Please begin Chapter IX of the Yarnell Hill Fire discussion here. Once again, do not include more than one link in your comment in order to avoid the spam folder. Thank you, John
Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII and Chapter VIII.
© Copyright 2014 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Joy and I attended the Yarnell Fire Board Group and are just back. It seems they were more intent on enforcing something that can not be legally enforced concerning state trespass laws than they are creating defensable space, looking at concerns regarding the loss of 40 lives since the fire and finding out what the circumstances really were that led up to the 19 GMHS deaths.
A number of Joy’s friends showed up to witness in case we got arrested–it did not happen. Even her husband was there to make bond if needed. The young fire chief stated he was only trying to comply with orders from upstairs, but he did not know that Joy had photographed many people that were on those state lands without legal passes, therefore breaking the law. Ignorance of the law is no excuse these days eventhough there are 64000 and more on the books. But boys enforcing the law need to get them all down so they can deliver the facts to us hikers. Well it turns out Joy educated many of those that she had in the photo when they later wanted to hike with us–almost to a person they did not know that they had to have a pass to walk on their own public lands. Yes a $15 senior pass or $20 regular pass will get you on with us–we want to keep you out of jail and the exorbitant fine for that awful crime of walking on state or federal lands without giving the mordida (bite) as they call it in Mexico. Some think it is akin to a robber holding a gun on you so you can walk out there. The state will do that for you as well if you are not happy with their fee.
I did get in a thing about the 40 dying and so first did Joy. I was able to let the board know that 83%of that LC95A slurry fire retardant is ammonia nitrate that gives off a lung tissue killing gas and that 8% is chemicals that we have yet to know due to trade secret. I suggested that since they should have the clout to gain this information, and seeing that they are a fire board concerned with fire things including firemen’s health they ought to find out. Also factor in 40 deaths now since the fire in this little community, would it not be a good idea to contact EPA or the health bureaus to investigate the possible escalation in deaths to older citizens. One lady was very interested on the board and did write this down. Maybe it will help somebody–seeing the 6 page information report on LC95A states it has never been tested on animals or humans as to its effect on health. They just assume it is good stuff and the gasses and chemicals emitted by the drops are benign. Sounds like the same shit we heard when i was a uranium miner–low grade uranium does no harm–yet you can get a consolation prize for being a uranium miner for over 4 quarters of a hundred and fifity grand. It takes one of specific cancers, COPD, and other diseases to get it and up to ten years for approval so hopefully you can hang on against the disease until you get it. Most haven’t and those old miners i knew were mostly gone long ago from one cancer or another. Maybe these firemen need to know now what they breath, so they can have some chance of future retribution–if indeed as i belive they are–breathing dangerous chemicals.
Now back to the fire–Joy did post some more new photos a few days ago. What I saw looked like would be more help in resolving things.
The Discovery Channel guy did contact Joy just before we left–wanted her to report back on how it went at the fire board. Well I did not see much excitement there, but can bet they will lay off Joy after she laid out about six pages of maps, regulations and facts about how the law must be followed not only by us but by those that exercise the law as well.
It is amazing all this to me–I do admire you people here and how well you have been exposing these bumblers of the Yarnell fire.
I have to admit I did ask the FBI to step in and had presented a pretty good argument (at least in my own opinion) as to why they should. It took a long email to the Phoenix office–and one of the things i covered is the obvious cover up and omission of such things as that Bambi and Copter able to stop the fire or at least slow it for oncoming fire fighters that was told by the Honcho to stay put. Such things seem strange to me–also that a photo of two atv’s on the mountain right at the fire on Friday is in the hands of certain individuals–yet no investigator has ever bothered to contact those people with the photo or even ask who it is that has those photo’s.
Did Joy’s discovery of that bambi/copter photo and the fact that certain firemen on the job hear on radio that bosses told the copter pilots to stand down on Saturday morning piss someone off? Marti and Wants to Know the Truth dissected those photos as to what they were as well as time and date and location. The idea is that someone does not want the truth and nothing but the truth out and in my way of thinking only outside investigators will be able to get closure and satisfaction to the loved ones. There are lots of children out there without fathers now, mothers and dads without their sons. There are plenty of friends saddened by this tragedy So no matter how lightly those dissenters to outside investigators might be, this investigation will go on and no amount of harassment or intimidation will stop athose of us who whittle at the veil of whitewash we hve been fed.
John started Chapter X last night
Cool.
Packing my bags right now.
The direct ‘jump link’ to the new Chapter X ( TEN ) is as follows…
http://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-x/
**
** EXIF METADATA CONTAINED IN THE FILES RECEIVED BY INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA
The bad news: There are definitely TWO different video cameras involved but they both seem to be ‘older’ devices and there doesn’t seem to be any actual DEVICE information in the EXIF data that would specifically identify them.
The good news: There is ENOUGH data there to figure it out what devices they really were.
Also some more bad news… the first three videos have some TIMESTAMP information in them… but the more important ‘Helmet Cam’ videos do NOT.
** THE FIRST THREE VIDEOS
The following piece of EXIF data actually dates the camera.
This version C.S0050-0 V1.0 of the 3GP video format dates back to 2003…
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
The following field seems to verify the AGE of this device as circa 2003 since it ONLY lists a 3GPP ‘compatibility’ mode with the older V1.0 version. If it was a more modern 3GPP capable device it would be listing additional ‘Compatible Brands’ like ‘3g2b’ and ‘3g2c’. ( in addition to the early 3g2a version )…
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
There is a ‘Current Time’ data field in this version of 3GPP, but as you well see below… either this device wasn’t updating it or that time-stamping feature for videos had been turned OFF.
** FILENAMES TAMPERED WITH?
Something really strange is going on with the ‘Media Create Dates’ versus the filenames that are appearing for these 3 files.
Here are the actual ‘Media Create Date’ timestamps embedded in these files… and the length of time BETWEEN them…
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131532.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131533.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46 ( +66 seconds )
‘Create Date’ field for 0630131534.3g2
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07 ( +81 seconds )
This timestamp information does NOT match a possible device file naming sequence of…
0630131532.3g2
0630131533.3g2
0630131534.3g2
According to the device clock… it was 22:32:34 when the first video was ‘created’ ( 10:32:34 PM ).
We certainly know it wasn’t 10 PM in the evening… but even then the ‘minute sequence’ is off from reality.
The ‘minute value’ for the first two files matches ( 32 and 33 )… but according to the device itself the third filename should have had a ’35’ minute value instead of ’34’.
It’s late in the evening here.
More about all this later.
Here are some EXIF data ‘dumps’ from the files in the Dropbox…
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131532.3g2
File Name: 0630131532.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 407900
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.80 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.80 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:32:34
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.80 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 110 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131533.3g2
File Name: 0630131533.3g2
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 411029
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.92 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.87 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:33:46
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.92 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 110 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** EXIF metadata contained in 0630131534.3g2
File Name: 0630131534.3g2
File Size: 400 kB
File Type: 3G2
MIME Type: video/3gpp2
Major Brand: 3GPP2 Media (.3G2) compliant with 3GPP2 C.S0050-0 V1.0
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: 3g2a
Movie Data Size: 406487
Movie Data Offset: 28
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Time Scale: 1000
Duration: 29.73 s
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Track Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 29.73 s
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 176
Image Height: 144
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: mp4v
Source Image Width: 176
Source Image Height: 144
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Bit Depth: 24
Video Frame Rate: 15
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Media Modify Date: 2013:06:30 22:35:07
Media Time Scale: 8000
Media Duration: 29.72 s
Handler Type: Audio Track
Handler Description: soun
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 8000
Avg Bitrate: 109 kbps
Image Size: 176×144
Rotation: 0
** THE HELMET CAM VIDEOS ( The M2Uxxxxx.MPG files )
Now that we know the ACTUAL ( original ) file extension for the M2Uxxxxx files was .MPG ( and not .MP4 ) that pretty much proves Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Camera’ had to be some kind of SONY based device.
Perhaps an older Sony HandyCam or Sony MiniCam.
There really isn’t much information there on initial inspection… but there *might* be more.
Stay tuned.
** EXIF metadata contained in M2U00269.MPG
File Name: M2U00269.MPG
File Size: 14 MB
File Type: MPEG
MIME Type: video/mpeg
MPEG Audio Version: 1
Audio Layer: 1
Audio Bitrate: 160 kbps
Sample Rate: 44100
Channel Mode: Joint Stereo
Mode Extension: Bands 4-31
Copyright Flag: True
Original Media: True
Emphasis: CCIT J.17
Image Width: 720
Image Height: 480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9, 625 line, PAL
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Video Bitrate: 9.1 Mbps
Duration: 12.91 s (approx)
Image Size: 720×480
** EXIF metadata contained in M2U00268.MPG
File Name: M2U00268.MPG
File Size: 41 MB
File Type: MPEG
MIME Type: video/mpeg
MPEG Audio Version: 1
Audio Layer: 1
Audio Bitrate: 160 kbps
Sample Rate: 44100
Channel Mode: Joint Stereo
Mode Extension: Bands 4-31
Copyright Flag: True
Original Media: True
Emphasis: CCIT J.17
Image Width: 720
Image Height: 480
Aspect Ratio: 16:9, 625 line, PAL
Frame Rate: 29.97 fps
Video Bitrate: 9.1 Mbps
Duration: 0:00:36 (approx)
Image Size: 720×480
Hmmm
Maybe start here:
Sony – Cyber-Shot Shock+Waterproof Camera Orange+32GB+Helmet+Handlebar Mounts+Batt+Case+Flex Tripod+Acc Kit – Orange
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/sony-cyber-shot-shock-waterproof-camera-orange-32gb-helmet-handlebar-mounts-batt-case-flex-tripod-acc-kit-orange/1311290807.p?id=mp1311290807&skuId=1311290807
Their “action cams” don’t zoom.
But this one does. And it’s optical zoom. And Sony uses Carl Zeiss lenses. The very best. That would explain what I was seeing in the first M2U video.
But no remote. He would have had to operate this by hand.
Just looked at 69. It’s the same length as the YouTube version.
More videos have been uploaded now.
Thanks, JD!!
OK, back to bed. I just got up bcuz of a sneezing attack.
Thanks, WTKTT!
Hmmm.
That 2003 GP3 really is a stumper.
I thought GP3 was associated with GoPros. Guess not.
Correction It’s 3GP
Big learning curve for me here.
Maybe it IS a flip cellphone?
Marti digs back thru the cobwebs in her mind to try to even remember what her first cellphone was (it didn’t take pictures) after learning that 3GP didn’t start with GroPros, but with 3G networks.
2002
“Nokia 7650
This was the first Nokia set to feature a built-in camera and was featured in the movie Minority Report.”
From “THE EVOLUTION OF CELL PHONE DESIGN BETWEEN 1983-2009”
http://www.webdesignerdepot.com/2009/05/the-evolution-of-cell-phone-design-between-1983-2009/
OK Now I REALLY need to go back to bed.
So Aaron was, possibly, actually shooting with an antique cellphone?
(This, if in fact it is the case, in no way substantiates what our counselor said about how fire fighter crews use old cellphones because they can’t afford anything newer. ) I’ve seen WAY too many firefighter videos to believe that.)
Confession.
My Melita Drip Coffee Maker/Carafe is over 27 years old.
I wouldn’t even think of using anything else.
**
** What InvestigativeMEDIA actually received from the US Forestry Service
IM has just now posted a link to exact copies of what it actually received from the US Forestry Service in response to the original FOIA request for ‘Prescott National Forest’ employee video(s).
The new IM article about this is here…
InvestigativeMEDIA posts first set of Forest Service videos
November 17, 2014 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/investigativemedia-posts-first-set-of-forest-service-videos/
The direct link to the online Dropbox that contains the 12 videos ( out of a total of 21 ) that have been uploaded so far is as follows…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/ipv8to6ih7gmzbq/AAC82U3UuheEtc8GPHFn91vea?dl=0
The uploading is ongoing and not yet completed… but there are at least 12 complete videos already in the Dropbox… including the first THREE of the burnout operation up on Model Creek Road.
Thanks!
There’s a bunch more there now.
When I heard the statement who “knew” the men “the answers died with the 19″…it just stuck to me…
I say to anyone who thinks all the answers died with them.
PLAY GOD. PAY THE PRICE.
SOME of ‘the answers’ probably did… but certainly not ALL… as the United States Forestry Service, Arizona Forestry, and officials/employees of the City of Prescott would like us to believe.
Even just 9 days ago… the United States Forestry Service and Arizona Forestry proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that they have ALWAYS been ‘withholding’ crucial evidence about what really happened that day from both the families of the poor men who lost their lives AND from the people charged ( by law ) with officially investigating this tragic incident.
You have to wonder, then… what else is still being ‘withheld’… and what ‘answers’ lie ahead?
Recently Bob Powers used 2 words that struck me “STRICK CONFIDENCE” and when we began the hikes we explained ANYONE reaching out to us from June 30 2013 until January 2014 that anything they said to us would not be kept in strick confidence because I just did not want to juggle who said what and what not to say since we were bombarded by so many avenues from locals to firefighting/smokejumper community to investigators/media/radio/djs/authors/journalists to loved ones of the GMHS to total strangers to retired military/cia/federal folks to meteorologists to botanists to high up command current and retired of wildland fire community to fire wardens current and retired to state and city and county officials again current and retired so our list is very very lengthy of incoming communications. I have some information and I can only state that at this date but remember this date because when it comes out I just want everyone to know how God has guided this all and boy do I wish I can share even the tiniest detail yet all I can say it is in regards to who God shared to us without us even looking and how it is still amazes me how God’s time is slower than I would of thought on the topic of the YHF when there is still living beings that were on that fire and homeowners that if they just shared their accounts and footage…I finally learned to trust the One who knows all things and accept that some questions may never be answered. I just hope in this YHF; we witness from seed-time to HARVEST. I can share this week a local asked me HOW COME I never posted on here about the flair a homeowner saw at 4:35pm from the area of the Helm’s (THE BOX CANYON) and the homeowner did not know how come it was never mentioned in the SAIR and I explained it was a solo account said in front of other locals but to this date I have not yet heard another account so I never posted about it because I work on some how trailing back to source/footage. I will not say something on JD’s page unless it is what it is…I think of the children in all this and as they grow or currently old enough and read this that I am saying all I can for the fatherless. I know it is OFF TRACK but the whales do not have a voice but there are current strong activists saving the whales from poachers so I just am trying to keep checking every possible area we can and really I did not get local’s cd yet but did learn one is on vacation for 2 weeks with her daughter and my hopes is the Holidays does not envelop her time and have to wait for the new year. Yet it will cover the areas of Model Creek Road/Monica Mine and mountain top views. Also John last night at Barb’s now knows what we are looking for and he will get the word out. I passed out today so I am online to order some labs. I had a forehead blood gusher and I have no clue how long I was out. I am feeling woozy. Today they are having MEET THE ARTIST at the Yarnell Library with Chuck Tidey and his art. Surrounded by many folks are the MOVE ON JOY/LET THE FIRE AND MEN GO…you would think if a certain GMHS loved one had her hand in their ideas nowadays—either way Bob Powers is right. I did tell everyone if you tell me something let it be something I can repeat but I do know certain current firefighter community are not in fear of their career as much as they fear the change that may happen from them coming forward because it may not just affect their career but too many…I gotta go. Head hurts. Sonny is typing away and I printed my labs and ordering more so some time I hope to look more into this page yet I do SUPPORT a new chapter!
I happened to peruse the info on a GoPro package while in the store yesterday, and while that particular device will not zoom, it will go from wide view to narrow view, which under certain conditions could sort of mimic a zoom.
I took a quick look through some of the videos to see if I could find any zooming going on, and I didn’t see any in the places I looked. If any of you are familiar with the locations of any zooms, you might want to double check to make sure the camera wasn’t just going from wide to narrow, or vice versa.
Thanks! Good catch! Will look!
I DID look for zooming, and found it.
Will go back and look to see if it’s zooming or “shifting”
Just going from “wide” to “narrow” wouldn’t change the focal length or the appearance of that. Maybe it’s like a digital zoom where it crops the whole frame, which is what cellphones do. making it look like a zoom.
To make a cellphone really zoom, you have to get an additional lens. Making and selling those has been quite a cottage industry.
OK. I looked at M2U00261.
He’s definitely zoomng in and out. It’s a gradual thing, zooming in and out..
http://youtu.be/41IHV2FE5CE?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
You are correct, no question about it in this video. THX!
Thank you, Marti.
I would say that pretty much rules out a ‘smartphone’ device as well.
Not to worry… we are GOING to find out what camera(s) Hulburd was using and what the FULL story is on this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS.
One step at a time… swings of the axe.
So I just looked at the video again.
The zoom is very smooth and the resolution also seems quite good. And he’s really pushing it.
Looks more like optical zoom than digital zoom.
I haven’t youtubed to look at the Drift cameras. I think I will tonight.
And it’s also really quiet.
Ugh. Watching these videos about the drift is making me salivate.
Unfortunately, i’ve now looked at lots of Drift videos, and so far the zoom is not really used a lot. They’re mostly featuring lots of other things in which the zoom function isn’t really used.
Remember, you wrote on October 19, 2014 at 11:58 PM:
“Something tells me the already scheduled November 17 ‘ADOSH findings challenge review’ might play into the timing here.”
Welcome to today, everybody!!
BrainMistake Alert
It was WTKTT who wrote that, not TTWARE.
The important thing is:
It’s TODAY.
There actually is no regularly scheduled AOSHA (public) meeting for today.
We’ve never been quite where even Mr. Dougherty got that date but I’m also sure Mr. Dougherty has many contacts he trusts there in Arizona.
As per the following ADOSH link…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_agendas_page.aspx
…the LAST public meeting was November 13… and the NEXT scheduled public meeting is November 20.
The ‘minutes’ for the last November 13 meeting have not been published yet, but I would imagine if any decision was made at that meeting we have heard about by now.
It’s going to be an MSM ( Mainstream Media ) event, no matter what the decision is.
I am ASSUMING that this consideration about whether they should even consent to a review of their previous findings will show up on the agenda for one of their public meetings… because that’s what normally happens.
This certainly isn’t the first time ADOSH has issued fines against an Arizona employer and they have ‘contested’ them and requested a ‘review of the findings’.
There are plenty of OTHER past ‘minutes’ records for ADOSH where they discussed such ‘review requests’ in an open and transparent manner.
I do NOT know how ADOSH plans on handling this one.
It MIGHT all be ‘under the covers’ instead of in the ‘public’ agenda or minutes, like they have done in the past.
We shall see.
I believe the ADOSH findings will ultimately stand… exactly the way Marshall Krotenberg and his staff published them in the first place.
That was a ‘seriously screwed up’ workplace that entire weekend.
I’m sure AZCentral has their antennae turned on.
The Administrative Law Judge has rescheduled the hearing (Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health of The Industrial Commission of Arizona vs. Arizona State Forestry Division/State of Arizona) related to the Yarnell Hill Fire to July 8, 2015 at 9:30 a.m.
Wow.
Thank you, John.
Was any REASON given why someone thinks they now need another NINE MONTHS for this?
I also wonder who REQUESTED such a long extension.
Arizona Forestry?… or ADOSH?
This is itself newsworthy.
And I think the public has a right to know what’s going on here.
I doubt that Mr. Dougherty is making up the following ‘mouthful’…
(Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health of The Industrial Commission of Arizona vs. Arizona State Forestry Division/State of Arizona)
Sounds very much like the (full) official title of a duly filed court document.
I can find no such case filing in any law system I have access to, and no recent announcements about this rescheduling anywhere on the InterWeb.
Lazer head-cam camcorder”
“1st Lazer camcorder head-cam on youtube”
Published on Feb 12, 2013
“This is the first Lazer head-cam camcorder on youtube includes a Macro Zoom lens
“for close up”.Lazer and Zoom 1:15,Macro mode 1:35. The camera has a red lazer pointer to help you stay in frame with your subject when filming from head-cam.Camera has 8x Zoom and optical lens for macro mode
New Optical lens offers a higher performance lens than that of the Gopro’s lens”
http://youtu.be/-qMIbgLw4oo
I can’t really find anything about this camera on the google, other than this video, so I’m thinking he may be spelling/naming something incorrectly.
The big diff between this cam and the Drift cams is that this one has optical zoom rather than digital zoom, which the Drift cams use.
I haven’t had time to go back and really look at the videos to see if I can tell which type of zoom is in them. Digital zoom is really just cropping, so you lose resolution. Optical would keep the resolution and thus have better image quality.
Gotta go get some other stuff done. So have at it!
I just wanted to get a bead on about what cams are out there that have the features Aaron seems to be using.
Drift Innovation HD170 Stealth Action Camera with HD Recording, 4x Digital Zoom and 1.5-Inch LCD Screen (Black)
RF remote turns camera on and off while on your helmet or outside your vehicle. Saves batteries, memory and edit time
Night mode for optimal low-light performance. Digital 4X zoom
Ability to shoot in 60 frames per second for buttery smooth, professional quality slow motion video
The Drift HD170 Stealth is the worlds first sports action camera which films in full 1080p HD and has a built-in playback LCD screen and remote control. This rugged water resistant camera is the first camera that gives people what they want from an Action Camera.
Maximum Video Resolution: 1080p High Definition
SD Memory Capacity: up to 32GB
Digital Zoom: Digital x4 (in 720p/30/60fps & WVGA mode)
Lens Angle: 170° Fully Rotatable Wide Angle Lens
LCD Screen: 1.5″ Colour TFT
Water Resistant
Remote Control: Wireless RF (5m range) Hands Free Video and Photo
Audio: Built-in Microphone & Speaker
Menus: User Friendly Control Panel in 15 Languages
http://www.amazon.com/Drift-Innovation-Stealth-Recording-1-5-Inch/dp/B004L5AF4Q
I think, after reading the customer reviews, I might be willing to bet dollars to donuts this is it.
The remote clinched it for me, in the end.
That’s the older model.
Here”s the new smaller lighter one. Looks like they fixed the problems the customer reviews on the older one were describing
Drift HD Camera
http://www.amazon.com/Drift-Definition-Helmet-Action-Camera/dp/B005H2RDK6/ref=dp_ob_title_ce
If I were into headcam video, I”d scarf this baby up today. It’s 42% off — $174.00
Also:
DRIFT HD GHOST-S DIGITAL VIDEO ACTION CAMERA CAMCORDER
http://www.amazon.com/GHOST-S-DIGITAL-ACTION-CAMERA-CAMCORDER/dp/B00GJRCPRO/ref=cm_cr_pr_pb_t
Great stuff, Marti.
BTW… I did an extensive search ( believe me, extensive ) online for ANY other videos that might have been posted out there ANYWHERE that could be associated with Aaron Hulburd.
I found nothing.
There were even other photos taken by Christopher MacKenzie that were sitting online that allowed us to pretty much identify his camera before we ever got to see the EXIF data from his June 30, 2013 photos…
…but in this case ( for Aaron Hulburd )… I don’t see anything else ‘sitting out there’.
I did too. Same results.
A lot of crews use their videos to post on youtube for various purposes.
Blue Ridge doesn’t. Apparently neither do these guys.
Aaron probably uses his footage for in-house educational stuff, not for fun or advertising or public education.
Lets all move on I for one would rather bring any small information to this investigation and put it out to find additional input,
Some of us here have valuable contacts with the Families, FS, BLM, and Arizona Wild land Fire Fighters.
Some of these very people have given us information in strict confidence. Those that attack that information are only chasing those people back into the closet. People that would or could come forward are left with apprehension that they will as well be attacked.
Yes both RTS and I have contacts in the Fire community RTS being in and still working with Arizona FF’s is much closer to information than any of us. Those that contact us are yes afraid of loosing there jobs.
The Info we both got was key to IM John requesting the Videos. Wow New Revolution—-
IM knew about the Videos because RTS and I were contacted and the information given.
We knew there would be some skepticism here. Joy and Sonny who both live in the area confirmed that people had reviewed some new video information. That was being passed around.
So the additional information both RTS and I have indicates there is more to the Videos than was released we herd that and some other info that this may not be the only Video with info on it.
Did the video get shown in its entirety?
Did the video only get shown to a select few?
Was the Video we got only a part of the whole?
Some of the information out there says that the last part of the video showing the deployment scene was requested to be removed before it was released.
Dose that tell you some one or ones reviewed the Videos prior to release?
There are a lot of unanswered questions still lurking in the mist.
Why were the Videos not shown to the Families and Lawyers before they were released?
I rest my case at this point and hope that some one out there will contact John Dougherty with
more information to break this wide open…………………..
Thanks to all who have given me confidential information know your Identities are still safe.
.
Exactly Bob–Too many are afraid of loosing their jobs for revealing what they know. Finding new evidence has been a slow going process because of those fears.
The last photos we gave out had to be in strict confidence for source. That person we gave appreciation to was happy that her photos may have helped. You see there are just too many cronies in this area with significant power over peoples lives to scare them. Still, Joy has been able to convince a few that their photos are important no matter how insignificant they are.
I thought there might be enough evidence out there to bring in a proper federal investigation but perhaps more is needed. Wouldn’t the deaths of 19 men beg for it considering the circumstances? Well we will continue searching for more.
A sad thing is that certain people with money and clout have a lot of information they do not share. Sharing on this forum expose the data to a multitude of savvy people and some with exceptional analytical skills. Joy in blowing up many of these photos had discovered some details that otherwise have been overlooked. She noticed that the initial count radioed in came to 18? That leaves questions as to whether another body was found later in another location away from the others. Of course the excuse will be that in the haste and excitement there was a miscount. Possible but considering all the other actions in this investigation we wonder.
Dr. Ted. Putman says that bodies should never be moved in haste since it takes away information that might be vital to understanding the real cause. We do not know how well that was handled here but hopefully it was done properly.
There are people here of good repute that told Joy and I that the dispatcher for the Yarnell fire department was instructed to shred records. We were told that the local fire department has witnesses that saw an argument as to whether to put the fire out or let it go until it grew into greater proportions so that crews could go to work. Considering the source of this information, I wonder why this is not investigated.
Again certain reputable people have told us that they have photos of two yellow and white ATV’s right at the fire on the evening lightening supposedly started this fire. Little has been said about this and I wonder why someone from government has not jumped on this information like bees on honey.
Maybe they have? If so we do not know and I personally do not have the clout to get them to do that. Maybe a Bob Powers or a John Daugherty or a mayor Kueykendahl could, Our friend, Charley Mosely, CIA operative and before a smioke jumper has sadly passed since the fire. He would have known what was necessary for such investigation and I hope there might be some other concerned firefighter with such high qualifications in the process to get honest answers which I believe will only come from an outside source such as the FBI.
I see that too many people are hiding evidence for selfish reasons, fear, or comraderie. Shame on them since their information is needed by the loved ones and not least because the full truth of this incident will save future lives.
I back Joy 100% on her efforts, but she is ill. The doctors tell her she has throat, tung and cancer tumors throughout her body. Yet she keeps plodding on in spite of doctors who want her in their clutches as soon as possible.
Something I am going to do now–we learned that from Show low a firefighter whom has only been on the fires for a couple years and is a young man has come down with a deadly cancer. Is there something in that agent orange fire retardant being used that the chemical companies are not telling us about? When I worked the Uranium mines they assured us that that low level radiation would not harm us. Yet nearly every Uranium miner I know has come down with one cancer or another. I myself have had a melanoma removed. You see, we are often lied to so that these big companies make their profits or because a government needs another atom bomb to wave at its enemies. Sadly that is the way the world works until people unite to protest.
Don’t be weak and fearful–put the information out even if you have to be anonymous to save your life.
Thank you good ones for keeping at this thing. Doing a good thing is always good for the soul.
also not the man was 100% in PERFECT health before graduating in 2012 to be a EMT/Firefighter.
People in the field new should keep a close eye on your blood labs before entering…fight some fires and see where you are at after fighting the fires.
Very good point!
What are they using out there to fight the fires nowadays…stuff to eventually kill their own men with insidious diseases. What is in that slurry drop.
I will be alright Sonny. Yet that was a forehead boo boo time today. I ordered proper labs to get proper answers.
Thank You to everybody who sweated out this past difficult week, trying to stay focused in spite of all the insanity provided by the United States Forest Service, the Arizona Department of Forestry, and the esteemed Law Professor.
And thank you to Aaron Hulburd who both captured the important videos we have been discussing all week and risked his life to do so while attempting, through fire and brimstone, to save the lives of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
This is not a game.
Namaste
Elizabeth wrote ( in response to Method )…
>> When the USDA (which is the “parent” organization over the USFS) “redacted”
>> (or blurred) parts of the videos with the “R” in the name, the USDA had to save
>> those videos (the ones with the”R” in the names) in NEW file formats (as, say, Mp4
>> instead of whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video originally),
If you are NOT lying about having ‘original byte-for-byte copies’ of the same material that was released last Saturday by USFS ( via Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel )… then just look at the EXIF metadata for the 18 files that the USFS insists were not redacted in any way.
Right there… you will see this ‘whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video’.
Then tell us what that ‘original format’ actually was for ANY of those other ‘unredacted’ videos.
If you can’t do that… then you don’t have ‘original byte-for-byte copies’ of the material…
…and that means you are a LIAR.
I think we just wasted a large chunk of yesterday.
Trying to chase down another, as TTWARE warned, red herring.
I’m moving on. I suggest we all do.
Her little games are just not worth our time. Seriously.
I don’t think she even knows what “exif metadata” is, or how to go about finding it. Seriously.
That’s why I made the comment about her comment about the flipphone videos.
If she had any clue whatsoever about what she was talking about, she would never have written that comment.
She thinks it’s a game.
Marti… you are right.
This is all just ‘games’ and ‘noise’ coming from her.
I thought you would catch the irony of what I posted above.
If she has ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of any videos… she doesn’t even need to look at the EXIF data.
She can just look at the file extension to see what ‘original FORMAT’ these videos are in.
.MOV, AVI, 3GP, etc, etc.
The EXIF data would just simply be telling you MORE about it.
She doesn’t have what she claims to have.
She’s a liar.
Oh, right!
Thanks!
I was too busy chasing actioncams with zooms, I hadn’t even thought about that.
Plus I just don’t do enough video to be handily thinking about that.
Although I do appreciate the fact that her inane questions about the wind compelled me to sit down and really think about that and write what I wrote about the weather and the fire and the topography on this fire.
I really needed to do that.
So there’s that.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Once again, I ALLEGE that you PROVE yourself to be a LIAR, DEVIOUS, VENOMOUS, with hidden agendas and so much more, with your despicable attitudes and behaviors. WHY do you continue to persist in this manner? You accuse others of what YOU yourself are responsible for and YOU yourself are doing on a regular basis. You are the CONSUMMATE HYPOCRITE! Who do you think you are anyway? Were you an only child and this is the only way you can get the attention you so desperately need? You are SO far off base on almost everything you post anymore, full of lies, falsehoods, and half-truths and then some. You are definitely setting a new standard for Law Professors. And your pattern is SO predicable as well. This latest one with you claiming to have all the original videos is an all-time classic though, and may top the Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy charts. A new zenith in Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy lies and hypocrisy! Please crawl back into your hole or into your web.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
“You are definitely setting a new standard for Law Professors.”
Perfect.
Thank you for putting my exact thoughts into words.
I am completely appalled.
I have never known any Law Professors.
I have known, however, and awesome New Mexico State Supreme Court Judge.
She would have been completely appalled by this, also, I am sure.
RTS,
You may be pulling your punches a little bit. How many times has Elizabeth Nowicki shared information on this comment board that had been given to her privately? I don’t recall your ever having given her permission to use your name, for instance, but she did. She seemingly repeated, on here, details of private communications between the two of you, I believe again without your permission. That kind of failure to exercise normal rules of social courtesy as regards communications made in confidence would be poor behavior from someone working a fast food counter, but is incredibly poor in my opinion coming from an attorney.
Agree.
SR,
Thanks for your input. I appreciate it very much. I certainly AM ‘pulling my punches’ by trying to do the right thing and be as ‘sensitive’ as I can to the Black Widow Spider (BWS) Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy. It appalls me, yet does NOT surprise me that she is doing all this and behaving in the childish, yet devious manner that she is. Once again, she has set a new standard for Law Professors. This especially includes violating confidential matters by openly exposing to the world what was written in confidence between two agreeable (at the time) parties. She did NOT have my permission to expose any of what she has spewed forth. Her actions are the epitome of BASIC legal professionalism and BASIC common courtesy just thrown in your face.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
SR,
Clarification. It should read “Her actions are the epitome of VIOLATIONS of BASIC legal professionalism and BASIC common courtesy just thrown in your face.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE ELIZABETH/LOGICAL PHALLACY YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS AS SHE WILL USE IT AGAINST YOU. YOU WILL BE SORRY..
At 4:12 PM today, November 16, 2014,
The counselor and Law Professor, Elizabeth, wrote the following, regarding the original files of Aaron Hulburd’s extremely important video collection:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
Sorry, counselor and Law Professor.
All things considered, I don’t believe for a second you are in possession of what you claim, here, to be.
FAIL
Apparently, since the Law Professor is, seemingly, unable/unwilling to answer the fundamental question I asked her at 5:17 PM today:
“What cameras was Aaron using?”
…which would corroborate her ASTONISHING (all things considered) claim at 4:23 PM today that:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
and thus prove her credibility;
having, instead, prioritized attacking Bob Powers,
I rest my case that the said Law Professor appears to be more committed to her personal agenda (whatever that is),
than the search for TRUTH regarding both the videos in question, which are extremely important (to the point of being FOIA’d), and, therefore the TRUTH regarding this devastating wildfire and its subsequent investigations.
Marti… there are only two possibilities here.
1) The person commenting here known as ‘Elizabeth’ is telling the truth, and she did receive original byte-for-byte copies of material that USFS has in their possession at some unknown time prior to the orchestrated public release of information last Saturday, and the fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request a few days after that.
2) She is lying.
** IF (1) is TRUE
Then we actually owe her some thanks. She has done nothing but prove that everything we have been saying here all along is TRUE and she has automatically justified the thoughts, postings and information that regularly appears here on this forum.
But she has also gone further.
She has just basically provided PROOF that the US Forestry Service may have just violated Federal Law.
Here is what Mr. John Dougherty has already said publicly about what he received as a (supposed) valid ‘response’ to his legal FOIA request…
——————————————————————
Investigative MEDIA
Article: Forest Service releases Yarnell Hill Fire videos to InvestigativeMEDIA
November 12, 2014 By John Dougherty
The U.S. Forest Service has released to InvestigativeMEDIA the same set of Yarnell Hill Fire videos the Arizona Forestry Division posted on its website on Saturday, Nov. 8.
InvestigativeMEDIA filed a Freedom of Information Act request for the videos on Oct. 13. There is no indication that the Arizona Forestry Division filed a separate Freedom of Information Act request for the documents. The Forest Service has not provided an explanation of why the Forestry Division received the videos prior to InvestigativeMEDIA. The division states it received the videos on Nov. 7.
————————————————————————–
The letter of fulfillment that was received by InvestigativeMEDIA was directly from…
Tom Harbour – US Forest Service – Director of Fire and Aviation Management,
The key sentence is…
“The U.S. Forest Service has released to InvestigativeMEDIA the SAME set of Yarnell Hill Fire videos the Arizona Forestry Division posted on its WEBSITE on Saturday, Nov. 8”.
THOSE files ( the ones Arizona Forestry has posted on their website / YouTube channel ) are in no way ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of the requested material, as are legally required to be provided in response to valid FOIA requests.
If Elizabeth DID receive MORE than that, or DIFFERENT, more complete versions of the same material in response to HER FOIA request(s)… then she has just proved that the US Forestry Service is ‘picking and choosing’ how to fulfill valid, legal FOIA requests… depending on WHO is making the request.
That’s illegal.
She would deserve ‘thanks again’ for now supplying public testimony that the US Forestry Service may have just committed a punishable offense.
I am sure some media outlets will follow up on this. It would be a big story, if true.
** IF (2) is TRUE ( That she is simply a liar )
Then I, for one, would respectfully request that she never post to this ongoing discussion again.
She now has an opportunity to PROVE whether it’s ‘door number (1)’ or ‘door number (2).
I hope she avails herself of the opportunity.
Exactly.
That’s part of the reason I used the term “astonishing” to describe her claim, which she seems so completely either unable or unwilling to corroborate.
Dear JD~
Can we Freds pleeze haz a new chapter?
Pretty Pleeze?
I know you must be really, really busy, given all this insanity surrounding the USFS –> Arizona Forestry Inc. release of the (cough cough) Aaron Hulburd videos, and I really appreciate all you do.
However, it’s really getting hard to type and post comments here.
Thank you in advance!
Signed,
Moi
I second the request.
This ‘chapter’ is already too large for it to completely load on a number of mobile devices.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 16, 2014 at 1:20 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions
>> whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE
>> are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they
>> not already provided?”
>>
>> They WERE already provided.
To who?
The material sitting on YouTube is by no means byte-for-byte copies of the originals.
If they were… we would be seeing all the original EXIF metatdata in the files.
We are NOT.
Mr. Dougherty has indicated that the material he has received on a DVD that is also supposed to be a valid (legal) fulfillment of his original FOIA request is nothing more than the same YouTube videos linked to on the Arizona Forestry website prior to the fullfillment of his request.
I would HOPE they actually sent Mr. Dougherty valid, legal, byte-for-byte copies of the material they have in their possession ( as they are supposed to )… but it doesn’t sound like that happened.
I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.
Fabulous!
What cameras was Aaron using?
The campfire circle waits with baited breath.
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 16, 2014 AT 6:01 PM
One would think a Law Professor would_____________________________
(Instructions: Fill in the blank section above the line.)
One Possible Answer:
Answer the obvious question that would prove he/she is telling the truth, instead of diverting it by attacking somebody else.
Oh, wait a minute……
Maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point”
“What I DID say to you, Bob Powers, is that the lies and rumors you have repeatedly posted here are concerning. For example, some of your more recent lies or rumors are: the families had all previewed the videos…”
Still seeking submissions.
Marti, if you haven’t noticed, I am not putting up videos that I have re the YHF on youtube any more. But I imagine that John Dougherty will do it if you e-mail him and ask him politely. 🙂
Sorry, counselor.
That doesn’t answer my question.
Which, if you truly are in possession of what you say you are in possession of, you should easily be able to answer.
I would think a Law Professor would easily understand that.
Another possible answer.
Answer the obvious question that would prove he/she is telling the truth, instead of diverting it by sharing what somebody else may or may not have in their possession.
Oh wait, maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point:
“Marti, if you haven’t noticed, I am not putting up videos that I have re the YHF on youtube any more. But I imagine that John Dougherty will do it if you e-mail him and ask him politely.”
Another possible answer.
Be able to successfully demonstrate how to be cross-examined, especially when one’s credibility is being questioned.
Oh wait, maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
Case in point:
Crickets in response to the $64,000 question.
Tap Tap Tap
Still waiting for the answer to the $64,000 question.
Apparently, since our counselor, the esteemed Law Professor is, seemingly, unable/unwilling to answer the fundamental question I asked her at 5:17 PM (two and a half hours ago):
“What cameras was Aaron using?”
…which would corroborate her claim at 4:23 PM (almost three and a half hours ago) that started this whole thread:
“I have it (at least for the ones I bothered to check), and I know that others have it.
I don’t know what JD has.”
and thus prove her credibility;
having, instead, prioritized attacking Bob Powers,
I rest my case that our counselor, the esteemed Law Professor, appears to be more committed to her personal agenda (whatever that is),
than the search for TRUTH regarding both the videos in question, which are extremely important (to the point of being FOIA’d), and, therefore the TRUTH regarding this devastating wildfire and its subsequent investigations.
Correction.
I should have written:
“…which would corroborate her astonishing claim at 4:23 PM (almost three and a half hours ago) that started this whole thread:
Because that claim is, indeed ASTONISHING, all things considered.
One would think a Law Professor, when making an ASTONISHING claim, all things considered, would understand the necessity of PROVING that claim, all things considered.
Evidently you have not bothered to check any thing.
You bet the Farm that the whole thing on the Videos was rumors.
and you lost………..Now you have no information no contacts that have any thing
but your still in a hole attempting to impress WHO????????????????
No one here cares.
Same time replies nice Marti
I swore I had rested my case.
But. I. Just. Couldn’t. Resist.
Bob, just to clarify, I never said there were no further videos. I, actually, have long been aware of them (or actually in possession of them).
My point to you was that, contrary to your adamant contentions that these videos were going to reveal an argument between Steed and Marsh, I knew that they wouldn’t. I also made the point – correctly – that you and Fred Schoeffler were wrong about the families having viewed the videos. And you and Fred were wrong about ADOSH somehow having anything to do with the videos. And you and Fred were starting rumors – that were wrong – about Brendan having been deposed. All of that was wrong…. and I was CORRECT that you and Fred Schoeffler were getting all of that wrong.
Good try, though, Bob. Good try. 🙂
So now you are saying you have had these videos for some time that were just released. Now I have herd every thing You lie to make your self the outstanding investigator of all time.
A few days ago you said there were no additional Videos and we were just creating rumors.
Good luck on all that BS
Bob, I NEVER said there were no more videos – I knew that there were, and I know that there are actually more still, which I reached out to JD regarding (because I obviously have largely given up posting stuff publicly, although I still e-mail materials to people who want them privately).
What I DID say to you, Bob Powers, is that the lies and rumors you have repeatedly posted here are concerning. For example, some of your more recent lies or rumors are: the families had all previewed the videos that the AZFD just posted last weekend, ADOSH was somehow involved, the videos showed an argument between Steed and Marsh, Brendan was deposed. You remember those lies, right, Bob? THOSE were the things with which I was disagreeing.
I never denied that Hulburd (and others) had more video, because most of us already KNEW that for a fact. Indeed, there are more videos still, beyond the ones that I am assuming JD has recently received (although none that I know of (or already have) are Hulburd’s other than the ones already made public).
Elizabeth Some one like you calls me a Liar.
Who the F**K do you think you are????
The argument is on the redacted info/Notes
and on a copied video from one of the GM crew that was mailed to a family member I was Told. The Statements from Dudley confirm The argument
I have nothing more to say to a total F**King Moron .
Bob, don’t waste your valuable emotional energy.
I’m cross-examing her.
Come join the fun!
Start with my questionnaire!
Hint.
Look upstream.
I’m not sure she’s capable of being cross-examined, though.
Hmmmmmmm.
One would think a Law Professor would know how to do that.
Maybe they don’t teach that in Law School?
I wish I had the ability to pull up past postings for Elizabeth
Look at what Elizabeth poster to me on Nov. 8th @1133 am
In short—- there are no new videos and I was just starting RUMMERS Dam Counselor you better check what you say before you attack people for the truth.
That was just before all the Videos were released and you started becoming a fool. Now you state you knew all about them. You are a total and complete fool who has lost her worth here…………
Bob, what I said was this:
“Bob Powers and Fred Schoeffler said the helmet camera was going to be released by ADOSH days ago. But yet it is not here. Before you start rumors, guys, do your research first, ok?”
And that was TRUE. Not a damn thing came from ADOSH, which everyone who knew about those videos (which did not include either you or Fred, it seems) obviously knew.
I also said “as best I can tell, there is zero validity to the rumor Bob and Fred keep trying to start that Brendan has some big secret he is withholding and refusing to share and only now willing to share.”
And that remains the TRUTH, Bob. You and Fred are relentless with the inaccurate rumors and untruths. My personal opinion is that such things are hurtful and disruptive to both the grieving families and the grieving friends/community. I am entitled to my opinion on that, just as you are entitled to yours. 🙂
Please respond to the $64,000 question which will, easily and quickly establish your credibility as to your claim (which you started this thread with) to being in possession of the original videos in question.
What cameras was Aaron using?
Given that you keep saying you are so keen on
the TRUTH
Elizabeth
You took that hook line and sinker.
I rest my case
You should know better————-
Lesson #1 of Internet Conversations.
Don’t. Feed. The. Trolls.
Our counselor is clearly acting in a way befitting a Troll here.
I think it’s high time to quite feeding said counselor.
She’s truly
Wasting. Our. Precious. Time.
One would think a Law Professor would_____________________________
(Instructions: Fill in the blank section above the line.)
Can’t answer that question and/or make any suggestions.
I don’t know who she is working for, or what her agenda really is.
** THE COLORS MATTER
Reminds me of a test I took in college.
It was a final exam in a Theatrical Lighting class.
The professor hands out 3D drawing of a box set on a stage and says we are supposed to ‘draw in’ the electrics and what they call the ‘hang’ ( what fresnels go where, where we would use pano-spots, etc. ) and indicate what color ‘gels’ we would use.
The drawings he handed out were all just black/white Xerox copies of the same sketch. Everyone got the same ‘drawing’.
I was done with the test in 3 minutes.
All I did was write at the top of the paper…
I can’t answer the questions or perform the task.
You have neglected to indicate what COLOR the set is painted.
I was the only one who got an ‘A+’ on the test.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 16, 2014 at 4:12 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> I have it,
Super!
What is the DEVICE name ( Make / Model ) of the camera Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot the videos, then?
She already TOLD us, WTKTT!!!
Just a few days ago (this past week feels like a month, so there’s that), our counselor was absolutely sure the first three were taken with one of those flip callphones that firefighters use because nobody can afford to use the newer ones.
Fine… the let her answer my question.
What is the NAME ( Make / Model ) of the device?
Exactly.
Checkmate.
Look upstream.
Sorry, counselor.
All things considered, I don’t believe for a second you are in possession of what you claim, here, to be.
FAIL
**
** MORE ABOUT THE FIRST THREE ( NEWLY RELEASED ) VIDEOS
Here is some more information about the first THREE videos that were part of the 21 just released by the US Forestry Service.
It still seems they are NOT actually from Aaron Hulburd’s specific ‘Helmet Camera’ ( or whatever kind of camera he was actually using that afternoon to shoot all those other M2U00xxx videos )… but it DOES appear they WERE taken by Aaron Hulburd with the other two of the ‘Prescott Three’. ( Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).right there next to him ( in their UTVs ).
Here is why.
In other photos and videos from the fire… we can definitely see ( and have verified ) that the VEHICLES that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were driving were all ‘staged’ there on the side of the road just a few hundred yards south of the Incident Command Post there at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley…
…but they are not IN the vehicles and the two UTVs are GONE from the trailers attached to Clawson and Yowell’s pickup trucks.
So they were out ‘bombing around’ on the fire somewhere when those other photos and videos captured their vehicles ‘staged’ there by the ICP.
As it turns out… this ‘burnout operation’ represented in the new ‘first three’ videos is where they actually seemed to have gone in their UTVs.
At exactly +27 seconds in the SECOND of these first three videos ( Video 0630131533 ), The ‘roll-cage’ and back storage section of a UTV suddenly slips into view in the very bottom left corner of the video.
Only KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV ( with the red hood and fenders ) had a roll-cage.
Jason Clawson’s UTV had no such roll-cage ( at least not on that day ).
So whoever is shooting this video ( 0630131533 ) of that in-progress burnout operation up there on Model Creek Road was standing in the middle of the road… but also standing NEXT to this UTV with the roll-cage that we can now see was right there next to him.
At the very end of this video… you can even see the Nomex-shirt ( elbow? ) of whoever was standing to the cameraman’s LEFT briefly come into view. So that is proof that there was at least one other person ( with a Nomex shirt on ) standing to the LEFT of whoever was filming this particular video.
In the NEXT video with filename 0630131534 ( the THIRD of these first 3 videos in the new release )… the camera is now MOVING BACKWARDS as it films the men conducting more of the burnout operation.
The camera perspective is now from the RIGHT-CENTER of the road, and not from DEAD-CENTER in the road like the other two videos that precede this one.
At exactly +13 seconds into this THIRD video ( 0630131534 )… we again suddenly see part of the same UTV seen in the previous video to the LEFT of the camera… and it, too, is now ‘creeping forward’ on the road.
However… THIS time… we actually do see the RED FENDERS of the UTV which means it was most probably KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV. I haven’t actually seen ANY other UTVs on the fire that day that had a RED hood and RED fenders like Yowell’s did.
Some of the GEAR that is in the back of this RED-fendered UTV also matches what can be seen later on in other views of Yowell’s UTV over on Shrine Road in the M2U00xxx video series.
But there is more.
At the very END of this video… just for a moment… we seem to ALSO see the fender of Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV come into view in about the mid-left-center-bottom of the video as the ‘movement’ of the camera actually also seems to ‘pick up speed’ a little.
Seems to be proof that BOTH of the ‘Prescott Three’ UTVs were actually right there up on Model Creek Road… with Jason Clawson actively driving his and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actively driving his… so that only leaves Aaron Hulburd with ‘hands free’ to be the one filming the burnout.
So here is what I think all this proves…
1) After Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell unloaded their UTVs from their trailers up there where they were parked near the ICP… all 3 of ‘The Prescott Three’ headed up to the Model Creek Road area in the TWO UTVs.
2) Once there… Aaron Hulburd exited KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s RED-fendered UTV and was then standing in the middle of the dirt road and began filming this ‘burnout’ operation coming TOWARDS them.
3) In the SECOND video… Yowell and his RED-fendered UTV ( with roll-cage ) was to Hulburd’s LEFT while he was filming down the road, and Jason Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV ( with no roll cage ) was actually there to Hulburd’s RIGHT, but never comes into view in this video.
4) In the THIRD video… Hulburd has now SAT on the BACK of Jason Clawson’s UTV, and he is still filming the ‘burnout’ operation coming towards them… but now BOTH Yowell and Clawson are driving BOTH UTV’s slowly forward, side-by-side, in order to stay ahead of the approaching burnout operation. At the end of the video… Jason Clawson picks up speed a little and that is why we suddenly see the RED fender of Yowell’s UTV come into view for a moment. Clawson got a little ‘ahead’ of Yowell who was also creeping forward in his UTV on the LEFT side of the video and that’s when we see Yowell’s RED fender appear there.
This still doesn’t FULLY explain why these videos do NOT match the resolution of Aaron Hulburd’s other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos… or why these videos use a DATE/TIME stamp for a filename and the others ones use the M2U00xxx filename convention… but I think we can take a pretty darn good guess at that, now.
Aaron Hulburd had some OTHER device with him capable of shooting movies and THAT is what he was using to shoot these FIRST three videos that we can now see.
It also makes sense that it would be Aaron Hulburd filming this ‘burnout’ operation up there on Model Creek Road. He is a career ‘Fuels Specialist’ for the Prescott National Forest… and this ‘burnout’ is exactly the sort of thing he would be interested in recording on film. Yowell and Clawson were just driving the two UTVs at that point.
I do believe we ARE looking at least TWO different ‘devices’ used to shoot the video that has appeared in the latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS… but they BOTH probably belonged to Aaron Hulburd.
So that begs a new question which is similar to the one that has finally ‘shaken loose’ these other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos.
Whatever OTHER ‘video/audio’ capable device Hulburd might have been using to shoot these ‘burnout operation’ videos… was that REALLY the ONLY time he shot any videos or captured any radio transmissions that day with THAT ‘other’ device?
That is what the new USFS release would have us believe… the same way they wanted us to believe that the original ‘Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY footage was the ONLY time Hulburd used his Helmet-Cam that day, as well.
I do NOT trust the US Forestry Service ( or Arizona Forestry ).
There could still be MORE videos just from that ‘other’ device Hulburd appears to have been using that day to shoot the burnout operation on Model Creek Road.
As I originally said that it was NOT CREDIBLE that the original MAYDAY footage could have been the ONLY time a true-blue videophile like Aaron Hulburd would have actually USED his Helmet Camera that day ( and it turns out my instincts were correct )… I also do NOT believe that if Hulburd had another video/audio capable device with him that day that he would have ONLY used it that ONE time there on Model Creek Road.
** A WORD ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FOIA REQUEST AND WHAT ENDED UP ‘RELEASED’…
When ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ issued that FOIA request directly to the Prescott National Forest it was specifically asking for ‘Helmet Camera Video’ that was taken by any PNF employee who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Prescott National Forest obviously then had an ‘Oh Shit’ moment… and they immediately FORWARDED this valid FOIA request on to their ‘parent company’, the US Forestry Service.
In the letter that InvestigativeMEDIA got back from the USFS that was basically just ‘acknowledging’ the receipt of the FOIA request originally directed to Prescott National Forest… something got ‘mixed up’ as per what the actual REQUEST was.
Here is exactly what the ‘letter of receipt’ from USFS said…
—————————————————————————–
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter acknowledges receipt of your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated October 20, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office (WO) FOIA Service Center, Office of Regulatory and Management Services on October 21, 2014.
You requested access to the complete, unedited video taken by Prescott National Forest firefighters on June 30, 2013 during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
(snip)
Sincerely,
/s/ Jeffrey Jasper for
GEORGE VARGAS
Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act Officer
( US Forestry Service Logo appears here )
—————————————————————————–
Notice that the letter of receipt no longer specifically says that the FOIA request is for ‘Helmet Camera’ video ( only ).
So that is why those first THREE videos were probably included in this specific response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request for ‘Helmet Camera Video’.
When it hit the USFS… the ‘Helmet Camera’ specific part of the request had gotten ‘lost in the translation’ so now the request ‘morphed’ into one that was requesting ALL video(s) that might have been shot by a PNF employee on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So that’s why the other three ‘Non-Helmet-Camera’ videos also got ‘popped out of the darkness’ here and added to the beginning of the list of videos.
Whether or not this really is ALL of the ‘video shot by any PNF employee who was at the Yarnell fire’ still remains to be seen… but I think this proves WHY those other three Non-Helmet Camera videos probably ended up included in THIS release. They weren’t specifically what you could call ‘Helmet Camera’ videos… but they WERE videos taken by a PNF employee ( Hulburd ) in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
** A WORD ABOUT THESE FILENAMES
I am feeling the need to mention something about the filenames for these first three videos in the 21 just released by USFS.
The filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
It is pretty much ‘normal’ for a lot of video/audio capable devices to use this
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE style format for auto-naming the files
being saved to the memory card.
That in no way really tells us exactly what KIND of device was being used.
However… something is still a little odd.
If any device is using this kind of DATE + TIME format for actually naming files…
it is bascially IMPOSSIBLE for it to really only have been…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE
It pretty much HAD to have been at least…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE + SECOND.
Here is why.
You can’t possible expect a file naming scheme for a photo/video capable device to work when it can’t stamp the filenames down to at least the SECOND.
Anyone could take multiple photos/videos within a one minute timeframe and you also cannot possibly ever have TWO filenames on a memory card ( or even a hard drive ) with the EXACT same filename(s).
So if that device really was never using the SECONDS value for the filename stamping… it would have also have had to have been able to distinguish files all taken within the same minute with some kind of NAMING convention like this…
0630131532
0630131532(1)
0630131532(2)
0630131532(3)
Etc…
EACH of these first THREE files in this latest USFS evidence dump are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds long ( to within a few hundreths of a second ), and that is still not possible to achieve with the human hand working a shutter button… but I also still have no good explanation for that.
We would need to know more about the actual device in use to know more about that and whether it indicates any kind of ‘tampering’ with the original videos.
But… I still get the feeling that we are not seeing the ACTUAL (original) filenames for these first 3 videos in the recent ‘evidence dump’.
Each video is 29.8 ( Call it 30 ) seconds long… but the timestamps are all on consecutive MINUTE values ( 1532, 1533, 1534 ).
In order to believe these filenames are all exactly the way they originally were on the device’s memory card… that means we also have to believe that Aaron Hulburd ( or whoever took them ) also PAUSED for ( at least ) 30 seconds in-between each video filmed, and never tried to shoot anything that had the same MINUTE value for a start time.
I guess that’s possible… but regardless… something still tells me we are still not seeing the SECONDS value of the original filenames… which means these filenames themselves have been (essentiallly) ‘altered from the originals’.
That would be even more reason to question whether this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS really represents the original material they have in their possession… and whether it is, in fact, a full legal fulfillment of a valid FOIA request.
** MORE ABOUT THE UTVS
The rest of this is just for completeness sake and shows how we CAN know what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s and Jason Clawson’s UTVs really looked like.
The new M2U00xxx videos also finally give us better looks at the UTVs that belonged to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson that day… which has made it easier to identify them as the same ones that can seen for a few frames in the other 0630131532, 33 and 34 videos.
The M2U00267 video is 2 minutes and 18 seconds long.
At +1:36, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell turn around and start walking backing EAST to where their 2 UTV’s are parked back in the actual St. Joseph Shrine parking log.
The rest of the video is just them walking all the way back to where theri UTV’s are parked and the closer they get… the better you can see the 2 (parked) UTV’s.
The one on the LEFT belongs to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and is the one with the RED hood and fenders on it. It has BOTH a roll-cage and a windshield frame on it. It is also the one with two front seats and the one that Aaron Hulburd also travels when they all move around.
The UTV on the RIGHT is Jason Clawson’s. It appears to be pretty much the same make/model as Yowell’s with identical front grill and headlights, but it does NOT have either a roll-cage or a windshield frame installed ( at least not on that day ). It is all olive-drab. It also appears to have some ‘gear’ in the front which would make it hard for two people to travel in it… so that is probably why Aaron Hulburd was always traveling in the other UTV with Yowell whenever they were ‘moving around’ in these UTVs that day.
At about +2:09 or +2:11 ( in video M2U00267 ) is the best closeup view of BOTH of these UTVs sitting side-by-side.
When they reach the 2 UTV’s… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell moves towards the one on the left ( with the red fenders ) to get into the driver’s seat.Aarron Hulburd ( still filming ) is right behind Yowell and gets very close to him at this point and this is when you can clearly see that Hulburd’s camera has NOT been mounted on his Helmet for this video.
The camera lens is actually at about the same height as Yowell’s right elbow… which means it was probably clipped to Hulburd’s front shirt pocket while he was filming this M2U00267 video.
So whatever Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot these M2U00xxx videos that have come to be known as the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos probably wasn’t an actual brand-name Helmet Camera at all.
It is more likely it is just a device that is easily CLIPPED to things like a Helmet Bracket, or a short pocket, or whatever.
It it still important to know exactly WHAT device that was… what KIND of EXIF metadata SHOULD have been present in the video files themselves… and why NONE of that metadata has been included in what was supposed to be a valid fulfillment of a fully legal FOIA request.
Awesome! Thanks!
As soon as I looked at your post and saw that list of files, my brain went “Click.” I thought, “That CAN’T be the original filenames….”
And great analysis of the Model Creek burnout videos. I think they were having a blast. That, to me, is the sign of a true videophile. When I’m “in my zone” as a photographer (and it’s actually a PHYSICAL thing), I don’t stop shooting until I’m either exhausted or my cards or batteries have run out.
It’s also a mental/visual thing. Your eye starts seeing everything that’s “talking.” And it’s never just one thing that’s “talking.” There’s usually a big visual “conversation” that’s going on all around you. It’s hard to describe it. But you capture it.
I “saw” that happening with Chris McKenzie, through the eye of his lens. I could actually almost “feel” him seeing and clicking. And he was very very good at that.
I’m not a wedding photographer, but I’ve taken online classes from some of the best of them on CreativeLIVE. They also describe that “dance” of the photographer and the scene and the camera in the midst of the creative and emotional chaos of a wedding.
And, that tells me, also, that I’d bet big money Aaron was doing a WHOLE lot more filming than we are seeing.
You capture it. Because you HAVE to.
That’s a photographer. That’s a videographer.
I might add that a viewer of the pre released showing stated that the pre viewing of the video that the camera was hand held and not a helmet cam which I missed or forgot when I heard of the Videos was lulled into head cam.
So the clip on is probably a better description.
PNF employees did they have more than 1 camera or 1 person had 2?????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 16, 2014 at 5:40 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> So the clip on is probably a better description.
Yes.
When we find out exactly what it was ( and we most surely WILL )… I believe it will turn out to just be that Hulburd had a ‘Helmet Adapter’ for this particular camera or smartphone…but it is not marketed or branded as an ‘official’ ‘Helmet Camera’
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> PNF employees did they have more than 1 camera
>> or 1 person had 2?????
Good question.
The original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request sent directly to Prescott National Forest ( and then forwarded immediately by PNF to their ‘parent company’… the US Forestry Service ) was specifically requesting ‘Helmet Camera Videos’ taken by any PNF employee.
Somebody at Prescott National Forest screwed up, it seems, when they forwarded the FOIA request and then the ‘letter or receipt’ from USFS to InvestigativeMEDIA said it understood the request to be for ALL VIDEO ( not just Helmet Camera Video ) from anyone who worked for Prescott Forest.
Keyword here ( in both cases ) is VIDEO.
There are no PHOTOGRAPHS in this latest ‘evidence dump’.
Just VIDEO… as USFS understood the original request to be.
So God knows how many actual PHOTOGRAPHS they ( USFS ) might have that were taken by these same men ( The Prescott Three ) with the same cameras.
It’s not credible that these men would have had cameras with them that day ( as we know they did ) and not have been USING them.
Everyone else was.
Someone needs to issue a separate FOIA for ‘All photographs taken at the Yarnell Hill Fire by any employee of the Prescott National Forest’.
This is like pulling teeth.
These people aren’t going to just ‘come clean’.
They are ONLY going to ‘give up’ something when the FOIA request specifically targets what they have in their possession.
By the way… a long time ago ( shortly after I first identified the shooter of the original MAYDAY footage as Aaron Hulburd, and the other two men in the video as Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) and I then discovered that all three of them were these Bea Day Type 2 team off-the-radar hires and that they all worked for the Prescott National Forest…
…I got tired of constantly typing…
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
So I decided to give myself a break and just call them…
“The Prescott Three”.
I think I’m going to change that and just start calling them…
“The Three Prescotteers”
( LOL… I told you it was going to take some humor to get this latest round of USFS / AZF bullshit ).
Bingo!
And you do know that Prescott is pronounced like Biscuit, don’t you?
Press-kit. NOT Press-cot.
That’s really important to know.
So it’s The Three Press-kiteers.
OK, time for me to go back to bed, obviously.
Of course, it’s still spelled the same.
This pronunciation thing is just for when we are interviewed by major mainstream media.
Good Morning!!
Hope this week goes better than last week!
Altho some people who are really into video don’t do a lot of photography.
Why bother?
Videographers are capturing, most essentially, MOTION.
You can always pull a still out of a video.
I think Chris was way more into capturing stills than video.
I think, similarly, Aaron may have been way more into capturing motion than stills.
And regarding Chris and stills.
A lot of us who have “cut our teeth” in photography are still uncomfortable shooting video. We tend to be all perfectionistic when it comes to images, and have honed our skills to do that,
and video is truly a “horse of a different color.”
To get really good video requires a whole different set of technical skills.
So we are way more comfortable shooting stills than video.
I think Aaron might have been totally fine with just shooting video.
Copy ( all ) that…
…but I was actually agreeing with Mr. Powers.
It is perfectly possible that ALL THREE of the “Prescotteers” had cameras with them.
We still don’t know the full 411 on these guys… what they might ahve had with them that day… or even who the hell was giving them any ‘assignments’ or whether they were truly just ‘freelancing’ all over Yarnell that day.
In these videos just released… they really do just look like ‘tourists’ hanging around and ‘watching’ everyone else ‘do things’.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was actually barking some orders at people from time to time ( Like ‘Hey Charlie… you need to be at the head of the column” )… but you can tell that was just him. He’s a Type A personality. Finds it hard to be quiet.
But we still have no idea what AUTHORITY these guys had to be telling ANYONE who was officially on the Arizona State Forestry Division payroll to be doing anything that day.
I have looked carefully for any ‘cameras’ clipped to the belts or in the pockets of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson… and I don’t see anything visible… but that doesn’t mean they didn’t have them.
Example: Not only do we seem to actually SEE Jason Clawson talking on a ‘smartphone’ as his vehicle crosses the Panebaker camera setup headed for Yarnell…
…there were MANY individual phone calls that day directly between Jason Clawson and Darrell Wills from the time Clawson arrived… up to… and beyond the deployment.
So it’s pretty safe to say Clawson DID have a ‘smartphone’ with him that day.
Did he take any pictures ( or video ) with it?
We still can’t be sure he did NOT.
“…there were MANY individual phone calls that day directly between Jason Clawson and Darrell Wills from the time Clawson arrived… up to… and beyond the deployment.”
Is that from Willis’ interviews/unit log?
I’m wondering if, since Bea Day, the Type 2 LONG Teams Incident Commander was actually there, that she might have been “assigning” her people to their tasks?
There was so much confusion going on with this.
And, yes about the Prescotteers most likely having other imaging in their possession.
Marti Reed says
November 16, 2014 at 5:04 pm
Awesome! Thanks!
>> Marti said…
>>
>> As soon as I looked at your post and saw that list of files, my
>> brain went “Click.” I thought, “That CAN’T be the original
>> filenames….”
Here is something else to consider ( and something I am still putting a stopwatch on here and will report about soon ).
Again… the filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
All THREE of these videos are EXACTLY 29.8 seconds long ( give or take a few hundreths of a second ).
So… we are supposed to believe the following…
NOTE: For the sake of just explaining what I’m about to explain, I am going to assume what I established above is correct… that it was Aaron Hulburd operating this camera for these 3 videos and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell was busy actually driving his red-fendered UTV… and Jason Clawson was also busy actually driving his olive-colored UTV.
Aaron shoots the FIRST 29.8 second long 0630131532 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock was somewhere between 1532 and 1533 and that’s why the filename is timestamped the way it is… at 1532.
Aaron then pauses NO MORE than 30 seconds before he then starts shooting the SECOND 29.8 second long 0630131533 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1532 and 1533… hence… the 1533 filename suffix.
Once again… Aaron then pauses NO MORE than 30 seconds before he then starts shooting the THIRD 29.8 second long 0630131534 video.
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1533 and 1534… hence… the 1534 filename suffix.
Sounds GOOD, right? Sounds perfectly POSSIBLE, right?
Well… here is the NEWS FLASH.
It appears ( based on what is actually being filmed ) that there are MORE than 30 seconds of actual real-life separation in the parts of reality that lie in-between the videos.
That means ( since each video is already 29.8 seconds long ) that if there were MORE than just 30.2 seconds of reality happening in-between the videos themselves… then it is not possible for the filenames to be the way they are.
It is actually looking like the real-time separation between the end of the SECOND video and the start of the THIRD video had to be even a little more than SIXTY seconds ( perhaps more )… based on the ACTUAL movement of the men and the truck that is coming forward on the road.
If that turns out to be the case… then there is NO WAY that THIRD 29.8 second video could possibl have a timestamped filename of 0630131534.
It would have HAD to have been at least a minute LATER than 1534
and looked something like 0630131535 or (perhaps) 0630131536.
Still figuring this out ( with a stopwatch, Google Earth, and some software ).
More later.
Shoot… I mis-typed something in ‘Step 4’ above.
I hope it was obvious that was a typo.
That ‘step’ should have been…
The ‘second hand’ of the clock is now between 1533 and 1534… hence… the 1533 filename suffix.
**
** TIME FOR A NEW CHAPTER?
This is just a ‘heads up’ to everyone.
I think this Chapter might be exceeding the limits of the WordPress software again.
Some ‘orphaned comments’ are starting to appear in weird places… such as the follwing from ‘mike’ that somehow is now appearing at the very BOTTOM of this Chapter and not where it was intended to appear…
—————————————————
On November 15, 2014 at 4:41 pm, mike said…
Did not know that about Brown.
Checked and he a cat 1 racer – i.e. VERY elite.
Believe me, he is in shape.
—————————————————
If a comment doesn’t seem to appear… check the very BOTTOM of this Chapter.
‘Orphanded’ comments can often appear WAY down there when WordPress is starting to go brain-dead because of too many messages.
Thanks John!!
Oops,
thanks wtktt!!
it’s definitely time for me to go do something else. Like watch an awesome dance performance!
Followup… I actually think it would make sense to start a new chapter that coincides with the latest release of ‘evidence’ from USFS.
We haven’t even really begun to fully analyze it and it would make sense to start a new chapter for that.
Just thought I’d let you know I provided all that fluff down below to help move this process along.
It is, in TRUTH (cough cough) the ONLY reason I did it.
As I told Mr. Powers below when he jokingly said he thought M2U just stands for ‘Me To You’… it’s gonna take some humor to get through this latest round of bullshit ‘brought to you by’ the US Forestry Service ( and Arzizona Forestry ).
Thanks for providing some.
That sequence was HILARIOUS ( and actually spot-on ).
I worked on the Navajo Reservation.
That explains everything.
Survival Skilz.
Actually I worked for the Elders of the Big Mountain Sovereign Dine Nation.
Which explain even more about my Survival Skilz.
They were fighting Congress.
In response to “Methods,” the videos with the “R” at the end of them are “redacted,” which explains why you can see them in different formats than you can with the other videos in that bunch (that apparently John Dougherty is only now getting). Meaning: when the USDA (which is the “parent” organization over the USFS) “redacted” (or blurred) parts of the videos with the “R” in the name, the USDA had to save those videos (the ones with the”R” in the names) in NEW file formats (as, say, Mp4 instead of whatever format they were in when Aaron took the video originally), which explains why you can therefore view them in different formats (or whatever the technical word is) than you can with the videos that do NOT have the “R” in the name.
Phrased differently, in order to “redact” or blur things out, the USDA had to save those videos – and only those videos (with the “R” in the name) – in a DIFFERENT format (which then allows you to view them differently, as you observed).
Sorry.
I can edit any frickin video I want to, in Lightroom or Photoshop, and save it in the original format, or any other format I CHOOSE to.
Reply to Method’s post on November 15, 2014 at 11:48 am
>> Method said…
>>
>> From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom.
>> These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and
>> give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle
>> lenses on them.
Exactly correct.
>> Method also said…
>>
>> I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
Neither do we, at this point. Still trying to determine that.
As I said yesterday… even though the original MAYDAY footage that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called “The Helmet Cam Video”… Aaron’s camera might not have been an actual de-facto ‘Helmet Camera’ at all. In some of the newly released videos it is obvious that it was just clipped to his front shirt pocket like some of the newer ‘Body Cam’ cameras Police are using. It could have been just something that was able to CLIP to a Helmet Bracket… or a shirt pocket… or whatever.
>> Method also said…
>>
>> One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released
>> videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in
>> 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p.
>> My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching
>> between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate
>>cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has
>> all ready been discussed.
Even though US Forestry has removed MOST of the EXIF metadata from ALL of these ‘copies’ of Hulburd material they released… it appears that SOME of the original EXIF data survived their copies and their conversions.
Here is a post I made yesterday down below in response to Mr. Powers which explains what I am seeing and coincides with what you, yourself have noticed about these ‘files’.
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> This was not the original videos so an assignment of
>> numbers could have come as the segments were copied
Yes. It’s possible.
Mr. Powers… what you are about to see is that there IS more evidence ‘lurking’ in these videos.
Even though what has been released are not ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the originals and all the original DEVICE metadata has been purposely REMOVED from them… there are STILL some pieces of EXIF metadata that will survive most ‘conversions’ and ‘editing’.
One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA
FWVGA = Full Wide Video Graphics Array.
However… any file in the AZF release that has had an ‘R’ added to the end of it ends up with a DIFFERENT video resolution.
All the files with an ‘R’ added seem to be in the 1280×720 format.
Also… the M2Uxxxx clips that have retained what appears to be the original FWVGA ( 854×480 ) formatting are also showing a sound codec handler named Lavf54.29.104…
…but the M2Uxxxx files in the release that have an ‘R’ added to the filename are simply showing a sound codec handler name of ‘Apple’.
So what the hell does all that mean?
It means that the ORIGINALS ( from Hulburd’s camera ) were probably shot with a device that uses the FWVGA 854×480 dimensions and the Lavf54.29.104 audio codec…
…but files that have been EDITED by US Forestry were edited on an
Apple computer and then ‘saved’ back to disk with an altered format
of 1280×720 and a reconvert on the audio track using Apple’s sound codec.
This does NOT mean that the ones still using the FWVGA 854×480 format and the Lav54.29.104 codec have NOT been altered.
They still might have been ‘truncated’ either at the start, or the end… or both… and still retained those settings of the orginal metadata.
It just means that it is perfectly obvious which files the US Forestry was editing manually and making actual CHANGES to the interior of the video before ‘saving’ the material back to disk… and that all these files they were EDITING were being done on an Apple computer.
Even if they hadn’t been adding that stupid ‘R’ letter to the ends of the filenames they are ADMITTING to altering… we would still have been able to tell which ones they were monkeying with on their Apple Computer.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
I am still checking on that. Stay tuned.
I still maintain that the US Forestry Service has still NOT lawfully complied with any legal FOIA request because we are not seeing the actual EXIF DEVICE information in these files.
You are allowed to make redactions and claim ‘exemptions’ under the FOIA rules… but you are still supposed to deliver ‘essentially identical’ copies of the material you have in your possession.
Removing MOST of the original EXIF data is still a no-no, legally speaking.
WARNING: I think WordPress is starting to go ‘brain dead’ again because of too many messages. My response to ‘Method’ above was supposed to be a new ‘parent’ comment and it has appeared here as a ‘Reply’ instead.
One of mike’s comments also just got ‘orphaned’ as well and somehow is only appearing at the very BOTTOM of this Chapter.
Time for Chapter TEN?
I actually think the release of the new footage ( and our current discussion of it ) would be a good ‘logical place’ to start a new chapter.
WTKTT—-For your info……….
The FS has some Highly qualified Information officers I use to work wit one he had quite a office where he could edit and work with all kinds of video arranging it into news releases or Forest information disks for release on many different
Forest projects.
So I am saying The FS has some very sophisticated equipment on many forests or in Regional offices that could edit an original or copy of an original Video
Mainly just for a heads up to you and Marti.
What we are seeing is an edited version of the original with what was selected to release I would bet on it. It was not as well done as it could have been and you are finding the flaws.
Keep digging the answer is there…………
Mr. Powers… thank you.
That is why it will be IMPOSSIBLE for the US Forestry service to claim that anything that happened here was any kind of ‘amateur hour’ mistake.
That is also why I took the time below to tell you that ‘story’ about how whoever did the ‘pixelation’ BLUR-OUT on the face of the driver of the white pickup was obviously VERY GOOD at that sort of thing.
If you trace that blur-out operation frame-by-frame… it’s obvious it was no slouch tasked with doing that. He/She makes NONE of the mistakes that most people would when attempting that sort of thing.
So they knew EXACTLY what they were doing.
There is no doubt about that.
WHY they were doing it ( and not completely fulfilling a valid, legal FOIA request )… is what remains to be discovered.
One thing to remember they are not the FBI or CIA
they are not proficient at this so they may well screw up don’t expect Einstein here.
Keep working at it.
Exactly.
Speaking of Non-Einstein matters…
If you read the letter that John Dougherty received from Tom Harbour ( Head of Fire Aviation as USFS and close co-worker of SAIT Co-Leader Mike Dudley ) regarding the CONTENTS of the FOIA package… Mr. Harbour states unequivocably that ONLY 4 of the 21 videos they are ‘delivering’ in fulfillment of the FOIA request have been ‘redacted’ in any way.
Mr. Harbour of USFS also gives valid explanations for the ‘redactions’ and exactly where they are in the videos that have an ‘R’ added to the filenames.
Okay. Fine. Whatever.
What that actually MEANS, then, is that there is absolutely no reason why the OTHER 18 videos should not be absolute byte-for-byte copies of Aaron Hulburd’s ORIGINALS, complete with all original EXIF metadata.
They aren’t.
It is all well and good that Tom Harbour and the USFS wanted to ‘get out ahead of the story’ and make arrangements with Arizona Forestry for THEM to host a web page containing ‘copies’ of these videos…
…but providing the same videos that have been simply prepared for uploading to YouTube is NOT the same as legally fulfilling a valid FOIA request.
So according to Tom Harbour himself… EIGHTEEN of the videos that should have been delivered to InvestigativeMEDIA should have been absolute byte-for-byte copies of what they originally received.
If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they not already provided?
WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming they made ANY redactions whatsoever on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of evidence… then WHERE are the byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them and WHY were they not already provided?”
They WERE already provided.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 16, 2014 at 1:20 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> WTKTT asked: “If they are NOT claiming
>> they made ANY redactions whatsoever
>> on these 18 other ‘original’ pieces of
>> evidence… then WHERE are the
>> byte-for-byte ‘original copies’ of them
>> and WHY were they not already provided?”
>>
>> They WERE already provided.
To who?
The material sitting on YouTube is by no means byte-for-byte copies of the originals.
If they were… we would be seeing all the original EXIF metadata in the files.
We are NOT.
Mr. Dougherty has indicated that the material he has received on a DVD that is also supposed to be a valid (legal) fulfillment of his original FOIA request is nothing more than the same YouTube videos linked to on the Arizona Forestry website prior to the fulfillment of his request.
I would HOPE they actually sent Mr. Dougherty valid, legal, byte-for-byte copies of the material they have in their possession ( as they are supposed to )… but it doesn’t sound like that happened.
For anyone following this particluar thread… see above for continuation of this specific exchange.
The poster known as ‘Elizabeth’ came right back and said these ‘byte-for-byte original copies’ of the material USFS has in there possession were provided to HER.
We have give her the chance to prove what she said by simply telling us what some of the original EXIF data is from the files… or what FORMAT the original Hulburd video was in… but she refuses to even do those simple things.
It is most likely she is simply just LYING… but if she is NOT… then she has just given de-facto public testimony that the United States Forestry Service is violating Federal Law by ‘picking and choosing’ what to deliver in response to valid, legal FOIA requests depending on WHO the requestor is.
Stay tuned. More about this to come, I’m sure.
If the USFS really is violating Federal Law… I’m sure the mainstream media will be all over it.
Hope this goes where it’s supposed to.
I don’t know if you saw below where I asked if Aaron was even zooming.
So I quickly went back and looked at the first of the M2U’s (I’m totally unfamiliar with this format, and had never even heard of it til now).
He is, indeed, zooming in and out. That means there has to be a button or something (which kind of defeats the purpose of “Look Mom No Hands.”)
And it also means, I think, it’s something different from what police use for their hear/body cams.
The other thing that struck me while watching that video is the extremely high “resolution” of it, even though I was even only watching it in 360p. Usually I have to bump a youtube video up as high as I possibly can to get decent resolution, unless it’s shot with a really good camera.
I’ve watched lots of Ferguson livestreaming, and they use the best and the newest iphones, and their video isn’t as good as that one of Aaron’s.
It reminds me of when my daughter was doing her college junior year in France in 2007/2008 and she was photographing it all with her little 2-year old Nikon Coolpix and putting it all up on Facebook so I could show the pix to my dying father.
When I finally got the cd’s of the photos I was blown away. She was shooting at 3 megapixels (to save laptop hard-drive space) and the images were amazing! I’ve made 13×19 prints of them for her to sell, and the detail is stunning. Even her night photos.
I’m sure it was the lens.
So there’s that.
Also. I haven’t downloaded any of these videos. I decided to wait until JD put them in his dropbox. So I don’t know what the files look like.
You said:
“One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA.”
So are you seeing something that says “Original Image Size” in the metadata?
Or are you going by the fact that the video you downloaded from YouTube is 854×480?
Hmm just googled 480p and it is usually 720×480 so I guess that does look like 854×480 is unique.
This stuff is really new territory for me.
Now I not only need to agonize over what kind of smartphone to get, but what kind of head/whatever cam to get.
Personally, I want a gopro and a drone for Christmas.
Marti… as I told Mr. Powers in a comment above… the thing to really focus on here is WHY USFS has NOT provided ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of at least the 18 video clips they claim have NOT been ‘redacted’ in any way.
That letter Mr. John Dougherty got explaining what was GOING to be sent in fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s FOIA request was signed by Mr. Tom Harbour.
Tom Harbour is the de-facto HEAD of Fire Aviation at the United States Forestry Service. He and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley have worked together for almost a decade now… and many of Mr. Tom Harbours USFS memos and documents are actually co-signed by Mike Dudley ( but not the letter sent to John Dougherty ).
Mr. Harbour states in no uncertain terms that only FOUR of the 21 videos have had ‘redactions’ applied. He does, in fact, say that these files have an ‘R’ added to the filenames and ( in the letter ) he DOES give valid reasons why the redactions were being applied to these FOUR videos.
Fine. Whatever.
That leaves EIGHTEEN video files that should be absolute byte-for-byte copies of the originals… complete with ALL original EXIF metadata.
Preparing files for a YouTube channel and then releasing THOSE files in response to an FOIA request is NOT a valid, legal response to that FOIA request.
I really think this has to be pursued.
If Mr. Harbour is telling the truth… then there is NO REASON why 18 of those 21 videos should not be byte-for-byte copies of Hulburd’s originals.
I think we WILL find out exactly what kind of camera Aaron Hulburd was using that day… but that still won’t produce byte-for-byte copies of his originals.
Someone is going to have to ‘challenge’ what was released and take the stance that the FOIA request has NOT been legally fulfilled ( yet ).
Exactly.
Anybody want to lay bets on whether it will be JD or AZCentral who does it first?
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 15, 2014 at 5:37 pm
>> Elizabeth wrote
>>
>> Phrased differently, in order to “redact” or blur things out, the USDA had
>> to save those videos – and only those videos (with the “R” in the name) –
>> in a DIFFERENT format (which then allows you to view them
>> differently, as you observed).
They most certainly did not HAVE to do that… just because they were adding even legitimate ‘redactions’ like blurring out a citizen’s face, blocking a phone number in the audio, or ‘blacking out’ images of the deployment site.
They CHOSE to do it.
USFS has CHOSEN to release copies of the videos that are NOT ‘original copies’ with all the EXIF metadata still present in the files.
This is actually a violation of the rules of FOIA… and no one should consider their original FOIA requestes to have been properly ( and legally ) fulfilled yet.
Also… I covered all this yesterday. You must have missed it.
See above ( or below ).
WTKTT said: “Also… I covered all this yesterday. You must have missed it.”
You must have missed Mart’s post – I was responding to a post that Marti made in which she quoted “Methods” as seeming confused about why the “R” videos were different. Because I have some of the metadata, I could clarify… so I did. 🙂
I think you missed the point.
I want to pull this discussion up to the top again, because it’s way down in the stream.
Methods says
NOVEMBER 15, 2014 AT 11:48 AM
”
From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom. These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle lenses on them. I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p. My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has all ready been discussed.”
Thanks! It makes sense to me now (DOH) that a helmet cam would not zoom. “Look ma, no hands!”
WTKTT wrote somewhere in this jumble of threads that he thought maybe the originals were a smaller format and the Rs were a larger format.
That, actually, didn’t quite make sense to me, except for that’s what “the evidence” shows in the metadata.
I know so little about video-editing or these kinds of cameras that I have no clue.
I’m actually really posting this here so WTKTT sees it so he can weigh in on what you are saying.
BTW I came across a youtube video that’s kind of an ad for two types of police headcams. It was interesting.
Here it is:
“Police Body Cams: Comparing the Vievu LE3 and Taser’s Axon”
http://youtu.be/q_3BV8YdQs4?list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1
I have to say, all things considered, a police body-camera with the name Taser is not the best PR, IMHO.
But I found it interesting, given what WTKTT was realizing about how he didn’t think Aaron’s camera was a head/helmet cam, after all.
So these cameras wouldn’t zoom either.
Now that I’m thinking about it, are we sure Aaron was even zooming his lens? I can’t imagine, how you could do that. The whole point is “Look Ma, No Hands!”
Thanks for your help!
Marti… we must have pressed ‘transmit’ at the same time.
I was answering Method’s latest post as well and that information I was giving to Mr. Powers is reproduced up above.
Brilliant minds think………..similarly.
Unless they really really disagree.
Allow me to clarify two things for some of you:
1. Video M2U00264 cannot provide evidence of what the winds were doing at 4:22 p.m. because video M2U00264 was not recorded until AFTER 4:27.29 p.m. on June 30, 2013. (While I do not have my notes and the video metadata in front of me, I know at the very least that the M2U00264 video started AFTER the Yarnell Gamble video ended, which, off the top of my head, ended somewhere around 4:27.29-ish p.m.)
2. In the same video (M2U00264) that Marti cites as showing evidence of 30 or 40 or 45 mph winds from an alleged outflow boundary bringing winds from the N/NE, we hear Paul Musser – who most stellar WFFs in R-3 seem to view highly and who was actually supposed to be the IC for the YHF on the 30th (and who was also the highly-respected Supt. of Flagstaff Hotshots for many years, training some of the best WFFs of the current generation (according to those who know about such things), much, by the way, like Marty Rose, who also is viewed as being one of the best WFF trainers in R-3 at the time) – mentioning that his smartphone advises that the winds in Skull Valley are 40 mph. What Paul does NOT say at the end of his comment is “ALSO” or “TOO.” Paul makes his comment about the winds in Skull Valley in a way that suggests he is NOT feeling the same level of winds right there in the Shrine area. If you disagree, I’d be curious to know what you are hearing in Paul’s comments to suggest that I am misunderstanding Paul’s sentiment.
🙂
Okay… what the heck… just for entertainment’s sake… I’ll bite.
1) What is the significance of 4:22 PM to the extent that you are ‘hanging your hat’ on it?
If you are ( for some reason ) trying to get as close to 4:22 as possible… then please have a look at the actual YARNELL-GAMBLE video above again… and look closely at the TREES.
They are all blowing just as hard ( if not harder ) than the ones in Marti’s example video of what trees like that look like in 30 mph winds. Also please watch the ABC15 ‘Air15’ Helicopter footage again. They were over the fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM. Pay close attention to what is happening on the GROUND in this Helicopter footage.
2) Just because Paul Musser does NOT add a single word to the end of his report about what is happening in Skull Valley… you are assuming no similar winds were blowing in Yarnell?
Seriously?
In the video in question… you don’t have to look to Paul Musser’s use of the King’s English to wonder if the wind was blowing in Yarnell. Just WATCH THE VIDEO ( and the ones that accompany it ).
Your argument is like saying if you are watching of a video of someone standing in the rain but they don’t SAY it’s actually raining where they are… then it must not be and the video is some kind of ‘illusion’.
And…….. yes.
“Is it……raining???” says one firefighter with a mystified voice.
“Yes, I think it IS!!” answered another, with an equally mystified voice.
And our counselor says,
“That CAN’T be true, I don’t see the rain falling in the video!”
“Is it NIGHT???” says one firefighter, in a mystified voice, as a massive amount of smoke and embers shrouds him, making him cough heavily.
Our counselor schools him, with a determined and patient “voice.” “Of course it’s not night! Let me explain. Listen up, and tell me if you think I’m making it a mistake. It’s only 4:31 in the afternoon. And are you, by any chance Fred? Because you are making a really dumb mistake!”
“And because you look like all those other Freds standing around you.”
And our counselor replies to Marti Reed:
“And, Marti, please review the video. The one asking “Is it NIGHT???” is not the same firefighter who is coughing. You really need to get your facts straight”
To which Marti Reed replies:
“I think you’re missing the point.”
Of course this whole potentially disastrous and unfit for general consumption (much less those poor FAMILIES) mix-up in communications is directly caused by WantsToKnowTheTruth who, at exactly 10:05 PM on NOVEMBER 15, 2014, who in TRUTH wrote:
“Okay… what the heck… just for entertainment’s sake… I’ll bite.”
And, of course everybody that’s anybody in Region 3 knows WTKTT is actually Fred, along with RTS, TTWARE, SR, FF+20, and now, due to my extensive research, we also know Mike is also.
And they all know Fred is a trouble-maker.
And that High Priestess of the Weather Wizards, hmmmmm, I’m now beginning to suspect she’s Fred, too…..
I know this because I live in Region 3, AND I have a telephone!
I rest my case.
OK.
I get what you are saying about 4:22 (when Tyson’s log says winds from the west at 45mph), vs the winds in the video, which appear to me to be, basically 30-ish mph. Not 45, at that point.
We’re talking a plus/minus 5 minute difference.
I think that is realistic because of the topography.
Indeed the two videos Aaron took before 264 don’t show anywhere near as much wind, as far as I can see.
So we are looking at a wind that hit the Shrine area a teensy bit later (5-ish minutes) than it hit the Youth Camp.
That is totally not unusual, given the topography.
The Youth Camp is located in an area in which an east/west drainage (where the dozer line was put in connecting to Sesame) meets another drainage coming down from the north, and also meets another low area wrapping around the boulder hill to the north of where the crew was cutting brush to help create the line they were all thinking of burning out that night.
The area near the Shrine, where Aaron was filming, is further south, in a north/south drainage area, surrounded by trees on both sides. More protected.
The way wind works, it’s not programmable, or even. It’s partly seriously dictated by topography, regardless of what system, overall, is creating. It’s very dynamic.
Living in Albuquerque, where we often get these thunderstorms with powerful outflow boundaries, the air can be totally calm and then suddenly be blowing 60 mph and uprooting trees. It can be really freaky.
So it’s completely understandable that a wind event would hit the Youth Camp in such a way that Tyson would estimate it at 4:22 PM at 45 mph (probably partially based on possible earlier micro weather observations), and then hit the more southern and protected area five minutes (-ish) later at about 30 mph.
You seem to be concerned about the wind(s) being indraft (via the fire) vs outflow (via the thunderstorm). And thus you keep saying “alleged outflow.”
Quite frankly, I think we are looking at a chaotic combination of the two. The thunderstorm pushing down from the northeast would have, on a seriously oversimplified model, most likely have pushed outflow winds GENERALLY from the northeast to the southwest at this location. Which they did, causing the fire to stand up and then turn around and push the entire fire, ultimately towards the southwest, killing Granite Mountain and burning down Glen Ilah.
But this is not oversimplified on the ground, with a fire rotating clockwise, sucking those winds back up into it over complex topography. Which is, I think, the point you are trying to make. That’s also why, I think, Tyson recorded the winds as being from the west.
I’ve been wondering myself, it that storm was pushing outflow winds, essentially, to the southwest, which I think it was, why is Tyson recording them out of the west, and, although it’s really hard to tell, that seems to be what is happening in the video.
Basically, I think the whole thing we are seeing is a really complex extreme wind/fire event that’s also being shaped by the topography. It’s not an either/or.
It’s extreme fire behavior coupled with a thunderstorm coupled with topography.
OK, dad, I hope I got that right.
Marti the Weather Girl
A Fire Weather Schooling on Local factors and the influence of Thunderstorms.
Calm to extreme winds from many directions.
“Is it raining????” said one firefighter.
“Yes, I think it is!!!” said another.
**
** MORE ABOUT THE FIRST THREE ( NEWLY RELEASED ) VIDEOS
Here is some more information about the first THREE videos that were part of the 21 just released by the US Forestry Service.
It still seems they are NOT actually from Aaron Hulburd’s specific ‘Helmet Camera’ ( or whatever kind of camera he was actually using that afternoon to shoot all those other M2U00xxx videos )… but it DOES appear they WERE taken by Aaron Hulburd with the other two of the ‘Prescott Three’. ( Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).right there next to him ( in their UTVs ).
Here is why.
In other photos and videos from the fire… we can definitely see ( and have verified ) that the VEHICLES that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were driving were all ‘staged’ there on the side of the road just a few hundred yards south of the Incident Command Post there at the Model Creek School in Peeples Valley…
…but they are not IN the vehicles and the two UTVs are GONE from the trailers attached to Clawson and Yowell’s pickup trucks.
So they were out ‘bombing around’ on the fire somewhere when those other photos and videos captured their vehicles ‘staged’ there by the ICP.
As it turns out… this ‘burnout operation’ represented in the new ‘first three’ videos is where they actually seemed to have gone in their UTVs.
At exactly +27 seconds in the SECOND of these first three videos ( Video 0630131533 ), The ‘roll-cage’ and back storage section of a UTV suddenly slips into view in the very bottom left corner of the video.
Only KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV ( with the red hood and fenders ) had a roll-cage.
Jason Clawson’s UTV had no such roll-cage ( at least not on that day ).
So whoever is shooting this video ( 0630131533 ) of that in-progress burnout operation up there on Model Creek Road was standing in the middle of the road… but also standing NEXT to this UTV with the roll-cage that we can now see was right there next to him.
At the very end of this video… you can even see the Nomex-shirt ( elbow? ) of whoever was standing to the cameraman’s LEFT briefly come into view. So that is proof that there was at least one other person ( with a Nomex shirt on ) standing to the LEFT of whoever was filming this particular video.
In the NEXT video with filename 0630131534 ( the THIRD of these first 3 videos in the new release )… the camera is now MOVING BACKWARDS as it films the men conducting more of the burnout operation.
The camera perspective is now from the RIGHT-CENTER of the road, and not from DEAD-CENTER in the road like the other two videos that precede this one.
At exactly +13 seconds into this THIRD video ( 0630131534 )… we again suddenly see part of the same UTV seen in the previous video to the LEFT of the camera… and it, too, is now ‘creeping forward’ on the road.
However… THIS time… we actually do see the RED FENDERS of the UTV which means it was most probably KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s UTV. I haven’t actually seen ANY other UTVs on the fire that day that had a RED hood and RED fenders like Yowell’s did.
Some of the GEAR that is in the back of this RED-fendered UTV also matches what can be seen later on in other views of Yowell’s UTV over on Shrine Road in the M2U00xxx video series.
But there is more.
At the very END of this video… just for a moment… we seem to ALSO see the fender of Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV come into view in about the mid-left-center-bottom of the video as the ‘movement’ of the camera actually also seems to ‘pick up speed’ a little.
Seems to be proof that BOTH of the ‘Prescott Three’ UTVs were actually right there up on Model Creek Road… with Jason Clawson actively driving his and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell actively driving his… so that only leaves Aaron Hulburd with ‘hands free’ to be the one filming the burnout.
So here is what I think all this proves…
1) After Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell unloaded their UTVs from their trailers up there where they were parked near the ICP… all 3 of ‘The Prescott Three’ headed up to the Model Creek Road area in the TWO UTVs.
2) Once there… Aaron Hulburd exited KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s RED-fendered UTV and was then standing in the middle of the dirt road and began filming this ‘burnout’ operation coming TOWARDS them.
3) In the SECOND video… Yowell and his RED-fendered UTV ( with roll-cage ) was to Hulburd’s LEFT while he was filming down the road, and Jason Clawson’s all-olive-drab UTV ( with no roll cage ) was actually there to Hulburd’s RIGHT, but never comes into view in this video.
4) In the THIRD video… Hulburd has now SAT on the BACK of Jason Clawson’s UTV, and he is still filming the ‘burnout’ operation coming towards them… but now BOTH Yowell and Clawson are driving BOTH UTV’s slowly forward, side-by-side, in order to stay ahead of the approaching burnout operation. At the end of the video… Jason Clawson picks up speed a little and that is why we suddenly see the RED fender of Yowell’s UTV come into view for a moment. Clawson got a little ‘ahead’ of Yowell who was also creeping forward in his UTV on the LEFT side of the video and that’s when we see Yowell’s RED fender appear there.
This still doesn’t FULLY explain why these videos do NOT match the resolution of Aaron Hulburd’s other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos… or why these videos use a DATE/TIME stamp for a filename and the others ones use the M2U00xxx filename convention… but I think we can take a pretty darn good guess at that, now.
Aaron Hulburd had some OTHER device with him capable of shooting movies and THAT is what he was using to shoot these FIRST three videos that we can now see.
It also makes sense that it would be Aaron Hulburd filming this ‘burnout’ operation up there on Model Creek Road. He is a career ‘Fuels Specialist’ for the Prescott National Forest… and this ‘burnout’ is exactly the sort of thing he would be interested in recording on film. Yowell and Clawson were just driving the two UTVs at that point.
I do believe we ARE looking at least TWO different ‘devices’ used to shoot the video that has appeared in the latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS… but they BOTH probably belonged to Aaron Hulburd.
So that begs a new question which is similar to the one that has finally ‘shaken loose’ these other ‘Helmet Cam’ videos.
Whatever OTHER ‘video/audio’ capable device Hulburd might have been using to shoot these ‘burnout operation’ videos… was that REALLY the ONLY time he shot any videos or captured any radio transmissions that day with THAT ‘other’ device?
That is what the new USFS release would have us believe… the same way they wanted us to believe that the original ‘Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY footage was the ONLY time Hulburd used his Helmet-Cam that day, as well.
I do NOT trust the US Forestry Service ( or Arizona Forestry ).
There could still be MORE videos just from that ‘other’ device Hulburd appears to have been using that day to shoot the burnout operation on Model Creek Road.
As I originally said that it was NOT CREDIBLE that the original MAYDAY footage could have been the ONLY time a true-blue videophile like Aaron Hulburd would have actually USED his Helmet Camera that day ( and it turns out my instincts were correct )… I also do NOT believe that if Hulburd had another video/audio capable device with him that day that he would have ONLY used it that ONE time there on Model Creek Road.
** A WORD ABOUT THE ORIGINAL FOIA REQUEST AND WHAT ENDED UP ‘RELEASED’…
When ‘InvestigativeMEDIA’ issued that FOIA request directly to the Prescott National Forest it was specifically asking for ‘Helmet Camera Video’ that was taken by any PNF employee who had worked the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Prescott National Forest obviously then had an ‘Oh Shit’ moment… and they immediately FORWARDED this valid FOIA request on to their ‘parent company’, the US Forestry Service.
In the letter that InvestigativeMEDIA got back from the USFS that was basically just ‘acknowledging’ the receipt of the FOIA request originally directed to Prescott National Forest… something got ‘mixed up’ as per what the actual REQUEST was.
Here is exactly what the ‘letter of receipt’ from USFS said…
—————————————————————————–
Dear Mr. Dougherty:
This letter acknowledges receipt of your Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request dated October 20, 2014, which was received in the Washington Office (WO) FOIA Service Center, Office of Regulatory and Management Services on October 21, 2014.
You requested access to the complete, unedited video taken by Prescott National Forest firefighters on June 30, 2013 during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
(snip)
Sincerely,
/s/ Jeffrey Jasper for
GEORGE VARGAS
Freedom of Information Act/Privacy Act Officer
( US Forestry Service Logo appears here )
—————————————————————————–
Notice that the letter of receipt no longer specifically says that the FOIA request is for ‘Helmet Camera’ video ( only ).
So that is why those first THREE videos were probably included in this specific response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request for ‘Helmet Camera Video’.
When it hit the USFS… the ‘Helmet Camera’ specific part of the request had gotten ‘lost in the translation’ so now the request ‘morphed’ into one that was requesting ALL video(s) that might have been shot by a PNF employee on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
So that’s why the other three ‘Non-Helmet-Camera’ videos also got ‘popped out of the darkness’ here and added to the beginning of the list of videos.
Whether or not this really is ALL of the ‘video shot by any PNF employee who was at the Yarnell fire’ still remains to be seen… but I think this proves WHY those other three Non-Helmet Camera videos probably ended up included in THIS release. They weren’t specifically what you could call ‘Helmet Camera’ videos… but they WERE videos taken by a PNF employee ( Hulburd ) in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
** A WORD ABOUT THESE FILENAMES
I am feeling the need to mention something about the filenames for these first three videos in the 21 just released by USFS.
The filenames for these first 3 videos ( as released ) are…
0630131532
0630131533
0630131534
It is pretty much ‘normal’ for a lot of video/audio capable devices to use this
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE style format for auto-naming the files
being saved to the memory card.
That in no way really tells us exactly what KIND of device was being used.
However… something is still a little odd.
If any device is using this kind of DATE + TIME format for actually naming files…
it is bascially IMPOSSIBLE for it to really only have been…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE
It pretty much HAD to have been at least…
MONTH + DAY + YEAR + HOUR + MINUTE + SECOND.
Here is why.
You can’t possible expect a file naming scheme for a photo/video capable device to work when it can’t stamp the filenames down to at least the SECOND.
Anyone could take multiple photos/videos within a one minute timeframe and you also cannot possibly ever have TWO filenames on a memory card ( or even a hard drive ) with the EXACT same filename(s).
So if that device really was never using the SECONDS value for the filename stamping… it would have also have had to have been able to distinguish files all taken within the same minute with some kind of NAMING convention like this…
0630131532
0630131532(1)
0630131532(2)
0630131532(3)
Etc…
EACH of these first THREE files in this latest USFS evidence dump are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds long ( to within a few hundreths of a second ), and that is still not possible to achieve with the human hand working a shutter button… but I also still have no good explanation for that.
We would need to know more about the actual device in use to know more about that and whether it indicates any kind of ‘tampering’ with the original videos.
But… I still get the feeling that we are not seeing the ACTUAL (original) filenames for these first 3 videos in the recent ‘evidence dump’.
Each video is 29.8 ( Call it 30 ) seconds long… but the timestamps are all on consecutive MINUTE values ( 1532, 1533, 1534 ).
In order to believe these filenames are all exactly the way they originally were on the device’s memory card… that means we also have to believe that Aaron Hulburd ( or whoever took them ) also PAUSED for ( at least ) 30 seconds in-between each video filmed, and never tried to shoot anything that had the same MINUTE value for a start time.
I guess that’s possible… but regardless… something still tells me we are still not seeing the SECONDS value of the original filenames… which means these filenames themselves have been (essentiallly) ‘altered from the originals’.
That would be even more reason to question whether this latest ‘evidence dump’ from USFS really represents the original material they have in their possession… and whether it is, in fact, a full legal fulfillment of a valid FOIA request.
** MORE ABOUT THE UTVS
The rest of this is just for completeness sake and shows how we CAN know what KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s and Jason Clawson’s UTVs really looked like.
The new M2U00xxx videos also finally give us better looks at the UTVs that belonged to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Jason Clawson that day… which has made it easier to identify them as the same ones that can seen for a few frames in the other 0630131532, 33 and 34 videos.
The M2U00267 video is 2 minutes and 18 seconds long.
At +1:36, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell turn around and start walking backing EAST to where their 2 UTV’s are parked back in the actual St. Joseph Shrine parking log.
The rest of the video is just them walking all the way back to where theri UTV’s are parked and the closer they get… the better you can see the 2 (parked) UTV’s.
The one on the LEFT belongs to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and is the one with the RED hood and fenders on it. It has BOTH a roll-cage and a windshield frame on it. It is also the one with two front seats and the one that Aaron Hulburd also travels when they all move around.
The UTV on the RIGHT is Jason Clawson’s. It appears to be pretty much the same make/model as Yowell’s with identical front grill and headlights, but it does NOT have either a roll-cage or a windshield frame installed ( at least not on that day ). It is all olive-drab. It also appears to have some ‘gear’ in the front which would make it hard for two people to travel in it… so that is probably why Aaron Hulburd was always traveling in the other UTV with Yowell whenever they were ‘moving around’ in these UTVs that day.
At about +2:09 or +2:11 ( in video M2U00267 ) is the best closeup view of BOTH of these UTVs sitting side-by-side.
When they reach the 2 UTV’s… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell moves towards the one on the left ( with the red fenders ) to get into the driver’s seat.Aarron Hulburd ( still filming ) is right behind Yowell and gets very close to him at this point and this is when you can clearly see that Hulburd’s camera has NOT been mounted on his Helmet for this video.
The camera lens is actually at about the same height as Yowell’s right elbow… which means it was probably clipped to Hulburd’s front shirt pocket while he was filming this M2U00267 video.
So whatever Aaron Hulburd was using to shoot these M2U00xxx videos that have come to be known as the ‘Helmet Cam’ videos probably wasn’t an actual brand-name Helmet Camera at all.
It is more likely it is just a device that is easily CLIPPED to things like a Helmet Bracket, or a short pocket, or whatever.
It it still important to know exactly WHAT device that was… what KIND of EXIF metadata SHOULD have been present in the video files themselves… and why NONE of that metadata has been included in what was supposed to be a valid fulfillment of a fully legal FOIA request.
Wow… I think WordPress really is starting to go brain-dead again.
That ENTIRE comment up above with new information about the first 3 newly released videos was NOT supposed to appear where it did.
It was submitted as a new ‘parent comment’ and just somehow showed up here as well.
See above for the ‘parent comment’ version of this same posting with better formatting.
That’s why I’m no longer posting anything of substance here until the new chapter comes up.
I’m glad I got to go to an awesome dance performance before writing that.
And, I think what was happening over the west edge of the fire, as Granite Mountain was hiking down into their doom in that bowl full of explosive fuels, was even more complicated than what was happening over Shrine Road and the Youth Camp.
And was all this complicated fire/weather/topography PREDICTABLE?
IMHO a resounding YES and NO!!
There you have it from the High Priestess of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta Weather Wizards.
Marti… see below.
The atmospheric scientists at the University of Arizona were actually ‘up early’ on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013 and doing what they do.
Running computer models.
One of them predicted EXACTLY what was going to happen… right to within the HOUR of when it actually came to pass.
NONE of those ‘computer models’ ever made it through proper channels ( that day ) to the people who really needed to know about it… such as Arizona Forestry Dispatch.
So, did I get it right?
Yes I did!
Thanks dad!
Somebody needs to actually really investigate this fire.
Well… from a meteorological viewpoint… people HAVE.( and given its HISTORIC nature… will continue to do so ).
The following is just ONE ( excellent ) professional report on what really happened that day. I’ve never seen so many detailed images, maps, charts and explanations about what happened that day all in one place…
http://cliffmass.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-yarnell-hill-fire-meteorological.html
From the article…
————————————————————-
The Yarnell Hill Fire: The Meteorological Origins
This morning I took a look at the meteorology associated with the Yarnell Hill fire in Arizona on Sunday, and the more I dug into it, the more disturbed I got. You will see why as I explain.
From what I can glean from news reports, the fire blew up around 4-5 PM Sunday (June 30th). A nearby observation site (RAWS station) was located about 5 miles away. The observations, shown below, indicates a profound wind shift from south to north around 5 PM associated with a sudden increase of wind gusts to just over 40 mph. Solar radiation dropped rapidly at the same time, indicating a sudden increase in cloudiness.
The origin of this sudden increase in wind is clear: outflow from a line of convection (thunderstorms) that had developed during the preceding hours and which was moving to the southwest. Here are some satellite images for the hours preceding and during the terrible accident (the circle indicates the location of the fire).
( Series of Satellite images… all explained in detail ).
( snip )
There is often an outflow of cooler air moving away from convection…the leading edge is known as a gust front (see figure). Downdraft air from thunderstorms spread out as it hits the surface, producing strong winds. It appears that there was such strong outflow from this convection that caused the winds to shift rapidly from southerly to northerly and to increase suddenly in speed (to 43 mph at the nearby station).
A measure of the potential for strong downdrafts and gust fronts is something called downdraft convective available potential energy (DCAPE). The sounding at Flagstaff has values of around 1600 J per Kg, which is very high (anything above 1000 can produce strong downdrafts).
(snip)
So it is apparent what occurred ..first the winds were from the south, followed by a rapid shift of 180 degrees, sudden increase of winds to over 40 mph, and the fire blew up and reversed direction.
(snip)
You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling. Hours before the incident it was clear there was a real threat…satellite and radar showed developing convection to the north that was moving south towards the fire. High-resolution numerical models showed a threat. Were there any meteorologists working the fire? If not, why not? This terrible tragedy needs to be reviewed carefully.
A number of media outlets called the strong winds unpredictable and random. This is not correct, as shown by the information I provided above.
————————————————————-
Followup…
The really SAD part, as well… is that not only do post-fire examinations of the conditions prove that everything that happened was perfectly predictable that day…
…it was all also perfectly predicted THAT MORNING… by meteorologists at the Universty of Arizona who were ‘up early’ that morning and doing what they do… running computer models.
The computer models ( that morning ) got it ‘right’ to within one hour of what actually ended up happening.
Sadly… this information never made it out to Arizona Forestry that day.
The USATODAY news article where this was first reported…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/02/yarnell-hill-fire-investigation/2483571/
From the article…
———————————————————-
The weather combined with fuel loads to create a deadly combination.
Meteorologists at the University of Arizona in Tucson ran models the morning of the fire predicting to within an hour the terrifying conditions the hotshots would confront.
“One model showed 45-knot (52 mph) winds and rapidly changing wind direction. It is a worst-case scenario for firefighting. They were the most dangerous conditions you could have in Arizona,” said research meteorologist Mike Leuthold at the university’s Institute of Atmospheric Physics.
In the real world, winds from the southwest were gusting at 15 to 25 mph at 4:01 p.m. PST Sunday at the monitoring station near the blaze. An hour later, winds were gusting at 30 to 47 mph from the northeast.
The worst was coming. During the monsoon — a meteorological event that happens during the summer throughout the Southwest — the searing desert temperatures force columns of hot air high into the atmosphere, Leuthold and National Weather Service meteorologists said.
The higher these plumes climb, the more chance they have for lifting embers and dispersing them widely. They also increase the chance of dry lightning strikes.
On Sunday, meteorologists measured the thermals as high as 22,000 feet, halfway through the atmosphere. The readings were among the highest they’d ever seen. In early fire reports, lightning was blamed for starting the Yarnell Hill Fire on Friday. And in Rim Country and near Prescott, the thunderstorms bring massive downdrafts of air — pushing huge gusts of air and reversing winds.
That’s exactly what happened Sunday.
Brian Klimowski, the National Weather Service’s meteorologist in chief in the Flagstaff division, said local topography could channel winds into even stronger gusts, making fire behavior more unpredictable.
The Weather Service provides twice-daily fire weather forecasts for each region. In large fires, the service also provides spot forecasts for specific fire locations upon request.
Firefighters did make forecast requests for the Yarnell Hill Fire, which Klimowski’s team updated twice a day, he said. In addition, the Weather Service also called firefighters twice Sunday afternoon warning about the likelihood of thunderstorms and high winds.
—————————————————————-
So it is known that ‘regular weather reports’ were being delivered… but somehow the actual ‘computer model’ that was done that morning was never fully passed on to the people who needed to know about it.
It was RIGHT ( to within the hour ) about EXACTLY what was going to happen.
“Meteorologists at the University of Arizona in Tucson ran models the morning of the fire predicting to within an hour the terrifying conditions the hotshots would confront.”
That’s really, really sad.
Hmm. I hadn’t seen THIS one. Thanks!
“Brian Klimowski, the National Weather Service’s meteorologist in chief in the Flagstaff division, said local topography could channel winds into even stronger gusts, making fire behavior more unpredictable.”
That’s what I meant by, Was it predictable? YES and NO.
You can predict, generally, what’s going to happen. They ran a NUMBER of models. That’s how you get the PROBABILITIES.
The topography shapes it on the ground, the localized micro-effects. That’s what you can’t predict from that kind of modeling.
You can’t predict that at 4:22 the wind would be blowing through the Youth Camp from the west at 45 mph.
You can’t predict that it would take five more minutes for the wind to be blowing through the tops of the trees at about 30 mph as Aaron filmed them from the Shrine.
You can’t predict exactly when the wind, as the fire is rotating through that topography, would turn the fire the additional 30 degrees or so that it took to blow the fire right up the bowl at the exact time it spared “main street” Yarnell (where it was headed about ten minutes before that, and hit Glen Ilah, instead.
You can’t predict when the fire, pushing right toward the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School, will turn just enough to spare the Post and start burning more eastward to threaten the homes on Sickles Road, so that you have to scramble a bunch of last-minute resources to get them down there in time to work with retardant drops.
But you CAN predict, after observing the fire and the general topography from the air, as Bravo 3 did at around noon, that, given the most-likely combination of monsoon weather plus topography, that combination would EASILY cause the fire to change direction, and start burning UPHILL, finally, towards Yarnell “that afternoon.”
Also, did you catch that little nugget about the NIMO? That’s the first I ever read about THAT.
“The investigative team will consist of up to 10 people recruited from around the country from local, state and federal agencies, she [Carrie Dennett AZF] said.
The group will include a team leader, a fire-behavioral analyst who can describe how a fire accelerates, a fire-operations specialist, a safety specialist and a person to document the information, said Judith Downing of the U.S. Forest Service. A report will be published when the work is finished.
Downing, who arrived Monday in Arizona with a seven-member National Incident Management Organization team to assist in the operation, said the investigation will be independent.
“Our role is not to do the investigation,” Downing said. “Our role is to provide support to the state.””
I wonder if “assisting” included sitting the BR Hotshots down in a room and having them fill out their unit logs and gathering up, while interviewing the Peeples Valley Crew, the cd with the photos and videos Brandon took,
Ahem. Nothing to see here!
And I would LOVE to be able to predict exactly what ADOSH is going to do next.
Actually, that’s the article from which I first got my understanding of what happened.
You wrote:
“You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling. Hours before the incident it was clear there was a real threat”
Heck, the photos of the “fire on the mountain” the night before “the incident”, which everybody in Yarnell was watching, made it clear there was “a real threat”!
Obviously Marti I would graduate you from Fire Weather 101
But you are qualified to teach it…
And yes all fore have a meteorologist assigned to the Fire
can’t remember his name from earlier but he sent the afternoon report predicting the increased activity no surprise on fire weather info some did not heed it.
Yes. That was Byron Kimball, the Fire Behavior Analyst.
They didn’t have a Fire Weather Meteorologist (I forget the technical IMT title).
Type 2 SHORT teams don’t include one of them.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
November 16, 2014 at 8:07 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling.
>> Hours before the incident it was clear there was
>> a real threat”
>>
>> Heck, the photos of the “fire on the mountain” the
>> night before “the incident”, which everybody in
>> Yarnell was watching, made it clear there
>> was “a real threat”!
And Darrell Willis’ own Unit Log entries between 1:30 AM and 3:30 AM prove that he was noting how ACTIVE the fire was… even at that hour of the morning.
In his 3:30 AM entry Willis also acknowledges first hearing that a ‘team’ was being put together and he was informed they would all be arriving in about 3 1/2 hours ( 7:00 AM )… but no one there in Yarnell overnight really seemed all that concerned about what TYPE of team it was… or whether it was going to be adequate… or whether this ‘highly active fire even in the middle of the night’ should have made any difference about the horsepower of the TEAM being ordered up for the next day.
Also… just for the record…
I think I messed up the reprint of that article up above.
The article is actually “quoted” all the way down to the dashed lines and not where I typed any (snip) markers.
I ( me, personally ) did NOT say…
“You can see why I find this disaster so unsettling.
Hours before the incident it was clear there was
a real threat”
That was actually still the professional meteorologist that was studying the fire talking there.
Even HE was astounded that more serious WARNINGS were not given out to the men who were in harm’s way that day.
Yes. Darrell was seriously concerned. Maybe that had to do with him keeping close touch with Jason, sensing the wrong decision had been made the night before, and knowing Bea’s team (which he was actually a part of) was having to come down to fill in all the holes they could.
Still bugz me, however, that, given that concern, he wasted all that time and resources defending what was, essentially an indefensible space.
That seems to me to be seriously non-strategic, all things considered.
And I have a hard time believing he didn’t hear that noon-ish B 3 communique to Rance that the fire was going to reverse itself that afternoon and head to Yarnell.
Especially since B 3 (and possibly also Air Attack Rory Collins before him) was communicating with him on Air To Ground regarding the retardant drops.
I think he most likely would have been, relatively speaking, prioritizing Air To Ground on his radio.
And also, that makes it make even more sense that the Three Prescotteers would have headed over to film what was essentially Darrell’s Firing Operation on Model Creek Road.
The 2:30 video was capturing radio coms related to Darrell’s operation at Double A Bar Ranch.
He was paying attention to what Darrell, a Bea Day Team OPS, was doing,
I bet Darrell was one of the very first people Jason got in touch with when he got to the fire.
I agree with everything you said here, but to me the emphasis is that none of this was that unusual, either. I experienced gusts of 50+ yesterday, for instance, and it doesn’t even make for good beer conversation because it’s part of life. And they changed direction from time to time. Storms roll off the rim there regularly that time of year. That storm rolled off almost exactly according to forecast, winds included. Extreme fire behavior is correct, but not extreme weather, unless one characterizes a normal, forecast storm that behaved as expected as extreme.
Exactly.
But see what I wrote above about what you CAN predict and what you CAN’T predict.
I have an old photo of my dad, sitting on a log in the Pecos Wilderness, where we were on horseback, staring at a thunderstorm developing over a ridge we had planned to cross to get back to our camp. He was trying to figure out whether we should stick to our plan, or go a different, lower, longer way. Which we did.
The next day, we rode over that ridge and found, right next to the trail, an exploded pine tree.
He told me that photo was of the moment, when he finally realized, after about 30 years of weather forecasting in the southwest, he couldn’t really predict the behavior of a thunderstorm in the southwest. It was all just too complicated.
That was also about thirty years after he flew planes in and out of typhoons in the Pacific in order to do the math in order to produce the calculations which are still used today to fly in and out of and around typhoons and hurricanes.
Actually, come to think of it, we used to have long irony-filled conversations about which was more unpredictable–weather behavior or people behavior.
We mostly agreed it was a draw.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 15, 2014 at 2:18 pm
NOTE: This has been brought up down below from a thread running out of room.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> And too bad we don’t have those disappeared photos and videos
>> from the Peeple’s Valley Crew. I’m sure they tell a wind story, too.
Yes. It’s unfortunate. That is still all VERY important evidence and no one seems to have any idea WHO actually ‘collected’ it all and WHERE it all ever ‘disappeared’ to.
However… the evidence we CAN still ‘see’ from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who also almost lost their lives in Yarnell that day DOES, in fact… tell a ‘wind story’ of its own.
From the ‘Yarnell Hill Recovery Group’ page – ‘Our Stories’ section…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/our_stories.html
Peeples Valley Firefighter Bob Brandon ( in his own words, and not
filtered through any reporter or media outlet )…
——————————————————————————————
I had an alarm that we had set up. I was going to turn the siren on and start pressing the siren so they could hear us, and that meant to abandon and come back and we’ll get out. Well, when I started the alarm, the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, “I want you to get these trucks out of here.”
I says, “I can’t do that.”
He said, “You have to do it now.”
And I said, “No. There’s six men still like a mile out into the forest and they need to come back to this safe zone, because this is where they know it is.”
And he said, “No. I’m telling you to leave now.”
I told my lookout, I said, “Go to their trucks and put the keys in the ignition and start the trucks so when they come running out of the woods and they get to their truck they don’t have to look for their keys.”
He said, “We’re not going to leave,” and I said, “Yeah, we’re going to leave but we’re going to drive very slow.”
Well he didn’t want to and I told him, “We have to. This is what we have to do.”
The next instant, the fire dropped right over the top of us like a gigantic hand and everything around us was on fire. It was pitch black. Matt could not even see the hood of the truck. You could see nothing. And there were fires and fireballs and flames in every direction.
And I said, “Start driving very slow.”
I turned on all my lights and started driving very slowly down this little path back to the Shrine. That was approximately 2 ½ miles. So we were just picking our way, really slow hoping that somebody would get to us or see the truck and get in.
Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.
We said, “We need to get our six men that are back there.” We didn’t have any radio contact with them because it was so loud. It was like being in the back of a jet aircraft on a runway.
So we were shouting at each other. About that time two Peeples Valley firefighters popped out through the black. And we got them over to the trucks and I said, “There’s still four more.”
So he jumped back up to his truck and went back up the road. And he was met with the ones coming out with their trucks. So we all did meet at the Shrine.
Our next point of deployment was to get to the Ranch House so we could make sure everybody’s safe. So we slowly drove our trucks to the Ranch House and met the congestion and confusion on Highway 89 with all the people being told to get out of town.
We were quite nervous at that. The winds were probably blowing between 40 and 50 mph, and we told them there’s not much for us to do. We made it to the Ranch House just when the fire came over the top of the highway by the Assembly of God Church and went up around the Ranch House.
So we started getting with the guys to fight the fire there. At that time, they were trying to set up a triage for anybody that got burned or suffered any trauma from this at the Ranch House, but the winds were just too great.
————————————————————————————–
Bob Brandan reports…
“The winds were blowing 40 and 50 mph”
“They were trying to set up triage… but the winds were just too great”.
** TONY SCIACCA WAS THE MYSTERIOUS ‘IC’ GIVING ORDERS TO BRANDON?
Also notice something interesting here.
We’ve never quite been able to identify who this mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ was who was telling Brandon to basically ‘abandon his own men’ and ‘get those trucks out of here now’.
We can NOW see… in the recently released Hulburd footage… that it is, indeed, ‘Big Dog’ Tony Sciacca standing right there ( in his white helmet ) alongside Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Brandon recalls TWO encounters with this person that he was (apparently) mis-identifying as an ‘Incident Commander’. Brandon may have simply misunderstood who that was because he might have had a ‘white helmet’ on… which he hadn’t seen so far that day in that Youth Camp location, so he was assuming he was some kind of ‘Incident Commander’ for Yarnell.
Brandon describes his FIRST encounter with this ‘Incident Commander’ person as
“…the Incident Commander for our area came pulling up, and he said, ‘I want you to get these trucks out of here.’ ”
Brandon then describes the SECOND encounter with this (same) ‘Incident Commander’ person…
“Well we drove all the way to the Shrine and about that time the Shrine was on fire. The hills were on fire around us and we met the IC and we told him that we’re not going any further.”
So now Brandon is saying they ‘met’ this (same) IC person again right there in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine after slowly driving the trucks out.
Well… according to the new Hulburd footage… that would be Tony Sciacca ( with his white helmet on ).
We can now SEE him ( Sciacca ) in the new Hulburd footage standing right there, exactly where Bob Brandon says he ‘met up’ with him in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
So… another mystery solved ( perhaps )?
The mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ person described by Bob Brandon as the one telling him to move the vehicles and, essentially, ABANDON his own men was, in fact, none other than ‘Big Dog’ Tony Sciacca himself?
Hmmm. Interesting catch.
I’m gonna have to leave soon, but quick thoughts.
I still have a REALLY hard time imagining Tony Sciacca doing that. He’s just not that kind of person or Incident Commander. Seriously. He let 15K extra acres burn on the Slide Fire (amidst a great public hue and cry about that) so he could keep the fire-fighters safe instead of having them fight the fire in the canyons.
And I don’t remember anything in his interview (off the top of my head) about going all the way up to the Youth Camp. He said he was, basically, trying to get all the crazy civilians to get out of Shrine Road.
And, quite frankly, to be perfectly honest, I’m not totally trusting Brandon’s account. There are like, what, five different accounts of this thing?
Which one is the correct one? Who knows??
This was a crew that Gary Cordes ordered to begin evacuating at 3:50. Apparently, according to Brandon’s account, they didn’t do that.
I don’t know how we can say anything definitive about this with the conflicted stories that are out there.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 15, 2014 at 5:49 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I still have a REALLY hard time imagining Tony Sciacca doing that.
>> He’s just not that kind of person or Incident Commander. Seriously.
I don’t know him. I can’t make statements like that one way or the other.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> He let 15K extra acres burn on the Slide Fire (amidst a great public
>> hue and cry about that) so he could keep the fire-fighters safe
>> instead of having them fight the fire in the canyons.
I know that you developed quite a high level of respect for this Sciacca guy when you were following his performance on that ‘Slide’ fire… but that was AFTER Yarnell. Maybe Yarnell itself is what caused him to be so cautious on ‘Slide’.
I would actually ASSUME it did. I mean… c’mon.
It’s not every day you are the designated Safety Officer on a fire… you show up LATE… and 19 men DIE on YOUR ‘Safety Officer’ watch.
It must have had SOME effect on him.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And I don’t remember anything in his interview (off the top of
>> my head) about going all the way up to the Youth Camp. He
>> said he was, basically, trying to get all the crazy civilians to
>> get out of Shrine Road.
That’s why I included the word ‘perhaps’ up above as to whether this ‘mystery’ about the ‘Incident Commander’ *might* now have been solved.
In his ADOSH interview Sciacca DOES say he ‘drove up that canyon and saw the Granite Mountain Buggies’. and he seems to mention seeing them ‘parked’…
But this is all about TIMING.
If Sciacca drove ‘up that canyon’ BEFORE the actual vehicle evacuations, then that means he saw the Granite Mountain buggies where they were parked at the Youth Camp… and that DOES place him exactly where he needed to be to be the one barking those orders to Bob Brandon and basically telling him to abandon his own men.
Don’t forget there IS a photo of someone in a WHITE Helmet standing all the way back there where the Granite Mountain buggies were parked and he’s interacting back there with Frisby and Brown in the Polaris Ranger. We still don’t know who THAT ‘white helmet’ really is.
However… if what Sciacca means by ‘seeing the Granite Mountain buggies’ means he ONLY saw them on their way OUT… then maybe he really never did get any farther than where we now see him in Hulburd’s video standing there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Only some more interviewing of Sciacca and/or the final appearance of some of that Peeples Valley evidence can really nail down who was really telling Bob Brandon to basically ‘abandon his men’.
If Sciacca was never back there at all… then WHO was the guy in the white helmet who we KNOW was ‘back there’ at the Youth Camp in that photo?
Anyway… here is exactly what Sciacca said to ADOSH about all this…
From page 15 of Tony Sciacca’s ADOSH interview…
——————————————————–
649 A: So when I – yeah, when I came around, trying to figure out who was in
650 Yarnell when that fire was coming there I wanted to see…
651
652 Q1: Right.
653
654 A: I pulled in. Sheriff had some evacuations going on.
655
656 Q1: Right.
657
658 A: And I drove up that canyon, that’s when I saw the Blue Ridge and the Granite
659 Mountain buggies.
660
661 Q1: Yeah.
662
663 Q2: Where were they? Could you – do you…
664
665 A: Uh, they were, uh, they were one canyon over from where the ranch house
666 was.
667
668 Q2: Okay.
669
670 A: That’s, uh…
672 ((Crosstalk))
673
674 Q1: Can you point on the map for that?
675
676 A: I don’t know if I can or not on that one.
677
678 Q2: Well if you know, here’s – this is the deployment site. Here’s the ranch
679 houses.
680
681 A: Okay, so it would have been up in the back of this community right – I believe
682 s- I was told by, uh, one of the Engine Captains there was a piece of dozer line
683 that I never saw that was in there some place and they – I saw – when I was up
684 in this little draw here, Blue Ridge came out with, uh, looked like they were
685 three engines, a water tender, Blue Ridge Hotshot buggies and Granite
686 Mountain Hotshot buggies. And everybody was driving out.
687
688 Q1: Coming out?
689
690 A: Coming out. And I was like, well I guess everybody’s in the buggies. You
691 don’t ask those questions.
692
693 Q1: Yeah, yeah.
694
695 Q2: You saw the – the Granite Mountain buggies come out?
696
697 A: Yeah well they were parked and Blue Ridge was bringing them out.
698
699 Q2: Blue Ridge was helping?
700
701 A: Yeah.
——————————————————–
By the way… this is a SIDENOTE but as long as I’m quoting Sciacca’s ADOSH interview… here is where Sciacca himself says the ‘outflow winds’ had most definitely ALREADY arrived and were ‘driving the fire’. on the very next page of his ADOSH interview transcript.
( As if we needed any more proof it WAS an intense wind-driven event )…
——————————————————–
766 Q2: Uh, firing. Did – were – were – were you – did you notice firing or what they
767 were doing for – were they bringing the thing down the – the east flank?
768
769 A: Was never engaged to that level. Was never up – like I said, my – by the time
770 I got done with Darrell and got around, it was already, you know, the winds
771 had kind of set in from a – the outflows had set in. And it was moving fire
772 pretty fast.
773
774 Q1: Right.
775
776 A: Um, toward, uh, toward the highway and then toward – you could see it was
777 coming in flanking into Yarnell.
778
779 Q1: Yeah.
780
781 Q2: So it went – it went east but then more south?
782
783 A: It kind of co- the wind kind of came out of the north, uh, yeah north, northeast
784 and just kind of pushed that fire to the southeast, uh, quarter toward the road
785 right into – right into the backside of Yarnell.
786
787 Q1: Right.
788
789 A: I mean it was – it was aggressive fire behavior for the chaparral.
790
791 Q1: Yeah.
792
793 Q2: Mm-hm.
794
795 A: Very aggressive.
796
797 Q1: Yeah. What kind of flame lengths were you seeing there, Tony?
798
799 A: Probably 30-60 feet in most of that stuff.
800
801 Q1: Uh-huh.
802
803 A: And, uh, you know, at the peak when I left Gary, we had a couple of gusts that
804 would just lay it over. And just, you could see the preheating and just, you
805 know, it was rapid. Rapid rates of spread.
807 Q1: Uh-huh.
808
809 A: Being – being wind driven. It’s a wind driven fuel that chaparral is.
810
811 Q2: Yep.
812
813 A: Wind driven.
———————————————————
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, quite frankly, to be perfectly honest, I’m not totally trusting
>> Brandon’s account. There are like, what, five different accounts
>> of this thing?
>>
>> Which one is the correct one? Who knows??
Yes… but I ( personally ) do trust his account of this mysterious person he was mistaking for an ‘Incident Commander’ ordering him to move those vehicles.
He told that story to the Prescott News reporter and allowed it to be printed publicly… and his own public account on the Yarnell Recovery Group BLOG matches… so I assume he’s probably telling the truth about that part, anyway.
Even the new Hulburd videos now back up Brandon’s account of how they drove ‘slowly’ to the Shrine parking lot and the men ‘caught up with them’.
We can actually SEE that group of men ‘catching up’ to one of those trucks right there in Hulburd’s video… just as Brandon described it happening.
One of the men ( on foot ) actually gives kind of a “What the fuck??” arm gesture to the engine in front of them as they finally caught up with it.
That matches Brandon’s account of the men actually being PISSED when they arrived at the Youth Camp and discovered that the others had actually been forced to obey this mysterious ‘Incident Commander’ and they really did move the vehicles out of the Youth Camp where the poor guys running for their lives out of Harper Canyon had expected them to be.
I don’t know WHO that firefighter is in the new Hulburd video giving that “What the fuck??” gesture to the engine in front of him as he catches up to it. It’s hard to see his face.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> This was a crew that Gary Cordes ordered to begin evacuating
>> at 3:50. Apparently, according to Brandon’s account, they didn’t do that.
I think there’s a fair amount of CYA going on over that, yes.
It still could be that Cordes told Esquibel to take care of that… but he didn’t.
Brandon’s account that he SAW Blue Ridge coming (literally) hauling ass ‘out of the forest’ and he then wondered “They are the professionals and we are just volunteers… what are they not telling us?” indicates to me that even if someone was SUPPOSED to tell all those Peeples Valley FFs to ‘evacuate’ before then… no one ever did.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I don’t know how we can say anything definitive about this
>> with the conflicted stories that are out there.
Well… see above. I think the new Hulburd videos at least sort of VERIFY Brandon’s account of how the men he was told to ‘abandon’ out there in Harper Canyon finally did ‘catch up with them’. Some of the new Hulburd video now provides visual evidence of that happening exactly the way Brandon described it.
As for the ‘race for their lives’ on the part of those men who were working out at that far end of Harper Canyon… and whether it really was ‘Darby Starr’ who ‘saved them’ ( and received an award for it )… the only way to sort that out is with more ‘focused’ interviews or testimony.
I agree the only way to know for sure is re-interviewing.
Which is why I keep hoping that whatever further investigations are in the pipeline, they don’t just investigate the deployment incident.
All the other various places in which people ALMOST got injured, maimed, or killed, need to be just as carefully investigated.
And, yes, I’ll go back and compare that photo with that video. Having a visual bead on what Tony looked like on that fire is really helpful.
But I’ll tell you, those white helmets can be misleading. The video of Cougan and Rance standing by a fence has a guy in a white helmet standing next to them. Unfortunately, there’s no timestamp on that video.
But I need to do a whole bunch of other things first.
I was out doing defensible space and gardening and I am thinking who am I to question folks that are retired or current professionals? I am just the desert walker.
Professional integrity and ethical behavior is crucial for personal credibility and professional success within the business world. I am not a part of that world. I am sorry to Elizabeth Nowicki, Marti Reed and Bow Powers for ever questioning you all. I am a very independent stubborn individual and I see this whole thing in a different light that more details are present just not shown.
I am sorry!
Bow- Bob
oops
NO APOLIGY NESSARY
I am not sorry and you should not be either Joy. We were there that day and have been there too many times since that weekend with elite firefighters and experts. They have advised us and when we had questions they answered them. I am confident in their answers.
We did attend the Yarnell committee on building the memorial to the 19 on Shrine Rd. in Yarnell. A noble idea though estimates are 180 grand and above. Chuck Tidy thinks he can find some help on that. They did say that they would mention the tradgedy of the aftermath of the fire as well considering that 33 deaths have occurred–add another yesterday. That one was due to lung problems. I should say that has to be way above norm for deaths considering that Yarnell has a population of only 645 by 2014 census. Joy says there are more she has not counted yet.
Now about that idea of a fellow going down into that basin in six minutes or so. That is indeed possible considering that he was full of adrenalin and knowing that his fellows were lying there burned to death. That same hike we took with Bruce Hanna and Bret Steurer of OSHA. The were trying to determine times of going down just as they were and approximately where the GMHS went down. Bret managed it in 22 minutes and we know he was in good physical condition since he also runs the marathon. Unfrotunately Bruce fell on the steep decline and his injury slowed him to 33 minutes and Joy was just ahead of him by 3 minutes.
Now going down in the black is much quicker than battling the boulders, brush and steepness that was there before the fire. Add 100F temperatures, a full pack of 40 pounds, a hard hat, and a bulky 30 pound chain saw and 18 men ahead of you and god only knows how many fell like Bret then you can imagine how slow progress had to have been.
Just chiming in with a few points here…
>> sonny said…
>>
>> Now about that idea of a fellow going down into that basin
>> in six minutes or so. That is indeed possible considering that
>> he was full of adrenalin and knowing that his fellows were
>> lying there burned to death.
At the moment Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown arrived at the top of the saddle and the ‘Descent Point’ location… even DPS medic Eric Tarr ( who was now already standing down there at the deployment site ) says in his signed deposition that he (quote) “Saw some firefighters appear at the top of the ridge and I waved them down”.
Captain Brown did NOT know the men were dead, at that point.
I believe Captain Brown ( like many Hotshots ) also had some EMT training in his background.
So he basically THREW himself down that slope, at that point, perhaps thinking that some/all of those men WERE still alive and badly in need of anyone with any EMT training.
Trueheart Brown was also in extraordinary shape… even as Hotshots go.
He is/was an avid Bike Racer… and I don’t mean out for a Sunday drive.
He regularly participates in those grueling distance runs.
The new Hulburd footage also now shows us that when he and Brian Frisby were ‘breaking through’ the fireline on the ground rescue mission… they did NOT have ‘packs’ on… so it can also be assumed that when Captain Brown reached the Descent Point and RAN down that slope… it was without a pack on to slow him down in any way.
Did not know that about Brown – checked and he is a Cat 1 racer, i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
Did not know that about Brown. Checked and he a cat 1 racer – i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
Did not know that about Brown. Checked and he is a cat 1 racer, i.e. VERY elite. Believe me, he is in shape.
He’s not just out there ‘riding along with the big boys’.
He has actually WON a number of these ‘Type 1’ bicycling events.that he has participated in. That ain’t shabby.
You do not even get to be a Cat 1 racer without having some serious results. You have to earn it.
And I imagine he has done it training less than 6 months out of every year – most of those he would race against train year round. His results would suggest his race season is about 3 months long (although am not sure how much racing there is in Arizona in June through August). In the videos he looks like a cyclist – he is rail-thin.
You don’t own me an apology for anything!
We all have our different backgrounds, skill sets, perspectives, valuable knowledge, opinions, mistakes, values, hassle factors, emotional ways, anger and frustration thresholds etc.
That’s why when this conversation works, and everybody is treating everybody with respect, it really goes quite well. I think we’ve done an amazing job.
Even when we disagree.
That’s why I love doing this. It’s quite a remarkable campfire circle.
And I’m glad you’re here!
As we still try to ‘get our heads around’ exactly what was ‘released’ publicly by the USFS ( via Arizona Forestry ) just last Saturday…
…I am feeling the need to CLARIFY something.
It was actually ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) who posted the first ‘heads up’ message about this new material back on October 11… but I think a lot of people jumped to a (wrong) conclusion about ADOSH’s possible involvement with ‘the release’.
Let me just reprint again that initial ‘heads up’ post from RTS on October 11…
————————————————————————–
On October 11, 2014 at 8:28 pm, Robert the Second said…
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
————————————————————–
Notice above that BOTH time RTS refers to ADOSH in the message he was careful to add a QUESTION MARK after that ADOSH acronym.
That means RTS himself ( and/or his source ) was NOT SURE whether ADOSH was really involved with this upcoming ‘release’ or not.
RTS was doing the best he could to pass on some information he had… but it’s obvious that even his own sources weren’t quite sure what AGENCY might be actually involved with that ‘upcoming release’.
So it remains a ‘mystery’ whether ADOSH was either informed or involved in this new ‘evidence dump’ in any way.
Marshal Krotenberg ( lead investigator for the ADOSH Yarnell case ) might have been just as astonished as the rest of us to learn, last Saturday, that the US Forestry Service ( and Arizona Forestry ) have ALWAYS ( and most likely still are ) withholding crucial evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people who were tasked ( by law ) with investigating this incident.
I’d love to actually hear ADOSH make some kind of ‘statement’ about what just happened last Saturday.
They are ABOUT to actually ‘review’ their findings as per the official legal request to do so that was filed by Arizona Forestry.
That ‘legal request for a review of the findings’ that the Arizona Attorney General’s office sent to ADOSH on behalf of Arizona Forestry actually says they think the findings should be ‘reversed’ because they think ADOSH made conclusions that were (quote) “Not based on substantive evidence”.
Now… last Saturday… Arizona Forestry itself just proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that both THEY and the US Forestry Service have always been ‘withholding substantive evidence’ from ADOSH while they were actually DOING their investigation.
Talk about a Catch-22 here.
Someone is asking someone else to change their minds about their conclusions because they think they didn’t have enough evidence… but that same someone who was supposed to GIVE them the evidence they needed is now proving they were always WITHHOLDING a lot of it from them in the first place.
You just can’t make this shit up.
I would have loved to be a fly on the wall of THAT office!!!
Beaufort Scale: http://www.spc.noaa.gov/faq/tornado/beaufort.html
When someone alleges that there were 40 mph or 45 mph outflow-boundary winds being felt by the guys on the ground at the YHF at 4:22 p.m., it can be helpful to go back to the multiple VIDEOS from that exact time period to see if they show visual EVIDENCE of winds of that magnitude at that particular time.
Specifically, the Beaufort Scale suggests that outflow-boundary winds of 40 to 45 mph would be evident in videos taken by guys at the fire by way of us seeing branches BREAKING off of trees and being moved through the air or lightweight lawn furniture falling/flying and WFFs being pushed or physically posturing to brace against the wind. An ATV or UTV trailer being pulled in 45 mph wind, for example, is going to show evidence of such. (While a heavy trailer might be immune to 45 mph outflow-boundary winds, a lightweight horse trailer or UTV trailer will not.)
I mention this in part because Bob indicated below that he believes that someone mentioning in their unit log that they felt 45 mph (or 40 mph) winds at 4:22 p.m. at the YHF means that there were ACTUALLY 45 mph (or 40 mph) winds at 4:22 p.m. from an alleged outflow-boundary being felt by the person who wrote the unit log hours or days later. It doesn’t.
P.S. I had said “Buford” scale previously, but I meant “Beaufort.” Sorry for the confusion. Common science/sence/sense. 😉
See my reply below Elisabeth addressed to me——–
Also note at 9:50 RTS left a note to Marti that accesses the Stanton Weather station history
access that the June 30, 2013 date and see the weather record from the closest station to the Fire.
As I posted down below:
40 mph winds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKnSyeby4s
Marti Reed says
NOVEMBER 15, 2014 AT 12:01 PM
Shooting in a 30mph wind!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vlONSxbDKQ
Good find, Marti. At the point where he gets behind the ‘trees’… both the SOUND and the MOVEMENT of the trees matches almost exactly what can be observed on a SUSTAINED basis in almost ALL of the Aaron Hulburd video footage.
There are actually places in Hulburd’s videos where the effect of the SUSTAINED wind on the trees around them is MUCH more dramatic than even this ’30 mph’ example.
Also… the ABC15 Helicopter footage totally supports these kind of SUSTAINED WINDS down there on the ground throughout the entire time that the ‘Air15’ chopper was over Yarnell that day ( 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM ).
I vote 30.
Although the wind could have been faster at the Youth Camp, where Tyson was, than further down Shrine Road where Aaron was.
Topography.
And since they were doing hourly local weather measurements at the Youth Camp sawing site, Tyson’s 45 mph could have actually been a measurement, rather than a memory.
And for simple sake out away from town and trees in the open brush flats of 6 to 10 ft. brush very well could be over 40 with the open conditions, Topography and fire conditions.
Pushing that fire into an upslope confine canyon would be like turning a
freight train loose. Common fire weather, fuels, topography and wind in a canyon/ chimney environment. Above 20MPH it is just Hell you don’t want to be any where near that environment.
Marti, I am not seeing outflow boundary winds at 4:22 p.m. that are in the range of 30 mph. What video are you seeing that in? Could you please point me to it, because, again, I am not seeing that in ANY of my videos?
(In the later videos, we see indrafting or convection winds (as opposed to outflow boundary winds) that are probably pretty high speeds, but 4:22 p.m. is the specific time that Bob Powers referenced, so I am trying to stay in THAT time frame, and not look at, say, 4:30 p.m. or so.)
Elizabeth… what ARE you trying to say?
I’m assuming you have NOT looked at even all of the new videos just released last Saturday. Please go do so again. Watch ALL of them… and pay attention to the TREES.
Also… go watch the ABC15 Helicopter footage again ( ALL of it ) and pay close attention to what it is showing happening on the ground.
Regardless…
Are you trying to say that the wind was NOT driving this fire that day in a forceful and dramatic way?
Is THAT what you are actually ( seriously?) trying to say?
Anything with trees in it on Shrine Road. Aaron was actually zooming in on them.
I was the high priestess of the Weather Wizards of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta for ten years.
I know how to read wind.
Take a deep breath She ain’t done yet
FF have a training S course on weather and how to read wind speed from observation.
They also carry a field pack to take on ground observation of
Wind, Temp, Humidity and Fuel moisture.
Several people were using these tools at Yarnell
Local weather at the fire can be some what different than Station weather away from the fire.
This is also based on the influence of local factors and even the Fire its self.
Yep.
Reoly to Bob Powers post on
November 15, 2014 at 1:12 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Take a deep breath She ain’t done yet
Done with WHAT?
Trying to establish that the wind ( regardless of exact, precise speeds at all locations ) was NOT a major factor in the rapid spread of the fire that day?
Seriously?
Been there this past summer Yup!!!!
Start here:
M2U00264
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t75k7o_L6B8&list=PLTErVrHH6uJja-ljtn7z9Q5Sz9WtCPGw1&index=17
Go further.
Marti,
Good catch. You want to focus on the winds at treetop level and not at the surface level
And at 0.52 seconds you hear OPS Musser saying “40 mile and hour winds at Skull Valley right now …”
Skull Valley is less than 20 air miles due north of Yarnell.
Exactly.
The ground is protected by the trees.
You look up in the canopy to see the wind.
And it’s definitely blowing.
And too bad we don’t have those disappeared photos and videos from the Peeple’s Valley Crew. I’m sure they tell a wind story, too.
Marti… there’s a longer post about this up above but here are just two quotes in the PUBLIC testimony we CAN see from Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon… who almost lost his own life that day in the Harper Canyon / Youth Camp / Shrine Road area…
“The winds were blowing 40 and 50 mph (in Harper Canyon)”
“They were trying to set up triage ( along Highway 89 ) but the winds were just too great”.
Gotcha!
I think the winds were blowing harder at the Youth Camp because of that west to east drainage leading right to the Youth Camp and then the pull of both Harper Canyon and the draw further to the east beyond where they were sawing under that boulder hill.
I live in a wind-path kind of like that myself. It was the main reason I could never hang plants on my porch.
If it’s blowing anywhere in Albuquerque, whether from the east or the west, I’m getting pummeled.
I also think it’s interesting that Tyson’s saying the winds were from the west.
Given that the winds were, overall, turning the fire clockwise from the northeast to the southwest.
I may know a lot about reading wind, but I don’t know enough about this kind of really complicated fire-weather to be able to figure that out.
Marti.
Have you noticed the flag across the street from the Ranch House in the Story and Tham photos as well as the Russ Reason video?
A little off topic, but interesting.
Thx! I’ll check.
I can look out my window, across the street during the Balloon Fiesta, and tell whether or not they’re going to fly balloons that morning.
And, also, whether or not they SHOULD.
TO ALL:
This red-herring seems to be accomplishing it’s intended goal.
Which of the many red-herrings are you speaking of?
I’m looking at my list.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
You are even more DELUSIONAL than I thought. Now you include Mike in there as well. And furthermore, you are so far off base on all your other meaningless blather as to totally ruin any credibility that you once had. You should maybe look into become a fiction writer Where do you come up with this stuff? Maybe you should seek mental health treatment.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE THIS WOMAN YOUR EMAIL ADDRESS EVEN THOUGH SHE WILL DO HER VERY BEST TO CONVINCE YOU WITH HER ‘JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS SIREN CALL’ TO DO OTHERWISE. I HAD TO BLOCK HER FROM MY EMAIL DUE TO HER HARASSING AND STALKING OF ME.
try and post this…5th attempt. even with the recent links and statements from WWTKTT in answering a question of Elizabeth if Frisby ran down in four minutes and yes I said Frisby because that is how it was put to me yesterday by Elizabeth so I contacted Frisby on topic and as well now request to witness this 5min30sec nowadays not on a night where for a couple of hours they are searching for the men and radio traffic is chaotic and so many are heightened with concern and its getting dark and a fierce flame is all around…This new name guy maybe with specific physiological actions in the sympathetic nervous system, both directly and indirectly through the release of adrenaline and to a lesser extent noradrenaline from the medulla of the adrenal glands. These catecholamine hormones facilitate immediate physical reactions by triggering increases in heart rate and breathing, constricting blood vessels. An abundance of catecholamines at neuroreceptor sites facilitates “Superman” moments. There is times when you are stressed you look back and go WOW, I did that? Let me see the same person do that today. So if you are working on facts than you gotta realize we dropped off that mountain and finally no more fire in sight for us and away from area at 3:33pm and let me say the GMHS did not have the same fast speed as this new name mentioned here because they were not running and searching for 19 possible fatalities. I challenge the person to redo that moment today because like Sonny told me Bruce Jenner in high heels or not could not even do that before the fire so it is a point you will not have us change our mind. Yet HOW about the two men going down that spot today and see how well they do. I use to drop off places MOST would use proper ropes and call it rock climbing and I use to be a stunt cheerleader and people said HOW THE HELL did you just do that? I know all about adrenaline because before my health bull bologna I was a junkie for the unusual stunts. Pure Adrenaline Awesomeness was me. Apples and oranges really. You would not say LSD is stronger than like amphetamine, there is no basis with just that statement. So to me, until I see those men redo that in a state of mind unlike that horrific afternoon I have no room to here what “appears” as facts is what it is…in their “Superman” adrenaline moment about to be choked up with grief and that smell I heard was so bad there at the site. Many I have known would never bunji stunt jump with me in the day…my body loves the intense rush. So again keep with your views and I accept it. Yet I have my own. Also again remember one of the YCSO and I hope you are reading this was very close to one of the GMHS and you were there in the aftermath and you are now cold and cut off a unit of folks you knew for over 2 decades—WHY??? what did you see when you arrived? What can’t you say? You have to understand you may have your sources out there but as the hiker we have met people that tells me there IS more to that afternoon than that SAIR and the SAIT did a great disservice. If Frisby and the other guy decide to redo that saddle run, I will let you know the time they did. Please do not think it is not impossible for them to redo it because we have asked some locals to give photos for how long and it finally SLOWLY happening…Now I do not need any more emails on topic. You want to email Sonny than go at it- [email protected]
You want to talk on another topic- sure but we are done on this topic. I agree to disagree.
Truly.
Once, when I was much younger, I had to jump out of a pick-up truck pulling a trailer with my appaloosa in it, and push a boulder (the nearest rock I could find) under the wheel of the truck because it was starting to roll backwards downhill and the emergency brake had gone out.
After I did that, I just was in shock. Total adrenalin rush.
I could never had done that in “Normal.
I noted down below that Elizabeth is at it again that every body on here is Fred again and there fore what they say is just Fred getting back at her.
Do any of you truly believe that John would allow one person to assume several aliases on here?
Do you believe that I am a close friend of Fred and talk to him on the Phone quite often?
There fore I know that Mike, SR, and Fire20+ are 3 seperiate people and RTS is 1 person who is a close friend.
Elizabeth wants to discredit RTS and she has gone to a Paranoia state to do it.
She has totally lost control.
Lets get back to the investigation which is way more important than one persons vendetta for what ever reason………..
As I did last night… if Elizabeth ( or anyone ) asks a reasonable question ( like where a piece of evidence is located )… I will answer that question.
I will have reasonable exchanges with anyone who our incredibly patient host, Mr. John Dougherty, sees fit to allow to comment here.
That’s just called ‘being civil’.
It’s the ‘off the medication’ stuff that needs to stop.
Let’s remember that Elizabeth in the past has also accused TTWARE and WTKTT of being the same person. There are all sorts of people on the web. I’d like to note one thing. She now claims that multiple people on here “hate” her. I sure don’t. I am more than annoyed by the way she has imo tried to disrupt dialogue and cloud facts. But, I do hope she gets whatever it is sorted and stowed.
I don’t know if WTKTT was as pissed-off as I was when the accusations were repeatedly made about us, but I do have to applaud his apparent decision back then, to not get into THAT conversation, however, I wish at least one time, he would have stood up and told Elizabeth how full of shit she was on that issue.
Has anyone else ever noticed that EN seems to jump in when ever a topic gets hot and heavy, and then takes the subject- matter off on a tangent based on iffy facts, and then when the facts are proven incorrect, she attacks the messenger, seemingly trying to keep people off the topic at hand.
Almost like she’s on a specific mission to do just that. I wonder what that’s all about?
One word EXACTLY ………………………………
Reply to TTWARE post on November 15, 2014 at 10:45 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I don’t know if WTKTT was as pissed-off as I was when the
>> accusations were repeatedly made about us,
Nope. I wasn’t. Didn’t bother me in the least.
>> but I do have to applaud his apparent decision back then to
>> not get into THAT conversation,
I have said this before but I actually participate in a LOT of ‘investigative’ forums like this… and compared to some other ones… this one is still very much just a ‘polite tea party’.
There are ALWAYS people on these kinds of public forums who get more obsessed with finding out who people who chose to post anonymously really are than they are able to ‘stick to the topics’ being discussed.
It happens all the time.
Those people are called TROLLS.
They have ‘other agendas’ contrary to the purpose of the forum itself… and they simply just love to hear themselves talk.
If the moderator of a forum sees fit to allow their messages through… you just have to learn to scroll past them.
As we who live online always say:
DON’T FEED THE TROLLS!!!
Yes…. but it’s also true that SOMETIMES you just can’t resist.
Feeding a TROLL and watching them ‘go off’ can be considered a ‘New age’ form of entertainment.
All things in moderation, however.
We should just all change our names to “Fred” on here and be done with it.
I can pretty well recognize everybody’s “voices” on here anyway.
M2Uoo271
At approximately the 34 second mark, Frisby says that Eric DECIDED to take the trail along the ridge.
He then says he went in to tie in with Eric and came across the lookout.
1. Does this mean Eric decided to head south along the trail, leaving the black before Mcdonough was picked up?
2. Does anyone else agree that Frisby and PNF guys can be seen with their shirt sleeves rolled up? Just curious
First, you are right on the sleeves – Frisby has his rolled once it looks like. True Brown has his down. The sleeves thing seems to be getting a little too much attention. It is important as a safety matter, but I do not think it necessarily tells us what really happened on 6/30/13.
I think Frisby says Eric decided there was a trail – does not say when he or his crew was going to take it. If Marsh went down the trail right away, how was Frisby going to tie in with him. Lastly, I think McDonough may have already left his lookout spot when Frisby talked with Marsh and Marsh knew this (but not yet been picked up). Of course, it appears Marsh did not realize how much trouble McDonough was in.
Maybe I can clear up this Sleeve thing or maybe not—-
Fire shirts are some what genic—They are made in all sizes but sleeve lengths are not a tailor order thing. By that I mean some people have shorter arms than others and those people male a 1 roll on the sleeve to keep the sleeve out of the hand area.
So when FF are talking about the sleeves being rolled up we are talking about a large part of the lower arm exposed or more than the wrist. The gloves cover the wrist when on. Also the Velcro on the sleeve dose not on some people close enough to keep the shirt from getting in the way of the hands.
I say this because I have seen a few pictures of crews with the 1 roil that people are saying they have rolled up sleeves. Those are not what I have been talking about.
Rolled up sleeves that expose the arm are the main concern that I saw.
Calvin there is more information to what you asked we just have not seen it yet.
There is enough in background on these videos to give us some pause but not enough to fully understand the conversations. So we question again?????
Thanks guys.
Two of the PNF guys have their sleeves rolled up as far as they can go, basically. And I have seen numerous other crews on facebook with their sleeves rolled up.
Also if I am not mistaken, Frisby’s skin is visible on that video.
And that did not use to be the norm crew leaders trained there people to roll down sleeves and put gloves on before starting work. It is a safety requirement on the books and needs to be followed I have seen some crews that still follow the rules and some that do not
mistakes shirts are Generic— and Make a 1 roll
The sleeves on shirts has been a common problem for generations for some and many females have had the problem more than males. First we had buttons then Velcro on the sleeves.
DIV A and GM knew there was a trail (two-track) following the ridge-line because the two-track they hiked up on that morning ended at the T intersection of that ridge-line trail.
The fire and their work area was up a ways after turning right at that T.
The probable location for Marsh to meet with Frisby, would have been at that T intersection, and depending upon Marsh’s location, he would have had to hike the ridge-line trail in either one direction, or another, to get there.
Reply to The TTWARE post on November 15, 2014 at 8:47 am
>> TTWARE wrote…
>>
>> The fire and their work area was up a ways after
>> turning right at that T ( intersection ).
Exactly… and when Frisby and Brown drove up for that first face-to-face meeting which took place from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM… they ‘took that right’
at the ‘T’ intersection and continued on ( north on the high-ridge two-track itself ) in their Polaris Ranger to the ‘anchor point’ location.
It has always been assumed that this SECOND ‘face-to-face’ that Marsh asked for with Frisby ( and that we now hear Frisby talking about himself in the newest Hulburd footage ) would be taking place at the same exact location as the first one… right there near the anchor point.
And given that, EVERYONE who had been up there, knew the ridge-line trail continued N/S, therefore I don’t think the conversation would have been about Marsh ‘recently’ discovering (or finding) a trail.
On Sleeves.
Excerpted From Two More Chains Fall 2014
GROUND TRUTHS: On Learning
By Travis Dotson
Fire Management Specialist
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
This summer I helped carry a fellow jumper to an ambulance. I watched someone else get hit by a large tree limb. I had instances of being concerned for my own safety. I choked on smoke. I made decisions about risk—both for myself and others.
I didn’t always wear my gloves. I rolled my sleeves up. I fought fire without a safety zone big enough for the fuel type I was in. I engaged without “expecting the unexpected.” (Yes, I admit I did not have a plan for a meteor impacting our spike camp.)
My awareness was narrowed by fatigue, issues at home, hunger, boredom, stress, and conflict with my supervisor. I continued to put saw line in as I thought to myself: “What the hell are we doing?”
I put fires out that didn’t need to be put out. I didn’t ask questions after a crap briefing. (I just complained about it later.) Or, I did ask questions at these briefings and just nodded when the answer clarified nothing.
I had numerous in-depth conversations about risk, exposure, policy, learning, hunting, traveling, and, of course, fervent debates on the value of bacon-topped doughnuts.
Did I Learn Anything?
pdf link (I don’t know if it will work)
http://tinyurl.com/oghuolm:
On sleeves:
Excerpted From Two More Chains Fall 2014
GROUND TRUTHS: On Learning
By Travis Dotson
Fire Management Specialist
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
This summer I helped carry a fellow jumper to an ambulance. I watched someone else get hit by a large tree limb. I had instances of being concerned for my own safety. I choked on smoke. I made decisions about risk—both for myself and others.
I didn’t always wear my gloves. I rolled my sleeves up. I fought fire without a safety zone big enough for the fuel type I was in. I engaged without “expecting the unexpected.” (Yes, I admit I did not have a plan for a meteor impacting our spike camp.)
My awareness was narrowed by fatigue, issues at home, hunger, boredom, stress, and conflict with my supervisor. I continued to put saw line in as I thought to myself: “What the hell are we doing?”
I put fires out that didn’t need to be put out. I didn’t ask questions after a crap briefing. (I just complained about it later.) Or, I did ask questions at these briefings and just nodded when the answer clarified nothing.
I had numerous in-depth conversations about risk, exposure, policy, learning, hunting, traveling, and, of course, fervent debates on the value of bacon-topped doughnuts.
Did I Learn Anything?
pdf link, if it works:
http://tinyurl.com/oghuolm
If it doesn’t work, I’ll post the page below.
Didn’t work……….
Also I posted a note below on Definition of Bump and Run.
Also WTKTT Methods left you a note today on camera info a ways down.
**
** TYSON ESQUIBEL MENTIONS THE “GET GRANITE MOUNTAIN OUT SAFE”
** CONVERSATION WITH GARY CORDES IN HIS OWN UNIT LOG.
When Tyson Esquibel was interviewed by ADOSH… he makes absolutely NO mention of what we can NOW hear him being told by SPGS1 Gary Cordes circa 1635, as everyone was evacuating from the Shrine Road area.
Cordes told Esquibel to send ( at least ) 1 Engine over to the Boulder Springs ranch… and he also told Esquibel to tell whoever he sent to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ ( to arrive there ) and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely”.
Esquibel never mentions being told to do that to ADOSH… but they never specifically asked him about it, either.
As it turns out… this is finally the solution to that ‘mystery entry’ in Tyson Esquibel’s own Unit Log… which no one saw until it was released in the ‘late package’ of Unit Logs which didn’t appear until February of 2014.
Here are those entries from Tyson Esquibel’s own ‘Unit Log’…
———————————————————————–
1622
Winds increase to 45 mph out of W.
Visibility drop to 150 yds.
Spotting increase, crews briskly move towards trucks.
1630
All crews assembled + accounted for at trucks.
TF2 + Blue Ridge IHC move towards Cafe safety zone.
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cave Safety zone.
1645 ( approx )
Deployment traffic.
1655
Assemble w/4 medics, myself, and all ALS gear to
do recon for GMIHC + start treatment if needed.
Waiting for info.
———————————————————————–
This is the relevant entry from Esquibel’s Unit Log…
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cave Safety zone.
This matches almost exactly that short conversation we can now hear with our own ears at +1 minute and 37 seconds in the new Hulburd video clip with filename M2U00264, right down to the fact that Esquibel said he would take care of that AFTER everyone regrouped at the Ranch House Restaurant… and Cordes ‘signs off’ on that with “Sounds like a plan”.
The M2U0064 video is 3 minutes and 37 seconds long.
At the very end of that video is when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘pull up’ to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and that moment is time stamped with the Blue Ridge GPS data as exactly 1637.
That makes the actual START time for this M2U0064 video right around 1633.23 ( 4:33.23 PM ) ( 1637 minus 3:37 ).
Caveat: This is exactly what I ( me, personally ) can hear in the background. Your mileage may vary.
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
————————————————————————
+1:37 ( 1635.00 / 4:35.00 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Task force two, Cordes, on our TAC.
+1:40 ( 1635.03 / 4:35.03 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Cordes, Task force two.
+1:42 ( 1635.05 / 4:35.05 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Do we have a coupla engines holdin’ in place at
the, uh, Boulder Springs Ranch?
+1:49 ( 1635.12 / 4:35.12 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): I’ll send one that way.
Uh… we’re gettin’ spots up here… but I’ll run one over.
+1:55 ( 1635.18 / 4:35.18 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.
Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
+2:06 ( 1635.29 / 4:35.29 PM )
(TLFD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.
Uh… we’ll regroup at the… uh… cafe and then send somebody in.
+2:12 ( 1635.35 / 4:35.35 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Sounds like a good plan.
————————————————————————
So Esquibel was, in fact, recalling that conversation with Cordes VERY well ( almost exactly ) and Esquibel’s Unit Log entry really does match this conversation almost exactly… except for ONE ( big ) thing.
Esquibel makes NO mention ( in either his Unit Log or during his ADOSH interview ) that the REASON Gary Cordes was telling him to send an Engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch was to make sure that Granite Mountain ‘got out safely’ once they arrived there.
Typo above. In two places… I typed ‘Cave’ instead of ‘Cafe’.
So this entry taken directly from Tyson Esquibel’s own Unit Log should have looked like this…
1632
St. Group 1 request (1) engine to Boulder Spgs.
TF2 request after regroup @ Safety Zone.
St. Group 1 agrees and will meet at Cafe Safety zone.
This also answers Elizabeth’s statement about there were no winds at 40 MPH on the Fire There were at 1622 an increase to 45..
So we can add to our list that Cordes knew what GM was doing either he talked to them or herd a conversation on the radio with specifics abut the move we have not herd. This is a critical find for ADOSH and possibly the Families lawyers.
Cordes— How did he know and what did he hear over the radio from Marsh??????
Bob, I will try to break down my weather/wind/wildland-fire calculus (and you can feel free to tell me if you see weaknesses in my calculus):
There is a tool called the “Buford scale” that can be used for ballpark measuring winds on wildland fires. If you look at all of the videos taken at 4:22 p.m., you do not SEE evidence of winds that would suggest – according to the Buford scale – that there were sustained outflow-boundary-related 40 mph winds on the YHF at 4:22 p.m.
EVIDENCE, Bob. Visual EVIDENCE – If there were such 40 or 45 mph winds at 4:22 p.m., there would be visual EVIDENCE of such in the multiple videos that I have in my files (and, as we know, I have perhaps the most extensive files at this point, given that I still have various materials that folks like John Dougherty and others have not bothered to pursue). Of course, if you have different videos that I do, Bob, then please feel free to point us to whichever videos show “Buford” evidence of outflow-boundary-related sustained 40 or 45 mph winds at 4:22 p.m.
The Videos just released when the vehicles are getting out show very strong winds in the trees and you can hear the wind in the recording blowing on the Mike. Those are very strong winds to do that.
If you also look at the Stanton weather station on the June 30 date at 4 an 5 pm it dose not record on the min.
so the 41MPH recorded at 5 could have been going on for 30 plus min. but then I went thru this with you during the summer and you ignored the facts then on E-Mail
So I am still on the facts and they are recorded.
The 20 to 30 MPH winds earlier 3 and 4 are way strong enough to blow that fire to hell any thing over 20MPH are a fire fighters night mare.
40 mph winds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zKnSyeby4s
Shooting in a 30mph wind!:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vlONSxbDKQ
I vote 30.
Although the wind could have been faster at the Youth Camp, where Tyson was than further down Shrine Road where Aaron was.
Topography.
One more followup…
While it is now clear that Tyson Esquibel was remembering that ‘Send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch and make sure Granite Mountain gets out safely’ conversation he had with Cordes ( circa 4:35 PM ) VERY well… and reproduced it almost exactly ( minus the REASON he was being told to send the engine )…
…there is no such matching ‘entry’ in Gary Cordes’ official Unit Log.
Cordes doesn’t mention this ‘sounds like a good plan’ conversation with Esquibel in EITHER his own Unit Log OR anywhere in his ADOSH interview.
So even though Esquibel thought it was important enough to at least recall and record that conversation in his own Unit Log… according to SPGS1 Gary Cordes’ Unit Log ( and his ADOSH interview )… that entire conversation ‘never happened’.
I am a little confused. Is SPGS1 DW or Cordis?
In M2U00266R, we hear what sounds like DW (confirmed by WTK) identifying himself as SPGS1, right? This occurs at the 3:58 mark.
Yes. That is how that exchange went.
Darrell Willis seemed to respond to callout for ‘SPGS1’… not Cordes.
If you look at at a lot of the radio captures when Cordes was the one actually responding… the tendency on the part of THOSE callers was to prefix their callout with the following…
‘Structure Group, Cordes’.
Also… remember that Cordes had specifically requested TAC 3 for himself and his resources down there in Yarnell… so Cordes was specifically listening for traffic on TAC 3, not TAC 1 or 2 ( like Willis was ).
Even Brian Frisby ‘called out’ to Gary Cordes, at the end of the YARNELL-GAMBLE video… saying ‘Structure Group Cordes, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1’.
I’m wondering if that kinda sorta or something has anything to do with Darrell Willis’ Unit Log being named “Structure Protection Group 1” and his map being named “Structure Protection Group 2.”
That has screwed me up a number of times.
There is no dobut there was CONFUSION about this… even in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
In Willis’ 3:30 AM Unit Log entry… he says that is when he was told Gary Cordes had been assigned to Structure Protection in the Yarnell area as ‘Structure Protection Group #2’.
So Willis really did think HE was SPGS1.
In Cordes ADOSH interview… he describes his official assignment in Yarnell that day as ‘Structure Protection Group ONE’ ( not TWO ).
Maybe that has something to do with Cordes finally requesting his own ‘TAC 3′ radio channel that day specifically for himself and his resources.
Down there on the South side of the fire… most people were using the following specific radio callout when they knew they wanted Cordes…
“Structure Group, Cordes’.
That’s even what Brian Frisby was saying at the end of the 4:27 PM YARNELL-GAMBLE video. Frisby says…
“Structure Group Cordes, Blue Ridge Hotshots, on TAC 1”
Just more evidence of how confusing things really were that day in Yarnell.
I have to say that I’m hearing that radio transmission a tiny bit differently.
As I’ve listened to it, and even as I read your transcript, it sounds to me more like when Gary says, “Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out” that sounds more to me like the “he” in it is the engine, not Granite Mountain. Granite Mountain is a “they” not a “he.” I think that if Cordes was saying this about Granite Mountain, he would have said “they.”
And then Tyson says,”Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.” That ties in, to me, with the engine, like Tyson is communicating to Cordes that he knows the engine is ahead of him coming out of the Youth Camp.
This doesn’t change the overall meaning of the order–to send an engine to BSR to “Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.”
Perhaps the inference is that once the ‘getting’ of Granite Mountain is complete, make sure that ‘he’ (the engine) gets out OK.
That makes sense, too. Good catch.
Marti… yes… I actually thought about that myself and made EXTRA sure I was hearing the word ‘he’ rather than ‘they’.
I believe my transcript is still accurate.
Cordes does use the word ‘he’ instead of ‘they’…
But my take on that is ( in his own mind ) he was just thinking of Eric Marsh himself and that was causing him to mix his singulars and his plurals in those hectic moments.
I think, to Cordes ( at that moment ), HE meant ‘Eric Marsh AND Granite Mountain’
Either way… Tyson Esquibel seemed to understand exactly what Cordes meant.
Again ( and as I keep saying over and over )… the REAL way to verify some of these background conversations is to re-interview the parties involved.
WTKTT,
See my comment, just above.
Yes. I saw that.
There are actually other places in the plethura of radio exchanges that were captured that day where people were mixing their ‘singulars’ and their ‘plurals’ when referring to other ‘resources’ or ‘units’.
Best examples are when it comes to the airplanes.
Unless it’s just a SEAT tanker… there are usually ‘crew’ on board an airplane with a designation like ASM2 or Bravo33… but a lot of times others would refer to these multiple people in that airplane a HE rather than just THEY.
I think it has to do with the fact that even when you know you are ‘talking’ to an entire resource ( like an Engine crew or a Hotshot crew )… you are still usually just communications with ONE person who ( in your mind, then ) simply REPRESENTS that ‘entire resource’.
Hence the tendency to mix-up your ‘singular’ and your ‘plural’ descriptors when referring to ‘them’.
Either way… I still think Cordes PLAN was clear to Esquibel.
Cordes was wondering if they STILL had a ‘coupla engines’ staged over the Boulder Springs Ranch. If Esquibel had responded in the affirmative I think the second part of Cordes’ conversation would have been the same. He would have then told Esquibel to tell THOSE Engines that were already ‘staged’ there to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ and ‘make sure they get out safely’.
Esquibel basically answered NO to Cordes’ first question about the engines by coming right back saying he would ‘Send one over there’.
Cordes understood BOTH inferences there…. that Esquibel was basically responding ‘negative’ to his question about any Engines already being over there…. but Esquibel would now be sure to SEND one ‘that way’.
At the end of the conversation… I’m sure both men understood what the PLAN was they just both agreed to.
After Esquibel got all the Engines in his ‘Task Force 2’ assembled down at the Ranch House Restaurant… he would send ONE of them in to the Boulder Springs Ranch with the instructions to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to ‘arrive’ there… and then make sure EVERYONE ( Granite Mountain, Engines, EVERYONE ) then ‘gets out safely’.
It was ( as Cordes said ) ‘a good plan’.
It was simply executed TOO LATE to make a difference that day.
If Cordes had given those same instructions to TFLD2(t) Cordes just 15 minutes earlier that day… everything might have been different.
Typo in last half of last sentence above.
TFLD2(t) ( Task Force 2 Leader Trainee ) was Tyson Esquibel, of course, and not Cordes.
I just had a question pop into my mind.
How does an engine get 19 people “out”?
Oh, that’s right. Cordes thought they had plenty of time.
I agree with the sentiment Bob noted, somewhere.
Given the fire’s dynamic conditions at that time, ordering an engine into the Boulder Springs Ranch would be a pretty dangerous call.
Remember what happened to the dozer?
Actually… Cordes was just asking Esquibel if there were already any engines ALREADY ( staged ) out there at the BSR.
It was Esquibel who came right back and basically said ‘no… but I’ll send one there’.
Cordes didn’t disagree with that ‘plan’… but he really was just wondering if they had one there already, or not.
I think all of this just demonstrates that BOTH Cordes and Esquibel did NOT really have a full grasp on the fire behavior or advancement at that time ( 4:35 )… or any idea what was really happening ‘out there’ in the middle bowl and on down towards Glen Ilah.
The fire was basically ‘already there’… but they seemed to be oblivious to that fact.
Just one more example of how the AIR resources were not communicating what THEY knew down to the ground command that day, perhaps?
I am working on the newest photos Joy sent me.
According to the metadata (YAY for METADATA), they were taken with an ipod, a canon powershot and an olympus.
Some were taken June 29, some were taken June 30 and some were taken after July 2. It’s quite a mix.
I have much more looking to do at these photos, and I will describe them in more detail and put them on Dropbox and, from there post them.
What I”m finding most important, in my opinion, actually, are the photos of the fire during the night of June 29. To me, they underscore the irresponsibility of ordering a SHORT type 2 team for the next day.
That fire was seriously BURNING HARD that night!
And fires, generally, from what I’ve read, aren’t supposed to burn all that hard at night.
Marti,
That’s correct Marti. GENERALLY most fires lay down at night, however, when there are HIGH NIGHTTIME temperatures in the 45-55 degree range in the high country or above 80 degrees in the lower deserts, there is the POTENTIAL for extreme to blow-up conditions on existing and/or potential fires.
Such was the case on the YHF on June 30th. Using the Stanton, AZ RAWS (Remote Automated Weather Station) data ( http://www.raws.dri.edu/cgi-bin/rawMAIN.pl?azASTA ) there were VERY HIGH NIGHTTIME temperatures for several days leading up to the YHF fatal day’s fire behavior on June 30th.
