Investigative MEDIA

Comments

  2. Reply to Bob Powers post on July 14, 2015 at 1:37 pm

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> I think McKee is the Father and he was one of the 12.

    Yes. As Grant McKee’s father, he had the ‘standing’ to file his OWN ( separate ) ‘wrongful death’ action on the part of his son… and HE did so through attorney Patrick McGroder who was handling all 12 of those ‘enjoined’ cases in Federal Court.

    Marcia McKee, Grant’s mother, was the FIRST to file a ‘wrongful death’ action of her own way back when… but she did NOT use attorney Patrick McGroder. She used attorney Craig Knapp of the firm “Knapp and Roberts” in Phoenix, Arizona.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> So he must not have signed.

    Joy just stated publicly down below ( with Grant McKee, Sr.’s permission ) that he has told her in-person that he has NOT signed any ‘settlement’ documents… and he has NO INTENTIONS of doing so… even though HIS ‘wrongful death’ action was one of the 12 ‘enjoined’ cases in Federal Court ( and not Maricopa County District Court ) all handled by attorney Patrick McGroder.

    ———————————————————————–
    On July 14, 2015 at 1:25 pm, Joy A. Collura said…

    I asked Grant Scott McKee due to discernment I would
    remain quiet and he said no need— I could publicly share
    Grant McKee who Sonny and I recently spent time with stated
    to hikers FIRST HAND he did not and was not signing

    I got first hand he had NOT signed any settlements.
    ———————————————————————–

    It’s unclear how that’s actually going to work, legally speaking.

    It would appear that unless Mr. McKee accepts the ‘settlement’ that was ( supposedly ) negotiated by attorney Patrick McGroder… then his ‘wrongful death’ case must then be de-coupled from the others who ARE deciding to ‘settle’… and then his valid ‘wrongful death’ suit can then proceed to trial.

    Negotiating settlements in cases that have been ‘enjoined’ is NOT a democracy.

    Just because a majority of the other ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs might want to make a deal with the defendants doesn’t mean that all the other plaintiffs have to just “go along with the majority”.

    Doesn’t work that way.

    What is astounding is that there was NO MENTION of this during the ‘dog and pony’ show over the ‘settlement’ that took place just two weeks ago.

    Everyone involved in that ‘dog and pony’ show ( attorney McGroder, Arizona State Attorney General Mark Brnovich, State Forester Jeff Whitney, etc., etc. ) made it sound like everything was a ‘done deal’ and that ALL of the 12 ‘plaintiffs’ were ‘onboard’ with the settlement.

    Apparently… not so much.

    The only three plaintiffs ( out of the 12 enjoined cases all being handled by McGroder ) that we seem to be able to be SURE have ‘accepted’ the ‘deal’ would be the three that were standing there at the ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29.

    That would be Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke.

    Only Pfingston and Warneke actually spoke publicly and SAID they were ‘onboard’ with the deal being announced that day ( June 29, 2015 ).

    It can be ASSUMED that Juliann Aschcraft is, as well, but she did NOT take the opportunity to speak and to say so publicly.

    Heck… for all we know… ONLY these 3 plaintiffs are ‘accepting the deal’, and the ‘dog and pony’ was meant to blow smoke at the press and make them think that ALL of the 12 ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs were ‘onboard’ with the deal.

    Maybe nothing could be further from the truth.

    >> Bob Powers also asked…
    >>
    >> Do you know if the other 2 are part of the 12 or separate?

    If you mean the two ‘wrongful death’ cases that were ‘enjoined’ with Marcia McKee’s over in Maricopa County District Court ( on behalf of GM Hotshots John Percin, Jr. and Jesse Steed in addition to the one for Grant McKee )…

    …then all THREE of these ‘wrongful death’ cases are NOT part of the 12 that were being handled exclusively by attorney Patrick McGroder.

    They are SEPARATE CASES, and weren’t even part of the ‘mediation’ talks, as far as we know.

    Again… there was absolutely NO MENTION of these realities during that ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29… but back when all this ‘global mediation’ stuff was announced AZCENTRAL did a good job ( back then ) of making the distinction.

    AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Yarnell hotshots’ death case going to mediation
    Published 9:10 p.m. MST January 16, 2015 – by Dennis Wagner
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/01/16/yarnell-hotshots-death-case-going-mediation/21901207/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————–
    FIFTEEN (15) family members of hotshots have sued the Division of Forestry based on claims of negligence in overseeing the fire suppression effort.

    TWELVE (12) hotshot family members are plaintiffs in the federal lawsuit, and THREE (3) more filed their case in (Maricopa) County Superior Court.

    “The families believe this is an opportunity to discuss with the state options to resolve their cases in a way that hopefully reflects changes and transparency, and will ensure that a tragedy like this never happens again,” said Patrick McGroder III, an attorney for Juliann Ashcraft and the other ELEVEN (11) plaintiffs in the FEDERAL complaint.

    Attorney Craig Knapp, who represents the OTHER (3) hotshot family members in a parallel wrongful-death action in Maricopa County Superior Court, said he also asked that litigation be put on hold pending efforts to negotiate a settlement.

    Knapp said he’s prepared to go to trial, but willing to seek a resolution. “Our clients want change,” he added. “They want answers. They want to make sure this doesn’t happen to anyone else. And they want the state to take responsibility for what happened. Too many people died.”
    ——————————————————————–

    So there it is.

    AZCENTRAL reported that while attorney Craig Knapp ( representing Marcia McKee and family members for John Percin Jr. and Jesse Steed ) was fully aware of these ‘mediation’ efforts… he was NOT part of what attorney McGroder was doing with the cases over in FEDERAL court. That was just 12 of the 15 wrongful death lawsuits. The other THREE were ( and are STILL ) duly registered cases in Maricopa County District Court.

    Knapp seemed to say HE was also willing to put the Maricopa County cases ‘on hold’ for ‘talks’… those negotiations would be SEPARATE from whatever ‘deal’ McGroder was trying to work for the 12 clients HE represents.

    And now that the families involved in the other THREE wrongful death suits over in Maricopa County have seen what Arizona Forestry’s idea of a ‘settlement’ is over there in FEDERAL court… it’s pretty doubtful they will accept the same piss-poor deal.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> McKee’s mother filed separate suit. in California?

    No. She filed her own separate ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of her son, Grant McKee, through attorney Craig Knapp of the firm “Knapp and Roberts” in Phoenix, Arizona.

    Her ‘wrongful death’ case ( and the other two for John Percin Jr. and Jesse Steed ) are all active in Arizona’s Maricopa County District Court.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> We do not know what others have not Signed off on the agreement
    >> unless they release that or the news media gets ahold of it.

    Correct.

    As I said above… for all we know at this point… the ONLY plaintiffs of the 12 that were being handled by attorney Patrick McGroder over there in FEDERAL court that are actually WILLING to ‘accept’ this one-sided ( bogus ) settlement offer from Arizona Forestry would be the ones that bothered to show up at the ‘dog and pony’ show on June 29.

    Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke.

    We’ve also now ‘heard’ from Grant McKee’s father… and he says in no uncertain terms he is NOT going to ‘sign any settlement agreement’ and is ready to “go to trial” and find out what really happened to his son and push for even more CLEAR ‘industry changes’.

    That still leaves ELEVEN ( 11 ) ‘wrongful death’ plaintiffs that need to be heard from as to whether or not they still want their own cases to go to trial.

    And remember… there only needs to be ONE case that remains active and proceeds to trial in order for anyone and everyone who had anything to do with the tragedy to be called to the witness stand and have to tell the WHOLE truth this time ( under penalty of perjury )… and not just the ‘part’ of the truth that fits their own personal agenda(s).

    Reply

  3. Reply to Joy A. Collura post on July 13, 2015 at 11:17 pm

    >> Joy Collura said…
    >>
    >> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JE2QkGLstF0
    >>
    >> here is the video Sonny where you almost blew off the Weavers; soft giggles.

    Joy… thank you for reposting a link to that particular video.

    I was wondering if you could verify something for me.

    For THIS video… you appear to be standing in the EXACT SAME SPOT as when you shot that now FAMOUS photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on Sunday morning with their backs to you and hiking AWAY from you and up that two-track towards where they were going to be working.

    The KEY is that rock formation to the left side of the two-track seen as you pan the camera to the right ( to the east ) in THIS video.

    It’s a large rock formation that looks like a stack of pancakes on a breakfast plate.

    That is the EXACT same rock formation as seen in your now-famous photo of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking in a line on Sunday morning… correct?

    Reply

    • To be specific… at exactly 18.5 seconds into this video is almost an identical shot as that now-famous photo you took of the Granite Mountain Hotshots hiking away from you on Sunday morning… but this frame at 18.5 seconds in the video now shows the AFTERMATH of what happened to that area where that famous GM-Hiking-Up-The-Ridge photo was taken.

      Correct?

      Reply

  4. **
    ** AT LEAST THREE YARNELL RELATED ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’
    ** LAWSUITS ARE STILL HEADED FOR TRIAL?

    As reported already by InvestigativeMEDIA… the recently announced ‘settlement’ of the 12-party enjoined ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits does NOT include the original ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit filed by Marcia McKee, the mother of deceased Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee.

    Marcia McKee filed the FIRST ‘wrongful death’ lawsuit, but it was NOT through Prescott attorney Patrick McGroder. She used attorney Craig Knapp instead.

    The actual PUBLIC ‘Case Docket’ for that Marcia McKee lawsuit says it is still on its way to trial… with oral arguments in the case already scheduled.

    The last ‘entry’ in the case docket was back on May 19, 2015, but there is nothing to indicate that the case has been ‘settled’ or ‘dismissed’… so it remains an ‘active court docket’.

    Indeed… the case docket itself still says “There are NO JUDGEMENTS ON FILE”.

    The most recent entries actually just show that the ‘oral arguments’ regarding a standard ‘motion to dismiss’ ( filed by Arizona Forestry in an attempt to stop the case from proceeding to trial ) just keep getting ‘reset’ and ‘rescheduled’.

    NOTE: Arizona Forestry filed the same sort of ‘motions to dismiss’ in all the other cases they have been involved with. It’s always ‘worth a shot’ for them to attempt to do this. Arizona Forestry apparently first FILED this standard ‘Motion to Dismiss’ almost a YEAR ago, on August 29, 2014, but they still have yet to have ‘oral arguments’ with regards to this motion.

    This ( public ) online ‘case docket’ in Maricopa County Superior Court for Marcia McKee’s ongoing ‘wrongful death’ suit is at the following link…

    NOTE: This online docket shows events happening in the case and when documents were being filed in the case, and about what, but it does not contain links to the documents themselves.

    https://www.superiorcourt.maricopa.gov/docket/CivilCourtCases/caseInfo.asp?caseNumber=CV2014-009068

    Information showing ( as of today ) in the public case docket…
    —————————————————————–
    Case Number:CV2014-009068
    Judge: Gama, J. Richard
    File Date: 6/26/2014
    Location: Downtown
    Case Type: Civil

    Judgments – There are no judgments on file

    Party Information
    Party Name, Relationship, Sex, Attorney
    —————————————————–
    Kylie Steinmetz, Plaintiff, Male, Craig Knapp
    Desirre McCarthy, Plaintiff, Female, Craig Knapp
    State Of Arizona, Defendant, ?, Brock Heathcotte
    Arizona State Forestry Division, Defendant, ?, Brock Heathcotte
    Marcia McKee, Consolidated, Female, Craig Knapp
    Herman O Federwisch, Consolidated, Male, Craig Knapp
    Michael Parrish, Endorsement Case, Male, MICHAEL PARRISH
    ———————————————————

    Case Documents
    ——————————————————–
    Filing Date, Description, Docket Date, Filing Party

    5/19/2015, 095 – ME: Oral Argument Reset, 5/19/2015
    1/16/2015, 095 – ME: Oral Argument Reset, 1/16/2015
    1/15/2015, ORD – Order, 1/21/2015
    NOTE: VACATING THE ORAL ARGUMENT ON THE PENDING MOTIONS TO DISMISS IN THE CONSOLIDATED STEINMETZ FEDERWISCH AND MCKEE CASES
    1/5/2015, STP – Stipulation, 1/6/2015
    NOTE: STIPULATION TO VACATE AND RESCHEDULE ORAL ARGUMENT ON PENDING MOTIONS TO DISMISS
    12/3/2014, 053 – ME: Case Consolidation, 12/3/2014
    12/3/2014, 311 – ME: 150 Day Minute Entry, 12/3/2014
    11/26/2014, 339 – ME: 100 Day Notice, 11/26/2014
    10/31/2014, REL – Reply, 11/4/2014
    NOTE: REPLY IN SUPPORT OF MOTION TO DISMISS
    10/21/2014, NOT – Notice, 10/21/2014
    NOTE: Rule 7.1(g)Notice of Second Extension of Time to File Memoranda
    10/6/2014, MEM – Memorandum, 10/7/2014
    NOTE: JOINT RULE 16.3(a) MEMORANDUM
    9/29/2014, RES – Response, 9/30/2014
    NOTE: Response to Motion to Dismiss
    9/15/2014, RES – Response, 9/16/2014
    NOTE: RESPONSE BY THE STEINMETZ, FEDERWISCH, AND McKEE PLAINTIFFS TO THE MOTION TO CONSOLIDATE FOUR CASES: CV 2014-009068, CV 2014-009069, CV 2014-009070, AND CV 2014-009160, PURSUANT TO RULE 42(a), ARCP
    8/29/2014, MTD – Motion To Dismiss, 8/29/2014
    NOTE: Motion to Dismiss
    8/29/2014, MCD – Motion To Consolidate, 9/2/2014
    NOTE: MOTION TO CONSOLIDATE FOUR CASES: CV2014-009068, CV2014-009069, CV2014-009070, AND CV2014-009160, PURSUANT TO RULE 42(a), ARCP
    ———————————————————

    ** THREE GM HOTSHOTS ARE STILL REPRESENTED

    There are actually THREE ‘plaintiffs’ who are part of this remaining ‘wrongful death’ action.

    Notice above the referenced to CONSOLIDATION around September 15, 2014.

    At least THREE of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits WERE ‘consolidated’ into this one Maricopa County court case.

    There are THREE ‘plaintiffs’ remaining…

    Plaintiff McKee on behalf of GM Hotshot Grant McKee
    Plaintiff Steinmetz on behalf of GM Hotshot John Percin, Jr.
    Plaintiff Federwisch on behalf of GM Hotshot Jesse Steed.

    So ( apparently ) family members for GM Hotshots Grante McKee, John Percin Jr., and Jesse Steed have NOT made any kind of settlement agreement with Arizona Forestry and those cases are still ( apparently ) proceeding to TRIAL.

    There also still has been no POSITIVE CONFIRMATION that ALL 12 of the ‘plaintiffs’ in the OTHER ‘Patrick McGroder’ suits that ( supposedly ) just got ‘settled’ have actually ALL AGREED to the terms of the settlement.

    The only two family members we actually heard from during the press conference were Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke, nor has anyone see the actual ‘signatures’ of ALL 12 of the ‘plaintiffs’ showing that they ‘accept’ the proposed settlement.

    It is still possible that one ( or more ) of the 12 ‘enjoined’ plaintiffs will NOT accept the terms of the settlement… and then those case get ‘de-coupled’ from the group agreement and proceed to trial on their own.

    And all it takes is just ONE case proceeding to trial in order for anyone and everyone who had anything to do with this tragedy being called as a ‘witness’ and having to SWEAR ( under penalty of perjury now ) to tell the TRUTH, and ( most importantly ) the WHOLE TRUTH… and NOT just the part that fits your own agenda.

    More about all these ( still pending? ) wrongful death suits later.

    Reply

    • I asked Grant Scott McKee due to discernment I would remain quiet and he said no need— I could publicly share Grant McKee who Sonny and I recently spent time with stated to hikers FIRST HAND he did not and was not signing so Grant McKee asked Joy what information would it take for Joy to find closure in all this and I said recently local Brent Yadon asked that and now that I know he has not signed—publicly speaking to John Dougherty, Bill Gabbert and Morgan Loew to make sure it hits media platform that what happen in the news last week is not reality….I got first hand he had not signed any settlements. I also told him there cannot be a day until this fire is properly assessed and the proper people SPEAK UP…than and only than can I have closure.

      Reply

    • I think McKee is the Father and he was one of the 12. So he must not have signed.
      Do you know if the other 2 are part of the 12 or separate?
      McKee’s mother filed separate suit. in California?
      We do not know what others have not Signed off on the agreement unless they release that or the news media gets ahold of it.

      Reply

  5. Saw this news item the other day and thought it just put the Settlement into perspective with regards the payouts and fines;

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/business/2015/07/07/time-warner-robocalls/29846041/

    It makes an absolute mockery of the whole fines and victim awards for YHF!

    There should not be a comparison here, but the amount awarded for being harassed by automated calls is staggering when you compare it to the fines where people actually died.

    Reply

    • Thank you Otis. I think your comment and the corresponding link sums up what I have been trying to say lately very nicely. And you are right of course, there shouldn’t be a comparison between the two situations but unfortunately there is one.

      Reply

    • Thank you, Otis.

      It seems the REAL ‘equivalent’ here would be if this person stated publicly they had no intentions of getting the ‘automated calling’ company to ever admit they were doing anything wrong… and they ended up settling the suit ( for a fraction of what was being demanded ) just based on some VERBAL ‘promises’ from the company that they would ‘take a look at current policy and practices’ and ‘see where we can make some changes’.

      People don’t like lawsuits… but the way we have structured our society and our organizations… sometimes it’s the ONLY thing that can FORCE CHANGE upon people ( and organizations ) that DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE.

      You have to hit ’em where it hurts… right smack in the WALLET.

      Sad, but true.

      Reply

      • WWTKTT said:
        People don’t like lawsuits… but the way we have structured our society and our organizations… sometimes it’s the ONLY thing that can FORCE CHANGE upon people ( and organizations ) that DO NOT WANT TO CHANGE.

        reply:
        I can say some of the loved ones of the GMHS feel this IS THE ONLY reason for their suits—- THEY WANT CHANGE!

        Reply

      • WWTKTT said:
        People don’t like lawsuits.

        Actually…that statement should read, MOST people don’t like lawsuits. That is just one of the nice things about being off the reservation with no intention to ever go back!

        FYI…Retirement funds can’t be taken by anyone except the IRS, and I don’t have anything except those. So…I really enjoy telling attorneys to kiss my ass, in fact, I have made a retirement hobby of doing just that.

        Reply

  7. Oh…and one more thing. I guess his federal retirement isn’t enough to enable Mr. Jeff Whitney to finish his otherwise stellar and honorable career with his head held high? A mighty Coconino hotshot alum needs the 30 pieces of silver (check it…a Biblical reference) the state of Arizona is paying him to sign off on screwing the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew Families?

    I know the state of Arizona isn’t paying more than that, it just isn’t in their nature. Somebody has to sign off on that disgrace of a settlement, but does it have to be a former Coconino hotshot?

    All of us have our price, and now wildland firefighting history will record exactly how much Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney’s is…right?

    Wait, is this too harsh?

    Reply

    • I think you, yourself, suspect it may be too harsh.

      He had no involvement in the hiring and training and evaluation and business plan processes at PFD that were direct contributing factors, imo, to what occurred. Nor, directly, did his current employer.

      This to me is similar to a business executive joining a construction firm that’s embroiled in litigation but that didn’t necessarily directly cause the construction accident that led to the litigation.

      Reply

      • Well actually…my “is this too harsh” comment was just another manifestation of my quirky, flippant, immature attempt at humor mixed with my persistently sarcastic personality that is without a doubt a sign of deep seated anger that a psychiatrist could have a field day with if they were so inclined.

        And I suspect your opinion is one that is popular within the wildland firefighting community as a whole because Jeff Whitney is a without a doubt a highly respected, popular and even legendary figure from that community.

        But I don’t share in that opinion. In fact, I think Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney should resign in protest rather than oversee the implementation of such a shameful disgrace masquerading as a settlement agreement on behalf of a shameful disgrace of a governor who is masquerading as a leader.

        A governor who shamelessly panders to the lowest common denominator in the Republican Party in the Great State of Arizona by being a climate change denier. A wildland firefighter who supports climate change deniers. Really?

        And I do understand all too well how the actual implementation of retirement plans can change a person. For example, a divorce can reduce assets by half or more (I don’t have the slightest idea what Mr. Whitney’s marital status is), which is just one more reason I work so hard at keeping my dear wife happy as often as my habitually difficult personality will allow.

        In addition, I do know for a fact one thing that has been hard on Mr. Whitney since he retired as one of the greatest fire gods who ever laced up a pair of White’s, he has had a hard time adjusting to becoming invisible. Which is one thing that happens to every retired person just as soon as they truthfully answer the inevitable question, “What do you do?”

        And I understand this phenomenon even though I wasn’t even close to being one of the greatest fire gods who ever laced up a pair of White’s when I retired. I always answer that question with a straight face by saying I am writing a book and running travel and off road web sites even though everything I have done in retirement to date has been a loss leader without any subsequent pay off. But at least I don’t say…”nothing, I don’t do a damn thing.”

        And even though I understand these things, I would still resign rather than sign off on that insult to the still grieving families. And I specifically speaking about the families who didn’t sue. Offer them nothing except your deepest condolences, but don’t offer them $10,000 in lieu of the $25,000 awarded to them by ADOSH. And like I said before, if someone offered me an insult to compensate me for the horrible death at their hands of one of my children, it would get really ugly in the room, really fast. Not physical of course…just really ugly.

        Please let me make one thing perfectly clear to everyone who has not been keeping up with current events. And I want to preface my pronouncement with this statement. There is no doubt in my mind that I know every causal factor on the Yarnell Hill Fire that resulted in the deaths of 19 GMIHC hotshots, in addition, I also understand the complicated nuances of all of the contributing factors in their deaths as well.

        The Arizona Division of Forestry is responsible for the deaths of 19 wildland firefighters on the Yarnell Hill Fire as a direct result of their gross negligence and incompetent management of said wildfire…period, end of story.

        Someone asked me in an email if I was going to name the last chapter of my book (Betrayed By Our Fire Gods) “Thirty Pieces of Silver.” And if Mr. Whitney signs off on that agreement as we currently understand it exists, the answer to that question is a resounding…hell yes! That name fits in with the whole betrayed theme…wouldn’t you agree?

        Reply

  8. This has been stuck in moderation for some time, so I am reposting it to see what happens..

    This comment fits into at least 2 categories. Clutter…and you can’t make this stuff up.

    When I first heard the name of the new Arizona Stage Forester…Jeff Whitney, I said to myself…I think I know that name from the old days. I am pretty sure there were two Whitney brothers who worked at the Blue Ridge Ranger District for the US Forest Service in the generation right before mine.

    They were both very tall and lanky with big mustaches and kind of looked like twins. They were both on the Blue Ridge Hotshots and fit into the category of college students studying to become professional foresters at NAU rather than terminal blue collar workers.

    By the time I was on the Happy Jack Hotshots next door to Blue Ridge, they had moved on to run engine crews as foremen. I know I kept hearing the name Whitney over the years in fire management, so one or both of them went on to become high ranking fire managers and an , as professional foresters as they moved up through the ranks. I am sure this is the same guy (Jeff Whitney) and he would have been retired from the USFS or whichever federal agency he worked for after them by now and be in a good position to be appointed as a political hack, State Foresters are always political hacks and change whenever there is a new governor, or there is a big screw up as the fall guy for the governor.

    So a former Blue Ridge Hotshot being in charge of screwing the families over would be classic karma…right?

    Reply

    • Yep. Whitney has “entered from stage left” and is now part of this shakespearean level tragedy. He’s already earned billing as the one who helped get some of the litigation to just “go away”… but will he go on to be the one, in the third act, doesn’t live up to ANY of the promises he made.

      We shall see.

      Attorney Patrick McGrocer really has made it sound like all these “promises” Whitney made which then caused the families to “cave” during the settlement negotiations were PERSONAL promises on Whitney’s part.

      So if Whitney just quits or gets thrown under his own personal bus… what happens to all these crucial “promises”?

      Reply

      • There is STILL, apparently, no PUBLIC copy of the actual settlement agreement between Arizona Forestry and the families of the dead Hotshots… and STILL no explanation as to why that wasn’t made available with the other ‘settlement’ documents… or when a copy of this other crucial document will be made available.

        So we still don’t know how much/many of these “promises” that both attorney Patrick McGroder and Jeff Whitney went on and on about in the settlement press conference.are actually CODIFIED in the legally binding ‘settlement document’ itself… or whether they just remain mostly VERBAL promises on the part of Jeff Whitney.

        Reply

  9. FYI – Even if the lawsuit was still ongoing, and proceeded all the way into a courtroom, the Prescott FD — with all their misdeeds/misrepresentations that are at the very core of why 19 people wound up dead with being immune in the end to any accountability as the PFD was excluded from litigation. No trial, no settlements, no bothering with empty assurances of reforms. They got to skate away clean.

    Reply

    • They could (all) still be called as witnesses in any court case… and that might contribute to solving some/all of the ongoing questions/mysteries.

      There are obviouy a lot of people involved with this incident who are never going to ‘do the right thing’ until they are FORCED to do so. I hope at least one court proceeding stays active so that can happen.

      Reply

  10. In case someone thinks I bailed here, I did tomorrow till Monday Ill be on vacation to Northern Idaho
    Camping and relaxing so will be back to catch up Monday evening.

    Reply

    • Enjoy the escape Bob, just make sure your campfire is out… Here in BC we have a province wide campfire ban

      Reply

      • Preaching to the quire HAHAHA–
        Actually will be in Post Falls on Saturday to watch our son race in the K&N NASCAR West at Stateline. 1/4 mile track. Then over to Mazola Smoke jumper base and down thru Salmon 2 days going 2 days coming home with the Camp Trailer.

        Reply

  11. This comment fits into 2 categories. Clutter…and you can’t make this stuff up.

    When I first heard the name of the new Arizona Stage Forester…Jeff Whitney, I said to myself…I think I know that name from the old days. I am pretty sure there were two Whitney brothers who worked at the Blue Ridge Ranger District for the US Forest Service in the generation right before mine.

    They were both very tall with big mustaches and kind of looked like twins. They were both on the Blue Ridge Hotshots and fit into the category of college students studying to become professional foresters at NAU rather than terminal blue collar workers.

    By the time I was on the Happy Jack Hotshots next door to Blue Ridge, they had moved on to run engine crews as foremen. I know I kept hearing the name Whitney over the years in fire management, so one or both of them went on to become high ranking fire managers as professional foresters as they moved up through the ranks. If it is the same guy, he would have been retired from the USFS or whichever federal agency he worked for after them by now and be in a good position to be appointed as a political hack, State Forester are always political hacks and change whenever there is a new governor, or there is a big screw up as the fall guy for the governor.

    So a former Blue Ridge Hotshot being in charge of screwing the families over would be classic karma…right?

    Reply

  12. Reply to Bob Powers post on July 7, 2015 at 3:10 pm

    >> Bob Powers wrote…
    >>
    >> WTKTT–Thanks for jumping in over on Wild Fire Today.
    >> They have added even more statements that are not found any where and
    >> keep changing the story… and who said what and what was said and who herd it.
    >> anyway take a look if you feel up to the Challenge.

    I posted a ‘Reply’ to user ‘FFSafety’ pointing out how wrong he was about where the fire actually was circa 4:30 PM… and that even the SAIT’s own firelines prove he is wildly mistaken.

    But some weirdness going on over there at Gabbert’s Blog.

    I posted the response at 9:30 PM. It stayed in ‘moderation’ for a few hours and then was suddenly ( and fully ) DELETED at exactly 11:15 PM. I figured I had once again hit that mysterious ‘Gabbert wall’ whereby it’s almost impossible to figure out what sort of comments he will ( or won’t ) allow.

    An hour or so went by… and a few more posts from other people appeared on other threads.

    Then my original post that had ‘vanished’ at 11:15 suddenly ‘reappeared’ and it was now no longer ‘in moderation’.

    So go figure.

    I’m think my ‘batting average’ over there for posts even making it out of ‘moderation’ is less than 50 percent at this point… and it’s always hard to tell what ‘criteria’ he uses for ‘valid comments’.

    Anyway… just in case he changes his minds and trashes my entire comment again… here is what was posted over there as a reply to ‘FFSafety’…

    ( My original Reply to ‘FFSavety posted as the next Reply here… )

    Reply

    • Reply to FFSafety post on July 7, 2015 at 12:35 pm

      >> FFSafety said…
      >>
      >> Bob they announced that they were going “SOUTH” – on the trail
      >> that was “MID-SLOPE.” That’s the trail that we can see in the pictures.
      >> And Musser and Cordes and other ppl testified that they heard GM
      >> say they were moving on their predetermined escape route down to
      >> their bomb-proof safety zone from that “morning.”
      >> Lord-a-lord, Bob – hows much more specific did you want them to be?

      In his one-and-only ADOSH interview, OPS2 Paul Musser DOES mention hearing something along those lines… but unlike what your statement above suggests… Musser specifically told ADOSH he heard absolutely NO mention of any ‘escape route’ and/or ‘safety zone’. He was sure about that.

      Musser told ADOSH that when HE spoke directly with Marsh ( at exactly 3:42 PM ) and Musser was checking on Granite Mountain’s ‘availability’ for additional assignments closer to Yarnell itself… the only response he got was that GM was still “committed to the ridge” and Musser told ADOSH that Marsh never talked of an escape route or safety zones during THAT conversation, either.

      Musser also told ADOSH that whatever might have been said over the radio ( in some other conversation he was not a part of ) about a ‘predetermined route’… he ( Musser ) had no frickin’ idea WHAT that meant.

      No one was talking to HIM about it… and Musser told ADOSH that he could only assume whoever they WERE mentioning that to over the radio understood what they meant… and Musser then never lifted a finger to find OUT what it meant.

      Paul Musser didn’t even have any idea who the ‘someone’ is that Marsh was talking to and also made no attempt to find that out, either.

      From OPS2 Paul Musser’s ADOSH interview…
      Starting with line 2542 of the interview…
      ———————————————————————
      Q = Brett Steurer, ADOSH investigator
      Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
      A = OPS2 Paul Musser
      ———————————————————————-
      Q2: Oh. Uh, anything else you can think of that we probably need to know at this point and time? Uh…
      A: Uh, at one point I did hear Granite Mountain say they were using their predetermined route towards the structures.
      Q2: Oh, you did hear that?
      A: I did – I overheard that. Uh, I don’t know whether that was Granite talking to Eric or who they were – I did – I overheard that part of a conversation.
      Q2: Between Granite and somebody?
      A: Yes.
      Q2: Uh, but you don’t know who they were actually talking or…
      A: No. I do not… But there was no urgency, no – never talked of an escape route or safety zones or anything like that. It was just – or…
      Q2: And how did they say it? They…
      A: I think they said we’re going down our predetermined route towards the structures, I think is what was said.
      Q: Is that predetermined route something they might have marked with flags or…
      A: Uh, obviously whoever – who they were talking to knew what that meant.
      ———————————————————————

      So I believe your question was…

      “How much more specific did you want them to be?”

      How about specific enough that OPS2 Paul Musser ( and others ) wouldn’t have later testified to ADOSH that he/they had no frickin’ idea what Marsh was talking about?

      So regardless of what was SAID…
      OPS2 Musser had no idea what Marsh really MEANT… and he also never bothered to find out.

      Likewise…

      * OPS1 Todd Abel, on the north side, had no idea what Marsh really meant.
      * None of the Blue Ridge Hotshots had any idea what Marsh really meant.
      * TLFD(t) Trainee Tyson Esquibel had no idea what Marsh really meant.

      The evidence record suggests that the ONLY person in Yarnell who DID have ANY idea what all that “predetermined this morning” stuff meant was the man who “predetermined” it… and made that ‘Safety Zone’ assignment to Marsh that morning.

      That was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

      Cordes is still the only person on the Yarnell IMT who admits to never having any doubts where Granite Mountain was going. Cordes might have had no idea they would be so foolish as to NOT stay on that two-track and attempt a shorcut through a blind box canyon filled with explosive fuel… but Cordes was SURE they were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      Unfortunately… Cordes’ own Situational Awareness (SA) was so bad that afternoon that even he had no idea what the fire was ACTUALLY doing out in that ‘middle bowl’ and so he was under the FALSE impression they had ‘plenty of time’ and there was no need for any kind of ‘intervention’ on his part.

      >> FFSafety also said…
      >>
      >> In hindsight it would have been great if someone had stopped
      >> them and asked for more detail.

      Wow. You are talking as if you consider it to be OPTIONAL that a Incident Management Team know EXACTLY where their resources are and EXACTLY where they are going ( if they are still moving and not safe yet ) when a dangerous fire is exploding like a bomb.

      There is no “would have been great” about it.

      As a ‘Division Supervisor’ moving resources from one Division to another… Marsh was REQUIRED by the rules of his profession to make it CLEAR to ‘Operations’ what was happening… and to be sure they APPROVED of his decision(s).

      Marsh was a “Division Supervisor” on that fire and he was essentially moving ALL of the resources assigned to his Division OUT of their assigned Division ‘A” and into ANOTHER Division on the fire ( Division Z ).

      The official NWCG rules for Division Supervisors REQUIRED that he make this clear to his “Operations Section Chief” and that there be no ‘mysteries’ involved.

      NWCG Task Book for the Position of: Division Supervisor
      Page 13…
      Item 29: Notify Operations Section Chief when resources are
      moved or shared between divisions/groups.

      There is no “would be great if you would do that” in the DIVS TASKBOOK.
      It’s a MUST DO.

      Marsh did NOT communicate the ‘move’ in any kind of clear, effective manner to everyone who SHOULD have known, as also required by just the ‘C’ in LCES.

      >> FFSafety also said…
      >>
      >> who was gonna ask because Cordes knew where they were headed
      >> and he thought they had plenty of time so he and Musser were not
      >> going to second guess.

      You are right… but with a ‘caveat’.

      SPGS1 Gary Cordes seemed to be the ONLY one who understood ANY of Marsh’s references to “predetermined” routes or ‘safety zones’… because Cordes is the one who GAVE the BSR that “predetermined’ label ( to Marsh ) that morning.

      But as for OPS2 Paul Musser…. see above.

      OPS2 Paul Musser told the ADOSH investigators that even after hearing something about ‘predetermined route’… Musser had no frickin’ idea what that meant… and ( apparently ) never even lifted a finger to FIND OUT what that meant.

      >> FFSafety also said…
      >>
      >> When things are heating up on a fire, commo can slip without us even
      >> noticing until commo is bad. Have ya ever been sending on 1 tac and
      >> receiving on another? You know – a conversation where you are sending
      >> on Tac 1 and they are hitting you back on Tac 3 and neither of you are
      >> realizing it because you are hearing each other and not looking down.
      >> You have conversation but if either of you had thought to look you would
      >> have realized you werent really having good commo. Ya. It happens.

      The problem you are now describing sounds like if something isn’t done to improve THAT situation… someone is GOING to get KILLED… but what you are describing is NOT what was happening in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30, 2013.

      Yes… there were some ‘bad spots’ and people actually had some minor ‘tone guard’ and physical radio problems such as Cordes’ BK portable’s transmit switch taking a dump and he had to throw on the seat and just use his Motorolas ( which did NOT have the Incident’s A2G channel programmed in and he never stopped for a moment to fix THAT problem ).

      But all in all… TWO different investigations actually determined that there were not enough technical issues with radios or tones or lack of repeaters for that to have been an ACTUAL (direct) causal factor in the deaths of 19 Arizona Forestry employees.

      The ‘bad como’ that day was not because of the radios themselves.

      It was because of people either choosing ( or never having been taught how ) to use them to actually COMMUNICATE in an effective, safety-minded way.

      Once again… even Mike Dudley, the Co-leader of the SAIT itself, told a roomful of firefighters in a public speech in Utah on June 20, 2014…

      “A lot of people were talking… very few people were communicating.
      It was almost as if Granite Mountain was being deliberately vague.”

      >> FFSafety also said…
      >>
      >> You don’t realize that there are communications problems until there
      >> are communications problems!!! Everyone sees it in hindsight but the
      >> people in the thick of it don’t get the benefit of our hindsight.

      Again… you are describing a problem that I’m sure exists… and if it isn’t addressed someone else is GOING to get KILLED for this reason alone…

      …but as far as the Yarnell Incident goes… investigations have proven that Granite Mountain did not LACK the ABILITY to communicate. They simply were not communicating “Clearly and Effectively”, as LCES requires.

      We can hear for ourselves in the Caldwell video that Eric Marsh had NO PROBLEMS communicating directly with OPS1 Todd Abel on the north end of the fire. No ‘relay’ needed.

      OPS2 Paul Musser testifies to having been able to communicate directly with DIVSA Eric Marsh, when he wanted to. No ‘relay’ needed.

      Other testimony establishes that OTHERS were hearing Marsh and Steed communicate directly over both TAC and A2G channels without any problems. No ‘relay’ needed.

      The ‘como’ problem that day was that only ONE person seemed to fully UNDERSTAND what they were SAYING… and that was SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

      Even when OPS2 Paul Musser testified to ADOSH that he HEARD Marsh communicating directly with ‘someone else’ and mentioning something about a “predetermined route”… OPS2 Paul Musser never lifted a finger to even find out what that really meant.

      The radios themselves are not to blame for the lack of communication on this particular Incident. No way.

      >> FFSafety also said…
      >>
      >> Your timeline is off too Bob. At 4:30 pm the fire was at least
      >> a good 3/4 of a mile from the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      That is totally false.

      The SAIT’s own published fireline progression charts AND other existing photographic and video evidence proves otherwise.

      ** THE SAIT FIRELINE PROGRESSION CHARTS ( IN 3 DIMENSIONS )

      The following YouTube video shows all of the Special Accident Investigation Team ( SAIT ) official fire progression estimates transposed onto Google Earth in 3 dimensions.

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boj4zCdOX5I

      NOTE: The ADOSH investigators agreed that these SAIT fireline progressions could be considered accurate and so they never did their own charts. They simply relied on these SAIT charts for their own investigation.

      At +0:52 into the video… the SAIT’s own 4:30 PM estimated fireline appears transposed onto the ground in 3 dimensions.

      It isn’t even as ‘far along’ as other photographic evidence indicates it REALLY was by 4:30 PM… but it’s pretty close… and even this SAIT 4:30 PM fireline estimate has the ‘flaming front’ of the now south-headed fireline only 1,148 feet due north of the perimeter of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      1,148 feet equals just 338 yards and only .22 mile away ( LESS than 1/4 mile ).

      The same SAIT 4:30 PM fireline shows the leading edge also only 971 feet away from the ‘mouth’ of the box canyon. That’s just 324 yards and under 2 tenths of a mile ( 0.18 mile ).

      The same SAIT 4:30 PM fireline shows the leading edge also only 1,877 feet away from what would become the actual ‘deployment site’ there on the floor of the box canyon. That’s 626 yards and just over 1/3 of a mile ( 0.36 mile ).

      Reply

      • Yes Bill tends to make his own rules he cut me entirely off for several months until thru private E-Mail I convinced him my statement was a JOKE Referencing and old rivalry between our crews.
        Also I do not think he is use to long replies that you post or the reference of other links that may be causing you problem.

        You do a excellent job of putting the facts out there.

        Reply

        • Actually… in all fairness… Bill Gabbert obviously likes to run a ‘tight ship’ over there at “Wildfire Today” and he expects the comments being made on his constant Blog titles to be about what HE wrote at the top.

          In a way… that thread about the Kyle Dickman FOX news interview got what is commonly referred to in the blogosphere. as “hijacked”.

          That’s when the commenters start going in a direction other than what the article they are commenting on was really about.

          That is kinda/sorta what happened here… and I can see Gabbert getting ‘pissed’ about it and trying to knock out comments that HE didn’t feel were directly related to what HE wrote at the top.

          IMHO… the discussion really is/was related to his article, since Gabbert himself described what Dickman said on-camera as “throwing Eric Marsh under the bus”.

          That’s makes an open review of the evidence about what Eric Marsh may ( or may not ) have done ( and who else knew what when ) sort of “fair game” for commenting on this particular blog post… but maybe Gabbert just didn’t see it that way and thought the thread was being “hijacked”.

          Whatever.

          What Bill Gabbert himself didn’t actually ‘catch’ in the Kyle Dickman on-camera interview was that when Kyle Dickman was asked the direct question… “Is there someone to blame here”?… Dickman first started to say “Incident Commander” or “Incident Management”… but then he caught himself and said “If you need someone to blame… blame Marsh”.

          You have to actually give the FOX anchor some credit here.
          She was pretty ‘savvy’ while she was questioning Dickman and she was asking some pretty damn good questions that still NEED to be asked.
          She was coming from the place of being a fellow ‘journalist’ and
          she was EXPECTING a guy ( Dickman ) who had already published
          a book that his own publishers have been calling “the definitive account
          of the Yarnell Hill Fire” to KNOW the answers to the questions she
          was asking him.

          He ( Dickman ) didn’t.

          He just ‘danced around’ her questions with vague responses that anyone could give even without reading any books… and he proved on-camera that he never really lifted a finger to find out for himself the answers to some of the ongoing ‘mysteries’ of what happened that entire weekend in Yarnell.

          Dickman just did a “feature piece”… and apparently simply didn’t complain when the publishers started calling it “the definitive story of the Yarnell Fire”.

          Here is actually exactly what Kyle Dickman said on-camera in that FOX news interview that Bill Gabbert decided to post about on his ‘Wildfire Today’ Blogsite…

          ———————————————————————
          ( Reporter ): Now.. there have been a series of different reports over the last two years about WHO made the call to move these firefighters and WHO is to blame… because, of course, in stories like this, everyone’s looking for that. An ANSWER to ‘explain the unexplainable’, virtually, but Kyle… what did YOU learn in reporting about this story?

          IS there someone to blame here?

          ( Kyle Dickman ): I mean I think you can blame… we… we can certainly lay blame on the Incident… uhm… on the Superintendent of the Hotshot Crew. His name was Eric Marsh. It was, ultimately, his decision to move the men… uhm… ya know… the truth is that fire was incredibly explosive. Nature was doing things to that… that blaze that… that were pretty exceptional and… uhm… ya know… I think that… that really these men died… uh… uh… because of the way fires are burning today… and so… uhm… but I guess if we… if we have to lay blame… maybe we blame Eric Marsh?
          ————————————————————————-

          NOTICE this obvious “stumble and backtrack” on Dickman’s part…

          “…we can certainly lay blame on the Incident… uhm… on the Superintendent of the Hotshot Crew”.

          Dickman’s FIRST instinct was to (apparently) say something like…

          “we can certainly lay blame on the Incident Commander”.
          OR
          “we can certainly lay blame on the Incident Management”.
          OR
          “we can certainly lay blame on the Incident Management Team”.
          etc., etc….

          but he ‘caught’ himself, backtracked real quick, and then said…

          “we can certainly lay blame on the Superintendent of the Hotshot Crew”.

          Interesting ‘brain fart’ there, Kyle.

          Bill Gabbert did not catch this in HIS Blog post about the interview.

          Reply

          • As you showed and have over and over the actual fire burn towards BSR
            in a 25 Min. time frame to 1630 is the real kicker here.
            if They had had a good lookout or even Como with some one who could see the progression of the Fire they could have moved back up or never gone Down the Canyon. Marsh had to have seen the fire progression before he got back to the crew in time to deploy.
            That’s my take they made a bet they could beet the fire and lost. sooner or later the Family and GM friends are going to have to realize that simple fact.
            They– Marsh and Steed had the responsibility and they made the call, no matter what else was going on with new plans or structures burning.

            Reply

    • I posted the response at 9:30 PM. It stayed in ‘moderation’ for a few hours and then was suddenly ( and fully ) DELETED at exactly 11:15 PM. I figured I had once again hit that mysterious ‘Gabbert wall’ whereby it’s almost impossible to figure out what sort of comments he will ( or won’t ) allow.

      reply:
      I have to point out Bill’s page just like John’s page does that at times…but I cannot see him deleting comments. I just cannot see John or him doing that…If anyone posts a post like you do WWTKTT with all the sources like you do…don’t think you would be deleted on purpose just retry or refresh the page or erase cookies….I want to skim read fast because I have to get some sleep. Sonny comes to get me at 3am-

      Reply

  13. WTKTT–Thanks for jumping in over on Wild Fire Today.
    They have added even more statements that are not found any where and keep changing the story.
    And who said what and what was said and who herd it. anyway take a look if you feel up to the Challenge.

    Reply

    • Will do. We are seeing the ‘ongoing tragedy’ over there at Wildfire today.

      And that is the fact that here it is… TWO YEARS later… and people are still THAT confused about the circumstances under which 19 men were burned to death while working for Arizona Forestry.

      And that there are people who were direct eyewitnesses and participants who are still REFUSING to say what they know and content to leave even their own FF ‘brothers’ grasping at straws.

      A few are the comments over there are perfect representations of that old Mark Twain quote…

      “It ain’t what they don’t know that bothers me.
      It’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so.”

      Isn’t it interesting, however, to discover that even amongst the “brotherhood”… everyone KNOWS that information has been ( and is till being ) withheld.

      Whoever still thinks otherwise just hasn’t been paying attention.

      Reply

      • Truly information is being with held but add to that distortion of facts. A lush forest has been painted over the barren sands of lies. Awards and trophies and bravos to people that preformed the worst firefighting job in recent history if not ever considering the whole job from beginning to end. Shame, shame to those keeping the secret of their woeful job that killed nineteen young men. Yea-lay all the blame to the dead men while they cry out from their graves that the whole truth be known as to their demise. For sure ignorance and carelessness was on their part, but why did they take such risks. Who trained these men that they would do that and who was foolish enough even to ask them to come down to help protect structures? Do you hand out awards to anyone for their great job as firefighter boss on this Yarnell blunder? Yes and the public seems to have gone along — their eyes shaded from the real truth.

        But I am not an authority or a firefighter. Yet I clearly see how badly this fire was handled. Hell is the abyss one enters by going down in a thicket of brush that only a bear can wallow through while weather conditions are bound to change the direction of a fire in a heart beat and with raging winds to drive it up a slope at velocities that no man can out run in a thicket of brush.

        That day we were on the mountain and when I topped out the wind had already shifted to the south, though gently–but by the time we had dropped off on the Congress side it was already picking up. The argument Joy and I had is a testimony to how foolish it would have been for us to challenge nature. The fact that learned firemen would be convinced to go down in that canyon reminds me of how at that very point from the two track Joy would have met her demise had she dropped off at that point. Even after I tracked up that hill to the top I did not really want to go back to see if she had gone down–fortunately she had not and this time I did a Dr. Putnam on how he saved the lives of green horn fire fighters. I cursed and got stern–something with a hard head like Joy that might have driven her down — but it did not. So why would they go down into that brush and it was thick. Joy’s photos at the very place they died that early morning do not lie as to the conditions those men had encountered. Cordes knows and so does the majority of the men that fought that fire that day. All the honchos know and kid Donut is happy to report on one channel that the truth would go with him to his grave while the unfortunates cry from their grave that all the truth be known to the world. Will it win out–If you are religious you would think the devil has the upper hand here when you see the sole survivor of that crew of 20 withholding information yet saying he is a convert and I imagine one of the studies under Mr. Willis–the other survivor boss of that crew and total incident. Is that Christianity?-A slap at the dead and a dishonor to truth. Shame on those that held back the truth and worked to cover up what really happened. Shame on anyone that worked this fire and took awards. Does your heart feel guilt–it should.

        I told Joy we need to start looking at the dead beyond the 19. How come we have 50 and now more dead in the Yarnell area. This is not a coincidence to the fire–It is indeed related and I believe the fire is a causal factor in these obituaries that keep popping up. This is where we need to a study. Seems like that too many are thinking this retardant is a benign agent that has nothing to do with killing old people. There have been no long time health studies, although when it is dumped into a river thousands of fish die–a fact you can read about on line. Yet that NH3 gas that is given off is recognized as a lung tissue killer. Well it works out that we got 300 thousand gallons of that delightful lung killer dumped right next to our dwellings in Yarnell. Yes and now many of the locals if they are aged and have not expired since the fire are in trouble with their lungs. Heart conditions are connected to the lungs and those hidden chemicals must have added to the NH3 effects. If Zack Ashoor had not died since the fire–a young 29–and I hiked him with his asthma problem–he would be working on this problem with me. Joy is helping get a full list of the deceased since the fire–the 50 plus beyond the 19. Their demise was slow and painful if it is like my own. Lungs no longer work as well and it becomes painful to hike any distance and now the heart and brain no longer get the proper oxygen and those organs suffer as do all others in the body that no longer has sufficient oxygen. So the NH3 from the retardant either hangs you to an oxygen bottle or kills you slowly–yet not so slowly considering that more than 50 elderly have succumbed since the fire. Zack by the way was on the state respiratory board in Arizona–he was working on a very light respirator for fire fighters–maybe I could have directed to him on a study to this retardant and its effects on fire fighters.

        Reply

        • Truly information is being with held but add to that distortion of facts. A lush forest has been painted over the barren sands of lies. I AGREE WITH YOU SONNY..THEY SHOULD OF BETTER INVESTIGATED THE AREA BEFORE THE ASH WAS WASHED AWAY AND THE GROWTH IS LIKE IT IS. Awards and trophies and bravos to people that preformed the worst firefighting job in recent history if not ever considering the whole job from beginning to end. I JUST DID NOT LIKE ACCOLADES BEING ACCEPTED OR BONUS BEING MADE OR VACATIONS GIVEN OR ANY LUXURY OR PRAISE ESPECIALLY WHEN WE SPOKE TO BRYAN SMITH AND GARY IS IN THE MEDIA FOR SAVING LIVES AND BRYAN WAS LIKE NO THE GUY THAT SAVED ME WAS AGE 44-54…GARY, SORRY YOU DO NOT LOOK LIKE HOW BRYAN DESCRIBED HIS CAPTAIN WHO SAVED HIM. ALSO I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT PAUL MORIN. Shame, shame to those keeping the secret of their woeful job that killed nineteen young men. I GUESS WE HEAR SO MANY AGENDAS AND ANGLES AND PERCEPTIONS SINCE THE FIRE ON THE FIRE —SO UNTIL ALL THE FACTS ARE OUT I THINK THIS IS A HARSH STATEMENT IN MY HUMBLE OPINIONYea-lay all the blame to the dead men I HAVE SEEN THAT AND THAT IS UNFAIR…while they cry out from their graves that the whole truth be known as to their demise. I HOPE ONE DAY SONNY IT HAPPENS THAT WAYFor sure ignorance and carelessness was on their part, but why did they take such risks.GOOD TOPIC. Who trained these men GOOD TOPIC. IS ALL THE EVALUATIONS OF EACH GMHS PUBLIC FOIA…CAN A REGULAR FOLK ASK FOR IT? that they would do that and who was foolish enough even to ask them to come down to help protect structures? AGAIN JUST PIECES MISSING THERE SONNY…Do you hand out awards to anyone for their great job as firefighter boss on this Yarnell blunder? HMMM…ROUGH TOPIC FOR ME— I SAY NO. Yes and the public seems to have gone along — their eyes shaded from the real truth.TRUE—WHERE WAS I…OH YES, SELLING AT MAYOR ED’S TRADING POST AND THIS COUPLE WHO LIVES IN GLEN ILAH- GAIL AND JOHN—NEAR DINO AND VICKI AND JIM NAGEL (THAT IS RIDGEWAY SO YOU KNOW)—THE YARNELL FIRE WAS NOT OF ANY INTEREST TO THE COUPLE TO EVEN TALK ON IT. ALL SHE DID SAY WAS BETWEEN 3–4PM THE HOME BEHIND HER EXPLODED. NO MORE DETAILS. NO INTEREST IN SHARING PHOTOS. “MOVE FORWARD” OUTLOOK. SLOWLY AND I MEAN SLOWLY PEOPLE WHO SAID TWO YEARS AGO THEY WOULD SHARE THEIR PHOTOS FINALLY DID TODAY AND I EMAILED THEM TO WWTKTT, MARTI AND GARY BECAUSE FOR SOME REASON BOB POWERS EMAIL WAS NOT POPPING UP IN SAVED AREA SO THIS ACCOUNT IS FROM ANNA MARIE LECHNER. I AM NOT GOING TO FORWARD THEM TO OTHERS BECAUSE I AM BUSY TRYING TO COME UP WITH ER/AMBULANCE FUNDS BUT IF ONE OF THE FOLKS I SENT IT TO DECIDES TO TALK ON IT HERE THEY ARE FREE TO DO SO WITH NAME AND ALL ATTACHED AND LOCATION. I DO APOLOGIZE TO THE 3 I SENT IT TO BECAUSE I SENT IT AND FORWARDED AS I GOT IT AND SO IT SEEMS LIKE ALOT OF EMAILS. I THOUGHT SOME OF THE FIRE ONES WERE INTERESTING AND THE FIRE TRUCKS AND PLANES AND SUCH…THANK YOU ANNMARIE FOR TAKING THE TIME OUT TO LET US PROPERLY ASSESS THE YHF.

          But I am not an authority or a firefighter.YEP, YOU ARE SONNY… Yet I clearly see how badly this fire was handled. Hell is the abyss one enters by going down in a thicket of brush that only a bear can wallow through while weather conditions are bound to change the direction of a fire in a heart beat and with raging winds to drive it up a slope at velocities that no man can out run in a thicket of brush.

          That day we were on the mountain and when I topped out the wind had already shifted to the south,YOU MENTIONED IT TO ME WHEN IT HAPPENED WITH CONCERN TOO though gently–but by the time we had dropped off on the Congress side it was already picking up. The argument Joy and I had is a testimony to how foolish it would have been for us to challenge nature. THAT IS THE MOUNTAIN MAN KNOWLEDGE IN YOUThe fact that learned firemen would be convinced to go down in that canyon reminds me of how at that very point from the two track Joy would have met her demise had she dropped off at that point. AGAIN —FOR THE RECORD—I WAS NEVER GOING DOWN WHERE THE GMHS WENT BUT AROUND TOWARDS CATTLE POND AREA NEAR HELMS—WHICH FIRE HISTORIAN STEPHEN PYNE AND DR TED PUTNAM STATED IT WAS MORE NARROW AND WAS MORE DANGEROUS THAN THE CANYON. Even after I tracked up that hill to the top I did not really want to go back to see if she had gone down–fortunately she had not and this time I did a Dr. Putnam on how he saved the lives of green horn fire fighters. I cursed and got stern–INDEED HE DID—something with a hard head like Joy that might have driven her down — but it did not. OKAY- NO COMMENTSo why would they go down into that brush and it was thick. I DO NOT KNOW WHY EXCEPT A RADIO MISCOMMUNICATION PERHAPS—Joy’s photos at the very place they died that early morning do not lie as to the conditions those men had encountered.TRUE. MORGAN LOEW USE TO HAVE IT WHEN YOU GOOGLED YARNELL HIKERS BUT THE VIDEO HAS SINCE VANISHED BUT MORGAN WILL LOOK INTO IT HE SAID Mon, Jul 13, 2015 at 11:36 AM (Let me see where the video file is located.
          -Morgan) Cordes knows and so does the majority of the men that fought that fire that day. WE HAVE HEARD THAT FROM ALOT ON THE FIRE YET A MAN WHO LOST HIS HOME IN THE FIRE WAS A FIREFIGHTER FROM PEORIA SO I LOOK FORWARD TO HIS ACCOUNTS BECAUSE HE WROTE TO VICKI:Date: (((Sun, 12 Jul 2015 16:39:43 -0700 I do have pictures and some video, I will definitely get you some soon. Right now I need to get my comp to the Apple store to get a new hard drive so can’t do anything for a few weeks.
          I don’t have much video of the fire, just what I put on YouTube.
          Thanks, Don))) For me, Vicki asked Don for that link to youtube.

          All the honchos know KNOW WHAT? SOMETHING? and kid Donut is happy to report on one channel that the truth would go with him to his grave while the unfortunates cry from their grave that all the truth be known to the world.NOT JUST THE LOVED ONES BECAUSE THE WORLD MOURNED THESE MEN TOO Will it win out–If you are religious you would think the devil has the upper hand here when you see the sole survivor of that crew of 20 withholding information yet saying he is a convert and I imagine one of the studies under Mr. Willis–the other survivor boss of that crew and total incident. Is that Christianity?I DO NOT AGREE HERE. ON BOTH ACCOUNTS. I DO NOT SEE THE TIE TO CHRISTIANITY AND THEIR IN HOUSE MENTALITY RIGHT NOW. I HAVE WITNESSED BEHAVIOR OF OMISSION AS WELL AS COURT SIDE HEARSAY FROM WILLIS SHARING IT AS HE HEARD IT ELSEWHERE TO HIM BUT TO WHAT DEGREE- WHO KNOWS— I LIKE WILLIS AND HIS WIFE—SO IF I CAN PLACE THEM ON A NEUTRAL LIST UNTIL EVIDENCE CAN BE BUILT THAN I HAVE THAT RIGHT. A slap at the dead and a dishonor to truth. Shame on those that held back the truth EXACTLY BUT PLACING NAMES OUT LIKE SUCH WE DO NOT KNOW WHO KNOWS WHAT JUST HEARSAY SONNY—and worked to cover up what really happened. Shame on anyone that worked this fire and took awards. AMEN THERE. Does your heart feel guilt–it should.I AGREE.

          I told Joy we need to start looking at the dead beyond the 19. I ALREADY BEEN DOWN THIS PATH…AFTER MY HEALTH AND HIKES I MAY THINK TO REJOIN DOING THIS AREA BUT IT SEEMS NOONE GIVES A SHIT LOCALLY OR IN THE WORLD BUT ME AND SONNY ON THE TOPIC—How come we have 50 and now more dead in the Yarnell area. GOOD QUESTION AND THAT ALONE IS WORTH AN INVESTIGATION. This is not a coincidence to the fire–It is indeed related and I believe the fire is a causal factor in these obituaries that keep popping up.IT IS SO SAD TO MY COMMUNITY DWINDLING..PEOPLE WHO NOT TOO LONG AGO NEVER HAD A HEALTH CONCERN NOW DO OR HAVE DIED…I JUST WOKE UP TO WORK ON SOME STUFF IN GARAGE BUT THINK I WILL HIT THE HAY AGAIN—SUN ZAPPED ME TODAY. This is where we need to a study. I AGREESeems like that too many are thinking this retardant is a benign agent that has nothing to do with killing old people.WHERE DO YOU GO FOR SUCH A STUDY SONNY? There have been no long time health studies, although when it is dumped into a river thousands of fish die–a fact you can read about on line. Yet that NH3 gas that is given off is recognized as a lung tissue killer. ASK BRENT YADON- HE KNOWS THE INGREDIENTS SONNY-Well it works out that we got 300 thousand gallons of that delightful lung killer dumped right next to our dwellings in Yarnell. Yes and now many of the locals if they are aged and have not expired since the fire are in trouble with their lungs. Heart conditions are connected to the lungs and those hidden chemicals must have added to the NH3 effects. If Zack Ashoor had not died since the fire–a young 29–and I hiked him with his asthma problem–he would be working on this problem with me. Joy is helping get a full list of the deceased since the fire–the 50 plus beyond the 19. NOT YET. I AM JUST TRYING TO FIGURE MY BLOOD LABS AND CATSCAN AND MRI AND XRAYS BEFORE I THINK THERE—IT IS NICE I GOT THEM BUT HOW I GOT THEM…IT WILL COST ME AN ARM AND A LEG—Their demise was slow and painful if it is like my own. Lungs no longer work as well and it becomes painful to hike any distance and now the heart and brain no longer get the proper oxygen and those organs suffer as do all others in the body that no longer has sufficient oxygen. So the NH3 from the retardant either hangs you to an oxygen bottle or kills you slowly–yet not so slowly considering that more than 50 elderly have succumbed since the fire. Zack by the way was on the state respiratory board in Arizona–he was working on a very light respirator for fire fighters–maybe I could have directed to him on a study to this retardant and its effects on fire fighters.HOWEVER HE WAS YOUNG AND PASSED ON. OKAY. SONNY I READ IT AND REPLIED HERE BUT DO KNOW THIS…I WILL NOT REJOIN THIS TOPIC UNTIL I HANDLE WHAT I NEED TO DO—OKAY. AS FOR LAST WEEK AND THAT LOVED ONE OF THE GMHS- I HAVE NO CLUE BECAUSE IT WAS TO BE A FUTURE HIKE BUT I AM NOT SURE THAT WILL PLAY OUT WITH ME OR SONNY BECAUSE OF A DIRECT QUESTION ASKED OF ME THAT I COULD NOT MEET—NOT MY STYLE…I WON’T WRITE IT HERE BUT IT WAS INAPPROPRIATE FOR WHO I AM—I JUST WANT TO KEEP GATHERING THE INFORMATION FOR BETTER CLARITY. GOOD NIGHT.

          Reply

  14. **
    ** FULL TRANSCRIPT OF THE SETTLEMENT PRESS
    ** CONFERENCE THAT TOOK PLACE ON JUNE 29, 2015.

    Here is a FULL transcript of that June 29, 2015 Settlement Press Conference, including the part at the very end when the attorney for the 12 Granite Mountain families, Patrick McGroder, is heard admitting to his opponent, Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, that Brnovich “got the better of him” during the settlement negotiations.

    Just before the video ends… we see McGroder meeting Brnovich in the center of the stage and ( right in front of the still “open” microphone ) having their mano-y-mano “Thank you… NO… thank YOU” moment.

    McGroder then points his finger right at his opponent and says…

    “You GOT me!”

    Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich responds to McGroder with three “HA HA HAs” of laughter, and the video ends.

    This transcript also contains the ACTUAL questions that were being asked by the reporters, and also contains the background conversation between attorney Pat McGroder and Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney where they decide they are just ‘annoyed’ by the questions the reporters are asking and they decide to ‘cut them off’.

    ABC15 carried the Settlement Press Conference LIVE and their own raw video recording of the press conference was posted to their PUBLIC YouTube account later that evening.

    It is 45 minutes and 33 seconds long and it is HERE…

    YouTube title: FNN: Yarnell Hill Fire Settlement Press Conference
    Posted by YouTube User: FOX 10 Phoenix
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7GASJl5T6Q

    I am sure this ‘transcript’ is a little larger than what is allowed in one posting, so the
    transcript itself will now be posted as a series of ‘Replies’ to this message…

    Reply

    • The FULL Transcript of the June 29, 2015 Settlement Press Conference…
      ——————————————————————————-
      +0:00
      NOTE: As the video starts, Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich is standing at the podium and looking at the documents before him. Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney is flipping some pages of the documents and ‘explaining’ something to him.

      ( Jeff Whitney… whispering to Mark Brnovich ): This sentence shoulda been quite before we got started.

      ( Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Okay. Thank you.

      ( Jeff Whitney… whispering to Mark Brnovich ): You’re welcome.

      ( Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Thank you.

      Everyone ready?

      Oh… uh… Senator Pierce… ya wanna come?…

      NOTE: Brnovich gestures to the back of the room in an apparent offer to allow Arizona State Senator Steve Pierce to say something. Pierce says something (inaudible) that makes Brnovich smile, then Brnovich continues with his prepared speech…

      Uh… First and foremost… um… I want to thank the families… um… that are here today. Um… we know that we’re approaching the two year anniversary of this terrible tragedy in Yarnell Fire… and I’m glad to announce as the State Attorney General, working with…uh… folks like the State Forester, working with… uh… plaintiff’s counsel, we have reached a final settlement… uh… regarding… in litigation… regarding litigation involving the Yarnell Fire.

      Um… this settlement will resolve mult… resolve multiple claims for the families of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hots… Hotshot crew that perished in the two thousand and thirteen fire… um… I want you to know as the Attorney General… and I came here… uh… very early… I think probly my first or second week in office… I… I sat down with Mr. McGroder. I also sat down with our lawyers, liability management section, and I wanted them to know two things.

      Um… ONE is… as a State… um… we don’t measure our success in wins and losses. We measure our success in whether justice is done for victims.

      Uh… SECONDLY… we are not State Farm. We are not Allstate. We are the State of Arizona… and that means that we have an obligation… um… when there are times when we can settle and resolve matters and hopefully prevent future tragedies from happening… we must do that.

      And that’s what this settlement does.

      I believe it’s a win-win from… uh… for everyone.

      Um… there’s nothing I can say or do… um… to ( pause ) comfort the hurt that the families must be feeling… um… but at least we’ve been able to come together and hopefully prevent such a tragedy from happening again.

      Um… so… I… I… want to just thank the families once again. Thank you Pat ( McGroder )… uh… thank you to the Forester for everything you’ve done… and… um… ultimately this settlement… um…

      +2:09
      ( NOTE: Someone in the first row asked a question which is barely audible in the video.
      ( Sounds like: “Who had control of the settlement?” )

      Do you want me to answer that? ( Inaudible response ). Okay.

      Ulti… ultimately this settlement… um… doesn’t assign… ya know… blame the state… um… the agencies aren’t… aren’t admitting any sort of guilt or… or negligence because frankly that wasn’t the goal, ulitmately, of all of our parties.

      Um… ya know… we have another motto around here and that’s “don’t fix blame… fix the problem”

      Some folks look for answers… others look for fights… and what we did in this situation is we wanted to look for answers to prevent these kind of tragedies from occurring in the future and to make sure that justice… that victims and their families are served the justice they deserve.

      So thank you very much and now Mike Liburdi from the Governor’s office will say a few words.

      ( Mike Liburdi, Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s general counsel, takes the podium ).

      +2:58
      ( Mike Liburdi ): Thank you Attorney General Brnovich.

      I’m Mike Liburdi. I’m Governor Ducey’s general counsel, and I just wanted to say a few short things because really this day is about the families of the fallen firefighters… um… and to respect their memory. On behalf of Governor Ducey we thank the State Forester and the Industrial Commission for reaching a settlement with the families of our fallen firefighters. We hope that this will bring closure for the families and encourage safer policies for fighting wildfires in the future.

      ( Pat McGroder, attorney for the plaintiffs, now takes the podium. As he does so… he )
      ( passes by Roxanne Warneke holding her baby Billie Grace Warneke, who was born )
      ( after her father William ‘Billy’ Warneke died in Yarnell, and attorney Pat McGroder says )
      ( “Hey Billie” to her as he walks to the podium ).

      +3:42
      ( Pat McGroder ): Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.

      My name is Pat McGroder… together with my partners Shannon Clark and Lincoln Combs… we had the honor of representing twelve of the Granite Mountain Hotshot families.

      We’re here today to talk about what has occurred in the litigation involving the State of Arizona and the State Forester.

      Two years tomorrow… Arizona suffered a national tragedy.

      Tomorrow, the families will grieve publicly… but they’ve been grieving every day for the last two years.

      Their losses… immeasurable. Their pain… their despair… every day of their life over the loss of their loved ones.

      The outpouring of national empathy and support for these families in Arizona was unprecedented… however… the darkness and despair caused by this tragedy is ongoing for these families… nevermore to be forgotten.

      As the facts of the tragedy began to unfold… rumors… innuendos… speculation… seemed to run rampant.

      Various reports were authored. Charges were made. Recriminations received.

      I don’t know that we’re ever going to know every detail of that fateful day, June thirtieth, two thousand thirteen… but to the extent that these plaintiffs, these family members, these loved ones, particularly these 3 women of courage, and commitment and dignity behind me ( he looks over to Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston, and Roxanne Warneke, who are present )… made an effort to try and bring transparency and, more importantly, change… which would ensure that a tragedy like this never happens again… whether it be in Arizona, or anywhere else.

      We were asked, and had the privilege, to represent twelve of the families in wrongful death litigation against the State of Arizona.

      We also had the privilege of representing Mrs. Misner, Warneke and Ashcraft in benefit cases that, fortunately, we were successful in in the city of Prescott.

      As many of you know, the only remedy for wrongful death action are damages.

      Compensatory damages.

      But that’s not what this case was about, and that’s not what this case has EVER been about.

      Our clients wanted transparency and change… to ensure that what happened to their loved ones that day would never happen again.

      Acting selflessly, they wanted to create a legacy for their loved ones, lest they ever be forgotten… and in doing so ensure that change and remedial measures are enacted… as a fitting remembrance and an everlasting imprimatur of these fallen heroes, on wildlife science, wildland fire fighting, and wildland fire fighting operations.

      They had a vision… and that vision was what was in the best interests of the State of Arizona and what was in the best interest of the families.

      That vision was simple.

      How can the State of Arizona and how can these families best by served by continuing litigation… whether it be in the context of the wrongful death action that we filed… or the concomitant litigation involving ADOSH and the State Forester arising out of citations, fines and recriminations… uh… by ADOSH.

      The vision was brought to, and supported by, Governor Ducey.

      The enormity of the commitment of Mike Liburdi, Governor Ducey is appreciated by the family.

      This vision was also brought to Attorney General Brnovich, a man who believes in creativity and innovation and not necessarily business as usual.

      The families thank Governor Ducey.

      They THANK Mark Brnovich… and ALL the Attorney Generals that worked so hard on this case to bring closure.

      +8:37
      Chief of Staff Bailey, Mark Heathcote, Terri Harrison, Joy Hernbrode, David Selden, ALL the lawyers that were involved on the State of Arizona side to try and bring a thoughtful, analytical, non-incriminatory result to this litigation.

      Lest I forget… this resolution was THREE parties.

      It was us, the State of Arizona, and “ADOSH and the State of Arizona”.

      After three grueling days of mediation we finally were able to effectuate a settlement.

      Besides displaying extraordinary leadership in the form of Governor Ducey, and Mark Brnovich and state senator Steve Pierce, and Risk Manager Mr. Di Ciccio… Governor Ducey blessed us with something very near and dear, and that is a new State Forester Jeff Whitney.

      A former Hotshot, he came to this problem without an agenda, without any preconceived notions… with a concept of what was best for the State of Arizona and what was best for the families.

      He talked to our families.
      He cried with our families.

      He demonstrated the type of integrity and honesty and character that we demand so much from our state government.

      Forester Whitney told us about changes that he had made as a result of the Yarnell experience.

      He told us about changes that he WOULD consider making in the future.

      And then he sat with us and the families and looked over some 50 or 60 recommendations that were generated by our families.

      Not only these courageous women… but ALL of the families that we represented.

      And we talked about those.
      And we talked about those in a non-incriminating way.

      No fault. No blame. No recrimination.

      Simply what is in the best interest of the Sate of Arizona, what is in the best interest of these families, and what is in the best interest of wildland fire science as we move forward.

      As a result of that collaboration and that cooperation, and all the emotional toll that this case has taken on our clients… we were able to achieve a result.

      ( Continued next Reply… )

      Reply

      • ( Continued… Attorney Patrick McGroder is still speaking… )

        ( Patrick McGroder ): The result is twofold.

        Number one… most importantly… most importantly… we have worked with the State Forester, collaboratively and cooperatively, to try and make the State Forestry Department of Arizona the best in the country.

        Through dialogue, through change, through remedial measures, through innovation and creativity that Jeff Whitney has brought to this office and our families have supplemented with their own suggestions and their own thoughts.

        Ya know, tomorrow… um… the families hearts will again turn to the tragedy two years ago and, of course, there will be a swirl of activity surrounded… uh… that tragedy anniversary.

        At the end of the day tomorrow… these families will have to return to their homes, to their memorabilia, to their pictures, to their memories, to the continuing thoughts of those that they love.

        To say that these clients are courageous would be an understatement.

        They’re not complicated people.
        They’re simple people… that believe in character and honesty.
        They’re hard-working Arizonans.
        They’re families who have suffered the most immeasurable of all tragedies.

        Their hell on earth.

        For the families.. um… I hope this settlement can achieve a modicum of peace.

        I’m not sure that it ever will but I hope it does.

        Knowing most importantly that through this settlement the legacy of their loved ones will never be forgotten… and that was an important common denominator among the thread that led to the vision and led to people like Governor Ducey and Mark Brnovich and Steve Pierce and ALL of the Assistant Attorney generals that came to the table.

        They understood how important a peaceful, collaborative resolution was to this case.

        +14:04
        ( Reporter… interrupts McGroder ): Could you give us the DETAILS of the actual settlement? Just run ’em off?

        ( Patrick McGroder ): Yea. I’m comin’ to that.

        In addition to change and remedial measures that have already been made, are considering to be made, the State Forester has agreed to make changes that we have suggested. He’s agreed to review and analyze other suggestions that could not be implemented immediately because of statutory restraints or budgetary restraints or that required a national mandate so that Arizona, although striving to be the best, is not gonna stand out in the cold when it comes to communication and technol… technology and all the advances that Forester Whitney has looked at, has reviewed and will implement.

        The other piece is the compensation piece.

        The compensation piece is reflective of the motivation of these families.

        The compensation piece calls for fifty thousand dollars per family… which… compared to the enormity of this tragedy sends the strongest possible message that NO way, NO how was money or compensation for these families the motivating force in this litigation… and as you’ll hear shortly… uh… some of the families… uh… are setting up a non-profit foundation to support wildland firefighters and all of those proceeds will be donated to that new foundation.

        And I’m glad you asked that question because I want the record to be VERY clear, and I want this message to ring out… loud and clear whether it be in Prescott, Arizona… whether it be in Timbuktu.

        Lest ANYONE challenge the motivation of these families, their commitment to the greater good or the terms of this settlement… let me simply say that they have gone through hell.

        The integrity, the character, the honesty that these women and ALL the families have displayed in trying to not only learn from this horrible tragedy while trying to put the… their lives back in some semblance of order… with their children… tryin’ to explain to their children what happened to dad… why he’s not here on birthdays and holidays and anniversaries…

        But at the same time acting out of the most pure of motives… and that is to make sure this tragedy never happens again.

        Uh… the lawyers in my office… Shannon Clarke is here… uh.. Tom Kelly our co-counsel… uh… Caroline McGroder, who doesn’t like to use her last name, a lawyer in our office. We’re very proud of having the opportunity to serve these women… and these families… and we’re very proud of our ability to bring together such a public / private partnership with the help of ALL of the public servants that I’ve mentioned… to achieve the greater good.

        ( Billy Warneke, the baby, starts to cry and Deborah Pfingston’s husband takes him and head for the side door. He passes the podium and Pat McGroder announces… )

        +17:45
        ( Pat McGroder ): That’s Billie Warneke, by the way.

        +17:48
        ( Reporter ): Pat?

        ( Pat McGroder ): Yes.

        ( Reporter ): What about the ADOSH… ya know… there are those of us that sat through those hearings. All that. What happens to the whole ADOSH penalty… and recognizing penalties designed to get people to act properly in the future. Where does that fit in?

        ( Pat McGroder ): As I understand it, Howard, the… uh… ADOSH will be issuing a concomitant press release with this press conference. The ‘ADOSH / State Forester’ matter has been resolved on terms that are acceptable to both sides.

        Uh… we were present… but not privy to or party to the negotiations at the mediation so I will… uh… address those… uh… answers to the ADOSH folks… who are not here but, as I understand, going to issue a press release today… uh… setting forth the terms and conditions of that part of the agreement.

        So… uh… let me turn it over to… uh.. Roxanne Warneke.

        You’re gonna hear from Roxy as well as… uh… Deborah Pfingston, the mother of Andrew Ashcraft.

        Roxy?…

        ( Continued next ‘Reply’… )

        Reply

      • ( Continued… Roxanne Warneke comes to the podium… )

        +18:52
        ( Roxanne Warneke ): Good afternoon.

        As you all know we are hear to announce that the Granite Mountain families, the Arizona State Forestry, and ADOSH came to a settlement in principle that originated from the deaths of the nineteen Granite Mountain Hotshots at the Yarnell Hill Fire on June thirtieth, twenty thirteen.

        My husband Billy Warneke was one of the nineteen firefighters that died that day.

        Two weeks after my husband died I was able to visit the deployment site.

        At the site a flagpole was… was… put out with the American flag to mark the site.

        I kept my eye on it as I neared closer to the… to the flagpole, preparing myself emotionally and mentally for the desolation that I would see.

        As I stood at that flagpole I was able to see charred cacti, blackened boulders and blackened dirt… but what took my breath away was the topography.

        I had seen topography maps of the area… and that showed the steep hills… but I was not prepared for it.

        ( She pauses to collect herself )

        What my eyes saw were boulders that were the size of cars… and I had remembered a saying that my… my husband had once told me when we were deer scouting two years before.

        He said to never go into a canyon.

        That inside the canyon would be thick brush and that wind travels through that canyon.

        I know my… my husband’s military and firefighting training.

        Descending into that canyon went against everything that he had ever been taught in advanced land navigation that he had spent over eight years studying and practicing.

        I was enraged.

        After that day I knew that I needed answers.

        It prompted me and my family to file a suit against the State of Arizona to prevent another tragedy like this from happening.

        To prevent Yarnell Hill.
        To prevent the Dude Fire.
        The South Canyon Fire.
        The Thirty Mile Fire.
        The Esperanza Fire,
        and the Kramer Fire…

        …from ever reoccurring again.

        I do not want history to repeat itself as it has done several times before.

        I do not want my husband and his firefighter brothers to have died in vain.

        And I dread the day when my daughter asks me WHY she never had a chance to meet her father… because he died before she was born.

        As this case has reached its resolution in principle… and my PSPRS case settled earlier this year… I can say that I am one step closer to closure… and with the love and support from my family, my friends, my community… I have been able to heal.

        And from the kinship that I have experienced with my Granite Mountain family… I have seen and felt that love is a true gift from god.

        But the greatest outcome of this lawsuit is for the State of Arizona, the leader in wildland firefighting… and… for the wildland firefighters who bravely defend the citizens of increasing threat of wildfire.

        I am proud to announce that the Warneke, Ashcraft and Pfingston families will be donating ALL of the settlement award… and we will be creating a non-profit organization that will be an advocate for wildland firefighter safety.

        The Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute, a 501(C3), that arose from the Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy.

        A foundation that will be formed from the love, the concern and the dedication to wildland firefighters from the wives and the parents of the fallen firefighters of Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew.

        Wildland firefighter safety is of the utmost importance to our organization.

        We will champion firefighter safety through independent investigations, education, and real-life support for firefighter, family and fire community.

        Truth, transparency, accountability, change.

        The future in wildland firefighting is NOW.

        The organization will conduct independent investigations on fatalities, injuries, equipment and technology.

        We will be a wildland firefighter watchdog group where anyone can report to us anonymously to seek positive change in wildland firefighting.

        We will offer scholarships for safety investigations, programs and courses.

        We will be an advocate for an accredited school of wildland fire at universities with a focus in wildland fire.

        We will outreach to local communities to teach how wildland fires affect them and the importance on defensible space.

        We will find new safety techniques and equipment to benefit the safety of wildland firefighters.

        From the Yarnell Hill Fire… a great majority of wildland firefighters, first responders and dispatchers suffered PTSD from the deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

        We have personally felt, and we have SEEN, the effects of PTSD, which we will facilitate PTSD counseling for any of those involved in ANY fire tragedy.

        Lastly… I would like to close to a… with a big ‘Thank You’ to my attorneys Pat McGroder, Shannon Clark and Tom Kelly.

        Thank you for passionately fighting on behalf of our loved ones.

        Thank you to ADOSH, the State Forestry, Attorney General Brnovich and Governor Ducey for understanding and accepting that wildland firefighter safety needs to be the first priority… and for agreeing that wildland firefighting needs to be brought into the twenty-first century.

        Thank you to everyone who supported us… for supporting the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew… but most importantly… thank you for supporting our nation’s wildland firefighters.

        ( Roxanne Warkneke leaves the podium and Deborah Pfingston steps up )…
        ( Continued next Reply )…

        Reply

      • ( Continued… Deborah Pfingston takes the podium following )
        ( Roxanne Warneke… )

        +25:54
        ( Deborah Pfingston, Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, takes the podium.. )

        ( Deborah Pfingston ): I’m old. I need readers.

        I would like to say ‘Thank You’ to Pat McGroder, Tom Kelly, and Shannon Clark.

        It is through their sound management, passion and deep hearts that we are here today. I cannot express my complete gratitude to these men.

