, Vermont area and I don’t mind visiting there but I am to the core the desert walker and explore the caves…Anyways our mascot just had a WISDOM PANEL dna test so we will know what kind of dog it is soon. I can say this- she loves doing tricks so she has to have jack russel in her…I can show biz our mascot dog indeed—the next Shirley Temple—I have the Earp Boys kitties but Wyatt and Morgan are not here…Virgil still is and Mae West hopped on her back and it was soooo freaking funny and it was only 8 seconds but it was a long 8 seconds of Mae West back legs in air as Virgil took off. Looked like she was riding a horse…
        Well, after knowing my dad and Sonny…my father would tell me “now, sweetheart do not let your mother or the women in my life tell you beer is bad. Did you know beer can make you smarter? It made Bud wiser. “He would say the quirkiest things. As I grew older I thought my father was a couple cans short of a six pack. Well the most “philosophical” of the cocktails is…
        I heard Marti’s and I know Sonny’s and mine is been on here Agnostic Bitters and tonic. I just wonder has our campfire discussions been more under the influence…
        or lack of meds…I recently was told this site is viewed as ugly gossip. I wondered about that. I just discuss and share my humble opinions or photos or videos or maps and etc…so my view is this site can help promote cooperation from the ones who once were not cooperating and self-improvement….it seems some would like us all to wear 16th century scold bridle—right Otis 🙂 is that what the Brits did to people…a ghastly punishment for those who spoke too much. hee hee
        Now, on a serious note.
        Gary, I have the FAITH that “change” will come from this YHF. I loved and read every word over and over that you wrote…it made me think of this piece of movie history— h t tps ://www.youtube.c o m/ watch?v=9FnO3igOkOk
        Classic piece of movie history.

        Reply

        • I don’t really have GEICO insurance, nor did I call them…it’s just an old joke…oh never mind, it is a stupid joke anyway and it must lose something in writing.

          Reply

          • You see it goes like this. GEICO used to run an old commercial all of the time and their actor would say, “I have some good news, I called GEICO and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance.”

            So…when you are in a really bad situation and things are about to get worse and you are with other people (who have seen the old commercial) you say to them, “I have some really good news…pause….(and then everybody who is in a really bad situation with you, get all excited and hopeful you really do have good news for them)…and then you say…”I called GEICO and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance!” And then the peopled around you get crestfallen faces…and then they start laughing and get cheered up no matter how bad things are because they “get” the joke. Oh never mind, any time you have to explain a joke, it doesn’t work.

            Reply

            • You see it goes like this. GEICO used to run an old commercial all of the time and their actor would say, “I have some good news, I called GEICO and I am going to save a ton of money on my car insurance.” YOU ARE FUNNY…YOU ARE EXPLAINING IT TO A GIRL WHO PRACTICALLY LIVES IN A CAVE WITH NO TV…HEE HEE…

              Reply

              • I can certainly why the joke did not work with you then. But in the right setting, and with the right delivery, it really can be funny. But the situation has to be really bad first, and then it can be a hoot.

                Reply

        • And I am glad you have faith change will come…because I don’t. But…you have the correct attitude and mine is deeply flawed. I always expect the worst and that way I am never disappointed or at least I am never surprised by the outcome.

          Reply

          • Joy…I really do hate to be the one to tell you this. But…no one has even come close to admitting they, or anyone else did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And in spite of WTKTT’s persistent statements about how people will tell the truth under oath or in depositions and even though that may be true, none of that will ever happen.

            It will literally cost millions of dollars to bring this kind of case to trial. The state of Arizona has unlimited defense funds and therefore they have millions of dollars to spend defending it.

            Nobody has that kind of money to pursue it and no attorneys are going to take it on a contingency fee or pro bono (say like they would against a tobacco company or somebody like the Southern Poverty Law Center or the ACLU).

            Literally…the only chance this case ever had was the moral authority the 12 plus families had in the court of public opinion to discourage the state from spending millions of dollars of tax payer dollars to defend their wrongdoing. BUT…now even that is gone because some of the most dominant families have given a press conference with the Arizona State Division of Forestry and announced they are now one big happy team, all fighting for the same goals.

            Game over…the bad guys won. The game really is over, except for the books that hopefully will follow that will tell the truth and even those books, if they happen, won’t change anything.

            The system is too big and too powerful and too entrenched. The agencies representatives literally had the gall to stand in front of the world at a press conference and lie their asses off with straight faces while making the most outrageous statements with immunity.

