Please begin Chapter IX of the Yarnell Hill Fire discussion here. Once again, do not include more than one link in your comment in order to avoid the spam folder. Thank you, John
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII and Chapter VIII.
© Copyright 2014 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Joy and I attended the Yarnell Fire Board Group and are just back. It seems they were more intent on enforcing something that can not be legally enforced concerning state trespass laws than they are creating defensable space, looking at concerns regarding the loss of 40 lives since the fire and finding out what the circumstances really were that led up to the 19 GMHS deaths.
A number of Joy’s friends showed up to witness in case we got arrested–it did not happen. Even her husband was there to make bond if needed. The young fire chief stated he was only trying to comply with orders from upstairs, but he did not know that Joy had photographed many people that were on those state lands without legal passes, therefore breaking the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse these days eventhough there are 64000 and more on the books. But boys enforcing the law need to get them all down so they can deliver the facts to us hikers. Well it turns out Joy educated many of those that she had in the photo when they later wanted to hike with us–almost to a person they did not know that they had to have a pass to walk on their own public lands. Yes a $15 senior pass or $20 regular pass will get you on with us–we want to keep you out of jail and the exorbitant fine for that awful crime of walking on state or federal lands without giving the mordida (bite) as they call it in Mexico. Some think it is akin to a robber holding a gun on you so you can walk out there. The state will do that for you as well if you are not happy with their fee.
I did get in a thing about the 40 dying and so first did Joy. I was able to let the board know that 83%of that LC95A slurry fire retardant is ammonia nitrate that gives off a lung tissue killing gas and that 8% is chemicals that we have yet to know due to trade secret. I suggested that since they should have the clout to gain this information, and seeing that they are a fire board concerned with fire things including firemen’s health they ought to find out. Also factor in 40 deaths now since the fire in this little community, would it not be a good idea to contact EPA or the health bureaus to investigate the possible escalation in deaths to older citizens. One lady was very interested on the board and did write this down. Maybe it will help somebody–seeing the 6 page information report on LC95A states it has never been tested on animals or humans as to its effect on health. They just assume it is good stuff and the gasses and chemicals emitted by the drops are benign. Sounds like the same shit we heard when i was a uranium miner–low grade uranium does no harm–yet you can get a consolation prize for being a uranium miner for over 4 quarters of a hundred and fifity grand. It takes one of specific cancers, COPD, and other diseases to get it and up to ten years for approval so hopefully you can hang on against the disease until you get it. Most haven’t and those old miners i knew were mostly gone long ago from one cancer or another. Maybe these firemen need to know now what they breath, so they can have some chance of future retribution–if indeed as i belive they are–breathing dangerous chemicals.
Now back to the fire–Joy did post some more new photos a few days ago. What I saw looked like would be more help in resolving things.
The Discovery Channel guy did contact Joy just before we left–wanted her to report back on how it went at the fire board. Well I did not see much excitement there, but can bet they will lay off Joy after she laid out about six pages of maps, regulations and facts about how the law must be followed not only by us but by those that exercise the law as well.
It is amazing all this to me–I do admire you people here and how well you have been exposing these bumblers of the Yarnell fire.
I have to admit I did ask the FBI to step in and had presented a pretty good argument (at least in my own opinion) as to why they should. It took a long email to the Phoenix office–and one of the things i covered is the obvious cover up and omission of such things as that Bambi and Copter able to stop the fire or at least slow it for oncoming fire fighters that was told by the Honcho to stay put. Such things seem strange to me–also that a photo of two atv’s on the mountain right at the fire on Friday is in the hands of certain individuals–yet no investigator has ever bothered to contact those people with the photo or even ask who it is that has those photo’s.
Did Joy’s discovery of that bambi/copter photo and the fact that certain firemen on the job hear on radio that bosses told the copter pilots to stand down on Saturday morning piss someone off? Marti and Wants to Know the Truth dissected those photos as to what they were as well as time and date and location. The idea is that someone does not want the truth and nothing but the truth out and in my way of thinking only outside investigators will be able to get closure and satisfaction to the loved ones. There are lots of children out there without fathers now, mothers and dads without their sons. There are plenty of friends saddened by this tragedy So no matter how lightly those dissenters to outside investigators might be, this investigation will go on and no amount of harassment or intimidation will stop athose of us who whittle at the veil of whitewash we hve been fed.
John started Chapter X last night
Cool.
Packing my bags right now.
The direct ‘jump link’ to the new Chapter X ( TEN ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/
**
** EXIF METADATA CONTAINED IN THE FILES RECEIVED BY INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
The bad news: There are definitely TWO different video cameras involved but they both seem to be ‘older’ devices and there doesn’t seem to be any actual DEVICE information in the EXIF data that would specifically identify them.
The good news: There is ENOUGH data there to figure it out what devices they really were.
Also some more bad news… the first three videos have some TIMESTAMP information in them… but the more important ‘Helmet Cam’ videos do NOT.
** THE FIRST THREE VIDEOS
The following piece of EXIF data actually dates the camera.
This version C.S0050-0 V1.0 of the 3GP video format dates back to 2003…
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
The following field seems to verify the AGE of this device as circa 2003 since it ONLY lists a 3GPP ‘compatibility’ mode with the older V1.0 version. If it was a more modern 3GPP capable device it would be listing additional ‘Compatible Brands’ like ‘3g2b’ and ‘3g2c’. ( in addition to the early 3g2a version )…
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
There is a ‘Current Time’ data field in this version of 3GPP, but as you well see below… either this device wasn’t updating it or that time-stamping feature for videos had been turned OFF.
** FILENAMES TAMPERED WITH?
Something really strange is going on with the ‘Media Create Dates’ versus the filenames that are appearing for these 3 files.
Here are the actual ‘Media Create Date’ timestamps embedded in these files… and the length of time BETWEEN them…
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131532.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131533.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46 ( +66 seconds )
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131534.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07 ( +81 seconds )
This timestamp information does NOT match a possible device file naming sequence of…
0630131532.3g2
0630131533.3g2
0630131534.3g2
According to the device clock… it was 22:32:34 when the first video was ‘created’ ( 10:32:34 PM ).
We certainly know it wasn’t 10 PM in the evening… but even then the ‘minute sequence’ is off from reality.
The ‘minute value’ for the first two files matches ( 32 and 33 )… but according to the device itself the third filename should have had a ’35’ minute value instead of ’34’.
It’s late in the evening here.
More about all this later.
Here are some EXIF data ‘dumps’ from the files in the Dropbox…
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131532.3g2
File Name: 0630131532.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 407900
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.80 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.80 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.80 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 110 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131533.3g2
File Name: 0630131533.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 411029
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.92 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.87 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.92 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 110 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131534.3g2
File Name: 0630131534.3g2
File Size: 400 kB
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 406487
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.73 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.73 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.72 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 109 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** THE HELMET CAM VIDEOS ( The M2Uxxxxx.MPG files )
Now that we know the ACTUAL ( original ) file extension for the M2Uxxxxx files was .MPG ( and not .MP4 ) that pretty much proves Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Camera’ had to be some kind of SONY based device.
Perhaps an older Sony HandyCam or Sony MiniCam.
There really isn’t much information there on initial inspection… but there *might* be more.
Stay tuned.
** EXIF metadata contained in M2U00269.MPG
File Name: M2U00269.MPG
File Size: 14 MB
File Type: MPEG
MIME Type: video/mpeg
MPEG Audio Version: 1
Audio Layer: 1
Audio Bitrate: 160 kbps
Sample Rate: 44100
Channel Mode: Joint Stereo
Mode Extension: Bands 4-31
Copyright Flag: True
Original Media: True
Emphasis: CCIT J.17
Image Width: 720
Image Height: 480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9, 625 line, PAL
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Video Bitrate: 9.1 Mbps
Duration: 12.91 s (approx)
Image Size: 720×480
** EXIF metadata contained in M2U00268.MPG
File Name: M2U00268.MPG
File Size: 41 MB
File Type: MPEG
MIME Type: video/mpeg
MPEG Audio Version: 1
Audio Layer: 1
Audio Bitrate: 160 kbps
Sample Rate: 44100
Channel Mode: Joint Stereo
Mode Extension: Bands 4-31
Copyright Flag: True
Original Media: True
Emphasis: CCIT J.17
Image Width: 720
Image Height: 480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9, 625 line, PAL
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Video Bitrate: 9.1 Mbps
Duration: 0:00:36 (approx)
Image Size: 720×480
Hmmm
Maybe start here:
Sony – Cyber-Shot Shock+Waterproof Camera Orange+32GB+Helmet+Handlebar Mounts+Batt+Case+Flex Tripod+Acc Kit – Orange
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cyber-shot-shock-waterproof-camera-orange-32gb-helmet-handlebar-mounts-batt-case-flex-tripod-acc-kit-orange/1311290807.p?id=mp1311290807&skuId=1311290807
Their “action cams” don’t zoom.
But this one does. And it’s optical zoom. And Sony uses Carl Zeiss lenses. The very best. That would explain what I was seeing in the first M2U video.
But no remote. He would have had to operate this by hand.
Just looked at 69. It’s the same length as the YouTube version.
More videos have been uploaded now.
Thanks, JD!!
OK, back to bed. I just got up bcuz of a sneezing attack.
Thanks, WTKTT!
Hmmm.
That 2003 GP3 really is a stumper.
I thought GP3 was associated with GoPros. Guess not.
Correction It’s 3GP
Big learning curve for me here.
Maybe it IS a flip cellphone?
Marti digs back thru the cobwebs in her mind to try to even remember what her first cellphone was (it didn’t take pictures) after learning that 3GP didn’t start with GroPros, but with 3G networks.
2002
“Nokia 7650
This was the first Nokia set to feature a built-in camera and was featured in the movie Minority Report.”
From “THE EVOLUTION OF CELL PHONE DESIGN BETWEEN 1983-2009”
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/05/the-evolution-of-cell-phone-design-between-1983-2009/
OK Now I REALLY need to go back to bed.
So Aaron was, possibly, actually shooting with an antique cellphone?
(This, if in fact it is the case, in no way substantiates what our counselor said about how fire fighter crews use old cellphones because they can’t afford anything newer. ) I’ve seen WAY too many firefighter videos to believe that.)
Confession.
My Melita Drip Coffee Maker/Carafe is over 27 years old.
I wouldn’t even think of using anything else.
**
** What InvestigativeMEDIA actually received from the US Forestry Service
IM has just now posted a link to exact copies of what it actually received from the US Forestry Service in response to the original FOIA request for ‘Prescott National Forest’ employee video(s).
The new IM article about this is here…
InvestigativeMEDIA posts first set of Forest Service videos
November 17, 2014 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/investigativemedia-posts-first-set-of-forest-service-videos/
The direct link to the online Dropbox that contains the 12 videos ( out of a total of 21 ) that have been uploaded so far is as follows…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ipv8to6ih7gmzbq/AAC82U3UuheEtc8GPHFn91vea?dl=0
The uploading is ongoing and not yet completed… but there are at least 12 complete videos already in the Dropbox… including the first THREE of the burnout operation up on Model Creek Road.
Thanks!
There’s a bunch more there now.
When I heard the statement who “knew” the men “the answers died with the 19″…it just stuck to me…
I say to anyone who thinks all the answers died with them.
PLAY GOD. PAY THE PRICE.
SOME of ‘the answers’ probably did… but certainly not ALL… as the United States Forestry Service, Arizona Forestry, and officials/employees of the City of Prescott would like us to believe.
Even just 9 days ago… the United States Forestry Service and Arizona Forestry proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they have ALWAYS been ‘withholding’ crucial evidence about what really happened that day from both the families of the poor men who lost their lives AND from the people charged ( by law ) with officially investigating this tragic incident.
You have to wonder, then… what else is still being ‘withheld’… and what ‘answers’ lie ahead?
Recently Bob Powers used 2 words that struck me “STRICK CONFIDENCE” and when we began the hikes we explained ANYONE reaching out to us from June 30 2013 until January 2014 that anything they said to us would not be kept in strick confidence because I just did not want to juggle who said what and what not to say since we were bombarded by so many avenues from locals to firefighting/smokejumper community to investigators/media/radio/djs/authors/journalists to loved ones of the GMHS to total strangers to retired military/cia/federal folks to meteorologists to botanists to high up command current and retired of wildland fire community to fire wardens current and retired to state and city and county officials again current and retired so our list is very very lengthy of incoming communications. I have some information and I can only state that at this date but remember this date because when it comes out I just want everyone to know how God has guided this all and boy do I wish I can share even the tiniest detail yet all I can say it is in regards to who God shared to us without us even looking and how it is still amazes me how God’s time is slower than I would of thought on the topic of the YHF when there is still living beings that were on that fire and homeowners that if they just shared their accounts and footage…I finally learned to trust the One who knows all things and accept that some questions may never be answered. I just hope in this YHF; we witness from seed-time to HARVEST. I can share this week a local asked me HOW COME I never posted on here about the flair a homeowner saw at 4:35pm from the area of the Helm’s (THE BOX CANYON) and the homeowner did not know how come it was never mentioned in the SAIR and I explained it was a solo account said in front of other locals but to this date I have not yet heard another account so I never posted about it because I work on some how trailing back to source/footage. I will not say something on JD’s page unless it is what it is…I think of the children in all this and as they grow or currently old enough and read this that I am saying all I can for the fatherless. I know it is OFF TRACK but the whales do not have a voice but there are current strong activists saving the whales from poachers so I just am trying to keep checking every possible area we can and really I did not get local’s cd yet but did learn one is on vacation for 2 weeks with her daughter and my hopes is the Holidays does not envelop her time and have to wait for the new year. Yet it will cover the areas of Model Creek Road/Monica Mine and mountain top views. Also John last night at Barb’s now knows what we are looking for and he will get the word out. I passed out today so I am online to order some labs. I had a forehead blood gusher and I have no clue how long I was out. I am feeling woozy. Today they are having MEET THE ARTIST at the Yarnell Library with Chuck Tidey and his art. Surrounded by many folks are the MOVE ON JOY/LET THE FIRE AND MEN GO…you would think if a certain GMHS loved one had her hand in their ideas nowadays—either way Bob Powers is right. I did tell everyone if you tell me something let it be something I can repeat but I do know certain current firefighter community are not in fear of their career as much as they fear the change that may happen from them coming forward because it may not just affect their career but too many…I gotta go. Head hurts. Sonny is typing away and I printed my labs and ordering more so some time I hope to look more into this page yet I do SUPPORT a new chapter!
I happened to peruse the info on a GoPro package while in the store yesterday, and while that particular device will not zoom, it will go from wide view to narrow view, which under certain conditions could sort of mimic a zoom.
I took a quick look through some of the videos to see if I could find any zooming going on, and I didn’t see any in the places I looked. If any of you are familiar with the locations of any zooms, you might want to double check to make sure the camera wasn’t just going from wide to narrow, or vice versa.
Thanks! Good catch! Will look!
I DID look for zooming, and found it.
Will go back and look to see if it’s zooming or “shifting”
Just going from “wide” to “narrow” wouldn’t change the focal length or the appearance of that. Maybe it’s like a digital zoom where it crops the whole frame, which is what cellphones do. making it look like a zoom.
To make a cellphone really zoom, you have to get an additional lens. Making and selling those has been quite a cottage industry.
OK. I looked at M2U00261.
He’s definitely zoomng in and out. It’s a gradual thing, zooming in and out..
http://youtu.be/41IHV2FE5CE?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
You are correct, no question about it in this video. THX!
Thank you, Marti.
I would say that pretty much rules out a ‘smartphone’ device as well.
Not to worry… we are GOING to find out what camera(s) Hulburd was using and what the FULL story is on this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS.
One step at a time… swings of the axe.
So I just looked at the video again.
The zoom is very smooth and the resolution also seems quite good. And he’s really pushing it.
Looks more like optical zoom than digital zoom.
I haven’t youtubed to look at the Drift cameras. I think I will tonight.
And it’s also really quiet.
Ugh. Watching these videos about the drift is making me salivate.
Unfortunately, i’ve now looked at lots of Drift videos, and so far the zoom is not really used a lot. They’re mostly featuring lots of other things in which the zoom function isn’t really used.
Remember, you wrote on October 19, 2014 at 11:58 PM:
“Something tells me the already scheduled November 17 ‘ADOSH findings challenge review’ might play into the timing here.”
Welcome to today, everybody!!
BrainMistake Alert
It was WTKTT who wrote that, not TTWARE.
The important thing is:
It’s TODAY.
There actually is no regularly scheduled AOSHA (public) meeting for today.
We’ve never been quite where even Mr. Dougherty got that date but I’m also sure Mr. Dougherty has many contacts he trusts there in Arizona.
As per the following ADOSH link…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_agendas_page.aspx
…the LAST public meeting was November 13… and the NEXT scheduled public meeting is November 20.
The ‘minutes’ for the last November 13 meeting have not been published yet, but I would imagine if any decision was made at that meeting we have heard about by now.
It’s going to be an MSM ( Mainstream Media ) event, no matter what the decision is.
I am ASSUMING that this consideration about whether they should even consent to a review of their previous findings will show up on the agenda for one of their public meetings… because that’s what normally happens.
This certainly isn’t the first time ADOSH has issued fines against an Arizona employer and they have ‘contested’ them and requested a ‘review of the findings’.
There are plenty of OTHER past ‘minutes’ records for ADOSH where they discussed such ‘review requests’ in an open and transparent manner.
I do NOT know how ADOSH plans on handling this one.
It MIGHT all be ‘under the covers’ instead of in the ‘public’ agenda or minutes, like they have done in the past.
We shall see.
I believe the ADOSH findings will ultimately stand… exactly the way Marshall Krotenberg and his staff published them in the first place.
That was a ‘seriously screwed up’ workplace that entire weekend.
I’m sure AZCentral has their antennae turned on.
The Administrative Law Judge has rescheduled the hearing (Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health of The Industrial Commission of Arizona vs. Arizona State Forestry Division/State of Arizona) related to the Yarnell Hill Fire to July 8, 2015 at 9:30 a.m.
Wow.
Thank you, John.
Was any REASON given why someone thinks they now need another NINE MONTHS for this?
I also wonder who REQUESTED such a long extension.
Arizona Forestry?… or ADOSH?
This is itself newsworthy.
And I think the public has a right to know what’s going on here.
I doubt that Mr. Dougherty is making up the following ‘mouthful’…
(Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health of The Industrial Commission of Arizona vs. Arizona State Forestry Division/State of Arizona)
Sounds very much like the (full) official title of a duly filed court document.
I can find no such case filing in any law system I have access to, and no recent announcements about this rescheduling anywhere on the InterWeb.
Lazer head-cam camcorder”
“1st Lazer camcorder head-cam on youtube”
Published on Feb 12, 2013
“This is the first Lazer head-cam camcorder on youtube includes a Macro Zoom lens
“for close up”.Lazer and Zoom 1:15,Macro mode 1:35. The camera has a red lazer pointer to help you stay in frame with your subject when filming from head-cam.Camera has 8x Zoom and optical lens for macro mode
New Optical lens offers a higher performance lens than that of the Gopro’s lens”
http://youtu.be/-qMIbgLw4oo
I can’t really find anything about this camera on the google, other than this video, so I’m thinking he may be spelling/naming something incorrectly.
The big diff between this cam and the Drift cams is that this one has optical zoom rather than digital zoom, which the Drift cams use.
I haven’t had time to go back and really look at the videos to see if I can tell which type of zoom is in them. Digital zoom is really just cropping, so you lose resolution. Optical would keep the resolution and thus have better image quality.
Gotta go get some other stuff done. So have at it!
I just wanted to get a bead on about what cams are out there that have the features Aaron seems to be using.
Drift Innovation HD170 Stealth Action Camera with HD Recording, 4x Digital Zoom and 1.5-Inch LCD Screen (Black)
RF remote turns camera on and off while on your helmet or outside your vehicle. Saves batteries, memory and edit time
Night mode for optimal low-light performance. Digital 4X zoom
Ability to shoot in 60 frames per second for buttery smooth, professional quality slow motion video
The Drift HD170 Stealth is the worlds first sports action camera which films in full 1080p HD and has a built-in playback LCD screen and remote control. This rugged water resistant camera is the first camera that gives people what they want from an Action Camera.
Maximum Video Resolution: 1080p High Definition
SD Memory Capacity: up to 32GB
Digital Zoom: Digital x4 (in 720p/30/60fps & WVGA mode)
Lens Angle: 170° Fully Rotatable Wide Angle Lens
LCD Screen: 1.5″ Colour TFT
Water Resistant
Remote Control: Wireless RF (5m range) Hands Free Video and Photo
Audio: Built-in Microphone & Speaker
Menus: User Friendly Control Panel in 15 Languages
http://www.amazon.com/Drift-Innovation-Stealth-Recording-1-5-Inch/dp/B004L5AF4Q
I think, after reading the customer reviews, I might be willing to bet dollars to donuts this is it.
The remote clinched it for me, in the end.
That’s the older model.
Here”s the new smaller lighter one. Looks like they fixed the problems the customer reviews on the older one were describing
Drift HD Camera
http://www.amazon.com/Drift-Definition-Helmet-Action-Camera/dp/B005H2RDK6/ref=dp_ob_title_ce
If I were into headcam video, I”d scarf this baby up today. It’s 42% off — $174.00
Also:
DRIFT HD GHOST-S DIGITAL VIDEO ACTION CAMERA CAMCORDER
http://www.amazon.com/GHOST-S-DIGITAL-ACTION-CAMERA-CAMCORDER/dp/B00GJRCPRO/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Great stuff, Marti.
BTW… I did an extensive search ( believe me, extensive ) online for ANY other videos that might have been posted out there ANYWHERE that could be associated with Aaron Hulburd.
I found nothing.
There were even other photos taken by Christopher MacKenzie that were sitting online that allowed us to pretty much identify his camera before we ever got to see the EXIF data from his June 30, 2013 photos…
…but in this case ( for Aaron Hulburd )… I don’t see anything else ‘sitting out there’.
I did too. Same results.
A lot of crews use their videos to post on youtube for various purposes.
Blue Ridge doesn’t. Apparently neither do these guys.
Aaron probably uses his footage for in-house educational stuff, not for fun or advertising or public education.
Lets all move on I for one would rather bring any small information to this investigation and put it out to find additional input,
Some of us here have valuable contacts with the Families, FS, BLM, and Arizona Wild land Fire Fighters.
Some of these very people have given us information in strict confidence. Those that attack that information are only chasing those people back into the closet. People that would or could come forward are left with apprehension that they will as well be attacked.
Yes both RTS and I have contacts in the Fire community RTS being in and still working with Arizona FF’s is much closer to information than any of us. Those that contact us are yes afraid of loosing there jobs.
The Info we both got was key to IM John requesting the Videos. Wow New Revolution—-
IM knew about the Videos because RTS and I were contacted and the information given.
We knew there would be some skepticism here. Joy and Sonny who both live in the area confirmed that people had reviewed some new video information. That was being passed around.
So the additional information both RTS and I have indicates there is more to the Videos than was released we herd that and some other info that this may not be the only Video with info on it.
Did the video get shown in its entirety?
Did the video only get shown to a select few?
Was the Video we got only a part of the whole?
Some of the information out there says that the last part of the video showing the deployment scene was requested to be removed before it was released.
Dose that tell you some one or ones reviewed the Videos prior to release?
There are a lot of unanswered questions still lurking in the mist.
Why were the Videos not shown to the Families and Lawyers before they were released?
I rest my case at this point and hope that some one out there will contact John Dougherty with
more information to break this wide open…………………..
Thanks to all who have given me confidential information know your Identities are still safe.
.
Exactly Bob–Too many are afraid of loosing their jobs for revealing what they know. Finding new evidence has been a slow going process because of those fears.
The last photos we gave out had to be in strict confidence for source. That person we gave appreciation to was happy that her photos may have helped. You see there are just too many cronies in this area with significant power over peoples lives to scare them. Still, Joy has been able to convince a few that their photos are important no matter how insignificant they are.
I thought there might be enough evidence out there to bring in a proper federal investigation but perhaps more is needed. Wouldn’t the deaths of 19 men beg for it considering the circumstances? Well we will continue searching for more.
A sad thing is that certain people with money and clout have a lot of information they do not share. Sharing on this forum expose the data to a multitude of savvy people and some with exceptional analytical skills. Joy in blowing up many of these photos had discovered some details that otherwise have been overlooked. She noticed that the initial count radioed in came to 18? That leaves questions as to whether another body was found later in another location away from the others. Of course the excuse will be that in the haste and excitement there was a miscount. Possible but considering all the other actions in this investigation we wonder.
Dr. Ted. Putman says that bodies should never be moved in haste since it takes away information that might be vital to understanding the real cause. We do not know how well that was handled here but hopefully it was done properly.
There are people here of good repute that told Joy and I that the dispatcher for the Yarnell fire department was instructed to shred records. We were told that the local fire department has witnesses that saw an argument as to whether to put the fire out or let it go until it grew into greater proportions so that crews could go to work. Considering the source of this information, I wonder why this is not investigated.
Again certain reputable people have told us that they have photos of two yellow and white ATV’s right at the fire on the evening lightening supposedly started this fire. Little has been said about this and I wonder why someone from government has not jumped on this information like bees on honey.
Maybe they have? If so we do not know and I personally do not have the clout to get them to do that. Maybe a Bob Powers or a John Daugherty or a mayor Kueykendahl could, Our friend, Charley Mosely, CIA operative and before a smioke jumper has sadly passed since the fire. He would have known what was necessary for such investigation and I hope there might be some other concerned firefighter with such high qualifications in the process to get honest answers which I believe will only come from an outside source such as the FBI.
I see that too many people are hiding evidence for selfish reasons, fear, or comraderie. Shame on them since their information is needed by the loved ones and not least because the full truth of this incident will save future lives.
I back Joy 100% on her efforts, but she is ill. The doctors tell her she has throat, tung and cancer tumors throughout her body. Yet she keeps plodding on in spite of doctors who want her in their clutches as soon as possible.
Something I am going to do now–we learned that from Show low a firefighter whom has only been on the fires for a couple years and is a young man has come down with a deadly cancer. Is there something in that agent orange fire retardant being used that the chemical companies are not telling us about? When I worked the Uranium mines they assured us that that low level radiation would not harm us. Yet nearly every Uranium miner I know has come down with one cancer or another. I myself have had a melanoma removed. You see, we are often lied to so that these big companies make their profits or because a government needs another atom bomb to wave at its enemies. Sadly that is the way the world works until people unite to protest.
Don’t be weak and fearful–put the information out even if you have to be anonymous to save your life.
Thank you good ones for keeping at this thing. Doing a good thing is always good for the soul.
also not the man was 100% in PERFECT health before graduating in 2012 to be a EMT/Firefighter.
People in the field new should keep a close eye on your blood labs before entering…fight some fires and see where you are at after fighting the fires.
Very good point!
What are they using out there to fight the fires nowadays…stuff to eventually kill their own men with insidious diseases. What is in that slurry drop.
I will be alright Sonny. Yet that was a forehead boo boo time today. I ordered proper labs to get proper answers.
Thank You to everybody who sweated out this past difficult week, trying to stay focused in spite of all the insanity provided by the United States Forest Service, the Arizona Department of Forestry, and the esteemed Law Professor.
And thank you to Aaron Hulburd who both captured the important videos we have been discussing all week and risked his life to do so while attempting, through fire and brimstone, to save the lives of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
This is not a game.
Namaste
Elizabeth wrote ( in response to Method )…
>> When the USDA (which is the “parent” organization over the USFS) “redacted”
>> (or blurred) parts of the videos with the “R” in the name, the USDA had to save
>> those videos (the ones with the”R” in the names) in NEW file formats (as, say, Mp4
>> instead of whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video originally),
If you are NOT lying about having ‘original byte-for-byte copies’ of the same material that was released last Saturday by USFS ( via Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel )… then just look at the EXIF metadata for the 18 files that the USFS insists were not redacted in any way.
Right there… you will see this ‘whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video’.
Then tell us what that ‘original format’ actually was for ANY of those other ‘unredacted’ videos.
If you can’t do that… then you don’t have ‘original byte-for-byte copies’ of the material…
…and that means you are a LIAR.
I think we just wasted a large chunk of yesterday.
Trying to chase down another, as TTWARE warned, red herring.
I’m moving on. I suggest we all do.
Her little games are just not worth our time. Seriously.
I don’t think she even knows what “exif metadata” is, or how to go about finding it. Seriously.
That’s why I made the comment about her comment about the flipphone videos.
If she had any clue whatsoever about what she was talking about, she would never have written that comment.
She thinks it’s a game.
Marti… you are right.
This is all just ‘games’ and ‘noise’ coming from her.
I thought you would catch the irony of what I posted above.
If she has ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of any videos… she doesn’t even need to look at the EXIF data.
She can just look at the file extension to see what ‘original FORMAT’ these videos are in.
.MOV, AVI, 3GP, etc, etc.
The EXIF data would just simply be telling you MORE about it.
She doesn’t have what she claims to have.
She’s a liar.
Oh, right!
Thanks!
I was too busy chasing actioncams with zooms, I hadn’t even thought about that.
Plus I just don’t do enough video to be handily thinking about that.
Although I do appreciate the fact that her inane questions about the wind compelled me to sit down and really think about that and write what I wrote about the weather and the fire and the topography on this fire.
I really needed to do that.
So there’s that.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Once again, I ALLEGE that you PROVE yourself to be a LIAR, DEVIOUS, VENOMOUS, with hidden agendas and so much more, with your despicable attitudes and behaviors. WHY do you continue to persist in this manner? You accuse others of what YOU yourself are responsible for and YOU yourself are doing on a regular basis. You are the CONSUMMATE HYPOCRITE! Who do you think you are anyway? Were you an only child and this is the only way you can get the attention you so desperately need? You are SO far off base on almost everything you post anymore, full of lies, falsehoods, and half-truths and then some. You are definitely setting a new standard for Law Professors. And your pattern is SO predicable as well. This latest one with you claiming to have all the original videos is an all-time classic though, and may top the Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy charts. A new zenith in Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy lies and hypocrisy! Please crawl back into your hole or into your web.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
“You are definitely setting a new standard for Law Professors.”
Perfect.
Thank you for putting my exact thoughts into words.
I am completely appalled.
I have never known any Law Professors.
I have known, however, and awesome New Mexico State Supreme Court Judge.
She would have been completely appalled by this, also, I am sure.
RTS,
You may be pulling your punches a little bit. How many times has Elizabeth Nowicki shared information on this comment board that had been given to her privately? I don’t recall your ever having given her permission to use your name, for instance, but she did. She seemingly repeated, on here, details of private communications between the two of you, I believe again without your permission. That kind of failure to exercise normal rules of social courtesy as regards communications made in confidence would be poor behavior from someone working a fast food counter, but is incredibly poor in my opinion coming from an attorney.
Agree.
SR,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it very much. I certainly AM ‘pulling my punches’ by trying to do the right thing and be as ‘sensitive’ as I can to the Black Widow Spider (BWS) Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy. It appalls me, yet does NOT surprise me that she is doing all this and behaving in the childish, yet devious manner that she is. Once again, she has set a new standard for Law Professors. This especially includes violating confidential matters by openly exposing to the world what was written in confidence between two agreeable (at the time) parties. She did NOT have my permission to expose any of what she has spewed forth. Her actions are the epitome of BASIC legal professionalism and BASIC common courtesy just thrown in your face.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
SR,
Clarification. It should read “Her actions are the epitome of VIOLATIONS of BASIC legal professionalism and BASIC common courtesy just thrown in your face.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
At 4:12 PM today, November 16, 2014,
The counselor and Law Professor, Elizabeth, wrote the following, regarding the original files of Aaron Hulburd’s extremely important video collection:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
Sorry, counselor and Law Professor.
All things considered, I don’t believe for a second you are in possession of what you claim, here, to be.
FAIL
Apparently, since the Law Professor is, seemingly, unable/unwilling to answer the fundamental question I asked her at 5:17 PM today:
“What cameras was Aaron using?”
…which would corroborate her ASTONISHING (all things considered) claim at 4:23 PM today that:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
and thus prove her credibility;
having, instead, prioritized attacking Bob Powers,
I rest my case that the said Law Professor appears to be more committed to her personal agenda (whatever that is),
than the search for TRUTH regarding both the videos in question, which are extremely important (to the point of being FOIA’d), and, therefore the TRUTH regarding this devastating wildfire and its subsequent investigations.
Marti… there are only two possibilities here.
1) The person commenting here known as ‘Elizabeth’ is telling the truth, and she did receive original byte-for-byte copies of material that USFS has in their possession at some unknown time prior to the orchestrated public release of information last Saturday, and the fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request a few days after that.
2) She is lying.
** IF (1) is TRUE
Then we actually owe her some thanks. She has done nothing but prove that everything we have been saying here all along is TRUE and she has automatically justified the thoughts, postings and information that regularly appears here on this forum.
But she has also gone further.
She has just basically provided PROOF that the US Forestry Service may have just violated Federal Law.
Here is what Mr. John Dougherty has already said publicly about what he received as a (supposed) valid ‘response’ to his legal FOIA request…
——————————————————————
Investigative MEDIA
Article: Forest Service releases Yarnell Hill Fire videos to InvestigativeMEDIA
November 12, 2014 By John Dougherty
The U.S. Forest Service has released to InvestigativeMEDIA the same set of Yarnell Hill Fire videos the Arizona Forestry Division posted on its website on Saturday, Nov. 8.
InvestigativeMEDIA filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the videos on Oct. 13. There is no indication that the Arizona Forestry Division filed a separate Freedom of Information Act request for the documents. The Forest Service has not provided an explanation of why the Forestry Division received the videos prior to InvestigativeMEDIA. The division states it received the videos on Nov. 7.
————————————————————————–
The letter of fulfillment that was received by InvestigativeMEDIA was directly from…
Tom Harbour – US Forest Service – Director of Fire and Aviation Management,
The key sentence is…
“The U.S. Forest Service has released to InvestigativeMEDIA the SAME set of Yarnell Hill Fire videos the Arizona Forestry Division posted on its WEBSITE on Saturday, Nov. 8”.
THOSE files ( the ones Arizona Forestry has posted on their website / YouTube channel ) are in no way ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of the requested material, as are legally required to be provided in response to valid FOIA requests.
If Elizabeth DID receive MORE than that, or DIFFERENT, more complete versions of the same material in response to HER FOIA request(s)… then she has just proved that the US Forestry Service is ‘picking and choosing’ how to fulfill valid, legal FOIA requests… depending on WHO is making the request.
That’s illegal.
She would deserve ‘thanks again’ for now supplying public testimony that the US Forestry Service may have just committed a punishable offense.
I am sure some media outlets will follow up on this. It would be a big story, if true.
** IF (2) is TRUE ( That she is simply a liar )
Then I, for one, would respectfully request that she never post to this ongoing discussion again.
She now has an opportunity to PROVE whether it’s ‘door number (1)’ or ‘door number (2).
I hope she avails herself of the opportunity.
Exactly.
That’s part of the reason I used the term “astonishing” to describe her claim, which she seems so completely either unable or unwilling to corroborate.
Dear JD~
Can we Freds pleeze haz a new chapter?
Pretty Pleeze?
I know you must be really, really busy, given all this insanity surrounding the USFS –> Arizona Forestry Inc. release of the (cough cough) Aaron Hulburd videos, and I really appreciate all you do.
However, it’s really getting hard to type and post comments here.
Thank you in advance!
Signed,
Moi
I second the request.
This ‘chapter’ is already too large for it to completely load on a number of mobile devices.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 16, 2014 at 1:20 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions
>> whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE
>> are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they
>> not already provided?”
>>
>> They WERE already provided.
To who?
The material sitting on YouTube is by no means byte-for-byte copies of the originals.
If they were… we would be seeing all the original EXIF metatdata in the files.
We are NOT.
Mr. Dougherty has indicated that the material he has received on a DVD that is also supposed to be a valid (legal) fulfillment of his original FOIA request is nothing more than the same YouTube videos linked to on the Arizona Forestry website prior to the fullfillment of his request.
I would HOPE they actually sent Mr. Dougherty valid, legal, byte-for-byte copies of the material they have in their possession ( as they are supposed to )… but it doesn’t sound like that happened.
I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.
Fabulous!
What cameras was Aaron using?
The campfire circle waits with baited breath.
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 16, 2014 AT 6:01 PM
One would think a Law Professor would_____________________________
(Instructions: Fill in the blank section above the line.)
One Possible Answer:
Answer the obvious question that would prove he/she is telling the truth, instead of diverting it by attacking somebody else.
Oh, wait a minute……
Maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point”
“What I DID say to you, Bob Powers, is that the lies and rumors you have repeatedly posted here are concerning. For example, some of your more recent lies or rumors are: the families had all previewed the videos…”
Still seeking submissions.
Marti, if you haven’t noticed, I am not putting up videos that I have re the YHF on youtube any more. But I imagine that John Dougherty will do it if you e-mail him and ask him politely.
Sorry, counselor.
That doesn’t answer my question.
Which, if you truly are in possession of what you say you are in possession of, you should easily be able to answer.
I would think a Law Professor would easily understand that.
Another possible answer.
Answer the obvious question that would prove he/she is telling the truth, instead of diverting it by sharing what somebody else may or may not have in their possession.
Oh wait, maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point:
“Marti, if you haven’t noticed, I am not putting up videos that I have re the YHF on youtube any more. But I imagine that John Dougherty will do it if you e-mail him and ask him politely.”
Another possible answer.
Be able to successfully demonstrate how to be cross-examined, especially when one’s credibility is being questioned.
Oh wait, maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point:
Crickets in response to the $64,000 question.
Tap Tap Tap
Still waiting for the answer to the $64,000 question.
Apparently, since our counselor, the esteemed Law Professor is, seemingly, unable/unwilling to answer the fundamental question I asked her at 5:17 PM (two and a half hours ago):
“What cameras was Aaron using?”
…which would corroborate her claim at 4:23 PM (almost three and a half hours ago) that started this whole thread:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
and thus prove her credibility;
having, instead, prioritized attacking Bob Powers,
I rest my case that our counselor, the esteemed Law Professor, appears to be more committed to her personal agenda (whatever that is),
than the search for TRUTH regarding both the videos in question, which are extremely important (to the point of being FOIA’d), and, therefore the TRUTH regarding this devastating wildfire and its subsequent investigations.
Correction.
I should have written:
“…which would corroborate her astonishing claim at 4:23 PM (almost three and a half hours ago) that started this whole thread:
Because that claim is, indeed ASTONISHING, all things considered.
One would think a Law Professor, when making an ASTONISHING claim, all things considered, would understand the necessity of PROVING that claim, all things considered.
Evidently you have not bothered to check any thing.
You bet the Farm that the whole thing on the Videos was rumors.
and you lost………..Now you have no information no contacts that have any thing
but your still in a hole attempting to impress WHO????????????????
No one here cares.
Same time replies nice Marti
I swore I had rested my case.
But. I. Just. Couldn’t. Resist.
Bob, just to clarify, I never said there were no further videos. I, actually, have long been aware of them (or actually in possession of them).
My point to you was that, contrary to your adamant contentions that these videos were going to reveal an argument between Steed and Marsh, I knew that they wouldn’t. I also made the point – correctly – that you and Fred Schoeffler were wrong about the families having viewed the videos. And you and Fred were wrong about ADOSH somehow having anything to do with the videos. And you and Fred were starting rumors – that were wrong – about Brendan having been deposed. All of that was wrong…. and I was CORRECT that you and Fred Schoeffler were getting all of that wrong.
Good try, though, Bob. Good try.
So now you are saying you have had these videos for some time that were just released. Now I have herd every thing You lie to make your self the outstanding investigator of all time.
A few days ago you said there were no additional Videos and we were just creating rumors.
Good luck on all that BS
Bob, I NEVER said there were no more videos – I knew that there were, and I know that there are actually more still, which I reached out to JD regarding (because I obviously have largely given up posting stuff publicly, although I still e-mail materials to people who want them privately).
What I DID say to you, Bob Powers, is that the lies and rumors you have repeatedly posted here are concerning. For example, some of your more recent lies or rumors are: the families had all previewed the videos that the AZFD just posted last weekend, ADOSH was somehow involved, the videos showed an argument between Steed and Marsh, Brendan was deposed. You remember those lies, right, Bob? THOSE were the things with which I was disagreeing.
I never denied that Hulburd (and others) had more video, because most of us already KNEW that for a fact. Indeed, there are more videos still, beyond the ones that I am assuming JD has recently received (although none that I know of (or already have) are Hulburd’s other than the ones already made public).
Elizabeth Some one like you calls me a Liar.
Who the F**K do you think you are????
The argument is on the redacted info/Notes
and on a copied video from one of the GM crew that was mailed to a family member I was Told. The Statements from Dudley confirm The argument
I have nothing more to say to a total F**King Moron .
Bob, don’t waste your valuable emotional energy.
I’m cross-examing her.
Come join the fun!
Start with my questionnaire!
Hint.
Look upstream.
I’m not sure she’s capable of being cross-examined, though.
Hmmmmmmm.
One would think a Law Professor would know how to do that.
Maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
I wish I had the ability to pull up past postings for Elizabeth
Look at what Elizabeth poster to me on Nov. 8th @1133 am
In short—- there are no new videos and I was just starting RUMMERS Dam Counselor you better check what you say before you attack people for the truth.
That was just before all the Videos were released and you started becoming a fool. Now you state you knew all about them. You are a total and complete fool who has lost her worth here…………
Bob, what I said was this:
“Bob Powers and Fred Schoeffler said the helmet camera was going to be released by ADOSH days ago. But yet it is not here. Before you start rumors, guys, do your research first, ok?”
And that was TRUE. Not a damn thing came from ADOSH, which everyone who knew about those videos (which did not include either you or Fred, it seems) obviously knew.
I also said “as best I can tell, there is zero validity to the rumor Bob and Fred keep trying to start that Brendan has some big secret he is withholding and refusing to share and only now willing to share.”
And that remains the TRUTH, Bob. You and Fred are relentless with the inaccurate rumors and untruths. My personal opinion is that such things are hurtful and disruptive to both the grieving families and the grieving friends/community. I am entitled to my opinion on that, just as you are entitled to yours.
Please respond to the $64,000 question which will, easily and quickly establish your credibility as to your claim (which you started this thread with) to being in possession of the original videos in question.
What cameras was Aaron using?
Given that you keep saying you are so keen on
the TRUTH
Elizabeth
You took that hook line and sinker.
I rest my case
You should know better————-
Lesson #1 of Internet Conversations.
Don’t. Feed. The. Trolls.
Our counselor is clearly acting in a way befitting a Troll here.
I think it’s high time to quite feeding said counselor.
She’s truly
Wasting. Our. Precious. Time.
One would think a Law Professor would_____________________________
(Instructions: Fill in the blank section above the line.)
Can’t answer that question and/or make any suggestions.
I don’t know who she is working for, or what her agenda really is.
** THE COLORS MATTER
Reminds me of a test I took in college.
It was a final exam in a Theatrical Lighting class.
The professor hands out 3D drawing of a box set on a stage and says we are supposed to ‘draw in’ the electrics and what they call the ‘hang’ ( what fresnels go where, where we would use pano-spots, etc. ) and indicate what color ‘gels’ we would use.
The drawings he handed out were all just black/white Xerox copies of the same sketch. Everyone got the same ‘drawing’.
I was done with the test in 3 minutes.
All I did was write at the top of the paper…
I can’t answer the questions or perform the task.
You have neglected to indicate what COLOR the set is painted.
I was the only one who got an ‘A+’ on the test.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 16, 2014 at 4:12 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> I have it,
Super!
What is the DEVICE name ( Make / Model ) of the camera Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot the videos, then?
She already TOLD us, WTKTT!!!
Just a few days ago (this past week feels like a month, so there’s that), our counselor was absolutely sure the first three were taken with one of those flip callphones that firefighters use because nobody can afford to use the newer ones.
Fine… the let her answer my question.
What is the NAME ( Make / Model ) of the device?
Exactly.
Checkmate.
Look upstream.
Sorry, counselor.
All things considered, I don’t believe for a second you are in possession of what you claim, here, to be.
FAIL
**
** MORE ABOUT THE FIRST THREE ( NEWLY RELEASED ) VIDEOS
Here is some more information about the first THREE videos that were part of the 21 just released by the US Forestry Service.
It still seems they are NOT actually from Aaron Hulburd’s specific ‘Helmet Camera’ ( or whatever kind of camera he was actually using that afternoon to shoot all those other M2U00xxx videos )… but it DOES appear they WERE taken by Aaron Hulburd with the other two of the ‘Prescott Three’. ( Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).right there next to him ( in their UTVs ).
Here is why.
In other photos and videos from the fire… we can definitely see ( and have verified ) that the VEHICLES that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were driving were all ‘staged’ there on the side of the road just a few hundred yards south of the Incident Command Post there at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley…
…but they are not IN the vehicles and the two UTVs are GONE from the trailers attached to Clawson and Yowell’s pickup trucks.
So they were out ‘bombing around’ on the fire somewhere when those other photos and videos captured their vehicles ‘staged’ there by the ICP.
As it turns out… this ‘burnout operation’ represented in the new ‘first three’ videos is where they actually seemed to have gone in their UTVs.
At exactly +27 seconds in the SECOND of these first three videos ( Video 0630131533 ), The ‘roll-cage’ and back storage section of a UTV suddenly slips into view in the very bottom left corner of the video.
Only KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV ( with the red hood and fenders ) had a roll-cage.
Jason Clawson’s UTV had no such roll-cage ( at least not on that day ).
So whoever is shooting this video ( 0630131533 ) of that in-progress burnout operation up there on Model Creek Road was standing in the middle of the road… but also standing NEXT to this UTV with the roll-cage that we can now see was right there next to him.
At the very end of this video… you can even see the Nomex-shirt ( elbow? ) of whoever was standing to the cameraman’s LEFT briefly come into view. So that is proof that there was at least one other person ( with a Nomex shirt on ) standing to the LEFT of whoever was filming this particular video.
In the NEXT video with filename 0630131534 ( the THIRD of these first 3 videos in the new release )… the camera is now MOVING BACKWARDS as it films the men conducting more of the burnout operation.
The camera perspective is now from the RIGHT-CENTER of the road, and not from DEAD-CENTER in the road like the other two videos that precede this one.
At exactly +13 seconds into this THIRD video ( 0630131534 )… we again suddenly see part of the same UTV seen in the previous video to the LEFT of the camera… and it, too, is now ‘creeping forward’ on the road.
However… THIS time… we actually do see the RED FENDERS of the UTV which means it was most probably KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV. I haven’t actually seen ANY other UTVs on the fire that day that had a RED hood and RED fenders like Yowell’s did.
Some of the GEAR that is in the back of this RED-fendered UTV also matches what can be seen later on in other views of Yowell’s UTV over on Shrine Road in the M2U00xxx video series.
But there is more.
At the very END of this video… just for a moment… we seem to ALSO see the fender of Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV come into view in about the mid-left-center-bottom of the video as the ‘movement’ of the camera actually also seems to ‘pick up speed’ a little.
Seems to be proof that BOTH of the ‘Prescott Three’ UTVs were actually right there up on Model Creek Road… with Jason Clawson actively driving his and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actively driving his… so that only leaves Aaron Hulburd with ‘hands free’ to be the one filming the burnout.
So here is what I think all this proves…
1) After Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell unloaded their UTVs from their trailers up there where they were parked near the ICP… all 3 of ‘The Prescott Three’ headed up to the Model Creek Road area in the TWO UTVs.
2) Once there… Aaron Hulburd exited KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s RED-fendered UTV and was then standing in the middle of the dirt road and began filming this ‘burnout’ operation coming TOWARDS them.
3) In the SECOND video… Yowell and his RED-fendered UTV ( with roll-cage ) was to Hulburd’s LEFT while he was filming down the road, and Jason Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV ( with no roll cage ) was actually there to Hulburd’s RIGHT, but never comes into view in this video.
4) In the THIRD video… Hulburd has now SAT on the BACK of Jason Clawson’s UTV, and he is still filming the ‘burnout’ operation coming towards them… but now BOTH Yowell and Clawson are driving BOTH UTV’s slowly forward, side-by-side, in order to stay ahead of the approaching burnout operation. At the end of the video… Jason Clawson picks up speed a little and that is why we suddenly see the RED fender of Yowell’s UTV come into view for a moment. Clawson got a little ‘ahead’ of Yowell who was also creeping forward in his UTV on the LEFT side of the video and that’s when we see Yowell’s RED fender appear there.
This still doesn’t FULLY explain why these videos do NOT match the resolution of Aaron Hulburd’s other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos… or why these videos use a DATE/TIME stamp for a filename and the others ones use the M2U00xxx filename convention… but I think we can take a pretty darn good guess at that, now.
Aaron Hulburd had some OTHER device with him capable of shooting movies and THAT is what he was using to shoot these FIRST three videos that we can now see.
It also makes sense that it would be Aaron Hulburd filming this ‘burnout’ operation up there on Model Creek Road. He is a career ‘Fuels Specialist’ for the Prescott National Forest… and this ‘burnout’ is exactly the sort of thing he would be interested in recording on film. Yowell and Clawson were just driving the two UTVs at that point.
I do believe we ARE looking at least TWO different ‘devices’ used to shoot the video that has appeared in the latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS… but they BOTH probably belonged to Aaron Hulburd.
So that begs a new question which is similar to the one that has finally ‘shaken loose’ these other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos.
Whatever OTHER ‘video/audio’ capable device Hulburd might have been using to shoot these ‘burnout operation’ videos… was that REALLY the ONLY time he shot any videos or captured any radio transmissions that day with THAT ‘other’ device?
That is what the new USFS release would have us believe… the same way they wanted us to believe that the original ‘Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY footage was the ONLY time Hulburd used his Helmet-Cam that day, as well.
I do NOT trust the US Forestry Service ( or Arizona Forestry ).
There could still be MORE videos just from that ‘other’ device Hulburd appears to have been using that day to shoot the burnout operation on Model Creek Road.
As I originally said that it was NOT CREDIBLE that the original MAYDAY footage could have been the ONLY time a true-blue videophile like Aaron Hulburd would have actually USED his Helmet Camera that day ( and it turns out my instincts were correct )… I also do NOT believe that if Hulburd had another video/audio capable device with him that day that he would have ONLY used it that ONE time there on Model Creek Road.
** A WORD ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FOIA REQUEST AND WHAT ENDED UP ‘RELEASED’…
When ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ issued that FOIA request directly to the Prescott National Forest it was specifically asking for ‘Helmet Camera Video’ that was taken by any PNF employee who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Prescott National Forest obviously then had an ‘Oh Shit’ moment… and they immediately FORWARDED this valid FOIA request on to their ‘parent company’, the US Forestry Service.
In the letter that InvestigativeMEDIA got back from the USFS that was basically just ‘acknowledging’ the receipt of the FOIA request originally directed to Prescott National Forest… something got ‘mixed up’ as per what the actual REQUEST was.
Here is exactly what the ‘letter of receipt’ from USFS said…
—————————————————————————–
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter acknowledges receipt of your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated October 20, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office (WO) FOIA Service Center, Office of Regulatory and Management Services on October 21, 2014.
You requested access to the complete, unedited video taken by Prescott National Forest firefighters on June 30, 2013 during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
(snip)
Sincerely,
/s/ Jeffrey Jasper for
GEORGE VARGAS
Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act Officer
( US Forestry Service Logo appears here )
—————————————————————————–
Notice that the letter of receipt no longer specifically says that the FOIA request is for ‘Helmet Camera’ video ( only ).
So that is why those first THREE videos were probably included in this specific response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request for ‘Helmet Camera Video’.
When it hit the USFS… the ‘Helmet Camera’ specific part of the request had gotten ‘lost in the translation’ so now the request ‘morphed’ into one that was requesting ALL video(s) that might have been shot by a PNF employee on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So that’s why the other three ‘Non-Helmet-Camera’ videos also got ‘popped out of the darkness’ here and added to the beginning of the list of videos.
Whether or not this really is ALL of the ‘video shot by any PNF employee who was at the Yarnell fire’ still remains to be seen… but I think this proves WHY those other three Non-Helmet Camera videos probably ended up included in THIS release. They weren’t specifically what you could call ‘Helmet Camera’ videos… but they WERE videos taken by a PNF employee ( Hulburd ) in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
** A WORD ABOUT THESE FILENAMES
I am feeling the need to mention something about the filenames for these first three videos in the 21 just released by USFS.
The filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
It is pretty much ‘normal’ for a lot of video/audio capable devices to use this
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE style format for auto-naming the files
being saved to the memory card.
That in no way really tells us exactly what KIND of device was being used.
However… something is still a little odd.
If any device is using this kind of DATE + TIME format for actually naming files…
it is bascially IMPOSSIBLE for it to really only have been…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE
It pretty much HAD to have been at least…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE + SECOND.
Here is why.
You can’t possible expect a file naming scheme for a photo/video capable device to work when it can’t stamp the filenames down to at least the SECOND.
Anyone could take multiple photos/videos within a one minute timeframe and you also cannot possibly ever have TWO filenames on a memory card ( or even a hard drive ) with the EXACT same filename(s).
So if that device really was never using the SECONDS value for the filename stamping… it would have also have had to have been able to distinguish files all taken within the same minute with some kind of NAMING convention like this…
0630131532
0630131532(1)
0630131532(2)
0630131532(3)
Etc…
EACH of these first THREE files in this latest USFS evidence dump are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds long ( to within a few hundreths of a second ), and that is still not possible to achieve with the human hand working a shutter button… but I also still have no good explanation for that.
We would need to know more about the actual device in use to know more about that and whether it indicates any kind of ‘tampering’ with the original videos.
But… I still get the feeling that we are not seeing the ACTUAL (original) filenames for these first 3 videos in the recent ‘evidence dump’.
Each video is 29.8 ( Call it 30 ) seconds long… but the timestamps are all on consecutive MINUTE values ( 1532, 1533, 1534 ).
In order to believe these filenames are all exactly the way they originally were on the device’s memory card… that means we also have to believe that Aaron Hulburd ( or whoever took them ) also PAUSED for ( at least ) 30 seconds in-between each video filmed, and never tried to shoot anything that had the same MINUTE value for a start time.
I guess that’s possible… but regardless… something still tells me we are still not seeing the SECONDS value of the original filenames… which means these filenames themselves have been (essentiallly) ‘altered from the originals’.
That would be even more reason to question whether this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS really represents the original material they have in their possession… and whether it is, in fact, a full legal fulfillment of a valid FOIA request.
** MORE ABOUT THE UTVS
The rest of this is just for completeness sake and shows how we CAN know what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s and Jason Clawson’s UTVs really looked like.
The new M2U00xxx videos also finally give us better looks at the UTVs that belonged to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson that day… which has made it easier to identify them as the same ones that can seen for a few frames in the other 0630131532, 33 and 34 videos.
The M2U00267 video is 2 minutes and 18 seconds long.
At +1:36, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell turn around and start walking backing EAST to where their 2 UTV’s are parked back in the actual St. Joseph Shrine parking log.
The rest of the video is just them walking all the way back to where theri UTV’s are parked and the closer they get… the better you can see the 2 (parked) UTV’s.
The one on the LEFT belongs to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and is the one with the RED hood and fenders on it. It has BOTH a roll-cage and a windshield frame on it. It is also the one with two front seats and the one that Aaron Hulburd also travels when they all move around.
The UTV on the RIGHT is Jason Clawson’s. It appears to be pretty much the same make/model as Yowell’s with identical front grill and headlights, but it does NOT have either a roll-cage or a windshield frame installed ( at least not on that day ). It is all olive-drab. It also appears to have some ‘gear’ in the front which would make it hard for two people to travel in it… so that is probably why Aaron Hulburd was always traveling in the other UTV with Yowell whenever they were ‘moving around’ in these UTVs that day.
At about +2:09 or +2:11 ( in video M2U00267 ) is the best closeup view of BOTH of these UTVs sitting side-by-side.
When they reach the 2 UTV’s… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell moves towards the one on the left ( with the red fenders ) to get into the driver’s seat.Aarron Hulburd ( still filming ) is right behind Yowell and gets very close to him at this point and this is when you can clearly see that Hulburd’s camera has NOT been mounted on his Helmet for this video.
The camera lens is actually at about the same height as Yowell’s right elbow… which means it was probably clipped to Hulburd’s front shirt pocket while he was filming this M2U00267 video.
So whatever Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot these M2U00xxx videos that have come to be known as the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos probably wasn’t an actual brand-name Helmet Camera at all.
It is more likely it is just a device that is easily CLIPPED to things like a Helmet Bracket, or a short pocket, or whatever.
It it still important to know exactly WHAT device that was… what KIND of EXIF metadata SHOULD have been present in the video files themselves… and why NONE of that metadata has been included in what was supposed to be a valid fulfillment of a fully legal FOIA request.
Awesome! Thanks!
As soon as I looked at your post and saw that list of files, my brain went “Click.” I thought, “That CAN’T be the original filenames….”
And great analysis of the Model Creek burnout videos. I think they were having a blast. That, to me, is the sign of a true videophile. When I’m “in my zone” as a photographer (and it’s actually a PHYSICAL thing), I don’t stop shooting until I’m either exhausted or my cards or batteries have run out.
It’s also a mental/visual thing. Your eye starts seeing everything that’s “talking.” And it’s never just one thing that’s “talking.” There’s usually a big visual “conversation” that’s going on all around you. It’s hard to describe it. But you capture it.
I “saw” that happening with Chris McKenzie, through the eye of his lens. I could actually almost “feel” him seeing and clicking. And he was very very good at that.
I’m not a wedding photographer, but I’ve taken online classes from some of the best of them on CreativeLIVE. They also describe that “dance” of the photographer and the scene and the camera in the midst of the creative and emotional chaos of a wedding.
And, that tells me, also, that I’d bet big money Aaron was doing a WHOLE lot more filming than we are seeing.
You capture it. Because you HAVE to.
That’s a photographer. That’s a videographer.
I might add that a viewer of the pre released showing stated that the pre viewing of the video that the camera was hand held and not a helmet cam which I missed or forgot when I heard of the Videos was lulled into head cam.
So the clip on is probably a better description.
PNF employees did they have more than 1 camera or 1 person had 2?????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 16, 2014 at 5:40 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So the clip on is probably a better description.
Yes.
When we find out exactly what it was ( and we most surely WILL )… I believe it will turn out to just be that Hulburd had a ‘Helmet Adapter’ for this particular camera or smartphone…but it is not marketed or branded as an ‘official’ ‘Helmet Camera’
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> PNF employees did they have more than 1 camera
>> or 1 person had 2?????
Good question.
The original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request sent directly to Prescott National Forest ( and then forwarded immediately by PNF to their ‘parent company’… the US Forestry Service ) was specifically requesting ‘Helmet Camera Videos’ taken by any PNF employee.
Somebody at Prescott National Forest screwed up, it seems, when they forwarded the FOIA request and then the ‘letter or receipt’ from USFS to InvestigativeMEDIA said it understood the request to be for ALL VIDEO ( not just Helmet Camera Video ) from anyone who worked for Prescott Forest.
Keyword here ( in both cases ) is VIDEO.
There are no PHOTOGRAPHS in this latest ‘evidence dump’.
Just VIDEO… as USFS understood the original request to be.
So God knows how many actual PHOTOGRAPHS they ( USFS ) might have that were taken by these same men ( The Prescott Three ) with the same cameras.
It’s not credible that these men would have had cameras with them that day ( as we know they did ) and not have been USING them.
Everyone else was.
Someone needs to issue a separate FOIA for ‘All photographs taken at the Yarnell Hill Fire by any employee of the Prescott National Forest’.
This is like pulling teeth.
These people aren’t going to just ‘come clean’.
They are ONLY going to ‘give up’ something when the FOIA request specifically targets what they have in their possession.
By the way… a long time ago ( shortly after I first identified the shooter of the original MAYDAY footage as Aaron Hulburd, and the other two men in the video as Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) and I then discovered that all three of them were these Bea Day Type 2 team off-the-radar hires and that they all worked for the Prescott National Forest…
…I got tired of constantly typing…
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
So I decided to give myself a break and just call them…
“The Prescott Three”.
I think I’m going to change that and just start calling them…
“The Three Prescotteers”
( LOL… I told you it was going to take some humor to get this latest round of USFS / AZF bullshit ).
Bingo!
And you do know that Prescott is pronounced like Biscuit, don’t you?
Press-kit. NOT Press-cot.
That’s really important to know.
So it’s The Three Press-kiteers.
OK, time for me to go back to bed, obviously.
Of course, it’s still spelled the same.
This pronunciation thing is just for when we are interviewed by major mainstream media.
Good Morning!!
Hope this week goes better than last week!
Altho some people who are really into video don’t do a lot of photography.
Why bother?
Videographers are capturing, most essentially, MOTION.
You can always pull a still out of a video.
I think Chris was way more into capturing stills than video.
I think, similarly, Aaron may have been way more into capturing motion than stills.
And regarding Chris and stills.
A lot of us who have “cut our teeth” in photography are still uncomfortable shooting video. We tend to be all perfectionistic when it comes to images, and have honed our skills to do that,
and video is truly a “horse of a different color.”
To get really good video requires a whole different set of technical skills.
So we are way more comfortable shooting stills than video.
I think Aaron might have been totally fine with just shooting video.
Copy ( all ) that…
…but I was actually agreeing with Mr. Powers.
It is perfectly possible that ALL THREE of the “Prescotteers” had cameras with them.
We still don’t know the full 411 on these guys… what they might ahve had with them that day… or even who the hell was giving them any ‘assignments’ or whether they were truly just ‘freelancing’ all over Yarnell that day.
In these videos just released… they really do just look like ‘tourists’ hanging around and ‘watching’ everyone else ‘do things’.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was actually barking some orders at people from time to time ( Like ‘Hey Charlie… you need to be at the head of the column” )… but you can tell that was just him. He’s a Type A personality. Finds it hard to be quiet.
But we still have no idea what AUTHORITY these guys had to be telling ANYONE who was officially on the Arizona State Forestry Division payroll to be doing anything that day.
I have looked carefully for any ‘cameras’ clipped to the belts or in the pockets of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson… and I don’t see anything visible… but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have them.
Example: Not only do we seem to actually SEE Jason Clawson talking on a ‘smartphone’ as his vehicle crosses the Panebaker camera setup headed for Yarnell…
…there were MANY individual phone calls that day directly between Jason Clawson and Darrell Wills from the time Clawson arrived… up to… and beyond the deployment.
So it’s pretty safe to say Clawson DID have a ‘smartphone’ with him that day.
Did he take any pictures ( or video ) with it?
We still can’t be sure he did NOT.
“…there were MANY individual phone calls that day directly between Jason Clawson and Darrell Wills from the time Clawson arrived… up to… and beyond the deployment.”
Is that from Willis’ interviews/unit log?
I’m wondering if, since Bea Day, the Type 2 LONG Teams Incident Commander was actually there, that she might have been “assigning” her people to their tasks?
There was so much confusion going on with this.
And, yes about the Prescotteers most likely having other imaging in their possession.
Marti Reed says
November 16, 2014 at 5:04 pm
Awesome! Thanks!
>> Marti said…
>>
>> As soon as I looked at your post and saw that list of files, my
>> brain went “Click.” I thought, “That CAN’T be the original
>> filenames….”
Here is something else to consider ( and something I am still putting a stopwatch on here and will report about soon ).
Again… the filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
All THREE of these videos are EXACTLY 29.8 seconds long ( give or take a few hundreths of a second ).
So… we are supposed to believe the following…
NOTE: For the sake of just explaining what I’m about to explain, I am going to assume what I established above is correct… that it was Aaron Hulburd operating this camera for these 3 videos and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was busy actually driving his red-fendered UTV… and Jason Clawson was also busy actually driving his olive-colored UTV.
Aaron shoots the FIRST 29.8 second long 0630131532 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock was somewhere between 1532 and 1533 and that’s why the filename is timestamped the way it is… at 1532.
Aaron then pauses NO MORE than 30 seconds before he then starts shooting the SECOND 29.8 second long 0630131533 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1532 and 1533… hence… the 1533 filename suffix.
Once again… Aaron then pauses NO MORE than 30 seconds before he then starts shooting the THIRD 29.8 second long 0630131534 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1533 and 1534… hence… the 1534 filename suffix.
Sounds GOOD, right? Sounds perfectly POSSIBLE, right?
Well… here is the NEWS FLASH.
It appears ( based on what is actually being filmed ) that there are MORE than 30 seconds of actual real-life separation in the parts of reality that lie in-between the videos.
That means ( since each video is already 29.8 seconds long ) that if there were MORE than just 30.2 seconds of reality happening in-between the videos themselves… then it is not possible for the filenames to be the way they are.
It is actually looking like the real-time separation between the end of the SECOND video and the start of the THIRD video had to be even a little more than SIXTY seconds ( perhaps more )… based on the ACTUAL movement of the men and the truck that is coming forward on the road.
If that turns out to be the case… then there is NO WAY that THIRD 29.8 second video could possibl have a timestamped filename of 0630131534.
It would have HAD to have been at least a minute LATER than 1534
and looked something like 0630131535 or (perhaps) 0630131536.
Still figuring this out ( with a stopwatch, Google Earth, and some software ).
More later.
Shoot… I mis-typed something in ‘Step 4’ above.
I hope it was obvious that was a typo.
That ‘step’ should have been…
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1533 and 1534… hence… the 1533 filename suffix.
**
** TIME FOR A NEW CHAPTER?
This is just a ‘heads up’ to everyone.
I think this Chapter might be exceeding the limits of the WordPress software again.
Some ‘orphaned comments’ are starting to appear in weird places… such as the follwing from ‘mike’ that somehow is now appearing at the very BOTTOM of this Chapter and not where it was intended to appear…
—————————————————
On November 15, 2014 at 4:41 pm, mike said…
Did not know that about Brown.
Checked and he a cat 1 racer – i.e. VERY elite.
Believe me, he is in shape.
—————————————————
If a comment doesn’t seem to appear… check the very BOTTOM of this Chapter.
‘Orphanded’ comments can often appear WAY down there when WordPress is starting to go brain-dead because of too many messages.
Thanks John!!
Oops,
thanks wtktt!!
it’s definitely time for me to go do something else. Like watch an awesome dance performance!
Followup… I actually think it would make sense to start a new chapter that coincides with the latest release of ‘evidence’ from USFS.
We haven’t even really begun to fully analyze it and it would make sense to start a new chapter for that.
Just thought I’d let you know I provided all that fluff down below to help move this process along.
It is, in TRUTH (cough cough) the ONLY reason I did it.
As I told Mr. Powers below when he jokingly said he thought M2U just stands for ‘Me To You’… it’s gonna take some humor to get through this latest round of bullshit ‘brought to you by’ the US Forestry Service ( and Arzizona Forestry ).
Thanks for providing some.
That sequence was HILARIOUS ( and actually spot-on ).
I worked on the Navajo Reservation.
That explains everything.
Survival Skilz.
Actually I worked for the Elders of the Big Mountain Sovereign Dine Nation.
Which explain even more about my Survival Skilz.
They were fighting Congress.
In response to “Methods,” the videos with the “R” at the end of them are “redacted,” which explains why you can see them in different formats than you can with the other videos in that bunch (that apparently John Dougherty is only now getting). Meaning: when the USDA (which is the “parent” organization over the USFS) “redacted” (or blurred) parts of the videos with the “R” in the name, the USDA had to save those videos (the ones with the”R” in the names) in NEW file formats (as, say, Mp4 instead of whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video originally), which explains why you can therefore view them in different formats (or whatever the technical word is) than you can with the videos that do NOT have the “R” in the name.
Phrased differently, in order to “redact” or blur things out, the USDA had to save those videos – and only those videos (with the “R” in the name) – in a DIFFERENT format (which then allows you to view them differently, as you observed).
Sorry.
I can edit any frickin video I want to, in Lightroom or Photoshop, and save it in the original format, or any other format I CHOOSE to.
Reply to Method’s post on November 15, 2014 at 11:48 am
>> Method said…
>>
>> From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom.
>> These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and
>> give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle
>> lenses on them.
Exactly correct.
>> Method also said…
>>
>> I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
Neither do we, at this point. Still trying to determine that.
As I said yesterday… even though the original MAYDAY footage that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called “The Helmet Cam Video”… Aaron’s camera might not have been an actual de-facto ‘Helmet Camera’ at all. In some of the newly released videos it is obvious that it was just clipped to his front shirt pocket like some of the newer ‘Body Cam’ cameras Police are using. It could have been just something that was able to CLIP to a Helmet Bracket… or a shirt pocket… or whatever.
>> Method also said…
>>
>> One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released
>> videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in
>> 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p.
>> My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching
>> between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate
>>cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has
>> all ready been discussed.
Even though US Forestry has removed MOST of the EXIF metadata from ALL of these ‘copies’ of Hulburd material they released… it appears that SOME of the original EXIF data survived their copies and their conversions.
Here is a post I made yesterday down below in response to Mr. Powers which explains what I am seeing and coincides with what you, yourself have noticed about these ‘files’.
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> This was not the original videos so an assignment of
>> numbers could have come as the segments were copied
Yes. It’s possible.
Mr. Powers… what you are about to see is that there IS more evidence ‘lurking’ in these videos.
Even though what has been released are not ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the originals and all the original DEVICE metadata has been purposely REMOVED from them… there are STILL some pieces of EXIF metadata that will survive most ‘conversions’ and ‘editing’.
One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA
FWVGA = Full Wide Video Graphics Array.
However… any file in the AZF release that has had an ‘R’ added to the end of it ends up with a DIFFERENT video resolution.
All the files with an ‘R’ added seem to be in the 1280×720 format.
Also… the M2Uxxxx clips that have retained what appears to be the original FWVGA ( 854×480 ) formatting are also showing a sound codec handler named Lavf54.29.104…
…but the M2Uxxxx files in the release that have an ‘R’ added to the filename are simply showing a sound codec handler name of ‘Apple’.
So what the hell does all that mean?
It means that the ORIGINALS ( from Hulburd’s camera ) were probably shot with a device that uses the FWVGA 854×480 dimensions and the Lavf54.29.104 audio codec…
…but files that have been EDITED by US Forestry were edited on an
Apple computer and then ‘saved’ back to disk with an altered format
of 1280×720 and a reconvert on the audio track using Apple’s sound codec.
This does NOT mean that the ones still using the FWVGA 854×480 format and the Lav54.29.104 codec have NOT been altered.
They still might have been ‘truncated’ either at the start, or the end… or both… and still retained those settings of the orginal metadata.
It just means that it is perfectly obvious which files the US Forestry was editing manually and making actual CHANGES to the interior of the video before ‘saving’ the material back to disk… and that all these files they were EDITING were being done on an Apple computer.
Even if they hadn’t been adding that stupid ‘R’ letter to the ends of the filenames they are ADMITTING to altering… we would still have been able to tell which ones they were monkeying with on their Apple Computer.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
I am still checking on that. Stay tuned.
I still maintain that the US Forestry Service has still NOT lawfully complied with any legal FOIA request because we are not seeing the actual EXIF DEVICE information in these files.
You are allowed to make redactions and claim ‘exemptions’ under the FOIA rules… but you are still supposed to deliver ‘essentially identical’ copies of the material you have in your possession.
Removing MOST of the original EXIF data is still a no-no, legally speaking.
WARNING: I think WordPress is starting to go ‘brain dead’ again because of too many messages. My response to ‘Method’ above was supposed to be a new ‘parent’ comment and it has appeared here as a ‘Reply’ instead.
One of mike’s comments also just got ‘orphaned’ as well and somehow is only appearing at the very BOTTOM of this Chapter.
Time for Chapter TEN?
I actually think the release of the new footage ( and our current discussion of it ) would be a good ‘logical place’ to start a new chapter.
WTKTT—-For your info……….
The FS has some Highly qualified Information officers I use to work wit one he had quite a office where he could edit and work with all kinds of video arranging it into news releases or Forest information disks for release on many different
Forest projects.
So I am saying The FS has some very sophisticated equipment on many forests or in Regional offices that could edit an original or copy of an original Video
Mainly just for a heads up to you and Marti.
What we are seeing is an edited version of the original with what was selected to release I would bet on it. It was not as well done as it could have been and you are finding the flaws.
Keep digging the answer is there…………
Mr. Powers… thank you.
That is why it will be IMPOSSIBLE for the US Forestry service to claim that anything that happened here was any kind of ‘amateur hour’ mistake.
That is also why I took the time below to tell you that ‘story’ about how whoever did the ‘pixelation’ BLUR-OUT on the face of the driver of the white pickup was obviously VERY GOOD at that sort of thing.
If you trace that blur-out operation frame-by-frame… it’s obvious it was no slouch tasked with doing that. He/She makes NONE of the mistakes that most people would when attempting that sort of thing.
So they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
There is no doubt about that.
WHY they were doing it ( and not completely fulfilling a valid, legal FOIA request )… is what remains to be discovered.
One thing to remember they are not the FBI or CIA
they are not proficient at this so they may well screw up don’t expect Einstein here.
Keep working at it.
Exactly.
Speaking of Non-Einstein matters…
If you read the letter that John Dougherty received from Tom Harbour ( Head of Fire Aviation as USFS and close co-worker of SAIT Co-Leader Mike Dudley ) regarding the CONTENTS of the FOIA package… Mr. Harbour states unequivocably that ONLY 4 of the 21 videos they are ‘delivering’ in fulfillment of the FOIA request have been ‘redacted’ in any way.
Mr. Harbour of USFS also gives valid explanations for the ‘redactions’ and exactly where they are in the videos that have an ‘R’ added to the filenames.
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
What that actually MEANS, then, is that there is absolutely no reason why the OTHER 18 videos should not be absolute byte-for-byte copies of Aaron Hulburd’s ORIGINALS, complete with all original EXIF metadata.
They aren’t.
It is all well and good that Tom Harbour and the USFS wanted to ‘get out ahead of the story’ and make arrangements with Arizona Forestry for THEM to host a web page containing ‘copies’ of these videos…
…but providing the same videos that have been simply prepared for uploading to YouTube is NOT the same as legally fulfilling a valid FOIA request.
So according to Tom Harbour himself… EIGHTEEN of the videos that should have been delivered to InvestigativeMEDIA should have been absolute byte-for-byte copies of what they originally received.
If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they not already provided?
WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they not already provided?”
They WERE already provided.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 16, 2014 at 1:20 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming
>> they made ANY redactions whatsoever
>> on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of
>> evidence… then WHERE are the
>> byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them
>> and WHY were they not already provided?”
>>
>> They WERE already provided.
To who?
The material sitting on YouTube is by no means byte-for-byte copies of the originals.
If they were… we would be seeing all the original EXIF metadata in the files.
We are NOT.
Mr. Dougherty has indicated that the material he has received on a DVD that is also supposed to be a valid (legal) fulfillment of his original FOIA request is nothing more than the same YouTube videos linked to on the Arizona Forestry website prior to the fulfillment of his request.
I would HOPE they actually sent Mr. Dougherty valid, legal, byte-for-byte copies of the material they have in their possession ( as they are supposed to )… but it doesn’t sound like that happened.
For anyone following this particluar thread… see above for continuation of this specific exchange.
The poster known as ‘Elizabeth’ came right back and said these ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of the material USFS has in there possession were provided to HER.
We have give her the chance to prove what she said by simply telling us what some of the original EXIF data is from the files… or what FORMAT the original Hulburd video was in… but she refuses to even do those simple things.
It is most likely she is simply just LYING… but if she is NOT… then she has just given de-facto public testimony that the United States Forestry Service is violating Federal Law by ‘picking and choosing’ what to deliver in response to valid, legal FOIA requests depending on WHO the requestor is.
Stay tuned. More about this to come, I’m sure.
If the USFS really is violating Federal Law… I’m sure the mainstream media will be all over it.
Hope this goes where it’s supposed to.
I don’t know if you saw below where I asked if Aaron was even zooming.
So I quickly went back and looked at the first of the M2U’s (I’m totally unfamiliar with this format, and had never even heard of it til now).
He is, indeed, zooming in and out. That means there has to be a button or something (which kind of defeats the purpose of “Look Mom No Hands.”)
And it also means, I think, it’s something different from what police use for their hear/body cams.
The other thing that struck me while watching that video is the extremely high “resolution” of it, even though I was even only watching it in 360p. Usually I have to bump a youtube video up as high as I possibly can to get decent resolution, unless it’s shot with a really good camera.
I’ve watched lots of Ferguson livestreaming, and they use the best and the newest iphones, and their video isn’t as good as that one of Aaron’s.
It reminds me of when my daughter was doing her college junior year in France in 2007/2008 and she was photographing it all with her little 2-year old Nikon Coolpix and putting it all up on Facebook so I could show the pix to my dying father.
When I finally got the cd’s of the photos I was blown away. She was shooting at 3 megapixels (to save laptop hard-drive space) and the images were amazing! I’ve made 13×19 prints of them for her to sell, and the detail is stunning. Even her night photos.
I’m sure it was the lens.
So there’s that.
Also. I haven’t downloaded any of these videos. I decided to wait until JD put them in his dropbox. So I don’t know what the files look like.
You said:
“One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA.”
So are you seeing something that says “Original Image Size” in the metadata?
Or are you going by the fact that the video you downloaded from YouTube is 854×480?
Hmm just googled 480p and it is usually 720×480 so I guess that does look like 854×480 is unique.
This stuff is really new territory for me.
Now I not only need to agonize over what kind of smartphone to get, but what kind of head/whatever cam to get.
Personally, I want a gopro and a drone for Christmas.
Marti… as I told Mr. Powers in a comment above… the thing to really focus on here is WHY USFS has NOT provided ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of at least the 18 video clips they claim have NOT been ‘redacted’ in any way.
That letter Mr. John Dougherty got explaining what was GOING to be sent in fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s FOIA request was signed by Mr. Tom Harbour.
Tom Harbour is the de-facto HEAD of Fire Aviation at the United States Forestry Service. He and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley have worked together for almost a decade now… and many of Mr. Tom Harbours USFS memos and documents are actually co-signed by Mike Dudley ( but not the letter sent to John Dougherty ).
Mr. Harbour states in no uncertain terms that only FOUR of the 21 videos have had ‘redactions’ applied. He does, in fact, say that these files have an ‘R’ added to the filenames and ( in the letter ) he DOES give valid reasons why the redactions were being applied to these FOUR videos.
Fine. Whatever.
That leaves EIGHTEEN video files that should be absolute byte-for-byte copies of the originals… complete with ALL original EXIF metadata.
Preparing files for a YouTube channel and then releasing THOSE files in response to an FOIA request is NOT a valid, legal response to that FOIA request.
I really think this has to be pursued.
If Mr. Harbour is telling the truth… then there is NO REASON why 18 of those 21 videos should not be byte-for-byte copies of Hulburd’s originals.
I think we WILL find out exactly what kind of camera Aaron Hulburd was using that day… but that still won’t produce byte-for-byte copies of his originals.
Someone is going to have to ‘challenge’ what was released and take the stance that the FOIA request has NOT been legally fulfilled ( yet ).
Exactly.
Anybody want to lay bets on whether it will be JD or AZCentral who does it first?
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 15, 2014 at 5:37 pm
>> Elizabeth wrote
>>
>> Phrased differently, in order to “redact” or blur things out, the USDA had
>> to save those videos – and only those videos (with the “R” in the name) –
>> in a DIFFERENT format (which then allows you to view them
>> differently, as you observed).
They most certainly did not HAVE to do that… just because they were adding even legitimate ‘redactions’ like blurring out a citizen’s face, blocking a phone number in the audio, or ‘blacking out’ images of the deployment site.
They CHOSE to do it.
USFS has CHOSEN to release copies of the videos that are NOT ‘original copies’ with all the EXIF metadata still present in the files.
This is actually a violation of the rules of FOIA… and no one should consider their original FOIA requestes to have been properly ( and legally ) fulfilled yet.
Also… I covered all this yesterday. You must have missed it.
See above ( or below ).
WTKTT said: “Also… I covered all this yesterday. You must have missed it.”
You must have missed Mart’s post – I was responding to a post that Marti made in which she quoted “Methods” as seeming confused about why the “R” videos were different. Because I have some of the metadata, I could clarify… so I did.
I think you missed the point.
I want to pull this discussion up to the top again, because it’s way down in the stream.
Methods says
NOVEMBER 15, 2014 AT 11:48 AM
”
From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom. These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle lenses on them. I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p. My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has all ready been discussed.”
Thanks! It makes sense to me now (DOH) that a helmet cam would not zoom. “Look ma, no hands!”
WTKTT wrote somewhere in this jumble of threads that he thought maybe the originals were a smaller format and the Rs were a larger format.
That, actually, didn’t quite make sense to me, except for that’s what “the evidence” shows in the metadata.
I know so little about video-editing or these kinds of cameras that I have no clue.
I’m actually really posting this here so WTKTT sees it so he can weigh in on what you are saying.
BTW I came across a youtube video that’s kind of an ad for two types of police headcams. It was interesting.
Here it is:
“Police Body Cams: Comparing the Vievu LE3 and Taser’s Axon”
http://youtu.be/q_3BV8YdQs4?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
I have to say, all things considered, a police body-camera with the name Taser is not the best PR, IMHO.
But I found it interesting, given what WTKTT was realizing about how he didn’t think Aaron’s camera was a head/helmet cam, after all.
So these cameras wouldn’t zoom either.
Now that I’m thinking about it, are we sure Aaron was even zooming his lens? I can’t imagine, how you could do that. The whole point is “Look Ma, No Hands!”
Thanks for your help!
Marti… we must have pressed ‘transmit’ at the same time.
I was answering Method’s latest post as well and that information I was giving to Mr. Powers is reproduced up above.
Brilliant minds think………..similarly.
Unless they really really disagree.
Allow me to clarify two things for some of you:
1. Video M2U00264 cannot provide evidence of what the winds were doing at 4:22 p.m. because video M2U00264 was not recorded until AFTER 4:27.29 p.m. on June 30, 2013. (While I do not have my notes and the video metadata in front of me, I know at the very least that the M2U00264 video started AFTER the Yarnell Gamble video ended, which, off the top of my head, ended somewhere around 4:27.29-ish p.m.)
2. In the same video (M2U00264) that Marti cites as showing evidence of 30 or 40 or 45 mph winds from an alleged outflow boundary bringing winds from the N/NE, we hear Paul Musser – who most stellar WFFs in R-3 seem to view highly and who was actually supposed to be the IC for the YHF on the 30th (and who was also the highly-respected Supt. of Flagstaff Hotshots for many years, training some of the best WFFs of the current generation (according to those who know about such things), much, by the way, like Marty Rose, who also is viewed as being one of the best WFF trainers in R-3 at the time) – mentioning that his smartphone advises that the winds in Skull Valley are 40 mph. What Paul does NOT say at the end of his comment is “ALSO” or “TOO.” Paul makes his comment about the winds in Skull Valley in a way that suggests he is NOT feeling the same level of winds right there in the Shrine area. If you disagree, I’d be curious to know what you are hearing in Paul’s comments to suggest that I am misunderstanding Paul’s sentiment.
Okay… what the heck… just for entertainment’s sake… I’ll bite.
1) What is the significance of 4:22 PM to the extent that you are ‘hanging your hat’ on it?
If you are ( for some reason ) trying to get as close to 4:22 as possible… then please have a look at the actual YARNELL-GAMBLE video above again… and look closely at the TREES.
They are all blowing just as hard ( if not harder ) than the ones in Marti’s example video of what trees like that look like in 30 mph winds. Also please watch the ABC15 ‘Air15’ Helicopter footage again. They were over the fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM. Pay close attention to what is happening on the GROUND in this Helicopter footage.
2) Just because Paul Musser does NOT add a single word to the end of his report about what is happening in Skull Valley… you are assuming no similar winds were blowing in Yarnell?
Seriously?
In the video in question… you don’t have to look to Paul Musser’s use of the King’s English to wonder if the wind was blowing in Yarnell. Just WATCH THE VIDEO ( and the ones that accompany it ).
Your argument is like saying if you are watching of a video of someone standing in the rain but they don’t SAY it’s actually raining where they are… then it must not be and the video is some kind of ‘illusion’.
And…….. yes.
“Is it……raining???” says one firefighter with a mystified voice.
“Yes, I think it IS!!” answered another, with an equally mystified voice.
And our counselor says,
“That CAN’T be true, I don’t see the rain falling in the video!”
“Is it NIGHT???” says one firefighter, in a mystified voice, as a massive amount of smoke and embers shrouds him, making him cough heavily.
Our counselor schools him, with a determined and patient “voice.” “Of course it’s not night! Let me explain. Listen up, and tell me if you think I’m making it a mistake. It’s only 4:31 in the afternoon. And are you, by any chance Fred? Because you are making a really dumb mistake!”
“And because you look like all those other Freds standing around you.”
And our counselor replies to Marti Reed:
“And, Marti, please review the video. The one asking “Is it NIGHT???” is not the same firefighter who is coughing. You really need to get your facts straight”
To which Marti Reed replies:
“I think you’re missing the point.”
Of course this whole potentially disastrous and unfit for general consumption (much less those poor FAMILIES) mix-up in communications is directly caused by WantsToKnowTheTruth who, at exactly 10:05 PM on NOVEMBER 15, 2014, who in TRUTH wrote:
“Okay… what the heck… just for entertainment’s sake… I’ll bite.”
And, of course everybody that’s anybody in Region 3 knows WTKTT is actually Fred, along with RTS, TTWARE, SR, FF+20, and now, due to my extensive research, we also know Mike is also.
And they all know Fred is a trouble-maker.
And that High Priestess of the Weather Wizards, hmmmmm, I’m now beginning to suspect she’s Fred, too…..
I know this because I live in Region 3, AND I have a telephone!
I rest my case.
OK.
I get what you are saying about 4:22 (when Tyson’s log says winds from the west at 45mph), vs the winds in the video, which appear to me to be, basically 30-ish mph. Not 45, at that point.
We’re talking a plus/minus 5 minute difference.
I think that is realistic because of the topography.
Indeed the two videos Aaron took before 264 don’t show anywhere near as much wind, as far as I can see.
So we are looking at a wind that hit the Shrine area a teensy bit later (5-ish minutes) than it hit the Youth Camp.
That is totally not unusual, given the topography.
The Youth Camp is located in an area in which an east/west drainage (where the dozer line was put in connecting to Sesame) meets another drainage coming down from the north, and also meets another low area wrapping around the boulder hill to the north of where the crew was cutting brush to help create the line they were all thinking of burning out that night.
The area near the Shrine, where Aaron was filming, is further south, in a north/south drainage area, surrounded by trees on both sides. More protected.
The way wind works, it’s not programmable, or even. It’s partly seriously dictated by topography, regardless of what system, overall, is creating. It’s very dynamic.
Living in Albuquerque, where we often get these thunderstorms with powerful outflow boundaries, the air can be totally calm and then suddenly be blowing 60 mph and uprooting trees. It can be really freaky.
So it’s completely understandable that a wind event would hit the Youth Camp in such a way that Tyson would estimate it at 4:22 PM at 45 mph (probably partially based on possible earlier micro weather observations), and then hit the more southern and protected area five minutes (-ish) later at about 30 mph.
You seem to be concerned about the wind(s) being indraft (via the fire) vs outflow (via the thunderstorm). And thus you keep saying “alleged outflow.”
Quite frankly, I think we are looking at a chaotic combination of the two. The thunderstorm pushing down from the northeast would have, on a seriously oversimplified model, most likely have pushed outflow winds GENERALLY from the northeast to the southwest at this location. Which they did, causing the fire to stand up and then turn around and push the entire fire, ultimately towards the southwest, killing Granite Mountain and burning down Glen Ilah.
But this is not oversimplified on the ground, with a fire rotating clockwise, sucking those winds back up into it over complex topography. Which is, I think, the point you are trying to make. That’s also why, I think, Tyson recorded the winds as being from the west.
I’ve been wondering myself, it that storm was pushing outflow winds, essentially, to the southwest, which I think it was, why is Tyson recording them out of the west, and, although it’s really hard to tell, that seems to be what is happening in the video.
Basically, I think the whole thing we are seeing is a really complex extreme wind/fire event that’s also being shaped by the topography. It’s not an either/or.
It’s extreme fire behavior coupled with a thunderstorm coupled with topography.
OK, dad, I hope I got that right.
Marti the Weather Girl
A Fire Weather Schooling on Local factors and the influence of Thunderstorms.
Calm to extreme winds from many directions.
“Is it raining????” said one firefighter.
“Yes, I think it is!!!” said another.
**
** MORE ABOUT THE FIRST THREE ( NEWLY RELEASED ) VIDEOS
Here is some more information about the first THREE videos that were part of the 21 just released by the US Forestry Service.
It still seems they are NOT actually from Aaron Hulburd’s specific ‘Helmet Camera’ ( or whatever kind of camera he was actually using that afternoon to shoot all those other M2U00xxx videos )… but it DOES appear they WERE taken by Aaron Hulburd with the other two of the ‘Prescott Three’. ( Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).right there next to him ( in their UTVs ).
Here is why.
In other photos and videos from the fire… we can definitely see ( and have verified ) that the VEHICLES that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were driving were all ‘staged’ there on the side of the road just a few hundred yards south of the Incident Command Post there at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley…
…but they are not IN the vehicles and the two UTVs are GONE from the trailers attached to Clawson and Yowell’s pickup trucks.
So they were out ‘bombing around’ on the fire somewhere when those other photos and videos captured their vehicles ‘staged’ there by the ICP.
As it turns out… this ‘burnout operation’ represented in the new ‘first three’ videos is where they actually seemed to have gone in their UTVs.
At exactly +27 seconds in the SECOND of these first three videos ( Video 0630131533 ), The ‘roll-cage’ and back storage section of a UTV suddenly slips into view in the very bottom left corner of the video.
Only KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV ( with the red hood and fenders ) had a roll-cage.
Jason Clawson’s UTV had no such roll-cage ( at least not on that day ).
So whoever is shooting this video ( 0630131533 ) of that in-progress burnout operation up there on Model Creek Road was standing in the middle of the road… but also standing NEXT to this UTV with the roll-cage that we can now see was right there next to him.
At the very end of this video… you can even see the Nomex-shirt ( elbow? ) of whoever was standing to the cameraman’s LEFT briefly come into view. So that is proof that there was at least one other person ( with a Nomex shirt on ) standing to the LEFT of whoever was filming this particular video.
In the NEXT video with filename 0630131534 ( the THIRD of these first 3 videos in the new release )… the camera is now MOVING BACKWARDS as it films the men conducting more of the burnout operation.
The camera perspective is now from the RIGHT-CENTER of the road, and not from DEAD-CENTER in the road like the other two videos that precede this one.
At exactly +13 seconds into this THIRD video ( 0630131534 )… we again suddenly see part of the same UTV seen in the previous video to the LEFT of the camera… and it, too, is now ‘creeping forward’ on the road.
However… THIS time… we actually do see the RED FENDERS of the UTV which means it was most probably KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV. I haven’t actually seen ANY other UTVs on the fire that day that had a RED hood and RED fenders like Yowell’s did.
Some of the GEAR that is in the back of this RED-fendered UTV also matches what can be seen later on in other views of Yowell’s UTV over on Shrine Road in the M2U00xxx video series.
But there is more.
At the very END of this video… just for a moment… we seem to ALSO see the fender of Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV come into view in about the mid-left-center-bottom of the video as the ‘movement’ of the camera actually also seems to ‘pick up speed’ a little.
Seems to be proof that BOTH of the ‘Prescott Three’ UTVs were actually right there up on Model Creek Road… with Jason Clawson actively driving his and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actively driving his… so that only leaves Aaron Hulburd with ‘hands free’ to be the one filming the burnout.
So here is what I think all this proves…
1) After Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell unloaded their UTVs from their trailers up there where they were parked near the ICP… all 3 of ‘The Prescott Three’ headed up to the Model Creek Road area in the TWO UTVs.
2) Once there… Aaron Hulburd exited KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s RED-fendered UTV and was then standing in the middle of the dirt road and began filming this ‘burnout’ operation coming TOWARDS them.
3) In the SECOND video… Yowell and his RED-fendered UTV ( with roll-cage ) was to Hulburd’s LEFT while he was filming down the road, and Jason Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV ( with no roll cage ) was actually there to Hulburd’s RIGHT, but never comes into view in this video.
4) In the THIRD video… Hulburd has now SAT on the BACK of Jason Clawson’s UTV, and he is still filming the ‘burnout’ operation coming towards them… but now BOTH Yowell and Clawson are driving BOTH UTV’s slowly forward, side-by-side, in order to stay ahead of the approaching burnout operation. At the end of the video… Jason Clawson picks up speed a little and that is why we suddenly see the RED fender of Yowell’s UTV come into view for a moment. Clawson got a little ‘ahead’ of Yowell who was also creeping forward in his UTV on the LEFT side of the video and that’s when we see Yowell’s RED fender appear there.
This still doesn’t FULLY explain why these videos do NOT match the resolution of Aaron Hulburd’s other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos… or why these videos use a DATE/TIME stamp for a filename and the others ones use the M2U00xxx filename convention… but I think we can take a pretty darn good guess at that, now.
Aaron Hulburd had some OTHER device with him capable of shooting movies and THAT is what he was using to shoot these FIRST three videos that we can now see.
It also makes sense that it would be Aaron Hulburd filming this ‘burnout’ operation up there on Model Creek Road. He is a career ‘Fuels Specialist’ for the Prescott National Forest… and this ‘burnout’ is exactly the sort of thing he would be interested in recording on film. Yowell and Clawson were just driving the two UTVs at that point.
I do believe we ARE looking at least TWO different ‘devices’ used to shoot the video that has appeared in the latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS… but they BOTH probably belonged to Aaron Hulburd.
So that begs a new question which is similar to the one that has finally ‘shaken loose’ these other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos.
Whatever OTHER ‘video/audio’ capable device Hulburd might have been using to shoot these ‘burnout operation’ videos… was that REALLY the ONLY time he shot any videos or captured any radio transmissions that day with THAT ‘other’ device?
That is what the new USFS release would have us believe… the same way they wanted us to believe that the original ‘Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY footage was the ONLY time Hulburd used his Helmet-Cam that day, as well.
I do NOT trust the US Forestry Service ( or Arizona Forestry ).
There could still be MORE videos just from that ‘other’ device Hulburd appears to have been using that day to shoot the burnout operation on Model Creek Road.
As I originally said that it was NOT CREDIBLE that the original MAYDAY footage could have been the ONLY time a true-blue videophile like Aaron Hulburd would have actually USED his Helmet Camera that day ( and it turns out my instincts were correct )… I also do NOT believe that if Hulburd had another video/audio capable device with him that day that he would have ONLY used it that ONE time there on Model Creek Road.
** A WORD ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FOIA REQUEST AND WHAT ENDED UP ‘RELEASED’…
When ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ issued that FOIA request directly to the Prescott National Forest it was specifically asking for ‘Helmet Camera Video’ that was taken by any PNF employee who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Prescott National Forest obviously then had an ‘Oh Shit’ moment… and they immediately FORWARDED this valid FOIA request on to their ‘parent company’, the US Forestry Service.
In the letter that InvestigativeMEDIA got back from the USFS that was basically just ‘acknowledging’ the receipt of the FOIA request originally directed to Prescott National Forest… something got ‘mixed up’ as per what the actual REQUEST was.
Here is exactly what the ‘letter of receipt’ from USFS said…
—————————————————————————–
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter acknowledges receipt of your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated October 20, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office (WO) FOIA Service Center, Office of Regulatory and Management Services on October 21, 2014.
You requested access to the complete, unedited video taken by Prescott National Forest firefighters on June 30, 2013 during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
(snip)
Sincerely,
/s/ Jeffrey Jasper for
GEORGE VARGAS
Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act Officer
( US Forestry Service Logo appears here )
—————————————————————————–
Notice that the letter of receipt no longer specifically says that the FOIA request is for ‘Helmet Camera’ video ( only ).
So that is why those first THREE videos were probably included in this specific response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request for ‘Helmet Camera Video’.
When it hit the USFS… the ‘Helmet Camera’ specific part of the request had gotten ‘lost in the translation’ so now the request ‘morphed’ into one that was requesting ALL video(s) that might have been shot by a PNF employee on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So that’s why the other three ‘Non-Helmet-Camera’ videos also got ‘popped out of the darkness’ here and added to the beginning of the list of videos.
Whether or not this really is ALL of the ‘video shot by any PNF employee who was at the Yarnell fire’ still remains to be seen… but I think this proves WHY those other three Non-Helmet Camera videos probably ended up included in THIS release. They weren’t specifically what you could call ‘Helmet Camera’ videos… but they WERE videos taken by a PNF employee ( Hulburd ) in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
** A WORD ABOUT THESE FILENAMES
I am feeling the need to mention something about the filenames for these first three videos in the 21 just released by USFS.
The filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
It is pretty much ‘normal’ for a lot of video/audio capable devices to use this
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE style format for auto-naming the files
being saved to the memory card.
That in no way really tells us exactly what KIND of device was being used.
However… something is still a little odd.
If any device is using this kind of DATE + TIME format for actually naming files…
it is bascially IMPOSSIBLE for it to really only have been…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE
It pretty much HAD to have been at least…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE + SECOND.
Here is why.
You can’t possible expect a file naming scheme for a photo/video capable device to work when it can’t stamp the filenames down to at least the SECOND.
Anyone could take multiple photos/videos within a one minute timeframe and you also cannot possibly ever have TWO filenames on a memory card ( or even a hard drive ) with the EXACT same filename(s).
So if that device really was never using the SECONDS value for the filename stamping… it would have also have had to have been able to distinguish files all taken within the same minute with some kind of NAMING convention like this…
0630131532
0630131532(1)
0630131532(2)
0630131532(3)
Etc…
EACH of these first THREE files in this latest USFS evidence dump are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds long ( to within a few hundreths of a second ), and that is still not possible to achieve with the human hand working a shutter button… but I also still have no good explanation for that.
We would need to know more about the actual device in use to know more about that and whether it indicates any kind of ‘tampering’ with the original videos.
But… I still get the feeling that we are not seeing the ACTUAL (original) filenames for these first 3 videos in the recent ‘evidence dump’.
Each video is 29.8 ( Call it 30 ) seconds long… but the timestamps are all on consecutive MINUTE values ( 1532, 1533, 1534 ).
In order to believe these filenames are all exactly the way they originally were on the device’s memory card… that means we also have to believe that Aaron Hulburd ( or whoever took them ) also PAUSED for ( at least ) 30 seconds in-between each video filmed, and never tried to shoot anything that had the same MINUTE value for a start time.
I guess that’s possible… but regardless… something still tells me we are still not seeing the SECONDS value of the original filenames… which means these filenames themselves have been (essentiallly) ‘altered from the originals’.
That would be even more reason to question whether this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS really represents the original material they have in their possession… and whether it is, in fact, a full legal fulfillment of a valid FOIA request.
** MORE ABOUT THE UTVS
The rest of this is just for completeness sake and shows how we CAN know what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s and Jason Clawson’s UTVs really looked like.
The new M2U00xxx videos also finally give us better looks at the UTVs that belonged to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson that day… which has made it easier to identify them as the same ones that can seen for a few frames in the other 0630131532, 33 and 34 videos.
The M2U00267 video is 2 minutes and 18 seconds long.
At +1:36, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell turn around and start walking backing EAST to where their 2 UTV’s are parked back in the actual St. Joseph Shrine parking log.
The rest of the video is just them walking all the way back to where theri UTV’s are parked and the closer they get… the better you can see the 2 (parked) UTV’s.
The one on the LEFT belongs to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and is the one with the RED hood and fenders on it. It has BOTH a roll-cage and a windshield frame on it. It is also the one with two front seats and the one that Aaron Hulburd also travels when they all move around.
The UTV on the RIGHT is Jason Clawson’s. It appears to be pretty much the same make/model as Yowell’s with identical front grill and headlights, but it does NOT have either a roll-cage or a windshield frame installed ( at least not on that day ). It is all olive-drab. It also appears to have some ‘gear’ in the front which would make it hard for two people to travel in it… so that is probably why Aaron Hulburd was always traveling in the other UTV with Yowell whenever they were ‘moving around’ in these UTVs that day.
At about +2:09 or +2:11 ( in video M2U00267 ) is the best closeup view of BOTH of these UTVs sitting side-by-side.
When they reach the 2 UTV’s… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell moves towards the one on the left ( with the red fenders ) to get into the driver’s seat.Aarron Hulburd ( still filming ) is right behind Yowell and gets very close to him at this point and this is when you can clearly see that Hulburd’s camera has NOT been mounted on his Helmet for this video.
The camera lens is actually at about the same height as Yowell’s right elbow… which means it was probably clipped to Hulburd’s front shirt pocket while he was filming this M2U00267 video.
So whatever Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot these M2U00xxx videos that have come to be known as the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos probably wasn’t an actual brand-name Helmet Camera at all.
It is more likely it is just a device that is easily CLIPPED to things like a Helmet Bracket, or a short pocket, or whatever.
It it still important to know exactly WHAT device that was… what KIND of EXIF metadata SHOULD have been present in the video files themselves… and why NONE of that metadata has been included in what was supposed to be a valid fulfillment of a fully legal FOIA request.
Wow… I think WordPress really is starting to go brain-dead again.
That ENTIRE comment up above with new information about the first 3 newly released videos was NOT supposed to appear where it did.
It was submitted as a new ‘parent comment’ and just somehow showed up here as well.
See above for the ‘parent comment’ version of this same posting with better formatting.
That’s why I’m no longer posting anything of substance here until the new chapter comes up.
I’m glad I got to go to an awesome dance performance before writing that.
And, I think what was happening over the west edge of the fire, as Granite Mountain was hiking down into their doom in that bowl full of explosive fuels, was even more complicated than what was happening over Shrine Road and the Youth Camp.
And was all this complicated fire/weather/topography PREDICTABLE?
IMHO a resounding YES and NO!!
There you have it from the High Priestess of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta Weather Wizards.
Marti… see below.
The atmospheric scientists at the University of Arizona were actually ‘up early’ on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013 and doing what they do.
Running computer models.
One of them predicted EXACTLY what was going to happen… right to within the HOUR of when it actually came to pass.
NONE of those ‘computer models’ ever made it through proper channels ( that day ) to the people who really needed to know about it… such as Arizona Forestry Dispatch.
So, did I get it right?
Yes I did!
Thanks dad!
Somebody needs to actually really investigate this fire.
Well… from a meteorological viewpoint… people HAVE.( and given its HISTORIC nature… will continue to do so ).
The following is just ONE ( excellent ) professional report on what really happened that day. I’ve never seen so many detailed images, maps, charts and explanations about what happened that day all in one place…
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-yarnell-hill-fire-meteorological.html
From the article…
————————————————————-
The Yarnell Hill Fire: The Meteorological Origins
This morning I took a look at the meteorology associated with the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona on Sunday, and the more I dug into it, the more disturbed I got. You will see why as I explain.
From what I can glean from news reports, the fire blew up around 4-5 PM Sunday (June 30th). A nearby observation site (RAWS station) was located about 5 miles away. The observations, shown below, indicates a profound wind shift from south to north around 5 PM associated with a sudden increase of wind gusts to just over 40 mph. Solar radiation dropped rapidly at the same time, indicating a sudden increase in cloudiness.
The origin of this sudden increase in wind is clear: outflow from a line of convection (thunderstorms) that had developed during the preceding hours and which was moving to the southwest. Here are some satellite images for the hours preceding and during the terrible accident (the circle indicates the location of the fire).
( Series of Satellite images… all explained in detail ).
( snip )
There is often an outflow of cooler air moving away from convection…the leading edge is known as a gust front (see figure). Downdraft air from thunderstorms spread out as it hits the surface, producing strong winds. It appears that there was such strong outflow from this convection that caused the winds to shift rapidly from southerly to northerly and to increase suddenly in speed (to 43 mph at the nearby station).
A measure of the potential for strong downdrafts and gust fronts is something called downdraft convective available potential energy (DCAPE). The sounding at Flagstaff has values of around 1600 J per Kg, which is very high (anything above 1000 can produce strong downdrafts).
(snip)
So it is apparent what occurred ..first the winds were from the south, followed by a rapid shift of 180 degrees, sudden increase of winds to over 40 mph, and the fire blew up and reversed direction.
(snip)
You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling. Hours before the incident it was clear there was a real threat…satellite and radar showed developing convection to the north that was moving south towards the fire. High-resolution numerical models showed a threat. Were there any meteorologists working the fire? If not, why not? This terrible tragedy needs to be reviewed carefully.
A number of media outlets called the strong winds unpredictable and random. This is not correct, as shown by the information I provided above.
————————————————————-
Followup…
The really SAD part, as well… is that not only do post-fire examinations of the conditions prove that everything that happened was perfectly predictable that day…
…it was all also perfectly predicted THAT MORNING… by meteorologists at the Universty of Arizona who were ‘up early’ that morning and doing what they do… running computer models.
The computer models ( that morning ) got it ‘right’ to within one hour of what actually ended up happening.
Sadly… this information never made it out to Arizona Forestry that day.
The USATODAY news article where this was first reported…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/02/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation/2483571/
From the article…
———————————————————-
The weather combined with fuel loads to create a deadly combination.
Meteorologists at the University of Arizona in Tucson ran models the morning of the fire predicting to within an hour the terrifying conditions the hotshots would confront.
“One model showed 45-knot (52 mph) winds and rapidly changing wind direction. It is a worst-case scenario for firefighting. They were the most dangerous conditions you could have in Arizona,” said research meteorologist Mike Leuthold at the university’s Institute of Atmospheric Physics.
In the real world, winds from the southwest were gusting at 15 to 25 mph at 4:01 p.m. PST Sunday at the monitoring station near the blaze. An hour later, winds were gusting at 30 to 47 mph from the northeast.
The worst was coming. During the monsoon — a meteorological event that happens during the summer throughout the Southwest — the searing desert temperatures force columns of hot air high into the atmosphere, Leuthold and National Weather Service meteorologists said.
The higher these plumes climb, the more chance they have for lifting embers and dispersing them widely. They also increase the chance of dry lightning strikes.
On Sunday, meteorologists measured the thermals as high as 22,000 feet, halfway through the atmosphere. The readings were among the highest they’d ever seen. In early fire reports, lightning was blamed for starting the Yarnell Hill Fire on Friday. And in Rim Country and near Prescott, the thunderstorms bring massive downdrafts of air — pushing huge gusts of air and reversing winds.
That’s exactly what happened Sunday.
Brian Klimowski, the National Weather Service’s meteorologist in chief in the Flagstaff division, said local topography could channel winds into even stronger gusts, making fire behavior more unpredictable.
The Weather Service provides twice-daily fire weather forecasts for each region. In large fires, the service also provides spot forecasts for specific fire locations upon request.
Firefighters did make forecast requests for the Yarnell Hill Fire, which Klimowski’s team updated twice a day, he said. In addition, the Weather Service also called firefighters twice Sunday afternoon warning about the likelihood of thunderstorms and high winds.
—————————————————————-
So it is known that ‘regular weather reports’ were being delivered… but somehow the actual ‘computer model’ that was done that morning was never fully passed on to the people who needed to know about it.
It was RIGHT ( to within the hour ) about EXACTLY what was going to happen.
“Meteorologists at the University of Arizona in Tucson ran models the morning of the fire predicting to within an hour the terrifying conditions the hotshots would confront.”
That’s really, really sad.
Hmm. I hadn’t seen THIS one. Thanks!
“Brian Klimowski, the National Weather Service’s meteorologist in chief in the Flagstaff division, said local topography could channel winds into even stronger gusts, making fire behavior more unpredictable.”
That’s what I meant by, Was it predictable? YES and NO.
You can predict, generally, what’s going to happen. They ran a NUMBER of models. That’s how you get the PROBABILITIES.
The topography shapes it on the ground, the localized micro-effects. That’s what you can’t predict from that kind of modeling.
You can’t predict that at 4:22 the wind would be blowing through the Youth Camp from the west at 45 mph.
You can’t predict that it would take five more minutes for the wind to be blowing through the tops of the trees at about 30 mph as Aaron filmed them from the Shrine.
You can’t predict exactly when the wind, as the fire is rotating through that topography, would turn the fire the additional 30 degrees or so that it took to blow the fire right up the bowl at the exact time it spared “main street” Yarnell (where it was headed about ten minutes before that, and hit Glen Ilah, instead.
You can’t predict when the fire, pushing right toward the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School, will turn just enough to spare the Post and start burning more eastward to threaten the homes on Sickles Road, so that you have to scramble a bunch of last-minute resources to get them down there in time to work with retardant drops.
But you CAN predict, after observing the fire and the general topography from the air, as Bravo 3 did at around noon, that, given the most-likely combination of monsoon weather plus topography, that combination would EASILY cause the fire to change direction, and start burning UPHILL, finally, towards Yarnell “that afternoon.”
Also, did you catch that little nugget about the NIMO? That’s the first I ever read about THAT.
“The investigative team will consist of up to 10 people recruited from around the country from local, state and federal agencies, she [Carrie Dennett AZF] said.
The group will include a team leader, a fire-behavioral analyst who can describe how a fire accelerates, a fire-operations specialist, a safety specialist and a person to document the information, said Judith Downing of the U.S. Forest Service. A report will be published when the work is finished.
Downing, who arrived Monday in Arizona with a seven-member National Incident Management Organization team to assist in the operation, said the investigation will be independent.
“Our role is not to do the investigation,” Downing said. “Our role is to provide support to the state.””
I wonder if “assisting” included sitting the BR Hotshots down in a room and having them fill out their unit logs and gathering up, while interviewing the Peeples Valley Crew, the cd with the photos and videos Brandon took,
Ahem. Nothing to see here!
And I would LOVE to be able to predict exactly what ADOSH is going to do next.
Actually, that’s the article from which I first got my understanding of what happened.
You wrote:
“You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling. Hours before the incident it was clear there was a real threat”
Heck, the photos of the “fire on the mountain” the night before “the incident”, which everybody in Yarnell was watching, made it clear there was “a real threat”!
Obviously Marti I would graduate you from Fire Weather 101
But you are qualified to teach it…
And yes all fore have a meteorologist assigned to the Fire
can’t remember his name from earlier but he sent the afternoon report predicting the increased activity no surprise on fire weather info some did not heed it.
Yes. That was Byron Kimball, the Fire Behavior Analyst.
They didn’t have a Fire Weather Meteorologist (I forget the technical IMT title).
Type 2 SHORT teams don’t include one of them.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 16, 2014 at 8:07 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling.
>> Hours before the incident it was clear there was
>> a real threat”
>>
>> Heck, the photos of the “fire on the mountain” the
>> night before “the incident”, which everybody in
>> Yarnell was watching, made it clear there
>> was “a real threat”!
And Darrell Willis’ own Unit Log entries between 1:30 AM and 3:30 AM prove that he was noting how ACTIVE the fire was… even at that hour of the morning.
In his 3:30 AM entry Willis also acknowledges first hearing that a ‘team’ was being put together and he was informed they would all be arriving in about 3 1/2 hours ( 7:00 AM )… but no one there in Yarnell overnight really seemed all that concerned about what TYPE of team it was… or whether it was going to be adequate… or whether this ‘highly active fire even in the middle of the night’ should have made any difference about the horsepower of the TEAM being ordered up for the next day.
Also… just for the record…
I think I messed up the reprint of that article up above.
The article is actually “quoted” all the way down to the dashed lines and not where I typed any (snip) markers.
I ( me, personally ) did NOT say…
“You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling.
Hours before the incident it was clear there was
a real threat”
That was actually still the professional meteorologist that was studying the fire talking there.
Even HE was astounded that more serious WARNINGS were not given out to the men who were in harm’s way that day.
Yes. Darrell was seriously concerned. Maybe that had to do with him keeping close touch with Jason, sensing the wrong decision had been made the night before, and knowing Bea’s team (which he was actually a part of) was having to come down to fill in all the holes they could.
Still bugz me, however, that, given that concern, he wasted all that time and resources defending what was, essentially an indefensible space.
That seems to me to be seriously non-strategic, all things considered.
And I have a hard time believing he didn’t hear that noon-ish B 3 communique to Rance that the fire was going to reverse itself that afternoon and head to Yarnell.
Especially since B 3 (and possibly also Air Attack Rory Collins before him) was communicating with him on Air To Ground regarding the retardant drops.
I think he most likely would have been, relatively speaking, prioritizing Air To Ground on his radio.
And also, that makes it make even more sense that the Three Prescotteers would have headed over to film what was essentially Darrell’s Firing Operation on Model Creek Road.
