Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV, Chapter XXVI and Chapter XXVII, XXVIII and XXIX.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Joy-the world situation is not improving–now we see that even people in the small town of Las Cruces are protesting on the streets. I was quite surprised to see that, although the Police State has gone a bit too heavy on the citizens rights.
When you go to killing citizens and breaking into homes without warrants–and killing a man over an accusation of purchasing cigarettes with a counterfeit bill then there is reason to protest. That man had no criminal record and who knows how he got a counterfeit bill–some counterfeits are so well made you can not tell the difference without special detection equipment. Shit they are even checking five dollar bills here at stores.
Sadly the real counterfeiters are the World Bankers–they get richer by printing paper and offering it to our tax payers as money and we pay interest to them. They can turn their counterfeit into real tangible assets as well as gold and silver and the like. When 1% of the population at the top of the pyramid own 40% of the worlds wealth, you can understand why. If you counterfeit money the way they have, then there is no wonder.
It is quite amazing that the counterfeiter is counterfeiting a counterfeit. He gets more time for his criminal actions than the original counterfeiters–the 1% World Banker organization and their minions–filthy rich in assets while manipulating the masses where the greatest majority of people are living on less than $2 per day to survive.
Fiat means a declaration or decree–In the case of money the government just declared that the debt certificate issued by World Bankers of the Federal Reserve, a private institution, is money. Well somewhere along the line people are waking up to find that it has no backing no more than that the counterfeiter of the counterfeit fiat money is backed. It is only a promise that the 1% will make it good and since they are draining the wealth by claiming their debt certificates of paper are good, people over time have seen that paper going to what it is worth–no more than a sheet of paper and not even good toilet paper. So eventually people need two jobs to survive and even the family at slave labor if it can be found.
When I was a kid, coffee was 5 cents. Yesterday I stopped at loves and from two dollars, I received 6 cents in change. A nickle cup of coffee is now two dollars and I guess quite a bit more at Star Bucks, even for the common blend I drink. That goes to show you how these one per centers are living at the taxpayer, slave mentality expense.
The pyramid scheme that began in 1913 by the World Bankers who invaded our monetary system is finally nearing fruition–the takers are ending up with 40% of the World’s wealth–and as always those that were fleeced are left holding the empty bag.
This anger over the murder of George Floyd is not only about excessive abuse of person rights, it concerns the denial of people to survive by their right to employment–their pursuit of life. Police are sworn to uphold the Constitution, just as that tyrant we call a President is.
Trump has increased his wealth 30 times since becoming President–and he will continue to hide his assets just as all Presidents do. Certainly he has not made America any greater–but he has increased his own coffers–but this Corporate government has done this for every President, and so in all fairness, Trump is no exception. Perhaps though he will go down in history as having fooled the public but at the same time exposing the system for what changes need to be made.
I see Trump ordered tear gassing the peaceful demonstrations so he could have some quite to do his meeting thing–likely he would have preferred machine gunning them to stop the noise. Yet it is only by mass demonstrations that there will be any change at all–and now we see Trump is actually bringing in the Military Forces against the mass demonstrations.
It is only by demonstations of the masses that anything will change. As you can see by the events at Yarnell, government has little interest in the truth or change. It had little effect to correct a bad situation and obvious neglect of truth concerning the deaths of the 19 GMHS–future lives were of little concern for the government powers that be. But that is only a small example of the whole of the system–something that can only be corrected by mass demonstrations.
I am happy to see the demonstrations–although the looters and such err in their actions, their actions do cause the political thieves to take notice. Their own white collar thievery is challenged–so they too must act or loose their positions of power. And police that are involved in gross neglect of duty must also start realizing they have sworn to protect citizen rights–if they are killing people or abusing their authority they deserve worse punishment than even a common citizen. The murder of George deserves a harsher punishment due to abuse of authority to commit the murder. Yet police in over a 1000 killings each year–and the statistics are on par up to now, yet only one or two are prosecuted although many are unjustified.
It is quite obvious that their will be more disturbances–Military is sworn to defend the Constitution–I had done that myself when drafted in 1967–and I do not intend to take up arms against demonstrations that must take place to get the corporate political servants to take notice so they begin to serve the public and not their own interests fostered by Corporate powers.
Get yourself a sack of beans, some extra rice and some tomato sauce–and fuck the rules of isolation–get out and get some sunshine–without it life can be miserable–our bodies need the Vitamin D and it can only be produced by sunshine unless you have a pill bottle.
Yes, make America Great Again by bringing back the power to the people and not allowing the usurping of the people by a corporate government. Expect to experience drastic life to do so–but as my Dad would say, I rather pick shit with the chickens than accept the unacceptable. He laid in the mud in the trenches and fought to preserve those freedoms, yet they have been diminished and removed in these latter years with forces acting like SS–how else can you describe the killing of George Lloyd by Derik Chauvin and his fellow officers? When will police and government officials begin to represent the citizen–perhaps the demonstrations will help to remind them of their real purpose and duty.
sláinte
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxxi-here/
New Chapter
Here is something I did get from Dr. Butros–a U-tube presentation if I remember his name correctly. But what is important he also traced the Corona Virus to North Carolina State University where he as well as the other Professor I had posted affirmed that China had taken the virus work accomplished and funded by the Chinese back to Wuhan China. Why main media does not talk about these facts, you will have to decide.
But Dr. Butros is strictly against microwaves in the home–he has the studies and he and another professor did 20 years ago studies of what microwaves do to animals–cataracts, cancer, tumors of the heart and brain in mice. He got rid of his and has not had a microwave or eaten microwave cooked food in those 20 years.
I have to chuckle since every time I think of microwaves, I think of Nick, Joy’s brother in law. In a visit I met Nick and shook hands with him in greeting. As soon as Joy mentioned I had been a Uranium miner he started backing up from me. In doing so he backed up against his microwave oven heating his food. He did not realize he was getting more radiation for the microwave than from my contaminated bones.
But what I wanted to mention was that Dr. Butros correlated something that may very well have significance to the environment, health and even the Covid-19 virus. He noted that the jump to 5G that is requiring towers by the thousands since 5G will only range to 5-10 houses will also mean a jump in EMF frequencies from 3G that was about 9Mhz to 4G that was in the 30Mhz range to now a 5G range in the 900Mhz to 30Ghz range.
He notes that 180 scientists have signed a petition to the World Health Organization demanding a moratorium on the effects to health and the environment this 5G installation will cause. There are a couple small countries that have already banned 5G, but China, Italy, and Iran are the fore runners of quick installation of 5G. (5G requires the cutting down of trees and needs almost direct line to be effective but increases internet speed many times over the 3 and 4G download rates).
It just so happens, Wuhan was where China first implemented on a grand scale 5G internet. Italy and Iran followed suit with massive installation of 5G. In Italy Lombardi has the highest kill rate from the Covid-19 virus and it is also where the densest installation of 5G towers have been introduced.
Iran has followed suit with China in installing 5G on a grand basis.
Dr. Butros believes from his past experiments of EMF radiation in the 5G exponentially increased range that there is a correlation of the increase in deaths in areas where 5G is already installed. He points out that it messes with the cell wall ability to accept the virus–his posts on U-tube are more technical for the reasons. Than and the fact that 180 scientists have petitioned WHO make this a good reason to question 5G.
He points out,as do the 180 scientists, that the scientific reports concerning safety come from the giant corporations that are installing 5G–these are not independent studies. And if these studies are anything like the Pharma studies that the US Health authorities only accept, then you can bet they will always declare the Corporation financed studies to be valid and override any independent studies.
You make up your own mind on this one–is the faster internet worth the side effects such as brain tumor, heart tumor and cancer? Well Dr. Butros and 180 other scientists may be wrong in their studies and assumptions–but I for one think it best to err on the safe side and keep my neighborhood trees that need cutting down–in England they cut some beautiful old trees in great numbers to install 5G. There has to be better and safer technology to get these increases.
I did complete putting together my own computer–I found the $500 variety computer I had purchased on line was put together with cheap parts that cost the seller less than 200–it worked pretty good until I had paid $29 for windows protection that was a scam that screwed the bios up so that they would repair it and keep it in shape for a $260 fee yearly of $650 for 5 years. All kinds of scammers out there–it cost me another computer but I also decided to put one together on my own. Now I have a computer that would have cost me upwards of $2500 since it has beyond a $1000 in parts–the motherboard was $350 and the CPU $600 (threadripper) and 64 Gb Ram, and so forth. Overkill in my use but no hesitation at all as I type and likely this computer will keep me satisfied for quite a long time provided the Covid-19 does not interfer–then my gamer son can enjoy.
I am working off a WiFi hot spot Verizon–they limit hell out of download and upload speeds although I pay for unlimited use of WiFi. These big companies are real rip offs, much like Big Pharma. They will install 5G despite the health and environmental effects and you have to know that profits over health will always be their mandates. For instance did you know insulin-an absolute life necessity to many–costs only $2 a shot to manufacture–yet the cost to the consumer is $280. If Big Pharma really cared about people, that would be one product that they would be providing at an affordable price. But life is not that important to these people–at least the way I look at things.
Because my hearing is so bad I would ask some of you to go to AdvancedMedicine.com and get on to the Part 5 video done by Dr. Rashid Buttar. There you will see some revelations about the Covid virus and some footage taken that tell a completely different story than the panic we are given. His videos are removed from You Tube and Facebook when he presents the video evidence he has. It is quite an eye opener especially when you see that main media is presenting victims of the corona virus in a video clip for New York. Then in another video clip of the dying in Milan, Italy–you see the same identical video clip if you stop it. Dr. Rashid says this looks staged since he has been working hospitals for years and the clip does not jive to be real. Then there are the coffins–those are from a ship wreck in 2006, yet they are presented on main media as victims of the corona virus. Then there are videos of several hospitals and there are no emergency patients- Medical people in those NY hospitals are saying it is political hype.
Well if that is not an eye opener and would explain Trumps stance–is this video hype and there you have Bill Gates talking about adding 100 million and Dr. Buttro shows that Gates is the owner of the patents and company to do a vaccine for Corona Virus. The Vaccine patent was done 2006. So yes if that is so donating 100 million if you have a company that will make a few billion off vaccines that will be required for every child to go back to school and add to that the vaccine around the world. Is Dr. Rashid Buttro for real? I think he is–but you have better hearing and some of you much better understanding about medicine–I know DND has a medic background. The video is lengthy but maybe worth your indulgence.
There was a code to get onto his site–111 was sent to my email. I think it is good for anyone that wants to get onto that site. If it is real, wow–talk about a snow job.
I had wondered how Dr. Fauchi could escape the media and the fact that he had sanctioned the increase of function to continue for the Chinese Dr. at the Chapel Hill University in North Carolina–2014. That was despite protests of medical people and the mandate to not upgrade the potency of any level 4 virus. Dr. Fauchi had overidden the rule saying that the increase of function rules did not apply in this upgrade. As a result the Chinese Dr., et. al. were successful in creating the Covid-19 upgraded virus–a work that was funded both by US and Chinese sources. This is well documented–names, results of upgrade, etc. and so forth all in prestigious Health Journals.
So you could see that since the Chinese Dr. returned to Wuhan in 2015 after the successful upgrade of the Sars virus–why has this information not hit the news. Well I did look at Dr. Fauchi–He has served 6 presidents, his budget is 5.9 billion dollars for the NIAID of which he is the director. He has something like 49 honorary doctorate degrees from various universities –credentials galore
The Covid 19 is not his first pandemic. Here is one he was involved in similar to the now Covid 19 pandemic. After SARS-CoV emerged from China in November 2002 it spread to 26 countries within a few months, largely by infected passengers who traveled. More than 8,000 people fell ill and 774 died. SARS drew the collective focus of researchers throughout the world.
I think if there was one question I would ask this learned and highly intelligent Doctor–Why after all your experience and knowing how the SARS-CoV had spread so widely and killed so many would you even consider allowing an upgrade on that very virus. And did the fact that many leaned-even Harvard scientists, including those in pathology and medical fields were protesting such an action.
But then if you google you will see the many people saying this is a conspiracy theory–it can be shown that this virus did not come from a man made virus–it is a mutated bat virus that came from bat soup in the only place China has a level 4 bio lab and where the Covid 19 science created virus made a home.
Granted a bat virus similar can infect a person but it has a hard time there and does not spread. I would need according to scientists dealing with pathogens–about 19 mutations to attain the status of Covid 19 with its ability to spread among the population.
I think you are ok eating your bat soup if you boil it well, and I am certain all bat soup eaters are aware–they have been eating bat soup for centuries without the outbreaks–these people know how to eat bat soup safely. And if you were to eat the raw meat or get some blood in your mouth–then the bat variety would get you sick–but it does not spread and you would need a bad immune system even for it to survive–it likes bats, not humans or monies or pigs.
After the Yarnell ordeal of killing the 19, I just do not always take the people that run things at their word. I prefer to really check things out–the perceptions made are not always the truth. The higher up the totem, the more you have controls, the more people accept your story without question–but I do not care how great your are, the fact that you hide facts blemishes your credibility.
Lets make it a real conspiracy theory–that number 19–connected to so many death events–The devil and his bee hive subordinates like that number. And so you know 9 is a cult number–If you multiply it–the sum of the digits always comes to nine. 9×9=81 and 8+1=9, The twin towers came down on 911 and 19 terrorist brought it down. This number comes up coincidentally very often in tragedies. And some old cowboy said too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence.
If you want to know why Jeffery Epstein never got his day in court–google Epstein’s close associates. Trump, Clinton (states he never met the guy) but did ride in his private jet and many photos, Prince Andrew, and a long list of celebrities and corporate power brokers, etc. His lawyer states his black book will never become public. Pedophilia is quite rampant among the blue bloods–even the Bush clan are involved–one David Icke of England states in his book Everything You Need to Know, “Bush has been a pedophile and violent abuser of children of a Savile-type scale for much of his life”. Icke asks why would the CIA go ahead and name their main headquarters The George Bush Center for Intelligence.
Nothing is surprising when you see that the Catholic Priesthood is itself infested with a group of pedophiles and that with the Pope’s knowledge for so long–was he protecting them ( as the CIA protects the President and his reputation) because he also is guilty or was it to protect the vast wealth of the church itself? It could be either or both. And do not think I condemn Catholic people–the largest part believe and practice good principles–my own families come from a Catholic background. However, ignorance of what the whole scheme is about and the truth are hidden from most. If you look at the history of the Christian religion and specifically the Catholic Church since it began in 313, with Emperor Constantine I’s Edict of Milan and has since followed with unimaginable treachery and methods to control an empire that still exists today you will understand. Yes I know the Pope would say he has the keys handed down from Peter direct from Christ and so forth. But I say he is well aware of what he is and does. In any event there are about 1.6 Billion–mostly good people that belong to the church and like any secret organization, be it Mormon or Mason, you know very little on the lower level–you have to be on the top levels to know what is really happening and to have the power to usurp the ignorant.
This pedophilia comes from the Satanists idea that a child has a life force available to them–the abuse and sacrifice they believe empowers them–maybe it does since so many psychopaths do make it to the top echelons in politics, corporations, banks and world leadership.
Epstein’s mistake was keeping a black book that he believed would save his ass. Instead he got his quick deserves–but then the sad part the public did not get to see who all his buddies in crime were.
The US has about 650 thousand children going missing each year. The world over it would approximate a million. These pedophiles destroy the lives of their victims–they in a way are captives of Satan themselves and share the guilt. But then their conscience is seared, much as those we see on a lesser scale that lie and hide truth involving the deaths of their fellows fire fighters.
Fighting fire is like fighting the Devil–and he will get you if he can and most certainly if you are ignorant of your downloads and why they are there.
That study I posted by the Wisconsin Medical Society blamed the fumes and chemicals used in making microwave popcorn as the reason for lung disorders. If you read the whole study that was the conclusion–and it was very disastrous for people working around the microwave ovens. However, other studies also linked the microwaving to cancer.
Here is a post by a person concerning microwaving at home. Maybe it will help someone –but if you have a habit of microwave how will you eat? Most people do not know how to make a pancake or even fry an egg and do not want to bother. Anyway if this man;s post means anything to you then good. I do not have a microwave–I know Joy does not use one but her brother in law and husband do use them: so here is a paste and make up your own mind–I do not need to since I do not use or have them.
Max Stanley Chartrand
DigiCare Behavioral Research
First, microwaving reportedly alters and destroys amino acids and covalent bonds of DNA in the food, the building blocks of life (i.e. the “microwave effect”—see http://www.rfsafe.com/archive/research/rf_hazards/dna_damage/microwave_effect.htm for a more complete treatment of this topic). In one study it was suggested that during microwaving certain amino acids were converted into their carcinogenic and toxic d-isomer cousins. Nothing live survives microwaving, save some dreadful salmonella and e Coli bacteria. This causes your immune system to produce pro-inflammatory cytokines that bring inflammation and the conditions that arise from inflammation and acidosis (perhaps 80% of all chronic disease results from inflammation!). If you are wondering how this affects an otherwise healthy individual, look at your before/after changes in C-reactive protein scores (an inflammatory measure), triglycerides, and A1C scores (a hemoglobin/oxygen measure) in clinical blood tests when refraining from microwaving. The results can be quite stunning, as will be your overall health.
Microwaving food also causes complex carbohydrates to be converted into simpler carbohydrates, which can spike one’s blood sugar, raise triglycerides, and secrete too much fat-preserving insulin, while shutting off fat-burning glycogen. The result is hyperinsulinemia, arguably the biggest driver behind the obesity and diabetes pandemics.
Only synthetic nutrition survives in tact during microwaving, as nutrition that is organic soon becomes inorganic. As mentioned above, the violent “microwave effect” on the DNA can make food “foreign” to the human digestive and immunological system, taking longer to digest and increasing allergies, in general. For certain, the body knows the difference between microwaved food and that prepared by other means, as evidenced by exploding rates of metabolic and digestive disorders seen in microwave consumers.
Because microwaved food must be reconstructed by the body by borrowing amino acids and enzymes, it can cause corresponding amino acid depletions in the precursors for serotonin (mood control), melatonin (sleep/wake cycle), and dopamine (motor control and tremor). These hormonal interruptions are increasingly evidenced by rising levels of abnormalities, such as depression, anxiety, sleep disorders, and tremor. Serotonin’s main role is in food-to-nutrition synthesis and to aid in facilitating glucagon and insulin secretions. The disruption of serotonin, therefore, causes nutritional and metabolic abnormalities, including a rise in sugars being converted into triglycerides in the liver.
This is why SSRI and other anti-depressants can actually cause diabetes and weight gain—since they also distort the prominent role of serotonin without rectifying the real underlying causes of the depression for which they were prescribed. Further, we find that microwaved food requires the body to spend an extra 2-3 hours to digest compared more healthily prepared meals. As mentioned above, that is because the body’s immune system essentially suspends the food-to-nutrition synthesis functions while sorting out what has been ingested. This, in turn, can cascade into acid reflux (because the pyloric sphincter will not open until the pancreas has done its work), interruption of the citric acid cycle, elevated triglycerides and LDL cholesterol, and chronic conditions like Irritable Bowel Syndrome (IBS), etc.
Others have suggested that cooking meat in the microwave oven causes it to go into a kind of “rotting” process through destruction of nucleoproteins. This, in turn, causes the digested (and especially undigested) meat proteins to breakdown into cytotoxins and uric acid, setting off even more chronic disease and propensity toward abnormal cell growth (i.e., cancer). Metal and plastics are often added to packaged microwaved foods to simulate conventional cooking textures and tastes. While the altered taste and texture may fool you, it does not fool your immune system.
Likewise, pets’ health degrades substantially when eating microwaved food, developing serious candida yeast, ear infections, and other disorders. Many veterinarian physicians are concerned about pets being fed the same over-processed, synthetically fortified, and degerminated microwaved foods their owners eat. For such increases risks of cancer and other human-like conditions in pets!
Of great concern, also, is that baby formulae and/or Mother’s milk heated in plastic bottles in the microwave is unsafe. Furthermore, dangerous levels of Bisphenol A (BPAs) found in today’s microwavable food packaging have been linked to cancer, developmental disorders, diabetes, early puberty, and obesity in children. Some state health departments warn the public of these potential dangers.
In addition, every safety manual on warming of human blood for transfusions that we have examined says never use a microwave to warm the blood. This quiet affirmation that microwaving of blood is dangerous reinforces the thesis of the “microwave effect” even if it cannot be fully explained by scientists—many know it exists.
Before many governments clamped down and forbid further studies on safety of being exposed to microwave ovens, several early studies reported what has been called “microwave sickness” in the literature: headache, dizziness, eye pain, sleeplessness, irritability, anxiety, stomach pain, nervous tension, inability to concentrate, hair loss, appendicitis, cataracts, sterility, and cancer. Many microwave ovens in use today reportedly leak radiation as a result of defective doors and insulation.
Chronic and long-lasting symptoms from using microwave ovens have also been reported variously as adrenal exhaustion, ischemic heart disease, increased cancer cell formation, and long-term digestive disorders. Gradual breakdown of elimination systems in the body.
AS a comment–some researchers are reporting that the cytokine load that cause lung inflammation and pneumonia can also be a result of microwave –Icke had said it was at 60ghz this effect happened? I can see a concern for making the world into a microwave oven.
5G seems to be inevitable. Elon Musk’s SpaceX plans to launch 42,000 satellites that will essentially blanket the earth in EMFs!
Forget the Tesla car–My son bought one–from Las Cruces to Phoenix it took three stops in a car that new cost about a hundred grand. Each stop, Deming, Wilcox and Tucson, then Phoenix to start back home again were approximately one hour stops to charge batteries. So maybe good for short runs but don’t go on a long trip.
Joy posted a link to previous RTS post::https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-483235
A quote in the post from Willis stated that we would never know the actual truth since the men are dead. RTS disputed Willis on that point. The article is worth rereading and informative. I do agree with RTS and dispute Willis.
Perhaps it would be better stated by Willis if he said he hopes that the real truth never becomes known. It is well known by now, always was known even by those that would hide the facts and truth and have motive and agendas to do so.
Maybe the system of allowing redactions, mum orders and false entries of information will be cleansed by this long and arduous work of exposure of a blatant cover up. Or perhaps the troops have been mind fucked to the point they do not care or are too fearful to make a stand for the truth.
Well we must be grateful and give applause to RTS and others posting here that refuse to bend to any kind of mockery of the truth and false presentation of the reasons those young Heroes were killed.
They truth must be known else the lie will continue sicken the system and needlessly destroy lives of these young heroes.
You should know for only $69 you can provide yourself with a chip implanting kit–much like your pooch, Big Brother will be able to identify you and get your information–well once your identity is known your life can quickly be downloaded from the cloud.
Bill Gates will not be immediately providing this type chip for you, but his vaccines will have tiny markers so that you can be scanned to see if you have had the Covid-19 vaccine. This will make it safe for other people in your vicinity and air travel, etc. –they can not get the disease if you have the vaccine and it will work if everybody gets the shot. If you are caught without the vaccine, you will be pinned down by swat team goons and injected –it is the law. (Well, not yet but surely with all the fear and paranoia it has a good possibly become the law.) For instance, it already is in Denmark.
Bill Gates is the second richest man on earth–he knows what is good for mankind–you know one of the gods of mankind that know what is best for everyone–especially for his own interests and those that he rubs shoulders with. Well, Mr. Gates and Elon Musk–we hope that the Americans are not ready to forfeit their liberties to become a part of this New World Order.
However, I for one am all for anyone that wants the shot if that makes them feel better–and if you are a Dane–and don’t want the shot, you will take it or be quarantined–likely a camp encased with chain link something like what we do to the illegal immigrants.
Either way, Bill will profit greatly–the fear will have cause plenty of business even if American does not follow the example of the Danes. .