Extreme fire potential/behavior occurs on the day FOLLOWING the HIGHEST NIGHTTIME temperatures. If you go to the Stanton, AZ RAWS link and search the archive weather for the nighttime temperatures leading up to the fatal YHF day, you will note nighttime temperatures in the low to high 80’s and even higher, thus setting the stage for EXTREME fire behavior.
So, the high nighttime temperatures in combination/alignment with all the other weather factors, fuel factors, terrain, and such that day, caused the extreme fire behavior and extreme rates of spread. The YHF fire behavior was very similar to the June 26, 1990 Dude Fire fatalities north of Payson, AZ which also exhibited high NIGHTTIME temperatures prior to the extreme fire behavior. During late June 2013, experienced WFF noted these potential large fire growth conditions and briefed their resources on them daily. So, the YHF fire behavior should NOT have been a surprise to anyone experienced in the Southwest . Hope this helps.
Yes, this helps.
Which actually kind of underscored my point.
The photos show how extreme that fire was setting itself up to become the next day.
At both 1:30 AM and again at 3:30 AM ( in the middle of the night, basically ) Darrell Willis himself made entries in his Unit Logs that the fire was definitely ACTIVE ( and not ‘laid down’ or ‘idle’ ) even then.
Here are Willis’ log entries he made in the middle of the night…
————————————————————————–
01:30 AM
Bruce Olsen and I traveled down a two track south being the ( Double-Bar-A ) ranch and determined where fire was above ranch. ACTIVE fire behavior witnessed high up on mountain approximately 1.5 to the Southwest.
03:30 AM
Met IC Shumate at the Yarnell Fire Station, we discussed fire location, what I found at risk and general tactics. He informed me that there was a team ordered and they will start trickling in around 0700. Gary Cordes was there and he had been designated as the Yarnell Structure Group Structure Group #2. We both discussed the resource needs for Day shift including Engines, crews, aircraft and structure protection trailers. We all agreed that we needed to hammer the fire with aircraft as early as we could get them up in daylight. Fire behavior is ACTIVE.
—————————————————————————
SIDENOTE: calvin… if you are reading this… the entries above from Willis’ Unit Log show it was HIS understanding that HE was ‘Structure Group ONE’… and that Cordes was ‘Structure Group TWO’.
However… in Gary Cordes ADOSH interview… Cordes confirms that he thought HE was ‘Structure Group ONE’… not Willis.
Just more proof of the ‘confusion’ that was present on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From page 3 of Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview…
Q2 = Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = Gary Cordes
——————————————————–
115 Q2: Okay, and I got the first di- dispatch of Yarnell I got that. That was good.
116 Tied in with IC Russ Shumate, and your assigned structure group one…
117
118 A: Right.
—————————————————-
Dave Larsen is actually reading from Cordes’ Unit Log notes at this point in the interview so Cordes made the same entry in his own logs… that HE was assigned to be ‘Structure Group ONE’… not Willis.
Marti,
And of course with high NIGHTTIME temperatures, the fires burn VERY ACTIVELY at night. Active NIGHTTIME fires are and/or should be a big watch out and indicato toall WFFr. The Doce Fire, just prior to the YHF exhibited similar extreme NIGHTTIME fire behavior. This should NOT have been a surprise to non one experienced in Southwest wildfires
Marti,
All jumbled up there above. so correcting it here.
“… a big watch out and indicator to all WFF.” And also correcting the double negative here. “.This should NOT have been a surprise to anyone experienced in Southwest wildfires.”
Sorry about that.
No prob. I got the message!
Exactly.
WTKTT, did you post somewhere the download of the Blue Ridge GPS from that day? My notes say that True went down the slope in 4-ish minutes, but I vaguely recall that you did a minute-by-minute GPS (lat/long) download dump of it. If so, do you have the link nearby?
The BR GPS video is here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8cEKBzlhws&list=UU_-A47xgyIvRC3FoQGv3w4A
The complete TEXT version of the Blue Ridge GPS data, point by point, start to finish, with Latitude, Longitude and brief descriptions of each and every movement was published at the bottom of Chapter VIII ( Chapter 8 ) of this ongoing discussion.
The Blue Ridge GPS data shows that it took Captain Brown 6 minutes to make that descent down to the deployment site… but keep in mind that the GPS unit was only updating every 60 seconds.
Here is the part from that complete BR data GPS movement list that documents Captain Trueheart Brown’s fast descent ( on foot ) from the ‘Descent Point’ to the deployment site.
Columns are…
Time, Latitude, Longitude, Distance in feet since last point,. Speed ( MPH ), Description
——————————————
1822 – 34.221823, -112.782125 – 0715.249 – 08.13 – At ‘Descent Point’ and already left two-track starting descent towards deployment site.
1823 – 34.221024, -112.780913 – 0459.679 – 05.22 – Descending in drainage area
1824 – 34.220944, -112.780441 – 0131.291 – 01.49 – Descending in drainage area
1825 – 34.220760, -112.779878 – 0177.553 – 02.02 – Descending in drainage area
1826 – 34.220570, -112.778891 – 0321.836 – 03.65 – Descending in drainage area
1827 – 34.220503, -112.778188 – 0222.092 – 02.52 – Descending in draingae area, almost to deployment site
1828 – 34.220490, -112.777668 – 0156.980 – 01.78 – At deployment site now
——————————————
Six minutes.
Thank you!
If you want to get REALLY picky about it… look at the ‘feet traveled’ and ‘miles per hour’ entry for the very last GPS update which shows him fully ‘arrived’ at the actual deployment site.
In that last ‘leg’ of his trip to the deployment site… he only traveled 156.feet and his ‘average speed’ over those final 60 seconds dropped to just 1.78 mph.
What I am saying here is that since the GPS unit was only updating every 60 seconds… it is perfectly possible that final GPS entry shows that he arrived at the deployment site perhaps 30 seconds before that final GPS update actually happened, which would account for the small distance traveled and the drop in his average speed.
So, technically, I think it’s safe to say he ‘arrived’ at the deployment site in about 5 minutes and 30 seconds versus the full 6 minutes.
My sources are indicating that there WAS no argument between Jesse and Eric that was recorded on video, and my sources are two guys who were friends with Eric and Jesse and who were on the YHF, speaking with Eric and Jesse repeatedly that day.
(According to *other* of my sources, the R-3 guys are so sick of the one old guy who keeps trying to stir up inaccurate drama (like this “recorded argument” drama) that the old guy was not invited to come to this year’s R-3 IHC end-of-the-season meeting.)
Confirming the fact that there is not likely to be any argument between Jesse and Eric suddenly coming to light is the fact that, in Mackenzie’s recorded video clips, it sounds like Eric is asking Jesse about Jesse’s “comfort level.” Guys who are arguing or bossing each other around are not normally trying to get a sense of each others’ “comfort level.” If you are arguing or ordering someone around, you generally do not give a shit about the other person’s “comfort level.” 🙂
correct. they did not seem to be arguing so who wanted them to go down there? We know that Marsh refused early on “safe in the black”
ask Blue Ridge.
Once again, you have absolutely NO idea what you’re talking about. I ALLEGE that you are delusion most times. Your repeated feculence doesn’t surprise me in the least, so typical of you.. You repeatedly spew out misinformation and disinformation, bizarre fantasies, lies and venom and then attempt to mollify things with your nauseating ‘smiley faces’ like that is going to convince people to what? Go crawl back to your web or in your hole. Have a nice day.
I agree after the conversations Elizabeth has had with me over our E-Mails.
Who ever she has as sources are poorly trained and have a low IQ for wild land Fire
step up with your names or go crawl in a hole.
By the way your souses should check the R3 IHC meeting attendance. DAM that old guy was there invited by the way……..
Your sources are figments of your imagination….There is information out there I have herd it, RTS has herd it as have others and some have seen and herd the Audio. Because you and your sources haven’t is of no importance to me.
RTS, Bob Powers just said that you were at the R-3 IHC gathering just days ago, but I’m pretty sure you were NOT. Clarify, RTS…
I don’t have to clarify anything to you. Who the f**k do you think you are? See above.
🙂
So my intel was good – you didn’t get invited, RTS. Keep burning R-3 bridges.
Like I said. Delusional! You live in a fantasy world Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy. Crawl back into your hole.
Hmmmm, my sources have confirmed that you were NOT there, RTS. Now who’s the liar?
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
You clearly are DELUSIONAL! You live in a fantasy world with very unreliable sources to boot. Crawl back into your cockroach hole or go check your web. Like I said, who the f**k do you think you are?
Right – so you weren’t at the R-3 IHC end of season thing/mtg. this year. 😉 Ya might want to tell Bob that.
Your Intel is BS– You calling me a Liar Again you have no clue
What I say is fact and you are again way off base. Not interested in your intel any longer.
Discrediting people seems to be your way of life. Again go play in another sand box.
Elizabeth/Logical Phallacy,
Delusional and dangerous indeed I allege! I had you blocked from my email account due to your persistent harassment and stalking, so you now have to persist here on IM because you cannot do it elsewhere. Twisted.
WARNING: DO NOT GIVE THIS WOMAN YOUR EMAIL ACCOUNT FOR ANY REASON IN SPITE OF HER SIREN CALL TO ENTICE YOU, LEST YOU SUFFER THE SAME FATE.
She is really showing her true colors tonight folks – BLACK.
Elizabeth I will say this once as nice as I can Your sources
are fallacies’ as is your disturbing refusal to listen .
wasting breath but once more RTS/Fred was at the IHC meeting. We talk all the time ……..
He has nothing to prove to you …………..
What he dose for and with the Forest Service is none of your business.
You are proving nothing with this argument except your childish dismissal of the facts. You are in NEW YORK not following Fred around Arizona and New Mexico. and neither are your sources. enough is enough. You wont get very far calling me a liar on here either.
Bob,
I don’t have any sources, but I have to say Elizabeth has to be one of the most unpleasant people I have ever encountered in my life. At one time I actually felt a bit sympathetic towards her, but she is now determined to be utterly obnoxious.
I may not be convinced of all RTS has discussed, but given the inexplicable nature of what happened that day, what he says certainly could be possible. The co-head of the SAIT publicly mentioned an argument – so to discuss it is not at all ridiculous.
I do not know what game she is playing, but it is quite obvious she doesn’t care what people think of her. But I also think she does not really care about the truth here either.
Your right enough said Thanks Mike
I really hate to say it, but I agree.
I think that NORMAL law professors would care about repeatedly making statements that are very easily shown to not be credible. I try in these cases to think what someone is trying to do. If EN were trying simply to support the idea that there should be no accountability, which imo is where she started, she might keep saying “this was reasonable, the little trek through the green was reasonable, you guys aren’t lawyers,” which is more or less imo what she did initially. Now she’s gotten to a new level of nasty. I can’t know what is in someone’s head. In general, if I see someone devolve their behavior, I wonder if there was some intervening life stress. What I would hope is that she resolve whatever imo is troubling her, and do so privately.
Marti, you realize that SR and RTS and Fire 20+ and Mike are all “Fred,” right? Someone actually did a post once showing us how Fred has posted here under all sorts of different names, pretending to be other people so that it would *LOOK* like someone was actually agreeing with his crap. He accidentally outed himself at one point by posting the same exact thing using two different names. So, the fact that Mike, SR, and RTS “all” hate me is not terribly disturbing, because they are all just Fred, and Fred’s own crew has told me that he is a, umm, … well… they have used various words, as have guys at the top levels of the WFF world. They have all said the same thing – Fred is just not credible, and Fred is trying desperately to start drama and spread misinformation regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. One senior guy in the WFF community blamed it on Fred’s relatively recent stroke, one senior guys said Fred has ALWAYS been like this, and one senior guy blamed the Dude Fire. In short, if Calvin says horrible things about me, maybe I’d care. But if Fred’s made-up names says it, I don’t care much at all. My goal at this point is to try to keep some of you from creating needless and baseless noise that is incredibly upsetting to the people hurt most deeply by the GM tragedy.
Boy Elizabeth, you’re a regular Sherlock Holmes.
How else could you have also deduced, as you repeatedly stated in the past, that WTKTT and I are the same person, as well.
Please go back to your own non-productive blog page to spin your yarns. Your input in this commentary, is non-productive as well!
I think maybe Elizabeth might have some kind of multiple-personality-obsessive-compulsive disorder.
These claims are nuts.
“My goal at this point is to try to keep some of you from creating needless and baseless noise ”
And, also projection much?
Then… do your sources also know anything about WHO the ‘multiple persons’ were that testified to the SAIT that they DID hear this ‘argument between Marsh and Steed’?
In his (public) speech before Utah Firefighters on June 20, 2014, SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself came right out and said that ‘multiple people’ ( Even more than TWO? ) had said they heard this ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
He said they couldn’t (quote) “validate that”… but he also never said what they did to even TRY to ‘validate it’ ( if anything ).
But the fact remains that even the Co-Leader of the SAIT admits that more than one person says they DID, in fact, hear this ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
By the way… I’m sure any WFF will tell you that the moment someone is asking you what your ‘comfort level’ is over the radio… you can be SURE that conversation involves that person wanting you to DO something…
…and that any ‘What’s your comfort level?’ conversation can descend VERY quickly into an argument based on the personalities and the levels of ‘hard-headedness’ involved.
Marty Cole ( the first Captain of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ) has already testified that even despite his (supposedly) easy-going ways and southern drawl… Marsh was, could, in fact, be a real ‘hard-head’ at times.
WTKTT: Based on your reasoning, then, could it be possible that the “comfort level” discussion was what was viewed as an argument by some unnamed sources (again, not my sources, who were THERE and actually heard some of this firsthand)?
OH FOR CRYING OUT LOUD PAY ATTENTION??????????????????????
reply:This is an area we meaning me, Frank Serros, Tommy Maiden, Bryant S., Tex Gilligan can state we know that VERY spot may it be the saddle or center to the 2 track ridge looking down and we all agree on this statement: YES it IS deceptive looking and appears to look easy. In areas the day of the fire before it burnt was spaces and very thin (7 inches) of erosion space yet at points it had intertwined chaparral, scrub oak, cat claw, cacti, thick bear grass, datura, wildflowers, and boulders.
Recently we were asked can you go down in there?
Is it possible before the fire?
Well, to answer Sonny feels a bear can wallow around in there but no human he told someone recently and I disagree because we went that way and fought in the very spot the men died—that is what my gps coordinates but it was a maze-like dense terrain with very thick intertwined chaparral, scrub oak, cat claw, cacti, thick bear grass, datura, wildflowers, and boulders. Could an elite squad at the end of the day when they looked so spent early on do it? I would have to say yes being we saw them a lot at standby throughout the midday. Rested. It would be SLOWWWWWW going in spots. Would they make it in 20 minutes to the ranch…it depends how well they examined the box canyon. to answer you: No. It is possible if they could of scaled the boulders up top still having their eyes on the fire (still slow going but safe) versus dropping into the thick spots which even if you were the elite we can take anyone to an example of what they faced that day and many we took already said NO WAY! Who would even want to travel in that brush? Now for Sonny’s view:
Sonny says HELL NO they could not get there in 20 minutes from the saddle to the Helm’s. You could not even make it to the site where they died in 20 minutes after the fire as proven with Brett from Osha a marathon runner. He said it it took him 22 minutes after the fire just to get down the mountain to the site. Now, the degree of grade in some areas there were 60% and than add the tight brush. The brush Sonny states before the fire was so thick that it was like a maze to get through. There was no game or cattle trails to follow. About the only thing we saw was where bear had wallowed the brush down in certain areas. And those you definitely could not walk through. You could not roll through like a bear can. Willis stated in his early media talks that a regular human couldn’t transverse such terrain but the elite men with their chainsaws did and could.
It would seem that the FBI would get involved considering that millions in Federal Tax Monies have been squandered due to allowing this fire to an advanced stage and wild fire. Fema’s and BLM’s presence and observations in the early stages of the fire shows that the Feds were involved from the get go. There were federal lands that burned, albeit only 3%–still enough to involve the Feds. Also those Jet Liners that dumped thousands of dollars in retardant came from out of state, hence the crossing of state lines based on a felonious allowing of a fire to be the worse killer of humanity in many years. We heard of the arguement here in Yarnell of whether or not to put it out the first day or not and we have heard that a local dispacher was told to get rid of certain records pertaining to the fire. Those reports to us whether true or some people making up stories ought to at least be investigated and obviously not with the people who regard these investigations so lightly. To my way of thinking this situation demands an outside Federal Investigation. I am certain people have already contacted those outside agencies in a matter as serious as this one had become. I think it is called pork barrel money until it involves the death of men–then the realities of how operations are needlessly risking lives while ripping off the tax payer becomes criminal pork barrel.
I indeed see how the familes of these heroes are angry and add to that the people that have lost their homes and lives beyond that we begin to see that the tragedy extends beyond the lives of those heroes. What about the 33 deaths since the fire–the increased incident of lung problems and the loss of wild life. These are just a part of the mess debacle has created. Then you have people taking awards and bowing before audiences as though they did a great joy.
I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy and I will shortly attend a meeting about how a memorial should be. We think it should go to the site that the state wants to arrest you for going to see. You can go to Mann Gulch or the Storm King sights with no trepidation–People pay their respects to those sites–but this one has been treated differently. Why? Maybe someone can inform me on that one.
We will also ask for a memorial in Yarnell for those whom have died since the fire–Some 33 that Joy has names for since the fire. Perhaps not all are totally related but older folks that live her (myself included if 71 is senior) but this fire indeed has been a significant factor in those deaths. I think even of that young man Zack Ashoor of Phoenix who stopped me as I was walking down the street of Yarnell. He wanted to know where the site where those men died. He told me he had been in some of the bars with the men and when he heard the news he had broken down and cried. He wanted to see the place. So I took my time to hike him there and I noticed he used some type of breathing device,. although he seemed to make it well at my slow pace. He told me he had asthma. Once above the site he said I am going down to that fence, I have to go to pay my respects. I told him he might get arrested–he replied he would stand before any judge on that. I found that he was actually working on a respirator that would save lives for firemen–he said oxygen apparatus was just too heavy but he was trying to improve one so that weight would not be a factor. — That man was another hero in my book and I believe that breathing that smoke and bad air right after the fire actually escalated his problem–but nothing would have stopped him from paying respect to those men. I know it has affected plenty of residents including myself and Joy when it comes to breathing properly.
Yea there is more to come and Joy is expecting more quality photos from sources she has lined up. I don’t know that there will ever be a break here until the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes out– We need all the help we can get and just as Joy tells people, no matter how insignificant someones testimony or photo may seem, it may be just the thing to unveil another truth.
Sonny said:I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy said: I heard it the man who fought on this Yarnell fire Sonny…Prescott Fire Chief Dan Freijo…and if he wins he wants to unionize the firefighting community.
Just chiming in here with a point…
Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo was NOT in Yarnell at any time that weekend… but he WAS forced out of his job by Prescott City Manager McConnell following the incident.
M2U00266R (beginning at 4:08)
Who says “you can stage at the small (?) right there right on the north side by the mini storage. why don’t you just take the north end of town. I am down here on the south end”
SPGS1?
I believe that is definitely Darrell Willis responding to that ‘Type 2’ crew which has apparently just arrived in Yarnell and they want to know where they should go.
Willis was ( apparently ) already ‘down on the south end’.
He MAY have still been traveling in his vehicle towards the Ranch House Restaurant.
It was slow going for him as he drove down Highway 89.
There was LOTS of smoke and Willis even reports having to stop because of 2 horses running down the middle of Highway 89 as he drove down to the RHR.
calvin… followup…
I’m still working pretty hard here on the transcripts for all these new videos ( as released )… and I’m also working on establishing exact TIMES for all of them.
Since the USFS didn’t see fit to successfully fulfill the FOIA request and deliver ( as closely as possible ) byte-for-byte original copies of the material in their possession… we don’t have the EXIF timestamp information for any of these videos.
Not to worry. There are ‘anchor events’ in most of these videos that already have ‘known times’ and it shouldn’t take too long to discover what the exact START / STOP times are for each video… the ‘duration of time’ in-between them… and how much time is still ‘missing’ from the recordings.
More later…
thanks. patiently waiting.
I thought that was DW also. It sounds like he is talking with Structure 3 (Berry?) It doesn’t sound like he is still actively traveling south.
He (DW) says (At 4:12) “why don’t you just take the north end of the town, Im down here on the south end.” (4:29) “were just doing point protection, you know bump and roll on it”
And, with that, Calvin, you answered why the engine was going to the BSR. Bump and roll.
Fire terminology you might want to check on what it means before you stick your foot in you mouth.
That communication has nothing whatsoever to do do with Gary Cordes communicating with Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch.
WTF is your agenda, Elizabeth?
This post shows you have no clue what you are talking about.
Marti, what do you *THINK* “bump and roll” means?
Once you figure that out, it should be easy for you to figure out HOW that applies to the engine that Cordes was requesting be brought to BSR. He wasn’t asking for it to be brought there to somehow protect GM. That is something WTKTT is making up.
Also, on a personal note, Marti, why are you forgetting how NICE I have been to you off-line, outside of this forum? How are you forgetting that, Marti? I mean that sincerely.
Reply to Elizabeth post on
November 15, 2014 at 8:41 am
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> He wasn’t asking for it to be brought there to
>> somehow protect GM.
He is telling Esquibel to get an engine involved with ‘picking them up’ and to ‘get them out safely’. The word ‘protect’ is not in the radio capture.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> That is something WTKTT is making up.
Nope.
If you can’t at least hear the ‘Granite Mountain’ part of that conversation… you are DEAF.
Bump and Roll—
Move up put out fire or build line and roll (move) to the next spot.
That is what bump and roll means.
Or in Hand crew terminology Bump Up
One crew reaches the back of another in line construction and the crew in front bumps up and starts new line as the crew behind then builds line till they bump up again. You have crews working together to increase line construction rates very effective.
With Engines they are moving and putting out fires along a road to stop the spread
Also known as Bump and Run it takes team work and cooperation.
I TOTALLY understand what bump and roll means.
That’s NOT what Cordes was asking Esquibal to do.
Why would you say that?
You wrote:
“Also, on a personal note, Marti, why are you forgetting how NICE I have been to you off-line, outside of this forum? How are you forgetting that, Marti?”
Thank you very much, Elizabeth for emailing me with the hedz-up about the red Wickenburg truck not being Paul Musser’s.
Now, please quit wasting my time and everyone else’s by challenging us on every little thing without, apparently, having done enough homework to develop the knowledge base to do so,
And please quit wasting bandwidth and this page’s ability to process comments (and probably the readers’ patience) with all your jive about how people here, who have clearly different voices and personhoods, being sock-puppets of “Fred.”
It’s not NICE to do that, either.
Dear Marti: That is not what I am referring to that I did for you. Are you forgetting what ELSE I did for you?
Clearly you are, since you are snarking at me for no good reason. I get that this whole situation triggers you due to your horrifying own personal situation (which you have disclosed here and for which I have repeatedly expressed my sympathies). I, personally, have been nothing but supportive to you about that, which you yourself admitted. Therefore, in return, I would have thought you would have been a bit less inclined to lash out at me when I have never said anything personally attacking you.
And, thus, what makes you less of the “arm-chair quarterback” you accuse Bob Powers of being??
It’s totally clear to me that he knows light-years more than you do about fighting wildfires.
And, yes what you are saying could be true.
Or maybe not. I don’t know Berry arrived.
Typo. It’s late in a long day.
I don’t know when “Berry” arrived on the fire. If I remember correctly, he was interviewed by ADOSH.
Reply to Robert the Second’s post on November 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The two WFF I referred to on October 11th were
>> NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Thank you! It really was just a ‘wild guess’.
I still think it is more than likely, however, that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are all fully aware of EVERYTHING that Aaron filmed that day. They are all ‘thick as thieves’ there at PNF and more than likely they all SAW his footage before he even gave it to whoever it was he actually gave it to in the first place following the tragedy.
Actually.. he obviously did NOT give his material directly to Arizona Forestry or the newly formed SAIT… but went through his own PNF / USFS work channels. That’s why it took an actual Federal level FOIA to ‘shake them loose’.
We still simply just don’t know the WHO ( Sic: NAMES ) or what the ‘chain of possesion’ was on his ‘evidence’.
It’s still pretty much NON-CREDIBLE that Arizona Forestry would have ONLY seen the Hulburd footage that covers the actual MAYDAY sequence…. which THEY released last December.
If US Forestry really did ONLY show AZF ( and the SAIT? ) that one single file from all of this footage they already had in their possession from PNF employee Aaron Hulburd… then I would imagine there are even people at AZF that have a ‘bone to pick’ with Tom Harbour up there at USFS.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the
>> one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’)
>> that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet
>> seen these latest video releases. When I told him
>> NONE of them had any radio transmissions from
>> Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the
>> video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY
>> had Marsh radio transmissions in them.
Well… technically… since the USFS chose to basically re-release that original footage from December in THIS new ‘evidence dump’ as well… it is, in fact, true that THESE new videos DO have ‘Marsh in them’… but it’s just the same “Our escape route has been cut off” and “We are burning out around ourselves” and “I’ll give you a call when we are under the shelters” traffic from Marsh that was first heard back in December.
I wouldn’t call THOSE transmissions ‘damaging to Marsh’.
So just to be clear… we are talking about your source(s) referring to some OTHER heretofore ‘unheard’ Eric Marsh transmissions… correct?
THOSE ( if they exist ) are definitely NOT included in this latest ‘evidence dump’. Other than the same December “We are deploying” traffic… there really aren’t any identifiable transmissions from Marsh in THIS latest release.
We can certainly now hear ( for the first time ) that Gary Cordes was actually instructing his Task Force Trainee Tyson Esquibel to send an engine over to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely” (endquote)…
…but I don’t hear any NEW radio transmissions from Eric Marsh himself.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
I still believe the evidence points to there being some kind of ‘emergency’ transmissions on BOTH of these channels that day.
We can HEAR the ones that went out over A/G in the Hulburd videos… but we still haven’t heard the one ( or more? ) that might have preceded those calls but went over TAC.
Even Rance Marquez, in his ADOSH interview, is recalling hearing SOME kind of ‘emergency’ talk over the radio BEFORE he testifies to hearing that first “We are in front of the flaming front’ MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed over the A/G channel.
Marquez even goes so far as to say he believes it was something about someone trying to do some ‘sound location’ between Marsh and the Helicopters BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> None of this surprises me. The FS is well known
>> (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire
>> investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and
>> then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s
>> maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable.
>> And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports”
>> most times.
In case you haven’t noticed… I ( me, personally ) don’t give a rat’s ass what either Arizona Forestry or their parent company ( US Forestry Service ) has EVER done ‘in the PAST.
I want them to ‘come clean’ on THIS incident.
As soon as possible.
This is a seminal moment for them( no matter how they have handled things in the past ) and I ( and a whole lot of other people ) want to see them all put on their big-boy shorts and do the RIGHT thing this time.
It’s not hard.
Just tell the TRUTH.
For men who pride themselves on ‘duty, honor, courage, character’ and all that jazz… I haven’t seen much of ANY of that from them so far. All I see ( so far ) is a bunch of guys trying to protect their own jobs and cover their own asses. Not much to ‘respect’ there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …”
>> NOT October 8th
Copy that.
One more thing…
Obviously I am NOT going to ask you to query your sources about anything because I know you, yourself, are deciding how and when to participate in the PUBLIC part of this ongoing fiasco…
…but can you at least ‘throw us a bone’ and give us even a HINT as to what the NATURE of the information would be that your source is saying would be ‘damaging to Eric Marsh’?
Is your source trying to say that there WAS some kind of argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( just as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said multiple witnesses have alleged )… and that Marsh was beating Steed over the head with all kinds of reasons to make the risky move until Steed finally just ‘gave in’…. or something?
I would extend this question to whether leaving his crew a very slim margin was one of the traits that RTS has heard got Marsh lectured by peers in the past.
One of the backdrop training issues here is, should Marsh and Steed have been expected to know how long going through that kind of brush would take? Should they have been expected to know about foreshortening as it would relate to the illusion of the BSR being “right there?” And, does the evidence suggest that they both in fact did have those baselines of knowledge?
Intuitively, I can see a conversation where one party is insisting they need to get down and to town quickly and that they can make it. In terms of group dynamics and social facilitation, particularly during times of high pressure when there is a feeling of urgency, it can be hard to avoid going along.
SR From my Back ground Yes Marsh and Steed would know the time it would take from past experience as well as living in that type of fuel. its a learning process as you gain knowledge and experience.
Agreed. That would be normal thing, and most likely was the case. I think it’s worth ruling out if possible the off chance that it wasn’t the case — for example, one poster here early on was insisting that GM would have been just zipping along on game trails, even though he self-reported that he, himself, was in an outdoor role. The answer as to whether they had that experience helps on evaluating the decision making process.
They likewise imo SHOULD have known that the BSR wasn’t “right there,” and likewise should have referred to maps and among other things used their phones if needed to do so. So, should have known they would be a long while working through the brush.
Some Game trails are passable in brush humans with packs and saws have more effort to work thru it vertical verses horizontal. as the brush thins you make better progress which the open flat below the crew looked like easer
moving than the canyon with boulders and heavy brush although there were openings the made purity good time to get to where they were from the saddle. It just took to long with what they were trying to beat.
If you call a painfully slow walk good time, they made good time. But it was still at a painfully slow walk. I’m sure you’ve been in similar brush and I am sure you know that even great urgency doesn’t allow you to move much faster. Particularly if keeping a large group together.
I still actually wonder if someone might have ‘fallen’ or otherwise came close to twisting an ankle or something ( but was actually OK, eventually )… and that might have ‘stopped’ the whole group for some minutes during the descent.
Unless that person really was seriously injured… I doubt we would have heard about that even over the GM intra-crew.
But it still would have caused a significant DELAY on the descent.
OR wtktt that person WAS seriously injured and this is why Eric returned to the crew. Their descent was intensely dangerous, the cobble mixed with cactus on a steep slope made for awful footing. I can imagine something more serious than a twisted ankle…a broken ankle, a blown knee, a broken leg maybe. If somebody was injured it would have changed everything quickly, and in their movement there was no room for error. I’ve pondered this possibility since the beginning, it’s something a Superintendent would do….run back for his crew to help with an injured GMIHC. I have no proof of this of course, it’s just a possibility.
Fire20+… you may be right.
The ONLY reason I have been excluding a really SERIOUS injury is because it is simply inconceivable to be that the moment any Supervsior ( GMIHC SUP Steed or DIVSA Marsh ) became aware of it… that they would NOT have been notifying Operations about it… and requesting assistance.
It’s just impossible for me to fathom that these guys might have been so insular and uncommunicative that they wouldn’t have immediately reported a serious injury the moment it happened.
But then again… these are the same guys who didn’t feel the need to CLEARLY and EFFECTIVELY communicate about the actual move they were making in the middle of a dynamic fire situation…
…so maybe they really would have had that much of a “It’s nobody’s business but ours” mentality.
has anyone remembered the news when it first broke out? 18 men died. Has anyone listened to the radio communication links? 18 fatalities confirmed.
Is it possible that they found another body in another place?
Did they move a body to that spot?
How honest are the folks who were first on the scene?
Can they be given a polygraphed test to determine was there 18 at the site when first arrived?
I think that is an important question and issue myself.
Also, you have to remember one of the people FIRST ON THE SCENE was very good friends with one of the GMHS before the fire and now is no longer talking to the family so does that say something there. Guilt? Withholding information? Why be good good friends for over twenty years than cut the family out so cold? The first on scene are not in SAIR much for the details I need to know.
18. When and how did it become the number 19?
Joy— they confirmed 19 a short time latter’
The roster minus McDonough who was accounted for was 19 -1 =18 plus Marsh which then became 19.
The EMT corrected the number shortly after he made that statement when he checked and counted.
I don’t think there was any reason for a conspiracy here.
Had they had an injury I believe protocol would have dictated an immediate evacuation by Helicopter and a EMT to the scene.
Certainly it’s possible that someone had a minor or major mishap that was worse than a scrape. But, imo then they would have made even less progress.. Even if you have people upfront cutting what they can, it’s just slow going.
One of these days… someone needs to review the autopsy reports from that perspective and look for ‘fresh injuries’… even if in order to simply ( and permanently ) rule that OUT.
The fact remains that the GMHS overhead chose the absolute WORST possible time to descend to the BSR! They left when the winds and fire behavior were at a peak AND without the benefit of a REQUIRED lookout (LCES) OR letting OPS and/or AA know what they were intending and/or doing. and where they were going (LCES). They were there in the good, safe black all day long doing nothing physically, yet surely talking about these options and yet they DID nothing. There was NO need to leave their perfectly good Safety Zone!
In other words, they could have safely descended to the BSR hour(s) before and nothing adverse would have occurred. However, it would have FURTHER contributed to the Marsh hazardous attitude of ‘Bad Decisions With Prior Good Outcomes.
WTKTT – I’ll address your question when time permits
Bruce Hanna of Osha faced injury going down that saddle so WWTKTT may be correct on the ankle problem.
And, to add on, I believe Fred or someone who is from that general area said that 20 minutes would be a good estimate for the amount of time it would take for a ‘Shot crew to traverse that last leg to the BSR.
who is Fred?
Elizabeth said:
20 minutes would be a good estimate for the amount of time it would take for a ‘Shot crew to traverse that last leg to the BSR.
Sonny and Joy Said: Question. where is the LAST LEG location? from where they deployed? possibly but not from the ridge top/saddle.
Yes Joy from where they deployed to the BSR.
we, both Sonny and I, saw the other areas outskirts of Prescott where they fought fires…they dealt with brush like they faced in Yarnell so yes to that.
Reply to Method’s post on November 13, 2014 at 4:21 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of
>> filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the
>> capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s
>> videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out.
>> Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results
>> in a wider view and some distortion around the edges.
>> So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Thank you, Method.
Obviously we are struggling to figure something out here that we really shouldn’t have to. The actual name of the DEVICE that took these videos SHOULD still be retained in the EXIF metadata that is always embedded in the actual videos…
…but in this case… it is NOT.
The original EXIF metadata has been REMOVED from these videos, which means they are in no way ‘original copies’ of the material that USFS has in their possession.
Actually… it is perfectly obvious now that even though that video of the final MAYDAY calls that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called ‘The Helmet Camera Video’… these new clips indicate that Aaron Hulburd probably wasn’t using an official ‘Helmet Camera’ at all.
Yes… there are obviously times when the device appears to be attached to his Helmet… such as in the original December footage with the MAYDAY calls captured…
…but in some of these new video clips it is obvious it was NOT attached to his Helmet at all while he was filming.
In video M2U00266R… it is obviously just sort of clipped to his shirt pocket… more like the ‘Body Cams’ that Police Officers use now.
When Aaron Hulburd is standing right in front of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… the camera is obviously at ‘pocket level’ and all we see is Yowell’s shirt buttons.
So it was more likely just a camera that was able to CLIP to things, like a Helmet bracket or a shirt pocket.
Thanks for your comment and your interest in this ongoing discussion.
It’s only 8:30 PM here in Albuquerque and I’m almost exhausted.
And I’m thinking that today we may have set something close to a record of the most posts published here in one day.
Think about that.
It appears to me that, contrary to some things that some folks have said about how there haven’t been any significant “Lessons Learned” coming out of this fire. there may be, in fact many significant “Lessons Learned” that this fire is TRYING TO TELL US, in spite of all kinds of things that have been, and continue to be, thrown up as obstacles by various Powers That Be.
In a way… the original SAIT itself seemed to conclude that they had only TWO options…
1) Tell the TRUTH about what happened that day.
2) Pretend the TRUTH is unknowable and call it a day.
They picked door number 2.
They totally misunderstood what was hiding behind ‘door number 2’.
And here is what else they ‘forgot’ ( or were too thick-headed to realize )…
1) This was a HISTORIC loss of life. HISTORY doesn’t like ‘mysteries’ and
they tend to get solved no matter how long it takes.
2) This is the first major fatality fire of the new ‘Internet Age’.. The ‘old games’ aren’t going to work anymore..
Mr. Gary Olsen actually warned them about number 2…. but they didn’t listen.
well said!
So I’ve been continuously wondering how/if this thing could possibly, all things considered, get bumped to a FEDERAL level, since we have here a Federal Agency obstructing a legally authoritative State level investigation.
I’ve been wondering if this could bump it to OSHA, but I had not found out if/how that might happen.
Then Joy wrote something about how this should trigger an FBI investigation.
So I posted, could this happen, all things considered??
Then I got this response:
Bob Powers says
NOVEMBER 13, 2014 AT 4:27 PM
“No
I am not even sure with this being a non Federal Fire that the FBI
would ever get involved OSHA would probably be the first step
State level if information was with held from them.
Again this was a state fire no Federal Employee hurt or a Fatality
so the only thing the FS is doing is protecting their Employees
who were there and were involved in any supervisory capacity or the Incident its self which could stretch to BR and Air Attack
That’s the only reason on gods green earth they are not releasing Written Statements and audio/video they have that was in the control of there employees.
So again I doubt that the FBI would even be involved.
Court records requests are a different story if the law suit continues both sides will get all the records and videos in original format. I guarantee you they have them or are getting them now……..With this little surprise being sprung on the Families Lawyer.”
So now I’m thinking there are two possibilities here.
ADOSH gets pissed off enough that they appeal to OSHA. After having refused to negotiate with AZF.
OR
The lawsuit process uncovers evidence of the USFS obstructing justice.
I just don’t know how this kind of stuff works.
But, clearly, someone with the appropriate level of federal authority needs to somehow be triggered to use that authority to intervene in this and call the USFS to account.
I’m having a hard time imagining how the USFS protecting their employees equates to…
…the USFS obstructing an official State OSH investigation by both with-holding FOIA-requested information without documenting/communicating their reasons for doing that…
…and without documenting their reasons for redacting (to the point of possibly tampering with that information/evidence) the information that they have just made public.
Marti—-Maybe I can help or try
First forget evidence and look at the information as having names attached that are FS Employees who lawyers are attempting to protect from any legal action.
First the redacted statements of the Blue Ridge Crew What they said could bring them into court to answer questions we do not know what they know or stated.
The same with all other FS employees on the Fire.
While it may be evidence at this point it is information tied to specific employees
That makes it harder to release so we have a double edged sword.
As I said the Court has the power to request any documents deemed evidence by either party The FS would have to release that evidence in full and the judge would deter its relevance to the case along with names of the employees that would be called for testimony so no one has really with held evidence till the case is set and goes to trial. That’s fairly simple as I am not a Lawyer but have sit and heard back and forth arguments by Lawyers in court over this same type of information. The FS would not be able to stop the court from getting the full video and the person who took it from having to testify as to its complete validity.
So right now it is a chess game to keep names of FS people private until the case comes to trial. Under certain legal terms they are allowed to redacted statements made by the people they represent.
Dose that help any there are legal terms and laws that are at work here but at this time they are not tampering with evidence unless the destroy it they are giving only what they have to under the law and still protect there client.
A simpleton’s explanation at best. There is also no Felony charges at this time.
so it is a civil law suit which changes a lot of the legal as I say mumbo jumbo.
It would seem that the FBI would get involved considering that millions in Federal Tax Monies have been squandered due to allowing this fire to an advanced stage and wild fire. Fema’s and BLM’s presence and observations in the early stages of the fire shows that the Feds were involved from the get go. There were federal lands that burned, albeit only 3%–still enough to involve the Feds. Also those Jet Liners that dumped thousands of dollars in retardant came from out of state, hence the crossing of state lines based on a felonious allowing of a fire to be the worse killer of humanity in many years. We heard of the arguement here in Yarnell of whether or not to put it out the first day or not and we have heard that a local dispacher was told to get rid of certain records pertaining to the fire. Those reports to us whether true or some people making up stories ought to at least be investigated and obviously not with the people who regard these investigations so lightly. To my way of thinking this situation demands an outside Federal Investigation. I am certain people have already contacted those outside agencies in a matter as serious as this one had become. I think it is called pork barrel money until it involves the death of men–then the realities of how operations are needlessly risking lives while ripping off the tax payer becomes criminal pork barrel.
I indeed see how the familes of these heroes are angry and add to that the people that have lost their homes and lives beyond that we begin to see that the tragedy extends beyond the lives of those heroes. What about the 33 deaths since the fire–the increased incident of lung problems and the loss of wild life. These are just a part of the mess debacle has created. Then you have people taking awards and bowing before audiences as though they did a great joy.
I hear of one even running for political office–If he winis I hope he is more successful there than he was on this fire.
Joy and I will shortly attend a meeting about how a memorial should be. We think it should go to the site that the state wants to arrest you for going to see. You can go to Mann Gulch or the Storm King sights with no trepidation–People pay their respects to those sites–but this one has been treated differently. Why? Maybe someone can inform me on that one.
We will also ask for a memorial in Yarnell for those whom have died since the fire–Some 33 that Joy has names for since the fire. Perhaps not all are totally related but older folks that live her (myself included if 71 is senior) but this fire indeed has been a significant factor in those deaths. I think even of that young man Zack Ashoor of Phoenix who stopped me as I was walking down the street of Yarnell. He wanted to know where the site where those men died. He told me he had been in some of the bars with the men and when he heard the news he had broken down and cried. He wanted to see the place. So I took my time to hike him there and I noticed he used some type of breathing device,. although he seemed to make it well at my slow pace. He told me he had asthma. Once above the site he said I am going down to that fence, I have to go to pay my respects. I told him he might get arrested–he replied he would stand before any judge on that. I found that he was actually working on a respirator that would save lives for firemen–he said oxygen apparatus was just too heavy but he was trying to improve one so that weight would not be a factor. — That man was another hero in my book and I believe that breathing that smoke and bad air right after the fire actually escalated his problem–but nothing would have stopped him from paying respect to those men. I know it has affected plenty of residents including myself and Joy when it comes to breathing properly.
Yea there is more to come and Joy is expecting more quality photos from sources she has lined up. I don’t know that there will ever be a break here until the whole truth and nothing but the truth comes out– We need all the help we can get and just as Joy tells people, no matter how insignificant someones testimony or photo may seem, it may be just the thing to unveil another truth.
I want to bring this to the top since identifying the camera Aaron was using and, thus, how it would have recorded those videos is so critical right now:
Methods says
NOVEMBER 13, 2014 AT 4:21 PM
“Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out. Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results in a wider view and some distortion around the edges. So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.”
I’m asking back, since I’m really unfamiliar with these kinds of cameras.
Do you have any idea, at this point, what kind of camera Aaron might have been using, if not a GoPro?
And thank you so much for posting this.
From my experience, no “helmet cams” have the ability to zoom. These type of cameras are meant to capture action sports and give a first person perspective, so they tend to have wide angle lenses on them. I honestly don’t know what kind of camera Aaron was using.
One thing that I did notice with the file names of the “newly” released videos is that the ones that have a “R” at the end are viewable in 1080p (HD) while the others without the “R” are only viewable in 480p. My only explanation for this would be that Aaron was switching between “low” and “high” quality mode or he was using two separate cameras. Both explanations seem weird to me. Sorry if this info has all ready been discussed.
“R” = Redacted
OK. I’m gonna write about something that has been bugging me all along. I’ve written about it before, but these videos have something in them that puts a period on the end of all my thoughts.
Way downstream, on November 12, 2024 at 10:18 PM, WTKTT wrote:
“So just since Saturday… we finally see proof positive that the US Forestry Service has ALWAYS been withholding important evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident.
And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others?).”
Long, long ago, I saw, in one of Joy’s photos, a truck in a place where it shouldn’t have been at that time, according to my understanding of things.
It was, as it turned out, after a bit of confusion, Rance Marquez truck. It was on the dozer line, just above where GM’s sup/chase trucks were parked. After I figured out the 4-hour time correction for Joy’s photos, I realized that truck was sitting there at 10:21 AM.
At first I thought that was Cougan Carother’s truck and I was wondering “Why is Cougan there at that time???”
Then I figured out it was Rance’s truck, and still had the same question.
According to Rance’s Unit Logs, which he wrote up specifically for ADOSH, he arrived at ICP at about 1030, was briefed, had Cougan assigned to him as STL(T), and they left the ICP between 1130 and 1200, found Gary Cordes, who led them up to the dozer line, and visited w/Blue Ridge, and then headed up to the dozer line.
That narrative basically agrees with what Blue Ridge and Cordes says about their arrival.
So, again, why is his truck on the dozer line at 10:30? That was 1/2 hour after Blue Ridge got there, according to Joy’s photos.
He also says in his ADOSH interview:
“243 And by the time I left, um, so by the time I got radio – radio’s cloned and mobile clone – handheld cloned, all that kind of stuff, um, you know, it was
about 12:00 – 12:30 before I – about 11:30, 12:00 to – to – and 12:30 before I got
a ICP. At the last minute, um, another individual was assigned to go with me uh, by the name of Cougan Carothers as a Strike Team Leader Trainee.”
OK OK OK that could be just a matter of what our counselor says, that, in essence, mostly firefighters aren’t paying a lot of attention to their watches when they’re on a fire.
But that did kind of catch my attention.
Which led into the next thing that began bugging me.
When I was vehicle-searching, I noticed that Cougan’s blue pickup crossed the A2A videocam, heading east at 3:51 PM. I never saw it head back west.I realized that that didn’t make sense because I had just read Rance’s interview and unit logs.
His narrative and that blue truck appearance didn’t jive.
In his unit logs he wrote that he and Cougan were working, alongside five members of the Price-Valley Helitack Crew, Dan Philbin, and a bunch of “resources” doing structure protection (I think in the Sickles Road area) when, around 1600 the intensity increased, a SEAT dropped a load of retardant, he then had people mopping up, and then heard Air Attack ask if “they could hear the helicopter.” And then the Mayday communications began.
In his interview he said:
“1406 Uh, after the fire got um, was no longer a threat to the structures, we organized a little bit of mop up and um, I heard that and then right after that – right after the fire front passed those houses and the smoke kind of just subsided a little bit, um, I heard air – air to ground, which I’m at the time, I was told it was Lead 1-1, um, asking someone on the ground if they could see the helicopter and then um, a little bit later, I heard them ask if they could hear the helicopter which that got me uh, I knew something was not right exactly. Didn’t know what and then um, there was a loud – someone yelled into the radio and uh, and then who- and the Air Attack responded by whoever was yelling into the radio to please stop and uh, then he just kept calling for Granite Mountain. There was never a response after that.”
Then, according to his interview narrative he and Cougan were organized into a search and rescue group and sent down to Yarnell.
The problem is Cougan’s truck passing the Air2Air videocam at 3;51 PM.
So, I thought, well, maybe Cougan or both of them (they pretty much stuck together all day) went out to 89 for something then and came back. But it still bugged me. Partially because I never saw it come back west.
So, it turns out, Cougan’s truck is practically front and center starting at +3:37 in the Helmetcam video M2U00264. Cougan drives up Shrine Road to the point where Aaron is standing, turns around in the wide area where people coming in , including Tony Sciacca just earlier, were turning around, and they heads back out. This is, vaguely apparently, just before M2U00265, the Last Minutes video.
Cougan [and possibly Rance] couldn’t possibly have been at Sickles Road doing a big structure protection operation and on Shrine Road at the same time.
That’s a “timing mistake” a few orders of magnitude more serious than the one regarding his activities that morning.
Remember,
“And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others?).”
And thanks, Aaron, for finally showing me what Tony Sciacca looked like on this fire. Not knowing that, while trying to identify all the people in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot, was VERY frustrating.
LOL. The moment I saw that Blue Pickup turning around right there in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot my immediate thought was… “Geez… Marti is going to do a big WTF over THAT… it’s not supposed to be there at that time. No way.’
Even now… does it matter where any particular truck was when?
The answer is still YES… because it MATTERS whether we can trust people’s accounts of WHERE they were and WHAT they were doing and WHEN.
It also still matters whether external evidence supports statements being made in people’s testimony to both the SAIT and ADOSH.
It matters very much.
I just checked Gary Cordes’ ADOSH interview one more time to make sure I wasn’t missing something.
He DOES tell ADOSH he never had any doubts that Marsh was headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch… and that he thought they all had ‘plenty of time to get there’…
…but it’s been confirmed now.
Gary Cordes NEVER mentions to the investigators that he actually had a PLAN to make SURE Marsh and Granite Mountain got out of there safely’ and that even before the deployment he specifically instructed his Task Force Leader Trainee Tyson Esquibel to send an engine over there and then specifically told Esquibel to tell that Engine Captain/Crew to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ arriving there and to then ‘make sure they get out safely’.
There is NOTHING in his testimony about this. Zero. Zip. Nada.
So… we really are back to not being able to trust that ANY of these firefighters were telling ADOSH ‘the whole story’. We know now that a lot of them were, themselves, probably ‘withholding information’ from investigators.
With regards to Gary Cordes’ plan that we now can hear him sharing with Tyson Esquibel… has it dawned on anyone else that what Cordes was essentially doing was telling Esquibel to send an Engine over to the BSR and tell it to act as LOOKOUT for Granite Mountain?
Cordes is telling Esquibel to send an engine and be sure to tell him to ‘watch for Granite Mountain’ ( to arrive there ) and to ‘make sure they get out safely’.
That sure as hell sounds like someone telling someone else to establish a LOOKOUT for another group of men.
It never happened.
It was too late for Cordes’ PLAN to make any difference.
But what if he had given those instruction to Esquibel even 15 minutes earlier?
What if there really HAD been an Engine sitting at the Boulder Springs Ranch with Cordes’ specific instructions ( via Esquibel ) to ‘watch for them arriving there and make sure they get out safely’.
Maybe ( just maybe ) that Engine could have SEEN the danger and would have had enough time to WARN them about what they were walking straight into… and everything might have been different that day.
15 minutes might have made all the difference. There would have been time for them to either start HAULING ASS forward to the Ranch and (perhaps) beat the fire there… or start HAULING ASS backwards and make it back up ( and OVER ) that ridge.
Yes… I know… Gary Cordes DID tell ADOSH that he actually thought Marsh and Granite Mountain had ‘plenty of time’ to get to the BSR… and I assume that was his way of telling ADOSH why he wasn’t more concerned about them that day and didn’t do more to VERIFY where they were or what their real STATUS was…
…but I still can’t help thinking.
What if…
Maybe another ‘Lesson Learned’ here… for ANYONE in a command position?
If you actually KNOW exactly where a group of men is headed under dynamic fire conditions… and there is ANY thought in your mind that they might actually need Engine and/or LOOKOUT support…
…don’t hesitate.
Do it NOW. Not later.
Your instincts might be right… and minutes might matter.
I could answer this but it makes Cordes a very stupid OPS to even allow it in the first place. Extreme calculated risk to move a crew??????????????
This also completely ties into the reality that there was no established ‘Division Z Supervisor’ in that area that day… at this crucial time.
We now have evidence that BOTH Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby
and SPGS1 Gary Cordes were ‘picking up the slack’ there at various times and taking it upon themselves to do things ( or just coordinate things ) that a ‘Division Supervisor’ for that sector would have normally been doing.
Cordes’ instinct to send an engine to BSR to ‘make sure Granite gets out of there safely’ was correct ( even if he executed the plan too late )… but is that something a ‘Structure Protection Guy’ in a sector of a fire should have even been responsible for doing?
I think Cordes and Frisby were VERY much aware that they were ‘on their own’ down there, even after Musser showed up… and they were just doing things they felt needed to be done because no one else was on top of all this.
I think the absolutely botched management structure of this fire really DID contribute to the ‘accident’ ( and all the other near ‘accidents’ ) that day.
Again I say lessons learned Esperanza FIRE you would be sending Engines down a road being over run by fire to a very hot SZ if they got there How would they help a crew 2/3 of the way down a mountain?
Just putting more fire fighters in harms way or a structure FF attitude.
It was way to late by the time he was asking.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 12, 2014 at 10:40 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> Also in the one video that homeowner with white truck I am working
>> with cold case to identify if that is our missing man—suicide hiker— who
>> after the fire went missing…the neighboring folks stated they saw fire
>> folks on his property as well in the Shrine area when he was still around
>> so it is interesting if it was Mark Danielson and will have to investigate
>> as to why they had fire meetings on his property he was staying.
>> I will get into this more later on when I have the time.
Joy… if you are talking about that moment in video M2U00266R where
that white pickup with the ‘camper top’ and ‘metal rack on top’ comes out
of that driveway at +2 minutes and 53 seconds into the video… then here is
some more information on that.
I don’t know if any of this will help you at all… but on the mere CHANCE
that it might… here it is…
** Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Camera Video M2U00266R
This is the video that has face of the driver of that white pickup truck manually ‘pixelated’ by whoever was redacting these videos.
There also is no moment when the license plate of the white truck is visible… but after the driver of the white pickup truck agrees to drive the OTHER vehicle he says he owns out ( which is an orange/rust ISUZU )… the license plate of that ISUZU does become ‘visible’ for two frames in the video. See below for possible license plate number.
The ADDRESS of the house that the firefighters in the video are standing in front of with the driveway where the white pickup ’emerges’ is…
16863 W Shrine Rd., Yarnell, AZ 85362
According to PUBLIC records on the Yavapai County Assessors ‘Parcel Lookup’ website… the ‘parcel number’ for the property where the white pickup truck emerged is…
203-11-104F
Public Information for Parcel 203-11-104F:
Physical Address: 16863 W Shrine Dr.
Owner on Record: BECKETT CARL E & ARLENE M JT
Owner’s Mailing Address: 2165 S JAVALINA AVE, YUMA, AZ 85364-6171
From Video clip M2U00266R
—————————————————————————-
+2:53
The white pickup truck is now coming out of his driveway and pulling up to Jason Clawson ( in the white helmet ) on Shrine Road.
+2:54
(Aaron Hulburd speaking to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): Is anybody else in here? This is the last person?
+2:57
(Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air-To-Ground
+3:00
The white pickup stops at the end of the driveway and the driver can now be seen. His FACE has been ‘pixelated’ by someone and that is one of the reasons this filename has the ‘R’ suffix on the end. This video has been ‘Redacted’ in places.
The white pickup has a full ‘camper top’ and a black ‘metal rack’ on the top that extends the length of the camper top and all the way over the cab of the truck as well.
The driver is wearing a white, short sleeved shirt. Possibly just a white T-shirt.
The driver is now about to ask Jason Clawson if one of them could drive another vehicle that he has ‘down the road a ways’.
(Driver of the white pickup): Can I get one a you guys to drive my other vehicle down the road a ways?
Jason Clawson agrees to move his other vehicle.
+4:31
Jason Clawson appears coming down the driveway driving an orange/rust colored ISUZU SUV with WHITE ‘canoe rack’ style horizontal bars on the top over the cab and the very back of the roof. It has ‘square’ headlights and an ISUZU logo plate on the front grill. Spare tire with a WHITE interior rim is mounted externally on the left rear of the back of the ISUZU.
At +4:36 in the video… the license plate on the back of the ISUZU becomes ‘in focus’ for only 2 video frames. It is an Arizona plae that *appears* to be number… “J9J LTM”
+4:38
Jason Clawson drives the ISUZU to the EAST on Shrine Road, following the white pickup truck.
—————————————————————————–
Thanks for this.
I was seriously wondering who that fire-fighter driving that truck was.
I still haven’t gotten solid enough on what the Prescott Three look like.
That moment when Jason Clawson pulls out of the driveway in the ISUZU and looks directly at Aaron Hulburd’s camera is actually the ONLY time in ALL of these video sequences when we can see exactly what Jason Clawson looks like.
In other online photos of him… he is clean shaven.
This day ( June 30, 2013 ), Jason Clawson had a ‘goatee style’ beard growing.
great information. having to go to Yarnell meeting so my time is up here but look forward to looking at this post again.
WTKTT, kudos to you for the fade clips from the air footage.
I have no clue if they are accurate or not, but I most certainly could not have done them! Good on you! If you end up doing the rest of them, I think that will be incredibly valuable (almost as much as the video clip with Musser in it 😉 ).
Anyway, just wanted to give you a shout-out and kudos.
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 13, 2014 at 5:05 pm
>> Elizabeth wrote…
>>
>> WTKTT, kudos to you for the fade clips from the air footage.
>> I have no clue if they are accurate or not.
They are accurate, counselor.
My only point was to say “Good on ya, WTKTT.” And I meant it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 13, 2014 at 9:48 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> Questions from a dummy????????
>>
>> The breaks in the Head cam video would they show start and stop times?
Yes.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If the head cam ran continuously with out being turned off and on why
>> the breaks in the 17 videos?
It is actually POSSIBLE that Aaron Hulburd could have been filming CONTINUOUSLY,
without choosing to STOP the camera… yet the result would still be MULTIPLE
filenames ( all starting with M2U prefix ) on the camera’s SD memory card.
Actually… a LOT of ‘Helmet Cameras’ operate that way.
Some will only record video in 5 minute ‘segments’ before creating another
separate filename on the memory card.
For example…
Review of HD 720P DVR Waterproof Helmet Camera
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GhqP17NQlYo
From the ‘Comments’ associated with this video…
———————————————————-
I bought one of those Chinese cheapy helmet cams off eBay.
It captures video files in 5 min segments (continuously).
———————————————————-
So anyone using a Helmet Camera like the one above could
shoot ‘continuously’… but they would still end up with a bunch
of 5 minutes video files ( each with its own filename ) on their
memory card.
We still do NOT know what kind of Helmet Camera Hulburd was using.
It’s pretty obvious it was NOT a ‘Chinese Cheapy’… but it still MAY have
been using the same technique of allowing ‘continuous filming’… but
still breaking everything out into multiple ‘filenames’ on the memory card.
We KNOW that the video ‘segment’ from Hulburd’s camera that was released
back in December and captured the MAYDAY traffic was 7 minutes and 49
seconds long.
That means that even if Hulburd’s camera was going to ‘break up’ continuous
filming into ‘segments’… those ‘segment lengths’ were probably more like a
default of 10 minutes each rather than just 5 like a ‘Chinese Cheapy’ would do.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Another gut check— was the video edited by the FS some time ago
>> to the 43 min. sections and that is what they released when requested.
>> Along with additional Redactions
>> When in fact there is a continues video of say 1 or 2 hours.
It’s possible.
See other comments about this below.
The footage that HAS been released shows that Aaron Hulburd was a true ‘videophile’.
He LOVED that Helmet Camera and he LOVED to USE it.
The footage released reveals that his default HABIT was to simply turn the camera ON
and LEAVE IT RUNNING until he had a very, very good reason to have to turn it OFF.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> It is hard to believe the person knowingly would have turned the video
>> off and on in segments especially with all the action and audio going on.
Yes.. .it is… but see new information above.
Even if he WAS filming ‘continuously’… most Helmet Cameras are still going to
‘break up’ that contiguous footage into multiple fixed-length ‘segments’ on
the memory card… each with their own filename.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Note the ride up the mountain in the ATV
>> If he was turning off and on why not off during that segment?
Exactly. He wasn’t doing that because that was not his HABIT.
His obvious HABIT when he thought something important was happening
was to turn it ON and then just LEAVE it on… no matter what.
As Marti said… THAT is what a ‘Helmet Camera’ is FOR.
It’s so you can capture EVERYTHING going on and not worry you are ‘missing’ anything.
If all you want to do is shoot short video clips… you can save yourself a LOT of money and just use a damn iPhone and then put it back in your pocket every time.
>> Bob Powers also said
>>
>> I contend there are segments edited out of the Video and that
>> is why we have 18 seperiate videos
I contend the same… but see above.
Even if AZF had just released 2 hours of absolutely contiguous video from
Hulburd’s Helmet Camera ( with no ‘cuts’ whatsoever )… we would STILL be
seeing a long list of separate M2Uxxxxx filenames because of the way most
of the Helmet Cameras STORE the video on the memory card.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Does this camera stamp date and time as most do?
Yes. It would also be timestamping the ‘segments’ of a continuous video.
>> Was that intentionally removed?
Yes.
Until we see, and can examine, M2Uxxxxx files from Hulburd’s camera that still have all the EXIF metadata contained in them… then no FOIA request has been successfully filled ( according to law ).
Very interesting, thanks!
I can understand why the camera would break the stream into pieces–write-speeds to the memory card. I would imagine that would vary depending on the resolution/format of the video it is capturing.
If it was doing that–breaking up long video runs into smaller segments, it still probably wouldn’t have really huge time-breaks between them, I would think.
But I haven’t watched that many headcam videos.
It would also mean that the whole long total video stream Aaron most likely would have been capturing would have been file-name sequenced in order.
That would mean that whoever was picking and choosing what to publish would still have had to rename those files in order to publish them with the names they have here. Or they wouldn’t have ended up with the names they have here.
Unless Aaron didn’t film anything between 2:30 PM and the Shrine Road sequence.
And thus didn’t have all that footage that included the Options Conversation/Whatever/Related Stuff.
The duration of the gap between video chunks would also, I would think, vary depending on the speed of the card it’s writing to.
Most people who shoot video shoot it on the fastest cards they can afford to get their hands on.
Marti— I am of the opinion if they made breaks as WTKTT says at 10 min. intervals
even the Breaks should no stop the filming for more than the blink of an eye.
That would be very frustrating if you were losing video you wanted.
What would explain the shorter Videos?
My opinion the M2U numbers assigned were done during the copy over process to U-tube. What dose M2U mean????? This was not the original videos so an assignment of numbers could have come as the segments were copied just my thoughts…… More questions not noted by the FS
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I am of the opinion if they made breaks as WTKTT says at
>> 10 min. intervals even the Breaks should no stop the filming
>> for more than the blink of an eye.
That’s correct… but there wouldn’t even be a ‘blink of an eye’.
The device is ‘caching’ the video and is able to break it up and
store it WHILE the filming continues with absolutely not one
frame ever missing from the final result.
Once you COMBINE all these separate video segment ‘files’ from the memory card back into one long contiguous MOVIE… you would NEVER know where the ‘breaks’ originally were. Unless that camera was an absolute piece of shit… you wouldn’t even see any little ‘flashes’ or ‘burps’ at the points where the video segments recombined.
That includes the audio. There wouldn’t even be an ‘pops’ or ‘clicks’, either.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> That would be very frustrating if you were losing video you wanted.
Exactly. If any ‘video camera’ was doing that to your movies… you would take it right back to the store and ask for your money back.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> What would explain the shorter Videos?
Only 4 possibilities, really…
1) Hulburd really was turning his camera on/off during that critical time on Shrine Road and ‘accidentally’ missed some of the most crucial moments.
2) Footage has been cut from the START of the actual M2Uxxxx file.
3) Footage has been cut from the END of the actual M2Uxxxx file.
4) Both 2 and 3 above.
Personally… I really doubt it was ‘door number 1’ up above.
It just wouldn’t match Hulburd’s HABIT for all the other videos we see.
The same instincts I had that KNEW there HAD to be more Hulburd footage ovrerall are simply saying “No way” he would have missed some of those important moments on Shrine Road… OR that he would not have used the camera for more than 2 hours between filming Todd Abel’s RECON flight… and then also missed all the other vehicles evacuating the Shrine area.
>> Bob Powers on Shrine road
>> My opinion the M2U numbers assigned were done during the
>> copy over process to U-tube. What dose M2U mean?????
As far as I know… the M2U prefix being used for video filenames indicates the device recording the video is one that is manufactured by Sony… or even if it is sold under a different brand, Sony would still be the OEM ( Original Equipment Manufacturer ).
M2U is also a known file extension that could also appear on the ends of files which defines its content. It is NOT normally used to identify video files. The M2U file extension is normally reserved for format files that are specific to the Maxthon Cloud Browser.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> This was not the original videos so an assignment of
>> numbers could have come as the segments were copied
Yes. It’s possible.
I’m gonna go all ‘geeky’ on ya here for a moment, Mr. Powers… but what you are about to see is that there IS more evidence ‘lurking’ in these videos.
Even though what has been released are not ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the originals and all the original DEVICE metadata has been purposely REMOVED from them… there are STILL some pieces of EXIF metadata that will survive most ‘conversions’ and ‘editing’.
One of those is the ‘original image size’, which can also give you a clue about the DEVICE that took the video.
MOST of the M2Uxxxxx video clips… even as they are sitting on Arizona Forestry’s YouTube channel… are showing a width/height dimension of 854 pixels wide by 480 pixels high.
854×480 is a pre-determined video dimension known as FWVGA
FWVGA = Full Wide Video Graphics Array.
However… any file in the AZF release that has had an ‘R’ added to the end of it ends up with a DIFFERENT video resolution.
All the files with an ‘R’ added seem to be in the 1280×720 format.
Also… the M2Uxxxx clips that have retained what appears to be the original FWVGA ( 854×480 ) formatting are also showing a sound codec handler named Lavf54.29.104…
…but the M2Uxxxx files in the release that have an ‘R’ added to the filename are simply showing a sound codec handler name of ‘Apple’.
So what the hell does all that mean?
It means that the ORIGINALS ( from Hulburd’s camera ) were probably shot with a device that uses the FWVGA 854×480 dimensions and the Lavf54.29.104 audio codec…
…but files that have been EDITED by US Forestry were edited on an
Apple computer and then ‘saved’ back to disk with an altered format
of 1280×720 and a reconvert on the audio track using Apple’s sound codec.
This does NOT mean that the ones still using the FWVGA 854×480 format and the Lav54.29.104 codec have NOT been altered.
They still might have been ‘truncated’ either at the start, or the end… or both… and still retained those settings of the orginal metadata.
It just means that it is perfectly obvious which files the US Forestry was editing manually and making actual CHANGES to the interior of the video before ‘saving’ the material back to disk… and that all these files they were EDITING were being done on an Apple computer.
Even if they hadn’t been adding that stupid ‘R’ letter to the ends of the filenames they are ADMITTING to altering… we would still have been able to tell which ones they were monkeying with on their Apple Computer.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
I am still checking on that. Stay tuned.
I still maintain that the US Forestry Service has still NOT lawfully complied with any legal FOIA request because we are not seeing the actual EXIF DEVICE information in these files.
You are allowed to make redactions and claim ‘exemptions’ under the FOIA rules… but you are still supposed to deliver ‘essentially identical’ copies of the material you have in your possession.
Removing MOST of the original EXIF data is still a no-no, legally speaking.
That answered a lot thanks
One question if the camera was not making files why all the M2U files?
My humble brain still says they were added during the edit of the original Video to make the Files look in sequence which they are not as we are missing what are in the breaks.
Humble and simple mind M2Uxxxxxxx ME TO YOU #######
Edited by some one and sent to someone with the number sequence.
To Simple Right _________ oh well????????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 14, 2014 at 12:09 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> One question if the camera was not making files
>> why all the M2U files?
>>
>> My humble brain still says they were added during
>> the edit of the original Video to make the Files look
>> in sequence which they are not as we are missing
>> what are in the breaks.
Well… to entertain the scenario that we really are looking at separate ‘chopped out’ clips from what was once maybe just ONE or TWO ( long ) ‘M2Uxxxxx’ video files… all you have to do is imagine how ANYONE would go about accomplishing that.
Aaron Hulburd himself tells KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that there was at least one point where he had turned his camera off for 2-3 minutes.
I now believe ( and I think Marti agrees ) that what he might be telling Yowell there refers directly to that moment at the end of the original 7 minute and 49 second MAYDAY footage when Hulburd has put his Helmet on the top of his truck… and then appears to reach up and turn it OFF for a moment.
THAT could have been the moment when he was ‘changing batteries’, and it might have taken those 2-3 minutes he was telling Yowell about.
Other than THOSE 2 or 3 minutes Hulburd actually tells Yowell about… Hulburd says he ‘recorded ALL of it’… and is obviously STILL trying to record everything that is happening even to the point where we hear him telling Yowell about the 2-3 minutes he had it OFF.
My point here is that Hulburd himself is heard telling Yowell he had turned his camera off at least ONCE in this timeframe… but for no more than 2-3 minutes.
That means… for sure and certain.. that there would have been at least TWO ‘M2Uxxxxxx’ filenames there on his memory card.
So now imagine you are some ‘tech’ at US Forestry and Mike Dudley and Tom Harbour ( who signed the FOIA letter John Dougherty received from USFS ) have just told you exactly what parts of the overall video are NOT going to be released… and it is now YOUR job to ‘make this look good’.
Of COURSE you would simply see that the longer files all begin with M2U prefix plus a sequential numbering scheme.
So whatever CUTS you end up with to fulfill the ‘assignment’… of COURSE you would simply take it upon yourself to follow the existing ‘M2U’ prefix and sequential numbering scheme.
Again… I am NOT saying it went down like this… but if it DID… then it makes perfect sense that whoever was tasked with ‘chopping up’ the originals would stick with the M2U + number naming scheme.
One more thing that might be neither here nor there… but is still ‘interesting’.
Whoever was tasked with REDACTING and EDITING these Hulburd movie files up that at the US Forestry Service really knew what they were doing and how to use whatever video editing tools they were using.
One of the PROOFS of that is the moment at + 2 minutes and 53 seconds into video M2U00266R when that ‘white pickup’ is coming out of the driveway towards the spot where Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are standing on Shrine Road.
That is the moment when the US Forestry Service decided they needed to MASK the FACE of the citizen driving that white pickup truck.
They simply used a ‘floating pixelation’ BLUR circle to mask his face as he pulled out of the driveway and Hulburd filmed him talking with Jason Clawson ( in the white helmet ).
Someone had to ‘apply’ this BLUR circle to the man’s face MANUALLY… as the video played.
Sometimes that is really tricky to do… and you have to be really GOOD at it to get it totally right.
Well… whoever was doing that ‘Face BLUR’ for the US Forestry Service was, in fact, VERY good at it.
I checked the entire sequence frame by frame because I knew that sometimes even a single ‘frame’ can be missed and you would still get to see the person’s face.
Whoever was doing that ‘BLUR OUT’ for USFS never missed a beat.
There is even a moment when he/she STOPPED the BLURRING because Jason Clawson’s back was now to the camera and was successfully masking the driver’s face… but there is moment even with Clawson blocking the face when the driver simply LEANS FORWARD for a few frames and his face emerges from Clawson’s left side.
Well… they caught that TOO.
Whoever was doing the BLUR OUT caught that one-or-two frame moment when the guy’s face became visible and they added some BLUR OUT to THOSE frames, too.
So they were GOOD. They didn’t make some of the mistakes others do when attempting this ‘pixelation’ mask-out on someone’s face.
>> Bob Powers also asked…
>>
>> Humble and simple mind M2Uxxxxxxx
>> ME TO YOU #######
>> Edited by some one and sent to someone with
>> the number sequence.
>>
>> To Simple Right _________ oh well????????
The ‘M2U’ movie filename prefix IS a known, valid naming convention for some video devices.
Example: Just Google ‘M2U00261’ yourself and you will see what I mean. TONS of ‘Google hits’ are going to appear and the are all valid VIDEOS on various places like YouTube, VIMEO, WatchToday, and other common video sharing sites.
So there ARE, in fact, a LOT of ‘devices’ out there using the M2U file naming prefix and a LOT of people are using them to shoot videos.
Also… M2U is a known acronym for an online service called ‘Movies To You’. I don’t think that has anything to do with Aaron Hulburd or his camera, though.
Interesting and Thanks—- I dropped the last in as a chuckle to a geek …
From M2U… thanks.
It’s going to take some humor to get through this latest round of bullshit ‘brought to you by’ the USFS and Arizona Forestry.
And, also, I think it’s premature to assume at this point that Aaron’s camera was doing that short-segment “chunking” thing.
I don’t know as much about higher end cams like the GoPro, but, as I was writing what I wrote above about Rance’s narrative, I started thinking about that camera they used for the Air2Air videos. It’s the Contour, one of those “Best 10s” in the article.
It was capable of recording the long videos in that Air2Air collection without any gaps/chunking. So I guess it depends on the camera’s ability to write to a card continuously as fast as the card can be written to without buffering.
Personally, given the huge popularity of the GoPro for this sort of stuff, I’m guessing it can do that also.
So, I guess, until we have access to some version of the “original videos,” with their camera metadata, it’s really not possible to know if Aaron was using a camera capable of truly “continuously recording” or one that has to write to the card in smaller pieces.
Don’t know if I can find out what make the camera is but am working with my
confections will see if I can get something for us. Along shot but maybe..
Thanks. It would be really helpful to know what camera Aaron was using.
Marti… see a longer post above.
There ARE some clues here to help us.
All of the M2Uxxxxx files released by US Forestry that do NOT have an ‘R’ on the end of the filename are all showing what appears to be some of the original EXIF data.
The combination of the M2Uxxxxx file naming format ( which might mean it has to be a Sony-based Camera? ), the FWVGA 854×480 default video resolution, AND the fact that the device might be using the Lav54.29.104 audio codecs might all help tell us exactly what DEVICE Aaron Hulburd was using.
Also… if this device BELONGS to the Prescott National Forest… you would think it should be easy to find a purchase order since you and I ( and a lot of other taxpayers ) actually PAID for it.
That’s also what blows my mind in all of this.
All of this back and forth… and gamesmanship… and struggle to simply uncover what is supposed to already be PUBLIC information is basically just ‘your tax dollars at work’.
We are NOT dealing with Exxon Mobile, here.
Every single person involved with both the Yarnell Hill Fire AND both of the investigations… and every single person we are having to deal with now at AZF and USFS… are CIVIL SERVANTS.
Their paychecks ALL come from US.
Someone needs to remind them of that fact.
Joy and I attended the local town meeting last night. They did say they are in the process of creating a memorial for the 19 Fallen. When the committee meets for that we hope to be there. We would also like to see a memorial for those who have succumbed since the fire. The local Fire EMT said they have been taking in the dead at an average of two a month since the fire. Well Joy has counted 33 dead since the fire and is still counting. Now considering that there are only between 2 and 3 hundred homes, many empty or just used as a second residence, that is a lot of people. The population is only 649 by the 2010 census and has not changed a lot– 645 2014, Now we see how that disaster not only killed 19 good firemen but also cut short many lives since. Stress from loss of home is one of the greatest stressors one can endure. Heart attack, lung diseases, cancer deaths, COPD are all exacerbated —especially in the elderly. They are much more affected by this–one lady Joy knew well died within two weeks after her home was destroyed. Both Joy and I have felt the effects on our breathing and she too has been diagnosed with terminal factors at her young age of 42. So there is much to be considered in a situation that could easily been handled the first day, yet was not.
Joy confronted the local new fire chief for Yarnell. We had been getting word from people that he had said he wanted us arrested for hiking people up above the site where the 19 died. We only hike 100 percent legal, not directly to the fence but on the mountain above that place. He said he had no comment when Joy confronted him. Anyway it did bring on a cursory investigation of his background qualifications. Best we could find he only has had EMT experience and never has fought any kind of fire. Perhaps he has but we haven’t found that information. We wonder how those fire chief’s get their qualifications. Well for me I like Dr. Ted Putnam’s qualifications–11 years smoke jumper puts him in the realm of those who know their business–and he is damn good at investigating fires. Whew he did teach me a lot and humbles my fire fighting experience when years ago my Dad and I would contain lightening strikes with shovels, pick and axe.
I do hope you enjoy the new photos and get some more clarity– That Marti is so good at taking those photos apart and connecting the dots–and thanks Bob Powers and the Murray Taylor’s of the world. If this fire chief does not pan out I hope we get one of those qualified like you fellows.
Say I give much credit to Joy. She has worked almost non-stop on this and has come up with evidence that I am sure certain people wince at. One government investigator wrote “Oh Shit ” from evidence she once sent him. We did not know what that meant but was likely an apropos comment.
And about Sonny–I too wandered around after the fire–we lost our apartment number 15 at the Oak Park Motel shortly after the fire and that was directly related to the fire. I was a homeless wanderer in Montana for a time just sleeping in my Jeep Wagoneer. I hitch hiked from near Salt Lake City after the Jeep blew up, then wound up back here with Joy in Yarnell. This fire has had its toll on all of us and we do wonder why these things are allowed to progress to the point that it has killed so many young firemen and caused plenty of pain and consternation for the residents as well. So yes, we will not cast those men to the wind– but we will continue to learn every little detail and truth in this debacle and this we have to believe will save some good ones from another disaster such as we have seen here.
Joy and I do have blazers that say CHANGE THE WAY THEY FIGHT FIRES on the back and 6-30-13 on the front.
Thanks to you all for your concerns and work–the thing that honors the 19 heroes and all those in the fire fighting profession.
Thanks, Sonny, and you are so welcome.
It would be interesting to corral the data that could compare the Yarnell fatality rates before the fire vs after the fire. My mom is 93 and I see how relatively “fragile” she is. Which is way more than I am, turning 63 this month, and finding myself way more “fragile” than I was just five or so years ago. That was one of the things that struck me on this fire–how so many elders were left at risk from it. And, definitely, Joy, at her relatively young age, shouldn’t be having the health issues she is having.
And, as I was watching the recently released videos, how Aaron and the guys around him were coughing so hard.
So sorry to hear of what you lost after the fire. So inspired by what you continued to do, continuing to press on after everything.
Interesting about the blazers. I have, on my right wrist, the white bracelet from Julieanne Ashcraft that says “Be Better” and “Yarnell 19.” The one our Vice President wears. The one that inspires me, every day, to “Be Better.”
And yes, we will continue to plug for every little detail this fire, and the 19 that it killed, are trying to speak to us.
yeah! it worked!
Thu, Nov 13, 2014 at 9:19 AM
the Yarnell library pcs are down today in 15 minutes the technician will be here so this will be quick than we are off to Dan the Garden guy to get some free garden plants to make a memorial garden for the 19 and the many losses in Yarnell/Peeples since the fire today. Now, the Yarnell Meeting I did get snarks believe it or not replies that “you are a Congress women—WHY YOU AT YARNELL MEETING?” Thank God we are one another’s listed caregivers to wash their comment out…same folks that hugged me and greeted me with a sworded tongue and piercing death look than today looking to hug. You learn who is FOR REALS in this town when you attend a town meeting with government folks & some cronies there too. What is funny too because I canceled my subscription. To what? Long ago to other peoples “issues”…I do not even let it phase me. They are the ones that want to move forward I reckon. I also learned 2 had us privately investigated and they think I am into real estate. never. OH MY! WAS THEIR PRIVATE INVESTIGATOR “GOOGLE”??? There is 8 Joy Collura in the USA and 5 of my maiden name so I am sure the only thing before this fire I was online for was HikeArizona…when I dabbled in the limelight stuff you might see me but I think I requested Tony Tarantino/Pacino family to omit any public information of me in the mid 2000s in regards to my culinary ice art photos or online network communications. I was not an online person much except to communicate to here and there folks. I mainly did my hiking adventures and just did the housewife thing so ohhh what a turn out on your PI crap. Anyways, gotta run…tech is here. Write more on the Yarnell meeting soon and other new information.
Now it is 3:50 and ten minute to closing and I sent anyone I had on my email area the new information we got today via new photos via photos off 2 IPOD’s and camera Olympus fe-5010 12 megapixel from the same person wants to be unnamed due to local politics and to help on P6300649 since I know for fact that answer it is the prison Lewis Crew with Fred Andrews standing. The rest of the pics MARTI REED came to mind…look forward to her looking at people and trucks and such and her feedback…THESE ARE PROPERLY TIME STAMPED. about time.
Already more photos are in midst of delivery to Sonny’s snail mail.
oh and my hiking page w w w . zazzle . c o m /congress_arizona*
otherwise I dont do internet
Will look for that, thanks!
And, yeah, I’ve had trouble posting, even when doing it correctly. Learned to copy the post before posting it, just in case.
I think the site is overwhelmed today, with posters and readers. Which is, all in all, a good thing.
wow, this is my 28th attempt so before writing it all to have it not copy/paste
TEST POST
As I sais back on the 18th there was a whole Video out there with a lot of information on it I was told of some of that info which was copied from Radio traffic which would put Marsh in a bad light. also the argument.
On the 13th of Oct. people were viewing a full video in Prescott some of the info out of that was some Family members were upset with what was shown. ( don’t know now what Families saw it or just 1)
There has been some specific info that came out of that showing that triggered the info I got about it and released here. Some I was deeply concerned about and would not bring up here for the sake of the Families that check here.
So all I am saying is yes there is more than we got A lot more and I knew people were viewing it before it was released as john had also found out it existed. Facts that are right in front of us…
In this case, the simplest explanation does seem to be that there is more out there. It explains why informal reports such as yours a few weeks ago, which have normally been pretty reliable, in this case did not reflect of the substance of the released videos that we have seen over the last week.
Reply to SR post on November 13, 2014 at 1:45 pm
>> SR said…
>>
>> In this case, the simplest explanation does seem to be that there
>> is more out there. It explains why informal reports such as yours
>> a few weeks ago, which have normally been pretty reliable, in this
>> case did not reflect of the substance of the released videos that
>> we have seen over the last week.
SR… I believe you may be ‘spot on’.
The people who were initially reporting what THEY saw in the footage might have been actually looking at ALL of it… and that’s where the ‘could be damaging to Marsh’ statements were coming from…
…but those people may have had no idea that USFS was going to REMOVE those very parts of the footage that related to Eric Marsh before ‘releasing’ the stuff.
It was actually ‘Robert the Second’ ( RTS ) who gave the first ‘heads up’ about the possibility of more Hulburd footage about to be released. RTS put the total at 42-43 minutes. He also said he heard about it from TWO firefighters who had been ‘engaged in Yarnell that day’.
I am in NO WAY suggesting that RTS should reveal his sources… but let’s just say that if they were any combination of ‘The Prescott Three’ ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell )… then it is more than likely all THREE of those men were fully aware of what was in ALL of Aaron’s video footage.
So perhaps they really were thinking ( and telling RTS ) that if everything THEY knew to be in the footage was released… that it would, in fact, be very damaging to Eric Marsh ( Such as perhaps some radio capture of the alleged argument Marsh had with Jesse Steed ).
Whoever was passing that ‘might be damaging to Marsh’ information on to RTS some weeks ago might be just as astonished as we are to see what was ACTUALLY released on Saturday.
In other words… they thought some stuff that THEY knew was in the material was going to be ‘in the public release’… and now it just isn’t.
All I can say is very, very close. The gag orders are keeping many of these real and down to earth Fire Fighters from speaking out or releasing what they have.
They want the facts out there as we do. The question is how many FS employees will end up possibly in court in Law Suits over Yarnell?
After the Humbling call I received yesterday I am dead set on finding out what is on this Video for the Families and for there children who deserve compensation for what occurred. I will not rest till I know the answers for them and there children even those who did not File. There are people out there that read this Please speak up for all the families who lost love ones
they deserve your support. Not your silence. They will live with this for ever.
At 9 Years old I remember my fathers Casket being moved from a train depot to a train we were switching to. Others will for get over time but families have memories that are imbedded for live pictures that never go away that reoccur in memories as vivid as a Picture.
They deserve to know the facts If you have them it is time to tell the FS to stop this crazy game. There is no self worth in hiding behind a government Gag Order. Let the cards fall where they fall and deal with it.
And really, I can understand what you have written before about the retributive consequences that can come down on the heads of people caught in these kinds of situations.
And how devastating that can be. That it’s often just not worth it.
But if anything, this whole clusterfuck (there I did it) has shown us just how much the USFS holds these employees and their families in contempt, and isn’t going to do a thing to uncomfortably protect the lives and well-being of their employees, their families, their friends and their loved ones.
This whole thing just shouts, from the USFS to their employees/families “Fuck You.”
And I’m including in my definition of USFS “employees” the Granite Mountain Hotshots, all legalities be damned.
They were Federal Interagency Hotshots, a Federal National Resource.
The only difference was who would have been paying their salary that day.
And even if there was an argument, and even if Eric and Granite Mountain made a fatal mistake, I still stand by my earlier assessment that if this fire had been properly analyzed and resourced by AZF, and if it, therefore, had been properly strategized and tactics-ized,
… instead of the debacle it was, threatening all kinds of lives…
…Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there all day to eventually hang themselves, without anybody (but maybe Gary Cordes–and what good did THAT do?) even knowing where they were or what they were doing.
These guys are going to be in court anyway, if the families don’t settle, and it seems that they’re determined not to settle.
Is it possible also that there’s now another gag order of some kind on them as the lawsuits are being developed?
Also noted there is no reason for breaks in videos 263, 264 and 265 They should be continuous
as the video is capturing the hurried movement of equipment out of the fire. Each break has a different start than the stop pictures this was just before GM call for deployment.
Again why would the operator stop and start here as it should have been continuous????
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 13, 2014 at 1:45 pm
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> why would the operator stop and start here as it
>> should have been continuous????
Exactly. There is no ‘logical’ reason why he would have even been bothering to ‘stop and restart’ the camera during those hectic moments… especially since all the other footage proves that Hulburd’s normal habit was to simply ‘leave the camera running’ most of the time.
In the videos… following the deployment… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell asks Hulburd when they heard the actual MAYDAY traffic. Hulburd wasn’t sure of the exact minute count since then but he then told Yowell “I recorded ALL of it”.
He then mentions that he ‘turned it off for maybe 2 or 3 minutes’ sometime AFTER the deployment sequence. That could have been the ‘break’ between when he set his Helmet Camera on the top of his truck right after the MAYDAY traffic… and then turned it on again 2-3 minutes later as he then was following Yowell west ( on foot ) on Shrine Road.
At no time does Hulburd SAY he ‘wasn’t sure I got it all’ or that he was ‘stopping and starting’ his camera prior to ( or during ) the MAYDAY calls.
He says the opposite. He SAYS “I recorded ALL of that”.
There also was absolutely no reason for him to turn his Camera OFF just at the same moment they were all saying HELLO to Frisby and Brown as they drove up from the Youth Camp in their Polaris Ranger… yet AZFS would seem to want us to believe that’s what he did instead of then going on to capture that 2 minute ‘intel report’ from Frisby and Brown that we know took place right then.
Right after Frisby and Brown pull up… and they say hello… and
Captain Trueheart Brown says
“Yea… we were back there tryin’ to stop idiots from burnin’ themselves up’…
…the video abruptly ENDS.
It doesn’t even show the little ‘jiggle’ that you would normally see when someone actually does reach up or over to turn off a ‘Helmet Cam’.
The video just CUTS OFF there… as if done with a piece of software.
And maybe the only reason he put the camera on the roof and turned it off for two or three minutes was to change the battery or the card..
Bingo.
He would have probably been running on the initial batteries all the way from the time he first arrived and ( like any good videophile would do ) immediately started recording. ( Todd Abel’s radio traffic from Ranger 58 during his second recon mission ).
Later on… he knew he had just captured ALL of the MAYDAY traffic, didn’t even bother to turn it off while he moved his truck… and right after they moved the trucks to that slightly safer spot… he knew a LOT more was about to come down in the next minutes/hours and he better have fresh batteries.
I have always thought he was just pausing at that moment and putting his helmet on top of his truck in order to fulfill KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s verbal request that they better get another handheld radio fired up so they wouldn’t miss any traffic…
…but now I would believe he was ALSO taking that moment to put a fresh set of batteries in his Helmet Camera there on the top of the truck.
Exactly.
If I was “the operator” in that kind of situation, there is no way I would bother with starting and stopping the camera, all things considered. There would be NO REASON to.
Capturing all that’s going on without hassling with buttons and stuff is the reason for using a headcam.
Which, therefore, means the file naming is mostly irrelevant.
Those file names are not the names of the original files, but they’re the names of the pieces of video someone at USFS chopped out of the original files.
Are we all starting to get that WTF moment????????????????
Actually, I’m more LOLOLOLing than WTF-ing right now.
WTK said the reason they do this kind of throwing stuff out there in a big hurry is to “get in front of the story.”
The problem with doing that is that, if you’re not careful, it can turn around and bite you in the butt.
They’re definitely assuming everybody is just getting the story from the MSM.
They’re not factoring in the possibility that there are just enough folks paying attention to be able to out-think them.
I was wandering around some of the relevant Facebook pages this morning.
One of the moms said something along the lines of, “I dissect every video they put out there.”
So Bob, a question.
In your experience, has anything like this, with a federal agency obstructing justice (including, as we are seeing here, something that looks like evidence tampering==which is a felony) on something like a state legally authoritative investigation, ever kicked in something like an FBI investigation?
No
I am not even sure with this being a non Federal Fire that the FBI
would ever get involved OSHA would probably be the first step
State level if information was with held from them.
Again this was a state fire no Federal Employee hurt or a Fatality
so the only thing the FS is doing is protecting their Employees
who were there and were involved in any supervisory capacity or the Incident its self which could stretch to BR and Air Attack
That’s the only reason on gods green earth they are not releasing Written Statements and audio/video they have that was in the control of there employees.
So again I doubt that the FBI would even be involved.
Court records requests are a different story if the law suit continues both sides will get all the records and videos in original format. I guarantee you they have them or are getting them now……..With this little surprise being sprung on the Families Lawyer.
who keeps bringing this up?
the FACT is both Bob and myself and Sonny heard information and some reached the public and who knows on the rest but I do back up Bob Powers on this topic and who keeps bringing it up…
The ones who need to come out is the freaking RAW footage of these videos and so many more…Bob is a retired guy listening to others feedback just like us because our names are out there and that is it but if we were not getting the information or Bob Powers—it would be fed to someone…just how life works
Thanks Joy and Sonny People are Hearing us The Nay Sayers and the State and FS
are trying to cover it up as fast as they can I think they are to late now.
Marti and WTKTT
Questions from a dummy????????
How many minuets or hours dose a Head cam operate continuously?
Dose it show accurate date and time?
The breaks in the Head cam video would they show start and stop times?
If the head cam ran continuously with out being turned off and on why the breaks in the 17 videos?
Another gut check— was the video edited by the FS some time ago to the 43 min. sections and that is what they released when requested. Along with additional Redactions
When in fact there is a continues video of say 1 or 2 hours.
It is hard to believe the person knowingly would have turned the video off and on in segments especially with all the action and audio going on. Note the ride up the mountain in the ATV
If he was turning off and on why not off during that segment?
I contend there are segments edited out of the Video and that is why we have 18 seperiate videos
With out time stamps we are left guessing what is between each segment.
Dose this camera stamp date and time as most do? Was that intentionally removed?
The FS is giving every one a piece of the whole from what I see………………
Mr. Powers… I am still looking at the material… and even just now John Dougherty has posted a new article on IM’s home page saying USFS has finally actually responded to HIS original FOIA request.
This story is still obviously a ‘moving target’… but with regards to part of your question(s)…
Aaron Hulburd himself says to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, in one of the new videos, that he had been recording (quote) “ALL of it”… but then he is also heard saying…”but I turned it off for 2or 3 minutes”.
That means there SHOULD be multiple files that begin with the M2U filename prefix. How many is still the question.
More later
Yes I remember that..
Bob~
It’s going to require metadata to go any further forward than where we are at now. Having to look at the videos via youtube just doesn’t give us the kind of file/camera information we need in order to begin to even know what kind of camera(s) is(are) being used and what their capabilities are.
And I’m seriously not very familiar with headcams and gopros and such. I don’t even have a smartphone, I AM in that camp of people who have ancient “candybar” phones.
I agree with what WTKTT wrote a bit down below in his response to my long rambling conjecturing that all we can do now is get clearer about exactly what we DO have now.
But I think we’ve done a pretty good job of mapping out our questions and cognitive dissonances and further thoughts.
It’s going to depend on what we see when we look at the files John has obtained. HOPEFULLY they contain some kind of metadata tracking back to the cameras used and the timestamps.
I fear they are the same as what was released by the State………..
If they are ( identical to the dog and pony show that appeared on Arizona Forestry’s webiste last Saturday )… then they cannot be considered a VALID fulfillment of a legal FOIA request.
They would NOT be ‘byte-for-byte’ copies of the material that originally entered ( and remains in ) their possession.
You can ‘redact’ electronic media… but still leave the original metadata in the file. No problem.
Until we can see the original metadata in the files… then they are NOT actually ‘original copies’ of the material.
And I have a question back.
What is the source of the idea that Aaron’s headcam video sequence was 43 minutes long?
In Johns letter he received the FS states that (43 Min. of Video)
That was why all my other Questions.
I think we are being hand fed and they have never said why the breaks or 18 seperiate pieces of Video or 21.
They left a lot out of the explanations
like did they only copy excerpts from the Full Video to u-tube?
Again to me the Fish smell is very strong??????
They only explained what they did to what they sent not what was there before
The final 43 they are releasing. Wording requests can be used to manipulate what they will send.. I guess I have no trust any more in what we are being fed,
OK. Thanks, that helps.
I was wondering if the “43 minutes” meant what “somebody” “knew” was the total in Aaron’s original collection or the total that was being published.
So he really could have shot a whole lot more video. Quite a bit of a lot.
That’s what keeps the Question brain on WTF mode.
So yep.
Just had lunch with Terra. Told her
“I will try to not keep talking about this but this thing is so bad we seriously can’t find the right adjectives for it but long strings of four letter words. Truly.”
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 13, 2014 at 11:16 am
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> What is the source of the idea that Aaron’s headcam video
>> sequence was 43 minutes long?
The first ‘heads up’ on this particular discussion forum about there being ‘new’ Hulburd footage that was going to be between 42 and 43 minutes long came from ‘Robert The Second’ ( RTS ) on October 11.
That was also when ‘ADOSH’ entered the picture for this story because RTS said that his sources were contacted by ADOSH about all this ( and not by AZF or USFS ). That is still probably true… as RTS first reported.
It was on this ‘Chapter 9’ version of this ongoing discussion and here is RTS’s original message reprinted from down below…
————————————————————————–
On October 11, 2014 at 8:28 pm, Robert the Second said…
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
————————————————————–
Right after RTS posted that ‘heads up’… Bob Powers replied and
basically confirmed that he had been hearing the same thing… and
the same ’43 minutes’ information…
————————————————————–
On October 13, 2014 at 7:51 am, Bob Powers said…
My understanding it is the full 43 min. head cam recording no cut no touch up what was recorded at the time that was not released with the first portion.
I have heard this is the Raw footage. Until we can see and hear it none of us should put a final stamp of approval on it as factual evidence.
The real fact is that it dose exist.
———————————————————–
The footage that was released Saturday is NOT ‘raw footage’ in any way.
It can’t even be considered ‘original copies’ of the material since all
the original EXIF metadata has been removed.
There is also nothing in the Saturday release that I would say could be construed as ‘very damaging to Eric Marsh’.
It tells us that AZF and USFS have, in fact, been ‘hiding’ important evidence from both the families of the men that died AND from the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident… and it tells us that not only did a high level fire commander that day ( Gary Cordes ) knew exactly what they were doing and where they were going to arrive… and even implemented his own ‘plan’ to help them get out that way…
…but the footage released Saturday doesn’t really tell us anything more than we already knew about Eric Marsh’s decisions than we already know.
If the footage that RTS was reporting HE heard about had that kind of evidence in it… and his sources were saying so… then it looks like whatever THEY were seeing in the new Hulburd footage has been REMOVED from what actually went public on Saturday.
Just a wild thought here…
I am not even remotely asking RTS to ‘name his sources’… but let’s just say that the ‘two firefighters’ he mentions happen to be any combination of ‘The Prescott three’ ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
These guys have always been ‘thick as thieves’ ( they all work toegther on the Prescott National Forest ).
It is HIGHLY likely that all three of these men had been able to see ALL of what Aaron Hulburd shot with his camera(s) that day.
Totally unredacted… raw footage.
So perhaps they were reporting to RTS that if what THEY knew was in that footage was going to ‘go public’… that it would, in fact, be ‘very damaging to Marsh’ ( Such as… perhaps capturing the alleged argument with Steed ).
Maybe the two FFs that RTS was hearing from simply did not know that the USFS was going to TAKE OUT those very parts of the videos that they knew were in the material and would be ‘very damaging to Marsh’ if it was all released.
Maybe these two FFs that RTS heard from are just as astonished right now as anyone else about what is now MISSING from Hulburd’s published footage.
WTKTT,
FYI to your point above, the two WFF I referred to on October 11th were NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’) that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet seen these latest video releases. When I told him NONE of them had any radio transmissions from Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY had Marsh radio transmissions in them. No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
None of this surprises me. The FS is well known (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable. And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports” most times.
Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …” NOT October 8th
Reply to Robert the Second’s post on
November 13, 2014 at 8:52 pm
>> Robert the Second ( RTS ) said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> The two WFF I referred to on October 11th were
>> NONE of ‘the Prescott three’ as you refer to them.
Thank you! It really was just a ‘wild guess’.
I still think it is more than likely, however, that Prescott National Forest employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are all fully aware of EVERYTHING that Aaron filmed that day. They are all ‘thick as thieves’ there at PNF and more than likely they all SAW his footage before he even gave it to whoever it was he actually gave it to in the first place following the tragedy.
Actually.. he obviously did NOT give his material directly to Arizona Forestry or the newly formed SAIT… but went through his own PNF / USFS work channels.
We still simply just don’t know the WHO ( Sic: NAMES ) or what the ‘chain of possesion’ was on his ‘evidence’.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Today, I did talk to one of the original two WFF (the
>> one who noted some footage ‘damaging to Marsh’)
>> that I referred to October 8th, and he had not yet
>> seen these latest video releases. When I told him
>> NONE of them had any radio transmissions from
>> Marsh, he was definitely ‘astonished’ and said the
>> video clip(s) he saw/heard month(s) ago CLEARLY
>> had Marsh radio transmissions in them.
Well… technically… since the USFS chose to basically re-release that original footage from December in THIS new ‘evidence dump’ as well… it is, in fact, true that THESE new videos DO have ‘Marsh in them’… but it’s just the same “Our escape route has been cut off” and “We are burning out around ourselves” and “I’ll give you a call when we are under the shelters” traffic from Marsh that was first heard back in December.
I wouldn’t call THOSE transmissions ‘damaging to Marsh’.
So just to be clear… we are talking about your source referring to some OTHER heretofore ‘unheard’ transmissions… correct?
THOSE ( if they exist ) are definitely NOT included in this latest ‘evidence dump’. Other than the same December “We are deploying” traffic… there really aren’t any identifiable transmissions from Marsh in THIS latest release.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> No clarification whether over TAC or A/G on this point.
I still believe the evidence points to there being some kind of ’emergency’ transmissions on BOTH of these channels that day.
We can HEAR the ones that went out over A/G in the Hulburd videos… but we still haven’t heard the one ( or more? ) that might have preceded those calls but went over TAC.
Even Rance Marquez, in his ADOSH interview, is recalling hearing SOME kind of ’emergency’ talk over the radio BEFORE he testifies to hearing that first “We are in front of the flaming front’ MAYDAY call from Jesse Steed over the A/G channel.
Marquez even goes so far as to say he believes it was something about someone trying to do some ‘sound location’ between Marsh and the Helicopters BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> None of this surprises me. The FS is well known
>> (since the 1938 Mann Gulch Fire) in fatality fire
>> investigations, for ‘establishing a conclusion first and
>> then fitting the “facts” to fit that conclusion.’ It’s
>> maddening and unfortunate, but very predictable.
>> And yet they refer to them as “Factual Reports”
>> most times.
In case you haven’t noticed… I ( me, personally ) don’t give a rat’s ass what either Arizona Forestry or their parent company ( US Forestry Service ) has EVER done ‘in the PAST.
I want them to ‘come clean’ on THIS incident.
As soon as possible.
This is a seminal moment for them( no matter how they have handled things in the past ) and I ( and a whole lot of other people ) want to see them all put on their big-boy shorts and do the RIGHT thing this time.
It’s not hard.
Just tell the TRUTH.
For men who pride themselves on ‘duty, honor, courage, character’ and all that jazz… I haven’t seen much of ANY of that from them so far. All I see ( so far ) is a bunch of guys trying to protect their own jobs and cover their own asses. Not much to ‘respect’ there.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> Clarification point: “that I referred to October 11th …”
>> NOT October 8th
Copy that.
One more thing…
Obviously I am NOT going to ask you to query your sources about anything because I know you, yourself, are deciding how and when to participate in the PUBLIC part of this ongoing fiasco…
…but can you at least ‘throw us a bone’ and give us even a HINT as to what the NATURE of the information would be that your source is saying would be ‘damaging to Eric Marsh’?
Is your source trying to say that there WAS some kind of argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed ( just as SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley said multiple witnesses have alleged )… and that Marsh was beating Steed over the head with all kinds of reasons to make the risky move until Steed finally just ‘gave in’…. or something?
One thing that just jumped into my mind.
I’ve taken WAY more videos classes than I’ve taken videos.
We’re ALWAYS taught to take MORE video than you may think you may need. It’s far easier and less time-consuming to trim stuff out than have less than you need in order to “tell” your story.
Just quickly looked at a gopro on Amazon (I have to get ready to for lunch with my daughter…..)
It’s not the newest, so it would be comparable to what Aaron might have been using
Rechargeable lithium battery lasts for 2.5 hours of continuous recordeing
On a 32 GB card it will record 8+ hours of recording
Typical avg numbers:
1080p – 4 hours
960p – 5 hours
720p – 4 hours
“GoPro HD Helmet Hero”
http://www.amazon.com/GoPro-CHDHH-001-HD-Helmet-Hero/dp/B002VA56I8
Second try for this post.
So it looks like video length is only limited by battery power and/or card size.
Not if you carry spare batteries and cards.
Something tells me Aaron Hulburd ( a true-blue videophile ) had BOTH.
LOL! I was kind of thinking you might say something like that.
If I had that camera, I’d carry plenty of batteries and plenty of memory card space. No problem!
I do that with my mere Rebel.
Always be prepared!
It is also perfectly obvious from watching the new footage that HAS been released that Aaron Hulburd’s default ( and habitual ) behavior was to simply just ‘leave the camera running’.
If this guy was at all concerned with battery life when using the thing… there are PLENTY of places in all these video clips where he could have turned it off to save some battery.
He didn’t He wasn’t worrying about that.
THAT is what makes what some of these ‘cuts’ between some of these videos so hard to understand.
The HABIT we are seeing ( in the footage as a whole ) is someone who just leaves it running once it is on and doesn’t really worry about it.
As you yourself said… when you think you are capturing something important… any true ‘videophile’ knows it’s better to capture ALL of it and then just do ‘editing’ later rather than ‘miss’ something while you were filming.
I think Hulburd knew that… and that’s why I’m having a hard time believing that he was starting/stopping his camera so much like USFS and Arizona Forestry would seem to be trying to make us believe.
Regarding the various kinds of cameras in the realm of what Aaron was probably using:
From March 2013 The Independent
“The 10 Best Action Cameras”
http://www.independent.co.uk/life-style/gadgets-and-tech/features/the-10-best-action-cameras-8542989.html
So we have at a minimum 2 to 2 1/2 hrs. of Battery time/ Video with out changing the Battery out and 8 hrs. possible Video with new batteries .
Is that not interesting. Why turn it off except to change Batteries or your done.
With all that was happening why would any one turn the camera on and off
More WTF moments As an investigator the more of WTF’s the more you need to investigate……………
The Saturday release proves that Aaron Hulburd was a ‘true-blue’ videophile. He loved that state-of-the-art Helmet Camera ( It probably was a really good GoPro ) and I would bet a sawbuck he always carried spare batteries and spare memory cards.
He didn’t even turn if off when the wild ride forced him to put it down so that it looks like it was just shooting the sky!
I bet he shot miles with that camera. I for sure would have. That’s exactly what they’re for.
See my other post above. Yes. The video footage as a whole is showing us someone who was NOT trying to ‘save battery’ all the time. His obviousyl default habit was to just turn it on and LEAVE it on.
That is why I’m having such a hard time believing what Arizona Forestry and the USFS seem to be trying to make us believe here.
That he would have been ‘stopping’ and ‘restarting’ the camera so much during a very critical time.
Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out. Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results in a wider view and some distortion around the edges. So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Methods says
Reply to Method’s post on November 13, 2014 at 4:21 pm
>> Method said…
>>
>> Not a huge piece of info, but from my experience of
>> filming wildland fires with a GoPro, they don’t have the
>> capabilities of a “zoom”. The small amount of Aaron’s
>> videos that I’ve seen, he seems able to “zoom” in and out.
>> Also, a GoPro has more of a fish eye lens which results
>> in a wider view and some distortion around the edges.
>> So my opinion is that Aaron is not using a GoPro.
Thank you, Method.
Obviously we are struggling to figure something out here that we really shouldn’t have to. The actual name of the DEVICE that took these videos SHOULD still be retained in the EXIF metadata that is always embedded in the actual videos…
…but it is NOT.
The EXIF data has been REMOVED from these videos, which means they are in no way ‘original copies’ of the material that USFS has in their possession.
Actually… it is perfectly obvious now that even though that video of the final MAYDAY calls that Arizona Forestry released back in December was called ‘The Helmet Camera Video’… these new clips indicate that Aaron Hulburd probably wasn’t using an official ‘Helmet Camera’ at all.
Yes… there are obviously times when the device appears to be attached to his Helmet… such as in the original December footage with the MAYDAY calls captured…
…but in some of these new video clips it is obvious it was NOT attached to his Helmet at all while he was filming.
In video M2U00266R… it is obviously just sort of clipped to his shirt pocket… more like the ‘Body Cams’ that Police Officers use now.
When Aaron Hulburd is standing right in front of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… the camera is obviously at ‘pocket level’ and all we see is Yowell’s shirt buttons.
So it was more likely just a camera that was able to CLIP to things, like a Helmet bracket or a shirt pocket.
Thanks for your comment and your interest in this ongoing discussion.
John—
Have you asked why the State Or the FS did not release a document explaining the 21 videos the actual time frames where they were taken and how much was removed from each file?
It seems strange that was not attached to this release? That should be a normal process as we or I have seen in the past under FOIA. Should not all of these videos also have had an accurate date and time stamp? To just dump these out there as the Head Cam videos when some are not is strange again for People who deal with FOIA’s all the time?
Add on I for got to add I did read the letter you got To me it seems incomplete…
I was just about to ask if there really ever was any fulfillment of InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request… but I see that just now… there is a NEW article about that on IM’s home page.
Apparently… USFS has, just now, actually fulfilled that original am IM FOIA request.
Whether they complied fully and correctly ( according to law ) remains to be seen.
The new article on IM’s home page also seems to verify what was suspected. Apparently… Arizona Forestry never actually filed their own FOIA request for this material. It was simply ‘arranged’ that they would publish this material on their own AZF website BEFORE the US Forestry Service was going to bother to fulfill any of the FOIA requests.
In public relations / marketing / media circles, a move like that is officially known as ‘getting out ahead of the story’.
OK I just have to say this. After the past few days.
This fire. and the ones who perished in it, is trying to tell us something. Otherwise we who are here wouldn’t be here 16 and a half months later.
This fire is trying to tell us something, in spite of the white-washing of the SAIR, the obstructing via the USFS and AZF of the ADOSH investigation, and various other things, including this most recent release of videos which, given HOW they were released, has probably caused more CONFUSION than ENLIGHTENMENT.
It’s totally apparent to me and others that Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain Hotshots somehow made a really fatal decision that day. All things considered.
Why they did that is still a mystery, although various people among us have various, and sometimes conflicting, ideas about that. I have my own ideas about that, but I am not certain in my own various ideas.
But here’s IMHO the deal.
If the Powers That Be (who we now have evidence that they don’t give a flying F**k about the well-being of their employees) wanted us to think that Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots just made all those fatal mistakes and marched to their deaths down into a doomed bowl of Manzanita simply because they mis-judged the rate of spread of the fire and the time they had to get to the Boulder Springs Ranch…..
WHY are they currently twisting themselves into pretzels in order to with-hold (and have been all along) what we are now realizing is a fairly significant collection of video information in order to protect the Arizona Department of Forestry, even as it harms (by gagging them) their own employees?
If only Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were at fault for their own demise, WHY would the USFS and AZF be going to such lengths to cover themselves, liability speaking????
This question is where I’m at right now.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> If only Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain were at fault for their own
>> demise… WHY would the USFS and AZF be going to such lengths
>> to cover themselves, liability speaking????
Because they KNOW that isn’t the the real truth and/or the ‘simple explanation’?
And they have ALWAYS known that?
There were balls dropped ( and provable negligence ) all over the place here.
Pretty much all weekend.
There are millions and millions of dollars at stake.
To all who have been involved with this Investigation for so long———-
I received a call from a family member to day their first remarks were thanking me and all of you for all the information and steadfast dedication to finding the truth They are part of the Families in the Law suit.
They told me that they never were contacted and tried to find out 3 weeks ago about the Video.
If the Video was shown early it was only shown to those families not involved in the Law Suit.
They also said they were never contacted by the State and notified of the release and only saw the videos after they were released. Nor as stated did there Lawyer know any thing about there release.
Until I posted on the 18th and they started looking for the Video but had no luck till it was released.
Also they are not settling out of court as They first want the truth. Also compensation for the Fatherless children that has still not been forthcoming.
They do believe there was a viewing by some but have not been able to find out who.
So we should all be proud that some of the Family members thank and support our search for the truth. And I know we will continue to work hard to find it……..You guys are assume.
So we are back to who saw that Video when and where??????????????
My contacts grow maybe more info will follow.
The one who thinks I only state rumors should find something else to do. I am only the message carrier and a deeply concerned Retired WLFF———
Because I have used my real name people are finding me and I am receiving information to add to our investigation. But a lot of thanks goes to all of you…………..
Foul deeds will rise, though all the earth o’erwhelm them, to men’s eyes.
William Shakespeare – Hamlet (1.2.256)
In other words…
Lies come and go… but the TRUTH is FOREVER.
If what was suspected actually turns out to be TRUE here… that ONLY the families who have not retained counsel were allowed to ‘preview’ the material before it was published…
…then the word DESPICABLE doesn’t even cut the cake.
It goes all the way to DISGUSTING.
Yeah, I’ve been lately finding myself searching my vocabulary for the appropriate adjectives so I can describe this in polite company without four-letter words or sounding un-realistically hyperbolic.
I just can’t……………..
Thank you so much, Bob, for posting this.
I have to admit, to be honest, that, although I, at first slipped into this for, relatively speaking, the families (especially the family of the firefighter-photographer Chris McKenzie, whose otherwise undocumented but exploited camera I saw sitting there in the middle of the Deployment Site; and then for Amanda Marsh, when I learned that her husband’s cellphone was being with-held from “evidence” for whatever reason), more and more I have found myself just plugging away at this for just basically, THE TRUTH.
There just has been SO MUCH with-holding of both basic and detailed information regarding what happened on this fire by authorities who had collected all this information. I just Shake My Head.
I remember having to look at all those memorial videos just to plant inside my head who these hotshots were and what they looked like so I could identify them in the photos and videos.
I cried my way through every one of them.
My alma mater was Prescott College, essentially the Grandmother of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. My friends were the original Grandmother crews.
I keep dogging at this for all these reasons based in the past and the past year and a half. And for the future. I live in the southwest, my home state (New Mexico) burns, my second-home state (Arizona) burns.
It just cuts me to the core that the agencies we have been led to trust to support the first responders to the inevitable and increasing wildfires burning here are so, apparently to us who have grabbed hold and not let go of this fire, unconcerned about the lives of those first responders and their families, friends, and loved ones.
Namaste.
Marti By the time I was 5 the Forest Service was my home The people that worked at the Ranger stations my family I was one of there kids by the time I was 14 I was sitting in on Crew training all those 18 to22 year old FF were like my brothers. When I went to work for the FS my crew mates and then my coworkers and then my crewman who worked for me and I trained were all my brothers.
The Forest service has totally changed We use to trust and depend on each other
No body higher up hid any thing of importance.
I have been abandoned by my family my home no longer is functioning.
That’s deep enough Ill stop there.
Beautifully said.
When I say home I mean at a start those small Ranger stations I lived on.
5 o 6 families with a barrack’s for seasonal’s.
Every thing we did we did with them. it was like a little small town in the woods no one else for miles.
Every thing you do off duty is with the same people you work with.
It is something not many are evolved in. It is unique to some organizations.
I would not have traded it for the world.
oh and before I forget—some topic on rumors and Bob Powers—
I heard the same information from the media fence event until last week.
However, I heard there is more video information than shown.
What else?
blanking but look forward to showing clarity to some areas but if there is a family member of the loved ones that wants to speak off the record—we always are here for you and some of you already know we do not speak what you tell us.
I posted on the other area because it would not post here under Arizona Forestry but I got all my answers from locals there—
very short on pc time right now. Today is the annual Yarnell town meeting at 5:30 with folks like Simmons, Andy Tobin and Karen Fann and such so I have lots to do before that.
I just want to share a homeowner is willing to share fire, fire equipment, firefighter photos IF I keep it anonymous who person is…YOU BET!
I now understand after I did my Jehova witness method (door to door) this week—getting more information right there in Peeples and the Shrine area as well from folks on mountain top views—
Soon I will have for you photos that may help from 6-30-13 from camera Olympus fe-5010 12 megapixel and the person knows if I vanish before than to get the information to you all and Dr. Ted Putnam as well.
Also, the information has PROPER time stamp so this is a bonus.
Okay, I am sorry everyone is having a juggle this week on new information and when I get time I can resource and source some clarity but I have to go for now.
I am just excited the new news came out because it helps locals come forward.
Also in the one video that homeowner with white truck I am working with cold case to identify if that is our missing man—suicide hiker— who after the fire went missing…the neighboring folks stated they saw fire folks on his property as well in the Shrine area when he was still around so it is interesting if it was Mark Danielson and will have to investigate as to why they had fire meetings on his property he was staying. I will get into this more later on when I have the time.
WTKTT and Marti
I guess I will add to the Conspiracy.
What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh. It seems very interesting there are two separate recordings here if the State knew when the recordings started then there had to be something to cover that start. Just throwing it out there.
Dewanna from Prescott Yavapai College Evacuation Shelter- PLEASE COME FORWARD with your account EVEN if you post here with first name only and explain what you saw at the Prescott Library from government folks with maps out and the talk of what fires and such…please!
Also share about the map you showed us online with the embossed stamp on it from a couple weeks before the fire; please!
Due to privacy laws the doctor that was in the RED CROSS shelter Dr. Barbara Buchanan cannot shed light legally there but yes this lady Dewanna did state information immediately that began our journey right there of questioning what just happened…
I am VERY THANKFUL for recent locals accounts and for doing all you all are about to do—
RIGHT ON!
I mean it. THANK YOU! It has been a long journey of HOPE as I have shared on here hoping you read the site but now I see some of you never did and this means a lot to me and the loved ones and so many…I know it does. We have learned all photos are important in some way.
Sonny is typing on here and have no clue what is on his mind because we have not talked too much just been doing defensible space as well as build horno…
SO I do have time to reply since this pc seems to post my posts-
Reply to Joy A Collura post on November 12, 2014 at 10:52 am
>> Joy said…
>>
>> We have learned all photos are important in some way.
Yes. They are.
We have most CERTAINLY learned that during this ongoing discussion.
Even what might appear to be the simplest and most insignificant pieces of evidence can suddenly turn out to be one more ‘swing of the axe’ as far as getting to the real TRUTH goes.
Thanks once more for everything you do ( and say ), Joy.
Even YOUR photographs ( ALL of them ) have been absolutely invaluable since day ONE.
Somehow, someway… you were in the right place at the right time… and even though the circumstances were not of your own choosing… you have always been willing to accept that… and to share.
That’s REAL courage.
I think that’s an excellent question, Bob.
I’ll wait for WTK to weight in on it, since he knows way more about video editing than I do.
Reply to Bob Powers posot on November 12, 2014 at 10:07 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT and Marti
>> I guess I will add to the Conspiracy.
>> What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual
>> Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh. It seems
>> very interesting there are two separate recordings here if the State
>> knew when the recordings started then there had to be something
>> to cover that start. Just throwing it out there.
Mr. Powers… maybe I’ve had TOO much coffee today… or something… but I am not sure I am fully ‘parsing’ what you are suggesting.
Let me just take it line by line ( but not in the same order typed above ).
Tell me if I am understanding you ( or NOT ).
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> It seems very interesting there are two separate recordings here.
If, by ‘two separate recordings’, you mean the fact that the first THREE videos of the apparent burnout on Model Creek Road were NOT taken by Aaron Hulburd or his Helmet Camera… but then the remaining 18 ‘clips’ with the ‘M2U’ prefix WERE from Hulburd’s Helmet Camera… then YES… it is VERY interesting… and it begs for an explanation.
I still think that IAOF ( If And Only If ) the US Forestry Service is actually trying to suggest this is a FULL and COMPLETE response to the original InvestgativeMEDIA FOIA request that was directed specifically to their ‘child company’ known as “The Prescott National Forest”… then it would appear that the first THREE videos were somehow taken by someone OTHER than Aaron Hulburd who just happens to be employed by ‘The Prescott National Forest’.
So… if they had bothered to supply any documentation of this (supposed) FOIA response material… they would be claiming this is ALL the video they have from anyone who was in Yarnell that day who also happens to work for “Prescott National Forest”.
I am NOT saying that is the ‘explanation’.
I am just saying that would be my ‘guess’ about the ‘two separate recording sources’.
If I am right… then WHO is this ‘other’ PNF Employee who was shooting those first 3 video clips in Yarnell that day? We still need to KNOW.
If I am NOT right… then what the hell are those 3 video clips doing in the release?
The explanation as to why they are all mysteriously 29.8 seconds is secondary to knowing WHO really took these videos… and WHY they are only suddenly now appearing.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>
>> What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual
>> Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh.
Well… first off… we do NOT know ( for sure and certain ) if they ever WERE taken by any kind of ‘cellphone’. Could have been a regular movie-capable digitial camera… OR a Helmet Camera. I actually doubt these would be videos taken with the Helmet Camera that calvin found on the head of that Engine driver we see arriving up on Model Creek Road in the mysterious ‘Engine 151’ photo set. That Helmet Camera looked like a VERY modern Go-Pro camera and I doubt it would have been set to take movies in the 176×144 3GP video format… but it could have been. We KNOW Engine 151 was ‘up there’ on Model Creek Road and assisting with the burnouts… and we KNOW that driver was wearing a Go-Pro Helmet Camera ( thanks to calvin’s sharp eyes ).
Secondly… ( and maybe this is where I’m confused )… I’m not sure what you mean by “there to cover the full and actual video”.
Do you mean you think its possible that they thought people already KNEW there were supposed to be 43 minutes of video released… but in order to bring the total minutes of video up to the 43 minute mark they felt they need to just throw this crap in there ( which was NOT taken by Hulburd ) in order to just cover the huge amount of material they actually WERE ‘cutting’ out of Hulburd’s original footage?
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> If the State knew when the recordings started then there had to be
>> something to cover that start.
Again… I take this to mean you are suggesting that these 3 other vidoes were just ‘tagged’ onto the start of the video release package just to bring the ‘total minutes’ up to the expected 43 minute mark?
I actually doubt it.
They could not possibly have been THAT stupid or thought that was going to ‘work’.
( Or could they? )
You Got what I was asking.
With all the different videos out there these could have fit right in with out missing a beet. We can all see they are separate numbers from the other 18 why not explain the difference?????
Ah… okay… I totally follow you now.
As I reach over and put my new custom-made Internet Conspiracy Theorist Hat ( limited signed edition ) on, then… here is another way of saying what you are saying.
1. Somehow, US Forestry learned that someone KNEW exactly how MANY separate M2Uxxxxx video clips were originally retrieved from Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera. That ‘total number of clips’ was 21… so USFS also KNEW that whoever was after the material would be EXPECTING there to be a total of 21 clips.
2. Upon reviewing ALL 21 of Hulburd’s M2Uxxxxx named clips… they realized there was no way in hell ( FOIA request be damned ) they were going to be release ANY of the first three of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam clips with filenames…
M2U00258
M2U00259
M2U00260
3. They also somehow KNEW that not only did whoever was requesting the material already know there SHOULD be 21 separate clips returned… but that they should ALL add up to 43 minutes.
4. So they knew ( in order to make this look good ) they had to deliver 21 separate little video clips that all totaled about 43 minutes.
5. Some numbskull at USF then thought he had ‘an idea’.
Why not just substitute some harmless other ‘gargbage’ video into the release package to replace the actual first THREE Hulburd clips… but make it look like something that Aaron Hulburd MIGHT have been filming with his Helmet Camera. Since everyone knows Hulburd’s real job is a ‘Fuels Specialist’ for Prescott National Forest… let’s just use some video of the burnout on Model Creek Road ( that we have ALSO been withholding from ADOSH and no one has ever seen before ) and people would believe that is something Aaron Hulburd MIGHT have been filming that day.
6. So they added up the total length of the first three ‘original’ Hulburd clips and discovered they total exactly 89.4 seconds ( 29.8 times 3 ).
They selected the footage they were going to substitute for the first 3 original Hulburd clips… and ( since they knew they needed 3 separate clips to make up for the three they were replacing ) someone just used a video editor to create the total 89.4 seconds needed ( 29.8 times 3 ).
7. They then swapped these three 29.8 second ‘cut’ clips out for the original 3 Hulburd video clips… and VOILA!… they are back to 21 total clips that total about 43 seconds. Mission accomplished.
Well… almost.
Maybe the same numbskull who thought this up then actually FORGOT to rename the 3 video clips he had edited down to 29.8 seconds back to the original Hulburd filenames of M2U00258, M2U00258 and M2U00260.
If he had… that would have completed the ‘cleverness’.
We would now be looking at those first 3 video clips and scratching our heads about how Hulburd got up onto Model Creek Road ( and what TIME since that would have been lost during the file renaming ).
So is THAT really the complete ‘possible’ scenario you, yourself, are imagining here?
I won’t say it happened…
…but since I trust BOTH Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service about as far as I could get a dump-truck through a wood-chipper…
…I won’t say it didn’t, either.
Forgot to make it clear up above.
The FIRST video with a filename prefix of ‘M2U’ that appears amongst these 21 ( supposedly sequential ) videos just released is…
M2U00261
It is actually the FOURTH ( sequential ) video in the release.
We still do NOT know if that really was the first M2U00xxx video that Aaron Hulburd took that day.
There MIGHT have actually been ( at least ) 3 other valid Hulburd videos preceding it.
THEY would have ( supposedly ) been named…
M2U00258
M2U00259
M2U00260
If the numbering scheme used by the device really is ‘digit by digit’… then it’s possible there are as many as 260 OTHER videos sitting on Hulburd’s Helmet-Camera that we still haven’t seen.
Even if the camera’s internal sequential numbering system defaults to a staring number of ‘200’ for filenames… that still means there could be as many as 60 ( SIXTY ) other videos on Hulburd’s camera with filenames starting at M2U00200 through M2U00260.
Catch my drift?
Also… correction for above…
In one place I typed ’43 seconds’ instead of ’43 minutes’.
In order for the ‘scheme’ above to work… they would have been making sure the TOTAL amount of video released came close to 43 MINUTES ( not seconds ) in order to make all this ‘look good’.
21 clips… all totaling right about 43 minutes.
That would have been the ‘goal’ for the ‘release package’ if US Forestry somehow KNEW that’s what the requestor was already expecting and anything less than those numbers was going to look ‘suspicious’.
Absolutely as an investigator that’s where you start that’s where you need info to determine if you theory has any validity or what the real answers are if they don’t fit your theory.
When something don’t fit you gotta ask more questions some of this ain’t fitting.
May mean something may mean nothing???????????
OK. Now I’ll weigh in. I have, though, more questions than answers. I’m going to be thinking out loud here.
I think WTKTT understood you, Bob, better than I did. I kind of went off on a different track than WTK did. It may not be totally irrelevant, though.
What WTK wrote makes a lot of sense to me, in general.
One question I have, though, is how are you, WTK, so sure one of the Prescott Three didn’t take those first three videos–or the longer video(s) they seem to have been cut out of?
Their vehicles were included in the Blues Brothers video at 3:15 parked near the ICP. They didn’t cross the Air2Air Study Cam until well after 4 PM. Couldn’t they have driven over to the Model Creek Burnout? That was kind of the “big thing” that was going on around 3:30 when those three video clips were taken (assuming they were file-named correctly). And I do think that’s the Model Creek Road burnout.
Even as I ask that question, I agree that, all other things considered, those clips were most likely taken by someone working on one of the crews doing the burnout. But I don’t think we can be certain about that without having a solid reason to be certain about that.
Which is related to the first thought I had when I read Bob’s question.
As I interpreted his question in my own mind, I started thinking those three clips could be “the beginning” (that’s how I interpreted Bob’s “beginning”) clips of the video(s) that include the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever. That’s because I am/was feeling confused between the Headcam Video collection, and the video/collection that seems to be still out there somewhere in the ozone that includes that Conversation/Whatever. Since these clips are around 3:30, the timing could make some sense.
Of course, now that I’m thinking further about that, that would have to assume that whoever took that video was privy to the GM intracrew channel.
So that kind of may blow that line of thinking. Or it kind of may not.
Unless it was one of the Prescott Three, and they were accessing that channel. Or it was someone like Willis, Cory Moser, or…….
Or they could just be “padding.” That just never happened to have been released in the FOIA releases. Along with all the other large amounts of videos and photos that were released that were relatively benign. Which kind of sort of starts to beg a question.
[So, OK, I start envisioning someone who is sorting thru all those vast amounts of photos and videos thinking, hmmmmm we may need some padding so I’ll pull out this video for that……]
So, anyway, that was my thinking then.
Here’s my problem with what you are saying, WTKTT.
The first of the M2U clips, M2U00261, was taken, from the ICP, while Todd Abel was flying his second recon and Darrell Willis’ crew was preparing to burn out before they abandoned the Double A Bar Ranch. The radio convo you hear is between them.
According to Willis’ log, they did that around 2:30 PM (regardless of what our counselor insists as to how nobody ever keeps close enough track of time on a fire to keep accurate logs–which I disputed, and I basically trust his log times, even though some of his other actions/words have totally disgusted me on occation).
The next video in the sequence is taken MUCH later (like about TWO HOURS), on Shrine Road, just (relatively speaking) before the deployment, as everybody is evacuating that area.
So, for one thing, that would mean that any videos the helmetcam took before M2U00261 would be of things happening BEFORE about 2:30. Which, therefore, would not include the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever.
AND that would mean (unless the video filenames have been changed…..ahem…..) there would be no video taken by the helmetcam between about 2:30 and the evacuation from Shrine Road.
So that’s where my thinking is different than yours, WTK, at this point.
So that’s where I ask again, is there any kind of relationship between the helmetcam videos and the Granite Mountain Convo/Whatever video(s)?
And, now that I’m rethinking what I just wrote and what you two wrote, I’m thinking about THIS:
WTKTT: “they realized there was no way in hell ( FOIA request be damned ) they were going to be release ANY of the first three of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam clips with filenames…”
What would those earlier (if they even exist) videos taken before 2:30-ish have even included that would have been so “dangerous” to the Powers That Be? I just don’t think there’s a “there” there.
HOWEVER I’m also thinking about this:
Bob Powers: “What if the 3 cell phone videos are there to cover the full and actual Video that has all the radio talk between BR, Cordes and Marsh.”
In my head I was translating this to mean the Granite Mountain Options Conversation/Whatever and possibly associated stuff. Now I’m not sure exactly what you were referencing here. But I think it’s the obvious elephant in the room.
Given what I’ve written above, that any Aaron Headcam video clips taken before M2U00261 would be way too early to contain anything related to that Convo/Whatever/Associated stuff, I think what you are saying here would be incorrect.
HOWEVER, on the OTHER hand, this really (all things considered) HUGE time gap (all things considered) in video files between M2U00262 and M2U263 has been a REALLY big red flag for me. That’s the time-space in which any overheard significant radio communications of the kind WE are considering would have been located.
I.e. If I were the Powers That Be and I wanted to “cover” any section of these videos because they contained something I didn’t want anyone to see/hear, THAT’S what I would want to replace with “something.”
But to do that THIS WAY, would require changing the M2U file names.
I confess, I own no tin hat. I’m just increasingly passionately SERIOUSLY skeptical regarding anything the USFS has done or said regarding this fire..
If somebody can land a spacecraft on a comet that’s moving 40K miles per hour, can someone please actually INVESTIGATE this fire???????
I only rise the question to find info and or answers.
You provided some but would every one know what you said out side this group as to the time these 3 videos were taken?
why are these 3 videos so far from the time of the headcam video? Again were they fillers to cover what is missing?
We have put to gather a lot of time lines and information no one else is doing at least that I have seen. Could the FS just think that the time frame of the first 3 not be noticed by a layman who had no idea of the time of the Video on the shrine rd..
There is no time frame shown on any of the videos, we are finding our own from research and a year of putting the pieces together.
Again my questions are investigative and not any kind of proven fact we have questions.
Remember John can also work to get better answers than we have that is part of why we are here.
You added a lot of questions your self, but dose what I said make any since?
Brief reply while I’m eating my hard-earned pizza.
Of course nobody outside our group would know anything about these timelines that we have been carefully constructing over the past almost year.
Nobody outside our group even seems to know who took the infamous “Last Moments” headcam video.
Much less that that person deserves a gold medal for risking his life to attempt to save the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The USFS and AZF are totally counting on that.
PS
I’m still willing to seriously entertain the possibility that these first three 3:30-ish PM videos might, in fact, be “the beginning” of the video(s) that include(s) the Options Conversation/Whatever/Related radio transmissions.
Because when I wrote this:
“[So, OK, I start envisioning someone who is sorting thru all those vast amounts of photos and videos thinking, hmmmmm we may need some padding so I’ll pull out this video for that……]”
it was totally snark.
In my mind there has to be a reason they excluded this seemingly “benign” video footage of the seriously important Model Creek Road burnout operation from the FOIA release materials.
Of course, I could always be mistaken.
As WTKTT always adds:
“Your mileage may vary.”
And what you say makes total since/sense/science.
Which is also, Bob, why I wrote a ways downstream that I think this release was carefully designed more to confuse than to enlighten.
Bob, you wrote:
“why are these 3 videos so far from the time of the headcam video? Again were they fillers to cover what is missing?”
I want you to understand what I’m thinking/saying.
I have more than one response to your more than one question.
It’s complicated. This would be so much easier if we were talking in person right now.
The reason these three videos are so far in time from the next video in the series is that the next video in the series was actually taken an hour earlier. Which means they were “placed” in the series at the wrong spot, given that AZF says they are in chronological order. For them to say that is not true.
The reason these videos are so far in time from the Shrine Road etc videos is that they were taken an hour earlier from that series.
Which leaves that vastly important time in question, 3:30 to 4:30 (remember that famous communications gap), which includes the Options Conv/Whatever and all the bits we’ve encountered between 4:00 and the burnover missing.
What I’m thinking is that there’s a possibility Aaron caught, on his videocam, something in that timeframe, between 2:30 and 4:30, something really important that the Powers That Be don’t want to put out there, and so they hid that and then filled the “missing” time with these three first video clips.
And I’m ALSO thinking the three 3:30-ish video clips COULD POSSIBLY be “the beginning” of a video or series of videos that might contain that more extensive chunk of all the really important Granite Mountain Convo/Whatever/Additional footage.that we keep hearing about.
In saying this, I realize I’m really pushing out there into relatively thin air.
But the thing that nudges me to do that is that I can’t otherwise figure out how this video footage of the fairly important Model Creek Road burnout operation would have otherwise been held back from FOIA publication if it (in it’s unedited/uncut version) didn’t contain something that the Powers That Be didn’t SERIOUSLY want to with-hold from publication.
That’s why I don’t think the original version of this footage was simply considered to be just “padding,” even though it was obviously used as such here.
And, I acknowledge I could be totally wrong about this.
I’m just thinking out loud here.
Does what I’m saying make sense?
And when I say:
“What I’m thinking is that there’s a possibility Aaron caught, on his videocam, something in that timeframe, between 2:30 and 4:30, something really important that the Powers That Be don’t want to put out there, and so they hid that and then filled the “missing” time with these three first video clips”,
that means that, in order to do THE ABOVE–hide a video (most likely the second one) in the M2U headcam series. they would have had to change the filenames of these M2U headcam videos in order to accommodate that deletion.
Does this make sense?
Now your spinning like me It just got in my head there is something strange here but I do not know how to view and check these like you and WTKTT.
I knew there was something out of sink and you are giving me some info I did not know. What the hell is going on with these 3 videos and there connection or lack of connection to the Helmet Cam Videos.
I will tell you the truth I did not catch the difference or the time difference when I viewed them all. I would never have caught what you guys did until you started talking about it.
Then I looked at them again and the question machine started
turning over and over.
You guys have the ability to dig out this stuff I don’t.
Just a simple fire fighter I guess.
Is there really something here or just my imagination I know there is more video we know the FS made redactions so what else did they do with what we got?????
That’s why it takes a bunch of different kinds of minds to figure this stuff out.
I’ve just spent so much of my life looking at photography/digital images in series based on time. So it’s just the way my mind works.
And I’ve spent so much of this year doing the same regarding this fire, even though I’ve made my share of mistakes.
“that question machine”
The primal force that drives me is curiosity. That Question Machine.
“Just a simple fire fighter I guess.”
And I so respect and honor that you are that. My skills would be lost without yours.
I started “following wildfires” on the Internet via the Rodeo Chedeski Fire (whose smoke filled my house and yard and nose and lungs and tears way over here in Albuquerque).
I was really interested in how communities used the Internet to connect up and communicate and deal with what they had to deal with when they were impacted by wildfires.
The next neighborly “big one” was the Cerro Grande Fire, which I have a chunk of burnt pine from on my living room “altar.” And then and then and then….
Grounded in the fact that I lived in the Ponderosa Forest near Flagstaff for ten years and decided, when I moved back home to Albuquerque that, even though I would love to do that again, the forest was. given mismanagement and global warming, ultimately doomed.
We were in Colorado Springs for a Figure Skating Competition (my daughter did that) during the Hayman Fire. Obviously I went out and photographed that during a break.
But I actually had no real clue how wildfires were actually fought (even though my friends were on the Prescott College crew and I worked for the caterer).
That has been my big challenge this year. To learn, via my computer, which is relevantly inadequate, how that is actually done.
“Is there really something here or just my imagination”
That’s always where I begin. When something just doesn’t seem right…..
As in, like I wrote above about Chris’ camera, which called me into this whole alternate investigation.
Why is that camera so obviously sitting right in the middle of that deployment site and nobody seems to even be seeing it????
It takes ALL of us, giving our various skills and perspectives, questioning and challenging each other in a RESPECTFUL way, to look at this thing from all our different angles and histories and ways of thinking, to slowly, oh so slowly, especially in the face of various obstructions, begin to see and understand the TRUTH that this fire, and those who perished within it, are trying to speak to us.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 12, 2014 at 6:16 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> One question I have, though, is how are you, WTK, so sure one
>> of the Prescott Three didn’t take those first three videos–or the
>> longer video(s) they seem to have been cut out of?
I’m not ( sure ).
I’m pretty much not sure of a whole LOT of things when it comes to this latest ‘evidence dump’… including WHO saw WHAT, WHEN… WHY it was released at this time, or WHETHER it actually contains what it was supposed to.
I have read everything up above… and I think pretty much all the discussion is valid as to (perhaps) figuring out why some of this is the way we find it…
…but I am also going to try and ‘back up the bus’ here for a moment.
I actually just saw the new movie “Interstellar” this evening and, without giving anything away, I am feeling tonight like it would be easier for us to have a debate about what MIGHT be beyond the ‘event horizon’ of even any run-of-the-mill BLACK HOLE than for us to try to figure out why this latest ‘evidence dump’ from US Forestry is the way it is.
This latest ‘evidence dump’ has only been public for about 120 hours now.
It was NOT accompanied with any supporting documentation that even gives a CLUE about the contents.
It is perfectly obvious that SOMEONE added this stupid ‘R’ suffix to video filenames that have also obviously been ‘messed with’ and ‘redacted’ ( for reasons also unknown and unstated ).
It is also just as obvious that since you can only trust the US Forest Service as far as you could pass a bulldozer through a wood-chipper… that just because one of the filenames does NOT have an ‘R’ suffix on it doesn’t mean it wasn’t ALSO edited, redacted, shortened, cut, cropped, butchered or otherwise altered.
My ‘scenario’ above was merely trying to make sure I understood what Mr. Powers was thinking. Now that I do… I can’t say whether or not it happened. I just don’t know enough ( yet ) to say so one way or the other.
Before I was just taking that ‘sideroad’ to make sure I understood this ‘alternate theory’… my thinking was just like yours, Marti.
I was definitely more focused on scratching my head about the HUGE time gap between MU00262 and MU200263, and what that might mean, than what in the hell those 3 seemingly ‘disconnected’ videos are doing up there as the first THREE files in this ‘evidence dump’.
I am even inclined to TABLE the thinking about those first three videos until we at least get a handle on the Hulburd stuff and what HAS ( or has NOT ) actually been released.
Hopefully we are not the only ones who are totally confused by those first three videos… such as… WHO took them… and WHY are they included in this release.
Hopefully someone ELSE is looking into that ( InvestigativeMEDIA? AZREPUBLIC? Someone? )
Maybe someone else CAN actually wrestle at least some base-level explanation of what is actually included in this ‘release’… and WHY.
In the meantime… I am going to rely on my ‘instincts’ here and just ‘think out loud’ for a moment.
I am now speaking from the same instincts I had some time ago when I said it was simply NOT CREDIBLE to me to think that the ONLY time Aaron Hulburd would have used his Helmet-Camera that day was the 7 minutes and 49 seconds that suddenly appeared before Christmas last year.
All of my instincts told me “No way… there has to be MORE’.
My instincts were correct.
Those SAME instincts are NOW also telling me that some very important video footage is MISSING from even this latest release.
Hulburd is now proven to be a classic ‘videophile’.
He loves that Helmet Camera of his… and he loves to USE it.
It is, once again, NOT CREDIBLE to me that he would have turned that Helmet Camera OFF after shooting that first sequence with Todd Abel speaking over the Air-To-Ground channel during his second recon flight…and then ONLY turned it on again some hours later AFTER getting all the way to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot way down in Yarnell.
I do NOT know what that means in terms of the ‘filenames’ that have appeared in this ( totally undocumented ) ‘release’ package.
Yes… if he really did USE that camera even ONE more time between Todd Abel’s recon flight and that circus of confusion on Shrine Road… then that means the M2Uxxxxx filename sequences in this recent ‘release’ HAVE been ‘altered’.
I also fully understand what I am implying there.
If anyone CHANGED any of these filenames… that amounts to ‘tampering with evidence’. Even adding the ‘R’ to some of the original filenames might be construed as a slight bit of ‘tampering with evidence’ when it comes electronic files and filenames and not ‘preserving them in their original form’.
‘Tampering with evidence’ that is directly relevant to either a criminal or a civil court proceeding is not just being ‘clever’… it is a FELONY.
I am also going to return now to something you said, Marti… that was very, very important.
We need to take a deep breathe and first just look at the evidence that was released just last Saturday ‘as it is’ and not ‘as we would like it to be’.
There is ( as you also pointed out ) a LOT there… regardless of what else we might discover is actually ‘missing’.
But until we fully get our heads around what HAS been released… we won’t be able to make a coherent argument about what might still be MISSING.
I am still actually just working on the TRANSCRIPTS for these files.
As was demonstrated last night when I finally got around to working on the transcript for M2U00264… there do seem to be some VERY important ( and previously never heard or testified about ) background radio transmissions in even the material that HAS now been released.
It really is a ‘game changer’ to realize that Gary Cordes actually did TELL Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to tell that Engine crew to ‘watch’/wait’ for Granite Mountain and to (quote) “make sure they get out safely”.
It doesn’t matter that this ‘plan’ of Cordes’ to ‘get them out safely’ was never carried out. What matters is that this ‘plan’ existed… and we are only NOW learning about it.
So just since Saturday… we finally see proof positive that the US Forestry Service has ALWAYS been withholding important evidence from both the families of the men who died AND the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident.
And now… since just 48 hours ago… we ALSO have proof that people being interviewed by ADOSH were ALSO ‘withholding information’ from them during their actual in-person interviews ( Cordes, Esquibel, others? ).
That pretty much throws every existing ADOSH interview back into the “Maybe they were telling everything they knew… maybe NOT” category.
So given all that… I think we should just continue to look hard at what HAS been released and squeeze all the information we can out of THAT, first… before we start debating what is beyond the BLACK-HOLE ‘event horizon’ that is the US Forestry Service and their mysterious motivations.
That’s what I’m going to do for the next few days, anyway.
I really do want to come up with a coherent case for what is still MISSING from what all my instincts still tell me MUST exist… but in order to do that I need to finish all these transcripts ( I’m only about half done ) and see what the evidence that I CAN see still tells me about the evidence someone still doesn’t WANT me to see.
In the meantime… it sure as hell would be nice to hear from Aaron Hulburd about all this.
He knows what he has.
He knows what he has ALWAYS had.
I hope he realizes that he can’t avoid the cards that fate has dealt him here.
Someday, somehow… he is going to have to TALK about that day and what evidence he supplied in the days that followed.
And he is going to have to tell the TRUTH.
Sooner ( rather than later ) would be helpful.
One final ‘off the top of my head’ question for this evening.
If it can be proven that Gary Cordes didn’t just ‘forget’ to tell ADOSH about his plan to send one or more engines to the Boulder Springs Ranch with the specific goal of making sure Granite Mountain left the fire safely…
…but that he was INTENTIONALLY not telling the people charged ( by law ) with investigating the accident about his ‘plan’ for Granite Mountain, and what he knew, and that he actually told his TFLD(t) to begin implementing that ‘get them out’ plan…
…does he get to keep his ‘Firefighter of the Year’ award?
As a Fire Fighter let me add a little to this Gary Cordes plan.
I am have a hard time understanding what 1 or 2 Engines would have accomplished at Boulder Springs Ranch.
Esperanza comes flashing back more people in harms way with a Fire absolutely going to hell.
My only conclusion if this was actually happening Cordes was trying to cover his ASS—
There was nothing Engine crews could have done to help GM but also end up trapped in a HOT safety zone or be over run by the fire on the way into the SZ.
Another more FF dying here by more bad decisions on this Fire.
This starts to speak of the incompetence of the overhead in charge of this fiasco They were totally over there heads as Type 2 OPS and IC.
Another one of those WTF moments on this fire????????
Good point(s).
Don’t forget that even WEEKS after the incident… Gary Cordes was still estimating the SIZE of the Boulder Springs Ranch ‘Safety Zone’ ( to ADOSH investigators ) as between 20 and 30 acres.
It was no such thing. His ‘estimate’ was about TEN TIMES larger than it actually was.
Maybe he thought, given the ‘push’ of the fire… that Granite Mountain WAS going to need an ‘Engine Crew’ there with them at the BSR when they made it there in order to ‘ride out the fire’ at that location.
So maybe even with Cordes over-estimating the size of that ‘Safety Zone’ that HE had personally ‘assigned’ to them that morning… he still had his doubts about how ‘safe’ it really was.
It’s also hard to say that since it is now totally confirmed that ( despite anything the SAIR was claiming ) someone in ‘fire command’ knew EXACTLY where Granite Mountain was going and exactly WHEN they were attempting that risky move…
…why didn’t they send Crew Buggies there?
At the moment Cordes is telling Esquibel to ‘send an engine to Boulder Springs Ranch and tell him to watch for Granite Mountain to be sure they get out safely’… FOUR Crew Carriers were now pulling into the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot.
ANY TWO of these Crew Carriers ( either GM’s carriers or Blue Ridge’s Carriers ) could have been used to ‘go and get Granite Mountain’.
For Cordes to be telling Esquible to send an ENGINE over to the Boulder Springs Ranch means he really must have been having his doubts about the real ‘Safety’ of the ‘Safety Zone’ he had chose that morning.
Only Gary Cordes can elaborate on this PLAN he had to ‘get Granite out safely’.
He had the opportunity to freely discuss this during his ADOSH interview and provide some clarity… but he chose to NOT do so.
He was playing some sort of “Ask me the right question and I’ll give you the right answer” game during his ADOSH interview… just like Tyson Esquibel was doing.
I’d still love to know if Arizona Forestry and the SAIT knew about this ‘plan to get them out’ that Cordes had and that he actually instructed Esquibel to implement that day shortly before the deployment.
If they did… then that was just more information the SAIT decided no one was ever going to hear about from THEM. No way.
SAIT = ‘Special Accident Investigation Team’ my ass.
More like ‘Seriously Avoid Imparting Truth’.
Back to the news releases and statements by the State——–
The State at no time in there release of the Videos on Nov. 8th says they reviewed them with the families or for that matter the Lawyers of the families. They received them on the 7th and released them on the 8th.
So how could the families especially the wife in California view them and make comments.
These tapes were reviewed by we already know 1 Captain from Prescott weeks ago when he told the Families they would be released. I think the Families viewed the then and then when asked by media if they had seen them made short statements not stating when they saw them or reporters just left out the info.
Another clue is that the black out was done by the FS not State as stated.
Some Families did not want that in the release. That also says they saw the Video early enough for the FS to black that out as well they should have.
I truly believe knowing the Government if they were being forced to release the Video would have reviewed it with the Families, Firefighters, County and city officials for comment before the release
I think they redacted the first release viewing and then redacted more before it was released to the State who released it to the Media only..
Any ones thoughts I am just stating what I see and the earlier information I had????
The question in my not even 50% awake brain that has been percolating is what is the role of ADOSH in this?
If I recall correctly, in some of your posts (I think) you said it was ADOSH showing the videos to the families. Or something like that.
Am I remembering correctly?
If so, what do you think? If not, what am I not remembering correctly?
No you are right but what I got was second hand so cant guarantee
if some of the info was mixed up. I am reading in the info that the FS controlled the Video until they released to the state so ADOSH showing it may have been a mix up from what I got. Or maybe not?
Thanks. Gotcha.
My question Did ADOSH have the Video and AZ State Fire did not????????
NOTE ABOVE
Joy is also confirming that the Video was being review in the Prescott
area prior to release confirming my information.
THE FISH SMELL IS GETTING STRONGER
Too bad it’s not grilled freshly caught smoked salmon.
Or the rainbow trout we used to catch in the Pecos.
That would be so much sweeter.
Thank you, US Forest Service!
Bob- we heard it mixed too over here but the BOTTOM LINE we were right on new information surfacing-
Bob said:
I truly believe knowing the Government if they were being forced to release the Video would have reviewed it with the Families, Firefighters, County and city officials for comment before the release
Joy replies:
It compliments the folks we speak to and of course you got to get at this point a lot of folks do not want to have their names out especially just looking locally 2-3 people have died a month and some vanished—so really I understand but yes I support this statement above for we were approached that there was new information to be looked over that in that new information that this whole court thing may never make it to court and talks of settling was told to us-
I agree with both Mr. Powers AND Joy here.
It would only make SENSE ( common sense ) that the people to whom this new evidence would be the most ‘sensitive’ would have at least had a chance to SEE it BEFORE it had to be released due to valid ( legal ) pending FOIA requests.
But Mr. Powers is right.
If we are to believe the Arizona Forestry service when they say they ONLY received the material ( for the FIRST time ) from the US Forestry Service sometime last Friday… and then it was all fully uploaded and ready to ‘go public’ from the AZF YouTube channel just hours later on Saturday morning…
…that means there wasn’t TIME to really ‘show it around’ to ALL the family members, get comments, and then do any further ‘redacting’ according to THEIR wishes.
No. This all had to be ‘coordinated’ on a larger timeframe than just one Friday afternoon and the following Saturday morning.
We are still being bullshitted by Arizona Forestry with regards to how this actually all ‘went down’.
Given the absolute ‘surprise’ ( and yes, shock ) expressed by attorney ( and former Hotshot ) Patrick McGroder on behalf of the families he represents… combined with the media reports from SOME family members about how ‘worried’ they were after ‘seeing’ this material…
…one possible explanation could be ( and I still hate to suggest this but I feel it’s plausible ) is that the video was only pre-shown to family members who have NOT filed any legal action against the State of Arizona.
We need to know more about this J.P. Vicente guy ( the Prescott Fire Captain ) who WARNED family members about this release WEEKS ago.
WHO did he WARN? Only family members who haven’t retained counsel?
HOW did he know as much as he seemed to know about what the US Forestry Serivce was about to release… and what was contained in it… when we are now supposed to believe the Arizona Forestry Service itself didn’t know anything about that until some shit showed up on their doorstep just last Friday?
There is still a ‘STORY within the STORY’ here that needs to come out.
You can read above but the family member I talked to was told nothing or heard nothing from the Captain.
This is one of those times when I really, really hope I am WRONG about something.
If a decision was made to actually ONLY pre-show this sensitive material ( before public released ) to the families of deceased firefighters who have NOT retained counsel…
…then I hope every single person involved with that decision and the implementation of it loses their jobs. Immediately. Lawyers included.
It would be beyond despicable. It would be disgusting.
**
** SPGS1 GARY CORDES TOLD TASK FORCE 2 TRAINEE TYSON ESQUIBEL
** TO SEND AN ENGINE TO THE BOULDER SPRINGS RANCH AND TO
** MAKE SURE GRANITE MOUNTAIN GOT OUT SAFELY.
Reply to calvin post on November 11, 2014 at 10:34 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> M2U00264 (1minute 40 seconds)
>>
>> (unidentified speaker)Can we/ Do we have a couple
>> of engines holding in place at the BSR?
>>
>> (Second speaker Cordis?) I’ll send one that way
>>
>> 1. Is that what you all hear?
Yes… but there is MORE.
This moment in that video actually captures a conversation between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and Task Force 2 Trainee Tyson Esquibel where Cordes specifically instructs Esquibel to send an engine over to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to arrive there… and then make sure they all got out safely.
So Gary Cordes definitely KNEW that Granite Mountain was headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch… was supposed to ARRIVE there… and he specifically told Tyson Esquibel to take care of making sure they all got out of there safely.
Tyson Esquibel said he would do that… but he never did.
He didn’t have TIME. Esquibel said he would take care of that after he got out of the Shrine area and regrouped at the Ranch House Restaurant… but the deployment began WHILE Esquibel was still driving down Highway 89 towards the Ranch House Restaurant.
** THE ACTUAL TIMES FOR M2U00264
At the very end of this video… we see and hear Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown pull up to the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot in their Polaris Ranger UTV and start saying ‘Hello’ to Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( who was filming ), and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
According to the Blue Ridge GPS tracking data… the exact time of that arrival at that spot was 1637 ( 4:37 PM )… just 2 minutes before Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to hit the radio.
The M2U0064 video is 2 minutes and 4 seconds long.
So that makes the actual START time for this M2U0064 video right around 1635 ( 4:35 PM ) ( 1637 minus 2 minutes ).
Here is exactly what appear to be said in the background of this video…
Caveat: This is exactly what I ( me, personally ) can hear in the background.
Your mileage may vary.
From Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video clip M2U0064
————————————————————————
+1:37 ( 1636.37 / 4:36.37 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Task force two, Cordes, on our TAC.
+1:40 ( 1636.40 / 4:36.40 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Cordes, Task force two.
+1:42 ( 1636.42 / 4:36.42 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): We have a coupla engines holdin’ in
place at the, uh, Boulder Springs Ranch.
+1:49 ( 1636.49 / 4:36.49 PM )
(TFLD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): I’ll send one that way.
Uh… we’re gettin’ spots up here… but I’ll run one over.
+1:55 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Have him involved with goin’ to get… um… Granite Mountain.
Watch for him and make sure he’s… uh… make sure he’s out.
+2:06 ( 1637.06 / 4:37.06 )
(TLFD2(t) – Tyson Esquibel): Yea… I’m the last one comin’ out right now.
Uh… we’ll regroup at the… uh… cafe and then send somebody in.
+2:12 ( 1637.12 / 4:37.12 PM )
(SPGS1 – Gary Cordes): Sounds like a good plan.
————————————————————————
So Gary Cordes specifically instructed TFLD2( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to be SURE and tell him to ‘watch’ for ‘Granite Mountain’ and make sure they got out safely.
Sounded ‘like a good plan’ to Cordes… but it was already too late.
Esquibel said he would take care of that AFTER they all got down to the Ranch House Restaurant… but the TIME when they formulated this ‘plan’ was already 4:37 PM. In just 2 minutes… Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY was going to hit the radio and Eric Marsh would then announce that they were deploying shelters BEFORE Tyson Esquibel would actually even arrive at the Ranch House Restaurant.
Neither Gary Cores nor Tyson Esquibel mention this ‘plan’ that they both agreed upton to make sure that Granite Mountain was OUT and SAFE in their ADOSH interviews.
However… Tyson Esquibel actually VERIFIES that this very conversation recorded above did, in fact, take place. He just fails to mention that he was told to send an Engine in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to make sure Granite Mountain got out safely.
Esquibel then also DENIES ( to the ADOSH investigator ) that he even knew or had ever ‘heard’ that Granite Mountain was headed for the Boulder Springs Ranch.
From Tyson Esquibel’s ADOSH interview on August 28, 2013 1:11 PM
————————————————————–
Q = Bruce Hanna
A = Tyyson Esquibel ( Task Force 2 Trainee on June 30, 2013 )
————————————————————–
13 Q: Okay. My name is Bruce Hanna. I work for Arizona State OSHA. Today is
14 Wednesday, August the 28th. It is 1:11 pm, and I am with?
15
16 Q1: Uh, my name is Rick Picard. Last name is P-I-C-A-R-D. I’m Deputy Chief
17 of the Peoria Fire Department, and I am the Operations Chief.
18
19 A: Uh, Tyson Esquibel, spelling T-Y-S-O-N, last name E-S-Q-U-I-B-E-L.
20
21 Q: Okay.
22
23 A: I am a firefighter with Peoria Fire Department and was a, uh, task force leader
24 trainee on the Yarnell Hill Fire. Uh, task force 2. That was what my title was.
2276 Q: 1632 request – what is that saying? Structure Group 1 requesting…
2277
2278 A: Um, yeah, just requested someone to, uh, head over to Boulder Springs. Um,
2279 I asked if we could just meet at the café and regroup. And I – he agreed.
2280
2281 Q: Were you guys starting to see structures getting – burning in – in Glen Ilah or
2282 Yarnell at this time?
2283
2284 A: Um, at, um – well there was a lot of people moving out of that area. It was
2285 getting right to the edge of the – the two communities…
2286
2287 Q: Uh-huh.
2288
2289 A: …especially the Yarnell community.
2290
2291 Q: Uh-huh.
2292
2293 A: Um, so not quite yet. I would say that was probably closer to, uh, 1655 or so.
2294
2295 Q: Okay.
2296
2297 A: Probably in that time frame where we started seeing structures go.
2298
2299 Q: Okay. Um, you know, we talked to Paul Musser, and he made a comment
2300 that, uh, some time around 1600 or something like that, he had heard some
2301 traffic from Marsh saying we’re going down a predetermined route to a safety
2302 zone. Did – did you hear anything like that?
2303
2304 A: No, sir.
—————————————————————–
Just for the sake of completeness… here is the actual Blue Ridge GPS
tracking data that matches the timeframe for Aaron Hulburd’s
Helmet-Cam clip M2U00264…
FROM THE BLUE RIDGE GPS TRACKING DATA
——————————————————————–
NOTE: Blue Ridge evacuates the Youth Camp (YC) and Shrine area now and BR convoy heads directly SOUTH to the Ranch House Restaurant. They only stop for 2 minutes on the way out at the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine to (apparently) speak to the firefighters who are already there ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) and who, only minutes later, are going to be shooting the Helmet-Cam video that captures GM radio traffic.
According to this GPS tracking… The BR GPS unit ( Brown ) was actually still there where the Helmet-Cam video was about to be shot just 60 seconds before GM Captain Steed transmits his first “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY message at 1639.
SJS = Saint Joseph Shrine ( Parking lot where Aaron Hulburd was filming )
RHR = Ranch House Restaurant
1635 – 34.228414, -112.754134 – 0644.378 – 07.32 – East out driveway of the Youth Camp (YC)
1636 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0624.010 – 07.09 – At St. Joseph Shrine (SJS) parking lot now
1637 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary at the SJS parking lot
NOTE: The 1637 entry above is the moment that is also captured at the end of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video M2U00264.
1638 – 34.227183, -112.752758 – 0000.000 – 00.00 – Stationary at the SJS parking lot
1639 – 34.224803, -112.749746 – 1342.030 – 15.25 – Suddenly all the way EAST on Shrine Rd.
1640 – 34.222603, -112.746935 – 1188.170 – 13.50 – At intersection of Shrine Rd and Highway 89.
1641 – 34.217985, -112.750025 – 1966.140 – 22.34 – Heading SOUTH on Highway 89 to the RHR
1642 – 34.213532, -112.755497 – 2468.580 – 28.05 – Heading SOUTH on Highway 89 to the RHR
1643 – 34.213279, -112.755239 – 0167.099 – 01.90 – Arrival at the Ranch House Restaurant
——————————————————————————-
I agree the mention of the 2 engines at BSR is a question (is prefaced by DO we have…). Of course that makes sense when he says he would send one over. The next part is very soft and hard to hear, but I clearly hear the word “Granite” and something about “out”. Given Esquibel’s remarks about going to the café and then sending someone in, WTKTT’s “transcript” is likely spot-on. Whether anyone else knew where GM was going in not clear, but it appears Gary Cordes was clued in. To at least one person, their actions were not a big mystery. This conversation would seem to lend credence to the idea that GM went to the ranch simply to get out.
Reply to mike post on November 12, 2014 at 6:24 am
>> mike said…
>>
>> I agree the mention of the 2 engines at BSR is a
>> question (is prefaced by DO we have…).
I was actually not 100 percent sure I truly heard the word DO at the start of that transmission from Cordes ( which is why I didn’t actually type it into the transcript above )… but yes… it MIGHT be there… and I WOULD tend to say that Cordes’ inflection seems to go UP at the end of the sentence… indicating it was, in fact, a QUESTION to Esquibel..
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Of course that makes sense when he says he would send one over.
>> The next part is very soft and hard to hear, but I clearly hear
>> the word “Granite” and something about “out”.
There is a moment therewhen KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s voice jumps into the foreground and sort of ‘covers’ what Gary Cordes is telling Esquibel to do…but if you simply ‘filter’ Yowell’s voice out of the audio track… it is much easier to hear that Cordes is actually telling Esquibel to get whatever engine he is going to send to the BSR to be sure and ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain, and ‘get them out safely’.
Reply to mike post on November 12, 2014 at 6:24 am
>> mike said…
>>
>> Whether anyone else knew where GM was going in not clear, but
>> it appears Gary Cordes was clued in.
Yes. That is actually no real revelation at all.
The SAIR, of course, mentions NOTHING about Cordes being fully aware of what their ‘plan’ was and knowing exactly WHERE they were going. It wasn’t until Cordes was interviewed by ADOSH that we heard Gart Cordes himself say he had ‘no doubt’ ( at any time ) that they were actually headed to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
He even told ADOSH he was absolutely sure they had ‘plenty of time to get there’ and he was shocked when told where the bodies actually were.
>> To at least one person, their actions were not a big mystery.
Well… it IS now a ‘new flash’ that at was at least TWO people.
Even though it was very close to the time of the deployment… there is now no doubt that Tyson Esquibel ALSO knew what Cordes knew… that Granite Mountain was ‘coming out’ via the Boulder Springs Ranch.
Esquibel never mentions this in his ADOSH interview and… indeed… actually seemed to say he did NOT know this.
Did Esquibel pass on what he knew there in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot after the realization there was a deployment… and THAT is actually how Frisby and Brown knew to first try to attempt to ‘break through’ via Lakewood?
That is unknown. Esquibel never mentions that, either, in his ADOSH interview.
There have also always been those Tom Story photos of an ‘Engine’ LEAVING the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot and then appearing to head INTO the Glen Ilah area via Lakewood Drive… while everyone else was still ARRIVING at the Restaurant.
Perhaps that really was Esquibel still doing what we now know he was told to do by Gary Cordes… send an ‘Engine’ in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘go and get’ Granite Mountain.
Esquibel also mentions nothing about this to ADOSH.
It’s sort of obvious now that in both Cordes’ and Esquibel’s ADOSH inteviews… they were ‘picking and choosing’ what to tell them.
They were not uncooperative… but both interviews seemed to be a “ask me the right question and I’ll give you the right answer” situation.
They were obviously not ‘volunteering’ some information.to ADOSH.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> This conversation would seem to lend credence to the idea
>> that GM went to the ranch simply to get out.
Yes. That seems clear ( at least to Cordes ).
If Marsh/Steed had any other ‘plan’ once reaching the Boulder Springs Ranch other than just ‘getting the hell out of there’… then it seems that ‘plan’ was NOT shared with SPGS1 Gary Cordes.
I do wonder, however, if this thing about ‘Engines being staged at the Ranch’ factored into Marsh’s decision making.
Did Gary Cordes actually TELL Marsh he thought there were 2 engines staged there… or that even if there weren’t… if he could just make it to the Ranch he would be sure and send an engine there ( just like we now hear him telling Esquibel to do ) and he would ‘get them out of there’?
As usual… there is still more to learn here.
When we thought we were talking about an air tanker
could the statement ( I’ll get one down to you) have meant an Engine ?
Mr. Powers… are you referring to the moment captured in Robert Caldwell’s video ( circa 3:50 PM ) when we hear OPS Todd Able tell DIVSA Eric Marsh…
1. Keep ME informed ( of your situation and your whereabouts ).
2. Hunker and be safe ( in the black ).
3. We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP.
If so…then the answer to your question is no.
Not the same moment or the same topic.
The question to really ask now is…
Since we now know Cordes was specifically telling his Task Force 2 Trainee to send an engine to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to ALSO tell whoever he sent there to ‘watch for Granite Mountain and make sure they get out safely’…
…was this Cordes somehow fulfilling a PROMISE that he had made to Eric Marsh?
Did Cordes actually TELL Marsh over the radio something like “Hey Eric… if you guys can make it to that Ranch I showed you on the map this morning I will make sure someone is there to pick you up”.
Cordes doesn’t report having any kind of conversation like that with Marsh… but we also now can’t trust his ADOSH interview because we also now know he was NOT mentioning this other conversation he had with Esquibel.
There is more to learn here… from both Cordes and Esquibel… and anyone else who also heard this conversation.
Correction for above ( regarding the TIME(s) ).
I goofed. I was off on the TOTAL LENGTH of video M2U064 by about 90 seconds.
The actual ( full ) length of this Hulburd video clip is 3 minutes and 37 seconds.
I will post another ( complete, start to finish ) transcript of this entire video soon with all the correct timestamps on the dialog…. but for now… just SUBTRACT about 90 seconds to the TIMES printed above.
The time of 1637 for the moment at the end of the video when we see Frisby and Brown pull up to the Shrine parking lot is still accurate, however. That comes from the Blue Ridge GPS Unit itself.
Regardless… those 90 seconds don’t change what actually happened.
There was still no TIME for Esquibel to carry out the ‘plan’ he and Cordes agreed to about ‘going to get Granite Mountain at the Boulder Springs Ranch’.
The deployment took place BEFORE Esquibel actually reached the Ranch House Restaurant.and even had a chance to send that engine in to the Boulder Springs Ranch to ‘get them out of there’ safely’, as he was told to by Cordes.
WTKTT Great work if what you found is accurate and can be clarified we may have the needle in the hay stack.
I can not hear those placeless well enough to verify what you are saying but trust your word for now.
If this is the only thing we get out of these tapes it is still huge……….
Some times people just miss removing simple things that’s when investigators start celebrating.
As is the case with MOST of these ‘background recordings’… the only way to know for SURE is to re-interview the participants and see if THEY recall the conversation and/or admit to having it.
There is also no doubt this conversation took place on TAC 3, the frequency that Cordes had gotten assigned especially for ‘Task Force 2’ in Yarnell.
That means anyone scanning TAC 3 probably heard this same exchange between Cordes and Esquibel and could also be ‘re-interviewed’.
I’m not sure about ‘needle in the haystack’…. but I agree with mike above.
This seems to prove that if Granite Mountain had ANY other plan than to simply ‘make it to the Ranch’ to just ‘get the hell out of there and go home’… then Gary Cordes didn’t know about it.
Looks like you might have been right (again) all along, Mr. Powers.
They were not trying to be heroes for anyone.
They just wanted to ‘get the hell out of there’.
I’ll reserve that as my personal opinion
I do believe that the discussing and argument precipitated the fact that Cordes then knew or even talked to Marsh. about there move. It is out there as sure as I sit here in a recording. I believe the SAIT knew it and kept it from the investigation.
#$%&*+!@$$%^ Words And as we have known all along no communication problems.
If in fact Cordes working as a State Employee Knowingly allowed them to do what they did the State is in very deep KAKA.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 12, 2014 at 8:37 am
I>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do believe that the discussing and argument
>> precipitated the fact that Cordes then knew or
>> even talked to Marsh. about there move.
This new piece of evidence does suggest there were ‘other’ conversations ( still unreported ) between Cordes and Marsh.
Maybe this even factored into the (alleged) ‘argument’.
Perhaps Steed was taking the position that regardless of whether they could reach the Ranch… what THEN? How did they know they just wouldn’t get ‘stuck’ there and have to ‘ride out the fire’ in a location that was probably survivable… but not even nearly as safe as where they already were.
Marsh might have already had some kind of ‘promise’ from Cordes that he would be sure to send one ( or more ) vehicles to the Boulder Springs Ranch to already be there to ‘get them’ when they arrived… which is now EXACTLY what we hear him telling Tyson Esquibel to do. That was the ‘plan’.
Marsh might have then ‘played that card’ with Steed and said “Jesse… all we have to do is get to that Ranch. Gary Cordes said he would take care of having us ‘picked up’ when we get there.”
Steed then ( still reluctantly? ) agreed to ‘make the move’.
It’s possible this is the way it went down that day.
Someone needs to re-interview Gary Cordes, Tyson Esquibel, and anyone else who might have heard the radio traffic and was aware of this ‘plan’ for one or more engines to ‘go and get Granite Mountain’.
So when does this become a FEDERAL investigation by the FBI?
I mean its okay to invade our lives privately and know every detail to Sonny and I for your benefits & twists & turns whoever is running this CONTROL show and we know that FIRMLY by a conversation with Katy that we have been listened on in our own private spot when hiking headquarters was at U-Stow It office last Fall. as well as we have proof we were followed by a black escalade last year because WHO GOES IN THE DESERT where we camped out at the times we happen to go and come back…really?
I’ve been asking people when/how a federal agency obstructs justice in a state OSH investigation, is there any precedent for that kicking up into a federal QSHA investigation.
But, yes, I agree that maybe this should/could put it into an FBI ballpark.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 11, 2014 at 8:46 pm
NOTE: Brought up from down below in a thread that was discussing some of the new John Burfiend comments heard in the newly released videos. The discussion ‘descended’ back to the issue of whether or not Bravo 33 ever really did do a VISUAL check on Granite Mountain’s location.
The SAIR says that Bravo 33 ‘offered’ to do that… but that OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and said it wasn’t necessary because he was sure they were ‘in the black’.
That SAIR description does NOT match either statements from Todd Abel himself made in his interview with ADOSH… nor does it match some other peripheral evidence in the Air-To-Air radio channel captures.
And then there has always been the possible moment at the START of one of the Panebaker VLAT videos were we SEEM to actually hear John Burfiend confirming his ‘visual sighting’ of Granite Mountain circa 4:13 PM and then asking someone on the ground to ‘call them’ and confirm whether or not DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ) is actually WITH the men he has ‘seen’ down there, because Burfiend is not sure if he is, or not, and wants to know.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’ve pointedly stayed out of these discussions about what’s being said
>> on the videos when what’s being said is not clear because of audio noise, etc.
>>
>> My ear is not that good.
>>
>> But at this point, because of all this convo, I would to at least know what
>> we are talking about.
>>
>> Which video is this in and where in the video is it?
This ‘possible’ radio traffic involving John Burfiend in B33 talking to someone on the ground about his ‘visual sighting’ of Granite Mountain circa 1613 ( 4:13 PM ) is at the very start of the following Panebaker video…
20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
I’ve posted what I believe to be an accurate transcript of the radio captures in this video several times… and ALWAYS with ‘Huge caveats’ that the transcript represents what I ( me, personally ) am hearing in this video… but ‘your mileage may ( of course ) vary’.
So here it is again exactly as I have posted it several times already, spanning multiple chapters of this ongoing discussion.
I actually just listened to the video once again with fresh ears… and I still stand by the following transcript. It really, truly does represent what I am hearing in the background.
Here is exactly what has been posted before… with only one addition.
This version is updated to show the exact moment ( near the end ) when the video captures the same VLAT retardant drop that we now know is ALSO represented by ABC15 Helicopter footage clip 05.
That’s the one I posted the ‘crossfade’ on just several days ago.
** TRANSCRIPT FOR PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
This video is 3 minutes and 31 seconds long.
NOTE: Since the timestamps used in the filenames for these Panebaker videos actually represents the END time for the clip(s)… that means the actual START time for this 161620 video is 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
Direct link to this 161620 Air Study video in the online Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABZHI5bHPGycOVSAZbxff6Ea/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video#lh:null-20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
NOTE: This is the video that *appears* to capture ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) saying
he can ‘see’ GM and they keep saying ( to him ) they are ‘comfortable’ but he
doesn’t find that credible based on the fire behavior he is seeing from the air.
ASM2/B33 ( Burfiend ) then tells whoever he is speaking to on the GROUND over
the A2G channel to CALL Marsh and ASK him if he is WITH Granite Mountain.
Someone on the ground then immediately does, in fact, call and asks… “Granite Mountain…
what’s your status right now?” That’s when we get the ‘dodgy’ response(s) from
Eric Marsh ( and Jesse Steed? ).
NOTE: This is ALSO the video where, at +5 seconds, we see Jason Clawson
and his UTV dead-center in the video… heading EAST on Hays Ranch
Road and down to Shrine road… and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’
Yowell are right behind him. As Jason Clawson passes the camera in
his vehicle he is actively talking on either a cellphone or a handheld radio.
Here is what I believe is the FULL transcript of that video… including the part at the very beginning which is what CAUSES someone to actually call Granite Mountain to ask them what their status was at +41 seconds into the video ( 4:16.30 PM ).
What actually seems to be captured at the start of this video is someone on the ground confirming with ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) that he (ASM2/B33) can actually SEE Granite Mountain ‘behind those hills’ and ‘on the corner of the fire’… but ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) is also concerned that they keep saying they are ‘comfortable’ where he can see them.
ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) seems to also say that is ‘not credible’ ( based on the fire behavior he is seeing at this time ) and he INSISTS that someone on the ground call Granite Mountain and at least make sure that DIVS A (Marsh) is actually ‘with them’.
ASM2/B33 was being forced to play double duty as Air Attack at this point since Rory Collins abruptly left the area a few minutes earlier because his pilot had ‘timed out’… and ASM2/B33 needs to KNOW if ‘DIVS A’ ( or simply ‘Alpha’, as ASM2 says ) is actually with GM where he can (apparently) SEE them down there circa 4:13 PM when this ‘conversation’ seems to be taking place.
NOTE: This is a transcrpt of only the BACKGROUND radio traffic on the A2G and TAC channels that seems to have been captured by this video. The foreground traffic on the A2A channel with ASM2/B33 Thomas French talking to other planes is NOT included in this transcript.
HUGE CAVEAT: This is MY best interpretation of the background audio for that entire video. Your mileage may, of course, vary… but I would put money on the following translation for the background captured radio traffic in this Panebaker 161620 Air Study video.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 STARTS AT 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
+0:08 ( 1612.57 / 4:12.57 PM )
(Unknown): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+0:12 ( 1613.01 / 4:13.01 PM )
(ASM2 – B33 – Burfiend): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re
comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 just TOLD them to do.
He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS.
It is now about 4:13.30 PM, just a few minutes before the SAIR said they were about to leave the
two-track road and drop into the box canyon at approximately 4:20 PM.