            Reply

            • REPLY IN caps:

              It will literally cost millions of dollars to bring this kind of case to trial. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT— IF THE RIGHT FOLKS SPEAK UP. – END OF STORY. NO NEED FOR MILLIONS TO BE SPENT. The state of Arizona has unlimited defense funds and therefore they have millions of dollars to spend defending it. IT WON’T BE EASY TO DEFEND— I WOULD OF LEFT THIS INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA SITE AND THE YHF LONG AGO IF GOD HAD NOT GUIDED THESE CERTAIN FOLKS MY WAY…FOR THAT…I REMAIN UNTIL I SEE THAT CLARITY COME TO LIGHT…AND I DO NOT CARE IF I STAND ALONE WAITING FOR IT…BECAUSE I AM NEVER ALONE…THE PEOPLE KNOW THEY SPOKE…IF I KNEW YOUR NAME OR WHO YOU WERE MORE THAN LIKELY AT THIS POINT I WOULD OF BROKE THE SILENCE LIKE I DID WHEN ONE FIREFIGHTER TOLD ME SOMETHING AND THEIR NAME IS ON THIS WEBSITE BUT NOT BRINGING IT UP AGAIN DUE TO LITIGATIONS..YET I MAY NOT HAVE YOUR NAME BUT YOU ARE ON SURVEILLANCE VIDEO SO SOMEONE MAY KNOW WHO YOU ARE…

              Nobody has that kind of money to pursue it and no attorneys are going to take it on a contingency fee or pro bono (say like they would against a tobacco company or somebody like the Southern Poverty Law Center or the ACLU).IF THE RIGHT FOLKS DO THE RIGHT THING- END OF STORY. CHANGE WILL HAPPEN.

              Literally…the only chance this case ever had was the moral authority the 12 plus families had in the court of public opinion to discourage the state from spending millions of dollars of tax payer dollars to defend their wrongdoing. BUT…now even that is gone because some of the most dominant families have given a press conference with the Arizona State Division of Forestry and announced they are now one big happy team, all fighting for the same goals.THAT IS NOT WHAT I HEARD—THERE IS SOME STRUGGLES WITHIN THAT BIG HAPPY TEAM—

              Game over…the bad guys won.NOT ALWAYS—I WILL KEEP WITH MY FAITH— The game really is over,THE GAME…I DISAGREE…IF THE RIGHT FOLKS SPEAK—GAME ON! except for the books that hopefully will follow that will tell the truth and even those books, if they happen, won’t change anything.TRUTH DOES NOT MEAN CHANGE…BUT I CAN TELL YOU THIS I LEARNED FROM THE SAIR— CHANGE THE TRUTH. NARRATE- SOUNDS GOOD…

              The system is too big and too powerful and too entrenched. ARE WE SPEAKING ABOUT THE SYSTEM OR SELECT ONES IN CHARGE AND THE LIES…YES THE LIES ARE TOO BIG, TOO POWERFUL AND TOO ENTRENCHED. WHAT YOU FIND TO BE A WORD OF DESCRIPTION “POWERFUL” I KIND OF FEEL ITS DOWN CORRUPTIVE—19 MEN DIED AND MANY AFTER HERE LOCALLY—AND SO MANY BEFORE—IT HAS TO STOP—WE HAVE TO STOP THINKING HOW GREAT THOU ART IN GOVERNMENT— BECAUSE IN THE END WE WILL SEE HOW GREAT THOU ART-The agencies representatives literally had the gall to stand in front of the world at a press conference and lie their asses off with straight faces while making the most outrageous statements with immunity.WHAT DID YOU EXPECT FOR THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY FOURTH OF JULY WEEK FIREWORKS? I EXPECTED IT. LONG AGO, I WOULD BE ON SET MAY IT BE “ER” OR “DAYS OF OUR LIVES” OR “PASSIONS” AND I WOULD WATCH MY FRIEND DO WHAT SHE DOES AND THEN WE WOULD PLAY ROLE ON THE VERY AREA SHE JUST DID BUT WE WOULD LEAVE FUNNY THINGS ONLY US 2 KNEW WERE THERE AND NOONE KNEW I KNEW HER SO A FEW PEOPLE I WOULD SAY WHAT WOULD BE HIDDEN ON SET SO ANYWAYS I REMEMBER ONE TIME TELLING THIS LADY TO WATCH DAYS OF OUR LIVES CAMPING SCENE WITH THE TENT AND I HAD MY HIKING PAGE ZAZZLE BUTTON ON IT AND WELL I FORGOT ALL ABOUT THE THEATRICS THAT IT TAKES FIVE WEEKS BEFORE IT HITS TV WORLD…AND WELL, POINT BEING THIS WHOLE CONFERENCE JUST REMINDED ME OF THE FUNNY MOMENTS HUMANS DO IN TV WORLD GARY…THAT’S WHY I STAY IN CAVES…IT WAS ALL PRE-PLANNED JUST FOR THAT SECOND ANNIVERSARY AND I BELIEVE THAT MORE WHEN GOD GUIDED US TO GRANT SCOTT MCKEE JUNIOR THAT SUNDAY WHEN I SAID I WAS SHOCKED HE SIGNED AND HE HAD NOT SEEN CONFERENCE AND DID NOT SIGN..

              ALWAYS REMEMBER THIS GARY AS YOU ARE IN THE BACKGROUND OF CRIMINAL INVESTIGATIONS YET FLAWED FEELING THAT CHANGE CANNOT HAPPEN WITH POWER—
              CHANGE CAN HAPPEN.
              IF THE TRUE INVESTIGATORS WOULD LOOK WHERE NOONE LOOKS-
              THAT IS THE BEST I CAN SAY-
              THE ONES SPEAKING- DO NOT LOOK THERE.