Taken from the blog below titled: Fetishizing An Enormous F*ckup – August 28, 2013, 9:46 am – From the location of the Yarnell fire deaths :
( h t t p : / /coyoteblog.c o m/coyote_blog/2013/08/fetishizing-an-enormous-fckup.html # disqus_thread )
“Darrell Willis, the Granite Mountain Hotshots direct supervisor in the Prescott Fire Department said that their deaths were God’s will: ‘ The voice of what actually happened, we’ll never know,” Willis says. “We’re not going to have that information from [the dead men]. ‘”
On the contrary and with all due respect, Mr. Willis, we WILL have the voices of what actually happened that day and we are going to actually have that “information [from the dead men]” once we have those:
(1) DPS and YCSO officers’ photos and videos taken from a quick helicopter flight while they still had good daylight on the afternoon of June 30, 2013;
(2) the June 30, 2013, 1600 GMHS Mackenzie photos and video, both from the camera they had at the Maricopa County ME office and the video camera found by his sister and turned over to her father who ostensibly made a copy and who turned it over to the PFD B/C Darrell Willis, who turned it overt to whom?;
(3) the four (4) GMHS GPS units always shown in GMHS photos and carried by the GMHS according to McDid-Not;
(4) and the PVFD FF Brandon and FFs’ photos, videos, and audios that were handed over to the SAIT and have yet to be retrieved and revealed;
(5) and of course, whatever other evidentiary evidence that is out there in the hands of WFs, FFs, local citizens, and others that witnessed the events of June 30, 2013.
Unfortunately, especially in the case of the June 30, 2013 YH Fire and GMHS debacle, further attention to these events reveals that many details of the fictional story don’t hold up to scrutiny.
“ Why would people loudly and publicly proclaim themselves as victims? Perhaps a better question, based upon the level of secondary gain, attention, protection and support received by these people, is why wouldn’t they? With all of the attention on the issue, why are we surprised when people are exaggerating, using, or downright lying, about victimization? Of course, when we attach benefits to identification as a victim, we will hear from more victims, both real and exaggerated. ” (emphasis added)
( Psychology Today – The Culture of Victimhood -Hoaxes, Trigger Warnings and Trauma-Informed care. Posted Jun 28, 2014 )
And all this is contained within the confines of this March 27, 2019, YHFR post link below about the GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not and his alleged ongoing journey of untruths, half-truths, fabrications, embellishments, lies, prevarications, and the like in order to “protect his Brothers” rather than reveal the truth about what was really discussed on the GMHS Crew Net frequency between DIVS A Marsh and GMHS Steed (” discussing our options “) that ultimately led to what fatally happened that afternoon.
Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations (March 27, 2019)
What dangers lie within their claims of invented truths of what occurred on June 30 2013, that were created and proselytized by those little nagging mosquitoes of our lives?
But wait … the official “Factual” YH Fire SAIT found “no indication of negligence, reckless actions, or violations of policy or protocol.” So then, put into the positive, they did everything right.
Holy Cow,
From 989 or so posts to over 1250 in a blink of an eye. That has to be some kind of record on here. I hope everyone is remaining safe and healthy through all that is happening. Posting more YHF stuff hopefully to follow. I’ll get back to everyone in a few weeks after I read and decipher the posts thar appeared overnight, be well.
DownhillIndirect
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on March 23, 2020 at 9:26 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> Holy Cow,
>>
>> From 989 or so posts to over 1250 in a blink of an eye.
>> That has to be some kind of record on here.
Actually… it’s not.
It happens, sometimes.
WTKTT,
Thanks man. For me I was surprised, now I know. How are you doing? How is everyone doing? We are doing good here and are well prepared. I was raised by blue collar parents and people who always told us to have enough food, water and love to help out our friends and neighbors that may not be prepared for anything that may arise. I won’t chastise those whom have behaved poorly during this time because people act terribly sometimes when their livelihoods are challenged. I feel badly for the private sector employees that can’t make a weeks wage or are waiting on the phone for state unemployment from 0700-1200 each day. I fear for my elders and my parents knowing they have compromised immune systems, I feel badly for my friends that face the same danger as they too have immune deficient systems.
I remember sitting through molecular biology during my initial Paramedic training years ago learning about different viruses, their make up and how each one has a fatal flaw, some know or un-known. I remember our medical director lecturing on the importance of knowing how fomites, pathogens and incubation periods for illnesses and viruses. He was and still is adamant about the levels of protection we as first responders need to be wearing as well as the general public. I think it was month 3 out of the 6 month didactic period of medic school when a satellite instructor from the northern region CDC office came in to instruct us on the transmission of viruses and other deadly infectious diseases and illnesses.
Needless to say that at a microscopic level a war is being waged everyday that if we could see it with the naked eye we’d all want to live in a pool mixed with alcohol, hydrogen-peroxide and Iodine (LOL). Obviously, we don’t so educating ourselves to a level some may not be aware of is paramount. I really never thought I would be re-visiting this simple equation that shows transmission levels and how an epidemiologist tracks virus transmission(s). By no means am I trying to come of as a brainiack or an elitist, I only want to share what I learned from some of the best in the field of medicine, preventative medicine and epidemiology.
So, the equation. The R-0 (R0) aka R Naught number is they key to tracking the passage of any said virus assuming the investigative information is accurate. The “R” represents the reproduction rate. The number after simply is how many will become infected once the initial carrier transferes the virus through a Fomite (or transmission surface, air-borne or direct contact). The equation looks like this and as an example I will use the most current R0 number for Covid-19. R0 = 1;2.1-1:2.5 depending on where you live and the success rate of a quarantined area. So for every 1 person infected 2.1-2.5 could be infected potentially. Where I live we have a tri county area in which 3.5 million people live. As of 3/24/2020 there are NO confirmed cases. However, 3 hours away 982 cases with 6 deaths. Of those cases the majority have either gotten better, showed no secondary illness and were released to their homes for home quarantine. It isn’t a coincidence that areas with large ports of entry (water) or with ship based goods and services were hit the hardest initially.The deaths from the information above were from a mixture of ages and health records. R0 info below..
https://web.stanford.edu/~jhj1/teachingdocs/Jones-on-R0.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_reproduction_number
I find it odd each year that big Pharma and the medical field think that the vaccination for Influenza(S) are working. Like any illusive bug it adapts, changes and mutates. Personally I had one flu shot in 15 years. That one time I received the vaccination I was sick 3 separate times with the worst Flu I have ever had. I refused the vaccination since knowing I’d be exposed almost daily serving the sick and injured as a civil servant. I haven’t gotten the Flu or any other strain of the flu since I denied the vaccination. Of course I have had my Hepatitis series, TB etc but not the generalized Influenza vaccine. I hear people openly talking about the death tolls just from the Flu(s) in years past and it begs the question, do people realize that the Flu has taken tens of thousands of lives from all walks of life, including people with no pre-existing illnesses? Last year during the measurable phase from CDC’s numbers alone the Flu(S) infection rate vs. the mortality rate was astounding. Yes C-19 isn’t the flu however with good personal hygiene, separation from ill individuals, good nutrition, limiting exposure to crowds and educating ones-self via legitimate sources we can expect to see a decline in cases and spread. Look at China, 1.5 weeks ago they closed all satellite hospitals because they did all of the right things, they got better and went home. I love my country and I am a Patriot but we can learn so many things by watching how other countries and cultures approached this virus. Please see Flu(s) numbers from the preliminary CDC site below.
https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/preliminary-in-season-estimates.htm
As a young man growing up in Arizona not poor, not wealthy but provided for, we were taught many valuable life trades and lessons. Hunting, fishing and finding clean water. Before the influx of water filters we were taught about where the water was safe, how to avoid areas where livestock pooped near it and to stay calm if something unforeseen happened. We camped in bedrolls all year long, made our own cover and used fire to warm everything. I am grateful I got to be that kid, that young man and man today that is teaching our son to be proud that he knows how to help when the time comes. I thank God I was born in a town that encouraged self-resiliency and helping one another.
In 1994 I moved to my dads house in preparation for my first season as a Hotshot. I had never been to California before so I was nervous from the now realized rumors I had heard of as a young man. I remember getting off of the plane at 1730 and going to an Italian restaurant for dinner. After we headed to my dads house, watched TV and went to bed. As I got into bed my dad said ” I’m really proud of you for getting the Hotshot job, I love you, get some rest”. Already nervous of the big bad California I didn’t fall asleep until midnight. I noticed a very obnoxious street light that bled through my bedroom window. At 04:30:55 PST, on January 17 1994 less than 15 hours of me being in California a 6.7(mw) earthquake deemed the “Northridge” earthquake rocked my dads home so forcefully that the bed I was laying on was on-top of me including the box-spring. I think I am a strong man but I couldn’t get up without being thrown to the ground. During that 49 second earth explosion the old school tube TV ripped off the retro-strapping and hit my left foot from 10′ away breaking three toes. After the initial quake stopped I ran downstairs to my parents room. They were screaming and their door was jammed and blocked by a 200 pound book-case. I told them to stand back as I broke the door of the hinges with super human strength (Pure Fear). All I could remember was how bright it was outside, but, the sun wasn’t up yet. As we made it to the front door I could smell petroleum burning and structure fire smoke as well. Before we exited, I noticed a crack from the floor to the ceiling 1.5 feet wide by 30 feet tall. My dads house was 2 years old and retro=fitted for earthquakes, wow, what if it wasn’t retrofitted?
We made it outside and the entire neighborhood was outside vomiting. Your equilibrium get seriously whacked out after a shacking like that. The EMF fields also have a hand in that. People were hurt badly, bleeding, heart attacks and a few died not 100 feet away. Our next door neighbors were elderly and loved my parents. I didn’t meet him yet until he ran over to me pleading to help his wife. She was trapped under a beam and bleeding profusely. Against my better judgement as 1 of 100’s of strong aftershocks began I ran in to help. I took my dad EMS kit filled with bandages and a tourniquet. I tried to use direct pressure to stop her bleeding but it didn’t work. I used the tourniquet and stopped the bleeding. We got her outside and kept her warm. The oil refinery a mile away was on fire as well as 4 house in our neighborhood. There was a 10 acre brush-fire and hundreds hurt. LA County FD is a giant FD but had their dispatch comms knocked out for the first 3 hours. The did send an engine to our area and my neighbor as taken via helicopter to UCLA med center, she made it, in shock from blood loss but made it. My neighbor, her husband said “Kiss your ass because you just lived through the big one, I’ve lived here 40 years and have never felt anything like it”. We were alive and we were ok. As the sun came up we went through 6.1- 5.9 aftershocks all day which were scarier that the first quake.
We all pulled together as strangers and each neighbor had a job. Security, cooking food on BBQ’s, childcare, EMS etc. Strangers became friends and WE lived outside on the grass or driveways for a week, no power, limited water etc. No one went hungry or without care. People shared medications to help those who ran out, beer and food. It didn’t rain and we trusted each-other. I was an EMT basic for one week before that happened, After a few months and things went back to normal I vowed to be prepared. I loved helping my neighbors reclaim their lives, it changed me and
I am happy I went through it. If people pull together cities can be re-built in no time. If they panic and let social media steer once good adultstrong decisions, life can and will bite their butts hard.
I have nothing but pure respect and love for my friends here on IM, be well, be safe and remember how strong a like-minded group can be and has proven to be during the worst times our wonderful and strong UNITED STATES has faced.
DownhillIndirect
DND It is good you explain the virus and situation–I had little training in the medical world–although I early on had ordered some masks. Then I learned my son had also ordered masks–he tells me on the phone his procedure for coming home since he is an ER nurse to even leaving his clothes and shoes in his garage outside his home. It seems hygiene and care are the key to keeping this virus away. Probably you could elaborate on what people need to do to stay safe.
I too have never taken a vaccine except when hospitalized–that for tetanus but of course when you are out there is no telling what you get.
My daughter has been a manager for some years for a big pharmaceutical company–she knows the pharma very well. She does say that the vaccine used for malaria has had some promise and a few have claimed it has broken their fever and set them on the road for recovery.
Mark says it is a cold related virus with something added to the DNA to make it deadly–he suspects that you may not develop an immunity in the sense it could be repeatable like colds are. There are no vaccines for colds as far as I know.
You have had your experience with disaster–and it is during these panic times people revert to that primitive thinking–why so much panic buying. Now will be a time for the feds to offer a solution–that would be a law requiring everyone to take vaccinations–something they are bent over to enforce in schools and the full population. It would not surprise me if people did not demand the vaccination law–If people are made to believe that such a law would insure their survival then, like the patriot act–they will give up their right of choice and offer up their arms and butts to the needle. Not my thing, but then I am not a doctor yet I reserve my right to refuse and choose what I believe is best for me. And if my neighbor believes a vaccination is his essential, then I will even give him a ride to the vaccinator.
Trust your health or your bank account to no one is my way of thinking. So far it has worked–although some damn good doctors did enough to bring me back from the dead. Now I am watching too much unnatural death.
Las Cruces is shutting down with the nation. With now 16 cases known 20 miles from me, there is pandemonium. That has to multiply like wildfire since what I saw there were people without a clue. Hell, I might have it already myself. But I am not in a panic–I do think the groceries and toilet paper will be available–if not the NY times if you crumple it enough will work fine–Here the governor has shut down unnecessary stores, but grocery and gas stations, medical supplies and so forth essential will be open–even restaurants can sell carry out.
Where I am- 24 people have been tested — of these – 18 were ruled-out and negative for COVID-19 with 6 test pending…yet I did visit a YHF guy the week of the Academy at the start of this in the Yavapai Regional in Prescott and over there in Yavapai where I am not now is four- and the mayor gives daily updates in Prescott-
I will travel tomorrow and know more about the “stores” and such-
but for now that is all I got,, Sonny
My brother had to stay home and his wife in San Tan area with their jobs-
https://www.facebook.com/PrescottMayor/videos/251465772678738/
I ate “take-out” at Backburners yesterday and always yummy.
Joy–thanks–I have no idea if testing is available here–I am certain I do not have it since it has been five days since I had picked up Kong, my granddaughter’s dog and now he is converted from apartment life to a dog’s paradise.
Flood yourself with Vitamin C, D and so forth. A bit of research will tell you why. Eighty percent of the people that get Covid-19 are known to not even go to the hospital. Their symptoms range from almost none to mild fever to flu like problems. Those that require hospitalization are in two categories–the elderly with bad immune systems and others with co existing conditions taxing their systems.
Twenty five % of those still recover with good medical treatment.
Despite the fact that it is people with taxed immune systems, when do you hear advice to do things to boost the immune system. For Gods sake flood yourself with extra doses of Vitamin C, Tumeric, Vitimin A, E, B and so forth. Why people do not and why the main media will not mention this is because the Big Pharma profits depend upon their hired doctors saying that these vitamins are a waste of money–not effective. So you believe who you want to, but Jalapeno peppers, Kiwi fruit, Goji Berry, vitamin supplements, green vegies, etc. are all sources of immune enhancers. If you are old and decrepit as I am, then get out the orange juice and vitamin pills–they are to my notion a good defense and at minimum a boost that might save your life.
Now, to shut down the economy by using us old folk as the excuse is about as ignorant as you can get. Since we are the minority and no longer the worker bee, we are the ones to be quarantined, protected and stay at home individuals. We and the sick ones are the 20 percent in danger. That gives no excuse to shut down the entire nation by taking away the economy, so why is this being done. Does Prince Charles know something we do not know? He did say the world economy needs revamping by 2030–meaning what–the destruction of small business on the main and the elevation of even more power and expansion to the huge world Corporate giants? That certainly will be a result of this.
A bit of research of this Covid-19 as given by a Professor Francis Boyle. The good Professor tracked the Sars Virus to a scientific study and paper from the University of North Carolina, a place with a level 3 Bio war virus lab. At this University China funded Sars gain function work involving DNA enhancement on the 209 ten chrome virus for effecient spreading among human population compared to the orther b beta corona virus only useful for offensive bio warfare. He has copies of the studies, including also a Chinese funded Australian study on the same lines. Those papers are from 2015 and 2010 both involving gain functions to the covid virus.
This increased the Sars lethal figure by 10% by one study, 15% by another and the Chinese figure at 17 % increased lethal ability. The Public Health Authority placed it at an 18% increase.
GNAT medical in this study states that the Sars cluster in an April 2016 paper describes the emergence in the University of North Carolina leverl 3 an gain factor on MERS which is Milldle E. Respirotory syndrome like Sars but more dangerous at a 33% fatality rate using gain of function.
Folks these are studies financed and overseen by Chinese Scientists in our own and Australian level 3 Bio War experimental labs.
North Carolina received the Sars cells directly from the storage units of Bio War diseases at Ft. Dietrich This is all documented material–If you can locate the U-Tube presentation by the professor you likely will glean more from it than I can with my limited hearing.
And so this enhanced virus was purchased by China, not stolen and taken right back to Wuhan, China. Of course the documents and information put out by Professor Boyle will never see main media, and likely the presentation and documents will disappear, just as the June 16, 2013 document restricting the GMHS area at the highest level along with the happy fellows burning out along the Shrine road were deleted. .
Don’t buy the WHO shite that this virus came marching out of the wilderness to attack humanity. It came straight out of the Wuhan level 4 Bio War lab–and I will ask my Psychic something I already know–it was no accident no more than the killing of the 19 GMHS was.
For those that do not know Sars is a covid virus and along the lines of Ebola that was patented and lethal yet not as epidemic as the Covid 19. I really think this is just a taste of what these Bio War people can let loose–a minor test to kill a few off. So always keep so 95’s handy and even some eye goggle protection. The eyes are easy entry points for these airborne particles.
DownhillIndirect says
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on March 24, 2020 at 3:54 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> WTKTT,
>>
>> Thanks man. For me I was surprised, now I know.
Just about every time they hold that AWIMA ( Arizona Wildfire Incident Management Academy ) at that Emery Riddle flight school outside Prescott,
something ‘weird’ goes on there and it’s usually followed by a flurry of posts.
This year is/was no different.
When you have a ‘cabal’ of people who think it’s their mission in life to PREVENT other people from openly discussing a National Tragedy… that kind of weird shit is going to continue to continue.
This year’s predictable weirdness ( which kicked off this year’s flurry of posts ) was summarized below in the following two posts…
Robert the Second ( RTS ) commenting on his AWIMA experience this year…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482841
On March 15, 2020 at 5:20 pm, Robert the Seconds ( RTS ) said…
————————————————————————————
The 2020 AZ Wildfire Academy was particularly odd this year…. etc.
————————————————————————————
And Joy commenting on her AWIMA experience this year… and some near run in she had with former PFD Crew 7 Supe Marty Cole ( M.C. )…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482924
On March 18, 2020 at 3:35 pm, Joy A Collura said…
———————————————————————————-
I pulled records and he seems agitated and said he was not even there that day and I am focused to City of Prescott missing file that his long time friend said he M.C. took it home and it was the safety file on crew 7.
———————————————————————————–
>> DND also said…
>>
>> How are you doing?
I’m fine. Thanks for asking.
I live in a very rural area, so the whole ‘social distancing’ thing is simply a way of life for all of us here. No big ‘adjustment’ there.
I feel sorry for the people for whom this is ‘new’.
They are going to have a hard time sustaining it.
>> DND also said…
>>
>> How is everyone doing? We are doing good here and are
>> well prepared. I was raised by blue collar parents and
>> people who always told us to have enough food, water
>> and love to help out our friends and neighbors that may
>> not be prepared for anything that may arise.
Same here.
I was raised by two people with their own ‘medical’ background(s).
My father was a pharmacist’s mate ( medic ) on an LST in World War II.
He was stationed offshore during the D-Day landing… Normandy beach.
When it all went to shit and most of the army medics that went ashore were either already dead or dying… landing craft came around to all the Navy ships staged offshore to collect any and all medical personnel… and they were delivered to the beaches once the Germans finally ran out of ammunition ( which is actually the only real reason the Normandy landing succeeded ).
Dad spent 4 days and nights on Normandy beach doing triage, saving whoever could be saved with limited medical supplies, and making the life-or-death decisions about who they should even bother to load onto gurneys and send offshore for transport back to England.
During those four days there were still the odd strafing runs by some wayward Luftwaffe die-hards, and some occasional shelling from somewhere inland.
When Dad died… the coroner took mom aside and told her that Dad still had some shrapnel embedded in his right leg.. and he wondered why he had never had it removed.
Mom said this was the first she had ever heard about it.
I checked his service records and he never even ever reported he had been wounded. He just patched himself up whenever it happened and kept doing his job, and never told anyone about it.
Based on the coroner’s report and testimony… the Navy sent us a posthumous Purple Heart.
Mom was a lieutenant nurse in the Army during World War II.
She served in the Pacific, on the other side of the world from Dad. They had gotten married before they both shipped overseas in opposite directions.
She ran a Mobile Army Surgical Hospital ( M.A.S.H ) unit there.
( Yes.. she was an early ‘Hotlips Houlihan’ ).
She ( and her unit ) moved around a lot ( obviously ) while the island-hopping gore-fest was going on and her unit received wounded from a lot of the ‘name’ battles… like Guam, Tinian, Peleliu, Anguar, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, etc.
She never talked about it much…. but she told one story about how they once ran out of supplies and the ability to take care of the overwhelming influx of wounded at that time… and all she and her nurses could do for 3 days and nights was just hold young men’s hands as they died.
Only other story she ever told was when she came close to ‘buying it’ herself.
A 12 year old orderly that they thought was a Phillippino turned out to be Japanese and brought a grenade into the surgery tent one day. It killed 3 doctors and some nurses. Mom had just left the tent, moments before, to get some supplies.
So yea… while neither of them ever talked much about the specifics… myself and my brother and sister were raised ( by example ) to do what we can for others, when we can.
I’ve never experienced an earthquake.
Four Hurricanes and a number of close-call tornadoes… but never that kind of ‘ground shaking’. stuff. Sounds BAD.
You obviously know your stuff with regards to infections, and I hope everyone reads your post above. Very informative.
I think you also know that with regards to the current crisis… it is GOING to get WORSE before it even begins to get better.
>> DND also said…
>>
>> I have nothing but pure respect and love for my friends here
>> on IM, be well, be safe and remember how strong a like-minded
>> group can be.
The ‘like-mindedness’ here is ( and always has been ) a desire to SAVE LIVES.
If finding out everything that CAN be ‘known’ about exactly what happened in Yarnell on June 30, 2013 ends up even saving ONE life in the future… it is, of course, all worth it.
WTKTT,
Thank you for sharing a part of your life, family and perseverance. Everyone her is a warrior and I appreciate all views and the drive for truth and commonality. Be well, thank you again.
DownhillIndirect
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on
March 25, 2020 at 5:29 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> WTKTT… Thank you for sharing a part of your life,
>> family and perseverance.
You’re welcome. Right back atcha.
Below is a Yarnell-related question I asked you back at the start of February regarding those “known recordings” ( your words ).
I’m still curious about what your answer might be.
Reply to DownhillIndirect post on February 1, 2020 at 5:37 pm
>> DownhillIndirect ( DND ) said…
>>
>> There are known recordings from FF’s on the YHF that
>> clearly heard an intense argument that finished with
>> accusations and expletives confirming thus was the
>> worst order based upon terrible SA and the inability
>> of EM ( Eric Marsh ) ( to ) process words, visuals
>> and voices.
>>
>> I hope that the audio is played for all as all deserve to know.
Quick question… have you, yourself, heard these ‘recordings’ of the ‘argument’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed?
WTKTT,
I saw a video that was shot from Helms back in 13. It was shot as type six and one type one COP engine sat watching the blow up happen. The guy that sent it did it from a COP computer and all copies were taken or asked to be destroyed. you could hear voices but nothing like what RTS is talking about. I wish I would’ve disregarded the warning of the short video “Being COP property, but, I didn’t, I really regret that. I have had 2 other AZ friends besides RTS tell me they heard and witnessed a video from a personal Ipad in which Jess told Marsh “You really F’d us now” These gentlemen I love as brothers and both have the Contagious Federal fear not to talk or share. I am disgusted with the USFS and how they behave like old-school Gangsters ready to extort money and life from those whom speak up..