        Since the moment I received the call I lost Andrew I have been working with a tear in my heart that will never be healed.

        When our family hiked to the fatality site… I knew we needed to find TRUTH and make changes to ensure that no other mother will hear the words that her son is not coming home.

        It has been TWO LONG YEARS of questions, discovery, frustration and education.

        This family has been humbled by the love and support from around the world, the country and our neighborhood.

        Please know this. This is a beginning… not an end.

        There are several families that have started foundations to continue the motto of the Granite Mountain Hotshots… “Esse Quam Videri”.

        To be, rather than to seem to be.

        There’s the Wade Parker Foundation.
        The William Howard Warneke Memorial Foundation.
        and the Kevin Woyjeck Explorers for Life Association

        …with more on the horizon

        ( SIDENOTE: Pfingston makes no mention of the “Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighting”, which was founded by Amanda Marsh in October of 2014 and has been quite active since then in its fundraising efforts ).

        And as stated… the Ashcrafts, Pfingstons and Warnekes are standing together giving ALL… may I say that again… ALL of the money awarded to us through these lawsuits and giving all of our passion to form the Wildland Firefighting Guardian Institute.

        Our mission statement is as follows…

        Wildland firefighter safety is the utmost importance to our organization. We will champion firefighter safety through independent investigation, education and real-life support for firefighter families and firefighters and the fire community. Truth, transparency, accountability and change.

        The future in wildland fire safety is NOW.

        Truth, transparency, accountability and change has been our mantra since the day it began.

        We STILL have work on the horizon.

        The lessons learned, the TRUTH about the death of our sons, husbands and fathers WILL be coming.

        The fact that we now are working with the State Forester and ADOSH to provide transparency.

        We know we have a Hotshot as a Forester.

        Accountability is for the Granite Mountain Hotshots, our boys lost, and for Granite Mountain Hotshot alumni. They deserve this.

        +28:55
        Now change.

        Change that started in our long ( inaudible ) with discussions with the Granite Mountain Hotshot alumni and family. Changes already started with the Forester who worked with our guys. He KNEW their unquestionable skills. Wildland firefighting will be now more effective.

        The interface between urban and wildland is now nationally recognized.

        Incident commands WILL change.

        The tragedy’s truth and the State of Arizona will be on the cutting edge of updated wildland fighting.

        The Crew.

        Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots were an amajit… amazing group of men.

        They were godly men.

        This crew proved ( themselves ), and they strived to be the best crew in wildland fire.

        They KNEW fire.
        They KNEW family.
        They KNEW what it was like to be the underdog, but rise above it.

        Why did god choose to bring them home?

        I say it’s because they were men after his own heart… and he wanted the world to know how they lived, how they worked, and who they were.

        As Andrew’s wristband states… “To be better”.

        I would like to thank Jerry, my husband, for always standing there beside me.

        My final comments is for my son, Andrew.

        I promise to find the TRUTH… and I will continue that path.
        I promise to live life until I see you again, even though there are days I wake up and I have to fight to breathe.

        ( She takes a moment to collect herself )

        I called you my treasure from the day you were born.
        Now you are hidden from my sight… but never from my heart.
        Thank you.

        ( As she finishes, a reporter asks her what her NAME is )

        ( Deborah Pfingston ): Deborah Pfingston.

        ( Deborah Pfingston leaves the podium and Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney steps up… Continued next ‘Reply’… )

        Reply

      • Continued…

        ( Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney, who was appointed by the new )
        ( Arizona Governor Doug Ducey to replace Scott Hunt, takes the podium… )

        +31:12
        ( Jeff Whitney ): Thank you, Deborah. Thank you very much..

        Ya know the… uhm… the reality that two years ago tomorrow we lost nineteen of twenty fine young men on a Hotshot crew that we called our own here in Arizona isn’t lost on any of us.

        We all understand and respect the reality that there’s nothing that can be to replace or restore them to their families.

        Through this process, I’m confident that we will create a fitting memory to those young men.

        Through the process I’ve renewed old friendships, made new ones, and… uh… I think had an opportunity to… uh… be a part of bringing a greater appreciation and awareness of safety to the fireground for these young men who were… uh… incredible examples of the skill and the dedication and the honor that wildland firefighters provide.

        I think it would be… I would be remiss if I didn’t… uh… thank Senator Pierce publicy and Representative Fann for the work that… uh… you all did and are continuing to do. Thank you so much for your support and the support from the Governor’s office… and the AG… uhm…

        This is… uh… difficult… difficult work… but… uh… well… well meant.

        Thank you all… so much… and Pat… thank you.

        ( Reporter ): Hey Jeff. Jeff… could you talk about some of ( these changes ) that the State Forester will adopt from the changes the family was hoping for when you… you guys ( all got together ) ).

        ( Jeff Whitney ): Thank you. It… ya know… in brief… uh… we… uh… as counselor McGroder pointed out there were probably sixty different requests / expectations voiced by the family. We were able to… uh… to… uh… clear the air on some of the things that… uhm… that we do as a standard in the wildland fire… uh… environment… uhm…. we’ve agreed to… uh… increase our… uh… awareness and training and to take some remedial efforts to… uh… find ways to more fully communicate on a regular ongoing basis… particularly under extremely rapid, changing… uh… accelerating fire behavior to assure that this sort of… uh… tragedy does not occur again… not only in Arizona but across… uh… the wildland community worldwide.

        We’ve also… uh… continue to look at… uh… emerging technologies and we’re going to be… uh… uh… adopting some new… uh… opportunities that are out there in the… uh… in the industry in terms of increased resource tracking, monitoring… and… uh.. we’ve gone back through all of our standard policies and practices and I think as… uh… counselor McGroder mentioned, I… I DO have an ability… uh…, in some respect, to carry our desires… our shared desires… uh… forward nationally into the interagency wildland community… uh… and so those are… are some of the things that I’ll be involved with.

        Thank you.

        ( Whitney thought he was done and tries to leave the podium but reporters
        immediately started shouting more questions… )

        +34:31
        ( Reporter 1): What kind of ‘things’?

        ( Reporter 2 ): What kind of things will it take legislative action for? I mean… that was mentioned earlier. You’ve got a limited budget… uh… we all know what that’s about… so… what do you need to take back to the folks up the block here?

        ( Jeff Whitney ): At this point I don’t see that… uh… ya know… there’s any major changes… uhm… ya know… it’s certainly up to the Governor’s office and the legislature to… uhm… ya know… work through some of those opportunities.

        Uhm… we work in an interagency environment and… uh… we work well with our cooperators. I look forward to having all of the support that I’ve had from the Governor’s office and that my organization’s had from the great state of Arizona for… uh… forty-nine years… fifty years coming next year.

        Uh… one final thing I have to say in closing is that… uh… ya know… ah… I could not NOT come to this challenge… and I could not have done it without legal counsel that we had… uhm… both uh… ya know… in the AG’s office and in DOA risk with… uh… Joy and Brock and David… thank you so much… uhm… and Pat and your team.

        Thank you.

        ( Whitney again thinks he’s done and tries to step away from the podium but the reporters again start shouting questions. As Whitney is ‘backing away’ from the podium the live mike captures the what appears to be the following verbal exchange between Jeff Whitney and attorney Pat McGroder… )

        ( Jeff Whitney, to Pat McGroder ): I think you got behind that.
        ( Pat McGroder, to Jeff Whtiney ): Yea.
        ( Jeff Whitney, to Pat McGroder ): Yea. Thank you.
        ( Pat McGroder, to Jeff Whtiney ): I’ll explain.
        ( Jeff Whitney, to Pat McGroder ): Yea.

        +35:47
        ( Reporter 1 ): Excuse me… could you just explain… you talked about the interagency element… uhm ( he realizes Whitney is talking to McGroder and not listening to his question so he stops asking it ).

        ( Reporter 2 ): Mr. Whitney?

        ( Reporter 1 ): Mr. Whitney?

        ( Whitney has finished his background conversation with McGroder and now acknowledges the reporter… )

        ( Jeff Whitney ): Yes sir.

        ( Whitney will take a DEEP breathe and exhale ( heavy sigh ) while Reporter 1 is asking this next question )…

        +35:56
        ( Reporter 1 ): Could you explain… this is what’s leaving me confused is… the changes that you guys are offering in return… promises made… how can they have an impact when you’re part of an interagency system that, for example, doesn’t BELIEVE in transparency? The Forest Service won’t even let its firefighters discuss this… and they conduct investigations that… their very statement about the investigation is “We don’t wanna find out what went wrong”.

        +36:21
        ( Jeff Whitney ): Uh… I think you may mis-characterize the posture and the findings of the Serious Accident Investigation.

        Um… The Wildland fire community is… uh… a large one.

        Uh… I have an opportunity in my position to… uh… carry the… the banner and the interest that all in the wildland community desire in terms of firefighter and public safety… uh… but I think I can bring… as we develop a “Lessons Learned”… uh… document out of this and prepare and provide a staff ride that we’re gonna be able to provide a learning opportunity… uh… to… to take it to that extent.

        Thank you.

        +37:02

        ( Even more reporters have questions now and they start to shout on top of each other as Whitney, again, tries to END the Q/A by stepping away from the podium ).

        ( Reporter 1 ): Family members… two family members…
        ( Reporter 2 ): Just to review… the ADOSH report…

        ( Even as the reporters are directing more questions to the podium… )
        ( Jeff Whitney and Pat McGroder have this exchange between themselves )
        ( and decide they are DONE taking questions… )

        ( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): I think we’re done.
        ( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whtiney ): Yea.
        ( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ):Yea.
        ( Pat McGroder to Jeff Whitney ): Last one, yea.

        +37:05
        ( Reporter 1 ): This is occurring WITHOUT the sworn testimony of Brendan McDonough… and… are you… are you content with that?

        ( Jeff Whitney to Pat McGroder ): This one’s in your (world). ( It’s about Brendan ).

        +37:13
        ( Pat McGroder ): Uh… I’ll answer that question.

        Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy describe what he saw… what he heard that day.

        Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.

        But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.

        So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.

        This litigation was in State Court. It was not… well… it was originally in State Court… it wound up in Federal Court.

        The Arizona… or strike that… the National Forest Service was not a defendant in the case.

        Uh… had the case gone forward, could we have commanded… uh… depositions?… testimony?…

        Absolutely.

        But… echoing Dennis’ thought…

        The IDEA… the IDEA that the Federal Government is withholding information…

        The IDEA that ANYONE would withhold information from these families…

        Uh… is… it… it really speaks to the lack of understanding and empathy and dignity that they should have for these families.

        So… we would PUBLICLY call for the Blue Ridge Mountain folks and the National Forest Service to let their people talk.

        However… at THIS point in time… we’re dealing with families that have suffered the utmost of tragedies… and we are VERY comfortable in terms of the commitments that the State Forester has made to render information to us within HIS purview.

        Mr. McDonough is… uh.. irrelevant to this press conference today.

        +39:28
        ( Reporter 1 ): Well wait… I wanna make sure…

        ( Moderator, talking on top of Reporter 1 ): Last question.

        ( Reporter 1 ): You’re saying… that they PROMISED… based on this… NOW they will open up… which seems a little different than ‘they’ve opened up and now you feel confident’. Your last statement suggests that ‘now that we’ve got a deal… now they’ll give you the rest of the details’. That seems a little bass-ackwards.

        (Pat McGroder): Well… uh… let me straighten your ass out, Howard. Uh…

        ( Loud laughter erupts in the room )

        ( Reporter 1 ): Okay. Tell me where I’m wrong.

        ( Pat McGroder ): Allright.

        First of all.. there ARE published, public reports… on both sides of the ledger.

        State Forester. ADOSH.

        Those reports were generated by interviews, uh… by expert testimony, etcetera, etcetera… and obviously, depending on which lawyer you talk to, those reports were diametrically opposed.

        The problem we have here in terms of whether or not, Howard, we will ever know exactly what happened… those that can tell us… those who can speak to it… are in heaven… and we don’t have an opportunity to talk to them.

        At the time and place, Mr. McDonough decides to talk… obviously we will take that into consideration.

        But the overriding scientific issues… whether it be weather, whether it be communications or lack thereof… whether it be issues regarding Incident Command and things of that nature…

        All of that, in addition to the two reports that have been issued, have been subject, nationwide, to theorists… to conspiracists… to who killed Martin Luther King… and right now, for the families, in THIS litigation, their concern, and their singular concern, was working with Jeff ( Whitney ), and working with Mark ( Brnovich ), and working with Governor Ducey to get in an optimal position so they can have a modicum of peace and understanding.

        And Jeff ( Whitney ) has committed to do that and we are comfortable with Jeff’s commitment to do that.

        +41:49

        Now… whether or not… uh… the Federal Government decides to HIDE again as they did in another one of my cases, fast and furious, we’ll see.

        Uh… but at the end of the day… uh… I am comfortable that to the extent there are FACTS out there that we may or may not know… or a spin on those facts that we may or may not know… that information will be forthcoming.

        Thank you all for coming.

        ( Moderator ): There’s some additional information in the back… if you don’t have the details with ADOSH… back there with the gentleman… back there.Some of us will be stickin’ around. Thank you all for coming.

        ( The open microphone captures the following verbal exchange between Plaintiff’s attorney Pat McGroder and Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich where McGroder admits to Brnovich… “You got me!” during their mano-y-mano “Thank you… NO.. thank YOU” moment on the stage )…

        +42:24
        ( Pat McGroder ): Mark… thanks man.

        ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Thank you, brother. Thanks for everything.

        ( Pat McGroder ): Thank you.

        ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Thank YOU, seriously.

        ( Patrick McGroder ): You GOT me!

        ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): ( Laughs… three HA, HA, HA’s ).

        ( The video camera is now turned OFF ).

        END OF PRESS CONFERENCE VIDEO
        ————————————————-

        Reply

  15. I did my best to try and break my Jeep playin’ in the Oregon Dunes National Recreation Area for the past few days…but I didn’t.

    “WTKTT said, Actually… am I the only one who is just cynical enough to think that the very reason Ronald Gamble IS now sitting right there in Eric Marsh’s old office is because the Prescott Fire Department thought it would be a good idea to have him there where they can keep their ‘eye’ on him… and continue to CONTROL what he says?

    Is it REALLY just some gigantic coincidence that the guy who MIGHT know who was telling Eric Marsh to “Hurry up” in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 is now coming to work every day and sitting in Eric Marsh’s old office?”

    And I say, Experience taught me not to believe in coincidences.

    I am gratified to see that basically everyone agrees with take on the settlement offer to the families and their attorney, even if they didn’t use as colorful language as I did. I was especially gratified to read that David Turbyfill has basically agreed with what I said, since I know he has followed these events very closely due to his tragic and unimaginable loss.

    Reply

  16. **
    ** STILL NO UPDATES TO “ARIZONA FORESTRY VS. ADOSH” ONLINE CASE FILE

    In just the ‘settlement’ documents that have been released so far we can see clearly that
    there has been correspondence going back and forth during June between the Arizona
    Forestry lawyers and Administrative Law Judge Michael Mosesso…

    …but there have still been NO updates to the public online ALJ Hearing File since
    last May 28, 2015.

    That ALJ Hearing File page is still here…

    https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile

    We can also see from these documents ( that SHOULD have been appearing in the online ALJ Hearing File but have not ) that the ‘Settlement’ was being submitted for approval to Judge Mosesso as early as June 1, 2015.

    So since last May 28, it’s obvious there was a conscious decision to STOP updating the public ALJ Hearing File out of fear the “public” would learn of the settlement before they were ready to announce it with a press conference.

    It will be interesting to see if even now that the ‘settlement’ has been announced… the ALJ Hearing File gets updated with the relevant documents exchanged during June, 2015.

    Arizona LAW requires that the proceedings in an Administrative Judge action be made PUBLIC in as timely a manner as possible. The original ALJ Hearing File was being updated on at least a weekly basis before the ‘blackout’ starting on May 28, 2015.

    There’s also still no word on when the actual ‘settlement’ document between Arizona Forestry an the families of the deceased GM Hotshots will be available for PUBLIC inspection.

    It, too, is SUPPOSED to be a PUBLIC document, but has not yet been released.

    Rumor has it that the Arizona Attorney General’s office has “jumped the gun” and announced the settlement BEFORE actually obtaining ALL the required signed documents ‘accepting’ the settlement from ALL of the plaintiffs in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

    Until they do… then the ‘settlement’ itself is not ‘official’.

    Obviously Deborah Pfingston and Roxanne Warneke were somehow designated ( or volunteered ) to be ‘spokes-persons’ for the plaintiffs at the press conference… but they are actually just TWO of the TWELVE plaintiffs.

    It’s odd that we haven’t heard ( yet ) from the ALL the other TEN plaintiffs… and what THEY think of this lop-sided “settlement” being offered by Arizona Forestry.

    Reply

    • I hope Sonny you come here. I have no way to reach you not by cell or in person. My labs/tests need further immediate attention. Please drop off the dvds if not here to me than at the proper libraries- one says MARICOPA or YAVAPAI/PRESCOTT/SEDONA/ETC.

      I was at the ER until wee early morning today between 3:30-4am. Long evening. You speaking to EMT in the manner you did Sonny was not only inaccurate stating I hiked with a loved one where you said I did. Very not true. I have plenty of in person eye-witness that can stand up for me. You omitting yourself from scenario was very wrong. Also the biggest wrong was you told certain people WHO you spent the day with knowing FULL well we were asked PRIVACY on matter. Nice discernment. Biggest wrong you did to me is state what you did at the cabin; ugly talk. Way wrong. For the record, you are way off base like always.
      Yesterday began with my request as I did and you said “Joy, all is fine…just my teeth/oral pain…let’s go get breakfast”…My Congress neighbors are the first eye-witness that were at the Ranch house restaurant and the owner and workers were the other ones. I would not go to areas unless cleared first because I just won’t- I don’t want no unneeded horseshit. So we go to cabin with someone who knew the 19 very dear—We get into this person’s vehicle and spend time with McCracken’s and mind you I was planning defensible space for Sunday and now I am in yet another God led moment with the very person I always wanted to meet since the fire. Here I am looking at childhood photos of the GMHS and I am thinking here I was angry at this person just recently when the settlement happened and thought this person of all of them I was shocked they signed the settlement. Guess what…I can first hand confirm at least one of the 12 did not sign yet and… well… not to be of any spite… but for the honor and purity and for principle I hope the person never signs. I look forward to helping share the details to this person who mind you NEVER knew who I was or Sonny before yesterday. The person never watched media or anything. Knew of the on the burning edge book from hearsay. When the person sat next to us I was floored the person come in and the timing of service of beverage I joked to the person and than I said “you look familiar” and if I say the reply I would be poor in discernment like Sonny was last night. Yet it began a very lovely healing time. I took note Sonny felt I cut him off but I mean I had so many questions and so for that I apologize Sonny for any interruptions I made when you were attempting to speak. I just had no clue how long this person would sit in front of me. To think I spent the entire day versus just some sit down breakfast moment was indeed so helpful and healing for me. This person is genuine. Nothing like what you spoke to me like last night Sonny. I felt his pain as deep as I feel your pain Sonny of the loss of a loved one. You two share that depth. I was relieved this person has not yet signed and I was grateful for the memory yesterday. I have some items yet to get of mine at the cabin. I just do not deserve the path I am currently on with undeserving words so I have to shift it for health sake. Any doctors I can trust on here? Since last cancer marker/blood labs…besides the old horseshit the new changes are…my platelets are way too low, my neutrophil abnormally high (a high neutrophil count can be caused by cancer spreading in the body which explains the follow up on bone marrow), abnormally low lymphocyte count and I have a very junked up congested spleen/lymphatic system so that does not help., abnormally low eosinophil count caused by intoxication excessive production of cortisol (a steroid produced naturally in the body)., I barely have sugars unless I visit McCracken’s so that did not make sense to have high glucose. Electrolyte imbalance and very low calcium was drastic since last labs. Strange because I take supplements due to endurance hikes and medical history so strange to see that change. Low alkaline phosphatase was another new strange low…The strange thing as I am trying to gather focus and thoughts EMT lady who recognized me is correct in her assessment on scene because my vitals are always perfect or way low not abnormal on the high side and as a frequent hiker she is right on her statement. To have the higher pulse and shortness of breath and lose control of areas…sucks…I did find it funny my labs for the first time had results that this ER doctor had no clue who I am because they tested me for amphetamines/barbiturates/benzodiazepines/cocaine/methadone/opiates/oxycodone/pcp/tca/thc and it came back NEGATIVE. Really? duh. I never touch anything but my hershey bar with almonds…I do not have substance vices just side kick one and that stems back to being around at a young age of a serial killer. If my husband was working I either had my female workout pals or my male shopping or movie folks or hiking or archaeologist fun or bicycling but Sonny was my first hiking pal where I spent 24/7 moments trailing and pioneering all over Arizona and caves. He was my first to know in my life someone twenty four hours a day…you see my husband and I worked odd schedules that even him and I never saw another much. My urobilinogen borders abnormal. What was strange was the tearing/rupturing effect of the throat tumor when projectile vomiting with blood for hours on end until I FINALLY okayed the Zolfran into IV. My husband passes out on stuff like blood and vomit like I was so he walked out of room while Wendy helped me. I could not take the rough vomiting plus not feeling like ME but I was hard headed and waited too long because I don’t like any pharmaceuticals . I got a new copy of my brain but not able to open up on my desktop so take it to my chiropractor who has program to view- After my recent falls I was relieved to see no fractures or breaks or dislocations. Soft tissue concerns are much better than broken bones….What what was funny as hell was there is a stern direct quote statement and I do not even work but it says “Rest at home.” in regards to if I am able to regards to activities to work and or school. So I reckon no job yet and no school for me. The bacteria in blood, the bone marrow, the lymphatics, the tumors and the locations those are my main focus right now. Thank you again Marti Reed.

      I have no clue how much an ambulance ride or ER visit will put me back or under quite yet.
      I am sure I could of used an ambulance ride many other times but I could not function last night that it scared me—when I pee and poop without brain function acknowledgement and I cannot gather voices and what’s going on around me…time for me to be seen.

      I have something that was said in private but it is in regards to Dickmans book. The accounts of 65% of the book are not confirmed with the loved ones and are just the views of Donut who has not yet been brave or bold or do the right thing and speak up to these loved ones about that day and 2 prior hotshots accounts make that book—but no way the definite account. Do not BELIEVE everything you read in the NARRATIVE book of Dickman’s. Now, his account on us matches the given SAIR notes on the hikers so it now time for me to go to my friend’s home who has all the information kept there for safe keeping vs. my home and pull out the sound recording to send the SAIT people to show just alone the interview notes on us is not complete and inaccurate so Dickman only went by the notes he read—not his fault—yet tsk tsk tsk to the ones who did our interview. Not right.

      Not right at all. Today I am weak. Not doing a darn thing. Doing what they said- rest. I gave this person yesterday one of the glass pieces that Sonny turned into a purple 19 arrowhead.

      Reply

  17. **
    ** IN A VIDEO INTERVIEW ON THE SECOND ANNIVERSARY…
    **
    ** AUTHOR KYLE DICKMAN SAYS EVERYONE JUST HAS TO
    ** BE READY FOR MORE TRAGEDIES.

    Some media outlets are still only now getting around posting their VIDEOS from the second anniversary to their public YouTube accounts.

    EnGlobal News, a news feed for the FOX TV network, actually had an on-camera prime-time interview on the day of the second anniversary of the Yarnell tragedy with none other than author ( and former Hotshot ) Kyle Dickman.

    That VIDEO interview with Dickman ended up saved to EnGlobal’s own public Youtube page…

    Youtube account: EnGlobal News US
    Yourube video title: Two years after Yarnell Hill fire, what can be learned?
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fas_5AaFOhc

    Here is a full transcript of this on-camera interview with Dickman…
    ————————————————————————————
    ( Reporter ): Today marks TWO years since the Yarnell Hill fire killed a team of elite firefighters and we know you’ll remember this story well. The fire burned in Northern Arizona. Nineteen firefighters, known as ‘Hotshots’, got caught behind a wall of flames and despite their best efforts to survive, they all perished in the blaze.

    What have we learned from that disaster now, TWO years later?

    Kyle Dickman is a former Hotshot. He’s author of a new book “On the Burning Edge, A fateful fire and the men who fought it”.

    Kyle… it’s great to have you on the program and this story is one that I know really resonated with our viewers because it was so heartbreaking and so horrific to see this elite group of guys die trying to save others.

    Talk to us a little bit about what you were able to learn over the last TWO years.

    Why DID they die?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Well… they died trying to protect the town of Yarnell… and, I think, one of the biggest takeaways in reporting the book was that I think we have to be ready to see even MORE fatalities like this. I mean… you were just talking about all the fires that are burning. Southern California… in Northern California… I mean… Alaska’s burning.

    NOTE: At this point, +1:07 into the video, the background video being shown is that piece of ABC15 ‘Air 15’ Helicopter footage shot on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, which clearly shows the fire in the background that would eventually enter the box canyon and kill the GM Hotshots.

    ( Kyle Dickman ): When all these big fires start a lot of them are burning closer to houses… and so as we continue to see firefighters protecting these towns I think the sad truth is we have to continue to ready ourself for… uhm… more tragedies like Yarnell Hill.

    ( Reporter ): So I wanna talk to you a little bit about how we can do BETTER, in just a moment, but bring us back to that day two years ago.

    WHAT happened to these firefighters?
    WHY did they get caught in this fire?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Right… so… so… what happened is a thunderstorm developed over the fire and it sort of produced these thirty and forty mile per hour winds and it rapidly changed direction and started running toward the town of Yarnell.

    Uhm… the Hotshots were in what’s known as “the black”, which is the already burned fuel and it’s basically the safest place that anyone can be on a fire.

    And… uh… as they watched this fire face toward Yarnell they made the decision to get up and leave the safety of the black, presumably to help protect the houses.

    Uhm… ultimately, of course, they didn’t make it all the way back to the homes and… uh… they were caught and tragically killed enroute.

    ( Reporter ): Now.. there have been a series of different reports over the last two years about WHO made the call to move these firefighters and WHO is to blame… because, of course, in stories like this, everyone’s looking for that. An ANSWER to ‘explain the unexplainable’, virtually, but Kyle… what did YOU learn in reporting about this story?

    IS there someone to blame here?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): I mean I think you can blame… we… we can certainly lay blame on the Incident… uhm… on the Superintendent of the Hotshot Crew. His name was Eric Marsh. It was, ultimately, his decision to move the men… uhm… ya know… the truth is that fire was incredibly explosive. Nature was doing things to that… that blaze that… that were pretty exceptional and… uhm… ya know… I think that… that really these men died… uh… uh… because of the way fires are burning today… and so… uhm… but I guess if we… if we have to lay blame… maybe we blame Eric Marsh?

    ( Reporter ): And we certainly don’t… you know… it’s not about finger pointing as much as it’s being able to look back and reflect on it and figure out how we can actually do better.

    ( Kyle Dickman ): That’s right.

    ( Reporter ): You mention these… these fires that we’ve seen… and… they’re… I mean… they’re… they’re also taking homes and threatening lives as well. It’s taxpayer dollars that are going, whether or not you’re in a… in a state where the fire is burning or not… being invested to try and make sure that we fight these fires and keep them away from homes.

    What can we be doing BETTER?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Well… I think… ya know… right now we’re spendin’ 4.7 billion dollars most years between Federal, County and State… uh… firefighting agencies and I think what we NEED to be doing is spending millions PREPARING for fires and then millions… uh… fighting the fires that really need to be fought.

    And those are the blazes like Yarnell Hill, ultimately.
    Those that are burning very close to towns.

    But… uhm… I think that… that… solution to the problem is not to fight ALL fires, but to help… ya know… prepare for them.

    ( Reporter ): Let me ask you about the fire shelters. I know you have experience as a firefighter… also spent a year as a Hotshot as well. Uhm… we first learned about fire… uh… shelters probably during this story, because these were what looks like a sleeping bag that these firefighters put themselves in trying to protect themselves from the… the blaze. It… it… obviously didn’t work.

    How good is the technology that is given to firefighters to protect them?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Well… I think that’s a good question. I mean… I think that current fire shelters… obviously there’s… there’s a limit to what they can do and we saw that limit at Yarnell Hill. Uhm… they’re not actually designed to withstand direct contact with flames, ah… so the Forest Service is going back and is committed to redesigning these shelters to make something that’s… that can withstand higher temperatures.

    But… uh… you have to keep in mind that these guys are walking, carrying 40 to 50 pound packs… they may hike 12 miles a day… they’re… ya know… they’re running chainsaws, they’re cutting line all day, so… uh… they have design these shelters to be… to be very lightweight… and, ultimately, I don’t think you CAN create a shelter that will… uh… EVER withstand direct contact with flames… so…

    ( Reporter ): Right… right… the goal is never to be that close, really, to the fire… as dangerous as it is.

    ( Kyle Dickman ): It’s not. That’s right. Yea.

    ( Reporter ): Kyle… just a quick final question for you. Since you spent time as a firefighter and as a Hotshot… what was this story like reporting it out… and being so close to this story.

    How did it impact YOU?

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Well… I mean… obviously it was devastating story, and especially… for me… I didn’t know any of these men personally before I started the book, but… uhm… it was impossible for me not to see… ya know… myself in a lot of them and also a lot of my closest friends… so… ya know… it… it definitely took a toll.

    ( Reporter ): And it’s certainly something, again, as we watch some of the footage from this big story that WE remember well.. and we’ll remember their families today because, surely, for them, this story isn’t over.

    Kyle… great to have you on the program.
    Best of luck with the book, we really appreciate it.

    ( Kyle Dickman ): Thanks for havin’ me.
    ————————————————————————————————–

    As far as this statement of Dickman’s goes…

    ( Kyle Dickman ): When all these big fires start a lot of them are burning closer to houses… and so as we continue to see firefighters protecting these towns I think the sad truth is we have to continue to ready ourself for… uhm… more tragedies like Yarnell Hill.

    I think someone has neglected to tell Dickman that the laywers from the Arizona Attorney General’s office that have been assigned to defend Arizona Forestry against the Yarnell Fire ‘Property Damage’ lawsuits ( with over 160+ plaintiffs ) have already found the ‘answer’ to this problem.

    The lawyers told a Judge that Arizona Foresty ( and everyone who ever works or contracts with them ) does not EVER have even ONE single atomic molecule of duty and/or responsibility to EVER be ‘protecting town’, or ‘houses’, or ‘people’.

    And the Judge AGREED with them.

    That means in the future ( and indeed, in the past, such as in Yarnell itself ) if ANY firefighter in Arizona is EVER hurt or injured trying to protect a home or a person… then they were/are AUTOMATICALLY committing gross negligence.

    It means they were ALREADY doing something the Arizona Forestry lawyers have said they were/are NEVER supposed to be doing at all.

    Problem solved?

    Reply

    • Followup…

      Just this morning, Bill Gabbert over at Wildfire Today felt compelled to write a posting of his own regarding this FOX news on-camera interview with Kyle Dickman.

      His article ( and the comments being left ) amount to a lot of “who is throwing who under what bus”… but the person. actually being thrown under a moving vehicle seems to be Kyle Dickman himself.

      The first comment left is absolutely scathing with regards to former Hotshot Dickman and his ‘book’… and it’s unusual to see Gabbert allow a comment like that to appear. He usually just DELETES comments like that.

      Here is Gabbert’s post about the Dickman interview…

      http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/07/06/interview-with-author-of-book-about-yarnell-hill-fire/#comments

      Reply

  18. **
    ** DAVID TURBYFILL COMMENTS ON SETTLEMENT ANNOUNCEMENT

    There are still articles ( and interviews ) ‘popping’ with regards to the recently announced ‘settlement’ agreement in just the ‘wrongful death’ suits that were only being handled as one ‘enjoined’ case by attorney Patrick McGroder, who was caught by an open microphone at the end of the Settlement Press Conference itself telling his opponent, Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich “You GOT me!”.

    This one appeared today in the ‘Mojave Daily News’ and includes comments from David Turbyfill, the father of deceased GM Hotshot Travis Turbyfill.

    The Mojave Daily News
    Article Title: Yarnell lawsuit ends
    Published: Sunday, July 5, 2015 12:26 am
    http://www.mohavedailynews.com/news/yarnell-lawsuit-ends-with-little-cash/article_29bd8106-22e7-11e5-9f43-1ba162dd31ea.html

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————-
    Dave Turbyfill, whose son Travis died in the blaze, said he’s happy the families got something but it wasn’t enough to prompt real changes. He said he wasn’t a party to the lawsuit because he doesn’t believe that the state Forestry Division can force changes within the firefighting community.

    The settlement, he noted, was only a tiny fraction of what they originally sought.

    “It was a save face for the families, for the attorneys involved,” he said.
    “It was either get that or get nothing.”

    Turbyfill said he was disappointed there were no real answers to what happened.
    ——————————————————————————-

    In addition to Mr. Turbyfill’s comments… the article contains some additional ‘opinions’ coming from an attorney named Dwane Cates, a Phoenix trial attorney.

    He thinks the settlement was just way for everyone involved to “save face”.

    Dwane Cates said…
    ——————————————————————————-
    “You have to prove that there were just red flags everywhere and everybody ignored the dangers,” said Dwane Cates, a Phoenix trial attorney.

    Instead, the settlement allows both sides to essentially have a win. The state paid less than 1 percent of what the families originally sought — and avoided the public relations black eye that would have come from trying to beat widows and orphans in the courthouse. The families got a small amount of cash and a promise by the state Forestry Division to make safety changes.

    “I believe that the settlement probably was kind of a win-win because the firefighters had a long row to hoe to even get to the point to where they could win,” Cates said. “And No. 2, I don’t think the state of Arizona necessarily wanted to win, because that would have been a PR disaster if they had won in court and the firefighters got nothing.”
    ——————————————————————————-

    The settlement was NOT a real ‘WIN’ for the families of the Hotshots..

    It was FULL of compromises and just a one-sided settlement that favors Arizona Forestry.

    Even their own attorney, Pat McGroder, appears to have told his opponent Mark Brnovich at the end of the press conference that Brnovich “got the better of him” during these settlement negotiations.

    Since it really WAS never about the ‘money’ at all… and compensatory damages are simply a requirement as part of the filing for a ‘wrongful death’ suit… the REAL WIN for the families would have been to not accept ANY settlement… and just let the 12 wronful death cases proceed to trial.

    Even if Arizona Forestry prevails in the end… the TRUTH about what happened would very likely come out DURING any court proceeding regarding what happened that entire weekend in Yarnell… and that, itself, would be the VICTORY the families were ( and are still ) looking for.

    Reply

    • We could have given them about 20 RED FLAGS.
      It isn’t hard to find them if you pull a few out of the SAIT. And the past two years here .
      JD has mentioned quite a few in his Articles.. All Very provable and significant.

      On thing we do know McDonough Talking to Willis and things he told him was enough for Willis to Run to the City Attorney and the Both of them immediately go directly to the State Attorney General That in its self says a lot about the Information being quite a revelation.

      Hopefully Mrs. McKee will get a Court hearing or McDonough will hear from God and revile all to the Families and in his Book. One can only hope if we want all the Answers and Lesions Learned..

      If DICKMAN thinks lessons learned are that we are going to have more Fatalities he has totally missed the point. That is a lesson the Fire community never wants to repeat and one that says Wild Land Fire Fighters will take chances to save structures—- Which fly’s in the face of all the Safety Training the 10 and 18. No structure is worth ONE Fire Fighter’s life a thousand acres more burned is not worth ONE FF Life. The Government lets Thousands of Acres burn to reduce fuel— You should do the same when it is a matter of Safety.
      Get out of the way and let it Burn

      Stay Safe My Brothers and Sisters No One Needs To Die.

      Reply

  19. **
    ** KYLE DICKMAN ANSWERED QUESTIONS ON JULY 2, 2015

    Just a few days ago, on July 2, ‘Inside Climate News’ magazine published an article online that contains a Question/Answer session with Kyle Dickman.

    Kyle Dickman is the author of that book that came out recently called “The Burning Edge”, which the publishers are trying to (unbelievably) ‘pawn off’ as ‘the definitive account of the Yarnell Hill Fire’. It is no such thing.

    No great revelations in this interview with Dickman… but he DOES confirm that most of what he printed about what it was like to ‘ride’ with Granite Mountain came from Brendan McDonough and just TWO other former GM Hotshots ( Brandon Bunch and Renan Packer ).

    Inside Climate News
    Article Title: The Deadlier Scourge of Wildfires in an Age of Climate Change
    A Q&A with author Kyle Dickman, whose book, On the Burning Edge, explains
    why wildfire seasons are so bad and getting worse.
    Published: July 2, 2015 – by Katherine Bagley
    http://insideclimatenews.org/news/02072015/deadly-scourge-wildfires-climate-change-yarnell-hill-fire

    From the article
    ———————————————————-
    CN: The book is incredibly descriptive, reconstructing the Granite Mountain Hotshots’ 2013 wildfire season and the personal lives of the team. What was the reporting and research process like?

    Dickman: It was sad. I spent a lot of time with the families, of course. In the book, there is Brendan McDonough, who is the sole survivor of the Yarnell Hill fire. But there are two other sources who were critical in telling this story of the crew before the fire: Brandon Bunch and Renan Packer, who both left weeks before the tragedy. I spent a lot of time talking to those guys, figuring out where did they go, what happened on the fire line, the sort of everyday stuff. I love that. That’s the stuff I think was exciting to report because I got to see these guys, who I spent so much time thinking about, alive in some sense.

    What I wanted to do with each one of them was profile them so history won’t just remember them at the 19 guys who died, but as individuals. That was really what I was trying to do with the book.

    ICN: At the end of the book, you still didn’t find out what exactly happened that day on Yarnell Hill with those 19 men. Was that frustrating?

    Dickman: Maybe in the beginning that was frustrating. When hotshot groups get together, they still ask that question. Why did they leave the black [the already burnt, and therefore safe zone]?

    But I think, for me, I don’t think we’re ever going to know, but that doesn’t necessarily bother me.

    Not to diminish all the other factors in play, but I think mostly it was human factors, and that is why if we continue to fight fires, we have to continue to expect people to die because people are fallible. People are going to make mistakes. In an environment as dangerous and dynamic as a wildfire, the cost of those mistakes can be deadly.
    ———————————————————-

    It’s more than a little disengenuous for Kyle Dickman to pronounce that it will never be known WHY Granite Mountain left the safe black when he, himself ( as an author of a book about the tragedy ) barely lifter a finger to even TRY and find out what really happened.

    As an author ( with most likely an advance from his publisher to be working on this book ), he could have interviewed any number of people who were both participants and witnesses to the tragedy… including MANY people who were right there in the thick of it and have NEVER been interviewed by anyone… investigators included.

    He did NOT.

    He didn’t even bother to talk, himself, with Sonny (Tex) Gilligan and Joy Collura. He just regurgitated (false) statements attributed to them that were printed in the SAIR.

    He was also in a position to try and run some of the ‘mysteries’ to ground such as WHO Eric Marsh was ‘reporting’ to at 4:27 PM as recorded in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video, or what dozer operator Paul Morin STILL knows about what really happened that day, or any of the other ‘known mysteries’ surrounding the afternoon of June 30, 2013 in Yarnell.

    He did NOT.

    Nice work, Kyle.

    Reply

    • Typos above. Sorry.

      Paragraph above should have read like this…

      It’s more than a little disingenuous for Kyle Dickman to pronounce that it will never be known WHY Granite Mountain left the safe black when he, himself ( as an author of a book about the tragedy ) barely lifted a finger to even TRY and find out what really happened.

      Reply

  20. **
    ** NEW PUBLIC PHOTOS OF THE YARNELL HILL FIRE
    **
    ** FOUND BY JOY A. COLLURA

    Joy… thank you for finding those ‘new’ photos of the Yarnell Hill Fire on the public photos service known as FLICKR.

    These are all AMAZING photographs that I don’t believe many people have ever seen.

    They were ALL taken between 9:07 PM and 10:12 PM on Saturday night, June 29, 2013, in the hours just after the fire had ‘escaped’ from Arizona Forestry’s ICT4 Russ Shumate and started burning along the Weaver ridgeline to the north and the northeast.

    The were all taken with a telephoto lens from various vantage points in Yarnell.

    These photos show more CLEARLY than any others I’ve ever seen that were taken after dark on Saturday night how it was that fire burned north along the Weaver ridge… and how it burned DOWN the drainages near what would become known as the ‘anchor point’ that Granite Mountain was working on the next day… and how all that ‘safe black’ they would find on Sunday morning in that ‘anchor point’ area was actually created.

    It also shows clearly the fire that created the ‘slopover’ to the Congress side.

    These are INVALUABLE for anyone studying how the fire ESCAPED on Saturday and the progress it was making after the firefighting operations ceased on Saturday as the sun set.

    They clearly show how the ‘escaped’ fire burned north on the ridge AND was burning DOWN the drainages as it encountered them, even though it was nighttime.

    There are valuable “Lessons to Learn” just looking at these photos alone.

    These pictures show CLEARLY the ‘nightmare scenario’ that was apparently NOT in the mind of Arizona Forestry’s ICT4 Russ Shumate as he planned his Initial Attack on Saturday and only sent 6 men up there to make sure the fire was contained before dark THAT DAY.

    Here’s how to view these PUBLIC photos…

    FLICKR Username: jeremyii

    Direct link to his ‘page 3’ of PUBLIC photos containing 7 Yarnell Hill Fire photos…

    https://m.flickr.com/#/photos/jeremyii/page3

    NOTE: His ‘page 4’ contains one more Yarnell Hill Fire photo named “090”.
    Just hit the ‘Next Page’ button on his page 3 to see that photo on his ‘page 4’

    There is no GPS data embedded in the original photos.

    The time/date information IS embedded in the photos and appears to be accurate.

    The ‘Device’ information is also embedded in the photo.

    ALL of these photos were taken with the following camera…

    Camera Make: Canon
    Camera Model Name: Canon EOS REBEL T1i

    Here’s the time/date detail embedded in all of the photos…
    —————————————————————————————-
    On page 4 ( of 8 pages )…

    091 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 22:12:26 ( 10:12:26 PM )

    On page 3 ( of 8 pages )…

    090 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 22:12:14 ( 10:12:14 PM )
    055 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:56:15 ( 09:56:15 PM )
    049 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:53:44 ( 09:53:44 PM )
    043 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:51:59 ( 09:51:59 PM )
    039 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:29:02 ( 09:29:02 PM )
    031 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:23:55 ( 09:23:55 PM )
    026 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:07:15 ( 09:07:15 PM )
    —————————————————————————————-

    NOTE: When dealing with photos on public FLICKR accounts… the trick to getting an actually ‘original copy’ of the photo complete with all the EXIF data still embedded in it is to just choose a photo from someone’s album and then look for the “More information about this photo” link. Click that… then look for the “View all sizes” link. 9 times out of 10… on the next page that appears FLICKR has an option to ‘View Original Size’. Once you do that you can then right-click the image and then pick the “Save Image As” option. That saved image will usually be a copy of the same photo that was uploaded to FLICKR complete with the original EXIF metadata still embedded in the photo.

    Once again… THANK YOU to Joy A. Collura for ‘finding’ these IMPORTANT (public) photos.

    Reply

    • And when I say the photos “CLEARLY’ show what the fire was doing… I’m not kidding.

      These HIGH RESOLUTION photos taken by FLICKR user JeremyII all have a resolution of 4,752 pixels wide by 3,168 pixels high.

      In some of the photos… INDIVIDUAL BOULDERS can be made out up on the ridge, illuminated by the light of the fire itself.

      Joy… a QUESTION for you.

      Do you know who FLICKR User “JeremyII” actually is?

      The reason I ask is that we are seeing the original sequential photo numbers that were stamped on the photos with the Canon EOS Rebel T1i camera… but there are obviously a number of sequential photos MISSING from the FLICKR page.

      Again… here’s the ‘summary’ of the photos including filenames.

      Some of the filenames are in sequence ( like both 090 and then 091 ), but the rest of them obviosuly indicate there are MOR photos in-between the numbers.

      Matter of fact… there’s an indication there might be more than THIRTY other photos in-between photo number 055 taken at 9:56 PM… and then photo 090 taken 16 minutes later at 10:12 PM…

      091 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 22:12:26 ( 10:12:26 PM )
      090 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 22:12:14 ( 10:12:14 PM )
      055 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:56:15 ( 09:56:15 PM )
      049 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:53:44 ( 09:53:44 PM )
      043 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:51:59 ( 09:51:59 PM )
      039 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:29:02 ( 09:29:02 PM )
      031 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:23:55 ( 09:23:55 PM )
      026 – Date/Time Original: 2013:06:29 21:07:15 ( 09:07:15 PM )

      The sequential photo filenames 026 through 091 indicate that “JeremyII” actually took at least 65 ( SIXTY FIVE ) photos between that 1 hour and 6 minute time period on Saturday night, June 29, 2013, between 9:07 PM and 10:12 PM.

      Only EIGHT of them ended up being posted to that public FLICKR page.

      Reply

  21. Reply to Bob Powers post on July 3, 2015 at 3:15 pm

    >> Bob Powers said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT You need to reread the above news release
    .>> Noted ___ When all litigations conclude including appeals then the
    >> State will discuss the information with the Families.

    Yes. You are right. Thank you.

    The article reporting about the remaining litigation on behalf of Marcia McKee, written by Nigel Duara of the “Daily Pilot”, DOES say that.

    Again.. that article is here…

    The Daily Pilot ( covering Newport and Costa-Mesa, California )
    Firefighters settlement in deadly wildfire includes dad of former Costa Mesa man
    Published: June 30, 2015, 5:42 p.m – By Nigel Duara
    http://www.dailypilot.com/news/tn-dpt-me-0701-mckee-settlement-20150630,0,7791868.story

    Actually… the article has a mysterious bit of detail in it as well with regards to
    this supposed “8 hour meeting”… and what it specifically says is the following…
    —————————————————————————————
    A common complaint from families of the dead Hotshots was that state officials did not fully explain what caused the tragedy and whether it could have been avoided. The Forestry Division agreed that when all litigation concludes, including appeals, it will have an eight-hour meeting with the families and consultants to review information about the fire and answer questions, with lawyers present.
    ————————————————————————

    BTW: The “Daily Pilot” is NOT an Arizona newspaper. It’s mailing address is 10540 Talbert Ave., Suite 300 Fountain Valley, California, 92708, and the paper covers the Newport Beach and Costa Mesa, California areas. Marcia McKee lives in the Costat Mesa area so this was a “local story” for the “Dailly Pilot”.

    There is no reason to doubt this “Daily Pilot” article.

    The QUESTION would be… how do they know what they just printed including the specific detail that this Q/A session will be an “8 hour meeting”? ( Just ONE? ).

    AFAIK… a copy of the actual settlement agreement where kind of detail might be specified still hasn’t been “made available” to the press or to the public yet… and there is actually no good explanation why that is so… or WHEN it WILL be made available.

    Perhaps the “Daily Pilot” actually got that bit of detail from Mr. Scott McKee Sr., who WAS part of the 12 combined wrongful-death cases that just settled?

    Does the ACTUAL (written) settlement agreement actually say “not until all litigation has ceased” and does it actually (specifically) say there will be just this ONE “8 hour meeting”? If so… I wonder what ELSE it says?

    What I was going on was what attorney Pat McGroder said during the Settlement Press Conference the other day.

    Attorney Pat McGroder is the one who told the public, in the press conference, that as part of the settlement Arizona Forestry has PROMISED to (quote) “sit down with the families and answer their questions”. And not just ONCE, either.

    Mr. McGroder makes NO MENTION of there being any constraints or conditions regarding these “sit downs” and the impression he was giving everyone was that these Q/A sessions could now take place IMMEDIATELY.

    Here is exactly what attorney Pat McGroder said about this
    in the Settlement Press Conference…
    ————————————————————————
    +37:13
    ( Pat McGroder ): I’ll answer that question.

    Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy
    describe what he saw… what he heard that day.

    Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.

    But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge
    firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know of the enormity
    of the committment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down
    with our families… at great lengths… at great expense… and answer
    their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally
    or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.

    So we’re very comfortable in terms of the committment to the State Forester.
    ————————————————————————

    So there was the PERFECT ( and the APPROPRIATE ) opportunity for attorney Pat McGroder to inform everyone that one of the (apparent) CONDITONS of this part of the settlement agreement is that Arizona Forestry will still be REFUSING to open and honestly “answer any questions” about the fire and what happened… and what they may know that has never been made public or supplied via valid FOIA requests… only when all litigations and appeals have ceased.

    But McGroder obviously chose to NOT mention THAT part of the settlement.

    >> Bob Powers also said…
    >>
    >> I would conclude that means the Mckee Law suit and any appeals.

    Yes. No other way to read that, really.

    If what the “Daily Pilot” is reporting is true then we have to also assume that means any/all appeals that stem from the unrelated “Property Damage” lawsuits filed against Arizona Forestry.

    Reply

    • Followup…

      By ‘unrelated’… I simply meant that the Property Damage lawsuits are NOT ‘wrongful-death’ lawsuits.

      The cases obviously ARE related in that the same long list of Arizona Forestry employees and contractors could still be called to the witness stand as easily in the “Property Damage” suits as they could in any “wrongful death” proceeding.

      So even though the “Daily Pilot” article does not specifically mention the ‘Property Damage’ suits… if the actual recently-signed settlement document does contain specific language about “We will still answer NO questions from the families of the deceased until there is NO litigation or appeals still pending”… then it stands to reason that is talking about the “Property Damage” suits ( and the 160+ plaintiffs ) as well.

      Reply

      • Let me also say that I think it’s strange we have to be reading articles being published by a small local newspaper in Costa Mesa, California, in order for some of these very important details about this historic legal settlement to be emerging.

        I’m VERY curious about this specific “8 hour meeting” thing. ( ONE time only? ).

        It sits in direct contradiction of what attorney Pat McGroder seemed to be saying ( during the Settlement Press Conference ).the families were/are expecting from Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney.

        Reply

        • As usual some additional good Information. I had to read the article twice to realize what it was saying. Would this end up a private release of information and the public not be privy to it?????
          More strange things going on here. Along with every thing else we have gone thru in Search of the truth. now we get hung out again for how ever long the State wants to keep the Families on a string.

          Reply

          • Bob Powers says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on July 3, 2015 at 8:47 pm

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> Would this end up a private release of information
            >> and the public not be privy to it?????

            Good question.

            Totally unaddressed by attorney Patrick McGroder or Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney during this one-and-only press conference about this historic ‘settlement’.

            Something tells me that even when we finally see the actual written settlement document between Arizona Forestry and the 12 families… it won’t even SAY whether the information that’s (supposedly) going to be revealed in this (supposed) 8 hour Q/A session is meant to be private or public.

            Arizona Forestry could give a rats ass what the public ever knows.

            The ‘settlement’ was all about making the families happy… or at least satisified. Happy is the wrong word. There is NOTHING ‘Happy’ about maybe finally learning the TRUTH about why your loved ones burned to death working for Arizona Forestry.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> More strange things going on here. Along with every thing
            >> else we have gone thru in Search of the truth. now we get
            >> hung out again for how ever long the State wants to
            >> keep the Families on a string.

            There MAY even be a clause in the “contract” that just got signed ( and make no mistake… that’s what a settlement document is ) which states that the families are NEVER supposed to reveal ANYTHING they learn from Arizona Forestry from this day forward… or they have to give the money back.

            I just wonder WHEN there is going to be a PUBLIC copy of this actual ‘contract’ the family members just signed.

            There isn’t even a good explanation why it wasn’t made available already along with the other PUBLIC settlement documents.

            Remember… this is not Exxon Mobile doing the ‘settling’ here.

            It’s a 100 percent taxpayer funded PUBLIC agency.

            Reply

  22. **
    ** SOME OF THE ACTUAL SETTLEMENT DOCUMENTS NOW ONLINE

    FYI… InvestigativeMEDIA has now published 3 of the actual ‘settlement’ documents.

    They are available via this IM page…

    InvestigativeMEDIA
    Article Title: Supporting legal documents to Yarnell Hill Fire settlement released
    Published: July 1, 2015 By John Dougherty
    http://www.investigativemedia.com/supporting-legal-documents-to-yarnell-hill-fire-settlement-released/

    From the IM article…
    ————————————————————————————
    InvestigativeMedia is posting the settlement agreement, settlement agreement and order and the revised citation issued by the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health against the Arizona Forestry Division in connection with the June 30, 2013 deaths of 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots while fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    InvestigativeMedia will post the settlement agreement between ADOSH, the Forestry Division and the 12 families of the deceased hotshots when it becomes available. One remaining lawsuit brought by the mother of Granite Mountain Hotshot Grant McKee remains in litigation.
    ————————————————————————————

    Reply

    • >> John Dougherty said…
      >>
      >> One remaining lawsuit brought by the mother of Granite Mountain Hotshot
      >> Grant McKee remains in litigation.

      Marcia McKee was the first to file a ‘wrongful death’ suit on behalf of her son Grant… and I hope the lousy settlement the other family members just decided to agree to convinces her that she should NOT even enter ( or continue ) any settlement talks with the defendants.

      Win or lose… the BEST thing Marcia McKee could do is simply let her civil action proceed to trial.

      There only has to be ONE active court case in order for any number of participants and witnesses to be “called to the stand” and have to tell “the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth”.

      Even the family members who just agreed to this lopsided settlement said at the settlement press conference itself that “there is still work to do”… and that they intend to still continue to find out what REALLY happened that weekend in Yarnell.

      There are people that were involved with the tragedy who will obviously ONLY tell what they know if they are FORCED to do so.

      So I hope Marcia McKee realizes that… and also realizes that she alone now has one of the only remaining legal instruments to finally get some of these people to tell the truth.

      Even if she LOSES the proceeding… most ( or perhaps all ) of what still needs to be discovered has a good chance of simply coming out DURING the trial… and that will be the best thing she could possibly cause to happen for ALL the families of the fallen.

      Reply

      • As I wrote downstream:
        ———————————————

        “”There’s a lot of things that had been withheld and lied about, and you cannot lie to somebody about how their child died,” said Scott McKee, whose son, Grant, was killed on the mountain that day.

        McKee believes state forestry officials know more than they have disclosed about what happened.”

        http://www.kpho.com/story/25909911/state-keeping-yarnell-hill-fire-secrets-say-critics

        This actually fits in with the conversation below about Investigations™ in the era of “Lessons Learned™”.

        So, I guess what Scott McKee said “you cannot lie to somebody about how their child died,” is really about all I have to say.

        Except for this addition:

        I wonder where Scott McKee went
        —————————————–

        Apparently he’s still there. In spite of everything. We may have an actual hero here.

        Thank you for holding firm, Scott McKee!

        And all my heartfelt best to you.

        Reply

        • I would imagine with one Law Suit Still hanging the State is not going to be forth coming about any thing until The McKee Law Suit is Settled.

          Reply

          • Absolutely NO mention of any kind of ‘conditions’ like that in the recent settlement on the part of the other 12 families.

            Nothing about “When all litigations and appeals have ended”.

            Zero. Zip. Nada.

            State Forester Jeff Whitney has (supposedly) PROMISED to start sharing information with the families and answer (quote) “whatever questions they might have” IMMEDIATELY… not years from now.

            That brings up the real question (again) about ‘accountabity’.

            What provisions are their in this settlement to FORCE Whitney and Arizona Forestry to live up to all the crucial ‘promisrs’ upon which the settlement is based?

            We still have yet to see the actual document that codifies this actual settlement between Arizona Forestry and the families of at least 12 of those men who died a horrible death while working in an Arizona Forestry mis-managed workplace.

            Reply

            • Sorry about all the typos up above. Posted from a ‘dumbphone’.

              I obviously meant to say…

              Where is the “accountability” on Arizona Forestry’s part for all these crucial new promises they have made as part of a legal, binding settlement agreement?

              Reply

        • The following article clears up some confusion regarding the McKee lawsuits.

          GM Hotshot Great McKee’s father ( Grant McKee Sr. ) WAS part of the ‘enjoined lawsuits’ that were all being handled as one legal action by attorney Patrick McGroder.

          It is the original ( and FIRST ) wrongful death suit filed by Grant McKee’s MOTHER, Marcia McKee that hasn’t been settled yet. She is using a different attorney ( as in… NOT McGroder ).

          http://www.dailypilot.com/news/tn-dpt-me-0701-mckee-settlement-20150630,0,7791868.story

          Reply

          • Darnit… dumbphone spell checker struck again and changed an instance of ‘Grant’ to the word ‘Great’ up above.

            Apologies (again).

            His name was ‘Grant McKee’.

            He had no intentions of being a career Hotshot. It was just a temp job to him and he was hoping to make enough money to continue his education and pursue his dream of being an EMT.

            Reply

      • I’m sitting here waking up and wondering if this was a “group decision” of some kind.

        What benefit would there be to agree to decide to go ahead and settle, but have just one suit proceed?

        They may have won more than they lost, since it wasn’t about the money (and I believe that).

        Reply

  23. **
    ** GM HOTSHOT FAMILIES ATTORNEY PATRICK MCRODER TELLS
    ** HIS OPPONENT, ATTORNEY GENERAL MARK BRNOVICH, THAT HE
    ** KNOWS BRNOVICH ‘GOT THE BETTER OF HIM’ DURING NEGOTIATIONS..
    **
    ** MCGRODER TOLD BRNOVICH…
    **
    ** YOU GOT ME!

    I’ve finished that full transcript of the Settlement Press Conference held the other day at the Arizona Attorney General’s building in Phoenix and I will publish that shortly.

    The transcript now also shows the actual questions that the reporters were asking during the press conference.

    The transcript ALSO shows what was said by GM Hotshot families attorney Patrick McGroder to his opponent, Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, the moment the press conference ended.

    I thought that deserved a POST all by itself.

    The Press Conference VIDEO itself ( 45 minutes and 33 seconds ) is HERE…

    YouTube title: FNN: Yarnell Hill Fire Settlement Press Conference
    Posted by YouTube User: FOX 10 Phoenix
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7GASJl5T6Q

    The following is a transcript of the final few moments of the press conference when the attorney for the GM Hotshot family members, Patrick McGroder, was answering a reporter’s question “What about McDonough and Blue Ridge?”

    Mr. McGroder finishes his answer, and that is the end of the press conference, but the microphone was still ‘HOT’ and we hear Mr. McGroder then saying a final “Thank you” to Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich… but then McGroder CLEARLY says to his opponent…

    “You GOT me!”

    From the Press Conference VIDEO / AUDIO…
    —————————————————————————————
    +41:49

    ( Attorney for the Hotshot familes Pat McGroder ): Now… whether or not… uh… the Federal Government decides to HIDE again as they did in another one of my cases, fast and furious, we’ll see.

    Uh… but at the end of the day… uh… I am comfortable that to the extent there are FACTS out there that we may or may not know… or a spin on those facts that we may or may not know… that information will be forthcoming.

    Thank you all for coming.

    ( Moderator ): There’s some additional information in the back… if you don’t have the details with ADOSH… back there with the gentleman… back there. Some of us will be stickin’ around. Thank you all for coming.

    ( The open microphone then captures the following verbal exchange between Plaintiff’s attorney Pat McGroder and Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich where McGroder admits to Brnovich… “You got me!” during their mano-y-mano “Thank you… NO.. thank YOU” moment on the stage )…

    +42:24
    ( Pat McGroder ): Mark… thanks man.

    ( They shake hands and pat each other on the back ).

    ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Thank you, brother. Thanks for everything.

    ( Pat McGroder ): Thank you.

    ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): Thank YOU, seriously.

    ( Patrick McGroder ): You got me!

    ( Attorney General Mark Brnovich ): ( Laughs… three HA, HA, HA’s ).

    ( The video camera is now turned OFF ).

    END OF PRESS CONFERENCE VIDEO
    —————————————————————————————————

    So basically… we now hear from GM family attorney Patrick McGroder himself that he KNOWS Attorney General Brnovich “got the better of him” during these negotiations.

    It was NOT a ‘win’ for the families.

    McGroder KNOWS he LOST… and the Hotshot families got SCREWED.

    Just based on this statement alone… I think the Granite Mountain Hotshot families should retract the settlement agreement(s), find themselves another attorney, and just refuse to even negotiate this second time around.

    Just go for the trial… and find out what REALLY happened.

    Reply

    • There is actually a clear (visual) view of the “You GOT me!” moment in the video itself.

      The camera was panning back and around at the end of the conference but at the very moment when GM Hothshot families attorney McGroder and his ‘opponent’ Arizona Attorney General Brnovich are having their mano-y-mano “Thank you… NO… thank YOU” moment…

      The foreground clears and at exactly +42:30… McGroder says… “You GOT me!”…

      …and he is clearly pointing his finger right at Brnovich’s chest when he says it.

      Then Brnovich is clearly seen laughing his three “HA HA HA’s” in response just as the video is “fading to black”.

      If anyone is having ANY trouble hearing McGroder admit to his opponent Brnovich that the Attorney General “got the better of him” during the deliberations… just look for that moment at +42:30 when McGroder is clearly pointing his finger at Brnovich up there on the stage.

      Reply

    • **
      ** BASS-ACKWARDS

      And here is that part of the transcript of the Settlement Press Conference video that covers that moment when the attorney representing the Granite Mountain Hotshot families ( Patrick McGroder ) told the reporter ( whose first name was Howard ) that he was going to “straighten his ass out”.

      This shows the actual QUESTION that reporter asked Mr. McGroder.

      From the Settlement Press Conference video…
      —————————————————————————–

      ( Patrick McGroder, attorney for the GM Hotshot families, is still speaking to the issue of whether information is being withheld by the US Forestry Service with regards to ALL of its ’employees’… who have either never been interviewed at all or have been put under ‘gag’ orders… and that includes the Blue Ridge Hotshots, Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Bravo 33 Air Attack crew John Burfiend and Thomas French, and a long list of others… )

      +39:00
      ( Attorney Patrick McGroder )…

      The IDEA… the IDEA that the Federal Government is withholding information…

      The IDEA that ANYONE would withhold information from these families…

      Uh… is… it… it really speaks to the lack of understanding and empathy and dignity that they should have for these families.

      So… we would PUBLICLY call for the Blue Ridge Mountain folks and the
      National Forest Service to let their people talk.

      However… at THIS point in time… we’re dealing with families that have suffered the utmost of tragedies… and we are VERY comfortable in terms of the commitments that the State Forester has made to render information to us within HIS purview.

      Mr. McDonough is… uh.. irrelevant to this press conference today.

      +39:28
      ( Reporter 1 ): Well wait… I wanna make sure… you’re saying… that they PROMISED… based on this… NOW they will open up… which seems a little different than ‘they’ve opened up and now you feel confident’. Your last statement suggests that ‘now that we’ve got a deal… now they’ll give you the rest of the details’. That seems a little bass-ackwards.

      (Pat McGroder): Well… uh… let me straighten your ass out, Howard.

      ( Reporter 1 ): Okay. Tell me where I’m wrong.

      ( Pat McGroder ): Allright.
      ———————————————————————-

      And then McGroder DID attempt to answer the reporter’s ( Howard’s ) question… but actually never did. He just concludes his response by saying that he simply ‘thinks’ that if there are any other ‘facts’ out there still to be known or heard… that they will be (quote) “forthcoming”… but he gives no timeframe, timetables, or assurances.

      Reply

  24. Well…I just read the settlement document AZDF agreed to, and here is my take.

    The families, the truth, and almost everybody else really took a good hard fuckin’ on this one, AZDF skated by thumbing their noses at everybody, whatever they agreed to do with the families is lip service and not worth the paper it will be written on.

    The system and “they” have won again. What a joke. I’m sorry, but this is bad even for somebody who is used to seeing the worst and sees the world only in shades of grey by experience, never in black and white, right and wrong is relative not an absolute, everything is subjective and negotiable. Reading the official agreement document itself somehow seems much worse than reading a summary of it.

    I am however, interested in what each of you thinks, am I just being a negative prick or is this as bad as I think it is?

    I would NEVER have signed that document. I may not have had the money to keep fighting someone with unlimited defense funds, so I may have had to walk away, but I never would have signed that almost unconditional surrender.

    AZDF saved more than $219,000,000, you can fight for a long time for that kind of money.They aren’t even paying the families who didn’t sue the $25,000, which I thought was the LEAST they could do under the circumstances.

    Reply

    • I agree with you Gary…

      It goes to show how much value a state government puts on its dedicated employees, who go out and fight wildfires, or police or EMT’s, or what have you…

      I would hope my wife would never have signed the deal, if I was in the shoes of the GMIHS.

      Reply

      • No, that was one thing I learned over the years that took me awhile to comprehend, the government doesn’t care one little bit about the individual except in very general terms.

        The government is like a giant organism that sheds individual cells at will and focusing all of it’s energy on the health of the overall system. It’s no different than Exon Mobil or any other big company.

        And no, I don’t get the math. The millions of dollars the families got from the public changed all of the math for everybody. Nobody NEEDS any of the money from the state, some may want it, but nobody NEEDS it.

        And I have walked the walk in addition to talking the talk on that one, I would have walked away from that settlement deal in a heartbeat. The blah, blah, blah about making changes in the way fire is fought is bullshit and they could have gotten that much by writing a letter to them, or having that crazy nut job Karen Fann write a letter for them. It sounds like a big con game to me and the families have to know that, they are just looking for an excuse to get out of it with enough cover to hold their bullshit Peace With Honor press conference.

        Which I can understand, but if that’s the case, they should never have started. What did they think fighting the government for 220 million dollars was going to be like? They should have asked me, I have been blogging about it for years now at this point.

        Reply

        • Looking at this from a community perspective, I get it. Sort of like how a family has a need to bury its secrets and move on, which is accentuated if the family is a bit insular. If I were to have been giving advice to the relatives of the deceased, part of it would have been focused on, once they decided to pursue a lawsuit, to move and develop support networks in another state. Because the screw-ups here were pervasive. The people they were negotiating with have practice every day in distancing themselves emotionally from problems and cleaning up, and doing so under a badge of authority. The families have no practice, no badge, and have just gone through grieving so are even more subject to pressure to paper everything over to make everyone “feel nice.” So, from a social network and social pressure perspective, I get it.

          Reply

  25. **
    ** AZCENTRAL JUST DID A VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH EX-BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOT
    ** RONNIE GAMBLE… WHO SHOT THE ‘YARNELL-GAMBLE’ VIDEO

    In conjunction with this SECOND anniversary of the tragedy in Yarnell, AZCENTRAL did a VIDEO interview with ex-Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronnie Gamble.

    Ronnie Gamble is ( supposedly ) the Blue Ridge Hotshot who was sitting in the driver’s seat of one of the Blue Ridge Crew Carriers and shot the infamous video entitled YARNELL-GAMBLE at exactly 4:27 PM.

    That’s the video that (apparently) captured a conversation with someone in fire management wondering why Granite Mountain wasn’t ‘in town’ yet and then telling Eric Marsh to “Hurry up and get town” at 4:27 PM.

    Eric Marsh replied ( with exasperation in his voice ) “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

    The identity of the person who seemed to be fully aware that Granite Mountain had an ‘assignment’ in Yarnell and was wondering why they weren’t in place yet at 4:27 PM has never been fully established.

    CAVEAT: It has also never been fully established that the conversation at the beginning of the YARNELL-GAMBLE clip with someone telling someone to “Hurry up… but you’re the superintendent… you’ll figure it out” actually was the radio traffic that Eric Marsh was actually responding to with his “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire” response. But regardless… Eric Marsh’s voice and his response has never been in doubt and Marsh was obviously responding to SOMEONE in fire command whom he felt obligated to report to about the current status of Granite Mountain at 4:27 PM… just 12 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to appear on the Air-To-Ground radio channel.

    As we discovered here a few months ago… shortly after the tragedy, Blue Ridge Hothshot Ronnie Gamble left the Blue Ridge organization and went to work as part of the ‘new’ Prescott Station 7 ‘Fuels Crew’. ( along with two other FFs yet to be identified ).

    He actually works out of ‘Station 7’ in Prescott, the former home of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,. and that’s where this recent AZCENTRAL video interview actually took place.

    As you will see if you watch the video… he and the other two Prescott Fuels Crew members are still ‘spooked’ about stepping on the black tiles that spell out GMIHC onthe floor of Station 7. Eric Marsh laid those tiles himself and the rule when he was alive was that if any ‘newbie’ stepped on any black tile in the GMIHC logo on the floor… they were immediately obliged to “drop and give me 50” ( pushups ).

    So Gamble and the other FFs are still ‘spooked’ about that and they try to never step on the black tiles.

    I think that’s just WEIRD ( and unnecessary ) but you’re mileage may, of course, vary.

    This AZCENTRAL article actually went NATIONAL today, and the following is the USAToday link…

    AZCENTRAL
    Article Title: Crew continues work started by fallen Arizona firefighters
    Published: 4:50 p.m. EDT June 30, 2015 by Richard Ruelas, The Arizona Republic
    http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/30/yarnell-hill-fire-anniversary/29508705/

    VIDEO window has this caption…
    —————————————————-
    Prescott firefighter Ronnie Gamble works with two other firefighters
    continuing the work of the 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shots killed in
    the Yarnell Hill Fire in 2013.
    —————————————————-

    Here is a TRANSCRIPT of the audio from this video interview with Ronnie Gamble…

    RR = AZCENTRAL reporter Richard Ruelas
    —————————————————————————————
    ( RR ): It’s hard for any firefighter to work in the shadow of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    ( Ronnie Gamble ): It’s very humbling, ya know, I mean… knowing that the reason I have a job is because of what these men did.

    ( RR ): Ronnie Gamble works with two other firefighters cutting brush and trees to stop the spread of wildfires. They fight fires before they get started.

    ( Ronnie Gamble ): So you can tell by looking at it how much we thinned that out.

    ( RR ): At Prescott Fire Station 7, reminders of the 19 firefighters who died in the Yarnell Hill Fire are everywhere.

    ( Ronnie Gamble ): You tend not to think about it.. but you never forget. When you walk in through these doors.. ya know… you respect… you respect those guys, ya know, one of the rules is that you don’t step onto the black.

    After you were here for a year as a Hotshot… you were allowed to step on the black tiles on the floor and so… ya know… all of here who have never… ya know.. been on the Granite Mountain Hotshots… we still honor that rule… ya know… we honor that for them… ya know.. because we… we’ll never be Granite Mountain Hotshots so we… still just don’t… we.. we honor that rule and we don’t walk on the black tiles.

    It’s somethin’ we can still do to honor them… ya know. They were great men.

    I think with time… um… it gets easier.
    You never forget… but with time it gets easier.

    ( RR ): In a quiet way… he’s continuing the work of the Hotshots, following in footsteps left at Station 7.
    —————————————————————————————

    The absolute ASTOUNDING thing here about this VIDEO interview is that here we have Ronnie Gamble himself consenting to a VIDEO interview with Richard Ruelas from the Arizona Republic ( who has been known to be doing hard-hitting coverage of the Yarnell incident from day one )… and reporter Richard Ruelas doesn’t ask him ONE SINGLE QUESTION about this infamous YARNELL-GAMBLE video that he ( supposedly ) shot and was supplied to the original SAIT investigation.

    Much less any question such as… “Did you hear the rest of that conversation that was apparently taking place between someone in fire command and DIVSA Eric Marsh.. and do you recall the CALL SIGN of the person who appears to be urging him to “Hurry up”?

    I.Just.Can’t.

    If Ronnie Gamble now feels that free to be ‘interviewed’ and talk about Granite Mountain ‘on camera’… I wish Ruelas would shoot right back to Station 7 and ask him even just that one crucial question.

    It is still REALLY, REALLY important.

    What’s almost a little scary is to realize that there he is… one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who might still hold the KEY to what happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots… no longer working for the Blue Ridge Hotshots but, instead, showing up for work every day in the same station where Granite Mountain worked and trying not to step on the black tiles laid by Eric Marsh.

    You.Just.Can’t.Make.This.Shit.Up.

    Reply

    • Actually.. if anything we heard at a press conference yesterdady initiated by the Arizona Attorney General himself… and attended by Arizona Governor Doug Ducey’s own personal legal counsel is TRUE…

      And if anything attorney Pat McGroder and new Arizona Sate Forester Jeff Whitney said at this same PUBLIC press conference is not complete BULLSHIT…

      Then Jeff Whitney, Pat McGroder, Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light, and the families of the deceased Granite Mountain Hotshots should walk into that Granite Mountain Station 7 with a video camera as soon as possible and the resulting video should capture the following conversation…

      ——————————————————————————
      ( Prescott Fire Chief Dennis Light ): Just answer the questions as best as you can Ronnie, and don’t be afraid. I am you’re boss and I’m assuring you whatever you say… you are NOT going to lose your job.

      ( Pat McGroder or Jeff Whitney ): Ronnie… tell us everything you know about this YARNELL-GAMBLE video that you seem to have supplied to the SAIT investigators. Did you remember the REST of that conversation and do you remember the CALL SIGN of the person who seemed to be wondering why Granite Mountain wasn’t where he was expecting them to be by 4:27 PM and was then telling Marsh to get them to “Hurry up”.

      ( Ronnie Gamble then says ): ?????????
      ———————————————————————————

      If he doesn’t remember… he doesn’t remember.

      If he DOES… then this could end up one of the most important pieces of testimony that has ever surfaced in this ongoing investigation.

      If he remembers ANYTHING ELSE about that 4:27 PM ‘YARNELL-GAMBLE’ radio conversation… then it could blow the lid off everything that appears to have been always been concealed as fast as you can say…

      “It’s always okay to just tell the frickin’ TRUTH”.

      Reply

      • I mean… this is not ‘rocket science’, folks.

        There he is… one of the persons who might hold the KEY to finding out what really happened on June 30, 2013 actually showing up for work every day at the very ‘Station 7’ where the dead men used to work… trying not to step on black tiles.

        Reply

        • Followup…

          Forgot to mention…

          It’s also not like AZCENTRAL reporter Richard Ruelas didn’t know WHO he was actually talking to, either.

          In the TEXT portion of Ruelas’ report we find this…

          ———————————————————————
          Gamble also fought the Yarnell Hill Fire, as part of the Blue Ridge Hotshots.

          His team picked up Brendan McDonough, the lone survivor of the Granite Mountain crew working as a scout some distance from the fire. The other 19 members of the Granite Mountain crew perished June 30, 2013, when they were overtaken by fire in a brush-filled canyon.
          ———————————————————————

          That’s it.

          That’s all he said about Gamble’s involvement with the Yarnell File.

          ASTOUNDINGLY… absolutely NO MENTION that this is the individual who is presumed to have shot the infamous YARNELL-GAMBLE video… which could still hold the key to one of the biggest ‘mysteries’ of this entire tragedy.

          Reply

    • I caught that one, too.

      I bet Holly Neil did, also.

      And the Gamble video was one of her major “talking points” in her evaluation of Kyle Dickman’s book on Amazon Dot Com.

      Speaking of Kyle Dickman, he was interviewed June 28 on National Public Radio.

      “Two Years After Deadly Wildfire, Are There Lessons In The Ashes?”

      http://wvpublic.org/post/two-years-after-deadly-wildfire-are-there-lessons-ashes

      ” And the fire suddenly changed direction — there was 30-to-40 mph winds … what had been a relatively sleepy flank of the fire suddenly jumped and became, you know, 20-foot and then 30-foot and then 40-foot flames. And that wall of fire was rushing toward the town of Yarnell. And Eric Marsh, who was the superintendent of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, was forced to make a decision. He had to decide whether or not he wanted to leave the safety of what’s called “the black,” which is the already burned fuel, and move into the town of Yarnell, where they could presumably do something to protect the houses, or he could keep his crew in the safety of the black and watch this town burn.

      Ultimately, of course, he decided to move the crew back into the town of Yarnell. And they never made it; the fire caught them before they reached the houses.”

      Reply

      • Kyle Dickman didn’t speak of the same “Lessons Learned” we have written here.

        He, as usual, pulls the focus to the need for, as Gamble did, also, essentially, controlling fire on our terms instead of trying (mostly in vain) to fight fire on its terms.

        Which is, absolutely, a good and necessary thing.

        Reply

    • Based on my experience that interview was set up by the Prescott Fire Department and or the City of Prescott Public Information Officer or the equivalent and there were preconditions that Ruelas agreed to, especially regarding the general topics and even specific questions that could be asked or discussed.

      I am very confident that not only was at least one PIO present off camera, but Gamble’s boss was also present very closely monitoring everything that was asked or said and they were prepared to step in and intervene at any moment. Think…North Korea without the prison camps, torture or being eaten alive by starved attack dogs for displeasing the regime.

      Gamble was prepped ahead of time by both the PIO and his boss. Gamble knows who is depositing a paycheck in his name at his bank 26 times a year and he knows he is pretty low in the food chain. Getting his current job was a big break for him and he knows it and keeping his job is his number one priority in life right now. The GMIHC are gone and he knows he can’t bring them back or make it hurt less.

      Now you can argue that Ruelas professional ethics as a news reporter or journalist should have precluded him from agreeing to those preconditions, which if he hadn’t agreed to them, there wouldn’t have been an interview or story period, but that is another topic entirely.

      But there is no doubt in my mind that Gamble was not free to talk, he has full time employment, he gets to be home on a regular basis and he had benefits, like a retirement package of some sort even in this day and age of war on the former middle class, and health insurance, which thanks to the Affordable Care Act is probably pretty good.

      Which brings up a point I have hinted at, but I have never said outright. Why have I spent so much time talking about my retirement benefits, politics, marital status (as in married to an attractive woman who makes more money than I do and is a lot smarter than I am) the seat I had at the table were discussions were held at the highest levels of the agency I worked for to cover problems up (not because of corruption or bribes necessarily, but just because everybody likes it when there are no problems, like the politicians and even the public so the special interest groups who are connected can operate freely without any pesky oversight) and my years (30 years in a system that considered 20 years full retirement) of service?

      It’s very simple really (other than I like to brag) and most of you have probably already figured it out. I don’t want to be pegged as a lonely, bitter, angry, loser in the game of life. I really do care about other people, not more than myself, but because I have all I need plus a little more, I can afford to be concerned about others.

      For example, others like Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and 17 more Granite Mountain Hotshots who were mostly kids and who deserved to do all the same kinds of things I have done with my life, have the opportunity to see the things I have seen and have a chance to have the same kinds of experiences I had. And so now I can look back and truthfully say without regret, it was one a hellavu ride. And if I had it to do all over again…I would, except I would try harder to get it right next time!

      Reply

      • Exactly.

        And what you wrote dove-tails with something I’ve been wondering.

        It SOUNDS LIKE AZDF is inviting the Blue Ridge Hotshots et al to speak freely.

        I wonder how real that invitation is.

        If Holly Neill is as interested as we are in Ronnie Gamble’s video (which she most certainly is), have both of them REALLY, just been invited to get together and have a nice little chat about that?

        Reply

          • Oops. I forgot. Today is the first day of my announced retirement from this job.

            But, then, you’re on sabbatical, also.

            Salud!

            Reply

            • Marti,

              I have taught you everything I know…and still you don’t know anything (tongue in cheek, hee, hee, just kidding, so on and so forth).

              NO…it makes absolutely no difference whatsoever to the United States Department Of Agriculture – Forest Service what AZDF wants, thinks, cares about, doesn’t want, or either isn’t smart enough or know or smart enough to think about.

              The USDA-Forest Service, more specifically the attorneys representing them, don’t care about you or me, or anyone else, or any other group, the Blue Ridge Hotshots, or any other individual federal employee or the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, the fact that they are dead, how or why they died, their families or the TRUTH…period, end of story.

              These attorney’s work for the USDA Office of the Solicitor General, they are bound by ethics, regulations, laws, policies and their individual job descriptions to care about only ONE thing. And that ONE thing is the best interests of their CLIENT, the USDA-Forest Service as an AGENCY, and by extension, the federal government itself and the American people as a whole.

              They will do anything (that’s legal and ethical by the loose standards that govern the behavior of attorneys) and that includes cutting the throats (figuratively speaking) of ANYONE who threatens or could possibly threaten in the future in any way conceivable the best interests of their clients…you and me.