              Reply

                • again…one day…Sonny and Gary will say:
                  TOLD YOU SO JOY….

                  yet maybe not if YOU (you know who you are) SPEAK UP!

                  Reply

                • Gary I think you are right on that one. The state or government has all the funds they need and a host of lawyers to contend with. Likely the nuisance settlement is the only sensible route–the truth after all is presently evident to all eyes. It was a screw up from the get go and as you say it is all about money as the bottom line. Not much is going to change that but perhaps they will be a bit more careful in how they select the leaders and follow safety rules.

                  When Eisenhower was in office I was still in high school. The Feds decided we needed these fast cross country highways and indeed we did. But since it was put in as a military necessity the government came through with a force. D-9s tore down my Dad’s business and home and we were dumped out onto the desert to live in a lean two. The offer was $2500 and Dad refused. He tried to fight it in court but could not come up with a $30,000 retainer so did his own legal work. It ended up he got nothing and I think the ordeal broke his health–he died soon after from cancer. That is the way it works– and if he had of been able to put up the 30 grand for an attorney that would have been lost as well.

                  It would indeed be nice to hear under oath the testimonies of so many involved in this fire. But it looks like at least in the Yarnell incident the cronies operate much like many of the police departments– you don’t see many police ready to rat on bad police actions eventhough it is occurs often enough. It is the outsider with videos that manages to expose most of these bad actions.

                  What I do not understand is how 19 young fire fighters can die without a thorough FBI investigation considering they were commissioned and had worked in various states. We know the cronies have covered up the muck as best they can and will continue to do so.

                  In the finality of it all, likely JD will be at the top of the list of those vigilant at exposing the attempted white wash. Those contributing here will get to the truth of the matter and that will likely help save someone down the line take the safe way despite some poorly informed boss ignorant of how to keep his crews alive.

                  Reply

                  • very true Sonny. Thank you John Dougherty for all the time and energy you keep giving the YHF.

                    Reply

                  • Right on Sonny, you understand from personal experience how the system works to crush the average person. I am really worried about your surgery and my thoughts and prayers are with you. We have unfinished business on the Yarnell Hill Fire Chapter of my book, Betrayed By Our Fire Gods and as you know (and have done) you can download Chapter 1 for free at http://www.ourfiregods.com which basically tells the whole story of what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire to the Mormon Lake Hotshots.

                    Reply

          • Joy…I really do hate to be the one to tell you this. But…no one has even come close to admitting they, or anyone else did anything wrong on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

            REPLY:
            NOT TRUE-
            REPHRASE IT FOR YOU-
            JOY…NO ONE PUBLICLY IN THE MEDIA HAS ….
            I HAVE TOO MUCH AND SONNY TOO… INFORMATION…WHAT DO THEY NAME IT …OH YEAH … IN HOUSE….GOOD THING IT WAS AT A PLACE WITH SURVEILLANCE CAMERAS… “PROOF” SO WE ARE NOT LABELLED “GOSSIP FOLKS”…AS OF 2015, WE NOW KNOW THE IN HOUSE BROTHERHOOD AND HENCE WHY FOR SOOOOOOOOO LONG I SAY “SPEAK UP PUBLICLY” BECAUSE ITS NOT OUR PLACE…
            OORAH—
            THEY DID NOT KNOW WE WERE THE HIKERS WHEN THEY SPOKE ON THE FIRE AND THEY WERE JUST CELEBRATING…
            HOPEFULLY ONE DAY THEY SPEAK UP SO I CAN HAVE MY CLOSURE…

            Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing. If Jeff Whitney is dumb enough to take the high road and resign rather than sign that fucking disgrace of a settlement with the families, appoint me State Forester. I will sign that fucking settlement in a heartbeat. Like I said on this thread a long time ago, we have already established what I am (and certainly what I was)…now we have to just agree on a price!

      Reply

    • And as long as I am in the business of delivering the bad news today…I might as well go ahead and take the plunge and give you some more, just in case you aren’t lit up enough now. As always, I was trying to give you the Readers Digest Version in the best interest of the whole brevity thing.

      BUT, there were at least two people who worked for the Arizona State Division of Forestry on the Yarnell Hill Fire who were criminally stupid. I have hinted at this before, but I am going to just blurt it out (in writing today). Those men were Eric Marsh and unfortunately, Jesse Steed.

      Please see; 18 U.S. Code § 1112 – Manslaughter

      (a) Manslaughter is the unlawful killing of a human being without malice. It is of two kinds:

      Voluntary—Upon a sudden quarrel or heat of passion.

      Involuntary—In the commission of an unlawful act not amounting to a felony,

      *** or in the commission in an unlawful manner, or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.

      So…

      Reply

      • Whoops again. It makes me sick to read this shit too closely.

        or in the commission in an unlawful manner,

        ***or without due caution and circumspection, of a lawful act which might produce death.

        Reply

        • My wife told me today that my best friend (who just happens to be a Yorky mix) in the whole world has cancer and so I really don’t give a fuck about your problems or your feelings right now. Deal with it. We all have our problems.