The 2:30 video was capturing radio coms related to Darrell’s operation at Double A Bar Ranch.
He was paying attention to what Darrell, a Bea Day Team OPS, was doing,
I bet Darrell was one of the very first people Jason got in touch with when he got to the fire.
I agree with everything you said here, but to me the emphasis is that none of this was that unusual, either. I experienced gusts of 50+ yesterday, for instance, and it doesn’t even make for good beer conversation because it’s part of life. And they changed direction from time to time. Storms roll off the rim there regularly that time of year. That storm rolled off almost exactly according to forecast, winds included. Extreme fire behavior is correct, but not extreme weather, unless one characterizes a normal, forecast storm that behaved as expected as extreme.
Exactly.
But see what I wrote above about what you CAN predict and what you CAN’T predict.
I have an old photo of my dad, sitting on a log in the Pecos Wilderness, where we were on horseback, staring at a thunderstorm developing over a ridge we had planned to cross to get back to our camp. He was trying to figure out whether we should stick to our plan, or go a different, lower, longer way. Which we did.
The next day, we rode over that ridge and found, right next to the trail, an exploded pine tree.
He told me that photo was of the moment, when he finally realized, after about 30 years of weather forecasting in the southwest, he couldn’t really predict the behavior of a thunderstorm in the southwest. It was all just too complicated.
That was also about thirty years after he flew planes in and out of typhoons in the Pacific in order to do the math in order to produce the calculations which are still used today to fly in and out of and around typhoons and hurricanes.
Actually, come to think of it, we used to have long irony-filled conversations about which was more unpredictable–weather behavior or people behavior.
We mostly agreed it was a draw.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 15, 2014 at 2:18 pm
NOTE: This has been brought up down below from a thread running out of room.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And too bad we don’t have those disappeared photos and videos
>> from the Peeple’s Valley Crew. I’m sure they tell a wind story, too.
Yes. It’s unfortunate. That is still all VERY important evidence and no one seems to have any idea WHO actually ‘collected’ it all and WHERE it all ever ‘disappeared’ to.
However… the evidence we CAN still ‘see’ from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who also almost lost their lives in Yarnell that day DOES, in fact… tell a ‘wind story’ of its own.
From the ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ page – ‘Our Stories’ section…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/our_stories.html
Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon ( in his own words, and not
filtered through any reporter or media outlet )…
——————————————————————————————
I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out. Well, when I started the alarm, the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, “I want you to get these trucks out of here.”
I says, “I can’t do that.”
He said, “You have to do it now.”
And I said, “No. There’s six men still like a mile out into the forest and they need to come back to this safe zone, because this is where they know it is.”
And he said, “No. I’m telling you to leave now.”
I told my lookout, I said, “Go to their trucks and put the keys in the ignition and start the trucks so when they come running out of the woods and they get to their truck they don’t have to look for their keys.”
He said, “We’re not going to leave,” and I said, “Yeah, we’re going to leave but we’re going to drive very slow.”
Well he didn’t want to and I told him, “We have to. This is what we have to do.”
The next instant, the fire dropped right over the top of us like a gigantic hand and everything around us was on fire. It was pitch black. Matt could not even see the hood of the truck. You could see nothing. And there were fires and fireballs and flames in every direction.
And I said, “Start driving very slow.”
I turned on all my lights and started driving very slowly down this little path back to the Shrine. That was approximately 2 ½ miles. So we were just picking our way, really slow hoping that somebody would get to us or see the truck and get in.
Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.
We said, “We need to get our six men that are back there.” We didn’t have any radio contact with them because it was so loud. It was like being in the back of a jet aircraft on a runway.
So we were shouting at each other. About that time two Peeples Valley firefighters popped out through the black. And we got them over to the trucks and I said, “There’s still four more.”
So he jumped back up to his truck and went back up the road. And he was met with the ones coming out with their trucks. So we all did meet at the Shrine.
Our next point of deployment was to get to the Ranch House so we could make sure everybody’s safe. So we slowly drove our trucks to the Ranch House and met the congestion and confusion on Highway 89 with all the people being told to get out of town.
We were quite nervous at that. The winds were probably blowing between 40 and 50 mph, and we told them there’s not much for us to do. We made it to the Ranch House just when the fire came over the top of the highway by the Assembly of God Church and went up around the Ranch House.
So we started getting with the guys to fight the fire there. At that time, they were trying to set up a triage for anybody that got burned or suffered any trauma from this at the Ranch House, but the winds were just too great.
————————————————————————————–
Bob Brandan reports…
“The winds were blowing 40 and 50 mph”
“They were trying to set up triage… but the winds were just too great”.
** TONY SCIACCA WAS THE MYSTERIOUS ‘IC’ GIVING ORDERS TO BRANDON?
Also notice something interesting here.
We’ve never quite been able to identify who this mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ was who was telling Brandon to basically ‘abandon his own men’ and ‘get those trucks out of here now’.
We can NOW see… in the recently released Hulburd footage… that it is, indeed, ‘Big Dog’ Tony Sciacca standing right there ( in his white helmet ) alongside Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Brandon recalls TWO encounters with this person that he was (apparently) mis-identifying as an ‘Incident Commander’. Brandon may have simply misunderstood who that was because he might have had a ‘white helmet’ on… which he hadn’t seen so far that day in that Youth Camp location, so he was assuming he was some kind of ‘Incident Commander’ for Yarnell.
Brandon describes his FIRST encounter with this ‘Incident Commander’ person as
“…the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, ‘I want you to get these trucks out of here.’ ”
Brandon then describes the SECOND encounter with this (same) ‘Incident Commander’ person…
“Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.”
So now Brandon is saying they ‘met’ this (same) IC person again right there in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine after slowly driving the trucks out.
Well… according to the new Hulburd footage… that would be Tony Sciacca ( with his white helmet on ).
We can now SEE him ( Sciacca ) in the new Hulburd footage standing right there, exactly where Bob Brandon says he ‘met up’ with him in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
So… another mystery solved ( perhaps )?
The mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ person described by Bob Brandon as the one telling him to move the vehicles and, essentially, ABANDON his own men was, in fact, none other than ‘Big Dog’ Tony Sciacca himself?
Hmmm. Interesting catch.
I’m gonna have to leave soon, but quick thoughts.
I still have a REALLY hard time imagining Tony Sciacca doing that. He’s just not that kind of person or Incident Commander. Seriously. He let 15K extra acres burn on the Slide Fire (amidst a great public hue and cry about that) so he could keep the fire-fighters safe instead of having them fight the fire in the canyons.
And I don’t remember anything in his interview (off the top of my head) about going all the way up to the Youth Camp. He said he was, basically, trying to get all the crazy civilians to get out of Shrine Road.
And, quite frankly, to be perfectly honest, I’m not totally trusting Brandon’s account. There are like, what, five different accounts of this thing?
Which one is the correct one? Who knows??
This was a crew that Gary Cordes ordered to begin evacuating at 3:50. Apparently, according to Brandon’s account, they didn’t do that.
I don’t know how we can say anything definitive about this with the conflicted stories that are out there.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 15, 2014 at 5:49 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I still have a REALLY hard time imagining Tony Sciacca doing that.
>> He’s just not that kind of person or Incident Commander. Seriously.
I don’t know him. I can’t make statements like that one way or the other.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> He let 15K extra acres burn on the Slide Fire (amidst a great public
>> hue and cry about that) so he could keep the fire-fighters safe
>> instead of having them fight the fire in the canyons.
I know that you developed quite a high level of respect for this Sciacca guy when you were following his performance on that ‘Slide’ fire… but that was AFTER Yarnell. Maybe Yarnell itself is what caused him to be so cautious on ‘Slide’.
I would actually ASSUME it did. I mean… c’mon.
It’s not every day you are the designated Safety Officer on a fire… you show up LATE… and 19 men DIE on YOUR ‘Safety Officer’ watch.
It must have had SOME effect on him.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And I don’t remember anything in his interview (off the top of
>> my head) about going all the way up to the Youth Camp. He
>> said he was, basically, trying to get all the crazy civilians to
>> get out of Shrine Road.
That’s why I included the word ‘perhaps’ up above as to whether this ‘mystery’ about the ‘Incident Commander’ *might* now have been solved.
In his ADOSH interview Sciacca DOES say he ‘drove up that canyon and saw the Granite Mountain Buggies’. and he seems to mention seeing them ‘parked’…
But this is all about TIMING.
If Sciacca drove ‘up that canyon’ BEFORE the actual vehicle evacuations, then that means he saw the Granite Mountain buggies where they were parked at the Youth Camp… and that DOES place him exactly where he needed to be to be the one barking those orders to Bob Brandon and basically telling him to abandon his own men.
Don’t forget there IS a photo of someone in a WHITE Helmet standing all the way back there where the Granite Mountain buggies were parked and he’s interacting back there with Frisby and Brown in the Polaris Ranger. We still don’t know who THAT ‘white helmet’ really is.
However… if what Sciacca means by ‘seeing the Granite Mountain buggies’ means he ONLY saw them on their way OUT… then maybe he really never did get any farther than where we now see him in Hulburd’s video standing there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Only some more interviewing of Sciacca and/or the final appearance of some of that Peeples Valley evidence can really nail down who was really telling Bob Brandon to basically ‘abandon his men’.
If Sciacca was never back there at all… then WHO was the guy in the white helmet who we KNOW was ‘back there’ at the Youth Camp in that photo?
Anyway… here is exactly what Sciacca said to ADOSH about all this…
From page 15 of Tony Sciacca’s ADOSH interview…
——————————————————–
649 A: So when I – yeah, when I came around, trying to figure out who was in
650 Yarnell when that fire was coming there I wanted to see…
651
652 Q1: Right.
653
654 A: I pulled in. Sheriff had some evacuations going on.
655
656 Q1: Right.
657
658 A: And I drove up that canyon, that’s when I saw the Blue Ridge and the Granite
659 Mountain buggies.
660
661 Q1: Yeah.
662
663 Q2: Where were they? Could you – do you…
664
665 A: Uh, they were, uh, they were one canyon over from where the ranch house
666 was.
667
668 Q2: Okay.
669
670 A: That’s, uh…
672 ((Crosstalk))
673
674 Q1: Can you point on the map for that?
675
676 A: I don’t know if I can or not on that one.
677
678 Q2: Well if you know, here’s – this is the deployment site. Here’s the ranch
679 houses.
680
681 A: Okay, so it would have been up in the back of this community right – I believe
682 s- I was told by, uh, one of the Engine Captains there was a piece of dozer line
683 that I never saw that was in there some place and they – I saw – when I was up
684 in this little draw here, Blue Ridge came out with, uh, looked like they were
685 three engines, a water tender, Blue Ridge Hotshot buggies and Granite
686 Mountain Hotshot buggies. And everybody was driving out.
687
688 Q1: Coming out?
689
690 A: Coming out. And I was like, well I guess everybody’s in the buggies. You
691 don’t ask those questions.
692
693 Q1: Yeah, yeah.
694
695 Q2: You saw the – the Granite Mountain buggies come out?
696
697 A: Yeah well they were parked and Blue Ridge was bringing them out.
698
699 Q2: Blue Ridge was helping?
700
701 A: Yeah.
——————————————————–
By the way… this is a SIDENOTE but as long as I’m quoting Sciacca’s ADOSH interview… here is where Sciacca himself says the ‘outflow winds’ had most definitely ALREADY arrived and were ‘driving the fire’. on the very next page of his ADOSH interview transcript.
( As if we needed any more proof it WAS an intense wind-driven event )…
——————————————————–
766 Q2: Uh, firing. Did – were – were – were you – did you notice firing or what they
767 were doing for – were they bringing the thing down the – the east flank?
768
769 A: Was never engaged to that level. Was never up – like I said, my – by the time
770 I got done with Darrell and got around, it was already, you know, the winds
771 had kind of set in from a – the outflows had set in. And it was moving fire
772 pretty fast.
773
774 Q1: Right.
775
776 A: Um, toward, uh, toward the highway and then toward – you could see it was
777 coming in flanking into Yarnell.
778
779 Q1: Yeah.
780
781 Q2: So it went – it went east but then more south?
782
783 A: It kind of co- the wind kind of came out of the north, uh, yeah north, northeast
784 and just kind of pushed that fire to the southeast, uh, quarter toward the road
785 right into – right into the backside of Yarnell.
786
787 Q1: Right.
788
789 A: I mean it was – it was aggressive fire behavior for the chaparral.
790
791 Q1: Yeah.
792
793 Q2: Mm-hm.
794
795 A: Very aggressive.
796
797 Q1: Yeah. What kind of flame lengths were you seeing there, Tony?
798
799 A: Probably 30-60 feet in most of that stuff.
800
801 Q1: Uh-huh.
802
803 A: And, uh, you know, at the peak when I left Gary, we had a couple of gusts that
804 would just lay it over. And just, you could see the preheating and just, you
805 know, it was rapid. Rapid rates of spread.
807 Q1: Uh-huh.
808
809 A: Being – being wind driven. It’s a wind driven fuel that chaparral is.
810
811 Q2: Yep.
812
813 A: Wind driven.
———————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, quite frankly, to be perfectly honest, I’m not totally trusting
>> Brandon’s account. There are like, what, five different accounts
>> of this thing?
>>
>> Which one is the correct one? Who knows??
Yes… but I ( personally ) do trust his account of this mysterious person he was mistaking for an ‘Incident Commander’ ordering him to move those vehicles.
He told that story to the Prescott News reporter and allowed it to be printed publicly… and his own public account on the Yarnell Recovery Group BLOG matches… so I assume he’s probably telling the truth about that part, anyway.
Even the new Hulburd videos now back up Brandon’s account of how they drove ‘slowly’ to the Shrine parking lot and the men ‘caught up with them’.
We can actually SEE that group of men ‘catching up’ to one of those trucks right there in Hulburd’s video… just as Brandon described it happening.
One of the men ( on foot ) actually gives kind of a “What the fuck??” arm gesture to the engine in front of them as they finally caught up with it.
That matches Brandon’s account of the men actually being PISSED when they arrived at the Youth Camp and discovered that the others had actually been forced to obey this mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ and they really did move the vehicles out of the Youth Camp where the poor guys running for their lives out of Harper Canyon had expected them to be.
I don’t know WHO that firefighter is in the new Hulburd video giving that “What the fuck??” gesture to the engine in front of him as he catches up to it. It’s hard to see his face.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> This was a crew that Gary Cordes ordered to begin evacuating
>> at 3:50. Apparently, according to Brandon’s account, they didn’t do that.
I think there’s a fair amount of CYA going on over that, yes.
It still could be that Cordes told Esquibel to take care of that… but he didn’t.
Brandon’s account that he SAW Blue Ridge coming (literally) hauling ass ‘out of the forest’ and he then wondered “They are the professionals and we are just volunteers… what are they not telling us?” indicates to me that even if someone was SUPPOSED to tell all those Peeples Valley FFs to ‘evacuate’ before then… no one ever did.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t know how we can say anything definitive about this
>> with the conflicted stories that are out there.
Well… see above. I think the new Hulburd videos at least sort of VERIFY Brandon’s account of how the men he was told to ‘abandon’ out there in Harper Canyon finally did ‘catch up with them’. Some of the new Hulburd video now provides visual evidence of that happening exactly the way Brandon described it.
As for the ‘race for their lives’ on the part of those men who were working out at that far end of Harper Canyon… and whether it really was ‘Darby Starr’ who ‘saved them’ ( and received an award for it )… the only way to sort that out is with more ‘focused’ interviews or testimony.
I agree the only way to know for sure is re-interviewing.
Which is why I keep hoping that whatever further investigations are in the pipeline, they don’t just investigate the deployment incident.
All the other various places in which people ALMOST got injured, maimed, or killed, need to be just as carefully investigated.
And, yes, I’ll go back and compare that photo with that video. Having a visual bead on what Tony looked like on that fire is really helpful.
But I’ll tell you, those white helmets can be misleading. The video of Cougan and Rance standing by a fence has a guy in a white helmet standing next to them. Unfortunately, there’s no timestamp on that video.
But I need to do a whole bunch of other things first.
I was out doing defensible space and gardening and I am thinking who am I to question folks that are retired or current professionals? I am just the desert walker.
Professional integrity and ethical behavior is crucial for personal credibility and professional success within the business world. I am not a part of that world. I am sorry to Elizabeth Nowicki, Marti Reed and Bow Powers for ever questioning you all. I am a very independent stubborn individual and I see this whole thing in a different light that more details are present just not shown.
I am sorry!
Bow- Bob
oops
NO APOLIGY NESSARY
I am not sorry and you should not be either Joy. We were there that day and have been there too many times since that weekend with elite firefighters and experts. They have advised us and when we had questions they answered them. I am confident in their answers.
We did attend the Yarnell committee on building the memorial to the 19 on Shrine Rd. in Yarnell. A noble idea though estimates are 180 grand and above. Chuck Tidy thinks he can find some help on that. They did say that they would mention the tradgedy of the aftermath of the fire as well considering that 33 deaths have occurred–add another yesterday. That one was due to lung problems. I should say that has to be way above norm for deaths considering that Yarnell has a population of only 645 by 2014 census. Joy says there are more she has not counted yet.
Now about that idea of a fellow going down into that basin in six minutes or so. That is indeed possible considering that he was full of adrenalin and knowing that his fellows were lying there burned to death. That same hike we took with Bruce Hanna and Bret Steurer of OSHA. The were trying to determine times of going down just as they were and approximately where the GMHS went down. Bret managed it in 22 minutes and we know he was in good physical condition since he also runs the marathon. Unfrotunately Bruce fell on the steep decline and his injury slowed him to 33 minutes and Joy was just ahead of him by 3 minutes.
Now going down in the black is much quicker than battling the boulders, brush and steepness that was there before the fire. Add 100F temperatures, a full pack of 40 pounds, a hard hat, and a bulky 30 pound chain saw and 18 men ahead of you and god only knows how many fell like Bret then you can imagine how slow progress had to have been.
Just chiming in with a few points here…
>> sonny said…
>>
>> Now about that idea of a fellow going down into that basin
>> in six minutes or so. That is indeed possible considering that
>> he was full of adrenalin and knowing that his fellows were
>> lying there burned to death.
At the moment Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown arrived at the top of the saddle and the ‘Descent Point’ location… even DPS medic Eric Tarr ( who was now already standing down there at the deployment site ) says in his signed deposition that he (quote) “Saw some firefighters appear at the top of the ridge and I waved them down”.
Captain Brown did NOT know the men were dead, at that point.
I believe Captain Brown ( like many Hotshots ) also had some EMT training in his background.
So he basically THREW himself down that slope, at that point, perhaps thinking that some/all of those men WERE still alive and badly in need of anyone with any EMT training.
Trueheart Brown was also in extraordinary shape… even as Hotshots go.
He is/was an avid Bike Racer… and I don’t mean out for a Sunday drive.
He regularly participates in those grueling distance runs.
The new Hulburd footage also now shows us that when he and Brian Frisby were ‘breaking through’ the fireline on the ground rescue mission… they did NOT have ‘packs’ on… so it can also be assumed that when Captain Brown reached the Descent Point and RAN down that slope… it was without a pack on to slow him down in any way.
Did not know that about Brown – checked and he is a Cat 1 racer, i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
Did not know that about Brown. Checked and he a cat 1 racer – i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
Did not know that about Brown. Checked and he is a cat 1 racer, i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
He’s not just out there ‘riding along with the big boys’.
He has actually WON a number of these ‘Type 1’ bicycling events.that he has participated in. That ain’t shabby.
You do not even get to be a Cat 1 racer without having some serious results. You have to earn it.
And I imagine he has done it training less than 6 months out of every year – most of those he would race against train year round. His results would suggest his race season is about 3 months long (although am not sure how much racing there is in Arizona in June through August). In the videos he looks like a cyclist – he is rail-thin.
You don’t own me an apology for anything!
We all have our different backgrounds, skill sets, perspectives, valuable knowledge, opinions, mistakes, values, hassle factors, emotional ways, anger and frustration thresholds etc.
That’s why when this conversation works, and everybody is treating everybody with respect, it really goes quite well. I think we’ve done an amazing job.
Even when we disagree.
That’s why I love doing this. It’s quite a remarkable campfire circle.
And I’m glad you’re here!
As we still try to ‘get our heads around’ exactly what was ‘released’ publicly by the USFS ( via Arizona Forestry ) just last Saturday…
…I am feeling the need to CLARIFY something.
It was actually ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) who posted the first ‘heads up’ message about this new material back on October 11… but I think a lot of people jumped to a (wrong) conclusion about ADOSH’s possible involvement with ‘the release’.
Let me just reprint again that initial ‘heads up’ post from RTS on October 11…
————————————————————————–
On October 11, 2014 at 8:28 pm, Robert the Second said…
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
————————————————————–
Notice above that BOTH time RTS refers to ADOSH in the message he was careful to add a QUESTION MARK after that ADOSH acronym.
That means RTS himself ( and/or his source ) was NOT SURE whether ADOSH was really involved with this upcoming ‘release’ or not.
RTS was doing the best he could to pass on some information he had… but it’s obvious that even his own sources weren’t quite sure what AGENCY might be actually involved with that ‘upcoming release’.
So it remains a ‘mystery’ whether ADOSH was either informed or involved in this new ‘evidence dump’ in any way.
Marshal Krotenberg ( lead investigator for the ADOSH Yarnell case ) might have been just as astonished as the rest of us to learn, last Saturday, that the US Forestry Service ( and Arizona Forestry ) have ALWAYS ( and most likely still are ) withholding crucial evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people who were tasked ( by law ) with investigating this incident.
I’d love to actually hear ADOSH make some kind of ‘statement’ about what just happened last Saturday.
They are ABOUT to actually ‘review’ their findings as per the official legal request to do so that was filed by Arizona Forestry.
That ‘legal request for a review of the findings’ that the Arizona Attorney General’s office sent to ADOSH on behalf of Arizona Forestry actually says they think the findings should be ‘reversed’ because they think ADOSH made conclusions that were (quote) “Not based on substantive evidence”.
Now… last Saturday… Arizona Forestry itself just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that both THEY and the US Forestry Service have always been ‘withholding substantive evidence’ from ADOSH while they were actually DOING their investigation.
Talk about a Catch-22 here.
Someone is asking someone else to change their minds about their conclusions because they think they didn’t have enough evidence… but that same someone who was supposed to GIVE them the evidence they needed is now proving they were always WITHHOLDING a lot of it from them in the first place.
You just can’t make this shit up.
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall of THAT office!!!
Beaufort Scale: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html
When someone alleges that there were 40 mph or 45 mph outflow-boundary winds being felt by the guys on the ground at the YHF at 4:22 p.m., it can be helpful to go back to the multiple VIDEOS from that exact time period to see if they show visual EVIDENCE of winds of that magnitude at that particular time.
Specifically, the Beaufort Scale suggests that outflow-boundary winds of 40 to 45 mph would be evident in videos taken by guys at the fire by way of us seeing branches BREAKING off of trees and being moved through the air or lightweight lawn furniture falling/flying and WFFs being pushed or physically posturing to brace against the wind. An ATV or UTV trailer being pulled in 45 mph wind, for example, is going to show evidence of such. (While a heavy trailer might be immune to 45 mph outflow-boundary winds, a lightweight horse trailer or UTV trailer will not.)
I mention this in part because Bob indicated below that he believes that someone mentioning in their unit log that they felt 45 mph (or 40 mph) winds at 4:22 p.m. at the YHF means that there were ACTUALLY 45 mph (or 40 mph) winds at 4:22 p.m. from an alleged outflow-boundary being felt by the person who wrote the unit log hours or days later. It doesn’t.
P.S. I had said “Buford” scale previously, but I meant “Beaufort.” Sorry for the confusion. Common science/sence/sense.
See my reply below Elisabeth addressed to me——–
Also note at 9:50 RTS left a note to Marti that accesses the Stanton Weather station history
access that the June 30, 2013 date and see the weather record from the closest station to the Fire.
As I posted down below:
40 mph winds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKnSyeby4s
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 15, 2014 AT 12:01 PM
Shooting in a 30mph wind!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vlONSxbDKQ
Good find, Marti. At the point where he gets behind the ‘trees’… both the SOUND and the MOVEMENT of the trees matches almost exactly what can be observed on a SUSTAINED basis in almost ALL of the Aaron Hulburd video footage.
There are actually places in Hulburd’s videos where the effect of the SUSTAINED wind on the trees around them is MUCH more dramatic than even this ’30 mph’ example.
Also… the ABC15 Helicopter footage totally supports these kind of SUSTAINED WINDS down there on the ground throughout the entire time that the ‘Air15’ chopper was over Yarnell that day ( 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM ).
I vote 30.
Although the wind could have been faster at the Youth Camp, where Tyson was, than further down Shrine Road where Aaron was.
Topography.
And since they were doing hourly local weather measurements at the Youth Camp sawing site, Tyson’s 45 mph could have actually been a measurement, rather than a memory.
And for simple sake out away from town and trees in the open brush flats of 6 to 10 ft. brush very well could be over 40 with the open conditions, Topography and fire conditions.
Pushing that fire into an upslope confine canyon would be like turning a
freight train loose. Common fire weather, fuels, topography and wind in a canyon/ chimney environment. Above 20MPH it is just Hell you don’t want to be any where near that environment.
Marti, I am not seeing outflow boundary winds at 4:22 p.m. that are in the range of 30 mph. What video are you seeing that in? Could you please point me to it, because, again, I am not seeing that in ANY of my videos?
(In the later videos, we see indrafting or convection winds (as opposed to outflow boundary winds) that are probably pretty high speeds, but 4:22 p.m. is the specific time that Bob Powers referenced, so I am trying to stay in THAT time frame, and not look at, say, 4:30 p.m. or so.)
Elizabeth… what ARE you trying to say?
I’m assuming you have NOT looked at even all of the new videos just released last Saturday. Please go do so again. Watch ALL of them… and pay attention to the TREES.
Also… go watch the ABC15 Helicopter footage again ( ALL of it ) and pay close attention to what it is showing happening on the ground.
Regardless…
Are you trying to say that the wind was NOT driving this fire that day in a forceful and dramatic way?
Is THAT what you are actually ( seriously?) trying to say?
Anything with trees in it on Shrine Road. Aaron was actually zooming in on them.
I was the high priestess of the Weather Wizards of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta for ten years.
I know how to read wind.
Take a deep breath She ain’t done yet
FF have a training S course on weather and how to read wind speed from observation.
They also carry a field pack to take on ground observation of
Wind, Temp, Humidity and Fuel moisture.
Several people were using these tools at Yarnell
Local weather at the fire can be some what different than Station weather away from the fire.
This is also based on the influence of local factors and even the Fire its self.
Yep.
Reoly to Bob Powers post on
November 15, 2014 at 1:12 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Take a deep breath She ain’t done yet
Done with WHAT?
Trying to establish that the wind ( regardless of exact, precise speeds at all locations ) was NOT a major factor in the rapid spread of the fire that day?
Seriously?
Been there this past summer Yup!!!!
Start here:
M2U00264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75k7o_L6B8&list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1&index=17
Go further.
Marti,
Good catch. You want to focus on the winds at treetop level and not at the surface level
And at 0.52 seconds you hear OPS Musser saying “40 mile and hour winds at Skull Valley right now …”
Skull Valley is less than 20 air miles due north of Yarnell.
Exactly.
The ground is protected by the trees.
You look up in the canopy to see the wind.
And it’s definitely blowing.
And too bad we don’t have those disappeared photos and videos from the Peeple’s Valley Crew. I’m sure they tell a wind story, too.
Marti… there’s a longer post about this up above but here are just two quotes in the PUBLIC testimony we CAN see from Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon… who almost lost his own life that day in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp / Shrine Road area…
“The winds were blowing 40 and 50 mph (in Harper Canyon)”
“They were trying to set up triage ( along Highway 89 ) but the winds were just too great”.
Gotcha!
I think the winds were blowing harder at the Youth Camp because of that west to east drainage leading right to the Youth Camp and then the pull of both Harper Canyon and the draw further to the east beyond where they were sawing under that boulder hill.
I live in a wind-path kind of like that myself. It was the main reason I could never hang plants on my porch.
If it’s blowing anywhere in Albuquerque, whether from the east or the west, I’m getting pummeled.
I also think it’s interesting that Tyson’s saying the winds were from the west.
Given that the winds were, overall, turning the fire clockwise from the northeast to the southwest.
I may know a lot about reading wind, but I don’t know enough about this kind of really complicated fire-weather to be able to figure that out.
Marti.
Have you noticed the flag across the street from the Ranch House in the Story and Tham photos as well as the Russ Reason video?
A little off topic, but interesting.
Thx! I’ll check.
I can look out my window, across the street during the Balloon Fiesta, and tell whether or not they’re going to fly balloons that morning.
And, also, whether or not they SHOULD.
TO ALL:
This red-herring seems to be accomplishing it’s intended goal.
Which of the many red-herrings are you speaking of?
I’m looking at my list.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
You are even more DELUSIONAL than I thought. Now you include Mike in there as well. And furthermore, you are so far off base on all your other meaningless blather as to totally ruin any credibility that you once had. You should maybe look into become a fiction writer Where do you come up with this stuff? Maybe you should seek mental health treatment.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE THIS WOMAN YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS EVEN THOUGH SHE WILL DO HER VERY BEST TO CONVINCE YOU WITH HER ‘JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS SIREN CALL’ TO DO OTHERWISE. I HAD TO BLOCK HER FROM MY EMAIL DUE TO HER HARASSING AND STALKING OF ME.
try and post this…5th attempt. even with the recent links and statements from WWTKTT in answering a question of Elizabeth if Frisby ran down in four minutes and yes I said Frisby because that is how it was put to me yesterday by Elizabeth so I contacted Frisby on topic and as well now request to witness this 5min30sec nowadays not on a night where for a couple of hours they are searching for the men and radio traffic is chaotic and so many are heightened with concern and its getting dark and a fierce flame is all around…This new name guy maybe with specific physiological actions in the sympathetic nervous system, both directly and indirectly through the release of adrenaline and to a lesser extent noradrenaline from the medulla of the adrenal glands. These catecholamine hormones facilitate immediate physical reactions by triggering increases in heart rate and breathing, constricting blood vessels. An abundance of catecholamines at neuroreceptor sites facilitates “Superman” moments. There is times when you are stressed you look back and go WOW, I did that? Let me see the same person do that today. So if you are working on facts than you gotta realize we dropped off that mountain and finally no more fire in sight for us and away from area at 3:33pm and let me say the GMHS did not have the same fast speed as this new name mentioned here because they were not running and searching for 19 possible fatalities. I challenge the person to redo that moment today because like Sonny told me Bruce Jenner in high heels or not could not even do that before the fire so it is a point you will not have us change our mind. Yet HOW about the two men going down that spot today and see how well they do. I use to drop off places MOST would use proper ropes and call it rock climbing and I use to be a stunt cheerleader and people said HOW THE HELL did you just do that? I know all about adrenaline because before my health bull bologna I was a junkie for the unusual stunts. Pure Adrenaline Awesomeness was me. Apples and oranges really. You would not say LSD is stronger than like amphetamine, there is no basis with just that statement. So to me, until I see those men redo that in a state of mind unlike that horrific afternoon I have no room to here what “appears” as facts is what it is…in their “Superman” adrenaline moment about to be choked up with grief and that smell I heard was so bad there at the site. Many I have known would never bunji stunt jump with me in the day…my body loves the intense rush. So again keep with your views and I accept it. Yet I have my own. Also again remember one of the YCSO and I hope you are reading this was very close to one of the GMHS and you were there in the aftermath and you are now cold and cut off a unit of folks you knew for over 2 decades—WHY??? what did you see when you arrived? What can’t you say? You have to understand you may have your sources out there but as the hiker we have met people that tells me there IS more to that afternoon than that SAIR and the SAIT did a great disservice. If Frisby and the other guy decide to redo that saddle run, I will let you know the time they did. Please do not think it is not impossible for them to redo it because we have asked some locals to give photos for how long and it finally SLOWLY happening…Now I do not need any more emails on topic. You want to email Sonny than go at it- sonnygilligan19@gmail.com
You want to talk on another topic- sure but we are done on this topic. I agree to disagree.
Truly.
Once, when I was much younger, I had to jump out of a pick-up truck pulling a trailer with my appaloosa in it, and push a boulder (the nearest rock I could find) under the wheel of the truck because it was starting to roll backwards downhill and the emergency brake had gone out.
After I did that, I just was in shock. Total adrenalin rush.
I could never had done that in “Normal.
I noted down below that Elizabeth is at it again that every body on here is Fred again and there fore what they say is just Fred getting back at her.
Do any of you truly believe that John would allow one person to assume several aliases on here?
Do you believe that I am a close friend of Fred and talk to him on the Phone quite often?
There fore I know that Mike, SR, and Fire20+ are 3 seperiate people and RTS is 1 person who is a close friend.
Elizabeth wants to discredit RTS and she has gone to a Paranoia state to do it.
She has totally lost control.
Lets get back to the investigation which is way more important than one persons vendetta for what ever reason………..
As I did last night… if Elizabeth ( or anyone ) asks a reasonable question ( like where a piece of evidence is located )… I will answer that question.
I will have reasonable exchanges with anyone who our incredibly patient host, Mr. John Dougherty, sees fit to allow to comment here.
That’s just called ‘being civil’.
It’s the ‘off the medication’ stuff that needs to stop.
Let’s remember that Elizabeth in the past has also accused TTWARE and WTKTT of being the same person. There are all sorts of people on the web. I’d like to note one thing. She now claims that multiple people on here “hate” her. I sure don’t. I am more than annoyed by the way she has imo tried to disrupt dialogue and cloud facts. But, I do hope she gets whatever it is sorted and stowed.
I don’t know if WTKTT was as pissed-off as I was when the accusations were repeatedly made about us, but I do have to applaud his apparent decision back then, to not get into THAT conversation, however, I wish at least one time, he would have stood up and told Elizabeth how full of shit she was on that issue.
Has anyone else ever noticed that EN seems to jump in when ever a topic gets hot and heavy, and then takes the subject- matter off on a tangent based on iffy facts, and then when the facts are proven incorrect, she attacks the messenger, seemingly trying to keep people off the topic at hand.
Almost like she’s on a specific mission to do just that. I wonder what that’s all about?
One word EXACTLY ………………………………
Reply to TTWARE post on November 15, 2014 at 10:45 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I don’t know if WTKTT was as pissed-off as I was when the
>> accusations were repeatedly made about us,
Nope. I wasn’t. Didn’t bother me in the least.
>> but I do have to applaud his apparent decision back then to
>> not get into THAT conversation,
I have said this before but I actually participate in a LOT of ‘investigative’ forums like this… and compared to some other ones… this one is still very much just a ‘polite tea party’.
There are ALWAYS people on these kinds of public forums who get more obsessed with finding out who people who chose to post anonymously really are than they are able to ‘stick to the topics’ being discussed.
It happens all the time.
Those people are called TROLLS.
They have ‘other agendas’ contrary to the purpose of the forum itself… and they simply just love to hear themselves talk.
If the moderator of a forum sees fit to allow their messages through… you just have to learn to scroll past them.
As we who live online always say:
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!!!
Yes…. but it’s also true that SOMETIMES you just can’t resist.
Feeding a TROLL and watching them ‘go off’ can be considered a ‘New age’ form of entertainment.
All things in moderation, however.
We should just all change our names to “Fred” on here and be done with it.
I can pretty well recognize everybody’s “voices” on here anyway.
M2Uoo271
At approximately the 34 second mark, Frisby says that Eric DECIDED to take the trail along the ridge.
He then says he went in to tie in with Eric and came across the lookout.
1. Does this mean Eric decided to head south along the trail, leaving the black before Mcdonough was picked up?
2. Does anyone else agree that Frisby and PNF guys can be seen with their shirt sleeves rolled up? Just curious
First, you are right on the sleeves – Frisby has his rolled once it looks like. True Brown has his down. The sleeves thing seems to be getting a little too much attention. It is important as a safety matter, but I do not think it necessarily tells us what really happened on 6/30/13.
I think Frisby says Eric decided there was a trail – does not say when he or his crew was going to take it. If Marsh went down the trail right away, how was Frisby going to tie in with him. Lastly, I think McDonough may have already left his lookout spot when Frisby talked with Marsh and Marsh knew this (but not yet been picked up). Of course, it appears Marsh did not realize how much trouble McDonough was in.
Maybe I can clear up this Sleeve thing or maybe not—-
Fire shirts are some what genic—They are made in all sizes but sleeve lengths are not a tailor order thing. By that I mean some people have shorter arms than others and those people male a 1 roll on the sleeve to keep the sleeve out of the hand area.
So when FF are talking about the sleeves being rolled up we are talking about a large part of the lower arm exposed or more than the wrist. The gloves cover the wrist when on. Also the Velcro on the sleeve dose not on some people close enough to keep the shirt from getting in the way of the hands.
I say this because I have seen a few pictures of crews with the 1 roil that people are saying they have rolled up sleeves. Those are not what I have been talking about.
Rolled up sleeves that expose the arm are the main concern that I saw.
Calvin there is more information to what you asked we just have not seen it yet.
There is enough in background on these videos to give us some pause but not enough to fully understand the conversations. So we question again?????
Thanks guys.
Two of the PNF guys have their sleeves rolled up as far as they can go, basically. And I have seen numerous other crews on facebook with their sleeves rolled up.
Also if I am not mistaken, Frisby’s skin is visible on that video.
And that did not use to be the norm crew leaders trained there people to roll down sleeves and put gloves on before starting work. It is a safety requirement on the books and needs to be followed I have seen some crews that still follow the rules and some that do not
mistakes shirts are Generic— and Make a 1 roll
The sleeves on shirts has been a common problem for generations for some and many females have had the problem more than males. First we had buttons then Velcro on the sleeves.
DIV A and GM knew there was a trail (two-track) following the ridge-line because the two-track they hiked up on that morning ended at the T intersection of that ridge-line trail.
The fire and their work area was up a ways after turning right at that T.
The probable location for Marsh to meet with Frisby, would have been at that T intersection, and depending upon Marsh’s location, he would have had to hike the ridge-line trail in either one direction, or another, to get there.
Reply to The TTWARE post on November 15, 2014 at 8:47 am
>> TTWARE wrote…
>>
>> The fire and their work area was up a ways after
>> turning right at that T ( intersection ).
Exactly… and when Frisby and Brown drove up for that first face-to-face meeting which took place from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM… they ‘took that right’
at the ‘T’ intersection and continued on ( north on the high-ridge two-track itself ) in their Polaris Ranger to the ‘anchor point’ location.
It has always been assumed that this SECOND ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh asked for with Frisby ( and that we now hear Frisby talking about himself in the newest Hulburd footage ) would be taking place at the same exact location as the first one… right there near the anchor point.
And given that, EVERYONE who had been up there, knew the ridge-line trail continued N/S, therefore I don’t think the conversation would have been about Marsh ‘recently’ discovering (or finding) a trail.
On Sleeves.
Excerpted From Two More Chains Fall 2014
GROUND TRUTHS: On Learning
By Travis Dotson
Fire Management Specialist
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
This summer I helped carry a fellow jumper to an ambulance. I watched someone else get hit by a large tree limb. I had instances of being concerned for my own safety. I choked on smoke. I made decisions about risk—both for myself and others.
I didn’t always wear my gloves. I rolled my sleeves up. I fought fire without a safety zone big enough for the fuel type I was in. I engaged without “expecting the unexpected.” (Yes, I admit I did not have a plan for a meteor impacting our spike camp.)
My awareness was narrowed by fatigue, issues at home, hunger, boredom, stress, and conflict with my supervisor. I continued to put saw line in as I thought to myself: “What the hell are we doing?”
I put fires out that didn’t need to be put out. I didn’t ask questions after a crap briefing. (I just complained about it later.) Or, I did ask questions at these briefings and just nodded when the answer clarified nothing.
I had numerous in-depth conversations about risk, exposure, policy, learning, hunting, traveling, and, of course, fervent debates on the value of bacon-topped doughnuts.
Did I Learn Anything?
pdf link (I don’t know if it will work)
http://tinyurl.com/oghuolm:
On sleeves:
Excerpted From Two More Chains Fall 2014
GROUND TRUTHS: On Learning
By Travis Dotson
Fire Management Specialist
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
This summer I helped carry a fellow jumper to an ambulance. I watched someone else get hit by a large tree limb. I had instances of being concerned for my own safety. I choked on smoke. I made decisions about risk—both for myself and others.
I didn’t always wear my gloves. I rolled my sleeves up. I fought fire without a safety zone big enough for the fuel type I was in. I engaged without “expecting the unexpected.” (Yes, I admit I did not have a plan for a meteor impacting our spike camp.)
My awareness was narrowed by fatigue, issues at home, hunger, boredom, stress, and conflict with my supervisor. I continued to put saw line in as I thought to myself: “What the hell are we doing?”
I put fires out that didn’t need to be put out. I didn’t ask questions after a crap briefing. (I just complained about it later.) Or, I did ask questions at these briefings and just nodded when the answer clarified nothing.
I had numerous in-depth conversations about risk, exposure, policy, learning, hunting, traveling, and, of course, fervent debates on the value of bacon-topped doughnuts.
Did I Learn Anything?
pdf link, if it works:
http://tinyurl.com/oghuolm
If it doesn’t work, I’ll post the page below.
Didn’t work……….
Also I posted a note below on Definition of Bump and Run.
Also WTKTT Methods left you a note today on camera info a ways down.
**
** TYSON ESQUIBEL MENTIONS THE “GET GRANITE MOUNTAIN OUT SAFE”
** CONVERSATION WITH GARY CORDES IN HIS OWN UNIT LOG.
When Tyson Esquibel was interviewed by ADOSH… he makes absolutely NO mention of what we can NOW hear him being told by SPGS1 Gary Cordes circa 1635, as everyone was evacuating from the Shrine Road area.
Cordes told Esquibel to send ( at least ) 1 Engine over to the Boulder Springs ranch… and he also told Esquibel to tell whoever he sent to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ ( to arrive there ) and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely”.
Esquibel never mentions being told to do that to ADOSH… but they never specifically asked him about it, either.
As it turns out… this is finally the solution to that ‘mystery entry’ in Tyson Esquibel’s own Unit Log… which no one saw until it was released in the ‘late package’ of Unit Logs which didn’t appear until February of 2014.
Here are those entries from Tyson Esquibel’s own ‘Unit Log’…
———————————————————————–
1622
Winds increase to 45 mph out of W.
Visibility drop to 150 yds.
Spotting increase, crews briskly move towards trucks.
1630
All crews assembled + accounted for at trucks.
TF2 + Blue Ridge IHC move towards Cafe safety zone.
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cave Safety zone.
1645 ( approx )
Deployment traffic.
1655
Assemble w/4 medics, myself, and all ALS gear to
do recon for GMIHC + start treatment if needed.
Waiting for info.
———————————————————————–
This is the relevant entry from Esquibel’s Unit Log…
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cave Safety zone.
This matches almost exactly that short conversation we can now hear with our own ears at +1 minute and 37 seconds in the new Hulburd video clip with filename M2U00264, right down to the fact that Esquibel said he would take care of that AFTER everyone regrouped at the Ranch House Restaurant… and Cordes ‘signs off’ on that with “Sounds like a plan”.
The M2U0064 video is 3 minutes and 37 seconds long.
At the very end of that video is when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘pull up’ to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and that moment is time stamped with the Blue Ridge GPS data as exactly 1637.
That makes the actual START time for this M2U0064 video right around 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM ) ( 1637 minus 3:37 ).
Caveat: This is exactly what I ( me, personally ) can hear in the background. Your mileage may vary.
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
————————————————————————
+1:37 ( 1635.00 / 4:35.00 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Task force two, Cordes, on our TAC.
+1:40 ( 1635.03 / 4:35.03 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Cordes, Task force two.
+1:42 ( 1635.05 / 4:35.05 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Do we have a coupla engines holdin’ in place at
the, uh, Boulder Springs Ranch?
+1:49 ( 1635.12 / 4:35.12 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): I’ll send one that way.
Uh… we’re gettin’ spots up here… but I’ll run one over.
+1:55 ( 1635.18 / 4:35.18 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.
Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
+2:06 ( 1635.29 / 4:35.29 PM )
(TLFD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.
Uh… we’ll regroup at the… uh… cafe and then send somebody in.
+2:12 ( 1635.35 / 4:35.35 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Sounds like a good plan.
————————————————————————
So Esquibel was, in fact, recalling that conversation with Cordes VERY well ( almost exactly ) and Esquibel’s Unit Log entry really does match this conversation almost exactly… except for ONE ( big ) thing.
Esquibel makes NO mention ( in either his Unit Log or during his ADOSH interview ) that the REASON Gary Cordes was telling him to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch was to make sure that Granite Mountain ‘got out safely’ once they arrived there.
Typo above. In two places… I typed ‘Cave’ instead of ‘Cafe’.
So this entry taken directly from Tyson Esquibel’s own Unit Log should have looked like this…
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cafe Safety zone.
This also answers Elizabeth’s statement about there were no winds at 40 MPH on the Fire There were at 1622 an increase to 45..
So we can add to our list that Cordes knew what GM was doing either he talked to them or herd a conversation on the radio with specifics abut the move we have not herd. This is a critical find for ADOSH and possibly the Families lawyers.
Cordes— How did he know and what did he hear over the radio from Marsh??????
Bob, I will try to break down my weather/wind/wildland-fire calculus (and you can feel free to tell me if you see weaknesses in my calculus):
There is a tool called the “Buford scale” that can be used for ballpark measuring winds on wildland fires. If you look at all of the videos taken at 4:22 p.m., you do not SEE evidence of winds that would suggest – according to the Buford scale – that there were sustained outflow-boundary-related 40 mph winds on the YHF at 4:22 p.m.
EVIDENCE, Bob. Visual EVIDENCE – If there were such 40 or 45 mph winds at 4:22 p.m., there would be visual EVIDENCE of such in the multiple videos that I have in my files (and, as we know, I have perhaps the most extensive files at this point, given that I still have various materials that folks like John Dougherty and others have not bothered to pursue). Of course, if you have different videos that I do, Bob, then please feel free to point us to whichever videos show “Buford” evidence of outflow-boundary-related sustained 40 or 45 mph winds at 4:22 p.m.
The Videos just released when the vehicles are getting out show very strong winds in the trees and you can hear the wind in the recording blowing on the Mike. Those are very strong winds to do that.
If you also look at the Stanton weather station on the June 30 date at 4 an 5 pm it dose not record on the min.
so the 41MPH recorded at 5 could have been going on for 30 plus min. but then I went thru this with you during the summer and you ignored the facts then on E-Mail
So I am still on the facts and they are recorded.
The 20 to 30 MPH winds earlier 3 and 4 are way strong enough to blow that fire to hell any thing over 20MPH are a fire fighters night mare.
40 mph winds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKnSyeby4s
Shooting in a 30mph wind!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vlONSxbDKQ
I vote 30.
Although the wind could have been faster at the Youth Camp, where Tyson was than further down Shrine Road where Aaron was.
Topography.
One more followup…
While it is now clear that Tyson Esquibel was remembering that ‘Send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch and make sure Granite Mountain gets out safely’ conversation he had with Cordes ( circa 4:35 PM ) VERY well… and reproduced it almost exactly ( minus the REASON he was being told to send the engine )…
…there is no such matching ‘entry’ in Gary Cordes’ official Unit Log.
Cordes doesn’t mention this ‘sounds like a good plan’ conversation with Esquibel in EITHER his own Unit Log OR anywhere in his ADOSH interview.
So even though Esquibel thought it was important enough to at least recall and record that conversation in his own Unit Log… according to SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ Unit Log ( and his ADOSH interview )… that entire conversation ‘never happened’.
I am a little confused. Is SPGS1 DW or Cordis?
In M2U00266R, we hear what sounds like DW (confirmed by WTK) identifying himself as SPGS1, right? This occurs at the 3:58 mark.
Yes. That is how that exchange went.
Darrell Willis seemed to respond to callout for ‘SPGS1’… not Cordes.
If you look at at a lot of the radio captures when Cordes was the one actually responding… the tendency on the part of THOSE callers was to prefix their callout with the following…
‘Structure Group, Cordes’.
Also… remember that Cordes had specifically requested TAC 3 for himself and his resources down there in Yarnell… so Cordes was specifically listening for traffic on TAC 3, not TAC 1 or 2 ( like Willis was ).
Even Brian Frisby ‘called out’ to Gary Cordes, at the end of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video… saying ‘Structure Group Cordes, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1’.
I’m wondering if that kinda sorta or something has anything to do with Darrell Willis’ Unit Log being named “Structure Protection Group 1” and his map being named “Structure Protection Group 2.”
That has screwed me up a number of times.
There is no dobut there was CONFUSION about this… even in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
In Willis’ 3:30 AM Unit Log entry… he says that is when he was told Gary Cordes had been assigned to Structure Protection in the Yarnell area as ‘Structure Protection Group #2’.
So Willis really did think HE was SPGS1.
In Cordes ADOSH interview… he describes his official assignment in Yarnell that day as ‘Structure Protection Group ONE’ ( not TWO ).
Maybe that has something to do with Cordes finally requesting his own ‘TAC 3′ radio channel that day specifically for himself and his resources.
Down there on the South side of the fire… most people were using the following specific radio callout when they knew they wanted Cordes…
“Structure Group, Cordes’.
That’s even what Brian Frisby was saying at the end of the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video. Frisby says…
“Structure Group Cordes, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1”
Just more evidence of how confusing things really were that day in Yarnell.
I have to say that I’m hearing that radio transmission a tiny bit differently.
As I’ve listened to it, and even as I read your transcript, it sounds to me more like when Gary says, “Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out” that sounds more to me like the “he” in it is the engine, not Granite Mountain. Granite Mountain is a “they” not a “he.” I think that if Cordes was saying this about Granite Mountain, he would have said “they.”
And then Tyson says,”Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.” That ties in, to me, with the engine, like Tyson is communicating to Cordes that he knows the engine is ahead of him coming out of the Youth Camp.
This doesn’t change the overall meaning of the order–to send an engine to BSR to “Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.”
Perhaps the inference is that once the ‘getting’ of Granite Mountain is complete, make sure that ‘he’ (the engine) gets out OK.
That makes sense, too. Good catch.
Marti… yes… I actually thought about that myself and made EXTRA sure I was hearing the word ‘he’ rather than ‘they’.
I believe my transcript is still accurate.
Cordes does use the word ‘he’ instead of ‘they’…
But my take on that is ( in his own mind ) he was just thinking of Eric Marsh himself and that was causing him to mix his singulars and his plurals in those hectic moments.
I think, to Cordes ( at that moment ), HE meant ‘Eric Marsh AND Granite Mountain’
Either way… Tyson Esquibel seemed to understand exactly what Cordes meant.
Again ( and as I keep saying over and over )… the REAL way to verify some of these background conversations is to re-interview the parties involved.
WTKTT,
See my comment, just above.
Yes. I saw that.
There are actually other places in the plethura of radio exchanges that were captured that day where people were mixing their ‘singulars’ and their ‘plurals’ when referring to other ‘resources’ or ‘units’.
Best examples are when it comes to the airplanes.
Unless it’s just a SEAT tanker… there are usually ‘crew’ on board an airplane with a designation like ASM2 or Bravo33… but a lot of times others would refer to these multiple people in that airplane a HE rather than just THEY.
I think it has to do with the fact that even when you know you are ‘talking’ to an entire resource ( like an Engine crew or a Hotshot crew )… you are still usually just communications with ONE person who ( in your mind, then ) simply REPRESENTS that ‘entire resource’.
Hence the tendency to mix-up your ‘singular’ and your ‘plural’ descriptors when referring to ‘them’.
Either way… I still think Cordes PLAN was clear to Esquibel.
Cordes was wondering if they STILL had a ‘coupla engines’ staged over the Boulder Springs Ranch. If Esquibel had responded in the affirmative I think the second part of Cordes’ conversation would have been the same. He would have then told Esquibel to tell THOSE Engines that were already ‘staged’ there to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ and ‘make sure they get out safely’.
Esquibel basically answered NO to Cordes’ first question about the engines by coming right back saying he would ‘Send one over there’.
Cordes understood BOTH inferences there…. that Esquibel was basically responding ‘negative’ to his question about any Engines already being over there…. but Esquibel would now be sure to SEND one ‘that way’.
At the end of the conversation… I’m sure both men understood what the PLAN was they just both agreed to.
After Esquibel got all the Engines in his ‘Task Force 2’ assembled down at the Ranch House Restaurant… he would send ONE of them in to the Boulder Springs Ranch with the instructions to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to ‘arrive’ there… and then make sure EVERYONE ( Granite Mountain, Engines, EVERYONE ) then ‘gets out safely’.
It was ( as Cordes said ) ‘a good plan’.
It was simply executed TOO LATE to make a difference that day.
If Cordes had given those same instructions to TFLD2(t) Cordes just 15 minutes earlier that day… everything might have been different.
Typo in last half of last sentence above.
TFLD2(t) ( Task Force 2 Leader Trainee ) was Tyson Esquibel, of course, and not Cordes.
I just had a question pop into my mind.
How does an engine get 19 people “out”?
Oh, that’s right. Cordes thought they had plenty of time.
I agree with the sentiment Bob noted, somewhere.
Given the fire’s dynamic conditions at that time, ordering an engine into the Boulder Springs Ranch would be a pretty dangerous call.
Remember what happened to the dozer?
Actually… Cordes was just asking Esquibel if there were already any engines ALREADY ( staged ) out there at the BSR.
It was Esquibel who came right back and basically said ‘no… but I’ll send one there’.
Cordes didn’t disagree with that ‘plan’… but he really was just wondering if they had one there already, or not.
I think all of this just demonstrates that BOTH Cordes and Esquibel did NOT really have a full grasp on the fire behavior or advancement at that time ( 4:35 )… or any idea what was really happening ‘out there’ in the middle bowl and on down towards Glen Ilah.
The fire was basically ‘already there’… but they seemed to be oblivious to that fact.
Just one more example of how the AIR resources were not communicating what THEY knew down to the ground command that day, perhaps?
I am working on the newest photos Joy sent me.
According to the metadata (YAY for METADATA), they were taken with an ipod, a canon powershot and an olympus.
Some were taken June 29, some were taken June 30 and some were taken after July 2. It’s quite a mix.
I have much more looking to do at these photos, and I will describe them in more detail and put them on Dropbox and, from there post them.
What I”m finding most important, in my opinion, actually, are the photos of the fire during the night of June 29. To me, they underscore the irresponsibility of ordering a SHORT type 2 team for the next day.
That fire was seriously BURNING HARD that night!
And fires, generally, from what I’ve read, aren’t supposed to burn all that hard at night.
Marti,
That’s correct Marti. GENERALLY most fires lay down at night, however, when there are HIGH NIGHTTIME temperatures in the 45-55 degree range in the high country or above 80 degrees in the lower deserts, there is the POTENTIAL for extreme to blow-up conditions on existing and/or potential fires.
Such was the case on the YHF on June 30th. Using the Stanton, AZ RAWS (Remote Automated Weather Station) data ( http://www.raws.dri.edu/cgi-bin/rawMAIN.pl?azASTA ) there were VERY HIGH NIGHTTIME temperatures for several days leading up to the YHF fatal day’s fire behavior on June 30th.
Extreme fire potential/behavior occurs on the day FOLLOWING the HIGHEST NIGHTTIME temperatures. If you go to the Stanton, AZ RAWS link and search the archive weather for the nighttime temperatures leading up to the fatal YHF day, you will note nighttime temperatures in the low to high 80’s and even higher, thus setting the stage for EXTREME fire behavior.
So, the high nighttime temperatures in combination/alignment with all the other weather factors, fuel factors, terrain, and such that day, caused the extreme fire behavior and extreme rates of spread. The YHF fire behavior was very similar to the June 26, 1990 Dude Fire fatalities north of Payson, AZ which also exhibited high NIGHTTIME temperatures prior to the extreme fire behavior. During late June 2013, experienced WFF noted these potential large fire growth conditions and briefed their resources on them daily. So, the YHF fire behavior should NOT have been a surprise to anyone experienced in the Southwest . Hope this helps.
Yes, this helps.
Which actually kind of underscored my point.
The photos show how extreme that fire was setting itself up to become the next day.
At both 1:30 AM and again at 3:30 AM ( in the middle of the night, basically ) Darrell Willis himself made entries in his Unit Logs that the fire was definitely ACTIVE ( and not ‘laid down’ or ‘idle’ ) even then.
Here are Willis’ log entries he made in the middle of the night…
————————————————————————–
01:30 AM
Bruce Olsen and I traveled down a two track south being the ( Double-Bar-A ) ranch and determined where fire was above ranch. ACTIVE fire behavior witnessed high up on mountain approximately 1.5 to the Southwest.
03:30 AM
Met IC Shumate at the Yarnell Fire Station, we discussed fire location, what I found at risk and general tactics. He informed me that there was a team ordered and they will start trickling in around 0700. Gary Cordes was there and he had been designated as the Yarnell Structure Group Structure Group #2. We both discussed the resource needs for Day shift including Engines, crews, aircraft and structure protection trailers. We all agreed that we needed to hammer the fire with aircraft as early as we could get them up in daylight. Fire behavior is ACTIVE.
—————————————————————————
SIDENOTE: calvin… if you are reading this… the entries above from Willis’ Unit Log show it was HIS understanding that HE was ‘Structure Group ONE’… and that Cordes was ‘Structure Group TWO’.
However… in Gary Cordes ADOSH interview… Cordes confirms that he thought HE was ‘Structure Group ONE’… not Willis.
Just more proof of the ‘confusion’ that was present on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From page 3 of Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes
——————————————————–
115 Q2: Okay, and I got the first di- dispatch of Yarnell I got that. That was good.
116 Tied in with IC Russ Shumate, and your assigned structure group one…
117
118 A: Right.
—————————————————-
Dave Larsen is actually reading from Cordes’ Unit Log notes at this point in the interview so Cordes made the same entry in his own logs… that HE was assigned to be ‘Structure Group ONE’… not Willis.
Marti,
And of course with high NIGHTTIME temperatures, the fires burn VERY ACTIVELY at night. Active NIGHTTIME fires are and/or should be a big watch out and indicato toall WFFr. The Doce Fire, just prior to the YHF exhibited similar extreme NIGHTTIME fire behavior. This should NOT have been a surprise to non one experienced in Southwest wildfires
Marti,
All jumbled up there above. so correcting it here.
“… a big watch out and indicator to all WFF.” And also correcting the double negative here. “.This should NOT have been a surprise to anyone experienced in Southwest wildfires.”
Sorry about that.
No prob. I got the message!
Exactly.
WTKTT, did you post somewhere the download of the Blue Ridge GPS from that day? My notes say that True went down the slope in 4-ish minutes, but I vaguely recall that you did a minute-by-minute GPS (lat/long) download dump of it. If so, do you have the link nearby?
The BR GPS video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8cEKBzlhws&list=UU_-A47xgyIvRC3FoQGv3w4A
The complete TEXT version of the Blue Ridge GPS data, point by point, start to finish, with Latitude, Longitude and brief descriptions of each and every movement was published at the bottom of Chapter VIII ( Chapter 8 ) of this ongoing discussion.
The Blue Ridge GPS data shows that it took Captain Brown 6 minutes to make that descent down to the deployment site… but keep in mind that the GPS unit was only updating every 60 seconds.
Here is the part from that complete BR data GPS movement list that documents Captain Trueheart Brown’s fast descent ( on foot ) from the ‘Descent Point’ to the deployment site.
Columns are…
Time, Latitude, Longitude, Distance in feet since last point,. Speed ( MPH ), Description
——————————————
1822 – 34.221823, -112.782125 – 0715.249 – 08.13 – At ‘Descent Point’ and already left two-track starting descent towards deployment site.
1823 – 34.221024, -112.780913 – 0459.679 – 05.22 – Descending in drainage area
1824 – 34.220944, -112.780441 – 0131.291 – 01.49 – Descending in drainage area
1825 – 34.220760, -112.779878 – 0177.553 – 02.02 – Descending in drainage area
1826 – 34.220570, -112.778891 – 0321.836 – 03.65 – Descending in drainage area
1827 – 34.220503, -112.778188 – 0222.092 – 02.52 – Descending in draingae area, almost to deployment site
1828 – 34.220490, -112.777668 – 0156.980 – 01.78 – At deployment site now
——————————————
Six minutes.
Thank you!
If you want to get REALLY picky about it… look at the ‘feet traveled’ and ‘miles per hour’ entry for the very last GPS update which shows him fully ‘arrived’ at the actual deployment site.
In that last ‘leg’ of his trip to the deployment site… he only traveled 156.feet and his ‘average speed’ over those final 60 seconds dropped to just 1.78 mph.
What I am saying here is that since the GPS unit was only updating every 60 seconds… it is perfectly possible that final GPS entry shows that he arrived at the deployment site perhaps 30 seconds before that final GPS update actually happened, which would account for the small distance traveled and the drop in his average speed.
So, technically, I think it’s safe to say he ‘arrived’ at the deployment site in about 5 minutes and 30 seconds versus the full 6 minutes.
My sources are indicating that there WAS no argument between Jesse and Eric that was recorded on video, and my sources are two guys who were friends with Eric and Jesse and who were on the YHF, speaking with Eric and Jesse repeatedly that day.
(According to *other* of my sources, the R-3 guys are so sick of the one old guy who keeps trying to stir up inaccurate drama (like this “recorded argument” drama) that the old guy was not invited to come to this year’s R-3 IHC end-of-the-season meeting.)
Confirming the fact that there is not likely to be any argument between Jesse and Eric suddenly coming to light is the fact that, in Mackenzie’s recorded video clips, it sounds like Eric is asking Jesse about Jesse’s “comfort level.” Guys who are arguing or bossing each other around are not normally trying to get a sense of each others’ “comfort level.” If you are arguing or ordering someone around, you generally do not give a shit about the other person’s “comfort level.”
correct. they did not seem to be arguing so who wanted them to go down there? We know that Marsh refused early on “safe in the black”
ask Blue Ridge.
Once again, you have absolutely NO idea what you’re talking about. I ALLEGE that you are delusion most times. Your repeated feculence doesn’t surprise me in the least, so typical of you.. You repeatedly spew out misinformation and disinformation, bizarre fantasies, lies and venom and then attempt to mollify things with your nauseating ‘smiley faces’ like that is going to convince people to what? Go crawl back to your web or in your hole. Have a nice day.
I agree after the conversations Elizabeth has had with me over our E-Mails.
Who ever she has as sources are poorly trained and have a low IQ for wild land Fire
step up with your names or go crawl in a hole.
By the way your souses should check the R3 IHC meeting attendance. DAM that old guy was there invited by the way……..
Your sources are figments of your imagination….There is information out there I have herd it, RTS has herd it as have others and some have seen and herd the Audio. Because you and your sources haven’t is of no importance to me.
RTS, Bob Powers just said that you were at the R-3 IHC gathering just days ago, but I’m pretty sure you were NOT. Clarify, RTS…
I don’t have to clarify anything to you. Who the f**k do you think you are? See above.
So my intel was good – you didn’t get invited, RTS. Keep burning R-3 bridges.
Like I said. Delusional! You live in a fantasy world Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy. Crawl back into your hole.
Hmmmm, my sources have confirmed that you were NOT there, RTS. Now who’s the liar?
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
You clearly are DELUSIONAL! You live in a fantasy world with very unreliable sources to boot. Crawl back into your cockroach hole or go check your web. Like I said, who the f**k do you think you are?
Right – so you weren’t at the R-3 IHC end of season thing/mtg. this year.
Ya might want to tell Bob that.
Your Intel is BS– You calling me a Liar Again you have no clue
What I say is fact and you are again way off base. Not interested in your intel any longer.
Discrediting people seems to be your way of life. Again go play in another sand box.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Delusional and dangerous indeed I allege! I had you blocked from my email account due to your persistent harassment and stalking, so you now have to persist here on IM because you cannot do it elsewhere. Twisted.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE THIS WOMAN YOUR EMAIL ACCOUNT FOR ANY REASON IN SPITE OF HER SIREN CALL TO ENTICE YOU, LEST YOU SUFFER THE SAME FATE.
She is really showing her true colors tonight folks – BLACK.
Elizabeth I will say this once as nice as I can Your sources
are fallacies’ as is your disturbing refusal to listen .
wasting breath but once more RTS/Fred was at the IHC meeting. We talk all the time ……..
He has nothing to prove to you …………..
What he dose for and with the Forest Service is none of your business.
You are proving nothing with this argument except your childish dismissal of the facts. You are in NEW YORK not following Fred around Arizona and New Mexico. and neither are your sources. enough is enough. You wont get very far calling me a liar on here either.
Bob,
I don’t have any sources, but I have to say Elizabeth has to be one of the most unpleasant people I have ever encountered in my life. At one time I actually felt a bit sympathetic towards her, but she is now determined to be utterly obnoxious.
I may not be convinced of all RTS has discussed, but given the inexplicable nature of what happened that day, what he says certainly could be possible. The co-head of the SAIT publicly mentioned an argument – so to discuss it is not at all ridiculous.
I do not know what game she is playing, but it is quite obvious she doesn’t care what people think of her. But I also think she does not really care about the truth here either.
Your right enough said Thanks Mike
I really hate to say it, but I agree.
I think that NORMAL law professors would care about repeatedly making statements that are very easily shown to not be credible. I try in these cases to think what someone is trying to do. If EN were trying simply to support the idea that there should be no accountability, which imo is where she started, she might keep saying “this was reasonable, the little trek through the green was reasonable, you guys aren’t lawyers,” which is more or less imo what she did initially. Now she’s gotten to a new level of nasty. I can’t know what is in someone’s head. In general, if I see someone devolve their behavior, I wonder if there was some intervening life stress. What I would hope is that she resolve whatever imo is troubling her, and do so privately.
Marti, you realize that SR and RTS and Fire 20+ and Mike are all “Fred,” right? Someone actually did a post once showing us how Fred has posted here under all sorts of different names, pretending to be other people so that it would *LOOK* like someone was actually agreeing with his crap. He accidentally outed himself at one point by posting the same exact thing using two different names. So, the fact that Mike, SR, and RTS “all” hate me is not terribly disturbing, because they are all just Fred, and Fred’s own crew has told me that he is a, umm, … well… they have used various words, as have guys at the top levels of the WFF world. They have all said the same thing – Fred is just not credible, and Fred is trying desperately to start drama and spread misinformation regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. One senior guy in the WFF community blamed it on Fred’s relatively recent stroke, one senior guys said Fred has ALWAYS been like this, and one senior guy blamed the Dude Fire. In short, if Calvin says horrible things about me, maybe I’d care. But if Fred’s made-up names says it, I don’t care much at all. My goal at this point is to try to keep some of you from creating needless and baseless noise that is incredibly upsetting to the people hurt most deeply by the GM tragedy.
Boy Elizabeth, you’re a regular Sherlock Holmes.
How else could you have also deduced, as you repeatedly stated in the past, that WTKTT and I are the same person, as well.
Please go back to your own non-productive blog page to spin your yarns. Your input in this commentary, is non-productive as well!
I think maybe Elizabeth might have some kind of multiple-personality-obsessive-compulsive disorder.
These claims are nuts.
“My goal at this point is to try to keep some of you from creating needless and baseless noise ”
And, also projection much?
Then… do your sources also know anything about WHO the ‘multiple persons’ were that testified to the SAIT that they DID hear this ‘argument between Marsh and Steed’?
In his (public) speech before Utah Firefighters on June 20, 2014, SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself came right out and said that ‘multiple people’ ( Even more than TWO? ) had said they heard this ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
He said they couldn’t (quote) “validate that”… but he also never said what they did to even TRY to ‘validate it’ ( if anything ).
But the fact remains that even the Co-Leader of the SAIT admits that more than one person says they DID, in fact, hear this ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
By the way… I’m sure any WFF will tell you that the moment someone is asking you what your ‘comfort level’ is over the radio… you can be SURE that conversation involves that person wanting you to DO something…
…and that any ‘What’s your comfort level?’ conversation can descend VERY quickly into an argument based on the personalities and the levels of ‘hard-headedness’ involved.
Marty Cole ( the first Captain of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) has already testified that even despite his (supposedly) easy-going ways and southern drawl… Marsh was, could, in fact, be a real ‘hard-head’ at times.
WTKTT: Based on your reasoning, then, could it be possible that the “comfort level” discussion was what was viewed as an argument by some unnamed sources (again, not my sources, who were THERE and actually heard some of this firsthand)?
OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PAY ATTENTION??????????????????????
reply:This is an area we meaning me, Frank Serros, Tommy Maiden, Bryant S., Tex Gilligan can state we know that VERY spot may it be the saddle or center to the 2 track ridge looking down and we all agree on this statement: YES it IS deceptive looking and appears to look easy. In areas the day of the fire before it burnt was spaces and very thin (7 inches) of erosion space yet at points it had intertwined chaparral, scrub oak, cat claw, cacti, thick bear grass, datura, wildflowers, and boulders.
Recently we were asked can you go down in there?
Is it possible before the fire?
Well, to answer Sonny feels a bear can wallow around in there but no human he told someone recently and I disagree because we went that way and fought in the very spot the men died—that is what my gps coordinates but it was a maze-like dense terrain with very thick intertwined chaparral, scrub oak, cat claw, cacti, thick bear grass, datura, wildflowers, and boulders. Could an elite squad at the end of the day when they looked so spent early on do it? I would have to say yes being we saw them a lot at standby throughout the midday. Rested. It would be SLOWWWWWW going in spots. Would they make it in 20 minutes to the ranch…it depends how well they examined the box canyon. to answer you: No. It is possible if they could of scaled the boulders up top still having their eyes on the fire (still slow going but safe) versus dropping into the thick spots which even if you were the elite we can take anyone to an example of what they faced that day and many we took already said NO WAY! Who would even want to travel in that brush? Now for Sonny’s view:
Sonny says HELL NO they could not get there in 20 minutes from the saddle to the Helm’s. You could not even make it to the site where they died in 20 minutes after the fire as proven with Brett from Osha a marathon runner. He said it it took him 22 minutes after the fire just to get down the mountain to the site. Now, the degree of grade in some areas there were 60% and than add the tight brush. The brush Sonny states before the fire was so thick that it was like a maze to get through. There was no game or cattle trails to follow. About the only thing we saw was where bear had wallowed the brush down in certain areas. And those you definitely could not walk through. You could not roll through like a bear can. Willis stated in his early media talks that a regular human couldn’t transverse such terrain but the elite men with their chainsaws did and could.
It would seem that the FBI would get involved considering that millions in Federal Tax Monies have been squandered due to allowing this fire to an advanced stage and wild fire. Fema’s and BLM’s presence and observations in the early stages of the fire shows that the Feds were involved from the get go. There were federal lands that burned, albeit only 3%–still enough to involve the Feds. Also those Jet Liners that dumped thousands of dollars in retardant came from out of state, hence the crossing of state lines based on a felonious allowing of a fire to be the worse killer of humanity in many years. We heard of the arguement here in Yarnell of whether or not to put it out the first day or not and we have heard that a local dispacher was told to get rid of certain records pertaining to the fire. Those reports to us whether true or some people making up stories ought to at least be investigated and obviously not with the people who regard these investigations so lightly. To my way of thinking this situation demands an outside Federal Investigation. I am certain people have already contacted those outside agencies in a matter as serious as this one had become. I think it is called pork barrel money until it involves the death of men–then the realities of how operations are needlessly risking lives while ripping off the tax payer becomes criminal pork barrel.
I indeed see how the familes of these heroes are angry and add to that the people that have lost their homes and lives beyond that we begin to see that the tragedy extends beyond the lives of those heroes. What about the 33 deaths since the fire–the increased incident of lung problems and the loss of wild life. These are just a part of the mess debacle has created. Then you have people taking awards and bowing before audiences as though they did a great joy.
I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy and I will shortly attend a meeting about how a memorial should be. We think it should go to the site that the state wants to arrest you for going to see. You can go to Mann Gulch or the Storm King sights with no trepidation–People pay their respects to those sites–but this one has been treated differently. Why? Maybe someone can inform me on that one.
We will also ask for a memorial in Yarnell for those whom have died since the fire–Some 33 that Joy has names for since the fire. Perhaps not all are totally related but older folks that live her (myself included if 71 is senior) but this fire indeed has been a significant factor in those deaths. I think even of that young man Zack Ashoor of Phoenix who stopped me as I was walking down the street of Yarnell. He wanted to know where the site where those men died. He told me he had been in some of the bars with the men and when he heard the news he had broken down and cried. He wanted to see the place. So I took my time to hike him there and I noticed he used some type of breathing device,. although he seemed to make it well at my slow pace. He told me he had asthma. Once above the site he said I am going down to that fence, I have to go to pay my respects. I told him he might get arrested–he replied he would stand before any judge on that. I found that he was actually working on a respirator that would save lives for firemen–he said oxygen apparatus was just too heavy but he was trying to improve one so that weight would not be a factor. — That man was another hero in my book and I believe that breathing that smoke and bad air right after the fire actually escalated his problem–but nothing would have stopped him from paying respect to those men. I know it has affected plenty of residents including myself and Joy when it comes to breathing properly.
Yea there is more to come and Joy is expecting more quality photos from sources she has lined up. I don’t know that there will ever be a break here until the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes out– We need all the help we can get and just as Joy tells people, no matter how insignificant someones testimony or photo may seem, it may be just the thing to unveil another truth.
Sonny said:I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy said: I heard it the man who fought on this Yarnell fire Sonny…Prescott Fire Chief Dan Freijo…and if he wins he wants to unionize the firefighting community.
Just chiming in here with a point…
Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo was NOT in Yarnell at any time that weekend… but he WAS forced out of his job by Prescott City Manager McConnell following the incident.
M2U00266R (beginning at 4:08)
Who says “you can stage at the small (?) right there right on the north side by the mini storage. why don’t you just take the north end of town. I am down here on the south end”
SPGS1?
I believe that is definitely Darrell Willis responding to that ‘Type 2’ crew which has apparently just arrived in Yarnell and they want to know where they should go.
Willis was ( apparently ) already ‘down on the south end’.
He MAY have still been traveling in his vehicle towards the Ranch House Restaurant.
It was slow going for him as he drove down Highway 89.
There was LOTS of smoke and Willis even reports having to stop because of 2 horses running down the middle of Highway 89 as he drove down to the RHR.
calvin… followup…
I’m still working pretty hard here on the transcripts for all these new videos ( as released )… and I’m also working on establishing exact TIMES for all of them.
Since the USFS didn’t see fit to successfully fulfill the FOIA request and deliver ( as closely as possible ) byte-for-byte original copies of the material in their possession… we don’t have the EXIF timestamp information for any of these videos.
Not to worry. There are ‘anchor events’ in most of these videos that already have ‘known times’ and it shouldn’t take too long to discover what the exact START / STOP times are for each video… the ‘duration of time’ in-between them… and how much time is still ‘missing’ from the recordings.
More later…
thanks. patiently waiting.
I thought that was DW also. It sounds like he is talking with Structure 3 (Berry?) It doesn’t sound like he is still actively traveling south.
He (DW) says (At 4:12) “why don’t you just take the north end of the town, Im down here on the south end.” (4:29) “were just doing point protection, you know bump and roll on it”
And, with that, Calvin, you answered why the engine was going to the BSR. Bump and roll.
Fire terminology you might want to check on what it means before you stick your foot in you mouth.
That communication has nothing whatsoever to do do with Gary Cordes communicating with Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch.
WTF is your agenda, Elizabeth?
This post shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
Marti, what do you *THINK* “bump and roll” means?
Once you figure that out, it should be easy for you to figure out HOW that applies to the engine that Cordes was requesting be brought to BSR. He wasn’t asking for it to be brought there to somehow protect GM. That is something WTKTT is making up.
Also, on a personal note, Marti, why are you forgetting how NICE I have been to you off-line, outside of this forum? How are you forgetting that, Marti? I mean that sincerely.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 15, 2014 at 8:41 am
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> He wasn’t asking for it to be brought there to
>> somehow protect GM.
He is telling Esquibel to get an engine involved with ‘picking them up’ and to ‘get them out safely’. The word ‘protect’ is not in the radio capture.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> That is something WTKTT is making up.
Nope.
If you can’t at least hear the ‘Granite Mountain’ part of that conversation… you are DEAF.
Bump and Roll—
Move up put out fire or build line and roll (move) to the next spot.
That is what bump and roll means.
Or in Hand crew terminology Bump Up
One crew reaches the back of another in line construction and the crew in front bumps up and starts new line as the crew behind then builds line till they bump up again. You have crews working together to increase line construction rates very effective.
With Engines they are moving and putting out fires along a road to stop the spread
Also known as Bump and Run it takes team work and cooperation.
I TOTALLY understand what bump and roll means.
That’s NOT what Cordes was asking Esquibal to do.
Why would you say that?
You wrote:
“Also, on a personal note, Marti, why are you forgetting how NICE I have been to you off-line, outside of this forum? How are you forgetting that, Marti?”
Thank you very much, Elizabeth for emailing me with the hedz-up about the red Wickenburg truck not being Paul Musser’s.
Now, please quit wasting my time and everyone else’s by challenging us on every little thing without, apparently, having done enough homework to develop the knowledge base to do so,
And please quit wasting bandwidth and this page’s ability to process comments (and probably the readers’ patience) with all your jive about how people here, who have clearly different voices and personhoods, being sock-puppets of “Fred.”
It’s not NICE to do that, either.
Dear Marti: That is not what I am referring to that I did for you. Are you forgetting what ELSE I did for you?
Clearly you are, since you are snarking at me for no good reason. I get that this whole situation triggers you due to your horrifying own personal situation (which you have disclosed here and for which I have repeatedly expressed my sympathies). I, personally, have been nothing but supportive to you about that, which you yourself admitted. Therefore, in return, I would have thought you would have been a bit less inclined to lash out at me when I have never said anything personally attacking you.
And, thus, what makes you less of the “arm-chair quarterback” you accuse Bob Powers of being??
It’s totally clear to me that he knows light-years more than you do about fighting wildfires.
And, yes what you are saying could be true.
Or maybe not. I don’t know Berry arrived.
Typo. It’s late in a long day.
I don’t know when “Berry” arrived on the fire. If I remember correctly, he was interviewed by ADOSH.
Reply to Robert the Second’s post on November 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The two WFF I referred to on October 11th were
>> NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Thank you! It really was just a ‘wild guess’.
I still think it is more than likely, however, that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are all fully aware of EVERYTHING that Aaron filmed that day. They are all ‘thick as thieves’ there at PNF and more than likely they all SAW his footage before he even gave it to whoever it was he actually gave it to in the first place following the tragedy.
Actually.. he obviously did NOT give his material directly to Arizona Forestry or the newly formed SAIT… but went through his own PNF / USFS work channels. That’s why it took an actual Federal level FOIA to ‘shake them loose’.
We still simply just don’t know the WHO ( Sic: NAMES ) or what the ‘chain of possesion’ was on his ‘evidence’.
It’s still pretty much NON-CREDIBLE that Arizona Forestry would have ONLY seen the Hulburd footage that covers the actual MAYDAY sequence…. which THEY released last December.
If US Forestry really did ONLY show AZF ( and the SAIT? ) that one single file from all of this footage they already had in their possession from PNF employee Aaron Hulburd… then I would imagine there are even people at AZF that have a ‘bone to pick’ with Tom Harbour up there at USFS.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the
>> one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’)
>> that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet
>> seen these latest video releases. When I told him
>> NONE of them had any radio transmissions from
>> Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the
>> video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY
>> had Marsh radio transmissions in them.
Well… technically… since the USFS chose to basically re-release that original footage from December in THIS new ‘evidence dump’ as well… it is, in fact, true that THESE new videos DO have ‘Marsh in them’… but it’s just the same “Our escape route has been cut off” and “We are burning out around ourselves” and “I’ll give you a call when we are under the shelters” traffic from Marsh that was first heard back in December.
I wouldn’t call THOSE transmissions ‘damaging to Marsh’.
So just to be clear… we are talking about your source(s) referring to some OTHER heretofore ‘unheard’ Eric Marsh transmissions… correct?
THOSE ( if they exist ) are definitely NOT included in this latest ‘evidence dump’. Other than the same December “We are deploying” traffic… there really aren’t any identifiable transmissions from Marsh in THIS latest release.
We can certainly now hear ( for the first time ) that Gary Cordes was actually instructing his Task Force Trainee Tyson Esquibel to send an engine over to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely” (endquote)…
…but I don’t hear any NEW radio transmissions from Eric Marsh himself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
I still believe the evidence points to there being some kind of ‘emergency’ transmissions on BOTH of these channels that day.
We can HEAR the ones that went out over A/G in the Hulburd videos… but we still haven’t heard the one ( or more? ) that might have preceded those calls but went over TAC.
Even Rance Marquez, in his ADOSH interview, is recalling hearing SOME kind of ‘emergency’ talk over the radio BEFORE he testifies to hearing that first “We are in front of the flaming front’ MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed over the A/G channel.
Marquez even goes so far as to say he believes it was something about someone trying to do some ‘sound location’ between Marsh and the Helicopters BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> None of this surprises me. The FS is well known
>> (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire
>> investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and
>> then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s
>> maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable.
>> And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports”
>> most times.
In case you haven’t noticed… I ( me, personally ) don’t give a rat’s ass what either Arizona Forestry or their parent company ( US Forestry Service ) has EVER done ‘in the PAST.
I want them to ‘come clean’ on THIS incident.
As soon as possible.
This is a seminal moment for them( no matter how they have handled things in the past ) and I ( and a whole lot of other people ) want to see them all put on their big-boy shorts and do the RIGHT thing this time.
It’s not hard.
Just tell the TRUTH.
For men who pride themselves on ‘duty, honor, courage, character’ and all that jazz… I haven’t seen much of ANY of that from them so far. All I see ( so far ) is a bunch of guys trying to protect their own jobs and cover their own asses. Not much to ‘respect’ there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …”
>> NOT October 8th
Copy that.
One more thing…
Obviously I am NOT going to ask you to query your sources about anything because I know you, yourself, are deciding how and when to participate in the PUBLIC part of this ongoing fiasco…
…but can you at least ‘throw us a bone’ and give us even a HINT as to what the NATURE of the information would be that your source is saying would be ‘damaging to Eric Marsh’?
Is your source trying to say that there WAS some kind of argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( just as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said multiple witnesses have alleged )… and that Marsh was beating Steed over the head with all kinds of reasons to make the risky move until Steed finally just ‘gave in’…. or something?
I would extend this question to whether leaving his crew a very slim margin was one of the traits that RTS has heard got Marsh lectured by peers in the past.
One of the backdrop training issues here is, should Marsh and Steed have been expected to know how long going through that kind of brush would take? Should they have been expected to know about foreshortening as it would relate to the illusion of the BSR being “right there?” And, does the evidence suggest that they both in fact did have those baselines of knowledge?
Intuitively, I can see a conversation where one party is insisting they need to get down and to town quickly and that they can make it. In terms of group dynamics and social facilitation, particularly during times of high pressure when there is a feeling of urgency, it can be hard to avoid going along.
SR From my Back ground Yes Marsh and Steed would know the time it would take from past experience as well as living in that type of fuel. its a learning process as you gain knowledge and experience.
Agreed. That would be normal thing, and most likely was the case. I think it’s worth ruling out if possible the off chance that it wasn’t the case — for example, one poster here early on was insisting that GM would have been just zipping along on game trails, even though he self-reported that he, himself, was in an outdoor role. The answer as to whether they had that experience helps on evaluating the decision making process.
They likewise imo SHOULD have known that the BSR wasn’t “right there,” and likewise should have referred to maps and among other things used their phones if needed to do so. So, should have known they would be a long while working through the brush.
Some Game trails are passable in brush humans with packs and saws have more effort to work thru it vertical verses horizontal. as the brush thins you make better progress which the open flat below the crew looked like easer
moving than the canyon with boulders and heavy brush although there were openings the made purity good time to get to where they were from the saddle. It just took to long with what they were trying to beat.
If you call a painfully slow walk good time, they made good time. But it was still at a painfully slow walk. I’m sure you’ve been in similar brush and I am sure you know that even great urgency doesn’t allow you to move much faster. Particularly if keeping a large group together.
I still actually wonder if someone might have ‘fallen’ or otherwise came close to twisting an ankle or something ( but was actually OK, eventually )… and that might have ‘stopped’ the whole group for some minutes during the descent.
Unless that person really was seriously injured… I doubt we would have heard about that even over the GM intra-crew.
But it still would have caused a significant DELAY on the descent.
OR wtktt that person WAS seriously injured and this is why Eric returned to the crew. Their descent was intensely dangerous, the cobble mixed with cactus on a steep slope made for awful footing. I can imagine something more serious than a twisted ankle…a broken ankle, a blown knee, a broken leg maybe. If somebody was injured it would have changed everything quickly, and in their movement there was no room for error. I’ve pondered this possibility since the beginning, it’s something a Superintendent would do….run back for his crew to help with an injured GMIHC. I have no proof of this of course, it’s just a possibility.
Fire20+… you may be right.
The ONLY reason I have been excluding a really SERIOUS injury is because it is simply inconceivable to be that the moment any Supervsior ( GMIHC SUP Steed or DIVSA Marsh ) became aware of it… that they would NOT have been notifying Operations about it… and requesting assistance.
It’s just impossible for me to fathom that these guys might have been so insular and uncommunicative that they wouldn’t have immediately reported a serious injury the moment it happened.
But then again… these are the same guys who didn’t feel the need to CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY communicate about the actual move they were making in the middle of a dynamic fire situation…
…so maybe they really would have had that much of a “It’s nobody’s business but ours” mentality.
has anyone remembered the news when it first broke out? 18 men died. Has anyone listened to the radio communication links? 18 fatalities confirmed.
Is it possible that they found another body in another place?
Did they move a body to that spot?
How honest are the folks who were first on the scene?
Can they be given a polygraphed test to determine was there 18 at the site when first arrived?
I think that is an important question and issue myself.
Also, you have to remember one of the people FIRST ON THE SCENE was very good friends with one of the GMHS before the fire and now is no longer talking to the family so does that say something there. Guilt? Withholding information? Why be good good friends for over twenty years than cut the family out so cold? The first on scene are not in SAIR much for the details I need to know.
18. When and how did it become the number 19?
Joy— they confirmed 19 a short time latter’
The roster minus McDonough who was accounted for was 19 -1 =18 plus Marsh which then became 19.
The EMT corrected the number shortly after he made that statement when he checked and counted.
I don’t think there was any reason for a conspiracy here.
Had they had an injury I believe protocol would have dictated an immediate evacuation by Helicopter and a EMT to the scene.
Certainly it’s possible that someone had a minor or major mishap that was worse than a scrape. But, imo then they would have made even less progress.. Even if you have people upfront cutting what they can, it’s just slow going.
One of these days… someone needs to review the autopsy reports from that perspective and look for ‘fresh injuries’… even if in order to simply ( and permanently ) rule that OUT.
The fact remains that the GMHS overhead chose the absolute WORST possible time to descend to the BSR! They left when the winds and fire behavior were at a peak AND without the benefit of a REQUIRED lookout (LCES) OR letting OPS and/or AA know what they were intending and/or doing. and where they were going (LCES). They were there in the good, safe black all day long doing nothing physically, yet surely talking about these options and yet they DID nothing. There was NO need to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone!
In other words, they could have safely descended to the BSR hour(s) before and nothing adverse would have occurred. However, it would have FURTHER contributed to the Marsh hazardous attitude of ‘Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
WTKTT – I’ll address your question when time permits
Bruce Hanna of Osha faced injury going down that saddle so WWTKTT may be correct on the ankle problem.
And, to add on, I believe Fred or someone who is from that general area said that 20 minutes would be a good estimate for the amount of time it would take for a ‘Shot crew to traverse that last leg to the BSR.
who is Fred?
Elizabeth said:
20 minutes would be a good estimate for the amount of time it would take for a ‘Shot crew to traverse that last leg to the BSR.
Sonny and Joy Said: Question. where is the LAST LEG location? from where they deployed? possibly but not from the ridge top/saddle.
Yes Joy from where they deployed to the BSR.
we, both Sonny and I, saw the other areas outskirts of Prescott where they fought fires…they dealt with brush like they faced in Yarnell so yes to that.
Reply to Method’s post on November 13, 2014 at 4:21 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of
>> filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the
>> capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s
>> videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out.
>> Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results
>> in a wider view and some distortion around the edges.
>> So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Thank you, Method.
Obviously we are struggling to figure something out here that we really shouldn’t have to. The actual name of the DEVICE that took these videos SHOULD still be retained in the EXIF metadata that is always embedded in the actual videos…
…but in this case… it is NOT.
The original EXIF metadata has been REMOVED from these videos, which means they are in no way ‘original copies’ of the material that USFS has in their possession.
Actually… it is perfectly obvious now that even though that video of the final MAYDAY calls that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called ‘The Helmet Camera Video’… these new clips indicate that Aaron Hulburd probably wasn’t using an official ‘Helmet Camera’ at all.
Yes… there are obviously times when the device appears to be attached to his Helmet… such as in the original December footage with the MAYDAY calls captured…
…but in some of these new video clips it is obvious it was NOT attached to his Helmet at all while he was filming.
In video M2U00266R… it is obviously just sort of clipped to his shirt pocket… more like the ‘Body Cams’ that Police Officers use now.
When Aaron Hulburd is standing right in front of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… the camera is obviously at ‘pocket level’ and all we see is Yowell’s shirt buttons.
So it was more likely just a camera that was able to CLIP to things, like a Helmet bracket or a shirt pocket.
Thanks for your comment and your interest in this ongoing discussion.
It’s only 8:30 PM here in Albuquerque and I’m almost exhausted.
And I’m thinking that today we may have set something close to a record of the most posts published here in one day.
Think about that.
It appears to me that, contrary to some things that some folks have said about how there haven’t been any significant “Lessons Learned” coming out of this fire. there may be, in fact many significant “Lessons Learned” that this fire is TRYING TO TELL US, in spite of all kinds of things that have been, and continue to be, thrown up as obstacles by various Powers That Be.
In a way… the original SAIT itself seemed to conclude that they had only TWO options…
1) Tell the TRUTH about what happened that day.
2) Pretend the TRUTH is unknowable and call it a day.
They picked door number 2.
They totally misunderstood what was hiding behind ‘door number 2’.
And here is what else they ‘forgot’ ( or were too thick-headed to realize )…
1) This was a HISTORIC loss of life. HISTORY doesn’t like ‘mysteries’ and
they tend to get solved no matter how long it takes.
2) This is the first major fatality fire of the new ‘Internet Age’.. The ‘old games’ aren’t going to work anymore..
Mr. Gary Olsen actually warned them about number 2…. but they didn’t listen.
well said!
So I’ve been continuously wondering how/if this thing could possibly, all things considered, get bumped to a FEDERAL level, since we have here a Federal Agency obstructing a legally authoritative State level investigation.
I’ve been wondering if this could bump it to OSHA, but I had not found out if/how that might happen.
Then Joy wrote something about how this should trigger an FBI investigation.
So I posted, could this happen, all things considered??
Then I got this response:
Bob Powers says
NOVEMBER 13, 2014 AT 4:27 PM
“No
I am not even sure with this being a non Federal Fire that the FBI
would ever get involved OSHA would probably be the first step
State level if information was with held from them.
Again this was a state fire no Federal Employee hurt or a Fatality
so the only thing the FS is doing is protecting their Employees
who were there and were involved in any supervisory capacity or the Incident its self which could stretch to BR and Air Attack
That’s the only reason on gods green earth they are not releasing Written Statements and audio/video they have that was in the control of there employees.
So again I doubt that the FBI would even be involved.
Court records requests are a different story if the law suit continues both sides will get all the records and videos in original format. I guarantee you they have them or are getting them now……..With this little surprise being sprung on the Families Lawyer.”
So now I’m thinking there are two possibilities here.
ADOSH gets pissed off enough that they appeal to OSHA. After having refused to negotiate with AZF.
OR
The lawsuit process uncovers evidence of the USFS obstructing justice.
I just don’t know how this kind of stuff works.
But, clearly, someone with the appropriate level of federal authority needs to somehow be triggered to use that authority to intervene in this and call the USFS to account.
I’m having a hard time imagining how the USFS protecting their employees equates to…
…the USFS obstructing an official State OSH investigation by both with-holding FOIA-requested information without documenting/communicating their reasons for doing that…
…and without documenting their reasons for redacting (to the point of possibly tampering with that information/evidence) the information that they have just made public.
Marti—-Maybe I can help or try
First forget evidence and look at the information as having names attached that are FS Employees who lawyers are attempting to protect from any legal action.
First the redacted statements of the Blue Ridge Crew What they said could bring them into court to answer questions we do not know what they know or stated.
The same with all other FS employees on the Fire.
While it may be evidence at this point it is information tied to specific employees
That makes it harder to release so we have a double edged sword.
As I said the Court has the power to request any documents deemed evidence by either party The FS would have to release that evidence in full and the judge would deter its relevance to the case along with names of the employees that would be called for testimony so no one has really with held evidence till the case is set and goes to trial. That’s fairly simple as I am not a Lawyer but have sit and heard back and forth arguments by Lawyers in court over this same type of information. The FS would not be able to stop the court from getting the full video and the person who took it from having to testify as to its complete validity.
So right now it is a chess game to keep names of FS people private until the case comes to trial. Under certain legal terms they are allowed to redacted statements made by the people they represent.
Dose that help any there are legal terms and laws that are at work here but at this time they are not tampering with evidence unless the destroy it they are giving only what they have to under the law and still protect there client.
A simpleton’s explanation at best. There is also no Felony charges at this time.
so it is a civil law suit which changes a lot of the legal as I say mumbo jumbo.
It would seem that the FBI would get involved considering that millions in Federal Tax Monies have been squandered due to allowing this fire to an advanced stage and wild fire. Fema’s and BLM’s presence and observations in the early stages of the fire shows that the Feds were involved from the get go. There were federal lands that burned, albeit only 3%–still enough to involve the Feds. Also those Jet Liners that dumped thousands of dollars in retardant came from out of state, hence the crossing of state lines based on a felonious allowing of a fire to be the worse killer of humanity in many years. We heard of the arguement here in Yarnell of whether or not to put it out the first day or not and we have heard that a local dispacher was told to get rid of certain records pertaining to the fire. Those reports to us whether true or some people making up stories ought to at least be investigated and obviously not with the people who regard these investigations so lightly. To my way of thinking this situation demands an outside Federal Investigation. I am certain people have already contacted those outside agencies in a matter as serious as this one had become. I think it is called pork barrel money until it involves the death of men–then the realities of how operations are needlessly risking lives while ripping off the tax payer becomes criminal pork barrel.
I indeed see how the familes of these heroes are angry and add to that the people that have lost their homes and lives beyond that we begin to see that the tragedy extends beyond the lives of those heroes. What about the 33 deaths since the fire–the increased incident of lung problems and the loss of wild life. These are just a part of the mess debacle has created. Then you have people taking awards and bowing before audiences as though they did a great joy.
I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy and I will shortly attend a meeting about how a memorial should be. We think it should go to the site that the state wants to arrest you for going to see. You can go to Mann Gulch or the Storm King sights with no trepidation–People pay their respects to those sites–but this one has been treated differently. Why? Maybe someone can inform me on that one.
We will also ask for a memorial in Yarnell for those whom have died since the fire–Some 33 that Joy has names for since the fire. Perhaps not all are totally related but older folks that live her (myself included if 71 is senior) but this fire indeed has been a significant factor in those deaths. I think even of that young man Zack Ashoor of Phoenix who stopped me as I was walking down the street of Yarnell. He wanted to know where the site where those men died. He told me he had been in some of the bars with the men and when he heard the news he had broken down and cried. He wanted to see the place. So I took my time to hike him there and I noticed he used some type of breathing device,. although he seemed to make it well at my slow pace. He told me he had asthma. Once above the site he said I am going down to that fence, I have to go to pay my respects. I told him he might get arrested–he replied he would stand before any judge on that. I found that he was actually working on a respirator that would save lives for firemen–he said oxygen apparatus was just too heavy but he was trying to improve one so that weight would not be a factor. — That man was another hero in my book and I believe that breathing that smoke and bad air right after the fire actually escalated his problem–but nothing would have stopped him from paying respect to those men. I know it has affected plenty of residents including myself and Joy when it comes to breathing properly.
Yea there is more to come and Joy is expecting more quality photos from sources she has lined up. I don’t know that there will ever be a break here until the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes out– We need all the help we can get and just as Joy tells people, no matter how insignificant someones testimony or photo may seem, it may be just the thing to unveil another truth.
I want to bring this to the top since identifying the camera Aaron was using and, thus, how it would have recorded those videos is so critical right now:
Methods says
NOVEMBER 13, 2014 AT 4:21 PM
“Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out. Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results in a wider view and some distortion around the edges. So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.”
I’m asking back, since I’m really unfamiliar with these kinds of cameras.
Do you have any idea, at this point, what kind of camera Aaron might have been using, if not a GoPro?
And thank you so much for posting this.
From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom. These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle lenses on them. I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p. My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has all ready been discussed.
“R” = Redacted
OK. I’m gonna write about something that has been bugging me all along. I’ve written about it before, but these videos have something in them that puts a period on the end of all my thoughts.
Way downstream, on November 12, 2024 at 10:18 PM, WTKTT wrote:
“So just since Saturday… we finally see proof positive that the US Forestry Service has ALWAYS been withholding important evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident.
And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others?).”
Long, long ago, I saw, in one of Joy’s photos, a truck in a place where it shouldn’t have been at that time, according to my understanding of things.
It was, as it turned out, after a bit of confusion, Rance Marquez truck. It was on the dozer line, just above where GM’s sup/chase trucks were parked. After I figured out the 4-hour time correction for Joy’s photos, I realized that truck was sitting there at 10:21 AM.
At first I thought that was Cougan Carother’s truck and I was wondering “Why is Cougan there at that time???”
Then I figured out it was Rance’s truck, and still had the same question.
According to Rance’s Unit Logs, which he wrote up specifically for ADOSH, he arrived at ICP at about 1030, was briefed, had Cougan assigned to him as STL(T), and they left the ICP between 1130 and 1200, found Gary Cordes, who led them up to the dozer line, and visited w/Blue Ridge, and then headed up to the dozer line.
That narrative basically agrees with what Blue Ridge and Cordes says about their arrival.
So, again, why is his truck on the dozer line at 10:30? That was 1/2 hour after Blue Ridge got there, according to Joy’s photos.
He also says in his ADOSH interview:
“243 And by the time I left, um, so by the time I got radio – radio’s cloned and mobile clone – handheld cloned, all that kind of stuff, um, you know, it was
about 12:00 – 12:30 before I – about 11:30, 12:00 to – to – and 12:30 before I got
a ICP. At the last minute, um, another individual was assigned to go with me uh, by the name of Cougan Carothers as a Strike Team Leader Trainee.”
OK OK OK that could be just a matter of what our counselor says, that, in essence, mostly firefighters aren’t paying a lot of attention to their watches when they’re on a fire.
But that did kind of catch my attention.
Which led into the next thing that began bugging me.
When I was vehicle-searching, I noticed that Cougan’s blue pickup crossed the A2A videocam, heading east at 3:51 PM. I never saw it head back west.I realized that that didn’t make sense because I had just read Rance’s interview and unit logs.
His narrative and that blue truck appearance didn’t jive.
In his unit logs he wrote that he and Cougan were working, alongside five members of the Price-Valley Helitack Crew, Dan Philbin, and a bunch of “resources” doing structure protection (I think in the Sickles Road area) when, around 1600 the intensity increased, a SEAT dropped a load of retardant, he then had people mopping up, and then heard Air Attack ask if “they could hear the helicopter.” And then the Mayday communications began.
In his interview he said:
“1406 Uh, after the fire got um, was no longer a threat to the structures, we organized a little bit of mop up and um, I heard that and then right after that – right after the fire front passed those houses and the smoke kind of just subsided a little bit, um, I heard air – air to ground, which I’m at the time, I was told it was Lead 1-1, um, asking someone on the ground if they could see the helicopter and then um, a little bit later, I heard them ask if they could hear the helicopter which that got me uh, I knew something was not right exactly. Didn’t know what and then um, there was a loud – someone yelled into the radio and uh, and then who- and the Air Attack responded by whoever was yelling into the radio to please stop and uh, then he just kept calling for Granite Mountain. There was never a response after that.”
Then, according to his interview narrative he and Cougan were organized into a search and rescue group and sent down to Yarnell.
The problem is Cougan’s truck passing the Air2Air videocam at 3;51 PM.
So, I thought, well, maybe Cougan or both of them (they pretty much stuck together all day) went out to 89 for something then and came back. But it still bugged me. Partially because I never saw it come back west.
So, it turns out, Cougan’s truck is practically front and center starting at +3:37 in the Helmetcam video M2U00264. Cougan drives up Shrine Road to the point where Aaron is standing, turns around in the wide area where people coming in , including Tony Sciacca just earlier, were turning around, and they heads back out. This is, vaguely apparently, just before M2U00265, the Last Minutes video.
Cougan [and possibly Rance] couldn’t possibly have been at Sickles Road doing a big structure protection operation and on Shrine Road at the same time.
That’s a “timing mistake” a few orders of magnitude more serious than the one regarding his activities that morning.
Remember,
“And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others?).”
And thanks, Aaron, for finally showing me what Tony Sciacca looked like on this fire. Not knowing that, while trying to identify all the people in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, was VERY frustrating.
LOL. The moment I saw that Blue Pickup turning around right there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot my immediate thought was… “Geez… Marti is going to do a big WTF over THAT… it’s not supposed to be there at that time. No way.’
Even now… does it matter where any particular truck was when?
The answer is still YES… because it MATTERS whether we can trust people’s accounts of WHERE they were and WHAT they were doing and WHEN.
It also still matters whether external evidence supports statements being made in people’s testimony to both the SAIT and ADOSH.
It matters very much.
I just checked Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview one more time to make sure I wasn’t missing something.
He DOES tell ADOSH he never had any doubts that Marsh was headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch… and that he thought they all had ‘plenty of time to get there’…
…but it’s been confirmed now.
Gary Cordes NEVER mentions to the investigators that he actually had a PLAN to make SURE Marsh and Granite Mountain got out of there safely’ and that even before the deployment he specifically instructed his Task Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel to send an engine over there and then specifically told Esquibel to tell that Engine Captain/Crew to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ arriving there and to then ‘make sure they get out safely’.
There is NOTHING in his testimony about this. Zero. Zip. Nada.
So… we really are back to not being able to trust that ANY of these firefighters were telling ADOSH ‘the whole story’. We know now that a lot of them were, themselves, probably ‘withholding information’ from investigators.
With regards to Gary Cordes’ plan that we now can hear him sharing with Tyson Esquibel… has it dawned on anyone else that what Cordes was essentially doing was telling Esquibel to send an Engine over to the BSR and tell it to act as LOOKOUT for Granite Mountain?
Cordes is telling Esquibel to send an engine and be sure to tell him to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ ( to arrive there ) and to ‘make sure they get out safely’.
That sure as hell sounds like someone telling someone else to establish a LOOKOUT for another group of men.
It never happened.
It was too late for Cordes’ PLAN to make any difference.
But what if he had given those instruction to Esquibel even 15 minutes earlier?
What if there really HAD been an Engine sitting at the Boulder Springs Ranch with Cordes’ specific instructions ( via Esquibel ) to ‘watch for them arriving there and make sure they get out safely’.
Maybe ( just maybe ) that Engine could have SEEN the danger and would have had enough time to WARN them about what they were walking straight into… and everything might have been different that day.
15 minutes might have made all the difference. There would have been time for them to either start HAULING ASS forward to the Ranch and (perhaps) beat the fire there… or start HAULING ASS backwards and make it back up ( and OVER ) that ridge.
Yes… I know… Gary Cordes DID tell ADOSH that he actually thought Marsh and Granite Mountain had ‘plenty of time’ to get to the BSR… and I assume that was his way of telling ADOSH why he wasn’t more concerned about them that day and didn’t do more to VERIFY where they were or what their real STATUS was…
…but I still can’t help thinking.
What if…
Maybe another ‘Lesson Learned’ here… for ANYONE in a command position?
If you actually KNOW exactly where a group of men is headed under dynamic fire conditions… and there is ANY thought in your mind that they might actually need Engine and/or LOOKOUT support…
…don’t hesitate.
Do it NOW. Not later.
Your instincts might be right… and minutes might matter.
I could answer this but it makes Cordes a very stupid OPS to even allow it in the first place. Extreme calculated risk to move a crew??????????????
This also completely ties into the reality that there was no established ‘Division Z Supervisor’ in that area that day… at this crucial time.
We now have evidence that BOTH Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby
and SPGS1 Gary Cordes were ‘picking up the slack’ there at various times and taking it upon themselves to do things ( or just coordinate things ) that a ‘Division Supervisor’ for that sector would have normally been doing.
Cordes’ instinct to send an engine to BSR to ‘make sure Granite gets out of there safely’ was correct ( even if he executed the plan too late )… but is that something a ‘Structure Protection Guy’ in a sector of a fire should have even been responsible for doing?
I think Cordes and Frisby were VERY much aware that they were ‘on their own’ down there, even after Musser showed up… and they were just doing things they felt needed to be done because no one else was on top of all this.
I think the absolutely botched management structure of this fire really DID contribute to the ‘accident’ ( and all the other near ‘accidents’ ) that day.
Again I say lessons learned Esperanza FIRE you would be sending Engines down a road being over run by fire to a very hot SZ if they got there How would they help a crew 2/3 of the way down a mountain?
Just putting more fire fighters in harms way or a structure FF attitude.
It was way to late by the time he was asking.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 12, 2014 at 10:40 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> Also in the one video that homeowner with white truck I am working
>> with cold case to identify if that is our missing man—suicide hiker— who
>> after the fire went missing…the neighboring folks stated they saw fire
>> folks on his property as well in the Shrine area when he was still around
>> so it is interesting if it was Mark Danielson and will have to investigate
>> as to why they had fire meetings on his property he was staying.
>> I will get into this more later on when I have the time.
Joy… if you are talking about that moment in video M2U00266R where
that white pickup with the ‘camper top’ and ‘metal rack on top’ comes out
of that driveway at +2 minutes and 53 seconds into the video… then here is
some more information on that.
I don’t know if any of this will help you at all… but on the mere CHANCE
that it might… here it is…
** Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Camera Video M2U00266R
This is the video that has face of the driver of that white pickup truck manually ‘pixelated’ by whoever was redacting these videos.
There also is no moment when the license plate of the white truck is visible… but after the driver of the white pickup truck agrees to drive the OTHER vehicle he says he owns out ( which is an orange/rust ISUZU )… the license plate of that ISUZU does become ‘visible’ for two frames in the video. See below for possible license plate number.
The ADDRESS of the house that the firefighters in the video are standing in front of with the driveway where the white pickup ’emerges’ is…
16863 W Shrine Rd., Yarnell, AZ 85362
According to PUBLIC records on the Yavapai County Assessors ‘Parcel Lookup’ website… the ‘parcel number’ for the property where the white pickup truck emerged is…
203-11-104F
Public Information for Parcel 203-11-104F:
Physical Address: 16863 W Shrine Dr.
Owner on Record: BECKETT CARL E & ARLENE M JT
Owner’s Mailing Address: 2165 S JAVALINA AVE, YUMA, AZ 85364-6171
From Video clip M2U00266R
—————————————————————————-
+2:53
The white pickup truck is now coming out of his driveway and pulling up to Jason Clawson ( in the white helmet ) on Shrine Road.
+2:54
(Aaron Hulburd speaking to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Is anybody else in here? This is the last person?
+2:57
(Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air-To-Ground
+3:00
The white pickup stops at the end of the driveway and the driver can now be seen. His FACE has been ‘pixelated’ by someone and that is one of the reasons this filename has the ‘R’ suffix on the end. This video has been ‘Redacted’ in places.
The white pickup has a full ‘camper top’ and a black ‘metal rack’ on the top that extends the length of the camper top and all the way over the cab of the truck as well.
The driver is wearing a white, short sleeved shirt. Possibly just a white T-shirt.
The driver is now about to ask Jason Clawson if one of them could drive another vehicle that he has ‘down the road a ways’.
(Driver of the white pickup): Can I get one a you guys to drive my other vehicle down the road a ways?
Jason Clawson agrees to move his other vehicle.
+4:31
Jason Clawson appears coming down the driveway driving an orange/rust colored ISUZU SUV with WHITE ‘canoe rack’ style horizontal bars on the top over the cab and the very back of the roof. It has ‘square’ headlights and an ISUZU logo plate on the front grill. Spare tire with a WHITE interior rim is mounted externally on the left rear of the back of the ISUZU.
At +4:36 in the video… the license plate on the back of the ISUZU becomes ‘in focus’ for only 2 video frames. It is an Arizona plae that *appears* to be number… “J9J LTM”
+4:38
Jason Clawson drives the ISUZU to the EAST on Shrine Road, following the white pickup truck.
—————————————————————————–
Thanks for this.
I was seriously wondering who that fire-fighter driving that truck was.
I still haven’t gotten solid enough on what the Prescott Three look like.
That moment when Jason Clawson pulls out of the driveway in the ISUZU and looks directly at Aaron Hulburd’s camera is actually the ONLY time in ALL of these video sequences when we can see exactly what Jason Clawson looks like.
In other online photos of him… he is clean shaven.
This day ( June 30, 2013 ), Jason Clawson had a ‘goatee style’ beard growing.
great information. having to go to Yarnell meeting so my time is up here but look forward to looking at this post again.
WTKTT, kudos to you for the fade clips from the air footage.
).
I have no clue if they are accurate or not, but I most certainly could not have done them! Good on you! If you end up doing the rest of them, I think that will be incredibly valuable (almost as much as the video clip with Musser in it
Anyway, just wanted to give you a shout-out and kudos.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 13, 2014 at 5:05 pm
>> Elizabeth wrote…
>>
>> WTKTT, kudos to you for the fade clips from the air footage.
>> I have no clue if they are accurate or not.
They are accurate, counselor.
My only point was to say “Good on ya, WTKTT.” And I meant it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 13, 2014 at 9:48 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> Questions from a dummy????????
>>
>> The breaks in the Head cam video would they show start and stop times?
Yes.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If the head cam ran continuously with out being turned off and on why
>> the breaks in the 17 videos?
It is actually POSSIBLE that Aaron Hulburd could have been filming CONTINUOUSLY,
without choosing to STOP the camera… yet the result would still be MULTIPLE
filenames ( all starting with M2U prefix ) on the camera’s SD memory card.
Actually… a LOT of ‘Helmet Cameras’ operate that way.
Some will only record video in 5 minute ‘segments’ before creating another
separate filename on the memory card.
For example…
Review of HD 720P DVR Waterproof Helmet Camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqP17NQlYo
From the ‘Comments’ associated with this video…
———————————————————-
I bought one of those Chinese cheapy helmet cams off eBay.
It captures video files in 5 min segments (continuously).
———————————————————-
So anyone using a Helmet Camera like the one above could
shoot ‘continuously’… but they would still end up with a bunch
of 5 minutes video files ( each with its own filename ) on their
memory card.
We still do NOT know what kind of Helmet Camera Hulburd was using.
It’s pretty obvious it was NOT a ‘Chinese Cheapy’… but it still MAY have
been using the same technique of allowing ‘continuous filming’… but
still breaking everything out into multiple ‘filenames’ on the memory card.
We KNOW that the video ‘segment’ from Hulburd’s camera that was released
back in December and captured the MAYDAY traffic was 7 minutes and 49
seconds long.
That means that even if Hulburd’s camera was going to ‘break up’ continuous
filming into ‘segments’… those ‘segment lengths’ were probably more like a
default of 10 minutes each rather than just 5 like a ‘Chinese Cheapy’ would do.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Another gut check— was the video edited by the FS some time ago
>> to the 43 min. sections and that is what they released when requested.
>> Along with additional Redactions
>> When in fact there is a continues video of say 1 or 2 hours.
It’s possible.
See other comments about this below.
The footage that HAS been released shows that Aaron Hulburd was a true ‘videophile’.
He LOVED that Helmet Camera and he LOVED to USE it.
The footage released reveals that his default HABIT was to simply turn the camera ON
and LEAVE IT RUNNING until he had a very, very good reason to have to turn it OFF.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> It is hard to believe the person knowingly would have turned the video
>> off and on in segments especially with all the action and audio going on.
Yes.. .it is… but see new information above.