I believe that this video exists and is the prrof that Marsh had serious Mental Health issues. I’m not making fun of that but Mental Health issues run rampant in the Federal FAM sector and in the IHC world. It is very dysfunctional and so elite that allot of Firefighter aren’t getting the help because thier bosses don’t want to face it and the big bosses don’t want to really pay for real help outside of EAP. If the IHC world was drug tested like the CDL/DOT regulated Engine crew leaders, their ranks would be decimated. If seasonal FF’s (Federal) were drug tested, there wouldn’t be a seasonal work-force. The Federal government is the only fire agency that doesn’t drug test their seasonal employees or non CDL drivers.
I know this sounds rude or disparaging but it is true. I hope that this Ipad video becomes public as it has been the subject of many conversations in many circles outside of IM even 7 years later. I wish I knew then what I know now. My childhood hero’s became villains that sucks. Old friends can only be reached by their legal teams now and Fire Academies would rather let their programs tank than tell the truth, sad but true. If I get to see this video I promise to make it well shown to all of you, jail time or not, we all deserve to know what was really said.
Mental Health is the elephant that until it’s properly dealt with, we will see more FF fatalities IMO. Sorry WTKTT, I wish I had more for you brother..
DownhillIndirect
Lots of medical people and relatives involved. My son is a RN, his wife also a nurse, his son is close to graduating form NMSU, another nurse–I saw him by chance at the Mountain View Hospital in his outfit a couple weeks ago–I thought he was working there with scrubs on. He said no Grandpa–part of the training I am doing here. I had done a ultra sound there.
I see that nurses at this point are being offered up to 100 per hour and other perks to attract them. I was drafted as a Medic, but I refused and asked for a machine gun–instead given an MOS as a bulldozer operator. Maybe when we are younger we think we know something when we do not–At 24 I was quite adamant to get into action but you soon find that it is about taking orders, not using your own head as to what you think you would be good at.
The medics were real heroes saving lives but little is heard of their work.
I had a nice conversation with Joy and RTS this morning–some difficulties there for RTS to post. It is quite frustrating for someone to write a post then see it disappear into thin air as his have been doing. Whether someone is hacking or it is just the quirks of the system is unknown. Joy did get her site hacked and even was warned about some of her posts.
You would thing people would welcome a man of 30 years experience and his take on things–but to be told not to talk about the Yarnell fire and shunned with his experience and expertise –you could add wisdom in dealing with wild land fires has to have a reason. The asses that ran the Yarnell Fire do not want the truth told despite a number of well experienced wild land fire fighters that area willing to tell it. It is a shame in a democratic society when opinions and facts from the best in the business are not heard.
We are grateful to John Daugherty for his democratic attitude–he is willing to hear all sides, listen and even voice his own opinions without holding back those that might disagree. You can not say that for many of these sites.
The fire fighting community has made heroes out of the worst examples of wild land fire fighting imaginable. Marsh as far as I can determine did commit suicide since he knew he had killed his crew. He left a safe zone to get into a situation that he know would kill him. It was because the alternative to face the horror he created for so many by killing his young crew would be a conscience he would never be haunted with for the rest of his life.
Then you have Donut surviving and as an example of his training–Donut had no clue about wild land fire fighting safety and wild land fire fighting procedures–and I can lay a bet he still does not. He became a hero and even a regular speaker heard by many even in the fire fighting community–why prey tell? But does he tell the truth? Not from what I hear–only a sympathetic story of how he misses his fellow troops and his near death escape. Does he give Frisby credit for saving his dumb ass?-I don’t know but he and his leader Marsh do not qualify as heroes.
And perhaps it is the norm–you do not need to have a clue about safe procedures in wild land fire fighting. Just depend upon your boss and hope he is not another Marsh that was willing to take unnecessary chances with the lives of his subordinates.
Hey we do not know what was going on in Marsh’s personal life. Seems he liked dope occasionally. You know I was a heavy drinker around my first wife–damn she was the type that had ten words to my one. Whew was she a fire cracker–but I kept calm nerves with some poor man’s medication otherwise I should have been on Valium to handle her and her tirades. But that would be no excuse for killing others due to a bad wife. And truth was she was a good woman in her ways–I was just the wrong guy and you know some situations we just do until we get fed up and move on.
But people handle things differently–we have programs written in from so many different directions and starting at child birth and even before. Well the program writers sometimes fuck up–and maybe the Forest Service and Wild Land Fire fighting community has some flaws in the programs that need adjusting. But to deny facts and opinions will only keep the killing system intact.
The Covid-19 may wipe out some of the best in the business. It behooves people to listen to these older and wiser wild land fire fighters–their expertise may be lost. You have wasted your time when you listen to such as Donut or some of those that are obvious liars and presenting false information.
The Truth Sayers are those unseen heroes that will cause lives to be saved and not destroyed by careless actions that disregard the safety and lives of the young men they command.
That should have read Eric Marsh would have had to live with knowing he had killed his crew. He might have even had to face a jury as well. The Fire fighting community involved in this ordeal would have just wanted this to be accepted as they presented it–an unfortunate accident that could happen in any wild land fire fighting episode. Because they presented it that way for various reasons–one not to put any blame on the wild land fire fighting community and the State to keep monetary pay outs as low as possible–but to admit fault also is to say there are some deficiencies and a number of people that are questionable as to their abilities concerning wild land fire fighting.
There are most if not all that know about the Yarnell fire and the Killing of the 19 that also know it was a debacle. There are many that carry information they have kept to themselves or among their cohorts. Yet it is in most of us somewhere, whether from religious training or maybe our upbringing that we ought to tell the truth. It is even more imperative where lives are concerned–that includes the reals reason the 19 are dead as well as the necessity to remedy those causes with solutions to save future lives.
Any psychologist, psychiatrist, doctor or counselor will tell you that to conceal truth–especially in situations concerning the cause of death or concerning the future welfare and safety of others is bound to generate mental as well as physical health issues.
I can tell you it would be wise not to carry knowledge with you to your grave because to do so may even be part of introducing you to your grave. These are not my wisdom–these are valid studies done where it is found that all sorts of malaise can manifest by stuffing information that a person knows rightfully should be told.
I would suggest that Dr. Putnam and others that deal with the mind would advise to get the truth off your chest–even if you had to tell it anonymously on such a site as IM. Writing is one of the best things for relieving tension–especially if a situation is bothering the psyche.
wtktt stated the documented public information about June 30, 2013 and Marty Cole so maybe Marty Cole can use this dysfunctional youtube insert tutorial and see where he was and show us that here.
I tried to make the video be in right position but it was playing with me and I have too much other stuff to focus too—-
at least task complete-
the bad part is that all those hours wasted and I have had hard time uploading it on youtube-
so I am not paying that area anymore attention for today but task was one just YOUTUBE errs and not easy to post here so await a “new” chapter and later retry-
I have too many doctor stuff going on this week
Bottom line, there are just too many watching and too many who watch who have APPS Marty Cole and in that if you can SNIP TOOL by doing this:
(use the most simple APP not the advanced tools alot of us use-
GOOGLE AND GMAIL-
1. go to your smart phone GOOGLE MAPS and there will either be 3 lines (left) or nowadays a circle with your initial (right) then click on YOUR TIMELINE and where it says TODAY, click there and put June 30, 2013 and it will time stamp that day for you. If your smartphone location was off, it is okay because pings are still sent to the “GMAIL” tied to that smartphone through a variety of APPS so just log into the email tied to your cell and on right side click on that circle and hit MANAGE YOUR GOOGLE ACCOUNT than click DATA AND PERSONALIZATION then click LOCATION HISTORY then MANAGE ACTIVITY than in TIMELINE place June 30, 2013 there.
There is other options and ways but I took a fall earlier making the tutorial video so now I am frustrated and going to sleep-
at least I remembered to come back and update this with some details so you know where you ended up June 30, 2013. I also have helped GMHS loved ones in person so they could know where the movement was to help them there. It is a tool and yet it also has helped some heal but for me to share it here, if you say you were not there that day Marty- “SNIP TOOL” and show us…
Your distasteful behavior towards me for a few years all huffy on me because I was asking for records- shit, I also could have perished that day , sir and you are very blessed my father is not alive because if the giant was he would have made sure politics could not play a role in covering up my death or Sonny’s. You are blessed he is not alive because that man was “connected” and he would have helped me every step of the way to ensure truth was out on me and my death. I have a right to pull records. If people would just call and open that communication I would not have had to request records. It was all of you who have behaved strange each Fire Training Season that I keep asking for records and I am ashamed truly WHO became some of these families family advocate- purely disgusting and I hope one of them or their kids when they grow up do pull records and see for themselves. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. Really.
Also keep in mind my style of Forensic Weather is even more advanced than you think – if I can have NOAA and NASA staff members tell me as I train that the knowledge I have intimidates them.
The stores were ridiculous Sonny
they left Chia seeds and took bogus stuff
https://www.healthline.com/nutrition/11-proven-health-benefits-of-chia-seeds#section1
I am floored HOW this is all unfolding
I will be at the doctors each day the rest of this week, Sonny
heading to bed.
Today was too long and well I have a GREAT crew trying to keep me going strong
and no answers yet on amputation dates…keep ya posted.
Alot of manual body manipulation and traction and other stuff where they strap your head up like Hannibal Lecter look 😉
night
DND
I am heading for a day at the doctors
When i get back i will make a YouTube video on something I scheduled to come out in May 2020 but I have to show the world HOW IMPORTANT this article is for the YHF and I told some GMHS loved ones months ago one of the tools so I am ready to show how important as I told Nowicki December 2013 when she asked me what I wanted from this and it was always the cell records. I will be back tonight and anyone who knows making a tutorial is not simple and fast to upload to YouTube but it is now my only focus
Hashtag CAPLES RX in Jay Kurths professional backyard is on pause.
There is a way to learn HOW the day went June 30 2013 Marty Cole and you all are about to learn it.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/technology/2020/03/24/social-distancing-maps-cellphone-location/?outputType=amp
Joy,
As always, thank you. Be well and enjoy the fresh air we all get for a little while…We are pretty rural but the skies look amazing today. Mighty Might.
DownhillIndirect
I just had my phone go off for what I thought would be an amber alert. Instead it is an order to remain in my residence except for emergency reasons only should I leave.
I haven’t checked the increase in COVID-19 but it was doubling in Las Cruces every day. I do not know if these sanctions will help, but certainly they should. If this virus has a 6 day to two week incubation period then it has been hanging around in Las Cruces for at least two weeks before the outbreaks of the cases. That means some of us were getting contaminated when there were no cases reported. Yesterday the count was up to 16, likely 32 today.
We will be paying our last respects to some of our friends. I don’t know very many in Las Cruces–my ex wife is there and another over the mountain near Alamogordo–but then I might be paying my last respects to myself as well. I hope not, but there has been a few Warriors that were in the worst heat of battle to return home and suddenly be killed by the most unexpected way–a car accident, a bar fight or a bad stroke of luck. But a virus turned loose on the public by the China Wuhan Type 4 war disease lab?
Well this one is killing thousands and eventually millions and ringing my Note 9 Samsung phone. Almost like an ominous call from the death angel–stay home or else. Do I need to spread sheep blood over my door posts?
Did China do this to give Trump and company a lesson? China is quite OK with population reduction in their own country–in fact the despots in charge are not at all affected by the reduction and quite likely welcome it. You won’t see the elite suffer from it at all.
In fact the masses are expected to know poverty and sacrifice to the gods of the state. But they also know that the Americans will suffer greatly from this outbreak. It definitely will change the world economic situation.
If you look into the history of China–It had always for thousands of years been a country that maintained isolation–much like Korea is today. They did not want, and still do not want this so called democratic rule.
Certain they have benefited selling junk to the world, but I suspect the attitude of isolation among the elite of the nation is carried on–they must still believe that being an imperialistic nation is not necessarily to their liking or advantage. I do believe they know that China can handle situations such at the planned virus outbreak very easily compared to the Western Civilizations. The message may well be mess with the dragon and you may well get toasted.
Trump is going to produce 2 Trillion Dollars to bring this nation’s economy back to par from what China was able to destroy with only a tiny flu virus code name Covid-19. Prince Charles said we need a new world economy by 2030.
China must have heard him and has now helped greatly toward that goal.
Where do you get 2 trillion and whose pocket is expected to pay for it? Of course Trump will bail out the corporate interests and he will tell you, just as every previous President has said–the corporations are your saviors. They provide the jobs, we must protect them. They should not pay the burden of taxes–you citizens must tighten your belts and provide the taxes to pay these Trillions back–after all you are the main benefactors. I say really?
Truth is if we survive the Two Trillion Dollar debt added to the trillions already owed, your citizen status of going from an over worked, two job necessity to keep up with the Joneses or at least keep somewhat afloat in the American Dream House and life, NOW–you will look at needing a three time job. Corporations will not be paying those bills–the tax paying public will again be burdened.
Where does two trillion come from–it is thin air. Well almost–the Fed Reserve will heat up the printing machines, maybe install some extras. There won’t be time to change the designs. Well, in truth the money will be provided by computers. A number will be typed in by the Fed Reserve World Bankers–Our Government will sign an official IOU document for these sky dollars and promise so much interest. You businesses and people will accept the loans at interest. If your business fails, your collateral will then belong to the Banks and world Financiers. So they will continue to gain more solid wealth for sky money as they have since the Federal Reserve was finagled into effect in 1913.
However, somewhere along the line–and as we see–the more sky money that is pumped into the system, the less the sky money has value–where a dollar from 1913 is now not even a nickle in value. In fact somewhere the masses are going to realize this sky money has no value at all–it is just an invention of world bankers that has provided them the tangible wealth at the bequest of your hard labors–and you labors have only increased to meet the increasing burden laid upon your shoulders.
Now you see why I keep telling folks to get some hard silver and soft gold that you can leave teeth marks on. This sky paper may soon become the invisible asset it truly is.c
I am not hurting.
You are the best. As I think different from your view and have much hope. That’s enough and through God … all things are possible and that’s my hope😇😁
COVID-19 Have you ever noticed when a tragedy occurs that the number 9 and 1 are most often in the mix. Numbers in certain secret societies and in planning their agendas are important to the actions. Secret Societies and covert actions use numbers not only as identifiers but to add force to their act;ions. The Book of Revelation is great on sevens and twelves–numerologists will attach numbers to the letters of the name you use to predict and describe your general character and even things to expect using that name.
Is it a coincidence that 19 wild land fire fighters were killed and that the twin towers came down on the very day of 9-11-2001, and many other tragedies with 19 attached. Is there some unseen force ascribed to this number? Nine is a number that you can multiply any number with then add the resulting digits and the result will always be 9. If you add 9 to any number then sum the digits the sum will always equal the number. For example 2×9==18, 1+8=9 or if you add 9+2=11 then 1+1=2. This 9 is a symbol of finality–it is a symbol of awareness on a global basis–numerology states people with this number have both a very nice amicable side but also a dark side that can go very psychotic in description–a lack of empathy.
So maybe there is something to ponder–we see Presidents and world leaders too often with utter lack of empathy. I would cite Bush and his methods but he is just a small example among all the rascals that entertain the masses with their destructive powers–and too often the masses cheer these leaders on. They are masters at manipulative psychology. I haven’t looked at my neurological count–I hope it does not count to 9.
There has been a question–were there really 19 hijackers during the 911 event or was that just a symbol. We would have to question Bush, Colin, Mrs. Clinton, Silversteen and some CIA operatives in the top echelon to get the answer.
I saw 50some little aliens chasing after me in full military uniform including iron pots to deflect live ammo. Then a silent hovering white light above that blinded you to look at. Was it an illusion or a hologram? It is said that holograms have gotten so well improved that anything you see may well be our tax dollars appearing in another form.
Now the missing time element and explaining myself with walking down a railroad track and having covered twenty miles or so of rough terrain with no memory of that I still can not explain. Was I a sleep walker with an AR-15 in my grasp or was it an alien or a practice Federal Government experimental abduction. This could have been a CIA MKUltra experiment–it was during those times and I was hanging around a few of those secret agents–well ones they did not claim after they had shot an Arab dissident eye out. And yeah–that Green Beret guy I knew would not travel from Southern New Mexico to Denver just to shoot out an Arab eye–Jerry gave a shit less about politics–but he was like any good Green Beret –he would follow orders and no questions asked.
Life is interesting to say the least.
Stay at home time orders of the Governor of NM–6 new cases in this county alone and just 20 miles east of me–glad the winds are westerlies. If Las Cruces has 6 then El Paso and Juarez only 45 miles south of there will be the next kill zone and a big one considering how little there will be available for the residents in the area.
You never know for whom the bell tolls. But, yeah as the Pres says, China is not to blame here. Well I wonder where he gets his information–CIA sources or is it WHO? What, if they are not the source and blame from their Wuhan number 4, then are all these Number 4 Virus factories letting loose? My instincts say that no it is not a bat that carried this unless it flew out of the Wuhan type 4 deadly virus factory. I mean, come on–the only city in all of China with a type 4 virus lab, and the virus breaks out there. This President talks about honesty –but yes, the media backs his statement.
When will these politicians get honest with the people? Do they think we can not handle the truth? They believe most of us are on a first grade level of mind. I have to believe the opposite is true–most of the masses are better educated than the dupes running the country. Most educated folk are prone to honesty, and not in the con game.
And I say,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-483158
Gary
In your long time work history
What was your take with what I have requested and or received from City of Prescott..your old time stopping grounds
Do you think when someone who was long time friends and is a part of Prescott and it’s history and now to share to YHF eyewitness thanking me for doing all I do and explained to me the Steinbrinks…Willis… Tony and another separate Prescott person shares about Marty and a high official shares on Holly and MacLean and Nowicki that I should pull records even if it was gonna target me. Now if something happened to me I gave you the old school investigator a piece more where my path was going behind the scenes
God willing I can start humanizing heroes
These records are costly at times and time consuming yet God assures me to keep presenting the documents
Just wondering how come with a G scale you have how come you never pulled records
I was just a housewife hiker
Just always wondered why so many curious out there lay zip on my FOIA or PRR index logs
Nowicki…what was significant about the Teepee fire?
Just wondering why people want to sift through what I pulled but don’t really themselves pull any..
Nowicki…can you privately or publicly talk about this video you posted and it’s origin details
https://youtu.be/Di2L7Lk_VoA
Joy,
I always say that people should never ask me the question when they don’t really want to know the answer. And right now is the worst time for you to ask me that question because it’s to late for the answer to help you. You should have talked to me before you started down that road instead of Nowicki.
And it wasn’t my pay scale that made a difference in what I did, it was my education, training and experience. I only bring up the pay scale etc. because it adds to my street creds with “them” since they use their positions and corresponding authority to dismiss and ignore anyone who disagrees with them and I like to remind them that I have been where they are with a seat at the table where these things are discussed and unethical decisions are made because of their twisted priorities. I want them to know they can’t bullshit a bullshitter because I know them and what kind of people they are and what they are able to rationalize their behavior in order to justify the decisions they make and the things they do.
And the reason I was interested in what you received is because I thought I might have been wrong because you said you found a lot of answers. But I haven’t been interested in what you actually got or asked to see any of it for a long time now because once you started sharing…I saw that I had been right all along.
And actually…even though you didn’t ask me what I thought you should do and how you should go about it, I told you several times what I thought anyway because I wanted to save you from yourself. But you argued with me and ultimately dismissed and ignored everything I told you since apparently my attempt to impress you with pay scale and former positions that comprised my street creds in that area didn’t work.
Oh…and one more thing. How many times did I tell you that you had no business running an investigation? HAL 9000 could go back and count them if we really needed to know, but we really don’t need to know that at this point because it’s moot since you jumped off the cliff. And ever since then I have just been waiting for you to hit the bottom.
And I deeply regret that it’s happening at the same time that you have apparently received some bad news about your physical condition and medical situation.
Joy,
I doubt that you remember the anecdote that I wrote on this thread a long time ago about my first experience at the highest decision making level in the BLM and my last one.
At my very first one I was told, “Gary…you do good work, but you leave to many bodies on the trail.” And at my very last one i was asked, “What are you going to do now Gary…call 60 Minutes?”
At the very first meeting, I didn’t respond because I didn’t know what to say. But at the last meeting I knew exactly what to say because it was 18 years later.
I replied. “No…I know how the game is played.”
I wish I comprehended what you mean on too late or Nowicki.
I am okay to take criticism
You should know that by now
I just want to truly learn
I look back and it doesn’t make sense
More would gather to keep a lie than just say a fact.
I don’t regret pulling or gathering
I find it sad how early on select ones became family advocates
I have to keep doing what God requires of me even if the crowd is larger for the lie.
Thanks for trying to answer me.
Oh okay. The reason I didn’t do what you have been doing was because I knew it would be a complete and total waste of time and money. And all of us have finite amounts of both time and money on this earth and I choose to waste mine in other ways.
They got rid of the smoking guns a long time ago and even if they hadn’t, they were never going to give them to you voluntarily. And you have been requesting information from them without any way to impose sanctions and penalties on them for not complying with the law.
WTKTT has been really good at telling you how it SHOULD be, but HAL 9000 is only as good as the data he has loaded into his RAM and ROM. I have been really good at telling you how it is. But you listened to him and not to me and now you are paying the price for that decision. Garbage in…garbage out. HAL 9000 could read and correctly interpret the law that codified in statutes what they SHOULD do and how they SHOULD do it, but bad guys don’t follow the law and do what they SHOULD.
The only way to get evidence from bad guys is to go in and take it with a search warrant, or at least the administrative authority to force compliance. You go in with your own computer experts and you take everything and then spend a couple of years sorting through it as time permits while you build your case by deciding what is important and what isn’t. You don’t spend years letting them decide what is important and what isn’t because they won’t give you the important information you are looking for.
But in order to do that..you need authority and I repeatedly told you that the only entity that had that authority and therefore could empower you, was the Great State of Arizona. And they are the bad guys…so they aren’t going to do anything that would allow you or anyone else to build a case against them.
And you may be good at taking criticism, but you are terrible about taking sound advice based on my education, training, experience, knowledge, skills and abilities. You needed a sniper rifle and instead you used a short barreled shotgun. And therefore…you missed the target.
You used a short barreled shotgun at a great distance while they were behind impenetrable cover.
Oh…and one more thing. One of my nicknames used to be, Gary “Let’s Get a Search Warrant” Olson. And there was a really good reason for that. If you are a hammer…everything looks like a nail.
My answer to every problem was, “Let’s get a search warrant” so we can take what we want. Nowicki or somebody taught you how to write FOIA’s that were worded very much like a search warrant. You know…except for the “voluntary” compliance part.
And you also listened to the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history. You didn’t listen to the former Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) who retired while working for the Washington D.C. Office of his agency at the same salary as a GS-15 who had 22 years in federal law enforcement with just about every certification you can think of in order to do the job I was tasked with doing. Why was that? And we are still waiting to hear all about the results from RTS’s federal lawsuit.
And now you know some more reasons why I don’t make friends very easily or keep most of them for very long. I am used to people thinking I am smart right up to the point my recommendations don’t agree with what they think or want to do and then I suddenly turn into one of the dumbest @#$&’s and stupidest @#$&’s that the good Lord ever put on this earth.
Any more questions?
Wait…don’t answer that question because I just figured it out. You listened to the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history instead of me because he told you what you wanted to hear, whereas I told you what you needed to hear.
Oh…and in this case the Great State Of Arizona had two critical co-conspirators as bad guys alongside of them. One was the U.S. Forest Service and the other one was their governmental subsidiary the City Of Prescott.
It’s called Sovereign Immunity (does that sound familiar) and We Have All Of The Power And You Have None. I feel bad that you got run through the bureaucratic meat grinder. I have been there a few times myself and I know how much it hurts.
I dont listen to RTS.
Funny.
Even Sonny can tell ya that and my family and friends
There was one marine friend, a Master Sergeant gunny who headed a gun range training men how to use weapons.
He told me of an incident of an enemy that would appear some distance below them firing a weapon then disappearing behind the trunk of a huge tree. They directed a .50 cal machine gun at the tree and down came the fellow with the tree. They approached his remains and had found he was trying to ward off a well armed platoon with a shotgun. A scattergun is effective at close range–but there are plenty that were caught running from a shotgun that had the buck shot picked out of their back sides and survived. It is very effective however at close range.