          Reply

  235. I WILL REPLY BELOW IN CAPS:

    WantsToKnowTheTruth says
    JULY 15, 2015 AT 3:42 PM

    I think McKee is the Father and he was one of the 12. HE IS THE FATHER TO GRANT SCOTT MCKEE BUT HE IS THE JUNIOR AND GRANT WHO DIED WAS THE THIRD…THREE GENERATIONS. HE IS ALSO THE UNCLE TO ROBERT CALDWELL.

    Marcia McKee, Grant’s mother, was the FIRST to file a ‘wrongful death’ action of her own way back when… but she did NOT use attorney Patrick McGroder. She used attorney Craig Knapp of the firm “Knapp and Roberts” in Phoenix, Arizona. I HAVE TO HAVE HOPE IN KNAPP AND MARCIA MCKEE’S CASE THAT BY THEN THE CASE HAS MORE CLARITY BUT HOW AWFUL ALL WILL FEEL IF THEY SETTLE AND MARCIA’S CASE HAS THE CLARITY REACHED…WHERE IS MY HAPPY ENDING? CAN THERE EVEN BE ONE? I GUESS IT IS RIGHT TO SETTLE BECAUSE YOU ARE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT NOTHING FURTHER IS GOING TO HAPPEN SO GRAB THE FUNDS AND DO THE RESEARCH ON YOUR OWN. BUT HELL ….THIS IS GONNA KEEP HAPPENING EVEN WITH ALL THESE ORGANIZATIONS DEDICATING THEIR TIME AND FUNDS FOR THE FALLEN…I THINK OF JIM ROTH. YES AND HIS BROTHER. I THINK HOW COME JIM ROTH HAS TO SEE SUCH ANOTHER TRAGEDY…WASN’T HIS BROTHER’S LIFE ENOUGH…I MEAN IT HAS TO STOP—I AM JUST SAYING…

    >>
    >> So he must not have signed.AS OF THAT WALK HE HAD NOT AND AS OF YESTERDAY SEEM TO NOT YET BE—HE IS NOT DOING THE DELAY TO ANGER ANYONE…I KNOW THAT FIRST HAND…I KNOW SOME WHO COME TO THE SITE DO NOT LIKE WHEN I SAY I GET TO THE SPIRIT OF THINGS YET I CAN TELL YOU GRANT HAS LIVED A LIFE THAT ONE LOOKING IN LOOKS DOWN RIGHT AMAZING YET I SEE THE GOULASH THAT MAKES GRANT, GRANT…HE KNOWS ALL OPTIONS AND WELL IT WOULD BE DOWN RIGHT BEAUTIFUL IF WE HAD THE CONCRETE PIECES THAT MAKE THE PUZZLE COMPLETE AND WELL UNFORTUNATELY IT HAS NOT YET SURFACED SO ALL I CAN DO IS KEEP HAVING LOCALS SAY…”HERE, JOY…HERE IS MY PHOTOS…I DID NOT SEE THE MEANING OF IT…YET I SEE YOUR PASSION AND WE KNOW YOU AND YOUR HEART.”…THAT HAS BEEN THE CURRENT TALK ABOUT ME. I SUPPORT EACH AND EVERYONE OF THESE LOVED ONES DECISIONS EVEN IF ONE DOES NOT MATCH THE OTHER.

    Joy just stated publicly down below ( with Grant McKee, Sr.’sHE IS THE JUNIOR—SENIOR WAS HIS DAD. permission )YES, GRANT SAID TO JOY A. COLLURA BECAUSE JOY KEPT IT QUIET AND HE SAID I WAS HIS FRIEND AND HE HAD NO PROBLEM IF I SHARED IT. I JUST WANTED TO HAVE DISCERNMENT DUE TO THE SENSITIVITY OF THE TOPIC AS WELL JUST IN CASE ONE OF THE OTHERS WHO HAD SIGNED READ THIS SITE I DID NOT WANT IT “MISREAD” LIKE SOME DETAILS IN MY COURT HEARING WAS HEARSAY AND MISCALCULATIONS/MISREAD. IT IS HARD TO SIGN A PAPER LIKE THAT…UNLESS THERE IS A SERIOUS COMMITMENT NOT JUST WORDS BECAUSE TOO MANY FIREFIGHTERS TOLD US ABOUT THE SHELTERS AND THE CHANGE THAT NEVER HAPPEN THERE JUST WORDS ON A PAPER…SO ACTIONS TO CHANGING THE COURSE NOT JUST SAYING/WRITING WHAT I WANT TO HEAR…

    that he has told her in-person YES HE DID…WHAT A SURPRISE TO BUMP INTO HIM…

    that he has NOT signed any ‘settlement’ documents
    EXACTLY

    … and he has NO INTENTIONS of doing so…
    HE MAY BE RE-THINKING IT NOWADAYS…I KNOW HE WILL DO THE BEST THING FOR HIS SON AND NEPHEW. I SUPPORT HIS FINAL DECISION. I AM SO SORRY I CANNOT HAND HIM A PLATTER OF GOODIES TO SEAL THE DEAL OF NOT SIGNING BUT I CAN JUST KEEP BEING AN OPEN DOOR FOR OTHERS TO REACH TO SHARE THEIR ACCOUNTS. I AM NOW NOT THE ONLY PERSON, I HAVE PUT THE WORD OUT IN CASE I AM UNAVAILABLE WHO TO REACH…

    even though HIS ‘wrongful death’ action was one of the 12 ‘enjoined’ cases in Federal Court ( and not Maricopa County District Court ) all handled by attorney Patrick McGroder.
    THAT PRESS CONFERENCE WAS NOT FAIR TO THE LOVED ONES IN MY HUMBLE OPINION. WWTKTT AND GARY ARE CORRECT ON THEIR COMMENTS. I SUPPORT THAT.