              They will never lift that gag order or tell you, me or anyone else what they know, because that would not be in the best interests of their client. For starters, they would lose their jobs, their licenses to practice law and maybe even be prosecuted. And you should not interpret that gag order as an indicator that they know anything, or there is anything to hide, that is standard protocol that is ALWAYS implemented just as a matter of Standard Operating Procedure, it always happens. I have had a lot of gag orders put on me, anyone would have to have their permission to ever talk to me and they never give permission. I keep telling everyone on this thread you have no idea what dealing with, fighting or challenging the federal government in anyway that threatens them is like, what it will mean to you and your happiness in the long run (or short run).

              The only time you can get them to do anything, is when the behavior was so outrageous and that almost always involves a deliberate, brazen, malicious, violation of the United States Constitution or by acts the violated the U.S. Constitution that were so stupid, not just regular stupid, but think…criminally stupid, that they decide to take themselves to the woodshed for a spanking…and then they will give you permission to go after an individual(s). Don’t you ever watch the news (tongue in cheek, hee, hee), the only people who ever go to prison are the whistleblowers, not the wrongdoers.

              Reply

              • Let me see if I can shorten that answer…the attorneys who work for the government are no different than attorneys who worked for Enron, WorldCom, Tyco, HealthSouth, Freddie Mac, Lehman Brothers, Bernie Madoff, AIG or Exon after the Exon Valdez spilled all of that oil in the Gulf of Alaska.

                Just think about how they represented their clients, the government attorneys represent all of us in the same way. It’s just what they do.

                Reply

                • Oh…and one more thing, I have given up on my sabbatical, I have discovered I am a serial blogger.

                  Plus, I can’t expect others to keep going when I am not willing to do the same thing. In addition, believe it or not, I keep learning things that should be put in my Yarnell Hill Fire chapter, nothing that you don’t know about or really earth shaking (since the info about the Clear Creek Fire, which was earth shaking to me) but little things that all add up…to little WTF…Over? moments.

                  Reply

              • Thanks Gary!

                I was hoping you would substantiate my suspicions.

                Remember, my dad was the chief meteorologist for the atmospheric nuclear weapons testing program.

                Which is why I thought it was weird that AZDF and the lawyers were saying that.

                Reply

                • Of course I had picked up your dad was a meteorologist, but not THAT meteorologist, they wrote one of the books on keeping secrets and not really worrying about the public in general, or what they think or want to know…trust us, we know what’s best for you.

                  Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on July 1, 2015 at 6:14 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> Based on my experience that interview was set up by the Prescott Fire
        >> Department and or the City of Prescott Public Information Officer or the
        >> equivalent and there were preconditions that Ruelas agreed to, especially
        >> regarding the general topics and even specific questions that could be
        >> asked or discussed.
        >>
        >> I am very confident that not only was at least one PIO present off
        >> camera, but Gamble’s boss was also present very closely monitoring
        >> everything that was asked or said and they were prepared to step in
        >> and intervene at any moment. Think…North Korea without the prison
        >> camps, torture or being eaten alive by starved attack dogs for
        >> displeasing the regime.

        Once again, Gary… you have “nailed it from your living room”.

        There is no direct mention in the article of the “powers that be” sitting just off-camera… but there IS a photo that accompanies the article itself which proves that was the case.

        Again… that interview with former Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronnie Gamble ( the one who is assumed to have shot the infamous YARNELL-GAMBLE video ) is here…

        AZCENTRAL
        Article Title: Crew continues work started by fallen Arizona firefighters
        Published: 4:50 p.m. EDT June 30, 2015 by Richard Ruelas, The Arizona Republic
        http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2015/06/30/yarnell-hill-fire-anniversary/29508705/

        At the BOTTOM of the article is a photograph of the “field trip’ that the reporter took with Gamble out to a site that had been worked on by Gamble and his “Fuels Crew”.

        Standing right next to Gamble in the photo ( in the distance ) is Gambles direct supervisor, new Prescott Fire Department ‘Community Interface’ Division Chief Don Devendorf.

        Here is the full caption on that photo at the bottom of the article…

        —————————————————————-
        Prescott Fire Department’s division chief, Don Devendorf, left; and Ronnie Gamble, fuels reduction coordinator, look at an area they cleared of brush April 22, 2015, in Prescott, Ariz. A crew of three now works out of the Granite Mountain Hotshot station doing fuels management. (Photo: Michael Chow, The Arizona Republic)
        —————————————————————–

        So even though Prescott Fire Division Chief Don Devendorf does NOT appear in the VIDEO that accompanies the article… there is NO DOUBT that he was standing just off camera the whole time and breathing down the reporter’s neck.

        It’s actually odd that he ( Devendorf and any other Prescott PIOs that were lurking around for this interview ) would have even let reporter Ruelas MENTION that Ronnie Gamble was a former Blue Ridge Hotshot… and that he was THERE in Yarnell that fateful day.

        I can imagine the ‘negotiations’ with AZCENTRAL and reporter Ruelas went something like this…

        —————————————————————
        ( Reporter Richard Ruelas ): Okay… I get it… I can’t ask this Gamble guy ANYTHING about Yarnell or that YARNELL-GAMBLE video he seems to have taken… but the people at InvestigativeMEDIA found out MONTHS ago that this IS the same “Ronald Gamble” who was there in Yarnell as a Blue Ridge Hotshot on June 30, 2013, and that he’s the one who shot that YARNELL-GAMBLE video with Eric Marsh clearly saying, at exactly 4:27 PM ( in the middle of a supposed communications blackout ), “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

        So my BYLINE for the story itself is that he IS that guy… and that he WAS part of Blue Ridge who saved Brendan McDonough’s ass that day.

        So if I can’t at least mention that he WAS a Blue Ridge Hotshot and that he WAS there in Yarnell on June 30… and now there he is working for YOU and trying not to step on those black tiles Eric Marsh put down… then the whole deal is off.

        You will NOT get your little FREE ‘commercial’ for this new brush clearing deal you have going there in Prescott if I can’t at least mention he WAS one of the Blue Ridge Hotshots in Yarnell.
        ———————————————————————–

        So (perhaps) the Prescott PIO’s caved.

        They agreed to just at least let Ruelas ‘mention’ that this Gamble guy WAS a Blue Ridge Hotshot… so Ruelas could at least “tie that in” for an interesting BYLINE and a better STORY.

        Heck… the Prescott PIOS ( and/or Devendorf ) might have been already perfectly aware that we proved months ago right here on this forum that he IS the same Ronald Gamble who was with the Blue Ridge Hotshots on June 30, 2013… now coming to work every day for the Prescott Fire Department.

        So what the heck… just let Ruelas mention THAT… but under NO circumstances could there be any questions about what else Ronnie Gamble heard circa 4:27 PM in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.

        Actually… am I the only one who is just cynical enough to think that the very reason Ronald Gamble IS now sitting right there in Eric Marsh’s old office is because the Prescott Fire Department thought it would be a good idea to have him there where they can keep their ‘eye’ on him… and continue to CONTROL what he says?

        Is it REALLY just some gigantic coincidence that the guy who MIGHT know who was telling Eric Marsh to “Hurry up” in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 is now coming to work every day and sitting in Eric Marsh’s old office?

        Reply

  26. BREAKING!!!!!

    IN OTHER NEWZZZZZZZZ

    So the State won the auction for the site.
    ————————————–

    State wins land auction for Yarnell memorial

    3 hours ago • The Associated Press0
    PRESCOTT, Ariz. (AP) — The site where 19 Arizona firefighters died battling a wind-driven blaze will become a memorial park.

    The Arizona State Parks won a public auction Tuesday for the 320 acres near Yarnell where the Granite Mountain Hotshots were overrun by flames exactly two years ago. One crew member who was at another site serving as the lookout survived.

    State Parks Director Sue Black was the sole bidder in the auction held at the Yavapai County Courthouse plaza. She held up her bidding card, which she turned from a “1” to a “19” when the auction began, agreeing to pay the fair market value of $304,000.

    Family and friends of the Hotshots cheered and hugged one another when Black was declared the winner.

    http://tucson.com/news/state-and-regional/state-wins-land-auction-for-yarnell-memorial/article_f5932200-1f76-11e5-829a-1b6b9548913c.html

    So that’s good news. I’m feeling 20% better.

    Reply

    • Of course… the $196,000 dollar question NOW is…

      What happens to the other $196,000 dollars?

      The Arizona State Legislature allocated $500,000 for the purchase of the land.

      How that money became immediately ( and directly ) available to “Arizona State Parks” so they could actually “do the bidding” themselves today is a bit of a ‘backroom’ mystery… but regardless… what happens now to the part of the allocation they did NOT have to spend?

      Does ‘Arizona Parks’ get to use the extra $196,000 to help pay for better ‘access rights’ to the site, or to begin to deal with “handicap access”, or (perhaps) it gets to be applied to the site design and infrastructure development costs?…

      …or do they have to turn the extra $196,000 back over to the State and everything that happens from this point on still has to be done with ‘donations’?

      I suppose if this PUBLIC “Arizona State sponsored Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” ever starts obeying Arizona LAW and publishing the minutes to all of their PUBLIC meetings… we might find that out.

      Reply

      • “Does ‘Arizona Parks’ get to use the extra $196,000 to help pay for better ‘access rights’ to the site, or to begin to deal with “handicap access”, or (perhaps) it gets to be applied to the site design and infrastructure development costs?…:

        Well, given that I wasn’t sure how they were going to pay even for that trail that was in that Plan, I’m guessing that they must have been hoping (or something) they would have enough money left over from the purchase to do that.

        Or maybe wave that money in front of Maughan™ (and maybe even Helms™) to get him/them to back down and open up his/their rights-o-wayz to make it easier for the public to access that site?

        “…or do they have to turn the extra $196,000 back over to the State and everything that happens from this point on still has to be done with ‘donations’?”

        I just don’t know. Twill be interesting.

        OTOH, from this point forward, AZ State Parks has their own budgets to do what AZ State Parks does with AZ State Parks. Even though AZ has been seriously negligent in funding AZ State Parks, that has resulted in AZ State Parks getting increasingly creative in finding monies to do what they decide they need to do.

        And there’s this little thingy in my mind regarding some memory that Yavapai County has taken upon themselves some commitment to some kind of “maintenance” of the site. But I’m currently too braindead (after spending the past two days researching the legal details of Friday’s Supreme Court Decision regarding Marriage Equality and the challenges to it) to go looking for that little thingy in my mind. And, to be honest, that might have nothing to do with what we are talking about, generally speaking.

        All I have to say is that it will be quite interesting to see how this evolves.

        “suppose if this PUBLIC “Arizona State sponsored Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” ever starts obeying Arizona LAW and publishing the minutes to all of their PUBLIC meetings… we might find that out.”

        Totally agree. WTF is this all about???

        Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 30, 2015 at 8:59 pm

          >> Marti Reed said…
          >>
          >> All I have to say is that it will be quite interesting to
          >> see how this evolves.

          Yes… but you already said it yourself.

          Amidst what has been a very confusing 48 hours full of ‘announcements’ ( which I had a feeling were all going to POP at once )… the news that Arizona State Parks really does now OWN the land ( forever ) is really a GOOD piece of news.

          It still just hurts my brain to think what would have happened if people who have already quoted the Bible and Leviticus for why any ‘psychic’ or ‘medium’ should be BANNED from ever even just visiting the site might have gotten ahold of that deployment site.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> “suppose if this PUBLIC “Arizona State sponsored Yarnell Hill
          >> Memorial Site Board” ever starts obeying Arizona LAW and
          >> publishing the minutes to all of their PUBLIC meetings… we
          >> might find that out.”
          >>
          >> Totally agree. WTF is this all about???

          Don’t forget that the absolute FIRST order of business that this ‘Yarnell Hill Site Board’ did when they FIRST got together for their FIRST meeting was to immediately go into ‘Executive Session’ to consult with the lawyers about whether they ( as a bona-fide Arizona PUBLIC Board ) had to pay any attention to this pesky LAW stuff and either allow the public to attend any meetings.

          We still don’t know what was actually said ( or by who ) during that FIRST ‘Executive Session’… but since the public HAS been invited to all subsequent meetings it’s pretty safe to say they ‘lawyers’ responded to the ‘Board’ in that Executive Session with something like…

          “Yes. You DO have to provide proper PUBLIC notice for your little meetings and you DO have invite the PUBLIC. That’s the BAD news. The WORSE news is that you really do also have to allow for ‘public comment’ at any of these meetings. I know you’d rather just do whatever the fuck you want and not have to have anything to do with the PUBLIC… but that’s not what this is all about.”

          So yea… the fact that they ( the Board ) aren’t paying attention to Arizona Law with regards to posting the ‘agendas’ and the ‘minutes’ according to the required timeframes is no surprise.

          It’s sort of like the attitude of a lot of FFs and FF agencies have with regards to “the public” ( the people who actually pay their salaries ).

          “Just give us ALL the money we want… and go away and leave us alone”.

          Reply

          • “Just give us ALL the money we want… and go away and leave us alone”.

            And “BWAHAHAHAHA” with all your pesky little conspiracy theories!

            Reply

  27. I confess.

    After reading WTKTT’s postings here regarding the settlement (and THANK YOU WTKTT for posting them), and doing a bit more looking around, I have just been too numb and disgusted and disheartened and cognitively dissonanced (and trying to re-convince myself over and over again that I haven’t wasted a large chunk of my past year and a half — including while my mom was dying — working on this quest for THE TRUTH (CT™) …

    … to even want to THINK about this FIRE™ and this ANNIVERSARY™ today.

    The first words that came to mind were:

    “Nothing to see here, move along”

    “OK”

    Rinse Repeat Rinse Repeat Rinse Repeat

    My next thought (and I was actually going to post this) was:

    “I really really can’t think of anything more to say.”

    And I was going to just post that and walk away, for I don’t know how long, which you all know where that’s coming from.

    ——————————————————————-

    And then I remembered this. From June 30, 2014.

    That KPHO story/video

    “State keeping Yarnell Hill Fire secrets, say critics”
    Posted: Jun 30, 2014 6:13 PM MDT
    By Morgan Loew

    It’s the story that features our very favorite law professor.

    But it also features Scott McKee, Grant McKee’s father.
    ————————————————-

    “”There’s a lot of things that had been withheld and lied about, and you cannot lie to somebody about how their child died,” said Scott McKee, whose son, Grant, was killed on the mountain that day.

    McKee believes state forestry officials know more than they have disclosed about what happened.”

    http://www.kpho.com/story/25909911/state-keeping-yarnell-hill-fire-secrets-say-critics

    This actually fits in with the conversation below about Investigations™ in the era of “Lessons Learned™”.

    So, I guess what Scott McKee said “you cannot lie to somebody about how their child died,” is really about all I have to say.

    Except for this addition:

    I wonder where Scott McKee went?

    Reply

      • And still not one single comment from ANYONE on the Gabbert article even though the comment box is fully engaged.

        Sometimes Gabbert posts something and he turns the comment option OFF. That is not the case with this posting of his about the settlement.

        There are simply NO COMMENTS from his readership.

        Zero. Zip. Nada.

        If you know his Wildfire Today site… that qualifies as VERY unusual.

        Reply

    • “You can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make it drink.”

      Good luck, Wildland Firefighters!!

      My Number One “Lessons Learned™” lesson learned from the Yarnell Hill Wildfire.

      By lightyears.

      Reply

        • Also when you see Roxanne speak and holding Billy-

          that’s why I do it-
          the innocence of a child who one day may want to know the truth of why daddy is not here…

          Also let us all regroup and remember what Gary wrote even though comes off harsh—it is an unjust how it was done and yes where is McKee’s dad this anniversary?

          Reply

          • “that’s why I do it-
            the innocence of a child who one day may want to know the truth of why daddy is not here…”

            I love you, “The Hikers says” !

            And tomorrow, after I recover from this funk, I will email you.

            Namaste

            Reply

  28. I am sure me or anyone else on this board could write the Lessons Learned script.

    Follow the 10 and 18.
    Fight fire based on actual and predicted fire behaviour
    Have a lookout in place at all times
    Ensure communications are in place with command staff, who have the ability to veto a stupid plan.
    One NO is a no-go!!! If your gut says its a bad idea, it probably is.
    Don’t risk your own personal well being (life) in order to save some scrub shit brush or a community that is not defendable.
    DON’T TRY TO BE A FRIGGIN HERO!!! Think of your family when you decide to do a risky move and reflect on how it could affect them for the rest of their lives…

    Feel free to tag on and extend more lessons…

    Oh, I forgot…
    When doing an investigation, do a thorough, complete job, holding nothing back and/or worrying about hurting feelings .or pointing fingers where fingers need to be pointed. Open, honest true investigation….

    Reply

    • We need a cool acronym that would make it easy to remember….

      LACES…
      Lookouts
      Anchor Points
      Communications
      Escape Routes
      Safety Zones…

      OH WAIT, we already have that… too bad they did not use it…

      Reply

    • Reply to rocksteady post on June 30, 2015 at 2:30 pm

      >> rocksteady said…
      >>
      >> Follow the 10 and 18.
      >> Fight fire based on actual and predicted fire behaviour
      >> Have a lookout in place at all times
      >> Ensure communications are in place with command staff, who
      >> have the ability to veto a stupid plan.

      Here’s an idea… those absolute ‘common sense’ rules should be codified by the industry, and published in some kind of ‘pocket guide’ that can be carried by all WFFs to remind them that these are some of the BASE RULES of their profession that MUST be followed at all times.

      Oops. I forgot. Already done LONG before June 30, 2013.

      >> rocksteady also said…
      >>
      >> When doing an investigation, do a thorough, complete job, holding nothing
      >> back and/or worrying about hurting feelings .or pointing fingers where
      >> fingers need to be pointed. Open, honest true investigation….

      As far as I know… there are still no PUBLIC copies of the actual ‘settlement’ documents… so it’s hard to say for sure what is actually in them ( or not in them )… but so far what seems astounding is that there has been NO MENTION of the “investigation process” and what CHANGES Arizona Forestry intends to make there.

      There is still absolutely NO QUESTION that Arizona Forestry conducted ( via contractors ) one of the most worthless fire fatality investigations in history.

      That is still the “elephant in the room”.

      There is still every chance of more fatal accidents that will NOT kick in either the USFS or the Inspector General’s office on the investigations. That ONLY happens ( automatically and by law ) if a Federal employee is one of the dead or injured.

      So what about future Arizona Forestry investigations into injuries and death?

      Is it just going to be ‘rinse and repeat’?

      Publish BULLSHIT, hope ADOSH doesn’t come snooping around and that no one sues… but if they do… just fight all that off like its junkyard dog yapping at your heels?

      If the families did NOT address this part of the whole ‘tragedy’… and make it a REQUIREMENT that future incidents are ‘better investigated’…

      …then, in essence, they just wasted all that time and energy.

      Other families WILL still have to go through what they just went through… and the same people who are spouting “Brotherhood forever” and “We must take care of the families no matter what” will still be the same people who will sick their free Arizona Attorney General’s office lawyers on your ass if you dare to ask any questions like “What really happened”?

      Reply

      • Here’s an idea… those absolute ‘common sense’ rules should be codified by the industry, and published in some kind of ‘pocket guide’ that can be carried by all WFFs to remind them that these are some of the BASE RULES of their profession that MUST be followed at all times.

        reply:
        or tattoo it on their arms so when their sleeves are rolled up they have it right there on their arm…kidding…long day and I am hearing from all areas from loved ones of the gmhs to homeowners to just depressed people plus long day at hospital…plus I am sad because just so many things and I GET the litigations and predicted it but Craig Knapp said June 29th 9:20pm he stated “Don’t worry. I will not settle for 50k per family. The State knows that, I’ve litigated against them many times. The appeals will be filed.” So I will continue on doing the needed research still. What else…just too much information coming at me WRONG DAY is all…Carrie Dennett no longer handles public records for Arizona State Forestry. How do I challenge the incomplete FOIA interview on the hikers…PUBLIC and authors DO NOT USE THEIR INCOMPLETE INTERVIEW ON US or you will put out misinformation like Dickman did- my plate is too full but I will get the records of that interview we had and I already KNOW it does not match what I read today..WTF????

        I have too much information coming in…just wrong time,,
        I can tell you this for the homeowners and some of the folks we met of the GMHS I will continue to get you pieces to the puzzle…I am very understanding to comments Gary made today and I totally hope we can as a Investigative Media team finally piece it together…who cares if 2 investigative reports did an injustice and who cares of the lawyers and Forestry feel the way they do…I was on those Weavers…I know that terrain. I know more details than I have yet spoken because of the confidentiality level of the folks and THEY NEED TO SPEAK UP— I have one enough speaking up…It is YOUR TIME to speak up…

        Reply

      • Without some kind of version of “10s and 18s” for Wildfire Management, I don’t think anything provided here will make one IOTA of a difference.

        Seriously.

        It wasn’t rolled up sleeves that got the Granite Mountain Hotshots killed.

        It was a plan agreed to and co-implemented by the effective first-in-command Operations Supervisor, at that time, on that fire, possibly initiated by a Division Supervisor (who also happened, normally, to be the Supervisor of the Granite Mountain Hotshots), which, given the timing and circumstances of the implementation of that plan, was an extremely dangerous last-ditch hail mary plan…………

        ………..that got the Granite Mountain Hotshots killed.

        And if somebody doesn’t like that…………

        ………feel FREE to prove me wrong.

        Reply

        • Regarding the 10s and 18s for Wildland Fire Management.

          There IS something that addresses this, and it’s Safety Matters and their June 2014 “Safety Matters Forum Briefing.”

          http://ffsafetymatters.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/SMBriefingFINALnoCOV.pdf

          I remembered this when I was posting upstream about Holly Neill. It’s something I’ve been meaning to mention but just hadn’t gotten a Round Tuit.

          The people involved in Safety Matters are some of the people who wrote the report for the ADOSH investigation. Here’s part of what they say in their briefing:
          ———————————————————-

          “A year has passed since the deaths of 19 firefighters on the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona. Another fire season is now underway. The agencies managing wildland fire have not made any significant changes to existing procedures, nor have they announced any plans for procedural or policy updates for the future. This reflects the apparent perception that the existing system is working as well as can be expected. Safety Matters disagrees.

          The mission of wildland firefighters has never been clearly stated or understood. The public, elected officials, agency managers and firefighters themselves not only interpret the mission differently, but their perception changes if the situation becomes dire. Firefighter and public safety is continually stated to be the highest priority by all agencies involved in wildland fire. Safety Matters does not believe this statement is always put into practice.

          The following pages illustrate topics where we feel firefighter safety could not only be improved, but that this could largely be accomplished by changing existing procedures with potentially minimal cost. These topics are not intended to be the comprehensive fix, but instead highlight some of the existing safety deficiencies in the system.

          Safety Matters has identified the following areas in need of immediate change, in order to provide for maximum firefighter safety. They include:

           A benefit analysis of values at risk (homes, private property, public lands) vs. the risk to firefighter’s lives.

          Development of an independent investigative body for serious accidents and fatalities.

           Direct involvement of agency administrators and program managers, especially when fires escape initial attack and incident management teams are mobilizing or in transition.

           Establishing standardized emergency communications protocol.

           Establishing uniformity in mapping systems.”

          Of course, they have been essentially stonewalled by the US Forest Service, the National Wildfire Co-ordinating Group, and the Department of the Interior.

          Wait, why would I say that “of course” they’ve been stonewalled?

          Think about that.

          They’ve presented totally solid, evidence-based recommendations for increasing wildland fire-fighter safety and they’ve been completely stone-walled.

          You can see that for yourself on their website. They have their correspondence with the above-mentioned agencies posted there.

          Reply

          • You can make the 10 and 18’s, standard operating guidelines and procedures, acronyms for people to remember safety tricks(LACES), however it will all be for not if the personnel feel that its “hillbilly guidance”.

            Young fire fighters seem to think they are immortal, invincible and sterile… I don’t know if its a macho thing or trying to fit into a crew that may have been described as “hard asses”…

            Until all of the rules are followed, to a “t”, fire fighters will still perish…

            Unfortunately…

            Reply

      • “If the families did NOT address this part of the whole ‘tragedy’… and make it a REQUIREMENT that future incidents are ‘better investigated’…

        …then, in essence, they just wasted all that time and energy.”

        Exactly.

        Reply

    • Amen.

      Also it was very pleasant to hear Roxanne and Debra speak today.
      Thank you for the links WWTKTT!

      Sonny says fifteen million+ donated for the loved ones of the GMHS- add one million to make the state memorial park a training center for current and future firefighters.

      Save lives from those lost.

      I am finally back to try and upload the information but last time the legion did not work—plus Sonny had rough day and he is on a barley diet for the moment to kill or ease the pain at the legion

      Reply

      • Please tell Sonny, from the bottom of my heart, if you have to transport yourself inside of you mind to a really awesome and beautiful place far away from all of this insanity, in order to allow yourself to heal…….

        ……..just do it. You are needed.

        Reply

      • “add one million to make the state memorial park a training center for current and future firefighters.”

        I totally agree. Does anybody have any idea how to make that happen?

        State Parks just paid about $300K for the land. (Thank you, Maughan™ and The Widows.Inc for not getting in the way of that).

        That means they have about $200K left in their coffers. They’ll need that for putting in that (possibly inadequate, all things considered) 3 mile hardcorely uphill trail into the site.

        Come on, Maughan™, give it up, already!

        I don’t see where any kind of funding for anything more than just making the site “visitable” is. OTOH I don’t see where that kind of funding has been necessary for the Storm King site to have been made really really useful for teaching the things that fire needed to teach.

        I’m just really really really glad, sitting here at my computer tonight, after the dismal news about the settlement, that Arizona State Parks was able to grab hold of that section of hallowed land with no contest. That speaks a few volumes to me.

        Reply

  29. Mr. Shitsack said, “All of that, in addition to the two reports that have been issued, have been subject, nationwide, to theorists… to conspiracists… to who killed Martin Luther King… and right now, for the families, in THIS litigation, their concern, and their singular concern, was working with Jeff ( Whitney ), and working with Mark, and working with Governor Ducey to get in an optimal position so they can have a modicum of peace and understanding.”

    I don’t know about the rest of you people (conspiracy theorists like me), but I take great satisfaction in knowing that Mr. Shitsack has been reading our not so little blog and there is no doubt in my mind that he is still reading it to evaluate our response to his ridiculous lies and assorted bullshit.

    Therefore, I am proud to announce one more time for the public record to be memorialized here for as long as there is an internet and John Dougherty doesn’t hit the delete button, that I, Gary L. Olson do hereby state and affirm that according to my information and belief that Pat McGroder is without a doubt a certified Grade A Extra Large Shitsack, further your affiant sayeth not, on this date June 30, in the year of our Lord, 2015.

    Reply

  30. This Arizona settlement is baffling me. It is nothing for the families. I hope all the other monies from pensions and other settlements meet their needs because the State of Arizona sure isn’t looking after them. Donut should be ashamed of himself for keeping his mouth shut along with a lot of other firefighters that terrible day.

    Reply

    • John—Have you herd or seen anything about this 32 point settlement agreement that the State is going to respond to. It seems some one should have asked what it is and will it be released to the public.

      That seems to be the settling point on part of the Lessons learned.
      The Families were never fully vested in the money settlement as much as to the truth they still may get that as there is some indication of more information to come.

      My information from a family member said they also had a considerable amount of info the Lawyers had found that was new and not in any investigation. So I am sure there was a lot of pressure being put on by the Families Attorneys to pressure the State. to tell all in this Lessons learned even without Naming Names.

      I hope we have more to come here from the State.

      Reply

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 30, 2015 at 1:52 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> My information from a family member said they also had a
        >> considerable amount of info the Lawyers had found that was
        >> new and not in any investigation.

        I certainly hope, after all this time the lawyers spent on this, that that is the case.

        Any word from your sources whether the families are now under some kind of ‘gag’ order to NOT TALK ABOUT what they may have heard / learned… or they don’t get the money?

        >> Bob Powers also said…
        >>
        >> I hope we have more to come here from the State.

        Yes… but from the FAMILIES, too.

        I hope we just aren’t entering a ‘new phase’ here where everything that IS known, but not public yet, is all tied up with ‘gag’ orders related to settlement sums.

        What would be great, at this point, is if the families themselves would now hold their OWN press conference… and allow a long Q/A session… and be allowed to tell the ‘story’ of the negotiations themselves and what THEY might now know about how their loved ones died.

        Reply

        • Followup…

          Actually… if the family members really did learn a lot more than has ever been released to the public during the course of these court proceedings and negotiations… but also had to agree NOT TO TALK as part of the settlement…

          I actually hope some ( or all ) of them remain true to their word that it was “never about the money”… that it was always about TRUTH and CHANGE… and just come out and talk. anyway, about all the things they may now know that Arizona Forestry still doesn’t want them talking about.

          Look at it this way.

          If all they are getting is a measly $50,000… then which is going to stand the better chance of “saving other firefighter’s lives in the future”?

          – Keeping their mouths shut about what they now know and just donating the $50K to the Arizona Wildfire Academy for ‘scholarships’, or something else just as mundane?

          – OR saying “the heck with the $50K… here’s what really happened and here’s what all other firefighters can now actually learn from this tragedy”?

          My pick would be “door number two”.

          Reply

          • I wish they would offer me $50,000 minus court costs, attorneys fees and taxes (?) to quit posting on this blog, I would love to tell them to roll that check up into a little ball and stick it…well, you know the rest.

            If I was in the same room with someone who offered me that amount of money (or any amount of money without the other demands being met) to go away for the death of my child in one the most horrible ways imaginable due to the complete incompetence and negligence of their employees (Marsh and Steed worked for the state on that fire), it would be a really, really ugly scene, I shit you not!

            Reply

            • Reply to Gary Olson post June 30, 2015 at 8:11 pm

              >> Gary Olson said…
              >>
              >> I wish they would offer me $50,000 minus court
              >> costs, attorneys fees and taxes (?) to quit posting
              >> on this blog,

              That is actually a ‘spot on’ summation of what happened with this ‘settlement’.

              The ‘settlement’ has essentially said…

              “Here’s a lousy $50,000 and some vague promises. Now quit trying to find out what really happened”.

              Yes, I know, there is this mysterious “Lessons Learned” document that’s supposed to magically appear ( written by WHO? )… and Whitney has promised to try and get ‘staff ride’ going ( whoopee shit… that was going to happen no matter what ) and also promised some kind of vague Q/A ‘get togethers’ at undetermined times and under undetermined circumstances…

              …. and Yes, I know, McGroder’s mantra during the press conference was “We are comfortable with the promises made by Mr. Whitney”…

              But I still think the ultimate goal on the Arizona Forestry side was to just make sure no one was ever going to be called to any kind of witness stand. That was ( and still is ) their ‘worst nightmare’.

              >> Gary Olson also said…
              >>
              >> I would love to tell them to roll that check up into a
              >> little ball and stick it…well, you know the rest.

              And to continue what I think is your ‘spot on’ analogy of what has happened here.. the equivalent moment for the familes would have been…

              “It isn’t about the money. It’s about the TRUTH. Thank you for the offer but we will see you in court… and guess what?… it really ISN’T about the money and we don’t even care if we LOSE. What we need to know ( and what everyone still needs to know, firefighters included ) will come out DURING the trial.”

              That didn’t happen… and that’s too bad.

              Win or lose… the ‘families’ just ‘gave up’ the best ‘instrument’ they had for getting what they actually wanted.

              Reply

    • Reply to John post on June 30, 2015 at 1:22 pm

      >> John said…
      >>
      >> This Arizona settlement is baffling me. It is nothing for the families.

      Correct. Basically pittance on the financial side and ( apparently ) nothing but vague ‘promises’ from Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney.

      Whitney has ( apparently ) promised to just “meet with the families somewhere, sometime, somehow, maybe a staff ride, maybe not” and “answer their questions”.

      Seriously?

      Is this actually CODIFIED in the agreements?

      Are there any sanctions or penalites if Whitney just keeps his answering machine on saying “I’m sorry… I’m out of the office right now. Please leave your name and number and I’ll get back to you as soon as I can”?

      I seriously hope this “promise” that attorney for the plaintiffs Patrick McGroder kept referring back to like it was a MANTRA during the press conference actually IS codified in the settlement somewhere… and isn’t just Whitney saying “Yea…. sure… I’ll talk to them sometime, somewhere”.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> I hope all the other monies from pensions and other settlements meet
      >> their needs because the State of Arizona sure isn’t looking after them.

      Correct… even though the Arizona Attorney General’s office lawyers who were assigned to the case(s) have admitted in their own documents filed in the case that there is NO QUESTION that ALL of the deceased were “working for them” at the time of their death.

      Lesson Learned: Think twice ( and three times and four times ) about ever doing ANY contract work for Arizona Forestry.

      >> John also said…
      >>
      >> Donut should be ashamed of himself for keeping his mouth shut along
      >> with a lot of other firefighters that terrible day.

      According to Brendan… it’s all about “man love”.

      It ( apparently? ) justifies his behavior in his own mind.

      Brendan McDonough is still describing his ‘occupation’ on his PUBLIC Facebook page as “Public Figure”, and he did his own home-grown version of a ‘press release’ today with ‘a statement’.

      https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=489455674554629

      Brendan said…
      ———————————————————–
      Facebook – June 30, 2013

      Not a day that’s doesn’t go by that I’m not reminded of my brothers. You did more for me than I could ever explain. No words can be said for how grateful and blessed I am to have you in my life. Your legacy continues to guide me spiritually, emotionally and physically. There’s no greater love than man love.
      ———————————————————–

      The PHOTO that accompanies this ‘statement’ is that one of himself and his GM crewmates forming that ‘pyramid’ near the Juniper Tree.

      Also doesn’t sound like the same guy who came crawling to Darrell Willis and said he couldn’t take the guilt of withholding crucial information from investigators anymore and he needed to “get something off his chest”.

      That was before the publicly announced book deal, of course.

      There are no more active court cases at the moment.

      And there probably won’t be unless the Property Damage lawsuit appeal overturns the Judge’s decision that Arizona Forestry never has one atomic molecule of duty or responsibility to protect any piece of property, at any time, anywhere.

      So there are no “constraints” whatsoever on Brendan McDonough now for simply speaking freely about what happened except the ‘financial’ ones he might have agreed to as part of the ‘book deal’.

      Reply

      • Correction for above. I typed the wrong YEAR on the date line.

        The Facebook ‘statement’ Brendan published is from TODAY, June 30, 2015, and
        not ‘2013’.

        The statement on his PUBLIC Facebook page actually reads like this…

        Brendan said…
        ———————————————————–
        Facebook – June 30, 2015

        Not a day that’s doesn’t go by that I’m not reminded of my brothers. You did more for me than I could ever explain. No words can be said for how grateful and blessed I am to have you in my life. Your legacy continues to guide me spiritually, emotionally and physically. There’s no greater love than man love.
        ———————————————————–

        Reply

  31. **
    ** DEPLOYMENT SITE SOLD TO ARIZONA STATE PARKS

    Disaster was avoided this morning. Arizona Parks was the ONLY bidder on the
    south half of Section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West where the Granite
    Mountain deployment site is located.

    They got the land for the ‘fair market value’ price of $304,000.

    And a good thing, too. That was actually the maximum amount Arizona State Parks was allowed ( by law ) to bid for that piece of land… and if anyone had bid the next valid increment of $314,000… they would have lost it.

    AZCENTRAL
    Yarnell fire anniversary: Site of future state park sold
    Published: 12 p.m. MST June 30, 2015 by Amy B. Wang
    http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/06/30/prescott-yarnell-hill-fire-hotshots-anniversary/29487645/

    From the article…
    ——————————————————
    The memorial activities Tuesday, on the second anniversary of the fire that killed the Granite Mountain Hotshots, began with an auction both significant and largely symbolic.

    At 11 a.m., representatives from the state Land Department gathered at the Yavapai County Courthouse in Prescott to offer a plot of land for sale. The 320-acre parcel encompasses the site where the 19 Prescott-based firefighters died in the Yarnell Hill fire.

    A representative from the state parks board selected the number 19 for her placard. When bidding opened at $304,000, she placed the first, and only, bid.

    The auctioneer read her number twice. Then, the deal was done.

    Because the land is owned by the state, it must, by law, be sold at public auction. But the winning bid guaranteed the spot would be preserved, as the future Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park.
    ——————————————————

    Reply

  32. **
    ** NEW YORK TIMES REPORT ON THE SETTLEMENT

    I’m still not seeing any public copies of the actual documents surrounding the ‘settlement’ that was publicly announced yesterday… but apparently someone at the New York Times has obtained copies of them and is reporting on things that are in them.

    Such as some kind of bizarre “We’re still not saying anybody did anything wrong… but boy did we screw up” section.

    The New York Times
    Arizona Settles Cases With Relatives of 19 Who Died Fighting Wildfire
    Published: JUNE 29, 2015 By FERNANDA SANTOS
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/30/us/arizona-reaches-settlements-with-kin-of-19-who-died-fighting-wildfire.html?_r=0

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————————-
    The agreements capped more than a year of discussions involving the families, their lawyer, forestry officials and the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health, which conducted an investigation that revealed the chaos in the hours before the firefighters’ deaths.

    While the pacts do not hold the forestry agency formally responsible for the deaths, they give the families some vindication with a critical assessment of the commanders’ decision making.

    According to one of the settlements, the commanders “failed to re-evaluate, re-prioritize and update fire suppression strategies and plans after fire behavior and weather conditions dramatically changed,” exposing firefighters to “serious hazards” posed by fierce, fast-moving flames. They mostly left the firefighters to fend for themselves as an approaching thunderstorm pushed the fire their way.
    ———————————————————————————-

    Reply

    • Shades of the ADOSH.

      Seems to me the two main factors that haven’t been covered yet are 1) the human factors most recently summarized by you and Gary and others, that imo there’s no way will get covered frankly in a lessons-learned doc (not even the “learn to speak when spoken to” review that is an objectively know fact with big behavioral and communication implications), and 2) better time trials on rate of travel. For this 2) on the one hand getting some true harder numbers for various types of vegetation and inclines up and down could be useful for others, but on the other hand, but for this fire it would likely be a distraction imo. Better to have someone else do this in a neutral context. Reason being, with the existing weather and other variables that we now know were known, imo it was known at the time the descent began that this would be a close one. The human factors that led to a decision to do something where danger was already recognized, while leaving a position of much greater safety, are the keys here, along with the original hiring policies and decisions in establishing the crew.

      Reply

        • >> Gary Olson asked…
          >>
          >> What does imo stand for?

          IMO = “In My Opinion”
          IMHO = “In My Humble Opinion”

          It’s just DOCOMO text shorthand stuff.

          DOCOMO = Where ‘texting’ came from. Started in Japan. They were the first ones to notice there were ’empty packets’ in the standard digitial cellphone protocol and they found a way to fit characters into the packets and so ‘texting’ was born… but they could only fit about 140 characters.

          That’s why you don’t need a ‘data plan’ with your cellphone just to do texting. Unlike email and stuff ( which is Internet stuff and needs a data connection ), DOCOMO ‘texting’ fits into the same packets being used to do the voice transmissions.

          Sorry… more than you wanted to know, I’m sure.

          Lifelong habit. Ask me what time it is and I tend to try to tell you how to build a watch.

          Reply

          • No, actually, it wasn’t more than I wanted to know, I am trying to figure this stuff out as I go along, I have really trying to figure out the hash tag thing, but…

            Reply

            • Well then… speaking of ‘hash tags’…

              Until ‘Twitter’ came along that was just known as the ‘pound sign’ on your keyboard.

              The REASON that ‘Twitter’ is like ‘Texting’ and only allows a minimal amount of ‘characters’ in any one message is because the whole frickin’ Twitter codebase thing is nothing but a failed programming project that was based on ( you guessed it ) ‘cellphone texting’.

              Once the whole orgininal ‘Twitter’ project turned into a disaster and was about to go into the toilet… somebody decided to do their own “Hail Mary’ play with the codebase and just bring it up on ‘regular Internet’.

              Lo and behold ( Whooda thunk it )… they found out that most people never have anything more to say than something fits into 140 characters, anyway.

              And the rest is history.

              Entire generations growing up now have the idea that a ‘conversation’ consists of short bursts of statements less than 140 characters.

              Reply

  33. **
    ** ATTORNEY PAT MCGRODER ISSUES A PUBLIC PLEA ASKING USFS TO LET THE
    ** BLUE RIDGE HOTSHOTS SPEAK FREELY ABOUT THE YARNELL INCIDENT

    The Press Conference today was carried LIVE by TV Channel FOX10 in Phoenix, and they have now uploaded a video of the entire press conference to a public YouTube page.

    The Settlement Press Conference itself ( 45 minutes and 33 seconds )…

    YouTube title: FNN: Yarnell Hill Fire Settlement Press Conference
    Posted by YouTube User: FOX 10 Phoenix
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K7GASJl5T6Q

    I have almost finished a full transcript of the entire press conference, and I will upload that soon… but some very interesting things were said near the end of the press conference that aren’t showing up in any of the MSM news reports.

    Example 1: Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney was answering a question from a reporter and he alluded to a ‘new document’ that is supposed to be generated following this settlement. He called it a “Lessons Learned” document.

    Example 2: A reporter asked direct questions about both Brendan McDonough AND the Blue Ridge Hotshots… and attorney for the plaintiffs ( Pat McGroder ) took those questions. He says that McDonough will do whatever he wants… and is ‘irrelevant’… and McGroder then makes a public ‘plea’ to the Blue Ridge Hotshots to start talking freely about the incident.

    From the Press Conference video at the link above…
    ————————————————————————————-
    +36:00

    ( A question is being asked by a reporter which cannot be heard but it was referencing the original Serious Accident Investigation Report ).

    +36:20
    ( Jeff Whitney, Arizona State Forester that succeeded Scott Hunt ):

    Uh… I think you may mis-characterize the posture and the findings of the Serious Accident Investigation. Um… The Wildland fire community is… uh… a large one. Uh… I have an opportunity in my position to… uh… carry the… the banner and the interest that all in the Wildland community desire in terms of firefighter and public safety… uh… but I think I can bring… as we develop a “Lessons Learned”… uh… document out of this and prepare and provide a staff ride that we’re gonna be able to provide a learning opportunity… uh… to… to take it to that extent. Thank you.

    +37:05

    ( Another question is asked by a reporter but also cannot be heard. It appears to be asking about Brendan McDonough AND the Blue Ridge Hotshots, and whether they will still be required to testify openly about what they know. )

    (Pat McGroder, Attorney for the plaintiffs ): I’ll answer that question.

    Uh… at some time… uh… Mr. McDonough may or may not chose to publicy describe what he saw… what he heard that day.

    Uh… Mr. McDonough has an attorney at this point in time.

    But in terms of today… whether it be Mr. McDonough or the Blue Ridge firefighters… the purpose of today was to let YOU know the enormity of the commitment that State Forester Whitney has made to sit down with our families… at great lengths and great expense… and answer their questions, describe what happened… whether it be informally or formally… or in the case of a… a ‘ride’.

    So we’re very comfortable in terms of the commitment to the State Forester.

    This litigation was in State Court. It was not… well… it was originally in State Court but wound up in Federal Court.

    The Arizona… strike that… the National Forest Service was not a defendant in the case.

    Uh… had the case gone forward, could we have commanded… uh… depositions?… testimony?… Absolutely.

    But… echoing Dennis’ thought…

    The IDEA… the IDEA that the Federal Government is withholding information…

    The IDEA that ANYONE would withhold information from these families…

    Uh… is… it… it really speaks to the lack of understanding and empathy and dignity that they should have for these families.

    So… we would PUBLICLY call for the Blue Ridge Mountain folks and the National Forest Service to let their people talk.

    However… at this point in time… we’re dealing with families that have suffered the utmost of tragedies… and we are very comfortable in terms of the commitments that the State Forester has made to render information to us within HIS purview.

    Mr. McDonough is irrelevant to this press conference today.

    ( Another question is asked from a reporter but it is not audible ).

    (Pat McGroder): Well… let me straighten your ass out, Howard.

    First of all.. there ARE published, public reports… on both sides of the ledger.

    State Forester and ADOSH.

    Those reports were generated by interviews, uh… by expert testimony, etcetera, etcetera.

    And obviously, depending on which lawyer you talk to, those reports were diametrically opposed.

    The problem we have here in terms of whether or not, Howard, we will ever know exactly what happened… those that can tell us… those who can speak to it.. are in heaven… and we don’t have an opportunity to talk to them.

    At the time and place, Mr. McDonough decides to talk… obviously we will take that into consideration.

    But the overriding scientific issues… whether it be weather, whether it be communications or lack thereof… whether it be issues regarding Incident Command and things of that nature…

    All of that, in addition to the two reports that have been issued, have been subject, nationwide, to theorists… to conspiracists… to who killed Martin Luther King… and right now, for the families, in THIS litigation, their concern, and their singular concern, was working with Jeff ( Whitney ), and working with Mark, and working with Governor Ducey to get in an optimal position so they can have a modicum of peace and understanding.

    And Jeff ( Whitney ) has committed to do that and we are comfortable with Jeff’s commitment to do that.

    Now… whether or not… uh… the Federal Government decides to HIDE again as they did in another one of my cases, fast and furious, we’ll see.

    Uh… but at the end of the day… uh… I am comfortable that to the extent there are FACTS out there that we may or may not know… or a spin on those facts that we may or may not know… that information will be forthcoming.

    Thank you all for coming.
    —————————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      Thank you, thank you so much, that was wonderful, that was a real hoot. Pat McGroder is a real shit bag in a world full of shit bags. Priceless.

      Reply

      • Whoops, bad typo. I meant to say

        Thank you, thank you so much, that was wonderful, that was a real hoot. Pat McGroder is a VERY SPECIAL shit bag in a world full of REGULAR shit bags. Priceless.

        Reply

          • My thoughts—We got little of the Lessons learned from 2 Investigations.

            Do they actually have information dug up from both sides that will shed light on Lessons Learned?

            With out Blue Ridge Talking can they confirm any of those Lessons learned. They are quite imbedded in this Story.

            The Families seem to have stuck to there need for the truth buy getting a release of the facts on both sides in a State release of Lessons Learned.

            I Guess I am Skeptical of an all seeing all knowing all telling document
            but we shall see. My real hope is that the Families get the full truth and that there is real lessons learned by Wild Land Fire Fighters.
            All of us need a reliable Honest answer.

            Rest in Peace Granit Mountain 19 on the day of the second Anniversary.
            And Peace be with all the Families.

            Hold on to the good memories they will carry you the rest of your lives as my memories have carried me.

            WE WILL NEVER FORGET——–

            Reply

            • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 30, 2015 at 6:32 am

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> My thoughts—We got little of the Lessons learned
              >> from 2 Investigations.

              Well… in the FIRST investigation there wasn’t even any ‘little’ about it. There was NOTHING. “No one did anything wrong… move along… move along”.

              19 men dead… and no one did anything wrong.

              Lesson Learned: Shit just happens… God had a different plan for those men. Get over it. Move on.

              That’s what pissed EVERYONE off ( Firefighters and Non-firefighters alike ).

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Do they actually have information dug up from
              >> both sides that will shed light on Lessons Learned?

              If by ‘they’ you mean the plaintiffs… I don’t think so… and that is what surprised me. A team of lawyers working for them for almost a year-and-a-half and my impression is that those lawyers don’t know any more about what happened than what they have been reading in the newspapers.

              In other words… NO attempt seems to have ever been made on THEIR part ( McGroder and his other two assistants ) to interview ANY of the dozens of people even WE have identified here as either never being interviewed at all ( Dozer operator Paul Morin, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble, the THREE other Blue Ridge Hotshots that were moving the GM vehicles and probably heard everything this squirrelly McDonough guy heard, the elusive Air Attack Rory Collins, yada, yada, yada ) or that we identified as needing to be re-interviewed with some pretty specific questions.

              And that’s just the SHORT LIST.

              There’s a lot of other ‘prep-work’ I was just assuming these attorneys had been doing themselves ( as in… their own investigative work ) that appears to have been totally blown off.

              At least that’s the impression Mr. McGroder gave at that short press conference.

              Throughout the press conference ( and the questions that followed ), this McGroder guy kept coming back to the ‘mantra’ he had decided to be humming for this public appearance.

              “We are comfortable with the commitment from Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney to get together with the plaintiffs some way, somehow, to be announced, and supposedly answer some of their questions that fall into HIS purview”.

              What kind of horseshit is that?

              Is that some kind of tacit admission ( as you just surmised ) that Arizona Forestry has ALWAYS known more and they have ALWAYS been withholding that information and now that they know they aren’t going to get their little-boy asses paddled… they are “willing to share that information”?

              It’s still hard to hear but I believe that was basically the question a reporter was asking State Forester Jeff Whitney during the press conference. Something along the lines of…

              “So are you basically now admitting that the original SAIT investigation was nothing but a coverup??

              Whitney looked like a frickin’ deer in the headlights throughout the press conference and all he said back to the reporter was…

              “I think you mis-characterize the nature of the SAIT document”.

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >>
              >> With out Blue Ridge Talking can they confirm any
              >> of those Lessons learned. They are quite imbedded
              >> in this Story.

              Yes, they are.

              And even if McDonough ‘disappears’ ( highly likely )… those 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who were also moving the GM vehicles still most likely heard everything Brendan did… both GM intra-crew and TAC channel traffic included.

              That seemed to actually be the attitude that McGroder came into the press conference with.

              McGroder basically said…

              “Screw this slippery McDonough character. He’s “irrelevant to this press conference”.. but I’m sending out a PUBLIC PLEA to the USFS to let their people talk”.

              It’s hard to tell whether McGroder was including Prescott Natioanl Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in there… along with the Blue Ridge Hotshots… and even Thomas French and John Burfiend ( who ADOSH was also never able to interview )… or even the ever-elusive Air Attack Rory Collins…

              …but it sounded like it.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> The Families seem to have stuck to there need for
              >> the truth buy getting a release of the facts on both
              >> sides in a State release of Lessons Learned.

              I disagree.

              I think the families “caved”.

              And by ‘families’ I also get the impression that this Deborah Pfingston woman was almost literally “running the show” on the plaintiffs side of the table. She has that kind of personality.

              I also think we were RIGHT and all the delays and postponements were about Brendan McDonough.

              I mean… just LOOK at the terms of the settlement itself.

              There is NOTHING in there ( that we know of so far ) that should have taken all the various postponements and delays to come up with. It’s just a namby-pamby list of “if you do this ( drop the fines and any attempt to assign blame )… then we’ll do this ( implement some changes and write some document )”.

              Nah. My feeling is that ALL of the delays were still in the hopes that this slippery McDonough guy was going to finally do what he should have always done from day one… tell the TRUTH and tell the ‘whole story’ of he saw/heard/knows.

              But during the last 30 days… it looks like McDonough’s attorney David Shapiro was just doing HIS job and keeping his client “off the stand” until if/when there was an actual trial.

              So the families “caved”.

              They had Arizona Forestry “on the ropes”.
              They were “running the show” here.

              But they “balked” and went for the settlement itself.

              I think that’s a shame.

              There are too many people involved here that would have ONLY told the truth if they were dragged into a courtroom kicking and screaming. That’s how much “character” THEY have.

              I wish the families had proceeded to trial.

              I still think after all the additional depositions were taken and/or people who still know things had been called to the stand and faced jail time for not finally talking…

              …they would have “mopped the floor” with Arizona Forestry and gotten everything THEY wanted… INCLUDING the REAL TRUTH about what happened that day.

              All they have now is an outside chance they MIGHT get the REAL TRUTH. That’s too bad.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> I Guess I am Skeptical of an all seeing all knowing
              >> all telling document but we shall see.

              We still have no idea what this mysterious ( new? ) “Lessons Learned” document is that both plaintiff spokeswoman Deborah Pfingston and State Forestry Jeff Whitney seem to be talking about.

              It could end up being written just like the SAIR and just say things that even SAIR Co-Lead Mike Dudley admitted to believing… but never put it in his SAIR document.

              Stuff like…

              “Yea… it’s probably a bad idea to have a DIVS ordering his resources all over the damn place over a PRIVATE Hotshot intra-crew radio frequency so no one else has a clear understanding what that resource is ACTUALLY doing or the chance for any input if they are making a stupid mistake”.

              Lesson Learned: Try not to do that.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> My real hope is that the Families get the full truth

              Me too… but they ‘families’ just basically “gave up” on their absolute BEST chance to achieve that goal.

              I think that’s a shame.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> and that there is real lessons learned by Wild Land
              >> Fire Fighters

              I’m still not sure WFFs know WHAT lessons to actually take away from this greatest BLUNDER in the history of Wildland Firefighting … but how much you want to bet that out there, already, at morning briefings somewhere on an active fire… some supervisors aren’t also telling the crews they are sending into harm’s way…

              “Oh… and one more thing… nobody do a ‘Granite Mountain’ out there today, okay?”

              …and somehow…the crews know what that means.

              >> Bob Power also said…
              >>
              >>.All of us need a reliable Honest answer.

              Yes.. because ALL of us were asked to mourn these men, and to send money, and to grieve, and to follow all these bullshit shenanigans as we watched men who are supposed to have courage hide behind lawyers and their own fears.

              This truly has been “the world is watching”… but someone forgot to make that clear to the dinosaurs who run this WFF business.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Rest in Peace Granite Mountain 19 on the day of the
              >> second anniversary. And Peace be with all the Families.
              >>
              >> Hold on to the good memories they will carry you
              >> the rest of your lives as my memories have carried me.
              >>
              >> WE WILL NEVER FORGET——–

              What you said.

              Reply

      • Reply to Gary Olson post on June 30, 2015 at 2:58 am

        >> Gary Olson said…
        >>
        >> WTKTT,
        >> Thank you, thank you so much, that was wonderful, that was a real hoot.
        >> Pat McGroder is a real shit bag in a world full of shit bags. Priceless.

        Just ONE of his “Master Card / Priceless” moments was when he compared all the ‘theorizing’ and ‘speculation’ about what really happened that day to “Who killed Martin Luther King”.

        I’ve got a ‘news flash’ for Mr. McGroder.

        We really DO know who killed Martin Luther King…

        …and it only got “figured out” after a lot of ‘theorizing’ and ‘speculation’. combined with some damn good investigative work.

        Reply

  34. **
    ** FAMILIES AGREE TO SETTLE ‘WRONGFUL DEATH’ LAWSUITS

    Breaking news ( on June 29, 2015 ).

    The families have agreed to settle the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

    The State of Arizona will pay the family of each of the 19 deceased Hotshots just $50,000.

    FOX10 – Phoenix
    Families, Arizona settle suit in deaths of 19 firefighters
    Posted: Jun 29, 2015 1:25 PM CDT Updated: Jun 29, 2015 7:04 PM CDT
    http://www.fox10phoenix.com/story/29433896/settlement-appears-close-in-yarnell-hill-fire-lawsuit

    Reply

    • Correction for above.

      Only 12 of the families of the 19 were actually part of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
      Only these 12 will get a lump sum $50,000 payment from Arizona Forestry.

      The “Arizona vs. ADOSH” court proceeding is now also ‘cancelled’.
      As part of the ‘settlement’… Arizona Forestry has agreed to drop their appeal of the ADOSH findings, accept the findings, and just pay the fines.

      As part of paying those fines… Arizona Forestry has also agreed to pay just $10,000 to each of the other SEVEN families who were NOT part of the ‘wrongful death’ suits.

      Here is the complete text that accompanies the article at FOX10 – Phoenix…

      —————————————————–
      PHOENIX (AP) — A dozen families who lost members when a Hotshot firefighting crew was overcome by a wildfire near the small community of Yarnell have settled a suit they filed against the state of Arizona.

      The settlement announced Monday by Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich will pay the families $50,000 each. Some vowed to donate the money to a new wildland firefighter safety foundation.

      A second part of the agreement ends a state Forestry Division appeal of nearly $560,000 in fines issued by the Arizona’s workplace safety agency. The state agreed to enhanced safety training for wildland fire crews and will pay the other seven families $10,000 each.

      The 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots died on June 30, 2013 while fighting a fire about 80 miles northwest of Phoenix.
      ——————————————————————

      So it looks like Brendan McDonough will never be deposed ‘under oath’.

      There are now no more active court proceedings that can call him to testify.

      Reply

        • See (public) statement below from Deborah Pfingston ( mother of Andrew Ashcraft ).

          She seems to suggest that Brendan has already ‘secretly testified’ since the previous May 28 deposition got cancelled… OR that his “testifying”, once and for all, is actually part of the settlement itself.

          They are still playing games and just “hinting” at things here.

          Reply

          • Followup… scratch my comment above. The AZCENTRAL article has now appeared and it includes a interview with Patrick McGroder, attorney for the families.

            He seems to make it clear that Brendan was NOT secretly deposed in the ‘cone of silence’ since the THIRD attempt to depose him… nor are there any plans for him to make any more statements whatsoever.

            So what you said above. It’s all about his ‘book’ now… and ( cha-ching ) the price ( and his cut ) just went UP.

            Reply

            • Well…it goes against my personality to say I told you so…but I told you so.

              Of course I was always hoping for them, but fighting the government is a really, really, really hard thing to do as I have been saying all along, although I was hoping fighting the state of Arizona might be easier than fighting the federal government, but that was not the case.

              I have also been saying that the name of the game for everybody with deep pockets is never to admit ANY wrong doing, period. I have also been saying that making any changes in how willdland firefighting is fought, was always a pipe dream, especially since as I have said many times, the Arizona Division of Forestry is just too small of a player in the game. So that was never to be.

              And other than the fact that I am a Terminal Asshole, my main reason to point all of this out by saying “I told you so” is to highlight that if anybody wants ANY change to come out this disaster, this is the only game in town and this thread is all but being ignored except for a few diehard bloggers and viewers.

              I would like to see some of the families get behind what we are trying to do here, IF…they want any measure of truth or any changes, those things will come out of this thread or from nowhere and if more of those who are, or were on the inside don’t help us more, we don’t have much of a chance here either.

              Reply

              • Oh…and one more thing, that settlement obviously fits into the category of a “nuisance” settlement that any good attorney representing the government will do to make a nuisance lawsuit go away.

                The attorneys representing those families did them a great injustice by not explaining all of this to them in the very beginning, and if the attorneys did explain it to them, then shame on those families for bringing a nuisance lawsuit IF they really weren’t prepared to go to the mattresses (The Godfather), after attorneys fees they won’t get squat for all of the drama, stress and heartache.

                They should have at least hung in there long enough to make that little rat bastard McDonut be deposed…SHIT!

                I have to have a lot of respect for the families that stayed clear of this disaster…on top of a disaster.

                Reply

                • Wow! A bunch of human excrement attorneys doing someone a disservice. Nobody could possibly see this coming…right?

                  Reply

      • Some quotes from the video at the FOX10 – Phoenix link above.

        Arizona Attorney General Mark Brnovich, speaking at the press
        conference that was held this afternoon to announce the settlement…

        “The agencies aren’t admitting ANY sort of guilt or negligence… because, frankly,
        that wasn’t the goal, ultimately, of all of our parties. Um… ya know… we have
        another motto around here and that’s ‘don’t fix blame… fix the problem'”.

        Reporter: The Families of the fallen firefighters said it really wasn’t about the money. It was about sending a message and making sure this sort of thing never happens again.

        Then Deborah Pfingston ( mother of Andrew Ashcraft ) said ( at the podium )…

        “We still have work on the horizon. The ‘Lessons Learned’… the TRUTH about
        the deaths of our sons, husbands and fathers WILL be coming”.

        That’s all she said. ( on camera, anyway ).

        She herself emphasized the “WILL be coming” part.

        So what the fuck is that supposed to mean?

        Does that mean that Brendan McDonough is not really ‘off the hook’ here, and
        part of the ‘settlement’ itself is some kind of promise that he will finally do what
        he should have always done in the first place and tell the TRUTH and the ‘whole
        story’ of what he knows?

        Or does it mean that within the last few weeks… they worked out the consternation that cause the cancellation of the May 28 deposition… and somehow Brendan has now already ‘secretly testified’ under-oath… and that’s what has actually led to this ‘settlement’?

        Reply

        • I don’t know, but that sounds to me like putting lipstick on a pig, calling it your date and buying it dinner.

          Those statements from Deborah Pfingston, and I am truly sorry for her loss, but those statements remind me of President Nixon withdrawing from Vietnam with his Peace With Honor declarations, and then they has to push all of the helicopters off the deck of the aircraft carrier to make room for more U.S. Embassy officials running for their lives.

          Reply

      • The AZCENTRAL story about today’s ‘settlement’…

        AZCENTRAL
        Yarnell Hill Fire lawsuits settle for $670,000, reforms
        Published: 2:40 p.m. MST June 29, 2015 by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez
        http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2015/06/29/yarnell-hill-fire-lawsuits-settlement-press-conference/29463359/

        From the article…
        ————————————————————
        The settlement occurs without the testimony of Granite Mountain Hotshot Brendan McDonough, who barely escaped the firestorm that day and was the crew’s lone survivor.

        McDonough recently told the crew’s founder that he overheard a radio conversation between Eric Marsh, the crew’s supervisor who’d separated from the others to scout the fire, and Jesse Steed, Marsh’s top deputy. It it, Marsh is believed to have ordered the crew to leave their safety zone. The conversation is believed to have occurred shortly before the hotshots were overcome by flames.

        Attorneys for state forestry repeatedly sought McDonough’s testimony under oath, but a deposition never happened.

        When asked about the lack of deposition from McDonough, attorney McGroder replied, “I’m not sure anyone will have all the answers to what happened that day.”

        He continued, “Our position is, Mr. McDonough will do what he wants to do when he wants to do it, and that will be his decision.”
        ————————————————————

        So scratch what I said above about Deborah Pfingston seeming to indicate that Brendan had either already testified in secret during the now month-old ‘cone of silence’ surrounding the ALJ Hearing File… OR that his ‘deposition’ was actually still forthcoming and still part of the ‘settlement’.

        Attorney McGroder now seems to be making it clear that is NOT the case.

        Reply

        • **
          ** SETTLEMENT WAS ACTUALLY APPROVED BACK ON JUNE 18

          Another AZCENTRAL article that says the ‘settlement’ was actually ‘approved’ behind closed doors in the Arizona Joint Legislative Budget Committee back on June 18, 2015…

          http://myinforms.com/en/a/14255532-yarnell-hill-fire-lawsuits-settle-for-670000-reforms/

          From the article…
          ——————————————————-
          The Republic has learned a proposed settlement was approved by the Joint Legislative Budget Committee behind closed doors in executive session on June 18.
          ——————————————————

          So they’ve been “sitting on it” until today and were just timing the public announcement to coincide with the second anniversary of the tragedy.

          Reply

    • **
      ** ARIZONA FORESTRY DOES NOT HAVE TO PAY THE ADOSH FINE(S)

      The following article makes it clear that as part of today’s settlement… where Arizona Forestry has agreed to DROP their appeal of the $559,000 ADOSH fine for an unbelievably UNSAFE workplace on June 30, 2013… Arizona Forestry does NOT still have to pay the fine.

      As part of the “the deal”… ADOSH agreed to WITHDRAW the $559,000 fine in EXCHANGE for Arizona Forestry paying $10,000 to each of the SEVEN families that were not part of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

      So Arizona Forestry got the ADOSH $559,000 fine whittled down to just $70,000.

      The Arizona Capitol Times

      Article Title: Families of perished Yarnell firefighters agree to
      substantially reduced settlement

      By: Howard Fischer, Capitol Media Services June 29, 2015 , 5:31 pm

      http://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2015/06/29/families-of-perished-yarnell-firefighters-agree-to-substantially-reduced-settlement/

      From the article…
      ——————————————————————
      Part of Monday’s deal includes the Industrial Commission dropping the maximum permissible $559,000 penalty it imposed on the state Forestry Division after the deaths, a penalty the state had challenged.

      The settlement reduces that to $70,000 – $10,000 for each of the seven families that did not sue. More significant, it cancels hearing set for later this year to determine whether violations of safety regulations led to the firefighters’ deaths.

      ———————————————————-

      Reply

    • The Prescott Daily Courier has chimed in…

      The Prescott Daily Courier
      Article Title: Parties involved in Hotshot wrongful-death lawsuit announce settlement
      Published: 6/29/2015 5:20:00 PM by Cindy Barks
      http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1087&ArticleID=147091

      From the article…
      ————————————————————————–
      Central to the settlement: A list of 32 changes that the Arizona
      State Forestry Division will either make, or has already made in
      the way it fights wildfires.
      ————————————————————————–

      I don’t see anyone actually reporting ( yet ) what these ’32 changes’ actually ARE.

      Reply

  35. So the land sale was yesterday at 11:00, who was the lucky bidder?

    Arizona Parks or the Widows or someone else???

    Cant find anything in the news.

    Reply

    • Reply to rocksteady post on June 29, 2015 at 10:30 am

      >> rocksteady said…
      >>
      >> So the land sale was yesterday at 11:00, who was the lucky bidder?

      Just echoing what Bob Powers said.

      The actual deployment site land auction isn’t until this Tuesday morning, June 30, 2015, at 11:00 AM on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse, on the morning of the official second anniversary itself.

      The memorial service / park dedication that happened yesterday ( June 28 ) in Yarnell was scheduled for Sunday, I believe, because of some of the speakers and guests who were there ( Like Darrell Willis, State Representative Karen Fann, etc. ). That was a ‘best fit’ for their schedules given they will probably be part of the other June 30 memorial service scheduled to take place in Prescott.

      There will be ANOTHER memorial ceremony at this same spot in Yarnell where yesterday’s ground-breaking took place this Tuesday, June 30, 2013. It takes place between 4:00 and 5:00 PM and includes observing the State-wide ‘moment of silence’ at exactly 4:43 PM.

      4:43 PM is one of the ‘accepted’ possible times for the deployment site burnover itself.

      Also… just making it clear that the ‘park dedication’ yesterday in Yarnell has nothing to do with the deployment site. It was the dedication of that empty lot in Yarnell itself at the corner of Shrine Road and Highway 89. That is a Yarnell thing only and doesn’t have anything to do with what the Arizona State Yarnell Hill Memorial Board is trying to do with the deployment site itself.

      Reply

      • Thanks for clearing it up.

        Been working 16 hours a day for a week on a fire, so not as sharp as I usually am. 🙂

        Reply

        • Well… if anyone asks you to take a shortcut through a blind box canyon filled with explosive fuel within less than a mile of an exploding, wind driven fireline and with no lookout…

          Please say “NO THANK YOU”.

          Reply

          • Not my first rodeo… 33 years in the job, never had that sort of silly thought. Presently doing FBAN on a type 1 incident trying to keep my boys and girls safe by hitting home fire behaviour messaging…

            Reply

  36. **
    ** NEWS FOOTAGE FROM TODAY’S SECOND ANNIVERSARY CEREMONY
    ** AND MEMORIAL PARK DEDICATION IN YARNELL

    KPHO/ KTVK / 3TV’s Jonathan Lowe’s video report with footage from today’s memorial ceremony and park dedication in Yarnell…

    http://raycomgroup.worldnow.com/story/29426644/19-hotshots-killed-in-yarnell-hill-fire-honored-on-2nd-anniversary

    At +2:18 into this video there is an interview with Lew Theokas, Peeples Valley resident and the grandfather of GM Hotshot Garret Zuppiger.

    Reply

  37. at memorial—names for the female puppy mascot were tossed out:
    Nellie for Yarnell
    Sweetie
    Honeybunch
    Junior
    Honest
    June
    Willis wife said “Bonita 19”
    Wild Willy
    cutie pie
    Willis
    Liberty
    Kid
    Lola
    Lily
    correction on earlier post—I posted link to Barbi twins when I was thinking of Bambi—ooops

    Reply

    • NAME
      How about SHY—— had a Dalmatian back in the 60’s I named. she was shy as a puppy but never after. She kept my kids away from a 3 FT Rattlesnake in our yard till the Engine crew got there and got rid of it. She raised holy hell until then. She played with those kids every day and was their protector. She even rode with me in my Patrol truck made a great hit in the camp grounds.

      Reply

  38. Thank you Cliff and Shirley…Happy 59th Anniversary…they lost their home and there is sooo many people I continue on and this lovely couple are one of my top reasons…they were in Laughlin when their home burned down. How do I get raw footage from a news station…same as FOIA’s?

    I called Craig Knapp with them present on speaker phone and we have had mix accounts so we went to the source and some say they had to pay $280 for appeals and 1% but this couple confirmed Knapp sent material out asap Friday and they got it Saturday and they do not owe any funds for the appeals process so I have no answers to why some say what they do but this couple an I confirmed right to the source—

    Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 28, 2015 at 5:39 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura asked…
      >>
      >> How do I get raw footage from a news station…same as FOIA’s?

      Private companies and organizations are not subject to “Freedom of Information” requests from the public…. but if you simply ask them for specific pieces of footage that might be in their archives they will usually try to help you out.

      That’s been my experience, anyway.

      They DO have a right to CHARGE for the material, though, especially if there is any kind of time-consuming effort involved on their part to make copies and whatnot.

      >> Joy Collura also said…
      >>
      >> I called Craig Knapp with them present on speaker phone and we have
      >> had mix accounts so we went to the source and some say they had
      .> to pay $280 for appeals and 1% but this couple confirmed Knapp sent
      >> material out asap Friday and they got it Saturday and they do not
      >> owe any funds for the appeals process

      Thank you, Joy. Yes. The ‘rumor’ has been that ALL of the 160+ plaintiffs in the property damage suits were supposed to come up with $280 in order for the appeals to go forward. Nice to hear that is most likely NOT the case.

      Reply

  39. wow. one person just made the comment in legion “those people have to do the memorial but I don’t”

    this is how many think in this town so you have to understand how NOT EASY it has been to piece the puzzle and I know who is who and I have tried to get the word out for the world to properly assess the fire…

    Reply

  40. at memorial rememberance today—The one who spoke the GMHS names as one rang a bell for each name—he is from CYFD—my whole energy and connect to him—HE KNOWS SOMETHING on missing elements to YHF.
    see video.
    I strongly feel that way.
    Can you on here identify him to be one from the fire that weekend?

    Reply

  41. during a song and having WIllis on stage so near and meeting his VERY lovely wife I had a hard to keep from going into a seizure while filming Blazing Honor song because all day I cannot SHAKE how come Cordes got awards and firefighter of the year—I plan to talk to the other family he supposedly saved but I already spoke to direct to one of the families and he was not the man who saved him but a slightly bearded man age 44-54 in a green forestry truck. I said hello and waved to Karen Fann and she so ignored me plain as day…okay the world will be able to view it…let me figure out how to do it because I recorded it—over one hour…I had a great time talking with Willis and his wife; I learned a lot about his process after the deaths as his wife explained their ministering part in it…fine woman. Saw Dona Kafer there too Okay let me upload for you all. I made it to the legion.

    Reply

  42. **
    ** GARY CORDES APPEARS TO HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GET OUT TO THE BOULDER
    ** SPRINGS RANCH HIMSELF IMMEDIATELY FOLLOWING THE DEPLOYMENT.

    Reply to Marti Reed post on June 19, 2015 at 9:00 pm

    NOTE: This is a continuation of a thread from the other day that was discussing WHY, since SPGS1 Gary Cordes knew Marsh and GM were headed to the Boulder Ranch, that arrangements weren’t being made to have them “picked up” sooner than Cordes telling Esquibel to send ‘engines’ to the BSR just prior to the deployment radio traffic.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> You said:
    >> “it was (perhaps) because that’s where they were supposed
    >> to GET TO WORK on something in that same vicinity.”
    >>
    >> So, if you are correct on this (and I am understanding this), that
    >> this was in Cordes’ head……..
    >> ……then what was in Gary Cordes’ head (via, possiby Eric’s head)
    >> was that GM would be able to, relatively quickly, hoof it from the
    >> Boulder Springs Ranch, via that Driveway that led out from there
    >> to wherever “they” were imagining that dozer line that would be
    >> heading southwest from that place you have located earlier, down
    >> that draw would have met them.

    Yes… and with regards to Gary Cordes (possibly) having it “in his head” that part of the plan WAS to have Granite Mountain ( as you say ) “hoof it down the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway”…

    …I have just found more evidence that *could* indicate that was exactly what he was thinking they would do… and that after Tyson Esquibel FAILED to send anyone out there to the Boulder Springs Ranch as Cordes had instructed him to do… that Cordes, himself, actually entered Glen Ilah to see if they might have gotten ‘caught’ somewhere on that driveway.

    See below.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Yes, I can imagine that being a slide in both (or three) of their heads.
    >> And, thus, not necessitating a “pre-positioned” plan for any vehicles
    >> to have met them there at the Boulder Springs to safely pull them
    >> out of there – until everything went south into total chaos and Gary
    >> Cordes realized that was happening, and thus, requested his Strike
    >> Force Leader (Trainee) to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs
    >> Ranch to meet them and get them out “safely.”

    Yes. And there is now new evidence which suggests that when Esquibel FAILED to do that… Cordes himself went all the way into Glen Ilah to the very place where the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway meets Ridgeway Drive to see if he, himself, could find them.

    See below.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> So THAT means that, by THAT time, Gary Cordes must have
    >> realized “The Plan” was basically toast, even though GM was
    >> heading down as a result of trying to fulfill it. and he needed to
    >> (finally) take responsibility for trying to get some kind of
    >> transportation over to them to get them (safely) from the Boulder
    >> Springs Ranch to some kind of, relatively speaking, safe (and,
    >> potentially after that, useful) place.
    >>
    >> Is that what you are “seeing” here?

    Yes, Marti. That is exactly the ‘scenario’ I was thinking of.

    That up until the moment Cordes realized EVERYTHING was ( as Paul Musser said to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) “going to shit”… and that ALL plans to defend ANY part of that town were now out the window…

    Only then did he realize that any ‘plans’ that had been in place for using Granite Mountain to do anything near the BSR were also ‘out the window’.

    And since he KNEW that’s where they were heading ( or even thought they had already arrived there ) he only NOW realized the only valid ‘plan’ was to make sure they got the hell OUT of there, or were at least SAFE there at the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    So THAT is what we hear him telling Esquibel to do in the Aaron Hulburd video.

    But Esquibel never did it.

    Esquibel evacuated to the Ranch House Restaurant and never sent any engines back towards the Boulder Springs Ranch as Cordes had instructed him to do.

    ** NEW EVIDENCE?

    So here comes some NEW (?) evidence which *suggests* that the moment Gary Cordes showed up at the Ranch House Restaurant himself and realized that Esquibel had NOT sent any engines to ‘check on Granite Mountain’ out at the Boulder Springs Ranch… Gary Cordes decided to do that himself.

    Let me preface the following by saying we still do not know exactly WHEN Gary Cordes himself showed up at the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot along with everyone else.

    As far as I know… there are still NO ‘sightings’ of him in any of the Tom Story or Michelle Lee photographs taken in and around the RHR before, during and after the time of deployment.

    But what we DO know is that as the fire was coming into Glen Ilah… Gary Cordes himself was ‘back there’ in his own vehicle… trying to do “something”.

    That “something” has always been thought to be simply assisting with the evacuation of Glen Ilah… and he certainly did do some of that while he was “back there” ( and ended up winning the AWA “Fireman of the Year” for two rescues he did” ) but is that really the ONLY reason Gary Cordes went “back there” into Glen Ilah? TWICE?

    There’s some (possible) new evidence to suggest it WAS more than just that, and that he had particular “destinations” in mind BOTH times he went “back there”.

    ** CORDES TO ESQUIBEL: ARE ALL THE RESOURCES SAFE?

    Even though we don’t know the exact moment Cordes arrived at the RHR… I think it’s pretty safe to assume that when Cordes DID arrive there he must have asked Esquibel if he had done what he had told him to do with regards to ‘checking on Granite Mountain’… and Cordes then quickly found out Esquibel had done no such thing.

    Actually… Gary Cordes doesn’t mention this specific consultation with Esquibel regardinig his order to send an Engine to the BSR… but his own ADOSH testimony says that he DID have a “are all the resources safe” conversation with Tyson Esquibel at the RHR.

    Gary Cordes told ADOSH he definitely asked Tyson Esquibel if “everyone was accounted for” as soon as he arrived at the RHR.

    From Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013

    Q2 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
    A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
    ——————————————————————————————–
    1569 A:… I was helpin ev- evacuate which looks like that Norton
    1570 way, I was trying to get some evacuation done in there because it was coming
    1571 in pretty aggressive on that end of town.
    1572
    1573 Q2: And so you were assi – you tied in with your assigned resources…
    1574
    1575 A: Right. And then after…
    1576
    1577 Q2: …uh, I…
    1578
    1579 A: …after I did that I went down to the Ranch Restaurant like which is just up by
    1580 Glenn Ilah there, and tied in with um, everybody. At that point I was making
    1581 sure everybody, all the resources were in the safety zone and uh, because we
    1582 had already made the determination that we were not gonna actively fight fire
    1583 within the community ‘til it had pulsed through because of the, the high risk.
    1584 Um, so I tied in with the crew and, and made sure everybody was accounted
    1585 for there. With the uh, task force leader.
    ———————————————————————————————–

    The ‘task force leader’ that Cordes says he ‘tied in’ with at the RHR once he got down there and was then doing that ‘confirmation’ with was, of course, Tyson Esquibel.

    It must have been at that moment when Cordes realized Esquibel had NOT done what he told him to do and Esquibel had NOT sent any ‘Engines’ out to the Boulder Springs Ranch yet.

    Matter of fact… if Cordes’ focus at that point really was just simply doing a ‘head count’ at the RHR and ( as he said himself ) ‘making sure all the resources were in the RHR safety zone’… then that is most likely the same moment he learned ALL of the following things…

    1. DIVSA and Granite Mountain were NOT there at the RHR.
    2. TFLD(t) Esquibel had NOT sent any engines to the BSR to ‘get them out safely’.
    3. No one seemed to know where the dozer and operator Paul Morin were, either, but his last know location was out there at the ‘staging area’ at the end of Manzanita Drive.

    The very NEXT thing Cordes said he did after this ‘head count’ with Esquibel at the RHR was enter the Glen Ilah subdivision itself….

    —————————————————-
    1600 Okay, and then uh, here’s one, entered the subdivision of Glenn Ilah
    1601 and what is that, removing four stranded elderly on uh??…
    1603
    1604 A: Several trips in and out.
    1605
    1606 Q2: …several trip, trips in and out, turned them over to an ambulance for tran- uh,
    1607 transmit
    —————————————————–

    The ‘several trips’ that Cordes is referring to appear to have been just TWO separate trips, each resulting in him putting two people in his truck in and driving them back to the RHR…

    …but BOTH of those rescues appear to have simply ‘interrupted’ him from reaching certain ‘destinations’ based on where those ‘interruptions’ ACTUALLY took place.

    Continued next message…

    Reply

    • ** DID CORDES HAVE SPECIFIC DESTINATIONS ON BOTH TRIPS INTO GLEN ILAH?

      It has always been assumed that the only reason Gary Cordes ended up ‘back there’ in the Glen Ilah subdivision as the fire was coming into Glen Ilah is because he was trying to ‘rescue’ citizens.

      I’m not sure now that was the PRIMARY reason he went ‘back there’ at all, on BOTH of his trips, and it is based on new evidence of exactly WHERE he really ended up ‘back there’ BOTH times.

      Let me explain…

      In March of 2014, Gary Cordes received the “Firefighter of the Year” award at the Arizona Wildfire Academy’s annual awards ceremony.

      It was for the ‘citizen rescues’ he had performed in Glen Ilah on June 30, 2013.

      It was not until this award was presented to him that we finally learned most of the DETAILS of these ‘citizen rescues’.

      A lot of those details came out in THIS article about him winning the award…

      AZCENTRAL
      Mystery man rescued residents during Yarnell Hill Fire.
      Published: 10:44 a.m. MST March 31, 2014
      http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/03/31/yarnell-hill-fire-mystery-man-rescued-residents/7101035/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

      Cordes performed TWO ‘citizen rescues’ as the fire was coming into Glen Ilah.