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
(Unknown): Granite Mountain ( Five? )… What’s your status right now?
NOTE: A pretty heavy accent on this speaker. Sounds like Louisiana Cajun?
What he actually says almost sounds like… “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?
ALSO NOTE: Even though the caller asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically, and not ‘DIVS A’… Eric Marsh responds immediately on behalf of Granite Mountain before Jesse Steed even has a chance to say anything. Jesse only appears to ‘chime in’ with his own ‘status’ report about “we’re pushin’ our way down into the structures” when Marsh is done speaking.
+0:52 ( 1613.41 / 4:13.31 PM )
(DIVSA – Eric Marsh): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact
escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. ( slight pause )
mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
+1:07 ( 1613.56 / 4:13.56 PM )
( Another voice immediately adds to what Marsh said but it is )
( NOT Marsh this time. It sounds like Jesse Steed. This is not confirmed. )
(Jesse Steed): We’ll be pushin’ our way down into the structures.
+1:10 ( 1613.59 / 4:13.59 PM )
( Another voice. Very quickly): Copy that.
+1:21 ( 1614.10 / 4:14.10 PM )
(Unknown): Ten four. You with Granite Mountain right now?
NOTE: Whoever is talking with Marsh at this point uses the phrase ‘Ten four’ to acknowledge a transmission instead of the usual ‘Copy’ or ‘Copy that’. This, itself, should help to identify the caller.
+1:24 ( 1614.13 / 4:14.13 PM )
(DIVSA – Eric Marsh): Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
NOTE: Marsh seems to completely ‘dodge’ the question he was asked.
Either he didn’t hear it correctly or he was purposely deciding NOT to
say whether he was actually ‘with’ Granite Mountain at that point in time.
As for the rest of this video…
There appear to be some other background conversations in this video before we hear the 11 ( ELEVEN ) shutter clicks of Eric Panebaker and the others with him in the foreground actually shooting still photos of the VLAT drop… but there is also HEAVY road traffic at this point that will take a lot more work to filter out.
VLAT 911 RETARDANT DROP TAKES PLACE…
+2:22 – ( 1615.11 / 4:15.11 PM ) – VLAT 911 STARTS DROPPING RETARDANT
+2:36 – ( 1615.25 / 4:15.25 PM ) VLAT 911 STOP DROPPING RETARDANT, HARD LEFT ON EXIT.
VLAT 911 RETARDANT DROP DURATION: 14 SECONDS
NOTE: This matches exactly the ‘drop location’ and ‘drop duration’ of the VLAT drop filmed by ABC15 Helicopter Air15 when it was over the fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM that day.
This would be sequential clip number 05 in the ‘Air15’ raw video footage.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 ENDS AT 1616.20 ( 4:16.20 PM )
Copy.
Thank you!!
Thanks that was what I was trying to refer to yesterday that you had posted way back
As you know I was getting a little frustrated with some one.
I was following and understanding that.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 10, 2014 at 8:34 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m also thinking whatever accommodation AZF may be trying to negotiate
>> with ADOSH is going to be seriously negated by this whole thing.
Yes. It’s really hard to understand the ‘timing’ on this.
It is perfectly obvious that the ‘plan’ was to ‘get out ahead of the story’ and release this ( redacted ) information from a place where both Arizona Forestry and the US Forestry Service could still feel like they had ‘control’ of what the public gets to see…
…but if Arizona Forestry still thinks they can seriously challenge the ADOSH findings then maybe there really is something to that talk about ‘Datura smoke’ messing with people’s brains in Arizona.
The newly released material does nothing but SUPPORT the existing ADOSH findings… right down to firefighters seen there on Shrine Road all coughing their brains out as they were evacuating WAY too late from that location.
This ‘evidence dump’ also proves, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that BOTH Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service have ALWAYS been ( and still ARE ) withholding ‘evidence’ that they have always had in their possession from both the families of the men who died AND the people who were charged ( by law ) with investigating the incident itself.
Arizona Forestry’s own reason for challenging the ADOSH findings was stated ( in their own letter of complaint ) that they felt ADOSH made conclusions ‘without substantive evidence’.
Now the same Arizona Forestry publishes just SOME of the ‘substantive evidence’ that both they AND the US Forestry Service had been withholding even from ADOSH itself.
Not a good situation for Arizona Forestry.
I believe the ADOSH findings are going to stand.
I also believe that ADOSH might have the right to do ANOTHER investigation based on the new reality that they were never given full access to all available evidence in the first place.
One more time… with feeling ( and ALL the evidence this time )?
Copy. Thank you!
I’ve been asking people I encounter, who even only vaguely might have the knowledge to answer, some version of this:
What happens when a federal agency obstructs justice by obstructing a state OSH investigation? Is there any precedence for that triggering a federal ADOSH investigation?
So far nobody I’ve asked has any answer to that.
ADOSH has, it seems, every reason to instigate a second investigation. But it seems to me, at this point, USFS could keep obstructing that, as they have done so far.
It seems to me, all these things considered, that something on a Federal level may need to be launched in order to force the US Forest Service to actually cooperate.
I have so completely lost any respect I have ever had for the United States Forest Service.
That doesn’t mean I have lost any respect for a vast majority of their employees, who, apparently, their employer is totally willing to manipulate and abandon, if it deems it necessary in order to protect its “image.”
I think only a federal level investigation is adequate and just here.
Marti said: “Sorry, counselor, hate to ruin your day… You seems to have forgotten one very important ACTUAL truth. These videos were not taken with a cellphone.”
My Response: WRONG, Marti. The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind). I haven’t looked at the metadata of the other videos.
Marti also said: “ALL of the videos I have bothered to take the time to download (which is most of them taken on this fire) were taken with iphones–either generation 4 or 5–or up-to date samsungs, except for the ones taken with a Go-Pro (which these by Aaron may have also been filmed with, but the one actual video actually published last spring had no camera metadata attached to it), a fairly expensive camera. I have never seen a video taken with the ancient flip-phones you are so certain those poor fire-fighters use. That’s an ACTUAL truth.”
My Response: I haven’t looked at what you downloaded, Marti. Sorry. I have too much of my own stuff to get through at this point, and I imagine you uploaded or downloaded stuff I already have, so I just cannot make the time right now to go look. Apologies. That is why I was ONLY commenting on those three videos that WTKTT was proclaimin for sure were sliced down to 29.8 seconds or some such. The truth is that they weren’t sliced. They were that length to begin with. Hope this helps. 🙂
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 11, 2014 at 3:40 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>> The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind).
>> I haven’t looked at the metadata of the other videos.
So… are you implying that you HAVE looked at the metadata for the for these first three videos… and you are trying to get us to believe there is something in there that tells YOU what kind of device took these videos?
There is NO device metadata information in the first three video files released by Arizona Forestry.
The videos sitting in the Arizona Forestry account are NOT the originals.
There is NOTHING in those copies of the original videos that Arizona Forestry has uploaded to YouTube that indicates exactly what kind of ‘device’ was used to shoot the videos.
The fact that the ‘image size’ in the metadata is reported as 176×144 also means nothing.
176×144 is simply one of the standard video image sizes for the 3GP video format.
It indicates NOTHING about what kind of device might have taken the video.
The video files that can be downloaded from the Arizona Forestry site are actually MP4 files but this is the result of a ‘conversion’ as they were prepared for a YouTube upload.
The fact that the ‘image size’ is 176×144 actually indicates that the ORIGINALS ( wherever they are ) were probably shot using the 3GP video format… but it still tells you NOTHING about what device might have taken the videos.
OR… are you actually trying to say that YOU have ‘original copies’ of these videos, and they DO still have enough ‘device information’ in the metadata to support your ‘statement of fact’ that you just made about what kind of device took the videos?
If that is the case… then show us the actual DEVICE information ( and also, please tell us how it is that YOU seem to have ‘original copies’ of these videos with all the original metadata onboard ).
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> The truth is that they weren’t sliced. They were that length to begin with.
See above. If you have PROOF of what you are saying… then show it.
You actually *might* be right, Elizabeth.
There MUST be an explanation for why 3 separate videos are pretty much exactly the same length, down to some hundredths of second. That is not possible to achieve with the human hand on a shutter button…
But until we know what device was actually used, and what its actual capabilities were… then there is still the possibility the equal lengths are simply the result of someone ‘cropping’ the original material to a specific length using software.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> Hope this helps. 🙂
As usual ( from you )… it does NOT. Insufficient data.
I totally fundamentally absolutely agree with what you are saying here.
I seriously believe our counselor has no evidence to support her claims.
I think it should ALSO be pointed out ( to everyone ) that UNLESS there is actually enough independent EXIF metadata embedded in a piece of video so that you CAN independently confirm what DEVICE shot the video…
…then you are NEVER looking at an ORIGINAL copy of the video.
NONE of the material just released by US Forestry / AZF is ‘original evidence’.
Anyone who still has an FOIA request pending for this same material should insist on getting ‘original copies’ that STILL have ALL of the original EXIF metadata in them.
Agree.
I can also agree as I know the original is still in the hands of its owner. He released a copy to the FS.
If in fact the head Cam was owned by him he has sole rights to the Video and the FS can only get a copy under a request. The full original has always been out there. At this time he is still under a gag order as a FS Employee.
Copy that… but I should have CLARIFIED something.
When I say ‘original copy’… I was not referring to the ACTUAL ‘original footage’ as it resides in the owner’s possesion.
In the digital world.. an ‘original copy’ simply means a ‘byte for byte’ copy of the original… including all the metadata that might be present in that electronic file.
When a video ( or a photo ) is EDITED or CONVERTED… that is when that ‘original metadata’ can be lost ( or even purposely removed from the ‘new’ copy being created ).
That’s what was released on Saturday by AZF.
They are not ‘original copies’ of the material.
They are ALTERED ‘copies’ with pretty much ALL of the original metadata removed.
I was not suggesting that anyone with an outstanding FOIA insist on seeing the ACTUAL ‘originals’.
What I think they should insist on receiving are TRUE ‘original copies’ that are byte-for-byte identical to the actual ‘original footage’… and still have all the ‘original metadata’ in them.
I think this is a very unfair response to what I wrote.
When I wrote that response, it was based on the actual TRUTH that the videos were released as HelmetCam videos.
Given the fact that the videos have no camera metadata attached to them, I had no reason to believe that was not true when I wrote that comment.
That’s why I said that the videos are not cellphone videos.
You were stating that you KNEW that the videos were taken, not only with a cellphone, but with an older flip-phone version of one, because that’s what, apparently, to you, everybody uses.
Which I challenged, based on my extensive observations, over the past eleven months, of the videos made public from this fire. So far as I’ve seen, no metadata supports your claim.
There was no evidence out there in the public realm, at the time I wrote my comment, that supports your certainty that the videos were taken with a cellphone.
The videos have no camera metadata. Unless you have those videos in a format that includes that metadata, you have no evidence that they were taken with a cellphone, much less the kind of cellphone you insist firefighters are using.
It was only AFTER I wrote what I wrote that WTKTT hypothesized that the first three videos, in his opinion, were taken with a cellphone, not the headcam. Is that what you seem to now be using as the basis of your statement that “The first three videos were taken by cell phone camera (the old-school kind).
There is no camera metadata EVIDENCE (unless you have something we don’t have), at this point (as WTKTT has stated in this thread) of exactly what camera was used for ANY of these newly released videos. Except for the file formats in which the videos were captured/published–which indicates up-to-date cameras/cellphones.
Except that there’s a preponderance of overall evidence that the cellphone-taken videos taken on this fire were, indeed, shot with basically up-to-date cellphones and not the older-version flip-phones you insist are being used.
Did you just attempt to use WTKTT’s post to discredit what I wrote??
I think one of the more interesting questions here is not even what DEVICE might have been used to shoot those first 3 videos released by US Forestry ( and published by AZF )… but what the heck are they doing in the release in the first place?
Seriously.
WHAT are these 3 videos doing in that release package?
If this ‘end run’ that Arizona Forestry just pulled off was actually meant to be some kind of bullshit ‘fulfillment’ of the original FOIA request the InvestigativeMEDIA made directly to the Prescott National Forest…
…then does that mean these first 3 videos were ‘included’ in the release because they WERE shot by someone who works for PNF… but it wasn’t Aaron Hulburd?
There is so much that still hasn’t been explained about this new ‘evidence dump’ that took place on Saturday that I just want to type more long strings of four letter words.
WHY are these the ONLY ‘video clips’ that were just released?
Does the US Forestry Service actually think they just successfully ‘responded’ to a valid FOIA request originally sent to the Prescott National Forest… when the agency that initiated that request has still not received a response?
Bzzzzt…. sorry… thanks for playing our little game but you chose the wrong door.
Until the US Forestry service responds directly to the original entity that initiated the FOIA request… that FOIA request has NOT been fulfilled.
AND… it really is ( legally ) supposed to contain a document that explains the material AND what ‘exemption’ clauses of FOIA are being claimed for ANY ‘redactions’. applied to the material.
If I were a committed “conspiracy theorist” I would be thinking, at this point, that this whole release is, actually, DESIGNED to generate more CONFUSION than ENLIGHTENMENT.
Oh wait……….. [inserts a line of four-letter words] Smoky Bear wouldn’t do THAT, would he?
Not Smokey just the new people that never knew him and now run the Government Wild Lands. Even a cartoon bear has more class……
Calvin asked a useful question about video M2U00267, noting that B33 stated in this video with respect to GM that “it sounds like they were working, umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to ya.” Calvin’s question was “Who gave B33 the information that he is reporting?” My response to Calvin included the statement that “B33 HEARD Eric Marsh say where they were and where they were going.”
This has been my position for months, and the videos that JD is only now getting access to seem to support my position. We have no reason to believe that B33 actually SAW GM anywhere. B33’s SAIT interview seems to make that point pretty clear. In order for B33 to have said what they did about where GM likely was and the fact that GM was “headed downhill,” B33 – just like Eric Tarr of Ranger 58 – had to have HEARD Eric Marsh or GM disclose what they were doing. Bob and Fred want to try to say that somehow B33 saw GM out there up at the lunch spot, but my suggestion to them is that they go back and re-read the B33 SAIT interview.
I am hammering on this point because Fred (and, to some degree, Bob) has repeatedly tried to suggest (or maintain outright) that GM/Marsh were trying to HIDE what they were doing in the last half hour or so before they died, but I, personally, think that it is in bad form to smear the deceased BEFORE you have the verifiable information that allows you to do so. And, while Fred and his various alter-egos on this website and elsewhere have TRIED to repeatedly claim that Marsh/GM were deliberately being unclear or vague in order to hide what they were doing, it appears that Calvin and hopefully others are starting to see that there is not really a whole lot of support for that. Indeed, the “support,” such as it is, points in exactly the opposite direction.
The evidence is increasingly making clear exactly what I have said all along – GM/Marsh were NOT hiding what they were doing. They, in the context of radio communications that were becoming increasingly overlapping or congested, DISCLOSED what they were doing and where they were going.
Really ????? where is your verifiable information??????
There is still no new evidence to suggest Marsh told B33 where he was going or how he was going to get there.
I do not believe I ever said they were hiding what they were doing.
Marsh was never specific about moving or where to.
I see and hear nothing in this Video to indicate otherwise,
A simple statement of are you on the SE corner of the Fire With the rate of spread where the hell would that be. OR were they near the last place they were known to be Near there brake spot which was also on the SE corner of the old burn.
You keep saying B33 didn’t see them but his own statement at 1610 states on the radio he could see the crew but they did not look comfortable where they were he was then talking with the IC The rest of the statements by Marsh were non committal.
There is nothing else to say I am tired of telling you the same thing over and over.
Show Me your evidence__________
Bob, you reference B33’s alleged “own statement at 1610 states on the radio he could see the crew but they did not look comfortable where they were he was then talking with the ICT,” but that statement was NEVER made by B33’s John Burfiend. It just wasn’t, and, if you doubt me, consider asking John himself. Surely you know him? He’s been around for quite some time.
While I appreciate that some anonymous person on the internet – WTKTT – says that the statement or a similar one was made, that doesn’t make such a thing actually true. Perhaps you remember when WTKTT claimed to be hearing Willis mutter something very specific at one of the first press conferences, and Rocksteady had to swoop in and correct WTKTT and WTKTT’s precision ears? I mean, crap, Rocksteady has been working outside around noisy stuff all his life, such that you’d think he has a bit of bum hearing at this point, but even his ears were good enough to correct WTKTT’s listening skills. No offense to WTKTT, of course. His skills, in my view, lie in other serious areas. 🙂 Sorry, but there was no 1610 statement by John Burfiend stating that “they did not look comfortable.”
B33 days division Alpha contacted him and said they were going down there escape route to their SZ. YIN
True but no further info—-
Unless we as Elizabeth Assume and add all the rest of the what they were saying. From their Rest area they could have gone several different directions ( escape Routs) all down to a SZ..
Ill be a little more precise for Elizabeth.
1. across the black back to the north down the trail the came upin the black to some Black area.
2′ Down from there rest area to a better open black area say near the Fire origin.
3. Down the 2 track off the back side and into a large SZ called desert.
4. down the 2 track all the way to the Helms Ranch
5. Down the 2 track to the Brush filled canyon which in no ones real world was a escape route–unmarked uncut no trail to the Helms Ranch.
So several choices and the IC was told and told B33 they were in the black and safe as Frisby also discussed and was told by Marsh.
And they took the worst possible choice off the fire into a brush field where no one in a plane could possibly see them.
And really truly never explained to any one exactly what they were doing
To any one including B33.
No one has ever said they were given specifics as to where the crew was or was headed NO ONE.
That’s my evidence Elizabeth.
And yes you can see 1 or more Fire Fighters from the air if they are in open areas, Ridge lines or in the black the more as in 18-20 from 2 miles away in the mountains you can spot hunters in red in open country over a mile away..
Spot on.
Reply to calvin post on November 11, 2014 at 4:06 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> B33 days division Alpha contacted him and said they
>> were going down there escape route to their SZ. YIN
I’d still love to know what Norval Tyler was telling ADOSH about the Arizona Forestry’s Dispatch Center’s ability to ‘record air traffic’. ADOSH didn’t do enough ‘followup’ in their interview with him to ascertain whether AZD really did have recordings of Air-To-Ground traffic for June 30, 2013… or NOT.
But regardless… even if that radio call actually took place ( No one else has ever reported hearing it over the popular Air-To-Ground channel )… it still didn’t tell Burfiend much at all.
There is no evidence that John Burfiend would have had any idea what Marsh was really telling him… or where this supposed ‘Safety Zone’ was or that ‘escape route’ entailed.
That simply wasn’t something Burfiend was aware of and would not have helped him know any actual ‘locations’ at all.
If Marsh really expected Burfiend to ‘do something’ with that information… it was up to Marsh to be ‘less obtuse’ and EXPLAIN exactly what he was talking about. Marsh (apparently) didn’t do that.
Serial misrepresentations by Elizabeth seem par for the course. Here’s a relevant quote from Burfiend: “They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re
comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can
be placed WITH them.”
Please stop simply throwing out misstatement after misstatement. Other than misstating the facts that are known, misstating basic physical facts, making odd statements about rates of progress through dense chaparral, we get to the repeated personal attacks and the betrayal of communications imo clearly intended to be private. Not a pretty picture.
Again, Fred, NOBODY other than WTKTT, whose hearing even Rocksteady has successfully challenged (no offense to Rocksteady, but he has long had a relatively noisy outdoor job), has claimed to have heard Burfiend say in those video clips “They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.”
Presumably nobody other than WTKTT actually hears it b/c Burfiend never said it. If you doubt me, consider just asking him directly, and you’ll get the same answer.
Trying to lump a number of identifiably different posters as one “Fred” is as impressive as the rest of your comments, Elizabeth.
Yet you aren’t denying it, Fred. 🙂
I most certainly am not “Fred,” whoever you are claiming “Fred” to be. I also have an identifiable writing style, as do all the other regular posters here. Making seemingly paranoid claims about this “Fred” is more poor form, and yet again reflective of what imo is your lack of credibility as a commenter here.
As a very close friend of Fred’s Yes Elizabeth I know your attacks and phone calls to destroy him.
So I can tell you straight out RTS/Fred is not SR or any one else on here.
I had permission to say that by the way…..
You can stop making an ASS of your self and go play on your own Blog we are all tired and disgusted with you here.
You have tried to discredit me since you cant attack me personally I am Tired of it and You are
irrelevant.
Oh, Bob. There you go attacking again. Perhaps you have not noticed that I actually do not care about your view of me, particularly now that you have made your comment about pills and alcohol. People who are paying attention know who Fred is. His “suicide” comment as the “anonymous former R-3 Hotshot Superintendent” crossed a line, and, if you don’t see that, I cannot help you. I don’t know if it was the stroke or what, but I actually do not care.
And the real Elizabeth just showed up.
HaHaHaHaHaHa
SR,
You are wasting your breath with Elizabeth. How do I know this? Because I am NOT WTKTT, as well. nuf said.
Copy.
I do not remember that incident , your honor!!!
I am not saying I did or did not, my memory is fading just about as fast as my hearing and eyesight…
I have had an extremely busy summer with fires in British Columbia and Northwest Territories, followed by numerous other more fun tasks (elk season 🙂 ) that occupied my time and energy.
I rarely hop on here anymore, as it seems like a lot of the debate is a repition of other comments from months ago…
However, I am still very interested in this tragic event… I want to know why, how, WHO, that it occurred… I already know where and when…
Ah, my bad, I do now remember teh incident you speak of Elizabeth…. You must be younger, with a better memory than I… 🙂
😉
I have never claimed that what I am hearing at the start of that VLAT SPLIT video is, word for word, what is being said…
…but I stand by every transcription I have published of it, including what SR has quoted above.
That IS what I am hearing at the start of the video… and I am ALSO absolutely sure that the ‘call sign’ that proceeds it was ‘Bravo 33’.
That would make the ‘speaker’ John Burfiend.
I have also said time and time again that the only way to verify what was happening there is for someone to re-interview the parties involved and ASK them if that really what is being said there.
Burfiend seems to have finished his statement with….
“Call them and ask them if DIVS is WITH them”.
THAT is what Bravo 33 needed to know at that moment and sure enough… just 13 seconds after Burfiend requested someone do that… someone did that exactly thing.
The very next transmission is the start of that ‘Granite Mountain… what’s your STATUS right now?” call circa 4:12 PM which then led to Marsh’s ‘obtuse’ responses and his even his eventual ‘dodge’ of the question “Are you with Granite Mountain right now?”.
Marsh never answered that direct question.
It was either because he didn’t hear the question clearly… or he was intentionally choosing to NOT reveal his actual location to whoever it was that was asking him.
Isn’t it amazing?
Here we are… more than a YEAR after the event… and after TWO full ( highly funded ) investigations… and we still don’t know for sure if some guys in an airplane actually ever performed an ‘eyes on’ visual check of Granite Mountain.
THAT is what should be jumping out at people here.
It’s a simple question.
DID Bravo 33 ever really go and actually SEE where Granite Mountain was located… or did they NOT?
The evidence ( if you believe anything the SAIT had to say ) still points in BOTH directions.
I’ve pointedly stayed out of these discussions about what’s being said on the videos when what’s being said is not clear because of audio noise, etc.
My ear is not that good.
But at this point, because of all this convo, I would to at least know what we are talking about.
Which video is this in and where in the video is it?
Marti… see a new parent comment up above that has the name of the video, and a reprint of my own transcription ( which I still would bet money is accurate ).
It needed to be a new parent comment with maximum horizontal space or the formatting or the transcript gets messy.
Got it. Thx.
Some ‘qualifiers’ for the comment above.
I actually butchered the King’s English a little up there.
I said…
>> I have never claimed that what I am hearing at the
>> start of that VLAT SPLIT video is, word for word,
>> what is being said…
Butchered the King’s English there.
I certainly stand by my own transcripts… but I realize that is not going to be ‘word for word’ what someone ELSE might think THEY are hearing. Once again… YOUR mileage may vary.
>> I also said…
>>
>> That IS what I am hearing at the start of the video… and
>> I am ALSO absolutely sure that the ‘call sign’ that
>> proceeds it was ‘Bravo 33′.
The call sign I believe is ACTUALLY heard in the audio itself is ‘ASM2’. ASM2 was ‘Bravo 33’ that day.
Using the canard of “too sensitive” as a justification for redactions is dishonest. Outside of video of the deployment site itself with their bodies present (which will never be shown), that excuse does not fly. We already crossed the bridge of “too sensitive” when we heard their voices calling for help when that video was released in December (and I know that was tough). Nothing else released now is going to be more sensitive than that. The only thing that is “too sensitive” now (for some people) is the truth. It is time for this piecemeal drip-drip-drip of information to end. These agencies that are playing fast and loose with FOI requests need to be slapped down hard.
Agree. I think that also, at this point, applies to the “privacy” justification.
You say, “These agencies that are playing fast and loose with FOI requests need to be slapped down hard.”
I’m wondering who, at this point, has the authority/jurisdiction/responsibility to do that slap down.
When a federal agency obstructs a state OSH investigation, what kind of precedents apply?
Can this kind of thing trigger an OSHA investigation or something like that?
I just don’t know the legalities/precedents/whatever for this kind of thing.
I suppose another agency could get involved – seems unlikely. But if someone is not compliant with FOI requests, I assume the recourse would be to go to court. When someone is violating the law, that is your recourse. Time-consuming, yes. But these agencies should not be allowed to thumb their noses at the public.
M2U00264 (1minute 40 seconds)
(unidentified speaker)Can we/ Do we have a couple of engines holding in place at the BSR?
(Second speaker Cordis?) I’ll send one that way
1. Is that what you all hear?
2. Who is speaking?
3. Do I hear the name Eric is the background (non radio) traffic just before the “i’ll send one that way”?
Calvin, I don’t hear it, but that’s not saying much. 🙂 (You know how I feel about audios…. 😉 ) Sorry I can’t be useful here.
Marti… see a new parent comment up above about this.
Yes… that appears to be what is being said… but there is MORE.
The conversation is between SPGS1 Gary Cordes and Task Force 2 Leader ( Trainee ) Tyson Esquibel.
Cordes is telling Esquibel to make SURE at least one engine is sent over to the Boulder Springs Ranch and to tell that Engine to be sure and ‘watch’ for Granite Mountain to arrive there and to be sure they ‘get out’ safely.
I will comment 1 more time.
I said on the 18th of October that this video was out there and being reviewed soon to be released.
Again last Monday the 3rd I told you the video would be released in the next few days.
Bingo Oct. 7th the video is released. I got the information if certain people want to call them rumors
fine not important I was right and the rest of the information will also come out sooner or later.
Thanks to those that believed me I do have reliable sources that I trust.
I, for one, still hope your sources are right about the video which contains all/part of that ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed that SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley himself says was officially ‘alleged’ ( by mulitiple witnesses ).
That would be an important addition to the body of evidence that Arizona Foresty and the US Forest Service just blantanly proved they have always been ‘withholding’.
As of Saturday morning… there is now no question they have ALWAYS been withholding information in their possession from families of the men that died AND from the very people charged ( by law ) with investigating that entire Yarnell incident.
If Aaron Hulburd did not have the GM intra-crew frequency… and a video DOES exist which captures all/part of the alleged ‘argument’… then it really must be from either Brendan McDonough OR any of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were tasked with moving all FOUR of the GM vehicles that day.
Bob,
It’s always been clear that, not only are you personally incredibly experienced and credible, but that you’re still actively linked in to people with valuable information as well. And, in the valuable position that, since you are retired, you can speak your mind.
It’s unfortunate that someone seems to be trying to cause more confusion by contesting that.
I do think it is very interesting that unofficial reports, pre-release, of what was in these videos may in some cases have differed from the videos that were, in fact, released. That’s interesting primarily because the info you have shared has been so on-target over time that I really do feel there is more information that hasn’t yet come out publicly.
I have been told there is more to these videos just released than we have seen and
others including family members have seen the entire Video not in little sections.
As with the BR statements the Video was redacted and there is where the Radio information lies. Will it see the light of day? Only if the media keeps pushing.
The other recording is in the hands of a family member. Will they release it or is it in the files of a Lawyer for the law suit that I do not know. The written evidence that supports the above is in the written redactions. We need to see those?????
Mr Powers. Thanks for your many contributions to this ongoing discussion.
As you say above “others including family members have seen the entire Video not in little sections”
I asked last night about the comment made by B33 stating “it sounds like they were working umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to you” (M2U00267)
Their is confusion as to whether B33 actually saw GM or not. But the statement above implies that B33 is passing on intel that he has HEARD and not SEEN. Does that make sense? And I know that we have discussed this issue many times, but these newest videos have new audio and we can hear for ourselves the conversations that were being recorded. But only partially. I wonder what other comments were recorded (and edited) that might explain why B33 was passing on information that was communicated to him. Who told him that intel?
Calvin… good point. Interesting phrasing there on Burfiend’s part. ‘Sounds like’ is not the same as ‘I saw them’.
It is still unbelievable after two official investigations we would still have to wonder whether Bravo 33 really did do an actual ‘eyes on’ visual check on Granite Mountain in the crucial 4:10 to 4:16 PM timeframe… but I’m afraid that’s the case.
No one involved with either investigation seemed to be able to ever clarify even this one simple but VERY important point.
There is still more ‘discovery’ that has yet to take place on this point.
I still think someone needs to have another interview with Burfiend and actually ask him ALL of the right questions this time.
Calvin we need more study here I still believe that B33 was passing on what he knew from 40 min. or so earlier he did ask if they were on the SE side of the fire when they were preparing to deploy and Marsh answered affirmative. Again I caution that at 1600 they were also on the SE corner of the fire line, so they had moved basically south almost a mile and were in brush at a new location and the fire had reached that location which again would be on the SE corner of the new fire line. So a lot of interpolation here and that same SE corner was moving fast and past the Helms Ranch. That corner ended up at least 3/4 of a mile from the Deployment site.
So I don’t know what B33 was understanding the old location he saw them at, or near Helms Ranch which was also a raging inferno at that time Was B33 referring to where he last saw them???
Lack of spending time to get more info during the statement process.
The John Burfiend statement under discussion in one of the Hulburd Helmet-Cam video clips came AFTER the 1639 MAYDAY sequence.
Mr. Powers… you are absolutely correct.
This was AFTER Eric Marsh had ‘Affirmed’ to John Burfiend that they were, at that moment, on the SOUTH side of the fire.
If John Burfiend was, in any way ( whether through radio como or a visual sighting at ANY time that day ) aware of where the ‘anchor point’ was and where GM had been working…
…then to suddenly be faced with a verbal ‘Affirmation’ from Marsh that they were on the SOUTH side of the fire as it was at 1639… just about anyone with those two pieces of information in their head ( where he was BEFORE and where he was NOW ) would probably use the same words we now hear John Burfiend using as his ‘best guess’ about where they were.
That includes assuming that in order to get from where they WERE… to where they just ‘affirmed’ they were at 1639… then that had to involve some kind of DOWNHILL travel segment.
That’s all Burfiend was doing in the video clip in question.
He was giving his ‘best guess’ as to their actual location.
It is STILL very important to KNOW ( for sure and certain ) whether Bravo 33 ever actually went and did an ‘eyes on’ VISUAL check on Granite Mountain circa 4:10 to 4:16 PM.
The SAIR would still have us believe that they OFFERED to go do that… but OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and said it wasn’t necessary because he was SURE they were ‘in the black’.
The Air-To-Air channel radio captures indicates something else.
The Air-To-Air captures indicate that they DID go and perform this ‘eyes on’ check, regardless of whether OPS1 Todd Abel ever said what the SAIR says, or not.
Elizabeth,
You’ve been told multiple times that you should get some practical exposure to some basic physical facts before trying to engage, at this point. This statement to Bob Powers, “So tell me, Bob, when, exactly, after 4:00 p.m. would B33 have SEEN GM on the fire, given that we know exactly where B33 was (from the Air Study videos) during the relevant time frames, and given that you SURELY know how hard it is to randomly see someone from the air, particularly when you are a mile or more away at the OTHER end of the fire at the time that you are allegedly seeing that other person or their crew far far far away from you (as you are in the air)?” is a classic example.
Have you ever even been outdoors in the southwest? Given where GM was before they dropped into the bowl, seeing them from the air would have been easy enough. Even when people are not exposed along a point of prominence, you can watch them through clear air at even greater distances, particularly if there is any movement.
Unfortunately, until you get a handle on some of this, it is so difficult to separate these basic mistakes from any valid observations that you might occasionally make that your posts overall do nothing but create confusion.
They wear YELLOW a crew of 18 to 20 in the black or in a line on a ridge would stand out like a big flag from 2miles away. Just saying,,,,,,,
To me, this ties into the visual foreshortening and progress through chaparral points. Time spent in the physical environment makes some of these things obvious.
Before some of you load up onto the conspiracy and “deliberate withholding” bus, perhaps you should check your facts. Remember that the FAMILIES of the DECEASED read this website, and they, for better or for worse, actually BELIEVE what you folks say, so I urge some of you to do better research before you assert things as fact or deem things as somehow evidence of withholding, missteps, gamesmanship, etc.
Here is one good example: WTKTT with ABSOLUTE CERTAINTY declared [inaccurately] below: “With regards to the continuing job of figuring out how badly REDACTED all these ‘new videos’ might be… I just noticed something REALLY odd about the first 3 videos which show the ‘burnout’ operation taking place on what appears to be Model Creek Road. ALL of these videos are pretty much the EXACT SAME LENGTH…. They are all basically not only EXACTLY 29 seconds long… They are all basically EXACTLY 29.80 seconds long. It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for this to have been achieved by human hands holding down shutter buttons on any digitial camera or smartphone. It definitely represents someone EDITING video clips and almost DECIDING that each of the final EDITED clips would be exactly 29.80 seconds.”
WTKTT declared ABSOLUTELY, as ABSOLUTE FACT, that the fact that all three of the first-listed newer-ish videos showing some burning operations on the NORTH end of the fire “definitely represent[s] someone EDiTING” the video clips because those clips are all exactly the same length of roughly 30 seconds (29.8 seconds).
WTKTT did not qualify what he said – he stated unequivocally that it “definitely” represents someone “EDITING” those video clips.
Well, here is the ACTUAL truth, contrary to WTKTT’s unequivocal assertions and that WTKTT could have figured out himself/herself with some quick research had he been interested in the truth as opposed to emotional statements alleging misdeeds or undisclosed, material shenanigans: Many of the WFFs who have government-funded or government-provided cell phones only have the basic, old-school “flip-open” cell phones (because that is all that the government will pay for). Some models of those flip-open cell phones can ONLY take videos up to 30 seconds (29.8 seconds, actually) in length. So, if you are taking a video with one of those cell phones, it is going to BEEP and stop recording automatically when the video you are taking hits 30 seconds (which apparently is actually only 29.8 seconds). Then you have to start filming a NEW video of yet another 29.8 seconds in length.
Nobody EDITED the length of those three videos, WTKTT. That was the LONGEST video that particular cell-phone camera could TAKE.
And now I have wasted 15 minutes of my life that I could have instead spent responding to those of you who want a citation to the video showing Paul Musser (rather than just looking at the videos and finding Paul Musser yourself)….. Sigh…. way to utilize my skill set.
>> Nobody EDITED the length of those three videos,
>> WTKTT. That was the LONGEST video
>> that particular cell-phone camera could TAKE.
So… now YOU are saying that YOU know for ABSOLUTE FACT that is the explanation for why 3 separate videos are exactly 29.8 seconds in length?
Show me your proof.
WHO was the firefighter taking those three videos?
WHAT was the exact make and model of the ‘candy-bar’ phone YOU now assert ( as ABSOLUTE FACT ) that he was using?
Got a news flash for ya, counselor.
The older candy-bar phones you are talking about would normally NOT use the file naming convention that is represented by these 3 videos.
That’s a MODERN convention with the ‘better’ phones that are capable of taking/storing videos of ANY length.
Also we are being told these videos are all from the Helmet Cam not a mix and match of Helmet cam and Cell phones. They all came from the same camera….
Exactly. See what I wrote just below.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 11, 2014 at 8:23 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Also we are being told these videos are all from the Helmet Cam
>> not a mix and match of Helmet cam and Cell phones. They all
>> came from the same camera….
Actually… DESPITE what ‘we are being told’… I think it’s pretty obvious that those first 3 videos ( all magically 29.8 seconds long ) of that ‘burnout’ operation ( supposedly on Model Creek Road but not verified yet ) were NOT taken by Aaron Hulburd or his Helmet Camera.
I believe Hulburd’s edited footage begins with the filenames that are prefixed with ‘MU’.
That being said… I also do NOT believe these first 3 videos with the ‘20130630xxx’ filenames were taken with a ‘candy-bar’ phone.
The resolution ( and audio ) is too good for a ‘candy-bar’ phone and I believe that file naming convention proves it was a more MODERN type of video-capable phone and/or digital camera.
Once again… we have ‘insufficient data’ from the very people who have been withholding all this information for so long now.
We still don’t even know the make/model of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera. We are still being ‘kept in the dark and fed mushrooms’.
Fortunately… we know how to find mushrooms pretty damn good.
Interesting why did they not say that? Two or more separate recordings????
Interesting catch.
Thanks!
As you watch the videos I am seeing a difference in the Head Cam,
I think it went to a hand held un mounted from the helmet at or before they got into the UTVs same camera just not on the helmet. Am I right?
Probably.
There are moments in some of these videos where it even looks like Hulburd took his Helmet OFF and was holding it in various positions WHILE the camera was still running.
At the END of that original 7 minute and 49 second Helmet-Cam video that had the MAYDAY radio call captures in it… Hulburd does, in fact, take his helmet off and places it on top of his truck while he was reaching into the back seat of his truck for another radio. He is responding to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s recorded ‘request’ there to fire up another handheld to be sure they capture all the radio traffic they can.
That 7 minute and 49 second video ENDS with what appears to be Hulburd reaching up to turn his Helmet Camera OFF.
The newly released videos appear to prove that is NOT what happened.
It now appears that Hulburd did NOT reach up to the roof of his truck to turn the camera OFF… he was reaching up to get the helmet and just put it BACK on his head ( with the camera still running and never turning off ).
One of the newly released videos actually STARTS with Hulburd now walking AWAY from his truck and then following KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell west on Shrine Road just moments after that other MAYDAY video ends.
But there is some footage ( and some radio traffic? ) ‘edited out’ at that point.
Unless Hulburd turned his Helmet-Camera OFF as he put it back on his head and started following Yowell to the west… and then turned it back ON again about 20-30 seconds later…
…then there are at least 20-30 seconds of active video ( and radio captures ) ‘cut out’ of the released footage just at that point alone.
>> Remember that the FAMILIES of the DECEASED read this website,
Of course they do. ( and I would HOPE so ).
Before you launch into your daily didactics you seem addicted to… remember that you can pretty much forget anything else that has happened so far with regards to us establishing how much evidence is being withheld as we have been having this discussion.
On Saturday morning ( November 7, 2014 ), the US Forestry Service and Arizona Forestry just proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that every suspicion that anyone has ever had about evidence being ‘withheld’ ( family members included )… is TRUE.
The ‘family members’ don’t need US or this discussion to prove that information is ( and always has been ) being withheld from them AND the people that were charged ( by law ) to investigate why their loved ones died.
Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service just proved that all by themselves.
Sorry, counselor, hate to ruin your day after you just “wasted” your precious 15 minutes schooling us about the “ACTUAL truth,” after wasting a lot of OUR time yesterday.
You seems to have forgotten one very important ACTUAL truth.
These videos were not taken with a cellphone.
Try doing YOUR OWN “quick research.”
Furthermore, just to let you on to another little ACTUAL truth.
ALL of the videos I have bothered to take the time to download (which is most of them taken on this fire) were taken with iphones–either generation 4 or 5–or up-to date samsungs, except for the ones taken with a Go-Pro (which these by Aaron may have also been filmed with, but the one actual video actually published last spring had no camera metadata attached to it), a fairly expensive camera.
I have never seen a video taken with the ancient flip-phones you are so certain those poor fire-fighters use.
That’s an ACTUAL truth.
Correction.
All the cellphone videos………
A number of other videos were taken with various cameras, also.
I’m going to post something here up at the top that I posted a bit down below as part of a convo I was having with WTKTT about what in the world is going on right now regarding the release of these videos and what that says about the game being played by the USFS and Arizona Department of Forestry vs the rest of us.
At 1:55 this morning I wrote:
Good thinking.
I’m not sure how to write what I’m about to write.
I keep trying to reference some other comparable fatality fire situation.
Wherein the USFS was connected to a fatality fire that somebody else was in charge of.
The Steep Corner Fire and the Esperanza Fire come to mind. But on those fires USFS employees were killed.
This is the only fire I know of where “non-USFS employees” (even tho they were a federally certified national resource IHC) were killed, while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved.
In the Steep Corner Fire, I don’t think the USFS would have uttered a peep if it hadn’t been the case that an IHC superintendent raised a big complaint about the conditions on the fire and very loudly refused to accept their assignment to it.
In the Esperanza Fire, at first the USFS went along with the wink-wink-nod-nod “joint” investigation that basically blamed the USFS crew for their deaths until the public outcry was so great that they went back and did their own investigation of the CAL-Fire-managed fire. Which leads me to this.
[And now that I’m reposting this, I’m remembering South Canyon/Storm King was a fire “managed” by Nobody-Knew-Who–was it a Smokejumper or the BLM? And THAT was a bone of contention in the Investigation(s)]
As I have periodically posted/ranted, I think the dirty little secret in all of this has to do with the decision BY SOMEONE, late in the evening of June 29, 2013 to, after NONE OF THE REQUIRED ANALYSES WERE DONE, order a SHORT Type 2 Incident Management Team when it should have been apparent that this fire had the capability of getting really big and really nasty the next day.
Thus setting in motion a June 30 day of CHAOS in which the fire overpowered the IMT and everyone fighting it by MILES, and it’s a complete MIRACLE that more people were not maimed or killed.
I think that’s what AZForestry and USFS don’t want anybody to see.
This fire is an indictment against all the comfortable higher-ups in Phoenix who made that decision and left a WHOLE LOT of people on the ground in Yarnell to suffer/deal with the consequences themselves.
Including the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yes, it appears Granite Mountain made a fatal decision. [As have other crews on other fires.]
But I do believe, given their prior relatively stellar performances on previous fires, if the Yarnell Hill Fire had been properly managed by a team resourced properly enough to manage it, using strategies and tactics properly designed to do so, Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there to hang themselves without anybody even knowing where they were and what they were doing.
That’s what I think is being PROTECTED.
And, now that I think about it, when I say “while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved,” I think that includes Mike Dudley, the USFS employee/investigator of the Interagency Serious Accident Investigation Team.
So, I also think that, not only AZ Forestry’s negligent decision to resource the fire with an insufficient SHORT Type 2 team is being PROTECTED by all these USFS/AZF fusterclucking dances, so is the SAIT investigation–i.e Mike Dudley.
Perfectly possible.
People tend to forget that above and beyond the loss of life that weekend… literally HUNDREDS of people have filed very expensive lawsuits for DAMAGES as a result of everything that happened.
In other words… Arizona Forestry has ALWAYS had more to worry about than the fact that 19 firefighters died in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
They very well could be found responsible for all that property damage and have to pay every dollar being requested.
That’s a shitload of money.
Even if a judge decides that the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits cannot legally proceed… that still leaves all the property damage lawsuits to contend with.
We are still talking about millions and millions of dollars that might have to be paid out because of the ineptness of Arizona Forestry.
With regards to the continuing job of figuring out how badly REDACTED all these ‘new videos’ might be… I just noticed something REALLY odd about the first 3 videos which show the ‘burnout’ operation taking place on what appears to be Model Creek Road.
ALL of these videos are pretty much the EXACT SAME LENGTH.
I mean… the first two are within 1/100th of second of each other and
the third one is only ( at most ) 1/10 of a second off either of the first two.
They are all basically not only EXACTLY 29 seconds long…
They are all basically EXACTLY 29.80 seconds long.
It is absolutely IMPOSSIBLE for this to have been achieved by human hands
holding down shutter buttons on any digitial camera or smartphone.
It definitely represents someone EDITING video clips and almost DECIDING
that each of the final EDITED clips would be exactly 29.80 seconds.
The proof is in the EXIF metadata contained within each of these ‘videos’.
Video 0630131532
EXIF Duration: 29.81
EXIF Track duration: 29.80
Video 0630131533
EXIF Duration: 29.88
EXIF Track Duration: 29.87
Video 0630131534
EXIF Duration: 29.74
EXIF Track Duration: 29.73
More about these videos later…
Some of these redactions are appropriate (i.e. footage of the bodies), but most are not. Right now the media is giving them a pass on the redactions, characterizing them as being of the first type. No way the redaction at the end of 264 (which presumably leads into the previously released 265) falls into the first category. Their behavior with this material leads to the inescapable conclusion there is explosive material here. Every effort should be made to ensure that virtually the entire video (minus the part with the bodies) sees the light of day.
For Fred and others:
Your comments about the REDACTIONS of the videos goes back to what I have tried to explain to all of you (to much snark from a few of you, I might add). Allow me to try again: John Dougherty claims that he shook the relatively newish videos loose from the USFS via a FOIA request that JD made to which the USFS has now responded. If that is honestly true, then JD should have received FROM the USFS when he received HIS copies of those videos on a CD directly FROM the USFS a letter FROM the USFS *TO* JD explaining every single one of those redactions in detail. That letter will explain what the USFS withheld from JD and WHY.
You threw that against the wall yesterday and it didn’t stick.
John Dougherty has already said his original FOIA request has NOT YET been fulfilled in any way.
Can’t you READ?
You might also note Fred has not entered the conversation here as of this morning so one of you is masquerading as FRED???????
I know better…………..
I am Spartacus! (Sorry, couldn’t help myself…)
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 10, 2014 at 7:11 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that ran out of room.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Just went thru the news release you posted
>> The last paragraph by the Lawyer is a little telling as it says the
>> Families did not view or were contacted by the state of the release.
That news release ( the USATODAY article ) is here…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
The relevant part from the thread below is…
From the article…
——————————————-
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
Families were concerned that the videos might show the bodies of their loved ones at the deployment site. They have asked that no such footage or photographs be made public. But they were torn, too, because the videos and accompanying audio also might give them new information.
——————————————-
This article from a reputable news source states, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were INFORMED that these videos were going to go public WEEKS before it happened.
That ( and the paragraph that follows ) automatically implies that the families were also told WHAT was going to be released… and WHAT it might contain.
This all (apparently) happened WEEKS ago.
There is also THIS in the USATODAY article…
“Families were concerned that the videos might show the bodies of their loved ones at the deployment site.”
Of course they were. Totally understandable… and it seems those concerns WERE met with all the ‘redactions’ in the released material…
…but how in the hell did USATODAY know this to even be making such a statement?
They don’t ‘source’ that statement at all.
Is this something that J.P. Vicente himself told USATODAY?
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> But what are all these statements from family members stating they
>> saw the Videos in there homes. It had to be a early showing that they
>> saw and were not told it would be released.
>>
>> How did they get the Videos to there homes and when?????
>>
>> The State had no time to contact and review the Videos with
>> Families spread all over the place much less Lawyers.
>>
>> Yet we are hearing the family members reviewed the Videos.
>>
>> Something don’t fit here at all…………….
Even the USATODAY article doesn’t make it clear what really happened here.
Someone needs to do a followup interview with this J.P. Vicente guy and get the ‘real’ story on what HE knew, and WHEN, and HOW he knew it… and then what he did after that.
Example: Is it possible this J.P. Vicente guy only told SOME of the family members… and ( hence ) the confusion on the part of the lawyers for SOME of the family members?
Is it conceivable that even the fire community has drawn a ‘line in the sand’ in their own confused minds and this J.P. Vicente guy ONLY informed families that have NOT retained a lawyer?
Something is definitely ‘fishy’ here….
…and someone needs to break out the tackle box and GO FISHING.
Remember, in all of this, the USA Today is nothing more than a repost of the AZ Central article.
Therefore, see below what I wrote about that AZ Central article, Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, and their investigation.
Marti… yes… you are right.
Somehow, yesterday, I thought the additional information regarding J.P. Vicente ‘warning’ the families was only in the USATODAY article but that same information is, in fact, in the original AZCENTRAL article.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
It also says ( at the bottom ) that there were two other ‘contributing reporters’ to this story. Maybe one of these ‘contributors’ was the one that actually interviewed this J.P. Vicente guy…
“Republic reporters Weldon B. Johnson and Richard Ruelas contributed to this story.”
Exactly.
And so the questions you are asking aren’t how did USA Today get the info about the Prescott Captain warning them, and them (or some of them) knowing what, in fact he was talking about (i.e. implying they had seen the videos) and thus being concerned about that stuff going public,
but
how did AZCentral gain all that info
and what else did they know
and who, from AZCentral knew what and when did they know it and how did they find it out
and how/when did they interview the families
and how many families, etc, knew how much and how many didn’t know whatever
and how important do they (AZCentral) think all of this is
and how much of all of this is Yvonne Wingett Sanchez’ work and how much of it is somebody else’s work
and wtf is going on with this whole thing and who knows about it and how is it that they know??
Is that a pretty good compendium of the questions this thing raises in your opinion, WTKTT?
I think it sounds pretty good.
Oh yes and who in the world is “this J.P. Vicente guy…” and just
WHAT???????????????????????????????
I’m having to carefully translate what I’m actually thinking into words that are fit for public consumption and won’t get me booted off this website.
Marti… I know exactly what you mean.
I think ( for myself, anyway ), my urge to end any new postings regarding this new ‘evidence’ dump with strings of four letter words really boils down to this.
On Saturdady… Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service just proved beyond ANY shadow of a doubt that they have ALWAYS been ( and still ARE ) withholding crucial evidence they have in their possession related to everthing that happened in Yarnell that weekend.
They are withholding this information from both the faimiles of the poor men who died…AND have ALWAYS been withholding it from the people who were charged ( by law ) to investigate this incident.
Here comes that urge to just start typing four letter words again. Gotta go.
>> Marti asked…
>>
>> Is that a pretty good compendium of the questions this
>> thing raises in your opinion, WTKTT?
Yep…. but after a long day of looking hard at this new evidence, dealing with people suddenly posting here again who seem to be off their medication, and discovering that no statement could be more descriptinve than…
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”…
…all I have left to say for today is…
shi49skda8$$!!#49gjh239##!!$%ksjhshi4059fuk3938010gdshi#
I think we’re on the same page.
See above.
This is definitely not what I had planned for this day.
And tomorrow I really need to do what I have planned for it.
When I sinned off went to the cabinet and had a couple of pills
BV & 7 and went to bed in a good mood this morning
Hopefully not answering attacks on my credibility,
WTKTT and Marti you put a lot of good input to the screen last night …………….THANKS
Good Morning!
It was so much fun waking up to our “Very Concerned Schoolteacher” putting her foot back into it!
Here’s another question I’m throwing out there, just in case somebody else may now know the answer.
I’m totally into doing my own homework if somebody else hasn’t already done it.
In the AZ Central article there is this:
“Roxanne Warneke, whose husband, Billy Warneke, was one of the 19 men killed, watched the videos in her Marana home. For her, there still are questions. Would the redacted portions have provided those answers?
In one of the video clips, just 29 seconds long, a man says, ‘I don’t have anybody else that I feel comfortable sending that way.’
Warneke says that sounds as if someone had specifically sent the Granite Mountain crew into the area where they were trapped and killed.”
Does anybody know which video this refers to?
And, PS
I don’t remember how to download a Youtube video.
Can anybody refresh my memory on that?
http://www.clipconverter.cc/
Works like a champ.
Thanks!
When you use clipconverter to download, do you use a particular setting or do you stay with the default setting?
I normally stick with the defaults… including the default ‘image quality’ panel that appears with various radio buttons for selection the SIZE of the download.
So it really is just…
Paste a valid YouTube video link into the “Media URL to Download’ box.
Click ‘Continue’ to the right of that input box.
On next panel… accept defaults just press the START button on the bottom left.
Video download prepares.
On Next Panel… ‘Download’ button appears.
Before you click ‘Download’… UNCHECK the little checkbox under the download button that says “Download with accellerator and get recommendation offers’
That is worthless and NOT NEEDED. It just complicates things.
So uncheck that box, then click download… and in a moment that standard “Where do want to save this on your computer?’ Dialog box appears. Pick a local DIR… and away you go.
Marti… it’s the FIRST video in the set of 21 new videos released.
Video 0630131533
Duration: 29 seconds
The quote comes at the very end and he says exactly what Roxanne Warneke says.
Full transcript will be posted shortly.
Hold the phone… sorry.
It IS the FIRST video in the new set released… but the FILENAME
of that FIRST video is 0630131532 and not the one with ’33’ on the end.
Full transcript for Video 0630131532 is still on the way, shortly.
Thanks!
Video 0630131532
Duration: 29 seconds
Location: Model Creek Road, Peeples Valley
Time: 1532 ( 3:32 PM )
—————————————————————————
+0:01
(Unknown 1 – Sounds like Darrell Willis): ?? We’ve got a vehicle in there.
+0:05
(Unknown 2): Yea. I copy. I just had my burner up… uh…
tryin’ to get out in front of it.
+0:11
(Unknown 1 – Sounds like Darrell Willis): Okay. We stopped
right here at the top. Want me to do it again?
+0:14
(Unknown 2): No. Uh… you need to get out and do some ??.
If we get another burner in here we can ??
+0:19
(Unknown 3 – Close to camera ): Now the wind’s shifted.
+0:23
(Unknown 4 – Close to camera): Firewall.
( Some background traffic here. Hard to make out ).
+0:24
(Unknown 2 – Same voice as up above): Yea… I copy. I don’t have
anybody else I feel comfortable sending that way.
+0:29
(Unknown – Sounds like OPS2 Paul Musser): Okay
——————————————————————————
It’s hard to say here… but my best guess is that the ‘Unknown 2’ speaker at the end who says “I don’t have anybody else I feel comfortable sending that way” COULD just be a reply to the “If we can get another burner in here” suggestion made a few seconds earlier.
However… it bothers me that the final ‘Okay’ in response to this “I don’t have anbody else” statement really, really sounds like OPS2 Paul Musser.
There is also some ‘background’ como just before that statement that is basically impossible to hear.
So I suppose the “I don’t have anybody else” response COULD also have been a response to something Paul Musser just asked… and Musser responds with ‘Okay’ at the end.
Perhaps this was the beginning of Paul Musser ( it is now 3:32 PM ) ‘casting around’ that day and looking for people to help in Yarnell.
10 minutes later… at 3:42 PM… Musser would then be making his ‘availablity check’ radio call out to Eric Marsh who would then say they were still ‘committed to the ridge… but try Blue Ridge’.
Thanks!
My video “ear” is pretty bad.
OK I”m going to post this to the top.
In a downstream convo about the reporting of these videos, WTKTT wrote, “There is whole ‘nother STORY that needs to be told here about exactly how all this really went down.”
In response to that I wrote:
“Truly.
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, the main investigator/writer for the AZ Central story, which is the basis for the AP story, has done some really good research/analysis/writing on this fire and the conflicted agency pretzel power-struggle relationships related to it.
I think she’s really serious about this thing, and she’s also brilliant, and does lots of HOMEWORK.
I don’t know if she reads us. I hope she does.
SOMEBODY besides us needs to know who took those helmetcam videos and the SIGNIFICANCE of that and of what is in them.
It’s impossible to tell, in that article, WHEN the interviews were done with the family members that led to the quotes included in it.
But, apparently she had sources who clued her in on that hedzup by that Prescott Fire Dept guy.
She knew the videos existed. She’s probably the person who triggered their FOIA request.
Most of her stuff lately has been about the AZ elections. But I can imagine her hunkering down regularly to scan Yarnell stuff. I think she knows way more than she lets on to.
I HOPE she is asking questions inside her mind, and among her also-concerned pals, about what this current jockeying between USFS, SAIT, AZF, the families, the public, and JD (and via him US) is all about.
And, I think it’s important to keep in mind, in the middle of all this STUFF, the POINT of this.
People are still being HURT by these games. This fire has not even been contained, seventeen long months after it ignited.
And DOLLARS are still being spent to fight this fire, including all the DOLLARS being spent to prevent anybody knowing what actually happened.
WTF is the USFS continuing to try to HIDE?
I can understand AZF trying to hide stuff. I think they screwed up massively.
But USFS????
None of their people are on “the chopping block.” A bunch of their people are, in fact, heroes who risked their lives trying to find/rescue Granite Mountain.
All the USFS people on this fire performed admirably
WHY are they throwing their own people under the bus, jeopardizing their (and their families, loved ones, and friends) mental and emotional well-being, impeding efforts to get to the truth so that future fire-fighters can learn from this. to, what, protect AZF???????
I really truly, right now, sitting here, don’t get it.
And I really hope Yvonne doesn’t either.
It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.
Marti said “It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.”
Good luck with that. My impression is that the USDA in-house lawyers are calling the shots on that, and it will therefore never, ever, ever happen. Not in a million years. Off the record, what the USDA lawyers are doing to the front-line guys like Frisby et al is just… unconscionable, in my personal opinion. But you already knew my view on that, Marti. 🙂
It really seems to be more about CONTROL than anything else ( the well being of any of their employees included ).
There must be a set of personalities ‘at the top’ in the USFS who just can’t bring themselves to admit that they don’t have CONTROL of the information.
Look at what just happened.
RATHER than simply comply with a valid, legal FOIA request for material that was pretty much already KNOWN to exist… they still had to come up with their own alternate PLAN to make it look like they were still in CONTROL of the information.
Instead of just releasing the material to the original FOIA requestor ( InvestigativeMEDIA ), they went through all these back-channels and enlisted Arizona Forestry to help them.
Their ‘plan’ was to get ‘out ahead of the story’, but still remain in CONTROL of the actual amount of information that was going to reach the public.
I thought it was ironic that the story which ran right BEFORE the Yarnell story tonight on the NBC Nightly News was the ‘news flash’ that just one simply email had been ‘uncovered’ with regards to the GM Key Ignition frap that no one had seen before.
This one single email proved that General Motors DID know about the key switch problems before they admitted to knowing about it… and now it looks like any number of GM executives are going to lose their jobs over just this one point… and perhaps be indicted for lying to Congress.
One simple email that was ‘withheld’ from an investigation that involved deaths… and it looks like heads are going to roll at GM.
Well… what about the US Forestry Service?
Why do they get a ‘free pass’ with regards to behavior that basically amounts to ‘obstructing legal investigations’?
If ADOSH had ALL of this material that is now just suddenly popping up on Arizona Forestry’s own website and/or ADOSH had been made fully aware of how involved in this incident people like Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell really were… then ADOSH could have reviewed all this material BEFORE they did their interviews and would have obtained a much more accurate picture of what happened that day.
It didn’t happen.
The information ( video evidence and a FULL list of key participants and witnesses ) was WITHHELD from them. On purpose.
Their lawful investigation was ‘hindered’ ( if not obstructed ) due to this behavior.
Do you think it might be possible that, given all this obstruction on the part of the USFS to an ADOSH investigation, there is any possibility ADOSH could find a way to instigate an OSHA investigation?
I have no idea what a state OSH can do when a federal agency obstructs one of their legally empowered and required investigations.
I’m also thinking whatever accommodation AZF may be trying to negotiate with ADOSH is going to be seriously negated by this whole thing.
I really appreciate what you are saying here.
And I’m just still totally stumped.
In my mind, at this point, the USFS has nothing to protect/control here, at this point in terms of their own employees. And, in my mind, nothing to protect/control in terms of AZF.
Is it possible that “they” (the upper-ups) think they need to protect/control something regarding the SAIT and the SAIR?
It seems, to my humble mind, obstructing a legally required State OSH investigation, which could result in even more serious consequences to them, including possibly an OSHA investigation, or who knows what other kind of federal investigation. is a pretty risky (and potentially seriously unpopular, in terms of PR) path to choose, when none of their employees did anything wrong and, in fact, were some of the heroes on this fire.
I just don’t see what they’re trying, seemingly at all costs to protect.
After writing the above, and sitting here staring at it, the only thing I can think of is that they’re trying to protect the SAIT/SAIR.
Which, I guess, could make some kind of sense.
That’s the only thing I can think of.
But I don’t think, in the long run, it’s going to work.
Marti… you may be right.
Reading everything above again it suddenly dawned on me that the thinking might be all BACKWARDS here.
No… it does NOT make any sense that the US Forestry Service would be jumping through so many nefarious hoops when it wasn’t even THEIR fire… THEY were not required to even investigate it… and THEIR employees who just happend to be there are not significantly ‘at risk’ for legal action… and even if they WERE… the FEDS have the whole ‘Sovereign Immunity’ protection thing.
However… what if this is just all about Arizona Forestry.
What if US Forestry is just simply agreeing to whatever Arizona Forestry has been telling them THEY want them to do at all times ( such as NOT supply all the evidence they have from their employees to any other Arizona State Agency like ADOSH ).
What if USFS was actually willing to let ADOSH have everything they were originally asking for… but Arizona Forestry did NOT… and Arizona Forestry was then able to ‘call the shots’ about what USFS was willing to do and how many redactions there needed to be to suit them.
It was Arizona Forestry’s way of being able to control what their own sister agency in their own state ( ADOSH ) was able to find out about THEIR State Run Fire.
I also don’t believe that USFS employee Mike Dudley’s involvement in all of this actually ended with release of the SAIR document.
I think he could have possibly remained the ‘point man’ on this between Arizona Forestry and the US Forest Service.
What if it was the US Forestry Service itself that turned to Arizona Forestry when that InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA was forwarded to THEM from Prescott National Forest… and the USFS people told Arizona Forestry…
“We have to fulfill this request. How do YOU want to handle it?”
“YOU tell US what you want to do here.”
Maybe it was then Arizona Forestry that decided to pull a ‘get out in front of the story’ move and pretend as if THEY had requested the information… but WITHOUT an actual FOIA request involved so USFS did not nave to ‘explain’ the redactions or what FOIA exemption clause was being ‘claimed’ for those extensive redactions?
It’s complicated.
WAY more complicated than it EVER had to be.
“Oh what a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive”.
The easiest thing to do was for everyone involved to have simply told the WHOLE truth from day one.
That is STILL what everyone should do here.
Just put on their big-boy pants, tell the TRUTH, get to the bottom of this, and do everything possible to make sure it never happens again.
Followup…
This ‘get out in front of the story’ move on Arizona Forestry’s part might have been a very clever move on their part… from a really sad and disgusting perspective.
I mean… look at what they just actually accomplished.
They just made it LOOK like they were ‘fully cooperating’ with a valid FOIA request… but WITHOUT having to actually file their own actual FOIA request.
They have now made it APPEAR as if all this evidence that has been withheld for so long has been validly released…. WITHOUT having to actually fulfill the original ( valid ) FOIA request(s) from any MEDIA outlet.
Arizona Forestry was most certainly NOT going to press them about supplying REASONS for all the ‘redactions’… or even demand to know what specific exemption clauses in FOIA they were ‘claiming’ for those ‘exemptions’.
Indeed… without a valid FOIA request… there was no obligation on the part of USFS to do that kind of ‘explaining’.
So NOW the information IS in the ‘possession’ of Arizona Forestry… but it’s the fully REDACTED remants of the original evidence with no explanations given for the redactions.
Arizona Forestry now has ‘cleansed’ copies of the evidence which they, in turn, can now use to fulfill any further Arizona Open Records requests to THEM… and they know it’s ‘sanitized’ according to their desires and can be given out to MEDIA people who are making those records requests.
Someone ( not AZF ) should still press for ANOTHER FOIA request to USFS for the exact same ORIGINAL EVIDENCE… and then demand an explanation for the redactions as USFS is required to do when fulfilling a valid FOIA request but still withholding parts of it.
I think InvestigativeMEDIA should NOT accept any material that Arizona Forestry now has in their possession as a valid fulfillment of the original FOIA request.
InvestigativeMEDIA ( and anyone else who originally requested ALL of this material ) should stick to their guns and demand that USFS still fulfill THEIR original requests.
It’s still a GAME that is being played here by Arizona Forestry in conjunction with their ‘parent company’… the US Forestry Service.
Good thinking.
I’m not sure how to write what I’m about to write.
I keep trying to reference some other comparable fatality fire situation.
Wherein the USFS was connected to a fatality fire that somebody else was in charge of.
The Steep Corner Fire and the Esperanza Fire come to mind. But on those fires USFS employees were killed.
This is the only fire I know of where “non-USFS employees” (even tho they were a federally certified national resource IHC) were killed, while a host of USFS employees were intimately involved.
In the Steep Corner Fire, I don’t think the USFS would have uttered a peep if it hadn’t been the case that an IHC superintendent raised a big complaint about the conditions on the fire and very loudly refused to accept their assignment to it.
In the Esperanza Fire, at first the USFS went along with the wink-wink-nod-nod “joint” investigation that basically blamed the USFS crew for their deaths until the public outcry was so great that they went back and did their own investigation of the CAL-Fire-managed fire.
Which leads me to this. As I have periodically posted/ranted, I think the dirty little secret in all of this has to do with the decision BY SOMEONE, late in the evening of June 29, 2013 to, after NONE OF THE REQUIRED ANALYSES WERE DONE, order a SHORT Type 2 Incident Management Team when it should have been apparent that this fire had the capability of getting really big and really nasty the next day.
Thus setting in motion a June 30 day of CHAOS in which the fire overpowered the IMT and everyone fighting it by MILES, and it’s a complete MIRACLE that more people were not maimed or killed.
I think that’s what AZForestry and USFS don’t want anybody to see.
This fire is an indictment against all the comfortable higher-ups in Phoenix who made that decision and left a WHOLE LOT of people on the ground in Yarnell to suffer/deal with the consequences themselves.
Including the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Yes, it appears Granite Mountain made a fatal decision.
But I do believe, given their prior relatively stellar performances on previous fires, if the Yarnell Hill Fire had been properly managed by a team resourced properly enough to manage it, using strategies and tactics properly designed to do so,
Granite Mountain wouldn’t have been left out there to hang themselves without anybody even knowing where they were and what they were doing.
That’s what I think is being PROTECTED.
Video M2U00267 (5 second through 14 second
B33 says “it sounds like they were working, umm, to the southeast away from the fire headed downhill is the best I can describe to ya”
1 Who is B33 giving this report to?
2 Who gave B33 the information that he is reporting?
We already know the answer to point “2,” Calvin, right? B33 HEARD Eric Marsh say where they were and where they were going.
This is the point I have made all along that Bob seems to really bristle at.
Marsh was not HIDING anything (sorry, Fred). At most, Marsh was communicating on the WRONG frequency, literally.
Maybe folks will start believing this point now that Calvin is bringing it up.
Again Elizabeth has no clue B33 Calvin was talking to The fire camp that asked him if he knew where they were. Remember he had stated earlier in a conversation with OPS that they did not look comfortable where they were Yes he saw them on the ridge.
but there was never any specific conversation as to them going any where specific.
Most of what marsh said was very non committal.
So HOW did B33 know, then, Bob? Answer Calvin’s question, Bob, if you are so sure that *I* am wrong. 🙂
We went thru this in a lot of detail there is no evidence that Marsh told
B33 where they were headed. The only info that B33 had was he saw the crew behind the ridge and they did not look comfortable he was asked to call them and marsh said they were just moving and were fine.
There was no other conversation with marsh and no proof there was.
You have pushed this before to the point that you were willing to promote that B33 was there lookout which was a fallacy.
You can have all kinds of day dreams but you need facts which you can not produce. I have I hope answered Calvin on several occasions including this one Marsh never told B33 where they were headed and B33 only knew where they were based on seeing them on the ridge from there on he had no clue as to where they went or if they moved.
Any thing else is pure speculation………….We spent a lot of time going over this a couple of months ago.
Bob, you are honestly saying that B33 only knew where GM was because B33 – at some time that you are not sharing with us, Bob – SAW where GM was, without Marsh pointing themselves out? You are suggesting that B33 just randomly happened to look down and SEE Marsh and GM walking somewhere?
So tell me, Bob, when, exactly, after 4:00 p.m. would B33 have SEEN GM on the fire, given that we know exactly where B33 was (from the Air Study videos) during the relevant time frames, and given that you SURELY know how hard it is to randomly see someone from the air, particularly when you are a mile or more away at the OTHER end of the fire at the time that you are allegedly seeing that other person or their crew far far far away from you (as you are in the air)?
Elizabeth did you read what I said above ?????
the conversation was between Mouser and B33 About Them Being in the black and B33 said they were on the backside of the ridge and did not look comfortable should he go check on them again and Mouser said no they are safe in the black that was all between 1600 and 1620. we have been here many times B33 last saw the crew on the ridge near the Break site and then went back to his job as AA. We need to go back and remember the SE side of the Fire line at 1600 was Near the break site near the top by 1650 the fire line was east and south of Helms Ranch.
Between 1615 and 1640 B33 was concentrating on drops in Yarnell and keeping air craft from running into each other.
No he was not looking for any one on the ground until the call from GM then there was to much smoke to even know where they were.
You wrote:
“We need to go back and remember the SE side of the Fire line at 1600 was Near the break site near the top by 1650 the fire line was east and south of Helms Ranch.”
Thanks for reminding me of that. I was confused by that 1650 comment from B33.
What wrong frequency was Marsh communicating on?
calvin… to this day… it has never actually been CONFIRMED whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ really did ( or did NOT ) do an ‘eyes on’ check on Granite Mountain shortly after 4:00 PM.
The ‘evidence’ about that still remains conflicting.
The SAIR would have us believe that they ‘offered’ to go do that… but OPS1 Todd Abel ‘called them off’ and simply said (paraphrasing) “Nah… they’re in the black. I’m sure it it.”
Other evidence suggests they DID, in fact, stop what they were doing and purposely went to go ‘check on them’.
There is even still that unconfirmed ( but possible ) radio como at the start of the 1620 Panebaker video where we seem to hear someone communicating directly with Bravo 33 ( via call sign ) and receiving a response that indicates John Burfiend did, in fact, SEE them ‘behind those hills there, on the corner of the fire”… but Burfiend was still not sure if DIVSA ( Marsh ) was actually WITH the men he was actually ‘seeeing’ down there and that is when he asked someone on the ground to “Call them and ASK them if Alpha can be placed WITH them.” 20 seconds later… someone did just that.
So it is still possible that John Burfiend DID have some kind of ‘visual fix’ on Granite Mountain in the 4:10 to 4:16 timeframe… but that still would have only put them up on the western ridge, still hiking SOUTH, and approaching the ‘Descent Point’.
What is really unbelievable here is that we are only now hearing these additional radio communications from Burfiend… and that no one who had the opportunity to ASK him about these important radio communications was (apparently) even aware they existed at the time they could have been ASKING him about all these statements we hear him making.
I would actually call him BACK now… and interview him AGAIN… now that there are all these known statements from him and he, himself, could just shed more light on WHO he was talking to at various times and WHY.
We still didn’t get just the few seconds of video/audio we needed to figure out for sure and certain who Burfiend was even talking to at the very start of the 1639 MAYDAY video segment.
Burfiend knows… but no one ever ASKED him about it.
Again as with WTKTT I give up Use facts and show them Really????
Mr. Powers… you have an ‘investigative’ background and are no stranger to the ‘interviewing’ business.
Seriously… how pissed would YOU be ( as an investigator charged with figuring out the full circumstances surrounding 19 accidental deaths ) to discover over a YEAR later that all this kind of evidence had always existed ( including all kinds of clear statements captured in recordings from people you would be interviewing )… but that it had been being kept HIDDEN from you?
Just based on what was released Saturday… there are about 20 more questions that investigators could have asked John Burfiend alone and gotten him to ‘clarify’ about what was really happening right before and after the deployment.
I think I’m with Marti at this point.
My tendency to end messages about this ‘new evidence’ is to finish all posts with a whole bunch of four letter words.
I know what I would have said in a lot of four letter words to the staff and any one else involved that’s who I am and who I always was.
I would have been livid and calling in my IOUs .
This investigation and cover up I would have never been a part of and I would have pulled the pin. But that’s me My type would never be assigned to this type of investigation in this day and age. So I like Gary Olsen will try to wind down and start fresh tomorrow.
What is really astounding here is that Arizona Forestry and their ‘parent company’ ( The USFS ) just got away with actually releasing a ton of ‘redacted evidence’ that they have ALWAYS had but without one iota of ‘explanation’ about where the fuck this evidence was when ADOSH needed it… and they were legally REQUIRED to at least let them know they had it.
It’s still not even the actual ORIGINAL material… yet now they look like the ‘good guys’ for releasing all this ‘sanitized’ stuff long after they should have.
It’s really all quite despicable.
My mind is now reeling with regards to what ELSE they might have ( videos, photos, testimony, etc. ) that no one has any clue about.
WHERE are the depositions, photos and cell phone data they took from the Peeples Valley Firefighters just 48 hours after the incident?
We can now SEE the firefighters who almost lost their lives that day marching by Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera there in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine…
…but we still have no idea where all the EVIDENCE that was obtained from THEM ever disappeared to.
Oops. Time to end. All I can think of are more four letter words again.
Remember my information of a recording and witness statement concerning the argument it is out there some where. it has not surfaced.
I just want to say to this that there are some, IMHO, very good people who served on this Serious Accident Investigation Team.
It may be that the investigation was under such time (and agency and media) pressure that they did’t realize the controversial nature of what was going to be produced.
I am really hoping that some of them realize the debacle of this investigation. And step forward to say something.
And I’m also thinking that only their fellow firefighters have the clout/responsibility to urge them/support them to do so.
Hi Calvin!
My two cents worth. And now, as I’m writing this, I see WTKTT is weighing in, but I’m writing this before reading that.
That comment really stood out to me as I was watching. Mostly because I was watching thru the eyes/ears/video of the Prescott NF firefighter (possibly not familiar with the southwest area of the fire) standing there on Shrine Road, wondering where in the world Granite Mountain was.
When I heard that, I thought WTF “southeast”???
And, I thought, that would easily have supported the Prescott 3 to think, as I think they were thinking, even more so, that GM was nearer to them than further from them.
Now, after this seriously long day of trying to figure these videos out, and after reading what you just wrote.
I think it’s possible Bravo 33 is thinking/saying that GM was heading southeast from the last time that he saw them. But lots of people, including Prescott 3, don’t know where he last saw them. If they were heading southeast from the last time he saw them, that would mean in the direction of the Helms Ranch. And not in the direction of Shrine Road.
OK now I’ll go see what WTKTT just wrote.
OK I just read what WTKTT wrote.
I agreed and then found myself LOLLING.
shiomchyoienchsiomn#(ETJSMC^*{{{}} = long list of four letter words.
Re Q 1: From the video it’s not possible to know who B33 was directing that message to. Bob may be correct–a more general A2G message.
Re Q 2: I think it’s a personal opinion based on what he, apparently, has been seeing.
Which makes what WTKTT is saying even more relevant. There isn’t any concrete evidence as to what he was, apparently seeing/thinking about where GM and Eric were located.
PS Can we have a REAL investigation of this fire, pretty please?
And PS Calvin:
The question you are asking is, imho, a REALLY important question.
I don’t know if this is really relevant to Calvin’s question or not… but there is another piece of evidence from another ‘airman’ who was there that day who totally mis-used the term ‘southeast’ when describing what he thought Granite Mountain’s location was that day.
It’s from Ranger 58 pilot Clifford Brunsting’s signed deposition in the ‘M-Law-Enforcement-no-redactions’ PDF file.
Pilot Clifford Brunsting was talking about that FIRST recon flight in the morning and he says he saw Granite Mountain ‘deploying’ out there on that western ridgeline by the anchor point just after they had finished their hike in that morning.
But even pilot Clifford Brunsting says that was on the ‘southeast edge of the fire’.
It was no such thing. He was either totally dis-oriented, airsick, misspoke, or even some combination of all three.
The anchor point was in no way on the ‘southeast edge of the fire’.
It was the SOUTH-WEST side of the fire that morning.
From Pilot Brunsting’s signed deposition…
——————————————————-
At 1016 hours after completing my recon, I dropped the Incident Commander and Operations at the original landing zone, picked up Officer Tarr, and relocated to the new landing zone. Of note, I observed and flew over the Granite Mountain Hotshots deploying on the ridgeline on the SOUTHEAST edge of the fire on this flight.
——————————————————-
Going back to the top for Marti……
I am still sticking with my information from a solid sore about the review 2 weeks ago.
I believe the FS did the full video to family and Yarnell and Prescott Fire officials the redacted or blacked out the last two videos before they sent to the State. That means we may be talking about two separate but the same Videos. The redacted version may not have been shown to Lawyers and all the Family members before the State release There was no time for the state to possibly show the Videos they had in 24 hours to get any acceptance from all involved. Dose that make any since??
Copy.
And, to be honest, I’m getting too brain-dead for much of anything to make sense.
I think it’s time for me to get ready for the pillows and check back in tomorrow.
NBC Nightly News just ran their own report on the newly released videos.
They did NOT mention Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
All they said about the SOURCE of the new videos is that they were ‘taken by other firefighters who happened to be in Yarnell that day’.
Too bad. This would have been an opportunity to put Aaron Hulburd himself on camera and get HIM to talk about these videos which HE took… and what else he might have heard or seen.
Someone still needs to do that.
NBC Nightly News also still just reported to the world at large that it was ‘communications problems’ that led to the deaths of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The only ‘communications problems’ that contributed to this accident was the fact that people with functioning radios didn’t know HOW to fully ‘communicate’.
You can lead a horse to water but you can’t make it drink.
Apparently we are the only ones on the planet who know who took those headcam videos.
I doubt that that’s an ACCIDENT.
On Oct. 18 I told every one the video was being Viewed and would soon be released this came from a source close to the one of the three people attached to the video
that was taken.
My sources were accurate as to the existence of the Video and how much there was
An additional 43 min. which means the other 7 plus min. released during the investigation puts the time at 50 plus min. so we are missing about 8 plus min. redacted.
I will stand by my source that the Families were reviewing the video at around Oct. 18 as I was told.
Again don’t always count on accurate reporting from the news media as to who saw what and when. were the Families more concerned with the release without there approval and not the time they saw the original. Ill leave it at that for now.
What would be really interesting to know/find out is if it was actually just SOME of the GM family members who were either just ‘notified’ about the videos coming out and/or give the opportunity to see them in advance of release.
In other words… USATODAY says that ( for sure and certain ) some Prescott Fire Captain named J.P. Vicente at least WARNED the ‘families’ that the material was going to be released ‘in a few weeks’.
Well… what’s the full scoop on THAT part of this story?
Did J.P. Vicente actually notify ALL of the family members?… or just some?
Is it possible that even the firefighting community has ‘drawn a line in the sand’ and only the families who have NOT filed lawsuits were getting this advance notice and/or opportunity to see the material beforehand?
I’d love to see J.P. Vicente himself ‘interviewed’ by someone, at this point, and have him explain exactly what he did ( or did NOT ) do… and WHO he actually (supposedly) talked to about all this some weeks ago.
Also… would love to know how a simple fire captain on a municipal fire department seemed to have known MORE about how a Federal Agency was going to respond to an FOIA request than ( apparently ) even the Arizona State Forestry division did.
Exactly.
Re Joy’s Photos she emailed me from June 30, July 2, and July 4.
Someone commented to me way downstream that my Dropbox link to them didn’t work.
I moved them sI should be able to successfully share the link.
Here it is. Hope it works this time!
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/eelrgcqxn2h8wgc/AABPwzkLwKAZCTHwu3PcOo_na?dl=0
Please let me know if it doesn’t work.
Thank you!
Works fine from here. No ‘login’ page appears as was the case with the other link.
Thanks.
I’m not used to posting stuff on the internet from Dropbox.
So I learned something today!
With a lot of these ‘online’ thingamabobs and accounts and whatnot… you have to remember that they ALL work they same way.
They use COOKIES to know whether you are ‘logged in’ or not.
The only way to be SURE you have something set correctly to be viewed by ‘outsiders’ ( without having to login ) is to make sure you DELETE all your cookies in your Browser and THEN ‘test the links’.
Other sites are the same way.
A lot of people stay ‘logged in’ to places like YouTube and Facebook and they think they have set things so that anyone can ‘view’ things… but only when they clear their cookies from their own Browser do they discover that things were still tied to a cookie based login.
Thanks.
Actually, after I read the directions, I wasn’t locating the folder or “sharing” it correctly.
One more thing that is confirmed from the newer videos is that people’s sense of TIME on fires is not always accurate. I mention this because Marti, I believe, was trying to tie something to a time stated in Willis’s unit logs, but I wouldn’t necessarily do that – I would not put a whole lot of faith in the precise times quoted in unit logs. Perhaps the order of events is accurate, but I am less confident that actual times will be. (This is the behavioral expert in me speaking, for what it is worth.) In one of the newerish videos, for example, at 4:50, Aaron indicates that he thinks the call for help from Division Alpha (Marsh) was roughly a half hour ago. But it wasn’t, obviously. It was maybe 10 minutes prior. But Aaron estimated three TIMES longer than that. Unless you have a REASON or specific NEED to pull up your sleeves and look at your watch on a fire, you often won’t.
I understand that. I think we all do, by now. As in REALLY.
I still think the times I was posting about are accurate enough to connect what’s going on to what’s going on. And, thus, my sequencing of the videos.
The video from the Incident Command Post with Darrell Willis’ crew getting ready to leave Double A Bar Ranch was taken WAY earlier than the videos stamped 3:30-ish, unless those videos are REALLY inaccurately LABELED by SOMEBODY.
If those videos are ACCURATELY LABELED by SOMEBODY, there was, in fact, a MAJOR burnout operation going on at Model Creek Road. Very close to where the Prescott 3 were at at 3:15 (via the Blues Brothers video).
The timing of that MAJOR BURNOUT being around from 3 to 3:30 is attested to numerous times and is video’ed AT THAT TIME within the AIR STUDY videos.
Sheesh. I”ve only been doing this for two weeks short of A YEAR.
Not only that, but….
When Darrell Willis is posting in his log, if he is UNCERTAIN about the time he is posting, he writes: “est” or “unknown time.”
So I don’t believe I have serious reason to doubt that he wasn’t, in fact, looking at his watch or cellphone, when he noted the times in his log.
Oh, my, Marti. You actually think he was filling in his unit log at roughly 2 p.m. or 2:30 p.m.? Not likely. Not that day. Not on that end of the fire.
Your comment about 2 p.m. or 2:30 p.m. just doesn’t fit, and my understanding was that you were getting it from Willis’s unit log. Apologies if I was misunderstanding!
I don’t understand what you are saying about 2-2:30 not “fitting.” Not “fitting” what?
I know FOR A FACT that Darrell Willis and his crew were not preparing to abandon Double A Bar Ranch after 3:30 PM when they were burning out Model Creek Road.
Therefore, IN FACT, the sequencing of these videos is not correct. as is claimed by AZF.
And yes, I think he was taking notes. Some firefighters actually do that. He was also using his CELLPHONE a lot, because of too much radio traffic. He was also taking photos with his cellphone and sending them to people.
I do believe he intentionally was paying attention to time during his whole shift. His interviews are the most clear of all of them as to TIME.
And I’m totally willing to be PROVEN wrong.
So far, the most important thing I have learned from the release of these videos is that neither the US Forest Service, nor AZ Forestry give a rats ass about the safety and well-being of their employees and THEIR families, friends, and loved ones.
THANK YOU Blue Ridge Hotshots and Prescott National Forest Hotshots for RISKING YOUR LIVES to search for the Granite Mountain Hotshots!!!!
And THANK YOU Aaron Hulburd for taking these precious videos while you were also RISKING YOUR LIFE, while at danger for being UNINSURED because some ones in high places didn’t want anyone to know you were even on the fire so you were NEVER ASSIGNED TO IT!
Namaste to all of you and
GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR
Boo Boo alert.
The Prescott National Forest Firefighters weren’t Hotshots.
Doesn’t change a molecule of what I wrote above.
Marti, my understanding is that the three Prescott guys were not on the roster due to mistake, not malice. Hanlon’s razor, sort of.
One more thing: I think it is inaccurate, Marti, to say, with respect to Hulburd, that he was “at danger for being UNINSURED because some ones in high places didn’t want anyone to know you were even on the fire,” because, as I understand it, Bea Day actually had to be asked if her guys could be ordered up (which would then leave her Type 2 team understaffed). So, as best I can tell, nobody was hiding what was going on.
Personally, I don’t believe that.
Too many lengths were gone to to keep anybody from knowing they were even present.
And they’re not the only USFS crew to whom that was done.
I’m willing to be proven wrong.
Marti, as I understand it, they would not have GONE without Bea’s sign-off. Meaning, if they went to the YHF, that would leave Bea’s team SHORT, so that, if ANOTHER fire cropped up, and someone wanted to order Bea’s team in FULL, it would be SHORT. (I do not know if they would decline or what, but you see the issue.)
Bea Day, herself, was, in fact, even there. Her very self. Via the interviews.
Roy Hall called her (apparently she was in Prescott–she lives near Albuquerque) and asked her to send her very best people because he was spending the day filling in holes.
Since he, in fact, wanted her LONG Type 2 team to take over the fire and she knew that and was preparing to do that.
There is no record of ANY of them being on the fire according to the Dispatch Logs, except for, I think, Tony Sciacca and Marty Cole.
We have no idea who, else, from her team was on the fire. None of them were ever interviewed or acknowledged.
That’s an ACCIDENT?
Reply to Elizabeth post November 10, 2014 at 3:11 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Marti, my understanding is that the three Prescott guys were not on
>> the roster due to mistake, not malice.
Nobody ever said they weren’t ‘on the Roster’.
There actually has always been 2 mysterious ‘backfill’ orders placed into the ‘Resource Orders’ request document for both Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
They are only ‘partial’ entries into the ordering system and they are both dated July 3, 2013 ( 3 days after the incident ).
Hulburd’s mysterious backfill order is order number 0-160.
Yowell’s mysterious backfill order is order number 0-161.
There is, however, not even any such partial ‘backfill’ order for Jason Clawson.
According to the official documents released by the SAIT… Jason Clawson was ‘never there at all’.
But even on these mysterious BACKFILL orders that appear for just Hulburd and Yowell… they are still ‘hiding’ the fact that these men were there in Yarnell on June 30, 2013. Even though these ‘backfill’ orders were entered into the system 3 days after the incident… they both say these men were not ‘needed’ until July 1… the day AFTER the tragedy.
Other ODD things about these mysterious ‘backfill’ orders.
Even though both orders say the men were not even ‘needed’ in Yarnell until July 1, 2013… they both have ‘special needs’ notes that say they ‘helped secure the accident scene’.
The ‘Ordered From’ field has no standard Unit ID designator.
Just a phone number. 623-445-0288
That phone number is a FAX machine at Arizona Forestry ( Not Prescott National Forest and not anything associated with Bea Day in Prescott ).
These two mysterious backfill orders are the only ones in the entire ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that show firefighters being orderd FROM a FAX machine.
On page 171 of the ‘J- Resource Orders’ document released by Arizona Forestry…
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell’s BACKFILL order…
Request Number: O-160
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1031 PNT
From: 623-445-0288
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
(Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC))
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1300 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: ( No entry )
To Unit: ( No entry )
Assigned Date/Time: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned Unit ID: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned: Pending
M/D Ind: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Departure: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Arrival: ( No Entry )
Released To: ( No Entry )
Travel Mode: ( No Entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: This is a backfill. KC helped secure the accident scene
Aaron Hulburd’s BACKFILL order…
Request number: O-161
Ordered Date/Time: 07/03/13 1033 PNT
From: 623-445-0288
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: DIVISION/GROUP SUPERVISOR (DIVS)
(Hulburd, Aaron (AZPDC))
Needed Date/Time: 07/01/13 1300 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: ( No entry )
To Unit: ( No entry )
Assigned Date/Time: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned Unit ID: ( No Entry )
Resource Assigned: Pending
M/D Ind: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Departure: ( No Entry )
Estimated Time of Arrival: ( No Entry )
Released To: ( No Entry )
Travel Mode: ( No Entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: This is a backfill. Aaron helped secure the accident scene
There are also two strange ‘fulfillment’ notes associated with these ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and Jason Clawson. They say that even these mysterious backfill orders were UTF ( Unable To Fill ).
On page 205 of the publicly released ‘J-Resource Orders’ document…
Req No.: O-160
Docs: PDC is UTFing this order for Kc because he is dispatched out of PDC.
Entered By: Georgia Burns (AZ-PHC) 07/03/2013 1105 PNT
Req No: O-161
Docs: PHC is utfing this order as Aron is dispatched out of PDC
Entered By: Georgia Burns (AZ-PHC) 07/03/2013 1104 PN
** MORE ABOUT JASON CLAWSON
With regards to Jason Clawson and the fact there isn’t even a mysterious ‘backfill’ order for him in the official ‘J-Resource Orders’ document… there actually is ANOTHER entry for him in ANOTHER ROSS system.
That Public URL showing Jason Clawson in the ROSS system USED to be this…
http://fam.nwcg.gov/gacc/swcc/predictive/intelligence/daily/ddsswcc/cognos/incidents/incident_resources_Yarnell_Hill.pdf
…but that document has been REMOVED. Not sure when, but that link above was working as late as June of this year.
Here is the ROSS resource order for Jason Clawson that the link above USED to show when it was still working…
——————————————–
START OF ROSS REPORT DATA
Incident GACC: Southwest Area Coordination Center
Incident Dispatch: Arizona Interagency Dispatch Center
These are the HEADERS for the individual report column data shown
below, separated by COMMAS.
Clawson, Hulburd, WILLIS, and Yowell were all hired June 30 as DIVS.
Incident Name,
Incident Number,
Req Number Prefix,
Req Number,
Assignment Name.
Fill Code,
Qual Status,
Res Prov Unit,
Res GACC,
Mob Date,
Res Status,
Days Assigned
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-163, Clawson, Jason W (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-161, Hulburd, Aaron (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q, AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-18, WILLIS, DARRELL (AZ-ADC), DIVS, Q, AZPRC, NMSWC, 6/29/13, At Incident 12 days
YARNELL HILL AZA1S-130688, O, O-160, Yowell, Kc (AZ-PDC), DIVS, Q, AZPNF, NMSWC, 6/30/13, At Incident 12 days
END OF ROSS REPORT DATA
——————————————–
SIDENOTE: This online ROSS report for the Yarnell HIll Fire shows Willis, Hulburd, Clawson and Yowell as all having been working the Yarnell Hill Fire for the full 12 days. I don’t believe this is actually the case for ANY of them.
So in the documentation officially released by Arizona Forestry AND in this ‘other’ ROSS report… Yowell had a ‘backfill order number of 0-160 and Hulburd’s number was 0-161
In the OTHER ROSS system… Jason Clawson’s ‘Request Number’ for Yarnell was supposedly number 0-163.
The officially released document from Arizona Forestry ENDS with order number 0-162 ( A resource order for an ‘Agency Representative’ filled by Glenn Joki ).
There IS no order number 0-163 included at all in what Arizona Forestry released publicly.
In other words… they ‘cut off’ the information they were releasing at order number 0-162… just 1 shy of the actual ROSS resource order number that would supposedly have shown Jason Clawson’s name in the public release.
SUMMARY
No one ever said that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell weren’t ‘on the roster’ or that it was IMPOSSIBLE to determine that these men were THERE on Shrine road that day. If you knew how to DIG through the information… the hints were there.
But the SAIT and Arizona Forestry were making it as difficult as possible to know about them being there… and what roles they actually played that day.
ADOSH never even requested interviews with these men because it was not made CLEAR to them how critical a role they played in both the recording of the MAYDAY radio traffic and the actual discovery of the bodies.
WTKTT
Try going back and checking Bea Day Type 2 Team order and see if they are listed on that as part of the team Order.
Mr. Powers… I can find no ‘Bea Day Type 2 Team’ order whatsoever in the ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that was supplied by Arizona Forestry as the (supposed) de-facto complete list of all resources ordered for Yarnell.
I didn’t expect to.
Roy Hall was doing all of that OFF THE RADAR.
He was short people… and he KNEW it… and he was just trying to get Bea Day to cover his ass and send him some people… totally ‘off the radar’ and outside of the normal ordering process.
Roy Hall ‘waved this off’ during his interviews by just saying he ‘didn’t have time for all that computer stuff’.
There isn’t even a ‘backfill’ order for Bea Day herself… but we KNOW that she was actually THERE in Yarnell that day.
Something caused someone to go ahead and create those mysterious ‘backfill orders’ O-160 and O-161 for Yowell and Hulburd ( because they were still insisting on getting PAID even though they were never actually assigned to the fire? ).
But no one saw the need to do the same kind of ‘backfill’ orders for Bea Day herself, or Jason Clawson, or anyone else who we still don’t even know about that Bea Day might have had heading to Yarnell that day.
It was all supposed to go smoothly… and Hall thought he could ‘get away’ with filling out his team and bypassing the normal ordering process, or something.
Hall didn’t know that Arizona Forestry was going to force it all up to a Type 1 incident order before all these ‘secret’ Bea Day hires would even start showing up in Yarnell that day. It all turned into a mess, from a documentation standpoint.
Maybe I’m missing something somewhere.
I will do some more checking.
NO ONE was doing Roy Hall these favors out of the kindness of their heart. Anyone headed to Yarnell that day was expecting to get PAID.
Agree. And thank you for all of this.
Actually, I do think Bea Day was pitching in, to some extent, not only for the possible pay, but for the fact that she cared about what was happening.
She was taking some risk for her team, in my opinion, all things considered.
And, via the interviews and stuff, it’s pretty clear to me that Roy Hall trusted Bea Day and her team way more than he trusted ROSS.
Could be in the Dispatch at the fire written record and not in the orders. But it my just be a phone conversation from IC to Bea and no record. Not good but we know they were coming to the fire or were there when things went to hell.
From what I’ve encountered, in the fire-fighting community, at least at the levels where people are actually fighting the actual fires,
not everything is about the money.
Typo in the original post above.
I accidentally typed ‘Jason Clawson’ in a paragraph when I mean to type KC ‘Bucky Yowell.
There are ONLY these two strange ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in the official ‘J-Resource Orders’ document that was released by Arizona Forestry as the (supposedly) definitive document defining WHO was ever hired to work the Yarnell fire.
There is NO ORDER WHATSOEVER ( backfill or otherwise ) for Jason Clawson in this AZF document.
The pargraph above SHOULD have read like this…
“There are also two strange ‘fulfillment’ notes associated with these ‘backfill’ orders for Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky Yowell’. They say that even these mysterious backfill orders were UTF ( Unable To Fill ).
Also… one more thing.
Notice up above that the original ROSS document that was sitting online had the correct ‘Mob Date’ entries of June 30, 2013 for Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell, as they were originally ordered up for Yarnell.
However… when someone got around to then creating these alternate ‘backfill’ orders that would be ‘inserted’ into the ‘J-Resource Orders’ document for public consumption… those ‘Mobilization Dates’ for both Hulburd and Yowell were CHANGED to ‘July 1, 2013’, the day AFTER the incident.
On July 3, 2013… someone was creating ‘alternate backfill orders’ in the ROSS system so that Hulburd and Yowell could actually get PAID ( or something )… but they STILL seemed to also be trying to make it look like these two men were NOT actually there in Yarnell on June 30 itself.
Regarding redactions: Some of you were wondering about redactions or the videos being clipped. There are two things at play, but the easiest one to address is as follows:
John Dougherty should have gotten a letter when the USDA/Forest Service responded to his request for the videos that laid out what they were redacting and why. If the USDA clipped the videos, they did not need to explain why to the AZSF, but they WOULD have had to explain it to Dougherty, depending on HOW he requested the videos and whether or not clipped videos would have complied without explanation.
So those of you (Bob, Marti, WTKTT) who were questioning whether the videos were clipped and why might actually find your answer in a letter sent to JD.
(The second thing at play, however, is a more sophisticated legal stratagem not worth getting into….)
Elizabeth… I don’t think you’ve been paying attention.
Even the REDACTED Blue Ridge Logs that the FEDS finally ‘coughed up’ to ADOSH had no ‘letter of explanation’ for ALL of the redactions… even though it was (supposedly) required.
To this day… there is no valid explanation for the MASSIVE redactions in those documents.
The US Forestry Service is not ‘playing by the rules’.
You also obviously haven’t even read Johh Dougherty’s own article from yesterday which explains the entire sequence of events here… and how these videos came to be released.
The US Forestry service has NOT fulfilled InvestigativeMEDIA’s original FOIA request.
When IM sent that FOIA to Prescott National Forest… they ‘punted’ it up to their corporate headquarters ( The US Forestry Service )… probably accompanied with an email that said “Oh shit!… What do we do NOW?”.
The US Forestry service decided to just ‘get out in front of the story’ and instead of actually fulfilliing the IM request… they just started arranging for Arizona Forestry to ‘receive’ the material and then ‘publish’ it on their own website.
Arizona Forestry received no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS… and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA request… no such letter will be forthcoming at THAT time, either.
WTKTT, allow me to try to explain again:
When the USFS *GIVES* something to AZSF that the AZSF has not requested via FOIA, the USFS does not have to COMPLY with FOIA … which means that the USFS does not have to EXPLAIN what they redacted to the AZSF.
Elizabeth. Allow me to explain.
We already understand that.
Marti, clearly not, because WTKTT said on NOVEMBER 10, 2014 AT 5:23 PM:
Even the REDACTED Blue Ridge Logs that the FEDS finally ‘coughed up’ to ADOSH had no ‘letter of explanation’ for ALL of the redactions… even though it was (supposedly) required.
To this day… there is no valid explanation for the MASSIVE redactions in those documents.
My response to WTKTT’s above statement, Marti, is “wrong.” The USFS – an in-house named Steve Hattenbach, to be exact – DID give ADOSH an explanation, although it sucked, and, had ADOSH pushed back on it, they likely could have gotten some traction.
Also, Marti, WTKTT said “Arizona Forestry received no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS… and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA request… no such letter will be forthcoming at THAT time, either.”
If WTKTT actually already understood, as you seemed to suggest to me, Marti, that the USFS did not HAVE to give AZFS any sort of explanation, presumably WTKTT would not have made the comment above that I quote.
Or am I missing something, Marti?
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 10, 2014 at 6:53 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> Also, Marti, WTKTT said “Arizona Forestry received
>> no ‘letter of explanation’ for all the REDACTIONS…
>> and I will bet a sawbuck that if they ever actually
>> ( finally ) fulfill the original InvestigativeMEDIA
>> request… no such letter will be forthcoming at
>> THAT time, either.”
At the bottom of the very page that Arizona Forestry created on their own website for these ‘new’ videos… they added the following statement…
“Arizona State Forestry has not received any identifying or clarifying information from the Forest Service.”
I take that to mean they ALSO provided no clear information on the redactions… or exactly WHICH ‘exemption’ statutes of FOIA they are ‘claiming’ in order to perform all the redactions.
>> Elizabeth also said…
>>
>> If WTKTT actually already understood, as you
>> seemed to suggest to me, Marti, that the USFS did
>> not HAVE to give AZFS any sort of explanation,
>> presumably WTKTT would not have made the
>> comment above that I quote.
Elizabeth… YOU are the one who seemed to be suggesting in YOUR comment above that whenever someone fulfills an FOIA request and there are redactions… that they are SUPPOSED to also supply some kind of explanation as to which ‘exemption allowances’ of FOIA are being ‘invoked’ for said redactions.
If Arizona Forestry really did do an ACTUAL FOIA of their own for the videos that were just delivered to them… then YES… USFS was SUPPOSED to give them such an explanation for all redactions.
I actually do NOT think that Arizona Forestry ever filed their own FOIA request for this material at all.
I think the fact that it entered into their possession is just part of the US Forestry’s plan to ‘get out ahead of this story’ and release the material somewhere where they still had control over it and where the recipient would ‘ask no hard questions’.
I believe it was InvestgativeMEDIA’s own original FOIA request to Prescott National Forest that started this whole ‘alternate plan’ to be put into action on the part of US Forestry.
If they ( USFS ) ever really DO comply with the original InvestigativeMEDIA FOIA request… then yes… they are still SUPPOSED to supply an explanation about which exemption statues of FOIA they are ‘claiming’ in order to perform all the redactions… but I will still bet you that sawbuck there will be no such letter ‘attached’ to the FOIA fulfillment package.
As with the Blue Ridge Unit Logs officially requested by ADOSH with an actual FOIA ( and a Touhy request, I believe )… USFS seems to think they are ‘above all that’ and can redact whatever the hell they want and NOT have to fully explain anything to anyone.
The Forest Service made no mention of a possible redactions to the videos requested by InvestigativeMEDIA in its reply to the FOIA. A link to the letter is now included in the story.
John, I’m not seeing the letter that Vargas (or, more likely, Hubbard or Joyner) would have sent you along with the CD that they sent you with the newish videos on them. That letter should have a lengthy list of what they did not give you and why.
For me, one of the more useful points from the newish videos is Paul Musser confirming that there were NOT winds of 40 mph on the YHF.
I don’t have my copy of the videos clips in front of me, or else I would give you the reference number of which video I am referencing, but it is the one where Paul is talking to Yowell (I think), and Paul makes clear that 40 mph is not what they are experiencing on the YHF. (This confirms in my mind that the later winds are not outflow boundary winds but are indrafting/convection/etc.) This, by the way, is bit of follow-up to a point I was making for Marti many months ago. Sorry for my delay! 🙁
Reply to Elizabeth post on November 10, 2014 at 1:56 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> I don’t have my copy of the videos clips in front of me, or else I would
>> give you the reference number of which video I am referencing.
Then please go check and please be more specific.
Honestly, Elizabeth, that’s one of the things that was ‘setting people off’ here every time you would come on here with comments. You would constantly try to make ‘points’ and then not provide enough information for anyone to know exactly what the hell you were referring to.
Sometimes it was ‘unknown sources’ or ‘I can’t remember where I read that’ or whatever… but you make it really difficult for anyone to even respond to your comments when you are asking US to go ‘do your homework for you’.
In this case… PLEASE just tell us exactly which of the 21 videos you are talking about now.
That would be helpful.
WTKTT, my point was just to share what *I*, personally, thought was really valuable, because some folks who follow this blog but do not post are sometimes curious about what I am catching.
The fact that Paul Musser confirms that he was not experiencing 40 mph winds on the YHF is, in my view, a relevant point.
I see your reading skills have not improved.
WHAT specific comment are you TALKING about?
WHAT video file do you think you are hearing this in?
And what video file are you pointing your many followers at?
Or don’t they care either?
I would like to make an apology to JD and those on here who are here to discuss the information we find and receive. Elizabeth attacked me and what information I have given freely here. Shall I say she twisted my tail to many times and I bit back. I am not here to degrade any ones input or who they are
or their credibility. So again I apologize to all of you who have spent the time to be actively involved in this process. Enough said…………
FWIW… no apology necessary ( from my own perspective, anyway ).
Some people are just really good at pushing other people’s buttons…
and they seem to really enjoy it.
Whadda ya gonna do. Sometimes you have to ‘push back’.
If no one else has said so lately… THANK YOU, Mr. Powers, for being RIGHT about what
was going to happen… and for bringing your information to this public discussion in a way that YOU see fit and are comfortable with.
I actually still shudder to think of the workload that has probably been on the shoulders of Mr. John Dougherty with regards to keeping all the ‘hate mail’ and nasty-grams from appearing on this discussion from people who just can’t tolerate an open forum.
Thanks once again to Mr. John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA for PROVIDING the resources necessary for this kind of ongoing public discussion.
Back to work.
And thank you for providing all the specialties that make it easer to follow all the information and photos you do a lot of work here to bring clarity to what we have.
Again I will also refer back to the things I put on here earlier they are still out there concerning the argument an audio copies of it I am still hoping they will surface.
Maybe what we just got will shake them lose.
As to the Video’s
WTKTT and JD If the State did not have the Videos till Nov. 7th dose that mean the Forest Service was going around showing them to the Families and local Fire fighters? About 2 to 3 weeks ago that took place.
Under the freedom of Information Act can the Forest Service continue to hold the tape in its entirety and not release it?
Its not like they are protecting National Security.
Bob, that is a RUMOR. The families did NOT see the videos ahead of time – that was a rumor from you and Fred….
Marti
If I am not mistaken Bea Days team was ordered and later replaced with a type 1 Team. The 3 from Prescott arrived early and were out scoping out the fire for their team that would be taking over at shift break 1800.
That dose occur quite often.
I am interested to know who the female was that was asking about GM and how long since they were last herd from them just before the SUV’s went to search for them. It sounded like someone of authority.
WAS THAT BEA DAY?
Also they would not have been shown on shift till the team took over but they would have been shown on time slip as assigned to the fire and covered under Insurance for all practical purposes.
I think they just at that time had no assignment until the full team took over and they may as well been frustrated with what was going on, on the Fire at 1500 in the afternoon.
Exactly. They were there.
And I was wondering the VERY same thing about that female voice.
And you hear it after a red truck that I haven’t seen anywhere else passes with a fire-fighter driving it.
So, regarding what WTKTT said downstream about people being on the fire that aren’t shown in the dispatch logs not being covered by workman’s comp if anything went wrong (which it easily could have), do you agree with that?
not really they were part of Bea Days team so they could be out surveying the fire to report back at team beefing for Bea. They still would have been on time slip and assigned to fire fro order once the leave there time is recorded to the fire until they are off duty.
Thanks Bob.
I don’t really understand this (WHO DOES???)
But what I’m “hearing” you “saying” is that the various Dispatch Logs (like what WTKTT is documenting above-stream) aren’t the only record of “employed” “engagement” on a fire such that doing something like risking life and limb to go find and, hopefully, rescue a crew wouldn’t equate to doing that without Workmans Comp coverage.
Is that what you are saying?
Elizabeth please take note Joy also stated that the Families were reviewing that Video as a conformation of what I said.
I created no rumor it was a valid statement with confirmation from more than me.
Bob, you yourself STATED the rumor as fact, claiming to have “info”!! You said:
Bob Powers says OCTOBER 18, 2014 AT 2:40 PM
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.
And your point is????
Joy also confirmed the locals were talking about it as well
and that I was not the only one saying it would be released soon??????
My point is: YOU SPREAD RUMORS as if they were fact, Bob. And then you claim that you don’t do it.
That, Bob, is my point. You. Spread. RUMORS. and it HURTS people because it creates drama and frenzy and you don’t admit that all you are spreading are RUMORS. You state things as FACT, as if Fred were somehow gospel, which, I assure you, he is NOT. Obviously. Brendan was not deposed, and these new videos did NOT come from ADOSH days ago.
Elizabeth what I have said is fact and Fred had nothing to do with it. Where do you suppose the fact that the Video’s would be released came from and who but me said they were there on OCTOBER 18 3 weeks ago I guess I had some good info no body else was saying any thing.
So spreading Rumors NO just facts that are right in front of your eyes.
And yes McDonough did give testimony to Lawyers.
I have offered facts based on what I was told so far they are coming true unless you are denying that the State just released what I said they would???
I stand on my honesty and integrity I really question yours.
Of course no one should ever trust a Lawyer
Which you attained before you became a professor. You have spent a lot of time trying to discredit me But my background and record still stand and you keep looking stupid….
Bob, you yourself said as gospel FACT the following, which was absolutely, 100% NOT TRUE:
“Bob Powers says OCTOBER 18, 2014 AT 2:40 PM
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.”
And again what are you saying??
I do not deny that and I stand by it
If you don’t like it go find another sand box where you can be king of the mountain….
If that doesn’t satisfy you . Go ask J.P. Vincent Captain Prescott where he got the info several weeks ago and warned the families????? it might be released.
Bob, my understanding is that Fred convinced JD to go looking for this video, so John Dougherty did so…. and then word got out (from Fred and you and others through the grapevine who realized what JD was doing or was likely to do) that more folks were now also going to get this video, and JP or the rumor mill picked it up from there and reached out to the families.
In the news paper release I do not see a statement from family members as to when they viewed the video.
only that a Lawyer had not seen it.
also the state or FS blacked out the last part were the bodies were shown But a Wife says she saw that part,
this all happened between the Nov 7 released to the State and the November 8th release to the public which John released to us around 7:30 PM That is not much time to review with all the families
Something still dose not smell right here. Who’s pulling whose strings????
Reply to Bob Powers post on
November 10, 2014 at 4:39 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Something still dose not smell right here.
>> Who’s pulling whose strings????
You can say that again.
The USATODAY article that ran on this says, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been WARNED that this ‘new material’ was going to be released ‘a few weeks’ ago by none other than J. P. Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
There is another STORY here that needs to be told about how this all actually went down.
They were told and reviewed the video in that meeting I keep telling every one happened around the 18th of October. Again something is fishy here.
Just went thru the news release you posted the last paragraph by the Lawyer is a little telling as it says the Families did not view or were contacted by the state of the release.
But what are all these statements from family members stating they saw the Videos in there homes. It had to be a early showing that they saw and were not told it would be released.
How did they get the Videos to there homes and when????? The State had no time to contact and review the Videos with Families spread all over the place much less Lawyers.
Yet we are hearing the family members reviewed the Videos.
Something don’t fit here at all…………….
From the AZ Central article:
Attorney Patrick McGroder, “who represents families of the fallen hotshots” says:
“I’ve not seen them and how substantive they are, but you’re still dealing with very tender, sensitive victims of this tragedy, and you would think that the state forestry department would at least have the decency to at least contact the victims’ survivors to let them know it was going to be released and to give them the opportunity to either see the videos or have the opportunity to determine whether there’s anything that might cause them any further injury and damage.”
To me, “to give them the opportunity to either see the videos” sounds like, in his mind, they hadn’t seen the videos.
He could be mistaken.
This is truly weird.
Even if they HAD seen them, the anger about them not being notified they were about to be released to the public without any consultation about that is pretty truly awful.
Link:
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
Except the AP narrative, which is used in the Prescott Daily Courier article, says the neither the families, nor Brendan, nor their lawyers saw the videos before Saturday. And their lawyers are po’d about that.
Arizona Forestry posts Yarnell firefighter videos
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=138209
Apparently the AP version, published today, is merely a “mixtape” of the AZCentral version.
The USATODAY article that ran on this says, in no uncertain terms, that the families of the Granite Mountain Hotshots had been WARNED that this ‘new material’ was going to be released ‘a few weeks’ ago by none other than J. P. Vicente, a Prescott Fire Captain…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
This doesn’t establish whether the familes then had ( during the last few weeks after Vicente’s warning to them ) any opporunity to VIEW the material… but unless USATODAY is totally full of shit there is no doubt they ‘knew it was coming’.
Except for Brendan, that is.
Brendan still maintains he had no idea this material was going to be released.
So Vicente saw fit to notify the families when he knew this material was going to be released… but it didn’t even occur to him to tell Brendan as well?
There is whole ‘nother STORY that needs to be told here about exactly how all this really went down.
Truly.
Yvonne Wingett Sanchez, the main investigator/writer for the AZ Central story, which is the basis for the AP story, has done some really good research/analysis/writing on this fire and the conflicted agency pretzel power-struggle relationships related to it.
I think she’s really serious about this thing, and she’s also brilliant, and does lots of HOMEWORK.
I don’t know if she reads us. I hope she does.
SOMEBODY besides us needs to know who took those helmetcam videos and the SIGNIFICANCE of that and of what is in them.
It’s impossible to tell, in that article, WHEN the interviews were done with the family members that led to the quotes included in it.
But, apparently she had sources who clued her in on that hedzup by that Prescott Fire Dept guy.
She knew the videos existed. She’s probably the person who triggered their FOIA request.
Most of her stuff lately has been about the AZ elections. But I can imagine her hunkering down regularly to scan Yarnell stuff.
way more than she lets on to.
I HOPE she is asking questions inside her mind, and among her also-concerned pals, about what this current jockeying between USFS, SAIT, AZF, the families, the public, and JD (and via him US) is all about.
And, I think it’s important to keep in mind, in the middle of all this STUFF, the POINT of this.
People are still being HURT by these games. This fire has not even been contained, seventeen long months after it ignited.
And DOLLARS are still being spent to fight this fire, including all the DOLLARS being spent to prevent anybody knowing what actually happened.
WTF is the USFS continuing to try to HIDE?
I can understand AZF trying to hide stuff. I think they screwed up massively.
But USFS????
None of their people are on “the chopping block.” A bunch of their people are, in fact, heroes who risked their lives trying to find/rescue Granite Mountain.
All the USFS people on this fire performed admirably.
WHY are they throwing their own people under the bus, jeopardizing their (and their families, loved ones, and friends) mental and emotional well-being, impeding efforts to get to the truth so that future fire-fighters can learn from this. to, what, protect AZF???????
I really truly, right now, sitting here, don’t get it.
And I really hope Yvonne doesn’t either.
It’s beyond time for USFS to throw AZF under the bus, instead of their own employees.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 10, 2014 at 1:09 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> AZF says
>>
>> “On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona
>> State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest
>> Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as
>> they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came
>> into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.”
>>
>> What does this supposedly mean?
What it ‘supposedly’ means is that Arizona Forestry NEVER saw, or was even AWARE, that this ‘other video footage’ even existed until sometime last Friday.
>> Marti also asked…
>>
>> …and is it even remotely believable?
Nope.
Look again at the actual STATEMENT.
There is that magic ‘possession’ word and the hint of the ‘gamesmanship’
I was talking about last week.
(quote) “…came into the POSSESSION of Arizona State Forestry.”
It is NOT believable that if the US Forestry Service actually GAVE that 7 minute and 49 second ‘cut’ from Hulburd’s video footage to the SAIT long before the SAIR ever came out that Arizona Forestry and the SAIT would have also NOT been aware of ( or had their own copies of ) ALL this ‘other’ footage.
However… as far as any responsibility of responding to ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests goes… they appear to be ‘playing that game’ I was talking about.
Even though they may have had their own COPIES of this footage ( just like I’m sure they always had their own unredacted copies of ALL of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs )… they thought they had a ‘get out of FOIA free card’ in their pocket by being able to claim they were not the OWNERS of this information and, therefore, not required to supply that information in response to any (lawful) State Level Arizona Open Records request.
It’s all must ‘mental gymnastics’ and a way to NOT have to supply information you might actually have always had copies of in response to a records request that hits your doorstep.
What is getting ‘lost in the noise’ here, now that this ‘story’ has hit the mainstream media, is that it appears to have been John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA that FORCED this event to happen.
Everyone needs to be sure and read the IM Top Level article that reports the ‘sequence of events’ here and it becomes obvious that Arizona Forestry ONLY decided to release this information after John Dougherty went straight to the Prescott National Forest with a specific FOIA request.
Prescott National Forest ‘punted’ that valid FOIA request up to ‘headquarters’ ( The US Forestry Service ), and they, in turn, then coordinated the release of this material with their cohorts at Arizona Forestry INSTEAD of responding directly to the original FOIA request from InvestigativeMEDIA.
It’s all about CONTROL for them ( Arizona Forestry and US Forestry Service ).
They KNOW that they MUST respond to these valid, legal requests for information… but they still chose ‘gamesmanship’ over ‘transparency’ and they still just keep trying to find ways to do the absolute minimum required action but STILL retain ‘control’ over how much information is seeing the light of day.
John Dougherty’s original article ‘announcing’ the release of the new video footage…
InvestigativeMEDIA
State Forestry Division Releases New Yarnell Hill Fire Video In Response to InvestigativeMEDIA’s Public Records Request
November 8, 2014 By John Dougherty
http://www.investigativemedia.com/state-forestry-division-releases-new-yarnell-hill-fire-video/
From the article itself…
———————————————-
InvestigativeMEDIA learned that there was additional video taken by the PNF firefighters and filed a series of public records with state and federal agencies for the video.
On Oct. 11, InvestigativeMEDIA emailed a request under the Arizona Public Records Law to the state Forestry Division.
Forestry Division spokeswoman Carrie Dennett responded the next morning, Sunday, Oct. 12, by email stating the division did not have any unedited videos beyond what was released as exhibit “A-22 HelmetCamVideo”.
“Arizona State Forestry does not have that unedited version of the helmet cam video,” Dennett stated. “I have given you the only helmet cam video we have in our possession (the one that is about 8 minutes long). If/when we do receive that unedited video, I will fill your attached public records request.”
———————————————-
So right there is the ‘gamesmanship’ coming through on the part of Carrie Dennett.
She is being VERY careful to use the ‘in our possession’ phrase.
That doesn’t mean AZF was not full AWARE of this footage or had even been able to have free ‘access’ to it ( such as on a Server sitting at the US Forestry Service ).
She is only being very careful to phrase her response in terms of ‘possession’ with regards to having any responsibility to fulfill the State level ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.
If I put up a private YouTube channel, post some videos to it, and then give you the LINKS to the videos so you can watch them all day long… are those videos ‘in your possession’?
No… they are not.
You get to ‘have your cake and eat it too’.
You get to SEE and HEAR all the ‘video’ I have… but when someone comes knocking on your door asking to see it you get to hand out the mental gymnastics card and say “That information is not in our possession so we are not required to respond to your request”.
Also from John Dougherty’s article…
———————————————
Also on Oct. 13, InvestigativeMEDIA filed a Freedom of Information Act request with Prescott National Forest for additional video shot by Prescott National Forest firefighters. The PNF forwarded the request to U.S. Forest Service national headquarters in Washington.
On Oct. 21, a Forest Service FOIA officer confirmed by email that the agency had received InvestigativeMEDIA’s records request.
“We are working as quickly as possible to process each request and appeal in the order in which it was received,” FOIA officer George Vargas stated.
The Forest Service did not provide a copy of the videos to InvestigativeMEDIA prior to releasing them to the Forestry Division on Friday.
———————————————
So the mainstream media is making this sound like Arizona Forestry was jumping through hoops to be the ‘good guys’ and try and wrestle more important ‘evidence’ away from the US Forestry Service.
That is NOT how this went down.
It was only after Prescott National Forest forwarded InvestigativeMEDIA’s valid FOIA request on to their corporate headquarters ( probably with an email that said “Oh shit!… what do we do now!” ) that the FEDS came up with their own PLAN to respond to this legal request for information that is known to exist.
THAT is the point where Arizona Forestry got involved.
The US Forestry Service decided it would rather ‘get out in front of this’ and ‘go public’ with the information via Arizona Forestry ( and their website ) than respond directly to a valid FOIA from a media outlet.
Gamesmanship.
That’s all it is.
Has been since day one… and it will continue.
I would imagine that ADOSH is pretty pissed at this point.
THEY were REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to ‘investigate’ this accident.
People ( especially employers ) were/are REQUIRED ( by LAW ) to ‘cooperate’ with that ‘legal’ investigation.
I don’t know if they can ever file any ‘obstructing a legal investigation’ charges against either Arizona Forestry or the US Forestry Service… but if they CAN… then they certainly now have all they proof they need that these agencies were not ‘cooperting’ with their own LEGAL investigation.
Yeah, that “The Arizona State Forestry Division (ASFD) has published 21 newly acquired Yarnell Hill video received from the US Forest Service (USFS) through a Freedom of Information Act request” statement, I knew had to be bogus.
Oh, but look how it’s worded!
I’m almost wondering if, given all these obvious shenanigans, OSHA might just step in.
At this point, it’s also obvious, USFS is not “protecting their employees,” they’re actually HARMING them. Oh, but they’re (miraculously) not DEAD, so……move along, nothing to see here.
Also, USDA OIG has, apparently, been getting much better at understanding and investigating wildfire fatalities, so I’ve read.
Strange. Looking at the AZCentral article “21 videos show chaos surrounding Yarnell Hill Fire deaths,” published yesterday.
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/11/08/arizona-yarnell-fire-videos-released/18750369/
Apparently, according to this article, neither Brendan nor the families nor their lawyers had seen the videos before they were released on Saturday. And the lawyers are po’d about that.
And then there are these ‘gems’ in the USATODAY article.
Apparently ( according to their own published statement on their webiste ), Arizona Forestry says that NONE of this ‘previously unpublished evidence’ entered into THEIR possession until Friday, November 7.
But some simple Prescott Fire Department Captain named J. P. Vincente was aware this was going to happen WEEKS ago… and HE is the one who (supposedly) was ‘warning’ the families it was coming ( but NOT Brendan McDonough himself? ).
WTF?
The USATODAY article…
http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/11/09/21-videos-show-chaos-surrounding-yarnell-hill-fire-deaths/18763511/
From the article…
——————————————–
A few weeks ago, families of the Granite Mountain had been warned by J.P. Vicente, a Prescott fire captain, that the videos might be released.
——————————————–
So how in the hell does a Prescott Fire Captain know exactly how the US Forestry Service is going to respond to an FOIA request… and with WHAT… when Arizona Forestry itself is (now) pretending even they didn’t know what the FEDS had until it showed up last Friday?
The article also says…
——————————————–
Roxanne Warneke, whose husband, Billy Warneke, was one of the 19 men killed, watched the videos in her Marana home. For her, there still are questions. Would the redacted portions have provided those answers?
In one of the video clips, just 29 seconds long, a man says, “I don’t have anybody else that I feel comfortable sending that way.”
Warneke says that sounds as if someone had specifically sent the Granite Mountain crew into the area where they were trapped and killed.
——————————————–
What is NOT clear in the report above is WHEN Roxanne Warneke (quote) “watched the videos in her Marana home”.
Was that BEFORE Friday?
Were ALL of the family members given such an opportunity to ‘watch the videos’ before they were released… but Brendan McDonough was NOT?
Brendan is quoted directly on this USATODAY article…
—————————————————————–
That lookout was Brendan McDonough, the only surviving member of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
He told The Republic on Saturday night that he had not seen the videos or heard the audio.
“It’s not a surprise to me, but I haven’t seen it. I don’t know anything about it,” said McDonough, who lives in Prescott and works for the Boise, Idaho-based Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
“I try to stay out of the politics as much as possible,” he said of the footage. “It’s a huge tragedy, and there’s a lot more people than me involved, and there’s a lot more people that know more than I do.
“I just have the memories of the times with my brothers.”
—————————————————————–
Interesting.
So, from Brendan’s perspective, ANY new ‘evidence’ about what happened in Yarnell that weekend is ( to him ) just ‘politics’.
It’s also pretty interesting that he says this…
“It’s a huge tragedy, and there’s a lot more people than me involved, and there’s a lot more people that know more than I do.”
Really?
A ‘lot more people’ that know a ‘more than you do’ about WHAT, Brendan?
About WHY they were really moving when there was no good reason for them to be doing so… or just about the whole fire in general?
WHO are these ‘lot more people’ being referred to?
Brendan practically just admitted that he KNOWS that there are still some people that might be PROTECTING others ( but not him ) with regards to this incident and that anyone interested in knowing more about that needs to ‘look upstream’.
If Brendan really has been having an ‘epiphany’ and wants to share more about what he knows… he just missed an excellent opportunity to do just that.
Seems there are currently two main media narratives circulating out there.
First, AZCentral’s one, posted yesterday, and now an AP one, posted today.
The USAToday article is the AZCentral one.
The AP story is, essentially, a mixtape of the AZCentral story.
It’s been a little confusing.
Apparently, Brendan is still serving as a microphone for his lawyer(s).
Epiphany or not.
While a certain wife of a certain fallen hotshot side-eyes him across a Prescott parking lot.
Picking my way thru all the videos.
So much stuff here. It’s gonna take some time to process it all.
“C’mon Granite, let’s hear you talk here.”
I spent the weekend reading John MacLean’s “The Esperanza Fire: The agony of Engine 57.”
The (burned and deceased) captain of that engine was pilloried by the Powers That Be for, essentially, doing something stupid. Not everybody agreed to that judgement.
Can we please have a real investigation of this fire?????
Thank you, JD, for posting these videos!!
I posted a bunch of comments that didn’t get posted because something went wrong–I don’t know what. And now I can’t even read them, much less copy/paste them.
These videos are mostly of the Prescott NF crew going in, w/the Blue Ridge Hotshots, after the burnover, through the fire, to eventually the deployment site. Which we have been recently discussing, most likely they would have filmed. And it’s great to see/hear this video.
HOWEVER.
To me, it appears the extent of the video is more to the LATER than the earlier EARLIER timeframe. Thus we don’t have, here, what we were REALLY hoping for–the conversations among the Granite Mountain Hotshots regarding their options and the possible conflicted conversation about heading down into the bowl in order to get to Boulder Springs Ranch, and other interactions with them as they did that.
I am seriously confused about what is going on here.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 9, 2014 at 11:58 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> To me, it appears the extent of the video is more to the LATER
>> than the earlier EARLIER timeframe. Thus we don’t have, here,
>> what we were REALLY hoping for–the conversations among
>> the Granite Mountain Hotshots regarding their options and
>> the possible conflicted conversation about heading down
>> into the bowl in order to get to Boulder Springs Ranch, and
>> other interactions with them as they did that.
These videos prove that Aaron Hulburd was a true ‘videophile’.
He was feeling the need to film EVERYTHING that was happening while he was there… and he was THERE for quite some time even before going to Shrine road or participating directly in the ground rescue mission.
It is NOT credible to think there isn’t even MORE Hulburd video that has yet to see the light of day.
The credibility of Arizona Forestry and the US Forestry Service is absolutely ZERO at this point. I don’t trust a word coming out of their mouths.
It really is time we heard from Aaron Hulburd himself.
Aaron? Are you there?
What’s the real scoop, buddy?
Did you have the GM intra-crew programmed into your radio?
Could you hear any of that GM intra-crew radio traffic that day?
If so… what did YOU HEAR?
If so… what did YOU really RECORD?
Were you INTERVIEWED by anyone?
Did you ( and Clawson and Yowell ) provide standard ‘Unit Logs’ with your own accounts of this day in your own words?
If so… WHO did you give those to… and WHERE are they now?
The videos are not, actually, in chronological order.
The first three, with date/time in their title, were taken at 3:32, 3:33, and 3:34 PM. They show a burn-out being done along a road. I don’t know where that road is.
The next one, M2U00261, was taken while Todd Abel was flying recon on the fire and just before Willis’ crew abandoned their (as Bravo 3 was warning them) hopeless, wasted, mission of protecting Double A Bar Ranch.
The video is taken at the Incident Command Post parking lot.
It was taken WAY before 3:33 PM. I don’t remember exactly when Willis’ crew abandoned the ranch but wasn’t it around 2 PM?
Then the Shrine Road sequence begins.
If there are more videos between the Incident Command Post video and the Shrine Road sequence, then somebody changed the file numbers.
The PNF three crossed the A2A video camera at 4:13 PM.
And, according to “Structure Protections Group 1 Unit Log.pdf, Darrell’s Unit Log (even tho “Group 1” is a typo), at 1430, “Gave Command to for resources to leave ranch. Fire adtivity very active ROS increasing. Fire is in a line East to West against the structures.”
And, at 1445, “Gave command to fire out along East side of main road as the resources evacuated.”
And he logged that the firing project along Model Creek Road ran from about 3 to 3:30 PM.
“Blues Brothers” video at Incident Command Center that has the PNF vehicles in it was started at 3:15 PM.
So, it’s possible the firing that the helmet-cam captures is that firing along Model Creek Road.
Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby’s father ( also named Brian Frisby ) made a PUBLIC comment regarding the newly released videos about 3 hours ago over at the PrescottNews website.
Sounds like even the families of the Blue Ridge Hotshots are pretty sick of this ‘gag order’ that has been placed on their loved ones by the very US Forest Service they work for which is preventing their full involvement with the incident from being discussed in a free and open manner.
http://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/24466-21-videos-released-by-the-asfd-of-the-yarnell-hill-fire
PUBLIC comment from Brian Frisby ( senior )…
————————————————————
My son and his crew were heroes that day. The Blue Ridge Hotshots and a few others risked their lives trying to save their Granite Mountain Brothers. Sadly, nobody has paid any attention to or gives a dam aabout this act of true heroism. Does anybody care how this has affected these guys and their families? They lost and ended up burying 19 of their closest brothers.
————————————————————
I seriously doubt that either Brian Frisby, Trueheart Brown ( or any Blue Ridge Hotshot ) would even ‘accept’ any kind of ‘award’ that someone might want to bestow on them for their actions that day… but I will bet a sawbuck they would like to simply TELL THEIR STORY their own way, in their own words, without the interference of the US Forestry Service.
The WHOLE story. No REDACTIONS.
Maybe very soon they will get the chance to do that.
I certainly hope so.
What I just wrote in response to Brian Frisby’s post there:
“I totally give a damn and I agree! Your son was a HERO, Trew was a hero, Ball was a hero. I’ve been writing that for MONTHS on Investigative Media. My heart goes out to you, Brian’s mother, BRIAN, and the whole Blue Ridge Crew!!!
I believe this fire was seriously mismanaged from the start, totally under-resourced, and the investigation was hastily done and the USFS gag orders, although understandable in a historical context, have additionally contributed to your son’s (and many others) not being able to do what they need to do–speak their truth and tell their stories and be, therefore, honored for the serious intelligence, courage, heroism they gave to this fire and to their brothers, and, therefore being lifted up and HONORED.”
Marti… if you left that comment on the article site… it has either been DELETED or was never posted as a valid ‘comment’.
However… just 2 hours ago… ( and right under her father’s comment ) we now hear directly from Brian Frisby’s SISTER, who also seems upset that the world still doesn’t know the ‘full story’ of what her brother and Blue Ridge saw, heard, and had to go through that fateful day…
———————————————-
Carisa Frisby · Content and Audience Coordinator at Informa Exhibitions
Still chokes me up seeing and hearing what my brother dealt with that day and each day since. Heart breaking
———————————————-
The Forestry Service keeps waving that banner saying “We take care of our own”.
Forget about the ‘gag’ order(s) and what it might be doing to the people involved.
If BOTH Brian Frisby’s father AND sister are suggesting that ‘Blue Ridge’ really has been having a rough time with all of this… is the damn US Forestry Service ‘taking care of their own’ and making SURE these fellas get the right counseling and support services they might need?
Something tells me the answer to THAT question is a big, fat NO.
Interesting. I’ll have to check that. Maybe even repost what I wrote until it shows up.
And, don’t forget, Brian’s mom was saying, at the time of the anniversary, while her son was still fighting wildfires, including Slide Rock, that he was suffering mightily.
Oh, and, remember, that gallant USFS video in memory of Storm King, that they put out for the Memorial Week, essentially all about how IMPORTANT it is for fire-fighters who have been on a fatality fire to be able to TALK ABOUT IT for their own emotional and mental well-being.
Everything I have left to say about this is a long string of four-letter words.
Good thing I’m doing laundry today.
Picking my way thru all the videos.
So much stuff here. It’s gonna take some time to process it all.
“C’mon Granite, let’s hear you talk here.”
I spent the weekend reading John MacLean’s “The Esperanza Fire: The agony of Engine 57.”
The (burned and deceased) captain of that engine was pilloried by the Powers That Be for, essentially, doing something stupid. Not everybody agreed to that judgement.
Can we please have a real investigation of this fire?????
Thank you, JD, for posting these videos!!
I think it’s important to look at these videos for what they are, not what we wish they were. There’s a lot of information here.
That being said, we also need to ask what has possibly edited out of these videos.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 9, 2014 at 11:01 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I think it’s important to look at these videos for what they are, not
>> what we wish they were.
Totally agree.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There’s a lot of information here
You bet. Here’s a VERY short ( but important ) list…
Aaron Hulburd was a true-blue ‘videophile’. Someone who, if he is bothering to wear a Helmet Camera, is going to USE it. Constantly. With all that footage finally available it is now impossible to believe that Aaron Hulburd did NOT turn his Helmet Camera on at various points even BEFORE arriving on Shrine Road and there must be even MORE video with even MORE background radio capture.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33 really did NOT have any idea where GM was specifically located, even AFTER the final MAYDAY exchange. In one of the the videos we hear him reporting that ‘somewhere on the southeast side of the fire’ was the ‘best guess he could make’.
John Burfiend also confirms that VLAT 910 did, in fact, report hearing Eric Marsh calling up from the deployment site AFTER the end of the video that records the 1639 MAYDAY calls. That could still possibly match the 1648 moment when the pilot of Helicopter 5KA was ALSO telling Thomas French ( on Air-To-Air ) that he ALSO thought (quote) “Divsion A just called you”. That would put Eric Marsh ( and others? ) ‘still alive’ as late as 1648, which would change all the ‘fire progression’ assumptions reported in the SAIR.
Frisby and Brown were not WAITING for either Clawson ( alone in his ATV ) or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell and Aaron Hulburd ( together in Yowell’s red ATV ) to ‘keep up with them’ as they charged out west on the rescue mission. Clawson might have been ‘keeping up’ with Frisby and Brown but Hulburd and Yowell were lagging far behind and had to just ‘follow the tracks’ of the others. It even looks like Frisby and Brown could have cared less that Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were even participating in that rescue mission. Frisby and Brown knew what they had to do, and how to get out there, and they headed to the Shrine Road area themselves to accomplish just that. They just simply ‘met up’ with these ‘freelancing’ Bea Day Type 2 team off-the-radar hires on Shrine Road and then just sort of ‘let them’ tag along… but there is no evidence they ( Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell ) were ever ‘assigned’ to this rescue mission. They were truly ‘freelancing’ at that point and it should be wondered if they were even covered by Workers Compensation insurance during that ‘rescue mission’ since they weren’t even really ‘on the clock’ at this fire.
The videos appear to show both ‘Safety Officers’ Tony Sciacca AND ‘Marty Cole’ standing right there in the parking lot of the Shrine of St. Joseph as everyone was evacuating from the Youth Camp.
We do NOT see the Granite Mountain buggies go by. That also seems to have been ‘edited’ out. We also only see ONE of the Blue Ridge Buggies heading out.
Tony Sciacca has testified that he actually just THOUGHT the Granite Mountain crew were in their buggies as he saw those buggies pass him and that is why he wasn’t all that concerned about them… even at a time ( 4:20 PM ) when there was still plenty of time for him to VERIFY their whereabouts, their status, and their ‘safety’.
Yet… in these videos… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell says clearly ( to someone ) that he ONLY saw DRIVERS in the Granite Mountain buggies. That is why Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were so concerned about Granite Mountain in this same timeframe. THEY knew Grainte had NOT ‘evacuated’ yet… but the actual Safety Officer who was standing right there ( Tony Sciacca ) thought they WERE ‘in the buggies’.
More ‘total fail’ and miscommunication that day.
More ‘holes in the swiss cheese’ still continuing to ‘line up’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> That being said, we also need to ask what has possibly
>> edited out of these videos.
Yes… and it’s also pretty obvious there is probably even MORE video that hasn’t even been released (yet). They are still just ‘picking and choosing’ what to release in response to valid, legal FOIA requests… as they have both been doing since day one. The trust level is ZERO right now as far as Arizona Forestry AND the US Forestry Service goes.
In some of the videos… someone has simply ‘erased’ parts of the audio track while leaving the video running. What’s up with that? What is being SAID either by the men in the foreground or over the radio during that run out to the west ridge that the FEDS still don’t want anyone to hear?
And I will say it again ( I’m going to turn into a broken record on this one )…
WHERE are the official written (unredacted) ‘Unit Logs’ for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… and/or the complete INTERVIEW transcripts that surely must exist for all three of these ‘key’ players in the incident?
If I actually believed/trusted either AZ Fire or the USFS, I would conclude that the videos that end with an “R” are the ones that USFS (and only the USFS) redacted.
Unfortunately, I don’t believe/trust either of them, at this point.
Here is what I believe US Forestry was doing with the ‘R’ suffix on just SOME of those newly released Hulburd video clips.
If they felt they had to CUT just SOME parts of one of the videos clips they were going to release as far as VIDEO ( blackout the screen ) or the AUDIO ( erase it but keep the video running )… and they KNEW these ‘edits’ were going to remain ‘visible’…
…then they felt the need to put an ‘R’ on the end of the filename.
If they were simply CUTTING video from either the START or the END of this footage they had in their possession… then they did NOT feel the need to indicated it has been ‘Redacted’ in any way.
Example…
Video clip M200264 is the one that actually captures the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘met up’ with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell in the parking lot of the St. Joseph Shrine.
The video ENDS with these men all ‘greeting’ each other and then we KNOW that for the next TWO full minutes… Frisby and Brown were giving them a full ‘intel’ report. ( They said so in their own Unit Logs and the GPS tracking data confirms the 2+ minutes they spent doing that. )
Video MU00264 just abruptly ENDS right after the men have said ‘hello’ to each other.
It is not credible to believe that Aaron Hulburd himself would have chosen that moment to turn his Helmet Camera OFF.
It just wouldn’t make any sense for him to have done so, give the content and the nature of his filming habits as revealed by all this new video.
So I believe that is a HUGE ‘cut’ at the end of the M2U00264 video specifically designed to ERASE the content of that meeting between those men…
…but there is no ‘R’ on the M200264 filename.
There are also some videos that have the FACES of some people in some vehicles ‘pixelized’ so that they cannot be recognized.
Even THOSE video clips have no ‘R’ on the end to indicate they were edited and ‘altered’ at all.
So yes… TRUST level is at an absolute ZERO at this point.
And thanks for the summary.
That “C’mon Granite, let’s hear ya talk” comment is so painful to hear.
I’m having trouble orienting the fire “breakthrough” location(s).
It seems there’s one first one further south on Shrine Rd where they’re looking at a bunch of smoke and flames and venting propane tanks in front of them, and they first go through that.
Then there’s the big one further in where they spend a bit of time talking about not becoming “part of the problem.”
The burning area they have to extremely carefully get through as quickly as possible looks to be to the left (west) of them. I can’t figure out where that is.
They really did risk their lives. And, yes, if anything had “happened” to them, they might not have been covered, since they weren’t officially assigned, as far as we know.
I’m not getting the same sense that you are that Brian and Trew were so nonchalant about the three PNF guys going with them. They named themselves “Task Force 1.” I don’t think they would have done that if they weren’t including the other two UTVs. A task force isn’t just one vehicle.
It also seems to me the PNF guys (via their comments) are thinking GM is closer to them than to the ridge on the west side of the fire. And it seems to me that B33’s comment that he thinks GM is on the SE corner may have confirmed that inaccuracy in their minds.
It also seems to me (although that conversation is really hard to hear) that, by the time BR is telling them what they think Eric was “deciding,” BR thinks GM is much closer to the west ridge than to Shrine Road.
But I’m still not sure BR was sure they knew what road GM had descended on. They still could have been thinking GM might have descended on the road they went in on.
I find it really weird that the YouTube account that AZFS is posting all these videos to doesn’t actually show all these videos–you have to access them via their website:
https://azsf.az.gov/new-video-clips
What is that all about???
Arizona Forestry must have their actual YouTube account totally ‘locked up’ and ‘private’… and they have only flipped the ‘Public Video’ switch on THESE videos they uploaded to some folder under that ‘private’ YouTube account/channel.
Makes you wonder what ELSE might be sitting ‘right there’ in that account.
The EMBED code for these videos also works ( so anyone can be displaying these videos on their own web pages ) so that means these videos really DO have the ‘Public Video’ flag set up on that ‘private’ YouTube account.
OK these finally got thru moderation.
It’s been a very long day.
You accidentally had the two extra characters ‘ma’ on the end of your NAME for those posts. The name you were trying to post under was ‘Marti Reedma’ instead of just ‘Marti Reed’… The WordPress software is probably using a ‘whitelist’ at this point but that specific name wasn’t ‘on the list’ and the default behavior then is to have the comment fall into ‘moderation’ first.
Same is true for the EMAIL field when it comes to WordPress.
You could sign a comment with the same NAME you always use… but if you suddenly use a different email address ( or even just mis-type your regular one ) then WordPress will also see you as a ‘new commenter’.
LOL. The dangers of posting around midnight after a REALLY long day…….
A quick note haven’t had time to review all the video but from what I understand from AZ Fire and John there is a lot not included that the FS felt we should not hear. Protecting there employees etc. that’s to bad maybe John or someone will shake it lose and get all. We are being fed crumbs rather than the whole slice of bread.
Will have to calculate how much we were fed and how much we are not seeing/hearing out of 43 min. if that is the correct time.
So I added up 42 min. 9 sec. so how much more of the video is there?
Did they release roughly 43 min and there is a lot more?
Was there more at the beginning that was held back?
It left more questions than it answered as of now.
Just watched all the new videos. There is a lot of it. Do not think I heard any communication between GM and/or Eric and anyone else prior to the breaking in call, but I could be wrong. Look at video 271 – this involves someone from BR saying something about what GM was doing and something about their lookout. May be nothing but would like to hear what he said. There are skips between the videos, at one point the recorder says it had been off for 2-3 minutes.
Newly released Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Cam clip M2U00271 is just part of what I have suspected existed all along. This particluar clip is, in fact, that moment when Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown ‘paused’ for a few minutes at the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot during their evacuation from the Youth Camp and were then talking with Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( who was filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
This video is only 59 seconds long.
The Blue Ridge GPS data says there were right there having this conversation for more than TWO minutes… so obviously we are only hearing HALF of their conversation with them.
Transcribing all newly released videos now. Stay tuned. This one is FIRST on the list.
mike… correction for above.
I had ALL of the 21 new videos open on the screen when I made that post above and I got confused about the filenames.
M2U00264 is the video that actually ‘ends’ with the moment when Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown ‘meet up’ with Prescott National Forest ‘off the radar’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd ( the one filming ) and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( the chatty guy with the beard and the radio in his hand ).when they were ‘evacuating’ from the Youth Camp.
M2U00271 ( which contains the audio you mention ) is actually part of the moment(s) when Frisby and Brown RETURNED to the Shrine Road Area in their Polaris Ranger in order to try and find a way to ‘break through’ and go find Granite Mountain.
THAT is when we HEAR Frisby telling Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell about his last contact with Eric Marsh.
We actually do NOT hear ANY of that 2 minute ‘intel report’ that Frisby and Brown said they gave to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell as they were evacuating from the Youth Camp and stopped to talk to them in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot. All we hear is the men ‘greeting’ each other in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot and then the video abruptly ‘cuts off’.
I believe that is heavy ‘redaction’ there at the end of M2U0064 that was performed by the US Forestry Service with the direct intent of NOT letting anyone hear what Blue Ridge Superintendent Frisby and Captain Brown actually ‘reported’ to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell at that time.
I had said before that even if we ever saw more Helmet-Cam video that there was a good chance that crucial meeting between Frisby, Brown, Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell would end up being ‘edited out’ of whatever was released and that appears to be exactly what the US Forestry has done here.
One thing that is very striking in these new video clips is the actual extent to which these three Bea Day Type 2 team ‘off the radar’ hires who ( as far as we know ) never had any actual ‘assignments’ on this fire and were technically just ‘freelancers’ were involved in what what happening and even ‘giving orders’ to the other firefighters who DID have ‘official assignments’ on that fire that day.
It is still NOT credible that these men ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) would NOT have been fully interviewed by the SAIT and/or ADOSH during their investigation(s).
It’s nice to see the video that has always been suspected to exist finally showing up… but WHERE are the ‘Unit Logs’ and/or ‘Interviews’ for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell?
Copy, And I agree.
AZF says
“On November 7, 2014, the following video clips were received by Arizona State Forestry through a Freedom of Information Act request to the US Forest Service. To be transparent with the public, the videos are presented exactly as they have been received. The redactions were done before these videos came into the possession of Arizona State Forestry.”
What does this supposedly mean and is it even remotely believable?
This fire has, IMHO, not even been remotely contained.
We can only hope that the original still exists and is not in the hands of the FS.
As a Retired FS WLFF I am totally disgusted with the Forest Service and what they are doing.
What happened to the openness and real investigation to move forward with lessons learned?
Repressing the facts and information accomplishes nothing but distrust in the system.
For crying out loud this wasn’t even there fire.
Aaron, I’m sure, has the original video. No photographer/videographer would EVER lose custody of their original (without copying it) without a huge fight.
You ALWAYS hand over COPIES.
There is a partial transcript of Frisby’s words in the Az Republic article. He said that they were in the black and then Eric decided that there was a trail that kind of ran along the ridge……..green. I hear exactly that, can not make out the tiny bit before the word “green”.
Frisby’s words would suggest the move was Marsh’s idea. Marsh was heard elsewhere saying they were moving to their safety zone. That has been roundly criticized as being obtuse, but could that not have been exactly what they were doing? They were headed for the ranch – which had been identified as a safety zone. A guy in video 264 says there were 2 engines there at the ranch. Could it just be that – they either thought something was wrong staying where they were or they did not want to stay – and then thought they could reach the ranch safely?
I have another question. There has been debate about whether GM had reached its work limit – 13 or 14 days – some have suggested that they should never have been sent. Was GM going to be relieved the next day – was that planned or required? If they were going to be going home, would that have motivated them to get to the ranch and closer to their buggies?
Mike I have said all along that the ranch was a bad location for a safety zone for GM. To Far, Down Hill, heavy brush, lost sight of fire.
For crews at Helms Ranch or on the road near Helms ranch a good safety zone if things went south.
You just don’t ID a safety zone over a mile from where you are working You should never stretch that far 100 to 200 yards is the outside of a escape plan.
So your last sentence is what I have tried to say all along end of shift get off the mountain Wrong choice stay in black and Waite it out then hike off. Or go down and drop off the back side into the desert and to Hwy. 89 about 1 and 1/2 miles as the crow flies but no heavy brush. The fire never burned very far off the top of the ridge. With no brush to contend with they would have made good time Helms ranch was always a bad choice for them
they gust got it in there head that’s where they needed to go.
There Hillbilly rules (the 10) modern Fire Fighters don’t need to follow them as McDonough was taught by Marsh/Steed……….
Reply to mike post on November 9, 2014 at 5:08 pm
>> mike said…
>>
>> There is a partial transcript of Frisby’s words in the Az Republic
>> article. He said that they were in the black and then Eric decided
>> that there was a trail that kind of ran along the ridge……..green.
>> I hear exactly that, can not make out the tiny bit before the
>> word “green”.
I don’t believe there is any ‘tiny bit’ of any conversation before Frisby says the word ‘green’ there. I’ve enhanced the audio there and I believe Frisby was just pausing… or might have just said ‘uh’ before saying ‘green’.
Here is what I have ( so far ) for that part of that particular video…
—————————————-
+0:21
(Brian Frisby): They were sittin’ in cold black.
+0:23
(Trueheart Brown): They were in black.
+0:25
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): (So) THAT’S what they were talking about? (The) Lookout?
+0:28
(Brian Frisby): No. No. (He’s) in black…
+0:30
(KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell): ( Overlapping with Frisby ) I heard that (one).
+0:31
(Brian Frisby): …and Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around. That lookout was down below. I went in to go tie in with Eric… and that’s when it picked up. I just happened to stumble upon the lookout… without the… uh… I grabbed him. ( He’s out ).
——————————————————
>> mike also wrote…
>>
>> Frisby’s words would suggest the move was Marsh’s idea.
Yes. They do.
I’m actually reading that as an ‘incomplete thought’ from Frisby that he never really finished. Frisby starts to tell KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell that Eric had ‘decided’ something but then just physically describes the ‘trail’ ( heading south ) that he saw with his own eyes when he was up there from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM… and he never really ‘completed his thought’ and told KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell exactly what it was that he seemed to know Marsh had ‘decided’.
Frisby statement again is…
“Eric decided that the trail that kinda follows that ridge… green… goes around.”
Decided WHAT?
That the trail ‘goes around’?
I don’t think so. Marsh already KNEW it ‘went around’ as it headed south.
I think Frisby knew more than he actually ended up saying there and ( perhaps ) meant to report “Eric decided they were gonna take that trail and head south.”
Even if that isn’t what Frisby really MEANT to report to Yowell ( but didn’t complete his thought )… notice that at NO time does Frisby say that he thought Eric or Jesse had ‘decided’ to ‘head to a ranch to the north’ as the SAIR document specifically says.
I still believe that statement in the SAIR about Brian Frisby ‘believing’ that Marsh was ‘headed to ranch to the NORTH’ was total fiction made up by the SAIT and they put that thought into Frisby’s head ( and the words into his mouth ) only to justify their own pre-determined narrative.
>> mike also wrote…
>>
>> Marsh was heard elsewhere saying they were moving to their
>> safety zone. That has been roundly criticized as being obtuse,
>> but could that not have been exactly what they were doing?
>> They were headed for the ranch – which had been identified
>> as a safety zone.
Once again… we are seeing more evidence of the ‘total fail’ that took place that day with regards to ONE group of Hotshots being ‘briefed’ by SPGS Gary Cordes about a ‘Safety Zone’… and then just one hour later the NEXT group of Hotshots working the SAME area received no such briefing.
It still seems ( even in these new videos ) that Brian Frisby had no frickin’ idea where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was or that it had been designated as the ‘Safety Zone’ that morning for the other Hotshots who got to the same area before them.
I still believe that if Brian Frisby HAD been properly ‘briefed’ before being placed in that area that day… there is a good chance he would have FULLY understood all of Eric’s transmissions’ that mentioned ‘the ranch’ and ‘our escape route’ and there is also a good chance Brian Frisby could have then done an ‘intervention’.
Frisby was looking at the fire behavior up close and personal from a better perspective than even Marsh or Steed had way out on that ridge.
If Frisby had known where the Boulder Springs Ranch really was, and that it was the place Marsh was talking about ‘heading to’… I think Brian Frisby might have actually said to Marsh…
“You don’t have TIME for that. STAY where you ARE.”
Frisby never got the chance to say that to Marsh.
Frisby was NOT properly ‘briefed’ that day… and that just became one more hole in the swiss cheese that ‘aligned’ later that afternoon.
>> mike also said
>>
>> A guy in video 264 says there were 2 engines there at the ranch.
That actually doesn’t match some testimony from DJ Helm, who was
at the ranch. She said she never saw ANY firefighters there at the ranch
in the timeframe we are talking about. I will go check that out.
Whoever was saying that on the radio may have been mistaken… and just THOUGHT that is were ‘2 engines’ were around that time.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> Could it just be that – they either thought something was wrong
>> staying where they were or they did not want to stay – and then
>> thought they could reach the ranch safely?
There was NOTHING wrong with staying where they were… other than the fact that it put them ‘out of the game’ for a while until they could walk back to town.
There is still no doubt they THOUGHT they had time to reach the ranch.
They must have. They weren’t insane.
>> mike also said…
>>
>> I have another question. There has been debate about whether
>> GM had reached its work limit – 13 or 14 days – some have
>> suggested that they should never have been sent. Was GM
>> going to be relieved the next day – was that planned or required?
>> If they were going to be going home, would that have motivated
>> them to get to the ranch and closer to their buggies?
At one point in Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview… he was describing this alleged ‘argument’ they had and Marquez just honestly told the ADOSH investigators that he thought Marsh felt like Marquez was trying to ‘take real estate away from him for the next day’.
That sounds like Marquez had the impression that Marsh was thinking about ‘the next day’ even while fighting the fire on June 30.
If ( on the other hand ) Both Marsh and Steed KNEW that there was no way they were going to even be ALLOWED to work the ‘next day’… and all they wanted to do was end THAT work day and go home safely…
…then they really DID make ‘all the wrong decisions’ to accomplish that goal.
All they had to do was wait 20 to 30 minutes where they were… and they could have walked back down the same road the ground rescue team took to try and find them.
Sunday, June 30, 2013 was Granite Mountain’s scheduled day off and the 13th day in a row of work. The federal rules allow 14 consecutive days of work.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/granite-mountain-hotshot-crew-sent-to-yarnell-fire-on-scheduled-day-off/
Copy. Thank you!
I periodically tweet this page via the hashtags #YarnellHillFire and #wildfire. If you want to bring more eyes to this conversation, you should, too!
Elizabeth,
Whoops! It appears that you have put your Logical Phallacy phoot in your mouth once again.
Woops! It appears you put your comment in the wrong location~
Bob Powers and Fred Schoeffler said the helmet camera was going to be released by ADOSH days ago. But yet it is not here. Before you start rumors, guys, do your research first, ok?
Also, as best I can tell, there is zero validity to the rumor Bob and Fred keep trying to start that Brendan has some big secret he is withholding and refusing to share and only now willing to share.
Given how much pain you went through, Bob, when you lost your dad, it is really disappointing and baffling that you are willing to cause pain to others by starting rumors and creating needless drama. Facts can be good, but rumors and drama can be incredibly hurtful and mean to people who are already grieving.
Just my opinion, with no disrespect intended.
Not Rumors as to the Video Head cam and as to McDonough giving testimony to Lawyers In a deposition. Information as to there release I classed as rumors since I had no direct facts as to when or official release.
I do not purposely attempt to cause any Pain to others. My lessons learned were yes I felt a great loss for my Father. As I grew older and learned the information about the fire I could say that yes my father made mistakes that could have changed the outcome. The number 1 thing was Posting a Lookout. He had an opportunity to do that and did not as in many accidents its the little and simple things that change what happens.
So back to the Head Cam It in fact was viewed by Families and others recently and is to be released if you are so close to the families maybe you should talk to them.
Yes Elizabeth I disrespect you and your ignorance.
We search for and discuss information here that is what investigations do no matter how thin or questionable the information as a Law professor you should know that.
There is reliable information out there that is out of your reach but with in my Wild land fire circles that are close to the Fire Fighters that were in Yarnell.
So I would say wait and see or show me your facts that would contradict mine.
Actually every body here has asked you that question to date you have shown nothing.
I will leave it at that
Yes I protect my sources because they are my WFF Brothers and there requests are sacred to me. You seem to not have that willingness to protect those that you said you would keep there identity to your self.
I have no trust Elizabeth in those that turn on others with no remorse, yes I have a code of ethics that I have lived by all my life.
I have posted the new Yarnell Hill video released today by the Forestry Division in response to public records request filed by InvestigativeMEDIA.
Collura, Joy A says
NOVEMBER 8, 2014 AT 6:46 PM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
Now ours was not rumor about what was said at the media fence and again in Prescott yet a person on here did call again to that official and now what was a 3 day hiking plan/cowboy campfire (where Sonny has been building the horno) with an official and Prescott business owner and such was squashed at today’s meeting in a kind sweet sort of way with the gentleness that the fire department will do such if need be and there seems to not be a need all of a sudden. So there is no hike with what Sonny earlier stated and I confirmed and the mayor is not taking the hike with the hikers. Maybe now all the calls will cease to him. I PROMISE you all if we hike someone and they don’t want their name revealed we still will always keep folks in the loop because for us this is not about brotherhood or pacts or any thing but just the hikers who eye witness the fire and if anyone wants to get a feel for it—I get it. It is sad. It breaks us up to be up there but we will for clarity and truth.
I just ran into old friends and they say I look haggard so I may not be eager to hike lately but we will and we still have quite a few still pending and there is one person who is always welcome on any of our hikes and that person is a family member to one of the fallen. Good night. I guess I have got to learn about you all here and I just do not see any of us putting things out for creation but as we hear it; heads up…I just like both of you that commented here and I think it is that value of time we all should see in this not who says what –where-when—etc—it is 50-50 on the grieving process yet there is stuff due to come out because Bob is not the only area we heard it from—some Prescott locals too…
Bob and Fred: The person who told me that Robert-the-Second was Fred Schoeffler was was not Fred himself but, rather, it was a guy who worked closely with Fred for years. He was able to tell who Fred was here on IM and what names Fred was posting under based on having worked closely with Fred and having heard Fred’s conspiracy theory for years and having heard Fred talk about logical fallacies and all that for years. So don’t pin that on me.
Apparently when guys live, work, sleep, and travel together for a long, long time, they get used to each others’ way of communicating and trains of thought, such that it apparently becomes easier to figure out (for them!) who “Robert-the-Second” and various other anonymous names that he posts under are (e.g. Fred). (To be candid, of the many anonymous WFFs who are talking to me, I have never heard another one use the phrase “logical fallacy” the way that Fred does, but that is beside the point.)
I do not betray good, honest WFFs who contact me to tell me things off the record, nor would I. And there are a gaggle of them who can confirm that. So please stop making it seem like *I* somehow violated a confidence that Fred himself entrusted to me. That is not true, and I will keep defending myself every time you bring it up, Bob.
You are quite the SPINSTRESS when it comes to making yourself look good to the public. You are a real piece of work. Some one from New York would not even know what a good Honest Wild Land Fire Fighter Is You Have No Clue.
OH and Logical Fallacy is your handle on your Web site that you talk to your self on. STOP THE BS———-
You continue to attack people on here instead of adding to the conversation. Elizabeth who cares who each of us are most here do not.
You are obsessed with attacks on who is who .
You no longer impress me go find another sand box to play in………
Again, Bob, I am not a spinstress – I am telling the truth, and Fred Schoeffler (or Robert-the-Second or whatever he wants us to call him on here) can confirm it. I had never even HEARD of the name “Fred Schoeffler” before one of Fred’s former colleagues told me that Robert-the-Second (or whatever other anonymous name Fred uses on any given day to post on this blog or the wildfiretoday.com blog or wherever) was actually Fred Schoeffler. That’s not something I COULD have come up with by myself, because I do not know Fred. I am not spinning anything – again, you can ASK Fred yourself.
As to your suggestion that I am attacking someone, look at your own behavior, Bob.
Elizabeth remember all those E-Mails you sent me………
Forget it you are not worth the time to answer you any more.
Your Fixation on Fred and you attempts to attack him answers every thing I have said not attacking you just telling the truth.
I have posted the new Yarnell Hill video released today by the Forestry Division in response to public records request filed by InvestigativeMEDIA.
Thank you, John.
THANK YOU JOHN DOUGHERTY FOR THIS PAGE FOR ALL OF US TO JOIN TOGETHER TO EXPRESS OURSELVES.
THANK YOU.
I guess we are still waiting for the Head Cam release as it did not happen any time last week.
So I believe that WTKTT said that the lawsuit date is the 14th. Not sure that will cause a release of any thing. You would think some things should be coming to a head. Wish I had more info to give you
I wish I too had more information. I always share who we are going to meet or have met with yet now we learned by us sharing on here that at some point who we plan to hike than that person was getting calls as to share the more information…well, I get the interest in wanting to know what they know yet I also get BOTH sides due to the sensitivity of law suits and barriers and walls. I mean to this date I was offended by a local couple back in April 08-Jan. 09′ and in that I got agitated and enough was enough but those folks have an axe to grind to the world as I took it personal back then…in time I learned this was a pattern to their lives and I was not the only person who seen such behavior yet to this date the couple carry on with their masked behind faith ways but doing another. For example, the man left a voice mail on machine lying and yet he is a devout Christian? The lady in a public spot states rubbish trying to get newcomers to buy into it yet if these two ever get to a spot I do not want to bother with them I have enough documented proof to end it with a restraining order and file charges but I don’t because to me they rather live a pipe dream of rubbish versus reality and I reckon them being almost 80 helps me not put them in the system. Point being. There has not been a bad hike yet. Even Shaun McKinnon who poorly reported his inaccuracies about the hikers I still liked the guy just felt he had a glaze to his story that was not truth and reality. I have been judged alot lately for how I am hiking folks out there but in the end I only have one to judge me and I will hold tight to Jim Posh’s statement; the value of time. It is important to make the HIGHER UPS see the whole package here. Time to rethink their current money market game- that is all. SAFETY MATTERS!
I’m going to repost this here at the top so it doesn’t get lost. I just wrote, somewhere down below, this, regarding the photos Joy sent out:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 2, around 11AM, starting from the Incident Command Post parking lot and traveling down the road showing all the various vehicles and the tents. That’s the series that includes Bitterroot Helitack Buggy, Minnesota Helitack Utility Truck, and Apple Valley Helitack (CA) Utility Truck.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 4, around 6:30 pm, of the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning right (west) onto Hays Ranch Road.
That’s when the evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted. That would explain the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning on to Hays Ranch Road.
The shadows in these photos match the timestamps.
I just downloaded ALL of these photos. They’re definitely worth looking at.
Thank you, Joy, for making them public via email, and THANK YOU to whoever took them.
I don’t know where all the June 30 photos were taken from. Given what I’m seeing of the rest of them (especially the ones from July 4, when the Peeple’s Valley evacuation was lifted), I’m guessing they were taken by someone living in Peeple’s Valley. They really show how dangerous the fire was looking to people living there. And WOW, I’ve never seen a cardinal (or a photo of one) in Arizona.
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.
But somehow they managed to take a series of photos on July 2 of the vehicles parked near the Incident Command Center.
This is a really great collection of photos of those critical first days of the fire. So THANK YOU JOY and THANK YOU to whoever took them.
So I’m putting all these photos in my Dropbox and here’s the link to them:
https://www.dropbox.com/home/public/Yarnell/2014-10%20Via%20Joy
I hope this works.
It works. It will take a little while for all the photos to upload.
Marti
The link only work for you, If you look at the html address it locates your HOME box, so when I put that up it wants to look in my home box
DT
Ooops! Thanks for the hedz up!
I’ll fix it and repost!
Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 12:04 PM
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30. Actually I sent Kathy and Connie’s photos which makes it 2 separate cameras.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.I will email her and ask and get back to you.
Thanks Joy!
The metadata from all the photos in your email has them all taken with a Nikon Coolpix S3300V 1.0. Unfortunately there doesn’t show a camera id number, so, if there were two people taking the photos, they were using the same kind of camera.
PS I don’t remember ever seeing a cardinal in Arizona, and there’s one in one of the photos. Interesting.
I’m FINALLY reading John MacLean’s book on the Esperanza Fire. Very well-written.
PS
I just downloaded those other photos you sent of the maps of the houses.
What are they?
Marti
when you are on your Dropbox home page, you will want to share a LINK of that folder and post the HTML code that Dropbox will create
DT
I just downloaded ALL of these photos. They’re definitely worth looking at.
ACTUALLY I AM TRYING TO ARRANGE APPOINTMENT WITH KATHY HUNTER GLOVER TO SEE PHOTOS AGAIN BECAUSE I WAS JUST FOCUSED TO SEEKING ANY FIRE PHOTO OR ANY WITH PEOPLE OR VEHICLES THAT NIGHT BUT SOMETHING TELLS ME I NEED TO MEET WITH HER FOR THEIR COMPLETE EVACUATION ACCOUNT AND RETURN.
Thank you, Joy, for making them public via email, and THANK YOU to whoever took them
.I DID GET KATHY HUNTER APPROVAL TO VIEW THIS PUBLICLY BETWEEN FOLKS I FEEL COULD HELP IN REACHING THE TRUTH OF THE YARNELL HILL FIRE. THIS AFFECTED SO MANY LOCALLY THAT ONE THING IN ALL THIS I DO RECALL MY HIKE WITH JIM POSH (COPY/PASTE FROM HIS SITE: who lost a brother in the Colorado fire, has the goal to make the best protective equipment for firefighters so that when training, tactics and safety procedures fail, a firefighter has a fighting chance of survival in a fast moving wildfire. Storm King Mountain™ tests these products in both laboratory and actual wildland fire conditions.) IN THAT HIKE WITH HIM AND HIS WIFE—I LEARNED THE TRUE VALUE OF TIME. IF HIS BROTHER HAD LESS THAN A MINUTE HE WOULD STILL BE ALIVE. THANK YOU ALL FOR NOT SWEATING THE PETTY AGITATION I SHOWED ON THIS SITE EARLIER BUT IT SEEMS MY CELL AND LOCAL LIBRARIES AND HOME PC IS EITHER BEEN TAMPERED WITH BECAUSE I GO TO ANOTHER AREA THAT IS NEW AND MY POSTS GO RIGHT AWAY. YOU SEE THE VERY CAVES I WENT IN FOR SO MANY YEARS SONNY WOULD NEVER GO EVEN NEAR THEM…HE TAUGHT ME THE DANGERS BY HOW TO LOOK FOR IT IN SMELLS AND ROCKS AND WIDOW MAKERS. I WISH I COULD GO BACK IN TIME BECAUSE FRANK SERROS AND TOMMY MAIDEN AND COUPLE OTHERS THEY WERE WITH ME AND WE ALWAYS HIKED AND EXPLORED THOSE CAVES AND THEY ARE DEAD NOW. SONNY STRONGLY BELIEVES MY BODY WITH TUMORS WERE CAUSED BY THE HIGH CONCENTRATION OF ARSENIC, MERCURY AND CYANIDE. WHEN I HIKED WITH THOSE PEOPLE MARCH 2009-JUNE 2009 BY SEPTEMBER FRANKIE WENT IN FOR A HEADACHE TO HAVE THE MOST SEVERE BRAIN TUMOR THAT HE UNDERWENT SURGERY ASAP. IT LOOKED LIKE BY APRIL 2010 HE WAS DOING BETTER AND ON MY LOCAL HIKING PAGE YOU CAN SEE AFTER ALL THE CHEMO AND SURGERY HE WENT TO HIKE WITH ME AND HIS PROFESSOR BROTHER DR. RICHARD SERROS. I FELT PROUD EVEN THOUGH HE WAS NOT FRANKIE FROM APRIL 2009, THE EFFORT TO HIKE WAS THERE. IMMEDIATELY THE JOURNEY BEGAN ALL OVER FOR HIM THIS TIME THE TUMOR RAPIDLY GROWING AND AGAIN SURGERY BUT AFTER SO MUCH ATTACKS TO THE HEART AND ALL HE BECAME IN A VEGGIE STATE AND HE DIED FEB 2011. DURING THAT TIME HE PLEADED HE WAS HAVING PC PROBLEMS AND HE NEEDED AN EXTERNAL HARD DRIVE. I HAVE 2; ONE A BACKUP TO THE OTHER SO I ERASED THE ONE SO HE COULD BORROW IT. WELL, I WAS GOING FROM THE BEDROOM TO THE KITCHEN TO PLUG IN THE 1 EHD AND I HAD CONVULSIONS AND PASSED OUT LATER AWOKE TO A SMASHED UP EHD. THAT WAS A SAD DAY FOR ME BECAUSE CHARLES CASMIR LIPINSKI INVESTED $3,000 IN TRYING TO GET THE INFORMATION OFF IT BUT TO NO PREVAIL IT WAS BEYOND DAMAGED. I LOST ALL MY CULINARY ICE ART PICS AND ALL MY WORK AND FAMILY/FRIEND PICS; EVERYTHING THAT HAD TO DO WITH ME AND MY LIFE. I THAN REALIZED SOON AFTER I WOULD BEGIN TO GET HEALTH DIAGNOSIS THAT WERE FOREIGN TO MATCH UP TO ME. I AM A STUBBORN MULE. YOU ARE TELLING ME WHAT? I AM NOT GOING TO CLAIM THESE INSIDIOUS REMARKS SO I BEGAN TO GET MY OWN BLOOD WORK AND IT MATCHED TO THEIRS. I BEGAN TO DO THERMOGRAMS, MRIS AND CAT SCANS AND FOUND INACCURACIES. I GET I HAVE A BODY IN DIRE STRAITS AND ITS LIKE JIM ROTH STATED—THE VALUE OF TIME SO I KNOW I CAN GO HOME AND BE RELAXED AND BE AROUND LOVED ONES WHO DEARLY LOVE AND CARE FOR ME BUT I WILL DO WHAT I CAN TO KEEP BEING THERE AT THE RIGHT MOMENT FOR THAT ONE PERSON TO SAY “HEY, YOUR THE HIKERS…I HAVE PHOTOS/VIDEOS” AND I WILL BE THERE UNTIL THE DAY MY LAST BREATHE IS HERE ON EARTH. RECENTLY AND IT SEEMS LATE FALL LAST YEAR AND NOW THIS YEAR I GET FOLKS WHISPER TO ME TO BE CAUTIOUS OR WARN ME…NO JAIL TIME WILL BE IN MY CARDS IF EVERYTHING IS OF THE TRUTH AND JUST BECAUSE I REALLY HAVE NOT DONE ANYTHING WRONG. IF ANYTHING AS I RENEWED MY STATE LAND PASS THE STATE SHOULD THANK ME FOR THEIR INCREASE SALES IN STATE LAND PASSES. MAYBE THEY CAN TAKE FUNDS FROM THERE TO HELP PROPERLY ASSESS THIS FIRE VERSUS ROLLING THE BLAME DOWN HILL.
I WILL ALWAYS MAKE SURE ANYONE SAYING STEED SAY THIS OR MARSH DID THIS; SHOW ME. I REALLY FEEL SOMEONE WHO KNEW THEM WELL WILL FINALLY SHARE PUBLICLY ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT WERE THERE THAT DAY OF THE FIRE. THAT IS THE TRUE BRAVE HEROIC THING TO DO! I LOVE YOU ALL ON HERE THAT POST. I DO APOLOGIZE ABOUT MY RANTS OR RAVES OR AGITATION BUT IT DOES GET OLD TO TYPE ONE POST TO NEVER SEEING IT GO ON HERE-
I don’t know where all the June 30 photos were taken from. Given what I’m seeing of the rest of them (especially the ones from July 4, when the Peeple’s Valley evacuation was lifted), I’m guessing they were taken by someone living in Peeple’s Valley. They really show how dangerous the fire was looking to people living there. And WOW, I’ve never seen a cardinal (or a photo of one) in ArizonaYES, I WISH MORE LOCALS SHARED PUBLICLY..
I don’t know how the people taking these photos (they’re all taken from the same camera) I WAS TOLD 2 CAMERAS SO THAT IS INTERESTING-took the July 2 photos of the vehicles parked around the Incident Command Center and then down the road to the photos that included the various Helitack Crew trucks (including the Bitterroot Helitack Crew) and the tents, if they evacuated from Peeple’s Valley on June 30.
Did they not evacuate on June 30 (some people didn’t) or did they evacuate and then go back in? I don’t know.I WILL ASK ABOUT THIS—
But somehow they managed to take a series of photos on July 2 of the vehicles parked near the Incident Command Center.
This is a really great collection of photos of those critical first days of the fire. So THANK YOU JOY and THANK YOU to whoever took them.YOU ARE WELCOME
Sorry to hear about your health problems. Agree, probably caused by being in the mines. Do they have warnings on them?
And sorry to hear about crashing your hard drive. I’m a stickler about back-up (I have 200k photos going WAY back). And now, thanks to the Yarnell HIll Fire, my back-up drive is full to the gills and I have to buy a new one.
You wrote:
” IF ANYTHING AS I RENEWED MY STATE LAND PASS THE STATE SHOULD THANK ME FOR THEIR INCREASE SALES IN STATE LAND PASSES. MAYBE THEY CAN TAKE FUNDS FROM THERE TO HELP PROPERLY ASSESS THIS FIRE VERSUS ROLLING THE BLAME DOWN HILL.”
I totally agree.
And this:
?I WILL ALWAYS MAKE SURE ANYONE SAYING STEED SAY THIS OR MARSH DID THIS; SHOW ME. I REALLY FEEL SOMEONE WHO KNEW THEM WELL WILL FINALLY SHARE PUBLICLY ESPECIALLY THE ONES THAT WERE THERE THAT DAY OF THE FIRE. THAT IS THE TRUE BRAVE HEROIC THING TO DO!”
Also agree. What a vise they’ve trapped these people in, including, probably, Brendan. They not only need to talk honestly so the truth can get free, they need to talk for their own mental and emotional health!
I love how the USFS put out that Storm King Anniversary video this year, all about how people on a fatality fire need to be able to talk about it for their own well-being…….while holding the gag on everybody on this fire.
I have no negative thoughts about Brendan. He was a very young inexperienced fire-fighter caught in the middle of a very big tornado.
Someone needs to do a Lessons Learned regarding fatality fire investigations.