I think Gary expresses it right–the infection in the system is at high levels and it is beyond difficult to clean out an infection that is sanctioned by some of the best in the field with credentials and justification to skirt the law sanctioned by those of even higher positions. I mean look at Ollie North and the CIA squad sanctioned by Reagan and wife who was yelling NO TO DRUGS. They were into hauling dope big time and backing some of the worst drug dealers, yet we had our well informed saying No to Drugs. I think Gary has knowledge and smarts about what goes on and how little can be done. Those that attempt from the low levels are the man behind the tree with the single barrel shot gun up against a 50 cal. machine gun.
However, I would posit that a well trained sniper with his trusty Model 70 30-06 can cause much consternation among even a company of men–but he too knows when to retreat, then again re appear to induce more fear.
We have 1356 Bio Labs Level 3 in this country besides the 16 Level 4 labs that include secret facilities involving Military Bio Warfare experiments. Because the President says we are not into Bio Warfare–it is illegal, the more that he stress it, the more then we are into it.
You do not build a state of the art level 4 Bio lab at a cost of above 1.25 Billion to be completed by 2022 and tell me that you are not playing with war time uses and other uses of the earth’s most deadly viruses for the fun of it. The program is in high gear with those kinds of funds and priorities.
Level 3 is bad enough and deals with such killer diseases that can go wild but have some sort of vaccine or cure. But Level 4 stuff is that which is airborne, contagious, and has no vaccine.
Well, perhaps that is what some people think we need and why not put it right there in Manhattan, Kansas right in the center of our Nation. The Wuhan virus escape did a number on the world, so what difference does it make?
Kansas State University had its beginnings in 1863–Civil War Days. It has been a federally sponsored University concerning Diseases almost from its very beginning. It is interesting that many believer the Spanish Flu had its origin right there in Kansas. In fact the first outbreaks were there and attributed to other countries on the theory that a soldier had brought it in from another country.
That flue lasted for 3 solid years and killed in the millions–yet it did not affect the elderly and very young to the degree it did young adults such as the young soldiers going to war–something my Dad mentioned about stacking bodies of dead soldiers on the ship as he went over to face the Germans during WW1.
These war planners are clever. Way back in 1356 the Tartar army was catapulting bodies infested with the black plague into the city of Kaffa along the Crimean Sea as their method of Bio Warfare. Gen Jeffery Amherst of the British Military had his troops delivering Small Pox infested blankets to the Delaware Indians. And of course in 2006 there were the anthrax letters–and WHO knows what other efforts against humanity have been committed by those that Gary clues us about–that sometimes in high places are blind to the laws they claim to uphold. As Ollie and Colin would say–plausible denial or justifiable means.
Sometimes the glimmer of hope we have is in knowing the facts and having a bit of common sense, believing in our instincts instead of what those marvelous and ingenious leaders would tell us. That would be taking responsibility for ourselves rather than depending upon someone else for their expertise and protection. After all, that President thinks his own self preservation is worth more than yours or mine and even his cronies will get the test before you. So best thing is take responsibility for my own protection –that President after all is surrounded by the Corporate entities whose money has put him in office and whose lobbyists are of the wisest of trained psychologists (the brain wash types that know manipulations most of us can not even imagine)-to keep the flow of things in proper Corporate ideological ground. Fuck the citizen–what does he know and what use is he unless he is a consumer–and truly fuck the eater–he is a burden to the system.
That is Corporate thinking–more or less psychotic behaviour–tack on whatever DSM 3, or 4 labels as you like.
Someone mentioned they did not believe in the Carbon thing–and likely they are right. I am on the fence on that one since I know that science is not always true science and government and others can and have used false data to prove out a thing. It is truly an issue to debate–and an issue that some can use to instill more fear into people to gain mass approvals for new laws and enforcement and even taxes to fatten the coffers of those enforcers.
The possibilities are many and the refusal to look at them without consideration leaves one with tunnel vision–and with out peripheral vision you are in danger while hanging in the presence of wolves.
I am much appreciative of Joy and her revelations. I am appalled that so many that have true insider knowledge cower with it knowing that the right and proper thing to do is to lay it on the table. And opinions, let them be in the open and debatable. If you think the lizard mentality of too many in government is crazy–feel good because most agree. But at least have the guts to lay what you believe and facts you know on the table to be discussed. This is what makes the needed changes and improves the system–even is a duty when lives and safety is concerned.
The people that post here know these things and more–I am not a fire fighter. But are the people that keep mum just because their peers might frown their way because they have been exposed justified? Or on the other hand are they afraid their own follies might also be aired?
I would say each has his reason and sometimes it is just plain lethargy. Should not be an excuse when lives are at stake–most significantly the lives of young heroes.
I use other weapons like God’s Word
Ephesians 6:11
I like the leprechaun–God wipes off the whole planet and leaves no prisoners. God has no conscience–well maybe a little-he left a few. So he may be back–or at least his cohorts, since they need to wipe off 7 billion. That is a grizzly chore but the lizards are mind prepared and happy to do the work.
Reality is often stranger than fiction.
RTS STATED AND MY REPLY IN CAPS
Joy,
I noticed that one common theme was the numerous Request Visibility: Unpublished . That means that your numerous, ongoing PFD Public Records Requests (PRR) are hidden from public view, right?
YES SIR
Which means the PFD and COP want to keep all that you have requested a secret, right?
THEY EXPLAINED IT DIFFERENTLY SIR
SEE:
Please note that public record requests are not “sealed”. They are open for public and staff review at any time they are requested. The City just does not mark each and every request as published to the public, unless it is information that is sought on a regular basis by more than one person. We did start off in our electronic system as publishing all requests, but we received many complaints that is was confusing.
If you read it then it means if what I asked for was “sought on a regular basis” by more than one person and my index logs show I am the “only” one who has asked for these type of records so if you are looking to challenge if they will LIFT the UNPUBLISHED than others reading IM could ask for a PRR with same content but it appears more than one or two have to seek it because “regular basis” is used but they are busy people RTS and so I know I explained it yet I would state do not waste your time because I gave you all what I know and did—
Do I think about the content and the world knowing what I asked for?
I am not well enough to figure that out right now
for reals
been a rough day
I am glad this task is completed
Nap time then garage later
———–
help you out? In order to get the COP and PFD to publish your PRRs we need to file our own PRRs for what specifically …? I HOPE THAT ANSWER SATISFIED YOU- GOOD NIGHT
I HAVE BEEN UP SINCE MIDNIGHT
What also helped me get over staph and a bad ass phase of MRSA was using Spartan hepacide quat ii virucidal disinfectant cleaner effective against antibiotic resistant bacteria. Kills slot of bad ass viruses.
So if people are buying into the man made farce…I used this item to rid of MRSA
God Bless you and yours 🙏❣️
A fine man last Summer put this on YouTube for us all
Fire fighting changes should be made Fire Season 2020
Noone should face retirement years at the highest G pay scale this way
https://youtu.be/xMMQBuMiees
Ahhhh…that is really sweet of you! But it isn’t about ME, it’s about providing current and future WF with more than bandannas (that they buy themselves) to wear at least during HOT MOP UP because that’s when they are exposed to the most toxic smoke and could tolerate a respirator the most.
I have never worn an the N95 mask they keep talking about because of COVID-19, but I doubt they are as effective as a respirator? But maybe? They look like they would be harder to breathe through? Respirators work great if you just don’t start breathing to hard and to fast from strenuous exertion. Your breathing has to be at a more or less normal rate and “rhythmic.” Just sayin’
And I doubt N95 masks seal as good as respirators do because the respirators are made from a soft and viable kinda rubber material that seals very tightly and is comfortable to wear fir extended periods especially when WF rotate in and out of the heaviest smoke as DND wrote about earlier.
But once again, I think it is during HOT MOP UP when WF are exposed to the most toxic smoke for the longest time because they are bent over the hot material using their tools and often water either from hose lays or back pack bladder bags with spray nozzles and that creates a lot of highly toxic smoke and particulates to inundate the WF. Respirators can also be worn at other times to protect WF lungs and throats but those times are more hit or miss because of the variations of exertion.
I’m pretty sure the old Payson Hotshots could have worn respirators all of the time because you know…they were SLACKERS!
Ok… try again
You sure it was hot toxic smoke and not women😁
It was both! Can’t live with ‘em, can’t live without ‘em. It’s a classic conundrum.
The 95’s good to 3 microns–the micron sized Covid-19 still works pretty good according to most and it is a very sticky virus looking at all those pegs.
My kid thinks they are essential in any encounter during this ordeal. Well if they work half the time play the odds. The time they work might be the time to save you. Slots pay the house about 11%, Black Jack hovers around 1% if you play proper–house gets it all fast if you do not. Best to stay out of the Casino but if you do you can last longer playing the odds properly. Justify it as paying for fun maybe. But justify the 95 for playing for life.
I do know that these virus can easily enter through the eyes so you do see many of the doctors and nurses wearing full face and body armour. Clothes will bring the virus home with you.
This one prevented a surgery for me–I damn sure won’t show up in an El Paso Hospital for quite a long spell.
But this one is a good lesson to help individuals prepare for the next one which ought to be a real killer.
Prince Charles posted that by 2030 we need a completely new Economic System. Why do these New World Order People that have the puppet strings keep referring to 2030? Are they giving us a date to look forward too–that is the date so many world Scientists say is the tipping point for Climate Change and also the date that overpopulation must be handled or else.
The world is all a stage but we are 95% the extras.
I am THAT KID who asked my teacher in first grade if she would punish me if I didn’t do something and she said oh you are too cute Joy…of course I wouldn’t…ok then I didn’t do my homework 😁
Thanks Joy–wonder if it would help against this virus–it is one thing I am not familiar with. I do know this virus is designed to attack people with diminished immune systems–generally that would be the elderly, although there are younger individuals who have conditions that have put them in this position.
You hear a bunch about vaccines—but who has talked about the immune boosters such as Vitamin C, the E vitamin, D vitamin, and B vitamin,. Turmeric tablets are a given for me during this time–there of course are some things I take such as a glass of orange juice spiked heavily with spirulina and barley grass. I also am a regular on garlic–that stuff not only runs off salesmen, even bacteria avoid it. In a petri dish with garlic, the bad bacteria scatter, have all sorts of maladies themselves and can not multiply yet good bacteria accept it. Some of these old home remedies to boost immune systems, something you can make your own remedies up by a little research on line-something Joy could give expert advice on from real life experience of situations that should have killed her, yet her regimen has made her survive and even thrive.
I will refuse the vaccine on the grounds that my immune system is taxed already. A vaccine actually attacks the system to make it produce the defense mechanisms, but in some folks it will actually cause the body to overkill and thereby destroy the organism. Do not take my advice–listen to that wise doctor that has had 9 years of pharmaceutical training and knows what poisons to kill the virus with. Yes you have to poison the virus and all poisons have their side effects–if you do not believe it, read the side effects–more like effects should be the truth. If you can live with those then good since maybe you have to accept the loss of you liver, libido, kidneys, or whatever in order to live, albeit somewhat depleted. Maybe a depleted life is better than none–I seem to be there right now but sometimes we try to accept the unacceptable.
This is another step forward, much like the 911 gave over citizen rights after all were driven to fear of a few terrorists that the media made into scare tactics that in the final were a big score for the powers and a robbery of the citizen rights. Again, I think now with this test, citizens again in fear will likely accept a law that you need to take vaccinations any time law enforcement says you do. Will they tell you what is in this shit they put in your veins?, it is quite doubtful–many government operations even our own military have preformed secret experiments to see what their medicines will do. It is fairly easy to convince a young soldier to take the medicines but it was not that way when I was drafted. You were ordered to line up and air guns shot medicine into your arms on both sides as you walked through. I had no idea what was in those shots and had no inclination to ask–that would mean 50 push up or as the situation were you called your rifle a gun you would have to run 50 laps around the hooch holding the rifle above your head while yelling this is my rifle then releasing one hand to point at your crouch–this is my gun–My rifle is for war and my gun is for fun.
To my observation, I believe that the vaccines are not only a great reason if not all for the Gulf War Syndrome that I know is for real and not a joke for the young men that suffer from it. Sadly little is said about the ways that might help get over it but doctors have remedies and I have no idea how effective they are. For me I know beside a good shot of Irish triple distilled, a good regimen of vitamins and diet with great avoidance of MacDonalds junk food . And do not think the government health people are above experiments on people. There are plenty of documented cases now FOIA available and posted proof and with today’s high incidence of opaque government and secret black ops anything is possible and if decided will be done with no one the wiser except the perpetrators and the elite asses that demand the tests.
So this virus has put many of the small and medium businesses down–many will be unable to return. Good old Corporate America will become more corporate. Big Corporations will be the norm–many will loose their jobs and whether the Big Corporations will be able to absorb them, I feel that is doubtful. So some of them better stretch that $1200 paper dollar as far as they can. Maybe buy some extra Ramen packs–what I call doper food.
I did buy myself a pack today–shit I think $2.50 for a dozen packs–I went for my mail today and needed to stock up on dog food. I have spoiled my dogs so that they are on strike when I try to feed them dry dog food alone. They will look at it then look at me and I relent and go in and mix in the canned variety. When I return outside they are waiting patiently and have not touched the dry I have already laid before them. Once I put out the mix on top then they all get up and go to their respective bowls. I justify it–they are man’s best friend and a little rebellion against dry food is OK.
I doubt this is a really major catastrophe–more of a test but it will achieve some objectives for the less than 1% ruling the planet and the forces we do not see in our minuscule visual and audio band. How do you think saucers can switch from being seen to not being seen, yet on radar or infrared they are visible. That is proven by the Mexicans being followed and surrounded by orbs for I believe about 30 minutes. Because they were part of the US drug enforcement they had infrared spotting equipment–could see them on their screens. yet when they looked out their cockpits they could not see them. Radar and infrared can see these things, yet our limited vision keeps us blind to things in other frequencies that are there yet out of our sight. I should modify that some–certain people–Psychics for example can see and access other dimensions–they can even see auras that are unseen to most of us. Children are good at it until we download them with limitations and set them in desks with Authorities manufacturing the downloads they have been downloaded with during their tenure in the class room and universities–add to that the religious institutions and other propagandists. It is hard to free yourself from that type bondage since you are in the end convinced it is you and not some damn program that you think is you. Well I should let Dr. Putnam speak to you about that–I know he could but he knows also few would listen.
About the Yarnell incident–fear has most of the people that know things afraid to talk. You can not hold it against them if you understand how the system works–they dare not challenge something when the elite establish it. The King may have no clothes but you dare not say so. You could imagine walking down the Prescott small town streets and the wonderful cronies that have made up the story look at you if you were to spill the beans. They would shun hell out of you and present you as some confused idiot–what does some one call me–a clown. Usually that is a guy that hasn’t looked in the mirror at himself–I hope he is not thinking I am his reflection because he certainly does not reflect. I am not offended–my son Ted used to dress up as a clown but a good one and he did it for charity reasons. So there are good clowns and bad ones that rob banks and do other nefarious works.
In some ways I think I was an Idiot–I do have beyond 9 years of actual college education–that helps qualify one since anyone to handle confinement and garbage for that long is certainly suspect. It is good since I attended many different Universities and even on line ones–but you wise up in time–freedom of thought will never be found there. If fact if you become a Professor or Scientist and free think against accepted ideologies you will wind up just like the educated wild land fire fighter that goes against what the main stream bosses say–you will have to suffer the rejection–likely be fired or black balled if you are working and avoided among your peers if in conference. But in the long run, fuck em–good conscience is well worth the rejection and if you live a life dependent upon awards and strokes then you ought to find some psychological counseling. Life worth living should not be on those terms.
But for the virus–I am using a surgical mask–and today when I went into the Wal mart for the dog food it was crowded with people piling up baskets and shelves about half dry on this end of town Wal Mart–there are three here. But Wal Mart is doing a good job of restocking and they had extra people hired to stocking shelves–so much so that it was hard to get through the isles for the stockers and big carts of goods they were replacing as fast as they could.
Oddly in all this panic, I saw only one other person with a surgical mask. You would have thought Wal Mart would have provided masks for all those workers since even the inside Micky Dees people could only order take out–the tables were roped off. They too did not have masks. With that kind of crowd there had to be a number of cases floating around, yet even the elderly in there were without protection? Well maybe masks are not available–I bought some early on–my son had purchase a bunch–this stuff is very contagious–not wise for me to even go in with a mask–but we should not walk in fear or stupidity–maybe I suffer from the latter with a concern for my fellows at home as justification.
So I do think this is a big ordeal but as the WHO people say–only the beginning and I think a minor one compared to ones to come in this death camp we call earth as controlled by the most brilliant minds in black psychology with unseen control and awareness of the masses of the big picture–where the end game of total control is nearing fruition. The New World Order Bluebloods will say the means justifies their plan. The New World Order is here but its final goals may be much closer than most can imagine. The frogs are gasping for breath already.
I mentioned my product I used (always run it by your own Dr) but in due time you will hear vaccines and the Big Pharma is here for you in the news.
One of those hallelujah moments for the people to get distracted in..
I live because I lean like Gary said from a generation of cave people and do not confirm.
In the next few months you will learn more about the YHF unlike anything that has been shown publicly and in it you will learn heroes are real people and even they have foibles and I will be sharing or some will think I am exposing the human in a hero. Heroes are not invincible. Heroes assume the responsibility and take accountability so we can learn from errors and blunders and mistakes.
I am alive Sonny because when I was told I had a brain tumor in another area we kept pioneering. Yes due to wrong kind of health insurance and the medical wold is truly governed by Big Pharma I opted to look at my family history (most deceased) and their choices and I opted to do a unique path. My recent time at the foia and prr storage area I did find the brain tumor diagnosis page and will scan and include in a future post because that’s a small diagnosis along with so many other areas but maybe that can help naysayers that have said over time I was never diagnosed.
Big Pharma is not my friend Sonny. Old Indian ways are yours and my ways.
You and I don’t need the stores…we got this.
I laid in bed last night thinking Sonny in a few years will be 80 … Wow time flies eh…
https://youtu.be/baVkpul4XoU
This movie reminds me of YHF
In a few months this film will make sense
Confirm is conform
I am already 80 plus–considering the mileage. My car was a decent brand but even those get a worn down with extra miles. But this way you at least cover a lot more ground and see more than a TV set during your life.
We were called Tramp miners. Wild Land Fire Fighters do a hell of a lot more Tramping than the Tramp miner does. A Tramp miner (when travelling it is called Tramping) –just never hung around long enough to grow moss on his back. Either the mines would shut down or he would hear of a better mine and pay up the road and leave the present rat hole perhaps a better situation–that was not always true, but often was. Without a Union–I had never worked Union–the one mine that did have a Union was Fierro, NM mine I worked that went on Strike–I had not joined the Union but those guys that did were off work for 9 months and finally gained a dime an hour on their wages. But a miner does not work for days pay–the days pay people were making something like $5 an hour and I was getting above $9–I always like getting paid for what I did, not for hanging around all day awaiting instructions from some know it all.
I added a new fellow to the tribe here. My grand daughter had moved into an apartment and because her dog did bark too much had either to get rid of the dog or be evicted. He is a beast at a little over a year–true Alpha fellow but took up here like a fly to sugar. Guess that apartment life was not for this guy–he marked these 4 acres in a hurry.
My kid was afraid to deliver him so I went and picked him up. He looks healthy–no corona virus there. Well it has not hit Las Cruces enough yet to have any reports out–people are just going wild here buying up lots of Wal Mart groceries–maybe Albertsons too–and Sprouts for sure. I don’t know if the cemetery plots are bought up, but I can imagine. There is plenty of desert her and mesquites in case I get hit so I am not concerned. I wouldn’t want anyone to have this body–it has too much wear and tear and even loaded with lead. I do believe that science already knows how to use stem cells to create replicas–but we have 7.6 billion and the New World Order wants that reduced by about 7 billion. So your chances of being chosen for repairs or replication are mighty slim unless you happen to be in the approximately .09% that the NWO reptilian gods think they will allow to remain on the planet. Some of us will just have to do with somewhere off in space-or in a cemetery plot-maybe some already are space cases–and in the plots too. Some even of the reptilians are space cases as well.
I know these elite like to be recognized for whom they are–so I have no fears that the black opts will be knocking. However if I get a lightening strike from the chemical sky may the forces be with you.
Bring on the good Joy–It is good to make some squirm–they deserve it for their bushitting ways. That old liar that you recorded at Peoples Valley has had to quit reading these posts–he has heart problems now. Well much of it is not his fault, but a hard heart can be caused by the mind as well as the chemicals.
You have to love the truth–that is what does good and saves lives of these heroes. These asses that flaunt their authority and spread a false gospel deserve the slap in the face–not those back slaps they do to each other even after committing some of the most horrendous crimes. Killing 19 is horrendous, but then few are looking at the reasons they are dead nor presenting solutions to the problem. The tax payer is shafted as well since these disasters that should have never happened had proper saftey procedures been followed and proper hiring techniques used-not utilized, what a stupid word.
So you shoot that shotgun to sting their asses at the idea that they might use a 50 cal, but I think not. There are too many of the good guys in the main wild land fire fighting profession that know that your revelations are the right thing to do –so with that kind of backing you need not fear. However, I can imagine only a Joy type could handle the avoidance and disparagement to character some would attempt.
I hear they already have a vaccine for the virus–Mark phones and says it should be out soon–he is working right in it by being young and somewhat of a health nut, (The Israelis had by coincidence been working on the Covid-19 vaccine since 2016 according to their own words) . What is up with that?–this shit must be the world over in all the Type 4 facilities.
I believe he would be fine even if he gets it. But he wanted to tell me he won’t be able to visit for a very long time. Well I am good with my pooches and the Irish Gods and a little of the triple distilled–a poor man’s solace from the Gods that invented it and the Devils aid to those that over do it.
Close is only good in horseshoes and hand grenades–but that goes for scatter guns sometimes. One or two bb’s is enough to bring down a bird some times. If not it makes em smarter.
I am not in this to make some squirm–just documented truths.
Yes, he is not well. I am sure he stopped reading my stuff because it is not easy; I ramble 😉 right, Gary.
Yes, I love the truth–
Agreed, There are too many of the good guys in the main wild land fire fighting profession that know that my revelations are the right thing to do –Yet I have God so I need not fear.
Yes, it is okay the disparaging Sonny- this is not an easy topic. Some are even comfortable in their grief.
Sonny
Did you just tell the world you got Ramen noodles
Hope your electric fence is working and your dogs are prepared
It may be known as a. Dopers meal but are you aware how many college kids are out of school
Heighten your security,,😁
Yes –I know and they generally are doing the beaches and parties. In truth they do not have much to fear since even if they get it their immune systems will make it a bout of flu or less.
Yeah it is deadly to my age bracket–and yes avoid the crowd here–almost none of the Las Cruces population is wearing protection–but then I have no reason to hob nob there and I think I am excommunicated from all religions–if not I will do that myself. The Irish Gods are enough–maybe too much if they get on my nerves.
I hope you have your surgical masks–I used mine to pick up Kong–he lives up to his name even at a year old. If we get through this one alive, then the next designer virus we will beat the odds again. But the next one will be a real dice roll–this one is not going to take out that big of a percentage. But there may be other methods involved. We live on a dangerous planet infested with war mongers and those that live to kill. It is a world full of hit men that have the means of mass murder on a global basis.
The next order of business is to induce people to have chips embedded along with massive vaccinations. The scare to induce vaccinations is here but what psychology they will use–likely fear again–is up in the air for the chip implants. Some have taken them already–under the guise of children that can be located if abducted or some other persuasion to get them started. Shit, we are in the space age with too many spaced out by TV Media, propaganda and so forth.
The moves have to be gradual–but then they had pretty well cooked the goose with 911. I don’t recommend seat belts–but maybe best on the roller coaster we can expect in the next ten to twenty if some of us last that long.
Hi Gary
The steel case 🐺 wolf brand 6.5 Grendel is only 250 for 1000 rounds
And Who needs stores …right Sonny😁
This cell has new emoticons
🦦👣🇺🇸✝️
I would rather throw rocks at a target than shoot that steel cased dirty Russian @#$& out of one of my Sig rifles. No offense. Plus…I don’t want to help feed the Russia Oligarch machine.