Even if he WAS filming ‘continuously’… most Helmet Cameras are still going to
‘break up’ that contiguous footage into multiple fixed-length ‘segments’ on
the memory card… each with their own filename.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Note the ride up the mountain in the ATV
>> If he was turning off and on why not off during that segment?
Exactly. He wasn’t doing that because that was not his HABIT.
His obvious HABIT when he thought something important was happening
was to turn it ON and then just LEAVE it on… no matter what.
As Marti said… THAT is what a ‘Helmet Camera’ is FOR.
It’s so you can capture EVERYTHING going on and not worry you are ‘missing’ anything.
If all you want to do is shoot short video clips… you can save yourself a LOT of money and just use a damn iPhone and then put it back in your pocket every time.
>> Bob Powers also said
>>
>> I contend there are segments edited out of the Video and that
>> is why we have 18 seperiate videos
I contend the same… but see above.
Even if AZF had just released 2 hours of absolutely contiguous video from
Hulburd’s Helmet Camera ( with no ‘cuts’ whatsoever )… we would STILL be
seeing a long list of separate M2Uxxxxx filenames because of the way most
of the Helmet Cameras STORE the video on the memory card.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Does this camera stamp date and time as most do?
Yes. It would also be timestamping the ‘segments’ of a continuous video.
>> Was that intentionally removed?
Yes.
Until we see, and can examine, M2Uxxxxx files from Hulburd’s camera that still have all the EXIF metadata contained in them… then no FOIA request has been successfully filled ( according to law ).
Very interesting, thanks!
I can understand why the camera would break the stream into pieces–write-speeds to the memory card. I would imagine that would vary depending on the resolution/format of the video it is capturing.
If it was doing that–breaking up long video runs into smaller segments, it still probably wouldn’t have really huge time-breaks between them, I would think.
But I haven’t watched that many headcam videos.
It would also mean that the whole long total video stream Aaron most likely would have been capturing would have been file-name sequenced in order.
That would mean that whoever was picking and choosing what to publish would still have had to rename those files in order to publish them with the names they have here. Or they wouldn’t have ended up with the names they have here.
Unless Aaron didn’t film anything between 2:30 PM and the Shrine Road sequence.
And thus didn’t have all that footage that included the Options Conversation/Whatever/Related Stuff.
The duration of the gap between video chunks would also, I would think, vary depending on the speed of the card it’s writing to.
Most people who shoot video shoot it on the fastest cards they can afford to get their hands on.
Marti— I am of the opinion if they made breaks as WTKTT says at 10 min. intervals
even the Breaks should no stop the filming for more than the blink of an eye.
That would be very frustrating if you were losing video you wanted.
What would explain the shorter Videos?
My opinion the M2U numbers assigned were done during the copy over process to U-tube. What dose M2U mean????? This was not the original videos so an assignment of numbers could have come as the segments were copied just my thoughts…… More questions not noted by the FS
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am of the opinion if they made breaks as WTKTT says at
>> 10 min. intervals even the Breaks should no stop the filming
>> for more than the blink of an eye.
That’s correct… but there wouldn’t even be a ‘blink of an eye’.
The device is ‘caching’ the video and is able to break it up and
store it WHILE the filming continues with absolutely not one
frame ever missing from the final result.
Once you COMBINE all these separate video segment ‘files’ from the memory card back into one long contiguous MOVIE… you would NEVER know where the ‘breaks’ originally were. Unless that camera was an absolute piece of shit… you wouldn’t even see any little ‘flashes’ or ‘burps’ at the points where the video segments recombined.
That includes the audio. There wouldn’t even be an ‘pops’ or ‘clicks’, either.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> That would be very frustrating if you were losing video you wanted.
Exactly. If any ‘video camera’ was doing that to your movies… you would take it right back to the store and ask for your money back.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What would explain the shorter Videos?
Only 4 possibilities, really…
1) Hulburd really was turning his camera on/off during that critical time on Shrine Road and ‘accidentally’ missed some of the most crucial moments.
2) Footage has been cut from the START of the actual M2Uxxxx file.
3) Footage has been cut from the END of the actual M2Uxxxx file.
4) Both 2 and 3 above.
Personally… I really doubt it was ‘door number 1’ up above.
It just wouldn’t match Hulburd’s HABIT for all the other videos we see.
The same instincts I had that KNEW there HAD to be more Hulburd footage ovrerall are simply saying “No way” he would have missed some of those important moments on Shrine Road… OR that he would not have used the camera for more than 2 hours between filming Todd Abel’s RECON flight… and then also missed all the other vehicles evacuating the Shrine area.
>> Bob Powers on Shrine road
>> My opinion the M2U numbers assigned were done during the
>> copy over process to U-tube. What dose M2U mean?????
As far as I know… the M2U prefix being used for video filenames indicates the device recording the video is one that is manufactured by Sony… or even if it is sold under a different brand, Sony would still be the OEM ( Original Equipment Manufacturer ).
M2U is also a known file extension that could also appear on the ends of files which defines its content. It is NOT normally used to identify video files. The M2U file extension is normally reserved for format files that are specific to the Maxthon Cloud Browser.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> This was not the original videos so an assignment of
>> numbers could have come as the segments were copied
Yes. It’s possible.
I’m gonna go all ‘geeky’ on ya here for a moment, Mr. Powers… but what you are about to see is that there IS more evidence ‘lurking’ in these videos.
Even though what has been released are not ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the originals and all the original DEVICE metadata has been purposely REMOVED from them… there are STILL some pieces of EXIF metadata that will survive most ‘conversions’ and ‘editing’.
One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA
FWVGA = Full Wide Video Graphics Array.
However… any file in the AZF release that has had an ‘R’ added to the end of it ends up with a DIFFERENT video resolution.
All the files with an ‘R’ added seem to be in the 1280×720 format.
Also… the M2Uxxxx clips that have retained what appears to be the original FWVGA ( 854×480 ) formatting are also showing a sound codec handler named Lavf54.29.104…
…but the M2Uxxxx files in the release that have an ‘R’ added to the filename are simply showing a sound codec handler name of ‘Apple’.
So what the hell does all that mean?
It means that the ORIGINALS ( from Hulburd’s camera ) were probably shot with a device that uses the FWVGA 854×480 dimensions and the Lavf54.29.104 audio codec…
…but files that have been EDITED by US Forestry were edited on an
Apple computer and then ‘saved’ back to disk with an altered format
of 1280×720 and a reconvert on the audio track using Apple’s sound codec.
This does NOT mean that the ones still using the FWVGA 854×480 format and the Lav54.29.104 codec have NOT been altered.
They still might have been ‘truncated’ either at the start, or the end… or both… and still retained those settings of the orginal metadata.
It just means that it is perfectly obvious which files the US Forestry was editing manually and making actual CHANGES to the interior of the video before ‘saving’ the material back to disk… and that all these files they were EDITING were being done on an Apple computer.
Even if they hadn’t been adding that stupid ‘R’ letter to the ends of the filenames they are ADMITTING to altering… we would still have been able to tell which ones they were monkeying with on their Apple Computer.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
I am still checking on that. Stay tuned.
I still maintain that the US Forestry Service has still NOT lawfully complied with any legal FOIA request because we are not seeing the actual EXIF DEVICE information in these files.
You are allowed to make redactions and claim ‘exemptions’ under the FOIA rules… but you are still supposed to deliver ‘essentially identical’ copies of the material you have in your possession.
Removing MOST of the original EXIF data is still a no-no, legally speaking.
That answered a lot thanks
One question if the camera was not making files why all the M2U files?
My humble brain still says they were added during the edit of the original Video to make the Files look in sequence which they are not as we are missing what are in the breaks.
Humble and simple mind M2Uxxxxxxx ME TO YOU #######
Edited by some one and sent to someone with the number sequence.
To Simple Right _________ oh well????????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 14, 2014 at 12:09 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> One question if the camera was not making files
>> why all the M2U files?
>>
>> My humble brain still says they were added during
>> the edit of the original Video to make the Files look
>> in sequence which they are not as we are missing
>> what are in the breaks.
Well… to entertain the scenario that we really are looking at separate ‘chopped out’ clips from what was once maybe just ONE or TWO ( long ) ‘M2Uxxxxx’ video files… all you have to do is imagine how ANYONE would go about accomplishing that.
Aaron Hulburd himself tells KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that there was at least one point where he had turned his camera off for 2-3 minutes.
I now believe ( and I think Marti agrees ) that what he might be telling Yowell there refers directly to that moment at the end of the original 7 minute and 49 second MAYDAY footage when Hulburd has put his Helmet on the top of his truck… and then appears to reach up and turn it OFF for a moment.
THAT could have been the moment when he was ‘changing batteries’, and it might have taken those 2-3 minutes he was telling Yowell about.
Other than THOSE 2 or 3 minutes Hulburd actually tells Yowell about… Hulburd says he ‘recorded ALL of it’… and is obviously STILL trying to record everything that is happening even to the point where we hear him telling Yowell about the 2-3 minutes he had it OFF.
My point here is that Hulburd himself is heard telling Yowell he had turned his camera off at least ONCE in this timeframe… but for no more than 2-3 minutes.
That means… for sure and certain.. that there would have been at least TWO ‘M2Uxxxxxx’ filenames there on his memory card.
So now imagine you are some ‘tech’ at US Forestry and Mike Dudley and Tom Harbour ( who signed the FOIA letter John Dougherty received from USFS ) have just told you exactly what parts of the overall video are NOT going to be released… and it is now YOUR job to ‘make this look good’.
Of COURSE you would simply see that the longer files all begin with M2U prefix plus a sequential numbering scheme.
So whatever CUTS you end up with to fulfill the ‘assignment’… of COURSE you would simply take it upon yourself to follow the existing ‘M2U’ prefix and sequential numbering scheme.
Again… I am NOT saying it went down like this… but if it DID… then it makes perfect sense that whoever was tasked with ‘chopping up’ the originals would stick with the M2U + number naming scheme.
One more thing that might be neither here nor there… but is still ‘interesting’.
Whoever was tasked with REDACTING and EDITING these Hulburd movie files up that at the US Forestry Service really knew what they were doing and how to use whatever video editing tools they were using.
One of the PROOFS of that is the moment at + 2 minutes and 53 seconds into video M2U00266R when that ‘white pickup’ is coming out of the driveway towards the spot where Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are standing on Shrine Road.
That is the moment when the US Forestry Service decided they needed to MASK the FACE of the citizen driving that white pickup truck.
They simply used a ‘floating pixelation’ BLUR circle to mask his face as he pulled out of the driveway and Hulburd filmed him talking with Jason Clawson ( in the white helmet ).
Someone had to ‘apply’ this BLUR circle to the man’s face MANUALLY… as the video played.
Sometimes that is really tricky to do… and you have to be really GOOD at it to get it totally right.
Well… whoever was doing that ‘Face BLUR’ for the US Forestry Service was, in fact, VERY good at it.
I checked the entire sequence frame by frame because I knew that sometimes even a single ‘frame’ can be missed and you would still get to see the person’s face.
Whoever was doing that ‘BLUR OUT’ for USFS never missed a beat.
There is even a moment when he/she STOPPED the BLURRING because Jason Clawson’s back was now to the camera and was successfully masking the driver’s face… but there is moment even with Clawson blocking the face when the driver simply LEANS FORWARD for a few frames and his face emerges from Clawson’s left side.
Well… they caught that TOO.
Whoever was doing the BLUR OUT caught that one-or-two frame moment when the guy’s face became visible and they added some BLUR OUT to THOSE frames, too.
So they were GOOD. They didn’t make some of the mistakes others do when attempting this ‘pixelation’ mask-out on someone’s face.
>> Bob Powers also asked…
>>
>> Humble and simple mind M2Uxxxxxxx
>> ME TO YOU #######
>> Edited by some one and sent to someone with
>> the number sequence.
>>
>> To Simple Right _________ oh well????????
The ‘M2U’ movie filename prefix IS a known, valid naming convention for some video devices.
Example: Just Google ‘M2U00261’ yourself and you will see what I mean. TONS of ‘Google hits’ are going to appear and the are all valid VIDEOS on various places like YouTube, VIMEO, WatchToday, and other common video sharing sites.
So there ARE, in fact, a LOT of ‘devices’ out there using the M2U file naming prefix and a LOT of people are using them to shoot videos.
Also… M2U is a known acronym for an online service called ‘Movies To You’. I don’t think that has anything to do with Aaron Hulburd or his camera, though.
Interesting and Thanks—- I dropped the last in as a chuckle to a geek …
From M2U… thanks.
It’s going to take some humor to get through this latest round of bullshit ‘brought to you by’ the USFS and Arizona Forestry.
And, also, I think it’s premature to assume at this point that Aaron’s camera was doing that short-segment “chunking” thing.
I don’t know as much about higher end cams like the GoPro, but, as I was writing what I wrote above about Rance’s narrative, I started thinking about that camera they used for the Air2Air videos. It’s the Contour, one of those “Best 10s” in the article.
It was capable of recording the long videos in that Air2Air collection without any gaps/chunking. So I guess it depends on the camera’s ability to write to a card continuously as fast as the card can be written to without buffering.
Personally, given the huge popularity of the GoPro for this sort of stuff, I’m guessing it can do that also.
So, I guess, until we have access to some version of the “original videos,” with their camera metadata, it’s really not possible to know if Aaron was using a camera capable of truly “continuously recording” or one that has to write to the card in smaller pieces.
Don’t know if I can find out what make the camera is but am working with my
confections will see if I can get something for us. Along shot but maybe..
Thanks. It would be really helpful to know what camera Aaron was using.
Marti… see a longer post above.
There ARE some clues here to help us.
All of the M2Uxxxxx files released by US Forestry that do NOT have an ‘R’ on the end of the filename are all showing what appears to be some of the original EXIF data.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
Also… if this device BELONGS to the Prescott National Forest… you would think it should be easy to find a purchase order since you and I ( and a lot of other taxpayers ) actually PAID for it.
That’s also what blows my mind in all of this.
All of this back and forth… and gamesmanship… and struggle to simply uncover what is supposed to already be PUBLIC information is basically just ‘your tax dollars at work’.
We are NOT dealing with Exxon Mobile, here.
Every single person involved with both the Yarnell Hill Fire AND both of the investigations… and every single person we are having to deal with now at AZF and USFS… are CIVIL SERVANTS.
Their paychecks ALL come from US.
Someone needs to remind them of that fact.
Joy and I attended the local town meeting last night. They did say they are in the process of creating a memorial for the 19 Fallen. When the committee meets for that we hope to be there. We would also like to see a memorial for those who have succumbed since the fire. The local Fire EMT said they have been taking in the dead at an average of two a month since the fire. Well Joy has counted 33 dead since the fire and is still counting. Now considering that there are only between 2 and 3 hundred homes, many empty or just used as a second residence, that is a lot of people. The population is only 649 by the 2010 census and has not changed a lot– 645 2014, Now we see how that disaster not only killed 19 good firemen but also cut short many lives since. Stress from loss of home is one of the greatest stressors one can endure. Heart attack, lung diseases, cancer deaths, COPD are all exacerbated —especially in the elderly. They are much more affected by this–one lady Joy knew well died within two weeks after her home was destroyed. Both Joy and I have felt the effects on our breathing and she too has been diagnosed with terminal factors at her young age of 42. So there is much to be considered in a situation that could easily been handled the first day, yet was not.
Joy confronted the local new fire chief for Yarnell. We had been getting word from people that he had said he wanted us arrested for hiking people up above the site where the 19 died. We only hike 100 percent legal, not directly to the fence but on the mountain above that place. He said he had no comment when Joy confronted him. Anyway it did bring on a cursory investigation of his background qualifications. Best we could find he only has had EMT experience and never has fought any kind of fire. Perhaps he has but we haven’t found that information. We wonder how those fire chief’s get their qualifications. Well for me I like Dr. Ted Putnam’s qualifications–11 years smoke jumper puts him in the realm of those who know their business–and he is damn good at investigating fires. Whew he did teach me a lot and humbles my fire fighting experience when years ago my Dad and I would contain lightening strikes with shovels, pick and axe.
I do hope you enjoy the new photos and get some more clarity– That Marti is so good at taking those photos apart and connecting the dots–and thanks Bob Powers and the Murray Taylor’s of the world. If this fire chief does not pan out I hope we get one of those qualified like you fellows.
Say I give much credit to Joy. She has worked almost non-stop on this and has come up with evidence that I am sure certain people wince at. One government investigator wrote “Oh Shit ” from evidence she once sent him. We did not know what that meant but was likely an apropos comment.
And about Sonny–I too wandered around after the fire–we lost our apartment number 15 at the Oak Park Motel shortly after the fire and that was directly related to the fire. I was a homeless wanderer in Montana for a time just sleeping in my Jeep Wagoneer. I hitch hiked from near Salt Lake City after the Jeep blew up, then wound up back here with Joy in Yarnell. This fire has had its toll on all of us and we do wonder why these things are allowed to progress to the point that it has killed so many young firemen and caused plenty of pain and consternation for the residents as well. So yes, we will not cast those men to the wind– but we will continue to learn every little detail and truth in this debacle and this we have to believe will save some good ones from another disaster such as we have seen here.
Joy and I do have blazers that say CHANGE THE WAY THEY FIGHT FIRES on the back and 6-30-13 on the front.
Thanks to you all for your concerns and work–the thing that honors the 19 heroes and all those in the fire fighting profession.
Thanks, Sonny, and you are so welcome.
It would be interesting to corral the data that could compare the Yarnell fatality rates before the fire vs after the fire. My mom is 93 and I see how relatively “fragile” she is. Which is way more than I am, turning 63 this month, and finding myself way more “fragile” than I was just five or so years ago. That was one of the things that struck me on this fire–how so many elders were left at risk from it. And, definitely, Joy, at her relatively young age, shouldn’t be having the health issues she is having.
And, as I was watching the recently released videos, how Aaron and the guys around him were coughing so hard.
So sorry to hear of what you lost after the fire. So inspired by what you continued to do, continuing to press on after everything.
Interesting about the blazers. I have, on my right wrist, the white bracelet from Julieanne Ashcraft that says “Be Better” and “Yarnell 19.” The one our Vice President wears. The one that inspires me, every day, to “Be Better.”
And yes, we will continue to plug for every little detail this fire, and the 19 that it killed, are trying to speak to us.
yeah! it worked!
Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:19 AM
the Yarnell library pcs are down today in 15 minutes the technician will be here so this will be quick than we are off to Dan the Garden guy to get some free garden plants to make a memorial garden for the 19 and the many losses in Yarnell/Peeples since the fire today. Now, the Yarnell Meeting I did get snarks believe it or not replies that “you are a Congress women—WHY YOU AT YARNELL MEETING?” Thank God we are one another’s listed caregivers to wash their comment out…same folks that hugged me and greeted me with a sworded tongue and piercing death look than today looking to hug. You learn who is FOR REALS in this town when you attend a town meeting with government folks & some cronies there too. What is funny too because I canceled my subscription. To what? Long ago to other peoples “issues”…I do not even let it phase me. They are the ones that want to move forward I reckon. I also learned 2 had us privately investigated and they think I am into real estate. never. OH MY! WAS THEIR PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR “GOOGLE”??? There is 8 Joy Collura in the USA and 5 of my maiden name so I am sure the only thing before this fire I was online for was HikeArizona…when I dabbled in the limelight stuff you might see me but I think I requested Tony Tarantino/Pacino family to omit any public information of me in the mid 2000s in regards to my culinary ice art photos or online network communications. I was not an online person much except to communicate to here and there folks. I mainly did my hiking adventures and just did the housewife thing so ohhh what a turn out on your PI crap. Anyways, gotta run…tech is here. Write more on the Yarnell meeting soon and other new information.
Now it is 3:50 and ten minute to closing and I sent anyone I had on my email area the new information we got today via new photos via photos off 2 IPOD’s and camera Olympus fe-5010 12 megapixel from the same person wants to be unnamed due to local politics and to help on P6300649 since I know for fact that answer it is the prison Lewis Crew with Fred Andrews standing. The rest of the pics MARTI REED came to mind…look forward to her looking at people and trucks and such and her feedback…THESE ARE PROPERLY TIME STAMPED. about time.
Already more photos are in midst of delivery to Sonny’s snail mail.
oh and my hiking page w w w . zazzle . c o m /congress_arizona*
otherwise I dont do internet
Will look for that, thanks!
And, yeah, I’ve had trouble posting, even when doing it correctly. Learned to copy the post before posting it, just in case.
I think the site is overwhelmed today, with posters and readers. Which is, all in all, a good thing.
wow, this is my 28th attempt so before writing it all to have it not copy/paste
TEST POST
As I sais back on the 18th there was a whole Video out there with a lot of information on it I was told of some of that info which was copied from Radio traffic which would put Marsh in a bad light. also the argument.
On the 13th of Oct. people were viewing a full video in Prescott some of the info out of that was some Family members were upset with what was shown. ( don’t know now what Families saw it or just 1)
There has been some specific info that came out of that showing that triggered the info I got about it and released here. Some I was deeply concerned about and would not bring up here for the sake of the Families that check here.
So all I am saying is yes there is more than we got A lot more and I knew people were viewing it before it was released as john had also found out it existed. Facts that are right in front of us…
In this case, the simplest explanation does seem to be that there is more out there. It explains why informal reports such as yours a few weeks ago, which have normally been pretty reliable, in this case did not reflect of the substance of the released videos that we have seen over the last week.
Reply to SR post on November 13, 2014 at 1:45 pm
>> SR said…
>>
>> In this case, the simplest explanation does seem to be that there
>> is more out there. It explains why informal reports such as yours
>> a few weeks ago, which have normally been pretty reliable, in this
>> case did not reflect of the substance of the released videos that
>> we have seen over the last week.
SR… I believe you may be ‘spot on’.
The people who were initially reporting what THEY saw in the footage might have been actually looking at ALL of it… and that’s where the ‘could be damaging to Marsh’ statements were coming from…
…but those people may have had no idea that USFS was going to REMOVE those very parts of the footage that related to Eric Marsh before ‘releasing’ the stuff.
It was actually ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) who gave the first ‘heads up’ about the possibility of more Hulburd footage about to be released. RTS put the total at 42-43 minutes. He also said he heard about it from TWO firefighters who had been ‘engaged in Yarnell that day’.
I am in NO WAY suggesting that RTS should reveal his sources… but let’s just say that if they were any combination of ‘The Prescott Three’ ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )… then it is more than likely all THREE of those men were fully aware of what was in ALL of Aaron’s video footage.
So perhaps they really were thinking ( and telling RTS ) that if everything THEY knew to be in the footage was released… that it would, in fact, be very damaging to Eric Marsh ( Such as perhaps some radio capture of the alleged argument Marsh had with Jesse Steed ).
Whoever was passing that ‘might be damaging to Marsh’ information on to RTS some weeks ago might be just as astonished as we are to see what was ACTUALLY released on Saturday.
In other words… they thought some stuff that THEY knew was in the material was going to be ‘in the public release’… and now it just isn’t.
All I can say is very, very close. The gag orders are keeping many of these real and down to earth Fire Fighters from speaking out or releasing what they have.
They want the facts out there as we do. The question is how many FS employees will end up possibly in court in Law Suits over Yarnell?
After the Humbling call I received yesterday I am dead set on finding out what is on this Video for the Families and for there children who deserve compensation for what occurred. I will not rest till I know the answers for them and there children even those who did not File. There are people out there that read this Please speak up for all the families who lost love ones
they deserve your support. Not your silence. They will live with this for ever.
At 9 Years old I remember my fathers Casket being moved from a train depot to a train we were switching to. Others will for get over time but families have memories that are imbedded for live pictures that never go away that reoccur in memories as vivid as a Picture.
They deserve to know the facts If you have them it is time to tell the FS to stop this crazy game. There is no self worth in hiding behind a government Gag Order. Let the cards fall where they fall and deal with it.
And really, I can understand what you have written before about the retributive consequences that can come down on the heads of people caught in these kinds of situations.
And how devastating that can be. That it’s often just not worth it.
But if anything, this whole clusterfuck (there I did it) has shown us just how much the USFS holds these employees and their families in contempt, and isn’t going to do a thing to uncomfortably protect the lives and well-being of their employees, their families, their friends and their loved ones.
This whole thing just shouts, from the USFS to their employees/families “Fuck You.”
And I’m including in my definition of USFS “employees” the Granite Mountain Hotshots, all legalities be damned.
They were Federal Interagency Hotshots, a Federal National Resource.
The only difference was who would have been paying their salary that day.
And even if there was an argument, and even if Eric and Granite Mountain made a fatal mistake, I still stand by my earlier assessment that if this fire had been properly analyzed and resourced by AZF, and if it, therefore, had been properly strategized and tactics-ized,
… instead of the debacle it was, threatening all kinds of lives…
…Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there all day to eventually hang themselves, without anybody (but maybe Gary Cordes–and what good did THAT do?) even knowing where they were or what they were doing.
These guys are going to be in court anyway, if the families don’t settle, and it seems that they’re determined not to settle.
Is it possible also that there’s now another gag order of some kind on them as the lawsuits are being developed?
Also noted there is no reason for breaks in videos 263, 264 and 265 They should be continuous
as the video is capturing the hurried movement of equipment out of the fire. Each break has a different start than the stop pictures this was just before GM call for deployment.
Again why would the operator stop and start here as it should have been continuous????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 13, 2014 at 1:45 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> why would the operator stop and start here as it
>> should have been continuous????
Exactly. There is no ‘logical’ reason why he would have even been bothering to ‘stop and restart’ the camera during those hectic moments… especially since all the other footage proves that Hulburd’s normal habit was to simply ‘leave the camera running’ most of the time.
In the videos… following the deployment… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell asks Hulburd when they heard the actual MAYDAY traffic. Hulburd wasn’t sure of the exact minute count since then but he then told Yowell “I recorded ALL of it”.
He then mentions that he ‘turned it off for maybe 2 or 3 minutes’ sometime AFTER the deployment sequence. That could have been the ‘break’ between when he set his Helmet Camera on the top of his truck right after the MAYDAY traffic… and then turned it on again 2-3 minutes later as he then was following Yowell west ( on foot ) on Shrine Road.
At no time does Hulburd SAY he ‘wasn’t sure I got it all’ or that he was ‘stopping and starting’ his camera prior to ( or during ) the MAYDAY calls.
He says the opposite. He SAYS “I recorded ALL of that”.
There also was absolutely no reason for him to turn his Camera OFF just at the same moment they were all saying HELLO to Frisby and Brown as they drove up from the Youth Camp in their Polaris Ranger… yet AZFS would seem to want us to believe that’s what he did instead of then going on to capture that 2 minute ‘intel report’ from Frisby and Brown that we know took place right then.
Right after Frisby and Brown pull up… and they say hello… and
Captain Trueheart Brown says
“Yea… we were back there tryin’ to stop idiots from burnin’ themselves up’…
…the video abruptly ENDS.
It doesn’t even show the little ‘jiggle’ that you would normally see when someone actually does reach up or over to turn off a ‘Helmet Cam’.
The video just CUTS OFF there… as if done with a piece of software.
And maybe the only reason he put the camera on the roof and turned it off for two or three minutes was to change the battery or the card..
Bingo.
He would have probably been running on the initial batteries all the way from the time he first arrived and ( like any good videophile would do ) immediately started recording. ( Todd Abel’s radio traffic from Ranger 58 during his second recon mission ).
Later on… he knew he had just captured ALL of the MAYDAY traffic, didn’t even bother to turn it off while he moved his truck… and right after they moved the trucks to that slightly safer spot… he knew a LOT more was about to come down in the next minutes/hours and he better have fresh batteries.
I have always thought he was just pausing at that moment and putting his helmet on top of his truck in order to fulfill KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s verbal request that they better get another handheld radio fired up so they wouldn’t miss any traffic…
…but now I would believe he was ALSO taking that moment to put a fresh set of batteries in his Helmet Camera there on the top of the truck.
Exactly.
If I was “the operator” in that kind of situation, there is no way I would bother with starting and stopping the camera, all things considered. There would be NO REASON to.
Capturing all that’s going on without hassling with buttons and stuff is the reason for using a headcam.
Which, therefore, means the file naming is mostly irrelevant.
Those file names are not the names of the original files, but they’re the names of the pieces of video someone at USFS chopped out of the original files.
Are we all starting to get that WTF moment????????????????
Actually, I’m more LOLOLOLing than WTF-ing right now.
WTK said the reason they do this kind of throwing stuff out there in a big hurry is to “get in front of the story.”
The problem with doing that is that, if you’re not careful, it can turn around and bite you in the butt.
They’re definitely assuming everybody is just getting the story from the MSM.
They’re not factoring in the possibility that there are just enough folks paying attention to be able to out-think them.
I was wandering around some of the relevant Facebook pages this morning.
One of the moms said something along the lines of, “I dissect every video they put out there.”
So Bob, a question.
In your experience, has anything like this, with a federal agency obstructing justice (including, as we are seeing here, something that looks like evidence tampering==which is a felony) on something like a state legally authoritative investigation, ever kicked in something like an FBI investigation?
No
I am not even sure with this being a non Federal Fire that the FBI
would ever get involved OSHA would probably be the first step
State level if information was with held from them.
Again this was a state fire no Federal Employee hurt or a Fatality
so the only thing the FS is doing is protecting their Employees
who were there and were involved in any supervisory capacity or the Incident its self which could stretch to BR and Air Attack
That’s the only reason on gods green earth they are not releasing Written Statements and audio/video they have that was in the control of there employees.
So again I doubt that the FBI would even be involved.
Court records requests are a different story if the law suit continues both sides will get all the records and videos in original format. I guarantee you they have them or are getting them now……..With this little surprise being sprung on the Families Lawyer.
who keeps bringing this up?
the FACT is both Bob and myself and Sonny heard information and some reached the public and who knows on the rest but I do back up Bob Powers on this topic and who keeps bringing it up…
The ones who need to come out is the freaking RAW footage of these videos and so many more…Bob is a retired guy listening to others feedback just like us because our names are out there and that is it but if we were not getting the information or Bob Powers—it would be fed to someone…just how life works
Thanks Joy and Sonny People are Hearing us The Nay Sayers and the State and FS
are trying to cover it up as fast as they can I think they are to late now.
Marti and WTKTT
Questions from a dummy????????
How many minuets or hours dose a Head cam operate continuously?
Dose it show accurate date and time?
The breaks in the Head cam video would they show start and stop times?
If the head cam ran continuously with out being turned off and on why the breaks in the 17 videos?
Another gut check— was the video edited by the FS some time ago to the 43 min. sections and that is what they released when requested. Along with additional Redactions
When in fact there is a continues video of say 1 or 2 hours.
It is hard to believe the person knowingly would have turned the video off and on in segments especially with all the action and audio going on. Note the ride up the mountain in the ATV
If he was turning off and on why not off during that segment?
I contend there are segments edited out of the Video and that is why we have 18 seperiate videos
With out time stamps we are left guessing what is between each segment.
Dose this camera stamp date and time as most do? Was that intentionally removed?
The FS is giving every one a piece of the whole from what I see………………
Mr. Powers… I am still looking at the material… and even just now John Dougherty has posted a new article on IM’s home page saying USFS has finally actually responded to HIS original FOIA request.
This story is still obviously a ‘moving target’… but with regards to part of your question(s)…
Aaron Hulburd himself says to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, in one of the new videos, that he had been recording (quote) “ALL of it”… but then he is also heard saying…”but I turned it off for 2or 3 minutes”.
That means there SHOULD be multiple files that begin with the M2U filename prefix. How many is still the question.
More later
Yes I remember that..
Bob~
It’s going to require metadata to go any further forward than where we are at now. Having to look at the videos via youtube just doesn’t give us the kind of file/camera information we need in order to begin to even know what kind of camera(s) is(are) being used and what their capabilities are.
And I’m seriously not very familiar with headcams and gopros and such. I don’t even have a smartphone, I AM in that camp of people who have ancient “candybar” phones.
I agree with what WTKTT wrote a bit down below in his response to my long rambling conjecturing that all we can do now is get clearer about exactly what we DO have now.
But I think we’ve done a pretty good job of mapping out our questions and cognitive dissonances and further thoughts.
It’s going to depend on what we see when we look at the files John has obtained. HOPEFULLY they contain some kind of metadata tracking back to the cameras used and the timestamps.
I fear they are the same as what was released by the State………..
If they are ( identical to the dog and pony show that appeared on Arizona Forestry’s webiste last Saturday )… then they cannot be considered a VALID fulfillment of a legal FOIA request.
They would NOT be ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the material that originally entered ( and remains in ) their possession.
You can ‘redact’ electronic media… but still leave the original metadata in the file. No problem.
Until we can see the original metadata in the files… then they are NOT actually ‘original copies’ of the material.
And I have a question back.
What is the source of the idea that Aaron’s headcam video sequence was 43 minutes long?
In Johns letter he received the FS states that (43 Min. of Video)
That was why all my other Questions.
I think we are being hand fed and they have never said why the breaks or 18 seperiate pieces of Video or 21.
They left a lot out of the explanations
like did they only copy excerpts from the Full Video to u-tube?
Again to me the Fish smell is very strong??????
They only explained what they did to what they sent not what was there before
The final 43 they are releasing. Wording requests can be used to manipulate what they will send.. I guess I have no trust any more in what we are being fed,
OK. Thanks, that helps.
I was wondering if the “43 minutes” meant what “somebody” “knew” was the total in Aaron’s original collection or the total that was being published.
So he really could have shot a whole lot more video. Quite a bit of a lot.
That’s what keeps the Question brain on WTF mode.
So yep.
Just had lunch with Terra. Told her
“I will try to not keep talking about this but this thing is so bad we seriously can’t find the right adjectives for it but long strings of four letter words. Truly.”
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 13, 2014 at 11:16 am
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> What is the source of the idea that Aaron’s headcam video
>> sequence was 43 minutes long?
The first ‘heads up’ on this particular discussion forum about there being ‘new’ Hulburd footage that was going to be between 42 and 43 minutes long came from ‘Robert The Second’ ( RTS ) on October 11.
That was also when ‘ADOSH’ entered the picture for this story because RTS said that his sources were contacted by ADOSH about all this ( and not by AZF or USFS ). That is still probably true… as RTS first reported.
It was on this ‘Chapter 9’ version of this ongoing discussion and here is RTS’s original message reprinted from down below…
————————————————————————–
On October 11, 2014 at 8:28 pm, Robert the Second said…
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
————————————————————–
Right after RTS posted that ‘heads up’… Bob Powers replied and
basically confirmed that he had been hearing the same thing… and
the same ’43 minutes’ information…
————————————————————–
On October 13, 2014 at 7:51 am, Bob Powers said…
My understanding it is the full 43 min. head cam recording no cut no touch up what was recorded at the time that was not released with the first portion.
I have heard this is the Raw footage. Until we can see and hear it none of us should put a final stamp of approval on it as factual evidence.
The real fact is that it dose exist.
———————————————————–
The footage that was released Saturday is NOT ‘raw footage’ in any way.
It can’t even be considered ‘original copies’ of the material since all
the original EXIF metadata has been removed.
There is also nothing in the Saturday release that I would say could be construed as ‘very damaging to Eric Marsh’.
It tells us that AZF and USFS have, in fact, been ‘hiding’ important evidence from both the families of the men that died AND from the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident… and it tells us that not only did a high level fire commander that day ( Gary Cordes ) knew exactly what they were doing and where they were going to arrive… and even implemented his own ‘plan’ to help them get out that way…
…but the footage released Saturday doesn’t really tell us anything more than we already knew about Eric Marsh’s decisions than we already know.
If the footage that RTS was reporting HE heard about had that kind of evidence in it… and his sources were saying so… then it looks like whatever THEY were seeing in the new Hulburd footage has been REMOVED from what actually went public on Saturday.
Just a wild thought here…
I am not even remotely asking RTS to ‘name his sources’… but let’s just say that the ‘two firefighters’ he mentions happen to be any combination of ‘The Prescott three’ ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
These guys have always been ‘thick as thieves’ ( they all work toegther on the Prescott National Forest ).
It is HIGHLY likely that all three of these men had been able to see ALL of what Aaron Hulburd shot with his camera(s) that day.
Totally unredacted… raw footage.
So perhaps they were reporting to RTS that if what THEY knew was in that footage was going to ‘go public’… that it would, in fact, be ‘very damaging to Marsh’ ( Such as… perhaps capturing the alleged argument with Steed ).
Maybe the two FFs that RTS was hearing from simply did not know that the USFS was going to TAKE OUT those very parts of the videos that they knew were in the material and would be ‘very damaging to Marsh’ if it was all released.
Maybe these two FFs that RTS heard from are just as astonished right now as anyone else about what is now MISSING from Hulburd’s published footage.
WTKTT,
FYI to your point above, the two WFF I referred to on October 11th were NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’) that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet seen these latest video releases. When I told him NONE of them had any radio transmissions from Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY had Marsh radio transmissions in them. No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
None of this surprises me. The FS is well known (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable. And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports” most times.
Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …” NOT October 8th
Reply to Robert the Second’s post on
November 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The two WFF I referred to on October 11th were
>> NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Thank you! It really was just a ‘wild guess’.
I still think it is more than likely, however, that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are all fully aware of EVERYTHING that Aaron filmed that day. They are all ‘thick as thieves’ there at PNF and more than likely they all SAW his footage before he even gave it to whoever it was he actually gave it to in the first place following the tragedy.
Actually.. he obviously did NOT give his material directly to Arizona Forestry or the newly formed SAIT… but went through his own PNF / USFS work channels.
We still simply just don’t know the WHO ( Sic: NAMES ) or what the ‘chain of possesion’ was on his ‘evidence’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the
>> one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’)
>> that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet
>> seen these latest video releases. When I told him
>> NONE of them had any radio transmissions from
>> Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the
>> video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY
>> had Marsh radio transmissions in them.
Well… technically… since the USFS chose to basically re-release that original footage from December in THIS new ‘evidence dump’ as well… it is, in fact, true that THESE new videos DO have ‘Marsh in them’… but it’s just the same “Our escape route has been cut off” and “We are burning out around ourselves” and “I’ll give you a call when we are under the shelters” traffic from Marsh that was first heard back in December.
I wouldn’t call THOSE transmissions ‘damaging to Marsh’.
So just to be clear… we are talking about your source referring to some OTHER heretofore ‘unheard’ transmissions… correct?
THOSE ( if they exist ) are definitely NOT included in this latest ‘evidence dump’. Other than the same December “We are deploying” traffic… there really aren’t any identifiable transmissions from Marsh in THIS latest release.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
I still believe the evidence points to there being some kind of ’emergency’ transmissions on BOTH of these channels that day.
We can HEAR the ones that went out over A/G in the Hulburd videos… but we still haven’t heard the one ( or more? ) that might have preceded those calls but went over TAC.
Even Rance Marquez, in his ADOSH interview, is recalling hearing SOME kind of ’emergency’ talk over the radio BEFORE he testifies to hearing that first “We are in front of the flaming front’ MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed over the A/G channel.
Marquez even goes so far as to say he believes it was something about someone trying to do some ‘sound location’ between Marsh and the Helicopters BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> None of this surprises me. The FS is well known
>> (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire
>> investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and
>> then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s
>> maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable.
>> And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports”
>> most times.
In case you haven’t noticed… I ( me, personally ) don’t give a rat’s ass what either Arizona Forestry or their parent company ( US Forestry Service ) has EVER done ‘in the PAST.
I want them to ‘come clean’ on THIS incident.
As soon as possible.
This is a seminal moment for them( no matter how they have handled things in the past ) and I ( and a whole lot of other people ) want to see them all put on their big-boy shorts and do the RIGHT thing this time.
It’s not hard.
Just tell the TRUTH.
For men who pride themselves on ‘duty, honor, courage, character’ and all that jazz… I haven’t seen much of ANY of that from them so far. All I see ( so far ) is a bunch of guys trying to protect their own jobs and cover their own asses. Not much to ‘respect’ there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …”
>> NOT October 8th
Copy that.
One more thing…
Obviously I am NOT going to ask you to query your sources about anything because I know you, yourself, are deciding how and when to participate in the PUBLIC part of this ongoing fiasco…
…but can you at least ‘throw us a bone’ and give us even a HINT as to what the NATURE of the information would be that your source is saying would be ‘damaging to Eric Marsh’?
Is your source trying to say that there WAS some kind of argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( just as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said multiple witnesses have alleged )… and that Marsh was beating Steed over the head with all kinds of reasons to make the risky move until Steed finally just ‘gave in’…. or something?
One thing that just jumped into my mind.
I’ve taken WAY more videos classes than I’ve taken videos.
We’re ALWAYS taught to take MORE video than you may think you may need. It’s far easier and less time-consuming to trim stuff out than have less than you need in order to “tell” your story.
Just quickly looked at a gopro on Amazon (I have to get ready to for lunch with my daughter…..)
It’s not the newest, so it would be comparable to what Aaron might have been using
Rechargeable lithium battery lasts for 2.5 hours of continuous recordeing
On a 32 GB card it will record 8+ hours of recording
Typical avg numbers:
1080p – 4 hours
960p – 5 hours
720p – 4 hours
“GoPro HD Helmet Hero”
http://www.amazon.com/GoPro-CHDHH-001-HD-Helmet-Hero/dp/B002VA56I8
Second try for this post.
So it looks like video length is only limited by battery power and/or card size.
Not if you carry spare batteries and cards.
Something tells me Aaron Hulburd ( a true-blue videophile ) had BOTH.
LOL! I was kind of thinking you might say something like that.
If I had that camera, I’d carry plenty of batteries and plenty of memory card space. No problem!
I do that with my mere Rebel.
Always be prepared!
It is also perfectly obvious from watching the new footage that HAS been released that Aaron Hulburd’s default ( and habitual ) behavior was to simply just ‘leave the camera running’.
If this guy was at all concerned with battery life when using the thing… there are PLENTY of places in all these video clips where he could have turned it off to save some battery.
He didn’t He wasn’t worrying about that.
THAT is what makes what some of these ‘cuts’ between some of these videos so hard to understand.
The HABIT we are seeing ( in the footage as a whole ) is someone who just leaves it running once it is on and doesn’t really worry about it.
As you yourself said… when you think you are capturing something important… any true ‘videophile’ knows it’s better to capture ALL of it and then just do ‘editing’ later rather than ‘miss’ something while you were filming.
I think Hulburd knew that… and that’s why I’m having a hard time believing that he was starting/stopping his camera so much like USFS and Arizona Forestry would seem to be trying to make us believe.
Regarding the various kinds of cameras in the realm of what Aaron was probably using:
From March 2013 The Independent
“The 10 Best Action Cameras”
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/the-10-best-action-cameras-8542989.html
So we have at a minimum 2 to 2 1/2 hrs. of Battery time/ Video with out changing the Battery out and 8 hrs. possible Video with new batteries .
Is that not interesting. Why turn it off except to change Batteries or your done.
With all that was happening why would any one turn the camera on and off
More WTF moments As an investigator the more of WTF’s the more you need to investigate……………
The Saturday release proves that Aaron Hulburd was a ‘true-blue’ videophile. He loved that state-of-the-art Helmet Camera ( It probably was a really good GoPro ) and I would bet a sawbuck he always carried spare batteries and spare memory cards.
He didn’t even turn if off when the wild ride forced him to put it down so that it looks like it was just shooting the sky!
I bet he shot miles with that camera. I for sure would have. That’s exactly what they’re for.
See my other post above. Yes. The video footage as a whole is showing us someone who was NOT trying to ‘save battery’ all the time. His obviousyl default habit was to just turn it on and LEAVE it on.
That is why I’m having such a hard time believing what Arizona Forestry and the USFS seem to be trying to make us believe here.
That he would have been ‘stopping’ and ‘restarting’ the camera so much during a very critical time.
Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out. Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results in a wider view and some distortion around the edges. So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Methods says
Reply to Method’s post on November 13, 2014 at 4:21 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of
>> filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the
>> capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s
>> videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out.
>> Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results
>> in a wider view and some distortion around the edges.
>> So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Thank you, Method.
Obviously we are struggling to figure something out here that we really shouldn’t have to. The actual name of the DEVICE that took these videos SHOULD still be retained in the EXIF metadata that is always embedded in the actual videos…
…but it is NOT.
The EXIF data has been REMOVED from these videos, which means they are in no way ‘original copies’ of the material that USFS has in their possession.
Actually… it is perfectly obvious now that even though that video of the final MAYDAY calls that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called ‘The Helmet Camera Video’… these new clips indicate that Aaron Hulburd probably wasn’t using an official ‘Helmet Camera’ at all.
Yes… there are obviously times when the device appears to be attached to his Helmet… such as in the original December footage with the MAYDAY calls captured…
…but in some of these new video clips it is obvious it was NOT attached to his Helmet at all while he was filming.
In video M2U00266R… it is obviously just sort of clipped to his shirt pocket… more like the ‘Body Cams’ that Police Officers use now.
When Aaron Hulburd is standing right in front of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… the camera is obviously at ‘pocket level’ and all we see is Yowell’s shirt buttons.
So it was more likely just a camera that was able to CLIP to things, like a Helmet bracket or a shirt pocket.
Thanks for your comment and your interest in this ongoing discussion.
John—
Have you asked why the State Or the FS did not release a document explaining the 21 videos the actual time frames where they were taken and how much was removed from each file?
It seems strange that was not attached to this release? That should be a normal process as we or I have seen in the past under FOIA. Should not all of these videos also have had an accurate date and time stamp? To just dump these out there as the Head Cam videos when some are not is strange again for People who deal with FOIA’s all the time?
Add on I for got to add I did read the letter you got To me it seems incomplete…
I was just about to ask if there really ever was any fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request… but I see that just now… there is a NEW article about that on IM’s home page.
Apparently… USFS has, just now, actually fulfilled that original am IM FOIA request.
Whether they complied fully and correctly ( according to law ) remains to be seen.
The new article on IM’s home page also seems to verify what was suspected. Apparently… Arizona Forestry never actually filed their own FOIA request for this material. It was simply ‘arranged’ that they would publish this material on their own AZF website BEFORE the US Forestry Service was going to bother to fulfill any of the FOIA requests.
In public relations / marketing / media circles, a move like that is officially known as ‘getting out ahead of the story’.
OK I just have to say this. After the past few days.
This fire. and the ones who perished in it, is trying to tell us something. Otherwise we who are here wouldn’t be here 16 and a half months later.
This fire is trying to tell us something, in spite of the white-washing of the SAIR, the obstructing via the USFS and AZF of the ADOSH investigation, and various other things, including this most recent release of videos which, given HOW they were released, has probably caused more CONFUSION than ENLIGHTENMENT.
It’s totally apparent to me and others that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain Hotshots somehow made a really fatal decision that day. All things considered.
Why they did that is still a mystery, although various people among us have various, and sometimes conflicting, ideas about that. I have my own ideas about that, but I am not certain in my own various ideas.
But here’s IMHO the deal.
If the Powers That Be (who we now have evidence that they don’t give a flying F**k about the well-being of their employees) wanted us to think that Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots just made all those fatal mistakes and marched to their deaths down into a doomed bowl of Manzanita simply because they mis-judged the rate of spread of the fire and the time they had to get to the Boulder Springs Ranch…..
WHY are they currently twisting themselves into pretzels in order to with-hold (and have been all along) what we are now realizing is a fairly significant collection of video information in order to protect the Arizona Department of Forestry, even as it harms (by gagging them) their own employees?
If only Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were at fault for their own demise, WHY would the USFS and AZF be going to such lengths to cover themselves, liability speaking????
This question is where I’m at right now.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> If only Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were at fault for their own
>> demise… WHY would the USFS and AZF be going to such lengths
>> to cover themselves, liability speaking????
Because they KNOW that isn’t the the real truth and/or the ‘simple explanation’?
And they have ALWAYS known that?
There were balls dropped ( and provable negligence ) all over the place here.
Pretty much all weekend.
There are millions and millions of dollars at stake.
To all who have been involved with this Investigation for so long———-
I received a call from a family member to day their first remarks were thanking me and all of you for all the information and steadfast dedication to finding the truth They are part of the Families in the Law suit.
They told me that they never were contacted and tried to find out 3 weeks ago about the Video.
If the Video was shown early it was only shown to those families not involved in the Law Suit.
They also said they were never contacted by the State and notified of the release and only saw the videos after they were released. Nor as stated did there Lawyer know any thing about there release.
Until I posted on the 18th and they started looking for the Video but had no luck till it was released.
Also they are not settling out of court as They first want the truth. Also compensation for the Fatherless children that has still not been forthcoming.
They do believe there was a viewing by some but have not been able to find out who.
So we should all be proud that some of the Family members thank and support our search for the truth. And I know we will continue to work hard to find it……..You guys are assume.
So we are back to who saw that Video when and where??????????????
My contacts grow maybe more info will follow.
The one who thinks I only state rumors should find something else to do. I am only the message carrier and a deeply concerned Retired WLFF———
Because I have used my real name people are finding me and I am receiving information to add to our investigation. But a lot of thanks goes to all of you…………..
Foul deeds will rise, though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.
William Shakespeare – Hamlet (1.2.256)
In other words…
Lies come and go… but the TRUTH is FOREVER.
If what was suspected actually turns out to be TRUE here… that ONLY the families who have not retained counsel were allowed to ‘preview’ the material before it was published…
…then the word DESPICABLE doesn’t even cut the cake.
It goes all the way to DISGUSTING.
Yeah, I’ve been lately finding myself searching my vocabulary for the appropriate adjectives so I can describe this in polite company without four-letter words or sounding un-realistically hyperbolic.
I just can’t……………..
Thank you so much, Bob, for posting this.
I have to admit, to be honest, that, although I, at first slipped into this for, relatively speaking, the families (especially the family of the firefighter-photographer Chris McKenzie, whose otherwise undocumented but exploited camera I saw sitting there in the middle of the Deployment Site; and then for Amanda Marsh, when I learned that her husband’s cellphone was being with-held from “evidence” for whatever reason), more and more I have found myself just plugging away at this for just basically, THE TRUTH.
There just has been SO MUCH with-holding of both basic and detailed information regarding what happened on this fire by authorities who had collected all this information. I just Shake My Head.
I remember having to look at all those memorial videos just to plant inside my head who these hotshots were and what they looked like so I could identify them in the photos and videos.
I cried my way through every one of them.
My alma mater was Prescott College, essentially the Grandmother of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. My friends were the original Grandmother crews.
I keep dogging at this for all these reasons based in the past and the past year and a half. And for the future. I live in the southwest, my home state (New Mexico) burns, my second-home state (Arizona) burns.
It just cuts me to the core that the agencies we have been led to trust to support the first responders to the inevitable and increasing wildfires burning here are so, apparently to us who have grabbed hold and not let go of this fire, unconcerned about the lives of those first responders and their families, friends, and loved ones.
Namaste.
Marti By the time I was 5 the Forest Service was my home The people that worked at the Ranger stations my family I was one of there kids by the time I was 14 I was sitting in on Crew training all those 18 to22 year old FF were like my brothers. When I went to work for the FS my crew mates and then my coworkers and then my crewman who worked for me and I trained were all my brothers.
The Forest service has totally changed We use to trust and depend on each other
No body higher up hid any thing of importance.
I have been abandoned by my family my home no longer is functioning.
That’s deep enough Ill stop there.
Beautifully said.
When I say home I mean at a start those small Ranger stations I lived on.
5 o 6 families with a barrack’s for seasonal’s.
Every thing we did we did with them. it was like a little small town in the woods no one else for miles.
Every thing you do off duty is with the same people you work with.
It is something not many are evolved in. It is unique to some organizations.
I would not have traded it for the world.
oh and before I forget—some topic on rumors and Bob Powers—
I heard the same information from the media fence event until last week.
However, I heard there is more video information than shown.
What else?
blanking but look forward to showing clarity to some areas but if there is a family member of the loved ones that wants to speak off the record—we always are here for you and some of you already know we do not speak what you tell us.
I posted on the other area because it would not post here under Arizona Forestry but I got all my answers from locals there—
very short on pc time right now. Today is the annual Yarnell town meeting at 5:30 with folks like Simmons, Andy Tobin and Karen Fann and such so I have lots to do before that.
I just want to share a homeowner is willing to share fire, fire equipment, firefighter photos IF I keep it anonymous who person is…YOU BET!
I now understand after I did my Jehova witness method (door to door) this week—getting more information right there in Peeples and the Shrine area as well from folks on mountain top views—
Soon I will have for you photos that may help from 6-30-13 from camera Olympus fe-5010 12 megapixel and the person knows if I vanish before than to get the information to you all and Dr. Ted Putnam as well.
Also, the information has PROPER time stamp so this is a bonus.
Okay, I am sorry everyone is having a juggle this week on new information and when I get time I can resource and source some clarity but I have to go for now.
I am just excited the new news came out because it helps locals come forward.
Also in the one video that homeowner with white truck I am working with cold case to identify if that is our missing man—suicide hiker— who after the fire went missing…the neighboring folks stated they saw fire folks on his property as well in the Shrine area when he was still around so it is interesting if it was Mark Danielson and will have to investigate as to why they had fire meetings on his property he was staying. I will get into this more later on when I have the time.
WTKTT and Marti
I guess I will add to the Conspiracy.
What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh. It seems very interesting there are two separate recordings here if the State knew when the recordings started then there had to be something to cover that start. Just throwing it out there.
Dewanna from Prescott Yavapai College Evacuation Shelter- PLEASE COME FORWARD with your account EVEN if you post here with first name only and explain what you saw at the Prescott Library from government folks with maps out and the talk of what fires and such…please!
Also share about the map you showed us online with the embossed stamp on it from a couple weeks before the fire; please!
Due to privacy laws the doctor that was in the RED CROSS shelter Dr. Barbara Buchanan cannot shed light legally there but yes this lady Dewanna did state information immediately that began our journey right there of questioning what just happened…
I am VERY THANKFUL for recent locals accounts and for doing all you all are about to do—
RIGHT ON!
I mean it. THANK YOU! It has been a long journey of HOPE as I have shared on here hoping you read the site but now I see some of you never did and this means a lot to me and the loved ones and so many…I know it does. We have learned all photos are important in some way.
Sonny is typing on here and have no clue what is on his mind because we have not talked too much just been doing defensible space as well as build horno…
SO I do have time to reply since this pc seems to post my posts-
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 12, 2014 at 10:52 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> We have learned all photos are important in some way.
Yes. They are.
We have most CERTAINLY learned that during this ongoing discussion.
Even what might appear to be the simplest and most insignificant pieces of evidence can suddenly turn out to be one more ‘swing of the axe’ as far as getting to the real TRUTH goes.
Thanks once more for everything you do ( and say ), Joy.
Even YOUR photographs ( ALL of them ) have been absolutely invaluable since day ONE.
Somehow, someway… you were in the right place at the right time… and even though the circumstances were not of your own choosing… you have always been willing to accept that… and to share.
That’s REAL courage.
I think that’s an excellent question, Bob.
I’ll wait for WTK to weight in on it, since he knows way more about video editing than I do.
Reply to Bob Powers posot on November 12, 2014 at 10:07 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Marti
>> I guess I will add to the Conspiracy.
>> What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual
>> Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh. It seems
>> very interesting there are two separate recordings here if the State
>> knew when the recordings started then there had to be something
>> to cover that start. Just throwing it out there.
Mr. Powers… maybe I’ve had TOO much coffee today… or something… but I am not sure I am fully ‘parsing’ what you are suggesting.
Let me just take it line by line ( but not in the same order typed above ).
Tell me if I am understanding you ( or NOT ).
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> It seems very interesting there are two separate recordings here.
If, by ‘two separate recordings’, you mean the fact that the first THREE videos of the apparent burnout on Model Creek Road were NOT taken by Aaron Hulburd or his Helmet Camera… but then the remaining 18 ‘clips’ with the ‘M2U’ prefix WERE from Hulburd’s Helmet Camera… then YES… it is VERY interesting… and it begs for an explanation.
I still think that IAOF ( If And Only If ) the US Forestry Service is actually trying to suggest this is a FULL and COMPLETE response to the original InvestgativeMEDIA FOIA request that was directed specifically to their ‘child company’ known as “The Prescott National Forest”… then it would appear that the first THREE videos were somehow taken by someone OTHER than Aaron Hulburd who just happens to be employed by ‘The Prescott National Forest’.
So… if they had bothered to supply any documentation of this (supposed) FOIA response material… they would be claiming this is ALL the video they have from anyone who was in Yarnell that day who also happens to work for “Prescott National Forest”.
I am NOT saying that is the ‘explanation’.
I am just saying that would be my ‘guess’ about the ‘two separate recording sources’.
If I am right… then WHO is this ‘other’ PNF Employee who was shooting those first 3 video clips in Yarnell that day? We still need to KNOW.
If I am NOT right… then what the hell are those 3 video clips doing in the release?
The explanation as to why they are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds is secondary to knowing WHO really took these videos… and WHY they are only suddenly now appearing.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>
>> What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual
>> Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh.
Well… first off… we do NOT know ( for sure and certain ) if they ever WERE taken by any kind of ‘cellphone’. Could have been a regular movie-capable digitial camera… OR a Helmet Camera. I actually doubt these would be videos taken with the Helmet Camera that calvin found on the head of that Engine driver we see arriving up on Model Creek Road in the mysterious ‘Engine 151’ photo set. That Helmet Camera looked like a VERY modern Go-Pro camera and I doubt it would have been set to take movies in the 176×144 3GP video format… but it could have been. We KNOW Engine 151 was ‘up there’ on Model Creek Road and assisting with the burnouts… and we KNOW that driver was wearing a Go-Pro Helmet Camera ( thanks to calvin’s sharp eyes ).
Secondly… ( and maybe this is where I’m confused )… I’m not sure what you mean by “there to cover the full and actual video”.
Do you mean you think its possible that they thought people already KNEW there were supposed to be 43 minutes of video released… but in order to bring the total minutes of video up to the 43 minute mark they felt they need to just throw this crap in there ( which was NOT taken by Hulburd ) in order to just cover the huge amount of material they actually WERE ‘cutting’ out of Hulburd’s original footage?
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> If the State knew when the recordings started then there had to be
>> something to cover that start.
Again… I take this to mean you are suggesting that these 3 other vidoes were just ‘tagged’ onto the start of the video release package just to bring the ‘total minutes’ up to the expected 43 minute mark?
I actually doubt it.
They could not possibly have been THAT stupid or thought that was going to ‘work’.
( Or could they? )
You Got what I was asking.
With all the different videos out there these could have fit right in with out missing a beet. We can all see they are separate numbers from the other 18 why not explain the difference?????
Ah… okay… I totally follow you now.
As I reach over and put my new custom-made Internet Conspiracy Theorist Hat ( limited signed edition ) on, then… here is another way of saying what you are saying.
1. Somehow, US Forestry learned that someone KNEW exactly how MANY separate M2Uxxxxx video clips were originally retrieved from Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera. That ‘total number of clips’ was 21… so USFS also KNEW that whoever was after the material would be EXPECTING there to be a total of 21 clips.
2. Upon reviewing ALL 21 of Hulburd’s M2Uxxxxx named clips… they realized there was no way in hell ( FOIA request be damned ) they were going to be release ANY of the first three of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam clips with filenames…
M2U00258
M2U00259
M2U00260
3. They also somehow KNEW that not only did whoever was requesting the material already know there SHOULD be 21 separate clips returned… but that they should ALL add up to 43 minutes.
4. So they knew ( in order to make this look good ) they had to deliver 21 separate little video clips that all totaled about 43 minutes.
5. Some numbskull at USF then thought he had ‘an idea’.
Why not just substitute some harmless other ‘gargbage’ video into the release package to replace the actual first THREE Hulburd clips… but make it look like something that Aaron Hulburd MIGHT have been filming with his Helmet Camera. Since everyone knows Hulburd’s real job is a ‘Fuels Specialist’ for Prescott National Forest… let’s just use some video of the burnout on Model Creek Road ( that we have ALSO been withholding from ADOSH and no one has ever seen before ) and people would believe that is something Aaron Hulburd MIGHT have been filming that day.
6. So they added up the total length of the first three ‘original’ Hulburd clips and discovered they total exactly 89.4 seconds ( 29.8 times 3 ).
They selected the footage they were going to substitute for the first 3 original Hulburd clips… and ( since they knew they needed 3 separate clips to make up for the three they were replacing ) someone just used a video editor to create the total 89.4 seconds needed ( 29.8 times 3 ).
7. They then swapped these three 29.8 second ‘cut’ clips out for the original 3 Hulburd video clips… and VOILA!… they are back to 21 total clips that total about 43 seconds. Mission accomplished.
Well… almost.
Maybe the same numbskull who thought this up then actually FORGOT to rename the 3 video clips he had edited down to 29.8 seconds back to the original Hulburd filenames of M2U00258, M2U00258 and M2U00260.
If he had… that would have completed the ‘cleverness’.
We would now be looking at those first 3 video clips and scratching our heads about how Hulburd got up onto Model Creek Road ( and what TIME since that would have been lost during the file renaming ).
So is THAT really the complete ‘possible’ scenario you, yourself, are imagining here?
I won’t say it happened…
…but since I trust BOTH Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service about as far as I could get a dump-truck through a wood-chipper…
…I won’t say it didn’t, either.
Forgot to make it clear up above.
The FIRST video with a filename prefix of ‘M2U’ that appears amongst these 21 ( supposedly sequential ) videos just released is…
M2U00261
It is actually the FOURTH ( sequential ) video in the release.
We still do NOT know if that really was the first M2U00xxx video that Aaron Hulburd took that day.
There MIGHT have actually been ( at least ) 3 other valid Hulburd videos preceding it.
THEY would have ( supposedly ) been named…
M2U00258
M2U00259
M2U00260
If the numbering scheme used by the device really is ‘digit by digit’… then it’s possible there are as many as 260 OTHER videos sitting on Hulburd’s Helmet-Camera that we still haven’t seen.
Even if the camera’s internal sequential numbering system defaults to a staring number of ‘200’ for filenames… that still means there could be as many as 60 ( SIXTY ) other videos on Hulburd’s camera with filenames starting at M2U00200 through M2U00260.
Catch my drift?
Also… correction for above…
In one place I typed ’43 seconds’ instead of ’43 minutes’.
In order for the ‘scheme’ above to work… they would have been making sure the TOTAL amount of video released came close to 43 MINUTES ( not seconds ) in order to make all this ‘look good’.
21 clips… all totaling right about 43 minutes.
That would have been the ‘goal’ for the ‘release package’ if US Forestry somehow KNEW that’s what the requestor was already expecting and anything less than those numbers was going to look ‘suspicious’.
Absolutely as an investigator that’s where you start that’s where you need info to determine if you theory has any validity or what the real answers are if they don’t fit your theory.
When something don’t fit you gotta ask more questions some of this ain’t fitting.
May mean something may mean nothing???????????
OK. Now I’ll weigh in. I have, though, more questions than answers. I’m going to be thinking out loud here.
I think WTKTT understood you, Bob, better than I did. I kind of went off on a different track than WTK did. It may not be totally irrelevant, though.
What WTK wrote makes a lot of sense to me, in general.
One question I have, though, is how are you, WTK, so sure one of the Prescott Three didn’t take those first three videos–or the longer video(s) they seem to have been cut out of?
Their vehicles were included in the Blues Brothers video at 3:15 parked near the ICP. They didn’t cross the Air2Air Study Cam until well after 4 PM. Couldn’t they have driven over to the Model Creek Burnout? That was kind of the “big thing” that was going on around 3:30 when those three video clips were taken (assuming they were file-named correctly). And I do think that’s the Model Creek Road burnout.
Even as I ask that question, I agree that, all other things considered, those clips were most likely taken by someone working on one of the crews doing the burnout. But I don’t think we can be certain about that without having a solid reason to be certain about that.
Which is related to the first thought I had when I read Bob’s question.
As I interpreted his question in my own mind, I started thinking those three clips could be “the beginning” (that’s how I interpreted Bob’s “beginning”) clips of the video(s) that include the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever. That’s because I am/was feeling confused between the Headcam Video collection, and the video/collection that seems to be still out there somewhere in the ozone that includes that Conversation/Whatever. Since these clips are around 3:30, the timing could make some sense.
Of course, now that I’m thinking further about that, that would have to assume that whoever took that video was privy to the GM intracrew channel.
So that kind of may blow that line of thinking. Or it kind of may not.
Unless it was one of the Prescott Three, and they were accessing that channel. Or it was someone like Willis, Cory Moser, or…….
Or they could just be “padding.” That just never happened to have been released in the FOIA releases. Along with all the other large amounts of videos and photos that were released that were relatively benign. Which kind of sort of starts to beg a question.
[So, OK, I start envisioning someone who is sorting thru all those vast amounts of photos and videos thinking, hmmmmm we may need some padding so I’ll pull out this video for that……]
So, anyway, that was my thinking then.
Here’s my problem with what you are saying, WTKTT.
The first of the M2U clips, M2U00261, was taken, from the ICP, while Todd Abel was flying his second recon and Darrell Willis’ crew was preparing to burn out before they abandoned the Double A Bar Ranch. The radio convo you hear is between them.
According to Willis’ log, they did that around 2:30 PM (regardless of what our counselor insists as to how nobody ever keeps close enough track of time on a fire to keep accurate logs–which I disputed, and I basically trust his log times, even though some of his other actions/words have totally disgusted me on occation).
The next video in the sequence is taken MUCH later (like about TWO HOURS), on Shrine Road, just (relatively speaking) before the deployment, as everybody is evacuating that area.
So, for one thing, that would mean that any videos the helmetcam took before M2U00261 would be of things happening BEFORE about 2:30. Which, therefore, would not include the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever.
AND that would mean (unless the video filenames have been changed…..ahem…..) there would be no video taken by the helmetcam between about 2:30 and the evacuation from Shrine Road.
So that’s where my thinking is different than yours, WTK, at this point.
So that’s where I ask again, is there any kind of relationship between the helmetcam videos and the Granite Mountain Convo/Whatever video(s)?
And, now that I’m rethinking what I just wrote and what you two wrote, I’m thinking about THIS:
WTKTT: “they realized there was no way in hell ( FOIA request be damned ) they were going to be release ANY of the first three of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam clips with filenames…”
What would those earlier (if they even exist) videos taken before 2:30-ish have even included that would have been so “dangerous” to the Powers That Be? I just don’t think there’s a “there” there.
HOWEVER I’m also thinking about this:
Bob Powers: “What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh.”
In my head I was translating this to mean the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever and possibly associated stuff. Now I’m not sure exactly what you were referencing here. But I think it’s the obvious elephant in the room.
Given what I’ve written above, that any Aaron Headcam video clips taken before M2U00261 would be way too early to contain anything related to that Convo/Whatever/Associated stuff, I think what you are saying here would be incorrect.
HOWEVER, on the OTHER hand, this really (all things considered) HUGE time gap (all things considered) in video files between M2U00262 and M2U263 has been a REALLY big red flag for me. That’s the time-space in which any overheard significant radio communications of the kind WE are considering would have been located.
I.e. If I were the Powers That Be and I wanted to “cover” any section of these videos because they contained something I didn’t want anyone to see/hear, THAT’S what I would want to replace with “something.”
But to do that THIS WAY, would require changing the M2U file names.
I confess, I own no tin hat. I’m just increasingly passionately SERIOUSLY skeptical regarding anything the USFS has done or said regarding this fire..
If somebody can land a spacecraft on a comet that’s moving 40K miles per hour, can someone please actually INVESTIGATE this fire???????
I only rise the question to find info and or answers.
You provided some but would every one know what you said out side this group as to the time these 3 videos were taken?
why are these 3 videos so far from the time of the headcam video? Again were they fillers to cover what is missing?
We have put to gather a lot of time lines and information no one else is doing at least that I have seen. Could the FS just think that the time frame of the first 3 not be noticed by a layman who had no idea of the time of the Video on the shrine rd..
There is no time frame shown on any of the videos, we are finding our own from research and a year of putting the pieces together.
Again my questions are investigative and not any kind of proven fact we have questions.
Remember John can also work to get better answers than we have that is part of why we are here.
You added a lot of questions your self, but dose what I said make any since?
Brief reply while I’m eating my hard-earned pizza.
Of course nobody outside our group would know anything about these timelines that we have been carefully constructing over the past almost year.
Nobody outside our group even seems to know who took the infamous “Last Moments” headcam video.
Much less that that person deserves a gold medal for risking his life to attempt to save the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The USFS and AZF are totally counting on that.
PS
I’m still willing to seriously entertain the possibility that these first three 3:30-ish PM videos might, in fact, be “the beginning” of the video(s) that include(s) the Options Conversation/Whatever/Related radio transmissions.
Because when I wrote this:
“[So, OK, I start envisioning someone who is sorting thru all those vast amounts of photos and videos thinking, hmmmmm we may need some padding so I’ll pull out this video for that……]”
it was totally snark.
In my mind there has to be a reason they excluded this seemingly “benign” video footage of the seriously important Model Creek Road burnout operation from the FOIA release materials.
Of course, I could always be mistaken.
As WTKTT always adds:
“Your mileage may vary.”
And what you say makes total since/sense/science.
Which is also, Bob, why I wrote a ways downstream that I think this release was carefully designed more to confuse than to enlighten.
Bob, you wrote:
“why are these 3 videos so far from the time of the headcam video? Again were they fillers to cover what is missing?”
I want you to understand what I’m thinking/saying.
I have more than one response to your more than one question.
It’s complicated. This would be so much easier if we were talking in person right now.
The reason these three videos are so far in time from the next video in the series is that the next video in the series was actually taken an hour earlier. Which means they were “placed” in the series at the wrong spot, given that AZF says they are in chronological order. For them to say that is not true.
The reason these videos are so far in time from the Shrine Road etc videos is that they were taken an hour earlier from that series.
Which leaves that vastly important time in question, 3:30 to 4:30 (remember that famous communications gap), which includes the Options Conv/Whatever and all the bits we’ve encountered between 4:00 and the burnover missing.
What I’m thinking is that there’s a possibility Aaron caught, on his videocam, something in that timeframe, between 2:30 and 4:30, something really important that the Powers That Be don’t want to put out there, and so they hid that and then filled the “missing” time with these three first video clips.
And I’m ALSO thinking the three 3:30-ish video clips COULD POSSIBLY be “the beginning” of a video or series of videos that might contain that more extensive chunk of all the really important Granite Mountain Convo/Whatever/Additional footage.that we keep hearing about.
In saying this, I realize I’m really pushing out there into relatively thin air.
But the thing that nudges me to do that is that I can’t otherwise figure out how this video footage of the fairly important Model Creek Road burnout operation would have otherwise been held back from FOIA publication if it (in it’s unedited/uncut version) didn’t contain something that the Powers That Be didn’t SERIOUSLY want to with-hold from publication.
That’s why I don’t think the original version of this footage was simply considered to be just “padding,” even though it was obviously used as such here.
And, I acknowledge I could be totally wrong about this.
I’m just thinking out loud here.
Does what I’m saying make sense?
And when I say:
“What I’m thinking is that there’s a possibility Aaron caught, on his videocam, something in that timeframe, between 2:30 and 4:30, something really important that the Powers That Be don’t want to put out there, and so they hid that and then filled the “missing” time with these three first video clips”,
that means that, in order to do THE ABOVE–hide a video (most likely the second one) in the M2U headcam series. they would have had to change the filenames of these M2U headcam videos in order to accommodate that deletion.
Does this make sense?
Now your spinning like me It just got in my head there is something strange here but I do not know how to view and check these like you and WTKTT.
I knew there was something out of sink and you are giving me some info I did not know. What the hell is going on with these 3 videos and there connection or lack of connection to the Helmet Cam Videos.
I will tell you the truth I did not catch the difference or the time difference when I viewed them all. I would never have caught what you guys did until you started talking about it.
Then I looked at them again and the question machine started
turning over and over.
You guys have the ability to dig out this stuff I don’t.
Just a simple fire fighter I guess.
Is there really something here or just my imagination I know there is more video we know the FS made redactions so what else did they do with what we got?????
That’s why it takes a bunch of different kinds of minds to figure this stuff out.
I’ve just spent so much of my life looking at photography/digital images in series based on time. So it’s just the way my mind works.
And I’ve spent so much of this year doing the same regarding this fire, even though I’ve made my share of mistakes.
“that question machine”
The primal force that drives me is curiosity. That Question Machine.
“Just a simple fire fighter I guess.”
And I so respect and honor that you are that. My skills would be lost without yours.
I started “following wildfires” on the Internet via the Rodeo Chedeski Fire (whose smoke filled my house and yard and nose and lungs and tears way over here in Albuquerque).
I was really interested in how communities used the Internet to connect up and communicate and deal with what they had to deal with when they were impacted by wildfires.
The next neighborly “big one” was the Cerro Grande Fire, which I have a chunk of burnt pine from on my living room “altar.” And then and then and then….
Grounded in the fact that I lived in the Ponderosa Forest near Flagstaff for ten years and decided, when I moved back home to Albuquerque that, even though I would love to do that again, the forest was. given mismanagement and global warming, ultimately doomed.
We were in Colorado Springs for a Figure Skating Competition (my daughter did that) during the Hayman Fire. Obviously I went out and photographed that during a break.
But I actually had no real clue how wildfires were actually fought (even though my friends were on the Prescott College crew and I worked for the caterer).
That has been my big challenge this year. To learn, via my computer, which is relevantly inadequate, how that is actually done.
“Is there really something here or just my imagination”
That’s always where I begin. When something just doesn’t seem right…..
As in, like I wrote above about Chris’ camera, which called me into this whole alternate investigation.
Why is that camera so obviously sitting right in the middle of that deployment site and nobody seems to even be seeing it????
It takes ALL of us, giving our various skills and perspectives, questioning and challenging each other in a RESPECTFUL way, to look at this thing from all our different angles and histories and ways of thinking, to slowly, oh so slowly, especially in the face of various obstructions, begin to see and understand the TRUTH that this fire, and those who perished within it, are trying to speak to us.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 12, 2014 at 6:16 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> One question I have, though, is how are you, WTK, so sure one
>> of the Prescott Three didn’t take those first three videos–or the
>> longer video(s) they seem to have been cut out of?
I’m not ( sure ).
I’m pretty much not sure of a whole LOT of things when it comes to this latest ‘evidence dump’… including WHO saw WHAT, WHEN… WHY it was released at this time, or WHETHER it actually contains what it was supposed to.
I have read everything up above… and I think pretty much all the discussion is valid as to (perhaps) figuring out why some of this is the way we find it…
…but I am also going to try and ‘back up the bus’ here for a moment.
I actually just saw the new movie “Interstellar” this evening and, without giving anything away, I am feeling tonight like it would be easier for us to have a debate about what MIGHT be beyond the ‘event horizon’ of even any run-of-the-mill BLACK HOLE than for us to try to figure out why this latest ‘evidence dump’ from US Forestry is the way it is.
This latest ‘evidence dump’ has only been public for about 120 hours now.
It was NOT accompanied with any supporting documentation that even gives a CLUE about the contents.
It is perfectly obvious that SOMEONE added this stupid ‘R’ suffix to video filenames that have also obviously been ‘messed with’ and ‘redacted’ ( for reasons also unknown and unstated ).
It is also just as obvious that since you can only trust the US Forest Service as far as you could pass a bulldozer through a wood-chipper… that just because one of the filenames does NOT have an ‘R’ suffix on it doesn’t mean it wasn’t ALSO edited, redacted, shortened, cut, cropped, butchered or otherwise altered.
My ‘scenario’ above was merely trying to make sure I understood what Mr. Powers was thinking. Now that I do… I can’t say whether or not it happened. I just don’t know enough ( yet ) to say so one way or the other.
Before I was just taking that ‘sideroad’ to make sure I understood this ‘alternate theory’… my thinking was just like yours, Marti.
I was definitely more focused on scratching my head about the HUGE time gap between MU00262 and MU200263, and what that might mean, than what in the hell those 3 seemingly ‘disconnected’ videos are doing up there as the first THREE files in this ‘evidence dump’.
I am even inclined to TABLE the thinking about those first three videos until we at least get a handle on the Hulburd stuff and what HAS ( or has NOT ) actually been released.
Hopefully we are not the only ones who are totally confused by those first three videos… such as… WHO took them… and WHY are they included in this release.
Hopefully someone ELSE is looking into that ( InvestigativeMEDIA? AZREPUBLIC? Someone? )
Maybe someone else CAN actually wrestle at least some base-level explanation of what is actually included in this ‘release’… and WHY.
In the meantime… I am going to rely on my ‘instincts’ here and just ‘think out loud’ for a moment.
I am now speaking from the same instincts I had some time ago when I said it was simply NOT CREDIBLE to me to think that the ONLY time Aaron Hulburd would have used his Helmet-Camera that day was the 7 minutes and 49 seconds that suddenly appeared before Christmas last year.
All of my instincts told me “No way… there has to be MORE’.
My instincts were correct.
Those SAME instincts are NOW also telling me that some very important video footage is MISSING from even this latest release.
Hulburd is now proven to be a classic ‘videophile’.
He loves that Helmet Camera of his… and he loves to USE it.
It is, once again, NOT CREDIBLE to me that he would have turned that Helmet Camera OFF after shooting that first sequence with Todd Abel speaking over the Air-To-Ground channel during his second recon flight…and then ONLY turned it on again some hours later AFTER getting all the way to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot way down in Yarnell.
I do NOT know what that means in terms of the ‘filenames’ that have appeared in this ( totally undocumented ) ‘release’ package.
Yes… if he really did USE that camera even ONE more time between Todd Abel’s recon flight and that circus of confusion on Shrine Road… then that means the M2Uxxxxx filename sequences in this recent ‘release’ HAVE been ‘altered’.
I also fully understand what I am implying there.
If anyone CHANGED any of these filenames… that amounts to ‘tampering with evidence’. Even adding the ‘R’ to some of the original filenames might be construed as a slight bit of ‘tampering with evidence’ when it comes electronic files and filenames and not ‘preserving them in their original form’.
‘Tampering with evidence’ that is directly relevant to either a criminal or a civil court proceeding is not just being ‘clever’… it is a FELONY.
I am also going to return now to something you said, Marti… that was very, very important.
We need to take a deep breathe and first just look at the evidence that was released just last Saturday ‘as it is’ and not ‘as we would like it to be’.
There is ( as you also pointed out ) a LOT there… regardless of what else we might discover is actually ‘missing’.
But until we fully get our heads around what HAS been released… we won’t be able to make a coherent argument about what might still be MISSING.
I am still actually just working on the TRANSCRIPTS for these files.
As was demonstrated last night when I finally got around to working on the transcript for M2U00264… there do seem to be some VERY important ( and previously never heard or testified about ) background radio transmissions in even the material that HAS now been released.
It really is a ‘game changer’ to realize that Gary Cordes actually did TELL Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to tell that Engine crew to ‘watch’/wait’ for Granite Mountain and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely”.
It doesn’t matter that this ‘plan’ of Cordes’ to ‘get them out safely’ was never carried out. What matters is that this ‘plan’ existed… and we are only NOW learning about it.
So just since Saturday… we finally see proof positive that the US Forestry Service has ALWAYS been withholding important evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident.
And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others? ).
That pretty much throws every existing ADOSH interview back into the “Maybe they were telling everything they knew… maybe NOT” category.
So given all that… I think we should just continue to look hard at what HAS been released and squeeze all the information we can out of THAT, first… before we start debating what is beyond the BLACK-HOLE ‘event horizon’ that is the US Forestry Service and their mysterious motivations.
That’s what I’m going to do for the next few days, anyway.
I really do want to come up with a coherent case for what is still MISSING from what all my instincts still tell me MUST exist… but in order to do that I need to finish all these transcripts ( I’m only about half done ) and see what the evidence that I CAN see still tells me about the evidence someone still doesn’t WANT me to see.
In the meantime… it sure as hell would be nice to hear from Aaron Hulburd about all this.
He knows what he has.
He knows what he has ALWAYS had.
I hope he realizes that he can’t avoid the cards that fate has dealt him here.
Someday, somehow… he is going to have to TALK about that day and what evidence he supplied in the days that followed.
And he is going to have to tell the TRUTH.
Sooner ( rather than later ) would be helpful.
One final ‘off the top of my head’ question for this evening.
If it can be proven that Gary Cordes didn’t just ‘forget’ to tell ADOSH about his plan to send one or more engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch with the specific goal of making sure Granite Mountain left the fire safely…
…but that he was INTENTIONALLY not telling the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the accident about his ‘plan’ for Granite Mountain, and what he knew, and that he actually told his TFLD(t) to begin implementing that ‘get them out’ plan…
…does he get to keep his ‘Firefighter of the Year’ award?
As a Fire Fighter let me add a little to this Gary Cordes plan.
I am have a hard time understanding what 1 or 2 Engines would have accomplished at Boulder Springs Ranch.
Esperanza comes flashing back more people in harms way with a Fire absolutely going to hell.
My only conclusion if this was actually happening Cordes was trying to cover his ASS—
There was nothing Engine crews could have done to help GM but also end up trapped in a HOT safety zone or be over run by the fire on the way into the SZ.
Another more FF dying here by more bad decisions on this Fire.
This starts to speak of the incompetence of the overhead in charge of this fiasco They were totally over there heads as Type 2 OPS and IC.
Another one of those WTF moments on this fire????????
Good point(s).
Don’t forget that even WEEKS after the incident… Gary Cordes was still estimating the SIZE of the Boulder Springs Ranch ‘Safety Zone’ ( to ADOSH investigators ) as between 20 and 30 acres.
It was no such thing. His ‘estimate’ was about TEN TIMES larger than it actually was.
Maybe he thought, given the ‘push’ of the fire… that Granite Mountain WAS going to need an ‘Engine Crew’ there with them at the BSR when they made it there in order to ‘ride out the fire’ at that location.
So maybe even with Cordes over-estimating the size of that ‘Safety Zone’ that HE had personally ‘assigned’ to them that morning… he still had his doubts about how ‘safe’ it really was.
It’s also hard to say that since it is now totally confirmed that ( despite anything the SAIR was claiming ) someone in ‘fire command’ knew EXACTLY where Granite Mountain was going and exactly WHEN they were attempting that risky move…
…why didn’t they send Crew Buggies there?
At the moment Cordes is telling Esquibel to ‘send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch and tell him to watch for Granite Mountain to be sure they get out safely’… FOUR Crew Carriers were now pulling into the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
ANY TWO of these Crew Carriers ( either GM’s carriers or Blue Ridge’s Carriers ) could have been used to ‘go and get Granite Mountain’.
For Cordes to be telling Esquible to send an ENGINE over to the Boulder Springs Ranch means he really must have been having his doubts about the real ‘Safety’ of the ‘Safety Zone’ he had chose that morning.
Only Gary Cordes can elaborate on this PLAN he had to ‘get Granite out safely’.
He had the opportunity to freely discuss this during his ADOSH interview and provide some clarity… but he chose to NOT do so.
He was playing some sort of “Ask me the right question and I’ll give you the right answer” game during his ADOSH interview… just like Tyson Esquibel was doing.
I’d still love to know if Arizona Forestry and the SAIT knew about this ‘plan to get them out’ that Cordes had and that he actually instructed Esquibel to implement that day shortly before the deployment.
If they did… then that was just more information the SAIT decided no one was ever going to hear about from THEM. No way.
SAIT = ‘Special Accident Investigation Team’ my ass.
More like ‘Seriously Avoid Imparting Truth’.
Back to the news releases and statements by the State——–
The State at no time in there release of the Videos on Nov. 8th says they reviewed them with the families or for that matter the Lawyers of the families. They received them on the 7th and released them on the 8th.
So how could the families especially the wife in California view them and make comments.
These tapes were reviewed by we already know 1 Captain from Prescott weeks ago when he told the Families they would be released. I think the Families viewed the then and then when asked by media if they had seen them made short statements not stating when they saw them or reporters just left out the info.
Another clue is that the black out was done by the FS not State as stated.
Some Families did not want that in the release. That also says they saw the Video early enough for the FS to black that out as well they should have.
I truly believe knowing the Government if they were being forced to release the Video would have reviewed it with the Families, Firefighters, County and city officials for comment before the release
I think they redacted the first release viewing and then redacted more before it was released to the State who released it to the Media only..
Any ones thoughts I am just stating what I see and the earlier information I had????
The question in my not even 50% awake brain that has been percolating is what is the role of ADOSH in this?
If I recall correctly, in some of your posts (I think) you said it was ADOSH showing the videos to the families. Or something like that.
Am I remembering correctly?
If so, what do you think? If not, what am I not remembering correctly?
No you are right but what I got was second hand so cant guarantee
if some of the info was mixed up. I am reading in the info that the FS controlled the Video until they released to the state so ADOSH showing it may have been a mix up from what I got. Or maybe not?
Thanks. Gotcha.
My question Did ADOSH have the Video and AZ State Fire did not????????
NOTE ABOVE
Joy is also confirming that the Video was being review in the Prescott
area prior to release confirming my information.
THE FISH SMELL IS GETTING STRONGER
Too bad it’s not grilled freshly caught smoked salmon.
Or the rainbow trout we used to catch in the Pecos.
That would be so much sweeter.
Thank you, US Forest Service!
Bob- we heard it mixed too over here but the BOTTOM LINE we were right on new information surfacing-
Bob said:
I truly believe knowing the Government if they were being forced to release the Video would have reviewed it with the Families, Firefighters, County and city officials for comment before the release
Joy replies:
It compliments the folks we speak to and of course you got to get at this point a lot of folks do not want to have their names out especially just looking locally 2-3 people have died a month and some vanished—so really I understand but yes I support this statement above for we were approached that there was new information to be looked over that in that new information that this whole court thing may never make it to court and talks of settling was told to us-
I agree with both Mr. Powers AND Joy here.
It would only make SENSE ( common sense ) that the people to whom this new evidence would be the most ‘sensitive’ would have at least had a chance to SEE it BEFORE it had to be released due to valid ( legal ) pending FOIA requests.
But Mr. Powers is right.
If we are to believe the Arizona Forestry service when they say they ONLY received the material ( for the FIRST time ) from the US Forestry Service sometime last Friday… and then it was all fully uploaded and ready to ‘go public’ from the AZF YouTube channel just hours later on Saturday morning…
…that means there wasn’t TIME to really ‘show it around’ to ALL the family members, get comments, and then do any further ‘redacting’ according to THEIR wishes.
No. This all had to be ‘coordinated’ on a larger timeframe than just one Friday afternoon and the following Saturday morning.
We are still being bullshitted by Arizona Forestry with regards to how this actually all ‘went down’.
Given the absolute ‘surprise’ ( and yes, shock ) expressed by attorney ( and former Hotshot ) Patrick McGroder on behalf of the families he represents… combined with the media reports from SOME family members about how ‘worried’ they were after ‘seeing’ this material…
…one possible explanation could be ( and I still hate to suggest this but I feel it’s plausible ) is that the video was only pre-shown to family members who have NOT filed any legal action against the State of Arizona.
We need to know more about this J.P. Vicente guy ( the Prescott Fire Captain ) who WARNED family members about this release WEEKS ago.
WHO did he WARN? Only family members who haven’t retained counsel?
HOW did he know as much as he seemed to know about what the US Forestry Serivce was about to release… and what was contained in it… when we are now supposed to believe the Arizona Forestry Service itself didn’t know anything about that until some shit showed up on their doorstep just last Friday?
There is still a ‘STORY within the STORY’ here that needs to come out.
You can read above but the family member I talked to was told nothing or heard nothing from the Captain.
This is one of those times when I really, really hope I am WRONG about something.
If a decision was made to actually ONLY pre-show this sensitive material ( before public released ) to the families of deceased firefighters who have NOT retained counsel…
…then I hope every single person involved with that decision and the implementation of it loses their jobs. Immediately. Lawyers included.
It would be beyond despicable. It would be disgusting.
**
** SPGS1 GARY CORDES TOLD TASK FORCE 2 TRAINEE TYSON ESQUIBEL
** TO SEND AN ENGINE TO THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH AND TO
** MAKE SURE GRANITE MOUNTAIN GOT OUT SAFELY.
Reply to calvin post on November 11, 2014 at 10:34 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> M2U00264 (1minute 40 seconds)
>>
>> (unidentified speaker)Can we/ Do we have a couple
>> of engines holding in place at the BSR?
>>
>> (Second speaker Cordis?) I’ll send one that way
>>
>> 1. Is that what you all hear?
Yes… but there is MORE.
This moment in that video actually captures a conversation between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and Task Force 2 Trainee Tyson Esquibel where Cordes specifically instructs Esquibel to send an engine over to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to arrive there… and then make sure they all got out safely.
So Gary Cordes definitely KNEW that Granite Mountain was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… was supposed to ARRIVE there… and he specifically told Tyson Esquibel to take care of making sure they all got out of there safely.
Tyson Esquibel said he would do that… but he never did.
He didn’t have TIME. Esquibel said he would take care of that after he got out of the Shrine area and regrouped at the Ranch House Restaurant… but the deployment began WHILE Esquibel was still driving down Highway 89 towards the Ranch House Restaurant.
** THE ACTUAL TIMES FOR M2U00264
At the very end of this video… we see and hear Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown pull up to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV and start saying ‘Hello’ to Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( who was filming ), and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
According to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data… the exact time of that arrival at that spot was 1637 ( 4:37 PM )… just 2 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to hit the radio.
The M2U0064 video is 2 minutes and 4 seconds long.
So that makes the actual START time for this M2U0064 video right around 1635 ( 4:35 PM ) ( 1637 minus 2 minutes ).
Here is exactly what appear to be said in the background of this video…
Caveat: This is exactly what I ( me, personally ) can hear in the background.
Your mileage may vary.
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
————————————————————————
+1:37 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Task force two, Cordes, on our TAC.
+1:40 ( 1636.40 / 4:36.40 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Cordes, Task force two.
+1:42 ( 1636.42 / 4:36.42 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): We have a coupla engines holdin’ in
place at the, uh, Boulder Springs Ranch.
+1:49 ( 1636.49 / 4:36.49 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): I’ll send one that way.
Uh… we’re gettin’ spots up here… but I’ll run one over.
+1:55 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.
Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
+2:06 ( 1637.06 / 4:37.06 )
(TLFD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.
Uh… we’ll regroup at the… uh… cafe and then send somebody in.
+2:12 ( 1637.12 / 4:37.12 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Sounds like a good plan.
————————————————————————
So Gary Cordes specifically instructed TFLD2( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to be SURE and tell him to ‘watch’ for ‘Granite Mountain’ and make sure they got out safely.
Sounded ‘like a good plan’ to Cordes… but it was already too late.
Esquibel said he would take care of that AFTER they all got down to the Ranch House Restaurant… but the TIME when they formulated this ‘plan’ was already 4:37 PM. In just 2 minutes… Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to hit the radio and Eric Marsh would then announce that they were deploying shelters BEFORE Tyson Esquibel would actually even arrive at the Ranch House Restaurant.
Neither Gary Cores nor Tyson Esquibel mention this ‘plan’ that they both agreed upton to make sure that Granite Mountain was OUT and SAFE in their ADOSH interviews.
However… Tyson Esquibel actually VERIFIES that this very conversation recorded above did, in fact, take place. He just fails to mention that he was told to send an Engine in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure Granite Mountain got out safely.
Esquibel then also DENIES ( to the ADOSH investigator ) that he even knew or had ever ‘heard’ that Granite Mountain was headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch.
From Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview on August 28, 2013 1:11 PM
————————————————————–
Q = Bruce Hanna
A = Tyyson Esquibel ( Task Force 2 Trainee on June 30, 2013 )
————————————————————–
13 Q: Okay. My name is Bruce Hanna. I work for Arizona State OSHA. Today is
14 Wednesday, August the 28th. It is 1:11 pm, and I am with?
15
16 Q1: Uh, my name is Rick Picard. Last name is P-I-C-A-R-D. I’m Deputy Chief
17 of the Peoria Fire Department, and I am the Operations Chief.
18
19 A: Uh, Tyson Esquibel, spelling T-Y-S-O-N, last name E-S-Q-U-I-B-E-L.
20
21 Q: Okay.
22
23 A: I am a firefighter with Peoria Fire Department and was a, uh, task force leader
24 trainee on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Uh, task force 2. That was what my title was.
2276 Q: 1632 request – what is that saying? Structure Group 1 requesting…
2277
2278 A: Um, yeah, just requested someone to, uh, head over to Boulder Springs. Um,
2279 I asked if we could just meet at the café and regroup. And I – he agreed.
2280
2281 Q: Were you guys starting to see structures getting – burning in – in Glen Ilah or
2282 Yarnell at this time?
2283
2284 A: Um, at, um – well there was a lot of people moving out of that area. It was
2285 getting right to the edge of the – the two communities…
2286
2287 Q: Uh-huh.
2288
2289 A: …especially the Yarnell community.
2290
2291 Q: Uh-huh.
2292
2293 A: Um, so not quite yet. I would say that was probably closer to, uh, 1655 or so.
2294
2295 Q: Okay.
2296
2297 A: Probably in that time frame where we started seeing structures go.
2298
2299 Q: Okay. Um, you know, we talked to Paul Musser, and he made a comment
2300 that, uh, some time around 1600 or something like that, he had heard some
2301 traffic from Marsh saying we’re going down a predetermined route to a safety
2302 zone. Did – did you hear anything like that?
2303
2304 A: No, sir.
—————————————————————–
Just for the sake of completeness… here is the actual Blue Ridge GPS
tracking data that matches the timeframe for Aaron Hulburd’s
Helmet-Cam clip M2U00264…
FROM THE BLUE RIDGE GPS TRACKING DATA
——————————————————————–
NOTE: Blue Ridge evacuates the Youth Camp (YC) and Shrine area now and BR convoy heads directly SOUTH to the Ranch House Restaurant. They only stop for 2 minutes on the way out at the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine to (apparently) speak to the firefighters who are already there ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) and who, only minutes later, are going to be shooting the Helmet-Cam video that captures GM radio traffic.
According to this GPS tracking… The BR GPS unit ( Brown ) was actually still there where the Helmet-Cam video was about to be shot just 60 seconds before GM Captain Steed transmits his first “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY message at 1639.
SJS = Saint Joseph Shrine ( Parking lot where Aaron Hulburd was filming )
RHR = Ranch House Restaurant
1635 – 34.228414, -112.754134 – 0644.378 – 07.32 – East out driveway of the Youth Camp (YC)
1636 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0624.010 – 07.09 – At St. Joseph Shrine (SJS) parking lot now
1637 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary at the SJS parking lot
NOTE: The 1637 entry above is the moment that is also captured at the end of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video M2U00264.
1638 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary at the SJS parking lot
1639 – 34.224803, -112.749746 – 1342.030 – 15.25 – Suddenly all the way EAST on Shrine Rd.
1640 – 34.222603, -112.746935 – 1188.170 – 13.50 – At intersection of Shrine Rd and Highway 89.
1641 – 34.217985, -112.750025 – 1966.140 – 22.34 – Heading SOUTH on Highway 89 to the RHR
1642 – 34.213532, -112.755497 – 2468.580 – 28.05 – Heading SOUTH on Highway 89 to the RHR
1643 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0167.099 – 01.90 – Arrival at the Ranch House Restaurant
——————————————————————————-
I agree the mention of the 2 engines at BSR is a question (is prefaced by DO we have…). Of course that makes sense when he says he would send one over. The next part is very soft and hard to hear, but I clearly hear the word “Granite” and something about “out”. Given Esquibel’s remarks about going to the café and then sending someone in, WTKTT’s “transcript” is likely spot-on. Whether anyone else knew where GM was going in not clear, but it appears Gary Cordes was clued in. To at least one person, their actions were not a big mystery. This conversation would seem to lend credence to the idea that GM went to the ranch simply to get out.
Reply to mike post on November 12, 2014 at 6:24 am
>> mike said…
>>
>> I agree the mention of the 2 engines at BSR is a
>> question (is prefaced by DO we have…).
I was actually not 100 percent sure I truly heard the word DO at the start of that transmission from Cordes ( which is why I didn’t actually type it into the transcript above )… but yes… it MIGHT be there… and I WOULD tend to say that Cordes’ inflection seems to go UP at the end of the sentence… indicating it was, in fact, a QUESTION to Esquibel..
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Of course that makes sense when he says he would send one over.
>> The next part is very soft and hard to hear, but I clearly hear
>> the word “Granite” and something about “out”.
There is a moment therewhen KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s voice jumps into the foreground and sort of ‘covers’ what Gary Cordes is telling Esquibel to do…but if you simply ‘filter’ Yowell’s voice out of the audio track… it is much easier to hear that Cordes is actually telling Esquibel to get whatever engine he is going to send to the BSR to be sure and ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain, and ‘get them out safely’.
Reply to mike post on November 12, 2014 at 6:24 am
>> mike said…
>>
>> Whether anyone else knew where GM was going in not clear, but
>> it appears Gary Cordes was clued in.
Yes. That is actually no real revelation at all.
The SAIR, of course, mentions NOTHING about Cordes being fully aware of what their ‘plan’ was and knowing exactly WHERE they were going. It wasn’t until Cordes was interviewed by ADOSH that we heard Gart Cordes himself say he had ‘no doubt’ ( at any time ) that they were actually headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
He even told ADOSH he was absolutely sure they had ‘plenty of time to get there’ and he was shocked when told where the bodies actually were.
>> To at least one person, their actions were not a big mystery.
Well… it IS now a ‘new flash’ that at was at least TWO people.
Even though it was very close to the time of the deployment… there is now no doubt that Tyson Esquibel ALSO knew what Cordes knew… that Granite Mountain was ‘coming out’ via the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Esquibel never mentions this in his ADOSH interview and… indeed… actually seemed to say he did NOT know this.
Did Esquibel pass on what he knew there in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot after the realization there was a deployment… and THAT is actually how Frisby and Brown knew to first try to attempt to ‘break through’ via Lakewood?
That is unknown. Esquibel never mentions that, either, in his ADOSH interview.
There have also always been those Tom Story photos of an ‘Engine’ LEAVING the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot and then appearing to head INTO the Glen Ilah area via Lakewood Drive… while everyone else was still ARRIVING at the Restaurant.
Perhaps that really was Esquibel still doing what we now know he was told to do by Gary Cordes… send an ‘Engine’ in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘go and get’ Granite Mountain.
Esquibel also mentions nothing about this to ADOSH.
It’s sort of obvious now that in both Cordes’ and Esquibel’s ADOSH inteviews… they were ‘picking and choosing’ what to tell them.
They were not uncooperative… but both interviews seemed to be a “ask me the right question and I’ll give you the right answer” situation.
They were obviously not ‘volunteering’ some information.to ADOSH.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> This conversation would seem to lend credence to the idea
>> that GM went to the ranch simply to get out.
Yes. That seems clear ( at least to Cordes ).
If Marsh/Steed had any other ‘plan’ once reaching the Boulder Springs Ranch other than just ‘getting the hell out of there’… then it seems that ‘plan’ was NOT shared with SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
I do wonder, however, if this thing about ‘Engines being staged at the Ranch’ factored into Marsh’s decision making.
Did Gary Cordes actually TELL Marsh he thought there were 2 engines staged there… or that even if there weren’t… if he could just make it to the Ranch he would be sure and send an engine there ( just like we now hear him telling Esquibel to do ) and he would ‘get them out of there’?
As usual… there is still more to learn here.
When we thought we were talking about an air tanker
could the statement ( I’ll get one down to you) have meant an Engine ?
Mr. Powers… are you referring to the moment captured in Robert Caldwell’s video ( circa 3:50 PM ) when we hear OPS Todd Able tell DIVSA Eric Marsh…
1. Keep ME informed ( of your situation and your whereabouts ).
2. Hunker and be safe ( in the black ).
3. We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP.
If so…then the answer to your question is no.
Not the same moment or the same topic.
The question to really ask now is…
Since we now know Cordes was specifically telling his Task Force 2 Trainee to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to ALSO tell whoever he sent there to ‘watch for Granite Mountain and make sure they get out safely’…
…was this Cordes somehow fulfilling a PROMISE that he had made to Eric Marsh?
Did Cordes actually TELL Marsh over the radio something like “Hey Eric… if you guys can make it to that Ranch I showed you on the map this morning I will make sure someone is there to pick you up”.
Cordes doesn’t report having any kind of conversation like that with Marsh… but we also now can’t trust his ADOSH interview because we also now know he was NOT mentioning this other conversation he had with Esquibel.
There is more to learn here… from both Cordes and Esquibel… and anyone else who also heard this conversation.
Correction for above ( regarding the TIME(s) ).
I goofed. I was off on the TOTAL LENGTH of video M2U064 by about 90 seconds.
The actual ( full ) length of this Hulburd video clip is 3 minutes and 37 seconds.
I will post another ( complete, start to finish ) transcript of this entire video soon with all the correct timestamps on the dialog…. but for now… just SUBTRACT about 90 seconds to the TIMES printed above.
The time of 1637 for the moment at the end of the video when we see Frisby and Brown pull up to the Shrine parking lot is still accurate, however. That comes from the Blue Ridge GPS Unit itself.
Regardless… those 90 seconds don’t change what actually happened.
There was still no TIME for Esquibel to carry out the ‘plan’ he and Cordes agreed to about ‘going to get Granite Mountain at the Boulder Springs Ranch’.
The deployment took place BEFORE Esquibel actually reached the Ranch House Restaurant.and even had a chance to send that engine in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘get them out of there’ safely’, as he was told to by Cordes.
WTKTT Great work if what you found is accurate and can be clarified we may have the needle in the hay stack.
I can not hear those placeless well enough to verify what you are saying but trust your word for now.
If this is the only thing we get out of these tapes it is still huge……….
Some times people just miss removing simple things that’s when investigators start celebrating.
As is the case with MOST of these ‘background recordings’… the only way to know for SURE is to re-interview the participants and see if THEY recall the conversation and/or admit to having it.
There is also no doubt this conversation took place on TAC 3, the frequency that Cordes had gotten assigned especially for ‘Task Force 2’ in Yarnell.
That means anyone scanning TAC 3 probably heard this same exchange between Cordes and Esquibel and could also be ‘re-interviewed’.
I’m not sure about ‘needle in the haystack’…. but I agree with mike above.
This seems to prove that if Granite Mountain had ANY other plan than to simply ‘make it to the Ranch’ to just ‘get the hell out of there and go home’… then Gary Cordes didn’t know about it.
Looks like you might have been right (again) all along, Mr. Powers.
They were not trying to be heroes for anyone.
They just wanted to ‘get the hell out of there’.
I’ll reserve that as my personal opinion
I do believe that the discussing and argument precipitated the fact that Cordes then knew or even talked to Marsh. about there move. It is out there as sure as I sit here in a recording. I believe the SAIT knew it and kept it from the investigation.
#$%&*+!@$$%^ Words And as we have known all along no communication problems.
If in fact Cordes working as a State Employee Knowingly allowed them to do what they did the State is in very deep KAKA.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 12, 2014 at 8:37 am
I>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do believe that the discussing and argument
>> precipitated the fact that Cordes then knew or
>> even talked to Marsh. about there move.
This new piece of evidence does suggest there were ‘other’ conversations ( still unreported ) between Cordes and Marsh.
Maybe this even factored into the (alleged) ‘argument’.
Perhaps Steed was taking the position that regardless of whether they could reach the Ranch… what THEN? How did they know they just wouldn’t get ‘stuck’ there and have to ‘ride out the fire’ in a location that was probably survivable… but not even nearly as safe as where they already were.
Marsh might have already had some kind of ‘promise’ from Cordes that he would be sure to send one ( or more ) vehicles to the Boulder Springs Ranch to already be there to ‘get them’ when they arrived… which is now EXACTLY what we hear him telling Tyson Esquibel to do. That was the ‘plan’.
Marsh might have then ‘played that card’ with Steed and said “Jesse… all we have to do is get to that Ranch. Gary Cordes said he would take care of having us ‘picked up’ when we get there.”
Steed then ( still reluctantly? ) agreed to ‘make the move’.
It’s possible this is the way it went down that day.
Someone needs to re-interview Gary Cordes, Tyson Esquibel, and anyone else who might have heard the radio traffic and was aware of this ‘plan’ for one or more engines to ‘go and get Granite Mountain’.
So when does this become a FEDERAL investigation by the FBI?
I mean its okay to invade our lives privately and know every detail to Sonny and I for your benefits & twists & turns whoever is running this CONTROL show and we know that FIRMLY by a conversation with Katy that we have been listened on in our own private spot when hiking headquarters was at U-Stow It office last Fall. as well as we have proof we were followed by a black escalade last year because WHO GOES IN THE DESERT where we camped out at the times we happen to go and come back…really?
I’ve been asking people when/how a federal agency obstructs justice in a state OSH investigation, is there any precedent for that kicking up into a federal QSHA investigation.
But, yes, I agree that maybe this should/could put it into an FBI ballpark.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 11, 2014 at 8:46 pm
NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was discussing some of the new John Burfiend comments heard in the newly released videos. The discussion ‘descended’ back to the issue of whether or not Bravo 33 ever really did do a VISUAL check on Granite Mountain’s location.
The SAIR says that Bravo 33 ‘offered’ to do that… but that OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and said it wasn’t necessary because he was sure they were ‘in the black’.
That SAIR description does NOT match either statements from Todd Abel himself made in his interview with ADOSH… nor does it match some other peripheral evidence in the Air-To-Air radio channel captures.
And then there has always been the possible moment at the START of one of the Panebaker VLAT videos were we SEEM to actually hear John Burfiend confirming his ‘visual sighting’ of Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM and then asking someone on the ground to ‘call them’ and confirm whether or not DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) is actually WITH the men he has ‘seen’ down there, because Burfiend is not sure if he is, or not, and wants to know.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’ve pointedly stayed out of these discussions about what’s being said
>> on the videos when what’s being said is not clear because of audio noise, etc.
>>
>> My ear is not that good.
>>
>> But at this point, because of all this convo, I would to at least know what
>> we are talking about.
>>
>> Which video is this in and where in the video is it?
This ‘possible’ radio traffic involving John Burfiend in B33 talking to someone on the ground about his ‘visual sighting’ of Granite Mountain circa 1613 ( 4:13 PM ) is at the very start of the following Panebaker video…
20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
I’ve posted what I believe to be an accurate transcript of the radio captures in this video several times… and ALWAYS with ‘Huge caveats’ that the transcript represents what I ( me, personally ) am hearing in this video… but ‘your mileage may ( of course ) vary’.
So here it is again exactly as I have posted it several times already, spanning multiple chapters of this ongoing discussion.
I actually just listened to the video once again with fresh ears… and I still stand by the following transcript. It really, truly does represent what I am hearing in the background.
Here is exactly what has been posted before… with only one addition.
This version is updated to show the exact moment ( near the end ) when the video captures the same VLAT retardant drop that we now know is ALSO represented by ABC15 Helicopter footage clip 05.
That’s the one I posted the ‘crossfade’ on just several days ago.
** TRANSCRIPT FOR PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
This video is 3 minutes and 31 seconds long.
NOTE: Since the timestamps used in the filenames for these Panebaker videos actually represents the END time for the clip(s)… that means the actual START time for this 161620 video is 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
Direct link to this 161620 Air Study video in the online Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABZHI5bHPGycOVSAZbxff6Ea/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video#lh:null-20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
NOTE: This is the video that *appears* to capture ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) saying
he can ‘see’ GM and they keep saying ( to him ) they are ‘comfortable’ but he
doesn’t find that credible based on the fire behavior he is seeing from the air.
ASM2/B33 ( Burfiend ) then tells whoever he is speaking to on the GROUND over
the A2G channel to CALL Marsh and ASK him if he is WITH Granite Mountain.
Someone on the ground then immediately does, in fact, call and asks… “Granite Mountain…
what’s your status right now?” That’s when we get the ‘dodgy’ response(s) from
Eric Marsh ( and Jesse Steed? ).
NOTE: This is ALSO the video where, at +5 seconds, we see Jason Clawson
and his UTV dead-center in the video… heading EAST on Hays Ranch
Road and down to Shrine road… and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’
Yowell are right behind him. As Jason Clawson passes the camera in
his vehicle he is actively talking on either a cellphone or a handheld radio.
Here is what I believe is the FULL transcript of that video… including the part at the very beginning which is what CAUSES someone to actually call Granite Mountain to ask them what their status was at +41 seconds into the video ( 4:16.30 PM ).
What actually seems to be captured at the start of this video is someone on the ground confirming with ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) that he (ASM2/B33) can actually SEE Granite Mountain ‘behind those hills’ and ‘on the corner of the fire’… but ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) is also concerned that they keep saying they are ‘comfortable’ where he can see them.
ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) seems to also say that is ‘not credible’ ( based on the fire behavior he is seeing at this time ) and he INSISTS that someone on the ground call Granite Mountain and at least make sure that DIVS A (Marsh) is actually ‘with them’.
ASM2/B33 was being forced to play double duty as Air Attack at this point since Rory Collins abruptly left the area a few minutes earlier because his pilot had ‘timed out’… and ASM2/B33 needs to KNOW if ‘DIVS A’ ( or simply ‘Alpha’, as ASM2 says ) is actually with GM where he can (apparently) SEE them down there circa 4:13 PM when this ‘conversation’ seems to be taking place.
NOTE: This is a transcrpt of only the BACKGROUND radio traffic on the A2G and TAC channels that seems to have been captured by this video. The foreground traffic on the A2A channel with ASM2/B33 Thomas French talking to other planes is NOT included in this transcript.
HUGE CAVEAT: This is MY best interpretation of the background audio for that entire video. Your mileage may, of course, vary… but I would put money on the following translation for the background captured radio traffic in this Panebaker 161620 Air Study video.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 STARTS AT 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
+0:08 ( 1612.57 / 4:12.57 PM )
(Unknown): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+0:12 ( 1613.01 / 4:13.01 PM )
(ASM2 – B33 – Burfiend): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re
comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 just TOLD them to do.
He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS.
It is now about 4:13.30 PM, just a few minutes before the SAIR said they were about to leave the
two-track road and drop into the box canyon at approximately 4:20 PM.
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
(Unknown): Granite Mountain ( Five? )… What’s your status right now?
NOTE: A pretty heavy accent on this speaker. Sounds like Louisiana Cajun?
What he actually says almost sounds like… “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?
ALSO NOTE: Even though the caller asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically, and not ‘DIVS A’… Eric Marsh responds immediately on behalf of Granite Mountain before Jesse Steed even has a chance to say anything. Jesse only appears to ‘chime in’ with his own ‘status’ report about “we’re pushin’ our way down into the structures” when Marsh is done speaking.
+0:52 ( 1613.41 / 4:13.31 PM )
(DIVSA – Eric Marsh): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact
escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. ( slight pause )
mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
+1:07 ( 1613.56 / 4:13.56 PM )
( Another voice immediately adds to what Marsh said but it is )
( NOT Marsh this time. It sounds like Jesse Steed. This is not confirmed. )
(Jesse Steed): We’ll be pushin’ our way down into the structures.
+1:10 ( 1613.59 / 4:13.59 PM )
( Another voice. Very quickly): Copy that.
+1:21 ( 1614.10 / 4:14.10 PM )
(Unknown): Ten four. You with Granite Mountain right now?
NOTE: Whoever is talking with Marsh at this point uses the phrase ‘Ten four’ to acknowledge a transmission instead of the usual ‘Copy’ or ‘Copy that’. This, itself, should help to identify the caller.
+1:24 ( 1614.13 / 4:14.13 PM )
(DIVSA – Eric Marsh): Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
NOTE: Marsh seems to completely ‘dodge’ the question he was asked.
Either he didn’t hear it correctly or he was purposely deciding NOT to
say whether he was actually ‘with’ Granite Mountain at that point in time.
As for the rest of this video…
There appear to be some other background conversations in this video before we hear the 11 ( ELEVEN ) shutter clicks of Eric Panebaker and the others with him in the foreground actually shooting still photos of the VLAT drop… but there is also HEAVY road traffic at this point that will take a lot more work to filter out.
VLAT 911 RETARDANT DROP TAKES PLACE…
+2:22 – ( 1615.11 / 4:15.11 PM ) – VLAT 911 STARTS DROPPING RETARDANT
+2:36 – ( 1615.25 / 4:15.25 PM ) VLAT 911 STOP DROPPING RETARDANT, HARD LEFT ON EXIT.
VLAT 911 RETARDANT DROP DURATION: 14 SECONDS
NOTE: This matches exactly the ‘drop location’ and ‘drop duration’ of the VLAT drop filmed by ABC15 Helicopter Air15 when it was over the fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM that day.
This would be sequential clip number 05 in the ‘Air15’ raw video footage.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 ENDS AT 1616.20 ( 4:16.20 PM )
Copy.
Thank you!!
Thanks that was what I was trying to refer to yesterday that you had posted way back
As you know I was getting a little frustrated with some one.