      ** THE FIRST RESCUE – ON NORTH MANZANITA

      The FIRST rescue took place at a spot on Manzanita Drive as Cordes was heading NORTH on Manzanita and (presumably?) towards that spot where the pavement of both Manzanita and Lakewood ends. In other words… Cordes might have learned at the RHR that no one knew if Paul Morin and the dozer had actually made it ‘out of there’… and Cordes *could* have been trying to succeed where even Cory Ball had failed and *could* have been trying to reach that spot at the end of Manzanita where the dozer LOBOY was staged and operator Paul Morin’s last known location.

      But if that WAS his “destination” for this FIRST trip… he never made it there.

      Cordes was ‘interrupted’ and encountered an elderly couple walking in the middle of Manzanita holding hands and dressed in pajamas. He put them into his vehicle, and drove them straight back east on Manzanita ( then via Lakewood ) to the Ranch House Restuarant.

      A friend of the couple believes this was Bob and Ruth Hart because they told him the same story.

      This is all detailed in the MSM article linked to above.

      It is even possible that after this first failed attempt to reach the end of Manzanita to try and find Paul Morin and the dozer… Cordes might have then told either OPS2 Paul Musser or the now designated “Granite Mountain Incident within an Incident Commander” Todd Abel that he was unable to confirm if Paul Morin and the dozer were either safe or had evacuated… so Morin should be officially considered “missing” along with Granite Mountain.

      Cordes then turned right around and headed back into Glen Ilah… but this time with (apparently) a different ‘destination’ in mind.

      ** THE SECOND RESCUE – NEAR THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH DRIVEWAY

      The SECOND trip took him all the way to west Glen Ilah, and then he was traveling north on Ridgeway Drive towards the start of the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway.

      That’s when he literally almost ‘ran into’ Bryan Smith where Deertrack Drive intersects with Ridgeway Drive, just short of the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway, and this second trip then resulted in him evacuating Bryan Smith and his 85 year old cousin.

      I’m not going to retell Bryan Smith’s entire story. It’s all detailed in the article above about Cordes winning his “Firefighter of the Year” award…. but I will give some detail which relates to this posting and WHY Bryan Smith was where he was when he (apparently) stopped Gary Cordes from making it all the way to the start of the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway.

      The reason Bryan Smith was standing in the middle of the intersection of Ridgeway Drive and Deertrack Drive is because he didn’t have a car, and he received absolutely NO EVACUATION NOTICE ( not even from any ‘Jeep Squad’ ), and he was, at the last minute, trying to get himself and his 85 year old cousin out on foot from his home on West Deetrack Drive.

      Bryan Smith’s home actually survived the fire and its location is no secret since that’s where he conducted his public video interview(s). The center of Bryan Smith’s house itself is here on the east end of Deertrack Drive…

      34.219210, -112.763609

      That short section of Deertrack Drive that is EAST of Ridgeway Drive is a dead end… so in order to have any chance of escaping on foot they ( Bryan and his 85 year old cousin ) first had to start walking WEST and back towards the intersection of Deetrack Drive and Ridgeway Drive.

      That intersection of Deertrack Drive and Ridgeway Drive is where the only road access out to the Boulder Springs Ranch is.

      The only way out to the Boulder Springs Ranch is to pass through that intersection of Deertack Drive and Ridgeway Drive, heading NORTH on Ridgeway Drive, and then where the pavement of Ridgeway Drive ends at this point…

      34.219431, -112.76464

      …Ridgeway Drive actually BECOMES the start of the dirt road that leads out to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      So according to Bryan Smith’s story that he was freely telling the media in filmed interviews at his house… he and his cousin only walked a short way WEST on Deetrack Drive towards that intersection when his cousin collapsed and said she could go no further.

      Bryan says he got her to the center of the road so she would not be burned by the trees and bushes that were catching fire now on either side of Deertrack Drive, and he continued on through the heavy smoke towards that intersection.

      The center of that intersection of Ridgeway Drive and Deertrack Drive is exactly here…

      34.219068, -112.764813

      When Bryan Smith reached that intersection…he ran into ( almost literally ) Gary Cordes in his vehicle with its lights on ( because it now smoky and dark ) heading north on Ridgeway towards that start of the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway.

      So either this was one HUGE COINCIDENCE… or what actually happened was that Gary Cordes was purposely back there and headed out to the Boulder Springs Ranch when he almost ran right into Bryan Smith standing in the middle of that intersection of Ridgeway Drive and Deertrack Drive.

      Gary Cordes then, apparently, abandoned any other plans he might have had ( like going out to the Boulder Springs Ranch ) and he put Bryan Smith in his vehicle.

      The two of them then ‘creeped’ EAST on Deertrack Drive to try and find Bryan’s cousin who he had left in the center of the road. They had to ‘creep’ forward because the smoke was so bad and Bryan was warning Cordes to go slow so they would not accidentally run over her.

      They found her there in the middle of the road, collected her into Cordes’ truck, and then Cordes hightailed it back west to the intersection of Ridgeway and Deertrack, then south a little on Ridgeway, then east on Westward Drive which then turns INTO Lakewood drive which took them all back to Highway 89 and the Ranch House Restaurant staging area where Bryan Smith and his 85 year old cousin received medical attention.

      According to his testimony… this was the LAST trip that Cordes made back into Glen Ilah.

      Even if he had been trying to get out to the Boulder Springs Ranch when he ran into Bryan Smith at that intersection of Deetrack Drive and Ridgeway Drive… he did not repeat the effort at that point.

      Bottom line: I really don’t think Cordes running into Bryan Smith exactly where he did was just sheer coincidence. There were a lot of places and a lot of other intersections where Gary Cordes could have been in Glen Ilah at that point… but there he was at the one just a few hundred feet away from the start of the driveway for the Boulder Springs Ranch when he almost literally ‘ran into” Bryan Smith standing in the middle of that intersection.

      I believe Cordes WAS trying to either get out to the Boulder Springs Ranch himself at that point in time… or at least see if it was still possible for anyone to get out there.

      I believe that if Cordes had NOT run into Bryan Smith at that intersection of Ridgeway Drive and Deertack Drive… he would have probably continued north on Ridgeway for that few extra hundred feet and *might* have then even attempted to go out to the Boulder Springs Ranch itself via that long dirt driveway.

      After this second “Bryan Smith and Cousin” rescue… Cordes’ didn’t go back into Glen Ilah. He stayed there at the Ranch House Restaurant along with everyone else.

      ** SUMMARY

      The question really is… was it an absolute COINCIDENCE where Cordes WAS when he ended up effecting those two ‘rescues’ that afternoon… or could they (perhaps) be an indication there was a ‘purpose’ to them both and a ‘destination’ that he had in mind before ( both times ) he was ‘interrupted’ by almost literally ‘running into’ residents that he would then need to evacuate.

      I’m going to say that the evidence indicates these two locations were NOT just a ‘coincidence’.

      On his FIRST trip into Glen Ilah… he very well COULD have been heading north on Manazanita because his destination was the ‘staging area’ for the dozer and the last known whereabouts of operator Paul Morin. He may have even thought some or all of Granite Mountain were there by then.

      On his SECOND trip into Glen Ilah… he very well COULD have been just a few hundred feet away from the Boulder Springs Ranch driveway when he encountered Bryan Smith because he was actually trying to get out to the Boulder Springs Ranch… or at least make sure Granite Mountain hadn’t gotten ‘caught’ somewhere on that long driveway itself.

      And Cordes might have been doing this because Tyson Esquibel did NOT do what he had asked him to do earlier… so now he was trying to do it himself.

      That’s how SURE Cordes might have been that Granite Mountain had either already made it to the Boulder Springs Ranch… or had actually been farther along than that ( as part of “the plan”? ) and either somewhere on the BSR driveway or even somewhere near the dozer staging area where Paul Morin and the dozer were last seen.

      Cordes was certainly concerned about the citizens of Glen Ilah… but he was VERY LIKELY doing everything he could at that moment to also find both Granite Mountain AND Paul Morin, the dozer operator… especially if they had all been part of some last-ditch-effort “plan” that had now gone horribly wrong.

      Cordes himself told ADOSH investigators how personally he felt about the chance there were fatalities “back there” in Glen Ilah… both Firefighters and Citizens…

      From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…

      “We assumed we had fatalities… We thought we had a, a fair amount of fatalities in there which obviously um, I felt was my responsibility”.

      Reply

      • WTKTT thank you SO MUCH for this..

        It’s really really really late, and I still need to spend a lot more time going over this, and that probably won’t happen until tomorrow.

        Trying to synchronize several timelines together inside of my head right now.

        I’m wondering how this syncs to Brian and Trew going in there, also.

        Also wondering how this connects to “everybody knowing,” by that time, that the Granite Mountain Hotshots had already deployed.

        Of course, at that time, he hadn’t actually heard those radio transmissions, he had just heard about them, and his response to having been told about that was “Bullshit!”

        I’m having a hard time imagining, all things considered, that by the time of that second trip into Glen Ilah he could have possibly thought that the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have been walking out in their full physicality via the Boulder Springs Ranch road.

        By then it was way past the time everybody knew the Granite Mountain Hotshots had deployed.

        Or maybe he was still thinking “Bullshit”?

        I really agree that he was probably heading up to the Boulder Springs Ranch on that second trip.

        But I’m thinking it was probably more with the idea of “Where TF are they????” than “I need to meet them coming out.”

        I can’t realistically imagine that by then, all things considered, his “Bullshit!” mindset was still operative.

        But maybe, on the other hand, it possibly still was?

        Hope (and delusion) springs eternal.

        And sometimes that’s a good thing. And sometimes it’s not.

        Reply

        • And sitting here thinking about this further…….

          Given the fact that he didn’t actually HEAR those radio transmissions that mostly everybody else did……….

          ……………..and thus might not have totally believed them….

          And given the “fog of war” and the whole thing about how humans don’t process exponentially escalating factors (ala the fatal Cramer Fire) all that well…………….

          It could have been possible that when he drove into Glen Ilah that second time, it WAS in hope that he would meet the Granite Mountain Hotshots coming out via that route.

          After what happened yesterday, which was a supremely historical day, my heart aches for Gary Cordes and Paul Musser and Roy Hall and everybody who set up the stage for this tragedy that happened almost two years ago. It really does.

          But that doesn’t even remotely lessen my solid opinion that the Truth of this catastrophe needs to come to light.

          So it doesn’t EVER happen again.

          Reply

          • >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> It could have been possible that when he drove into Glen
            >> Ilah that second time, it WAS in hope that he would meet
            >> the Granite Mountain Hotshots coming out via that route.

            I’m not sure he was even ‘processing’ all the ‘realities’ at that point.

            He had NOT heard that same radio traffic we have now ALL heard.
            His BK radio had crapped out… and he told ADOSH he has simply turned it off and thrown it on the seat of his truck.

            He was then only relying on the Motorola mounted in his truck and the one other Motorola handheld he had. Neither one had the A2G programmed at all so that’s why he didn’t hear ANY of the radio traffic recorded by Aaron Hulburd.

            So he was ONLY relying on what he had been told by Captain Reyes of Engine 59. “They got cut off and they deployed”.

            So he really COULD have been thinking they actually got “cut off” while they were on the driveway of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself.

            He really COULD have been thinking that they were lying right there on that driveway, somewhere, and in need of medical attention, and the sooner he could find them the better.

            It was just pure instinct.

            WHERE ARE THEY???

            Reply

      • Joy contacted Bryan Smith this morning with a long talk. Cordes was not the man who picked him up but someone in a green truck did.

        Reply

        • Copy that. Thank you, Sonny. See my reply to Joy’s post just directly below this one. If it wasn’t Bryan Smith that Cordes rescued, then according to Cordes’ testimony to ADOSH he performed an almost IDENTICAL rescue, and it did seem to be on Ridgeway Drive which is the road that becomes the driveway out to the Boulder Springs Ranch right after it crosses Deertrack Drive.

          Reply

      • at 6:40am I said I would contact Bryan to confirm above

        at 8:31am I contacted some by email that I called Brian before he went Pastor Well’s sermon at the Assembly of God

        I tried to post via cell on here IM—failed.
        so emailed.

        All I state is public information.
        Bryan had called Saturday the 29th 911 concerned about the fire as well as so many homeowners and were told it was under control and assured them all was A-Okay.

        Sunday the hospice called Bryan 3pm because Pearl Moore had lung cancer and to let them know if they decided to need assistance to just call them yet the electric went out which is tied to the landline so no phone.
        No electric on a hot day means inside home is HOT
        so when Bryan went outside and saw neighboring tall pine on fire up top and bushes burning and heavy thick smoke with no one in sight that he felt with no car and a 85 y,o, with lung cancer and he is not too hot health wise and no car better start heading out. As he walked out with Pearl he felt he was the last one in there. He never got a call or stop by from anyone to evacuate and deer track was already on fire when he left. Bryan was shocked HOW close the fire was because it was at a distance than all of a sudden bam his street is ON FIRE so we have always wanted Helms to Shrine area to be further investigated.
        Brian was not picked up near Deer Track or his home. A captain with slight bearded ages 44-54 saved his life not who was in article—Cordes—the man picked him up in a green Forestry truc.k. near Brent Yadon’s NOT near his home nor near Helm’s . Pearl was picked up by George DeLange’s home and they were delivered to the ranch house restaurant where ambulance was and Bryan was persistent and insisting to be brought by ambulance to Prescott. Bryan heard the delivery message they would need 19 ambulances andBryan had no idea why until laterbut his concern was getting him and Pearl to the hospital …so why would the media tie Bryan into the SAVING LIVES with Cordes when he did not save his life or pick him up…????

        Reply

          • Thank you, Joy.

            So… to be clear… Bryan Smith has now seen a picture of Gary Cordes and he is saying that is NOT the man who rescued him and Pearl on June 30, 2013?

            If that is the case… then it’s quite hard to fathom how AZCENTRAL could have run the article they did… complete with a VIDEO interview with Bryan Smith himself… and THEY are the ones who then published the story that Mr. Smith is definitely the person Cordes says he rescued in his ADOSH testimony…

            …but they never even bothered to do what you just did and simply SHOW Bryan Smith a photo of Gary Cordes?

            Wow.

            Reply

        • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 28, 2015 at 4:39 pm

          >> Joy A. Collura wrote…
          >>
          >> at 6:40am I said I would contact Bryan to confirm above
          >> at 8:31am I contacted some by email that I called Brian
          >> before he went Pastor Well’s sermon at the Assembly of God
          >>
          >> Brian was not picked up near Deer Track or his home.
          >> A captain with slight bearded ages 44-54 saved his life
          >> not who was in article—Cordes
          >>
          >> the man picked him up in a green Forestry truck. near
          >> Brent Yadon’s NOT near his home nor near Helm’s .
          >> Pearl was picked up by George DeLange’s home and they
          >> were delivered to the ranch house restaurant where
          >> ambulance was.

          Thank you, Joy. Please extend thanks to Bryan Smith as well.
          Sorry to hear that Pear has died since the Yarnell Fire happened.

          The article that was originally matching Cary Cordes’ own testimony ( which won him his “Firefighter of the Year” award ) to real people and real events is here…

          AZCENTRAL
          Mystery man rescued residents during Yarnell Hill Fire.
          Published: 10:44 a.m. MST March 31, 2014
          http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/arizona/2014/03/31/yarnell-hill-fire-mystery-man-rescued-residents/7101035/?from=global&sessionKey=&autologin=

          The article contains that in-person video interview with Bryan Smith himself, whose account of his rescue ( at that time ) matches Gary Cordes’ own testimony almost exactly… even though Bryan was never sure WHO it was that had rescued him and Pearl.

          At the time the “Firefighter of the Year” award was being given to Cordes and the article was written… Gary Cordes himself refused to be interviewed by the reporter(s).covering the AWARD ceremony.

          The article itself says…
          ——————————————————–
          This month, the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy honored Cordes with the 2013 Wildland Firefighter of the Year Award for rescuing residents.

          He declined interview requests from The Arizona Republic, citing ongoing legal issues surrounding the fire.
          ———————————————————

          So since the man receiving the award was refusing to be interviewed himself… the AZREPUBLIC put a blurb at the bottom of the article detailing how it was they were matching Gary Cordes’ ADOSH testimony with real people and events… ( Like Bryan and Pearl )…

          How the story was done
          ——————————————-
          Senior reporter Anne Ryman based this on her interviews with residents and an interview that Gary Cordes gave to investigators with the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health.

          The ADOSH interview transcripts and audio recordings were obtained through a public-records request. Radio-dispatch logs from the community of Congress, the Arizona Dispatch Center, the Arizona Department of Public Safety and the private Lifeline Ambulance service were also used to establish time frames, as well as Cordes’ activity log and the interagency Serious Accident Investigation report.
          ——————————————–

          And here is that ADOSH testimony from Cordes that the article ( and his “Firefighter of the Year” award ) was based on…

          From SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013

          ** THE FIRST RESCUE ( ON MANZANITA )…

          According the article that accompanied Cordes receiving his “Firefighter of the Year Award, the ‘two elderly people’ being referred to by Cordes in his ADOSH testimony were Bob and Ruth Hart.

          Gary Cordes’ own testimony to ADOSH…
          —————————————————————————-
          I drove up Manzanita Trail uh, structures on both sides of the road were on fire and I saw an elderly couple walking down the road and there was almost zero visibility in there and, and uh, with the smoke laying in there 40 plus mile an hour winds and two elderly people holding hands walking out in their pajamas, and um, so I pulled up, they asked me to uh, if they could please get a ride and I told them to get in the vehicle very abruptly and uh, assisted the elderly woman into the vehicle and the elderly gentleman got in and, and I took them back out to the Ranch Restaurant um, dropped them off with the crews…
          —————————————————————————-

          ** THE SECOND RESCUE ( ON RIDGEWAY )

          According the article that accompanied Cordes receiving his “Firefighter of the Year Award, the man who “flagged him down’ being referred to by Cordes in his ADOSH testimony was Bryan Smith, and the woman Smith had tried to carry out but ended up leaving her in the middle of he road was Smith’s 85 year old cousin.

          Gary Cordes’ own testimony to ADOSH…
          —————————————————————————–
          I re-entered the subdivision, went down Ridge Way, Came across a gentleman waving me down in the smoke, uh, told him to get into the vehicle, he said he could not leave the area. By this time I’m getting a little annoyed because of the, the the responses of why they can’t leave. He informed me he had a, he had a uh, handicapped uh, disable neighbor, elderly woman who was – he was trying to carry her out and he couldn’t, uh, he was unable to carry her any farther. It was obviously fairly emotional, during all of this. Um, at this time I asked him where she was, he pointed uh, on a road that was fairly unattainable, all of the structures on the north side were on fire. So I made an attempt to go down that road and uh, he advised me to be careful so I wouldn’t run her over. She was in the road, and she was. I picked her up, got her into the vehicle and, and uh, uh, unfortunately he op- he opened the other side of my vehicle that was full of burning embers, and I probably yelled something unkind to him, but got the vehicle shut up and, and uh, got out of there. So uh, we thought she was burned, he had some blisters to his face, um, got, got her over, put her in an ambulance at the uh, back at the Ranch Restaurant. That was the last uh, I didn’t go any farther back in after that.
          —————————————————————————–

          So if the account being given above for this ‘second’ rescue by Gary Cordes himself is NOT referring to Bryan Smith and his 85 year old cousin… then Cordes’ story is of another… almost IDENTICAL rescue… including the part where they had to go carefully down the road in order to not run over her where she had been left in the road.

          Even if Cordes is describing some other ( almost identical ) rescue… Cordes still says he went down “Ridgeway” the second time he entered Glen Ilah, which is still the road out to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          If Cordes’ was NOT the one who rescued Bryan and Pearl… do you know, or have you heard, of any OTHER ( almost identical ) rescue story somewhere in the Ridgeway Drive area, where Cordes told ADOSH the rescue HE performed took place?

          Reply

          • Apologies. Typo in first paragraph up above.

            Bryan Smith’s 85 year old cousin’s name was ‘Pearl’.

            First paragraph should have said…

            Thank you, Joy. Please extend thanks to Bryan Smith as well.
            Sorry to hear that Pearl has died since the Yarnell Fire happened.

            Reply

    • you have to love the posse jeep pics and the helicopters and such…and how about that fire right at Shrine to Sesame area. I want to thank all firefighters and homeowners that have shared their photos without a price tag and for free to properly assess this fire.

      I bow down to all that give their time and accounts to piece this fire

      Reply

  44. Well, I have two things to say regarding many of the recent posts. The first may only be of interest only to me because of my background of growing up in Prescott and because I am a born again Progressive, just like some people are born again Christians. And just like born again Christians I have a tendency to let my politics creep into some of my blogging and I have noticed I am the only one who does this, obviously the rest of you have more sense and self control than I do.

    Although I carry a burden that most of you probably don’t, an original sin that I am trying to atone for before I meet my maker. And now that I am an old (a young old man as Bob tells me) man that prospect looms closer each and every day. You see….it’s like this, when I was young and very stupid, I sent $20.00 to help Ronald Reagan get elected the first time he ran for President. And I am pretty sure that if there is a just God, he is going to send everybody who helped that bastard Reagan get elected President straight to hell because he was the one who started the war on the middle class that has all but destroyed it today. So…I have work to do before that glorious day comes…Hallelujah Jesus! I watched our America born rightfully elected President and Commander-In-Chief, President Barack Hussein Obama. give the eulogy for Reverend Clementa Pinckney yesterday and it was his greatest speech ever…Hallelujah Amen Sweet Baby Jesus! So…if you missed it you should look it up on YouTube and watch it…just sayin’.

    And once again, as I am so fond of saying, even though I have almost no tangible possessions (we downsized big time to be gypsies), I do have a very fair and equitable pension check that comes on the first of every month thanks to you, the good American people. So it is the rest of YOU PEOPLE (Tropic Thunder) I worry about, many of you are screwed and many more of you are going to be screwed in the future, so I fight for you. Your welcome.

    1. When I was growing up in Prescott, the Fann Ranch was the biggest thing around the area. Think John Chisum, Charles Goodnight and the King Ranches in Texas and New Mexico (Bruce King was governor of New Mexico when we first moved there.) except scale it down to Yavapai County size. They had a huge mansion (by Prescott standards back in the day) sitting on a big hill overlooking their ranch, which the town of Prescott Valley occupies today and continued out across that huge valley that sits between the mountains around Prescott and Mingus Mountain to the east.

    So, I don’t know it for a fact, but I am guessing that is where Representative Fann is coming from, which in my progressive rebel frame of mind is not a good thing. And if any of you have heard (hee, hee) of Arizona’s SB 1070 German Gestapo Show Me Your Papers Law, well THAT guy is Senator Steve Pierce another Prescott area mini me version of Chisum, Goodnight, and King who got his money the old fashioned way, he inherited it. Now tie all of that in with Rex Maughan and his mega ranch centered around Yarnell…do you see what we have here? Well…frankly I don’t either, but Yavapai and Arizona politics are up to no good, of that we can be sure (Men In Black).

    2. Now, this one is not such a long trip down a rabbit hole but it may still be a be a stretch…I don’t know? Everybody (meaning especially you Marti) has really been on the Blue Ridge Hotshots case because most of them spent most of that tragic day laying around lickin’ their nuts instead of fightin’ fire. What if THEY don’t want us to find out that the reason Blue Ridge didn’t move to engage the fire by going to the backside of Yarnell to back fire the hasty dozer line was because they did opt for the Turn Down Protocol and that’s why THEY went to the GMIHC to ask them to attempt their insane bushwhack down the Canon del Muerto to the Valle de la Muerte?

    Nobody would want the masses to know that…right? And even though Blue Ridge did the right and sane thing, that is not something they would even want to talk about, which would make the gag order by Uncle Sam easy to enforce because those boys don’t want to talk to the media or even be photographed by the media in the first place. So…

    Reply

    • Well… as far as evidence goes… there IS some testimony from Musser that SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself told him Blue Ridge was simply ‘not available’ ( to do something Musser wanted? ) at the same time Musser himself had just been told by Marsh that GM was “committed to the ridge” and also not available for whatever it was Musser was trying to round up a Type 1 Hotshot crew for circa 4:42 PM.

      There is no evidence of Blue Ridge ever being ‘asked’ to do anything other than what their final assignment was before they self-evacuated. That assignment was to ‘improve’ that dozer push on the Cutover Trail that dozer operator Paul Morin had completed.

      Here is that “availability check’ moment again.. in Musser’s own words.

      NOTE: This moment was not mentioned at ALL in the Arizona Forestry’s SAIT Investigation Notes. This “availability check” moment only came out months later when Paul Musser was being interviewed by ADOSH.

      ALSO NOTE: The way Musser tells this, with his ‘at that point’ reference and his PAST TENSE referenced that he “called” Granite… the way to read his testimony here is that he recalls having made his “availability check” with Marsh BEFORE he met with Cordes on the side of the road. Only when he was finally face-to-face with Cordes did the then do what Marsh apparently told him to do on the radio and Musser then asked Cordes about Blue Ridge’s “availability”.

      From Paul Musser’s one-and-only ADOSH interview on August 16, 2013…

      Q2 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH investigator
      A = OPS2 Paul Musser
      —————————————————————————–
      1412 A: Uh, got on the 89 to a vantage point and met with Gary Cordes. Face to face
      1413 with Gary. As far as – oh at that point, I’d also called Granite on their radio.
      1414 Because Todd was still tied up with Model Creek. I called Granite on the
      1415 radio and asked if them and Blue Ridge were still committed on the ridge?
      1416 They said that they were committed on the ridge. But Blue Ridge was on the
      1417 bottom and may, may be available. I talked with Gary, he said no their
      1418 committed to, uh, hold – to prepping and hold the dozer line.
      1419
      1420 Q2: You’re talking about Blue Ridge?
      1421
      1422 A: Yes, Blue Ridge.
      1423
      1424 Q2: Okay.
      1425
      1426 A: And that Granite was still committed in the black…
      1427
      1428 Q2: Okay.
      ————————————————————————-

      So according to OPS2 Paul Musser… he did “check about Blue Ridge” after he got off the radio with Marsh… and it was SPGS1 Gary Cordes who then (supposedly) told Musser that Blue Ridge was still ‘busy’ working on that Cutover Trail dozer line that connected the Sesame Clearing area to the Shrine Road Youth camp area.

      The timeframe for the “availability check’ that Musser made with GM is definitely in the 4:42 to 4:44 PM timerange… just moments after Brian Frisby was informing Marsh and Steed that he was now ‘rescuing’ Brendan and did Marsh want the GM vehicles moved?

      Musser’s callout to Marsh on the TAC channel came at exactly 4:42 PM and was captured in one of the Panebaker Air Study videos.

      But only Musser’s callout of “Division Alpha, Operations, Musser” was captured.

      Marsh was actually ‘busy’ on the radio at the moment completing that conversation with Frisby about moving the GM vehicles. It is assumed that the moment Marsh finished that radio conversation with Frisby that he then got with Musser and this “availability check” conversation took place.

      The assumption here has always been that Musser was doing this “availability check” on GM as he was driving down from the Sickles Road area… and that radio conversation with Marsh was over before he then ran into Cordes on the side of Highway 89, somewhere just north of where Shrine road meets Highway 89.

      Everything you suggest above is possible… but it really does look like Brian Frisby himself was pretty much clueless’ about anyone even WANTING his crew to do anything other than try and improve that “Cutover Trail”… and then they all “self-evacuated” to the Ranch House Restaurant.

      Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball is another story altogether, though.

      He DEFINITELY testifies to having been given this “scout emergency dozer line” assignment by Gary Cordes.

      In his OWN Unit Log… Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball said…

      1600 ( 4:00 PM ): BRIHC disengaging to safety zone.
      BRIHC one informs Structure Group One They are pushing engines everyone
      out of subdivision. (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
      Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line
      to southwest of Yarnell.
      Acquire ATV: travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.

      Reply

      • Two important points to make about this all-important testimony from Blue Ridge Hotshot Ball about Cordes telling him to “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah”…

        1) There is no evidence Ball himself did any kind of TDWAO. To the contrary. According to his own testimony he basically told Cordes “Aye, aye, sir!”… and he got right on the assignment… to the point where he went to the trouble to borrow an ATV to better accomplish Cordes’ assignment.

        2) If Cory Ball’s time estimation of about 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) is correct… then this matches exactly the mysterious and ongoing “When did GM actually decide to leave the black?” timing consideration. Even the SAIR established that at 3:55 PM, the men were “at rest” in the safe black ( as per MacKenzie’s photos and videos )… but then they were “on the move” and heading out of the black by 4:05 PM.

        So that ever-mysterious moment when Steed told the men to “gaggle up” and head for the Boulder Springs Ranch MUST have happened in a 10 minute window between 3:55 PM and 4:05 PM.

        Right smack in the middle of that 10 minute window ( at 4:00 PM ) we have Cory Ball testifying that is when SPGS1 Gary Cordes suddenly had this NEW IDEA and Cordes was ordering him to go scout a NEW emergency dozer line to try and protect Glen Ilah.

        Marsh and Steed would have actually HEARD Cordes give Ball that order.
        It happened over a TAC radio channel.

        Reply

        • Forgot to mention… there’s a lot of “Cordes did this” and “Cordes knew that” and “Cordes told Cory Ball” up above… but that’s because the above is just a breakdown of some pretty specific statements in the evidence record.

          I am just as convinced as Marti is that it was Paul Musser himself who was driving Cory Ball over to the Yarnell Fire Station to GET that ATV so Ball could carry out Cordes’ “order” to scout emergency dozer line.

          That means it is “not credible” to think that OPS2 Paul Musser was not only aware of this “emergency” dozer line plan that Cordes seems to have set in motion circa 4:00 PM… but was, in fact, one of the authors of “the plan”.

          I also stated below that as far as “authorship” goes… it could have been a TRIAD and Eric Marsh himself ( despite what he told Musser in the “availability check” at 4:42 ) could have been the “originator” of the plan himself.

          And I’m not even sure Cory Ball would have known that, even if he could be re-interviewed and asked more questions about this testimony in his own Unit Log.

          All Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball might have known was that Cordes was telling him to go “scout out” this emergency dozer line.

          Cory Ball, himself, might have had no idea where this “last-ditch-effort plan” might have actually originated.

          For all we know… Marsh and Musser might have exchanged cellphone numbers during that “availability” check at 4:42 PM… and subsequent communications between them were now “private” and not going over the radio.

          As far as we know… neither the SAIT nor ADOSH ever requested the cellphone records of OPS2 Paul Musser or SPGS1 Gary Cordes.

          Reply

          • Followup…

            Apologies. I think I killed the King’s English up above and didn’t really say what I meant to. I was trying to say that if Musser really is the one driving Ball over to YFD to get that ATV… then Musser MUST have known all about “the plan” that Cory Ball was “executing” on ( as per Cordes’ orders ) and was also most likely one of the “authors” of “the plan” itself.

            Reply

            • WTKTT,

              Well…reading Norb’s comment and putting it together with everything you, Marti, Bob and others have been working on does make a lot of tactical sense to me if you disregard the safety aspect of moving the GMIHC into place to back fire the dozer line.

              Hell…it could even have worked if they would have tried it earlier, we did the exact same thing and on the Clay Springs Fire on the Fishlake National Forest in 1983 and saved the little town of Oak City from a grass fire that had a huge flaming front with tremendous flame lengths.

              BUT, the miscellaneous overhead, the dozer and the Santa Fe Hotshots were all in the same place at the same time when somebody came up with the idea at the last minute and then it was rock and roll. We had just stepped off the bus from the airport and found ourselves standing in front of the flaming fire front being pushed by high winds right at us and the town.

              I would really like to know more about what efforts were made to reposition Blue Ridge for this possible assignment. And I would really like to do some interviews with a stack of Garrity waiver forms and see everybody’s cell phone records.

              Although once again, and I hate to have to keep saying it, Jesse Steed had the obligation to just say no. But this angle is a very interesting contributing factor and I do think it would be something the brotherhood would be highly motivated to cover up.

              Reply

              • >> Gary Olson said…
                >>
                >> Although once again, and I hate to have to keep
                >> saying it, Jesse Steed had the obligation to just say no.

                Yes, he did.

                Even if it came down to telling Marsh “If this is a job breaker… then on Monday you can look for me over at the Crossfit Gym. I’ll be over there making other people dance with Pukie the Clown if you’re looking for me.”…

                …then that’s what he should have said.

                I think this has been said before as we discuss the evidence that points to this possible “last-ditch-effort plan”… but we have to be careful to remember that even if it IS true… there are TWO different aspects to it…

                1) The STRATEGIC decision making.
                2) The TACTICAL decision making.

                As you just said… given the right amount of time and resources… pushing a dozer line and firing it out is a STANDARD TECHNIQUE. It’s not “crazy town” until it’s actually “crazy town” to even consider it.

                So the STRATEGY itself doesn’t kill anyone.

                But the TACTICAL EXECUTION might.

                There’s no doubt that whatever TACTICAL operation Marsh and GM even THOUGHT they were executing… they blew it. They died.

                As for whether there was some “crazy town” STRATEGY involved which led to the TACTICAL errors… that’s the mystery we’re still trying to solve.

                I believe there WAS… and the full story on that has yet to be told.

                Reply

                  • Which is exactly why, as you asked me downstream:

                    “Why do you think Musser’s involvement in this is the reason why it was all gathered together and put in an envelope and sealed and stashed away in a very big locked filing cabinet?”

                    At that point, on that fire, Musser was essentially second in command. And, given that the one first in command was clueless about what was going on, well………….

                    And as soon as SAIT interviewed the Blue Ridge Four and heard way more than an earful that didn’t fit their pre-conceived narrative that nobody did anything wrong on this fire and it was all a great mystery and an impossible-to-deal-with fire that caused the GM Hotshots to get killed, instead of a stupid and extremely dangerous last-minute hail-mary plan co-conceived of and co-implemented by that effectively-first-in-command Paul Musser………………

                    ………….to me it seems pretty obvious.

                    Reply

                    • No, I don’t think you are missing something, I just wanted to ask instead of guess at what you were thinking.

                    • Remember the SAIT was charged with not naming names. Due to law suits and there fore not pursuing a possible link to the crew being moved to implement a plan there for do not reference it in any way although there are statements that should have made a investigator highly interested in the information we have uncovered and I am sure they knew it and did not follow up on it as to why the crew moved to close to possible Law Suits.
                      That is if this scenario can be proven as fact there is a ways to go here.

  45. Norb Szczurek said on

    June 15, 2015 at 10:21 pm

    “I totally agree with Bob – bad plan and too late. However, I have said in earlier chapters that although not “text book “conditions, they wanted to get that emergency dozer line in and have a “shot crew” to fire it ( the Hail Mary pass). Or at least get some additional black to add to the width of the dozer line. What else would they need them for and what did they have to loose? They were going to get their asses kicked, for numerous reasons starting back on the failed initial attack ( wont go there again because it still pisses me off) Shot crews are known for their ability to put fire on the ground under extreme conditions. Again, I am not saying this would have been a “text book” operation but I think they may have been thinking they (Ops, take your pick of which one) had no other options. I have believed for a long time that is what the GMIHC were moving to do – still don’t believe that is a viable reason to do what they did but I believe that is why they left the safe black.

    So, at who’s request? That I don’t know, I do have my suspicions (Willis?). But the bottom line remains – the crew sup is responsible for the safety of his crew. Although Gary has identified some things that may of contributed to the human side of all of this.”

    Someone asked me what I thought about this in an email, but I had missed it so I went back and looked it up and this is not something I had every thought of, but I think this makes a lot of sense and it is now my leading theory as to why they left the black.

    It never made any sense to me for them to leave the black to help with evacuations, since they were on foot, but that was the only thing I could think of, but if you could combine hotshot back firing with a quick dozer line, the plan makes tactical sense to me.

    Now of course as Bob said, too little…too late and obviously extremely risky to go to such extremes to move the GMIHC into place and certainly in hindsight a very, very, bad idea, but at least I can understand why they would think of it and want to try it since it would have been the only thing that could possibly have saved Glen Ilah and the backside of Yarnell.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing, this is now going in my Yarnell Hill Chapter as my leading theory why they left the safe black unless someone comes up with something better…thanks Norb!

      Reply

      • Just to be clear, I still view the human factors as critical in the decision making process, but I think the human factors would play into why they (Marsh) would be willing to risk so much to even attempt this plan, but I do think this plan very well may be what they were shooting for.

        Reply

        • It is very possible and puts weight on Cordes shoulders.
          Cordes could have also confided in Willis thus they could not sit in the black and moved to reengage??? Just some added thoughts.
          .

          Reply

          • Yes, that’s what I think. And can you imagine what hero’s they would have been to America if the plan would have worked? It probably would have even made it impossible for the inbred bean counters on the Prescott City Council to abolish their jobs and Willis’ and Marsh’s dream that turned into everyone’s worst nightmare.

            Reply

        • Paul Musser was also involved in this, I firmly believe.

          Ever since I painstakingly figured out (two weeks ago tomorrow) that it was most likely him who dropped Cory Ball off at the Yarnell Fire Department to acquire their ATV to ride into Glen Ilah to tie in with the dozer operator and check out the possibility of putting in the dozer line.

          I still don’t believe Willis had any (overt) involvement in it. At least we still have no evidence of that.

          And, waking up and reading this cold (actually I’m still not really “woke,” just drinking coffee to get there), I find myself thinking, “Why didn’t they just ask Blue Ridge???”

          And remembering that we kinda sorta discussed that downstream a few times. Bob said (and I’m paraphrasing, so if I mis-paraphrase please correct me) that he thought Blue Ridge was still “committed” to firing off the dozer line nearer to the Youth Camp. And that THIS plan was connected to THAT plan.

          I said I disagreed, because, given the timing, by the time Cordes and Musser were starting to implement THIS plan, Blue Ridge had already abandoned THAT plan and was starting to evacuate from the Youth Camp.

          But there still could be a connection.

          I also firmly believe that it was Musser’s involvement in this that is the reason why it was all gathered together and put in an envelope and sealed and stashed away in a very big locked filing cabinet.

          Unfortunately, for the ones who decided to do that, they missed a few crumbs. But it worked for almost two years.

          A few crumbs which we, almost two years later, starting with two dots provided by Joy, were FINALLY able to piece together (after a LOT of attempts over the past two years to do it) with a number of dots provided by Cory Ball into enough of a timeline to figure this out.

          Reply

          • Sorry for mixing my metaphors on that last paragraph. Totally inelegant of me.

            But you get the picture.

            Reply

          • Marti, yes, it seems like Norb’s theory could tie in nicely with the theory you have been working on, but I do have one question right now.

            Why do you think Musser’s involvement in this is the reason why it was all gathered together and put in an envelope and sealed and stashed away in a very big locked filing cabinet?

            Reply

      • Thanks to Norb and Gary for making that clear–why would they go down into that canyon when the odds were three bullets in a six shooter roulette? That makes sense about a dozer line in progress and they needed that shot crew to do the burn back along the dozer line as we saw on the video of drip torches along Sesame St above the Shrine where it was dirt. This we do know for certain–The dozer had hit ground at Kathy Hunter’s house because it did back into her Dad’s house on the extremity of the North end of Glen Isla. How much dozing was accomplished there is up in the air unless Morin comes forward with the answer. If Morin spills the beans then we will know who actually ordered him in there and that person would have also ordered the GMHS to descend to that expected dozer line. That person might have been plural considering that it might have been hard to convince even Marsh who declared we are in the black so why not send the Blue Ridge there? Sounds like the Blue Ridge already had the fire figured out as it was–a dangerous out of control wildfire that had a storm coming in from Prescott direction that took away any chance of predicting what the wind would do. Credit goes to Blue Ridge for saving not only Donut but also for undoubtedly keeping the whole Blue Ridge crew intact.

        The human factors of breaking or causing people to break every rule in the book for fire fighting has to be addressed– Dr. Ted Putnam will have his good input on this one for sure.

        This covers many of the things I have begun to realize about the situation at hand.

        In simple terms we saw greed, chance for more government funds, opportunity to elevate status among the fire fighting circle, ego trips, faulty thinking, disregard for safety rules, confusion and lack of leadership or leadership gone amok, lazy people to put out a fire from day 1, and a number of things that legitimate Type 1 firefighters, smoke jumpers and knowledgeable fire death investigators will reveal.

        Not it seems to be all about this memorial for 19. Who is the construction company owner that will put it in? Karen Fenn owns the company–perhaps they are going to do it at just cost. It will give them a good name, but why put it here in YARNELL when all those men are buried in PRESC””OTT. They are Prescott residents and I can bet had they been killed in Idaho then we would not see all the ballyhoo about a memorial and their memorial would be where it should be–in PRESCOTT. Several locals will be hurt by a memorial out there and are already bothered by lights, etc.. Thousands are being spent so that a few widows and I think very few will have that place cordoned off to themselves. None of this makes sense considering the fact that these men worked for the US, not just Arizona but in a sense they worked for Prescott City, their home base.

        Now we have a memorial for the 19. What about the many that died since then. That fire took its tool on more than 50 beside the 19 that died. Our Yarnell memorial says that the property where they died should have been set aside for Yarnell and opened up to the public and made into a fire fighting training area so that fire fighters could learn what not to do and how to stay alive and how to disobey orders when your life is going to be compromised for no good reason and because of fallacious thinking or some boss’s ego trip. It will teach the fire fighting profession to start clamping down on hiring of unqualified leaders in the profession as well.

        Now that Yarnell memorial or black wall of wailing will include not only the deaths of 19 fire men who dared or were caused to dare and lost or both, but 50 innocent lives that have been shortened since the fire. Joy and I are now doing a research again on the names of all 50 and if possible the reason for every death. I believe that every compromised person in the Yarnell area is connected to the fire that could have and should have been quenched that Friday it started. If you don’t believe that retardant is deadly go read how 40,000 gallons dumped into the Fall river killed 20,000 fish. I would suspect they got the same treatment we at Yarnell did. Satellite images showed the high concentrations of NH3 in the Yarnell area after the retardant drops of I am told as much as 300,000 gallons. I suspect the fish died from lack of O2 in the water that would have been absorbed by the nitrates in the water. It created a dead zone and perhaps the NH3 killed the fish’s lung tissue the same as it killed lung tissue here in the Yarnell area. Think this is far fetched–how many wildland firefighters have to retire due to smoke inhalation and that is contaminated with fire retardant chemicals to escalate the problem. Why has there been no long time study on these retardants–I rather see Yarnell burn to the ground than see that 50 lives are lost due to chemical contamination.

        I do hope after all something will come of an EPA or WHO investigation on the problem of health issues here. This of course goes against the will and hopes of a multimillion dollar industry in retardant drops and certain circles that benefit from the drops and millions put into them. Maybe those millions would be healthier and better used in building defensible space so that wildland fires can have their way in certain cases–especially manzanita areas where a burn off is really a necessary benefit to the land.

        Reply

      • Well…the internet say’s, “Norb Szczurek, Retired Division Chief, North Lake Tahoe Fire Protection District” although that is a very common name in many parts of the country, hee, hee, why, I have 3 Norb Szczureks on my Christmas card list alone.

        Reply

    • would have to decline the mascot name “Smokey” due to 18 U.S. Code § 711 – “Smokey”—

      We can change the way it is spelled though-

      I do not want jail time. soft smiles.

      THE LAW: (((Whoever, except as authorized under rules and regulations issued by the Secretary of Agriculture after consultation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council, knowingly and for profit manufactures, reproduces, or uses the character “Smokey”, originated by the Forest Service, United States Department of Agriculture, in cooperation with the Association of State Foresters and the Advertising Council for use in public information concerning the prevention of forest fires, or any facsimile thereof, or the use of the name “Smokey” shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than six months, or both. )))

      Reply

      • also would have to decline “Bambi” due to Disney copyright and these two (((https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barbi_Twins))) only got away with it because they are twins…

        Some now will POP that has never been used that ties into this here Yarnell Hill Fire discussion board…for now keep it simple…”come here little one”

        Whatever name it becomes will become the mascot and a postcard too.

        Reply

  47. **
    ** DARRELL WILLIS WILL SPEAK PUBLICLY AT CEREMONY IN YARNELL

    Reply to Sonny post on June 23, 2015 at 12:46 pm

    >> Sonny said…
    >>
    >> The locals are cleaning up the memorial ground across the street
    >> from Yarnell Fire Department,. The nice new white hummer is
    >> cleaned and polished so Chief Ben Palm looks good there.

    The Yarnell Hill Recovery Group has now announced the official ‘plans’ for the second anniversary there in Yarnell.

    There will be TWO events. One this coming Sunday and then another one on Tuesday, June 30 itself.

    Former Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis is one of the ‘speakers’ there in Yarnell at the first event this coming Sunday, which is actually the official ‘dedication’ of that other memorial park there inside Yarnell itself at the corner of Shrine Road and Highway 89.

    BOTH events take place at this ‘memorial park’ at Shrine Road and Hwy 89.

    Here’s the press release from the “Yarnell Hill Recovery Group”…

    Second Anniversary of Yarnell Hill Fire
    http://www.arizonahighways.com/?q=blog/recovery-group-mark-second-anniversary-yarnell-hill-fire

    From the Press Release itself…
    ——————————————————————————————-
    Yarnell will commemorate the second anniversary of the Yarnell Hill Fire with two events, both to be held at the Memorial Park Site at 22556 S. Highway 89, at the corner of Shrine Rd. and State Route 89.

    On Sunday, June 28, the ceremony will begin at 1:00 pm, and will honor the loss of the 19 members of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew. The event will include music, and brief statements by local leaders and former Division Chief of the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew, Darrell Willis. Lew Theokas, the grandfather of Garret Zuppiger one of the fallen Hotshots, will also make brief comments. The second anniversary remembrance event includes a groundbreaking ceremony for the Memorial Park, which was donated to the Yarnell Fire District through the efforts of the Yarnell Hill Recovery Group. Several commemorative gifts to be incorporated into the park will also be presented. The event is expected to last approximately one hour.

    On Tuesday, June 30, the ceremony begins at 4:00 pm. It will focus only on the 19 firefighters and is structured so that those in attendance will participate in the county-wide moment of silence at 4:42 pm.

    The public and media are invited to the Sunday event; the Tuesday ceremony is intended primarily for local residents and those immediately impacted by the fire.
    ——————————————————————————————-

    >> Sonny also said…
    >>
    >> I hear Mr. Palm is running for mayor now

    Yes, Yarnell Fire Chief Ben Palm is running for the title of “Honoray Mayor” of Yarnell, but it’s not what you would think.

    It’s actually just part of a clever fund-raising campaign to benefit individual ’causes’ and the Yarnell Chamber of Commerce.

    People can ‘pretend’ to run for “Honorary Mayor” and try to raise money but they are actually just ‘pledged’ to a CAUSE of their choosing and whatever money they raise… 90 percent goes to their CAUSE of choice and the other 10 percent goes to the Yarnell Chamber of Commerce.

    Chief Ben Palm is “running” on behalf of the Yarnell Hill Memorial Park group and they memorial site they already have planned in Yarnell itself there at the corner of Shrine Road and HIghway 89.

    Chielf Palm has already ‘pledged’ that whatever money he raises during his ‘campaign’ will go towards the memorial to help pay for the landscaping and the flagstone needed to complete the park.

    Even if he WINS the ‘election’… he just gets a ‘badge’ saying he is the “Honorary Mayor”. There are no actual ‘duties’ associated with the ‘honor’.

    Reply

    • Joy and I will most likely be there to record Mr. Willis. He you know was a testifier against Joy when they were trying to restrict her human rights of being able to hike and to shut her up as well. What happened to free speech in this country–It is almost as the British did with the Colonists–If you are for the Crown and not freedom then you can use any petty excuse to persecute others. False accusations are accepted in the Prescott court simply by influence of those connected to the cronies.

      Now, we the people know that the Yarnell fire department is best used as an EMT service. Joy wants to add a pumper to the Hummer but I am not sure those fellows would be anxious to use it in case of a fire. Look how that system refused to put out the death fire–and I mean death because it not only includes the 19 but also we just today heard of Don Anderson’s lung related death today making it an even 50 elderly folks dead — That is 69 deaths I attribute to the fire. Yes there may have been as many as 10 that could have died of natural causes and those even could have been escalated by the fire situation. But 50 in a population of approximately a thousand since the fire?

      Yes I think Chief Ben Palm who we know to have great experience in EMT might be doing the right thing making it more oriented toward EMT. They do good work after all there–The workers frequent the Senior Center in Yarnell and are ready to check blood pressure and oxygen levels–something that might save a life after all. But for the firefighting business, especially anything local, a band of well informed citizens able bodied enough to attack a miniscule fire right off makes more sense than a bunch of firemen that can’t make up their minds whether to put out a budding disaster or not. Shit the local men would have been there in a heartbeat–maybe 20 or 30 men if they knew that they were not going to be protected by their local fire fighters.

      This reminds me of Dolan Springs– that fire department never put out a fire in the 8 years I was resident there that I knew of anyway. So I asked the local firre chief there why not? He told me they were trained to contain a fire, not put them out.

      Reply

      • REPLY TO:
        Sonny says
        June 26, 2015 at 1:24 pm

        Joy and I will most likely be there to record Mr. Willis. FOR? I GUESS WE COULD- DID NOT EVEN PHASE ME- DO YOU ALL HERE WANT TO HEAR IT OTHERWISE MAY JUST PASS—

        He you know was a testifier against JoyI DISAGREE IN A SENSE HERE. WILLIS FOUND IT TO BE A PLEASURE TO FINALLY HAVE MET US THE HIKERS FACE TO FACE AND SAID THAT 1-9-15 10:40AM AND I THINK HE WAS SHARING ON THE STAND HEARSAY FROM ANOTHER THAT SEEM TO BE ALLOWED IN THAT PRESCOTT COURT ROOM AND THERE IS NO DOUBT IN MY MIND THAT HIS WORDS USED AS TESTIMONY WAS INDEED HEARSAY FROM ANOTHER AND SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ADMISSIBLE AT ALL…THE WHOLE REFLECTING BACK AND LOOKING AT MY PRISTINE BACKGROUND AND THE WAY I WAS BEING PORTRAYED IN THAT COURT ROOM FELT LIKE A MOCK MADE UP SITUATION TO ME TO KIND OF SHAKE ME UP FOR SOME REASON NOT YET FIGURED THAT OUT BUT I FOUND THE TREATMENT ESPECIALLY MY CHARACTER A LEVEL OF ABUSE OF THIS COURT BUT WHO AM I JUST SOME HOUSEWIFE AND DESERT WALKER THAT HAD LAW CLASSES IN HIGH SCHOOL; STREET LAW WAS MY FAVORITE BUT EVEN THEN I NEVER TOOK A SERIOUS INTEREST IN IT BECAUSE IT IS ALL A DEBATE AND TWISTS AND SHADOWS FROM MY PERSEPCTIVE VERSUS PURITY—HORSE SHIT WORLD IN MY VIEW PLUS I CANNOT REMEMBER THE LAST TIME I HEARD “JUSTICE WAS SERVED”… when they were trying to restrict her human rights of being able to hike THAT WAS IN THE PAPERS I WAS SERVED THAT SUNDAY SONNY- THE HEARING RELEASED IT TO STATE LAND TO HANDLE AND THEY DID WITH A MAP AND LETTER THE VERY NEXT DAY—and to shut her up as well.SHUT ME UP FROM WHAT? I AM JUST NOT ALLOWED TO MENTION ONE TOPIC. THE JUDGE LIFTED THE PUBLIC MEETING RESTRICTION THAT WAS IN PAPERS I WAS SERVED- What happened to free speech in this countryTRUE SONNY—TRUE—BECAUSE HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE FREE SPEECH OF YCSO SGT ASHBY, KRISTEE LEWIS AND CHIEF BEN PALM AND ERROL EASTWOOD I WOULD OF NEVER SAID ANYTHING ONLINE ON ANY PERSON BUT IT WAS GETTING VERY OLD TO HEAR MISINFORMATION ESPECIALLY FROM PROFESSIONAL AUTHORITY ROLES SO YES I WAS FRUSTRATED AND SHARED IT HERE–It is almost as the British did with the Colonists–If you are for the Crown and not freedom then you can use any petty excuse to persecute others. False accusations are accepted in the Prescott court simply by influence of those connected to the cronies.I DISAGREE HERE. I DO THINK THERE IS A TIGHT KNIT IN THAT SMALL TOWN YET I THINK USING FALSE ACCUSATIONS IS INCORRECT BECAUSE I DO NOT KNOW IF YOU HEARD THE HEARING SONNY YET I WAS UNDER THE IMPRESSION THE PERSON DID OR DOES FEEL THAT WAY SO WHAT IS DONE IS DONE AND SIX MONTHS MORE TO GO YET IN MY HUMBLE OPINION—“UNJUST”

        Now, we the people know that the Yarnell fire department is best used as an EMT service.TRUE!

        Joy wants to add a pumper to the Hummer
        NOT TRUE- AS WILLIS SHARED TO ME END OF LAST YEAR THE BEST VEHICLE WOULD BE A 3/4-1 TON PICK-UP WITH SLIDE IN PUMP UNIT THAT IS SELF CONTAINED CARRYING 125 GALLONS OF WATER AND HAS SMALL PUMP WITH HOSE AND BASIC WILDLAND TOOLS TO CONTAIN SMALL FIRES- I WANT THE HUMMER SOLD AND POSTED IT ON BULLETING BOARDS—I HAVE HAD NEUTRAL FROM BUSINESS OWNERS TO WAY POSITIVE FROM THE REST FROM THE FLYERS AND NOT YET ANY NEGATIVES—I EMAILED FLYER TO SOME OF YOU ON HERE— but I am not sure those fellows would be anxious to use it in case of a fire.WELL IT DEPENDS WHERE AND HOW BIG THE FIRE? Look how that system refused to put out the death fire–and I mean death because it not only includes the 19 but also we just today heard of Don Anderson’s lung related death today making it an even 50 elderly folks dead THIS PART IS DISAPPOINTING PART FOR ME BECAUSE I SPENT TOO MANY HOURS GATHERING EVERY NAME AND ONE EVENT AND I NO LONGER HAVE IT BUT THE NAME COUNT WOULD RANGE BETWEEN 40-50 NAMES AND I WILL REDO IT POSSIBLY TO HAVE ACCURATE NUMBER BECAUSE SONNY WANTS TO ALWAYS TALK ABOUT THE RETARDANT SO IT WAS NOT SIMPLE OR FAST IT WAS A TIME CONSUMING PROJECT I DID AND SONNY SAID HE COULD JUST GO TO THE OBITS AND SEE BUT I KNEW AND KNOW THIS COMMUNITY SO IT TAKES ME TO DO IT BECAUSE I KNOW WHO MOVED AND THEN DIED OR WHO STAYED AND DIED…— That is 69 deaths I attribute to the fire. Yes there may have been as many as 10 that could have died of natural causes and those even could have been escalated by the fire situation. But 50 in a population of approximately a thousand since the fire?IF YOU ARE SERIOUS SONNY I CAN LET GO OF THE SOUR SPOT ON THIS TOPIC AND HELP HERE BUT I JUST DO NOT WANT A REPEAT WHERE I ENED UP DOING IT THAN ONE EVENT LOSE IT ALL—IF I CAN HAVE A COMMITMENT THERE FROM YOU THAN YES I CAN REDO THIS AREA FOR PROPER UPDATE

        Yes I think Chief Ben Palm who we know to have great experience in EMT might be doing the right thing making it more oriented toward EMT. MY BEEF IS THE HUMMER AND THAT THERE WAS BETTER CANDIDATES AND MORE QUALIFIED RIGHT HERE LOCALLY BUT THEY NABBED A PRESCOTT VALLEY EMT BEN PALM AND JUST PINNED HIM CHIEF AND IF I HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH IT AFTER WHAT BOB KRAMER TOLD ME I WILL MAKE SURE THE VOTES DO NOT GO TO HIM FOR HONORARY MAYOR BECAUSE I GAVE THE MAN THE OPPORTUNITY TO REMEDY IT AND SIT DOWN WITH ME YET HE DECLINED THAT INVITE—They do good work after all there–The workers frequent the Senior Center in Yarnell and are ready to check blood pressure and oxygen levels–something that might save a life after all. But for the firefighting business, especially anything local, a band of well informed citizens able bodied enough to attack a miniscule fire right off makes more sense than a bunch of firemen that can’t make up their minds whether to put out a budding disaster or not. Shit the local men would have been there in a heartbeat–maybe 20 or 30 men if they knew that they were not going to be protected by their local fire fighters. I THINK YOU CAN BE ARRESTED OR FINED IF YOU DID SONNY IN THIS MODERN WORLD BECAUSE YOU HAVE TO BE CERTIFIED TO DO THAT—ALL LIABILITY STUFF…I KNOW YOU CAN’T DO IT BUT IF YOU DID YOU WOULD BE ACCOUNTABLE BUT NOONE IS IN THIS YHF AND THAT IS WEIRD…

        This reminds me of Dolan Springs– that fire department never put out a fire in the 8 years I was resident there that I knew of anyway. So I asked the local firre chief there why not? He told me they were trained to contain a fire, not put them out.SAME IN CONGRESS BUT THERE IS ALOT OF THAT I DO UNDERSTAND- SAFETY MATTERS…

        Reply

        Reply

  48. **
    ** ARIZONA STATE PARKS CAN ONLY BID $304,000 FOR THE DEPLOYMENT SITE LAND

    Since the Governor’s announcement this afternoon… the MSM has picked up on it and the ‘new name’ for the deployment site land is being widely reported.

    MOST of these MSM articles have picked up on the fact that regardless of this ‘announcement’… the Arizona Parks department doesn’t even OWN the land yet… and they are only “hoping” that no one else shows up to outbid them.

    The Prescott Daily Courier has already published their own ‘update’ on this and it includes an interview with Arizona State Parks Executive Director Sue Black.

    As a result of this interview… Sue Black reveals a few important ‘points’.

    1. It WILL be Arizona State Parks representatives doing the actual bidding for the land on the steps of Yavapai County Courthouse at 11:00 AM this upcoming June 30, 2015. That means that somehow the $500,000 that was allocated to an entity known as the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” is already available to them and can be considered “State Parks money”.

    2. Despite the fact that $500,000 was appropriated to acquire the deployment site… Sue Black states that Arizona Parks is ONLY allowed to bid up to $304,000 and no higher. That is the established ‘fair value’ of the land and, apparently, Arizona State Parks is prohibited ( by State Law ) from spending any more than this established ‘fair market value’ no matter what.

    Sue Black goes on to say that the way the bidding scheme is set… the ‘bids’ must come in increments of $10,000 so the ‘next highest bid’ above the established ‘fair market value’ would be the sum of $314,000 dollars.

    So forget about someone needing $500,000 plus 1 dollar to acquire the land themselves.

    It will only take $314,000 to ‘outbid’ Arizona State Parks department on June 30, 2015.

    $314,000 is peanuts.

    There are a LOT of people ( and organizations ) that have that kind of money available to them.

    Here is the Prescott Daily Courier article that just appeared…

    The Prescott Daily Courier
    Yarnell Hill memorial site named ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park’
    Published: 6/25/2015 6:09:00 PM
    http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=146911

    From the article…
    ———————————————————————————–
    Although Parks doesn’t actually own the land yet, Executive Director Sue Black said she was fairly confident that they would win the bid.

    “I don’t think that (outbidding Parks) would be in the best public interest” she said, but if the price is bid up, “we’ll just cross that bridge when we come to it.”

    Black added that, by state law, she can only pay up to the fair market value of the property, which is about $304,000, and because of the bidding scheme, the next one would have to be $314,000.

    “I can’t imagine anyone would bid on it,” she said.
    ———————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • Another thought on this if the State owns it could they pull the Rabbit out of the HAT — on EMINENT DOMAIN FOR ROAD ACCESS?
      Most States and the Government have that ability to build roads thru Private property which would accomplish that objective as private owners do not.

      Just a thought as to why the committee is willing to let Parks and Recreation purchase the land as a Park. Remove the RED TAPE problem———–

      Reply

      • That’s a very good point.

        Having the site become an official State Park really is the best thing for all concerned… now and into the future. If handicap access to the site quickly becomes a huge issue then the fact that it is already a State Park offers the most options for getting that figured out quickly and efficiently… even if it means playing hardball with reluctant land owners.

        It also offers the best scenario for all the fair access issues. There could certainly still be reasonable restrctions ( like no alchohol, no shirt no shoes no service basic stuff ) but you’d be hard pressed to run a State Park that only allows access to “the brotherhood” like “Widows, Inc.” was planning.

        Supposedly… ALL would be welcome to visit this State Park… and that’s how it SHOULD be.

        Example: It’s pretty much general knowledge now that the “lock down” which took place on the site was because at least one of the relatives of the deceased basically had a panic attack when it was learned that some psychics and mediums were interested in visiting the site. Even the Bible came out and there was much ado about how “against our beliefs” that would be and the great extents they were willing to go to make sure no one like that could ever possibly be allowed access to what they were calling “That sacred ground”

        I remember the one and only time I visited the Vietnam War memorial in Washington, DC. It was crowded. I was looking for someone’s name on the wall. I found it… and I paid my respects… but right next to me was a group of people focusing on another name and appearing to have some kind of session or ceremony. I couldn’t hear all that was being said because not only would it have been rude to intrude or eavesdrop… it was none of my business. They were there for their own reasons and it had nothing to do with me. The only thing I could hear clearly at one point was the person who seemed to be the leader of the group saying repeatedly… “Speak to us if you can… Speak to us if you can”.

        So was that a medium or a psychic helping some others try to ‘contact’ the departed?

        I don’t know. As I said… none of MY business.

        Did they have as much right to be there as I did and pay their respects, in their own way, to someone (singular) or someone’s (plural) who they may or may not have even known?

        You damn betcha.

        So when the ‘gavel’ falls on the steps of the Yavapai County courthouse just a few days from now and someone shouts…

        “SOLD to xxxxxx for $yyyyyy”

        …I have all my fingers and toes crossed that ‘xxxxxx’ is none other than “Arizona State Parks Department”

        Any other outcome… and things are going to get REALLY WEIRD.

        Reply

      • Thanks for all of this. I managed to flee town for a couple of days and came back in last night and read this.

        It was so dumbfounding (and DUMB) that I just sat there trying to contemplate it and finally fell asleep trying to do that.

        Sure would be nice if there were the (legally required) meeting minutes somewhere.

        Reply

  49. **
    ** JUMPING?

    I hope a press release just issued by the Arizona Governor’s office doesn’t turn from a simple act of “Jumping the gun” to a bona-fide “Jumping the SHARK” moment.

    The Arizona Governor’s Office has just announced that the OFFICIAL name of the Yarnell Hill Fire Memorial site will be…

    “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park”

    …but the State of Arizona Parks Department doesn’t even officially OWN the land yet.

    That can’t possibly be even near true until following the upcoming auction of the land at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2013, on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse… and the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” ends up the ‘winning bidder’ for the land.

    Interestingly enough… this ‘premature’ press release on the part of Arizona Governor Doub Ducey tells us that it will ( supposedly ) be representatives of ‘Arizona Parks’ itself that will be the ones standing on the courthouse steps a few days from now and bidding for the land.

    Not sure how that works since the $500,000 allocated by the Arizona Legislature was given to an entity called “The Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board” and NOT directly to “Arizona State Parks”… but I suppose when it’s nothing but foxes in the henhouse the eggs get passed around pretty freely, so to speak.

    All that means is that if it really is “Arizona State Parks” bidding directly on the land on June 30, 2015… and they ‘win’… then from that moment on the ACCESS to the land is in their ballpark and not sure what control the other entity has ( Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board ).

    What’s also interesting is that despite the ‘optimism’ in this press release… they still felt the need to include the phrase “…following a successful bid”.

    PRESS RELEASE
    From the Office of the Arizona Governor Doug Ducey
    June 25, 2015

    http://azgovernor.gov/news/yarnell-hill-memorial-site-officially-named-%E2%80%9Cgranite-mountain-hotshots-memorial-state-park%E2%80%9D

    From the Governor’s Press Release…
    ———————————————————————
    Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Officially Named “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park”

    June 25, 2015

    PHOENIX – In a historic meeting, the Arizona State Parks Board yesterday named the future site of the Yarnell Hill Memorial. By unanimous vote, the Board adopted “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park” as the official site name.

    “No words will ever fully convey our gratitude for these 19 heroes — we owe them a debt that can never be repaid,” said Governor Ducey. “But this memorial, named in their honor, will remind us every day of their sacrifice, and of how blessed we are to have brave first responders like them out there protecting us every day. I’m proud we can honor them with this due tribute.”

    “This is a historic moment and Arizona State Parks and the Board are proud to be part of the process,” said Arizona State Parks Board Chairman R.J. Cardin. “We continue to work to make the site a special place that will honor the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who lost their lives there.”

    In 2014, House Bill 2624 tasked the Board with purchasing the site and establishing a memorial park. Today, the Board fulfilled an important part of this mission by officially naming the future park. The Board, which is chaired by Arizona State Parks Executive Director Sue Black, is working with elected officials and family members of the 19 wildland firefighters to create a place to pay tribute to the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    House Bill 2624 also set aside $500,000 for the purchase of the State Trust land on which this tragedy occurred. On June 30, 2015, Parks will attend a public auction and bid on this 320-acre parcel. Following a successful bid, Parks will designate the land as a memorial to the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who sacrificed their lives fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013.
    ———————————————————————

    Reply

    • Followup…

      Notice that the Governor’s Press Release today mentions that various ‘negotiations’ and ‘meetings’ have taken place between the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” and “Arizona Parks”.

      The place where ALL Agendas and Minutes for ANY meetings of the PUBLIC Arizona Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board are supposed to ( by LAW ) appear is here on a website at the Arizona State Parks Server…

      http://azstateparks.com/committees/Yarnell.html

      As required by law… all MINUTES for ALL meetings of that Board are REQUIRED BY LAW to be made PUBLIC within 72 hours of a meeting… even in a DRAFT form that won’t be officially approved until the beginning of the NEXT meeting…whenever that is.

      The MINUTES for the complete LAST TWO meetings of this Arizona PUBLIC board are still totally MISSING from this Arizona State Parks website.

      Reply

      • LMAO.

        Just in case I didn’t type “Required by Law” enough in the paragraph above…

        …did I say that the “Yarnell Hill Memorial Board” is REQUIRED BY LAW to publish the minutes from their meetings within 72 hours of any meeting?

        The last officially ‘published’ minutes for a meeting go all the way back to February 27, 2015.

        NOTHING is there for the TWO other official Board meetings that have gone down since then.( April 10, 2015 and May 29, 2015 ).

        Reply

        • Why do I continually get the feeling that for anyone living in the great state of Arizona… these pesky things everybody keeps calling LAWS are really just… well… sort of ‘guidelines’?

          Reply

          • That ain’t no shit! Laws aren’t even guidelines for many of the people who live in Arizona and those who represent them, they are just obstacles to figure out how to get around or just ignore.

            Reply

          • Guide lines? More like used to control freedoms that the TV soused public agrees to. When did this country get so restricted that you need to buy a land pass to hike across country. The new mind set is restrict freedoms in every direction and when men begin to believe there is a better way than the Constitution and the Bill of Rights, then we live in what we are made to believe is a civilized society. My Tee Pee just does not fit within the HOA Weaver Estates where people look like bees in a hive–every house looks alike and too many beers and you might wind up in the wrong bed room. I have talked to people that have done that there. But I am happy that my Tee Pee does not fit in there==do keep your cookie cutter home in that bee hive and out of the desert environment I enjoy.

            We are handing over too much to government–is it because we are lazy to do the things we need to do?

            Reply

  50. **
    ** THE FIRST VERSION OF THE LAW ALLOCATING MONEY FOR THE MEMORIAL SITE
    ** ALSO SAID THAT A SMALL GROUP OF FAMILY MEMBERS SHOULD GET “FIRST DIBS”
    ** ON BUYING THE LAND.

    Reply to Gary Olson on June 24, 2015 at 2:55 pm

    >> Gary Olson said…
    >>
    >> I am not going back right now at least, to find exactly were the
    >> information came from that “a group” of GMIHC widows want
    >> or did want at one time to buy the deployment site so they could
    >> control who was permitted to visit the deployment site, but I think
    >> it was from articles in the local newspapers.

    Yes.

    It was actually part of the Associated Press News Service’s press release about Arizona House Bill 2624 beiing passed.

    That’s the piece of legislation eventually passed the Senate, too, and was signed into law by Governor Jan Brewer. It established the Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board itself and gave them the $500K to buy the land where the deployment happened.

    The Associated Press reported that House Representative Karen Fann ( who represents Prescott ) amended the bill at the last minute and added a provision that some of the ‘widows’ of the deceased should get “first dibs” on buying the land. Those ‘widows’ approached her and ASKED her to put that special treatment clause into the legislation.

    She did. The bill that passed the Arizona House had that in it.

    Karen Fann’s ‘widows get first shot at buying the land’ clause in the original legislation didn’t survive Arizona Senate Committee Review… and the version that the Senate passed changed it to be a “first order of business” vote-style ‘action item’ decision on the part of the newly created Arizona State Yarnell Hill Memorial Board.

    That’s the version that was signed into law.

    The newly formed Yarnell Hill Memorial Board DID take this “should the State buy the land or let the widows have it” issue as a “first order of business”, as required by the legislation itself.

    The vote went against “the widows”.

    The Board voted that the State of Arizona should NOT just “let them have it” and the State should use the $500K allocation to acquire the land itself.

    Following that vote… there was never any “statement” from “the widows” themselves ( or from House Representative Karen Fann ) about this decision and the dashing of their original plans to acquire the property themselves.

    So no one really knows if they had changed their minds by then, or not, or whether the Board’s decision actually just pissed them off and they still have every intention of showing up at the Public Auction just a few days from now to try and outbid the State of Arizona.

    SIDENOTE: It’s actually pretty ODD that Arizona State Representative Karen Fann, who was ALL FOR the ‘widows’ having “first dibs” on the land… is also the one who was helping to set the upper limit of $500K for the appropriation in the legislation itself.

    Could it be that State Representative Karen Fann, in her conversations with “the widows” prior to her amending the legislation, already KNEW what kind of “dollar power” the “widows” had?… and the upper limit of only $500K for Arizona to purchase the land was based on that prior knowledge?

    I guess we’ll find out in just a few days.

    PS: It is still NOT KNOWN who these “widows” actually are who first asked Representative Karen Fann to actually write into the LAW the clause which stated they would get “first dibs” on owning the land.

    Here’s just ONE of the MSM outlets that published the ‘Associated Press” release when HB 2624 passed in the Arizona House…

    WORLDNOW NEWS
    Article Title: Arizona House approves Yarnell Hill memorial site plan
    Posted: Mar 05, 2014 5:34 PM CST
    Updated: Mar 05, 2014 5:34 PM CST
    Posted by Jennifer Jones
    http://apmobile.worldnow.com/story/24897692/house-approves-yarnell-hill-memorial-site-plan

    From the article…
    ——————————————————————————
    PHOENIX (AP) – Associated Press Release

    The Arizona House of Representatives has passed a bill setting aside $500,000 to create a memorial site honoring the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died in the Yarnell Hill Fire last year.

    House Bill 2624 passed Wednesday on a 56-2 vote and now goes to the Senate.

    It was amended Monday to give the firefighters’ survivors the chance to buy the site themselves. Rep. Karen Fann of Prescott says the widows approached her about the proposal.
    ——————————————————————————

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      Thank you for looking all of that up and explaining it so well, you really are a smart person and you are really good at explaining things, I really do wish you would write a book about this fucking disaster because that will probably be the only one worth reading. Although John Maclean really kicked ass in his other books and didn’t sugar coat what went wrong.

      It’s not as bad as I thought it was, it is really a lot worse, Karen Fann sounds exactly like somebody who I would expect to be representing Prescott, Arizona, Everybody’s Home Town. And I am going to stop writing now, before I go off on another one of my tangents.

      Thank God, who (whoops, I kept writing) so many of those who I view as being on the “other” side of this debate like to invoke, (since I personally don’t think God had anything to do with what happened to the GMIHC good or bad) that somebody in that insane asylum that normally passes for an Arizona State Legislature (Arizona is one of THOSE states the rest of the country so often points to and laughs at) still realizes that this country is a democracy (or at least a republic) and they need to put lipstick on this pig for the masses once in a while and shot that stupid and illegal (in that it no doubt violated state law in several ways) idea down.

      And frankly, if the Widows Inc. do show up with a big chunk of the money given to them by the general public and buy the deployment site to keep the general public away from it, I say good riddance. They can keep their site, and their fantasy about how and why their husbands died for as long as they care to. I don’t need to visit the site to find closure for the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      I am looking for the answers here (and of course I think I have already found most if not all of them, but I still keep picking up tidbits here and there like how overwhelmingly pervasive fundamentalist Christian beliefs were on the GMIHC, as in, With Jesus All Things Are Possible, yeah, including some really bad things and very well may have figured into their decision to do something so fucking stupid…nobody can believe it, since I say, God Helps Them Who Help Themselves) where it will digitally remain for as long as there is an internet. So there!

      I am really embracing this social media and internet thing, after spending a lifetime as one of the helpless masses without a voice since I never could afford to hire a whore of an attorney to speak for me. I think it is great and websites are really cheap and surprisingly easy to build and maintain if you have the hours to put into them, which I do.

      Reply

  51. Dear Marti,

    I know you are one of the few that want to know the truth.
    You have Joy’s and my invitation to stay at my cabin and take the hike.

    Know that my lungs and heart are not great but I will make it- slowly.
    Also, we will extend it to a few on here.

    Reply

    • Thank you so much for that, Sonny.

      Really, I have been seriously trying, for a while, to get through all my “local issues” to think about getting there. I need to get physically stronger, myself, and bring my daughter (whose dad lives in Flagstaff) on board to do the driving. Maybe when it gets a bit cooler??

      And I’ve also been trying to, in my brain, figure out how to connect that with a number of hours of conversing with Gary Olson. Which may not be possible.

      With, also a visit to my aging uncle in Phoenix, who we absolutely need to spend some time talking with.

      But, yeah, I have been for a long time, trying to conjure up this visit.

      Reply

  52. Soon when it is in my hands versus “talk”…I cannot wait to show you what I am hearing earlier today…man, if these photos come through in person…you all WILL hug me…pretty tight too.
    And “ahhhh” will be what you will say in relief….I know I feel that way.

    I am smiling huge.

    Thank you Lord…
    clap, clap, clap

    I do not want it to not happen so can’t say too much….I was going to go to the Prescott Memorial but ran into a county employee today and learned my interest should be Yarnell on the 30th so I will not be in Prescott at Jersey Lily’s…

    Reply

  53. Regarding the evacuation and the jeeps, and thanks, Joy, for the photos.

    Last weekend I was off on a quest to see if I could pin down something the had been whispering into my ear about that “waz yo status” question.

    I was thinking that, given the various (conflicting) narratives around B-33, Todd Abel, and Eric/Granite Mountain, the little question I kept wondering was, is it possible it was Clint Clauson, the Aerial Supervisor Trainee on B-33 who asked it?

    So I tried to find out who he might be. Problem was, I couldn’t find him anywhere. Still haven’t. Starting with in the Resource Orders or the WildCAD logs.

    But, in searching the WildCAD logs for Clint Clauson, I found something very interesting related to the jeeps and the evacuation that I hadn’t caught before. Which is kind of surprising, because we have discussed it before. Just not while looking at the WildCAD logs. Unless I’ve missed something.

    According to the Aircraft Log:

    06/30/2013 13:42:24 From) B-3 / (To) ALH give Yarnell a heads up that they might need evacuate we have trigger points set up but need need so start pre evac notice and we have spotting in the Ease SIDE
    ————————————————–

    I found no response to that in the Aircraft Log. However, when I got over to the regular log I found this:

    06/30/2013 13:40:08 From) B-3 / (To) ALH give Yarnell a heads up that they might need evacuate we have trigger points set up but need need so start pre evac notice and we have spotting in the Ease SIDE
    ————————————————————-

    The following are, of course, interspersed with various other things, which it is kind of a pita to type. Also, some of these should be in total caps, but, unlike Joy, I have no caps lock key so…….:

    13:49:54 PMB / YARFD Notified of preevacuation notification, they want us to call Denny.

    13:50:38 PETE / YAV 911 Notified County 911 of preevac notification for Yarnell being activated. Pre notification of 1 hour trigger point. Hold notificaiton till we get back to Tina, 928-771-3266 per David.

    13:56:48 PMB / ROY Are we at trigger point to make preevac notification to notification? Per Roy Dana will make 4 hour pre alert to entire town of Yarnell. Gave Roy info on messages to Tina at Yav 911 and EMS Denn Fouk.

    14:02:32 ROY / PMB Type 1 Team in brief 7/1 1500 at Model School ICP.

    14:22:15 ROY / PMB Fire is continuing to wobble and flank to N & W, then moves towards Yarnell, helicopters moved for safety. Things going well, evacs going well, roads not wide enough for ff access and pvt egress. Trying to stay ahead of curve, by noon, fire beh from 10-12 chains per hours to 15-20 per hours, fl 15+ feet. Per Pete TY1 team may make it in for 6/29 1800 inbrief. Roy will be sending email with names for O#s of support people. No safety zone adiqt for struct equipment, 8 primary structures will be effected immediately. Impact should be kept to under 100 homes in Yarnell.

    14:36:50 SWCC / PMB Dugger team will meet 7/1 1200. Changed ROSS order to reflect.

    14:40:18 KM / TOM-SWCC Made changes in Type 1 Team order.

    15:20:54 MAC / WR need A/G freq and a starter kit //for what do you need this ordrs for // need for the Type 1 team //ok this is the 1st time this has been mentioned here in dispatch // ok well let me call roy hold on // ok

    15:34:27 MAC / WR talking to Roy and Howard this should have been order at least 2 hours ago // well I talked to dispatch and this is the first time we have heard about that // well someone drop the ball beecause I was told by Howard that he had already order thru dispatch // ok well ill ask expanded

    15:59:42 OPERATIONS / WW Need to evac Mountaineer Trailer Park, all YCSO, Pam calling.

    16:00:41 PMB / YAV Lauren: Notified of mandatory immediate evacuation of Mountaineir Trailer Park.

    16:02:55 WW / OPERATI Call on towers not answer YCSO has been notified

    16:03:37 B-33 / WR will place additional 6 HEAVYs due to Wind shift 600 structures threatenwe have structures on both flanks of the fire and Yarnell is still treaten to the SE and there is a community to the north T Storms and pushing the fire in multiple directions

    16:10:41 PMB / DANA Notified about contract with YAV 911 per Dana, started mandatory evac of Yrnell, about 30 minutes ago, Peeple Valley was notified about 4 hours ajo.

    That’s the end of things having to do with evacuations messages on WildCAD. At least this part of it. Hmm, I think I’ll check to see what else might have been logged before this. (I’m on a stuffed computer so this is SLOOOOOOOW.

    —————————————————-
    06/29/2013

    22:07:49 Russ / WR need YSCO to cll me direct on some evacuation pre planning // copy we willhave then call you

    22:11:57 NORVAL / YCSO Needing to get in contact with someone to set a possible evac plan, no evacs are needed at this time but it needs to be discussed // Let me get your contact information and have someone call you // Norval Tyler 623-44500274 // Will have someone call you back soon

    22:30:08 YCSO / IC Frank Barbaro // updated on fire activity, if it moves to the east its going to go down to Yarnell // What are you thinking on evacs and time wise? // Not tonight but tomorrow and the next day is a possibility the east side is pushing down two to three miles to Muddle Creek 1-2 miles from structures. Time frame is not tonight, would like you to be here on the ground so if it does go that way you are here // Let me contact my sergant and see who we can have down there // My number 928-713-0457 and this is LT Barbaro

    06/30/2013

    00:30:56 IC / ST Significant reduction in fire behavior in past half hour ………Also tied in with Yavapai Co SO for pre plan of reverse 911. East side is still concern but will keep an eye on throughout night and advise -Unsure of total acreage at this time

    06:33:56 GEYER / IC Not a lot of active flame – Southern flank near origin – and east flank west of Yarnell – No north activity – vis smoke west side – .25 mile from origin – 300 acres triggers for evac – any movement north for Peeples Valley 1 miles from structures for Yarnell – Need T-2 orginization – Fly crews on hill off and inbrief – Team can build plan – Structure Protection in place for now – Plan of Action point of contact for dip site.