Wait….25 cents per round? Do you have to go to Russia to pick it up?
No it’s twenty two shipping
J and G in Prescott has it
Online dealers have it
Belgium powder not Russian especially for that round
Hollow tip under the jacket so when it hits ..bends then bullet tumbles and your done…one shot knock down..posion bullet.
Well…this is 31 cents per round, but still?
https://ammo.com/rifle/6.5mm-grendel-ammo#wolf-6-5-grendel-ammo-500-rounds-100-grain-fmj-6-5-grendel-ammunition-from-wolf
Maybe I need to lower my standards and maybe Russian Oligarchs aren’t really that bad? President Trump really likes them.
I like to shoot Lake City bulk military ammo by Federal…but all of that starts at about $1.00 per round for the bigger calibers. So…
And since I don’t reload, the Berdan primers and steel cases don’t bother me THAT much. Once again…Joy nails it. When am I goin’ to learn not to argue with Joy?
Of course you get Federal…m193 is better than m855 because the m193 breaks into 3 pieces not like the green tip which punches a small hole thru your body
I will keep with Grendel 6.5
Twice the weight of your m193 and tumbles after five inches.
Goes in small then comes out big. 🌃 night.
Don’t know much about guns and shootin. But ammo is not cheap and according to Mark, there is a shortage with people loading up during this virus crisis. That virus is cranking up sales in every direction.
For survival, that little .22 round is the top runner Using a single shot will perfect your abilities. I still hunt rabbits with a single. Despite people saying it is not a good deer round–it is not in the hands of a novice but quite debatable from my past survival experiences.
I do think it depends upon the individual. The military knows that generally the best snipers are those of a country boy hunter type. He is already trained somewhat and has instincts that are gained only by experience. My kids would have no clue–their Mom chose the city life over the country ways. Nothing wrong there–once people are convinced that city life is the only way, then those city life survival skills will take precedent. Carry a thick Bible–held over the heart they can stop most of the lighter caliber rounds. They scare hell out of some of the dopers as well.
Request #20-194
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
—————————
You asked me to DEFINE the records still that I am requesting-
I took the time to say it is just too large of a scope yet I did show what was pending, appeals, archival, etc and then I got CLOSED for the request #20-190
attached the request again- I want it to be reviewed from someone higher than PRR area before I send the requests to the Arizona State Ombudsman and Arizona State Archives so am I to assume that by you closing that case #20-190- I can forward all the areas I appeal? and that I am being “denied” such records.
It is obvious some areas were illegally redacted on one request so you must know you have the records so to state you do not have the records would be false because some areas of the appeal was areas of improper redactions and that was a long list there to be fixed-
“Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 3:28pm”
Read less
Request 20-190 – appeal.pdf
—————–
Received
March 4, 2020 via web
——————
Departments
Legal Department
——————-
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
———————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
March 4, 2020, 3:49pm
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Legal Department.
March 4, 2020, 4:52pm
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 4:53pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=======================
Joy;s extremely trying and frustrating attempts to get FOI’A reports is extremly trying just to witness her documentation of those efforts. This I find to be common with government that obviously does not want accountability from public exposure. They on the other hand would want the secrecy. But in a free society and democracy, it is first and foremost the necessity to open book all public operations that do not directly impinge upon National Security. If we have no access to their handling of public affairs then we have ascribed to Totalitarian government–something of course much instigated by the Bush Dynasty and followed by Obama. Obama actually promised to make government affairs transparent but as every President has done, became another liar to the people and lover of the very powers that got him in office. A dog is servant to the owner that provides the bones–Corporations have the public thinking they count by propaganda and the fools run to the polls believing they really make a difference.
I can say if such hero as Jesse Ventura ran for President, I would cast a vote. Reading Joy,s documentation of her frustrations to get transparency and the lawful right of citizen to public informant by FOIA is just as most government entities act. She is almost treated as an enemy of the State for wanting to know what is going on and the facts.
The Wiki Leaks guy was a true hero by exposing all the chicanery going on behind the scenes. They wanted to call him an enemy of the state and a murderer for exposing these heads of states of doing all kinds of illegal acts to cause the murders of thousands of our own young men and the millions of innocent people including women and children at the hands of these Corporate owned politicians. Just as Trump said we will be coming right out of Afghanistan, then right away proved his true colors by sending more troops into a dead end situation–he too would destroy anyone that might leak information and did leak it of his own nefarious doings.
If you can get a copy of Jesse Ventura’s 63 DOCUMENTS THE GOVERNMENT DOES NOT WANT YOU TO READ–you will understand how a Navy Seal and past Governor of Minnesota could win and election and did win an election without the Billionaire or crony status to get himself in office. I was living in Minnesota at the time and I remember him saying “I think a drunken Irishman laid out the streets of St. Paul” and getting flack. I laughed since I had the same thought–it sure couln’t have been a sober one. St Paul is really an extension of Minneapolis for those that have not been there and is predominantly Irish. You can still go in and have a Guiness and hear the crowd speaking with heavy Irish Brogue and dancing and music just as you would see in Ireland. There are even a few IRA fellows hanging around there as well.
So hell yes, I would vote for an honest man though I would worry he would some how receive the assassination bullet as the Kennedy men did. Those 63 public records even include the CIA’s secret assassination manual–something few of us might have known actually is now a FOIA document available for public scrutiny. I think is would be outdated these days since they assassinated just about every South American Dictator there was that did not follow the US agenda at the time. Besides by now the technology has been updated and as you saw Trump pull off his assassination of an Iranian Politician, he does not even bother to use the CIA. Shit they by now have replaced that political enemy with another and a dozen more standing in line to follow the replacement. Common Sense leaves people on the golf courses when oil talk and money talk are the key subjects.
Jesse, being the good citizen but wise hero knows and tells it like it is. I think he knows it is too late–to much power for the small Injun. But it would be nice to see some decency on the smaller levels of Government–namely our fire fighting gods. Stay in there JD–our only hope for true news–a rare and treasured item–it got Trump elected so he is clever.
Any how it is Corona Virus shut down and I see there are California laws to hold them hostage in their homes. I suppose the homeless will be gathered into cells and treated to paper masks and those good old homeless meals. Give me Taco Bell Lord–I have tried those-oh oh.
Sonny
City of Prescott is considered a Public Records Request (PRR) not Freedom of Information Act (FOIA)
I did a similar scope to Cottonwood on a request with same topic and they were right on it and organized and did not have a set person to do PRRs and it was now HOW I can properly show the Arizona State Ombudsman there is something wrong when they silly dally to finish my August 2018 request but work on and complete so many requests in recent times. I am not prior resident Jeanne Warren who won her case on public records against a government entity where she was there every day annoying the staff. I have been good to the city of Prescott. Someone said let them catch up first before giving new ones but then I ruin my time stamp flow when others reach me. I want a public time stamp when incoming happens so when you see Marty Cole then the public is aware when Marty’s long time friend alerted me and I pulled it. Every person I pulled on was to learn their behavior and mannerisms towards the fire and the men. I give much credit to Wtkkt and Idaho person and RTS for correcting me on punctuations, retired sheriff, probation officer, Jerry T and his pure account and most of all to Nowicki because before her I would neve r take the time to do that because it seemed INVASIVE yet I had to LEARN it was just a tool to put together a puzzle Sonny and I saw June 30 2013 which does not match the SAIT SAIR or the books or movies.
I have not done a thing wrong when it comes to living life
Sonny and I enjoyed messing with the i40 patrol officers when they pulled his van over…we have had such experiences since that first time trailing… nowadays my world has been health and train and conferences
I am not regimen nor is Sonny.
I know if I got a ride to Sonny’s…we know how to live off the land…here in Congress it is all about in the moment and no back up water or food because I spent that time with Sonny but if I am near RTS I grew lazy and grew comfortable in splitting a meal. I would have concern more for AI9000 than and IM human men or ladies because they made this a public pandemic and I think it’s a farce when you look at HOW MANY die annually of other viruses.
They are making this become an economic concern later on. I rather be back in the caves with Sonny then this global B’s and look at gabbert and his site that they planned for all this pandemic since 2010. Oh ok. How many got the crud in wf camp…too many..yet they have the resources to stop or slow down a pandemic… ugh
Yes I did give my son a lecture–he brought out some food in a sack and looked at my grocery stack and said Dad you need to stay home and you need supplies. I had to tell him that I have plenty beans, rice and a wide open desert with good rains now there is plenty meat and plants besides the five gallons of Mesquite Beans I have already stored–something those Indians still use but one of the best sugar and vitamin sources the desert provides. There is plenty of rabbit meat and if it comes to making pemican we will make do.
Franklin Delano Roosevelt said the only thing to fear is fear itself. A good statement since he was a rascal as well and used that fear factor to scare hell out of the masses and create fear with the false flag he allowed when more than two thousand of our young heroes were killed during that event. He saw the sacrifice of old battle ships and young soldiers a good way to create anger, a byproduct of fear to get us into war. Well he had to do something since he had gotten elected on the premise that no more wars for America on foreign soils after the Great War to end all wars–WW1. Every President since has followed his example of late Bush 2 sacrificing over 2000 at the Twin Towers to get after the Iraqis —I mean a few thousand to these Presidential Wonders is justifiable in their minds and the follow up of the deaths of more of our young heroes that go to war without thought believing that killing those camel jockies by the millions is just what they ought to do to protect America.
In truth we have only created more hate Americans and killing that recent so called leader of terrorists by Trump was only an act of bravado to make him look like he is defending America. It is some diversion from his impeachment problems and perhaps some justification in the minds of Americans for his opposite stance of now adding troops to a situation he said he was assuring us of instead removing troops from Afghanistan, etc.
There is big money in these War efforts–It is also the big Banking and Oil Magnates beside the War production needs in just about every American Industry this economy is based upon. These wars make Trump look good, the economy healthy and the Magnate few that truly are the Puppeteers are indeed getting fatter prepared off shore for the next plan.
It is now a Big Pharma thing–advise your kids to get into the health care industry. The fellows predicting more pandemics are medical people–generally Doctors that work with these WHO organizations. Why do you think we need a 1.25 billion dollar Type 4 deadly germ facility when we already have 16 of these Type 4 facilities in America and a tiny Island of England, our good ally had 9 of the same that China says it has only one at Wuhan? I think common sense if it hit most people in the face like a brick would not be had.
But this site is not about world affairs although there are so many similarities about what goes on in the general world of government and its methods of creating and using fear to control situations or facilitate their control mechanisms Y0u damn sure see that into what should be a benign situation of wild land fire fighting and transparency that should be a given and freedom of public records, instead treated as if it were a top secret situation absolutely to be kept out of public scrutiny. Fear of loss of job, fear of peers with bigger G-strings, fear of authorities in the cronie system and fear of rejection at these high dollar bull shit sessions, and so on. These are real fears, people have families to support, careers they want to maintain and work they mostly love and want to advance within. The fears are real–justifiable to keep the truth until their death beds –only they must answer that.
Joy. what you posted–always interesting and a fire to the feet of the undercover crowd of Yarnell death Investigators and undercover wild fire cops that continue to play the lie. They and their cronies that they are in bed with are afraid to peep out from under their blankets when you appear or post. I can understand since you have turned some of the fear they have created among their subordinates back at them. Now they have the corona virus to add to their fears so some must putting trust in those thin fire blankets. I like it when you add fire to their feet. They deserve it.
Some of these crows after all might begin to squawk and that in itself is about all we will get unless you tie them to a Congressional hearing. But when some of you Prescott elite are part of the cronies that created all this Public Dance of Bullshit, please do not hold your breath that any amount of them will come clean. Bullshit is sticky and it sticks to your boots and despite a young cowboy I saw rubbing some on his nice Stetson so his mom would know he was doing real wrangling, it is not a cowboy”s delight. It still has a nasty smell and a bad taste–No one I know likes following the cattle truck.
So I am not going crazy–but some sad to see the traps some people have.
And Joy, they have the cures –shit there has been billions developing these diseases–do you really believe they would turn them loose without a cure? If Trump or the Korean Leader get sick they will be OK–likely they already have their immunity shots–just like the Iraq soldiers did when sent to Iraq. But all vaccines have side effects–well really medicines do not have side effects–they are instead effects as you saw now that our young soldiers returned with what is called the Gulf War Syndrome. It is real and those effects from the many injections are real–I see these guys every time I visit the VA clinic–there are over 250 thousand now suffering after protecting the Bush-Cheny, etc. interests (well our so called need for oil) stupidity.
Shakespeare and his saying that the world is all a Stage and we are the actors could never be more true than these days. The directors in charge don’t give a shit about the actors–there are just too many of them and some are in their way.
Take care, smile and look your best–you are on camera.
Well I planted enough fruit trees that if the feds don’t kill them with their chem trails or mistake them for marijuana bushes then I should have plenty of peaches, apricots, apples and cherries. I need to do some canning and bought the fruit jars to do so. With home canning you do know what you have–with store bought, much of it made in China or Mexico, etc. you do not know the chemical additives–in China it might be added without anyone knowing. And maybe China is like our Corporations–when they could not by law sell the cyclamate concoctions in cola dirinks in the US, those products were sold to the Mexicans. These corporations are world entities–and now anything from MacDonalds to Papa Johns Pizza can be had even in India. Same with Pharmaceuticals–for instance Johnson and Johnson makes much of theirs right across the border with the Ford factories. Labor is cheap there in the Maquiladores–a pill can be made for 3 cents where here with labor, taxes and so forth it would cost them a dime. That difference is big money when they pump these out by the ton and a 3 cent pill can be worth a hundred a pill.d Well if the World Order Bush and other Blue Bloods have their way, America will adjust downward so that the Mexican and American will balance out so that everybody can produce them for 3 cents or even less. It is about profit margin, and these international corporations, despite their propaganda and sometimes altruistic fronts give a shit less whether we are patriotic or not. Well they do actually–they want the borders to come down so that governments merge into what these many Presidents keep talking about–The New World Order. These people that say this are not Patriots, they instead are intent on selling our Nation down the tube and dissolving the Sovereignty of the nations. On a true level they would be Traitors–for certain in earlier times–now they are futurists. Political polite talk to the extreme.
Cast your vote–I will not–there needs to be change in government–As Jesse Ventura wrote do not start the revolution without me. Of course he does not advocate a violent revolution–but one where a Ron Paul or a man such as himself will intervene in the two party system that is actually a one party system. There is no hope for an honest man that represents the people–but the revolution would be if a Jesse Ventura would step up and the American Public would vote both the Republican and Democrat out of existence, as well as remove the Corporate Lobbies. If you knew Ventura as Govenor, he would not allow Corporate Lobbyists of any kind to visit his office.
So the crony system is embedded so that we are now a Corporate owned and run nation. Will it change–elect another Corporate financed billionaire and see.
Will Corporate owned Media give any significant news–well they can not avoid the Corona Virus–but the next is some jerk that shoots up Hollywood or the down town Mall. Or maybe another Movie Star or Football Hero shoots somebody and then is a news item for months and even years. We have murders here in the local paper–they are fairly common in the states–National newsworthy because you are a star. Shit no. A murder is a murder.
Well I am an optimistic pessimist since I think things will not improve until there is a tipping point–but that might be hard to predict with the nefarious players involved with power, control, and greed the generating factors.
Request #20-190
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
—————-
APPEAL
Request #20-39
March 3, 2020, 6:55pm by the requester
Any areas I have asked and appealed-
after my fire season 2020 I will be saving as PDF and forwarding to the State Ombudsman as well as Arizona State Archives to alert them of the situation(s) in regards to the historic must preserve any areas in regards to GMHS and GMIHC and Granite Mountain Hotshots and Crew 7 and Yarnell Hill Fire if they are not rectified by end of Spring 2020 / start of Summer 2020.
I think all those areas should be reviewed “before” doing and looking at any other of my requests.
Best Regards.
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Received
March 3, 2020 via web
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
March 3, 2020, 7:01pm
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External Message Requester + Staff
I also want “receipt” of the IT person (full name) who stated there is nothing to comply to my request.
March 3, 2020, 7:03pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
What public record document are you requesting?
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 8:42am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
On this request- there is multiple open and closed requests tied to my name with many public records that I would be here all day looking at what is still pending especially the release of Request # 18-541 done inappropriately and I bullet list a long list of items needing further assistance to provide me the records and as well notification the ones in that request were notified for failure to redact their personal information especially on Nowicki. I know she would be very upset her stuff is not redacted on contact information.
I have already turned over to the State Archives and Ombudsman back in January on this request and notified you January 18, 2020, 8:55am: Request #18-787 ( November 2, 2018, 12:47pm) – still nothing yet there.
I am short on time but let me peak at the requests: #18-541 which was closed then reopened: the list is too large of a scope and is currently itemized in such request’s communication thread of what still needs to be completed on the public records missing or needing attention. Paid: $6.50 on 01/09/20 but received “incomplete” attachments and request waive of fees for any additional emailed or mailed to me in regards to this area.
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I appealed this number Request #18-697(October 3, 2018, 11:32am) and it was a second review with no data and I would like from this request more than just that-
from that request;
I, Joy A. Collura, would like to “Appeal” the closing of this request.
Annual “Performance Evaluations” should fall into the category of “Reasonable Indication of Disciplinary Actions” –
Actual “Disciplinary Actions” against public employees end up with their own ‘paper trail’
THAT is what the law does say – we have a “reasonable right” to know about.
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My 2016 PRR stated you all were STILL in SEARCH mode on the GMHS / Crew 7 Alumni List and it has been shown much redactions throughout recent requests so that needs “attention”- it now shows areas of “alumni” being redacted and that means some where there is a list of Alumni if I am getting areas redacted.
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Request #19-297 ( April 5, 2019, 11:38am )- I am appealing the Alumni list.and other stuff- Crew Time Reports, Fire Time Reports, Resource Orders, etc.
Read Original and all communications we have had on this request.
this is in my opinion a pending “large scope” open request as well.
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Appeal and Needs Further Attention: Request #19-504 (June 7, 2019, 9:54am), Request #19-928(October 15, 2019, 11:07pm),Request #20-14(January 7, 2020, 12:54pm),Request #20-15(January 7, 2020, 1:08pm),Request #20-17(January 8, 2020, 9:17am),Request #20-32(January 13, 2020, 2:34pm), Request #20-35(January 13, 2020, 2:34pm),Request #20-39(January 14, 2020, 11:22am),Request #20-129(February 7, 2020, 8:18pm),
Areas That Can Be Archived:
Request #20-43, Request #20-46
Request #17-427 (December 26, 2017, 1:41pm)
Request #18-363 (May 29, 2018, 5:27pm)
Request #19-261 (March 27, 2019, 7:36am)
Request #19-75 (November 2, 2018, 12:47pm)
Request #18-694 (October 2, 2018, 10:42pm)
Request #19-510(June 10, 2019, 11:22am)
Request #19-726(August 14, 2019, 11:13am)
Request #20-37(January 14, 2020, 9:55am)
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OPEN REQUEST JUST IN PROCESS MODE STILL:
Request #19-1070(December 5, 2019, 10:24am)($375.00 paid online
January 29, 2020, 9:24am)(large scope)
Request #19-1069(December 4, 2019, 8:34pm)
Request #19-437 (May 18, 2019, 11:29am)
Request #19-538 (June 20, 2019, 6:55am)
Request #19-438 (May 18, 2019, 11:38am)
Request #19-725 (August 14, 2019, 11:11am)
Request #20-28 (January 11, 2020, 2:25pm)
Request #20-29(January 11, 2020, 2:42pm)
Request #20-36(January 14, 2020, 9:53am)
Request #20-38(January 14, 2020, 10:39am)
Request #20-40(January 14, 2020, 1:46pm)
Request #20-47 (January 15, 2020, 10:26pm)
Request #20-48(January 16, 2020, 9:53am)
Request #20-56(January 17, 2020, 12:29pm)
Request #20-61(January 18, 2020, 8:31am)
Request #20-62 (January 18, 2020, 9:18am)
Request #20-63(January 18, 2020, 12:24pm)
Request #20-85(January 25, 2020, 7:03pm)
Request #20-86(January 25, 2020, 7:57pm)
Request #20-87(January 25, 2020, 9:34pm)
Request #20-88(January 25, 2020, 11:13pm)
Request #20-103(January 25, 2020, 11:13pm)
Request #20-189(March 3, 2020, 6:13pm)
Request #20-190(March 3, 2020, 7:01pm)
I just saw the time-
ran out of time but there is plenty of information to be helpful above-
Have a beautiful day
Best Regards, Joy A Collura
March 4, 2020, 12:59pm by the requester
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Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 3:28pm
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External Message Requester + Staff
Are you closing this APPEALS page?
May I send this to the Arizona State Ombudsman that you are refusing all the content of the PUBLIC RECORDS within this APPEALS?
March 4, 2020, 3:39pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
By May 2020 any areas I appealed will be all forwarded to the Ombudsman
this request was closed but should be a reference point of all areas pending as well
March 20, 2020, 12:53pm by the requester
17 days ago…
Request #20-189
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
APPEAL THIS CLOSED REQUEST
ORIGINAL REQUEST:
I would like all records “Elizabeth Nowicki” received to date from the City of Prescott along with her original requests for public records.
I also want the document that you notified her formally that in my public records 18-541 her private information was not redacted as well as the others I document in that request and that they were notified; I want that for my records.
non-commercial purpose with electronic return.
No rush. I know I have numerous open requests and one closed requests I challenge to be re-opened.
Received
January 13, 2020 via web
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Received
March 3, 2020 via web
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Departments
City Clerk, Fire Department, Legal Department
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
March 3, 2020, 6:13pm
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Department Assignment Public
Added: City Clerk, Legal Department.
March 4, 2020, 8:17am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 8:21am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
March 19, 2020, 9:39am
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WHY DO THEY KEEP CLOSING MY NOWICKI REQUESTS??? WHO IS NOWICKI THAT THEY JUST CLOSE MY REQUESTS BUT NEVER GIVE ME THE DOCUMENTS…HMMMM
43 days ago…
Request #20-129
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
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I would like all records “Elizabeth Nowicki” received to date from the City of Prescott along with her original requests for public records.
I also want the document that you notified her formally that in my public records 18-541 her private information was not redacted as well as the others I document in that request and that they were notified; I want that for my records.
non-commercial purpose with electronic return.
No rush. I know I have numerous open requests and one closed requests I challenge to be re-opened.
Received
January 13, 2020 via web
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Request #20-32
CLOSED
NEW REQUEST- same thing
Yarnell Hill Fire is Permanent Records-
There is no retention schedule for a permanent record. If you destroyed such records, I want the transfer index log showing such with dates and what was destroyed.
Thank You.
Best Regards.
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Received
February 7, 2020 via web
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Departments
Fire Department, Legal Department
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Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
February 7, 2020, 8:18pm
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Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
February 10, 2020, 9:06am
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, Legal Department.
February 10, 2020, 9:06am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Your legal department is stating they did not preserve the emails tied to Yarnell Hill Fire in regards to a PRR from Nowicki- is that correct?
The AFUE request she made- is that correct?
I just want to make sure before I file this-
You are also stating it is the second time you closed this same request for same reason and you did a reasonable search?
Best Regards,
Joy
February 12, 2020, 6:23pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Appeal this request.
March 4, 2020, 1:07pm by the requester
53 days ago….
Did you really think I was going to apply for a job at station 71 at almost 50??? right…I wondered how many of you guessed the redacted below- here is your answer 😉
Request #20-103
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
All documents and records on the vehicle(s) and the staff that drove those vehicle(s) and all staff from Station 71 involved with:
Date: June 30 2013
Location: Yarnell Hill Fire
Working and or Not and Just Present Using Engine Stationed in Yarnell June 30 2013
Travel Logs, Resource Orders, Mutual Aid, Under Table Agreements, E Number, and all records… including any red card certifications or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records…Crew Time Report (CTR) – SF261 and, Fire Time Report (FTR) – OF 288 and, the Fire IQCS Master Record
The same records for same date June 30 2013 (Travel Logs, Resource Orders, Mutual Aid, Under Table Agreements, E Number, and all records… including any red card certifications or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records…Crew Time Report (CTR) – SF261 and, Fire Time Report (FTR) – OF 288 and, the Fire IQCS Master Record) for Scott Luderman.
closed Request #18-787
I challenge this request being closed.