    ———————————————————————–
    On July 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm, Joy A. Collura said…

    I asked Grant Scott McKee due to discernment I would
    remain quiet and he said no need— I could publicly share
    Grant McKee who Sonny and I recently spent time with stated
    to hikers FIRST HAND he did not and was not signing

    I got first hand he had NOT signed any settlements.
    ———————————————————————–

    It’s unclear how that’s actually going to work, legally speaking. I WISH I COULD GIVE SOME HELP ON TOPIC BUT I DO NOT KNOW THE COURT WORLD AND DON’T UNDERSTAND ALOT OF IT—I TOOK STREET LAW IN HS BUT THAT WAS MORE OF A BULLSHIT—MORE LIKE A DEBATE CLASS OR THE TEACHER TEACHING KIDS HOW THE SYSTEM WORKS AND HE WOULD TELL US A SCENARIO AND HE WOULD TELL US THE MAN IS INDEED INNOCENT BUT OUR JOB WAS TO MAKE HIM GUILTY AND BUILD THE CASE.

    It would appear that unless Mr. McKee accepts the ‘settlement’ that was ( supposedly ) negotiated by attorney Patrick McGroder… then his ‘wrongful death’ case must then be de-coupled from the others who ARE deciding to ‘settle’… and then his valid ‘wrongful death’ suit can then proceed to trial.BUT DOES MCGRODER HAVE TO TAKE THE DE-COUPLED CASE OR DOES IT LAY IN LINGO UNTIL A LAWYER STEPS UP TO THE PLATE TO CARRY IT OUT?

    Negotiating settlements in cases that have been ‘enjoined’ is NOT a democracy.

    Just because a majority of the other ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs might want to make a deal with the defendants doesn’t mean that all the other plaintiffs have to just “go along with the majority”.
    BUT IT FEELS LIKE IT WITH THE PRESSURE AND ANGRY PEOPLE—

    Doesn’t work that way.

    What is astounding is that there was NO MENTION of this during the ‘dog and pony’ show over the ‘settlement’ that took place just two weeks ago.
    WELL, THAT WAS THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY SHOW BECAUSE TO ME IT WAS PREMATURELY STATED…UNTIL ALL SIGNATURES HAPPENED…

    Reply

    • REPLY TO:

      I KNOW SOME WHO COME TO THE SITE DO NOT LIKE WHEN I SAY I GET TO THE SPIRIT OF THINGS

      ———————-
      DEFINE SITE JOY. RIGHHHHTTT…. SITE= JOHN DOUGHERTY’S INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA SITE; WEBSITE. I DO NOT NEED ANOTHER MISUNDERSTANDING THERE.

      Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 16, 2015 at 11:19 am

      >> Joy A. Collura asked…
      >>
      >> DOES MCGRODER HAVE TO TAKE THE DE-COUPLED CASE?

      No. A valid court case does not BELONG to any particular attorney, even if he is the one who initially FILED the case. Plaintiffs ( AND Defendants ) are free to switch lawyers at any time.

      >> Joy A. Collura also asked…
      >>
      >> DOES IT LAY IN LINGO UNTIL A LAWYER STEPS UP TO THE
      >> PLATE TO CARRY IT OUT?

      Well… if a lawyer for either a Defendant or a Plaintiff up and QUITS during a trial… then of course there is a period when that case is ‘on hold’ until NEW counsel is either obtained or assigned. It happens.

      Typically… in a CIVIL case… the presiding Judge would only let it “LAY IN LINGO” for a certain amount of time ( due to either attorney health issues or the actual lack of an assigned attorney )… before he/she can issue what is called a ‘default judgement’… but that ‘certain amount of time’ has to be fair and reasonable or his ‘decision’ would never survive even the simplest of APPEALS.

      Civil Court cases all have to ‘resolve’ in some way.

      They can’t just ‘disappear’ for no reason.

      The case either has to be ‘settled out of court’ ( with each and every named plaintiff signing documents that they ACCEPT the settlement as a ‘resolution’ of the case )… OR it has to be officially DISMISSED by the Judge ( but there has to be a REASON for dismissal which can then also be appealed )… OR… the case has to actually go to TRIAL and a decision rendered by either a Judge alone or by a Jury.

      The Yarnell ‘wrongful death’ cases are all ‘Jury Trials’.

      If/when any of these cases ‘go to court’… it will be one or more JURIES deciding the cases, not a Judge alone.