I was following and understanding that.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 10, 2014 at 8:34 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m also thinking whatever accommodation AZF may be trying to negotiate
>> with ADOSH is going to be seriously negated by this whole thing.
Yes. It’s really hard to understand the ‘timing’ on this.
It is perfectly obvious that the ‘plan’ was to ‘get out ahead of the story’ and release this ( redacted ) information from a place where both Arizona Forestry and the US Forestry Service could still feel like they had ‘control’ of what the public gets to see…
…but if Arizona Forestry still thinks they can seriously challenge the ADOSH findings then maybe there really is something to that talk about ‘Datura smoke’ messing with people’s brains in Arizona.
The newly released material does nothing but SUPPORT the existing ADOSH findings… right down to firefighters seen there on Shrine Road all coughing their brains out as they were evacuating WAY too late from that location.
This ‘evidence dump’ also proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that BOTH Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service have ALWAYS been ( and still ARE ) withholding ‘evidence’ that they have always had in their possession from both the families of the men who died AND the people who were charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident itself.
Arizona Forestry’s own reason for challenging the ADOSH findings was stated ( in their own letter of complaint ) that they felt ADOSH made conclusions ‘without substantive evidence’.
Now the same Arizona Forestry publishes just SOME of the ‘substantive evidence’ that both they AND the US Forestry Service had been withholding even from ADOSH itself.
Not a good situation for Arizona Forestry.
I believe the ADOSH findings are going to stand.
I also believe that ADOSH might have the right to do ANOTHER investigation based on the new reality that they were never given full access to all available evidence in the first place.
One more time… with feeling ( and ALL the evidence this time )?
Copy. Thank you!
I’ve been asking people I encounter, who even only vaguely might have the knowledge to answer, some version of this:
What happens when a federal agency obstructs justice by obstructing a state OSH investigation? Is there any precedence for that triggering a federal ADOSH investigation?
So far nobody I’ve asked has any answer to that.
ADOSH has, it seems, every reason to instigate a second investigation. But it seems to me, at this point, USFS could keep obstructing that, as they have done so far.
It seems to me, all these things considered, that something on a Federal level may need to be launched in order to force the US Forest Service to actually cooperate.
I have so completely lost any respect I have ever had for the United States Forest Service.
That doesn’t mean I have lost any respect for a vast majority of their employees, who, apparently, their employer is totally willing to manipulate and abandon, if it deems it necessary in order to protect its “image.”
I think only a federal level investigation is adequate and just here.
Marti said: “Sorry, counselor, hate to ruin your day… You seems to have forgotten one very important ACTUAL truth. These videos were not taken with a cellphone.”
My Response: WRONG, Marti. The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind). I haven’t looked at the metadata of the other videos.
Marti also said: “ALL of the videos I have bothered to take the time to download (which is most of them taken on this fire) were taken with iphones–either generation 4 or 5–or up-to date samsungs, except for the ones taken with a Go-Pro (which these by Aaron may have also been filmed with, but the one actual video actually published last spring had no camera metadata attached to it), a fairly expensive camera. I have never seen a video taken with the ancient flip-phones you are so certain those poor fire-fighters use. That’s an ACTUAL truth.”
My Response: I haven’t looked at what you downloaded, Marti. Sorry. I have too much of my own stuff to get through at this point, and I imagine you uploaded or downloaded stuff I already have, so I just cannot make the time right now to go look. Apologies. That is why I was ONLY commenting on those three videos that WTKTT was proclaimin for sure were sliced down to 29.8 seconds or some such. The truth is that they weren’t sliced. They were that length to begin with. Hope this helps.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 11, 2014 at 3:40 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>> The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind).
>> I haven’t looked at the metadata of the other videos.
So… are you implying that you HAVE looked at the metadata for the for these first three videos… and you are trying to get us to believe there is something in there that tells YOU what kind of device took these videos?
There is NO device metadata information in the first three video files released by Arizona Forestry.
The videos sitting in the Arizona Forestry account are NOT the originals.
There is NOTHING in those copies of the original videos that Arizona Forestry has uploaded to YouTube that indicates exactly what kind of ‘device’ was used to shoot the videos.
The fact that the ‘image size’ in the metadata is reported as 176×144 also means nothing.
176×144 is simply one of the standard video image sizes for the 3GP video format.
It indicates NOTHING about what kind of device might have taken the video.
The video files that can be downloaded from the Arizona Forestry site are actually MP4 files but this is the result of a ‘conversion’ as they were prepared for a YouTube upload.
The fact that the ‘image size’ is 176×144 actually indicates that the ORIGINALS ( wherever they are ) were probably shot using the 3GP video format… but it still tells you NOTHING about what device might have taken the videos.
OR… are you actually trying to say that YOU have ‘original copies’ of these videos, and they DO still have enough ‘device information’ in the metadata to support your ‘statement of fact’ that you just made about what kind of device took the videos?
If that is the case… then show us the actual DEVICE information ( and also, please tell us how it is that YOU seem to have ‘original copies’ of these videos with all the original metadata onboard ).
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> The truth is that they weren’t sliced. They were that length to begin with.
See above. If you have PROOF of what you are saying… then show it.
You actually *might* be right, Elizabeth.
There MUST be an explanation for why 3 separate videos are pretty much exactly the same length, down to some hundredths of second. That is not possible to achieve with the human hand on a shutter button…
But until we know what device was actually used, and what its actual capabilities were… then there is still the possibility the equal lengths are simply the result of someone ‘cropping’ the original material to a specific length using software.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> Hope this helps.
As usual ( from you )… it does NOT. Insufficient data.
I totally fundamentally absolutely agree with what you are saying here.
I seriously believe our counselor has no evidence to support her claims.
I think it should ALSO be pointed out ( to everyone ) that UNLESS there is actually enough independent EXIF metadata embedded in a piece of video so that you CAN independently confirm what DEVICE shot the video…
…then you are NEVER looking at an ORIGINAL copy of the video.
NONE of the material just released by US Forestry / AZF is ‘original evidence’.
Anyone who still has an FOIA request pending for this same material should insist on getting ‘original copies’ that STILL have ALL of the original EXIF metadata in them.
Agree.
I can also agree as I know the original is still in the hands of its owner. He released a copy to the FS.
If in fact the head Cam was owned by him he has sole rights to the Video and the FS can only get a copy under a request. The full original has always been out there. At this time he is still under a gag order as a FS Employee.
Copy that… but I should have CLARIFIED something.
When I say ‘original copy’… I was not referring to the ACTUAL ‘original footage’ as it resides in the owner’s possesion.
In the digital world.. an ‘original copy’ simply means a ‘byte for byte’ copy of the original… including all the metadata that might be present in that electronic file.
When a video ( or a photo ) is EDITED or CONVERTED… that is when that ‘original metadata’ can be lost ( or even purposely removed from the ‘new’ copy being created ).
That’s what was released on Saturday by AZF.
They are not ‘original copies’ of the material.
They are ALTERED ‘copies’ with pretty much ALL of the original metadata removed.
I was not suggesting that anyone with an outstanding FOIA insist on seeing the ACTUAL ‘originals’.
What I think they should insist on receiving are TRUE ‘original copies’ that are byte-for-byte identical to the actual ‘original footage’… and still have all the ‘original metadata’ in them.
I think this is a very unfair response to what I wrote.
When I wrote that response, it was based on the actual TRUTH that the videos were released as HelmetCam videos.
Given the fact that the videos have no camera metadata attached to them, I had no reason to believe that was not true when I wrote that comment.
That’s why I said that the videos are not cellphone videos.
You were stating that you KNEW that the videos were taken, not only with a cellphone, but with an older flip-phone version of one, because that’s what, apparently, to you, everybody uses.
Which I challenged, based on my extensive observations, over the past eleven months, of the videos made public from this fire. So far as I’ve seen, no metadata supports your claim.
There was no evidence out there in the public realm, at the time I wrote my comment, that supports your certainty that the videos were taken with a cellphone.
The videos have no camera metadata. Unless you have those videos in a format that includes that metadata, you have no evidence that they were taken with a cellphone, much less the kind of cellphone you insist firefighters are using.
It was only AFTER I wrote what I wrote that WTKTT hypothesized that the first three videos, in his opinion, were taken with a cellphone, not the headcam. Is that what you seem to now be using as the basis of your statement that “The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind).
There is no camera metadata EVIDENCE (unless you have something we don’t have), at this point (as WTKTT has stated in this thread) of exactly what camera was used for ANY of these newly released videos. Except for the file formats in which the videos were captured/published–which indicates up-to-date cameras/cellphones.
Except that there’s a preponderance of overall evidence that the cellphone-taken videos taken on this fire were, indeed, shot with basically up-to-date cellphones and not the older-version flip-phones you insist are being used.
Did you just attempt to use WTKTT’s post to discredit what I wrote??
I think one of the more interesting questions here is not even what DEVICE might have been used to shoot those first 3 videos released by US Forestry ( and published by AZF )… but what the heck are they doing in the release in the first place?
Seriously.
WHAT are these 3 videos doing in that release package?
If this ‘end run’ that Arizona Forestry just pulled off was actually meant to be some kind of bullshit ‘fulfillment’ of the original FOIA request the InvestigativeMEDIA made directly to the Prescott National Forest…
…then does that mean these first 3 videos were ‘included’ in the release because they WERE shot by someone who works for PNF… but it wasn’t Aaron Hulburd?
There is so much that still hasn’t been explained about this new ‘evidence dump’ that took place on Saturday that I just want to type more long strings of four letter words.
WHY are these the ONLY ‘video clips’ that were just released?
Does the US Forestry Service actually think they just successfully ‘responded’ to a valid FOIA request originally sent to the Prescott National Forest… when the agency that initiated that request has still not received a response?
Bzzzzt…. sorry… thanks for playing our little game but you chose the wrong door.
Until the US Forestry service responds directly to the original entity that initiated the FOIA request… that FOIA request has NOT been fulfilled.
AND… it really is ( legally ) supposed to contain a document that explains the material AND what ‘exemption’ clauses of FOIA are being claimed for ANY ‘redactions’. applied to the material.
If I were a committed “conspiracy theorist” I would be thinking, at this point, that this whole release is, actually, DESIGNED to generate more CONFUSION than ENLIGHTENMENT.
Oh wait……….. [inserts a line of four-letter words] Smoky Bear wouldn’t do THAT, would he?
Not Smokey just the new people that never knew him and now run the Government Wild Lands. Even a cartoon bear has more class……
Calvin asked a useful question about video M2U00267, noting that B33 stated in this video with respect to GM that “it sounds like they were working, umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to ya.” Calvin’s question was “Who gave B33 the information that he is reporting?” My response to Calvin included the statement that “B33 HEARD Eric Marsh say where they were and where they were going.”
This has been my position for months, and the videos that JD is only now getting access to seem to support my position. We have no reason to believe that B33 actually SAW GM anywhere. B33’s SAIT interview seems to make that point pretty clear. In order for B33 to have said what they did about where GM likely was and the fact that GM was “headed downhill,” B33 – just like Eric Tarr of Ranger 58 – had to have HEARD Eric Marsh or GM disclose what they were doing. Bob and Fred want to try to say that somehow B33 saw GM out there up at the lunch spot, but my suggestion to them is that they go back and re-read the B33 SAIT interview.
I am hammering on this point because Fred (and, to some degree, Bob) has repeatedly tried to suggest (or maintain outright) that GM/Marsh were trying to HIDE what they were doing in the last half hour or so before they died, but I, personally, think that it is in bad form to smear the deceased BEFORE you have the verifiable information that allows you to do so. And, while Fred and his various alter-egos on this website and elsewhere have TRIED to repeatedly claim that Marsh/GM were deliberately being unclear or vague in order to hide what they were doing, it appears that Calvin and hopefully others are starting to see that there is not really a whole lot of support for that. Indeed, the “support,” such as it is, points in exactly the opposite direction.
The evidence is increasingly making clear exactly what I have said all along – GM/Marsh were NOT hiding what they were doing. They, in the context of radio communications that were becoming increasingly overlapping or congested, DISCLOSED what they were doing and where they were going.
Really ????? where is your verifiable information??????
There is still no new evidence to suggest Marsh told B33 where he was going or how he was going to get there.
I do not believe I ever said they were hiding what they were doing.
Marsh was never specific about moving or where to.
I see and hear nothing in this Video to indicate otherwise,
A simple statement of are you on the SE corner of the Fire With the rate of spread where the hell would that be. OR were they near the last place they were known to be Near there brake spot which was also on the SE corner of the old burn.
You keep saying B33 didn’t see them but his own statement at 1610 states on the radio he could see the crew but they did not look comfortable where they were he was then talking with the IC The rest of the statements by Marsh were non committal.
There is nothing else to say I am tired of telling you the same thing over and over.
Show Me your evidence__________
Bob, you reference B33’s alleged “own statement at 1610 states on the radio he could see the crew but they did not look comfortable where they were he was then talking with the ICT,” but that statement was NEVER made by B33’s John Burfiend. It just wasn’t, and, if you doubt me, consider asking John himself. Surely you know him? He’s been around for quite some time.
Sorry, but there was no 1610 statement by John Burfiend stating that “they did not look comfortable.”
While I appreciate that some anonymous person on the internet – WTKTT – says that the statement or a similar one was made, that doesn’t make such a thing actually true. Perhaps you remember when WTKTT claimed to be hearing Willis mutter something very specific at one of the first press conferences, and Rocksteady had to swoop in and correct WTKTT and WTKTT’s precision ears? I mean, crap, Rocksteady has been working outside around noisy stuff all his life, such that you’d think he has a bit of bum hearing at this point, but even his ears were good enough to correct WTKTT’s listening skills. No offense to WTKTT, of course. His skills, in my view, lie in other serious areas.
B33 days division Alpha contacted him and said they were going down there escape route to their SZ. YIN
True but no further info—-
Unless we as Elizabeth Assume and add all the rest of the what they were saying. From their Rest area they could have gone several different directions ( escape Routs) all down to a SZ..
Ill be a little more precise for Elizabeth.
1. across the black back to the north down the trail the came upin the black to some Black area.
2′ Down from there rest area to a better open black area say near the Fire origin.
3. Down the 2 track off the back side and into a large SZ called desert.
4. down the 2 track all the way to the Helms Ranch
5. Down the 2 track to the Brush filled canyon which in no ones real world was a escape route–unmarked uncut no trail to the Helms Ranch.
So several choices and the IC was told and told B33 they were in the black and safe as Frisby also discussed and was told by Marsh.
And they took the worst possible choice off the fire into a brush field where no one in a plane could possibly see them.
And really truly never explained to any one exactly what they were doing
To any one including B33.
No one has ever said they were given specifics as to where the crew was or was headed NO ONE.
That’s my evidence Elizabeth.
And yes you can see 1 or more Fire Fighters from the air if they are in open areas, Ridge lines or in the black the more as in 18-20 from 2 miles away in the mountains you can spot hunters in red in open country over a mile away..
Spot on.
Reply to calvin post on November 11, 2014 at 4:06 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> B33 days division Alpha contacted him and said they
>> were going down there escape route to their SZ. YIN
I’d still love to know what Norval Tyler was telling ADOSH about the Arizona Forestry’s Dispatch Center’s ability to ‘record air traffic’. ADOSH didn’t do enough ‘followup’ in their interview with him to ascertain whether AZD really did have recordings of Air-To-Ground traffic for June 30, 2013… or NOT.
But regardless… even if that radio call actually took place ( No one else has ever reported hearing it over the popular Air-To-Ground channel )… it still didn’t tell Burfiend much at all.
There is no evidence that John Burfiend would have had any idea what Marsh was really telling him… or where this supposed ‘Safety Zone’ was or that ‘escape route’ entailed.
That simply wasn’t something Burfiend was aware of and would not have helped him know any actual ‘locations’ at all.
If Marsh really expected Burfiend to ‘do something’ with that information… it was up to Marsh to be ‘less obtuse’ and EXPLAIN exactly what he was talking about. Marsh (apparently) didn’t do that.
Serial misrepresentations by Elizabeth seem par for the course. Here’s a relevant quote from Burfiend: “They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re
comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can
be placed WITH them.”
Please stop simply throwing out misstatement after misstatement. Other than misstating the facts that are known, misstating basic physical facts, making odd statements about rates of progress through dense chaparral, we get to the repeated personal attacks and the betrayal of communications imo clearly intended to be private. Not a pretty picture.
Again, Fred, NOBODY other than WTKTT, whose hearing even Rocksteady has successfully challenged (no offense to Rocksteady, but he has long had a relatively noisy outdoor job), has claimed to have heard Burfiend say in those video clips “They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.”
Presumably nobody other than WTKTT actually hears it b/c Burfiend never said it. If you doubt me, consider just asking him directly, and you’ll get the same answer.
Trying to lump a number of identifiably different posters as one “Fred” is as impressive as the rest of your comments, Elizabeth.
Yet you aren’t denying it, Fred.
I most certainly am not “Fred,” whoever you are claiming “Fred” to be. I also have an identifiable writing style, as do all the other regular posters here. Making seemingly paranoid claims about this “Fred” is more poor form, and yet again reflective of what imo is your lack of credibility as a commenter here.
As a very close friend of Fred’s Yes Elizabeth I know your attacks and phone calls to destroy him.
So I can tell you straight out RTS/Fred is not SR or any one else on here.
I had permission to say that by the way…..
You can stop making an ASS of your self and go play on your own Blog we are all tired and disgusted with you here.
You have tried to discredit me since you cant attack me personally I am Tired of it and You are
irrelevant.
Oh, Bob. There you go attacking again. Perhaps you have not noticed that I actually do not care about your view of me, particularly now that you have made your comment about pills and alcohol. People who are paying attention know who Fred is. His “suicide” comment as the “anonymous former R-3 Hotshot Superintendent” crossed a line, and, if you don’t see that, I cannot help you. I don’t know if it was the stroke or what, but I actually do not care.
And the real Elizabeth just showed up.
HaHaHaHaHaHa
SR,
You are wasting your breath with Elizabeth. How do I know this? Because I am NOT WTKTT, as well. nuf said.
Copy.
I do not remember that incident , your honor!!!
I am not saying I did or did not, my memory is fading just about as fast as my hearing and eyesight…
I have had an extremely busy summer with fires in British Columbia and Northwest Territories, followed by numerous other more fun tasks (elk season
) that occupied my time and energy.
I rarely hop on here anymore, as it seems like a lot of the debate is a repition of other comments from months ago…
However, I am still very interested in this tragic event… I want to know why, how, WHO, that it occurred… I already know where and when…
Ah, my bad, I do now remember teh incident you speak of Elizabeth…. You must be younger, with a better memory than I…
I have never claimed that what I am hearing at the start of that VLAT SPLIT video is, word for word, what is being said…
…but I stand by every transcription I have published of it, including what SR has quoted above.
That IS what I am hearing at the start of the video… and I am ALSO absolutely sure that the ‘call sign’ that proceeds it was ‘Bravo 33’.
That would make the ‘speaker’ John Burfiend.
I have also said time and time again that the only way to verify what was happening there is for someone to re-interview the parties involved and ASK them if that really what is being said there.
Burfiend seems to have finished his statement with….
“Call them and ask them if DIVS is WITH them”.
THAT is what Bravo 33 needed to know at that moment and sure enough… just 13 seconds after Burfiend requested someone do that… someone did that exactly thing.
The very next transmission is the start of that ‘Granite Mountain… what’s your STATUS right now?” call circa 4:12 PM which then led to Marsh’s ‘obtuse’ responses and his even his eventual ‘dodge’ of the question “Are you with Granite Mountain right now?”.
Marsh never answered that direct question.
It was either because he didn’t hear the question clearly… or he was intentionally choosing to NOT reveal his actual location to whoever it was that was asking him.
Isn’t it amazing?
Here we are… more than a YEAR after the event… and after TWO full ( highly funded ) investigations… and we still don’t know for sure if some guys in an airplane actually ever performed an ‘eyes on’ visual check of Granite Mountain.
THAT is what should be jumping out at people here.
It’s a simple question.
DID Bravo 33 ever really go and actually SEE where Granite Mountain was located… or did they NOT?
The evidence ( if you believe anything the SAIT had to say ) still points in BOTH directions.
I’ve pointedly stayed out of these discussions about what’s being said on the videos when what’s being said is not clear because of audio noise, etc.
My ear is not that good.
But at this point, because of all this convo, I would to at least know what we are talking about.
Which video is this in and where in the video is it?
Marti… see a new parent comment up above that has the name of the video, and a reprint of my own transcription ( which I still would bet money is accurate ).
It needed to be a new parent comment with maximum horizontal space or the formatting or the transcript gets messy.
Got it. Thx.
Some ‘qualifiers’ for the comment above.
I actually butchered the King’s English a little up there.
I said…
>> I have never claimed that what I am hearing at the
>> start of that VLAT SPLIT video is, word for word,
>> what is being said…
Butchered the King’s English there.
I certainly stand by my own transcripts… but I realize that is not going to be ‘word for word’ what someone ELSE might think THEY are hearing. Once again… YOUR mileage may vary.
>> I also said…
>>
>> That IS what I am hearing at the start of the video… and
>> I am ALSO absolutely sure that the ‘call sign’ that
>> proceeds it was ‘Bravo 33′.
The call sign I believe is ACTUALLY heard in the audio itself is ‘ASM2’. ASM2 was ‘Bravo 33’ that day.
Using the canard of “too sensitive” as a justification for redactions is dishonest. Outside of video of the deployment site itself with their bodies present (which will never be shown), that excuse does not fly. We already crossed the bridge of “too sensitive” when we heard their voices calling for help when that video was released in December (and I know that was tough). Nothing else released now is going to be more sensitive than that. The only thing that is “too sensitive” now (for some people) is the truth. It is time for this piecemeal drip-drip-drip of information to end. These agencies that are playing fast and loose with FOI requests need to be slapped down hard.
Agree. I think that also, at this point, applies to the “privacy” justification.
You say, “These agencies that are playing fast and loose with FOI requests need to be slapped down hard.”
I’m wondering who, at this point, has the authority/jurisdiction/responsibility to do that slap down.
When a federal agency obstructs a state OSH investigation, what kind of precedents apply?
Can this kind of thing trigger an OSHA investigation or something like that?
I just don’t know the legalities/precedents/whatever for this kind of thing.
I suppose another agency could get involved – seems unlikely. But if someone is not compliant with FOI requests, I assume the recourse would be to go to court. When someone is violating the law, that is your recourse. Time-consuming, yes. But these agencies should not be allowed to thumb their noses at the public.
M2U00264 (1minute 40 seconds)
(unidentified speaker)Can we/ Do we have a couple of engines holding in place at the BSR?
(Second speaker Cordis?) I’ll send one that way
1. Is that what you all hear?
2. Who is speaking?
3. Do I hear the name Eric is the background (non radio) traffic just before the “i’ll send one that way”?
Calvin, I don’t hear it, but that’s not saying much.
(You know how I feel about audios…. 
) Sorry I can’t be useful here.
Marti… see a new parent comment up above about this.
Yes… that appears to be what is being said… but there is MORE.
The conversation is between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and Task Force 2 Leader ( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel.
Cordes is telling Esquibel to make SURE at least one engine is sent over to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to tell that Engine to be sure and ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to arrive there and to be sure they ‘get out’ safely.
I will comment 1 more time.
I said on the 18th of October that this video was out there and being reviewed soon to be released.
Again last Monday the 3rd I told you the video would be released in the next few days.
Bingo Oct. 7th the video is released. I got the information if certain people want to call them rumors
fine not important I was right and the rest of the information will also come out sooner or later.
Thanks to those that believed me I do have reliable sources that I trust.
I, for one, still hope your sources are right about the video which contains all/part of that ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself says was officially ‘alleged’ ( by mulitiple witnesses ).
That would be an important addition to the body of evidence that Arizona Foresty and the US Forest Service just blantanly proved they have always been ‘withholding’.
As of Saturday morning… there is now no question they have ALWAYS been withholding information in their possession from families of the men that died AND from the very people charged ( by law ) with investigating that entire Yarnell incident.
If Aaron Hulburd did not have the GM intra-crew frequency… and a video DOES exist which captures all/part of the alleged ‘argument’… then it really must be from either Brendan McDonough OR any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were tasked with moving all FOUR of the GM vehicles that day.
Bob,
It’s always been clear that, not only are you personally incredibly experienced and credible, but that you’re still actively linked in to people with valuable information as well. And, in the valuable position that, since you are retired, you can speak your mind.
It’s unfortunate that someone seems to be trying to cause more confusion by contesting that.
I do think it is very interesting that unofficial reports, pre-release, of what was in these videos may in some cases have differed from the videos that were, in fact, released. That’s interesting primarily because the info you have shared has been so on-target over time that I really do feel there is more information that hasn’t yet come out publicly.
I have been told there is more to these videos just released than we have seen and
others including family members have seen the entire Video not in little sections.
As with the BR statements the Video was redacted and there is where the Radio information lies. Will it see the light of day? Only if the media keeps pushing.
The other recording is in the hands of a family member. Will they release it or is it in the files of a Lawyer for the law suit that I do not know. The written evidence that supports the above is in the written redactions. We need to see those?????
Mr Powers. Thanks for your many contributions to this ongoing discussion.
As you say above “others including family members have seen the entire Video not in little sections”
I asked last night about the comment made by B33 stating “it sounds like they were working umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to you” (M2U00267)
Their is confusion as to whether B33 actually saw GM or not. But the statement above implies that B33 is passing on intel that he has HEARD and not SEEN. Does that make sense? And I know that we have discussed this issue many times, but these newest videos have new audio and we can hear for ourselves the conversations that were being recorded. But only partially. I wonder what other comments were recorded (and edited) that might explain why B33 was passing on information that was communicated to him. Who told him that intel?
Calvin… good point. Interesting phrasing there on Burfiend’s part. ‘Sounds like’ is not the same as ‘I saw them’.
It is still unbelievable after two official investigations we would still have to wonder whether Bravo 33 really did do an actual ‘eyes on’ visual check on Granite Mountain in the crucial 4:10 to 4:16 PM timeframe… but I’m afraid that’s the case.
No one involved with either investigation seemed to be able to ever clarify even this one simple but VERY important point.
There is still more ‘discovery’ that has yet to take place on this point.
I still think someone needs to have another interview with Burfiend and actually ask him ALL of the right questions this time.
Calvin we need more study here I still believe that B33 was passing on what he knew from 40 min. or so earlier he did ask if they were on the SE side of the fire when they were preparing to deploy and Marsh answered affirmative. Again I caution that at 1600 they were also on the SE corner of the fire line, so they had moved basically south almost a mile and were in brush at a new location and the fire had reached that location which again would be on the SE corner of the new fire line. So a lot of interpolation here and that same SE corner was moving fast and past the Helms Ranch. That corner ended up at least 3/4 of a mile from the Deployment site.
So I don’t know what B33 was understanding the old location he saw them at, or near Helms Ranch which was also a raging inferno at that time Was B33 referring to where he last saw them???
Lack of spending time to get more info during the statement process.
The John Burfiend statement under discussion in one of the Hulburd Helmet-Cam video clips came AFTER the 1639 MAYDAY sequence.
Mr. Powers… you are absolutely correct.
This was AFTER Eric Marsh had ‘Affirmed’ to John Burfiend that they were, at that moment, on the SOUTH side of the fire.
If John Burfiend was, in any way ( whether through radio como or a visual sighting at ANY time that day ) aware of where the ‘anchor point’ was and where GM had been working…
…then to suddenly be faced with a verbal ‘Affirmation’ from Marsh that they were on the SOUTH side of the fire as it was at 1639… just about anyone with those two pieces of information in their head ( where he was BEFORE and where he was NOW ) would probably use the same words we now hear John Burfiend using as his ‘best guess’ about where they were.
That includes assuming that in order to get from where they WERE… to where they just ‘affirmed’ they were at 1639… then that had to involve some kind of DOWNHILL travel segment.
That’s all Burfiend was doing in the video clip in question.
He was giving his ‘best guess’ as to their actual location.
It is STILL very important to KNOW ( for sure and certain ) whether Bravo 33 ever actually went and did an ‘eyes on’ VISUAL check on Granite Mountain circa 4:10 to 4:16 PM.
The SAIR would still have us believe that they OFFERED to go do that… but OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and said it wasn’t necessary because he was SURE they were ‘in the black’.
The Air-To-Air channel radio captures indicates something else.
The Air-To-Air captures indicate that they DID go and perform this ‘eyes on’ check, regardless of whether OPS1 Todd Abel ever said what the SAIR says, or not.
Elizabeth,
You’ve been told multiple times that you should get some practical exposure to some basic physical facts before trying to engage, at this point. This statement to Bob Powers, “So tell me, Bob, when, exactly, after 4:00 p.m. would B33 have SEEN GM on the fire, given that we know exactly where B33 was (from the Air Study videos) during the relevant time frames, and given that you SURELY know how hard it is to randomly see someone from the air, particularly when you are a mile or more away at the OTHER end of the fire at the time that you are allegedly seeing that other person or their crew far far far away from you (as you are in the air)?” is a classic example.
Have you ever even been outdoors in the southwest? Given where GM was before they dropped into the bowl, seeing them from the air would have been easy enough. Even when people are not exposed along a point of prominence, you can watch them through clear air at even greater distances, particularly if there is any movement.
Unfortunately, until you get a handle on some of this, it is so difficult to separate these basic mistakes from any valid observations that you might occasionally make that your posts overall do nothing but create confusion.
They wear YELLOW a crew of 18 to 20 in the black or in a line on a ridge would stand out like a big flag from 2miles away. Just saying,,,,,,,
To me, this ties into the visual foreshortening and progress through chaparral points. Time spent in the physical environment makes some of these things obvious.
Before some of you load up onto the conspiracy and “deliberate withholding” bus, perhaps you should check your facts. Remember that the FAMILIES of the DECEASED read this website, and they, for better or for worse, actually BELIEVE what you folks say, so I urge some of you to do better research before you assert things as fact or deem things as somehow evidence of withholding, missteps, gamesmanship, etc.
Here is one good example: WTKTT with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY declared [inaccurately] below: “With regards to the continuing job of figuring out how badly REDACTED all these ‘new videos’ might be… I just noticed something REALLY odd about the first 3 videos which show the ‘burnout’ operation taking place on what appears to be Model Creek Road. ALL of these videos are pretty much the EXACT SAME LENGTH…. They are all basically not only EXACTLY 29 seconds long… They are all basically EXACTLY 29.80 seconds long. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for this to have been achieved by human hands holding down shutter buttons on any digitial camera or smartphone. It definitely represents someone EDITING video clips and almost DECIDING that each of the final EDITED clips would be exactly 29.80 seconds.”
WTKTT declared ABSOLUTELY, as ABSOLUTE FACT, that the fact that all three of the first-listed newer-ish videos showing some burning operations on the NORTH end of the fire “definitely represent[s] someone EDiTING” the video clips because those clips are all exactly the same length of roughly 30 seconds (29.8 seconds).
WTKTT did not qualify what he said – he stated unequivocally that it “definitely” represents someone “EDITING” those video clips.
Well, here is the ACTUAL truth, contrary to WTKTT’s unequivocal assertions and that WTKTT could have figured out himself/herself with some quick research had he been interested in the truth as opposed to emotional statements alleging misdeeds or undisclosed, material shenanigans: Many of the WFFs who have government-funded or government-provided cell phones only have the basic, old-school “flip-open” cell phones (because that is all that the government will pay for). Some models of those flip-open cell phones can ONLY take videos up to 30 seconds (29.8 seconds, actually) in length. So, if you are taking a video with one of those cell phones, it is going to BEEP and stop recording automatically when the video you are taking hits 30 seconds (which apparently is actually only 29.8 seconds). Then you have to start filming a NEW video of yet another 29.8 seconds in length.
Nobody EDITED the length of those three videos, WTKTT. That was the LONGEST video that particular cell-phone camera could TAKE.
And now I have wasted 15 minutes of my life that I could have instead spent responding to those of you who want a citation to the video showing Paul Musser (rather than just looking at the videos and finding Paul Musser yourself)….. Sigh…. way to utilize my skill set.
>> Nobody EDITED the length of those three videos,
>> WTKTT. That was the LONGEST video
>> that particular cell-phone camera could TAKE.
So… now YOU are saying that YOU know for ABSOLUTE FACT that is the explanation for why 3 separate videos are exactly 29.8 seconds in length?
Show me your proof.
WHO was the firefighter taking those three videos?
WHAT was the exact make and model of the ‘candy-bar’ phone YOU now assert ( as ABSOLUTE FACT ) that he was using?
Got a news flash for ya, counselor.
The older candy-bar phones you are talking about would normally NOT use the file naming convention that is represented by these 3 videos.
That’s a MODERN convention with the ‘better’ phones that are capable of taking/storing videos of ANY length.
Also we are being told these videos are all from the Helmet Cam not a mix and match of Helmet cam and Cell phones. They all came from the same camera….
Exactly. See what I wrote just below.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 11, 2014 at 8:23 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also we are being told these videos are all from the Helmet Cam
>> not a mix and match of Helmet cam and Cell phones. They all
>> came from the same camera….
Actually… DESPITE what ‘we are being told’… I think it’s pretty obvious that those first 3 videos ( all magically 29.8 seconds long ) of that ‘burnout’ operation ( supposedly on Model Creek Road but not verified yet ) were NOT taken by Aaron Hulburd or his Helmet Camera.
I believe Hulburd’s edited footage begins with the filenames that are prefixed with ‘MU’.
That being said… I also do NOT believe these first 3 videos with the ‘20130630xxx’ filenames were taken with a ‘candy-bar’ phone.
The resolution ( and audio ) is too good for a ‘candy-bar’ phone and I believe that file naming convention proves it was a more MODERN type of video-capable phone and/or digital camera.
Once again… we have ‘insufficient data’ from the very people who have been withholding all this information for so long now.
We still don’t even know the make/model of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera. We are still being ‘kept in the dark and fed mushrooms’.
Fortunately… we know how to find mushrooms pretty damn good.
Interesting why did they not say that? Two or more separate recordings????
Interesting catch.
Thanks!
As you watch the videos I am seeing a difference in the Head Cam,
I think it went to a hand held un mounted from the helmet at or before they got into the UTVs same camera just not on the helmet. Am I right?
Probably.
There are moments in some of these videos where it even looks like Hulburd took his Helmet OFF and was holding it in various positions WHILE the camera was still running.
At the END of that original 7 minute and 49 second Helmet-Cam video that had the MAYDAY radio call captures in it… Hulburd does, in fact, take his helmet off and places it on top of his truck while he was reaching into the back seat of his truck for another radio. He is responding to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s recorded ‘request’ there to fire up another handheld to be sure they capture all the radio traffic they can.
That 7 minute and 49 second video ENDS with what appears to be Hulburd reaching up to turn his Helmet Camera OFF.
The newly released videos appear to prove that is NOT what happened.
It now appears that Hulburd did NOT reach up to the roof of his truck to turn the camera OFF… he was reaching up to get the helmet and just put it BACK on his head ( with the camera still running and never turning off ).
One of the newly released videos actually STARTS with Hulburd now walking AWAY from his truck and then following KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell west on Shrine Road just moments after that other MAYDAY video ends.
But there is some footage ( and some radio traffic? ) ‘edited out’ at that point.
Unless Hulburd turned his Helmet-Camera OFF as he put it back on his head and started following Yowell to the west… and then turned it back ON again about 20-30 seconds later…
…then there are at least 20-30 seconds of active video ( and radio captures ) ‘cut out’ of the released footage just at that point alone.
>> Remember that the FAMILIES of the DECEASED read this website,
Of course they do. ( and I would HOPE so ).
Before you launch into your daily didactics you seem addicted to… remember that you can pretty much forget anything else that has happened so far with regards to us establishing how much evidence is being withheld as we have been having this discussion.
On Saturday morning ( November 7, 2014 ), the US Forestry Service and Arizona Forestry just proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that every suspicion that anyone has ever had about evidence being ‘withheld’ ( family members included )… is TRUE.
The ‘family members’ don’t need US or this discussion to prove that information is ( and always has been ) being withheld from them AND the people that were charged ( by law ) to investigate why their loved ones died.
Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service just proved that all by themselves.
Sorry, counselor, hate to ruin your day after you just “wasted” your precious 15 minutes schooling us about the “ACTUAL truth,” after wasting a lot of OUR time yesterday.
You seems to have forgotten one very important ACTUAL truth.
These videos were not taken with a cellphone.
Try doing YOUR OWN “quick research.”
Furthermore, just to let you on to another little ACTUAL truth.
ALL of the videos I have bothered to take the time to download (which is most of them taken on this fire) were taken with iphones–either generation 4 or 5–or up-to date samsungs, except for the ones taken with a Go-Pro (which these by Aaron may have also been filmed with, but the one actual video actually published last spring had no camera metadata attached to it), a fairly expensive camera.
I have never seen a video taken with the ancient flip-phones you are so certain those poor fire-fighters use.
That’s an ACTUAL truth.
Correction.
All the cellphone videos………
A number of other videos were taken with various cameras, also.
I’m going to post something here up at the top that I posted a bit down below as part of a convo I was having with WTKTT about what in the world is going on right now regarding the release of these videos and what that says about the game being played by the USFS and Arizona Department of Forestry vs the rest of us.
At 1:55 this morning I wrote:
Good thinking.
I’m not sure how to write what I’m about to write.
I keep trying to reference some other comparable fatality fire situation.
Wherein the USFS was connected to a fatality fire that somebody else was in charge of.
The Steep Corner Fire and the Esperanza Fire come to mind. But on those fires USFS employees were killed.
This is the only fire I know of where “non-USFS employees” (even tho they were a federally certified national resource IHC) were killed, while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved.
In the Steep Corner Fire, I don’t think the USFS would have uttered a peep if it hadn’t been the case that an IHC superintendent raised a big complaint about the conditions on the fire and very loudly refused to accept their assignment to it.
In the Esperanza Fire, at first the USFS went along with the wink-wink-nod-nod “joint” investigation that basically blamed the USFS crew for their deaths until the public outcry was so great that they went back and did their own investigation of the CAL-Fire-managed fire. Which leads me to this.
[And now that I’m reposting this, I’m remembering South Canyon/Storm King was a fire “managed” by Nobody-Knew-Who–was it a Smokejumper or the BLM? And THAT was a bone of contention in the Investigation(s)]
As I have periodically posted/ranted, I think the dirty little secret in all of this has to do with the decision BY SOMEONE, late in the evening of June 29, 2013 to, after NONE OF THE REQUIRED ANALYSES WERE DONE, order a SHORT Type 2 Incident Management Team when it should have been apparent that this fire had the capability of getting really big and really nasty the next day.
Thus setting in motion a June 30 day of CHAOS in which the fire overpowered the IMT and everyone fighting it by MILES, and it’s a complete MIRACLE that more people were not maimed or killed.
I think that’s what AZForestry and USFS don’t want anybody to see.
This fire is an indictment against all the comfortable higher-ups in Phoenix who made that decision and left a WHOLE LOT of people on the ground in Yarnell to suffer/deal with the consequences themselves.
Including the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yes, it appears Granite Mountain made a fatal decision. [As have other crews on other fires.]
But I do believe, given their prior relatively stellar performances on previous fires, if the Yarnell Hill Fire had been properly managed by a team resourced properly enough to manage it, using strategies and tactics properly designed to do so, Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there to hang themselves without anybody even knowing where they were and what they were doing.
That’s what I think is being PROTECTED.
And, now that I think about it, when I say “while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved,” I think that includes Mike Dudley, the USFS employee/investigator of the Interagency Serious Accident Investigation Team.
So, I also think that, not only AZ Forestry’s negligent decision to resource the fire with an insufficient SHORT Type 2 team is being PROTECTED by all these USFS/AZF fusterclucking dances, so is the SAIT investigation–i.e Mike Dudley.
Perfectly possible.
People tend to forget that above and beyond the loss of life that weekend… literally HUNDREDS of people have filed very expensive lawsuits for DAMAGES as a result of everything that happened.
In other words… Arizona Forestry has ALWAYS had more to worry about than the fact that 19 firefighters died in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
They very well could be found responsible for all that property damage and have to pay every dollar being requested.
That’s a shitload of money.
Even if a judge decides that the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits cannot legally proceed… that still leaves all the property damage lawsuits to contend with.
We are still talking about millions and millions of dollars that might have to be paid out because of the ineptness of Arizona Forestry.
With regards to the continuing job of figuring out how badly REDACTED all these ‘new videos’ might be… I just noticed something REALLY odd about the first 3 videos which show the ‘burnout’ operation taking place on what appears to be Model Creek Road.
ALL of these videos are pretty much the EXACT SAME LENGTH.
I mean… the first two are within 1/100th of second of each other and
the third one is only ( at most ) 1/10 of a second off either of the first two.
They are all basically not only EXACTLY 29 seconds long…
They are all basically EXACTLY 29.80 seconds long.
It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for this to have been achieved by human hands
holding down shutter buttons on any digitial camera or smartphone.
It definitely represents someone EDITING video clips and almost DECIDING
that each of the final EDITED clips would be exactly 29.80 seconds.
The proof is in the EXIF metadata contained within each of these ‘videos’.
Video 0630131532
EXIF Duration: 29.81
EXIF Track duration: 29.80
Video 0630131533
EXIF Duration: 29.88
EXIF Track Duration: 29.87
Video 0630131534
EXIF Duration: 29.74
EXIF Track Duration: 29.73
More about these videos later…
Some of these redactions are appropriate (i.e. footage of the bodies), but most are not. Right now the media is giving them a pass on the redactions, characterizing them as being of the first type. No way the redaction at the end of 264 (which presumably leads into the previously released 265) falls into the first category. Their behavior with this material leads to the inescapable conclusion there is explosive material here. Every effort should be made to ensure that virtually the entire video (minus the part with the bodies) sees the light of day.
For Fred and others:
Your comments about the REDACTIONS of the videos goes back to what I have tried to explain to all of you (to much snark from a few of you, I might add). Allow me to try again: John Dougherty claims that he shook the relatively newish videos loose from the USFS via a FOIA request that JD made to which the USFS has now responded. If that is honestly true, then JD should have received FROM the USFS when he received HIS copies of those videos on a CD directly FROM the USFS a letter FROM the USFS *TO* JD explaining every single one of those redactions in detail. That letter will explain what the USFS withheld from JD and WHY.
You threw that against the wall yesterday and it didn’t stick.
John Dougherty has already said his original FOIA request has NOT YET been fulfilled in any way.
Can’t you READ?
You might also note Fred has not entered the conversation here as of this morning so one of you is masquerading as FRED???????
I know better…………..
I am Spartacus! (Sorry, couldn’t help myself…)
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 10, 2014 at 7:11 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that ran out of room.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Just went thru the news release you posted
>> The last paragraph by the Lawyer is a little telling as it says the
>> Families did not view or were contacted by the state of the release.
That news release ( the USATODAY article ) is here…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
The relevant part from the thread below is…
From the article…
——————————————-
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
Families were concerned that the videos might show the bodies of their loved ones at the deployment site. They have asked that no such footage or photographs be made public. But they were torn, too, because the videos and accompanying audio also might give them new information.
——————————————-
This article from a reputable news source states, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were INFORMED that these videos were going to go public WEEKS before it happened.
That ( and the paragraph that follows ) automatically implies that the families were also told WHAT was going to be released… and WHAT it might contain.
This all (apparently) happened WEEKS ago.
There is also THIS in the USATODAY article…
“Families were concerned that the videos might show the bodies of their loved ones at the deployment site.”
Of course they were. Totally understandable… and it seems those concerns WERE met with all the ‘redactions’ in the released material…
…but how in the hell did USATODAY know this to even be making such a statement?
They don’t ‘source’ that statement at all.
Is this something that J.P. Vicente himself told USATODAY?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> But what are all these statements from family members stating they
>> saw the Videos in there homes. It had to be a early showing that they
>> saw and were not told it would be released.
>>
>> How did they get the Videos to there homes and when?????
>>
>> The State had no time to contact and review the Videos with
>> Families spread all over the place much less Lawyers.
>>
>> Yet we are hearing the family members reviewed the Videos.
>>
>> Something don’t fit here at all…………….
Even the USATODAY article doesn’t make it clear what really happened here.
Someone needs to do a followup interview with this J.P. Vicente guy and get the ‘real’ story on what HE knew, and WHEN, and HOW he knew it… and then what he did after that.
Example: Is it possible this J.P. Vicente guy only told SOME of the family members… and ( hence ) the confusion on the part of the lawyers for SOME of the family members?
Is it conceivable that even the fire community has drawn a ‘line in the sand’ in their own confused minds and this J.P. Vicente guy ONLY informed families that have NOT retained a lawyer?
Something is definitely ‘fishy’ here….
…and someone needs to break out the tackle box and GO FISHING.
Remember, in all of this, the USA Today is nothing more than a repost of the AZ Central article.
Therefore, see below what I wrote about that AZ Central article, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, and their investigation.
Marti… yes… you are right.
Somehow, yesterday, I thought the additional information regarding J.P. Vicente ‘warning’ the families was only in the USATODAY article but that same information is, in fact, in the original AZCENTRAL article.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
It also says ( at the bottom ) that there were two other ‘contributing reporters’ to this story. Maybe one of these ‘contributors’ was the one that actually interviewed this J.P. Vicente guy…
“Republic reporters Weldon B. Johnson and Richard Ruelas contributed to this story.”
Exactly.
And so the questions you are asking aren’t how did USA Today get the info about the Prescott Captain warning them, and them (or some of them) knowing what, in fact he was talking about (i.e. implying they had seen the videos) and thus being concerned about that stuff going public,
but
how did AZCentral gain all that info
and what else did they know
and who, from AZCentral knew what and when did they know it and how did they find it out
and how/when did they interview the families
and how many families, etc, knew how much and how many didn’t know whatever
and how important do they (AZCentral) think all of this is
and how much of all of this is Yvonne Wingett Sanchez’ work and how much of it is somebody else’s work
and wtf is going on with this whole thing and who knows about it and how is it that they know??
Is that a pretty good compendium of the questions this thing raises in your opinion, WTKTT?
I think it sounds pretty good.
Oh yes and who in the world is “this J.P. Vicente guy…” and just
WHAT???????????????????????????????
I’m having to carefully translate what I’m actually thinking into words that are fit for public consumption and won’t get me booted off this website.
Marti… I know exactly what you mean.
I think ( for myself, anyway ), my urge to end any new postings regarding this new ‘evidence’ dump with strings of four letter words really boils down to this.
On Saturdady… Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service just proved beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that they have ALWAYS been ( and still ARE ) withholding crucial evidence they have in their possession related to everthing that happened in Yarnell that weekend.
They are withholding this information from both the faimiles of the poor men who died…AND have ALWAYS been withholding it from the people who were charged ( by law ) to investigate this incident.
Here comes that urge to just start typing four letter words again. Gotta go.
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> Is that a pretty good compendium of the questions this
>> thing raises in your opinion, WTKTT?
Yep…. but after a long day of looking hard at this new evidence, dealing with people suddenly posting here again who seem to be off their medication, and discovering that no statement could be more descriptinve than…
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”…
…all I have left to say for today is…
shi49skda8$$!!#49gjh239##!!$%ksjhshi4059fuk3938010gdshi#
I think we’re on the same page.
See above.
This is definitely not what I had planned for this day.
And tomorrow I really need to do what I have planned for it.
When I sinned off went to the cabinet and had a couple of pills
BV & 7 and went to bed in a good mood this morning
Hopefully not answering attacks on my credibility,
WTKTT and Marti you put a lot of good input to the screen last night …………….THANKS
Good Morning!
It was so much fun waking up to our “Very Concerned Schoolteacher” putting her foot back into it!
Here’s another question I’m throwing out there, just in case somebody else may now know the answer.
I’m totally into doing my own homework if somebody else hasn’t already done it.
In the AZ Central article there is this:
“Roxanne Warneke, whose husband, Billy Warneke, was one of the 19 men killed, watched the videos in her Marana home. For her, there still are questions. Would the redacted portions have provided those answers?
In one of the video clips, just 29 seconds long, a man says, ‘I don’t have anybody else that I feel comfortable sending that way.’
Warneke says that sounds as if someone had specifically sent the Granite Mountain crew into the area where they were trapped and killed.”
Does anybody know which video this refers to?
And, PS
I don’t remember how to download a Youtube video.
Can anybody refresh my memory on that?
http://www.clipconverter.cc/
Works like a champ.
Thanks!
When you use clipconverter to download, do you use a particular setting or do you stay with the default setting?
I normally stick with the defaults… including the default ‘image quality’ panel that appears with various radio buttons for selection the SIZE of the download.
So it really is just…
Paste a valid YouTube video link into the “Media URL to Download’ box.
Click ‘Continue’ to the right of that input box.
On next panel… accept defaults just press the START button on the bottom left.
Video download prepares.
On Next Panel… ‘Download’ button appears.
Before you click ‘Download’… UNCHECK the little checkbox under the download button that says “Download with accellerator and get recommendation offers’
That is worthless and NOT NEEDED. It just complicates things.
So uncheck that box, then click download… and in a moment that standard “Where do want to save this on your computer?’ Dialog box appears. Pick a local DIR… and away you go.
Marti… it’s the FIRST video in the set of 21 new videos released.
Video 0630131533
Duration: 29 seconds
The quote comes at the very end and he says exactly what Roxanne Warneke says.
Full transcript will be posted shortly.
Hold the phone… sorry.
It IS the FIRST video in the new set released… but the FILENAME
of that FIRST video is 0630131532 and not the one with ’33’ on the end.
Full transcript for Video 0630131532 is still on the way, shortly.
Thanks!
Video 0630131532
Duration: 29 seconds
Location: Model Creek Road, Peeples Valley
Time: 1532 ( 3:32 PM )
—————————————————————————
+0:01
(Unknown 1 – Sounds like Darrell Willis): ?? We’ve got a vehicle in there.
+0:05
(Unknown 2): Yea. I copy. I just had my burner up… uh…
tryin’ to get out in front of it.
+0:11
(Unknown 1 – Sounds like Darrell Willis): Okay. We stopped
right here at the top. Want me to do it again?
+0:14
(Unknown 2): No. Uh… you need to get out and do some ??.
If we get another burner in here we can ??
+0:19
(Unknown 3 – Close to camera ): Now the wind’s shifted.
+0:23
(Unknown 4 – Close to camera): Firewall.
( Some background traffic here. Hard to make out ).
+0:24
(Unknown 2 – Same voice as up above): Yea… I copy. I don’t have
anybody else I feel comfortable sending that way.
+0:29
(Unknown – Sounds like OPS2 Paul Musser): Okay
——————————————————————————
It’s hard to say here… but my best guess is that the ‘Unknown 2’ speaker at the end who says “I don’t have anybody else I feel comfortable sending that way” COULD just be a reply to the “If we can get another burner in here” suggestion made a few seconds earlier.
However… it bothers me that the final ‘Okay’ in response to this “I don’t have anbody else” statement really, really sounds like OPS2 Paul Musser.
There is also some ‘background’ como just before that statement that is basically impossible to hear.
So I suppose the “I don’t have anybody else” response COULD also have been a response to something Paul Musser just asked… and Musser responds with ‘Okay’ at the end.
Perhaps this was the beginning of Paul Musser ( it is now 3:32 PM ) ‘casting around’ that day and looking for people to help in Yarnell.
10 minutes later… at 3:42 PM… Musser would then be making his ‘availablity check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh who would then say they were still ‘committed to the ridge… but try Blue Ridge’.
Thanks!
My video “ear” is pretty bad.
OK I”m going to post this to the top.
In a downstream convo about the reporting of these videos, WTKTT wrote, “There is whole ‘nother STORY that needs to be told here about exactly how all this really went down.”
In response to that I wrote:
“Truly.
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, the main investigator/writer for the AZ Central story, which is the basis for the AP story, has done some really good research/analysis/writing on this fire and the conflicted agency pretzel power-struggle relationships related to it.
I think she’s really serious about this thing, and she’s also brilliant, and does lots of HOMEWORK.
I don’t know if she reads us. I hope she does.
SOMEBODY besides us needs to know who took those helmetcam videos and the SIGNIFICANCE of that and of what is in them.
It’s impossible to tell, in that article, WHEN the interviews were done with the family members that led to the quotes included in it.
But, apparently she had sources who clued her in on that hedzup by that Prescott Fire Dept guy.
She knew the videos existed. She’s probably the person who triggered their FOIA request.
Most of her stuff lately has been about the AZ elections. But I can imagine her hunkering down regularly to scan Yarnell stuff. I think she knows way more than she lets on to.
I HOPE she is asking questions inside her mind, and among her also-concerned pals, about what this current jockeying between USFS, SAIT, AZF, the families, the public, and JD (and via him US) is all about.
And, I think it’s important to keep in mind, in the middle of all this STUFF, the POINT of this.
People are still being HURT by these games. This fire has not even been contained, seventeen long months after it ignited.
And DOLLARS are still being spent to fight this fire, including all the DOLLARS being spent to prevent anybody knowing what actually happened.
WTF is the USFS continuing to try to HIDE?
I can understand AZF trying to hide stuff. I think they screwed up massively.
But USFS????
None of their people are on “the chopping block.” A bunch of their people are, in fact, heroes who risked their lives trying to find/rescue Granite Mountain.
All the USFS people on this fire performed admirably
WHY are they throwing their own people under the bus, jeopardizing their (and their families, loved ones, and friends) mental and emotional well-being, impeding efforts to get to the truth so that future fire-fighters can learn from this. to, what, protect AZF???????
I really truly, right now, sitting here, don’t get it.
And I really hope Yvonne doesn’t either.
It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.
Marti said “It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.”
Good luck with that. My impression is that the USDA in-house lawyers are calling the shots on that, and it will therefore never, ever, ever happen. Not in a million years. Off the record, what the USDA lawyers are doing to the front-line guys like Frisby et al is just… unconscionable, in my personal opinion. But you already knew my view on that, Marti.
It really seems to be more about CONTROL than anything else ( the well being of any of their employees included ).
There must be a set of personalities ‘at the top’ in the USFS who just can’t bring themselves to admit that they don’t have CONTROL of the information.
Look at what just happened.
RATHER than simply comply with a valid, legal FOIA request for material that was pretty much already KNOWN to exist… they still had to come up with their own alternate PLAN to make it look like they were still in CONTROL of the information.
Instead of just releasing the material to the original FOIA requestor ( InvestigativeMEDIA ), they went through all these back-channels and enlisted Arizona Forestry to help them.
Their ‘plan’ was to get ‘out ahead of the story’, but still remain in CONTROL of the actual amount of information that was going to reach the public.
I thought it was ironic that the story which ran right BEFORE the Yarnell story tonight on the NBC Nightly News was the ‘news flash’ that just one simply email had been ‘uncovered’ with regards to the GM Key Ignition frap that no one had seen before.
This one single email proved that General Motors DID know about the key switch problems before they admitted to knowing about it… and now it looks like any number of GM executives are going to lose their jobs over just this one point… and perhaps be indicted for lying to Congress.
One simple email that was ‘withheld’ from an investigation that involved deaths… and it looks like heads are going to roll at GM.
Well… what about the US Forestry Service?
Why do they get a ‘free pass’ with regards to behavior that basically amounts to ‘obstructing legal investigations’?
If ADOSH had ALL of this material that is now just suddenly popping up on Arizona Forestry’s own website and/or ADOSH had been made fully aware of how involved in this incident people like Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell really were… then ADOSH could have reviewed all this material BEFORE they did their interviews and would have obtained a much more accurate picture of what happened that day.
It didn’t happen.
The information ( video evidence and a FULL list of key participants and witnesses ) was WITHHELD from them. On purpose.
Their lawful investigation was ‘hindered’ ( if not obstructed ) due to this behavior.
Do you think it might be possible that, given all this obstruction on the part of the USFS to an ADOSH investigation, there is any possibility ADOSH could find a way to instigate an OSHA investigation?
I have no idea what a state OSH can do when a federal agency obstructs one of their legally empowered and required investigations.
I’m also thinking whatever accommodation AZF may be trying to negotiate with ADOSH is going to be seriously negated by this whole thing.
I really appreciate what you are saying here.
And I’m just still totally stumped.
In my mind, at this point, the USFS has nothing to protect/control here, at this point in terms of their own employees. And, in my mind, nothing to protect/control in terms of AZF.
Is it possible that “they” (the upper-ups) think they need to protect/control something regarding the SAIT and the SAIR?
It seems, to my humble mind, obstructing a legally required State OSH investigation, which could result in even more serious consequences to them, including possibly an OSHA investigation, or who knows what other kind of federal investigation. is a pretty risky (and potentially seriously unpopular, in terms of PR) path to choose, when none of their employees did anything wrong and, in fact, were some of the heroes on this fire.
I just don’t see what they’re trying, seemingly at all costs to protect.
After writing the above, and sitting here staring at it, the only thing I can think of is that they’re trying to protect the SAIT/SAIR.
Which, I guess, could make some kind of sense.
That’s the only thing I can think of.
But I don’t think, in the long run, it’s going to work.
Marti… you may be right.
Reading everything above again it suddenly dawned on me that the thinking might be all BACKWARDS here.
No… it does NOT make any sense that the US Forestry Service would be jumping through so many nefarious hoops when it wasn’t even THEIR fire… THEY were not required to even investigate it… and THEIR employees who just happend to be there are not significantly ‘at risk’ for legal action… and even if they WERE… the FEDS have the whole ‘Sovereign Immunity’ protection thing.
However… what if this is just all about Arizona Forestry.
What if US Forestry is just simply agreeing to whatever Arizona Forestry has been telling them THEY want them to do at all times ( such as NOT supply all the evidence they have from their employees to any other Arizona State Agency like ADOSH ).
What if USFS was actually willing to let ADOSH have everything they were originally asking for… but Arizona Forestry did NOT… and Arizona Forestry was then able to ‘call the shots’ about what USFS was willing to do and how many redactions there needed to be to suit them.
It was Arizona Forestry’s way of being able to control what their own sister agency in their own state ( ADOSH ) was able to find out about THEIR State Run Fire.
I also don’t believe that USFS employee Mike Dudley’s involvement in all of this actually ended with release of the SAIR document.
I think he could have possibly remained the ‘point man’ on this between Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service.
What if it was the US Forestry Service itself that turned to Arizona Forestry when that InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA was forwarded to THEM from Prescott National Forest… and the USFS people told Arizona Forestry…
“We have to fulfill this request. How do YOU want to handle it?”
“YOU tell US what you want to do here.”
Maybe it was then Arizona Forestry that decided to pull a ‘get out in front of the story’ move and pretend as if THEY had requested the information… but WITHOUT an actual FOIA request involved so USFS did not nave to ‘explain’ the redactions or what FOIA exemption clause was being ‘claimed’ for those extensive redactions?
It’s complicated.
WAY more complicated than it EVER had to be.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”.
The easiest thing to do was for everyone involved to have simply told the WHOLE truth from day one.
That is STILL what everyone should do here.
Just put on their big-boy pants, tell the TRUTH, get to the bottom of this, and do everything possible to make sure it never happens again.
Followup…
This ‘get out in front of the story’ move on Arizona Forestry’s part might have been a very clever move on their part… from a really sad and disgusting perspective.
I mean… look at what they just actually accomplished.
They just made it LOOK like they were ‘fully cooperating’ with a valid FOIA request… but WITHOUT having to actually file their own actual FOIA request.
They have now made it APPEAR as if all this evidence that has been withheld for so long has been validly released…. WITHOUT having to actually fulfill the original ( valid ) FOIA request(s) from any MEDIA outlet.
Arizona Forestry was most certainly NOT going to press them about supplying REASONS for all the ‘redactions’… or even demand to know what specific exemption clauses in FOIA they were ‘claiming’ for those ‘exemptions’.
Indeed… without a valid FOIA request… there was no obligation on the part of USFS to do that kind of ‘explaining’.
So NOW the information IS in the ‘possession’ of Arizona Forestry… but it’s the fully REDACTED remants of the original evidence with no explanations given for the redactions.
Arizona Forestry now has ‘cleansed’ copies of the evidence which they, in turn, can now use to fulfill any further Arizona Open Records requests to THEM… and they know it’s ‘sanitized’ according to their desires and can be given out to MEDIA people who are making those records requests.
Someone ( not AZF ) should still press for ANOTHER FOIA request to USFS for the exact same ORIGINAL EVIDENCE… and then demand an explanation for the redactions as USFS is required to do when fulfilling a valid FOIA request but still withholding parts of it.
I think InvestigativeMEDIA should NOT accept any material that Arizona Forestry now has in their possession as a valid fulfillment of the original FOIA request.
InvestigativeMEDIA ( and anyone else who originally requested ALL of this material ) should stick to their guns and demand that USFS still fulfill THEIR original requests.
It’s still a GAME that is being played here by Arizona Forestry in conjunction with their ‘parent company’… the US Forestry Service.
Good thinking.
I’m not sure how to write what I’m about to write.
I keep trying to reference some other comparable fatality fire situation.
Wherein the USFS was connected to a fatality fire that somebody else was in charge of.
The Steep Corner Fire and the Esperanza Fire come to mind. But on those fires USFS employees were killed.
This is the only fire I know of where “non-USFS employees” (even tho they were a federally certified national resource IHC) were killed, while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved.
In the Steep Corner Fire, I don’t think the USFS would have uttered a peep if it hadn’t been the case that an IHC superintendent raised a big complaint about the conditions on the fire and very loudly refused to accept their assignment to it.
In the Esperanza Fire, at first the USFS went along with the wink-wink-nod-nod “joint” investigation that basically blamed the USFS crew for their deaths until the public outcry was so great that they went back and did their own investigation of the CAL-Fire-managed fire.
Which leads me to this. As I have periodically posted/ranted, I think the dirty little secret in all of this has to do with the decision BY SOMEONE, late in the evening of June 29, 2013 to, after NONE OF THE REQUIRED ANALYSES WERE DONE, order a SHORT Type 2 Incident Management Team when it should have been apparent that this fire had the capability of getting really big and really nasty the next day.
Thus setting in motion a June 30 day of CHAOS in which the fire overpowered the IMT and everyone fighting it by MILES, and it’s a complete MIRACLE that more people were not maimed or killed.
I think that’s what AZForestry and USFS don’t want anybody to see.
This fire is an indictment against all the comfortable higher-ups in Phoenix who made that decision and left a WHOLE LOT of people on the ground in Yarnell to suffer/deal with the consequences themselves.
Including the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yes, it appears Granite Mountain made a fatal decision.
But I do believe, given their prior relatively stellar performances on previous fires, if the Yarnell Hill Fire had been properly managed by a team resourced properly enough to manage it, using strategies and tactics properly designed to do so,
Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there to hang themselves without anybody even knowing where they were and what they were doing.
That’s what I think is being PROTECTED.
Video M2U00267 (5 second through 14 second
B33 says “it sounds like they were working, umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to ya”
1 Who is B33 giving this report to?
2 Who gave B33 the information that he is reporting?
We already know the answer to point “2,” Calvin, right? B33 HEARD Eric Marsh say where they were and where they were going.
This is the point I have made all along that Bob seems to really bristle at.
Marsh was not HIDING anything (sorry, Fred). At most, Marsh was communicating on the WRONG frequency, literally.
Maybe folks will start believing this point now that Calvin is bringing it up.
Again Elizabeth has no clue B33 Calvin was talking to The fire camp that asked him if he knew where they were. Remember he had stated earlier in a conversation with OPS that they did not look comfortable where they were Yes he saw them on the ridge.
but there was never any specific conversation as to them going any where specific.
Most of what marsh said was very non committal.
So HOW did B33 know, then, Bob? Answer Calvin’s question, Bob, if you are so sure that *I* am wrong.
We went thru this in a lot of detail there is no evidence that Marsh told
B33 where they were headed. The only info that B33 had was he saw the crew behind the ridge and they did not look comfortable he was asked to call them and marsh said they were just moving and were fine.
There was no other conversation with marsh and no proof there was.
You have pushed this before to the point that you were willing to promote that B33 was there lookout which was a fallacy.
You can have all kinds of day dreams but you need facts which you can not produce. I have I hope answered Calvin on several occasions including this one Marsh never told B33 where they were headed and B33 only knew where they were based on seeing them on the ridge from there on he had no clue as to where they went or if they moved.
Any thing else is pure speculation………….We spent a lot of time going over this a couple of months ago.
Bob, you are honestly saying that B33 only knew where GM was because B33 – at some time that you are not sharing with us, Bob – SAW where GM was, without Marsh pointing themselves out? You are suggesting that B33 just randomly happened to look down and SEE Marsh and GM walking somewhere?
So tell me, Bob, when, exactly, after 4:00 p.m. would B33 have SEEN GM on the fire, given that we know exactly where B33 was (from the Air Study videos) during the relevant time frames, and given that you SURELY know how hard it is to randomly see someone from the air, particularly when you are a mile or more away at the OTHER end of the fire at the time that you are allegedly seeing that other person or their crew far far far away from you (as you are in the air)?
Elizabeth did you read what I said above ?????
the conversation was between Mouser and B33 About Them Being in the black and B33 said they were on the backside of the ridge and did not look comfortable should he go check on them again and Mouser said no they are safe in the black that was all between 1600 and 1620. we have been here many times B33 last saw the crew on the ridge near the Break site and then went back to his job as AA. We need to go back and remember the SE side of the Fire line at 1600 was Near the break site near the top by 1650 the fire line was east and south of Helms Ranch.
Between 1615 and 1640 B33 was concentrating on drops in Yarnell and keeping air craft from running into each other.
No he was not looking for any one on the ground until the call from GM then there was to much smoke to even know where they were.
You wrote:
“We need to go back and remember the SE side of the Fire line at 1600 was Near the break site near the top by 1650 the fire line was east and south of Helms Ranch.”
Thanks for reminding me of that. I was confused by that 1650 comment from B33.
What wrong frequency was Marsh communicating on?
calvin… to this day… it has never actually been CONFIRMED whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ really did ( or did NOT ) do an ‘eyes on’ check on Granite Mountain shortly after 4:00 PM.
The ‘evidence’ about that still remains conflicting.
The SAIR would have us believe that they ‘offered’ to go do that… but OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and simply said (paraphrasing) “Nah… they’re in the black. I’m sure it it.”
Other evidence suggests they DID, in fact, stop what they were doing and purposely went to go ‘check on them’.
There is even still that unconfirmed ( but possible ) radio como at the start of the 1620 Panebaker video where we seem to hear someone communicating directly with Bravo 33 ( via call sign ) and receiving a response that indicates John Burfiend did, in fact, SEE them ‘behind those hills there, on the corner of the fire”… but Burfiend was still not sure if DIVSA ( Marsh ) was actually WITH the men he was actually ‘seeeing’ down there and that is when he asked someone on the ground to “Call them and ASK them if Alpha can be placed WITH them.” 20 seconds later… someone did just that.
So it is still possible that John Burfiend DID have some kind of ‘visual fix’ on Granite Mountain in the 4:10 to 4:16 timeframe… but that still would have only put them up on the western ridge, still hiking SOUTH, and approaching the ‘Descent Point’.
What is really unbelievable here is that we are only now hearing these additional radio communications from Burfiend… and that no one who had the opportunity to ASK him about these important radio communications was (apparently) even aware they existed at the time they could have been ASKING him about all these statements we hear him making.
I would actually call him BACK now… and interview him AGAIN… now that there are all these known statements from him and he, himself, could just shed more light on WHO he was talking to at various times and WHY.
We still didn’t get just the few seconds of video/audio we needed to figure out for sure and certain who Burfiend was even talking to at the very start of the 1639 MAYDAY video segment.
Burfiend knows… but no one ever ASKED him about it.
Again as with WTKTT I give up Use facts and show them Really????
Mr. Powers… you have an ‘investigative’ background and are no stranger to the ‘interviewing’ business.
Seriously… how pissed would YOU be ( as an investigator charged with figuring out the full circumstances surrounding 19 accidental deaths ) to discover over a YEAR later that all this kind of evidence had always existed ( including all kinds of clear statements captured in recordings from people you would be interviewing )… but that it had been being kept HIDDEN from you?
Just based on what was released Saturday… there are about 20 more questions that investigators could have asked John Burfiend alone and gotten him to ‘clarify’ about what was really happening right before and after the deployment.
I think I’m with Marti at this point.
My tendency to end messages about this ‘new evidence’ is to finish all posts with a whole bunch of four letter words.
I know what I would have said in a lot of four letter words to the staff and any one else involved that’s who I am and who I always was.
I would have been livid and calling in my IOUs .
This investigation and cover up I would have never been a part of and I would have pulled the pin. But that’s me My type would never be assigned to this type of investigation in this day and age. So I like Gary Olsen will try to wind down and start fresh tomorrow.
What is really astounding here is that Arizona Forestry and their ‘parent company’ ( The USFS ) just got away with actually releasing a ton of ‘redacted evidence’ that they have ALWAYS had but without one iota of ‘explanation’ about where the fuck this evidence was when ADOSH needed it… and they were legally REQUIRED to at least let them know they had it.
It’s still not even the actual ORIGINAL material… yet now they look like the ‘good guys’ for releasing all this ‘sanitized’ stuff long after they should have.
It’s really all quite despicable.
My mind is now reeling with regards to what ELSE they might have ( videos, photos, testimony, etc. ) that no one has any clue about.
WHERE are the depositions, photos and cell phone data they took from the Peeples Valley Firefighters just 48 hours after the incident?
We can now SEE the firefighters who almost lost their lives that day marching by Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera there in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine…
…but we still have no idea where all the EVIDENCE that was obtained from THEM ever disappeared to.
Oops. Time to end. All I can think of are more four letter words again.
Remember my information of a recording and witness statement concerning the argument it is out there some where. it has not surfaced.
I just want to say to this that there are some, IMHO, very good people who served on this Serious Accident Investigation Team.
It may be that the investigation was under such time (and agency and media) pressure that they did’t realize the controversial nature of what was going to be produced.
I am really hoping that some of them realize the debacle of this investigation. And step forward to say something.
And I’m also thinking that only their fellow firefighters have the clout/responsibility to urge them/support them to do so.
Hi Calvin!
My two cents worth. And now, as I’m writing this, I see WTKTT is weighing in, but I’m writing this before reading that.
That comment really stood out to me as I was watching. Mostly because I was watching thru the eyes/ears/video of the Prescott NF firefighter (possibly not familiar with the southwest area of the fire) standing there on Shrine Road, wondering where in the world Granite Mountain was.
When I heard that, I thought WTF “southeast”???
And, I thought, that would easily have supported the Prescott 3 to think, as I think they were thinking, even more so, that GM was nearer to them than further from them.
Now, after this seriously long day of trying to figure these videos out, and after reading what you just wrote.
I think it’s possible Bravo 33 is thinking/saying that GM was heading southeast from the last time that he saw them. But lots of people, including Prescott 3, don’t know where he last saw them. If they were heading southeast from the last time he saw them, that would mean in the direction of the Helms Ranch. And not in the direction of Shrine Road.
OK now I’ll go see what WTKTT just wrote.
OK I just read what WTKTT wrote.
I agreed and then found myself LOLLING.
shiomchyoienchsiomn#(ETJSMC^*{{{}} = long list of four letter words.
Re Q 1: From the video it’s not possible to know who B33 was directing that message to. Bob may be correct–a more general A2G message.
Re Q 2: I think it’s a personal opinion based on what he, apparently, has been seeing.
Which makes what WTKTT is saying even more relevant. There isn’t any concrete evidence as to what he was, apparently seeing/thinking about where GM and Eric were located.
PS Can we have a REAL investigation of this fire, pretty please?
And PS Calvin:
The question you are asking is, imho, a REALLY important question.
I don’t know if this is really relevant to Calvin’s question or not… but there is another piece of evidence from another ‘airman’ who was there that day who totally mis-used the term ‘southeast’ when describing what he thought Granite Mountain’s location was that day.
It’s from Ranger 58 pilot Clifford Brunsting’s signed deposition in the ‘M-Law-Enforcement-no-redactions’ PDF file.
Pilot Clifford Brunsting was talking about that FIRST recon flight in the morning and he says he saw Granite Mountain ‘deploying’ out there on that western ridgeline by the anchor point just after they had finished their hike in that morning.
But even pilot Clifford Brunsting says that was on the ‘southeast edge of the fire’.
It was no such thing. He was either totally dis-oriented, airsick, misspoke, or even some combination of all three.
The anchor point was in no way on the ‘southeast edge of the fire’.
It was the SOUTH-WEST side of the fire that morning.
From Pilot Brunsting’s signed deposition…
——————————————————-
At 1016 hours after completing my recon, I dropped the Incident Commander and Operations at the original landing zone, picked up Officer Tarr, and relocated to the new landing zone. Of note, I observed and flew over the Granite Mountain Hotshots deploying on the ridgeline on the SOUTHEAST edge of the fire on this flight.
——————————————————-
Going back to the top for Marti……
I am still sticking with my information from a solid sore about the review 2 weeks ago.
I believe the FS did the full video to family and Yarnell and Prescott Fire officials the redacted or blacked out the last two videos before they sent to the State. That means we may be talking about two separate but the same Videos. The redacted version may not have been shown to Lawyers and all the Family members before the State release There was no time for the state to possibly show the Videos they had in 24 hours to get any acceptance from all involved. Dose that make any since??
Copy.
And, to be honest, I’m getting too brain-dead for much of anything to make sense.
I think it’s time for me to get ready for the pillows and check back in tomorrow.
NBC Nightly News just ran their own report on the newly released videos.
They did NOT mention Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
All they said about the SOURCE of the new videos is that they were ‘taken by other firefighters who happened to be in Yarnell that day’.
Too bad. This would have been an opportunity to put Aaron Hulburd himself on camera and get HIM to talk about these videos which HE took… and what else he might have heard or seen.
Someone still needs to do that.
NBC Nightly News also still just reported to the world at large that it was ‘communications problems’ that led to the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The only ‘communications problems’ that contributed to this accident was the fact that people with functioning radios didn’t know HOW to fully ‘communicate’.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Apparently we are the only ones on the planet who know who took those headcam videos.
I doubt that that’s an ACCIDENT.
On Oct. 18 I told every one the video was being Viewed and would soon be released this came from a source close to the one of the three people attached to the video
that was taken.
My sources were accurate as to the existence of the Video and how much there was
An additional 43 min. which means the other 7 plus min. released during the investigation puts the time at 50 plus min. so we are missing about 8 plus min. redacted.
I will stand by my source that the Families were reviewing the video at around Oct. 18 as I was told.
Again don’t always count on accurate reporting from the news media as to who saw what and when. were the Families more concerned with the release without there approval and not the time they saw the original. Ill leave it at that for now.
What would be really interesting to know/find out is if it was actually just SOME of the GM family members who were either just ‘notified’ about the videos coming out and/or give the opportunity to see them in advance of release.
In other words… USATODAY says that ( for sure and certain ) some Prescott Fire Captain named J.P. Vicente at least WARNED the ‘families’ that the material was going to be released ‘in a few weeks’.
Well… what’s the full scoop on THAT part of this story?
Did J.P. Vicente actually notify ALL of the family members?… or just some?
Is it possible that even the firefighting community has ‘drawn a line in the sand’ and only the families who have NOT filed lawsuits were getting this advance notice and/or opportunity to see the material beforehand?
I’d love to see J.P. Vicente himself ‘interviewed’ by someone, at this point, and have him explain exactly what he did ( or did NOT ) do… and WHO he actually (supposedly) talked to about all this some weeks ago.
Also… would love to know how a simple fire captain on a municipal fire department seemed to have known MORE about how a Federal Agency was going to respond to an FOIA request than ( apparently ) even the Arizona State Forestry division did.
Exactly.
Re Joy’s Photos she emailed me from June 30, July 2, and July 4.
Someone commented to me way downstream that my Dropbox link to them didn’t work.
I moved them sI should be able to successfully share the link.
Here it is. Hope it works this time!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eelrgcqxn2h8wgc/AABPwzkLwKAZCTHwu3PcOo_na?dl=0
Please let me know if it doesn’t work.
Thank you!
Works fine from here. No ‘login’ page appears as was the case with the other link.
Thanks.
I’m not used to posting stuff on the internet from Dropbox.
So I learned something today!
With a lot of these ‘online’ thingamabobs and accounts and whatnot… you have to remember that they ALL work they same way.
They use COOKIES to know whether you are ‘logged in’ or not.
The only way to be SURE you have something set correctly to be viewed by ‘outsiders’ ( without having to login ) is to make sure you DELETE all your cookies in your Browser and THEN ‘test the links’.
Other sites are the same way.
A lot of people stay ‘logged in’ to places like YouTube and Facebook and they think they have set things so that anyone can ‘view’ things… but only when they clear their cookies from their own Browser do they discover that things were still tied to a cookie based login.
Thanks.
Actually, after I read the directions, I wasn’t locating the folder or “sharing” it correctly.
One more thing that is confirmed from the newer videos is that people’s sense of TIME on fires is not always accurate. I mention this because Marti, I believe, was trying to tie something to a time stated in Willis’s unit logs, but I wouldn’t necessarily do that – I would not put a whole lot of faith in the precise times quoted in unit logs. Perhaps the order of events is accurate, but I am less confident that actual times will be. (This is the behavioral expert in me speaking, for what it is worth.) In one of the newerish videos, for example, at 4:50, Aaron indicates that he thinks the call for help from Division Alpha (Marsh) was roughly a half hour ago. But it wasn’t, obviously. It was maybe 10 minutes prior. But Aaron estimated three TIMES longer than that. Unless you have a REASON or specific NEED to pull up your sleeves and look at your watch on a fire, you often won’t.
I understand that. I think we all do, by now. As in REALLY.
I still think the times I was posting about are accurate enough to connect what’s going on to what’s going on. And, thus, my sequencing of the videos.
The video from the Incident Command Post with Darrell Willis’ crew getting ready to leave Double A Bar Ranch was taken WAY earlier than the videos stamped 3:30-ish, unless those videos are REALLY inaccurately LABELED by SOMEBODY.
If those videos are ACCURATELY LABELED by SOMEBODY, there was, in fact, a MAJOR burnout operation going on at Model Creek Road. Very close to where the Prescott 3 were at at 3:15 (via the Blues Brothers video).
The timing of that MAJOR BURNOUT being around from 3 to 3:30 is attested to numerous times and is video’ed AT THAT TIME within the AIR STUDY videos.
Sheesh. I”ve only been doing this for two weeks short of A YEAR.
Not only that, but….
When Darrell Willis is posting in his log, if he is UNCERTAIN about the time he is posting, he writes: “est” or “unknown time.”
So I don’t believe I have serious reason to doubt that he wasn’t, in fact, looking at his watch or cellphone, when he noted the times in his log.
Oh, my, Marti. You actually think he was filling in his unit log at roughly 2 p.m. or 2:30 p.m.? Not likely. Not that day. Not on that end of the fire.
Your comment about 2 p.m. or 2:30 p.m. just doesn’t fit, and my understanding was that you were getting it from Willis’s unit log. Apologies if I was misunderstanding!
I don’t understand what you are saying about 2-2:30 not “fitting.” Not “fitting” what?
I know FOR A FACT that Darrell Willis and his crew were not preparing to abandon Double A Bar Ranch after 3:30 PM when they were burning out Model Creek Road.
Therefore, IN FACT, the sequencing of these videos is not correct. as is claimed by AZF.
And yes, I think he was taking notes. Some firefighters actually do that. He was also using his CELLPHONE a lot, because of too much radio traffic. He was also taking photos with his cellphone and sending them to people.
I do believe he intentionally was paying attention to time during his whole shift. His interviews are the most clear of all of them as to TIME.
And I’m totally willing to be PROVEN wrong.
So far, the most important thing I have learned from the release of these videos is that neither the US Forest Service, nor AZ Forestry give a rats ass about the safety and well-being of their employees and THEIR families, friends, and loved ones.
THANK YOU Blue Ridge Hotshots and Prescott National Forest Hotshots for RISKING YOUR LIVES to search for the Granite Mountain Hotshots!!!!
And THANK YOU Aaron Hulburd for taking these precious videos while you were also RISKING YOUR LIFE, while at danger for being UNINSURED because some ones in high places didn’t want anyone to know you were even on the fire so you were NEVER ASSIGNED TO IT!
Namaste to all of you and
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Boo Boo alert.
The Prescott National Forest Firefighters weren’t Hotshots.
Doesn’t change a molecule of what I wrote above.
Marti, my understanding is that the three Prescott guys were not on the roster due to mistake, not malice. Hanlon’s razor, sort of.
One more thing: I think it is inaccurate, Marti, to say, with respect to Hulburd, that he was “at danger for being UNINSURED because some ones in high places didn’t want anyone to know you were even on the fire,” because, as I understand it, Bea Day actually had to be asked if her guys could be ordered up (which would then leave her Type 2 team understaffed). So, as best I can tell, nobody was hiding what was going on.
Personally, I don’t believe that.
Too many lengths were gone to to keep anybody from knowing they were even present.
And they’re not the only USFS crew to whom that was done.
I’m willing to be proven wrong.
Marti, as I understand it, they would not have GONE without Bea’s sign-off. Meaning, if they went to the YHF, that would leave Bea’s team SHORT, so that, if ANOTHER fire cropped up, and someone wanted to order Bea’s team in FULL, it would be SHORT. (I do not know if they would decline or what, but you see the issue.)
Bea Day, herself, was, in fact, even there. Her very self. Via the interviews.
Roy Hall called her (apparently she was in Prescott–she lives near Albuquerque) and asked her to send her very best people because he was spending the day filling in holes.
Since he, in fact, wanted her LONG Type 2 team to take over the fire and she knew that and was preparing to do that.
There is no record of ANY of them being on the fire according to the Dispatch Logs, except for, I think, Tony Sciacca and Marty Cole.
We have no idea who, else, from her team was on the fire. None of them were ever interviewed or acknowledged.
That’s an ACCIDENT?
Reply to Elizabeth post November 10, 2014 at 3:11 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Marti, my understanding is that the three Prescott guys were not on
>> the roster due to mistake, not malice.
Nobody ever said they weren’t ‘on the Roster’.
There actually has always been 2 mysterious ‘backfill’ orders placed into the ‘Resource Orders’ request document for both Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
They are only ‘partial’ entries into the ordering system and they are both dated July 3, 2013 ( 3 days after the incident ).
Hulburd’s mysterious backfill order is order number 0-160.
Yowell’s mysterious backfill order is order number 0-161.
There is, however, not even any such partial ‘backfill’ order for Jason Clawson.
According to the official documents released by the SAIT… Jason Clawson was ‘never there at all’.
But even on these mysterious BACKFILL orders that appear for just Hulburd and Yowell… they are still ‘hiding’ the fact that these men were there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013. Even though these ‘backfill’ orders were entered into the system 3 days after the incident… they both say these men were not ‘needed’ until July 1… the day AFTER the tragedy.
Other ODD things about these mysterious ‘backfill’ orders.
Even though both orders say the men were not even ‘needed’ in Yarnell until July 1, 2013… they both have ‘special needs’ notes that say they ‘helped secure the accident scene’.
The ‘Ordered From’ field has no standard Unit ID designator.
Just a phone number. 623-445-0288
That phone number is a FAX machine at Arizona Forestry ( Not Prescott National Forest and not anything associated with Bea Day in Prescott ).
These two mysterious backfill orders are the only ones in the entire ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that show firefighters being orderd FROM a FAX machine.
On page 171 of the ‘J- Resource Orders’ document released by Arizona Forestry…
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s BACKFILL order…
Request Number: O-160
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1031 PNT
From: 623-445-0288
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
(Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC))
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1300 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: ( No entry )
To Unit: ( No entry )
Assigned Date/Time: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned Unit ID: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned: Pending
M/D Ind: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Departure: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Arrival: ( No Entry )
Released To: ( No Entry )
Travel Mode: ( No Entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: This is a backfill. KC helped secure the accident scene
Aaron Hulburd’s BACKFILL order…
Request number: O-161
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1033 PNT
From: 623-445-0288
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
(Hulburd, Aaron (AZPDC))
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1300 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: ( No entry )
To Unit: ( No entry )
Assigned Date/Time: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned Unit ID: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned: Pending
M/D Ind: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Departure: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Arrival: ( No Entry )
Released To: ( No Entry )
Travel Mode: ( No Entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: This is a backfill. Aaron helped secure the accident scene
There are also two strange ‘fulfillment’ notes associated with these ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and Jason Clawson. They say that even these mysterious backfill orders were UTF ( Unable To Fill ).
On page 205 of the publicly released ‘J-Resource Orders’ document…
Req No.: O-160
Docs: PDC is UTFing this order for Kc because he is dispatched out of PDC.
Entered By: Georgia Burns (AZ-PHC) 07/03/2013 1105 PNT
Req No: O-161
Docs: PHC is utfing this order as Aron is dispatched out of PDC
Entered By: Georgia Burns (AZ-PHC) 07/03/2013 1104 PN
** MORE ABOUT JASON CLAWSON
With regards to Jason Clawson and the fact there isn’t even a mysterious ‘backfill’ order for him in the official ‘J-Resource Orders’ document… there actually is ANOTHER entry for him in ANOTHER ROSS system.
That Public URL showing Jason Clawson in the ROSS system USED to be this…
http://fam.nwcg.gov/gacc/swcc/predictive/intelligence/daily/ddsswcc/cognos/incidents/incident_resources_Yarnell_Hill.pdf
…but that document has been REMOVED. Not sure when, but that link above was working as late as June of this year.
Here is the ROSS resource order for Jason Clawson that the link above USED to show when it was still working…
——————————————–
START OF ROSS REPORT DATA
Incident GACC: Southwest Area Coordination Center
Incident Dispatch: Arizona Interagency Dispatch Center
These are the HEADERS for the individual report column data shown
below, separated by COMMAS.
Clawson, Hulburd, WILLIS, and Yowell were all hired June 30 as DIVS.
Incident Name,
Incident Number,
Req Number Prefix,
Req Number,
Assignment Name.
Fill Code,
Qual Status,
Res Prov Unit,
Res GACC,
Mob Date,
Res Status,
Days Assigned
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-163, Clawson, Jason W (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-161, Hulburd, Aaron (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q, AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-18, WILLIS, DARRELL (AZ-ADC), DIVS, Q, AZPRC, NMSWC, 6/29/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-160, Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q, AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
END OF ROSS REPORT DATA
——————————————–
SIDENOTE: This online ROSS report for the Yarnell HIll Fire shows Willis, Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell as all having been working the Yarnell Hill Fire for the full 12 days. I don’t believe this is actually the case for ANY of them.
So in the documentation officially released by Arizona Forestry AND in this ‘other’ ROSS report… Yowell had a ‘backfill order number of 0-160 and Hulburd’s number was 0-161
In the OTHER ROSS system… Jason Clawson’s ‘Request Number’ for Yarnell was supposedly number 0-163.
The officially released document from Arizona Forestry ENDS with order number 0-162 ( A resource order for an ‘Agency Representative’ filled by Glenn Joki ).
There IS no order number 0-163 included at all in what Arizona Forestry released publicly.
In other words… they ‘cut off’ the information they were releasing at order number 0-162… just 1 shy of the actual ROSS resource order number that would supposedly have shown Jason Clawson’s name in the public release.
SUMMARY
No one ever said that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell weren’t ‘on the roster’ or that it was IMPOSSIBLE to determine that these men were THERE on Shrine road that day. If you knew how to DIG through the information… the hints were there.
But the SAIT and Arizona Forestry were making it as difficult as possible to know about them being there… and what roles they actually played that day.
ADOSH never even requested interviews with these men because it was not made CLEAR to them how critical a role they played in both the recording of the MAYDAY radio traffic and the actual discovery of the bodies.
WTKTT
Try going back and checking Bea Day Type 2 Team order and see if they are listed on that as part of the team Order.
Mr. Powers… I can find no ‘Bea Day Type 2 Team’ order whatsoever in the ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that was supplied by Arizona Forestry as the (supposed) de-facto complete list of all resources ordered for Yarnell.
I didn’t expect to.
Roy Hall was doing all of that OFF THE RADAR.
He was short people… and he KNEW it… and he was just trying to get Bea Day to cover his ass and send him some people… totally ‘off the radar’ and outside of the normal ordering process.
Roy Hall ‘waved this off’ during his interviews by just saying he ‘didn’t have time for all that computer stuff’.
There isn’t even a ‘backfill’ order for Bea Day herself… but we KNOW that she was actually THERE in Yarnell that day.
Something caused someone to go ahead and create those mysterious ‘backfill orders’ O-160 and O-161 for Yowell and Hulburd ( because they were still insisting on getting PAID even though they were never actually assigned to the fire? ).
But no one saw the need to do the same kind of ‘backfill’ orders for Bea Day herself, or Jason Clawson, or anyone else who we still don’t even know about that Bea Day might have had heading to Yarnell that day.
It was all supposed to go smoothly… and Hall thought he could ‘get away’ with filling out his team and bypassing the normal ordering process, or something.
Hall didn’t know that Arizona Forestry was going to force it all up to a Type 1 incident order before all these ‘secret’ Bea Day hires would even start showing up in Yarnell that day. It all turned into a mess, from a documentation standpoint.
Maybe I’m missing something somewhere.
I will do some more checking.
NO ONE was doing Roy Hall these favors out of the kindness of their heart. Anyone headed to Yarnell that day was expecting to get PAID.
Agree. And thank you for all of this.
Actually, I do think Bea Day was pitching in, to some extent, not only for the possible pay, but for the fact that she cared about what was happening.
She was taking some risk for her team, in my opinion, all things considered.
And, via the interviews and stuff, it’s pretty clear to me that Roy Hall trusted Bea Day and her team way more than he trusted ROSS.
Could be in the Dispatch at the fire written record and not in the orders. But it my just be a phone conversation from IC to Bea and no record. Not good but we know they were coming to the fire or were there when things went to hell.
From what I’ve encountered, in the fire-fighting community, at least at the levels where people are actually fighting the actual fires,
not everything is about the money.
Typo in the original post above.
I accidentally typed ‘Jason Clawson’ in a paragraph when I mean to type KC ‘Bucky Yowell.
There are ONLY these two strange ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in the official ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that was released by Arizona Forestry as the (supposedly) definitive document defining WHO was ever hired to work the Yarnell fire.
There is NO ORDER WHATSOEVER ( backfill or otherwise ) for Jason Clawson in this AZF document.
The pargraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“There are also two strange ‘fulfillment’ notes associated with these ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky Yowell’. They say that even these mysterious backfill orders were UTF ( Unable To Fill ).
Also… one more thing.
Notice up above that the original ROSS document that was sitting online had the correct ‘Mob Date’ entries of June 30, 2013 for Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell, as they were originally ordered up for Yarnell.
However… when someone got around to then creating these alternate ‘backfill’ orders that would be ‘inserted’ into the ‘J-Resource Orders’ document for public consumption… those ‘Mobilization Dates’ for both Hulburd and Yowell were CHANGED to ‘July 1, 2013’, the day AFTER the incident.
On July 3, 2013… someone was creating ‘alternate backfill orders’ in the ROSS system so that Hulburd and Yowell could actually get PAID ( or something )… but they STILL seemed to also be trying to make it look like these two men were NOT actually there in Yarnell on June 30 itself.
Regarding redactions: Some of you were wondering about redactions or the videos being clipped. There are two things at play, but the easiest one to address is as follows:
John Dougherty should have gotten a letter when the USDA/Forest Service responded to his request for the videos that laid out what they were redacting and why. If the USDA clipped the videos, they did not need to explain why to the AZSF, but they WOULD have had to explain it to Dougherty, depending on HOW he requested the videos and whether or not clipped videos would have complied without explanation.
So those of you (Bob, Marti, WTKTT) who were questioning whether the videos were clipped and why might actually find your answer in a letter sent to JD.
(The second thing at play, however, is a more sophisticated legal stratagem not worth getting into….)
Elizabeth… I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.
Even the REDACTED Blue Ridge Logs that the FEDS finally ‘coughed up’ to ADOSH had no ‘letter of explanation’ for ALL of the redactions… even though it was (supposedly) required.
To this day… there is no valid explanation for the MASSIVE redactions in those documents.
The US Forestry Service is not ‘playing by the rules’.
You also obviously haven’t even read Johh Dougherty’s own article from yesterday which explains the entire sequence of events here… and how these videos came to be released.
The US Forestry service has NOT fulfilled InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request.
When IM sent that FOIA to Prescott National Forest… they ‘punted’ it up to their corporate headquarters ( The US Forestry Service )… probably accompanied with an email that said “Oh shit!… What do we do NOW?”.
The US Forestry service decided to just ‘get out in front of the story’ and instead of actually fulfilliing the IM request… they just started arranging for Arizona Forestry to ‘receive’ the material and then ‘publish’ it on their own website.
Arizona Forestry received no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS… and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA request… no such letter will be forthcoming at THAT time, either.
WTKTT, allow me to try to explain again:
When the USFS *GIVES* something to AZSF that the AZSF has not requested via FOIA, the USFS does not have to COMPLY with FOIA … which means that the USFS does not have to EXPLAIN what they redacted to the AZSF.
Elizabeth. Allow me to explain.
We already understand that.
Marti, clearly not, because WTKTT said on NOVEMBER 10, 2014 AT 5:23 PM:
Even the REDACTED Blue Ridge Logs that the FEDS finally ‘coughed up’ to ADOSH had no ‘letter of explanation’ for ALL of the redactions… even though it was (supposedly) required.
To this day… there is no valid explanation for the MASSIVE redactions in those documents.
My response to WTKTT’s above statement, Marti, is “wrong.” The USFS – an in-house named Steve Hattenbach, to be exact – DID give ADOSH an explanation, although it sucked, and, had ADOSH pushed back on it, they likely could have gotten some traction.
Also, Marti, WTKTT said “Arizona Forestry received no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS… and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA request… no such letter will be forthcoming at THAT time, either.”
If WTKTT actually already understood, as you seemed to suggest to me, Marti, that the USFS did not HAVE to give AZFS any sort of explanation, presumably WTKTT would not have made the comment above that I quote.
Or am I missing something, Marti?
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 10, 2014 at 6:53 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Also, Marti, WTKTT said “Arizona Forestry received
>> no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS…
>> and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually
>> ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA
>> request… no such letter will be forthcoming at
>> THAT time, either.”
At the bottom of the very page that Arizona Forestry created on their own website for these ‘new’ videos… they added the following statement…
“Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information from the Forest Service.”
I take that to mean they ALSO provided no clear information on the redactions… or exactly WHICH ‘exemption’ statutes of FOIA they are ‘claiming’ in order to perform all the redactions.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> If WTKTT actually already understood, as you
>> seemed to suggest to me, Marti, that the USFS did
>> not HAVE to give AZFS any sort of explanation,
>> presumably WTKTT would not have made the
>> comment above that I quote.
Elizabeth… YOU are the one who seemed to be suggesting in YOUR comment above that whenever someone fulfills an FOIA request and there are redactions… that they are SUPPOSED to also supply some kind of explanation as to which ‘exemption allowances’ of FOIA are being ‘invoked’ for said redactions.
If Arizona Forestry really did do an ACTUAL FOIA of their own for the videos that were just delivered to them… then YES… USFS was SUPPOSED to give them such an explanation for all redactions.
I actually do NOT think that Arizona Forestry ever filed their own FOIA request for this material at all.
I think the fact that it entered into their possession is just part of the US Forestry’s plan to ‘get out ahead of this story’ and release the material somewhere where they still had control over it and where the recipient would ‘ask no hard questions’.
I believe it was InvestgativeMEDIA’s own original FOIA request to Prescott National Forest that started this whole ‘alternate plan’ to be put into action on the part of US Forestry.
If they ( USFS ) ever really DO comply with the original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request… then yes… they are still SUPPOSED to supply an explanation about which exemption statues of FOIA they are ‘claiming’ in order to perform all the redactions… but I will still bet you that sawbuck there will be no such letter ‘attached’ to the FOIA fulfillment package.
As with the Blue Ridge Unit Logs officially requested by ADOSH with an actual FOIA ( and a Touhy request, I believe )… USFS seems to think they are ‘above all that’ and can redact whatever the hell they want and NOT have to fully explain anything to anyone.
The Forest Service made no mention of a possible redactions to the videos requested by InvestigativeMEDIA in its reply to the FOIA. A link to the letter is now included in the story.
John, I’m not seeing the letter that Vargas (or, more likely, Hubbard or Joyner) would have sent you along with the CD that they sent you with the newish videos on them. That letter should have a lengthy list of what they did not give you and why.
For me, one of the more useful points from the newish videos is Paul Musser confirming that there were NOT winds of 40 mph on the YHF.
I don’t have my copy of the videos clips in front of me, or else I would give you the reference number of which video I am referencing, but it is the one where Paul is talking to Yowell (I think), and Paul makes clear that 40 mph is not what they are experiencing on the YHF. (This confirms in my mind that the later winds are not outflow boundary winds but are indrafting/convection/etc.) This, by the way, is bit of follow-up to a point I was making for Marti many months ago. Sorry for my delay!
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 10, 2014 at 1:56 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> I don’t have my copy of the videos clips in front of me, or else I would
>> give you the reference number of which video I am referencing.
Then please go check and please be more specific.
Honestly, Elizabeth, that’s one of the things that was ‘setting people off’ here every time you would come on here with comments. You would constantly try to make ‘points’ and then not provide enough information for anyone to know exactly what the hell you were referring to.
Sometimes it was ‘unknown sources’ or ‘I can’t remember where I read that’ or whatever… but you make it really difficult for anyone to even respond to your comments when you are asking US to go ‘do your homework for you’.
In this case… PLEASE just tell us exactly which of the 21 videos you are talking about now.
That would be helpful.
WTKTT, my point was just to share what *I*, personally, thought was really valuable, because some folks who follow this blog but do not post are sometimes curious about what I am catching.
The fact that Paul Musser confirms that he was not experiencing 40 mph winds on the YHF is, in my view, a relevant point.
I see your reading skills have not improved.
WHAT specific comment are you TALKING about?
WHAT video file do you think you are hearing this in?
And what video file are you pointing your many followers at?
Or don’t they care either?
I would like to make an apology to JD and those on here who are here to discuss the information we find and receive. Elizabeth attacked me and what information I have given freely here. Shall I say she twisted my tail to many times and I bit back. I am not here to degrade any ones input or who they are
or their credibility. So again I apologize to all of you who have spent the time to be actively involved in this process. Enough said…………
FWIW… no apology necessary ( from my own perspective, anyway ).
Some people are just really good at pushing other people’s buttons…
and they seem to really enjoy it.
Whadda ya gonna do. Sometimes you have to ‘push back’.
If no one else has said so lately… THANK YOU, Mr. Powers, for being RIGHT about what
was going to happen… and for bringing your information to this public discussion in a way that YOU see fit and are comfortable with.
I actually still shudder to think of the workload that has probably been on the shoulders of Mr. John Dougherty with regards to keeping all the ‘hate mail’ and nasty-grams from appearing on this discussion from people who just can’t tolerate an open forum.
Thanks once again to Mr. John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for PROVIDING the resources necessary for this kind of ongoing public discussion.
Back to work.
And thank you for providing all the specialties that make it easer to follow all the information and photos you do a lot of work here to bring clarity to what we have.
Again I will also refer back to the things I put on here earlier they are still out there concerning the argument an audio copies of it I am still hoping they will surface.
Maybe what we just got will shake them lose.
As to the Video’s
WTKTT and JD If the State did not have the Videos till Nov. 7th dose that mean the Forest Service was going around showing them to the Families and local Fire fighters? About 2 to 3 weeks ago that took place.
Under the freedom of Information Act can the Forest Service continue to hold the tape in its entirety and not release it?
Its not like they are protecting National Security.
Bob, that is a RUMOR. The families did NOT see the videos ahead of time – that was a rumor from you and Fred….
Marti
If I am not mistaken Bea Days team was ordered and later replaced with a type 1 Team. The 3 from Prescott arrived early and were out scoping out the fire for their team that would be taking over at shift break 1800.
That dose occur quite often.
I am interested to know who the female was that was asking about GM and how long since they were last herd from them just before the SUV’s went to search for them. It sounded like someone of authority.
WAS THAT BEA DAY?
Also they would not have been shown on shift till the team took over but they would have been shown on time slip as assigned to the fire and covered under Insurance for all practical purposes.
I think they just at that time had no assignment until the full team took over and they may as well been frustrated with what was going on, on the Fire at 1500 in the afternoon.
Exactly. They were there.
And I was wondering the VERY same thing about that female voice.
And you hear it after a red truck that I haven’t seen anywhere else passes with a fire-fighter driving it.
So, regarding what WTKTT said downstream about people being on the fire that aren’t shown in the dispatch logs not being covered by workman’s comp if anything went wrong (which it easily could have), do you agree with that?
not really they were part of Bea Days team so they could be out surveying the fire to report back at team beefing for Bea. They still would have been on time slip and assigned to fire fro order once the leave there time is recorded to the fire until they are off duty.
Thanks Bob.
I don’t really understand this (WHO DOES???)
But what I’m “hearing” you “saying” is that the various Dispatch Logs (like what WTKTT is documenting above-stream) aren’t the only record of “employed” “engagement” on a fire such that doing something like risking life and limb to go find and, hopefully, rescue a crew wouldn’t equate to doing that without Workmans Comp coverage.
Is that what you are saying?
Elizabeth please take note Joy also stated that the Families were reviewing that Video as a conformation of what I said.
I created no rumor it was a valid statement with confirmation from more than me.
Bob, you yourself STATED the rumor as fact, claiming to have “info”!! You said:
Bob Powers says OCTOBER 18, 2014 AT 2:40 PM
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.
And your point is????
Joy also confirmed the locals were talking about it as well
and that I was not the only one saying it would be released soon??????
My point is: YOU SPREAD RUMORS as if they were fact, Bob. And then you claim that you don’t do it.
That, Bob, is my point. You. Spread. RUMORS. and it HURTS people because it creates drama and frenzy and you don’t admit that all you are spreading are RUMORS. You state things as FACT, as if Fred were somehow gospel, which, I assure you, he is NOT. Obviously. Brendan was not deposed, and these new videos did NOT come from ADOSH days ago.
Elizabeth what I have said is fact and Fred had nothing to do with it. Where do you suppose the fact that the Video’s would be released came from and who but me said they were there on OCTOBER 18 3 weeks ago I guess I had some good info no body else was saying any thing.
So spreading Rumors NO just facts that are right in front of your eyes.
And yes McDonough did give testimony to Lawyers.
I have offered facts based on what I was told so far they are coming true unless you are denying that the State just released what I said they would???
I stand on my honesty and integrity I really question yours.
Of course no one should ever trust a Lawyer
Which you attained before you became a professor. You have spent a lot of time trying to discredit me But my background and record still stand and you keep looking stupid….
Bob, you yourself said as gospel FACT the following, which was absolutely, 100% NOT TRUE:
“Bob Powers says OCTOBER 18, 2014 AT 2:40 PM
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.”
And again what are you saying??
I do not deny that and I stand by it
If you don’t like it go find another sand box where you can be king of the mountain….
If that doesn’t satisfy you . Go ask J.P. Vincent Captain Prescott where he got the info several weeks ago and warned the families????? it might be released.
Bob, my understanding is that Fred convinced JD to go looking for this video, so John Dougherty did so…. and then word got out (from Fred and you and others through the grapevine who realized what JD was doing or was likely to do) that more folks were now also going to get this video, and JP or the rumor mill picked it up from there and reached out to the families.
In the news paper release I do not see a statement from family members as to when they viewed the video.
only that a Lawyer had not seen it.
also the state or FS blacked out the last part were the bodies were shown But a Wife says she saw that part,
this all happened between the Nov 7 released to the State and the November 8th release to the public which John released to us around 7:30 PM That is not much time to review with all the families
Something still dose not smell right here. Who’s pulling whose strings????
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 10, 2014 at 4:39 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Something still dose not smell right here.
>> Who’s pulling whose strings????
You can say that again.
The USATODAY article that ran on this says, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been WARNED that this ‘new material’ was going to be released ‘a few weeks’ ago by none other than J. P. Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
There is another STORY here that needs to be told about how this all actually went down.
They were told and reviewed the video in that meeting I keep telling every one happened around the 18th of October. Again something is fishy here.
Just went thru the news release you posted the last paragraph by the Lawyer is a little telling as it says the Families did not view or were contacted by the state of the release.
But what are all these statements from family members stating they saw the Videos in there homes. It had to be a early showing that they saw and were not told it would be released.
How did they get the Videos to there homes and when????? The State had no time to contact and review the Videos with Families spread all over the place much less Lawyers.
Yet we are hearing the family members reviewed the Videos.
Something don’t fit here at all…………….
From the AZ Central article:
Attorney Patrick McGroder, “who represents families of the fallen hotshots” says:
“I’ve not seen them and how substantive they are, but you’re still dealing with very tender, sensitive victims of this tragedy, and you would think that the state forestry department would at least have the decency to at least contact the victims’ survivors to let them know it was going to be released and to give them the opportunity to either see the videos or have the opportunity to determine whether there’s anything that might cause them any further injury and damage.”
To me, “to give them the opportunity to either see the videos” sounds like, in his mind, they hadn’t seen the videos.
He could be mistaken.
This is truly weird.
Even if they HAD seen them, the anger about them not being notified they were about to be released to the public without any consultation about that is pretty truly awful.
Link:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
Except the AP narrative, which is used in the Prescott Daily Courier article, says the neither the families, nor Brendan, nor their lawyers saw the videos before Saturday. And their lawyers are po’d about that.
Arizona Forestry posts Yarnell firefighter videos
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=138209
Apparently the AP version, published today, is merely a “mixtape” of the AZCentral version.
The USATODAY article that ran on this says, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been WARNED that this ‘new material’ was going to be released ‘a few weeks’ ago by none other than J. P. Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
This doesn’t establish whether the familes then had ( during the last few weeks after Vicente’s warning to them ) any opporunity to VIEW the material… but unless USATODAY is totally full of shit there is no doubt they ‘knew it was coming’.
Except for Brendan, that is.
Brendan still maintains he had no idea this material was going to be released.
So Vicente saw fit to notify the families when he knew this material was going to be released… but it didn’t even occur to him to tell Brendan as well?
There is whole ‘nother STORY that needs to be told here about exactly how all this really went down.
Truly.
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, the main investigator/writer for the AZ Central story, which is the basis for the AP story, has done some really good research/analysis/writing on this fire and the conflicted agency pretzel power-struggle relationships related to it.
I think she’s really serious about this thing, and she’s also brilliant, and does lots of HOMEWORK.
I don’t know if she reads us. I hope she does.
SOMEBODY besides us needs to know who took those helmetcam videos and the SIGNIFICANCE of that and of what is in them.
It’s impossible to tell, in that article, WHEN the interviews were done with the family members that led to the quotes included in it.
But, apparently she had sources who clued her in on that hedzup by that Prescott Fire Dept guy.
She knew the videos existed. She’s probably the person who triggered their FOIA request.
Most of her stuff lately has been about the AZ elections. But I can imagine her hunkering down regularly to scan Yarnell stuff.
way more than she lets on to.
I HOPE she is asking questions inside her mind, and among her also-concerned pals, about what this current jockeying between USFS, SAIT, AZF, the families, the public, and JD (and via him US) is all about.
And, I think it’s important to keep in mind, in the middle of all this STUFF, the POINT of this.
People are still being HURT by these games. This fire has not even been contained, seventeen long months after it ignited.
And DOLLARS are still being spent to fight this fire, including all the DOLLARS being spent to prevent anybody knowing what actually happened.
WTF is the USFS continuing to try to HIDE?
I can understand AZF trying to hide stuff. I think they screwed up massively.
But USFS????
None of their people are on “the chopping block.” A bunch of their people are, in fact, heroes who risked their lives trying to find/rescue Granite Mountain.
All the USFS people on this fire performed admirably.
WHY are they throwing their own people under the bus, jeopardizing their (and their families, loved ones, and friends) mental and emotional well-being, impeding efforts to get to the truth so that future fire-fighters can learn from this. to, what, protect AZF???????
I really truly, right now, sitting here, don’t get it.
And I really hope Yvonne doesn’t either.
It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 10, 2014 at 1:09 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> AZF says
>>
>> “On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona
>> State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest
>> Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as
>> they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came
>> into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.”
>>
>> What does this supposedly mean?
What it ‘supposedly’ means is that Arizona Forestry NEVER saw, or was even AWARE, that this ‘other video footage’ even existed until sometime last Friday.
>> Marti also asked…
>>
>> …and is it even remotely believable?
Nope.
Look again at the actual STATEMENT.
There is that magic ‘possession’ word and the hint of the ‘gamesmanship’
I was talking about last week.
(quote) “…came into the POSSESSION of Arizona State Forestry.”
It is NOT believable that if the US Forestry Service actually GAVE that 7 minute and 49 second ‘cut’ from Hulburd’s video footage to the SAIT long before the SAIR ever came out that Arizona Forestry and the SAIT would have also NOT been aware of ( or had their own copies of ) ALL this ‘other’ footage.
However… as far as any responsibility of responding to ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests goes… they appear to be ‘playing that game’ I was talking about.
Even though they may have had their own COPIES of this footage ( just like I’m sure they always had their own unredacted copies of ALL of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs )… they thought they had a ‘get out of FOIA free card’ in their pocket by being able to claim they were not the OWNERS of this information and, therefore, not required to supply that information in response to any (lawful) State Level Arizona Open Records request.
It’s all must ‘mental gymnastics’ and a way to NOT have to supply information you might actually have always had copies of in response to a records request that hits your doorstep.
What is getting ‘lost in the noise’ here, now that this ‘story’ has hit the mainstream media, is that it appears to have been John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA that FORCED this event to happen.
Everyone needs to be sure and read the IM Top Level article that reports the ‘sequence of events’ here and it becomes obvious that Arizona Forestry ONLY decided to release this information after John Dougherty went straight to the Prescott National Forest with a specific FOIA request.
Prescott National Forest ‘punted’ that valid FOIA request up to ‘headquarters’ ( The US Forestry Service ), and they, in turn, then coordinated the release of this material with their cohorts at Arizona Forestry INSTEAD of responding directly to the original FOIA request from InvestigativeMEDIA.
It’s all about CONTROL for them ( Arizona Forestry and US Forestry Service ).
They KNOW that they MUST respond to these valid, legal requests for information… but they still chose ‘gamesmanship’ over ‘transparency’ and they still just keep trying to find ways to do the absolute minimum required action but STILL retain ‘control’ over how much information is seeing the light of day.
John Dougherty’s original article ‘announcing’ the release of the new video footage…
InvestigativeMEDIA
State Forestry Division Releases New Yarnell Hill Fire Video In Response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s Public Records Request
November 8, 2014 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-division-releases-new-yarnell-hill-fire-video/
From the article itself…
———————————————-
InvestigativeMEDIA learned that there was additional video taken by the PNF firefighters and filed a series of public records with state and federal agencies for the video.
On Oct. 11, InvestigativeMEDIA emailed a request under the Arizona Public Records Law to the state Forestry Division.
Forestry Division spokeswoman Carrie Dennett responded the next morning, Sunday, Oct. 12, by email stating the division did not have any unedited videos beyond what was released as exhibit “A-22 HelmetCamVideo”.
“Arizona State Forestry does not have that unedited version of the helmet cam video,” Dennett stated. “I have given you the only helmet cam video we have in our possession (the one that is about 8 minutes long). If/when we do receive that unedited video, I will fill your attached public records request.”
———————————————-
So right there is the ‘gamesmanship’ coming through on the part of Carrie Dennett.
She is being VERY careful to use the ‘in our possession’ phrase.
That doesn’t mean AZF was not full AWARE of this footage or had even been able to have free ‘access’ to it ( such as on a Server sitting at the US Forestry Service ).
She is only being very careful to phrase her response in terms of ‘possession’ with regards to having any responsibility to fulfill the State level ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.
If I put up a private YouTube channel, post some videos to it, and then give you the LINKS to the videos so you can watch them all day long… are those videos ‘in your possession’?
No… they are not.
You get to ‘have your cake and eat it too’.
You get to SEE and HEAR all the ‘video’ I have… but when someone comes knocking on your door asking to see it you get to hand out the mental gymnastics card and say “That information is not in our possession so we are not required to respond to your request”.
Also from John Dougherty’s article…
———————————————
Also on Oct. 13, InvestigativeMEDIA filed a Freedom of Information Act request with Prescott National Forest for additional video shot by Prescott National Forest firefighters. The PNF forwarded the request to U.S. Forest Service national headquarters in Washington.
On Oct. 21, a Forest Service FOIA officer confirmed by email that the agency had received InvestigativeMEDIA’s records request.