Requesting as well any communications to and from the Arizona State Ombudsman to CITY OF PRESCOTT records dealing with any of my requests especially this one closed 17-787
Non-commercial- either in person appointed inspection of records and take my own notes or electronically as we have been doing. thank you, Joy
Read less
Request 18-787 – NextRequest.pdf
Request 20-103 – NextRequest – Modern FOIA & Public Records Request Software.pdf
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Received
January 28, 2020 via web
————-
Departments
Fire Department
————–
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 28, 2020, 6:11pm
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External Message Requester + Staff
the wrong file attached – try again
January 28, 2020, 6:13pm by the requester
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 29, 2020, 9:15am
————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 29, 2020, 9:27am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
56 days ago…
Request #20-88
In one of my PRRs to YCSO – they reported their storage area had a fire.
Would your Fire Dept(s) have a record and or records of that storage area location having such a fire in the past five years?
(37) Sent _ [email protected] _ ProtonMail.pdf
YCSO notification number two.pdf
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Received
January 25, 2020 via web
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Departments
Fire Department
———————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 25, 2020, 11:13pm
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 27, 2020, 9:32am
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please provide the address of the facility and a narrower date range to enable a successful record search.
Thank you.
January 27, 2020, 10:17am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
the area YCSO states is one of their PRR storage areas between years 2013-2018
January 27, 2020, 6:57pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
How would I know where the location is for the records if there is more than one – the City of Prescott would know before me who lives in Congress.
Just state YCSO Records / Storage location with FIRE.
January 27, 2020, 6:59pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I cannot search Fire’s records without being provided an address. I’ll need an address before I can perform a search as your requested date specification is too board. We cannot perform searches based on business names.
Thank you.
January 30, 2020, 2:22pm by Jaimie Sventek, Business Manager (Staff)-
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External Message Requester + Staff
I will email Dwight right now and or one of the YCSO PRR folks and have them identify it to me- keep ya posted.
January 30, 2020, 2:31pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
I provided the email I sent to YCSO Records and await their reply.
Thank you
Best Regards.
January 30, 2020, 2:44pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Still no reply from YCSO- maybe you can add their department to this request or are they County?
March 4, 2020, 1:05pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office is not directly related to the City of Prescott.
Thank you.
March 4, 2020, 2:40pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
Wednesday, March 4, 2020 3:32 PM
[email protected]
Notified them again about our PRR request (attached email)
March 4, 2020, 3:37pm by the requester
56 days ago…
Request #20-87
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
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Non Commercial Purpose
Electronic Return
Records Requested:
1. FEMA State Agreements for Fire Management Assistance Grant Program with City of Prescott and or any of their Fire Departments and or including Granite Mountain Hotshots.
2. Cost Appointment Agreement Records with City of Prescott and or any of their Fire Departments and or including Granite Mountain Hotshots.
3. Limited Delegation of Authority Records
4. Brian Lauber records with any delegation of authority with the CITY OF PRESCOTT and any Fire Dept and or GMHS .
5. Preliminary Cost-Share Agreements with the City of Prescott and or any of their Fire Departments and or including Granite Mountain Hotshots.
6.January 2004 Joint Powers Agreement and or KR-04-0001-LNR-FIR and or Alan Quan
7. Arizona State Land Department Fire Management Division Cooperative Intergovernmental agreement.
8. Horshoe 2 ( May- June 2011) Crew Evaluations for GMHS crew / Eric Mash and or Eric Marsh
9. FEMA Indian Fire (2004) Executive Summary
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Received
January 25, 2020 via web
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Departments
City Clerk, Fire Department
———————-
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 25, 2020, 9:34pm
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:08pm by the requester
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Department Assignment Public
Added: City Clerk, Fire Department.
January 27, 2020, 9:31am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 27, 2020, 9:31am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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56 days ago…
Request #20-86
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
——————–
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
All email or communications with the names:
Eric Shane Marsh / Eric Marsh / Eric Mash for April 2013, and May 2013, and June 2013
I have noticed in some records his name is misspelled (attached)
IMG_0036.JPG
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Received
January 25, 2020 via web
———————
Departments
Fire Department, IT
——————–
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 25, 2020, 7:57pm
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:09pm by the requester
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 27, 2020, 9:30am
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 27, 2020, 9:31am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Opened this 56 days ago…
Request #20-85
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
———————–
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
All email or communications with the names:
Patti Crouse and or Marlin Dale Kuykendall / Marlin Kuykendall / Kookie / any misspelling of his first and or last name and or Dana De Long tied to Yarnell Hill Fire and or Granite Mountains Hotshots and any other slang to such name like Crew 7 and or GMHIC / GMIHC and or Elizabeth Nowicki .
Date Range Provided: 2013- to present.
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Received
January 25, 2020 via web
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Departments
Fire Department, IT
—————————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 25, 2020, 7:03pm
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:08pm by the requester
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 27, 2020, 9:29am
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 27, 2020, 9:30am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
IT has reviewed your request. They report back stating they cannot predict any misspellings as you have stated in your request. IT can run a search for the names provided, but will not be able to surmise misspellings. We will need you to request exactly what you want without any room for guessing on our part.
We can just run the request as is without the portion “any misspellings”. Please let us know if we may proceed as proposed.
Thanks.
January 28, 2020, 2:36pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please also provided a date range for the search.
Thanks again.
January 28, 2020, 2:37pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Please also provided a date range for the search. 2013 to present
IT has reviewed your request. They report back stating they cannot predict any misspellings as you have stated in your request. IT can run a search for the names provided, but will not be able to surmise misspellings. Understood. It is a name that could easily have misspellings so that was why I added that. Some may say Marlyn or Marlen so that is the jist of what I was getting at.
We can just run the request as is without the portion “any misspellings”. that is fine but add Marlyn or Marlen and remove any misspellings
Please let us know if we may proceed as proposed. proceed as adjusted above-
Thanks.
January 28, 2020, 4:02pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the clarification, it is very helpful. We will proceed.
Regards.
January 29, 2020, 8:04am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
63 days ago…
Request #20-63
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
————————
After reviewing all the PRRs today
I am pulling a PRR Non Commercial Request with electronic return for ALL of Ralph Lucas emails with topics: GMHS, Granite Mountain Hotshots, Crew 7, Marty Cole, Tony Sciacca, Dennis Light, Darrell Willis, Duane Steinbrink, “Jamie”, “Light”, “Cooley”, HG / Honor Guard, Yarnell / Yarnell Hill Fire, KC Yowell, Frisby, “Brown”, Troy Steinbrink, “Cougan”, Abel, “Fred”, …Thompson
Thank you
Best Regards.
—————
Received
January 18, 2020 via web
————-
Departments
Fire Department, IT
———————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 18, 2020, 12:24pm
———————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 21, 2020, 11:25am
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 11:25am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
IT has reviewed your request and determined that the keywords that you list, such as: “Jamie”, “Light”, Frisby, “Brown”, Abel, “Fred” and Thompson” are much too broad and garner hundreds of thousands of emails that will not pertain to your other listed criteria. Using such keywords will make the request next to impossible to fill.
IT will use their expertise and run an email harvest that pertains more closely to the following criteria that you provided, such as:
“Ralph Lucas emails with topics: GMHS, Granite Mountain Hotshots, Crew 7, Marty Cole, Tony Sciacca, Dennis Light, Darrell Willis, Duane Steinbrink, “Cooley”, HG / Honor Guard, Yarnell / Yarnell Hill Fire, KC Yowell, Troy Steinbrink, “Cougan”, Schoeffler.
Thank you.
January 23, 2020, 8:37am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
IT has reviewed your request and determined that the keywords that you list, such as: “Jamie” –
then revise but not omit — Ralph Lucas emails with topics:
SPECIFIC: Jaimie Sventek
“Light”,
SPECIFIC: Dennis Light
Frisby,
SPECIFIC: Brian Frisby
“Brown”,
SPECIFIC: True Heart Brown
Abel,
SPECIFIC: Todd Abel
“Fred”
SPECIFIC: Fred Schoeffler
January 25, 2020, 10:05pm by the requester
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:10pm by the requester
that was weird
it just a portion of this comment
63 days ago I requested…
Request #20-61
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
————————
Request #20-46 closed so revising it as follows:
Records:any Public Records including emails made by anyone named Charlie Cook, Charles Cook, Chuck Cook, or spelled with and “e” Cooke in regards to Granite Mountain Hotshots / Crew 7 and or Yarnell / Yarnell Fire and or any email tied to opposing concerns in any fashion to any area.
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
—————————-
Received
January 18, 2020 via web
————————-
Departments
Fire Department, IT, Legal Department
————————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
———————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 18, 2020, 8:31am
—————
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT, Legal Department.
January 21, 2020, 11:15am
—————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 11:17am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I would like to inform you that, we can do a query with the name, but without Mr. Cook’s email address, one cannot be certain we have captured all emails by Mr. Cook. This is just information for you, not a questions or request for your response.
IT will proceed with an email harvest once this request comes up in their que.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 11:23am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 22, 2020, 10:18am
————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:11pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I cc’d it here too from other request:
External MessageRequester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the notice of the incorrect entries, they have been moved to 20-61 regarding the request for “Cook” or “Cooke”.
Thank you.
March 19, 2020, 9:34am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message HideRequester + Staff
you stated:
The media log is in paper format, so you will need to pay for the copies. I will need to go back into the storage facility and gather those documents and let you know how many pages.
I have yet to see an invoice
may have got LOST because this is in wrong request you replied in and this one was closed
please move to proper request
I am awaiting invoice
thank you
best regards
March 19, 2020, 5:57am by the requester
March 19, 2020, 9:53am by the requester
External Message Requester + Staff
Sounds good, thanks.
March 19, 2020, 11:31am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
63 days ago I requested…
Request #20-61
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
————————
Request #20-46 closed so revising it as follows:
Records:any Public Records including emails made by anyone named Charlie Cook, Charles Cook, Chuck Cook, or spelled with and “e” Cooke in regards to Granite Mountain Hotshots / Crew 7 and or Yarnell / Yarnell Fire and or any email tied to opposing concerns in any fashion to any area.
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
—————————-
Received
January 18, 2020 via web
————————-
Departments
Fire Department, IT, Legal Department
————————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
———————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 18, 2020, 8:31am
—————
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT, Legal Department.
January 21, 2020, 11:15am
—————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 11:17am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I would like to inform you that, we can do a query with the name, but without Mr. Cook’s email address, one cannot be certain we have captured all emails by Mr. Cook. This is just information for you, not a questions or request for your response.
IT will proceed with an email harvest once this request comes up in their que.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 11:23am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 22, 2020, 10:18am
————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:11pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I cc’d it here too from other request:
External MessageRequester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the notice of the incorrect entries, they have been moved to 20-61 regarding the request for “Cook” or “Cooke”.
Thank you.
March 19, 2020, 9:34am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message HideRequester + Staff
you stated:
The media log is in paper format, so you will need to pay for the copies. I will need to go back into the storage facility and gather those documents and let you know how many pages.
I have yet to see an invoice
may have got LOST because this is in wrong request you replied in and this one was closed
please move to proper request
I am awaiting invoice
thank you
best regards
March 19, 2020, 5:57am by the requester
March 19, 2020, 9:53am by the requester
I am a very pure person who has now been showing these “unpublished” PRRs to you all.
I have not seen anyone do the same as I have offered and I did all the online digital ones and did not exclude any– still working on a few more to post I think that is all that are left.
Is it hard? Just time consuming and I can think of so much more OTHER stuff I need to be doing…
I met this man that I pulled 64 days ago the record request- I met him last week in the PCU/ICU area of Yavapai Regional-
I was visiting someone there.
I did not know it was YOU until I asked out in the parking lot.
I wonder all the while I talked with another – KC – if he (Jeff) knew it was me who pulled this request on him?
Sorry, sir. I just need to document and know “how” this crew truly was made and the other 19 folks as well need to know- they are not supporters of any family using other family member’s loved one for their organization(s) as they have and they appreciate how generous I have been to them in person on sharing vs. their so-called family advocates- I do this for myself and for them and the kids and the homeowners and pretty much all of us who are still affected by this.
Request #20-56
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
NAME:
Archer,Jeffrey
Jeff Archer
Jeffry Archer
Jeffery Archer
Records defined:
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
SCOPE of topics within records tied to that name to narrow it down:
Yarnell and / or Granite Mountain Hotshots (priorly known as Crew7) and / or Duane Steinbrink and / or Chief Ben Palm and / or Chuck Tidey and/or Marty Cole and / or Darrell Willis and or Type 1 and or Nowicki and or Craig Knapp and or Patrick McGroder and or Tony Sciacca.
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
———————————
Received
January 17, 2020 via web
===========
Departments
Fire Department
——————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
—————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 17, 2020, 12:29pm
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please consider narrowing the request as it is to broad when you add the definition of “record”. Narrowing a request can help the City expedite filling requests. You can always ask for more once you get the narrowed request filled.
What document are you looking for in relation to Mr. Jeffrey Archer?
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 1:19pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 17, 2020, 1:20pm
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am good with that scope range- I narrowed it down best in original so I can review through there the need I have on that topic.
I did define records with a highlight to emails.
Yeah I have some missing links and I think Archer’s areas may provide such. To pinpoint an exact document- it is just more likely I will find what I need in general specified scope in original request.
Thank You.
Best Regards.
I am in no hurry-
January 17, 2020, 1:26pm by the requester
————————
xternal Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
This request is too broad. Please specify what public record documents you want and possibly from what department. Staff cannot possibly fill this request the way it has been submitted. I see your “definition” of record and that does not help a staff person fill the request. We have no real idea of what public record document you seek.
Thank you.
January 22, 2020, 10:22am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am going to keep the large scope with some topics to help you narrow it down because I defined the meaning of RECORD because I am trying to locate the document that made GMHS a type 1 and or 2 from CREW 7. It has to be there in archived records or in some email or some note taking or form so I defined RECORDS properly because I have no clue where it will be but it has to exist if the GMHS became a Type 1 or 2 and he (Archer) is known as the only signature and there should have been more than one so “fact checking” looking for this document. I have spent this week looking at all the unredacted files at State Records where I am getting to see some answers but none yet on this area but if I find it- I will let you know.
So best I can narrow it is-
Archer tied to GMHS / Crew 7 and or Yarnell in any way and or Signatures tied to GMHS and or station 71 and or Marty Cole and or Tony Sciacca.
————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:16pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
IT will do an email search as you have requested and the City will look for the “document that made GMHS a type 1 and or 2 from CREW 7”
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 3:03pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————–
65 days ago I opened this request
Request #20-48
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
—————
I am asking for all emails, documents, letters with the name Wade Ward tied to any of these names in any order or combination or there of: Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman, Amanda, Amanda Beno, Amanda Marsh, Amanda Lohman and or Joy A Collura and or just the word “Joy” and or Yarnell and or Yarnell Hill Fire and or Nowicki and or Willis and or Steinbrink and or Lucas and or Marty Cole.
City of Prescott:
For the record, I never received any letter from Wade Ward in regards to Amanda Beno Marsh. All my emails in 2013 from Amanda were kind. The shift began when I started in 2014 pulling PRRs and FOIAs because I overheard a City Official at a store say he did not agree with Holly’s article and they needed more to go by- THAT WAS WHY I PULLED MY FIRST RECORDS with other entities. Your entity never entered my world until years later because I liked the Mayor K saying we had “common sense” the hikers and I did not like HOW the City was treated on the aftermath so I stayed clear for long time pulling any records to CITY OF PRESCOTT.
Every moment I had with Wade Ward was pleasant and NEVER once did he tell me what is written in this email. NEVER.
Learning about it for the first time in 18-541 PRR. I did not even know Nowicki at the date of this letter. She started sifting in late Fall 2013, start of Winter stating to heal our pains she was sending us the CELL PHONE RECORDS. She never did.
I want that noted FOR THE RECORDS the above information.
0345_Sender_Ward,Wade – FirstRecipient_ean[redactedhere] – Subject_Please consider – 10-09-20…
—————-
Received
January 16, 2020 via web
—————
Departments
Fire Department, IT
——————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
—————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 16, 2020, 9:53am
—————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 16, 2020, 5:06pm
—————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 16, 2020, 5:07pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The portion of your requests that states “all … documents, letters with the name..” is too broad. We can look to fill the “email” portion of your request as that is specific. However, we will need a time frame for the IT Department to search. Please provide a time frame.
Secondly, please tell us what public record document you seek when you refer to documents and letters. The term “all” makes this too broad and impossible to fill.
Thank you.
January 22, 2020, 10:31am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I did define it.
SEARCH: WADE WARD
Subtopics (all name spellings in original request):
All individually named or in combination if found:
1. Joy / Joy Collura
2. Amanda Marsh
3. Nowicki
4. Willis
5. Steinbrink
6. Marty Cole
Actually to be specific, I can do that for some areas:
like the Ward to Nowicki with the use of “joy” letter – if there is any other record leading up to that sort of communication to figure HOW my name was tied into it.
Emails from Ward to the rest of the names with the date range May 2013 to one month after his date of resignation when he went to APS.
January 25, 2020, 9:18pm by the requester
—————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:19pm by the requester
Request #20-47
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
——————-
Records:any Public Records Request(s) made by anyone named Tom Steele and or Thomas Steele and or Tom A Steele and the return he got of those records.
Any emails or documents with the name listed above and or email steelet[redactedhere] tied to the Yarnell Hill Fire or Granite Mountain Hotshots / Crew 7 and or Amanda Beno Marsh or Julianne Ashcraft
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
—————————–
Received
January 15, 2020 via web
================
Departments
Fire Department, IT, Legal Department
———————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
———————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 15, 2020, 10:26pm
————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT, Legal Department.
January 16, 2020, 3:58pm
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 16, 2020, 4:01pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 22, 2020, 10:16am
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 11:20pm by the requester
———————-
66 days ago I opened this request and closed days later.
hashtag #Cook or #Charlie Cook, #Charles Cook, #Chuck Cook,
I need to speak with you if you were that name above at public meetings in 2013 upset in the Yavapai County area-
We need to talk so I can show you some documents
Request #20-46
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
Records:any Public Records Request(s) made by anyone named Charlie Cook, Charles Cook, Chuck Cook, or spelled with and “e” Cooke and the return he got of those records.
Non Commercial Request
Electronic Return
——————-
Received
January 15, 2020 via web
———————
Departments
Fire Department, Legal Department
——————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 15, 2020, 10:21pm
————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Legal Department.
January 16, 2020, 3:54pm
——————–
Request Closed Public
January 16, 2020, 3:56pm
————–
Request Reopened Public
January 16, 2020, 3:56pm
——————
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I have one more place to check before confirming, no record found. I will get hopefully find the result soon.
Thanks.
January 16, 2020, 3:57pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 17, 2020, 2:08pm
——————
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 2:11pm
—————————
67 days ago I opened this based on an ongoing other request to do so-
Request #20-43
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
as stated in 18-541
7. All emails and documents and records and texts with the name AMANDA BENO MARSH LOHMAN / AMANDA MARSH / AMANDA BENO MARSH / AMANDA LOHMAN and tied to YARNELL
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
———————————-
I strongly believe my statement
“Definitely lacking important emails between Willis and Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman on Nov 2014 thru January 2015. He told us she emailed him for his support and we have external witnesses who heard him state that so there is those documents. ”
falls into staying in and fulfilling the Large Scope 18-541 request but willing to make new request but I did state “all” so I do not know why the statement above got this statement below
“You will need to make a new request for it. I can only search for records that were listed in the original request portion of the request for this particular public record request. ”
Either way- covered my basis.
Non commercial purpose request with electronic return
———————–
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
——-
Departments
Fire Department, IT
——————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
—————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 3:18pm
———————
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT.
January 14, 2020, 3:19pm
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Our Information Technology Department confirms that the names you have listed were included in the email harvest for 18-541 along with the phone numbers you listed in that older request.
In regards to the remaining portion of the request for “any and all” with a listing of a voluminous criteria and array of documents, there is no way we can fill a request so vague and large. Please tell us what public record documents you seek.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 4:14pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
to confirm the IT states there is no more Nov 2014 thru January 2015 with her name and what I got is just that – nothing further. Nothing in the trash recovery area either. Confirmed.
I will take that as final there is none for Nov 2014 thru Jan 2015 area.
Specifically I can exclude any emails tied to her Eric Marsh Foundation and her annual Retreat data and any area tied to her foundation matters or Honor Guard matters but will keep the large volume scope on her name tied to Yarnell Hill Fire as well as any communications between her and the name “Marsha”
I think excluding her foundation should make it less voluminous.
January 15, 2020, 8:43am by the requester
—————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms Collura,
I have contacted IT to confirm your inquiry. You may want to also consider that the two parties may have communicated through personal means, rather than through a City venue. The City does not have access to personal emails unless those emails pass through to a City related email system at some point. I believe even if emails have been put into a “trash” function on an employee’s email account, IT would still capture such. I will confirm that as well with IT.
I will let you know IT’s response when it comes through.
Thank you.
January 15, 2020, 10:12am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms Collura,
I have contacted IT to confirm your inquiry. You may want to also consider that the two parties may have communicated through personal means, rather than through a City venue. right but if in that City venue her personal email is in there with ANY area tied to Yarnell or my name – I can view it even if other persons emails are in there if it some way went to a FORWARD of a city employee because for example Willis has used both personal and professional and I have seen both his emails in records released because it is tied to fire- so you are confirming that you do not have any further emails for Nov 2014 to an 2015 is my takeaway- thank you. The City does not have access to personal emails unless those emails pass through to a City related email system at some point. I believe even if emails have been put into a “trash” function on an employee’s email account, IT would still capture such. I will confirm that as well with IT. sounds good- thank you
I will let you know IT’s response when it comes through .thank you
January 15, 2020, 10:59am by the requester
—————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 17, 2020, 2:11pm
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
When it was mentioned that the two parties may have communicated via personal email, I meant that they may have only used their personal email accounts without anyone else from the City included. We cannot reach into someone’s personal email accounts, unless somewhere in the email chain it came through someone’s City issued email. If the email came through the City in any way, it would have been included.
Still, this request will go to IT for review.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 2:18pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The IT Department has responded with:
So the search criteria was for anything in email text with the following names:
“Elizabeth Nowicki” “Holly Neill” “Deanna Thompson” “Amanda Beno” “Marsh Lohman” “Amanda Marsh” “Amanda Beno Marsh” “Amanda Lohman”
From the date 6/30/13 to present (the emails will be date stamped)
So this would have included everything with those names in that date range not just tied to the term Yarnell.
Because your request came in after 2015, it is safe to assume the email search has already produced all that the City has available.
In regards to “all” and you definition of a record, we cannot search for a public record based off of a definition. Please tell us what public record document you seek. If you are uncertain as to what document you are seeking, you can always request that in a new request.
This request is considered filled previously via 18-541.
Thank you.
January 22, 2020, 10:54am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————-
Request Closed Hide Public
Your public records request has come into our system as a duplicate, this request will be closed and we will respond to the other request. 18-541.
Thank you.
January 22, 2020, 10:54am
———–
External Message Requester + Staff
I found my answer from another area / entity on this topic.
Ok, request closed.
Thank you.
January 25, 2020, 9:51pm by the requested
67 days ago I opened this request
Request #20-40
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
———————————————–
I would like all records “John N. MacLean / John Norman MacLean” , “Deanna Thompson”, “Holly Henderson Neill / Holly Neill” received to date from the City of Prescott along with their original requests for public records.
I would like to have the index logs of all full names or entities including SAIT SAIR and ADOSH – actually all who pulled records for Yarnell Hill Fire or Granite Mountain Hotshots or Crew7 from CITY OF PRESCOTT but only the above named on the actual items they received plus original request but I need to look at who asked for what and when. Yet the named folks above I need to pull what they received and the original request.