    11:02:32 CARRIE / IA DISP AA Bar Ranch area is being evacuated // 2 areas for shelters animal located at Hidden Springs Ranch HWY 89 SW East of Hayes Ranch…People and small animals at Yavapai 11 East Sheldon // 1000 hours Type 2 Team Hall Taking over fire.

    12:19:11 1-1 / KM Mobile Creek is possibly being evacuated. Running parallel to the community

    12:27:55 GEYER / KM Communities threatened: Peeple Valley: 400 residences, Yarnell – 700 residences, Model Creek/Double A Bar Ranch 120 residences. 150 people on mandatory evacuations. Mandatory evacuations placed app 1100 on 6/30 for the Model Creek and the Double A Bar Ranch. One hour notification for Yarnell and Peeple Valley Have been encavted which will impact another 1100 residences. Other areas that are downwind of the fire have been avacuated due to smoke issues such as the Hospice Center, 175 residences in Peeples Valley, 359 residences in Yarnell and residences in Model Creek/Double A Bar Ranch. Total of 578 residences are immediately threatened, 20% of homes are secondary or vacation homes. 25 businesses are threatened in Yarnell and preliminary estimates of 2 businesses in Peeples Valley. State HWY 89 threatened, railroad lines w/in 3 miles of the fire to the west. 0.5 miles from Model Creek homes. 1 hour to reach structures. Fir is moving towards HTE northeast and the east. No major roads are considered barriers. The roads within the area are narrow and not passable for equipment responding to the incident and the residences evacuations. Fire activity in the fuels is extreme with heavy chaparral. The area has not experienced a large fire within the past 45 years and there is severe undergrowth. Running and crowning w/in chaparral. 15-20 flame lengths on avg w/30′ flame lengths common. Short to midrange spotting being experienced by ground crews. Moving N and E. Half mile per hour. Increased 700 acres in the last 2 hours.
    —————————————————–

    OK. The next one after that one is the B-3 one.

    So that’s the dispatch communications regarding evacuations on the Yarnell HIll Fire. Interesting to see how this stuff gets communicated about.

    Oh, and by the way, somebody/ies spent all day, hour in and hour out, trying to find and acquire a crash rescue truck and a rehab truck for the Wickenburg Airport. It was only quite late in the afternoon they actually got one. It’s a good thing they, as luck would have it, had no problems at the Wickenburg Airport.

    Now, once I get this thing posted, I can actually look at it.

    Oh, and PS. All typos are either carefully copied by me from the original, or of my own creation.

    Reply

    • And, now that I’ve typed that, and read it (uncluttered by all the rest of the stuff surrounding it), I still don’t really GET IT.

      What I have “understood” is that (and I’m not looking at the above, just remembering), at least to the extent that it MATTERED, from the whole bunches of things I have “read,” is that the Peeples Valley/Model Creek/Double A Bar Ranch areas got some kind of pre-evac notification Sunday morning. and then the Double A Bar Ranch and Model Creek Road area (where Willis’ crew was working) got an actual evacuation order around 11:00 AM. And I haven’t come across any problems regarding that.

      And then, as I currently remember/understand it, Model Creek got an actual evacuation order soon after that.

      In my imagination, I see “Double A Bar Ranch” and “Model Creek” being, at that time, under more urgent pressure. Which is why, the situation, then, in Model Creek was a bit less URGENT. People were getting packed and getting out, but not RACING.

      On the other hand, regarding Model Creek, Willis’ crew with engines and sprinkler systems and such, was actually doing a lot of what actually gets done with who actually does it, in the realm of “Structure Protection 101.” (That thing we get a bit hung up about sometimes regarding this fire.) They weren’t doing it with a Hotshot Crew. They WERE using a Type 2 Handcrew. And THAT is where Todd Abel was positioned when the Deployment happened. And where the VLAT was laying down retardant. Which, I think, given aerials I’ve seen, actually made a difference.

      As I imagine this in my head, I have NO CLUE how the evacuation “went’ for the folks who were living along Model Creek Road. It could have been kind of intense, but NOTHING like Glen Ilah. But somebody may have a different story.

      During the whole “media visits the fire” thing that I think happened on Wednesday, apparently they visited a house that had been burned down in that Model Creek Road area. I have yet to find out exactly which one on Google Earth it is. I definitely tried. I couldn’t find it on the map I saw of the burned properties in Yarnell. But that map only showed Yarnell and Glenn Ilah. It didn’t even show Double A Bar Ranch (which mostly burned down) much less Model Creek Road much less Peeples Valley.

      OK back to Peeples Valley. I’ve seen quite a few videos and read quite a few stories about Peeples Valley. The general impression I get is that they were gradually getting out, as the fire increasingly appeared to be heading RIGHT TOWARD them, with a VENGEANCE. But I also think some people didn’t leave. They were ready to, but they didn’t.

      And, then, as it turned out, they didn’t even have to. Because before the fire got there, which it was definitely headed to, with a VENGEANCE, it “miraculously” stopped (right while Willis’ crew was setting that back-burn to try to protect it), and stood up and slowly started turning around. Around somewhere before 4 PM. And that was where Willis was still positioned, on that back-burn, when the Deployment happened.

      I have no idea when the inhabitants of the Sickles Road area got an actual evacuation notice. Were they considered part of “Model Creek Road” or a part of “Peeples Valley”? I don’t know. Were they ordered to “Get Out Now” at 11 in the morning? Or later? I don’t know.

      But the first place that fire started heading before 4 PM was straight at Sickles Road. And there was quite a stand taken there. Using Engine Crews and helicopters and SEATS. Big time. Musser had gone there and brought some engines and stuff there. And I think they managed to save everything there.

      And then, also at that time was the evacuation of the Mini-Mart. OK, I’ll hit the wildCAD for that. We have a time for that:

      “15:59:42 OPERATIONS / WW Need to evac Mountaineer Trailer Park, all YCSO, Pam calling.

      16:00:41 PMB / YAV Lauren: Notified of mandatory immediate evacuation of Mountaineir Trailer Park.”

      And, of course we’ve seen many photos of THAT scene!! It was pretty insane.

      But it didn’t burn, “miraculously.” Because the fire was still TURNING.

      And, of course, nobody could have predicted that. With outflows from a thunderstorm coming from the northeast.

      And, so now we finally get to Yarnell, including Glen Ilah.

      And multiple narratives of some version of “We got no warning.” Or “not enough” warning. And I believe that, given the consequences. And I’ve been all along seriously stumped on this.

      Which is why I have read every narrative I could find and watched every video I could find. And, frankly, I come up with………..confusion. Which is why I decided to peruse and publish, today, this WildCAD log, because I thought it might shed some light on this confusing thing.

      Reply

      • I wrote:

        “And, of course, nobody could have predicted that. With outflows from a thunderstorm coming from the northeast.”

        With tongue in cheek.

        Reply

        • I mean, seriously, if NOBODY grasped that this fire was ultimately gonna be heading toward the southwest, with outflow boundaries hitting it from a thunderstorm approaching it from the northeast…….

          ………..am I missing something????

          Reply

      • reply to:
        As I imagine this in my head, I have NO CLUE how the evacuation “went’ for the folks who were living along Model Creek Road. It could have been kind of intense, but NOTHING like Glen Ilah. But somebody may have a different story.

        I will look into this…I am meeting to look at some photos from that area soon.

        Reply

    • OK. What we have regarding Yarnell itself.

      We have a 12:28 PM notice from Geyer saying everything’s going to hell in a handbasket on this fire with “359 residences in Yarnell” “immediately threatened.”

      And then we have this from B-3 (who we know realized, somewhere around 12:30-ish, that this fire was most likely going to reverse itself and head toward Yarnell that afternoon, but didn’t tell anybody that except for Rance Marquez):

      “06/30/2013 13:40:08 (From) B-3 / (To) ALH give Yarnell a heads up that they might need evacuate we have trigger points set up but need need so start pre evac notice and we have spotting in the Ease SIDE”

      OK that’s a “might.” It also includes a “need to start pre-evac.” Did anybody in Yarnell/Glen Ilah actually get any kind of actual pre-evacuation notice in this post 1:40 PM framework?

      And, then, I have to say, I see a bunch of bumbllng around.

      “13:50:38 PETE / YAV 911 Notified County 911 of preevac notification for Yarnell being activated. Pre notification of 1 hour trigger point. Hold notificaiton till we get back to Tina, 928-771-3266 per David.

      13:56:48 PMB / ROY Are we at trigger point to make preevac notification to notification? Per Roy Dana will make 4 hour pre alert to entire town of Yarnell. Gave Roy info on messages to Tina at Yav 911 and EMS Denn Fouk.”

      Did “Dana” actually make that “4 hour pre alert to entire town of Yarnell” anywhere after 2 PM that afternoon? Who got it” What was done with it?

      The only next thing I know is that, somewhere around 3:50 Gary Cordes “called for” an evacuation of Yarnell. I don’t see anything regarding that in the WildCAD. And, to be honest, at this moment, I don’t know who he sent that to.

      Was there any kind of coherent coordinated communication going on between Roy Hall and Dana and Gary Cordes about any of this??????? Or was it just more “dust in the wind?”

      And then, finally, we have:

      “16:10:41 PMB / DANA Notified about contract with YAV 911 per Dana, started mandatory evac of Yrnell, about 30 minutes ago.”

      And so that’s, via the WildCAD record, the record.

      Reply

      • If I were one of the homeowners of Yarnell, to be quite brutally honest, I would totally give up on trying to hold Arizona Department of Forestry accountable for the loss of my house, even though it’s really obvious they blew the Initial Attack. Because that’s counterbalanced by your blowing of your responsibility for getting serious about creating Defensible Space.

        But I would also grab hold of, by my teeth and my fingernails and everything else I could use (heck, I”ve even used paperclips to hold on to things, and don’t forget pliers and even duck tape – fishing wire is good also) this whole confusion in the record about your pre-evacuation and evacuation notices.

        THIS is where I think you got SCREWED. Big time.

        There is no way in hell you should have been fleeing that fire, with just about nothing with you that you could grab in those last minutes, including just your pajamas and your flip-flops.

        I can’t tell who, exactly, is responsible for this piece of this nightmare. Was it Arizona Department of Forestry? I don’t know. Was it Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office? I don’t know.

        But if I were you, I would never never never never give up on finding out. And holding whoever was responsible accountable. Because, after picking my way through these communications, I’m pretty sure you got screwed.

        In a way that, apparently, mostly nobody else did.

        Reply

        • They friggin had PLENTY of time and PLENTY of warning and PLENTY of reason to tell you somewhere between (and not later than) about noon and 2 PM:

          “You need to pack up what matters most to you and EVACUATE because this fire is about to head toward you. Big time. And here’s your FOUR hour notice to do that. Which means you have FOUR hours to do that. And I”m sorry to say this but you’ve got to get out. Now.”

          And, as it would turn out, a FOUR hour notice, at that time, wouldn’t have been enough. But, at least it would have been a start. And, from what I can see, I don’t think you even got THAT. Instead you got total chaos after 4 PM. WAY too late.

          Seriously, from what I see, THIS is where your case is.

          Reply

          • I actually notified Congress and some in Yarnell when on the Weavers on 6-30-13 via my cell sending a photo to “prepare” the important items and be alert and cautious and even told retired sheriff, my bible study gal and my family. I did not feel it was TIME but just be prepared was all…

            Reply

            • Joy, thank you for that.

              Do you have any idea when you did that?

              Of course, it wasn’t YOUR JOB to do that.

              But seriously, given all the narratives about how people who, somehow, found out it was time to evacuate, contacting other people via cellphones to evacuate, this is a typical part of this narrative.

              And I totally understand that part of the problem was that people who no longer had landlines and who didn’t know to put themselves on “the list” were “outside the loop.”

              But still. I really believe “the system” waited WAY too long to take seriously the fact that the weather was turning that fire around and driving it to the southwest.

              Hmmmmmmmm. What POSSIBLY could that POSSIBLY be related to.

              A Plan that included the Granite Mountain Hotshots????

              Reply

              • Joy, thank you for that.

                Do you have any idea when you did that?

                ALL THROUGHOUT THE DAY I UPDATED THEM- LAST ONE WAS 3:33PM AND 5:11PM

                Of course, it wasn’t YOUR JOB to do that.
                IN A SENSE AS THE DESERT WALKER SOME ELDERLY JUST EXPECT IT FROM ME SO MAY NOT BE MY JOB BUT SOME DO EXPECT IT—

                But seriously, given all the narratives about how people who, somehow, found out it was time to evacuate, contacting other people via cellphones to evacuate, this is a typical part of this narrative.

                And I totally understand that part of the problem was that people who no longer had landlines and who didn’t know to put themselves on “the list” were “outside the loop.”
                THAT WHOLE AREA I PLAN TO GO DEEPER STREET BY STREET SO THE WORLD CAN SEE HOW MIXED UP AND CHAOTIC IT WAS THROUGH THE WHOLE COMMUNITY

                But still. I really believe “the system” waited WAY too long to take seriously the fact that the weather was turning that fire around and driving it to the southwest. DIFFERENT PERCEPTIONS ON THIS— SOME WERE FINE WITH IT AND SOME NOT

                Hmmmmmmmm. What POSSIBLY could that POSSIBLY be related to.

                A Plan that included the Granite Mountain Hotshots????

                >????????????????

                Reply

          • That evacuation notice should have been in effect before 11 am from where we were watching on the mountain. At about 10:30 am that fire had already begun to blow up big time —had reached the lower areas of the Weaver range where the manzanita was so dense. By 11:30 it was in full blast and had taken over that area that I had Joy time to be 14 minutes. The fireworks were on and moving fast toward Peoples Valley — and as far as Joy and I were concerned–I knew it was time to evacuate our post in case the wind changed. I could feel the change when I topped out and so did Marsh in his radio comments. Shows again as Gary Olsen would say the inept way that whole scenario was handled.

            Reply

            • Reply to Sonny post on June 25, 2015 at 3:38 pm

              >> Sonny said…
              >>
              >> At about 10:30 am that fire had already begun to
              >> blow up big time —had reached the lower areas of
              >> the Weaver range where the manzanita was so dense.

              At 7:00 am on Sunday morning, when Eric Marsh and Todd Abel were standing in the parking lot of the Yarnell Hill Fire Station, looking out a the fire ( as it was at 7:00 AM ) and deciding what “the initial plan” was going to be… the whole IDEA was that GM would very quicky establish and ‘anchor’… and the arriving DOZER would improve those “Jeep Trails” out there running in a SOUTH-TO-NORTH direction at the base of the slope and establish an EAST FLANK.

              In other words… the whole idea at 7:00 AM was to use “south-to-north” Jeep Trails to keep the fire contained to the slopes out there and never “coming down” into the valley itself.

              As you just noted… by 10:30 AM that “Initial Plan” was a joke.

              The fire had already progressed both north AND east… and was already further east of the very Jeep Trails they had thought they were going to use as the EAST FLANK of the fire.

              That’s when the “plan” had to fall back to using east-to-west two-tracks instead… such as the one that ran out to the old-grader from the top of the Sesame Clearing area.

              So even that dozer work on that east-to-west ‘Sesame Trail’ leading out to the old-grader and then on to the ‘explosives’ sign was already just a “fallback” ( backup ) plan.

              The INITIAL PLAN had ALREADY FAILED by 10:30 AM… and yet there were no evacuation notices being given.

              ( NOTE: This is all documented in the ADOSH interviews ).

              >> Sonny also wrote…
              >>
              >> By 11:30 it was in full blast and had taken over that
              >> area that I had Joy time to be 14 minutes. The
              >> fireworks were on and moving fast toward Peoples
              >> Valley — and as far as Joy and I were concerned–I
              >> knew it was time to evacuate our post in case
              >> the wind changed. I could feel the change when I
              >> topped out and so did Marsh in his radio comments.
              >> Shows again as Gary Olsen would say the inept way
              >> that whole scenario was handled.

              By 12:30 PM… ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) had arrived over the fire to replace Rory Collins as Air Attack because Collins had to leave to get refueled.

              On their (quote) “first turn around the fire”, Warbis and Lenmark noted the following things…

              1. Whatever Granite Mountain was doing was already pointless. Warbis and Lenmark were so sure GM was already “out of the game” that they said they were sure they must have been just “staging” out there on the ridge and waiting for their next assignment.

              2. The Blue Ridge Hotshots were doing NOTHING but hanging around their Crew Carriers. Warbis and Lenmark said their impression there was that Blue Ridge needed to either ‘engage the fire” or get the hell out of where they were ( the Sesame clearing area ).

              3. Warbis and Lenmark took one look at the same fire behavior you and Joy had been witnessing ( and timed ) and they were then SURE that the fire was GOING to go into Yarnell ( and Glen Ilah ) THAT afternoon… during THAT burn cycle.

              They were so sure of this ( and that GM was “out of the game” and Blue Ridge was worthless ) that they decided to start spending hundreds of thousands of dollars laying a basically worthless line or retardant all the way from the west ridge and over to the eastern foothills near Highway 89.

              And they decided to lay this line of retardant just directly on top of the explosive manzanita out there in “the bowl”.

              So they started doing that just thinking “Well.. SOMEONE has to try and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell… because the fire is going into that town TODAY”.

              So this is now all happening by 1:00 PM.

              And there will still evacuations in progess.

              It would be another HOUR before even the mysterious pre-evacuation notices would go out.

              Bravo 3 communicated their impressions, their expectations and their plans to (apparently) only one person in fire command…

              Division Z Rance Marquez.

              And then he ( Marquez ) basically just “disappeared” for the rest of the day and passed none of this crucial intel/knowledge coming from Air Attack Bravo 3 on to anyone.

              Reply

              • Apologies. BAD Typo up above.

                I left the entire word NO out of a sentence.

                The two sentences above should have read like this…

                “So this is now all happening by 1:00 PM.
                And there were still NO evacuations in progess.”

                Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 24, 2015 at 6:37 pm

        >> Marti Reed said…
        >>
        >> 13:56:48 PMB / ROY Are we at trigger point to make preevac notification
        >> to notification? Per Roy Dana will make 4 hour pre alert to entire town
        >> of Yarnell. Gave Roy info on messages to Tina at Yav 911 and EMS
        >> Denn Fouk.”
        >>
        >> Did “Dana” actually make that “4 hour pre alert to entire town of Yarnell”
        >> anywhere after 2 PM that afternoon? Who got it” What was done with it?
        >>
        >> The only next thing I know is that, somewhere around 3:50 Gary Cordes “
        >> called for” an evacuation of Yarnell. I don’t see anything regarding that in
        >> the WildCAD. And, to be honest, at this moment, I don’t know who
        >> he sent that to.

        According to Cordes himself… he sent it to OPS1 Todd Abel.

        From Gary Cordes’ one-and-only ADOSH interview on September 11, 2013

        NOTE: At this point in the interview, Dave Larsen is still just going
        over Gay Cordes’ official ‘Unit Log’ with him, line by line, So that’s the first sentence
        below. Dave Larsen is just reading the next line from Cordes’ Unit Log.

        Cordes’ Unit Log says it happened circa 3:50 PM and not 3:50 PM.

        If it happened at 3:40 PM… then it happened just seconds before Blue Ridge Hotshot Brian Frisby was about to ‘accidentally’ come across Brendan McDonough coming down off his Lookout mound.

        Q2 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
        A = SPGS1 Gary Cordes
        ——————————————————————
        1209 Q2: Uh, flanks approximately three, thre 1209 e miles became active with the head
        1210 moving south, southwest. Um, 1530, uh, 1540, Yarnell was actually a trigger
        1211 point met and uh, evacuated as requested.
        1212
        1213 A: Yes.
        1214
        1215 Q2: Is that right?
        1216
        1217 A: Yes.
        1218
        1219 Q2: Okay, your – you were, you were requesting that or?
        1220
        1221 A: I’m the one that made that request, yes.
        1222
        1223 Q2: Who’d you make it to?
        1224
        1225 A: I made it operations.
        1226
        1227 Q2: Okay. Uh, Able?
        1228
        1229 A: Yes.
        ———————————————————————-

        Reply

        • Sorry. Typo above. Meant to say ‘3:40 PM’ in a place where I said ‘3:50 PM’.

          Line above should have been…

          Cordes’ Unit Log says it happened circa 3:40 PM and not 3:50 PM.

          Reply

  54. Gary Olson saie JUNE 23, 2015 AT 4:08 PM

    “A group of the GMIHC widows want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars the public gave them to buy the deployment site so they can keep the public from going their to visit it or grieve there. Really?”

    Am I missing something? This sent me off on a quest to see if I had missed some news recently (as I’ve been off focused on other things) and I didn’t find anything.

    Apparently I hadn’t. So.

    The widows haven’t been given a dime by the State to purchase the land. The money has been given to State Parks to purchase the land.

    They still may WANT to (along with various other folks we’ve discussed), but, in order to do that, they have to come up with their own money to do it.

    And, yeah, I agree with WTKTT’s take on where Darrell Willis is at with it. I could turn out to be wrong, but I’m, right now. willing to bet my money that, all things considered, the “local” wildland fire-fighter community would rather the land go “public” than “private.”

    Given what has become, for some time, the “Tradition,” regarding these sites, when possible. I think it would be REALLY REALLY BAD OPTICS for the families to stand in the way, much less with support of Prescott Firefighters.

    I mean, what makes the Granite Mountain 19 and more “precious” or “special” (or that land more “sacred”) than any other of the wildland fire-fighters that died on fires, who are honored by both fire-fighters and the public (both for a reason).

    That would be a real slap in the face, I would think.

    (Sure would be nice to be able to see the meeting minutes, though, just sayin’ ……… crickets…………

    But, I wouldn’t put it past one (or more) landowner/s to try to buy it, though. That wouldn’t surprise one teensy tiny bit.

    Reply

    • Marti,

      I am not going back right now at least, to find exactly were the information came from that “a group” of GMIHC widows want or did want at one time to buy the deployment site so they could control who was permitted to visit the deployment site, but I think it was from articles in the local newspapers.

      And in any case, that is not what you are challenging. What you are challenging is whether I said the widows had been given state money to buy the land. So the issue seems to be of my use of the word public which was in error. I was using the word as in money obtained from the general public in the form money that came from donations and fund raising by the general public. However, I think that if you look at the context in which I used the word, I don’t think there should be any confusion as to what I meant.

      Nevertheless, let me try it again. I believe that if “a group” of GMIHC widows want to buy the deployment site that is scheduled to be auctioned off by the state of Arizona for a minimum of $300,000, but may go as high as $500,000, the money that the widows are or were planning on using must be coming from donations and fund raisers that came from the general public that were therefore private funds that were given to other private individuals (the widows) to compensate them above and beyond what their employers compensation was, which was based on workman’s compensation law.

      Now, if you want to split hairs, I don’t know if “a group” of GMIHC widows may be independently wealthy perhaps, and their husbands were working as hotshots because they liked the work so much? I don’t know if the money they are or were planning on using to buy the land may have come from private people for that purpose, say…Ross Perot? I don’t know if “a group” of widows perhaps had some wealthy relatives die recently and give them an inheritance? Or maybe they are or were planning on using their own money they earned from their own labor or perhaps their husbands labor before they were killed and the money was in savings accounts? Or maybe they are or were planning on using their own implied limited funds (I say limited because if their personal funds weren’t limited, they why did they need millions of dollars in addition to what their state compensation was, maybe that is horribly unfair, maybe they did?) and so therefore they are going to use their own money to buy the land and are planning on using the money form the donations to provide for their themselves and their children? Which in my opinion would be like someone on welfare using public assistance money (food stamps or card) o buy approved items and their “own” money to buy unapproved items at the register at the same time.

      In any case, the argument can certainly be made that it is none of my business what “a group” of GMIHC widows spend “their” money on and that certainly includes hundreds of thousands of dollars to buy the deployment site in order to restrict who gets to visit the site and grieve. However, human nature being what it is, since I donated money to the GMIHC families to help compensate them for their loss, and now that “a group” of widows wants or wanted to buy the deployment site even with money that fell from the sky, specifically for the purpose to control and restrict who gets to visit the site, which would I presume be me, especially since I would not apply to their regulatory body to obtain a valid permit or to be escorted to the site by one of their guides, I am offended. Maybe I shouldn’t be, and that just proves what an asshole I am, but in my defense, I did tell everyone at the very beginning that I was never paid to make friends by my employer and in fact, I was actually paid to be an asshole by you, the general public to go out 24 hours a day, 7 days a week to take of your problems and risk my life doing it. Maybe that fit into my existing personality and I was already an asshole and therefore it wasn’t much of a leap for me, but maybe I used to be a nice guy and after 32 years of risking my life and my family’s future on a daily basis to take care of your problems on your behalf, I have become a terminal asshole. I don’t know, I’m not complaining, I have very few tangible possessions, but I do have a very fair retirement check that comes on the first of the month, I did my part and now you are doing yours, thank you. I have a number of physical issues as a result of on the job traumatic and environmental condtijons, but onece again, I signed on for the job knowing that was possible. At least I didn’t end up being burned alive as the GMIHC were, and for that I am truly grateful, because that would have been a really bad way to go.

      Now, I have a hard earned reputation of being “that guy” on this thread who will call it like I see it, and so of those calls you are going to like and some of those calls will probably offend you. But like a supervisor once told me after a really bad complaint against me came in, “You can’t please all of the people, all of the time.” And just like the New Mexico BLM State Director once told me in his office, “Gary, you do good work…but you leave to many bodies on the trail.” To which I replied nothing, I didn’t know what to say because I had been only working for the BLM for one year. And like the Arizona BLM State Director once told me, “What are you going to do now Gary…call 60 Minutes.” To which I replied, “No, I know how the game is played.”, because by that time, I had been working for the agency for 18 years.

      Now back to “a group” of GMIHC widows who want or wanted to buy the deployment site in order to restrict who gets to go there to grieve, I think as a minimum, the “optics” as they say, of that decision looks bad and I don’t care what you (not Marti, everyone) think about it. I don’t like it.

      Reply

      • I think AZ already appropriated money to buy the land, and gave it to the quasi-public committee that is deciding details. So it definitely started as public dollars.

        Since it is public land now and will be bought by public money when ownership changes hands, it does seem all the more strange that access is now limited. There is no public safety or public order reason to keep it locked up now.

        They also are buying a large piece of land — closer to a ranch than a ranchette. The AZ legislature seemed fine with buying that much land, and apparently there is talk of buying even more down the road, so fair enough, but it’s striking to me that this isn’t just 2 or 5 or 10 acres for a memorial at the actual site. Seems to imply something more like a true battlefield park.

        Reply

        • One of the “first orders of business” for the newly formed Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board was dictated by the legislation itself.

          In the original House version of the Bill… State Representative Karen Fann ( who represents Prescott ) amended the legislation at the last minute to include a CLAUSE which said that a small group of “widows” of the deceased would get “first dibs” on buying the land.

          That is the version that PASSED in the Arizona House.

          The Arizona Senate took that “widows get first dibs” clause OUT of their version of the Bill… but they didn’t kill the idea. They just made it a “first order of business” for the Memorial Board the bill was forming to DECIDE ( by a vote ) whether the “widows” should get “first dibs” or not.

          That ‘vote’ did, in fact, take place as a “first order of business” on the part of the newly formed Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board.

          The “widows” lost.

          The Board voted that Arizona should buy the land instead.

          There was never any statement from “the widows” about losing that vote AND the dashing of their original plans to acquire the land themselves.

          So will they still how up to bid on the land? Who knows?
          I guess we’ll find out in just a few days.

          AFTER that initial vote that Arizona should buy the land… the next “action item” was to decided HOW MUCH LAND?

          The ORIGINAL proposal was to just buy the EAST half of that 360 acre Section 9 and end up owning basically from the two-track that ran up on the high-ridge ( and where the Descent Point was located ) all the way to the east and right up to the fence defining the west edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          I think that only amounted to about 200 acres.

          Somewhere in the process… that got changed to buying ALL 360 acres, and the ENTIRE “South-half-of-Section 9” in Township 10 north, Range 05 West.

          It appears that the Arizona Land Department didn’t want to end up with some worthless, oblique piece of property sitting west of the memorial site that would still be State Trust Land, following the auction. They must have wanted the Board to either buy ALL 360 acres ( the entire south half of Section 9 )… or nothing at all.

          So I don’t think the SIZE of the purchase ( all 360 acres ) has much to do with anything other than that’s what the Arizona Land Department preferred them to do.

          The Board might have said… “We don’t want all 360 acres” but Arizona Land might have then said “Well… we’re going to auction off ALL 360 acres of the south half of section 9… so if you don’t want some ‘weird neighbor’ sitting next to your memorial site you better bid on all 360 acres”.

          Reply

          • Correction for above.

            The SOUTH half of Section 9, Township 10 North, Range 05 West amounts to 320 acres… not 360 as I kept typing in the message above.

            So everywhere it says ‘360 acres’ up above… I should have been typing ‘320 acres’.

            Reply

      • OK, Gary, I did read you incorrectly. I did translate “public” into “that State money.”

        Which is why I was, like, wait a minute, did I miss something??

        And no I don’t need to split hairs. But I was also, in my own brain, conjuring up something along the lines of, hmmmmmmmm could they be (especially given how that conversation was going) in cahoots with a bunch of Prescott Firefighters to finance this, all things considered, since I wasn’t assuming they could afford to do all by this their very own selves.

        As a matter of fact, that idea had been percolating inside my head all along. I had been, like “Where are they gonna get at least $500 grand to do this?????”

        Actually I hadn’t even THOUGHT about them cashing out a fairly large chunk of all that donation and benefits money (or getting a loan based on it), so now I totally understand what you actually meant when you said “Public.” I was just thinking they would have HAD to find some “benefactors.”

        And you can RANT ALL YOU WANT about that, JUSTIFIABLY.

        Which just underscores what I said about the OPTICS of this whole thing. And I was thinking more of it being “pitched into” by the Prescott Fire Fighters.

        But, I have to say, the OPTICS of the Widows, Inc., “all by themselves.” laying $500,000.01 “in cash” on that table, to pull the rug out from under the State Parks acquisition, is going to go over, in the State of Arizona, equally REALLY REALLY badly, also.

        There’s already a LOT of people ALREADY pissed off about the money. And right now I’m not at all pissed off about the money. I believe they deserve every cent they can get, all things considered.

        But using THAT MONEY to buy their little piece of heaven on that mountain would totally end it for me.

        And I didn’t send any money to “the families.” I didn’t have any to send. So I spent about 20+ hours a week for the past year and a half (part of it while my mother was dying) donating my time to find THE TRUTH.

        Which I think we have come pretty damn close to finding, if I may say so myself. Even if it’s a REALLY Inconvenient Truth. At least for some people.

        Oh, and yeah, I also bought a white “Be Better/Yarnell 19” bracelet, which I have been proudly wearing this whole time. Because I think Julieanne Ashcraft is a totally awesome and majorly inspiring woman.

        Reply

        • And, now that I think about it, “The Widows Inc” is not just an analogy. They have to be registered as a business in Arizona in order to do this.

          That’s REALLY gonna go over well.

          Im guessing that, if they’re as smart as I think they are, they’ve been figuring out most of these roadblocks, themselves (with help), already.

          Which is why, currently, I’m not thinking they’re gonna Do It.

          And, then I chuckle, LOL! Who knows????????

          I guess all surprises are possible, on this STILL BURNING wildfire. THAT’S been nothing new!!!

          Reply

        • Well…once again, without looking up the specifics, I think there was more than 12 million dollars awarded to all of the families of the GMIHC by a committee made up of local officials, which I do remember included Tony Sciacca, based on their perceived need.

          Which I take to mean that a single hotshot without dependents family would be awarded much less than a hotshot who had a wife who wasn’t employed or necessarily employable under the conditions and had children would be awarded much more, which certainly could mean that some widows received more that 1 million dollars in addition to their workman’s compensation money that is normally paid out to the families of dead firefighters.

          And of course this brings up one of my favorite pet peeves, to my knowledge there wasn’t a single penny raised for any of the dead federal hotshots from the other disaster fires with hotshot fatalities.

          So yes, if I had more than 1 million dollars in addition to all of the regular workman’s compensation, which in the case of the fulltime firefighters could be equal to their original salary and full benefit package and I had several friends who shared my opinion that access to the deployment site should be restricted, I would think about buying the land as well.

          Especially if somebody with deep pockets might be backing the effort with even more money. But yes, that would certainly be wrong in my opinion.

          Reply

          • I will also further opine, based on my personal experience regarding workman’s compensation since I actually had to choose between taking a medical disability retirement at age 30 due to damage to my lungs and larynx from smoke inhalation or a different job which in my case and as a result of the wisdom of USFS management, was to clean out outhouses and pick up trash in campgrounds.

            Now…I signed the document accepting the position of cleaning outhouses from being an elite best of the best hotshot superintendent because not only did I want to keep working for the USFS…but there are several other problems with workman’s comp working for the federal government, which I am pretty sure would be the same problems with it working for any other governmental body.

            1. I believed they would find a way to disqualify me after a few years so I didn’t trust them. Now of course, this wouldn’t be a problem for the spouses or children of the GMIHC but it was for me.

            2. Workman’s comp is based on your BASE salary and does not include in the case of a wildland firefighter, overtime, hazard pay, night time differential, Sunday differential or holiday pay, which can come close to doubling some people’s salary.

            3. Workman’s compensation does not account for future pay raises due to increased duties and responsibilities. For example I would have retired on the base salary of a GS-7, but by sticking with it and getting lucky I ended up retiring at the equivalent of a GS-15. I’m sure that many of those who died fighting wildfires, not just the GMIHC, had similar or much greater potential to do well with their lives.

            And in any case, I am pretty sure everyone who got money for their loved ones deaths, or will get money in the future would trade that money in a heartbeat to have their loved ones back, but that is not the point, I just don’t think any of them should be talking about restricting access to the deployment site based on their personal opinions of who is eligible to go there to grieve or simply visit to see what the lay of the land was or for any purpose (legal) important to them.

            Although I do want to say there is nothing wrong with a job cleaning outhouses, somebody has to do it, I just wasn’t ready after being told how special I was for so many years for the reality of what the USFS management really thought of me.

            I also want to point out since this is my soapbox, that the first thing the USFS thought of to do with me was to FIRE ME and it was only after I researched the famous FSM (Forest Service Manual) that was the Bible that everybody lived by, and proved they couldn’t do what they wanted to do and filed a grievance, that I was offered the shit house cleaning job. So…just in case anybody thinks working for he government is a walk in the park, it’s not.

            Bottom line, it is perfectly reasonable to think that Jesse Steed or even one of the diggers on the crew would have been capable of retiring as the Chief of the Prescott Fire Department if the Prescott Fire Department hadn’t killed them. Sorry, it’s just my opinion.

            Reply

        • Yes, Marti. Thank you for reading it right. Well, Brent Yadon asked us

          “What piece of information will be the “closure” information that you hikers would be satisfied with and move on?”

          That indeed was a good question.

          Now, I ask what bit of information would prove to me that my son was not murdered?

          I have always felt that the police did a cursory investigation as we have seen in this investigation.

          So my closure will be when I know what actually happened that destroyed nineteen men’s lives.

          I ask you all on here the same question Brent asked me and Joy.

          Had I not rubbed shoulders with these men and actually saw what was occurring that day than I might be like so many that say they got their money and why bother.

          But I watched Dr. Ted Putnam working for so many years and expending so much of his own time and money to solve the riddle of why thirteen men died than I am inspired not to give up why or trying to understand nineteen men perished in a box canyon.

          We know already that there has been a cover up just by who came to us publicly and privately.

          The photo of the number nineteen above my left shoulder on Christmas night above their point of departure from this world ought to convince anyone that this is not a game.
          Lives that were lost including almost fifty from our communities amount to sixty eight lives. That in itself is the reason that we all should do everything to look for additional information and details and accounts of every life that was involved that weekend including Paul Morin.

          Now, Dr. Ted Putnam did not have closure even after 50 years of the loss of 13 at Mann Gulch nor shall we give up after only two years of attempting to uncover the real reasons these men died and the forty nine since then.

          Note, I am not after money nor do we expect any. I do not give a shit about fame. I lost a son. This is very serious business to me.

          Amen.

          Reply

        • I’m still not sure where the “Widows Inc.” talk is coming from?

          There are multiple memorial efforts — at least one for each of Yarnell and Prescott.

          For the burnover site itself, there’s talk of the appropriated money from the state being only for land, and therefore a nonprofit arm of the memorial commission needing to raise funds for access, etc. once those details are decided. It is likely that in AZ the ability to make private, deductible charitable donations to this type of effort is facilitated by some stature or the other, so they may not even need a separate charitable entity and may be able to use the state to look after any (hopefully segregated) charitable donation funds.

          Earlier in the process, there was some vague talk about families buying the land directly, but I am not that confident that we’ve gone from talk to discrete plans. Particularly so when the state ponied up as much as it did. If we were to do so, it would certainly be with a nonprofit.

          I am often wrong and ready to be corrected. I do believe that the public should have access to the site, without permit, even now, and that they should in the future.

          My gut is that the commission goes for some sort of open-but restricted access, maybe with a finite number of permits per day. I wouldn’t agree with this, and do ask what harm that would guard against, but it wouldn’t be nearly as bad as the current approach of preventing access in a way that isn’t grounded (imo) in the law at all.

          Reply

          • SR…

            See the following new parent comment above…

            It details where this information about “the widows” trying to acquire the land for themselves first came from… and where it was first published by the Associated Press.

            The “widows” approached State Representative Karen Fann ( who represents Prescott ) and ASKED her to write a CLAUSE into the legislation itself giving THEM “first dibs” on the land…

            http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xv/#comment-301026

            As for the term “Widows, Inc.”… I believe that’s just shorthand reference for the reality that in order for ANYONE to be a “successful bidder” on any Arizona State Trust land being put up for auction… you have to be “licensed to do business in the State of Arizona”.

            It is not absolutely KNOWN that anyone other than the State of Arizona’s Yarnell Memorial Board has any intentions of showing up on the steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse just a few days from now, at 11:00 AM on June 30, 2013, to BID on the land….

            But it is also not absolutely KNOWN that someone ( or multiple someones ) will NOT.

            I guess a few seconds after the first bid is made… and whether that is followed by total silence… will be the first moment when we know for sure.

            But when we finally hear the words…

            “Going once. Going twice. Going three times”

            ( LONG PAUSE )

            “SOLD… to XXXXXXXXX for $yyyyyy”.

            Whoever XXXXXXXXXX is has just 72 hours to get themselves “licensed to do business in the State of Arizona” if they have NOT already done so prior to the auction.

            If they don’t… then their bid is VOIDED and ownership either defaults to next highest bidder or ( possibly ) another auction has take place.

            So if XXXXXXXXXX happens to be some loose conglomeration of family members of the deceased… they can’t all just march up to the payment table and all start throwing their individual CASHIER’S CHECKS ( required by law, CASH is no good ) onto the table saying “Here’s mine… here’s mine… here’s mine, etc.”.

            They will have HAD to have formed either a for-profit or not-for-profit entity and be duly registered to “do business” in Arizona.

            So that’s where the “Widows’ Inc.” phrase comes from.

            It’s just referencing that legal requirement.

            Even if there are 8 persons involved… and 7 of them think they can just hand money to the EIGHTH one and have THEM “do their bidding” ( pun intended… which the IRS would have a problem with but that’s another story )… that ONE person is still required to be “Widow, Inc.” or some such registered DBA ( Doing Business As ) entity.

            I really hope when the gavel falls on Sunday, June 30, 2013,
            the XXXXXXXXXX above is “The Arizona State Yarnell Hill Memorial Site Board”.

            Any other XXXXXXXXXX than that… and things area going to get really weird.

            Reply

  55. I have been in and out the past few months of Yarnell. I noticed people who normally come up to say “Good Morning”…I mean go out of their way and day to even greet me to now put their heads down or turn them away when they see me. I know I did not do anything to this person but I did learn recently on last December 2014 event with Chief Ben Palm and fire meeting that I can confirm that Bob K. did state in his assessment this new chief after the YHF does not like Joy A. Collura so it could be small town rubbish rumors flying and they don’t want to greet me because they may be tempted to open up on topic …MUCH LIKE the deputy from YCSO who chooses to ignore some loved ones of the GMHS that knew them since the GMHS was young so I guess I cannot take it personal just people doing what they gotta do.
    I did get seven people last night tell me to show up for taco Tuesday at the legion and they will see if they can gather the photos for me to view…Sonny said why the glum face today Joy? I reckon because people I care for and like do not see the importance of this all…even Roberta Era is backing out of one of her suits so she can just move forward in life. The general attitude from some is the answers are coming out too slow but my reply has never changed…I tell them if I have not or this site or Dr. Ted Putnam seen their photos or heard their account—folks not making a movie or book but just want to gather documented information to properly assess the fire if we have not heard the homeowners accounts than how can one move forward because they may not even know it but they may have the definite piece to this puzzle. Than I am sad because people perceive me as I heard in January 2015 as being obsessed by the fire and that is not accurate. I was the eyewitness at the fire and when I got into evacuation shelter and learned nineteen not one or two but nineteen human beings died and than later learned it was the very men we pass by & spoke to…and ALL those homes lost and ALL the people affected by the fire. it just did not add up because that fire was tight towards Peeples Valley and Congress but very little on Yarnell except that someone this week may of been Bob Powers said they line and the mystery men away from helispot area was for gear or something and that was the first made sense to me out of this all because it hovered so low; fanning the 4 tiny bushes into high flames due to the air hitting it. Marti, you are right I will not be walking away from this fire and its aftermath and always be open to discuss it even if you do not agree with me or not—I want to publicly apologize to all that feel my wanting to continue to piece the puzzle affects you and your life but you also have to remember when you begin to feel such way…I was on top of the Weavers at the fire and so it is not just a local in town trying to cause a problem…I am trying to be a part in remedying the problem by speaking up like so many others should be doing. Is anyone on here going to the second anniversary next week? I am aiming to go and just have to make sure I am allowed in case another is present—what are the rules on it—I think it is okay because its a public event…I think it is so many feet or something….six months and a week left of it…Every time I am in Prescott I look everywhere when entering…I look forward to the day I do not have to…I know the organizing part if happening right now to hike some folks of various disabilities even ones wheelchair bound and not to make a point but because they want to go and no one will guide them to the legal way to go and I now have the state detailed map that we can show them and they are awaiting their state land permits first. They cannot see any of the area they men died but there is a great section you can view alot. They deserve that opportunity and very thankful we will take the time out and patience to do this for them. Why not. We hiked everyone else who asked so why deny a person…

    Reply

    • Marti, you are right I will not be walking away from this fire and its aftermath and always be open to discuss it even if you do not agree with me or not

      correction…in a sense..the first part was mean to you:
      Marti, you are right I will not be walking away from this fire and its aftermath and always be open to discuss it

      this part was meant for everyone:
      even if you do not agree with me or not

      Reply

    • I don’t know if this will help you or not, but sometimes misery loves company. Because of my outspoken participation on this thread and views expressed here and in John Dougherty’s articles I lost my book editor (who lives in Prescott) my mechanic (who is a Christian conservative and I suspect is good friends with Willis and knows the other Bible Thumpers on the crew) and several “friends” and acquaintances in the wildland firefighter community and in the Prescott area. I have also lost my Emeritus Status within said community. So…good luck in that small town.

      This has really hurt me. I don’t need any more friends than the ones I still have, nor do I need a longer Christmas card list, but finding a new book editor I can work with is going to be hard and losing my mechanic last year was a real bitch. All of you probably know how hard it is to find a good (and honest) mechanic.

      If I had it to do all over again…I would.

      Reply

        • I should have added, “because my Jeeps are old and I break them a lot and don’t even know how to add window washer fluid by myself.”

          Reply

          • and I should have added, “And all of that happened last year way before things got toxic. I’m tellin’ ya, those people in Prescott and the wildland firefighting community in general really love the original narrative and they have absolutely ZERO interest in hearing the truth or anything different. No, they can’t handle the truth, and they hate anybody who tells it and their philosophy is to kill the messenger and that will solve the problem.

            Which is just one more reason I am so pissed off by now and blowing the whistle on what was really happened is now not only the right thing to do, but I am actually starting to enjoy it.

            Oh and as long as I’m still pissing people off, I want to tell you one more thing that has been really bothering me for some time.

            A group of the GMIHC widows want to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars the public gave them to buy the deployment site so they can keep the public from going their to visit it or grieve there. Really?

            The world as asked to grieve for the GMIHC and we did, and now their memory belongs to all of us…sorry about that, but you can’t have it both ways.

            After the Loop Fire, the Battlement Creek Fire and the South Canyon Fires, the widows of the federal hotshots who died spent all of their time worrying how they were going to raise their kids and support themselves on the fair but modest amount Uncle Sam gave them, which would have been the equivalent to what the GMIHC widows and families got from their employers as part of workman’s comp, and before all of the fund raisers, donations, and lawsuits etc. So…I’m just sayin’, WTF?

            Reply

          • you need Sonny for a mechanic. We have been in tight non functional spots and he somehow just figures it out…he knows vehicles..

            Reply

            • I suspect Sonny knows a lot of things about life in general and how to get around the block and find his way home again.

              Reply

        • crack my ass up. smiley face.

          I too would do it again…and lose the same people’s friendships or more that I do not know of yet if it means I am doing the right thing

          and let me let sonny reply now,,,

          handing him laptop

          ,,,’sonny:

          The job isn’t done yet.

          Reply

        • crack my ass up. smiley face.

          I too would do it again…and lose the same people’s friendships or more that I do not know of yet if it means I am doing the right thing

          and let me let sonny reply now,,,

          handing him laptop

          ,,,’sonny:

          The job isn’t done yet.

          Reply

      • The desire for a wholly-private memorial at the burnover site is quite striking. Even the treatment of the site for the last two years has been striking.

        Battlefield monuments tend to have public access and are almost always respected, as are most graveyards It is quite….different, to take the view that the public can’t be trusted with the site. The types of security concerns that might make sense to me aren’t present here (yes, Jewish graves might face a risk of being defaced in some Muslim countries, etc. but obviously that’s not the case, here, either in terms of where we are as a country or in terms of the religious faiths of the deceased).

        I think it’s important to be very respectful of the fact that everyone grieves in their own way. But, the fact that there is this idea that the site should be treated in a very singular and shut-off way does make me wonder what the drivers are behind that idea. If lots of graves had previously been defaced recently in the area, then maybe I could get it, but no mention of anything like that has ever been made. A simple security camera could address any petty vandalism that might happen once every 5 years. Beyond that, what needs to be kept from the public?

        Reply

        • I think all of this consternation about “who should be allowed to visit the place where they died” has been just a continual manifestation of this “us against them” brotherhood bullshit.

          I think even this small group of widows who State representative Karen Fann made sure had the ‘option’ to buy the land when she first even proposed the current memorial legislation have always hinted that should the get ownership of the site… only firefighters would be allowed to visit there.

          We are the only only ones who understand US.
          We are the only ones who should ever investigate our accidents.
          We are the only ones who know how to honor our dead.

          Even Mike Dudley, one of the current “Fire Gods” and a very high ranking USFS official said, at the end of his presentation to Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014 ( just before the first anniversary )…

          “Uh… it’s critical work that we do… and only us, really, understand what that means, not everyone else that out.. is outside the system”.

          So that’s how even a USFS “Fire God” signed off on his speech.

          “Only WE understand US”.

          It’s like the public is “the enemy” and just the ones who are always too stupid to clear brush away from their houses so we owe then neither the truth nor any consideration.

          Just give us all the money we want… and go away.

          It’s truly weird.

          Reply

          • Darrell Willis is/was firmly ensconced in the TRIAD and has that “triple whammy” membership going on.

            He is/was a “card carrying” member of all of the following…

            1) The FF “brotherhood”.
            2) The evangelical style christianity thing going on in that area.
            3) The Prescott “good old boy” network.

            If anyone would have his own justifications in his own head for “locking down” that deployment site so that only the “brotherhood” or the “faithful” should be the ones who are ever be able to “walk the hallowed ground”… you would think it would be Darrell Willis.

            But that is NOT the case.

            To his credit, Darrell Willis has always been the one who has been consistently reminding Amanda Marsh and everyone else on that State sponsored Yarnell Memorial Site Board that no matter what attempts are made to “lock down” that site… people who don’t have the right “membership cards” will still be finding ways to visit the site on a consistent basis.

            And he is RIGHT.

            Darrell Willis knows that the WORLD was asked to mourn these men… and the WORLD will be finding ways to visit the place they died no matter how insular and “closed off” the “brotherhood” would like it to be.

            Reply

          • You didn’t ask me, but I will give you my opinion anyway, and I believe I have said this very thing in the past here on this thread but it was in a different context.

            As goes the USFS, so goes all other wildland firefighting agencies. They set the tone for the entire culture and lead the way in most if not all aspects. And as you have seen from the GMIHC roster, their influence extends into the other agencies because so many people go their start with the USFS, mostly because they hire so many more people than other agencies do.

            Now here is the “problem.” The USFS looks the U.S. military look like a progressive, free thinking, innovative, culture that is open to new ideas and trying new ways of doing things just for the hell of it. The USFS is still operating like its the 1940’s to the mid 50’s. And what’s more, they like it that way and don’t see any need to change. I really loved working for that agency. With the USFS…tradition is everything.

            Reply

            • that should be “The USFS MAKES the U.S. military look like a progressive, free thinking, innovative, culture that is open to new ideas and trying new ways of doing things just for the hell of it. The USFS is still operating like its the 1940’s to the mid 50’s. And what’s more, they like it that way and don’t see any need to change. I really loved working for that agency. With the USFS…tradition is everything.

              Reply

          • I would like to know the names of the widows who are desiring this place to be private. Joy got an email that until the Memorial Park is organized Debra wants it for the loved ones and firefighters but is not against it being public later on but Amanda Marsh has made it crystal clear her intentions and who are these widows?

            Who else?

            Reply

        • SR is 100 per cent correct and not only should the half acre or less site be available to all but that canyon and trail the men took should be used as a training ground for rookie fire fighters. I have talked to plenty on this issue and all agree that it would be quite a learning experience. It definitely would teach men what not to do and the whys of the mistakes made that day. That is a place that indeed would impress upon the minds of a new man considering the situation at hand. Yes, considering that those men belonged to the nation much as a soldier at war does, to restrict that area to a few private individuals is like fencing the Vietnam Memorial wall to only a few.

          So why not restrict all of Yarnell — do you consider the 49 citizens of less value than the 19 seeing that they could not defend themselves against the onslaught of a bumbled fire action that destroyed lives and homes?

          Here it is even more ridiculous since the local fire chief has to question you and determine if they will accompany you up there. To top it off there are no legal signs restricting the area so no one really knows what is restricted. There needs to be no trespassing signs every 50 feet to be legal–but then some are above the law and regulate without doing it properly.

          There are boulders to either side–maybe like a football field in size where there was no vegetation burned since there is none or negligible amount among the boulders. They certainly had the option to go to either the north or south area and I believe they would have survived. I would be glad to volunteer to be in those boulders if another wild fire or prescribed burn were to occur. I know I would survive there though I might want a small oxygen container since my lungs have been badly compromised since the drop of what one says was a drop of 300,000 gallons of retardant that contaminated the area with NH3. We do know too many have died from that drop–especially old people since the fire. Another one besides Brent Yadon — his neighbor Chaz has now just this week been diagnosed with COPD It is well known that a young man can loose a lung and do pretty well But older people who have already compromised lungs are pushed over the brink in many cases– and in others they suffer compromised health issues. Lack of oxygen due to lung tissue destroyed causes plenty of other health problems in the body. The heart and brain especially need sufficient oxygen. But do we hear about this or are the fire fighters informed of the real dangers. Do keep your older folks away from ammonia solutions–the same chemical compounds as used in the slurry. Do know the orange retardant used next Yarnell has never had a study as to long or short term effects on health. They think it is inert.

          As an underground miner we sometimes used silk covered glass capsules which we would burst with our fingers then smell to cure “powder” headaches. Dynamite has plenty of nitroglycerine and in the smoke from a blast as well. It is a terrible headache to bear so the ammonia cures the headache. But they don’t tell you it also destroys lung cells which never regenerate. Again you can loose a lung and some and still function but not as a marathon runner or bike racer. Eventually you will find yourself having problems even to walk across a football field.

          The heart pills they gave me are nitroglycerine–but then how do you wind up with a heart with so much dead tissue? That I know in my case is due to bad lungs from years of mining and from Joy and I doing so many hikes here and living near the retardant in Yarnell. Well I learned all this off line just within the past year or so since the fire simply because I was researching due to lung problems both Joy and I are suffering. Joy is a young 44, I am an old 71–Happy birthday Joy on July 1. But it would be happier without the lung problems and knowing about the 49 that have died since the fire along with the young men that were led to their deaths. Do the math, Yarnell is skewed way off the chart considering there are only 650 living in Yarnell.

          Reply

          • Another great post, Sonny. Thank you.

            Yes… a “Retardant Effects” study should definitely be done… either by Arizona Forestry or USDA. Preferably BOTH ( together with EPA ).

            Reply

  56. Reply to ‘Retired with 38′ post on June 21, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    >> ‘Retired with 38′ said…
    >>
    >> WTKTT,
    >>
    >> Thinking back to 2001, I am pretty sure that PFD representative introduced himself
    >> as the Chief of PFD – so that would have been Willis. But again what really struck
    >> me was the hell bent commitment to gain type 1 status – they hadn’t even
    >> completed their first season as a fuels crew and he was already talking IHC. Just
    >> seems odd to me.

    2001 is just after the City of Prescott got tied into those new ‘National Fire Plan’ (Federal) grants and had been designated as a ‘Beta’ site for the new national level FIREWISE program.

    That where the money to create the Fuels Crew came from in the first place… but Willis knew they wouldn’t be able to depend on that kind of grant stream forever.

    But the way Darrell Willis himself tells it… it was ONLY after they had successfully transformed the Fuels Crew into a Type 2 IA crew… and proved they could make money with it… that they decided to go for the “big bucks” and the ability to charge the crew out at the Type 1 IHC Hotshot paygrade.

    So according to Willis’ testimony to ADOSH… no one was thinking about the Type 1 IHC status until AFTER they had ( in Willis’ words ) “proved the business model”.

    Your recollection changes that testimony and puts the thought of making the “big bucks” into Willis’ head much earlier… when he was still just PFD Chief and right after the initial grant Federal grant monies started showing up.

    From Darell Willis’ FIRST ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on August 19, 2015…
    —————————————————————————————–
    1694 A: And so Eric came to work for us a full-time employee and we talked about it
    1695 and we got to the Type 2 IA level, uh, and we were able to prove the business
    1696 model worked. We could make a little money, we weren’t gouging people.
    1697 Under the National contract for, uh – we were charging less than the National
    1698 Type 2 IA crews. We said, “Well, gosh, we got – we got full-time employees,
    1699 we got this, we’ve got equipment. Why don’t we go to the next step?”
    1700
    1701 Q1: Mm-hm.
    1702
    1703 A: And that’s when we decided to t – take it to the Type 1 status. We had the full
    1704 time employees, we – we met everything and so we did a – a year of, uh,
    1705 training as a training crew in 2007. Had three s- different superintendents go
    1706 along with us on, uh…
    1707
    1708 Q1: Who – who were those?
    1709
    1710 A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
    1711
    1712 Q1: Uh-huh.
    1713
    1714 A: Um, I’m trying to think who the other guy was. There was two others, and I
    1715 can’t remember the other two.
    ——————————————————————————————–

    I still find it less than credible that the Prescott Wildland Division Chief can’t even remember the NAMES of 2 of the 3 persons who ‘signed off’ on his Type 2 IA Crew being qualified to be a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew.

    One of them was a ‘local’ ( Jeff Andrews ) who, even though he was USFS, he still worked with the Prescott National Forest and was allowed to be one of their three ‘evaluators’.

    We still have no idea who the other two people were who said this crew was eligible for Type 1 IHC status and that the man who had been running this Type 2 crew ( Eric Marsh ) was in any way qualified to ‘grandfather in’ to the new job of Type 1 IHC Superintendent.

    Reply

    • WTKTT,

      It seems to me that the original sign off for IHC status should /would be available either at PFD or at NIFC. Not saying that Willis should not remember (because my guess is he knows exactly how the process worked), but the documentation should be out there. With that, the quals of Eric Marsh should also be available from his personnel file from the time he was hired until the tragic day in June of 2013.

      Reply

      • In addition, I would be very interested to hear/see what the actual process consisted of and what field activities were involved. Did someone with higher qualifications “shadow” the crew prior to the official sign off? Or did somebody know somebody and get the certification based on “paper quals” only?

        Reply

        • WTKTT,

          Okay, I just re-read your post – it sounds like they did have people “shadowing” the crew to prove they were worthy of IHC status. However, my question still remains (in slightly different framing), were those people all local and part of the “boys”? We know one of them was from the local forest.

          Reply

  57. WWTKTT and Marti- check emails…new photos will be coming to you two to do your magic and or not but as we get them…we send them to you…all the ones we sent tonight…owner is Brent Yadon- a quadriplegic disabled veteran man states he was threatened with jail by a person in black jeep with golden emblem; a person in an authority role. Not the only person who said that but wanted to remain anonymous. Also Brent is having lung respiratory problems since the fire—a common thing we hear around here even from the healthiest of folks including ourselves. Enjoy the pictures and we have more coming…the new flyers posted have worked INDEED…YEAH!!!!

    Reply

    • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 22, 2015 at 7:11 pm

      >> Joy A. Collura wrote…
      >>
      >> WWTKTT and Marti- check emails…new photos will be coming

      Thank you, Joy.

      >> Joy A. Collura also said…
      >>
      >> owner is Brent Yadon- a quadriplegic disabled veteran man states he
      >> was threatened with jail by a person in black jeep with golden emblem;
      >> a person in an authority role.

      SPGS1 Gary Cordes himself, in his ADOSH interview, spoke about these “Jeep Squads’
      that were pressed into service to run around giving pre-evacuation.notices.

      Actually… Cordes called them “Jeep Posses”, but didn’t know WHO they were.

      Cordes says he was as surprised as anyone to see them since he wasn’t aware of any pre-evacuation order having been issued by IC Roy Hall, or OPS Todd Able or Paul Musser, or even by himself.

      The timeframe when Cordes says he started seeing these “Jeep Squads” was in the 1400 ( 2:00 PM ) range.

      From Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
      ———————————————————————–
      1162 Q2: Okay. Right. Okay. Alright. Uh, okay. Um, and we covered all that
      1163 frequency stuff. Uh, 1400 uh, where were you at, Yabahi County Sheriff’s
      1164 Office…
      1165
      1166 A: I was…
      1167
      1168 Q2: …(unintelligible) pre-evacuation notice?
      1169
      1170 A: Right. As I was comin’ out on the north side of Yarnell, um, from, from
      1171 Shrine, um, I saw some SO volunteers, the, the, their jeep posse, uh,
      1172 contacting people. I asked them what they were doing. They said they were
      1173 pre-evacuating and then I called uh, operations and confirmed that with them,
      1174 ‘cause I had no, no notice of any evacuation occurring and, and um, and it was
      1175 all, it was pre-evac, uh, four hour pre-evacuation notice.
      1176
      1177 Q2: Um, fire at that time was still uh, moving uh, column was going to the north?
      1178
      1179 A: To the north towards um, uh, Peeples Valley.
      1180
      1181 Q2: Peeples Valley?
      1182
      1183 A: Yeah.
      1184
      1185 Q2: So you saw that and the fire was uh, doing, uh moving away from it, did they
      1186 state, did you talk to ‘em at all, I mean, did they state why they were doing a
      1187 pre-evacuation?
      1188
      1189 A: They were just told, they were told to do it. These are – these – this is a jeep
      1190 posse, so they’re not the ones making the decisions, so my guess is uh, YCSO
      1191 uh, somebody up in a higher level decided it was time to evacuate and, and
      1192 that was fine. I just wasn’t trying to push everybody out of town that early
      1193 unless we, you know, ‘cause everything was moving away from town, so um,
      1194 and we had a, we had a um, anything closer than a mile or, or mile, mile and a
      1195 half out was kind of our trigger point to, to evacuate town.
      1196
      1197 Q2: Right. Okay. Um, that was what I was (unintelligible) they’re, they’re doing
      1198 this at two o’clock, you’re like what, what do they know that no one else
      1199 seems to know.
      1200
      1201 A: Yeah, I think it was because the activity was picking up in the afternoon, so
      1202 you know, people start getting a little more excited.
      ———————————————————————–

      Reply

      • Dose that some how tell you Gary was Clueless. Trigger points only a mile from town.
        Predicted thunderstorms and erratic winds on a uncontrolled fire. Sounds like the Sheriffs department was a little ahead of the Fire compared to the Fire overhead.
        Another example that this type 2 team was way out of their element.

        Again they were not even thinking about the Fire Fighters out there either.

        As I said way down I do not think the loaned for the possible blow up that occurred and thought the fire was going to keep moving North .when South and East were wide open fields of brush with Structure that had no protection from the Fire.
        NO DEFENCIABLE SPACE Better to be Safe than Sorry. EVACUATE

        The weather forecast should have triggered a massive exit by Fire Fighters. Yet it was as if no one cared or believed that the winds were going to change. They just kept going with a plan that was doomed that morning.

        WTKTT — I will add here that you have talked a lot about BR doing nothing but sitting around. The Supervisors of this crew decided in the beginning as I would have that the Overhead on this fire were off the reservation and they shifted into protection mode for there crew Keep your heads up stay out of trouble and be ready to move at a moments notice. Their inactivity was intentional not just waiting for an assignment.

        Reply

        • Yes. A certain level of uncertainty as to situational awareness is natural, and certainly none of the lack of cognitive awareness of the weather forecast, the development of actual weather in line with that forecast, and what that meant for firefighters and civilians was intentional. Nor was it imo a critical element behind what happened with GM . But, more than a little examination of how the idea that the fire would keep moving north (without regard to actual forecast and actual weather) got generated and transmitted between people would be very helpful. What’s again so odd is not only was this, all things considered, not an exceptional fire nor a fire that behaved differently than weather and conditions would suggest, but also local law enforcement saw the need for an evacuation well before those on the fire did. And the weather guy saw the expected fire behavior well before they did, too.

          Reply

        • That trigger point Bob mentions of a mile would only gives them 5 minutes to evacuate the town if that fiTre moved as Willis indicated —11 mph. Better not be on the commode of that is all they allow for evacuation time. That fire was a trigger the minute it got into that dense brush and took off — It was at a true trigger an emergency response the minute it started.

          Now I can only think this is after all a money game–allowing an emergency fire to build to extreme proportions so the big money players enter the game—playing off an inexperienced fire fighting team as a Type 1 when they barely would make a Type 2 considering their ages, lack of actual experience and a leader that did could barely qualify as a Hot Shot himself. Neat that your neighbor can pass on his job to you–called a good neighbor policy when you do not have the qualities. I suppose you can wing it in being a Hot Shot until you get someone killed and people look at your credentials. In mining you can’t–you have to be able to pull a round or your butt is out quickly. Maybe Bob or Gary will inform us on whether the Fire Fighter Hot Shot can pull the wool over the eyes of enough people to get inducted into the Hall of Fame status or say become a Type 1 while not even a Type 2. I suppose you would at least have to be familiar with the jargon and rub shoulders in the right places–again something a miner or logger could never get away with.

          Reply

  58. **
    ** STILL NO UPDATES TO ALJ HEARING FILE

    Just thought I would point out that we are coming up on a full MONTH since there have been any updates to the “Arizona Forestry vs. ADOSH” ALJ Hearing File.

    The online page where any/all filings in the case are supposed to appear on timely basis is here…

    https://sites.google.com/site/yarnellhillinformation/home/yarnellhillaljhearingfile

    The original text for this page told the public that the page would be updated with new documents filed in the case no later than the close of business every Friday.

    Since the last ( and THIRD ) cancellation of Brendan McDonough’s scheduled deposition, someone made a concerted effort to REMOVE that text and replace it with something that now just says the page will he updated ‘periodically’.

    There is NO DOUBT that (probably) MANY new documents have been filed since May 28 ( the last time the page updated ) and the third cancellation of McDonough’s under-oath deposition.

    It really appears that on or around that cancellation… and with the granting of another 30 day extension in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits… someone seems to have told someone “Stop updating that public page like you’ve been doing”.

    Whoever doesn’t want that public page to update can’t get away with that forever.
    It is required by LAW that it be updated in as timely a fashion as possible.

    So we still have no idea what’s been going on in the legal proceedings since the sudden ( and THIRD ) cancellation of Brendan McDonough’s inevitable under-oath deposition.

    Everything is still just ‘back-drafting” at the moment.

    i get the feeling that right on or about the second anniversary… any number of things are going to POP and there will be all kinds of ‘announcements’.

    We shall see.

    Reply

    • And I have to say, regarding that second anniversary……

      …..which you say “any number of things are going to POP”………………………….

      ……………..I am finding it really really really WEIRD that I have not (and I’ve been watching for this) seen ANYTHING announcing ANYTHING happening in Prescott regarding this anniversary.

      Other than the auction of the State Trust Land on the steps of the Yavapai County Court House. That is IT.

      The ONLY thing I have seen is an honoring of it in Yarnell on the 29th.

      By this time last year, there were plans posted on the internet WAY before now. And articles were starting to bubble up.

      Not only is the silence deafening regarding the derailment of Brendan’s deposition, and what is going on regarding the “mediation,” but it’s also deafening regarding this second anniversary.

      It all seems like somebody doesn’t want any of this to even happen.

      And I’m really mystified by that.

      “We Will Never Forget,” indeed.

      Reply

      • Marti-
        last year at the end of May 2014 the hikers were getting calls from reporters and journalists to do a first anniversary thing but we were in Nevada…
        so you are right and heavily the second week in June the calls came in and I know because that is the week I left NV….

        Reply

      • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 20, 2015 at 11:08 pm

        >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> I am finding it really really really WEIRD that I have not
        >> (and I’ve been watching for this) seen ANYTHING announcing
        >> ANYTHING happening in Prescott regarding this anniversary.
        >>
        >> Other than the auction of the State Trust Land on the steps
        >> of the Yavapai County Court House. That is IT.

        They ( City of Prescott ) apparently DO plan on holding a commemoration ceremony just like they did last year… and right there on those same exact Courthouse steps where the land auction is going to be held that very
        morning at 11:00 AM.

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> By this time last year, there were plans posted on the internet
        >> WAY before now. And articles were starting to bubble up.

        That’s true. Articles were ‘popping’ almost all that month leading up to the anniversary… but this year pretty much nothing at all.

        I guess the FIRST anniversary was the ‘big deal’… and now it’s just old news?

        >> Marti also said…
        >>
        >> Not only is the silence deafening regarding the derailment of
        >> Brendan’s deposition, and what is going on regarding the
        >> “mediation,” but it’s also deafening regarding this second anniversary.
        >>
        >> It all seems like somebody doesn’t want any of this to even happen.
        >>
        >> And I’m really mystified by that.
        >>
        >> “We Will Never Forget,” indeed.

        I hear ya.

        But just about 72 hours ago at least the following showed up on the ‘Prescott Granite Mountain Hotshots’ public Facebook page…

        https://www.facebook.com/PrescottGraniteMountainHotshots

        ——————————————————
        On June 30, 2015, the City of Prescott will commemorate the Granite Mountain Hotshots, 19 members of which were tragically lost on June 30, 2013. The public is welcome and encouraged to attend the event on the north steps of the Yavapai County Courthouse. The ceremony will begin with the Posting of Colors by an interagency Honor Guard of firefighters at 4:35 p.m. There will be a moment of silence at 4:42 p.m., the official time of death of the crewmembers, followed by the ringing of the Courthouse bell 19 times. Flags at all city and county facilities will be flown at half-staff. – City of Prescott (Official)
        ———————————————————–

        There is no mention as to whether the families are going to ‘sequester’ themselves from the public and media ( like they did last year ) and have their own ‘private’ memorial ceremony over in the cemetery where those 19 bronze markers are.

        Reply

        • Followup…

          That ‘press release’ from ?? Prescott PR folks ?? says the following…

          “There will be a moment of silence at 4:42 p.m., the official time of death of the crewmembers”

          I’m not sure where they are getting that statement.

          None of the official investigations ever established, for sure and certain, the ‘time of death’ for ANY of the Granite Mountain crewmembers.

          It is sort of ‘accepted’ that the burnover at the deployment site happened somewhere in the 4:42 to 4:44 timerange… but there is also Panebaker Air Study Video/Audio capture that has pilot Kevin in the DC10 VLAT saying he has just heard a transmission from Marsh as late as 4:48 PM.

          So I don’t know what ‘official’ source the Prescott press release is basing its ‘official time of death’ on.

          I don’t even think the autopsy reports ever established any official time of death, either… but there’s only a few people who have ever actually SEEN those autopsy and toxicology reports… so who knows.

          Reply

          • Copy. Thank you.

            Still…………………

            Including what Joy said.

            Compared to a year ago…………crickets.

            Reply

            • Yes… unless the flood gates are going to suddenly open, or something.

              We shall see.

              The SECOND anniversary of something like this always an important one. That’s when you get to see what is likely to become an always-done annual tradition… instead of all the ( sometimes overdone ) stuff you see on a FIRST anniversary.

              I’m just hoping more people who know things will feel it’s finally OK to talk about what they saw, heard or did that weekend in June, 2013.

              I really am hoping for ‘installment 2’ of the story from Cory Moser.

              Last year he told us the 30-40 FFs who spent the night near the deployment site stayed UP all night and then they all made some kind of ‘pact’ to never talk about what they saw, heard or did.

              Like they were all Masons and one of those super-secret Masonry rituals got performed or something.

              Anyway… I’m holding out hope for ‘installment 2’ of the story from Moser and he will at least give a hint WHY they felt the need to make this ‘pact’ amongst themselves to “keep their mouths shut”.

              Reply

          • WantsToKnowTheTruth says

            >> On June 21, 2015 at 3:56 pm, WantsToKnowTheTruth said…
            >>
            >>.
            >> That ‘press release’ from ?? Prescott PR folks ?? says
            >> the following…
            >>
            >> “There will be a moment of silence at 4:42 p.m., the official
            >> time of death of the crewmembers”
            >>
            >> I’m not sure where they are getting that statement.

            Followup…

            In an article reporting on today’s second anniversary memorial service in Prescott, Chuck Tidey told a reporter that the reason the bell is rung at precisely 4:42 is because that is, in fact, the ‘time of death’ listed on the death certificates for all 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.

            I didn’t know that… but that certainly answers the question about how 4:42 has become to be commonly assumed to be the exact ‘time of death’.

            KTAR
            Article Title: Two years later: Arizona, nation remember
            19 fallen Yarnell hotshots
            Published: Jun 30, 2015 – 12:17 pm
            http://ktar.com/22/1846198/Two-years-later-Arizona-nation-remember-19-fallen-Yarnell-hotshots

            From the article…
            —————————————————
            Yarnell has a remembrance ceremony planned for 4 p.m. At 4:42, they plan to have a moment of silence to honor the hotshots.

            “That’s when the death certificates indicated that they had died,” Chuck Tidey with the Yarnell-Peeples Valley Chamber of Commerce said.
            —————————————————

            Reply

      • The locals are cleaning up the memorial ground across the street from Yarnell Fire Department,. The nice new white hummer is cleaned and polished so Chief Ben Palm looks good there. The Forest Service ought to also donate a water tank to tie on behind with a small pumper so he can put out a small brush fire or lightening strike like we had on Friday of June 28, 2013.. I think the thing has new tires now and with the 4×4 ought to be able to tackle some of these back roads well enough.

        I hear Mr. Palm is running for mayor now–a parallel to Freole in Prescott. I wonder do all you firemen aspire to be in politics–I rather see you guys like Dr. Ted Putnam–true blue fire fighting experience and later helping the younger green horn stay alive by instructing and critiquing systems that are killing fire fighters. I think much I have learned from you fellows that have been there would even be a good education for the common citizen who thinks he ought to live in dangerous areas. Thanks for your knowledge.

        Reply

  59. **
    ** 12 YEARS IN PRISON FOR MISREPRESENTING THE
    ** CAPABILITIES OF A WILDLAND FIRE RESOURCE

    Four days ago… this article appeared at Wildfire Today…

    Wildfire Today
    Former VP of Carson Helicopters sentenced to 12 years in prison
    Published: June 16, 2015 by Bill Gabbert
    http://wildfiretoday.com/2015/06/16/former-vp-of-carson-helicopters-sentenced-to-12-years-in-prison/

    Everyone who has been reading along here is probably familiar with that term ‘Altitude Density’ and how important it is for Helicopters.

    The temperature, humidity, altitude and the resulting “density of the air” is absolutely crucial for helicopters and the amount of ‘lift’ that can be expected and, hence, the amount of WEIGHT that can be safely loaded.

    Yarnell ICT4 Russ Shumate himself was using this all-important ‘Altitude Density’ consideration to determine that he could only safely send 3 firefighters at a time up to the top of the Weaver Ridge in BLM Helicopter N14HX for their insertion on the morning of Saturday, June 29, 2013… and then again on extraction the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.

    There’s even software now onboard helicopters that is hooked into hygrometers and other sensing devices that allows pilots to type in estimated cargo weights and, based on a (supposedly) accurate weight of the unloaded resource and the desired cargo weight… the software itself can do the “Air Density” calculations in real time and can come back with “No can do, my friend” warning information.

    If the base weight of the unloaded resource being used in the calculations is off by even a few hundred pounds… that can make the difference between knowing how many firefighters can be safely loaded into the resource.

    So that is what happened with this WFF incident which killed 9 people on the ‘Iron Complex’ fire in California in 2008.

    The owners of the WFF resource ( Carson Helicopters ) were caught ‘falsifying’ the BASE weight of the resource ( their helicopter ) in order to get ( and keep ) a 51 million dollar US Forestry Service contract.

    They were purposely misrepresenting the capabilities of their own resource in order to fulfill their own agenda.

    The defense lawyers in this case argued that, while there was no denying that the base weight of the resource had been falsified and the capabilities of the resource were, hence, being misrepresented… this was just a CONTRIBUTING factor to the fatal accident and not a primary CAUSAL factor. They argued that the pilot(s) could have done things they didn’t do in order to avoid the tragedy.

    The Judge disagreed.

    The Judge concluded that this misrepresentation of the capabilities of the resource was, indeed, a primary CAUSAL factor in the tragedy… and that this ‘gross negligence’ on the part of the parties responsible for that resource deserved some jail time for the resulting ‘wrongful deaths’.

    So I guess you can see where I am going with this… and why I was purposely using the word ‘resource’ ( versus simply saying ‘helicopter’ ) so much up above.

    The Granite Mountain Hotshots were obviously not a ‘Helicopter’… but they WERE a Wildland Fire Fighting Resource subject to the same sort of ‘estimation of capabilities’ and ‘minimum standards’ as any WFF resource is… Engines, Aircraft, Crews, whatever.

    You HAVE to know what a ‘resource’ is fully capable of doing in order to ever even try to SAFELY do certain things with that ‘resource’.

    In essence… the Type 1 IHC WFF resource known as Granite Mountain undertook a “flight” that day from their location in the safe black… and this resource then basically “crashed on approach” to their “landing zone”.

    Whether or not that “flight” was even authorized or was just some huge amount of flagrant freelancing is still the subject of debate and more evidence needs to come to light about that.

    But there is no doubt this “flight” ended BADLY… and the “crash” took place on the floor of that box canyon just short of the “landing zone”.

    If you compare Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed to the pilot and co-pilot for that “flight”… then their involvement in the CRASH that took place has obviously always been a primary consideration.

    They were, for all intents and purposes, the ones “flying that helicopter” that day.

    So am I the only one who might also be seeing a similarity here with regards to the ‘owners’ of this resource possibly “misrepresenting the capabilities of the resource”, and that being a possible CONTRIBUTING and/or CAUSAL factor in the eventual “crash on approach” on June 30, 2013?

    Just a few days ago… Gary Olson presented a ‘summary’ of information that has been coming to him from his own sources.

    There is no reason to believe these ‘sources’ are not reliable.

    On June 12, 2015 at 11:55 pm, Gary Olson said…
    —————————————————————
    * Eric Marsh knew the GMIHC was type 2 IA AT BEST, but if that fact were found out, it wouldn’t be good for the future of the crew and may cause the city council to accelerate their budget cutbacks for the Wildlands Division and the crew.

    * Very few people realize that Eric Marsh was never a hotshot before he became the GMIHC Crew Boss. Eric worked on an engine for the Tonto National Forest and he was just a pick up and fill in for the Globe Hotshots from the Tonto National Forest.

    * Eric Marsh was not qualified to be the GMIHC Superintendent when he was hired for that job. Just because he was in place as the Granite Mountain 7 fuels crew foreman, did not make him qualified to lead a Type 1 crew.

    * Other than that detail to the Globe Hotshots, Eric Marsh’s experience as a hotshot was limited to just filling in here and there as a digger (low ranking crew member). So when people say he was a hotshot for 20 years or whatever, it’s incorrect.
    —————————————————————————–

    Regarding just this first item alone…

    * Eric Marsh knew the GMIHC was type 2 IA AT BEST, but if that fact were found out, it wouldn’t be good for the future of the crew and may cause the city council to accelerate their budget cutbacks for the Wildlands Division and the crew.

    That is really nothing but a CONFIRMATION of what Eric Marsh himself had basically said in his OWN job performance review in his personnel file.

    On May 3, 2013… just 57 days before the “fatal crash” on June 30, 2013, Eric Marsh said this ( in WRITING )…

    ————————————————————————————-
    Document in SAIT FOIA/FOIL package: ASF000042-INV to ASF000384-INV.pdf
    Page 252 ( of 343 pages )
    City of Prescott: EMPLOYEE SELF APPRAISAL – ERIC MARSH
    Date: May 3, 2013

    It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with minimum standards and requirements that I am unable to meet. It is frustrating when I know that I have the answers to anyone’s questions about the program but can’t communicate with the decision makers to engage in an educational dialogue. I believe things are starting to change, however I still have some big questions that need answering about staffing.

    Signed: Eric Marsh
    ————————————————————————————-

    Once more for good measure…

    Eric Marsh HIMSELF said ( in WRITING )…

    “It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with minimum standards and requirements that I am UNABLE TO MEET”.

    So was the organization known as “The Granite Mountain Hotshots”, and the people that OWNED that ‘Wildfire Resource’ doing pretty much the same thing that the owners of “Carson WFF Helicopters” were doing?

    Were they ‘misrepresenting the capabilities of a WFF contract resource” and putting that resource out for hire even though they KNEW certain ‘minimum standards’ were NOT being met?

    This has nothing to do with the fact that two sets of investigators ( SAIT and ADOSH ) took a look at the same paperwork that was given to both of them by the same source ( the Prescott Human Resources Department ) and determined that,based on just this paperwork alone, all the members of this Crew were (supposedly) meeting the MINIMUM requirements.

    What we hear from Eric Marsh himself ( and, additionally, now, Gary Olson’s sources ) is that regardless of the paperwork that was sitting in the Prescott City filing cabinets… it was KNOWN that the resource did NOT meet certain ‘minimum requirements’ and WAS being misrepresented’ to be something it was NOT.

    As per Gary Olson’s (additional) sources… GM Superintendent Eric Marsh ( and most likely his boss, Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis ) KNEW they were ‘misrepresenting the capabilities of their resource’ and pawning off a ‘Type 2 IA’ resource as a ‘Type 1 IHC’ resource.