      Reply

  236. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 13, 2015 at 11:17 pm

    >> Joy Collura said…
    >>
    >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE2QkGLstF0
    >>
    >> here is the video Sonny where you almost blew off the Weavers; soft giggles.

    Joy… thank you for reposting a link to that particular video.

    I was wondering if you could verify something for me.

    For THIS video… you appear to be standing in the EXACT SAME SPOT as when you shot that now FAMOUS photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on Sunday morning with their backs to you and hiking AWAY from you and up that two-track towards where they were going to be working.

    The KEY is that rock formation to the left side of the two-track seen as you pan the camera to the right ( to the east ) in THIS video.

    It’s a large rock formation that looks like a stack of pancakes on a breakfast plate.

    That is the EXACT same rock formation as seen in your now-famous photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking in a line on Sunday morning… correct?

    Reply

    • Followup…

      To be specific… at exactly 18.5 seconds into this video is almost an identical shot as that now-famous photo you took of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking away from you on Sunday morning… but this frame at 18.5 seconds in the video now shows the AFTERMATH of what happened to that area where that famous GM-Hiking-Up-The-Ridge photo was taken.

      Correct?

      Reply

    • reply in CAPS below:

      WantsToKnowTheTruth says
      JULY 15, 2015 AT 3:43 PM

      >>
      >> ht tp s :/ /www.youtube.c o m/watch?v=JE2QkGLstF0

      Joy… thank you for reposting a link to that particular video.
      YOU ARE WELCOME.

      I was wondering if you could verify something for me.
      YOU BET.

      For THIS video… you appear to be standing in the EXACT SAME SPOT as when you shot that now FAMOUS photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on Sunday morning with their backs to you and hiking AWAY from you and up that two-track towards where they were going to be working.
      INCORRECT. I AM ON PRESCOTT LIBRARY DESKTOP WITH FULL VIEW OF THE YOUTUBE LINK VS TINY CELL AND THE SPOT THE MEN PASSED ME IS ACTUALLY MARKER 25/32 WHERE THERE IS THE LETTER “N” IN DIRT AND TO THE RIGHT OF THAT DIRT “N” IS THE LAST SPOT WE PASS THE MEN AND SO I WAS ACTUALLY EVEN BELOW THAT SPOT TO TAKE THE PHOTO YOU SAID WAS AT 18.5/32… I DID TAKE THE PHOTO YET NOT IN THAT SPOT BUT YOU ARE CORRECT THAT MARKER 18.5 IS THE INFAMOUS PHOTO FROM HERE http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1597…CAN YOU DO ONE OF YOUR TRICKS AND OVERLAP IT IN A YOUTUBE THING LIKE I SEEN YOU DO BEFORE ON BLUE RIDGE AND MY PICS-

      It’s a large rock formation that looks like a stack of pancakes on a breakfast plate.QUITE A FEW LIKE THAT IN AREA

      That is the EXACT same rock formation as seen in your now-famous photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking in a line on Sunday morning… correct? YES.

      WantsToKnowTheTruth says
      JULY 15, 2015 AT 3:43 PM

      Followup…

      To be specific… at exactly 18.5 seconds into this video is almost an identical shot as that now-famous photo you took of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking away from you on Sunday morning… but this frame at 18.5 seconds in the video now shows the AFTERMATH of what happened to that area where that famous GM-Hiking-Up-The-Ridge photo was taken.

      Correct? I COULD CRY RIGHT NOW BECAUSE THAT USE TO BE BEFORE THE FIRE MY PLACE OF SERENITY TO GO TO AND NOW I AM WRITING ABOUT IT BEING THE AFTERMATH VIDEO TO A INFAMOUS PHOTO. A PLACE I WENT FOR PEACE I AM LEGALLY BANNED FROM…FREAKING SAD WORLD…TO HAVE PEOPLE EVEN WANT TO BAN ME OR ANYONE IS DOWN RIGHT WRONG…WHEN THE TRAGEDY IN THE EARLY 1900’S HAPPENED WE DID NOT SEE THE RESTRICTION LIKE WE DO NOW…AND THEY COVERED THAT UP BACK THEN SO WHY SO TIGHT NOWADAYS—SOME SAY LITIGATION—YET TO ME THE COURT CRAP HAS TURNED OUT TO BE LIKE YOU SAID A HORSE AND PONY SHOW …. YOU SEE THIS SETTLEMENT AND THE FEW WHO ARE TORN TO SIGN IS HARD ON ME BECAUSE THEY FEEL THERE IS NOT ENOUGH TO BRING IT TO TRIAL TO ACTUALLY WIN—WWTKTT, ANY VIEWS OR THOUGHTS? I AM AT A LOSS FOR WORDS. IF ONLY THE PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE THE CLARITY WOULD “FINALLY” SPEAK UP…OTIS IS RIGHT…OTIS IS RIGHT…HOW IS IT AUTO-CALLING/NUISANCE GOT MORE MONEY THAN THE LOSS OF SO MANY LIVES.