“We are working as quickly as possible to process each request and appeal in the order in which it was received,” FOIA officer George Vargas stated.
The Forest Service did not provide a copy of the videos to InvestigativeMEDIA prior to releasing them to the Forestry Division on Friday.
———————————————
So the mainstream media is making this sound like Arizona Forestry was jumping through hoops to be the ‘good guys’ and try and wrestle more important ‘evidence’ away from the US Forestry Service.
That is NOT how this went down.
It was only after Prescott National Forest forwarded InvestigativeMEDIA’s valid FOIA request on to their corporate headquarters ( probably with an email that said “Oh shit!… what do we do now!” ) that the FEDS came up with their own PLAN to respond to this legal request for information that is known to exist.
THAT is the point where Arizona Forestry got involved.
The US Forestry Service decided it would rather ‘get out in front of this’ and ‘go public’ with the information via Arizona Forestry ( and their website ) than respond directly to a valid FOIA from a media outlet.
Gamesmanship.
That’s all it is.
Has been since day one… and it will continue.
I would imagine that ADOSH is pretty pissed at this point.
THEY were REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to ‘investigate’ this accident.
People ( especially employers ) were/are REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to ‘cooperate’ with that ‘legal’ investigation.
I don’t know if they can ever file any ‘obstructing a legal investigation’ charges against either Arizona Forestry or the US Forestry Service… but if they CAN… then they certainly now have all they proof they need that these agencies were not ‘cooperting’ with their own LEGAL investigation.
Yeah, that “The Arizona State Forestry Division (ASFD) has published 21 newly acquired Yarnell Hill video received from the US Forest Service (USFS) through a Freedom of Information Act request” statement, I knew had to be bogus.
Oh, but look how it’s worded!
I’m almost wondering if, given all these obvious shenanigans, OSHA might just step in.
At this point, it’s also obvious, USFS is not “protecting their employees,” they’re actually HARMING them. Oh, but they’re (miraculously) not DEAD, so……move along, nothing to see here.
Also, USDA OIG has, apparently, been getting much better at understanding and investigating wildfire fatalities, so I’ve read.
Strange. Looking at the AZCentral article “21 videos show chaos surrounding Yarnell Hill Fire deaths,” published yesterday.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
Apparently, according to this article, neither Brendan nor the families nor their lawyers had seen the videos before they were released on Saturday. And the lawyers are po’d about that.
And then there are these ‘gems’ in the USATODAY article.
Apparently ( according to their own published statement on their webiste ), Arizona Forestry says that NONE of this ‘previously unpublished evidence’ entered into THEIR possession until Friday, November 7.
But some simple Prescott Fire Department Captain named J. P. Vincente was aware this was going to happen WEEKS ago… and HE is the one who (supposedly) was ‘warning’ the families it was coming ( but NOT Brendan McDonough himself? ).
WTF?
The USATODAY article…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
The article also says…
——————————————–
Roxanne Warneke, whose husband, Billy Warneke, was one of the 19 men killed, watched the videos in her Marana home. For her, there still are questions. Would the redacted portions have provided those answers?
In one of the video clips, just 29 seconds long, a man says, “I don’t have anybody else that I feel comfortable sending that way.”
Warneke says that sounds as if someone had specifically sent the Granite Mountain crew into the area where they were trapped and killed.
——————————————–
What is NOT clear in the report above is WHEN Roxanne Warneke (quote) “watched the videos in her Marana home”.
Was that BEFORE Friday?
Were ALL of the family members given such an opportunity to ‘watch the videos’ before they were released… but Brendan McDonough was NOT?
Brendan is quoted directly on this USATODAY article…
—————————————————————–
That lookout was Brendan McDonough, the only surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
He told The Republic on Saturday night that he had not seen the videos or heard the audio.
“It’s not a surprise to me, but I haven’t seen it. I don’t know anything about it,” said McDonough, who lives in Prescott and works for the Boise, Idaho-based Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
“I try to stay out of the politics as much as possible,” he said of the footage. “It’s a huge tragedy, and there’s a lot more people than me involved, and there’s a lot more people that know more than I do.
“I just have the memories of the times with my brothers.”
—————————————————————–
Interesting.
So, from Brendan’s perspective, ANY new ‘evidence’ about what happened in Yarnell that weekend is ( to him ) just ‘politics’.
It’s also pretty interesting that he says this…
“It’s a huge tragedy, and there’s a lot more people than me involved, and there’s a lot more people that know more than I do.”
Really?
A ‘lot more people’ that know a ‘more than you do’ about WHAT, Brendan?
About WHY they were really moving when there was no good reason for them to be doing so… or just about the whole fire in general?
WHO are these ‘lot more people’ being referred to?
Brendan practically just admitted that he KNOWS that there are still some people that might be PROTECTING others ( but not him ) with regards to this incident and that anyone interested in knowing more about that needs to ‘look upstream’.
If Brendan really has been having an ‘epiphany’ and wants to share more about what he knows… he just missed an excellent opportunity to do just that.
Seems there are currently two main media narratives circulating out there.
First, AZCentral’s one, posted yesterday, and now an AP one, posted today.
The USAToday article is the AZCentral one.
The AP story is, essentially, a mixtape of the AZCentral story.
It’s been a little confusing.
Apparently, Brendan is still serving as a microphone for his lawyer(s).
Epiphany or not.
While a certain wife of a certain fallen hotshot side-eyes him across a Prescott parking lot.
Picking my way thru all the videos.
So much stuff here. It’s gonna take some time to process it all.
“C’mon Granite, let’s hear you talk here.”
I spent the weekend reading John MacLean’s “The Esperanza Fire: The agony of Engine 57.”
The (burned and deceased) captain of that engine was pilloried by the Powers That Be for, essentially, doing something stupid. Not everybody agreed to that judgement.
Can we please have a real investigation of this fire?????
Thank you, JD, for posting these videos!!
I posted a bunch of comments that didn’t get posted because something went wrong–I don’t know what. And now I can’t even read them, much less copy/paste them.
These videos are mostly of the Prescott NF crew going in, w/the Blue Ridge Hotshots, after the burnover, through the fire, to eventually the deployment site. Which we have been recently discussing, most likely they would have filmed. And it’s great to see/hear this video.
HOWEVER.
To me, it appears the extent of the video is more to the LATER than the earlier EARLIER timeframe. Thus we don’t have, here, what we were REALLY hoping for–the conversations among the Granite Mountain Hotshots regarding their options and the possible conflicted conversation about heading down into the bowl in order to get to Boulder Springs Ranch, and other interactions with them as they did that.
I am seriously confused about what is going on here.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 9, 2014 at 11:58 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> To me, it appears the extent of the video is more to the LATER
>> than the earlier EARLIER timeframe. Thus we don’t have, here,
>> what we were REALLY hoping for–the conversations among
>> the Granite Mountain Hotshots regarding their options and
>> the possible conflicted conversation about heading down
>> into the bowl in order to get to Boulder Springs Ranch, and
>> other interactions with them as they did that.
These videos prove that Aaron Hulburd was a true ‘videophile’.
He was feeling the need to film EVERYTHING that was happening while he was there… and he was THERE for quite some time even before going to Shrine road or participating directly in the ground rescue mission.
It is NOT credible to think there isn’t even MORE Hulburd video that has yet to see the light of day.
The credibility of Arizona Forestry and the US Forestry Service is absolutely ZERO at this point. I don’t trust a word coming out of their mouths.
It really is time we heard from Aaron Hulburd himself.
Aaron? Are you there?
What’s the real scoop, buddy?
Did you have the GM intra-crew programmed into your radio?
Could you hear any of that GM intra-crew radio traffic that day?
If so… what did YOU HEAR?
If so… what did YOU really RECORD?
Were you INTERVIEWED by anyone?
Did you ( and Clawson and Yowell ) provide standard ‘Unit Logs’ with your own accounts of this day in your own words?
If so… WHO did you give those to… and WHERE are they now?
The videos are not, actually, in chronological order.
The first three, with date/time in their title, were taken at 3:32, 3:33, and 3:34 PM. They show a burn-out being done along a road. I don’t know where that road is.
The next one, M2U00261, was taken while Todd Abel was flying recon on the fire and just before Willis’ crew abandoned their (as Bravo 3 was warning them) hopeless, wasted, mission of protecting Double A Bar Ranch.
The video is taken at the Incident Command Post parking lot.
It was taken WAY before 3:33 PM. I don’t remember exactly when Willis’ crew abandoned the ranch but wasn’t it around 2 PM?
Then the Shrine Road sequence begins.
If there are more videos between the Incident Command Post video and the Shrine Road sequence, then somebody changed the file numbers.
The PNF three crossed the A2A video camera at 4:13 PM.
And, according to “Structure Protections Group 1 Unit Log.pdf, Darrell’s Unit Log (even tho “Group 1” is a typo), at 1430, “Gave Command to for resources to leave ranch. Fire adtivity very active ROS increasing. Fire is in a line East to West against the structures.”
And, at 1445, “Gave command to fire out along East side of main road as the resources evacuated.”
And he logged that the firing project along Model Creek Road ran from about 3 to 3:30 PM.
“Blues Brothers” video at Incident Command Center that has the PNF vehicles in it was started at 3:15 PM.
So, it’s possible the firing that the helmet-cam captures is that firing along Model Creek Road.
Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s father ( also named Brian Frisby ) made a PUBLIC comment regarding the newly released videos about 3 hours ago over at the PrescottNews website.
Sounds like even the families of the Blue Ridge Hotshots are pretty sick of this ‘gag order’ that has been placed on their loved ones by the very US Forest Service they work for which is preventing their full involvement with the incident from being discussed in a free and open manner.
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/24466-21-videos-released-by-the-asfd-of-the-yarnell-hill-fire
PUBLIC comment from Brian Frisby ( senior )…
————————————————————
My son and his crew were heroes that day. The Blue Ridge Hotshots and a few others risked their lives trying to save their Granite Mountain Brothers. Sadly, nobody has paid any attention to or gives a dam aabout this act of true heroism. Does anybody care how this has affected these guys and their families? They lost and ended up burying 19 of their closest brothers.
————————————————————
I seriously doubt that either Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown ( or any Blue Ridge Hotshot ) would even ‘accept’ any kind of ‘award’ that someone might want to bestow on them for their actions that day… but I will bet a sawbuck they would like to simply TELL THEIR STORY their own way, in their own words, without the interference of the US Forestry Service.
The WHOLE story. No REDACTIONS.
Maybe very soon they will get the chance to do that.
I certainly hope so.
What I just wrote in response to Brian Frisby’s post there:
“I totally give a damn and I agree! Your son was a HERO, Trew was a hero, Ball was a hero. I’ve been writing that for MONTHS on Investigative Media. My heart goes out to you, Brian’s mother, BRIAN, and the whole Blue Ridge Crew!!!
I believe this fire was seriously mismanaged from the start, totally under-resourced, and the investigation was hastily done and the USFS gag orders, although understandable in a historical context, have additionally contributed to your son’s (and many others) not being able to do what they need to do–speak their truth and tell their stories and be, therefore, honored for the serious intelligence, courage, heroism they gave to this fire and to their brothers, and, therefore being lifted up and HONORED.”
Marti… if you left that comment on the article site… it has either been DELETED or was never posted as a valid ‘comment’.
However… just 2 hours ago… ( and right under her father’s comment ) we now hear directly from Brian Frisby’s SISTER, who also seems upset that the world still doesn’t know the ‘full story’ of what her brother and Blue Ridge saw, heard, and had to go through that fateful day…
———————————————-
Carisa Frisby · Content and Audience Coordinator at Informa Exhibitions
Still chokes me up seeing and hearing what my brother dealt with that day and each day since. Heart breaking
———————————————-
The Forestry Service keeps waving that banner saying “We take care of our own”.
Forget about the ‘gag’ order(s) and what it might be doing to the people involved.
If BOTH Brian Frisby’s father AND sister are suggesting that ‘Blue Ridge’ really has been having a rough time with all of this… is the damn US Forestry Service ‘taking care of their own’ and making SURE these fellas get the right counseling and support services they might need?
Something tells me the answer to THAT question is a big, fat NO.
Interesting. I’ll have to check that. Maybe even repost what I wrote until it shows up.
And, don’t forget, Brian’s mom was saying, at the time of the anniversary, while her son was still fighting wildfires, including Slide Rock, that he was suffering mightily.
Oh, and, remember, that gallant USFS video in memory of Storm King, that they put out for the Memorial Week, essentially all about how IMPORTANT it is for fire-fighters who have been on a fatality fire to be able to TALK ABOUT IT for their own emotional and mental well-being.
Everything I have left to say about this is a long string of four-letter words.
Good thing I’m doing laundry today.
Picking my way thru all the videos.
So much stuff here. It’s gonna take some time to process it all.
“C’mon Granite, let’s hear you talk here.”
I spent the weekend reading John MacLean’s “The Esperanza Fire: The agony of Engine 57.”
The (burned and deceased) captain of that engine was pilloried by the Powers That Be for, essentially, doing something stupid. Not everybody agreed to that judgement.
Can we please have a real investigation of this fire?????
Thank you, JD, for posting these videos!!
I think it’s important to look at these videos for what they are, not what we wish they were. There’s a lot of information here.
That being said, we also need to ask what has possibly edited out of these videos.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 9, 2014 at 11:01 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I think it’s important to look at these videos for what they are, not
>> what we wish they were.
Totally agree.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There’s a lot of information here
You bet. Here’s a VERY short ( but important ) list…
Aaron Hulburd was a true-blue ‘videophile’. Someone who, if he is bothering to wear a Helmet Camera, is going to USE it. Constantly. With all that footage finally available it is now impossible to believe that Aaron Hulburd did NOT turn his Helmet Camera on at various points even BEFORE arriving on Shrine Road and there must be even MORE video with even MORE background radio capture.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33 really did NOT have any idea where GM was specifically located, even AFTER the final MAYDAY exchange. In one of the the videos we hear him reporting that ‘somewhere on the southeast side of the fire’ was the ‘best guess he could make’.
John Burfiend also confirms that VLAT 910 did, in fact, report hearing Eric Marsh calling up from the deployment site AFTER the end of the video that records the 1639 MAYDAY calls. That could still possibly match the 1648 moment when the pilot of Helicopter 5KA was ALSO telling Thomas French ( on Air-To-Air ) that he ALSO thought (quote) “Divsion A just called you”. That would put Eric Marsh ( and others? ) ‘still alive’ as late as 1648, which would change all the ‘fire progression’ assumptions reported in the SAIR.
Frisby and Brown were not WAITING for either Clawson ( alone in his ATV ) or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( together in Yowell’s red ATV ) to ‘keep up with them’ as they charged out west on the rescue mission. Clawson might have been ‘keeping up’ with Frisby and Brown but Hulburd and Yowell were lagging far behind and had to just ‘follow the tracks’ of the others. It even looks like Frisby and Brown could have cared less that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were even participating in that rescue mission. Frisby and Brown knew what they had to do, and how to get out there, and they headed to the Shrine Road area themselves to accomplish just that. They just simply ‘met up’ with these ‘freelancing’ Bea Day Type 2 team off-the-radar hires on Shrine Road and then just sort of ‘let them’ tag along… but there is no evidence they ( Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) were ever ‘assigned’ to this rescue mission. They were truly ‘freelancing’ at that point and it should be wondered if they were even covered by Workers Compensation insurance during that ‘rescue mission’ since they weren’t even really ‘on the clock’ at this fire.
The videos appear to show both ‘Safety Officers’ Tony Sciacca AND ‘Marty Cole’ standing right there in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph as everyone was evacuating from the Youth Camp.
We do NOT see the Granite Mountain buggies go by. That also seems to have been ‘edited’ out. We also only see ONE of the Blue Ridge Buggies heading out.
Tony Sciacca has testified that he actually just THOUGHT the Granite Mountain crew were in their buggies as he saw those buggies pass him and that is why he wasn’t all that concerned about them… even at a time ( 4:20 PM ) when there was still plenty of time for him to VERIFY their whereabouts, their status, and their ‘safety’.
Yet… in these videos… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell says clearly ( to someone ) that he ONLY saw DRIVERS in the Granite Mountain buggies. That is why Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were so concerned about Granite Mountain in this same timeframe. THEY knew Grainte had NOT ‘evacuated’ yet… but the actual Safety Officer who was standing right there ( Tony Sciacca ) thought they WERE ‘in the buggies’.
More ‘total fail’ and miscommunication that day.
More ‘holes in the swiss cheese’ still continuing to ‘line up’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> That being said, we also need to ask what has possibly
>> edited out of these videos.
Yes… and it’s also pretty obvious there is probably even MORE video that hasn’t even been released (yet). They are still just ‘picking and choosing’ what to release in response to valid, legal FOIA requests… as they have both been doing since day one. The trust level is ZERO right now as far as Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service goes.
In some of the videos… someone has simply ‘erased’ parts of the audio track while leaving the video running. What’s up with that? What is being SAID either by the men in the foreground or over the radio during that run out to the west ridge that the FEDS still don’t want anyone to hear?
And I will say it again ( I’m going to turn into a broken record on this one )…
WHERE are the official written (unredacted) ‘Unit Logs’ for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… and/or the complete INTERVIEW transcripts that surely must exist for all three of these ‘key’ players in the incident?
If I actually believed/trusted either AZ Fire or the USFS, I would conclude that the videos that end with an “R” are the ones that USFS (and only the USFS) redacted.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe/trust either of them, at this point.
Here is what I believe US Forestry was doing with the ‘R’ suffix on just SOME of those newly released Hulburd video clips.
If they felt they had to CUT just SOME parts of one of the videos clips they were going to release as far as VIDEO ( blackout the screen ) or the AUDIO ( erase it but keep the video running )… and they KNEW these ‘edits’ were going to remain ‘visible’…
…then they felt the need to put an ‘R’ on the end of the filename.
If they were simply CUTTING video from either the START or the END of this footage they had in their possession… then they did NOT feel the need to indicated it has been ‘Redacted’ in any way.
Example…
Video clip M200264 is the one that actually captures the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘met up’ with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine.
The video ENDS with these men all ‘greeting’ each other and then we KNOW that for the next TWO full minutes… Frisby and Brown were giving them a full ‘intel’ report. ( They said so in their own Unit Logs and the GPS tracking data confirms the 2+ minutes they spent doing that. )
Video MU00264 just abruptly ENDS right after the men have said ‘hello’ to each other.
It is not credible to believe that Aaron Hulburd himself would have chosen that moment to turn his Helmet Camera OFF.
It just wouldn’t make any sense for him to have done so, give the content and the nature of his filming habits as revealed by all this new video.
So I believe that is a HUGE ‘cut’ at the end of the M2U00264 video specifically designed to ERASE the content of that meeting between those men…
…but there is no ‘R’ on the M200264 filename.
There are also some videos that have the FACES of some people in some vehicles ‘pixelized’ so that they cannot be recognized.
Even THOSE video clips have no ‘R’ on the end to indicate they were edited and ‘altered’ at all.
So yes… TRUST level is at an absolute ZERO at this point.
And thanks for the summary.
That “C’mon Granite, let’s hear ya talk” comment is so painful to hear.
I’m having trouble orienting the fire “breakthrough” location(s).
It seems there’s one first one further south on Shrine Rd where they’re looking at a bunch of smoke and flames and venting propane tanks in front of them, and they first go through that.
Then there’s the big one further in where they spend a bit of time talking about not becoming “part of the problem.”
The burning area they have to extremely carefully get through as quickly as possible looks to be to the left (west) of them. I can’t figure out where that is.
They really did risk their lives. And, yes, if anything had “happened” to them, they might not have been covered, since they weren’t officially assigned, as far as we know.
I’m not getting the same sense that you are that Brian and Trew were so nonchalant about the three PNF guys going with them. They named themselves “Task Force 1.” I don’t think they would have done that if they weren’t including the other two UTVs. A task force isn’t just one vehicle.
It also seems to me the PNF guys (via their comments) are thinking GM is closer to them than to the ridge on the west side of the fire. And it seems to me that B33’s comment that he thinks GM is on the SE corner may have confirmed that inaccuracy in their minds.
It also seems to me (although that conversation is really hard to hear) that, by the time BR is telling them what they think Eric was “deciding,” BR thinks GM is much closer to the west ridge than to Shrine Road.
But I’m still not sure BR was sure they knew what road GM had descended on. They still could have been thinking GM might have descended on the road they went in on.
I find it really weird that the YouTube account that AZFS is posting all these videos to doesn’t actually show all these videos–you have to access them via their website:
https://azsf.az.gov/new-video-clips
What is that all about???
Arizona Forestry must have their actual YouTube account totally ‘locked up’ and ‘private’… and they have only flipped the ‘Public Video’ switch on THESE videos they uploaded to some folder under that ‘private’ YouTube account/channel.
Makes you wonder what ELSE might be sitting ‘right there’ in that account.
The EMBED code for these videos also works ( so anyone can be displaying these videos on their own web pages ) so that means these videos really DO have the ‘Public Video’ flag set up on that ‘private’ YouTube account.
OK these finally got thru moderation.
It’s been a very long day.
You accidentally had the two extra characters ‘ma’ on the end of your NAME for those posts. The name you were trying to post under was ‘Marti Reedma’ instead of just ‘Marti Reed’… The WordPress software is probably using a ‘whitelist’ at this point but that specific name wasn’t ‘on the list’ and the default behavior then is to have the comment fall into ‘moderation’ first.
Same is true for the EMAIL field when it comes to WordPress.
You could sign a comment with the same NAME you always use… but if you suddenly use a different email address ( or even just mis-type your regular one ) then WordPress will also see you as a ‘new commenter’.
LOL. The dangers of posting around midnight after a REALLY long day…….
A quick note haven’t had time to review all the video but from what I understand from AZ Fire and John there is a lot not included that the FS felt we should not hear. Protecting there employees etc. that’s to bad maybe John or someone will shake it lose and get all. We are being fed crumbs rather than the whole slice of bread.
Will have to calculate how much we were fed and how much we are not seeing/hearing out of 43 min. if that is the correct time.
So I added up 42 min. 9 sec. so how much more of the video is there?
Did they release roughly 43 min and there is a lot more?
Was there more at the beginning that was held back?
It left more questions than it answered as of now.
Just watched all the new videos. There is a lot of it. Do not think I heard any communication between GM and/or Eric and anyone else prior to the breaking in call, but I could be wrong. Look at video 271 – this involves someone from BR saying something about what GM was doing and something about their lookout. May be nothing but would like to hear what he said. There are skips between the videos, at one point the recorder says it had been off for 2-3 minutes.
Newly released Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Cam clip M2U00271 is just part of what I have suspected existed all along. This particluar clip is, in fact, that moment when Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown ‘paused’ for a few minutes at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot during their evacuation from the Youth Camp and were then talking with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( who was filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
This video is only 59 seconds long.
The Blue Ridge GPS data says there were right there having this conversation for more than TWO minutes… so obviously we are only hearing HALF of their conversation with them.
Transcribing all newly released videos now. Stay tuned. This one is FIRST on the list.
mike… correction for above.
I had ALL of the 21 new videos open on the screen when I made that post above and I got confused about the filenames.
M2U00264 is the video that actually ‘ends’ with the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘meet up’ with Prescott National Forest ‘off the radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( the one filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( the chatty guy with the beard and the radio in his hand ).when they were ‘evacuating’ from the Youth Camp.
M2U00271 ( which contains the audio you mention ) is actually part of the moment(s) when Frisby and Brown RETURNED to the Shrine Road Area in their Polaris Ranger in order to try and find a way to ‘break through’ and go find Granite Mountain.
THAT is when we HEAR Frisby telling Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell about his last contact with Eric Marsh.
We actually do NOT hear ANY of that 2 minute ‘intel report’ that Frisby and Brown said they gave to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell as they were evacuating from the Youth Camp and stopped to talk to them in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. All we hear is the men ‘greeting’ each other in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and then the video abruptly ‘cuts off’.
I believe that is heavy ‘redaction’ there at the end of M2U0064 that was performed by the US Forestry Service with the direct intent of NOT letting anyone hear what Blue Ridge Superintendent Frisby and Captain Brown actually ‘reported’ to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell at that time.
I had said before that even if we ever saw more Helmet-Cam video that there was a good chance that crucial meeting between Frisby, Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell would end up being ‘edited out’ of whatever was released and that appears to be exactly what the US Forestry has done here.
One thing that is very striking in these new video clips is the actual extent to which these three Bea Day Type 2 team ‘off the radar’ hires who ( as far as we know ) never had any actual ‘assignments’ on this fire and were technically just ‘freelancers’ were involved in what what happening and even ‘giving orders’ to the other firefighters who DID have ‘official assignments’ on that fire that day.
It is still NOT credible that these men ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) would NOT have been fully interviewed by the SAIT and/or ADOSH during their investigation(s).
It’s nice to see the video that has always been suspected to exist finally showing up… but WHERE are the ‘Unit Logs’ and/or ‘Interviews’ for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?
Copy, And I agree.
AZF says
“On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.”
What does this supposedly mean and is it even remotely believable?
This fire has, IMHO, not even been remotely contained.
We can only hope that the original still exists and is not in the hands of the FS.
As a Retired FS WLFF I am totally disgusted with the Forest Service and what they are doing.
What happened to the openness and real investigation to move forward with lessons learned?
Repressing the facts and information accomplishes nothing but distrust in the system.
For crying out loud this wasn’t even there fire.
Aaron, I’m sure, has the original video. No photographer/videographer would EVER lose custody of their original (without copying it) without a huge fight.
You ALWAYS hand over COPIES.
There is a partial transcript of Frisby’s words in the Az Republic article. He said that they were in the black and then Eric decided that there was a trail that kind of ran along the ridge……..green. I hear exactly that, can not make out the tiny bit before the word “green”.
Frisby’s words would suggest the move was Marsh’s idea. Marsh was heard elsewhere saying they were moving to their safety zone. That has been roundly criticized as being obtuse, but could that not have been exactly what they were doing? They were headed for the ranch – which had been identified as a safety zone. A guy in video 264 says there were 2 engines there at the ranch. Could it just be that – they either thought something was wrong staying where they were or they did not want to stay – and then thought they could reach the ranch safely?
I have another question. There has been debate about whether GM had reached its work limit – 13 or 14 days – some have suggested that they should never have been sent. Was GM going to be relieved the next day – was that planned or required? If they were going to be going home, would that have motivated them to get to the ranch and closer to their buggies?
Mike I have said all along that the ranch was a bad location for a safety zone for GM. To Far, Down Hill, heavy brush, lost sight of fire.
For crews at Helms Ranch or on the road near Helms ranch a good safety zone if things went south.
You just don’t ID a safety zone over a mile from where you are working You should never stretch that far 100 to 200 yards is the outside of a escape plan.
So your last sentence is what I have tried to say all along end of shift get off the mountain Wrong choice stay in black and Waite it out then hike off. Or go down and drop off the back side into the desert and to Hwy. 89 about 1 and 1/2 miles as the crow flies but no heavy brush. The fire never burned very far off the top of the ridge. With no brush to contend with they would have made good time Helms ranch was always a bad choice for them
they gust got it in there head that’s where they needed to go.
There Hillbilly rules (the 10) modern Fire Fighters don’t need to follow them as McDonough was taught by Marsh/Steed……….
Reply to mike post on November 9, 2014 at 5:08 pm
>> mike said…
>>
>> There is a partial transcript of Frisby’s words in the Az Republic
>> article. He said that they were in the black and then Eric decided
>> that there was a trail that kind of ran along the ridge……..green.
>> I hear exactly that, can not make out the tiny bit before the
>> word “green”.
I don’t believe there is any ‘tiny bit’ of any conversation before Frisby says the word ‘green’ there. I’ve enhanced the audio there and I believe Frisby was just pausing… or might have just said ‘uh’ before saying ‘green’.
Here is what I have ( so far ) for that part of that particular video…
—————————————-
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
——————————————————
>> mike also wrote…
>>
>> Frisby’s words would suggest the move was Marsh’s idea.
Yes. They do.
I’m actually reading that as an ‘incomplete thought’ from Frisby that he never really finished. Frisby starts to tell KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that Eric had ‘decided’ something but then just physically describes the ‘trail’ ( heading south ) that he saw with his own eyes when he was up there from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM… and he never really ‘completed his thought’ and told KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell exactly what it was that he seemed to know Marsh had ‘decided’.
Frisby statement again is…
“Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around.”
Decided WHAT?
That the trail ‘goes around’?
I don’t think so. Marsh already KNEW it ‘went around’ as it headed south.
I think Frisby knew more than he actually ended up saying there and ( perhaps ) meant to report “Eric decided they were gonna take that trail and head south.”
Even if that isn’t what Frisby really MEANT to report to Yowell ( but didn’t complete his thought )… notice that at NO time does Frisby say that he thought Eric or Jesse had ‘decided’ to ‘head to a ranch to the north’ as the SAIR document specifically says.
I still believe that statement in the SAIR about Brian Frisby ‘believing’ that Marsh was ‘headed to ranch to the NORTH’ was total fiction made up by the SAIT and they put that thought into Frisby’s head ( and the words into his mouth ) only to justify their own pre-determined narrative.
>> mike also wrote…
>>
>> Marsh was heard elsewhere saying they were moving to their
>> safety zone. That has been roundly criticized as being obtuse,
>> but could that not have been exactly what they were doing?
>> They were headed for the ranch – which had been identified
>> as a safety zone.
Once again… we are seeing more evidence of the ‘total fail’ that took place that day with regards to ONE group of Hotshots being ‘briefed’ by SPGS Gary Cordes about a ‘Safety Zone’… and then just one hour later the NEXT group of Hotshots working the SAME area received no such briefing.
It still seems ( even in these new videos ) that Brian Frisby had no frickin’ idea where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was or that it had been designated as the ‘Safety Zone’ that morning for the other Hotshots who got to the same area before them.
I still believe that if Brian Frisby HAD been properly ‘briefed’ before being placed in that area that day… there is a good chance he would have FULLY understood all of Eric’s transmissions’ that mentioned ‘the ranch’ and ‘our escape route’ and there is also a good chance Brian Frisby could have then done an ‘intervention’.
Frisby was looking at the fire behavior up close and personal from a better perspective than even Marsh or Steed had way out on that ridge.
If Frisby had known where the Boulder Springs Ranch really was, and that it was the place Marsh was talking about ‘heading to’… I think Brian Frisby might have actually said to Marsh…
“You don’t have TIME for that. STAY where you ARE.”
Frisby never got the chance to say that to Marsh.
Frisby was NOT properly ‘briefed’ that day… and that just became one more hole in the swiss cheese that ‘aligned’ later that afternoon.
>> mike also said
>>
>> A guy in video 264 says there were 2 engines there at the ranch.
That actually doesn’t match some testimony from DJ Helm, who was
at the ranch. She said she never saw ANY firefighters there at the ranch
in the timeframe we are talking about. I will go check that out.
Whoever was saying that on the radio may have been mistaken… and just THOUGHT that is were ‘2 engines’ were around that time.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Could it just be that – they either thought something was wrong
>> staying where they were or they did not want to stay – and then
>> thought they could reach the ranch safely?
There was NOTHING wrong with staying where they were… other than the fact that it put them ‘out of the game’ for a while until they could walk back to town.
There is still no doubt they THOUGHT they had time to reach the ranch.
They must have. They weren’t insane.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> I have another question. There has been debate about whether
>> GM had reached its work limit – 13 or 14 days – some have
>> suggested that they should never have been sent. Was GM
>> going to be relieved the next day – was that planned or required?
>> If they were going to be going home, would that have motivated
>> them to get to the ranch and closer to their buggies?
At one point in Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview… he was describing this alleged ‘argument’ they had and Marquez just honestly told the ADOSH investigators that he thought Marsh felt like Marquez was trying to ‘take real estate away from him for the next day’.
That sounds like Marquez had the impression that Marsh was thinking about ‘the next day’ even while fighting the fire on June 30.
If ( on the other hand ) Both Marsh and Steed KNEW that there was no way they were going to even be ALLOWED to work the ‘next day’… and all they wanted to do was end THAT work day and go home safely…
…then they really DID make ‘all the wrong decisions’ to accomplish that goal.
All they had to do was wait 20 to 30 minutes where they were… and they could have walked back down the same road the ground rescue team took to try and find them.
Sunday, June 30, 2013 was Granite Mountain’s scheduled day off and the 13th day in a row of work. The federal rules allow 14 consecutive days of work.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshot-crew-sent-to-yarnell-fire-on-scheduled-day-off/
Copy. Thank you!
I periodically tweet this page via the hashtags #YarnellHillFire and #wildfire. If you want to bring more eyes to this conversation, you should, too!
Elizabeth,
Whoops! It appears that you have put your Logical Phallacy phoot in your mouth once again.
Woops! It appears you put your comment in the wrong location~
Bob Powers and Fred Schoeffler said the helmet camera was going to be released by ADOSH days ago. But yet it is not here. Before you start rumors, guys, do your research first, ok?
Also, as best I can tell, there is zero validity to the rumor Bob and Fred keep trying to start that Brendan has some big secret he is withholding and refusing to share and only now willing to share.
Given how much pain you went through, Bob, when you lost your dad, it is really disappointing and baffling that you are willing to cause pain to others by starting rumors and creating needless drama. Facts can be good, but rumors and drama can be incredibly hurtful and mean to people who are already grieving.
Just my opinion, with no disrespect intended.
Not Rumors as to the Video Head cam and as to McDonough giving testimony to Lawyers In a deposition. Information as to there release I classed as rumors since I had no direct facts as to when or official release.
I do not purposely attempt to cause any Pain to others. My lessons learned were yes I felt a great loss for my Father. As I grew older and learned the information about the fire I could say that yes my father made mistakes that could have changed the outcome. The number 1 thing was Posting a Lookout. He had an opportunity to do that and did not as in many accidents its the little and simple things that change what happens.
So back to the Head Cam It in fact was viewed by Families and others recently and is to be released if you are so close to the families maybe you should talk to them.
Yes Elizabeth I disrespect you and your ignorance.
We search for and discuss information here that is what investigations do no matter how thin or questionable the information as a Law professor you should know that.
There is reliable information out there that is out of your reach but with in my Wild land fire circles that are close to the Fire Fighters that were in Yarnell.
So I would say wait and see or show me your facts that would contradict mine.
Actually every body here has asked you that question to date you have shown nothing.
I will leave it at that
Yes I protect my sources because they are my WFF Brothers and there requests are sacred to me. You seem to not have that willingness to protect those that you said you would keep there identity to your self.
I have no trust Elizabeth in those that turn on others with no remorse, yes I have a code of ethics that I have lived by all my life.
I have posted the new Yarnell Hill video released today by the Forestry Division in response to public records request filed by InvestigativeMEDIA.
Collura, Joy A says
NOVEMBER 8, 2014 AT 6:46 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Now ours was not rumor about what was said at the media fence and again in Prescott yet a person on here did call again to that official and now what was a 3 day hiking plan/cowboy campfire (where Sonny has been building the horno) with an official and Prescott business owner and such was squashed at today’s meeting in a kind sweet sort of way with the gentleness that the fire department will do such if need be and there seems to not be a need all of a sudden. So there is no hike with what Sonny earlier stated and I confirmed and the mayor is not taking the hike with the hikers. Maybe now all the calls will cease to him. I PROMISE you all if we hike someone and they don’t want their name revealed we still will always keep folks in the loop because for us this is not about brotherhood or pacts or any thing but just the hikers who eye witness the fire and if anyone wants to get a feel for it—I get it. It is sad. It breaks us up to be up there but we will for clarity and truth.
I just ran into old friends and they say I look haggard so I may not be eager to hike lately but we will and we still have quite a few still pending and there is one person who is always welcome on any of our hikes and that person is a family member to one of the fallen. Good night. I guess I have got to learn about you all here and I just do not see any of us putting things out for creation but as we hear it; heads up…I just like both of you that commented here and I think it is that value of time we all should see in this not who says what –where-when—etc—it is 50-50 on the grieving process yet there is stuff due to come out because Bob is not the only area we heard it from—some Prescott locals too…
Bob and Fred: The person who told me that Robert-the-Second was Fred Schoeffler was was not Fred himself but, rather, it was a guy who worked closely with Fred for years. He was able to tell who Fred was here on IM and what names Fred was posting under based on having worked closely with Fred and having heard Fred’s conspiracy theory for years and having heard Fred talk about logical fallacies and all that for years. So don’t pin that on me.
Apparently when guys live, work, sleep, and travel together for a long, long time, they get used to each others’ way of communicating and trains of thought, such that it apparently becomes easier to figure out (for them!) who “Robert-the-Second” and various other anonymous names that he posts under are (e.g. Fred). (To be candid, of the many anonymous WFFs who are talking to me, I have never heard another one use the phrase “logical fallacy” the way that Fred does, but that is beside the point.)
I do not betray good, honest WFFs who contact me to tell me things off the record, nor would I. And there are a gaggle of them who can confirm that. So please stop making it seem like *I* somehow violated a confidence that Fred himself entrusted to me. That is not true, and I will keep defending myself every time you bring it up, Bob.
You are quite the SPINSTRESS when it comes to making yourself look good to the public. You are a real piece of work. Some one from New York would not even know what a good Honest Wild Land Fire Fighter Is You Have No Clue.
OH and Logical Fallacy is your handle on your Web site that you talk to your self on. STOP THE BS———-
You continue to attack people on here instead of adding to the conversation. Elizabeth who cares who each of us are most here do not.
You are obsessed with attacks on who is who .
You no longer impress me go find another sand box to play in………
Again, Bob, I am not a spinstress – I am telling the truth, and Fred Schoeffler (or Robert-the-Second or whatever he wants us to call him on here) can confirm it. I had never even HEARD of the name “Fred Schoeffler” before one of Fred’s former colleagues told me that Robert-the-Second (or whatever other anonymous name Fred uses on any given day to post on this blog or the wildfiretoday.com blog or wherever) was actually Fred Schoeffler. That’s not something I COULD have come up with by myself, because I do not know Fred. I am not spinning anything – again, you can ASK Fred yourself.
As to your suggestion that I am attacking someone, look at your own behavior, Bob.
Elizabeth remember all those E-Mails you sent me………
Forget it you are not worth the time to answer you any more.
Your Fixation on Fred and you attempts to attack him answers every thing I have said not attacking you just telling the truth.
I have posted the new Yarnell Hill video released today by the Forestry Division in response to public records request filed by InvestigativeMEDIA.
Thank you, John.
THANK YOU JOHN DOUGHERTY FOR THIS PAGE FOR ALL OF US TO JOIN TOGETHER TO EXPRESS OURSELVES.
THANK YOU.
I guess we are still waiting for the Head Cam release as it did not happen any time last week.
So I believe that WTKTT said that the lawsuit date is the 14th. Not sure that will cause a release of any thing. You would think some things should be coming to a head. Wish I had more info to give you
I wish I too had more information. I always share who we are going to meet or have met with yet now we learned by us sharing on here that at some point who we plan to hike than that person was getting calls as to share the more information…well, I get the interest in wanting to know what they know yet I also get BOTH sides due to the sensitivity of law suits and barriers and walls. I mean to this date I was offended by a local couple back in April 08-Jan. 09′ and in that I got agitated and enough was enough but those folks have an axe to grind to the world as I took it personal back then…in time I learned this was a pattern to their lives and I was not the only person who seen such behavior yet to this date the couple carry on with their masked behind faith ways but doing another. For example, the man left a voice mail on machine lying and yet he is a devout Christian? The lady in a public spot states rubbish trying to get newcomers to buy into it yet if these two ever get to a spot I do not want to bother with them I have enough documented proof to end it with a restraining order and file charges but I don’t because to me they rather live a pipe dream of rubbish versus reality and I reckon them being almost 80 helps me not put them in the system. Point being. There has not been a bad hike yet. Even Shaun McKinnon who poorly reported his inaccuracies about the hikers I still liked the guy just felt he had a glaze to his story that was not truth and reality. I have been judged alot lately for how I am hiking folks out there but in the end I only have one to judge me and I will hold tight to Jim Posh’s statement; the value of time. It is important to make the HIGHER UPS see the whole package here. Time to rethink their current money market game- that is all. SAFETY MATTERS!
I’m going to repost this here at the top so it doesn’t get lost. I just wrote, somewhere down below, this, regarding the photos Joy sent out:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 2, around 11AM, starting from the Incident Command Post parking lot and traveling down the road showing all the various vehicles and the tents. That’s the series that includes Bitterroot Helitack Buggy, Minnesota Helitack Utility Truck, and Apple Valley Helitack (CA) Utility Truck.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 4, around 6:30 pm, of the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning right (west) onto Hays Ranch Road.
That’s when the evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted. That would explain the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning on to Hays Ranch Road.
The shadows in these photos match the timestamps.
I just downloaded ALL of these photos. They’re definitely worth looking at.
Thank you, Joy, for making them public via email, and THANK YOU to whoever took them.
I don’t know where all the June 30 photos were taken from. Given what I’m seeing of the rest of them (especially the ones from July 4, when the Peeple’s Valley evacuation was lifted), I’m guessing they were taken by someone living in Peeple’s Valley. They really show how dangerous the fire was looking to people living there. And WOW, I’ve never seen a cardinal (or a photo of one) in Arizona.
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.
But somehow they managed to take a series of photos on July 2 of the vehicles parked near the Incident Command Center.
This is a really great collection of photos of those critical first days of the fire. So THANK YOU JOY and THANK YOU to whoever took them.
So I’m putting all these photos in my Dropbox and here’s the link to them:
https://www.dropbox.com/home/public/Yarnell/2014-10%20Via%20Joy
I hope this works.
It works. It will take a little while for all the photos to upload.
Marti
The link only work for you, If you look at the html address it locates your HOME box, so when I put that up it wants to look in my home box
DT
Ooops! Thanks for the hedz up!
I’ll fix it and repost!
Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 12:04 PM
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30. Actually I sent Kathy and Connie’s photos which makes it 2 separate cameras.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.I will email her and ask and get back to you.
Thanks Joy!
The metadata from all the photos in your email has them all taken with a Nikon Coolpix S3300V 1.0. Unfortunately there doesn’t show a camera id number, so, if there were two people taking the photos, they were using the same kind of camera.
PS I don’t remember ever seeing a cardinal in Arizona, and there’s one in one of the photos. Interesting.
I’m FINALLY reading John MacLean’s book on the Esperanza Fire. Very well-written.
PS
I just downloaded those other photos you sent of the maps of the houses.
What are they?
Marti
when you are on your Dropbox home page, you will want to share a LINK of that folder and post the HTML code that Dropbox will create
DT
I just downloaded ALL of these photos. They’re definitely worth looking at.
ACTUALLY I AM TRYING TO ARRANGE APPOINTMENT WITH KATHY HUNTER GLOVER TO SEE PHOTOS AGAIN BECAUSE I WAS JUST FOCUSED TO SEEKING ANY FIRE PHOTO OR ANY WITH PEOPLE OR VEHICLES THAT NIGHT BUT SOMETHING TELLS ME I NEED TO MEET WITH HER FOR THEIR COMPLETE EVACUATION ACCOUNT AND RETURN.
Thank you, Joy, for making them public via email, and THANK YOU to whoever took them
.I DID GET KATHY HUNTER APPROVAL TO VIEW THIS PUBLICLY BETWEEN FOLKS I FEEL COULD HELP IN REACHING THE TRUTH OF THE YARNELL HILL FIRE. THIS AFFECTED SO MANY LOCALLY THAT ONE THING IN ALL THIS I DO RECALL MY HIKE WITH JIM POSH (COPY/PASTE FROM HIS SITE: who lost a brother in the Colorado fire, has the goal to make the best protective equipment for firefighters so that when training, tactics and safety procedures fail, a firefighter has a fighting chance of survival in a fast moving wildfire. Storm King Mountain™ tests these products in both laboratory and actual wildland fire conditions.) IN THAT HIKE WITH HIM AND HIS WIFE—I LEARNED THE TRUE VALUE OF TIME. IF HIS BROTHER HAD LESS THAN A MINUTE HE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. THANK YOU ALL FOR NOT SWEATING THE PETTY AGITATION I SHOWED ON THIS SITE EARLIER BUT IT SEEMS MY CELL AND LOCAL LIBRARIES AND HOME PC IS EITHER BEEN TAMPERED WITH BECAUSE I GO TO ANOTHER AREA THAT IS NEW AND MY POSTS GO RIGHT AWAY. YOU SEE THE VERY CAVES I WENT IN FOR SO MANY YEARS SONNY WOULD NEVER GO EVEN NEAR THEM…HE TAUGHT ME THE DANGERS BY HOW TO LOOK FOR IT IN SMELLS AND ROCKS AND WIDOW MAKERS. I WISH I COULD GO BACK IN TIME BECAUSE FRANK SERROS AND TOMMY MAIDEN AND COUPLE OTHERS THEY WERE WITH ME AND WE ALWAYS HIKED AND EXPLORED THOSE CAVES AND THEY ARE DEAD NOW. SONNY STRONGLY BELIEVES MY BODY WITH TUMORS WERE CAUSED BY THE HIGH CONCENTRATION OF ARSENIC, MERCURY AND CYANIDE. WHEN I HIKED WITH THOSE PEOPLE MARCH 2009-JUNE 2009 BY SEPTEMBER FRANKIE WENT IN FOR A HEADACHE TO HAVE THE MOST SEVERE BRAIN TUMOR THAT HE UNDERWENT SURGERY ASAP. IT LOOKED LIKE BY APRIL 2010 HE WAS DOING BETTER AND ON MY LOCAL HIKING PAGE YOU CAN SEE AFTER ALL THE CHEMO AND SURGERY HE WENT TO HIKE WITH ME AND HIS PROFESSOR BROTHER DR. RICHARD SERROS. I FELT PROUD EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT FRANKIE FROM APRIL 2009, THE EFFORT TO HIKE WAS THERE. IMMEDIATELY THE JOURNEY BEGAN ALL OVER FOR HIM THIS TIME THE TUMOR RAPIDLY GROWING AND AGAIN SURGERY BUT AFTER SO MUCH ATTACKS TO THE HEART AND ALL HE BECAME IN A VEGGIE STATE AND HE DIED FEB 2011. DURING THAT TIME HE PLEADED HE WAS HAVING PC PROBLEMS AND HE NEEDED AN EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE. I HAVE 2; ONE A BACKUP TO THE OTHER SO I ERASED THE ONE SO HE COULD BORROW IT. WELL, I WAS GOING FROM THE BEDROOM TO THE KITCHEN TO PLUG IN THE 1 EHD AND I HAD CONVULSIONS AND PASSED OUT LATER AWOKE TO A SMASHED UP EHD. THAT WAS A SAD DAY FOR ME BECAUSE CHARLES CASMIR LIPINSKI INVESTED $3,000 IN TRYING TO GET THE INFORMATION OFF IT BUT TO NO PREVAIL IT WAS BEYOND DAMAGED. I LOST ALL MY CULINARY ICE ART PICS AND ALL MY WORK AND FAMILY/FRIEND PICS; EVERYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH ME AND MY LIFE. I THAN REALIZED SOON AFTER I WOULD BEGIN TO GET HEALTH DIAGNOSIS THAT WERE FOREIGN TO MATCH UP TO ME. I AM A STUBBORN MULE. YOU ARE TELLING ME WHAT? I AM NOT GOING TO CLAIM THESE INSIDIOUS REMARKS SO I BEGAN TO GET MY OWN BLOOD WORK AND IT MATCHED TO THEIRS. I BEGAN TO DO THERMOGRAMS, MRIS AND CAT SCANS AND FOUND INACCURACIES. I GET I HAVE A BODY IN DIRE STRAITS AND ITS LIKE JIM ROTH STATED—THE VALUE OF TIME SO I KNOW I CAN GO HOME AND BE RELAXED AND BE AROUND LOVED ONES WHO DEARLY LOVE AND CARE FOR ME BUT I WILL DO WHAT I CAN TO KEEP BEING THERE AT THE RIGHT MOMENT FOR THAT ONE PERSON TO SAY “HEY, YOUR THE HIKERS…I HAVE PHOTOS/VIDEOS” AND I WILL BE THERE UNTIL THE DAY MY LAST BREATHE IS HERE ON EARTH. RECENTLY AND IT SEEMS LATE FALL LAST YEAR AND NOW THIS YEAR I GET FOLKS WHISPER TO ME TO BE CAUTIOUS OR WARN ME…NO JAIL TIME WILL BE IN MY CARDS IF EVERYTHING IS OF THE TRUTH AND JUST BECAUSE I REALLY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG. IF ANYTHING AS I RENEWED MY STATE LAND PASS THE STATE SHOULD THANK ME FOR THEIR INCREASE SALES IN STATE LAND PASSES. MAYBE THEY CAN TAKE FUNDS FROM THERE TO HELP PROPERLY ASSESS THIS FIRE VERSUS ROLLING THE BLAME DOWN HILL.
I WILL ALWAYS MAKE SURE ANYONE SAYING STEED SAY THIS OR MARSH DID THIS; SHOW ME. I REALLY FEEL SOMEONE WHO KNEW THEM WELL WILL FINALLY SHARE PUBLICLY ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT WERE THERE THAT DAY OF THE FIRE. THAT IS THE TRUE BRAVE HEROIC THING TO DO! I LOVE YOU ALL ON HERE THAT POST. I DO APOLOGIZE ABOUT MY RANTS OR RAVES OR AGITATION BUT IT DOES GET OLD TO TYPE ONE POST TO NEVER SEEING IT GO ON HERE-
I don’t know where all the June 30 photos were taken from. Given what I’m seeing of the rest of them (especially the ones from July 4, when the Peeple’s Valley evacuation was lifted), I’m guessing they were taken by someone living in Peeple’s Valley. They really show how dangerous the fire was looking to people living there. And WOW, I’ve never seen a cardinal (or a photo of one) in ArizonaYES, I WISH MORE LOCALS SHARED PUBLICLY..
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) I WAS TOLD 2 CAMERAS SO THAT IS INTERESTING-took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.I WILL ASK ABOUT THIS—
But somehow they managed to take a series of photos on July 2 of the vehicles parked near the Incident Command Center.
This is a really great collection of photos of those critical first days of the fire. So THANK YOU JOY and THANK YOU to whoever took them.YOU ARE WELCOME
Sorry to hear about your health problems. Agree, probably caused by being in the mines. Do they have warnings on them?
And sorry to hear about crashing your hard drive. I’m a stickler about back-up (I have 200k photos going WAY back). And now, thanks to the Yarnell HIll Fire, my back-up drive is full to the gills and I have to buy a new one.
You wrote:
” IF ANYTHING AS I RENEWED MY STATE LAND PASS THE STATE SHOULD THANK ME FOR THEIR INCREASE SALES IN STATE LAND PASSES. MAYBE THEY CAN TAKE FUNDS FROM THERE TO HELP PROPERLY ASSESS THIS FIRE VERSUS ROLLING THE BLAME DOWN HILL.”
I totally agree.
And this:
?I WILL ALWAYS MAKE SURE ANYONE SAYING STEED SAY THIS OR MARSH DID THIS; SHOW ME. I REALLY FEEL SOMEONE WHO KNEW THEM WELL WILL FINALLY SHARE PUBLICLY ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT WERE THERE THAT DAY OF THE FIRE. THAT IS THE TRUE BRAVE HEROIC THING TO DO!”
Also agree. What a vise they’ve trapped these people in, including, probably, Brendan. They not only need to talk honestly so the truth can get free, they need to talk for their own mental and emotional health!
I love how the USFS put out that Storm King Anniversary video this year, all about how people on a fatality fire need to be able to talk about it for their own well-being…….while holding the gag on everybody on this fire.
I have no negative thoughts about Brendan. He was a very young inexperienced fire-fighter caught in the middle of a very big tornado.
Someone needs to do a Lessons Learned regarding fatality fire investigations.
I had to scroll to bottom of page
tried 3 times to post with area it belong to.
Reply to Marti Reed:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
REPLY: Without having photos right in front of me I can only state that the person Kathy Hunter Glover who has a massive file of the fire from Friday to Sunday is how I was told and on her laptop in a very unorganized fashion were taken by her camera as well as Connie’s camera. I can tell you and answer Bob Powers again where he posted that at no time did I state Connie went back for meds but I did state IF she did as some others did on July 1st than I can buy that July 2nd time stamp versus June 30th, 2013. YCSO did let select few in for their medications. Also the time back for Peeples Valley was media reported 7-4-13 evening but some in evacuation were told they could not go back until 7-7-13 so that is where that confusion is because we were in the evacuation spot where the ones were told to stay until 7-7-13 but you are right many did return on 7-4-13 but non were allowed on highway 89 past Peeples Valley gas station.
(side note for the photos sent via email: Connie Callen’s photo that Kathy Hunter Glover had and shared were taken at 18409 s john fry in peeples valley. The blue ridge guy and 2 smoke stacks were taking at Chaz place 23074 s lakewood dr and the others were near helms at 17613 w westward. I hope this helps you. Any pics with pine trees were peeples valley Connies place. The one with blue home is lakewood and the other home is near helms on westward)
Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:53 AM
I have tried from 9am-11:53pm and I am not getting any posts on there-
my post:
I had to scroll to bottom of page
tried 3 times to post with area it belong to.
Reply to Marti Reed:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
REPLY: Without having photos right in front of me I can only state that the person Kathy Hunter Glover who has a massive file of the fire from Friday to Sunday is how I was told and on her laptop in a very unorganized fashion were taken by her camera as well as Connie’s camera. I can tell you and answer Bob Powers again where he posted that at no time did I state Connie went back for meds but I did state IF she did as some others did on July 1st than I can buy that July 2nd time stamp versus June 30th, 2013. YCSO did let select few in for their medications. Also the time back for Peeples Valley was media reported 7-4-13 evening but some in evacuation were told they could not go back until 7-7-13 so that is where that confusion is because we were in the evacuation spot where the ones were told to stay until 7-7-13 but you are right many did return on 7-4-13 but non were allowed on highway 89 past Peeples Valley gas station.
(side note for the photos sent via email: Connie Callen’s photo that Kathy Hunter Glover had and shared were taken at 18409 s john fry in peeples valley. The blue ridge guy and 2 smoke stacks were taking at Chaz place 23074 s lakewood dr and the others were near helms at 17613 w westward. I hope this helps you. Any pics with pine trees were peeples valley Connies place. The one with blue home is lakewood and the other home is near helms on westward)
the photos of the blue home-that is the intersection of W Fountain Hill and S Lakewood Drive. That blue home belonged to Kevin ODonnell Po Box 353 Yarnell Arizona 85362. He has a very interesting story. His home is rebuilt already and is an unusual home hue of like a mustard color with terra cotta trim if that helps distinguish location where the Blue Ridge man was.
Thanks Joy for the info on the location of the June 30 photos.
Regarding the downstream posts regarding both the photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy photo taken on July 2, 2013 and the photo taken that shows the long line of cars heading south on 89:
I wrote this downstream:
“Sorry to not get back sooner. My life, right now, is pretty much consumed by helping my 93-year-old mom, who isn’t doing very well.
Photo 112 was taken on, via its metadata, July 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM. Several other photos are in that series.
As someone who uses digital cameras A LOT, I think the DAY timestamp is probably accurate, although lot of times the HOUR timestamps can be seriously inaccurate.
It was apparently taken by the same camera that took the July 2 photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy..
It’s part of a series of photos showing a long line of cars driving south on 89 on July 4.
I have NO IDEA why all those cars were driving south on 89 on July 4.
It’s definitely NOT June 30, because the sky is clear, as opposed to how the sky would have looked on June 30.
I’m really sorry people are having such troubles posting here. I’ve had, myself, more obstacles, also.
Marti Thanks
Sorry about your mom but understand my wife has been in the same boat with her 98 year old Mom for the past 3 years after she fell. Take care———-
You’re welcome!
Yep, it’s a challenge! Fortunately, I love being at Manzano del Sol, the retirement center where she lives.
PS I looked and looked for an email from you, and couldn’t find one. So I don’t think I have your email address.
Marti check your face book
OK.
Hmmmm. Bob and WTKTT
I just discovered something. I forwarded the email Joy sent me w/the photo links to WTKTT, but the links themselves didn’t make it into the email. I don’t understand that.
So the fastest thing to do is put those photos into my dropbox and send you the link to the dropbox folder.
I haven’t downloaded all the photos, but what I have is enough to see what’s going on. And then I’ll download the rest and put them in that dropbox folder.
Ok. I realized I didn’t forward it correctly.
DOH
I’ve sent both of you Joy’s email with the photo links.
Got them Thanks
I got them all as well. Thank you, Marti.
I think the lingering ‘confusion’ over the Bitteroot’ vehicle photo comes down to this…
>> On November 5, 2014 at 9:50 am, Sonny said…
>>
>> Bob Powers that photo of the Bitterroot Bus was taken on June 30, 2013.
>> We just again verified it with the lady that took the photo. So took it as she
>> was evacuating, and once you were evacuated from the area you could not
>> return due to roadblocks on 89 that kept stringent restrictions;
Apparently… the person who TOOK the photo is convinced it was June 30,2013.
Sonny is absolutely right about ‘not being able to return’.
Once you left Yarnell on June 30, the area was locked up tight and citizens
(supposedly) weren’t allowed back into the area until July 7 ( Peeples Valley )
and July 8 ( Yarnell / Glen Ilah ). Even then… movement was tightly controlled.
So that makes any dates of July 2, 3, or 4 problematic since (supposedly) no one
was allowed to actually BE there taking any photos.
I am with Marti about how the TIMES can be wrong on a digitial camera, but rarely
is the DATE itself wrong. Even less likely if it was a smartphone.
So either someone’s camera was seriously OFF… or someone is not remembering things correctly ( like when a photo was actually taken )… or BOTH.
The “J- Resource Orders’ document itself seems to PROVE that no vehicle that belonged to the ‘Bitterrrot’ Helitack could have been there on June 30.
Even the ‘fulfillment notes’ in that document seem to verify that.
On PDF page 23 of “J- Resource Orders” the ‘fulfillment notes’ for orders A-21 ( the Bitterroot helicopter ) and A-21.1 through A-20.6 ( The Bitterroot Helitack crew ) start to appear.
The fulfillment note for the Bitterrot ‘Chase Truck’ itself says the ‘order’ wasn’t even filled until 3:07 PM on June 30, and it reiterates that 3 Bitterroot Helitack crew will be traveling with that ‘Chase Truck’ from Montana to Yarnell… with a RON ( Rest Overnight ) in either Idaho or Utah on the night of June 30 itself.
“A-21 Chase Truck: Dustin Strayer (COP – 541-279-1650), Joshua Oak, Russell Buzzell Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1507 MST”
START OF ALL FULFILLMENT NOTES FOR BITTERROOT CHOPPER AND HELITACK
——————————————————————
A-21
HELIBASE LOCATION: 34 16.166 X 112 44.388 HAYES RANCH ROAD, STICKLER RANCH FOLLOW PINK FLAGING. HELIBASE IS AT 4430′ ELEVATION CONTACT BOB ORTLUND ON CELL # 602-527-1207
Alyce Harris (AZ-ADC) 06/29/2013 2147 PNT
A-21 Unable to fill due to activity
April Cook (NV-WBC) 06/30/2013 0835 PST
A-21 Per SO no T3’s available.
Shaun Jensen (ID-NIC) 06/30/2013 0852 MST
A-21 Per EB no T3’s available.
Shaun Jensen (ID-NIC) 06/30/2013 0858 MST
A-21 WILL TAKE THE SHIP WITH DELAYED ETA
Alyce Harris (AZ-ADC) 06/30/2013 1044 PNT
A-21
Called ADC this morning around 1015 to find out about the needed date/time; order says today @ 0800 but we would not be able to meet that. If filled, (N6)40MA could be at incident 7/1 1200. Asked for a call back to confirm the incident still needed/wanted the resource, waiting for a response at this time.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1119 MST
A-21 Request A-21 – Helicopter, Type 3 Standard – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407 (N640MA) (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21 Chase Truck: Dustin Strayer (COP – 541-279-1650), Joshua Oak, Russell Buzzell Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1507 MST
A-21.1 Request A-21.1 – HELICOPTER MANAGER, SINGLE RESOURCE (HMGB) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with McKee, John R (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.2 Request A-21.2 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Flemmer, Nick (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.3 Request A-21.3 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Strayer, Dustin (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.4 Request A-21.4 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Buzzell, Russell (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS. The request was filled with override due to the following: The resource’s qualification status is Trainee and was used to fill a request that specified “No Trainee.”
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.5 Request A-21.5 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Oak, Joshua (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.6 Request A-21.6 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Shellenbarger, Elizabeth Suza (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS. The request was filled with override due to the following: The resource’s qualification status is Trainee and was used to fill a request that specified “No Trainee.”
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
———————————————
END OF ALL FULFILLMENT NOTES FOR BITTERROOT CHOPPER AND HELITACK
I should have already mentioned this… but the MT-BRC Unit ID code in Resource Orders A-21 and all sub-orders A-21.1 through A-21.6 is definitely the Unit ID code for the ‘Bitterrroot Helitack’.
MT = Montana
BRC = Bitterroot Crew
Also… Helicopter N640MT mentioned in order A-20 is definitely the chopper that is used by Bitterroot Helitack. It is rented from ‘Minuteman Aviation’ back in Missoula, Montana’.
Aircraft registration data for N640MA…
From…
http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N640MA
————————————————————
Summary: 2002 BELL 407 Rotorcraft (7 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: MINUTEMAN AVIATION INC MISSOULA, MT (Corporation)
Owner Address: 5225 HWY 10 W, AIRPORT BOX 16 MISSOULA, MT, 598080016, US
Airworthiness: Standard/Normal
Serial Number: 53522
Engine Weight Speed Mode S Code
Engine: ROLLS-ROYC 250-C47B Horsepower: 650 (Turbo-shaft)
Weight: Less than 12,500lbs
Speed: Not defined
Model S Code: 52063117 / A8664F
Registration Details
Status: Assigned
Certificate Issue Date: 2013-05-01
Airworthiness Date: 2002-06-12
Last Action Date: 2013-09-18
Expiration: 2016-05-31
Registration History
Date, Owner, Location, Serial Number
20-09-2013, MINUTEMAN AVIATION INC, MISSOULA MT, 53522
02-06-2006, INTERCONTINENTAL JET INC, TULSA OK, 590
—————————————————————
Yikes… TWO bad typos in the same sentence above.
Bitterroot Chopper registration number is N640MA, not N640MT.
( The MA suffix stands for Minuteman Aviation. They OWN the chopper ).
The ‘J- Resource Orders’ document order number is A-21, not A-20.
That sentence above SHOULD have read like this…
“Also… Helicopter N640MA mentioned in order A-21 is definitely the chopper that is used by Bitterroot Helitack. It is rented from ‘Minuteman Aviation’ back in Missoula, Montana’.”
I’m currently thinking that it’s possible the Bitterroot chopper and crew may have “headed out” to Arizona B4 they were “assigned” to the Yarnell HIll Fire.
The crewmember who posted on Facebook sounds more like they were “heading to Arizona” in general, not Yarnell in particular.
Also, that crewmember is not listed on the Resource Order.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 6, 2014 at 10:35 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m currently thinking that it’s possible the Bitterroot chopper
>> and crew may have “headed out” to Arizona B4 they
>> were “assigned” to the Yarnell HIll Fire.
Possibly… but there are still the following ‘fulfillment notes’ in the “J- Resource Orders” document that seem to establish that there was no way Helicopter N640MA could be in Yarnell any earlier than NOON on July 1…
At 11:19 AM on June 30, Kelly McKee was aprised of this and made an entry about needing to confirm the order because that Chopper couldn’t be there until NOON on July 1… and she was waiting to hear if they still wanted it.
33 minutes later, at 11:52 AM, Kelly McKee apparently got the confirmation that they still wanted that Chopper from Montana, even if it couldn’t be there until July 1, and then she ‘fulfilled order A-21’ with N640MA out of Montana.
Fulfillment notes…
——————————————————
A-21
Called ADC this morning around 1015 to find out about the needed date/time; order says today @ 0800 but we would not be able to meet that. If filled, (N6)40MA could be at incident 7/1 1200. Asked for a call back to confirm the incident still needed/wanted the resource, waiting for a response at this time.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1119 MST
A-21
Request A-21 – Helicopter, Type 3 Standard – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407 (N640MA) (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
———————————————————–
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> The crewmember who posted on Facebook sounds
>> more like they were “heading to Arizona” in general,
>> not Yarnell in particular.
Maybe whoever that was ‘posting’ really wasn’t sure where they were going.
The ‘orders’ for the SIX Bitterroot Helitack support crew weren’t even ‘cut’ until around NOON on June 30, 2013.
Three of them were then ‘coming’ ( from Montana ) in the Bitterroot Chase vehicle, with a planned RON ( Rest Overnight ) in either Idaho or Utah… and I assume that means the other 3 came down with Chopper N640MA itself.
>> Marti also said
>> Also, that crewmember is not listed on the Resource Order.
Hmm… maybe that ‘crewmember’ ( posting on Facebook? ) was actually the PILOT of N640MA. Funny thing about these ‘Helitack’ resource orders. They tend to list all the SUPPORT CREW that gets ordered… and there is always an order fo the Chopper itself… but the actual PILOT never seems to get his own separate resource order.
Same was true for ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ and the Price Valley Helitack.
There is no separate resource order for the 5KA pilot. Just the chopper.
A couple of things….
The helicopters that fly for the FS are Privet under contract some times a 3 year contract for the Fire season.
Also not listed is the fuel truck that generally convoys with the crew truck.
Just some extra info..
I’ve really wondered about those fuel trucks. I think I haven’t seen any connected to 5KA, but then, coming from “near Santa Fe” it wouldn’t have gotten there until 4:30-ish anyway, along with, I estimate, it’s other vehicles.
Bob–Who “usually” flies with the helicopter? Obviously, the “manager” who, in the case of 5KA, was also the Crew Superintendent.
5KA was capable of carrying the pilot, one other person in front, and six crew members in back.
I’m guessing the helicopter with Bitterroot was also. That’s a rappel crew. That’s pretty much how they do it, from what I’ve seen.
Maybe, on that order, that was the crewmembers listed on the dispatch order, and the facebook guy was part of the rest of the crew–driving. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t “show up” on the order?
I don’t know how many people are on that crew.
The people that go with the Helicopter The Manager and then a selection based on where they are going and what they will do.
It is different biased on mission.
Great, thanks.
That’s what I’ve been thinking.
Hmmm. I thought I responded to this earlier but apparently it didn’t post.
The facebook guy was NOT the pilot.
I’m not gonna post his name because I generally don’t like to do that for innocent bystanders, but if you google “bitterroot helitack” you”ll find it.
WE WERE TOLD BY CURRENT AND RETIRED FIREFIGHTERS AND SMOKEJUMPERS THAT IT IS NOT FOREIGN FOR A WILDFIRE CREW BUGGY OF ANY KIND BE RE-POSITIONED IN A STATE THAT IS SEEING THE MOST FIRE IN FIRE SEASON SO THAT THE CREW CAN JUST FLY OUT SO IT IS POSSIBLE THE CREW BUGGY WAS PRESENT IN ARIZONA BEFORE THE ACTUAL CREW.
While that is true the Dispatch orders say the crew left Montana on 6/30 and would overnight in Idaho or Utah and then arrive on 7/1 at 1900 Yarnell
So they did drive from Montana Based on Dispatch records.
WTKTT
I just emailed you the list of photos that Joy had sent me.
WTKTT~
I just emailed you the list of photos that Joy sent me.
The evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted at 6:30 pm on July 4.
So there’s that.
Ok here goes on Bitterroot Helicopter
ordered Type 3 helicopter Hampton Montana 6/30 at 0944
at 1043 Bitterroot Helicopter A-21 will arrive on 7/1 at 1200
If the helitack drove from Montana at 1030 6/30 It would take till some time in the morning of 7/1 to be at the fire that’s based on what I picked up from the fire order.
The Helicopter would arrive around 1200 Based on 8 hr. flight time per day they would have had little time left to fly on 7/1.
If the fire info is correct the Bitterroot crew was not at the fire until 7/1. in there truck.
So we have a conflict between the fire record and the pictures. So I didn’t clear any thing up.
We have already learned ( many times ) when examining ‘photos’ of the incident that just because a photo is included with a group of other photos does NOT mean, in any way, that it can be assumed ALL of those photos were taken at the same time… or even on the same day.
The ‘Miscellaneous’ folder under the ‘Arizona Forestry’ parent folder in the SAIT ‘Photos and Videos section is a good example. MOST of the photos in that ‘group’ of pictures were taken on June 30, 2013… but a lot of them were NOT ( even though some of them even LOOK like they were ).
You just have to take each picture one at a time and try and learn as much as you can about it, either from the content of THAT photo itself ( and no other photo in that ‘group’ unless it is obviously of the exact same scene ), or from the EXIF data emebedded in the photo being examined.
Even then ( with EXIF data ) we have also learned very well that that ‘data’ sometimes cannot be trusted.
There are actually still a few photos in that ‘Miscellaneous’ folder in the SAIT release that were obviously taken with a camera that had its DATE and TIME all messed up… so its basically impossible to trust the EXIF data contained in the photo.
It can happen.
Side thing I’ve been thinking about telling you, WTKTT.
Just in case you might be continuing this kind of stuff, which you are awesome at.
I highly recommend getting/using Lightroom as a visual media data-base software.
It doesn’t show as much meta-data as what you are seeing, but you can get the same software you are using as a plug-in for it (something I still haven’t had time to do).
It can do A LOT of photo improvement and SOME video improvement.
I’ve used it INTENSIVELY for KEYWORDING for comparing things. I have all the stuff from this fire keyworded up the wazoo and I can click on something like “unidentified red engines” and see all of just that.
You can make “virtual copies” of anything and play around with the timestamps and see what that does. That’s how I’ve done all of my “fixing the timestamps” of things.
And you can make slideshows that include videos quite easily. Probably not the careful fade-into-and-out-of videos that you have been doing recently. I have no clue what you are using to do that and I’m curious.
And you can make “collections” of things and move them around in relationship to each other.
I’ve used Lightroom as a photographer for five years. I have almost 200k photo and video files that I reference and work with all the time, going way back to 1999 when I first started working with digital photography and video.
It’s beyond well-worth the cost of purchasing it.
There is no doubt the Bitterroot crew was there in Yarnell.
The following online testimony from a ‘fire chaser’ named Scott Olsen confirms that, but only for the time period of the week following the tragedy.
Scott Olsen was there in Yarnell on the morning of July 7, 2013, and was standing on the side of the road where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89.
He was waiting for the procession of hearses carrying the 19 GM Hotshots to pass by as it wound its way from the ME’s office, through Yarnell, and then on to Prescott.
As he was standing there waiting… a Hotshot crew came up Hays Ranch Road to line Highway 89 and he ended up standing there with them.
It was the Bitterroot crew. From Montana.
Scott Olsen’s public account of that moment is here…
http://wscottolsen.com/2014/04/chasing-fire/
From his written account…
————————————————————–
A Hotshot team walks up Hays Ranch Road to the intersection with Route 89. Dressed in the uniform of a wildland firefighter, fire-resistant yellow shirt and green pants, tall boots with lug soles, backpacks and hard hats, they carry pulaskis and the dirt of these hills. One of them is an older man. One of them is a very young woman.
The sound of a helicopter turns everyone’s eyes up the road. The Honor Escort is approaching. Two helicopters and one airplane. Then the motorcycle police. Riding two abreast, gleaming white motorcycles come down the road. Nineteen, I think. Maybe twenty. Then a fire command truck. Then the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew carrier. Then nineteen white hearses, single file, each with American flags, each with a badge on the door for Prescott Fire, each with the name of the Hotshot it carried on a sign in the window, one after the other, slowly.
I do not know any of the men who died. But when the procession passes I fall in with the other Hotshots, who are from the Bitterroot in Montana. I do not know any of them either, but it turns out we have friends in common. Do you know, I ask? Yes, they say.
The group of motorcycle riders exits and the Bitterroot crew pauses as they go by, one group offering respect back to those who came to give respect.
————————————————————–
The ONLY thing we don’t know for sure and certain is exactly WHEN the Bitterroot crew actually arrived in Yarnell.
We are talking about the Bitterroot Helitack.
Bitterroot Hot Shots are not the same.
Just clarifying.
I still have not seen Pictures so if it is a Bus it may be the Hot Shots not the helitack.
Sonny said Bus
Joy said Truck Helitack crew buggy
I guess we need to see the Picture Marti. I am Lost which isn’t really important.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 5, 2014 at 10:02 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We are talking about the Bitterroot Helitack.
>> Bitterroot Hot Shots are not the same. Just clarifying.
Yes. Sorry. I should have made that clear myself.
Mr. Scott Olsen called them ‘Hotshots’ but that was, apparently, the actual Bitterroot HELITACK crew that he was standing with.
According to the publicly released “J- Resource Orders’ document, order number A-21 was for the helicopter itself out of ‘Minuteman Aviation’ in Missoula, Montana… and resource order numbers A-20.1 through A-20.6 were for the 6 HELITACK crew assigned to that chopper.
A-21 – Helicopter order
Request Number: A-21
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2117 PNT
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 623-445-0274
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: Helicopter, Type 3, Standard
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: MT-BRC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: MT-BRF
Resource Assigned: HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1530 MST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1130 PNT
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: WITH HELITAC MODULE.
Additional resource orders for the accompanying ‘HELITAC MODULE’…
A-21.1 – HMGB – McKee, John R. ( Helicopter Manager )
A-21.2 – HECM – Flemmer, Nick
A-21.3 – HECM – Strayer, Dustin
A-21.4 – HECM (T-A) – Buzzell, Russell
A-21.5 – HECM – Oak, Joshua
A-21.6 – HECM (T-A) – Shellenbarger, Elizabeth Suza
>> Bob Powers also said…
>> I still have not seen Pictures so if it is a Bus it may be the
>> Hot Shots not the helitack.
The “J- Resource Orders” document itself indicates that THREE of the above SIX ordered HELITACK were driving an ‘AOV’ ( Agency Owned Vehicle ) down to the fire and their resource fullfillment notes then mention they were going to ROV ( Rest Overnight ) in either Pocatello, ID or Ogden, UT as they drove down to Yarnell.
That ‘Travel Note’ is on resource orders for Dustin Strayer, Russell Buzzell, and Johsua Oak.
It looks like this…
“Travel Mode: AOV/RON Pocatello, ID OR Ogden, UT 6/30”
Here is Joshua Oak’s complete resource order.
It has the same ‘Travel mode’ entry as Strayer and Buzzell.
NOTE that these ‘Helitack’ support people weren’t even actually ordered until about NOON on June 30, 2013… and the travel mode field has the RON for the night of June 30 and the ‘Estimated time of Arrival’ for that vehicle is July 1, and not June 30.
Request Number: A-21.5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 623-445-0274
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: MT-BRC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: MT-BRF
Resource Assigned: Oak, Joshua (MT-BRC)
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1500 MST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1900 PNT
Travel Mode: AOV/RON Pocatello, ID OR Ogden, UT 6/30
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: ( No Entry )
Reporting Instructions: ( No Entry )
Thanks I was reading the fire logs that did not have that much detail.
Makes it simple that no Montana helitack truck was there on June 30 2013.
as they were ordered that day and traveled to the fire not arriving until late July 1 which would make the picture stamped July 2 correct. as Marti stated above.
So Bob it is okay that Marty came up with July 4than said July 3rd to now July 2 but no way to June 30 due to clear skies yet she never spoke to homeowner to this date that I heard of asking when she evacuated because Peeples Valley evacuated way earlier than Glen Ilah and Yarnell area and early on on 6-30-13 andthere was indeed clear skies early. Sunday from the highway pack of car pile up.
to say you stick with July 4 than 3 than 2nd bit no to 6-30..dumb cell. typos . npt correct ing typing things the cell did wrong but I will only believe the July 2 part if homeowner went back for meds and she did not confirm that bit select few ycso let back in for mefs
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 3, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 2, around 11AM, starting from the Incident Command Post parking lot and traveling down the road showing all the various vehicles and the tents. That’s the series that includes Bitterroot Helitack Buggy, Minnesota Helitack Utility Truck, and Apple Valley Helitack (CA) Utility Truck.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 4, around 6:30 pm, of the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning right onto Hays Ranch Road.
That’s when the evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted. That would explain the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning on to Hays Ranch Road.
The shadows in these photos match the timestamps.
Typo.
First series June 30, not June 3.
So I believe I understand Joy saying that the person who took the Pictures went back on July 2nd to get meds and took more pictures then. which fits the time frames.
That’s what I’m thinking also.
THAT IS INCORRECT AND MISREAD…I STATED “IF” THAT LADY CONNIE WENT IN FOR MEDS THAN I WOULD BELIEVE THE JULY 2ND STATEMENT BUT IT IS NOT YET CONFIRMED BUT SOME DID GO IN ON JULY 1 2013 VIA YCSO PERMISSION TO GET MEDICATIONS.
Yes it’s the Bitterroot Helitack Crew Buggy.
I think.
It actually looks like some kind of combo of a utility truck and a crew buggy.
That’s a great story. Thanks for posting it.
Something I just noticed about ‘Bitterroot’.
The IHC of the Bitterroot crew is actually listed as an SME ( Subject Matter Expert ) that was used by the SAIT as they were writing their SAIR report.
Here is page 115 of the SAIR.
Look at the very LAST entry under this ‘Subject Matter Expert’ list.
It is Mr. John Wood, Superintendent of the Bitterroot IHC.
——————————————————————–
SAIR Appendix I: Subject Matter Experts
Brian Cardoza, Superintendent, Idaho City IHC, Boise National Forest
Paul Cerda, Superintendent, Alpine IHC, Rocky Mountain National Park
Heath Cota, District Fire Management Officer, Sawtooth National Forest
Sarah Doehring, Smokejumper Program Manager, Grangeville Smokejumpers, Nez Perce National Forest; IC Type 3
Frank Esposito, Superintendent, Big Bear IHC, San Bernardino National Forest
Rich Harvey, Deputy State Forester, Nevada Division of Forestry; IC Type 1, Great Basin IMT 2
John Kennedy, Captain, City of Reno Fire Department; Operations Branch Director, Great Basin IMT 1
Erik Litzenberg, Fire Chief, Santa Fe Fire Department
Elizabeth Lund, Deputy Director, USFS R4 Fire & Aviation Management; IC Type 1, Great Basin IMT 1
Kelly Martin, Chief of Fire & Aviation Management, Yosemite National Park; Operations Branch Director, California Interagency Incident Management Team 5
Leif Mathiesen, Superintendent, Kern Valley IHC, BLM Central California District
Ted Mead, Chief of Fire and Aviation, Montana Dept. of Natural Resources & Conservation
Les Rogers, Chief of Law Enforcement, State of Texas; IC Type 2
Brit Rosso, Center Manager, Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Aaron Schuh, Superintendent, Rogue River IHC, Rogue River- Siskiyou National Forest
Bobbie Scopa, Assistant Director of Fire Operations, USFS R6 Fire & Aviation Management
Terry Sonner, Engine Module Leader, BLM Boise District
Eddie Tudor, Resource Management Bureau Chief, New Mexico State Forestry Division; ICT3
John Wood, Superintendent, Bitterroot IHC, Bitterroot National Forest
——————————————————————————
So it can be assumed that regardless of when the Bitterroot ICH crew actually arrived in Yarnell… whatever they saw, or heard, or (perhaps) even photographed or videoed would have been available to the SAIT.
There was no need to ‘interview’ the Bitterroot ICH.
He was ON the SAIT investigation team itself.
Typos above… sorry.
Anywhere it says ICH it should have been IHC.
“Interagency Hotshot Crew”
Correction for above…
The actual “J- Resource Orders’ document appears to only have entries for the Bitterroot Helicopter ( Registration number N640MA ) and only SIX HELITACK crew along with it.
These are probably NOT the actual ‘Bitterroot IHC’ crew.
Regardless… Mr. John Wood, the Superintendent of the Bitterroot HOTSHOT crew was, ended up a ‘Subject Matter Expert’ on the SAIT team.
Yes. Different crews. It can get confusing.
I don’t understand what you mean by a conflict between the photo and the record.
The photo of their truck was taken July 2.
The photo the crewmember took was taken July 3.
Where’s the conflict?
Joys statement that the picture was taken the 30 the crew was not there till the 1st late. if that’s what you are asking. also 2 seperiate photos take by 2 different people.
From what I understand.
ONE SET OF PHOTOS ARE FROM CONNIE CALLEN OF PEEPLES VALLEY AND WERE GIVEN TO KATHY HUNTER GLOVER AND WERE ON HER LAPTOP IS HOW I GOT CONNIE’S PHOTOS FOR THE INVESTIGATORS AND PEOPLE TRYING TO REACH CLARITY TO REVIEW THEM.
why am I seeign others posts but not mine???
Joy A. Collura says
November 5, 2014 at 10:21 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I have been here since 9:05am trying to POST and it is 10:20am…what the hel l…
darn pc
this is like a frea king game trying to post on here anymore…it says I posted the message yet it is not on the site at 515 comments so no it did not post—
Bob Powers wrote and if you think this folks over here would verbally LIE and THEY were there…go look at number 112 photo where it has the evacuation car line up—enough freaking said…
duplicate message my a ss…
reply to answer YOU Sonny. Figured I better clarify—
No, you have to realize people on here like to post theories and stories. They learned early on in life to buying into bullshit is the way to go.
The homeowner is currently a patron at the Yarnell Library and confirms it was evacuation day.
Even IF the people did not open their mouths of their accounts, look at photo 112. Which is two ahead of the Bitter Root one.
Aw.
Behold.
Proof that it was evacuation day with a pile up of cars trying to get the hel l out…Sonny is correct and you can call Congress librarian Maryanne Paulic as she stayed behind as well as the prior long time business owners of the Ranch House Restaurant Steve and Shelley Berguson and the new firefighter that came to us Errol Eastwood and so many more…during evacuation you were not allowed to leave the property so if Marty is right on her dates than how is it they were on Hayes/Highway 89? especially with an evacuation car line up?
Now. I am in one liv id agi tated state since the Chief Ben Palm thing that many say let it go—
Why the twister hel l do I always have to let things freaking go-
I am the one that is having people come to me. Not just one but many. From current and prior firefighters. I am just a hiker/housewife.
I finally reach Chief Palm and he denies the comments. Than how come current and prior people seem to want me to “believe” in their statements of WARNINGS and CAUTIONS!
Sh it, if it is true that I come in to money soon—I already told my husband that my entire energy is piecing the truth to the extent I would hire the BEST P.I. to investigate local as well as the whole enchilada of this money market bullsh it of the firefighting community. Bob Powers says something straight up that I liked from day one and that is SAFETY MATTERS!
Indeed it does.
I have tried too many times to post this and the library updated and erased what I wrote as it automatically shut pc off but not a good time for me to write replies because I am beyond pis sed that I can walk into a firefighter outfit and see them brainwashed and glued to the boob tube. How about getting off your as s and help some locals in the community may they took a loss or not…get out and do the defensible space and so many good things you all could be doing versus some “G-D” television. I reckon you probably watching the tv series Chicago Fire, huh.
Make a difference you firefighters and start freaking sharing that was on that fire versus coming to me with oral versus document shit.
I got no time for oral bullshit. You see me. You want to talk. Great. Bring it on. Give me something tangible that we can look at…yeah initially I am okay with a cell to cell photo but I need the raw shit.
Like I said I got to get off this arena of horseshit. Who would even assume it was after June 30th that photo just looking at it. I mean I felt I just got a piece of the action of HOW the state is gonna have their hayday—
TRUTH is all that matters here. DO NOT air assumptions. How did you calculate such date?
I am at a state of mind that is not looking too positive…I read my bible and go into prayer and I feel like I am just at a dead end block…a serious barrier.
JOY—- please settle down I was going on what Marti said on the dates and the pictures.
I have seen none of them so only going on what Marti and you and Sonny said.
Marti is very good with camera info and Pictures so I’ll refer to her explanation as to the dates.
Sorry if you misunderstood what I said was trying to decipher the information not saying any one lied I never said that just that what I was being told did not make sense.
and the fire orders for helicopters and crews did not show the crews we are talking about on the 30th– Again unless I missed something.
Again the bitterroot crew did not seem to be involved with the GM crew or the Burn Over that day. There were 2 Helicopters on the fire on the 30th neither of which were attached to Bitterroot helitack. The info they showed started on the 1st thru the 4th so there first day on the fire may have been the first even though they arrived the 30th.
That seems to be what Marti was saying after I reread the post and not that the pictures were taken on the 1st or 2nd or 3rd. Dose that make sense.
Not sure of what she was referring to on the picture taken on the 3rd unless it was the helitack picture that was actually referenced with the other pictures they also posted..
I am sure she will go back and clarify.
JOY—- please settle down
SETTLED DOWN.
Sorry to not get back sooner. My life, right now, is pretty much consumed by helping my 93-year-old mom, who isn’t doing very well.
Photo 112 was taken on, via its metadata, July 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM. Several other photos are in that series.
As someone who uses digital cameras A LOT, I think the DAY timestamp is probably accurate, although lot of times the HOUR timestamps can be seriously inaccurate.
It was apparently taken by the same camera that took the July 2 photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy..
It’s part of a series of photos showing a long line of cars driving south on 89 on July 4.
I have NO IDEA why all those cars were driving south on 89 on July 4.
It’s definitely NOT June 30, because the sky is clear, as opposed to how the sky would have looked on June 30.
Regarding the photo of the Montana Helitack Crew Vehicle.
After Joy said the photo was photo 100, I discovered that was the ONE photo of a series, taken on July 3, that I hadn’t downloaded. The series includes images of the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School, a variety of vehicles parked near it, and tents set up in an open area. The photo shows a Bitterroot Helitack Crew Buggy. It also shows an “Apple Valley Flight Crew” truck. Apple Valley Flight Crew is from California.
By July 3, there were a LOT of crews from all over the country on the fire.
I haven’t looked back at the dispatch orders for this crew yet. However, I found a Facebook Page of one of the crew members. On June 30 he wrote, “Takin the helicopter down to Arizona to fight fire for a few weeks.”
His next post was a Granite Mountain “Last Alarm” “Heroes Remembered” image on July 1. Then, on July 3, he posted a photo of one of the Granite Mountain Buggies and wrote “Rest in Peace Brothers.”
Then, on July 10, he posted a photo of another fire, writing, “Made it to the Shipman fire. Kearny, AZ.”
Do you still want me to send you the photo, Bob Powers? Or should I just forward the list of photos and you can download what you want?
Just discovered I made a boo-boo.
These photos were taken on July 2, not July 3.
So I understand the Bitterroot crew was there after the Burn over on July 1???
and not on June 30.
No don’t need photo rely on your judgment. Also understand the Head came Video is being released to day or this week do not know if thru the Media or the State, you might keep your ears and eyes open for it..
Yes. You understand. I still haven’t had time to look at the dispatch logs.
I’m doing 10-days with my mom who fell on Saturday. Fortunately she didn’t break anything. She’s really weak and I’m having to “push” her (including through her fear) carefully.
Fight fire aggressively/assertively/effectively while providing for safety first (and all that goes into that) has, surprisingly, become my key mantra in doing that.
Typo. I’m doing 10-hour days…..
And, between the impending release of the head-cam video (with all ITS implications) and the impending release of the news that the Ferguson, Missouri, police officer, who clearly fatally shot an unarmed and surrendering 18-year-old Black teen-ager, won’t be indicted (with all ITS implications–I’ve been following this closely), and the very recent Department of Justice intervention in the Albuquerque (where I live) Police Department, and my recent reading about how the USFS contracted with a totally dubious company to head its Arizona Four Forests Mitigation Project, I’m feeling really seriously dubious right now about a number of Federal and State agencies that we rely on to work on behalf of their employers (us citizens) to even remotely do their jobs.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 4, 2014 at 11:18 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> Also understand the Head came Video is being released today
>> or this week do not know if thru the Media or the State
Didn’t see anything today… but if it is ‘imminent’ then it appears it really is, somehow, going to coincide with the scheduled review of ADOSH’s findings as requested by Arizona Forestry.
ADOSH published their ‘agenda’ for their scheduled Nov 6 meeting just yesterday afternoon.
That PUBLISHED agenda for this Thursday’s ADOSH meeting is here…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Director/docs/Agendas_Archive/agenda_141106.pdf
I don’t see anything that specifically mentions the ADOSH review on this particular agenda but that doesn’t mean it won’t be brought up.
They will still PROBABLY elect to go into ‘Executive Session’ for this discussion of the Yarnell Hill Findings… which means whatever is presented or discussed won’t end up in the required PUBLIC ‘minutes’ of the meeting.
Just for reference… ALL upcoming agendas for ADOSH are required ( by law ) to be publicly published on the following page BEFORE the meetings actually take place…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_agendas_page.aspx
…and once the ‘minutes’ of any ADOSH meeting are ‘approved’ at the start of the meeting that follows… they are also required ( by law ) to be publicly published here…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_minutes_page.aspx
If they decided to go into Executive Session at ANY of these meetings… then that is also required to be documented in the minutes even if the CONTENT of that particular ‘Executive Session’ is not.
Looks like it could be buried in Item # 5 but nothing actually stated. My understanding was the 43 Min Head Cam had been authorized for release by ADOSH right away.
Also WTKTT you may have some work to do as I have herd the Head Cam Audio has some areas that are very hard to hear or scratchy. As with most radio transmissions, hopefully the interpolation won’t get to confrontational as to what was said.
Assume it will be released to the media but no info on that.
Sounds like you may be right on the 6th.
There will ALWAYS be some ‘controversy’ surrounding ANY background radio transmissions accidentally captured in a video’s audio track.
There are still some people who doubt that it was actually Eric Marsh telling SOMEONE ( at exactly 4:27 PM ) that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ and that they were “Coming from the heel of the fire”, even though his voice and what he is saying has been VERIFIED by people who knew him.
The only mystery is WHO Marsh was making that ‘report’ to at 4:27 PM, when there was still plenty of time to avoid the tragedy… and WHY this clear radio transmission was never mentioned by the SAIT.
Maybe the Helmet Cam will tell us WHO Marsh was making that report to ( e.g. call signs ) even if that part of it is a ‘little scratchy’.
Bob Powers that photo of the Bitterroot Bus was taken on June 30, 2013. We just again verified it with the lady that took the photo. So took it as she was evacuating, and once you were evacuated from the area you could not return due to roadblocks on 89 that kept stringent restrictions; If you passed the road block or were caught anywhere in the Yarnaell-Peeples Valley area you would be arrested. Peeples Valley residents including the lady that took the photo were not allowed back into their residence until July 7 for Peeples Valley and July 8 for Yarnell. Joy and I stayed in the gymnasium of the Yavapai College in Prescott. We were able to leave the 7th of July and stayed overnight on a pic nic table in Mountainaire so we could enter Yarnell early on the 8th. We were the first ones in–and each person had to go through an interrogation and proof of residency. We were issued a green sheet to put in our window that listed family members and t he exact location we could drive to. We were told we could and would be arrested if found outside that particular location unless we were visiting a neighbor and he or she verified that fact. I almost got arrested and was detained because a reporter tied a camera to my roof top and asked me to drive down mainstreet and back to show the condition of 89. The cop said no camera’s allowed but I argued the first amendment. The reporter took it off saying he did not want me to be locked up. Then they accused me of working for and being paid by the press. I still see that the system is screwed up and wondered why they were so adamant that the press could not even have a view of mainstreet. It has become a police state when you can lock out the press in a situation like that. The world needed to know what was going on and what had happened–when you control the press in that manner you are hiding the truth or allowing possibilities of a cover up.
It is just like this Bitterroot thing.that even Ted did not know about until the photographic proof they were there on the 30th of June. They would have seen and heard and maybe even recorded important information, yet they are not even mentioned in the Sair report.
I had previously believed that the Yarnell fire department was told to stand down. Now from a very reliable source we are told by the man who was there at the Yarnell station that they were not told to stand down on Friday but that there was an argument and instead they were allowed to go but the winner of the argument decided it best to let the fire burn. We were also informed that the Yarnell fire department went to Peeples Valley since they could draw more pay that way,. while the Peeples Valley department went to Yarnell for the same reason. If that is true and they are fleecing the taxpayer by allowing fires to enlarge and fire departments to exchange areas so they can get more money then we need an investigation and a house cleaning.
I do hope John Daugherty gets hold of Joy for names and does his own investigation into this matter. After all. allowing this fire to go wild has taken 19 lives–now we need the Yahoos to own up to what is really going on in this district.
Thanks Sonny
That ties it down a lot better hopefully we can find the Fire order date and time they were ordered and arrived at the fire. the picture says they were there on June 30 so that should be cleared up. A lot of resources were arriving all day the 30th was the helicopter with them or did it arrive latter?
Have to dig for number etc. to place it on the Fire.
Thanks Sonny
Got some confusion on the dates. We have had that before with camera settings will have to dig into it a little more.
Reply to Sonny’s post November 5, 2014 at 9:50 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> It is just like this Bitterroot thing.that even Ted did not know
>> about until the photographic proof they were there on the
>> 30th of June. They would have seen and heard and maybe
>> even recorded important information.
Yes. You are right, Sonny.
THAT is why it is remains important to know the full extent of WHO was really THERE that day and *might* have either seen, heard ( or even RECORDED ) some things.
Any ‘fire unit’ that was there in any kind of ‘official’ capacity would have had all the same radio frequencies that everyone else had. That is what the whole ‘cloning’ thing is about. The moment you show up to work on a fire and get this ‘clone’ then you have all the right frequencies on your own radio(s)… including the correct Air-To-Ground frequency being used that day for that fire.
As we have seen with the Granite Mountain crew itself… and all the other crews that were there… this ‘next generation’ of firefighters all carry these iPhones and Androids and are constantly ‘Facebooking’ and ‘Twiterring’ and basically ‘video documenting their lives’.
So the odds are high that ANY crew that was there would have ended up with their own sets of photos, videos, and (possibly) background radio captures.
That’s why the Price Valley Helitack presence is still being discussed.
We now know for SURE that they were THERE.
The Resource Orders say there were actually ELEVEN of these guys.
As far as we know… NONE of these ELEVEN men have ever been interviewed or even asked if they have photos / videos or recordings of radio traffic.
It’s still important to know, even now, WHO was actually THERE that day and might have been shooting a video at any moment when their own BK radios were working in the background and broadcasting radio traffic.
WTKTT
Keep in mind if crews and overhead were arriving in the afternoon of the 30th they were not considered on duty for the fire at that point but Night shift or next day shift as a Helicopter and Crew would be a day shift.
It looks like the Bitterroot crew was there in the Late Afternoon of the 30th but at that point not assigned to a shift on the fire and there for not considered a information witness to the Fatalities as they were not on fire line assignment at that time.
I think that would be why some people that were there may not have been interviewed by the SAIR. Although maybe some may have had pictures or information that pertained to the investigation.
Do we even have any fire ordering info other than those that were assigned to day shift the 30th?
The resource orders would tie down order and arrival time if they are posted past the afternoon of the 30th.
I do not remember seeing any orders past the afternoon of the 30th.
or additional helicopters on the fire other than the 2 we talked about.
That were working the fire that day.
In the publicly released “J- Resource Orders” document, the order number for the Bitterroot Helicopter ( Registration number N640MA ) is order number A-21.
The SIX Helitack that were ordered WITH it are resource order numbers A-21.1 through A-21.6.
None of the CREW orders were even placed until about NOON on June 30, 2013… and the ‘estimated arrival’ of the ‘crew’ ( and the vehicle they were traveling in ) is July 1, 2013.
There is even and ‘AOV and a RON ( Rest Overnight ) note on the orders for the crew which says they were going to spend the night in either Idaho or Utah the night of June 30, and not arrive until sometime July 1.
See more info about this above in another reply.
Reply to Reed
Are you disparaging the truth?
The homeowners that took photo actually are right here in the Yarnell library.
Those photos were from a Peeples Valley homeowner who evacuated on 6-30-13.
No homeowners could of taken that photo on July 3rd or 4th. All homeowners had to remain at their property.
No one could enter because of police lockdown.
I believe the pictures were dated on those dates maybe camera setting was off?
All the tents indicate a full camp that was not there on the 30th so maybe a question on the dates?
**
** ABC15 HELICOPTER VIDEO CLIP 5 ( OF 31 CLIPS )
Here is the next video ‘crossfade’ of the ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air 15’ footage that was taken over the Yarnell Hill Fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM on June 30, 2013.
This FIFTH clip ( out of 31 clips ) in their original ‘raw footage’ loop that was uploaded to their ABC15 public YouTube account the very night of the tragedy itself provides no great revelation(s), but it is a very important ‘anchor clip’ from all that raw footage with regards to putting actual TIMESTAMPS on the rest of the ‘Air15’ video clips.
This is about the only clip in the entire ‘Air15’ helicopter footage with an absolutely identifiable TIMESTAMP because of what is being filmed.
This Clip 05 in the ABC15 raw footage loop is simply another video of the same 14 second long 1615 ( 4:15 ) VLAT 911 drop that was also captured in Eric Panebaker’s Air Study video with the filename 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.
That VLAT 911 drop lasted for exactly 14 seconds and it happened at these exact ‘time offsets’ in the Eric Panebaker video…
+2:22 – ( 1615.11 / 4:15.11 PM ) – VLAT 911 STARTS DROPPING RETARDANT
+2:36 – ( 1615.25 / 4:15.25 PM ) – VLAT 911 STOPS DROPPING RETARDANT
Retardant Drop Duration = 14 seconds.
The new ‘crossfade’ video for this Air15 Helicopter Clip 05 is HERE…
http://youtu.be/QsX0dxkuK14
** ADDITIONAL NOTES FOR AIR15 CLIP 05…
The road that is seen running horizontally from the upper left down to the lower right is actually “Miner’s Camp Road” in Peeples Valley.
The ‘buildings’ seen in the upper left corner at the start of the video are actually within Yavapai County Parcel number 202-03-012M.
The PUBLIC Yavapai County Tax Assessor information for parcel 202-03-012M is as follows…
Owner: HARE JEFFREY W
Owner’s Mailing Address
18925 S MINERS CAMP RD, PEEPLES VALLEY, AZ 86332
The same owner ( Jeffrey W. Hare ) is also the owner of public record for the large land parcel that is WEST of the parcel that contains the buildings ( Parcel number 202-03-012N ).
This “Miner’s Camp Road” location is actually where Field OPS1 Todd Abel was ‘working’ and physically located when the deployment MAYDAY traffic first hit the radio circa 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).
OPS1 Todd Abel actually departed from the ground location shown in this video when he decided to head down to the Ranch House Restaurant in Yarnell following the deployment radio traffic.
Todd Abel’s direct conversations with John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ about the deployment radio traffic ( captured in the Helmet-Cam video ) and his eventual DIRECT ORDER to John Burfiend telling him to stop ignoring the men who were desperately trying to get him on the radio came while he was there ( at this location ) on Miner’s Camp Road.
The ‘spot fires’ seen in the video near the buildings in the ‘Air15’ clip are,apparently, some of the ‘defensive burnouts’ that were known to have been conducted later in the day on Sunday in/around that residence on Miner’s Camp Road.
These ‘buildings’ seen in the upper left corner when this video clip begins are actually only 1,436 feet ( 478 yards ) due NORTH of the Tennis Court at the Double Bar A Ranch.
The 4:15 PM VLAT 911 retardant drop seen in this video clop is taking place from WEST to EAST and BETWEEN the “Miner’s Camp Road” location and the “Double Bar A Ranch” location just SOUTH of there.
NOTE: The remnants of this ‘retardant drop’ are still slightly visible even today in the latest January 4, 2014 Google Maps post-fire ground images of this “Miner’s Camp Road” location and these were used to draw the ‘approximate retardant drop path’ seen in this ‘crossfade’.
Once this new ‘crossfade’ video ‘pans back’ into the equivalent Google Earth imaging… the approximate location for this 14 second long retardant drop is marked on the ground itself.
SUMMARY
If we can still assume ( and I think we can ) that all of the 31 video clips in the ABC15 Helicopter ‘raw footage’ video have remained in sequential order as to when they were actually taken by ‘Air15’… then the FOUR clips that precede this one were definitely taken between 3:59 PM ( when ‘Air15’ first received clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33 )… and we can also assume that all the clips that follow this 4:15 PM Clip 05 then fall into the more narrow 23 minute timerange of 4:16 PM and 4:39 PM. 4:39 PM is when ‘Air15’ notified Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ that their ‘work was done’ and they were now ‘leaving the area’.
ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15’ actually informed Thomas French they were now ‘leaving the area’ DURING the MAYDAY radio calls themselves, at 4:39 PM.
More to come…
Thanks for doing this, WTKTT!
I’ve always wondered exactly where all those drops we have watched over and over again on the various Air Study videos were actually located.
Yes… the heavy ZOOM that was in effect for those Panebaker videos was ( as I’m sure you know ) really ‘distorting’ the distances and the perspective from Eric Panebaker’s location all the way back there by those crop circles where he was actually set up.
There are moments in the Panebaker videos when it looks like those ‘SPLIT VLAT drops’ are actually almost falling on the vehicles that can also be seen there working up on that hill on Model Creek Road.
That appears to just be an ‘illusion’ because of the focal distortion.
The VLAT SPLIT drops were ( apparently ) happening slightly farther WEST than that and over in that area between the Double-Bar-A-Ranch and that group of buildings on Miner’s Camp Road.
Exactly. Zoom lenses do that. We use them for exactly that purpose. To compress distances behind subjects and, thus, simplify the background.
For a long time I thought the vlat-split was coming off practically right over Hays Ranch Road. I did start realizing that wasn’t the case and that it fit the interviews, and what I was learning about the fire-fighting that was going on over there. that those drops were happening in the Model Creek area. but I didn’t know exactly where and I really wanted to know.
Especially after I saw the Daily Mail article with the aerials. THOSE retardant drops really DID work.
Also… if you look closely at the ABC15 clip 05 just posted above… there appears to be a small line of retardant there on the ground just next to those ‘buildings’ seen at the start of the video clip in the upper left corner of the video frame.
It appears to have been a SEAT drop right near those buildings that was meant to be direct support for the defensive burnouts that were already happening around those structures prior to the 4:15 PM VLAT 911 drop.
That SEAT drop near those buildings on Miner’s Camp Road was probably also captured in one of the Panebaker videos… but right now I can’t tell you exactly which one.
Oh and rumor has it the main mind set for the retired chief Dan in Prescott is to unionize the fire department. Again, I hope the current mayor does not step down and tries for another round because WHY is it we SEE 50-50; some google-eyed over seeing Dan as mayor and the rest say FIRE THE WHOLE CURRENT SYSTEM and start fresh and start over. When I hear that I just think it does not just happen in the firefighting community that is our current society and its sad…I either have worked or been a simple ol’ hiker/housewife and never saw how the system works as I have on the trails with Sonny. So much silliness is going on. I am a law abiding citizen so I thought…I reckon I am not when the YFD Chief is eager for my arrest. Now, Marti Reed. Number 100 you got the photos Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:05 PM and again tonight Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 6:50 PM and it does show a Montana Helitack ( Bitterroot forest helitack crew members were seen by locals too) so you can send to Bob Powers. Let me do some other stuff and get back here because I have important home stuff to do now that I am here short time and so if I got time later I will pop back on and keep telling you all the news. I cannot email any of you individual with updates so hope you look here still. Alot of the folks at the meeting yesterday HOPES John Dougherty does an investigation and they want to speak to him but I will pot it here bu when I got more time will email you John. I do not know any more information on the head cam or Brendan yet to me I am all for a time stamp video account of Brendan’s dating to July 2013 but anything now just too many elements can play out in this—I think it’s a lawyer tactic myself—and the MORE YARNELL COMMUNITY LOCALS that finally SHARE their accounts, videos and photos and for the firefighting folks—you want to be BRAVE and a HERO—freaking SHARE finally publicly vs. private. THAT TO ME IS A BRAVE HEROIC move…I won’t be online until geez I wish I can say next Sunday but most likely at a pc on Thanksgiving UNLESS I get something VERY HELPFUL and needs IMMEDIATELY to be shared—so until then…hope to find this MATT MANZANITA BACK BURN INFORMATION—
The Bitterroot Helitack I guess any thing is possible if the Payette Helitack was there they may have come down for other fires and stayed on as Fire backup resources and were assigned to Yarnell. Just didn’t see them on any dispatch order unless I missed it.
Thanks Joy and keep us informed we may not get much else unless every thing breaks loose.
Thanks Joy!!!
I’ve been pretty busy taking care of my mom, but wanted to let you know I caught this and will go back and look at the photos with that info as soon as I can.
I will try and post here. It seems to never post but try again…give it a shot-
This week was jam packed with so much information that I do not have the PC time to write it all out and pretty tight on things that no real sit down time to chat on it either except Sundays at 8pm-8:30pm Arizona time.
Shoot me a call the ones that have the number—otherwise I want to skim over some topics-
I met with retired government folks both in either wildfire/firefighting and military special assignments yesterday at 3pm. Right before that meeting a man came up to Sonny on the east side of hwy 89 across from the post office asking us to talk to him about the mayor and things like that. I was looking at him thinking (HELLO, MY NAME IS…OR WHERE HE IS FROM???) Yet it does not matter who he was or is because we say the same to all but he did state he worked for the YFD but was unsure if it was prior or current but did catch twelve years. We have no filter. It is the same said all around. I wish at times we did because as soon as we even mentioned the mayor a person who writes on THIS page has been trying to find out what the mayor knows or has and it was referred to him a “friend of a friend of a friend” Really? Be a straight shooter with him. Well, I have to say he always told us that one week of the fence he had more information—the topic of head cam was a discussion same day with Dr. Ted Putnam on the fire who IS NOT focused to the YHF but the Mann Gulch. Now I have no clue because people say “let’s hike” but it does not mean we will…kinda like Hollywood yet to this date anyone who asked us for a hike we have eventually hiked them.
I described the man who approached us at this meeting and they identified him as Errol Eastwood (46y.o. long time resident of Yarnell…his mother Monica owns the old Texaco gas station in Yarnell. He was the one who felt the YCSO was making him feel like a criminal when he stayed in Yarnell during evacuation to be with his mother and run to his home at 3am to feed his cats. This man said we had him in one of our photos so I thought some way someone gave him private photo links. Then he mentioned Penny Duncan was his neighbor and that was the lady & pets we saved (one of the folks we saved that day) on 6-30-13. I have soooooooooooo much information stirring and I just do not know where to start. I was given a pink piece of paper that says “MATT MANZANITA “video of back-burn” and when I tried to figure who was who in room and who handed it to me and why and what is it about…That would make 8 accounts now from locals with footage of a back burn between Sesame and the Helms plus one near the Ranch House Restaurant. YOU LOCALS really need to let me or media or John Dougherty or any fire investigator MINUS the SAIR but why not share to them too…maybe you can get a “oh shit” when you send them the photos as I have seen. Really. IT IS BEYOND THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!! Oh and I have 29 names of deaths since the fire and that is not all the names because I just have not had time to pay attention there but really alot of people are having severe health concerns in that community. I am awaiting a person name Ed in utah who helped build that area called the Boulder Springs Ranch. He has some very good information. Now I was busy today but yesterday I text the man named Errol who Dr. Leroy Anderson gave me the number and stated sorry we were short but I thought the library closed at 1pm not 2 and had stuff to do there. I am interested in HEARING more of his during evacuation accounts as well as his long history in Yarnell. I heard Errol’s name from ol’ hiking pal Tommy Maiden who died of cancer a few years ago…at 10:06am Errol text me back “Last night I was chatting with Lee helm, and we were talking about people hiking around the flagpole, and he told me that Chief Palm is trying to get you guys arrested for trespassing out there.” Well, Iemailed the Helms direct and no reply yet to confirm their dialect was complimentary but I also sent message to Chief Palm at 11:54 making him FULLY aware that I have heard this continuously about him arresting us so maybe we need to sit down with him but hey I spoke to Payne and Paxon last Summer 2013 and got the map as well as I have contacted State for any updates of the map or restrictions. I spoke to a deputy at YCSO on the legalities of such threats and where I trail. WHY IS CHIEF PALM so eager to have us arrested? That was my question to him..NO REPLY YET! When I get it I will let everyone know so they KNOW THE WAY HE EXPECTS US ALL TO TRAIL THAT AREA—I am not in the wrong to hike whoever out there so they can get closure or try to get answers to properly assess this fire and FREAKING A—19 men died. I’d be more like THANK YOU JOY FOR TAKING THE TIME OUT BECAUSE I AM BUSY—I let everyone know WHO we hike even at times I do not want to but we keep it with clarity—EVEN if someone says do not say my name than I still say ONE OF THE GMHS LOVED ONES we hiked—you see Chief Ben Palm…it is important they hike it with someone who knows the area like me because of the restrictions and state land and private land areas. Just for that alone is priceless than we can offer what we saw that day and weekend at the fire line not from in town. Like Charley Moseley stated (rest in peace Mose)
“Hey there bros, & many thanks for all the information. Hey the reason I refer to bros (…female smokejumper) “Bro” it is for ALL people who do things the right way and with enthusiasm. Joy and Sonny, you two really impress me—(hard to do)—and, I am highly appreciative of what you have done and are still doing. In the end, it is going to be your story that is going to prevail in this thing. Everybody else seems to have an axe to grind, or most probably, something to HIDE. You two are so upfront in all that you say and do that is most welcome to someone like me who has spent many years digging into cover ups, especially the Mann Gulch back in 1949 where our Forest Service first got away with high deceit and the practice of pushing the blame downhill.”
So for the fallen, the people who lost in all this in whatever manner—this will not end us helping—I have been asked and offered two decent jobs but I said not at this time, my life is completely dedicated to God’s time of revealing the TRUTH and you know what I will keep walking folks sick or not because it TAKES US ALL together to piece this out. If I disappear hiking a certain group or get arrested over a eager individual who has NO CLUE —God will handle it. I know in all my heart God would not allow me to be arrested over hiking and if it happened that way—I have the back up as I have been told from day one of a STRONG media force and there would be continuous coverage of HOW DARE THEY ARREST the ones just seeking clarity…and the how about this—How is it Yarnell can go to Peeples Valley to fight a fire and Peeples Valley fights Yarnell? Wouldn’t you want your own town to fight your own area because you know WHICH fire hydrants work and where they are, etc? OH THAT’S RIGHT CHIEF BEN PALM…you all get paid at a higher scale if you are not fighting your own area so again boils down to this bullshit money market game. Also who wants to awards on a tragedy (GOOGLE daily courier and read: “Arizona fire chiefs honor Fraijo” and “Former Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo honored for Yarnell Hill fire efforts” and “Fraijo, Hampton honored for Yarnell Hill fire efforts”) (Phillip “Mando” Maldonado he was a Granite Mountain Hotshot-when he joined the hike with us, I saw his eyes and believe you me 6-30-13 indeed was a tragedy yet to me acknowledging folks great—I mean United Way and Red Cross did an amazing job immediately as the evacuations happened yet I just do not see the award part-recognizing-sure but when you see people up close that have been affected by that weekend you will comprehend I meant nothing personal to me or us on awards or our accounts but to show there should be no awards but we should as a society just step up to the plate and help another—but it was weird to see the article was all-
does the sun rise and does the sun set?
Most think YES-sure yet facts are it APPEARS to rise and set because of the Earth’s rotation on its axis but it really cores down to appears-
it appears the SAIR stands by their report from THEIR position in this yet I know better that it sets different among others yet in it all we all state facts.I can tell you the facts from my position like it is hot today right here and from your position of where you are you may say it is hotter or colder yet it still remains we both just stated a fact.)(Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014
Article comment by: Joy Collura
Awards? That day the 19 men died changed our lives and believe you me I would never ever accept any kind of award for such a serious tragedy. Awards? Really? Really. I just do not get society. Tex and I both came back when the YCSO allowed residents to do so and helped 100s and yet if you ever once came to us with some award—I’d decline. This fire should never see any type of positive acknowledgement until it is fully investigated NOT the disservice the SAIR report did for the 19 fallen men and all fallen men—PLEASE, acknowledge everyone if you were to minus my photos from that weekend —there are still photos to arise and when they do in God’s time you will understand no way are awards to be given yet better education to wildfire fighting for their community. I would say THANK YOU to ALL that extended themselves to that weekend but never ever pick 2 out of all that did so much—
disappointed to see this—
NINETEEN men have no voice—
and children and wives and loved ones have no father, husband and etc…
I cannot believe this made it to press.
sad.)