    Was this ‘misrepresented’ resource then asked to perform a “takeoff and landing” on June 30, 2013 under hazardous conditions which was actually beyond their capabilities given the distance and allowed time… and which resulted in a “crash on approach” because of this misrepresentation of their capabilities combined with the negligence of the ‘pilots’ themselves?

    There were even men on that crew for whom this was only their second or third fire. To ask them to go on that “flight” and also ask them to participate in one of the most time-critical and difficult descents you could ever ask a crew to do and NOT remember that “a crew is only as fast as its slowest member” rule… is just more total under-estimation of capabilities to the point of gross negligence.

    If the Prescott Wildland Division had been (knowingly) ‘misrepresenting the capabilties’ of their resource that they were contracting out for high-dollar WFF fire work… then in what way is that any different from what Carson Helicopters was doing?

    Thoughts?

    Reply

    • They should have been dropped to a type 2 crew and the contract and pay down graded as well. until they could meet the type 1 criteria. The city was getting paid for a type 1 crew and fielding a type 2 that would be misrepresentation.
      The crew was signed off as a type 1 when it did not meet that criteria—-Mr. Willis should have had some explaining to do.

      Reply

      • In 2001 I presented at a Training Officers Conference on the subject of Municipal Fire Districts/Departments building a Hand Crew Program. Our program had been up and running for about three years, so of course that made me an expert on the topic (obviously tongue n check). One person in attendance ( I think there were five total) was a representative from PFD. I don’t know for certain if it was Willis, but I am reasonably sure it was. At the end of the presentation time was allowed for questions, and a number were asked – all from the PFD representative. Billing / reimbursement questions for fire assignments, grant funding questions, etc. But what I found most interesting were the questions regarding IHC certification – it seemed way to premature for a program just getting started, yet it seemed very obvious that was going to happen for PFD. Not that this matters at this point, it just seems to validate the importance placed on the IHC status, whether qualified or not.

        If you really look at the time from inception of the fuels crew to the “certified” IHC it was a very aggressive timeline – one that most start up crews could/would not be able to qualify and meet the standards.

        Now, not that I think the system will change but this does bring up a weak link ( I think there are some ongoing attempts to fix this). If a municipal type organization was to have a crew certified as IHC, they apply through the state agency they work with (in this case ADF), become sponsored by them and then the paper work and qualifications are reviewed. Maybe, depending on region/area there maybe some actual line construction scenarios, but in 2007ish I am not sure that even happened.

        So, the type one/IHC carrot was certainly a high priority to acquire and maintain for the PFD (Willis) and the system was/is flawed in the certification and currency process. HOWEVER, regardless of type 1 or type 2 IA, basic safety rules were violated and broken, and that is unacceptable regardless of crew type!

        Reply

        • Reply to Retired with 38 post on June 20, 2015 at 9:02 pm

          >> Retired with 38 said…
          >>
          >> One person in attendance ( I think there were five total) was a
          >> representative from PFD. I don’t know for certain if it was Willis,
          >> but I am reasonably sure it was.

          Thank you, Retired with 38.

          That’s a very relevant piece of information.

          If the year was 2001… it was more likely Duane Steinbrink than Darrell Willis?

          The FIRST “Prescott Wildland Division Chief” who actually oversaw the creation of the Fuels crew was Duane Steinbrink.

          Darrell Willis came out of retirement to be the SECOND Prescott Wildland Division Chief when Duane Steinbrink retired.

          Eric Marsh had already been running the crew by the time Steinbrink retired and if you read Marsh’s personnel file closely… there is evidence that Marsh himself thought he might have been in-line to replace Steinbrink as ‘Prescott Wildland Division Chief’.

          But it was not to be.

          Marsh got ‘passed over’ and The City of Prescott asked Darrell Willis to come out of retirement instead and succeed Steinbrink… even though Darrell Willis was ‘structural’ and had little to no actual Wildland Firefighting experience.

          There’s never been any evidence that this cause any real friction between Marsh and Willis or otherwise damaged their working relationship… and Willis made no secret of the fact that he WAS ‘mentoring’ Marsh to replace him when HE would eventually retire ( for the SECOND time ) from the Prescott Fire Department.

          Duane Steinbrink was actually a neighbor of Eric and Amanda Marsh’s and the night of the tragedy he was the one who actually drove Amanda Marsh into town for that meeting at the high school for family members.

          He’s also the one who ( According to Amanda Marsh ) was working his cellphone on the drive in and gathering intel and he supposedly kept leaning over from the front seat and just saying “It’s not good. It’s not good”.

          With regards to WHO it really was from PFD that might have been asking all those questions… take a look at the following PHOTO which accompanies this Chino Valley Review news article.

          It’s a photo that shows both Duane Steinbrink and Darrell Willis standing TOGETHER at a press conference that featured Amanda Marsh…

          The Chino Valley Review
          Amanda Marsh, wife of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshot crew
          superintendent, speaks about her husband
          Published: 7/4/2013 3:48:00 PM by Heidi Dahms-Foster
          http://cvrnews.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubsectionID=1&ArticleID=57322

          In the large photograph at the top of the article… Darrell Willis is to the LEFT of Amanda Marsh and Duane Steinbrink is to her RIGHT.

          Do you recognize either one of them as the one who was asking all the questions?

          Wouldn’t surprise me if you can’t differntiate which one it might have been because in all honesty, these two men have remarkably similar faces.

          Reply

          • Can’t tell from the photo, it was a while ago. But I do remember the feeling I had when the questions were asked about becoming a Type 1 crew. And the weird feeling I had was very similar to the weird feeling I had when I saw the interview with Willis after the tragic event – God had a different plan, blah,blah,blah, just didn’t sit right. Too much emphasis on being or becoming a “Shot Crew’ and not enough on doing the right things, the right way and for the right reasons.

            Reply

                • A quick BIO on Willis from the following article…

                  http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/yarnell-hill-fire-prescotts-wildlands-fire-commander-responds-to-new-times-cover-story-on-granite-mountain-hotshots-6634370

                  ——————————————–
                  Willis started at the Prescott Fire Department — which, like all municipal fire departments, focuses on structure protection — in 1985 and retired as fire chief in 2007. He eventually was rehired in 2007 as Emergency Services director and became Wildland Division chief in 2010. In his letter, he cites his hotshots experience as an 18-day deployment in 2011 with the Granite Mountain crew and three different assignments in 2010. He says he’s certified as a “Firefighter Type 1” and “Operations Section Chief Type II.” In 2005, Willis was inducted into the Arizona Fire Service Hall of Fame.
                  ——————————————–

                  So Willis didn’t really ‘come out of retirement’ when he succeeded Duane Steinbrink as Prescott’s Wildland Division Chief. Willis had already gone through the ‘revolving door’ in 2007 and in the same year he retired as Prescott’s fire chief ( with full pension ) he came right back in the door on salary as Prescott’s Emergency Services Director to the tune of about 100k plus.

                  He did that for 3 years and then just transferred back to the Prescott Fire Department payroll when Steinbrink retired. Willis took a ‘pay cut’ to do that and dropped back to only earning about 90k a year for the ‘Wildland Division Chief’ job.

                  Willis was “double dipping” from the moment he retired as Fire Chief in 2007 until his recent SECOND retirement from the Prescott Fire Department.

                  Reply

                  • WTKTT,

                    Thinking back to 2001, I am pretty sure that PFD representative introduced himself as the Chief of PFD – so that would have been Willis. But again what really struck me was the hell bent commitment to gain type 1 status – they hadn’t even completed their first season as a fuels crew and he was already talking IHC. Just seems odd to me.

                    Reply

                    • Thanks for this.

                      I had no idea that that early, they were already thinking about pushing this to the level of establishing an IHC.

                      And I agree that is strange. And I agree that is also relevant.

                    • Reply to ‘Retired with 38’ post on June 21, 2015 at 8:19 pm

                      >> ‘Retired with 38’ said…
                      >>
                      >> WTKTT,
                      >>
                      >> Thinking back to 2001, I am pretty sure that PFD representative introduced himself
                      >> as the Chief of PFD – so that would have been Willis. But again what really struck
                      >> me was the hell bent commitment to gain type 1 status – they hadn’t even
                      >> completed their first season as a fuels crew and he was already talking IHC. Just
                      >> seems odd to me.

                      2001 is just after the City of Prescott got tied into those new ‘National Fire Plan’ (Federal) grants and had been designated as a ‘Beta’ site for the new national level FIREWISE program.

                      That where the money to create the Fuels Crew came from in the first place… but Willis knew they wouldn’t be able to depend on that kind of grant stream forever.

                      But the way Darrell Willis himself tells it… it was ONLY after they had successfully transformed the Fuels Crew into a Type 2 IA crew… and proved they could make money with it… that they decided to go for the “big bucks” and the ability to charge the crew out at the Type 1 IHC Hotshot paygrade.

                      So according to Willis’ testimony to ADOSH… no one was thinking about the Type 1 IHC status until AFTER they had ( in Willis’ words ) “proved the business model”.

                      Your recollection changes that testimony and puts the thought of making the “big bucks” into Willis’ head much earlier… when he was still just PFD Chief and right after the initial grant Federal grant monies started showing up.

                      From Darell Willis’ FIRST ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on August 19, 2015…
                      —————————————————————————————–
                      1694 A: And so Eric came to work for us a full-time employee and we talked about it
                      1695 and we got to the Type 2 IA level, uh, and we were able to prove the business
                      1696 model worked. We could make a little money, we weren’t gouging people.
                      1697 Under the National contract for, uh – we were charging less than the National
                      1698 Type 2 IA crews. We said, “Well, gosh, we got – we got full-time employees,
                      1699 we got this, we’ve got equipment. Why don’t we go to the next step?”
                      1700
                      1701 Q1: Mm-hm.
                      1702
                      1703 A: And that’s when we decided to t – take it to the Type 1 status. We had the full
                      1704 time employees, we – we met everything and so we did a – a year of, uh,
                      1705 training as a training crew in 2007. Had three s- different superintendents go
                      1706 along with us on, uh…
                      1707
                      1708 Q1: Who – who were those?
                      1709
                      1710 A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
                      1711
                      1712 Q1: Uh-huh.
                      1713
                      1714 A: Um, I’m trying to think who the other guy was. There was two others, and I
                      1715 can’t remember the other two.
                      ——————————————————————————————–

                      I still find it less than credible that the Prescott Wildland Division Chief can’t even remember the NAMES of 2 of the 3 persons who ‘signed off’ on his Type 2 IA Crew being qualified to be a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew.

                      One of them was a ‘local’ ( Jeff Andrews ) who, even though he was USFS, he still worked with the Prescott National Forest and was allowed to be one of their three ‘evaluators’.

                      We still have no idea who the other two people were who said this crew was eligible for Type 1 IHC status and that the man who had been running this Type 2 crew ( Eric Marsh ) was in any way qualified to ‘grandfather in’ to the new job of Type 1 IHC Superintendent.

    • So I have pretty much spent the day looking through Joy’s Second Album all day, and delighting and laughing and crying through it all. She really is a great photographer and a great, in her own way, writer.

      And at a certain point, while looking at her photos of her road trip with Sonny, that eventually wound up way out in the never never never lands of Nevada, while ALWAYS carrying with them every mlle of the way, their devotion to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, my local PBS radio station, KUNM, via one of my favorite “shows,” played something that was, when I was a young Woodstock Generationer, one of my absolutely gut-wrenchingly favorite anti-Viet Nam War songs, “Sky Pilot” by the Animals.

      It was like I was taken back into those powerful moments when I would listen to it. And I can’t even describe in words how that impacted me. And when I heard it tonight, with my mind on all of this, I just broke down, because it totally expressed what I have been feeling about all of THIS.

      (My apologies is I’m a bit wobbly, KUNM’s just KILLING/ROCKING it tonight for me).

      And, so then, as I was listening to that, I looked back here to see what you wrote, WTKTT. And yes. And etc. And up. And down. And systemic. And WRONG. And deadly.

      And, even in the context of what you are saying here, the thing that has been GUTTING me for the past two days is that, not only is what you are saying is true………………

      ………..but we have that crew on an extremely dangerous (although nobody, seemingly, bothered to consider it that, until it was too late) wildfire in which an Operations Supervisor, essentially just one step down in the Chain of Command from the Incident Commander (who was, essentially clueless as to what was going on on this fire), participated in a “plan” that included them descending from a Safe Zone through an explosive chimney in a last ditch hail mary attempt to save Yarnell, WAY past when all the fire-fighters should have been ORDERED off that fire and into safe zones.

      I just can’t figure out who was, actually the “Sky Pilot” in all of this. Maybe that’s because there isn’t just one “Sky Pilot” Maybe the “Sky Pilot” is a whole SYSTEM.
      ——————————–

      Sky pilot… Sky Pilot
      How high can you fly
      You’ll never, never, never reach the sky
      You’re soldiers of God you must understand

      The fate of your country is in your young hands
      May God give you strength
      Do your job real well
      If it all was worth it

      Only time it will tell
      In the morning they return
      With tears in their eyes
      The stench of death drifts up to the skies

      A young soldier so ill looks at the sky pilot
      Remembers the words
      “Thou shalt not kill”
      Sky pilot…..sky pilot

      How high can you fly
      You never, never, never reach the sky.”

      ERIC BURDON & THE ANIMALS- “SKY PILOT” (LONG VERSION)

      https://youtu.be/69zvFnVa03g

      That’s just exactly where I am at, after all this time and effort, right now.

      Reply

      • I’m not sure I can even deal with particulars any more.

        Because it appears to me to be so totally SYSTEMIC.

        Reply

      • Please please please listen to this and tell me if it doesn’t………………………

        …………….relate?

        Reply

      • marti said:
        And at a certain point, while looking at her photos of her road trip with Sonny, that eventually wound up way out in the never never never lands of Nevada, while ALWAYS carrying with them every mlle of the way, their devotion to the Granite Mountain Hotshots,

        my reply: Yes indeed to all affected by the fire…and wasn’t it strange as you clicked on each photo on the right where the one night we had the one person talk about the lonely man Brenden who lived 19 miles away from Granite Mountain…that was near Jimmy Stewart’s old place, northern NV

        Reply

      • Marti Reed says
        JUNE 20, 2015 AT 9:40 PM

        So I have pretty much spent the day looking through Joy’s Second Album all day, and delighting and laughing and crying through it all. She really is a great photographer and a great, in her own way, writer.

        thank you for the compliments…the photos are just byproducts on my journeys…not a photo gal…had we hiked to the Weavers minus the camera—I always wonder what would be different to 6-30-13 when the SAIR came out

        Reply

      • And, in a number of other ways, I’m NOT agreeing with your analogy, but that’s going to take a good night’s sleep and then some wake-up coffee tomorrow morning to completely unpack.

        Reply

      • Actually, the more I’m contemplating this analogy, this more it’s falling apart all around me.

        It’s not the same thing.

        Reply

        • And a bad analogy fails to do justice to either party to the analogy. And, I think, both parties you are using to create this analogy deserve justice being done to them.

          Specifically, in the Carson situation, there were three controlling entities: the owner of the helicopter, the helicopter, and the pilot (the entity which you are roughly equating to Marsh and Steed as the “pilots” of the Granite Mountain Hotshots).

          Which means you’re equating the Granite Mountain Hotshots to the Helicopter.

          Which I’m having some problems with because that doesn’t take into account the fact that there were passengers on that helicopter who weren’t a functioning part of that helicopter. Who died. But whatever.

          The pilot of the Carson Helicopter had absolutely NO CLUE that the helicopter was not capable of lifting the load carried by the helicopter, because of the fraudulent claims of the owner of the helicopter.

          So, for your analogy to work, Marsh and Steed (the pilots) would have to have NOT KNOWN the crew (because of fraudulent claims by somebody ELSE who “owned” that crew) was capable of doing what they were trying to make it do.

          AND that that thing they were trying to make that crew do was, otherwise, a perfectly normal thing they should have had reasonable expectations for it to do, except for the fact that somebody else (who, otherwise “owned” that crew) had, fraudulently told them it could do. .

          See where it falls apart?

          And, in addition to that, the problem is that the thing that the pilots (Marsh and Steed) were trying to make the helicopter/crew do was, all things considered, most likely NOT a “perfectly normal thing they should have had reasonable expectations for it to do.”

          And, remember, this “thing” they were expecting it to do was agreed upon by a pretty high level member of the Incident Management Team.

          Whether it was a duly constituted Type 1 crew, or “really” a Type 2 crew “in camouflage.” the expectations that the ‘pilots” and their Overhead had about that helicopter/crew were, all things considered, NOT reasonable and normal and, thus not worthy of that expectation on their parts.

          That’s a REALLY different, in my humble opinion, situation from what happened regarding the Carson Helicopter crash.

          And so, In my humble opinion, in order to do justice to either one of these truly serious incidents, I think we need to not try to force them into an inappropriate analogy with each other.

          Reply

          • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 21, 2015 at 12:28 am

            >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> Which means you’re equating the Granite Mountain
            >> Hotshots to the Helicopter.
            >>
            >> Which I’m having some problems with because that
            >> doesn’t take into account the fact that there were
            >> passengers on that helicopter who weren’t a functioning
            >> part of that helicopter. Who died. But whatever.

            Well… I knew I was asking for ‘trouble’ the moment I decided to even TRY and equate a Type 1 IHC handline crew resource to a Helicopter resource… and say that both had “owners” and “pilots’ and whatnot…

            I agree it’s a bit of stretch of an analogy… but in all fairness… I DO think there were men on that crew who *could* be compared to simple ‘passengers aboard that resource’. I am thinking mostly of the ‘greenhorns’ like Grant McKee and the other men for whom this was only the second or third time they’d ever been on a real fire assignment.

            For all intents and purposes… a lot of the men on that ‘crew’ were, literally, “just along for the ride” when it came to crucial decisions about WHERE they were to travel… and WHEN… and HOW.

            These men WERE relying on ( forgive me again ) “the pilot and the copilot” to know the capabilities of the entire resource and the realities involved in moving safely from one place to another.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> The pilot of the Carson Helicopter had absolutely
            >> NO CLUE that the helicopter was not capable of
            >> lifting the load carried by the helicopter, because
            >> of the fraudulent claims of the owner of the helicopter.

            Well… I believe the defense attorneys in the case were trying
            to argue something different… but I haven’t read the transcripts.

            I believe the defense attorneys were trying to establish that there WERE some ‘doubts’… and actions the pilots could have taken to avoid what happened… but they simply didn’t bother to take the time to do those things. Something about a ‘hover check’ which COULD have been done… but wasn’t… or something like that.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> So, for your analogy to work, Marsh and Steed (the pilots)
            >> would have to have NOT KNOWN the crew (because of
            >> fraudulent claims by somebody ELSE who “owned” that
            >> crew) was capable of doing what they were trying to
            >> make it do.

            Yes… the analogy falls apart there… unless you consider that ( perhaps ) they DID know the crew was not up to a certain task… or should not reasonably be asked to do something that takes a high level of skill… but they asked them to do it anyway.

            So… in a sense… I’m describing a situation that might have been even WORSE than the Carson case. Not only did the ‘owners’ know the capabilities of the resource were being misrepresented… the PILOTS did too… yet they asked they asked the resource to perform beyond its capabilities, anyway.

            If you take just what Eric Marsh himself said ( in writing )… then that actually *might* have been the case.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> AND that that thing they were trying to make that crew
            >> do was, otherwise, a perfectly normal thing they should
            >> have had reasonable expectations for it to do, except
            >> for the fact that somebody else (who, otherwise “owned”
            >> that crew) had, fraudulently told them it could do.

            See above. Yes. The analogy falters there since there is no TEST for how fast a line of 18 Hotshots are SUPPOSED to be able to traverse a wickedly steep, boulder strewn grade descent covered with trap and maze-like manazanita and catclaw… within less than a mile from a dynamic, active wind-driven fireline.

            So there’s no way anyone who ‘owned’ the resource could have been signing a manifest saying ‘Oh yeah… they should be able to do that, no problem”.

            This part of the equation/analigy is akin to the pilots and copilots simply having to make a ‘judgement call’ themselves about what their ‘aircraft’ should or should not be able to do… given time, terran, and level of difficulty factors.

            Perhaps the question to ask of FFs here would simply be…

            Given what we know now about the difficulty of that “bushwhack” and that “descent”… would ANY fireline manager expect a simple Type 2 IA crew to pull that off without hurting themselves?

            The impression I get from Russ Shumate’s own Unit Logs and testimony to ADOSH is that the answer to that is “NO WAY”.

            So if the “pilot” of this resource that day ( Eric Marsh ) is now assumed to have known he really only had a Type 2 IA crwe… was he justified in ever asking it to perform a task that other FFs would easily say only a bona-fide Type 1 Hotshot crew had a chance to pull off given the time, distance, and extremely difficult conditions?

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> See where it falls apart?

            Yes. I really do… and I knew it was a ‘stretch’ of an analogy… but read above. I’m not sure it’s as far off in ‘left field’ as you are making it out to be. Off home plate, fer sure, but maybe still in the ‘infield’ somewhere.

            >> Marti also said…
            >>
            >> And so, In my humble opinion, in order to do justice to either
            >> one of these truly serious incidents, I think we need to not try
            >> to force them into an inappropriate analogy with each other.

            Agree.

            Bottom line…

            There is a definite non-hypothetical event here.

            A man was just sentenced to 12 years in PRISON for misrepresenting the capabilities of a Wildland Firefighting Resource that he was ‘loaning out’ to fight fires.

            That ‘misrepresented resource’ was involved in an incident that resulted in 9 deaths.

            The Judge decided that the ‘misrepresentation’ of the realities and the capabilities of that resource was NOT just a simple CONTRIBUTING factor in the deaths… it was, in fact, a primary CAUSAL factor.

            There is now all the evidence in the world that the ‘owners’ and the ‘managers’ of a Wildland Firefighting Resource known as The Granite Mountain Hotshots were doing, essentially, the same kind of “misrepresentation”

            And this resource sustained massive losses working a fire.

            Whether the ‘misrepresentation’ in THIS case was, in any way, either a CONTRIBUTING or a CAUSAL factor to the tragedy would be up to many legal experts ( and a Judge or Jury ) to decide…

            …but the SIMILARITY is there.

            The bottom-line ANALOGY is that the capabilities and realities of a Wildland Firefighting Resource were being ‘misrepresented’… and people involved with that ‘misrepresented’ resource DIED.

            Reply

            • Thanks for picking your way through this with me, WTKTT.

              TBH, during the during of this conversation, it has gone rapidly from being (unexpectedly) one of the coldest and wettest Mays in our history to being (unexpectedly) a really HOT June week here in Albuquerque, and, without a functional air conditioner ( a LONG story), I’m doing well just to keep my brain functioning.

              You wrote:

              “For all intents and purposes… a lot of the men on that ‘crew’ were, literally, “just along for the ride” when it came to crucial decisions about WHERE they were to travel… and WHEN… and HOW.

              These men WERE relying on ( forgive me again ) “the pilot and the copilot” to know the capabilities of the entire resource and the realities involved in moving safely from one place to another.”

              Yes. I definitely thought about that and was including that in my “equation.” And I agree.

              You wrote:

              “I believe the defense attorneys were trying to establish that there WERE some ‘doubts’… and actions the pilots could have taken to avoid what happened… but they simply didn’t bother to take the time to do those things. Something about a ‘hover check’ which COULD have been done… but wasn’t… or something like that.”

              From what I have read, THAT is EXACTLY the thing that was SHOT DOWN in this case. I don’t have the Wildfire Today pages open right now (because right now I have 50 bazillion DailyKos/BlackKos pages regarding the South Carolina killings open, which is what I’ve been following this weekend), so I can’t link to them.

              But THAT was, in my understanding, one of the big issues in this case, and THAT, it was decided, would have been impossible for the pilot to do, at that extremely critical and extremely difficult time, given the fact that the stats fraudulently attached to that helicopter were false.

              THAT was, I think, the whole FULCRUM of this case.

              And THAT was where I was finding your analogy falling apart. And, thus, not being a fair representation of EITHER tragedy.

              But it continued to bother me, because I do agree that, maybe some kind of looser version of this analogy might be useful to consider.

              You said:

              “So if the “pilot” of this resource that day ( Eric Marsh ) is now assumed to have known he really only had a Type 2 IA crwe… was he justified in ever asking it to perform a task that other FFs would easily say only a bona-fide Type 1 Hotshot crew had a chance to pull off given the time, distance, and extremely difficult conditions?”

              I don’t think the fact that this crew was “actually only” a Type 2 crew disguised as a Type 1 crew (possibly somewhat “fraudulently” all things considered) made all that much of a difference in the setup/outcome of this.

              I doubt that even a “true” Type 1 crew could have succeeded in successfully accomplishing this “assignment” any more than this crew could.

              So that means, imho, that the problem here, in this (possible useful for discovery) analogy is still that the assignment was beyond the ability of the crew, whether it was a Type 1 crew or a Type 2 crew.

              I seriously don’t believe even a Type 1 crew could have pulled this assignment off (ie, just, for starters, gotten safely to the Boulder Spring Ranch in that time fram), all things considered.

              There just wasn’t enough friggin time.

              So, to continue playing the analogy game, this would be more like the helicopter pilot NOT KNOWING whether the helicopter was, seriously, able to safely lift off and fly away from that spot in those conditions (which is kinda sorta what the owners of the helicopter tried to assert, but failed), but doing it anyway, without doing what they should have known how to do to test it.

              This is not what happened regarding that helicopter crash.

              And, so, this is just one part of where this gets really confused and muddy for me, trying to apply this analogy where it doesn’t easily apply

              I guess where I’m coming out after trying to put these two things together, is that whether or not GM IHC was a true Type 1 crew or a “somewhat wink wink nod nod” Type 2 crew “passing” as a Type 1 crew (what you are seeing as the “fraudulent” part) wasn’t really what made the difference here .

              To me, the fact that an Operations Supervisor (who, given the fact that the Incident Commander was, all things considered, three sheets to the wind on this fire, was in, essentially, Position 1 on this fire) was involved in a plan, along with a Structure Protection Group Supervisor and a Division Supervisor. to (analogy-wise) fly that helicopter, filled with those innocent crew members, out of that position when (whether or not the helicopter’s actual stats were known or not) the CONDITIONS on that helicopter spot were becoming radically increasingly totally unfavorable to that flight, is, to me, where the BASIC PROBLEM lies.

              I guess what I’m saying is that, regardless of the “typing” of the crew (whether stretching things or not), the “FLIGHT PLAN” was the fatal problem here, not the “typing” of the crew.

              Does what I am saying make sense to you?

              Reply

              • I wrote:

                “I seriously don’t believe even a Type 1 crew could have pulled this assignment off (ie, just, for starters, gotten safely to the Boulder Spring Ranch in that time fram), all things considered.

                There just wasn’t enough friggin time.”

                Another further thought that I have had is that, possibly IF this had been a really beefy Type 1 crew, it MIGHT have included enough more seasoned wildland fire-fighters who MIGHT have had enough experience under their belts to have felt that hair rising on the backs of their necks when they looked down at that bowl full of explosive fuel in those fire conditions and had therefore enough wisdom and courage to have said, “NO WAY JOSE!!!!”

                That’s really all the difference I am seeing, in my mind, at this point.

                Reply

    • Excellent parallel and who convinced the deceased pilots to take that risk and who sanctioned such inexperienced pilots to command the lives of those young fire fighters? Will this information surface so future fighter lives will be saved?

      Reply

  60. **
    ** LAT/LONG FOR DOZER STAGING AREA

    ** On June 19, 2015 at 11:06 am, WTKTT said…

    And here is a direct jumplink to the best view of that ‘staging area’ there at the south end of the Sesame area… ADOSH photo P9180003.JPG…

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAD3qBIoirUtUPykDaoj_5KMa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ADOSH%20Hiking%20Yarnell%20Hill%209%2018%2013?dl=0&preview=P9180003.JPG

    There is a large building there in the middle of the clearing that obviously survived the burnover.

    ** On June 19, 2015 at 10:36 pm, Marti Reed replied…

    WTKTT~
    Can you give me a quick long/lat for that so I can look at it via Google Earth?
    I’m experiencing some difficulty here and apparently I didn’t geotag Ball’s photo there.
    Thx in advance.

    ** On June 20, 2015 at 10:07 am, WTKTT replied…

    For ADOSH photo P9180003.JPG, which was taken by ADOSH during
    their September 18, 2013 hike accompanied by Joy and Sonny…

    Camera was right here, just EAST of the white fence and looking WEST…
    34.221954, -112.762812

    The CENTER of that large (brown) building seen in center of the clearing is here…
    34.221651, -112.763384

    Notice in the other ADOSH photos taken from same location ( P9180001 and P9180002 ), the fire actually burned the white fence… but ONLY the part that is about 12 to 15 feet to the right of the gate (north) from the camera’s perspective.

    It indicates the fire came AROUND that clearing… and not THROUGH it.

    Reply

      • Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 20, 2015 at 11:27 am

        >> Joy A. Collura said…
        >>
        >> I forget if it was think link or the other that has the OSHA hike
        >> to compliment OSHA’s dropbox…

        That remains an extraordinary collection of photos and videos, Joy.

        Thanks for posting that link.

        I’d also forgotten about this amazing video you shot right at the exact place where Granite Mountain was about to arrive and where they would be working.

        The TITLE of this video could be…. “Exactly what the situation was just before Granite Mountain crew arrived and exactly where they would be working”.

        It’s also an important video in that it shows clearly how much retardant was on the edge of that area where GM would be working BEFORE they even got there… which is then easily compared to later photos showing where Air Attack Rory Collins had then been dumping retardant on their indirect burnouts… AGAINST Eric Marsh’s wishes.

        That video is here…

        https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5911726150683632913/5911728007841829938?authkey=CMSBuJL2pZXeOg&pid=5911728007841829938&oid=112068160404980104272

        The video starts basically looking straight at the area that would become known
        later as the “last resting spot” and the place where Christopher MacKenzie
        would shoot his 3:50 to 3:55 PM photos and videos.

        The video then pans to the RIGHT ( to the EAST ) and we see the line of
        ‘heat’ and spot fires that Granite Mountain would be working on when
        they arrived shortly after this video.

        The video ENDS looking back to the SOUTHEAST and towards Yarnell
        and Glen Ilah as Joy says “see”, showing how far from town the ‘anchor’ was.

        NOTE; The following is what Joy was saying as she was shooting the video.

        ———————————————————–
        I just wanted to take a video because you can hear the poppin’
        noise like there’s gunshots goin’ off. In the distance you’ll see
        some firemen… forestry men… and about thirty of ’em are
        comin’ up the hill now. It’s pretty far from town… I mean…
        three or four miles… see.
        ————————————————————

        Reply

        • And in that same collection… here is that now famous photo of Joy’s that DOES show two ‘mystery FFs’ standing up on the ridge and overlooking the fire BEFORE the Granite Mountain crew ever arrived up there.

          They BOTH appear to have BLACK helmets.

          There is no sign of a RED Helmet as Marsh was wearing.

          It’s pretty much a given that these two ‘mystery FFs’ had to be the last two Lewis DOC crew members that needed to be flown off the fire after spending the night… but even those men had mostly BLUE helmets, not black… and the other conundrum is that these men that Joy photographed are nowhere near the HELISPOT where the ‘extractions’ were taking place.

          Far from it.

          In the photo below…the ‘mystery FFs’ are seen clearly standing on the ridge on the very left side of the photo… and that location is pretty much right near the “last resting place” and where Christoper MacKenzie would eventually shoot his two 9 second videos circa 3:55 pm.

          That’s almost a 1/2 mile from the HELISPOT where DPS chopper N14HX was doing the FF extractions that morning.

          https://plus.google.com/photos/112068160404980104272/albums/5911726150683632913/5911733013746273762?authkey=CMSBuJL2pZXeOg&pid=5911733013746273762&oid=112068160404980104272

          Reply

          • The KEY the locating exactly where those two ‘mystery FFs’ were standing on the left side of the photo above comes on the RIGHT side of the same photo.

            Down there in the bottom right corner of this photo is that now-famous NOTHCED ROCK which appears in countless other photos and videos… including Christopher MacKenzie’s own photos and videos.

            That NOTCHED ROCK was just down the slope from what would become known as the “last resting spot” and that place where we see the men assembling and resting in MacKenzie’s photos and videos.

            Reply

            • A possible of who they were—
              Helitack crew they could have had a sling load waiting to be picked
              up of equipment from the night shift not at the Heli Spot. That would be the only thing I could think why they would be there rather than the Helispot..

              Reply

              • That’s a great guess… and probably right.

                Joy herself does have a few photos that came AFTER that one of the yellow/white BLM chopper N14HX hovering over the area with a ‘drop line’ dangling… but whatever was taking place was obscured by a ridgeline.

                A lot of the bladder bags and supplies that had been delivered the night before ended up somehow getting ‘burned up’ in the fire the night before… and some of that crap was just left up there.

                Those would end up being the unrecovered ‘bladder bags’ that would become the focus of attention later that afternoon when Frisby, Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were out there looking for Granite Mountain and DPS Ranger 58 Chopper spotted these ‘bladder bags’ there still on the ground.

                But as Joy’s other photos show… N14HX was picking up something with a drop line that Sunday morning… and the original report from Shumate on where the bladder bags were originally dropped actually would have been right there near that same ‘last resting spot’ where MacKenzie would shoot his videos.

                Moki Helitack Nate Peck spent the night up there along with Justin Smith and the other Lewis DOC crewmembers.

                I believe there was a piece of evidence that also said he was on the last load of FFs out of there who then ended up talking to the Blue Ridge Hotshots who happened to be ‘staged’ there at the YFD parking lot where the chopper was landing.

                Only fly in the ointment is that I don’t think the Moki Helitack were wearing BLACK helmets, either.

                If that really is Moki Helitack Nate Peck ‘running the door’ of chopper N14HX in some of the AZF photos from Saturday… then Nate Peck was wearing a BLUE hemet, not a BLACK one.

                Regardless… there really is no other plausible explanation for these men seen on the ridge in some of Joy’s photos.

                Granite Mountain still hiking OUT there when these ‘mystery men’ were captured in Joy’s photos.

                Had to be some remnants of the men who spent the night on the ridge after their FAILED Initial Attack on Saturday.

                Reply

                • I have to say, if I could have figured this out by now, I would have. I have many many photographs of Moki Heliack and they’re all keyworded up the wazoo.

                  And I have looked at them and compared them A LOT.

                  Unfortunately, most of these photos show the crew without helmets. Or in blue hats. Or in neither. I’m not sure if that blue helmet it appears Nate Peck is wearing in the video is actually a blue ff helmet or a blue flight helmet. They’re not exactly the same thing. But it’s definitely a head-scratcher.

                  And I have a FB photo of him in September, 2013, holding a RED ff helmet. (I have often wondered “How many helmets do these guys have ANYWAYS??????)

                  There are many photos of the Chase Truck parked on Hays Ranch Road Sunday. In Tom Garigan’s collection, there is a guy with a blue helmet definitely associated with that truck.

                  He also has a bunch of photos with the white truck that later crossed the Air2Air video with the chase truck, and was also seen with it in the Russ Reason video, parked across Hays Ranch Road from the Chase Truck.

                  There are a bunch of fire-fighters milling around in these photos. But they don’t have any helmets on, because because they’ not fighting fire.

                  But the blue helmeted guy is also seen in these photos.

                  Via the photo that that Yarnell resident took of the YFD with the DOC crew at 5:45 Saturday PM (and I can’t remember atm his name but his house burned down), the DOC crew had yellow helmets. So I DO think the blue-helmeted guys in the Guadiana photos and video must be their “overhead.”

                  HOWEVER Jake Guadiana, in one of the videos he captured that evening, USB YARNELL HILL 015.avi, does CLEARLY show a fire-fighter in a BLACK helmet holding a radio.

                  That COULD be the anchor-point for this mystery. That is the ONLY image I have found with a black-helmeted fire-fighter associated with this, besides the photo Joy captured up there Sunday morning (which, all things considered, I have ALWAYS figured was associated with this helitack crew and NOT with the Granite Mountain Hotshots, for all the obvious reasons.

                  But there WAS (at least) ONE firefighter in a black helmet there that Saturday evening.

                  Reply

                  • Yes. Good catch.

                    But we also know the elusive “Justin Smith”, ICT4 Trainee under Russ Shumate, had already been sent up there on Saturday by the time that video was shot.

                    So that could be Smith?

                    OR ( sorry to complicate ) those 2 FFs captured by Joy could have been ‘fresh’ Moki Helitack who came UP on the first flight with N14HX on Sunday to relieve Nate Peck ( he’d been up there all night )… and then THEY walked south the 1/2 mile down from the Helispot and were waiting for N14HX to return with the drop line.

                    Then they just attached all the bladder bags from the day before that had NOT gotten (somehow) burned up when the fire escaped.

                    Then they walked 1/2 mile north again, back to the HELISPOT, and were on the ‘last load’ out of there.

                    Bottom line: Bob Powers is likely right. They were SOME combination of FFs standing in that location just to attach stuff to a drop line.

                    As for the guy sitting alone on that rock and just watching the fire in Joy’s OTHER photograph…

                    …haven’t a clue.

                    Even super-enhancement isn’t reading any color pixels for his helmet… red, blue, green or purple.

                    THAT guy remains a ‘true mystery’.

                    Reply

      • Yarnell librarian Christina Cooper thought me bringing my iguana to the wedding may cause a Bridezilla moment and she said some may perceive me as “attention seeker”…especially folks who do not know me…I think that is what happened in this whole fire aftermath that some think of me as an attention seeker and I am JUST the house wife and DESERT WALKER and that is my part in this and getting as MUCH information DOCUMENTED so when these kids grow up that lost their dad they knew there was Investigative Media folks doing just that…thank you everyone for all the hard work…off to my initiate party at noon than wedding at 5…

        Reply

        • definitely not attention seeking yet I live a lot like a mix of Pippilongstocking (adventures) and Shirley Temple at many phases of her life…My grandpa knew and watched over Shirley Temple…so what someone thinks of me…fine…but again not attention seeker yet I am an adrenaline junkie…or more so “was”

          Reply

      • “even the fantastic man that runs this page John Dougherty scaled the boulders in flip-flops at a pace like mountain goat Tex—but hey, I still try and I still go out and have fun versus eating my mmm…mmm… Hershey bar with almonds”

        LOL, Loving it!!!!!!!!

        This is making my day.

        Thanks Joy!!!

        Reply

        • exactly Marti-

          John Dougherty was TOPS out on the Waevers IN SANDALS…I did write flip flops I am sure I did but I should say toe showing shoes…what I liked about John Dougherty and when he came on a motorcycle—it felt I had a visit from my brother Paul…very much wanting to learn about the Yarnell Fire and very very professional. I have to admit his early on articles were stunners but some of Gary’s posts were too but that’s what I thought was neat…in a world of lost freedoms these men STOOD TALL and spoke/wrote DIRECT and from the heart. I heard alot of people in Prescott when Ered Matthew’s play come out be disgusted I was even a part in any helping of this man John Dougherty…lost a few “so call” friendships over John Dougherty and even got my FIRST ever hearing over John Dougherty’s Investigative Media webpage (aka blog) and like Marti said she would continue to help Joy…I am here on I M to gain clarity for those children who I weep for too many but not enough moments…I think there has been people who grieved one moment of the loved ones who said they could not stand me to now glad I was there 6-30-13…it is all a grieving process…I hold no grudges or carry any burdens of days gone by…back to John Dougherty. So many in Prescott said THIS MAN IS MAKING LOADS OF MONEY OFF THIS…who cares…its called HIS PROFESSION…I do not think he is making money off a tragedy but giving us all the freedom to have a coffee spot or a nightly campfire to park our butts and share publicly vs. whisper, whisper, whisper on the side…that IS the problem in this all…too much whispering and not enough shouting to STOP…ENOUGH…I could sit all night and write amazing things about John Dougherty or Dr. Ted Putnam or Holly (deep loving heart in this whole thing) or Wayne (his cute flex moments I won’ forget and loved his fire terminology education) or John MacLean or Johnny Kirkley from Hawaii or Charley Moseley or Morgan Loew or Fernanda Santos or Michael Kodas/Norbert Hoefler or Josh Eells or Brian Mockenhaupt/Brian Frank or Stephen Pyne or OSHA Bruce Hanna and Brett Steurer…can’t say I liked the article BY Shaun MCKinnon yet I liked the guy and camera guy…AWESOME man Shaun Efran and crew; it was cold but good time with ex GMHS Mando there too. Hey Marti- I have it set to “auto” on the first always for 33 months just in case I am not home or took off on another back country backpack moment; our end is good. I was relieved when Sonny was being Sonny which is not bad but does not match up to what I needed to get done today…I am relieved he did not show to the event. I was surrounded by editors/journalists…people who knew me back as just the desert walker who had gimpy arm who walked from Congress to Wickenburg. I spent most the night speaking to a Congress couple. Sonny would of got a kick out of it. One part to the night I recalled November 11th 1989 this man who was a South Phoenix officer in the area of Roosevelt Street and I knew him and he sat in front of me tonight and who he busted because I use to watch it from roof tops the crime below…kinda similar to this fire he mentioned with me being on the Weaver mountain top I captured crime again because he feels it is a damn crying shame crime that the 19 did not have to die…enough on having to have to remember the fallen and let’s fix the fall and STAND UP—and SPEAK UP!!! Too many cops and other professional fields die because no one talks about the tragedies—just bottle it up until they hit the bottle—
          I am beat tired.
          Good night.
          Sonny, if you see this…I am alright if you stop by…no hard feelings…I just had to get to that event and you had other plans…that did not match mine…it was not a control concern as your mind thinks but I am an avoid-ability gal and I accepted times gone by but for now on I just cannot because alot of the past could of been avoided had I just been firmer…we live amazing moments trailing the desert yet we also live different ways especially when you think a liquid diet from the doctor means barley and malt- corn/rye/wheat…See you on the trails when you are ready to hit them…using blog here because you have no phone and never check emails and Billy said you stopped in a couple times but then left so only option was here that I know you go…all is fine, tired is all.

          Reply

  61. Marti said, “And there is NOTHING more I can really do to help them do that, after all I/we have done here through all this time, to do the dirty and controversial job of picking our way through this whole chaotic mess, with the freedom we have had (by not being, mostly, working wildland fire-fighters), and, thus having NOTHING TO LOSE for saying whatever the heck we decided to say.”

    This is so sudden and expected. I asked how would we know we got the end, but it was only a rhetorical question. I can go on sabbaticals…Marti, you are supposed to be here with WTKTT slogging through reams of bullshit to find gems of information. I don’t know what to say?

    But here is one thing, Retired with 38 asked the question, “If a plan were developed by Marsh, Ops or whomever to pull the crew off the safe black and down to the interface would you as Crew Supt’s make every attempt to have your buggies at you exit point, especially if you knew you were getting a new assignment?”

    So I have been motivated to describe what I was used to fighting hotshot fires, campaign fires, project fires, call them whatever you want, they are big fires that are going to take a lot of resources and a lot of shifts to put out.

    Step 1. Arrive at the fire base camp area. We either got there by driving down the road or flying across the country. Check in with somebody who is charge, at least temporarily. Get a general assignment from somebody who in charge, at least temporarily. The assignment would be very vague. “Go to the (heel, right flank, left flank or head) of the fire and fight it. Get to the fire line, fly there in helicopters, ride there is the back of a big military truck provided by a National Guard transportation company, or a rental school bus or in our own carrier, or just hike there by walking towards the flames and smoke from where we parked the crew carrier.

    Step 2. Work a really long shift that frequently ran to 16 to 24 hours plus whatever we had worked getting to the fire which probably included sleeping on the way. This led to commonly working 24 to 36 hours straight, not counting cat naps that may be taken standing on your feet on the fire line. Survive whatever is thrown at you, fire, terrain, weather, nighttime, heavy smoke, lack of overhead, no overhead, or incompetent overhead without any support or resupply by showing up with, and going to the line with, everything a crew needs to go to work…water, food, tools, fusees, line gear.

    Step 3. Make it back to where you started from where their is now a complete fire camp set up either down the road or in the middle of a remote wilderness, it didn’t matter. There would be big generators, porta potties, klieg lights, caterers, dining tent, crew sleeping areas, supply (where you could get anything you needed) fiancé tent, communications tent with radio caches with radio techs that have been busy setting up repeaters, plans tent with big maps on bulletin boards, copy machines, tables, everything you have in an office, etc, free standing heaters called salamanders, transportation area with either a bunch of big army trucks or big helicopters or both. A little city with everything we needed to fight fire.

    Step 4. Wake up and go to a briefing at the plans tent at either 4:00 p.m. or 4: a.m., depending on whether you were assigned to work day or night shift. At the briefing get a complete rundown of what the fire has done since you went to sleep, look over a big map on a bulletin board while you are given a sheaf of papers, that is called a shift plan. In the shift plan there is everything you need to know to fight the fire, organizational chart, radio frequencies, maps. weather reports, safety concerns e.g., steep terrain, rolling rocks, falling trees, high winds, flames, snakes, poison ivy – pretty much always the same. The maps have organizational boundaries on them, divisions, sectors, helispots, drop points, and most importantly…a narrative telling each person (crew) exactly what they are supposed to do for that shift, who their boss is, who will be working with them, near them or on the other side of the fire from them and all resources available to them. This briefing paper also includes a transportation plan that tells you how you are supposed to get to the fire and get back from the fire. Leave the briefing, your assistant was probably with you at briefing and the squad bosses has gotten the crew ready for the line…all tooled up, watered up with their sack lunches already in their day packs, somebody hands you your lunch, the assistant yells for the crew line up…and we follow the plan by connecting the dots one at a time until the picture is complete. Pretty simple, be a little cog in the wheel. And if you are a hotshot crew, your job is pretty simple…cut hand line and burn it out or backfire it and don’t get seriously hurt or killed while doing it.

    Step 5. Repeat step 4 until the plan you are handed at the briefing is called a demob plan instead of a shift plan, but you still do the same thing…follow the plan by connecting the dots one at a time until you get home or to another fire.

    I still can’t understand what the fuck they were doing on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

    Reply

    • Oh…and one more thing America. Please don’t judge the professional core of wildland firefighters you pay for to protect the billions of dollars of natural resources you own that we as a country have always depended on for almost everything we have or ever will have, wood, water, minerals, gas and oil…everything.

      I fought a lot of fires back in the day from Alaska to the Mexican border and from California to the states on the eastern seaboard and it always went like I described it more or less, federal fire, state fire or fire on private land…it didn’t matter. Sometimes we had more and sometimes we had less, but we never faced anything like they did on the Yarnell Hill Fire.

      Bottom line, your wildland firefighting services and agencies are generally a highly professional and extremely competent bunch of people who almost always do an outstanding job, or you would hear more about them more often.

      Reply

      • Whoops, left out part. And the first shift, counting what you worked before you were dispatched to the fire and the hours worked getting to the fire and then your first shift on the fire, would actually more like 36 to 48 hours, but after that, you got up at 4, either morning or afternoon and then you were on the fire line by 6, either morning or night, work for 12 hours to the next time the big hand on your watch is on 6 again, and then you usually started back to the fire camp because either the day shift or njght shift showed up to take your place on the fire line, although they might be late, just like you were because of unforeseen delays and that point you start working 12 hours shifts plus travel time to and from the line. At that point, you just settle down for the long slog and be a little cog in a great big machine, do your job and depend on everybody else to do theirs and the fire gets put out, either by the wildland firefighters or a change in the weather.

        Reply

        • What happened here in Yarnell indeed would have convinced me that the Forest Service, State, or Local Fire Department is a lackadaisical organization that could give a shit less wherther Yarnell, natural resources, local fauna, and perhaps uninformed camper, trappers, outdoorsmen, etc. located in some obscure canyon burned or not. I have been told the State people actually gave the local fire people the decision as to whether to put the fire out immediately or let it burn. It is said, by sources Dr. Anderson (a former fire board member) had cited that there was an argument as to whether the local firemen should rush up there and do what needed to be done–apparently the boss won out or whomever–the fire was left to burn. Now the State should have ordered them to go but they apparently did not recognize or care to recognize the extreme danger of even a cigarette in this area. It should have been a bright red signal for the area—that fire was only a few miles from Yarnell. My understanding and Bob or Gary will correct me if I am wrong–those wildfires in these conditions can travel as fast as 45 miles per hour. That means it could reach Yarnell in about 5 minutes or less from where it was and at 11 mph that they said it was going then it could would reach Yarnell in 22 minutes if it was about 4 miles away which I estimate its point of origin. Even 5 miles away that fire could reach Yarnell in less than 30 minutes-27 as I calculate and that is travelling at only 11 mph. Knowing all these figures, what were these empty heads thinking that they would not treat that fire as an number one emergency. Likely some on the local fire department did know this and that was the cause of dissension Someone there needs to be reprimanded and maybe several for negligence of duty.

          Now Gary does give me hope that wildland firefighters are indeed an elite group of men who know how to fight fires. They also know when to back off generally. Dr. Ted Putnam explained to me that sometimes the rookie firefighter has to be looked after. He saved two or three and likely many others beside that when he refused to let them take orders from a higher command. He was on the fire and the higher command was not so he could see they would be burned to death if they went down this canyon. Well he had to curse at them to stop them and their gung ho attitude–whether he got thanks for saving their lives or not I do not know–however Ted was relieved that he was able to stop them.

          Which now brings me to the thing I have harped on. That area and what those men did was a gross error in judgement. There is so very much to learn for the rookie fire fighter that it will be a disgrace to the profession if that area does not become a training ground for future fire fighters. You have boulders on each side of the canyon. you have a classical situation where even Joy, the desert walker, thought she could beat, and those men actually believed like her that they could outrun that fire in spite of all calculations of its speedy advance. What more honor can you give those men than to let other young men feel the actual case of which they will certainly entertain later in their efforts as firemen. Those lessons will surely save the new people to the fire fighting profession I would hope people like Gary, Bob or Wayne Neil are at hand to instruct the new fellow. I learned more about safe firefighting in one day hiking with Neil than those men knew in their entire careers. They simply were not taught and as Donut said the rules are hill billy yet what he meant was you do not listen to information that can save your life. While listening to Dr. Putnam and the patience of a Wayne Niel–I was given an understanding of why and how those rules would have saved those men had they taken them seriously. The old timers do take those rules as high priority, something that would keep them from doing what was done here. Something else–the men I have come to know that are firefighters–perhaps would have risked their own lives–a right we have if we are the risk taker–but those men would never put the younger less knowledgeable man at risk. So yes there is accountability here because someone and a bunch of someones put those men at risk. You see, I know this rule from experience since as a miner I was always living at risk. I never saw logging as riskier than mining but indeed it did not involve risking the lives of others unless you dropped a tree on someone that should not have been in your area in the first place. But in mining, when I had risk beyond what is normally expected,. my helper was backed out and I went forward. It is a war underground mining as I see it. But it is a war different to the World Wars. In these wars of mining or fire fighting, the boss has the responsibility of keeping his men safe–If he alone wants to take that risk then so be it. He ought rather to set a good example but here we did not see that.

          What I saw and Joy photographed here was a totally uncontrollable wildfire. Granted it slowly worked its way through the boulders due to low wind conditions and sparse vegetation among the boulders. But once by 11, and some earlier on the side we could not see, it had advanced into the dense dehydrated manzanita, the situation changed from controllable to the stage that all out war could not stop its advance.. We watched sparse retardant drops from small planes at first that had no effect whatsoever on the fire. Then the winds picked up around ten and that fire though it was slowed by its downward progression at first, eventually began the upward progression of the lower hills just below the Weaver Range. That is when I had Joy to time it going up what I figured to be about a half mile rise–then I knew if it changed we needed to be in a safe area.

          Enough–Joy has to be initiated into the American Legion membership.

          .

          Reply

          • sonny said: “Enough–Joy has to be initiated into the American Legion membership.”

            Sonny, if I had known when I walked in that private club to enter closed doors of all women sitting with these reading off sheets and minutes and agendas and such…ugh…when I joined it was because they told Sonny “joy has been in here three times with you, she has to be a member now” and being I help Sonny get home safe vs drink n drive…he paid the dues and they sent me a card and to show up at noon today…????…I am not a gal who sits there in front of a board…last time I did it was over big military man telling me to give him 40 more push ups and I told him to well “cheese and crackers off” because I was in a posh private club because my mother had excellent health insurance and it was available and so no person after a hard ass calisthenics, ropes team building course with idiot team players (zero logic and no competitive team player spirit they had zip…zilch…) and swim and run and weight lifting and basketball and volley ball was going to tell me that at 6am in the tone he did. So dumb. So I had to sit in front of the board as they asked me to apologize to this man and I said “the same man that with eyewitness accounts and one girl Jenn with tape recorder shows the “real” story what led up to my “cheese and crackers”…you see I do not have an ugly way about me until another taunts”…the board looked at me in awe because they thought it was going to be an easy get the girl to apologize and ground her in some disciplined way and I just broke the ice on “the man” so I got the apology not me give it. I one day do expect some apologies from this fire and its aftermath once people start speaking up…and they know who they are…
            Anyways, Sonny that whole meeting at noon…when it was reaching 1:30 mark I had to excuse myself and walk out because not my style that stuff…I felt also I was not going to drive that 73′ Chevy truck; that awful clutch with my bad knee…when my husband got me and went to that wedding- I kept thinking definitely Sonny would not want to be in that sort of Christian dancing and singing and etc. setting so I think I made the proper choice…Please do not ask me to volunteer or be a part of an organization—not my style. I thought you paid a due so I can sit next to you and make sure you get home safe but that was not what I was getting from that meeting…If marti hypothetically said “Joy, I need my house painted”…I would reply to Marti “Budget? or no budget? Traditional or Faux Finish or Murals? Exterior or Interior? Than git r done is what I like to do but this meeting today was about who would want to volunteer for clean-up? Not many. You look around the room and I saw a lady in her 90’s…I think a board member should be direct and say to 44 y.o. lady “Bobbi Jean, I think your talents are great at painting so when we get things cleaned up and walls washed, when could you be available to do something like that because this is our legion and it takes us all to participate vs. allowing ladies in their 90’s to raise their hand. I thought ??? but it did reconfirm…YOU GO my GOLDEN GENERATION FOLKS! I met 85 y.o. father of the bride tonight and he is from Brooklyn, NY and we knew alot about the same spots of NJ/NY; it was nice to talk old school with the fella and his wife and then he broke out the harmonica and played my songs from Eddie Arnold; richest man in the world and Ray Price For the Good Times…I did not learn a lick on the fire except people’s perceptions- no photos and no leads to photos. Okay, good night. BUT IT IS TIME YOU HEAR ME GOD—I know I say in YOUR time GOD so please make it YOUR time and get this rolling for more to start speaking about the YHF that were there…thank you God!

            Reply

          • I believe the Yarnell Hill Fire was an aberration and the entire wildland firefighting culture should not be judged by that fire and what happened there. But if that fire is your only point of reference, I can certainly understand why you would question the integrity of the system as a whole.

            Reply

  62. I just wrote:
    —————————–

    Marti Reed says
    JUNE 19, 2015 AT 9:22 PM

    We’re having a lightning/electrical storm right now.
    ———————

    If anybody is even remotely interested in observing lightning storms (which can cause wildfires), in their own area or in other areas. go here (where I am), and then find your own (or your interested) place:

    http://www.lightningmaps.org/realtime?lang=en

    Reply

    • This is where I observed, last year, all the bits and pieces of the entire Carlton Complex, in the state of Washington, ignite.

      Reply

  63. Ok. I”m going to say something here. Something I’ve been thinking about for a long long time. And maybe have even said before. But not as firmly and with as much dedication as I’m going to say it now.

    I think it’s partly why I wrote downstream in a comment to Gary Olson that, after I read WTKTT’s narrative, and digested it, and made a few comments…………………….

    I felt both positively and negatively
    …………………………………finished.

    I mean, really, I sat there and had this huge sense of “finished” flow over and around me.

    I will never be actually truly finished with this fire. But I feel somehow that my quest here, and responsibility here, is somehow, “completed.”

    I really do believe we found the answer. It needs a lot more fleshing out, but I really do think we have discovered the “why.” And it took pretty much 24/7 from me over the past week, not to mention ALL the work we have put in since this whole conversation began, to co-discover that “why.”

    And here’s another reason why I feel “finished.”

    Because I really believe, at this point, it truly is TIME for wildland fire-fighters to step up to the plate and OWN this fire. Until they do that, they will never ever truly learn what this fire is trying to teach them.

    And it is NOT MY responsibility to do that for them.

    And there is NOTHING more I can really do to help them do that, after all I/we have done here through all this time, to do the dirty and controversial job of picking our way through this whole chaotic mess, with the freedom we have had (by not being, mostly, working wildland fire-fighters), and, thus having NOTHING TO LOSE for saying whatever the heck we decided to say.

    But, really.

    It’s YOUR turn to OWN this thing, and QUESTION this thing, and CHALLENGE this thing, and DO SOMETHING with this thing, because there is, truly nothing more I can do until you do what is YOURS to do to TAKE SOME KIND OF REAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR THIS THING and how it happened and what needs to be done about that by wildland fire-fighters.

    It’s YOUR defensible space around YOU and YOUR house and YOUR family. What are YOU going to do to create YOUR defensible space?

    Because I can’t do that for you.

    That’s why I wrote that, as I sat there and contemplated that narrative that we have struggled for this almost two years to find enough evidence to create, I felt “finished.”

    It’s YOUR turn.

    And THANK YOU for all the various things you have done, on your websites and blogs, and via your awesome and very helpful YouTube videos, and within the various conversations I have lurked and anonymously peered into, when I could find them, and whatever helpful comments you have left in these multiple chapters…………………..

    …………to teach me about how wildland fire-fighters fight wildland fires. I promise to use that generously donated knowledge to help my civilian friends and relations respect and understand and support that as much as I can.

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • And PS.

      I will continue to support Joy in her continuing quest to also keep pursuing the Truth, (because she LIVES there and can’t just walk away, and because I KNOW she has a powerful spiritual connection with these 19 wildland fireighters), in whatever way I can, even though sometimes I may come in a little bit late because I hate email (especially Apple Mail)……….

      ……….and because she has given to me SO MUCH INSPIRATION every time I feel (and I have felt this a lot) like the burdens I am (literally and physically and emotionally and mentally) carrying are just so much bigger than I am, and she knows exactly what I am talking about when I am saying this.

      Reply

    • Marti, first thank you for all your time and commitment to finding the facts of this tragedy. I still struggle with the fact that we (especially you and a few others) have established far more detail than the “official reports” were able to produce, and again I truly appreciate the efforts to this point.
      I have been a wildland firefighter for 38 years, and quite frankly I am embarrassed and ashamed with this entire event, from the failed initial attack through the BS report from the SAIR. We are in a dangerous and hazardous business, and sometimes things go wrong.
      We have always tried to become stronger and better from these events, identifying the mistakes made and learning from those mistakes and moving forward – always remembering the lessons learned and the FF’s that paid the price.
      So, for the firefighters out there that have information that we can learn from, step up – and for the federal agencies that have placed a “gag order” on the people that have information let them talk. We all want to learn from “real details”.
      Just seems ironic that USFS calls themselves a “Learning organization” yet they wont release the facts or allow their employees to talk about the most significant fatality fire in the history of wildland firefighting. And for the non federal FF’s that have established that “brotherhood” and code of silence, think about it – in the short term it may work, but for the entire WFF’s we need to know the facts so we can reduce the chance of it happening again.

      Reply

        • Well Said another AMEN

          Marti there have been severial Current Fire Fighters that have come on her and
          joined the conversation I am sure many more are following us and talking to some in my local area they are searching and asking questions and not letting this just go away. You have done some awesome work here and it has rewarded us with many details.
          Stay the course all is not lost. none of us expect you to Carrie the entire load chose your time and lighten your burden as we move along.
          Thanks you are and have special qualities that have helped us move forward.

          Reply

  64. Yesterday was very frustrating with technology. Aguila library had 2 power outages right in middle of my printing some important documents. All lost. ***frustrating*** I went to Wickenburg and than as the night unfolded a person shared “do not send that letter Joy to Paul Morin”. I thought if I only ask one direct question to 17613 W Westward Dr Yarnell and if he was the dozer operator because Hunter family had damage to their 2 story home wall by a dozer on 6-30-13 before fire engulfed it…and some ?s of another. I heard “Joy, do not. I know your heart is in this but I also know the whole area over there. Morin has a wife who works in county and relatives who has or still does work in the firefighter/Prescott Hotshot community. You are not liked by some in that area. Let someone else do that ground work. I doubt the man would answer you anyways. Be careful. You are not viewed by all for who you are but what they perceive you to be…”

    Now for a person who use to write on here that seems to think I want further online communication…let me make it crystal clear; I do not—only in person only or nothing at all—-…June 14 at 9pm on IM I stated no more and at 9:07pm you wrote (number one) and I will not reply..On June 16th 12:02pm I got an email requesting photos. (number two) I did not reply. June 19th 5:54am (number three) you sent me an email that belonged to Sonny only because first off I did not even know of the IM post in email by him until I saw your email today. I am not Sonny. He has his way of things and I have my way of things—the only thing that roots us is our hikes and the desert and caves…and similar food intake but not liquid intake unless its freshly juiced carrot and ginger juice…I learned by my case what injunctions mean and your continued communication when I asked you to only do in person communication…((((Injunction Against Harassment
    The Defendant has committed a series of
    acts (more than one) of harassment/annoyance against
    you in the last year)))))) I got first hand to see how simple they pass these out now too to mark another’s character for what and why. I would not do this to anyone even to the men who left me for dead and a person who sits in jail and gets out soon for dismembering a body and I have a feeling I am on their list because I am a relative not by blood and I would not even do that to them more than likely…I help people with severe mental conditions/disabilities/criminally insane to re-adjust to a new-normal in this modern society and I would not even do that to them and I have been in some near death moments with some of their ill/off behaviors. I respect people their freedom to write and if I see something out of sort I correct it. I did not attack you as you asked why I did…yet down below I commented someone named this a gossip site on another blog and Mr. Powers mentioned your name and let’s just look at that site…sounds a lot like the phone conversations and email topics we spoke about minus the praises someone made on the site. You have spoke about this Fred and weather to me. This blog has no ABOUT ME/US page to see who owner of page to check out the reliability of the site…so it is safe to assume because in October 2013 you asked us both what do we want to see out of the investigations and we replied the cell records and as October & November unfolded into December 2013 you told us next week in Dec 2013 you were due to get the FOIA/FOIL in and than we never heard anything from you on them… just public youtube videos and such after Holly’s article at Gabbert’s. Also all I have ever said about you and that was to you and others on IM that I like you and your prior videos before the fire yet I do not like how you ask for all the questions of yours to be answered with my sources as you say “anything we share to you is complete confidentiality” yet have you listened yet to my case’s transcripts with Willis/Dr. Ted Putnam and etc???? (once you do you will see why) and if they do not meet your thoughts you want to carry on back and forth on days I have been under the weather and so I kindly stated publicly I cannot do it anymore…no more online communications about you or directed to you nor from you to me….unless you write about the hikers publicly…if you do not…you will never hear me mention you again even if others end up doing so Enough on that. Remedy? Always with Joy. But not anytime soon. I have Sonny who is having a lung procedure and heart surgery and a mom in a grieving spot over the loss of so many in one swallow in our family and yet stubborn me still kicks trying to reverse history and labs and make for a better today and tomorrow…if you are all for BETTER todays and tomorrows than fine…I have a journalist’s wedding to go to tomorrow and I just look forward to seeing her getting married yet dread this heat…ok, going to read…have 8 minutes left on library time…reserved for another…

    Reply

    • Joy is a straight shooter. She shuts down with people that use ploys and deception to get her information–I have seen it first hand. As far as I have seen no one on this site has offended that rule of life. These people here are not liked in certain circles because they are actively exposing the white washed reasons the 19 young men were killed. However, their aggravation is minute compared to the pain that the loved ones have suffered in this ordeal. I speak from the heart and from my own experience of loss. You can bet the loved ones are thanking those involved in finding out the truth of why they died. Many firefighters are in favor of learning the truth, especially those that are of lower ranks. They want to know if their leaders are qualified to lead them into a dangerous situation. Obviously here in the Yarnell fire situation we had incompetence from the get go. That is perhaps only one of the things that needs to be addressed here but there are many lessons to be learned out of this screw up. Those lessons will save future lives.

      One thing I have brought up with people involved and not involved is that that area ought to be a training area as to what not to do and what options can be made that would have saved those men. I would be the first to stand in the middle of those boulders to the south if another fire happens in that bowl should another fire happen in that manzanita. It likely will because it is already back enough that another wild fire is possible. I believe they would have survived in the boulders—and they had clear areas much larger than the Helms so called bomb proof area. But there are so many things to be learned there for the rookie fire fighter that it would be a shame not to use that area for training–and to even train not so informed boss fire fighter figures.

      Thanks Marti, WTKTT, Bob Powers, Gary Olsen, Otis in the UK, Federal Officers like Charley Mosley, and investigators such as Dr. Ted Putnam, Bruce Hanna Bret Steuter, Wayne and Holley Neil, locals whom have shared so much with us and the many who did hike and see what they did not really want to see–yet had to know the truth. May all you concerned and wise people continue to bring to light and educate those of us who want the truth continue to be diligent to the task. Please do not quit until this is finished.

      Reply

      • Sonny, you wrote:

        “Obviously here in the Yarnell fire situation we had incompetence from the get go. That is perhaps only one of the things that needs to be addressed here but there are many lessons to be learned out of this screw up. Those lessons will save future lives.”

        And yes I totally agree.

        And that “incompetence from the get go” is what ADOSH addressed (at least as much as they had the limited time and also need to do so before they levied their possible maximum fines) but still hasn’t been adequately addressed, imho, by the wildland fire-fighting community. Not even remotely.

        Especially if they are really serious about “what will save future lives.”

        Reply

  65. **
    ** PHOTO(S) OF WHERE THE DOZER MIGHT HAVE HAD TO RIDE OUT THE FIRE

    As long as we are re-visiting this whole mystery of why Yavapai County Public Works employee and dozer operator Paul Morin was added to the ‘missing persons’ list following the deployment… I think the following is relevant.

    There have always been some pretty clear photos of this ‘staging area’ at the bottom of the Sesame clearing area where the dozer LOBOY was staged, and where Mr. Morin might have had to ‘ride out the burnover’ in either the cab of the dozer or the cab of the LOBOY trailer.

    They were taken by ADOSH investigators on one of their hikes.

    On the hike they took on September 18, 2013, the ADOSH investigators actually BEGAN their hike there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drives ( where the pavement ends ).

    They then started walking WEST, through that ‘white fence’ that was there and then on into the Sesame clearing area where the Granite Mountain vehicles had been staged.

    The FIRST THREE photos in the folder from this hike were taken just as they were about to pass through the ‘white fence’ and they show the exact ‘clearing’ where both the Yavapai County dozer LOBOY trailer and the Blue Ridge Chase Truck with Polaris trailer were staged.

    Here’s a direct jumplink to that folder in the ADOSH Dropbox…

    “Yarnell Hill Investigation / Photos and Videos / ADOSH Hiking Yarnell Hill 9 18 13”

    https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAD3qBIoirUtUPykDaoj_5KMa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ADOSH%20Hiking%20Yarnell%20Hill%209%2018%2013?dl=0

    Look at the first THREE photos in this folder…

    P9180001.JPG
    P9180001.JPG
    P9180001.JPG – The best view of where Dozer LOBOY was staged

    It’s pretty safe to say, looking at these photos, that the area was survivable.

    It would have been more like a ‘burn-around’ as was the case with Boulder Springs Ranch.

    Reply

  66. Reply to Marti Reed post on June 18, 2015 at 8:59 pm

    >> Marti Reed said…
    >>
    >> You wrote:
    >>
    >> “So yes… if anyone was in the right POSITION to see if there
    >> was anything resembling a chance at putting in an emergency
    >> dozer line that *might* make the fire skirt AROUND Glen Ilah
    >> rather than go THROUGH it…
    >>
    >> …that person would have been “top o’ the world” DIVSA Eric Marsh.”
    >>
    >> OK, I”ll toss in a little pebble into these waters, just to see if If I’m wrong.
    >> And you can roll your eyes into the back of your head in exasperation.
    >> Because I KNOW you have a vastly more complete set of timelines on
    >> all of this than I do, and I have to even keep searching, via Google, this
    >> website to find things that I have never even read, or read (or even
    >> wrote) that I have, by now, lost track of.
    >>
    >> So I’m OK with being embarrassed by asking this.
    >>
    >> Where do you think Eric was actually located during this?

    The same place he spent most of the afternoon.

    At a spot on the high ridge, about 1/4 mile north of where Steed and the Crew were working.

    Perhaps even standing up on the Helispot, which was one of the highest points up in that area but not too far north of the GM workplace.

    It was the perfect place to see all of the things the testimony reports him seeing such as the fire burning through the retardant line and, later, his reporting that the fire had reached the place where the GM vehicles had been parked, etc.

    This would also match the testimony from Brendan McDonough that Marsh was, for most of the afternoon, at a spot on the ridge roughly due west of Brendan’s lookout mound, but up high on the ridge.

    Brendan described Marsh’s location as “above me up on the hill”.

    From PDF page 12 of Brendan’s SECOND ADOSH interview on 10/10/2013

    Q1 = Bruce Hannah, ADOSH investigator
    Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg, ADOSH investigator
    A = Brendan McDonough
    ———————————————————
    538 Q1: Steed could you see move?
    539
    540 A: Yeah.
    541
    542 Q1: Okay.
    543
    544 A: And so can Eric ‘cause Eric was kinda above me up on the hill.

    588 Q2: Got it.
    589
    590 A: ‘Cause Eric was, like, literally right above me pretty much, I mean,
    591 everywhere that I wanted to say, he was telling Jesse. So, I mean, it’s kinda
    592 pointless. At that point, it was like, “Eric, I’m seeing the same thing.” He’s
    593 like, “Yeah, of course,” you know?
    ———————————————————

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Assuming that our current general consensus is that, at some time,
    >> Eric was moving down somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch,
    >> where he may have “ordered” Jesse to bring the crew down (the “pull”
    >> theory), at a bit before 4:27 when he said “They’re coming off the
    >> heel of the fire.”

    Yes. It’s pretty safe to say that when we hear Eric telling whoever it was that he was reporting TO in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video that they (GM) were “comin’ from the heel of the fire”… it was shortly after the alleged ‘argument’, Marsh had already ORDERED him to bring the men down, and Steed had already capitulated and he and the men were already descending into the box canyon.

    Marsh said that at exactly 4:27 PM.

    The SAIR says the ‘Descent’ began at 4:20 PM.

    The first MAYDAY was going to come at 4:39 PM.

    So ( theoretically )… when Marsh reported to this mystery person that “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”… Steed and Crew were about halfway between the Descent Point and the eventual deployment site and already ‘blind’ to what was approaching the mouth of the box canyon.

    If you are asking me to say exactly where MARSH himself was when he said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”…

    …basically your guess is as good as mine.

    Somewhere between the eventual deployment site and the west edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch?

    Calvin has always theorized he was up on one of those small mounds that are there just west of the western edge of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

    He might be right… but ( of course ) my only problem with that has always been that it would be absolutely unimaginable that if he was actually up on one of those mounds that he would NOT have been able to see ( and been fully aware of ) the fireline fast approaching the mouth of the canyon long before it actually got there.

    In other words… he would have had a relatively crystal clear view of the fireline approaching and it is inconceivable he would have then let his own men walk into a deathtrap like they did.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Obviously he was somewhere “up above” where the GM Hotshots
    >> were (I guess) when he asked Frisby to come up and meet with him.
    >> Along about 3:30, I guess.

    Yes. We are now back to 3:30 PM and I believe Marsh was still there in that general area where Brendan says he was. Just ‘above’ the lookout mound but up on the high ridge. Perhaps at the Helispot itself.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> When, we’re currently thinking he may have been contemplating
    >> the possibility/necessity of putting in this line.

    Yes. Right after Marsh watched the fire march right over that retardant line ( and reported this event on a TAC channel ), I believe it’s possible he realized what was GOING to happen and he only then turned his focus back towards Yarnell and Glen Ilah.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> So, yes, at that time he was the penultimate “eyes on the fire.”

    Correct.

    He may have then started using his own binoculars from that ‘near the Helispot’ location to see if he saw ANY possibility of any emergency ‘defensive’ work off there on the outskirts of both Yarnell and Glen Ilah.

    It actually would have been his JOB to be doing that, at that point.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> But where was he when, possibily Musser was pinging him at
    >> about 3:40-ish, or when Cordes and Musser were “sketching the
    >> plan on a napkin” at 3:50-ish to 4:00?

    Musser’s callout to DIVSA Marsh came at exactly 3:42 PM.

    Marsh didn’t answer him right away because this is also the same exact moment that Brian Frisby had accidentally stumbled across McDonoug and was loading him into the UTV and informing Marsh/Steed this is what was happening.

    That’s when the “Do you want us to move your vehicles?” conversations were also taking place and Marsh was involved in those exchanges with Frisby as well.

    So the Panebaker Air Study Video that captures OPS2 Paul Musser’s callout to DIVSA Marsh at exactly 3:42 PM ENDS before we ever hear DIVSA Marsh respond.

    We have to assume that the minute he was done talking to Frisby and confirming it would be “goodness” to move ALL the GM vehicles… Marsh responded to OPS2 Paul Musser’s 3:42 PM callout to him and they then had this infamous “availability check” exchanges.

    Call it 3:43 or 3:44 when that actually happened.

    Now… to answer your question “Where was he when THIS happened?”

    We are now 12 minutes past the time when Marsh first asked Frisby to head up for that second face-to-face.

    I believe that as soon as Frisby said he WOULD be coming up is when Marsh then started ‘picking his way through the black’ up there and working his way back SOUTH towards the actual spot where Steed and the Crew were working…and where he knew Brian Frisby would be arriving for the requested face-to-face.

    So by the time 3:42 PM came and Frisby called up to say he would NOT be coming up for the face-to-face because he was now going to just ‘rescue’ Brendan… Marsh had probably already made it all the way back to where Steed and the crew were working ( E.g. the anchor point ) and where he thought Frisby was about to arrive.

    I believe Marsh was actually physically WITH Jesse Steed again, at this moment, and for really one of the only few times that day they were physically in the same place at the same time.

    I also believe some “What do we do now?” conversations took place between Marsh and Steed ‘in person’ and with no radio traffic being generated.

    I believe this is when Marsh FIRST asked Steed ( face-to-face ) about his ‘comfort level’ for doing something… since by the time we here that ‘comfort level’ phrase again in the Christopher MacKenzie videos… Marsh says to Steed “That’s why I was askin’ ya BEFORE what your comfort level was”.

    I believe the “asked ya BEFORE” is referencing some part of the conversation they had in-person earlier on, when Marsh himself was at the anchor point.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Is it possible that at that time he was down below enough that he
    >> no longer had that awesome view of what the fire was doing?

    If by “at that time” you are still referring to 3:42 PM and both the conversations with Frisby about moving the vehicles and then ( immediately after that ) the “availability check” conversation with OPS2 Paul Musser…

    …then no. I don’t think Marsh had started heading south yet.

    I believe he was still there at the ‘anchor point’ and physically with Steed circa 3:42 and had been expecting Frisby to arrive there as well.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> I’m just asking for a friend.

    Tell your friend the only dumb question is the one that is never asked.

    And it pains me to think how relative that well-worn phrase is with regards to the actual ADOSH interviews… and all the questions that never got asked.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And, during the time Cordes and Musser were actually IMPLEMENTING
    >> that plan, is there any evidence they were actually in communication
    >> with him as he was descending lower and lower, while (I would assume)
    >> losing more and more of that awesome bird’s eye view?
    >> (Other than, possibly, something related to that 4:27 communication).

    Actually, there is.

    It’s in the form of that confusing testimony from Gary Cordes when he tells ADOSH he learned that the fire had now burned past the old-grader itself, but Cordes couldn’t remember if he heard that from Marsh himself or whether he was told that by Frisby… who had heard it from Marsh.

    The fire didn’t actually burn past the old-grader itself until AFTER 4:05 PM, and Jesse and the men had already left the safe black and were heading south.

    So if Cordes heard this ‘news’ from Marsh himself it seems to mean at least two things…

    1) Cordes WAS in communication with Marsh as he was making his way to the BSR.

    2) Marsh had still been ‘high enough’ and able to see ‘well enough’ to look back over his shoulder as he hiked south and see that the fire had overtaken the old-grader… and he reported this ( either direct to Cordes or to Frisby who then passed that ‘news’ on to Cordes ).

    Continued next message…

    Reply

    • >> Marti also wrote…
      >>
      >> Or were Cordes and Musser just assuming that whatever Eric might
      >> have communicated somewhere between 3:40 and 4 was still continuing
      >> to be reliable? Even while/after the fire was, ala Cordes, exceeding
      >> his/their expectations?

      If the ‘plan’ itself had originated with Marsh… and he first discussed it with Musser on that 3:42 “availability” check… then I think the wheels had already been set in motion down in Yarnell and Cordes had already then given Cory Ball his “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah” assignment.

      At that point… eveyone thought they knew what to do and there wasn’t much need for further communication.

      But there WERE some ‘communications’.

      At 4:13 PM is when we hear that voice with the slight Cajun accent calling out to Granite Mountain and asking… “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?”

      That’s when Eric Marsh said “Well… uh… the guys… uh…. Granite Mountain, is makin’ their way out the escape route from the mornin… SOUTH… mid-slope, cuttin’ over”

      And then in response to the next question “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?” Marsh DODGED that question and just said…

      “Just checkin’ it out to see where we gonna jump out at”.

      We do NOT here any discussion of any ‘plan’ during THESE ‘status check’ calls from whoever the hell it was making those radio calls.

      It was then at 4:27 PM when someone ( not Marsh ) got nervous and was wondering why Marsh and Granite Mountain hadn’t appeared in town yet.

      That’s when the YARNELL-GAMBLE video was shot and Marsh appears to tell someone who wanted him to “Hurry up” that “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

      But there are no specific conversations captured that mention any ‘plan’.

      It doesn’t mean they didn’t happen via either radio or cellphone.

      They just aren’t in any audio captures and no one has testified hearing anything like that.

      Keep in mind that Cordes and Musser, down there in town, could only SEE what they could SEE.

      In other words… they were clueless as to what was happening out in the bowl/valley itself. They would have had no idea whether any fire was threatening Granite Mountain or coming in so fast from ‘out there’ that any ‘plan’ about protecting Glen Ilah was pointless.

      Cordes and Musser would have needed ‘other intel’ for that… and Cordes no longer even had the ability to transmit on the Air-To-Ground channel and even ASK the flyboys what was going on.

      I believe we have established that at some point… Cordes DID get the ‘intel’ he needed about ‘the plan’ and whether it was going to come together… and he got that from Cory Ball himself.

      At some point… Cory Ball had to call Cordes and/or Musser and say…

      “You know that emergency dozer line scouting to protect Glen Ilah you told me to do? Well guess what… I got all bollocksed up and couldn’t even get back to the dozer guy out there at the west end of Glen Ilah”.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> As I write this, I’m realizing this may be a pointless theoretical set
      >> of questions. Given what was actually happening during that time.

      It’s not a pointless set of questions.

      It’s about realizing that a coin always has THREE SIDES ( not just TWO ), and whether standing the coin on its THIRD side ( its edge ) shows us anything new.

      I will grant you… even if Marsh was the ‘author’ of any kind of plan to put in any kind of emergency dozer line… there are still pieces of evidence missing that would make that all make sense.

      But that’s pretty much the same for the ‘other’ sides of the coin.

      We have evidence that it could have come from Cordes and/or Musser… and then Granite Mountain got involved AFTER they set the wheels in motion…

      …but that’s “incomplete evidence” and a “sealed envelope” as well.