I had to scroll to bottom of page
tried 3 times to post with area it belong to.
Reply to Marti Reed:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
REPLY: Without having photos right in front of me I can only state that the person Kathy Hunter Glover who has a massive file of the fire from Friday to Sunday is how I was told and on her laptop in a very unorganized fashion were taken by her camera as well as Connie’s camera. I can tell you and answer Bob Powers again where he posted that at no time did I state Connie went back for meds but I did state IF she did as some others did on July 1st than I can buy that July 2nd time stamp versus June 30th, 2013. YCSO did let select few in for their medications. Also the time back for Peeples Valley was media reported 7-4-13 evening but some in evacuation were told they could not go back until 7-7-13 so that is where that confusion is because we were in the evacuation spot where the ones were told to stay until 7-7-13 but you are right many did return on 7-4-13 but non were allowed on highway 89 past Peeples Valley gas station.
(side note for the photos sent via email: Connie Callen’s photo that Kathy Hunter Glover had and shared were taken at 18409 s john fry in peeples valley. The blue ridge guy and 2 smoke stacks were taking at Chaz place 23074 s lakewood dr and the others were near helms at 17613 w westward. I hope this helps you. Any pics with pine trees were peeples valley Connies place. The one with blue home is lakewood and the other home is near helms on westward)
Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 11:53 AM
I have tried from 9am-11:53pm and I am not getting any posts on there-
my post:
I had to scroll to bottom of page
tried 3 times to post with area it belong to.
Reply to Marti Reed:
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 30, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
REPLY: Without having photos right in front of me I can only state that the person Kathy Hunter Glover who has a massive file of the fire from Friday to Sunday is how I was told and on her laptop in a very unorganized fashion were taken by her camera as well as Connie’s camera. I can tell you and answer Bob Powers again where he posted that at no time did I state Connie went back for meds but I did state IF she did as some others did on July 1st than I can buy that July 2nd time stamp versus June 30th, 2013. YCSO did let select few in for their medications. Also the time back for Peeples Valley was media reported 7-4-13 evening but some in evacuation were told they could not go back until 7-7-13 so that is where that confusion is because we were in the evacuation spot where the ones were told to stay until 7-7-13 but you are right many did return on 7-4-13 but non were allowed on highway 89 past Peeples Valley gas station.
(side note for the photos sent via email: Connie Callen’s photo that Kathy Hunter Glover had and shared were taken at 18409 s john fry in peeples valley. The blue ridge guy and 2 smoke stacks were taking at Chaz place 23074 s lakewood dr and the others were near helms at 17613 w westward. I hope this helps you. Any pics with pine trees were peeples valley Connies place. The one with blue home is lakewood and the other home is near helms on westward)
the photos of the blue home-that is the intersection of W Fountain Hill and S Lakewood Drive. That blue home belonged to Kevin ODonnell Po Box 353 Yarnell Arizona 85362. He has a very interesting story. His home is rebuilt already and is an unusual home hue of like a mustard color with terra cotta trim if that helps distinguish location where the Blue Ridge man was.
Thanks Joy for the info on the location of the June 30 photos.
Regarding the downstream posts regarding both the photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy photo taken on July 2, 2013 and the photo taken that shows the long line of cars heading south on 89:
I wrote this downstream:
“Sorry to not get back sooner. My life, right now, is pretty much consumed by helping my 93-year-old mom, who isn’t doing very well.
Photo 112 was taken on, via its metadata, July 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM. Several other photos are in that series.
As someone who uses digital cameras A LOT, I think the DAY timestamp is probably accurate, although lot of times the HOUR timestamps can be seriously inaccurate.
It was apparently taken by the same camera that took the July 2 photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy..
It’s part of a series of photos showing a long line of cars driving south on 89 on July 4.
I have NO IDEA why all those cars were driving south on 89 on July 4.
It’s definitely NOT June 30, because the sky is clear, as opposed to how the sky would have looked on June 30.
I’m really sorry people are having such troubles posting here. I’ve had, myself, more obstacles, also.
Marti Thanks
Sorry about your mom but understand my wife has been in the same boat with her 98 year old Mom for the past 3 years after she fell. Take care———-
You’re welcome!
Yep, it’s a challenge! Fortunately, I love being at Manzano del Sol, the retirement center where she lives.
PS I looked and looked for an email from you, and couldn’t find one. So I don’t think I have your email address.
Marti check your face book
OK.
Hmmmm. Bob and WTKTT
I just discovered something. I forwarded the email Joy sent me w/the photo links to WTKTT, but the links themselves didn’t make it into the email. I don’t understand that.
So the fastest thing to do is put those photos into my dropbox and send you the link to the dropbox folder.
I haven’t downloaded all the photos, but what I have is enough to see what’s going on. And then I’ll download the rest and put them in that dropbox folder.
Ok. I realized I didn’t forward it correctly.
DOH
I’ve sent both of you Joy’s email with the photo links.
Got them Thanks
I got them all as well. Thank you, Marti.
I think the lingering ‘confusion’ over the Bitteroot’ vehicle photo comes down to this…
>> On November 5, 2014 at 9:50 am, Sonny said…
>>
>> Bob Powers that photo of the Bitterroot Bus was taken on June 30, 2013.
>> We just again verified it with the lady that took the photo. So took it as she
>> was evacuating, and once you were evacuated from the area you could not
>> return due to roadblocks on 89 that kept stringent restrictions;
Apparently… the person who TOOK the photo is convinced it was June 30,2013.
Sonny is absolutely right about ‘not being able to return’.
Once you left Yarnell on June 30, the area was locked up tight and citizens
(supposedly) weren’t allowed back into the area until July 7 ( Peeples Valley )
and July 8 ( Yarnell / Glen Ilah ). Even then… movement was tightly controlled.
So that makes any dates of July 2, 3, or 4 problematic since (supposedly) no one
was allowed to actually BE there taking any photos.
I am with Marti about how the TIMES can be wrong on a digitial camera, but rarely
is the DATE itself wrong. Even less likely if it was a smartphone.
So either someone’s camera was seriously OFF… or someone is not remembering things correctly ( like when a photo was actually taken )… or BOTH.
The “J- Resource Orders’ document itself seems to PROVE that no vehicle that belonged to the ‘Bitterrrot’ Helitack could have been there on June 30.
Even the ‘fulfillment notes’ in that document seem to verify that.
On PDF page 23 of “J- Resource Orders” the ‘fulfillment notes’ for orders A-21 ( the Bitterroot helicopter ) and A-21.1 through A-20.6 ( The Bitterroot Helitack crew ) start to appear.
The fulfillment note for the Bitterrot ‘Chase Truck’ itself says the ‘order’ wasn’t even filled until 3:07 PM on June 30, and it reiterates that 3 Bitterroot Helitack crew will be traveling with that ‘Chase Truck’ from Montana to Yarnell… with a RON ( Rest Overnight ) in either Idaho or Utah on the night of June 30 itself.
“A-21 Chase Truck: Dustin Strayer (COP – 541-279-1650), Joshua Oak, Russell Buzzell Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1507 MST”
START OF ALL FULFILLMENT NOTES FOR BITTERROOT CHOPPER AND HELITACK
——————————————————————
A-21
HELIBASE LOCATION: 34 16.166 X 112 44.388 HAYES RANCH ROAD, STICKLER RANCH FOLLOW PINK FLAGING. HELIBASE IS AT 4430′ ELEVATION CONTACT BOB ORTLUND ON CELL # 602-527-1207
Alyce Harris (AZ-ADC) 06/29/2013 2147 PNT
A-21 Unable to fill due to activity
April Cook (NV-WBC) 06/30/2013 0835 PST
A-21 Per SO no T3’s available.
Shaun Jensen (ID-NIC) 06/30/2013 0852 MST
A-21 Per EB no T3’s available.
Shaun Jensen (ID-NIC) 06/30/2013 0858 MST
A-21 WILL TAKE THE SHIP WITH DELAYED ETA
Alyce Harris (AZ-ADC) 06/30/2013 1044 PNT
A-21
Called ADC this morning around 1015 to find out about the needed date/time; order says today @ 0800 but we would not be able to meet that. If filled, (N6)40MA could be at incident 7/1 1200. Asked for a call back to confirm the incident still needed/wanted the resource, waiting for a response at this time.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1119 MST
A-21 Request A-21 – Helicopter, Type 3 Standard – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407 (N640MA) (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21 Chase Truck: Dustin Strayer (COP – 541-279-1650), Joshua Oak, Russell Buzzell Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1507 MST
A-21.1 Request A-21.1 – HELICOPTER MANAGER, SINGLE RESOURCE (HMGB) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with McKee, John R (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.2 Request A-21.2 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Flemmer, Nick (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.3 Request A-21.3 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Strayer, Dustin (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.4 Request A-21.4 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Buzzell, Russell (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS. The request was filled with override due to the following: The resource’s qualification status is Trainee and was used to fill a request that specified “No Trainee.”
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.5 Request A-21.5 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Oak, Joshua (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
A-21.6 Request A-21.6 – HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM) – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with Shellenbarger, Elizabeth Suza (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MT-BRC ROSS. The request was filled with override due to the following: The resource’s qualification status is Trainee and was used to fill a request that specified “No Trainee.”
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
———————————————
END OF ALL FULFILLMENT NOTES FOR BITTERROOT CHOPPER AND HELITACK
I should have already mentioned this… but the MT-BRC Unit ID code in Resource Orders A-21 and all sub-orders A-21.1 through A-21.6 is definitely the Unit ID code for the ‘Bitterrroot Helitack’.
MT = Montana
BRC = Bitterroot Crew
Also… Helicopter N640MT mentioned in order A-20 is definitely the chopper that is used by Bitterroot Helitack. It is rented from ‘Minuteman Aviation’ back in Missoula, Montana’.
Aircraft registration data for N640MA…
From…
http://flightaware.com/resources/registration/N640MA
————————————————————
Summary: 2002 BELL 407 Rotorcraft (7 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: MINUTEMAN AVIATION INC MISSOULA, MT (Corporation)
Owner Address: 5225 HWY 10 W, AIRPORT BOX 16 MISSOULA, MT, 598080016, US
Airworthiness: Standard/Normal
Serial Number: 53522
Engine Weight Speed Mode S Code
Engine: ROLLS-ROYC 250-C47B Horsepower: 650 (Turbo-shaft)
Weight: Less than 12,500lbs
Speed: Not defined
Model S Code: 52063117 / A8664F
Registration Details
Status: Assigned
Certificate Issue Date: 2013-05-01
Airworthiness Date: 2002-06-12
Last Action Date: 2013-09-18
Expiration: 2016-05-31
Registration History
Date, Owner, Location, Serial Number
20-09-2013, MINUTEMAN AVIATION INC, MISSOULA MT, 53522
02-06-2006, INTERCONTINENTAL JET INC, TULSA OK, 590
—————————————————————
Yikes… TWO bad typos in the same sentence above.
Bitterroot Chopper registration number is N640MA, not N640MT.
( The MA suffix stands for Minuteman Aviation. They OWN the chopper ).
The ‘J- Resource Orders’ document order number is A-21, not A-20.
That sentence above SHOULD have read like this…
“Also… Helicopter N640MA mentioned in order A-21 is definitely the chopper that is used by Bitterroot Helitack. It is rented from ‘Minuteman Aviation’ back in Missoula, Montana’.”
I’m currently thinking that it’s possible the Bitterroot chopper and crew may have “headed out” to Arizona B4 they were “assigned” to the Yarnell HIll Fire.
The crewmember who posted on Facebook sounds more like they were “heading to Arizona” in general, not Yarnell in particular.
Also, that crewmember is not listed on the Resource Order.
Reply to Marti Reed post on November 6, 2014 at 10:35 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I’m currently thinking that it’s possible the Bitterroot chopper
>> and crew may have “headed out” to Arizona B4 they
>> were “assigned” to the Yarnell HIll Fire.
Possibly… but there are still the following ‘fulfillment notes’ in the “J- Resource Orders” document that seem to establish that there was no way Helicopter N640MA could be in Yarnell any earlier than NOON on July 1…
At 11:19 AM on June 30, Kelly McKee was aprised of this and made an entry about needing to confirm the order because that Chopper couldn’t be there until NOON on July 1… and she was waiting to hear if they still wanted it.
33 minutes later, at 11:52 AM, Kelly McKee apparently got the confirmation that they still wanted that Chopper from Montana, even if it couldn’t be there until July 1, and then she ‘fulfilled order A-21’ with N640MA out of Montana.
Fulfillment notes…
——————————————————
A-21
Called ADC this morning around 1015 to find out about the needed date/time; order says today @ 0800 but we would not be able to meet that. If filled, (N6)40MA could be at incident 7/1 1200. Asked for a call back to confirm the incident still needed/wanted the resource, waiting for a response at this time.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1119 MST
A-21
Request A-21 – Helicopter, Type 3 Standard – [AZ-A1S-130688] YARNELL HILL has been filled with HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407 (N640MA) (MT-BRC) by Kelly McKee@MTBRC ROSS.
Kelly McKee (MT-BRC) 06/30/2013 1152 MST
———————————————————–
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> The crewmember who posted on Facebook sounds
>> more like they were “heading to Arizona” in general,
>> not Yarnell in particular.
Maybe whoever that was ‘posting’ really wasn’t sure where they were going.
The ‘orders’ for the SIX Bitterroot Helitack support crew weren’t even ‘cut’ until around NOON on June 30, 2013.
Three of them were then ‘coming’ ( from Montana ) in the Bitterroot Chase vehicle, with a planned RON ( Rest Overnight ) in either Idaho or Utah… and I assume that means the other 3 came down with Chopper N640MA itself.
>> Marti also said
>> Also, that crewmember is not listed on the Resource Order.
Hmm… maybe that ‘crewmember’ ( posting on Facebook? ) was actually the PILOT of N640MA. Funny thing about these ‘Helitack’ resource orders. They tend to list all the SUPPORT CREW that gets ordered… and there is always an order fo the Chopper itself… but the actual PILOT never seems to get his own separate resource order.
Same was true for ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ and the Price Valley Helitack.
There is no separate resource order for the 5KA pilot. Just the chopper.
A couple of things….
The helicopters that fly for the FS are Privet under contract some times a 3 year contract for the Fire season.
Also not listed is the fuel truck that generally convoys with the crew truck.
Just some extra info..
I’ve really wondered about those fuel trucks. I think I haven’t seen any connected to 5KA, but then, coming from “near Santa Fe” it wouldn’t have gotten there until 4:30-ish anyway, along with, I estimate, it’s other vehicles.
Bob–Who “usually” flies with the helicopter? Obviously, the “manager” who, in the case of 5KA, was also the Crew Superintendent.
5KA was capable of carrying the pilot, one other person in front, and six crew members in back.
I’m guessing the helicopter with Bitterroot was also. That’s a rappel crew. That’s pretty much how they do it, from what I’ve seen.
Maybe, on that order, that was the crewmembers listed on the dispatch order, and the facebook guy was part of the rest of the crew–driving. Maybe that’s why he doesn’t “show up” on the order?
I don’t know how many people are on that crew.
The people that go with the Helicopter The Manager and then a selection based on where they are going and what they will do.
It is different biased on mission.
Great, thanks.
That’s what I’ve been thinking.
Hmmm. I thought I responded to this earlier but apparently it didn’t post.
The facebook guy was NOT the pilot.
I’m not gonna post his name because I generally don’t like to do that for innocent bystanders, but if you google “bitterroot helitack” you”ll find it.
WE WERE TOLD BY CURRENT AND RETIRED FIREFIGHTERS AND SMOKEJUMPERS THAT IT IS NOT FOREIGN FOR A WILDFIRE CREW BUGGY OF ANY KIND BE RE-POSITIONED IN A STATE THAT IS SEEING THE MOST FIRE IN FIRE SEASON SO THAT THE CREW CAN JUST FLY OUT SO IT IS POSSIBLE THE CREW BUGGY WAS PRESENT IN ARIZONA BEFORE THE ACTUAL CREW.
While that is true the Dispatch orders say the crew left Montana on 6/30 and would overnight in Idaho or Utah and then arrive on 7/1 at 1900 Yarnell
So they did drive from Montana Based on Dispatch records.
WTKTT
I just emailed you the list of photos that Joy had sent me.
WTKTT~
I just emailed you the list of photos that Joy sent me.
The evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted at 6:30 pm on July 4.
So there’s that.
Ok here goes on Bitterroot Helicopter
ordered Type 3 helicopter Hampton Montana 6/30 at 0944
at 1043 Bitterroot Helicopter A-21 will arrive on 7/1 at 1200
If the helitack drove from Montana at 1030 6/30 It would take till some time in the morning of 7/1 to be at the fire that’s based on what I picked up from the fire order.
The Helicopter would arrive around 1200 Based on 8 hr. flight time per day they would have had little time left to fly on 7/1.
If the fire info is correct the Bitterroot crew was not at the fire until 7/1. in there truck.
So we have a conflict between the fire record and the pictures. So I didn’t clear any thing up.
We have already learned ( many times ) when examining ‘photos’ of the incident that just because a photo is included with a group of other photos does NOT mean, in any way, that it can be assumed ALL of those photos were taken at the same time… or even on the same day.
The ‘Miscellaneous’ folder under the ‘Arizona Forestry’ parent folder in the SAIT ‘Photos and Videos section is a good example. MOST of the photos in that ‘group’ of pictures were taken on June 30, 2013… but a lot of them were NOT ( even though some of them even LOOK like they were ).
You just have to take each picture one at a time and try and learn as much as you can about it, either from the content of THAT photo itself ( and no other photo in that ‘group’ unless it is obviously of the exact same scene ), or from the EXIF data emebedded in the photo being examined.
Even then ( with EXIF data ) we have also learned very well that that ‘data’ sometimes cannot be trusted.
There are actually still a few photos in that ‘Miscellaneous’ folder in the SAIT release that were obviously taken with a camera that had its DATE and TIME all messed up… so its basically impossible to trust the EXIF data contained in the photo.
It can happen.
Side thing I’ve been thinking about telling you, WTKTT.
Just in case you might be continuing this kind of stuff, which you are awesome at.
I highly recommend getting/using Lightroom as a visual media data-base software.
It doesn’t show as much meta-data as what you are seeing, but you can get the same software you are using as a plug-in for it (something I still haven’t had time to do).
It can do A LOT of photo improvement and SOME video improvement.
I’ve used it INTENSIVELY for KEYWORDING for comparing things. I have all the stuff from this fire keyworded up the wazoo and I can click on something like “unidentified red engines” and see all of just that.
You can make “virtual copies” of anything and play around with the timestamps and see what that does. That’s how I’ve done all of my “fixing the timestamps” of things.
And you can make slideshows that include videos quite easily. Probably not the careful fade-into-and-out-of videos that you have been doing recently. I have no clue what you are using to do that and I’m curious.
And you can make “collections” of things and move them around in relationship to each other.
I’ve used Lightroom as a photographer for five years. I have almost 200k photo and video files that I reference and work with all the time, going way back to 1999 when I first started working with digital photography and video.
It’s beyond well-worth the cost of purchasing it.
There is no doubt the Bitterroot crew was there in Yarnell.
The following online testimony from a ‘fire chaser’ named Scott Olsen confirms that, but only for the time period of the week following the tragedy.
Scott Olsen was there in Yarnell on the morning of July 7, 2013, and was standing on the side of the road where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89.
He was waiting for the procession of hearses carrying the 19 GM Hotshots to pass by as it wound its way from the ME’s office, through Yarnell, and then on to Prescott.
As he was standing there waiting… a Hotshot crew came up Hays Ranch Road to line Highway 89 and he ended up standing there with them.
It was the Bitterroot crew. From Montana.
Scott Olsen’s public account of that moment is here…
http://wscottolsen.com/2014/04/chasing-fire/
From his written account…
————————————————————–
A Hotshot team walks up Hays Ranch Road to the intersection with Route 89. Dressed in the uniform of a wildland firefighter, fire-resistant yellow shirt and green pants, tall boots with lug soles, backpacks and hard hats, they carry pulaskis and the dirt of these hills. One of them is an older man. One of them is a very young woman.
The sound of a helicopter turns everyone’s eyes up the road. The Honor Escort is approaching. Two helicopters and one airplane. Then the motorcycle police. Riding two abreast, gleaming white motorcycles come down the road. Nineteen, I think. Maybe twenty. Then a fire command truck. Then the Granite Mountain Hotshot crew carrier. Then nineteen white hearses, single file, each with American flags, each with a badge on the door for Prescott Fire, each with the name of the Hotshot it carried on a sign in the window, one after the other, slowly.
I do not know any of the men who died. But when the procession passes I fall in with the other Hotshots, who are from the Bitterroot in Montana. I do not know any of them either, but it turns out we have friends in common. Do you know, I ask? Yes, they say.
The group of motorcycle riders exits and the Bitterroot crew pauses as they go by, one group offering respect back to those who came to give respect.
————————————————————–
The ONLY thing we don’t know for sure and certain is exactly WHEN the Bitterroot crew actually arrived in Yarnell.
We are talking about the Bitterroot Helitack.
Bitterroot Hot Shots are not the same.
Just clarifying.
I still have not seen Pictures so if it is a Bus it may be the Hot Shots not the helitack.
Sonny said Bus
Joy said Truck Helitack crew buggy
I guess we need to see the Picture Marti. I am Lost which isn’t really important.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 5, 2014 at 10:02 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> We are talking about the Bitterroot Helitack.
>> Bitterroot Hot Shots are not the same. Just clarifying.
Yes. Sorry. I should have made that clear myself.
Mr. Scott Olsen called them ‘Hotshots’ but that was, apparently, the actual Bitterroot HELITACK crew that he was standing with.
According to the publicly released “J- Resource Orders’ document, order number A-21 was for the helicopter itself out of ‘Minuteman Aviation’ in Missoula, Montana… and resource order numbers A-20.1 through A-20.6 were for the 6 HELITACK crew assigned to that chopper.
A-21 – Helicopter order
Request Number: A-21
Ordered Date/Time: 06/29/13 2117 PNT
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 623-445-0274
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: Helicopter, Type 3, Standard
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: MT-BRC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: MT-BRF
Resource Assigned: HELICOPTER – T3S – N640MA – B407
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1530 MST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1130 PNT
Travel Mode: ( No entry )
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: WITH HELITAC MODULE.
Additional resource orders for the accompanying ‘HELITAC MODULE’…
A-21.1 – HMGB – McKee, John R. ( Helicopter Manager )
A-21.2 – HECM – Flemmer, Nick
A-21.3 – HECM – Strayer, Dustin
A-21.4 – HECM (T-A) – Buzzell, Russell
A-21.5 – HECM – Oak, Joshua
A-21.6 – HECM (T-A) – Shellenbarger, Elizabeth Suza
>> Bob Powers also said…
>> I still have not seen Pictures so if it is a Bus it may be the
>> Hot Shots not the helitack.
The “J- Resource Orders” document itself indicates that THREE of the above SIX ordered HELITACK were driving an ‘AOV’ ( Agency Owned Vehicle ) down to the fire and their resource fullfillment notes then mention they were going to ROV ( Rest Overnight ) in either Pocatello, ID or Ogden, UT as they drove down to Yarnell.
That ‘Travel Note’ is on resource orders for Dustin Strayer, Russell Buzzell, and Johsua Oak.
It looks like this…
“Travel Mode: AOV/RON Pocatello, ID OR Ogden, UT 6/30”
Here is Joshua Oak’s complete resource order.
It has the same ‘Travel mode’ entry as Strayer and Buzzell.
NOTE that these ‘Helitack’ support people weren’t even actually ordered until about NOON on June 30, 2013… and the travel mode field has the RON for the night of June 30 and the ‘Estimated time of Arrival’ for that vehicle is July 1, and not June 30.
Request Number: A-21.5
Ordered Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
From: AZ-ADC (Dispatch) 623-445-0274
To: AZ-ADC
Qty: 1
Resource Requested: HELICOPTER CREWMEMBER (HECM)
Needed Date/Time: 06/30/13 0800 PNT
Deliver To: YARNELL HILL
From Unit: MT-BRC
To Unit: AZ-ADC
Assigned Date/Time: 06/30/13 1152 MST
Resource Assigned Unit ID: MT-BRF
Resource Assigned: Oak, Joshua (MT-BRC)
M/D Ind: M
Estimated Time of Departure: 06/30/13 1500 MST
Estimated Time of Arrival: 07/01/13 1900 PNT
Travel Mode: AOV/RON Pocatello, ID OR Ogden, UT 6/30
Financial Code: AZ-A1S-130688
Special Needs: ( No Entry )
Reporting Instructions: ( No Entry )
Thanks I was reading the fire logs that did not have that much detail.
Makes it simple that no Montana helitack truck was there on June 30 2013.
as they were ordered that day and traveled to the fire not arriving until late July 1 which would make the picture stamped July 2 correct. as Marti stated above.
So Bob it is okay that Marty came up with July 4than said July 3rd to now July 2 but no way to June 30 due to clear skies yet she never spoke to homeowner to this date that I heard of asking when she evacuated because Peeples Valley evacuated way earlier than Glen Ilah and Yarnell area and early on on 6-30-13 andthere was indeed clear skies early. Sunday from the highway pack of car pile up.
to say you stick with July 4 than 3 than 2nd bit no to 6-30..dumb cell. typos . npt correct ing typing things the cell did wrong but I will only believe the July 2 part if homeowner went back for meds and she did not confirm that bit select few ycso let back in for mefs
The person who took these photos took a series of photos on June 3, at around noon and around 3 PM, That’s the first series. Lots of smoke and stuff, looks exactly like June 30 looked.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 2, around 11AM, starting from the Incident Command Post parking lot and traveling down the road showing all the various vehicles and the tents. That’s the series that includes Bitterroot Helitack Buggy, Minnesota Helitack Utility Truck, and Apple Valley Helitack (CA) Utility Truck.
Then the person took a series of photos on July 4, around 6:30 pm, of the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning right onto Hays Ranch Road.
That’s when the evacuation of Peeple’s Valley was lifted. That would explain the long line of cars headed south on 89 and turning on to Hays Ranch Road.
The shadows in these photos match the timestamps.
Typo.
First series June 30, not June 3.
So I believe I understand Joy saying that the person who took the Pictures went back on July 2nd to get meds and took more pictures then. which fits the time frames.
That’s what I’m thinking also.
THAT IS INCORRECT AND MISREAD…I STATED “IF” THAT LADY CONNIE WENT IN FOR MEDS THAN I WOULD BELIEVE THE JULY 2ND STATEMENT BUT IT IS NOT YET CONFIRMED BUT SOME DID GO IN ON JULY 1 2013 VIA YCSO PERMISSION TO GET MEDICATIONS.
Yes it’s the Bitterroot Helitack Crew Buggy.
I think.
It actually looks like some kind of combo of a utility truck and a crew buggy.
That’s a great story. Thanks for posting it.
Something I just noticed about ‘Bitterroot’.
The IHC of the Bitterroot crew is actually listed as an SME ( Subject Matter Expert ) that was used by the SAIT as they were writing their SAIR report.
Here is page 115 of the SAIR.
Look at the very LAST entry under this ‘Subject Matter Expert’ list.
It is Mr. John Wood, Superintendent of the Bitterroot IHC.
——————————————————————–
SAIR Appendix I: Subject Matter Experts
Brian Cardoza, Superintendent, Idaho City IHC, Boise National Forest
Paul Cerda, Superintendent, Alpine IHC, Rocky Mountain National Park
Heath Cota, District Fire Management Officer, Sawtooth National Forest
Sarah Doehring, Smokejumper Program Manager, Grangeville Smokejumpers, Nez Perce National Forest; IC Type 3
Frank Esposito, Superintendent, Big Bear IHC, San Bernardino National Forest
Rich Harvey, Deputy State Forester, Nevada Division of Forestry; IC Type 1, Great Basin IMT 2
John Kennedy, Captain, City of Reno Fire Department; Operations Branch Director, Great Basin IMT 1
Erik Litzenberg, Fire Chief, Santa Fe Fire Department
Elizabeth Lund, Deputy Director, USFS R4 Fire & Aviation Management; IC Type 1, Great Basin IMT 1
Kelly Martin, Chief of Fire & Aviation Management, Yosemite National Park; Operations Branch Director, California Interagency Incident Management Team 5
Leif Mathiesen, Superintendent, Kern Valley IHC, BLM Central California District
Ted Mead, Chief of Fire and Aviation, Montana Dept. of Natural Resources & Conservation
Les Rogers, Chief of Law Enforcement, State of Texas; IC Type 2
Brit Rosso, Center Manager, Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center
Aaron Schuh, Superintendent, Rogue River IHC, Rogue River- Siskiyou National Forest
Bobbie Scopa, Assistant Director of Fire Operations, USFS R6 Fire & Aviation Management
Terry Sonner, Engine Module Leader, BLM Boise District
Eddie Tudor, Resource Management Bureau Chief, New Mexico State Forestry Division; ICT3
John Wood, Superintendent, Bitterroot IHC, Bitterroot National Forest
——————————————————————————
So it can be assumed that regardless of when the Bitterroot ICH crew actually arrived in Yarnell… whatever they saw, or heard, or (perhaps) even photographed or videoed would have been available to the SAIT.
There was no need to ‘interview’ the Bitterroot ICH.
He was ON the SAIT investigation team itself.
Typos above… sorry.
Anywhere it says ICH it should have been IHC.
“Interagency Hotshot Crew”
Correction for above…
The actual “J- Resource Orders’ document appears to only have entries for the Bitterroot Helicopter ( Registration number N640MA ) and only SIX HELITACK crew along with it.
These are probably NOT the actual ‘Bitterroot IHC’ crew.
Regardless… Mr. John Wood, the Superintendent of the Bitterroot HOTSHOT crew was, ended up a ‘Subject Matter Expert’ on the SAIT team.
Yes. Different crews. It can get confusing.
I don’t understand what you mean by a conflict between the photo and the record.
The photo of their truck was taken July 2.
The photo the crewmember took was taken July 3.
Where’s the conflict?
Joys statement that the picture was taken the 30 the crew was not there till the 1st late. if that’s what you are asking. also 2 seperiate photos take by 2 different people.
From what I understand.
ONE SET OF PHOTOS ARE FROM CONNIE CALLEN OF PEEPLES VALLEY AND WERE GIVEN TO KATHY HUNTER GLOVER AND WERE ON HER LAPTOP IS HOW I GOT CONNIE’S PHOTOS FOR THE INVESTIGATORS AND PEOPLE TRYING TO REACH CLARITY TO REVIEW THEM.
why am I seeign others posts but not mine???
Joy A. Collura says
November 5, 2014 at 10:21 am
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
I have been here since 9:05am trying to POST and it is 10:20am…what the hel l…
darn pc
this is like a frea king game trying to post on here anymore…it says I posted the message yet it is not on the site at 515 comments so no it did not post—
Bob Powers wrote and if you think this folks over here would verbally LIE and THEY were there…go look at number 112 photo where it has the evacuation car line up—enough freaking said…
duplicate message my a ss…
reply to answer YOU Sonny. Figured I better clarify—
No, you have to realize people on here like to post theories and stories. They learned early on in life to buying into bullshit is the way to go.
The homeowner is currently a patron at the Yarnell Library and confirms it was evacuation day.
Even IF the people did not open their mouths of their accounts, look at photo 112. Which is two ahead of the Bitter Root one.
Aw.
Behold.
Proof that it was evacuation day with a pile up of cars trying to get the hel l out…Sonny is correct and you can call Congress librarian Maryanne Paulic as she stayed behind as well as the prior long time business owners of the Ranch House Restaurant Steve and Shelley Berguson and the new firefighter that came to us Errol Eastwood and so many more…during evacuation you were not allowed to leave the property so if Marty is right on her dates than how is it they were on Hayes/Highway 89? especially with an evacuation car line up?
Now. I am in one liv id agi tated state since the Chief Ben Palm thing that many say let it go—
Why the twister hel l do I always have to let things freaking go-
I am the one that is having people come to me. Not just one but many. From current and prior firefighters. I am just a hiker/housewife.
I finally reach Chief Palm and he denies the comments. Than how come current and prior people seem to want me to “believe” in their statements of WARNINGS and CAUTIONS!
Sh it, if it is true that I come in to money soon—I already told my husband that my entire energy is piecing the truth to the extent I would hire the BEST P.I. to investigate local as well as the whole enchilada of this money market bullsh it of the firefighting community. Bob Powers says something straight up that I liked from day one and that is SAFETY MATTERS!
Indeed it does.
I have tried too many times to post this and the library updated and erased what I wrote as it automatically shut pc off but not a good time for me to write replies because I am beyond pis sed that I can walk into a firefighter outfit and see them brainwashed and glued to the boob tube. How about getting off your as s and help some locals in the community may they took a loss or not…get out and do the defensible space and so many good things you all could be doing versus some “G-D” television. I reckon you probably watching the tv series Chicago Fire, huh.
Make a difference you firefighters and start freaking sharing that was on that fire versus coming to me with oral versus document shit.
I got no time for oral bullshit. You see me. You want to talk. Great. Bring it on. Give me something tangible that we can look at…yeah initially I am okay with a cell to cell photo but I need the raw shit.
Like I said I got to get off this arena of horseshit. Who would even assume it was after June 30th that photo just looking at it. I mean I felt I just got a piece of the action of HOW the state is gonna have their hayday—
TRUTH is all that matters here. DO NOT air assumptions. How did you calculate such date?
I am at a state of mind that is not looking too positive…I read my bible and go into prayer and I feel like I am just at a dead end block…a serious barrier.
JOY—- please settle down I was going on what Marti said on the dates and the pictures.
I have seen none of them so only going on what Marti and you and Sonny said.
Marti is very good with camera info and Pictures so I’ll refer to her explanation as to the dates.
Sorry if you misunderstood what I said was trying to decipher the information not saying any one lied I never said that just that what I was being told did not make sense.
and the fire orders for helicopters and crews did not show the crews we are talking about on the 30th– Again unless I missed something.
Again the bitterroot crew did not seem to be involved with the GM crew or the Burn Over that day. There were 2 Helicopters on the fire on the 30th neither of which were attached to Bitterroot helitack. The info they showed started on the 1st thru the 4th so there first day on the fire may have been the first even though they arrived the 30th.
That seems to be what Marti was saying after I reread the post and not that the pictures were taken on the 1st or 2nd or 3rd. Dose that make sense.
Not sure of what she was referring to on the picture taken on the 3rd unless it was the helitack picture that was actually referenced with the other pictures they also posted..
I am sure she will go back and clarify.
JOY—- please settle down
SETTLED DOWN.
Sorry to not get back sooner. My life, right now, is pretty much consumed by helping my 93-year-old mom, who isn’t doing very well.
Photo 112 was taken on, via its metadata, July 4, 2013 at 6:35 PM. Several other photos are in that series.
As someone who uses digital cameras A LOT, I think the DAY timestamp is probably accurate, although lot of times the HOUR timestamps can be seriously inaccurate.
It was apparently taken by the same camera that took the July 2 photo of the Bitterroot Crew Buggy..
It’s part of a series of photos showing a long line of cars driving south on 89 on July 4.
I have NO IDEA why all those cars were driving south on 89 on July 4.
It’s definitely NOT June 30, because the sky is clear, as opposed to how the sky would have looked on June 30.
Regarding the photo of the Montana Helitack Crew Vehicle.
After Joy said the photo was photo 100, I discovered that was the ONE photo of a series, taken on July 3, that I hadn’t downloaded. The series includes images of the Incident Command Post at Model Creek School, a variety of vehicles parked near it, and tents set up in an open area. The photo shows a Bitterroot Helitack Crew Buggy. It also shows an “Apple Valley Flight Crew” truck. Apple Valley Flight Crew is from California.
By July 3, there were a LOT of crews from all over the country on the fire.
I haven’t looked back at the dispatch orders for this crew yet. However, I found a Facebook Page of one of the crew members. On June 30 he wrote, “Takin the helicopter down to Arizona to fight fire for a few weeks.”
His next post was a Granite Mountain “Last Alarm” “Heroes Remembered” image on July 1. Then, on July 3, he posted a photo of one of the Granite Mountain Buggies and wrote “Rest in Peace Brothers.”
Then, on July 10, he posted a photo of another fire, writing, “Made it to the Shipman fire. Kearny, AZ.”
Do you still want me to send you the photo, Bob Powers? Or should I just forward the list of photos and you can download what you want?
Just discovered I made a boo-boo.
These photos were taken on July 2, not July 3.
So I understand the Bitterroot crew was there after the Burn over on July 1???
and not on June 30.
No don’t need photo rely on your judgment. Also understand the Head came Video is being released to day or this week do not know if thru the Media or the State, you might keep your ears and eyes open for it..
Yes. You understand. I still haven’t had time to look at the dispatch logs.
I’m doing 10-days with my mom who fell on Saturday. Fortunately she didn’t break anything. She’s really weak and I’m having to “push” her (including through her fear) carefully.
Fight fire aggressively/assertively/effectively while providing for safety first (and all that goes into that) has, surprisingly, become my key mantra in doing that.
Typo. I’m doing 10-hour days…..
And, between the impending release of the head-cam video (with all ITS implications) and the impending release of the news that the Ferguson, Missouri, police officer, who clearly fatally shot an unarmed and surrendering 18-year-old Black teen-ager, won’t be indicted (with all ITS implications–I’ve been following this closely), and the very recent Department of Justice intervention in the Albuquerque (where I live) Police Department, and my recent reading about how the USFS contracted with a totally dubious company to head its Arizona Four Forests Mitigation Project, I’m feeling really seriously dubious right now about a number of Federal and State agencies that we rely on to work on behalf of their employers (us citizens) to even remotely do their jobs.
Reply to Bob Powers post on November 4, 2014 at 11:18 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> Also understand the Head came Video is being released today
>> or this week do not know if thru the Media or the State
Didn’t see anything today… but if it is ‘imminent’ then it appears it really is, somehow, going to coincide with the scheduled review of ADOSH’s findings as requested by Arizona Forestry.
ADOSH published their ‘agenda’ for their scheduled Nov 6 meeting just yesterday afternoon.
That PUBLISHED agenda for this Thursday’s ADOSH meeting is here…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Director/docs/Agendas_Archive/agenda_141106.pdf
I don’t see anything that specifically mentions the ADOSH review on this particular agenda but that doesn’t mean it won’t be brought up.
They will still PROBABLY elect to go into ‘Executive Session’ for this discussion of the Yarnell Hill Findings… which means whatever is presented or discussed won’t end up in the required PUBLIC ‘minutes’ of the meeting.
Just for reference… ALL upcoming agendas for ADOSH are required ( by law ) to be publicly published on the following page BEFORE the meetings actually take place…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_agendas_page.aspx
…and once the ‘minutes’ of any ADOSH meeting are ‘approved’ at the start of the meeting that follows… they are also required ( by law ) to be publicly published here…
http://www.ica.state.az.us/Commissioners/COMM_minutes_page.aspx
If they decided to go into Executive Session at ANY of these meetings… then that is also required to be documented in the minutes even if the CONTENT of that particular ‘Executive Session’ is not.
Looks like it could be buried in Item # 5 but nothing actually stated. My understanding was the 43 Min Head Cam had been authorized for release by ADOSH right away.
Also WTKTT you may have some work to do as I have herd the Head Cam Audio has some areas that are very hard to hear or scratchy. As with most radio transmissions, hopefully the interpolation won’t get to confrontational as to what was said.
Assume it will be released to the media but no info on that.
Sounds like you may be right on the 6th.
There will ALWAYS be some ‘controversy’ surrounding ANY background radio transmissions accidentally captured in a video’s audio track.
There are still some people who doubt that it was actually Eric Marsh telling SOMEONE ( at exactly 4:27 PM ) that Granite Mountain was NOT ‘in the safe black’ and that they were “Coming from the heel of the fire”, even though his voice and what he is saying has been VERIFIED by people who knew him.
The only mystery is WHO Marsh was making that ‘report’ to at 4:27 PM, when there was still plenty of time to avoid the tragedy… and WHY this clear radio transmission was never mentioned by the SAIT.
Maybe the Helmet Cam will tell us WHO Marsh was making that report to ( e.g. call signs ) even if that part of it is a ‘little scratchy’.
Bob Powers that photo of the Bitterroot Bus was taken on June 30, 2013. We just again verified it with the lady that took the photo. So took it as she was evacuating, and once you were evacuated from the area you could not return due to roadblocks on 89 that kept stringent restrictions; If you passed the road block or were caught anywhere in the Yarnaell-Peeples Valley area you would be arrested. Peeples Valley residents including the lady that took the photo were not allowed back into their residence until July 7 for Peeples Valley and July 8 for Yarnell. Joy and I stayed in the gymnasium of the Yavapai College in Prescott. We were able to leave the 7th of July and stayed overnight on a pic nic table in Mountainaire so we could enter Yarnell early on the 8th. We were the first ones in–and each person had to go through an interrogation and proof of residency. We were issued a green sheet to put in our window that listed family members and t he exact location we could drive to. We were told we could and would be arrested if found outside that particular location unless we were visiting a neighbor and he or she verified that fact. I almost got arrested and was detained because a reporter tied a camera to my roof top and asked me to drive down mainstreet and back to show the condition of 89. The cop said no camera’s allowed but I argued the first amendment. The reporter took it off saying he did not want me to be locked up. Then they accused me of working for and being paid by the press. I still see that the system is screwed up and wondered why they were so adamant that the press could not even have a view of mainstreet. It has become a police state when you can lock out the press in a situation like that. The world needed to know what was going on and what had happened–when you control the press in that manner you are hiding the truth or allowing possibilities of a cover up.
It is just like this Bitterroot thing.that even Ted did not know about until the photographic proof they were there on the 30th of June. They would have seen and heard and maybe even recorded important information, yet they are not even mentioned in the Sair report.
I had previously believed that the Yarnell fire department was told to stand down. Now from a very reliable source we are told by the man who was there at the Yarnell station that they were not told to stand down on Friday but that there was an argument and instead they were allowed to go but the winner of the argument decided it best to let the fire burn. We were also informed that the Yarnell fire department went to Peeples Valley since they could draw more pay that way,. while the Peeples Valley department went to Yarnell for the same reason. If that is true and they are fleecing the taxpayer by allowing fires to enlarge and fire departments to exchange areas so they can get more money then we need an investigation and a house cleaning.
I do hope John Daugherty gets hold of Joy for names and does his own investigation into this matter. After all. allowing this fire to go wild has taken 19 lives–now we need the Yahoos to own up to what is really going on in this district.
Thanks Sonny
That ties it down a lot better hopefully we can find the Fire order date and time they were ordered and arrived at the fire. the picture says they were there on June 30 so that should be cleared up. A lot of resources were arriving all day the 30th was the helicopter with them or did it arrive latter?
Have to dig for number etc. to place it on the Fire.
Thanks Sonny
Got some confusion on the dates. We have had that before with camera settings will have to dig into it a little more.
Reply to Sonny’s post November 5, 2014 at 9:50 am
>> Sonny said…
>>
>> It is just like this Bitterroot thing.that even Ted did not know
>> about until the photographic proof they were there on the
>> 30th of June. They would have seen and heard and maybe
>> even recorded important information.
Yes. You are right, Sonny.
THAT is why it is remains important to know the full extent of WHO was really THERE that day and *might* have either seen, heard ( or even RECORDED ) some things.
Any ‘fire unit’ that was there in any kind of ‘official’ capacity would have had all the same radio frequencies that everyone else had. That is what the whole ‘cloning’ thing is about. The moment you show up to work on a fire and get this ‘clone’ then you have all the right frequencies on your own radio(s)… including the correct Air-To-Ground frequency being used that day for that fire.
As we have seen with the Granite Mountain crew itself… and all the other crews that were there… this ‘next generation’ of firefighters all carry these iPhones and Androids and are constantly ‘Facebooking’ and ‘Twiterring’ and basically ‘video documenting their lives’.
So the odds are high that ANY crew that was there would have ended up with their own sets of photos, videos, and (possibly) background radio captures.
That’s why the Price Valley Helitack presence is still being discussed.
We now know for SURE that they were THERE.
The Resource Orders say there were actually ELEVEN of these guys.
As far as we know… NONE of these ELEVEN men have ever been interviewed or even asked if they have photos / videos or recordings of radio traffic.
It’s still important to know, even now, WHO was actually THERE that day and might have been shooting a video at any moment when their own BK radios were working in the background and broadcasting radio traffic.
WTKTT
Keep in mind if crews and overhead were arriving in the afternoon of the 30th they were not considered on duty for the fire at that point but Night shift or next day shift as a Helicopter and Crew would be a day shift.
It looks like the Bitterroot crew was there in the Late Afternoon of the 30th but at that point not assigned to a shift on the fire and there for not considered a information witness to the Fatalities as they were not on fire line assignment at that time.
I think that would be why some people that were there may not have been interviewed by the SAIR. Although maybe some may have had pictures or information that pertained to the investigation.
Do we even have any fire ordering info other than those that were assigned to day shift the 30th?
The resource orders would tie down order and arrival time if they are posted past the afternoon of the 30th.
I do not remember seeing any orders past the afternoon of the 30th.
or additional helicopters on the fire other than the 2 we talked about.
That were working the fire that day.
In the publicly released “J- Resource Orders” document, the order number for the Bitterroot Helicopter ( Registration number N640MA ) is order number A-21.
The SIX Helitack that were ordered WITH it are resource order numbers A-21.1 through A-21.6.
None of the CREW orders were even placed until about NOON on June 30, 2013… and the ‘estimated arrival’ of the ‘crew’ ( and the vehicle they were traveling in ) is July 1, 2013.
There is even and ‘AOV and a RON ( Rest Overnight ) note on the orders for the crew which says they were going to spend the night in either Idaho or Utah the night of June 30, and not arrive until sometime July 1.
See more info about this above in another reply.
Reply to Reed
Are you disparaging the truth?
The homeowners that took photo actually are right here in the Yarnell library.
Those photos were from a Peeples Valley homeowner who evacuated on 6-30-13.
No homeowners could of taken that photo on July 3rd or 4th. All homeowners had to remain at their property.
No one could enter because of police lockdown.
I believe the pictures were dated on those dates maybe camera setting was off?
All the tents indicate a full camp that was not there on the 30th so maybe a question on the dates?
**
** ABC15 HELICOPTER VIDEO CLIP 5 ( OF 31 CLIPS )
Here is the next video ‘crossfade’ of the ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air 15’ footage that was taken over the Yarnell Hill Fire from 3:59 PM to 4:39 PM on June 30, 2013.
This FIFTH clip ( out of 31 clips ) in their original ‘raw footage’ loop that was uploaded to their ABC15 public YouTube account the very night of the tragedy itself provides no great revelation(s), but it is a very important ‘anchor clip’ from all that raw footage with regards to putting actual TIMESTAMPS on the rest of the ‘Air15’ video clips.
This is about the only clip in the entire ‘Air15’ helicopter footage with an absolutely identifiable TIMESTAMP because of what is being filmed.
This Clip 05 in the ABC15 raw footage loop is simply another video of the same 14 second long 1615 ( 4:15 ) VLAT 911 drop that was also captured in Eric Panebaker’s Air Study video with the filename 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.
That VLAT 911 drop lasted for exactly 14 seconds and it happened at these exact ‘time offsets’ in the Eric Panebaker video…
+2:22 – ( 1615.11 / 4:15.11 PM ) – VLAT 911 STARTS DROPPING RETARDANT
+2:36 – ( 1615.25 / 4:15.25 PM ) – VLAT 911 STOPS DROPPING RETARDANT
Retardant Drop Duration = 14 seconds.
The new ‘crossfade’ video for this Air15 Helicopter Clip 05 is HERE…
http://youtu.be/QsX0dxkuK14
** ADDITIONAL NOTES FOR AIR15 CLIP 05…
The road that is seen running horizontally from the upper left down to the lower right is actually “Miner’s Camp Road” in Peeples Valley.
The ‘buildings’ seen in the upper left corner at the start of the video are actually within Yavapai County Parcel number 202-03-012M.
The PUBLIC Yavapai County Tax Assessor information for parcel 202-03-012M is as follows…
Owner: HARE JEFFREY W
Owner’s Mailing Address
18925 S MINERS CAMP RD, PEEPLES VALLEY, AZ 86332
The same owner ( Jeffrey W. Hare ) is also the owner of public record for the large land parcel that is WEST of the parcel that contains the buildings ( Parcel number 202-03-012N ).
This “Miner’s Camp Road” location is actually where Field OPS1 Todd Abel was ‘working’ and physically located when the deployment MAYDAY traffic first hit the radio circa 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).
OPS1 Todd Abel actually departed from the ground location shown in this video when he decided to head down to the Ranch House Restaurant in Yarnell following the deployment radio traffic.
Todd Abel’s direct conversations with John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ about the deployment radio traffic ( captured in the Helmet-Cam video ) and his eventual DIRECT ORDER to John Burfiend telling him to stop ignoring the men who were desperately trying to get him on the radio came while he was there ( at this location ) on Miner’s Camp Road.
The ‘spot fires’ seen in the video near the buildings in the ‘Air15’ clip are,apparently, some of the ‘defensive burnouts’ that were known to have been conducted later in the day on Sunday in/around that residence on Miner’s Camp Road.
These ‘buildings’ seen in the upper left corner when this video clip begins are actually only 1,436 feet ( 478 yards ) due NORTH of the Tennis Court at the Double Bar A Ranch.
The 4:15 PM VLAT 911 retardant drop seen in this video clop is taking place from WEST to EAST and BETWEEN the “Miner’s Camp Road” location and the “Double Bar A Ranch” location just SOUTH of there.
NOTE: The remnants of this ‘retardant drop’ are still slightly visible even today in the latest January 4, 2014 Google Maps post-fire ground images of this “Miner’s Camp Road” location and these were used to draw the ‘approximate retardant drop path’ seen in this ‘crossfade’.
Once this new ‘crossfade’ video ‘pans back’ into the equivalent Google Earth imaging… the approximate location for this 14 second long retardant drop is marked on the ground itself.
SUMMARY
If we can still assume ( and I think we can ) that all of the 31 video clips in the ABC15 Helicopter ‘raw footage’ video have remained in sequential order as to when they were actually taken by ‘Air15’… then the FOUR clips that precede this one were definitely taken between 3:59 PM ( when ‘Air15’ first received clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33 )… and we can also assume that all the clips that follow this 4:15 PM Clip 05 then fall into the more narrow 23 minute timerange of 4:16 PM and 4:39 PM. 4:39 PM is when ‘Air15’ notified Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ that their ‘work was done’ and they were now ‘leaving the area’.
ABC15 Helicopter ‘Air15’ actually informed Thomas French they were now ‘leaving the area’ DURING the MAYDAY radio calls themselves, at 4:39 PM.
More to come…
Thanks for doing this, WTKTT!
I’ve always wondered exactly where all those drops we have watched over and over again on the various Air Study videos were actually located.
Yes… the heavy ZOOM that was in effect for those Panebaker videos was ( as I’m sure you know ) really ‘distorting’ the distances and the perspective from Eric Panebaker’s location all the way back there by those crop circles where he was actually set up.
There are moments in the Panebaker videos when it looks like those ‘SPLIT VLAT drops’ are actually almost falling on the vehicles that can also be seen there working up on that hill on Model Creek Road.
That appears to just be an ‘illusion’ because of the focal distortion.
The VLAT SPLIT drops were ( apparently ) happening slightly farther WEST than that and over in that area between the Double-Bar-A-Ranch and that group of buildings on Miner’s Camp Road.
Exactly. Zoom lenses do that. We use them for exactly that purpose. To compress distances behind subjects and, thus, simplify the background.
For a long time I thought the vlat-split was coming off practically right over Hays Ranch Road. I did start realizing that wasn’t the case and that it fit the interviews, and what I was learning about the fire-fighting that was going on over there. that those drops were happening in the Model Creek area. but I didn’t know exactly where and I really wanted to know.
Especially after I saw the Daily Mail article with the aerials. THOSE retardant drops really DID work.
Also… if you look closely at the ABC15 clip 05 just posted above… there appears to be a small line of retardant there on the ground just next to those ‘buildings’ seen at the start of the video clip in the upper left corner of the video frame.
It appears to have been a SEAT drop right near those buildings that was meant to be direct support for the defensive burnouts that were already happening around those structures prior to the 4:15 PM VLAT 911 drop.
That SEAT drop near those buildings on Miner’s Camp Road was probably also captured in one of the Panebaker videos… but right now I can’t tell you exactly which one.
Oh and rumor has it the main mind set for the retired chief Dan in Prescott is to unionize the fire department. Again, I hope the current mayor does not step down and tries for another round because WHY is it we SEE 50-50; some google-eyed over seeing Dan as mayor and the rest say FIRE THE WHOLE CURRENT SYSTEM and start fresh and start over. When I hear that I just think it does not just happen in the firefighting community that is our current society and its sad…I either have worked or been a simple ol’ hiker/housewife and never saw how the system works as I have on the trails with Sonny. So much silliness is going on. I am a law abiding citizen so I thought…I reckon I am not when the YFD Chief is eager for my arrest. Now, Marti Reed. Number 100 you got the photos Tue, Oct 28, 2014 at 12:05 PM and again tonight Sun, Nov 2, 2014 at 6:50 PM and it does show a Montana Helitack ( Bitterroot forest helitack crew members were seen by locals too) so you can send to Bob Powers. Let me do some other stuff and get back here because I have important home stuff to do now that I am here short time and so if I got time later I will pop back on and keep telling you all the news. I cannot email any of you individual with updates so hope you look here still. Alot of the folks at the meeting yesterday HOPES John Dougherty does an investigation and they want to speak to him but I will pot it here bu when I got more time will email you John. I do not know any more information on the head cam or Brendan yet to me I am all for a time stamp video account of Brendan’s dating to July 2013 but anything now just too many elements can play out in this—I think it’s a lawyer tactic myself—and the MORE YARNELL COMMUNITY LOCALS that finally SHARE their accounts, videos and photos and for the firefighting folks—you want to be BRAVE and a HERO—freaking SHARE finally publicly vs. private. THAT TO ME IS A BRAVE HEROIC move…I won’t be online until geez I wish I can say next Sunday but most likely at a pc on Thanksgiving UNLESS I get something VERY HELPFUL and needs IMMEDIATELY to be shared—so until then…hope to find this MATT MANZANITA BACK BURN INFORMATION—
The Bitterroot Helitack I guess any thing is possible if the Payette Helitack was there they may have come down for other fires and stayed on as Fire backup resources and were assigned to Yarnell. Just didn’t see them on any dispatch order unless I missed it.
Thanks Joy and keep us informed we may not get much else unless every thing breaks loose.
Thanks Joy!!!
I’ve been pretty busy taking care of my mom, but wanted to let you know I caught this and will go back and look at the photos with that info as soon as I can.
I will try and post here. It seems to never post but try again…give it a shot-
This week was jam packed with so much information that I do not have the PC time to write it all out and pretty tight on things that no real sit down time to chat on it either except Sundays at 8pm-8:30pm Arizona time.
Shoot me a call the ones that have the number—otherwise I want to skim over some topics-
I met with retired government folks both in either wildfire/firefighting and military special assignments yesterday at 3pm. Right before that meeting a man came up to Sonny on the east side of hwy 89 across from the post office asking us to talk to him about the mayor and things like that. I was looking at him thinking (HELLO, MY NAME IS…OR WHERE HE IS FROM???) Yet it does not matter who he was or is because we say the same to all but he did state he worked for the YFD but was unsure if it was prior or current but did catch twelve years. We have no filter. It is the same said all around. I wish at times we did because as soon as we even mentioned the mayor a person who writes on THIS page has been trying to find out what the mayor knows or has and it was referred to him a “friend of a friend of a friend” Really? Be a straight shooter with him. Well, I have to say he always told us that one week of the fence he had more information—the topic of head cam was a discussion same day with Dr. Ted Putnam on the fire who IS NOT focused to the YHF but the Mann Gulch. Now I have no clue because people say “let’s hike” but it does not mean we will…kinda like Hollywood yet to this date anyone who asked us for a hike we have eventually hiked them.
I described the man who approached us at this meeting and they identified him as Errol Eastwood (46y.o. long time resident of Yarnell…his mother Monica owns the old Texaco gas station in Yarnell. He was the one who felt the YCSO was making him feel like a criminal when he stayed in Yarnell during evacuation to be with his mother and run to his home at 3am to feed his cats. This man said we had him in one of our photos so I thought some way someone gave him private photo links. Then he mentioned Penny Duncan was his neighbor and that was the lady & pets we saved (one of the folks we saved that day) on 6-30-13. I have soooooooooooo much information stirring and I just do not know where to start. I was given a pink piece of paper that says “MATT MANZANITA “video of back-burn” and when I tried to figure who was who in room and who handed it to me and why and what is it about…That would make 8 accounts now from locals with footage of a back burn between Sesame and the Helms plus one near the Ranch House Restaurant. YOU LOCALS really need to let me or media or John Dougherty or any fire investigator MINUS the SAIR but why not share to them too…maybe you can get a “oh shit” when you send them the photos as I have seen. Really. IT IS BEYOND THE RIGHT THING TO DO!!! Oh and I have 29 names of deaths since the fire and that is not all the names because I just have not had time to pay attention there but really alot of people are having severe health concerns in that community. I am awaiting a person name Ed in utah who helped build that area called the Boulder Springs Ranch. He has some very good information. Now I was busy today but yesterday I text the man named Errol who Dr. Leroy Anderson gave me the number and stated sorry we were short but I thought the library closed at 1pm not 2 and had stuff to do there. I am interested in HEARING more of his during evacuation accounts as well as his long history in Yarnell. I heard Errol’s name from ol’ hiking pal Tommy Maiden who died of cancer a few years ago…at 10:06am Errol text me back “Last night I was chatting with Lee helm, and we were talking about people hiking around the flagpole, and he told me that Chief Palm is trying to get you guys arrested for trespassing out there.” Well, Iemailed the Helms direct and no reply yet to confirm their dialect was complimentary but I also sent message to Chief Palm at 11:54 making him FULLY aware that I have heard this continuously about him arresting us so maybe we need to sit down with him but hey I spoke to Payne and Paxon last Summer 2013 and got the map as well as I have contacted State for any updates of the map or restrictions. I spoke to a deputy at YCSO on the legalities of such threats and where I trail. WHY IS CHIEF PALM so eager to have us arrested? That was my question to him..NO REPLY YET! When I get it I will let everyone know so they KNOW THE WAY HE EXPECTS US ALL TO TRAIL THAT AREA—I am not in the wrong to hike whoever out there so they can get closure or try to get answers to properly assess this fire and FREAKING A—19 men died. I’d be more like THANK YOU JOY FOR TAKING THE TIME OUT BECAUSE I AM BUSY—I let everyone know WHO we hike even at times I do not want to but we keep it with clarity—EVEN if someone says do not say my name than I still say ONE OF THE GMHS LOVED ONES we hiked—you see Chief Ben Palm…it is important they hike it with someone who knows the area like me because of the restrictions and state land and private land areas. Just for that alone is priceless than we can offer what we saw that day and weekend at the fire line not from in town. Like Charley Moseley stated (rest in peace Mose)
“Hey there bros, & many thanks for all the information. Hey the reason I refer to bros (…female smokejumper) “Bro” it is for ALL people who do things the right way and with enthusiasm. Joy and Sonny, you two really impress me—(hard to do)—and, I am highly appreciative of what you have done and are still doing. In the end, it is going to be your story that is going to prevail in this thing. Everybody else seems to have an axe to grind, or most probably, something to HIDE. You two are so upfront in all that you say and do that is most welcome to someone like me who has spent many years digging into cover ups, especially the Mann Gulch back in 1949 where our Forest Service first got away with high deceit and the practice of pushing the blame downhill.”
So for the fallen, the people who lost in all this in whatever manner—this will not end us helping—I have been asked and offered two decent jobs but I said not at this time, my life is completely dedicated to God’s time of revealing the TRUTH and you know what I will keep walking folks sick or not because it TAKES US ALL together to piece this out. If I disappear hiking a certain group or get arrested over a eager individual who has NO CLUE —God will handle it. I know in all my heart God would not allow me to be arrested over hiking and if it happened that way—I have the back up as I have been told from day one of a STRONG media force and there would be continuous coverage of HOW DARE THEY ARREST the ones just seeking clarity…and the how about this—How is it Yarnell can go to Peeples Valley to fight a fire and Peeples Valley fights Yarnell? Wouldn’t you want your own town to fight your own area because you know WHICH fire hydrants work and where they are, etc? OH THAT’S RIGHT CHIEF BEN PALM…you all get paid at a higher scale if you are not fighting your own area so again boils down to this bullshit money market game. Also who wants to awards on a tragedy (GOOGLE daily courier and read: “Arizona fire chiefs honor Fraijo” and “Former Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo honored for Yarnell Hill fire efforts” and “Fraijo, Hampton honored for Yarnell Hill fire efforts”) (Phillip “Mando” Maldonado he was a Granite Mountain Hotshot-when he joined the hike with us, I saw his eyes and believe you me 6-30-13 indeed was a tragedy yet to me acknowledging folks great—I mean United Way and Red Cross did an amazing job immediately as the evacuations happened yet I just do not see the award part-recognizing-sure but when you see people up close that have been affected by that weekend you will comprehend I meant nothing personal to me or us on awards or our accounts but to show there should be no awards but we should as a society just step up to the plate and help another—but it was weird to see the article was all-
does the sun rise and does the sun set?
Most think YES-sure yet facts are it APPEARS to rise and set because of the Earth’s rotation on its axis but it really cores down to appears-
it appears the SAIR stands by their report from THEIR position in this yet I know better that it sets different among others yet in it all we all state facts.I can tell you the facts from my position like it is hot today right here and from your position of where you are you may say it is hotter or colder yet it still remains we both just stated a fact.)(Posted: Monday, June 09, 2014
Article comment by: Joy Collura
Awards? That day the 19 men died changed our lives and believe you me I would never ever accept any kind of award for such a serious tragedy. Awards? Really? Really. I just do not get society. Tex and I both came back when the YCSO allowed residents to do so and helped 100s and yet if you ever once came to us with some award—I’d decline. This fire should never see any type of positive acknowledgement until it is fully investigated NOT the disservice the SAIR report did for the 19 fallen men and all fallen men—PLEASE, acknowledge everyone if you were to minus my photos from that weekend —there are still photos to arise and when they do in God’s time you will understand no way are awards to be given yet better education to wildfire fighting for their community. I would say THANK YOU to ALL that extended themselves to that weekend but never ever pick 2 out of all that did so much—
disappointed to see this—
NINETEEN men have no voice—
and children and wives and loved ones have no father, husband and etc…
I cannot believe this made it to press.
sad.)
Now, I am trying to wrap this up. be right back-
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on November 2, 2014 at 8:58 pm
Thank you, Joy! ( Ongoing thanks, of course )
>> Joy wrote…
>>
>> Phillip “Mando” Maldonado he was a Granite Mountain Hotshot-when
>> he joined the hike with us, I saw his eyes and believe you me 6-30-13
>> indeed was a tragedy
Philip Maldonado left the Granite Mountain Hotshots circa March of 2013, not long before the tragedy. He moved to the ‘Solid Waste’ Division in Prescott and it was his departure that precipitated the appointment of a ‘new GM squad leader’ shortly before Yarnell.
Philip Maldonado was also the ‘squad leader’ who is seen actually conducting ( and leading ) that ‘Granite Mountain Fire Shelter Drill’ video that appeared shortly after the incident.
That ‘Granite Mountain Fire Shelter Drill’ video is here…
http://cronkitenewsonline.com/2012/04/for-hotshot-fire-crews-training-can-be-a-matter-of-life-and-death/
From the article…
—————————————————————–
Cronkite News
Wednesday, April 25, 2012… by Connor Radnovich
TITLE: For hotshot firefighting crews, preparing for the worst becomes a way of life
Phillip “Mando” Maldonado, a squad leader, shouts instructions as a dozen hotshots, firefighters trained to combat wildfires in extreme conditions, face a nightmare scenario: flames rushing in from all sides and their survival hinging on successfully unfolding and wrapping themselves in thin sheets of heat-reflecting material.
“Get down! Heads toward center!” Maldonado yells, the urgency in his voice rising.
Diving to the ground, crew members attempt to form a tight circle and point their feet toward the approaching flames. That will deflect heat and help protect their torsos. They clamp down on the edges of their emergency shelters to make sure fire, smoke and heat can’t get inside, and they keep their faces near the ground to breathe cooler air that won’t damage their lungs.
There’s nothing to do now but wait.
——————————————————————-
Some followup information for the post above regarding exactly WHEN Philip Maldonado left the Granite Mountain Hotshots, WHO actually replaced him as a ‘Squad Boss’… and WHEN that actually happened.
On Monday, March 18, 2013 Prescott City Manager Craig McConnell emailed authorization to specific managers in the Prescott Fire Department to go ahead and begin the process of hiring another ‘Squad Boss’ to replace Philip Maldonado because of his recent transfer to the City of Prescott’s ‘Solid Waste’ Division.
McConnell emailed Prescott Human Resources Director Mary Jacobsen directly with his authorization and two minutes after receiving that email from him she, in turn, forwarded it to Prescott Fire Chief Dan Fraijo, Eric Marsh, Melissa Fousek, and Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis.
The SUBJECT line for both emails was simply “Maldonado”.
Here is that email that Jacobsen forwarded to them containing City Manager McConnell’s ‘authorization’…
———————————————————
From: Jacobsen, Mary
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:44 PM
To: Fraijo, Dan; Marsh, Eric; Fousek, Melissa; Willis, Darrell
Subject: FW: Maldonado
See approval below for in-house posting.
Mary M. Jacobsen
Human Resources Director
mary (dot) jacobsen (at) prescott-az (dot) gov
928-777-1216 Phone
928-777-1213 Fax
————————————————————–
From: McConnell, Craig
Sent: Monday, March 18, 2013 1:42 PM
To: Jacobsen, Mary
Subject: RE: Maldonado
Proceed to fill the Wildland Division vacancy created by transfer of
Phil Maldonado to Solid Waste.
————————————————————–
The attempt to fill Maldonado’s ‘Squad Boss’ position went on for about 2 weeks following the ‘authorization’ from City Manager McConnell and apparently resulted in Robert Caldwell being ‘moved up’ to the postion of ‘Squad Boss’ to take Maldonado’s place.
Here is the letter that went out on April 4, 2013, informing Robert Caldwell that he was being promoted to ‘Squad Boss’…
————————————————————-
From: City of Prescott Human Resources Division
201 S. Cortez.
Prescott, AZ 86301
www (dot) cityofprescott (dot) net
(928) 777-1347
(928) 777-1213 ( Fax )
(928) 777-1100 ( TDD )
CONGRATULATIONS!
April 4, 2013
Mr. Robert Caldwell
Dear Robert;
This letter serves as formal notification of your promotion to
Wildland Squad Boss effective March 31, 2013. Your new grade
will be a 58 with a rate of $18.32, hourly. With all promotions,
the City requires that you complete a new probationary period
of one (1) year which, upon success, will end on March 31, 2014.
Your new position is FLSA classified as non-exempt, which means
that you are eligible for overtime. Your PTO accruals and benefits
will remain unchanged.
Congratulations on your new position. I wish you continued success
at the City of Prescott!
The mission of the City of Prescott is to provide SUPERIOR CUSTOMER
SERVICE to create a FINANCIALLY SUSTAINABLE CITY and to serve as
the LEADER OF THE REGION.
Sincerely,
Laura Markel
Benefits Specialist
Cc: Personnel File / Eric Marsh
——————————————————————————
So Robert Caldwell officially became Philip Maldonado’s replacement as a Granite Mountain ‘Squad Boss’ only on March 31, 2013… just 91 days before the Yarnell tragedy on June 30, 2013.
THAT HIKE WITH PHIL “MANDO”—SONNY WENT WAY AHEAD OF THE WEATHER CHANNEL AND US—HE DID NOT WANT A MAN WHO HAD FACIAL HAIR LIKE A TE R R ORIST…HE SAID WE DO NOT KNOW WHO HE IS…I SAID WE WON’T DENY HIM OR ANYONE…WE DID NOT KNOW IT WAS A PREVIOUS GMHS UNTIL MID HIKE AND EVEN THEN I KEPT QUIET…IT WAS VERY COLD AND NIPPY THAT HIKE YET THE MOMENT HE STOOD ABOVE THE MEN I SAW IN HIS FACE WE HIKED THE RIGHT PERSON…THIS MAN COULD GO WITH FELLOW FIREFIGHTERS OR WILLIS OR CHIEF BEN PALM BUT HE NEEDED THIS HIKE TO SEE HOW YOU CAN GO TO THE AREA LEGALLY SINCE THEY STILL HAVE AREA RESTRICTED. NOW HE CAN GO ANYTIME SOLO-
WE HOPE TO HAVE THE MILAN ITALY ARTIST DO THE MURAL SO ANYONE CAN SEE THE WAY TO GO WITHOUT HAVING TO HAVE US THERE BECAUSE IT US A PRIVATE THING FOR SOME—
I DO HAVE SOME THAT COME TO ME STILL TO THIS DAY “JOY, MOVE ON…MOVE FORWARD…LET THE MEN GO…GET ON WITH YOUR LIFE…THEY WOULD WANT THAT..”
HELL NO. I HAVE NO AXE TO GRIND BUT I DO KNOW IT IS THE RIGHT THING TO DO TO GET THIS FIRE PROPERLY ASSESSED—SO LOCALS KEEP COMING TO ME WITH YOUR INFORMATION. YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO STOP BY WITHOUT INVITE TO MY CONGRESS HOME BUT PLEASE NEVER COME UNINVITED TO SONNY’S SPACE—HE DOES NOT LIKE PEOPLE IN HIS AREA—OLD RECLUSE MOUNTAIN MAN. YET YOU CAN SEE ME AT THE LIBRARY OR POST OFFICE OR JUST WALKING—I WILL STOP AND LOOK AT YOUR INFORMATION ANY DAY EVEN IF I AM OLD SOME DAY AND CANNOT GET OUT ANYMORE—
Thanks again, Joy… for your continuing participation in this ongoing discussion.
I don’t think Philip Maldonado was ever actually ‘interviewed’ by any of the investigation team(s)… but I believe he WAS on that ‘list’ of former GMHS that ADOSH sent emails to requesting interviews.
As far as we know… NONE of the list of maybe a dozen or so former GMHS that ADOSH contacted agreed to say anything at all about their time with the Granite Mountain Hotshots. Not a word… good, bad, or ugly.
Zero. Zip. Nada.
To this day… the reluctance of ANY former GMHS to say anything at all about their time with that outfit is, itself, rather strange.
Reardless… It’s probably pretty safe to say that the ‘look’ you say you saw on Maldonado’s face when he saw where all those men died might have been him thinking how close he came to being one of the dead men, himself.
He might have been thinking that if not for the sake of 91 days, and a job opening with the Solid Waste Division back in Prescott only back in Marsh of 2013… he, himself, might have also died in that canyon.
As for ‘grinding axes’… I don’t get that from your posting.
I think you are simply like a lot of others still searching for the full TRUTH about that weekend in Yarnell… and ( also like others )… you know that trees only fall with ‘one swing of the axe’ at a time.
With enough ‘swings of the axe’… the tree ( eventually ) falls.
Reading my way through this post. Thank you Joy. So much here.
This really jumps out for me and I agree.
You wrote:
“Awards? That day the 19 men died changed our lives and believe you me I would never ever accept any kind of award for such a serious tragedy. Awards? Really? Really. I just do not get society. Tex and I both came back when the YCSO allowed residents to do so and helped 100s and yet if you ever once came to us with some award—I’d decline. This fire should never see any type of positive acknowledgement until it is fully investigated NOT the disservice the SAIR report did for the 19 fallen men and all fallen men—PLEASE, acknowledge everyone if you were to minus my photos from that weekend —there are still photos to arise and when they do in God’s time you will understand no way are awards to be given yet better education to wildfire fighting for their community. ”
I understand the emotional motive for wanting to uplift certain people who, in certain circumstances, personally confronted certain kinds of chaotic danger (physical or social) to themselves in order to help others.
But the overall total fustercluck aftermath of this overall total fustercluck fire calls every so-called “award” into question.
For example, I respect Gary Cordes for, relatively speaking, risking his life going into Glen Illah, as it was burning, to find and save people. Yes I do.
But that wouldn’t have even been, most likely, necessary, if the realization that Bravo 3 had (at around fifteen minutes past noon) that the fire was, most likely, going to turn (under the most likely thunderstorms) and burn back uphill (as fires most naturally do) toward, the south/southwest and thence to Yarnell and Glen Illah, had been effectively communicated, effectively received, and effectively dealt with..
So, yes, why should Gary Cordes get an award when the action for which he got that award was in response to the negligence of the people above him regarding that fire?
What does it mean when certain individuals get awards for their personal bravery in response to something that has been seriously mis-managed and seriously mis-investigated? Thank you Joy, for raising this question..
And I’ve AWAYS thought Brian and Trew, of the Blue Ridge Hotshots, deserve at lease SOME kind of award for their bravery on this fire, if ANYBODY else did. Because of the USFS gag order, what”s their award? A Gag and then a bit of a naturally resulting Post Traumatic Stress experience.
So much for the AWARDS related to this fire.
**
** ARIZONA FORESTRY WANTS WRONGFUL DEATH SUITS DISMISSED
The Attorneys for the State of Arizona and Arizona Forestry have been busy.
Not only are they still trying to get the ADOSH findings dismissed for what they call a ‘lack of substantive evidence’… a few days ago they came at the whole thing from the other direction and filed a petition for the ‘wrongful death’ suits themselves to be ‘dismissed’ as ‘invalid’.
What’s odd about this petition is that they are ‘showing their cards’ with how they intend to pursue a defense in the wronfgul death lawsuits IF they are allowed to proceed.
In the petition… the AZ State Lawyers admit flat-out that it is THEIR position that the Granite Mountain Hotshots WERE de-facto ’employees’ of the State of Arizona at the time of their deaths.
That is allowing them to ALSO take the position that their deaths ( for whatever reason ) are, in fact, fully covered by that ‘Exclusive Result’ clause of ‘workers compensation’ insurance.
It is also allowing them to cite an obscure clause in Arizona Law which says that anyone fighting a fire while a de-facto employee of the State of Arizona is NOT capable of committing any negligence whatsoever.
So that allows them to claim that no ‘negligence’ could possibly be proved which means that the simple ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Arizona State Workers Compensation insurance must be the ‘end of the story’ with regards to any fatalities suffered in Yarnell.
This is basically the same ‘get out of responsibility free’ card that the City of Prescott was already claiming before the ‘wrongful death’ suits were ever filed.
The ADOSH report is what first established (officially) that there WAS negligence in that workplace on June 30, 2013… so that is why Arizona Forestry has to attack the report. If they can get that ‘evidence of negligence’ mitigated ( or even negated ) then it would be soley up to the attorneys for the families to prove there was any ‘negilgence’ that day.
They must be thinking that they will NOT be able to get those ADOSH findings ‘mitigated’ and that that evidence of ‘negligence’ will survive the upcoming review of those findings… so now they have to ‘power up the shields’ and try to say that regardless of any proof of negligence… the wrongful death lawsuits still don’t rise about the simple ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Arizona’s own Workers Compensation Insurance.
They really, really don’t want any of this to go to court, and have all the ‘evidence’ come out.
If they lose both the attempt to mitigate the ADOSH findings AND they lose the attempt to have the lawsuits dismissed… they will most likely ( then ) ‘settle’ the suits with the plaintiffs and probably put stipulations in the settlement that nothing they tell the families about what happened that day can ever show up in the press or become ‘public’ knowledge.
AZCENTRAL article…
State Seeks Dismissal of Suit in Yarnell Hill Fire
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2014/10/25/yarnell-fire-lawsuit-hotshots-survivors/17894343/
In the article above… one of the attorneys for the families of the Hotshots that died ( Patrick McGroder ) reiterated, in no uncertain terms, that while there basically HAVE to be compensatory amounts involved in order to even file a civil suit… that is NOT ( and never has been ) the real reason the families filed the suits.
The REAL reason is because they ‘Want to KNOW the TRUTH’ about what happened.
And THAT also seems to be the one thing that Arizona Forestry does NOT want either them or the public to ever know.
I hope the following statement from Mr. McGroder means that the plaintiffs will NOT accept any ‘settlement’ that puts any kind of ‘gag order’ on the families when it comes to information that might be provided as part of any ‘settlement’.
From the article…
—————————-
Although the lawsuit seeks compensation, Patrick McGroder, an attorney for surviving families, said monetary damages were not the motive or objective. “The underpinning of this litigation is really the families want transparency and responsibility and, most importantly, a forum to ensure changes … so this doesn’t happen again,” he added.
—————————-
Very Interesting
I think this is just the beginning of the back and forth by lawyers as I have seen in the past. It could take some time in the filing and cross filing of different legal briefs to get to a settlement or an actual trial. This will challenge the fortitude of the Families
And could last awhile getting to a trial or settlement.
A copy of the actual ‘Motion for Dismissal’ filed in District Court by the Arizona State Attorneys is here…
http://www.courthousenews.com/2014/10/27/Yarnell%20Dismiss.pdf
Notice that it is ONLY asking for ‘dismissal’ of the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits as it pertains to Arizona State agencies and employees. It does NOT ask for dismissal on behalf of ALL the ‘defendants’ named in the ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits.
It will be impossible now ( going forward ) for Arizona Forestry to try and throw Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and/or GM and/or Prescott Wildland Division ‘under the bus’ if the case goes to trial.
Their claims for ‘dismissal’ are all based on a de-facto admission that Marsh, Steed and ALL of Granite Mountain were, in fact, employees of the State of Arizona at the time they all died.
From the claim itself.
The State of Arizona attorneys are ‘stipulating’ that, in no uncertain terms, Marsh, Steed and ALL of Granite Mountain were employees of the State of Arizona when they died…
——————————-
At the time of their deaths, the decedents and the other members of the Prescott Fire Department’s Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew were working under the jurisdiction and control of the State, and within its jurisdictional boundaries, pursuant to an intergovernmental agreement between the Prescott Fire Department and the State.
———————————-
Here’s a new one for you all.
Evidently, Brendan McDonough has had somewhat of an epiphany of the tragic YHF events and has finally decided to come forward. He is said to have. approached SAIT members in order to reveal more of what he heard on 30 June 2013 on the GMHS Crew Net radio channel. He will be deposed this week or next by attorneys and his deposition will then be “released” after that. But released to whom? It’s not yet clear on whether this recent deposition will be released publicly or just to the attorneys and in the courts.
One has to question the accuracy, validity, and veracity of his statements after coming forward a year and a half after the incident. What with all the exposure to the media, investigators, friends and family, and many more – how ‘tainted’ will his testimony be UNLESS he took really good notes of all that he heard that day? Except for when he may have been distracted moving GMHS vehicles, he heard just about everything that day on the GHMS Crew Net. He knows what the GMHS overhead talked about.
I wonder if the “epiphany” is at all related to talk of the extra 43 minutes of helmet footage.
What I can’t understand is that no one cared to do a thorough debrief of McDonough at the time of the event, before his memory was completely affected by all of the pressures and events around him. It’s not a question of veracity or intentions. In my belief, anyone would be affected by some of the same things. so, in assessing anything he says, for me it would be important to see if it jibes with what is known, and what may be a simple explanation for what occurred. Or, if it jibes with what feels good, and is a PC explanation for what occurred.
Thank you for this and BINGO to SR.
See a bit below what I’m asking WTKTT about what info etc AZF was “gathering” July 1 and 2 (and maybe even later) from Blue Ridge and Peeples Valley crews. And, thus, who knows from whomever else. Including, YOU WOULD THINK, from Brendan.
And also there was an AAR–Tuesday evening, I think. Who knows who was involved in that or what they discussed or whether or not it was “archived.”
After Ted Putnam refused to sign the SAIR of the South Canyon Fire, he eventually published his own Human Factors Analysis of the fire. He interviewed people in order to do that. I haven’t had time to read that Analysis. But I think I now will.
I want to see what he says about interviewing witnesses after some time (and a SAIR) has passed.
But that was also before the explosion of social media. Who knows how much THAT has influenced what Brendan now may think he heard and experienced that day.
I do think his awareness that the full helmet-cam video is about to be released (and I would assume he would be among those whom are being currently shown it) is both a stimulus for him to speak out and also, possibly (depending on what’s on it), a reality-check on his otherwise likely memory-bending.
If it turns out that Brendan McDonough really has had his own ‘agenda’ all along… and really HAS always been ‘withholding testimony’… I think this young man is going to finally learn that once those horses leave the barn it’s hard to put them back.
There are a lot of people, at this point, that wouldn’t trust ANYTHING he now has to say even if he put his hand on a Bible in the Civil Proceedings and swore to “tell the truth”.
I still think he should tell all he knows. Everything.
I think he should have done that from DAY ONE.
I think he has always been badly advised by mentor figures that have also always had their OWN agendas.
Whatever Brendan says now… it will be a TBV moment.
“Trust… but VERIFY”.
SIDENOTE: If it really does actually turn out that Brendan has always been behaving in a way that could be construed as “obstructing an investigation”… I wonder if he will have to give up his Arizona State Senate special appointment to the official Arizona Granite Mountain State Memorial Committee?
A lot of new stuff out there stacking up. I’ll beat JD is busy trying to get the info for IM.
I think Johns last article may just prove its info True.
Now we wait for what we have all thought existed.
It could very well be that a LOT of this ‘new’ evidence will never see the light of day… if Arizona Forestry is actually trying to work some kind of DEAL with the plaintiffs in the civil lawsuits.
The ‘wrongful death’ lawsuits state specifically that they want to know the TRUTH about what happened that day.
Well… maybe in exchange for a ‘settlement’… AZF is trying to arrange for them to finally learn that… but ONLY if they agree to never share that information with the press or the public.
It’s possible.
Personally… I hope the plaintiffs do NOT agree to any kind of DEAL like that.
I think the PUBLIC also deserves to know what really happened that entire weekend in Yarnell.
I believe the more people involved with the information the grater chance they will start to talk and release the info sooner or later A number of people outside the State AZF have now reviewed the Head cam audio Some one will start to talk to the media. As for McDonough we will have to see if what he stated to is or is not legally confidential As a Crewman he was in charge of NO decisions concerning the crew and would be classed as a witness only. His testimony could as well be backed up by BR and the Head Cam or other audio recordings. His testimony now may be biased on being caught in a corner with continued silence about what he herd and he decided to tell all.
Or some of the family actually got to him, we shall see if the testimony surfaces it will be thru media pressure.
Copy that.
It’s also possible that at this stage the attorneys for the plaintiffs are issuing their subpoenas for witnesses… and Brendan’s attorney is trying to negotiate some kind of DEPOSITION versus an actual in-person court appearance that would be subject to cross-examination.
If the plaintiff’s attorneys agree to that… then it’s hard to say whether that additional ‘testimony’ from Brendan would ever be publicly available.
It would pretty much have to be ‘read into the testimony’ at the civil trial and then the records would need to remain unsealed in order for the public to ever ‘see’ that full deposition itself.
It’s complicated.
I just hope he tells everything he knows to SOMEONE… and that that leads to a better explanation ( for the families sake ) of why their loved ones all died that day.
They really do deserve to know as much as possible about what REALLY happened that weekend.
The Only thing we really don’t know is the circumstances that lead them to where they died.
I still contend as from the first day Marsh and Steed made some very critical bad decisions that put the crew where they were.
They and they alone were responsible for the crew.
I doubt that the answers are going to be happy ones or any relief for the families.
So, any idea how the new 43 minutes of helmet-cam material that ADOSH has relates to existing document request? Would getting people to file new requests be helpful in jarring this loose at this point?
It sounds like this material may well change, dramatically, the narrative of the fire. And, change dramatically the already negative view of the SAIT and SAIR, with questions along the lines of “why didn’t you guys release this? You really didn’t notice this?” etc.
By this point one would also think the contents of that new 43 minutes would have been shared informally a little more broadly.
Well.. it seems to remain rather mysterious and complicated.
Example: Aaron Hulburd shot that video. He works for Prescott National Forest. IF he first tried to go through his own normal work channels to get that evidence to the Arizona Forestry investigators… then I suppose the FEDS are the ones the that still have the originals.
If he did NOT do that… and gave whatever he had ( all of it? ) directly to the SAIT investigators, then ( theoretically ) ALL of whatever he gave them SHOULD be obtainable with simple Arizona Open Records requests.
However… keep in mind that we already know for sure that Arizona Forestry pulled a ‘fast one’ with OTHER evidence they had which ended up being controlled by the FEDS.
We know, for sure, that Arizona Forestry ( at some point ) had copies of the FULL ( unredacted ) Unit Logs from Blue Ridge. We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby, Brown, Fueller and Ball.
But when the Arizona Open Records requests started to show up… Arizona Forestry then ‘pretended’ that they did NOT have the full unredacted Unit Logs and they then tried to say that evidence was controlled by the FEDS and anyone wanting it had to file Toughy requests with the FEDS, and not THEM.
So maybe the same thing has been going down with regards to Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam material.
At some point ( or perhaps even now ) Arizona Forestry seems to have had everything Hulburd filmed… but they only decided to RELEASE those 7 minutes and 49 seconds that only cover the MAYDAY transmissions.
Any attempts to get the FULL material they might have may be being ‘punted’ back to the FEDS, just like the game they played with the Blue Ridge interviews and Unit Logs.
The rumor is still that ( despite all this gamesmanship ) Arizona ADOSH seems to have filed all the right ‘requests’ ( either AZ Open Records or FED Touhy requests ) and they were somehow able to get ALL of Hulburd’s evidence.
If that really IS true… then ( again, theoretically ), whatever ADOSH has should now ALSO be obtainable with simple Arizona Open Records requests since ADOSH is an Arizona State Level agency and is NOT actually ‘Federal OSHA’.
The ‘catch’ in ALL of this, however, is that there really are always ways that someone who has material subject to FOIA / FOIL requests can STILL claim ‘exceptions’ and ‘reasons’ why they should not have to release certain things.
The FEDS might have coughed up ALL of Hulburd’s footage to ADOSH via a Touhy request… but they might still have put ‘restrictions’ on it due to some ‘exceptions’ they might be claiming such as the generic ‘privacy concerns’.
I still think the key to understanding exactly what exists, exactly how it got into Arizona Forestry’s hands, and exactly what is contained in the material…
…is Aaron Hulburd himself.
He can be ‘compelled to testify’ in the civil litigation and someone can eventually just ASK him what the truth is, here.
Unless this Helmet-Cam stuff just showed up on someone’s doorstep at Arizona Forestry… it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue mission’. itself.
No one has ever seen these ‘interviews’ or even an NOTES from them.
So Arizona Forestry has always been playing ‘fast and loose’ even with fulfilling legal Arizona Open Records requests.
If they had ALL the Hulburd footage since day one, and they also did any kind of ‘interview’ with Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell… then all that material SHOULD have been released in response to even the first round of legal Arizona Open Records requests.
They didn’t.
We KNOW that AZF has withheld all KINDS of stuff from those legal Arizona Open Records requests.
That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.
It’s a mess… but it is now a mess of Arizona Forestry’s own making.
Someone REALLY doesn’t want the public ( or even the families of the men who lost their lives ) to know what actually happened that day.
You wrote:
“We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby, Brown, Fueller and Ball.”
How do you know that? (Not questioning YOU, just that I don’t remember that and trying to figure out WHO had WHAT and WHEN)
You wrote:
” it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue mission’. itself.”
When do you think AZF interviewed them? Are we talking about July 1/2 when, apparently, they were getting Blue Ridge to write up those logs and getting that info from the Peeples Valley crew?
You wrote:
“That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.”
And, don’t forget, all their PHOTOGRAPHS!
Working off the top of my head, did the Peeples Valley Crew say they were interviewed?
Thanks in advance.
It’s been really hard to keep track, over all this time, of who has been releasing what in response to what, and when they have been releasing it, and what they most likely were collecting from whom and when, and, thus, what they most likely still have in their back pockets. With or/and without the protections/interference by the USFS.
And, yeah, thinking now about how long it seems to have taken for AZF to redact the Blue Ridge Logs and then finally release them. My magic markers are a whole lot faster than that. I think they are smarter, too.
Reply from Marti Reed post on October 30, 2014 at 5:36 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “We also even know for sure that Arizona Forestry was
>> allowed to do in-person interviews with at least Frisby,
>> Brown, Fueller and Ball.”
>>
>> How do you know that?
From very top of page 6 of the ‘SAIT Investigation Notes’ document…
——————————————-
Interview with Blue Ridge IHC
Supt: Brian Frisby Foreman:
True Brown Squad Boss:
Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
Interviewed by Godot, Jay, Jimmie, Tim, Jim, and Mike 07/10/2013
——————————————-
The DATE of the notes means that the SAIT was allowed to interview them ( in person ) just 10 days after the tragedy and these were some of the very first interviews the newly formed SAIT conducted.
SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley also directly admitted ( in public ) that they had these ‘in person’ interviews with members of Blue Ridge.
He even said that these ‘in person’ interviews they had with Blue Ridge were second in importance only to their ‘in person’ interview with Brendan McDonough himself.
From the transcript of SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s speech in front of that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014…
So when we gathered as a team… we started gathering the facts.
We had a key… core group of interviews… and… ya look at the
immediate membership of the type two team and key components
and from that… we expanded out who we wanted to interview.
————————————————–
Mike Dudley said…
The most critical interview… was the LOOKOUT… because he
was there on the site and he could walk us through the area.
The next most critical intervew was the Blue Ridge Hotshots
because their leadership… they were right there workin’ with
Granite Mountain and knew Granite Mountain extremely well
‘cus they’re so close… they spent a lotta time together.
The third critical interview was the ASM… or in this case… because
we’re all fire people… it was Bravo 33 that was over the site. They
heard communications.
Those were the three most critical interviews and then you expanded
it out from there.
————————————————————-
There are also public statements from SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley which indicate there was far more information being provided via these interviews with Blue Ridge than was ever included in these SAIT ‘interview notes’.
Example…
At +1 hour and 40 minutes into Dudley’s speech, a Utah firefighter asked Dudley if they ( the SAIT ) had found any evidence of ‘dissension’ within GM about making that risky move that afternoon.
Dudley then QUOTES someone from ‘Blue Ridge’… but the information he is quoting as having come from their ‘interviews’ with Blue Ridge is nowhere to be found in their own publicly released SAIT interview notes.
——————————————————————-
+1:04:10
* Question from audience member: Do you know of any… uhm… dissention
* within the crew… did they try and split off at any point prior to or during
* the deployment?
Dudley: The question is… was there any decision… dissention within the crew
and did any folks try to split off. Ah… Blue Ridge made the comment.. a number of those folks… they said “you know what… when they left the lunch spot… they were ALL in lock-step with one other”… because that was a pretty cohesive crew. Uh.. they were very, very close to one another.
————————————————————–
NOTE: What does Dudley mean by this? Does he mean that Blue Ridge actually SAW them leaving the lunch spot ( with binoculars, or something )?… or does he mean that Blue Ridge HEARD them ‘deciding’ to leave and didn’t hear any dissention or disagreement?
Whatever ‘Blue Ridge’ statement SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley is talking about there… it is NOWHERE in their own NOTES from their own interview with Blue Ridge.
That pretty much means there is probably a LOT that ‘Blue Ridge’ was telling them during those July 10 ‘interviews’ that never made into their own SAIT notes released in response to FOIA requests.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> ” it is inconceivable that AZF did not also actually INTERVIEW
>> Aaron Hulburd. It’s also inconceivable that they would not then
>> have ALSO interviewed Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell…
>> since they also played a critical role in the ‘ground rescue
>> mission’. itself.”
>>
>> When do you think AZF interviewed them?
>> Are we talking about July 1/2 when, apparently, they
>> were getting Blue Ridge to write up those logs and
>> getting that info from the Peeples Valley crew?
I think it took longer than that for them to even become aware that Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera footage even existed.
The SAIT wasn’t even fully ‘formed’ and ‘authorized’ until July 4.
Whatever ‘interviewing’ or ‘evidenced gathering’ was happening prior to the issuance of that official ‘transfer of investigative authority’ from AZF to the SAIT on July 4 was simply some UNKNOWN number of Arizona Forestry officials conducting their own preliminary ‘interviews’ and gathering of evidence. That includes the interviews and evidence gathering with the Peeples Valley firefighters. That all preceded the actual ‘transfer of investigative’ authority from AZF to the newly assembled SAIT.
We have no idea WHEN Aaron Hulburd made any attempt to give what he had to ANYONE… or WHO he first gave it to… so I really can’t even venture a guess as to when the SAIT first became aware of it.
However… we know that by August 22… both of the following were true…
1) ADOSH’s Wildland Fire Associates investigators themselves were already aware of Hulburd’s ‘recordings’. They mention them directly in their August 22 in-person interview with OPS1 Todd Abel.
2) In that same August 22 interview when ADOSH mentioned that someone had ‘recorded’ all of the MAYDAY traffic to Todd Abel… Abel was not the least bit surprised and just said “Yep” in confirmation. So somehow OPS1 Todd Abel himself seemed to be fully aware of this ‘Helmet Cam’ footage even before he stepped into the room for his ADOSH interview.
So the only thing we seem to know for sure is that sometime between July 1, 2013, and August 22, 2013… certain ‘select’ individuals ( even including OPS1 Todd Abel ) were fully aware of Hulburd’s Helmet Cam ‘footage’ ( at least the part where the MAYDAY traffic was fully captured ).
I would imagine, then, that the SAIT had also fully interviewed Aaron Hulburd ( AND Jason Clawson AND KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) before the end of July, at the latest.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You wrote:
>>
>> “That even includes all the depositions and cell phone records
>> we KNOW they obtained from the Peeples Valley Firefighters
>> who, themselves, almost died that day in Harper Canyon.”
>>
>> Working off the top of my head, did the Peeples Valley Crew
>> say they were interviewed?
Peeples Valley FF Bob Brandon himself has posted his OWN account about all this ( in his OWN words and not through a reporter ) on a PUBLIC website/blog associated with the Yarnell Hill Recovery Effort.
That PUBLIC testimony from Bob Brandon is still right here…
http://www.yarnellhillrecoverygroup.org/os_bob_brandon.html
From Bob Brandon’s own PUBLIC account of some ‘mysterious’ investigators interviewing he and the other Peeples Valley FFs on July 2, ( and taking lots of evidence form them ) just two days after the tragedy…
————————————————————-
The next day they took us in and debriefed us. This was two days after the incident with the 19. They went through and looked at my pictures and took a flash card of them. And I don’t know what they did with them, but it was pretty good because my pictures had timelines on them, so they could see what happened at what time.
Then they took information off our cellphones because that’s how we talked to, texted, each other. And those all had timelines on them, too. What time we were there. What time we were aware that the fire was about to overtake us. What time we got out. And some of the texts about whether we were safe.
—————————————————————-
NOTE: We still have NO idea who the ‘They’ people are that Bob Brandon says did all this interviewing and collected all this evidence from them… or WHERE any of that evidence is NOW.
The FULL transcript of this PUBLIC testimony from Bob Brandon was posted back in Chapter VIII ( EIGHT ) of this ongoing discussion.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> And, don’t forget, all their PHOTOGRAPHS!
And ( even more importantly )… some VIDEOS they also (apparently) took.
ANY ‘video’ from that day has the chance of containing background radio captures that might not have been heard before.
Followup… there was a formatting ‘screw up’ ( my bad ) up above with that section where Mike Dudley admitted in PUBLIC that they ( the SAIT ) considered their in-person interviews with Blue Ridge second in importance only to their Brendan McDonough interview.
I put the START of the Dudley quote(s) in the wrong place.
That section above SHOULD have looked like this…
————————————————–
Mike Dudley said…
So when we gathered as a team… we started gathering the facts.
We had a key… core group of interviews… and… ya look at the
immediate membership of the type two team and key components
and from that… we expanded out who we wanted to interview.
The most critical interview… was the LOOKOUT… because he
was there on the site and he could walk us through the area.
The next most critical intervew was the Blue Ridge Hotshots
because their leadership… they were right there workin’ with
Granite Mountain and knew Granite Mountain extremely well
‘cus they’re so close… they spent a lotta time together.
The third critical interview was the ASM… or in this case… because
we’re all fire people… it was Bravo 33 that was over the site. They
heard communications.
Those were the three most critical interviews and then you expanded
it out from there.
————————————————————-
This also has to do w/what RTS and are writing up above about Brendan being debriefed.
Apparently AZF debriefed/or whatevered Blue Ridge and the Peeples Valley Crew.
So are you thinking (as actually I am and have pretty much doing so all along but there has been no EVIDENCE released) that AZF was, in fact, debriefing/interviewing whoever they could get to sit down with them ASAP (as they probably should have been doing–and there WAS an AAR, don’t forget), and that would likely mean there is possibly/probably a WHOLE lot of stuff conveniently sitting in their back pocket along with the whole helmet-cam video?
I meant to say “what Robert The Second and SR are saying above.”
Marti… yes… I believe AZF was gathering all the information they could BEFORE the transfer of ‘investigative authority’ to this SAIT thing even took place ( on July 4, 2013 ).
I believe this is also just more ‘gamesmanship’ on the part of AZF.
We must ASSUME that AZF actually SHARED whatever they already had with Jim Karels and Mike Dudley just after they stepped off airplanes… but we have no actual PROOF of that.
Even if they ( AZF ) did share everything they already had with Karels and Dudley as soon as they were ‘authorized’ to start seeing the material ( on July 4, 2013 )… the gamesmanship may have extended to the Arizona Public Records requests that started arriving after the SAIR came out.
In other words… the GAME that AZF might have been playing then is that if an ‘Open Records’ request was targeted specifically at the SAIT… they might have been playing the game where they thought they could get away with holding back any evidence that THEY had originally collected.
It’s the game that many public agencies play with regards to FOIA and FOIL requests. If the request for the information is not targeted specifically to the agency that actually claims OWNERSHIP of the material… then you get to respond to the FOIA / FOIL with bullshit like “That information is not in the possession of this agency”.
It’s the Catch-22 with some FOIA / FOIL requests.
You are trying to find out what people have because you don’t know what they have… but that also means you don’t know exactly WHAT agency name to put on the request itself.
In other words… sometimes in order to get ALL the information you have to somehow already know what they have and WHO thinks they ‘own’ it.
Maybe that’s what happened with all the Peeples Valley evidence.
It was collected by AZF just BEFORE the SAIT was formed… so if any FOIA / FOIL request had the SAIT name as a target… AZF could withhold evidence that they thought they could claim was solely THEIRS… and NOT the SAIT’s.
It’s all just pure gamesmanship and mental gymnastics to find any way you can to NOT cooperate with legal requests for information.
It’s just like the Blue Ridge Unit Logs.
The SAIT was able to SEE the unredacted versions ( even though they are ‘owned’ by the FEDS ) and learn everything they possibly could from them… but then when the State-Level Arizona Open Records requests for those Unit Logs started to show up they were able to pretend they were never ‘in their possession’ and, as such, were NOT subject to an Arizona Open Records request at all.
The SAIT got to see the complete versions.
Mike Dudley ( USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead ) saw to that.
But as far as ‘ownership’ goes… they could always deny ‘owning’ the material themselves or having to turn it over to any valid Arizona Open Records request.
Fun game, eh?
Regarding government officials, the press, and lying.
I’ve been pretty closely following the events in Ferguson/Saint Louis over the past 80 days since Mike Brown was shot down by a Ferguson Police Officer. It’s been a hot mess of Cover-Up and continuing police brutality.
Someone in my Ferguson Twitter List recently posted an article by Ben Bradlee, the recently deceased Washington Post editor. As I read it, I realized how relevant is is to what I think we are dealing with regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire. They really do lie.
In His Own Words: Ben Bradlee On Liars
“”Ben Bradlee, who passed away Tuesday at age 93, was executive editor of The Washington Post from 1968 to 1991. This essay is excerpted from the Press-Enterprise Lecture he delivered at the University of California, Riverside, on Jan. 7, 1997.”
“Newspapers don’t tell the truth under many different, and occasionally innocent, scenarios. Mostly when they don’t know the truth. Or when they quote someone who does not know the truth.
And more and more, when they quote someone who is spinning the truth, shaping it to some preconceived version of a story that is supposed to be somehow better than the truth, omitting details that could be embarrassing.
And finally, when they quote someone who is flat-out lying. There is a lot of spinning and a lot of lying in our times — in politics, in government, in sports and everywhere. It’s gotten to a point where, if you are like me, you no longer believe the first version of anything. It wasn’t always that way.
I guess it started for me with Vietnam, when the establishment felt it had to lie to justify a policy that, as it turned out, was never going to work.”
SNIP
“America did start to lose faith in its leaders. All that information is contained in the Pentagon Papers, incidentally, if anybody ever wonders why newspapers raised such hell about being denied the right to print information from those documents. The idea, incidentally, that any of that was secret boggles your mind. And yet the government of Richard Nixon took two papers to the Supreme Court to try to stop them from publishing a story for the first time in the history of the republic.”
SNIP
Regarding the risks the Washington Post was taking to out all the lies:
“Let me just take a little riff on this one because it is so outrageous. It’s a civil case where you’re not indicted, but if you lose a civil case, you know damn well you’re going to be indicted. And if you’re indicted and you happen to lose in front of a jury, you know damn well that your newspaper is going to lose all its television stations because a felon can’t own a television station.”
(I’m thinking that works the other way around also. Ahem.)
SNIP
“Even the very best newspapers have never learned how to handle public figures who lie with a straight face. No editor would dare print this version of Nixon’s first comments on Watergate, for instance: ‘The Watergate break-in involved matters of national security, President Nixon told a national TV audience last night, and for that reason he would be unable to comment on the bizarre burglary. That is a lie.’
We won’t dare do that. But that is what it was, and, for better or for worse, we aided and abetted in publishing something that wasn’t the truth, something that was a lie. I hate to hedge this by calling them non-truths; I like to call them lies. And even the boldest editorial pages, where such a comment might be appropriate, are reluctant to strike that hard, that fast.”
SNIP
“The conservative pundit William Schneider, whom most of you know or have seen on television, had it just about right, it seems to me, when he said: ‘Gingrich’s violation of House rules was not an inadvertent error. It was a systematic pattern of deception, carried out with hubris and defiance over several years.’ You know it’s one or the other; it can’t be both.”
SNIP
“The more aggressive our search for truth, the more some people are offended by the press. The more complicated are the issues and the more sophisticated are the ways to disguise the truth, the more aggressive our search for truth must be, and the more offensive we are sure to become to some.
So be it.
Remember, Walter Lippmann was right so many years ago when he wrote that, in a democracy, the truth and nothing but the truth are rarely available immediately. In a democracy, the truth emerges — sometimes it takes years — and that is how the system is supposed to work and eventually strengthen itself.
I take great strength from that now, knowing that in my experience, the truth does emerge. It takes forever sometimes, but it does emerge. And that any relaxation by the press will be extremely costly to democracy.
“http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-his-own-words-ben-bradlee-on-liars/2014/10/22/6236cadc-4a67-11e4-a046-120a8a855cca_story.html
That link didn’t post correctly. I guess because the quotation mark ended up in the wrong place. Here is is:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/in-his-own-words-ben-bradlee-on-liars/2014/10/22/6236cadc-4a67-11e4-a046-120a8a855cca_story.html
Hey Sonny:
On OCTOBER 21, 2014 AT 10:30 AM sonny gilligan wrote:
“Bob, one thing when we had a visit with Ted Putnam is that he noticed a Montana unit of firefighters helitac unit truck in one of the new photos Joy fished out a local person that had lost her home in the Yarnell fire. It was interesting that Ted said it was the first he knew of that and did not see that truck or hear of it in any of the investigative reports and considering his expertise I thought the photo ought to be put out there. I don’t know the significance of that truck but it is also time stamped and shows its location. This might be a photo of significance so email us and we will send the photo.”
At the beginning of this month I spent some serious time trying to identify all the aircraft on the fire June 30 and data-basing them with all the images of them, both on the fire and from other photos of them on the Internet. I didn’t quite finish doing it.
I don’t have any records of a helitack crew from Montana on the fire. There was a helitack crew from Idaho on the fire, connected to the helicopter 215KA, which was a major player on Sunday. That helicopter and their Price Valley Heli-Rappel Crew were assigned to the fire around 8AM (AZ time via the dispatch logs) on Sunday. At that time they were near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Their crew buggy had broken down and they were getting it fixed, so I don’t think it got to the fire any time soon.
But the helicopter w/some crew flew over and started working the fire about noon. And I’m guessing their chase truck took off about then, too, and headed to Yarnell, but I don’t know when it got there, and haven’t seen any visuals of it on the fire. I’ve been trying to figure this out.
My daughter’s father lives in Flagstaff (I live in Albuquerque) and she drives back and forth a lot. She said it usually takes her about 5 hours to drive it at about 85-90 mph (a bit over the speed limit). I don’t think the chase truck/crew would have been driving that fast, so I’d estimate it would take them about six hours. From Santa Fe to Albuquerque takes about an hour. I don’t know how long it takes from Flag to Yarnell, maybe about an hour and a half? So that would add up to about eight and a half hours, meaning they’wouldn’t have arrived until around 1630/4:30 PM at the earliest.
So, I’m REALLY curious about that photo and I will send you an email for it. I’m hoping the email address I have for you from way earlier this year is still accurate.
Thank you!
You have my correct E-Mail
Sonny may have mistaken McCall ID for Montana???
Price valley Ranger District is outside McCall Smoke Jumper Base
That’s what I’m thinking, but Sonny said Ted Putnam said the truck in the photo was from a Montana Crew. So I just want to make sure, plus I’d really like to have a photo of it.
Not to mention that the Moki helitack crew, from N Arizona/Southern Utah was also still there on Sunday, or at least their helicopter was, so it could also be their truck.
I’ve learned a lot working on these aircraft ids. How aircraft, crews, pilots, contractors, agencies connect and such. Plus it’s been kind of fun.
Way more fun than working on my mom’s income taxes!
I just got home from a 10-hour day and haven’t checked my email yet.
Wow, they sent me a boatload of photos today. Now I just have to find the one I’m looking for!
And now that I’ve perused the emails, I’ll send you that photo Bob–when I find it!
Marti if there was a truck it would show the Forest and district letters that would ID it as a Montana vehicle. Look for those back and sides.
Marti also the list of people and equipment on the fire would have the helitack crew listed. From the fire ordering and arrived resources.
Well, unfortunately, I haven’t found anything in the photos they sent me in an email that said “helitack should be in here” that is of a helitack crew truck on June 30.
There is a photo on July 2 that shows a “Minnesota Helitack” truck.
Reply to Marti Reed post October 28, 2014 at 8:51 am
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I don’t have any records of a helitack crew from Montana on the fire.
>> There was a helitack crew from Idaho on the fire, connected to the
>> helicopter 215KA, which was a major player on Sunday. That helicopter
>> and their Price Valley Heli-Rappel Crew were assigned to the fire
>> around 8AM (AZ time via the dispatch logs) on Sunday. At that time
>> they were near Santa Fe, New Mexico. Their crew buggy had broken
>> down and they were getting it fixed, so I don’t think it got to the fire
>> any time soon.
>>
>> But the helicopter w/some crew flew over and started working the
>> fire about noon. And I’m guessing their chase truck took off about
>> then, too, and headed to Yarnell, but I don’t know when it got there,
>> and haven’t seen any visuals of it on the fire. I’ve been trying
>> to figure this out.
About the best ( only? ) testimony about some / all of those ELEVEN Price Valley Helitack crew that were listed in the Resource Orders as actually being in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 is still the parts of Rance Marquez’s testimony to ADOSH.
DIVSZ Rance Marquez said he met up with them at the ICP and was actually ‘sitting with them’ there just prior to the time they supposedly got tapped to go help with structure protection in the Sickles Ranch Road area.
This would have been when Planning OPS2 Paul Musser decided to abandon his ‘Planning OPS’ role that day and jump into the fire as the second fully functioning FIELD OPS on the fire… which did nothing but add to the confusion that day.
So that would have been circa 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM.
We know that Musser was ‘done’ with the Sickles Ranch Road work just prior to 3:42 PM when he made his ‘availability check’ radio call out to DIVSA Eric Marsh.
Musser had either just arrived at SPGS1 Gary Codes’ position on the side of Highway 89 near Shrine Road when he made that 3:42 PM ‘availability’ check… OR he was making that call in his vehicle just BEFORE arriving at Cordes’ location.
All of that puts some/all of the Price Valley Helitack in Yarnell and helping with structure protection in the Sickles Ranch Road area at around 3:00 PM to 3:30 PM.
What is still most interesting about these (supposedly) ELEVEN Price Valley Helitack guys is not even so much that they seem to be just more people that Arizona Forestry was making it difficult to even know were IN Yarnell that day… but that Price Valley Helitack’s OWN annual report of their activities ALSO seems to be going out of its way to pretend that ‘Price Valley Helitack’ wasn’t even THERE in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Why would a proud organization with a long and distinguished history that also LOVES to ‘talk’ about everything they are engaged in be making some concerted effort to HIDE the fact that they were participating in the Yarnell Hill Fire?
It may be ( and will remain ) one of the most ‘historic’ fires this famous outfit has ever participated in… but whoever publishes their activity reports seems to want to try and keep it a secret that they were even THERE that day.
Very strange.
Very simple they along with all FS employees have been ordered not to talk or release any info about there Yarnell assignment. These orders are a reality with in the Federal employee ranks like it or not.
You are probably right… but it’s still very odd that you would use words like ORDERS and RANKS with regards to simple employees of a Government Civil Agency.
Despite what a lot of people in the US Forestry Department would LIKE to think… it is NOT the ‘military’.
Never has been. Probably never will be.
It is just another taxpayer-funded Civil Agency that simply EMPLOYS people to do a job.
Period. End of story.
There might be things you could do to LOSE that taxpayer funded civil service job… but no one is ever going to end up with an extended vacation in Leavenworth, Kansas just because they refused to do what someone higher up than they are in the US Forestry Service was trying to TELL them to do.
I really would love it if even just ONE of these Price Valley Helitack guys ( or, indeed, anyone other USFS employee being ‘gagged’ ) would wake up and realize that the US Forestry service does not OWN them… and cannot really ever tell them who they are allowed to talk to about what.
If they decided that THEY really just wanted to tell their OWN story about what they saw, heard or witnessed on June 30, 2013 ( to people of their own choosing )… and they happened to then ‘lose their civil service job’ as a direct result of exercising their own rights to free speech…
…I would also LOVE to see that worked in court.
There are even specific laws ALREADY on the books about such things that say you CANNOT be punished like that ( even by your employer ) for exercising your rights to free speech.
It would be a REALLY interesting legal case if the US Forestry service tried to fire someone for simply talking about something THEY didn’t want them to talk about.
As a Federal employee you take an oath, as a Federal employee you are subject to certain requirements of the job. You also have a background check and are fingerprinted. Unless you commit an illegal act you can not go to jail but your job is subject to the will and direction of your supervisors. Violate direct written orders concerning your on duty actions or knowledge of work information you are ordered not to talk about and you can and will loose your job. Once you are no longer an employee or no longer want to go back to work as in seasonal you are free to say what you want.
I used ranks as in employees not rank as military, within the group.
Although in 33 years I was never asked to not speak or be Gaged as is happening with this legal actions. Those not involved with the fire can say what they want. Those involved are subject to some legal requirements by Federal Supervisors and Lawyers until the case is litigated. .
**
** MORE ‘THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS’ CROSSFADES
**
** THE FIRST FOUR VIDEO CLIPS SHOT BY ABC15 HELICOPTER ‘AIR15’
>> On October 19, 2014 at 6:19 pm, Marti Reed wrote…
>>
>> On June 30, 2013, ABC15, out of Phoenix published an extended version
>> of the video captured over the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s the Air15 airplane.
>> That’s a lot of the footage that was used by media in a lot of their
>> reports subsequently.
Yes. That ‘raw footage’ of theirs shot between 3:59 PM and 4:39 PM over the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013, was uploaded to their own YouTube channel the night of the tragedy itself.
That original ABC15 Helicopter footage has always been right here…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jx_ZUKfjcc
There are 31 different video clips in that Air15 raw footage.
I’ve been working on all 31 of these clips for a while now and I am currently able to identify the exact ground locations for almost ALL of them.
Putting exact GROUND LOCATIONS on all of these Air15 clips has been difficult, but as it turns out, there is actually a ‘pattern’ to them that helps to identify the actual ground locations.
That raw footage loop that ABC15 uploaded to YouTube seems to retain the ‘sequential’ order in which Air15 shot the clips in the time it spent over the Yarnell Fire.
They also followed the standard videographer practice of first getting ‘wide shots’, then ‘medium shots’, then ‘close shots’ so the news station can ‘pick and chose’ the clips better for airtime. That means that even in the ‘close shots’… it is possible to refer to the clips just PRIOR to them and see a ‘wider view’ in order to identify where the flames really are on the ground in the ‘closer’ shots.
In most of the clips… there also actually ARE some identifiable ground landmarks that also help to pinpoint the locations. Some of this took a lot of video enhancement… but there are usually enough ground features in all of the clips to be 99 percent sure what the ground location actually is.
Putting exact TIMES on all of these Air15 video clips remains problematic, but some of them are obvious and easily time-stamped.
NOTE: TV station ABC 15 probably still has all the actual ORIGINAL footage that was used to even create that ‘raw footage’ composite video they uploaded to Youtube, and that actual ORIGINAL footage probably does have exact timestamps embedded in all the digital clips.
Some video clips include identifiable VLAT drops. Some have fireline locations that match other external photographs exactly, etc.
The ‘sequential’ nature of the raw footage also helps to nail down some of the TIMES for these clips. Air15 was over Yarnell for a known span of time.
It asked for clearance from Thomas French in ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 33 over the VHF Air-To-Air channel at exactly 3:59 PM that day… and it then left the Yarnell area DURING the actual MAYDAY traffic coming from Granite Mountain at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ).
So Air15 was only actually filming over the Yarnell area for 40 minutes from 3:59 PM top 4:39 PM.
All 31 clips in their ‘raw footage’ loop are ‘sequential’ and fit into that 40 minute time range with the first clips being right after they were given clearance and the later clips being very close to the time of deployment.
** Here is the ABC15 ‘Air 15′ News Chopper ARRIVING at the Yarnell fire
** and asking Thomas French in Bravo 33 ( Air Attack ) for clearance to
** enter the area and start filming…
From Panebaker 20130630_1628_EP video…
———————————————————————————-
MEDIA CHOPPER ‘AIR 15′ ASSOCIATED WITH
ABC 15 ( KNXV – PHOENIX ) ARRIVES ON THE FIRE
REGISTRATION NUMBER: N915HD
———————————————————————————-
NOTE: We can only hear French’s side of this
conversation with the ‘Air 15′ chopper requesting
permission/clearance to fly the fire.
———————————————————————————
N915HD
2002 EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2 Rotorcraft
(6 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: US HELICOPTERS INC., MARSHVILLE, NC
(Corporation)
Serial Number: 3583
———————————————————————————-
+11:30 ( 1559.28 / 3:59.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… and that’s niner one five hotel delta? Is that correct?
+11:35 ( 1559.33 / 3:59.33 PM )
(B33 – French): Will nine thousand five hundred work for ya?
+11:42 ( 1559.40 / 3:59.40 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, uh… five hotel delta… you’re cleared in niner thousand five hundred, two nine eight zero on the altimeter. You’re cleared… uh… to go wherever you need to at nine point five. If you need anything else you let us know, okay? The call sign is Bravo 33.
+11:59 ( 1559.57 / 3:59.57 PM )
(B33 – French): Was there another media ship out there?
+12:05 ( 1600.03 / 4:00.03 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, copy that… so that was… uh… news… you’re the News 15 callin’… okay… thanks a lot.
———————————————————————————————
END OF ABC15 ‘AIR 15′ CHOPPER CHECK-IN TO THE FIRE
———————————————————————————————
As soon as Air15 obtained this ‘clearance’ from Thomas French to enter the area… they started filming.
Air15 was coming from Phoenix and approaching the fire from the SOUTH, so the first set of clips in their raw footage are actually showing what the fire looked liked at 4:00 PM from the SOUTH of Yarnell and looking to the NORTH across that ‘middle bowl’.
In the very first video clip… they are actually shooting OVER the box canyon itself and showing the fireline as it was just 5 minutes after Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos. The fireline has now overtaken Brendan McDonough’s Lookout Mound and the EAST side of the fire ( on the RIGHT in the video clip ) is moving fast into the Harper Canyon / Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
The first FOUR Air15 video clips basically show the same thing Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos show, but from a wider perspective.
The fire was BURNING both SOUTH and EAST at this point ( at ground level ) but the SMOKE column was still ‘turning around’ and appears to be blowing mostly to the EAST as it was still in the process of ‘coming around’ 180 degrees and there were still different ‘winds’ in place at ground level versus above the fire itself.
In the very first Air15 video clip… the north side of the box canyon itself is seen in the lower left corner of the video before the footage ZOOMS in to the fireline over near Harper Canyon.
In the next FOUR replies to this message there will be LINKS to actual ‘through the looking glass’ CROSSFADES for the first FOUR Air15 video clips.
Each one will first show the short ABC15 Helicopter video clip ( sometimes repeating )… and then it will FREEZE on a frame from the video and do a slow CROSSFADE into the actual equivalent Google Earth ground location image.
The clips will then either ‘pan back’ or ‘pan around’ ( or both ) showing the exact ground location as it relates to the entire fire area.
I will be publishing as many of these ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades for ALL of these Air15 fire footage clips as time permits.
I am taking ‘extra time’ with some of the ‘through the looking glass’ crossfades for some of the clips near the end of the footage because I want to be absolutely sure I am getting the ground locations correct.
Some people might find the actual ground locations for some of the clips at the end of the Air15 helicopter footage to be a little disturbing given the fact that the Air15 helicopter was shooting the fire as it was on the ground at the exact moment Captain Jesse Steed was making his first MAYDAY call from the box canyon.
As far as whether this Air15 footage proves whether the SAIT got the fireline progressions and timeframes right or wrong… the answer is… sometimes YES…. sometimes NO.
The Air15 footage proves there really never was any kind of ‘straight’ west-to-east fireline moving through that middle bowl as depicted in the official SAIT fire progression charts.
There were ALWAYS a number of ‘fingers’… some burning SOUTH faster than others.
One of those ‘fingers’ is what reached the mouth of the box canyon first and then proceeded to ‘ignite’ the entire canyon.
The next FOUR replies are the first FOUR Air15 video clips with CROSSFADES…
ABC15-clip-01-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fmz6HpmzXEs
It is exactly 3:59 PM and Air15 has just obtained clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33 ( Air Attack ) to enter the area and begin filming. Air15 approached Yarnell from Phoenix and this first clip shows the fire as it looked from the SOUTH and looking OVER the box canyon itself. The north side of the box canyon is visible at the start of the video clip in the lower left corner of the video frame.
The fireline matches what is also seen in all of Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and videos taken just 4-8 minutes earlier from out on the western ridge and looking back EAST, but the fire has progressed farther than in Christopher’s images.
ABC15-clip-02-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZVjGY-hSlX8
After approaching the area from Phoenix and obtaining clearance, Air15 then proceeded NORTH at its assigned altitude of 9,500 feet and flew up along the WEST side of the area.
This second clip was taken looking NORTHEAST into that entire ‘bowl’ between the Weaver Mountain Ridge and Highway 89 off to the EAST.
Air15 had just flown past the ‘anchor point’ area where Granite Mountain was still assembled and about to start their hike to the SOUTH.
Granite Mountain is NOT visible in this video clip…
… but if this video clip had started just a little earlier OR they had ‘panned’ just a little farther to the SOUTH ( to their right in the video ), we probably would actually SEE Granite Mountain down there already assembling on the two-track for their hike towards the box canyon.
ABC15-clip-03-crossfade
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zq9JzreI6-E
Air15 has proceeded just a little farther NORTH from Clip 02 and is now filming the same ground location as Clip 02 but the view is little more to the SOUTHEAST and back towards Yarnell.
Again… Granite Mountain is NOT actually visible in this video clip… but if the camera had been panned just a little farther SOUTH ( to the RIGHT in the video ) we might actually have been able to see them assembling on the two-track for their hike SOUTH to the box canyon at this point.
ABC15-clip-04-crossfade
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Cj3ErMUl4c
Air15 has now flown BACK to the SOUTH side of the fire and is again filming the same fireline as seen in Clip 01 from the SOUTH.
The fire has advanced to BOTH the SOUTH and EAST in relation to what was seen just a few minutes earlier in their Clip 01.
This time… they have ZOOMED in to the fireline ( closer than they did in their Clip 01 ) as it encroaches on the west end of Harper Canyon and the Shrine Road Youth Camp area. This is still about 20 minutes before most of the firefighters working in both the Harper Canyon and Youth Camp areas would evacuate.
Nice work very easy to see what happened and how fast it occurred.
Thank you A LOT for doing this!
More to come. I’m just trying to be absolutely sure about the later clips because some people might find a few of them a little disturbing.
I also haven’t forgotten your suggestion about some ‘mapping’ on those retardant drop photos. Those are getting done as well. As it turns out… the 1633 SEAT drop was, in fact, much farther north along Hwy 89 and almost ‘outside of town’ rather than anywhere near the Glen Ilah area. It is now back to ‘highly unlikely’ that Eric Marsh could have seen this 1633 SEAT drop from anywhere out in the box canyon.
Thanks!
Did AZ Fire Dispatch or any other local dispatch record the fire radio traffic?
On the Sawtooth NF our dispatch recorded the fire and Dispatch traffic rather than hand record every thing we then put the tapes in the fire file with all the other fire info orders etc.
I do not know if that is still being done but some form of recording should be. The Fire Dispatch got set up so late on the Yarnell fire, they may not have been recording at the main radio dispatch 0n the 30th.
What we have herd has been from the cameras that were next to Radios, not actual taped recordings, some may exist though that have not been discussed or released. Primary tack 1 should have been recorded
Were the 911 tapes at the AZ Fire Dispatch or a 911 dispatch?
Makes a difference on what was recorded.
I came to the library to email and Sonny is reading investigative media. Bob Powers, in reading Cliff DuPuy, a 48 year old dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department who alerted many neighbors on his own about the fire and evacuation him as well as others including the volunteer firefighter Dr. Leroy Anderson…they have a top ten ? list and number ten is
10) WHY (after the evacuation of Yarnell) did Maggie tell others (while staying in Wickenburg) that she could not wait to get back home and TEAR UP her dispatch notes (eye witness to dispatch notes was Cliff Dupuy)….
If any of you can answer that as well as their other questions…I can send them here to read your answers.
1) Why was no one sent to the Microwave Tower Hill to act as a spotter and reporter?
Joy’s reply: I think I have seen enough time stamped photos from that area from the homeowners to know someone was at that point so it was not an empty sat area and their is documents out there and one for sure was from Jerry F.
I think our concern should lay as to EXACT time lightning strike was acknowledged because Laura C is the only one left with footage PROVEN that there was a yellow and white quad with tools BEFORE the actual reported time of fire and Cindy Dahl’s footage was time stamp was at 5:13-5:17 all the way into after 9pm and yet NO MENTION of this in any SAIR or any investigative reports. Also the exact PROVEN time that 320 acres was put into action to be state land restricted and for how long is it to be restricted? Why is there no mention that the restriction is lifted yet rumored as such that it is—That can be answered by Paxon I would assume or State officials.
2) Why didn’t Ryan Gardner take E-402 (4wheel drive) to search for the fire?
Joy’s reply: I do not know who he is or the answer.
3) Why wasn’t civilian resources tapped for help?
Joy’s reply: Only the ones who truly had the authority on this fire are the ones that can answer that.
4) Why was Chief Koile not on scene Friday?
Joy’s reply: ask him direct.
5) What was Bob Burkhardt doing? he knew about the dirt roads that led right to the fire.
Joy’s reply: ask him direct.
okay so as I am reading the questions and I said I would post them but as I write this out it seems this is not nation wide questions but question that should be answered directly by the ones you are asking the questions about—I am intrigued by the timeline of critical events as I have learned from all you homeowners and thank you for sharing but again I will say it again…share it with a VOICE publicly…I think some of you could change the whole course of how this fire is being assessed. The recent news so we do not seem like we are beginning to hide because others want privacy, YES, officials and loved one of GMHS have spoken to us in regards to new information/video and we feel we DO NOT want any information unless we can share about it so I reckon that is why we know so little on the new information and that is fine by us. I am just hoping the new information is real, raw and unedited is all…not some creation. Yes, we have not denied hikes and yet in the hikes we also are not ones to sign any confidentiality on we did not hike you because this all is about reaching clarity—simple as that. I will not be remembered for hiding information. We share it as we get it even if someone’s name is not publicized…it is important to us to let everyone know as it unfolds who comes to us in regards to the fire—some have stated they have not taken the hike with us for that exact reason but that’s fine with us-
I just wanted to point out to Bob Powers the names we heard about in regards to the dispatchers-
maybe they can help you. I will let them know you are writing about dispatchers—
On August 18, 2013, AODSH interviewed
Norval Tyler of the Arizona State Forestry Dispatch Center.
Pretty much the very FIRST thing they asked him was if the AZF Dispatch
Center had the ability to RECORD radio traffic.
Norvall Tyler said YES.
He said that traffic in Yarnell for June 29 and the Initial Attack
WAS recorded at the ‘Dispatch Center’… but then he says that
the traffic for June 30 itself was NOT.
Something about the moment Roy Hall took over… they stopped
recording, or something?
I’m really not that sure what Tyler is saying here.
Notice also ( below ) that he seems to suggest that even though
they stopped recording SOME traffic on June 30… they were STILL
recording the AIR traffic ( Both VHF Air-To-Air and UHF Air-To-Ground? )
From ADOSH’s interview…
Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg – Lead ADOSH Investigator
A = Norval Tyler
———————————————————————-
43 Q2: Norval I-I – how is — how is the communication center working, currently?
44
45 A: How is it currently working? In what aspect?
46
47 Q2: Are all the features and functions that, uh, are intended to be functioning
48 functioning as they should?
49
50 A: They are, yes.
51
52 Q2: Um, have there been any, uh, communication problems in the last, uh, year
53 maybe that, that’s been problematic at the Deer Valley Center?
54
55 A: Nothing with the hardware that’s in place at Deer Valley.
56
57 Q2: Um, does, uh, d- do you have the ability to, uh, record audio?
58
59 A: We do.
60
61 Q2: And has that always – was that in place in June?
62
63 A: There are audio recording capabilities on our – not on all our consoles, but
64 they – there are on three-quarters of the consoles in there.
65
66 Q2: Um, was any of the audio associated with the Yarnell Hill fire recorded?
67
68 A: Prior to the 30th, yes. After when the team took it, no. Because they were
69 going direct. So they were on a direct communication line not shooting
70 through a repeater to us. So during initial attack phase prior to the 30th when
71 the team took over we were directing communication with the incident, the
72 incident commander. Once they transitioned at 1000 hours to the team they
73 go direct communication. And we’re not involved any more except for with
74 aircraft.
———————————————————————-
Something very very fishy here…………
The Air craft would have been on 1 desk with dispatcher and recording that traffic.
There should have been a dispatch assigned to the fire and monitoring the radio traffic, for Fire ordering of equipment supplies and for the weather forecasts.
including ordering additional air craft. that person would also take phone calls from the fire on orders which would have included the full type 2 and 1 teams.
Something dose not fit what normally happens here………
Something else that ‘doesn’t fit’ here is Tyler trying to say that a ‘repeater’ had anything to do with their ability to record.
He says the traffic from June 29 WAS being recorded… but June 30 was NOT because (quote) “they were on a direct line and not shooting through a repeater to us.”
Well… no one was “shooting through a repeater” on August 29, either… yet he admits they were still able to record traffic on the 29th.
As I understand it… the full ‘Type 1’ como hardware like repeaters and stuff didn’t even get fired up in Yarnell until July 1, the day AFTER the tragedy.
Also… the SAME FREQUENCIES ( TAC, A2G, etc. ) that were in use on August 29 in the Yarnell area were ALSO the ones being used on June 30.
It was a standard set of command/control frequencies assigned to the Arizona Forestry Division and they were NOT changed between June 29 and June 30.
So I don’t know what he means by “once they go direct we aren’t involved ( or recording anything? ) anymore”.
How/why is that any different from what was happening on the 29th when he admits they WERE ‘recording audio’.?
Astoundingly… that really is the ‘end of it’ in the ADOSH interview with Norval Tyler. There weren’t even any FOLLOWUP questions from ADOSH lead investigator Marshall Krotenberg.
As soon as Norval Tyler said “And we’re not involved any more except for with aircraft”… Krotenberg just ‘moved on’ with the interview and never even asked him what that really MEANT.
Tyler also confirmed that the Arizona Dispatch Center does, in fact, rely on the latest/greatest AFF technolgy.
AFF is ‘Automatic Flight Following’.
That’s the stuff that lets them have big consoles that show the EXACT location of pretty much any aircraft they are dealing with.
Tyler did ‘qualify’ their use of AFF saying that you NEVER totally rely on it and the ONLY sure thing is direct communication with the aircraft themselves and he said their protocol requires those constant ‘direct’ updates from the aircraft via radio.
So that tends to suggest they ARE constantly ‘recording’ this radio traffic.
At the very least here… WHERE are the ‘recordings’ and/or transcripts of the recordings that he SAYS were being made on June 29 itself?
The only thing Direct could mean is they set up a seperiate center (office) to handle the Yarnell Fire on the Tac Channels and possibly by Phone.
Most agencies try to get the fire off normal channels so regular traffic can continue as the fire takes up a lot of radio time.
I did not think they had mush set up on the 30th as far as a true camp radios etc. but they did switch to Tac channels so maybe that is what is being referred to as direct.
The VHF or air channels would have continued recording which asks the questions was the Air traffic recorded with GM’s radio traffic on Air To Ground?
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 24, 2014 at 7:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The only thing Direct could mean is they set up a
>> seperiate center (office) to handle the Yarnell Fire
>> on the Tac Channels and possibly by Phone.
Sometime on Sunday morning, June 30, 2013… around 6:11 AM… someone realized that Roy Hall had also forgotten to order a COMS officer for Yarnell to be part of the Type 2 short team. So that is when someone first ‘ordered’ a COMS officer for Yarnell.
His name was Clarence McMillan.
He was SUPER qualified for this
He was/is the Radio Communications Manager at AZ Department of Corrections
He wasn’t actually ‘ordered’ until Sunday morning around 6:11 AM ( according to official Resource Ordering records for Yarnell ).
His estimated time of arrival in Yarnell ( in the ROSS system itself ) was 11:30 AM Sunday but there is no evidence he actually got there at that time.
The photo linked to below was taken at 2:48 PM is the first evidence he was ever there at all.
Clarence Williams has (apparently) NEVER been interviewed by anyone is also (apparently) NEVER mentioned by ANYONE in any of either the SAIT or ADOSH interviews. Like he was never there ( but now we can see that he WAS there ).
The following is photographic evidence of him ( and his truck ) being there at the ICP circa 2:48 PM that day. He wasn’t doing much. For the next half-hour all he appeared to be doing was standing there by his vehicle and talking on his cellphone.
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-IMG_20130630_144838_008.jpg
This photo was taken with a Network Connected ‘Motorola Droid 4′ so the timestamp of 14:48:37 ( 2:48.37 PM ) can be assumed to be accurate.
So if McMillan didn’t even get there until 2:00 PM or later… then he was already ‘obsolete’ by the time he arrived because of the decision to ‘ramp up’ to a Type 1 Incident Management Team.
Just like the confusion with trying to ‘ramp up’ from the SHORT team WHILE they were still trying to get organized on Sunday and fight the fire… people were already ‘obsolete’ by the time they even arrived in Yarnell ( Bea Day’s OPS people Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC’ Bucky’ Yowell, COMS person McMillan, etc. ).
So even if McMillan had all the right ‘hardware’ with him to set up some local repeaters… there is no evidence he ever attempted to do so at any time on Sunday.
Two days after the tragedy… there was a general AAR ( After Action Review ) held just amongst the OPS people that had been fighting the fire since the previous Sunday.
Even amongst THEMSELVES… the ‘fire commanders’ who were in Yarnell agreed that the lack of ‘repeaters’ being set up for Sunday contributed to the ‘problems’.
So that’s pretty much just one more piece of proof that there were NO ‘repeaters’ set up in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
From the AZCENTRAL article that first mentioned this AAR that took place in Yarnell…
—————————————-
Two days after the tragedy, during a review meeting, fire commanders acknowledged problems but also supported one another’s work, according to State Forestry Division records. They described the lack of a safety officer as a “significant void in the command staff.” One official also recommended the use of portable radio repeaters to eliminate communication problems, while another cited the transmission issues as a safety concern.
——————————————–
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Most agencies try to get the fire off normal channels
>> so regular traffic can continue as the fire takes up a
>> lot of radio time.
>>
>> I did not think they had mush set up on the 30th as far
>> as a true camp radios etc.
See above. Even though COMS Officer McMillan DID end up arriving in Yarnell early afternoon… there is no evidence he ever did anything at all once arriving. He was also never interviewed.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> but they did switch to Tac channels so maybe that is
>> what is being referred to as direct.
Maybe so.
It’s hard to know exactly what the Arizona Dispatch Center was really able to do, or not. The ADOSH investigators really didn’t pursue the questioning of Norval Tyler well enough to get the real scoop on that.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The VHF or air channels would have continued recording
>> which asks the questions was the Air traffic recorded
>> with GM’s radio traffic on Air To Ground?
Again… we don’t know the ranges or the capabilities of the equipment itself so it’s hard to ‘guess’ about it.
As I understand it… a BK radio is only good for about 3-5 miles.
As for ‘intercepting’ and/or ‘recording’ anything that is coming over a UHF Air-To-Ground channel back at the dispatch center in Phoenix… it’s also hard to say.
I with ADOSH had at least cleared up with Norval Tyler what Arizona Dispatch was ABLE to record, or not record.
Maybe there really ARE full recordings of ALL the Air-To-Ground radio traffic from Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
Followup…
Here is a direct link to that AZCENTRAL article quoted above where the fire commanders from Yarnell itself even admitted amongst themselves that NOT having ‘repeaters’ set up in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013 was one of the things that contributed greatly to the ‘confusion’ and (perhaps) the fatal accident itself…
AZCENTRAL
Article Title: Yarnell Fire Response Riddled With Issues
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20131206yarnell-fire-response-report-issues.html
The link above to the photo of ‘COMS Unit Leader’ Clarence McMillan standing next to his truck in Yarnell appears to not work. This should work…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACltJPUFfvmZqibRwGSJwWLa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ASFD%20Photos/Miscellaneous%20Photos#lh:null-IMG_20130630_150050_919.jpg
Interesting so I am back to direct as in telephone. Or a bunch of BS from
AZ Fire Dispatch.
Which if true means they could have held back a lot of taped information
at least it is highly questionable.
Okay… even that ‘alternate’ link above ( which is exactly what is in the Browser address bar when the Dropbox photo of Clarence McMillan is showing ) isn’t ‘cutting the cake’. You still end up just ‘stuck’ on the ‘Miscellaneous Photos’ folder and it doesn’t actually load the photo.
Trying again just one more time.
This is a direct link to the ORIGINAL ( full size ) photo in the online Dropbox that shows CUL ( COMS Unit Leader ) Clarence McMillan just standing by his truck ( in the left foreground ) with a black ball cap and a bottle of water in his hand circa 2:48 PM on June 30, 2013…
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/content_link/VdRcthET8a3I0uMP5kGpxJud8iG495NGwYa0pkj1c4hCcnmN9F2rAt9Tv3taDdbA
Eye Witness Cliff DuPuy, 48yo dispatcher with the Yarnell Fire Department has many troubling questions to that weekend and one public question was HOW COME (after the evacuation of Yarnell) did Maggie Edmands (YFD dispatcher) tell others (while staying in Wickenburg) that she could not wait to get back to Yarnell to tear up her dispatch notes who Cliff eye-witnessed those notes. HOW COME the SAIR never mention that in their report. I have posted here a 1/2 dozen times as I learned stuff and it always said IN MODERATION to never seeing it posted and I have alot going on right now to rewrite it all but there is something odd going on…my gut is usually right…and I answered any questions and Sonny too but never saw it posted here…but try again…If you have a question just re-ask it so I do not have to skim again…just very short on pc time. All I can say to the SAIR folks THE FUTURE never gives up nor do I…I will keep hiking folks…and now we will follow county laws but we do have 2 rv setups on the property and by law you cannot rent out the rv hookup areas but since we have tiny cabin ANY overflow of guests can remain there and the max is 90 calendar days for the guests so if there is anyone still heading to Yarnell to investigate it we can see if we have the time/dates open for you to roll on in…you can even tent it there…email for more on that topic…Now, as for our time for hikes just know we are pretty tight for the month of November. John MacLean is due out in a few days and we have the mayor soon and his folks…we have the tv show and 4 movie producers and the person who talks to the dead and maybe the lawyers- Knapp said soon. So just pop in and ask to see when/if we can hike with you. I know some locally want to hike soon. Again, friendly reminder that alot of the area you hike is on state land so make sure to have your state land permit on you. The chances anyone is going to stop you and ask for it—well in 10 years twice for me and that is with me out there ALOT…almost all the time. Everyone Happy Halloween! Be off the rest of the week and check back next Sunday…
Thanks to JOY it is confirmed that the Head Cam Video is or has been shown in Prescott to Family and others hopefully they will be talking about it as most things tend to get out. The News media should be all over this so we are still in a holding pattern. But we have more conformation.
Yes, we met and spoke to certain influential people at the fence event that did not want their names mentioned that said they had new information that provided the possibility of settlement discussions. Of course if this happens we will likely never get all the evidence that would of been and should come out. You can bet the state and other parties involved will require a silence order if they settle. I wonder if it is like a local man Buford says that certain officials are allowing these fires to gain momentum because there is not much money being made putting them out with 2-3 people early on vs calling in the big money which runs into millions.
Thanks WTKTT and Bob Powers for the info/hedzup/convo regarding the HelmetCam video.
I agree with WTKTT that it would make sense for Aaron Hulburd to have turned his helmetcam on for the search. We still don’t know what kind of helmetcam he was using, or whether it was capable of really-really low-light capture.
I’ve been following the events in Ferguson/SaintLouis pretty closely. There’s quite a bit of video-streaming via iphones that you can switch to do that kind of night-video that we see on the photos from the Boulder Springs Ranch security camera (and I agree totally that they most likely had more than one security camera on and running). I don’t know if Aaron’s helmetcam was capable of doing that.
But even if it wasn’t, if I were Aaron, I still would have switched my helmetcam on during the search, since there is software that is capable of fixing a lot of exposure problems (including Lightroom, which I use to do just that) and Photoshop.
And speaking of “missing” “evidence.”
I spent parts of the past few days scouring videos on the internet, trying to find any other versions of that “showing the click-on-button video of the ‘last minutes radio calls’ video” that WildfireDotCom posted to their website. I didn’t find any, so it seems plausible that WildfireDotCom took that video (which a LOT of other media outlets were publishing in various ways) and screencaptured it the way (for speed) WTKTT is saying.
As I was scouring videos I found some other interesting things. I was looking for stuff that was being “published” that had footage I hadn’t seen before.
I found two things that were troublesome and one thing that was interesting.
I’ll post them, with their links below.
Under the “troublesome” category:
On August 29, AZCentral published a report, with audio footage, called “Yarnell Hill Fire 911 calls released by authorities” by Joe Dana.
“Emergency calls made by homeowners in the Yarnell area showed concern, confusion and compassion as the Yarnell Hill Fire broke fire lines June 30 and headed for the small community, according to recordings released this week by the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office.”
I haven’t seen anywhere, in any public releases, including that which we have access to via this site, that footage, which I would really like to listen to, all things considered.
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130828yarnell-hill-fire-911-calls-released.html
Under the “interesting” category:
On June 30, 2013, ABC15, out of Phoenix published an extended version of the video captured over the Yarnell Hill Fire. That’s the Air15 airplane. That’s a lot of the footage that was used by media in a lot of their reports subsequently.
http://www.abc15.com/news/region-northern-az/other/yarnell-hill-fire-flames-consume-wilderness-near-arizona-town-video
There are 31 different video clips in that Air15 raw footage. I’ve been able to identify the exact ground locations for more than half of them.
More about all that coming soon.
Followup… Air15 came from Phoenix and approached Yarnell from the SOUTH that afternoon. They started filming as soon as they obtained clearance from Thomas French in Bravo 33, so those first few video clips are actually looking at the fire line from the SOUTH and were shot looking OVER the box canyon itself. The timeframe matches the 3:50 PM Mackenzie photos.
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 19, 2014 at 6:01 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Under the “troublesome” category:
>>
>> On August 29, AZCentral published a report, with audio
>> footage, called “Yarnell Hill Fire 911 calls released by
>> authorities” by Joe Dana.
>>
>> I haven’t seen anywhere, in any public releases, including
>> that which we have access to via this site, that footage,
>> which I would really like to listen to, all things considered.
The only actual 911 recordings I think anyone has ever really heard are the ones that are actually IN the video that accompanies the same AZCENTRAL online report that you have linked to above…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130828yarnell-hill-fire-911-calls-released.html
They have an audio recording of pretty much everything mentioned in the article itself… but it’s a small sampling and they were only picking the ones that THEY throught were ‘interesting’.
In the video that accompanies that article there’s also an interesting VIDEO clip at +1:32. At first glance… it APPEARS to actually be a shot of the Blue Ridge Chase Truck towing the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger and going around a security checkpoint.
It *might* be… but it’s pretty hard to tell ( no license plate is readable ).
It is, in fact, an aquamarine green/blue pickup the same color as Blue Ridge vehicles towing a trailer and a Polaris Ranger… but it’s hard to verify if it is the exact same Polaris Ranger Blue Ridge owned as shown in other photos like that one in BR Hotshot Desoto’s folder.
If that really is the BR Chase truck plus Polaris Ranger… I would imagine the TIME on that video clip had to be in the morning when they were moving from the ICP in Model Creek down to their next staging area at the Yarnell Fire Station.
10 seconds later in the same video linked to above ( at +1:42 ) there is another aquamarine ‘support’ truck seen passing the same checkpoint.
It is ALMOST identical to the other Blue Ridge support truck. Same make, model, color and configuration right down to the black metal ‘catch’ cages running along the side storage areas… but it’s not the same YEAR as the Blue Ridge support truck. This one has ’rounded’ back wheel flanges whereas the Blue Ridge support truck as seen in Papich image IMG_3949 has more ‘square top’ back wheel flanges.
Not sure which truck this one actually is or exactly what time it is.
Still looks like in the morning based on the ‘light’ in the video clip.
And on July 11, 2013, AZCentral published a report, with audio footage, called “Frantic moments of deadly Yarnell fire captured on radio logs” by Yvonne Wingett Sanchez.
“Radio-transmission logs released Thursday show that wildfire officials mobilized to treat potential survivors of a June 30 burn-over that took the lives of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots caught in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
A dispatcher for the Arizona State Forestry Division called Arizona Department of Public Safety dispatchers just before 5 p.m. the day the firefighters died, asking the police agency to put a medevac helicopter on standby for the fire. The forestry dispatcher did not say why, and a DPS dispatcher noted that one of the agency’s choppers already was acting as air support for the fire.”
Again, I have never seen those logs/tapes anywhere.
Has anybody else heard/seen them (especially the tapes)?
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130711arizona-firefighters-killed-fire-radio-logs.html
These MIGHT be the transcripts of the Arizona DPS radio logs released July 11, 2013 that are referred to in the article up above…
http://ftpcontent.worldnow.com/kpho/KPHO%20NEWS/HOTSHOT%20CREW%20DPS%20reports.pdf
They are also the ones that show that at 6:48 AM the morning after the tragedy… there were already several media choppers hovering over the deployment site and the DPS offices were freaking out. There is a LOT of radio traffic there reporting this to their Dispatch and the officers were asking for an IMMEDIATE ‘higher altitude’ for the no fly zone because they were afraid the media were getting shots of what was happening on the ground.
The ARTICLE that actually contains the LINK to the DPS Radio Logs posted above is the following…
CBS5 – KPHO – Yarnell Hill Fire
Planes Called Just Before Fire Deaths
http://www.kpho.com/story/22829442/yarnell-hill-fire-planes-called-just-before-fire-deaths
Marti… just a quick reply regarding something you said up above.
It is also perfectly possible the Wildfire Today people felt the need to do that ‘screen capture’ move because of SIZE considerations.
If whatever they were given by Arizona Forestry was actually in the AVI movie format… then it would have been HUGE, size-wise, and too big for a YouTube upload.
So maybe that screen capture move was just someone’s idea of a quick way to get that clip reduced to a size/speed compatible with a YouTube.
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 19, 2014 at 5:51 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> I agree with WTKTT that it would make sense for Aaron Hulburd to
>> have turned his helmetcam on for the search.
His ‘fulltime’ job was/is a ‘Fuels Specialist for Prescott National Forest’.
Forget the fact that he was on an important ‘rescue mission’ that anyone with a
Helmet-Cam on might feel the need to ‘document’.
I could easily believe he would still have probably wanted to capture some footage of what was happening in the area because of his actual ‘job title’ and career interest.
It’s not every day you ‘break through a fireline’ like he and Frisby and Brown and Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell did that day and ascend a high ridge to see a historic, active fire from that perspective.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> We still don’t know what kind of helmetcam he was using, or whether it was capable
>> of really-really low-light capture.
That’s true…
But it didn’t even start to get dark until well into the ‘search mission’ and sometime AFTER the deployment site was found, taped, and ‘walked’ by any number of people… Aaron Hulburd included.
Even that DPS ‘Captain’ who hitched a ride on Ranger 58’s return trip after refueling was able to take BOTH photographs AND video of the deployment site with a simple iPhone from a short hovering distance above the deployment site before low light became any kind of issue.
No one has ever seen those photos or THAT video, either.
Followup to the post directly above…
It actually didn’t start to get dark until DPS medic Eric Tarr, Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, IWI Commander Todd Abel and two other ‘Incident within an Incident’ commanders left the Boulder Springs Ranch where they had all met up and walked back WEST ( all together ) to the deployment site.
Eric Tarr puts the TIME of this ‘beginning to get dark’ at 1929 ( 7:29 PM )
From Eric Tarr’s signed deposition…
—————————————–
As darkness was approaching I hiked back to the scene with the
original Firefighters and the 3 Command Firefighters. This was at
approximately 1929 hours. I took marking tape from them
and finished taping off the south half of the scene. The Command
Officer ( Todd Abel? ) asked me to confirm my count of 19 since
his roster was only showing 18 names. I went back INTO the scene
that I had (already) taped off and confirmed my count of 19 deceased
Firefighters and 19 deployed shelters. The 3 Command Officers ( Todd
Abel and two others ) followed me in and also confirmed the count of 19.
—————————————–
The very next paragraph of DPS Medic Eric Tarr’s signed
deposition then says this…
—————————————–
WHILE I was taping off the south side of the scene, Ranger 58 arrived
back over the scene and advised me they had a Yavapai County Sheriff
Deputy on board and were taking aerial photographs of the scene. I
relayed this information to the Command Officers ( Todd Able
plus two others ).
—————————————–
So even after hiking BACK to the deployment site and then starting to ‘tape off the south side of the scene’… there was still enough daylight for that YCSO Deputy to be taking ‘aerial photos/videos’ of the scene.
So during all this time ( and at any moment leading up to this time ) Aaron Hulburd would have been able to get some footage with his Helmet Camera as well… if he had wanted and/or attempted to do so.
Just a followup to the information above…
BOTH of the other crew members of DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 also confirm, in their signed depositions, that a Yavapai County Sheriff’s Department CAPTAIN was onboard Ranger 58 when it returned to the deployment site after refueling and his ‘purpose’ was to shoot pictures of the deployment site BEFORE sunset and it became too dark to film.
It is actually pilot Clifford Brunsting who confirms that this YCSO ‘Captain’ used TWO different cell/smartphones and he took BOTH pictures and VIDEO of the deployment site from Ranger 58.
From DPS Officer Charles Main’s deposition…
————————————————
Ranger returned to the helibase, performed a “hot” refuel at 1818 hours and returned to the scene. Upon arrival, Officer/Paramedic Tarr confirmed there were 19 fatalities on the scene at approximately 1828 hours. There was another wildland firefighter with him. The crew decided to leave Officer/Paramedic Tarr on scene, to maintain security, until command could arrange more support personnel to secure the area for the night. Ranger flew back to the heli-base to drop me off and pick up the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Captain, to get a few quick pictures of the area
——————————————————–
So Charles Main says (specifically) it was a YCSO ‘Captain’ that was going to take the pictures ( and VIDEO ) of the deployment site before it got too dark.
From (pilot) Clifford Brunsting’s signed deposition…
————————————————————-
I then radioed to Air Attack over the air-to-air frequency that we had 19 down at the scene. Air Attack (Brave 3) inquired “fatalities?” and I replied “affirmative”. Officer Tarr remained at the scene to provide security until someone else could take over control. I returned to the heli-base to refuel and then proceeded to the Yavapai Sheriff’s Command vehicle to brief them.
After de-briefing them I flew a Captain from Yavapai County to the scene to take aerial photographs of the scene while we still had some light before sunset. This flight lasted from 1930 to 1940 hours. The Captain used two cell phone cameras to take still and video pictures of the scene. After completion of the photos I returned to the heli-base to await the return of Officer Tarr.
—————————————————————-
NOTE the ADDITIONAL DETAIL provided by pilot Brunsting.
He ( like Charles Main ) specifies it was a YCSO ‘Captain’ that flew onboard to take pictures of the site… but pilot Burnsting gets even MORE specific and says that this YCSO ‘Captain’ used TWO cell/smartphones to take BOTH pictures AND VIDEO.
So there was certainly enough LIGHT left for this YCSO Captain to be taking those initial photos and VIDEO of the deployment site.
Aaron Hulburd was DOWN THERE at the deployment site by this time.
Maybe one day we will find out whether or not Aaron Hulburd ALSO had his ‘Helmet-Camera’ on at any time during this ‘ground rescue mission’… or at any time he was actually THERE at the deployment site.
Would surprise me if any of those pictures get released .
due to Family concerns.
Actual (raw) deployment site pictures… yes… and rightly so.
But anything ELSE, such as footage of the ground rescue mission ‘breaking through’ in the Youth Camp area and then the resulting search ( and any radio traffic captured or even conversation amongst the participants ) should be released.
IF it exists, that is.
I still just find it ‘not credible’ that the ONLY time Aaron Hulburd used his Helmet Camera that day was just those 7 minutes and 49 seconds that were released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013.
OK latest info I have indicates the ADOSH is and has been showing the Full head cam Video to the Families and overhead in Prescott for there input some family members have been upset with it.
This means it is being released to some people. I wonder if the news media is trying to get a copy?
WTKTT–
One of your statements a few days ago I wanted to go back to.
The Prescott Gang—–
The 3 Division Supervisors were Prescott NF Employees including Aaron Hulburd.
I may have misunderstood you as them being Prescott City Employees.
The Forest Service may have had to give up the full Head cam Video to the State, as critical evidence in the States Case. Just a thought It has taken a while for ADOSH to get it and start review. I think the people that have herd it are saying there is some critical evidence on it that was not originally released. Very Interesting Hope it surfaces soon.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2014 at 6:25 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT– One of your statements a few days ago I wanted to go
>> back to. The Prescott Gang—–
>> The 3 Division Supervisors were Prescott NF Employees including
>> Aaron Hulburd. I may have misunderstood you as them being
>> Prescott City Employees.
I might have slipped on the keyboard somewhere below and referred to them as Prescott City Employees… but if I did… that was just a typo.
There has never been any doubt that these Bea Day team ‘off the radar’ ‘Prescott Gang’ hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were/are all ‘Prescott National FOREST’ employees.
Jason Clawson
As early as April 16, 2012… Jason Clawson is showing up in mainstream
media articles with the title ‘West Zone Assistant Fire Management Officer
for Prescott National Forest”.
In May of this year… the ‘assistant’ title is no longer appearing and he
appeared in a Prescott Daily Courier article on May 14, 2014, listed
only as ‘Fire Management Officer of the Prescott National Forest’.
Aaron Hulburd
Listed in various online articles since at least 2010 ( and on to the present )
as a ‘Fuels Specialist for Prescott National Forest’.
KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
In one 2010 article that names Hulburd as a ‘Fuels Specialist’ for
Prescott National Forest… KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is also quoted in the
same article as being Hulburd’s assistant on a fuels abatement
program and simply a ‘Firefighter for Prescott National Forest’.
Other MSM articles give the following title to KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell…
‘Fuels Management Specialist for the US Forest Service,
prescribed and wildfire in the Prescott and Coconino National Forests’.
In the following Prescott Daily Courier article dated April 14, 2012, there
is a PHOTO of KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell doing a ‘Sandbox’ presentation for Prescott
National Forest Engine 930 and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is listed ( in 2012 )
as “Prescott National Forest Crew 2 Hotshot KC Yowell”.
http://dcourier.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=105425
All of the CONTACT information online for Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd,
and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are addresses and phone numbers that belong
to ‘Prescott National Forest’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The Forest Service may have had to give up the full Head cam
>> Video to the State, as critical evidence in the States Case. Just a
>> thought It has taken a while for ADOSH to get it and start review.
Since there is no doubt that Aaron Hulburd’s ‘full time’ job was with the Prescott National Forest’… then if he went through ‘channels’ when he was trying to get his Helmet Camera video known to investigators then YES… it is possible that his ‘Helmet Cam’ video has ALWAYS been being ‘controlled’ by the US Forestry Service itself.
If Hulburd (first) gave it straight to the Arizona Forestry SAIT people ( the entire thing or maybe even just the part we have seen already ) then this is actually rather ‘problematic’ for Arizona Forestry.
Simple Arizona ‘Open Records’ requests to Arizona Forestry should still have produced EVERYTHING that was in their possession from Aaron Hulburd.
We still have NO IDEA what the ‘real story’ is with Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam.
WHO did he give it to first?
How MUCH of it did he reveal at that time?
Did Hulburd give ( someone? ) everything he had and we have been watching the rest of it be ‘withheld’ by Arizona Forestry for all this time… or was the US Forestry Service already ‘in control’ of that evidence and only coughing up ‘pieces’ of it even to Arizona Forestry.
The complete ‘story’ of how this Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet Cam’ actually was revealed to investigators… and WHEN that happened… still needs to be told.
The ‘tricky’ part for Arizona Forestry is if they somehow try to DENY that they had this ‘Helmet Cam’ early on… before they even came up with their ‘no one communicated with Granite Mountain’ blackout story they tried to get us to believe.
There is already proof that as early as August 22, 2013, ADOSH and the
Wildland Fire Associates contractors working for them were already fully aware
of at least the 7 minute and 49 second ‘excerpt’ from Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video.
That proof comes in the following ‘exchange’ from Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview
which took place on August 22, 2013.
From page 54 ( of 73 pages ) of Todd Abel’s ADOSH interview transcript…
Q1 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A = Central Yavapai County Fire Captain Todd Abel ( Field OPS1 at Yarnell )
—————————-
2374 Q1: Okay. So when you’re hearing the, my escape route has been cut off, can you
2375 talk about that?
2376
2377 A: Mm-hm.
2378
2379 Q1: Somebody recorded that.
2380
2381 A: Yep.
—————————–
So right there.. Dave Larsen is referring directly to the Aaron Hulbured ‘Helmet Cam’ recording and the part where Eric Marsh finally jumps in and tells John Burfiend in Bravo 33 that their ‘escape route has been cut off’.
Even on August 22, 2013… Todd Abel was (apparently) already fully aware
that this ‘Helmet Cam’ recording existed. He was NOT surprised at all when
Dave Larsen told him that moment ‘had been recorded’.
Abel ALREADY knew that.
It is still NOT KNOWN how Todd Abel himself was already aware of Aaron Hulburd’s ‘Helmet Cam’ and the radio traffic it had recorded.
It is possible Todd Abel learned of the ‘Helmet Cam’ weeks before this ADOSH
interview when he was interviewed by Arizona Forestry and the SAIT.
So if ADOSH was fully aware of this ‘Helmet Cam’ as early as August 22, 2013… then it’s going to be hard for Arizona Forestry or the SAIT to claim they did NOT know about it prior to publishing their SAIR report.
If there really is MUCH more footage in that video that goes back and covers the entire ( supposed ) ‘blackout’ period they claimed in their SAIR… is AZF going to somehow claim that the ONLY part of the Helmet Cam they, themsevles, were ever aware of was that same 7 minute and 49 seconds ‘cut’ that ended up released ( by THEM ) on December 13, 2013?
There’s a big STORY here that still remains to be told.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I think the people that have herd it are saying there is some
>> critical evidence on it that was not originally released.
>> Very Interesting Hope it surfaces soon.
Yep. Depending on how many extra ‘minutes’ there are… it will be covering some very crtical timeframes where we are still missing the actual CALL SIGNS of people that we KNOW were ‘communicating directly with Granite Mountain’.
If it covers the 4:27 timeframe… we will probably finally hear the exact CALL SIGN of WHO was ( apparently ) urging Marsh and GM to “Hurry to town”.
If it covers the 4:16 timeframe… we will probably finally CLEARLY hear the CALL SIGN of whoever that was calling GM directly and asking them what their STATUS was at that critical time. We might also hear the critical A2G traffic preceding that where Bravo 33 seemed to be saying it was ‘not credible’ to them that GM could be reporting themselves as ‘comfortable’ and Bravo 33 asked someone on the ground to CALL them and ask them if DIVSA was actually WITH them ( which someone actually DID just 20 seconds after that request ).
If it covers anything farther back than 4:16… we might learn even more.
Also… see above.
If there really IS extra footage with some pretty critical radio como captures on it… how is Arizona Forestry going to DENY that they were fully aware of whatever else that footage contains prior to publishing their own report?
The 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was released on December 13, 2013 was (supposedly) released by Arizona Forestry itself.
If it turns out there is MUCH MORE to that video… is AZF still going to claim they ONLY had the 7 minute and 49 second ‘cut’ that they, themselves, ended up releasing to SAIT FOIA/FOIL requests?
…or are they going to admit that they always DID have the ‘complete’ Aaron Hulburd footage and they DECIDED to ‘butcher it’ and ONLY release what they WANTED to in response to legal ‘Arizona Open Records’ and FOIA / FOIL requests?
Behavior like that actually carries its own ‘penalties’.
WTKTT–
Based on what I have herd this entire Video was given to the SAIR investigation.
This is where we herd way back and discussed that several overhead were upset that a lot of information was not released in the Investigation report.
I do believe that while Hulburd had the video he retained custody of the original and released a copy the entire roughly 50 Min. which covers almost an hour of prior radio traffic prior to deployment.
This along with interviews that were not published of the 3 Prescott NF employees.
As I said earlier this Video is being viewed or recently has been By families of GM and Prescott City Personnel. The info I received says that several family members were upset with the information in the Video.
No one had specifics on what the Family members were upset about.
Maybe Joy has picked up on something here from Prescott or Yarnell.
I expect the News media will be all over this soon. To many people are now evolved to keep it quiet.
I am thinking that the Video in full will be released as soon as all the affected parties have reviewed it. At leased that’s the rumor with in the FS in Arizona.
Refer again below to what RTS said about the Fire Fighters he spoke with that were on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 19, 2014 at 8:00 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Based on what I have herd this entire Video was
>> given to the SAIR investigation.
Well, then… if that is true… then based on what it contains that could be really problematic for Arizona Forestry, Jim Karels, Mike Dudley, and all the other ‘decision makers’ on the SAIT team.
The mainstream media ( and the world at large ) still thinks those men died because there were ‘radio problems’ and that no one knew where they were or had ANY idea they were making such a dangerous ‘move’..
That is what Arizona Forestry, Jim Karels and Mike Dudley decided the official ‘investigation’ was going to conclude and what they WANTED the mainstream media to report.
Indeed… most people who didn’t even bother to read the SAIR still just think ‘the big bad fire’ just ‘came and got them’ and it was absolutely unavoidable and inescapable.
If that complete Helmet-Cam video is really as long as is being reported… then what I think it actually captures in those timeframes would probably prove that the entire SAIT investigation wasn’t just inaccurate… but a complete and total FRAUD.
To this day… no one knows how much money was actually spent on that ‘SAIT’ thing ( it might be in the millions of dollars )… but if proof comes out that it did, in fact, just result in a completely FRAUDULENT report… I imagine the Arizona State Finance Division and/or the Arizona Attorney General’s office is going to do some followup there on behalf of the Arizona taxpayers who footed the entire bill for THAT fiasco.
As I said in a previous post… I don’t think Arizona Forestry could ever get away with simply claiming the ONLY part of that video that even THEY ever had was that 7 minute and 49 second piece that they released in response to Arizona Open Records request on December 13, 2013.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This is where we herd way back and discussed that several
>> overhead were upset that a lot of information was not
>> released in the Investigation report.
I am also now wondering if this (supposed) additional Helmet-Cam footage is actually the same ‘video’ that was also discussed recently by that person who called you about the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed.
I would still imagine that that ‘argument’. ( IF it actually took place and IF it was captured in video/audio ) must have taken place over the GM intra-crew frequency… but as I also said before… it is still perfectly possible that Prescott National Forest Bea Day team member Aaron Hulburd might have actually HAD the Granite Mountain intra-crew programmed in to his radio and he WAS scanning that channel the whole time he and Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were in the Yarnell area and whenever he had his ‘Helmet Camera’ running.
If he didn’t… then we must still be talking about some OTHER mysterious piece of video/audio that had to have been captured by someone who did have access to that channel such as Brendan McDonough himself and/or ANY of the Blue Ridge Hotshots who were driving all FOUR of those Granite Mountain vehicles later that afternoon.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I do believe that while Hulburd had the video he retained
>> custody of the original and released a copy the entire
>> roughly 50 Min. which covers almost an hour of prior
>> radio traffic prior to deployment.
The EXIF data that is in that 7 minute and 49 second ‘piece’ that was released by Arizona Forestry does, in fact, indicate that the ‘Handbrake’ video encoder/decoder was used in the creation of that ‘piece’.
The ‘Handbrake’ software is a popular ‘Open Source’ set of video tools famous for extracting video from DVDs.
So perhaps even that is proof’ that Arizona Forestry only got a DVD ‘copy’ of the original footage from Hulburd and YES… he still has ALL of the original video he took that day regardless of what AZF has.
I’m sure that is the case.
If nothing else… then Hulburd still has the original camera and it all might still be sitting on that device as well.
In other words… I certainly don’t think Hulburd ever gave his CAMERA to anyone. Whatever anyone got… it was just a ‘copy’ of what Aaron Hulburd still retains ownership of.
I also still wonder if Hulburd ALSO turned his Helmet Camera on at ANY time during his participation in the actual ground rescue mission.
If I had one on MY head during that ‘rescue mission’… I certainly would have felt the need to RECORD what was happening during such a critical time.
Even if Hulburd WAS making ‘Helmet-Camera’ recordings during that ground rescue mission he was participating in… I wonder if even HE has ever given any of that to ANYONE.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This along with interviews that were not published of
>> the 3 Prescott NF employees.
I could always see Arizona Forestry’s reasoning ( without agreeing with it ) in making it as difficult as possible for anyone ( ADOSH included ) to discern from their own ‘reports’ and ‘evidence’ that these 3 off-the-radar hires were even THERE in Yarnell that day… much less the fact that they were KEY WITNESSES and KEY PARTICIPANTS in the mission that actually arrived at the deployment site….
….but I’ve always been unable to believe that Arizona Forestry itself would not at least have TALKED to all three of these men.
There is no question now that Arizona Forestry has always been ‘picking and choosing’ what to release in response to legal Arizona Open Records requests. Withholding interview notes or transcripts from THESE 3 men would be just ‘more’ of that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> As I said earlier this Video is being viewed or recently
>> has been By families of GM and Prescott City Personnel.
>> The info I received says that several family members
>> were upset with the information in the Video.
This is really starting to sound like that whole ‘frap’ over the photo of the 19 flag-draped coffins that popped up on Facebook the very day the bodies were removed from the canyon.
The story on THAT was that it, too, was supposedly something that was ONLY being distributed to ‘family members’… but someone let the cat got out of the bag and one of them posted the photo to Facebook.
A few days later, after that photo had gone worldwide, Arizona Central did a full article on that photo itself and the ‘frap’ it has caused and how some family members were ‘upset’ that anyone but them would be able to ‘see’ this photo.
That article is still HERE…
http://www.azcentral.com/news/arizona/articles/20130704yarnell-fire-photo-fallen-firefighters-controversy.html
It has always been believed that it was Darrell Willis himself who actually TOOK that photo out at the deployment site the moment they finished putting all the flags over all the body bags.
Willis has never actually denied it… but he DID ‘disavow’ all responsibility for the photo showing up on Facebook.
AZREPUBLIC asked Willis directly about his involvement with this photo and if you notice his response… he ONLY denies any involvement with the photo going ‘public’ and never says he didn’t take it and was then the one distributing it to ‘family members’ under some kind of ‘agreement’ that he then mentions to AZREPUBLIC…
From the article…
————————————–
Contacted by The Republic late Thursday, Willis said he had no connection to the page and said he did not post the photo or authorize its posting.
“This is totally unauthorized. It’s totally against anything we committed to,” Willis said
He confirmed the authenticity of the photo, but said he was upset that someone would attach his name to a page with the image.
——————————————–
So it still does look like Darrell Willis was the one that TOOK that photo and then decided ( himself? ) to start ‘distributing it’ to ‘family members’ but only under some kind of ‘commitment’ that it wasn’t supposed to ever be seen by anyone else. His only ‘complaint’ to AZREPUBLIC was that some family member had posted it to Facebook and that his NAME would somehow be ‘attached to that page’.
I’m not really sure why ADOSH would now be doing pretty much the same thing Willis did with that ‘flag photo’.
Perhaps it has something to do with the suits that have been filed by the family members. Dunno.
Of COURSE ‘some family members’ are going to be ‘upset’ about NEW information coming out about the events of June 30, 2013.
SOME family members have ALWAYS been against ANY information whatsoever coming to light about the events of that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> No one had specifics on what the Family members were
>> upset about.
See above. SOME family members have NEVER really wanted ANY information about what really happened that day to ever see the light of day. They would be ‘upset’ about ANYTHING else ‘coming out’… not to mention another 40-50 minutes of radio captures.
I also imagine the opposite is true and I hope that somehow gets ‘reported’ as well.
I will bet any number of ‘family members’ feel very strongly that ANY new evidence about what happened that day SHOULD be released.
I hope those voices are given as much ( if not MORE ) weight than what is coming from others who might be ‘upset’ about any ‘new evidence’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Maybe Joy has picked up on something here from
>> Prescott or Yarnell. I expect the News media will be all
>> over this soon.
Probably so.
Nothing pisses the mainstream media itself off more than to discover that even THEY have been ‘bullshitted’ and/or not given the right information from (supposed) ‘official’ sources.
They are usually ‘all over that’ when it happens.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Too many people are now evolved to keep it quiet.
>> I am thinking that the Video in full will be released as
>> soon as all the affected parties have reviewed it.
>> At leased that’s the rumor with in the FS in Arizona.
Something tells me the already scheduled November 17 ‘ADOSH findings challenge review’ might play into the timing here.
ADOSH might be waiting until AFTER this ‘review’ of Arizona Forestry’s challenge of their own findings before they actually ‘release’ any new evidence they might have.
Then again… maybe not.
Maybe they want to do a classic ‘getting out in front of the story’ move and release what NEW evidence they have BEFORE this actual ‘review’ of their findings even takes place.
It’s hard to say what ‘strategy’ even the ADOSH lawyers might think is best here. We will have to wait and see.
I think you may have hit on a point I have been thinking about.
BR may just have the same or part of the same info that is on the Helmet cam which in turn will confirm their written statements.
This could also coincide with Dudley’s Argument information heard on the radio that also is part of what I was told awhile back.
Maybe we will get a bunch of puzzle pieces very soon.
Well… if it DOES turn out that there is far more Aaron Hulburd Helmet-Cam footage than was previously (generally) known and that it DID actually capture some/all of this (supposed) argument between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed…
…then that would pretty much make mincemeat of SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley’s public statement that they ‘could not validate the allegations of an argument between Marsh and Steed’.
If the SAIT had ALL of Hulburd’s footage since day one… and it DID record some/all of that ‘argument’….
…then Mike Dudley is a liar.
Or he wanted to say more but just left us hanging?
Who knows with the way this whole thing has twisted and turned and what is yet to revel its self.
Lies, stories or half truths to lead the story where the investigation wanted it .
Maybe just to much camera and video out there to accomplish what they were charged with. The story has a life of its own that will not be held back.
to answer you- Yes we did hear it was being reviewed but no further information was provided and yes there is alot of information that is being reviewed but nothing shared to the hikers except some want to hike with us that are reviewing it.
If you ask me—it sounds squirrely like possibly in the near future there may be a battle of state vs county vs city…vs government….on properly assessing who is going to settle this towards the homeowners and loved ones of the GMHS suing because the one thing we did hear it appears it will never make it to court—“settlement” talk—
I think even if they settle—it will not stop me in my seeking clarity—every time Sonny hikes the ridge he weeps and grievously shakes his head saying “of 19 men dead…very little said…the state doesn’t know what to do…they lost almost the whole Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew…hearts are broken…hard to mend…when we know they were cast to the wind…Now they say GO FORWARD…Leave them behind…but we who lost them…Will do nothing of the kind…Truth we want.”
Thanks Joy keep us informed. You and Sonny are great people.
Thanks for the effort everyone. Some really good work!
I thought you might find this link interesting.
https://www.osha.gov/pls/oshaweb/owadisp.show_document?p_table=DIRECTIVES&p_id=2024
Thank you everybody for your various descriptions of how these interagency Cooperative Agreements work. It’s pretty much how I had envisioned them already, but it helps to understand them in a bit more detail (but not too much detail).
Back when I was scouring WildlandFireFighters dot com, I periodically came across various arguments among various people about how they work vs how they should work. I didn’t try to understand them, but I did take note that they do incite arguments!
What I’m trying to get at more is the LEGAL parameters of them, especially in regards to the (in various contexts understandable) with-holding of evidence by the Federal Agencies.
Here’s why:
On October 13, 2014 at 12:08 AM WantsToKnowtheTruth said:
“…At 10:30 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013, someone named Eric Marsh officially became ‘Division A’ and a direct member of the State of Arizona’s fire management team and a direct ‘contracted employee’ of the State of Arizona. His appointment to that fire management position was fully known and fully approved by the other State of Arizona managers/employees that were also working for the State of Arizona in Yarnell that day.
Actually… EVERYONE who was working the Yarnell fire that day can be legally considered an ‘Employee of the State of Arizona’ but even if you could nitpick an Engine or a crew and their actual ‘contractor/subcontractor’ legal status… certainly the MANAGEMENT team itself all had that ‘official’ employment status that day.
The State of Arizona OWNED that fire.
They were the top-level EMPLOYER that day.
They officially ( and legally ) entered into what is called an ‘assumption of risk’ situation and were then totally responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the safety of everyone working there.”