Now, I am trying to wrap this up. be right back-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 2, 2014 at 8:58 pm
Thank you, Joy! ( Ongoing thanks, of course )
>> Joy wrote…
>>
>> Phillip “Mando” Maldonado he was a Granite Mountain Hotshot-when
>> he joined the hike with us, I saw his eyes and believe you me 6-30-13
>> indeed was a tragedy
Philip Maldonado left the Granite Mountain Hotshots circa March of 2013, not long before the tragedy. He moved to the ‘Solid Waste’ Division in Prescott and it was his departure that precipitated the appointment of a ‘new GM squad leader’ shortly before Yarnell.
Philip Maldonado was also the ‘squad leader’ who is seen actually conducting ( and leading ) that ‘Granite Mountain Fire Shelter Drill’ video that appeared shortly after the incident.
That ‘Granite Mountain Fire Shelter Drill’ video is here…
http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/04/for-hotshot-fire-crews-training-can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/
From the article…
—————————————————————–
Cronkite News
Wednesday, April 25, 2012… by Connor Radnovich
TITLE: For hotshot firefighting crews, preparing for the worst becomes a way of life
Phillip “Mando” Maldonado, a squad leader, shouts instructions as a dozen hotshots, firefighters trained to combat wildfires in extreme conditions, face a nightmare scenario: flames rushing in from all sides and their survival hinging on successfully unfolding and wrapping themselves in thin sheets of heat-reflecting material.
“Get down! Heads toward center!” Maldonado yells, the urgency in his voice rising.
Diving to the ground, crew members attempt to form a tight circle and point their feet toward the approaching flames. That will deflect heat and help protect their torsos. They clamp down on the edges of their emergency shelters to make sure fire, smoke and heat can’t get inside, and they keep their faces near the ground to breathe cooler air that won’t damage their lungs.
There’s nothing to do now but wait.
——————————————————————-
Some followup information for the post above regarding exactly WHEN Philip Maldonado left the Granite Mountain Hotshots, WHO actually replaced him as a ‘Squad Boss’… and WHEN that actually happened.
On Monday, March 18, 2013 Prescott City Manager Craig McConnell emailed authorization to specific managers in the Prescott Fire Department to go ahead and begin the process of hiring another ‘Squad Boss’ to replace Philip Maldonado because of his recent transfer to the City of Prescott’s ‘Solid Waste’ Division.
McConnell emailed Prescott Human Resources Director Mary Jacobsen directly with his authorization and two minutes after receiving that email from him she, in turn, forwarded it to Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo, Eric Marsh, Melissa Fousek, and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
The SUBJECT line for both emails was simply “Maldonado”.
Here is that email that Jacobsen forwarded to them containing City Manager McConnell’s ‘authorization’…
———————————————————
From: Jacobsen, Mary
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:44 PM
To: Fraijo, Dan; Marsh, Eric; Fousek, Melissa; Willis, Darrell
Subject: FW: Maldonado
See approval below for in-house posting.
Mary M. Jacobsen
Human Resources Director
mary (dot) jacobsen (at) prescott-az (dot) gov
928-777-1216 Phone
928-777-1213 Fax
————————————————————–
From: McConnell, Craig
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:42 PM
To: Jacobsen, Mary
Subject: RE: Maldonado
Proceed to fill the Wildland Division vacancy created by transfer of
Phil Maldonado to Solid Waste.
————————————————————–
The attempt to fill Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position went on for about 2 weeks following the ‘authorization’ from City Manager McConnell and apparently resulted in Robert Caldwell being ‘moved up’ to the postion of ‘Squad Boss’ to take Maldonado’s place.
Here is the letter that went out on April 4, 2013, informing Robert Caldwell that he was being promoted to ‘Squad Boss’…
————————————————————-
From: City of Prescott Human Resources Division
201 S. Cortez.
Prescott, AZ 86301
www (dot) cityofprescott (dot) net
(928) 777-1347
(928) 777-1213 ( Fax )
(928) 777-1100 ( TDD )
CONGRATULATIONS!
April 4, 2013
Mr. Robert Caldwell
Dear Robert;
This letter serves as formal notification of your promotion to
Wildland Squad Boss effective March 31, 2013. Your new grade
will be a 58 with a rate of $18.32, hourly. With all promotions,
the City requires that you complete a new probationary period
of one (1) year which, upon success, will end on March 31, 2014.
Your new position is FLSA classified as non-exempt, which means
that you are eligible for overtime. Your PTO accruals and benefits
will remain unchanged.
Congratulations on your new position. I wish you continued success
at the City of Prescott!
The mission of the City of Prescott is to provide SUPERIOR CUSTOMER
SERVICE to create a FINANCIALLY SUSTAINABLE CITY and to serve as
the LEADER OF THE REGION.
Sincerely,
Laura Markel
Benefits Specialist
Cc: Personnel File / Eric Marsh
——————————————————————————
So Robert Caldwell officially became Philip Maldonado’s replacement as a Granite Mountain ‘Squad Boss’ only on March 31, 2013… just 91 days before the Yarnell tragedy on June 30, 2013.
THAT HIKE WITH PHIL “MANDO”—SONNY WENT WAY AHEAD OF THE WEATHER CHANNEL AND US—HE DID NOT WANT A MAN WHO HAD FACIAL HAIR LIKE A TE R R ORIST…HE SAID WE DO NOT KNOW WHO HE IS…I SAID WE WON’T DENY HIM OR ANYONE…WE DID NOT KNOW IT WAS A PREVIOUS GMHS UNTIL MID HIKE AND EVEN THEN I KEPT QUIET…IT WAS VERY COLD AND NIPPY THAT HIKE YET THE MOMENT HE STOOD ABOVE THE MEN I SAW IN HIS FACE WE HIKED THE RIGHT PERSON…THIS MAN COULD GO WITH FELLOW FIREFIGHTERS OR WILLIS OR CHIEF BEN PALM BUT HE NEEDED THIS HIKE TO SEE HOW YOU CAN GO TO THE AREA LEGALLY SINCE THEY STILL HAVE AREA RESTRICTED. NOW HE CAN GO ANYTIME SOLO-
WE HOPE TO HAVE THE MILAN ITALY ARTIST DO THE MURAL SO ANYONE CAN SEE THE WAY TO GO WITHOUT HAVING TO HAVE US THERE BECAUSE IT US A PRIVATE THING FOR SOME—
I DO HAVE SOME THAT COME TO ME STILL TO THIS DAY “JOY, MOVE ON…MOVE FORWARD…LET THE MEN GO…GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE…THEY WOULD WANT THAT..”
HELL NO. I HAVE NO AXE TO GRIND BUT I DO KNOW IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO GET THIS FIRE PROPERLY ASSESSED—SO LOCALS KEEP COMING TO ME WITH YOUR INFORMATION. YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO STOP BY WITHOUT INVITE TO MY CONGRESS HOME BUT PLEASE NEVER COME UNINVITED TO SONNY’S SPACE—HE DOES NOT LIKE PEOPLE IN HIS AREA—OLD RECLUSE MOUNTAIN MAN. YET YOU CAN SEE ME AT THE LIBRARY OR POST OFFICE OR JUST WALKING—I WILL STOP AND LOOK AT YOUR INFORMATION ANY DAY EVEN IF I AM OLD SOME DAY AND CANNOT GET OUT ANYMORE—
Thanks again, Joy… for your continuing participation in this ongoing discussion.
I don’t think Philip Maldonado was ever actually ‘interviewed’ by any of the investigation team(s)… but I believe he WAS on that ‘list’ of former GMHS that ADOSH sent emails to requesting interviews.
As far as we know… NONE of the list of maybe a dozen or so former GMHS that ADOSH contacted agreed to say anything at all about their time with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Not a word… good, bad, or ugly.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
To this day… the reluctance of ANY former GMHS to say anything at all about their time with that outfit is, itself, rather strange.
Reardless… It’s probably pretty safe to say that the ‘look’ you say you saw on Maldonado’s face when he saw where all those men died might have been him thinking how close he came to being one of the dead men, himself.
He might have been thinking that if not for the sake of 91 days, and a job opening with the Solid Waste Division back in Prescott only back in Marsh of 2013… he, himself, might have also died in that canyon.
As for ‘grinding axes’… I don’t get that from your posting.
I think you are simply like a lot of others still searching for the full TRUTH about that weekend in Yarnell… and ( also like others )… you know that trees only fall with ‘one swing of the axe’ at a time.
With enough ‘swings of the axe’… the tree ( eventually ) falls.
Reading my way through this post. Thank you Joy. So much here.
This really jumps out for me and I agree.
You wrote:
“Awards? That day the 19 men died changed our lives and believe you me I would never ever accept any kind of award for such a serious tragedy. Awards? Really? Really. I just do not get society. Tex and I both came back when the YCSO allowed residents to do so and helped 100s and yet if you ever once came to us with some award—I’d decline. This fire should never see any type of positive acknowledgement until it is fully investigated NOT the disservice the SAIR report did for the 19 fallen men and all fallen men—PLEASE, acknowledge everyone if you were to minus my photos from that weekend —there are still photos to arise and when they do in God’s time you will understand no way are awards to be given yet better education to wildfire fighting for their community. ”
I understand the emotional motive for wanting to uplift certain people who, in certain circumstances, personally confronted certain kinds of chaotic danger (physical or social) to themselves in order to help others.
But the overall total fustercluck aftermath of this overall total fustercluck fire calls every so-called “award” into question.
For example, I respect Gary Cordes for, relatively speaking, risking his life going into Glen Illah, as it was burning, to find and save people. Yes I do.
But that wouldn’t have even been, most likely, necessary, if the realization that Bravo 3 had (at around fifteen minutes past noon) that the fire was, most likely, going to turn (under the most likely thunderstorms) and burn back uphill (as fires most naturally do) toward, the south/southwest and thence to Yarnell and Glen Illah, had been effectively communicated, effectively received, and effectively dealt with..
So, yes, why should Gary Cordes get an award when the action for which he got that award was in response to the negligence of the people above him regarding that fire?
What does it mean when certain individuals get awards for their personal bravery in response to something that has been seriously mis-managed and seriously mis-investigated? Thank you Joy, for raising this question..
And I’ve AWAYS thought Brian and Trew, of the Blue Ridge Hotshots, deserve at lease SOME kind of award for their bravery on this fire, if ANYBODY else did. Because of the USFS gag order, what”s their award? A Gag and then a bit of a naturally resulting Post Traumatic Stress experience.
So much for the AWARDS related to this fire.
**
** ARIZONA FORESTRY WANTS WRONGFUL DEATH SUITS DISMISSED
The Attorneys for the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry have been busy.
Not only are they still trying to get the ADOSH findings dismissed for what they call a ‘lack of substantive evidence’… a few days ago they came at the whole thing from the other direction and filed a petition for the ‘wrongful death’ suits themselves to be ‘dismissed’ as ‘invalid’.
What’s odd about this petition is that they are ‘showing their cards’ with how they intend to pursue a defense in the wronfgul death lawsuits IF they are allowed to proceed.
In the petition… the AZ State Lawyers admit flat-out that it is THEIR position that the Granite Mountain Hotshots WERE de-facto ’employees’ of the State of Arizona at the time of their deaths.
That is allowing them to ALSO take the position that their deaths ( for whatever reason ) are, in fact, fully covered by that ‘Exclusive Result’ clause of ‘workers compensation’ insurance.
It is also allowing them to cite an obscure clause in Arizona Law which says that anyone fighting a fire while a de-facto employee of the State of Arizona is NOT capable of committing any negligence whatsoever.
So that allows them to claim that no ‘negligence’ could possibly be proved which means that the simple ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Arizona State Workers Compensation insurance must be the ‘end of the story’ with regards to any fatalities suffered in Yarnell.
This is basically the same ‘get out of responsibility free’ card that the City of Prescott was already claiming before the ‘wrongful death’ suits were ever filed.
The ADOSH report is what first established (officially) that there WAS negligence in that workplace on June 30, 2013… so that is why Arizona Forestry has to attack the report. If they can get that ‘evidence of negligence’ mitigated ( or even negated ) then it would be soley up to the attorneys for the families to prove there was any ‘negilgence’ that day.
They must be thinking that they will NOT be able to get those ADOSH findings ‘mitigated’ and that that evidence of ‘negligence’ will survive the upcoming review of those findings… so now they have to ‘power up the shields’ and try to say that regardless of any proof of negligence… the wrongful death lawsuits still don’t rise about the simple ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Arizona’s own Workers Compensation Insurance.
They really, really don’t want any of this to go to court, and have all the ‘evidence’ come out.
If they lose both the attempt to mitigate the ADOSH findings AND they lose the attempt to have the lawsuits dismissed… they will most likely ( then ) ‘settle’ the suits with the plaintiffs and probably put stipulations in the settlement that nothing they tell the families about what happened that day can ever show up in the press or become ‘public’ knowledge.
AZCENTRAL article…
State Seeks Dismissal of Suit in Yarnell Hill Fire
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/10/25/yarnell-fire-lawsuit-hotshots-survivors/17894343/
In the article above… one of the attorneys for the families of the Hotshots that died ( Patrick McGroder ) reiterated, in no uncertain terms, that while there basically HAVE to be compensatory amounts involved in order to even file a civil suit… that is NOT ( and never has been ) the real reason the families filed the suits.
The REAL reason is because they ‘Want to KNOW the TRUTH’ about what happened.
And THAT also seems to be the one thing that Arizona Forestry does NOT want either them or the public to ever know.
I hope the following statement from Mr. McGroder means that the plaintiffs will NOT accept any ‘settlement’ that puts any kind of ‘gag order’ on the families when it comes to information that might be provided as part of any ‘settlement’.
From the article…
—————————-
Although the lawsuit seeks compensation, Patrick McGroder, an attorney for surviving families, said monetary damages were not the motive or objective. “The underpinning of this litigation is really the families want transparency and responsibility and, most importantly, a forum to ensure changes … so this doesn’t happen again,” he added.
—————————-
Very Interesting
I think this is just the beginning of the back and forth by lawyers as I have seen in the past. It could take some time in the filing and cross filing of different legal briefs to get to a settlement or an actual trial. This will challenge the fortitude of the Families
And could last awhile getting to a trial or settlement.
A copy of the actual ‘Motion for Dismissal’ filed in District Court by the Arizona State Attorneys is here…
http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/27/Yarnell%20Dismiss.pdf
Notice that it is ONLY asking for ‘dismissal’ of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits as it pertains to Arizona State agencies and employees. It does NOT ask for dismissal on behalf of ALL the ‘defendants’ named in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
It will be impossible now ( going forward ) for Arizona Forestry to try and throw Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or GM and/or Prescott Wildland Division ‘under the bus’ if the case goes to trial.
Their claims for ‘dismissal’ are all based on a de-facto admission that Marsh, Steed and ALL of Granite Mountain were, in fact, employees of the State of Arizona at the time they all died.
From the claim itself.
The State of Arizona attorneys are ‘stipulating’ that, in no uncertain terms, Marsh, Steed and ALL of Granite Mountain were employees of the State of Arizona when they died…
——————————-
At the time of their deaths, the decedents and the other members of the Prescott Fire Department’s Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were working under the jurisdiction and control of the State, and within its jurisdictional boundaries, pursuant to an intergovernmental agreement between the Prescott Fire Department and the State.
———————————-
Here’s a new one for you all.
Evidently, Brendan McDonough has had somewhat of an epiphany of the tragic YHF events and has finally decided to come forward. He is said to have. approached SAIT members in order to reveal more of what he heard on 30 June 2013 on the GMHS Crew Net radio channel. He will be deposed this week or next by attorneys and his deposition will then be “released” after that. But released to whom? It’s not yet clear on whether this recent deposition will be released publicly or just to the attorneys and in the courts.
One has to question the accuracy, validity, and veracity of his statements after coming forward a year and a half after the incident. What with all the exposure to the media, investigators, friends and family, and many more – how ‘tainted’ will his testimony be UNLESS he took really good notes of all that he heard that day? Except for when he may have been distracted moving GMHS vehicles, he heard just about everything that day on the GHMS Crew Net. He knows what the GMHS overhead talked about.
I wonder if the “epiphany” is at all related to talk of the extra 43 minutes of helmet footage.
What I can’t understand is that no one cared to do a thorough debrief of McDonough at the time of the event, before his memory was completely affected by all of the pressures and events around him. It’s not a question of veracity or intentions. In my belief, anyone would be affected by some of the same things. so, in assessing anything he says, for me it would be important to see if it jibes with what is known, and what may be a simple explanation for what occurred. Or, if it jibes with what feels good, and is a PC explanation for what occurred.
Thank you for this and BINGO to SR.
See a bit below what I’m asking WTKTT about what info etc AZF was “gathering” July 1 and 2 (and maybe even later) from Blue Ridge and Peeples Valley crews. And, thus, who knows from whomever else. Including, YOU WOULD THINK, from Brendan.
And also there was an AAR–Tuesday evening, I think. Who knows who was involved in that or what they discussed or whether or not it was “archived.”
After Ted Putnam refused to sign the SAIR of the South Canyon Fire, he eventually published his own Human Factors Analysis of the fire. He interviewed people in order to do that. I haven’t had time to read that Analysis. But I think I now will.
I want to see what he says about interviewing witnesses after some time (and a SAIR) has passed.
But that was also before the explosion of social media. Who knows how much THAT has influenced what Brendan now may think he heard and experienced that day.
I do think his awareness that the full helmet-cam video is about to be released (and I would assume he would be among those whom are being currently shown it) is both a stimulus for him to speak out and also, possibly (depending on what’s on it), a reality-check on his otherwise likely memory-bending.
If it turns out that Brendan McDonough really has had his own ‘agenda’ all along… and really HAS always been ‘withholding testimony’… I think this young man is going to finally learn that once those horses leave the barn it’s hard to put them back.
There are a lot of people, at this point, that wouldn’t trust ANYTHING he now has to say even if he put his hand on a Bible in the Civil Proceedings and swore to “tell the truth”.
I still think he should tell all he knows. Everything.
I think he should have done that from DAY ONE.
I think he has always been badly advised by mentor figures that have also always had their OWN agendas.
Whatever Brendan says now… it will be a TBV moment.
“Trust… but VERIFY”.
SIDENOTE: If it really does actually turn out that Brendan has always been behaving in a way that could be construed as “obstructing an investigation”… I wonder if he will have to give up his Arizona State Senate special appointment to the official Arizona Granite Mountain State Memorial Committee?
A lot of new stuff out there stacking up. I’ll beat JD is busy trying to get the info for IM.
I think Johns last article may just prove its info True.
Now we wait for what we have all thought existed.
It could very well be that a LOT of this ‘new’ evidence will never see the light of day… if Arizona Forestry is actually trying to work some kind of DEAL with the plaintiffs in the civil lawsuits.
The ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits state specifically that they want to know the TRUTH about what happened that day.
Well… maybe in exchange for a ‘settlement’… AZF is trying to arrange for them to finally learn that… but ONLY if they agree to never share that information with the press or the public.
It’s possible.
Personally… I hope the plaintiffs do NOT agree to any kind of DEAL like that.
I think the PUBLIC also deserves to know what really happened that entire weekend in Yarnell.
I believe the more people involved with the information the grater chance they will start to talk and release the info sooner or later A number of people outside the State AZF have now reviewed the Head cam audio Some one will start to talk to the media. As for McDonough we will have to see if what he stated to is or is not legally confidential As a Crewman he was in charge of NO decisions concerning the crew and would be classed as a witness only. His testimony could as well be backed up by BR and the Head Cam or other audio recordings. His testimony now may be biased on being caught in a corner with continued silence about what he herd and he decided to tell all.
Or some of the family actually got to him, we shall see if the testimony surfaces it will be thru media pressure.
Copy that.
It’s also possible that at this stage the attorneys for the plaintiffs are issuing their subpoenas for witnesses… and Brendan’s attorney is trying to negotiate some kind of DEPOSITION versus an actual in-person court appearance that would be subject to cross-examination.
If the plaintiff’s attorneys agree to that… then it’s hard to say whether that additional ‘testimony’ from Brendan would ever be publicly available.
It would pretty much have to be ‘read into the testimony’ at the civil trial and then the records would need to remain unsealed in order for the public to ever ‘see’ that full deposition itself.
It’s complicated.
I just hope he tells everything he knows to SOMEONE… and that that leads to a better explanation ( for the families sake ) of why their loved ones all died that day.
They really do deserve to know as much as possible about what REALLY happened that weekend.
The Only thing we really don’t know is the circumstances that lead them to where they died.
I still contend as from the first day Marsh and Steed made some very critical bad decisions that put the crew where they were.
They and they alone were responsible for the crew.
I doubt that the answers are going to be happy ones or any relief for the families.
So, any idea how the new 43 minutes of helmet-cam material that ADOSH has relates to existing document request? Would getting people to file new requests be helpful in jarring this loose at this point?
It sounds like this material may well change, dramatically, the narrative of the fire. And, change dramatically the already negative view of the SAIT and SAIR, with questions along the lines of “why didn’t you guys release this? You really didn’t notice this?” etc.
By this point one would also think the contents of that new 43 minutes would have been shared informally a little more broadly.
Well.. it seems to remain rather mysterious and complicated.
Example: Aaron Hulburd shot that video. He works for Prescott National Forest. IF he first tried to go through his own normal work channels to get that evidence to the Arizona Forestry investigators… then I suppose the FEDS are the ones the that still have the originals.
If he did NOT do that… and gave whatever he had ( all of it? ) directly to the SAIT investigators, then ( theoretically ) ALL of whatever he gave them SHOULD be obtainable with simple Arizona Open Records requests.
However… keep in mind that we already know for sure that Arizona Forestry pulled a ‘fast one’ with OTHER evidence they had which ended up being controlled by the FEDS.
We know, for sure, that Arizona Forestry ( at some point ) had copies of the FULL ( unredacted ) Unit Logs from Blue Ridge. We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby, Brown, Fueller and Ball.
But when the Arizona Open Records requests started to show up… Arizona Forestry then ‘pretended’ that they did NOT have the full unredacted Unit Logs and they then tried to say that evidence was controlled by the FEDS and anyone wanting it had to file Toughy requests with the FEDS, and not THEM.
So maybe the same thing has been going down with regards to Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam material.
At some point ( or perhaps even now ) Arizona Forestry seems to have had everything Hulburd filmed… but they only decided to RELEASE those 7 minutes and 49 seconds that only cover the MAYDAY transmissions.
Any attempts to get the FULL material they might have may be being ‘punted’ back to the FEDS, just like the game they played with the Blue Ridge interviews and Unit Logs.
The rumor is still that ( despite all this gamesmanship ) Arizona ADOSH seems to have filed all the right ‘requests’ ( either AZ Open Records or FED Touhy requests ) and they were somehow able to get ALL of Hulburd’s evidence.
If that really IS true… then ( again, theoretically ), whatever ADOSH has should now ALSO be obtainable with simple Arizona Open Records requests since ADOSH is an Arizona State Level agency and is NOT actually ‘Federal OSHA’.
The ‘catch’ in ALL of this, however, is that there really are always ways that someone who has material subject to FOIA / FOIL requests can STILL claim ‘exceptions’ and ‘reasons’ why they should not have to release certain things.
The FEDS might have coughed up ALL of Hulburd’s footage to ADOSH via a Touhy request… but they might still have put ‘restrictions’ on it due to some ‘exceptions’ they might be claiming such as the generic ‘privacy concerns’.
I still think the key to understanding exactly what exists, exactly how it got into Arizona Forestry’s hands, and exactly what is contained in the material…
…is Aaron Hulburd himself.
He can be ‘compelled to testify’ in the civil litigation and someone can eventually just ASK him what the truth is, here.
Unless this Helmet-Cam stuff just showed up on someone’s doorstep at Arizona Forestry… it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue mission’. itself.
No one has ever seen these ‘interviews’ or even an NOTES from them.
So Arizona Forestry has always been playing ‘fast and loose’ even with fulfilling legal Arizona Open Records requests.
If they had ALL the Hulburd footage since day one, and they also did any kind of ‘interview’ with Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell… then all that material SHOULD have been released in response to even the first round of legal Arizona Open Records requests.
They didn’t.
We KNOW that AZF has withheld all KINDS of stuff from those legal Arizona Open Records requests.
That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.
It’s a mess… but it is now a mess of Arizona Forestry’s own making.
Someone REALLY doesn’t want the public ( or even the families of the men who lost their lives ) to know what actually happened that day.
You wrote:
“We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby, Brown, Fueller and Ball.”
How do you know that? (Not questioning YOU, just that I don’t remember that and trying to figure out WHO had WHAT and WHEN)
You wrote:
” it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue mission’. itself.”
When do you think AZF interviewed them? Are we talking about July 1/2 when, apparently, they were getting Blue Ridge to write up those logs and getting that info from the Peeples Valley crew?
You wrote:
“That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.”
And, don’t forget, all their PHOTOGRAPHS!
Working off the top of my head, did the Peeples Valley Crew say they were interviewed?
Thanks in advance.
It’s been really hard to keep track, over all this time, of who has been releasing what in response to what, and when they have been releasing it, and what they most likely were collecting from whom and when, and, thus, what they most likely still have in their back pockets. With or/and without the protections/interference by the USFS.
And, yeah, thinking now about how long it seems to have taken for AZF to redact the Blue Ridge Logs and then finally release them. My magic markers are a whole lot faster than that. I think they are smarter, too.
Reply from Marti Reed post on October 30, 2014 at 5:36 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was
>> allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby,
>> Brown, Fueller and Ball.”
>>
>> How do you know that?
From very top of page 6 of the ‘SAIT Investigation Notes’ document…
——————————————-
Interview with Blue Ridge IHC
Supt: Brian Frisby Foreman:
True Brown Squad Boss:
Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
Interviewed by Godot, Jay, Jimmie, Tim, Jim, and Mike 07/10/2013
——————————————-
The DATE of the notes means that the SAIT was allowed to interview them ( in person ) just 10 days after the tragedy and these were some of the very first interviews the newly formed SAIT conducted.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley also directly admitted ( in public ) that they had these ‘in person’ interviews with members of Blue Ridge.
He even said that these ‘in person’ interviews they had with Blue Ridge were second in importance only to their ‘in person’ interview with Brendan McDonough himself.
From the transcript of SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s speech in front of that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014…
So when we gathered as a team… we started gathering the facts.
We had a key… core group of interviews… and… ya look at the
immediate membership of the type two team and key components
and from that… we expanded out who we wanted to interview.
————————————————–
Mike Dudley said…
The most critical interview… was the LOOKOUT… because he
was there on the site and he could walk us through the area.
The next most critical intervew was the Blue Ridge Hotshots
because their leadership… they were right there workin’ with
Granite Mountain and knew Granite Mountain extremely well
‘cus they’re so close… they spent a lotta time together.
The third critical interview was the ASM… or in this case… because
we’re all fire people… it was Bravo 33 that was over the site. They
heard communications.
Those were the three most critical interviews and then you expanded
it out from there.
————————————————————-
There are also public statements from SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley which indicate there was far more information being provided via these interviews with Blue Ridge than was ever included in these SAIT ‘interview notes’.
Example…
At +1 hour and 40 minutes into Dudley’s speech, a Utah firefighter asked Dudley if they ( the SAIT ) had found any evidence of ‘dissension’ within GM about making that risky move that afternoon.
Dudley then QUOTES someone from ‘Blue Ridge’… but the information he is quoting as having come from their ‘interviews’ with Blue Ridge is nowhere to be found in their own publicly released SAIT interview notes.
——————————————————————-
+1:04:10
* Question from audience member: Do you know of any… uhm… dissention
* within the crew… did they try and split off at any point prior to or during
* the deployment?
Dudley: The question is… was there any decision… dissention within the crew
and did any folks try to split off. Ah… Blue Ridge made the comment.. a number of those folks… they said “you know what… when they left the lunch spot… they were ALL in lock-step with one other”… because that was a pretty cohesive crew. Uh.. they were very, very close to one another.
————————————————————–
NOTE: What does Dudley mean by this? Does he mean that Blue Ridge actually SAW them leaving the lunch spot ( with binoculars, or something )?… or does he mean that Blue Ridge HEARD them ‘deciding’ to leave and didn’t hear any dissention or disagreement?
Whatever ‘Blue Ridge’ statement SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is talking about there… it is NOWHERE in their own NOTES from their own interview with Blue Ridge.
That pretty much means there is probably a LOT that ‘Blue Ridge’ was telling them during those July 10 ‘interviews’ that never made into their own SAIT notes released in response to FOIA requests.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> ” it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW
>> Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then
>> have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell…
>> since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue
>> mission’. itself.”
>>
>> When do you think AZF interviewed them?
>> Are we talking about July 1/2 when, apparently, they
>> were getting Blue Ridge to write up those logs and
>> getting that info from the Peeples Valley crew?
I think it took longer than that for them to even become aware that Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera footage even existed.
The SAIT wasn’t even fully ‘formed’ and ‘authorized’ until July 4.
Whatever ‘interviewing’ or ‘evidenced gathering’ was happening prior to the issuance of that official ‘transfer of investigative authority’ from AZF to the SAIT on July 4 was simply some UNKNOWN number of Arizona Forestry officials conducting their own preliminary ‘interviews’ and gathering of evidence. That includes the interviews and evidence gathering with the Peeples Valley firefighters. That all preceded the actual ‘transfer of investigative’ authority from AZF to the newly assembled SAIT.
We have no idea WHEN Aaron Hulburd made any attempt to give what he had to ANYONE… or WHO he first gave it to… so I really can’t even venture a guess as to when the SAIT first became aware of it.
However… we know that by August 22… both of the following were true…
1) ADOSH’s Wildland Fire Associates investigators themselves were already aware of Hulburd’s ‘recordings’. They mention them directly in their August 22 in-person interview with OPS1 Todd Abel.
2) In that same August 22 interview when ADOSH mentioned that someone had ‘recorded’ all of the MAYDAY traffic to Todd Abel… Abel was not the least bit surprised and just said “Yep” in confirmation. So somehow OPS1 Todd Abel himself seemed to be fully aware of this ‘Helmet Cam’ footage even before he stepped into the room for his ADOSH interview.
So the only thing we seem to know for sure is that sometime between July 1, 2013, and August 22, 2013… certain ‘select’ individuals ( even including OPS1 Todd Abel ) were fully aware of Hulburd’s Helmet Cam ‘footage’ ( at least the part where the MAYDAY traffic was fully captured ).
I would imagine, then, that the SAIT had also fully interviewed Aaron Hulburd ( AND Jason Clawson AND KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) before the end of July, at the latest.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records
>> we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters
>> who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.”
>>
>> Working off the top of my head, did the Peeples Valley Crew
>> say they were interviewed?
Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon himself has posted his OWN account about all this ( in his OWN words and not through a reporter ) on a PUBLIC website/blog associated with the Yarnell Hill Recovery Effort.
That PUBLIC testimony from Bob Brandon is still right here…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
From Bob Brandon’s own PUBLIC account of some ‘mysterious’ investigators interviewing he and the other Peeples Valley FFs on July 2, ( and taking lots of evidence form them ) just two days after the tragedy…
————————————————————-
The next day they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
—————————————————————-
NOTE: We still have NO idea who the ‘They’ people are that Bob Brandon says did all this interviewing and collected all this evidence from them… or WHERE any of that evidence is NOW.
The FULL transcript of this PUBLIC testimony from Bob Brandon was posted back in Chapter VIII ( EIGHT ) of this ongoing discussion.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, don’t forget, all their PHOTOGRAPHS!
And ( even more importantly )… some VIDEOS they also (apparently) took.
ANY ‘video’ from that day has the chance of containing background radio captures that might not have been heard before.
Followup… there was a formatting ‘screw up’ ( my bad ) up above with that section where Mike Dudley admitted in PUBLIC that they ( the SAIT ) considered their in-person interviews with Blue Ridge second in importance only to their Brendan McDonough interview.
I put the START of the Dudley quote(s) in the wrong place.
That section above SHOULD have looked like this…
————————————————–
Mike Dudley said…
So when we gathered as a team… we started gathering the facts.
We had a key… core group of interviews… and… ya look at the
immediate membership of the type two team and key components
and from that… we expanded out who we wanted to interview.
The most critical interview… was the LOOKOUT… because he
was there on the site and he could walk us through the area.
The next most critical intervew was the Blue Ridge Hotshots
because their leadership… they were right there workin’ with
Granite Mountain and knew Granite Mountain extremely well
‘cus they’re so close… they spent a lotta time together.
The third critical interview was the ASM… or in this case… because
we’re all fire people… it was Bravo 33 that was over the site. They
heard communications.
Those were the three most critical interviews and then you expanded
it out from there.
————————————————————-
This also has to do w/what RTS and are writing up above about Brendan being debriefed.
Apparently AZF debriefed/or whatevered Blue Ridge and the Peeples Valley Crew.
So are you thinking (as actually I am and have pretty much doing so all along but there has been no EVIDENCE released) that AZF was, in fact, debriefing/interviewing whoever they could get to sit down with them ASAP (as they probably should have been doing–and there WAS an AAR, don’t forget), and that would likely mean there is possibly/probably a WHOLE lot of stuff conveniently sitting in their back pocket along with the whole helmet-cam video?
I meant to say “what Robert The Second and SR are saying above.”
Marti… yes… I believe AZF was gathering all the information they could BEFORE the transfer of ‘investigative authority’ to this SAIT thing even took place ( on July 4, 2013 ).
I believe this is also just more ‘gamesmanship’ on the part of AZF.
We must ASSUME that AZF actually SHARED whatever they already had with Jim Karels and Mike Dudley just after they stepped off airplanes… but we have no actual PROOF of that.
Even if they ( AZF ) did share everything they already had with Karels and Dudley as soon as they were ‘authorized’ to start seeing the material ( on July 4, 2013 )… the gamesmanship may have extended to the Arizona Public Records requests that started arriving after the SAIR came out.
In other words… the GAME that AZF might have been playing then is that if an ‘Open Records’ request was targeted specifically at the SAIT… they might have been playing the game where they thought they could get away with holding back any evidence that THEY had originally collected.
It’s the game that many public agencies play with regards to FOIA and FOIL requests. If the request for the information is not targeted specifically to the agency that actually claims OWNERSHIP of the material… then you get to respond to the FOIA / FOIL with bullshit like “That information is not in the possession of this agency”.
It’s the Catch-22 with some FOIA / FOIL requests.
You are trying to find out what people have because you don’t know what they have… but that also means you don’t know exactly WHAT agency name to put on the request itself.
In other words… sometimes in order to get ALL the information you have to somehow already know what they have and WHO thinks they ‘own’ it.
Maybe that’s what happened with all the Peeples Valley evidence.
It was collected by AZF just BEFORE the SAIT was formed… so if any FOIA / FOIL request had the SAIT name as a target… AZF could withhold evidence that they thought they could claim was solely THEIRS… and NOT the SAIT’s.
It’s all just pure gamesmanship and mental gymnastics to find any way you can to NOT cooperate with legal requests for information.
It’s just like the Blue Ridge Unit Logs.
The SAIT was able to SEE the unredacted versions ( even though they are ‘owned’ by the FEDS ) and learn everything they possibly could from them… but then when the State-Level Arizona Open Records requests for those Unit Logs started to show up they were able to pretend they were never ‘in their possession’ and, as such, were NOT subject to an Arizona Open Records request at all.
The SAIT got to see the complete versions.
Mike Dudley ( USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead ) saw to that.
But as far as ‘ownership’ goes… they could always deny ‘owning’ the material themselves or having to turn it over to any valid Arizona Open Records request.
Fun game, eh?
Regarding government officials, the press, and lying.
I’ve been pretty closely following the events in Ferguson/Saint Louis over the past 80 days since Mike Brown was shot down by a Ferguson Police Officer. It’s been a hot mess of Cover-Up and continuing police brutality.
Someone in my Ferguson Twitter List recently posted an article by Ben Bradlee, the recently deceased Washington Post editor. As I read it, I realized how relevant is is to what I think we are dealing with regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. They really do lie.
In His Own Words: Ben Bradlee On Liars
“”Ben Bradlee, who passed away Tuesday at age 93, was executive editor of The Washington Post from 1968 to 1991. This essay is excerpted from the Press-Enterprise Lecture he delivered at the University of California, Riverside, on Jan. 7, 1997.”
“Newspapers don’t tell the truth under many different, and occasionally innocent, scenarios. Mostly when they don’t know the truth. Or when they quote someone who does not know the truth.
And more and more, when they quote someone who is spinning the truth, shaping it to some preconceived version of a story that is supposed to be somehow better than the truth, omitting details that could be embarrassing.
And finally, when they quote someone who is flat-out lying. There is a lot of spinning and a lot of lying in our times — in politics, in government, in sports and everywhere. It’s gotten to a point where, if you are like me, you no longer believe the first version of anything. It wasn’t always that way.
I guess it started for me with Vietnam, when the establishment felt it had to lie to justify a policy that, as it turned out, was never going to work.”
SNIP
“America did start to lose faith in its leaders. All that information is contained in the Pentagon Papers, incidentally, if anybody ever wonders why newspapers raised such hell about being denied the right to print information from those documents. The idea, incidentally, that any of that was secret boggles your mind. And yet the government of Richard Nixon took two papers to the Supreme Court to try to stop them from publishing a story for the first time in the history of the republic.”
SNIP
Regarding the risks the Washington Post was taking to out all the lies:
“Let me just take a little riff on this one because it is so outrageous. It’s a civil case where you’re not indicted, but if you lose a civil case, you know damn well you’re going to be indicted. And if you’re indicted and you happen to lose in front of a jury, you know damn well that your newspaper is going to lose all its television stations because a felon can’t own a television station.”
(I’m thinking that works the other way around also. Ahem.)
SNIP
“Even the very best newspapers have never learned how to handle public figures who lie with a straight face. No editor would dare print this version of Nixon’s first comments on Watergate, for instance: ‘The Watergate break-in involved matters of national security, President Nixon told a national TV audience last night, and for that reason he would be unable to comment on the bizarre burglary. That is a lie.’
We won’t dare do that. But that is what it was, and, for better or for worse, we aided and abetted in publishing something that wasn’t the truth, something that was a lie. I hate to hedge this by calling them non-truths; I like to call them lies. And even the boldest editorial pages, where such a comment might be appropriate, are reluctant to strike that hard, that fast.”
SNIP
“The conservative pundit William Schneider, whom most of you know or have seen on television, had it just about right, it seems to me, when he said: ‘Gingrich’s violation of House rules was not an inadvertent error. It was a systematic pattern of deception, carried out with hubris and defiance over several years.’ You know it’s one or the other; it can’t be both.”
SNIP
“The more aggressive our search for truth, the more some people are offended by the press. The more complicated are the issues and the more sophisticated are the ways to disguise the truth, the more aggressive our search for truth must be, and the more offensive we are sure to become to some.
So be it.
Remember, Walter Lippmann was right so many years ago when he wrote that, in a democracy, the truth and nothing but the truth are rarely available immediately. In a democracy, the truth emerges — sometimes it takes years — and that is how the system is supposed to work and eventually strengthen itself.
I take great strength from that now, knowing that in my experience, the truth does emerge. It takes forever sometimes, but it does emerge. And that any relaxation by the press will be extremely costly to democracy.
“http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-his-own-words-ben-bradlee-on-liars/2014/10/22/6236cadc-4a67-11e4-a046-120a8a855cca_story.html
That link didn’t post correctly. I guess because the quotation mark ended up in the wrong place. Here is is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-his-own-words-ben-bradlee-on-liars/2014/10/22/6236cadc-4a67-11e4-a046-120a8a855cca_story.html
Hey Sonny:
On OCTOBER 21, 2014 AT 10:30 AM sonny gilligan wrote:
“Bob, one thing when we had a visit with Ted Putnam is that he noticed a Montana unit of firefighters helitac unit truck in one of the new photos Joy fished out a local person that had lost her home in the Yarnell fire. It was interesting that Ted said it was the first he knew of that and did not see that truck or hear of it in any of the investigative reports and considering his expertise I thought the photo ought to be put out there. I don’t know the significance of that truck but it is also time stamped and shows its location. This might be a photo of significance so email us and we will send the photo.”
At the beginning of this month I spent some serious time trying to identify all the aircraft on the fire June 30 and data-basing them with all the images of them, both on the fire and from other photos of them on the Internet. I didn’t quite finish doing it.
I don’t have any records of a helitack crew from Montana on the fire. There was a helitack crew from Idaho on the fire, connected to the helicopter 215KA, which was a major player on Sunday. That helicopter and their Price Valley Heli-Rappel Crew were assigned to the fire around 8AM (AZ time via the dispatch logs) on Sunday. At that time they were near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Their crew buggy had broken down and they were getting it fixed, so I don’t think it got to the fire any time soon.
But the helicopter w/some crew flew over and started working the fire about noon. And I’m guessing their chase truck took off about then, too, and headed to Yarnell, but I don’t know when it got there, and haven’t seen any visuals of it on the fire. I’ve been trying to figure this out.
My daughter’s father lives in Flagstaff (I live in Albuquerque) and she drives back and forth a lot. She said it usually takes her about 5 hours to drive it at about 85-90 mph (a bit over the speed limit). I don’t think the chase truck/crew would have been driving that fast, so I’d estimate it would take them about six hours. From Santa Fe to Albuquerque takes about an hour. I don’t know how long it takes from Flag to Yarnell, maybe about an hour and a half? So that would add up to about eight and a half hours, meaning they’wouldn’t have arrived until around 1630/4:30 PM at the earliest.
So, I’m REALLY curious about that photo and I will send you an email for it. I’m hoping the email address I have for you from way earlier this year is still accurate.
Thank you!
You have my correct E-Mail
Sonny may have mistaken McCall ID for Montana???
Price valley Ranger District is outside McCall Smoke Jumper Base
That’s what I’m thinking, but Sonny said Ted Putnam said the truck in the photo was from a Montana Crew. So I just want to make sure, plus I’d really like to have a photo of it.
Not to mention that the Moki helitack crew, from N Arizona/Southern Utah was also still there on Sunday, or at least their helicopter was, so it could also be their truck.
I’ve learned a lot working on these aircraft ids. How aircraft, crews, pilots, contractors, agencies connect and such. Plus it’s been kind of fun.
Way more fun than working on my mom’s income taxes!
I just got home from a 10-hour day and haven’t checked my email yet.
Wow, they sent me a boatload of photos today. Now I just have to find the one I’m looking for!
And now that I’ve perused the emails, I’ll send you that photo Bob–when I find it!
Marti if there was a truck it would show the Forest and district letters that would ID it as a Montana vehicle. Look for those back and sides.
Marti also the list of people and equipment on the fire would have the helitack crew listed. From the fire ordering and arrived resources.
Well, unfortunately, I haven’t found anything in the photos they sent me in an email that said “helitack should be in here” that is of a helitack crew truck on June 30.
There is a photo on July 2 that shows a “Minnesota Helitack” truck.
Reply to Marti Reed post October 28, 2014 at 8:51 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I don’t have any records of a helitack crew from Montana on the fire.
>> There was a helitack crew from Idaho on the fire, connected to the
>> helicopter 215KA, which was a major player on Sunday. That helicopter
>> and their Price Valley Heli-Rappel Crew were assigned to the fire
>> around 8AM (AZ time via the dispatch logs) on Sunday. At that time
>> they were near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Their crew buggy had broken
>> down and they were getting it fixed, so I don’t think it got to the fire
>> any time soon.
>>
>> But the helicopter w/some crew flew over and started working the
>> fire about noon. And I’m guessing their chase truck took off about
>> then, too, and headed to Yarnell, but I don’t know when it got there,
>> and haven’t seen any visuals of it on the fire. I’ve been trying
>> to figure this out.
About the best ( only? ) testimony about some / all of those ELEVEN Price Valley Helitack crew that were listed in the Resource Orders as actually being in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 is still the parts of Rance Marquez’s testimony to ADOSH.
DIVSZ Rance Marquez said he met up with them at the ICP and was actually ‘sitting with them’ there just prior to the time they supposedly got tapped to go help with structure protection in the Sickles Ranch Road area.
This would have been when Planning OPS2 Paul Musser decided to abandon his ‘Planning OPS’ role that day and jump into the fire as the second fully functioning FIELD OPS on the fire… which did nothing but add to the confusion that day.
So that would have been circa 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM.
We know that Musser was ‘done’ with the Sickles Ranch Road work just prior to 3:42 PM when he made his ‘availability check’ radio call out to DIVSA Eric Marsh.
Musser had either just arrived at SPGS1 Gary Codes’ position on the side of Highway 89 near Shrine Road when he made that 3:42 PM ‘availability’ check… OR he was making that call in his vehicle just BEFORE arriving at Cordes’ location.
All of that puts some/all of the Price Valley Helitack in Yarnell and helping with structure protection in the Sickles Ranch Road area at around 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM.
What is still most interesting about these (supposedly) ELEVEN Price Valley Helitack guys is not even so much that they seem to be just more people that Arizona Forestry was making it difficult to even know were IN Yarnell that day… but that Price Valley Helitack’s OWN annual report of their activities ALSO seems to be going out of its way to pretend that ‘Price Valley Helitack’ wasn’t even THERE in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Why would a proud organization with a long and distinguished history that also LOVES to ‘talk’ about everything they are engaged in be making some concerted effort to HIDE the fact that they were participating in the Yarnell Hill Fire?
It may be ( and will remain ) one of the most ‘historic’ fires this famous outfit has ever participated in… but whoever publishes their activity reports seems to want to try and keep it a secret that they were even THERE that day.
Very strange.
Very simple they along with all FS employees have been ordered not to talk or release any info about there Yarnell assignment. These orders are a reality with in the Federal employee ranks like it or not.
You are probably right… but it’s still very odd that you would use words like ORDERS and RANKS with regards to simple employees of a Government Civil Agency.
Despite what a lot of people in the US Forestry Department would LIKE to think… it is NOT the ‘military’.
Never has been. Probably never will be.
It is just another taxpayer-funded Civil Agency that simply EMPLOYS people to do a job.
Period. End of story.
There might be things you could do to LOSE that taxpayer funded civil service job… but no one is ever going to end up with an extended vacation in Leavenworth, Kansas just because they refused to do what someone higher up than they are in the US Forestry Service was trying to TELL them to do.
I really would love it if even just ONE of these Price Valley Helitack guys ( or, indeed, anyone other USFS employee being ‘gagged’ ) would wake up and realize that the US Forestry service does not OWN them… and cannot really ever tell them who they are allowed to talk to about what.
If they decided that THEY really just wanted to tell their OWN story about what they saw, heard or witnessed on June 30, 2013 ( to people of their own choosing )… and they happened to then ‘lose their civil service job’ as a direct result of exercising their own rights to free speech…
…I would also LOVE to see that worked in court.
There are even specific laws ALREADY on the books about such things that say you CANNOT be punished like that ( even by your employer ) for exercising your rights to free speech.
It would be a REALLY interesting legal case if the US Forestry service tried to fire someone for simply talking about something THEY didn’t want them to talk about.
As a Federal employee you take an oath, as a Federal employee you are subject to certain requirements of the job. You also have a background check and are fingerprinted. Unless you commit an illegal act you can not go to jail but your job is subject to the will and direction of your supervisors. Violate direct written orders concerning your on duty actions or knowledge of work information you are ordered not to talk about and you can and will loose your job. Once you are no longer an employee or no longer want to go back to work as in seasonal you are free to say what you want.
I used ranks as in employees not rank as military, within the group.
Although in 33 years I was never asked to not speak or be Gaged as is happening with this legal actions. Those not involved with the fire can say what they want. Those involved are subject to some legal requirements by Federal Supervisors and Lawyers until the case is litigated. .
**
** MORE ‘THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS’ CROSSFADES
**
** THE FIRST FOUR VIDEO CLIPS SHOT BY ABC15 HELICOPTER ‘AIR15’
>> On October 19, 2014 at 6:19 pm, Marti Reed wrote…
>>
>> On June 30, 2013, ABC15, out of Phoenix published an extended version
>> of the video captured over the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s the Air15 airplane.
>> That’s a lot of the footage that was used by media in a lot of their
>> reports subsequently.
Yes. That ‘raw footage’ of theirs shot between 3:59 PM and 4:39 PM over the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, was uploaded to their own YouTube channel the night of the tragedy itself.
That original ABC15 Helicopter footage has always been right here…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
There are 31 different video clips in that Air15 raw footage.
I’ve been working on all 31 of these clips for a while now and I am currently able to identify the exact ground locations for almost ALL of them.
Putting exact GROUND LOCATIONS on all of these Air15 clips has been difficult, but as it turns out, there is actually a ‘pattern’ to them that helps to identify the actual ground locations.
That raw footage loop that ABC15 uploaded to YouTube seems to retain the ‘sequential’ order in which Air15 shot the clips in the time it spent over the Yarnell Fire.
They also followed the standard videographer practice of first getting ‘wide shots’, then ‘medium shots’, then ‘close shots’ so the news station can ‘pick and chose’ the clips better for airtime. That means that even in the ‘close shots’… it is possible to refer to the clips just PRIOR to them and see a ‘wider view’ in order to identify where the flames really are on the ground in the ‘closer’ shots.
In most of the clips… there also actually ARE some identifiable ground landmarks that also help to pinpoint the locations. Some of this took a lot of video enhancement… but there are usually enough ground features in all of the clips to be 99 percent sure what the ground location actually is.
Putting exact TIMES on all of these Air15 video clips remains problematic, but some of them are obvious and easily time-stamped.
NOTE: TV station ABC 15 probably still has all the actual ORIGINAL footage that was used to even create that ‘raw footage’ composite video they uploaded to Youtube, and that actual ORIGINAL footage probably does have exact timestamps embedded in all the digital clips.
Some video clips include identifiable VLAT drops. Some have fireline locations that match other external photographs exactly, etc.
The ‘sequential’ nature of the raw footage also helps to nail down some of the TIMES for these clips. Air15 was over Yarnell for a known span of time.
It asked for clearance from Thomas French in ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 33 over the VHF Air-To-Air channel at exactly 3:59 PM that day… and it then left the Yarnell area DURING the actual MAYDAY traffic coming from Granite Mountain at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).
So Air15 was only actually filming over the Yarnell area for 40 minutes from 3:59 PM top 4:39 PM.
All 31 clips in their ‘raw footage’ loop are ‘sequential’ and fit into that 40 minute time range with the first clips being right after they were given clearance and the later clips being very close to the time of deployment.
** Here is the ABC15 ‘Air 15′ News Chopper ARRIVING at the Yarnell fire
** and asking Thomas French in Bravo 33 ( Air Attack ) for clearance to
** enter the area and start filming…
From Panebaker 20130630_1628_EP video…
———————————————————————————-
MEDIA CHOPPER ‘AIR 15′ ASSOCIATED WITH
ABC 15 ( KNXV – PHOENIX ) ARRIVES ON THE FIRE
REGISTRATION NUMBER: N915HD
———————————————————————————-
NOTE: We can only hear French’s side of this
conversation with the ‘Air 15′ chopper requesting
permission/clearance to fly the fire.
———————————————————————————
N915HD
2002 EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2 Rotorcraft
(6 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: US HELICOPTERS INC., MARSHVILLE, NC
(Corporation)
Serial Number: 3583
———————————————————————————-
+11:30 ( 1559.28 / 3:59.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… and that’s niner one five hotel delta? Is that correct?
+11:35 ( 1559.33 / 3:59.33 PM )
(B33 – French): Will nine thousand five hundred work for ya?
+11:42 ( 1559.40 / 3:59.40 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, uh… five hotel delta… you’re cleared in niner thousand five hundred, two nine eight zero on the altimeter. You’re cleared… uh… to go wherever you need to at nine point five. If you need anything else you let us know, okay? The call sign is Bravo 33.
+11:59 ( 1559.57 / 3:59.57 PM )
(B33 – French): Was there another media ship out there?
+12:05 ( 1600.03 / 4:00.03 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, copy that… so that was… uh… news… you’re the News 15 callin’… okay… thanks a lot.
———————————————————————————————
END OF ABC15 ‘AIR 15′ CHOPPER CHECK-IN TO THE FIRE
———————————————————————————————
As soon as Air15 obtained this ‘clearance’ from Thomas French to enter the area… they started filming.
Air15 was coming from Phoenix and approaching the fire from the SOUTH, so the first set of clips in their raw footage are actually showing what the fire looked liked at 4:00 PM from the SOUTH of Yarnell and looking to the NORTH across that ‘middle bowl’.
In the very first video clip… they are actually shooting OVER the box canyon itself and showing the fireline as it was just 5 minutes after Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos. The fireline has now overtaken Brendan McDonough’s Lookout Mound and the EAST side of the fire ( on the RIGHT in the video clip ) is moving fast into the Harper Canyon / Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
The first FOUR Air15 video clips basically show the same thing Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos show, but from a wider perspective.
The fire was BURNING both SOUTH and EAST at this point ( at ground level ) but the SMOKE column was still ‘turning around’ and appears to be blowing mostly to the EAST as it was still in the process of ‘coming around’ 180 degrees and there were still different ‘winds’ in place at ground level versus above the fire itself.
In the very first Air15 video clip… the north side of the box canyon itself is seen in the lower left corner of the video before the footage ZOOMS in to the fireline over near Harper Canyon.
In the next FOUR replies to this message there will be LINKS to actual ‘through the looking glass’ CROSSFADES for the first FOUR Air15 video clips.
Each one will first show the short ABC15 Helicopter video clip ( sometimes repeating )… and then it will FREEZE on a frame from the video and do a slow CROSSFADE into the actual equivalent Google Earth ground location image.
The clips will then either ‘pan back’ or ‘pan around’ ( or both ) showing the exact ground location as it relates to the entire fire area.
I will be publishing as many of these ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades for ALL of these Air15 fire footage clips as time permits.
I am taking ‘extra time’ with some of the ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades for some of the clips near the end of the footage because I want to be absolutely sure I am getting the ground locations correct.
Some people might find the actual ground locations for some of the clips at the end of the Air15 helicopter footage to be a little disturbing given the fact that the Air15 helicopter was shooting the fire as it was on the ground at the exact moment Captain Jesse Steed was making his first MAYDAY call from the box canyon.
As far as whether this Air15 footage proves whether the SAIT got the fireline progressions and timeframes right or wrong… the answer is… sometimes YES…. sometimes NO.
The Air15 footage proves there really never was any kind of ‘straight’ west-to-east fireline moving through that middle bowl as depicted in the official SAIT fire progression charts.
There were ALWAYS a number of ‘fingers’… some burning SOUTH faster than others.
One of those ‘fingers’ is what reached the mouth of the box canyon first and then proceeded to ‘ignite’ the entire canyon.
The next FOUR replies are the first FOUR Air15 video clips with CROSSFADES…
ABC15-clip-01-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
It is exactly 3:59 PM and Air15 has just obtained clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33 ( Air Attack ) to enter the area and begin filming. Air15 approached Yarnell from Phoenix and this first clip shows the fire as it looked from the SOUTH and looking OVER the box canyon itself. The north side of the box canyon is visible at the start of the video clip in the lower left corner of the video frame.
The fireline matches what is also seen in all of Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos taken just 4-8 minutes earlier from out on the western ridge and looking back EAST, but the fire has progressed farther than in Christopher’s images.
ABC15-clip-02-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVjGY-hSlX8
After approaching the area from Phoenix and obtaining clearance, Air15 then proceeded NORTH at its assigned altitude of 9,500 feet and flew up along the WEST side of the area.
This second clip was taken looking NORTHEAST into that entire ‘bowl’ between the Weaver Mountain Ridge and Highway 89 off to the EAST.
Air15 had just flown past the ‘anchor point’ area where Granite Mountain was still assembled and about to start their hike to the SOUTH.
Granite Mountain is NOT visible in this video clip…
… but if this video clip had started just a little earlier OR they had ‘panned’ just a little farther to the SOUTH ( to their right in the video ), we probably would actually SEE Granite Mountain down there already assembling on the two-track for their hike towards the box canyon.
ABC15-clip-03-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9JzreI6-E
Air15 has proceeded just a little farther NORTH from Clip 02 and is now filming the same ground location as Clip 02 but the view is little more to the SOUTHEAST and back towards Yarnell.
Again… Granite Mountain is NOT actually visible in this video clip… but if the camera had been panned just a little farther SOUTH ( to the RIGHT in the video ) we might actually have been able to see them assembling on the two-track for their hike SOUTH to the box canyon at this point.
ABC15-clip-04-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj3ErMUl4c
Air15 has now flown BACK to the SOUTH side of the fire and is again filming the same fireline as seen in Clip 01 from the SOUTH.
The fire has advanced to BOTH the SOUTH and EAST in relation to what was seen just a few minutes earlier in their Clip 01.
This time… they have ZOOMED in to the fireline ( closer than they did in their Clip 01 ) as it encroaches on the west end of Harper Canyon and the Shrine Road Youth Camp area. This is still about 20 minutes before most of the firefighters working in both the Harper Canyon and Youth Camp areas would evacuate.
Nice work very easy to see what happened and how fast it occurred.
Thank you A LOT for doing this!
More to come. I’m just trying to be absolutely sure about the later clips because some people might find a few of them a little disturbing.
I also haven’t forgotten your suggestion about some ‘mapping’ on those retardant drop photos. Those are getting done as well. As it turns out… the 1633 SEAT drop was, in fact, much farther north along Hwy 89 and almost ‘outside of town’ rather than anywhere near the Glen Ilah area. It is now back to ‘highly unlikely’ that Eric Marsh could have seen this 1633 SEAT drop from anywhere out in the box canyon.
Thanks!
Did AZ Fire Dispatch or any other local dispatch record the fire radio traffic?
On the Sawtooth NF our dispatch recorded the fire and Dispatch traffic rather than hand record every thing we then put the tapes in the fire file with all the other fire info orders etc.
I do not know if that is still being done but some form of recording should be. The Fire Dispatch got set up so late on the Yarnell fire, they may not have been recording at the main radio dispatch 0n the 30th.
What we have herd has been from the cameras that were next to Radios, not actual taped recordings, some may exist though that have not been discussed or released. Primary tack 1 should have been recorded
Were the 911 tapes at the AZ Fire Dispatch or a 911 dispatch?
Makes a difference on what was recorded.
I came to the library to email and Sonny is reading investigative media. Bob Powers, in reading Cliff DuPuy, a 48 year old dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department who alerted many neighbors on his own about the fire and evacuation him as well as others including the volunteer firefighter Dr. Leroy Anderson…they have a top ten ? list and number ten is
10) WHY (after the evacuation of Yarnell) did Maggie tell others (while staying in Wickenburg) that she could not wait to get back home and TEAR UP her dispatch notes (eye witness to dispatch notes was Cliff Dupuy)….
If any of you can answer that as well as their other questions…I can send them here to read your answers.
1) Why was no one sent to the Microwave Tower Hill to act as a spotter and reporter?
Joy’s reply: I think I have seen enough time stamped photos from that area from the homeowners to know someone was at that point so it was not an empty sat area and their is documents out there and one for sure was from Jerry F.
I think our concern should lay as to EXACT time lightning strike was acknowledged because Laura C is the only one left with footage PROVEN that there was a yellow and white quad with tools BEFORE the actual reported time of fire and Cindy Dahl’s footage was time stamp was at 5:13-5:17 all the way into after 9pm and yet NO MENTION of this in any SAIR or any investigative reports. Also the exact PROVEN time that 320 acres was put into action to be state land restricted and for how long is it to be restricted? Why is there no mention that the restriction is lifted yet rumored as such that it is—That can be answered by Paxon I would assume or State officials.
2) Why didn’t Ryan Gardner take E-402 (4wheel drive) to search for the fire?
Joy’s reply: I do not know who he is or the answer.
3) Why wasn’t civilian resources tapped for help?
Joy’s reply: Only the ones who truly had the authority on this fire are the ones that can answer that.
4) Why was Chief Koile not on scene Friday?
Joy’s reply: ask him direct.
5) What was Bob Burkhardt doing? he knew about the dirt roads that led right to the fire.
Joy’s reply: ask him direct.
okay so as I am reading the questions and I said I would post them but as I write this out it seems this is not nation wide questions but question that should be answered directly by the ones you are asking the questions about—I am intrigued by the timeline of critical events as I have learned from all you homeowners and thank you for sharing but again I will say it again…share it with a VOICE publicly…I think some of you could change the whole course of how this fire is being assessed. The recent news so we do not seem like we are beginning to hide because others want privacy, YES, officials and loved one of GMHS have spoken to us in regards to new information/video and we feel we DO NOT want any information unless we can share about it so I reckon that is why we know so little on the new information and that is fine by us. I am just hoping the new information is real, raw and unedited is all…not some creation. Yes, we have not denied hikes and yet in the hikes we also are not ones to sign any confidentiality on we did not hike you because this all is about reaching clarity—simple as that. I will not be remembered for hiding information. We share it as we get it even if someone’s name is not publicized…it is important to us to let everyone know as it unfolds who comes to us in regards to the fire—some have stated they have not taken the hike with us for that exact reason but that’s fine with us-
I just wanted to point out to Bob Powers the names we heard about in regards to the dispatchers-
maybe they can help you. I will let them know you are writing about dispatchers—
On August 18, 2013, AODSH interviewed
Norval Tyler of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center.
Pretty much the very FIRST thing they asked him was if the AZF Dispatch
Center had the ability to RECORD radio traffic.
Norvall Tyler said YES.
He said that traffic in Yarnell for June 29 and the Initial Attack
WAS recorded at the ‘Dispatch Center’… but then he says that
the traffic for June 30 itself was NOT.
Something about the moment Roy Hall took over… they stopped
recording, or something?
I’m really not that sure what Tyler is saying here.
Notice also ( below ) that he seems to suggest that even though
they stopped recording SOME traffic on June 30… they were STILL
recording the AIR traffic ( Both VHF Air-To-Air and UHF Air-To-Ground? )
From ADOSH’s interview…
Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg – Lead ADOSH Investigator
A = Norval Tyler
———————————————————————-
43 Q2: Norval I-I – how is — how is the communication center working, currently?
44
45 A: How is it currently working? In what aspect?
46
47 Q2: Are all the features and functions that, uh, are intended to be functioning
48 functioning as they should?
49
50 A: They are, yes.
51
52 Q2: Um, have there been any, uh, communication problems in the last, uh, year
53 maybe that, that’s been problematic at the Deer Valley Center?
54
55 A: Nothing with the hardware that’s in place at Deer Valley.
56
57 Q2: Um, does, uh, d- do you have the ability to, uh, record audio?
58
59 A: We do.
60
61 Q2: And has that always – was that in place in June?
62
63 A: There are audio recording capabilities on our – not on all our consoles, but
64 they – there are on three-quarters of the consoles in there.
65
66 Q2: Um, was any of the audio associated with the Yarnell Hill fire recorded?
67
68 A: Prior to the 30th, yes. After when the team took it, no. Because they were
69 going direct. So they were on a direct communication line not shooting
70 through a repeater to us. So during initial attack phase prior to the 30th when
71 the team took over we were directing communication with the incident, the
72 incident commander. Once they transitioned at 1000 hours to the team they
73 go direct communication. And we’re not involved any more except for with
74 aircraft.
———————————————————————-
Something very very fishy here…………
The Air craft would have been on 1 desk with dispatcher and recording that traffic.
There should have been a dispatch assigned to the fire and monitoring the radio traffic, for Fire ordering of equipment supplies and for the weather forecasts.
including ordering additional air craft. that person would also take phone calls from the fire on orders which would have included the full type 2 and 1 teams.
Something dose not fit what normally happens here………
Something else that ‘doesn’t fit’ here is Tyler trying to say that a ‘repeater’ had anything to do with their ability to record.
He says the traffic from June 29 WAS being recorded… but June 30 was NOT because (quote) “they were on a direct line and not shooting through a repeater to us.”
Well… no one was “shooting through a repeater” on August 29, either… yet he admits they were still able to record traffic on the 29th.
As I understand it… the full ‘Type 1’ como hardware like repeaters and stuff didn’t even get fired up in Yarnell until July 1, the day AFTER the tragedy.
Also… the SAME FREQUENCIES ( TAC, A2G, etc. ) that were in use on August 29 in the Yarnell area were ALSO the ones being used on June 30.
It was a standard set of command/control frequencies assigned to the Arizona Forestry Division and they were NOT changed between June 29 and June 30.
So I don’t know what he means by “once they go direct we aren’t involved ( or recording anything? ) anymore”.
How/why is that any different from what was happening on the 29th when he admits they WERE ‘recording audio’.?
Astoundingly… that really is the ‘end of it’ in the ADOSH interview with Norval Tyler. There weren’t even any FOLLOWUP questions from ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg.
As soon as Norval Tyler said “And we’re not involved any more except for with aircraft”… Krotenberg just ‘moved on’ with the interview and never even asked him what that really MEANT.
Tyler also confirmed that the Arizona Dispatch Center does, in fact, rely on the latest/greatest AFF technolgy.
AFF is ‘Automatic Flight Following’.
That’s the stuff that lets them have big consoles that show the EXACT location of pretty much any aircraft they are dealing with.
Tyler did ‘qualify’ their use of AFF saying that you NEVER totally rely on it and the ONLY sure thing is direct communication with the aircraft themselves and he said their protocol requires those constant ‘direct’ updates from the aircraft via radio.
So that tends to suggest they ARE constantly ‘recording’ this radio traffic.
At the very least here… WHERE are the ‘recordings’ and/or transcripts of the recordings that he SAYS were being made on June 29 itself?
The only thing Direct could mean is they set up a seperiate center (office) to handle the Yarnell Fire on the Tac Channels and possibly by Phone.
Most agencies try to get the fire off normal channels so regular traffic can continue as the fire takes up a lot of radio time.
I did not think they had mush set up on the 30th as far as a true camp radios etc. but they did switch to Tac channels so maybe that is what is being referred to as direct.
The VHF or air channels would have continued recording which asks the questions was the Air traffic recorded with GM’s radio traffic on Air To Ground?
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 24, 2014 at 7:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The only thing Direct could mean is they set up a
>> seperiate center (office) to handle the Yarnell Fire
>> on the Tac Channels and possibly by Phone.
Sometime on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… around 6:11 AM… someone realized that Roy Hall had also forgotten to order a COMS officer for Yarnell to be part of the Type 2 short team. So that is when someone first ‘ordered’ a COMS officer for Yarnell.
His name was Clarence McMillan.
He was SUPER qualified for this
He was/is the Radio Communications Manager at AZ Department of Corrections
He wasn’t actually ‘ordered’ until Sunday morning around 6:11 AM ( according to official Resource Ordering records for Yarnell ).
His estimated time of arrival in Yarnell ( in the ROSS system itself ) was 11:30 AM Sunday but there is no evidence he actually got there at that time.
The photo linked to below was taken at 2:48 PM is the first evidence he was ever there at all.
Clarence Williams has (apparently) NEVER been interviewed by anyone is also (apparently) NEVER mentioned by ANYONE in any of either the SAIT or ADOSH interviews. Like he was never there ( but now we can see that he WAS there ).
The following is photographic evidence of him ( and his truck ) being there at the ICP circa 2:48 PM that day. He wasn’t doing much. For the next half-hour all he appeared to be doing was standing there by his vehicle and talking on his cellphone.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-IMG_20130630_144838_008.jpg
This photo was taken with a Network Connected ‘Motorola Droid 4′ so the timestamp of 14:48:37 ( 2:48.37 PM ) can be assumed to be accurate.
So if McMillan didn’t even get there until 2:00 PM or later… then he was already ‘obsolete’ by the time he arrived because of the decision to ‘ramp up’ to a Type 1 Incident Management Team.
Just like the confusion with trying to ‘ramp up’ from the SHORT team WHILE they were still trying to get organized on Sunday and fight the fire… people were already ‘obsolete’ by the time they even arrived in Yarnell ( Bea Day’s OPS people Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC’ Bucky’ Yowell, COMS person McMillan, etc. ).
So even if McMillan had all the right ‘hardware’ with him to set up some local repeaters… there is no evidence he ever attempted to do so at any time on Sunday.
Two days after the tragedy… there was a general AAR ( After Action Review ) held just amongst the OPS people that had been fighting the fire since the previous Sunday.
Even amongst THEMSELVES… the ‘fire commanders’ who were in Yarnell agreed that the lack of ‘repeaters’ being set up for Sunday contributed to the ‘problems’.
So that’s pretty much just one more piece of proof that there were NO ‘repeaters’ set up in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the AZCENTRAL article that first mentioned this AAR that took place in Yarnell…
—————————————-
Two days after the tragedy, during a review meeting, fire commanders acknowledged problems but also supported one another’s work, according to State Forestry Division records. They described the lack of a safety officer as a “significant void in the command staff.” One official also recommended the use of portable radio repeaters to eliminate communication problems, while another cited the transmission issues as a safety concern.
——————————————–
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Most agencies try to get the fire off normal channels
>> so regular traffic can continue as the fire takes up a
>> lot of radio time.
>>
>> I did not think they had mush set up on the 30th as far
>> as a true camp radios etc.
See above. Even though COMS Officer McMillan DID end up arriving in Yarnell early afternoon… there is no evidence he ever did anything at all once arriving. He was also never interviewed.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> but they did switch to Tac channels so maybe that is
>> what is being referred to as direct.
Maybe so.
It’s hard to know exactly what the Arizona Dispatch Center was really able to do, or not. The ADOSH investigators really didn’t pursue the questioning of Norval Tyler well enough to get the real scoop on that.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The VHF or air channels would have continued recording
>> which asks the questions was the Air traffic recorded
>> with GM’s radio traffic on Air To Ground?
Again… we don’t know the ranges or the capabilities of the equipment itself so it’s hard to ‘guess’ about it.
As I understand it… a BK radio is only good for about 3-5 miles.
As for ‘intercepting’ and/or ‘recording’ anything that is coming over a UHF Air-To-Ground channel back at the dispatch center in Phoenix… it’s also hard to say.
I with ADOSH had at least cleared up with Norval Tyler what Arizona Dispatch was ABLE to record, or not record.
Maybe there really ARE full recordings of ALL the Air-To-Ground radio traffic from Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Followup…
Here is a direct link to that AZCENTRAL article quoted above where the fire commanders from Yarnell itself even admitted amongst themselves that NOT having ‘repeaters’ set up in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was one of the things that contributed greatly to the ‘confusion’ and (perhaps) the fatal accident itself…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Fire Response Riddled With Issues
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131206yarnell-fire-response-report-issues.html
The link above to the photo of ‘COMS Unit Leader’ Clarence McMillan standing next to his truck in Yarnell appears to not work. This should work…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-IMG_20130630_150050_919.jpg
Interesting so I am back to direct as in telephone. Or a bunch of BS from
AZ Fire Dispatch.
Which if true means they could have held back a lot of taped information
at least it is highly questionable.
Okay… even that ‘alternate’ link above ( which is exactly what is in the Browser address bar when the Dropbox photo of Clarence McMillan is showing ) isn’t ‘cutting the cake’. You still end up just ‘stuck’ on the ‘Miscellaneous Photos’ folder and it doesn’t actually load the photo.
Trying again just one more time.
This is a direct link to the ORIGINAL ( full size ) photo in the online Dropbox that shows CUL ( COMS Unit Leader ) Clarence McMillan just standing by his truck ( in the left foreground ) with a black ball cap and a bottle of water in his hand circa 2:48 PM on June 30, 2013…
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/VdRcthET8a3I0uMP5kGpxJud8iG495NGwYa0pkj1c4hCcnmN9F2rAt9Tv3taDdbA
Eye Witness Cliff DuPuy, 48yo dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department has many troubling questions to that weekend and one public question was HOW COME (after the evacuation of Yarnell) did Maggie Edmands (YFD dispatcher) tell others (while staying in Wickenburg) that she could not wait to get back to Yarnell to tear up her dispatch notes who Cliff eye-witnessed those notes. HOW COME the SAIR never mention that in their report. I have posted here a 1/2 dozen times as I learned stuff and it always said IN MODERATION to never seeing it posted and I have alot going on right now to rewrite it all but there is something odd going on…my gut is usually right…and I answered any questions and Sonny too but never saw it posted here…but try again…If you have a question just re-ask it so I do not have to skim again…just very short on pc time. All I can say to the SAIR folks THE FUTURE never gives up nor do I…I will keep hiking folks…and now we will follow county laws but we do have 2 rv setups on the property and by law you cannot rent out the rv hookup areas but since we have tiny cabin ANY overflow of guests can remain there and the max is 90 calendar days for the guests so if there is anyone still heading to Yarnell to investigate it we can see if we have the time/dates open for you to roll on in…you can even tent it there…email for more on that topic…Now, as for our time for hikes just know we are pretty tight for the month of November. John MacLean is due out in a few days and we have the mayor soon and his folks…we have the tv show and 4 movie producers and the person who talks to the dead and maybe the lawyers- Knapp said soon. So just pop in and ask to see when/if we can hike with you. I know some locally want to hike soon. Again, friendly reminder that alot of the area you hike is on state land so make sure to have your state land permit on you. The chances anyone is going to stop you and ask for it—well in 10 years twice for me and that is with me out there ALOT…almost all the time. Everyone Happy Halloween! Be off the rest of the week and check back next Sunday…
Thanks to JOY it is confirmed that the Head Cam Video is or has been shown in Prescott to Family and others hopefully they will be talking about it as most things tend to get out. The News media should be all over this so we are still in a holding pattern. But we have more conformation.
Yes, we met and spoke to certain influential people at the fence event that did not want their names mentioned that said they had new information that provided the possibility of settlement discussions. Of course if this happens we will likely never get all the evidence that would of been and should come out. You can bet the state and other parties involved will require a silence order if they settle. I wonder if it is like a local man Buford says that certain officials are allowing these fires to gain momentum because there is not much money being made putting them out with 2-3 people early on vs calling in the big money which runs into millions.
Thanks WTKTT and Bob Powers for the info/hedzup/convo regarding the HelmetCam video.
I agree with WTKTT that it would make sense for Aaron Hulburd to have turned his helmetcam on for the search. We still don’t know what kind of helmetcam he was using, or whether it was capable of really-really low-light capture.
I’ve been following the events in Ferguson/SaintLouis pretty closely. There’s quite a bit of video-streaming via iphones that you can switch to do that kind of night-video that we see on the photos from the Boulder Springs Ranch security camera (and I agree totally that they most likely had more than one security camera on and running). I don’t know if Aaron’s helmetcam was capable of doing that.
But even if it wasn’t, if I were Aaron, I still would have switched my helmetcam on during the search, since there is software that is capable of fixing a lot of exposure problems (including Lightroom, which I use to do just that) and Photoshop.
And speaking of “missing” “evidence.”
I spent parts of the past few days scouring videos on the internet, trying to find any other versions of that “showing the click-on-button video of the ‘last minutes radio calls’ video” that WildfireDotCom posted to their website. I didn’t find any, so it seems plausible that WildfireDotCom took that video (which a LOT of other media outlets were publishing in various ways) and screencaptured it the way (for speed) WTKTT is saying.
As I was scouring videos I found some other interesting things. I was looking for stuff that was being “published” that had footage I hadn’t seen before.
I found two things that were troublesome and one thing that was interesting.
I’ll post them, with their links below.
Under the “troublesome” category:
On August 29, AZCentral published a report, with audio footage, called “Yarnell Hill Fire 911 calls released by authorities” by Joe Dana.
“Emergency calls made by homeowners in the Yarnell area showed concern, confusion and compassion as the Yarnell Hill Fire broke fire lines June 30 and headed for the small community, according to recordings released this week by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.”
I haven’t seen anywhere, in any public releases, including that which we have access to via this site, that footage, which I would really like to listen to, all things considered.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130828yarnell-hill-fire-911-calls-released.html
Under the “interesting” category:
On June 30, 2013, ABC15, out of Phoenix published an extended version of the video captured over the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s the Air15 airplane. That’s a lot of the footage that was used by media in a lot of their reports subsequently.
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/other/yarnell-hill-fire-flames-consume-wilderness-near-arizona-town-video
There are 31 different video clips in that Air15 raw footage. I’ve been able to identify the exact ground locations for more than half of them.
More about all that coming soon.
Followup… Air15 came from Phoenix and approached Yarnell from the SOUTH that afternoon. They started filming as soon as they obtained clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33, so those first few video clips are actually looking at the fire line from the SOUTH and were shot looking OVER the box canyon itself. The timeframe matches the 3:50 PM Mackenzie photos.
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 19, 2014 at 6:01 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Under the “troublesome” category:
>>
>> On August 29, AZCentral published a report, with audio
>> footage, called “Yarnell Hill Fire 911 calls released by
>> authorities” by Joe Dana.
>>
>> I haven’t seen anywhere, in any public releases, including
>> that which we have access to via this site, that footage,
>> which I would really like to listen to, all things considered.
The only actual 911 recordings I think anyone has ever really heard are the ones that are actually IN the video that accompanies the same AZCENTRAL online report that you have linked to above…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130828yarnell-hill-fire-911-calls-released.html
They have an audio recording of pretty much everything mentioned in the article itself… but it’s a small sampling and they were only picking the ones that THEY throught were ‘interesting’.
In the video that accompanies that article there’s also an interesting VIDEO clip at +1:32. At first glance… it APPEARS to actually be a shot of the Blue Ridge Chase Truck towing the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger and going around a security checkpoint.
It *might* be… but it’s pretty hard to tell ( no license plate is readable ).
It is, in fact, an aquamarine green/blue pickup the same color as Blue Ridge vehicles towing a trailer and a Polaris Ranger… but it’s hard to verify if it is the exact same Polaris Ranger Blue Ridge owned as shown in other photos like that one in BR Hotshot Desoto’s folder.
If that really is the BR Chase truck plus Polaris Ranger… I would imagine the TIME on that video clip had to be in the morning when they were moving from the ICP in Model Creek down to their next staging area at the Yarnell Fire Station.
10 seconds later in the same video linked to above ( at +1:42 ) there is another aquamarine ‘support’ truck seen passing the same checkpoint.
It is ALMOST identical to the other Blue Ridge support truck. Same make, model, color and configuration right down to the black metal ‘catch’ cages running along the side storage areas… but it’s not the same YEAR as the Blue Ridge support truck. This one has ’rounded’ back wheel flanges whereas the Blue Ridge support truck as seen in Papich image IMG_3949 has more ‘square top’ back wheel flanges.
Not sure which truck this one actually is or exactly what time it is.
Still looks like in the morning based on the ‘light’ in the video clip.
And on July 11, 2013, AZCentral published a report, with audio footage, called “Frantic moments of deadly Yarnell fire captured on radio logs” by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez.
“Radio-transmission logs released Thursday show that wildfire officials mobilized to treat potential survivors of a June 30 burn-over that took the lives of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots caught in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
A dispatcher for the Arizona State Forestry Division called Arizona Department of Public Safety dispatchers just before 5 p.m. the day the firefighters died, asking the police agency to put a medevac helicopter on standby for the fire. The forestry dispatcher did not say why, and a DPS dispatcher noted that one of the agency’s choppers already was acting as air support for the fire.”
Again, I have never seen those logs/tapes anywhere.
Has anybody else heard/seen them (especially the tapes)?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130711arizona-firefighters-killed-fire-radio-logs.html
These MIGHT be the transcripts of the Arizona DPS radio logs released July 11, 2013 that are referred to in the article up above…
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kpho/KPHO%20NEWS/HOTSHOT%20CREW%20DPS%20reports.pdf
They are also the ones that show that at 6:48 AM the morning after the tragedy… there were already several media choppers hovering over the deployment site and the DPS offices were freaking out. There is a LOT of radio traffic there reporting this to their Dispatch and the officers were asking for an IMMEDIATE ‘higher altitude’ for the no fly zone because they were afraid the media were getting shots of what was happening on the ground.
The ARTICLE that actually contains the LINK to the DPS Radio Logs posted above is the following…
CBS5 – KPHO – Yarnell Hill Fire
Planes Called Just Before Fire Deaths
http://www.kpho.com/story/22829442/yarnell-hill-fire-planes-called-just-before-fire-deaths
Marti… just a quick reply regarding something you said up above.
It is also perfectly possible the Wildfire Today people felt the need to do that ‘screen capture’ move because of SIZE considerations.
If whatever they were given by Arizona Forestry was actually in the AVI movie format… then it would have been HUGE, size-wise, and too big for a YouTube upload.
So maybe that screen capture move was just someone’s idea of a quick way to get that clip reduced to a size/speed compatible with a YouTube.
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 19, 2014 at 5:51 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I agree with WTKTT that it would make sense for Aaron Hulburd to
>> have turned his helmetcam on for the search.
His ‘fulltime’ job was/is a ‘Fuels Specialist for Prescott National Forest’.
Forget the fact that he was on an important ‘rescue mission’ that anyone with a
Helmet-Cam on might feel the need to ‘document’.
I could easily believe he would still have probably wanted to capture some footage of what was happening in the area because of his actual ‘job title’ and career interest.
It’s not every day you ‘break through a fireline’ like he and Frisby and Brown and Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell did that day and ascend a high ridge to see a historic, active fire from that perspective.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> We still don’t know what kind of helmetcam he was using, or whether it was capable
>> of really-really low-light capture.
That’s true…
But it didn’t even start to get dark until well into the ‘search mission’ and sometime AFTER the deployment site was found, taped, and ‘walked’ by any number of people… Aaron Hulburd included.
Even that DPS ‘Captain’ who hitched a ride on Ranger 58’s return trip after refueling was able to take BOTH photographs AND video of the deployment site with a simple iPhone from a short hovering distance above the deployment site before low light became any kind of issue.
No one has ever seen those photos or THAT video, either.
Followup to the post directly above…
It actually didn’t start to get dark until DPS medic Eric Tarr, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, IWI Commander Todd Abel and two other ‘Incident within an Incident’ commanders left the Boulder Springs Ranch where they had all met up and walked back WEST ( all together ) to the deployment site.
Eric Tarr puts the TIME of this ‘beginning to get dark’ at 1929 ( 7:29 PM )
From Eric Tarr’s signed deposition…
—————————————–
As darkness was approaching I hiked back to the scene with the
original Firefighters and the 3 Command Firefighters. This was at
approximately 1929 hours. I took marking tape from them
and finished taping off the south half of the scene. The Command
Officer ( Todd Abel? ) asked me to confirm my count of 19 since
his roster was only showing 18 names. I went back INTO the scene
that I had (already) taped off and confirmed my count of 19 deceased
Firefighters and 19 deployed shelters. The 3 Command Officers ( Todd
Abel and two others ) followed me in and also confirmed the count of 19.
—————————————–
The very next paragraph of DPS Medic Eric Tarr’s signed
deposition then says this…
—————————————–
WHILE I was taping off the south side of the scene, Ranger 58 arrived
back over the scene and advised me they had a Yavapai County Sheriff
Deputy on board and were taking aerial photographs of the scene. I
relayed this information to the Command Officers ( Todd Able
plus two others ).
—————————————–
So even after hiking BACK to the deployment site and then starting to ‘tape off the south side of the scene’… there was still enough daylight for that YCSO Deputy to be taking ‘aerial photos/videos’ of the scene.
So during all this time ( and at any moment leading up to this time ) Aaron Hulburd would have been able to get some footage with his Helmet Camera as well… if he had wanted and/or attempted to do so.
Just a followup to the information above…
BOTH of the other crew members of DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 also confirm, in their signed depositions, that a Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department CAPTAIN was onboard Ranger 58 when it returned to the deployment site after refueling and his ‘purpose’ was to shoot pictures of the deployment site BEFORE sunset and it became too dark to film.
It is actually pilot Clifford Brunsting who confirms that this YCSO ‘Captain’ used TWO different cell/smartphones and he took BOTH pictures and VIDEO of the deployment site from Ranger 58.
From DPS Officer Charles Main’s deposition…
————————————————
Ranger returned to the helibase, performed a “hot” refuel at 1818 hours and returned to the scene. Upon arrival, Officer/Paramedic Tarr confirmed there were 19 fatalities on the scene at approximately 1828 hours. There was another wildland firefighter with him. The crew decided to leave Officer/Paramedic Tarr on scene, to maintain security, until command could arrange more support personnel to secure the area for the night. Ranger flew back to the heli-base to drop me off and pick up the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Captain, to get a few quick pictures of the area
——————————————————–
So Charles Main says (specifically) it was a YCSO ‘Captain’ that was going to take the pictures ( and VIDEO ) of the deployment site before it got too dark.
From (pilot) Clifford Brunsting’s signed deposition…
————————————————————-
I then radioed to Air Attack over the air-to-air frequency that we had 19 down at the scene. Air Attack (Brave 3) inquired “fatalities?” and I replied “affirmative”. Officer Tarr remained at the scene to provide security until someone else could take over control. I returned to the heli-base to refuel and then proceeded to the Yavapai Sheriff’s Command vehicle to brief them.
After de-briefing them I flew a Captain from Yavapai County to the scene to take aerial photographs of the scene while we still had some light before sunset. This flight lasted from 1930 to 1940 hours. The Captain used two cell phone cameras to take still and video pictures of the scene. After completion of the photos I returned to the heli-base to await the return of Officer Tarr.
—————————————————————-
NOTE the ADDITIONAL DETAIL provided by pilot Brunsting.
He ( like Charles Main ) specifies it was a YCSO ‘Captain’ that flew onboard to take pictures of the site… but pilot Burnsting gets even MORE specific and says that this YCSO ‘Captain’ used TWO cell/smartphones to take BOTH pictures AND VIDEO.
So there was certainly enough LIGHT left for this YCSO Captain to be taking those initial photos and VIDEO of the deployment site.
Aaron Hulburd was DOWN THERE at the deployment site by this time.
Maybe one day we will find out whether or not Aaron Hulburd ALSO had his ‘Helmet-Camera’ on at any time during this ‘ground rescue mission’… or at any time he was actually THERE at the deployment site.
Would surprise me if any of those pictures get released .
due to Family concerns.
Actual (raw) deployment site pictures… yes… and rightly so.
But anything ELSE, such as footage of the ground rescue mission ‘breaking through’ in the Youth Camp area and then the resulting search ( and any radio traffic captured or even conversation amongst the participants ) should be released.
IF it exists, that is.
I still just find it ‘not credible’ that the ONLY time Aaron Hulburd used his Helmet Camera that day was just those 7 minutes and 49 seconds that were released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013.
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.
This means it is being released to some people. I wonder if the news media is trying to get a copy?
WTKTT–
One of your statements a few days ago I wanted to go back to.
The Prescott Gang—–
The 3 Division Supervisors were Prescott NF Employees including Aaron Hulburd.
I may have misunderstood you as them being Prescott City Employees.
The Forest Service may have had to give up the full Head cam Video to the State, as critical evidence in the States Case. Just a thought It has taken a while for ADOSH to get it and start review. I think the people that have herd it are saying there is some critical evidence on it that was not originally released. Very Interesting Hope it surfaces soon.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2014 at 6:25 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT– One of your statements a few days ago I wanted to go
>> back to. The Prescott Gang—–
>> The 3 Division Supervisors were Prescott NF Employees including
>> Aaron Hulburd. I may have misunderstood you as them being
>> Prescott City Employees.
I might have slipped on the keyboard somewhere below and referred to them as Prescott City Employees… but if I did… that was just a typo.
There has never been any doubt that these Bea Day team ‘off the radar’ ‘Prescott Gang’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were/are all ‘Prescott National FOREST’ employees.
Jason Clawson
As early as April 16, 2012… Jason Clawson is showing up in mainstream
media articles with the title ‘West Zone Assistant Fire Management Officer
for Prescott National Forest”.
In May of this year… the ‘assistant’ title is no longer appearing and he
appeared in a Prescott Daily Courier article on May 14, 2014, listed
only as ‘Fire Management Officer of the Prescott National Forest’.
Aaron Hulburd
Listed in various online articles since at least 2010 ( and on to the present )
as a ‘Fuels Specialist for Prescott National Forest’.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
In one 2010 article that names Hulburd as a ‘Fuels Specialist’ for
Prescott National Forest… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is also quoted in the
same article as being Hulburd’s assistant on a fuels abatement
program and simply a ‘Firefighter for Prescott National Forest’.
Other MSM articles give the following title to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell…
‘Fuels Management Specialist for the US Forest Service,
prescribed and wildfire in the Prescott and Coconino National Forests’.
In the following Prescott Daily Courier article dated April 14, 2012, there
is a PHOTO of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell doing a ‘Sandbox’ presentation for Prescott
National Forest Engine 930 and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is listed ( in 2012 )
as “Prescott National Forest Crew 2 Hotshot KC Yowell”.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=105425
All of the CONTACT information online for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd,
and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are addresses and phone numbers that belong
to ‘Prescott National Forest’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Forest Service may have had to give up the full Head cam
>> Video to the State, as critical evidence in the States Case. Just a
>> thought It has taken a while for ADOSH to get it and start review.
Since there is no doubt that Aaron Hulburd’s ‘full time’ job was with the Prescott National Forest’… then if he went through ‘channels’ when he was trying to get his Helmet Camera video known to investigators then YES… it is possible that his ‘Helmet Cam’ video has ALWAYS been being ‘controlled’ by the US Forestry Service itself.
If Hulburd (first) gave it straight to the Arizona Forestry SAIT people ( the entire thing or maybe even just the part we have seen already ) then this is actually rather ‘problematic’ for Arizona Forestry.
Simple Arizona ‘Open Records’ requests to Arizona Forestry should still have produced EVERYTHING that was in their possession from Aaron Hulburd.
We still have NO IDEA what the ‘real story’ is with Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam.
WHO did he give it to first?
How MUCH of it did he reveal at that time?
Did Hulburd give ( someone? ) everything he had and we have been watching the rest of it be ‘withheld’ by Arizona Forestry for all this time… or was the US Forestry Service already ‘in control’ of that evidence and only coughing up ‘pieces’ of it even to Arizona Forestry.
The complete ‘story’ of how this Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ actually was revealed to investigators… and WHEN that happened… still needs to be told.
The ‘tricky’ part for Arizona Forestry is if they somehow try to DENY that they had this ‘Helmet Cam’ early on… before they even came up with their ‘no one communicated with Granite Mountain’ blackout story they tried to get us to believe.
There is already proof that as early as August 22, 2013, ADOSH and the
Wildland Fire Associates contractors working for them were already fully aware
of at least the 7 minute and 49 second ‘excerpt’ from Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video.
That proof comes in the following ‘exchange’ from Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview
which took place on August 22, 2013.
From page 54 ( of 73 pages ) of Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview transcript…
Q1 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = Central Yavapai County Fire Captain Todd Abel ( Field OPS1 at Yarnell )
—————————-
2374 Q1: Okay. So when you’re hearing the, my escape route has been cut off, can you
2375 talk about that?
2376
2377 A: Mm-hm.
2378
2379 Q1: Somebody recorded that.
2380
2381 A: Yep.
—————————–
So right there.. Dave Larsen is referring directly to the Aaron Hulbured ‘Helmet Cam’ recording and the part where Eric Marsh finally jumps in and tells John Burfiend in Bravo 33 that their ‘escape route has been cut off’.
Even on August 22, 2013… Todd Abel was (apparently) already fully aware
that this ‘Helmet Cam’ recording existed. He was NOT surprised at all when
Dave Larsen told him that moment ‘had been recorded’.
Abel ALREADY knew that.
It is still NOT KNOWN how Todd Abel himself was already aware of Aaron Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Cam’ and the radio traffic it had recorded.
It is possible Todd Abel learned of the ‘Helmet Cam’ weeks before this ADOSH
interview when he was interviewed by Arizona Forestry and the SAIT.
So if ADOSH was fully aware of this ‘Helmet Cam’ as early as August 22, 2013… then it’s going to be hard for Arizona Forestry or the SAIT to claim they did NOT know about it prior to publishing their SAIR report.
If there really is MUCH more footage in that video that goes back and covers the entire ( supposed ) ‘blackout’ period they claimed in their SAIR… is AZF going to somehow claim that the ONLY part of the Helmet Cam they, themsevles, were ever aware of was that same 7 minute and 49 seconds ‘cut’ that ended up released ( by THEM ) on December 13, 2013?
There’s a big STORY here that still remains to be told.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I think the people that have herd it are saying there is some
>> critical evidence on it that was not originally released.
>> Very Interesting Hope it surfaces soon.
Yep. Depending on how many extra ‘minutes’ there are… it will be covering some very crtical timeframes where we are still missing the actual CALL SIGNS of people that we KNOW were ‘communicating directly with Granite Mountain’.
If it covers the 4:27 timeframe… we will probably finally hear the exact CALL SIGN of WHO was ( apparently ) urging Marsh and GM to “Hurry to town”.
If it covers the 4:16 timeframe… we will probably finally CLEARLY hear the CALL SIGN of whoever that was calling GM directly and asking them what their STATUS was at that critical time. We might also hear the critical A2G traffic preceding that where Bravo 33 seemed to be saying it was ‘not credible’ to them that GM could be reporting themselves as ‘comfortable’ and Bravo 33 asked someone on the ground to CALL them and ask them if DIVSA was actually WITH them ( which someone actually DID just 20 seconds after that request ).
If it covers anything farther back than 4:16… we might learn even more.
Also… see above.
If there really IS extra footage with some pretty critical radio como captures on it… how is Arizona Forestry going to DENY that they were fully aware of whatever else that footage contains prior to publishing their own report?
The 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was released on December 13, 2013 was (supposedly) released by Arizona Forestry itself.
If it turns out there is MUCH MORE to that video… is AZF still going to claim they ONLY had the 7 minute and 49 second ‘cut’ that they, themselves, ended up releasing to SAIT FOIA/FOIL requests?
…or are they going to admit that they always DID have the ‘complete’ Aaron Hulburd footage and they DECIDED to ‘butcher it’ and ONLY release what they WANTED to in response to legal ‘Arizona Open Records’ and FOIA / FOIL requests?
Behavior like that actually carries its own ‘penalties’.
WTKTT–
Based on what I have herd this entire Video was given to the SAIR investigation.
This is where we herd way back and discussed that several overhead were upset that a lot of information was not released in the Investigation report.
I do believe that while Hulburd had the video he retained custody of the original and released a copy the entire roughly 50 Min. which covers almost an hour of prior radio traffic prior to deployment.
This along with interviews that were not published of the 3 Prescott NF employees.
As I said earlier this Video is being viewed or recently has been By families of GM and Prescott City Personnel. The info I received says that several family members were upset with the information in the Video.
No one had specifics on what the Family members were upset about.
Maybe Joy has picked up on something here from Prescott or Yarnell.
I expect the News media will be all over this soon. To many people are now evolved to keep it quiet.
I am thinking that the Video in full will be released as soon as all the affected parties have reviewed it. At leased that’s the rumor with in the FS in Arizona.
Refer again below to what RTS said about the Fire Fighters he spoke with that were on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 19, 2014 at 8:00 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Based on what I have herd this entire Video was
>> given to the SAIR investigation.
Well, then… if that is true… then based on what it contains that could be really problematic for Arizona Forestry, Jim Karels, Mike Dudley, and all the other ‘decision makers’ on the SAIT team.
The mainstream media ( and the world at large ) still thinks those men died because there were ‘radio problems’ and that no one knew where they were or had ANY idea they were making such a dangerous ‘move’..
That is what Arizona Forestry, Jim Karels and Mike Dudley decided the official ‘investigation’ was going to conclude and what they WANTED the mainstream media to report.
Indeed… most people who didn’t even bother to read the SAIR still just think ‘the big bad fire’ just ‘came and got them’ and it was absolutely unavoidable and inescapable.
If that complete Helmet-Cam video is really as long as is being reported… then what I think it actually captures in those timeframes would probably prove that the entire SAIT investigation wasn’t just inaccurate… but a complete and total FRAUD.
To this day… no one knows how much money was actually spent on that ‘SAIT’ thing ( it might be in the millions of dollars )… but if proof comes out that it did, in fact, just result in a completely FRAUDULENT report… I imagine the Arizona State Finance Division and/or the Arizona Attorney General’s office is going to do some followup there on behalf of the Arizona taxpayers who footed the entire bill for THAT fiasco.
As I said in a previous post… I don’t think Arizona Forestry could ever get away with simply claiming the ONLY part of that video that even THEY ever had was that 7 minute and 49 second piece that they released in response to Arizona Open Records request on December 13, 2013.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This is where we herd way back and discussed that several
>> overhead were upset that a lot of information was not
>> released in the Investigation report.
I am also now wondering if this (supposed) additional Helmet-Cam footage is actually the same ‘video’ that was also discussed recently by that person who called you about the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
I would still imagine that that ‘argument’. ( IF it actually took place and IF it was captured in video/audio ) must have taken place over the GM intra-crew frequency… but as I also said before… it is still perfectly possible that Prescott National Forest Bea Day team member Aaron Hulburd might have actually HAD the Granite Mountain intra-crew programmed in to his radio and he WAS scanning that channel the whole time he and Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were in the Yarnell area and whenever he had his ‘Helmet Camera’ running.
If he didn’t… then we must still be talking about some OTHER mysterious piece of video/audio that had to have been captured by someone who did have access to that channel such as Brendan McDonough himself and/or ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving all FOUR of those Granite Mountain vehicles later that afternoon.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I do believe that while Hulburd had the video he retained
>> custody of the original and released a copy the entire
>> roughly 50 Min. which covers almost an hour of prior
>> radio traffic prior to deployment.
The EXIF data that is in that 7 minute and 49 second ‘piece’ that was released by Arizona Forestry does, in fact, indicate that the ‘Handbrake’ video encoder/decoder was used in the creation of that ‘piece’.
The ‘Handbrake’ software is a popular ‘Open Source’ set of video tools famous for extracting video from DVDs.
So perhaps even that is proof’ that Arizona Forestry only got a DVD ‘copy’ of the original footage from Hulburd and YES… he still has ALL of the original video he took that day regardless of what AZF has.
I’m sure that is the case.
If nothing else… then Hulburd still has the original camera and it all might still be sitting on that device as well.
In other words… I certainly don’t think Hulburd ever gave his CAMERA to anyone. Whatever anyone got… it was just a ‘copy’ of what Aaron Hulburd still retains ownership of.
I also still wonder if Hulburd ALSO turned his Helmet Camera on at ANY time during his participation in the actual ground rescue mission.
If I had one on MY head during that ‘rescue mission’… I certainly would have felt the need to RECORD what was happening during such a critical time.
Even if Hulburd WAS making ‘Helmet-Camera’ recordings during that ground rescue mission he was participating in… I wonder if even HE has ever given any of that to ANYONE.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This along with interviews that were not published of
>> the 3 Prescott NF employees.
I could always see Arizona Forestry’s reasoning ( without agreeing with it ) in making it as difficult as possible for anyone ( ADOSH included ) to discern from their own ‘reports’ and ‘evidence’ that these 3 off-the-radar hires were even THERE in Yarnell that day… much less the fact that they were KEY WITNESSES and KEY PARTICIPANTS in the mission that actually arrived at the deployment site….
….but I’ve always been unable to believe that Arizona Forestry itself would not at least have TALKED to all three of these men.
There is no question now that Arizona Forestry has always been ‘picking and choosing’ what to release in response to legal Arizona Open Records requests. Withholding interview notes or transcripts from THESE 3 men would be just ‘more’ of that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> As I said earlier this Video is being viewed or recently
>> has been By families of GM and Prescott City Personnel.
>> The info I received says that several family members
>> were upset with the information in the Video.
This is really starting to sound like that whole ‘frap’ over the photo of the 19 flag-draped coffins that popped up on Facebook the very day the bodies were removed from the canyon.
The story on THAT was that it, too, was supposedly something that was ONLY being distributed to ‘family members’… but someone let the cat got out of the bag and one of them posted the photo to Facebook.
A few days later, after that photo had gone worldwide, Arizona Central did a full article on that photo itself and the ‘frap’ it has caused and how some family members were ‘upset’ that anyone but them would be able to ‘see’ this photo.
That article is still HERE…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130704yarnell-fire-photo-fallen-firefighters-controversy.html
It has always been believed that it was Darrell Willis himself who actually TOOK that photo out at the deployment site the moment they finished putting all the flags over all the body bags.
Willis has never actually denied it… but he DID ‘disavow’ all responsibility for the photo showing up on Facebook.
AZREPUBLIC asked Willis directly about his involvement with this photo and if you notice his response… he ONLY denies any involvement with the photo going ‘public’ and never says he didn’t take it and was then the one distributing it to ‘family members’ under some kind of ‘agreement’ that he then mentions to AZREPUBLIC…
From the article…
————————————–
Contacted by The Republic late Thursday, Willis said he had no connection to the page and said he did not post the photo or authorize its posting.
“This is totally unauthorized. It’s totally against anything we committed to,” Willis said
He confirmed the authenticity of the photo, but said he was upset that someone would attach his name to a page with the image.
——————————————–
So it still does look like Darrell Willis was the one that TOOK that photo and then decided ( himself? ) to start ‘distributing it’ to ‘family members’ but only under some kind of ‘commitment’ that it wasn’t supposed to ever be seen by anyone else. His only ‘complaint’ to AZREPUBLIC was that some family member had posted it to Facebook and that his NAME would somehow be ‘attached to that page’.
I’m not really sure why ADOSH would now be doing pretty much the same thing Willis did with that ‘flag photo’.
Perhaps it has something to do with the suits that have been filed by the family members. Dunno.
Of COURSE ‘some family members’ are going to be ‘upset’ about NEW information coming out about the events of June 30, 2013.
SOME family members have ALWAYS been against ANY information whatsoever coming to light about the events of that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> No one had specifics on what the Family members were
>> upset about.
See above. SOME family members have NEVER really wanted ANY information about what really happened that day to ever see the light of day. They would be ‘upset’ about ANYTHING else ‘coming out’… not to mention another 40-50 minutes of radio captures.
I also imagine the opposite is true and I hope that somehow gets ‘reported’ as well.
I will bet any number of ‘family members’ feel very strongly that ANY new evidence about what happened that day SHOULD be released.
I hope those voices are given as much ( if not MORE ) weight than what is coming from others who might be ‘upset’ about any ‘new evidence’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Maybe Joy has picked up on something here from
>> Prescott or Yarnell. I expect the News media will be all
>> over this soon.
Probably so.
Nothing pisses the mainstream media itself off more than to discover that even THEY have been ‘bullshitted’ and/or not given the right information from (supposed) ‘official’ sources.
They are usually ‘all over that’ when it happens.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Too many people are now evolved to keep it quiet.
>> I am thinking that the Video in full will be released as
>> soon as all the affected parties have reviewed it.
>> At leased that’s the rumor with in the FS in Arizona.
Something tells me the already scheduled November 17 ‘ADOSH findings challenge review’ might play into the timing here.
ADOSH might be waiting until AFTER this ‘review’ of Arizona Forestry’s challenge of their own findings before they actually ‘release’ any new evidence they might have.
Then again… maybe not.
Maybe they want to do a classic ‘getting out in front of the story’ move and release what NEW evidence they have BEFORE this actual ‘review’ of their findings even takes place.
It’s hard to say what ‘strategy’ even the ADOSH lawyers might think is best here. We will have to wait and see.
I think you may have hit on a point I have been thinking about.
BR may just have the same or part of the same info that is on the Helmet cam which in turn will confirm their written statements.
This could also coincide with Dudley’s Argument information heard on the radio that also is part of what I was told awhile back.
Maybe we will get a bunch of puzzle pieces very soon.
Well… if it DOES turn out that there is far more Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Cam footage than was previously (generally) known and that it DID actually capture some/all of this (supposed) argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed…
…then that would pretty much make mincemeat of SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s public statement that they ‘could not validate the allegations of an argument between Marsh and Steed’.
If the SAIT had ALL of Hulburd’s footage since day one… and it DID record some/all of that ‘argument’….
…then Mike Dudley is a liar.
Or he wanted to say more but just left us hanging?
Who knows with the way this whole thing has twisted and turned and what is yet to revel its self.
Lies, stories or half truths to lead the story where the investigation wanted it .
Maybe just to much camera and video out there to accomplish what they were charged with. The story has a life of its own that will not be held back.
to answer you- Yes we did hear it was being reviewed but no further information was provided and yes there is alot of information that is being reviewed but nothing shared to the hikers except some want to hike with us that are reviewing it.
If you ask me—it sounds squirrely like possibly in the near future there may be a battle of state vs county vs city…vs government….on properly assessing who is going to settle this towards the homeowners and loved ones of the GMHS suing because the one thing we did hear it appears it will never make it to court—“settlement” talk—
I think even if they settle—it will not stop me in my seeking clarity—every time Sonny hikes the ridge he weeps and grievously shakes his head saying “of 19 men dead…very little said…the state doesn’t know what to do…they lost almost the whole Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew…hearts are broken…hard to mend…when we know they were cast to the wind…Now they say GO FORWARD…Leave them behind…but we who lost them…Will do nothing of the kind…Truth we want.”
Thanks Joy keep us informed. You and Sonny are great people.
Thanks for the effort everyone. Some really good work!
I thought you might find this link interesting.
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=2024
Thank you everybody for your various descriptions of how these interagency Cooperative Agreements work. It’s pretty much how I had envisioned them already, but it helps to understand them in a bit more detail (but not too much detail).
Back when I was scouring WildlandFireFighters dot com, I periodically came across various arguments among various people about how they work vs how they should work. I didn’t try to understand them, but I did take note that they do incite arguments!
What I’m trying to get at more is the LEGAL parameters of them, especially in regards to the (in various contexts understandable) with-holding of evidence by the Federal Agencies.
Here’s why:
On October 13, 2014 at 12:08 AM WantsToKnowtheTruth said:
“…At 10:30 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013, someone named Eric Marsh officially became ‘Division A’ and a direct member of the State of Arizona’s fire management team and a direct ‘contracted employee’ of the State of Arizona. His appointment to that fire management position was fully known and fully approved by the other State of Arizona managers/employees that were also working for the State of Arizona in Yarnell that day.
Actually… EVERYONE who was working the Yarnell fire that day can be legally considered an ‘Employee of the State of Arizona’ but even if you could nitpick an Engine or a crew and their actual ‘contractor/subcontractor’ legal status… certainly the MANAGEMENT team itself all had that ‘official’ employment status that day.
The State of Arizona OWNED that fire.
They were the top-level EMPLOYER that day.
They officially ( and legally ) entered into what is called an ‘assumption of risk’ situation and were then totally responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the safety of everyone working there.”
So, specifically, what I’m trying to figure out here is, if the above is the case, no matter how the various streams of money flow around, does this mean that the various Federal Agency people on the fire, especially the ones assigned to the IMT, were, LEGALLY speaking, “employees” of AZ Fire, while on that fire, rather than “employees” of the Federal Agencies they were, normally, employed by?
I’m asking this because I’m wondering how, if that’s the case, that would possibly change the legal status of those people in regards to the “protective umbrella” the USFS/BLM have put in place via their “gag order.”
Would that mean, for example, that that change in status would take precedence over that “protective umbrella?” Especially in regards to ADOSH’s continuing investigation?
(Am I making sense here?)
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Would that mean, for example, that that change in status would take
>> precedence over that “protective umbrella?” Especially in regards to
>> ADOSH’s continuing investigation?
>>
>> (Am I making sense here?)
Yes. I understand perfectly what you are thinking about it here.
It is very, very complicated… legally speaking.
What might help make it clear is that while Mr. Powers is absolutely right about all this ‘sub-contracting’ going on and people actually ‘remaining’ defacto ’employees’ of whoever actually hands them paychecks…
…we are, ultimately, talking about a JOB SITE here.
It’s very similar ( if not identical ) to the construction business.
On any given day ( at a busy construction site ) you have any number of ‘contractors’ and ‘sub-contractors’ obviously all ‘working together’ on a common goal ( the construction itself ). Normally… everything goes fine and everyone goes home that day. Somehow… the billable hours all get processed and everyone eventually gets PAID by the people they actually ‘work’ for.
Sometimes… there is an ACCIDENT.
At that point… it gets very confusing ( legally speaking ) about WHO was really WORKING for WHO and how the ‘liability’ might go down with regards to the accident…
…but one thing is always ‘for sure’.
There is always some TOP LEVEL EMPLOYER who is ultimately responsible for the overall SAFETY of that particular ‘worksite’ no matter how many ‘contractors’ or ‘sub-contractors’ were there ‘working’.
So it really comes down to a ‘chain of liability’ rather than a ‘chain of employment’.
If the TOP LEVEL employer on a construction site ‘borrows’ some guy from some sub-contracted crew to act as a ‘manager’ at the construction site itself ( and even put in charge of people he doesn’t normally work with )… then that TOP LEVEL employer is automatically ( and legally ) entering into the ‘assumption of risk’ for that person’s actions.
If some fatal accident occurs and this person they had ‘tapped’ to be a manager on their behalf had anything to do with it… then the ‘chain of liability’ still extends right the to TOP LEVEL employer… regardless of what ‘crew’ this guy ‘normally’ works for or could be said to be ‘normally’ employed by.
So who you actually get your PAYCHECK from is not the ONLY ‘legal’ criteria when it comes to then trying to determine the ‘chain of liability’.
As for the FEDS and their seeming ability to just play ‘ping-pong’ with this Yarnell Incident and, on the one hand, say it isn’t their job to do an investigation because it was just a ‘State Fire’ and only the STATE has to figure out what happened… and then, on the other hand, use their full powers of ‘immunity’ and ‘protection’ for people they consider ‘their employees’ on this STATE run fire…
…well… what can I say.
It’s the US Forestry Service.
They want their cake and eat it too.
They don’t want to be ‘involved’ in having to figure out what really happened even though a lot of their own ‘by-the-book’ employees were THERE and were both involved in critical decision making AND were critical ‘witnesses’ to the tragic events.
Yet… at the same time… they also chose to NOT fully cooperate with the very STATE level agencies that WERE tasked with investigating the incident ( instead of them ).
It’s a ‘game’ that the US Forestry Service is playing here.
What complicates everything is this whole ‘Sovereign Immunity’ thing.
The FEDS have it. Arizona Forestry does NOT.
Arizona is NOT one of those states where PUBLIC agencies or servants CANNOT be sued.
So even though these ‘Federal Employees’ were being ‘contracted’ to actually WORK on an Arizona Forestry run worksite in a STATE that does NOT have ‘Sovereign Immunity’ laws for PUBLIC workers… does that automatically mean the Federal ‘Immunity’ extends to THOSE sub-contractors’ working in THAT environment on THAT particular day?
Very complicated… legally speaking.
It WILL be interesting to see how this all plays out since, in this particular incident, a number of these (supposed) ‘Federal Employees’ were ( and remain ) KEY PARTICIPANTS and/or KEY WITNESSES to the tragic events that day.
In other words….
How long can the FEDS remain ‘uncooperative’ and prevent certain STATE level agencies from doing the jobs that THEY are required ( by law ) to do.
I still think US Forestry shouldn’t be able to have it both ways.
They shouldn’t be able to ‘pass’ on having to do their own investigation of a tragedy that took place with their own ’employees’ involved as both managers and witnesses… and then be able to still say they have every right to throw their Federal Level ‘Soverign Immunity’ blanket around them as well.
Thank you for your timely reply. I think we’re pretty much sitting on the same page here.
And your response helps me know I’m not way out there in the ozone in the thoughts I’m thinking or the questions I’m asking.
I was thinking, after I wrote what I wrote, that we may be in somewhat uncharted waters here. And I think what you are saying agrees with that thought.
The next thing I thought after the “uncharted waters” thought was that this interesting/significant conflict is probably playing itself out in spades (even as we sit here at our computers and “think out loud”) as ADOSH is going about gathering its larger net of evidence in response to AZ Fire’s (possibly–in hindsight–FAIL) rejection of ADOSH’s claims, and it’s not possible to PREDICT what will happen (given all the complexity) but we are going to have to just OBSERVE how this all plays out.
And I agree with you that the USFS, at this point, wants to have its cake (for some justifiable reasons) and eat it, too.
I often think that the SAIT should have labelled their Report a “Preliminary Report.” The pressure on both the SAIT and the ADOSH to produce investigations/reports in way too little time (especially given the USFS/BLM likely moves to protect their employees by obstructing the investigations), I think, is a part of the mess we are witnessing.
That being said, I’m still mystified as to why the lawsuits target the Central Yavapai Fire Department.
And I still think that it is significant that the (FEDERAL Interagency) National Wildfire Coordinating Group has been tasked, by AZ Fire via the SAIT, to conduct a Human Factors Investigation of this fire, also.
And I’ve been thinking, ever since I discovered that, that THIS investigation could possibly be in play in terms of the possible settlements of the lawsuits.
And another thought that I’ve thought for awhile is this.
The Yarnell Hill Fire engagement was a COMPLETE MESS with or without the deaths of the Granite Mountain 19.
We can debate among ourselves–and HAVE for MONTHS–the responsibility of that crew for its own demise.