      My bottom line is that even with some bumps and warts and obvious other unanswered questions… I would BELIEVE that if there was a plan for more dozer line near Glen Ilah and this DID have anything to do with Granite Mountain leaving the black…

      … I would BELIEVE that this ‘plan’ actually did ‘incubate’ with DIVSA Marsh himself and then he became the de-facto AUTHOR of ‘the plan’.

      Reply

      • I think your putting way to much mental gymnastics and planning on Marsh he may have been part of the plan but the mental creator of it?????

        Again they were running a gauntlet on a slim time table that was way to tight to accomplish the objective. This is a bad division with the really bad outcome.

        Protecting structures that were not in a position of Defensible space is folly Wild land Fire Fighters Die buy getting into Subdivisions with no defensible space we have been talking about that for this entire time.

        Some where in the report there was a discussion that there was little defensible space in Yarnell and Glen Isla. No place to really make a stand to save structures.
        It may have been Willis that had surveyed that and reported on it.

        This whole plan was a day late and a dollar short—-and the OPS/IC and others should have known it. Trying to put together in one hour a possible tractor push and burn out with a Fire going to hell within a quarter of a mile from a Subdivision
        is nothing but a plan for disaster by Over Head that have no clue.

        That’s my evaluation of this Whole plan— Not that it wasn’t put together but that it was a hail marry with a disasters’ out come that no one considered.

        Reply

          • I really believe that everybody, at least those on the south side of the fire, should have been ORDERED by Incident Command/Incident Management Team off the fire and into safety zones no later than 3 PM, if not sooner, with that weather coming in, combined with peak burning hours.

            I’m not so sure about the ones on the north end. They were actually kind of accomplishing something. But they also had engines. And relentless air support.

            Instead, Incident Command had no clue what was going on on his fire (except for that his ICP was in danger, so all stops pulled to protect that) and Incident Management wandered into concocting this hair-brained plan that, all things considered, should have been scotched by 4 PM.

            OK. I’m just an arm-chair civilian monday-morning quarterback who has no clue.

            Reply

            • “this hair-brained plan that, all things considered, should have been scotched by 4 PM.”

              Regardless of who – of the triad Marsh/Cordes/Musser – originally incubated it.

              Reply

              • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 19, 2015 at 8:14 am

                >> Marti Reed said…
                >>
                >> “this hair-brained plan that, all things considered,
                >> should have been scotched by 4 PM.”
                >>
                >> Regardless of who – of
                >> the triad Marsh/Cordes/Musser – originally
                >> incubated it.

                Agree… but the ‘takeaway’ here from this thread is that as we continue to apply ‘steam’ to this particular ‘envelope’ of mystery that still needs more evidence…

                …it behooves us to remember that it *could* have been a TRIAD of ‘authors’… and not just some idea in the mind of one person.

                One of those potential ‘authors’ died.

                But the other two are still with us and NOT protected by a Federal GAG order.

                Reply

                • Exactly.

                  I find myself, at this moment, wondering what the lawyers for the families in the wrongful death lawsuits, have, themselves, discovered about THIS whole thing.

                  I really hope, given that we unpaid AMATEURS have managed to connect all these dots to FINALLY find this, their PAID lawyers and their PAID staffs have managed to connect all these dots, also. Or if they haven’t, they REALLY NEED to.

                  Or else these families and their lawyers have every right and responsibility to shut down all that “Settlement” crappola and force these people to a witness stand.

                  Reply

        • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 19, 2015 at 6:37 am

          >> Bob Powers said…
          >>
          >> I think your putting way to much mental gymnastics and
          >> planning on Marsh he may have been part of the plan
          >> but the mental creator of it?????

          At the very least, I believe Marsh must have heard the same radio transmissions ( on TAC ) where Gary Cordes himself was telling Blue Ridge Hotshot and DOZB Cory Ball to go ‘scout’ this potential ‘hail-mary’ plan.

          There no reason to believe Marsh did NOT hear the radio traffic that matches this clear and unambiguous directive from Cordes as reported by Cory Ball in his official (signed) Unit Log…

          “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.”

          Now whether that ‘assignment’ from Cordes to Ball ( and one other ) was preceded by a conversation with Marsh himself… who might have been actually making the suggestion to do this… that’s what we don’t know.

          Only Gary Cordes ( or anyone who might have heard THAT conversation on the radio ) could tell us that.

          >> Bob Powers…
          >>
          >> Some where in the report there was a discussion that there
          >> was little defensible space in Yarnell and Glen Isla. No place
          >> to really make a stand to save structures.

          Yes. That was SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ evaluation from his scouting in the wee hours of Sunday, June 30, 2013.

          But then there they were… first thing Sunday morning ( and all day )… spending hundreds of thousands of dollars doing exactly that.

          If you read Gary Cordes’ scouting reports the right way… then the only thing they should have been doing first thing Sunday morning is assisting with full evacuations of both Yarnell and Glen Ilah.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> It may have been Willis that had surveyed that and reported on it.

          At the same time Gary Cordes was scouting Yarnell and Glen Ilah in the wee hours of Sunday morning… Darrell Willis ( SPGS2 ) was doing the same ‘evaluations’ on the NORTH side in the Model Creek and Peeples Vallery area.

          His conclusions were pretty much the same as Cordes’ down there in Yarnell.

          If the fire came in… there wasn’t much anyone would be able to do.

          “Non-defensible structures”

          Yet again… just like on the SOUTH side… the moment resources started showing up on Sunday morning… a tremendous effort was then made on the NORTH side to try and “Defend structures” like the Double-Bar-A Ranch.

          Darrell Willis’ scouting report even specifically mentioned the Double-Bar-A Ranch off by itself there in the middle of nowhere and the middle of all that FUEL… and he called it “Not defensible”.

          But THOUSANDS of dollars were wasted trying to defend it.

          We still don’t really know who either over-rode Willis’ scouting report on that one location, or just never paid any attention to it at all and sent tons of resources out there in that failed effort to protect it.

          The Model Creek Road defensive stand was a better try… but even Darrell Willis himself told ADOSH that it wasn’t anything they did that made the fire sort of ‘pull up’ at the Model Creek Road.

          It was simply the fact that the wind changed, and the fire decided to do a 180 turnaround that day.

          Willis told ADOSH that if that had not happened…. then the fire would have still just kept marching north and the community of Peeples Valley would have ended up looking pretty much like Glen Ilah.

          Not TOTAL devastation… but skipty-bumpus devastation.

          I guess my point is… pretty much EVERYTHING ( with a few exceptions ) they were doing was ‘wasted effort’ that day… so a last-minute plan to push just one more worthless dozer line would have just been ‘normal’ for the way that fire was being handled.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> This whole plan was a day late and a dollar short—-and
          >> the OPS/IC and others should have known it. Trying to put
          >> together in one hour a possible tractor push and burn out with a
          >> Fire going to hell within a quarter of a mile from a Subdivision
          >> is nothing but a plan for disaster by Over Head that have no clue.

          I agree. It was folly.

          So was pretty much EVERYTHING they thought they were doing.

          >> Bob Powers also said…
          >>
          >> That’s my evaluation of this Whole plan— Not that it wasn’t
          >> put together but that it was a hail marry with a disasters’
          >> out come that no one considered.

          Totally agree.

          The ‘takeaway’ from this thread, though, is that if this ‘hail mary’ plan existed at all… it’s very likely that it had THREE potential authors, and not just two.

          DIVSA Eric Marsh, SPGS1 Gary Cordes and OPS2 Paul Musser.

          It was a TRIAD of potential authors… and a THREE sided coin.

          One of them died.

          But two are left and not protected by any Federal GAG orders.

          Reply

          • And what the hell were they doing putting Fire Fighters at RISK to save
            Structures. That could not be saved and a last minuet effort at that.
            Like the State said they were not responsible to save structures.
            And all day they put people in that position and in the end almost caused additional Fatalities on the fire. which they were cited for by ADOSH.

            Reply

            • “Like the State said they were not responsible to save structures.
              And all day they put people in that position and in the end almost caused additional Fatalities on the fire. which they were cited for by ADOSH.”

              Excellent point.

              Just one OTHER of the profound ironies of this fire.

              Reply

              • Yes. Thousands and thousands and thousands of taxpayer dollars were spent all that weekend doing nothing but things the Arizona Forestry lawyers have now claimed were never, for one second, their responsibility to even be attempting…

                …and 19 lives were lost doing these same things that no one was supposed to be doing ( legally speaking ).

                I.Just.Can’t.

                Reply

                • And at least one Judge has AGREED with the Arizona Forestry lawyers.

                  The Judge’s ruling said…

                  “I agree. You ( as an agency ) never had one single atomic molecule of either duty or responsibility to be lifting one single finger to protect any structure or piece of property… or to see that any of these same taxpayers who pay your salaries and who were in harm’s way were properly notified to evacuate. Period. End of story. Have a nice day”.

                  Again… I.Just.Can’t.

                  Reply

      • Thanks for the great run-down and excellent timeline, WTKTT.

        I even saved it to an rtf so I won’t loose it.

        There have been times I’ve thought, I should ask WTKTT if he has a complete timeline somewhere that he’d be interested in sharing.

        Once Eric was no longer in a position to see the fire, that role got switched to Cory Ball, whether there was a conversation about it or not. Unfortunately even HE was not in a position to keep “eyes on the fire on the mountain, all the time” but he did try. That’s what his photos from Musser’s truck were. Looking at the fire.

        Maybe he was even sending those images to somebody.

        Another thought that also came to mind while I was reading this was how kind of weird it was that Gary Cordes waited until chaos was totally in the rule and his troops had “finished” fleeing Harper Canyon to request Esquibel to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

        I know I know I know, his task force was busy. But it just seems that if he and Musser could have figured out they needed to pre-plan an ATV for Ball as early as I think they must have had to, they could have also figured out they needed to pre-plan transportation for GM a bit earlier, also. All things considered.

        “They thought they had enough time.”

        Thanks, Gary Cordes.

        Reply

        • >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> I know I know I know, his task force was busy. But it just seems
          >> that if he and Musser could have figured out they needed
          >> to pre-plan an ATV for Ball as early as I think they must have
          >> had to, they could have also figured out they needed
          >> to pre-plan transportation for GM a bit earlier, also.
          >> All things considered.

          The fact that Cordes did NOT do what you are suggesting could actually be construed as just one more piece of indirect evidence that there WAS some kind of ‘plan’ in place… and that the point of Granite Moutain making it to the vicinity of the Boulder Springs Ranch was NOT because that was for a “dust off”… it was because that’s where they were supposed to GET TO WORK on something in that same vicinity.

          What we might be witnessing, with that radio conversation between Cordes and Esquibel, is the moment when Cordes realized that whatever ‘plan’ was in place and whatever ‘next assignment” had been in store for Granite Mountain was NOT going to happen.

          So only now… at the same moment all of Cordes’ resource were running for their lives in Harper Canyon and Shrine area did Cordes realize he better make sure Granite Mountain was getting off the fire as well.

          And he knew exactly WHERE someone should go and make sure they were getting off the fire like everyone else was.

          The Boulder Springs Ranch.

          Reply

          • You said:

            “it was because that’s where they were supposed to GET TO WORK on something in that same vicinity.”

            So, if you are correct on this (and I am understanding this), that this was in Cordes’ head……..

            ……then what was in Gary Cordes’ head (via, possiby Eric’s head) was that GM would be able to, relatively quickly, hoof it from the Boulder Springs Ranch, via that Driveway that led out from there to wherever “they” were imagining that dozer line that would be heading southwest from that place you have located earlier, down that draw would have met them.

            Yes, I can imagine that being a slide in both (or three) of their heads. And, thus, not necessitating a “pre-positioned” plan for any vehicles to have met them there at the Boulder Springs to safely pull them out of there – until everything went south into total chaos and Gary Cordes realized that was happening, and thus, requested his Strike Force Leader (Trainee) to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to meet them and get them out “safely.”

            So THAT means that, by THAT time, Gary Cordes must have realized “The Plan” was basically toast, even though GM was heading down as a result of trying to fulfill it. and he needed to (finally) take responsibility for trying to get some kind of transportation over to them to get them (safely) from the Boulder Springs Ranch to some kind of, relatively speaking, safe (and, potentially after that, useful) place.

            Is that what you are “seeing” here?

            Reply

                • I find myself sitting here wondering, after all of this, when, exactly, Gary Cordes finally REALIZED that this “Plan” was toast.

                  And what “slide” he had inside his mind when he realized that.

                  All things (including all the – possibly un-necessary – wandering around that Frisby/Trew + the Three Prescotteers went through as they were trying to find them) considered.

                  Reply

    • reply to :
      Brendan described Marsh’s location as “above me up on the hill”.

      Correct. He was all over the top of that ridge above Donut we witnessed and photographed.

      Reply

      • Thank you, Joy.

        Quick question… do you know where the HELISPOT was?

        It’s that old cleared circle up there where Marsh was ‘hanging out’ most
        of the day that used to be the para-gliding club’s launching spot.

        Do you recall ever seeing Eric Marsh actually standing on this HELISPOT
        at any time that day?

        Reply

  67. Reply to Marti Reed post on June 18, 2015 at 4:17 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> In that search I had come across your questioning about whether
    >> or not it might have been possible that Eric simply mistook
    >> Cordes’ radio communique on tac 1 that it was time for crews
    >> to get to their “designated places,” and thought that was either
    >> an “order” of some kind or a good way to justify GM moving to
    >> the BSR to Jesse Steed.

    IIRC, what I was proposing was that even though they ( Marsh and Steed ) certainly knew the ‘black’ was a ‘safety zone’ for them… the exact phrase coming over the radio to the effect of “Everyone go out to their pre-designated safety zones” would have meant THEY were supposed to now try to get to the “Boulder Springs Ranch”.

    By all accounts and testimony… that Boulder Springs Ranch is what matched that location description of “pre-designated safety zone” for THEM that day.

    It was Gary Cordes himself who gave it that label ( for THEM ) that morning.

    And YES… Eric Marsh *could* have then been using that as a ‘negotiating point’ for a reluctant Jesse Steed. Marsh could have been saying…

    “Jesse… you heard Cordes… we are SUPPOSED to get down to that ranch.”

    Maybe that WAS one of the ‘arguments’ Marsh was using… but Steed wasn’t buying it… which is why ( according to published media reports ) Marsh ended up just ORDERING Steed to bring those men down.

    Until someone tells us different… It’s ( still ) possible.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And I found myself thinking, hmmmmmmmm, maybe? Maybe there
    >> really wasn’t any “plan” communicated to Eric/GM to come down
    >> and help put in that dozer plan?

    Of course that is (also) possible.

    If we had the real story… we wouldn’t need to be trying to explain this complicated scenario and its multiple possibilities.

    If nothing else… I am still hoping Brendan McDonough can at least take these myriad possibilities off the table.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And I went on that hunt just after I did a re-mulling over Musser’s
    >> 3:40-ish resource check regarding Granite Mountain, concluding
    >> that I, at this time, all things considered, have actually no idea
    >> whatsoever what that conversation actually included.

    That’s always been another “elephant in the room”.

    We can HEAR Musser “calling out” to Marsh in the Panebaker Air Study video. But that’s all we get. Just the PROOF that Musser WAS about to have a ‘conversation’ with DIVSA Marsh.

    But as for what Marsh and Musser actually talked about and what was actually said… the full story remains to be told.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And all this stuff is happening so piled up at the same time that it’s
    >> hard to line it all out.

    Yes. It is. A LOT of things happened in a VERY tight timeframe and it doesn’t help that none of these guys ever seemed to have a frickin’ CLUE what time it was.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> I still think that for Cordes and Musser to start moving their pieces
    >> around that chess board (in the condition it was in) they most likely
    >> had to have started at least mapping it out on some kind of a napkin
    >> during that conversation that happened at 3:50 to 4 PM.

    Yes… but don’t forget that it was Eric Marsh himself who had to inform OPS1 Abel that the fireline had crossed the retardant line, and then also later was the one telling Cordes it had ‘crossed the dozer line’.

    So Marsh really was the “eyes and ears” for OPS1 Abel, OPS2 Musser and SPGS1 Cordes.

    They were RELYING on him to keep them advised given that he was “on the top of the world” and could see everything they could NOT.

    That’s why I was suggesting that if Marsh himself then said he thought he saw a “possibility” of an emergency dozer line that *might* help the fire go ‘around’ that subdivision rather than ‘through’ it…

    …I think BOTH active Field OPS ( Abel and Musser ) and the “in the bullseye” SPGS ( Cordes ) would have still been ‘trusting’ him and would have been all ears.

    All that being said, though… I actually don’t think Marsh even turned his binoculars to the southwest and towards Glen Ilah until AFTER he saw the “Big Dog” just walk up to that massive retardant line… and step right over it like it was a piece of string on the carpet.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> If the plan was being incubated first in Eric’s mind, even before
    >> he asked Frisby to come up to the ridge in order to SEE it, and then
    >> communicated to either Cordes or Musser before (or while) they met
    >> and, most likely (or not?) after the meeting with Frisby was toast, at
    >> SOME point there had to have been a contact point between either
    >> Eric and either/both Cordes and Musser.

    Yes. There wouldn’t have been much to the “the plan” if the DOZER hadn’t been able to be involved. So my guess would be that if the plan really did ‘originate’ with DIVSA ( with his “top of the world” view of things ) and it was then communicated almost simultaneously to OPS2 Musser and SPGS1 Cordes… then it would have been only SECONDS after that ‘communicating’ that the following happened…

    From Cory Ball’s (signed) Unit Log…

    “Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.”

    It is still IMPERATIVE to know EXACTLY WHEN this event that Cory Ball has always been testifying to actually took place.

    That ‘assignment’ would have gone from Cordes to Ball over a TAC channel.

    Someone OTHER than Blue Ridge Hotshots sitting behind Federal GAG orders must have heard that same transmission.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And I just looked again at Frisby’s notes and there are no big
    >> black magic marker lines around his description of Eric calling
    >> him and asking him to come up. So, either he didn’t know what Eric
    >> wanted to meet about, or he just didn’t write that. He actually never
    >> mentions ANY of the pieces of this plan.

    Correct. Even with that… I have still always just had this gut feeling that before he consented to eat dust for 2 miles at a critical time when he was really needed elsewhere ( as in, right where he already was ), that Frisby would have at least ASKED for some indication of what the hell required a face-to-face versus just talking on the working radios.

    Perhaps the bias on my part here is that given the same situation… I sure as hell would have asked that question.

    If the caller responded with “I can’t tell you. It’s a secret and I don’t want to talk about it over the radio”… I suppose I would have ‘eaten dust’ and gone up there. But not before at least ASKING what the hell was so important that the radios in our hands weren’t good enough.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> So…….I definitely think it’s POSSIBLE. I don’t see any thing
    >> IMPOSSIBLE about it. I also don’t think it’s IMPROBABLE. It makes
    >> a lot of sense. Whether it’s PROBABLE or now, I don’t know if we
    >> have anything to pin that with.

    Copy that. Until we (perhaps) hear more about this from Brendan McDonough, or anyone else who heard the same radio traffic he did, there is no “definitive” piece of evidence which leans towards the plan ( if it existed ) originating from Marsh versus Cordes/Musser ( or even Abel )…

    …but there’s nothing that rules it OUT either.

    The ONLY thing I would say that makes it more likely it originated with DIVSA Marsh than anyone else is that simple fact that Marsh was “on the top of the world” and could SEE everything ( including any/all possibilities for emergency dozer lines ) better than anyone else.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> And maybe nobody who could have had the time to figure out how
    >> to fit this thing into the glowing narrative, so they just put it in that
    >> envelope, and as things passed (especially the ADOSH investigation)
    >> sealed it. I seriously don’t think anybody wanted this to be available to
    >> that investigation, all things considered.
    >>
    >> Does that make sense?

    If by ‘this’ you mean any evidence they DID hear/have that there WAS this ’emergency plan’ in place and that WAS the reason they left the safe black…

    …I would have to say no. It honestly still doesn’t make sense to me why they would NOT have included that information in their own report.

    For the same “we want to protect ourselves” reasons you are quoting as their motiviation… I actually think they would have WANTED to publish any evidence they had that there WAS this plan.

    It went awry. People died. There’s no way to hide that.

    But I honestly can hear the lawyers advising them that at least admitting there WAS this plan to try and protect Glen Ilah would be better than trying to cover something like that up.

    I would think the lawyers would have been telling Arizona Forestry…

    “You might be able to shut the Blue Ridge guys up… but too many people knew about this plan including just a County Public Works employee running a dozer and everyone listening to TAC channel radio traffic. You might be able to turn the knobs on the “brotherhood” thing and keep most of these guys/gals quiet for a certain amount of time… but you’ll never keep this one ‘in the envelope’ forever. Trust us on this.”

    It might sound like I’m arguing that the same thing I think MIGHT have happened couldn’t have happened because if it did happen I can’t see why they wouldn’t have said it happened”.

    And I guess maybe that IS what I’m saying in a ‘cockamamie’ sort of way…

    But I’m probably also giving Arizona Forestry more credit than they deserve, methinks.

    Bottom line: I DO believe that if there WAS a last-minute emergency dozer line plan… it very well COULD have come FROM DIVSA Eric Marsh himself… and did NOT originate with Abel, Musser or Cordes. They might have only gotten ‘onboard’ with it the minute the guy “on the top of the world” was telling THEM he thought it could be done and he was willing to try it.

    Reply

    • I hate to go here but my feelings—-
      In the words of an old FMO that trained me.

      Marsh was fresh out of Collage a new and untested Division Supervisor wanting to make a name for him self.

      —–Bob never trust a new collage kid to know what the hell he is doing always trust your training and instincts —–And keep the dam kid out of trouble if he’ll listen—-

      A wise man who started in wild land fire in the late 30’s My Mentor for the first 6 years of my induction into Wild Land Fire..

      Reply

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 18, 2015 at 6:10 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        I>> a new and untested Division Supervisor
        >> wanting to make a name for him self.

        I’m not sure we have ever had an actual (accurate) COUNT of exactly how many times Marsh had ever been assigned as a DIVS on a fire… but it wasn’t many.

        So yes… for all intents and purposes… being a full DIVS on a big fire was still sort of ‘new’ for Eric Marsh.

        So you might be right.

        In addition to just being a ‘Type A’ personality who lived by mottos from his old college like “Esse Quam Videri”… the situation in Yarnell might have seemed like an ‘opportunity’ to Eric Marsh.

        I actually think kind of ‘Human Factor’ aspect to what happened has been discussed at length and even to the point where the motivation might have been the opposite of what suggest.

        It wasn’t so much to “make a name for himself”… but given the way this particular DIVSA assignment for Marsh had gone so far that day ( not well at all )… he might have seen an opportunity to “turn the day around” and make what was going to be a dismal performance as DIVSA into something better.

        A chance to “salvage the day”, so to speak, and turn defeat into triumph.

        NO ONE would have ever blamed Marsh or Steed or anyone on that crew for deciding to just sit in that safe black and watch that already-out-of-control firestorm just pass by for about 20-30 minutes so they could have SAFELY returned to town they way they came up.

        But apparently… that wasn’t something Eric Marsh HIMSELF wanted to do.

        As soon as he saw the fire burn through that retardant line and knew it was turning around and coming back the other way with a vengance… he might have turned his binoculars to the southwest, towards Glen Ilah, and thought he saw an ‘opportunity’ to do one last-ditch-effort down there to try and protect that subdivision…

        …and then it was “Katie bar the door”.

        He convinced HIMSELF that he had maybe 1 to 2 hours to pull something off ( since that’s the time range the Air Attack guy Rory Collins told him ) and suddenly a crew that had been “tools up” and just resting is now marching south on a two-track trail back towards town.

        Ultimately… the ARGUMENT was about that last final bad decision.

        The shortcut through that box canyon full of explosive fuel.

        But until that first MAYDAY hit the radio… or the other now-reported radio call from Steed to Marsh informing him “We’re not gonna make it”… Marsh still genuinely thought there was time for some more “Esse Quam Videri” that day.

        Reply

        • As a Fire Fighter with 5 or more years The safest Safety Zone is the Black
          with well over 400 Acers why would you move out of that to a unknown location thru a brush field with out a dam good reason. Every body move to there safety zones. My brain would have said I am in the best safety zone on this fire no reason to move.

          In the briefing Marsh was told about BSR he was also told

          OF COURSE YOU ALSO HAVE THE BLACK —-

          There was no automatic requirement to move to BSR not ever

          The Crew moved for another reason we have come up with severial .

          The one we are on seems to have some solid possibilities so find the missing link. that’s our challenge.

          Reply

        • “But until that first MAYDAY hit the radio… or the other now-reported radio call from Steed to Marsh informing him “We’re not gonna make it”… Marsh still genuinely thought there was time for some more “Esse Quam Videri” that day.”

          And Cordes and Musser were supporting that, every step of the way, apparently.

          Reply

          • And, to be perfectly honest, all things considered, including what Gary Olson wrote in his MOAB,

            I would guess that if Willis had known about it he would have, also. Given his mixed track record on this fire. And his narrative after it.

            There’s something systemic about this whole thing, in my opinion.

            Reply

        • You said:

          “NO ONE would have ever blamed Marsh or Steed or anyone on that crew for deciding to just sit in that safe black and watch that already-out-of-control firestorm just pass by for about 20-30 minutes so they could have SAFELY returned to town they way they came up.”
          ——————————–

          Gary Olson says
          JUNE 17, 2015 AT 2:33 PM

          We will probably never know who had more of an affinity for the limelight…Willis or Marsh…but I think they were both very attracted to it, therefore, I find it difficult to conceive that these two did not have a clear understanding by at least 4 p.m. that day that this fire was heading into Yarnell in a big way, and the event wasn’t going to be covered merely by just the local AZ stations in Phx, Flag or Tucson.

          And in fact, the video coverage was going to be all over ABC, NBC, CBS and cable as well by that time since Yarnell was national news. There were going to be glimpses of FF’s, possibly some closeups. And GM would not be among them. In a place that was their back yard. Nobody was going to be filming any guys way up on a mountain, miles away. And the clock was ticking.”

          Conundrum. In the Human Factors Arena.

          Reply

    • A question for Bob and Gary,

      If a plan were developed by Marsh, Ops or whomever to pull the crew off the safe black and down to the interface would you as Crew Supt’s make every attempt to have your buggies at you exit point, especially if you knew you were getting a new assignment?

      I can buy into all this talk that GMIHC was needed to help with the dozer line (firing) or just be in their “hip pocket” since they were totally ineffective with their original assignment, but the Shot crews I have been around always have a way of having their “buggies” at their exit point. I have heard no mention of the “buggies” being moved to BSR?

      Reply

      • That’s a good question I have always thought that McDonough was waiting for a call to meet the crew with the Buggies, when the crew got to a place where they could be picked up. It is also possible that the Crew was planning to hike the Mile or so to Glen Isla from BSR and go to work.
        McDonough contacted his Supervisors and said the vehicles were at the RHR and he would be ready to move them when they called. Or something similar to that.

        We really do not have any Idea how they planed to move from the BSR only that that is where they were headed. From there with out any other information we are stuck. without info from again McDonough.

        Reply

        • Good question, but no, I wouldn’t have. I never had any control of making arrangements for my own transportation once I checked into a fire.

          The crew carrier was parked in a lot of all of the other non essential fire vehicles and there is stayed until we left. If fire overhead wanted us moved in a vehicle, they arranged for that to happen through transportation as part of a plan and it might have been our crew carrier, but still, they would make that happen. But frankly, I was never on a fire that was being managed by Chaos as much as the Yarnell Hill Fire was.

          I have repeatedly used the phrase that many real fires are managed by chaos for the first 36 to 48 hours, but I think there is a distinction between that and what was going on, on the Yarnell Hill Fire. I was always used to “managed chaos” if that makes any sense and the YHF was “utter chaos” or “uncontrolled chaos” or “crazy chaos.”

          I really do think, at least I hope, the YHF was a true aberration, even for wildland/urban interface fire or WFF are in for some tough times in the future.

          And yes, I am on sabbatical, but I am still trying to stay up to speed and trying to respond to things directed to me so maybe I can still be of some help.

          Reply

          • I never fought a fire or have even heard about a fire that was as chaotic as the Yarnell Hill Fire. Maybe that is because almost an entire hotshot didn’t die on them, but I still haven’t heard of any.

            It seems like almost everybody on that fire was a free lancing cowboy who was acting as their own Incident Commander. People showing up who had not been ordered. People being ordered but by circumventing the dispatch process put in place to know who what where and when resources go to or on a fire. People walking off the fire line because they didn’t like their assignment or agree with their assignment or get along with others. DivA deciding unilaterally he was going to take a crew from Diva and move it to Divz without authorization or even telling anyone. Air Attack overriding a ground commander and dropping not once but twice on their burnouts. Abel and Musser switching jobs, taking on new jobs or reinventing their jobs on the fly. Having no plan, or last minute plans, or no briefings or poor briefings. Deciding structures and entire areas were not defensible and going ahead and committing resources to defending them anyway at the last minute putting firefighters at risk. Firefighters deciding when and where to park their own vehicles, and then relying on others to randomly decide to move them. Putting some dumb kid out as a look out and telling him, well good luck when he tells them he is in danger of being burned over. Selecting safe zones that were ridiculously inadequate for the fire conditions, Reassigning hotshots to engage in risky behavior at the last minute, find a place for a last ditch defense of the town with a cat line. Firefighters on the line randomly deciding to start evacuation themselves, other firefighters and residents. Last second evacuations orders that were no relayed in any kind of coherent manner with a logical plan. Arguments, in fighting, bickering, no written plan, no maps, no coordination, no cohesiveness…nothing good and everything bad. Ignoring critical weather forecasts. And most of all, a Division Boss lying on the radio to conceal his true intentions and independent free lance cowboy plan, whatever the hell it really was.

            Unbelievable…shocking…unprecedented based on my experience and knowledge of wildland firefighting tactics and strategies.

            I could go on and on if I put some more thought into it. So no, I have never been on a large fire where I drove my own carrier out to somewhere park it wherever I wanted and then decide I should move it or not, or send somebody to get it to pick us up or not.

            Frankly, the way that fire was management from start to finish was unbelievable, shocking, unprecedented, a text book example of the Ultimate Cluster Fuck., and the more I learn, the more unbelievable it becomes. I can’t believe that dozens of additional firefighters didn’t die on that fire along with hundreds of residents.

            We really got lucky on the Yarnell HIll Fire…it could have been really bad relatively speaking…we only lost 19 wildland firefighters, compared to what could have happened, we were really fortunate and we should thank our lucky stars. Now…I know that is hard to understand if you were one of the 19 who died or one of those who loved them, but it could have been so much worse.

            Reply

            • OK…now I am going beyond answering a question that was posed to me, maybe I am a serial blogger and I just never knew it before now.

              Here is a scary thought.

              Keep in mind that my experience with the Arizona State Forestry Division was BEFORE they faced historical budget shortfalls and draconian cuts to state agencies. And all western states from my experience fight wildfire pretty much the same way Arizona does, except New Mexico is even worse and California has always fought fire like the federal government does, like they can print their own money on demand.

              Except now, apparently even the federal government doesn’t do that anymore because getting something bought by the fire is now like pulling teeth and they guard their S numbers with procurement officers lives.

              And even though I do feel like I am not qualified to write a book about the Yarnell Hll Fire, I just thought of a good title for it, “The Perfect Fire Storm.” Not exactly original, but very true.

              Now…here is the scary thought for wildland firefighters and those who live in wildland/urbane interface zones. What if your future continues to meet at the crossroads of the perfect fire storm due to global warming and draconian budget cuts to firefighting agencies due to historic budget shortfalls?

              What then? More Yarnell Hll Fires? Is this the new normal?

              Reply

            • and worse of all…a Division Supervisor who was doing everything he could to break all of rules all of the time instead of just some of the rules some of the time as most hyper aggressive wildland firefighters on steroids do on a regular basis.

              Reply

            • Here is a scary thought.

              Keep in mind that my experience with the Arizona State Forestry Division was BEFORE they faced historical budget shortfalls and draconian cuts to state agencies. And all western states from my experience fight wildfire pretty much the same way Arizona does, except New Mexico is even worse and California has always fought fire like the federal government does, like they can print their own money on demand.

              Except now, apparently even the federal government doesn’t do that anymore because getting something bought by the fire is now like pulling teeth and they guard their S numbers with procurement officers lives.

              And even though I do feel like I am not qualified to write a book about the Yarnell Hll Fire, I just thought of a good title for it, “The Perfect Fire Storm.” Not exactly original, but very true.

              Now…here is the scary thought for wildland firefighters and those who live in wildland/urbane interface zones. What if your future continues to meet at the crossroads of the perfect fire storm due to global warming and draconian budget cuts to firefighting agencies due to historic budget shortfalls?

              What then? More Yarnell Hll Fires? Is this the new normal?

              Reply

            • Reply to Gary Olson post on June 19, 2015 at 2:11 pm

              >> Gary Olson said…
              >>
              >> …it could have been so much worse.

              TOTALLY agree.

              Reply

            • Thanks for writing this, Gary.

              It kinda describes my side of the see/saw I perceived us being on.

              And it also helps me think I’m not crazy.

              After I got finished reading the 2-part narrative timeline that WTKTT did such a great job writing up, and digesting it…………and writing my little “replies” to it, I just felt kinda sorta, in both positive and negative ways…..

              ,,,,,,,,,,finished.

              And, to be honest, as I went about my day, even more mystified than before.

              It’s like we’ve FINALLY gotten a WHOLE lot closer to discerning the answer to the still burning question of “WHY?” and, as I contemplate that possible answer, I’m just like …………………..

              Really? You’ve GOT to be kidding me.

              And then as it got too hot in my un-air-conditioned house, I collapsed back into my chair in front of my imac and started google searching, just wandering around all those wildland fire-fighting sites, and “leadership” sites, and “lessons learned” sites etc etc etc, looking for something that I just didn’t even know what it was I was looking for……….

              And I slowly started realizing it was just for something remotely relevant to what we see going on here, especially after the past seven days of non-stop, brain-numbing trying, again, to put some pieces of the puzzle together and actually succeeding.

              And seeing that it may be even worse than we had thought, and we had already thought it was pretty bad.

              And that that’s why I can’t find anything on all those sites that relates to this. All that training and leadership and safety stuff seems to assume SOME ground base of coherence that never ever ever even BEGAN to exist on this fire, until it was too late and finally a professional-enough IMT took it over.

              And I kept keeping in mind what you said about the first 72 hours being chaos but…………still……….THIS MUCH CHAOS???

              When it got too chaotic on the Thompson Ridge Fire (and it did) they pulled everybody off and waited it out, burned thousands of acres be damned.

              When it got too chaotic on the Jarosa Fire, they pulled out the initial attack crew immediamente!

              When the Slide Fire kicked up and started burning up those oh so beloved by everybody side canyons, they let it burn, even though we were all crying our tears all over the Slide Fire Facebook page.

              When the inversions made it impossible to fly air support they didn’t try to do anything that required air support to succeed. While they built their big box that required another 15K acres to burn to contain.

              Which everybody bitched and complained about because of all the smoke, which WAS awful!

              Because SAFETY.

              But what do you do with a fire that is being so totally mismanaged from the get go that it really IS an awesome miracle that ONLY 19 fire-fighters DIED.

              What do they teach about that on those leadership safety lessons learned high reliability organizations just culture etc etc etc websites?

              Especially when the precious SAIR for this fire doesn’t even have enough FACTS in it for anybody to actually learn what this fire is practically (even though it’s been/being muzzled) SCREAMING to be listened to and learned.

              Two years later.

              So, yes, I really appreciate someone like you and Bob finally seeing what WTKTT and I have been seeing and trying to document for so long.

              And yes, this does NOT in any way justify Eric and Jesse’s decisions.

              But when you’ve got an Operations Supervisor supporting and facilitating a dangerous and hair brained plan like this, when the Incident Commander has absolutely NO FRIGGIN CLUE what’s going on with his fire and the people on it, and NOBODY’s taking the weather warnings seriously (to the extent that Chuck Maxwell is biting his nails in Albuquerque, thinking he REALLY ought to intervene but that would violate SWCC protocols to the max), …………………………..

              So that’s why I’m even more mystified NOW than I was before we discovered this totally reckless plan and all it implied.

              And I still don’t even know what I am looking for.

              But reading this coming from you really helped.

              Reply

            • Gary,

              I absolutely agree with your statements. The fire was mismanaged from the beginning and to this day is continuing to be. Does anyone know if that team is still available ? Or was it disbanded after this tragic mismanaged cluster?

              Reply

  68. The latest PUBLIC Twitter post from Brendan McDonough, on his PUBLIC Twitter page…

    https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/posts/483729775127219

    He seems to be trying to say something ( to someone? )… but it’s riddle speak.

    ——————————————————————-
    Brendan Mcdonough – June 16 at 10:13am ·

    There are men who are sheep hiding in a lions hide, they seem to fool many of there intentions. The lions hide will wear and tear, there true colors will show. You can not recreate the heart and spirit of a lion within a hide, within a image. A true heart of a lion will shine brighter than its hide and be louder than its roar. To all my lions out there, stay authentic, be true, and holdfast.
    ——————————————————————-

    Reply

    • Another PUBLIC photo recently published on Brendan McDonough’s PUBLIC Twitter page.

      Apparently, on or about June 7, Brendan was involved in what looks to be a pretty bad car accident.

      https://www.facebook.com/brendan.j.mcdonough/photos/pb.463942307105966.-2207520000.1434666506./480356785464518/?type=1&theater

      Two PUBLIC comments appear under this PUBLIC photograph…

      John Alexander – June 8 at 6:43am
      Glad you and everyone involved were ok! That was a mess for a while.

      Mark McDonough – June 7 at 4:51pm
      wow !! glad your ok

      Reply

      • The “Mark McDonough” who left that PUBLIC comment on Brendan’s PUBLIC Facebook auto-accident photo appears to be an Uncle who has been mentioned in the media several times and has posted Yarnell related things of his own on his own social media page(s)…

        The Prescott Daily Courier
        Article Title: Surviving Hot Shot member ID’d
        Publisehd: Wed Jul 3, 2013 9:27 AM
        http://archive.azcentral.com/mobile/articles/20130702surviving-hot-shot-member-idd.html

        From the article…
        ————————————————–
        Prescott Fire Department officials confirmed Tuesday the identity of the sole surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots firefighting team.

        Brendan McDonough, 21, of Prescott was separated from the 19 members of his elite firefighting crew when flames overran their position in the Yarnell Hill Fire.

        His father, Scott McDonough, who is in Boston, posted a picture of his son in firefighting gear and said: “Good work in Arizona, son. Proud and glad you’re safe!”

        Scott McDonough also referred to the 19 firefighters who were killed: “ Prescott, Arizona. Those are his brothers, 19 that didn’t make it. RIP, God bless them and their families. Amen!”

        An uncle, Mark McDonough, of Brighton, Mass., shared a memorial picture for the 19 fallen firefighters that said, “In memory of Prescott firefighters. Prayers are with you and your entire family.” The picture shows a candle and a firefighter’s badge outlined with the words: “RIP Prescott, AZ –19.”
        ————————————————–

        Reply

    • Donut would make a good mine boss–Do what I say not what I do. True to what is Mr. Donut? A young man misguided for sure-fortunate to have survived indeed–but not considerate of the loved ones and friends of the deceased 19–he withholds what he knows from those who want to know what really happened to get those men off that mountain into a death trap.

      Reply

      • Obviously he is trying to say that HE is a “true LION”…

        …but I wonder who he thinks the sheep are?

        Anyone who tells the truth?

        Reply

        • Actually… isn’t he really screwing up this whole metaphor?

          As the story goes… isn’t it the LIONS who tried to dress up as SHEEP just to get past the herders and the guard dogs and into the middle of the sheep herd?

          Reply

          • In other words… in the Lion / Sheep story I remember… it was the LIONS ( and NOT the sheep ) who elected to use deception to get what THEY wanted.

            Reply

  69. **
    ** DID DIVSA ( ERIC MARSH ) HIMSELF COME UP WITH THIS
    ** APPARENT ‘EMERGENCY DOZER LINE’ PLAN FOR GLEN ILAH?

    First… before I get into this… a little housekeeping and some ‘catch up’.

    It’s been ‘crazy town’ here on my end of the fence for the last few days and it’s been all I could do to just keep up with the input stream and the new evidence that Joy and Sonny have been providing.

    If I have neglected to say “Thank you” enough to Joy and Sonny for all the communications and the material… that is why.

    I AM looking at all the material and I WILL have more to say about all of it.

    But I have been on airplanes again for days now and doing the “wall crawl” at airport layovers trying to find any frickin’ publicly available wall socket to use in airport terminals just to keep up.

    But I’m back at a Desktop PC with all relevant files and a reliable power supply.

    Second… an overdue note to Gary Olson…

    Because of my own ‘crazy’ on this end… I’ve just been having to pick and chose what to spend any time on or comment on.

    Regarding your recent MOAP…

    That was an amazing ( and hard-wrought ) summary of what were obviously a lot of communications from people that trust you and respect you.

    If there ends up no further litigation or witness testimony that ever comes to light on this… you’ve pushed the “Human factors” considerations on this farther down the field than anyone.

    There are about a million “Lessons to Learn” just from reading that one single MOAP post of yours. I hope everyone that IS in a position to learn something from all that DOES SO… and as quickly as possible.

    So BRAVO for ALL of that. I mean it.

    And I can assure you… if you ever publish a book… I will buy a copy.

    **
    ** “TOP OF THE WORLD”, ( MA! )

    So as we revisit this possible ’emergency dozer line’ plan and continue to apply ( as Marti so aptly described it ) “more steam to the envelope to see what might be inside”… here is something else to consider might be iniside this still-not-fully-opened ( but definitely REAL ) ‘envelope’.

    DIVSA Eric Marsh had the absolute BEST view of everything that was happening with the fire that day just short of the guys up in the airplanes, and OPS1 Todd Abel, OPS2 Paul Musser, and SPGS1 Gary Cordes knew that.

    Eric Marsh was at such a high elevation with such a good view of EVERYTHING that, for all intents and purposes, he might as well HAVE been ‘in an airplane’… and it’s inconceivable that DIVSA Marsh would not also have had his own binoculars as well.

    OPS1 Todd Abel himself told ADOSH that Marsh could (quote) “see the WORLD up there”.

    From PDF page 40 of OPS1 Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview, 8/22/13…

    Q1 = Dave Larsen, WFA / ADOSH investigator ( Rest in Peace )
    A = OPS1 Todd Abel
    ————————————————————————————-
    1741 A: Um, we talked about the weather, we talked about the monsoons that were
    1742 building to the north and the south of us.
    1743
    1744 Q1: North and south.
    1745
    1746 A: Yes. The one buil- and – and I said do you have eyes on both of them? And
    1747 he’s – you know – he’s up on this ridge, he can see the world up there.
    1748
    1749 Q1: Yeah. Right.
    1750
    1751 A: He says yep I got eyes on both, one to the south and one to the north.
    ————————————————————————————-

    So it is conceivable that at SOME crucial point here, Marsh had his DIVSA hat still firmly on and from HIS vantage point… he thought there MUST be some possibility of an ’emergency dozer line’ down there on the northwest outskirts of that subdivision that MIGHT still make the difference between the fire charging INTO the subdivision… or at least being coerced to go AROUND it.

    For all we know… this ‘idea’ that Marsh might now have had for some ’emergency dozer line’ to try and protect the Glen Ilah subdivision may have been the actual REASON he asked Frisby to come up for that second face-to-face meeting… and this ’emergency dozer line’ WAS going to be the topic of conversation had Frisby been able to get up there.

    He wanted Frisby to SEE what HE was seeing… and what the possibilities were to try and protect that subdivision given the observed fire progression.

    SIDENOTE: I have said this before but it is still inconceivable to me that Brian Frisby would have consented to such a hasty face-to-face meeting request, at such a busy moment for HIM, unless he had SOME idea what it was about or WHY he was being asked to ‘eat dust’ for 2 miles when he was really needed elsewhere. Nowhere in Frisby’s Unit Log does he give any indication that he did have even a “clue” what Marsh wanted to talk about that was so friggin’ important ( or secretive? ) that they couldn’t just talk about on the radio…. but I still believe he almost MUST have had SOME idea what that “eat dust” trip was FOR before consenting to it. Maybe if Brian Frisby is ever free to speak we could know more about this point.

    Anyway…

    The moment he heard that Frisby wasn’t going to make that face-to-face, Marsh could have decided he needed to get down there himself ASAP… and that really is the moment he took off to the south in order to get down into that BSR area as fast as he could.

    We really DO hear him sort of “huffing and puffing” as he was then having those GM intra-crew radio conversations with Jesse Steed as captured by Christopher MacKenzie.

    There really is no doubt that even while Marsh was still probing Steed for his “comfort level” about something ( like leaving the black )… Marsh was rocking along towards some destination ( like the BSR ).

    I’m not going to speculate as to what exact TIME Marsh have actually SHARED this plan for ’emergency dozer line’ with anyone else such as OPS1 Todd Abel, OPS2 Paul Musser or SPGS1 Gary Cordes ( or any combination of these individuals ).

    But it’s possible that he DID… and then ( hence ) the corresponding directives coming from Gary Cordes down in Yarnell for Cory Ball ( and “one other” ) to jump on this new emergency assignment to “scout dozer line to protect Glen Ilah”.

    So that is why Gary Cordes was (quote) “not surprised” where the GM bodies were found ( as he told even the SAIT investigators )… or why Gary Cordes would also tell investigators he “assumed they were headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch and that they had plenty of time to get there”.

    Somehow, at some moment, Gary Cordes himself was either ‘consulted’, or just simply ‘made aware’ that this WAS DIVSA’s ‘plan’ and that he was already coming down to execute on it.

    Remember… Cordes was ‘playing’ the role of DIVSUP down there in Yarnell but technically ( as the org chart goes ) he was still just SPGS and Marsh had “more stripes” on that fire than he did.

    If a DIVSUP has gotten a ‘plan’ into his head and wants to execute on it, it wasn’t even SPGS Cordes’ place to disagree with him.

    But regardless… if this plan was ‘originating’ with DIVSA… Marsh still needed Gary Cordes to be ‘onboard’ because Marsh was obviously going to need the DOZER to pull this off, and Cordes had ‘control’ of the dozer ( and DOZB Cory Ball ) down there.

    We KNOW this “scout emergency dozer line” plan never actually came together ‘down there’. We seem to see Cory Ball fully attempting to carry out this assignment from Cordes to “scout it out”… but then FAILING to accomplish that.

    We KNOW that the fire continued to ‘exceed all expectations’ from 4:00 PM on and whatever anyone thought was possible or that there might have been time for in the 4:00 PM timeframe was a moot point even just 20 minutes later…

    …but that still doesn’t mean ( circa 4:00 PM ) that this ’emergency dozer line’ plan to try and get the fire to skirt AROUND Glen Ilah wasn’t what people WERE actively pursuing from 4:00 PM onward… with every expectation that there MIGHT be time to pull it off.

    Okay… so all that being said… here is the obvious head-scratcher.

    If it really is TRUE that there was this ’emergency plan’… and it really is TRUE that it actually originated with DIVSA Eric Marsh himself based on the possibilities HE could see better than anyone…

    …then why are we still even GUESSING that might have been the case?

    In other words… if this really is what was going down between about 3:50 PM and the time of the deployment… then why would anyone be AFRAID to admit it?

    WHY would this now be the “Contents of the sealed envelope” that still might need to be ‘steamed open’?

    It seems like it really would just be a legitimate, valid ( and even an acceptable ) explanation for what was really going down on that south end of the fire at that time.

    I’m just not seeing WHY Arizona Forestry ( or any of its contractors and employees ) would feel that this needs to the “military secret” that needed to be suppressed and ‘protected’ at all costs.

    There would still be every discussion in the world to be had regarding the faulty TACTICAL aspects of the plan and the poor decision making involved ( which did, indeed, lead to a horrible tragedy )… but as for the actual legitimacy of the plan itself given what was known ( and even being observed ) at the time the plan was put into motion… I’m not seeing the NEED for ‘the plan’ itself to remain a “secret” at all costs.

    So that’s it for the moment.

    I just wanted to throw this possibility ‘into the mix’ as long as we are revisiting the whole thing.

    FWIW… it also doesn’t matter to me ( personally ) that we are just days away from the second anniversary. I think this whole aspect of the Yarnell Hill Fire is going to remain one of the primary mysteries to unravel no matter how long it takes.

    Even if we were coming up on the 10th anniversary… if all the facts about this were still not known I’d still be searching for more testimony, more evidence, and more ‘answers’ about even just this one aspect of this historic tragedy.

    Because “Inquiring minds want to know”.

    However ill-conceived and/or poorly executed… WAS there a ‘coordinated plan’ in place and being acted upon in the hour leading up to the tragedy?

    Or were Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed truly just “freelancing” at that point and managed to get themselves and all the men they were being paid to protect KILLED?

    Reply

    • A couple of thoughts Marsh was a Division Sup. They can suggest but don’t make the decision to change tactics. OPS and IC are responsible for that what you are suggesting is way out of the normal procedures’
      Marsh would have had to be talking with OPS and COORDINATING with Cordes.

      This would be a total change in Plans and out side his assigned Division.
      In the normal Fire world it would have had to have been authorized and implemented by OPS at a minimum.

      I do not believe this was a very well coordinated plan. It was a way to last minuet Hale Mary.

      But it is feasible the Crew was moving to implement it. It was just to late to work.

      Reply

      • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 18, 2015 at 4:03 pm

        >> Bob Powers said…
        >>
        >> Marsh would have had to be talking with OPS
        >> and COORDINATING with Cordes.

        If he was committed to the idea and executing on the plan… then that’s probably exactly what he DID do. We’re still just not sure WHEN he did that ‘talking’ and/or “coordinating”.

        Cordes’ testimony that he was not surprised in any way that they deployed just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch, and his instructions to Esquibel to send that engine to BSR and ‘check on them’ prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that CORDES was aware that’s where they were going.

        Hence… Cordes would have also known of “the plan”

        OPS2 Paul Musser is the one who had also ALREADY called Marsh directly wondering if he was still “committed to the ridge”… so if ( following that availability check ) that “plan” started to come together… you can be SURE that OPS2 Musser was aware of it… and ONBOARD with it.

        Besides… there is also the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.

        Whoever that was that Marsh felt compelled to “report back to” with regards to GM’s status and that they were “Coming from the heel of the fire”.

        …you can bet a fin to sawbuck that wasn’t just some Engine Captain.

        It is still a VERY short list of people whom Marsh would have even felt obligated to make that kind of ‘status report’ to… and OPS1 Todd Abel and/or OPS2 Paul Musser are still right at the very top of that SHORT list.

        Reply

    • Hey, WTKTT! You’ve been doing an amazing job, all things considered!

      And that’s a really interesting idea.

      I have to admit, it’s kind of funny because I just spent a chunk of time searching for “designated safety zone” in order to figure out where that whole thing fit into this whole thing.

      And I I discovered the whole discussion we had back in February that I had completely forgotten about (is this mind-numbing or what????), in which I had fitted it together that Gary Cordes said that he had heard that communique from Eric Marsh to Air Attack while Cordes and Musser were talking on the side of 89. i.e. most likely just before 4 PM.

      And in that search I had come across your questioning about whether or not it might have been possible that Eric simply mistook Cordes’ radio communique on tac 1 that it was time for crews to get to their “designated places,” and thought that was either an “order” of some kind or a good way to justify GM moving to the BSR to Jesse Steed.

      And I found myself thinking, hmmmmmmmm, maybe? Maybe there really wasn’t any “plan” communicated to Eric/GM to come down and help put in that dozer plan?

      And I went on that hunt just after I did a re-mulling over Musser’s 3:40-ish resource check regarding Granite Mountain, concluding that I, at this time, all things considered, have actually no idea whatsoever what that conversation actually included.

      I don’t know what to believe anymore except what I can see with my eyes or hear with my ears.

      And all this stuff is happening so piled up at the same time that it’s hard to line it all out.

      I still think that for Cordes and Musser to start moving their pieces around that chess board (in the condition it was in) they most likely had to have started at least mapping it out on some kind of a napkin during that conversation that happened at 3:50 to 4 PM.

      If the plan was being incubated first in Eric’s mind, even before he asked Frisby to come up to the ridge in order to SEE it, and then communicated to either Cordes or Musser before (or while) they met and, most likely (or not?) after the meeting with Frisby was toast, at SOME point there had to have been a contact point between either Eric and either/both Cordes and Musser.

      And I just looked again at Frisby’s notes and there are no big black magic marker lines around his description of Eric calling him and asking him to come up. So, either he didn’t know what Eric wanted to meet about, or he just didn’t write that. He actually never mentions ANY of the pieces of this plan (as far as I have been able to, with great difficulty, read).

      Did you ever type out Frisby’s notes? I though about doing it several times, but always never got that to the top of my list of priorities, knowing how long it might take.

      So…….I definitely think it’s POSSIBLE. I don’t see any thing IMPOSSIBLE about it. I also don’t think it’s IMPROBABLE. It makes a lot of sense. Whether it’s PROBABLE or now, I don’t know if we have anything to pin that with.

      Regarding this:

      “In other words… if this really is what was going down between about 3:50 PM and the time of the deployment… then why would anyone be AFRAID to admit it?

      WHY would this now be the “Contents of the sealed envelope” that still might need to be ‘steamed open’?

      It seems like it really would just be a legitimate, valid ( and even an acceptable ) explanation for what was really going down on that south end of the fire at that time.”

      I hear yah.

      The SAIR was absolutely tossed together in way too short of a period of time to do it justice. With a obvious bias to protect members of the Arizona Department of Forestry, the Incident Management Team, and any other relative higher ups.

      Which is why I said that as soon as Mike Dudley walked out of the room in which their interview with the four Blue Ridge Hotshots had taken place, he knew a gag order for them and any other Federal employees was in order, given how SCATHING their opinion of the management of the fire was.

      And that, at that time, was the only reference to this plan.

      Cordes and Musser were mum about it. So, apparently they were too excited about letting this cat out of the bag. As usual, the upper-ups were perfectly content with the narrative the SAIT was crafting that basically said three things:

      1. The fire was just so awesome and so unpredictable that it just blew everybody out of their zones.

      2. Granite Mountain made this inexplicable fatal decision on their own part, with no help or communication or pressure or anything with anybody in the outside world. A decision that would be forever unavailable to that outside world because it totally went with them into their deaths.

      3. Nobody actually did anything wrong, made any serious mistakes, or did anything less than innocent on this fire.

      OK I need to add a fourth.

      4. A HUGE problem on this fire was with radios and lack of air support.

      Oh, yes and a thing we really really need, in order to prevent this from happening again, is GPS units, in spite of the fact that Granite Mountain had at least four GPS units, the contents of which are in another sealed envelope in that locked filing cabinet along with any cellphone records that were probably gathered.

      Apparently the responsible overhead didn’t feel all that proud about this whole thing. So they didn’t mention it. And maybe they even felt something worse than not proud about it. Which might be something of a clue, all things considered.

      Including one of those responsible overhead people who, apparently didn’t use his absolute SURENESS about where GM deployed to help the SAR crew actually FIND them in any TIMELY way.

      And including another one of those responsible overhead who flies in fairly high places in the scheme of things and maybe wasn’t too keen on being connected with this OOPS.

      And maybe nobody who could have had the time to figure out how to fit this thing into the glowing narrative, so they just put it in that envelope, and as things passed (especially the ADOSH investigation) sealed it. I seriously don’t think anybody wanted this to be available to that investigation, all things considered.

      Does that make sense?

      Reply

      • Ack, serious typo.

        “Cordes and Musser were mum about it. So, apparently they were too excited about letting this cat out of the bag.”

        Should read:

        “Cordes and Musser were mum about it. So, apparently they weren’t too excited about letting this cat out of the bag. “

        Reply

        • Copy. I caught that on first reading.

          There is no doubt that during their ADOSH intervieww, Gary Cordes and Paul Musser were playing their own version(s) of “keeping cats bags”.

          The name of that game is…

          “If you don’t ask me the right question I don’t have to give you the right answer”.

          Reply

      • Of course, if anybody HAD had time to discover and dig into and fit this noble sacrifice narrative into their narrative, I am totally SURE they would have.

        Especially now that we FINALLY (two years later) know that that dozer operator didn’t get burned over.

        Another OOPS!

        Reply

      • I wrote:

        “If the plan was being incubated first in Eric’s mind, even before he asked Frisby to come up to the ridge in order to SEE it, and then communicated to either Cordes or Musser before (or while) they met and, most likely (or not?) after the meeting with Frisby was toast, at SOME point there had to have been a contact point between either Eric and either/both Cordes and Musser.”

        Possibly in that conversation between Eric and Musser that I have decided, given what has been written/said about it (i.e. I have NO CLUE what was actually in it), that happened right before Musser met Cordes on 89?

        I mean we really have NOTHING that actually substantiates the current narrative about that conversation.

        3:40 was when Frisby picked up Brendan and the meeting was toast.

        Musser was driving then. Just before Musser met Cordes on 89 at about 3:50, he contacted Eric to get a resource bead.

        He asked a version of “What’s your status?”

        Eric said, “Right now we’re committed to the ridge but I’m seeing this possibility/necessity of putting in a line down there. Right now we’re up here but Blue Ridge is down there. But they’re about to get overly busy, according to them. So maybe we should come down?”

        Given that we have NO ACTUAL CLUE what that conversation actually included, is this impossible/improbable?

        This was on a cellphone, right?

        And then Musser stopped on 89 and had a conversation with Cordes. In which they had to have, at least, given the timing, started mapping this thing out on “a napkin.”

        OK. This HAS to be nothing but a “conspiracy theory.”

        But it’s possible. And not improbable. And maybe it’s wrong.

        But it makes at least as much sense as the idea that they just wandered down through that bowl, all of their own accord, albeit under the influence of what Gary Olson has so eloquently described, with nothing much more in mind than getting to the Boulder Springs Ranch, without a clue what they would do after that (even as Gary Cordes was assigning Tyson Esquibel to send at least one engine to go there to make sure they got out of there safely).

        Reply

      • And I want to add that your idea that Eric Marsh had the best eyes on the fire of almost everybody, especially Cordes and Musser, who, basically had NO idea what was going on out there, was the thing that got me thinking most seriously about this.

        I don’t believe either Musser or Cordes had the SA to have conjured up this “plan” all by themselves.At least this quickly. And “surely.”

        Just wanted to add that.

        Reply

        • And, of course, as Bob Powers would remind us, none of this was actually “sure.” Much less “sure” enough to actually think it would do enough to be worth the assignment of any resources to it, all things considered.

          As he said, and I’m improvising, it was a piece of shit last minute hail mary garbage piece of “planning.”

          Which may also be why Cordes and Musser didn’t say a word about it and it was kept out of the “glowing” narrative of the SAIR and hidden from the prying eyes of the ADOSH.

          Reply

          • Why not say any thing—
            The plan was under Musser’s Direction as OPS he would be held directly responsible for the Fatalities. Since the plan was never really implemented or written down it was hidden in all the other crap

            No one is at fault—- as the SAIR would not say or identify any ones decision making as the reason for the Fatalities..

            Is not Musser being sued by the Families? I think WTKTT said something about him or some one else. It puts the State in a bad place if one of their Overhead at that level had any thing to do with GM’s move. Weather it was his plan or Marsh.

            And we are back to ADOSH and their findings.

            This little plan is so well hidden in the mess of shit that it would not be easily recognizable or any kind of the movement by GM being associated with it. unless Musser or Cordes said something about it.
            Cordes is to far down the chain to be sued for GM Fatalities. He was also not in charge of them.

            Reply

            • I totally agree with your take on this, here.

              Which is why I DON’T agree with WTKTT’s take on it.

              You said:

              “Is not Musser being sued by the Families?”

              I have to admit I don’t know the answer to this question, and I haven’t downloaded any of the lawsuits to be able to answer this.

              Reply

            • Reply to Bob Powers post June 18, 2015 at 6:00 pm

              >> Bob Powers said…
              >>
              >> Is not Musser being sued by the Families?

              Planning OPS2 Paul Musser was never a ‘named defendant’ in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.

              Only Field OPS1 Todd Abel was named.

              I believe that the lawyers filing the suits never fully understood that ‘Planning OPS’ Paul Musser really HAD jumped into the fire and was the SECOND fully functioning ‘Field OPS’ in the hours leading up to the tragedy.

              You’re never supposed to have more than ONE full-blown ‘Field OPS’ on a given fire… so naming Todd Abel was ( to the lawyers ) supposedly ‘covering the bases’ there at the OPS level.

              Here is a direct link to the original ‘wrongful death’ filing…

              http://archive.azcentral.com/ic/pdf/0627yarnell-fire-maricopa-lawsuit.pdf

              ————————————————
              Defendants;

              STATE OF ARIZONA, a governmental entity;
              ARIZONA STATE FORESTRY DIVISION, a subdivision of the State of Arizona;
              COUNTY OF YAVAPAI, a governmental entity;
              CENTRAL YAVAPAI FIRE DISTRICT, a governmental fire district;
              TODD ABEL and JANE DOE ABEL, individuals;
              ROY HALL and JANE DOE HALL, individuals;
              RUSS SHUMATE and JANE DOE SHUMATE, individuals;
              ABC ENTITIES I-X;
              JOHN and JANE DOES I-X.
              ————————————————–

              I’ve said this before… but just to remind… it is NORMAL for the WIVES of ‘individuals’ to also be named just because of how super simple-easy it is for anyone to transfer all their assets to their spouses.

              And you don’t even need to print the spouse’s correct first name… only the LAST name needs to match.

              Just JANE or JOHN DOE XXXXXX will do.

              >> Bob Powers also said…
              >>
              >> Cordes is to far down the chain to be sued for GM Fatalities.

              That is not the case.

              I’ve also said this before but to remind… Arizona is NOT one of the states in the Union that has passed its own ‘sovereign immunity’ laws for State employees.

              With a sufficient amount of proof of negligence… anyone can sue ANY Arizona State employee.

              >> He was also not in charge of them.

              Doesn’t matter. If the evidence points to a sufficient amount of provable negligence on the part of this Arizona Forestry contract employee which contributed to deaths in the workplace… he could be sued as a defendant in a ‘wrongful death’ proceeding.

              Doesn’t matter where he sits in the “pecking order” or in the “food chain”.

              Reply

        • Reply to Marti Reed post on June 18, 2015 at 5:10 pm

          >> Marti said…
          >>
          >> And I want to add that your idea that Eric Marsh had the best
          >> eyes on the fire of almost everybody, especially Cordes and
          >> Musser, who, basically had NO idea what was going on out
          >> there, was the thing that got me thinking most seriously
          >> about this.
          >>
          >> I don’t believe either Musser or Cordes had the SA to have
          >> conjured up this “plan” all by themselves. At least this quickly.
          >> And “surely.”
          >>
          >> Just wanted to add that.

          That really is the ‘essence’ of why I was just adding this option to the list of possibilities.

          The ONLY thing to ‘recommend’ this theory over any other as to where that ‘scout dozer line’ plan originated ( if not from Cordes himself ) is the “on top of the world” scenario and the fact that of all these men… Eric Marsh was the one who could have SEEN the possibilities.

          Cordes had scouted Glen Ilah and the BSR area the night before.

          It was DARK.

          Cordes even overestimated the actual area of the BSR by 10 times and said it was 20 to 30 acres, or some such ridiculous size.

          So that’s how WELL Cordes really knew the area in his head.
          Overestimating ranch sizes by 10 times.

          Paul Musser was absolutely CLUELESS.

          The ONLY time Musser had set foot in Yarnell was for that brief time that morning during the 7:00 AM briefing at the YFD fire station.

          Paul Musser had no ‘mental map’ of Yarnell itself… much less Glen Ilah or anything out towards the BSR.

          And Musser didn’t ever really have any concept of the DISTANCES involved down there… and how far away people were from each other.

          In some ways… that alone could explain the exasperation we hear in Eric Marsh’s voice when he said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

          That was his obvious response to someone who seemed to be wanting to know why Granite Mountain wasn’t where they thought they should be yet, because that person really had no mental map of all the distances involved.

          So yes… if anyone was in the right POSITION to see if there was anything resembling a chance at putting in an emergency dozer line that *might* make the fire skirt AROUND Glen Ilah rather than go THROUGH it…

          …that person would have been “top o’ the world” DIVSA Eric Marsh.

          Reply

          • You wrote:

            “So yes… if anyone was in the right POSITION to see if there was anything resembling a chance at putting in an emergency dozer line that *might* make the fire skirt AROUND Glen Ilah rather than go THROUGH it…

            …that person would have been “top o’ the world” DIVSA Eric Marsh.”

            OK, I”ll toss in a little pebble into these waters, just to see if If I’m wrong. And you can roll your eyes into the back of your head in exasperation. Because I KNOW you have a vastly more complete set of timelines on all of this than I do, and I have to even keep searching, via Google, this website to find things that I have never even read, or read (or even wrote) that I have, by now, lost track of.

            So I’m OK with being embarrassed by asking this.

            Where do you think Eric was actually located during this?

            Assuming that our current general consensus is that, at some time, Eric was moving down somewhere near the Boulder Springs Ranch, where he may have “ordered” Jesse to bring the crew down (the “pull” theory), at a bit before 4:27 when he said “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

            Obviously he was somewhere “up above” where the GM Hotshots were (I guess) when he asked Frisby to come up and meet with him. Along about 3:30, I guess. When, we’re currently thinking he may have been contemplating the possibility/necessity of putting in this line.

            So, yes, at that time he was the penultimate “eyes on the fire.”

            But where was he when, possibily Musser was pinging him at about 3:40-ish, or when Cordes and Musser were “sketching the plan on a napkin” at 3:50-ish to 4:00? Is it possible that at that time he was down below enough that he no longer had that awesome view of what the fire was doing?

            I’m just asking for a friend.

            And, during the time Cordes and Musser were actually IMPLEMENTING that plan, is there any evidence they were actually in communication with him as he was descending lower and lower, while (I would assume) losing more and more of that awesome bird’s eye view?

            (Other than, possibly, something related to that 4:27 communication).

            Or were Cordes and Musser just assuming that whatever Eric might have communicated somewhere between 3:40 and 4 was still continuing to be reliable? Even while/after the fire was, ala Cordes, exceeding his/their expectations?

            As I write this, I’m realizing this may be a pointless theoretical set of questions. Given what was actually happening during that time.

            Reply

    • Thank you WTKTT, that means a lot coming from you. And if I ever find a publisher for my book and if you email me your real name and mailing address, I will be more than happy to send you an autographed copy!

      And yes, the MOAP summary was hard to write, thank you for recognizing that fact. It is hard to explain and as usual I am conflicted between my desire to give Marsh a man hug and forgive him because I identity with him and being angry with him for his arrogant disregard for safety at the same time.

      But in any case, the truth is important for us to ever be able to truly understand what went wrong and why.

      Reply

    • It is reasonable doubt that Marsh just freelanced. When Willis said protecting structures is what they do he gave us a hint as to what he and those in his rank and above expected–That Someone or Some urgently wanted them down there is in my jury box beyond a reasonable doubt. –it just remains until names are tacked on–guilty of……

      Reply

      • I don’t actually think Willis had any knowledge of this “Plan” or any influence on it.

        Except for the influence he obviously had, especially given what Gary Olson has written, on the inside of Eric Marsh’s mind.

        Which may have, indeed, been a factor in Eric possibly thinking about what he might have “seen” as being a possibility, wanted to share with Frisby, wasn’t able to share with Frisby (who might actually been able to talk him out of it), and then, when Musser called him, told Musser he saw as a possible necessity in order to make a hail mary last defense of Yarnell.

        Without even doing “structure protection.” Just dozer and handline.

        Unfortunately, unbeknownst to Eric at that time, there was no time to even begin to do that. Even tho Air Attack, at about 3:50, told him he thought Yarnell would be hit in one to two hours. Which could have seriously influenced Eric’s thinking about this “plan.” As in, “I think we could have time to do this.”

        Reply

        • I agree with everything you just said, Marti…

          …but here’s an interesting perspective.

          Let’s say that either Paul Musser or Gary Cordes ( or both at the same time ) got this IDEA that there MIGHT be time to push some dozer line out there near Glen Ilah to at least try to coerce the fireline to go AROUND the subdivision and not THROUGH it.

          Wouldn’t you think they would have at least CONSULTED with the guy who had better eyes on the fire than they did… from an absolute perfect position to say whether that ‘idea’ was even possible?

          As I’ve said before… for all intents and purposes Eric Marsh was almost an “Air Attack” that day… with that incredible elevated view he had of EVERYTHING that was happening ‘out there’.

          It’s basically impossible to believe that either Musser or Cordes would NOT have asked DIVSA Marsh if he “saw any possibilities” there near Glen Ilah once they realized that might be the only card left to play.

          And YES… regardless of anything Paul Musser had reported talking about with Marsh at 3:42 PM… they very well COULD have been having this “do you see any possibilities for defense down there by that subdivision” conversation with Marsh as he was travelling down Highway 89.

          I am not calling Paul Musser a liar… but we know for sure and certain that others never reported ALL of their conversations and/or things they knew they heard to investigators.

          Many were obviously “picking and choosing” what they were willing to share with the investigators… and Paul Musser could still just be one of those.

          Does the name Brendan McDonough ring a bell with anyone?

          Reply

  70. A Little Conversation Downstream
    ———————————————–

    Gary Olson says
    JUNE 17, 2015 AT 10:19 PM
    I
    didn’t even suggest it was a clue, I do believe however, it is an important aspect of the human factors concept. I think it great you and others are working on the technical details of the fire, and I think it is great I am bringing attention to the human factors side of what happened. And that is because I strongly believe ALL of the CAUSAL factors will be found in the human factors side of this story. But I hope you keep looking at the fire.
    ———————————————–

    Marti Reed says
    JUNE 18, 2015 AT 4:12 AM

    Gary and Bob~

    I completely agree with you about the decisions of Marsh and Steed, and their violation of every rule and common-sense principle in the “book” being the cause of their deaths.

    And I agree that the relationship between Marsh and Willis (and how that came to be – which I REALLY appreciate your bringing to light) and their relationship to the political machinery of Prescott (and the Prescott Fire Department), and how the local media would be playing that out being a HUGE set of Human Factors in this.

    Think of it as if we’re on a see-saw.

    I’m counter-balancing what you’re saying, not discounting it.

    (And yes, it’s interesting how Blue Ridge has avoided the limelight/media. When I was trying to find out more about the crew, including which faces belonged to whom, it was enlightening to me to find out how INVISIBLE they stayed on the Internet. I almost couldn’t find a THING about them, while all the other Hotshot Crews have been making YouTube videos about themselves for YEARS. But not Blue Ridge!)

    You don’t think what WTKTT and I have spent most of the past five days 24/7 trying to ferret out and describe is Human Factors? Are you kidding me?

    WTKTT and I are unsealing a carefully sealed and locked away, in some filing cabinet, envelope.

    There’s a REASON that envelope has been sealed and locked away in that filing cabinet. If there hadn’t been a REASON, it wouldn’t have been LOCKED AWAY.

    You don’t think THAT is Human Factors, just technical details of the fire?

    Are you kidding me?

    You are describing the swimmer. We’re describing the state of the water. I think the two go together.

    However, you have been able to ferret out more details about the swimmer (given your connections and perseverance, which is AWESOME) than we have been able to ferret out details about the water. After almost two friggin whole years.

    You don’t think that when I discovered Paul Musser’s involvement in this that that’s a Human Factor?

    Are you kidding me?

    One of the burning questions in everybody minds has, ALL ALONG been, “Did somebody ORDER/PRESSURE them into this?”

    And now we have, by relentlessly putting dots together, figured out that, indeed there was a PLAN that resulted in Eric Marsh answering a question addressed to him by SOMEBODY (quite possibly Paul Musser) with an answer (in something of an exasperated tone, I might add) of “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

    You think this is just technical and not Human Factors? Are you kidding me?

    I’ve been involved in Human Factors all my life! You don’t think I know them when I see them?

    And we have, by also relentlessly finding dots and trying to figure out how to put them together, discovered that Gary Cordes assigned his, somewhat feckless regarding some other things, Task Force Leader (Trainee) to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to pick up the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

    When, apparently, NOBODY else on that fire knew where they were headed, or why, or how, or when.

    Even when they were all trying to figure out how to FIND THEM after they deployed.

    And that’s not Human Factors?????

    Are you kidding me?

    I guess I’m operating out of a broader definition of Human Factors than you are, even though your Human Factors focus has been total invaluable in this, and I thank you for it.

    And I’m guessing Ted Putnam has a broader definition of Human Factors also, all things considered.

    Especially given his refusal to sign off on the South Canyon Report, given his REASONS for that refusal.

    Namaste.

    Reply

    • There are a lot of Human Factors that ebb and flow from the Top down not always bad.

      GM had severial hidden, quiet, personal, funding and supervisor Factors that played in this
      Tragedy. More than normal.
      The Overhead on this Fire had some human factors in play for what ever reason that also contributed to the overall execution of the Suppression objective.

      Did those Human factors contribute to Marsh’s decision to move the Crew?

      Did Marsh move the Crew for his own reasons which Gary and others over the past 2 years have stated?

      Both are still valid questions that we have a few threads of proof to conclude there may be some fact here.

      The Plan being discussed is more complex if we are to believe it was hatched and a attempt to execute it was a last minute ditch effort.

      We would first have to go back to 1600.
      GM was the beginning of the plan they had to move to Glen Isla to tie in with the Tractor.
      So their move started first. I would insert with out a Safety plan to accomplish the move.
      LCES the 10 ETC. Based on what we are assuming was direction by Cordes.
      He did not move BR to that location because he was going to use them to Fire the line constructed by the Tractor with them. and use GM to Fire the New Line to protect Glen Isla.
      He needed 2 experienced crews to do that.

      Having said all that the plan was just way to late to accomplish and the winds changed every thing.

      Now we have a crew hung out to dry in a brush field. Cordes is frantic to get the dozer push in but its to late for that the fire is out preforming his plan.
      Is Cordes the one that told GM you need to hurry up? Seems possible based on what was happening every where else. His plan was falling apart and GM was trying to out run an inferno moving right at them.

      Cordes was trying to send a Engine to check on the Crew at BSR—–Evidence

      Cordes stated he knew where GM was—-Evidence

      Marsh was in contact with OPS by Cell phone most of the assignment—-Evidence

      Cordes was also in contact with Willis in there roll’s on the Fire—-Evidence

      BR un known to them were part of the plan involved in the other half of the Burn out, What did Ball Know about the plan after meeting with Mouser? There is Evidence here that need dug up.

      My review my have some Gray areas in it or may not stand critical assessment but I’ll thow it out there to digest and see where it takes us.

      Reply

      • Bob~

        I pretty much agree with everything you are saying here.

        One thing I don’t agree with, and was kind of waiting for WTKTT to chime in, because he has WAY better detailed overall timelines than I do. My timelines are just short little things on TextEdit pages about specific things. The rest is all in my head. I don’t have an overall timeline.

        You said, regarding Cordes:

        “He did not move BR to that location because he was going to use them to Fire the line constructed by the Tractor with them. and use GM to Fire the New Line to protect Glen Isla.
        He needed 2 experienced crews to do that.”

        By 4:00 the plan to burn out the Dozer line was toast. I think BR was, at that time, in his mind, so busy moving trucks and crews and whatever around, for him to have had much of any idea what he might want to do with them.

        And Granite Mountain was, obviously, NOT busy.

        There are only TWO verifiable anchor points (and one of them’s just a hint) for his plan connecting to Granite Mountain. Unless I’m missing something, which is kind of why I was holding out on answering you.

        The strongest and most obvious being Cordes telling Esquibel to send an engine or two to Boulder Springs Ranch to get GM safely out.

        The other (which is still just a hint) being that exasperated status callout from Eric, “They’re coming from the heel of the fire.”

        Which had to have been a response to somebody, and which was heard (by probably a lot of people, including, most likely, Paul Musser) when Musser was driving into the parking lot (and then parking there) of the Yarnell Fire Department, while Ball was photographing the fire while riding shotgun in the truck.

        But, also, in my head, this leads right back to that whole thing about Musser’s call to them asking about their status about 3:40 PM, right before he pulled up to talk with Cordes on 89.

        There’s been a great deal of contention about that. At this point, I am not sure exactly what he asked and what GM answered, all things considered.

        This IS earlier than his conversation with Cordes, where I think they began conjuring up what became “the plan.”

        At this point I don’t know what he was thinking. I’m not sure he wasn’t thinking he might want them to come down and be in his “back pocket,” after all. And then the conversation with Cordes possibly re-inforced that.

        And this is all speculation. Just trying to figure out which dots might possibly be connected and which dots for sure probably aren’t.

        And one of the dots that IS connected, most likely, is the dot that represents that sealed and hidden away, in some filing cabinet, envelope.

        If there wasn’t something somebody really doesn’t want us to know about in all of this, we most likely would know a lot more about it than we do, two years later.

        That’s my thinking anyway.

        Reply

        • My thoughts on BR came from the call to see if they could still Burn out the line
          from Musser. I believe .that is why I was saying they were still a part of the earlier plan and there fore committed to a seperiate piece of line. The GM crew moved around 4:05 so their may have been an earlier conversation that sent Marsh scouting to the BSR which would fit this plan that was being hatched.

          Mainly trying to dot the I’s and cross the T’s and see where it leads as you said my time lines may be off as well.

          If the plan was discussed with Marsh way before the crew ever moved which may be why he took the hike to BSR.

          Reply

          • Bob, the call to Frisby about whether there was still time to burn out the line was from Cordes and not Musser.

            We have two reference to it, Frisby’s notes and the YIN. I’ve posted that somewhere down below.

            I just perused Cordes ADOSH interview and didn’t see anything there about it.

            And I’m not sure exactly when it happened.

            I think I remember WTKTT said it came just about right after Frisby picked up Brendan and, at that point, knew, it was time to get everybody out and that burnout wasn’t gonna happen.

            Reply

            • So it probably happened around 3:40 ish, and before he met with Musser. So he knew that plan was scratched before he met with Musser.

              Reply

    • OK…you caught me peeking again on sabbatical, but going cold turkey is hard and I will get better over time.

      I guess I should have specified that I am focusing on human factors specific to Marsh and Steed. The aftermath of this fire is so complex, with so many people, so many unknowns and so many moving parts, that if I don’t focus on a narrow angle, I will never get a coherent chapter done for my book.

      Reply

  71. Reply to Marti Reed post on June 16, 2015 at 4:49 pm

    NOTE: Marti… this is that ‘scenario’ you posted yesterday but this breakdown is putting some actual TIMES onto it… which was a revealing exercise.

    With regards to the new photo 097.jpg that Joy has provided and which shows Cory Ball there at the intesection of Fountainhill and Lakewood… I’m now sort of conviced that it was taken more like 4:05 PM than 4:15 PM.

    You will see why below.

    That time of 4:05 ( versus 4:15 ) just seems to ‘fit better’ in the timeline.

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> So here’s another possible scenario.
    >>
    >> Ball and the dozer came down to the Sesame staging area,

    3:50 PM – Ball shoots his IMG_1884 there at the staging area.

    >> while Ball got the assignment from Cordes/Musser to, after he
    >> parked the BR truck/trailer at the RHR, jump into Musser’s truck,
    >> go over to the YFD,

    4:28 PM – Ball shoots his IMG_1886 as he is arriving at YFD in Musser’s truck.

    >> get on their ATV, and go back up into Glen Ilah.

    4:43 PM – Ball shoots his IMG_1888 photo. He has re-entered Glen Ilah on the ATV borrowed from the Yarnell Fire station and he is now at the intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita. Photo shows it’s too dangerous for him to go any farther west.

    >> While the message to Morin was “Just Stay Put.”

    Until there is some evidence that Dozer came out of there on its LOBOY trailer and staged somewhere else… we still have to assume this is what Morin was told and Ball was trying to ‘return’ to him out there.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Which Ball did, then heading down Manzanite until he came to
    >> that spot where he got out of his truck to get a view of the fire
    >> (and possibly pass that on to Cordes/Musser, since they didn’t
    >> have their own “eyes on the fire”), at which point he was
    >> photographed (around 4:15 PM) looking up at that smoke column.
    >> Which was basically going up.