So, specifically, what I’m trying to figure out here is, if the above is the case, no matter how the various streams of money flow around, does this mean that the various Federal Agency people on the fire, especially the ones assigned to the IMT, were, LEGALLY speaking, “employees” of AZ Fire, while on that fire, rather than “employees” of the Federal Agencies they were, normally, employed by?
I’m asking this because I’m wondering how, if that’s the case, that would possibly change the legal status of those people in regards to the “protective umbrella” the USFS/BLM have put in place via their “gag order.”
Would that mean, for example, that that change in status would take precedence over that “protective umbrella?” Especially in regards to ADOSH’s continuing investigation?
(Am I making sense here?)
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 17, 2014 at 6:22 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Would that mean, for example, that that change in status would take
>> precedence over that “protective umbrella?” Especially in regards to
>> ADOSH’s continuing investigation?
>>
>> (Am I making sense here?)
Yes. I understand perfectly what you are thinking about it here.
It is very, very complicated… legally speaking.
What might help make it clear is that while Mr. Powers is absolutely right about all this ‘sub-contracting’ going on and people actually ‘remaining’ defacto ’employees’ of whoever actually hands them paychecks…
…we are, ultimately, talking about a JOB SITE here.
It’s very similar ( if not identical ) to the construction business.
On any given day ( at a busy construction site ) you have any number of ‘contractors’ and ‘sub-contractors’ obviously all ‘working together’ on a common goal ( the construction itself ). Normally… everything goes fine and everyone goes home that day. Somehow… the billable hours all get processed and everyone eventually gets PAID by the people they actually ‘work’ for.
Sometimes… there is an ACCIDENT.
At that point… it gets very confusing ( legally speaking ) about WHO was really WORKING for WHO and how the ‘liability’ might go down with regards to the accident…
…but one thing is always ‘for sure’.
There is always some TOP LEVEL EMPLOYER who is ultimately responsible for the overall SAFETY of that particular ‘worksite’ no matter how many ‘contractors’ or ‘sub-contractors’ were there ‘working’.
So it really comes down to a ‘chain of liability’ rather than a ‘chain of employment’.
If the TOP LEVEL employer on a construction site ‘borrows’ some guy from some sub-contracted crew to act as a ‘manager’ at the construction site itself ( and even put in charge of people he doesn’t normally work with )… then that TOP LEVEL employer is automatically ( and legally ) entering into the ‘assumption of risk’ for that person’s actions.
If some fatal accident occurs and this person they had ‘tapped’ to be a manager on their behalf had anything to do with it… then the ‘chain of liability’ still extends right the to TOP LEVEL employer… regardless of what ‘crew’ this guy ‘normally’ works for or could be said to be ‘normally’ employed by.
So who you actually get your PAYCHECK from is not the ONLY ‘legal’ criteria when it comes to then trying to determine the ‘chain of liability’.
As for the FEDS and their seeming ability to just play ‘ping-pong’ with this Yarnell Incident and, on the one hand, say it isn’t their job to do an investigation because it was just a ‘State Fire’ and only the STATE has to figure out what happened… and then, on the other hand, use their full powers of ‘immunity’ and ‘protection’ for people they consider ‘their employees’ on this STATE run fire…
…well… what can I say.
It’s the US Forestry Service.
They want their cake and eat it too.
They don’t want to be ‘involved’ in having to figure out what really happened even though a lot of their own ‘by-the-book’ employees were THERE and were both involved in critical decision making AND were critical ‘witnesses’ to the tragic events.
Yet… at the same time… they also chose to NOT fully cooperate with the very STATE level agencies that WERE tasked with investigating the incident ( instead of them ).
It’s a ‘game’ that the US Forestry Service is playing here.
What complicates everything is this whole ‘Sovereign Immunity’ thing.
The FEDS have it. Arizona Forestry does NOT.
Arizona is NOT one of those states where PUBLIC agencies or servants CANNOT be sued.
So even though these ‘Federal Employees’ were being ‘contracted’ to actually WORK on an Arizona Forestry run worksite in a STATE that does NOT have ‘Sovereign Immunity’ laws for PUBLIC workers… does that automatically mean the Federal ‘Immunity’ extends to THOSE sub-contractors’ working in THAT environment on THAT particular day?
Very complicated… legally speaking.
It WILL be interesting to see how this all plays out since, in this particular incident, a number of these (supposed) ‘Federal Employees’ were ( and remain ) KEY PARTICIPANTS and/or KEY WITNESSES to the tragic events that day.
In other words….
How long can the FEDS remain ‘uncooperative’ and prevent certain STATE level agencies from doing the jobs that THEY are required ( by law ) to do.
I still think US Forestry shouldn’t be able to have it both ways.
They shouldn’t be able to ‘pass’ on having to do their own investigation of a tragedy that took place with their own ’employees’ involved as both managers and witnesses… and then be able to still say they have every right to throw their Federal Level ‘Soverign Immunity’ blanket around them as well.
Thank you for your timely reply. I think we’re pretty much sitting on the same page here.
And your response helps me know I’m not way out there in the ozone in the thoughts I’m thinking or the questions I’m asking.
I was thinking, after I wrote what I wrote, that we may be in somewhat uncharted waters here. And I think what you are saying agrees with that thought.
The next thing I thought after the “uncharted waters” thought was that this interesting/significant conflict is probably playing itself out in spades (even as we sit here at our computers and “think out loud”) as ADOSH is going about gathering its larger net of evidence in response to AZ Fire’s (possibly–in hindsight–FAIL) rejection of ADOSH’s claims, and it’s not possible to PREDICT what will happen (given all the complexity) but we are going to have to just OBSERVE how this all plays out.
And I agree with you that the USFS, at this point, wants to have its cake (for some justifiable reasons) and eat it, too.
I often think that the SAIT should have labelled their Report a “Preliminary Report.” The pressure on both the SAIT and the ADOSH to produce investigations/reports in way too little time (especially given the USFS/BLM likely moves to protect their employees by obstructing the investigations), I think, is a part of the mess we are witnessing.
That being said, I’m still mystified as to why the lawsuits target the Central Yavapai Fire Department.
And I still think that it is significant that the (FEDERAL Interagency) National Wildfire Coordinating Group has been tasked, by AZ Fire via the SAIT, to conduct a Human Factors Investigation of this fire, also.
And I’ve been thinking, ever since I discovered that, that THIS investigation could possibly be in play in terms of the possible settlements of the lawsuits.
And another thought that I’ve thought for awhile is this.
The Yarnell Hill Fire engagement was a COMPLETE MESS with or without the deaths of the Granite Mountain 19.
We can debate among ourselves–and HAVE for MONTHS–the responsibility of that crew for its own demise.
But even if you remove from the equation the demise of that crew (with their sleeves rolled up/down and their gloves on/off), you still have left a WHOLE BUNCH OF potentially FATAL near misses.
Which would not even be potentially still left on the table if the Granite Mountain IHC hadn’t died on that fire.
Because of that, I’m really hoping that the current/ensuing investigations look WAY BEYOND the demise of Granite Mountain in order to critique all the other FAILS that put a LOT of other peoples’ lives at serious risk. Lessons Learned Indeed.
And in my book that full investigation and calling a spade a spade should have happened and did not.
WHY? Is it the new way of doing things or just a total failure of the investigation.
The investigation failed to do a lot of things and answer a lot of questions, and make real recommendations.
WTKTT
The USFS is first protecting its Employees from Law suits
as Arizona would if the rolls were reversed.
They are in no way attempting to cover up or obstruct the investigation. The redactions of statements is covered under federal employee rules to protect employee rights to public release of information. This is a job related incident Federal employees are still Federal employees they are not immune to lawsuits but Lawyers are also provided to them in these situations. Their testimony Which was used in the SAIR is still available to the courts and Lawyers. At this time it is not available for public release. Which again answers your question or statement on a fire they are still Federal Employees under Co-op Agreements not AZ Fire Employees. If this was a Federal Fire the statements would still be treated the same under public release of information and a order to not make any public statements to its employees for legal purposes. I do believe that ADOSH could have individually interviewed the Federal Employees if they wanted to and could still do that now but Fed. Lawyers would be present at the interviews.
The testimony is part of the investigation record and there for can be requested by Lawyers from both sides.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 18, 2014 at 7:56 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The USFS is first protecting its Employees from
>> Law suits as Arizona would if the rolls were reversed.
The USFS is a FEDERAL level agency.
They already have ‘Sovereign Immunity’… and it extends to their ’employees’. Without being able to prove criminal intent… it would be VERY difficult for anyone to sue a Federal employee with a civil action who is already protected under this ‘Immunity’.
If you simply Google “United States Forestry Service” and “Sovereign Immunity” you will gets TONS of links showing that the USFS is always ready to play the ‘Sovereign Immunity’ card in a heartbeat with regards to any lawsuits filed against them.
So it’s actually not all that credible to believe that whatever the FEDS are withholding might be because of any huge ‘afraid of lawsuits’ motivation.
Arizona Forestry is a completely different story.
Arizona is NOT one of the states in the Union that have passed their own ‘Sovereign Immunity’ legislation for PUBLIC agencies and their employees.
I mentioned yesterday that one of the interesting ‘big level’ legal fights coming out of this incident is whether that Federal Level ‘Sovereign Immunity’ really does legally ( and fully ) extend to USFS employees who are being hired out as ‘contractors’ in a State that HAS no ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for ‘State Contractors’.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They are in no way attempting to cover up or
>> obstruct the investigation.
I wish I could share your confidence on this point.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The redactions of statements is covered under
>> federal employee rules to protect employee
>> rights to public release of information.
Yes… but there are MANY heavily redacted sections in the Blue Ridge Unit Logs that do NOT seem to automatically qualify with coverage under that standard ‘privacy’ exemption.
There are sections that seem to have been redacted for ‘other’ reasons… which USFS has never explained.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This is a job related incident Federal employees
>> are still Federal employees they are not immune
>> to lawsuits but Lawyers are also provided to
>> them in these situations.
Well… normally they ARE ‘immune to ‘civil’ lawsuits as long as no criminal intent can be proved or anyone be ‘charged’ with anything.
But you ARE right… nothing is ever written in stone when it comes to this ‘immunity’ stuff and so in a case like Yarnell I’m sure the lawyers have been busy talking to any of their people who were anywhere near Yarnell that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their testimony Which was used in the SAIR is still
>> available to the courts and Lawyers.
I would hope so… but I ( myself ) don’t know that for sure.
They ( Arizona Forestry and the FEDS ) might be fighting any requests from ADOSH and/or the private lawyers as hard as they possibly can.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> At this time it is not available for public release.
If there really is additional ‘Helmet Cam’ footage… we would need to know WHO is actually considered to be in ‘possession’ of it before we could know how difficult it might be for it to ever see the light of day.
If ADOSH ( An Arizona State Agency ) already has it ( the full footage )… then it would take a special ruling by a judge ( just like it did with the autopsy and toxicilogy reports ) for it to NOT be subject to a simple ‘Arizona Open Records’ request.
Of course… if it turns out that the full footage was ALWAYS already in the possession of Arizona Forestry and they already felt free to just ‘butcher’ it and NOT include the full footage in the fulfillment of all those Arizona Open Record requests back in December of last year… then it’s obvious that Arizona Forestry just thinks it can always do whatever the hell it wants and to heck with all that pesky, annoying stuff like Arizona Law.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Which again answers your question or statement
>> on a fire they are still Federal Employees under Co-op
>> Agreements not AZ Fire Employees.
Again. THAT little detail MAY become a very serious issue in this case if everyone wants to go the mat on this one.
As in.. is a USFS employee REALLY still totally covered by Federal Level ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for every little frickin’ contract side-job they sign on for in addition to what they do for their regular paycheck?
Arizona is NOT a state where people hired as ‘contractors’ cannot be sued for actions that lead to death or personal injury.
I guess I need to actually go off and read these actual CO-OP agreement documents you are talking about.
It might be interesting to discover there is actually already some ‘fine print’ in those contracts themselves that covers this very issue and says, one way or the other, who is performing the ‘assumption of risk’ when the contract is signed.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If this was a Federal Fire the statements would still
>> be treated the same under public release of
>> information and a order to not make any public
>> statements to its employees for legal purposes.
>> I do believe that ADOSH could have individually
>> interviewed the Federal Employees if they wanted
>> to and could still do that now but Fed. Lawyers
>> would be present at the interviews.
ADOSH was directly informed that the FEDS were going to go TOUGHY on this one ( slang for Touhy requests ).
They apparently did everything they were being told to do but were still denied the ability to interview USFS employees.
Regardless of how many Touhy requests they filed ( or keep filing )… if USFS still just keeps refusing to honor them… I really don’t know what happens then.
Someone ( US Attorney’s Office? ) has to come down like a hammer on USFS, or something.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The testimony is part of the investigation record
>> and there for can be requested by Lawyers from
>> both sides.
I would hope so… but see above.
Even a State Agency like ADOSH was being forced to submit Touhy requests for every damn thing they were asking to see.
I imagine it’s been even harder for the attorneys for the families.
‘
Somebody doesn’t want people to know what really happened that day… and they are going through an AWFUL lot of trouble to make it difficult for others to find out… even when it is their own legal responsibility to do so ( E.g. ADOSH ).
Marti to keep this from getting lost—
The Head cam video released to the media was edited and I believe the first release to ADOSH was that portion of the Video. ADOSH has sense received the additional 43 min. of the head cam video. So they now have the entire video which evidently has a lot more on GM and Marsh on it. ADOSH evidently plans to release the full video which is now in there possession.
Have not found out how that will be done. Maybe thru a request by the news media. Or maybe the state themselves. All we do know is there is a lot more video out there we haven’t seen or herd.
Thank you!
What you wrote about the video showing the start showing the “hit the play button” really triggered my memory. I REALLY remember seeing something like that, and I remember us discussing it, but the video we have via the FOIA doesn’t show that. It’s a cut of the actual video, not a video of “editing the video.”
So I went on the intertubes yesterday to try to find it, but I couldn’t. Everything I found doesn’t have that “hit the play button” start.
I’m really mystified by this, and also not sure it’s all that worthy of being mystified by it.
Marti… that copy of the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the original 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ clip release that had the ‘weird’ PLAY buttons at the start was the one that accompanied Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ article about the Helmet-Cam on December 13, 2013.
That original Wildfire Today BLOG post AND the accompanying YouTube video are both still there.
I detailed this down below where you asked the same question so here is that same full response reprinted again up here…
** The full post from somewhere down below…
The copy of original ‘Helmet Cam’ footage that was released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013 that had those ‘weird images’ at the start of it was the copy that appeared on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today BLOG post the same day the original was released.
This is the one that actually shows some ‘video controls’ at the start and is obviously a video of someone starting a ‘screen capture’ of some piece of original footage playing in a video player.
That ‘screen capture’ is what ran with Gabbert’s article about the ‘Helmet Cam’ and was also subsequently uploaded to YouTube to the actual ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube channel/account.
That copy of just the FIRST part of the Helmet Cam video that accompanied the Wildfire Today BLOG post was never even the complete footage that was released on December 13, 2013.
‘Wildfire Today’ only chose to ‘screen capture’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the actual full 7 minutes and 49 seconds of the original Helmet-Cam video as released by the SAIT.
Wildfire Today YouTube Video TITLE…
Radio Transmissions from Granite Mountain Hotshots, Yarnell Hill Fire
.Wildfire Today YouTube Video Direct LINK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbrlWTng2JU
This the one that clearly shows someone STARTING the video at a certain point with some kind of video player so this upload to Youtube appears to just be a ‘screen capture’.
.The ‘play’ bar that only appears for a few seconds at the start of the video has the standard ‘video offset’ and ‘video length’ counters on the left and right, respectively.
The ‘video offset’ counter on the left says: 00:02
The ‘video length’ indicator on the right says: 00:03:36
So it would appear that whatever piece of video was about to be ‘screen recorded’ was actually ‘paused’ at 2 seconds into the video before the ‘screen capture’ began and the total length of this ‘video clip’ that was about to be ‘screen captured’ was actually only 3 minutes and 36 seconds.
That means that someone had already ‘chopped’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds off the front of the 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ footage released that same day… and it was THIS ( shorter ) clip from that original footage that they were about to do this ‘screen capture’ on.
The actual length of the resulting ‘screen recording’ that was uploaded to the Wildfire Today YouTube account was 3 minutes and 39 seconds worth of video and it ends WHILE Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were evacuating and BEFORE they reached that second parking spot on Shrine Road.
This ‘screen recorded’ copy of the video actually ends as Hulburd is still traveling EAST on Shrine Road in his truck and right after the following captured radio conversation…
“Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air to Ground”.
It does not actually capture the REPEATED attempts by John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33′ to contact ‘Division Alpha’ once OPS1 Todd Abel basically had to tell him to get his head out of his ass and actually ORDERED him to respond to those men that were frantically calling him.
The extra 3 seconds ( the discrepancy between the 3:36 length shown in the video bar and the actual 3:39 Youtube video length ) is because the way this person ended the screen recording was to PAUSE the video and then turn off the screen capture. It took them 3 seconds after hitting PAUSE to actually stop the screen capture so the last 3 seconds is just a ‘freeze frame’ of one of the trees seen from Aaron Hulburd’s pickup.
It’s not really clear WHY someone at Wildfire Today felt the need to do a ‘screen recording’ of this short 3 minute and 36 video clip that they obviously already had loaded into some video playery. Maybe they were doing that ‘screen recording’ step just to get it uploaded to YouTube. Maybe that was the only way someone there could figure out how to pull off the YouTube upload, or something.
Here is a direct link to Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG post that this featured this ‘weird’ copy of the original Helmet-Cam SAIT release.
It features the same video at the ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube link above and is the one with the ‘weird images’ at the start showing us that this copy of the video was being created using a ‘screen recording’…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/13/video-captures-the-last-radio-transmissions-from-granite-mountain-hotshots/
PS Do you have any thoughts as to what the fact that this is a screen-recording of this video might mean?
My only thoughts there ( and the only time I have ever witnessed anyone else doing that sort of thing ) are along the lines of simply someone not knowing how to upload to Youtube UNLESS they are using one of those ‘Screen Capture’ programs like EZVIDEO or something that does all the ‘uploading’ automatically.
Some people have NO idea about all these various MP4 and MOV and AVI and WMA movie formats.
I once saw someone doing exactly what appears to have happened with the Wildfire Today ‘cut video’ segment.
They had a video clip already… but then they used something called EZVIDEO to do a ‘screen capture’ of it as well. There is then a big button on EZVIDEO that says ‘Upload to Youtube’ and it does, in fact, do just that. No fuss. No muss.
I asked them why they would be bothering to ‘screen capture’ when they already had a video clip they could upload to Youtube themselves and the answer was…
“I don’t know how to do that. EZVIDEO does it for me.”
So I have really no idea why someone at Wildfire Today would have already had a 3 minute and 26 second ‘cut’ of the video and then still elect to do a ‘screen capture’ and then THAT is what ends up on YouTube.
Doesn’t make any sense, really.
Followup to above post…
One of the other possible ‘explanations’ for someone at Wildfire Today feeling the need to do a ‘screen capture’ of that Helmet-Cam video clip they already had loaded in a Video Player could have had to do with SIZE / FORMAT issues.
If Arizona Forestry gave Wildfire Today a DVD… then first they would have had to extract the video from the DVD ( which they apparently did with something that uses the popular ‘Hanbrake’ video extraction/conversion algorithms ).
Even then… what was extracted might have been in the AVI movie format which means it would have been HUGE… and WAY too big for an upload to YouTube so they could link to it in their BLOG post.
So someone might have simply felt the easiest way to get the video clip into a FORMAT and down to a smaller SIZE for a YouTube upload was to do the ‘screen capture’ move, and then it is now in a FORMAT and SIZE compatible with YouTube.
That’s what products like EZVIDEO do.
As it is doing the actual screen capture… it is automatically coming up with a ‘format’ and and a ‘size’ that lets you then immediately upload the ‘screen capture’ to YouTube without having to know any ‘geeky’ stuff like how to run video format conversion software yourself.
THANK YOU!!!!!!!
Thanks, WTKTT and Bob Powers for the great convo regarding the emerging possibilities of more evidence, the investigations, the conflicts/dances between them, the various possible timelines, etc.
I’ve been away for the past about five days, and wandered in late last night to see what I might have missed. What a surprise!!
So I’ve been re-reading and re-reading, trying to understand what you’re describing, and to digest it, and think more about it.
I have two questions at this point. They both have to do with the idea that, in essence, most everybody was “working for” i.e. “employees of” AZ Fire on that fire, I’m still a little fuzzy about that concept. I do “get” that those who were assigned to “overhead” positions on the Type 2 Short Team would have, thereby, been, legally speaking in this context, considered “employees” of AZ Fire that day.
MY FIRST QUESTION, then, has to do with USFS (and to a lesser but still relevant extent BLM) employees on that fire. We have been assuming, and for good reason, that the reason they were “gagged” by the USFS/BLM was that they came under that “umbrella” that the USFS/BLM has put in place to protect its employees as a result of the post-Thirty-Mile-Fire pre-Cramer-Fire legislation (that I can’t right now off the top of my head remember the Law’s name).
How does that “umbrella of protection” interact with the concept that everybody was “employees” of AZ Fire on this fire?
And, especially, how does that interact with the concept that the Overhead who was assigned to the Type 2 Team was, via that assignment, legally speaking, therefore, employees of AZ Fire on that fire?
(I’m sorta kinda thinking “out loud” here.)
I guess what I’m generally asking here is what, generally, is the situation regarding people who are, basically, federal employees on this fire, in regards to this concept that everybody, especially the Incident Management Team assignees, was, essentially and maybe legally, employed by AZ Fire, once they were assigned to them?
Some of those people could/would have included Dean Fernandez (BLM) on Saturday, when the decision (highly criticized by the ADOSH Report) to assign a Type 2 Short Team was made, Rory Collins (USFS) ATGS both Saturday and Sunday, Rusty Warbis (USFS) Pilot Bravo 3 Sunday (I don’t know where this fits in the IMT framework), Paul Lenmark (BLM) ASM Bravo 3 Sunday, Tom French (USFS) Pilot Bravo 33 Sunday (again I don’t know where this fits in the IMT framework), John Burfiend (USFS) ASM Bravo 33 Sunday, and the various members of the Type 2 Team of Bea Day brought in (are they then also “employees”–somebody had to pay them), including Bea Day (USFS) and Jason Clauson (USFS) who, I think, was a Div S on her team.
I’m feeling really muddy here regarding how these federal employees fit into the concept that everybody was “an employee” of AZ Fire once they were assigned to this fire, and especially those who were assigned as “overhead,” ie.assigned members of the Incident Management Teams(s).
MY SECOND QUESTION that has been bugging me ever since the lawsuits were publicized has to do with all of this is WHY is Central Yavapai Fire Department targetted in the lawsuits????? After reading all you two wrote about all of this, I’m still REALLY stumped regarding this.
If it’s because of Todd Abel, that doesn’t hold if we are determining that the AZ Fire IMT employed him as, first a Div S, and then an OPS, and thus whatever he may or may not have “done wrong” is included under AZ Fire EMPLOYEE accountability.
If it’s because of the TOTALLY incompetent and chaotic and seriously LIFE-THREATENING evacuation of Glen Illah/Yarnell, it seems to me that Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office is WAY MORE at fault.
Marti.. I am actually ON an airplane at at the moment which happens to be in-range of a ground based cell network which isn’t participating in this new promised WiFi support from LEO (Low Earth Orbit) satellites bullshit that you are probably seeing new TV commercials about so I have to make this quick before I lose the ground based pickup…
…but the bottom line is that even the people who were working the fire have no fucking idea HOW they get paid as long as they get paid.
Even the ADOSH people were asking DIVSZ Rance Marquez himself how he was ‘getting paid’ for his participation in the Yarnell fiasco and he told them he had no frickin’ idea.
It’s complicated… but that doesn’t mean there still wasn’t an agency (Arizona Forestry) that wasn’t ultimately responsible for the LEGAL obligation known as ‘assumption of risk’.
More later ( when this frickin’ plane lands ).
Some what complicated were they employees of the State?
We have to first go back to the Co-op Agreements.
As Fire Fighters assigned to the Fire they were requested and working for the State of Arizona. They were contracted employees From other agencies paid at those agencies rates. Covered by those agencies rules and regulations, Liability and insurance. All of this is stipulated in the Co-op Agreement.
As for Pay the Federal government is reimbursed by the State for each fire there people are on. Reimbursement is a yearend type thing for all agencies.
The Federal employees were paid by the Federal government according to each fire charge every 2 weeks out of Federal funding which is then reimbursed by the State.
While they were working for the State on the Fire and being paid by the State for there time The State was not writing individual checks to them.
They were not actual Employees as the term implies.
The Federal Government was still in charge of and responsible for there Pay and other contract agreements.
The State is not in reality there employer but contractor on each Fire and pays the contractor The Government for each use that is billed to the State. Works same with all other agencies.
Woops missed something……
If the State Hires equipment and Temporary employees they are paid direct at the end of the fire or term of employment by the State. Referred to in the Government as AD employees. Finance section writes checks at end of service.
AZ FIRE is the responsible party for all decisions and actions taken on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
All costs incurred are there liability. The Fire team though not there employees per say are responsible to AZ Fire and AZ Fire is responsible for the decisions made by the team.
The State is involved in all decisions made in plans to suppress the fire and a liaison is usually involved with the fire, may not be on the fire but in direct contact with the IC.
If the State and the Fire Team under there direction made bad decisions and caused Fatalities or property loss then they are liable for the Loss. Regardless of who each member of the team is fully employed by. It is a State Fire on State Land Run by the State.
Hope all that helps. You would have to read all the Co-op Agreements to get a feel for how each one works. It is a lot of legal mumbo jumbo for sure, just to share resources.
The State of Arizona gets an IA, the state orders resources, and generally for initial attack it’s closest resources concept (AZ State calls them Local Agency Resources). So the State receives resources from BLM, USFS, and who knows what other agencies, counties or AD/EFF types you might get. Like Bob P says, there are cost share agreements in place prior to fire season with various charge codes created for things like Forest Service assistance to State of Arizona, or Mutual Aid to the State of Arizona, etc. The assigned unique codes coincide with which agency has responsibility for the fire. USUALLY unique P-codes will be created for larger incidents or fires that go into extended attack or past the first operational period.
Then at the end of the fiscal year, the varying agencies are billed for reimbursable expenses, based on the cooperative agreement, and the bean counters have their way. Technically BLM and USFS employees are not ’employees of the State of Arizona” but are eventually paid by them via their home agency.
Marti have you read in the ADOSH material, file name ADOSH Yarnell Fire Investigation then under Cooperative Fire Agreements? Definitely worth a read through if you haven’t before, explains intricacies of fighting fire with multiple agencies under a cooperative agreement–at least for the State of Arizona, because every state is different. Hope I am not muddling this up more for you.
Also WTKTT says “but the bottom line is that even the people who were working the fire have no fucking idea HOW they get paid as long as they get paid.” Why should firefighters understand how the fiscal aspect of getting paid works? That is straight up someone else’s job. If Rance Marquez actually explained how cost share agreements worked during his interview I would have been in shock and awe–why should he understand this? Sure there are basics to it but come on. FMO’s, AFMO’s and up should have a grasp on how funding works and I’m not sure of Marquez’ full time position.
One more thing…Rory Collins is not a USFS employee…he’s an ODF employee, Oregon Department of Forestry and works for Douglas Forest Protective Association out of Douglas, Oregon. So he is not a federal employee and has no umbrella of protection and can talk! He’s not under any gag related order, unless his lawyers have told him to keep it down.
Thanks you saved me trying to remember all the little things that go with it like Mutual Aid agreements Shook out my cobwebs a little.
Thank you for correcting me on Rory Collins’ status! I was definitely assuming that he was un-cooperative with the ADOSH investigation because he was under the USFS “gag order.” So it was a personal decision, on his part, to not cooperate. Hmmmmmm……
And, no, I haven’t read the “Cooperative Fire Agreements” document. I decided it might make my brain hurt more than I really needed in order to understand it. It was hard enough to scour the intertubes enough to gain an understanding of how all the various aircraft on that fire were contracted/flown/paid for/piloted/staffed/owned/etcetera.
But, given this conversation, I might read it this weekend.
Reply to FIRE20+ post on October 17, 2014 at 2:27 pm
>> FIRE20+ said…
>>
>> Why should firefighters understand how the fiscal
>> aspect of getting paid works?
Why should ANYONE understand where their money (really) comes from and WHO they are ever (actually) working FOR?…
Because those are simply pretty good things to know.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> That is straight up someone else’s job.
>> If Rance Marquez actually explained how cost share
>> agreements worked during his interview I would have been
>> in shock and awe–why should he understand this?
>> Sure there are basics to it but come on.
>> FMO’s, AFMO’s and up should have a grasp on how
>> funding works and I’m not sure of Marquez’ full time position.
As of his ADOSH interview… 23 year career with BLM.
At the time of the Yarnell incident…
State Fuel’s Lead – Program Lead for Arizona BLM ( since 2009 ).
He also calls himself a carded ‘Type 2 Burn Boss’, ‘Task Force Leader’,
and ‘Division Supervisor’.
He considers HIMSELF an ‘old fire dog’… but still has no idea about how the actual contracting on fires works?
That really seems a little weird…. and even the Wildland Fire Associates investigators thought so ( and said so during his interview ).
They found it ‘strange’ that he would be in that Arizona BLM office for 4 years and still not really know where his contract money really comes from.
From Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q1: Burce Hanna ( ADOSH )
A: Rance Marquez ( Career BLM employee and DIVSZ in Yarnell )
————————————
35 Q1: So we just want to start with Marq – Mr. Marquez? You want to get his um,
36 background. How long have you worked for BLM?
37
38 A: Twenty three years, since 1988. So you do the math.
39
40 Q1: 1988, okay. What – and where do you work out of?
41
42 A: Right now, I’m out of the Arizona State Office.
43
44 Q1: Which is where?
45
46 A: Phoenix, Arizona.
47
48 Q1: Is it in this building?
49
50 A: We’re sitting in it.
51
52 Q1: Oh, this is your office? Okay.
53
54 A: This is my office, yes.
55
56 Q1: Okay. Can you give us a uh, brief synopsis of your career in firefighting?
57
58 A: Sure. Um, started my career with BLM in Salt Lake City in 1988, uh, went to
59 school Las Cruces, New Mexico and I did the co-op thing back and forth for four
60 years. Uh, once graduated, um, upon graduation, didn’t have room for me in Utah
61 so I moved – I got or I was offered a job in Wyoming. Spent nine years in
62 Wyoming as a Range Land Management Specialist, uh, with regards to the fire
63 side of thing – did – we did a lot of – we – we did a lot of prescribed fire before
64 the advent of the fuels program and the hazard fuels. The big money push um,
65 starting in about, I don’t know, 2000’ish I guess. Um, from Wyoming, I moved
66 on to Burley, Idaho as a Fire Use Specialist in the Twin Falls District. Was there
67 for eight years and um, and then in October of 2009, I took this position as a State
68 Fuel’s Lead – Program Lead for Arizona BLM. Uh, came up through the ranks
69 kind of the old way when – with regards to fire, uh, where the resource staff were
70 supposed to be part of the fire crews as well. Worked my way up and to the point
71 to where uh, Type Two Burn boss with regards to fire qualifications and then um,
72 Division Supervisor.
73
74 Q1: Okay. What other red cards or certif- certification…
75
76 A: Uh…
77
78 Q1: …do you hold?
79
80 A: Task Force Leader. Um, higher stuff, Multiple Single Resource Boss. Um,
81 Qualifications Crew, engine, dozer, uh, firing um, worked in the fire world for a
82 very – very long time. I’ve a lot of experience in Wyoming doing a lot of details
83 with the Wyoming Hot Shots. So um…
84
85 Q1: Okay.
86
87 A: …you could say I’m an old fire dog now I guess.
——————————-
>> Fire20+ also said
>>
>> One more thing…Rory Collins is not a USFS employee…
>> he’s an ODF employee, Oregon Department of Forestry
>> and works for Douglas Forest Protective Association out of
>> Douglas, Oregon. So he is not a federal employee and has
>> no umbrella of protection and can talk! He’s not under any
>> gag related order, unless his lawyers have told him to
>> keep it down.
Oregon is like Arizona.
It is NOT one of the states that has ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for STATE level agencies and employees. Oregon State Agencies ( like Oregon Forestry and any of its employees ) CAN be ‘sued’.
There is, however, a law in Oregon called the “Oregon Tort Claims Act’ ( OTCA ).
It doesn’t establish ‘Sovereign Immunity’ for Oregon State Agencies ( like Oregon Forestry ) or its employees… but it DOES limit the actual AMOUNTS of money that could ever be ‘awarded’ for claims against Oregon agencies. It can get into the single-digit millions of dollars… but not double-digits.
So I am sure anyone who actually works for Oregon Forestry that was in Yarnell that day has been being advised by the Oregon State Attorney’s office.
For what it is worth… here is where ADOSH was asking Rance Marquez
how he was getting ‘paid’ and Marquez didn’t really know much about that…
Page 35 of ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q1 = Bruce Hanna ( ADOSH )
A = Rance Marquez ( Arizona Forestry’s DIVSZ in Yarnell )
————————————————————————
1551 Q1: Okay. Um, got a couple of questions for you. So you’re in cooperative
1552 agreement with the State Forester as far as you – you being used as a resource?
1553
1554 A: Uh, we’re all – no. Uh, BLM cooperates as a cooperating agency with State
1555 Forestry, but uh, we have a NWCG qual- qualifications that we all go through.
1556
1557 Q1: Okay. What I’m getting at is – is Marshall, my supervisor, is asking me how you
1558 are paid for these kind of events when you’re used as a resource.
1559
1560 A: Well, it’s cost – cost reimbursable type.
1561
1562 A: Like in the end?
1563
1564 A: I – I guess. I – that’s a pretty convoluted question. Um…
1565
1566 Q1: Well answer the best you can.
1567
1568 A: Here, being cooperative state, there’s a – well, it used to be anyway, but now
1569 everybody does it’s like – we change – the past – the Forest Service used to
1570 handle the Master Cooperative Agreement and so the Forest Service kind of
1571 brokered over the orders between all agencies and handled who…
1572
1573 Q1: Mm-hm.
1574
1575 A: …got paid what.
1576
1577 Q1: Mm-hm.
1578
1579 A: So this part of the whole fire world is a little bit uh, foreign to me. I’m not in the
1580 – in the finance. I’ve been – I been – I’ve been a grunt and I just put my fire – my
1581 – my code down on my time sheet and…
1582
1583 Q1: Mm-hm.
1584
1585 A: …who gets paid in the end and how the money comes down is a little unknown to
1586 me.
1587
1588 Q1: Really? After four years here?
1589
1590 A: Uh, yeah. Uh, I – cause I don’t do the – I don’t do – I’m not on the business – fire
1591 business side of things.
1592
1593 Q1: Okay.
1594
1595 ((Crosstalk))
1596
1597 A: Although I do know that uh, as far as – I do have an understanding that we bill the
1598 State, they bill us for portions of a predetermined amount of – of dollars. I – I – I
1599 do – or acres burned.
—————————————————————————–
He just goes and fights a fire goes home and gets his pay check every 2 weeks.
He should read the Co-op Agreements and talk to his finance people and parole people its not that complicated.
You get a fire charge number and you use that for all the time you are on the fire any fire any agency the charge number identifies the agency’s fire for records and billing by each agency.
The entire time you are assigned to the fire the time you travel and work is billed to the fire and your agency receives the funds to pay the employees normally prior to the end of the physical year Oct. 30th. for each fire people were on during the summer.
**
** RANCE MARQUEZ VERIFIES THAT PRICE VALLEY HELITAK WAS THERE
While checking to see exactly what ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez told ADOSH about his conversation with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark )… I stumbled on this other section of his interview that I had forgotten about where he tells ADOSH what he did ‘the rest of the day’.
As it turns out… Marquez then VERIFIES that Todd Pedersen and others from ‘Price Valley Helitack’ were, in fact, THERE in Yarnell later in the day and that they WERE assisting with structure protection in the ‘Sickles Road’ area not long before the deployment.
The KEY section is the LAST paragraph down below…
From Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview…
Q3 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ).
A = Rance Marquez.
————————————————————————————
1204 Q3: Okay. So uh, after you had your – your conversation and uh, things were tough
1205 figuring out how to get things going or started or where the division break is, any
1206 of that stuff, it was a tough piece of ground to work or tough piece of ground uh,
1207 to figure out from what I can – from – gather – gather. What – what did you uh,
1208 what did you do the rest of the day?
1209
1210 A: Well after I left the area, I went back to ICP. I tied in with uh, with Mussers. I
1211 didn’t find Todd. Explained to him what I – what I’d found and that there just
1212 wasn’t any good options there cause I couldn’t really raise them on the radios and
1213 about that time, things started to get really busy. Uh, fire intensity picked up um,
1214 tremendously about that time and um, downloaded my information what I had
1215 with Mussers and about that time, Cougan called me back and said there’s some
1216 structures being threatened right there at the junction, just across – not very far
1217 from ICP which was at Peeples Valley. Um, where was it, it was Sickles Road
1218 and something over there.
1219
1220 Q1: Mm-hm.
1221
1222 A: There’s like maybe four or five – four or five structures…
1223
1224 Q1: Sickles up in here?
1225
1226 A: Yeah. So these are being bumped really, really hard.
1227
1228 Q1: We’re in 26 Dave.
1229
1230 Q3: Okay.
1231
1232 A: Um, the fire went from basically a flanking fire up to that time to head fire. Um,
1233 people were in the way. We had to uh, kind of move people out. People were
1234 actually, you know, the – it’s – people were s- asking us whether they should stay.
1235 We’re trying to get people out away from the houses. Um, and about that time,
1236 that’s when I saw who you’re going to interview next, Dan Philbin. I tie in with
1237 him and also about that time, uh, we had – Dan had got a couple – by that time, it
1238 became just a set of independent actions. People were just pulling equipment as it
1239 was rolling in and putting it to work. Had a couple Water Tenders aType 6
1240 Engine. I – uh, folks from Price Helitack came walking up – were walking up
1241 towards the – where we were at. I gave them a ride up. Got people briefed. Um,
1242 so things were pretty ra- going pretty rapid. About that time, um, the divisions
1243 from Bea Day’s Team and uh, Operations Clock uh, Jason Clausen and Kasey
1244 Owl and uh, Robuckie and um, who was the other division? I know them,
1245 because I worked as a trainee um, a division trainee with Bea Day’s Team or
1246 Templin’s Team a couple years before. So…
1247
1248 Q3: And – and they’re arriving at the fire? What – what time is this? I mean, time of
1249 day?
1250
1251 A: Uh, this was getting to be about 3:30, 1530.
————————————————————————————-
So Rance Marquez himself met the ‘Price Helitack’ people circa 3:30 PM.
1240 Folks from Price Helitack came walking up – were walking up
1241 towards the – where we were at. I gave them a ride up. Got people briefed.
A little later in the interview… Marquez then verifies that he was actually ‘sitting’ with
the ‘Price Valley Helicopter crew manager’ Todd Pederson AND some OTHER
members of this mysterious Price Valley Helitack crew…
——————————————————————
1370 A: Right. Just outside of ICP. That’s where, you know, again, uh, things became a
1371 series of just – of just independent actions.
1372
1373 Q3: Okay. Right. Uh, then eventually, at some point, you – you went down to
1374 Yarnell I think, or not?
1375
1376 A: Um, after – well, I – after – after we heard that they uh, after the fire front passed
1377 the structures or was subsided on the structures that we were protecting, there was
1378 a SEAT drop and we kind of organized some mop up, um, I was sitting with uh,
1379 Price uh, with the Price helicopter uh, manager and uh, Price Valley and uh, I
1380 heard uh, Air Attack which I believe later on, I don’t believe it – it was – they had
1381 a – sw- they swapped out Air Attacks. I think Lead 1-1 was actually at the Air
1382 Attack at the time but uh, earlier I heard an air to ground call asking Granite
1383 Mountain if – if they were okay and uh, this was as we were protecting stuff and
1384 as things we were getting busy. Um, I heard them, “Yes. Uh, we’re hunkered in
1385 the black.” That was the response.
1386
1387 Q3: Any idea what time that was?
1388
1389 A: I’ve wrote that down. Um, sometime – sometime between 3:30 – yeah, after 3:30
1390 to 4:00.
1391
1392 You know who that was that uh, made that statement that we’re hunkered in the
1393 black?
1394
1395 A: No. I don’t. The one thing I’m almost certain that it was not Eric. Eric um, was
1396 –was from – from the south, so from North Carolina or something. So I knew
1397 what he sounded like on a radio. It didn’t sound like Eric.
——————————————————————————
So there is Rance Marquez again verifying that it wasn’t just Todd Pedersen that was there in Yarnell that day. Some number of this mysterious ‘Price Valley Helitack’ crew were ALSO there and the interview goes on to establish that they were then used to help protect structures over in the Sickles Road area.
The ‘Resource Orders’ document still says there were ELEVEN ‘Helitack’ crew there that day.
NONE of these ‘Helitack’ crew members ( including Todd Pedersen ) have ( as far as we know ) EVER been interviewed by ANYONE… even though Todd Pedersen himself is now on record as being the first firefighter to publicly admit there WAS radio traffic from Granite Mountain just before the deployment and that he HEARD this traffic.
** MARQUEZ HEARD ( JESSE STEED SAY? ) ‘WE ARE HUNKERED IN THE BLACK’
Notice also just above that this is where Marquez is SURE he heard Air-Attack ( Bravo 33 at that point ) asking Granite Mountain if they were OK over Air-To-Ground ( which would definitely mean it was Burfiend making that call to them ) and then he heard someone from GM announce over the radio that they were, in fact, ‘hunkered in the black’ and obviously had no plans to go anywhere.
Marquez also says he is CERTAIN that it was NOT ‘Eric Marsh’ making this announcement.
Marquez had worked as a ‘Task Force Leader’ for THREE days under DIVS Eric Marsh on the Doce fire and he knew Eric Marsh’s ‘North Carolina’ southern drawl well… and he is ‘almost CERTAIN’ that whoever was announcing they were ‘hunkered in the black’ was NOT Eric Marsh.
So it must have been Jesse Steed himself making THIS ‘announcement’ back to ‘Bravo 33’.
Perhaps that is what eventually led to the possible ‘argument’ between Steed and Marsh.
Steed himself had ‘announced’ they were definitely ‘Hunkered in the black’ and were going to STAY there… but Marsh still had ‘other’ ideas and still had yet to make his ‘sell job’ to Jesse with regards to ‘moving the men’.
** BEA DAY, JASON CLAWSON, AARON HULBURD AND KC ‘BUCKY’ YOWELL AGAIN
Notice also in this section of Marquez’s ADOSH interview where he verifies seeing the ‘Price Valley Helitack’ he ALSO confirms that Bea Day and the ‘off-the-radar’ DIVS hires Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell were also already there in Yarnell.
He also goes on to say that it seemed like KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell himself was still under the impression that THEY might be ‘taking over the fire’ even as late as 3:30 PM.
Apparently… no one was even bothering to inform Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell that it had already been decided to bump the incident up to a ‘Type 1’ team and that Bea Day’s Type 2 team was already ‘obsolete’ and weren’t going to be needed.
——————————————————————
1291 Q3: And – and were you – am I getting this right this by 1530 or so, the uh, Bea Day’s
1292 Team members are starting to show up?
1293
1294 A: Yes. Because their uh, oh shoot. There was folks there, I mean, I – when – when
1295 I – when I uh, got back to ICP, I – I saw Bea’s – Bea there herself, um, talking on
1296 her – on a telephone or – or cell phone rather. Um, the Air Attack, Dan Sullivan
1297 was there. He was helping out, so there was folks um, Aaron Hubbard was the
1298 other division and um, yeah. There was folks from Bea’s tes – Team’s there so I
1299 don’t know what was transpiring behind the scenes. I have no idea, but I did ask
1300 Bucky cause he drove up and – in a UTV and um, asked me who I was and then
1301 he recognized me and we started – we – we chatted very briefly and I asked him if
1302 Bea was going to take over the fire and he kind of said, “Mmm, maybe. We don’t
1303 know.” and then they had to leave because their vehicles were parked at the ICP
1304 across the road north or south of the ICP and they were getting bumped pretty
1305 hard. They thought they were going to – they might – they had to move their
1306 vehicles.
———————————————————–
NOTE the continual ‘misspelling’ of names here with regards to Clawson, Hulburd and Yowell.
Aaron Hubbard = Aaron Hulburd
Bucky = KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell
It is still not documented anywhere exactly WHEN Bea Day and Clawson and Hulburd and Yowell finally understood that they were already ‘obsolete’ that day and whether they realized they were now just ‘freelancing’ on that fire if they ‘jumped in’ to actually DO anything ( which, it seems, they DID do, anyway, and this just added to the total confusion at the command level that day ).
**
** RANCE MARQUEZ’S CONVERSATION(S) WITH ‘BRAVO 3’ AND ERIC MARSH
This is just some ‘followup’ for the post below where I basically shut down my own theory that maybe Marsh was so convinced he was ‘essential’ to directing retardant drops that day that this might have been his primary motivation for making such a risky move to ‘get back to town’.
The following are excerpts from Rance Marquez’s ADOSH interview where he confirms that Marsh DID overhear Air-Attack ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) telling Marquez ( circa 12:15 PM ) they had already decided to lay that ‘desperation’ retardant line across the valley… but that Marsh didn’t seem to express any opinion about it at all… OR then be involved in any way with what ‘Bravo 3’ then proceeded to do with retardant.
Q2 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Barry Hicks
Q3 = Wildland Fire Associates Investigator Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ).
A = ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez
434 Q3: Okay. Uh, how did the chatted a bit uh, conversation – what did – what did you
435 actually talk to uh, Marsh about? Can – can you tell me what that conversation
436 actually was?
437
438 A: Yeah. Sure. Um, you know, we uh, again, my orders were to go in and figure out
439 a division break and uh…
440
441 Q3: Right…
442
443 A: …Eric was kind of hard to get a hold of at first. So I ended up talking to Air
444 Attack first and I don’t know if he wasn’t expecting someone to come in or – or
445 what, and was trying formulate what they were doing cause they were up on the
446 heel and uh, there was a lot of retardant and being flown on the fire at – at that
447 time and you could see the edge of the fire. You could see it – it wasn’t exactly
448 rolling, but it was – it was active. It was kind of a long line of – at that time, kind
449 of backing fire and occasionally it would jump – it – it would stand up a little bit
450 and sit back down and uh, got Air Attack’s point of view on what – what they
451 were doing with retardant, what they hoped to do and then uh, finally got a hold
452 of Eric and basically, I just introduced myself. I had to remind him who I was
453 cause I – he was actually a division on the Doce Fire that I worked on as a Task
454 Force Leader, the ten days before.
Marquez’s testimony at this point matches exactly what Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ( Air Attack Bravo 3 ) said in their own ADOSH interviews.
They ( Warbis and Lenmark ) had ALREADY determined ( circa 12:15 PM ) that the fire was GOING to be headed into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle… and they didn’t see anyone on the south side of the fire doing anything to protect Yarnell… so they had already decided they needed to try and do SOMETHING to protect that town.
Then they SHARED their concerns and this ‘plan’ with ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez.
Marquez said…
450 ( I ) got Air Attack’s point of view on what – what they
451 were doing with retardant, what they hoped to do
Then Marquez pretty much verifies that Marsh had ‘overheard’ pretty much this entire conversation Marquez had with Air Attack ( Warbis and Lenmark in Bravo 3 ).
689 Q2: Uh-huh. And which Air Attack was that you were talking to?
690
691 A: Boy, it was one of the dedicated Air Attacks. I know later that they switched out,
692 but I don’t remember which one it was.
693
694 Q2: Okay. And uh – uh, were – were they in a – a twin engine airplane carrier, could
695 you tell?
696
697 A: I could not tell.
698
699 Q2: Okay. Um, and did um, so you had not been able to contact Eric before you had
700 the conversation with Air Attack, is that correct?
701
702 A: That’s correct.
703
704 Q2: And did uh, did Eric indicate that he uh, overheard the conversation with Air
705 Attack?
706
707 A: That was my understanding from our conversation later when – when he hit me
708 up on the radio. The – my uh, I didn’t have to bring him up on uh, to speed. It
709 was my understanding that he had copied that transmission from Air Attack to –
710 which would make sense uh, in my point of view, since he wasn’t expecting
711 anybody to contact him, really, on – on the ground frequencies. I’m sure he was
712 talking to Air Attack. So he was – he – he had been monitoring air to ground.
The ADOSH investigators then digress a bit but come back to asking Marquez if Division A Eric Marsh expressed any ‘concerns’ about what he had heard Bravo 3 discussing with him.
Marquez said NO… and then basically just then tells them that even though he was sure Marsh had been hearing his entire conversation with Warbis and Lenmark in ‘Bravo 3’… the only ‘concerns’ Marsh was expressing ( which other have described as an argument ) was that Marquez himself was trying to take ‘real estate’ away from HIM without consulting with HIM first.
So Warbis and Lenmark then proceeded ( right away ) with their OWN ‘plan’ to build that long retardant line out in the open fuel ( even though they knew this wasn’t the best idea in the world ) and in their own interview they NEVER mention ‘coordinating’ that with DIVSA Marsh in any way.
So again… I think this is all just more proof that while Marsh *MAY* have still thought ( later in the day ) it was ‘important’ for him to ‘get to town’ to direct retardant drops… it would NOT be because he had been any kind of ‘participant’ in what ‘Bravo 3’ was doing earlier that day.
Marsh simply doesn’t appear to have been involved in directing and/or building that ‘Bravo 3’ retardant line that day.
It remains a mystery, then, what DIVSA Marsh was ACTUALLY doing while all that was happening for those 2 hours and 47 minutes between his known participation in the 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM face-to-face with Frisby and Brown and then his eventual ‘chiming in’ on the radio when SGPS Gary Cordes wanted Blue Ridge to work on that ‘Cutover Trail’ circa 3:32 PM.
**
** HELMET-CAM EXIF DATA
All of the following information below about the ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was suddenly released by the SAIT back on December 13, 2013 has appeared on this forum before in various places… but since the ‘Helmet Cam’ is now being discussed again I thought it was worth assembling this information into one post again.
What is now known as the ‘Helmet Cam Video’ was first released to the media on Friday, December 13, 2013.
The ‘Arizona Republic’ article that ran the video right away says it was actually distributed/released by the Arizona Forestry SAIT investigators…
From the original ‘Arizona Republic’ article that appeared at
10:57 PM on December 13, 2013…
—————————————————————————
The video that includes the radio transmissions of the Granite Mountain Hotshots is part of a release of public records on Friday by the Arizona State Forestry Division. The records are investigative documents that preceded two official reports about the Yarnell Hill Fire, which killed 19 members of the hotshot team.
—————————————————————————
This sudden ‘release’ of the ‘Helmet Cam’ video came just 9 days AFTER the release of ADOSH’s official report.
The SAIR was released on September 28, 2013.
The ADOSH report was released on December 4, 2013.
The full details of this ‘release’ such as WHO actually ‘released’ it ( their NAME ), or WHY it was suddenly released… or WHO knew about its existence outside of the SAIT are all still totally unknown. The video just suddenly ‘appeared’.
Absolutely NO details were provided by the SAIT regarding WHO actually took this video ( we know now it was Prescott FF Aaron Hulburd ), WHERE it was actually taken ( we know now it was in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot ) or exactly WHAT kind of device was used to record this video ( still unknown ).
The only PUBLIC copy ( that I know of ) of this same video that was released by the SAIT on December 13 is the one obtained by InvestigativeMedia reporter John Dougherty and posted to IM’s online Dropbox at this exact link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAA1leT4eVUPeelQRMu2zGCMa/Photos%20and%20Video/HelmetCamVideo%20%28Audio%20of%20GMH%29?dl=0
This ‘Folder’ actually contains THREE files released by the SAIT…
M2U00265.mp4 – 7 minutes and 49 seconds of video/audio.
transcript_video_M2U00265.docx – Someone’s typed transcript of the video.
_README.txt – A small text file someone created that just says the following…
“It appears the timestamp is 6 minutes behind the actual time. This is based
on the correlations of conversations on the air-to-ground frequency in this video
to conversations on victor frequency in the Aerial Firefighting Study videos.”
NOTE: ‘Victor Frequency’ is just a reference to the VHF ‘Air-To-Air’ radio channel
versus the UHF ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
** M2U0065.mp4
The M2Uxxxxx filename prefix is usually associated with files that are being created by ‘Sony’ cameras. We still have no idea what KIND of ‘Helmet Camera’ Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd was using that day but the ‘M2U’ prefix would indicate a ‘Sony’ camera.
The EXIF metadata indicates this COPY of the original was created with a piece of software that uses the Open Source ‘Handbrake’ video encoder/decoder. ‘Handbrake’ is a famous piece of software originally developed to extract videos from DVD disks and is able to ‘change the format’ of the video as it ‘copies’ it.
It is NOT the original video copied directly from whatever ‘device’ was used to create it.
If it was… there would be DEVICE information in the EXIF metadata itself.
There isn’t any ( device information ).
It is definitely an EDITED copy of the original.
The proof is in the difference between the ‘Media Create Date/Time’ and ‘Media Modify Date/Time’ and the ‘Track Create Date/Time’ and ‘Track Modify Date/Time’…
Media Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Media Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Media Duration: 0:07:49
Track Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Track Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Track Duration: 0:07:49
BOTH of these sets of EXIF data say that this COPY of the original was CREATED on December 20, 2013 at 1:34:53.
BOTH of these sets of EXIF data then also say that after this COPY was CREATED… it was MODIFIED and saved back to disk exactly 4 minutes and 17 seconds LATER on December 20, 2013 at 1:39:10.
There is no AUDIT TRAIL information in the EXIF metadata so it’s really impossible to say exactly WHAT ‘editing’ took place during those 4 minutes and 17 seconds between the ‘Create Time’ and the final ‘Modify Time’.
Technically… just the difference between the ‘Create’ time and the ‘Modify’ time don’t really indicate any changes to the original were made at all. You could have a file like this loaded up into a Video Editor and every time you elect to just ‘Save’ the video back to disk the ‘Modify Date/Time’ is still going to change regardless of whether you made any changes or not.
But here is what most LIKELY happened here…
1) Someone had a copy of the original ‘raw’ video with a ‘left of dot’ filename
of M2U00265 exactly the way the Helmet-Cam device named it. The file
EXTENSION ( Letters to the right of the DOT ) were probably still the
original Apple Quicktime MOV format normally used by Sony devices.
2) They used a Video Editing program that also uses the Open Source
‘Handbrake’ Vide encoder/decoder to ‘pull’ that original video off a DVD
and also CONVERT it to the ‘mp4’ video format at the same time.
3) Now they have the CONVERTED (original) video copied off of the DVD
sitting on their own hard drive with the same original device-generated filename
of M2U00265 but a new file extension of ‘mp4’.
4) BOTH The ‘Creation Date/Time’ and the ‘Modify Date/Time’ values for this
COPY of the video have now been set to 2013:12:20 01:34:53. The ‘Create Date’
values and the ‘Modify Date’ values would now forever remain the SAME unless
you call the video up in an editor, make changes, and SAVE it back to disk.
The ‘Create Date’ values will still remain the moment it was ‘Created’ on your
hard drive but the ‘Modify Date’ values would then change.
5) Someone now called this fresh COPY of the original video into a Video
Editor and, for the next 4 minutes and 17 seconds, made CHANGES to it.
6) After 4 minutes and 17 seconds of ‘editing’ this copy of the original, they
SAVED it back to disk again… and now THAT ‘edited’ copy was the one
distributed by the SAIT.
So that is what PROBABLY happened… as per the EXIF metadata that
is still embedded in this COPY of the original video.
It’s unfortunate that the EXIF standard does NOT have a field with the
name “Original Media Duration”. If it did… then not only would you be able
to see the TIME difference between when a file was CREATED and/or MODIFIED,
you would also be able to compare the LENGTHS between what it was when
the file was first CREATED… to what it currently is after being MODIFIED.
But simply those 4 minutes and 17 seconds between when the original was
actually CREATED on someone’s hard drive and when it was MODIFIED
do, in fact, indicate that SOME kind of ‘editing’ took place.
** The TRANSCRIPT
Perhaps the additional proof that the video released by the SAIT is just an ‘edited’ copy of the original ‘raw footage’ lies in the TRANSCRIPT that was also released by the SAIT along with the video.
At the top of that TRANSCRIPT we see the following…
————————————————————-
Transcript of video M2U00265.MPG
Date Modified: 6/30/2013 4:33:12 PM
————————————————————-
Notice this ‘Date Modified’ entry that someone from the SAIT left at the top of the Transcription file.
It seems to be an exact copy of the ‘Date Modified’ field that would have been present in the EXIF metadata for the actual ORIGINAL footage and it indicates that ( according to the Helmet-Cam’s onboard clock ) the original video was created a 4:33.12 PM on June 30, 2013.
The _README.TXT file that someone from the SAIT wrote acknowledges that this TIME is WRONG and is actually about ‘6 minutes’ behind the REAL time… but my point here would be this…
That ‘Date Modified’ EXIF value is NOWHERE in the EXIF metadata of the copy of this video that was ‘released’ by the SAIT.
That indicates there has always been some OTHER ‘original’ raw-footage file that contained the correct ‘June 30, 2013’ EXIF data for the ‘Create’ and ‘Modified’ EXIF header fields.
Here is the complete EXIF metadata embedded in the ‘Helmet Cam’ video that was released by the SAIT and is sitting in the online Dropbox…
————————————————————————
File Name: M2U00265.mp4
Directory: C:/HelmetCamVideo (Audio of GMH)
File Size: 86 MB
File Modification Date/Time: 2014:01:14 21:42:06-06:00
File Access Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Creation Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Permissions: rw-rw-rw-
File Type: MP4
MIME Type: video/mp4
Major Brand: MP4 v2 [ISO 14496-14]
Minor Version: 0.0.0
Compatible Brands: mp42, isom, avc1
Movie Data Size: 89614927
Movie Data Offset: 168
Movie Header Version: 0
Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Time Scale: 90000
Duration: 0:07:49
Preferred Rate: 1
Preferred Volume: 100.00%
Preview Time: 0 s
Preview Duration: 0 s
Poster Time: 0 s
Selection Time: 0 s
Selection Duration: 0 s
Current Time: 0 s
Next Track ID: 3
Track Header Version: 0
Track Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Track Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Track ID: 1
Track Duration: 0:07:49
Track Layer: 0
Track Volume: 0.00%
Image Width: 853
Image Height: 480
Graphics Mode: srcCopy
Op Color: 0 0 0
Compressor ID: avc1
Source Image Width: 720
Source Image Height: 480
X Resolution: 72
Y Resolution: 72
Compressor Name: JVT/AVC Coding
Bit Depth: 24
Color Representation: nclc 6 1 6
Pixel Aspect Ratio: 32:27
Video Frame Rate: 29.958
Matrix Structure: 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1
Media Header Version: 0
Media Create Date: 2013:12:20 01:34:53
Media Modify Date: 2013:12:20 01:39:10
Media Time Scale: 48000
Media Duration: 0:07:49
Media Language Code: und
Balance: 0
Audio Format: mp4a
Audio Channels: 2
Audio Bits Per Sample: 16
Audio Sample Rate: 48000
Track 2 Name: Stereo
Handler Type: Metadata
Encoder: HandBrake 0.9.9 2013051800
Avg Bitrate: 1.53 Mbps
Image Size: 853×480
Rotation: 0
————————————————————————
One final NOTE…
The Creation DATE for this file that ended up being released by the SAIT to ‘InvestigativeMedia’ was made a full WEEK AFTER the copy of the video that was released to the MEDIA.
The SAIT released some ‘copy’ of this original ‘Helmet Cam’ video footage to the general MEDIA on Friday, December 13, 2013.
The ‘Creation Date’ for this copy that was released to FOIA / FOIL requests was made a WEEK LATER on Friday, December 20, 2013.
Strange.
Indicates even MORE differences between what was initially released to the media and what was then sent out in response to FOIA / FOIL requests.
Awesome research, thank you!!
I’m tripping over this:
“File Modification Date/Time: 2014:01:14 21:42:06-06:00
File Access Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00
File Creation Date/Time: 2014:10:13 02:57:50-05:00”
What does that mean?
Marti.. those particiular fields in the EXIF data mean nothing. They will ALWAYS represent simply the moment that particular copy of that bodyset was saved to disk and/or unzipped.
All you are seeing there is proof that I, myself, downloaded a fresh copy of the online video just prior to the posting of the other ‘original’ EXIF’ data that is embedded in the data.
Got it, thx! That’s what I was sorta kinda thinking……
I was contacted by two WFF that had engaged on the YHF to inform me the following: They were both independently contacted by ADOSH? Investigator(s) in the past few weeks and told that ADOSH? was about to release another 42-43 minutes of ADDITIONAL “HELMET CAM VIDEO” as the result of a formal records request.
One of the WFF claimed that this new footage would be “damaging to Marsh.” So, in order for it to be “damaging to Marsh” it would have to be footage PRIOR to the one we have all seen. Remember back when it was first released on IM and there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?
I was led to believe that this new footage would be kind of ‘officially released’ when I asked if it was going to be posted on YouTube.
Though it has always seemed a little strange that the Helmet-Cam actually just ‘starts up’ in the MIDDLE of that conversation that John Burfiend was having ( with SOMEONE? ) where he is then saying “It’s gonna be hard on us with that valley and all that smoke… but we’ll do the best we can”… it could also be said that it has always been a little strange that Aaron Hulburd would just sort of ‘reach up’ and turn his Helmet-Cam on with his hand when his helmet was already on his head.
Depending on what kind of Helmet-Camera it was ( no details have ever been released about that, either )… it would be more likely that if we had always been seeing the full video that first we would see some ‘garbage’ as Hulburd took his Helmet OFF… turned the camera ON… and then put it back ON his head again.
That is, in fact, exactly the way we see Hulburd turn his Helmet-Camera OFF.
The video ENDS with Hulburd not simply reaching up to turn that Helmet-Camera OFF… we actually see him take his helmet OFF, place it on top of his truck, and only THEN does he reach to the Helmet and turn the camera OFF ( If that really was the END of that video ).
If there really are even just 120 seconds MORE video at the START of Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video… then we should also be hearing that reported ‘callout’ from Eric Marsh on the A2G channel where he supposedly tells ‘Bravo 33’… “That’s exactly where we want the retardant”.
It is still perfectly possible that even that conversation we DO hear at the beginning of that part of the Helmet-Cam that WAS released is simply the END of the conversation that Burfiend actually had with Eric Marsh starting 120 seconds earlier at 1637.
Burfiend has always been telling SOMEONE “We’ll do the best we can but it’s gonna be hard on us”.
We have never known WHO that really WAS he was saying that too.
It COULD have been Eric Marsh.
The Key to all this extra investigation Information that was collected but not released
is the law suits.
If the helmet cam or other video/audio is out there and collected in the investigation
if it is not damaging to the person or persons named in the suit then it would be subject to release before the law suit goes to court.
Prescott and Marsh/Steed are not named in the Families Law Suit.
ADOSH could release additional investigative information collected. It is possible they have received further information sense there original investigation that they did not have in the original investigation. We have or WTKTT has found a lot that was not released in the first investigation or the State did not receive in there’s
I think we will see a lot more coming out soon I hope.
Both sides should have provided names and all information they plan to use in the Law suit for each other and the court by now. The investigators will have released all of the evidence collected to the Attorneys by now as well.
Sooner or later we will get the facts.
Reply to Bob Powers post October 12, 2014 at 7:21 am
>> Bob Powers wrote…
>>
>> The Key to all this extra investigation Information that was
>> collected but not released is the law suits.
Yes… but there is also something else very important happening right now that would explain ADOSH, themselves, trying to investigate even further and seek even NEW evidence.
Arizona Forestry has officially ‘challenged’ their findings.
AZF has requested an official ‘review’ of the original ADOSH findings which starts with a ‘hearing’ in front of the standard ADOSH review board to even determine if there is any validity to the challenge of the findings.
Mr. Dougherty has already told us that initial ‘challenge hearing’ is in November ( the 17th ). It isn’t showing up yet on ADOSH’s own PUBLIC calendar or schedule… but the closer we get to it… it WILL appear there and it SHOULD actually be ‘open to the public’ unless they decide to go into ‘executive session’ to discuss the challenge.
In the meantime… you can bet that all the ADOSH investigators are also working as hard as they can to review their original evidence AND discover NEW evidence that would support the already-issued ONE Willful and TWO Serious violations ( $70,000 + 2 times $7,000 = $84,000 ).
And there was a LOT that ADOSH didn’t know, first time around.
Arizona Forestry was making it as hard as they could for them to even have all the evidence THEY had… and then they turn around and say that ADOSH’s findings were ‘not substantiated by evidence’. Nice try, AZF.
Just one example: The SAIT made it as difficult as possible for anyone to even discern from THEIR publicly released FOIA / FOIL material that Bea Day team off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ( all from Prescott ) were even THERE in Yarnell that day… much less playing a KEY ROLE in the capture of radio traffic and the actual ground search mission that discovered the bodies.
ADOSH never interviewed any of these men… because they really were not even sufficiently informed ( by AZ Forestry ) of their presence or their involvement.
They were not just ‘bystanders’ that afternoon.
Between their activities on Shrine road ( we still don’t even know what these three ‘freelancers’ were even doing there or who sent them to the Shrine area and for what purpose ), their witnessing of the FF evacuations from the Youth Camp, their capture of critical deployment-related radio traffic, and their direct involvement in the ground rescue mission that ended up at the deployment site itself… that makes these men KEY WITNESSES that ADOSH never even had the chance to talk to because they didn’t even really know they were THERE that afternoon.
That’s just ONE example of how the SAIT was making it hard for ADOSH to do a complete job in their original investigation.
So yes… the ‘discovery’ phase of the civil litigation is ongoing… but so is the ‘extra investigation’ on the part of ADOSH because their own findings are being officially ‘challenged’.
It’s really hard to understand Arizona Forestry’s ‘strategy’ here.
If they really do just want this to ‘go away’ and have everyone just ‘move along’… they have screwed up pretty badly.
ADOSH was basically ‘done investigating’ before they even finished their first round of interviews. The ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) interview alone actually has enough evidence in it to justify all THREE of the ‘citations’ that ADOSH eventually issued.
Once they had arrived at those THREE citations ( ONE Willful and TWO Serious ) and realized they had enough evidence to peg the meter on their own maximum fines that could be imposed… they really had no incentive to keep digging to find ALL the evidence and/or ALL the ‘points of failure’ in Yarnell that weekend.
Well… now they do.
By CHALLENGING their findings… Arizona Forestry simply gave ADOSH all the justification they needed to allocate more time and resources to investigating the incident even FURTHER and try to ‘discover’ things they might not have even known before.
NOTE: There are even a few emails in ADOSH FOIA / FOIL release that show ADOSH lead Marshall Krotenberg acknowledging that they already had all the evidence they need to issue those THREE citations and call it a day. The additional $23,000 times 19 penalties were also already justified and ‘at the max’ even with the evidence they DID have. So even ADOSH knew they had ‘arrived’ at basically being able to ‘throw the book’ at Arizona Forestry before they had even completed all their scheduled interviews.
I’m not sure Arizona Forestry thought this through.
If they really did just want this to ‘go away’ and have people ‘move along’ with their own explanation of “We’ll never know what really happened”…
…then they should have just paid the fines.
Even the $84,000 for the ONE Willful and TWO Serious violations was/is going to be just ‘funny money’. The only thing that will even happen there is that money simply ‘transfers’ from one Arizona State ‘budget’ account to another. Basically… Arizona just takes one pile of $84,000 worth of taxpayer dollars and ‘moves’ it from one set of State ‘books’ ( AZF ) to another ( ADOSH ).
The 19 times $23,000 death benefit payments WOULD actually leave the Arizona State coffers and end up ‘with the families’ ( most of whom are just Arizona taxpayers, anyway )…. but the $84,000 was/is never going to ‘leave the State bank’, so to speak.
So, on one hand, it really is hard to understand Arizona Forestry’s strategy.
On the other hand… perhaps it is quite obvious.
The civil lawsuits are BASED on the ADOSH findings ( not the SAIR ).
Arizona Forestry’s first ( and best ) option for fighting the civil litigation is to actually WEAKEN, or even NEGATE the ADOSH findings.
Hence… the challenge of the findings.
If they can get ANY of the findings to be ‘mitigated’ or even ‘withdrawn’.. .then they stand a MUCH better chance in civil court.
But I still think the Arizona Attorney General’s office has screwed up in their ‘advisement’ to AZF. I think they forgot that it *might* get even WORSE for them if ADOSH keeps ‘digging’ and finds out things were even more screwed up in Yarnell that weekend then even their initial investigation revealed.
If Arizona Forestry really wanted to ‘make it all go away’ and have people ‘move along’ without ever really knowing what happened in Yarnell…
…they should have just paid the fines and ‘settled’ the suits.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> If the helmet cam or other video/audio is out there and collected
>> in the investigation… if it is not damaging to the person or persons
>> named in the suit then it would be subject to release before the
>> law suit goes to court.
>> Prescott and Marsh/Steed are not named in the Families Law Suit.
I have said before that given the circumstances NOW ( and the list of defendants named or not named in the civil lawsuits )… it would behoove BOTH sides of the courtroom to know the TRUTH about what happened in Yarnell for that entire weekend.
I believe the plaintiffs ( the families ) decided not to name Prescott or Willis or the estate of Eric Marsh or Jesse Steed for TWO reasons.
1) Prescott DOES have that ‘limited liability’ ‘get out of responsibility free’ card as related to worker’s comp and the inherent ‘statuatory limitations’ there when it comes to being held responsible for deaths in the workplace involving Prescott employees OR the decisions their own employees make. It would have been a VERY tough road to go to try and override that ‘get out of responsibility free’ card Prescott could play and the attorneys for the families rightly advised their clients of this fact.
2) The families themselves probably weren’t interested in ‘going after’ anyone on the Granite Mountain crew or even the City of Prescott. They DO want to know ‘what really happened’… but probably the majority of them just didn’t want to include Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Darrell Willis… or any of the other ‘chain of command’ from Prescott in the litigation,. The language of the lawsuits themselves goes out of its way to PRAISE the Granite Mountain Hotshots. It didn’t have to… so that probably represents the feelings of a majority of the plaintiffs that they ever put that language in the suit itself.
So the PLAINTIFFS need/want to know the full TRUTH because that is actually stated in their filings. It is one of the stated REASONS they felt they had to file the suits in the first place. They really, truly DO want to know ‘exactly what happened’ in Yarnell that weekend and Arizona Forestry (apparently) does NOT.
The DEFENDANTS need/want to know the full TRUTH because their strategy is probably to deflect blame away from the ‘named defendants’ onto people/organizations that are NOT ‘named defendants’.
In other words… if Arizona Forestry can’t get the ADOSH findings mitigated ( or negated ) then the backup plan might be to throw Eric Marsh and/or Jesse Steed and/or the entire Prescott Wildland Division under the bus… but in order to do THAT… they, also, really DO need to know what REALLY happened that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> ADOSH could release additional investigative information
>> collected. It is possible they have received further information
>> sense there original investigation that they did not have in the
>> original investigation.
Yes. See above. Arizona Forestry themselves gave ADOSH all the incentive they needed to allocate more resources to CONTINUING the investigation the moment they officially ‘challenged’ their ‘original investigation’ and actually said in their own ‘letter of challenge’ that the reason they were issuing the ‘challenge’ itself is because THEY ( AZF ) felt the ADOSH findings were (quote) “not based on substantive evidence”.
So one Arizona State Agency that seems to have been actually withholding ‘evidence’ is now accusing another Arizona State Agency of arriving at false conclusions because they didn’t have enough evidence.
Good luck with THAT argument.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> We have or WTKTT has found a lot that was not released
>> in the first investigation or the State did not receive in there’s.
>> I think we will see a lot more coming out soon I hope.
Probably so.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Both sides should have provided names and all information
>> they plan to use in the Law suit for each other and the court
>> by now.
Normally… yes… but I still think the Arizona Attorney General’s office is advising Arizona Forestry that their best bet is to FIRST see if they can get the ADOSH findings ‘mitigated’ or even ‘negated’. THAT will really affect their strategy in the civil litigations… so I will bet Arizona Forestry is really holding back on that normal ‘discovery’ phase of the civil litigation until they find out what happens with their ADOSH ‘challenge’.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The investigators will have released all of the evidence
>> collected to the Attorneys by now as well.
One would hope so… but the ‘behind-the-scenes gamesmanship’ on the part of Arizona Forestry could very well be ‘off the charts’ on this one. They could still be trying to “hold their cards close to their chest” until they see if they can knock down any of the ADOSH findings.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Sooner or later we will get the facts.
There really is no doubt about that.
I wish Arizona Forestry would realize this fact and just ‘come clean’.
It might make a horrible headline for them for everyone to someday learn they have actually always been withholding HUGE amounts of evidence related to this incident… but in the end… telling the TRUTH is always the way to go. Even if there really is NOT much they have ever been ‘withholding’ it would still behoove them to deal with this lingering impression on the part of both the families AND the ‘public’ that they ARE ‘hiding things’. A lot of people have lost a lot of faith in this completely taxpayer-funded agency known as ‘Arizona Forestry’… and they have a lot of ‘repair’ work to do.
If there really ARE upwards of 42 to 43 minutes of additional Aaron Hulburd ‘Helmet-Cam’ video… then that means we COULD actually get ‘answers’ to some ‘mysteries’ that are already in the known evidence record going back as far as 1556 or 1555 ( 3:55 PM ).
That would cover the time even BEFORE Steed and the crew left the safe black and also covers the ENTIRE range or time where Arizona Forestry has tried to get us to believe there was a ‘communications blackout’ with Granite Mountain.
Everyone knows (now) that there was no such 37 minute ‘blackout’ as Arizona Forestry was trying to get us to believe at first.
People WERE communicating directly with Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and Granite Mountain during this critical time they were ‘moving’.
If Aaron Hulburd was scanning all of the same TAC and A2G channels he was in the part of the Helmet-Cam that we can ALREADY hear then we might actually finally have ‘call signs’ and clarifying como for all the following ‘mysteries’….
1) How did Eric Marsh really RESPOND to his direct supervisor’s ORDER to ‘Hunker and be safe’? Did he AGREE to do so… or did he, right then and there, actually say he had no intentions of having himself or his resources ( Steed and the other 17 men ) doing any such thing?
2) Exactly WHO was receiving these vague “We are headed to the ranch’ transmissions that remain a pile of confusion in the SAIR report? What, exactly, was Marsh telling these people and WHY did they not fully understand he meant he was going SOUTH to the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’?
3) Did ‘Bravo 33’ really go check on their location, or not? This is still totally vague and unresolved in both the SAIR and ADOSH reports.
4) At 4:16 PM… is that really John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ telling someone (WHO?) on the ground that he DID see GM ‘behind those hills there’ and that they kept saying they were ‘comfortable’ but he didn’t find that ‘credible’ so he asked this same SOMEONE on the ground to “Ask them if DIVS is actually WITH them, or not”?
5) Again… at 4:16 PM… WHO is that person who actually calls directly to ‘Granite Mountain’ and asks them what their STATUS is… but DIVSA Eric Marsh intecepts that callout and answers it before the actual acting Superintendent of Granite Mountain ( Jesse Steed ) had a chance to respond?
6) What ELSE was said circa 4:16 to 4:18 over the TAC channels that is obviously there in the Panebaker videos but there is too much foreground noise to make out what is being said?
7) At exactly 4:27 PM… WHO was Eric Marsh now ‘reporting to’ and assuring them that Granite Mountain was ‘on their way’ ( and NOT in the safe black ) and they were ‘coming from the heel of the fire’? Is that person the same person who seems to be urging them to HURRY at the start of the same YARNELL-GAMBLE video where we definitely hear Eric Marsh reporting that GM was NOT ‘in the safe black’ anymore?
8) WHO was John Burfiend really talking to at the very start of the part of the Helmet-Cam video we can already hear? WHY was Burfiend saying “We’ll do the best we can but it’s gonna be tough on us because of that valley and all that smoke”? Was it Eric Marsh? Was it OPS1 Todd Abel?
9) WAS there really an EMERGENCY call on a TAC channel PRIOR to the 3 MAYDAY calls on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel that we can already hear in the part of the Helmet-Cam already released? If so… WHO was this EMERGENCY callout actually directed to and WHY does it seem like even THAT callout went unanswered that day?
That isn’t even a complete list of the ‘mysteries’ in the critical timeframe that still need to be resolved.
ALSO NOTE: If Aaron Hulburd actually kept his Helmet Camera running for LONGER than it would seem ( or turned it back on again )… did he capture the ADDITIONALY callouts from Eric Marsh that have been reported? As late as 1648 ( a full NINE minutes after the initial A2G MAYDAY from Steed ) Helicopter ‘Five Kiloi Alpha’ was telling Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ that he though ‘Division A just called you’. Does that really mean that Eric Marsh was still alive as late as 1648 ( 4:48 PM ) that day?
The SAIT has always tried to establish that the men died within 2 minutes of the last transmission from Marsh and is the reason they ‘had no other choices to make’.
If that really was Eric Marsh still trying to contact ‘Bravo 33’ as late as 1648… then that changes all the SAIT findings.
Followup…
One of the biggest ‘mysteries’ that still needs to eventually ‘resolve’ is whether there really was that ‘argument’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed about “which way to go”, as reported by the head of the SAIT investigation himself ( Mike Dudley ) to a room full of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014.
The reason I left that out of the ‘short’ list of mysteries that *might* get resolved with some additional Helmet-Cam footage is because Aaron Hulburd did NOT seem to have Granite Mountain’s private intra-crew frequency programmed into his radio.
We do NOT know, for sure, if he did or not.
He actually MIGHT have.
Aaron Hulburd was from Prescott ( along with his other off-the-radar buddies Jason Clawson and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ).
ALL of these men knew Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, Darrel Willis, Granite Mountain, Tony Sciacca, Marty Cole, etc. etc.
They were part of the ‘Prescott gang’ that was all over the place in Yarnell that day.
Aaron Hulburd ( and ALL these men ) had also worked other fires along with Marsh, Steed and GM… even as late as a week before Yarnell on the ‘Doce’ fire near Prescott.
So ANY of this ‘Prescott gang’ ( Aaron Hulburd included ) *might* have actually had the GM intra-crew programmed into their radios.
What I mean is…
Just because we don’t hear any GM intra-crew radio traffic coming over Aaron Hulburd’s BK radio during the part of the Helmet-Cam that has already been released doesn’t mean we *might* not actually hear some of that GM intra-crew traffic in OTHER parts of Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam footage ( if that footage really exists ).
So the alleged ‘argument’ between Marsh and Steed *might* actually have been captured by Aaron Hulburd.
It’s possible.
WTKTT–
My summation of the State is if they can prove that Marsh and no one else caused the fatal decision then they lose all blame for the Families Multi Million dollar clams. If they have that evidence in the Head cam Video or a copied video came that is or was in passion of a family member as we discussed a couple of months ago. Then they may have enough evidence to switch the blame and as you say throw Marsh/Steed, Willis and Prescott under the Bus. Their disclaimer of liability may not stand up in court.
I have seen a lot of cities sued here in Idaho never herd of a disclaimer of liability for their employees, but then Arizona is a different Cat.
Thanks for reminding me of the Arizona Forestry challenge I forgot about that. That could have triggered a whole bunch of investigation activity.
We may be just hearing the beginning of additional information to be released.
The Original investigation will prove to be the alkali’s heal for the State Forestry and fall back on the SAIT shoulders for a terrible investigation done to fast and a lot of cover up to protect who ever.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 12, 2014 at 2:41 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> My summation of the State is if they can prove that
>> Marsh and no one else caused the fatal decision
>> then they lose all blame for the Families Multi
>> Million dollar clams.
That is NOT the case.
At 10:30 AM on the morning of June 30, 2013, someone named Eric Marsh officially became ‘Division A’ and a direct member of the State of Arizona’s fire management team and a direct ‘contracted employee’ of the State of Arizona. His appointment to that fire management position was fully known and fully approved by the other State of Arizona managers/employees that were also working for the State of Arizona in Yarnell that day.
Actually… EVERYONE who was working the Yarnell fire that day can be legally considered an ‘Employee of the State of Arizona’ but even if you could nitpick an Engine or a crew and their actual ‘contractor/subcontractor’ legal status… certainly the MANAGEMENT team itself all had that ‘official’ employment status that day.
The State of Arizona OWNED that fire.
They were the top-level EMPLOYER that day.
They officially ( and legally ) entered into what is called an ‘assumption of risk’ situation and were then totally responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the safety of everyone working there.
So just ‘throwing Eric Marsh ( their own Division A manager ) under the bus’ probably isn’t going to help them.
Indeed… if Arizona Forestry can PROVE ( with evidence that maybe only they still even know about ) that the ‘negligence’ that led to the deaths in their workplace was the sole authorship and responsibility of their own ‘Division A’ employee… then they have basically just nailed THEMSELVES to the wall, anyway.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they have that evidence in the Head cam Video
>> or a copied video came that is or was in passion
>> of a family member as we discussed a couple of
>> months ago. Then they may have enough evidence
>> to switch the blame and as you say throw
>> Marsh/Steed, Willis and Prescott under the Bus.
Yes. They *MAY* actually already have that kind of evidence and regardless of what I just said above… the ‘backup’ plan might be to try and throw Eric Marsh ( and or Jesse Steed ) ‘under the bus’ and deflect responsibility onto people not named in the lawsuit.
However… that is probably only the BACKUP plan.
The PRIMARY plan is most likely to still prove that NO ONE ( not even their own Division A employee ) committed any ‘negligence’ that would get around the statutory limitations of Workers Comp which say that UNLESS there is a certain level of ‘negligence’ involved… the lawsuits are invalid and the ‘Exclusive Result’ clauses and compensation of regular Workers Compensation Insurance must be considered by all parties to be the ‘end of the story’.
I’ve tried to explain this before… but let me try again.
Some States have granted themselves ( and ALL State employees ) absolute immunity under the ‘Sovereign Immunity’ laws. It means you can’t sue any State Agency for ‘wrongful death’ no matter what happens.
Arizona is NOT one of those States.
In the case of Yarnell… the State of Arizona was simply the defacto ‘Employer’ on June 30, 2013 and can most certainly be sued just like any other ‘Employer’ if really, really bad things happen and it can be proven it was due to negligence on their part or on the part of any one of their ’employees’.
The only distinction the State of Arizona makes in its own laws about whether you are suing a State Agency or a Private Company ( or a private person ) is that any ‘wrongful death’ cases must be filed within ONE year of the incident instead of TWO years if the defendant is NOT a ‘Public Entity’.
That’s why the families had to file the ‘wrongful death’ suits in late June… just before the one year anniversary of Yarnell. They didn’t have TWO years like they would if the ‘defendants’ weren’t ‘public agencies’.
The bottom line here is that it all comes down to ‘negligence in a workplace’ and WHO was ultimately responsible for that ‘workplace’ and the people hired to work in it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their disclaimer of liability may not stand up in court.
If the State of Arizona thought there was no liability on their part I don’t think they wouldn’t even be challenging the ADOSH findings.
The fines imposed by ADOSH are really just peanuts compared to what they might be ‘on the hook’ for when the dust clears.
The reason they HAVE to challenge the ADOSH findings is because they KNOW they are ‘liable’ here.
Those ADOSH findings established both the ‘Willful’ and the ‘Serious’ acts of NEGLIGENCE that were required in order for the civil litigation to proceed. The ADOSH report is what lifted all of this out of the normal ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause of Workers Compensation Insurance… so they HAVE to attack those findings.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> I have seen a lot of cities sued here in Idaho never
>> herd of a disclaimer of liability for their employees,
>> but then Arizona is a different Cat.
The ‘get out of responsibility free’ card I was referring to above is nothing more than this business with Workers Compensation Insurance and that ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clause that is in it.
Prescott has ( in their back pocket ) what any other Municipality or Employer who is using ‘Workers Compensation Insurance’ has.
If something really bad happens to an ’employee’… the ONLY time civil litigation like ‘wrongful death’ will be allowed to proceed is if the plaintiff’s can prove that some level of ‘negligence’ was involved that then negates the ‘statutory limitations’ and ‘Exclusive Remedy’ clauses and compensation built into Workers Compensation itself.
The ADOSH report did just that… but we are still talking about an ‘unsafe workplace’ and some proven ‘negligence’ in that workplace on the part of an EMPLOYER.
Prescott’s ‘get out of responsibility free’ card is really nothing more than them being able to prove that THEY were NOT the actual ‘Employers’ that day nor were they responsible for the safety of that workplace down there in Yarnell.
The lawyers for the plaintiffs pretty much wisely advised their clients what a hard road it would be to name the City of Prescott in the lawsuits for what happened in Yarnell itself.
Whatever Prescott ’employees’ were in Yarnell that day were now actually officially ’employed’ by the State of Arizona and it was Arizona Forestry that had taken on the ‘assumption of risk’ and was now responsible for the safety of that (particular) workplace.
To try and hold Prescott liable… the lawyers probably advised their clients that this would mean having to prove the kind of ‘negligence’ that they WOULD be ultimately responsible for such as poor training under their own programs or allowing unqualified people to be contracted out at levels they shouldn’t have been… or to somehow prove that THEY ( as Employers ) KNEW about some kind of ongoing ‘safety issues’ with Granite Mountain and they ( as their ongoing Employer ) weren’t doing anything about it.
That is the ‘hard road to go’. That would get really, really nasty and involve a lot of people testifying about the entire Prescott Wildland Division and its programs and employees and such.
So the families decided to ‘not go there’ ( even if there are things there that COULD be proved about Granite Mountain being some kind of ‘accident waiting to happen’ and even the City knew about it but was letting them continue to take contracts, anyway ).
The families decided to just focus on what happened on June 30, 2013, and where the ‘negligence’ was on THAT day… in THAT particular workplace where they all died.
That doesn’t mean that anything and everything to do with Granite Mountain’s training and the way that program was being run will NOT come out during the litigation. It still might. It just means that the lawyers were being honest with the families about Prescott having this self-proclaimed ‘get out of responsibility free’ card because of the rules and regs of Workers Compensation.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Thanks for reminding me of the Arizona Forestry
>> challenge I forgot about that. That could have triggered a
>> whole bunch of investigation activity.
I’m sure it has.
Marshall Krotenberg is no wilting flower himself.
He’s a career safety professional and he is not going to ‘lay down’ for anyone who disagrees with his findings. He prides himself on ‘getting it right’ and he believes he already HAS so I’m sure he’s preparing for this ‘challenge’ from Arizona Forestry as best as he can.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> We may be just hearing the beginning of additional
>> information to be released.
We still don’t know if this ‘challenge hearing’ is going to be ‘behind closed doors’ or not.
I imagine it probably will be. ADOSH will probably go into ‘executive session’ for that during their PUBLIC meeting and then the only way to see what ‘additional evidence’ was being presented by Arizona Forestry will be to go the FOIA / FOIL route.
Whatever is presented by AZF in that ‘challenge hearing’ WILL, eventually, be available via FOIA / FOIL and Arizona Public Records laws… but maybe not right away.
I just think its going to be ironic if the ‘new evidence’ that Arizona Forestry says it wants to present to help mitigate or negate the ADOSH findings ends up just being the very same evidence they were SUPPOSED to be sharing with ADOSH in the first place.
The whole thing could actually backfire on them.
ADOSH might be busy discovering ( right now ) that things were even MORE screwed up in Yarnell than even they realized during their FIRST investigation and whatever ‘evidence’ AZF presents at the hearing might be countered with even MORE evidence of ‘negligence’ than ADOSH even had the first time around.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The Original investigation will prove to be the alkali’s
>> heal for the State Forestry and fall back on the
>> SAIT shoulders for a terrible investigation done
>> to fast and a lot of cover up to protect who ever.
I still think some Arizona Forestry people are GOING to end up losing their jobs over all this… and they probably SHOULD.
It has been a botch job since day one… and the good taxpayers of Arizona deserve better.
WTKTT you make a compelling argument how ever the other side of the coin is as well quite interesting.
The big reason for not finding fault in the current investigations that were directed by the Fed’s. is because of what has happened to several lower Supervisors. Crew Bosses or Strike team leaders, Foreman or Superintendents, Division Supervisors have in fact been taken to court in liability suits for the decisions they made that caused injury or Fatalities. The over head have very seldom been held accountable for the Safety infractions committed by subordinates.
While I agree with you that the State was in charge and all were state employees. Marsh weather Division or crew leader made the on ground decisions unless some one else at the overhead level ordered him to do something the buck still stops there. In the past that is where the finding of fault has rested and why so many fire overhead have started carrying insurance and Lawyering up.
This is maybe one of the first where the State or a Federal fire organization was found responsible for the miss management by Overhead. That’s what they are fighting now. The finding of responsibility has always fallen on those on the ground closest to the decision making that become responsible for the accident.
So the jury decides the fate of who was guilty.
Reply to Bob Powers post
on October 13, 2014 at 7:34 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This is maybe one of the first where the
>> State or a Federal fire organization was
>> found responsible for the miss management
>> by Overhead. That’s what they are fighting now.
Copy that.
Speaking of ‘Federal’…
If there actually is more Helmet Cam footage that precedes the part that has been released… then ONE of the reasons the ‘cut’ comes where it does could have something to do with the FEDS.
If there are even just 90 or 120 seconds more video on the FRONT of what has been released… not only should we finally be able to hear the CALL SIGN of WHO Burfiend was really ‘reporting’ to at the start of that video… then we should ALSO actually SEE Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby and BR Captain Brown right there at that location in their UTV talking to either Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell… or any combination of those men.
The unredacted part of BR Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log confirms that as he and Frisby were leaving the Shrine Road Youth camp and evacuating. They stopped for TWO minutes right there in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot ( where Aaron Hulburd is standing when the Helmet-Cam begins ) and Captain Brown says…
“We talked with ( REDACTED ) and shared what intel we had.”
The Blue Ridge GPS tracking data backs this up exactly. The tracking data does STOP for 2 minutes right there in the Shrine of St. Joseph parking lot just 90 to 120 seconds before the ‘Helmet-Cam’ video begins.
Since the FEDS have been diligently blocking ALL access to ‘Blue Ridge’ and they wouldn’t give ADOSH permission to interview them at all… it could also very well be that the FEDS were insisting that no ‘recordings’ of the images of Brian Frisby or Captain Brown ever be released in any of the PUBLIC or FOIA material.
So whoever was ‘edting’ the original footage of this Helmet Cam video MAY have been under instructions to make sure the moments when Frisby and Brown were visible ( and we can possibly even hear this ‘intel’ report they gave ) were edited OUT of any release of any portion of that Helmet-Cam.
When the part of the Helmet-Cam that HAS been publicly released STARTS… we could probably literally see Brian Frisby and Captain Brown ‘driving away’ to the east on Shrine road in the UTV if Hulburd had been facing the other way when that video begins.
The timing really is THAT close.
Frisby and Brown were JUST THERE and giving that ‘intel’ report to Clawson / Hulburd / Yowell.
If more Helmet-Cam video DOES emerge… it wouldn’t surprise me in the least if even that portion where we should be able to both SEE and HEAR Frisby and Brown ends up ‘edited out’ of even that additional footage.
WTKTT
Although I am not a lawyer and could very well be wrong here goes…
My understanding of the freedom of information on video and audio tapes is they can be requested in full with out any removal of information if they were made during the incident by private parties or in what I have seen police mounted cameras. Those are subject to the freedom of information by News and other sources which can release them.
I do not believe the Federal Government can stop or remove any statements on the tapes of Federal Employees. The Video and Audio belongs to non Federal employees and ADOSH has a complete copy if requested it may have gone to court for clarification but I believe there is no legal cause to not release the entire Helmet Cam video. If it was requested under the freedom of information act by who ever then it will be released by the direction of the courts.
As a police officer I have seen dash cam video released to the media on a number of occasions both good and bad for the officers. But never refused by the police or courts.
Reply to Bob Powers post
on October 14, 2014 at 7:01 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> If it was requested under the freedom of
>> information act by who ever then it will be
>> released by the direction of the courts.
Sometimes NOT.
The keyword is ‘courts’.
Every FOIA / FOIL law and, indeed, even Arizona’s own ‘Access to Public Documents’ legislation has ‘exceptions’ that can be claimed by the holder of the information in their possession for NOT releasing it.
The most obvious ones are always related to ‘personal privacy’ such as never releasing someone’s banking information or even their NAMES if the holder of the information starts claiming that will violate their ‘privacy’.
Indeed… the FEDS have already done this with regards to the Yarnell information.
The FEDS released DVD copies of the Panebaker Aerial Study that had every single call-sign ‘redacted’ with TONES that someone manually inserted over the radio traffic.
The only things they missed were when Thomas French was using someone’s NAME like ‘Rusty’ or ‘Kevin’ or ‘Jack”.
‘Rusty’ was obviously ‘Rusty Warbis’ in ‘Bravo 3’ and even during ADOSH’s interview with Warbis and Lenmark… Rusty Warbis made a big stink about his NAME being left in those Air-To-Air channel recordings. I guess ( at the time ) he had no idea his ADOSH interview itself was also going to (eventually) ‘hit the streets’ because even all that is information held by a taxpayer funded agency.
The bottom line here is that both the FEDS and the STATE can withhold just about anything they want and then try and claim they are allowed to under the standard ‘exceptions’… even if that explanation amounts to just ‘mental gymnastics’.
It is then ( as you stated above ) up to a ‘judge’ to decide if they can continue withholding information.
Example: This has already happened with regards to Yarnell. The Arizona Republic ( and some other Garner Media outlets ) made the proper and formal ‘Arizona Open Records’ requests for both the Toxiciology and the Autopsy reports from the Yarnell incident.
A huge stink was raised with even the families chiming in with letters saying that only THEY should ever know what was in those reports.
Arizona Forestry got a judge to go on record saying he would BLOCK that request to the hilt if it was pursued… so ‘Garner Media’ officially withdrew the request(s).
At first they tried to change it to just wanting to see the ‘Toxicology’ reports just to make sure someone wasn’t DRUNK or “high as a kite” out there that day… but AZF made it clear they considered the Toxicology reports totally equal to the Autopsy reports and so Garner Media ended up dropping BOTH requests.
There has never been any explanation what ‘exceptions’ are being claimed by the FEDS for ALL of those ‘extended’ redactions in the Blue Ridge Unit logs.
I can still see them claiming the ‘prviacy’ exception with regards to NAMES and them trying to make it impossible to tell WHICH Unit Log belongs to WHICH BR person…
…but there has NEVER been any explanation for all the OTHER extensive redactions that seem to be purposely just blocking what radio traffic these men heard or what was said in conversations.
ADOSH was really pissed about that… and for all we know they have been pursuing this with the FEDS now that Arizona Forestry has given them every incentive in the world to do a SECOND investigation and still try to find out the TRUTH about what happened there that day.
Ditto for the lawyers for the plaintiffs in the lawsuits.
It is OBVIOUS there is some crucial information about what happened there that day sitting right there in the redacted portions of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs.
Actual INTERVIEWS with these men ( by someone other than Arizona Forestry ) would still be the better way to go… but just getting ‘original’ copies of their own ‘Unit Logs’ would provide a lot of critical information.
I am SURE that is going to happen, sooner or later.
As for material that is in the hands of a ‘private’ person who doesn’t really give a crap what Arizona Forestry or the US Forestry thinks… that’s both simpler and more complicated ( legally speaking ) at the same time.
Yes… anyone who has anything they want the world to see can just dump it in public at any time…
…but the State of Arizona and/or the FEDS DO still have ‘legal’ options of their own that could get all or part of that information ‘blocked’.
These days… by the time they do that… about a few thousand people will still already have made their own copies of the material and they will never put the ‘cat back in the bag’… but it doesn’t mean they won’t try.
Followup / Correction for the post above.
It was the ‘Arizona Republic’ ( AZREPUBLIC ) and ’12 News’ who made the original requests for the records under Arizona’s ‘Open Records’ laws.
Both are owned by the ‘Gannet’ Media Corporation and not ‘Garner’ as I accidentally typed in the post above.
Question- this new footage…is it raw footage to be released or more bullshit we have seen since day one CREATING the crap I have seen—
If they come out an say it is the full non-touched raw footage than I would listen to it…anything else is not worthy and again does a great disservice to all—
Joy—
My understanding it is the full 43 min. head cam recording no cut no touch up what was recorded at the time that was not released with the first portion.
I have heard this is the Raw footage. Until we can see and hear it none of us should put a final stamp of approval on it as factual evidence.
The real fact is that it dose exist.
Also all the redacted statements that we have not been privy too will sooner or later be part of the record if this ends up in court.
There is some serious stuff that we have not been allowed to see yet that may change the entire story.
Blue Ridge statements, radio traffic, head cam footage and the argument as well as some people who were never interviewed. We as onlookers have been left in the dark with a lot of unanswered questions. This also includes the families.
More photos surfaced…Kathy H-G of Yarnell lost her home near the Helm’s and this week I began to review her extensive fire photos (WAY TOO MANY) and she has a Blue Ridge in 1 photo and 2 smoke stacks in another. She is willing to help the investigative team so anyone interesting in seeing a few of her photos send Sonny an email at [email protected] and make your own assessments when we send you the photos-
We are doing the GMHS fence event and meeting with some investigative folks today so if delay depends when you email when we forward it to you—
Also very important we have been approached by someone who knew the men and thank us for being out there because it is important, our voice will not end even if people despise us or threaten legal words like injunction when there is no base to make such effort/threat when I was okay by no communication…we will all HEAL from this at different paces but NO WAY will I or should I have to let the men be or MOVE FORWARD…fact is I am moving forward…and in it…it’s NO GOOD to remember 6-28 thru 6-30-13. NOT GOOD! But I have to remember because people will forget what went on but I must remember this—VIVIDLY! or it will keep happening and they do need to change the way they fight wildfires. How many haters come forward this week thinking we need to respect their trauma and how about the people who are with trauma and seek the TRUTH—for the fallen, for all affected by the YHF I will not step down and I will keep exhausting every way and as one grieving person said to me…I am a small involvement in this…who cares…wonderful…the sair can accept their “cast this to the wind” approach but not me. I am going to keep gathering for you all to assess this-
You said, ” there was some weird images on the initial frames suggesting that it had been cut?”
If I Recall Correctly, I remember those “weird images” being on the video that AZCentral published. I remember that, but I’m not currently looking at it, or have the link for it. It definitely showed the video being “started” as if they were screen-recording it as they started it.
Which, in light of this conversation, begs the question, did AZCentral have the original “unedited” video?
I seriously can’t find that video now.
But I DEFINITELY remember it.
The copy of original ‘Helmet Cam’ footage that was released by the SAIT on December 13, 2013 that had those ‘weird images’ at the start of it was the copy that appeared on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today BLOG post the same day the original was released.
This is the one that actually shows some ‘video controls’ at the start and is obviously a video of someone starting a ‘screen capture’ of some piece of original footage playing in a video player.
That ‘screen capture’ is what ran with Gabbert’s article about the ‘Helmet Cam’ and was also subsequently uploaded to YouTube to the actual ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube channel/account.
That copy of just the FIRST part of the Helmet Cam video that accompanied the Wildfire Today BLOG post was never even the complete footage that was released on December 13, 2013.
‘Wildfire Today’ only chose to ‘screen capture’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds of the actual full 7 minutes and 49 seconds of the original Helmet-Cam video as released by the SAIT.
Wildfire Today YouTube Video TITLE…
Radio Transmissions from Granite Mountain Hotshots, Yarnell Hill Fire
.Wildfire Today YouTube Video Direct LINK…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbrlWTng2JU
This the one that clearly shows someone STARTING the video at a certain point with some kind of video player so this upload to Youtube appears to just be a ‘screen capture’.
.The ‘play’ bar that only appears for a few seconds at the start of the video has the standard ‘video offset’ and ‘video length’ counters on the left and right, respectively.
The ‘video offset’ counter on the left says: 00:02
The ‘video length’ indicator on the right says: 00:03:36
So it would appear that whatever piece of video was about to be ‘screen recorded’ was actually ‘paused’ at 2 seconds into the video before the ‘screen capture’ began and the total length of this ‘video clip’ that was about to be ‘screen captured’ was actually only 3 minutes and 36 seconds.
That means that someone had already ‘chopped’ the first 3 minutes and 36 seconds off the front of the 7 minute and 49 second ‘Helmet-Cam’ footage released that same day… and it was THIS ( shorter ) clip from that original footage that they were about to do this ‘screen capture’ on.
The actual length of the resulting ‘screen recording’ that was uploaded to the Wildfire Today YouTube account was 3 minutes and 39 seconds worth of video and it ends WHILE Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were evacuating and BEFORE they reached that second parking spot on Shrine Road.
This ‘screen recorded’ copy of the video actually ends as Hulburd is still traveling EAST on Shrine Road in his truck and right after the following captured radio conversation…
“Division Alpha… Bravo 33 on Air to Ground”.
It does not actually capture the REPEATED attempts by John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ to contact ‘Division Alpha’ once OPS1 Todd Abel basically had to tell him to get his head out of his ass and actually ORDERED him to respond to those men that were frantically calling him.
The extra 3 seconds ( the discrepancy between the 3:36 length shown in the video bar and the actual 3:39 Youtube video length ) is because the way this person ended the screen recording was to PAUSE the video and then turn off the screen capture. It took them 3 seconds after hitting PAUSE to actually stop the screen capture so the last 3 seconds is just a ‘freeze frame’ of one of the trees seen from Aaron Hulburd’s pickup.
It’s not really clear WHY someone at Wildfire Today felt the need to do a ‘screen recording’ of this short 3 minute and 36 video clip that they obviously already had loaded into some video playery. Maybe they were doing that ‘screen recording’ step just to get it uploaded to YouTube. Maybe that was the only way someone there could figure out how to pull off the YouTube upload, or something.
Here is a direct link to Bill Gabbert’s ‘Wildfire Today’ BLOG post that this featured this ‘weird’ copy of the original Helmet-Cam SAIT release.
It’s features the same video at the ‘Wildfire Today’ YouTube link above and is the one with the ‘weird images’ at the start showing us that this copy of the video was being created using a ‘screen recording’…
http://wildfiretoday.com/2013/12/13/video-captures-the-last-radio-transmissions-from-granite-mountain-hotshots/
Marti—–On Air tankers
You are right they are not owned by the agencies–Although MAFF’s Military Air Tankers are owned by the Government and used nation wide in extreme emergencies……
They are set up in IA zones
They are under contract to different agencies and also under interagency coop agreements.
The Contracts are with FS. BLM, and some State Agencies like in Calif.
They are a High Priority resource so getting them at times is difficult.
They also can be moved around quite a bit.
Thanks, Bob, you’re right. I’ve been so focused on the aircraft flying over Yarnell that I wasn’t thinking about the National Guard C-130s with MAFFs.
When that C-130/MAFF crashed in South Dakota in 2012, the crash was investigated by the US Air Force. There was some controversy among fire-fighters about that investigation. Bill Gabbert wrote, soon after about:
“Differences between military and Forest Service accident investigations:
http://wildfiretoday.com/2012/11/30/differences-between-military-and-forest-service-investigations/
Again, it’s that whole separation between “Lessons Learned” investigations and “Accountability” investigations.
Along these same lines, that S-2T air tanker that just crashed this afternoon at Yosemite was OWNED, along with 22 others of its kind, by CALFIRE, while also maintained and piloted by Dyncorp.
CALFIRE has a interesting PDF describing their aircraft, both owned by them and contracted by them.
“Firefighting Aircraft Recognition Guide”
http://calfire.ca.gov/communications/downloads/fact_sheets/Aviation_Firefighting_webbooklet.pdf
That will be a NTSB investigation first of all.
My dad, and thus me (who worked for him), was involved in the NTSB investigation of the infamous mid-air explosion of TWA Flight 800 over Moriches, New York in 1996.
So I’m reading, on my ipad via Twitter (so I can’t post the link), “FAA records show the plane is registered to the U.S. Forest Service, which originally provided the plane to Cal Fire…”
I still don’t really understand the relationship between the USFS and CALFIRE.
This article also says, “The missing pilot is an employee of
DynCorp, which provides the pilots for all Cal Fire fixed-wing aircraft and the maintenance for the department’s planes and helicopters…”
This article is called “Air Tanker crashes inYosemite while fighting Dog Rock Fire” via KCRA.com
A lot more interesting Co-op between agencies than when I worked.
The FS and BLM owned some Jumper planes way back did not know they had air tankers registered to them. Cal Fire is a whole nother ball game.
Nice research again your are keeping me up to date now.
I believe there was a large turn over of Federally owned air craft to the FS which in turn were turned over to contractors to be refitted and used as Air Tankers not sure how that all evolved I did not keep any track of it back when. So the FS may have kept the registration for legal purposes as the Government agency.
CAL FIRE
They are the State forestry which split the Fire portion out into a new name several years ago.
They are the State of California Fire department.
In my day they were the California division of Forestry. They have a lot of fire resources for wildland Fire Engines, Inmate crews helicopters and Air tanker contracts. I actually worked for them in 1961 at 17 they hired fire fighters for summer crews.
My Step Brother worked for them out of Visalia Calif. for a Carrier as a Fire employee. They are a very well qualified fire organization
and go way back in California history. Worked with them a lot during my carrier in California back then they also had fire camp facilities as well as cooks some of the best food ever in there fire camps. That was before caterers took over food service in California.
So simply the FS and Cal Fire have co-op agreements with each other in California just like other states have local state agreements.
Just a big wild land fire community a lot of different agencies with the same training requirements which created Incident Command Systems and the change in nomenclature from Fire Boss to Incident commander which covers fire and non fire emergences.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on September 21, 2014 at 11:22 pm
NOTE: This recent reply from Joy Collura on the thread that was discussing whether there were MULTIPLE security camera at the Helms Ranch ( and not just the one on the main gate ) is being brought up here to the top for ‘replies’ since that thread is out of room… and I also didn’t want this to get ‘lost in the weeds’.
Joy Collura wrote…
—————————————————————
On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:03 AM I emailed the Helm’s Ranch Residence-
inquiring and squashing rumors flying in regards to them about us. On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 8:17 PM I received a reply—I will not copy/paste it all but the part that answered my ?—
“I don’t know where these rumors came from, but they are not true. We have never said we were going to sue anyone, or have anyone arrested. Craig Knapp is handling our issues and that is where it stops.”
I hiked that terrain for almost ten years and their property was surrounded by a unique density of plants/flora/boulders…there is alot I have not spoke publicly out of respect that I know THE TOWN reads this site and we seem to be target for silly rumors and rubbish in regards to our hiking folks on the mountain tops—yet there is details to that area that to this day bewilders me that even talking to few I thought could shed an answer—they too are bewildered. How I came up with MORE THAN one camera is this…early on I saw footage somewhere online that said Boulders Ranch footage that did not match entrance so assume there has to be more than one PLUS as the desert walker pioneering Arizona in the modern world I have more than 1 camera glued to my surroundings to get familiar to what wildlife roams as well as what people roam or “thief”…so if common folk me has more than one camera for my adventures…I am sure an established ranch has more than one—I would imagine if it was my home base I would have another camera tucked shooting out towards the hill near their home because there is a trail that is on their unfenced property that leads to the fenced property—Helms own a very wide chunk out there…than its surrounded by State Land and some private properties—
Since I have been told by locals the Helms have not much to say…I thought for a long time how come not our details we shared to SAIR did not make the SAIR so maybe the same happened to the Helm’s too— who knows— If the Helm’s wrote a detailed book on the fire—I would buy it— as well if Bruce, Laura C., Pat and a few others—if they shared their details—I would buy it. I find certain people are extremely important for clarity—also I strongly feel what the lady in the evacuation spoke IS very important and I wish Barb B.- the doctor- could share more but their is confidentiality laws—I am having a man from Milan, Italy sketching out my story and we are going to create a history mural and that will be our memorial marker for that moment—that will be my healing…because it sickens us to hike pass the current memorial for the men in Yarnell as weeds are just ridiculous—they want to have this neat memorial but how many times has Buford or us pulled the weeds there—just seems sad…
—————————————————————
Once again… Thank you, Joy.
We both seem to have witnessed the same thing with regards to assuming there WAS a security camera on the WEST side of the Boulder Springs Ranch in addition to the one covering the main gate.
I, too, am sure I saw some footage appearing on Television that said it was from a security camera at the Boulder Springs Ranch… but it was obviously showing a view to the WEST and not the main gate of the compound.
I have searched everywhere online for this original Media segment that I am sure had a subtitle of “Boulder Springs Ranch Security Footage” showing at the bottom of the screen while the video as playing… but I am unable to find it.
We are also in agreement that it would be very strange if a compound like that really did only have ONE Security Camera that was ONLY covering the electronic gate.
There are also those strange ‘black boxes’ mounted on the corner of the residence itself that are, in fact, pointing to the WEST and ( if they are cameras ) seem to be covering that WEST side of the compound and that other service road entrance.
Those ‘black boxes’ seen in ADOSH photos are NOT lighting fixtures.
I also hope that Lee and DJ Helm someday write a book about their experiences.
It is not everyday you survive a fire the way they did.
I would definitely like to ‘read their story’ someday.
One quick question for you…
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
reply: I tried answering this a few times even earlier today so I am unsure why this is not posting-
I will not ask any questions to the Helms in regards to the fire but I will ask direct ones in regards to rumors on us in regards to them and I did. It was brought to my attention that a rumor about the hikers surfaced last Fall near the time Morgan Loew did his report on us and the sair report came out in regards to a crazy theory that was created and told by the Prescott fire community that Sonny and Joy were contacting/harrassing the GMHS loved ones last Fall saying the men were not actually dead and the findings were drug cartel..
I reckon the concern here was who there felt such depth to create that and why not come to us the source vs making that statement go viral. Anyone I asked today never heard it so nice to see you chum chums out there can say that…there was a few words that came to my attention and those words were ONLY said behind close doors between Sonny and myself so those few words told to us in regards to another topic—NICE! Bug our private camp spots to gain who we are…the information you gain means zip we have been upfront that we are the old married couple (he’s old) (I am married) and we also are like two kids on the trails…we live life unlike others…my husband drops me off on his way to work and picks me up on the way home. I sleep over on times we have early morning stuff. We hike and we go to the library yet our thing is to pioneer and explore…so waste your time and energy trying to dig deeper and you will see no cobwebs or skeletons in our neck of the woods. Sad how people make us out to be but in the end all we can do is take it with a grain of salt. I am sorry you did not want us to share our accounts/photos/videos. I am sorry we hike anyone including the experts up there and encourage people to get their state land pass and hike the legal areas up there. I am sorry so many locally have died locally of lung concerns/copd/cancer since the YHF including the state board respiratory specialist 30 y.o. Zack Ashoor that Sonny hiked up there to see his GMHS friends. I am sorry I keep trying to get every and any vehicle to get clarity on the YHF including encouraging homeowners who had a loss of loved one and home and etc to please SHARE your accounts and photos/videos. But I am not sorry for the unique way I live my life. It keeps me alive. I want to be here a very long time. God-willing I will…and I will keep hiking and sharing until I see all areas exhausted—
My thing I would love to learn in regards to the Helms since God guided us to Utah and we met fire warden J. Eckert and one of his retired firefighter locals we met told us he helped build the Helms compound and he had some rather intriguing descriptions to that area so if I was the lawyers or investigators who gave a shit…and I mean this…for all affected by the YHF…they would test the soil to that area after what I heard what I did—I for sure think that area should be tested. We know the air quality was tested and high in N02 and other stuff and I also would metal detect the shit out of that area. As for the Helm’s place…like I said I have perimeter cameras everywhere I am from vehicle to camp to home and you bet I am going to have cameras in places people would never figure out and believe you me I had a tween or 2 try…so I KNOW I saw footage that was not the gate of the Helms somewhere online or on video soon after we returned. I do think they have more than one camera. Oh and if you all here want to see the GMHS fence that was in the media in July 2013 there is a private invite only by Sonny and me to show you it Oct. 16th 10am so if interested in being there- email [email protected]. MUST have your RSVP and how many by THIS Thursday the 9th and the fence is located in Prescott. Thank you. I don’t want people saying who is going…no name dropping so you can decide if you want to go based on who is there but there is some officials that will be there and hopefully the Milan Italy artist who is doing our own personal memorial mural. We just have to come up with the material and he will do his magic. Anyone interesting in helping on the material …craigslist has always been good to Sonny and he has stuff under Prescott Wanted area—you can see his list there.
TRY AGAIN
Joy A. Collura says
OCTOBER 7, 2014 AT 2:08 AM
Your comment is awaiting moderation.
When you emailed them… did you ASK them if they did, in fact, have more than just ONE Security Camera running on June 30, 2013?
reply: I tried answering this a few times even earlier today so I am unsure why this is not posting-
I will not ask any questions to the Helms in regards to the fire but I will ask direct ones in regards to rumors on us in regards to them and I did. It was brought to my attention that a rumor about the hikers surfaced last Fall near the time Morgan Loew did his report on us and the sair report came out in regards to a crazy theory that was created and told by the Prescott fire community that Sonny and Joy were contacting/harrassing the GMHS loved ones last Fall saying the men were not actually dead and the findings were drug cartel..
I reckon the concern here was who there felt such depth to create that and why not come to us the source vs making that statement go viral. Anyone I asked today never heard it so nice to see you chum chums out there can say that…there was a few words that came to my attention and those words were ONLY said behind close doors between Sonny and myself so those few words told to us in regards to another topic—NICE! Bug our private camp spots to gain who we are…the information you gain means zip we have been upfront that we are the old married couple (he’s old) (I am married) and we also are like two kids on the trails…we live life unlike others…my husband drops me off on his way to work and picks me up on the way home. I sleep over on times we have early morning stuff. We hike and we go to the library yet our thing is to pioneer and explore…so waste your time and energy trying to dig deeper and you will see no cobwebs or skeletons in our neck of the woods. Sad how people make us out to be but in the end all we can do is take it with a grain of salt. I am sorry you did not want us to share our accounts/photos/videos. I am sorry we hike anyone including the experts up there and encourage people to get their state land pass and hike the legal areas up there. I am sorry so many locally have died locally of lung concerns/copd/cancer since the YHF including the state board respiratory specialist 30 y.o. Zack Ashoor that Sonny hiked up there to see his GMHS friends. I am sorry I keep trying to get every and any vehicle to get clarity on the YHF including encouraging homeowners who had a loss of loved one and home and etc to please SHARE your accounts and photos/videos. But I am not sorry for the unique way I live my life. It keeps me alive. I want to be here a very long time. God-willing I will…and I will keep hiking and sharing until I see all areas exhausted—
My thing I would love to learn in regards to the Helms since God guided us to Utah and we met fire warden J. Eckert and one of his retired firefighter locals we met told us he helped build the Helms compound and he had some rather intriguing descriptions to that area so if I was the lawyers or investigators who gave a shit…and I mean this…for all affected by the YHF…they would test the soil to that area after what I heard what I did—I for sure think that area should be tested. We know the air quality was tested and high in N02 and other stuff and I also would metal detect the shit out of that area. As for the Helm’s place…like I said I have perimeter cameras everywhere I am from vehicle to camp to home and you bet I am going to have cameras in places people would never figure out and believe you me I had a tween or 2 try…so I KNOW I saw footage that was not the gate of the Helms somewhere online or on video soon after we returned. I do think they have more than one camera. Oh and if you all here want to see the GMHS fence that was in the media in July 2013 there is a private invite only by Sonny and me to show you it Oct. 16th 10am so if interested in being there- email [email protected]. MUST have your RSVP and how many by THIS Thursday the 9th and the fence is located in Prescott. Thank you. I don’t want people saying who is going…no name dropping so you can decide if you want to go based on who is there but there is some officials that will be there and hopefully the Milan Italy artist who is doing our own personal memorial mural. We just have to come up with the material and he will do his magic. Anyone interesting in helping on the material …craigslist has always been good to Sonny and he has stuff under Prescott Wanted area—you can see his list there.
Reply
**
** MYSTERY SOLVED
**
** THE 4490red VLAT DROP VIDEO STARTED AT 1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
Ever since YouTube User 4490red posted that PUBLIC video of his showing a VLAT drop just north of the U-Store-It facility off Highway 89 it has been a bit of mystery exactly WHICH VLAT drop that was and WHEN it really happened.
Actually… it has always been obvious that that video was shot either DURING or shortly AFTER the appearance of the MAYDAY traffic on the radio at 1639… but I don’t think the ‘mystery’ of EXACTLY when that video was taken was every fully resolved.
The ANSWER to this ‘mystery’ starts with the background radio traffic that was recorded while this VLAT drop was being filmed.
At the very moment the video starts… we hear someone on the radio relaying GPS coordinates to someone else. That first radio capture is exactly this…
+0:00
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): Three four, one six point one nine by one one two, four four point one four.
The GPS coordinates being supplied at the start of this video are…
Latitude: 34′ 16.19″
Longitude: 112′ 44.14″
Decimal equivalent(s)…
34.2698333, -112.7356667
At first it was thought that this was, perhaps, a radio capture of that known moment during the ground rescue mission when the GPS coordinates for those ‘bladder bags’ was being relayed to the ground rescue team that was now out at the anchor point looking for GM.
SIDENOTE: That ground rescue team was Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby, BR Captain Trueheart Brown and the 3 Bea Day Team off-the-radar-hires Jayson Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell. Off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd is the one who shot the ‘Helmet-Cam’.
As it turns out… those GPS coordinates are NOT the ‘bladder bags’ at all.
Those GPS coordinates are actually the spot that was decided upon for the ‘staging’ of the LifeFlight MEDEVAC helicopters that were all headed to Yarnell following the deployment.
The GPS coordinates from the 4490red video are a spot in that open field just SOUTH of where the Panebaker cameras were set up on Hays Ranch Road near the Helibase up in Peeples Valley.
Actual distance(s) from Panebaker camera setup…
1,493 feet due west on Hays Ranch Road from Panebaker location… then 785 feet due south of Hays Ranch Road OR 1,593 feet due southwest of the Panebaker video camera setup.
These coordinates are an exact match for what was also being broadcast at that time via the ADC ‘Air Dispatch’ and is reflected in those ‘Dispatch Logs’.
The Latitude and Longitude that were established for the LifeFlight choppers in the ‘Dispatch Logs’ are the same as heard in the 4490red video.
From the public document entitled “I-Dispatch Records” – PDF page 53 of 97
————————————————————————————
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:12.09 ( 5:12.09 PM )
From: BRAVO 33
To: CH
Message: Switched out with Bravo 3 and going to head to Prescott
for fuel // Copy. Give a call landline when you can.
* Next entry in log comes 4 seconds later…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:12:13 ( 5:12.13 PM )
From: JENNIFER
To: PMB
Message: PRESCOTT ALARM, MAY HAVE 20+ UNKNOWN AT THIS TIME.
DPS PUT ON STANDBY IN FLAG. MEDEVAC REQUESTED TO MOVE UP IN
CASE NEEDED. SHE WILL PUT OUT NOTIFICATION.
* Next entry in log comes 3 minutes and 14 seconds later…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 17:15:27 ( 5:15.27 PM )
From: BRAVO 3
To: ALLI
Message: AIR SUPERVISION IS THERE MEDICAL RESPONSE
REPORTING TO THIS FIRE? // YES IF WE CAN GET A FIFTEEN MINUTE
WHEN THEY CAN GET IN THERE AND A GOOD CONTACT // YES //
ALSO CAN WE GET AN UPDATED LAT/LON TO GIVE TO LIFE FLIGHT //
POSSIBLE LIFE FLIGHT HAVE THEM REPORT TO FIRE NOW PLEASE
AND HAVE THEM COME UP ON TO GROUND SMOKE IS CLEARING //
NEED A LAT/LON? // REPORT TO HAVE LIFE FLIGHT LIFT NOW AND
WE WILL HAVE THE LAT AND LONG WHEN THEY LAUNCH // WE ARE
CURRENTLY GETTING THEM LAUNCHED DO YOU HAVE A NUMBER
OF PERSONELL INVOLVED? // HELO IS TO REPORT 34 16.19 X 112 44.146
AND COME UP ON FREQS 134.175 AND HAVE THEM HAVE AIR TO
GROUND // 25 PERSONELL ARE INVOLVED.
———————————————————————–
So there is the exact match for the same GPS coordinates being ‘broadcast’ over the A2G channel at the start of the 4490red VLAT DROP video.
That means this 4490red video could NOT have been taken BEFORE the LifeFlight helicopters were ordered and those GPS coordinates decided on for their ‘staging area’ up north near the Helibase.
That also means the 4490red video was NOT taken DURING the MAYDAY radio traffic itself. It was taken some time ( but not TOO long ) AFTER that.
That definitely puts the time for this 4490red video close to that entry in Eric Panebaker’s own Unit Log where he records a VLAT 910 drop at 1706 ( 5:06 PM ).
The FINAL proof that this 1706 VLAT drop is actually the one shown in the 4490red video comes from the other Panebaker Air-To-Air channel radio captures for the time period 1645 through 1716.
By 1700 ( 5:00 PM ), Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’ had already told VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ that they had been (quote) “briefed about as well as we can be” regarding the deployment incident that was still unfolding beneath them… and Thomas French decides to just go ‘back to work’ with Kevin in the VLAT and drop some retardant to protect more structures in Yarnell.
We actually HEAR Thomas French and VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ discussing and executing this very next 1706 VLAT drop captured by the 4490red video and recorded in Panebaker’s Unit Log.
Here is the part of that Panebaker Air-To-Air channel recording that covers the actual 1706 ( 5:06 PM ) VLAT drop in the 4490red video…
—————————————————————————
The matching DROP sequence from the Panebaker
20130630_1716_EP Air-To-Air channel capture video.
—————————————————————————
This excerpt from that video starts just before the VLAT 910 drop
and then goes through Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’ taking over
Air Attack duties and French and Burfiend ( Bravo 33 ) leave Yarnell
and head to Prescott.
—————————————————————————
NOTE: At +18:41 the static clears and we now clearly hear French say that everything is ‘starting to clear up’ ( with regards to smoke ), and he guides pilot ‘Kevin’ in the DC10 VLAT 910 in for a drop.
+18:41 ( 1704.00 / 5:04.00 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… everything is startin’ to clear up. I’m gonna start my descent. I’m out of six thousand.
+18:46 ( 1704.05 / 5:04.05 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Perfect. Yea… we’re in the… uh… clear, too.
+18:59 ( 1704.18 / 5:04.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… we’re gonna have a… kind of a… little bit of a turn on short final. Just go ahead and follow me. Smoke’s kinda layin’ over. I think what we need to do is kinda put it in at the far south end. Just go ahead and follow me.
+19:10 ( 1704.29 / 5:04.29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): (Copy that.) We’ll do it.
+19:22 ( 1704.41 / 5:04.41 PM )
(B33 – French): ( He is talking again at this point but static has increased ) ( He appears to be giving some heading information. The words ‘Zero Five Five’ seem to be heard in this transmission ).
+19:30 ( 1704.49 / 5:04.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Got it.
+19:35 ( 1704.54 / 5:04.54 PM )
(B33 – French): Top heading will be about… uh… Zero One Zero.
+19:39 ( 1704.58 / 5:04.58 PM )
(B33 – French): Still got me in sight?
+19:40 ( 1704.59 / 5:04.59 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): You bet.
+19:42 ( 1705.01 / 5:05.01 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’m on line.
+19:44 ( 1705.03 / 5:05.03 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I’m gonna have to follow ??
+19:47 ( 1705.06 / 5:05.06 PM )
(B33 – French): You got it. We’re gonna have to go over a road right about… here. See where the (??) flames… get it good as you can. I’m at forty-eight hundred.
+19:55 ( 1705.14 / 5:05.14 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay.
+19:57 ( 1705.16 / 5:05.16 PM )
(B33 – French): I’m hard right. You’re gentle right.
+19:59 ( 1705.18 / 5:05.18 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Got it.
** 26 SECOND PAUSE. NO AIR-TO-AIR CHANNEL TRAFFIC
** THE DC10 VLAT 910 DROP TAKES PLACE DURINING
** THIS 26 SECOND PAUSE IN THE A2A CHANNEL TRAFFIC.
+20:25 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): TONE. Drop complete.
+20:28 ( 1705.47 / 5:05.47 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea. I think I stepped on ya. How’d that work?
+20:30 ( 1705.49 / 5:05.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Ah… that worked fine. Uh… Drop complete. We’re gonna go north just a bit.
+20:34 ( 1705.53 / 5:05.53 PM )
(B33 – French): You bet. Take as much room as ya need. You got all the room out there. That’s gonna be a load and return Phoenix… and that looked like it went in there really good. Uh… nicely done. I appreciate all your help on that one.
+20:43 ( 1706.02 / 5:06.02 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yep. Ah… no problem. Ah… load and return. See ya in a bit.
+20:56 ( 1706.15 / 5:06.15 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Bravo Three, Bravo Three Thr… Uh… Bravo Three Three, Bravo Three.
+20:59 ( 1706.18 / 5:06.18 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead, Rusty.
+21:00 ( 1706.19 / 5:06.19 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Ya want me to just look at extendin’ that?
+21:05 ( 1706.24 / 5:06.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey Rusty… you (faded) out. Say again?
+21:07 ( 1706.26 / 5:06.26 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Are you lookin’ at just extendin’ that line.
+21:10 ( 1706.29 / 5:06.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Well… ( he laughs)… that’s… that’s not even the line I wanted. I wanted to be further to the south… Break. Seven Four Nine… Bravo Three Three… you’re clear to the dip.
+21:19 ( 1706.38 / 5:06.38 PM )
(Helicopter 749): Four Nine’s at the dip.
+21:22 ( 1706.41 / 5:06.41 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Yea… good luck on that, though. Can you get underneath it that far?
+21:25 ( 1706.44 / 5:06.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Nah. I couldn’t. I could a few minutes ago… we got so busy kinda lookin’ for the… uh… deployment… but… yea… if I were you I would just kind of extend that as best you can… and then… if you can get in there, then just back up further north.
+21:38 ( 1706.57 / 5:06.57 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Got it.
+21:39 ( 1706.58 / 5:06.58 PM )
(B33 – French): You have Helitanker Seven Four Nine. You’re controlling them. And… uh… Kilo Alpha. They’re Wickenburg… uh… load and return. We ordered everything we could outta Prescott. I think we got two more Helitankers.
+21:50 ( 1707.09 / 5:07.09 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Sweet. Yea. We did that earlier, too. It’s kinda anything available… take it.
+21:55 ( 1707.14 / 5:07.14 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea… and I got about a minute left on scene… uh… and we gotcha in sight… and you’re still at seven, right?
+22:01 ( 1707.20 / 5:07.20 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Well… I drifted down to six-five.
+22:03 ( 1707.22 / 5:07.22 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay. Copy that. Uh… break. Standby.
+22:08 ( 1707.27 / 5:07.27 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Let me pop back up. I gotcha.
+22:10 ( 1707.29 / 5:07.29 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea. I gotcha. So… I guess John was talking to… uh… Paul. I actually missed that.
+22:15 ( 1707.34 / 5:07.34 PM )
(Unknown. Paul Lenmark in Bravo 3?): I think we’re probly good… if (??) short.
( Overlapping transmission here ).
+22:19 ( 1707.38 / 5:07.38 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): (??) …we’ll, uh, thrash it out.
+22:21 ( 1707.40 / 5:07.40 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay. Copy that… yea… we gotta bug out. And… uh… we’re gonna head into Prescott.
+22:26 ( 1707.45 / 5:07.45 PM )
(Helicopter 749): Four Nine outta the dip.
+22:27 ( 1707.46 / 5:07.46 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): Okay. Copy that. Prescott. Ya comin’ back?
+22:30 ( 1707.49 / 5:07.49 PM )
(B33 French): I don’t think so… and I think we may have to head into Albuquerque either tonight or early tomorrow. AC is out and we’re burnin.
+22:37 ( 1707.56 / 5:07.56 PM )
(Bravo 3 – Rusty Warbis): I’ll bet.
+22:40 ( 1707.59 / 5:07.59 PM )
(Helicopter 749): And Lead, Four Nine, do you want us back on the south side?
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: That’s it for ‘Bravo 33’ in Yarnell that day. Rusty Warbis in ‘Bravo 3’
is now responding this ‘Lead Plane’ call from Helicopter 749
and have now taken over ‘Air Attack’ from the departing
‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend )
——————————————————————————–
So now we have an actual TIMESTAMP to use to determine the START of the 4490red video itself.
VLAT 910 pilot Kevin called out ‘Drop complete’ at this exact moment in the Air-To-Air channel capture…
+20:25 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): TONE. Drop complete.
In the 4490red video… we see the retardant ‘shut off’ at exactly +50 seconds into the video.
So just subtracting 50 seconds from 1705.44 gives a START time for the 4490red video of…
1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
Mystery solved.
Last but not least… here is the new full transcript of the 4490red VLAT DROP VIDEO which now includes the actual TIMESTAMPS for the START and END of this video…
—————————————————————-
4490red VIDEO starts at 1704.54 ( 5:04.54 PM )
—————————————————————-
+0:00 ( 1704.54 / 5:04.54 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): Three four, one six point one nine by
one one two, four four point one four.
NOTE: Someone was supplying the GPS coordinates for the staging
area to be used by the LifeFlight MEDEVAC helicopters headed for Yarnell…
Latitude: 34′ 16.19″
Longitude: 112′ 44.14″
+0:11 ( 1705.05 / 5:05.05 PM )
(Unknown 2 – on A2G channel?): Two. Copy that.
+0:13 ( 1705.07 / 5:05.07 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): No worries, man.
NOTE: No other radio traffic for 25 seconds while the VLAT lines up flying a
SOUTH to NORTH drop line. The drop begins at +0:34 and continues
for 16 seconds until the retardant outflow shuts off at +0:50.
+0:34 ( 1705.28 / 5:05.28 PM )
DROP START – RETARDANT OUTFLOW FROM THE VLAT TURNS ON.
+0:38 ( 1705.32 / 5:05.32 PM )
(Unknown 1 – on A2G channel?): They’re on the… uh… they were on the heel.
It’s Ranger Five Eight and… uh… you can probly reach ’em on this frequency but…
uh… you need to go back.
+0:50 ( 1705.44 / 5:05.44 PM )
DROP COMPLETE – RETARDANT OUTFLOW FROM THE VLAT TURNS OFF.
————————————————-
Here are Eric Panebaker’s entries from his own ‘Unit Log’ that confirms this
is the ‘1706’ drop being filmed by 4490red from the U-Store-It Mini-mart.
————————————————-
1633 T413 drop.
1640 Possible deployment in division A, hold T910 drop.
1647 Still can’t find people or get ahold of Div. A or Granite Mountain.
1658 T910, CL4 full load.
1706 T910 drop
1708 T06 on scene.
1723 I stop filming/taking pictures and start helping the Medical response task force.
————————————————-
+0:51 ( 1705.45 / 5:05.45 PM )
(Unknown 2 – on A2G channel?): Ranger Five Eight.
+0:52 ( 1705.46 / 5:05.46 PM )
(Unknown 3 – on A2G channel?): ( Modulation is heard like someone pressing their
microphone and trying to transmit… but the video ends before any words can
be made out. This could have been the start of Ranger Five Eight answering
the callout to them just 2 seconds ago at +0:50 ).
+0:53: ( 1705.47 / 5:05.47 PM ) – VIDEO ENDS
—————————————————–
Followup…
In the Panebaker 20130630_1716_EP Air-To-Air channel capture video, which covers the time from 1645 ( 4:45 PM ) to 1716 ( 5:16 PM ) and ends with DPS Chopper Ranger 58 requesting clearance from Rusty Warbis ( Bravo 3 ) to lift and begin their search for Granite Mountain…. you can actually SEE the 1706 ( 5:06 PM ) VLAT 910 drop taking place there in the distance as filmed by 4490red in hist video at the U-Store-It facility.
It’s very hard to see…. but even without video enhancement capability you can see the LIGHTS of both ‘Bravo 3′ acting as Lead Plane and VLAT 910 as they perform this 1706 drop there some distance south of the Panebaker video camera.
By the time we reach the following Air-To-Air traffic exchange captured by Panebaker… VLAT 910 is now seen ’emerging’ from the drop and headed straight along that same south-to-north drop line and right at Panebaker’s camera.
VLAT 910 does, in fact, do exactly what he says here.
He comes out of that drop, banks slightly, and is seen clearly in the Panebaker video heading ‘to the north’ as he prepares to leave Yarnell on a ‘load and return’.
+20:30 ( 1705.49 / 5:05.49 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Ah… that worked fine. Uh… Drop complete. We’re gonna go north just a bit.
+20:34 ( 1705.53 / 5:05.53 PM )
(B33 – French): You bet. Take as much room as ya need. You got all the room out there. That’s gonna be a load and return Phoenix… and that looked like it went in there really good. Uh… nicely done. I appreciate all your help on that one.
+20:43 ( 1706.02 / 5:06.02 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yep. Ah… no problem. Ah… load and return. See ya in a bit.
Correction for the ‘Followup’ post just above.
It was ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ) who were still performing ‘Lead Plane’ duties for this 1706 VLAT 910 drop, and not ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ).
‘Bravo 3’ was already in the area and ‘hanging out’ over the fire waiting to relieve ‘Bravo 33’ as ‘Air Attack’… but this final VLAT 910 drop at 1706 there just north of the U-Store-It facility on Highway 89 was the LAST thing that ‘Bravo 33’ did before then handing off AA duties to ‘Bravo 3’ and leaving for Prescott.
Since they scrubbed their video from YouTube, do YOU have a copy of it?
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2014 at 8:15 am
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I do not understand the lack of communications
>> between Air Attack and the IC.
We still don’t have the full story on that, since ( among other reasons ) the elusive Mr. Rory Collins was never fully and properly interviewed by ADOSH… but there IS some amount of evidence to indicate that some very important information WAS being relayed from Air Support to Ground Support that day… it just didn’t ‘register’ with them or no one felt it was THEIR responsibility to DO anything with that information they were receiving.
Example: Division Z Rance Marquez being one of the recipients of ‘Bravo 3’s initial evaluation of “current and expected fire behavior” even as early as 12:30 PM that day. We know he didn’t even bother to hang around and actually MANAGE the Division he was assigned and that he just left the Sesame area, scouted around some more, then returned up north to the ICP… but even when he returned to the ICP where IC Roy Hall really was just hanging out in that ‘principal’s office’ up there… did he bother to relay what he had been told to Hall? Apparently not.
Just more evidence that you can pass out all the radios you want and people can be actually talking on them… it doesn’t mean they are ever actually COMMUNICATING.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Unless it was just a lack of respect by one or the other
I’m not sure I’d call it a ‘lack of respect’… but after listening to hours of Air-To-Air channel conversations between the ‘Air Support’ people themselves ( for the Yarnell incident, anyway ) it is amazing how ‘unconcerned’ they seem to be ( at all times ) about ANYTHING the ground people are actually doing.
Yes… they will respond to REQUESTS ( like ‘Bravo 3’ did from Darrell Willis when they first arrived on the fire )… but as far as what the overall PLAN is ‘on the ground’…. it seems they really couldn’t care less. They arrive over a fire… they size things up on their own… and then they seem to proceed to do whatever the heck THEY want to do or feel NEEDS to be done.
Another example: Air Attack Rory Collins decides to just dump retardant all over DIVSA’s indirect burnouts near the anchor point without even bothering to check with him first. He just saw something HE didn’t understand or didn’t like from the Air and then did what HE wanted.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> The IC is supposed to be in control of the fire and making the decisions.
>> Air Attack should be in contact with the IC at all times.
Glad to hear you say that.
Based on just the way ‘Air Support’ was operating in Yarnell on June 30, 2013… I was under the impression that that was simply NEVER the case.
It’s actually pretty astounding how much of a ‘free pass’ IC Roy Hall seems to be getting as far as any responsibility for what ultimately happened in Yarnell goes.
Even in his own SAIT interview… Roy Hall said that his FIRST priority at even the initial 7:00 AM briefing at the Yarnell HIll Fire Station was to (quote) “Get aircraft over the fire”.
Then, after the 9:00 AM briefing at the Model Creek School ICP up in Peeples Valley…. Roy Hall then basically set himself up in the school principal’s office and was then just on the phone with people trying to UPGRADE the Incident to ‘other levels’ the rest of the day.
He didn’t even have a radio with him and wasn’t even listening to the communications on the fire he was supposed to be the IC of that day.
He actually told the SAIT investigators…
“As IC; I empower my people and don’t listen to the radio. I wasn’t listening to the radio.”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> If they (Air Support) note a serious change in the fire activity then they
>> need to be keeping the IC up to date on their analyses of what is
>> going to happen. That is the way it usually works.
See above. They couldn’t have called IC Roy Hall on the radio that day even if they had tried.
He didn’t even HAVE a radio that day.
But Roy Hall said that is ‘normal for him’.
He told the SAIT investigators that’s how HE operates.
He ’empowers’ people and then doesn’t even feel the need to have a radio.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Again the lack of leadership by the IC keeps jumping out at me on this Fire.
>> The OPS seemed to fall into the same trap.
>> Were they really that highly qualified?
If there was ever a day when the IC of a fire should have been directly involved and making SURE all the designated OPS and Division people were ‘communicating well’… it was THAT day.
But Roy Hall was simply sitting in the principal’s office and not even listening to the radio.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> GM and many others made there own decisions because no one else
>> was truly making any direct supervisory decisions for them.
And that could very well be what Eric Marsh meant when he told Jesse Steed at 3:55 PM…
“I knew this was coming. I could just feel it, ya know?”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> This in turn caused the steam rolling effect of many people having
>> near misses in burn overs that ended with 19 dead fire fighters.
Apparently… Air Support was dropping retardant right there near the end of Harper Canyon but were still unaware that there were actually CREWS out at the end of that canyon who would then almost die themselves because no one was warning them where the fire really was.
There was no ‘safe black’ in Harper Canyon.
Of any crews on the fire… they were the ones that were the most ‘blind’ to where the fire really was and what it was really doing and they needed PLENTY of notification ( from someone ) as to when they should ‘get the hell out of there’.
That notification was very, very nearly TOO LATE that day.
Even without Air Support having any idea they were there so THEY” could ‘warn’ them… they had (supposedly) THREE different lookouts yet they STILL had to ‘self-evacuate’ when the fire came roaring over the ridgeline just above their heads.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Strong people need to lead a Fire Team.
>> and we are back to the military thing again
>> Chain of command and the ability to lead direct and
>> make decisions on the run. The buck stops here.
After he held his little ‘meetings’ that morning… IC Roy Hall apparently felt that it was OK for him to just sit in an office with no radio and talk on the phone to people who weren’t even in Yarnell about what ‘tomorrow’ should look like and what ‘orders for tomorrow’ were being placed.
Roy Hall seems to be a ‘capable leader’…. but he forgot to actually fight the fire he was hired to fight THAT DAY and seemed just totally preoccupied THAT day about what TOMORROW was going to look like ( structure-wise ).
I believe that contributed to a lot of the ‘accidents’ that almost-did ( and DID ) happen on ‘his watch’. His lack of direct supervision of the OPS and DIVS command, communication and control that day ( as well as coordination with Air Support ) contributed more than just a few ‘holes in the swiss cheese’ that were tragically going to ‘align’ that day.
A couple of points————–
A type 2 fire with a type 2 overhead should be and normally is a hands on operation
We are not talking about 1000 plus man power fire.
Also again we have the fact that there was no Plans section ordered so the IC was doing that rather than delegating some one to start the planning for next shift. Like the extra OPS.
This was a glaring failure in leadership and the investigation should have noted it as well.
So the State was responsible for what happened and deserved the fines levied and much more.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 4, 2014 at 5:10 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> A type 2 fire with a type 2 overhead should be and
>> normally is a hands on operation
>> We are not talking about 1000 plus man power fire.
It really does seem like Roy Hall was suffering from that sort of ‘misconception of scale’ from the moment he arrived. He had agreed to ‘IC’ the thing… but even when they had to scrape for DIVS in the morning and pull a guy off a Hotshot crew who had only been a DIVS about one other time in his life ( Eric Marsh )… Roy Hall seemed to be pretending it was some large fire with a lot of OPS and DIVS people and all he had to do was the usual ‘start of shift’ briefings and then ‘back off and let people do their jobs’.
He then busied himself with all the things a ‘Planning OPS’ should be doing instead of being the IC of the fire burning outside his office… or something.
The only time he seemed to get ‘hands on’ that day was when the very building HE was in started to be threatened by the fire.
Even while evacuations were in progress… he called for a ‘stand-up’ meeting at the ICP that was only about what TOMORROW was going to look like and how the transition to the type 1 structure should go down.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> This was a glaring failure in leadership and the investigation
>> should have noted it as well.
Yes. They should have… and not from any kind of standpoint of ‘crucifying’ anyone… but from a ‘Lessons Learned’ perspective.
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> So the State was responsible for what happened and
>> deserved the fines levied and much more.
What happened with ADOSH is that the moment they knew they had enough evidence to justify what basically amounts to the MAXIMUM fines they are even allowed to impose… they basically ‘called it a day’ and stopped investigating the incident.
There is a LIMIT to the fines that Arizona OSHA can impose.
The Yarnell incident was basically pegging their meter on ‘unsafe workplace’ and ‘maximum penalties’ even before they finished their first round of interviews… so they had no real incentive to actually ‘get to the real bottom’ of some things like where ALL the points of ‘failure’ really were.
Followup…
In January of 2014, a Law Firm in Arizona issued a pretty good ‘summary’ of the ADOSH Yarnell decision(s) as an ‘advisory’ to employers.
It shows how ADOSH basically hit the Arizona Forestry department with ‘everything it had’ with regard to one WILLFUL violation and two SERIOUS violations.
Even if they had continued their investigation they couldn’t have gone any higher than the fines that were imposed for the ‘violations’ that they determined were obvious and provable with evidence.
ARIZONA
EMPLOYMENT LAW LETTER
Part of your Arizona Employment Law Service
Dinita L. James, Editor January 2014
Gonzalez Saggio & Harlan LLP
WORKPLACE SAFETY
Safety, admin, wf,
Article Title: ADOSH levies huge fine for deaths of Yarnell Hotsho
http://www.gshllp.com/download/AZ%20Emp%20Law%20Letter%20DLJ%20January%202014.pdf
From the article…
————————————————————-
After months of investigating, the ADOSH recommended issuing three major workplace safety citations. On December 4, 2013, the Arizona Industrial Commission unanimously approved the citations and penalties totaling $559,000 against the ADOF. Of that, $84,000 will be passed among state accounts, and $25,000 will go directly to each of the families or estates of the 19 “hotshots” who died fighting the Yarnell Hill blaze.
* Violations put lives in jeopardy
The ADOSH categorized one citation as “willful serious.” The ADOSH concluded that the ADOF knowingly put the 19 hotshots and more than 60 other firefighters at risk of smoke inhalation, burns, and death in a futile mission to protect buildings and pasture land.
The two other citations fell in the “serious” category and were based on the ADOF’s failure to have a detailed plan in place during a “life[-]threatening transition between initial attack and extended attack operations” and for allowing “critical incident management personnel” to be absent or late at crucial times during the transition.
* Tragedy highlights ADOSH’s duties
The ADOSH operates under an approved plan with the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) and has initial jurisdiction over all occupational health and safety issues and violations in Arizona (except those involving mines, Indian reservations, and federal employees).The ADOSH has extensive consultation and training programs and welcomes opportunities to help businesses improve workplace safety.
* Maximum penalties imposed
The magnitude of the penalty for the Yarnell Hill fire can be seen by comparing it to the total penalties assessed by the ADOSH during fiscal year 2013, which ran from October 1, 2012, through September 30, 2013. During the fiscal year, the penalties assessed by the ADOSH totaled $875,732.
The maximum fine the ADOSH can assess for a willful violation is $70,000. For serious violations, the max is $7,000. Thus, the ADOSH hit the ADOF with all the penalties it had available ($84,000 for one willful violation and two serious violations). The five-member Industrial Commission has to approve ADOSH citations that assess penalties of more than $2,500. The ADOF can appeal the citations to an administrative law judge. The ADOF has announced its intention to appeal.
————————————————————-
What is also interesting from above is that explanation about ADOSH’s ‘jurisdiction’.
The article says…
“The ADOSH operates under an approved plan with the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) and has initial jurisdiction over all occupational health and safety issues and violations in Arizona (except those involving mines, Indian reservations, and federal employees).”
Notice that ‘jurisdictional exception’ if there are FEDERAL EMPLOYEES involved.
Well… there WERE, in fact, a lot of ‘Federal Employees’ involved in the Yarnell incident at both the management, command, and line-duty levels,
BLM employees in management/command, Blue Ridge Hotshots, DC10 VLATS are Federally owned and operated and one of them almost crashed, etc. etc.
A lot of these ‘Federal Employees’ came very close to being hurt or injured that day along with everyone else.
Given this fact… it’s a wonder that it was ONLY Arizona OSHA that was tasked with the full ‘jurisdiction’ for investigating this incident.
You would think the Federal OSHA would have ALSO wanted to do its own investigation and ( perhaps ) issue its OWN fines and/or citations.
This is splitting a hair, but, just for the record, the DC-10 VLATs are not federally owned/operated. They’re privately owned, privately piloted, and they are CONTRACTED by whoever contracts them. During their first several years of use, they (and their crews) were contracted by the State of California.
Very few of the aerial resources on fires are owned by the government. And, for the most part, only the ASMs and Lead Planes are even piloted by federal employees.
I’m wondering if the “involved” term depends on how “involved” is defined.
As we have learned, if a Forest Service employee had been killed, a federal investigation would have kicked in. Since none was, the Forest Service, from the get-go, stepped in to “protected its assets” (even possibly including, to some extent, Brendan McDonough?).
The BLM doesn’t have the same legislated mandate, but it DID step in also to “protect its assets.” Rance Marquez, Rusty Warbis, and Paul Lenmark were the only BLM employees who really seriously cooperated with the ADOSH investigation. ADOSH had to jump through additional hoops just to access B-33’s aerial photos. And, it’s obvious, in their interview, that Warbis and Lenmark were quite nervous about the whole process. They could have easily chosen to not be interviewed.
I also found it interesting, in the Warbis/Lenmark interview, that the ADOSH investigators had been provided access to the Department of Agriculture Air Study videos, but the version of those videos that they were provided had all the NAMES bleeped out, except for Rusty Warbis’ (which he was not happy about). I guess that was an “oops.”
I find myself speculating what would have been the process if it had been Bea Day’s full Type 2 Team that had been in charge (other than that I don’t think this complete debacle would have happened if it had been).
But still.
It’s an Arizona Central West Team, but Bea Day is a USFS employee, as are many of its members.
It was assigned to the Extended Attack on the Thompson Ridge Fire, on the Valles Caldera National Preserve in New Mexico, just weeks before the Yarnell Hill Fire. Granite Mountain IHC was on that fire.
What if Granite Mountain IHC had done something like what they did at Yarnell at that fire?
I wonder, what kind of investigation(s) THAT would have kicked in?
Bob and WTKTT
Reading what you two are writing here after spending several days creating a visual/descriptive data-base of all the aircraft/aerial crews flying on the fire that day, including atgs and asm (and that has been a bit challenging), and then re-reading B-3’s interview several times and thinking it may be a bit more complicated/muddy than in my Friday rant, but I still think the principles I wrote about stand.
I find myself agreeing with both of you, but also, standing in some place in between you.
To me the culprit is the Type 2 SHORT team.
Regarding what Bob wrote, if a Type 2 Team is supposed to be more “hands on” than “bureaucratic,” it seems to me it needs to be, at least, big enough to actually have the people needed to actually fight the fire from the get-go.
This team, as ordered, was never resourced sufficiently to take charge of the fire and fight it, and, thus, Roy Hall spent Sunday in that office on that telephone, while ignoring the radio, assuming his OPS were capable of handling the fire, patching up the holes all over his team, while the people actually trying to fight the fire were, obviously, overwhelmed by it.
WTKTT wrote, “Roy Hall seemed to be pretending it was some large fire with a lot of OPS and DIVS people”
I’m not sure I agree with that. But I do think he must have thought there were about 3/4 the necessary resources on it and, thus, he could quickly sew patches over the holes by calling in parts of Bea Day’s team etc, so that the fire-fighters could stay at least somewhat on top of the fire,
What he missed was what Bravo 3 was seeing and (ineffectively) trying to communicate (after which they dove into attempting to support a strategy that was, by their own forecast, doomed to fail). And since he didn’t “do radios,” because he was accustomed to relying on/trusting his (inadequate) resources, he became so myopic in his bureaucratic endeavors, he had no idea of the larger scope of the fire that was actually happening all around him.
(I’m “thinking out loud” here).
Roy Hall was, obviously, aware that the resources ordered the night before (including his Type 2 Short Team) were insufficient to contain/control the fire.
Maybe what he wasn’t aware of was HOW SIGNIFICANTLY insufficient those resources were. He trusted them to “carry on” while he tried to “patch up the current holes” while trying to figure out what to do about TOMORROW. Not realizing that TOMORROW was going to be too late.
Which brings me to what you said, WTKTT.
“He had agreed to ‘IC’ the thing…”
I think this is the crux of the matter. The ordering of an insufficient team and the agreeing to fill it.
He agreed to fill it.
AZ Department of Forestry decided to order it.
Shumate went along with that. He hadn’t done an Escaped Fire Analysis. Apparently he was too tired to do that. Or something.
So there wasn’t sufficient data on the table, and sufficient mental energy, to challenge AZ DOF ordering a Type 2 Short Team, when, as we all now know, in hindsight, that was inappropriate given the extreme potential of the extreme fire behavior given the expected weather that manifested itself the next day, and, also, given that there was a FULL Type 2 Team available.
So, in my muddled mind, I’m wondering, which particular whos are responsible, and how, for accurately sizing up an escaped fire and, thus, the necessary resources (including the appropriate kind of IMT and the acceptance by the IC of that IMT of that fire), needed to fight it?
Right now I see a pretty serious FAIL on the part of Shumate, for, seemingly, being too brain-dead to do an Escaped Fire Analysis, AZ FIRE for blithely ordering up an obviously inadequate Type 2 IMT, and (I hate to say it) Roy Hall for agreeing to accept that assignment without requiring the necessary Escaped Fire Analysis before doing so.
And maybe the Lessons Learned here is that this stuff needs to be done WAY before (If I Remember Correctly) those late late night conversations that apparently took place as these decisions apparently were made.
I think you are hitting the nail on the head.
The big problem is the lack of conviction by many States to hit the resource button and increase the cost per acre of a wild land brush fire.
thus the reluctance to call in a type 2 or type 1 team. and enough resources to deal with the fire.
A evaluation that morning in hind site would have put what resources they had to work protecting The towns and admitted they could not contain the entire fire that day.
Also the absolute waste of retardant and its cost could have been better used in helping burnouts around the towns and build buffer zones to keep the fires out of the towns had that happened that morning.
You have to realize what your resources can do and adjust accordingly.
The State had the ability to make the escape fire Analysis and act accordingly. They basically failed to recognize the problem and expend the extra cost to put a team and manpower in place. The investigation should have also talked with the dispatch center and overhead making those decisions at the State level. Lets not for get on the 29th this fire went from IA containment to 400 plus Acres.
Just a point of information since it looks like this point has not yet been brought up here (although admittedly I am behind and have not been following well): John Burfiend was not deliberately ignoring anyone. According to what I am understanding from the guys who were there, at least the first couple of calls that were made by “Granite Mountain 7” looking for help when they were cut off by the flaming front were made on Tac 1, as opposed to actually being made on Air-to-Ground. Tac 1 was not a priority scan channel for Burfiend, as well it should not be, and, for those of you who do not understand radios, if you are communicating on or receiving an incoming call on one of your priority channels, you are not going to hear other communications. So if Dispatch was calling Burfiend to tell him that Wickenburg was out of retardant (guess where I got that from?), Burfiend most certainly would not have heard Steed or Caldwell or whomever it was calling on Tac 1.
Also, contrary to what some might be suggesting, Burfiend had multiple channels or frequencies to monitor, and he had his hands full (as did Tom French, which is why Tom French wanted to finish his dry run with the VLAT so that he could drop that plane and turn it around quickly). Airguard would obviously be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that. Next would be air-related dispatch or command channels or frequencies, next would be air-to-ground, next might be a second air-to-ground channel, next would be the air-to-air channels (of which there were multiple), and next would be the tactical channels. Burfiend was incredibly busy once Air Attack left, and my impression (although I have not had time to read all this and catch up) is that not everyone here is aware of that.
I hope this helps.
Looks like a repeat of your Blog to me…….
We are all aware of your attacks and BS. on who is not who.
Reply to Elizabeth post on October 4, 2014 at 10:15 am
>> Elizabeth wrote…
>>
>> I am behind and have not been following well.
Scroll down ( or use your Browser’s FIND option ) for a thread with the title…
** WAS THERE A MAYDAY CALL ON TAC 1 CHANNEL BEFORE 1639 A2G CALLS?
It contains a long discussion related to exactly what you are now commenting on.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> John Burfiend was not deliberately ignoring anyone.
Yes… he was.
See the discussion noted above and the transcripts of recorded conversations.
For a known amount of time… he was ‘choosing not to respond’ ( I call that ignoring ) to BOTH ‘Granite Mountain 7’ AND OPS1 Todd Abel asking him if he was ‘copying’ that traffic on Air-To-Ground.
Immediately after even just the first “We are in front of the flaming front” MADAY call from Jesse Steed captured in the Helmet-Cam video… OPS1 Todd Abel called Burfiend on the Air-To-Ground channel right away ( 13 seconds after that first MAYDAY ) and specifically asked Burfiend if he had heard that first MAYDAY call. Todd Abel himself even SAYS that transmissions was, in fact, on the “Air-To-Ground” channel and NOT on a TAC channel.
His exact question to Burfiend ( which also was ignored ) just 13 seconds after Steed’s first MAYDAY and BEFORE even the second MAYDAY call was…
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on air to ground?
So even Todd Abel knew that first MAYDAY captured in the Helmet-Cam had just now come over the Air-To-Ground channel and NOT a ‘TAC’ channel.
About TWO minutes later… when Burfiend finally does chose to answer OPS1 Abel… he says ( TWICE ) that he WAS hearing all that traffic… including Abel’s initial call to him which he had also chosen to ‘not respond to’.
I’m not going to reproduce the transcripts that prove all this up here.
I have already done so down below in the previous discussion.
You can just scroll down for the transcripts if you feel the need.
This is not ‘testimony’ in an interview that establishes all this as FACT.
It is all in the RECORDINGS and in the words of the men themselves.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> According to what I am understanding from the guys who were
>> there, at least the first couple of calls that were made by
>> “Granite Mountain 7″ looking for help when they were cut off by
>> the flaming front were made on Tac 1, as opposed to actually being
>> made on Air-to-Ground.
See above.
In the actual Helmet-Cam recording… Todd Abel himself confirms that the “We are in front of the flaming front” MAYDAY call came over the Air-To-Ground channel and NOT a TAC channel. The Air-To-Ground channel WAS John Burfiend’s ‘priority channel’ at that time.
Regardless… There has always been that one piece of testimony in Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart’s Brown Unit Log which says that as he and Brian Frisby were evacuating the Shrine area and about to turn off of Shrine Road to head south on HIghway 89… they heard an ’emergency’ call from ‘Granite Mountain’ on a TAC channel. ( Just one call ).
The same BR Unit Log then also says that just a few minutes after that ( as they were now heading SOUTH on Highway 89 ) they heard MORE ’emergency’ calls… but this time they were coming over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
On July 4, during a media tour, Helicopter 5KA support person Todd Pedersen became the first Yarnell firefighter to admit that there WAS radio traffic from Granite Mountain just prior to the deployment… and that he had HEARD it. He said he first heard someone from Granite Mountain trying to ‘contact their Supervisor’. That SOUNDS like it might have been Pedersen hearing a call on a TAC channel ( since Bravo 33 on A2G was certainly NOT GM’s ‘Supervisor )… but before Pedersen could say anything else that day an Arizona Forestry official stepped in and basically told Pedersen to “Shut The Fuck Up” about any RADIO traffic he may have heard that day.
So even the media was not permitted to ‘followup’ on what Pedersen had just said and discover more detail about what radio channel he was talking about.
This STFU moment happened right in front of the media and they even then turned to the AZ official and were asking WHY Pedersen was being told to ‘Shut Up’.
All the AZ official would say was… “If there was any radio traffic from the crew around the time of deployment there still wouldn’t have been time for a rescue mission”.
On July 4, Arizona Forestry was probably already aware that Bea Day team off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd had that ‘Helmet-Cam’ video which captured these very radio transmissions Todd Pedersen was telling the media he heard himself… but they were probably still thinking ( on July 4 ) that maybe they would never have to even admit it existed or let anyone know what was on it. So that’s probably why the STFU order was given to Todd Pedersen regarding RADIO traffic.
So there has ALWAYS been some evidence of at least 1 ’emergency’ call taking place on a TAC channel just prior to the THREE MAYDAY calls that went out over the Air-To-Ground channel… but there is no doubt that the MAYDAY calls all heard in the Helmet-Cam are the ones that took place over Air-To-Ground, and NOT a ‘TAC’ channel.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Tac 1 was not a priority scan channel for Burfiend
Probably not. Doesn’t matter.
The MAYDAY calls ( and calls from OPS1 Todd Abel ) that he was choosing to not respond to for up to 2 minutes were coming directly to him over the Air-To-Ground channel… which WAS his ‘priority scan’ channel at that moment.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> as well it should not be, and, for those of you who do not understand
>> radios, if you are communicating on or receiving an incoming call on
>> one of your priority channels, you are not going to hear other
>> communications.
That’s correct…. but the MAYDAY calls captured in the Helmet-Cam were all coming over the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel… and that WAS Burfiend’s priority channel.
He also says himself ( TWO TIMES ) in the Helmet-Cam video itself that he WAS hearing those transmissions.
That is not ‘guesswork’ or even ‘opinion’
The very man to whom those radio calls were being addressed says HIMSELF that he was, in fact HEARING them. He was simply choosing to NOT respond for upwards of 2 minutes.
When he finally did choose to respond to ‘Granite Mountain 7’… it was simply to tell them to ‘stop hollering’. Even then he wasn’t even making it a priority to see what they wanted or why they might have been frantically calling HIM.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> So if Dispatch was calling Burfiend to tell him that Wickenburg was
>> out of retardant (guess where I got that from?), Burfiend most certainly
>> would not have heard Steed or Caldwell or whomever it was
>> calling on Tac 1.
I repeat… there is evidence that there MAY have been an ’emergency’ call from GM over a TAC channel that day… but if it happened at all it was PRIOR to the MAYDAY calls captured in Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet-Cam video.
So if that TAC call PRIOR to the Helmet-Cam really took place… then Yes… Burfiend might have missed it… but even Todd Pedersen seems to suggest THAT call wasn’t even DIRECTED at ‘Air Attack’. If it went out over a TAC channel… it was probably to OPS1 Able ( their Supervisor ) just as Pedersen seems to have suggested.
As for all three MAYDAY calls captured in the Helmet-Cam… ALL of them were coming straight to Burfiend over the Air-To-Ground channel… and he WAS ( by his own admission ) hearing them.
He was simply choosing not to respond to them.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Also, contrary to what some might be suggesting, Burfiend
>> had multiple channels or frequencies to monitor, and he
>> had his hands full (as did Tom French, which is why Tom French
>> wanted to finish his dry run with the VLAT so that he could drop
>> that plane and turn it around quickly). Airguard would obviously
>> be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that.
( Heavy sigh ) Yes. They did.
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>>
>> Next would be air-related dispatch or command channels
>> or frequencies, next would be air-to-ground, next might be
>> a second air-to-ground channel, next would be the air-to-air
>> channels (of which there were multiple), and next would be
>> the tactical channels. Burfiend was incredibly busy once
>> Air Attack left, and my impression (although I have not had
>> time to read all this and catch up) is that not everyone here
>> is aware of that.
>>
>> I hope this helps.
Nope. Doesn’t help at all.
You have your CART way out in front of your HORSE.
Your entire comment is trying to establish multiple reasons why John Burfiend simply may not have ever even HEARD the MAYDAY calls from Granite Mountain.
There is NO QUESTION that he DID actually HEAR them.
He says so himself, in his own words, in the Helmet-Cam video itself.
So your attempt to establish all these reasons why he might NOT have heard them is simply the CART being WAY out in front of the HORSE.
The HORSE himself says he HEARD them.
There is no ‘guesswork’ involved when it comes to the three MAYDAY calls
captured in the Helmet-Cam.
All THREE of THOSE calls were definitely coming straight to Burfiend over the Air-To-Ground channel and the man himself says ( in the video itself ) that he WAS hearing them.
Even Todd Abel verifies with his own call to Burfiend that the very first MAYDAY from Steed was over the ‘Air-To-Ground” channel.
Burfiend was even then ignoring OPS1 Todd Abel, as well as Granite Mountain.
It is only some 2 minutes later, after Burfiend finally responds to yet another call from OPS1 Todd Abel ( and Abel basically tells him to get his head out of his ass and RESPOND to those men who were desperately trying to communicate with him ) does John Burfiend finally ‘wake up’ and make any attempt to talk to them.
It also really makes no difference at all what CHANNEL those MAYDAYS went out on.
Each one of them was VERBALLY specifying WHO the intended target was.
Here are those THREE radio calls from GM again…
—————————————————————–
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
In all three cases… it was obvious WHO they were trying to communicate with… but that person was CHOOSING not to respond to them until he was ORDERED by an Operations level person to do so.
As I have said before many times… I do not personally believe those 2 minutes that were lost that day just trying to get John Burfiend to answer emergency calls on the radio would have made much of a difference on June 30, 2013. Those ‘lost’ two minutes would have been more than enough time to actually pinpoint their location… but I still don’t think ‘Bravo 33′ and VLAT 910 would have been able to help them. It would have still been too late.
But someday… those 2 minutes of simply trying to get someone in an airplane to actually RESPOND to ’emergency’ calls COULD make a difference.
A BIG difference.
Someday ( hopefully not soon ) those TWO full minutes COULD mean the difference between life and death.
Minor correction for above…
>> Elizabeth also wrote…
>> Airguard would obviously be Burfiend’s priority, but GM7 did not call on that.
>>
>> ( Heavy sigh ) Yes. They did.
GM7 did NOT actually call out on the actual Air Guard ‘Channel 16’ that day.
They only THOUGHT that was the channel they were using at first.
It makes no difference with relation to this particular discussion.
John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’ would have been the designated ‘target’ for ANY calls on either Channel 10 ( A2G ) or Channel 16 ( A2G ).
It also makes no difference because the intended target for ALL of those MAYDAY calls was being verbally NAMED in the calls themselves and everyone who has testified to hearing them has also testified they knew exactly WHO Granite Mountain was desperately trying to communicate with.
Burfiend HEARD those radio calls. He (himself) SAYS that he did.
WTKTT—I fear you are talking to a blank wall that really dose not want to deal with any facts that are not hers, but a well stated rebuttal. Hard to disagree with
what you have said as you have found facts to back it up.
OH I forgot she thinks your some one named Fred who she is not happy with either. Back to our discussion——
There are still a LOT of things that are ‘mysteries’ and remain ‘unknown’ about what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013…
…but whether or not the 3 MAYDAY calls that were captured by Aaron Hulburd’s Helmet Camera came over the A2G channel or not… and whether or not the target of those calls ( John Burfiend ) actually HEARD them…
…are NOT part of the ‘mysteries’.
Burfiend (himself) told Todd Abel he heard them ( in real time ).
Burfiend was ( for whatever reason ) not responding to them until he was ORDERED to do so ( by OPS1 Todd Abel ).
Burfiend then later says he thought it was just some Structure Protection Group calling… when it was clearly NOT.
There is an awful lot of critical information that might have been exchanged in those TWO full minutes that is now lost because Burfiend seemed to be the ONLY one hearing those transmissions who did NOT realize this was an EMERGENCY…
…and I still think that, alone, is reason enough for the WFF industry to, once and for all, establish a known MAYDAY / EMERGENCY radio protocol.
Someday… eliminating that kind of confusion for a full TWO minutes might save a life.
Back to our discussion——
I have herd a rumor that there is actually more helmet cam footage
that was cut from the original and will be coming out soon.
I believe it is the beginning footage that was removed by the SAIT investigation but still exists so maybe more answers to come????
I am sure it has already occurred to the lawyers for the families that all THREE of the Bea Day team off-the-radar hires ( Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) can be ‘compelled to testify’.
Aaron Hulburd shot that ‘Helmet Cam’ video.
HE knows, for sure and certain, WHEN he started filming, exactly WHY he decided to do it, and what ELSE he might have also simply HEARD before and after the filming itself that seemed to compel him to shoot that video.
The SAIT either didn’t feel the need to interview these 3 men ( or they actually DID and they are still concealing that fact ).
ADOSH didn’t interview them because the SAIT made it as difficult as possible for anyone to even figure out that these 3 men were actually THERE and playing a crucial role in both the deployment radio traffic AND the actual location of the bodies.
These men were not just ‘bystanders’ in this incident.
Between their activities on Shrine Road, the Helmet Cam video, and their eventual direct participation in the ground search mission that eventually located the bodies…
…they were KEY WITNESSES to the events of that day.
I’m sure the lawyers for the families know this ( now ).
We shall see what we shall see.
On a lighter note, after the rather pain-filled post I wrote below about the utter complete FAIL that was both this fire’s response and its investigations.
The Erickson Air-Crane “749” N232AC, that was hard at work on the Yarnell Hill Fire (including what looked like a possible near-miss collision with a Tanker DC 10) was given, this year, a new number and a new paint-job.
It now has the number “741” and it’s new name is…..
“Marty” !!!
Here’s a photo of it, in Australia, where the Erickson Air-Cranes regularly fly:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/legoblock/5583869245/
Typo alert:
N232AC should read N243AC.
I’ve found something interesting that I did’t know I had in my vast collection of photos/videos of the Yarnell Hill Fire.
Photos of the 4:33 PM retardant drop and the five subsequent drops that connected to it in a continuous line, including the 5:57 T 910 drop.
They’re in Shannon Moore’s set. And Shannon Moore’s “handwritten notes” fairly consistently describe them.
I’ve been trying to “map” them (while I really need to be fixing my kitchen window which is stuck on “wide open” as it’s getting colder every morning), but I’m not that good at doing that. You’re better at that than I am, WTKTT. I’d love to see what you could come up with.
I’ve mapped him (his photos have the GPS data on them) standing at 34°14’32.92″N 112°44’12.09″W; the powerline pole he’s holding in his photos for reference at 34°14’32.11″N 112°44’13.30″W; and the closest rockpile near/behind/kind of to the right of that powerline pole at 34°14’24.29″N 112°44’35.49″W.
I also wish I knew how to “draw” the retardant line we see through Yarnell onto my Google Earth map. That would really help orientate this.
Moore’s photos are in various sub-folders here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AAAsLPbCY40Q6BhCP8znRt3Ha/AerialFirefightingstudy/Moore?dl=0
Moore’s “hand-written notes” are here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AABBOZGM7CAoMByKSOzMfh6Ya/AerialFirefightingstudy/Moore/Moore%20Handwritten%20Notes?dl=0
Panebaker’s log of the drops is here:
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/AAC3s2Q9J5Y6VimixoWAFOkfa/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Panebaker%20Photo%20and%20Video%20Information.docx?dl=0
Reply to Marti Reed post on October 3, 2014 at 1:53 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> WTKTT. I’d love to see what you could come up with.
Marti… just wanted to let you know I’m not ignoring this request.
I am flying around on a bunch of airplanes again at the moment
and I will get to this when I can.
Thx! I thought you’d be interested.
I’m sure you’ve noticed how ‘disjointed’ some of those pictures are in the Moore ‘Pictures’ folder with regards to SEQUENCE NUMBER versus TIME.
They sort of ‘jump around in time’ and you can’t rely on the actual filename sequence numbers.
Also…. in just the Moore ‘Pictures’ folder alone… there are THREE different locations where the photos were taken.
ALL of the THREE locations are on the west shoulder of HIghway 89 and at various places along that Maughn Ranch ‘white rail fence’.
The closest location to Yarnell is only 4,695 feet north of the driveway of the U-Store-It Facility there on the norther ourskirts of Yarnell.
I’m still working on a full ‘summary’ ( and the mapping you requested ).
Your own GPS coordinates seem to be correct for that ‘second’ location where Moore was shooting photos. That ‘second’ location ( with the telephone poles in the foreground ) was midway between the other TWO places used for taking photos along Highway 89.
There is no mystery about the drops seen in any of the photos
taken around 2:41 PM to 2:50 PM.
Those are retardant drops that are actually COMPLETING the EASTERN part of that long west-to-east retardant line that ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided was needed as early as 12:30 PM that day.
That’s the retardant line they, themselves, decided to put in clear across that valley after they arrived on the fire and immediately KNEW that the fire was GOING to be headed into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle.
Specifically… these two show the ‘completion’ of the west-east line.
Warbis and Lenmark took it across the valley and then ‘through the hills’ on the eastern side and these photos just show the completion of that long retardant line as they were ‘bringing it through the foothills’ there…
This retardant line as shown in the actual SAIR report ( big red line on one of their maps ) is accurate and these Moore photos show the drops that created that EASTERN end of the ‘red line’ on that SAIR map.
Folder = Moore / Pictures
20130630_Yarnell_SM.JPG – 1441.50 ( 2:41.50 PM )
20130630_Yarnell_SM(1).JPG – 1441.52 ( 2:41.52 PM )
These photo actually shows the completion of that long retardant line that was the idea of ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) shortly after they arrived in Yarnell circa 12:30 PM.
Mackenzie photos IMG_0883 and IMG_0884 both show this same completion of the eastern end of the retardant line.
The Moore photos were at 1441:50-52 ( 2:41.50-52 PM )
IMG_0883 was taken at 1450.30 ( 2:50.30 PM ) ( 8 mins and 38 secs later )
IMG_0884 was taken at 1450.44 ( 2:50.44 PM ) ( 14 seconds after 0883 )
The 2 MacKenzie photos in the 1450 timerange are basically just showing the same drops photographed by Moore from the OPPOSITE ( Highway 89 ) side as that long west-east retardant line was being completed.
More later…
**
** TODD PEDERSEN SPOKE DIRECTLY WITH ‘BRAVO 3’
** DURING DEPLOYMENT SEARCH MISSION
No great revelation here… but an interesting piece of communication.
We already know that Todd Pedersen WAS there in Yarnell at the time of
the deployment so he is now officially on record as the first firefighter to
have reported ( on July 4 ) that there WERE radio communications from
GM just prior to deployment and that he HEARD them.
But in Bravo 3’s ADOSH interview ( Warbis and Lenmark ) there is the
following additional proof that Pedersen was there along with
Helicopter 5KA.
Shortly after the deployment and shortly after Warbis and Lenmark took
over ‘Air Attack’ duties from the departing ‘Bravo 33’ ( French and Burfiend ),
Bravo 3 wanted to know if any helicopters working the fire were ‘rappel
capable’.