But even if you remove from the equation the demise of that crew (with their sleeves rolled up/down and their gloves on/off), you still have left a WHOLE BUNCH OF potentially FATAL near misses.
Which would not even be potentially still left on the table if the Granite Mountain IHC hadn’t died on that fire.
Because of that, I’m really hoping that the current/ensuing investigations look WAY BEYOND the demise of Granite Mountain in order to critique all the other FAILS that put a LOT of other peoples’ lives at serious risk. Lessons Learned Indeed.
And in my book that full investigation and calling a spade a spade should have happened and did not.
WHY? Is it the new way of doing things or just a total failure of the investigation.
The investigation failed to do a lot of things and answer a lot of questions, and make real recommendations.
WTKTT
The USFS is first protecting its Employees from Law suits
as Arizona would if the rolls were reversed.
They are in no way attempting to cover up or obstruct the investigation. The redactions of statements is covered under federal employee rules to protect employee rights to public release of information. This is a job related incident Federal employees are still Federal employees they are not immune to lawsuits but Lawyers are also provided to them in these situations. Their testimony Which was used in the SAIR is still available to the courts and Lawyers. At this time it is not available for public release. Which again answers your question or statement on a fire they are still Federal Employees under Co-op Agreements not AZ Fire Employees. If this was a Federal Fire the statements would still be treated the same under public release of information and a order to not make any public statements to its employees for legal purposes. I do believe that ADOSH could have individually interviewed the Federal Employees if they wanted to and could still do that now but Fed. Lawyers would be present at the interviews.
The testimony is part of the investigation record and there for can be requested by Lawyers from both sides.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2014 at 7:56 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The USFS is first protecting its Employees from
>> Law suits as Arizona would if the rolls were reversed.
The USFS is a FEDERAL level agency.
They already have ‘Sovereign Immunity’… and it extends to their ’employees’. Without being able to prove criminal intent… it would be VERY difficult for anyone to sue a Federal employee with a civil action who is already protected under this ‘Immunity’.
If you simply Google “United States Forestry Service” and “Sovereign Immunity” you will gets TONS of links showing that the USFS is always ready to play the ‘Sovereign Immunity’ card in a heartbeat with regards to any lawsuits filed against them.
So it’s actually not all that credible to believe that whatever the FEDS are withholding might be because of any huge ‘afraid of lawsuits’ motivation.
Arizona Forestry is a completely different story.
Arizona is NOT one of the states in the Union that have passed their own ‘Sovereign Immunity’ legislation for PUBLIC agencies and their employees.
I mentioned yesterday that one of the interesting ‘big level’ legal fights coming out of this incident is whether that Federal Level ‘Sovereign Immunity’ really does legally ( and fully ) extend to USFS employees who are being hired out as ‘contractors’ in a State that HAS no ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for ‘State Contractors’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They are in no way attempting to cover up or
>> obstruct the investigation.
I wish I could share your confidence on this point.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The redactions of statements is covered under
>> federal employee rules to protect employee
>> rights to public release of information.
Yes… but there are MANY heavily redacted sections in the Blue Ridge Unit Logs that do NOT seem to automatically qualify with coverage under that standard ‘privacy’ exemption.
There are sections that seem to have been redacted for ‘other’ reasons… which USFS has never explained.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This is a job related incident Federal employees
>> are still Federal employees they are not immune
>> to lawsuits but Lawyers are also provided to
>> them in these situations.
Well… normally they ARE ‘immune to ‘civil’ lawsuits as long as no criminal intent can be proved or anyone be ‘charged’ with anything.
But you ARE right… nothing is ever written in stone when it comes to this ‘immunity’ stuff and so in a case like Yarnell I’m sure the lawyers have been busy talking to any of their people who were anywhere near Yarnell that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their testimony Which was used in the SAIR is still
>> available to the courts and Lawyers.
I would hope so… but I ( myself ) don’t know that for sure.
They ( Arizona Forestry and the FEDS ) might be fighting any requests from ADOSH and/or the private lawyers as hard as they possibly can.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> At this time it is not available for public release.
If there really is additional ‘Helmet Cam’ footage… we would need to know WHO is actually considered to be in ‘possession’ of it before we could know how difficult it might be for it to ever see the light of day.
If ADOSH ( An Arizona State Agency ) already has it ( the full footage )… then it would take a special ruling by a judge ( just like it did with the autopsy and toxicilogy reports ) for it to NOT be subject to a simple ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.
Of course… if it turns out that the full footage was ALWAYS already in the possession of Arizona Forestry and they already felt free to just ‘butcher’ it and NOT include the full footage in the fulfillment of all those Arizona Open Record requests back in December of last year… then it’s obvious that Arizona Forestry just thinks it can always do whatever the hell it wants and to heck with all that pesky, annoying stuff like Arizona Law.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Which again answers your question or statement
>> on a fire they are still Federal Employees under Co-op
>> Agreements not AZ Fire Employees.
Again. THAT little detail MAY become a very serious issue in this case if everyone wants to go the mat on this one.
As in.. is a USFS employee REALLY still totally covered by Federal Level ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for every little frickin’ contract side-job they sign on for in addition to what they do for their regular paycheck?
Arizona is NOT a state where people hired as ‘contractors’ cannot be sued for actions that lead to death or personal injury.
I guess I need to actually go off and read these actual CO-OP agreement documents you are talking about.
It might be interesting to discover there is actually already some ‘fine print’ in those contracts themselves that covers this very issue and says, one way or the other, who is performing the ‘assumption of risk’ when the contract is signed.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If this was a Federal Fire the statements would still
>> be treated the same under public release of
>> information and a order to not make any public
>> statements to its employees for legal purposes.
>> I do believe that ADOSH could have individually
>> interviewed the Federal Employees if they wanted
>> to and could still do that now but Fed. Lawyers
>> would be present at the interviews.
ADOSH was directly informed that the FEDS were going to go TOUGHY on this one ( slang for Touhy requests ).
They apparently did everything they were being told to do but were still denied the ability to interview USFS employees.
Regardless of how many Touhy requests they filed ( or keep filing )… if USFS still just keeps refusing to honor them… I really don’t know what happens then.
Someone ( US Attorney’s Office? ) has to come down like a hammer on USFS, or something.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The testimony is part of the investigation record
>> and there for can be requested by Lawyers from
>> both sides.
I would hope so… but see above.
Even a State Agency like ADOSH was being forced to submit Touhy requests for every damn thing they were asking to see.
I imagine it’s been even harder for the attorneys for the families.
‘
Somebody doesn’t want people to know what really happened that day… and they are going through an AWFUL lot of trouble to make it difficult for others to find out… even when it is their own legal responsibility to do so ( E.g. ADOSH ).
Marti to keep this from getting lost—
The Head cam video released to the media was edited and I believe the first release to ADOSH was that portion of the Video. ADOSH has sense received the additional 43 min. of the head cam video. So they now have the entire video which evidently has a lot more on GM and Marsh on it. ADOSH evidently plans to release the full video which is now in there possession.
Have not found out how that will be done. Maybe thru a request by the news media. Or maybe the state themselves. All we do know is there is a lot more video out there we haven’t seen or herd.
Thank you!
What you wrote about the video showing the start showing the “hit the play button” really triggered my memory. I REALLY remember seeing something like that, and I remember us discussing it, but the video we have via the FOIA doesn’t show that. It’s a cut of the actual video, not a video of “editing the video.”
So I went on the intertubes yesterday to try to find it, but I couldn’t. Everything I found doesn’t have that “hit the play button” start.
I’m really mystified by this, and also not sure it’s all that worthy of being mystified by it.
Marti… that copy of the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the original 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ clip release that had the ‘weird’ PLAY buttons at the start was the one that accompanied Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ article about the Helmet-Cam on December 13, 2013.
That original Wildfire Today BLOG post AND the accompanying YouTube video are both still there.
I detailed this down below where you asked the same question so here is that same full response reprinted again up here…
** The full post from somewhere down below…
The copy of original ‘Helmet Cam’ footage that was released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013 that had those ‘weird images’ at the start of it was the copy that appeared on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today BLOG post the same day the original was released.
This is the one that actually shows some ‘video controls’ at the start and is obviously a video of someone starting a ‘screen capture’ of some piece of original footage playing in a video player.
That ‘screen capture’ is what ran with Gabbert’s article about the ‘Helmet Cam’ and was also subsequently uploaded to YouTube to the actual ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube channel/account.
That copy of just the FIRST part of the Helmet Cam video that accompanied the Wildfire Today BLOG post was never even the complete footage that was released on December 13, 2013.
‘Wildfire Today’ only chose to ‘screen capture’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the actual full 7 minutes and 49 seconds of the original Helmet-Cam video as released by the SAIT.
Wildfire Today YouTube Video TITLE…
Radio Transmissions from Granite Mountain Hotshots, Yarnell Hill Fire
.Wildfire Today YouTube Video Direct LINK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbrlWTng2JU
This the one that clearly shows someone STARTING the video at a certain point with some kind of video player so this upload to Youtube appears to just be a ‘screen capture’.
.The ‘play’ bar that only appears for a few seconds at the start of the video has the standard ‘video offset’ and ‘video length’ counters on the left and right, respectively.
The ‘video offset’ counter on the left says: 00:02
The ‘video length’ indicator on the right says: 00:03:36
So it would appear that whatever piece of video was about to be ‘screen recorded’ was actually ‘paused’ at 2 seconds into the video before the ‘screen capture’ began and the total length of this ‘video clip’ that was about to be ‘screen captured’ was actually only 3 minutes and 36 seconds.
That means that someone had already ‘chopped’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds off the front of the 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ footage released that same day… and it was THIS ( shorter ) clip from that original footage that they were about to do this ‘screen capture’ on.
The actual length of the resulting ‘screen recording’ that was uploaded to the Wildfire Today YouTube account was 3 minutes and 39 seconds worth of video and it ends WHILE Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were evacuating and BEFORE they reached that second parking spot on Shrine Road.
This ‘screen recorded’ copy of the video actually ends as Hulburd is still traveling EAST on Shrine Road in his truck and right after the following captured radio conversation…
“Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air to Ground”.
It does not actually capture the REPEATED attempts by John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33′ to contact ‘Division Alpha’ once OPS1 Todd Abel basically had to tell him to get his head out of his ass and actually ORDERED him to respond to those men that were frantically calling him.
The extra 3 seconds ( the discrepancy between the 3:36 length shown in the video bar and the actual 3:39 Youtube video length ) is because the way this person ended the screen recording was to PAUSE the video and then turn off the screen capture. It took them 3 seconds after hitting PAUSE to actually stop the screen capture so the last 3 seconds is just a ‘freeze frame’ of one of the trees seen from Aaron Hulburd’s pickup.
It’s not really clear WHY someone at Wildfire Today felt the need to do a ‘screen recording’ of this short 3 minute and 36 video clip that they obviously already had loaded into some video playery. Maybe they were doing that ‘screen recording’ step just to get it uploaded to YouTube. Maybe that was the only way someone there could figure out how to pull off the YouTube upload, or something.
Here is a direct link to Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG post that this featured this ‘weird’ copy of the original Helmet-Cam SAIT release.
It features the same video at the ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube link above and is the one with the ‘weird images’ at the start showing us that this copy of the video was being created using a ‘screen recording’…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/13/video-captures-the-last-radio-transmissions-from-granite-mountain-hotshots/
PS Do you have any thoughts as to what the fact that this is a screen-recording of this video might mean?
My only thoughts there ( and the only time I have ever witnessed anyone else doing that sort of thing ) are along the lines of simply someone not knowing how to upload to Youtube UNLESS they are using one of those ‘Screen Capture’ programs like EZVIDEO or something that does all the ‘uploading’ automatically.
Some people have NO idea about all these various MP4 and MOV and AVI and WMA movie formats.
I once saw someone doing exactly what appears to have happened with the Wildfire Today ‘cut video’ segment.
They had a video clip already… but then they used something called EZVIDEO to do a ‘screen capture’ of it as well. There is then a big button on EZVIDEO that says ‘Upload to Youtube’ and it does, in fact, do just that. No fuss. No muss.
I asked them why they would be bothering to ‘screen capture’ when they already had a video clip they could upload to Youtube themselves and the answer was…
“I don’t know how to do that. EZVIDEO does it for me.”
So I have really no idea why someone at Wildfire Today would have already had a 3 minute and 26 second ‘cut’ of the video and then still elect to do a ‘screen capture’ and then THAT is what ends up on YouTube.
Doesn’t make any sense, really.
Followup to above post…
One of the other possible ‘explanations’ for someone at Wildfire Today feeling the need to do a ‘screen capture’ of that Helmet-Cam video clip they already had loaded in a Video Player could have had to do with SIZE / FORMAT issues.
If Arizona Forestry gave Wildfire Today a DVD… then first they would have had to extract the video from the DVD ( which they apparently did with something that uses the popular ‘Hanbrake’ video extraction/conversion algorithms ).
Even then… what was extracted might have been in the AVI movie format which means it would have been HUGE… and WAY too big for an upload to YouTube so they could link to it in their BLOG post.
So someone might have simply felt the easiest way to get the video clip into a FORMAT and down to a smaller SIZE for a YouTube upload was to do the ‘screen capture’ move, and then it is now in a FORMAT and SIZE compatible with YouTube.
That’s what products like EZVIDEO do.
As it is doing the actual screen capture… it is automatically coming up with a ‘format’ and and a ‘size’ that lets you then immediately upload the ‘screen capture’ to YouTube without having to know any ‘geeky’ stuff like how to run video format conversion software yourself.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Thanks, WTKTT and Bob Powers for the great convo regarding the emerging possibilities of more evidence, the investigations, the conflicts/dances between them, the various possible timelines, etc.
I’ve been away for the past about five days, and wandered in late last night to see what I might have missed. What a surprise!!
So I’ve been re-reading and re-reading, trying to understand what you’re describing, and to digest it, and think more about it.
I have two questions at this point. They both have to do with the idea that, in essence, most everybody was “working for” i.e. “employees of” AZ Fire on that fire, I’m still a little fuzzy about that concept. I do “get” that those who were assigned to “overhead” positions on the Type 2 Short Team would have, thereby, been, legally speaking in this context, considered “employees” of AZ Fire that day.
MY FIRST QUESTION, then, has to do with USFS (and to a lesser but still relevant extent BLM) employees on that fire. We have been assuming, and for good reason, that the reason they were “gagged” by the USFS/BLM was that they came under that “umbrella” that the USFS/BLM has put in place to protect its employees as a result of the post-Thirty-Mile-Fire pre-Cramer-Fire legislation (that I can’t right now off the top of my head remember the Law’s name).
How does that “umbrella of protection” interact with the concept that everybody was “employees” of AZ Fire on this fire?
And, especially, how does that interact with the concept that the Overhead who was assigned to the Type 2 Team was, via that assignment, legally speaking, therefore, employees of AZ Fire on that fire?
(I’m sorta kinda thinking “out loud” here.)
I guess what I’m generally asking here is what, generally, is the situation regarding people who are, basically, federal employees on this fire, in regards to this concept that everybody, especially the Incident Management Team assignees, was, essentially and maybe legally, employed by AZ Fire, once they were assigned to them?
Some of those people could/would have included Dean Fernandez (BLM) on Saturday, when the decision (highly criticized by the ADOSH Report) to assign a Type 2 Short Team was made, Rory Collins (USFS) ATGS both Saturday and Sunday, Rusty Warbis (USFS) Pilot Bravo 3 Sunday (I don’t know where this fits in the IMT framework), Paul Lenmark (BLM) ASM Bravo 3 Sunday, Tom French (USFS) Pilot Bravo 33 Sunday (again I don’t know where this fits in the IMT framework), John Burfiend (USFS) ASM Bravo 33 Sunday, and the various members of the Type 2 Team of Bea Day brought in (are they then also “employees”–somebody had to pay them), including Bea Day (USFS) and Jason Clauson (USFS) who, I think, was a Div S on her team.
I’m feeling really muddy here regarding how these federal employees fit into the concept that everybody was “an employee” of AZ Fire once they were assigned to this fire, and especially those who were assigned as “overhead,” ie.assigned members of the Incident Management Teams(s).
MY SECOND QUESTION that has been bugging me ever since the lawsuits were publicized has to do with all of this is WHY is Central Yavapai Fire Department targetted in the lawsuits????? After reading all you two wrote about all of this, I’m still REALLY stumped regarding this.
If it’s because of Todd Abel, that doesn’t hold if we are determining that the AZ Fire IMT employed him as, first a Div S, and then an OPS, and thus whatever he may or may not have “done wrong” is included under AZ Fire EMPLOYEE accountability.
If it’s because of the TOTALLY incompetent and chaotic and seriously LIFE-THREATENING evacuation of Glen Illah/Yarnell, it seems to me that Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office is WAY MORE at fault.
Marti.. I am actually ON an airplane at at the moment which happens to be in-range of a ground based cell network which isn’t participating in this new promised WiFi support from LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellites bullshit that you are probably seeing new TV commercials about so I have to make this quick before I lose the ground based pickup…
…but the bottom line is that even the people who were working the fire have no fucking idea HOW they get paid as long as they get paid.
Even the ADOSH people were asking DIVSZ Rance Marquez himself how he was ‘getting paid’ for his participation in the Yarnell fiasco and he told them he had no frickin’ idea.
It’s complicated… but that doesn’t mean there still wasn’t an agency (Arizona Forestry) that wasn’t ultimately responsible for the LEGAL obligation known as ‘assumption of risk’.
More later ( when this frickin’ plane lands ).
Some what complicated were they employees of the State?
We have to first go back to the Co-op Agreements.
As Fire Fighters assigned to the Fire they were requested and working for the State of Arizona. They were contracted employees From other agencies paid at those agencies rates. Covered by those agencies rules and regulations, Liability and insurance. All of this is stipulated in the Co-op Agreement.
As for Pay the Federal government is reimbursed by the State for each fire there people are on. Reimbursement is a yearend type thing for all agencies.
The Federal employees were paid by the Federal government according to each fire charge every 2 weeks out of Federal funding which is then reimbursed by the State.
While they were working for the State on the Fire and being paid by the State for there time The State was not writing individual checks to them.
They were not actual Employees as the term implies.
The Federal Government was still in charge of and responsible for there Pay and other contract agreements.
The State is not in reality there employer but contractor on each Fire and pays the contractor The Government for each use that is billed to the State. Works same with all other agencies.
Woops missed something……
If the State Hires equipment and Temporary employees they are paid direct at the end of the fire or term of employment by the State. Referred to in the Government as AD employees. Finance section writes checks at end of service.
AZ FIRE is the responsible party for all decisions and actions taken on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
All costs incurred are there liability. The Fire team though not there employees per say are responsible to AZ Fire and AZ Fire is responsible for the decisions made by the team.
The State is involved in all decisions made in plans to suppress the fire and a liaison is usually involved with the fire, may not be on the fire but in direct contact with the IC.
If the State and the Fire Team under there direction made bad decisions and caused Fatalities or property loss then they are liable for the Loss. Regardless of who each member of the team is fully employed by. It is a State Fire on State Land Run by the State.
Hope all that helps. You would have to read all the Co-op Agreements to get a feel for how each one works. It is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo for sure, just to share resources.
The State of Arizona gets an IA, the state orders resources, and generally for initial attack it’s closest resources concept (AZ State calls them Local Agency Resources). So the State receives resources from BLM, USFS, and who knows what other agencies, counties or AD/EFF types you might get. Like Bob P says, there are cost share agreements in place prior to fire season with various charge codes created for things like Forest Service assistance to State of Arizona, or Mutual Aid to the State of Arizona, etc. The assigned unique codes coincide with which agency has responsibility for the fire. USUALLY unique P-codes will be created for larger incidents or fires that go into extended attack or past the first operational period.
Then at the end of the fiscal year, the varying agencies are billed for reimbursable expenses, based on the cooperative agreement, and the bean counters have their way. Technically BLM and USFS employees are not ’employees of the State of Arizona” but are eventually paid by them via their home agency.
Marti have you read in the ADOSH material, file name ADOSH Yarnell Fire Investigation then under Cooperative Fire Agreements? Definitely worth a read through if you haven’t before, explains intricacies of fighting fire with multiple agencies under a cooperative agreement–at least for the State of Arizona, because every state is different. Hope I am not muddling this up more for you.
Also WTKTT says “but the bottom line is that even the people who were working the fire have no fucking idea HOW they get paid as long as they get paid.” Why should firefighters understand how the fiscal aspect of getting paid works? That is straight up someone else’s job. If Rance Marquez actually explained how cost share agreements worked during his interview I would have been in shock and awe–why should he understand this? Sure there are basics to it but come on. FMO’s, AFMO’s and up should have a grasp on how funding works and I’m not sure of Marquez’ full time position.
One more thing…Rory Collins is not a USFS employee…he’s an ODF employee, Oregon Department of Forestry and works for Douglas Forest Protective Association out of Douglas, Oregon. So he is not a federal employee and has no umbrella of protection and can talk! He’s not under any gag related order, unless his lawyers have told him to keep it down.
Thanks you saved me trying to remember all the little things that go with it like Mutual Aid agreements Shook out my cobwebs a little.
Thank you for correcting me on Rory Collins’ status! I was definitely assuming that he was un-cooperative with the ADOSH investigation because he was under the USFS “gag order.” So it was a personal decision, on his part, to not cooperate. Hmmmmmm……
And, no, I haven’t read the “Cooperative Fire Agreements” document. I decided it might make my brain hurt more than I really needed in order to understand it. It was hard enough to scour the intertubes enough to gain an understanding of how all the various aircraft on that fire were contracted/flown/paid for/piloted/staffed/owned/etcetera.
But, given this conversation, I might read it this weekend.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on October 17, 2014 at 2:27 pm
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Why should firefighters understand how the fiscal
>> aspect of getting paid works?
Why should ANYONE understand where their money (really) comes from and WHO they are ever (actually) working FOR?…
Because those are simply pretty good things to know.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> That is straight up someone else’s job.
>> If Rance Marquez actually explained how cost share
>> agreements worked during his interview I would have been
>> in shock and awe–why should he understand this?
>> Sure there are basics to it but come on.
>> FMO’s, AFMO’s and up should have a grasp on how
>> funding works and I’m not sure of Marquez’ full time position.
As of his ADOSH interview… 23 year career with BLM.
At the time of the Yarnell incident…
State Fuel’s Lead – Program Lead for Arizona BLM ( since 2009 ).
He also calls himself a carded ‘Type 2 Burn Boss’, ‘Task Force Leader’,
and ‘Division Supervisor’.
He considers HIMSELF an ‘old fire dog’… but still has no idea about how the actual contracting on fires works?
That really seems a little weird…. and even the Wildland Fire Associates investigators thought so ( and said so during his interview ).
They found it ‘strange’ that he would be in that Arizona BLM office for 4 years and still not really know where his contract money really comes from.
From Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q1: Burce Hanna ( ADOSH )
A: Rance Marquez ( Career BLM employee and DIVSZ in Yarnell )
————————————
35 Q1: So we just want to start with Marq – Mr. Marquez? You want to get his um,
36 background. How long have you worked for BLM?
37
38 A: Twenty three years, since 1988. So you do the math.
39
40 Q1: 1988, okay. What – and where do you work out of?
41
42 A: Right now, I’m out of the Arizona State Office.
43
44 Q1: Which is where?
45
46 A: Phoenix, Arizona.
47
48 Q1: Is it in this building?
49
50 A: We’re sitting in it.
51
52 Q1: Oh, this is your office? Okay.
53
54 A: This is my office, yes.
55
56 Q1: Okay. Can you give us a uh, brief synopsis of your career in firefighting?
57
58 A: Sure. Um, started my career with BLM in Salt Lake City in 1988, uh, went to
59 school Las Cruces, New Mexico and I did the co-op thing back and forth for four
60 years. Uh, once graduated, um, upon graduation, didn’t have room for me in Utah
61 so I moved – I got or I was offered a job in Wyoming. Spent nine years in
62 Wyoming as a Range Land Management Specialist, uh, with regards to the fire
63 side of thing – did – we did a lot of – we – we did a lot of prescribed fire before
64 the advent of the fuels program and the hazard fuels. The big money push um,
65 starting in about, I don’t know, 2000’ish I guess. Um, from Wyoming, I moved
66 on to Burley, Idaho as a Fire Use Specialist in the Twin Falls District. Was there
67 for eight years and um, and then in October of 2009, I took this position as a State
68 Fuel’s Lead – Program Lead for Arizona BLM. Uh, came up through the ranks
69 kind of the old way when – with regards to fire, uh, where the resource staff were
70 supposed to be part of the fire crews as well. Worked my way up and to the point
71 to where uh, Type Two Burn boss with regards to fire qualifications and then um,
72 Division Supervisor.
73
74 Q1: Okay. What other red cards or certif- certification…
75
76 A: Uh…
77
78 Q1: …do you hold?
79
80 A: Task Force Leader. Um, higher stuff, Multiple Single Resource Boss. Um,
81 Qualifications Crew, engine, dozer, uh, firing um, worked in the fire world for a
82 very – very long time. I’ve a lot of experience in Wyoming doing a lot of details
83 with the Wyoming Hot Shots. So um…
84
85 Q1: Okay.
86
87 A: …you could say I’m an old fire dog now I guess.
——————————-
>> Fire20+ also said
>>
>> One more thing…Rory Collins is not a USFS employee…
>> he’s an ODF employee, Oregon Department of Forestry
>> and works for Douglas Forest Protective Association out of
>> Douglas, Oregon. So he is not a federal employee and has
>> no umbrella of protection and can talk! He’s not under any
>> gag related order, unless his lawyers have told him to
>> keep it down.
Oregon is like Arizona.
It is NOT one of the states that has ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for STATE level agencies and employees. Oregon State Agencies ( like Oregon Forestry and any of its employees ) CAN be ‘sued’.
There is, however, a law in Oregon called the “Oregon Tort Claims Act’ ( OTCA ).
It doesn’t establish ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for Oregon State Agencies ( like Oregon Forestry ) or its employees… but it DOES limit the actual AMOUNTS of money that could ever be ‘awarded’ for claims against Oregon agencies. It can get into the single-digit millions of dollars… but not double-digits.
So I am sure anyone who actually works for Oregon Forestry that was in Yarnell that day has been being advised by the Oregon State Attorney’s office.
For what it is worth… here is where ADOSH was asking Rance Marquez
how he was getting ‘paid’ and Marquez didn’t really know much about that…
Page 35 of ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Bruce Hanna ( ADOSH )
A = Rance Marquez ( Arizona Forestry’s DIVSZ in Yarnell )
————————————————————————
1551 Q1: Okay. Um, got a couple of questions for you. So you’re in cooperative
1552 agreement with the State Forester as far as you – you being used as a resource?
1553
1554 A: Uh, we’re all – no. Uh, BLM cooperates as a cooperating agency with State
1555 Forestry, but uh, we have a NWCG qual- qualifications that we all go through.
1556
1557 Q1: Okay. What I’m getting at is – is Marshall, my supervisor, is asking me how you
1558 are paid for these kind of events when you’re used as a resource.
1559
1560 A: Well, it’s cost – cost reimbursable type.
1561
1562 A: Like in the end?
1563
1564 A: I – I guess. I – that’s a pretty convoluted question. Um…
1565
1566 Q1: Well answer the best you can.
1567
1568 A: Here, being cooperative state, there’s a – well, it used to be anyway, but now
1569 everybody does it’s like – we change – the past – the Forest Service used to
1570 handle the Master Cooperative Agreement and so the Forest Service kind of
1571 brokered over the orders between all agencies and handled who…
1572
1573 Q1: Mm-hm.
1574
1575 A: …got paid what.
1576
1577 Q1: Mm-hm.
1578
1579 A: So this part of the whole fire world is a little bit uh, foreign to me. I’m not in the
1580 – in the finance. I’ve been – I been – I’ve been a grunt and I just put my fire – my
1581 – my code down on my time sheet and…
1582
1583 Q1: Mm-hm.
1584
1585 A: …who gets paid in the end and how the money comes down is a little unknown to
1586 me.
1587
1588 Q1: Really? After four years here?
1589
1590 A: Uh, yeah. Uh, I – cause I don’t do the – I don’t do – I’m not on the business – fire
1591 business side of things.
1592
1593 Q1: Okay.
1594
1595 ((Crosstalk))
1596
1597 A: Although I do know that uh, as far as – I do have an understanding that we bill the
1598 State, they bill us for portions of a predetermined amount of – of dollars. I – I – I
1599 do – or acres burned.
—————————————————————————–
He just goes and fights a fire goes home and gets his pay check every 2 weeks.
He should read the Co-op Agreements and talk to his finance people and parole people its not that complicated.
You get a fire charge number and you use that for all the time you are on the fire any fire any agency the charge number identifies the agency’s fire for records and billing by each agency.
The entire time you are assigned to the fire the time you travel and work is billed to the fire and your agency receives the funds to pay the employees normally prior to the end of the physical year Oct. 30th. for each fire people were on during the summer.
**
** RANCE MARQUEZ VERIFIES THAT PRICE VALLEY HELITAK WAS THERE
While checking to see exactly what ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez told ADOSH about his conversation with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark )… I stumbled on this other section of his interview that I had forgotten about where he tells ADOSH what he did ‘the rest of the day’.
As it turns out… Marquez then VERIFIES that Todd Pedersen and others from ‘Price Valley Helitack’ were, in fact, THERE in Yarnell later in the day and that they WERE assisting with structure protection in the ‘Sickles Road’ area not long before the deployment.
The KEY section is the LAST paragraph down below…
From Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q3 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ).
A = Rance Marquez.
————————————————————————————
1204 Q3: Okay. So uh, after you had your – your conversation and uh, things were tough
1205 figuring out how to get things going or started or where the division break is, any
1206 of that stuff, it was a tough piece of ground to work or tough piece of ground uh,
1207 to figure out from what I can – from – gather – gather. What – what did you uh,
1208 what did you do the rest of the day?
1209
1210 A: Well after I left the area, I went back to ICP. I tied in with uh, with Mussers. I
1211 didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I – what I’d found and that there just
1212 wasn’t any good options there cause I couldn’t really raise them on the radios and
1213 about that time, things started to get really busy. Uh, fire intensity picked up um,
1214 tremendously about that time and um, downloaded my information what I had
1215 with Mussers and about that time, Cougan called me back and said there’s some
1216 structures being threatened right there at the junction, just across – not very far
1217 from ICP which was at Peeples Valley. Um, where was it, it was Sickles Road
1218 and something over there.
1219
1220 Q1: Mm-hm.
1221
1222 A: There’s like maybe four or five – four or five structures…
1223
1224 Q1: Sickles up in here?
1225
1226 A: Yeah. So these are being bumped really, really hard.
1227
1228 Q1: We’re in 26 Dave.
1229
1230 Q3: Okay.
1231
1232 A: Um, the fire went from basically a flanking fire up to that time to head fire. Um,
1233 people were in the way. We had to uh, kind of move people out. People were
1234 actually, you know, the – it’s – people were s- asking us whether they should stay.
1235 We’re trying to get people out away from the houses. Um, and about that time,
1236 that’s when I saw who you’re going to interview next, Dan Philbin. I tie in with
1237 him and also about that time, uh, we had – Dan had got a couple – by that time, it
1238 became just a set of independent actions. People were just pulling equipment as it
1239 was rolling in and putting it to work. Had a couple Water Tenders aType 6
1240 Engine. I – uh, folks from Price Helitack came walking up – were walking up
1241 towards the – where we were at. I gave them a ride up. Got people briefed. Um,
1242 so things were pretty ra- going pretty rapid. About that time, um, the divisions
1243 from Bea Day’s Team and uh, Operations Clock uh, Jason Clausen and Kasey
1244 Owl and uh, Robuckie and um, who was the other division? I know them,
1245 because I worked as a trainee um, a division trainee with Bea Day’s Team or
1246 Templin’s Team a couple years before. So…
1247
1248 Q3: And – and they’re arriving at the fire? What – what time is this? I mean, time of
1249 day?
1250
1251 A: Uh, this was getting to be about 3:30, 1530.
————————————————————————————-
So Rance Marquez himself met the ‘Price Helitack’ people circa 3:30 PM.
1240 Folks from Price Helitack came walking up – were walking up
1241 towards the – where we were at. I gave them a ride up. Got people briefed.
A little later in the interview… Marquez then verifies that he was actually ‘sitting’ with
the ‘Price Valley Helicopter crew manager’ Todd Pederson AND some OTHER
members of this mysterious Price Valley Helitack crew…
——————————————————————
1370 A: Right. Just outside of ICP. That’s where, you know, again, uh, things became a
1371 series of just – of just independent actions.
1372
1373 Q3: Okay. Right. Uh, then eventually, at some point, you – you went down to
1374 Yarnell I think, or not?
1375
1376 A: Um, after – well, I – after – after we heard that they uh, after the fire front passed
1377 the structures or was subsided on the structures that we were protecting, there was
1378 a SEAT drop and we kind of organized some mop up, um, I was sitting with uh,
1379 Price uh, with the Price helicopter uh, manager and uh, Price Valley and uh, I
1380 heard uh, Air Attack which I believe later on, I don’t believe it – it was – they had
1381 a – sw- they swapped out Air Attacks. I think Lead 1-1 was actually at the Air
1382 Attack at the time but uh, earlier I heard an air to ground call asking Granite
1383 Mountain if – if they were okay and uh, this was as we were protecting stuff and
1384 as things we were getting busy. Um, I heard them, “Yes. Uh, we’re hunkered in
1385 the black.” That was the response.
1386
1387 Q3: Any idea what time that was?
1388
1389 A: I’ve wrote that down. Um, sometime – sometime between 3:30 – yeah, after 3:30
1390 to 4:00.
1391
1392 You know who that was that uh, made that statement that we’re hunkered in the
1393 black?
1394
1395 A: No. I don’t. The one thing I’m almost certain that it was not Eric. Eric um, was
1396 –was from – from the south, so from North Carolina or something. So I knew
1397 what he sounded like on a radio. It didn’t sound like Eric.
——————————————————————————
So there is Rance Marquez again verifying that it wasn’t just Todd Pedersen that was there in Yarnell that day. Some number of this mysterious ‘Price Valley Helitack’ crew were ALSO there and the interview goes on to establish that they were then used to help protect structures over in the Sickles Road area.
The ‘Resource Orders’ document still says there were ELEVEN ‘Helitack’ crew there that day.
NONE of these ‘Helitack’ crew members ( including Todd Pedersen ) have ( as far as we know ) EVER been interviewed by ANYONE… even though Todd Pedersen himself is now on record as being the first firefighter to publicly admit there WAS radio traffic from Granite Mountain just before the deployment and that he HEARD this traffic.
** MARQUEZ HEARD ( JESSE STEED SAY? ) ‘WE ARE HUNKERED IN THE BLACK’
Notice also just above that this is where Marquez is SURE he heard Air-Attack ( Bravo 33 at that point ) asking Granite Mountain if they were OK over Air-To-Ground ( which would definitely mean it was Burfiend making that call to them ) and then he heard someone from GM announce over the radio that they were, in fact, ‘hunkered in the black’ and obviously had no plans to go anywhere.
Marquez also says he is CERTAIN that it was NOT ‘Eric Marsh’ making this announcement.
Marquez had worked as a ‘Task Force Leader’ for THREE days under DIVS Eric Marsh on the Doce fire and he knew Eric Marsh’s ‘North Carolina’ southern drawl well… and he is ‘almost CERTAIN’ that whoever was announcing they were ‘hunkered in the black’ was NOT Eric Marsh.
So it must have been Jesse Steed himself making THIS ‘announcement’ back to ‘Bravo 33’.
Perhaps that is what eventually led to the possible ‘argument’ between Steed and Marsh.
Steed himself had ‘announced’ they were definitely ‘Hunkered in the black’ and were going to STAY there… but Marsh still had ‘other’ ideas and still had yet to make his ‘sell job’ to Jesse with regards to ‘moving the men’.
** BEA DAY, JASON CLAWSON, AARON HULBURD AND KC ‘BUCKY’ YOWELL AGAIN
Notice also in this section of Marquez’s ADOSH interview where he verifies seeing the ‘Price Valley Helitack’ he ALSO confirms that Bea Day and the ‘off-the-radar’ DIVS hires Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were also already there in Yarnell.
He also goes on to say that it seemed like KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell himself was still under the impression that THEY might be ‘taking over the fire’ even as late as 3:30 PM.
Apparently… no one was even bothering to inform Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell that it had already been decided to bump the incident up to a ‘Type 1’ team and that Bea Day’s Type 2 team was already ‘obsolete’ and weren’t going to be needed.
——————————————————————
1291 Q3: And – and were you – am I getting this right this by 1530 or so, the uh, Bea Day’s
1292 Team members are starting to show up?
1293
1294 A: Yes. Because their uh, oh shoot. There was folks there, I mean, I – when – when
1295 I – when I uh, got back to ICP, I – I saw Bea’s – Bea there herself, um, talking on
1296 her – on a telephone or – or cell phone rather. Um, the Air Attack, Dan Sullivan
1297 was there. He was helping out, so there was folks um, Aaron Hubbard was the
1298 other division and um, yeah. There was folks from Bea’s tes – Team’s there so I
1299 don’t know what was transpiring behind the scenes. I have no idea, but I did ask
1300 Bucky cause he drove up and – in a UTV and um, asked me who I was and then
1301 he recognized me and we started – we – we chatted very briefly and I asked him if
1302 Bea was going to take over the fire and he kind of said, “Mmm, maybe. We don’t
1303 know.” and then they had to leave because their vehicles were parked at the ICP
1304 across the road north or south of the ICP and they were getting bumped pretty
1305 hard. They thought they were going to – they might – they had to move their
1306 vehicles.
———————————————————–
NOTE the continual ‘misspelling’ of names here with regards to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell.
Aaron Hubbard = Aaron Hulburd
Bucky = KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
It is still not documented anywhere exactly WHEN Bea Day and Clawson and Hulburd and Yowell finally understood that they were already ‘obsolete’ that day and whether they realized they were now just ‘freelancing’ on that fire if they ‘jumped in’ to actually DO anything ( which, it seems, they DID do, anyway, and this just added to the total confusion at the command level that day ).
**
** RANCE MARQUEZ’S CONVERSATION(S) WITH ‘BRAVO 3’ AND ERIC MARSH
This is just some ‘followup’ for the post below where I basically shut down my own theory that maybe Marsh was so convinced he was ‘essential’ to directing retardant drops that day that this might have been his primary motivation for making such a risky move to ‘get back to town’.
The following are excerpts from Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview where he confirms that Marsh DID overhear Air-Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) telling Marquez ( circa 12:15 PM ) they had already decided to lay that ‘desperation’ retardant line across the valley… but that Marsh didn’t seem to express any opinion about it at all… OR then be involved in any way with what ‘Bravo 3’ then proceeded to do with retardant.
Q2 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Barry Hicks
Q3 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ).
A = ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez
434 Q3: Okay. Uh, how did the chatted a bit uh, conversation – what did – what did you
435 actually talk to uh, Marsh about? Can – can you tell me what that conversation
436 actually was?
437
438 A: Yeah. Sure. Um, you know, we uh, again, my orders were to go in and figure out
439 a division break and uh…
440
441 Q3: Right…
442
443 A: …Eric was kind of hard to get a hold of at first. So I ended up talking to Air
444 Attack first and I don’t know if he wasn’t expecting someone to come in or – or
445 what, and was trying formulate what they were doing cause they were up on the
446 heel and uh, there was a lot of retardant and being flown on the fire at – at that
447 time and you could see the edge of the fire. You could see it – it wasn’t exactly
448 rolling, but it was – it was active. It was kind of a long line of – at that time, kind
449 of backing fire and occasionally it would jump – it – it would stand up a little bit
450 and sit back down and uh, got Air Attack’s point of view on what – what they
451 were doing with retardant, what they hoped to do and then uh, finally got a hold
452 of Eric and basically, I just introduced myself. I had to remind him who I was
453 cause I – he was actually a division on the Doce Fire that I worked on as a Task
454 Force Leader, the ten days before.
Marquez’s testimony at this point matches exactly what Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ( Air Attack Bravo 3 ) said in their own ADOSH interviews.
They ( Warbis and Lenmark ) had ALREADY determined ( circa 12:15 PM ) that the fire was GOING to be headed into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… and they didn’t see anyone on the south side of the fire doing anything to protect Yarnell… so they had already decided they needed to try and do SOMETHING to protect that town.
Then they SHARED their concerns and this ‘plan’ with ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez.
Marquez said…
450 ( I ) got Air Attack’s point of view on what – what they
451 were doing with retardant, what they hoped to do
Then Marquez pretty much verifies that Marsh had ‘overheard’ pretty much this entire conversation Marquez had with Air Attack ( Warbis and Lenmark in Bravo 3 ).
689 Q2: Uh-huh. And which Air Attack was that you were talking to?
690
691 A: Boy, it was one of the dedicated Air Attacks. I know later that they switched out,
692 but I don’t remember which one it was.
693
694 Q2: Okay. And uh – uh, were – were they in a – a twin engine airplane carrier, could
695 you tell?
696
697 A: I could not tell.
698
699 Q2: Okay. Um, and did um, so you had not been able to contact Eric before you had
700 the conversation with Air Attack, is that correct?
701
702 A: That’s correct.
703
704 Q2: And did uh, did Eric indicate that he uh, overheard the conversation with Air
705 Attack?
706
707 A: That was my understanding from our conversation later when – when he hit me
708 up on the radio. The – my uh, I didn’t have to bring him up on uh, to speed. It
709 was my understanding that he had copied that transmission from Air Attack to –
710 which would make sense uh, in my point of view, since he wasn’t expecting
711 anybody to contact him, really, on – on the ground frequencies. I’m sure he was
712 talking to Air Attack. So he was – he – he had been monitoring air to ground.
The ADOSH investigators then digress a bit but come back to asking Marquez if Division A Eric Marsh expressed any ‘concerns’ about what he had heard Bravo 3 discussing with him.
Marquez said NO… and then basically just then tells them that even though he was sure Marsh had been hearing his entire conversation with Warbis and Lenmark in ‘Bravo 3’… the only ‘concerns’ Marsh was expressing ( which other have described as an argument ) was that Marquez himself was trying to take ‘real estate’ away from HIM without consulting with HIM first.
So Warbis and Lenmark then proceeded ( right away ) with their OWN ‘plan’ to build that long retardant line out in the open fuel ( even though they knew this wasn’t the best idea in the world ) and in their own interview they NEVER mention ‘coordinating’ that with DIVSA Marsh in any way.
So again… I think this is all just more proof that while Marsh *MAY* have still thought ( later in the day ) it was ‘important’ for him to ‘get to town’ to direct retardant drops… it would NOT be because he had been any kind of ‘participant’ in what ‘Bravo 3’ was doing earlier that day.
Marsh simply doesn’t appear to have been involved in directing and/or building that ‘Bravo 3’ retardant line that day.
It remains a mystery, then, what DIVSA Marsh was ACTUALLY doing while all that was happening for those 2 hours and 47 minutes between his known participation in the 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM face-to-face with Frisby and Brown and then his eventual ‘chiming in’ on the radio when SGPS Gary Cordes wanted Blue Ridge to work on that ‘Cutover Trail’ circa 3:32 PM.
**
** HELMET-CAM EXIF DATA
All of the following information below about the ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was suddenly released by the SAIT back on December 13, 2013 has appeared on this forum before in various places… but since the ‘Helmet Cam’ is now being discussed again I thought it was worth assembling this information into one post again.
What is now known as the ‘Helmet Cam Video’ was first released to the media on Friday, December 13, 2013.
The ‘Arizona Republic’ article that ran the video right away says it was actually distributed/released by the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigators…
From the original ‘Arizona Republic’ article that appeared at
10:57 PM on December 13, 2013…
—————————————————————————
The video that includes the radio transmissions of the Granite Mountain Hotshots is part of a release of public records on Friday by the Arizona State Forestry Division. The records are investigative documents that preceded two official reports about the Yarnell Hill Fire, which killed 19 members of the hotshot team.
—————————————————————————
This sudden ‘release’ of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video came just 9 days AFTER the release of ADOSH’s official report.
The SAIR was released on September 28, 2013.
The ADOSH report was released on December 4, 2013.
The full details of this ‘release’ such as WHO actually ‘released’ it ( their NAME ), or WHY it was suddenly released… or WHO knew about its existence outside of the SAIT are all still totally unknown. The video just suddenly ‘appeared’.
Absolutely NO details were provided by the SAIT regarding WHO actually took this video ( we know now it was Prescott FF Aaron Hulburd ), WHERE it was actually taken ( we know now it was in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot ) or exactly WHAT kind of device was used to record this video ( still unknown ).
The only PUBLIC copy ( that I know of ) of this same video that was released by the SAIT on December 13 is the one obtained by InvestigativeMedia reporter John Dougherty and posted to IM’s online Dropbox at this exact link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAA1leT4eVUPeelQRMu2zGCMa/Photos%20and%20Video/HelmetCamVideo%20%28Audio%20of%20GMH%29?dl=0
This ‘Folder’ actually contains THREE files released by the SAIT…
M2U00265.mp4 – 7 minutes and 49 seconds of video/audio.
transcript_video_M2U00265.docx – Someone’s typed transcript of the video.
_README.txt – A small text file someone created that just says the following…
“It appears the timestamp is 6 minutes behind the actual time. This is based
on the correlations of conversations on the air-to-ground frequency in this video
to conversations on victor frequency in the Aerial Firefighting Study videos.”
NOTE: ‘Victor Frequency’ is just a reference to the VHF ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel
versus the UHF ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
** M2U0065.mp4
The M2Uxxxxx filename prefix is usually associated with files that are being created by ‘Sony’ cameras. We still have no idea what KIND of ‘Helmet Camera’ Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd was using that day but the ‘M2U’ prefix would indicate a ‘Sony’ camera.
The EXIF metadata indicates this COPY of the original was created with a piece of software that uses the Open Source ‘Handbrake’ video encoder/decoder. ‘Handbrake’ is a famous piece of software originally developed to extract videos from DVD disks and is able to ‘change the format’ of the video as it ‘copies’ it.
It is NOT the original video copied directly from whatever ‘device’ was used to create it.
If it was… there would be DEVICE information in the EXIF metadata itself.
There isn’t any ( device information ).
It is definitely an EDITED copy of the original.
The proof is in the difference between the ‘Media Create Date/Time’ and ‘Media Modify Date/Time’ and the ‘Track Create Date/Time’ and ‘Track Modify Date/Time’…
Media Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Media Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Media Duration: 0:07:49
Track Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Track Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Track Duration: 0:07:49
BOTH of these sets of EXIF data say that this COPY of the original was CREATED on December 20, 2013 at 1:34:53.
BOTH of these sets of EXIF data then also say that after this COPY was CREATED… it was MODIFIED and saved back to disk exactly 4 minutes and 17 seconds LATER on December 20, 2013 at 1:39:10.
There is no AUDIT TRAIL information in the EXIF metadata so it’s really impossible to say exactly WHAT ‘editing’ took place during those 4 minutes and 17 seconds between the ‘Create Time’ and the final ‘Modify Time’.
Technically… just the difference between the ‘Create’ time and the ‘Modify’ time don’t really indicate any changes to the original were made at all. You could have a file like this loaded up into a Video Editor and every time you elect to just ‘Save’ the video back to disk the ‘Modify Date/Time’ is still going to change regardless of whether you made any changes or not.
But here is what most LIKELY happened here…
1) Someone had a copy of the original ‘raw’ video with a ‘left of dot’ filename
of M2U00265 exactly the way the Helmet-Cam device named it. The file
EXTENSION ( Letters to the right of the DOT ) were probably still the
original Apple Quicktime MOV format normally used by Sony devices.
2) They used a Video Editing program that also uses the Open Source
‘Handbrake’ Vide encoder/decoder to ‘pull’ that original video off a DVD
and also CONVERT it to the ‘mp4’ video format at the same time.
3) Now they have the CONVERTED (original) video copied off of the DVD
sitting on their own hard drive with the same original device-generated filename
of M2U00265 but a new file extension of ‘mp4’.
4) BOTH The ‘Creation Date/Time’ and the ‘Modify Date/Time’ values for this
COPY of the video have now been set to 2013:12:20 01:34:53. The ‘Create Date’
values and the ‘Modify Date’ values would now forever remain the SAME unless
you call the video up in an editor, make changes, and SAVE it back to disk.
The ‘Create Date’ values will still remain the moment it was ‘Created’ on your
hard drive but the ‘Modify Date’ values would then change.
5) Someone now called this fresh COPY of the original video into a Video
Editor and, for the next 4 minutes and 17 seconds, made CHANGES to it.
6) After 4 minutes and 17 seconds of ‘editing’ this copy of the original, they
SAVED it back to disk again… and now THAT ‘edited’ copy was the one
distributed by the SAIT.
So that is what PROBABLY happened… as per the EXIF metadata that
is still embedded in this COPY of the original video.
It’s unfortunate that the EXIF standard does NOT have a field with the
name “Original Media Duration”. If it did… then not only would you be able
to see the TIME difference between when a file was CREATED and/or MODIFIED,
you would also be able to compare the LENGTHS between what it was when
the file was first CREATED… to what it currently is after being MODIFIED.
But simply those 4 minutes and 17 seconds between when the original was
actually CREATED on someone’s hard drive and when it was MODIFIED
do, in fact, indicate that SOME kind of ‘editing’ took place.
** The TRANSCRIPT
Perhaps the additional proof that the video released by the SAIT is just an ‘edited’ copy of the original ‘raw footage’ lies in the TRANSCRIPT that was also released by the SAIT along with the video.
At the top of that TRANSCRIPT we see the following…
————————————————————-
Transcript of video M2U00265.MPG
Date Modified: 6/30/2013 4:33:12 PM
————————————————————-
Notice this ‘Date Modified’ entry that someone from the SAIT left at the top of the Transcription file.
It seems to be an exact copy of the ‘Date Modified’ field that would have been present in the EXIF metadata for the actual ORIGINAL footage and it indicates that ( according to the Helmet-Cam’s onboard clock ) the original video was created a 4:33.12 PM on June 30, 2013.
The _README.TXT file that someone from the SAIT wrote acknowledges that this TIME is WRONG and is actually about ‘6 minutes’ behind the REAL time… but my point here would be this…
That ‘Date Modified’ EXIF value is NOWHERE in the EXIF metadata of the copy of this video that was ‘released’ by the SAIT.
That indicates there has always been some OTHER ‘original’ raw-footage file that contained the correct ‘June 30, 2013’ EXIF data for the ‘Create’ and ‘Modified’ EXIF header fields.
Here is the complete EXIF metadata embedded in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was released by the SAIT and is sitting in the online Dropbox…
————————————————————————
File Name: M2U00265.mp4
Directory: C:/HelmetCamVideo (Audio of GMH)
File Size: 86 MB
File Modification Date/Time: 2014:01:14 21:42:06-06:00
File Access Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Creation Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Permissions: rw-rw-rw-
File Type: MP4
MIME Type: video/mp4
Major Brand: MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14]
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: mp42, isom, avc1
Movie Data Size: 89614927
Movie Data Offset: 168
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Time Scale: 90000
Duration: 0:07:49
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Track Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 0:07:49
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 853
Image Height: 480
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: avc1
Source Image Width: 720
Source Image Height: 480
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Compressor Name: JVT/AVC Coding
Bit Depth: 24
Color Representation: nclc 6 1 6
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 32:27
Video Frame Rate: 29.958
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Media Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Media Time Scale: 48000
Media Duration: 0:07:49
Media Language Code: und
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 48000
Track 2 Name: Stereo
Handler Type: Metadata
Encoder: HandBrake 0.9.9 2013051800
Avg Bitrate: 1.53 Mbps
Image Size: 853×480
Rotation: 0
————————————————————————
One final NOTE…
The Creation DATE for this file that ended up being released by the SAIT to ‘InvestigativeMedia’ was made a full WEEK AFTER the copy of the video that was released to the MEDIA.
The SAIT released some ‘copy’ of this original ‘Helmet Cam’ video footage to the general MEDIA on Friday, December 13, 2013.
The ‘Creation Date’ for this copy that was released to FOIA / FOIL requests was made a WEEK LATER on Friday, December 20, 2013.
Strange.
Indicates even MORE differences between what was initially released to the media and what was then sent out in response to FOIA / FOIL requests.
Awesome research, thank you!!
I’m tripping over this:
“File Modification Date/Time: 2014:01:14 21:42:06-06:00
File Access Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Creation Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00”
What does that mean?
Marti.. those particiular fields in the EXIF data mean nothing. They will ALWAYS represent simply the moment that particular copy of that bodyset was saved to disk and/or unzipped.
All you are seeing there is proof that I, myself, downloaded a fresh copy of the online video just prior to the posting of the other ‘original’ EXIF’ data that is embedded in the data.
Got it, thx! That’s what I was sorta kinda thinking……
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
Though it has always seemed a little strange that the Helmet-Cam actually just ‘starts up’ in the MIDDLE of that conversation that John Burfiend was having ( with SOMEONE? ) where he is then saying “It’s gonna be hard on us with that valley and all that smoke… but we’ll do the best we can”… it could also be said that it has always been a little strange that Aaron Hulburd would just sort of ‘reach up’ and turn his Helmet-Cam on with his hand when his helmet was already on his head.
Depending on what kind of Helmet-Camera it was ( no details have ever been released about that, either )… it would be more likely that if we had always been seeing the full video that first we would see some ‘garbage’ as Hulburd took his Helmet OFF… turned the camera ON… and then put it back ON his head again.
That is, in fact, exactly the way we see Hulburd turn his Helmet-Camera OFF.
The video ENDS with Hulburd not simply reaching up to turn that Helmet-Camera OFF… we actually see him take his helmet OFF, place it on top of his truck, and only THEN does he reach to the Helmet and turn the camera OFF ( If that really was the END of that video ).
If there really are even just 120 seconds MORE video at the START of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video… then we should also be hearing that reported ‘callout’ from Eric Marsh on the A2G channel where he supposedly tells ‘Bravo 33’… “That’s exactly where we want the retardant”.
It is still perfectly possible that even that conversation we DO hear at the beginning of that part of the Helmet-Cam that WAS released is simply the END of the conversation that Burfiend actually had with Eric Marsh starting 120 seconds earlier at 1637.
Burfiend has always been telling SOMEONE “We’ll do the best we can but it’s gonna be hard on us”.
We have never known WHO that really WAS he was saying that too.
It COULD have been Eric Marsh.
The Key to all this extra investigation Information that was collected but not released
is the law suits.
If the helmet cam or other video/audio is out there and collected in the investigation
if it is not damaging to the person or persons named in the suit then it would be subject to release before the law suit goes to court.
Prescott and Marsh/Steed are not named in the Families Law Suit.
ADOSH could release additional investigative information collected. It is possible they have received further information sense there original investigation that they did not have in the original investigation. We have or WTKTT has found a lot that was not released in the first investigation or the State did not receive in there’s
I think we will see a lot more coming out soon I hope.
Both sides should have provided names and all information they plan to use in the Law suit for each other and the court by now. The investigators will have released all of the evidence collected to the Attorneys by now as well.
Sooner or later we will get the facts.
Reply to Bob Powers post October 12, 2014 at 7:21 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> The Key to all this extra investigation Information that was
>> collected but not released is the law suits.
Yes… but there is also something else very important happening right now that would explain ADOSH, themselves, trying to investigate even further and seek even NEW evidence.
Arizona Forestry has officially ‘challenged’ their findings.
AZF has requested an official ‘review’ of the original ADOSH findings which starts with a ‘hearing’ in front of the standard ADOSH review board to even determine if there is any validity to the challenge of the findings.
Mr. Dougherty has already told us that initial ‘challenge hearing’ is in November ( the 17th ). It isn’t showing up yet on ADOSH’s own PUBLIC calendar or schedule… but the closer we get to it… it WILL appear there and it SHOULD actually be ‘open to the public’ unless they decide to go into ‘executive session’ to discuss the challenge.
In the meantime… you can bet that all the ADOSH investigators are also working as hard as they can to review their original evidence AND discover NEW evidence that would support the already-issued ONE Willful and TWO Serious violations ( $70,000 + 2 times $7,000 = $84,000 ).
And there was a LOT that ADOSH didn’t know, first time around.
Arizona Forestry was making it as hard as they could for them to even have all the evidence THEY had… and then they turn around and say that ADOSH’s findings were ‘not substantiated by evidence’. Nice try, AZF.
Just one example: The SAIT made it as difficult as possible for anyone to even discern from THEIR publicly released FOIA / FOIL material that Bea Day team off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( all from Prescott ) were even THERE in Yarnell that day… much less playing a KEY ROLE in the capture of radio traffic and the actual ground search mission that discovered the bodies.
ADOSH never interviewed any of these men… because they really were not even sufficiently informed ( by AZ Forestry ) of their presence or their involvement.
They were not just ‘bystanders’ that afternoon.
Between their activities on Shrine road ( we still don’t even know what these three ‘freelancers’ were even doing there or who sent them to the Shrine area and for what purpose ), their witnessing of the FF evacuations from the Youth Camp, their capture of critical deployment-related radio traffic, and their direct involvement in the ground rescue mission that ended up at the deployment site itself… that makes these men KEY WITNESSES that ADOSH never even had the chance to talk to because they didn’t even really know they were THERE that afternoon.
That’s just ONE example of how the SAIT was making it hard for ADOSH to do a complete job in their original investigation.
So yes… the ‘discovery’ phase of the civil litigation is ongoing… but so is the ‘extra investigation’ on the part of ADOSH because their own findings are being officially ‘challenged’.
It’s really hard to understand Arizona Forestry’s ‘strategy’ here.
If they really do just want this to ‘go away’ and have everyone just ‘move along’… they have screwed up pretty badly.
ADOSH was basically ‘done investigating’ before they even finished their first round of interviews. The ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) interview alone actually has enough evidence in it to justify all THREE of the ‘citations’ that ADOSH eventually issued.
Once they had arrived at those THREE citations ( ONE Willful and TWO Serious ) and realized they had enough evidence to peg the meter on their own maximum fines that could be imposed… they really had no incentive to keep digging to find ALL the evidence and/or ALL the ‘points of failure’ in Yarnell that weekend.
Well… now they do.
By CHALLENGING their findings… Arizona Forestry simply gave ADOSH all the justification they needed to allocate more time and resources to investigating the incident even FURTHER and try to ‘discover’ things they might not have even known before.
NOTE: There are even a few emails in ADOSH FOIA / FOIL release that show ADOSH lead Marshall Krotenberg acknowledging that they already had all the evidence they need to issue those THREE citations and call it a day. The additional $23,000 times 19 penalties were also already justified and ‘at the max’ even with the evidence they DID have. So even ADOSH knew they had ‘arrived’ at basically being able to ‘throw the book’ at Arizona Forestry before they had even completed all their scheduled interviews.
I’m not sure Arizona Forestry thought this through.
If they really did just want this to ‘go away’ and have people ‘move along’ with their own explanation of “We’ll never know what really happened”…
…then they should have just paid the fines.
Even the $84,000 for the ONE Willful and TWO Serious violations was/is going to be just ‘funny money’. The only thing that will even happen there is that money simply ‘transfers’ from one Arizona State ‘budget’ account to another. Basically… Arizona just takes one pile of $84,000 worth of taxpayer dollars and ‘moves’ it from one set of State ‘books’ ( AZF ) to another ( ADOSH ).
The 19 times $23,000 death benefit payments WOULD actually leave the Arizona State coffers and end up ‘with the families’ ( most of whom are just Arizona taxpayers, anyway )…. but the $84,000 was/is never going to ‘leave the State bank’, so to speak.
So, on one hand, it really is hard to understand Arizona Forestry’s strategy.
On the other hand… perhaps it is quite obvious.
The civil lawsuits are BASED on the ADOSH findings ( not the SAIR ).
Arizona Forestry’s first ( and best ) option for fighting the civil litigation is to actually WEAKEN, or even NEGATE the ADOSH findings.
Hence… the challenge of the findings.
If they can get ANY of the findings to be ‘mitigated’ or even ‘withdrawn’.. .then they stand a MUCH better chance in civil court.
But I still think the Arizona Attorney General’s office has screwed up in their ‘advisement’ to AZF. I think they forgot that it *might* get even WORSE for them if ADOSH keeps ‘digging’ and finds out things were even more screwed up in Yarnell that weekend then even their initial investigation revealed.
If Arizona Forestry really wanted to ‘make it all go away’ and have people ‘move along’ without ever really knowing what happened in Yarnell…
…they should have just paid the fines and ‘settled’ the suits.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> If the helmet cam or other video/audio is out there and collected
>> in the investigation… if it is not damaging to the person or persons
>> named in the suit then it would be subject to release before the
>> law suit goes to court.
>> Prescott and Marsh/Steed are not named in the Families Law Suit.
I have said before that given the circumstances NOW ( and the list of defendants named or not named in the civil lawsuits )… it would behoove BOTH sides of the courtroom to know the TRUTH about what happened in Yarnell for that entire weekend.
I believe the plaintiffs ( the families ) decided not to name Prescott or Willis or the estate of Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed for TWO reasons.
1) Prescott DOES have that ‘limited liability’ ‘get out of responsibility free’ card as related to worker’s comp and the inherent ‘statuatory limitations’ there when it comes to being held responsible for deaths in the workplace involving Prescott employees OR the decisions their own employees make. It would have been a VERY tough road to go to try and override that ‘get out of responsibility free’ card Prescott could play and the attorneys for the families rightly advised their clients of this fact.
2) The families themselves probably weren’t interested in ‘going after’ anyone on the Granite Mountain crew or even the City of Prescott. They DO want to know ‘what really happened’… but probably the majority of them just didn’t want to include Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Darrell Willis… or any of the other ‘chain of command’ from Prescott in the litigation,. The language of the lawsuits themselves goes out of its way to PRAISE the Granite Mountain Hotshots. It didn’t have to… so that probably represents the feelings of a majority of the plaintiffs that they ever put that language in the suit itself.
So the PLAINTIFFS need/want to know the full TRUTH because that is actually stated in their filings. It is one of the stated REASONS they felt they had to file the suits in the first place. They really, truly DO want to know ‘exactly what happened’ in Yarnell that weekend and Arizona Forestry (apparently) does NOT.
The DEFENDANTS need/want to know the full TRUTH because their strategy is probably to deflect blame away from the ‘named defendants’ onto people/organizations that are NOT ‘named defendants’.
In other words… if Arizona Forestry can’t get the ADOSH findings mitigated ( or negated ) then the backup plan might be to throw Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed and/or the entire Prescott Wildland Division under the bus… but in order to do THAT… they, also, really DO need to know what REALLY happened that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> ADOSH could release additional investigative information
>> collected. It is possible they have received further information
>> sense there original investigation that they did not have in the
>> original investigation.
Yes. See above. Arizona Forestry themselves gave ADOSH all the incentive they needed to allocate more resources to CONTINUING the investigation the moment they officially ‘challenged’ their ‘original investigation’ and actually said in their own ‘letter of challenge’ that the reason they were issuing the ‘challenge’ itself is because THEY ( AZF ) felt the ADOSH findings were (quote) “not based on substantive evidence”.
So one Arizona State Agency that seems to have been actually withholding ‘evidence’ is now accusing another Arizona State Agency of arriving at false conclusions because they didn’t have enough evidence.
Good luck with THAT argument.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> We have or WTKTT has found a lot that was not released
>> in the first investigation or the State did not receive in there’s.
>> I think we will see a lot more coming out soon I hope.
Probably so.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Both sides should have provided names and all information
>> they plan to use in the Law suit for each other and the court
>> by now.
Normally… yes… but I still think the Arizona Attorney General’s office is advising Arizona Forestry that their best bet is to FIRST see if they can get the ADOSH findings ‘mitigated’ or even ‘negated’. THAT will really affect their strategy in the civil litigations… so I will bet Arizona Forestry is really holding back on that normal ‘discovery’ phase of the civil litigation until they find out what happens with their ADOSH ‘challenge’.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The investigators will have released all of the evidence
>> collected to the Attorneys by now as well.
One would hope so… but the ‘behind-the-scenes gamesmanship’ on the part of Arizona Forestry could very well be ‘off the charts’ on this one. They could still be trying to “hold their cards close to their chest” until they see if they can knock down any of the ADOSH findings.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Sooner or later we will get the facts.
There really is no doubt about that.
I wish Arizona Forestry would realize this fact and just ‘come clean’.
It might make a horrible headline for them for everyone to someday learn they have actually always been withholding HUGE amounts of evidence related to this incident… but in the end… telling the TRUTH is always the way to go. Even if there really is NOT much they have ever been ‘withholding’ it would still behoove them to deal with this lingering impression on the part of both the families AND the ‘public’ that they ARE ‘hiding things’. A lot of people have lost a lot of faith in this completely taxpayer-funded agency known as ‘Arizona Forestry’… and they have a lot of ‘repair’ work to do.
If there really ARE upwards of 42 to 43 minutes of additional Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet-Cam’ video… then that means we COULD actually get ‘answers’ to some ‘mysteries’ that are already in the known evidence record going back as far as 1556 or 1555 ( 3:55 PM ).
That would cover the time even BEFORE Steed and the crew left the safe black and also covers the ENTIRE range or time where Arizona Forestry has tried to get us to believe there was a ‘communications blackout’ with Granite Mountain.
Everyone knows (now) that there was no such 37 minute ‘blackout’ as Arizona Forestry was trying to get us to believe at first.
People WERE communicating directly with Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and Granite Mountain during this critical time they were ‘moving’.
If Aaron Hulburd was scanning all of the same TAC and A2G channels he was in the part of the Helmet-Cam that we can ALREADY hear then we might actually finally have ‘call signs’ and clarifying como for all the following ‘mysteries’….
1) How did Eric Marsh really RESPOND to his direct supervisor’s ORDER to ‘Hunker and be safe’? Did he AGREE to do so… or did he, right then and there, actually say he had no intentions of having himself or his resources ( Steed and the other 17 men ) doing any such thing?
2) Exactly WHO was receiving these vague “We are headed to the ranch’ transmissions that remain a pile of confusion in the SAIR report? What, exactly, was Marsh telling these people and WHY did they not fully understand he meant he was going SOUTH to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’?
3) Did ‘Bravo 33’ really go check on their location, or not? This is still totally vague and unresolved in both the SAIR and ADOSH reports.
4) At 4:16 PM… is that really John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ telling someone (WHO?) on the ground that he DID see GM ‘behind those hills there’ and that they kept saying they were ‘comfortable’ but he didn’t find that ‘credible’ so he asked this same SOMEONE on the ground to “Ask them if DIVS is actually WITH them, or not”?
5) Again… at 4:16 PM… WHO is that person who actually calls directly to ‘Granite Mountain’ and asks them what their STATUS is… but DIVSA Eric Marsh intecepts that callout and answers it before the actual acting Superintendent of Granite Mountain ( Jesse Steed ) had a chance to respond?
6) What ELSE was said circa 4:16 to 4:18 over the TAC channels that is obviously there in the Panebaker videos but there is too much foreground noise to make out what is being said?
7) At exactly 4:27 PM… WHO was Eric Marsh now ‘reporting to’ and assuring them that Granite Mountain was ‘on their way’ ( and NOT in the safe black ) and they were ‘coming from the heel of the fire’? Is that person the same person who seems to be urging them to HURRY at the start of the same YARNELL-GAMBLE video where we definitely hear Eric Marsh reporting that GM was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore?
8) WHO was John Burfiend really talking to at the very start of the part of the Helmet-Cam video we can already hear? WHY was Burfiend saying “We’ll do the best we can but it’s gonna be tough on us because of that valley and all that smoke”? Was it Eric Marsh? Was it OPS1 Todd Abel?
9) WAS there really an EMERGENCY call on a TAC channel PRIOR to the 3 MAYDAY calls on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel that we can already hear in the part of the Helmet-Cam already released? If so… WHO was this EMERGENCY callout actually directed to and WHY does it seem like even THAT callout went unanswered that day?
That isn’t even a complete list of the ‘mysteries’ in the critical timeframe that still need to be resolved.
ALSO NOTE: If Aaron Hulburd actually kept his Helmet Camera running for LONGER than it would seem ( or turned it back on again )… did he capture the ADDITIONALY callouts from Eric Marsh that have been reported? As late as 1648 ( a full NINE minutes after the initial A2G MAYDAY from Steed ) Helicopter ‘Five Kiloi Alpha’ was telling Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ that he though ‘Division A just called you’. Does that really mean that Eric Marsh was still alive as late as 1648 ( 4:48 PM ) that day?
The SAIT has always tried to establish that the men died within 2 minutes of the last transmission from Marsh and is the reason they ‘had no other choices to make’.
If that really was Eric Marsh still trying to contact ‘Bravo 33’ as late as 1648… then that changes all the SAIT findings.
Followup…
One of the biggest ‘mysteries’ that still needs to eventually ‘resolve’ is whether there really was that ‘argument’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed about “which way to go”, as reported by the head of the SAIT investigation himself ( Mike Dudley ) to a room full of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014.
The reason I left that out of the ‘short’ list of mysteries that *might* get resolved with some additional Helmet-Cam footage is because Aaron Hulburd did NOT seem to have Granite Mountain’s private intra-crew frequency programmed into his radio.
We do NOT know, for sure, if he did or not.
He actually MIGHT have.
Aaron Hulburd was from Prescott ( along with his other off-the-radar buddies Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
ALL of these men knew Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Darrel Willis, Granite Mountain, Tony Sciacca, Marty Cole, etc. etc.
They were part of the ‘Prescott gang’ that was all over the place in Yarnell that day.
Aaron Hulburd ( and ALL these men ) had also worked other fires along with Marsh, Steed and GM… even as late as a week before Yarnell on the ‘Doce’ fire near Prescott.
So ANY of this ‘Prescott gang’ ( Aaron Hulburd included ) *might* have actually had the GM intra-crew programmed into their radios.
What I mean is…
Just because we don’t hear any GM intra-crew radio traffic coming over Aaron Hulburd’s BK radio during the part of the Helmet-Cam that has already been released doesn’t mean we *might* not actually hear some of that GM intra-crew traffic in OTHER parts of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam footage ( if that footage really exists ).
So the alleged ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed *might* actually have been captured by Aaron Hulburd.
It’s possible.
WTKTT–
My summation of the State is if they can prove that Marsh and no one else caused the fatal decision then they lose all blame for the Families Multi Million dollar clams. If they have that evidence in the Head cam Video or a copied video came that is or was in passion of a family member as we discussed a couple of months ago. Then they may have enough evidence to switch the blame and as you say throw Marsh/Steed, Willis and Prescott under the Bus. Their disclaimer of liability may not stand up in court.
I have seen a lot of cities sued here in Idaho never herd of a disclaimer of liability for their employees, but then Arizona is a different Cat.
Thanks for reminding me of the Arizona Forestry challenge I forgot about that. That could have triggered a whole bunch of investigation activity.
We may be just hearing the beginning of additional information to be released.
The Original investigation will prove to be the alkali’s heal for the State Forestry and fall back on the SAIT shoulders for a terrible investigation done to fast and a lot of cover up to protect who ever.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 12, 2014 at 2:41 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My summation of the State is if they can prove that
>> Marsh and no one else caused the fatal decision
>> then they lose all blame for the Families Multi
>> Million dollar clams.
That is NOT the case.
At 10:30 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013, someone named Eric Marsh officially became ‘Division A’ and a direct member of the State of Arizona’s fire management team and a direct ‘contracted employee’ of the State of Arizona. His appointment to that fire management position was fully known and fully approved by the other State of Arizona managers/employees that were also working for the State of Arizona in Yarnell that day.
Actually… EVERYONE who was working the Yarnell fire that day can be legally considered an ‘Employee of the State of Arizona’ but even if you could nitpick an Engine or a crew and their actual ‘contractor/subcontractor’ legal status… certainly the MANAGEMENT team itself all had that ‘official’ employment status that day.
The State of Arizona OWNED that fire.
They were the top-level EMPLOYER that day.
They officially ( and legally ) entered into what is called an ‘assumption of risk’ situation and were then totally responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the safety of everyone working there.
So just ‘throwing Eric Marsh ( their own Division A manager ) under the bus’ probably isn’t going to help them.
Indeed… if Arizona Forestry can PROVE ( with evidence that maybe only they still even know about ) that the ‘negligence’ that led to the deaths in their workplace was the sole authorship and responsibility of their own ‘Division A’ employee… then they have basically just nailed THEMSELVES to the wall, anyway.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they have that evidence in the Head cam Video
>> or a copied video came that is or was in passion
>> of a family member as we discussed a couple of
>> months ago. Then they may have enough evidence
>> to switch the blame and as you say throw
>> Marsh/Steed, Willis and Prescott under the Bus.
Yes. They *MAY* actually already have that kind of evidence and regardless of what I just said above… the ‘backup’ plan might be to try and throw Eric Marsh ( and or Jesse Steed ) ‘under the bus’ and deflect responsibility onto people not named in the lawsuit.
However… that is probably only the BACKUP plan.
The PRIMARY plan is most likely to still prove that NO ONE ( not even their own Division A employee ) committed any ‘negligence’ that would get around the statutory limitations of Workers Comp which say that UNLESS there is a certain level of ‘negligence’ involved… the lawsuits are invalid and the ‘Exclusive Result’ clauses and compensation of regular Workers Compensation Insurance must be considered by all parties to be the ‘end of the story’.
I’ve tried to explain this before… but let me try again.
Some States have granted themselves ( and ALL State employees ) absolute immunity under the ‘Sovereign Immunity’ laws. It means you can’t sue any State Agency for ‘wrongful death’ no matter what happens.
Arizona is NOT one of those States.
In the case of Yarnell… the State of Arizona was simply the defacto ‘Employer’ on June 30, 2013 and can most certainly be sued just like any other ‘Employer’ if really, really bad things happen and it can be proven it was due to negligence on their part or on the part of any one of their ’employees’.
The only distinction the State of Arizona makes in its own laws about whether you are suing a State Agency or a Private Company ( or a private person ) is that any ‘wrongful death’ cases must be filed within ONE year of the incident instead of TWO years if the defendant is NOT a ‘Public Entity’.
That’s why the families had to file the ‘wrongful death’ suits in late June… just before the one year anniversary of Yarnell. They didn’t have TWO years like they would if the ‘defendants’ weren’t ‘public agencies’.
The bottom line here is that it all comes down to ‘negligence in a workplace’ and WHO was ultimately responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the people hired to work in it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their disclaimer of liability may not stand up in court.
If the State of Arizona thought there was no liability on their part I don’t think they wouldn’t even be challenging the ADOSH findings.
The fines imposed by ADOSH are really just peanuts compared to what they might be ‘on the hook’ for when the dust clears.
The reason they HAVE to challenge the ADOSH findings is because they KNOW they are ‘liable’ here.
Those ADOSH findings established both the ‘Willful’ and the ‘Serious’ acts of NEGLIGENCE that were required in order for the civil litigation to proceed. The ADOSH report is what lifted all of this out of the normal ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Workers Compensation Insurance… so they HAVE to attack those findings.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> I have seen a lot of cities sued here in Idaho never
>> herd of a disclaimer of liability for their employees,
>> but then Arizona is a different Cat.
The ‘get out of responsibility free’ card I was referring to above is nothing more than this business with Workers Compensation Insurance and that ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause that is in it.
Prescott has ( in their back pocket ) what any other Municipality or Employer who is using ‘Workers Compensation Insurance’ has.
If something really bad happens to an ’employee’… the ONLY time civil litigation like ‘wrongful death’ will be allowed to proceed is if the plaintiff’s can prove that some level of ‘negligence’ was involved that then negates the ‘statutory limitations’ and ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clauses and compensation built into Workers Compensation itself.
The ADOSH report did just that… but we are still talking about an ‘unsafe workplace’ and some proven ‘negligence’ in that workplace on the part of an EMPLOYER.
Prescott’s ‘get out of responsibility free’ card is really nothing more than them being able to prove that THEY were NOT the actual ‘Employers’ that day nor were they responsible for the safety of that workplace down there in Yarnell.
The lawyers for the plaintiffs pretty much wisely advised their clients what a hard road it would be to name the City of Prescott in the lawsuits for what happened in Yarnell itself.
Whatever Prescott ’employees’ were in Yarnell that day were now actually officially ’employed’ by the State of Arizona and it was Arizona Forestry that had taken on the ‘assumption of risk’ and was now responsible for the safety of that (particular) workplace.
To try and hold Prescott liable… the lawyers probably advised their clients that this would mean having to prove the kind of ‘negligence’ that they WOULD be ultimately responsible for such as poor training under their own programs or allowing unqualified people to be contracted out at levels they shouldn’t have been… or to somehow prove that THEY ( as Employers ) KNEW about some kind of ongoing ‘safety issues’ with Granite Mountain and they ( as their ongoing Employer ) weren’t doing anything about it.
That is the ‘hard road to go’. That would get really, really nasty and involve a lot of people testifying about the entire Prescott Wildland Division and its programs and employees and such.
So the families decided to ‘not go there’ ( even if there are things there that COULD be proved about Granite Mountain being some kind of ‘accident waiting to happen’ and even the City knew about it but was letting them continue to take contracts, anyway ).
The families decided to just focus on what happened on June 30, 2013, and where the ‘negligence’ was on THAT day… in THAT particular workplace where they all died.
That doesn’t mean that anything and everything to do with Granite Mountain’s training and the way that program was being run will NOT come out during the litigation. It still might. It just means that the lawyers were being honest with the families about Prescott having this self-proclaimed ‘get out of responsibility free’ card because of the rules and regs of Workers Compensation.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Thanks for reminding me of the Arizona Forestry
>> challenge I forgot about that. That could have triggered a
>> whole bunch of investigation activity.
I’m sure it has.
Marshall Krotenberg is no wilting flower himself.
He’s a career safety professional and he is not going to ‘lay down’ for anyone who disagrees with his findings. He prides himself on ‘getting it right’ and he believes he already HAS so I’m sure he’s preparing for this ‘challenge’ from Arizona Forestry as best as he can.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> We may be just hearing the beginning of additional
>> information to be released.
We still don’t know if this ‘challenge hearing’ is going to be ‘behind closed doors’ or not.
I imagine it probably will be. ADOSH will probably go into ‘executive session’ for that during their PUBLIC meeting and then the only way to see what ‘additional evidence’ was being presented by Arizona Forestry will be to go the FOIA / FOIL route.
Whatever is presented by AZF in that ‘challenge hearing’ WILL, eventually, be available via FOIA / FOIL and Arizona Public Records laws… but maybe not right away.
I just think its going to be ironic if the ‘new evidence’ that Arizona Forestry says it wants to present to help mitigate or negate the ADOSH findings ends up just being the very same evidence they were SUPPOSED to be sharing with ADOSH in the first place.
The whole thing could actually backfire on them.
ADOSH might be busy discovering ( right now ) that things were even MORE screwed up in Yarnell than even they realized during their FIRST investigation and whatever ‘evidence’ AZF presents at the hearing might be countered with even MORE evidence of ‘negligence’ than ADOSH even had the first time around.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The Original investigation will prove to be the alkali’s
>> heal for the State Forestry and fall back on the
>> SAIT shoulders for a terrible investigation done
>> to fast and a lot of cover up to protect who ever.
I still think some Arizona Forestry people are GOING to end up losing their jobs over all this… and they probably SHOULD.
It has been a botch job since day one… and the good taxpayers of Arizona deserve better.
WTKTT you make a compelling argument how ever the other side of the coin is as well quite interesting.
The big reason for not finding fault in the current investigations that were directed by the Fed’s. is because of what has happened to several lower Supervisors. Crew Bosses or Strike team leaders, Foreman or Superintendents, Division Supervisors have in fact been taken to court in liability suits for the decisions they made that caused injury or Fatalities. The over head have very seldom been held accountable for the Safety infractions committed by subordinates.
While I agree with you that the State was in charge and all were state employees. Marsh weather Division or crew leader made the on ground decisions unless some one else at the overhead level ordered him to do something the buck still stops there. In the past that is where the finding of fault has rested and why so many fire overhead have started carrying insurance and Lawyering up.
This is maybe one of the first where the State or a Federal fire organization was found responsible for the miss management by Overhead. That’s what they are fighting now. The finding of responsibility has always fallen on those on the ground closest to the decision making that become responsible for the accident.
So the jury decides the fate of who was guilty.
Reply to Bob Powers post
on October 13, 2014 at 7:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This is maybe one of the first where the
>> State or a Federal fire organization was
>> found responsible for the miss management
>> by Overhead. That’s what they are fighting now.
Copy that.
Speaking of ‘Federal’…
If there actually is more Helmet Cam footage that precedes the part that has been released… then ONE of the reasons the ‘cut’ comes where it does could have something to do with the FEDS.
If there are even just 90 or 120 seconds more video on the FRONT of what has been released… not only should we finally be able to hear the CALL SIGN of WHO Burfiend was really ‘reporting’ to at the start of that video… then we should ALSO actually SEE Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Brown right there at that location in their UTV talking to either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… or any combination of those men.
The unredacted part of BR Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log confirms that as he and Frisby were leaving the Shrine Road Youth camp and evacuating. They stopped for TWO minutes right there in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot ( where Aaron Hulburd is standing when the Helmet-Cam begins ) and Captain Brown says…
“We talked with ( REDACTED ) and shared what intel we had.”
The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data backs this up exactly. The tracking data does STOP for 2 minutes right there in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot just 90 to 120 seconds before the ‘Helmet-Cam’ video begins.
Since the FEDS have been diligently blocking ALL access to ‘Blue Ridge’ and they wouldn’t give ADOSH permission to interview them at all… it could also very well be that the FEDS were insisting that no ‘recordings’ of the images of Brian Frisby or Captain Brown ever be released in any of the PUBLIC or FOIA material.
So whoever was ‘edting’ the original footage of this Helmet Cam video MAY have been under instructions to make sure the moments when Frisby and Brown were visible ( and we can possibly even hear this ‘intel’ report they gave ) were edited OUT of any release of any portion of that Helmet-Cam.
When the part of the Helmet-Cam that HAS been publicly released STARTS… we could probably literally see Brian Frisby and Captain Brown ‘driving away’ to the east on Shrine road in the UTV if Hulburd had been facing the other way when that video begins.
The timing really is THAT close.
Frisby and Brown were JUST THERE and giving that ‘intel’ report to Clawson / Hulburd / Yowell.
If more Helmet-Cam video DOES emerge… it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if even that portion where we should be able to both SEE and HEAR Frisby and Brown ends up ‘edited out’ of even that additional footage.
WTKTT
Although I am not a lawyer and could very well be wrong here goes…
My understanding of the freedom of information on video and audio tapes is they can be requested in full with out any removal of information if they were made during the incident by private parties or in what I have seen police mounted cameras. Those are subject to the freedom of information by News and other sources which can release them.
I do not believe the Federal Government can stop or remove any statements on the tapes of Federal Employees. The Video and Audio belongs to non Federal employees and ADOSH has a complete copy if requested it may have gone to court for clarification but I believe there is no legal cause to not release the entire Helmet Cam video. If it was requested under the freedom of information act by who ever then it will be released by the direction of the courts.
As a police officer I have seen dash cam video released to the media on a number of occasions both good and bad for the officers. But never refused by the police or courts.
Reply to Bob Powers post
on October 14, 2014 at 7:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If it was requested under the freedom of
>> information act by who ever then it will be
>> released by the direction of the courts.
Sometimes NOT.
The keyword is ‘courts’.
Every FOIA / FOIL law and, indeed, even Arizona’s own ‘Access to Public Documents’ legislation has ‘exceptions’ that can be claimed by the holder of the information in their possession for NOT releasing it.
The most obvious ones are always related to ‘personal privacy’ such as never releasing someone’s banking information or even their NAMES if the holder of the information starts claiming that will violate their ‘privacy’.
Indeed… the FEDS have already done this with regards to the Yarnell information.
The FEDS released DVD copies of the Panebaker Aerial Study that had every single call-sign ‘redacted’ with TONES that someone manually inserted over the radio traffic.
The only things they missed were when Thomas French was using someone’s NAME like ‘Rusty’ or ‘Kevin’ or ‘Jack”.
‘Rusty’ was obviously ‘Rusty Warbis’ in ‘Bravo 3’ and even during ADOSH’s interview with Warbis and Lenmark… Rusty Warbis made a big stink about his NAME being left in those Air-To-Air channel recordings. I guess ( at the time ) he had no idea his ADOSH interview itself was also going to (eventually) ‘hit the streets’ because even all that is information held by a taxpayer funded agency.
The bottom line here is that both the FEDS and the STATE can withhold just about anything they want and then try and claim they are allowed to under the standard ‘exceptions’… even if that explanation amounts to just ‘mental gymnastics’.
It is then ( as you stated above ) up to a ‘judge’ to decide if they can continue withholding information.
Example: This has already happened with regards to Yarnell. The Arizona Republic ( and some other Garner Media outlets ) made the proper and formal ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests for both the Toxiciology and the Autopsy reports from the Yarnell incident.
A huge stink was raised with even the families chiming in with letters saying that only THEY should ever know what was in those reports.
Arizona Forestry got a judge to go on record saying he would BLOCK that request to the hilt if it was pursued… so ‘Garner Media’ officially withdrew the request(s).
At first they tried to change it to just wanting to see the ‘Toxicology’ reports just to make sure someone wasn’t DRUNK or “high as a kite” out there that day… but AZF made it clear they considered the Toxicology reports totally equal to the Autopsy reports and so Garner Media ended up dropping BOTH requests.
There has never been any explanation what ‘exceptions’ are being claimed by the FEDS for ALL of those ‘extended’ redactions in the Blue Ridge Unit logs.
I can still see them claiming the ‘prviacy’ exception with regards to NAMES and them trying to make it impossible to tell WHICH Unit Log belongs to WHICH BR person…
…but there has NEVER been any explanation for all the OTHER extensive redactions that seem to be purposely just blocking what radio traffic these men heard or what was said in conversations.
ADOSH was really pissed about that… and for all we know they have been pursuing this with the FEDS now that Arizona Forestry has given them every incentive in the world to do a SECOND investigation and still try to find out the TRUTH about what happened there that day.
Ditto for the lawyers for the plaintiffs in the lawsuits.
It is OBVIOUS there is some crucial information about what happened there that day sitting right there in the redacted portions of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs.
Actual INTERVIEWS with these men ( by someone other than Arizona Forestry ) would still be the better way to go… but just getting ‘original’ copies of their own ‘Unit Logs’ would provide a lot of critical information.
I am SURE that is going to happen, sooner or later.
As for material that is in the hands of a ‘private’ person who doesn’t really give a crap what Arizona Forestry or the US Forestry thinks… that’s both simpler and more complicated ( legally speaking ) at the same time.
Yes… anyone who has anything they want the world to see can just dump it in public at any time…
…but the State of Arizona and/or the FEDS DO still have ‘legal’ options of their own that could get all or part of that information ‘blocked’.
These days… by the time they do that… about a few thousand people will still already have made their own copies of the material and they will never put the ‘cat back in the bag’… but it doesn’t mean they won’t try.
Followup / Correction for the post above.
It was the ‘Arizona Republic’ ( AZREPUBLIC ) and ’12 News’ who made the original requests for the records under Arizona’s ‘Open Records’ laws.
Both are owned by the ‘Gannet’ Media Corporation and not ‘Garner’ as I accidentally typed in the post above.
Question- this new footage…is it raw footage to be released or more bullshit we have seen since day one CREATING the crap I have seen—
If they come out an say it is the full non-touched raw footage than I would listen to it…anything else is not worthy and again does a great disservice to all—
Joy—
My understanding it is the full 43 min. head cam recording no cut no touch up what was recorded at the time that was not released with the first portion.
I have heard this is the Raw footage. Until we can see and hear it none of us should put a final stamp of approval on it as factual evidence.
The real fact is that it dose exist.
Also all the redacted statements that we have not been privy too will sooner or later be part of the record if this ends up in court.
There is some serious stuff that we have not been allowed to see yet that may change the entire story.
Blue Ridge statements, radio traffic, head cam footage and the argument as well as some people who were never interviewed. We as onlookers have been left in the dark with a lot of unanswered questions. This also includes the families.
More photos surfaced…Kathy H-G of Yarnell lost her home near the Helm’s and this week I began to review her extensive fire photos (WAY TOO MANY) and she has a Blue Ridge in 1 photo and 2 smoke stacks in another. She is willing to help the investigative team so anyone interesting in seeing a few of her photos send Sonny an email at sonnygillyxs@gmail.com and make your own assessments when we send you the photos-
We are doing the GMHS fence event and meeting with some investigative folks today so if delay depends when you email when we forward it to you—
Also very important we have been approached by someone who knew the men and thank us for being out there because it is important, our voice will not end even if people despise us or threaten legal words like injunction when there is no base to make such effort/threat when I was okay by no communication…we will all HEAL from this at different paces but NO WAY will I or should I have to let the men be or MOVE FORWARD…fact is I am moving forward…and in it…it’s NO GOOD to remember 6-28 thru 6-30-13. NOT GOOD! But I have to remember because people will forget what went on but I must remember this—VIVIDLY! or it will keep happening and they do need to change the way they fight wildfires. How many haters come forward this week thinking we need to respect their trauma and how about the people who are with trauma and seek the TRUTH—for the fallen, for all affected by the YHF I will not step down and I will keep exhausting every way and as one grieving person said to me…I am a small involvement in this…who cares…wonderful…the sair can accept their “cast this to the wind” approach but not me. I am going to keep gathering for you all to assess this-
You said, ” there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?”
If I Recall Correctly, I remember those “weird images” being on the video that AZCentral published. I remember that, but I’m not currently looking at it, or have the link for it. It definitely showed the video being “started” as if they were screen-recording it as they started it.
Which, in light of this conversation, begs the question, did AZCentral have the original “unedited” video?
I seriously can’t find that video now.
But I DEFINITELY remember it.
The copy of original ‘Helmet Cam’ footage that was released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013 that had those ‘weird images’ at the start of it was the copy that appeared on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today BLOG post the same day the original was released.
This is the one that actually shows some ‘video controls’ at the start and is obviously a video of someone starting a ‘screen capture’ of some piece of original footage playing in a video player.
That ‘screen capture’ is what ran with Gabbert’s article about the ‘Helmet Cam’ and was also subsequently uploaded to YouTube to the actual ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube channel/account.
That copy of just the FIRST part of the Helmet Cam video that accompanied the Wildfire Today BLOG post was never even the complete footage that was released on December 13, 2013.
‘Wildfire Today’ only chose to ‘screen capture’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the actual full 7 minutes and 49 seconds of the original Helmet-Cam video as released by the SAIT.
Wildfire Today YouTube Video TITLE…
Radio Transmissions from Granite Mountain Hotshots, Yarnell Hill Fire
.Wildfire Today YouTube Video Direct LINK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbrlWTng2JU
This the one that clearly shows someone STARTING the video at a certain point with some kind of video player so this upload to Youtube appears to just be a ‘screen capture’.
.The ‘play’ bar that only appears for a few seconds at the start of the video has the standard ‘video offset’ and ‘video length’ counters on the left and right, respectively.
The ‘video offset’ counter on the left says: 00:02
The ‘video length’ indicator on the right says: 00:03:36
So it would appear that whatever piece of video was about to be ‘screen recorded’ was actually ‘paused’ at 2 seconds into the video before the ‘screen capture’ began and the total length of this ‘video clip’ that was about to be ‘screen captured’ was actually only 3 minutes and 36 seconds.
That means that someone had already ‘chopped’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds off the front of the 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ footage released that same day… and it was THIS ( shorter ) clip from that original footage that they were about to do this ‘screen capture’ on.
The actual length of the resulting ‘screen recording’ that was uploaded to the Wildfire Today YouTube account was 3 minutes and 39 seconds worth of video and it ends WHILE Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were evacuating and BEFORE they reached that second parking spot on Shrine Road.
This ‘screen recorded’ copy of the video actually ends as Hulburd is still traveling EAST on Shrine Road in his truck and right after the following captured radio conversation…
“Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air to Ground”.
It does not actually capture the REPEATED attempts by John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ to contact ‘Division Alpha’ once OPS1 Todd Abel basically had to tell him to get his head out of his ass and actually ORDERED him to respond to those men that were frantically calling him.
The extra 3 seconds ( the discrepancy between the 3:36 length shown in the video bar and the actual 3:39 Youtube video length ) is because the way this person ended the screen recording was to PAUSE the video and then turn off the screen capture. It took them 3 seconds after hitting PAUSE to actually stop the screen capture so the last 3 seconds is just a ‘freeze frame’ of one of the trees seen from Aaron Hulburd’s pickup.
It’s not really clear WHY someone at Wildfire Today felt the need to do a ‘screen recording’ of this short 3 minute and 36 video clip that they obviously already had loaded into some video playery. Maybe they were doing that ‘screen recording’ step just to get it uploaded to YouTube. Maybe that was the only way someone there could figure out how to pull off the YouTube upload, or something.
Here is a direct link to Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG post that this featured this ‘weird’ copy of the original Helmet-Cam SAIT release.
It’s features the same video at the ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube link above and is the one with the ‘weird images’ at the start showing us that this copy of the video was being created using a ‘screen recording’…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/13/video-captures-the-last-radio-transmissions-from-granite-mountain-hotshots/
Marti—–On Air tankers
You are right they are not owned by the agencies–Although MAFF’s Military Air Tankers are owned by the Government and used nation wide in extreme emergencies……
They are set up in IA zones
They are under contract to different agencies and also under interagency coop agreements.
The Contracts are with FS. BLM, and some State Agencies like in Calif.
They are a High Priority resource so getting them at times is difficult.
They also can be moved around quite a bit.
Thanks, Bob, you’re right. I’ve been so focused on the aircraft flying over Yarnell that I wasn’t thinking about the National Guard C-130s with MAFFs.
When that C-130/MAFF crashed in South Dakota in 2012, the crash was investigated by the US Air Force. There was some controversy among fire-fighters about that investigation. Bill Gabbert wrote, soon after about:
“Differences between military and Forest Service accident investigations:
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/11/30/differences-between-military-and-forest-service-investigations/
Again, it’s that whole separation between “Lessons Learned” investigations and “Accountability” investigations.
Along these same lines, that S-2T air tanker that just crashed this afternoon at Yosemite was OWNED, along with 22 others of its kind, by CALFIRE, while also maintained and piloted by Dyncorp.
CALFIRE has a interesting PDF describing their aircraft, both owned by them and contracted by them.
“Firefighting Aircraft Recognition Guide”
http://calfire.ca.gov/communications/downloads/fact_sheets/Aviation_Firefighting_webbooklet.pdf
That will be a NTSB investigation first of all.
My dad, and thus me (who worked for him), was involved in the NTSB investigation of the infamous mid-air explosion of TWA Flight 800 over Moriches, New York in 1996.
So I’m reading, on my ipad via Twitter (so I can’t post the link), “FAA records show the plane is registered to the U.S. Forest Service, which originally provided the plane to Cal Fire…”
I still don’t really understand the relationship between the USFS and CALFIRE.
This article also says, “The missing pilot is an employee of
DynCorp, which provides the pilots for all Cal Fire fixed-wing aircraft and the maintenance for the department’s planes and helicopters…”
This article is called “Air Tanker crashes inYosemite while fighting Dog Rock Fire” via KCRA.com
A lot more interesting Co-op between agencies than when I worked.
The FS and BLM owned some Jumper planes way back did not know they had air tankers registered to them. Cal Fire is a whole nother ball game.
Nice research again your are keeping me up to date now.
I believe there was a large turn over of Federally owned air craft to the FS which in turn were turned over to contractors to be refitted and used as Air Tankers not sure how that all evolved I did not keep any track of it back when. So the FS may have kept the registration for legal purposes as the Government agency.
CAL FIRE
They are the State forestry which split the Fire portion out into a new name several years ago.
They are the State of California Fire department.
In my day they were the California division of Forestry. They have a lot of fire resources for wildland Fire Engines, Inmate crews helicopters and Air tanker contracts. I actually worked for them in 1961 at 17 they hired fire fighters for summer crews.
My Step Brother worked for them out of Visalia Calif. for a Carrier as a Fire employee. They are a very well qualified fire organization
and go way back in California history. Worked with them a lot during my carrier in California back then they also had fire camp facilities as well as cooks some of the best food ever in there fire camps. That was before caterers took over food service in California.
So simply the FS and Cal Fire have co-op agreements with each other in California just like other states have local state agreements.
Just a big wild land fire community a lot of different agencies with the same training requirements which created Incident Command Systems and the change in nomenclature from Fire Boss to Incident commander which covers fire and non fire emergences.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on September 21, 2014 at 11:22 pm
NOTE: This recent reply from Joy Collura on the thread that was discussing whether there were MULTIPLE security camera at the Helms Ranch ( and not just the one on the main gate ) is being brought up here to the top for ‘replies’ since that thread is out of room… and I also didn’t want this to get ‘lost in the weeds’.
Joy Collura wrote…
—————————————————————
On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:03 AM I emailed the Helm’s Ranch Residence-
inquiring and squashing rumors flying in regards to them about us. On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 8:17 PM I received a reply—I will not copy/paste it all but the part that answered my ?—
“I don’t know where these rumors came from, but they are not true. We have never said we were going to sue anyone, or have anyone arrested. Craig Knapp is handling our issues and that is where it stops.”
I hiked that terrain for almost ten years and their property was surrounded by a unique density of plants/flora/boulders…there is alot I have not spoke publicly out of respect that I know THE TOWN reads this site and we seem to be target for silly rumors and rubbish in regards to our hiking folks on the mountain tops—yet there is details to that area that to this day bewilders me that even talking to few I thought could shed an answer—they too are bewildered. How I came up with MORE THAN one camera is this…early on I saw footage somewhere online that said Boulders Ranch footage that did not match entrance so assume there has to be more than one PLUS as the desert walker pioneering Arizona in the modern world I have more than 1 camera glued to my surroundings to get familiar to what wildlife roams as well as what people roam or “thief”…so if common folk me has more than one camera for my adventures…I am sure an established ranch has more than one—I would imagine if it was my home base I would have another camera tucked shooting out towards the hill near their home because there is a trail that is on their unfenced property that leads to the fenced property—Helms own a very wide chunk out there…than its surrounded by State Land and some private properties—
Since I have been told by locals the Helms have not much to say…I thought for a long time how come not our details we shared to SAIR did not make the SAIR so maybe the same happened to the Helm’s too— who knows— If the Helm’s wrote a detailed book on the fire—I would buy it— as well if Bruce, Laura C., Pat and a few others—if they shared their details—I would buy it. I find certain people are extremely important for clarity—also I strongly feel what the lady in the evacuation spoke IS very important and I wish Barb B.- the doctor- could share more but their is confidentiality laws—I am having a man from Milan, Italy sketching out my story and we are going to create a history mural and that will be our memorial marker for that moment—that will be my healing…because it sickens us to hike pass the current memorial for the men in Yarnell as weeds are just ridiculous—they want to have this neat memorial but how many times has Buford or us pulled the weeds there—just seems sad…
—————————————————————
Once again… Thank you, Joy.
We both seem to have witnessed the same thing with regards to assuming there WAS a security camera on the WEST side of the Boulder Springs Ranch in addition to the one covering the main gate.
I, too, am sure I saw some footage appearing on Television that said it was from a security camera at the Boulder Springs Ranch… but it was obviously showing a view to the WEST and not the main gate of the compound.
I have searched everywhere online for this original Media segment that I am sure had a subtitle of “Boulder Springs Ranch Security Footage” showing at the bottom of the screen while the video as playing… but I am unable to find it.
We are also in agreement that it would be very strange if a compound like that really did only have ONE Security Camera that was ONLY covering the electronic gate.
There are also those strange ‘black boxes’ mounted on the corner of the residence itself that are, in fact, pointing to the WEST and ( if they are cameras ) seem to be covering that WEST side of the compound and that other service road entrance.
Those ‘black boxes’ seen in ADOSH photos are NOT lighting fixtures.
I also hope that Lee and DJ Helm someday write a book about their experiences.
It is not everyday you survive a fire the way they did.
I would definitely like to ‘read their story’ someday.
One quick question for you…
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
reply: I tried answering this a few times even earlier today so I am unsure why this is not posting-
I will not ask any questions to the Helms in regards to the fire but I will ask direct ones in regards to rumors on us in regards to them and I did. It was brought to my attention that a rumor about the hikers surfaced last Fall near the time Morgan Loew did his report on us and the sair report came out in regards to a crazy theory that was created and told by the Prescott fire community that Sonny and Joy were contacting/harrassing the GMHS loved ones last Fall saying the men were not actually dead and the findings were drug cartel..
I reckon the concern here was who there felt such depth to create that and why not come to us the source vs making that statement go viral. Anyone I asked today never heard it so nice to see you chum chums out there can say that…there was a few words that came to my attention and those words were ONLY said behind close doors between Sonny and myself so those few words told to us in regards to another topic—NICE! Bug our private camp spots to gain who we are…the information you gain means zip we have been upfront that we are the old married couple (he’s old) (I am married) and we also are like two kids on the trails…we live life unlike others…my husband drops me off on his way to work and picks me up on the way home. I sleep over on times we have early morning stuff. We hike and we go to the library yet our thing is to pioneer and explore…so waste your time and energy trying to dig deeper and you will see no cobwebs or skeletons in our neck of the woods. Sad how people make us out to be but in the end all we can do is take it with a grain of salt. I am sorry you did not want us to share our accounts/photos/videos. I am sorry we hike anyone including the experts up there and encourage people to get their state land pass and hike the legal areas up there. I am sorry so many locally have died locally of lung concerns/copd/cancer since the YHF including the state board respiratory specialist 30 y.o. Zack Ashoor that Sonny hiked up there to see his GMHS friends. I am sorry I keep trying to get every and any vehicle to get clarity on the YHF including encouraging homeowners who had a loss of loved one and home and etc to please SHARE your accounts and photos/videos. But I am not sorry for the unique way I live my life. It keeps me alive. I want to be here a very long time. God-willing I will…and I will keep hiking and sharing until I see all areas exhausted—
My thing I would love to learn in regards to the Helms since God guided us to Utah and we met fire warden J. Eckert and one of his retired firefighter locals we met told us he helped build the Helms compound and he had some rather intriguing descriptions to that area so if I was the lawyers or investigators who gave a shit…and I mean this…for all affected by the YHF…they would test the soil to that area after what I heard what I did—I for sure think that area should be tested. We know the air quality was tested and high in N02 and other stuff and I also would metal detect the shit out of that area. As for the Helm’s place…like I said I have perimeter cameras everywhere I am from vehicle to camp to home and you bet I am going to have cameras in places people would never figure out and believe you me I had a tween or 2 try…so I KNOW I saw footage that was not the gate of the Helms somewhere online or on video soon after we returned. I do think they have more than one camera. Oh and if you all here want to see the GMHS fence that was in the media in July 2013 there is a private invite only by Sonny and me to show you it Oct. 16th 10am so if interested in being there- email sonnygillyxs@gmail.com. MUST have your RSVP and how many by THIS Thursday the 9th and the fence is located in Prescott. Thank you. I don’t want people saying who is going…no name dropping so you can decide if you want to go based on who is there but there is some officials that will be there and hopefully the Milan Italy artist who is doing our own personal memorial mural. We just have to come up with the material and he will do his magic. Anyone interesting in helping on the material …craigslist has always been good to Sonny and he has stuff under Prescott Wanted area—you can see his list there.
TRY AGAIN
Joy A. Collura says
OCTOBER 7, 2014 AT 2:08 AM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
reply: I tried answering this a few times even earlier today so I am unsure why this is not posting-
I will not ask any questions to the Helms in regards to the fire but I will ask direct ones in regards to rumors on us in regards to them and I did. It was brought to my attention that a rumor about the hikers surfaced last Fall near the time Morgan Loew did his report on us and the sair report came out in regards to a crazy theory that was created and told by the Prescott fire community that Sonny and Joy were contacting/harrassing the GMHS loved ones last Fall saying the men were not actually dead and the findings were drug cartel..
I reckon the concern here was who there felt such depth to create that and why not come to us the source vs making that statement go viral. Anyone I asked today never heard it so nice to see you chum chums out there can say that…there was a few words that came to my attention and those words were ONLY said behind close doors between Sonny and myself so those few words told to us in regards to another topic—NICE! Bug our private camp spots to gain who we are…the information you gain means zip we have been upfront that we are the old married couple (he’s old) (I am married) and we also are like two kids on the trails…we live life unlike others…my husband drops me off on his way to work and picks me up on the way home. I sleep over on times we have early morning stuff. We hike and we go to the library yet our thing is to pioneer and explore…so waste your time and energy trying to dig deeper and you will see no cobwebs or skeletons in our neck of the woods. Sad how people make us out to be but in the end all we can do is take it with a grain of salt. I am sorry you did not want us to share our accounts/photos/videos. I am sorry we hike anyone including the experts up there and encourage people to get their state land pass and hike the legal areas up there. I am sorry so many locally have died locally of lung concerns/copd/cancer since the YHF including the state board respiratory specialist 30 y.o. Zack Ashoor that Sonny hiked up there to see his GMHS friends. I am sorry I keep trying to get every and any vehicle to get clarity on the YHF including encouraging homeowners who had a loss of loved one and home and etc to please SHARE your accounts and photos/videos. But I am not sorry for the unique way I live my life. It keeps me alive. I want to be here a very long time. God-willing I will…and I will keep hiking and sharing until I see all areas exhausted—
My thing I would love to learn in regards to the Helms since God guided us to Utah and we met fire warden J. Eckert and one of his retired firefighter locals we met told us he helped build the Helms compound and he had some rather intriguing descriptions to that area so if I was the lawyers or investigators who gave a shit…and I mean this…for all affected by the YHF…they would test the soil to that area after what I heard what I did—I for sure think that area should be tested. We know the air quality was tested and high in N02 and other stuff and I also would metal detect the shit out of that area. As for the Helm’s place…like I said I have perimeter cameras everywhere I am from vehicle to camp to home and you bet I am going to have cameras in places people would never figure out and believe you me I had a tween or 2 try…so I KNOW I saw footage that was not the gate of the Helms somewhere online or on video soon after we returned. I do think they have more than one camera. Oh and if you all here want to see the GMHS fence that was in the media in July 2013 there is a private invite only by Sonny and me to show you it Oct. 16th 10am so if interested in being there- email sonnygillyxs@gmail.com. MUST have your RSVP and how many by THIS Thursday the 9th and the fence is located in Prescott. Thank you. I don’t want people saying who is going…no name dropping so you can decide if you want to go based on who is there but there is some officials that will be there and hopefully the Milan Italy artist who is doing our own personal memorial mural. We just have to come up with the material and he will do his magic. Anyone interesting in helping on the material …craigslist has always been good to Sonny and he has stuff under Prescott Wanted area—you can see his list there.
Reply
**
** MYSTERY SOLVED
**
** THE 4490red VLAT DROP VIDEO STARTED AT 1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
Ever since YouTube User 4490red posted that PUBLIC video of his showing a VLAT drop just north of the U-Store-It facility off Highway 89 it has been a bit of mystery exactly WHICH VLAT drop that was and WHEN it really happened.
Actually… it has always been obvious that that video was shot either DURING or shortly AFTER the appearance of the MAYDAY traffic on the radio at 1639… but I don’t think the ‘mystery’ of EXACTLY when that video was taken was every fully resolved.
The ANSWER to this ‘mystery’ starts with the background radio traffic that was recorded while this VLAT drop was being filmed.
At the very moment the video starts… we hear someone on the radio relaying GPS coordinates to someone else. That first radio capture is exactly this…
+0:00
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): Three four, one six point one nine by one one two, four four point one four.
The GPS coordinates being supplied at the start of this video are…
Latitude: 34′ 16.19″
Longitude: 112′ 44.14″
Decimal equivalent(s)…
34.2698333, -112.7356667
At first it was thought that this was, perhaps, a radio capture of that known moment during the ground rescue mission when the GPS coordinates for those ‘bladder bags’ was being relayed to the ground rescue team that was now out at the anchor point looking for GM.
SIDENOTE: That ground rescue team was Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby, BR Captain Trueheart Brown and the 3 Bea Day Team off-the-radar-hires Jayson Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. Off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd is the one who shot the ‘Helmet-Cam’.
As it turns out… those GPS coordinates are NOT the ‘bladder bags’ at all.
Those GPS coordinates are actually the spot that was decided upon for the ‘staging’ of the LifeFlight MEDEVAC helicopters that were all headed to Yarnell following the deployment.
The GPS coordinates from the 4490red video are a spot in that open field just SOUTH of where the Panebaker cameras were set up on Hays Ranch Road near the Helibase up in Peeples Valley.
Actual distance(s) from Panebaker camera setup…
1,493 feet due west on Hays Ranch Road from Panebaker location… then 785 feet due south of Hays Ranch Road OR 1,593 feet due southwest of the Panebaker video camera setup.
These coordinates are an exact match for what was also being broadcast at that time via the ADC ‘Air Dispatch’ and is reflected in those ‘Dispatch Logs’.
The Latitude and Longitude that were established for the LifeFlight choppers in the ‘Dispatch Logs’ are the same as heard in the 4490red video.
From the public document entitled “I-Dispatch Records” – PDF page 53 of 97
————————————————————————————
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:12.09 ( 5:12.09 PM )
From: BRAVO 33
To: CH
Message: Switched out with Bravo 3 and going to head to Prescott
for fuel // Copy. Give a call landline when you can.
* Next entry in log comes 4 seconds later…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:12:13 ( 5:12.13 PM )
From: JENNIFER
To: PMB
Message: PRESCOTT ALARM, MAY HAVE 20+ UNKNOWN AT THIS TIME.
DPS PUT ON STANDBY IN FLAG. MEDEVAC REQUESTED TO MOVE UP IN
CASE NEEDED. SHE WILL PUT OUT NOTIFICATION.
* Next entry in log comes 3 minutes and 14 seconds later…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:15:27 ( 5:15.27 PM )
From: BRAVO 3
To: ALLI
Message: AIR SUPERVISION IS THERE MEDICAL RESPONSE
REPORTING TO THIS FIRE? // YES IF WE CAN GET A FIFTEEN MINUTE
WHEN THEY CAN GET IN THERE AND A GOOD CONTACT // YES //
ALSO CAN WE GET AN UPDATED LAT/LON TO GIVE TO LIFE FLIGHT //
POSSIBLE LIFE FLIGHT HAVE THEM REPORT TO FIRE NOW PLEASE
AND HAVE THEM COME UP ON TO GROUND SMOKE IS CLEARING //
NEED A LAT/LON? // REPORT TO HAVE LIFE FLIGHT LIFT NOW AND
WE WILL HAVE THE LAT AND LONG WHEN THEY LAUNCH // WE ARE
CURRENTLY GETTING THEM LAUNCHED DO YOU HAVE A NUMBER
OF PERSONELL INVOLVED? // HELO IS TO REPORT 34 16.19 X 112 44.146
AND COME UP ON FREQS 134.175 AND HAVE THEM HAVE AIR TO
GROUND // 25 PERSONELL ARE INVOLVED.
———————————————————————–
So there is the exact match for the same GPS coordinates being ‘broadcast’ over the A2G channel at the start of the 4490red VLAT DROP video.
That means this 4490red video could NOT have been taken BEFORE the LifeFlight helicopters were ordered and those GPS coordinates decided on for their ‘staging area’ up north near the Helibase.
That also means the 4490red video was NOT taken DURING the MAYDAY radio traffic itself. It was taken some time ( but not TOO long ) AFTER that.
That definitely puts the time for this 4490red video close to that entry in Eric Panebaker’s own Unit Log where he records a VLAT 910 drop at 1706 ( 5:06 PM ).
The FINAL proof that this 1706 VLAT drop is actually the one shown in the 4490red video comes from the other Panebaker Air-To-Air channel radio captures for the time period 1645 through 1716.
By 1700 ( 5:00 PM ), Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ had already told VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ that they had been (quote) “briefed about as well as we can be” regarding the deployment incident that was still unfolding beneath them… and Thomas French decides to just go ‘back to work’ with Kevin in the VLAT and drop some retardant to protect more structures in Yarnell.
We actually HEAR Thomas French and VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ discussing and executing this very next 1706 VLAT drop captured by the 4490red video and recorded in Panebaker’s Unit Log.
Here is the part of that Panebaker Air-To-Air channel recording that covers the actual 1706 ( 5:06 PM ) VLAT drop in the 4490red video…
—————————————————————————
The matching DROP sequence from the Panebaker
20130630_1716_EP Air-To-Air channel capture video.
—————————————————————————
This excerpt from that video starts just before the VLAT 910 drop
and then goes through Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’ taking over
Air Attack duties and French and Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) leave Yarnell
and head to Prescott.