Recap- Full Index Log since 2013 who asked for the records on Yarnell Hill Fire or Granite Mountain Hotshots or Crew7 from CITY OF PRESCOTT plus all records “John N. MacLean / John Norman MacLean” , “Deanna Thompson”, “Holly Henderson Neill / Holly Neill” received to date from the City of Prescott along with their original requests for public records.
non-commercial purpose with electronic return.
No rush. I know I have numerous open requests.
————————–
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
——————-
Departments
Fire Department, Legal Department
——————–
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 1:46pm
—————-
External Message Requester + Staff
to make further clarification-
Index Log for 2013 means January 2013 to present not June 30 2013 to present
January 14, 2020, 1:50pm by the requester
——————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, Legal Department.
January 14, 2020, 4:55pm
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 4:55pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:44pm by the requester
—————————————-
https://youtu.be/7BDBzgHXf64
Let the good times roll…
Request #20-39
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
tstein[redacted here] (Troy’s alternate email that has any YHF information used at work or in your system-)
Also any emails with this email with the topic Yarnell Hill Fire, June 30 2013, Granite Mountain Hotshots, GMHS7 Crew 7, any of the Granite Mountain Hotshots Alumni (living or deceased) tied to topic: fire.
this is a non-commercial purpose
electronic return-
thank you.
Best Regards.
====================
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
===================
Departments
Fire Department, IT
——————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————-
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 11:22am
———————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 14, 2020, 4:55pm
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 4:56pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:44pm by the requester
——— External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
IT has reviewed your request and there are issues with the way you have composed your search criteria. IT has responded with:
I can search for any emails coming to/from tstein[redacted here] to a city email address.
I can only search for terms that are given to me, so topics like, “any YHF information”, “or having to with fire”, aren’t searchable options.
She will need to give me a list of what she wants me to search for.
Also, she will need to give me a list of the Granite Mountain Hotshots Alumni (living or deceased) she wants me to search for.
So far the list I have is “Yarnell Hill Fire” “June 30 2013” “Granite Mountain Hotshots” “GMHS7” and “Crew 7”.
Please be specific in your request. IT cannot work with too broad of search terms and will also need you to specify what names or terms need to be searched. Unfortunately, we cannot assume what you would like searched.
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 1:41pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
IT
[JOY Reply’s]
what is the professional IT your system uses and who is the full name working on my requests from IT? I have never on any other name had this concern of such “scope” so why now on Troy’s email? I want all emails pertaining to Yarnell Hill Fire to and from Troy’s government email or this email enclosed that went to a government email. This scope is direct. Now for the GMHS Alumni – you will have to “explain” to your IT you illegally redacted such list from all prior requests so they will have to go through you to obtain that- I have names from other PRRs and FOIAs and Arizona State Archives Records but that is not my duty to offer it to IT when City of Prescott since 2016 used “still searching” as their reply to me but have not yet provided me such list. I do not have to provide such list to IT but City of Prescott did illegally redact in emails such list so they can answer IT.
has reviewed your request and there are issues with the way you have composed your search criteria. IT has responded with:
I can search for any emails coming to/from tstein[redacted here] to a city email address. Then do so-
I can only search for terms that are given to me, so topics like, “any YHF information”, “or having to with fire”, aren’t searchable options.
She will need to give me a list of what she wants me to search for.I gave the topics.
Also, she will need to give me a list of the Granite Mountain Hotshots Alumni (living or deceased) she wants me to search for. then IT can obtain it from you since your dept illegally reacted it.
So far the list I have is “Yarnell Hill Fire” “June 30 2013” “Granite Mountain Hotshots” “GMHS7” and “Crew 7”.
Please be specific in your request. I was specific. I want to review any government email that is tied to Yarnell Hill Fire and or the GMHS Alumni.
IT cannot work with too broad of search terms I have other requests where they have done it for other people with same topics so please do not feel all of a sudden on Troy’s such unless you have a new IT person and if that is the case than please provide the IT System used and both or multiple full names who is stating these comments just on Troy’s and no prior other name I have provided with same topics was shown to be too broad- and will also need you to specify what names or terms need to be searched.anything to do with Yarnell and or Yarnell Hill Fire and or GMHS (living or deceased) Unfortunately, we cannot assume what you would like searched. and nor do I have to be shown this explanation solely on Troy and never before on any other asking the same inquiry so I am owed some further explanations.
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 3:43pm by the requester
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
My apologies if I seem with mood yet please note it is the CITY OF PRESCOTT records dept who since 2016 stated they are searching for the GMHS alumni list but one of these requests showed TOO MANY areas that you illegally redacted it so yeah once CITY OF PRESCOTT fixes their illegal actions than I can provide IT with such list.
———————————
It is wrong that this IT has not used this with older requests when it is the same scope just different name and or email. Why did the CITY OF PRESCOTT records close Troy’s request calling it a duplicate when it was not. I am owed explanations.
January 28, 2020, 3:50pm by the requester
———————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
From an open request I can help IT with what I have been shown so far from GMHS ALUMNI names provided but really IT needs to look at the Alumni List that was redacted in Request #18-541 and while there, they can make it legal and lift the redactions. Here is what I have but I want the complete list not yet provided to me-
#19-1070
OPEN
All personnel file records on these men even if it lays outside the Granite Mountain Hotshot areas – any area the City of Prescott shows these names with proper redaction:
Shane Arollado
Matthew Barton
Scott Bowers
Brandon Bunch
Austin Carmen
Matt DeMenna
Brady Higgs
Justin Kaoni
Aaron Lawson
Elliot Logan
Daniel Loghry
Chase Madrid
Phil Maldonado (Maldo)
Carl Mathhes
Daniel McCarty
Austin Mork
Eric Naumetz
Ian (Whalen) Owens
Renan Packer
Geoff Phelan
Sean Balboa
Jake Hannah
Wade Tait
January 28, 2020, 5:28pm by the requester
——————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you, we will work with what you provide.
January 29, 2020, 8:00am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
and again why am I being denied the GMHS Alumni records – I challenge this area. In 2016 you stated it was being searched and in recent open request it is illegal to redact as it was done on so many areas along with many missing attachments. I need confirmation as I am challenging you on this to not go with what I provide only but to lift the redactions on other request and as well use those names and provide them to me as well. It is an area I will challenge for currently it is illegal to have it the way it is. Please confirm are you still in “fixing” mode that area or am I being denied the records? For my records I need such answers.
Thank you.
Best Regards.
January 29, 2020, 9:43am by the requester
——————
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
February 26, 2020, 11:05am
—————————
External Message Requester + Staff
I am appealing this #20-39 request.
March 3, 2020, 6:55pm by the requester
Did I just see OPEN for a record tied to a Steinbrink?
Yes, you did. 67 glorious days it has been. 🙂
There is a God…
duh…I knew that.
Someone getting tired of me not accepting the “close” methods you got wrapped down so quick?
Glad we have one open still…
Request #20-38
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
——————————-
All emails / and or letters for Troy Duane Steinbrink with topic:
Yarnell or Granite Mountain Hotshots or Duane Steinbrink.
this is NOT a duplicate to 20-37 [emphasis added]
the other is the father to Troy Duane Steinbrink
Request 20-35 – NextRequest – Modern FOIA & Public Records Request Software.pdf CLOSED.pdf
—————————–
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
—————————-
Departments
Fire Department, IT
———————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 10:39am
——————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 14, 2020, 10:53am
———————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT.
January 14, 2020, 10:53am
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 10:53am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————–
External Message Requester + Staff
my apologies-
this is a non commercial purpose request with electronic return
January 14, 2020, 11:01am by the requester
————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:41pm by the requester
——————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 9:58am by the requester
Remember my last request https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-483089 it was the same lingo but instead the last one had Willis name and this one has Steinbrink- look at Willis is STILL OPEN yet Steinbrink- even though I asked a IT inquiry was closed within 27 days and they were opened the same day…read on:
You gotta appreciate someone you know working the Public Records areas – “right??? ” just saying”
God Bless ya Steinbrinks
Thank God I have Craig filling in me in … and no not your bro, Gary …different Craig…
Let’s go … let’s make a move…
DO THE RIGHT THING…
https://youtu.be/tZQQGX24Teg
Request #20-37
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
—————-
All emails / and or letters for Duane Steinbrink with topic:
Yarnell and / or Granite Mountain Hotshots and / or Eric Marsh Foundation / “Amanda” and / or Chief Ben Palm and / or Chuck Tidey.
Non-commercial purpose
electronic return.
———————
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
———————-
Departments
Fire Department, IT
———————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
———————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 9:55am
———————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 14, 2020, 10:02am
————————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT.
January 14, 2020, 10:26am
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 10:28am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:40pm by the requester
—————-
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
February 10, 2020, 8:53am
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Will your IT team “confirm” this is accurate that your IT system has zero email from Duane Steinbrink tied to the topics?
just need positive clarification.
thank you
best regards
March 20, 2020, 9:45am by the requester
I opened this request 67 days ago
I do not know if you noted yet – Willis is not “as protected’ as the Steinbrinks on these records releases
if you saw in all my requests- “just saying” –
maybe some bias happening when you lay on Social Media as a friend
but then again think about the request I was protecting down below where I said I want to work at that station just getting my structure fire training and EMT first but yeah even they closed that request remember that –
which indirectly that guy is a Steinbrink too in his own way- he is married to Duane’s daughter.
Come on Arizona State Ombudsman- wake up to see what’s happening…
I know you are busy
yet let me hashtag # Danee Garone here and heck why not hashtag # Jay Kurth’s professional backyard CAPLES RX while I am at it—
Help me with these odd requests being unfulfilled-
PLEASE…
Request #20-36
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
All emails / and or letters for Darrell Willis with topic:
Yarnell and / or Granite Mountain Hotshots and / or Duane Steinbrink and / or Chief Ben Palm and / or Chuck Tidey.
Non-commercial purpose
electronic return.
—————————
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
———————–
Departments
Fire Department, IT
————————-
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 9:53am
———————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, IT.
January 14, 2020, 10:26am
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 10:27am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:40pm by the requester
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 9:24am by the requester
CLOSED THE SAME DAY THEY GOT IT???
While my old request remains stagnant
AS I SAID EARLIER, MY GOOGLE ALERTS SHOWED ME THAT THE POINT OF CONTACT FOR MY REQUEST IS ON TROY’S SOCIAL MEDIA SO I SNIPPED TOOL THAT
WAS THIS A BIAS DECISION TO QUICKLY CLOSE IT? WHHHHATTTT?????
SOMETHING.
Request #20-35
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
—————–
All emails / and or letters for Troy Duane Steinbrink with topic:
Yarnell or Granite Mountain Hotshots or Duane Steinbrink.
————————-
Received
January 14, 2020 via web
——————
Departments
Fire Department
—————-
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
================
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 14, 2020, 9:51am
—————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Correction-
should have stated:
All emails / and or letters for Troy Duane Steinbrink with topic:
Yarnell and / or Granite Mountain Hotshots and /or Duane Steinbrink.
Non commercial request
Electronic return.
January 14, 2020, 9:57am by the requester
———————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
This seems to be a duplicate request. Please see 20-37.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 10:29am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 14, 2020, 10:30am
——————
Request Closed Hide Public
Your public records request has come into our system as a duplicate, this request will be closed and we will respond to the other request. See request 20-37.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 10:32am
————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Incorrect.
The name in 20-37 is the father of Troy Duane Steinbrink – Duane Steinbrink.
OPEN this up again, please.
It is not duplicate.
Those are two different people.
January 14, 2020, 10:36am by the requester
————————–
External Message Requester + Staff
I made a new request since this was closed as a duplicate and it is not a duplicate.
January 25, 2020, 10:39pm by the requester
—————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Link to View document
0050_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.gov – Subject_FW_ Granite M…
Link to View document
0018_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.gov – Subject_Days of …
I am reviewing request
18-541
saw the above email thread
there is emails showing in there so far for Troy so I want to APPEAL the IT on my requests on Troy
I definitely want to review his email threads on GMHS or Yarnell or Crew 7 or Duane
March 19, 2020, 12:22pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Requester + Staff
I appeal this request
March 20, 2020, 8:28am by the requester
—————-
https://youtu.be/snWHvcWsybM
Let this song get you off your feet and dance and smile … I mean for those that have legs 😉
decisons, decisons, decions…
Belt the song out-
and smile.
Look at video and look at those men smile…
freaking contagious huh
I have been singing that Spinner song over and over since 3:34am
I cannot get the song out of my head
I keep thinking of my Aunt Eydie and my mom going to the Solid Gold shows back in the day and how smoking hot my mom looked dressed up
remember that show
https://youtu.be/Bl4K6VLIhf0
h t t p s://youtu.b e/Pge_uGSADDc
h t t p s://youtu.b e/ltSpd7Rh_sM
I opened this 68 days ago
Request #20-32
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
—————–
I would like all records “Elizabeth Nowicki” received to date from the City of Prescott along with her original requests for public records.
I also want the document that you notified her formally that in my public records 18-541 her private information was not redacted as well as the others I document in that request and that they were notified; I want that for my records.
non-commercial purpose with electronic return.
No rush. I know I have numerous open requests and one closed requests I challenge to be re-opened.[more than one]
—————————————
Received
January 13, 2020 via web
————————
Departments
Fire Department, Human Resources, Legal Department
————————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————-
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 13, 2020, 2:34pm
—————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, Human Resources, Legal Department.
January 13, 2020, 3:48pm
—————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:37pm by the requester
————
Request Closed Hide Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. Staff has been to storage and has not found any original public record requests within the boxes from Ms. Nowicki. If there was an official record request, it would be past retention at this point. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
February 7, 2020, 9:03am
————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I just spent today in downtown Phoenix learning what is suppose to be kept after this historical fire – this area is one.
All records to YHF are permanent records-
I will make new request referring back to this request.
I will be away until March but logged on one last time to see the weather updates and saw your email.
February 7, 2020, 8:15pm by the requester
—————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I would like to see the destruction of records on this topic of Nowicki because we know she made requests
we just never know if they were fulfilled
so if you destroyed any records – I want that receipt
March 20, 2020, 8:19am by the requester
70 days ago I opened this
Request #20-29
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
——————–
I need to ask for non-commercial purpose electronic return:
In request 18-541 I read this:
“From: Willis,Darrell To: Holly Neill Sent: Sat, Nov 9, 2013 8:24 pm Subject: Re: records Holly the records are in the City Attorney’s office and I will have to request them. Shouldn’t be a problem will check with them on Tuesday. What are you looking for if you don’t mind me asking? OSHA also reviewed them. ”
[emphasis added]
I am asking for Eric Shane Marsh and Darrell Willis ALL phone record(s) / record(s) for June 30, 2013 that OSHA reviewed and or received.
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
[emphasis added]
attachment
0679_Sender_Holly Neill – [email protected] – Subject_records – 11-10…
————————
Received
January 11, 2020 via web
—————-
Departments
Legal Department
—————-
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 11, 2020, 2:42pm
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Legal Department.
January 13, 2020, 10:49am
——————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 13, 2020, 10:49am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:37pm by the requester
——————-
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
I opened this 70 days ago
Request #20-28
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
————————
Wow, this going through the records is interesting.
Time consuming. You should know you searched and gathered and did some hard work yourself.
I need to ask for non-commercial purpose electronic return:
any record(s) – tied to Wildfire GMIHC Learning and Tribute Center Meetings.
All that includes these Entity IDs:
“Wildland Fire Museum / Learning Center” , LLC Entity ID: S9040065 (GRANITE MOUNTAIN INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW that was tied to CITY OF PRESCOTT), 22547601(Statutory Agent
Jason Lohman; spouse to Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman), Inactive (4/14/2018) N22430477 (GRANITE MOUNTAIN INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW (GMIHC) LEARNING A CHARLES ANTHONY SHAW) and do you have the document file of their open meeting document history(ies) ( should be more documents than this as shows on: https://www.azoca.gov/open-meeting-and-public-records-law/open-meetings/.
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
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Read less
0680_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_Sventek – Subject_Second Stakeholder Meeting – 09-05-20…
Wildland Fire Museum-Learning Ctr Stakeholders Mtg Notes August 12 Final.pdf
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Received
January 11, 2020 via web
——————-
Departments
Fire Department, City Manager
——————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
—————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 11, 2020, 2:25pm
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 13, 2020, 10:47am
——————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 13, 2020, 10:47am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:35pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please declare what documents you are seeking. The term you used, “any record(s)”, is too broad and does not tell the City what document to produce, as we do not know what document to provide.
Are you seeking meeting minutes?
Please be specific when telling us what document you want.
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 3:16pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
it is defined in original request:
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
January 28, 2020, 4:08pm by the requester
————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: City Manager.
January 29, 2020, 9:09am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 8:06am by the requester
this was 73 days ago- they handled yet another of my requests but my oldest one stays stagnant and open and not complete
————–
Request #20-17
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
——————-
I would like the document of items CITY OF PRESCOTT has purged since 2013; itemized with date and records removed from their system may it be paper form, photography, audios, or digital electronic due – ANY documents- to RETENTION SCHEDULE or any other reason(s) pertaining to the specific topic(s): “Forests, wildfires and forest management”,”Fire”, “YARNELL FIRE”, “YARNELL HILL FIRE”, “GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS (GMHS)”, “GRANITE 7”, “CREW 7”, “Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew (GMIHC)”, “City Manager of Prescott, Forest Supervisor of the Prescott National Forest, and Prescott Fire Department Staff tied to fuels management”, “Prescott City Council, Yavapai County, Arizona State Land Department, and Prescott National Forest tied to fuels management”, ” Prescott Area Wildland Urban Interface Commission (PAWUIC)”, “Fuels Management Crew”, “the Fuels Management Crew evolved into Crew 7”, any documented Type 1 and or 2 Initial Attack Crew, any document that shows your system either moved ANY records to Arizona State Library, Archives, and Public Records, Marty Cole’s home, Tim McElwee’s home, Todd Rhine’s home, Troy Steinbrink’s home, Dan Bauman’s home, any of the Marsh / Lohman’s home, Duane Steinbrink’s home, Darrell Willis’s home or any other location or hom and / or destroyed and its itemized content of what was relocated. Those document I want for my records.
Thank you
Best regards,
Joy A Collura
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Received
January 8, 2020 via web
—————————
Departments
City Clerk, Fire Department
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Requester
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2015 03 24.pdf
Link to View document
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2016 02 04.pdf
Link to View document
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2017 08 11.pdf
Link to View document
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2018 01 23.pdf
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Jamie Sventek – Business Manager
54 pounds destroyed
Certificate of Destruction shows actual receipt
March 24, 2015
SIR SPEEDY – destroyed – 3/26/15 8:00 (EMS reports and various other file and records
2015 Public Safety Fire Dept.
Prevention Program 000-12-25 item#1 records start and end date 12/05 paper 1 file
Council Agenda Memos 000-12-16 Item#6 9/05 – 11/05 paper 1 file
Truck Estimates 000-11-54 item#10 2005-2005 paper 1 file
Prevention Goals 000-12-23 item#10 1994-1994 paper 1 file
Safety Inspections 000-11-8 item#5 1992 to 1992 paper 1 file
Planning Meeting 000-11-8 item#15 1988 to 1990 paper 1 file
Incident Reports 000-12-23 item#15 1987-1987 paper 1 file
Inspections 000-12-23 item#16 1987-1987 paper 1 file
Correspondence 000-12-15 item#10 1987 to 1990 paper 1 file
Drug Check off Sheets 000-12-23 item#5 3/11 – 12/13 paper 1/8 box [ did you all note that everything else was from the 80’s 90’s except this one was 2011 to 2013 – sure hope they did not feel privvy to wipe out any of GMHS documents to some RETENTION SCHEDULE? ]
—
2016 Public Safety Fire Dept.
Certificate of Destruction shows NO actual receipt
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) Records Adults 000-12-23 6a. July 2009 December 2009 Paper 1 Box
and Drug Box Check Sheets / Inventory Records GS 1024 10358_ March 2011 December 2014 Paper 13 Files
Jaimie Sventek
February 4, 2016
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2017 Public Safety Fire Dept.
Certificate of Destruction shows NO actual receipt
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) Adults 000-12-25 1 Jan 2011 June 2011 Paper 1 Box
Accounts Payable Records GS 1017 10057 July 2013 June 2014 Paper 1 Box
Jaimie Sventek
August 11, 2017
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2018 Public Safety Fire Dept.
Certificate of Destruction shows NO actual receipt
Drug Box Check Sheets GS 1024 10358 January 2015 December 2016 Paper 12 Files
Emergency Medical Services (EMS) Records – Adults GS 1024 10359 July 2011 December 2011 Paper 1 Box
Public Records Requests GS 1018 10299 July 2008 December 2016 Paper 1/2 Box
Jaimie Sventek
January 23, 2018
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Point of Contact
Sarah Siep [note: a newbie on the requests versus the usual names]
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Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 8, 2020, 9:17am
——————-
External Message Requester + Staff
“digital electronic due”
redacting the word “due”
January 8, 2020, 9:21am by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
correction
hom is home
January 8, 2020, 9:23am by the requester
————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: City Clerk.
January 8, 2020, 10:12am
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 8, 2020, 10:15am
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 10:41am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————
External Message Requester + Staff
clarity- this is a non commercial request with electronic return
January 8, 2020, 10:43am by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Laura is investigating this now-
It forwarded to her-
I will enclose the snip it that was sent to me Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:16 PM
by Richard Carroll
Records Analyst
Arizona State Library, Archives and Records Management
attach snip it on left of screen
January 9, 2020, 1:50pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
The return investigation results were hard for me to read. I do not know why you used RETENTION SCHEDULE on the types of requests I made-
According to C-38116, C-38117 (Office of the State Forester) they should be permanent those tied to YHF.
So as of today- officially the areas that were looked into for CITY OF PRESCOTT:
“The City of Prescott has not transferred anything to our facility since the 1970s.”
that is the latest update.
January 9, 2020, 2:53pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
update.
page 7:
https://apps.azlibrary.gov/records/general_rs/GS-1024.pdf
January 9, 2020, 7:26pm by the requester
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Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2018 01 23.pdf
January 17, 2020, 2:03pm
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2017 08 11.pdf
January 17, 2020, 1:59pm
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2016 02 04.pdf
January 17, 2020, 1:59pm
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Certificate of Records Destruction Fire Department 2015 03 24.pdf
January 17, 2020, 1:58pm
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The City Clerks’ Office has provided “4 destruction forms related to the Fire Department showing destruction of records by the Fire Department, which includes documentation from 2016 06 13 through today 2020 01 16.
It is noteworthy to add that the State of Arizona does not require us to report specific documents titles, contents etc. Our requirement is to report the specific category of records as outlined by the State Retention Schedule, the quantity of records destroyed and the date range included.
We have our own Records Center for storage therefore we have not sent documents to the State archives for storage during this time period.
Additionally, we do not move files to the homes of employees or others. Records are maintained either within the department that generated them or in the City’s Records Center which is managed by the City Clerk.” Per the City Clerk’s Office.
January 17, 2020, 2:07pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————
Request Closed Public
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 2:07pm
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The City Clerks’ Office has provided “4 destruction forms related to the Fire Department showing destruction of records by the Fire Department, which includes documentation from 2016 06 13 through today 2020 01 16.
It is noteworthy to add that the State of Arizona does not require us to report specific documents titles, contents etc. Our requirement is to report the specific category of records as outlined by the State Retention Schedule, the quantity of records destroyed and the date range included.
We have our own Records Center for storage therefore we have not sent documents to the State archives for storage during this time period.
Additionally, we do not move files to the homes of employees or others. Records are maintained either within the department that generated them or in the City’s Records Center which is managed by the City Clerk.” Per the City Clerk’s Office.
——————-
Good to know.
Now then you are aware all records tied to Yarnell Fire and GMHS are permanent records and you used the RETENTION SCHEDULE on request tied to YHF.
You do understand that, correct?
You cannot destroy any records so then I asked a long time ago for all records for GMHS and you lacked the Safety File tied to the GMHS, so do I need to place a spcecif request for that file since it lacked in my original one years ago?