‘Bravo 3’ was told to contact Todd Pedersen, who was there with 5KA,
and he then describes the following conversation he had with Pedersen…
—————————————————————-
1930 A or A1: There’s a lot of stuff flying here. We don’t have – these guys get – we pass
1931 ‘em through. They need to be able to land. Um, I ask him if there’s any of the
1932 helicopters the – the command or the agency helicopters that are repel capable.
1933 Um, he lets me know that Price Valley is there that they are, um, there in
1934 town. I ask – I get a hold – he says contact Peterson.
1935
1936 Q: Right.
1937
1938 A or A1: I call Peterson and say hey, man I need to go back. Um, let me know when
1939 you’re repel capable. Ranger 58 is still doing their, um, their search and, you
1940 know, by timeframes there’s just a lot…
1941
1942 Q: Right.
1943
1944 A or A1: You know, when all that all…
1945
1946 Q: Uh-huh.
1947
1948 A or A1: Um…
1949
1950 Q: So you were able to get in touch with Price Valley?
1951
1952 A or A1: I did. I had Peterson…
1953
1954 A or A1: (Unintelligible).
1955
1956 A or A1: He was – they were in the battle. (Unintelligible).
1957
1958 Q: Right.
1959
1960 A or A1: Um, he says we can’t repel anyway ‘cause of winds. I say, you know what,
1961 um, I need ya to go back.
1962
1963 Q: Yeah.
1964
1965 A or A1: You know, you have to tell me when you’re repel capable.
1966
1967 Q: Yeah.
1968
1969 A or A1: Winds (unintelligible) don’t know but if, um, (unintelligible) for…
1970
1971 Q: Yeah.
1972
1973 A or A1: …or to do a (unintelligible) or whatever…
1974
1975 Q: Right.
1976
1977 A or A1: Um, (unintelligible).
1978
1979 Q: Yeah.
1980
1981 A or A1: And they did. They went back.
1982
1983 Q: They did – they did go get, ah…
1984
1985 A or A1: Yeah.
1986
1987 Q: …geared up and they were ready.
1988
1989 A or A1: Yeah, I couldn’t tell ya the timeframe (unintelligible).
1990
1991 Q: Okay – okay.
1992
1993 A or A1: (Unintelligible) were repel capable. Um, (unintelligible) those helicopters are
1994 all ingress/egress. Another Air Attack, in that fray, um, shows up – this is
1995 after we found ‘em.
1996
1997 Q: Right.
1998
1999 A or A1: Helicopter – Ranger 58 calls and says I got packs.
————————————————————————
**
** ERIC MARSH WAS NOT HELPING ‘BRAVO 3’ LAY RETARDANT?
This is related to the information below about how we know it was ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) that decided ‘on their own’ to start laying that long line of retardant out there across that valley from west to east.
They made this decision themselves just after arriving and just after directing some retardant drops around the Double-Bar-A-Ranch where Darrell Wills and his crews were still working and were already getting dangerously close to being ‘entrapped’.
After then taking a spin around the entire fire… they were so sure that Yarnell was going to (quote) “come into play” THAT afternoon… during THAT burn cycle… they decided to start laying that line of retardant because ( in their words ) “Someone had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell”.
Well… this now goes back to discussion way down below and an ‘idea’ that I, myself, had about maybe Eric Marsh had been participating in the laying of this long retardant line… and so Eric Marsh *may* have still believed later in the day that that was his JOB ( as DIVSA ) that day.
My theory was that ( perhaps ) since Marsh had been directing those retardant drops across the valley from about 12:45 PM to 2:00 PM… that he still may have believed it was his RESPONSIBILITY to ‘get to town’ later that afternoon and continue the same work of ‘directing retardant drops on the south end of the fire”.
At this time… I can now say there really is no evidence to support that ‘theory’.
There is no real evidence that DIVSA Eric Marsh was actually ‘participating’, in any way, in the laying of that long line of retardant out there across the valley.
In their ADOSH interview… Warbis and Lenmark make it clear that this was THEIR idea of simply doing SOMETHING to try and prevent what they were sure was inevitable even as early as 12:30 PM that day. That the fire was already ‘switching around’ even that early in the burn cycle and, given the massive fuel loads and the extreme fire conditions, SOMEONE better do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell.
They even detail to ADOSH how they, themselves, decided to use the Skycrane Helicopter to try and ‘connect’ the retardant line out to the black on the western ridge and they would then be using the VLAT that was on scene circa 12:45 PM to start building the retardant line all the way back to the east to just north of the Harper Canyon area.
This is, of course, what then led to that near-fatal accident between the Skycrane and the VLAT.
But even after that near-miss… they still felt it was important to ‘continue that retardant line’ and they also tell ADOSH how they, themselves, were ‘choosing the targets’ at the eastern edge and they were trying to follow an existing Jeep Trail over there on the east as it would its way near the Harper Canyon area and up over those eastern mounds.
NOWHERE in all these descriptions of their plans and activities with regards to the building of this ‘indirect’ retardant line do they ever mention speaking with, or consulting with, ‘Division A’ or anyone named ‘Eric Marsh’.
That whole retardant line was something THEY were doing.
They didn’t need anyone’s advice and there isn’t even any real evidence they asked anyone on the ground for any ‘permission’ to do it.
They do say they ‘discussed their plans’ with ‘Division Z’ ( even though they never knew that his name was ‘Rance Marquez ), but this was the person who was about to ‘disappear’ that day ( from the radio, anyway ) and not even hang around at the south end of the fire to actually manage the very Division he had been assigned.
We also know ( from other testimony ) that DIVSA Eric Marsh apparently heard this conversation between the newly-arrived Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ and the also newly-arrived Division Z Rance Marquez. That is the conversation that then led to the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Marquez when Marquez actually did get to talk to Marsh following his ‘chat’ with ‘Bravo 3’.
Marsh mis-understood what that conversation was even all about. Marquez says he couldn’t contact Marsh at first and so he called up to ‘Air Attack’ to just try and get a ‘heads up’ about what the fire was doing. Marsh thought Marquez was trying to ‘take real-estate away from him’ and, hence, the argument ensued about where the actual boundary between ‘Division A’ and ‘Division Z’ really should be.
All that being said… what I’m pointing out here is that if ‘Bravo 3’ really did discuss their new plan to build that line of retardant across the valley with ‘Division Z’… and that is the same conversation we are told that Marsh overheard and it ‘pissed him off’…. then it is more than likely DIVSA Eric Marsh knew about this plan to build that line of retardant across that valley.
However… there is then NO evidence that Marsh even had any kind of opinion about it… or even felt it was his job as DIVSA to consult with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ about it.
So there really is NO evidence that Marsh was involved, in any way, with this retardant line.
Hence… no real evidence that Marsh could have thought it was his JOB to be directing retardant drops there on the south side of the fire even later that day… or at least no evidence that Marsh would been SO convinced that is why he had to get at least HIMSELF to town even under dangerous conditions that it would explain his ( and Steed’s ) fateful decisions later that day.
I suppose it is still POSSIBLE that ‘getting to town ASAP to direct drops’ COULD have played some part in Marsh’s motivation to ‘get to town’ later that day… but the evidence he might have been thinking that way isn’t found in the ‘Bravo 3’ testimony.
** SO WHAT WAS MARSH REALLY DOING ALL AFTERNOON, THEN?
All of this still now raises another interesting question.
If there is no evidence whatsoever that Eric Marsh thought his ‘job’ as DIVSA out on that western ridge that day was to be helping to lay that west-to-east retardant line… then what WAS he really doing for those several hours between when he met Brian Frisby and Trueheart Brown at the anchor point… and then we don’t hear from him again until Brendan is evacuating and Frisby asks him if Blue Ridge should move the GM buggies for them?
Marsh and Steed met with Frisby and Brown for that ‘face-to-face’ for 30 minutes from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM. Frisby and Brown departed back east with Brendan now in the back of the BR UTV and they dropped him off at his lookout position and then continued back east.
After that face-to-face meeting ( 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM )… it has always been assumed that DIVSA Eric Marsh went NORTH on the high-ridge again and was continuing these vague ‘scouting’ duties that the SAIR itself says he was doing that day.
We also know that DURING this ‘face-to-face’ is when Marquez showed up back down in the Sesame area and after Marquez ‘consulted’ with Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’… Marsh was all pre-pissed off about what he had heard and then the ‘argument’ with Marquez ensued. They settled that… and we also know that following that is when Eric Marsh made a cellphone call direct to OPS1 Todd Abel to ‘explain’ what had just happened with Marquez.
But even all of that ( including the cellphone call to Abel ) was over with by about 12:45 PM.
The next time DIVSA Eric Marsh really ‘surfaces’ in any radio transmissions is then the moment described in the SAIR when Marsh (supposedly) overheard SPGS1 Gary Cordes and BR Supt Brian Frisby deciding to now concentrate on that ‘Cutover Trail’ towards the Shrine area and try and ‘improve’ that small two-track as a ‘firebreak’.
The SAIR ( and the SAIT notes ) both say that Marsh jumped in and ‘agreed that was a good plan’ and this is now also the moment when Marsh asks Frisby to come all the way up to the high ridge again for another face-to-face meeting.
All of that happened right around 3:32 or 3:34 PM… just AFTER Byron Kimball’s fateful weather report over the TAC channels that the winds were going to switch 180 degrees and be backed by 30-40 MPH winds gusts.
So what was DIVSA Eric Marsh really doing, then, between 12:45 PM and 3:32 PM?
That’s 2 hours and 47 minutes.
That’s an awfully long time for there to be no real record WHERE a crucial ‘Division A’ supervisor was and WHAT he was actually DOING during a very critical time during the burn cycle.
If he really wasn’t participating with ‘Bravo 3’ in the building of that retardant line during the first part of that timeframe… then what WAS he actually ‘doing’ up there for those 2 hours and 47 minutes that day?
Perhaps Brendan McDonough still knows.
This is just another example of the lack of direction and plans by the Overhead team.
The IC and OPS should have been involved in this stupid decision to lay retardant line
spending a large amount of resource and funds that had no chance in hell of stopping the fire
when it started its run. The retardant would have been dried out and of no use by late afternoon. Another Cluster F*** example of a unorganized unsupervised Fire when Air Attack is making its own decisions with out direction from the IC.
Also you refer to marsh and what he was doing, He was doing his job DIVA was responsible for the hand line and anchor point he had 1 crew and not a whole lot else to his division.
Walk the line talk to crew complete assignment. He had no additional responsibility.
Get a anchor point and put the line across the black to hold the fire where it had burned to
and tie into the cat line and BR which was a seperiate DIV. To much line not enough man power the fire in DIVZ outran the line construction The line had no chance of being connected.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 2, 2014 at 8:04 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> This is just another example of the lack of direction and plans
>> by the Overhead team. The IC and OPS should have been
>> involved in this stupid decision to lay retardant line spending a
>> large amount of resource and funds that had no chance in hell
>> of stopping the fire when it started its run.
>>
>> The retardant would have been dried out and of no use by
>> late afternoon. Another Cluster F*** example of a unorganized
>> unsupervised Fire when Air Attack is making its own decisions
>> without direction from the IC.
At the end of their ADOSH interview… BOTH Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 ) admitted to the investigators that they KNEW it was basically an act of ‘desperation’.
They said…
“It’s not the place that you would, uh, naturally pick unless there’s – here’s our option. It’s like it’s GONNA go here. ( into Yarnell ). We might as well put some – we’ve got to put SOMETHING – we’ve got to DO SOMETHING. We’ve GOT to put SOMETHING in between, um, town and that fire.”
Even as early as 12:30 PM… they saw NOTHING happening on that south end of the fire that was going to even have a chance of stopping what they were now SURE ( even as early as 12:30 PM ) was going to happen. The fire was GOING to go into Yarnell THAT afternoon.
One Hotshot crew ( GM ) working on a USELESS exercise out on the ridge.
Another Hotshot crew ( BR ) doing absolutely nothing at all.
I guess you can’t blame them for at least TRYING to do SOMETHING.
ADOSH INTERVIEW WITH PAUL LENMARK AND RUSTY WARBIS
—————————————————————–
Q3=Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
A=Rusty Warbis
A1=Paul Lenmark
A2=Alex Viscusi ( Attorney for Warbis / Lenmark )
—————————————————————–
4245 Q3: I seen the indirect line ( of retardant ) and always wondered what was
4246 that thing about. I always wondered the first time I saw it, “What is that?”
4247 thing all about
4248
4249 A or A1: (Unintelligible). You know something, in a regular situation you would never
4250 go that indirect in that fuel pipe with retardant, right? I mean…
4251
4252 Q3: Yeah.
4253
4254 A or A1: …it’s not the place that you would, uh, naturally pick unless there’s – here’s our
4255 option. It’s like it’s gonna go here. ( into Yarnell ). We might as well put some – we’ve got to
4256 put something – we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to put something in
4257 between, um, town and that fire.
4258
4259 A or A1: Right.
———————————————————
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> Also you refer to marsh and what he was doing,
>> He was doing his job.
>> DIVA was responsible for the hand line and anchor point.
>> He had 1 crew and not a whole lot else to his division.
>> Walk the line. Talk to crew. Complete assignment.
>> He had no additional responsibility.
I think I’m going to disagree with you there.
It doesn’t matter how many ‘crews’ he had working for him that day.
He was a ‘Division Supervisor’ on the fire and he was ALSO responsible for the SAFETY of ALL crews under his command.
The MOMENT this ‘Division Supervisor’ became aware that the ‘plan’ cooked up FIVE hours earlier in the day ( at 7:00 AM ) just wasn’t going to work… I believe he had a RESPONSIBILITY to comprehend that and get those men the heck OUT of there.
Even as early as 12:30 PM… some very professional and experienced Air Support men took one look at what Granite Mountain was doing and they KNEW it was ‘pointless’ based on what the fire had already been doing all morning.
At NO time was that ‘plan’ they were actually working on expected to result in a west-to-east burnout operation until later that EVENING… after the day’s burn cycle and the winds died down enough for a safe ‘burnout’.
So the MOMENT it became obvious that was never going to happen… I believe he had a RESPONSIBILITY to shut down that worthless effort and get his ‘Division resources’ the heck out of there.
I can still see GMIHC Superintendent Jesse Steed just staying ‘nose to the ground’ on the assignment from the morning until told anything different… but his ‘Division A’ should have realized the pointlessness of GM’s efforts MUCH earlier that day and gotten them back to their rigs in time to evacuate along with everyone else.
Marsh wasn’t the only one who seemed to be fantasizing all afternoon that this ‘plan’ from 7:00 AM that morning was ever going to ever have a chance at coming together. SPGS1 Gary Cordes seemed to have spent the rest of the afternoon believing the same fantasy and was, himself, still asking BR Supt Brian Frisby about the chances of ‘burning that line’ even WHILE Frisby was already beginning to evacuate his own men, in the nick of time.
Ditto for OPS1 Todd Abel.
During those 2 hours and 47 minutes when we have no idea WHERE ‘Division A’ Eric Marsh was or WHAT he was actually even DOING… the Air Support was busy working on their own wortheless plan to stop the fire from coming into Yarnell THAT day… and you would think OPS1 would have ( somewhere in those nearly 3 hours ) had an ‘honest’ conversation with his own DIVSA on the SOUTH side of the fire about whether the plan from the morning even had a chance in hell.
It didn’t happen.
Even though ‘Air Attack’ already KNEW what was going to happen later… OPS1 Abel, DIVSA Marsh and SPGS1 Cordes just seemed oblivious for another THREE HOURS and kept pretending that 7:00 AM plan was no longer worthless.
Once again… I am calling this a MASSIVE DISCONNECT between Air and Ground support and one of the leading causes of the tragedy that happened later.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Get a anchor point and put the line across the black to
>> hold the fire where it had burned to and tie into the cat line
>> and BR which was a seperiate DIV. Too much line not enough
>> man power
There is no doubt that the minute IC Roy Hall and Field OPS1 Todd Abel learned that the Arroyo Hotshots were not going to make it to the fire… they should have reevaluated even the chance of that ‘plan’ coming together on the south side of the fire…
…but in a way… it wasn’t even about the ‘lack of manpower’.
When Bravo 3 evaluated the situation from the Air at 12:30 PM… the other Hotshot crew that WAS already there ( Blue Ridge ) was still doing absolutely NOTHING.
They weren’t even already ‘cleaning up’ the sections of line that the dozer had already pushed. They were all just sitting around twiddling their thumbs while their Supervisor and Captain went bombing around in their little 4-wheeler.
That’s what contributed to Bravo 3’s decision that SOMEBODY had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell… and that the crews they were seeing on the ground down there ( GM and BR ) should either ENGAGE in some useful way… or get the hell out of there… and this was still only 12:30 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The fire in DIVZ outran the line construction
Yep. Pretty much exactly the way ‘Air Attack’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) knew that it would as early as 12:30 PM that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The line had no chance of being connected.
Nope… and that should have been obvious very earl on.
We still don’t even know what Marsh and Frisby talked about during that first face-to-face meeting other than exchanging Gatorades and bitching about the piss-poor briefings and bad radio clones.
Did Marsh and Frisby even TALK about this whole ‘plan’, and whether it had a chance in hell of succeeding that day?
Did Marsh ( DIVSA ) already know ( circa NOON ) that the Arroyo Hotshots weren’t even going to ever show up that day to help with this massive line building?
Brendan McDonough knows what they really talked about.
He was standing right there and left that meeting with Frisby.
Division A was Marshes DIV. He had that responsibility OPS made the decisions to move or stay on assignment not Marsh. Chain of command is what it is.
Marsh was responsible for the safety of his people as you say but they were never in trouble till they moved. They had safe black no reason to move off of assignment. there line was next to cold black move up into it at any time and your safe. at no time were they in any threat on there assignment. They were basically on cold black line building a hand line for containment and control. No matter what the rest of the fire was doing that was GM and Marsh’s assignment.
Also I would not take the word of Air craft on what crews were doing I seriously doubt they were sitting all day doing nothing a fly over now and then dose not give an indication of what the BR crew was doing.
A crew working with a cat has its own unique problems clear and then wait as the cat works it is a stop and move thing so that could look like they were just sitting around at times.
Reply to Bob Powers post on October 2, 2014 at 6:25 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Division A was Marshes DIV.
>> He had that responsibility
>> OPS made the decisions to move or stay
>> on assignment not Marsh.
>> Chain of command is what it is.
Well.. apparently NOT on June 30, 2013.
OPS did make a decision ‘to move or stay’. It was ‘stay’.
We can hear that ourselves in the Caldwell video.
Marsh (eventually) ignored that uplevel ‘chain of command’ decision and decided to abandon his Division and go to town, anyway.
Unless, of course, there are a lot of conversations that took place AFTER he was told to ‘hunker and be safe’ that we simply don’t even know about yet.
If that really is Todd Abel asking Marsh if he could ‘hurry up’ and get to town a little faster in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video… then obviously there were more conversations between Abel and Marsh that we are totally unaware of…. such as the one where Abel himself changed his mind and then gave Marsh ‘permission’ to NOT ‘hunker and be safe’ like he had told him too and now wanted him to ‘get to town’.
If that is NOT Todd Abel telling Marsh to ‘hurry up’ in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video or, indeed, if those two snippets of como are actually not directly related… then Marsh was STILL ‘informing’ someone that he had decided to NOT ‘hunker and be safe’ as he was told to do and someone else on the fire WAS perfectly aware he was ‘abandoning his Division’ at 1627 PM.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Marsh was responsible for the safety of his people as
>> you say but they were never in trouble till they moved.
Exactly. Everything was fine… until all of sudden it WASN’T…
All I was saying above is that if the ultimate ‘goal’ for the risky move out of the black was simply to ‘get to town’… then it really should have happened earlier… and if it was anyone’s job out there to realize that ‘the plan’ just wasn’t going to come together that day and it was time to ‘reposition’ ‘Division A’ resources… it was DIVSA Marsh’s.
He seems to have hung on to the idea that that plan from 7:00 AM that morning was still a viable one for FAR too long that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> They had safe black no reason to move off of assignment.
Unless that assignment becomes POINTLESS… as it became long before they actually took that walk in unburned fuel.
‘Bravo 3’ thought whatever they were doing was POINTLESS as early as 12:30 PM that day. They were sticking to a 5 hour old plan that was obviously never going to ‘come together’ and even at 12:30 PM Air Attack thought they were just ‘staged’ out there waiting for someone to give them another assignment.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Their line was next to cold black move up into it at
>> any time and your safe. at no time were they in any
>> threat on there assignment. They were basically
>> on cold black line building a hand line for containment
>> and control. No matter what the rest of the fire was doing
>> that was GM and Marsh’s assignment.
They achieved neither ‘containment’ or ‘control’… and Air Attack could see they were NOT going to be able to do either from where they were as early as 12:30 PM that day. Plenty of time to ‘do something else’.
I guess what I was really, truly wondering is regardless of whether or not DIVSA Eric Marsh was out there practicing the military-style “Hold until relieved” assignment style… I really was just wondering WHAT he was ACTUALLY DOING for those 2 hours and 47 minutes that afternoon.
Yes… they seemed to still think the plan from the morning was viable or that the ‘tie up’ and the ‘burnout’ was still possible later that evening, or something…
…but even in that case… I wonder WHAT Marsh was actually DOING.
It’s already pretty well documented that the ONLY time Marsh was physically with the crew that day was when they first arrived up there after their hike and Marsh ‘re-briefed’ Jesse Steed… and then again from 11:55 AM to 12:25 PM when Marsh and Steed were meeting face to face with Frisby and Brown.
There is no evidence DIVSA Marsh was ‘hanging around’ where GM was working and ‘walking the line’ as you seem to have suggested.
The documentation just keeps saying he was ‘off scouting’ for most of the day.
Scouting WHAT? There’s no evidence any ‘scouting’ to the south took place until (perhaps) AFTER the decision to head SOUTH and Marsh *might* have been acting as ‘forward scout/lookout’ as they marched towards their deaths.
So if Marsh really was never with Steed and GM for ‘most of the day’… what was he really DOING for those mysterious 2 hours and 47 minutes when no one seems to be reporting any communications or conversations with him whatsoever?
Was he just calling Steed on the intra-crew every 15 minutes ( for almost 3 hours ) and just kept asking “Are you done yet?”.
Something tells me there MUST have been some other communications between OPS and one of their primary ‘Division Supervisors’ in that almost 3 hour timeframe that simply haven’t been reported yet.
If that isn’t the case… and OPS really was totally ignoring ‘Division A’ for almost 3 hours during the critical burn cycle and really didn’t give a shit WHERE he was or WHAT he was doing for those 3 hours… then that itself seems to be another ‘moment of FAIL’ that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Also I would not take the word of Air craft on what
>> crews were doing
I’m not ( taking their word for it ).
The fact that the Blue Ridge CREW itself had no real ‘assignment’ whatsoever all day up until that backup plan of improving the Cutover Trail came into play WAY late in the afternoon is already fully documented in the evidence record and fully confirmed by the unredacted portions of Blue Ridge’s own Unit Logs.
Until they played ‘musical vehicles’ and moved all their rigs from where they were told to go in the morning ( the Sesame clearing area ) over to the Shrine Youth camp… the CREW itself had ‘nothing to do’ and they were just ‘staged’ next to their Crew Carriers most of the day.
Even when they finally got ‘spread out’ on that Cutover Trail way late in the afternoon… they had only been ‘at work’ for a few minutes before it was time to hightail it back to the Youth Camp and evacuate.
BR Hotshot Ball got assigned to Justin Hernandez and the dozer that morning ( because the primary dozer that showed up had an operator with neither the proper qualifications OR even a radio with him ).
Frisby and Brown were, in fact, very active most of the day… but that was all just more ‘scouting’ and ‘bombing around’ Yarnell in their four-wheeler and ( sometimes ) their own Chse vehicle.
The Blue Ridge CREW itself did NOT really have anything to do all day long and even when someone finally put them to work out on that Cutover Trail… that only lasted a few minutes and they had to turn around and evacuate.
So what ‘Bravo 3’ SAW circa 12:30 PM and was REPORTING to ADOSH in their interview is accurate and well-documented.
They DID see ‘crew buggies’ out there in the flat… ( The Blue Ridge buggies ) but the crews themselves were NOT ENGAGING the fire or doing anything at all.
The whole time the Blue Ridge crew was ‘parked’ in the Sesame clearing area ( which is where they still were at 12:30 PM )… they were doing absolutely nothing but waiting for someone to give them something to DO.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> I seriously doubt they were sitting all day doing nothing
It’s TRUE.
The Blue Ridge CREW did basically nothing all day except ‘stage’ at up to FIVE different places ( Model Creek ICP, Yarnell Fire Station, Sesame clearing, then Shrine Road Youth Camp, then Ranch House Restaurant ).
The ONLY time they actually ‘tooled up’ and even tried to do anything useful was for those few minutes they were spread out on the Cutover Trail with the intention of just ‘improving the dozer push’. That ‘work’ only lasted a few minutes and it was time evacuate and go ‘stage’ at yet another place ( and still do nothing at all ) called the Ranch House Restaurant.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A fly over now and then dose not give an indication of
>> what the BR crew was doing.
Normally… probably not…. but in this case what ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 3 saw circa 12:30 was absolutely TRUE.
The BR crew was doing NOTHING but hanging around their Crew Carriers in the Sesame clearing.
From Bravo 3’s ADOSH testimony
——————————————-
1136 A or A1: Do you remember who you were talking to about that ‘cause right out in the
1137 middle of that flat, there was a dozer and a buggy.
1138
1139 A or A1: A couple buggies.
1140
1141 A or A1: A couple crew buggies. They were sitting out there and it was like. I
1142 remember it’s like going okay, are they gonna enga- I mean, they either need
1143 to…
1144
1145 Q: They need to get ‘em outta there.
1146
1147 A or A1: They need to do SOMETHING. They need to ENGAGE.
——————————————-
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> A crew working with a cat has its own unique problems
>> clear and then wait as the cat works it is a stop and
>> move thing so that could look like they were just
>> sitting around at times.
I’m sure all of that is true ( and even the photos from the Crossover trail show that when they finally got ‘spread out’ there to even begin doing something useful that day they WERE working close to the dozer )…
…but as far as the entire morning and much of the afternoon goes… the BR Crew weren’t even anywhere NEAR the dozer.
They were just standing around by their Crew Carriers waiting for someone to give them something to DO.
To me… this is still all about WHY two men in an airplane could arrive over Yarnell and as early as 12:30 PM they seemed to know TWO things…
1) The fire was going to go into Yarnell THAT day. Within hours.
2) No one on the SOUTH side of the fire seemed to be doing ANYTHING about protecting Yarnell… or at least nothing that was going to make any difference at all.
Yet then we have DIVSA Marsh, GM, Blue Ridge and Cordes still believing ( for the rest of the afternoon ) that a plan to finish a fire break and ‘burn it off’ later that evening was still ‘the work’ they should be doing.
It’s simply a MASSIVE DISCONNECT between what the Air Support knew and what the Ground Support did NOT seem to know.
First we were talking about Marsh’s responsibility and leaving the assignment at noon, Even when the Crew moved out of the black they were in no danger from the fire. There line and the construction of it was then not achievable.
WE agree What Marsh did later was on his own.
As for BR the reasons for what ever they were doing need to be referred to Frisby and Brown.
What’s bugging me most, as I’ve been rolling all of this around in my mind is:
WHY, when Bravo 3, acting as Air Attack, saw what they saw and determined what they determined, given the ENORMITY of that, did they just pass that on to one Division Supervisor (and not even the one Division Supervisor who MATTERED) and not POUND on the DOOR of COMMAND (either OPS 1 or OPS 2 or IC and/or FBAN or ALL of them) and make sure THEY knew and understood what Air Attack was seeing and determining and the enormity of that??????
Instead, THEY, in turn, chose to EQUALLY waste a whole lot of time and resources doing something THEY knew would, most likely, be equally INEFFECTIVE when that fire turned around and headed towards Yarnell (after the red paint dried but before the sun set), endangering not only Yarnell, but all the CREWS in its path???
I’m wracking my brain trying to recall a similar situation on another fire.
The closest I get is the Steep Corner Fire, when a Hotshot Crew turned down an assignment because they deemed it unsafe (not because they deemed it ineffective). They wrote down their “Violations of the 10 and 18” and presented that list to the IC, who promised to mitigate them. Then they left, and then reported it to SafeNet that very day.
The next day, a member of a Hotshot Crew who took on the (un-mitigated) assignment, was killed by a falling snag, exactly what the earlier crew saw and deemed “too unsafe to work here.”
When my dad was the Weather Wizard for the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta (which starts up tomorrow), and his analysis of the weather indicated unsafe flying conditions, he didn’t have the authority, and thus, the power to stop the launch. But he DID have the authority, and thus the power, and thus (in his mind) the RESPONSIBILITY to issue a VERY BIG WARNING about it to the people deciding the GO-NO-GO.
And, if they disregarded his warning, which they often did (because $$$$$$$$$$) he had the authority/power/responsibility to make a VERY BIG STINK about it. Which he DID, every time it happened……BEFORE (including to the pilots), DURING (including to the pilots), and AFTER (including to the pilots) he headed off the field to drink coffee, eat a burrito, chat with everybody, and OBSERVE the consequences, some of which were sometimes FATAL.
That was HIS JOB. He knew there were lives at stake.
Didn’t Bravo 3, Air Attack, after their observations indicated the work/lack-of-work going on in that south-west sector was seriously ineffective in regards to the fire that they predicted was going to turn around THAT AFTERNOON, and thus UNSAFE for the crews doing it…….
have a SIMILAR kind of authority, power, and thus RESPONSIBILITY to issue an EQUALLY BIG WARNING to the people with the authority, power, and thus RESPONSIBILITY to determine ” GO-NO-GO,” and, if they disregarded that, to EQUALLY warn the crews that were in harm’s way in the path of it?????
So, instead they issued ONE in-effective warning directed to ONE in-effective person, and then proceeded to join everybody else in the mythical plan to in-effectively pretend to be doing something about it???
Or am I missing something?
Addendum.
My dad was the AIBF Weather Wizard for 16 years. Because of the way he understood and did his job, he was highly trusted and beloved by all the pilots and crews.
Also, because of the way he understood and did his job, he was fired after his 16th year of doing it. They weren’t paying him anyway, but he definitely felt stabbed in the back, and so he made a VERY BIG STINK about that, too. So did the pilots and crews, who trusted him with their lives. It broke his heart deeply.
We never went back to the field of the Albuquerque International Balloon Fiesta.
Additional addendum.
The next year after my dad was fired, three people were killed in a balloon crash after inaccurate and, thus, in-effective, weather forecasting.
Marti… when the ADOSH / WFA investigators realized the significance of what this official Yarnell ‘Air Attack’ group was telling them with regards to what THEY knew and how EARLY they knew it that day… they did make attempts to determine WHO they passed this critical Intel on to.
Those parts of the interview remain rather disjointed and confusing.
Again… more FAIL going on.
They didn’t even seem to have the interviewing skills to pull from these men the clear answers to their own questions.
There IS a point where they SEEMED to be saying they passed on what they knew as early as 12:30 PM to ‘operations’ but nothing as specific as OPS1 or OPS2 or never any names. They never knew any names other than some note they had made to themselves after arriving about some guy named ‘Darrell’ was supposed to be their ‘primary contact’ on that north side of the fire.
The only actual PERSON the ADOSH / WFA investigators were able to nail down as at least one recipient of this critical 12:30 PM Intel was ‘Division Z’… and even in that case Warbis and Lenmark themselves had absolutely no idea his NAME was ‘Rance Marquez’.
What further complicates all this is that there doesn’t seem to be ANY mention of this critical Intel report from ‘Air Attack’ cica 12:30 PM in anyone else’s testimony… Todd Abel and Rance Marquez included.
Again… more FAIL at the investigation level.
If the interview with ‘Bravo 3’ came ‘late’ in the process and they only then learned about some of these crucial things AFTER previous interviews.. then they needed to call some of those other people BACK and do some followup questioning.
Apparently… that never happened.
That’s partly why I really wish they had supplied the audio.
You can’t tell who’s saying what.
There’s no indication of voice-tone and thus emotion. And thus significance, etc.
I have no reason to believe the interview is even transcribed accurately.
Reading is better than not reading, but listening is even better.
And thanks for pulling it up and drawing our attention to it. I hadn’t even downloaded it yet.
Reply to Marti Reed post on
October 3, 2014 at 2:16 pm
>> Marti said….
>>
>> That’s partly why I really wish they
>> had supplied the audio.
Me too.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You can’t tell who’s saying what.
Correct. It SEEMS to be mostly Rusty Warbis ‘speaking’ throughout the interview with Paul Lenmark just ‘chiming in’ every now and then to mostly just VERIFY thiings Warbis just said… but without the recording it’s hard to be 100 percent sure.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> There’s no indication of voice-tone and thus
>> emotion. And thus significance, etc.
There are also a LOT of ‘missing’ parts that are just labelled as “unintelligible” in the transcription.
Some of these “unintelligible” sections come at some pretty crucial times in the interview and right in the middle of some pretty crucial statements.
I really wish we had that recording.
Are these sections really all that “unintelligible”… or was someone simply not trying hard enough?
You said:
“Those parts of the interview remain rather disjointed and confusing.
Again… more FAIL going on.
They didn’t even seem to have the interviewing skills to pull from these men the clear answers to their own questions.”
That really reminds me of the sense I got from their interviews with Shumate regarding the humongous FAIL regarding ordering the Type 2 Short Incident Management Team.
They wandered around and around about this, but just didn’t seem to be able to nail it. They sensed there was something wrong here, but couldn’t quite articulate it.
Fortunately the group of retired wildland firefighters who wrote their ADOSH report totally DID understand what the problem with that was, and extensively documented it.
Their report, I think, became the basis for ADOSH’s harsh charges against Arizona Department of Forestry.
The lawsuits are going to be, accurately, IMHO, focused on Arizona Department of Forestry’s HUGE failings in this entire arena.
But I’m guessing they didn’t have time to carefully look at THIS part of the whole fatal fiasco.
But, as Bob Powers has written below regarding how “most IC’s rely on the eyes in the sky” (i.e. Air Attack), and how:
“That’s why after IA a team comes in with a plan and implements or changes it each shift so you have a day shift plan and a night shift plan so every one is on the same page.
Covers Map. Zones’ Divisions, Strike Teams Who is in charge of what,”
I still believe Bravo 3 had the authority, power, and responsibility, when they realized, around 12:15 PM, the fire was going to turn itself around and head towards Yarnell THAT AFTERNOON (endangering both the town and the CREWS), even though they had received that fire without adequate briefing from Rory Collins or the IMT as to who was IN CHARGE of it (as Bob wrote, in my above quote. should have been done), to have, done ALL within their power to NOTIFY and seriously WARN both Incident Command and the Crews in danger as to the SEVERITY of the situation that they were OBSERVING.
Instead, they chose to acquiesce in the costly mythological strategy of attempting to do something that would turn out to be (for their own foreseeable reasons) as equally in-effective as everything else that was being done in that area that day.
Really, how much time would it have taken them to actually FIND OUT who the Incident Commander was, who the OPS were, who the FBAN was, and get on the radio and WARN THEM about what they had determined by 12:15 PM??? Five or ten minutes?
Instead they spent how much time putting in a retardant line that both they and the retired firefighters who wrote the ADOSH report judged was most likely to have been in-effective in protecting either Yarnell or the firefighters whose lives were in danger.
I’m really having a hard time (after finally figuring out how to fix my kitchen window) conjuring up a more completely. totally FAILED, on a bazillion levels, including two investigations of it, response to and attack of a wildland fire than the one we are looking at–the Yarnell Hill Fire…
Which, IMHO, all things considered, doesn’t absolve the leadership of the Granite Mountain Hotshots of their responsibility for their still inexplicable decision to head down into a bowl filled with explosive fuel as that fire was turning around and heading right exactly into it.
I’m just narrating how the entire stage was set to, most likely, enable a WHOLE BUNCH of seriously dangerous things to happen.
I do not understand the lack of communications between Air Attack and the IC.
Unless it was just a lack of respect by one or the other
The IC is suppose to be in control of the fire and making the decisions.
Air Attack should be in contact with the IC at all times
if they note a serious change in the fire activity then they need to be keeping the IC up to date on their analyses of what is going to happen that is the way it usually works.
Again the lack of leadership by the IC keeps jumping out at me on this Fire. The OPS seemed to fall into the same trap were they really that highly qualified?
GM and many others made there own decisions because no one else was truly making any direct supervisory decisions for them.
This in turn caused the steam rolling effect of many people having near misses in burn overs that ended with 19 dead fire fighters.
Strong people need to lead a Fire Team.
and we are back to the military thing again Chain of command and the ability to lead direct and make decisions on the run. The buck stops here.
You are right on,,,,,,,,,
Also most IC’s rely on the eyes in the sky why were there not more discussions on what AA saw?????
I appreciate your response.
I wasn’t sure if I was expecting them to do something unusual or “out of bounds.”
The lack of accurate briefing of in-coming overhead as to who the relevant IMT overhead is really mystifies me.
I’m hoping THAT’s not SOP either.
Lack of a written plan had a lot to do with the dysfunction. The Briefing probably missed a lot a written copy of the shift plan covers all.
That’s why after IA a team comes in with a plan and implements or changes it each shift so you have a day shift plan and a night shift plan so every one is on the same page.
Covers Map. Zones’ Divisions, Strike Teams Who is in charge of what,
The IC, and all overhead under him or her for each shift. List of all crews equipment air craft tractors names and assignments broke down by divisions.
This is a twice a day plan with weather forecast included.
Didn’t happen on Yarnell————-
**
** AIR ATTACK RORY COLLINS REPORTED THE FIRE WAS
** ‘SWITCHING’ AND WAS NOW BURNING BOTH NORTH AND EAST
** AS EARLY AS 11:01 AM ON JUNE 30, 2013
This is a Followup to the message below that reprints the exact testimony of ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) about HOW and WHY they knew, even as early as 12:30 PM, that the fire was already ‘switching’ and it was GOING to be headed towards Yarnell THAT afternoon… during THAT day’s burn cycle… and that they better try and DO something about it even as early as 12:30 PM.
Even a full HOUR before ‘Bravo 3′ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived on the Yarnell Hill Fire to relieve Air Attack Rory Collins so he could go refuel… Air Attack Rory Collins himself informed Dispatch that the Yarnell fire was already ‘swtiching’ and was now moving both NORTH and EAST at the same time.
‘Bravo 3′ arrived around NOON and saw the same thing right away… and that is why the moment after they did those initial retardant drops to help support Darrell Willis ( at his direction ) at the Double-Bar-A-Ranch they looked over the entire situation from the air and realized that the fire was GOING to be heading into Yarnell THAT afternoon ( not tomorrow, like some people were still thinking around NOON that day ).
As they sized up the situation ( from the air ) on that SOUTH end of the fire, towards Yarnell, all they saw was a Hotshot crew out on a western ridge ( Granite Mountain ) that was ( in their words ) “Already out of play” and they just assumed GM was simply ‘staged’ out there and waiting for some other assignment… and another Hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting around by their Crew Carriers doing absolutely nothing ( circa 12:15 PM ).
In their own words… they said no one ‘down there’ on the south end of the fire seemed to be ENGAGING and they needed to either do that or get both themselves AND their ‘rigs’ out of there.
So that’s when THEY ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided that since THEY were now ‘Air Attack’. for this critical time at even just the start of the afternoon burn cycle… THEY better try and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell.
That is when they decided ( on their own ) to start laying that long retardant line from west to east across the valley. This is the one seen in Parker and MacKenzie photos stretching across the ‘valley’.
Even they admitted to ADOSH that it was, in fact, highly unusual to just start laying a line of retardant like that down the middle of ( quote ) “a fuel pipe”… but that’s how strongly they felt even circa 12:30 PM that no one was doing ANYTHING on that south end to try and protect Yarnell and someone had to do SOMETHING.
Here is the proof ( from the Dispatch logs themselves ) that even AA Rory Collins knew at 11:01 AM that the fire was now burning BOTH North AND East at the same time…
From the “I-Dispatch Records” PDF file in the SAIR FOIA/FOIL release…
PDF page 39 ( of 97 pages )…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 11:01.58 AM
From: AA ( Air Attack Rory Collins )
To: ALH
Message: FIRE IS APPROX 500 AC AND MOVING TO THE NORTH
AND EAST AT THIS TIME.
A direct link to this ‘I-Dispatch Records” document is below…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAReNxWTP2ditFy7LMT31Spa/Dispatch%20Records/I-Dispatch%20Records.pdf?dl=0
Thanks to WTKTT and Bob Powers for all you’ve been writing here. Which I will probably comment on.
I’ve spent the past three days looking after my mom, who is in a skilled nursing facility, while trying to figure out how to navigate the week-and-a-half-old deconstruction/reconstruction zone which is my driveway. and then fleeing back to my office, shutting the doors to buffer the noise of it all, and watching Helitack Crew Videos on YouTube, trying to gain an understanding of how these crews and their helicopters/pilots interact and work together.
And reading what WTKTT wrote from the dispatch orders for Price Valley Helitack and 5KA. And thank you for that.
Not to mention what you wrote (YIKES!!) about what Brave 3 said about figuring out by 12:15 PM that the Yarnell Fire was surely going to turn and head to Yarnell and that, therefore, the focus needed to be about EVACUATING YARNELL. Wasn’t there a Fire Behavior Analyst on this fire? Was he not listening on Air to Ground to what they were saying? I would have LOVED to have HEARD that interview, but, alas, ADOSH didn’t provide the audio of it.
So, anyway, back to Price Valley Rappell Helitack, the gold standard of Fire Fighting Crews (since they are, essentially, Hotshots with Helicopters.)
The more I”m thinking about it, after watching muchos videos, the more I think it didn’t matter that the crew buggy broke down and was delayed. I’m thinking the fire-fighters in that crew buggy were peripheral to what was happening.
For a couple of reasons.
These teams travel with, not only a crew buggy, but also a “chase truck,” usually pulling a trailer that has a lot of equipment in it. Price Valley had one of those. I just did a quick look at the photos I have of 5KA on the helibase. I haven’t seen that chase truck, but that doesn’t mean it wasn’t there or somewhere nearby. Those are the folks who would have attached/unattached the bambi bucket, kept an eye on maintenance issues. and done stuff like that. They don’t leave stuff like that to just whoever happens to be hanging around the Helibase.
The other thing I’ve seen is that, usually the Team Supervisor/Helicopter Manager flies up in front with the pilot in the helicopter. The helicopter, and its pilot, is not, actually, “in charge” of what happens. The helicopter Manager is. The helicopter is a “tool” of the Crew, not the other way around. The Crew (via the Manager/Supervisor) is in charge of, and responsible for, the strategies/tactics of the helicopter. This is a pretty tight thing here, and they have to carefully balance their skills and knowledge as they do this.
And, not only is the helicopter/pilot not actually “in charge” of the helicopter (strategically speaking), but neither is the Incident Commander, OPS, Air Attack, or the Lead Pilot. It’s like how Jesse Steed, as acting Granite Mountain Supervisor was “in charge” of Granite Mountain, no matter what anybody else “said.” (Including, at that point, Eric Marsh).
The Team Supervisor/Helicopter Manager (in this case Todd Pederson) was the overall Supervisor of the helicopter. The pilot was working for him. What finally snapped into focus tonight was that it would make sense that Todd Pederson could have very likely been flying inside 5KA, alongside its pilot, as “they” were “protecting structures” in the Model Creek Road area.
He never said he was doing that “on the ground.”
That could also explain why the major players on the ground never mentioned that crew or him in their narratives.
The rest of the crew may never have even been there. And Todd Pederson would also not have been visible to those major players who were there, either.
I’ve been really wracking my brain to make sense of this, and I think this finally makes sense.
And, in my mind, the agonizing irony of it all is that Price Valley Heli-Rappell Helitack and 5KA could, IMHO, have put out the Yarnell Hill Fire on Saturday in a blink of an eye, relatively speaking.
If it had only been a FS fire. The State used there resources in IA.
Yep. The State Incident Command structure. apparently, way belatedly, just happened to order up a federal resource, that just happened to have been positioned nearby. that could have, most likely, figured out how to nail this fire before it got out of control, way before the State Incident Command structure lost control of it.
There has got to be some kind of Lessons Learned to be learned here. But I have no reason to believe, all things considered, that will happen.
Video: “Helicopter – Iron 44 Dedication Part 1”
Includes footage of the body of USFS Pilot Inspector Jim Ramage being loaded onto N215KA by fire-fighters, probably including Price Valley Helitack.
2008 (the first year of the 5-year contract which ended last year–they have a different helicopter this year).
http://youtu.be/_cXUvlw2_aU
Marti another great summation of how a Helicopter works.
You are right on almost every thing.
A couple of points—-
The Pilot has final say on if the Helicopter can do a mission based on Safety and ability.
The Manager or other crew do not ride with the Pilot when he is doing Sling loads or water drops. do to Load weights.
For Them to be doing Water drops there Chase truck would have had to be at the Fire as it carries all the equipment. The crew carrier caries the rest of the crew in this case all the rappellers like as you said a Hot Shot crew type just less than 20 Crewmen.
Two quick points about ‘drop chops’ and ‘chase trucks’ at Yarnell…
When DPS Ranger 58 Helicopter was ‘ordered up’ for Yarnell on Sunday morning… someone told them they would be needed for recon flights but that same someone ALSO told them they *might* be needed for water drops.
So DPS Ranger 58 came to Yarnell fully ready to do ‘bucket drops’ with a bambi bucket loaded into the back of the helicopter itself.
Ranger 58 had a ‘fuel truck’ which was being driven to Yarnell… but the bambi bucket was simply stuffed into the back of the chopper.
When Ranger 58 arrived in Yarnell around 9:30 AM… Field OPS1 Todd Abel and Planning OPS2 Paul Musser has just finished with the big 9:00 AM briefing at the Model Creek School ICP and they wanted to go up for a ‘look around’.
Ranger 58 depositions then say they quickly unloaded the ‘bambi bucket’ from the back of the helicopter to get ready for the ‘recon’ flight.
Ranger 58 was never used for any bucket drops that day.
It was ONLY used for 2 recon flights… and then the search mission following the deployment.
I guess my point here is that even though it seems to be normal for a bambi bucket to be onboard a ‘chase truck’… it IS possible for a chopper to just carry that onboard, correct?
Ranger 58 did.
There is also plenty of footage taken by both the News 20 media chopper ( piloted by Sam Farris ) and the ABC 15 ‘Air 15’ chopper that shows Helicopter 5KA actually dipping water from the Horseshoe dip.
There are no ‘ground personnel’ seen at all.
So I suppose it’s possible that even Helicopter 5KA had its bambi bucket onboard when it arrived in Yarnell and the pilot of 5KA really was doing the drop work by himself that day.
We KNOW that at least Todd Pedersen was there by the time the deployment traffic hit the radio… because he was the first firefighter to even admit to the media ( on July 4 ) that there WAS, in fact, radio traffic from Granite Mountain right before the deployment.
Maybe only the pilot of 5KA and Pedersen ‘arrived’ in Yarnell that morning, with the bambi bucket stuffed in the back like Ranger 58.
Good research the Helicopters travel like that so right on.. Depends on dip location if they need a ground person..
I understand what Bob Powers is saying, that Todd wouldn’t have been IN 5KA, as it’s doing bucket drops, because of weight considerations. Although his weight might not be all that significant, all things considered. But I’ll defer to Bob’s experience here.
And we don’t have any visual evidence of any support crew at the helibase or the Horseshoe Dip.
And we still have Todd saying “we” were doing structure protection in the Model Creek area.
So here’s another possible scenario.
I can’t imagine a helicopter from Idaho flying down to Yarnell from Prescott to spend a day fighting a fire without its critical support team, i.e the chase truck with the trailer and at least one or two people who are involved in its maintenance. That would be, IMHO, beyond seriously dangerous.
5KA had to refuel at Wickenburg. So maybe that’s where the chase truck/trailer/maintenance personnel were staged?
Todd Pederson, its Manager and the Helitack Crew Supervisor, and maybe one other person (or maybe not, but it just seems reasonable to me, for support reasons) fly with the helicopter to the helibase, on Hays Ranch Road, in order to support it more immediately there, including managing the bambi bucket (which, yes, normally is carried on the helicopter) and what ever else might be needed (hello risk management) to be managed there.
I do think 5KA doesn’t need anybody else from the crew to be present at the Horseshoe Dip.
So, according to this scenario, the general maintenance crew and equipment are staged at Wickenburg, the more immediate crew (including Todd Pederson) are staged at the helibase on Hays Ranch Road. 5KA is flying water drops with just the pilot on board (who is following the instructions of B33 lead pilot, who he has a long-standing trusted relationship with). And thus Todd says “we were engaged in structure protection on Model Creek Road” (I’m paraphrasing), and thus none of the actors on the ground in that area acknowledge that larger crew in their interviews.
Todd Pederson is likely communicating with the 5KA pilot via a FS channel (as I’m remembering Bob saying downstream) which, most likely other essential members of that team are also likely privy to, while also listening to Air to Ground and, I would guess, Air to Air.
So does this scenario make sense?
Marti I think some where it was stated that the Helicopter and crew had been on the earlier fire cant remember the name off hand.in Arizona.
They were staged at a FS camp somewhere and ordered to the Yarnell Fire.
Maybe only as a water dropper only with out the crew and other equipment. At least the Foreman Todd Pederson and possibly another crewman would have gone with the helicopter. Required under FS contracts to manage the Helicopter and flight time reports.
You are right on with the rest————-
Also a comment on Payette Helicopter—
They were the First Rappel Helicopter in Idaho and R4 A class operation for a number of years.
They have a highly qualified supervisory organization with a lot of experience some came out of the Smoke Jumpers many Highly qualified fire fighters type II qualified overhead. The pilot sounds like he has been around fire quite a while as well. And may have known the B33 pilot from being close neighbors with Oregon R6. Just my thoughts.
Hay WTKTT over on Elizabeth’s Blog in the new rant checkout the 1 reply which I believe is her as well
she is saying with Question marks she thinks you are a Fred Somebody. Also attacked me but I am use to that from her. She Has to vet you in order to join her blog probably why she has no takers.
Reply to Marti Reed post on September 28, 2014 at 11:55 pm
Marti… I moved this ‘response’ up here to to a new parent comment since it requires reprinting some of the ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) ADOSH interview transcript and those ‘numbered’ interview lines need all the horizontal column space they can get so they format correctly.
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Thanks for your response, WTKTT!
>> There is just so much FAIL in all of this.
Yes. It really is an absolute miracle that all three towns ( Peeples Valley, Yarnell, and Glen Ilah ) didn’t literally ‘disappear from the face of the earth’ that weekend and it’s also a miracle that they weren’t hauling bodies out of that part of Arizona for a week.
I still think the TOTAL FAIL began the day before, on Saturday, June 29, 2013, on IC Russ Shumate’s watch.
Yes… more COULD have been done on the Friday night after the fire was even first ‘spotted’… but the truth ( with photos to back it up ) is that the ‘Yarnell Hill Fire’ was practically nothing at all even come Saturday morning and there were MORE than NINE hours of daylight preceding the infamous ‘spot over’ to make sure it was dead-as-a-door-nail.
Even the Lewis DOC crew had a good FIVE hours to just ‘mop-up’ a simple 2 acre non-active fire up there on that ridge and not let there even be a possibility of it ‘jumping that road’ later that afternoon.
It didn’t happen… and then all the additional FAIL on Sunday ( which should have never even been necessary ) went on to become just part of history.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that the fire was going to
>> TURN AROUND and head to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) told investigators EXACTLY why they arrived at that conclusion even before they had finished their first ‘turn around the fire’ that day circa 12:15 PM.
This requires some posting from their interview so I’m going to put those at the bottom of this Reply.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I’ve been picking my way back in time to learn some things about the
>> history of Price Valley Heli-Rappell and 5KA. It’s a fairly significant
>> (in a positive way) history.
>>
>> (snip)
>>
>> I”ve been reading about this crew and this helicopter.
>> So. I guess what I’m saying here is that I’ve been seeing that this is
>> a crew and a helicopter that has some serious creds.
Yes. Highly accomplished. Highly professional.
You can hear that just from listening to the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel traffic.
The pilot of 5KA also had a wonderful working relationship that day with Thomas French in ‘Bravo 33’. They obviously got along well and had a LOT of respect for each other. That is why 5KA didn’t hesitate to try and jump into the MAYDAY traffic when even he wasn’t hearing either French or Burfiend respond to either GM’s calls for help OR to OPS1 Todd Abel’s calls to them about the MAYDAY traffic. He must have simply thought the only reason they wouldn’t be responding to such important radio traffic is that they weren’t hearing those people calling them on the Air-To-Ground channel… so that’s why he tried to give them that ‘people are calling you’ heads-up over the Air-To-Air channel.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> You, back in Chapter VII, kind of knocked Pederson because of
>> his appearance. I think we need to take his attempts to communicate
>> what he said VERY seriously.
If you are talking about this comment I made about the MSM article featuring a VIDEO that shows Pederson…
—————————–
The very first MSM clip the list has Pederson being interviewed… but he is ALSO ‘featured’ in the video clip that accompanies the article. He’s a tall guy with a beard that is so close-cropped it looks fake. He is seen in the video (apparently) helping some others ‘attend’ to the same ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ helicopter also seen lifting a bucket in the video. The report says that Todd Pederson was ‘one of the first responders’ and had ‘been on the fire since Friday’… but that can’t be correct. Pederson’s clothes aren’t dirty in any way so it doesn’t look like he’d ever been doing any ‘line work’.
———————————-
…I wasn’t ‘knocking’ his appearance at all. I was just ‘describing’ it.
His beard DOES look almost ‘fake’ ( it’s so perfect ) and he also did NOT look like someone who had been ‘on the line’ since Friday, as the article suggests, unless he had just changed into a brand new set of clothes before the VIDEO was shot.
I DO take what he has to say VERY seriously.
I wish SOMEONE ( anyone? ) had even bothered to officially ‘interview’ him.
He is now on record as being the FIRST firefighter to even admit ( on July 4 ) that there WAS any actual ‘deployment radio traffic’… yet (apparently) no one even bothered to interview him.
Even when the media people witnessed that STFU moment and they then tried to ask the ‘official’ who had obviously just told Pedersen to ‘Shut Up’ what he was referring to… that official was not ready to admit that there was ANY ‘radio traffic’ at all or that anyone ‘heard’ anything.
All that official said to the media at that time was… “Even if there had been radio traffic around the time of deployment there would have been no time to mount a rescue effort”.
Total CYA mode. Even as early as July 4, 2013.
If you read the MSM articles that talk about what Pedersen DID say before some fire official stepped in and told him to basically ‘Shut The Fuck Up’ about what radio transmissions he heard… then it is Pedersen himself who SEEMS to also have been saying that he first heard MAYDAY calls over a TAC channel… with someone ( Marsh? Steed? ) trying to contact his ‘Supervisor’ ( and not Air Attack, initially ).
This would still be a ‘match’ for what those Blue Ridge Unit Logs say… that a MAYDAY call went out FIRST on the TAC channel ( as in… a call to ‘Operations’ ) and only when it went unanswered for some amount of do we then hear Jesse Steed and Robert Caldwell desperately trying to get ‘Air Attack’ to respond to them.
Someone still needs to interview this Pedersen guy ( and all the OTHER 10 Helitack crew who were supposedly there and listening to the radio as well )… and they all need to tell the TRUTH about what they heard that day.
The pilot of 5KA too, of course.
He has ALWAYS been crucially involved in the ‘deployment traffic’ but has (apparently)
never even been interviewed by anyone… even though Mike Dudley got up in front of all those Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014, and told them the SAIT’s absolute priority was to talk to the ‘Air People’ because they ‘heard things’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> I have NO IDEA how/why they were dispatched to this fire, except possibly
>> that they seem to have already been working on the Doce Fire.
Calls went out for ‘Choppers’ as part of Russ Shumate’s desperate attempt to ‘ramp up’ the Yarnell Hill Fire on Saturday night WITHOUT even filing an official report that the fire had ‘Escaped Initial Attack’.
That is still one of the (indirect) causes of the tragedies on Sunday.
People were showing up even on Sunday morning that still believed they were in ‘Initial Attack’ mode when the truth is that Russ Shumate’s IA had TOTALLY FAILED the day before… but the Yarnell Fire was never declared ( not even late Saturday night ) to have been a fire that had ‘Escaped Initial Attack’.
Regarding 5KA… there have always been these entries in the PUBLIC ‘I-Dispatch-Records’ document…
At 7:57 PM on Saturday night… an entry appears about Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’…
06/29/2013 1957 KO 5KA went to a Santa Fe Order, No order received at SWCC. Waiting on order, Crew buggy broke down at way back to Taos, tow truck needed. S# needed. that will be on the Aragon fire.
67 minutes later, at 9:04 PM… there are these entries…
06/29/2013 2104 KO 5KA will fill Yarnell Hill fire.
06/29/2013 2105 FB Yarnell Fire is estimated at 100 acres.
Then there is this entry for Sunday, June 30, 2013…
WildCAD
Arizona Dispatch Center
Timer Report Resource, Date: 6/30/2013
Incident: A1S-2013
6/30/2013 12:39:56 PM ALH OK: IN CONTACT WITH 5KA AT THIS TIME
SIDENOTE: This is also the ‘Dispatch Log’ that explains why the Blue Ridge Mountain Hotshots got to Yarnell LATE… missed all the briefings, and so ( consequently ) had no idea where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ was or what Marsh meant later in the day when he talked about ‘making our way to the Ranch’. This Log says that Dispatch was told at 8:52 PM on Saturday night that Blue Ridge was in 15 minutes ( as in, for Yarnell at 9:07 PM ), would ‘RON’ ( Rest OverNight ) in Camp Verde, and that Blue Ridge would be in Yarnell, ready for work, at 6:00 AM Sunday.
It didn’t happen. ( Not as Dispatch thought it would, anyway ).
The Blue Ridge Unit Logs do verify that they spent the night in Camp Verde… but they got of there way late in order to make their 6:00 AM ETA in Yarnell and that’s why they were LATE and missed all the Sunday morning briefings.
From the Log…
06/29/2013 2052 LG notification from Rob at FDC, Blue Ridge crew leaving in 15 minutes, RON in Camp Verde, arrive at Yarnell Hill incident tomorrow 6/30 at 0600.
From the very first line of Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s Unit Log…
0630 – Blue Ridge IHC departs Comfort Inn Camp Verde, AZ.
So Blue Ridge was SUPPOSED to be in Yarnell at 6:00 AM on Sunday, ready to be briefed and go to work, but they didn’t even leave the ‘Comfort Inn’ where they spent the night in Camp Verde until 6:30 AM.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> All things considered, I have a hard time believing 5KA’s helitack
>> crew (and especially Todd Pederson, the Helicopter Manager and
>> thus Crew Supervisor) didn’t have some kind of serious hand in
>> coordinating what that helicopter was doing during that afternoon.
>> That’s how this stuff is managed.
See the ‘Dispatch Log’ entries above.
There is a confusing entry in there at 7:57 PM on Saturday night about the 5KA ‘Crew Buggy’ having ‘broken down’ on its way to Taos and needing a ‘tow’.
Maybe Todd Pederson ( and the rest of the 5KA support crew? ) didn’t even get to Yarnell until shortly before the deployment because their ‘Buggy’ had to get fixed that morning?
There are still ELEVEN guys associated with this Helitack crew listed in the ‘Resource Orders’ as having been in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013… but we still have no idea WHEN any of them got there, or what they were really doing that day even if they WERE there.
If ANY of these ELEVEN guys were ever actually interviewed by anyone… we have yet to find out about it ( or what they might have testifed to ).
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> A 5-year contracted helicopter and the agency/crew that is
>> contracting it (and has been for five years) have a SIGNIFICANT
>> relationship with each other.
>>
>> If 5KA is reporting a “late” call by Eric Marsh; and it’s Manager is
>> reporting communiques from him and then being “gagged” by the
>> USFS (as was, apparently, the Zion Helitack Supervisor regarding
>> the Iron Fire crash), there is YES a serious problem.
Agree totally.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that the fire was going to
>> TURN AROUND and head to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
Okay… returning to your FIRST question here at the bottom of this ‘Reply’.
** THE SHORT STORY
When ‘Bravo 3’ arrived in Yarnell circa NOON… they found Air Attack Rory Collins had already left the area to refuel and a VLAT was now ‘orbiting’ and waiting for them.
They were immediately told ( By someone. Todd Abel? ) that their ‘primary ground contact’ was a Structure Protection guy named ‘Darrell’.
Darrell Willis then directed them to help try and protect the Double-Bar-A Ranch with retardant drops. Willis had identified a series of two-tracks that kind of ‘surrounded’ the Double-Bar-A-Ranch and that was the ‘perimeter’ he had the DOC crews clearing out in the hopes it might protect the ranch. Willis told ‘Bravo 3’ to ‘support’ that effort and drop retardant around those two-tracks..
‘Bravo 3’ used the VLAT for that… and (supposedly) two other SEATS as well.
Those ‘drops’ that then took place right around the Double-Bar-A-Ranch are still visible a few hours later in the aerial footage taken by ABC 15 News Chopper ‘Air 15’ as it showed the Double Bar-A-Ranch completely engulfed in flames from almost directly above ( at their assigned Media Chopper operating altitude of 9,000 feet ).
As soon as ‘Bravo 3’ finished those drops requested by Darrell Willis… they took their first ‘turn around the whole fire’ circa 12:15 or 12:30 PM.
It was probably more like 12:15 PM because during this ‘turn around the fire’ is when they first talked to ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez… and it was PRIOR to the arguement he would then behaving circa 12:20 PM with DIVSA Eric Marsh.
It was DURING their very first ‘turn around the fire’ circa 12:15 PM that they said it was already perfectly obvious what was going to happen later in the day.
They said it was because of the ‘aggressive fire behavior’ they were already observing on the ground, the fuel loads involved, the extreme fire conditions, and the fact that the fire had ALREADY split into TWO HEADS and MULTIPLE FINGERS, and some of them were already heading aggressively EAST even that early in the day.
They realized there was no way it was going to just keep ‘buring downhill’ like it had been in the morning and that the fuel loads, conditions, and the fact that the worst part of that day’s burn cycle was even yet to come were all going to combine into a threat to Yarnell THAT afternoon.
Even as early as 12:15 PM… their official recommendation was that Yarnell start evacuating. They told this to ‘Division Z’, Rance Marquez… who then disappeared ( from the radio, anyway ) for the rest of the afternoon and (apparently) didn’t pass ANY of this ‘situation report’ from ‘Bravo 3’ on to anyone else that day.
Just one more tragic ‘missed opportunity’ in Yarnell, Arizona, on June 30, 2013.
If the opinions of these experienced Air Support men circa 12:15 PM had reached the right people AND been taken with the seriousness they deserved… a LOT of things might have been different that day.
There might be a lot less fatherless children today and people who had to get out of harms way might have been able to save a LOT more of their irreplaceable possessions.
This wasn’t the ONLY ‘MASSIVE DISCONNECT’ between Air Support and Ground Forces that day… but it was probably the most serious one.
** THE LONG STORY
ADOSH INTERVIEW WITH ‘BRAVO 3’
PAUL LENMARK AND RUSTY WARBIS
Interviewer: Brett Steurer
9-24-13/9:00 am – ( NOTE: 4 days before the AZ Forestry SAIR report was released )
Q=Barry Hicks
Q1=Marshall Krotenberg
Q2= Bruce Hanna
Q3=Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace )
Q4= Brett Steurer
A=Rusty Warbis
A1=Paul Lenmark
A2=Alex Viscusi
Early on the interview, when the ADOSH investigators were focusing on what they did, and saw, and thought right after ARRIVING on the fire about NOON or 12:15 PM… they talked about their initial impressions of the fire itself and what they THOUGHT it was GOING to do.
This section comes RIGHT after ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks had just verified with them that their initial ‘Ground Contact’ upon arriving was SPGS2 Darrell Willis.
————————————————————————–
526 Q: Right. And who were you talking to on the ground at that point in time? Do
527 you remember, ah, – and the ground contact was?
528
529 A or A1: Our primary contact was stricture – structure group 2, ah, by Engine 58 that
530 we were talking with as well, but our primary, ah – ah, contact was structure
531 group 2.
532
533 Q: Did you know who that was or…
534
535 A or A1: I have, ah, just a note written – it’s Darrell…
536
537 Q: Darrell Willis?
538
539 A or A1: I don’t know his last name. I have…
540
541 If it was structure group 2. It’d be Darrell
542 Willis. Ah, and, ah, so, ah, could you describe, ah – ah, the fire behavior at
543 that point in time and, ah, and I think I can pin the times down because I’ve
544 got, ah, I’ve got the AFF flight stuff, and so I think I can pin that down fairly
545 closely, but if you could describe the fire behavior you all were seeing at that
546 point in time, that would be good, I think.
547
548 A or A1: Um, the fire behavior – it was, ah, for earlier in the day, it was pretty
549 substantial. Um, that fire was burning, ah, downhill to the north from that
550 upper rim, point of origin, ah, pushing downhill, um, which would be unusual
551 and, ah, it was advancing, um, it was advancing along pretty good. It was, ah,
552 it was chomping right along.
————————————————————————
So their ‘initial’ impression on arriving ( as early as NOON or 12:15 PM ) was that this was a VERY aggressive fire already burning FAST downhill ( to an unusual degree ) even BEFORE the peak of the afternoon burn cycle.
Barry Hicks then interrupts them for a moment and verifies their credentials as fully qualified ( and experienced ) ATGS with the proper DIVS certifications and appropriate ‘ground experience’ as well.
Then Barry Hicks wants to know, when they first arrived and were talking to SPGS2 Darrell Willis, if they got the impression he/they ‘had their act together’ and/or ‘knew what they were doing’.
In a nutshell… Warbis and Lenmark basically said NO.
They said that based on the very aggressive ( and unusual ) fire behavior they were already seeing upon arrival and the fact that it was still so early in the burn cycle… that Willis and the men at the Double Bar A Ranch seemed too ‘focused’ on what they were doing and not fully aware of what was already happening around them.
They were already WORRIED that they might be getting ‘trapped’… and said so.
It is also during this report to the ADOSH investigators of how concerned they were about Willis and his men getting ‘trapped’ that we hear Warbis and Lenmark first mention how ( and WHY ) they KNEW the fire was (inevitably) going to be ‘turning around’ and heading to Yarnell…
It was ALREADY getting ‘squirrelly’ and switching directions ( back and forth ) from NORTH to EAST even when they arrived circa 12:15 PM.
They could also ALREADY ( as early as 12:15 PM ) see that there were TWO HEADS to the fire… which ground command seemed unaware of ( until they told them about it ).
—————————————————————-
568 Q: Okay, and, ah, so, ah, did it sound like these guys, ah, doing the structure
569 protection have their act together, ah, in terms of what they were dealing’ with
570 at that point in time? Ah, you know, sometimes you can read that into what
571 you’re hearing and sometimes you can’t, but, ah…
572
573 A or A1: They were, ah, very focused on point protection, um, and, ah, – I’d say they
574 were a little oblivious to the fire around them. Um, we struggled – we had
575 conversation. We struggled with, ah, the, ah, indirectness, um, and the lack of
576 placement that they had. We dedicated a fair amount of resources, um, to
577 them and, ah, we, um, at some point – that fire h- would advance running to
578 the north and then it would switch to the east.
579
580 Q: Right.
581
582 A or A1: Um, and when that fire then would advance to the north again, ah, that –
583 would – had split at some point. There’s now two…
584
585 Q: Two heads.
586
587 A or A1: Two heads that are running down, and, ah, one of those heads, um, appeared
588 to threaten the ingress and egress of those people that were working those
589 structures.
590
591 Q: So you were concerned about their safety and where they could go?
592
593 A or A1: Actually, I told them, ah, – at some point I – they were very, um, they were
594 very attentive to the structures. They weren’t – like I said, they were- seemed
595 to be a little oblivious to, um, where they were and, um, and I told them that if
596 ya – you better have a good spot to be that you’re willing to ride this out or
597 you need to, um, there was another fire…
645 A or A1: And I had that that sense. I was very concerned, um, that they did not have a
646 good sense of what was coming or how fast the fire was coming in.
647
648 Q: Yeah, gotcha.
649
650 A or A1: They had terrain features too that were – that egress got cut off. It was a one651
way egress, and if that fire would’ve got too far out there and then you get a –
652 ‘cause we know the way it’s gonna switch.
653
654 Q: (Unintelligible) you know that now.
655
656 A or A1: We know. No, we knew it THEN.
657
658 Q: Yeah.
———————————————————————
So here we have the first mention by Warbis and Lenmark that they KNEW the fire was going to ‘switch’ even as early as 12:15 PM that day.
ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks was even careful to make sure and distinguish between whether they are talking about something they know NOW ( as in, with hindsight on the day of the interview ) or wether they knew it THEN ( at 12:15 PM on June 30, 2013 ).
Warbis / Lenmark absolutely verify they are talking about something they knew THEN ( THAT day ) shortly after arriving in Yarnell circa 12:15 PM.
They then go on to explain more of their observations circa 12:15 PM and how they thought they might be witnessing an actual ‘entrapment’ situation already developing ‘down there’ for Willis and his crew(s)…
Their experience, combined with what they were seeing with their own eyes, told them it was NOT going to simply continue to push ‘downhill’ like it had been all morning.
There were now TWO heads… and also multiple FINGERS and it was still very EARLY in a burn cycle that was going to take place in EXTREME potential fire behavior conditions.
They were now even pointing at a ‘Google Map’ screen the ADOSH investigators had up and explaining EXACTLY why they thought that Willis and his crews were already in extreme danger AND how the fire was going to be ‘headed toward Yarnell’ in THAT day’s burn cycle…
——————————————————————
659
660 A or A1: (Unintelligible).
661
662 Q: Yeah.
663
664 A or A1: Ah, so we know it’s gonna switch at some point ‘cause it’s not gonna keep
665 pushin’ downhill.
666
667 Q: Right.
668
669 A or A1: But if it could swing – if it’d had gone left instead of right, it would’ve made
670 that same swing up into there and it could’ve been an entrapment situation.
671
672 Q: Another (unintelligible) situation.
673
674 ((Crosstalk))
675
676 A or A1: Make sure you’re in a good spot.
677
678 Q: Oh, God, yeah.
679
680 A or A1: (Unintelligible) left.
681
682 Q: And – and they had good black that they could get into.
683
684 A or A1: (Unintelligible).
685
686 A or A1: They were in the green with structures.
687
688 Q: Yeah – yeah.
689
690 A or A1: Yeah. That fire’s running down that ridge you can see (unintelligible).
691 Peeples Valley and Yarnell sits over here and you can see that the fire’s been
692 running downhill.
693
694 Q: Right.
695
696 A or A1: Every once in a while, that fire would swing a little bit to the east, and when it
697 did, it would stand up of course because it was a long front.
698
699 Q: Yeah.
700
701 A or A1: And that is the furthest most finger. There’s another – so this finger, this is a
702 finger here.
703
704 Q: Right.
705
706 A or A1: And there’s another finger over there.
—————————————————————-
Just from what they were seeing on the ground when they arrived… they KNEW it was in the process of ‘switching’… and which WAY it was going to ‘switch’ ( towards Yarnell ).
ADOSH investigator Barry Hicks now does a slight ‘sidestep’ in the interview and wanted to know how well Warbis and Lenmark had been ‘briefed’ by Air Attack Rory Collins as he left Yarnell to go refuel circa NOON.
This is now when Warbis and Lenmark say that even at 12:15 PM, just after they arrived in Yarnell, they were already SURE that the ‘Granite Mountain Hotshots’ were (quote) “out of play” with regards to accomplishing ANYTHING useful.
——————————————————————–
834 Q: Did he talk about, ah – ah, the Granite Mountain Hotshots being up at Division
835 Alpha?
836
837 A or A1: He – they mentioned that they had a crew back on the tail of the fire – that they
838 were going to be out there in the black.
839
840 Q: Okay.
841
842 A or A1: At – at way to the south.
843
844 Q: Okay.
845
846 A or A1: And they were – at that point, they were out of play. I mean, they were…
847
848 Q: Right. By the time you got there, th- it was not…
849
850 A or A1: Because they had – they had started working that ridge over on that side and
851 they had started a line there…
852
853 Q: Yeah.
854
855 A or A1: …and it looked like they were gonna discontinue that because it – it had
856 already run so far down and they were just – and – and they were just basically
857 staged there right now just waiting to see what happens.
858
859 Q: Okay.
—————————————————————
Right after telling ADOSH that even as early as 12:15 or 12:30 PM ( right after they finished their initial drops at the direction of SPGS2 Darrell Willis ) when they took their ‘turn around the fire’ to look at ALL of it.. they were sure that ‘Granite Mountain’ was already “out of the game” where they were…
…they then tell ADOSH again that they had ALREADY (quote) “identified Yarnell as coming into play at some point in the day”… and they had ALREADY decided they better start focusing on the EAST flank in order to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell.
This is also where Warbis and Lenmark seem to say that by the time they played ‘follow the bouncing OPS’ with ground command… the person they ended up discussing all this important information with was ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez…
————————————————————————-
907 A or A1: We struggled with, ah, just that command structure that, ah, so I asked the
908 operations at the time who is the d- or I asked – I had divisions just trying to –
909 so when we finished working up the head, we had more um, identified Yarnell
910 as coming into play at some point in the day for sure and, ah, started working –
911 wanted to work on that right flank with a point of origin – that’s the east
912 side…
913
914 Q: Right.
915
916 A or A1: Um, and wanted to work through operations – the chain of command
917 operations and the division to make that happen.
918
919 Q: Right.
920
921 A or A1: Um, and we struggled with the divisions, um, and I asked – I ended up going
922 to operations and asking operations, um, how do you have these divisions laid
923 out – left flank Alpha, right flank Zulu – okay. And then finally got a hold of,
924 um, the division. It seemed to ha, it, have, operations had some idea these
925 guys, um, it was just – they didn’t – they weren’t quite – and I think that
926 involved fire stuff, but, um, you know, where’s my piece of ground?
927
928 Q: Right.
929
930 A or A1: So…
931
932 Q: So, did you ever actually talk to Division Zulu?
933
934 A1: I did.
935
936 Q: And, ah, did he have a good feel for what was what? Ah…
937
938 A or A1: Ah, I – I tried to, ah, it was a long time ago. I tried too ah, um…
939
940 Q: Yeah.
941
942 A or A1: …um, portray to Division Zulu that he had, um, a lot of fire that Yarnell was
943 um, we’re in a lead plane and we’re looking up kind of at Yarnell. It was very
944 obvious…
945
946 Q: Yeah.
947
948 A or A1: …of that train. And, ah…
949
950 A or A1: On that – on the first pass as we came around there, we identified that because
951 then another crane became available. We pulled the helicopter – worked him
952 on the back side to the south with a dip spot.
953
954 Q: Okay.
955
956 A or A1: …and backed them up and supported the right flank, but as soon as we came
957 around that corner, it was – this is gonna come into play – and I remember the
958 discussion with division talking about trigger points. You know, and at that
959 point, we’re not thinking crews at all. We’re thinking evacuation of Yarnell.
——————————————————————————-
So right there we have Warbis and Lenmark saying they were trying to ‘express’ their size-up of the situation ( circa 12:15 PM ) even right after their ‘first pass’ around the fire to ‘Division Zulu’. They were trying to (quote) “portray” to ‘Division Zulu’ how much fire their already was and that Yarnell WAS going to come into play and they better start thinking ‘evacuations’ ( like RIGHT NOW… even as early as 12:15 PM ).
All that happened after that was an argument with Eric Marsh about where Division A and Division Z should be… and then Rance Marquez basically ‘disappeared’ ( from the radio, anyway ) for the rest of the afternoon.
It is still unknown if ‘Division Z’ actually relayed any of this important information from Air Attack ‘Bravo 3’ to ANYONE else that day.
No other interviews really mention either HEARING this important ‘expected fire behavior’ report from Bravo 3 as it was happening OR being told anything about Bravo 3’s concerns by ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez.
Bravo 3 has just told a Division Supervisor that they KNEW the fire would be heading into Yarnell that afternoon and that they were already ‘thinking’ ( even as early as 12:15 PM ) that ‘evacuations’ of Yarnell itself should already be taking place… but that ‘intelligence’ appears to have just gotten ‘lost in the noise’ that day.
It was (apparently) all given directly to the ‘Division Supervisor’ who should have been the most concerned about it… since the town of Yarnell was INSIDE his ‘Division boundaries’… but that man just basically ‘disappeared’ after receiving this information, didn’t really pass that important information on to anyone else… and then wasn’t even bothering to hang around and actually manage the very Division he had (supposedly) been assigned.
At the very END of the ADOSH interview with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Warbis and Lenmark ), it was time for people to ask any questions they might have forgotten to ask so far and Q3 Dave Larsen ( Rest in Peace ) really wanted to revisit their comments from earlier in the interview that they KNEW the fire was going to ‘go into Yarnell’ as early as 12:30 PM, shortly after arriving in Yarnell.
Their responses here at the end of the interview clear some things up, like…
They DID discuss their concerns about the fire definitely going to ‘go into Yarnell’ during THAT afternoon’s ‘burn cycle’ with ‘Division Z’, even though they never knew his name was Rance Marquez.
——————————————————————————-
4148 Q3: Could – could I ask (them) a – ask a question?
4149
4150 Q1: Yeah.
4151
4152 Q3: Well, I – the – the, uh, you know, when the guys say, uh, and – and it goes back
4153 to, uh, comments about you knew it was gonna switch direction. The fire – the
4154 fire was gonna – it had been going for a couple of days, uh, southwest,
4155 northeast essentially. But you knew, or you kinda said, well, you could just
4156 tell, or I forget exactly what the comment was. But you knew it was gonna go
4157 – switch and go to the, uh, south. How come you knew that and – and I think
4158 that – that – that actually surprised many of the people in the fire. And you
4159 might say it surprised, uh, Granite Mountain. So how did you – how did – what
4160 – how did you know it was gonna flip?
4161
4162 A or A1: You can’t watch fire run downhill and establish the bottom of that fuel load
4163 and then be in a lead plane and look up at all the fuel that it still has to burn at,
4164 you know, say it’s noon. Um, you can’t have that much fire that low on a hill
4165 with that continuous fuel, um, that much fire, that much activity at that time of
4166 day. It’s gonna – there’s – it’s gonna go. It’s gonna burn that hard downhill.
4167 What’s it gonna do when it – when the wind switches? Which it’s not gonna
4168 burn downhill all day long and – it never burns downhill all day long. What’s it
4169 gonna do when the wind switches and it gets in alignment with, uh, terrain
4170 slope, um, and wind?
4171
4172 A or A1: That and you’re watching weather move towards you from the opposite
4173 direction.
4174
4175 Q: From the north.
4176
4177 A or A1: Yeah.
4178
4179 A or A1: It was 15 minutes into our first turn that we had the conversation that it was
4180 going to Yarnell that day. We’re looking at…
4181
4182 Q: (Unintelligible).
4183
4184 A or A1: We’re looking up at Yarnell, um, putting retardant at Peeples Valley looking
4185 up and it’s going to – it’s going to be there today. How fast it’s going to occur,
4186 that’s speculation. We’re guessing it just is – it can’t run downhill that hard. It
4187 just can’t go that hard, um, downhill.
4188
4189 Q3: And – and can you tell me, uh, what time of day have you figured that out, at
4190 noon, at 12:30, at 1:00, at…
4191
4192 A or A1: What do you mean…
4193
4194 ((Crosstalk))
4195
4196 A or A1: It’s the – it’s within the first 15 minutes of our first turn. So I – I can’t tell you
4197 when we leave. I don’t have the time when we leave. Um, I suspect it’s
4198 11:00ish when we leave Fort Huachuca. It’s an hour en route so maybe it’s
4199 noonish.
4200
4201 A or A1: Yeah. Um, if I was to – I mean this is, uh, taking a guess, but it – it seemed like
4202 we were meeting the tanker at 12:30.
4203
4204 A or A1: Yeah, I just don’t remember the times.
4205
4206 A or A1: (Unintelligible). I was (unintelligible).
4207
4208 ((Crosstalk))
4209
4210 A or A1: It’s early though.
4211
4212 Q: We can figure that out though.
4213
4214 A or A1: The burning period, it’s early.
4215
4216 Q: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
4217
4218 A or A1: It’s (unintelligible).
4219
4220 Q: Yeah.
4221
4222 A or A1: I mean all the flanks are active all over.
4223
4224 Q: Yeah, yeah. And we’ve got other people that are describing the fire that, um,
4225 that flaming front that same way. So, uh, I – and I think we can pin that time
4226 down, Dave, uh, uh, from the other information we have. So, um, um,
4227 anything else from anybody?
4228
4229 Q3: Do – do – are you – did you – did you share those – those thoughts with anyone
4230 on the ground?
4231
4232 A or A1: Absolutely. That was the conversation with division – or structure group 2.
4233 That was the decision – the discussion with trying to figure out why – who –
4234 who has this east flank, who is the division in charge of this, um, because it’s
4235 gonna go and who – who do I need to talk with, who do I need to coordinate
4236 with this, um, and the conversations then with Operations, um, who is the
4237 division, who – here’s what we’re going to do, um, in this division. That’s –
4238 that’s the reason that there’s that indirect line that goes all the way down. Um,
4239 that’s the reason that there’s that picture of – of that indirect line that goes all
4240 the way, um, all the way down.
4241
4242 Q: And we’re gonna – we’re gonna draw that indirect line here on the map here in
4243 a little bit, Dave.
4244
4245 Q3: Thank you. No, I – I – I seen the indirect line and always wondered what was
4246 that thing about. I always wondered the first time I saw it, “What is that?”
4247 thing all about.
4248
4249 A or A1: (Unintelligible). You know something, in a regular situation you would never
4250 go that indirect in that fuel pipe with retardant, right? I mean…
4251
4252 Q3: Yeah.
4253
4254 A or A1: …it’s not the place that you would, uh, naturally pick unless there’s – here’s our
4255 option. It’s like it’s gonna go here. We might as well put some – we’ve got to
4256 put something – we’ve got to do something. We’ve got to put something in
4257 between, um, town and that fire.
4258
4259 A or A1: Right.
4260
4261 Q3: I mean I – I do think that’s why I was wondering that, you know, they were
4262 clanking that dozer around out there thinking they were gonna, uh, do
4263 something like that and burn off from it. So that’s why – that’s why I ask you
4264 did they ever talk about I mean do we just re-enforce this line or any of that
4265 stuff? Apparently not.
4266
4267 A or A1: I had none of those conversations.
4268
4269 A or A1: The problem about that is they had – they had really no place to anchor to
4270 except retardant and you don’t really want to anchor in and start burning off
4271 retardant unless you’re just running with your drip torch out the door.
4272
4273 A or A1: (Unintelligible).
4274
4275 Q3: Well, they thought they were gonna anchor off of the heel of the fire and those
4276 guys were gonna – gonna anchor into the dozer line. They were gonna show
4277 them the dozer line off on the – to the – and rock it out in some cliffs out there,
4278 uh, uh, someplace. And – and that kind of just was the thought that they had
4279 and burned out that night. We they, and that didn’t happen.
4280
4281 A or A1: Well, when she turned, she turned fast. I mean that was really fast.
4282
4283 Q3: Yeah.
4284
4285 Q: Okay. Anything else?
4286
4287 Q1: Actually, I just have one more question. You ever, uh, ever recall talking to a
4288 guy named Rance or Marquez?
4289
4290 A or A1: Um, I don’t – I don’t recall talking with a Rance or a Marquez. Um, maybe I –
4291 boy, I don’t know. That’s a lot of conversations ago. I just don’t remember.
4292
4293 Q1: Yeah, yeah, sure.
4294
4295 A or A1: Most of the time when we’re talking to people and we’re talking to them by
4296 position.
4297
4298 Q: By position rather than…
4299
4300 A or A1: Yeah, exactly. You’re Division Alpha, Division Zulu, Ops. I…
4301
4302 Q3: He – he would have been Division Zulu.
4303
4304 A or A1: Well, I talked with Division Zulu. I did not – wouldn’t have his name but I
4305 talked with Division – I did talk with Division Zulu.
4306
4307 Q3: Okay.
4308
4309 Q: Okay. Anything else?
4310
4311 Q1: Uh, no. Thank you again for you time, gentleman.
4312
4313 Q2: Thank you very much.
END OF ADOSH INTERVIEW WITH ‘BRAVO 3’, WARBIS AND LENMARK
——————————————————————————
Followup…
Even a full HOUR before ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived on the Yarnell Hill Fire to relieve Air Attack Rory Collins so he could go refuel… Air Attack Rory Collins himself informed Dispatch that the Yarnell fire was already ‘swtiching’ and was now moving both NORTH and EAST at the same time.
‘Bravo 3’ arrived around NOON and saw the same thing right away… and that is why the moment after they did those initial retardant drops to help support Darrell Willis ( at his direction ) at the Double-Bar-A-Ranch they looked over the entire situation from the air and realized that the fire was GOING to be heading into Yarnell THAT afternoon ( not tomorrow, like some people were still thinking around NOON that day ).
As they sized up the situation ( from the air ) on that SOUTH end of the fire, towards Yarnell, all they saw was a Hotshot crew out on a western ridge ( Granite Mountain ) that was ( in their words ) “Already out of play” and they just assumed GM was simply ‘staged’ out there and waiting for some other assignment… and another Hotshot crew ( Blue Ridge ) just sitting around by their Crew Carriers doing absolutely nothing ( circa 12:15 PM ).
In their own words… they said no one ‘down there’ was ENGAGING and they needed to either do that or get out of there.
So that’s when THEY ( Warbis and Lenmark ) decided that since THEY were now ‘Air Attack’. for this critical time at even just the start of the afternoon burn cycle… THEY better try and do SOMETHING to protect Yarnell.
That is when they decided ( on their own ) to start laying that long retardant line from west to east across the valley. This is the one seen in Parker and MacKenzie photos stretching across the ‘valley’.
Even they admitted to ADOSH that it was, in fact, highly unusual to just start laying a line of retardant like that down the middle of ( quote ) “a fuel pipe”… but that’s how strongly they felt even circa 12:30 PM that no one was doing ANYTHING on that south end to try and protect Yarnell and someone had to do SOMETHING.
Here is the proof ( from the Dispatch logs themselves ) that even AA Rory Collins knew at 11:01 AM that the fire was now burning BOTH North AND East at the same time…
From the “I-Dispatch Records” PDF file in the SAIR FOIA/FOIL release…
PDF page 39 ( of 97 pages )…
Date/Time: 06/30/2013 11:01.58 AM
From: AA ( Air Attack Rory Collins )
To: ALH
Message: FIRE IS APPROX 500 AC AND MOVING TO THE NORTH
AND EAST AT THIS TIME.
A direct link to this ‘I-Dispatch Records” document is below…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AAAReNxWTP2ditFy7LMT31Spa/Dispatch%20Records/I-Dispatch%20Records.pdf?dl=0
**
** ONLINE VIDEO INTERVIEW WITH ‘AIR ATTACK’ RORY COLLINS
Air Attack Rory Collins features heavily in the ‘News 20’ Helicopter footage discussed just below.
Pilot Sam Farris and/or ‘News 20’ reporter Tammy Rose recorded his voice a number of times on Sunday, June 30, 2013 and they left those recordings in their PUBLIC CNN ‘iReport’ video(s).
About a week BEFORE Yarnell… Rory Collins was also working the DOCE fire near Prescott as ‘ATGS / Air Attack’ and ‘News 20’ reporter Tammy Rose was there as well.
She caught up with him at the Prescott Airport… and Rory Collins consented to a full on-camera interview with ‘News 20’ reporter Tammy Rose.
The ‘News 20’ chopper, with reporter Tammy Rose onboard, did a video report on the DOCE Fire that was published in PUBLIC on June 21, 2013, just 9 days before Yarnell, and it includes this on-camera interview with Air Attack Rorry Collins at +38 seconds into the video.
So if anyone was wondering what the ‘elusive’ Mr. Rory Collins actually LOOKS and SOUNDS like… just watch at +38 seconds into this PUBLIC ‘News 20’ video posted by reporter Tammy Rose…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ctXtQxbZDE&index=12&list=UU0a7s9PLqwIDZLkjF4OpwOg
**
** ANOTHER ‘THROUGH THE LOOKING GLASS’ STYLE CROSSFADE
**
** NEWS 20 HELICOPTER FOOTAGE FROM JUNE 30, 2013
Down below I wrote…
———————————————————————————–
There WAS another media ship ‘out there’ prior to the ABC15 ‘Air 15′ arrival.
This would have been pilot ‘Sam Farris’ working for ‘News 20’ that day.
Farris flies for Helicopters Inc., providing shared coverage for news stations KTVK-TV (Channel 3), KPHO-TV (CBS channel 5) and KPNX-TV (NBC Channel 12), and also flies for the Phoenix Police Department.
He was the first helicopter pilot on the scene at Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
He appears to have been working for Channel ’20′ that day and was, in fact, identifying himself to Air Attack Rory Collins using callsign ‘News 20′.
I can’t seem to find any evidence anywhere that any of Sam Farris’ VIDEO was used in any mainstream media reports. The only ‘aerial footage’ from the fire that day that is showing up anywhere online has always just been the ABC15 ‘Air 15′ footage. It was used a LOT.
———————————————————————————–
Well… after 2 full days of some pretty wide searching… I have, in fact, actually found at least one online news report that used some of Sam Farris’ VIDEO that he shot from Helicopter ‘News 20’ in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
The link to that online article will be posted as a direct reply to this message in order to obey the ‘one link per post’ rule.
Even this one online media report just used a VERY short VIDEO clip taken by Sam Farris. It is only 3.5 to 4 seconds long and is a view of the fire as it was circa 1500 / 3:00 PM as seen from out WEST and looking back to the EAST from his assigned altitude of about 8,500 feet.
It shows that even by 3:00 PM that day… the fire had ALREADY begun to ‘turn’ to the SOUTH and is now burning/blowing almost due EAST… but was still ‘turning’ to the SOUTH.
The LEFT side of the video frame shows the Peeples Valley area, including the large green round crop circle that was being used as the HELIBASE that day and where Eric Panebaker and his crew had their cameras set up along Hays Ranch Road.
The RIGHT / TOP of the video shows the northern outskirts of Yarnell in the distance.
When the VIDEO clip starts… the ‘Double Bar A Ranch’ is ‘behind the smoke’ in about the left, bottom center of the video, just over the ridge in the foreground. It had most certainly already been ‘evacuated’ by Darrell Willis and his crews and was either already ‘burning over’ or was just about to.
The ‘anchor point’ and the area where Granite Mountain was working circa 3:00 PM is NOT shown in this video clip. It would have been slightly ‘off camera’ to the SOUTH and just ‘out of frame’ on the RIGHT side of the video
I have extracted this ‘News 20’ VIDEO clip from the online report and have done another ‘through the looking glass’ style CROSSFADE from a stillframe in the video into the equivalent ‘Google Earth’ view showing all the terrain and landscape features that are ‘hidden’ behind the smoke in the video itself.
Here is a direct link to the new ‘Crossfade’ video for this ‘News 20’ Helicopter footage…
http://youtu.be/uUTVCthHZkk
The ‘News 20’ Helicopter VIDEO clip itself repeats THREE times… then it begins a slow crossfade from the video into the equivalent ‘Google Earth’ view.
The crossfade also repeats THREE times… then ( at the end ) it ‘pans back’ in Google Earth for a WIDER view of the area that was captured by this ‘News 20’ Helicopter footage.
Sam Farris ( in the ‘News 20’ chooper ) arrived pretty early that day and appears to have even been there around the time that Rory Collins had to bring in ‘Bravo 3’ as an alternate Air Attack circa 12:30 PM when Collins needed to leave Yarnell and go refuel.
In the complete online video clip… there is even some footage taken from inside the ‘News 20’ chopper that captures the moment when Air Attack Rory Collins was asking pilot Sam Farris if he could change his assigned altitude to something higher so that Rory could ‘bring in another Air Attack’. Pilot Sam Farris complies.
It is also not known exactly when Sam Farris and the ‘News 20’ chopper actually LEFT Yarnell, but it appears to have also been circa 3:00 PM and, perhaps, just after the VIDEO footage featured in the CROSSFADE was taken.
Unlike ABC15 ‘Air 15’ Chopper ‘Five Hotel Delta’., there is (apparently) no definite Air-To-Air radio channel capture of ‘News 20’ pilot Sam Farris ‘signing off’ the fire and saying ‘GOODBYE’ to ‘Air Attack’. Apparently, when Sam Farris was ready to leave, he just left, and didn’t communicate with ‘Air Attack’ about it like ABC15 ‘Air 15’ did.
The only CLUE to when Sam Farris and the ‘News 20’ chopper actually left Yarnell that day is also in the transcript of the online article and related to something Sam Farris himself says.
Sam Farris is being ‘interviewed’ for that online article that features his own footage and he says that when he left Yarnell that Sunday the town was ‘intact’ and no homes had burned yet.
Pilot Sam Farris actually said…
——————————————————————————–
+0:28
(News 20 Helicopter – Pilot Sam Farris): When we left yesterday the town was intact. The homes were intact… and I don’t think any homes had been destroyed.
——————————————————————————–
That establishes a fairly ‘early’ departure time for Sam Farris and the ‘News 20’ chopper.
Even at that time, however, Pilot Sam Farris himself is commenting on how ‘squirrelly’ the winds had become and were now ‘shifting’… even up at his assigned altitude of 8,500 to 9,000 feet.
In the online VIDEO.. Pilot Sam Farris actually says this about the ‘winds’…
——————————————————————————-
+0:48
(News 20 Helicopter – Pilot Sam Farris):
The winds were shifting… so there were… you were getting some swirl effect.
There’s a little bit of a bowl just on the… the north lip of.. ah…Yarnell Hill.
And so… ah.. there were.. you were gettin’ some swirl and you were getting some wind shifts.
And even at altitude. We were at nine thousand feet and we were getting some wind shifts up there.
———————————————————————————
I will still post a link to this online article as a Reply to this message, but because of the relevant information it contains with regards to this CROSSFADE video clip… here is the full TRANSCRIPT of that online report…
————————————————————————————–
TRANSCRIPT OF CNN ‘iReport’ VIDEO FILED BY
NEWS 20 REPORTER TAMMY ROSE ON JULY 1, 2013
————————————————————————————–
This CNN ‘iReport’ video is only 1 minute and 15 seconds long.
NOTE: When video starts we are seeing a two-engine tanker with the number 45 in white letters on a red tail flying in the background and Air Attack Rory Collins is speaking to him.
+0:00
(Air Attack Rory Collins): Yea… we’ll be live on that flank. No factor for ya. Just keep right on a’going.
+0:04
(News 20 reporter Tammy Rose): Despite an intense fight from the air and ground, the Yarnell Hill Fire rips an entire community apart… leveling hundreds of homes and killing 19 firefighters.
NOTE: Background footage during above is of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ doing a bucket drop, and various shots of DAMAGE to Yarnell. This footage seems to have been taken on July 1, when the report was actually filed.
** VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM JUNE 30 ??
NOTE: At +0:13 into this video… we are seeing footage from the day before. It has Air Attack Rory Collins talking to Helicopter pilot Sam Farris himself asking him if he can move his media ship up higher so he can bring in an ‘Air Attack’. If this really is now video/audio from June 30, 2013… then this could be the moment circa NOON on Sunday when Collins needed to leave to refuel and he was bringing in ‘Bravo 3′ ( Warbis and Lenmark ) to replace him as Air Attack.
+0:13
(Air Attack Rory Collins): Can I get you to go up to eight thousand five hundred? I need to bring an Air Attack in at seven thousand five hundred?
+0:18
(News 20 Helicopter – Pilot Sam Farris): You got it, sir. Eight thousand five hundred. We’re climbin’. News 20.
** VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM JUNE 30
NOTE: At +0:18 is also the moment we see some actual VIDEO footage of the fire from Sunday, June 30, 2013. It’s from the same general location as the ‘still’ photos seen in other online articles about ‘Sam Farris’ and looking in the same direction. The chopper is out to the Northwest and shooting back to the Southeast over that western ridge and towards Yarnell.
+0:21
(News 20 reporter Tammy Rose): News 20 Pilot Sam Farris was the first media helicopter on scene Sunday, before the fire took a dramatic turn for the worse.
NOTE: We are now seeing Sam Farris himself speaking to the camera
+0:28
(News 20 Helicopter – Pilot Sam Farris): When we left yesterday the town was intact. The homes were intact… and I don’t think any homes had been destroyed.
+0:32
(New 20 reporter Tammy Rose): While some homes were completely leveled… others were left standing… only to remain in danger as flames continued to inch closer.
NOTE: The video now shifts to a SEAT drop. It is not clear whether this SEAT drop footage was from Sunday, June 30… or was taken on Monday, July 1, the day this iReport was filed. We watch the drop take place and we hear the comments from Air Attack about it…
+0:40
(Air Attack – Rory Collins? Rusty Warbis?): Boy, she’s sure got a good tail on it. You just gotta… you got a little bit just outside of it… she carried with ya a little bit. Coulda been just a little bit earlier.
NOTE: We now see Sam Farris again talking to the camera…
+0:48
(News 20 Helicopter – Pilot Sam Farris):
The winds were shifting… so there were… you were getting some swirl effect. There’s a little bit of a bowl just on the… the north lip of.. ah…Yarnell Hill. And so… ah.. there were.. you were gettin’ some swirl and you were getting some wind shifts. And even at altitude. We were at nine thousand feet and we were getting some wind shifts up there.
** VIDEO FOOTAGE FROM JUNE 30
At +0;58 and +1:00 – We also seem to be seeing VIDEO footage in the background that was taken on Sunday, June 30, 2013. The first short clip is a closeup of some flames and the second is a wider shot of a fireline buring up a hill. Locations for these clips have not been determined yet.
+1:02
(New 20 reporter Tammy Rose): As firefighters continue their fight a temporary flight restriction is expanded to ten miles and ten thousand feet. Still… you can make out the devestation this inferno has cause so far.
NOTE: Video ends with some footage of Tammy Rose herself sitting in the back seat of the New 20 chopper with a headset on.
+1:13
(News 20 reporter Tammy Rose): Reporting in Yarnell. Tammy Rose.
+1:15 – CNN ‘iReport’ VIDEO ENDS
———————————————————————————-
A LINK to this actual CNN ‘iReport’ video will be posted as a ‘Reply’ to this post in order to honor the ‘one link per post’ rule.
Here is a direct link to the complete CNN ‘iReport’ that accompanies the transcript printed above. The actual VIDEO CLIP taken from the ‘News 20’ Chopper on Sunday, June 30, 2013 that was used for the CROSSFADE posted above is at +18 seconds into this ‘iReport’.
CNN iReport ( VIDEO )
Yarnell Hill Fire
By chopperrose | Posted July 1, 2013
Helicopter Reporter Tammy Rose and News 20 Pilot Sam Farris
get a closer look at the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 firefighters from up above.
http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-998376
** SAME ‘NEWS 20’ FOOTAGE / REPORT SITTING ON YOUTUBE…
On the same day that ‘News 20’ reporter Tammy Rose posted that ‘iReport’ to CNN ( July 1, 2013 ), she also posted the same VIDEO footage to her own YouTube account.
This is actually a slightly better quality VIDEO than what appears in the CNN ‘iReport’ itself.
The same video clip of the Yarnell Fire used in the CROSSFADE posted above comes at +18 seconds into this video.
News 20 VIDEO footage on YOUTUBE
Uploaded by reporter ‘Tammy Rose’ herself.
Youtube account name ‘Tammy Rose’.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Rlpp_wBOKs
NOTE: In order to hear ALL of the AUDIO for this video… be sure to have BOTH sides of a ‘headset’ on or you will miss some of it. Reporter Tammy Rose only recorded her own narrative in the LEFT audio channel and there are times when the recordings of Air Attack Rory Collins only appear in the RIGHT audio channel.
** ORIGINAL ‘ANTHEM NEWS’ INTERVIEW WITH PILOT SAM FARRIS
And here is a direct link to that original ‘Anthem News’ article that appeared which was an actual interview with ‘News 20’ helicopter pilot Sam Farris ABOUT his experiences at the Yarnell Hill Fire.
This article does NOT contain any links to any VIDEO… but it does feature at least one still photograph taken by Farris from the ‘News 20’ chopper that day.
This photograph that appears at the top of this article was taken from the same general location as the VIDEO clip featured in the CROSSFADE posted above, and looking in the same general SOUTHEAST direction out there from the WEST of the Weaver Mountain Ridge itself.
It was taken with a very WIDE angle lens and is a little ‘distorted’… but the fire and the smoke column are seen maybe only a few minutes BEFORE the VIDEO clip itself.
COVERING YARNELL: An Interview with Helicopter Pilot Sam Farris
http://www.anthemnews.com/yarnell_fire/
From the article…
By Editor July 2, 2013
COVERING YARNELL
Questions for Helicopter Pilot Sam Farris
If you’ve seen aerial footage of the tragic Yarnell fire, there’s a good
chance former Anthem resident Sam Farris was flying the helicopter.
Farris (Anthemites may remember him as owner of Western Traditions
Realty), flies for Helicopters Inc., providing shared coverage for news
stations KTVK-TV (Channel 3), KPHO-TV (CBS channel 5) and
KPNX-TV (NBC Channel 12), and also flies for the Phoenix Police
Department. He was the first helicopter pilot on the scene at Yarnell.
( Article continues with a question/answer session with Pilot Sam Farris ).
**
** WAS ERIC MARSH STILL ALIVE AND CALLING ‘BRAVO 33’
** AS LATE AS 1648 ( 4:48 PM )?
There has always been the following ‘testimony’ sitting in the SAIT notes from their interview with the three men who were onboard ‘Bravo 33’ on the afternoon of June 30, 2013.
Those three men were…
Thomas French: Pilot. Handling ‘Lead Plane’ duties and solely responsible for handling radio traffic on the Air-To-Air channel.
John Burfiend: Right seat. Sharing ‘Air Attack’ responsibilites with French but his job was to be handling all the Air-To-Ground radio traffic so French didn’t have to.
Clint Cross: Burfiend’s trainee. Back seat. Duties uknown but SAIT notes also say he was keeping a written log of important events such as actual drops AND recording important radio traffic such as the first MAYDAY from GM Captain Jesse Steed. That ‘log’ he had supposedly been keeping was NOT part of the FOIA/FOIL release package and it is still unknown if anyone has ever seen it.
In the TESTIMONY from the interview with these men… there has always been the following…
———————————————————————————————————-
BRAVO 33 SAIT TESTIMONY – PAGE 15 OF YIN
———————————————————————————————————-
The supervisor was dead calm about 5 minutes before they sheltered.
By the time the tanker showed up both retardant lines were compromised.
I told Tom “lets fly something further down”.
Did the run.
I think 910 had us in sight.
We were right here (pointed at map) when Granite Mountain 7 called screaming in the radio.
Ops said “are you getting this?
I told Granite Mountain 7 “you need to calm down. I can’t understand you”.
Immediately Division A called and said “we are starting a burn out, we are getting in our shelters.
I said we got people in trouble.
Tanker called and said I got you in sight.
I claimed out – the DC10 swung wide.
I looked at John and he did this (slash across the throat).
I told Kevin to stand by copy, taking it around.
We have a crew in trouble. We are going to go look.
I put the DC10 in a holding pattern because we had 2 helos in the area (1735) low on fuel.
Cleared them to the dip site to drop their bucket.
It was just a sea of black and we needed the helos up.
At first KA wanted to get the bucket but John said “no, we need to find these guys”.
KA couldn’t see the rigs, there was too much smoke.
“Copy, you are getting in your shelter, listen for the aircraft, we don’t know where you are”.
After 1 minute he said again “we are going into shelters”.
At one point 910 thought he heard him call but there was too much noise……..maybe not.
I kept calling and looking……….nothing.
Never saw them earlier. I didn’t know they were there.
Air attack didn’t tell me there were resources in the area.
On the 3rd run, I heard the crew.
There was about two minutes between runs.
——————————————————————————————
So… from ‘Bravo 33’ own testimony… we have always seem to have
had the following…
“Copy, you are getting in your shelter, listen for the aircraft, we don’t know where you are”.
That matches conversation actually captured near the end of the Helmet-Cam video.
Then the very next sentence is…
“After 1 minute he said again “we are going into shelters”.
That has always been saying that even after the moment when they were asking if the men could ‘hear the aircraft’… and even AFTER the end of the Helmet-Cam video itself… there was ANOTHER transmission from Marsh about them ‘going into the shelters’. This would even match what Eric Marsh SAID he was going to do in his prior transmission when he said he would “Give you a call when we are under the sh- shelters”.
Then there is this…
“At one point 910 thought he heard him call but there was too much noise…….. maybe not. I kept calling and looking……….nothing.”
Again… it is unclear whether that is Burfiend or French supplying that ‘testimony’, but if DC10 VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ had anything to say about this to Bravo 33 during this timeframe then it was probably over the A2A channel. French and Kevin HAD been actively conversing on that channel when the MAYDAYS were actually hitting on the other A2G channel. So that probably is ‘French’ supplying that part of the testimony.
Finally… there is THIS…
“On the 3rd run, I heard the crew. There was about two minutes between runs.”
If there were ‘about two minutes between runs’… Then either Burfiend or French is saying that they ‘heard the crew’ on the THIRD run… which would mean it was at least FOUR minutes AFTER they had ‘started their runs’ looking for GM. If they actually ‘heard the crew’ towards the MIDDLE or the END of that THIRD run then that could mean it was FIVE and ONE/HALF to even SIX minutes after they had ‘started their runs’.
That would put this (supposed) ‘additional’ transmission from Marsh and/or GM out beyond the END of the Helmet-Cam video itself.
** PANEBAKER VIDEOS SUPPORT SOME OF THIS TESTIMONY
As it turns out… the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel captures have actually always been secondary evidence to SUPPORT some of these additional transmissions from Marsh and/or ‘the crew’ as testified to in the SAIT notes.
What actually happened is that the Panebaker video that was covering the MAYDAY and ‘Helmet-Cam’ capture timeframe ENDS at 1643 ( 4:43 PM ).
In that 20130630_1643_EP Panebaker video… we DO hear French finally reacting to the deployment traffic, telling DC10 VLAT 910 pilot ‘Kevin’ to go into a holding pattern while they see if they can locate the men… and he then starts ‘recalling’ some Type 1 Helicopters.
French’s RECALL of some of the Type 1 Helicopters is the LAST thing we hear in that 1643 video.
Eric Panebaker then STOPPED that recording, then took TWO minutes to either change batteries or put a new (blank) SD card in the camera.
Eric Panebaker then REACTIVATED the Air-To-Air channel capture at exactly 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM ).
So…
Panebaker Air-To-Air capture video 20130630_1643_EP ended at 1643.13 ( 4:43.13 PM )
Panebaker Air-To-Air capture video 20130630_1716_EP started at 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
That’s a GAP of 2 minutes and 6 seconds between 1643 and 1645 when no recording of the Air-To-Air channel radio traffic was taking place.
When the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture RESUMED at 1645.19… there was now suddenly so much STATIC on the A2A channel capture that for 2 minutes and 41 seconds it is virtually impossible to make out any of the radio traffic… even with some pretty sophisticated ‘noise removal’ filtering.
However… at +2:42 into this next video… the STATIC actually starts to CLEAR and it is now easier to make out some things that are being said on the radio.
——————————————————————————–
PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP
STARTS AT 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Complete STATIC for the first 2 minutes and 41 seconds,
then the static starts to ‘clear up’ and the followinig transmissions
can be heard…
+02:42 ( 1648.01 / 4:48.01 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Kilo Alpha. I’m headed there and I’m off to your right (??) (the column).
+02:45 ( 1648.04 / 4:48.04 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy that. Uh… (??)
NOTE: Helicopter 5KA had already left the area prior to the MAYDAY traffic because it needed to go to Wickenburg to refuel. It had already exited the area to the WEST and was flying SOUTH to Wickenburg when the MAYDAY traffic hit the radio at 1639.
5KA was still cose enough to Yarnell to hear ALL the MAYDAY traffic and 5KA have even called French directly on the Air-To-Air channel DURING the MAYDAY calls to tell them ‘Operations has something for ya’ because he was hearing the traffic but wasn’t hearing ‘Bravo 33′ respond and he decided he better give them that ‘heads up’ in case the reason they weren’t responding at that time is because they weren’t hearing that radio traffic. So the following exchange seems to have been all about how much GAS they ( 5KA ) had left…
+02:50 ( 1648.09 / 4:48.09 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Tell ya what, here, I’ll do a one-eighty and catch up with ya… and we got at least 20 minutes or more… possible.
+02:56 ( 1648.15 / 4:48.15 PM )
(B33 – French): ( Hard to make out… but it seems that French is cautioning them about their fuel situation and asks him to promise he’ll watch that. There is even some testimony about this taking place in some interviews. See testimony from ‘Bravo 33′ SAIT interview that mentions they were concerned about TWO helos in the area that were ‘low on fuel’. 5KA is even mentioned ( Just as KA as having wanted to go DIP but Burfiend said no… that they needed to ‘find these guys’ right away.) Transmission at this time sounds something like…
Promise me you won’t (?? take any chances ?? ).
+02:58 ( 1648.17 / 4:48.17 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Yea… I’ll give my promise but we’re real short.
NOTE: The static actually FULLY CLEARS for a moment and the following is CLEARLY heard…
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): I think Division Alpha was callin’ ya on Air-To-Ground.
—————————————————————————————
IMPORTANT: Notice the last CLEARLY HEARD entry up above at 1648.26 ( 4:48.26 PM ).
Just AFTER the pilot of ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ has finished his discussion with French about being low on fuel… but he is doing a ’180′ and returning to Yarnell anyway… he THEN immediately tells French that he thinks ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) may have just tried to call ‘Bravo 33′ again on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
This actually SUPPORTS some of that testimony from French and Burfiend during their SAIR interview. ( See above ).
They SAID that they ‘heard some things’ even after the Helmet-Cam had ended, and this actual radio transmission capture seems to indicate that even other people monitoring the radio channels ( Five Kilo Alpha ) heard the same ‘additional’ callouts from ‘Division Alpha’.
If ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ really had just heard ‘Division Alpha’ calling B33 on Air-To-Ground at the moment the time-verified video transcript above seems to say he did…
…then that means Eric Marsh was still alive as late as 1648.26 ( 4:48.26 PM ).
That is EIGHT and ONE/HALF minutes after the initial MAYDAY call from Captain Jesse Steed at 1639 ( 4:39 PM ) and a full SIX and ONE/HALF minutes after Division A Eric Marsh had come onto the A2G channel saying their ‘escape route had been cut off’ and they were ‘deploying’.
This all comes down to whether the pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ really was trying to tell French that he had just heard ‘Division A calling you’ at 1648.26… or whether he was only now referring to something he had heard previously.
Even if he was referriing to a ‘previous’ call… how ‘previous’?
Within the last 30 seconds? Within the last 60 seconds?
Given the circumstances… I don’t think it is possible that the pilot of 5KA would have been referring to anything he heard 5 or 10 minutes ago. This was an emergency… and I think he was trying to tell French about something he had JUST heard following that ”we are low on gas’ conversation and just MOMENTS before he called him at 1648.26 to TELL him about it in case French had just now ‘missed’ it.
If 5KA wanted to relay to French that ‘Division A just called you’ and it happened prior to 1648… then I believe he would have mentioned it ‘right away’ and even BEFORE they had that mundane ‘chat’ about how much ‘gas’ he had left.
The pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ was never interviewed by either the SAIT or ADOSH ( as far as we know ).
Just one more VERY important interview of someone who was hearing EVERYTHING that was transpiring on the radio in that critical timeframe that was never done.
Right up there with Prescott Bea Day team off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell, and Aaron Hulburd ( who was the one actually FILMING the Helmet-Cam video and probably remembers exactly what that conversation at the start of it was really all about ).
Hmmm. This reminded me of a couple of things.
I was VERY confused while listening to those videos way back when at that point. As in “Why is this thing way up here when all that other stuff is way back there??” Since now reading this, I’m not confused any more. I think you’re possibly right. I don’t think 5KA would have made (all things considered) that late callout if he hadn’t heard something “else.”
Then I started remembering about those stories about that helicopter crew guy that was interviewed up at Model Creek on Wednesday the third during the “Media Tour.” Todd Pederson.
So I went back to Chapter Seven. where he was discussed.
He and the rest of his crew were attached to 5KA. And so I did some more hunting today.
Came across the Annual Reports of the Payette National Forest for 2011, 2012, and 2013. 5KA and that crew are part of the Central District, They’re Price Valley Rappel Helitack. They’re both mentioned in these reports. Todd Pederson is also. The 5KA Helitack crew in 2013 had 13 members (this probably doesn’t include the pilot, but I don’t know), including an additional member who was “detailing” from another crew (who is named in the resource order). It normally had twelve. I think the crew had some members who were, otherwise, Type 2 Initial Attack Firefighters.
The report is kind of sketchy, and I haven’t had time to go look for more details.
I had been thinking that crew must have been close-by to have gotten to the Yarnell in such very short order.
Interestingly enough, at least some of the crew (according to the report) appears to have been dispatched to the Doce Fire for six days. It doesn’t say which six days.
If Todd Pederson was on the Yarnell Hill fire on June 30 and July 3, he was on IT for at least four days.
So what’s REALLY interesting is that the report doesn’t mention the Yarnell Hill Fire ANYWHERE, although they document a whole lot of other details about a whole lot of other out-of-PayetteNF fires and projects various PayetteNF resources worked on.
Todd Pederson was ordered to quit talking about the Granite Mountain “Mayday” radio transmissions he heard as he was being interviewed by the media on the “Media Tour” by, apparently, a USFS official.
So, apparently, at least some preliminary version of the USFS “gag order” (which Bill Gabbert, in his article about that “gag order,” said was totally unprecedented) was being put in place as early as that day. And, thus, even the Payette National Forest 2013 Annual Report avoided ANY MENTION of their helicopter’s/helitack crew’s/possible IAType 2 crew’s involvement in it.
I’m currently thinking, all things considered, (including the fact that that crew is not EVER mentioned in any of either Todd Abel’s or Paul Musser’s or Todd Foster’s or Darrell Willis’s interviews or reports), since Todd Pederson said he was working in the Model Creek area when it all came down, it makes sense that he and at least parts of his crew were on the ground actually directing 5KA’s suppression drops.
What doesn’t make sense is that, in order to do that, they would have HAD to have been coordinating those drops in some way with the above-mentioned people.
(Right now I’m thinking “out loud” here).
I don’t know what sorts of radio frequencies he/they would have been listening to/communicating over. Obviously Air2Ground, possibly Tac 1, probably Tac 2, possibly an intra-crew w/their helicopter (?), probably listening to Air2Air.
I don’t know if this is something of a clincher, but in that Chapter VII conversation about Todd Pederson, on June 1, 2014 at 8:33 AM, FIRE20+ wrote,
“The pilot for this aircraft probably unloaded what he heard to these Managers.”
The 2013 Payette National Forest Annual Report is here:
http://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/stelprd3793734.pdf
Reply to Marti Reed post on September 27, 2014 at 9:12 pm
>> Marti Reed said…
>>
.>> I don’t think 5KA would have made (all things considered) that
>> late callout if he hadn’t heard something “else.”
Neither do I. I don’t even care if it turns out that transmission was coming from pilot ‘Kevin’ in DC10 VLAT 910 ( doubtful, but still possible, I guess ).
Whoever was telling Thomas French at 1648 that they thought ‘Division A’ was ‘calling him’ MUST have meant ‘just now’… and they were NOT referring to anything that happened 5 or 10 minutes earlier or anything that we can hear for ourselves in the Helmet Cam.
Even 5 minutes is an ‘eternity’ during an emergency like that.
It would have been absolutely counter-productive, at 1648, for ANYONE to be notifying Thomas French in B33 that ‘Division A is calling you’ unless it was a “and I mean RIGHT NOW’ sort of thing.
I think one of the points I failed to mention above about this is that it doesn’t matter WHO that transmission CAME from… there is other evidence in SAIT interview notes that would support it coming from EITHER Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ OR from pilot Kevin in VLAT 910… or even BOTH.
In BOTH cases… the ‘testimony’ has ALWAYS been talking about ‘contact with the crew’ that happened well AFTER the end of the Helmet-Cam video timeframe itself… but no set of investigators ever bothered to follow up on any of this and clear things up.
That transmission in the Panebaker 1716 video is CLEAR and SHARP.
There is no mistaking that at exactly 1648 someone was suddenly telling Thomas French that they thought Division A was ‘calling him’.
That recording is as clear and sharp as Eric Marsh ‘reporting’ the status of Granite Mountain ( to someone ) at exactly 1627 in the YARNELL-GAMBLE video.
BOTH transmissions are a FACT.
They HAPPENED ( but both have yet to be explained ).
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> So what’s REALLY interesting is that the report doesn’t mention
>> the Yarnell Hill Fire ANYWHERE, although they document a
>> whole lot of other details about a whole lot of other
>> out-of-PayetteNF fires and projects various PayetteNF resources
>> worked on.
I have read this report… and you are RIGHT.
There is CONSPICUOUSLY absolutely NO mention of their participation in/at Yarnell… even though we KNOW this ‘team’ was there. ( They all show up in the PUBLIC resource orders for Yarnell ).
Sort of like Bea Day team off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
It almost seems like someone is making an EFFORT to make it difficult to even tell they were THERE in Yarnell the afternoon of June 30, 2013… even though we KNOW that they were.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> Todd Pederson was ordered to quit talking about the Granite
>> Mountain “Mayday” radio transmissions he heard as he was
>> being interviewed by the media on the “Media Tour” by,
>> apparently, a USFS official.
I think that ‘Media Tour’ that day was being conducted by Arizona Forestry… but regardless… it’s still a fact that WHOEVER was ‘leading’ the media people around that day basically told Pederson to “Shut The Fuck Up” when he started mentioning what HE had heard coming over the radio.
AZ Forestry probably already knew about the Helmet-Cam video… but probably still thought they might never have to reveal its existence to anyone.
They obviously had already started to ‘control the narrative’ and just wanted anything that had anything to do with ‘radio transmission’ to stay out of the media’s hands or they would ‘lose control of the narrative’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> So, apparently, at least some preliminary version of the
>> USFS “gag order” (which Bill Gabbert, in his article about
>> that “gag order,” said was totally unprecedented) was being
>> put in place as early as that day.
That might have been a real ‘oh shit’ moment for Arizona Forestry, Jim Karels, Mike Dudley… and any other mysterious ‘US Forestry’ folks that might have already been involved. They knew they had to TALK to the media and do these kind of ‘controlled media events’ and even let them ‘interview’ people they were coming across ( like Pedersen )… but they forgot that everyone listens to the Air-To-Ground channel.
What is still astounding is that there is this documented moment when yet another firefighter was admitting, in no uncertain terms, that they HEARD a lot of interesting radio traffic around the time of the deployment… but that even after the STFU order to Pedersen… there is no record that anyone ever even bothered to interview him to actually discover WHAT he heard ( or didn’t hear ).
It really would seem to just be one more indicator that ( for them ), it was NEVER about following EVERY lead that might lead to a better understanding of the TRUTH… it was ALWAYS just about being able to ‘control the narrative’ that was going to appear in the ‘reports’.
>> Marti also wrote…
>>
>> I’m currently thinking, all things considered, (including the fact that
>> that crew is not EVER mentioned in any of either Todd Abel’s
>> or Paul Musser’s or Todd Foster’s or Darrell Willis’s interviews or
>> reports), since Todd Pederson said he was working in the Model
>> Creek area when it all came down, it makes sense that he and at
>> least parts of his crew were on the ground actually directing
>> 5KA’s suppression drops.
I’m not sure about earlier in the day ( prior to Eric Panebaker and his crew setting up and activating their cameras )… but the Air-To-Air channel captures tend to indicate that the pilot of 5KA was taking ALL of his ‘drop orders’ from Thomas French in B33. He was constantly ASKING Thomas French where he should ‘continue working’.
>> Marti also said…
>>
>> What doesn’t make sense is that, in order to do that, they would
>> have HAD to have been coordinating those drops in some way
>> with the above-mentioned people.
I’m not sure this is related, or whether it shoots this discussion off onto another ‘tangent’… but when it comes to WHO was actually directing ‘drops’ up there on that north side of the fire at the time when ‘Bravo 3’ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived to take over ‘Air Attack’ duties from Rory Collins while he left Yarnell to refuel circa NOON… there was only ONE ‘go to’ person to talk to.
It wasn’t IC Roy Hall ( he was basically useless ALL day ).
It wasn’t Planning OPS2 Paul Musser ( he wasn’t out on the fire yet ).
It wasn’t even Field OPS1 Todd Abel.
It was even ‘lower’ on the ‘totem pole’ than that.
It was ‘Structure Protection Group Supervisor 2’ Darrell Willis.
Both Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark told ADOSH that when they first arrived on the fire… they were taking there ‘drop orders’ from someone named ‘Darrell’.
They even wrote that name ‘Darrel’ down in their own notes as they one they were told was their ‘primary ground contact’ for air drops when they arrived in Yarnell.
Darrell Wills makes absolutely NO mention of this in any of his interviews or in his own Unit Logs.
ADOSH invterview with ‘Bravo 3’ – Warbis and Lenmark
—————————————————————————-
Q = Barry Hicks
A = Rusty Warbis
A1 = Paul Lenmark
A2 = Alex Viscusi ( Attorney from Solicitor’s Office in Boise, Idaho )
—————————————————————————-
488 Q: So you guys got there first before Bravo 33?
489
490 A or A1: We had the first…
491
492 Q: You had the first VLAT drop?
493
494 A or A1: Mm-hmm.
495
496 Q: Okay, and, ah, do you remember, ah, where that, ah, that – that VLAT drop
497 was? Was it on the north end of the fire?
498
499 A or A1: It was.
500
501 Q: And, ah, what was the objective, ah, as you recall it? Ah…
502
503 A or A1: It was running into the community of, ah, what is it – Peeples?
504
505 Q: Peeples Valley.
506
507 A or A1: Peeples Valley. Ah, the structure’s threatened.
508
509 Q: Right.
510
511 A or A1: Ah, coming down on them. So when we arrived, that was after contacting the
512 ground folks. That was our primary objective – was to keep it out of – try to
513 get a line established there. So that was our first – first concentration of
514 retardant that we put in.
515
516 Q1: Sorry, I – I wasn’t sure. Are we talking about – was this on the, ah, 29th – June
517 29th or June 30th?
518
519 A or A1: It was, ah, June 30th.
520
521 A or A1: 30th.
522
523 A or A1: So the – Peeples – the first, ah, fire – did that fire push to the north? Crossed
524 that head and structure and point protection structure across that head.
525
526 Q: Right. And who were you talking to on the ground at that point in time? Do
527 you remember, ah, – and the ground contact was?
528
529 A or A1: Our primary contact was stricture – structure group 2, ah, by Engine 58 that
530 we were talking with as well, but our primary, ah – ah, contact was structure
531 group 2.
532
533 Q: Did you know who that was or…
534
535 A or A1: I have, ah, just a note written – it’s Darrell…
536
537 Q: Darrell Willis?
538
539 A or A1: I don’t know his last name. I have…
540
541 Q: Okay. Ah, that would be correct if it was structure group 2.
542 It’d be Darrell Willis.
————————————————————————-
Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 ) actually got there ‘late’ and the VLAT had
already been ‘orbiting’ and waiting for them to arrive.
Rory Collins was really low on fuel and had actually already left the area just prior to them arriving. He ‘in-briefed’ them over the radio from a distance while he was already on his way to go refuel.
Their testimony above then says that SPGS2 Darrell Willis was then the one that TOLD them where to DROP that first VLAT load right after arriving.
Right after that… Warbis and Lenmark testify they took their first ‘turn around the fire’ to see what it ALL looked like… and they say that before they even finished their ‘first turn around the fire’… they KNEW that it was going to be going into Yarnell THAT afternoon.
It really had nothing to do with the wind, as far as they were concerned.
They were already basing their own evaluation ( at NOON or NOON THIRTY )
on ‘current and expected fire behavior’ as they were ALREADY seeing it unfold on the ground underneath them.
That is the moment when THEY decided they had to do SOMETHING to try and protect Yarnell.
THEY are the ones who then decided ( on their own ) to start building that looooong retardant line across the valley from the ‘anchor point’ all the way across the ‘valley’ over to just north of the Harper Canyon area.
This is still right around NOON or NOON THIRTY that day.
When ADOSH investigators asked them if they actually TOLD anyone what they seemed to already know so early in the day about the fire definitely GOING to heading into Yarnell sometime later that afternoon… and they were now going to be basing drop assignments on that FACT… they said that they DID ‘discuss it with ground ops’.
Problem is ( according to their ADOSH testimony ) the ‘ground ops’ that
they discussed this ‘revelation’ with was none other than Division Z, Ranch Marquez… who had only now showed up in the Sesame Area and was declaring that he was ‘Division Z’ ( which included Yarnell itself ).
So here you have experienced Air Support people taking ONE look at that fire even as early as NOON or NOON-THIRTY and KNOWING that it was GOING to ‘head into Yarnell’… and then they thought they fully communicated this ‘knowledge’ to ‘ground command’ ( Division Z ).
Turns out the only person they seemed to have told was the very guy who was about to ‘disappear’ and not even hang around to manage the ‘Division Z’ where Yarnell itself was located.
Whoops.
In this same section of their interview ( when ADOSH investigators are still just focusing on what they did just after they ARRIVED ) is when Warbis and Lenmark also say they were so sure that ‘Granite Mountain’ was (quote) “already out of the game” and that everything they were doing up on that west flank was totally POINTLESS ( even at NOON or NOON THIRTY )… they reached the conclusion that GM must simply be ‘staged’ out there and waiting for someone to tell them what ELSE they should be doing.
So even at NOON or NOON THIRTY on Sunday, June 30, 2013… there is evidence of a MASSIVE ‘disconnect’ between what the ‘Air Support’ seemed to already KNOW… and it then taking HOURS for people on the ground to become aware of the same ‘realities’.
I still think just that MASSIVE ‘disconnect’ between Air Support and Ground Support that day is something that should be carefully studied to make SURE it never happens again.
Typo up above. I misspelled a name.
‘Divsion Z’ that day was Rance Marquez, not Ranch Marquez.
Also a followup point…
Warbis and Lenmark are saying they discussed their conclusions ( circa NOON or NOON THRITY ) about the fire DEFINITELY going to threaten Yarnell in the upcoming afternoon burn cycle…
…but we also know from other testimony that Eric Marsh was overhearing that initial conversation between ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez and ‘Air Attack’ when Marquez first arrived in the Sesame Area.
That is the conversation that got Marsh pre-pissed off before he even had a chance to talk to Marquez.
So ( theoretically ) whatever intel about what the fire was GOING to do that afternoon that was being passed on from Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 ) to Rance Marquez… DIVSA Eric Marsh probably heard it as well.
It was only NOON or NOON THIRTY.
That’s FOUR hours before Granite Mountain would finally end up leaving the safe black and then try to get to town.
Thanks for your response, WTKTT!
There is just so much FAIL in all of this.
Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that the fire was going to TURN AROUND and head to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
I’ve been picking my way back in time to learn some things about the history of Price Valley Heli-Rappell and 5KA. It’s a fairly significant (in a positive way) history.
Price Valley Heli-Rappell (and it’s a highly professional rappelling crew) was on the 2008 Iron Complex Fire, working as a crew near the H-44 helispot where the Carson Helicopter crashed, killing 9 people. Price Valley contributed significant EMS response and 5KA was involved in that response. 5KA flew to that scene in that emergency, and was the helicopter that lifted out the body of Jim Ramage, the highly acclaimed USFS Helicopter Inspector that was aboard that doomed flight.
And that’s not all that I”ve been reading about this crew and this helicopter. So. I guess what I’m saying here is that I’ve been seeing that this is a crew and a helicopter that has some serious creds.
You, back in Chapter VII, kind of knocked Pederson because of his appearance. I think we need to take his attempts to communicate what he said VERY seriously.
There was a Zion NF Helitack crew supervisor who, along with their helicopter, was the first “on the scene” of that Iron Complex helicopter crash, and thus had to coordinate things for awhile, who wrote about it, including the details–that included both Price Valley and 5KA on their website. And then he had to scrub that narrative because he was “ordered to do so.”
From what I’ve read, Price Valley Heli-Rappell and THEIR CONTRACTED helicopter 5KA (KA is short for Kachina Aviation, the company that owns the helicopter and hires the pilot), is a highly professional wildland aerial fire-fighting crew.
I have NO IDEA how/why they were dispatched to this fire, except possibly that they seem to have already been working on the Doce Fire.
All things considered, I have a hard time believing 5KA’s helitack crew (and especially Todd Pederson, the Helicopter Manager and thus Crew Supervisor) didn’t have some kind of serious hand in coordinating what that helicopter was doing during that afternoon. That’s how this stuff is managed.
A 5-year contracted helicopter and the agency/crew that is contracting it (and has been for five years) have a SIGNIFICANT relationship with each other.
If 5KA is reporting a “late” call by Eric Marsh; and it’s Manager is reporting communiques from him and then being “gagged” by the USFS (as was, apparently, the Zion Helitack Supervisor regarding the Iron Fire crash),
there is YES a serious problem.
Idaho’s Payette National Forest Price Valley Heli-Rappell Crew’s fairly otherwise awesome 2013 summary YouTube video which doesn’t include even a molecule of their involvement in the Yarnell Hill Fire:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QlTVuhePqUw
Reply to Marti Reed post on September 28, 2014 at 11:55 pm
>> Marti said…
>>
>> Thanks for your response, WTKTT!
>> There is just so much FAIL in all of this.
>>
>> Do you have any idea WHAT indicated to B3 that
>> the fire was going to TURN AROUND and head
>> to Yarnell as early as they sensed that?
Marti… Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark told the ADOSH investigators EXACTLY why they were SURE ( even after just arriving at NOON or 12:15 PM ) the fire was going into Yarnell THAT afternoon.
I have posted those exact parts of their ADOSH testimony in a new parent comment up above since those line-numbered excerpts from ADOSH testimony need all the ‘horizontal column space’ they can get to be formatted correctly.
Followup to my original comment up above.
I said…
——————————————————————–
I’m not sure this is related, or whether it shoots this discussion off onto another ‘tangent’… but when it comes to WHO was actually directing ‘drops’ up there on that north side of the fire at the time when ‘Bravo 3′ ( Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark ) arrived to take over ‘Air Attack’ duties from Rory Collins while he left Yarnell to refuel circa NOON… there was only ONE ‘go to’ person to talk to.
It wasn’t IC Roy Hall ( he was basically useless ALL day ).
It wasn’t Planning OPS2 Paul Musser ( he wasn’t out on the fire yet ).
It wasn’t even Field OPS1 Todd Abel.
It was even ‘lower’ on the ‘totem pole’ than that.
It was ‘Structure Protection Group Supervisor 2′ Darrell Willis.
Both Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark told ADOSH that when they first arrived on the fire… they were taking there ‘drop orders’ from someone named ‘Darrell’.
They even wrote that name ‘Darrel’ down in their own notes as they one they were told was their ‘primary ground contact’ for air drops when they arrived in Yarnell.
Darrell Wills makes absolutely NO mention of this in any of his interviews or in his own Unit Logs.
————————————————————-
In Darrell Willis’ first ADOSH interview… he DOES mention that there were, in fact, some retardant drops out there around the Double-Bar-A-Ranch while he and his crews will still thinking it could be ‘saved’ circa 12:15 PM.
What he NEVER mentions is what we now know from the ‘Bravo 3’ ADOSH tesimony… that HE, himself, had been designated as Bravo 3’s ‘primary ground contact’ when they arrived on the fire at 12:30 to replace Rory Colliins as Air Attack… and that it was HE, himself, who was requesting AND directing those retardant drops.
What Willis also never mentions is anything about what Rusty Warbis and Paul Lenmark said about who they were passing their ‘intel’ onto after they ‘summed up’ the fire situation and KNEW ( as early as 12:30 PM ) that the fire was going to go into Yarnell THAT day… during THAT burn cycle.
When the ADOSH investigators asked Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 ) if they passed any of this important knowledge on to ‘the ground’… they indicated that they did speak with ‘Division Z’ ( Rance Marquez ) but they ALSO seemed to indicate they passed this ‘Intel’ they had on to Darrell Willis ( Structure Group 2 ).
From the ADOSH interview with Warbis and Lenmark ( Bravo 3 )…
———————————————————————-
4229 Q3: Do – do – are you – did you – did you share those – those thoughts with anyone
4230 on the ground?
4231
4232 A or A1: Absolutely. That was the conversation with division – or structure group 2.
4233 That was the decision – the discussion with trying to figure out why – who –
4234 who has this east flank, who is the division in charge of this, um, because it’s
4235 gonna go ( into Yarnell )
————————————————————————-
So there we have ‘Bravo 3’ remembering this…
A or A1: Absolutely. That was the conversation with division – or structure group 2.
It ‘suggests’ they ALSO discussed their observations about the fire and how it was definitely GOING to go into Yarnell THAT day ( and not tomorrow like DIVSA Marsh and Gary Cordes seemed to think ) with SPGS2 Darrell Willis as well as DIVSZ Marquez.
Willis also mentions nothing about receiving that kind of ‘Intel’ from Bravo 3 or, if he did, passing it along to anyone else.
Marti—–
Unless something new has happened since I left the FS Helitack crews do not have a crew Freq. they are on Tac 1, Tac. 2, Air to Air or A to G, Forest Freq. or they also operate off of a FAA Freq. They could have well been operating on their Forest Frequency in Arizona as a Crew to crew. Which would not have been a conflict.
Helitack Base would have direct contact with the Helicopter over an assigned Freq..
Reply to calvin post on September 23, 2014 at 7:00 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Is it possible that 5HD was actually the news aircraft that
>> was in the Michelle lee tweeted photo?
It’s more than possible.
Once again, Calvin, you are ‘spot on’.
That is EXACTLY who we hear saying ‘Goodbye’ to Thomas French in Bravo 33 DURING the actual MAYDAY sequence.
The actual ‘N’ Tail number of the ABC15 (KNXV) ‘Air 15’ News chooper that was over the fire that day was N915HD.
Call sign must have been ‘Five Hotel Delta’, like we hear in the radio captures.
A close-up photo of that actual Black/Yellow/Orage/White ABC15 ‘Air 15’ chopper complete with ABC15 logo, N915HD tail number, and front camera mount is here…
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000327456.html
However… I still don’t think it is possible that that is the helicopter seen a such a low altitude in the Michelle Lee photo.
As the Panebaker transcript below shows… when the ABC15 ‘Air 15’ chopper arrived on the fire it was assigned an altitude of 9,500 feet, way ABOVE everything else working the fire.
It would NOT have been able to come down any lower than that at any time that day.
** So here is the ABC15 ‘Air 15’ News Chopper ARRIVING at the Yarnell fire…
From Panebaker 20130630_1628_EP video…
———————————————————————————-
MEDIA CHOPPER ‘AIR 15’ ASSOCIATED WITH
ABC 15 ( KNXV – PHOENIX ) ARRIVES ON THE FIRE
REGISTRATION NUMBER: N915HD
———————————————————————————-
NOTE: We can only hear French’s side of this
conversation with the ‘Air 15’ chopper requesting
permission/clearance to fly the fire.
———————————————————————————
N915HD
2002 EUROCOPTER AS 350 B2 Rotorcraft
(6 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: US HELICOPTERS INC., MARSHVILLE, NC
(Corporation)
Serial Number: 3583
———————————————————————————-
+11:30 ( 1559.28 / 3:59.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… and that’s niner one five hotel delta? Is that correct?
+11:35 ( 1559.33 / 3:59.33 PM )
(B33 – French): Will nine thousand five hundred work for ya?
+11:42 ( 1559.40 / 3:59.40 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, uh… five hotel delta… you’re cleared in niner thousand five hundred, two nine eight zero on the altimeter. You’re cleared… uh… to go wherever you need to at nine point five. If you need anything else you let us know, okay? The call sign is Bravo 33.
+11:59 ( 1559.57 / 3:59.57 PM )
(B33 – French): Was there another media ship out there?
+12:05 ( 1600.03 / 4:00.03 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, copy that… so that was… uh… news… you’re the News 15 callin’… okay… thanks a lot.
———————————————————————————
END OF ‘AIR 15’ CHOPPER CHECK-IN TO THE FIRE
———————————————————————————
NOTE: It seems there WAS another media ship ‘out there’ prior to
ABC15 ‘Air 15’ arrival. This would have been pilot ‘Sam Farris’.
Farris flies for Helicopters Inc., providing shared coverage for news
stations KTVK-TV (Channel 3), KPHO-TV (CBS channel 5) and
KPNX-TV (NBC Channel 12), and also flies for the Phoenix Police
Department. He was the first helicopter pilot on the scene at Yarnell.
He appears to have been working for channel ’20’??
There is an article online about Farris and his time over Yarnell, but
even with that article it is still unclear exactly WHEN Sam Farris
arrived over Yarnell… or when he departed. Thomas French in
Bravo 33 ( Air Attack ) wasn’t even sure if he was still there over
Yarnell or not at the time ABC15 ‘Air 15’ showed up.
——————————————————————————–
** And here is the ABC15 ‘Air 15’ News Chopper DEPARTING the Yarnell fire
** right in the middle of the Helmet-Cam MAYDAY calls…
From Panebaker 20130630_1643_EP video…
————————————————————————————
+09:58 ( 1640.48 / 4:40.48 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Bravo three three… this is Five Hotel Delta.
+10:00 ( 1640.50 / 4:40.50 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead sir.
+10:02 ( 1640.52 / 4:40.52 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Yes sir. Uh… we’re complete. We’re heading back to Scottsdale. Thank you very much… uh… (got a little) work down there… and… ah… I’ll see ya tomorrow morning.
+10:10 ( 1641.00 / 4:41.00 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… ah… Delta… uh… one five hel… (French laughs at his own mess-up on the call sign) Oh… Delta… uh… thanks a lot… appreciate the… uh… good como.
+10:17 ( 1641.07 / 4:41.07 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Thank you sir. Good night.
————————————————————————-
ABC15 ‘Air 15’ chopper Arrived: 1559.28 ( 3:59.28 PM )
ABC15 ‘Air 15’ chopper Departed: 1641.07 ( 4:41.07 PM )
Total time spent over the Yarnell Fire: 41 minutes ( and 39 seconds ).
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also, Is it possible that the request to go get some
>> water was directed to 215KA?
I don’t think so.
Helicopter 215KA ( Five Kilo Alpha ) had already departed the area because he was low on fuel and was already well on his way towards Wickenburg at 1639 when the MAYDAY traffic hit the radio.
He was still in radio range, and he DID hear that MAYDAY traffic because the pilot of ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ is who jumped into the Helmet-Cam conversation ( on the A2A channel ) to advise Thomas French in B33 that OPS1 Todd Abel was trying to get him on the radio. ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ had heard the MAYDAY calls AND the direct callout from OPS1 Abel to B33… but when Neither French nor Burfiend seemed to be responding to those calls is when 5KA decided to jump in and just TELL him people were trying to contact B33 and not getting a response… just in case the reason he wasn’t responding to either the GM calls or to OPS1’s direct call was because he didn’t hear them.
NOTE: As already established… Burfiend WAS hearing all that radio traffic ( both GM’s calls and OPS1 Tod Abel’s calls to him ). He just wasn’t responding… but ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ didn’t know that.
‘Five Kilo Alpha’ did COME BACK… even though they were low on fuel, but I don’t think they had even announced they were going to do so until after the Helmet-Cam timeframe.
Here is an exact transcript from that final Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture video that covers the timeframe from 1645 ( 4:45 PM ), while the deployment was still happening, until 1516 ( 5:16 PM ) and the moment that DPS chopper Ranger 58 asks ‘Air Attack’ Bravo 3 ( Rusty Warbis ) for permission to lift off and begin searching for Granite Mountain.
This excerpt from the transcript of THAT video just shows the conversation between French and Five Kilo Alpha about them returning even though though only had about 20 minutes of fuel left onboard.
——————————————————————————–
PANEBAKER VIDEO 20130630_1716_EP
STARTS AT 1645.19 ( 4:45.19 PM )
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: Complete STATIC for the first 2 minutes and 41 seconds,
then the static starts to ‘clear up’ and the followinig transmissions
can be heard…
+02:42 ( 1648.01 / 4:48.01 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Kilo Alpha. I’m headed there and I’m off to your right (??) (the column).
+02:45 ( 1648.04 / 4:48.04 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy that. Uh… (??)
NOTE: Helicopter 5KA had already left the area prior to the MAYDAY traffic because it needed to go to Wickenburg to refuel. It had already exited the area to the WEST and was flying SOUTH to Wickenburg when the MAYDAY traffic hit the radio at 1639.
5KA was still cose enough to Yarnell to hear ALL the MAYDAY traffic and 5KA have even called French directly on the Air-To-Air channel DURING the MAYDAY calls to tell them ‘Operations has something for ya’ because he was hearing the traffic but wasn’t hearing ‘Bravo 33’ respond and he decided he better give them that ‘heads up’ in case the reason they weren’t responding at that time is because they weren’t hearing that radio traffic. So the following exchange seems to have been all about how much GAS they ( 5KA ) had left…
+02:50 ( 1648.09 / 4:48.09 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Tell ya what, here, I’ll do a one-eighty and catch up with ya… and we got at least 20 minutes or more… possible.
+02:56 ( 1648.15 / 4:48.15 PM )
(B33 – French): ( Hard to make out… but it seems that French is cautioning them about their fuel situation and asks him to promise he’ll watch that. There is even some testimony about this taking place in some interviews. See testimony from ‘Bravo 33’ SAIT interview that mentions they were concerned about TWO helos in the area that were ‘low on fuel’. 5KA is even mentioned ( Just as KA as having wanted to go DIP but Burfiend said no… that they needed to ‘find these guys’ right away.) Transmission at this time sounds something like…
Promise me you won’t (?? take any chances ?? ).
+02:58 ( 1648.17 / 4:48.17 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Yea… I’ll give my promise but we’re real short.
NOTE: The static actually CLEARS for a moment and the following is CLEARLY heard…
+03:07 ( 1648.26 / 4:48.26 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): I think Division Alpha was callin’ ya on Air-To-Ground.
—————————————————————————————
IMPORTANT: Notice the last entry up above at 1648.26 ( 4:48.26 PM ).
Just AFTER the pilot of ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ has finished his discussion with French about being low on fuel… but he is doing a ‘180’ and returning to Yarnell anyway… the THEN immediately tells French that he thinks ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ) may have just tried to call ‘Bravo 33’ again on the ‘Air-To-Ground’ channel.
There is also secondary evidence in B33’s SAIT interview that supports this ‘callout’ from Eric Marsh long after the Helmet-Cam even ended.
I’m going to cover this in another post. It’s complicated… but it’s really quite important.
If ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ really had just heard ‘Division Alpha’ calling B33 on Air-To-Ground at the moment the transcript above seems to say he did…
…then that means Eric Marsh was still alive as late as 1648 ( 4:48 PM ).
Followup…
In adition to ABC15 ‘Air 15’… there was ANOTHER ‘media chopper’ over the fire that day and it was being piloted by Sam Farris.
The link below is an article that appeared about him photographing the Yarnell Fire from his helicopter. It says he was the FIRST ‘media chopper’ on the scene.
The link below also has some ‘still photos’ from some of his aerial shots… but it is actually unclear if Sam Farris actually shot any VIDEO that day.
If he did… it’s hard to find.
I can’t find any evidence anywhere that any of Sam Farris’ VIDEO was used in any mainstream media reports. The only ‘aerial footage’ from the fire that day that is showing up anywhere online has always just been the ABC15 ‘Air 15’ footage. It was used a LOT.
I can’t believe that Sam Farris wouldn’t have been shooting VIDEO that day… but so far… I haven’t seen any of it.
** CHANNEL 20 HELICOPTER WAS THERE, TOO
NOTE: Panebaker Air-To-Air channel captures mention another ‘media ship’ supposedly belonging to Channel ’20’ that seemed to have been there before ABC15 ‘Air 15’ arrived.
That was ‘Sam Farris’…
KPAZ – Channel 20 – Phoenix, AZ.
—————————————————————————————
Links for Channel 20 coverage of Yarnell…
http://www.anthemnews.com/yarnell_fire/
From the article…
By Editor July 2, 2013
COVERING YARNELL
Questions for Helicopter Pilot Sam Farris
If you’ve seen aerial footage of the tragic Yarnell fire, there’s a good
chance former Anthem resident Sam Farris was flying the helicopter.
Farris (Anthemites may remember him as owner of Western Traditions
Realty), flies for Helicopters Inc., providing shared coverage for news
stations KTVK-TV (Channel 3), KPHO-TV (CBS channel 5) and
KPNX-TV (NBC Channel 12), and also flies for the Phoenix Police
Department. He was the first helicopter pilot on the scene at Yarnell.
—————————————————————————————
NOTE: In the photo from Helicopter Pilot Sam Farris used in the article above… there is no timestamp… but it’s pretty obvious that photo ( which might be a stillframe from one of his videos? ) was taken somewhere in the 1550 – 1600 timeframe.
The photo is taken from the WEST of the actual Helipad that is there in the foreground on the top of the ridge and is looking back SOUTHEAST towards Yarnell and Glen Ilah.
The fireline is at ( or a little farther along ) the point seen in Christopher MacKenzie’s photos… and that HUGE smoke column would have also been perfectly visible to Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed, and the rest of Granite Mountain from wherever they were at that time.
NOTE: I have already enhanced this photo and ‘looked’ for GM in it.
The timing is such that I thought they might even be visible ‘hiking south’
along the ridge… but even a super-enhancement on this photo shows no sign of any group of men hiking along the ridge.
TTWARE wrote downstream, “nobody cares” regarding the ordering of a Type 2 Short Team.
I REALLY care about this and it has been a steadily burning core concern for me for a long time.
I have ALWAYS considered the short-resourcing of the fire Sunday to be a major stage-setting for the chaos that ensued on Sunday, including, but not limited to, what happened regarding the burnover of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Setting aside the 19, there were a CONSIDERABLE number of near-misses that could easily have turned into additional fatalities that, I believe, were linked to this short-resourcing.
I think the Wildland Fire Associates Report also sees this problem. Starting with the paragraph that says:
“The Arizona Incident Management Team, referred to as IMT2, was ordered as a “short team” and
arrived without some of its key members. The following discussion outlines what happened based upon
dispatch logs, interviews and daily logs. The importance of the discussion is that the team that arrived
was already short-handed and had to fill in with people that were not part of the initial team order. This
led to an organization that lacked the initial cohesion needed to successfully take over a complex fire.”
And it goes on from there to documented what was caused by that.
That may even be the root of the ADOSH charges and the ensuing lawsuits.
I spent a bit of today reading the related interviews. I wanted to know EXACTLY how and why that decision was made.
Especially since practically EVERYBODY says that the transition between Initial Attack and Extended Attack is a VERY dangerous phase and where MANY fatalities and accidents occur.
I found it to be…….muddy.
Shumate, late at night on the 29th ordered a Type 2 Team. He didn’t seem to care whether it was short or “long.” He seemed to have been comfortable letting AZState Fire determine that.
Bee Day’s highly regarded full Type 2 Team was AVAILABLE, and local.
Various conversations with AZStateFire ensued. AZStateFire decided to dispatch the Short Type 2 Team associated with Roy Hall. Shumate felt “comfortable” with that.
Shumate then spent the rest of the night ordering additional resources (some of which were not available).
When Hall and his short Type 2 Team gradually showed up on the fire on Sunday, he spent a lot of time IMHO (with some frustration–including asking for help from Bee Day’s team) filling in the gaps in his team rather than fighting the fire he was dispatched to fight. Thus this “team” never became coherent, much less capable of being proactive to the fire instead of reactive to it.
The Wildland Fire Associates Report does a good job of describing the consequences of all this, including how it impacted the lack of coherent strategic/tactical decision-making regarding what happened in the bowl that day and the critical ineffectiveness of it.
I’ve come across some critiques of ordering Type 2 Short Teams. But not, IMHO, enough.
I really agree with what you are saying.
I’ve been, in my mind, comparing this to the Slide Fire, earlier this summer in Sedona AZ. Relatively early in the game, Tony Sciacca’s Type 1 team was dispatched to it. That team did a relatively amazing job of handling that extremely difficult (in a variety of ways) fire.
That fire was taken SERIOUSLY. And, thus resourced EFFECTIVELY.
The Yarnell Hill Fire wasn’t. Apparently, neither Shumate or the AZFire didn’t realize/decide this fire deserved a response commensurate to the potentially extreme danger it posed to the people impacted by it, both the civilians and the fire-fighters.
I, also, want to know why.
And thus the Lawsuit I thought we had crucified the team over the past year.
every thing you say is true Marti.
When you start a day without plans, a Safety officer, Divisions, or DIV Supervisors a cohesive Air plan, or even enough hand crews and cats to accomplish the line needed to contain the fire.
YOU HAVE LOST THE FIRE, for another shift. In the process putting to many Fire Fighters at risk.
My apologies for mis-spelling (because I was really tired and bleary-eyed) Bea Day’s name. She hates it when people do that.
And I appreciate that you agree with me, Bob Powers. I think all the details we’ve been looking at are symptoms more than they are causes.
After having written what I wrote above, I sat back and thought about it some more. I think the whole thing is intuitively POLITICAL.
The homes, property, beautiful hiking spots, businesses, and natural resources of Yarnell just weren’t as IMPORTANT as those of Sedona (which is probably quite close to “indefensible,” also) and Flagstaff (which is one of the nations best in terms of being relatively “defensible.”)
And the Slide Fire was in the media spotlight from the moment it was first detected. Nobody would have cared about the Yarnell Hill Fire debacle if it hadn’t taken out almost an entire hotshot crew.
Let’s see, how many houses (including half of a small town in Washington and half of a small town in California) have surprisingly rapidly burned so far in wildfires this summer?
The “values at risk” were not considered to be as high. That being said, apparently they weren’t considering the humans at risk (including a bunch of elderly residents and a bunch of under-resourced fire-fighters in front of a potentially EXTREME fire).
The politics of wildland fire-fighting in Region 3. Illustrated.
A Little reminiscing Here—–
First IC’s The Forest Service most Dist. FMO’s and Asst’s were Type 2 and 3 IC’s
So Initial Attack had qualified supervisors. If the fire escaped IA then at least a Type 2 Team was ordered, Or evaluation indicated a Type 1 team.
Under the 10 AM policy—We hit fires hard with every resource available or needed.
I think at this time with all the extremely dry conditions the Fire services should be doing a similar IA because of all the escapes happening and mostly in the Urban Interface.
They blame the large fires today on the 10 AM policy. It has more to do with the drought than the heavy fuels.
I’m thinking a lot about what you are saying here, While still thinking a lot about the difference between the Slide Fire and the Yarnell Hill Fire. And while, also thinking a LOT about the importance of PRE-PLANNING. Consequently my thinking is a bit jumbled.
I’ve had mixed feelings about the 10 AM rule.
When it comes to the Yarnell Hill Fire, which started the night before, I think I pretty much agree. With a 10 AM rule in place, and committed to, and supported, and adequately resourced, they shoulda/coulda nailed that fire by 10 AM on Saturday.
Here’s my internal conflict about that, In the larger scheme of things. Most of that fire actually needed to happen, I believe. And was going to eventually happen, all things considered. So putting it out by 10 AM Saturday would have been like successfully mitigating the symptoms while not addressing the causes, so to speak, in medical terms (which I’m thinking about as my 94-year-old mom is in the hospital). That fire was still going to happen.
Which leads me back to what I’ve been learning and what I’m thinking about the Slide Fire. That fire started at around 3:45 in the afternoon. Early enough to both initial-attack it that afternoon, while realizing that, because of its particular circumstances, it was not going to be able to be contained by 10 AM the next morning. So they timely ordered a Type 1 Incident Command Team to take it over.
That was because it was in a canyon, with fast uphill winds, and they couldn’t SAFELY put fire-fighters on its perimeters or at its head because the canyon was too steep to do that SAFELY.
Which says, also, to me that it’s possible the safety debacle that was the Yarnell Hill Fire WAS very much in peoples’ minds as they were responding to this fire.
Which brings me to the PRE-PLANNING aspect. (This requires reading what I’ve written below to see how I’ve begun to see it).
I think the response to the Slide Fire had been SERIOUSLY pre-planned WAY in advance of its ignition.
This had, necessarily, NOTHING to do with the 10 AM rule and, necessarily, EVERYTHING to do with discerning AHEAD OF TIME what a fire in this particular area would be likely to do and what would likely be necessary to protect the most important values at risk and eventually contain it.
Even though houses and structures were not being particularly well-defended by their owners, the Forest Service was doing A LOT of fuels-reduction on its lands in Northern Arizona, including around Oak Creek Canyon.
Here’s a link to a story about that program:
“Slide Fire: Forest restoration helped crews hold the line”
http://www.azcentral.com/story/news/2014/05/25/slide-fire-arizona-forest-restoration/9581409/
I have a better study of that, but I can’t find the link at the moment.
Part of that work included a lot of prescribed fires. Not only did those prescribed fires help mitigate the risks in Oak Creek Canyon (and on the plateau above, where they “herded” the fire in order to SAFELY contain it), but they taught everybody involved, IMHO, how fires would burn in that challenging area when/if they were ignited.
Thus the fact that when the fire ignited, the Coconino NF person dispatched as Initial Attack Type 3 IC was the person in charge of the Fuels Mitigation Program. He knew exactly how that fire was going to, most likely, proceed, and why, and what things were gonna help them and what things were gonna challenge them.
And I also think he, most likely, knew a fire ignited in Oak Creek Canyon. with the kinds of winds and fuels most likely involved, would not possibly be able to be contained on Initial Attack, and would have, most likely, been involved, along with Sedona Fire Department and Coconino NF, in a LOT of thinking and planning and contingency-planning in the direction of PRE-PLANNING around what they were going to do when that INEVITABLE fire ignited.
I think they had this thing mapped out in duplicate, with a variety of contingency plans, WAY in advance of it actually happening. So that when they ordered up Tony Sciacca’s IMT, Tony Sciacca knew exactly what, most likely, needed to be essentially done.
The thing that, I think, totally SURPRISED and CHALLENGED Tony Sciacca’s team was the weather. It was perfectly awful, going from smoke-filled inversions to wind-filled lifting of those inversions. That meant aerial support was almost totally grounded.
I would be willing to bet they didn’t have THAT in their pre-planning. But they had so much else that they were capable of not being defeated by it.
I don’t have the exact details, but I’m pretty sure that, for the first 5-7 days, because of the weather that, essentially, grounded their air support, they had to, essentially fight that fire on the ground. In a place that made fighting it on the canyon periphery impossible because of SAFETY reasons, which they took VERY SERIOUSLY.
So, I guess what I’m saying, is that not every fire can/should be extinguished “by 10 AM.” Which is why I’m conflicted about that.
And what I’m also discerning is that, because the above is the case, in this time of increasing fire-complexity/intensity, the more communities and agencies evaluate their situations, including Worst Case Scenarios (which nobody wants to think about), and both mitigate their fuel loads and PRE-PLAN how they respond to fires that are ignited around them, the better their outcomes most likely will be.
I really think that a “Lessons Learned” analysis of this fire would be really worth doing.
Even though, as some folks think, the positive analyses of what went RIGHT is less likely to be read because (as is true in mainstream media) “What bleeds leads,” I have all along WISHED I could have been a fly on the wall as all of these decisions wee being made.
This was NOT an easy fire to fight. But, even so, it was fought very successfully. I think it has many things to say about how to fight difficult, dangerous fires successfully. Thus, I think it contains a whole lot of Lessons Learned within it that may be needed to be learned.
I also totally agree with the preplanning and fuels management concept.
We were doing heavy logging in the 60’s thru the 70’s. Producing reduced fuels and roads that were not only access but fuel breaks.
also in non timber areas like LA Basin we were funded to build and maintain fire breaks to help with suppression efforts and keep fires from spreading into the Urban Interface.
Fire prevention people also inspected and required clearance around cabins and structures. Defendable space.
When you have fuel buildup and lack of prevention efforts in the urban interface like Yarnell it is a disaster waiting to happen.
My Thoughts on the 10 AM policy are biased on protection.
In the case of Yarnell while the fuel needed to be reduced the defendable space needed to be accomplished neither had happened.
So a more aggressive IA to protect life and property needed to take place in this area. Aggressive as to 10 AM similar but nessary in some areas as we struggle to increase prevention awareness in protection of ones property.
We are in a sever drought and may stay that way for some time.
Do we continue to fight fires leaving room for them to grow bigger thru less IA response. Or do we Identify those areas that need aggressive IA until we can mitigate the fuel problem and improve property for protection in the Urban Interface?
Managing fires is great as is reducing fuels and providing fuel breaks and protective areas to homes and structures. That all costs a lot of money and a political wiliness to accomplish the pre fire planning and implementation.
Mandatory fire proof construction laws and defensible space roads for access are needed. The political climate of today is not going to let that happen.
Wild Land Fire has a choice Aggressively put fires out or accept the loss of property thru lack of suppression effort. Again its the money, Funding, preplanning and fuels reduction.
So I am back to the only way to mitigate the loss in this day and age. Increased IA will help but it won’t solve the problem. until
Counties, States and the Federal Government provide more funding we will see the continued increase of large fires and Property loss..
It also includes the Property owners responsibility to provide protection for there homes in the wild areas.
Let’s take the current King Fire in California. If you have ever been down HWY 50 and seen all the structures tucked into the forest it was and is a disaster waiting to happen like Pollock pines, Yarnell and many others.
We are in for continued disasters with out a well developed and implemented program in wild land Fire and Urban Interface.
Slide vs. Yarnell, simply put, was the Fed’s way of staffing and funding wildfire suppression vs. the State’s way of staffing and funding wildfire suppression.
Arizona politicians have been quite proud of gutting agency budgets without regard for the aftermath, and that particular PR grandstanding always works until it doesn’t. This has resulted in situations where thousands of child abuse cases were never investigated, along with what appears to have been the go-to standard of bare-bones staffing on state wildfires.
It works until it doesn’t.
You’re right, TTWARE.
And New Mexico and Arizona have a lot in common.
I hadn’t checked out the Initial Attack and was kind of thinking it would have been AZFire because it started close to an Arizona State Park. And the bottom of the canyon is a motley crew of ownership.
I’m still confusable regarding who gets assigned to what and why. Bea Day’s Arizona Type 2 Team was assigned Extended Attack on Thompson Ridge, which was on Valles Caldera National Preserve. I seem to be missing something.
However, the Slide Fire immediately spotted onto Coconino NF land, which occupies most of both sides of Oak Creek Canyon. They had been doing a lot of fuels treatment on that land and one of the fuels treatment project managers became the Type 3 IC immediately.
Found a tweet by Wade Ward who was called onto Sciacca’s team as a PIO. He said on May 24:
“Amazing initial attack preplan and org by Sedona Fire no structures lost in the canyon. Sedona open for business.”
Apparently they weren’t waiting to be surprised.
The Slide Fire was spotted at 3:45 on May 20.
From a letter sent out from the Sedona Fire District on June 11:
“At about 3:45 PM on Tuesday, May 20, 2014, the Sedona Fire District experienced a large fire in Oak Creek Canyon. From the minute we received a notice of smoke and then a report of flames in the Canyon, everyone knew this could be the “Big One”. Fire crews took immediate action by sizing up appropriate fire attack options, evacuation needs within the Canyon, and the need to facilitate interagency cooperation from our state and federal agencies to get appropriate resources to assist in this fire.
The fire was named by the United States Forest Service (USFS) as they worked in a unified command with SFD personnel during the initial attack stages of the fire. Everyone – local, regional, or national – all agreed, this fire was a significant event and the fact no structures or lives were lost is a testament to the great effort put forth by the agencies who initially responded.”
By 10:50 PM Tony Sciacca’s Team had been ordered. And it was reported then, also, on Wildfire.com that “IMT in-brief @ 1500 5/21.”
By 5/21 at 2:19 it was posted, also there, that SWCC had listed Tony Sciacca’s Team in place with him as IC..
My how quickly things can get done!
Preplanning. What every “WUI” needs to do, apparently.
And, while all the above was happening, the fire was blowing up, going from ignition to 20 acres by 6:22 PM to 400 acres by 9:16 PM to 1000 acres by 8:00 AM the next morning to 4500 acres by 5 PM, three hours after the IMT transition. By 7AM the next evening it was at 8000 acres.
And the whole universe, except for the fire3-fighters, was totally freaking out on Social Media. Thankfully, the PIOs set up an awesome FBook page, where they did an admirable job of educating and informing the public.
It CAN be done. But not on the fly.
OK rant over. Got to go visit my 94-year-old mom who is in the hospital.
Typo. “By 7AM the next evening” should read “By 7PM the next evening.”
There are lots of other points of distinction between Sedona and Yarnell. Start with the local fire chiefs. Yarnell may have been singular in employing a man who had, while already an adult firefighter, buried a young child, who he’d knocked unconscious, at the edge of a town dump, while she was still breathing. That fact was not directly at play in any of the specific events of the YHF, but if you put it as a hypothetical that the local fire department has a live-child-burier at the helm, and then ask, does this increase or decrease systemic risk,” personally, I’d have to vote “increase.” Cozy arrangements seem to have been an issue in lots of ways.
At the same time, Sedona also got lucky, and if you drive through the canyon, the fire really left pretty minimal impact overall. The Slide fire was not THE fire, which they will still get unless they impose some reasonable defensible space requirements.
Thx for the response, SR!
I agree w/you regarding the Yarnell Fire Dept. Chief.
I’m still not convinced the success of the Slide Fire Suppression was all that much about LUCK. Especially since the first four or five days worth of weather was seriously working against them.
I think, but I have no evidence at this point–but I’m optimistically looking for it–there was, most likely, a WHOLE lot of looking at how a fire would most likely burn in that canyon, especially after the 2006 fire. And, from that, the decisions about fuels treatment on Forest Service land and, from that experience, developing the knowledge that led to, at the very least, what to do in an Initial Attack, and, I’m thinking what to do when forced to extend that attack. .
I just really don’t think that when Tony Sciacca’s Type 1 Team took over that fire, there wasn’t a collection of “most likely scenarios/plans” in existence. I really don’t think he was making decisions completely “on the fly,” like I think they were doing on the Yarnell Hill Fire.
I think Pre-Planning had more to do with the successful outcome of this fire than Luck.
Yes, this wasn’t the “Big One.” But it really easily could have been, IMHO. And I agree that, to truly prevent the “Big One” (at least in Oak Creek Canyon). the residents of Oak Creek Canyon need to mitigate their properties. But the other “Big One” also includes fire from Oak Creek Canyon jumping the rim and burning the communities further north in the Ponderosa forests.
Which is why I would almost give my right leg to read an After Action Review or some kind of analysis of this fire.
So right now I’m looking at, and I think you might be interested in, this, (which may be the closest thing we have right now to an AAR):
From the Southwest Fire Science Consortium
Slide Fire Field Trip June 13, 2014:
“On June 13, 2014, we toured the recent Slide Fire in Oak Creek Canyon, Arizona. We saw how suppression staff were able to catch spot fires within treatment areas, by using low intensity burnouts, and we visited where the fire started at the south end of the canyon. We were accompanied by fire operations staff who worked the fire both from its initial discovery and throughout the fire.”
http://swfireconsortium.org/slide-fire-field-trip-june-13-2014/
I haven’t even looked all of this at the moment. Just posting it.
The relevance of all this, IMHO, to the Yarnell Hill Fire and the deaths of the 19 (and the surrounding extremely dangerous chaos), is that a major “Lessons Learned” in all of this is that communities (and/or the land-managment-agencies neighboring them) need to confront their wildland fire risks, think about them, mitigate them as much as possible, and PRE-PLAN what they are going to do when that fire ignites. To Save Lives.
Which, in regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire and the insane deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, was never even remotely done. Which doesn’t justify what fatal decisions the crew made, but asks why were they put/left where they were with no intelligent strategy in place to place/leave them there.
I think A LOT of the team of Slide Fire fire-fighters had the Yarnell HIll Fire very much in mind as they tackled the Slide Fire. There were things that the team did/didn’t do that were based on this awareness that the public, I think, didn’t understand, based on what I have read.
The public seriously freaked out over the consequences of strategies the IMT made to “fight fire aggressively after having provided for safety first.”
They freaked out about letting the fire burn up the canyons (especially West Fork) because it was too dangerous to do otherwise, about the back-burning that was necessarily done, and about the successful “catcher’s mitt strategy” that cost at least 20,000 acres of Ponderosa forest.
All of this was done to PROTECT THE FIRE-FIGHTERS while finally containing the fire.
To do this, I think a whole lot more of BRAINS than LUCK was involved. And that includes BRAINS involved in PRE-PLANNING.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 22, 2014 at 7:55 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I would say they would never have IGNORED
>> an emergency call if they had heard all or
>> even part of it.
BINGO.
We KNOW Burfiend heard ‘all or part’ of it. ( He said so ).
So WHY was HE not perceiving it as an EMERGENCY and responding immediately?
He says ( in his SAIT interview ) that he thought it was just some structure protection group calling for retardant.
I still think that is crap and is not supported by even his own recorded statements in the Helmet Cam.
Those were HOTSHOTS calling… and they identified themselves as such on ALL of the radio calls.
I think you just brought the entire discussion back to where it really started. No one is trying to ‘crucify’ anyone in an airplane or ( at least I’m not ) trying to say that even an immediate response would have resulted in some kind of pin-point retardant drop on the men in trouble.
I still don’t think that was possible… given the lateness of even the first MAYDAY call. There just wasn’t enough TIME left to really save those men with an airplane.
The POINT of this whole recent discussion, I believe, has been threefold…
1) WHY didn’t anyone in Bravo 33 seem to be sensing that this was an EMERGENCY sooner than they did… when others on the fire were sure even after the very first call that it WAS.
2) WHO was John Burfiend really talking to at the start of that Helmet-Cam video… and WHAT was that conversation really all about?
3) WHAT did John Burfiend really know about GM’s situation and location even BEFORE Eric Marsh hit the radio and ‘explained’ what was happening… since even BEFORE that happened we hear him telling OPS1 Todd Able that he (supposedly) ALREADY had the “Type 1 Helos ordered back in” and “we’ll do the best we can”?
Here are those THREE radio calls from GM again…
—————————————————————–
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
If you just look at the WORDS themselves ( and forget whether anyone was yelling or not )… there is NO CLEAR INDICATION in just those ‘transmissions’ that this was any kind of EMERGENCY.
They COULD be construed as just a bunch of normal ‘callouts’ with someone trying to get permission to speak to someone ( about something ).
Granted… “We are in front of the flaming front” doesn’t sound good… but it still doesn’t necessarily ( and definitively ) indicate this was a life-threatening situation and because of the suddenness of that first transmission… if anything might have gotten ‘missed’ by someone listening it was most likely to have been that tail-end of that first transmission.
The SECOND and the THIRD calls didn’t repeat that and ended up sounding just like normal calls on the radio when someone is asking permission to speak with someone else.
So that all just goes back to what I said originally ( which is part of what launched this revisit of these radio conversations ). There SHOULD have already been some established radio protocol for DECLARING AN EMERGENCY and there would have been no question at all that even the FIRST radio call was a ‘STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PAY ATTENTION’ situation and that radio call needed to be answered IMMEDIATELY…
…and not TWO MINUTES later.
As I have said before… I don’t think the outcome would have changed in Yarnell itself, but someday… ( hopefully not soon )… those 2 minutes of ‘confusion’ about whether someone is really declaring an EMERGENCY could be the difference between life or death.
I really don’t understand what the big deal is.
Just establish a standard for EMERGENCY radio calls, issue the memos, make SURE everyone understands the new radio protocol and has IMPLEMENTED it and it is now a standard part of the TRAINING… and be done with it.
It’s not hard.
Followup…
If the NWCG ( National Wildfire Coordinating Group ) or the NIFC ( National Interagency Fire Center ) or the USDAFD ( United States Department of Agriculture Forestry Division ) or any other ‘Acronym’ that actually sets STANDARDS for the WFF ‘business’ doesn’t want to use ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’ like Aviation and Maritime have been using for forever…
…then I have a new suggestion for an EMERGENCY radio protocol specifically geared for Wildland Firefighting.
All WFF EMERGENCY radio transmissions should begin with…
“YARNELL, YARNELL, YARNELL”.
It would be pretty hard to not PAY ATTENTION to whatever follows THAT lead-in.
Make it simple stupid————-
Emergency please open TAC 1. or Emergency on Air to Ground DIV A. What ever call sign.
We have used that for years simple and you get every ones attention.
An Emergency is just that from an injury to a entrapment. SIMPLE STUPID.
Not saying anyone here is Stupid just trying to get every ones attention
We have always broke in on radios with EMERGENCY every one shuts up to find out what is happening. Then you call out to who ever you need to get your message to……….
The reason that whatever word is supposed to be used over the radio to indicate an EMERGENCY is normally repeated THREE times is that when the MAYDAY call was first implemented ( in 1924 ) they discovered very quickly that once a MAYDAY was in progress… there was great confusion on the radio with people simply referring to the MAYDAY ( using that word ) creating a situation where others who were listening and not hearing complete traffic thinking that MULTIPLE MAYDAYs were in progress.
So they decided that whoever is REALLY having the EMERGENCY should always prefix their transmissions with the MULTIPLE ‘MAYDAY, MAYDAY, MAYDAY’ call ( three times ) in order to distinguish between radio traffic that is actually FROM the person having the MAYDAY and other people on the radio just ‘talking’ about the MAYDAY itself.
Radios weren’t as good then, and auto-scanning had barely been invented.
This THREE TIME REPEAT simply addressed a ‘functional’ problem that cropped up as soon as the new MAYDAY protocol was ‘in-use’, that’s all.
So even if the word EMERGENCY is the ‘pay attention’ word… it SHOULD still be repeated THREE times on transmissions coming from the party that is actually experiencing the EMERGENCY for the same reasons. To NOT do so COULD cause some confusion at a time when it is absolutely imperative to minimize ANY confusion.
By the way… the word MAYDAY was originally decided upon because the initial radio protocol was developed to help with traffic between England and France… and MAYDAY is the anglicized spelling of the pronunciation of the French word “m’aider” which means “help me”.
One more question for Mr. Powers.
Was even this ‘simple’ procedure you say YOU used to use part of anyone’s actual training?… or was it just something you were supposed to ‘pick up from the other guys’ once you got out on the line?
Part of Radio training up until I retired in 94 I assume it still is.
Do not know what GM taught We always taught Mayday for Air craft.
Either one meant get off the radio some ones in trouble.
Remember Yarnell was a State Fire. The Feds will never use Yarnell as a emergency call. just my guess based on the way the recommendations have not got far in the Federal circles.
Mr. Powers….
Thank you again for your continued patience and your continuing participation in this ongoing discussion.
I have not read ALL the (current) WFF training manuals.
I guess I was just wondering what ( if any ) actual mention of what radio protocol SHOULD be used in truly ‘life threatening’ situations is even part of any official WFF ‘training’ that these men receive.