      Reply

      • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 16, 2015 at 10:44 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> I WAS ACTUALLY EVEN BELOW THAT SPOT TO TAKE THE
        >> PHOTO YOU SAID WAS AT 18.5/32… I DID TAKE THE PHOTO
        >> YET NOT IN THAT SPOT BUT YOU ARE CORRECT THAT
        >> MARKER 18.5 IS THE INFAMOUS PHOTO FROM HERE
        >> http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=99&SubSectionID=1597

        Thank you, Joy. Extremely helpful information.

        >> Joy A. Collura also said…
        >>
        >> CAN YOU DO ONE OF YOUR TRICKS AND OVERLAP IT IN
        >> A YOUTUBE THING LIKE I SEEN YOU DO BEFORE

        Already working on it. That is, in fact, why I asked the question.

        >> Joy A. Collura also said…
        >>
        >> THIS SETTLEMENT AND THE FEW WHO ARE TORN TO SIGN
        >> IS HARD ON ME BECAUSE THEY FEEL THERE IS NOT ENOUGH
        >> TO BRING IT TO TRIAL TO ACTUALLY WIN.
        >>
        >> WWTKTT, ANY VIEWS OR THOUGHTS?

        I believe I have been saying this all along… but if everything ALL of family members who have filed suit have always been saying they WANT out of the litigation is true ( The TRUTH and real CLARITY as to the events of that entire weekend )…

        …then WINNING is NOT THE POINT.

        It absolutely does NOT MATTER whether they feel there is enough ‘evidence’ to WIN the case(s) before just letting them go to trial.

        What the families actually WANT will, almost assuredly, all come out DURING the normal course of the trial(s)… no matter whether they (quote) “win or lose”.the case(s) in the ‘end’.

        NONE of the family members have said these filings have been, in ANY way, shape or form, about the MONEY. The only reason there are ‘monetary damages’ attached to the filings at all is because there pretty much HAVE to be ‘compensatory damages’ claimed in order to even FILE a ‘wrongful death’ suit.

        So again… it should not matter one hoot-in-heck to ANY of the family members whether one or more juries decides in favor of Arizona Forestry, in any of the cases that are allowed to proceed to trial.

        By the time even just ONE of the ‘wrongful death’ suits finishes up in the courtroom… the ANSWERS to probably ALL of the lingering ‘mysteries’ about that entire weekend will most probably all be known.

        In other words… that’s where the TRUTH and the CLARITY that ALL of the families say they WANT is going to come from.

        It WILL come from the testimony of the LOOOOONG list of ‘witnesses’ that will be called to the stand and finally have to tell the WHOLE truth… and not just the PARTS of it that fit their own personal agendas.

        Reply

  237. Reply to Bob Powers post on July 14, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    NOTE: This posting has been carried forward from the end of the previous Chapter XV ( 15 ).

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> I think McKee is the Father and he was one of the 12.

    Yes. As Grant McKee’s father, he had the ‘standing’ to file his OWN ( separate ) ‘wrongful death’ action on the part of his son… and HE did so through attorney Patrick McGroder who was handling all 12 of those ‘enjoined’ cases in Federal Court.

    Marcia McKee, Grant’s mother, was the FIRST to file a ‘wrongful death’ action of her own way back when… but she did NOT use attorney Patrick McGroder. She used attorney Craig Knapp of the firm “Knapp and Roberts” in Phoenix, Arizona.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> So he must not have signed.

    Joy just stated publicly down below ( with Grant McKee, Sr.’s permission ) that he has told her in-person that he has NOT signed any ‘settlement’ documents… and he has NO INTENTIONS of doing so… even though HIS ‘wrongful death’ action was one of the 12 ‘enjoined’ cases in Federal Court ( and not Maricopa County District Court ) all handled by attorney Patrick McGroder.

    ———————————————————————–
    On July 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm, Joy A. Collura said…

    I asked Grant Scott McKee due to discernment I would
    remain quiet and he said no need— I could publicly share
    Grant McKee who Sonny and I recently spent time with stated
    to hikers FIRST HAND he did not and was not signing

    I got first hand he had NOT signed any settlements.
    ———————————————————————–

    It’s unclear how that’s actually going to work, legally speaking.

    It would appear that unless Mr. McKee accepts the ‘settlement’ that was ( supposedly ) negotiated by attorney Patrick McGroder… then his ‘wrongful death’ case must then be de-coupled from the others who ARE deciding to ‘settle’… and then his valid ‘wrongful death’ suit can then proceed to trial.

    Negotiating settlements in cases that have been ‘enjoined’ is NOT a democracy.

    Just because a majority of the other ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs might want to make a deal with the defendants doesn’t mean that all the other plaintiffs have to just “go along with the majority”.

    Doesn’t work that way.

    What is astounding is that there was NO MENTION of this during the ‘dog and pony’ show over the ‘settlement’ that took place just two weeks ago.

    Everyone involved in that ‘dog and pony’ show ( attorney McGroder, Arizona State Attorney General Mark Brnovich, State Forester Jeff Whitney, etc., etc. ) made it sound like everything was a ‘done deal’ and that ALL of the 12 ‘plaintiffs’ were ‘onboard’ with the settlement.

    Apparently… not so much.