    Yes. There really is NO DOUBT this new photo 097.jpg that Joy has provided was taken in this timeframe… as Cory Ball was EXITING Glen Ilah with the Blue Ridge Chase truck with Polaris trailer attached.

    But the more I look at this new 097.jpg photo I believe it was taken more around 4:05 PM than 4:15 PM.

    That just fits the timeframe better given what happened just BEFORE and just AFTER it. A time of 4:15 is sort of ‘rushing things’ that would have to happen AFTER this photo such as delivering the Chase to RHR and then getting all the way over to the YFD by 4:28 PM when Ball would shoot that photo of himself arriving there in Musser’s truck.

    In other words… if the new 097.jpg really was shot at 4:15… that only gave Ball 13 short minutes to accomplish all that.

    Pushing 097.jpg back to 4:05 PM adds another 10 minutes and seems more reasonable.

    He ( Ball ) would then have had 23 minutes to finish delivering the GM Chase to RHR, conversing with Musser, hopping into his truck, and then arrving at YFD and shooting his next photo at exactly 4:28 PM.

    >> Marti also wrote…
    >>
    >> Meanwhile Morin waited, and then, getting a little nervous, all things
    >> considered, loaded the dozer onto the lo-boy, just in case.

    Perhaps. If he ‘hightailed it’ as you suggest below… this WOULD have been when he ‘loaded up’.

    >> Meanwhile, at the same time Cory Ball parked the truck, Musser
    >> picked him up and delivered him to the Yarnell Fire Department
    >> at 4:27 PM (the same time the Yarnell-Gamble video was captured),
    >> where he mounted the ATV and headed back up into Glen Ilah.

    Exactly… which is why I moved 097.jpg back about 10 minutes to 4:05 PM. I don’t think Cory Ball could have done the above ‘paragraph’ in just 13 minutes. 23 minutes seems more reasonable for all you just described… and I believe that IS what happened once Ball got to the RHR.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Where everything was chaos. He made it up to the
    >> Manzanita/Lakewood intersection (at 4:47, according to his photo),

    Exactly.

    >> when possibly other vehicles may actually have been >> driving around in there,

    Which would match the other testimony relayed by Joy from the same witness who says Ball told them to “get the hell out” earlier while he was exiting Glen Ilah ( 4:05 PM ).

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> also, maybe even about by the same time Morin had said to
    >> himself, “F*** it, I’m getting outa here!!!” and had headed
    >> down, and they found each other (or maybe even not, because
    >> we don’t know that), and a bunch of people to whom Ball
    >> said “Get outta here, you’ve got ten minutes” (which was by then
    >> totally true) and then they both got back out of there and the dozer
    >> had to find some place to park somewhere in the traffic chaos
    >> somewhere around 89.

    I think this is the only part of your ‘scenario’ I’m going to take issue with.

    I can buy that at the same time Ball was re-entering Glen Ilah… Paul Morin had already said “F*** it” and was driving OUT with the dozer…

    …but I don’t buy that THIS is when Ball was telling the residents “you’ve got 10 minutes”.

    No way. Even Ball’s FIRST photo he took after re-entering Glen Ilah shows that it was already turning into a hell-hole.

    If Ball ever told anyone they had 10 minutes… I believe that could have only at the time the new photo 097.jpg was taken and we see him there talking to that resident at Lakewood and Fountainhill.

    THAT looked like a “You’ve got 10 minutes” scenario. The scene after he entered was more like… “Your 10 minutes was up 20 minutes ago”.

    >> Marti also wrote…
    >>
    >> And in the midst of all that chaos, nobody saw him (Morin)
    >> (maybe even Cory Ball) and as the list of MIAs was being
    >> quickly thrown together, his “dozer operator” got added
    >> to that list, because, well……….nobody knew and nobody
    >> had any radio contact with him.

    Hmm… hard to believe that HUGE Yellow LOBOY could have gotten past even Ball on Lakewood ( the only way out )… but I hear ya.

    I suppose its possible.

    There were, in fact, TWO ways in/out. Fountainhill ( north of the RHR ) and Lakewood ( directly across from the RHR ) If Ball/Morin had taken ‘opposite’ roads at the same exact moment to go in or out…. they COULD have accidentally ‘missed’ each other.

    >> Until someone realize Morin and his dozer were, actually, NOT MIA,
    >> and then Morin eventually got his NEXT assignment.
    >>
    >> This kinda sorta makes sense to me at this point.

    Well… it DOES make sense.

    And that’s why I wanted to reprint it with some TIMES showing.

    Everything was ‘doable’ within the known times given what photographic evidence and (now, thanks to Joy) eyewitness testimony.

    >> Marti also said…
    >>
    >> Only running it by Joy’s source can confirm or fix it.

    Yes.

    >> We still need more information.

    Yes… such as…

    1) When this Blue Ridge Hotshot was yelling “Get the hell out”… what VEHICLE was he using? Was it an aquamarine pickup truck with a trailer attached… or was he traveling on an ATV at that point?

    2) If someone really did see that big yellow LOBOY with a dozer on it coming OUT of Glen Ilah… WHEN was that… and did this person see where it WENT? Did it go out Fountainhill… or out Lakewood? Left or right ( north or south ) on Highway 89?

    Did it branch off onto Fountainhill Road and then bypass the Ranch House Restaurant ( and Lakewood entrance )… or did it actually exit via Lakewood?

    It’s actually TRUE that if the LOBOY went one way or the other ( Fountainhill versus Lakewood ) and Cory Ball was re-entering Glen Ilah using the ‘other’ entrance instead… then Ball could have easily ‘missed’ the LOBOY on that ‘other road not taken’.

    The rest of this post is just some R/D I was using to put the times into the ‘story’ above… but it does also have a few more ‘events’ in there such as the exact moment when Gary Cordes was telling either OPS1 Abel or OPS2 Musser that the dozer line they’d been working on all day was now LOST.

    Reply

    • ** THE SHORT STORY

      3:30 PM
      Ball shoots his IMG_1883 photo. Dozer still on Cutover Trail.
      Byron Kimball broadcasts his weather report.
      Outlfow winds expected to arrive. 40-50 mph. Fireline reversals.
      Marsh asks Frisby for second face-to-face.
      Frisby takes off west in Ranger for face-to-face.
      Brown takes off walking EAST on Cutover trail

      ** 12 minutes later…

      3:42 PM
      Brown does his ‘about face’ on the Cutover Trail.
      This is the exact moment when Frisby informed Brown that
      he had just put Brendan McDonough into the Polaris ranger and
      he was abandoning his face-to-face with Marsh and returning east.
      Frisby told Brown to get 3 BR Hothshots ready to help move
      GM vehicles out of the Sesame clearing, which is why Brown
      did his ‘about face’ and started heading back WEST on the
      Cutover trail ( on foot ).

      ** 8 minutes later…

      3:50 PM
      Ball shoots his IMG_1884 photo. He has ARRIVED at the staging
      area at the south end of the Sesame clearing where the dozer
      LOBOY trailer was staged along with the Blue Ridge Chase
      truck with the Polaris Ranger trailer attached.

      ** 15 minutes later…

      4:05 PM ( approx )
      Ball is exiting Glen Ilah with the BR Chase truck and trailer.
      He has now STOPPED on Lakewood drive a few hundred yards
      short of Highway 89 at the intersection of Fountainhill Road
      and Lakewood Drive. He appears to have stopped to ‘assess’
      the situation and look at the smoke plumes heading towards
      Glen Ilah from that clearing at that intersection. It is also now being
      reported by a resident that at this moment Ball is advising other residents
      at this same location ( in a panicked voice ) that they have
      10 minutes to “pack up and get the hell out”.

      ** 15 minutes later…

      4:20 PM
      SPGS1 Gary Cordes is heard telling EITHER OPS1 Todd Abel
      or OPS2 Paul Musser that Blue Ridge reports they have “lost that dozer line”
      This audio was captured ( with absolute time stamp ) in Panebaker
      Air Study video 20130630_161858_VLAT_split_2_EP.MOV
      +1:32 ( 1620.30 – 4:20.30 PM )
      (SPGS1 Gary Cordes): Copy… but the intel I am getting from, uh…
      Blue Ridge is that they have… uh… lost that dozer line up
      ( loud foreground voice obscures this part ) where we’d… uh…
      planned to do the (burnout??).

      ** 23 minutes later…

      4:28 PM
      Ball shoots his IMG_1886 just as he is about to arrive at the
      Yarnell Fire station riding shotgun in what appears to be
      OPS2 Paul Musser’s vehicle ( with a white hood ).

      NOTE: The 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video was being
      shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble over in the Shrine
      Road Youth Camp at right about this same moment. This is
      the video where Marsh is clearly reporting Granite Mountain’s
      STATUS back to someone who had asked him to do so and
      Marsh said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.

      ** 15 minutes later…

      4:43 PM
      Ball shoots his IMG_1888 photo. He has re-entered Glen Ilah
      on the ATV borrowed from the Yarnell Fire station and he is
      now at the intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita. The area
      out around the Sesame Clearing area appears to be engulfed
      in flames as seen by the ‘orange glow’ in the distance looking
      straight down Manzanita Drive.

      NOTE: 4:43 PM is the currently accepted time of the actual
      burnover out at the deployment site.

      ** THE LONG STORY

      Cory Ball’s camera was a network connected Apple iPhone 4S,
      so the time/date stamps on all his photos can be considered accurate.

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1883
      Shows Yavapai County Dozer ( with operator Paul Morin ) on Cutover Trail.
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 15:30:02 ( 3:30:02 PM )

      Next sequential photo.. 20 minutes later…

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1884
      Taken by Cory Ball at south end of Sesame Clearing area where the
      Yavapai County Dozer LOBOY was staged along with the Blue Ridge
      Chase Truck with the Polaris Ranger trailer attached.
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 15:50:35 ( 3:50:35 PM )

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1885 is MISSING. Always has been.

      38 minutes after IMG_1884…

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1886
      Taken by Ball riding shotgun in a truck with a white hood ( most
      likely OPS2 Paul Musser’s vehicle ) and about to pull into the parking
      lot of the Yarnell Fire Station.
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:28:16 ( 4:28:16 PM plus )

      17 seconds later…

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1887
      Taken by Ball from the same truck but now fully arrived in the
      parking lot of the Yarnell Fire Station.
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:28:33 ( 4:28:33 PM )

      15 minutes later…

      Cory Ball’s photo IMG_1888
      Ball has re-entered Glen Ilah and takes this photo near the
      intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita looking NORTHWEST
      out towards the area between Sesame Clearing and Cutover Trail.
      Date/Time Original: 2013:06:30 16:43:16 ( 4:43:16 )

      NOTE: 4:43 is, in fact, the accepted time of the actual burnover at
      the deployment site… but the orange glow in the distance in this
      Cory Ball photo is NOT located directly over the deployment site.
      This view is looking northwest down Manzanita Drive from the
      intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita, and the ‘orange glow’
      seen in the photo would have been out there in the foothills
      that were EAST of the Sesame clearing area and SOUTH of
      the Cutover Trail.

      ** TWO PHOTOS MISSING?… OR WERE THEY VIDEOS?

      There are 30 still photographs in Cory Ball’s folder in the SAIT.

      They have the sequential numbers IMG_1873 through IMG_1904

      There are TWO sequentially numbered photos MISSING.

      IMG_1885 – Taken sometime between the one he took at exactly
      3:50:35 PM out where both the Dozer and the BR Chase truck had
      been staged at the bottom of the Sesame clearing area and
      the one he took at exactly 4:28:16 PM showing him riding in what
      appears to be OPS2 Paul Musser’s truck and about to arrive
      at the Yarnell Hill Fire station.

      IMG_1903 – Taken sometime in the 58 minutes between 5:50 PM,
      when he was still in Glen Ilah, and 6:48 PM when he was now
      north of Yarnell on either Highway 89 or Hays Ranch Road and
      apparently headed to the ICP at the Model Creek School.

      Other than those two ‘missing’ photos.. all the others are in perfect
      numerical order according to their sequential filename stamps.

      NOTE: It could also be that Cory Ball actually took VIDEOS at
      these two moments… and the sequential filename numbers were
      assigned to these videos. However… there are NO VIDEOS
      in the Ball folder, only JPEG still photos.

      The file extension .MOV would have been added to these two videos.

      Reply

      • I sure would love to know the story on that MISSING Cory Ball photo ( or video ) with the filename IMG_1885.

        It might have shown any number of things.

        It could have been taken at ANY moment between the time Ball left the Sesame clearing area to deliver the BR Chase to the RHR and the moment he was in Paul Musser’s truck and arriving at the Yarnell Fire Station.

        AND Cory Ball’s iPhone 4S was putting absolute trusted timestamps on all of his photos/videos.

        It’s actually VERY ODD that there are ONLY those two sequential photos/videos missing from his collection.

        Almost like it was ON PURPOSE.

        Reply

        • Me, too. BOTH of the missing files. I guess it would kinda sorta depend on when Cory handed them off to the SAIT and via what.
          There’s pretty much five basic scenarios I can think of.

          1. Ball was looking at them later and said, “those are total fail photos” and deleted them from the phone. Which people do all the time, except me, because it wastes battery power.

          2. Ball was looking at them on a computer later and said “those are total fail photos” and deleted them from the computer. Which even I do all the time.

          3. Ball was getting ready to burn them to something to pass them off to the SAIT and said, “those are total fail photos” and deleted them or just didn’t hand them off. Which I don’t think probably happened, if he hadn’t already deleted them before-hand. But that could have happened. It just doesn’t feel right.

          4. Whoever was working with them later, preparing them for distribution via the FOIA said,”those are total fail photos” and left them out. Which I also don’t think probably happened, all things considered, if they hadn’t already been deleted.

          5. Whoever was working with them later, preparing them for distribution via the FOIA said, “Hmmmmmmmmmmm. That looks like something we may not want the public to be seeing.”

          So I guess between those scenarios, there are two that are most likely.

          They were fail photos that Cory Ball deleted, or they were photos that whoever was preparing them for public viewing didn’t want the public to be seeing.

          He took pretty good photos though. It was just those few during his first ride into Glen Ilah that were really shaky because of the low light. And he didn’t delete them.

          I think he was pretty intentional when he took photos. And knew how to do it well.

          Reply

    • “With regards to the new photo 097.jpg that Joy has provided and which shows Cory Ball there at the intesection of Fountainhill and Lakewood… I’m now sort of conviced that it was taken more like 4:05 PM than 4:15 PM.”

      Totally agree. As a matter of fact, as I did the math, I figured 4:15 was the absolute LATEST time that photo could have been taken, and I was pretty much thinking it most likely was taken earlier than that. But I didn’t know if you had a REASON to pick 4:15 that I wasn’t aware of.

      “Hmm… hard to believe that HUGE Yellow LOBOY could have gotten past even Ball on Lakewood ( the only way out )… but I hear ya.

      I suppose its possible.

      There were, in fact, TWO ways in/out. Fountainhill ( north of the RHR ) and Lakewood ( directly across from the RHR ) If Ball/Morin had taken ‘opposite’ roads at the same exact moment to go in or out…. they COULD have accidentally ‘missed’ each other.”

      And I agree with that also. It’s really hard to imagine this thing just disappearing the way it seems to have just disappeared.

      Just had a thought. Maybe it WOULD have made sense for Morin to drive out via Fountainhill. Maybe there was less traffic on it. I mean we’ve seen all those cars pouring out of Lakewood onto 89. And, apparently, most everybody going in was going in on Lakewood also.

      But, this is all speculation. Truly, without more specific details, along the lines of your questions (and thanks for doing that), we can spin our wheels on this puzzle-piece til the cows come home.

      Somehow Ball lost track of him, and nobody had the info to fix that before he/Brian/whomever notified DPS. I think they must have been pretty worried, and better to be safe than sorry.

      Reply

      • >> Marti said…
        >>
        >> Just had a thought. Maybe it WOULD have made sense for Morin
        >> to drive out via Fountainhill. Maybe there was less traffic on it. I
        >> mean we’ve seen all those cars pouring out of Lakewood onto 89.
        >> And, apparently, most everybody going in was going in on Lakewood also.

        Yes. The ‘traffic’ could have affected his ( Morin’s ) choice about whether to take Fountahill or Lakewood for that final leg out of Glen Ilah…

        …but here’s another VERY practical reason why he might have chose Fountainhill instead of Lakewood ( and, hence, ‘crossed paths’ with Ball coming back in on Lakewood and that’s how they actually ‘missed’ each other ).

        If Paul Morin was heading NORTH… perhaps all the way to the ICP where they had been requesting him to come, anyway, earlier in the afternoon… then as he came EAST on Lakewood taking the northerly shortcut to Highway 89 via Fountainhill would have made perfect sense.

        It simply would have been ‘more direct’ for him to do THAT ( if he KNEW he was going to go north )… and it actually would have been an EASIER ‘left turn’ onto Highway 89 for him and that rig than trying to make a similar left turn onto Highway 89 from Lakewood.

        Has to do with the ANGLE in which these roads actually meet Highway 89.

        Left off of Fountainhill would have been MUCH easier for him, in that rig.

        Reply

  72. Gary Olson wrote down below about how he thought concerns about the media coverage of Granite Mountain IHC sitting it out in their Safe Zone while Yarnell burned might have been a serious contributing factor to Granite Mountain IHC going down into that bowl full of exposives to “save” Yarnell.

    After posting a series of replies to that about my cynical disagreement with that, I finally ended up with this, which I really hope Gary (and everybody else) reads:
    ———————————————————
    Gary Olson says
    JUNE 17, 2015 AT 2:33 PM

    I think this could be one more reason why the GMIHC headed for Yarnell in addition to all of the other reasons that we know about, but I would like to know what you think if anyone cares to comment on the thought.

    ———————————————————

    Marti Reed says
    JUNE 17, 2015 AT 6:37 PM

    It’s about a Plan.

    That included a Dozer. And a Blue Ridge Hotshot that was the Dozer Boss.

    And a request to a relatively problematic Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to meet the Granite Mountain Hotshots there.

    A plan that was conjured up and, at least, initially implemented by a Structure Protection Group Supervisor and an Operations Supervisor.

    That resulted in:

    “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

    Reply

  73. I want to get this out there before my self imposed exile/sabbatical from this thread starts tonight at midnight.

    After thinking about it for several days, I think the biggest take-a-way from the Marsh substance abuse incident on the Clear Creek Fire is what it means to me about Marsh and not about Willis. I now view the contribution that Willis made to this tragedy to be a contributing factor and not a causal factor since regardless of what Willis said to Marsh or what he expected from him, Marsh had an obligations and a duty to protect his crew from all overhead and that included Willis.

    And those take-a-way’s are as follows;

    1. The use of an illegal substance (marijuana) and banned a substance (alcohol) on the fire line by Marsh and other Globe Hotshots he was supervising point to a blatant disregard for wildland firefighter safety by Marsh. It is highly unlikely that was the either first or the last time Marsh actively demonstrated such a shocking disregard for wildland firefighter safety.

    2. The use of an illegal substance (marijuana) and banned a substance (alcohol) on the fire line by Marsh and other Globe Hotshots he was supervising are a blatant example of how Marsh believed he was special and that somehow the rules did not apply to him. Marsh also acted out and demonstrated his obvious belief that the rules did not apply to him. It is highly unlikely that was the either first or the last time Marsh actively demonstrated such a shocking disregard for the rules that are in place to help protect wildland firefighters from their own acts and the actions of others.

    Reply

  74. Dear Elizabeth Nowicki:

    I think you know just how much I have always liked and respected you and others of your noble profession…attorneys-at-law. A few days ago, I missed taking my meds for 2 days in a row and I suffered a critical break down in good judgment and common sense. I want to sincerely apologize for my harsh and totally inaccurate words regarding you and other lawyers. I am very ashamed of myself. In fact, if I had a sword, I would fall on it, it’s probably a good thing I don’t own one.

    I am going to take this rebuke as a call to redouble my efforts to go on a sabbatical from this thread because I am obviously not worthy to post along beside people who put so much thought and hard work into their comments. Therefore, I also want to say how sorry I am for my inexcusable behavior to everyone who reads or post to this blog.

    Sincerely Yours, Gary L. Olson

    Reply

    • “because I am obviously not worthy to post along beside people who put so much thought and hard work into their comments.”

      LOL!!

      I totally don’t even remotely agree with that!!!!!

      (Even when we disagree).

      Hope you had WTKTT’s “tongue in cheek” emoji in mind when you posted that!

      Reply

      • Right on Marti–Gary is one of the prime players in solving this who done it and why. Gary’s credentials over ride any impatience toward those that are intentionally trying to create a disruption and diversion. Some we have talked to want nothing less than to have this site completely shut down and would go to almost any length to do that. I wonder who Ms. Norwicki works for considering the obvious delight she has in creating friction. We may never know that but she has emailed us enough that I am amazed at how she can change colors. Do lawyers become chameleons? Well our pet Iguana does change shades as well but not so drastically.

        Well let that Sabbatical be a short one–Gary’s input is refreshing and nothing like the freedom to call a spade a spade.

        Reply

  75. FYI – The following showed up a few hours ago.

    NASA is now involved in this previously announced all-out effort to come up with a new fire shelter.

    Just as with the other (previous) announcements like this… it is probably no coincidence that we see these kinds of announcements popping up right in the middle of when the Arizona Forestry lawyers are supposedly trying to “settle” with the Yarnell wrongful-death lawsuit plaintiffs.

    One of the stated DEMANDS of ALL of the wrongful-death plaintiffs is that this very effort be made to improve these damn fire shelters.. and not in the usual slow-crawl “Forestry Tech Time”… but on an ACCELERATED timetable.

    NASA’s heat shield tech could save firefighters’ lives
    9 hours ago – by Daniel Cooper
    http://www.engadget.com/2015/06/17/nasa-heat-shield-firefighters/

    From the article…
    —————————————————————————–
    NASA has teamed up with the Department of Agriculture’s Forest Service to see if the agency’s heat shield technology could be adapted to protect people during forest fires.

    The partnership began after NASA’s Mary Beth Wusk and Anthony Calomino learned of the death of 19 firefighters during 2013’s Yarnell Hill Fire. The pair had been working on a new thermal protection system for future spacecraft that was designed to deal with the sort of extreme temperatures that forest firefighters deal with on a regular basis.

    The prototype is now going to be shipped to Canada, where a team from the University of Alberta will burninate the gear to see how it holds up in extreme conditions. With the data from these field tests, it’s hoped that NASA and the Forest Service can replace the existing technology in the very near future.
    —————————————————————————–

    Reply

    • Lets hope NASA works on how to filter out stupid. You read those signs “Can’t fix Stupid”. I think Dr. Ted Putnam has been working on that problem as was seen in the Yarnell efforts to control a fire that should have been controlled day 1 in less than three hours by my estimation and that by 3 or four men off ATV’s. Again question one to those elite firemen that sat on their asses rather than take care of an emergency situation would be the start of this. We know they could have and should have and knew right off the bat that it was an extreme fire hazard that ranked as high as you can get on the scale considering the conditions at the time. You can bet had there been someone burning a campfire on that mountain side they would have been there in a heartbeat.

      Second there needs to be and investigator go look at those photos and witnesses to two ATV’s that are time stamped and showing in a long distance photo of that. Are those people just liars that have the photos and are the witnesses just saying something to cause trouble?>Joy has the names of all involved there yet all she has ever got was a restraining order from Amanda Marsh hoping to shut Joy up about the fire and her efforts to make sense of it all. Yet she has continued to get photos, information FOIA’ and data where she can.

      NASA also should do what the young fellow who died at 29 after I hiked him up there. His name was Zack Ashoor and he was suffering asthma and on the Arizona State Respiratory Board. He defied me when I told him he could not walk to the fence and went down there anyway. He told me those were his friends and he would stand before any judge for his action to pay his respects. He was working an a system to provide oxygen to the men in a light easy to carry mechanism. I wonder if he had depleted lungs due to the Hike like many others here. Zack is indeed another hero.

      Reply

  76. We will probably never know who had more of an affinity for the limelight…Willis or Marsh…but I think they were both very attracted to it, therefore, I find it difficult to conceive that these two did not have a clear understanding by at least 4 p.m. that day that this fire was heading into Yarnell in a big way, and the event wasn’t going to be covered merely by just the local AZ stations in Phx, Flag or Tucson.

    And in fact, the video coverage was going to be all over ABC, NBC, CBS and cable as well by that time since Yarnell was national news. There were going to be glimpses of FF’s, possibly some closeups. And GM would not be among them. In a place that was their back yard. Nobody was going to be filming any guys way up on a mountain, miles away. And the clock was ticking.

    I think this could be one more reason why the GMIHC headed for Yarnell in addition to all of the other reasons that we know about, but I would like to know what you think if anyone cares to comment on the thought.

    Reply

    • I hate to say it, but yah know? I think it’s possible to disagree with that.

      I hate to say this, but I don’t think the burning of that little town wouldn’t have made all that much of a dent in the national media. Maybe Arizona, but not national.

      But maybe I’m just cynical.

      How much of a big dent did last year’s burning over of 300 homes in Pateros during the Carlton Complex make in the “national media”? And how long did that last? And how long did anybody (outside of either Washington State or the fire-fighter community even remember that?

      OK, I don’t watch TV. I followed that monster closely on Twitter, but not because it was covered by the national media. And I don’t think I heard much of anything about it on the radio which I listen to all the time.

      I have to admit, I don’t think “big media” was much in the minds of anybody on that fire. Because if it had been, I don’t think the management of it, especially after Bravo 3 realized it was going to change direction and roar into Yarnell at about 12:30 PM (but didn’t communicate that to anyone who mattered), and then, after that, everybody seems to have basically ignored the weather warnings (including but not even remotely limited to Willis and Marsh) seemed to be, essentially, SCREAMING get the crews off the fire and get that evacuation of Yarnell going ASAP. While, again, as this fire was treated like just some piss-poor excuse for a REAL wildfire, nobody actually really seemed to care because it was just Yarnell and not SEDONA (now THAT one really MATTERED)

      I seriously think, actually, that nobody really even gave a damn about this fire (much less any kind of media coverage of it)…………………………………………..

      ……………………………….until it was WAY too late.

      Reply

      • The burning over of Yarnell, Arizona, would have been a mere blip in the radar if it hadn’t killed 19 Hotshots.

        And, actually, to be honest, the burning over of Yarnell, Arizona, is STILL a mere blip in the radar.

        And, even more so, all the other crappola that happened on this fire that almost got a whole lot of OTHER people killed, also, isn’t EVEN a blip in the radar.

        I doesn’t even exist as a molecule.

        Reply

        • That is why I believe that neither Darrell Willis nor Eric Marsh gave one hoot about some kind of hugely bad media attention they would have been subjected to if GM hadn’t valiantly raced down into Yarnell to “SAVE” it.

          Reply

        • If the town of Yarnell had burned over while the Granite Mountain Hotshots sat up there safe in their safe zone (which crews do all the time, so I’ve learned) I don’t think much of anybody who mattered would have even known they were sitting up there in their safe zone.

          Even if THEY felt rather uncomfortable doing that, while applying their Situational Awareness to understand that that was the best place for them to be, especially given that their OPS had told them to DO THAT.

          Reply

          • I mean, what was EVERYBODY else doing during that time????

            Pulling off the fire and scrambling to their Safety Zone, the Ranch House Restaurant Parking Lot.

            Were they being all super-paranoid about how the national media would cover that? Apparently not.

            Reply

            • So, no, I don’t think this is “the clue.”

              But I think it’s possible that something else, perhaps more subtle, might be.

              Which is why I’ve been relentlessly pursing it.

              Reply

              • It’s about a Plan.

                That included a Dozer. And a Blue Ridge Hotshot that was the Dozer Boss.

                And a request to a relatively problematic Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to meet the Granite Mountain Hotshots there.

                A plan that was conjured up and, at least, initially implemented by a Structure Protection Group Supervisor and an Operations Supervisor.

                That resulted in:

                “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

                Reply

                • A piece of the puzzle???????

                  Now we need proof or some thread of fact and we are back to—Blue Ridge—

                  Did the SAIR end with a protection of some Overhead
                  Or no body did any thing wrong 19 Fire Fighters died because of the weather and Radios.

                  At this point with all you know about Fire Fighting do you believe that???????

                  And we are back to DEATH FROM ABOVE—–
                  an ill conceived plan from a bunch of want-a-be Fire over head who never had a clue working for Arizona State Fire
                  Are we really that close???????

                  Reply

                  • Well…yes, I think this is one area where we disagree. You and WTKTT and others are focused on the fire and I am focused on the human factors aspect.

                    That being said, I keep in mind that there was tremendous pressure on both Willis and Marsh to prove their worth to the leaders in Prescott because the Wildland Division was on the chopping block.

                    And I have always thought from the very beginning that Marsh took his crew to the backside of Yarnell in order to look like heroes to the community there, in Prescott and all over Arizona to help save their crew from the Prescott City Council and the news media aspect is a continuation of that. So…

                    I am also unfortunately, a cable news junky because I keep it on in the background while I am working on my hobbies, websites and writing. And I remember the Yarnell Hill Fire differently than you do, just as I remember how the fires in Colorado Springs, Los Alamos and California are regularly covered by the national media and especially cable news.

                    Reply

              • I didn’t even suggest it was a clue, I do believe however, it is an important aspect of the human factors concept. I think it great you and others are working on the technical details of the fire, and I think it is great I am bringing attention to the human factors side of what happened. And that is because I strongly believe ALL of the CAUSAL factors will be found in the human factors side of this story. But I hope you keep looking at the fire.

                Reply

            • Nobody else’s program was on the chopping block like the Prescott Fire Department Wildlands Division and the GMIHC was, so no, no one else was concerned about generating positive coverage. I was a serial news whore in Santa Fe where we could stand out when I was a hotshot crew boss to help build our reputations as elite blah, blah, blah. And that was just to build our reps, not save our jobs.

              I gotta respect the way Blue Ridge does it, turning their backs on the media, but I don’t think that is the way to go to suck up to the tax payers with no risk, potential high return with no risk, who wouldn’t take that?

              Reply

              • Gary and Bob~

                I completely agree with you about the decisions of Marsh and Steed, and their violation of every rule and common-sense principle in the “book” being the cause of their deaths.

                And I agree that the relationship between Marsh and Willis (and how that came to be – which I REALLY appreciate your bringing to light) and their relationship to the political machinery of Prescott (and the Prescott Fire Department), and how the local media would be playing that out being a HUGE set of Human Factors in this.

                Think of it as if we’re on a see-saw.

                I’m counter-balancing what you’re saying, not discounting it.

                (And yes, it’s interesting how Blue Ridge has avoided the limelight/media. When I was trying to find out more about the crew, including which faces belonged to whom, it was enlightening to me to find out how INVISIBLE they stayed on the Internet. I almost couldn’t find a THING about them, while all the other Hotshot Crews have been making YouTube videos about themselves for YEARS. But not Blue Ridge!)

                You don’t think what WTKTT and I have spent most of the past five days 24/7 trying to ferret out and describe is Human Factors? Are you kidding me?

                WTKTT and I are unsealing a carefully sealed and locked away, in some filing cabinet, envelope.

                There’s a REASON that envelope has been sealed and locked away in that filing cabinet. If there hadn’t been a REASON, it wouldn’t have been LOCKED AWAY.

                You don’t think THAT is Human Factors, just technical details of the fire?

                Are you kidding me?

                You are describing the swimmer. We’re describing the state of the water. I think the two go together.

                However, you have been able to ferret out more details about the swimmer (given your connections and perseverance, which is AWESOME) than we have been able to ferret out details about the water. After almost two friggin whole years.

                You don’t think that when I discovered Paul Musser’s involvement in this that that’s a Human Factor?

                Are you kidding me?

                One of the burning questions in everybody minds has, ALL ALONG been, “Did somebody ORDER/PRESSURE them into this?”

                And now we have, by relentlessly putting dots together, figured out that, indeed there was a PLAN that resulted in Eric Marsh answering a question addressed to him by SOMEBODY (quite possibly Paul Musser) with an answer (in something of an exasperated tone, I might add) of “They’re coming off the heel of the fire.”

                You think this is just technical and not Human Factors? Are you kidding me?

                I’ve been involved in Human Factors all my life! You don’t think I know them when I see them?

                And we have, by also relentlessly finding dots and trying to figure out how to put them together, discovered that Gary Cordes assigned his, somewhat feckless regarding some other things, Task Force Leader (Trainee) to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch to pick up the Granite Mountain Hotshots.

                When, apparently, NOBODY else on that fire knew where they were headed, or why, or how, or when.

                Even when they were all trying to figure out how to FIND THEM after they deployed.

                And that’s not Human Factors?????

                Are you kidding me?

                I guess I’m operating out of a broader definition of Human Factors than you are, even though your Human Factors focus has been total invaluable in this, and I thank you for it.

                And I’m guessing Ted Putnam has a broader definition of Human Factors also, all things considered.

                Especially given his refusal to sign off on the South Canyon Report, given his REASONS for that refusal.

                Namaste.

                Reply

  77. So I thought I had downloaded the Blue Ridge GPS video, but I can’t find it either on my computer or online. Can someone give me the link for it, pretty Pleeze?

    Reply

    • The whole thing is sitting here on YouTube…

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8cEKBzlhws

      What is still fascinating is that when Frisby and Brown first left the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot in the Polaris Ranger… it seems pretty obvious they already KNEW that Granite Mountain had deployed somewhere out there just west of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

      The GPS shows them ‘probing’ and trying to find a way through Glen Ilah and out to the BSR itself.

      They never found the way to get out to the BSR.

      They actually never ‘probed’ any farther back than that same intersection of Lakewood and Manzanita where Cory Ball shot some of his pictures prior to this ‘ground rescue’ attempt from the ATV he had borrowed from the Yarnell Fire station.

      I still wonder, then, why they got ‘hung up’ checking out all those bladder bags back up at the anchor point when they gave up on the Glen Ilah access route and then ‘busted through farther north on Shrine Road.

      If they were so sure they needed to be looking for GM just west of the BSR when they first left the RHR parking lot… what happened to ‘distract’ them and then get stuck going back and forth all around the anchor point, about 25 minutes after that ‘probing’ in Glen Ilah?

      Did the ‘sighting’ of those bladder bags on the part of DPS Ranger 58 chopper make them think what they had been told at the Ranch House Restaurant was simply WRONG?

      We also still don’t know WHO told Frisby and Brown to start looking for the just west of the BSR… or why they were so convinced that’s where they should start looking.

      Did Gary Cordes tell them that’s where they should start looking?

      Or was it Brendan McDonough ( who was also right there with them at the RHR )?

      Reply

      • Is anyone noticing ( like I am ) that no matter where any conversation goes about what really was happening that day…

        …we always run into needing MORE INFORMATION from one or more Blue Ridge Hotshots?

        Reply

      • Thanks WTKTT! I wanted to download it and it wasn’t working, so I went to your version but apparently you have that blocked or something, and so I was THINKING somewhere it was on JDs Dropbox.

        But I just tried downloading it and, so far it seems to be working.

        Regarding your questions, I’ve ALWAYS wondered that, also.

        Which is why, given this whole conversation we’re having, I wanted to go back and watch it a bit more carefully. Because I thought maybe my thinking was wrong.

        I was assuming they went into Glen Ilah and went over to the southwest side of it, in order to get over to that big driveway into Boulder Springs Ranch. Which is where I’m also still thinking the dozer got entangled with the powerline.

        Well, it’s downloaded, and I have Trew’s notes open, so I guess I’ll go see how well they correspond with each other. He says they first tried to get in via Shrine (sure wish I could easily copy/paste from these but I can’t). Then they tried Lakewood, but it was too dangerous. Then they tried another route off Lakewood, but decided that was ALSO too dangerous. So then they go to Shrine again, and tie in with the Three Prescotteers.

        He then says, “We tell them about access and where we think the site may be.’

        Reading on, not only did they get hung up with the bladder bags, but they also went down all the way to the grader.

        He says this:

        “This is the area where they would have been had they been traveling in the Black like we initially thought.”

        They’re definitely being guided by the helicopter in stead of whatever thoughts they seem to have been having when they tried to get in via Glen Ilah.

        Maybe they thought the chopper could see better than then, so if the chopper said “Go there” they went there?

        Apparently they didn’t tell the helicopter where they had earlier thought the crew was deployed, it kind of seems to me.

        But, come to think of it, if they really thought the deployment was nearer Boulder Springs Ranch, why would have they tried Shrine Road first?

        Wait a minute, just found this:

        After they “punched through” off Shrine:

        “We punch it and make it through we head up the Dozer line and the tie into the 2 track and take that until we make the left hand turn up the 2 track to where we think they may be. I transmit this over crew to xxxxx at the staging area who relays this to the Medical Group leader (which has dismantled the Task force we had and builds something else altogether) [that’s Cougan Carothers]”

        So that description makes it seem to me that all along they were thinking the crew was deployed somewhere on the ridge or just down below it on that two track, where Frisby had earlier tried to clarify with Marsh is that was what they were heading down.

        So, apparently they DIDN’T think, much less, know Granite Mountain had not come down the two-track like they thought they did.

        Reply

        • So, looking at the GPS video, they get as far up as Lakewood Manzanita, and then take a road that goes west, and then try to go a little south on the southwest edge of Glen Ilah. But they never take the road that leads up north on the west side of Glen Ilah that then leads to the driveway of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

          And, remember, trucks and tenders were going in and out of that area all day, so it must have been pretty messed up out there.

          Interesting.

          They didn’t know where GM was deployed. I guess all that talking with Brendan with maps and all spread out over the hood of that red truck didn’t reveal anything.

          And, apparently, Gary didn’t add anything at all to that conversation, given that he was, apparently, the sole person on the fire who “knew” they were deployed somewhere near the Ranch.

          I knew he was busy, but one would think?

          Reply

          • >> Marti said…
            >>
            >> I knew he was busy, but one would think?

            Given the ‘radio silence’ following the deployment and the fact that no one could be sure these men weren’t still alive but in GRAVE need of medical attention…

            The idea that ANYONE there on that fire, either physically there at the Ranch House Restaurant staging where the actual ground rescue mission was being put together… or ANYWHERE on the fire… would NOT have been IMMEDIATELY offering up EVERY possible piece of information or actual knowledge they possessed to help establish the exact whereabouts of this crew and get them immediate medical attention…

            …out of any possible concern for their own hides or stupid jobs…

            is just… welll…

            Geezus. I don’t even have a word for that.

            And I’m talking about Gary Cordes, Brendan McDonough, Darrell Willis, and YES… even those 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who had been moving the other GM vehicles.

            Don’t forget that in one of the additional 21 Aaron Hulburd videos that US Forestry had always been withholding from everyone legally tasked with investigating this incident… there is a RADIO exchange between OPS2 Paul Musser and Air Attack John Burfiend in Bravo 33.

            It happened maybe 10 to 15 minutes after the deployment.

            Musser asked Burfiend directly if he ( Burfiend ) had any idea where the crew was located.

            Burfiend could only GUESS.

            That means that even by that time… 10 to 15 minutes after the deployment… there WASN’T any ‘general knowledge’ about thier most likely location spreading around that RHR parking lot and to the members of the now-assembling ground team.

            That also means that if anyone there ( Cordes, McDonough, Hotshots, whoever ) did have that information… they were actually still CHOOSING to keep it to themselves.

            Like I said… if that really happened… I don’t even have a word for that.

            I mean has anyone really thought about what is going to happen here if Brendan McDonough testifies that he pretty much knew almost EXACTLY where they were based on what he had been hearing on the radio…

            …but he was NOT telling anyone what he knew THAT DAY… in THAT parking lot… at the EXACT moment when a lot of people were doing everything they could to locate them and get them the medical attention they might have desperately needed?

            Reply

            • Followup…

              While typing the post above I thought of a relatively NEW piece of evidence that has emerged related to this whole revisit of exactly what Frisby and Brown did at the start of the ground rescue mission… and whether they really had been TOLD exactly where Granite Mountain was most LIKELY to be found.

              But first… I need to say something.

              From almost the very first chapter of this ongoing discussion, one of my own personal “cannot fathom it” moments is this issue that anyone who might have had ANY relevant knowledge regarding the whereabouts of Granite Mountain would, somehow, have been choosing to WITHHOLD that information in the moments following the MAYDAY radio calls and during those huddles in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.

              That is still true for me.

              If someone was actually doing that… I would find it very, very hard to ever believe it could happen.

              That being said… here’s the NEW evidence related to this.

              In one of the 21 additional Aaron Hulburd videos that the US Forestry service withheld from all investgators… we have the AUDIO confirmation of what Task Force Leader (Trainee) Tyson Esquibel had always written in his Unit Log.

              That SPGS1 Gary Cordes had instructed him to send at least one engine over to the Boulder Springs Ranch… at the same time everyone was evacuating from the Youth Camp.

              The ONLY difference between Esquibel’s actual ( signed ) testimony and what we can now hear for ourselves in the audio capture of that ‘order’ from Cordes is that Cordes ALSO told Esquibel to tell whoever he sent to “Keep an eye out for (Division) Alpha” and “make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there safely”.

              Esquibel ACKNOWLEDGED that additional instruction from Cordes… and then said he would wait until they all finished evacuating down to the Ranch House Restaurant and THEN he would send this engine to the BSR like Cordes wanted him to.

              Gary Cordes acknowledged THAT with (quote)…

              “Sounds like a plan”.

              Only a few MINUTES after that radio exchange between Esquibel and Cordes… Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the radio.

              So now we have Tyson Esquibel himself standing in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot… and EVERYONE’S first thought following those MAYDAY calls is…

              “Where the hell ARE they?”

              Are we supposed to believe that Tyson Esquibel himself didn’t IMMEDIATELY say to SOMEONE…

              “Wait a minute… Cordes just told me a few minutes ago to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to tell that engine to “watch for Alpha” and “make sure Granite Mountain gets out of there OK.”

              “Somebody call Gary RIGHT NOW. He seems to know where DIVSA and GM were supposed to be”.

              Tyson Esquibel makes NO MENTION of either having that thought OR saying anything like that to ANYONE.

              Ditto for Gary Cordes.

              Cordes himself testified that it was Engine Captain Reyes who had to end up telling him that Granite Mountain deployed. Cordes says he never heard the MAYDAY traffic.

              Cordes even says when Reyes told him GM deployed… his first reaction was “Bullshit! They had plenty of time to get there!”

              And Reyes said “No… they got cut off. They deployed”.

              This was now still in the same timeframe while the ground rescue mission was getting organized.

              So even with Tyson Esquibel standing there and having just been told to send an engine to the BSR to “Watch for Granite Mountain”… and even with Cordes arriving there and having to be told by Reyes that GM deployed… but Cordes thought they were ALREADY THERE at the BSR…

              …the ground rescue team still, inconceivably, seemed unaware of where Granite Mountain might have deployed.

              It didn’t make sense way back when… and it doesn’t make any sense now even with the new evidence of Esquibel and Cordes having had that radio exchange just minutes before the first MAYDAY.

              Reply

              • Notice in the last post that I have purposely NOT mentioned Brendan McDonough and/or the 3 Blue Ridge Hotshots who had been moving the other GM vehicles and had access to the same GM intra-crew radio traffic that Brendan did.

                That’s because you can take McDonough and the Blue Ridge Hotshots and what all of them might have been hearing on the GM intra-crew and throw that out the window…

                …and STILL… given just what Gary Cordes ( and Tyson Esquibel ) had shared over the radio just minutes before Jesse’s first MAYDAY… there should have been every reason in the world for that ground rescue team that was forming to have immediately had a damn good idea where that deployment *most likely* took place… and where they should be looking.

                And that includes getting that same information that Cordes and Esquibel seemed to possess right up to the AIR SUPPORT, who were also now frantically looking for them.

                It didn’t happen.

                Upwards of 15 minutes later… we STILL hear OPS2 Musser calling up to John Burfiend and asking… “Do we even have ANY IDEA where they might be?”

                And Burfiend said… “Nope. My best GUESS is south side of the fire somewhere”.

                Reply

            • It is possible the Kid was in shock and he was in a total black out.
              It happens—-

              The discussion with out the specifics may have left the BR crew drivers a little confused as to where they were or where they were headed.

              Just my thoughts—I truly believe Frisby and Brown had no clue where they were and only where they had been.

              Reply

              • Reply to Bob Powers post on June 17, 2015 at 5:51 pm

                >> Bob Powers said…
                >>
                >> It is possible the Kid was in shock and he was
                >> in a total black out. It happens—-

                I suppose… but see the full followup above.

                What I was really trying to point out is that you can take McDonough and the other BR Hotshots and what they ALL might have heard on the GM intra-crew and throw that out the window.

                Just based on the radio exchange we can hear with our own ears between Gary Cordes and Tyson Esquibel just minutes BEFORE the first MAYDAY… there STILL should have been every reason for what Cordes and Esquibel seemed to know to ALSO have immediately been the same common knowledge for the now-forming ground rescue team.

                When Reyes told Cordes GM had deployed…

                Cordes said BULLSHIT.

                That’s how strongly Cordes felt that they had already had “plenty of time to get there”, as he told ADOSH he believed.

                Cordes thought they were ALREADY THERE ( at the BSR ) and that was why he had been telling Esquibel to send an engine TO the BSR… to make sure they got OUT of there.

                With ‘there’ meaning “The Boulder Springs Ranch”.

                >> Bob Powers also said…
                >>
                >> The discussion with out the specifics may have
                >> left the BR crew drivers a little confused as to
                >> where they were or where they were headed.

                Yes. We will only know for sure if Brendan McDonough ( and most likely the 3 BR Hothots was well ) was hearing enough information on the GM intra-crew to know the specifics of their location when he finally testifies under-oath.

                But again… throw Brendan and the BR Hotshots and whatever they heard out the window…and at the time the MAYDAYS hit the radio it would seem that both Cordes and Esquibel knew more than enough to tell people what the MOST LIKELY deployment location was. ( Near the Boulder Springs Ranch ).

                >> Bob Powers also said…
                >>
                >> Just my thoughts—I truly believe Frisby and Brown
                >> had no clue where they were and only where they
                >> had been.

                Here is what I would like either one to someday say about that moment captured in the Tom Story photograph when we see them actually launching on the ground rescue mission.

                “We asked all around the parking lot and on the radio if anyone had any idea where they might be… and we found out they were heading to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and Gary Cordes even thought they might have already been there since he’d already told Esquibel to send an engine out there to get them before the MAYDAY even happened.”

                OR

                “We asked all around the parking lot and on the radio if anyone had any ideas where they might be… and we found out NOTHING,. All we could do then was start GUESSING”.

                Reply

                • And, unfortunately, given what seems to have happened, it appears to me that your second estimate seems to have been correct.

                  Which actually, and in addition, brings back into the room the elephant called “the alleged argument.”

                  How can it be that there was this “argument” that, even Mike Dudley seems to think happened at the descent point and not the rest stop up above in the black, that various people “allegedly” heard………..

                  (…………………Bob Powers can you get back to your sources and ask this?)

                  ……………………..if even Blue Ridge had no clue where they were deployed and Brian and Trew thought, when they were headed out to find them, that they were deployed somewhere along that two-track heading down from the anchor?

                  Well, I guess, sitting here thinking, that it’s possible all these folks heard that “alleged:” argument and still had no idea exactly where it was taking place and exactly what “it” was about.

                  Maybe they all thought it was an argument about heading down the two track and trying to race back to the Sesame area. Which could actually, relatively speaking, make sense. Kinda Sorta. On both sides.

                  Getting across the “big bowl” would possibly have been a whole order of magnitude less dangerous than heading down into that hardcore chimney.

                  Although it still would have been quite dangerous.

                  But Frisby seems to have had, in his mind-“slide,” them picking their way through “the black” across the big bowl Which is why he seems to have thought that that was where to look for them.

                  Unfortunately, where GM went, there was no “the black.”

                  Not even remotely.

                  Reply

                • So, I guess to simplify what I wrote above, it seems that, just because some people “allegedly” heard “an argument” between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed about bringing the crew down from somewhere into somewhere that ended in an order from Eric Marsh to do that,

                  ……..that doesn’t mean that whoever heard that alleged argument actually knew where it was taking place.

                  ……….i.e over a bowl filled with explosive fuels.

                  …………..including the folks that set out to risk their lives to try to find them.

                  Apparently, the ONLY person who, at least inside his head, KNEW where they had actually headed, and who may or may not have heard that argument, was Gary Cordes.

                  Who assigned his Task Force Leader Trainee to send an engine to where he was sure they had headed, in order to meet them there.

                  And who, apparently, never said a word about that to the folks trying to figure out where to send a Search and Rescue crew to find them. And neither did his Task Force Leader Trainee.

                  Even if that, all things considered, would most likely not have made any difference, whatsoever, in the outcome,

                  I agree with WTKTT.

                  I. Just. Can’t.

                  Reply

        • >> Marti wrote…
          >>
          >> Well, it’s downloaded, and I have Trew’s notes open, so I
          >> guess I’ll go see how well they correspond with each other.
          >> He says they first tried to get in via Shrine

          That statement in Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log has NEVER been supported by the GPS data.

          As soon as they launched on this ‘ground rescue mission’ from the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant… they shot straight down Lakewood in Glen Ilah.

          They did NOT “Try Shrine road first”.

          Only when they were done ‘probing around’ in Glen Ilah did they head up to the Shrine road and that’s where they eventually ‘broke through’.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> But, come to think of it, if they really thought the deployment
          >> was nearer Boulder Springs Ranch, why would have they tried
          >> Shrine Road first?

          They didn’t.

          That’s always been just some kind of misstatement on Brown’s part in his Unit Log.

          >> Marti also said…
          >>
          >> He says this:
          >> “This is the area where they would have been had they been
          >> traveling in the Black like we initially thought.”

          Exactly. That has always been double-proof that neither he nor Frisby ever thought, for one second, that they were “Headed to a ranch somewhere up north” like the damn Arizona Forestry SAIR document reported.

          Arizona Forestry’s SAIT was just “making that up” and INSERTING that THOUGHT into Brian Frisby’s head because it ‘sounded good’ and matched/supported their own pre-determined narrative.

          Reply

          • Gotcha, my mistake (as well as Trew’s)

            “That statement in Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log has NEVER been supported by the GPS data.

            As soon as they launched on this ‘ground rescue mission’ from the parking lot of the Ranch House Restaurant… they shot straight down Lakewood in Glen Ilah.”

            Reply

          • “Exactly. That has always been double-proof that neither he nor Frisby ever thought, for one second, that they were “Headed to a ranch somewhere up north” like the damn Arizona Forestry SAIR document reported.

            Arizona Forestry’s SAIT was just “making that up” and INSERTING that THOUGHT into Brian Frisby’s head because it ‘sounded good’ and matched/supported their own pre-determined narrative.”

            Exactly. However, I’m not referencing the SAIT. SOMETHING is there, I think.

            From the YIN (however bad it is):

            “B & T get in the trucks and bump them around. Cortis wants to know if the Rd to GM is an option, Eric says I copy fire is progressed to the buggies, Also going to make our way through out escape route. Brian asks are you in good black? Eric says “picking our way through the black to the rd in the bottom out towards the ranch” Brian thinks he meant towards the 2 track. To confirm Brian says, “the rd we came on w/ the ranger…affirm.”

            From Brian’s almost impossible to read notes:

            “I then headed for the Supt truck to refuel the Ranger. I met xxxxx there and I was called by xxxxxx on tac 1 and he asked if burning the two track was still an option. I told him no and that if it hasn’t yet it will burn over the track very quickly. He coped and xxxxxxxxxxx called and agreed with what I said and he said ware the trucks were parked was all black. xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx”

            I’m wondering what’s behind all those x’s?

            I’m willing to bet this is the same essential conversation. Unless someone can tell me I’m off here, which I could be.

            Reply

              • Yep. That HUGE redaction there would seem to be what Brian Frisby REALLY thought…

                …and when Mike Dudley was working on the redactions he knew it was going to contradict the agreed-upon-fiction he and Karels had put in the SAIR… so it had to go.

                PS: When I say ‘Mike Dudley was working on the redactions’… I really believe that was the case.

                Dudley was the POINT MAN for the USFS in all this.

                When it came time to start REDACTING… I think that job fell to Dudley himself.

                No one knew better than Mike Dudley what was going to need to be redacted in those Blue Ridge Unit Logs in order to even try and make the SAIR look like a valid document.

                Reply

                • Exactly.

                  And my point being that I think that redaction is about this conversation between Brian and Eric about the route.

                  And I’m thinking this REDACTED conversation COULD have been what left Brian thinking GM WAS coming down the two-track that they had been using.

                  With or without any reference to some “ranch.”

                  Which is why I’m saying that, because of that conversation (whatever game the SAIT tried to play with it), Brian Frisbee DIDN’T “know” where they had deployed. because he thought they were deployed somewhere near the two track leading down from the east side of the ridge.

                  Fricken Us Forest Service.

                  Reply

                  • Here’s what I would believe.

                    As I stated above… it still remains inconceivable to me that any FF who had even the slightest inkling about exactly WHERE GM might have deployed would NOT have spoken up about it in those frantic moments when that was the most important thing in the world for the rescuers to know.

                    So I sort of HAVE to believe that Frisby and Brown were at least TOLD it was likely they were somewhere ‘out there’ to the west of Boulder Springs Ranch.

                    So that’s why they did NOT go ‘straight up to the Shrine Road’ and try to immediately return to where THEY though GM had been ‘coming down’ ( the same two track they went up on ).

                    But I think very quickly they discovered how absolutely difficult it was going to be to try and get to the BSR in the timeframe they were doing it.

                    So I believe they then decided to just ignore this ‘vague’ information about them being ‘west of the BSR’ and they fell back on their own instincts.

                    They ( Frisby and Brown ) might have still absolutely believed their OWN impressions that Marsh had been trying to bring GM down via (quote) “that same two-track that we came up on”.

                    I still very, very, very much look forward to the day when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ( and all the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) can speak for themselves about what they did or didn’t think, did or didn’t say, and did or didn’t do that day… with NO REDACTIONS.

                    Reply

                    • I guess I have to say, I just don’t know about that.

                      They just didn’t even make any serious attempt to “punch through” to the Boulder Springs Ranch via the route that was being used all day to get to the Boulder Springs Ranch by other vehicles.

                      It seems to me that if “someone” had actually really clued them in on that, they would have kept trying to do that, rather than waste time going all the way over to Shrine Road and take the long long way in.

                      Including wasting a bunch more time going down to the dozer and a bunch more other time going off to the bladder bags.

                      This whole circuitous route speaks to me that they, in fact, were never notified by anybody who shoulda couda have notified them, that the Granite Mountain Hotshots had, most likely, deployed somewhere in the realm of the Boulder Springs Ranch.

                    • And, yep, this:

                      “I still very, very, very much look forward to the day when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ( and all the other Blue Ridge Hotshots ) can speak for themselves about what they did or didn’t think, did or didn’t say, and did or didn’t do that day… with NO REDACTIONS.”

  78. Well as I was checking this morning I found that there was a new posting on the–yarnellhillfireblog
    about the other blog namely us. at the end of there little statement they said something I had to forward here.
    ——-one of the people on our Blog has a criminal record.——-

    It also pretty much said the professor was not responsible for the things that were said on the yarnellhillfireblog . What a total BS Blog this is. The have never retracted their statement that Fred was suing JD and IM which never was true and they call us a GOSSIP BLOG—-

    They did not mention Gary’s name but he is now famous over there to.

    So who ever dose or dose not actually have a criminal record they will be naming you soon.
    That’s there style.

    Reply

    • I think at this point, all things considered, we should stick to our work and

      Not. Get. Sidetracked.

      They think its a game.

      I’m not gonna play.

      Reply

      • Oh I know it is a game they would like for people here to comment.
        just so they can attack back I have checked it off and on but I ain’t getting on there
        even if they attack me which they have already.
        Just thought some might be interested especially JD.
        They are now being careful not to name sites or people.

        Reply

    • Bob…are you telling me I have to apologize to Elizabeth and beg her forgiveness for being such an asshole and a loose cannon? Please say it ain’t so.

      Reply

      • Your asking me ??????
        I have not nor will I ever Apologize to the Black Widow. And I was close to you on what I said to her.

        Reply

        • Well…it was actually a rhetorical question just for fun. I did shoot from the hip again from a horse at full gallop…my bad.

          Reply

    • What good does it do to be famous if they don’t use my name…damn it!

      I know I said this a long time ago on this blog, but I had to care what everybody thought about everything for 35 years and now I am really enjoying not caring what anybody thinks about anything (except for my dear wife and the regulars on this blog and maybe a couple of other, but they are pretty much non judgmental)

      Reply

  79. This is gonna be brief because I’m not ready to write anything more than brief. Plus I really need to reboot, because my computer is getting really sloggy and hard to type on..

    But before I do that, I want to post a couple of tidbits.

    I was looking around at logs, notes, etc, and Resource Orders just to help get into my who was doing what during that time the dozer got tangled up with the powerline.
    —————————————

    Dan Philbin. From his Unit Log:

    20:40 [I think] Took over as Structure Group 2 in Yarnell. Bedded down water tenders Kept 1 engine up to Patrol and Secure. Assissted with getting Dozer untangled from powerline

    0800 Transition with Day Shift.
    —————————————-

    Dan Philbin from his ADOSH interview:

    429 Q3: Okay. All right. And then uh, the evening by 2030 you were a structure
    430 group uh, there’s Z – 2, probably 2 sorry.
    431
    432 A: Yeah. Structure Group 2 I took over for uh, Gary Cordes uh, go and get him
    433 some uh, sleep. He’d been working long hours. And so I went to go bed –
    434 bed him down. So he’d take over the day shift and I’d cover the night shift for
    435 him. And then once the Type 1 Team came in they kept me on for a couple
    436 more nights before I told them that I – I need to go.

    Apparently they didn’t ask him anything about the powerline entanglement. Even tho the dozer operator had been listed on the MIA list.

    But it would seem to me that, when Cordes handed off Structure Group 2 to Dan Philbin, that would have put Philbin “in charge” of the dozer. Unless something else was going on, which very well might have been the case, all things considered.

    And, OK, I’ll say what case that very well might have been.

    I have no clue exactly what the dozer was doing over there when it got tangled up, but it seems to have been about clearing some kind of access out to the southwest towards BSR and the deployment site.

    So that might mean Todd Abel had assigned himself the dozer and put Dean Stewart in charge of it as DozerBoss BEFORE the dozer got entangled. Especially since Philbin says he ASSISTED with dis-entangling it.

    There’s no resource order for Dean Stewart. Whatsoever. There IS a backfill resource order for Dan Philbin, who is listed as DIVS. Dan Philbin said he was a DIVS on Bea Day’s team.

    I have a listing of Bea Day’s team, but it is as of 2014. Neither Dan Philbin nor Dean Stewart are on it.

    So I don’t know whose IMT Dean Stewart was associated with on that day/night or whenever.
    ———————————-

    Two interesting things from Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log:

    “1632 St Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Sprgs. TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone. St Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cafe Safety zone.”

    I had read that several times in the past and thought, OK. And so there it is. Just for the record.

    “1900 added E-287 + Phx WT 54 to TF2, resources doing sm burnout on E side of Hwy 89 around Cafe, other units foaming cafe and structures in vicinity, lots of ember wash.”

    So that probably explains what Joy saw going on.

    “

    Reply

    • And PS just for clarity’s sake.

      The entanglement with the powerline happened several hours later than the listing of the dozer operator on the MIA list.

      Reply

    • And also, adding to the confusion…………..Dean Stewart is a mis-spelling. His name is actually Dean Steward.

      And I think I’ve gotten closer to figuring it out.

      Dean Steward retired from CYFD in February, 2013.

      But I think was part of Tony Sciacca’s Team. He was in 2010.

      And, now, in 2015, he’s a Structure Protection Specialist on Mark Ruggiero’s Type One Team, Mark Ruggiero having inherited that team from Tony Sciacca, who retired from it at the end of last year in order to do full-time work on the Southwest Wildfire Academy.

      Actually, it looks like both Todd Abel and Dean Steward have been on Tony Sciacca’s team team for quite a while.

      Reply

      • I’m easily guessing either Tony or Todd just gave him a call. And he just came right down. For “whatever.”

        And, apparently, he may not even have been paid for it, by that time, all things considered.

        Reply

        • The first mention of Dean Steward in Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview says:

          “we were able to get a manifest from – from, uh, Brandan. Um, and
          2337 at the same time Jason Klasen calls me on my phone, gives me an address to
          2338 Helms’ place. Myself, Dean Stewart, Cougan Carothers and Steve Emery
          2339 start working out way back in here to go tie in with these guys. Um,
          2340 obviously, you can imagine it’s pretty chaotic in there. We get through and,
          2341 uh, go out to the ranch. Walk out there, you know, once again confirm that
          2342 we had 19.”

          And then:

          “Uh, gather everybody up to kind of start brainstorming how we’re gonna get
          2362 from here to here and the bodies from there to there. Um, we come up with a
          2363 plan to get a dozer in there. We pop that dozer line in. Probably 3:30 4
          2364 o’clock in the morning – maybe 4:30 it finally gets done.”

          Reply

          • Good catch, Marti.

            I hadn’t seen that before… that this ‘Dean Stewart’ ( Steward ), close friend and ex-engine mate of Todd Abel’s, was actually part of that group of FFs that first went out to the BSR and then on to the deployment site to CONFIRM the body count(s).

            There has NEVER been any official resource entry for a ‘Dean Stewart’ OR a ‘Dean Steward’.

            So here’s another totally off-the-radar person playing a significant role in the discovery of the Granite Mountain Hotshot bodies ( just like off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).

            If this statement from Todd Abel himself is accurate… then this ‘Dean Stewart’ ( Steward ) friend of his must have arrived in Yarnell pretty much BEFORE the deployment.

            In what capacity?

            And ‘hired’ by WHO… to do WHAT?

            Darrell Willis says he recalls for sure and certain that sometime later that night this “Dean Stewart’ ( Steward ) guy was the one actually putting in the dozer line to the deployment site because of how THEY wanted the Sheriff in and out of there FAST and how afraid they were they news helicopters would get any footage of anything the next morning…

            But if Dean Stewart ( Steward ) was ALREADY THERE in Yarnell around the time of deployment so that he could be one of the FIVE or so members of the “Granite Mountain Incident Within An Incident” management team… WHO asked him to be there… WHEN.. .and WHY.. .and WHEN did he actually arrive in Yarnell?

            You realize now that if you include this off-the-radar friend of Todd Abel’s ( Dean Steward ) in the list of firefighters that were actually at the deployment site and confirming the deaths of Granite Mountain…

            More than HALF of those actual FFs who where the first to be out at the deployment site and confirming the deaths have NEVER been interviewed by ANYONE.

            Indeed… these FFs weren’t even technically ‘there at all’, according to Arizona Forestry and their own reports and resource orders.

            I am, of course… talking about…

            Jason Clawson
            Aaron Hulburd
            KC ‘Bucky’ Yowel
            and now including Todd Abel’s close friend…
            Dean Steward

            As far as we know… the ONLY two Arizona Forestry employees that were actually first ‘on the scene’ out there who HAVE been interviewed by any investigator would be…

            OPS1 Todd Abel
            DPS Officer/Paramedic Eric Tarr.

            I am still just talking about “first on scene” here, and not the FULL list of FFs that might have been tromping around that site all night long before the YCSO detectives arrived at first light.

            Darrell Willis’ right-hand-guy in Structure Group 1 was that Prescott Engine Captain Cory Moser.

            Just before the first anninversary this Cory Moser guy was suddenly talking to the media and he’s the one who first reported that there were upwards of 30 to 40 ( THIRTY TO FORTY ) firefighters who were “hanging around” out there at the Boulder Springs Ranch all night.

            Moser says they all made a “pact” amonst themselves to never talk about what they ‘saw’ or ‘did’ out there that night.

            That, itself, has always been one big WEIRD BOMB.

            What in the hell is Moser talking about here?

            Are they all ‘Masons’ and they performed one of those secret Masonry ceremonies out there that night, or something?

            We KNOW that an unauthorized group of FFs did walk all over the deployment site that night and were ‘disturbing the scene’.

            They put TARPS all over the bodies because of how absolutely terrfied they were that a news chopper might get a ground shot at first light and before the YCSO detectives could finish their work.

            But we still don’t know HOW MANY of those 30 to 40 FFs reported by Cory Moser were ‘allowed’ to actually participate in this placement of the tarps or otherwise actually set foot inside the taped off deployment site area.

            Since Cory Moser saw fit to finally talk about this just prior to the FIRST anniversary… maybe this year we’ll get the followup segment and he’ll say what this secret ‘pact’ they all made was really all about.

            Reply

            • Whoops. Brain fart up above.

              Obviously DPS Officer and Paramedic Eric Tarr could NOT be considered an ‘Arizona Forestry employee’ that day in the same way OPS1 Todd Abel could.

              So that takes us down to just ONE ( out of MANY ) Arizona Forestry employees who was actually first “on the ground’ at the deployment site who has ever been officially interviewed by any investigators ( as far as we know )…

              OPS1 Todd Abel

              Others that we now KNOW were also “under the tape” out there at the deployment site and helping Todd Abel do the initial body count ( but who have never been interviewed ) would be…

              Jason Clawson ( PNF )
              Aaron Hulburd ( PNF )
              KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( PNF )
              Dean Steward ( Abel’s friend and ex engine-mate. Retired ).

              Reply

            • Actually, as I’ve continued thinking about it, I think it could just as easily have been Tony Sciacca who called Dean Steward and asked him if he could come down and help out.

              And it could have easily been after the deployment.

              If Dean Steward was there when the deaths were confirmed, which he pretty much had to have been, which happened at 6:35 pm, given that it takes about an hour to get from Prescott to Yarnell (or maybe a bit more given the probable traffic chaos), he could have left Prescott as late as 5:15-ish,

              I have a slide in my head. it’s a Tom Story photo (one of a bunch of them) showing two white-helmeted guys and some fire-fighters hunkered around the hood of Paul Musser’s truck at 5:12 PM.

              I bet you dollars to donuts that the one that isn’t Paul Musser is Tony Sciacca.

              They must have been discussing on-going operations, not the IWI. They may have even talked about how they had that dozer and how they might need it. But maybe not. But maybe so.

              This was an hour and a half before the deaths were confirmed and Todd Abel and friends were high-tailing it out to the Boulder Springs Ranch.

              Tony Sciacca was totally aware of the chaos going on, and he was not one to waste time while getting things done that needed to be done.

              Including calling his Division Supervisor (and friend), whose creds and quals I’m sure he knew all about. And probably a bunch of other people on his IMT as well.

              And at that point, all things considered, I don’t think he was thinking about doing all (or any) paperwork.

              So Tony calls Dean about that time, and Dean rolls down from Prescott, arriving about the time the deaths have been confirmed, and heads out to the Boulder Springs Ranch with his other friend (and co-member of Tony’s IMT) Todd Abel. And everybody that matters knows he’s a red-carded Dozer Boss.

              The other thing I conjured, as I was trying to conjure.

              They get out to the Boulder Springs Ranch, and do what they do, and are looking around and see a bunch of powerlines along that road leading up that west side of Glen Ilah, where everybody has been all day (and will continue, in spades) coming and going.

              Possibly burned and possibly looking like they might actually tip over or something.

              And they see “Snags.” And they think
              “Snags.” And, thus they want them DOWN. And going DOWN under THEIR control, not nature’s.

              And the rest is history.

              Oh, and PS. I actually learned about Dean Stewart being Dean Steward a LONG time ago. When we talked about him before, I went looking for him.

              I found him on Facebook. And I used to read him, and Tony, and Todd and a variety of others, conversing with each other and their friends on Facebook, regularly.

              Until they all shuttered their Facebook pages. Which didn’t surprise me at all. It happened a few weeks after the Slide Fire.

              Reply

    • Marti Reed says

      Reply to Marti post on June 17, 2015 at 9:03 am

      >> Marti said…
      >>
      >> I have no clue exactly what the dozer was doing over there when it got
      >> tangled up, but it seems to have been about clearing some kind of
      >> access out to the southwest towards BSR and the deployment site.

      We can always be pretty sure that there were no ‘down power lines’ blocking actual access out the BSR at least in the immediate aftermath of the burnover and the discovery/verification of the bodies.

      Todd Abel doesn’t mention having any problems getting right out there to the BSR with other members of his “Incident Within an Incident” command team once off-the-radar hire Jason Clawson was radioing him and telling him where the bodies were. He shot out there with his own IWI teammates ( Dean Steward included ) and was immediately walked out to the site to go ‘under the tape’ and do his OWN body count.

      Whatever consternation happened with the power lines came LATER… for other reasons.

      The way I read Paul Musser’s testimony… they first had a heck of a time getting confirmation that these power lines in question were, in fact, totally DEAD… but they wanted them CUT.

      The Utility people then told Musser to just ‘push them down’.

      So it sounds like the entanglement happened at THAT point… when they were trying to just do what the Utility people told them to do.

      Exact LOCATION where this ‘entanglement’ happened is still unknown.. but it pretty much had to be out there at the west end of Glen Ilah somewhere.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> So that might mean Todd Abel had assigned himself the dozer

      I think that is what happened, yes.

      I think shortly after the confirmation of the body count… that dozer became ‘assigned’ to Todd Abel’s “Incident Within An Incident”.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> and put Dean Stewart in charge of it as DozerBoss

      Todd Abel might have then encountered the same situation as Gary Cordes did that morning when the dozer showed up.

      Now he had a dozer… but the guy operating it wasn’t even legally able to do anything in that workplace because he lacked the correct credentials ( red-card ).

      So now Abel had to do what Cordes had to do that morning.

      He had to BORROW someone who DID have the right QUALS just to babysit the dozer so it could do any work at all.

      That might have just ended up being Dean Steward because he was THERE.

      In other words… it wasn’t even PLANNED that Steward should become any kind of HEQB/DOZB… but it just turned out that way because of this ongoing situation with
      the unqualified Paul Morin guy showing up with that dozer that day.

      >> Marti also said…
      >>
      >> Two interesting things from Tyson Esquibel’s Unit Log:
      >>
      >> “1632 St Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Sprgs. TF2 request after
      >> regroup @ Safety Zone. St Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cafe Safety zone.”
      >>
      >> I had read that several times in the past and thought, OK. And so there it is.
      >> Just for the record.

      Yep. And Esquibel’s log entry still matches almost EXACTLY what we hear transpiring on the radio between he and Cordes in one of thsoe ‘recently released’ Aaron Hulburd video.

      Cordes wanted one ( or two ) engines to get to the BSR.
      Esquibel said he would send ONE… but only after they got done evacuating from the Youth Camp and had a chance to regroup down at the Ranch House Restaurant.
      Gary Cordes acknowledged that plan of action with “Sounds like a plan”.

      The only thing missing between that actual radio conversation and Esquibel’s log entry is that Gary Cordes also specifically said something about that engine making sure DIVSA Marsh and/or Granite Mountain got ‘out of there safely’.

      Gary Cordes knew, for sure and certain, that at least DIVS Marsh was very near that Bolder Springs Ranch… and also that Granite Mountain was either already there or just about to arrive there. Cordes has never even denied he had this knowledge, at THAT time, just BEFORE the deployment.

      The other ‘interesting’ thing about this statement in Esquibel’s log is, of course, that Esquibel felt it was important enough to mention… but Gary Cordes himself never mentions ANYTHING about this exchange with Esquibel and the instructions he gave him.

      Not in his logs… not to any investigator… zero. zip. nada.

      >> Marti also wrote…
      >>
      >> “1900 added E-287 + Phx WT 54 to TF2, resources doing sm burnout
      >> on E side of Hwy 89 around Cafe, other units foaming cafe and
      >> structures in vicinity, lots of ember wash.”
      >>
      >> So that probably explains what Joy saw going on.

      Good catch!

      Yes.. it certainly does.

      And here is that ‘drip torch burnout’ reference Joy recently made which seems to match this log entry…

      >> On June 12, 2015 at 12:47 pm Joy A. Collura said…
      >>
      >> The drip torch videos I remember are on other side of 89 by
      >> ranch house restaurant and that wall and a firefighter visible
      >> on a hill with Pat Bernard’s place in video and photos and yes
      >> where you say above Sonny.

      Reply

  80. On the Dozer they normally would not walk it down a black top road to a new location.
    it is there fore possible that the Dozer had to load on the Low Boy and move it to a new staging area or parking area in or near Glen Isla.
    If the location the Dozer was at was a ways from the new possible dozer push and across any black top roads they would normally load and move. It takes a little time to load and secure the Dozer on the Flat bed Low Boy. This might explain the Dozer on the Low Boy driving around in Glen Isla.
    In the process the Dozer got separated from the other Fire equipment or Ball and was attempting by then to get out of the way of the fires burning thru Glen Isla with all the other traffic that was a big piece of equipment to maneuver thru that housing area.
    Every body was evacuating and they lost track of the Dozer/lowboy/operator thus the search for them.

    Reply

    • Bob~

      Yes, I agree with what you are writing here.

      I’m thinking Morin and Cory Ball lost track of each other, even though they were in the same “place,” relatively speaking.

      Reply

    • >> Bob Powers wrote…
      >>
      >> that was a big piece of equipment to maneuver thru that housing area.

      Yes, it was.

      Matter of fact.. I believe that at any point there on that main Lakewood drive… at the moment that LOBOY was travelling in either direction it would have been hard for another car to pass by it. Those were small, tight, residential roads.

      So it stands to reason that a LOT of Glen Ilah residents must have had a ‘glimpse’ of this thing when it was moving through that subdivision… in ANY direction.

      Let me just say that a part of me actually HOPES that there really was never any reason for Paul Morin to be on the same “missing persons” list as Granite Mountain was that afternoon.

      I HOPE this really does all come down to people in fire command losing track of the whereabouts of their own dozer and operator… but that he really did have plenty of time to load that puppy up and get the hell out of there.

      Any other outcome still just reflects very badly on the people who were running that fire, and how they completely lost control of the situation that afternoon.

      It will always remain odd, however, that even with all the videos and all the photographs… there is still NO SIGN of that humongous yellow LOBOY and that not-small dozer sitting on it anywhere there along Highway 89.

      We even have that long video shot by Blue Ridge from just after the time they took a left onto Highway 89 and headed south to the RHR until almost the time they pulled into the RHR. There is NO SIGN of the LOBOY Dozer ‘staged’ anywhere there along Highway 89.

      Reply

      • Correction fro above… Blue Ridge took a RIGHT onto Highway 89 coming out of the shrine area and then headed south to RHR and that is when that video was being shot.

        Reply

        • I also am surprised that the Lowboy was not on the road that the rescue UTV’s took to get out on the hill. I am assuming that is where the down power lines were. So the Dozer got there later You would think that Frisby would have gone to the last spot that the Dozer and LoBoy were at with the Chase truck. if they were still looking for it or they already knew it had moved?????

          Reply

          • The road they took on the UTVs to get out to the rescue was first, unsuccessfully, Sesame. But they couldn’t get through there, so they came back and went up Shrine. The dozer never was on Shrine.

            I doubt Frisby and Trew were even THINKING about the dozer when they were out looking for a way to find the deployment site.

            Reply

          • Bob Powers says

            Reply to Bob Powers post on June 17, 2015 at 8:21 am

            >> Bob Powers said…
            >>
            >> I also am surprised that the Lowboy was not on the road
            >> that the rescue UTV’s took to get out on the hill.

            That would have been the ‘Shrine Road’ up there on the north end of Yarnell, and not Lakewood or Manzanita down there in Glen Ilah.

            There is ZERO evidence of a Dozer ever being on Shrine Road.

            The only evidence we have that the Dozer got near that part of the world comes from the testimony of some of the FFs who were working in Harper Canyon.

            They say they dozer DID make it into Harper Canyon after finishing the ‘push’ towards the Youth Camp on that ‘Cutover Trail’.

            They say they were watching it try to ‘connect’ some line from that end of the ‘Cutover Trail’ over to where THEY were working ( with saws ) to build line in Harper Canyon… but the thing suddenly halted… reversed direction, and disappeared back down the Cutover Trail the way it had come.

            And they never got any explanation as to why that happened.

            If that was because of some kind of “You need to get the hell out of there” radio message being received by either dozer operator Paul Morin or the onboard DOAB Cory Ball… those other FFs said nobody ever bothered to give THEM the same warning.

            But as far as the LOBOY ever being anywhere on Shrine road… there is still ZERO evidence of that.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> I am assuming that is where the down power lines were.

            We actually still have no idea exactly where these ‘downed power lines’ were or how the dozer got entangled in them.

            It’s pretty much a given that these ‘downed power lines’ could NOT have been blocking access out to the Boulder Springs Ranch at any time following the deployment.

            Not long after the bodies were located… Todd Abel ( who was now the Granite Mountain Incident Within an Incident Commander ) was able to hightail it out to the BSR along with 3 or 4 other members of this newly formed IWI command team ( including now, we learn, his close friend Dean Stewart ( Steward ) ).

            Todd Abel reported NO PROBLEMS getting out there to the BSR in this post-deployment timeframe.

            He was able to get out there… then he was walked out to the deployment site and went “under the tape” and did his OWN body count.

            So exactly WHERE ( and WHEN ) these “downed power lines” ended up ‘entangling the dozer”… we still don’t know for sure.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> So the Dozer got there later You would think that Frisby
            >> would have gone to the last spot that the Dozer and
            >> LoBoy were at with the Chase truck.

            He tried.

            The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data for the post-deployment timeframe shows he and Trueheart Brown trying to do exactly that.

            They took off in the Ranger from the RHR parking lot and shot straight down Lakewood… but they STOPPED right there in about the middle of Glen Ilah where Manazanita intersects with Lakewood.

            They stopped at the exact same location where Cory Ball had taken some of his photographs after re-entering Glen Ilah on the ATV, sometime earlier than the launch of this ‘ground rescue mission’.

            It must have simply still been “too hot” to go any further west on Lakewood than that same intersection with Manazanita.

            Frisby and Brown ‘probed’ a few more ways to get to the west end of Glen Ilah… but then gave up, dashed up north to Shrine Road… and then eventually ‘broke through’ up there.

            >> Bob Powers also said…
            >>
            >> if they were still looking for it or they already
            >> knew it had moved?????

            I’m going to agree with Marti here and say that even though someone HAD put this dozer operator ( Paul Morin ) on the same “Missings Persons” list as Granite Mountain… that Frisby and Brown were NOT all that concerned about THAT guy.

            Only a few more interviews and a few more questions for Frisby and Brown could clear that up.

            Maybe they WERE *very* concerned about finding this ‘missing’ dozer guy as well as Granite Mountain.

            Maybe it was Blue Ridge Hotshot Cory Ball who told his own supervisor ( Brian Frisby or Trueheart Brown ) about this saga whereby he had been trying to “hook back up” with the dozer like SPGS1 Gary Cordes had told him to do… but that he wasn’t able to do it and then he totally lost track of the guy.

            Maybe it was then, in turn, Frisby or Brown who passed this on to “Incident Within an Incident” commander Todd Abel and he’s the one who added this ‘dozer guy’ to DPS Ranger 58’s search list.

            Lotta maybes in there, I know.

            But SOMEONE put that dozer guy on the ‘missings persons’ list.
            And SOMEONE passed that full list on to DPS chopper Ranger 58.

            Reply

  81. Reply to Marti Reed post on June 16, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    >> Marti said…
    >>
    >> The dozer that put in the line to the deployment wasn’t the second dozer.
    >> It was the same dozer as we have been talking about.

    Apparently so, yes.

    Obviously what we are now referring to as the ‘second dozer’ was the one that was ordered from May Machinery and, according to the time sheet, was being ‘operated’ by Mr. William May himself.

    What we are now referring to as the ‘first dozer’ was that one that Gary Cordes ordered at 2:15 AM Sunday morning and was the o