I don’t care WHAT the actual ‘protocol’ really is… so long as EVERYONE understands what it is.
That’s what ‘protocol’ means. It’s a RULE… and EVERYONE is supposed to FOLLOW it.
Again… just like MAYDAY… another word with ‘French’ origins.
It is from the Middle French prothocole, which itself was derived from Medieval Latin protocollum.
First Known Use: 1541
To come onto the radio in a life-threatening situation with just something as vague as “We are in front of the flaming front” with NO other information just seems as if the person making that call was NEVER even told or instructed how to make that kind of EMERGENCY call.
There is now a famous video of the Granite Mountain Hotshots themselves being FILMED doing one of their ‘Deployment Drills’ some months prior to Yarnell.
Do you realize that in that video itself… NONE of them even have their packs on in order to even ‘practice’ that part of the ‘procedure’ where you must ALWAYS be sure to throw your pack clear of where you are deploying…
…and the Granite Mountain Crew Boss ( Philip Moldanado ) that was conducting the training exercise himself has his sleeves fully rolled up above the elbows DURING the ‘Deployment’ training exercise… as do some of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots went into their shelters on June 30, 2013 WITHOUT all of them having even bothered to throw their packs clear of the deployment site AND a number of them went into shelters with their sleeves rolled up and no gloves on.
If the training is flawed… then how can anyone expect good results when it is the REAL thing?
Oh… I’m sorry. I keep forgetting.
No one did ANYTHING wrong that day.
No need for ANY reviews or revisions or updates to training procedures, radio protocols, or certifications.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
Move along… move along.
Like I said you have a Tree or a rolling rock hit a fire fighter or an emergency like a deployment. You need the Radio open for your emergency.
simple what ever Frequency you know you have contact on…
Emergency B33 Emergency DIV A Powers …. take a break for a response You have to know you are talking to some one before you continue—- Bla Bla Bla. The information should always be precise with location.
What happened to GM I have no Idea Panic maybe.
With no answer they are giving information and lack of information??????
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 24, 2014 at 8:00 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>> What happened to GM I have no Idea Panic maybe.
Well… perhaps… but that would bring us back to the ‘T’ word again.
Training.
That is exactly WHY you train and train and train on certain things… so that if/when the actual situation arises… you are acting out of pure TRAINING and NOT PANIC.
In most life or death situations… PANIC… and you DIE.
No training for some situations can ever achieve the actual adrenalin spike that is going to take place when it IS the ‘real thing’… but all the more reason to be as prepared as you can be… so that you can overcome that ‘adrenalin rush’, keep a clear head, and do exactly what you NEED to do ( like make clear, good radio calls ).
That’s why Marsh’s last transmission is still so mystifying.
It’s pretty hard to say there was any ‘panic’ in his (final) transmission at all… yet it STILL ended up a piss-poor piece of ‘communicating’ with no specific location information being given to the very people who needed to know.
OK now this is going to far.
Yarnellhillfireblog.com Elizabeth has just posted what WTKTT and I have been talking about over the communications of GM and B33.
She clams she contacted one of her unknown sources who gave her
the information. It sounds almost word for word what we have been talking about.
So she is using IM to create her own blog story interesting……………………
She may have a few readers, but interestingly, there has been only one comment to the site in 6 or 7 months. That is telling, in itself.
That ‘blog post’ itself is so full of inaccuracies it’s hard to even know where to start.
Bottom line is that ( whether that really is Elizabeth Nowicki commenting or not )… the commenter meets the classic definition of…
“It’s not what they don’t know that scares me… it’s what they know fer sure that just ain’t so”.
Mark Twain
Bottom line on that post is that it is totally based on trying to establish that John Burfiend could not possibly have been CHOOSING to IGNORE the transmissions because he simply ‘did not hear them’… and then goes on to iterate all the reasons WHY he ‘did not hear them’.
John Burfiend was, in fact, HEARING those transmissions.
He (clearly) said so himself in the Helmet-Cam audio… BEFORE he even made his call telling them to (basically)”Shut The Fuck Up”… and BEFORE Eric Marsh ever came on the radio to better ‘explain’ the situation.
It was so obvious that he was not responding to either the calls from help from Granite Mountain OR responding to that direct call to him from OPS1 Able about ‘that traffic’ that Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ felt the need to jump into the conversation on the direct Air-To-Air channel and TELL him people were trying to get him to respond.
Even then… after ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ called ‘Bravo 33’ directly to tell them people were trying to get them to respond to something… both French and Burfiend went about their business and were NOT responding.
It would still be another 60 seconds before they would actually ‘get involved’ and only because that is when OPS1 Todd Abel ORDERED them to ‘respond to those men’.
It’s all in the recordings.
No guesswork is needed.
Reply to calvin post on September 20, 2014 at 10:06 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> If Burfiend was telling Kevin that they were all alone
>> and within minutes of that, was stating that the
>> type 1′s (helicopters) were ordered back in.
>>
>> When were they ordered?
>>
>> Why were they ordered?
>>
>> If Burfiend doesn’t know what is going on, why did
>> they order the helicopters back?
Just one more set of ‘good questions’ that has always been laying on the table in plain sight… but no real answers (yet).
Actually… It was Thomas French ( handling Lead Plane duties ) and not Johh Burfiend who was telling VLAT 911 pilot Kevin that they were basically ‘all alone on the fire’ as he was bringing Kevin in from the SOUTH out of his holding pattern.
UPDATE: In the conversation below about how ‘busy’ things might have been ( or actually NOT have been ) in that cockpit in the deployment timeframe… I had pointed out that Thomas French actually told Kevin they were ‘alone on the fire’ PRIOR to the deployment traffic.
As it turns out… Thomas French was telling VLAT 910 Pilot Kevin they were basically ‘alone on the fire’ DURING the actual MAYDAY calls.
It happened at exactly 1640.34 ( 4:40.34 PM ), almost a full MINUTE or MINUTE and a HALF into the MAYDAY call sequence.
Thomas French seemed ‘oblivious’ to what was happening on the Air-To-Ground channel for that entire time… until after Eric Marsh himself had come onto the Air-To-Ground channel and confirmed to Burfiend what was really going on.
What follows is the exact place in the Air-To-Air channel traffic captures where French actually says that to VLAT 910 pilot Kevin.
Notice the (verified) TIME stamps.
This was all DURING the actual MAYDAY calls taking place on the A2G channel.
It happens at +9 minutes and 44 seconds into the Panebaker 20130630_1628_EP video.
IMPORTANT: I have ‘backed up’ this transcript a little from French’s actual declaration to VLAT pilot Kevin that they are ‘alone’ on the fire and I have started the transcript with that call from Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ during the MAYDAY sequence. Even the pilot of 5KA was trying to get either French or Burfiend to RESPOND to OPS1 Todd Abel. Abel had already called directly to B33 ( on the A2G channel ) asking them if they were ‘copying’ the MAYDAY traffic… but for 37 seconds… not only was Burfiend STILL not responding to the GM calls for help… he was also NOT responding to OPS1 Todd Abel. Helicopter 5KA must have noticed that ‘non-response’ ( in both cases ) from B33 and so he was just ‘jumping in’ on the Air-To-Air channel with a ‘heads up’ in case it was possible B33 hadn’t heard ANY of those transmissions.
French had been talking with Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ the ENTIRE time ‘Bravo 33’ had been working the fire that day. The two of them got along really well and had a great working relationship… but at NO time previously that day did Helicopter 5KA ever feel the need to make any similar kind of ‘heads up’ radio call like this to ‘Bravo 33’. This was different. This was IMPORTANT… and 5KA must have really felt that the only explanation for their being no direct responses to this MAYDAY traffic from either French or Burfiend is because they weren’t HEARING the traffic. That was not the case. French wasn’t hearing it… but Burfiend was hearing ALL of it. Burfiend had been CHOOSING not to respond. The pilot of 5KA didn’t know that.and was now just trying to be ‘helpful’.
Notice that even though Helicopter 5KA was jumping in on the A2A channel to tell French and Burfiend that OPS was ‘calling them’ and that ‘they seem to have something for you’… Thomas French completely ignores even that ‘heads up’ from Helicopter 5KA and just continues what he was doing.
————————————————————————————————-
+08:48 ( 1639.38 / 4:39.38 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Bravo three three… you’ve got Operations calling Air to Ground. Sounds like they got somethin’ for ya.
+08:54 ( 1639.44 / 4:39.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay Kevin… if you’ve still got me in sight… basically we wanna start here… and just kinda contour. I was at 49 at the start. 48 here… we’ll just bring it around level 4. If ya get to this… this point… just go straight towards the meadow here.
+09:08 ( 1639.58 / 4:39.58 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay… run it all the way out to the meadow if we’ve got enough?
+09:11 ( 1640.01 / 4:40.01 PM )
(B33 – French): You betcha… and I kinda started at three six zero on the heading and ended up at about three three five.
+09:19 ( 1640.09 / 4:40.09 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin) Very good… I’ve gotcha down now… I’ll letcha come out my right side.
+09:23 ( 1640.13 / 4:40.13 PM )
(B33 – French): Yep… that’s what I’ll do… and I’m gonna climb up to sixty five… I’m gonna give ya a nice long final and… uh… uh… we might have to do a little bit of adjusting on final… but expect your beginning drop to be about three three five or so.
+09:36 ( 1640.26 / 4:40.26 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin) Perfect.
*********************************************************************************
NOTE: The very next ‘Okay… uh…’ from French has him ‘taking a deep breath’ and it sounds very much like he may have just been informed of something… like what is going on with GM.
He then tells Kevin he may have to ‘dial it back’ and he may already be thinking he needs to SAVE some retardant… but he in no way stops what he is doing, at this point, even though the MAYDAY calls are actively taking place on the Air-To-Ground channel.
*******************************************************************************
+09:38 ( 1640.28 / 4:40.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… uh… I may dial it back a little bit… standby… keep it at coverage level 4.
+09:43 ( 1640.33 / 4:40.33 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay.
*********************************************************************************
NOTE: Here is where French tells Kevin they are basically ALONE ON THE FIRE at this point… which is actually +1 minute or perhaps +1 minute 30 seconds into the actual MAYDAY traffic taking place over on the other A2G channel. Thomas French is STILL not fully reacting to the ’emergency’ and is just ‘going about his business’ lining up the same drop he was working on BEFORE the MAYDAY traffic hit the A2G channel…
*********************************************************************************
+09:44 ( 1640.34 / 4:40.34 PM )
(B33 – French): And you’ve got… we’re kind of alone on the fire now… you just got a nice gentle right turn out… I’ll be a hard right… I’m comin’ up on your four o’clock.
+09:52 ( 1640.42 / 4:40.42 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Very good. I’m just gonna keep this shallow turn ( so we’ll see you ).
——————————————————————–
We still don’t really fully know what conversations Burfiend was having in that same timeframe leadiing up to the first MAYDAY call ( other than that snippet of him reporting to someone at the START of the Helmet Cam ).
It is just not possible to fully determine that just based on those piss-poor SAIT interview notes… and ( as far as we know? ) the Air-To-Ground traffic was not being recorded that day like the the Air-To-Air channel was.
SIDENOTE: I still find it pretty hard to believe that Panebaker and his crew would have actually taken the time to dedicate a recording to the Air-To-Air channel by actually plugging a portable radio set to the A2A channel into the ‘audio in’ jack a camera… but would not have ALSO done a similar thing to record ALL the Air-To-Ground traffic as well. I would think if you are getting paid to do a comprehensive ‘Air Support Study’ like they were… it would be just as important to capture the Air-To-Ground traffic for later ‘study’ and ‘evaluation’ as it would be to capture the Air-To-Air traffic. It would not surprise me at all to discover that there really always HAVE been recordings of the Air-To-Ground traffic that afternoon done by either Panebaker and his ‘study group’… or by AZ Air Operations themselves… but they they have been ( and still are ) being kept OUT of the ‘evidence record’.
There has always been an email in the ADOSH material where Marshall Krotenberg is ‘thanking’ someone ( whose name on the email has been redacted ) for the ‘RADIO CD’ which they just received. It’s never been clear that that ‘RADIO CD’ really was. Was it just a CD with the known Panebaker Air-To-Air videos on it… or was it something ‘else’ with even MORE radio channel ‘captures’ on it?
I don’t know why ADOSH themselves wouldn’t have then used it in their reports to help clear up some things OR would have been reluctant to release that ‘RADIO CD’ later… but such is the nature of a ‘mystery’. The reason you don’t know is because is you don’t know (yet).
I digress.
Back to calvin’s actual QUESTION(S)…
>> calvin said…
>>
>> If Burfiend was telling Kevin that they were all alone
>> and within minutes of that, was stating that the
>> type 1′s (helicopters) were ordered back in.
>>
>> When were they ordered?
That’s always been a VERY good question.
There is no doubt that, at 1 minute and 17 seconds into the ‘Helmet Cam’ video ( and BEFORE Eric Marsh ever appears on the A2G channel ) we hear John Burfiend finally answering OPS1 Todd Abel and without even having ever responded to Granite Mountain’s calls.. that he now (supposedly) has the ‘Type 1 helicopters’ ALREADY ordered back in.
Notice also that this is proof that Burfiend KNOWS Abel had already asked him 37 seconds earlier if he was ‘copying the traffic’… but Burfiend had not responded to Abel at that time. All Abel does here is a ‘callout’ to B33 but Burfiend seems to know he had been ignoring Abel’s question from 37 seconds ago and now he (finally) answers it with the first sentence of THIS response…
——————————————————————————————
+01:15
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations on Air-To-Ground.
+01:17
(B33 – John Burfiend): Okay, I was copying a little bit of that, uh conversation uh,
on Air-To-Ground. We’re, we’ll do the best we can. We got the type 1 helicopters
ordered back in. Uh, we’ll see what we can do.
——————————————————————————————-
So even BEFORE Eric Marsh himself comes on and ‘explains’ the situation… John Burfiend seems to be telling OPS1 Abel he is FULLY aware of what is happening and that he has ALREADY ordered the ‘Type 1 Helicopters’ back in.
>> Why were they ordered?
>>
>> If Burfiend doesn’t know what is going on, why did
>> they order the helicopters back?
According to the timing of his statement to Abel… he really HAD to have known.
He tells Abel he has them ‘ordered back in’ BEFORE he had even lifted a finger to respond to the men and BEFORE Eric Marsh even comes on the A2G channel for that final ‘explanation’ that they really, truly were ‘entrapped’ and ‘deploying shelters’.
But here is where it gets REALLY complicated.
Here is another ‘news flash’ that is contained in the actual Air-To-Air channel captures.
At the same moment Burfiend is telliing OPS1 Abel that they have the ‘Type 1 helicopters’ ordered BACK in… there is clear traffic on the A2A channel that has Thomas French is actually RELEASING one of the Type 1 Helicopters from the fire ( at that exact moment ).
I really don’t know how else to show the proof of this other than to just dump that entire Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture sequence that covers the entire sequence from just before the start of the MAYDAY traffic… through the entire ‘Helmet-Cam’ sequence captured in the OTHER video taken by Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd.
The moment where these videos actually ‘sync-up’ is when we hear the pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ actually seeming to notice that neither French nor Burfiend are RESPONDING to either GM’s calls for help OR to OPS1 Todd Abel’s calls to them about whether they are ‘copying’ the traffic.
That moment when the 5KA pilot is trying to give French and Burfiend the ‘heads up’ that OPS1 Abel is calling them and ‘has something for them’ had to have taken place after that moment in the Helmet Cam when OPS1 Todd Abel did, in fact, call Burfiend to ask him if the was copying the MAYDAY traffic… and Burfiend doesn’t even respond to OPS1 Abel for at least 37 seconds.
I would guess that the pilot of ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ probably gave French and Burfiend about 10 seconds to respond to OPS1 Todd Abel’s direct call to them… and when neither of them was doing that… that is when he decided to ‘jump’ onto the A2A channel and TELL them OPS1 was ‘calling them’ on the off chance that the reason they seemed to not be responding is because they hadn’t heard the call from OPS1.
So here is the COMPLETE Air-To-Air channel capture that covers the same timeframe as the Helmet-Cam itself ( but starting 3 minutes or so BEFORE that ).
It proves that Thomas French was basically either totally unaware of the A2G MAYDAY traffic all the way up until AFTER Eric Marsh made his call to Burfiend… OR…. French WAS aware of all of it but just kept going about his business, anyway, until he was FORCED to pay attention.
———————————————————————————————————-
+05:25 ( 1636.15 / 4:36.15 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Five Kilo Alpha’s (on) short final… landing just short of that helibase… in the green circle here.
+05:30 ( 1636.20 / 4:36.20 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay copy that… are you gonna drop your bucket and have to lift back somewhere else?
+05:34 ( 1636.24 / 4:36.24 PM )
(5KA): Yea… I’ll have to drop the bucket and then I’ll head for Wickenburg for fuel.
+05:38 ( 1636.28 / 4:36.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Oh… okay… gotcha… okay… give me a call… ah… ready to lift.
+05:43 ( 1636.33 / 4:36.33 PM )
(5KA): Will do.
+05:46 ( 1636.36 / 4:36.36 PM )
(B33 – French): Tanker nine one zero… you are cleared in… come on in at… six thousand five hundred with nine eight zero.
+05:56 ( 1636.46 / 4:36.46 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’ve got a project for you.
+06:01 ( 1636.51 / 4:36.51 PM )
(B33 – French): It’s all good, though.
+06:05 ( 1636.55 / 4:36.55 PM )
(B33 – French): That’s affirmative… uh… on the east side… uh… can’t really get in where we really need it we’ll be a little bit further to the north… there’s just a lot of open flame… that’s your target.
+06:15 ( 1637.05 / 4:37.05 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): (Transmission breaks up) ?? Uh… ?? smoke ??
+06:19 ( 1637.09 / 4:37.09 PM )
(B33 – French): If you need more altitude let me know… you should be okay at sixty five, only other aircraft I’ve seen is a media ship at… uh… niner-thousand five hundred.
+06:35 ( 1637.25 / 4:37.25 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): (Transmission breaks up) How far you want (up) me to… ?? towards the white smoke… or… ?? (black?) smoke?
+06:40 ( 1637.30 / 4:37.30 PM )
(B33 – French): Kind of in the middle.
+06:41 ( 1637.31 / 4:37.31 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay.
( 33 SECOND PAUSE – NO RADIO TRAFFIC )
+07:13 ( 1638.03 / 4:38.03 PM )
(5KA): Five Kilo Alpha’s ready to lift for Wickenburg.
+07:16 ( 1638.06 / 4:38.06 PM )
(B33 – French): You’re clear to lift, Five Kilo Alpha. Hey… can you… uh… just fly direct west and then go around the west side of the fire?
+07:22 ( 1638.12 / 4:38.12 PM )
(5KA): I sure can. Here we go.
+07:24 ( 1638.14 / 4:38.14 PM )
(B33 – French): Yea… that would really help me out. You’re cleared… uh… west departure back to Wickenburg… and hey… thanks for all the good work… we’ll see ya in ( bit ).
+07:30 ( 1638.20 / 4:38.20 PM )
(5KA): You bet.
( 13 SECOND PAUSE – NO RADIO TRAFFIC )
+07:43 ( 1638.33 / 4:38.33 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yea… nine one zero… I’m just comin’ up over the ridge seein’ all the open flame.
+07:47 ( 1638.37 / 4:38.37 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay, copy that. I’m a little bit out of position… but… I’ll try to sneak in front of ya… I’m actually at your… oh… about… one o’clock.
+07:55 ( 1638.45 / 4:38.45 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay… and we’re lookin’…
( 8 SECOND PAUSE – NO RADIO TRAFFIC )
+08:03 ( 1638.53 / 4:38.53 PM )
(B33 – French): And I’m at… uh… six thousand, Kevin, kinda low out your one o’clock moving twelve.
+08:10 ( 1639.00 / 4:39.00 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Yea… I got a beacon there… yea… I got your lights.
*****************************************************************************************
START OF MAYDAY TRAFFIC ON AIR-TO-GROUND CHANNEL
*****************************************************************************************
It is now exactly 1639… and this is the moment ( give or take 15
seconds ) when Jesse Steed made his first MAYDAY call on
the A2G channel being monitored by Burfiend.
*****************************************************************************************
+08:13 ( 1639.03 / 4:39.03 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay copy that… It… ya know… it’s gonna be a little rough for the show me ‘cus I’ve actually gotta angle back left… I do have you in sight. Basically that… that open flame and the heavy fuel out your left si… correct… yea… your left side… that’s what we’re gonna hit. I’ll try to turn this into a show me. Ya still got me?
+08:29 ( 1639.19 / 4:39.19 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I do and I’ll try to keep ya… I may end up going back a one-eighty but, uh… yea… I’ll keep ya in sight.
+08:34 ( 1639.24 / 4:39.24 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay copy that… so… let’s do what we wanna do. There’s a little bit of a… kinda of fuel break that snakes through here… that’s gonna be your start point… I’m rollin’ in on short final now.
+08:44 ( 1639.34 / 4:39.34 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin) Yea… I still got ya there.
***************************************************************************************
FIVE KILO ALPHA TRIES TO TELL FRENCH OPS IS CALLING
***************************************************************************************
We are now almost 40 seconds into the MAYDAY sequence.
Neither Burfiend nor French is even reacting to the calls yet.
OPS1 Todd Abel has ALREADY called direct to ‘Bravo 33’ to
ask them if they are ‘copying’ the MAYDAYS.
Neither Burfiend nor French has even responded to OPS1’s
calls and so the pilot of Helicopter 5KA seems to think they
might not have even HEARD OPS1’s call… so he now
JUMPS onto the Air-To-Air channel to tell Thomas French
that OPS1 is calling him… in case he didn’t know.
Burfiend even ignores 5KA’s ‘heads up’ and just goes right
on doing what he was doing like nothing is happening.
***************************************************************************************
+08:48 ( 1639.38 / 4:39.38 PM )
(Helicopter 5KA): Bravo three three… you’ve got Operations calling Air to Ground. Sounds like they got somethin’ for ya.
+08:54 ( 1639.44 / 4:39.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay Kevin… if you’ve still got me in sight… basically we wanna start here… and just kinda contour. I was at 49 at the start. 48 here… we’ll just bring it around level 4. If ya get to this… this point… just go straight towards the meadow here.
+09:08 ( 1639.58 / 4:39.58 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay… run it all the way out to the meadow if we’ve got enough?
+09:11 ( 1640.01 / 4:40.01 PM )
(B33 – French): You betcha… and I kinda started at three six zero on the heading and ended up at about three three five.
+09:19 ( 1640.09 / 4:40.09 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin) Very good… I’ve gotcha down now… I’ll letcha come out my right side.
+09:23 ( 1640.13 / 4:40.13 PM )
(B33 – French): Yep… that’s what I’ll do… and I’m gonna climb up to sixty five… I’m gonna give ya a nice long final and… uh… uh… we might have to do a little bit of adjusting on final… but expect your beginning drop to be about three three five or so.
+09:36 ( 1640.26 / 4:40.26 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin) Perfect.
***************************************************************************************
NOTE: We are now more than 1 and one-half minutes into the
actual MAYDAY calls taking place over on the A2G channel.
It is a full 88 seconds since 1639.
The very next ‘Okay… uh…’ from French has him ‘taking a
breath’ and it sounds like, only now, he may be beginning to be
informed of something ( by Burfiend? )… like what is going on with
Granite Mountain. He then tells Kevin he may have to ‘dial it back’
and he may already be thinking he needs to SAVE some
retardant… but he in no way stops what he is doing, at this point.
He STILL just continues to do what he was doing even BEFORE
the MAYDAY calls began. This is now where he actually tells
VLAT 910 Pilot Kevin they are basically ‘alone on the fire’ so
that means there was NOT some ‘crazy’ amount of A2A
traffic going on during this time. It was just ‘them’ still trying
to work out this ‘drop’ like they were before the MAYDAY
calls even started some 88 seconds ago.
***************************************************************************************
+09:38 ( 1640.28 / 4:40.28 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… uh… I may dial it back a little bit… standby… keep it at coverage level 4.
+09:43 ( 1640.33 / 4:40.33 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Okay.
+09:44 ( 1640.34 / 4:40.34 PM )
(B33 – French): And you’ve got… we’re kind of alone on the fire now… you just got a nice gentle right turn out… I’ll be a hard right… I’m comin’ up on your four o’clock.
+09:52 ( 1640.42 / 4:40.42 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Very good. I’m just gonna keep this shallow turn ( so we’ll see you ).
**********************************************************************************
FRENCH LETS A TYPE 1 HELICOPTER LEAVE YARNELL
**********************************************************************************
All of sudden… Helicopter 5HD ( Five Hotel Delta ) calls ‘Bravo 33’ just to tell them they are LEAVING. Helicopter 5HD is actually NOT listed anywhere in the ‘Aviation Resources’ document that was released as part of the SAIT FOIA/FOL requests.
The only Helicopters listed in that ‘L- Aviation – no redactions’ PDF file in that SAIT FOIA/FOIL release ( on page 1 of 26 pages ) are as follows…
Aircraft Flying over Yarnell Fire on 6/30/13
Helicopters, Type, Assigned Time
243AC, T1, 1303
164AC, HT, 1036
194AC, T1, 1021
66HJ, T2, 1141
N71HM, T3, 0925
N640MA, T3, 1152
215KA, T2, 0816
Helicopter 5KA (Five Kilo Alpha) IS mentioned in the same document and its details are…
Call Sign: 5KA
Tail Number: N215KA
Model: B-212 HP
Type: 2
Home Dispatch: ID-PAC
EU or CWN: EU
Status: C
Location: T
Current Dispatch: NM-SWC
Unit: A3S
Incident: Yarnell Hill
Thomas French in B33 almost seems COMPLETELY ‘confused’ by this call from ‘Five Hotel Delta’ about them being ‘done for the day’ and LEAVING Yarnell now ( even though this is in the absolute MIDDLE of the MAYDAY traffic and you would think that 5HD pilot would be hearing that traffic just like chopper 5KA was ).
There has been NO prior radio traffic between French and this 5HD chopper at any time prior to this… and French didn’t even seem to be aware WHO this was or that they had even been working the fire.
French is caught off guard by this call and then can’t even get the call-sign right in his response…
French just laughs, and then says GOODBYE and lets this Type 1 Helicopter LEAVE.
Helicopter 5HD then says “Thank you… and GOOD NIGHT”.
This is now AFTER John Burfiend has already told OPS1 Abel that they are ‘bringing the Type 1 Helos back in’.
Burfiend seems to think they are bringing Type 1 helos back to Yarnell… and here is French letting one LEAVE without ( it would seem ) even the slightest bit of knowledge of what Burfiend had told OPS1 Abel.
**********************************************************************************
+09:58 ( 1640.48 / 4:40.48 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Bravo three three… this is Five Hotel Delta.
+10:00 ( 1640.50 / 4:40.50 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead sir.
+10:02 ( 1640.52 / 4:40.52 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Yes sir. Uh… we’re complete. We’re heading back to Scottsdale. Thank you very much… uh… (got a little) work down there… and… ah… I’ll see ya tomorrow morning.
+10:10 ( 1641.00 / 4:41.00 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay… ah… Delta… uh… one five hel… (French laughs at his own mess-up on the call sign) Oh… Delta… uh… thanks a lot… appreciate the… uh… good como.
+10:17 ( 1641.07 / 4:41.07 PM )
(Helicopter 5HD): Thank you sir. Good night.
**********************************************************************************
BURFIEND FINALLY REALIZES THERE IS A PROBLEM
**********************************************************************************
We are now TWO MINUTES and SEVEN SECONDS past
1639 and the start of the MAYDAY traffic.
John Burfiend told OPS1 Todd Abel they were bringing
the ‘Type 1 Helos back in’ more than 60 seconds ago…
but Thomas French has just now let one of the ‘Type 1 helos’
LEAVE Yarnell.
This is now the moment when (B33 – French) finally realizes
that Granite Mountain is in serious trouble… and the
situation/plan changes. He calls ‘Kevin’ in DC10 VLAT 910 to
tell him this, cancel the drop they were just about to do…
and he asks him (Kevin) to go into a holding pattern while
they try to locate Granite Mountain.
**********************************************************************************
+10:19 ( 1641.09 / 4:41.09 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh… Kevin… uh… we got… situation’s changed and we got some folks in trouble and I don’t know where they’re at yet… uh… just… uh… standby.
+10:26 ( 1641.16 / 4:41.16 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): Roger. I’ll just stay out here to the north ( and the east ).
+10:31 ( 1641.21 / 4:41.21 PM )
(B33 – French): Looks like we may have a deployment in progress so… uh… dial me up a level six for now and I don’t know what the… ah… drop sequence is gonna be yet.
+10:39 ( 1641.29 / 4:41.29 PM )
(DC10 VLAT 910 – Kevin): I’m just gonna tag in behind ya and follow ya, then.
( 18 SECOND PAUSE – NO AIR-TO-AIR CHANNEL RADIO TRAFFIC )
**********************************************************************************
FRENCH TELLS A CHOPPER ( 5HD? ) TO COME BACK
**********************************************************************************
NOTE: We can’t hear who French is talking TO for the next
callout but this very next ‘Come on back’ from French is most
probably a ‘recall’ order for Helicopter Five Hotel Delta (5HD)
which he just said goodbye a moment ago. Helicopter 5HD
probably heard what he just said to Kevin and was now
asking French if he wanted them to ‘come back’ and French
said ‘Yes’ and then also told them to ‘go get some water’.
NOTE: There is also now (finally) a great sense of
URGENCY in French’s voice. He is speaking VERY
quickly and efficiently now.
**********************************************************************************
+10:57 ( 1641.47 / 4:41.47 PM )
(B33 – French): Come on back.
+11:00 ( 1641.50 / 4:41.50 PM )
(B33 – French): Go get some water.
+11:06 ( 1641.56 / 4:41.56 PM )
(B33 – French): Affirmative.
+11:08 ( 1641.58 / 4:41.58 PM )
(B33 – French): I’m up at six thousand and above.
************************************************************************
HELITANKER/ SKYCRANE N243AC
************************************************************************
Now here comes Helitanker/Skycrane 749 reporting to French
that they are (apparently) about 8 miles away and returning to Yarnell.
This is the same Orange ‘Skycrane’ that almost crashed into the
VLAT earlier that afternoon.
There is, in fact, an entry for 749 in the ‘L- Aviation Resources’
document that was released with the SAIT FOIA/FOIL material.
On page 21 of that document…
Call Sign: HT-749
Tail Number: N243AC
Model: S-64
Type: 1
Home Dispatch: CO-GJC
EU or CWN: EU
Status: C
Location: PRC
Current Dispatch: AZ-ADC
Unit: A1S
Incident: Yarnell Hill
This is the same SKYCRANE that almost crashed into the VLAT earlier that afternoon.
So this Skycrane DOES have an entry in the ‘L- Aviation Resources’ document
but it is NOT listed in the quick ‘summary’ at the top of the document as
one of the Helicopters that was in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
************************************************************************
+11:16 ( 1642.06 / 4:42.06 PM )
(Helitanker/Skycrane 749): Air Attack… Helitanker Seven Four Nine.
+11:17 ( 1642.07 / 4:42.07 PM )
(B33 – French): Seven Four Nine… go.
+11:19 ( 1642.09 / 4:42.09 PM )
(Helitanker/Skycrane 749): (Transmission breaks up in recording) Yea… we’re ?? ( 8 ) miles
out… and… uh… ??
+11:23 ( 1642.13 / 4:42.13 PM )
(B33 – French): You’re clear direct to your dip. Call me at.. uh… five miles.
+11:26 ( 1642.16 / 4:42.16 PM )
(Helitanker/Skycrane 749): Copy that.
+11:27 ( 1642.17 / 4:42.17 PM )
(B33 – French): What direction ya comin’ in from?
+11:29 ( 1642.19 / 4:42.19 PM )
(Helitanker/Skycrane 749): (North?)
+11:30 ( 1642.20 / 4:42.20 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy.
( 52 SECOND PAUSE – NO OTHER AIR-TO-AIR RADIO TRAFFIC RECORDED )
NOTE: No other Air-To-Air channel radio communications are heard in this video during the 52 seconds left before the video ends. It is still not known if this was some EDITING or TRUNCATING of this video or whether the Panebaker Air Study Group setup really just ‘stopped’ recording any Air-To-Air traffic for the final 52 seconds of this video.
It seems odd that, given the circumstances, there would NOT have been any more A2A traffic similar to what we were just hearing for the next 52 seconds ( and even after that ).
+12:23 VIDEO ENDS
VIDEO 20160630_1643 ENDS AT 1643.13 ( 4:43.13 PM )
———————————————————————————————————-
** SUMMARY
Calvin… I’m afraid this doesn’t really ANSWER your questions about WHEN and WHY Burfiend would have ‘ordered the Type 1 Helos’ back in… but it DOES prove that Thomas French, sitting right beside him, seemed totally oblivious to that sort of ‘need’ since even a full MINUTE after Burfiend told OPS1 they had ‘ordered the Type 1 Helos back in’… French was still letting at least 1 ‘Type 1 Helo’ actually LEAVE the fire.
I suppose it is possible that what Burfiend really meant when he told OPS1 Able that they had ‘ordered the Type 1 Helos back in’ is that Burfiend himself was still only then WAKING UP to the situation and he KNEW those Helos were going to be coming into play… but he was still basically bullshitting OPS1 Abel about they having ALREADY ‘ordered them back in’.
Even when Burfiend said that OPS1 Abel… the evidence seems to show that the man sitting exactly to his left in the same airplane ( Thomas French ) was still totally oblivious to what Burfiend was hearing over on the A2G channel and also still totally unaware that every Type 1 Helicopter that was ALREADY there was going to be needed and he should not be ‘letting them go’… like he did with ‘Five Hotel Delta’. like he did even as late as 1641 ( 3:41 PM ).
I’m afraid only John Burfiend himself ( or his trainee Clint Cross ) can fully explain WHAT they knew, WHEN they knew it, and WHY they seemed to already know what was happening even BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY ever hit that A2G channel.
Correction for the post above.
There was a bad TYPO in one of the NOTE sections above inside that transcript of the Air-To-Air channel traffic taking place DURING the ‘MAYDAY’ Helmet-Cam timeframe.
I typed ‘Burfiend’ in a spot where it should have been ‘French’.
We still do NOT know exactly when John Burfiend fully realized there was an EMERGENCY on the ground. That has been part of the ongoing discussion. As Calvin has pointed out… there is actually evidence that Burfiend knew of GM’s predicament ( and their general location? ) even BEFORE Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY ever hit the radio. It all depends WHO Burfiend was really talking to there at the start of the Helmet-Cam video itself and WHAT that conversation was really all about.
The Air-To-Air transcript ONLY indicates what Thomas French knew… and when he might have known it.
So that NOTE section in the transcript above SHOULD have read like this…
***********************************************************************************
FRENCH FINALLY REALIZES THERE IS A PROBLEM
***********************************************************************************
We are now TWO MINUTES and SEVEN SECONDS past
1639 and the start of the MAYDAY traffic.
John Burfiend told OPS1 Todd Abel they were bringing
the ‘Type 1 Helos back in’ more than 60 seconds ago…
but Thomas French has just now let one of the ‘Type 1 helos’
LEAVE Yarnell.
This is now the moment when Thomas French ( in B33 ) seems
to have finally realized that Granite Mountain is in serious trouble…
and the situation/plan changes. He calls ‘Kevin’ in DC10 VLAT 910 to
tell him this, cancel the drop they were just about to do…
and he asks him (Kevin) to go into a holding pattern while
they try to locate Granite Mountain.
**********************************************************************************
+10:19 ( 1641.09 / 4:41.09 PM )
(B33 – French): Hey… uh… Kevin… uh… we got… situation’s changed and we got some folks in trouble and I don’t know where they’re at yet… uh… just… uh… standby.
Is it possible that 5HD was actually the news aircraft that was in the Michelle lee tweeted photo?
Also, Is it possible that the request to go get some water was directed to 215KA?
Reply to calvin post on September 23, 2014 at 7:00 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Is it possible that 5HD was actually the news aircraft that
>> was in the Michelle lee tweeted photo?
BINGO. Once again, calvin… you are a steely-eyed rocket man.
You are EXACTLY right.
That is EXACTLY who we hear saying ‘Goodbye’ to Thomas French in Bravo 33 DURING the actual MAYDAY sequence.
The actual ‘N’ Tail number of the ABC15 (KNXV) ‘Air 15′ News chooper that was over the fire that day was N915HD.
Call sign must have been ‘Five Hotel Delta’, like we hear in the radio captures.
A close-up photo of that actual Black/Yellow/Orage/White ABC15 ‘Air 15′ chopper complete with ABC15 logo, N915HD tail number, and front camera mount is here…
http://www.airport-data.com/aircraft/photo/000327456.html
However… I still don’t think it is possible that that is the helicopter seen a such a low altitude in the Michelle Lee photo.
As the Panebaker transcript below shows… when the ABC15 ‘Air 15′ chopper arrived on the fire it was assigned an altitude of 9,500 feet, way ABOVE everything else working the fire.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> Also, Is it possible that the request to go get some water
>> was directed to 215KA?
See a much longer response to all of this that I just posted as a new parent comment up above.
I don’t think so.
REASON: Helcopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ had already left the Yarnell area headed to Wickenburg to refuel. As the Panebaker 1716 video transcript posted above in the longer post shows… it wasn’t until 1648 that 5KA is telliing French they only have about 20 minutes of fuel left… but they will do a ‘180’ and come back, anyway.
French is then cautioning them about ‘getting into trouble’ themselves with their fuel situation but 5KA says they will ‘promise to watch out’.
It is also at that moment ( 1648 ) that the pilot of 5KA then tells French that he believes he JUST heard ‘Division Alpha’ trying to call him ( at 1648 ) on the Air-To-Ground Channel.
If that is true… that means Eric Marsh was still alive as late as 1648.26… a good EIGHT and ONE/HALF minutes after the first 1639 MAYDAY call and a full SIX and ONE/HALF minutes after he had told B33 they were ‘deploying’.
Reply to John post on September 17, 2014 at 8:12 am
>> John said…
>>
>> Maybe I am missing something (and please tell me if I am off base) but
>> what has irked me for quite some time are the camera(s) at the Boulder
>> Springs Ranch. Obviously we have the Helm’s camera block footage
>> posted on this site. That camera is positioned to view the main entrance
>> of the ranch. It catches the oncoming fire but “turns off” right when the
>> fire hits. Was this due to the power outage or just left out?
The SAIR itself says the power at the Boulder Springs Ranch went out at 1653 ( 4:53 PM )… at least a full TEN minutes AFTER the men were burned over 640 yards west of there.
If the ‘missing parts’ of even just the gate camera are (supposedly) because that is when the fire hit the compound and the electricity failed… then something is either seriously wrong with that time report in the SAIR or something is seriously wrong with the SAIT’s fire progression charts.
There has always been what appears to be a GENERATOR shed there on the northern side of that compound, in the rocks, and it also appears to have remained totally undamaged by the fire. ( See ADOSH’s post-fire Ranch photos ).
But even if they had lost their own generator ( doesn’t appear to have happened but stick with me )… then the electricity would have REMAINED off and if the footage from that camera ‘resumes’ then it’s either because it had its own onboard power supply or the generator came back on.
If the camera DID have its own onboard power supply and that is why we see the footage ‘resuming’… they why would there have been anything missing at all? Anything that operates off its own power supply would not have ‘burped’ like that even if the recharging source fails. It would have continued to operate normally, with no interruption, until its own power source failed.
Page 70 of the SAIR ( inside their ‘timeline of events’ section )…
———————————————————————-
1653 Electricity goes off at Boulder Springs Ranch
———————————————————————-
So HOW did the authors of the SAIR know THAT?
Where are the ‘interview notes’ that show us them learning that… and might have had OTHER testimony in it… perhaps some about the ‘cameras’ on their property?
Speaking of ‘what is missing’….
There is also THIS…
Page 35 of the SAIR…
—————————————–
The fire reaches the Glen Ilah community at the south end of Yarnell during Granite Mountain IHC’s communications with ASM2. The owner of the Boulder Springs Ranch, on the town’s west edge, happens to go outside to check on her dog. As she gets to the door, she realizes the fire has advanced significantly toward her house. She and her husband run outside, put all of their livestock into the barn, and then return to their house just as the fire sweeps over their property.
—————————————–
This testimony is obviously from DJ Helm herself, and not from Lee Helm.
The SAIT obviously interviewed HER ( and we can assume HIM as well ).
So where are their NOTES from this interview that allowed them to make this insertion into their official report on the fire?
There was NO INTERVIEW documentation for either of them included in the FOIA / FOIL release of all the documentation Arizona Forestry had related to their investigation.
They can’t pull that claim on this that “documentation that remained unused in the SAIR report was not considered eligible for the FOIA release”.
They OBVIOUSLY used their interview notes / transcript / recording for the Helms’ interview in their official report… and they also made no attempt to hide their identities. They are both credited by name at the end of the report.
So WHERE are those FULL interview notes / transcripts / recordings that might tell us what ELSE the Helms’ might have said or testified to?
Also… the SAIT ended that paragraph in the SAIR about the Helms with this…
Again… page 35 of the SAIR…
————————————-
The owners, their animals, and their property are unharmed
thanks to fire-resistant construction and defensible space
around their buildings.
————————————-
Forget the fact that this just sounds like a ‘defensible space’ commercial…
the statements are NOT TRUE.
The ADOSH post-fire pictures that THEY took of the Helms’ ranch show plenty of damage around the outscirts of the property including at least one outbuilding totally burned to the ground along with one or two ‘wagons’ that were only 30 or 40 feet from the corner of the barn and well inside the perimeter of the compound.
The Helms’ are also part of the lawsuits against Arizona Forestry and Yavapai County ( along with scores of other residents ) seeking damages for the incompetence and negligence that was fully displayed that entire weekend.
The Helms’ are claiming a minimum of 7 million dollars in damages.
Both of these things ( the actual photos and the lawsuit ) prove that the SAIR statement saying “The owners, their animals, and their property are unharmed” is FALSE.
>> John also said…
>>
>> Also, this camera at the ranch is of very high quality and designed to
>> have power back up. Why don’t we see complete footage?
See above. Either the reported loss of electricity didn’t happen at the time the SAIR itself says it did… or the reason things are ‘missing’ from that footage is because they were ‘edited out’.
>> John also said…
>>
>> Interestingly, this main entrance to the ranch isn’t the only entrance/exit.
>> There is also a decent sized pathway extending from the north side of
>> the ranch that wraps around east back to the Boulder Springs Trail.
>> I would find it highly improbable the Helms did not have a camera
>> monitoring (that) entrance as well which would have a perfect view
>> of the box canyon.
Agree. It wouldn’t make any sense to NOT have one.
Obviously money was not that big of an issue for the Helms’… especially when it came to protecting their property and their animals.
To be trusting in security cameras at all and then NOT have one covering the most likely part of the compound that would be subject to theft would just be plain stupid.
I don’t think Lee and DJ Helm were that ( or any ) kind of ‘stupid’.
>> John also said…
>>
>> If you look at some other photos of the ranch on this site, there are definitely
>> protrusions coming from other corners of the buildings that are likely cameras.
Yes. No doubt.
Perhaps the most obvious example is that mysterious little ‘black box’ mounted just under the roof overhang at the northwest corner of the residence itself. ( Actually… it’s on the northwest corner of the garage itself which is ATTACHED to the residence ).
It is NOT a ‘light fixture’.
If it is a camera ( and it certainly looks like one )… then it is ‘covering’ the WEST side of the property, along the barn, and looking out towards that other road that enters the property from the northwest ( exactly as it should ). Depending on the lens and focal range… it MIGHT actually be showing a lot of the interior of the box canyon itself. It’s facing the right way.
Perhaps the best picture(s) of this little ‘black box’ mounted there on the corner of the residence would be the photos of the residence in the following ADOSH folder…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AAD_bLcX2_Ze6Pz5VSzGYBnGa/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/Photos%20and%20Video/ADOSH%207-16%20photos%20w%20GPS?dl=0
The following two photos probably show it the best…
IMGP0232 and IMGP0233
ALSO in the same “What is missing?” category in relation to Lee and DJ Helm…
Mike Dudley said the following during his speech to that roomful of Utah firefighters on June 20, 2014…
—————————————-
Mike Dudley: The Yarnell Ranch… or.. the Boulder Creek Ranch, that we call it… that was a place that was put in and the owners of that ranch had the capability to defend it and build it to a standard that they knew they would never have to worry about leaving it… and they were in place when the fire ran all the way around them… and the only problem they ran into… they lost one air-conditioning unit off of a… uh… warehouse. That’s it. They were totally fine.
She even took a picture from her patio of the whole hillside behind her completely lit up…
at one time.
—————————————-
Really?
So DJ Helm even stepped out onto her frickin’ PATIO and was taking pictures?
WHERE are THOSE pictures, Mr. Dudley?
Did she only take ONE picture ‘from her patio’ that day?
Is it possible she took some OTHER pictures… like what might have been happening due WEST of her out in that box canyon?
Even if she wasn’t outside at the time of the burnover out in the canyon… is it possible she was taking pictures from INSIDE the house… and (perhaps) one looking WEST?
If you add it all up now… there is TONS of evidence that is ( and always has been ) being WITHHELD by Arizona Forestry and the contractors they hired to do that SAIR thing.
**
** DID JOHN BURFIEND IN BRAVO 33 EVER APPEAR IN ANY
** AIR-TO-AIR RADIO CHANNEL TRAFFIC?
This is actually a continuation of the thread down below that was discussing exactly what Thomas French and John Burfiend might have been doing that day ( in Bravo 33 ) to handle their ‘double duty’ assignment of being both ‘Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ after Rory Collins ( AA ) abruptly left Yarnell at 3:58 PM that afternoon.
Down below… I had said that the EVIDENCE shows that John Burfiend himself never participated in ANY of the Air-To-Air channel traffic at all following Collins’ departure… and that it seemed Burfiend was the one who was tasked with a primary responsibility of only monitoring the Air-To-Ground traffic while Thomas French was handling ALL of the Air-To-Air channel conversations.
The EVIDENCE still points to that… but I went back and checked all the transcripts for all of the Panebaker Air-To-Air radio channel captures from that day and I DID actually find just ONE place where we actually hear John Burfiend’s voice on the Air-To-Air frequency.
It happened just for brief moment just as ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins called Bravo 33 to basically say GOODBYE and tell them he was NOW departing Yarnell airspace ( at 3:58 PM ).
Just before Collins signed off and left… we actually hear John Burfiend’s voice appear on the Air-To-Air radio channel ( for this one-and-only time that day ) with one final ‘question’ for departing Air Attack Rory Collins.
John Burfiend just wanted to verify WHO Collins had been talking to on the GROUND as part of his ‘Air Attack’ duties that day. Was it OPS?
Collins says it was OPS ‘for the most part’ but also tells Burfiend he was pretty sure that OPS was on the NORTH end of the fire and didn’t know much about anything going on down on the SOUTH end. Collins had already told both French and Burfiend a few minutes earlier that his ‘ground contact’ on the SOUTH side of the fire had been mostly DIVSA ( Eric Marsh ).
Then there is a short discussion between Burfiend and Collins about where to now start reloading the SEATS… since Wickenburg was out of retardant… and that is the END of this short exchange.
Rory Collins then leaves Yarnell airspace… and neither he nor John Burfiend in Bravo 33 is ever heard again ( for the rest of the day ) speaking on the Air-To-Air channel.
From this point on… ONLY Thomas French is ever heard speaking on the Air-To-Air channel and handling both ‘Lead Plane’ duties AND the A2A channel part of being “Air Attack” such as monitoring all air traffic that is inbound or outbound from the Yarnell area.
John Burfiend appears to have then been simply handling ALL the ‘Air-To-Ground’ traffic from that point on ( and the rest of the afternoon ) so that French didn’t have to concern himself with any of that.
From Panebaker Air-To-Air radio channel capture video 20130630_1628_EP
which is 40 minutes and 15 seconds long and actually STARTS at 1547.58 ( 3:47.58 PM ).
—————————————————————–
RORY COLLINS LEAVES THE FIRE NOW
—————————————————————–
This is now the moment that AA Rory Collins
tells Bravo 33 he is leaving… and now ( for
the first and only time ) we hear John Burfiend in
Bravo 33 talking to Collins on the A2A
channel and just trying to clarify who he
had been talking to on the ground.
—————————————————————–
+9:33 ( 1557.31 / 3:57.31 PM )
(AA – Collins): Bravo 33, Air Attack, I’m headed for… uh…
Deer Valley, and I’ll flight follow with… uh… ( an Arizona ).
+9:41 ( 1557.39 / 3:57.39 PM )
(B33 – French): Okay. Copy that. We… uh… We got it.
+9:44 ( 1557.42 / 3:57.42 PM )
(AA – Collins): (Sounds tired or disgusted?) Once again… uh…
good job and I appreciate all the help.
+9:49 ( 1557.47 / 3:57.47 PM )
(B33 – John Burfiend): And so… uh… are you workin’… uh…
with OPS primarily as your primary contact… uh… on the fire?
+9:56 ( 1557.54 / 3:57.54 PM )
(AA – Collins): Yea… ya know… for the most part.
Uhm… I think they’re a little ways away… uh… from that… uh…
south end… uh… so… I was tryin’ to relay and then communicate with
both ends of the fire I think OPS is still up north… uhm… for the most part.
Also… uh… before I forget here…
Your SEATS are gonna have to start reloading… uh… break.
NOTE: At +10:16 Collins ‘breaks’ for 3 seconds and then comes
right back and resumes his instructions about where SEATS should now
be reloading from…
+10:19 ( 1558.17 / 3:58.17 PM )
(AA – Collins): (Resumes what he saying a moment ago) …outta Gateway
now… uh… which is gonna be a longer turnaround.
Uhm… There outta mud at (Chambers)… and… uh… Wickenburg.
+10:28 ( 1558.26 / 3:58.26 PM )
(B33 – John Burfiend): Okay… copy that. Is Prescott closer?
+10:31 ( 1558.29 / 3:58.29 PM )
(AA – Collins): Yea… Prescott’s a lot closer but the weather’s gettin’ to ’em there.
+10:37 ( 1558.35 / 3:58.35 PM )
(B33 – John Burfiend): Copy.
+10:40 ( 1558.38 / 3:58.38 PM )
(AA – Collins): And my… uh… my relief pilot couldn’t get out of… uh…
(Stafford?) to meet me in Deer Valley so I… kinda high and dry.
+10:50 ( 1558.48 / 3:58.48 PM )
(B33 – John Burfiend): Copy
+10:51 ( 1558.49 / 3:58.49 PM )
(AA): So just be aware of the weather. Got kinda weather all over
uh… to the north and east of ya.
+10:58 ( 1558.56 / 3:58.56 PM )
(B33 – John Burfiend): Copy
—————————————————————————-
RORY COLLINS NOW EXITS YARNELL AIRSPACE
—————————————————————————-
Neither Rory Collins nor John Burfiend in Bravo 33 is ever heard
again speaking on the Air-To-Air radio channel. Only Thomas French.
—————————————————————————-
WTKTT—
Again I fall back on my experience as an AA.
When AA and Lead plane pilot are in the same Cockpit you have a major problem with
Communications. AA is talking to ground as you said and I said.
However ground is requesting drops. the AA is setting them up with the pilot who is Lead Plane. his is over a head set como in the plane as it is noisy. Also the pilot is talking to all other Air craft and leading the drop. Plus they are monitoring the FAA Freq. with the other Air Craft in the area. This is what makes it difficult for AA to monitor in coming traffic.
It is also impossible to keep track of ground crews on the posit side of the fire.
Like being the EYES for GM with only one plane which is being used as lead plane they can not be circling the fire watching people on the ground.
You can take it or leave it I have been in that situation and the radio traffic is crazy to say the least. So I am basing what I am saying on experience, GM was lucky to get any response much less B33 even hearing them with what was going on. AA was on A to G granted but he was also talking with the LP Pilot, And monitoring other channels he was not responsible to relay messages and may have ignored other traffic not connected with the drop area or even blocked out other traffic at that precise time as he was talking to the pilot or on the FAA Freq. with helicopters etc. His responsibility was to set up drops and keep Helicopters and other Air Tankers out of the drop areas. Lead plane was setting up paths and altitude and noting drop zone. Again a lot of traffic I realize AA was only on A to G but he was hearing every thing else in that enclosed environment.
You are right there was no reason for Burfiend to be on A to A he was in the cockpit with French.
A to A is for the lead plane unless the AA is in a seperiate Air Craft then they communicate on A to A.
Mr. Powers…
Thank you for your continued (experienced) insight on this.
As I said… I ( me, personally ) still have no idea what it was REALLY like being in that cockpit of that particular airplane at that particular time.
Only Thomas French, John Burfiend and his trainee Clint Cross really know.
SIDENOTE: Clint Cross was apparently present for the SAIT interview of Bravo 33 but those piss-poor notes from that interview don’t indicate that Clint Cross was EVER actually ‘interviewed’.. There is not ONE statement in those notes to indicate he either even said anything at all OR was ever even asked a single QUESTION.
I am still just trying to focus on what the EVIDENCE tells us and that is still…
1. As compared to some OTHER fires… there just weren’t that many planes or choppers on the fire circa the time of the MAYDAYS to say that it might have been so busy that that is why Burfiend was ignoring them.
2. We can hear Burfiend himself ( with our own ears ) telling OPS1 Abel ( TWICE ) that he was ‘copying that traffic’. He WAS hearing those men and their cries for help. He was CHOOSING to not respond and failed to do so until OPS1 Todd Abel ORDERED him to ( respond ).
3. Stay tuned for another post coming shortly that tries to answer Calvin’s question from below about WHEN they ‘ordered the Type 1 helicopters’ in and whether that timing indicates that Burfiend knew something bad was happening even BEFORE the MAYDAY calls and even BEFORE we hear him IGNORING those MAYDAY calls. As it turns out… there is a Panebaker Air-To-Air channel radio capture that proves that even the pilot of Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha was hearing that neither French nor Burfiend were RESPONDING to either Granite Mountain OR to OPS1 Abel… and that chopper pilot is heard on the Air-To-Air channel breaking in himself and TELLING them “Operations is calling on Air-To-Ground. They got something for you.”… but even for 30 seconds AFTER that ‘heads up’ from the pilot of Five Kilo Alpha… neither Thomas French nor John Burfiend were responding to EITHER OPS1 Abel or to Granite Mountain.
All that being said… let me ask you an important question…
Do you think the fact that Steed and Caldwell were including the ‘Arizona 16′ channel’ designation in their verbal callouts to Bravo 33 had anything to do with them not responding?
It is perfectly obvious ( in hindsight ) what really happened there.
Both Steed and Caldwell THOUGHT they were transmitting on Channel 16 but they actually were transmitting on Channel 10 ( Air-To-Ground ).
What’s the story with this ‘Channel 16’ thing?
Even though the transmissions were coming over Channel 10 ( Air-To-Ground )… do you think the fact that they were hearing the caller(s) specifically mentioning ‘Channel 16’ had anything to do with them choosing to not respond right away?
If they were officially both “Air Attack” and “Lead Plane”… and they thought for one moment that ‘Channel 16’ wasn’t something they were supposed to even care about…
…then what is Channel 16 really for… and WHO ELSE would have even been remotely responsible for responding to calls on THAT channel, if not THEM?
First a good question.
Was B33 Monitoring Air Guard?
Did they realize if they heard them they were on Air Guard?
Since it was not on there Frequencies that they were on did the GM call just go unanswered .
They heard them but did not register that the call was on 16.
The Fire camp would have also been monitoring Air Guard.
So we are back to a question that the Investigators did not do a good job with.
Also back to what I have been saying To much traffic in one cockpit.
While you hear the background traffic you can tune out what you don’t perceive as your call.
Did They really hear what GM said or just that GM7 had made a call on a freq.
and never really registered the call. It is possible.
I can’t say why they did not answer the call but the call was not really related to the Air Attack operation. Assuming GM was talking to someone else with out checking. That did not answer your question I do not think I really can.
Only they know and were not asked.
As Bob said, “too much traffic in one cockpit”.
I think most of us can agree on that.
I have harped on this before, but I’ll give it another go:
THERE IS NO PLACE ON LARGE OR POTENTIALLY EXPLOSIVE FIRES FOR AN ASM.
In fact, I have harped on TWO things before, so I might as well have another go at the second thing, as well:
SHORT TEAMS SHOULD ONLY BE USED ON ALL-HAZARD, NON-FIRE INCIDENTS (CONSIDERING THAT TYPE 4 & 5 FIRES ARE “SHORT” BY DEFINITION), AND POSSIBLY ON TYPE 3 FIRES WITH LIMITED POTENTIAL.
There, I’ve said it, nobody cares, but at least I’ve gotten it off of my chest for a while.
I totally agree—- but the new save money attack of small to medium fires is a night mare –There not catching up with extreme drought— when the fires are building in size and the teams are not qualified enough to build with them. Another one of those lost 10 AM policies. The fires are staying ahead of the overhead rather than the overhead planning ahead of the fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 21, 2014 at 6:53 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I can’t say why they did not answer the call but the call
>> was not really related to the Air Attack operation.
>> Assuming GM was talking to someone else with out checking
Give the fact that Steed did say “Breaking in on Arizona 16″… then yes… I can imagine a moment of WTF took place almost all over the fire… including up in ‘Bravo 33’.
I mean… how often does ANYONE start a transmission that way?
Probably not too often… and I’ll bet there’s a lot of people who would even need to take a moment to jump-start their brains and even remember from some class that ‘Channel 16’ equals ‘Air Guard’.
That being said… there is then NO DOUBT who GM was trying to speak to just a few seconds after that first BOTCHED mayday call.
On the SECOND MAYDAY call… Caldwell was still mentioning ‘Channel 16’ but he was ALSO now specifically mentioning “Air Attack”.
So whether or not ‘Bravo 33’ SHOULD have responded RIGHT AWAY to the first MAYDAY ( because if THEY weren’t ALSO responsible for responding to Channel 16 and ‘Air Guard’ requests… then WHO was? )…
…there is no doubt that whatever ‘Channel Dyslexia’ might have been involved for the first call was NOT involved with the SECOND call.
For the sake of clarity here… I am going to reprint the start of the transcript of the Helmet-Cam video… but WITHOUT any of the foreground talk between Prescott off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
This is just what was coming over the RADIO…
—————————————————————–
+00:13
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
+00:27
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on air to ground?
+00:33
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
+00:47
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Granite Mountain, Operations on air to ground.
+00:53
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
Once again ( for clarity ) here are just the three ‘callouts’ from GM…
—————————————————————–
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
BOTH the SECOND and THIRD calls for help were specifically directed to “Air Attack”. No doubt about it.
If Burfiend was confused about the FIRST one… he had NO reason to be confused at all about the SECOND or the THIRD call for help or that those calls were NOT being directed at HIM.
Even the pilot of Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha was NOT confused about ANY of this.
As soon as OPS1 Todd Abel tried to talk to Burfiend… and ALSO wasn’t getting any response from that man…
…the pilot of Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ also called B33 directly to tell them that Operations ‘had something for THEM’.
See my new parent comment post above that is trying to answer Calvin’s question about ‘WHAT did Burfiend know and WHEN did he know it” since we HEAR him telling OPS1 Abel he had ALREADY ‘ordered the Type 1 Helos back’ before he ever lifted a finger to answer any of GM’s calls and before he had even responded to OPS1 Abel.
It shows the exact moment in the A2A transcript when even Helicopter ‘Five Kilo Alpha’ was wondering WHY Burfiend wasn’t responding to those radio calls and was calling them directly to make sure they knew OPS1 himself was trying to talk to them.
Neither French nor Burfiend even responded or reacted to that ‘heads up’ call from ‘Five Kilo Alpha’. French just even ignored that ‘heads up’ call and just continued doing exactly what he was doing before the MAYDAY calls had even started… and Burfiend just continued to ignore BOTH the Granite Mountain calls for help AND OPS1 Todd Abel’s call.
I still say not IGNORED just totally missed the calls for several reasons.
as I have already explained. What they may have heard may not have registered They were dealing with other traffic.
French was only on Air To Air he would not have monitored A to G or
Air Guard and was talking with the tanker,
Burfiend could have been doing several things. As you have shown above they had to be notified that they were being called.
I would say they would never have IGNORED an emergency call if they had heard all or even part of it.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 22, 2014 at 7:55 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I would say they would never have IGNORED
>> an emergency call if they had heard all or
>> even part of it.
BINGO.
We KNOW Burfiend heard ‘all or part’ of it. ( He said so ).
So WHY was HE not perceiving it as an EMERGENCY and responding immediately?
He says ( in his SAIT interview ) that he thought it was just some structure protection group calling for retardant.
I still think that is crap and is not supported by even his own recorded statements in the Helmet-Cam.
Those were HOTSHOTS calling… and they identified themselves as such on ALL of the radio calls.
I think you just brought the entire discussion back to where it really started. No one is trying to ‘crucify’ anyone in an airplane or ( at least I’m not ) trying to say that even an immediate response would have resulted in some kind of pin-point retardant drop on the men in trouble.
I still don’t think that was possible… given the lateness of even the first MAYDAY call. There just wasn’t enough TIME left to really save those men with an airplane.
The POINT of this whole discussion, I believe, has been threefold.
1) WHY didn’t anyone in Bravo 33 seem to be sensing that this was an EMERGENCY sooner than they did… when others on the fire were sure even after the very first call that it WAS.
2) WHO was John Burfiend really talking to at the start of that Helmet-Cam video… and WHAT was that conversation really all about?
3) WHAT did John Burfiend really know about GM’s situation and location even BEFORE Eric Marsh hit the radio and ‘explained’ what was happening… since even BEFORE that happened we hear him telling OPS1 Todd Able that he (supposedly) ALREADY had the “Type 1 Helos ordered back in” and “we’ll do the best we can”.
Here are those THREE radio calls from GM again…
—————————————————————–
(GM): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
(GM): Air to ground 16, Granite Mountain, Air Attack, how do you read?
(GM): Air Attack, Granite Mountain 7, how do you copy me?
—————————————————————–
If you just look at the WORDS themselves ( and forget whether anyone was YELLING or not )… there is NO INDICATION WHATSOEVER in just those ‘transmissions’ that this was any kind of EMERGENCY.
They COULD be construed as just a bunch of normal ‘callouts’ with someone trying to get permission to speak to someone.
Granted… “We are in front of the flaming front” doesn’t sound good… but it still doesn’t necessarily ( and definitively ) indicate this was a life-threatening situation and because of the suddenness of that first transmission… if anything might have gotten ‘missed’ by someone listening it was most likely to have been that tail-end of that first transmission.
The SECOND and the THIRD calls didn’t repeat that and ended up sounding just like normal calls on the radio when someone is asking permission to speak with someone else.
So that all just goes back to what I said originally ( which is part of what launched this revisit of these radio conversations ). There SHOULD have already been some established radio protocol for DECLARING AN EMERGENCY and there would have been no question at all that even the FIRST radio call was a ‘STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PAY ATTENTION’ situation and that radio call needed to be answered IMMEDIATELY…
…and not TWO MINUTES later.
As I have said before… I don’t think the outcome would have changed in Yarnell itself, but someday… ( hopefully not soon )… those 2 minutes of ‘confusion’ about whether someone is really declaring an EMERGENCY could be the difference between life or death.
I really don’t understand what the big deal is.
Just establish a standard for EMERGENCY radio calls, issue the memos, make SURE everyone understands the new radio protocol… and be done with it.
It’s not hard.
In defense of John Burfiend (not that he needs my defense)….
I am pretty sure that John Burfiend (the right-seater in Bravo33) was not IGNORING the first GM transmission on the helmet camera video (which was the ONLY one in which GM advised that they were “IN FRONT OF A FLAMING FRONT”). Rather, it seems pretty clear that Burfiend just didn’t HEAR it. Given that he didn’t HEAR that the crew was “in front of a flaming front,” he didn’t REALIZE that he needed to stop everything immediately and get with them.
Burfiend had no fewer than four or more air-related channels/frequencies that he needed to care about that day. Burfiend was communicating with dispatch, communicating with the helibase manager, communicating with French, etc. (For the record, we hear Burfiend on Air-to-Air at least once, so he was obviously monitoring that as well.) When Burfriend was talking on one of these other channels/frequencies, he could not HEAR anything GM might have been saying – once Burfiend keyed his mic, incoming commo was not received. Similarly, if something was incoming from dispatch (for example) for Burfiend, he wasn’t going to hear GM either.
To that end, I am pretty sure that GM’s “we are in front of a flaming front” call was accidentally made by GM on Tac 1, which is a tactical channel as opposed to an air channel/frequency, such that it was not likely to be Burfiend’s priority scan, and it is entirely possible (if not likely) that Burfiend was getting other commo on other channels/frequencies when GM made that “flaming front” call on Tac 1.
Reply to Elizabeth post September 19, 2014 at 2:42 pm
>> Elizabeth said…
>>
>> To that end, I am pretty sure that GM’s “we are in front of a flaming
>> front” call was accidentally made by GM on Tac 1, which is a tactical
>> channel as opposed to an air channel/frequency, such that it was
>> not likely to be Burfiend’s priority scan, and it is entirely possible (if
>> not likely) that Burfiend was getting other commo on other
>> channels/frequencies when GM made that “flaming front” call on Tac 1.
13 seconds after Steed’s initial ‘We are in front of the flaming front” transmission… OPS1 Todd Abel called John Burfiend directly on the Air-to-Ground channel to ask him if he had just ‘copied’ that transmission.
In that transmission itself… OPS1 Abel verifies that the “We are in front of the flaming front” transmission had just taken place on the Air-To-Ground channel, and NOT any TAC channel.
From the transcript of the Helmet-Cam video itself…
+0:27
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on air to ground?
Todd Abel specifically says that traffic was on the ‘air to ground’ channel.
The Air-To-Ground channel WAS John Burfiend’s PRIORITY channel.
Burfiend then also chooses to not respond ( I call that ignoring ) to even that query from OPS1 Todd Abel.
Some TWO minutes later we learn ( from Burfiend himself ) that he DID hear ALL of that MAYDAY traffic ( including the first “We are in front of the flaming front” call ) and that he DID hear that initial query 13 seconds later from OPS1 Abel.
Burfiend tells Abel TWICE that he HAD been ‘Copying that traffic”.
He was simply choosing to NOT respond to it.
It wasn’t until OPS1 Todd Abel had to tell him directly ( and in no uncertain terms ) to basically ‘get his head out of his ass and ANSWER those men’ that Burfiend ‘woke up’ and even bothered to try and call them back.
Even then… instead of immediately ‘clearing’ that channel and trying to establish the exact nature of the EMERGENCY… he was only telling them to “stop hollering”.
Those full TWO minutes that were wasted with Burfiend NOT responding to those men that were desperately trying to contact him would have been more than enough time to actually pinpoint their location.
I still do not believe that would have effected the outcome on June 30, 2013… but someday it might.
Someday… those TWO minutes that were lost because some guy in an airplane seemed to be the only one on the fire who did NOT know this was an EMERGENCT in progress might be the difference between life and death for others.
I believe this ‘moment of confusion’ at a critical moment in Yarnell is reason enough for the WFF industry to immediately ( and once and for all ) establish an EMERGENCY radio protocol that is known to all participants in the industry.
It’s not hard. Just decide whether it’s going to be the existing MAYDAY protocol… or something else… then put out the memos and include it in the TRAINING…
…before someone else gets killed because there is no established protocol.
I just now stumbled across this REALLY IMPORTANT Yarnell Hill Fire video which was published on YouTube in friggin’ FEBRUARY 2014 by Tom Dolan of the Storm Chasers (they chase tornadoes). It includes a tribute to some of their own Storm Chasers who were killed (and I was following it on Twitter when it happened) in May 2013.
I’m kind of surprised I haven’t seen it before. I was just “drilling down” on YouTube when I found it.
These people are meteorologists (as was my dad).
This is a meteorological (even thought they call it “geographical”) visual analysis of the Yarnell HIll Fire.
I think I’m going to have to watch it about ten times to thoroughly comprehend what it is illustrating. it’s that DENSE.
What is striking to me is how this video demonstrates that (and how) there were TWO adjacent and connected FIRE TORNADOES (revolving in OPPOSITE directions) that were occurring RIGHT THERE as the Granite Mountain Hotshots were descending into that bowl.
This is the link:
“Yarnell Hill Fire Geographical Analysis by Tom Dolan”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IP_2wWqTisU
Have at it!
It’s been discussed on here a while back. Some of the graphics are good. He’s a bit over the top on some of what he puts forward, though.
Hmmmm. Somehow i guess I missed that.
Can you say more specifically what you mean by “He’s a bit over the top on some of what he puts forward, though”?
He makes it sound almost like a volcano, talking about a fire column with 2000 degree temps and such. And, that’s not credible in terms of what the temps were well above ground.
I do like the graphics, but really, thunderstorms roll down off the rim around that time of day there during the monsoon. That’s all this was, and it happened more or less exactly as forecast. Thunderstorms and their winds obviously can impact fire behavior. To me there’s a parallel to the reports that claim never to have heard of foreshortening, and that suggest that WFFs couldn’t be expected to judge distance. The events of the day were unusual, the storm wasn’t unusual, wasn’t a surprise, and didn’t unfold in a manner all that different than predicted..
Thank you so much for replying, SR! I really appreciate it. I spent a chunk of time looking for conversations regarding this analysis/video and didn’t find as much as I expected/hoped for.
I think his assignment of 2000 degrees came from the SAIR. And, from there, he was contemplating what that possibly would mean as he was looking at what he was looking at.
A lot of his tornado analysis comes from reading the 3D Doppler data, which includes DEBRIS information, and then going back to the actual site to confirm the accuracy of that 3D Doppler data.
So, I think what he did with combining the 2000 degree number from the SAIR with his observations of debris flow in tornadoes caused him to think YIKES!!! But I don’t think that mistake that everybody here seems to have focused on, deserves to be a cause for us to not take what he is observing/analyzing/portraying very seriously.
BTW. I couldn’t find it easily, because his site is a bit less than optimal, but somewhere he says he was a Hotshot on the Los Padres National Forest.
To me (in spite of the above), when I watched his February video, what was significant was his discernment of the double cyclonic column over the SW bowl at the time of the burnover.
I’ve been looking at a lot of analyses and videos of cyclonic columns on fires. Disclaimer: My father developed the mathematical algorithms (by actually flying them) necessary to fly into/out of/around typhoons/hurricanes in the Pacific.
You wrote “the storm wasn’t unusual, wasn’t a surprise, and didn’t unfold in a manner all that different than predicted..”
I agree with that in general. However, the emergence of cyclonic columns (much less double ones) in fires is, at this time, only vaguely understood. much less “predictable.” And, even when noticed, the behavior of cyclonic columns are, at this time, almost wildly “unpredictable.”
There is absolutely no way the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have been equipped to forecast the emergence (and path) of a double cyclonic column out of what they knew/were seeing.
It took a tornado expert (and John Dolan is very much that–and he also had been a hotshot earlier in his life), after the fact, to see it.
Does that change my current opinion that the crew SHOULD have known better than to do what they did?
No.
I believe, at this point, that “they” mistakenly assumed the forecasted wind shift had already occurred and that, therefore, they were paralleling the fire as they headed through the bowl to the Helms Ranch.
To me, the fatal decision was to not post a lookout. We do not know why they thought that was “reasonable.”
I truly hope that the NWCG re-investigation of this fire (which I’m almost positive will happen) will either include or spawn a much more detailed and resourced fire behavior analysis of this fire. It definitely deserves one.
Cyclonic columns makes the whole thing sound complicated. But, even a young kid notices unpredictable winds in storms, or dust devils in open lots or dry lake beds. GM didn’t need to have a math Phd on hand to see that the weather would push their way and to know that storms have squirrely winds.
As for a lookout, the sad math is that, once they had committed to that bowl, a lookout would have done them no good. If you had told them 10 minutes earlier that they were going to be entrapped, they weren’t going to be able to retreat to a SZ. The best they could have done is make it to the rocks in a retreat begun earlier — that horse has been beaten on here, I do believe it would have been better, but still would have been an entrapment.
In terms of failure to post a lookout, remember they even had Burfiend reaching out because he recognized that they weren’t safe. They could very easily have disclosed their plans and asked for a lookout from him, but instead basically blew him off. The human factors that led to that are in some ways very obvious, but ones that people don’t want to acknowledge.
Reply to SR post on September 21, 2014 at 5:48 am
With regards to that online video entitled…
“Yarnell Hill Fire Geographical Analysis by Tom Dolan”
…a few ‘points ( my opinions only, your mileage may vary, of course ).
1. Lots of other photographic evidence in both the SAIR and ADOSH FOIA/FOIL releases doesn’t support a number of his claims.
2. You can’t argue with the Doppler data… but I also think he was relying too much on just the Matt Oss time lapse video for some of his conclusions.
3. I don’t know about his whole ‘Vesuvius’ Volcano-style theories regarding the collapse of the column… but there is no doubt that everyone on that fire KNEW it was already seriously ‘spotting ahead’ long before Granite Mountain made any of the decisions that got them all killed. Gary Cordes said the fire was already spotting a ‘half-mile ahead’ even when it hit the first trigger point and before everyone had even evacuated from the Shrine Road / Harper Canyon Youth Camp area. The obvious ‘spotting ahead’ was already visibly evident even in the 1550-1555 photos and videos that Christopher MacKenzie took before they even left the safe black.
4. Everyone also KNEW the ‘winds’ were doing VERY strange things before any fatal decisions were made. There is no doubt of that. Eric Marsh himself told OPS1 Abel how ‘squirrelly’ the winds were even at 1542… and if you look closely at all the photos that Brendan McDonough himself took right after Frisby dropped him off at the GM Superintendent Truck… the REASON Brendan was taking those photos is because he was trying to capture a pretty serious fire/smoke WHIRL that was right there in front of him. Even at 1542 and 1544… this fireline was exhibiting that kind of EXTREME FIRE BEHAVIOR.
So truly… no one needed a PHD that day.
All they needed to have been doing was paying attention and basing their behavior on…
“Current and expected fire behavior”.
They didn’t… and then they died.
Reply to SR post on September 21, 2014 at 5:48 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> As for a lookout, the sad math is that, once
>> they had committed to that bowl, a lookout
>> would have done them no good.
I disagree.
It was all about TIME, that day.
Yes… the further they descended the more ‘trouble’ they were getting into and the more the TIME factor was getting ‘deadly’ for them… but I still believe there were incremental points where they would have had plenty of time to ‘full reverse’ and SAVE themselves… if they had only been informed ( in time ) about what they (apparently) could not see for themselves.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> If you had told them 10 minutes earlier that
>> they were going to be entrapped, they
>> weren’t going to be able to retreat to a SZ.
If you really mean that if someone had told them they needed to ‘get the hell out of there’ as early as 1629 ( 10 minutes before the first MAYDAY ) that they still wouldn’t have been able to make it back up ( and over ) that ridge…
…again… I have to respectfully disagree.
I still believe the TIMEFRAME we are looking at here is only a matter of a FEW minutes.
If they hadn’t wasted all that time searching for a deployment site, assembling the men there, firing up chainsaws, cutting shit down, then whatever time it took to plan, prepare and execute this ‘burning around ourselves’ and then, finally, add the time it took to pull, prepare, and get into shelters…
…I believe that TIME has to all be factored into their ability to have made it back up and OVER that ridge.
Even just based on the 1639 time ( since we don’t know how much time they wasted even before that )… a comparison with the official Canadian WFF ‘Slope ascent rates’ study suggests they might have only really been ‘missing’ about 80 seconds to have made it back up ( and over ) the ridge.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> The best they could have done is make it to
>> the rocks in a retreat begun earlier — that
>> horse has been beaten on here, I do believe
>> it would have been better, but still would
>> have been an entrapment.
If they had scrambled for the rocks… I still think probably at least half of them would have died. It would have come down to physical agility… and a whole lot of ‘luck’ and ‘good guesses’ as to where to scramble to…
…but I DO believe at least a FEW of them might have found these ‘rock caves’ that even Tex Sonny Gilligan said were there and if they used their shelters as forward heat shields and the air remained breathable… SOME of them might have been able to come HOME to their wives and children.
Deploying where they did was CERTAIN death.
ANYTHING else *MIGHT* have produced better results.
>> SR also said…
>>
>> In terms of failure to post a lookout, remember
>> they even had Burfiend reaching out because
>> he recognized that they weren’t safe. They
>> could very easily have disclosed their plans
>> and asked for a lookout from him, but instead
>> basically blew him off. The human factors that
>> led to that are in some ways very obvious, but
>> ones that people don’t want to acknowledge.
To me… one of the most disturbing ‘human factors’ aspects that might end up needing to be explained is what the evidence seems to point to more and more.
That Eric Marsh WAS ‘ahead’ of that crew and might have had SOME kind of (much) better view of what was happening with the fireline out in front of the mouth of that box canyon… but that he still let those men keep coming forward to their deaths, anyway.
It all depends WHERE Marsh really, truly was.
The farther ahead he was… and the more he had the chance to be their ‘lookout’ and see the danger… the more disturbing it is to contemplate WHY he would have still let those men keep coming forward to their deaths.
They first failed to follow the basics.
A good lookout would have seen the change immediately and pulled them back out when the fire changed it was fast and spectacular and I believe soon after they dropped off the saddle.
You are right it was all about time.
But it was also a lot about rules The 10 standard orders if followed would have stopped them in there tracks.
The Old Hillbilly Rules that smart fire fighters don’t follow any more.
Reply to “The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive” ( TTWARE )
post on September 17, 2014 at 1:27 pm
NOTE: This is also being ‘brought’ up from down below in that same thread that has gotten so full that the ‘Reply’ buttons are no longer appearing where they should.
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> SR,
>> I would be more than inclined to give Burfiend the benefit of the doubt,
>> if not for the fact that there were MULTIPLE attempts to reach him
>> without a response.
…plus the fact that even at the point where MANY other people listening to those
frantic calls ALREADY knew something bad was going down… the only thing Burfiend
actually ever said back to ‘Granite Mountain 7′ was ( basically ) “Shut The Fuck Up” ( STFU ).
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If the first transmission of someone shouting had been garbled for
>> whatever reason, all the more reason to be paying closer attention
>> to what came after.
It wasn’t garbled. It was just LOUD… and for a damn good reason.
The guy was in TROUBLE and already had at least two chainsaws running next to his head.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> To me, and probably many others, hearing any one of those transmissions
>> was a strong indicator that shit was going down-hill in a real bad way.
There is NO DOUBT that before Abel even had to ORDER Burfiend to (essentially) get his head out of his ass and ANSWER those men frantically trying to talk to him… ‘many others’ there in Yarnell and Peeples Valley had already realized that (as you said) SOME kind of shit was coming downhill so fast out there it was like ‘bowling for Hotshots’. in a VERY bad way.
1 minute and 58 seconds of listening to ‘elite Hotshots’ screaming into a radio trying to get some guy in an airplane to even acknowledge them isn’t some minor request in progress OR some one-off accidental transmit on a wrong channel.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> Certainly, at the very least, warranting a prompt radio response, even if it
>> turned out, when it was all said and done, that it was just someone using
>> the radio in an improper manner.
Agree. Burfiend basically told them to STFU before even lifting one finger to find out what it even *might* have been all about.
Just one more thing that should NEVER happen again. Not ever.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> It think it’s fairly safe to assume that during the time those
>> transmissions were being broadcast, people all over the place
>> were slamming BK portable radios up against the sides of their
>> heads so they could hear more clearly what was going on.
That is EXACTLY what was happening, at that instant ( and all over the fire ).
Marty Cole, former Captain of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( then retired ) was one of TWO ‘Safety Officers’ that had been hired for Yarnell that day. The other was ‘big dog’ Tony Sciacca.
Sciacca was there before Cole… but Cole was the one who refused to even leave Prescott and start driving to Yarnell that day until he saw some kind of ‘email confirmation’ show up on his computer at his house.
That is why ‘Safety Officer’ Marty Cole only got to Yarnell just minutes before the deployment.
Marty Cole couldn’t even find anyone at the ICP to give him a radio clone when he arrived… so he started heading east on Hays Ranch Road to see if he could find ANYONE who might be able to do that for him.
He reached the point where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89 and there was that ‘roadblock’ in place at that ‘T’ intersection being maintained by DPS Public Safety officers. There were ‘official’ looking people milling about there as well.
He stopped there and says he came across two ‘Forestry guys’ and he asked them if he could get a ‘clone off them’.
At that exact moment… the MAYDAY traffic was hitting the A2G channel.
Marty Cole says ( in his own official Unit Log ) that these men were then doing exactly what you just described. The moment that traffic even started to appear… they ‘slammed their BK radios’ against their ears because they could immediately tell something BAD was happening.
They told Marty Cole to ‘standby’ because they (quote) “Had to listen to this traffic”.
They kept their BK radios ‘slammed against their heads’ until it was not totally obvious what was really going down.
Marty Cole eventually did get his ‘radio clone’ from them and that is when he headed straight down Highway 89 to the Ranch House Restaurant and parked his all-white Toyota Tacoma extended cab pickup there, found Brendan McDonough, and immediately started ‘taking care of him’.
There is similar testimony in places ( such as DPS Medic Eric Tarr ) of other people absolutely dropping what they were doing the moment that first MAYDAY hit the radio and then PAYING ATTENTION.
In a way… it seems like the only one who wasn’t ‘getting it’ or wasn’t ‘figuring out something really bad was happening’ was the very man they were trying to talk to.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33.
>> TTWARE also wrote
>>
>> On the first transmission, I’m willing to give Burfiend a pass, due
>> to possible (excessive noise, garbled transmission, excessive
>> radio traffic), whatever.
That ‘whatever’ list would probably include the chance it was a one-off accidental pipe-out on the wrong channel. It happens. Even Steed himself wasn’t even transmitting on the channel he actually thought he was due to an ‘over-dial’ on his BK knob… or something.
Even so… that first transmit was intense… and SHOULD have been answered IMMEDIATELY.
This was a HOTSHOT calling.
He identified himself as such. ( Granite Mountain 7 ) and it was NOT garbled in any way.
What are the odds a trained (supposedly elite) HOTSHOT would be making some kind of frivolous call to “Air Attack”? Not high.
>> TTWARE also said.
>>
>> On all subsequent transmissions, he does not get a pass from me.
Agree.
Inexcusable… and it should never happen like that on a fire again. Not ever.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> He should have been doing the same thing so many other people
>> on the fire were doing during those moments, which was trying to
>> hear everything they possibly could to determine exactly what
>> was going on.
Agree. See references to Marty Cole’s actual testimony up above.
OPS1 Todd Abel was VERY busy himself up north when that traffic hit the radio… yet within seconds he was calling direct to Burfiend trying to make sure HE was hearing the traffic since it was actually DIRECTED at him.
OPS1 Todd Abel knew right away something was wrong ( right away ).
He had to spend the next 1 minute and 58 seconds just getting the guy in the airplane to ‘wake up’ and realize what everyone else listening to that radio traffic ALREADY knew.
WHY did B33 ignore GM for such a long time? And then tell them to STFU!
It appears (to me) that B33 had sufficient situational awareness. As noted ,Burfiend tells Abel he was in fact copying that conversation. He also seems to know the general location of GM, because he sure as hell didn’t ask for any other clarification.
I think it is possible that the biggest clue of his SA was that he knew other people were also hearing the radio traffic and he wanted it to stop. First he tried just simply ignoring the frantic calls, and when that didn’t work, he told them to STFU !
It was kind of like. You know what is going on. I know what is going on. STFU, because there is no one else who needs to hear this.
In B33’s in SAIT interview they say. On the 3rd run, I heard the crew. There was about two minutes between runs. Smoke was the issue not the fire. I called dispatch and told them that we have multiple shelter deployments and the started asking questions. I told them “do not call me for any more information. I don’t have any”.
It seems that he also doesn’t want to have ANY open radio discussions. B33 did have other information (they are on the south side, Div A is with GM, etc) , he just said that he didn’t to silence the open radio discussion.
Just for the sake of information———–
Burfiend B33 was in a highly critical faze of his job when the traffic from GM started.
He was flying thru smoke directing air craft on drops on AIR to AIR.
His job at that point was not to monitor all the other Radio traffic.
Keeping planes lined up and safe from each other making sure Helicopters were not in the drop zones.
No wonder he did not respond to the Air to Ground calls while you may think its a priority channel it is not when Air Attack is directing air tanker runs that can be critical if not lined up and especially in smoke.
So I give him some benefit here his primary job was to keep air craft safe and not have a big air collision in heavy smoke drops.
Clear text info B33 had none no direct or precise info on crew south side of the fire was a 2 mile front. Talking to B33 took up the open channel that GM could talk on.
He tried to get more info but had no response. Marsh should have relayed specific information which did not happen B33 could not respond to any location other than the South side of the fire. which by then was covered in heavy smoke.
You are all assuming to much for B33 to be responsible for. His priority was Air Craft at that time not ground traffic.
Well said.
Aside from channels, people can also only be expected to have so much active brain-space at any on emoment.
And, again, when he’d time to process that something wasn’t right, he had acted, earlier. It wasn’t his job to verbally hold their hand on the way down when they’d said (multiple times, apparently) that they were comfortable, didn’t need help, and had not indicated where they were or their exact route nor maintained contact in the minutes since. If you wave off inquiries, say you don’t need help, and then need help a while later at a particularly busy time, it seems odd to say the person who’d earlier checked in on you should never get overloaded by the ongoing demands of his job.
Reply to SR post on September 18, 2014 at 10:25 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> It wasn’t his job to verbally hold their hand on the
>> way down when they’d said (multiple times,
>> apparently) that they were comfortable, didn’t
>> need help, and had not indicated where they were
>> or their exact route nor maintained contact in the
>> minutes since.
IAOI ( If And Only If ) that background conversation at the very start of the Panebaker 1616 video is, in fact, Burfiend telling someone on the ground that he HAS ‘spotted them’ there ‘behind those hills’ and ‘on the corner of the fire’… and that they just keep answering supposed repeated queries with ‘we are comfortable’… then that captured conversation would also indicate that Burfiend was ‘passing off’ on this situation to ground command.
Burfiend also appears to say their ( repeated ) reports of being ‘comfortable where he sees them’ are NOT CREDIBLE to him.
He then also seems to ‘pass off’ on this whole situation and then just tells someone on the GROUND to take over ‘checking on these guys’ and to CALL them and ask them if DIVSA is actually WITH them ( or not )… because all he was getting was obtuse talk and a bunch of “We’re fine down here! How are YOU!” responses.
Bravo 33 was supposedly ASKED to go check on them.
It does sound like they did just that ( circa 1610 to 1613 ) but just got a bunch of “We are comfortable here” responses.
SIDENOTE: It has never been ‘matched up’ with this moment but there has always been the following exchange reported on PDF page 33 of the official SAIR document…
——————————————————
At approximately 1600, ASM2 overhears a comment on the radio referencing a crew and a safety zone. ASM2 calls OPS1 and clarifies, “I heard a crew in a safety zone, do we need to call a time out?” OPS1 replies, “No, they’re in a good place. They’re safe and it’s Granite Mountain.” They talk about flying over to check on the crew, but for now, they think the crew is safe in the black.
Following this conversation, ASM2 hears DIVS A announce on the radio, “We’re going down our escape route to our safety zone.” ASM2 asks, “Is everything okay?” to which DIVS A replies, “Yes, we’re just moving.”
—————————————————-
So even though the times are a little off and it doesn’t say unequivocally that Bravo 33 WAS asked to go get a ‘visual’ on them… the background audio at the start of the Panebaker 1616 video DOES seem to confirm that Bravo 33 DID do that ( go and check on them ) and that’s when they ‘saw them behind those hills there… on the corner of the fire’.
This report in the SAIR itself about Bravo 33 then asking them if they were OK and all they got back was “YES… we’re just moving” also seems to match what is being said in the Panebaker video about them continually “reporting they are comfortable” which Burfiend then says is simply “not credible” to him…
…and so he passes all this ‘checking on Granite Mountain’ and ‘determining where the hell DIVSA really is’ back off to ground command because he has better things to do at this point.
None of this ( either what the SAIT reports OR what appears to be said in the Panebaker 1616 video ) has been fully confirmed… but these two different pieces of evidence DO seem to ‘match up’.
Bravo 33 DID go ‘check on GM’ ( and get a visual ).
Bravo 33 DID ask them if they were OK and they said “Sure!”.
Bravo 33 might have even asked them AGAIN… got same answer.
Bravo 33 passes this ‘babysitting’ off to ground command since they still don’t know where DIVSA himself is but that’s all the time they can spend on this ‘personnel search’ on behalf of the ground folks. They have other important things to do at that time.
And by ‘Bravo 33’ above I mean ‘John Burfiend’.
The OTHER Panebaker video capture of all the Air-To-Air traffic indicates Thomas French might have been flying Bravo 33 at this time but it was Burfiend handling this entire ‘Go check on Granite Mountain’ assignment and ALL the A2G traffic.
The Air-To-Air channel captures in this entire timeframe have French ONLY talking on Air-To-Air and trying to coordinate with aircraft and shift the support focus to the south side of the fire.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 18, 2014 at 7:10 am
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> Just for the sake of information———–
>>
>> Burfiend B33 was in a highly critical faze of his job when
>> the traffic from GM started.
>>
>> He was flying thru smoke directing air craft on drops on AIR to AIR.
No. He was NOT.
Mr. Powers… you need to listen to the Panebaker videos that captured ALL of the Air-To-Air channel traffic that day or read the transcripts.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33 is NOWHERE on that channel.
It was Thomas French who was handling ALL of the Air-To-Air channel traffic and not only leading drops… but making sure inbound aircraft either entered ‘holding patterns’ or came in on the right line when he needed them to.
When Collins left the fire abruptly at 1558 ( 3:58 PM ) and dumped the “Air Attack” responsibilities into Bravo 33’s lap… French turned to Burfiend and said “Well… I guess you’re Air Attack”… but French did NOT hand over the Air-To-Air channel monitoring to Burfiend.
Thomas French continued to do exactly what he was doing before Collins left the fire ( Lead Plane ) and then he started communicating with other aircraft that were inbound to the area like VLAT 911 with pilot ‘Kevin’ on board.
He out Kevin in a holding pattern about 10 miles out until just shortly before the deployment traffic was going to hit the radio.
I believe it was UNDERSTOOD between French and Burfiend that French would simply take the Air-To-Air channel and Burfiend ( and his trainee Clint Cross ) would ONLY monitor the Air-To-Ground traffic… and THAT is how these men were going to pull off being BOTH ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ at the same time.
There is no evidence that this is NOT the case or that this is NOT simply how they decided to handle their situation that day.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> His job at that point was not to monitor all the other Radio traffic.
Certainly not TAC… but it was also (apparently) NOT his job to be closely monitoring Air-To-Air traffic, either. Thomas French was handling ALL of that.
That leave Air-To-Ground.
That WAS ( apparently ) his primary job to be monitoring THAT channel.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Keeping planes lined up and safe from each other making
>> sure Helicopters were not in the drop zones.
Thomas French was doing that. Not John Burfiend.
It’s in the Panebaker video Air-To-Air channel radio captures.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> No wonder he did not respond to the Air to Ground calls
>> while you may think its a priority channel it is not when
>> Air Attack is directing air tanker runs that can be critical
>> if not lined up and especially in smoke.
Again… I don’t believe that is what was happening.
You may have an understanding of what an “Air Attack” is SUPPOSED to be doing… but there is no evidence that is what was going down that day up in Bravo 33. They had a ‘special arrangement’ going on with French taking all Air-To-Air traffic and Burfiend taking all Air-To-Ground traffic.
Whether that is supposed to be the way it goes down when the same plane is supposed to be both ‘Air Attack’ and ‘Lead Plane’ at the same time… I do not know… but that IS, in fact, apparently what these two men in that same airplane decided to do that day.
>> Bob Powers also said.
>>
>> So I give him some benefit here his primary job was to keep
>> air craft safe and not have a big air collision in heavy smoke drops.
Maybe he ( Burfiend ) does deserve some ‘benefit of the doubt’… but not for those reasons or for that ‘excuse’.
There is no evidence he was doing what you think he was doing.
I don’t know what his PRIMARY job was in that special arrangement he worked out with the guy sitting next to him ( French ) in Bravo 33… but it certainly was NOT his ‘primary job’ to be handling ANY Air-To-Air traffic that day. French was handling ALL of that.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Clear text info B33 had none no direct or precise info on
>> crew south side of the fire was a 2 mile front.
Well… if that really is John Burfiend in Bravo 33 at the start of that 1614-1617 Panebaker video and saying what he *appears* to be saying… then he DID have ‘more information’ than we might think about where GM was ( at 1616, anyway ). He *seems* to be telling someone on the ground that he has ‘seen them behind those hills there… on the corner of the fire’… and that he had also *seemed* to have communicated with them at that time and they (quote) “kept saying they were comfortable but that’s not credible”.
So perhaps Calvin is right.
Perhaps Burfiend did know more than we think.
There are also those reported ‘callouts’ to ‘Air Attack’ that preceded even the reported call from Marsh about “that’s where we want retardant”.
Supposedly… someone ( Steed? ) just ‘announced’ to Air Attack over A2G ( which Burfiend was supposed to be monitoring while French took A2A ) that they were ‘heading to a ranch they had in sight”.
Well… if that really happened… then that can ONLY mean that transmission took place from the top of the saddle OR while Steed/Crew will still descending down the slope to the floor of the box canyon.
Those would be the only times that Steed himself could have actually ‘had the ranch in sight’ like he (supposedly) said he did.
So now Burfiend ( supposedly ) has even MORE information about where they really were in the 1616 to 1639 timeframe.
He supposedly SAW and TALKED to them circa 1616 when they would have been eitherr just arriving or already at the top of the saddle.
Then he supposedly got ‘announcements’ from them even after that that they were ‘heading to a ranch they had in sight’.
That would, in fact, have given Burfiend a pretty good ‘general’ idea of where they were in the 1639 timeframe when the MAYDAYS started hitting the radio.
It is actually highly likely this “we are heading to a Ranch we have in sight” transmission took place… since we know for a fact that the reason DPS Helicopter Ranger 58 chose to ‘fly that line’ from the ridge towards the ranch and then FIND the shelters is because onboard DPS medic Eric Tarr remembered hearing something specifically LIKE that reported transmission of “We are heading to a ranch we have in sight”.
DPS Medic Eric Tarr remembered HEARING that ( or something just like it ) and he informed Ranger 58 pilot Clifford Brunsting about it… which is when Brunsting decided to ‘fly that line’ from the ridge towards the Boulder Springs Ranch.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>> Talking to B33 took up the open channel that GM could talk on.
Not sure what you mean there.
If I understand what you are trying to say there… then shouldn’t Burfiend have been telling OPS Abel to STFU and stop transmitting on the same A2G channel at that time ( which he was ) instead of telling the men who were actually in trouble to STFU?
>> Bob Powers also wrote…
>>
>> He tried to get more info but had no response.
That was only AFTER he had already wasted those critical TWO minutes by completely IGNORING them.
Burfiend only took interest in this after OPS1 Todd Able ORDERED him to… but TWO critical minutes had already been lost as far as verifying their actual location.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> Marsh should have relayed specific information
>> which did not happen
Agree. Since Burfiend had WASTED those two critical minutes just IGNORING those men… then the only remaining chance to find out exactly where they were would have been a better response to his question…
“So… you ARE on the SOUTH side of the fire, then?”
Marsh didn’t take that final opportunity to provide any more detail about exactly WHERE they were. All he said was “Affirm”… which will forever remain a mystery unless the answer there is that because of the 2 minutes Burfiend had WASTED by IGNORING them… the flames were already licking at Marsh’s boots by the time Burfiend was taking any real interest and all Marsh really had time for there, in the end, was that “Affirm” transmit.
>> Bob Powers also wrote
>>
>> You are all assuming too much for B33 to be responsible for.
No… I don’t think so. ( Well, speaking for myself, I don’t think I am ).
I think it is YOU doing the ‘assuming’ that Burfiend was ‘responsible for’
both Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground radio traffic around the time of the
MAYDAY calls.
I really do NOT think that was the case.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> His priority was Air Craft at that time not ground traffic.
Again… I believe you are mistaken.
I believe the evidence says it was the direct OPPOSITE.
He WAS ‘primarily’ responsible for handling ‘ground traffic’ at that time.
I am ready to see any evidence that Burfiend was particpating in ANY of the Air-To-Air traffic at that time… but it certainly is nowhere to be seen or heard on the actual Panebaker Air-To-Air radio channel captures.
First lets make sure we are on the same page–
B33 is 1 air craft French is the pilot in the lead plane Burfiend is AA.
There are both in the cockpit together with all the traffic.
B33 is the lead plane and is also caring Air Attack.
French is on Air to Air and talking with Burfiend over head sets.
Burfiend was setting up drops with some one on the ground like OPS or the structure protection group. a lot going on in that cockpit.
That is what I was saying If they are dropping on structures and getting requests they would not necessarily have herd GM at certain points in there runs. It is pure and simple a lot of radio traffic going on.
Burfiend was not responsible to relay messages. Yelling on Air to ground would make it hard to hear in the plane.
B33 was doing dual duty is that any clearer?
You can not be making a lead plane show me drop and at the same time searching for a crew only one thing at a time.
Hopefully that makes it a little clearer.
In most cases and this one had the other plane not left they would have had seperiate duties
The plane that left was AA and B33 was Lead plane, again I am saying 1 plane with two jobs and two people working A to A and A to Ground., and lead plane.
In normal cases the AA would be circling above and out of the way talking to ground units. and setting priorities for the Air Tankers with the Lead plane.
So Burfiend is talking directly with French either over head sets or yelling at each other. as the different drops are set up.
Mr. Powers… I believe we ARE on the same page here with regards to details like who was in the same airplane and the fact that however they were supposed to be pulling it off… this same airplane was supposed to be fulfilling both Lead Plane AND Air Attack responsibilities at the same time… but I think we are both reading that same page two different ways.
You are reading that page from a perspective of what you simply think they were SUPPOSED to be doing.
I am trying to read that page from a perspective of ‘what does the evidence tell us they were REALLY doing’ up in that plane?
The EVIDENCE indicates these two men had agreed to divide the AA portion of their duties just based on who was going to be responsible for paying full attention to which RADIO channel.
French took A2A and just continued doing what he had been doing and guiding drops… but he was also now talking to all inbound and outbound aircraft and monitoring their in/out vectors like an Air Attack would normally do.
Burfiend took the A2G channel as HIS primary responsibility so French wouldn’t have to be concerned with that at all.
The EVIDENCE even indicates that French took the A2G channel ‘out of his ear’ to be sure and just focus on A2A traffic only. He knew he could do that because his ‘right seater’ Burfiend was now handling all A2A traffic.
The EVIDENCE also indicates that just prior to the MAYDAY calls… things were not nearly as ‘busy’ or ‘wildly hectic’ as you seem to be imagining them to be.
Right after the 1633 SEAT drop… that SEAT went on immediate ‘load and return’ and left the area.
There were now no other SEATS or Tankers left in the area other than VLAT 911 with pilot Kevin onboard who French had been keeping in a holding pattern off to the SOUTH while he finished up with that last SEAT.
Just before the MAYDAYS started… French was just simply bringing Kevin in from the south and he was circling around trying to get in front of him as he came in from the south.
French even tells Kevin two things at this point… just before the MAYDAYS…
“We’re pretty much ALONE on the fire right now. It’s just you and me.”
AND
“There is NO Air Attack above us… so you’re clear up to 6500 if you need the room.”
So it really wasn’t ‘crazy busy’ at that time like you are imagining it was.
Typo above.
I typed A2A in a place I meant to type A2G.
Paragraph above should have been…
He ( French) knew he could do that ( take A2G out of his ear ) because he knew his ‘right seater’ ( Burfiend ) had that A2G channel and that was HIS primary listening focus.
If Burfiend was telling Kevin that they were all alone and within minutes of that, was stating that the type 1’s (helicopters) were ordered back in.
When were they ordered? Why were they ordered? If Burfiend doesn’t know what is going on, why did they order the helicopters back?
Calvin… see a new ‘parent comment’ above that tries to shed some more light on some of this based on available evidence.
As it turns out… even just AFTER Burfiend was telling OPS1 Abel they had already ordered ‘Type 1 Helos back in’…
Thomas French was saying GOODBYE to Type 1 Helicopter ‘Five Hotel Delta’ and letting them LEAVE Yarnell.
All throughout the MAYDAY traffic… Thomas French himself seemed absolutely oblivious to what was happening on the A2G channel.
If what Burfiend told Abel really was true… then how could French then be DISMISSING a ‘Type 1 Helicopter’ from the fire that was NOT having any fuel problems or anything of the sort.
Type 1 Helicopter ‘Five Hotel Delta’ just called French and said they thought their ‘work was done’ and they were just ‘leaving now’.
French said that was fine… said GOODBYE… and Type 1 Helicopter ‘Five Hotel Delta’ then just signed off with “Thank you… and Good night!”.
This was still DURING the MAYDAY traffic and more than 50 seconds AFTER Burfiend had told OPS1 they were ‘ordering the Type 1 Helos back in’.
Correction for the post above…
It has since been determined that the ‘Five Hotel Delta’ helicopter that called Thomas French DURING the MAYDAY calls from Granite Mountain just to tell French they were leaving the fire was the ABC 15 ‘Air 15’ media chopper, and not a Helicopter that had any DROP capability.
That is why there is no record of a ‘Five Hotel Delta’ helicopter in the Resource records for the Yarnell Hill Fire. It was and ABC 15 media chooper that was LEAVING the fire at the very moment of deployment.
Reply to FIRE20+ post September 17, 2014 at 12:38 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
It’s the thread that was discussing that conversation we can all hear with our own ears at the START of the Helmet-Cam video ( and what that might have been all about ), whether or not there really was a pre-Helmet-Cam MAYDAY call on TAC 1 as Blue Ridge Hotshots have testified there was… and a general discussion of “Air Attack” John Burfiend’s obvious choice to IGNORE the Granite Mountain MAYDAY calls for a full 2 minutes that day… until he was ORDERED to respond to those men by OPS1 Todd Abel.
>> FIRE20+ said.
>>
>> “Broken and unclear” can also mean “distracted by my metal in
>> the air” in a CYA sort of way. Air to Air can take up a lot of listening
>> room in an Air Attack’s head.
According to testimony ( and backed up by the Panebaker recordings )… at that moment in time… on the Yarnell Hill Fire ( 1639 )… John Burfiend ( and his onboard trainee Clint Cross ) were ONLY listening to the Air-To-Ground channel and Thomas French was ONLY listening to the Air-To-Air channel.
That seems to have been what French and Burfiend worked out for themselves regarding how they were going to handle this “Lead Plane AND Air Attack” double-duty that Rory Collins had dumped into their laps when he suddenly the left the fire at 1558 ( 3:58 PM ).
In his own testimony… “Air Attack” Burfiend said he was (quote) “trying to stay 3 drops ahead of French” at that moment in time.
French was totally absorbed in the Air-To-Air traffic and handling the switch-over in the Air Support from a focus up north to now a focus on the SOUTH side. He is actually oblivious to the Air-To-Ground MAYDAY traffic as it was happening. In the timeframe when all those MAYDAY calls were hitting the A2G channel… the Panebaker Air-To-Air channel captures prove that French was just fully absorbed in talking to VLAT 911 pilot ‘Kevin’ and trying to pull him out of his holding pattern to the SOUTH and ‘bring him in’ to Yarnell. French was also totally absorbed at that point in trying to circle around and ‘get in front of him’ as Kevin came in from the SOUTH.
According to the (verified) timestamps on the Panebaker Air-To-Air recordings… there is no indication whatsoever that John Burfiend ( Handling Air Attack duties on A2G channel ) even bothered to mention what was going on over the A2G channel until AFTER OPS1 Todd Abel ORDERED Burfiend to stop IGNORING those MAYDAY calls and respond to those men.
When that finally happened… Burfiend basically ‘sat up in his seat’ ( you can hear it in his voice and response to Abel’s direct ORDER ) and basically said “Aye, aye, sir!”.
Before Burfiend could even OBEY Todd Abel’s ORDER to stop IGNORING those men that were obviously frantically trying to talk to him… Eric Marsh shows up on the A2G channel.
Right after OPS1 Abel ORDERED him to respond to GM and find out what was going on… Eric Marsh comes on the radio with his call sign and asking for permission to speak to “Bravo 33”.
Burfiend said “Go ahead… DIVSA”… and THAT is when we hear the final transmission from Marsh to Burfiend about them being ‘cut off from their escape route, burning out around ourselves, and I’ll give you a call when we are under the sh- shelters”.
So YES… if some one person really was trying to be both Lead Plane ( and monitor A2A channel ) and Air Attack ( and monitor A2G channel as well )… I could easily imagine that being a ‘como overload’ on anyone.
But that does NOT appear to be what was really happening that day in Bravo 33.
Apparently… Burfiend’s ONLY job was to be monitoring Air-To-Ground and taking requests from ground personnel and ( as he said ) “staying three drops ahead of French”.
The only “listening room” that Burfiend needed in his head was to respond to calls coming up to him over the Air-To-Ground channel… yet he STILL chose to just IGNORE those frantic calls from ‘Granite Mountain 7’ for 2 minutes… until he was ORDERED to STOP doing that by OPS Abel and ANSWER those men who were obviously in some kind of trouble.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> Is the ASM program such a good idea?
I’m no expert… but just from what I’ve heard and seen and read… I don’t think ANYONE is all that much in favor of that support model anymore.
I don’t think it has EVER worked the way it was supposed to… even when you have enough airplanes over a fire and enough pilots who aren’t timing out and enough carded people up in the planes to fullfill all the ‘positions’.
It really sounds like one of those “looked good on paper” things but the actual implementation of the whole thing always leads to a fair amount of confusion… even with ‘enough people and planes’ to pull it off as designed.
Maybe a BLIMP would help.
Something that is unlikely to keep running out of fuel quickly or doesn’t have pilots onboard who keep ‘timing out’ and have to leave the fire(s) and ‘hand off’ to others multiple times a day…. like what was happening in Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
>> FIRE20+ also said…
>>
>> Sort of like when B33 came back to Able with “I was copyin’ a bit of
>> that traffic/conversation”.
Actually… Burfiend’s FIRST response to Abel when ( at +0:27 seconds into the video ) he asked him “Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on Air-To-Ground?” was just a complete YES. He didn’t qualify it and say ‘bits’ or ‘some’. He told Abel he was copying ALL of it with this statement…
+1:04 ( into the video )
( Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Operations, Bravo 33, I was copying that traffic on air to ground.
Burfiend still waited full 37 ( THIRTY-SEVEN ) seconds to even bother to respond to Abel… and there were other MAYDAYS from GM during these 37 seconds that he also IGNORED… but when Burfiend finally did answer OPS1 Abel’s question to him… he didn’t ‘qualify’ it. He said ”YES… I am hearing (all) that traffic”.
When OPS1 Abel wasn’t getting an answer to his question to Burfiend… Abel then tried to contact Granite Mountain himself ( via the A2G channel ) during that 37 second ‘delay’ in Burfiend’s response to HIM.
So Abel then seemed to MISS Burfiend’s response to his question when it finally came 37 seconds after he asked him.
Abel then didn’t hear back from GM ( and seemed to miss Burfiend’s delayed answer to his question ) so Abel then tried Burfiend AGAIN 11 seconds later with…
+1:15
(OPS1 Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations on air to ground.
So only NOW does Abel really get that answer to his question a full 50 seconds after he actaully asked it… but John Burfiend is now ‘qualifying’ what he said before…
+1:17
(Bravo 33 – John Burfiend): Okay, I was copying a little bit of that, uh conversation uh, on air to ground. We’re, we’ll do the best we can. We got the type 1 helicopters ordered back in. Uh, we’ll see what we can do.
So at +1:04 Burfiend said he was ‘copying that traffic’ ( No qualifiers ).
13 seconds later Buriend is now adding ‘qualifiers’ saying he was copying ‘a little bit of it’.
I think his FIRST answer to Abel was correct ( he was, in fact, actually hearing ALL of it )… but when he realized Abel didn’t even hear his FIRST answer he came back with a ‘revised’ version, for some reason.
>> FIRE20++ also said…
>>
>> No you weren’t. If you were copying the conversation you would have
>> responded to “We are in front of the flaming front!”
See above. He said himself ( at +1:04 ) he was copying ALL of it. No qualifiers.
He was CHOOSING to IGNORE the transmissions.
>> FIRE20++
>>
>> The Helmet Cam audio of the PNF guys, “Oh is Granite Mountain still
>> in there? Ya, they’re in their safety zone, the black” Sounds to me like
>> those three guys weren’t sure where GM was at when they turned
>> that camera on. Speculation of course.
Just about 60 to 90 seconds BEFORE Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd decided to turn his Helmet Camera on is when Blue Ridge SUP Brian Frisby and BR Captain Trueheart Brown had stopped right there where all three PNF off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were standing in the St. Joseph Shrine parking lot.
Frisby and Brown’s testimony both agree on this… and the Blue Ridge GPS unit matches that testimony exactly. Frisby and Brown were still in the UTV at that point and ‘bringing up the rear’ of the Blue Ridge Vehicle convoy that was headed down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
Frisby and Brown both say that when they stopped there… they “passed on what intel we had”.
If Aaron Hulburd had actually turned his Helmet Camera on just 60 or 90 seconds earlier than he did… we would actually be SEEING Frisby and Brown in the UTV talking to them and ‘passing on what intel we have’. The timing on this was THAT CLOSE that day.
The TIMING here is so close that I remember actually examining that Helmet-Camera video closely at the beginning and it would not have surprised me at all to see the taillights of the Blue Ridge UTV heading EAST on Shrine Road as Hulburd swung the camera around to the EAST at the start of the video. There are no such taillights… but only because there is a BEND in Shrine Road there just before the St. Joseph’s Shrine parking lot where Hulburd was now filming. It’s perfectly possible Frisby and Brown really were ‘just around that bend’ and heading back EAST on Shrine Road when Hulburd actually started filming.
What is NOT clear from Frisby’s or Brown’s testimony is exactly WHO they “passed that intel” onto when they stopped there ( for 2 full minutes ) and spoke to the PNF hires.
They might have ONLY spoken to the only one of those three PNF guys with a WHITE helmet standing there ( which happened to be Jason Clawson ).
So these statement in the Helmet-Cam video about where GM might have been could have only been KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell talking to Hulburd. At the start ( and during ) that part of the Helmet Cam video… Jason Clawson is seen still standing about 20 feet away from Hulburd at the back of the other truck that was there.
I guess all I am saying is that we don’t know what whoever was talking in the background of that Helmet Cam video knew or didn’t know.
Frisby and Brown say they ‘passed on what intel we had’ to those guys… but we don’t know if they ONLY spoke to Clawson and that he knew more than Hulburd or Yowell did, at that point, since it was just 60 seconds or so before that Helmet Camera go switched. on.
Prescott off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell were never interviewed by ANYONE… even though they ALL ended up part of the 5 man ground rescue mission and it was Jason Clawson himself who sent out the first confirmation over the TAC channels that he was standing over 19 dead men on the floor of the box canyon.
It’s not like these guys were ‘observers’ that day… or ‘on the periphery’.
All THREE of these guys played an IMPORTANT part in the capture of the deployment related radio traffic AND the actual location of the BODIES… but NONE of them have ever been interviewed by ANYONE ( as far as we know ).
What is wrong with THAT picture?
Followup… as far as anyone can tell… the REASON that even ADOSH did not request to interview Prescott Bea Day team off-the-radar hires Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell is because ADOSH simply remained UNAWARE that they were ever THERE in Yarnell that day throughout their entire investigation.
The SAIT knew the were there ( they secretly had the Helmet-Cam video early on ).
Jim Karels and Mike Dudley most certainly knew they were there ( and what a significant role they played in the critical events that day ).
They just didn’t tell ADOSH anything about them.
Their ‘names’ were only obliquely mentioned one or two times in the actual SAIT investigation notes ( by others )… but every time they were mentioned the SPELLING of their names was changing so it was really, really difficult to tell just from the notes who in the hell people were referring to… or why.
So it is not like the SAIT told ADOSH… “Hey… you know these guys Clawson and Hulburd and Yowell that people are referring to sometimes in the interviews… well they are the ones who actually filmed the Helmet Cam video… and then were part of the ground rescue mission with Frisby and Brown that ended up helping count the bodies in the canyon.”
You MIGHT want to talk to them.
That never happened.
The SAIT said NOTHING to ADOSH investigators about Clawson, Hulburd or Yowell… or made it easy in any way for the ADOSH investigators to even ‘figure out for themselves’ that these 3 men were not only THERE that afternoon… but played a critical witness role in the actual deployment events and body discovery.
So the irony here now is that the Arizona Attorney General’s office has officially contested the ADOSH findings and in their own letter they say the reason they are denying the ADOSH claims is because they are not ‘substantiated with proper evidence’.
So the very people that were either directly or indirectly WITHHOLDING important ‘evidence’ and/or ‘witness information’ from the ADOSH investigators are now going to try and slip out of the ADOSH findings by saying “you didn’t have enough evidence to make all those claims”.
Yea. Right. Good luck with that.
Choosing to ignore is a big statement—
with Air To Ground, Air to Air and Air freq. use in the air craft radio to tower. there is a lot of traffic going on. Not ignoring but tuning out as the confusion is mounting would be more accurate. If you have never been in the cockpit of a lead plane or Air Attack you can not understand the full force of the radio traffic especially with Air tankers and helicopters fire going to hell and every one and there brother wants retardant or water drops. Add the smoke and the stress level gets pretty extreme.
You are laying a lot on B33 who wasn’t there to be a radio relay to the IC or OPS.
I am still giving him B33 some grace here.
Again, well said.
Again… see above.
I think you are totally mistaken in believing that John Burfiend in Bravo 33 was participating in BOTH the A2A and A2G traffic that afternoon.
The evidence points to the exact OPPOSITE.
It seems to have been ‘understood’ between French and Burfiend that while they were doing this ‘double duty’ of “Lead Plane’ and ‘Air Attack’ from inside the same airplane… French would handle ALL the A2A traffic and Burfiend ( and his trainee Clint Cross ) would ONLY handle the A2G traffic.
That means handling A2G traffic WAS, in fact, supposed to be Burfiend’s PRIMARY job and his PRIMARY focus at the time of the MAYDAY calls.
Maybe I am missing something (and please tell me if I am off base) but what has irked me for quite some time are the camera(s) at the Boulder Springs Ranch. Obviously we have the Helm’s camera block footage posted on this site. That camera is positioned to view the main entrance of the ranch. It catches the oncoming fire but “turns off” right when the fire hits. Was this due to the power outage or just left out? Also, this camera at the ranch is of very high quality and designed to have power back up. Why don’t we see complete footage?
Interestingly, this main entrance to the ranch isn’t the only entrance/exit. There is also a decent sized pathway extending from the north side of the ranch that wraps around east back to the Boulder Springs Trail. I would find it highly improbable the Helms did not have a camera monitoring entrance as well which would have a perfect view of the box canyon. If you look at some other photos of the ranch on this site, there are definitely protrusions coming from other corners of the buildings that are likely cameras. Due to the isolation of the ranch, the livestock, and the possibly troublesome wildlife in the area, the Helms had to have several cameras monitoring the property. Where is the footage from these cameras? There would have to be excellent fire progression captures.
All good questions Totally agree.
Once again the SAIR failed to do a through investigation
We may never see the rest of the film in question
I remember when the footage first became available for review… I was disappointed to discover that it was ONLY the 1 camera pointed at the gate.
I ( and others ) had just been ‘assuming’ it was going to be footage from the WEST side of the compound.
It would make no sense for them to NOT have cameras covering that other side of the compound. If someone was going to ‘steal’ something from the compound they would be more than likely to enter the area from that un-gated WEST/NORTH side than try to come through the substantial (metal) front gate.
Tex (Sonny) Gilligan and Joy Collura… who know that area better than anyone… seemed to be under the impression there WERE ‘multiple’ surveillance cameras in place at the Helms Ranch ( Boulder Springs Ranch ). I don’t know if this is ‘first hand’ knowledge or not… but here is a comment that was posted on Bill Gabbert’s Wildfire Today site…
————————————————–
Wildfire Today
Sonny Gilligan and Joy A Collura* (*- one typing) on January 21, 2014 at 2:56 pm said:
The Helms hold not only clues but possible photos and video footage from their surveillance cameras as well
————————————————–
Definitely mentions ‘surveillance cameras’ ( PLURAL ) meaning ‘not just ONE’.
Also… shortly after the SAIR came out and Arizona Forestry was then required to start fulfilling FOIA requests ( they themselves say they received more than 1500 such requests ) I seem to recall a ‘video story’ that ran on a major news outlet.
In the BACKGROUND of that video news report… there was something that they, themselves, had a subtitle on saying “Security Camera Footage from the Boulder Springs Ranch’… and it was NOT of the front gate.
It looked very much like what you would expect to see from a camera on the WEST side of the compound facing NORTH to monitor where that other service road enters the compound on the north end.
I have tried many times… but haven’t been able to find the exact URL of that site where I thought I saw that footage… nor have I been able to find that ‘clip’ anywhere else online.
I was so sure that is what I saw and that that is what the subtitle on the video footage was that I remember THAT being the basis for me being SURE that there would, eventually, be some publicly available footage from those cameras on the WEST side of the compound.
Hence the disappointment.
Because I was sure I had already seen a ‘clip’ from a security camera on the WEST side of the Helms’ compound… I was just assuming that is what was going to be see when the footage finally became available.
I will make another hard pass at the Web and see if I can really find that ‘video story’ I am sure I saw on one of the major outlets shortly after the SAIR came out.
Of course… I guess the easiest most direct way to answer this question is to just ask the Helms’ if they had such cameras or not… and ( if they did )… did they ever give footage from those cameras to anyone?
If they did… then WHO did they give the footage TO?…. and WHEN?
The only reason I could think of for there being such footage but then having it ‘vanish’ and not even be given up in response to FOIA requests is that the footage itself might simply CONTRADICT the narrative that the Arizona Forestry people had already decided upon.
On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 11:03 AM I emailed the Helm’s Ranch Residence-
inquiring and squashing rumors flying in regards to them about us. On Wed, Sep 3, 2014 at 8:17 PM I received a reply—I will not copy/paste it all but the part that answered my ?—
“I don’t know where these rumors came from, but they are not true. We have never said we were going to sue anyone, or have anyone arrested. Craig Knapp is handling our issues and that is where it stops.”
I hiked that terrain for almost ten years and their property was surrounded by a unique density of plants/flora/boulders…there is alot I have not spoke publicly out of respect that I know THE TOWN reads this site and we seem to be target for silly rumors and rubbish in regards to our hiking folks on the mountain tops—yet there is details to that area that to this day bewilders me that even talking to few I thought could shed an answer—they too are bewildered. How I came up with MORE THAN one camera is this…early on I saw footage somewhere online that said Boulders Ranch footage that did not match entrance so assume there has to be more than one PLUS as the desert walker pioneering Arizona in the modern world I have more than 1 camera glued to my surroundings to get familiar to what wildlife roams as well as what people roam or “thief”…so if common folk me has more than one camera for my adventures…I am sure an established ranch has more than one—I would imagine if it was my home base I would have another camera tucked shooting out towards the hill near their home because there is a trail that is on their unfenced property that leads to the fenced property—Helms own a very wide chunk out there…than its surrounded by State Land and some private properties—
Since I have been told by locals the Helms have not much to say…I thought for a long time how come not our details we shared to SAIR did not make the SAIR so maybe the same happened to the Helm’s too— who knows— If the Helm’s wrote a detailed book on the fire—I would buy it— as well if Bruce, Laura C., Pat and a few others—if they shared their details—I would buy it. I find certain people are extremely important for clarity—also I strongly feel what the lady in the evacuation spoke IS very important and I wish Barb B.- the doctor- could share more but their is confidentiality laws—I am having a man from Milan, Italy sketching out my story and we are going to create a history mural and that will be our memorial marker for that moment—that will be my healing…because it sickens us to hike pass the current memorial for the men in Yarnell as weeds are just ridiculous—they want to have this neat memorial but how many times has Buford or us pulled the weeds there—just seems sad…
Followup…
See a new parent comment about this up above.
There DOES, in fact, appear to be what looks like another ‘video camera’ mounted under the eave of the roof on the northwest corner of the residence itself.
It’s actually mounted there under the roof overhang on the northwest corner of the GARAGE… which is attached to the residence.
There is no ‘close-up’ of it… but it can be seen in a number of ADOSH post-fire photos taken during ‘walk-throughs’ out at the deployment site.
They were all ‘parking’ at the BSR compound itself for those ‘walk-throughs’ and they were also taking pictures of the compound.
There is a small ‘black box’ clearly mounted there on the garage… and it appears to be facing directly out in the direction of the box canyon AND towards that area where that service road enters the compound from the northwest ( as it should… if it really is a security camera covering the WEST side of the compound. ).
It is NOT a ‘lighting fixture’.
**
** WAS THERE A MAYDAY CALL ON TAC 1 CHANNEL BEFORE 1639 A2G CALLS?
This is just a supplement to the thread below that was running out of room.
There was some new discussion about this long-standing ( and still unresolved ) possibility that there was a MAYDAY / EMERGENCY call of some kind that came over the TAC 1 radio channel just BEFORE the actual Air-To-Ground radio calls that Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd captured in his ‘Helmet-Cam’ video.
If there was such a call on TAC 1… then it would actually explain a number of things such as…
1. WHY ( exactly ) Aaron Hulburd turned his Helmet-Cam on at that exact moment he did.
If there was ’emergency traffic’ on TAC 1 just prior to the A2G traffic… then THAT could easily
be WHY he decided to start ‘recording’ that day at the exact moment he did.
2. It COULD totally explain what the conversation at the very start of the Helmet-Cam video ( right before Steeds first A2G MAYDAY ) was really ABOUT. It *might* have been directly related to an emerging awareness of GM’s predicament that took place BEFORE Aaaron Hulburd had a chance to start recording.
3. It might even explain WHY we hear Steed calling on the A2G channel at all ( and why he hastily switched to Channel 10 but actually thought he was broadcasting on Channel 16 ). If there was a MAYDAY some moments BEFORE 1639 over the TAC 1 channel… and there was NO RESPONSE to it… Steed might have thought no one was ‘listening’ on TAC 1 or that his TAC 1 transmission wasn’t getting through from the canyon so he then hastily switched to Channel 10 to try there.
4. If there was any ‘location’ information already in that first TAC 1 transmission… then that might also explain some things we hear in the A2G Helmet-Cam traffic such as John Burfiend seemingly having a discussion about ‘taking care of something… but it’s gonna be tough on us’…. and him also seeming to be already AWARE of where Granite Mountain really was at that moment before the Helmet Cam even begins.
Here is that actual (undredacted) entry in the SAIT’s own notes from THEIR interview(s) with Blue Ridge where they definitely seem to be testifying they FIRST heard emergency traffic on TAC 1 as they were taking a ‘turn’ off of Shrine Road to head south on Highway 89… and only AFTER that ( while still traveling south on Highway 89 ) did they first start hearing that ‘Helmet-Cam’ radio traffic on the OTHER Air-To-Ground channel.
PDF page 9 of the SAIT Yarnell Invesigation Notes ( YIN ) document…
———————————————————————————-
SSIT Interview with Blue Ridge IHC
Supt: Brian Frisby Foreman: True Brown Squad Boss: Travis Fueller and Cory Ball
Interviewed by Godot, Jay, Jimmie, Tim, Jim, and Mike 07/10/2013
Tie in with the crew at the ranch house and hit main rd @ 1640 they make a turn, and hear yelling on Tac 1, a little further they hear yelling on Tac 5 AA and GM7 yelling multiple times. AA says unit yelling at AA on A/G stop yelling and stand by. Marsh cuts in and says were cut off there cutting a deployment site, trying to burn around, cutting a deployment site.
———————————————————————————–
SIDENOTE…
The SAIT apparently had FULL access to Blue Ridge crew for interviews.
ADOSH was never allowed to interview ANYONE from Blue Ridge at all.
Am I still the only one who thinks it is more than odd that the US Forestry Service would allow one Arizona agency complete access to their employees ( who are based in Arizona )… but then totally deny that same access to what is essentially just ANOTHER state-level Arizona agency?
Don’t look now, USFS, but your real agenda is ( and always HAS been? ) showing.
Followup…
The US Forestry Service NEVER let ADOSH interview anyone from Blue Ridge… but they DID cough up those heavily redacted ( official ) ‘Unit Logs’ from 13 of the Blue Ridge Hotshots just shortly before ADOSH was going to print their report.
These are the same ‘Blue Ridge Unit Logs’ that were not supplied with any initial FOIA request to ADOSH and only appeared ‘late’ around February 27, 2014.
Here is the section from Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s ‘Unit Log’ that corresponds to the same timeframe detailed above in the SAIT notes.
This covers the same time period when they were evacuating the Youth Camp, heading EAST on Shrine Road out to Highway 89, and then SOUTH on Highway 89 down to the Ranch House Restaurant.
NOTE: The testimony below is Trueheart Brown’s… and the reality is that he and Frisby were still in the Blue Ridge UTV at this point. All the Blue Ridge vehicles had already gone ahead down to the Ranch House Restaurant and this is just Frisby and Brown ‘following them’ and ‘bringing up the rear’ in the UTV… just as described in the SAIT notes above.
The part of the testimony that corresponds exactly to the moments the SAIT was reporting about and the reported ‘first MAYDAY on TAC 1’ and then ‘subsequent MAYDAYS on A2G’ is completely REDACTED. TWO complete paragraphs ( SEVEN lines of testimony ).
Notice… however… that after those heavy REDACTIONS… they forgot to ‘black out’ the next paragraph where Trueheart Brown is then still saying that the MAYDAY related radio traffic they seemed to have heard while traveling SOUTH on HIghway 89 was on BOTH the TAC and A2G channels… and not JUST the A2G channel.
Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s ‘Unit Log’ for June 30, 2013
——————————————————————————-
We all get back to the youth camp and get them all driving out and we ( Frisby and Brown ) bring up the rear ( in the UTV ).
We drive out a ways and run into ( 1 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ).
We give them the intel we have and then we all head out towards the highway.
There are still people milling about in town.
We decided to tie back in with the crew ( at the Ranch House Restaurant ).
So we head out to the highway ( via Shrine Road ) and head south ( on Highway 89 ).
NOTE: The next SEVEN entire lines ( TWO complete paragraphs ) that correspond
exactly to the moment they were hearing MAYDAY traffic are all REDACTED…
1640
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
( xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx )
1655
Radio traffic is overheard on A/G or TAC about Granite Mountain IHC needing to deploy shelters and they were in the process of cutting deployment site and trying to burn out around it. No other radio traffic is heard from Granite Mountain over TAC or A/G. We arrive at the Ranch House Restaurant staging area and I jump in Granite Mountain’s chase rig and try to listen on their crew channel and all I hear is a keyed mic. I try to raise them but with no success. I tell ( 3 xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx ) to sit in the truck and monitor their crew channel for any traffic.
——————————————————————————-
So there it is ( or isn’t, as the case may be ).
The part that is blacked out covers the exact part where they told the SAIT that FIRST they heard emergency traffic on TAC 1 ( as they were turning off Shrine Road to head SOUTH on Highway 89 ) and then, while they were still traveling SOUTH on Highway 89 is when they first started hearing MAYDAY traffic on the A2G channel INSTEAD of the TAC 1 channel.
But we come OUT of that redacted section with Captain Brown still claiming they heard MAYDAY traffic on BOTH the TAC and A2G channels.
SIDENOTE: Redaction 1 above is, no doubt, the following three names…
Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd, and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
They were KNOWN to be standing right there in the St. Joseph Shrine Parking Lot at this exact moment… and in just about 120 seconds Hulburd was going to be turning his Helmet Cam on at that exact location and beging recording the deployment related radio traffic.
If Aaron Hulburd had turned his Helmet Camera on just about 60 or 120 seconds earlier… we would have actually SEEN both Firsby and Brown talking to them in the Blue Ridge ATV and ( as they say above ) ‘passing on what intel we had to them’.
Forgot to mention that, unlike all the ADOSH material where if you want to see anything they “tried” to redact all you have to do is save their PDF files as ‘text’ files OR just cut-and-paste the ‘blacked out’ stuff into an email or text editor to see exactly what is ‘under the black boxes’….
…these REDACTED sections in the Blue Ridge Unit Logs really are true ‘redactions’.
The FEDS didn’t make the mistakes that ADOSH did and just distribute the original PDF files with the ‘redacted’ text still present in the document.
Also note up above that the paragraph right under where they tried to redact everything that had to do with what MAYDAY calls Frisby and Brown heard and on what radio channels… they mistakenly labeled that paragraph 1655, even though the TEXT of the paragraph is still talking about the deployment timeframe and the very minutes after that.
It is POSSIBLE that the US Forestry Service actually screwed up here.
They may have MEANT to DELETE anything that would suggest that Frisby and Brown heard MAYDAY traffic on BOTH the TAC1 and A2G channels… but since the paragraph had that 1655 timeframe mistakenly typed at the top of it… they may have just eye-scanned right over it and ‘missed that part’ and left that other testimony about hearing radio traffic on both TAC and A2G channels accidentally unredacted.
It would seem to me that if they really were trying to DELETE any testimony about Brown hearing any deployment traffic at all… then they would have continued their REDACTIONS on into that next paragraph that DOES mention both the TAC AND A2G channels coming into play for the MAYDAY traffic.
So maybe they just ‘missed that part’.
The very next Blue Ridge ‘Unit Log’ ( following Captain Brown’s ) in that redacted document given to ADOSH belongs to Cory Ball.
It’s pretty short… but there is also an interesting large REDACTION right at the point where he MAY have been testifying to what MAYDAY traffic HE heard… and on what CHANNEL.
Blue Ridge Unit Log for Cory Ball…
————————————————————————–
BRIHC disengaging to safety zone ( Ranch House Restaurant ).
BRIHC one informs Structure Group One They are pushing engines
everyone out of subdivision.
NOTE: The entire next line which would cover the moment when
any MAYDAY traffic started appearing has been fully REDACTED…
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Structure group one assigns me and one other to locate possibility
of dozer line to southwest of Yarnell.
Acquire ATV ( from Yarnell Fire Station ).
Travel into subdivision back to Dozer line.
Multiple structures fully engulfed and multiple spot fires in subdivision.
Notify structure group one about fire and structures on corner of
Manzanita and Lockwood ( He obviously meant to say Lakewood ).
NOTE: The entire next line is fully REDACTED )…
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Started evacuations of subdivision.
Helitanker drops water near Manzanita junction.
————————————————————————
After Cory Ball’s Unit Log comes the last TYPED Unit log which has not been fully associated with any Blue Ridge Hotshot… but APPEARS to belong to squad boss Travis Fueller.
It, too, has the EXACT sections that pertain to exactly what MAYDAY traffic he might have heard ( and on which channels ) fully REDACTED.
Blue Ridge Unit Log ( Likely Travis Fueller )
———————————————————–
The crew gets close to an actual assignment and in the early afternoon after
structure protection is discussed, instead will prep a dozer line leading from
just below the staged buggies and going to the drainage and the Boy Scout
Camp. Four drivers will move the rigs around to the Boy Scout camp, and
a couple minutes later a few more drivers ( for a total of six people ) have
all the vehicles in staging area of this camp. The group will start prepping
the dozer line back to rest of crew, plus they (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
It isn’t more than a few minutes and the entire crew is heading towards
the buggies and disengaging from this prepping assignment. All the
guys load up and back to Hwy 89 and the Ranch House restaurant.
NOTE: The following entire paragraph ( 3 full lines ) corresponds to the
moment when the MAYDAY traffic would have been heard but this
entire paragraph is REDACTED.
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
The winds have switched to out of the northwest and moving parallel to
Hwy 89… the public and media are now everywhere and people are
directed to head south on Hwy 89. The crew now prepares for a
rescue/triage event and gets the ranger and chase truck loaded up
with oxygen tanks, medical bags, and water.
————————————————————
The REST of the 13 Blue Ridge Unit Logs are still just copies of the handwritten originals and, even now, pretty much NONE of the ‘handwritten’ logs have ever been associated with any particular BR Hotshot… but the ‘redaction’ story is the same.
WHENEVER one of the Hotshots goes to describe what MAYDAY traffic he heard… and on what radio CHANNEL… those lines are all fully REDACTED.
One interesting redaction is the SECOND handwritten log.
The part that corresponds to when the MAYDAY traffic was appearing is redacted, but the US Forestry Service also left no doubt that is WHAT they were redacting.
Instead of redacting the ENTIRE paragraph where this Hotshot begins to
speak about the ‘radio traffic’ he heard… they inexplicably just left the
words “Heard traffic” and only THEN deleted the entire rest of the paragraph.
So there is NO DOUBT that fully redacted paragraph was this BR Hotshot
describing what MAYDAY calls HE heard… and (perhaps) on what CHANNEL(S).
The redaction in that (handwritten) log looks like this…
———————————————————————
Approx 1 hour into prep ( cut about 1 tank ), crew was told to disengage
and down dozer line to vehicles. (xxxxxxx) was behind us. We loaded
up in the vehicles and headed out to Shrine Rd to 89. South to parking
area across from Lakewood Drive.
Fire behavior was intense.
Heard traffic (xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
1705 – Told to call family and let them know I was safe.
———————————————————————
Here is another Blue Ridge handwritten ‘Unit Log’ not associated with any particular BR Hotshot… but is similar to the one mentioned above.
The US Forestry Service left NO DOUBT they were redacting the part where this Hotshot was saying exactly what CHANNEL he was hearing MAYDAY traffic on.
This time… they started their redaction on the very WORD that would have described which CHANNEL he was hearing the MAYDAY traffic on.
The redactions in THIS handwritten log goes like this.
———————————————————————–
Everyone drove the same vehicles as earlier out to Hwy 89.
The subdivision was not completely evacuated at this time.
Fire personell were close to the FIRST ones out.
We regrouped at a restaurant south of Yarnell with all
the vehicles from Granite Mtn and Blue Ridge.
(xxxxxx) ordered everyone to group up to brief on the situation.
At this time… a radio transmission came over (xxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
Blue Ridge began collecting all of our medical gear and developing
a rescue plan.
———————————————————————–
So just like all the other logs… there was an obvious intent to redact ANY
report about what MAYDAY traffic was heard ( and on what CHANNEL ).
This time… they made SURE whatever CHANNEL the guy was about
to say he heard the transmission on was fully redacted…. and then they
chopped the entire rest of the paragraph as well.
If they had left even just ONE MORE WORD undredacted in THIS one…
we might be seeing further proof that the first MAYDAY came over a
TAC channel and not the Air-To-Ground channel.
But someone was making SURE that ‘channel information’ was part
of the redacted material.
Very strange.
**
** SCRATCHOUT IN BR UNIT LOG INDICATES ‘TAC CHANNEL
** FOR FIRST MAYDAY CALL THAT DAY?
This is a ‘followup’ to the BR handwritten Unit Log described just above.
The one that actually has the unredacted “At this time… a radio transmission came over” line starting the paragraph that is obviously mentioning MAYDAY traffic he heard but is then fully REDACTED.
As it turns out… whichever Blue Ridge Hotshot was hand-writing this particular Unit Log had a habit of ‘changing his mind’ while he was writing the log and there are a number of ‘scratch outs’ ( with the same pen he was using to write the log ) and then (sometimes) some ‘alternate words’ then substituted for the ‘scratch outs’.
ONE of those ‘scratch outs’ actually comes right after he says…
“At this time… a radio transmission came over”
…and this ‘scratch out’ was omitted from the REDACTIONS ( as in… not BLACKED OUT at all ).
So that part of his actual handwritten unit log that is obviously talking about what MAYDAY traffic he heard ( and on what channel(s)? ) really looks like this in the PDF document itself…
At this time… a radio transmission came over ( SCRATCH OUT )
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
(xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx)
The REDACTED part begins on the line FOLLOWING the ‘SCRATCH OUT’ itself.
So there is SOMETHING there right after he wrote ‘transmission came over’,
but it is hard to make out even though his ‘SCRATCH OUT’ remained unredacted and not BLACKED OUT by the US Forestry Service.
This BR Hotshot had a habit of doing a ZIGZAG ‘scratch out’ whenever he would do that and this ‘scratch out’ at the end of that line that seems about to say which radio channel he heard a MAYDAY on is no exception.
If you use a bitmap editor and sort of just carefully ERASE his ZIGZAG scratch out… ( pixel by pixel )… you are left with what appears to be the original underlying text which seems to start with a question mark and then says…
? Tac
There also appears to be a half-circle around the word ‘Tac’ following the question mark.
So if that really is what this BR Hotshot ‘scratched out’ on that line… the entire undredacted line would read like this…
“At this time… a radio transmission came over ? Tac”
I suppose the “? Tac” suffix could be taken a number of ways.
He may have first written the question mark… then he came BACK and added the word ‘Tac’ after thinking about it some more…
OR… He really wasn’t positive but wrote ‘Tac’ anyway because that would be his ‘best guess’ about it and the channel he SEEMED to recall hearing the first MAYDAY transmission on.
OR… Regardless of what he wrote there at first… He then decided he really just couldn’t be sure one way or the other and so he decided to SCRATCH OUT whatever it was he had written.
Anyone can see this mysterious ‘SCRATCH OUT’ for themselves.
The Blue Ridge Unit Logs document I am referring to is sitting in Mr. Dougherty’s online Dropbox at the following direct link…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/20inrene9tcx74a/AACfLf1vjqSM7ZK7XVFXurF4a/ADOSH%20Yarnell%20Hill%20Investigation/USDA/BlueRidgeIHC.pdf?dl=0
The first page of the handwritten BR Unit Log referenced above would be PDF page 18 and then the redacted paragraph where he begins to describe what MAYDAY traffic he heard ( and on what channel ) would be on PDF page 20.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 11, 2014 at 2:31 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> The simplest explanation – They were headed out and back to there vehicles.
>>
>> The reengage sounds nice but no one else was going back to work why
>> would they expect to 1800 shift over adios. No glories motives here.
>>
>> They said no where at any time any thing about repositioning
>> so they could reengage.
>>
>> Simple… they were trying to find the fastest way back to their vehicles.
>> Their assignment was over.
There has ALWAYS been the following testimony from the elusive Mr. Rory Collins,
the Air Attack that Marsh was communicating with right up until 1558 ( 3:58 PM )…
PDF page 19 of the SAIT Yarnell Investigation Notes ( YIN )
———————————————————————–
SAIT Interview with Rory Collins – Air Attack – LDF – Roseburg
Certified ATGS – Work for Douglas Forest Service as Protection Supervisor
Interview Time/Date: 11:00 a.m. 7/13/2013
Interviewers: Jimmy Rocha, Jay Kurth, Mike Dudley, Jim Karels
Rory Collins said…
The fire was headed for Yarnell moving fast to the south.
They were getting retardant drops.
Contacted Division A to tell them of fire condition and that they needed
to move their rigs to a better location.
Q: Did he say he was in good black?
A: No, he said the other crew was in a good location in the black and
they were headed back to the rigs.
————————————————————————
So according to Collins… Eric Marsh HIMSELF told him they
were “headed BACK to their RIGS”.
This was NEVER mentioned in the SAIR document and
ADOSH was never able to interview Air Attack Rory Collins.
Followup…
The SAIT Notes for Air Attack Rory Collins’ interview are SO bad it is almost impossible to tell when ANYTHING he is testifying to was actually happening…
…but if this bit of testimony from him quoted above was simply part of that known conversation he had with Marsh circa 3:50 PM ( when he also told Marsh he thought the fire was still 1 to 2 hours away from Yarnell )… then that was a full 8 minutes AFTER Brian Frisby had already loaded Brendan McDonough into the ATV and already had that conversation with Marsh about Blue Ridge moving all the GM vehicles AWAY from where they were originally parked.
So Marsh could NOT still have been referring to a plan of them just walking back down the way they came and back to the vehicles, at that point. Marsh would have known the GM vehicles were already being ‘moved’..
If he said this at all… then Marsh must have already known they were going to have to take some OTHER route to get ‘back to their vehicles’ ( like head SOUTH and to the BSR ).
Actually… the SAIR said this conversation about the fire being 1 to 2 hours away from town between Collins and Marsh happened at 3:50… but that really isn’t possible.
It had to have happened just immediately BEFORE or immediately after 3:50 – 3:51 PM.
That’s because we know for a fact that at exactly 3:50… Rory Collins was having the following conversation with ‘Bravo 33’ on the Air-To-Air Channel…
—————————————————————
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): (Copy) Ground contact Alpha.
————————————————————-
Theoretically, Marsh would have had to have 2 other guys with him and counting Mcdonough, would have had 4 drivers for 4 trucks (two crew carriers, supt and chase)
Also (theoretically). This conversation with air attack Collins would have happened after Marsh and his drivers left the other crew (south of the photo spot), but before Mcdonough was picked up.
Theoretically, Marsh could have called Frisby up to catch a ride to move the trucks, knowing they could pick up Mcdonough on their way back down.
Then, POSSIBLY, once Frisby and Mcdonough did a 180 and headed back toward the trucks, Marsh and the two other GMH begin hiking south (and not back towards the grader) scouting their route to the BSR.
Theoretically… if any of this is true… Brendan Mcdonough knows.
OR… anyone else who was listening to the very popular Air-To-Ground channel.
It’s still amazing to me how much conversation is being ‘referred to’ in the SAIR itself and in their SAIT notes by certain individuals… but then no one else seems to recall ever hearing the same conversation.
I think that is still simply the product of an amateur investigation.
They just weren’t putting the ‘pieces’ together and trying to VERIFY what a lot of people were saying by asking OTHERS the right questions… OR calling them back for secondary interviews to ‘clear things up’.
Like they didn’t even really care about accomplishing that.
By finding zero fault, everyone did everything right. The SAIT put the onus on the shoulders of the men who are not here to defend themselves, or their actions.
And that is not just
Reply to SR post on September 14, 2014 at 10:59 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> Honestly, that part of the PPT — the idea that the BSR just
>> “looked so close” — was, to me, a remarkable
>> bit of excuse-making. Foreshortening is a phenomenon
>> that may surprise a kid from Phoenix who is up in the
>> mountains for a day hike. It should be a known
>> phenomenon that has been experienced multiple
>> times, and is processed naturally, by someone leading
>> a crew. In the SAIR and the PPT, the whole “it just
>> seems so close” observation could be a natural way
>> to try to normalize a very troubling decision. But: if
>> they credibly think that the people or person directing
>> the decision to undertake that bushwhack truly was
>> surprised by forshortening, they need to then dig
>> into how someone could be in a leadership position
>> of that nature and not have the routefinding skills to
>> not make that kind of mistake.
Couldn’t agree more.
It wasn’t just the SAIR or the PPT… this ‘idea’ that this could have been some kind of reasonable explanation for the deaths of 19 men who were supposed to be Wildland Fire ‘professionals’ seems to have been ‘put forth’ every chance anyone got… even during Willis’ first press conference from the deployment site ( long before the SAIR came out ) to various other public comments made by Arizona Forestry and right on to Mike Dudley’s recent public presentations a month before the first anniversary of the tragedy.
It has been a ‘mantra’ for people investigating the accident and then trying to offer ‘reasons’ why all these men died a horrible death.
The ‘powers that be’ seem determined to just make this one of the legacy ‘catch phrase’ explanations for what might have happened that day.
It LOOKED like they coulda made it. Honest mistake. Coulda happened to anyone.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for… move along… move along.
‘Proximity awareness’ ( or the lack thereof ) is a phenomenon that is well-known and well-documented. Anyone who deals with the judgement of distances as part of their job is aware of this…and it works both ways. Sometimes things can appear to be CLOSER than they are… and sometimes things can appear to be FARTHER AWAY than they really are.
Pilots are actually TESTED for their ability to handle ‘Proximity Awareness’. Nothing is more important in the Airplane driving business than being able to accurately judge the actual range of objects seen in the distance ( like runaways ). If you screw that up on a non-instrument visual approach ( in all kinds of weather )… you could easily DIE.
Likewise… for people that call themselves Wildland Firefighters ( Keyword = Wildland / Outdoors ) who are ( as Darrell Willis himself said from the deployment site ) constantly REQUIRED to make moves based on TIME , DISTANCE and DANGER LEVELS… they should be TESTED to make sure they have at least the same ‘Proximity Awareness’ that other professionals in other similar occupations have… or at least be TESTED to make sure they don’t have such a LOW skill level in that area that they are likely to get themselves ( and others ) killed one day.
I also totally agree with you that regardless of how often people repeat this ‘mantra’… there is still currently NO EVIDENCE that that is what Marsh or Steed thought that day OR that they lacked the hiking skills they should have had to never make such an error in judgement.
There WERE, obviously, multiple errors in judgement involved here that day… but standing up on a saddle and saying to one’s self ( as we are being asked to believe ) that the Ranch was “So close you could just reach out and touch it” might NOT have been involved in the fatal judgement errors in any way, shape, or form.
That ‘quote’ about seemingly being to ‘reach out and touch the Ranch’ has always been coming from what a bunch of desk jockeys thought as they hufffed and puffed their way through some post-fire hikes ( or, people who USED to be out in the field but hadn’t been for a long, long time ).
I also agree with your comments about the obvious communications issues that day.
There couldn’t be more evidence of how people on a fire were all talking with radios but were totally FAILING to fully communicate.
Marsh was VERY bad at it… but he wasn’t the ONLY one.
No one at the NWCC or the US Forestry commission needs to wait for any more ‘reports’ or the results of any ‘lawsuits’ to take away these kind of fundamental ‘Lessons Learned’ from Yarnell.
Regardless of whether the ‘Proximity Awareness’ issues or the ‘communication issues’ were definitive ‘causality factors’ for what happened in Yarnell… these are two IMPORTANT things to make sure everyone with ‘field assignments’ is ‘up to speed’ on and they are also very EASY things to TEST for and correct deficiencies when they are found in personnel.
In the best scenario… these are just things that should be ‘natural talents’ in a WFF leader that should be scanned for before anyone is every even considered for a field command position.
If you don’t already have these skills so that no one has to constantly deal with your ‘obtuse talk’ on a radio or your inability to judge travel times and distances… then you should never be promoted in the first place.
That’s how other professions work…. even ones that don’t include high-risk workplaces.
You need to demonstrate the important SKILLS / TALENTS that are REQUIRED for the job BEFORE you ‘get the job’.
With regards to ‘Learning Lessons’… there is an email in the ADOSH FOIA/FOIL package that contains a ‘summary’ on the part of Marshall Krotenberg ( ADOSH team lead ) of why he, as a professional SAFETY officer, believes the Wildland Firefighting Business ( and yes… it is fundamentally a BUSINESS like any other ) keeps FAILING to implement ‘Lessons Learned’ like any other business would.
This email is in the following public document in the ADOSH ‘Krotenberg’ folder under the ‘ADOSH Notes and Emails’ folder…
“N9589 September (2) 2013” ( PDF file )
NOTE: This email was written by ADOSH lead Marshal Krotenberg on September 23, 2013… BEFORE the SAIR report was even published.
On page 25 of the PDF file…
————————————————————-
From: Krotenber, Marshal – OSHA
Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 – 2:21 PM
To: ( REDACTED )
Subject: Just Culture ???
My simplistic thoughts on Just Culture.
Reason’s “Just Culture”
– An organization that establishes a bright line between reasonable and unreasonable acts. Everyone knows what it unreasonable.
– An organization that invites the reporting of failures – in that most failures arise from reasonable acts. Lessons learned is an audit tool used to identify opportunities for improvement.
– An organization that implements measures to improve the operations through reduction of risk. Update of policy / procedures / rules to reduce and/or eliminate repeated failures.
I believe that the wildland fire community has done a pretty good job at obtaining information after an incident with their Just Culture – No Blame approach. However, there is no indication that the lessons learned have found their way into anything beyond the sharing of information.
Such inaction demonstrates a clear departure from successful BUSINESS systems.
That is, there is NO continuous improvement loop.
When we learn that doing X is bad for business, a responsible business develops measures to eliminate the potential from doing X again.
Otherwise… doing X continues to hurt the business. Knowledge that doing x is bad without taking FIRM ACTION to stop X, demonstrates the organizations culpability for whatever damages arise from failing to stop X from recurring.
As my mother always says – if doing X hurts, then stop doing X.
Marshall Krotenberg, CIH, CSP
State Compliance Supervisor
Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
800 W. Washington Street
Phoenix, AZ 85007
Direct: ( REDACTED )
Fax: ( REDACTED )
———————————————————-
Just a followup to the above…
There are just too many instances we can hear with our own ears now ( via captured radio recordings ) of how MANY people talking with radios that day seemed to be very, very BAD at actually ‘communicating’….
…but I thought I would point out just one more ( critical ) example.
At 1639… GMIHC acting Superintendent Jesse Steed breaks onto the very busy and very well-listened-to Air-To-Ground frequency and simply says…
“Breaking in on Arizona 16. Granite Mountain Hotshots. We are in front of the flaming front.”
Granted… he was YELLING ( because of the two chainsaws that were running right there next to him and he needed to even hear himself speak )… but for such a critical attempt to communicate, the LACK of any real information was astounding.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33 could have easily just come back with…
“…and I’m up here in an airplane in front of the smoke cloud…. SO WHAT?”
There was no MAYDAY prefix… no other indication it was an EMERGENCY… and absolutely no real/specific location information.
So Burfiend just IGNORED that transmission… and CONTINUED to ‘ignore’ the followup transmissions after that for a full 1 minute and 58 seconds… until OPS1 Todd Abel called him directly and basically told him to get his head out of his ass and ANSWER those men that were (obviously) frantically trying to ‘communicate’ with him.
No matter what else happens in the future… there should NEVER be such a botched MAYDAY call ( or such a botched response to it ) ever again. Not ever.
I profoundly agree with the development of a Mayday system within the wildland world.
With that being said, there are a certain number of individuals out there who can’t put 2 + 2 together, if it happens to be OUTSIDE of what THEY deem proper procedure.
I’m willing to bet that there were quite a few people who heard the ‘flaming front’ transmission and knew exactly what it meant without hearing one more thing.
“In front of a flaming front”. Good lord, people, what more needs to be said??
The last time I heard someone screaming on the radio, it was also a serious injury/fatality situation, and yes, people had their heads up their asses there, as well. Many of us who heard THAT first radio transmission knew exactly what it meant, but those in positions that could have made a difference, didn’t grasp it until a critical amount of time had passed..
When people who are not used to being confronted with death or severe injury are confronted with just that, MANY TIMES they will respond in a way that is outside of normal protocols (MAYBE, BY NOT EVEN PROPERLY USING A MAYDAY SYSTEM IF ONE IS IMPLEMENTED!)..
Get your heads out of your asses people, and if you here someone shouting, instead of feeling all-powerful and chewing on their ass, LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY!
It doesn’t seem that the non mayday call made by Steed was the first indication GM were in trouble
I may be missing something, but I believe that that call-out was the first one broadcast over the radio.
AND,
to me, it was one of the clearest, most succinct messages broadcast that entire day.l
TTWARE… there is still one piece of testimony in the Blue Ridge notes, that says they heard some kind of MAYDAY call ( but no actual ‘MAYDAY’ used, of course ) over the TAC channel(s) BEFORE that callout from Steed on the Air-To-Ground channel.
It is still possible that happened and THAT is why off-the-radar Prescott hire Aaron Hulburd turned his Helmet-Cam on when he did.
If it happened… it would have been circa 1638 and just before that partial conversation we hear between Burfiend and (supposedly, according to SAIT ) OPS1 Todd Abel at the start of the Helmet Cam.
NONE of the 3 men standing there on Shrine road at the time of the deployment ( Aaron Hulburd, Jason Clawson or KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) have ever been interviewed by anyone ( as far as we know ).
Whether it was their first or second call-out in distress, I think the problem stems from the fact they’d not made anyone aware of where, exactly, they were. Given the combination of adrenalin, fatigue, and having to shout over noise, I can’t fault the transmission itself, so much as the fact that, since GM was still in practical terms off the map, more info needed to be relayed due to that prior omission.
When listening to the exchange between B33 and DivA, I get the feeling B33 knew their general location?.Maybe not precisely, but he seemed to feel comfortable that he could get the helicopters close to GM
And.
B33 never directly responds to the call for air attack. Todd Abel calls to him and calls him B33 as does Marsh.
It makes me wonder if GM were aware Collins had left the fire?
Reply to calvin post on
September 15, 2014 at 6:15 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> B33 never directly responds to the call for air
>> attack. Todd Abel calls to him and calls
>> him B33 as does Marsh.
>>
>> It makes me wonder if GM were aware
>> Collins had left the fire?
That has always been a very good question.
I am sure someone will jump in and correct me if I am wrong… but my impression of this whole ‘Air Support’ thing on up up-level incident that ends up with ASM modules and Air Attacks and Lead Planes and what have you that the ground people are NEVER quite sure who is ‘up there’ at ANY given moment.
One minute you could be calling ‘Air Attack’ and speaking to one person whose voice you are used to hearing… and then one moment later you could make the same call and be talking to a completely different person responding to the same ‘call sign’ of ‘ASMx’ or “Air Attack”.
It does NOT appear to be either procedure or even habit for the Air Guys to be ‘announcing’ their own ‘changeouts’ up in the sky down to ground people.
So yes… one does have to wonder WHEN DIVSA Eric Marsh became aware that “Air Attack” Rory Collins had handed that “Air Attack” responsibility off to some guy named John Burfiend sitting in the right hand seat of the “Lead Plane” Bravo 33.
If Marsh didn’t know that before the MAYDAY calls… then there certainly was enough information in the first few exchanges at 1639 for him to just ‘figure it out’ at that time.
Steed calls up to ‘Air Attack’ on his first MAYDAY… but then ( as you pointed out ) Todd Abel then uses the ‘Bravo 33’ designator instead when he first realizes Burfiend isn’t responding.
Burfiend then answers Abel and further identifies himself as ‘Bravo 33’ to tell Abel that YES… he is copying that traffic ( but even then doesn’t lift a finger to respond to it ).
So by the time Marsh gets onto the radio… he had already just heard both Steed and Marsh calling out to “Air Attack” but he had also heard both Abel and Burfiend using the ‘Bravo 33’ name as well.
From the actual Helmet-Cam video…
‘Bravo 33’ is heard clearly in the radio traffic itself BEFORE Eric Marsh comes onto the radio…
———————————————
+0:00
(Bravo 33 – Burfiend): Have it on scene here we’re gonna, gonna try and do what we can with that valley in the smoke where it’s kinda tough on us but we’ll, we’ll give it a shot, break uh, Structure 1, Bravo 33 on air to ground.
+0:13 – 13 seconds later…
(Jesse Steed): Breaking in on Arizona 16, Granite Mountain Hotshots, we are in front of the flaming front.
+0:27 – 14 seconds later…
(OPS1 – Todd Abel): Bravo 33, Operations, you copying that on air to ground?
Multiple other (frantic) calls to Burfiend take place.
John Burfiend is totally unresponsive to EITHER OPS1 Todd Abel or the repeated attempts from Robert Caldwell to contact him for the next 37 seconds until he finally acknowledges only OPS1 Abel’s call to him…
+01:04
(Bravo 33 – Burfiend): Operations, Bravo 33, I was copying that traffic on air to ground.
Burfiend ACKS Todd Abel’s question and says that YES… he IS, in fact, hearing that radio traffic… but Burfiend still makes no attempt to respond to Granite Mountain.
———————————————-
SIDENOTE….
Every time I look at that first part of the Helmet Cam video again with Burfiend saying…
+0:00
(Bravo 33 – Burfiend): Have it on scene here we’re gonna, gonna try and do what we can with that valley in the smoke where it’s kinda tough on us but we’ll, we’ll give it a shot, break uh, Structure 1, Bravo 33 on air to ground.
…I just get more and more frustrated that NO set of ‘investigators’ ever bothered to follow up on this and find out EXACTLY what that recorded conversation at that critical moment was really ABOUT.
Just taken on its own merits ( as in… just the WORDS that were actually recorded coming out of Burfiend’s mouth )… it really MIGHT be ‘proof’ that some kind of ’emergency’ traffic really had already been heard on a TAC channel just as that Blue Ridge testimony seems to say it was.
So what we are hearing there is Burfiend telling SOMEONE that VLAT 911 ( with pilot Kevin ) is now ‘on scene’ and that Burfiend will do his best to take care of something that he’s being asked to take care of.
Could it really be that Blue Ridge is right… that there WAS a pre-Helmet-Cam MAYDAY call on the TAC channels… perhaps even with some ‘general’ location info like ‘we’re on the south side of the fire’… and we really are hearing Burfiend explaining how they will try to address this emergency but it is going to be ‘tough on them’?
Just based on the WORDS that were recorded in the Helmet-Cam… that scenario is still perfectly possible.
Correction for above.
I used ‘Marsh’ instead of ‘Caldwell’ in a statement up above.
Should have read like this…
So by the time Marsh gets onto the radio… he had already just heard both Steed and Caldwell calling out to “Air Attack” but he had also heard both Abel and Burfiend using the ‘Bravo 33′ name as well.
Also… ( and I’m beginning to sound like a broken record on this one but it really is worth repeating )… if there WAS some kind of ‘pre-Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY call ( with some location info? ) over a TAC channel…
…then THAT would explain perfectly WHY Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd actually activated his Helmet-Cam when he did.
It means that Hulburd might have heard this same ‘TAC channel MAYDAY’ that Blue Ridge seems to have testified about… and he realized something was going down that needed to be recorded… and THAT is why he turned his Helmet-Cam on for ( supposedly ) that one-and-only time that day.
Aaron Hulburd would be able to answer that question.
If that really is why he turned his Helmet-Cam on that day then he could reach the ripe old age of 70 and he will still remember that is WHY he did it.
All someone has to do is ASK him why he decided to turn his Helmet-Cam on exactly when he did.
Air Attack or ASM would not have been monitoring Tac Channels. If they became aware of a ‘mayday-like’ call being broadcast on Tac, someone would have had to of called them on A2G to let them know of it.
Reply to TTWARE post on
September 16, 2014 at 8:14 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> Air Attack or ASM would not have
>> been monitoring Tac Channels. If
>> they became aware of a ‘mayday-like’
>> call being broadcast on Tac,
>> someone would have had to of
>> called them on A2G to let them
>> know of it.
Exactly. See my other post on this thread about WHO that (supposed) TAC 1 MAYDAY might have been directed at.
According to the SAIR… the conversation we are hearing at the start of the Helmet Cam was, in fact, OPS1 Todd Abel talking to “Air Attack” John Burfiend in Bravo 33.
If that is true… then what you have just suggested is EXACTLY what might have been happening there.
Todd Abel himself may have heard this same TAC 1 Mayday and there might have been just enough information in it to know GM really was in trouble… and a general idea of their location.
Abel may have then called ‘Air Attack’ right away to inform them of what was just heard on TAC 1 and was immediately asking them if they were going to be able to do anything about it.
That would be a valid explanation for Burfiend’s exact WORDS we hear for ourselves at the start of the Helmet Cam video.
Burfiend was answering Abel’s question and telling him that VLAT 911 was now ‘on scene’ and they would see what they could do… but that it was going to be (quote) “tough on us because of that valley and all the smoke”.
I also think it is possible that Abel told Burfiend the TAC 1 MAYDAY ( if it really happened ) was actually DIRECTED at SPGS1 Gary Cordes… and that could be why Burfiend ‘breaks’ his como with Abel so quickly and then IMMEDIATELY is trying to speak with SPGS1 Gary Cordes to find out what else he might know or why that MAYDAY was directed at HIM.
Yes… a lot of speculation there… but if there really was that pre-Helmet-Cam MAYDAY call on a TAC channel… then the ‘pieces of the puzzle’ actually fit such a scenario.
Reply to WTKTT’s 9/16/14, 3:36 pm reply to me concerning whether or not Air Attack/ASM was advised of a mayday prior to GM’s first A2G broadcast:
The major fly-in-the-ointment I see with the theory that Abel heard the Tac ‘mayday’ and called Burfiend to relay same, is that when GM finally DID get through on A2G and were OBVIOUSLY in distress, Burfiend ignored them completely for almost 2 minutes during several GM callouts, not the kind of thing one would expect if he had already received some sort of heads-up regarding a problem.
Regarding Burfiend obviously ‘ignoring’ the A2G traffic at 1639…
…more speculation required, I suppose.
If we are talking about a scenario where Burfiend only knew what OPS1 Todd Abel was telling him… perhaps something got ‘lost in the translation’ on Abel’s call up to Burfiend.
Maybe Abel was only talking in generalities and never mentioned ‘Granite Mountain’… or perhaps Abel thought it was DIVSA in trouble ( and not GM ).
The SAIR says that Burfiend thought those calls coming up to him were just from some structure protection group and that’s why he was ignoring them.
The SAIR says…
———————————————
The fire’s rapid advance toward Yarnell is generating a lot of radio traffic about structure protection so ASM2 assumes the broken and unclear transmission is one of the structure protection units calling to request a retardant drop. He does not suspect it’s Granite Mountain since they were safe when he talked to them earlier.
———————————————
There is nothing like that in Burfiend’s own SAIR interview notes so all of that might have been just more ‘creative writing’ on the SAIT’s part.
He WAS ignoring those calls, however.
There is no doubt about that.
So how Abel and Burfiend might have been discussing Bravo 33’s ability to help a crew in trouble… but Burfiend having no idea that crew was ‘Granite Mountain’… I don’t really know.
Perhaps this speaks more to a LACK of any real information in that first MAYDAY call that *might* have come over TAC 1.
If that TAC 1 call really happened… maybe no one really knew WHO it was… or maybe it was Marsh himself… who then took off running towards the men even earlier than we thought and isn’t heard participating in the MAYDAYS again until +2 minutes into the Helmet Cam.
All I know is that with the SAIT seemingly identifying exactly who was having that conversation at the start of the Helmet-Cam… ( Burfiend talking to Abel ) and with all the testimony about who was hearing what as far as MAYDAY calls go…
…it is astounding that this moment in time hasn’t already been fully documented by two different “investigations” and that we would even have to still be ‘guessing’ about it.
The report stating that B33 reported the initial call-out as “broken and unclear” sounds like a whole lot of CYA by somebody.
When listening to the recording of the actual broadcast, it is totally unbroken and extremely clear regarding what was actually happening.
B33 was probably just intentionally tuning-out someone who was yelling on the radio, as it was something he found unacceptable and intolerable due to wildfire radio protocols.
By stating he thought it was just some structure protection crew wanting air support, that somehow lessens the need to listen? What if it HAD been a structure crew, AND THEY were about to be burned over? I guess that would have been ignored as well.
Later, and perhaps before he knew of an actual recording of those transmissions, the “broken and unclear” became a way to explain-off the almost 2 minutes of ignoring what were clearly the verbalization’s of individuals who were in desperate straights.
In my estimation, ignored simply because someone found it intolerable that they weren’t following proper protocols.
Every single one of those transmissions, even though most were just calling -out for a response, provided clarity of a disaster in the making for anyone bothering to take a listen.
Another possibility is simple cognitive overload. With information coming a mile a minute, one problem with yelling is that it is paradoxically hard to hear. Try getting an upset person to listen by screaming at them, for instance, versus talking to them in a soft and, if you are a man, slightly higher than normal voice. It may not make sense in some ways, but people can engage the soft voice easier.
I’m inclined to give Burfiend a huge benefit of the doubt here. He was (along with Frisby) one of the people trying to ask the right questions of Marsh/ GM. He had the good sense earlier, when he was troubled by what he saw GM doing, to reach out to check on them. It wasn’t his role, then, to be either a safety officer, per so, or a highly skilled interrogator when straightforward responses weren’t given at that point.
Given that, I have every confidence that, had he been aware of trouble a couple minutes earlier, he likewise would have acted. Put 10 or more different voice in your ear on a rotating basis and try to stay on top of everything; you can even do it as a game with people and have them try to catch obscenities and such. Harder than you expect to catch. Very different from NOT being the person juggling all that and then hearing the same transmission.
BTW, on a separate note, Steed’s comment about working down to the structures is one more reason my gut says they did likely have plans to re-engage, even if that makes no sense.
“Broken and unclear” can also mean “distracted by my metal in the air” in a CYA sort of way. Air to Air can take up a lot of listening room in an Air Attack’s head. Is the ASM program such a good idea?
Sort of like when B33 came back to Able with “I was copyin’ a bit of that traffic/conversation”. No you weren’t. If you were copying the conversation you would have responded to “We are in front of the flaming front!”
The Helmet Cam audio of the PNF guys, “Oh is Granite Mountain still in there? Ya, they’re in their safety zone, the black” Sounds to me like those three guys weren’t sure where GM was at when they turned that camera on. Speculation of course.
SR,
I would be more than inclined to give Burfiend the benefit of the doubt, if not for the fact that there were MULTIPLE attempts to reach him without a response.
If the first transmission of someone shouting had been garbled for whatever reason, all the more reason to be paying closer attention to what came after.
To me, and probably many others, hearing any one of those transmissions was a strong indicator that shit was going down-hill in a real bad way.
Certainly, at the very least, warranting a prompt radio response, even if it turned out, when it was all said and done, that it was just someone using the radio in an improper manner.
It think it’s fairly safe to assume that during the time those transmissions were being broadcast, people all over the place were slamming BK portable radios up against the sides of their heads so they could hear more clearly what was going on.
On the first transmission, I’m willing to give Burfiend a pass, due to possible (excessive noise, garbled transmission, excessive radio traffic), whatever.
On all subsequent transmissions, he does not get a pass from me.
He should have been doing the same thing so many other people on the fire were doing during those moments, which was trying to hear everything they possibly could to determine exactly what was going on.
Reply to “The Truth Will Always Remain Elusive” ( TTWARE )
post on September 17, 2014 at 1:27 pm
NOTE: This is also being ‘brought’ up from down below in that same thread that has gotten so full that the ‘Reply’ buttons are no longer appearing where they should.
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> SR,
>> I would be more than inclined to give Burfiend the benefit of the doubt,
>> if not for the fact that there were MULTIPLE attempts to reach him
>> without a response.
…plus the fact that even at the point where MANY other people listening to those
frantic calls ALREADY knew something bad was going down… the only thing Burfiend
actually ever said back to ‘Granite Mountain 7’ was ( basically ) “Shut The Fuck Up” ( STFU ).
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> If the first transmission of someone shouting had been garbled for
>> whatever reason, all the more reason to be paying closer attention
>> to what came after.
It wasn’t garbled. It was just LOUD… and for a damn good reason.
The guy was in TROUBLE and already had at least two chainsaws running next to his head.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> To me, and probably many others, hearing any one of those transmissions
>> was a strong indicator that shit was going down-hill in a real bad way.
There is NO DOUBT that before Abel even had to ORDER Burfiend to (essentially) get his head out of his ass and ANSWER those men frantically trying to talk to him… ‘many others’ there in Yarnell and Peeples Valley had already realized that (as you said) SOME kind of shit was coming downhill so fast out there it was like ‘bowling for Hotshots’. in a VERY bad way.
1 minute and 58 seconds of listening to ‘elite Hotshots’ screaming into a radio trying to get some guy in an airplane to even acknowledge them isn’t some minor request in progress OR some one-off accidental transmit on a wrong channel.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> Certainly, at the very least, warranting a prompt radio response, even if it
>> turned out, when it was all said and done, that it was just someone using
>> the radio in an improper manner.
Agree. Burfiend basically told them to STFU before even lifting one finger to find out what it even *might* have been all about.
Just one more thing that should NEVER happen again. Not ever.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> It think it’s fairly safe to assume that during the time those
>> transmissions were being broadcast, people all over the place
>> were slamming BK portable radios up against the sides of their
>> heads so they could hear more clearly what was going on.
That is EXACTLY what was happening, at that instant ( and all over the fire ).
Marty Cole, former Captain of the Granite Mountain Hotshots ( then retired ) was one of TWO ‘Safety Officers’ that had been hired for Yarnell that day. The other was ‘big dog’ Tony Sciacca.
Sciacca was there before Cole… but Cole was the one who refused to even leave Prescott and start driving to Yarnell that day until he saw some kind of ’email confirmation’ show up on his computer at his house.
That is why ‘Safety Officer’ Marty Cole only got to Yarnell just minutes before the deployment.
Marty Cole couldn’t even find anyone at the ICP to give him a radio clone when he arrived… so he started heading east on Hays Ranch Road to see if he could find ANYONE who might be able to do that for him.
He reached the point where Hays Ranch Road meets Highway 89 and there was that ‘roadblock’ in place at that ‘T’ intersection being maintained by DPS Public Safety officers. There were ‘official’ looking people milling about there as well.
He stopped there and says he came across two ‘Forestry guys’ and he asked them if he could get a ‘clone off them’.
At that exact moment… the MAYDAY traffic was hitting the A2G channel.
Marty Cole says ( in his own official Unit Log ) that these men were then doing exactly what you just described. The moment that traffic even started to appear… they ‘slammed their BK radios’ against their ears because they could immediately tell something BAD was happening.
They told Marty Cole to ‘standby’ because they (quote) “Had to listen to this traffic”.
They kept their BK radios ‘slammed against their heads’ until it was not totally obvious what was really going down.
Marty Cole eventually did get his ‘radio clone’ from them and that is when he headed straight down Highway 89 to the Ranch House Restaurant and parked his all-white Toyota Tacoma extended cab pickup there, found Brendan McDonough, and immediately started ‘taking care of him’.
There is similar testimony in places ( such as DPS Medic Eric Tarr ) of other people absolutely dropping what they were doing the moment that first MAYDAY hit the radio and then PAYING ATTENTION.
In a way… it seems like the only one who wasn’t ‘getting it’ or wasn’t ‘figuring out something really bad was happening’ was the very man they were trying to talk to.
John Burfiend in Bravo 33.
>> TTWARE also wrote
>>
>> On the first transmission, I’m willing to give Burfiend a pass, due
>> to possible (excessive noise, garbled transmission, excessive
>> radio traffic), whatever.
That ‘whatever’ list would probably include the chance it was a one-off accidental pipe-out on the wrong channel. It happens. Even Steed himself wasn’t even transmitting on the channel he actually thought he was due to an ‘over-dial’ on his BK knob… or something.
Even so… that first transmit was intense… and SHOULD have been answered IMMEDIATELY.
This was a HOTSHOT calling.
He identified himself as such. ( Granite Mountain 7 ) and it was NOT garbled in any way.
What are the odds a trained (supposedly elite) HOTSHOT would be making some kind of frivolous call to “Air Attack”? Not high.
>> TTWARE also said.
>>
>> On all subsequent transmissions, he does not get a pass from me.
Agree.
Inexcusable… and it should never happen like that on a fire again. Not ever.
>> TTWARE also said…
>>
>> He should have been doing the same thing so many other people
>> on the fire were doing during those moments, which was trying to
>> hear everything they possibly could to determine exactly what
>> was going on.
Agree. See references to Marty Cole’s actual testimony up above.
OPS1 Todd Abel was VERY busy himself up north when that traffic hit the radio… yet within seconds he was calling direct to Burfiend trying to make sure HE was hearing the traffic since it was actually DIRECTED at him.