    The only three plaintiffs ( out of the 12 enjoined cases all being handled by McGroder ) that we seem to be able to be SURE have ‘accepted’ the ‘deal’ would be the three that were standing there at the ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29.

    That would be Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke.

    Only Pfingston and Warneke actually spoke publicly and SAID they were ‘onboard’ with the deal being announced that day ( June 29, 2015 ).

    It can be ASSUMED that Juliann Aschcraft is, as well, but she did NOT take the opportunity to speak and to say so publicly.

    Heck… for all we know… ONLY these 3 plaintiffs are ‘accepting the deal’, and the ‘dog and pony’ was meant to blow smoke at the press and make them think that ALL of the 12 ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs were ‘onboard’ with the deal.

    Maybe nothing could be further from the truth.

    >> Bob Powers also asked…
    >>
    >> Do you know if the other 2 are part of the 12 or separate?

    If you mean the two ‘wrongful death’ cases that were ‘enjoined’ with Marcia McKee’s over in Maricopa County District Court ( on behalf of GM Hotshots John Percin, Jr. and Jesse Steed in addition to the one for Grant McKee )…

    …then all THREE of these ‘wrongful death’ cases are NOT part of the 12 that were being handled exclusively by attorney Patrick McGroder.

    They are SEPARATE CASES, and weren’t even part of the ‘mediation’ talks, as far as we know.

    Again… there was absolutely NO MENTION of these realities during that ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29… but back when all this ‘global mediation’ stuff was announced AZCENTRAL did a good job ( back then ) of making the distinction.

    AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Yarnell hotshots’ death case going to mediation
    Published 9:10 p.m. MST January 16, 2015 – by Dennis Wagner
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/01/16/yarnell-hotshots-death-case-going-mediation/21901207/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————–
    FIFTEEN (15) family members of hotshots have sued the Division of Forestry based on claims of negligence in overseeing the fire suppression effort.

    TWELVE (12) hotshot family members are plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit, and THREE (3) more filed their case in (Maricopa) County Superior Court.

    “The families believe this is an opportunity to discuss with the state options to resolve their cases in a way that hopefully reflects changes and transparency, and will ensure that a tragedy like this never happens again,” said Patrick McGroder III, an attorney for Juliann Ashcraft and the other ELEVEN (11) plaintiffs in the FEDERAL complaint.

    Attorney Craig Knapp, who represents the OTHER (3) hotshot family members in a parallel wrongful-death action in Maricopa County Superior Court, said he also asked that litigation be put on hold pending efforts to negotiate a settlement.

    Knapp said he’s prepared to go to trial, but willing to seek a resolution. “Our clients want change,” he added. “They want answers. They want to make sure this doesn’t happen to anyone else. And they want the state to take responsibility for what happened. Too many people died.”
    ——————————————————————–

    So there it is.

    AZCENTRAL reported that while attorney Craig Knapp ( representing Marcia McKee and family members for John Percin Jr. and Jesse Steed ) was fully aware of these ‘mediation’ efforts… he was NOT part of what attorney McGroder was doing with the cases over in FEDERAL court. That was just 12 of the 15 wrongful death lawsuits. The other THREE were ( and are STILL ) duly registered cases in Maricopa County District Court.

    Knapp seemed to say HE was also willing to put the Maricopa County cases ‘on hold’ for ‘talks’… those negotiations would be SEPARATE from whatever ‘deal’ McGroder was trying to work for the 12 clients HE represents.

    And now that the families involved in the other THREE wrongful death suits over in Maricopa County have seen what Arizona Forestry’s idea of a ‘settlement’ is over there in FEDERAL court… it’s pretty doubtful they will accept the same piss-poor deal.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> McKee’s mother filed separate suit. in California?

    No. She filed her own separate ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee, through attorney Craig Knapp of the firm “Knapp and Roberts” in Phoenix, Arizona.

    Her ‘wrongful death’ case ( and the other two for John Percin Jr. and Jesse Steed ) are all active in Arizona’s Maricopa County District Court.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> We do not know what others have not Signed off on the agreement
    >> unless they release that or the news media gets ahold of it.

    Correct.

    As I said above… for all we know at this point… the ONLY plaintiffs of the 12 that were being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder over there in FEDERAL court that are actually WILLING to ‘accept’ this one-sided ( bogus ) settlement offer from Arizona Forestry would be the ones that bothered to show up at the ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29.

    Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke.

    We’ve also now ‘heard’ from Grant McKee’s father… and he says in no uncertain terms he is NOT going to ‘sign any settlement agreement’ and is ready to “go to trial” and find out what really happened to his son and push for even more CLEAR ‘industry changes’.

    That still leaves ELEVEN ( 11 ) ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs that need to be heard from as to whether or not they still want their own cases to go to trial.

    And remember… there only needs to be ONE case that remains active and proceeds to trial in order for anyone and everyone who had anything to do with the tragedy to be called to the witness stand and have to tell the WHOLE truth this time ( under penalty of perjury )… and not just the ‘part’ of the truth that fits their own personal agenda(s).

    >> On July 15, 2015 at 10:31 am, Bob Powers replied…
    >>
    >>
    >> Thanks that’s what I Thought so more to come.

    Reply

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