—————————————————————————
NOTE: At +18:41 the static clears and we now clearly hear French say that everything is ‘starting to clear up’ ( with regards to smoke ), and he guides pilot ‘Kevin’ in the DC10 VLAT 910 in for a drop.
+18:41 ( 1704.00 / 5:04.00 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… everything is startin’ to clear up. I’m gonna start my descent. I’m out of six thousand.
+18:46 ( 1704.05 / 5:04.05 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Perfect. Yea… we’re in the… uh… clear, too.
+18:59 ( 1704.18 / 5:04.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… we’re gonna have a… kind of a… little bit of a turn on short final. Just go ahead and follow me. Smoke’s kinda layin’ over. I think what we need to do is kinda put it in at the far south end. Just go ahead and follow me.
+19:10 ( 1704.29 / 5:04.29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): (Copy that.) We’ll do it.
+19:22 ( 1704.41 / 5:04.41 PM )
(B33 – French): ( He is talking again at this point but static has increased ) ( He appears to be giving some heading information. The words ‘Zero Five Five’ seem to be heard in this transmission ).
+19:30 ( 1704.49 / 5:04.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Got it.
+19:35 ( 1704.54 / 5:04.54 PM )
(B33 – French): Top heading will be about… uh… Zero One Zero.
+19:39 ( 1704.58 / 5:04.58 PM )
(B33 – French): Still got me in sight?
+19:40 ( 1704.59 / 5:04.59 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): You bet.
+19:42 ( 1705.01 / 5:05.01 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’m on line.
+19:44 ( 1705.03 / 5:05.03 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I’m gonna have to follow ??
+19:47 ( 1705.06 / 5:05.06 PM )
(B33 – French): You got it. We’re gonna have to go over a road right about… here. See where the (??) flames… get it good as you can. I’m at forty-eight hundred.
+19:55 ( 1705.14 / 5:05.14 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay.
+19:57 ( 1705.16 / 5:05.16 PM )
(B33 – French): I’m hard right. You’re gentle right.
+19:59 ( 1705.18 / 5:05.18 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Got it.
** 26 SECOND PAUSE. NO AIR-TO-AIR CHANNEL TRAFFIC
** THE DC10 VLAT 910 DROP TAKES PLACE DURINING
** THIS 26 SECOND PAUSE IN THE A2A CHANNEL TRAFFIC.
+20:25 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): TONE. Drop complete.
+20:28 ( 1705.47 / 5:05.47 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea. I think I stepped on ya. How’d that work?
+20:30 ( 1705.49 / 5:05.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Ah… that worked fine. Uh… Drop complete. We’re gonna go north just a bit.
+20:34 ( 1705.53 / 5:05.53 PM )
(B33 – French): You bet. Take as much room as ya need. You got all the room out there. That’s gonna be a load and return Phoenix… and that looked like it went in there really good. Uh… nicely done. I appreciate all your help on that one.
+20:43 ( 1706.02 / 5:06.02 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yep. Ah… no problem. Ah… load and return. See ya in a bit.
+20:56 ( 1706.15 / 5:06.15 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Bravo Three, Bravo Three Thr… Uh… Bravo Three Three, Bravo Three.
+20:59 ( 1706.18 / 5:06.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead, Rusty.
+21:00 ( 1706.19 / 5:06.19 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Ya want me to just look at extendin’ that?
+21:05 ( 1706.24 / 5:06.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey Rusty… you (faded) out. Say again?
+21:07 ( 1706.26 / 5:06.26 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Are you lookin’ at just extendin’ that line.
+21:10 ( 1706.29 / 5:06.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Well… ( he laughs)… that’s… that’s not even the line I wanted. I wanted to be further to the south… Break. Seven Four Nine… Bravo Three Three… you’re clear to the dip.
+21:19 ( 1706.38 / 5:06.38 PM )
(Helicopter 749): Four Nine’s at the dip.
+21:22 ( 1706.41 / 5:06.41 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Yea… good luck on that, though. Can you get underneath it that far?
+21:25 ( 1706.44 / 5:06.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Nah. I couldn’t. I could a few minutes ago… we got so busy kinda lookin’ for the… uh… deployment… but… yea… if I were you I would just kind of extend that as best you can… and then… if you can get in there, then just back up further north.
+21:38 ( 1706.57 / 5:06.57 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Got it.
+21:39 ( 1706.58 / 5:06.58 PM )
(B33 – French): You have Helitanker Seven Four Nine. You’re controlling them. And… uh… Kilo Alpha. They’re Wickenburg… uh… load and return. We ordered everything we could outta Prescott. I think we got two more Helitankers.
+21:50 ( 1707.09 / 5:07.09 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Sweet. Yea. We did that earlier, too. It’s kinda anything available… take it.
+21:55 ( 1707.14 / 5:07.14 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea… and I got about a minute left on scene… uh… and we gotcha in sight… and you’re still at seven, right?
+22:01 ( 1707.20 / 5:07.20 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Well… I drifted down to six-five.
+22:03 ( 1707.22 / 5:07.22 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay. Copy that. Uh… break. Standby.
+22:08 ( 1707.27 / 5:07.27 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Let me pop back up. I gotcha.
+22:10 ( 1707.29 / 5:07.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea. I gotcha. So… I guess John was talking to… uh… Paul. I actually missed that.
+22:15 ( 1707.34 / 5:07.34 PM )
(Unknown. Paul Lenmark in Bravo 3?): I think we’re probly good… if (??) short.
( Overlapping transmission here ).
+22:19 ( 1707.38 / 5:07.38 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): (??) …we’ll, uh, thrash it out.
+22:21 ( 1707.40 / 5:07.40 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay. Copy that… yea… we gotta bug out. And… uh… we’re gonna head into Prescott.
+22:26 ( 1707.45 / 5:07.45 PM )
(Helicopter 749): Four Nine outta the dip.
+22:27 ( 1707.46 / 5:07.46 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Okay. Copy that. Prescott. Ya comin’ back?
+22:30 ( 1707.49 / 5:07.49 PM )
(B33 French): I don’t think so… and I think we may have to head into Albuquerque either tonight or early tomorrow. AC is out and we’re burnin.
+22:37 ( 1707.56 / 5:07.56 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): I’ll bet.
+22:40 ( 1707.59 / 5:07.59 PM )
(Helicopter 749): And Lead, Four Nine, do you want us back on the south side?
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: That’s it for ‘Bravo 33’ in Yarnell that day. Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’
is now responding this ‘Lead Plane’ call from Helicopter 749
and have now taken over ‘Air Attack’ from the departing
‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )
——————————————————————————–
So now we have an actual TIMESTAMP to use to determine the START of the 4490red video itself.
VLAT 910 pilot Kevin called out ‘Drop complete’ at this exact moment in the Air-To-Air channel capture…
+20:25 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): TONE. Drop complete.
In the 4490red video… we see the retardant ‘shut off’ at exactly +50 seconds into the video.
So just subtracting 50 seconds from 1705.44 gives a START time for the 4490red video of…
1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
Mystery solved.
Last but not least… here is the new full transcript of the 4490red VLAT DROP VIDEO which now includes the actual TIMESTAMPS for the START and END of this video…
—————————————————————-
4490red VIDEO starts at 1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
—————————————————————-
+0:00 ( 1704.54 / 5:04.54 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): Three four, one six point one nine by
one one two, four four point one four.
NOTE: Someone was supplying the GPS coordinates for the staging
area to be used by the LifeFlight MEDEVAC helicopters headed for Yarnell…
Latitude: 34′ 16.19″
Longitude: 112′ 44.14″
+0:11 ( 1705.05 / 5:05.05 PM )
(Unknown 2 – on A2G channel?): Two. Copy that.
+0:13 ( 1705.07 / 5:05.07 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): No worries, man.
NOTE: No other radio traffic for 25 seconds while the VLAT lines up flying a
SOUTH to NORTH drop line. The drop begins at +0:34 and continues
for 16 seconds until the retardant outflow shuts off at +0:50.
+0:34 ( 1705.28 / 5:05.28 PM )
DROP START – RETARDANT OUTFLOW FROM THE VLAT TURNS ON.
+0:38 ( 1705.32 / 5:05.32 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): They’re on the… uh… they were on the heel.
It’s Ranger Five Eight and… uh… you can probly reach ’em on this frequency but…
uh… you need to go back.
+0:50 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
DROP COMPLETE – RETARDANT OUTFLOW FROM THE VLAT TURNS OFF.
————————————————-
Here are Eric Panebaker’s entries from his own ‘Unit Log’ that confirms this
is the ‘1706’ drop being filmed by 4490red from the U-Store-It Mini-mart.
————————————————-
1633 T413 drop.
1640 Possible deployment in division A, hold T910 drop.
1647 Still can’t find people or get ahold of Div. A or Granite Mountain.
1658 T910, CL4 full load.
1706 T910 drop
1708 T06 on scene.
1723 I stop filming/taking pictures and start helping the Medical response task force.
————————————————-
+0:51 ( 1705.45 / 5:05.45 PM )
(Unknown 2 – on A2G channel?): Ranger Five Eight.
+0:52 ( 1705.46 / 5:05.46 PM )
(Unknown 3 – on A2G channel?): ( Modulation is heard like someone pressing their
microphone and trying to transmit… but the video ends before any words can
be made out. This could have been the start of Ranger Five Eight answering
the callout to them just 2 seconds ago at +0:50 ).
+0:53: ( 1705.47 / 5:05.47 PM ) – VIDEO ENDS
—————————————————–
Followup…
In the Panebaker 20130630_1716_EP Air-To-Air channel capture video, which covers the time from 1645 ( 4:45 PM ) to 1716 ( 5:16 PM ) and ends with DPS Chopper Ranger 58 requesting clearance from Rusty Warbis ( Bravo 3 ) to lift and begin their search for Granite Mountain…. you can actually SEE the 1706 ( 5:06 PM ) VLAT 910 drop taking place there in the distance as filmed by 4490red in hist video at the U-Store-It facility.
It’s very hard to see…. but even without video enhancement capability you can see the LIGHTS of both ‘Bravo 3′ acting as Lead Plane and VLAT 910 as they perform this 1706 drop there some distance south of the Panebaker video camera.
By the time we reach the following Air-To-Air traffic exchange captured by Panebaker… VLAT 910 is now seen ’emerging’ from the drop and headed straight along that same south-to-north drop line and right at Panebaker’s camera.
VLAT 910 does, in fact, do exactly what he says here.
He comes out of that drop, banks slightly, and is seen clearly in the Panebaker video heading ‘to the north’ as he prepares to leave Yarnell on a ‘load and return’.
+20:30 ( 1705.49 / 5:05.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Ah… that worked fine. Uh… Drop complete. We’re gonna go north just a bit.
+20:34 ( 1705.53 / 5:05.53 PM )
(B33 – French): You bet. Take as much room as ya need. You got all the room out there. That’s gonna be a load and return Phoenix… and that looked like it went in there really good. Uh… nicely done. I appreciate all your help on that one.
+20:43 ( 1706.02 / 5:06.02 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yep. Ah… no problem. Ah… load and return. See ya in a bit.
Correction for the ‘Followup’ post just above.
It was ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) who were still performing ‘Lead Plane’ duties for this 1706 VLAT 910 drop, and not ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ).
‘Bravo 3’ was already in the area and ‘hanging out’ over the fire waiting to relieve ‘Bravo 33’ as ‘Air Attack’… but this final VLAT 910 drop at 1706 there just north of the U-Store-It facility on Highway 89 was the LAST thing that ‘Bravo 33’ did before then handing off AA duties to ‘Bravo 3’ and leaving for Prescott.
Since they scrubbed their video from YouTube, do YOU have a copy of it?
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2014 at 8:15 am
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not understand the lack of communications
>> between Air Attack and the IC.
We still don’t have the full story on that, since ( among other reasons ) the elusive Mr. Rory Collins was never fully and properly interviewed by ADOSH… but there IS some amount of evidence to indicate that some very important information WAS being relayed from Air Support to Ground Support that day… it just didn’t ‘register’ with them or no one felt it was THEIR responsibility to DO anything with that information they were receiving.
Example: Division Z Rance Marquez being one of the recipients of ‘Bravo 3’s initial evaluation of “current and expected fire behavior” even as early as 12:30 PM that day. We know he didn’t even bother to hang around and actually MANAGE the Division he was assigned and that he just left the Sesame area, scouted around some more, then returned up north to the ICP… but even when he returned to the ICP where IC Roy Hall really was just hanging out in that ‘principal’s office’ up there… did he bother to relay what he had been told to Hall? Apparently not.
Just more evidence that you can pass out all the radios you want and people can be actually talking on them… it doesn’t mean they are ever actually COMMUNICATING.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Unless it was just a lack of respect by one or the other
I’m not sure I’d call it a ‘lack of respect’… but after listening to hours of Air-To-Air channel conversations between the ‘Air Support’ people themselves ( for the Yarnell incident, anyway ) it is amazing how ‘unconcerned’ they seem to be ( at all times ) about ANYTHING the ground people are actually doing.
Yes… they will respond to REQUESTS ( like ‘Bravo 3’ did from Darrell Willis when they first arrived on the fire )… but as far as what the overall PLAN is ‘on the ground’…. it seems they really couldn’t care less. They arrive over a fire… they size things up on their own… and then they seem to proceed to do whatever the heck THEY want to do or feel NEEDS to be done.
Another example: Air Attack Rory Collins decides to just dump retardant all over DIVSA’s indirect burnouts near the anchor point without even bothering to check with him first. He just saw something HE didn’t understand or didn’t like from the Air and then did what HE wanted.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The IC is supposed to be in control of the fire and making the decisions.
>> Air Attack should be in contact with the IC at all times.
Glad to hear you say that.
Based on just the way ‘Air Support’ was operating in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… I was under the impression that that was simply NEVER the case.
It’s actually pretty astounding how much of a ‘free pass’ IC Roy Hall seems to be getting as far as any responsibility for what ultimately happened in Yarnell goes.
Even in his own SAIT interview… Roy Hall said that his FIRST priority at even the initial 7:00 AM briefing at the Yarnell HIll Fire Station was to (quote) “Get aircraft over the fire”.
Then, after the 9:00 AM briefing at the Model Creek School ICP up in Peeples Valley…. Roy Hall then basically set himself up in the school principal’s office and was then just on the phone with people trying to UPGRADE the Incident to ‘other levels’ the rest of the day.
He didn’t even have a radio with him and wasn’t even listening to the communications on the fire he was supposed to be the IC of that day.
He actually told the SAIT investigators…
“As IC; I empower my people and don’t listen to the radio. I wasn’t listening to the radio.”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they (Air Support) note a serious change in the fire activity then they
>> need to be keeping the IC up to date on their analyses of what is
>> going to happen. That is the way it usually works.
See above. They couldn’t have called IC Roy Hall on the radio that day even if they had tried.
He didn’t even HAVE a radio that day.
But Roy Hall said that is ‘normal for him’.
He told the SAIT investigators that’s how HE operates.
He ’empowers’ people and then doesn’t even feel the need to have a radio.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Again the lack of leadership by the IC keeps jumping out at me on this Fire.
>> The OPS seemed to fall into the same trap.
>> Were they really that highly qualified?
If there was ever a day when the IC of a fire should have been directly involved and making SURE all the designated OPS and Division people were ‘communicating well’… it was THAT day.
But Roy Hall was simply sitting in the principal’s office and not even listening to the radio.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> GM and many others made there own decisions because no one else
>> was truly making any direct supervisory decisions for them.
And that could very well be what Eric Marsh meant when he told Jesse Steed at 3:55 PM…
“I knew this was coming. I could just feel it, ya know?”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This in turn caused the steam rolling effect of many people having
>> near misses in burn overs that ended with 19 dead fire fighters.
Apparently… Air Support was dropping retardant right there near the end of Harper Canyon but were still unaware that there were actually CREWS out at the end of that canyon who would then almost die themselves because no one was warning them where the fire really was.
There was no ‘safe black’ in Harper Canyon.
Of any crews on the fire… they were the ones that were the most ‘blind’ to where the fire really was and what it was really doing and they needed PLENTY of notification ( from someone ) as to when they should ‘get the hell out of there’.
That notification was very, very nearly TOO LATE that day.
Even without Air Support having any idea they were there so THEY” could ‘warn’ them… they had (supposedly) THREE different lookouts yet they STILL had to ‘self-evacuate’ when the fire came roaring over the ridgeline just above their heads.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Strong people need to lead a Fire Team.
>> and we are back to the military thing again
>> Chain of command and the ability to lead direct and
>> make decisions on the run. The buck stops here.
After he held his little ‘meetings’ that morning… IC Roy Hall apparently felt that it was OK for him to just sit in an office with no radio and talk on the phone to people who weren’t even in Yarnell about what ‘tomorrow’ should look like and what ‘orders for tomorrow’ were being placed.
Roy Hall seems to be a ‘capable leader’…. but he forgot to actually fight the fire he was hired to fight THAT DAY and seemed just totally preoccupied THAT day about what TOMORROW was going to look like ( structure-wise ).
I believe that contributed to a lot of the ‘accidents’ that almost-did ( and DID ) happen on ‘his watch’. His lack of direct supervision of the OPS and DIVS command, communication and control that day ( as well as coordination with Air Support ) contributed more than just a few ‘holes in the swiss cheese’ that were tragically going to ‘align’ that day.
A couple of points————–
A type 2 fire with a type 2 overhead should be and normally is a hands on operation
We are not talking about 1000 plus man power fire.
Also again we have the fact that there was no Plans section ordered so the IC was doing that rather than delegating some one to start the planning for next shift. Like the extra OPS.
This was a glaring failure in leadership and the investigation should have noted it as well.
So the State was responsible for what happened and deserved the fines levied and much more.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2014 at 5:10 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A type 2 fire with a type 2 overhead should be and
>> normally is a hands on operation
>> We are not talking about 1000 plus man power fire.
It really does seem like Roy Hall was suffering from that sort of ‘misconception of scale’ from the moment he arrived. He had agreed to ‘IC’ the thing… but even when they had to scrape for DIVS in the morning and pull a guy off a Hotshot crew who had only been a DIVS about one other time in his life ( Eric Marsh )… Roy Hall seemed to be pretending it was some large fire with a lot of OPS and DIVS people and all he had to do was the usual ‘start of shift’ briefings and then ‘back off and let people do their jobs’.
He then busied himself with all the things a ‘Planning OPS’ should be doing instead of being the IC of the fire burning outside his office… or something.
The only time he seemed to get ‘hands on’ that day was when the very building HE was in started to be threatened by the fire.
Even while evacuations were in progress… he called for a ‘stand-up’ meeting at the ICP that was only about what TOMORROW was going to look like and how the transition to the type 1 structure should go down.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> This was a glaring failure in leadership and the investigation
>> should have noted it as well.
Yes. They should have… and not from any kind of standpoint of ‘crucifying’ anyone… but from a ‘Lessons Learned’ perspective.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> So the State was responsible for what happened and
>> deserved the fines levied and much more.
What happened with ADOSH is that the moment they knew they had enough evidence to justify what basically amounts to the MAXIMUM fines they are even allowed to impose… they basically ‘called it a day’ and stopped investigating the incident.
There is a LIMIT to the fines that Arizona OSHA can impose.
The Yarnell incident was basically pegging their meter on ‘unsafe workplace’ and ‘maximum penalties’ even before they finished their first round of interviews… so they had no real incentive to actually ‘get to the real bottom’ of some things like where ALL the points of ‘failure’ really were.
Followup…
In January of 2014, a Law Firm in Arizona issued a pretty good ‘summary’ of the ADOSH Yarnell decision(s) as an ‘advisory’ to employers.
It shows how ADOSH basically hit the Arizona Forestry department with ‘everything it had’ with regard to one WILLFUL violation and two SERIOUS violations.
Even if they had continued their investigation they couldn’t have gone any higher than the fines that were imposed for the ‘violations’ that they determined were obvious and provable with evidence.
ARIZONA
EMPLOYMENT LAW LETTER
Part of your Arizona Employment Law Service
Dinita L. James, Editor January 2014
Gonzalez Saggio & Harlan LLP
WORKPLACE SAFETY
Safety, admin, wf,
Article Title: ADOSH levies huge fine for deaths of Yarnell Hotsho
http://www.gshllp.com/download/AZ%20Emp%20Law%20Letter%20DLJ%20January%202014.pdf
From the article…
————————————————————-
After months of investigating, the ADOSH recommended issuing three major workplace safety citations. On December 4, 2013, the Arizona Industrial Commission unanimously approved the citations and penalties totaling $559,000 against the ADOF. Of that, $84,000 will be passed among state accounts, and $25,000 will go directly to each of the families or estates of the 19 “hotshots” who died fighting the Yarnell Hill blaze.
* Violations put lives in jeopardy
The ADOSH categorized one citation as “willful serious.” The ADOSH concluded that the ADOF knowingly put the 19 hotshots and more than 60 other firefighters at risk of smoke inhalation, burns, and death in a futile mission to protect buildings and pasture land.
The two other citations fell in the “serious” category and were based on the ADOF’s failure to have a detailed plan in place during a “life[-]threatening transition between initial attack and extended attack operations” and for allowing “critical incident management personnel” to be absent or late at crucial times during the transition.
* Tragedy highlights ADOSH’s duties
The ADOSH operates under an approved plan with the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) and has initial jurisdiction over all occupational health and safety issues and violations in Arizona (except those involving mines, Indian reservations, and federal employees).The ADOSH has extensive consultation and training programs and welcomes opportunities to help businesses improve workplace safety.
* Maximum penalties imposed
The magnitude of the penalty for the Yarnell Hill fire can be seen by comparing it to the total penalties assessed by the ADOSH during fiscal year 2013, which ran from October 1, 2012, through September 30, 2013. During the fiscal year, the penalties assessed by the ADOSH totaled $875,732.
The maximum fine the ADOSH can assess for a willful violation is $70,000. For serious violations, the max is $7,000. Thus, the ADOSH hit the ADOF with all the penalties it had available ($84,000 for one willful violation and two serious violations). The five-member Industrial Commission has to approve ADOSH citations that assess penalties of more than $2,500. The ADOF can appeal the citations to an administrative law judge. The ADOF has announced its intention to appeal.
————————————————————-
What is also interesting from above is that explanation about ADOSH’s ‘jurisdiction’.
The article says…
“The ADOSH operates under an approved plan with the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) and has initial jurisdiction over all occupational health and safety issues and violations in Arizona (except those involving mines, Indian reservations, and federal employees).”
Notice that ‘jurisdictional exception’ if there are FEDERAL EMPLOYEES involved.
Well… there WERE, in fact, a lot of ‘Federal Employees’ involved in the Yarnell incident at both the management, command, and line-duty levels,
BLM employees in management/command, Blue Ridge Hotshots, DC10 VLATS are Federally owned and operated and one of them almost crashed, etc. etc.
A lot of these ‘Federal Employees’ came very close to being hurt or injured that day along with everyone else.
Given this fact… it’s a wonder that it was ONLY Arizona OSHA that was tasked with the full ‘jurisdiction’ for investigating this incident.
You would think the Federal OSHA would have ALSO wanted to do its own investigation and ( perhaps ) issue its OWN fines and/or citations.
This is splitting a hair, but, just for the record, the DC-10 VLATs are not federally owned/operated. They’re privately owned, privately piloted, and they are CONTRACTED by whoever contracts them. During their first several years of use, they (and their crews) were contracted by the State of California.
Very few of the aerial resources on fires are owned by the government. And, for the most part, only the ASMs and Lead Planes are even piloted by federal employees.
I’m wondering if the “involved” term depends on how “involved” is defined.
As we have learned, if a Forest Service employee had been killed, a federal investigation would have kicked in. Since none was, the Forest Service, from the get-go, stepped in to “protected its assets” (even possibly including, to some extent, Brendan McDonough?).
The BLM doesn’t have the same legislated mandate, but it DID step in also to “protect its assets.” Rance Marquez, Rusty Warbis, and Paul Lenmark were the only BLM employees who really seriously cooperated with the ADOSH investigation. ADOSH had to jump through additional hoops just to access B-33’s aerial photos. And, it’s obvious, in their interview, that Warbis and Lenmark were quite nervous about the whole process. They could have easily chosen to not be interviewed.
I also found it interesting, in the Warbis/Lenmark interview, that the ADOSH investigators had been provided access to the Department of Agriculture Air Study videos, but the version of those videos that they were provided had all the NAMES bleeped out, except for Rusty Warbis’ (which he was not happy about). I guess that was an “oops.”
I find myself speculating what would have been the process if it had been Bea Day’s full Type 2 Team that had been in charge (other than that I don’t think this complete debacle would have happened if it had been).
But still.
It’s an Arizona Central West Team, but Bea Day is a USFS employee, as are many of its members.
It was assigned to the Extended Attack on the Thompson Ridge Fire, on the Valles Caldera National Preserve in New Mexico, just weeks before the Yarnell Hill Fire. Granite Mountain IHC was on that fire.
What if Granite Mountain IHC had done something like what they did at Yarnell at that fire?
I wonder, what kind of investigation(s) THAT would have kicked in?
Bob and WTKTT
Reading what you two are writing here after spending several days creating a visual/descriptive data-base of all the aircraft/aerial crews flying on the fire that day, including atgs and asm (and that has been a bit challenging), and then re-reading B-3’s interview several times and thinking it may be a bit more complicated/muddy than in my Friday rant, but I still think the principles I wrote about stand.
I find myself agreeing with both of you, but also, standing in some place in between you.
To me the culprit is the Type 2 SHORT team.
Regarding what Bob wrote, if a Type 2 Team is supposed to be more “hands on” than “bureaucratic,” it seems to me it needs to be, at least, big enough to actually have the people needed to actually fight the fire from the get-go.
This team, as ordered, was never resourced sufficiently to take charge of the fire and fight it, and, thus, Roy Hall spent Sunday in that office on that telephone, while ignoring the radio, assuming his OPS were capable of handling the fire, patching up the holes all over his team, while the people actually trying to fight the fire were, obviously, overwhelmed by it.
WTKTT wrote, “Roy Hall seemed to be pretending it was some large fire with a lot of OPS and DIVS people”
I’m not sure I agree with that. But I do think he must have thought there were about 3/4 the necessary resources on it and, thus, he could quickly sew patches over the holes by calling in parts of Bea Day’s team etc, so that the fire-fighters could stay at least somewhat on top of the fire,
What he missed was what Bravo 3 was seeing and (ineffectively) trying to communicate (after which they dove into attempting to support a strategy that was, by their own forecast, doomed to fail). And since he didn’t “do radios,” because he was accustomed to relying on/trusting his (inadequate) resources, he became so myopic in his bureaucratic endeavors, he had no idea of the larger scope of the fire that was actually happening all around him.
(I’m “thinking out loud” here).
Roy Hall was, obviously, aware that the resources ordered the night before (including his Type 2 Short Team) were insufficient to contain/control the fire.
Maybe what he wasn’t aware of was HOW SIGNIFICANTLY insufficient those resources were. He trusted them to “carry on” while he tried to “patch up the current holes” while trying to figure out what to do about TOMORROW. Not realizing that TOMORROW was going to be too late.
Which brings me to what you said, WTKTT.
“He had agreed to ‘IC’ the thing…”
I think this is the crux of the matter. The ordering of an insufficient team and the agreeing to fill it.
He agreed to fill it.
AZ Department of Forestry decided to order it.
Shumate went along with that. He hadn’t done an Escaped Fire Analysis. Apparently he was too tired to do that. Or something.
So there wasn’t sufficient data on the table, and sufficient mental energy, to challenge AZ DOF ordering a Type 2 Short Team, when, as we all now know, in hindsight, that was inappropriate given the extreme potential of the extreme fire behavior given the expected weather that manifested itself the next day, and, also, given that there was a FULL Type 2 Team available.
So, in my muddled mind, I’m wondering, which particular whos are responsible, and how, for accurately sizing up an escaped fire and, thus, the necessary resources (including the appropriate kind of IMT and the acceptance by the IC of that IMT of that fire), needed to fight it?
Right now I see a pretty serious FAIL on the part of Shumate, for, seemingly, being too brain-dead to do an Escaped Fire Analysis, AZ FIRE for blithely ordering up an obviously inadequate Type 2 IMT, and (I hate to say it) Roy Hall for agreeing to accept that assignment without requiring the necessary Escaped Fire Analysis before doing so.
And maybe the Lessons Learned here is that this stuff needs to be done WAY before (If I Remember Correctly) those late late night conversations that apparently took place as these decisions apparently were made.
I think you are hitting the nail on the head.
The big problem is the lack of conviction by many States to hit the resource button and increase the cost per acre of a wild land brush fire.
thus the reluctance to call in a type 2 or type 1 team. and enough resources to deal with the fire.
A evaluation that morning in hind site would have put what resources they had to work protecting The towns and admitted they could not contain the entire fire that day.
Also the absolute waste of retardant and its cost could have been better used in helping burnouts around the towns and build buffer zones to keep the fires out of the towns had that happened that morning.
You have to realize what your resources can do and adjust accordingly.
The State had the ability to make the escape fire Analysis and act accordingly. They basically failed to recognize the problem and expend the extra cost to put a team and manpower in place. The investigation should have also talked with the dispatch center and overhead making those decisions at the State level. Lets not for get on the 29th this fire went from IA containment to 400 plus Acres.
Just a point of information since it looks like this point has not yet been brought up here (although admittedly I am behind and have not been following well): John Burfiend was not deliberately ignoring anyone. According to what I am understanding from the guys who were there, at least the first couple of calls that were made by “Granite Mountain 7” looking for help when they were cut off by the flaming front were made on Tac 1, as opposed to actually being made on Air-to-Ground. Tac 1 was not a priority scan channel for Burfiend, as well it should not be, and, for those of you who do not understand radios, if you are communicating on or receiving an incoming call on one of your priority channels, you are not going to hear other communications. So if Dispatch was calling Burfiend to tell him that Wickenburg was out of retardant (guess where I got that from?), Burfiend most certainly would not have heard Steed or Caldwell or whomever it was calling on Tac 1.
Also, contrary to what some might be suggesting, Burfiend had multiple channels or frequencies to monitor, and he had his hands full (as did Tom French, which is why Tom French wanted to finish his dry run with the VLAT so that he could drop that plane and turn it around quickly). Airguard would obviously be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that. Next would be air-related dispatch or command channels or frequencies, next would be air-to-ground, next might be a second air-to-ground channel, next would be the air-to-air channels (of which there were multiple), and next would be the tactical channels. Burfiend was incredibly busy once Air Attack left, and my impression (although I have not had time to read all this and catch up) is that not everyone here is aware of that.
I hope this helps.
Looks like a repeat of your Blog to me…….
We are all aware of your attacks and BS. on who is not who.
Reply to Elizabeth post on October 4, 2014 at 10:15 am
>> Elizabeth wrote…
>>
>> I am behind and have not been following well.
Scroll down ( or use your Browser’s FIND option ) for a thread with the title…
** WAS THERE A MAYDAY CALL ON TAC 1 CHANNEL BEFORE 1639 A2G CALLS?
It contains a long discussion related to exactly what you are now commenting on.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> John Burfiend was not deliberately ignoring anyone.
Yes… he was.
See the discussion noted above and the transcripts of recorded conversations.
For a known amount of time… he was ‘choosing not to respond’ ( I call that ignoring ) to BOTH ‘Granite Mountain 7’ AND OPS1 Todd Abel asking him if he was ‘copying’ that traffic on Air-To-Ground.
Immediately after even just the first “We are in front of the flaming front” MADAY call from Jesse Steed captured in the Helmet-Cam video… OPS1 Todd Abel called Burfiend on the Air-To-Ground channel right away ( 13 seconds after that first MAYDAY ) and specifically asked Burfiend if he had heard that first MAYDAY call. Todd Abel himself even SAYS that transmissions was, in fact, on the “Air-To-Ground” channel and NOT on a TAC channel.
His exact question to Burfiend ( which also was ignored ) just 13 seconds after Steed’s first MAYDAY and BEFORE even the second MAYDAY call was…
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on air to ground?
So even Todd Abel knew that first MAYDAY captured in the Helmet-Cam had just now come over the Air-To-Ground channel and NOT a ‘TAC’ channel.
About TWO minutes later… when Burfiend finally does chose to answer OPS1 Abel… he says ( TWICE ) that he WAS hearing all that traffic… including Abel’s initial call to him which he had also chosen to ‘not respond to’.
I’m not going to reproduce the transcripts that prove all this up here.
I have already done so down below in the previous discussion.
You can just scroll down for the transcripts if you feel the need.
This is not ‘testimony’ in an interview that establishes all this as FACT.
It is all in the RECORDINGS and in the words of the men themselves.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> According to what I am understanding from the guys who were
>> there, at least the first couple of calls that were made by
>> “Granite Mountain 7″ looking for help when they were cut off by
>> the flaming front were made on Tac 1, as opposed to actually being
>> made on Air-to-Ground.
See above.
In the actual Helmet-Cam recording… Todd Abel himself confirms that the “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY call came over the Air-To-Ground channel and NOT a TAC channel. The Air-To-Ground channel WAS John Burfiend’s ‘priority channel’ at that time.
Regardless… There has always been that one piece of testimony in Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart’s Brown Unit Log which says that as he and Brian Frisby were evacuating the Shrine area and about to turn off of Shrine Road to head south on HIghway 89… they heard an ’emergency’ call from ‘Granite Mountain’ on a TAC channel. ( Just one call ).
The same BR Unit Log then also says that just a few minutes after that ( as they were now heading SOUTH on Highway 89 ) they heard MORE ’emergency’ calls… but this time they were coming over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
On July 4, during a media tour, Helicopter 5KA support person Todd Pedersen became the first Yarnell firefighter to admit that there WAS radio traffic from Granite Mountain just prior to the deployment… and that he had HEARD it. He said he first heard someone from Granite Mountain trying to ‘contact their Supervisor’. That SOUNDS like it might have been Pedersen hearing a call on a TAC channel ( since Bravo 33 on A2G was certainly NOT GM’s ‘Supervisor )… but before Pedersen could say anything else that day an Arizona Forestry official stepped in and basically told Pedersen to “Shut The Fuck Up” about any RADIO traffic he may have heard that day.
So even the media was not permitted to ‘followup’ on what Pedersen had just said and discover more detail about what radio channel he was talking about.
This STFU moment happened right in front of the media and they even then turned to the AZ official and were asking WHY Pedersen was being told to ‘Shut Up’.
All the AZ official would say was… “If there was any radio traffic from the crew around the time of deployment there still wouldn’t have been time for a rescue mission”.
On July 4, Arizona Forestry was probably already aware that Bea Day team off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd had that ‘Helmet-Cam’ video which captured these very radio transmissions Todd Pedersen was telling the media he heard himself… but they were probably still thinking ( on July 4 ) that maybe they would never have to even admit it existed or let anyone know what was on it. So that’s probably why the STFU order was given to Todd Pedersen regarding RADIO traffic.
So there has ALWAYS been some evidence of at least 1 ’emergency’ call taking place on a TAC channel just prior to the THREE MAYDAY calls that went out over the Air-To-Ground channel… but there is no doubt that the MAYDAY calls all heard in the Helmet-Cam are the ones that took place over Air-To-Ground, and NOT a ‘TAC’ channel.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Tac 1 was not a priority scan channel for Burfiend
Probably not. Doesn’t matter.
The MAYDAY calls ( and calls from OPS1 Todd Abel ) that he was choosing to not respond to for up to 2 minutes were coming directly to him over the Air-To-Ground channel… which WAS his ‘priority scan’ channel at that moment.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> as well it should not be, and, for those of you who do not understand
>> radios, if you are communicating on or receiving an incoming call on
>> one of your priority channels, you are not going to hear other
>> communications.
That’s correct…. but the MAYDAY calls captured in the Helmet-Cam were all coming over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel… and that WAS Burfiend’s priority channel.
He also says himself ( TWO TIMES ) in the Helmet-Cam video itself that he WAS hearing those transmissions.
That is not ‘guesswork’ or even ‘opinion’
The very man to whom those radio calls were being addressed says HIMSELF that he was, in fact HEARING them. He was simply choosing to NOT respond for upwards of 2 minutes.
When he finally did choose to respond to ‘Granite Mountain 7’… it was simply to tell them to ‘stop hollering’. Even then he wasn’t even making it a priority to see what they wanted or why they might have been frantically calling HIM.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> So if Dispatch was calling Burfiend to tell him that Wickenburg was
>> out of retardant (guess where I got that from?), Burfiend most certainly
>> would not have heard Steed or Caldwell or whomever it was
>> calling on Tac 1.
I repeat… there is evidence that there MAY have been an ’emergency’ call from GM over a TAC channel that day… but if it happened at all it was PRIOR to the MAYDAY calls captured in Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video.
So if that TAC call PRIOR to the Helmet-Cam really took place… then Yes… Burfiend might have missed it… but even Todd Pedersen seems to suggest THAT call wasn’t even DIRECTED at ‘Air Attack’. If it went out over a TAC channel… it was probably to OPS1 Able ( their Supervisor ) just as Pedersen seems to have suggested.
As for all three MAYDAY calls captured in the Helmet-Cam… ALL of them were coming straight to Burfiend over the Air-To-Ground channel… and he WAS ( by his own admission ) hearing them.
He was simply choosing not to respond to them.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Also, contrary to what some might be suggesting, Burfiend
>> had multiple channels or frequencies to monitor, and he
>> had his hands full (as did Tom French, which is why Tom French
>> wanted to finish his dry run with the VLAT so that he could drop
>> that plane and turn it around quickly). Airguard would obviously
>> be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that.
( Heavy sigh ) Yes. They did.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Next would be air-related dispatch or command channels
>> or frequencies, next would be air-to-ground, next might be
>> a second air-to-ground channel, next would be the air-to-air
>> channels (of which there were multiple), and next would be
>> the tactical channels. Burfiend was incredibly busy once
>> Air Attack left, and my impression (although I have not had
>> time to read all this and catch up) is that not everyone here
>> is aware of that.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
Nope. Doesn’t help at all.
You have your CART way out in front of your HORSE.
Your entire comment is trying to establish multiple reasons why John Burfiend simply may not have ever even HEARD the MAYDAY calls from Granite Mountain.
There is NO QUESTION that he DID actually HEAR them.
He says so himself, in his own words, in the Helmet-Cam video itself.
So your attempt to establish all these reasons why he might NOT have heard them is simply the CART being WAY out in front of the HORSE.
The HORSE himself says he HEARD them.
There is no ‘guesswork’ involved when it comes to the three MAYDAY calls
captured in the Helmet-Cam.
All THREE of THOSE calls were definitely coming straight to Burfiend over the Air-To-Ground channel and the man himself says ( in the video itself ) that he WAS hearing them.
Even Todd Abel verifies with his own call to Burfiend that the very first MAYDAY from Steed was over the ‘Air-To-Ground” channel.
Burfiend was even then ignoring OPS1 Todd Abel, as well as Granite Mountain.
It is only some 2 minutes later, after Burfiend finally responds to yet another call from OPS1 Todd Abel ( and Abel basically tells him to get his head out of his ass and RESPOND to those men who were desperately trying to communicate with him ) does John Burfiend finally ‘wake up’ and make any attempt to talk to them.
It also really makes no difference at all what CHANNEL those MAYDAYS went out on.
Each one of them was VERBALLY specifying WHO the intended target was.
Here are those THREE radio calls from GM again…
—————————————————————–
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
In all three cases… it was obvious WHO they were trying to communicate with… but that person was CHOOSING not to respond to them until he was ORDERED by an Operations level person to do so.
As I have said before many times… I do not personally believe those 2 minutes that were lost that day just trying to get John Burfiend to answer emergency calls on the radio would have made much of a difference on June 30, 2013. Those ‘lost’ two minutes would have been more than enough time to actually pinpoint their location… but I still don’t think ‘Bravo 33′ and VLAT 910 would have been able to help them. It would have still been too late.
But someday… those 2 minutes of simply trying to get someone in an airplane to actually RESPOND to ’emergency’ calls COULD make a difference.
A BIG difference.
Someday ( hopefully not soon ) those TWO full minutes COULD mean the difference between life and death.
Minor correction for above…
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>> Airguard would obviously be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that.
>>
>> ( Heavy sigh ) Yes. They did.
GM7 did NOT actually call out on the actual Air Guard ‘Channel 16’ that day.
They only THOUGHT that was the channel they were using at first.
It makes no difference with relation to this particular discussion.
John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ would have been the designated ‘target’ for ANY calls on either Channel 10 ( A2G ) or Channel 16 ( A2G ).
It also makes no difference because the intended target for ALL of those MAYDAY calls was being verbally NAMED in the calls themselves and everyone who has testified to hearing them has also testified they knew exactly WHO Granite Mountain was desperately trying to communicate with.
Burfiend HEARD those radio calls. He (himself) SAYS that he did.
WTKTT—I fear you are talking to a blank wall that really dose not want to deal with any facts that are not hers, but a well stated rebuttal. Hard to disagree with
what you have said as you have found facts to back it up.
OH I forgot she thinks your some one named Fred who she is not happy with either. Back to our discussion——
There are still a LOT of things that are ‘mysteries’ and remain ‘unknown’ about what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…
…but whether or not the 3 MAYDAY calls that were captured by Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera came over the A2G channel or not… and whether or not the target of those calls ( John Burfiend ) actually HEARD them…
…are NOT part of the ‘mysteries’.
Burfiend (himself) told Todd Abel he heard them ( in real time ).
Burfiend was ( for whatever reason ) not responding to them until he was ORDERED to do so ( by OPS1 Todd Abel ).
Burfiend then later says he thought it was just some Structure Protection Group calling… when it was clearly NOT.
There is an awful lot of critical information that might have been exchanged in those TWO full minutes that is now lost because Burfiend seemed to be the ONLY one hearing those transmissions who did NOT realize this was an EMERGENCY…
…and I still think that, alone, is reason enough for the WFF industry to, once and for all, establish a known MAYDAY / EMERGENCY radio protocol.
Someday… eliminating that kind of confusion for a full TWO minutes might save a life.
Back to our discussion——
I have herd a rumor that there is actually more helmet cam footage
that was cut from the original and will be coming out soon.
I believe it is the beginning footage that was removed by the SAIT investigation but still exists so maybe more answers to come????
I am sure it has already occurred to the lawyers for the families that all THREE of the Bea Day team off-the-radar hires ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) can be ‘compelled to testify’.
Aaron Hulburd shot that ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
HE knows, for sure and certain, WHEN he started filming, exactly WHY he decided to do it, and what ELSE he might have also simply HEARD before and after the filming itself that seemed to compel him to shoot that video.
The SAIT either didn’t feel the need to interview these 3 men ( or they actually DID and they are still concealing that fact ).
ADOSH didn’t interview them because the SAIT made it as difficult as possible for anyone to even figure out that these 3 men were actually THERE and playing a crucial role in both the deployment radio traffic AND the actual location of the bodies.
These men were not just ‘bystanders’ in this incident.
Between their activities on Shrine Road, the Helmet Cam video, and their eventual direct participation in the ground search mission that eventually located the bodies…
…they were KEY WITNESSES to the events of that day.
I’m sure the lawyers for the families know this ( now ).
We shall see what we shall see.
On a lighter note, after the rather pain-filled post I wrote below about the utter complete FAIL that was both this fire’s response and its investigations.
The Erickson Air-Crane “749” N232AC, that was hard at work on the Yarnell Hill Fire (including what looked like a possible near-miss collision with a Tanker DC 10) was given, this year, a new number and a new paint-job.
It now has the number “741” and it’s new name is…..
“Marty” !!!
Here’s a photo of it, in Australia, where the Erickson Air-Cranes regularly fly:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/legoblock/5583869245/
Typo alert:
N232AC should read N243AC.
I’ve found something interesting that I did’t know I had in my vast collection of photos/videos of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Photos of the 4:33 PM retardant drop and the five subsequent drops that connected to it in a continuous line, including the 5:57 T 910 drop.
They’re in Shannon Moore’s set. And Shannon Moore’s “handwritten notes” fairly consistently describe them.
I’ve been trying to “map” them (while I really need to be fixing my kitchen window which is stuck on “wide open” as it’s getting colder every morning), but I’m not that good at doing that. You’re better at that than I am, WTKTT. I’d love to see what you could come up with.
I’ve mapped him (his photos have the GPS data on them) standing at 34°14’32.92″N 112°44’12.09″W; the powerline pole he’s holding in his photos for reference at 34°14’32.11″N 112°44’13.30″W; and the closest rockpile near/behind/kind of to the right of that powerline pole at 34°14’24.29″N 112°44’35.49″W.
I also wish I knew how to “draw” the retardant line we see through Yarnell onto my Google Earth map. That would really help orientate this.
Moore’s photos are in various sub-folders here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AAAsLPbCY40Q6BhCP8znRt3Ha/AerialFirefightingstudy/Moore?dl=0
Moore’s “hand-written notes” are here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AABBOZGM7CAoMByKSOzMfh6Ya/AerialFirefightingstudy/Moore/Moore%20Handwritten%20Notes?dl=0
Panebaker’s log of the drops is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AAC3s2Q9J5Y6VimixoWAFOkfa/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Panebaker%20Photo%20and%20Video%20Information.docx?dl=0
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 3, 2014 at 1:53 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> WTKTT. I’d love to see what you could come up with.
Marti… just wanted to let you know I’m not ignoring this request.
I am flying around on a bunch of airplanes again at the moment
and I will get to this when I can.
Thx! I thought you’d be interested.
I’m sure you’ve noticed how ‘disjointed’ some of those pictures are in the Moore ‘Pictures’ folder with regards to SEQUENCE NUMBER versus TIME.
They sort of ‘jump around in time’ and you can’t rely on the actual filename sequence numbers.
Also…. in just the Moore ‘Pictures’ folder alone… there are THREE different locations where the photos were taken.
ALL of the THREE locations are on the west shoulder of HIghway 89 and at various places along that Maughn Ranch ‘white rail fence’.
The closest location to Yarnell is only 4,695 feet north of the driveway of the U-Store-It Facility there on the norther ourskirts of Yarnell.
I’m still working on a full ‘summary’ ( and the mapping you requested ).
Your own GPS coordinates seem to be correct for that ‘second’ location where Moore was shooting photos. That ‘second’ location ( with the telephone poles in the foreground ) was midway between the other TWO places used for taking photos along Highway 89.
There is no mystery about the drops seen in any of the photos
taken around 2:41 PM to 2:50 PM.
Those are retardant drops that are actually COMPLETING the EASTERN part of that long west-to-east retardant line that ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided was needed as early as 12:30 PM that day.
That’s the retardant line they, themselves, decided to put in clear across that valley after they arrived on the fire and immediately KNEW that the fire was GOING to be headed into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle.
Specifically… these two show the ‘completion’ of the west-east line.
Warbis and Lenmark took it across the valley and then ‘through the hills’ on the eastern side and these photos just show the completion of that long retardant line as they were ‘bringing it through the foothills’ there…
This retardant line as shown in the actual SAIR report ( big red line on one of their maps ) is accurate and these Moore photos show the drops that created that EASTERN end of the ‘red line’ on that SAIR map.
Folder = Moore / Pictures
20130630_Yarnell_SM.JPG – 1441.50 ( 2:41.50 PM )
20130630_Yarnell_SM(1).JPG – 1441.52 ( 2:41.52 PM )
These photo actually shows the completion of that long retardant line that was the idea of ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) shortly after they arrived in Yarnell circa 12:30 PM.
Mackenzie photos IMG_0883 and IMG_0884 both show this same completion of the eastern end of the retardant line.
The Moore photos were at 1441:50-52 ( 2:41.50-52 PM )
IMG_0883 was taken at 1450.30 ( 2:50.30 PM ) ( 8 mins and 38 secs later )
IMG_0884 was taken at 1450.44 ( 2:50.44 PM ) ( 14 seconds after 0883 )
The 2 MacKenzie photos in the 1450 timerange are basically just showing the same drops photographed by Moore from the OPPOSITE ( Highway 89 ) side as that long west-east retardant line was being completed.
More later…
**
** TODD PEDERSEN SPOKE DIRECTLY WITH ‘BRAVO 3’
** DURING DEPLOYMENT SEARCH MISSION
No great revelation here… but an interesting piece of communication.
We already know that Todd Pedersen WAS there in Yarnell at the time of
the deployment so he is now officially on record as the first firefighter to
have reported ( on July 4 ) that there WERE radio communications from
GM just prior to deployment and that he HEARD them.
But in Bravo 3’s ADOSH interview ( Warbis and Lenmark ) there is the
following additional proof that Pedersen was there along with
Helicopter 5KA.
Shortly after the deployment and shortly after Warbis and Lenmark took
over ‘Air Attack’ duties from the departing ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ),
Bravo 3 wanted to know if any helicopters working the fire were ‘rappel
capable’.
‘Bravo 3’ was told to contact Todd Pedersen, who was there with 5KA,
and he then describes the following conversation he had with Pedersen…
—————————————————————-
1930 A or A1: There’s a lot of stuff flying here. We don’t have – these guys get – we pass
1931 ‘em through. They need to be able to land. Um, I ask him if there’s any of the
1932 helicopters the – the command or the agency helicopters that are repel capable.
1933 Um, he lets me know that Price Valley is there that they are, um, there in
1934 town. I ask – I get a hold – he says contact Peterson.
1935
1936 Q: Right.
1937
1938 A or A1: I call Peterson and say hey, man I need to go back. Um, let me know when
1939 you’re repel capable. Ranger 58 is still doing their, um, their search and, you
1940 know, by timeframes there’s just a lot…
1941
1942 Q: Right.
1943
1944 A or A1: You know, when all that all…
1945
1946 Q: Uh-huh.
1947
1948 A or A1: Um…
1949
1950 Q: So you were able to get in touch with Price Valley?
1951
1952 A or A1: I did. I had Peterson…
1953
1954 A or A1: (Unintelligible).
1955
1956 A or A1: He was – they were in the battle. (Unintelligible).
1957
1958 Q: Right.
1959
1960 A or A1: Um, he says we can’t repel anyway ‘cause of winds. I say, you know what,
1961 um, I need ya to go back.
1962
1963 Q: Yeah.
1964
1965 A or A1: You know, you have to tell me when you’re repel capable.
1966
1967 Q: Yeah.
1968
1969 A or A1: Winds (unintelligible) don’t know but if, um, (unintelligible) for…
1970
1971 Q: Yeah.
1972
1973 A or A1: …or to do a (unintelligible) or whatever…
1974
1975 Q: Right.
1976
1977 A or A1: Um, (unintelligible).
1978
1979 Q: Yeah.
1980
1981 A or A1: And they did. They went back.
1982
1983 Q: They did – they did go get, ah…
1984
1985 A or A1: Yeah.
1986
1987 Q: …geared up and they were ready.
1988
1989 A or A1: Yeah, I couldn’t tell ya the timeframe (unintelligible).
1990
1991 Q: Okay – okay.
1992
1993 A or A1: (Unintelligible) were repel capable. Um, (unintelligible) those helicopters are
1994 all ingress/egress. Another Air Attack, in that fray, um, shows up – this is
1995 after we found ‘em.
1996
1997 Q: Right.
1998
1999 A or A1: Helicopter – Ranger 58 calls and says I got packs.
————————————————————————
**
** ERIC MARSH WAS NOT HELPING ‘BRAVO 3’ LAY RETARDANT?
This is related to the information below about how we know it was ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) that decided ‘on their own’ to start laying that long line of retardant out there across that valley from west to east.
They made this decision themselves just after arriving and just after directing some retardant drops around the Double-Bar-A-Ranch where Darrell Wills and his crews were still working and were already getting dangerously close to being ‘entrapped’.
After then taking a spin around the entire fire… they were so sure that Yarnell was going to (quote) “come into play” THAT afternoon… during THAT burn cycle… they decided to start laying that line of retardant because ( in their words ) “Someone had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell”.
Well… this now goes back to discussion way down below and an ‘idea’ that I, myself, had about maybe Eric Marsh had been participating in the laying of this long retardant line… and so Eric Marsh *may* have still believed later in the day that that was his JOB ( as DIVSA ) that day.
My theory was that ( perhaps ) since Marsh had been directing those retardant drops across the valley from about 12:45 PM to 2:00 PM… that he still may have believed it was his RESPONSIBILITY to ‘get to town’ later that afternoon and continue the same work of ‘directing retardant drops on the south end of the fire”.
At this time… I can now say there really is no evidence to support that ‘theory’.
There is no real evidence that DIVSA Eric Marsh was actually ‘participating’, in any way, in the laying of that long line of retardant out there across the valley.
In their ADOSH interview… Warbis and Lenmark make it clear that this was THEIR idea of simply doing SOMETHING to try and prevent what they were sure was inevitable even as early as 12:30 PM that day. That the fire was already ‘switching around’ even that early in the burn cycle and, given the massive fuel loads and the extreme fire conditions, SOMEONE better do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell.
They even detail to ADOSH how they, themselves, decided to use the Skycrane Helicopter to try and ‘connect’ the retardant line out to the black on the western ridge and they would then be using the VLAT that was on scene circa 12:45 PM to start building the retardant line all the way back to the east to just north of the Harper Canyon area.
This is, of course, what then led to that near-fatal accident between the Skycrane and the VLAT.
But even after that near-miss… they still felt it was important to ‘continue that retardant line’ and they also tell ADOSH how they, themselves, were ‘choosing the targets’ at the eastern edge and they were trying to follow an existing Jeep Trail over there on the east as it would its way near the Harper Canyon area and up over those eastern mounds.
NOWHERE in all these descriptions of their plans and activities with regards to the building of this ‘indirect’ retardant line do they ever mention speaking with, or consulting with, ‘Division A’ or anyone named ‘Eric Marsh’.
That whole retardant line was something THEY were doing.
They didn’t need anyone’s advice and there isn’t even any real evidence they asked anyone on the ground for any ‘permission’ to do it.
They do say they ‘discussed their plans’ with ‘Division Z’ ( even though they never knew that his name was ‘Rance Marquez ), but this was the person who was about to ‘disappear’ that day ( from the radio, anyway ) and not even hang around at the south end of the fire to actually manage the very Division he had been assigned.
We also know ( from other testimony ) that DIVSA Eric Marsh apparently heard this conversation between the newly-arrived Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ and the also newly-arrived Division Z Rance Marquez. That is the conversation that then led to the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Marquez when Marquez actually did get to talk to Marsh following his ‘chat’ with ‘Bravo 3’.
Marsh mis-understood what that conversation was even all about. Marquez says he couldn’t contact Marsh at first and so he called up to ‘Air Attack’ to just try and get a ‘heads up’ about what the fire was doing. Marsh thought Marquez was trying to ‘take real-estate away from him’ and, hence, the argument ensued about where the actual boundary between ‘Division A’ and ‘Division Z’ really should be.
All that being said… what I’m pointing out here is that if ‘Bravo 3’ really did discuss their new plan to build that line of retardant across the valley with ‘Division Z’… and that is the same conversation we are told that Marsh overheard and it ‘pissed him off’…. then it is more than likely DIVSA Eric Marsh knew about this plan to build that line of retardant across that valley.
However… there is then NO evidence that Marsh even had any kind of opinion about it… or even felt it was his job as DIVSA to consult with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ about it.
So there really is NO evidence that Marsh was involved, in any way, with this retardant line.
Hence… no real evidence that Marsh could have thought it was his JOB to be directing retardant drops there on the south side of the fire even later that day… or at least no evidence that Marsh would been SO convinced that is why he had to get at least HIMSELF to town even under dangerous conditions that it would explain his ( and Steed’s ) fateful decisions later that day.
I suppose it is still POSSIBLE that ‘getting to town ASAP to direct drops’ COULD have played some part in Marsh’s motivation to ‘get to town’ later that day… but the evidence he might have been thinking that way isn’t found in the ‘Bravo 3’ testimony.
** SO WHAT WAS MARSH REALLY DOING ALL AFTERNOON, THEN?
All of this still now raises another interesting question.
If there is no evidence whatsoever that Eric Marsh thought his ‘job’ as DIVSA out on that western ridge that day was to be helping to lay that west-to-east retardant line… then what WAS he really doing for those several hours between when he met Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown at the anchor point… and then we don’t hear from him again until Brendan is evacuating and Frisby asks him if Blue Ridge should move the GM buggies for them?
Marsh and Steed met with Frisby and Brown for that ‘face-to-face’ for 30 minutes from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM. Frisby and Brown departed back east with Brendan now in the back of the BR UTV and they dropped him off at his lookout position and then continued back east.
After that face-to-face meeting ( 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM )… it has always been assumed that DIVSA Eric Marsh went NORTH on the high-ridge again and was continuing these vague ‘scouting’ duties that the SAIR itself says he was doing that day.
We also know that DURING this ‘face-to-face’ is when Marquez showed up back down in the Sesame area and after Marquez ‘consulted’ with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’… Marsh was all pre-pissed off about what he had heard and then the ‘argument’ with Marquez ensued. They settled that… and we also know that following that is when Eric Marsh made a cellphone call direct to OPS1 Todd Abel to ‘explain’ what had just happened with Marquez.
But even all of that ( including the cellphone call to Abel ) was over with by about 12:45 PM.
The next time DIVSA Eric Marsh really ‘surfaces’ in any radio transmissions is then the moment described in the SAIR when Marsh (supposedly) overheard SPGS1 Gary Cordes and BR Supt Brian Frisby deciding to now concentrate on that ‘Cutover Trail’ towards the Shrine area and try and ‘improve’ that small two-track as a ‘firebreak’.
The SAIR ( and the SAIT notes ) both say that Marsh jumped in and ‘agreed that was a good plan’ and this is now also the moment when Marsh asks Frisby to come all the way up to the high ridge again for another face-to-face meeting.
All of that happened right around 3:32 or 3:34 PM… just AFTER Byron Kimball’s fateful weather report over the TAC channels that the winds were going to switch 180 degrees and be backed by 30-40 MPH winds gusts.
So what was DIVSA Eric Marsh really doing, then, between 12:45 PM and 3:32 PM?
That’s 2 hours and 47 minutes.
That’s an awfully long time for there to be no real record WHERE a crucial ‘Division A’ supervisor was and WHAT he was actually DOING during a very critical time during the burn cycle.
If he really wasn’t participating with ‘Bravo 3’ in the building of that retardant line during the first part of that timeframe… then what WAS he actually ‘doing’ up there for those 2 hours and 47 minutes that day?
Perhaps Brendan McDonough still knows.
This is just another example of the lack of direction and plans by the Overhead team.
The IC and OPS should have been involved in this stupid decision to lay retardant line
spending a large amount of resource and funds that had no chance in hell of stopping the fire
when it started its run. The retardant would have been dried out and of no use by late afternoon. Another Cluster F*** example of a unorganized unsupervised Fire when Air Attack is making its own decisions with out direction from the IC.
Also you refer to marsh and what he was doing, He was doing his job DIVA was responsible for the hand line and anchor point he had 1 crew and not a whole lot else to his division.
Walk the line talk to crew complete assignment. He had no additional responsibility.
Get a anchor point and put the line across the black to hold the fire where it had burned to
and tie into the cat line and BR which was a seperiate DIV. To much line not enough man power the fire in DIVZ outran the line construction The line had no chance of being connected.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 2, 2014 at 8:04 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This is just another example of the lack of direction and plans
>> by the Overhead team. The IC and OPS should have been
>> involved in this stupid decision to lay retardant line spending a
>> large amount of resource and funds that had no chance in hell
>> of stopping the fire when it started its run.
>>
>> The retardant would have been dried out and of no use by
>> late afternoon. Another Cluster F*** example of a unorganized
>> unsupervised Fire when Air Attack is making its own decisions
>> without direction from the IC.
At the end of their ADOSH interview… BOTH Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 ) admitted to the investigators that they KNEW it was basically an act of ‘desperation’.
They said…
“It’s not the place that you would, uh, naturally pick unless there’s – here’s our option. It’s like it’s GONNA go here. ( into Yarnell ). We might as well put some – we’ve got to put SOMETHING – we’ve got to DO SOMETHING. We’ve GOT to put SOMETHING in between, um, town and that fire.”
Even as early as 12:30 PM… they saw NOTHING happening on that south end of the fire that was going to even have a chance of stopping what they were now SURE ( even as early as 12:30 PM ) was going to happen. The fire was GOING to go into Yarnell THAT afternoon.
One Hotshot crew ( GM ) working on a USELESS exercise out on the ridge.
Another Hotshot crew ( BR ) doing absolutely nothing at all.
I guess you can’t blame them for at least TRYING to do SOMETHING.
ADOSH INTERVIEW WITH PAUL LENMARK AND RUSTY WARBIS
—————————————————————–
Q3=Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A=Rusty Warbis
A1=Paul Lenmark
A2=Alex Viscusi ( Attorney for Warbis / Lenmark )
—————————————————————–
4245 Q3: I seen the indirect line ( of retardant ) and always wondered what was
4246 that thing about. I always wondered the first time I saw it, “What is that?”
4247 thing all about
4248
4249 A or A1: (Unintelligible). You know something, in a regular situation you would never
4250 go that indirect in that fuel pipe with retardant, right? I mean…
4251
4252 Q3: Yeah.
4253
4254 A or A1: …it’s not the place that you would, uh, naturally pick unless there’s – here’s our
4255 option. It’s like it’s gonna go here. ( into Yarnell ). We might as well put some – we’ve got to
4256 put something – we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to put something in
4257 between, um, town and that fire.
4258
4259 A or A1: Right.
———————————————————
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Also you refer to marsh and what he was doing,
>> He was doing his job.
>> DIVA was responsible for the hand line and anchor point.
>> He had 1 crew and not a whole lot else to his division.
>> Walk the line. Talk to crew. Complete assignment.
>> He had no additional responsibility.
I think I’m going to disagree with you there.
It doesn’t matter how many ‘crews’ he had working for him that day.
He was a ‘Division Supervisor’ on the fire and he was ALSO responsible for the SAFETY of ALL crews under his command.
The MOMENT this ‘Division Supervisor’ became aware that the ‘plan’ cooked up FIVE hours earlier in the day ( at 7:00 AM ) just wasn’t going to work… I believe he had a RESPONSIBILITY to comprehend that and get those men the heck OUT of there.
Even as early as 12:30 PM… some very professional and experienced Air Support men took one look at what Granite Mountain was doing and they KNEW it was ‘pointless’ based on what the fire had already been doing all morning.
At NO time was that ‘plan’ they were actually working on expected to result in a west-to-east burnout operation until later that EVENING… after the day’s burn cycle and the winds died down enough for a safe ‘burnout’.
So the MOMENT it became obvious that was never going to happen… I believe he had a RESPONSIBILITY to shut down that worthless effort and get his ‘Division resources’ the heck out of there.
I can still see GMIHC Superintendent Jesse Steed just staying ‘nose to the ground’ on the assignment from the morning until told anything different… but his ‘Division A’ should have realized the pointlessness of GM’s efforts MUCH earlier that day and gotten them back to their rigs in time to evacuate along with everyone else.
Marsh wasn’t the only one who seemed to be fantasizing all afternoon that this ‘plan’ from 7:00 AM that morning was ever going to ever have a chance at coming together. SPGS1 Gary Cordes seemed to have spent the rest of the afternoon believing the same fantasy and was, himself, still asking BR Supt Brian Frisby about the chances of ‘burning that line’ even WHILE Frisby was already beginning to evacuate his own men, in the nick of time.
Ditto for OPS1 Todd Abel.
During those 2 hours and 47 minutes when we have no idea WHERE ‘Division A’ Eric Marsh was or WHAT he was actually even DOING… the Air Support was busy working on their own wortheless plan to stop the fire from coming into Yarnell THAT day… and you would think OPS1 would have ( somewhere in those nearly 3 hours ) had an ‘honest’ conversation with his own DIVSA on the SOUTH side of the fire about whether the plan from the morning even had a chance in hell.
It didn’t happen.
Even though ‘Air Attack’ already KNEW what was going to happen later… OPS1 Abel, DIVSA Marsh and SPGS1 Cordes just seemed oblivious for another THREE HOURS and kept pretending that 7:00 AM plan was no longer worthless.
Once again… I am calling this a MASSIVE DISCONNECT between Air and Ground support and one of the leading causes of the tragedy that happened later.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Get a anchor point and put the line across the black to
>> hold the fire where it had burned to and tie into the cat line
>> and BR which was a seperiate DIV. Too much line not enough
>> man power
There is no doubt that the minute IC Roy Hall and Field OPS1 Todd Abel learned that the Arroyo Hotshots were not going to make it to the fire… they should have reevaluated even the chance of that ‘plan’ coming together on the south side of the fire…
…but in a way… it wasn’t even about the ‘lack of manpower’.
When Bravo 3 evaluated the situation from the Air at 12:30 PM… the other Hotshot crew that WAS already there ( Blue Ridge ) was still doing absolutely NOTHING.
They weren’t even already ‘cleaning up’ the sections of line that the dozer had already pushed. They were all just sitting around twiddling their thumbs while their Supervisor and Captain went bombing around in their little 4-wheeler.
That’s what contributed to Bravo 3’s decision that SOMEBODY had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell… and that the crews they were seeing on the ground down there ( GM and BR ) should either ENGAGE in some useful way… or get the hell out of there… and this was still only 12:30 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The fire in DIVZ outran the line construction
Yep. Pretty much exactly the way ‘Air Attack’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) knew that it would as early as 12:30 PM that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The line had no chance of being connected.
Nope… and that should have been obvious very earl on.
We still don’t even know what Marsh and Frisby talked about during that first face-to-face meeting other than exchanging Gatorades and bitching about the piss-poor briefings and bad radio clones.
Did Marsh and Frisby even TALK about this whole ‘plan’, and whether it had a chance in hell of succeeding that day?
Did Marsh ( DIVSA ) already know ( circa NOON ) that the Arroyo Hotshots weren’t even going to ever show up that day to help with this massive line building?
Brendan McDonough knows what they really talked about.
He was standing right there and left that meeting with Frisby.
Division A was Marshes DIV. He had that responsibility OPS made the decisions to move or stay on assignment not Marsh. Chain of command is what it is.
Marsh was responsible for the safety of his people as you say but they were never in trouble till they moved. They had safe black no reason to move off of assignment. there line was next to cold black move up into it at any time and your safe. at no time were they in any threat on there assignment. They were basically on cold black line building a hand line for containment and control. No matter what the rest of the fire was doing that was GM and Marsh’s assignment.
Also I would not take the word of Air craft on what crews were doing I seriously doubt they were sitting all day doing nothing a fly over now and then dose not give an indication of what the BR crew was doing.
A crew working with a cat has its own unique problems clear and then wait as the cat works it is a stop and move thing so that could look like they were just sitting around at times.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 2, 2014 at 6:25 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Division A was Marshes DIV.
>> He had that responsibility
>> OPS made the decisions to move or stay
>> on assignment not Marsh.
>> Chain of command is what it is.
Well.. apparently NOT on June 30, 2013.
OPS did make a decision ‘to move or stay’. It was ‘stay’.
We can hear that ourselves in the Caldwell video.
Marsh (eventually) ignored that uplevel ‘chain of command’ decision and decided to abandon his Division and go to town, anyway.
Unless, of course, there are a lot of conversations that took place AFTER he was told to ‘hunker and be safe’ that we simply don’t even know about yet.
If that really is Todd Abel asking Marsh if he could ‘hurry up’ and get to town a little faster in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video… then obviously there were more conversations between Abel and Marsh that we are totally unaware of…. such as the one where Abel himself changed his mind and then gave Marsh ‘permission’ to NOT ‘hunker and be safe’ like he had told him too and now wanted him to ‘get to town’.
If that is NOT Todd Abel telling Marsh to ‘hurry up’ in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video or, indeed, if those two snippets of como are actually not directly related… then Marsh was STILL ‘informing’ someone that he had decided to NOT ‘hunker and be safe’ as he was told to do and someone else on the fire WAS perfectly aware he was ‘abandoning his Division’ at 1627 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Marsh was responsible for the safety of his people as
>> you say but they were never in trouble till they moved.
Exactly. Everything was fine… until all of sudden it WASN’T…
All I was saying above is that if the ultimate ‘goal’ for the risky move out of the black was simply to ‘get to town’… then it really should have happened earlier… and if it was anyone’s job out there to realize that ‘the plan’ just wasn’t going to come together that day and it was time to ‘reposition’ ‘Division A’ resources… it was DIVSA Marsh’s.
He seems to have hung on to the idea that that plan from 7:00 AM that morning was still a viable one for FAR too long that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They had safe black no reason to move off of assignment.
Unless that assignment becomes POINTLESS… as it became long before they actually took that walk in unburned fuel.
‘Bravo 3’ thought whatever they were doing was POINTLESS as early as 12:30 PM that day. They were sticking to a 5 hour old plan that was obviously never going to ‘come together’ and even at 12:30 PM Air Attack thought they were just ‘staged’ out there waiting for someone to give them another assignment.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their line was next to cold black move up into it at
>> any time and your safe. at no time were they in any
>> threat on there assignment. They were basically
>> on cold black line building a hand line for containment
>> and control. No matter what the rest of the fire was doing
>> that was GM and Marsh’s assignment.
They achieved neither ‘containment’ or ‘control’… and Air Attack could see they were NOT going to be able to do either from where they were as early as 12:30 PM that day. Plenty of time to ‘do something else’.
I guess what I was really, truly wondering is regardless of whether or not DIVSA Eric Marsh was out there practicing the military-style “Hold until relieved” assignment style… I really was just wondering WHAT he was ACTUALLY DOING for those 2 hours and 47 minutes that afternoon.
Yes… they seemed to still think the plan from the morning was viable or that the ‘tie up’ and the ‘burnout’ was still possible later that evening, or something…
…but even in that case… I wonder WHAT Marsh was actually DOING.
It’s already pretty well documented that the ONLY time Marsh was physically with the crew that day was when they first arrived up there after their hike and Marsh ‘re-briefed’ Jesse Steed… and then again from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM when Marsh and Steed were meeting face to face with Frisby and Brown.
There is no evidence DIVSA Marsh was ‘hanging around’ where GM was working and ‘walking the line’ as you seem to have suggested.
The documentation just keeps saying he was ‘off scouting’ for most of the day.
Scouting WHAT? There’s no evidence any ‘scouting’ to the south took place until (perhaps) AFTER the decision to head SOUTH and Marsh *might* have been acting as ‘forward scout/lookout’ as they marched towards their deaths.
So if Marsh really was never with Steed and GM for ‘most of the day’… what was he really DOING for those mysterious 2 hours and 47 minutes when no one seems to be reporting any communications or conversations with him whatsoever?
Was he just calling Steed on the intra-crew every 15 minutes ( for almost 3 hours ) and just kept asking “Are you done yet?”.
Something tells me there MUST have been some other communications between OPS and one of their primary ‘Division Supervisors’ in that almost 3 hour timeframe that simply haven’t been reported yet.
If that isn’t the case… and OPS really was totally ignoring ‘Division A’ for almost 3 hours during the critical burn cycle and really didn’t give a shit WHERE he was or WHAT he was doing for those 3 hours… then that itself seems to be another ‘moment of FAIL’ that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Also I would not take the word of Air craft on what
>> crews were doing
I’m not ( taking their word for it ).
The fact that the Blue Ridge CREW itself had no real ‘assignment’ whatsoever all day up until that backup plan of improving the Cutover Trail came into play WAY late in the afternoon is already fully documented in the evidence record and fully confirmed by the unredacted portions of Blue Ridge’s own Unit Logs.
Until they played ‘musical vehicles’ and moved all their rigs from where they were told to go in the morning ( the Sesame clearing area ) over to the Shrine Youth camp… the CREW itself had ‘nothing to do’ and they were just ‘staged’ next to their Crew Carriers most of the day.
Even when they finally got ‘spread out’ on that Cutover Trail way late in the afternoon… they had only been ‘at work’ for a few minutes before it was time to hightail it back to the Youth Camp and evacuate.
BR Hotshot Ball got assigned to Justin Hernandez and the dozer that morning ( because the primary dozer that showed up had an operator with neither the proper qualifications OR even a radio with him ).
Frisby and Brown were, in fact, very active most of the day… but that was all just more ‘scouting’ and ‘bombing around’ Yarnell in their four-wheeler and ( sometimes ) their own Chse vehicle.
The Blue Ridge CREW itself did NOT really have anything to do all day long and even when someone finally put them to work out on that Cutover Trail… that only lasted a few minutes and they had to turn around and evacuate.
So what ‘Bravo 3’ SAW circa 12:30 PM and was REPORTING to ADOSH in their interview is accurate and well-documented.
They DID see ‘crew buggies’ out there in the flat… ( The Blue Ridge buggies ) but the crews themselves were NOT ENGAGING the fire or doing anything at all.
The whole time the Blue Ridge crew was ‘parked’ in the Sesame clearing area ( which is where they still were at 12:30 PM )… they were doing absolutely nothing but waiting for someone to give them something to DO.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I seriously doubt they were sitting all day doing nothing
It’s TRUE.
The Blue Ridge CREW did basically nothing all day except ‘stage’ at up to FIVE different places ( Model Creek ICP, Yarnell Fire Station, Sesame clearing, then Shrine Road Youth Camp, then Ranch House Restaurant ).
The ONLY time they actually ‘tooled up’ and even tried to do anything useful was for those few minutes they were spread out on the Cutover Trail with the intention of just ‘improving the dozer push’. That ‘work’ only lasted a few minutes and it was time evacuate and go ‘stage’ at yet another place ( and still do nothing at all ) called the Ranch House Restaurant.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A fly over now and then dose not give an indication of
>> what the BR crew was doing.
Normally… probably not…. but in this case what ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 3 saw circa 12:30 was absolutely TRUE.
The BR crew was doing NOTHING but hanging around their Crew Carriers in the Sesame clearing.
From Bravo 3’s ADOSH testimony
——————————————-
1136 A or A1: Do you remember who you were talking to about that ‘cause right out in the
1137 middle of that flat, there was a dozer and a buggy.
1138
1139 A or A1: A couple buggies.
1140
1141 A or A1: A couple crew buggies. They were sitting out there and it was like. I
1142 remember it’s like going okay, are they gonna enga- I mean, they either need
1143 to…
1144
1145 Q: They need to get ‘em outta there.
1146
1147 A or A1: They need to do SOMETHING. They need to ENGAGE.
——————————————-
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A crew working with a cat has its own unique problems
>> clear and then wait as the cat works it is a stop and
>> move thing so that could look like they were just
>> sitting around at times.
I’m sure all of that is true ( and even the photos from the Crossover trail show that when they finally got ‘spread out’ there to even begin doing something useful that day they WERE working close to the dozer )…
…but as far as the entire morning and much of the afternoon goes… the BR Crew weren’t even anywhere NEAR the dozer.
They were just standing around by their Crew Carriers waiting for someone to give them something to DO.
To me… this is still all about WHY two men in an airplane could arrive over Yarnell and as early as 12:30 PM they seemed to know TWO things…
1) The fire was going to go into Yarnell THAT day. Within hours.
2) No one on the SOUTH side of the fire seemed to be doing ANYTHING about protecting Yarnell… or at least nothing that was going to make any difference at all.
Yet then we have DIVSA Marsh, GM, Blue Ridge and Cordes still believing ( for the rest of the afternoon ) that a plan to finish a fire break and ‘burn it off’ later that evening was still ‘the work’ they should be doing.
It’s simply a MASSIVE DISCONNECT between what the Air Support knew and what the Ground Support did NOT seem to know.
First we were talking about Marsh’s responsibility and leaving the assignment at noon, Even when the Crew moved out of the black they were in no danger from the fire. There line and the construction of it was then not achievable.
WE agree What Marsh did later was on his own.
As for BR the reasons for what ever they were doing need to be referred to Frisby and Brown.
What’s bugging me most, as I’ve been rolling all of this around in my mind is:
WHY, when Bravo 3, acting as Air Attack, saw what they saw and determined what they determined, given the ENORMITY of that, did they just pass that on to one Division Supervisor (and not even the one Division Supervisor who MATTERED) and not POUND on the DOOR of COMMAND (either OPS 1 or OPS 2 or IC and/or FBAN or ALL of them) and make sure THEY knew and understood what Air Attack was seeing and determining and the enormity of that??????
Instead, THEY, in turn, chose to EQUALLY waste a whole lot of time and resources doing something THEY knew would, most likely, be equally INEFFECTIVE when that fire turned around and headed towards Yarnell (after the red paint dried but before the sun set), endangering not only Yarnell, but all the CREWS in its path???
I’m wracking my brain trying to recall a similar situation on another fire.
The closest I get is the Steep Corner Fire, when a Hotshot Crew turned down an assignment because they deemed it unsafe (not because they deemed it ineffective). They wrote down their “Violations of the 10 and 18” and presented that list to the IC, who promised to mitigate them. Then they left, and then reported it to SafeNet that very day.
The next day, a member of a Hotshot Crew who took on the (un-mitigated) assignment, was killed by a falling snag, exactly what the earlier crew saw and deemed “too unsafe to work here.”
When my dad was the Weather Wizard for the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta (which starts up tomorrow), and his analysis of the weather indicated unsafe flying conditions, he didn’t have the authority, and thus, the power to stop the launch. But he DID have the authority, and thus the power, and thus (in his mind) the RESPONSIBILITY to issue a VERY BIG WARNING about it to the people deciding the GO-NO-GO.
And, if they disregarded his warning, which they often did (because $$$$$$$$$$) he had the authority/power/responsibility to make a VERY BIG STINK about it. Which he DID, every time it happened……BEFORE (including to the pilots), DURING (including to the pilots), and AFTER (including to the pilots) he headed off the field to drink coffee, eat a burrito, chat with everybody, and OBSERVE the consequences, some of which were sometimes FATAL.
That was HIS JOB. He knew there were lives at stake.
Didn’t Bravo 3, Air Attack, after their observations indicated the work/lack-of-work going on in that south-west sector was seriously ineffective in regards to the fire that they predicted was going to turn around THAT AFTERNOON, and thus UNSAFE for the crews doing it…….
have a SIMILAR kind of authority, power, and thus RESPONSIBILITY to issue an EQUALLY BIG WARNING to the people with the authority, power, and thus RESPONSIBILITY to determine ” GO-NO-GO,” and, if they disregarded that, to EQUALLY warn the crews that were in harm’s way in the path of it?????
So, instead they issued ONE in-effective warning directed to ONE in-effective person, and then proceeded to join everybody else in the mythical plan to in-effectively pretend to be doing something about it???
Or am I missing something?
Addendum.
My dad was the AIBF Weather Wizard for 16 years. Because of the way he understood and did his job, he was highly trusted and beloved by all the pilots and crews.
Also, because of the way he understood and did his job, he was fired after his 16th year of doing it. They weren’t paying him anyway, but he definitely felt stabbed in the back, and so he made a VERY BIG STINK about that, too. So did the pilots and crews, who trusted him with their lives. It broke his heart deeply.
We never went back to the field of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta.
Additional addendum.
The next year after my dad was fired, three people were killed in a balloon crash after inaccurate and, thus, in-effective, weather forecasting.
Marti… when the ADOSH / WFA investigators realized the significance of what this official Yarnell ‘Air Attack’ group was telling them with regards to what THEY knew and how EARLY they knew it that day… they did make attempts to determine WHO they passed this critical Intel on to.
Those parts of the interview remain rather disjointed and confusing.
Again… more FAIL going on.
They didn’t even seem to have the interviewing skills to pull from these men the clear answers to their own questions.
There IS a point where they SEEMED to be saying they passed on what they knew as early as 12:30 PM to ‘operations’ but nothing as specific as OPS1 or OPS2 or never any names. They never knew any names other than some note they had made to themselves after arriving about some guy named ‘Darrell’ was supposed to be their ‘primary contact’ on that north side of the fire.
The only actual PERSON the ADOSH / WFA investigators were able to nail down as at least one recipient of this critical 12:30 PM Intel was ‘Division Z’… and even in that case Warbis and Lenmark themselves had absolutely no idea his NAME was ‘Rance Marquez’.
What further complicates all this is that there doesn’t seem to be ANY mention of this critical Intel report from ‘Air Attack’ cica 12:30 PM in anyone else’s testimony… Todd Abel and Rance Marquez included.
Again… more FAIL at the investigation level.
If the interview with ‘Bravo 3’ came ‘late’ in the process and they only then learned about some of these crucial things AFTER previous interviews.. then they needed to call some of those other people BACK and do some followup questioning.
Apparently… that never happened.
That’s partly why I really wish they had supplied the audio.
You can’t tell who’s saying what.
There’s no indication of voice-tone and thus emotion. And thus significance, etc.
I have no reason to believe the interview is even transcribed accurately.
Reading is better than not reading, but listening is even better.
And thanks for pulling it up and drawing our attention to it. I hadn’t even downloaded it yet.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
October 3, 2014 at 2:16 pm
>> Marti said….
>>
>> That’s partly why I really wish they
>> had supplied the audio.
Me too.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You can’t tell who’s saying what.
Correct. It SEEMS to be mostly Rusty Warbis ‘speaking’ throughout the interview with Paul Lenmark just ‘chiming in’ every now and then to mostly just VERIFY thiings Warbis just said… but without the recording it’s hard to be 100 percent sure.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There’s no indication of voice-tone and thus
>> emotion. And thus significance, etc.
There are also a LOT of ‘missing’ parts that are just labelled as “unintelligible” in the transcription.
Some of these “unintelligible” sections come at some pretty crucial times in the interview and right in the middle of some pretty crucial statements.
I really wish we had that recording.
Are these sections really all that “unintelligible”… or was someone simply not trying hard enough?
You said:
“Those parts of the interview remain rather disjointed and confusing.
Again… more FAIL going on.
They didn’t even seem to have the interviewing skills to pull from these men the clear answers to their own questions.”
That really reminds me of the sense I got from their interviews with Shumate regarding the humongous FAIL regarding ordering the Type 2 Short Incident Management Team.
They wandered around and around about this, but just didn’t seem to be able to nail it. They sensed there was something wrong here, but couldn’t quite articulate it.
Fortunately the group of retired wildland firefighters who wrote their ADOSH report totally DID understand what the problem with that was, and extensively documented it.
Their report, I think, became the basis for ADOSH’s harsh charges against Arizona Department of Forestry.
The lawsuits are going to be, accurately, IMHO, focused on Arizona Department of Forestry’s HUGE failings in this entire arena.
But I’m guessing they didn’t have time to carefully look at THIS part of the whole fatal fiasco.
But, as Bob Powers has written below regarding how “most IC’s rely on the eyes in the sky” (i.e. Air Attack), and how:
“That’s why after IA a team comes in with a plan and implements or changes it each shift so you have a day shift plan and a night shift plan so every one is on the same page.
Covers Map. Zones’ Divisions, Strike Teams Who is in charge of what,”
I still believe Bravo 3 had the authority, power, and responsibility, when they realized, around 12:15 PM, the fire was going to turn itself around and head towards Yarnell THAT AFTERNOON (endangering both the town and the CREWS), even though they had received that fire without adequate briefing from Rory Collins or the IMT as to who was IN CHARGE of it (as Bob wrote, in my above quote. should have been done), to have, done ALL within their power to NOTIFY and seriously WARN both Incident Command and the Crews in danger as to the SEVERITY of the situation that they were OBSERVING.
Instead, they chose to acquiesce in the costly mythological strategy of attempting to do something that would turn out to be (for their own foreseeable reasons) as equally in-effective as everything else that was being done in that area that day.
Really, how much time would it have taken them to actually FIND OUT who the Incident Commander was, who the OPS were, who the FBAN was, and get on the radio and WARN THEM about what they had determined by 12:15 PM??? Five or ten minutes?
Instead they spent how much time putting in a retardant line that both they and the retired firefighters who wrote the ADOSH report judged was most likely to have been in-effective in protecting either Yarnell or the firefighters whose lives were in danger.
I’m really having a hard time (after finally figuring out how to fix my kitchen window) conjuring up a more completely. totally FAILED, on a bazillion levels, including two investigations of it, response to and attack of a wildland fire than the one we are looking at–the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Which, IMHO, all things considered, doesn’t absolve the leadership of the Granite Mountain Hotshots of their responsibility for their still inexplicable decision to head down into a bowl filled with explosive fuel as that fire was turning around and heading right exactly into it.
I’m just narrating how the entire stage was set to, most likely, enable a WHOLE BUNCH of seriously dangerous things to happen.
I do not understand the lack of communications between Air Attack and the IC.
Unless it was just a lack of respect by one or the other
The IC is suppose to be in control of the fire and making the decisions.
Air Attack should be in contact with the IC at all times
if they note a serious change in the fire activity then they need to be keeping the IC up to date on their analyses of what is going to happen that is the way it usually works.
Again the lack of leadership by the IC keeps jumping out at me on this Fire. The OPS seemed to fall into the same trap were they really that highly qualified?
GM and many others made there own decisions because no one else was truly making any direct supervisory decisions for them.
This in turn caused the steam rolling effect of many people having near misses in burn overs that ended with 19 dead fire fighters.
Strong people need to lead a Fire Team.
and we are back to the military thing again Chain of command and the ability to lead direct and make decisions on the run. The buck stops here.
You are right on,,,,,,,,,
Also most IC’s rely on the eyes in the sky why were there not more discussions on what AA saw?????
I appreciate your response.
I wasn’t sure if I was expecting them to do something unusual or “out of bounds.”
The lack of accurate briefing of in-coming overhead as to who the relevant IMT overhead is really mystifies me.
I’m hoping THAT’s not SOP either.
Lack of a written plan had a lot to do with the dysfunction. The Briefing probably missed a lot a written copy of the shift plan covers all.
That’s why after IA a team comes in with a plan and implements or changes it each shift so you have a day shift plan and a night shift plan so every one is on the same page.
Covers Map. Zones’ Divisions, Strike Teams Who is in charge of what,
The IC, and all overhead under him or her for each shift. List of all crews equipment air craft tractors names and assignments broke down by divisions.
This is a twice a day plan with weather forecast included.
Didn’t happen on Yarnell————-
**
** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS REPORTED THE FIRE WAS
** ‘SWITCHING’ AND WAS NOW BURNING BOTH NORTH AND EAST
** AS EARLY AS 11:01 AM ON JUNE 30, 2013
This is a Followup to the message below that reprints the exact testimony of ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) about HOW and WHY they knew, even as early as 12:30 PM, that the fire was already ‘switching’ and it was GOING to be headed towards Yarnell THAT afternoon… during THAT day’s burn cycle… and that they better try and DO something about it even as early as 12:30 PM.
Even a full HOUR before ‘Bravo 3′ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived on the Yarnell Hill Fire to relieve Air Attack Rory Collins so he could go refuel… Air Attack Rory Collins himself informed Dispatch that the Yarnell fire was already ‘swtiching’ and was now moving both NORTH and EAST at the same time.
‘Bravo 3′ arrived around NOON and saw the same thing right away… and that is why the moment after they did those initial retardant drops to help support Darrell Willis ( at his direction ) at the Double-Bar-A-Ranch they looked over the entire situation from the air and realized that the fire was GOING to be heading into Yarnell THAT afternoon ( not tomorrow, like some people were still thinking around NOON that day ).
As they sized up the situation ( from the air ) on that SOUTH end of the fire, towards Yarnell, all they saw was a Hotshot crew out on a western ridge ( Granite Mountain ) that was ( in their words ) “Already out of play” and they just assumed GM was simply ‘staged’ out there and waiting for some other assignment… and another Hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting around by their Crew Carriers doing absolutely nothing ( circa 12:15 PM ).
In their own words… they said no one ‘down there’ on the south end of the fire seemed to be ENGAGING and they needed to either do that or get both themselves AND their ‘rigs’ out of there.
So that’s when THEY ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided that since THEY were now ‘Air Attack’. for this critical time at even just the start of the afternoon burn cycle… THEY better try and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell.
That is when they decided ( on their own ) to start laying that long retardant line from west to east across the valley. This is the one seen in Parker and MacKenzie photos stretching across the ‘valley’.
Even they admitted to ADOSH that it was, in fact, highly unusual to just start laying a line of retardant like that down the middle of ( quote ) “a fuel pipe”… but that’s how strongly they felt even circa 12:30 PM that no one was doing ANYTHING on that south end to try and protect Yarnell and someone had to do SOMETHING.
Here is the proof ( from the Dispatch logs themselves ) that even AA Rory Collins knew at 11:01 AM that the fire was now burning BOTH North AND East at the same time…
From the “I-Dispatch Records” PDF file in the SAIR FOIA/FOIL release…
PDF page 39 ( of 97 pages )…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 11:01.58 AM
From: AA ( Air Attack Rory Collins )
To: ALH
Message: FIRE IS APPROX 500 AC AND MOVING TO THE NORTH
AND EAST AT THIS TIME.
A direct link to this ‘I-Dispatch Records” document is below…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAReNxWTP2ditFy7LMT31Spa/Dispatch%20Records/I-Dispatch%20Records.pdf?dl=0
Thanks to WTKTT and Bob Powers for all you’ve been writing here. Which I will probably comment on.
I’ve spent the past three days looking after my mom, who is in a skilled nursing facility, while trying to figure out how to navigate the week-and-a-half-old deconstruction/reconstruction zone which is my driveway. and then fleeing back to my office, shutting the doors to buffer the noise of it all, and watching Helitack Crew Videos on YouTube, trying to gain an understanding of how these crews and their helicopters/pilots interact and work together.
And reading what WTKTT wrote from the dispatch orders for Price Valley Helitack and 5KA. And thank you for that.
Not to mention what you wrote (YIKES!!) about what Brave 3 said about figuring out by 12:15 PM that the Yarnell Fire was surely going to turn and head to Yarnell and that, therefore, the focus needed to be about EVACUATING YARNELL. Wasn’t there a Fire Behavior Analyst on this fire? Was he not listening on Air to Ground to what they were saying? I would have LOVED to have HEARD that interview, but, alas, ADOSH didn’t provide the audio of it.
So, anyway, back to Price Valley Rappell Helitack, the gold standard of Fire Fighting Crews (since they are, essentially, Hotshots with Helicopters.)
The more I”m thinking about it, after watching muchos videos, the more I think it didn’t matter that the crew buggy broke down and was delayed. I’m thinking the fire-fighters in that crew buggy were peripheral to what was happening.
For a couple of reasons.
These teams travel with, not only a crew buggy, but also a “chase truck,” usually pulling a trailer that has a lot of equipment in it. Price Valley had one of those. I just did a quick look at the photos I have of 5KA on the helibase. I haven’t seen that chase truck, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there or somewhere nearby. Those are the folks who would have attached/unattached the bambi bucket, kept an eye on maintenance issues. and done stuff like that. They don’t leave stuff like that to just whoever happens to be hanging around the Helibase.
The other thing I’ve seen is that, usually the Team Supervisor/Helicopter Manager flies up in front with the pilot in the helicopter. The helicopter, and its pilot, is not, actually, “in charge” of what happens. The helicopter Manager is. The helicopter is a “tool” of the Crew, not the other way around. The Crew (via the Manager/Supervisor) is in charge of, and responsible for, the strategies/tactics of the helicopter. This is a pretty tight thing here, and they have to carefully balance their skills and knowledge as they do this.
And, not only is the helicopter/pilot not actually “in charge” of the helicopter (strategically speaking), but neither is the Incident Commander, OPS, Air Attack, or the Lead Pilot. It’s like how Jesse Steed, as acting Granite Mountain Supervisor was “in charge” of Granite Mountain, no matter what anybody else “said.” (Including, at that point, Eric Marsh).
The Team Supervisor/Helicopter Manager (in this case Todd Pederson) was the overall Supervisor of the helicopter. The pilot was working for him. What finally snapped into focus tonight was that it would make sense that Todd Pederson could have very likely been flying inside 5KA, alongside its pilot, as “they” were “protecting structures” in the Model Creek Road area.
He never said he was doing that “on the ground.”
That could also explain why the major players on the ground never mentioned that crew or him in their narratives.
The rest of the crew may never have even been there. And Todd Pederson would also not have been visible to those major players who were there, either.
I’ve been really wracking my brain to make sense of this, and I think this finally makes sense.
And, in my mind, the agonizing irony of it all is that Price Valley Heli-Rappell Helitack and 5KA could, IMHO, have put out the Yarnell Hill Fire on Saturday in a blink of an eye, relatively speaking.
If it had only been a FS fire. The State used there resources in IA.
Yep. The State Incident Command structure. apparently, way belatedly, just happened to order up a federal resource, that just happened to have been positioned nearby. that could have, most likely, figured out how to nail this fire before it got out of control, way before the State Incident Command structure lost control of it.
There has got to be some kind of Lessons Learned to be learned here. But I have no reason to believe, all things considered, that will happen.
Video: “Helicopter – Iron 44 Dedication Part 1”
Includes footage of the body of USFS Pilot Inspector Jim Ramage being loaded onto N215KA by fire-fighters, probably including Price Valley Helitack.
2008 (the first year of the 5-year contract which ended last year–they have a different helicopter this year).
http://youtu.be/_cXUvlw2_aU
Marti another great summation of how a Helicopter works.
You are right on almost every thing.
A couple of points—-
The Pilot has final say on if the Helicopter can do a mission based on Safety and ability.
The Manager or other crew do not ride with the Pilot when he is doing Sling loads or water drops. do to Load weights.
For Them to be doing Water drops there Chase truck would have had to be at the Fire as it carries all the equipment. The crew carrier caries the rest of the crew in this case all the rappellers like as you said a Hot Shot crew type just less than 20 Crewmen.
Two quick points about ‘drop chops’ and ‘chase trucks’ at Yarnell…
When DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter was ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell on Sunday morning… someone told them they would be needed for recon flights but that same someone ALSO told them they *might* be needed for water drops.
So DPS Ranger 58 came to Yarnell fully ready to do ‘bucket drops’ with a bambi bucket loaded into the back of the helicopter itself.
Ranger 58 had a ‘fuel truck’ which was being driven to Yarnell… but the bambi bucket was simply stuffed into the back of the chopper.
When Ranger 58 arrived in Yarnell around 9:30 AM… Field OPS1 Todd Abel and Planning OPS2 Paul Musser has just finished with the big 9:00 AM briefing at the Model Creek School ICP and they wanted to go up for a ‘look around’.
Ranger 58 depositions then say they quickly unloaded the ‘bambi bucket’ from the back of the helicopter to get ready for the ‘recon’ flight.
Ranger 58 was never used for any bucket drops that day.
It was ONLY used for 2 recon flights… and then the search mission following the deployment.
I guess my point here is that even though it seems to be normal for a bambi bucket to be onboard a ‘chase truck’… it IS possible for a chopper to just carry that onboard, correct?
Ranger 58 did.
There is also plenty of footage taken by both the News 20 media chopper ( piloted by Sam Farris ) and the ABC 15 ‘Air 15’ chopper that shows Helicopter 5KA actually dipping water from the Horseshoe dip.
There are no ‘ground personnel’ seen at all.
So I suppose it’s possible that even Helicopter 5KA had its bambi bucket onboard when it arrived in Yarnell and the pilot of 5KA really was doing the drop work by himself that day.
We KNOW that at least Todd Pedersen was there by the time the deployment traffic hit the radio… because he was the first firefighter to even admit to the media ( on July 4 ) that there WAS, in fact, radio traffic from Granite Mountain right before the deployment.
Maybe only the pilot of 5KA and Pedersen ‘arrived’ in Yarnell that morning, with the bambi bucket stuffed in the back like Ranger 58.
Good research the Helicopters travel like that so right on.. Depends on dip location if they need a ground person..
I understand what Bob Powers is saying, that Todd wouldn’t have been IN 5KA, as it’s doing bucket drops, because of weight considerations. Although his weight might not be all that significant, all things considered. But I’ll defer to Bob’s experience here.
And we don’t have any visual evidence of any support crew at the helibase or the Horseshoe Dip.
And we still have Todd saying “we” were doing structure protection in the Model Creek area.
So here’s another possible scenario.
I can’t imagine a helicopter from Idaho flying down to Yarnell from Prescott to spend a day fighting a fire without its critical support team, i.e the chase truck with the trailer and at least one or two people who are involved in its maintenance. That would be, IMHO, beyond seriously dangerous.
5KA had to refuel at Wickenburg. So maybe that’s where the chase truck/trailer/maintenance personnel were staged?
Todd Pederson, its Manager and the Helitack Crew Supervisor, and maybe one other person (or maybe not, but it just seems reasonable to me, for support reasons) fly with the helicopter to the helibase, on Hays Ranch Road, in order to support it more immediately there, including managing the bambi bucket (which, yes, normally is carried on the helicopter) and what ever else might be needed (hello risk management) to be managed there.
I do think 5KA doesn’t need anybody else from the crew to be present at the Horseshoe Dip.
So, according to this scenario, the general maintenance crew and equipment are staged at Wickenburg, the more immediate crew (including Todd Pederson) are staged at the helibase on Hays Ranch Road. 5KA is flying water drops with just the pilot on board (who is following the instructions of B33 lead pilot, who he has a long-standing trusted relationship with). And thus Todd says “we were engaged in structure protection on Model Creek Road” (I’m paraphrasing), and thus none of the actors on the ground in that area acknowledge that larger crew in their interviews.
Todd Pederson is likely communicating with the 5KA pilot via a FS channel (as I’m remembering Bob saying downstream) which, most likely other essential members of that team are also likely privy to, while also listening to Air to Ground and, I would guess, Air to Air.
So does this scenario make sense?
Marti I think some where it was stated that the Helicopter and crew had been on the earlier fire cant remember the name off hand.in Arizona.
They were staged at a FS camp somewhere and ordered to the Yarnell Fire.
Maybe only as a water dropper only with out the crew and other equipment. At least the Foreman Todd Pederson and possibly another crewman would have gone with the helicopter. Required under FS contracts to manage the Helicopter and flight time reports.
You are right on with the rest————-
Also a comment on Payette Helicopter—
They were the First Rappel Helicopter in Idaho and R4 A class operation for a number of years.
They have a highly qualified supervisory organization with a lot of experience some came out of the Smoke Jumpers many Highly qualified fire fighters type II qualified overhead. The pilot sounds like he has been around fire quite a while as well. And may have known the B33 pilot from being close neighbors with Oregon R6. Just my thoughts.
Hay WTKTT over on Elizabeth’s Blog in the new rant checkout the 1 reply which I believe is her as well
she is saying with Question marks she thinks you are a Fred Somebody. Also attacked me but I am use to that from her. She Has to vet you in order to join her blog probably why she has no takers.
Reply to Marti Reed post on September 28, 2014 at 11:55 pm
Marti… I moved this ‘response’ up here to to a new parent comment since it requires reprinting some of the ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) ADOSH interview transcript and those ‘numbered’ interview lines need all the horizontal column space they can get so they format correctly.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Thanks for your response, WTKTT!
>> There is just so much FAIL in all of this.
Yes. It really is an absolute miracle that all three towns ( Peeples Valley, Yarnell, and Glen Ilah ) didn’t literally ‘disappear from the face of the earth’ that weekend and it’s also a miracle that they weren’t hauling bodies out of that part of Arizona for a week.
I still think the TOTAL FAIL began the day before, on Saturday, June 29, 2013, on IC Russ Shumate’s watch.
Yes… more COULD have been done on the Friday night after the fire was even first ‘spotted’… but the truth ( with photos to back it up ) is that the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ was practically nothing at all even come Saturday morning and there were MORE than NINE hours of daylight preceding the infamous ‘spot over’ to make sure it was dead-as-a-door-nail.
Even the Lewis DOC crew had a good FIVE hours to just ‘mop-up’ a simple 2 acre non-active fire up there on that ridge and not let there even be a possibility of it ‘jumping that road’ later that afternoon.
It didn’t happen… and then all the additional FAIL on Sunday ( which should have never even been necessary ) went on to become just part of history.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that the fire was going to
>> TURN AROUND and head to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) told investigators EXACTLY why they arrived at that conclusion even before they had finished their first ‘turn around the fire’ that day circa 12:15 PM.
This requires some posting from their interview so I’m going to put those at the bottom of this Reply.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’ve been picking my way back in time to learn some things about the
>> history of Price Valley Heli-Rappell and 5KA. It’s a fairly significant
>> (in a positive way) history.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> I”ve been reading about this crew and this helicopter.
>> So. I guess what I’m saying here is that I’ve been seeing that this is
>> a crew and a helicopter that has some serious creds.
Yes. Highly accomplished. Highly professional.
You can hear that just from listening to the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel traffic.
The pilot of 5KA also had a wonderful working relationship that day with Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’. They obviously got along well and had a LOT of respect for each other. That is why 5KA didn’t hesitate to try and jump into the MAYDAY traffic when even he wasn’t hearing either French or Burfiend respond to either GM’s calls for help OR to OPS1 Todd Abel’s calls to them about the MAYDAY traffic. He must have simply thought the only reason they wouldn’t be responding to such important radio traffic is that they weren’t hearing those people calling them on the Air-To-Ground channel… so that’s why he tried to give them that ‘people are calling you’ heads-up over the Air-To-Air channel.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You, back in Chapter VII, kind of knocked Pederson because of
>> his appearance. I think we need to take his attempts to communicate
>> what he said VERY seriously.
If you are talking about this comment I made about the MSM article featuring a VIDEO that shows Pederson…
—————————–
The very first MSM clip the list has Pederson being interviewed… but he is ALSO ‘featured’ in the video clip that accompanies the article. He’s a tall guy with a beard that is so close-cropped it looks fake. He is seen in the video (apparently) helping some others ‘attend’ to the same ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ helicopter also seen lifting a bucket in the video. The report says that Todd Pederson was ‘one of the first responders’ and had ‘been on the fire since Friday’… but that can’t be correct. Pederson’s clothes aren’t dirty in any way so it doesn’t look like he’d ever been doing any ‘line work’.
———————————-
…I wasn’t ‘knocking’ his appearance at all. I was just ‘describing’ it.
His beard DOES look almost ‘fake’ ( it’s so perfect ) and he also did NOT look like someone who had been ‘on the line’ since Friday, as the article suggests, unless he had just changed into a brand new set of clothes before the VIDEO was shot.
I DO take what he has to say VERY seriously.
I wish SOMEONE ( anyone? ) had even bothered to officially ‘interview’ him.
He is now on record as being the FIRST firefighter to even admit ( on July 4 ) that there WAS any actual ‘deployment radio traffic’… yet (apparently) no one even bothered to interview him.
Even when the media people witnessed that STFU moment and they then tried to ask the ‘official’ who had obviously just told Pedersen to ‘Shut Up’ what he was referring to… that official was not ready to admit that there was ANY ‘radio traffic’ at all or that anyone ‘heard’ anything.
All that official said to the media at that time was… “Even if there had been radio traffic around the time of deployment there would have been no time to mount a rescue effort”.
Total CYA mode. Even as early as July 4, 2013.
If you read the MSM articles that talk about what Pedersen DID say before some fire official stepped in and told him to basically ‘Shut The Fuck Up’ about what radio transmissions he heard… then it is Pedersen himself who SEEMS to also have been saying that he first heard MAYDAY calls over a TAC channel… with someone ( Marsh? Steed? ) trying to contact his ‘Supervisor’ ( and not Air Attack, initially ).
This would still be a ‘match’ for what those Blue Ridge Unit Logs say… that a MAYDAY call went out FIRST on the TAC channel ( as in… a call to ‘Operations’ ) and only when it went unanswered for some amount of do we then hear Jesse Steed and Robert Caldwell desperately trying to get ‘Air Attack’ to respond to them.
Someone still needs to interview this Pedersen guy ( and all the OTHER 10 Helitack crew who were supposedly there and listening to the radio as well )… and they all need to tell the TRUTH about what they heard that day.
The pilot of 5KA too, of course.
He has ALWAYS been crucially involved in the ‘deployment traffic’ but has (apparently)
never even been interviewed by anyone… even though Mike Dudley got up in front of all those Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014, and told them the SAIT’s absolute priority was to talk to the ‘Air People’ because they ‘heard things’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I have NO IDEA how/why they were dispatched to this fire, except possibly
>> that they seem to have already been working on the Doce Fire.
Calls went out for ‘Choppers’ as part of Russ Shumate’s desperate attempt to ‘ramp up’ the Yarnell Hill Fire on Saturday night WITHOUT even filing an official report that the fire had ‘Escaped Initial Attack’.
That is still one of the (indirect) causes of the tragedies on Sunday.
People were showing up even on Sunday morning that still believed they were in ‘Initial Attack’ mode when the truth is that Russ Shumate’s IA had TOTALLY FAILED the day before… but the Yarnell Fire was never declared ( not even late Saturday night ) to have been a fire that had ‘Escaped Initial Attack’.
Regarding 5KA… there have always been these entries in the PUBLIC ‘I-Dispatch-Records’ document…
At 7:57 PM on Saturday night… an entry appears about Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’…
06/29/2013 1957 KO 5KA went to a Santa Fe Order, No order received at SWCC. Waiting on order, Crew buggy broke down at way back to Taos, tow truck needed. S# needed. that will be on the Aragon fire.
67 minutes later, at 9:04 PM… there are these entries…
06/29/2013 2104 KO 5KA will fill Yarnell Hill fire.
06/29/2013 2105 FB Yarnell Fire is estimated at 100 acres.
Then there is this entry for Sunday, June 30, 2013…
WildCAD
Arizona Dispatch Center
Timer Report Resource, Date: 6/30/2013
Incident: A1S-2013
6/30/2013 12:39:56 PM ALH OK: IN CONTACT WITH 5KA AT THIS TIME
SIDENOTE: This is also the ‘Dispatch Log’ that explains why the Blue Ridge Mountain Hotshots got to Yarnell LATE… missed all the briefings, and so ( consequently ) had no idea where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was or what Marsh meant later in the day when he talked about ‘making our way to the Ranch’. This Log says that Dispatch was told at 8:52 PM on Saturday night that Blue Ridge was in 15 minutes ( as in, for Yarnell at 9:07 PM ), would ‘RON’ ( Rest OverNight ) in Camp Verde, and that Blue Ridge would be in Yarnell, ready for work, at 6:00 AM Sunday.
It didn’t happen. ( Not as Dispatch thought it would, anyway ).
The Blue Ridge Unit Logs do verify that they spent the night in Camp Verde… but they got of there way late in order to make their 6:00 AM ETA in Yarnell and that’s why they were LATE and missed all the Sunday morning briefings.
From the Log…
06/29/2013 2052 LG notification from Rob at FDC, Blue Ridge crew leaving in 15 minutes, RON in Camp Verde, arrive at Yarnell Hill incident tomorrow 6/30 at 0600.
From the very first line of Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log…
0630 – Blue Ridge IHC departs Comfort Inn Camp Verde, AZ.
So Blue Ridge was SUPPOSED to be in Yarnell at 6:00 AM on Sunday, ready to be briefed and go to work, but they didn’t even leave the ‘Comfort Inn’ where they spent the night in Camp Verde until 6:30 AM.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> All things considered, I have a hard time believing 5KA’s helitack
>> crew (and especially Todd Pederson, the Helicopter Manager and
>> thus Crew Supervisor) didn’t have some kind of serious hand in
>> coordinating what that helicopter was doing during that afternoon.
>> That’s how this stuff is managed.
See the ‘Dispatch Log’ entries above.
There is a confusing entry in there at 7:57 PM on Saturday night about the 5KA ‘Crew Buggy’ having ‘broken down’ on its way to Taos and needing a ‘tow’.
Maybe Todd Pederson ( and the rest of the 5KA support crew? ) didn’t even get to Yarnell until shortly before the deployment because their ‘Buggy’ had to get fixed that morning?
There are still ELEVEN guys associated with this Helitack crew listed in the ‘Resource Orders’ as having been in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but we still have no idea WHEN any of them got there, or what they were really doing that day even if they WERE there.
If ANY of these ELEVEN guys were ever actually interviewed by anyone… we have yet to find out about it ( or what they might have testifed to ).
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> A 5-year contracted helicopter and the agency/crew that is
>> contracting it (and has been for five years) have a SIGNIFICANT
>> relationship with each other.
>>
>> If 5KA is reporting a “late” call by Eric Marsh; and it’s Manager is
>> reporting communiques from him and then being “gagged” by the
>> USFS (as was, apparently, the Zion Helitack Supervisor regarding
>> the Iron Fire crash), there is YES a serious problem.
Agree totally.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that the fire was going to
>> TURN AROUND and head to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
Okay… returning to your FIRST question here at the bottom of this ‘Reply’.
** THE SHORT STORY
When ‘Bravo 3’ arrived in Yarnell circa NOON… they found Air Attack Rory Collins had already left the area to refuel and a VLAT was now ‘orbiting’ and waiting for them.
They were immediately told ( By someone. Todd Abel? ) that their ‘primary ground contact’ was a Structure Protection guy named ‘Darrell’.
Darrell Willis then directed them to help try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch with retardant drops. Willis had identified a series of two-tracks that kind of ‘surrounded’ the Double-Bar-A-Ranch and that was the ‘perimeter’ he had the DOC crews clearing out in the hopes it might protect the ranch. Willis told ‘Bravo 3’ to ‘support’ that effort and drop retardant around those two-tracks..
‘Bravo 3’ used the VLAT for that… and (supposedly) two other SEATS as well.
Those ‘drops’ that then took place right around the Double-Bar-A-Ranch are still visible a few hours later in the aerial footage taken by ABC 15 News Chopper ‘Air 15’ as it showed the Double Bar-A-Ranch completely engulfed in flames from almost directly above ( at their assigned Media Chopper operating altitude of 9,000 feet ).
As soon as ‘Bravo 3’ finished those drops requested by Darrell Willis… they took their first ‘turn around the whole fire’ circa 12:15 or 12:30 PM.
It was probably more like 12:15 PM because during this ‘turn around the fire’ is when they first talked to ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez… and it was PRIOR to the arguement he would then behaving circa 12:20 PM with DIVSA Eric Marsh.
It was DURING their very first ‘turn around the fire’ circa 12:15 PM that they said it was already perfectly obvious what was going to happen later in the day.
They said it was because of the ‘aggressive fire behavior’ they were already observing on the ground, the fuel loads involved, the extreme fire conditions, and the fact that the fire had ALREADY split into TWO HEADS and MULTIPLE FINGERS, and some of them were already heading aggressively EAST even that early in the day.
They realized there was no way it was going to just keep ‘buring downhill’ like it had been in the morning and that the fuel loads, conditions, and the fact that the worst part of that day’s burn cycle was even yet to come were all going to combine into a threat to Yarnell THAT afternoon.
Even as early as 12:15 PM… their official recommendation was that Yarnell start evacuating. They told this to ‘Division Z’, Rance Marquez… who then disappeared ( from the radio, anyway ) for the rest of the afternoon and (apparently) didn’t pass ANY of this ‘situation report’ from ‘Bravo 3’ on to anyone else that day.
Just one more tragic ‘missed opportunity’ in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30, 2013.
If the opinions of these experienced Air Support men circa 12:15 PM had reached the right people AND been taken with the seriousness they deserved… a LOT of things might have been different that day.
There might be a lot less fatherless children today and people who had to get out of harms way might have been able to save a LOT more of their irreplaceable possessions.
This wasn’t the ONLY ‘MASSIVE DISCONNECT’ between Air Support and Ground Forces that day… but it was probably the most serious one.
** THE LONG STORY
ADOSH INTERVIEW WITH ‘BRAVO 3’
PAUL LENMARK AND RUSTY WARBIS
Interviewer: Brett Steurer
9-24-13/9:00 am – ( NOTE: 4 days before the AZ Forestry SAIR report was released )
Q=Barry Hicks
Q1=Marshall Krotenberg
Q2= Bruce Hanna
Q3=Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
Q4= Brett Steurer
A=Rusty Warbis
A1=Paul Lenmark
A2=Alex Viscusi
Early on the interview, when the ADOSH investigators were focusing on what they did, and saw, and thought right after ARRIVING on the fire about NOON or 12:15 PM… they talked about their initial impressions of the fire itself and what they THOUGHT it was GOING to do.
This section comes RIGHT after ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks had just verified with them that their initial ‘Ground Contact’ upon arriving was SPGS2 Darrell Willis.
————————————————————————–
526 Q: Right. And who were you talking to on the ground at that point in time? Do
527 you remember, ah, – and the ground contact was?
528
529 A or A1: Our primary contact was stricture – structure group 2, ah, by Engine 58 that
530 we were talking with as well, but our primary, ah – ah, contact was structure
531 group 2.
532
533 Q: Did you know who that was or…
534
535 A or A1: I have, ah, just a note written – it’s Darrell…
536
537 Q: Darrell Willis?
538
539 A or A1: I don’t know his last name. I have…
540
541 If it was structure group