OPS1 Todd Abel knew right away something was wrong ( right away ).
He had to spend the next 1 minute and 58 seconds just getting the guy in the airplane to ‘wake up’ and realize what everyone else listening to that radio traffic ALREADY knew.
Reply to calvin post on September 15, 2014 at 5:57 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> When listening to the exchange between B33
>> and DivA, I get the feeling B33 knew their general
>> location?.Maybe not precisely, but he seemed to
>> feel comfortable that he could get the helicopters
>> close to GM
See reply to your other post above.
If there really was any kind of ‘pre-Helmet-Cam’ MAYDAY call of any length just as Blue Ridge seems to say there was… then YES… that transmission ( however brief ) MIGHT have also had some general ‘location’ information in it.
It might have even contained or been a repeat ( or the first iteration ) of “We’re on the south side of the fire.”
It’s almost a little odd that.. some 120 seconds later… we hear Burfiend say exactly this to Marsh ( as a question )…
“SO… you’re on the south side of the fire, then?”
If you look at that word ‘SO’ at the start of the statement… and the word ‘THEN’ at the end… it is almost as if what Burfiend is doing there is trying to CONFIRM what he ALREADY HEARD ( prior to the Helmet Cam captures ).
And then Marsh only says “Affirm” because he knows this is now the SECOND time Burfiend has been told that ( and not the FIRST time ).
Let me put this another way.
If that was the FIRST time Burfiend was trying to ascertain if they were on the SOUTH side of the fire… I could imagine him simply just asking…
“Are you on the SOUTH side of the fire?”
No ‘extra words’ needed there on the front or the end.
But if you ADD the word ‘SO…’ to the beginning and the word ‘THEN’ to the end like this…
“So… you’re on the SOUTH side of the fire, then?”
Doesn’t that seem to sound more like someone just trying to CONFIRM something they were ALREADY told instead of asking it for the FIRST time?
One more stab at this…
There is also a ‘contraction’ in there.
Expand the contraction and now you get this…
“SO… you ARE on the SOUTH side of the fire, then?”
That most DEFINITELY sounds like someone trying to CONFIRM something they were ALREADY told rather than asking the question for the first time.
And again… perhaps Marsh’s quick “Affirm” ( and I almost seem to hear him being ANNOYED that he even has to ‘Affirm’ this )… could be interpreted as…
“YES… we’re on the south side of the fire. I ALREADY TOLD YOU THAT, fer chrissakes.”
And speaking of those whom may have had a fairly good idea where GM was, we shouldn’t forget the transmission (from someone in the air, (I can’t remember who) stating that even though GM repeatedly was stating they were in a good safe position, it did not seem credible based on what was being seen from the air.
That person has never identified the specific location that GM was at when that conversation took place, or, exactly WHAT he was seeing that caused him to make that statement.
In my estimation, the first location that GM would have arrived at on their trek south that would have possibly seemed a bit dicey from the air, would be at the top of the bowl, at the time the fire had begun racing south.
At that location, they would have been down the eastern slope a ways, away from their previously easily accessible, westerly down and out escape off the two-track.
Seeing something like that from the air, certainly could have caused alarm bells to go off in their heads, and caused the subsequent conversation regarding whether or not they were in a good spot, and that their affirmation of that “didn’t seem credible”.
If the following exchange really is what is being said in the background at the start of that 1616 Panebaker video that also contains the “Granite Mountain… what’s your status right now?” callout… then it happened in the 1615-1616 timeframe.
According to the SAIR’s own ‘travel time’ estimates… then YES… they would have been ‘at the top of the box canyon’ by then or just about to arrive there.
Once again ( and with every ‘caveat’ in the world ), here is what I ( me, personally, your mileage may vary, yada, yada ) think is being said in the background at the START of that video…
** 20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
This video is 3 minutes and 31 seconds long.
Since the timestamps used in the filenames for these Panebaker videos
actually represents the END time for the clip(s)… that means the actual
START time for this 161620 video is 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
Direct link to this 161620 Air Study video in the online Dropbox…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AABZHI5bHPGycOVSAZbxff6Ea/Photos%20and%20Video/AerialFirefightingstudy/Panebaker/Video/Video#lh:null-20130630_161620_VLAT_split_1_EP.MOV
** IMPORTANT! – This is the video that SEEMS to capture ASM2/B33 (Burfiend) saying he can ‘see’ GM behind those hills there and they keep saying they are ‘comfortable’ but he doesn’t find that credible. ASM2/B33 ( Buffiend ) then SEEMS to tell whoever he is speaking to on the GROUND over the A2G channel to CALL Marsh and ASK him if he is WITH Granite Mountain. Someone on the ground then does, in fact, call and asks… “Granite Mountain… what’s your status right now?”
That’s when we get the ‘dodgy’ response(s) from BOTH Marsh and Steed.
This is ALSO the video where, at +5 seconds, we see Jason Clawson and his UTV dead-center in the video… heading EAST on Hays Ranch Road and down to Shrine road… and Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell are right behind him. As Jason Clawson passes the camera in his vehicle he is actively talking on either a cellphone or a handheld radio.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 STARTS
* AT 1612.49 ( 4:12.49 PM )
+0:08 ( 1612.57 / 4:12.57 PM )
(Unknown): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+0:12 ( 1613.01 / 4:13.01 PM )
(ASM2 – Burfiend): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 just TOLD them to do. He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS. It is now about 4:17 PM, just before the SAIR said they were about to leave the two-track road and drop into the box canyon at approximately 4:20 PM.
+0:41 ( 1613.30 / 4:13.30 PM )
(Unknown): Granite Mountain ( Five? )… What’s your status right now?
NOTE: A pretty heavy accent on this speaker. Sounds like Louisiana Cajun? What he says almost sounds like… “Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?
ALSO NOTE: Even though the caller asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically, and not ‘DIVS A’… Eric Marsh responds immediately on behalf of Granite Mountain before Jesse Steed even has a chance to say anything. Jesse only appears to ‘chime in’ with his own ‘status’ report about “we’re pushin’ our way down into the structures” when Marsh is done speaking.
+0:52 ( 1613.41 / 4:13.31 PM )
(Eric Marsh): Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. ( slight pause ) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
+1:07 ( 1613.56 / 4:13.56 PM )
( Another voice immediately adds to )
( what Marsh said but it is NOT Marsh )
( this time. It sounds like Jesse Steed )
(Jesse Steed?): We’ll be pushin’ our way down into the structures.
+1:10 ( 1613.59 / 4:13.59 PM )
( Another voice. Very quickly): Copy that.
+1:21 ( 1614.10 / 4:14.10 PM )
(Unknown): Ten four. You with Granite Mountain right now?
NOTE: Whoever is talking with Marsh at this point uses the phrase ‘Ten four’ to acknowledge a transmission instead of the usual ‘Copy’ or ‘Copy that’. This, itself, should help to identify the caller.
+1:24 ( 1614.13 / 4:14.13 PM )
(Eric Marsh): Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
NOTE: Marsh seems to completely ‘dodge’ the question he was asked. Either he didn’t hear it correctly or he was purposely deciding NOT to say whether he was actually ‘with’ Granite Mountain at that point in time.
As for the rest of this video…
There appear to be some other background conversations in this video before we hear the 11 ( ELEVEN ) shutter clicks of Eric Panebaker and the others with him in the foreground actually shooting still photos of the VLAT drop… but there is also HEAVY road traffic at this point that will take a lot more work to filter out.
* PANEBAKER VIDEO 161620 ENDS
* AT 1616.20 ( 4:16.20 PM )
The Prescott 3 didn’t even receive credit (from the SAIT)for the helmet cam video.
WTKTT discovered who they were.
WTKTT,
I find it astonishing that the SAIT didn’t AT LEAST follow-up on those notes, by questioning WHAT was the actual Tac transmission, and WHO was it directed to?
But since the USFS put the kabosh on their employees being interviewed, that info along with some other truths, has been kept hidden.
Regarding my original comments above pertaining to Steed’s first transmission on A2G, I agree with the comments from SR that more info should have been previously forthcoming regarding proper communication of GM’s location.
That however, does not negate what DIDN’T happen when they finally DID get on the air where plenty of people COULD hear them and have the opportunity to respond.
For example:
“BREAKING IN ON ARIZONA 16”
Even though they were apparently on A2G instead of AirGuard (16), the verbalization of someone breaking in on the emergency channel (AirGuard) in obvious distress should have caused an ‘ALL STOP’ or ‘TIME-OUT’ for EVERY SINGLE PERSON ON THE FIRE HEARING THAT TRANSMISSION (and especially OPS and those in aircraft above)!
“WE ARE IN FRONT OF THE FLAMING FRONT”.
I defy anyone who has fought wildfires for a while, to say they do not know exactly what THAT means without having some additional info supplied.
AGAIN: I don’t care who you are, when you hear THAT, it’s ALL STOP, TIME OUT, EVERYWHERE!
That’s exactly what DID NOT happen in this instance, and another one that I remember well.
The over-all point of my post above, was that people quite often don’t act according to protocol when confronted with serious injury, death, or dying, no matter what that protocol is.
Yelling on radios on large fires has been pretty much eliminated by training and peer pressure.
So if you hear someone yelling in distress on the radio, until proven otherwise, suspect that that person, or someone else they are with, is being confronted with imminent death. Even though they may not be using proper protocol, a careful listen may save a life.
I said it more properly in my comment further up, but in the text right above this, I should have said, “People that are not used to confronting serious injury, death, or dying, quite often don’t act according to protocol.
This does not include people who do this type of thing for a living , and are very good a following protocols.
I hear ya.
Even if there had already been an established MAYDAY protocol for Wildland Firefighting… it probably WOULD have still taken X number of seconds for people to react to the first EMERGENCY call and for their own brains to process what was happening.
Even if Steed had come onto the radio YELLING….
“MAYDAY!… MAYDAY!… MAYDAY!”
…it would have taken a few seconds for people to comprehend what was now taking place.
But a ‘few seconds’ beats the hell out of TWO MINUTES.
So yea… EVERYONE should now be ‘attune’ ( if they weren’t before Yarnell ) to any YELLING like that and instead of admonishing someone… the DEFAULT assumption should be that some shit is hitting the fan and this guy might need HELP….
…but it would STILL be better if the established way to ‘break’ into ANY channel under actual emergency conditions was some kind of UNMISTAKABLE lead-in such as…
“MAYDAY!, MAYDAY!, MAYDAY”.
This is not rocket science. OTHER professions where there can be a need for immediate distress signalling over either single or multiplex channel radios ( aviation, maritime, whatever ) recognized the NEED for this kind of thing a LOOOOOOOONG time ago.
The only ‘mystery’ here is why the hell the Wildland Firefighting business hasn’t ALREADY done the same.
I don’t care if it’s…
“JUNEDAY, JUNEDAY, JUNEDAY’…
There should ALREADY be some definite “STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND PAY ATTENTION’ signal so that what happened in Yarnell that day NEVER happens again.
Someday… 2 minutes might really be the difference between life and death for someone.
Reply to TTWARE post on September 15, 2014 at 8:08 pm
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I find it astonishing that the SAIT didn’t AT LEAST
>> follow-up on those notes, by questioning WHAT
>> was the actual Tac transmission, and WHO was
>> it directed to?
Maybe they did.
We still don’t have transcripts ( or audio recordings ) of the ACTUAL interviews they conducted.
They SAY they didn’t use any ‘recorders’… but at this point if the SAIT told me the sky was blue I’d still go outside to see it for myself.
As for WHO it might have been been directed at… don’t forget that we still have the ‘mystery’ of why John Burfiend was in such a hurry to call SPGS1 Gary Cordes right at the end of that conversation he was having ( supposedly with OPS1 Abel, according to the SAIR ) at the very start of the Helmet-Cam recording.
Maybe what went down could actually be ‘summarized’ something like this…
1. Jesse Steed sends an initial MAYDAY out on the TAC 1 channel. It may or may not have actually included some location information like ‘We are on the south side of the fire’
and/or the same “We are in front of the flaming front’ info soon to be heard on his first A2G transmit.
2. That initial MAYDAY on TAC 1 was being directed at SPGS1 Gary Cordes… the man who had TOLD Granite Mountain all about the Boulder Springs Ranch and that it was their ‘pre-designated safety-zone’ that day. If anyone would have understood where the ‘Boulder Springs Ranch’ really was… then they ( GM ) KNEW it would be SPGS1 Gary Cordes so that’s why they were trying to call HIM at that moment.
3. No one answered that first TAC 1 ‘MAYDAY’ call… so then Steed quickly tries to switch to Channel 16… screws that up and lands on Channel 10 ( Air-To-Ground ) instead.
4. While Steed was waiting for a response to his TAC 1 transmit ( which wasn’t going to happen ) and then while Steed was switching his radio over to try another channel… OPS1 Abel actually heard that TAC 1 call… tried to respond but was ‘out of range’… so Abel immediately calls Burfiend in “Bravo 33”. Abel quiclly explains what he just heard and that there might be a real EMERGENCY going on and asks Burfiend what the chances are of dropping ‘out there’ in that valley if that becomes necessary in the next few minutes.
Todd Abel also tells Burfiend that this initial MAYDAY was being directed at ‘Structure Group 1’ Supervisor Cordes.
5. By now… Prescott off-the-radar hire Aaron Hulburd has heard this same intial TAC 1 emergency call and realizes it is, in fact, his buddies from back in Prescott that are in trouble… so he reaches up and switches his Helmet-Cam on.
6. We now actually HEAR Burfiend responding to Abel’s radio call asking about the possibility of having to do an emergency drop ‘out there’ somewhere in the next few minutes. We hear Burfiend telling Abel that VLAT 911 ( with pilot Kevin onboard ) is now ‘on scene’… and that they would do the best they could but it would be (quote) “tough on us because of that valley and all the smoke”.
7. Burfiend then ENDS this conversation with Abel very quickly and seems to NEED to talk to SPGS1 Gary Cordes right away. He cuts away from Able with “Break. Structure 1, Bravo 33, on Air To Ground”. He doesn’t even take a breath after saying ‘Break’ which means he felt he needed to talk to Cordes RIGHT NOW. That could be because that initial MAYDAY was directed right at Gary Cordes and it is now important to find out what Cordes knows…. like ASAP.
8. Cordes never answers… because he had already lost the ability to transmit on the A2G channel… but it really doesn’t matter because before Cordes probably could have even responded to Burfiend… here comes Steed’s first MAYDAY call on the A2G channel instead of his first attempt on TAC 1.
9. The rest is recorded in the Helmet-Cam.
I still think the FEDS can deny access to Blue Ridge Hotshots for the next 20 years or so.
The KEY to knowing whether there was that intial MAYDAY call on the TAC 1 channel prior to the A2G MAYDAY calls is Aaron Hulburd himself.
If that intial MAYDAY on TAC 1 is the actual REASON he reached up and turned his Helmet-Cam on that day… then there is the proof right there that Blue Ridge is RIGHT.
LOL TTWARE..indeed, like you said “Get your heads out of your asses people, and if you here someone shouting, instead of feeling all-powerful and chewing on their ass, LISTEN TO WHAT THEY HAVE TO SAY.”
I remember once my radio, and ironically it was A-G, stopped receiving/transmitting for ‘no reason’, it turned out to be my tone and something that happened when I programmed a freq into my radio. I was working with a T1 Chinook helicopter working spots out in this open old clearcut, good visibility but you just can’t be out of commo with your helicopter. Point is, I let one slip on the radio because I didn’t believe my transmit was functioning, cursing and EVERYONE heard it. The pilot got a chuckle out of it at least.
I look at YHF and trying to understand how it seems that people did not hear GM’s call outs. Chaos is the word that comes to mind. Abel seems to have been the only one to semiseriously pick up on this, at least to verbalize it on the radio. There’s a time for explaining and reasoning and then there are times to just blurt it out! And as far as AA not hearing this, I blame him talking on A-A to an aircraft, or to dispatch on the local freq. I remember in somones interview (sorry I don’t have time to go dig for it) they blamed AA being 4 miles to the N or something and couldn’t copy GM on their first tries. I’m not sure about this, 4 miles in the air to the ground doesn’t seem unreasonable. The A-A talk though…this is possible. And when Burfiend says “Ya, I was copying a bit of that traffic/transmission…we’ll do what we can” blah blah, it’s a generic answer twice. B33 wasn’t really LISTENING. Overextended is another word for it too.
The call out like you said probably stopped some firefighters in their tracks and others not so much. Even the helmet cam PNF guys didn’t comprehend or LISTEN to that first transmission. That happened right when the camera was turned on, the call out happened and they pointed to fire moving through. Then, “Oh, is Granite Mountain still in there?” And then one of them says they’re in the black, the safety zone.
As far as clear transmissions go that day, go listen to the Yarnell_Gamble vid…”they’re coming from the heel of the fire” from Eric is extremely clear and booming. Yet whomever is on the other end ‘I’d appreciate it if you’d go a bit faster but you’re the supervisor”, doesn’t sound so booming and clear. Why? BRIHC’s rigs were in a line of sight from where Eric was? Line of sight seems to mean a lot in that country. Boulders, bad clone/tone issue, not enough repeaters…even the Command channel didn’t work worth a shit. They didn’t even really use it for anything because it (NOT even to announce the 1402 or 1526 weather updates!!) didn’t really work that well. Command is supposed to be a repeater channel that reaches the entire fire and all resources hear everything that overhead want them to hear Anyway, the clarity of that comm between Eric and whomever it is on the other end has always fascinated me. Eric sounds like he’s either close to (relative to line of sight), in line of sight of, fresh batts, or just plain random in his clear, booming transmission.
God bless those firefighters in California after deploying and running for their lives today.
Thanks to both of you, SR and WTKTT, for questioning that “it looked SO CLOSE” thing.
I just was assuming that, since so many people seemed to have said something like it, it must have been true.
But I also had a bit of a “Really? I don’t remember experiencing that kind of thing in all my years of horse-back riding, canoeing, and backpacking (including 10 years in the Grand Canyon), that I can remember. But maybe???”
I have to say I don’t think I ever visually misjudged the distance to anything in all those years. But then, I also never did any of those adventures without an appropriate topo map, or two or three, and a compass.
Maybe decades of exploring wildlands with topo maps (which I also spent two years actually drafting) and a compass taught me how to accurately judge distances. And also terrain.
I DO think younger people, raised to be dependent on stuff like gps units and electronic maps that talk to you and tell you where to go (which I have never trusted) are less situationally aware regarding their basic sense of orientation in 3-dimensional space.
Both I and my daughter’s father taught Terra how to correctly orient herself regarding cardinal directions and distances and terrain via experiences with maps and compasses out there in the boonies. So now even she, a millennial, has shared with me her frustration with her peers, who can’t find their way out of a paper bag via a simple map. She always ends up being the one who has to do that for them.
And, although I’m saying this, it absolutely doesn’t absolve the LEADERS of that crew from serious responsibility for ACCURATELY judging those distances. And I agree that THEY most likely didn’t misjudge the DISTANCE to the BSR, even though it seems quite a few people have been there and said, “It looks so CLOSE!”
But I’m not sure the youngers of that crew, all things considered (as I’ve written above), might not have been “fooled” by what they were seeing, and, thus, less likely to raise an OBJECTION.
And great catch on the YIN and the email, WTKTT. It made me think maybe I need to back and read some of the stuff I read a long time ago. I haven’t read what Reason wrote about “Just Culture.” Maybe, since it’s both a buzzword and a serious concern in fire-fighting these days, maybe I should.
And thanks, SR, for the feedback about the rappelling equipment. I found that whole thing quite remarkable and perplexing. Since I went to the first iteration of Prescott College, I, of course learned rappelling. But it’s been a long time…… But I looked at that connector, even after all that time, and spotted that fatal problem immediately.
Regarding TRAINING. I see so much stuff in the area of Training. But I also see so much stuff that indicates that something seems to not be getting through. Or maybe it’s getting through to the majority of fire-fighters that fight fires without getting themselves caught up in “incidents,” but not getting through to others who eventually wind up being fatalities and near-misses (of whom there were a BUNCH on the Yarnell Hill Fire even besides the Granite Mountain 19).
Regarding COMMUNICATIONS. I totally agree that communications seems to me to have been seriously inadequate all over this fire, and it wasn’t because of technology. I’ve been saying that all along. From what I’ve heard/read I’m not sure there was much of any accurate/adequate communications happening most of that day.
Except for Air-To-Air. A2A communications, as I listened to them, seemed to have been the best communications on the fire. They weren’t perfect. But they got their job “done” safely. The difference between A2A communications and the rest of the communications on this fire is IMHO significant and really needs to be looked at, IMHO.
Something really is DANGEROUSLY INADEQUATE in the realm of fireline communications if the Yarnell HIll Fire is representative of them.
OK, back to clearing out the family’s over-stuffed garage.
ADOSH State Compliance Supervisor Marshal Krotenberg of the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health is a career professional ‘Workplace Safety’ person who knows better than just about anyone that simply ‘discovering’ problems in a workplace means nothing unless the proper CHANGES are implemented to make sure ‘X’ doesn’t happen again.
As he said… the simple ‘sharing of information’ at the business management levels is WORTHLESS unless there is a PROCESS in place to make SURE the ‘Lessons Learned’ are actually being ‘Learned’ and implemented where it matters.
Just publishing some reports or putting some Power Point Presentations on some website doesn’t mean ( or accomplish ) jack shit, in and of themselves.
THIS is where he sees the ongoing PROBLEM in the WFF ‘business’.
The normal ‘continuous improvement loop’ that he sees in his line of work at most healthy businesses seems to be sorely lacking in the WFF ‘business’.
Most businesses would not just pin something on a bulletin board and then call it a day. That doesn’t assure that business there won’t be repeated accidents and the geometrically compounding fines and penalties for repeated offenses. The ‘continuous improvement loop’ has to reach beyond the corporate offices and right down to where the accidents are really happening.
If the cumulative ‘Lessons Learned’ are NOT being fully and diligently ‘Learned’ and implemented by the employees who really need those “Lessons’… the fault lies in management and the entire structure ( and culture ) of that ‘business’ itself.
As far as communication issues, I agree with WTKTT and Marti, but also had more the social skills and redirecting type of communication in mind as something to be discussed in the PPT. The reality is, a boss who’s in the past been completely noncommunicative in the workplace is probably always going to be more-difficult to deal with than someone who’s always open and secure enough to even demand substantive thoughts and input before making his own thoughts known. One would hope there would at some point be some frank discussion of these kinds of human factors and what the college-educated like to refer to as group heuristics.
One very good breakout for the PPT to have suggested would in fact be: you are working for a headstrong boss, who seems to feel that the crew descending into the box canyon is clearly the best choice. If you are concerned about weather, fuels, irreversible commitment to terrain trap, etc.,, how might you best voice these concerns?
Some people will always be more difficult than others. But, learning to both accept others giving voice to concerns, and learning how to voice concerns, are both in part mechanical skills. I sound like I am being critical primarily of GM here, but remember, Dudley himself also voiced contempt for “rabbits,” and it’s in fact true that people thinking for themselves and trying to be openly mindful of safety may not be that valued yet by some elements of the culture.
Two other notes about that PPT: it still accepts the BSR as a SZ, rather than doing its homework there, and it completely ignores the most viable way to bushwhack to the BSR, which would have been the rocks, not directly through the green. The rocks still would have been a fail as an option, and their risk is more clear in a couple ways, but with the right routefinding they would have been faster and afforded a lookout. And, a few trees there never burned. The PPT just seems curiously accepting of the viability of a long bushwhack through unburned fuel in those conditions.
“National Wildfire Coordination Group Investigation”
There IS another investigation in the works. As I was studying the history of wildfire fatality investigations, I had it in mind but I couldn’t remember where I had read about it. I still don’t know where I first read about it.
But as I was looking at the budding relationship between NIOSH and NWCG regarding the Wildland Urban Interface, I stumbled into the above investigation.
Four of the SAIR recommendations refer to NWCG:
“4. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the National Wildfire Coordination Group (NWCG) to review current technology that could increase resource tracking, communications, real time weather, etc. For example, this may include GPS units and weather applications.
5. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG and/or Wildland Fire Leadership Council (WFLC) to charter a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event and the wildland fire communications environment.
6. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the NWCG to develop guidance to identify at what point is it necessary to separate the ASM and Air Attack roles to carry out required responsibilities for each platform.
7. The Team recommends that the State of Arizona request the WFLC/NWCG to develop a brief technical tip for fire supervisors/agency administrators on the effective use of VLATs. These are new, emerging fire suppression tools that the ground-based fire supervisors may be utilizing regularly in the future.”
The NWCG is an interagency organization that includes federal agencies and state foresters. The Wildland Fire Leadership Council “is an intergovernmental committee of Federal, state, tribal, county, and municipal government officials convened by the Secretaries of the Interior, Agriculture, and Homeland Security dedicated to consistent implementation of wildland fire policies, goals, and management activities.” (from their website).
In November, 2013, Jim Karels, representing the National Association of State Foresters, wrote a letter to Aitor Bidaburu, Chair, NWCG Executive Board, attaching “a copy of the request from the State of Arizona to the NASF Forest Fire Protection Committee for assistance to address the national recommendations in the Yarnell Hill Serious Accident Report. NWCG was referenced multiple times as a source for assistance. I request that the NWCG Executive Board review the national action items listed below and provide a response back to me with recommendations for NWCG to complete the work to address these recommendations.” The letter then included the above four recommendations.
Jim Karels was, at that time, the Chair of the NASF Fire Committee, and, as such, was on the Executive Council of NWCG. He is not, currently, that Chair, as they are replaced, by vote, annually. Copies of that letter went to:
Chris Maisch (NASF), Jay Farrell (NASF), Dan Smith (NASF), Scott Hunt (Arizona), Tom Harbor (USFS), Jim Douglas (DOI), Jim Erickson (ITC).
This is pretty high-level stuff.
On May 14, 2014, NWCG responded with three documents, addressing Items 4, 6, and 7.
The above letter and the three responses (NWCG Assistance to NASF (….)) are on this page called “National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) Yarnell Information”
http://www.nwcg.gov/yarnell/index.htm which is linked on the NWCG front page.
There is no more documentation, that I’ve been able to find, regarding the chartering of “a team of interagency wildland fire and human factors experts to conduct further analysis of this event and the wildland fire communications environment.”
Two significant people are “human factors experts” related to the NWCG. One is Ted Putnam, long associated with NWCG, who has been publicly relentlessly critical of the SAIR (as well as most SAIRs, including the problem that they usually have to publish their findings without enough time to carefully do the job).
The other is Brad Mayhew, who served as the Human Factors Expert on the SAIT. Brad is a protege of, and collaborator with, Ted Putnam.
Brad has been VERY active training teams to do Human Factors investigations of incidents and “near-misses.” He designed the “Two and Seven Tool,” which provides a framework for post-incident Human Factors reviews, especially suited for crews to use to look at Line of Duty Deaths and their own operations, as a Lessons Learned training practice.
From his profile page on firefighternation-dot-com: “Brad Mayhew served as a wildland firefighter with the USFS Los Padres Hotshots. He helped author the Human Factors pages for the NWCG Incident Response Pocket Guide (2006) and received the NWCG Leadership Committee’s Paul Gleason Lead by Example Award for Innovation in 2007. Through Fireline Factors Consulting, he offers seminars on LCES and other human factors topics.”
What I think is going on, given the brutal history of wildfire-fatality investigations, is that NWCG is likely “waiting” until the legal investigations associated with the lawsuits are completed before they publicly proceed. And, I believe, when they do proceed, they will have the AUTHORITY to interview and collect whatever witnesses and data they decide they need. It’s unfortunate that their interviewing will come so late in the game. On the other hand, Ted Putnam was interviewing witnesses regarding Storm King years after that incident, and producing quite useful and detailed analyses of it as a result.
I think it also could be possible that this SAIR-recommended and NWCG-authorized investigation may be part of any negotiations regarding settlements of the lawsuits.
And, they will have the TIME to pick through the evidence/recollections that the SAIT didn’t have.
Related Must-Read:
“Fire Safety: Up In Smoke?”
Dr. Ted Putnam, Ph. D. Psychologist
http://www.investigativemedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/12/fire_safety_up_in_smoke.pdf
“In this article I outline six areas in which firefighter safety has improved little despite clear lessons like South Canyon.”
Testing. My comments keep disappearing and I don’t know why.
OK. I’ll try again. I don’t know what’s going on. The tests posted but the comment I have now written and lost twice, keeps disappearing.
I just found something I hadn’t seen before.
According to their Facebook page, on July 2, 2014, “Wildland Fire Leadership Development” posted:
“A new Yarnell Hill Case Study has been created by Brad Mayhew, former wildland firefighter and 2007 recipient of the Paul Gleason Lead by Example award. The case study is available on the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned website.
http://bit.ly/1sUOl6z ”
The above page for the Yarnell Hill “Lessons Learned” contains most of the usual documents, but it also has the Case Study, which I’d never seen. It’s a PowerPoint presentation. It’s well worth checking out.
The link to download it is just below the “Yarnell Hill Briefing Video.”
Testing again. Sorry.
Great Job Marti good Info
Thanks! It gives me hope…….
While Ted Putnam has a lot of solid guidance.
I and many others totally disagree with his assessment of the 10 standard orders.
I could have a long discussion with him including his statement on Fire order #3
The full order also includes the word Expected not just current.
Each one stands alone and is also part of the whole.
A whole past cadre of fire fighters followed each and every one and managed to fight fire safely and aggressively.
How dose he support LCES when those are part and parcel of the 10 Standard orders separate or together #4,#5,#7,.
What part of any of the TEN keeps you from fighting Fire?
They are meant to be simple and yet can be complex..
Training, Knowledge, experience and safety create the key to the use of the 10 & 18.
Thanks.
And yes I know the conflict. I almost didn’t post that article because of it. But I had to post it because of its relevance.
I’m not a fire-fighter, so I just don’t know. I can’t make a judgement.
What they’re saying about too many “rules and checklists” to be remembered and adhered to while things are exponentially changing and stress is rising and the brain can’t process such dynamic complexity in that manner quickly enough (and that’s why Gleason invented LCES) makes sense to me.
I just read an investigation co-investigated by Brad Mayhew that doesn’t mention the 10 and 18 anywhere. And it’s an awesome investigation.
It comes in four or five different parts, each with a different focus and intended use.
Google Coal Canyon.
But again, I reiterate, especially after what I’ve read below.
I firmly believe I have neither the experience, skills, knowledge, situational awareness, history, skin-in-the-game, to grant me the authority to make any judgement on this.
Marti–They are making it to complicated its not complex its simple safety. if you are in a continual mode all day nothing will surprise you as you move thru the day.
I am trying to help you along thru this as I know you are not a fire fighter. With just 40 hours of training first year fire fighters are awed at the power of a fire and they are in a learning process for some time.
THE TEN STANDARD ORDERS as you begin your shift
You get a morning briefing with Weather forecast . you get spot forecasts during the day if you need to you check the weather your self.
Your on the fire line Keep track of what the fire is doing in your area or post a look out with communications.
Plan escape routes and safety zones as you move keep the SZ and ER a close distance and marked.
Simple Alert, calm, think clearly and then in an emergency you are ready to act decisively.
Keep in communication with forces, supervisor and the adjacent Divisions or strike teams.
Give clear instructions a good supervisor always makes sure his instructions are understood including safety.
By doing all that you are maintaining control of you forces at all times.
With the above in place fight fire aggressively your safety is covered.
A good supervisor continues to evaluate the situation as the fire and the day progresses.
If a fire fighter is being stressed because of the job they need to change occupations.
Again LCES is part of the 10. if your not paying attention till you put In a corner then your going to create the problem your self.
It is a exciting and challenging occupation.
When you build safety practices and adhere to them every one goes home. No surprises you may have to get to a safety zone and sit out a flare up or escape but you already planed for that and you go back to work.
I lived like that on the fire line for close to 25 years and I would not traded it for any other job I could have had.
The best 3 years of my carrier was on the Hot Shots.
The best 7 years were on the Angeles National Forest we fought fire from March till late November and even in the slow 3 months we had fires 2 or 3 a month.
It all has to do with attitude, situation awareness is no more than the 10 and 18 and the brain telling you stop something isn’t right.. You get that feeling with experience.
I hope that helped, you have a great attitude to this business.
Thank you. I’m a bit brain-dead at this point. So I will probably read your post tomorrow with a chunk more awakeness.
And I REALLY respect what you are saying. Because I really respect how you are coming from a place of successful EXPERIENCE.
What I’m seeing is three general places where it may be possible the 10 and 18 are getting “buried.”
The FIRST is because of how they have been, in the eyes of fire-fighters, used, inappropriately, by people who don’t understand fire-fighting as, essentially, LAWS (which they are not), that the breaking/bending of which can be justified as grounds for criminal/civil prosecution. They weren’t originally designed to function that way.
That seems to me to be the start, historically speaking, of the beginning of labeling them “Principles” rather than “Orders.”
The SECOND thing I see in this history is the use of them in fatality/accident investigations as a predetermined framework for looking at the causes of fatalities and accidents. This is where, I think, Ted Putnam’s objections began. He saw these predetermined frameworks as insufficient to understand the THINKING that caused people to wind up in fatal situations. That was specifically the case that caused him to refuse to sign the SAIR of the South Canyon Fire.
He became committed to the idea that, to truly understand what CAUSED people to do what they did, it was necessary to get beneath just the breaking/bending of the 10/18, to what was going on inside their MINDS that caused them to think/do what they though/did.
The THIRD thing that happened was Paul Gleason deciding, over a considerable period of time, that his crews needed, in order to survive, something easier to refer to, in their minds, as things were exponentially getting more complicated and dangerous, and their minds were getting more overwhelmed, something less complicated to focus on, and thus he developed LCES.
I do design work, including photography and text and graphics, in the direction of advertising. One of the PRINCIPLES of design is to limit messages to FIVE at the most, and, even better to THREE. And telephone numbers are SEVEN. Because that’s the MOST people are actually capable of remembering in any given instant.
This relates to what I have read, in that fire-fighters object to the piling on top of even the 10/18 even more rules/checklists that they are supposed to remember/adhere to. Somewhere I read that the current collection includes about something like 53 of them are currently in play.
Which brings me to where things seem to be, to me, now. There seems to me to be something of a complicated evolutionary, re-thinking going on.
Fire-fighting organizations are looking at how, especially, aviation and even nuclear agencies handle highly risky work in complex environments. Those agencies look really closely at how human minds function in those complex environments. And, from there, analyze breakdowns and both positive and negative incidents.
What CAUSES people to break/bend the otherwise established “Rules of Engagement? I.E the 10/18
I actually think that some form of the 10 and 18 will survive this re-thinking. Within the context of trying to examine how it comes to be that they seem to be often forgotten/overlooked/bent/incapacitated when things are exponentially getting more chaotic on the fireline.
Marti—Check if you haven’t The 10 and 18.com
In this format the reduced rules were developed.
FIRE FIRELINE INFORMATION JOB/Safety
Four distinct pieces that covered the 10 a little easer to understand. But again memorizing the whole till it is second nature is the key to any safety rules.
If your job is to Fight Fire then the rules are your guide.
If your job is to fly an airplane then safety checks and inflight safety is your guide to a safe trip.
Each Hazardous job has its safety guide line or rules to keep you from being injured.
Prior to 1957 there were no standard rules. All of the orders were just training information. The 10 were developed to protect fire fighters and to reference what had been taught for years. In a rule type format. They all have a specific function and still identify where people have a failure because they do not use them or learn them or ignore them.
It is the other half of any Safety rule. If you violate the rule it will bite you. That’s why it is there in the first place.
Bob, you should love this, and everybody should read it. It was really helpful for me to read it. Plus, I take everything Ab writes very seriously
“Abercrombie’s Thoughts on the South Canyon Fire”
(in which Abercrombie, founder of wildlandfire-dot-com, critiques John Macleans “Fire On the Mountain” by powerfully explaining the essential-ness of fire-fighters knowing, understanding, and above all PRACTICING the 10 and 18).
http://www.wildlandfire.com/books/fireonthemountain.htm
Thanks again Marti
Never read that before but in a little detail follows what I have been saying. There are a lot of old and current fire fighters out there that believe in the 10 and 18 as rules and watch outs.
Some times people like Ted Putnam analyze things to deep and miss the real problem.
Thank you, and I agree that in some of this “they may be making things too complicated.” I really do see that.
That was Gleason’s whole reason for coming up with LCES:
But, even though I am impacted by Abercrombie’s powerfully practical assessment of South Canyon (and i think it needs to be stressed because it really drives home what the 10 and 18 are all about),
I still believe the “Human Factors” analysis path, advocated at fairly serious personal expense by Ted Putnam, and his proteges and colleagues, needs to be incorporated as fully as possible in looking at these tragic incidents (and also “near misses”) in order to better understand WHY people who made these decisions made them.
Including GM on the Yarnell Hill Fire. And a whole bunch of other people on that fire.
Good stuff Marti.
That #5, NWCG/NIFC/USFS have been developing what they’re calling the Office of Learning (OOL). There isn’t much out there about it, but it’s human factors based, just like the recommendation. Google Ivan Pupulidy, he’s the Director based in Boise at NIFC. But I believe it’s a Washington Office level type job.
I’ve seen the powerpoint LLC you’re talking about. Considering it’s related to the briefing video and the powerpoint doesn’t acknowledge CURRENT audio/video, I think it’s as misleading/incomplete as Dudley’s presentation.
Thanks! Yes, rich target. Hadn’t encountered him before.
VERY relevant.
Seems he’s written/co-written what some ffs consider the very best incident investigation reports ever.
And, yes, obviously the Case Study is based on the SAIT.
I’d love to know what kind of feedback they got on it.
That Being Said
The thing I found MOST INTERESTING, for me, was following along, where the powerpoint landed on certain critical decision-making points and listed what the crew probably knew, and what the crew most likely didn’t know, and the various options they had at that time.
And then asks the crews participating to think about being in that place at that time, without benefit of hindsight, making those decisions, And then asking, if this decision had already been made, what would cause you to agree/disagree with it.
Given that I agree with the mostly obvious hindsight-based but practically universally-expressed opinion that leaving the black mostly doesn’t make any sense (unless, for some reason, it did) and is the beginning of GM tightening the noose around their options….
…..the place I found myself really just sitting there was at the descent into the bowl. The sense that, based on comments of folks who had visited there that “it looked so close.” And the probability that they thought the predicted wind-shift had already occurred, and thus they were paralleling the fire.
I would give my right leg (almost) to know what crews doing this Case Study reported themselves thinking/discussing/seeing/feeling as they worked through it. I don’t know if “Lessons Learned” has ever published the feedback they have gotten from groups working through their process.
The people (mostly with at least a chunk of psychology backgrounds) who have developed this badly needed Human Factors stuff keep speaking about how, as stress levels rise, the ability to process dynamically everything that is going on around them deteriorates, and, thus, they essentially “take snapshots” of, essentially, what they are already “looking for.” And, even if they take “a snapshot” that is accurate, when a fire is changing exponentially, that “snapshot” can obscure their awareness of what a fire is dynamically and, in this case exponentially, continuing to do, especially as their stress rises.
This was the big discovery when Pupulidy did the investigation of the Rapelling accident. Everybody that looked at the connectors saw what they were looking for and nobody saw what was really there. I mean I looked at the photograph that showed that connector and said, “Are You Kidding??” But commenters on the various reports of it talked about all kinds of experiences in which that has happened with them.
So, after working my way through the PowerPoint, I found myself thinking, is it possible that, after the group left the black, stress increased, maybe subtly and imperceptibly but truly, not to mention fatigue, so that by the time they arrived at the descent point, and saw that ranch that looked “so close,” that “snapshot” became the “slide” that made them overlook the exponentially changing fire behavior, just as four people overlooked a fatally inadequate connector on a piece of rappelling equipment?
So even though, yes, the Powerpoint is based on a problematic SAIR, I think it is valuable, and not a whole lot of what I know got in my way of experiencing it that way and really wishing I could learn how crews experienced/learned from it.
BTW the place I started into the Rappelling Fatality (although I was already aware of it previously) was here:
On Wildfire Today, posted March 4, 2010
“Report released on USFS rappelling fatality”
http://wildfiretoday.com/2010/03/04/report-released-on-usfs-rappelling-fatality/
Honestly, that part of the PPT — the idea that the BSR just “looked so close” — was, to me, a remarkable bit of excuse-making. Foreshortening is a phenomenon that may surprise a kid from Phoenix who is up in the mountains for a day hike. It should be a known phenomenon that has been experienced multiple times, and is processed naturally, by someone leading a crew. In the SAIR and the PPT, the whole “it just seems so close” observation could be a natural way to try to normalize a very troubling decision. But: if they credibly think that the people or person directing the decision to undertake that bushwhack truly was surprised by forshortening, they need to then dig into how someone could be in a leadership position of that nature and not have the routefinding skills to not make that kind of mistake.
I, personally, haven’t seen evidence that Marsh or Steed truly did think the ranch was “that close” distance-wise. So, I’m not suggesting they did make THAT mistake, barring further evidence, such as further facts on any actual discussions between Marsh and Steed over choice of route..
Same for the discussion to the effect of “well, they probably thought they could follow game trails down quickly..” (Slide 45.) Again, this would be in the case of that bowl another mistake that maybe some kids from a college outing club would make. Because this slide does not state, at the same time, that the box canyon or bowl represented an obvious, soon to become irreversible, commitment to a terrain trap, it also risks encouraging discussions that inadvertently normalize deviance.
It’s also, to me, an elephant in the room that the PPT doesn’t explore crew training and culture at all as contributing factors. It is to me not coincidental, for instance, that Marsh’s communication style had been of concern in the past, even resulting in a targeted intervention a few years earlier. The reality is that most small groups do defer in sometimes quite remarkable ways to their leaders, and if you want to create mindfulness with safety as a high value, you have to create organized ways to flatten those hierarchies so that dumb mistakes get challenged. Small groups that are led by someone who in the past had to be counseled that he should speak when spoken to in the workplace are even more likely to need to work to develop communication skills to deal with this.
Marti, regarding the rappelling accident, it’s relevant in some ways and not in others. More purely cognitive rather than social, among other things: no evidence that anyone was simply defer to organizational rank, and a case of a quick failure to process visual information that, once the failure occurred, was fairly binary and not possible to reverse. No evidence of a pattern of behavior (though it is possible that relative inexperience was one contributing factor). The climbing/skiing/ vertical rescue accidents that I think are more analogous would be either something like the Sheep Creek slide in CO (avalanche with multiple bad decisions, though it happened in that case quite close to the road and so fatigue was not the same possible factor), or instances where someone ignored repeated warnings such as sloppy belay practices where someone then ultimately gets dropped, or, worse, where people deferred to a group leader and didn’t voice objections at all, even though they felt uneasy about the decision.
WTKTT—Ran out of reply room.
The Retardant line across the bowl what a waste of money and time.
It dried out and by the time the fire hit it as you said it went right thru it and did not even slow it down.
AS I said earlier on my Retardant use, it will dry once dry it is almost useless. I do not understand what there plan was on that retardant line.
Mr. Powers… you answered my next question before I even asked it.
That retardant line is CLEARLY seen almost fully completed in some of Christopher MacKenzie’s photos. It was obviously well laid across that ENTIRE valley… but what the hell GOOD was it?
The fire was still headed NORTH when this whole project was done… and really wasn’t anywhere near where they laid that HUGE retardant line.
It was 98 degrees (plus) down in that valley. Extreme dry conditions.
Sun fully shining on it all afternoon.
How LONG would any retardant line even stay WET under those kinds of conditions?
Only an HOUR or so?… or even less than that?
It really seemed like a waste of time, effort and money. ( I seem to recall something that said every drop from a VLAT ends up costing about $12,000, or something… and it took MANY drops to construct that retardant line ).
On the other hand, the retardant lines through Yarnell and the Model Creek area DID hold and DID matter.
Which actually underscores your point, Bob.
They were laid in front of the fire as the fire was bearing down.
Well I don’t know if I am an expert but I did learn a few things in 33 years.
So the one question out there did GM and Marsh think that retardant line would slow or stop the fire?
What was the plan for that retardant line?
Mr Powers . That first retardant line that was obliterated (on the south side of the fire, that was breached as early as 1540) seems to have been placed following the first weather warning that predicted the 180 degree wind shift .
Right?
Mr Powers,
It appears that the first retardant line (that was evident in Mackenzie photos) was placed due to the first weather update that predicted a 180 degree wind shift. Prior to the 1526 weather update.
As Fire Fighters we have learned that the use of a retardant line as an indirect line has proven to be an ineffective use of a resource with out the back up of cats or hand crews it just dry’s to fast in some environments to retain its effectiveness.
A better use would have been to knock down the hot spots that broke lose and escaped containment causing the havoc that ensued.
Reply to calvin post on September 13, 2014 at 5:08 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> It appears that the first retardant line (that was evident
>> in Mackenzie photos) was placed due to the first
>> weather update that predicted a 180 degree wind
>> shift. Prior to the 1526 weather update.
That is not the case.
I’ve been doing some serious research on this and the ‘answers’ about that retardant line are really all in the ADOSH interview with ‘Bravo 3’ ( Lenmark and Warbis ).
It was THEIR idea… and they came up with it just shortly after they arrived on the fire at about 12:30 PM.
In their ADOSH interview… they explain that they hadn’t even finished their first turn around the fire to ‘size things up’ after arriving and they KNEW that that fire WAS going to soon be heading towards Yarenll.. .THAT afternoon… and that they were going to have to try and do SOMETHING about that inevitability.
I’m writing a longer post about this that will appear shortly because there are a lot of ‘details’ about this that have been long-standing questions… but the answers have really just been lying there in plain sight ( in this ADOSH interview ) for quite some time.
Example: It turns out that ‘Division Z’ Rance Marquez was talking to THEM ( B3 Lenmark and Warbis ) when he first showed up and THAT is the conversation which DIVSA Marsh ‘overheard’ and misunderstood… which then led to the ‘argument’ between Marsh and Marquez over Division boundaries.
Air Attack Rory Colliins had already left Yarnell before Marquez showed up in the Sesame area. Collins had to leave because he was almost out of fuel.
Followup… Rory Collins did, in fact, come BACK to Yarnell after he had left to refuel right before ‘Bravo 3’ ( Lenmark and Warbis ) showed up.
Collins left Yarnell TWICE that day.
Once at around NOON or 12:15 to go refuel.
Then again ( after he had returned ) at 3:58 PM because his pilot was ‘timing out’.
It was between the time he was GONE to refuel that ‘Bravo 3’ was acting as ‘Air Attack’ and directing all the retardant drops… including the start of the laying of that west-to-east retardant line AND during the time of that near-miss between the skycrane and the VLAT.
That was on B3’s watch… not Collins’.
**
** MYSTERY SOLVED
**
** BLM CREW CHOPPER N14HX LEFT YARNELL AT 3:50 PM
There is no great revelation here… but I just found a piece of evidence that DOES solve a long standing mystery regarding that Yellow/White BLM Crew Transport Chopper with registration number N14HX.
A lot of people ( myself included ) have always wondered WHY this helicopter wasn’t being considered to be one of Granite Mountain’s safest ( and easiest ) ‘options’ for getting back to Yarnell on Sunday… since early Sunday morning this same chopper had already ferried the entire DOC Lewis crew back to town from that exact same place where GM was then working later that same afternoon.
There have always been photos of N14HX just sitting on the ground and ‘staged’ all afternoon up near the Helibase… doing nothing at all… but the latest photo is at 3:20 PM and it has never been clear if N14HX remained available on through the 4:00 or 4:30 PM timeframe.
Here is that photo of N14HX just sitting ‘idle’ even as late as 1520 ( 3:20 PM )…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/y3jy5opssrcvzb3/skImsXUoXH/AerialFirefightingstudy/Swartz/Pictures/Nikon/North%20of%20Fire/Helicopters#lh:null-DSCN0065.JPG
Well… as it turns out… there really is a piece of evidence that tells us exactly WHEN this N14HX Crew Transport Chopper actually left Yarnell and was ‘no longer available’ to ferry Granite Mountain off the ridge.
The moment when it requested clearance from Air Attack Rory Collins to leave Yarnell was actually captured in a Panebaker video.
It left Yarnell at exactly 3:50 PM… the same moment the CALDWELL video was being captured and Todd Abel was telling Eric Marsh…
“Keep ME informed, Hunker and be safe, and we’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
DPS Medic Eric Tarr’s signed deposition had always said that when they moved the DPS Ranger 58 chopper to that alternate staging area… they parked right next to BLM Chopper N14HX already ‘staged’ at that location. Eric Tarr also has always said the pilot of that chopper had been told, at some point, to leave the area because of the thunderstorm activity… but Eric Tarr never said WHEN that actually happened.
Now we know.
It was exactly 3:50 PM when N14HX contacted Air Attack Rory Collins, requested clearance to lift off and leave Yarnell… and Rory Collins let them leave.
Too late for this Crew Transport Chopper to have been used to help Granite Mountain in ANY way.
If there was any chance of using N14HX to ferry Granite Mountain off that ridge… then the decision needed to have been made PRIOR to 3:50 PM. It wasn’t. Marsh and Steed had only just begun to ‘discuss their options’ at 3:50 PM.
From Panebaker Air-To-Air Channel capture video 20130630_1628_EP
This video STARTS at 1547.58 ( 3:47.58 PM )
————————————————————————————-
BLM CHOPPER N14HX DEPARTS YARNELL
————————————————————————————-
NOTE: At +1:46 into this video… all of a sudden the Yellow and White Bell 407
BLM Crew Transport Chopper with registration N14HX calls Air Attack
Rory Collins and tells him they’ve just been instructed
to fly down to the ‘Weaver Mountain Helibase’.
This is NOT the ‘helipad’ out there where Granite Mountain was.
There is an official ‘helibase’ used by Arizona BLM called the ‘Weaver
Mountain Helibase’ and the address is as follows…
From Arizona BLM Official PDF Document listing their Helibases…
ARIZONA BLM – WEAVER MOUNTAIN HELIBASE
33501 S. Hwy 89, Wickenburg, AZ, 85390
Description: Weaver Mt. Helibase is located 12 miles north of
Wickenburg on Hwy. 89 between mile posts 260 and 261,
on the East side of the Hwy.
Elevation: 2700 ft. MSL
Latitude: 34 degrees, 3 minutes, 67 seconds NORTH
Longitude: 112 degrees, 48 minutes, 86 seconds WEST
Decimal Lat/Long for the center of the Helibase’s actual Helipad is…
34.061330, -112.815056
—————————————————————————
+1:46 ( 1549.44 / 3:49.44 PM )
(Helicopter N14HX): Air Attack… Helicopter One Four ( Hotel Xray? )
+1:49 ( 1549.47 / 3:49.47 PM )
(AA – Collins): Air Attack, go ahead.
+1:51 ( 1549.49 / 3:49.49 PM )
(Helicopter N14HX): Yea… I’m with the Yellow Four Oh Seven ( 407 ).
I’m over on the ground by the Helicopter pit… and… uh.. we’ve been instructed
to go back down to Weaver Mountain Helibase to the SOUTH.
——————————————————————————–
NOTE: What the caller for Helicopter N14HX meant above when he said
he was “with the yellow four oh seven” is that he is with the yellow
1997 BELL 407 Helicopter that was the same one ‘on loan’ to Arizona BLM
and was used the day before to ferry the Lewis DOC crew IN to the
‘anchor point’ area on Saturday morning… and was then used to fly them
OUT again Sunday morning even while Granite Mountain was hiking
out to the same ‘anchor point’ location.
This is the Yellow/White Bell 407 Chopper seen in Joy Collura’s photos
taken Sunday morning out by the anchor point. This N14HX Bell 407
chopper was known to be ‘staged’ there on Sunday in a field by the helibase
next to DPS chopper Ranger 58 and there are photographs of it staged
there… but the latest photo of it still on the ground was at 3:20 PM that day.
This Yellow/White Bell 407 Chopper with registration N14HX was on
contract with Arizona BLM that weekend but actually is owned by…
1997 BELL 407 – Rotorcraft – (7 seats / 1 engine)
Owner: HELICOPTER EXPRESS INC., CHAMBLEE, GA (Corporation)
Serial Number: 53184
————————————————————————–
NOTE: Some cross-talk appears in the radio capture at this point
with Thomas French in Bravo 33 having another conversation with
Tanker 830. Collins is then trying to tell BLM Chopper N14HX that
if he ‘comes back’… to use another radio frequency. Tanker 810 gets
confused for a moment and thinks that instruction from Rory Collins
to Chopper N14HX was meant for HIM. After that confusion is
cleared up by Thomas French in Bravo 33, N14HX tells Air Attack
Rory Collins he is now LEAVING Yarnell and exiting to the EAST.
+2:00
(B33 – French): Eight three zero… you still up?
+2:02
(830): Yes sir.
+2:03
(AA – Collins): I copy… and… uh… if you come back in… uh… go to rotor victor
one two three decimal one two five, please.
+2:10
(830): One two three one two five for eight three zero?
+2:14
(Helicopter 14?): Rotor victor one two three one two five?
+2:18
(AA – Collins): Correct
+2:20
(830): And that was for tanker eight three zero?
+2:23
(B33 – French): Uh… Negative eigth three zero… uh… you stay at
( ?? ) one three four one seven.
+2:27
(830): ( A little disgusted over this misunderstanding ) Copy.
+2:30 ( 1550.28 / 3:50.28 PM )
( Helicopter N14HX): Helicopter One Four Hotel Xray will be goin’ out to the east
across the highway and then south outta your area.
+2:35 ( 1550.33 / 3:50.33 PM )
(AA – Collins): Allright… copy… thank you.
——————————————————————————
By the way… the VERY NEXT radio transmission on the Air-To-Air channel after the Yellow/White N14HX BLM Crew Transport Chopper told Air Attack Rory Collins they were ‘lifting off’ and leaving Yarnell to the EAST was the following with Collins telling ‘Bravo 33’ that the fire was now headed to Yarnell… and his ground contact down there was ‘Division Alpha’…
—————————————————————————-
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): (Copy) Ground contact Alpha.
—————————————————————————
Incase you haven’t checked back on Elizabeth’s Blog.
After attacking me and RTS. and I am sure using me as one of the retired Fire fighters
in her latest rant.
She is now attacking the 10 Standard Orders as basically being useless as rules.
For some one with absolutely no background or training in Wild Land Fire she thinks she knows a lot.
.No names of her supposed supporters who post there beliefs and written releases.
At least John D. list his name as IM.
Bob,
Once again, the new post on that particular blog has the big “E” stamped all over it.
For a reference point regarding the popularity of her blog, when the link to it first appeared in the New Times comments 4 days ago, there had been 160 views since it’s inception in February. They must have had to add some servers to keep up with all that traffic.
In the past four days, that number has slightly more than doubled.
There are NO public comments posted on the blog, even though she promises to keep all your info confidential
For comparison, the comments on this IM sight have over one million views.
It is impossible to forget the numerous promises of confidentiality that were violated by “E” when she was commenting over here on the IM site. Perhaps that is what is keeping the public comments on her site at zero.
YAP–just thought you guys would be interested. Many of the other Blogs on Yarnell seem to be short lived.
Hmmmmmm
I just tried the link for that blog from the original article.
It essentially landed on a blank page with this message:
yarnellhillfireblog
Trying To Be Accurate Regarding The Yarnell Hill Fire
Skip to content
HOME ABOUT
This is somewhat embarrassing, isn’t it?
It seems we can’t find what you’re looking for. Perhaps searching can help.
However the “Recent Posts” links work.
OK I read everything.
The blogger makes lots and lots of claims without sourcing them.
And in order to reed the posting comments by others you have to join thru her
I would recommend you not do that if you have been on here she will contact you with questions an start arguments to satisfy her own craving for arguments. I know I made the mistake of answering her thru my email.
Back to the top and back to retardant.
I noticed that many of you using the word retardant may not understand its ability,
RETARDENT–If dropped on a fire and dry’s it retards nothing it is a dried color pigment on the land scape it can not stop flames once dry.
The color pigment is added to show where the drop is at.
The chemicals added to retardant are simply to hold the water moisture longer to keep the fire in check it is similar to snot.
High temperatures will dry it out faster and then it is not affective to slow the fire.
It is not as you would think a RETARDENT as the term implies once dropped it will not burn and protect what it is dropped on is not its chemical makeup.
Thus the objective of having crews to build line with the drops. The drops cool the fire where crews can make direct attack and build line.
If you were thinking that Marsh or the crew thought that a retardant line between them and the fire would slow the fire and protect them that is a false assumption based on the erratic fire activity and Spot fires. The only thing would have been a direct drop on them at the deployment site. Air attack had no idea of there exact location and when they needed the drop they were covered in smoke making it impossible to make an accurate drop directly on the crew.
Thus a fire fighter saying– never rely on retardant to save your ass–it ant the movies here.
Maybe I can clarify where I am coming from maybe not—-
e can sit here and discuss several reasons real or not that Marsh and GM moved off the mountain and safe Black.
Based on what we have so far there is no indication that any thing was said or discussed about moving to redeploy.
The only thing we hear from the crew is they are on their escape route headed to a safety zone.
no real definable statement of headed to town, Yarnell or Glen Alia.
We have for a fact after the Fire a statement from Willis (they were moving to redeploy) his statement not GM’s. So this became the hear say that justified the move completely no justifiable evidence.
McDonough has stated that the crew was using the escape route to the safety Zone at the Ranch, no statement of redeploying.
Dozer was under control of Cordes with a dozer operator and a Strike team leader Dozer, Marsh had no connection to them or a discussion by his superiors that he did.
Air Attack this is the confusing part—while Marsh had responsibility for DIVA he had a light air tanker assigned to him to support the firing out of line the crew was putting in. What we found out was he had no control of that Air Tanker as the air attack kept telling it to drop on the burn outs that GM was doing—So in reality Marsh had no real control over air attack or air tankers all day and he quit using them before noon and dose not order any drops after the morning conflict.. So where dose Marsh all of a sudden have responsibility to call for air drops?
The last point B33 when notified of the crew entrapment had to notify OPS that he was holding the plane with retardant to assist the crew. and stop dropping in the town location. He then could never get back to marsh on their location and do to smoke could not find them. The only time in the afternoon that B33 was actually talking to Marsh.
The whole redeployment thing came from Willis and I think in his own mind he was trying to justify why they moved.
Again every one else was headed to safety and parked at the restaurant. Why would one crew be headed to redeploy when they were headed to their safety zone as stated by Marsh.
What ever else Marsh might have thought he would do from the SZ was lost with his death. No plan that we know of was discussed with his supervisor.
We are told there is evidence out there that will tell us why they moved off the mountain. but right now we have nothing else to establish the WHY.
So at this point that is where I have landed. It was a bad decision with no safety plan, a bad selection of a escape route and a really bad out come.
The simplest explanation is still that they were looking to re-engage, so barring something different I think that’s the likely motive. The fact that Willis suggested this I think reflects if nothing else the culture they were coming out of, and perhaps expectations they had of themselves. Also, while McDonough has been subject to all sorts of pressures and suggestions from the outside that mean that anything from him may not reflect reality before or during the fire, he also seemed to view moving to reengage as just a normal thing given the situation (risk a lot to save a lot — but again, what were they going to save given their training and their equipment — there’s a reason why people were at the restaurant).
That it was a really, really bad motive (how and what were they going to do?) with a really, really bad assessment of all sorts of risks, is certainly true.
But, to me it would be even more far-fetched to think that GM thought they would be safer moving.
SR– In the last of your statement you just said they could not move to reengage based on what were they going to do.
What is far fetched about moving off the mountain end of shift safe or not they did it.
The simplest exploitation– They were headed out and back to there vehicles.
The reengage sounds nice but no one else was going back to work why would they expect to 1800 shift over adios. No glories motives here.
They said no where at any time any thing about repositioning so they could reengage. Simple they were trying to find the fastest way back to their vehicles there assignment was over. I have seen it a few time just not moving in front of a Fire, when we get back to our rigs it will be quitting time we cant do any more here. I still believe they were convinced they had plenty of time to complete the move maybe even to the Highway? thus no reason for LCES.
Reply to Bob Powers post on September 11, 2014 at 2:31 pm
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> I still believe they were convinced they had plenty of
>> time to complete the move maybe even to the Highway?
>> thus no reason for LCES.
There really have ALWAYS been the following 3 ‘swiss cheese holes’ that had to ‘align’ for these (supposedly) experienced FFs to have made such a fateful series of BAD decsions.
TIME… DISTANCE… DANGER.
** TIME
Just before Rory Collins left the fire at 1558 ( 4:58 PM ) he had ‘announced’ that YES… the fire was headed towards Yarnell… but his professional estimate was that it was still TWO HOURS away from reaching town. How much ‘stock’ both Marsh and Steed were actually putting into that ‘estimate’ as far as their own decision making goes remains an unknown part of the ‘equation’.
** DISTANCE
The route had NOT been scouted prior to them deciding to use it.
That’s pretty much a given. Whatever motivations were involved for BOTH a DIVSA and a Type 1 IHC Sup to AGREE that the ‘move’ was even feasible was based on ‘guesses’ as to how long it was REALLY going to take them to cover that distance. They were ‘making it up as they went along’ and seriously mis-calculating both the total distance and their achievable travel rate(s).
** DANGER
Their own sense of DANGER had to factor in here. If the DANGER involved in making that move was already perceived to be HIGH before they left the safe-black then I believe they would not have moved at all OR would have been totally ‘double-time’ for the entire hike. There is no evidence they had any real sense of DANGER at all while making these important decisions that afternoon.
Example: The SAIR itself gave them 15-20 minutes from the moment they left the ‘safe black’ to reaching the ‘Descent Point’… and then another 19 minutes from the Descent point to the Deployment site.
That 15-20 minute estimate for the ‘first leg’ of the trip has NEVER indicated a crew moving in any kind of ‘double-time’. That time estimate for that distance just indicates a ‘normal’ brisk/steady hiking pace that also pretty much matches the pace they achieved in the morning when they hiked OUT to the ridge.
So if we accept those ‘travel times’ in the SAIR… there is NO indication they ‘sensed DANGER’ at all and were in any kind of ‘double time’.
We know now ( with total 20/20 hindsight ) that if they had any chance at all of completing that whole ‘trip’ and reaching their destination… then they SHOULD have at least been in ‘double-time’ for that first ‘easy’ leg of the journey up on that two-track. They were going to need every extra minute they could get… or they were going to DIE.
The only explanation for them NOT trying to make the best possible time their physical conditioning would allow is because they simply didn’t feel the need to be in a HURRY like that.
In other words… no real sense of any DANGER ‘out there’.
I still think that EACH of these 3 ‘holes in the cheese’ that aligned that day and contributed to this tragedy represent not only errors in judgement… but errors in TRAINING… and I don’t think enough has been said about how these 3 ‘factors’ alone might be serious ‘Lessons Learned’ that should have caused some serious review of ALL WFF training programs.
If these two ‘professionals’ were able to FAIL in all THREE areas ( Estimating TIME, estimating DISTANCE, and evaluating the DANGER )… then something is/was really ‘rotten in Denmark’. as far as actual TRAINING goes.
It means they were lacking the ‘skills’ they needed to stay alive out there. They ‘thought’ they had enough skill to make all these decisions but it turns out they did NOT. That means something.
Even Mike Dudley closed his speech to the Utah firefighters with saying that “all we have is our training’ and we need to ‘stick with that’.
Well… if he’s referring to the same ‘training’ that allowed these 2 ‘professionals’ to make such serious errors in judgement in all three of the TIME, DISTANCE and DANGER categories… then perhaps this ‘training’ itself that Dudley is needs a HARD REVIEW… system wide.
That review doesn’t even NEED to know the WHY of the situation.
Regardless of the WHY… their actual tactical execution of the plan they chose for themselves ended up so FLAWED that just simply the ability of field personnel to make these kind of TIME, DISTANCE and DANGER appraisals needs to be evaluated.
Is the Forest Service REALLY sure they ALL people who have been promoted to field supervision level and are then responsible for the lives of dozens of other men REALLY have the skills they need to be holding those positions and making those ‘field level’ decisions?
Maybe some kind of ‘re-test’ or ‘re-certification’ following Yarnell would be a good ‘safety step’ to take… system wide.
** MOTIVATION
Mr. Powers…
One of the reasons we are simply (now) ‘revisting’ the statement in the SAIR about it being Eric Marsh who called Air Attack and said “That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant” is because there HAS been some ‘new evidence’ emerge lately.
I already mentioned the IMG_1334 and IMG_1335 photographs that would tend to prove that Marsh COULD have seen whatever Bravo 33 was doing around that time from just about ANYWHERE within a 2 minute hard run away from the deployment site.
One of the OTHER ‘new’ pieces of evidence that would cause us to take a re-look at the the MOTIVATION aspect in the critical timeframe was something that was just verified ( for the FIRST time ) in Mr. John Dougherty’s most recent article.
It almost just sort of ‘flew by’ in that article since Mr. Dougherty was, in fact, trying to cover a ‘lot of ground’ in that article.
It was the report from Mr. Dougherty that he HAD obtained ALL of Darrell Willis’ cell phone records and there definitely does NOT appear to have been any ‘private’ phone conversations between Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis and DIVSA Eric Marsh that could have contributed to Marsh’s decision making out on that ridge.
We already knew that ADOSH had obtained all of Willis’ records… but then ADOSH mysteriously says NOTHING about them one way or the other in any of their released documents.
We also already knew that Mike Dudley specifically told the Utah firefighters that THEY ‘looked into that’ and didn’t find anything worth mentioning…
…but Mr. Dougherty’s article is the FIRST time we DEFINITELY hear from someone who has seen those cell phone records with their own eyes that there were, in fact, no recorded cell calls between Willis and Marsh in the timeframe when it could have influenced Marsh’s decison making.
The cell phone records would have shown BOTH ‘incoming’ and ‘outgoing’ calls to/from Wills’ phone.
So Mr. Dougherty has FINALLY ‘confirmed’ that Willis did NOT call Marsh and Marsh did NOT call Willis prior to the decison making.
The cell phone records DO, however, prove that Willis DID call Eric Marsh… but only after he was already dead.
Obviously that was just part of the frantic effort for people to make any kind of contact with Granite Mountain following the realization of the deployment… and it was a logical thing to try…
…but it’s also very mysterious why Darrell Willis himself NEVER mentioned this attempted phone call to Marsh in all of the opportunities he had to do so… and it still had to take an FOIA request and someone examining his cell phone records to discover that it actually happened.
The minute I read that final, definitive report from Mr. Dougherty in his article I realized that it was way past time to take that ‘decision making factor’ off the table and just get back to thinking more along the lines of “Why would Marsh HIMSELF, with no ‘secret phone calls or orders coming OUT to him that day’, still decide he absolutely NEEDED to get to town that day instead of just staying out there with GM?”
That’s when I just started thinking about this whole ‘Air Support’ aspect again and Marsh’s involvement with all that as DIVSA ( all day ).
Remember… we KNOW now that Musser’s ‘availability check’ came at 1542 that day… and at THAT time… Marsh was telling Musser that he basically had no plans on going ANYWHERE.
Less than 15 minutes later… it now looks very much like Marsh had already taken off south and was headed for Yarnell… on his OWN.
So what could have possibly changed Marsh’s mind about what he needed to be doing next in just those 15 minutes?
Enter the CALDWELL video at 1550… just 8 minutes after Marsh was telling Musser both he and GM were still ‘committed to the ridge’.
At 1550… Todd Abel tells Marsh…
“We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
So now Marsh is SURE that Air Support is coming.
Prior to the radio call… he probably wasn’t sure about that at all.
His next thought ( as DIVSA ) might have been… “Well… if they really are shifting all the Air Support to this SOUTH end… then I need to be sure I’m in a good spot to help direct the retardant drops”.
One look out into the bowl at THAT point and he must have realized that smoke we see in the 1500-1550 MacKenzie photos was only going to get thicker and heavier and it was GOING to obscure Marsh’s view of town from out on that ridge.
So Marsh might have then just quickly realized that in order to be directing these upcoming (crucial) retardant drops to try and save Yarnell… he better get his ass into a better position where his vision wouldn’t be so blocked.
That means he HAD to head SOUTH… which is what he then apparently immediately decided to do. No discussion with anyone. HE decided that was what HE needed to do to continue to be an effective DIVSA and be able to provide input for the upcoming ‘Air Support’.
I don’t think Marsh ever thought, for even one second, that OPS1 Todd Abel’s ORDER “You guys hunker and be safe” actually applied to HIM in any way, shape or fashion.
How it applied to ‘the guys’ ( Steed and Crew ) and why that ORDER from OPS1 Todd Able was eventually disobeyed is a completely different part of ‘this story’…
…but the ‘story’ of how/why and when DIVSA Marsh decided that HE needed to relocate HIMSELF might simply not be complicated at all.
It was all about the ‘Air Support’… which even Marsh must have known was the only thing that was going to make any difference at all at that point with regards to how MUCH of the town was going to burn… or not.
Typo way up above in the first part of my comment.
I mistakeny typed 4:58 PM for the time when Rory Collins left the fire.
It was actually 3:58 PM.
We still have no exact time for WHEN Rory Collins was ‘announcing’ that the fire was still TWO HOURS from town ( since there have NEVER really been good interviews with the elusive Mr. Rory Collins )… but it had to have been right around 1500 – 1555 ( 3:50 to 3:55 PM ) right before he left the fire and right when Marsh and Steed really were ‘deciding what their options were’.
I believe Collins actually said; “one to two hours” before the fire would get to town.
And the wind did not hit the fire till after he left which changed everything.
WTKTT That was a well stated Fail in three areas
VERY TRUE
Reply to TTWARE post on
September 12, 2014 at 7:43 am
>> TTWARE said…
>>
>> I believe Collins actually said; “one to
>> two hours” before the fire would get
>> to town.
According to the SAIR… yes… that’s what he really said. More than ONE hour but could be TWO.
From the SAIR…
————————————–
At about 1550, Air Attack tells DIVS A the fire is heading quickly toward Yarnell and could reach the town in one to two hours. He also says the Granite Mountain IHC’s crew carriers may be in the path of the fire. DIVS A acknowledges and tells Air Attack he has a plan to address this issue. Shortly after this, Air Attack leaves the fire because of duty time limitations.
———————————-
That has actually always been a pretty confusing paragraph in the SAIT… especially because of the TIME reported.
‘At about 1550’… Rory Collins was actually talking to Thomas French, John Burfiend ( and Clint Caluson ) in ‘Bravo 33’ about how there was now a ‘heck of a wind shift’ in progress and how the fire was now headed towards Yarnell.
That is also the same 1550 radio call from Collins where he tells Bravo 33 that his ( and soon to be THEIR ) CONTACT on the SOUTH side of the fire was ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ).
See below for an exact transcript from a Panebaker Air-To-Air channel capture of exactly what Collins was saying/doing at 1550.
The report in the SAIT must be talking about a conversation Collins had with Marsh on the Air-To-Ground channel… but it had to be shortly BEFORE or AFTER 1550 since Collins couldn’t have been speaking on both A2A and A2G at the same time.
>> Reply to Bob Powers post on
>> September 12, 2014 at 10:08 am
>>
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> And the wind did not hit the fire till
>> after he (Collins) left which changed
>> everything.
Actually… that’s not true.
Shortly before he left the fire… ‘Air Attack’ Rory Collins himself is the one that was informing Thomas French and John Burfiend ( and Clint Clauson ) in ‘Bravo 33’ that there was a ‘heck of wind shift’ already in progress and that the fire was now heading towards Yarnell.
Rory Collins called B33 at 3:50 PM to specifically tell this to ‘Bravo 33’… and this is the same moment he also informed them that his CONTACT there all day on the SOUTH side of the fire was ‘Division Alpha’ ( Eric Marsh ).
Collins made the following radio call to ‘Bravo 33’ at just about the same moment the CALDWELL video was being recorded and Todd Abel was telling DIVSA Eric Marsh “We’ll get some Air Support down there ASAP”.
NOTE: This is part of the exact transcript from the 40 minute and 14 second long Air-To-Air channel video 20130630_1628_EP which actually begins at 1547.46 ( 3:47.46 PM )…
____________________________________
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): (Copy) Ground contact Alpha.
____________________________________
Again as it may have been lost departing Air Attack to there replacement gives a list of contacts so the new Air Attack knows who is talking and who to contact in the different areas of the fire.
Question Did Marsh actually order any Air tanker drops in his division in the afternoon after 1200?
His Division was quiet till the Fire burned across it. at 1630. With out a map and a shift plan did any one know where any one was or even what DIV-A was or where. The crew was on the East side of the burn not really the south side of the fire. the south side of the fir was where the flaming front was if my memory serves me right the towns were on the east side as well.
Reply to Bob Powers post on
September 12, 2014 at 3:33 pm
.>> Bob Powers asked…
>>
>> Question Did Marsh actually order
>> any Air tanker drops in his division
>> in the afternoon after 1200?
From about 11:00 AM until ????… the VLATs were being used to build that massive line of retardant out there in that ‘bowl’ which extended pretty much from where GM was working all the way to the EAST to a point where Harper Canyon ends.
This is the same looong retardant line that shows up later in some of the GM photos taken from out on the ridge. One of MacKenzie’s photos shows those two cremembers standing on those orange rocks and actually captures the VLAT ‘completing’ that retardant line way over at the EAST end of it.
This is also the retardant line that the VLAT was building across that valley when it almost had that collision with that skycrane helicopter… which was captured in a video.
We do NOT KNOW what involvement DIVSA Eric Marsh had with building this line of retardant that day.
Heck… we still don’t even know whose IDEA it was since Air Attack Rory Collins ( who was still AA when that line was being built ) has never really been properly interviewed.
For all we know… that ENTIRE project was actually DIVSA Marsh’s idea… and he WAS standing up there on that ridge DIRECTING the drops for it.
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> His Division was quiet till the Fire burned
>> across it. at 1630. With out a map and
>> a shift plan did any one know where
>> any one was or even what DIV-A was
>> or where.
Air Attack Rory Collins knew exactly where DIVSA Marsh and GMIHC were working.
Bravo 33 supposedly flew that mission to specifically verify their location later that afternoon at the request of OPS1 Todd Abel… so they ( supposedly ) knew exactly where they were.
Well… at least where GM was.
There is still that possible radio capture in one of the Panebaker videos were we SEEM to hear Burfiend in Bravo 33 telling someone on the ground over A2G channel that he has spotted GM ‘beyond some hills’ and ‘on the corner of the fire’… but he was also telling ground personnel to call GM and ask them directly if DIVSA was actually WITH them.
So ( if that radio capture is what it appears to be ) that means Bravo 33 had achieved their own visual on GM in the 1616 timeframe… but they still had no idea where DIVSA was… and they WANTED someone on the ground to FIND OUT and tell them.
No one did.
That’s when all those other communications with GM took place regarding “What’s your status?” and were hear Marsh saying they were heading SOUTH… on the ‘same escape route as this morning’.
That’s also where we hear someone do exactly what Burfiend asked and then ask Marsh directly… “Are you WITH Granite Mountain right now?”
Eric Marsh totally dodges the question and only says…
“Ah… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.”
>> Bob Powers also said…
>>
>> The crew was on the East side of the
>> burn not really the south side of the
>> fire. the south side of the fir was where
>> the flaming front was if my memory
>> serves me right the towns were on
>> the east side as well.
Well… this has always been a little confusing.
A lot of people have just come to assume that the actual RIDGE that Granite Mountain was working on ( and that high-ridge two-track itself ) was running due north / south.
That is NOT the case.
In reality… that ridge runs pretty much from a northest to southeast direction.
What that means is that even when you are looking at the MacKenzie photos and videos and you want to say that the ‘smoke’ seems to be blowing EAST… that really isn’t the case.
Even if it was blowing parallel AWAY from the western ridge… that means there was already a ‘southerly’ component to its direction.
I’m not sure about your first sentence.
GM was always on the WEST side of just about everything that day… but the second part of your statement seems correct, yes… as long as you remember that Yarnell itself ( and certainly Glen Ilah ) was never ‘due EAST’ of where they were walking. It was always to the SOUTHEAST. The Boulder Springs Ranch itself was MUCH more ‘south’ than it was ‘east’ of the anchor point.
Typo in last comment above.
I really didn’t mean to type ‘walking’.
I meant to type ‘working’.
The ANCHOR POINT where they were ‘working’ was not really ‘due West’ of Yarnell. It was more like to the ‘northwest’.
So it can’t be said that Yarnell or Glen Ilah were ‘due EAST’ of the anchor point.
More like ‘southeast’ of there.
Does that make sense?
Basically talking in a general location.
when discussing location where GM was on the East Or SE side of the older 2 day burn.
west south west of Yarnell.,
you are right in the lay out of the fire. in general terms the fire line that GM worked was on the SE or eastern side of the old fire the northern side was peoples valley. Glen Ilah laid to the south east. At no time was DIVA on the south side of the fire it laid from the fire starting point back to the NE to the division line of DIVA and DIVZ. although that was a somewhat fuzzy location.
WTKTT said 9/13/14 12:21 AM
“Heck… we still don’t even know whose IDEA it was since Air Attack Rory Collins ( who was still AA when that line was being built ) has never really been properly interviewed.
For all we know… that ENTIRE project was actually DIVSA Marsh’s idea… and he WAS standing up there on that ridge DIRECTING the drops for it.”
–You are right about Rory Collins, he needs a proper interview for sure. My first question would be about strategy and tactics and where the plan came from to drop on GM’s burnout and force them to go direct? OPS? This is one of those things that could have changed the outcome of the day.
As far as the VLAT retardant line through the green, I as well would love to know who’s plan that was. Figuring Rory Collins was AA at the beginning of that plan, I suspect he had a lot to do with it along with both OPS/SGSP. Sad, he’s an ODF guy, different fuel type there and not the same as the SW, different weather, his inexperience is glaring. Going indirect (that retardant was good and dry when the fire reached it) with the big bad VLAT won’t stop fire not only in that fuel type but add the incoming weather…oh wait, we don’t know what he heard or said because he wasn’t properly interviewed.
I don’t believe DIVSA would have been involved in developing the plan for the VLAT line. I can’t see a DIVS being needed to direct VLAT indirect retardant drops…they had good visibility, a lead, and it would be rare for a VLAT to talk to the ground resources, etc. And considering Collins and Eric had already miscommunicated regarding the SEAT drops too. Which is interesting, force SEAT drops onto indirect burnout (they were bringing black with them) on GM and tell GM they’re to change tactics and go direct, then as the day continues on the VLATs are going indirect. WTF. (GM could have asked them to treat the green side of the burnout and they missed, but this isn’t the case on YHF). GM’s/Eric’s plan to bring the black with them along that two track was a normal technique until retardant was dropped on their burn.
SIDENOTE:
Regarding that wordpress blog…it’s unfortunate she is doing this. I struggle with her motivation? How can trying to rationalize the 10 Standard down to nothing do any good? Sorry EN, we don’t change policy here, it’s just an unfiltered blog sweetheart. It’s funny, she picked on #10 and that’s the one if you don’t fully follow it and therefore all the other 9, you could really die. And to relate firefighting to a normal day or peeing in a pool rules, that’s ludicrous. And yes EN, a good day, matter fact the only good day is when you bring them home safe and alive.
Fire20+ An excellent line of information
Lot of wasted slurry in my opinion.
Glad to se you back. Fire season winding down?
In terms of why I feel the “end of shift” motive is far-fetched, well, I have to note I was sort of vested in the idea that they weren’t just tired and trying to get down even before the reports raising the possibility of an argument or even series of calls came out. Certainly getting off the hill could make them want to move, but tends not to involve a high degree of urgency. So, the type of bushwhack they committed to might be the sort of mistake casual hikers make at the end of the day, but since they had other options it just doesn’t process for me in this case. When you add to that the possibility of sharp disagreement over route choice, and hopefully at least some potential mindfulness of great risk, it just seems even more strange to me that someone would simply be so committed to wanting to get off the hill simply because the end of the shift was coming.
But, I am often wrong. If there were a few separate short, sharp discussions over why GM needed to get down to the ranch, possibly those discussions also covered the “why.”
I can understand what you are saying. I spent a lot of time digesting this till I just decided that was the only conclusion I could feel comfortable with.
Based on my past experience Un less the fire was biting at GM’s butt
there was no reason to move. Then they packed up lined up and moved out. They knew where there trucks would be and that the radio was full of traffic of people pulling out to safety areas. What was the value in moving to reengage when every one else was finding a safe place to watch the fire
like at the restaurant. The crews 12 hour shift was about over at 1800 they would have 12 hours in the new way to fight fire 12 hr. shifts unless otherwise authorized they could have extended it a little further but their assignment had ended abruptly when the fire escaped its containment and would burn back to their hand line.
I would say in that heat and the hand line they put in they were getting close to burnout physically. In the sun all day in those temp. will drain the most physically fit.
Reply to calvin post on September 10, 2014 at 12:58 pm
NOTE: This was brought up from down below in a thread that was running out of room.
>> calvin said…
>>
>> If there was nothing for GM/Div A to do with the dozer, then what
>> were they (Hernandez and Ball) doing with the dozer?
calvin…
With absolutely NO interview ever done of Justin Hernandez himself ( the dozer operator )… and almost half of Ball’s Unit Log notes REDACTED… it still remains a total mystery what was going on with Hernandez and that dozer after it suddenly ‘abandoned’ what it was doing in the Shrine Road / Harper’s Canyon area ( as testified to by the Peeples Valley Firefighters who would very soon after that be 2 of the 6 FFs who almost burned to death there in Harper Canyon ).
The Peeples Valley FFs said that it just suddenly STOPPED finishing connecting that Cutover Trail improvement that BR had been working on to the work that the Harper’s Canyon crew of 6 had been doing… ( as was the original plan ) and it just ‘disappeared’ without Hernandez or Ball saying anything to anyone.
There is ONE reference in SAIT notes to the ‘dozer’ then returning SOUTH to Glen Ilah to where its trailer was there at the end of the pavement where Lakewood and Manazaita drive(s) end… and there is ONE reference to Ball then being ‘instructed by Cordes to scout out a possible new dozer-break near the outskirts of Glen Ilah’. at or around the same time everyone was already ‘evacuating’ from the Shrine / Youth Camp area…
…but we have no idea how far that ‘plan’ ever progressed… or whether Hernandez and the Dozer ever got involved.
The SAIT notes ( and BR unit logs ) SEEM to indicate that Ball never even really got the chance to do this ‘scouting’ that Cordes asked him to. The fire was simply moving too fast at that time and even Cordes’ request for Ball to do this just seems to indicate SPGS1 Gary Cordes still had not comprehended just how FAST that fire was moving around that time.
Ball SEEMS to say that AS he was headed out to the west end of Glen Ilah to ‘scout that out’ is when HE discovered the fire had already reached the outskirts of Glen Ilah and that it was then Ball himself who abandoned that scouting mission and then radioed back to Cordes to “not let anyone else back here”. Ball’s Unit log then immediately says he witnessed helicopters ‘dropping’ there at the end of Lakewood and Manzanita.
So… had Hernandez already MOVED the dozer out of that are and back to Highway 89… or did Hernandez really get TRAPPED there in that clearing and had to ‘ride out the burnover’ there where his low-boy trailer was parked all day?
It really was ‘absurd’ for Cordes to even ask Ball to go ‘scout that out’ at that time in the incident.
The fire had ALREADY just walked right over a very hefty retardant line out there in the middle bowl and then just marched right OVER the OTHER ‘firebreak’ that Hernandez had been working on all morning… TWO 12-foot blades wide in places.
So there was no reason to think that any last-ditch dozer push on some other scrawny vegetation-infested trail anywhere further south was going to stop “The Big Dog” either during that amazing burn cycle. Not in their dreams.
But back to your question ( because it is STILL a legitimate one )….
We also have no idea what TAC channel radio traffic there was about this ‘last ditch’ plan to scrape some more trail ( if there even was one ) closer to Glen Ilah.
If there WAS radio traffic about this… then YES… maybe Marsh heard all of it and maybe Marsh THOUGHT that was ‘the plan back there in town’.
It’s still possible.
It is also still possible that Marsh ( with his DIVSA hat fully on his head ) then just thought that if THAT was the plan… and that this ‘dozer push’ was going to in any way try to connect to the clearing of the Boulder Springs Ranch itself… that maybe ( just maybe ) the Hotshot crew assigned to Division A ( Granite Mountain ) *might* be able to get there and ‘help improve that line’.
I still see no reason why that kind of ill-conceived and ill-informed ‘idea’ about what Granite Mountain ought to try to do would be incompatible with OTHER theories such as the one I just proposed about Marsh thinking ( and acting ) PRIMARILY with his DIVSA hat on and coming up with is OWN assignments for HIMSELF regardless of what was going on with Granite Mountain.
BOTH of those theories could actually ‘dovetail’ together… if more evidence emerges.
Marsh could have been already on his way towards town to fulfill his own imagined assignment of NEEDING to get to town and be ‘point man’ for the upcoming’ Air Support that Abel just said he was ‘sending down there ASAP’… and didn’t even really CARE if Jesse was ‘bringing the guys along the same route’… and it could have been Steed who then had the thought all on his own about GM possibly helping with that last-ditch-effort dozer push near Glen Ilah.
Heck… maybe that is what the 3 or 4 radio calls were all about and the (supposed) argument.
It was a fast-developing situation in that timeframe.
Maybe Steed was saying NO to Marsh’s requests for GM to ‘follow his pink tape’ and try to get to the BSR… until Steed maybe became aware of this ‘last-ditch-dozer-push’ effort that THAT is what made Steed change his mind and his ‘comfort level’ about attempting the move.
Yea… I know… enough speculation up above to choke a horse… but I was just trying to respond to calvin about this mysterious ‘last-ditch-effor’ dozer push and whether GM would have even been aware it was being attempted ( but NOT aware it wasn’t going to come together ).
It is POSSIBLE.
We simply don’t know enough to say whether it factored into any decision making, or not.
( Here it comes again… that worn out ‘who might know’ phrase )…
If we never ever hear from Hernandez or Ball again… Brendan McDonough still might know.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> With the new theory of Marsh being the point person on the south side of the fire,
>> and the only DivS, it seems very conceivable that they were possibly/potentially
>> working together.
Whoops… response to the SECOND part of calvin’s original comment got ‘cut off’.
Here is how the post above should have ended…
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> With the new theory of Marsh being the point person on the south side of the fire,
>> and the only DivS, it seems very conceivable that they were possibly/potentially
>> working together.
See above. YES… it is still POSSIBLE. I think it all comes down to ‘awareness’ and ‘radio traffic’ concerning this ‘last ditch effort’. If Ball received this assignment ‘face-to-face’ from SPGSA Gary Cordes then it’s doubtful anyone out west on the high ridge was even aware it was being attempted.
If there was a bunch of RADIO traffic about this ‘last-ditch-effort’ plan over the TAC 1 channels… then YES…DIVSA Eric Marsh and GMIHC SUP Jesse Steed might have BOTH heard ALL of it… and thought the ‘plan was active’ ( and not called off )… and it *might* have factored into some decision making up there on that western ridge.
Someday… somehow… Justin Hernandez needs to be INTERVIEWED.
Like you said enough there to chock a horse. The only thing tat made science Ball went back to his flat bead loaded up and got his equipment the hell out of there.
again you are talking a frontal assault on a running fire head just doesn’t happen.
The only thing we know for real Marsh was doing his own thing what ever that was with out supervision or direction or contact with OPS.
I think were are off to a road to no where on this scenario. There was some control and supervision by OPS and the IC no one asked Marsh to do any of this or thought Marsh was doing any of it in there interviews. I say again there is still a chain of command even with the fire going to hell people are still in charge of directing the suppression, people do not normally free lance in these situations as it creates more cayuse than it accomplishes.
Followup to comments above…
Even though BR Hotshot Ball’s Unit Log notes are HEAVILY redacted… there is that one section that remains un-redacted where he describes attempting this ‘scouting mission’ for a ‘last-ditch-effort’ firebreak somewhere near the outskirts of Glen Ilah.
That’s where Ball says that by the time he even reached the end of Lakewood and Manzanita Drive(s) to even attempt this ‘scouting mission’… there were already houses fully ablaze there. The part where he says he then immediately called Cordes ( over the radio ) and told him “Don’t let anyone else back here!” is also un-redacted.
So we appear to have PROOF that Ball was communicating over the TAC channels back to Cordes at THAT point… when he realized the ‘scouting mission’ wasn’t even feasible and that it was now so bad back there that no one else should even ATTEMPT to get ‘back there’…
…but that doesn’t mean Ball said anything specific back to Cordes over the radio like “…And I’m NOT going to be able to scout for that firebreak you asked me too.
So even if Marsh and/or Steed heard about the PLAN itself over the radio… they might still have NOT then heard the followup traffic from Ball that it was simply impossible and it was NOT going to happen.
It is POSSIBLE Marsh and Steed thought it WAS ‘still happening’.
Why they wouldn’t have been further communicating with anyone about their own plans to try and ‘help out’ with this ill-conceived plan just plays back into their generally HORRIBLE use of the radio that day ( and as a general bad work habit on their part? ).
We DO still have the YARNELL-GAMBLE video, however.
At exactly 4:27 PM… Marsh was reporting directly to SOMEONE about GM’s ‘progress’ and it also appears that SOMEONE was urging them to ‘hurry’.
SIDENOTE: Speaking of ‘progress report’… I have said this before but just wanted to remind everyone that just about 120 seconds after the YARNELL-GAMBLE video ended… a Panebaker video captures the following mysterious exchange between OPS1 Todd Abel and SPGS2/DIVS Darrell Willis.
Darrell Willis called Abel… and Able just gave a one-word response…
Darrell Willis: Any progress?
Tod Abel: Yup.
That is ALL they said to each other over the radio… but it was said 120 seconds after we hear Eric Marsh giving his ‘progress report’ about GM to SOMEONE at exactly 4:27 PM and (clearly) said “They’re comin’ from the heel of the fire”.
Is it possible that was the request coming from Musser at 1540- 1542 (assist Ball/ Hernandez? . It was then followed (minutes later)with a confirmation from Abel of air support ASAP.. And then GM stops taking photos and walks into the bowl.
There has been little discussion of the order for the 6-7 LAT’s at 1604 and the possibility that more air support was coming? Has there been any information regarding what Marsh knew (or didn’t know) concerning available incoming aircraft?
The first sentence should have read.
Could the request coming from Musser for GM to spare resources in Yarnell have been related to the line building plan?
Reply to calvin post on September 10, 2014 at 6:26 pm
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Could the request coming from Musser for GM to spare resources
>> in Yarnell have been related to the line building plan?
I, myself, would have to say “I don’t think so”… for several reasons.
I still believe Paul Musser made that ‘availability check’ out to DIVSA Marsh circa 1542 just BEFORE he actually met up with SPGS1 Gary Cordes there on the side of Highway 89 near the Shrine Road.
That is the way Musser himself described the ‘timing’ on his ‘availability check’ in his own ADOSH interview.
Also… in that same ADOSH interview… Musser mentions NOTHING ( Zero, Zip, Nada ) about this ‘last-ditch-plan’ to try and find some more ground to scrape close to Glen Ilah.
I still think this was actually conceived between Cordes and Ball face-to-face at the Ranch House Restaurant and that is when someone in that white truck drove Ball over to the Yarnell Fire Station to borrow that ATV in order to try to do this ‘scouting’.
By the time Ball got that ATV from Yarnell Fire Station and then got all the way out to the end of Lakewood / Manzanita… the fire was already setting homes ablaze in that area.
That’s when Ball abandoned any attempt to do this ‘scouting’ out that way and he then immediately radioed Cordes, told him what he was seeing out there, and told Cordes “Don’t let ANYONE else back here”… and then he returned to the RHR.
That’s how I think it went down ( but I am still not certain ).
Followup to above…
We KNOW that Gary Cordes was NOT at the Ranch House Restaurant circa 1542… when Musser met up with him on the side of Highway 89.
That ‘meet up’ ( according to BOTH men in their ADOSH interviews ) actually happened at that spot on Highway 89 right near Shrine Road where Cordes was ‘supposedly’ acting as the THIRD designated ‘lookout’ for the men working out in Harper Canyon / Youth Camp area.
We do NOT know where or when Ball might have ‘met up’ with Cordes and was then instructed by Cordes to go and scout out a possible ‘new firebreak’ near Glen Ilah.
That is when someone in a white pickup drove Ball to the Yarnell Fire Station so Ball could borrow and ATV and launch off on this ‘scouting mission’ Cordes has just given him.
I still say that it is crucial to know whether Ball received these ‘instructions’ from Cordes face-to-face… or over the radio.
If it was face-to-face ( wherever Cordes was at that time )… then it is doubtful that Marsh or Steed ( or just about anyone else on the fire, for that matter ) KNEW that this ‘last-ditch line-building’ effort was even a possible plan that day.
It was not face-to-face with Cordes… and these ‘instructions’ to Ball from Cordes were over the TAC channels… then YES… it is highly LIKELY that both Marsh and Steed ‘heard all about it’ and may have thought it was a full-blown ‘last-ditch’ PLAN that WAS being put into effect.
If Marsh and Steed simply BELIEVED it was a plan that was ‘going to happen ASAP’… then it MIGHT have factored into their decisions.
All through the hike… they might have continued to assume that plan WAS ‘in progress’ down there near the Boulder Springs Ranch because they might have never heard Ball’s follow-up to Cordes that he wasn’t even going to be able to accomplish the scouting itself.
Yes… the idea itself represent just more ‘wrongs assumptions’ that day… more ‘bad communications’… but the important thing is that if DIVSA Marsh and/or GMIHC SUP Steed simply had CONVINCED themselves it was, in fact, ‘happening down there’… it *might* have factored into their own ( private ) decision making.
I still believe Abel’s confirmation of “air support down there ASAP” had something to do with changing Steed’s mind.
There was nothing physically Marsh could do to protect GM from the fire and I do not think Marsh twisted their arms.
Something made them feel comfortable walking down into that canyon.
OK so while I disagree with what your saying and where your going
I am going to shut up and listen show me the facts.
I have spent the past month talking out mine.
Air attack and lead plane no where near the canyon where was the retardant?
From what I have seen being dumped on the towns trying to save civilians and homes
With a running fire dropping in front of it would not even slow it down.
You need to learn some lessons about retardant and how and when it is used.
So I Stop here show me your facts.
My fact list will be short.
We hear Todd Abel tell Eric Marsh that air support is coming ASAP. The fire was already running south. B33 testifies that he was flying through the middle bowl West to East when Marsh comes on the radio with “that is exactly where we want the retardant.”
Are you saying that the air support Abel indicates is coming was something other than retardant?
NO I am saying as we discussed for a long time.
That is exactly where we want it was not said by Marsh.
But some one near town where the drop was.
Mr. Powers… yes… we DID spend a lot of time ‘debunking’ that statement in the SAIR… but the review of those IMG_1334 and IMG_1335 images taken at 4:30 would seem to cast some real doubt on at least the assumption that if Marsh was down in the box canyon… that he would have been unable to even SEE what the aircraft were doing in order to even be able to been the one making that “That’s where we want retardant” radio call.
IMG_1334 and IMG_1335 seem to be ‘new’ proof that YES… wherever Marsh was ‘out there’ at 1637 ( and it had to be within 120 seconds hard run from the deployment site ) he most probably COULD have seen what Bravo 33 was doing even if it was over there towards town.
So all we are talking about here is reconsidering that statement in the SAIR and whether it actually could be true or not.
The ONE big thing we have NEVER known is exactly HOW the SAIR was attributing that statment to Marsh in such a way that they were calling it ‘a VERIFIED transmission’ and then used it as the de-facto END of that 30 minute period when they say they had no other VERIFIABLE transmissions from Marsh or Steed.
Even the SAIT notes do NOT actually tell us what John Burfiend actually thinks he HEARD… or what he actually said to the SAIT.
ADOSH was only able to do a ‘phone’ interview with Bravo 33 and even their own ‘notes’ from that phone call are just short and cryptic. Astoundingly… ADOSH apparently didn’t ask Burfiend anything about this 1637 transmission.
It all comes down to this…
Did John Burfiend actually hear CALL SIGNS associated with that radio transmission, or NOT?
If Burfiend is absolutely SURE that that radio call was preceded with “Bravo 33, this is Division Alpha, on Air To Ground’… then that means everything.
We can also hear with our own ears in the Helmet-Cam video that whenever Marsh was speaking with Air-To-Ground ( even in what would turn out to be the last radio transmission of his life )… Marsh was still following ‘radio protocol’ and even then he WAITED for Bravo 33 to acknowledge his request to speak to them before then actually telling them “We’re deploying shelters down here”.
That means that if it really was Marsh talking to Bravo 33 just 2 minutes before that ( at 1637 )… that radio exchange most probably would have HAD to have sounded like THIS…
——————————————————–
Eric Marsh: “Bravo 33 ( or Air Attack ), This is Division Alpha, on Air-To-Ground”
John Burfiend: Go ahead, Alpha.
Eric Marsh: “Yea… That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
John Burfiend: Copy that.
—————————————————————–
Or something just like that.
I would actually think that Burfiend would have come back with something more along the lines of…
Burfiend: “Alpha… copy your last… but what the fuck are you talking about? The last drop we did, or what?”
…but that is neither here nor there.
We’re still just talking about whether that transmission from Marsh actually happened, or not, and not whether Burfiend would have even had the faintest idea what Marsh was talking about.
If that really is how that 1637 transmission went… and there was NO DOUBT in Burfiend’s mind who was talking to him from the ground at that point… then we really might have to accept that this really is what Marsh was ‘doing’ and ‘saying’ just 120 seconds before Captain Jesse Steed’s first MAYDAY.
I could still EASILY accept that Burfiend might have simply been mistaken about who was telling him that and that it WAS simply a ‘that is gooness’ call from just about anyone regarding the drop that had just taken place there near town…
…but if we could only somehow find out if Burfiend was SURE he heard that ‘Division Alpha’ prefix on that call… then unless the man is delusional or a liar… we have to accept that the 1637 transmission really WAS from DIVSA Eric Marsh…
…and then we have to accept the next logical conclusion.
That would be that even at 1637… Eric Marsh was still trying to be a good DIVSA and felt that HE needed to be providing input to Air Attack with regards to retardant drops.
That would also speak to HIS entire possible motivation ( at least in HIS own mind ) for HIM feeling the need to ‘get to town’.
Why Steed and the Crew would be feeling the same need would still remain its own separate mystery that would need its own answers… but at least we then have a plausible explanation for why the DIVSA that day felt like HE ‘needed to get down there’.
For him ( DIVSA ) it was all about directing retardant drops, like he had ( apparently ) been doing all day, anyway.
The only thing here that does not fit is why then were they dropping clear over in or near Town? What also are we assuming is the middle bowl? Not the canyon the crew was in.
More towards and above Glen Alia?
Well… the OTHER thing that also still ‘does not fit’ is the fact that the SAIR seems to state unequivocally ( but, of course, without providing any real sources for their conclusions ) that the radio conversation we hear at the start of the Helmet-Cam video was OPS1 Todd Abel talking to B33 John Burfiend on the A2G channel ( and NOT Eric Marsh ).
The SAIR says exactly this…
———————————————–
The aircraft crew is in the middle of a discussion with OPS1 on the air-to-ground frequency and the pilot is talking to the VLAT on the air-to-air frequency when an overmodulated and static-filled transmission comes over the air-to-ground frequency at 1639:
———————————————–
Notice that the SAIR actually accidentally admits that there were, in fact, THREE souls onboard Bravo 33 at that time.
FIRST they say ‘the crew (plural) is in the middle of a discussion with OPS1 on the air-to-ground frequency”
This matches the exact timing of what we hear at the start of the Helmet Cam video. Burfiend was on A2G and the other ‘crew member’, Clint Clauson, was Burfiend’s ‘trainee’ and ALSO ‘listening in’ on the A@G channel and the one that was keeping that ‘written log’ aboard Bravo 33 that day.
THEN the SAIR says…
“and the pilot is talking to the VLAT on the air-to-air frequency”.
This also matches exactly what we can hear with out own ears in the Panebaker Air Study video that was capturing all the Air-To-Air traffic at this same (1637) moment.
So there is the SAIR pretty much successfully descrbing what we can hear with our own ears for BOTH of these men.
John Burfiend: Captured in Helmet-Cam having this ‘conversation with ?? ( SAIR says it was Todd Abel ).
Thomas French: Captured in Panebaker video talking directly to VLAT pilot Kevin in the inbound VLAT.
HOW the SAIT was directly attributing the A2G conversation to OPS1 Todd Abel.. we do NOT know.
So it all comes down to this…
If you believe the SAIT is ‘getting that right’… then it is NOT Eric Marsh who was on the other end of that conversation we hear at the start of the Helmet-Cam video. It was OPS1 Todd Abel. The conversation might STILL have been all about Marsh’s (supposed) retardant drop comments just 120 seconds earlier at 1637 and it was simply Todd Able doing the ‘followup’ with Burfiend and asking him if he could accomplish was DIVSA Marsh had just requested… but the SAIT notes about all this are a joke and OPS1 Abel makes absolutely NO mention of ANY of this in his own ADOSH interview.
If you do NOT believe the SAIT was ‘getting this right’… then there is every chance in the world that what we are hearing at the start of the Helmet-Cam video is Burfiend speaking directly to Eric Marsh and making that ‘report’ that they will try to do what he wants but its going to be ‘tough on them’ because of ‘that valley and all that smoke’.
It is still unbelievable ( to me, anyway ) that we have to be ‘guessing’ about this very important conversation.
Whether Burfiend was actually talking directly TO Marsh about a possible ‘drop’ there at the start of the Helmet-Cam video… OR ( as the SAIT seems to think ) Burfiend was talking to OPS1 Todd Able about their ability to ‘drop’ somewhere specific ( in the valley )…
…you would think this would have all been straightened out long before now by one or both sets of investigators.
You would be wrong.
BOTH sets of investigators really botched up the ‘discovery’ on just this one imortant part of the timeline.
That is not what B33 says in their interview notes. But who knows?
I just wonder if the beginning of the helmet cam video captures B33’s response to Marsh?
I wonder why the SAIT felt so comfortable quoting DivA, as if they had a direct audio of him saying that. They put it in quotation marks indicating a direct quote, right?
It just makes you wonder if that could be other audio/video that wasn’t released with the FOI requests?
I have always read the events around 1637 as follows.
1. B33 flies over DivA at 1637 and Marsh says that is exactly where we want it.
2. B33 was lining up a drop path for a VLAT when he overflew Marsh.
3. No fire retardant was dropped and B33 put the VLAT in a holding pattern while B33 looked for GM.
4. After no retardant was delivered, Marsh ran to the crew.
5. Steed makes the “We are in front of the flaming front callout”
I am not saying this is accurate, but it has always just seemed to make sense.
And the 4490red video seemed to show the VLAT flying through the middle bowl and turning North and dropping retardant along the west side of 89. That video seemed to show no signs of distress when it began and I believe that it happened before the callout from Steed.
calvin… see my response to your other post below.
It contains a similar kind of ‘Here is what might have happened’ in those 120 seconds between 1637 and 1639 but it is more just a simple ‘possible conversation’ that would show how Marsh’s 1637 call ( if that really was him ) would have ‘flowed’ directly into what we are then hearing at the start of the Helmet-Cam video.
If that really was Marsh ‘asking’ for retardant at 1637… then it would have only taken one or two more quick exchanges with Burfiend trying to CLARIFY what he meant for us to arrive right at the part of that same conversation we might be hearing at the start of the Helmet-Cam video.
Remember… Burfiend himself said that he was “trying to stay 2 or 3 drops ahead of French” at that point in time.
It was Burfiend’s job ( as Air Attack ) to be ‘fielding requests’ and ‘staying ahead’ of French so that the minute Lead Plane French was finished with one thing Air Attack Burfiend could tell him where the next drop should be. That’s what they were doing.
So if Burfiend really took Marsh’s ‘call up’ as a valid request from a DIVSA on the fire as to where to do a ‘drop’… then Burfiend WOULD have been communicating BACK to Marsh to verify so he could have those details ready for French.
At 1637 it was still ‘business as usual’.
No one knew Steed was about to come onto the radio yelling his first MAYDAY.
If a valid DIVSA on that south part of the fire was calling up to Air Attack with a valid request for a drop… it was Burfiend’s JOB to them communicate back and confirm details.
Also REMEMBER… French and Burfiend had been TOLD directly by the departing Rory Collins that HIS contact there on the SOUTH part of the fire all day WAS, in fact, “Division Alpha”.
They were TOLD that by the other Air Attack.
Burfiend was now ‘Air Attack’. and trying to stay ‘3 drops ahead’ of Lead Plane Thomas French ( sitting right next to him in the same plane ).
If Burfiend heard a valid call coming up from ‘Division Alpha’ over that SOUTH part of the fire then he already knew he was SUPPOSED to pay attention to that and try and honor his requests… if possible.
Calvin I thought we found a picture of a retardant drop around that 1637 time period near Glen Alia.
That is what keyed us back to maybe it was some one in that area as there was a drop at that time. Or I am getting lost in the circles.
Mr Powers.
I believe there was a SEAT drop at 1635 (?), but I have always thought the call from Marsh was only to the lead plane and was not an indication of an actual drop. I thought B33 was lining up a drop for the VLAT. I could be off base.
So the drop coincided with the statement?
Why would Marsh comment on a drop near town?
” that’s exactly what were looking for ”
This is where I am getting lost it dose not fit the event. nor has any reason if it is Marsh.
Calvin—I need something to fit it together.
Are you sure it was on air to ground?
No one responded?
What we nailed down previously… via close listening to the Panebaker Air-To-Air Channel traffic captures circa 1630-1640… was that Thomas French guided an amazingly successful SEAT drop there on the south side of the fire at exactly 1633 PM. The pilot of the SEAT said “Off the drop’ at about exactly 1633 plus 20 seconds… and then we hear French congratulating him about how ‘spot on’ it was. The drop went RIGHT between a structure and the advancing fireline there on the outskirts of Yarnell.
That drop was, apparently, so ‘spot on’ and exactly the kind of thing needed at that time that it is perfectly possible just about ANYONE on the south side of the fire with a radio ( including either one of the two choppers that were already working that area ) could have jumped onto the A2G channel with an unsolicited transmission saying. “That’s what we are looking for. That’s exactly what we want”.
Helicopter Five Kilo Alpha had already done that sort of thing two or three times that day up on the north end of the fire… so that kind of unsolicited ‘atta boy!’ encouragement traffic following a retardant drop is apparently tolerated ( and almost expected ) on fires like this.
Immediately after that 1633 ‘spot on’ SEAT drop… Thomas French turned his attention to the INBOUND VLAT with pilot ‘Kevin’ onboard.
French started bringing him in from the SOUTH where he had been ‘waiting’ for permission to ‘come on in’… and French was in the process of trying to postion himself in front of Kevin as he brought the VLAT in from the SOUTH.
That is what French and VLAT pilot ‘Kevin’ were doing when the first MAYDAY hit the radio.
If French had been ‘seen’ traveling on any kind of ‘west to east’ route… it wasn’t because that is where he was lining up a drop… it’s because that was part of his ‘circling around’ to try and get ‘in front’ of Kevin in the VLAT that was inbound from the SOUTH.
But at the time we were listening to all these Air-To-Air captures and figurinig out EXACTLY which plane was where and doing what circa 1637 to 1639… we had ALSO just been assuming that this activity on the EAST side of the smoke cloud would simply NOT have been visible to Marsh from out in the box canyon.
The IMG_1334 and IMG_1335 photos seem to prove that ‘assumption’ might be wrong.
Those photos ‘seem’ to prove that YES… Marsh probably COULD have seen all this plane activity on the EAST side of the smoke cloud from wherever he might have been out in the box canyon.
Reply to calvin post on September 11, 2014 at 11:43 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> That is not what B33 says in their interview notes.
>> But who knows?
Correct. The final SAIR actually reports it happening as one of those TO / FROM / MESSAGE style transmissions where the caller does NOT wait for permission to speak and just puts the MESSAGE right into the callout.
Here is exactly the way the SAIR reported it…
SAIR – PDF page 33…
——————————————-
At 1637, ASM2 flies a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell west to east and apparently over DIVS A, turning northward to avoid high ground at the end of Yarnell. DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “[ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
——————————————-
SIDENOTE: My reason for believing it did NOT happen that way ( if it happened at all ) were stated above. It’s because about 3 minutes from that point… we are going to hear with our own ears how Eric Marsh usually ‘contacted’ Bravo33 and even in the last moments of his life he didn’t just ‘blast away’ at them with a TO / FROM / MESSAGE style. Marsh showed that his normal way of contacting Air Attack was to first make the usual call-sign request… wait for a go-ahead… and then continue with your actual transmission of information.
Now… compare what appeared in the SAIR to the SAIT notes themselves from their interview with Burfiend, French, and Clauson ( B33 )…
——————————————–
We came around, made a practice run through the bowl, west to east. I was talking to Tom about the rising terrain on exit. Division A clad and said “that is what we are looking for, that is exactly right”.
——————————————–
The SAIR made it sound like Marsh made one contiguous TO / FROM / MESSAGE style radio call… but the SAIT notes don’t ‘officially’ indicate that.
All Burfiend seems to report in the SAIT notes is…
“Division A called”.
That doesn’t tell us jack shit about how that call ACTUALLY took place… and even leaves room for doubt that there were any call signs at all and that Burfiend might have just been ASSUMING that ‘caller’ was ‘Division A’.
This is what I am saying.
We do NOT have a actual ‘transcrpt’ of that interview between the SAIT and Bravo33 ( much less an audio ) like we have for many other critical witnesses in the ADOSH material.
For anyone who testified to ADOSH… all we have to do if we are wondering what someone ACTUALLY told them is to go ‘look it up’. Not so with the SAIT crap. All we have are third-hand (crappy) NOTES about what someone might have ACTUALLY said they heard.
So what really happened with the SAIR thing?
Did Burfiend absolutely remember hearing the call sign ‘Division Alpha’ preceding that 1637 radio transmission, or did the SAIT just ’embelish’ his testimony and they added the call sign prefixes themselves in their final narrative?
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> It is also possible that the information the SAIT
>> used to assign this transmission to Marsh didn’t
>> come from Burfiend at all.
Yes. It was ( supposedly ) on the VERY popular A2G channel.
If that radio call WAS complete with call-sign prefixes… then lots of other people could ( and SHOULD ) have reported hearing it.
There has always also been a THIRD ‘mystery man’ aboard that plane. ( ATS Trainee Clint Clauson ) and he was PRESENT for the SAIT interview.
The only time he is then mentioned in the SAIT NOTES is in the first line when it says it was HIM ( Clint Clauson ) who was ‘recording some times that day’.
First line of SAIT B33 interview notes says…
“Clint did record a few times on air tankers departing and when the frantic call was made.”
If ATS Trainee Clint Clauson really is the one who was writing down the ‘real’ time when they were hearing certain radio transmissions… then maybe he also made a note about this (supposed) 1637 call from ‘Division Alpha’ regarding ‘retardant’.
We are being told right there that Bravo33 actually had SOME kind of ‘written log’ of radio communications and events and that it was being kept by ATS Trainee Clint Clauson… but as far as we know… no one has EVER seen that actual written log.
If the SAIT actually DID have this ‘Bravo33 log’ in their possesion… then it SHOULD have been released along with the other information required in the FOIA / FOIL requests.
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> I just wonder if the beginning of the helmet cam video
>> captures B33′s response to Marsh?
It really is still possible.
There HAD to be some reason why Aaron Hulburd turned his Helmet-Cam on when he did… and what we hear is that he decided to turn it on WHILE Burfiend was making that response to whoever he was talking to.
What if Hulburd realized this really was Eric Marsh having a discussion with Air Attack and he thought it was ‘interesting’ or ‘important’ enough to turn his camera on and try to capture that conversation. Hulburd would have had no idea he was about to actually capture all those MAYDAYS from Steed and then the actual deployment traffic… but he MAY have thought what he was hearing on the radio there was just interesting enough that it was time to turn his Helmet-Cam on.
I really would believe the following ‘summary’ of what actually happened between 1637 and 1639…
—————————————
Eric Marsh: Bravo33, Division Alpha, on Air-To-Ground
( Pause )
John Burfiend: Go ahead, Alpha.
( Pause )
Eric Marsh: Yea… that’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.
( Pause )
John Burfiend: Alpha… Copy your Last… but do you mean our last drop or the line we’re flying right now?
( Pause )
Eric Marsh: The line you’re on. That’s what we want.
( Pause )
NOTE: Aaron Hulburd is now hearing this exchange between Eric Marsh and Air Attack, thinks it is interesting enough to be recorded… and that is why he turns his Helmet-Cam on in time to capture this next response from Burfiend…
John Burfiend: (paraphrased) Copy that. We’ll give it our best shot but it’s gonna be awful tough on us with that valley and all that smoke.
( Pause )
Jesse Steed: ( Yelling over two chainsaws running near him ) BREAKING IN ON ARIZONA 16. GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS. WE ARE IN FRONT OF THE FLAMING FRONT!
—————————————————
The simple ‘summary’ up above only spans 120 seconds and I think the ‘Pauses’ could have easily added up to that whole simple exchange filling the entire 120 seconds.
Maybe more was said back-and-forth… maybe not.
If that really is the way it was going down… the REAL mystery would be why we even have to still guess about this. Why would Burfiend ( or anyone else who was listening to A2G ) not have reported that he was actually actively engaged in talking to Marsh WHILE Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the radio.
Surely he ( Burfiend himself ) would have remembered that’s what happened. Who wouldn’t?
And if the SAIT had no problem reporting about Marsh being the one to make the retardant request at 1637… then why would they not have been just as comfortable reporting that Marsh WAS actively ‘talking’ to Burfiend about that same retardant request WHILE Steed’s first MAYDAY hit the radio?
>> calvin
>>
>> I wonder why the SAIT felt so comfortable quoting
>> DivA, as if they had a direct audio of him saying that.
>> They put it in quotation marks indicating a direct
>> quote, right?
Exactly right. SOMETHING made them feel confident enough that that is EXACTLY what Eric Marsh said to actually put QUOTES around it in their final report.
Was it that they simply trusted Burfiend’s memory that much, or that Clint Clauson actually WROTE DOWN what was said ( if so… where is that written log? ), or that many OTHER people reported the hearing the same thing, or that they DO still have ( or were just allowed to listen to ) some actual RECORDING of that Air-To-Ground traffic…
…or ALL of the above?
SIDENOTE: ADOSH reports in their own released investigation notes that they checked with Air-Operations in Phoenix to see if THEY had tape recorders running on those Air-To-Air and Air-To-Ground frequencies that day.
The ADOSH notes say they were told that they actually normally DO record those channels back at Air Operations… but that the equipment was ‘not operating’ that day.
What if that is complete horseshit?
What if there really ARE recordings of all that Air-To-Ground traffic that day… but Air Operations only wanted Arizona Forestry to ever hear them and to hell with ADOSH?
>> calvin also said…
>>
>> It just makes you wonder if that could be other audio/video
>> that wasn’t released with the FOI requests?
See above. It certainly does… and not just audio/video, either.
Where is this WRITTEN LOG that the SAIT notes themselves say ATS Trainee Clint Clauson was keeping onboard Bravo33 that day?
Followup to above…
calvin is right… the SAIR did, in fact, put “QUOTE MARKS” around what they were reporting Marsh to have said to Air Attack ( Bravo 33 ) at 1637… almost as if they had some kind of ‘recording’ and they were THAT SURE that is what he said…
…but I forgot to emphasize above that these words being put directly into Marsh’s mouth by the SAIT people at 1637 bear LITTLE RESEMBLANCE to what their own SAIT notes say Burfiend himself TOLD them he heard.
Once again… here is what the SAIR actually PUBLISHED as FACT ( Complete with specific call signs added preceding the transmission )…
SAIR – PDF page 33…
——————————————-
DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “[ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
——————————————-
But HERE is what their own SAIT notes say Burfiend actually reported hearing…
——————————————–
We came around, made a practice run through the bowl, west to east. I was talking to Tom about the rising terrain on exit. Division A clad and said “that is what we are looking for, that is exactly right”.
——————————————–
So when did this ( Burfiend’s actual testimony )…
“Division A clad and said “that is what we are looking for, that is exactly right”.
Turn into this ( what the SAIT actually PUBLISHED )…
DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “[ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant.”
Notice that the SAIT seems to have added all the following ’embellishments’ to Burfiend’s actual testimony.
Their ’embellishments are listed in the order in which they appear in the published SAIR document…
1) Burfiend never said he was sure Marsh ‘saw the flight’. The SAIT is just adding that ‘assumption’ as if it was fact.
2) Burfiend never said whether Marsh seemed ‘calm’… or not. That is a total ’embellishment’ added by the SAIT.
3) The SAIT added CALL SIGNS to what Marsh said. Burfiend never seemed to say whether he heard call signs or not or whether he just was ‘assuming’ it was DIVSA calling because he might have *thought* he recognized the voice.
4) The SAIT takes the word ‘exactly’ OUT of Marsh’s second statement. ( as reported by Burfiend ) and just willy-nilly adds it to the FIRST statement instead. Burfiend never reported hearing that word.as part of the FIRST statement… only the SECOND one.
5) The SAIT totally changed Burfiend’s testimony about hearing “That is exactly right” into “That is where we want the RETARDANT”. The SAIT added the word RETARDANT all on their own just to fit their own narrative better, or something. Burfiend himself never actually reports hearing that specific word at all coming from Marsh at that time.
So either the SAIT had their own recording of this A2G traffic to refer to so they could print what they did and put “QUOTE MARKS” around it to indicate it was totally FACTUAL… or what we are reading in the SAIR is just a totally reworked version of what Burfiend actually told them… complete with ’embellishments’.
In other words… regardless of how many “QUOTE MARKS” they were adding to make it look REAL and ACCURATE… it was actually just good FICTION writing and NOT actual straight reporting of what Burfiend says he heard.
Directly from the US Forest Service
Aerially-applied fire retardant and other fire chemicals reduces wildfire intensity and rate of spread, decreasing risks to firefighters, enabling them to construct fireline safely. In many situations, the use of retardant in concert with firefighters on the ground allows the Forest Service to safely meet its responsibilities to protect landscapes, resources, and people.
This is the exact scenario I have been describing as what could have been in the planning stages at YHF. We know Ball/Hernandez were scouting for a place to build line. We hear Abel telling his DivA air support (retardant?) ASAP, and it appears that GM were moving to a location that would make them available to help IF the fire slowed secondary to wind change or retardant application.
The retardant dose no good if fire fighters are not right there to build line
Strong wind reduces the ability to hit the fire and turns the retardant into a mist les capable of holding its moisture. Again by the time we are talking about this they would have had to do a frontal attack with spot fires
The crew had at least another hour to get to Glen Alia. from where thy were just to late to do any thing coming from the top of the mountain.
Sure had the winds not been blowing, the fire not run into town or the fire had laid down allowing hand crews to reengage then it might have worked. But non of those things happened. Every body was sitting at the restraint or headed there before the crew was half way off the mountain. But I am still Listening.
I think this boils down to another training issue. Assuming as a factual matter that GM really was thinking that it was going to rely retardant to provide a meaningful margin of safety, given fire behavior. Possible? I sure hope not. The material excerpted by Calvin has an important qualifier, “in many situations.”
Any one with any time on the fire line will tell you what I just said above.
I was a AIR Attack Boss we were trained and I witnessed first hand in the air and on the ground what the capability of retardant is. Dropped 100 to 150 feet above the terrain in a full 1000 or 2000 cal. dump at dump speed with no wind will give good coverage
and knock the fire down. Precision drops are usually about 30 to 40% accurate the rest are off the mark and can hit behind or to far in front the higher faster and with wind and less Gal. the more the retardant starts to mist out so the thinner the coverage with high temps and hot flames retardant dry’s once dry it will not stop a flaming front also in heavy fuel the retardant dose not reach a lot of fine fuels under the canopy and they will continue to burn thru the drop area.
So with good drops along a burning edge you need hand crews right there to build line while the fire is no burning so hot
to long and it will burn thru the retardant and move on.
With heave smoke you are guessing that you will hit where the fire is and be affective.
Also one thing to note that was stated above Air attack was staying 2 to 3 drops ahead of the lead plane so the lead plane when Marsh supposedly called was dropping on areas that he was behind on compared to AA. The AA could have said to the air tanker That’s exactly where we want it when he dipped his wing to show the next drop location.
It is more likely at 1630 on that AA was directing drops on Glen Alia and trying to save homes. The air craft were making runs from the ridge top to the west down thru town and out to the east. It makes no science that Marsh on the south side of the fire would be making statements on those drops.
I guess that’s where I am stuck at. Cant prove it cant disprove it.
In my day no crew in their right mind ever relied on retardant drops for there safety. It was and still is a crap shoot.
Mr Powers… as far as any ‘new’ discussion about this supposed “That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant” transmission from Marsh at 1637…
…I still maintain that IAOI ( If And Only If ) that really was Marsh… his WE did NOT mean “He and Granite Mountain”.
I believe when he says WE there… what he really meant was ‘WE… fire command’.
I believe Marsh still had his DIVSA hat firmly on his head and only thought he was helping to direct drops for the ‘general’ fire situation and his ‘encouragement’ to Bravo 33 had nothing to do with Granite Mountain.
Marsh was still just trying to ‘do his job’ and be the best DIVSA he could be… even at 1637.
Its hard for me to accept that Marsh would have been calling B33 about drops in Yarnell at the exact moments when GM wold be pulling on the cords of their saws to cut out a DZ..
The fact that the hotshots calling air attack are pissed as they try to raise him seems to be subtly important. Why would they be angry at air attack? It doesn’t seem appropriate given B33 was the best option for getting help. And the response coming from B33 is equally inappropriate. Kind of like “I now what is going on, but everyone on the radio doesn’t need to hear this…. SHUT UP”
WTKTT- That makes no since in the scheme of things when others are requesting Air retardant and some one not there and clear across the fire because he is a DIVS is commenting on the drops.
Again we are stretching Marsh’s own authority to think he is involved in the drops to save structures he can not see. I am sure he could see the air craft because of there height but what they were dropping on is another thing.
Fire command still has a protocol Marsh gest did not assign himself to be involved in the whole fire I still do not think that was his statement.
Reply to calvin post on
September 12, 2014 at 2:23 am
>> calvin said…
>>
>> Its hard for me to accept that Marsh
>> would have been calling B33 about
>> drops in Yarnell at the exact moments
>> when GM wold be pulling on the cords
>> of their saws to cut out a DZ..
I hear ya… but it is equally hard for me to accept that Eric Marsh might have been attempting to arrange a retardant drop for Granite Mountain at that moment WITHOUT there being some other additional radio traffic to make sure it was going to happen.
It it was really a request for an EMERGENCY drop… then how could Marsh’s reported comment have just sounded like a usual ‘Atta Boy!… that’s where we want the stuff!” unsolicited comment over A2G following a good drop?
I am not saying I am CONVINCED of anything regarding this radio call.
I am only saying that IAOI it was Marsh… then my own ‘feeling’ was that he simply had his DIVSA hat on and he thought he was just being ‘helpful’ as DIVSA with the general fire situation at that time.
But I totally understand what you are saying.
It COULD have been about GM’s situation.
>> Reply to Bob Powers post on
>> September 12, 2014 at 7:48 am
>>
>> Bob Powers said…
>>
>> WTKTT- That makes no since in the
>> scheme of things when others are
>> requesting Air retardant and some
>> one not there and clear across the fire
>> because he is a DIVS is commenting
>> on the drops.
I am not sure who these ‘others’ are that you are referring to when you say “others are requesting Air retardant”.
From about 1600 ( 4:00 PM ) on… ‘Air Attack’ was specifically told to ‘drop at will’… and we don’t really have any evidence other than this supposed 1637 call from Marsh that anyone on the ground was ALSO specifically requesting drops at specific places there on the SOUTH side of the fire.
The one exception is what we hear at the start of the Helmet-Cam video ( at 1639 ).
That is OBVIOUSLY John Burfiend explaining to someone on A2G that they will TRY to accomplish what someone just requested but that it will be “tough on them” because of “that valley and all the smoke”.
The SAIR states unequivocally that that was OPS1 Abel talking to ‘Air Attack’ on A2G at that moment. Problem there is that Todd Abel NEVER mentions ANYTHING about this in his extensive ADOSH interview.
It still might have Burfiend still finishing a discussion with DIVSA Marsh about where to do a drop.
Also… with regards to Marsh’s LOCATION at 1637 – 1639…
It doesn’t really matter WHERE he was.
He was (supposedly) calling up to “Air Attack” and (supposedly) using the call sign DIVSA… and Rory Collins had specifically TOLD French and Burfiend that is WHO their ‘contact’ was supposed to be on the SOUTH side of the fire.
They were basically already TOLD that if DIVSA calls… you do what he asks. He is your CONTACT ‘down there’.
Here is exactly what Collins told French and Burfiend right before he was about to leave the fire and hand over “Air Attack” duties to them…
NOTE: This is part of the exact transcript from the 40 minute and 14 second long Air-To-Air channel video 20130630_1628_EP which actually begins at 1547.46 ( 3:47.46 PM )…
____________________________________
+2:38 ( 1550.24 / 3:50.24 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Bravo three three… Air Attack.
+2:40 ( 1550.26 / 3:50.26 PM )
(B33 – French): Go ahead Air Attack.
+2:41 ( 1550.27 / 3:50.27 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Okay… if ya haven’t noticed they got a heck of a wind shift here… ah… we’ve got a lot of fire headed over towards… ah… Yarnell. Ya wanna swing around and take a look at that we’re gonna have to check somethin’ there… either… shortly… I think. And also… uh… nine one one, I believe, is off… uh… about 20 minutes out.
+2:58 ( 1550.44 / 3:50.44 PM )
(B33 – French): Copy… we’re headed that way.
+3:00 ( 1550.46 / 3:50.46 PM )
(AA – Rory Collins): Ground contact out there… ahhhh… I was talkin’ to… Alpha
+3:05 ( 1550.51 / 3:50.51 PM )
(B33 – French): (Copy) Ground contact Alpha.
____________________________________
Regarding “calculated risk”
Thanks to both WTKTT and Bob Powers. I think we’re getting closer to being on the same page.
I haven’t quite woken up yet and I’m out of kitty food so I’m just gonna do a mini-post. I have more in my pocket that I will post after I mitigate the above situation.
When I posted about “calculated risk,” I wasn’t being the originator of the message. I was being the messenger of it. I had read it over and over again in posts on wildlandfire.com. I think it’s a fuzzy term. And that’s part of the problem.
Coincidentally, as I was continuing to research the winding rocky road called “fatality investigations” yesterday, I came across something really interesting. I’ll post more after I wake up and go get kitty food.
The term that needs to used is “Risk Management.” It’s not a fly-by. It’s institutionalized. By NIOSH, National Institutes of Occupational Safety and Health, which is a part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.
NIOSH is the agency which conducts investigations of Structural Fire Fatalities. How a fire-fighting organization handles “Risk Management” is a big part of what NIOSH investigates when they look at accidents on the risky workplace floor called “fire-fighting.”
It’s assumed that fighting a fire is not the same occupation as doing what OSHA/XDOSH typically investigates. That’s why OSHA/XDOSH is not really the appropriate agency to investigate fire fatalities.
NIOSH investigations are considered gold standard by structural fire-fighters.
They have been recently investigating more and more fatalities of fire-fighters in the urban-wildland interface.
They offered to investigate the Yarnell Fire. They were turned down.
I really believe that, if they had done an investigation of Yarnell, we wouldn’t be in this mess.
Turned down by WHO?
Good question. I haven’t had time to find out yet.
I did a bit of searching, but I couldn’t find anything about the turn-down. It does, however, look like NIOSH is getting more and more involved in the wildland-urban interface fire-fighting scene.
From the CDC website>NIOSH>Workplace Safety & Health Topics
“Fighting Wildfires”
http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/topics/firefighting/
“Every year, hundreds of thousands of acres of land burn across the United States and wildland fire fighters (WFFs) are asked to protect our lives, our homes and our forests. But fires are unpredictable and dangerous. Between 2000-2013, almost 300-duty WFF fatalities occurred.”
SNIP
“NIOSH offers resources for fire departments, fire fighters, and partner organizations to prevent on-duty injuries, illnesses and deaths from hazards and exposures associated with fighting wildfires.”
This page goes on to list a number of reports related to wildland-urban interface resources they are producing.
Including:
“New NIOSH Partnership with U.S. Forest Service –Missoula Technology and Development Center
Recently, NIOSH and the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA), U.S. Forest Service (USFS) Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC) signed a new partnership agreement to advance worker safety and health among wildland fire fighters. NIOSH and USFS/MTDC will have the unique opportunity to coordinate and collaborate safety and health research among wildland fire fighters.”
And the 2013 National Wildfire Coordinating Group 2013 Annual Report lists that the Risk Management Committee (RMC):
“The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) has asked the RMC to help them set goals for their Wildland Fire Health and Safety Program.”
http://www.nwcg.gov/nwcg_admin/annual_reports/annrep2013.pdf
I would give my right leg for NIOSH to lead a re-investigation of the Yarnell Hill Fire. Not that I think that will happen but……….
I’ve been sitting here for the past couple of hours thinking about all the other crappolla near-misses that happened on this fire. And the Lessons Learned that need to be learned from them.
INCLUDING the dozer and its operator. What happened to him/it as Glen Ilah was burning over. What happened to him/it when that power-line came down entangling him/it. I’ve watched Lessons Learned videos of stuff happening with dozers and their operators. This one really needs to be looked at.
INCLUDING what happened at the Youth Camp. There are approximately five or so different narratives about it, and, thus, I can’t make any sense at all about what actually happened, but it seems as if it was fairly life-threatening.
At this point it seems to me that Gary Cordes issued an order at about 3:50 for them to all start evacuating, but, apparently, that didn’t happen.
The person in charge of that whole apparent fiasco was a Task Force Supervisor Trainee who wasn’t functioning under the supervision of the person he was originally assigned to because of “lack of resources.” Is this Standard Operating Procedure???
And that person was sure, according to his ADOSH interview, that the Granite Mountain buggies were at the Boulder Springs Ranch that morning. Hello???
INCLUDING the decision that a tennis court at the Double A Bar Ranch was a “Safety Zone” for the crews of several Engine Crews and their overhead and an entire 20-person Inmate Crew. I don’t know if that tennis court was adequate to serve as a “Safety Zone.
All I know is that, in the State of Arizona, if that “Safety Zone” had had to be implemented, and anybody died, the Inmate Crew would have been ineligible for ANY kind of death benefits. (ala the Dude Fire).
And I’ve become less Bitchy regarding Darrell Wills over time, but I really still wonder what was the point of spending all that time and resources, all things considered, defending the Double A Bar Ranch??????
And I REALLY want to know how it came to be that, on the afternoon of June 29, when the Incident Commander lost control of the fire, given the fuels loading and the predictable dangerous weather and the “indefensible” “values at risk” (including the people who lived in them) and the prior explosive behavior of the Doce Fire…..
How did a Short Type 2 Team ended up being ordered? This caused this fire to be dangerously short-staffed in so many ways, leading to the Type 2 Incident Commander spending most of his time calling up additional resources instead of actually fighting the fire he was supposed to be actually fighting.
Including shifting a dispatched Division Supervisor, who would have been independent of his crews, to being an overly-stretched Operations Chief, which then required making a crew supervisor (personally attached to a crew) that Division Supervisor, leading to all that happened in all that chaos that resulted in the loss of the Granite Mountain IHC.
And, yes, a bunch of stuff I have read hints that having a Div Supervisor attached to a crew can be a dangerous thing.
Not to mention the fact that an entire IHC didn’t show up and was never even replaced. And thus a Division Supervisor who was dispatched showed up without any resources assigned to him. And we’re gonna build a hand-line across all of that???
Somebody definitely needs to really truly friggin INVESTIGATE THIS ENTIRE FIRE.
And I have to say, unfortunately, I don’t know how we get somebody to do that.
Something tells me that even if NIOSH decided to launch a brand new investigation tomorrow… that the USDA Forestry Department would still put up every roadblock they possibly could to prevent them from talking to ANYONE they have ANY control over ( like Blue Ridge and anyone working for BLM ).
The ‘fire gods’ at US Forestry do not WANT the full ‘truth’ about what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 to come out. They NEVER have. They have ALWAYS just wanted people to forget all about this and just ‘move on’.
“Nothing to see here. We will take care of it all.
These aren’t the droids you’re looking for.
Move along… move along.”
I still want the US Forestry Department ‘fire gods’ to be forced to at least say WHY they felt they were entitled to make such ridiculous HEAVY redactions to documents that were in their possession and subject to legal FOIA / FOIL requests.
All that was ever said about the Blue Ridge written statements that were finally ( and reluctantly ) delivered to ADOSH was that redactions were made using the ‘sensitive information’ exemption claim… like they were the freakin’ NSA or the CIA or something.
‘Sensitive’ to WHO?… and WHY?
‘Sensitive’ because those blacked-out sections simply contained important clues about what REALLY happened that day?
OK. Here goes. When I started this, I hadn’t read what WTKTT and Bob Powers had written below. So I just got back from my little trip to get cat foot. Through the street-reconstruction zone where the City of Burque is tearing up and replacing the sidewalks and driveways of about five acres of my neighborhood. That project has been on my mind as I/we have been discussing risk and occupational hazards. I’ve even had an orange water tender parked directly across the street from my house for the past five weeks. At least now I know what it’s called!
So, I discovered this NIOSH thing here:
“From Investigation to Action: The history of NIOSH’s Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, and how the fire service can better apply lessons learned from this vital program” in “FireFighterNation”
http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighter-safety-and-health/investigation-action
“If the cliché version of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results, some could argue that many in the U.S. fire service should be running an asylum.
“It has been 15 years since the National Institute for Occupational Health and Safety (NIOSH) began its Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program (FFFIPP). Those familiar with the program are generally pleased with the investigations, which conclude with recommendations on how to prevent similar incidents in the future.:”
SNIP
“Interestingly, the first fire service fatality investigation by NIOSH was actually done in 1984 under its Fatality Assessment and Control Evaluation (FACE) Program. Ten incidents involving firefighters, beginning in 1984, were investigated prior to the start of the FFFIPP.
Later, the IAFF played a big role in lobbying to investigate firefighter fatalities. In 1994, IAFF General President Al Whitehead called for the investigations at the group’s convention in Detroit. Whitehead said he was too often asked at firefighter funerals if he could find out, “How did it happen?” or “What went wrong?” According to press reports at the time, he feared that locally controlled investigations would not be thorough enough or could lead to whitewashing of the incident to protect people.”
SNIP
“Phoenix Fire Chief (ret.) Alan Brunacini wrote the book Fire Command nearly 30 years ago and is perhaps the leading expert in fire service risk management. He believes the FFFIPP has done exemplary work in calling out causative factors in so many fireground deaths. If not enough good has come of NIOSH’s work, the fault lies solely with the fire service, Brunacini says: “That end of the system is fine. But they have no direct control over the leadership of the fire service. It’s an inside deal (in the fire service) that must be fixed at the strategic level of management.””
“The FFFIPP would like to get more involved in wildfire fatality investigations, which are now usually handled by state wildfire groups, the Bureau of Land Management (BLM) or the National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG). Assistance was offered, but declined, for the Yarnell Hill Fire that resulted in the deaths of 19 firefighters in Arizona in June. The Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation Report has been criticized by some as being too benign, unwilling to hold any organization or person accountable. Additionally, the FFFIPP will also not investigate aircraft accidents, which are usually associated with wildland fires, as they are investigated by the National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB).”
SNIP
“The FFFIPP has a staff of eight investigators, four of whom have fire service backgrounds. Most are headquartered out of Morgantown, W.Va., while the medical investigative staff is located in Cincinnati. NIOSH estimates that it has investigated approximately 40% of firefighter deaths since the program’s inception. Program objectives are clear:
• Better identify and define the characteristics of LODDs among firefighters
• Recommend ways to prevent death and injuries
• Disseminate prevention strategies to the fire service”
(I have to do this quickly because I’m about to get picked up by my daughter to go out for lunch. So I apologize in advance for any typos etc)
From the above article I then found this one:
“”Risk Management & NIOSH Reports: NIOSH reports provide much-needed guidance on risk management principles”
http://www.firefighternation.com/article/firefighter-safety/risk-management-niosh-reports
“There are few educational materials available to the fire service that are as comprehensive, illustrative and informative as the line-of-duty (LODD) death reports issued by the National Institutes of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH). Through its Fire Fighter Fatality Investigation and Prevention Program, NIOSH studies and provides insight into catastrophic events that have resulted in the death of one or more firefighters, and does so in a dispassionate, objective and matter-of-fact way.”
SNIP
“Reports & Risk Management Principles
NIOSH is part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, which is tasked with (among other things) protecting the health and well-being of firefighters and other professionals who face occupational risks on a daily basis. One key identifying characteristic of all NIOSH reports: The NIOSH investigators, regardless of the type of incident, put much of their comprehensive analysis into the context of risk management principles. They do not so much look to assess blame as to explain what happened, why it happened and what firefighters need to know so that the likelihood of a similar event happening again is minimized.
There is and has been a lot of talk in the fire service about risk management principles over the years, but few documents have compiled these principles and articulated their importance in as practical and useful a fashion as NIOSH’s studies on LODDs. Indeed, a review of various NIOSH studies reveals that the agency usually attributes much of the trouble on a fireground to a failure to understand, implement and appreciate critical risk management considerations in various aspects or stages of a fire operation.
A Report That Stands Out
As is customary, in one recent study, “Career Fire Fighter Dies in Church Fire Following Roof Collapse—Indiana,” Jan. 18, 2012 (link removed so I don’t get stuck in moderation) NIOSH provided a factual recitation of the characteristics of the department involved, including its leadership structure, the circumstances involved in the incident and the events leading up to the loss of a member of the fire service. They then put together an analysis with recommendations for practical application by all fire departments.
This study, however, was a bit different from the standard studies in that it spoke very specifically about the need to adhere to established risk management principles in the fire service. Further, it implored the fire service to utilize these risk management principles all the time. Although NIOSH LODD studies are essentially risk management documents in purpose and design, this report came right out and spoke about risk management as a skill that needed to be exercised in training and utilized on the fireground.
The principle behind all NIOSH reports can be summarized in the language of this one particular report, as it goes to the heart of the notion that not all fireground risks should be accepted without some degree of evaluation. Here are a few quotes from that report:
“Risk management principles established by the fire service are based on the philosophy that greater risks will be assumed when there are lives to be saved …”
“[T]he level of acceptable risk to firefighters is much lower (when compared against that when a life is at risk) when only property is at stake …”
“[M]ore caution should be exercised in abandoned, vacant and unoccupied structures and in situations where there is no clear evidence indicating that people are trapped inside a structure and (importantly, it should be emphasized) can be saved.””
SNIP
“Time for a New Approach
All in all, the most important element of NIOSH’s concentration on risk management principles is the saving of firefighter lives; however, aside from the legal, social and economic costs of poor risk management, the fact is that we risk the lives of members when we don’t adhere to these principles and other lessons provided in NIOSH investigative reports. Unfortunately, the reality of the fire service is that we are willing to take unreasonable risks; indeed, the public has come to expect it. NIOSH reports, however, illustrate to us, case by case, that we need to rethink our approach so that we more appropriately value the worth of our service members and provide for a more reasonable assessment of risks on the fireground.”
The report the above article refers to can be found here:
“Death in the line of duty…A summary of a NIOSH fire fighter fatality investigation: Career Fire Fighter Dies in Church Fire Following Roof Collapse- Indiana”
dc.gov./niosh/fire/reports/face201114.html
It was really eye-opening for me to read this report.
OK, gotta go!
Oops didn’t get the link right
It’s here
http://www.cdc.gov./niosh/fire/reports/face201114.html
Reply to Bob Powers post September 9, 2014 at 12:46 pm
NOTE: This is a reply to a final comment Mr. Powers made over in Chapter 8 and
that Chapter now seems to be ‘closed’ to further comment… so I am replying to
Mr. Powers here on this new Chapter 9.
>> Mr. Powers said…
>>
>> You Have told me you worked in an industry that had
>> a lot of risks as well but I bet there were a lot of safety
>> rules that went with your job to help you go home safely
>> and get to a safe and enjoyable retirement.
My turn to say “You probably have no idea”.
We are talking about an industry that is DIRECTLY answerable to BOTH Federal and State level Occupational Safety and Hazard agencies and has been for DECADES.
In all your time working fires… did you ever have an actual OSHA person just SHOW UP unannounced for an ‘inspection’ who also has the authority to ‘shut you down’ right away if he/she doesn’t like something he/she is seeing?
EVERYTHING has to be tickety-boo… EVERY HOUR of EVERY DAY.
No excuses.
>> Mr. Powers also said
>>
>> What would you say to people telling you that your rules
>> were just guide lines and you could take calculated risks to
>> accomplish the job.
Me, personally?
Well.. it would depend WHO was saying it to me.
If it was someone who didn’t understand the construction business… I wouldn’t say anything at all because it was coming from someone who didn’t understand the construction business and didn’t know that what they were suggesting was absurd. The RULES are NEVER just GUIDELINES that you can choose to ignore. They are RULES. ( See above about being DIRECTLY answerable to OSHA… at any moment… any day… any time ).
If it was someone I was working WITH… I would first tell him/her he/she is full of shit and if he/she continued to ‘freelance’ I would report him/her to the contractor and tell the contractor I don’t ever want to be anywhere NEAR that person ever again.
If it was someone who worked FOR me… I would just say…
“You’re fired”.
>> Mr. Powers also said…
>>
>> Its a long way down from the top of a building. because
>> someone didn’t think they needed a safety harness.
I never personally witnessed a ‘fatal accident’ even though it was
a possibility ALL day… EVERY day.
I actually credit me not having to ever see that to OSHA itself.
Their constant ‘spot inspections’ and watchful eyes established the atmosphere of ‘safety first’ into EVERYONE’S minds and work habits from contractors to supervisors to crewmembers.
And now wild land fire, the Fed’s who never answer to OSHA until there is a accident.
How ever all of the PPI equip is required by OSHA and to be worn properly while fighting fire.
Yet we are still discussing the lack of supervisors meeting the strict safety equipment guidelines. Hard Hats, FR Shirts, Gloves and FR Pants are issued and replaced by the Federal agencies.—– Is there something wrong here?
Yes I read the page and also believe it is Elizabeth’s ID all over it.
At least I am who I am and Again I know RTS but let me make it clear he worked for me 1 year on my HS crew. He remembered me and contacted me from this IM blog. So though I may have influenced his young carrier he put the rest of it together himself and did very well.
Bob, one thing when we had a visit with Ted Putnam is that he noticed a Montana unit of firefighters helitac unit truck in one of the new photos Joy fished out a local person that had lost her home in the Yarnell fire. It was interesting that Ted said it was the first he knew of that and did not see that truck or hear of it in any of the investigative reports and considering his expertise I thought the photo ought to be put out there. I don’t know the significance of that truck but it is also time stamped and shows its location. This might be a photo of significance so email us and we will send the photo.
There is a comment posted at the Phoenix NT site with a link to a WordPress blog – “yarnellhillfireblog”. The comment alleges that most of us here are a creation of RTS, that we were created to agree with him and validate his opinions. I suspect that is absurd, and in my case I know it is. Moreover, on the issue in question – were the GMHS a crew with a history of “bad practices with good outcomes” – I have been and still remain at least agnostic. I have so indicated that before. I do believe that the GM overhead made mistakes that day. I think it is very difficult to defend the idea that they definitely had enough time to reach the BSR in that environment. It is even more difficult to defend the idea that when the fire accelerated, they were not in a position to be aware of it or do anything about it. But I have always thought it was more of a “one-off” error and not something they did over and over.
Mike,
For starters, I also visited the “yarnellhillfireblog” and I am TOTALLY convinced that it is the creation and workings of Elizabeth. I am RTS and only RTS. I particularly enjoyed the alleged RTS ‘creations’ discussion’ (or whatever word she used). I also liked the alleged spelling and grammatical errors absurdity.
Notwithstanding the inanity of it all, she correctly pointed out that I was the one that initially brought the “bad decisions with prior good outcomes” assertion and conclusion to the floor. I had then and still have now, no problem with that statement.
I based that assertion and conclusion on factual experiences with Marsh and the GMHS over the years, as well as anecdotes from Southwestern and other Regions WFF and supervisors’ anecdotes about their individual and collective experiences on various fires over the years in various fire regions.
I know you say you remain “agnostic” on this issue. That’s how you feel. However, those of us that knew Marsh and worked with him, knew him as a ‘bad decisions with prior good outcomes’ supervisor, in spite of what anyone else says; even though Elizabeth allegedly claims otherwise based on her other ANONYMOUS WFF anecdotes. A bit of hypocrisy there, ya think?
One of the SWA Hot Shot Crew Superintendents in 2013, publicly stated to his peers: “THIS WAS THE FINAL, FATAL LINK IN A LONG CHAIN OF BAD DECISIONS WITH GOOD OUTCOMES; WE SAW THIS COMING FOR YEARS.” At least seven (7) OTHER Superintendents and HS Crew supervisors immediately agreed with him.
And as far as the family, friends, and loved ones disagreeing with this – that’s fine – because it’s hard to make heroes out of someone who messed up. No matter how hard you want to believe otherwise.
RTS,
Before I read your post, I was also going to comment that the yarnellhillfireblog has Elizabeth written all over it.
It certainly appears that by inserting it into the New Times comments, she’s trying to drum-up some buzz for the blog, which appears to have been languishing for a while.
There are some factual errors in some of ‘her’ blog posts, to include assertions made with some of the pictures, but since I opted-out of any discussion with her a long time ago after she repeatedly, publicly stated that WTKTT and I were the same person, I’m not going to waste my breath.
And speaking of breath, I have been holding mine for quite some time now waiting for the apology that Elizabeth said was coming for her making the above accusation, but I’m afraid I’m going to have to exhale now, without further wait for something I always knew would never come.
Funny, I checked that blog. Among other things, unless RTS is retired, which I don’t think he is, I think one of her anonymous sources has the wrong Robert with the drama-queen stuff. Funny thing about first names, and the southwest which is a big region. Not that relevant to anything anyway, but stands to reason that blog’s anonymous sourcing might not be that rigorous.
Oh and to clarify any possible confusion, I just realize Bob Powers is retired, but I was thinking of another retired individual, though I guess Bob’s formal first name may also be Robert, too..
Right you are but RTS is retired and works on fires as a pick up overhead position during fire season as do I. As I said earlier the Fed’s are short qualified overhead in several functions on teams and gone back and recruited retired Fire Fighters to fill some positions. Their are less and less qualified people to fill these position and in a few years this may become critical. There is a new lack of involvement by non fire employees that never use to exist in my era.
Mike,
They made that one-off error several times in just one day. Just like anything else in terms of practices, yes, it’s possible to make mistakes, but a pattern of mistakes tends to not burst out of nowhere, and tends to be hard to break as well. Because bird season is rolling around, I’m reminded of the fact that people who don’t have the best gun and hunting safety practices tend to stay that way, unless they 1) recognize the problem, and 2) commit to building new habits in a mindful way. Problem is, unless someone starts losing hunting partners, they generally don’t admit there’s a problem on their own. Mindfulness is a key issue in making safe environments, and a habit, and as well as a systemic point here because there were never any penalties organizationally for lack of mindfulness in this case.
Reply to SR post on September 9, 2014 at 11:36 am
>> SR said…
>>
>> They made that one-off error several times in just one day.
>> Just like anything else in terms of practices, yes, it’s possible
>> to make mistakes, but a pattern of mistakes tends to not burst
>> out of nowhere, and tends to be hard to break as well.
SR… your post rang bells with me and I have posted about this before but I wanted to just ‘echo’ what you are saying with the same ‘story’ I have told before.
When I used to work construction… there were ALWAYS ‘new crews’ and ‘new contractors’ that had obtained their licenses and now they were trying to WORK on job sites.
Like just about all professions ( including WFF ) where ‘independently owned and operated’ self-contained UNITS are vying for ‘contracts’ and WORK… you have to ‘make a name for yourself’ or ‘get your foot in the door’ or whatever cliche’ you want to call it. You think you have to ‘prove yourself’.
So sure enough… more often than not… these ‘new crews’ would be being instructed by their own contractors to ‘push themselves’ and ‘prove themselves’.
We all knew it. EVERYBODY knew it. It was just the “Oh God… here comes another one” thing.
So we would all KEEP OUR EYES ON THEM… not so much to even ‘watch them prove themselves’… but to keep them from HURTING themselves or US.
I remember, however, that on many occasions… the situation would arise where a ‘new’ crew was no longer a ‘new’ crew and they had ‘established themselves’ in an area and they DID achieve the outset goal of ‘getting WORK consistently’…
…but because of the HABIT of ‘pushing themselves’ and feeling like they had to ‘prove themselves’… these crews would ALWAYS find it ‘hard to stop doing that’.
Their efforts to ‘prove themselves’ just to be sure and get that ‘foot in the door’ and get consistent contracts simply had a tendency to become their DEFAULT way of approaching the work.
Many times… the rest of us ( the contractors that had to work with them ) would have to take them aside and TELL them… “Look… you are IN. You have made it. Stop with the risky shit or we will have to refuse to keep working with you.”
Usually… that did the trick.
Only ONE time I can remember… when a crew that was WARNED like this to ‘settle down’ and stop with the ‘proving yourself’ shit but they seemed UNABLE to drop their bad / unsafe work habits… did we all ( the other contractors that would have to continually work with this crew ) have to go to the ‘higher ups’ in the area and tell THEM to come down on these guys and get them to ‘fly right… work safe’ or we would all officially BOYCOTT any project they were assigned to.
That worked, too. That crew that seemed UNABLE to drop their bad habits got a brand new set of Supervisors and everything then fell into place. They were talented… hard working… safety conscious… and a pleasure to work with.
This was just the ‘construction’ business… but I think you see what I am getting at with regards to Granite Mountain.
When you are pushing and pushing because you think you have to ‘prove yourself’… it can become your DEFAULT ‘way of working’.
If the people who WORK with you then don’t say anything or they DO and they see that you aren’t ‘getting it’… it’s time to go ‘higher up’ and fix the problem.
It really sounds like THAT may have been what didn’t ( but should have ) happened with Granite Mountain.
They went into ‘Ranger Danger’ mode to get that Type 1 IHC status… doing things that other crews would refuse to do and whatnot… but then FORGOT how to go back to just being a normal… SAFE crew.
>> SR also wrote…
>>
>> Mindfulness is a key issue in making safe environments, and a habit,
>> and as well as a systemic point here because there were never any
>> penalties organizationally for lack of mindfulness in this case.
Yes. See above. Keyword = HABIT
As for ‘penalties’… also ‘see above’. In my own sideways example to ANOTHER industry where it is also critical to always ‘follow the rules’ or people are going to get HURT… the SOLUTION was to talk about it in an open manner but if the parties involved were too hard-headed to respond… then you go over their heads and let the powers that be know that people are ready to start REFUSING TO WORK WITH THEM if something doesn’t change.
In the case of WFF… it seems that is where the ‘systemic failure’ lies.
Too many of these guys ( and their SUPS ) seem to be so afraid of losing their own jobs or too into this ‘brotherhood’ stuff to do what would NORMALLY be done in other (similar) occupations when this kind of stuff starts to happen.
You could be right with newer created HS crews. The one’s who have been around a long time tend to go do their jobs as they already have the recognized name and respect. They don’t have to prove them self’s unless they get a bad rap. GM was in my view up against the wall with the City Council. They could be dropped by them or the Fed’s based on cost and Full time positions to meet certification as was evident in Ashcroft’s position that was not funded and covered by benefits.
The proof that there WAS this CONSTANT pressure coming from Willis to Marsh is all just out in plain view in those Performance Reviews in Marsh’s personnel file ( and in PUBLIC other statements Willis has made ).
Just 57 days before the tragedy… Willis tells Marsh he now wants to be involved in ‘all decision making’ to ‘lend his expertise’ in order to ensure ‘excellence at ALL times’.
Just being ‘good’ ( and always SAFE? ) wasn’t ‘good enough’ for Darrell Willis.
Not by a long shot.
“RISK a LOT… SAVE a lot… get with that or get gone.”
LOL!!!!
I just came here after a day of feeling frustrated and depressed about how I’m currently mostly disagreeing with EVERYBODY right now! At least about 3/4 of most if what we’ve been recently discussing (including JD’s article).
And it’s NOT because I’m a puppet of RTS!!!
Actually I think it’s because I’m a red-head, so it must be genetically pre-determined.
Or maybe it’s because I’m overly conscious of all the risky behavior that I’ve taken during MY life that turned out fine. (Except that time I tripped over a flood-bar on a trail in the Grand Canyon while carrying a pack that was too heavy because I packed it in too much of a hurry) and wound up breaking four toes that I had to hike out on……and was laid up for six months because of…..
Or maybe it’s because my daughter just drove back (ALONE) to Albuquerque from Ann Arbor, and I was climbing the walls seeing all the photos she was posting on Facebook of all the rain she was driving through. I was keeping my candles lit while she was busy doing what I consider to be taking “excessive risks,” so our angels would give her a “positive outcome.”
And thinking about that (my daughter used to be a competitive figure-skater who wound up in the hospital twice) while trying in vain to figure out how to respond to Bob Powers and WTKTT regarding “Calculated Risk”-taking, in a manner that suggested that they would NEVER EVER do it. And I’m thinking, come on you guys……..give me a friggin break…….
I’m so glad we’re all clones of RTS here. That makes my job so much easier!
Oh and then there’s that time I was thrown from a horse into a redwood tree and came (probability-speakingly) close to breaking my back while on an accredited Outward Bound Program out of Prescott College. Did I quite jumping horses? Heck no!!!
I’m so glad I’m a RTS clone.
I have to add, though, that when I was leading other people into the Grand Canyon, my safety rules tightened up A LOT.
But even then, leading other people into the Grand Canyon was still, itself, a “calculated risk.”
And I also totally appreciate everything RTS posts here.
I’m totally capable of forming my own opinions. Including about who is who.
As to what RTS is saying.
I have no way to verify it, in my mind. I have not come across anything else “out there” that verifies it. Or un-verfies it, for that matter.
My evaluation of RTS comes mainly via the fact that I know who Bob Powers is. And I respect Bob Powers, even though I don’t always agree with him. I don’t agree all the time with most people I still respect.
And, so, I take what RTS says seriously, but I still can’t verify it.
***********
AND I WANT TO ADD that THE most VALUABLE “take-away” “Lessons Learned” lesson I have gained in this whole nine-month-long conversation I’ve been engaged in here came way back when, when Bob Powers described how he “instituted” the role of a designated “WHAT IF?” person and how RTS learned that from him and carried it forward.
I think that is truly seriously majorly IMPORTANT..
From what I have read, I find a great deal of conflict “out there” about SPEAKING UP.
It’s been “instituted” as a Policy, but I don’t think it’s really, actually, IN PLAY. Especially when things are going south, and less-experienced crew-members may FEEL that hair raising on the back of their necks, but may not trust that feeling or know how to articulate it.
In our culture, we are not supported in VALUING our instincts/intuitions, much less TRAINED in how to utilize them. But there’s a REASON we have them, and it’s rooted in evolution, i.e. SURVIVAL.
But, from what I’ve read, and also experienced, there are all kinds of forces at play, in general and in hotshot crews, that squash the expression of disagreement (based on those intuitions) with what may appear to someone to be the “general consensus.”
The idea of “institutionalizing,” or something, a “WHAT IF?” person on any given team, including a hotshot crew, I think, would begin to break down that culture of going along with the “general consensus.”
Whether or not RTS is reliable in his description of excessive risk-taking on the part of the Granite Mountain IHC, I really do think this idea of a “WHAT IF?” person is worthy of “pushing” forward.
And, I mean that really, really SERIOUSLY.
REGARDING WTKTT’s POST REGARDING WHAT WAS GOING ON INSIDE ERIC’S HEAD
But I have to add, since we’re in another chapter and it doesn’t help to reply to a comment in the earlier one.
I think, WTKTT, what you were hypothesizing about Eric having in his head the idea/frame that he was responsible for directing, at least partially (all things considered), the retardant drops in that area, since DIV Z was, essentially non-existent, is a valid hypothesis that may be seriously relevant.
Especially given the fact that Rory Collins did tell Tom French that DIV A was the ground contact (I think it may be a little more complicated but…)
At least as relevant as all the other hypotheses we have, for various reasons, put forth about various things.
And I agree with you regarding the frustration over how so many of these paths of inquiry keep leading back to Brendan.
Which is what I think is a strength of JD’s article, in spite of some of my other disagreements with it.
I have to admit, though, I’m no longer as certain as I used to be that Brendan knows “the answers.”
This just goes to show I can fairly seriously disagree with 3/4 of peoples posts while also intensively agreeing with 1/4 of their posts, and, thus thinking, it’s truly worth continuing my participation in this whole deliberation.
I’m so glad I’m an RTS clone.
I have a red headed sister and she also has a way of keeping every one smiling. As well as a red headed daughter who spend her time doing for every one else.
It is also nice knowing I am not an RTS clone but then I know him and there for I know who each on of you are ad the differences have always stood out
so have a toast to RTS and lets get on with it.
Marti gest remember the easy way to asses me is to remember I am old school started fighting Fire when I was 17 in 1961. A whole different generation in a whole different time before JFK was assassinated. That will help you reflect on where I am and maybe where I have been.
This dam key board has some hard keys keep missing letters sorry.
will do a double check from now on.
Marti…
RE: Calculated Risk
I just wanted to say that whatever I said on the other thread in response to your postings about ‘how the stage is set’… I really do TOTALLY AGREE with just about EVERYTHING you posted back there following your extensive research.
It’s amazing stuff… DIRECTLY relevant… and I hope you keep ‘looking at the big picture’ like you have been doing and posting more about that.
I do, however, also agree with Mr. Powers responses about ‘Calculated Risk’ and how that term can be abused.
Essentially… we ALL take ‘Calculated Risks’ every frickin’ day.
When you take you car out onto the highway… we are always basically ‘calculating’ that if we obey the speed limits… keep our eyes on the road… and drive carefully… that nothing bad is going to happen.
Usually… that is correct.
Sometimes ( through no fault of your own )… someone T-bones you at an intersection or rear-ends you because THEY weren’t ‘paying attention’.
On that day… the constant ‘Calculated Risk’ you take driving a 2,000 pound piece of metal alongside other 2,000 pound pieces of metal just showed itself to be more ‘Risk’ than not.
Do we stop driving just because that MIGHT happen.
Of course not.
So ‘Calculated Risk’ is ‘relevant’.
It is ‘relevant’ to how much RISK is actually involved and how much ‘Calculating’ goes into making the decision to TAKE that risk.
What Mr. Powers was saying was that in an inherently ‘risky’ environment like a Wildland Fire… it is possible to do your job WITHOUT saying you are constantly taking ‘Calculated Risks’.
You can ( and should ) ALWAYS do a WHOLE lot of ‘Calculating’ to the point where the ‘Risk’ factor is either totally negated or at an absolute minumum. That’s called ‘Planning and Following Established Rules of Safety’.
It doesn’t mean you won’t get T-boned in an intersection.
It just means that when you have done ALL that YOU can do to ‘minimize risk’… the likelihood of anything bad happening is down
to near ZERO.
So I was never trying to say that Firefighting NEVER involves taking some ‘Calculated Risks’.
I was just fundamentally disagreeing with any suggestion that just because it can be a dangerous workplace that the employees in that environment are justified in believing that ALL of their ‘decisions’ are not subject to ‘review’ like any other workplace.
I believe you ‘set the stage’ correctly… and that that is what most FFs actually THINK and why they have such conflicted feelings about agencies like Fed OSHA and State XDOSH.
I was only saying that I ( me, personally ) believe they are not JUSTIFIED in believing they should somehow be automatically ‘exempt’ from the safety reviews performed by those agencies.
Some of the ‘Calculated Risks’ that are taken in ANY workplace CAN rise to the level of irresponsibility and negligence when they are obviously outside the realm of normal industry-standard safety procedures.
NO ONE gets a ‘get out of lawsuits’ free card just because THEY think their job is ‘inherently risky’.
RE: WHAT MARSH MIGHT HAVE BEEN THINKING
I am still going back over the entire evidence record and checking on this one.
I do believe, though, that we may have been looking at the ‘motivations’ aspect of what happened that afternoon all wrong.
All along… I believe the assumptions just about everyone has been making while looking at the evidence is that whatever decisions were being made up on that ridge about ‘moving’ were totally focused on Granite Mountain and whether THEY could be ‘useful down there’ or not.
What if nothing could be further from the TRUTH.
What if this was really ALL ABOUT MARSH… and his belief that HE had responsibilities and ‘obligations’ ( because be was DIVSA that day ) that had nothing to do with Granite Mountain at all.
What if Marsh’s thinking that afternoon after 1542 and he discovered Frisby wasn’t coming up to meet him had nothing to do with what he felt Granite Mountain should or shouldn’t be doing at that point?
What if it was just Marsh thinking “What should a good DIVSA be doing next?”
The answer ( in his own head )… “Get to town ASAP and help direct that Air Support that my OPS just said he was sending down this way because I am the senior commander on this end of the fire.”
I KNOW that doesn’t explain about Steed and GM (as you pointed out).
I KNOW this probably raises more questions than it answers.
But my point is that we MAY have been ‘looking into motivations’ all wrong.
At 1542… up on that ridge… there were TWO men who had positions of authority and TWO men who had ‘different jobs’ and different ‘agendas’.
Marsh had been made DIVSA for only about the second or third time in his entire life ( and he was already 43 years old and being ‘phased out’ of field work by his own boss, Darrell Willis ).
Marsh might have only been focused on ‘being a good DIVSA’.
Steed had been put totally in charge of a Type 1 Hotshot crew on an active fire for only one of the few times in his life as well… and he knew he was also being ‘mentored’ to replace Marsh according to Darrell Willis’ instructions as well.
Steed might have only been focused on ‘being a good GMIHC SUP’.
Neither one of these men wanted to ‘screw up’… but BOTH of these men had different ‘jobs’ that day and different ‘responsibilities’.
Marsh was ALONE most of the day… moving around up on that ridge and talking on the radio., directing retardant layment out in that valley with Air Attack Rory Collins, and giving Todd Abel updates on fire behavior. He was involved in the morning frap with Rory Collins dropping retardant on their indirect burns… but even then that just proves he thought his job was to be talking to Air Attack about where to drop retardant.
So on THIS day… Marsh probably came to believe his PRIMARY job as DIVSA from that elevated western ridge was to be helping direct Air Support in Division A ( all day ).
Fast forward to the wind shift and the fire headed towards town and the realization that evacuations were in progress ‘down there’..
Add the call from Abel that he was not actively ‘sending Air Support down there ASAP’.
Marsh is now out on the ridge with a smoke column starting to move between himself and the town and if he was going to keep being a good ‘DIVSA’ that day… he NEEDED to get somewhere else where he could help ‘direct’ the Air Support his OPS was now sending.
There may have been nothing more to it than that… in MARSH’S mind.
That is what he felt he was SUPPOSED to do in order to keep being a good DIVSA that day and he didn’t need anyone else’s INPUT about it.
I am not suggesting for one moment that Eric Marsh didn’t give a damn about what Granite Mountain was or wasn’t supposed to be doing at that point.
I am only saying that Marsh’s PRIMARY motivation might have simply been what he thought a ‘Division Supervisor’ was supposed to be doing in that situation.
Maybe Marsh knew full well, at that point, that 19 other guys with just hardhats and handtools weren’t going to be able to do SQUAT ‘down there’… but that still had nothing to do with what HE felt HE ‘needed to do’ as DIVSA.
I am not even going to ‘outline’ how I think Steed and GM got into this picture other than to perhaps suggest that it was really just a “Well… if you’re so damn sure YOU need to be down there… then we’re coming too” kinda thing until I do more research…
…but this possible “I am DIVSA and I need to KEEP being a good DIVSA” thought that might have been uppermost in Marsh’s mind that day actually WOULD explain quite a number of things.
More later…
Typo above… including the infamous ‘not’ instead of ‘now’ typo.
The following statement(s) above should have read…
Add the call from Abel that he was NOW actively ‘sending Air Support down there ASAP’.
Marsh is NOW out on the ridge with a smoke column starting to move between himself and the town and if he was going to keep being a good ‘DIVSA’ that day… he NEEDED to get somewhere else where he could help ‘direct’ the Air Support his OPS was NOW sending.
There may have been nothing more to it than that… in MARSH’S mind.
That is what he felt he was SUPPOSED to do in order to keep being a good DIVSA that day and he didn’t need anyone else’s INPUT about it.
Possible but I do not believe plausible.
There were engine crews in glen illa Marsh was assigned to the fire line on top not the entire south side of the fire, if he had 2 or 3 crews on that line he still in my opinion as DIVA would have told all the crews to pull back to the Black and stay in the black safety area they were going to lose all the line they had put in because the fire had breached the other divisions line and was out of control. His line was actually the west side of the fire not the new south side a mile and a half from his location. He was a new DIV. SUP. with lack of experience in the position still attached by an umbilical cord to GM 2 connective factors that a unattached DIV. SUP. would not have had.
To do what you suggest would have him jumping into a OPS roll with out any request or changing his assignment with out a request. There were other overhead closer to fill that assignment. I go back to my conclusion Their assignment was done and they headed off the hill no re positioning headed to there trucks end of shift.
Bob,
In response to WTKTT’s comment above you say:
“To do what you suggest would have him jumping into a OPS roll with out any request or changing his assignment with out a request.”
But what ACTUALLY occurred that day, was done ‘without any request, along with changing assignment without a request’.
So, for GM to do what they ACTUALLY did, is no more of a stretch for me than WTKTT’s theory, above.
Keeping in mind that the FIRE was now re-drawing all of the division lines and breaks, just none of the new one’s had been determined, or put on paper.
As the fire blew south and blew the division lines south, it’s not much of a stretch, for me anyways, to to think that someone could have the thought process that, ‘my division responsibilities are moving south along with the, as yet, undetermined new Alpha div breaks.
Don’t misconstrue this comment as me disagreeing with you on any safety rules or any part of LCES. YES communication, requests, and permission WOULD BE part of the process in any given scenario.
I just think, it’s as reasonable for someone to have had this thought process, as it is to have had any of the thought processes that have been proposed in the past as to why Marsh and/or GM moved south.
If he needed to move the crew to attack the fire and start new line he had 2 choices.
1. Move to the place where the fire was at the black and line and start new line down hill. As we both know that was a bad choice. Never build line down hill with the fire below you even wit 1 foot in the black..
This is basically the same thing as what they did by going down thru dense brush to get to the bottom of the fire.
2. Go around thru the black to the base of the fire find an anchor point and start new line. This again as we know is the only way to reengage. The real problem here is the fire was moving faster than they could have got there as proven by what happened.
But that move would have been a better choice for any crew safe and able to start new line had the fire not turned and ran across the flats.
We talk about reengage but what and where would that be? They were in a high position with few choices near end of shift the fire was in town and not a place that a hand crew could do any thing with.
From my stand point at 1600 the crew was done, sit back or move thru the black and down and out in the black. There was no way for any frontal attack on the fire at that time in anyone’s imagination.
Willis seems to have invented the word for his own justification and the SAIT used it in there report with infact no actual proof of GM moving for that reason
.
If infact there move was to a Safety Zone then they had no plan to reengage. Only get to a place they could be picked up. Just my conclusion. They were moving to a safety zone where they could be picked up when ever there was an opportunity to do so.
Mr. Powers.
Is it possible their move to re engage (if that were to be true) was connected to the Dozer and the fact that it (or Ball) was scouting line near Glen Isla?
Bob,
Please re-read my comment. It had nothing to do with ‘building line’ anytime, at anyplace.
What I was speaking of was the movement of the division line (between the division breaks) which would have been referenced on the maps they didn’t get that morning.
The ACTUAL Div A now had a much larger area (although as yet, undefined), and as WTKTT has theorized, PERHAPS Marsh felt he needed to be the point man on the southwest side for the air resources.
Although at this time, this theory IS just speculation, I, personally, don’t think it is any less reasonable than all the other theories that have been thrown out there.
TTWARE–
Yes I checked what you said had that understanding probably did not make clear what I said.
A plausible theory, providing a simple explanation as to why Marsh moved south.
Taking that theory one step further, a simple explanation for GM also heading south, could have been Marsh’s desire to keep the only resources assigned to him close-by, in case any tactical needs presented themselves.
True
Calvin—- Again the safety of the move and what would they do with the dozer. We are back to frontal attack again the dozer could not do that either. Simple Fire Fighting practices. Attack the flanks and work around the fire. pinching it off. Also the cat was not assigned to Marsh. Some one else (Ball) had directed it to go there or it was free lancing with out supervision another bad situation but Marsh knew none of that or was requested to do that. Again this mess got worse and no one knew what was going on or who was in charge of what this is not supposed to happen with a qualified team. Control and chain of command are foremost.
Divisions leaders and crews do not go off on their own.
Close escapes and disasters follow when there is no leadership. The preverbal Chines fire drill..
Your on your own safety is foremost you better make the right decisions for the safety of your self and your crews.
Thanks.
If there was nothing for GM/Div A to do with the dozer, then what were they (Hernandez and Ball) doing with the dozer?
With the new theory of Marsh being the point person on the south side of the fire, and the only DivS, it seems very conceivable that they were possibly/potentially working together.
I think they moved the dozer to the flat bead to load it and get out of there. Same as the crew they could not make a feasible frontal attack on the fire. It was allover the place and spotting every where you could be building line and have a spot fire over run your location not a good plan in Glen Alia, They had no defensible area.
I think they took the dozer back to the Trailer to load it and get the equipment out of the way and that is why they were there not to build line.
I think they decided that was not feasible and got out of there. We don’t know if they really checked with no report from Ball or Hernandez.
While we are out there researching go back and check what Marsh was told his assignment was for the day and what resources he was assigned. My understanding was his assignment was to find a anchor point and build containment line to the cat line. He was assigned 1 Crew GM to accomplish that on DIV. A. He had no other responsibility.
BR and the cat were in the next DIV Z . Marsh had a small Air tanker assigned to him in the morning which did not work well because Air Attack kept dropping on his Fire outs so was he ever really in charge of ordering Air tankers?
Why would he then assume he had the responsibility in Glen Alia?
when every one else was ordering drops in town to save what structures they could.
Mr Powers.
The fire crossed the retardant line at 1540 and we hear Marsh giving that report. By backing off a good distance, could they attempt once again to construct line?
Reply to mike post on September 8, 2014 at 9:40 pm
>> mike said…
>>
>> There is a comment posted at the Phoenix NT site with a link to a WordPress
>> blog – “yarnellhillfireblog”. The comment alleges that most of us here are a
>> creation of RTS, that we were created to agree with him and validate his opinions.
You have to love it.
“Internet Conspiracy Theories” about the “Internet Conspiracy Theorists”.
You just can’t make this stuff up.
LMFAO
You don’t know the real facts I will just say she has taken it to a whole new level if you gave her your E-Mail be very very careful. I think she was banned from here.
curious, who is this you are writing about?
Elizabeth.