January 17, 2020, 2:13pm by the requester
———————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Please make the new request as you have indicated.
This request is closed.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 3:04pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message Requester + Staff
specific
Correction
January 17, 2020, 2:14pm by the requester
—————————-
External Message Requester + Staff
ON 2015- you showed actual destruction receipt along with index log- where is 2016-2018?
March 20, 2020, 7:46am by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
I appeal this one based on the content I asked for would not fall under retention schedule but permanent archival.
March 20, 2020, 7:47am by the requester
Request #20-15
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
————–
Any Public Records Release, Index Log and/or Records and/or Documents to “Marty Cole” pertaining to “Granite Mountain Hotshots ( GMHS )” and/or “Crew 7” and/or “Granite 7” and/or “Granite Mountain 7”.
Any historical documents that were released to Marty Cole from 2000-present. I would like the index log showing that release.
Thank You
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura
———————
Received
January 7, 2020 via web
————————
Departments
City Clerk, Legal Department
———————-
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 7, 2020, 1:08pm
———————
Department Assignment Public
Added: City Clerk, Legal Department.
January 8, 2020, 7:52am
——————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 7:53am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————-
External Message Requester + Staff
clarity- this is a non commercial request with electronic return
January 8, 2020, 10:45am by the requester
———————
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 1:22pm
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
On this one, I would like to ensure you are comfortable with that closing response.
This may be an area I take to the next level so I want to make sure you fully checked on this one.
Thank You
Best Regards.
January 17, 2020, 1:31pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am in Fire Season Training starting Monday but this closed request may at some point be a public focus so that was why I wanted to double make sure you fully checked this out on Marty Cole.
I need to fact check your area and ensure you know at some point this will be a public focus.
So if you are okay with closing this and all was checked then I am okay.
January 18, 2020, 8:46am by the requester
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
There was not an INDEX/LOG in storage. I did find a partial list of requesters, which could possibly serve as a INDEX/LOG, but they were all from the media.
——————-
Yes, any index log showing all who has asked about YHF and or GMHS even list of media names
January 18, 2020, 10:21am by the requester
————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Very important that this CLOSED request gets a FINAL comment from my January 18, 2020, 8:46am comment down below before I escalate this to next area.
This is a rather important inquiry that may require even asking Mr. Cole himself on this request.
Thank you. Best Regards.
Closed to me is stating you do not have any document showing historical documents given to Mr. Cole in regards to the names I showed especially the Safety File.
That is how I define closed.
January 25, 2020, 6:54pm by the requester
—————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:30pm by the requester
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
you stated:
The media log is in paper format, so you will need to pay for the copies. I will need to go back into the storage facility and gather those documents and let you know how many pages.
I have yet to see an invoice
may have got LOST because this is in wrong request you replied in and this one was closed
please move to proper request
I am awaiting invoice
thank you
best regards
March 19, 2020, 5:57am by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the notice of the incorrect entries, they have been moved to 20-61 regarding the request for “Cook” or “Cooke”.
Thank you.
March 19, 2020, 9:34am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
74 days ago I opened this
Request #20-14
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
record retention schedule mentioned as final reply in Request #18-787
non commercial- electronic return request.
thank you
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura
——————–
Received
January 7, 2020 via web
——————
Departments
Fire Department
——————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 7, 2020, 12:54pm
———————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 7, 2020, 4:54pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 7, 2020, 4:55pm
—————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The Fire Department informs me they follow Arizona State Retention Schedules. Please follow the link provided to view the retention schedules. https://azlibrary.gov/arm/retention-schedules
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 8:11am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————–
Request Closed Public
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 8:11am
——————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I have already did my record search through them ( Arizona State Library, Archives, and Public Records ) years ago.
I was told and redirected to go to you direct the “custodian of the records.”
So do you have the release document that you released all the documents to them for preservation purposes being this was a National tragedy and has historical value.
Like GlendaleFD- they have an official purge document of their documents they destroyed due to retention schedule and it lists all they purged itemized so may I see that document with date that it happened with City of Prescott so I have it for my records. I have GlendaleFD official purge record and they were only allowed to purge certain sections not all and I got the remaining records that were not purged.
June 30, 2013 falls under “historical significance” and all records do not fall under normal retention protocol and the records I request would fall under historical significance.
I will call them again soon to get a recorded update to get them to state it clearly falls that you are exempt or not on this area on the national tragedy of Yarnell Hill Fire and the death of 19 men because the link below states “Forests, wildfires and forest management are records with significance historically and are permanent.”
https://azlibrary.gov/sites/default/files/arm_permanent_and_historical_records_2019.pdf
this #20-14 should not be closed.
I have the right to challenge the decision sent to me that they followed the state retention because if that is facts than there would be a document that you moved them to Arizona State Library, Archives, and Public Records for preservation being they preserve Forests, wildfires and forest management records as shown in link and I was told by them years ago you are the custodians with the records; none have been forwarded to them back then so I would use this document where you transferred it to them and match date I was told you had the records. I would like the document to match up to when they told me you had the records- that has value to me especially when it took you as long as it did to return with RETENTION SCHEDULE when you already could have stated that when you were in redaction stage of Scott Ludeman’s file. Right?
I am greatly disappointed that you would find RETENTION SCHEDULE and redirect me to that link and not be aware the very area I asked for is tied to a National Tragedy with historical significance. I am not satisfied with that as an answer.
January 8, 2020, 8:52am by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Laura is investigating this now-
It forwarded to her-
I will enclose the snip it that was sent to me Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:16 PM
by Richard Carroll
Records Analyst
Arizona State Library, Archives and Records Management
attach snip it on left of screen
January 9, 2020, 1:53pm by the requester
————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
The return investigation results were hard for me to read. I do not know why you used RETENTION SCHEDULE on the types of requests I made-
According to C-38116, C-38117 (Office of the State Forester) they should be permanent those tied to YHF.
So as of today- officially the areas that were looked into for CITY OF PRESCOTT:
“The City of Prescott has not transferred anything to our facility since the 1970s.”
that is the latest update.
January 9, 2020, 5:57pm by the requester
107 days since I opened it.
Request #19-1070
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
All personnel file records on these men even if it lays outside the Granite Mountain Hotshot areas – any area the City of Prescott shows these names with proper redaction:
Shane Arollado
Matthew Barton
Scott Bowers
Brandon Bunch
Austin Carmen
Matt DeMenna
Brady Higgs
Justin Kaoni
Aaron Lawson
Elliot Logan
Daniel Loghry
Chase Madrid
Phil Maldonado (Maldo)
Carl Mathhes
Daniel McCarty
Austin Mork
Eric Naumetz
Ian (Whalen) Owens
Renan Packer
Geoff Phelan
Sean Balboa
Jake Hannah
Wade Tait
————————
Received
December 5, 2019 via web
———————–
Departments
Fire Department, Human Resources
———————–
Invoices
Paid: $375.00 on 01/29/20
———————
Point of Contact
Melissa Fousek
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
December 5, 2019, 10:24am
————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
the READ MORE still does not expand so placing the names on this area fo rme to see later-
All personnel file records on these men even if it lays outside the Granite Mountain Hotshot areas – any area the City of Prescott shows these names with proper redaction:
Shane Arollado
Matthew Barton
Scott Bowers
Brandon Bunch
Austin Carmen
Matt DeMenna
Brady Higgs
Justin Kaoni
Aaron Lawson
Elliot Logan
Daniel Loghry
Chase Madrid
Phil Maldonado (Maldo)
Carl Mathhes
Daniel McCarty
Austin Mork
Eric Naumetz
Ian (Whalen) Owens
Renan Packer
Geoff Phelan
Sean Balboa
Jake Hannah
Wade Tait
December 5, 2019, 10:25am by the requester
————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Human Resources.
December 5, 2019, 11:12am
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process will take quite awhile due to the extreme voluminous requested material.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
December 5, 2019, 11:14am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The City of Prescott deems the majority of an employee’s personnel records confidential. The City is a political subdivision of the State of Arizona. The State of Arizona limits review of State employee personnel files made under a public records request to the following:
Name of employee;
Date of employment;
Current and previous class titles and dates of appointment to the class;
Current and previous agencies to which the employee has been assigned and the location of the main office for each agency;
Current and previous salaries and dates of each change;
Name of employee’s current or last known supervisor; and
Records that are reasonably necessary or appropriate to maintain an accurate knowledge of the employee’s disciplinary actions, including the employee responses to all disciplinary actions, unless providing this information is contrary to law. See Arizona Administrative Code Title 2, Ch 5.
Additionally, the privacy interests an employee has in other aspects of his/her personnel file militates against providing the entire file. It is also in the City’s best interests in having a full and open employee evaluation process to limit provision of the entire personnel file. Thus, the City’s policy in providing personnel records made pursuant to the Arizona Public Records laws is the same as required by the State of Arizona pursuant to the Administrative Code cited above.
The City will provide what is available for release.
Thank you.
December 5, 2019, 11:14am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
If you would be so kind as to tell us if there are specific documents you are seeking from the 23 listed people’s personnel files, that may help speed up the process.
Thank you.
December 5, 2019, 11:16am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am looking for application when hired, I am looking for resignation / termination letter, I am looking for with the proper HIPPA redactions notice of Injury reports, Certifications, Red Card, Promotions, Annual Reviews, Master Record.
This is a Non-Commercial electronic return request- if any area needs to be printed versus electronic just let me know.
December 5, 2019, 1:03pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
All municipal workers including for example Waste Management type jobs or any type not just tied to the fire department. If they belong to any other employment areas besides “Granite Mountain Hotshot (GMHS)” – I want to review the history tied to the City of Prescott. Any job position. This is not a request asking solely for their GMHS records but all tied and extended outside such.
December 5, 2019, 1:08pm by the requester
————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
A box with the records of the applicants you mention has been located in storage. Just by a quick view of the box, it is about 3 reams of paper worth. Generally a ream of paper consists of 500 pages. The standard fee for a copy is 25 cents per printed page. Therefore, a quick estimate for these records (not including the any records of employees still employed with the City, which are now in electronic format) is $375.00, plus postage if you want them mailed. The fee would need to be paid before work to begin copying and redacting will proceed.
Please let me know if you would like to proceed with this request. If you decide to go ahead and get those records, I can bill you through the system here. If it is found that there are more or less copies, we can refund or request further funds to cover the copies.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 3:26pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
3 reams of paper worth – $375.00, plus postage if you want them mailed.
—————————-
Agreed- send invoice.
In addition to those copies-
Will you scan the records and electronically place on memory stick as well and I will pre pay now for the $375 for copies plus $6.50 for them on a memory stick as well as the copies and save on postage and I will pick them up.
It would be too time consuming to place online here if it is 3 reams and too heavy to ship.
January 17, 2020, 4:20pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am online now until early Monday to pay invoice then it is hit or miss on me working on all open requests (Fire Season 2020 Training) and one area has 1 month allotment so I would like to extend past Feb 9th on that large scope to look at those records- I will post it under that request
January 18, 2020, 8:50am by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Please insert invoice for the amount before Feb 1 2020- I am in gear to head out to the Academies.
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:28pm by the requester
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Invoice Sent – $375.00 Requester + Staff
Prepay for estimated paper copies. $375.00. The requester understands that the cost may increase or decreased depending on the amount of copies. The charges are 25 cents per printed page, plus postage to send the copies to the requester.
No copies will be released without prior payment.
January 29, 2020, 8:08am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The invoice has been generated. The City will only provide the records in the format in which they are stored. We will not convert them into electronic format. I am informed by HR that there will be a few records that will be provided electronically.
Thank you.
January 29, 2020, 8:12am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Invoice Paid Public
$375.00 paid online
January 29, 2020, 9:24am
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
January 30, 2020, 2:14pm
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 6:57am by the requester
Now keep in mind before 2017 all my PRRs with City of Prescott was in paper form and I have no equipment to do that area to put it here but that was the largest scope request because that request was all of the stuff on GMHS-
even though I have not yet seen ALL to this date and you will catch me then asking for specifics-
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Opened 108 days ago
Request #19-1069
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
==============================
In the file attached in the ADOSH – SAIT SAIR note taking I saw other items I need to see if you already pulled for them- if I can have a public records version of:
1. Brendan McDonough Notebook used for June 30, 2013
2. I already have pending request for Willis cell records and it shows it was pulled prior so can I have that earlier to match one I got from another entity
3. any documents the City of Prescott or Prescott Fire Dept. has showing how many cell phones Willis had tied to his name on June 30, 2013
3. Eric Shane Marsh cell record that the ADOSH – SAIT SAIR received
4. HotShot Pre-Season Review Appendix C
5. With proper HIPPA redactions but the medical release for the crew to return for 2013 Season including Eric Shane Marsh
6. Full Name and Season of the Past Women Granite Mountain Hotshots or “Crew 7” / “Crew Seven”
7. The email , text, letter or audio message where Eric Shane or Jesse Steed accepted the assignment in The Yarnell Area June 28-30, 2013
======================================
Received
December 4, 2019 via web
————————
Departments
Fire Department
——————–
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
——————-
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
December 4, 2019, 8:34pm
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
December 5, 2019, 11:38am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or much longer due to the volume of requested material and requests already in the queue.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Since these records are older, many of them are in paper version only. We will let you know the fee for the records once this request is next in the queue.
Thank you.
December 27, 2019, 9:22am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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prescott.JPG
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
Send Message
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:27pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 6:43am by the requester
opened request October 15th, 2019 and closed Feb 18, 2020 [127 days]
I challenged it March 3, 2020 when I got back from the first two academies
and again today “appealed” it
Request #19-928
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
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letter from Eric Shane Marsh to Prescott Fire Dept ( PFD ) regarding problems
I would like any records in the notes in N9589 that City of Prescott or PFD has on this letter or note or email
non-commercial pursuant to A.R.S. 39-121.03
electronic email return.
————
Received
October 15, 2019 via web
—————–
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
——————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
October 15, 2019, 11:07pm
====================
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
October 16, 2019, 8:00am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer. Please note if your records are provided electronically there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
October 16, 2019, 8:01am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
non-commercial – electronic return
October 21, 2019, 4:20pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I received this message and would like to know again why others can submit one request and be in the public but mine lay in UNPUBLISHED –
I received this:
Tuesday, October 15, 2019 11:07 PM
Hi there
Your record request #19-928 has been submitted. It is currently under review and is not available for the general public to view.
October 21, 2019, 4:23pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
any updates on any of my public records?
November 10, 2019, 4:39pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on all your public records request. There is only one person at the Fire Department that handles public record requests.
No one has been able to locate the letter you are requesting, thus far.
Thank you.
November 12, 2019, 9:49am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Human Resources.
December 19, 2019, 11:09am
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:26pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
Please be more specific as to what document you are looking for. We are unable to find a document that outlines problems or has a subject line notating “problems”.
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 2:59pm by Melissa Fousek, HR Analyst (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
I would like any records in the notes in N9589 that City of Prescott or PFD has on this letter or note or email is defined in original request.
January 28, 2020, 4:03pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
in original request I enclosed the actual document showing you “why” I used the starting sentence like such by attaching the ADOSH file yet searching for the actual letter ADOSH requested and received in regard’s to Eric and his problems. Look at area what you provided ADOSH then is best answer I can supply.
January 28, 2020, 4:07pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
N9589 does not seem to be a document created by the City. Please be specific as to what letter you are seeking from Eric Marsh and what are the specific problems you are referring to? Do you know the nature of the letter? What should we look for? The term letter regarding “problems” is too vague to conduct a search.
Thank you.
January 28, 2020, 4:15pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Requester + Staff
I am going by what was given and asked by ADOSH and I have confirmed with one of the investigators you provided it so look in that area.
January 28, 2020, 4:17pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms Collura,
It may be more efficient for you to request the letter from your contact since they confirm it was provided to them. If you were to provide us with a copy we can look to match it with our records.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but the requests need to be more specific, so that we can fill them appropriately.
Thank you.
January 29, 2020, 7:58am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
It may be more efficient for you to request the letter from your contact since they confirm it was provided to them. That was years ago – when discussing the fire – and they would not at their home have investigation records ??? but I believe if ADOSH received it then it would have been logged with index log with City of Prescott what you released to them so it would be found on such form. There is a letter in regards to Eric Marsh’s problems that was requested so the index log for stuff released to ADOSH would show it.
If you were to provide us with a copy we can look to match it with our records.
I’m not trying to be difficult, but the requests need to be more specific, so that we can fill them appropriately.
Thank you.
January
January 29, 2020, 9:32am by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
If you were to provide us with a copy we can look to match it with our records.
I’m not trying to be difficult,I truly do not think either side (you or me) are at all being difficult- some areas are too broad because its like a needle in a haystack but the Index Logs of what was released to ADOSH should provide such solution(s)- I think the recent leaks from certain areas within the City coming my way, I have to “fact check” and have documents or they are just leaks but I know I inserted the image showing ADOSH’s file notes. I just want to see your end of it and what yours shows and what was provided to them about Eric’s problems. but the requests need to be more specific, so that we can fill them appropriately.
Thank you.
January 29, 2020, 9:36am by the requester
——————-
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
February 18, 2020, 10:38am
—————–
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a historic permanent record that ADOSH pulled and must be preserved permanently so how is there no records that comply with my request when I even added the actual “source” file ADOSH requested it to my PRR.
I am not understanding how there is this corresponding with ERIC SHANE MARSH and “problems” and yet you do not have it. You are the custodian record holder for the Yarnell Hill Fire and all the Alumni of GMHS including Eric Shane Marsh and this “problem” letter.
Do I need to open a new request and ask for the “record” in another way-
Is there a form or SAFENET you all do for concerns employees have?
March 3, 2020, 6:10pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
I appeal request 19-928
March 20, 2020, 6:27am by the requester
Request #19-725
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
Requesting Records: Non-Commercial Request (Electronic return)
YARNELL “ROSEWIND” FIRE – BUFORDS WORKSHOP GUNSMITH
Location: 22758 S State Route 89, 22772 S State Rt 89, 22816 S State Route 89
Owners Names: [redacted]
Records Requesting: Fire Time Reports (FTR), Crew Time Reports (CTRs), After Action Reviews, Vehicles Used, Time Response Logs, Incident or Injury Reports, Letter or Person stating homeowner was clear to go back on property, Record of ownership and jurisdiction of that Structure Fire or if any entity took over ownership during that fire, copy of your Personal Protection Equipment (PPE) policy(ies), 2019 drill records for this entity, and any other records or photographs tied to this YARNELL structure fire.
any records of mutual aid agreements.
——————-
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
———————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
August 14, 2019, 11:11am
——————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
August 14, 2019, 12:47pm
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I hope my sharing here is helping you Marty
that it was not just you
you should not take it personal
I would send you this all behind the scenes yet when you went up to (2) S130-S190 students and jumped the gun and told those guys get to class when their exams were being graded- the other guy was not and had not mentioned YHF –
You made those guys curious that they came up later and inquired “what was all that about?” and you know what I figured when you walked away and never came back after your meeting to me that told me you have no respect for my hard work I am doing so I figured why not share it with everyone because it is frustrating alone to see how long these requests or how QUICK some get closed soon after opening them…
426 days since I opened my request
Request #19-538
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
==========================
In my research and review of the public records I do not see any of the City of Prescott BILLING department that would need some kind of ‘proof of certification’ since they would be the ones BILLING the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Crew out as a full-rate Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew following ‘certification’ so do I need to make a new request of this or is there a question form to see how come it was not included in my original request the actual sign off of 3 Superintendent Hotshots to make them a full-rate Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew.
Let this serve as either a question to be answered by BILLINGS or make this a new request.
There is a record request that had a time frame I did give Summer 2019 when it was stated appx Nov. 2018 that I was looking for the information to arrive to me…any updates on any of the records nearing to be fulfilled so I know what areas I can best be researching next. Maybe one will be released sooner than another due to how small the request was…
Let me know…
Request #19-538 Clarification attached showing the forms I did not receive when I asked for all of the GMHS files which should have included the 1) Crew Certification Process, (2) Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist (Appendix C), (3) Annual IHC Preparedness Review Roster (Appenidix B), (4) Peer Review for Crew Certification, (5) Preparedness Review Summary and (6) Final Certification which should show names who signed them off to be a Type 1 Inter-agency Hotshot Crew and the CTR and FTRs that should cover the documents I would find my answers.
======================================================
Received
June 20, 2019 via web
—————-
Departments
Fire Department, Finance
———————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
June 20, 2019, 6:55am
===================
Department Assignment Public
Added: Finance.
June 20, 2019, 11:45am
==============
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
July 2, 2019, 8:17am
——————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The finance department has responded that they do not have any records.
I am reading your request and I am not exactly sure what you are asking. Can you please just respond with the direct request. For Example: I am requesting invoices for cars purchased during the year 2018.
In the mean time, I have forwarded the request to Fire. I am hoping they can make sense of it.
Thank you.
July 25, 2019, 3:51pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am at a Humans Factor conference presenting in Washington DC Will be home in 2 weeks to see what request this is Unable to sign in while traveling. Best Regards, Joy A Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
July 25, 2019, 4:04pm by the requester via email
=================================
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am back from D.C. –
Request #19-538 Clarification attached showing the forms I did not receive when I asked for all of the GMHS files which should have included the 1) Crew Certification Process, (2) Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist (Appendix C), (3) Annual IHC Preparedness Review Roster (Appenidix B), (4) Peer Review for Crew Certification, (5) Preparedness Review Summary and (6) Final Certification which should show names who signed them off to be a Type 1 Inter-agency Hotshot Crew and the CTR and FTRs that should cover the documents I would find my answers.
August 1, 2019, 2:24pm by the requester
===========================
Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
CTR- crew time report
FTR- fire time report
August 1, 2019, 2:28pm by the requester
===============================
External Message Requester + Staff
seems the +READ MORE is not working on another request as well.
please advise technical support.
I wanted to read the full request mad part.
September 3, 2019, 1:06pm by the requester
———————-
[because I put the tech support message then I get a reply to Aug 1st 34 days later]
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
This is all that was entered:
In my research and review of the public records I do not see any of the City of Prescott BILLING department that would need some kind of ‘proof of certification’ since they would be the ones BILLING the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Crew out as a full-rate Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew following ‘certification’ so do I need to make a new request of this or is there a question form to see how come it was not included in my original request the actual sign off of 3 Superintendent Hotshots to make them a full-rate Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew.
Let this serve as either a question to be answered by BILLINGS or make this a new request.
There is a record request that had a time frame I did give Summer 2019 when it was stated appx Nov. 2018 that I was looking for the information to arrive to me…any updates on any of the records nearing to be fulfilled so I know what areas I can best be researching next. Maybe one will be released sooner than another due to how small the request was…
Let me know…
Request #19-538 Clarification attached showing the forms I did not receive when I asked for all of the GMHS files which should have included the 1) Crew Certification Process, (2) Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist (Appendix C), (3) Annual IHC Preparedness Review Roster (Appenidix B), (4) Peer Review for Crew Certification, (5) Preparedness Review Summary and (6) Final Certification which should show names who signed them off to be a Type 1 Inter-agency Hotshot Crew and the CTR and FTRs that should cover the documents I would find my answers.
Thank you.
September 3, 2019, 1:15pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Next Request has responded with the following in regards to the glitch you are encountering:
Sorry for the delay in responding. We’ve seen this a couple of times before, usually with a browser error or they have javascript disabled for some reason (in which case they would likely see a number of other problems on the page.) There’s no known glitch on our end though.
Best Regards,
Eric
Thank you.
September 4, 2019, 3:15pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————————
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
any current ETA on request?
…Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season… leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:32pm by the requester
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[ten days later]
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on the requests you made. Unfortunately, none of your requests are simple and require time to research.
Thank you for your patience.
October 15, 2019, 10:34am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Ms. Collura,
Please name the document you are requesting. Your request is confusing. Please do not attempt to explain a document, just let us know what document you are requesting.
Thank you.
December 19, 2019, 3:31pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=========================
as in https://www.nifc.gov/policies/policies_documents/StandardsInteragencyHotshotCrewOps.pdf
page 14 and 15 – reading 1-11- I want the IMBEDDED REVIEW document as stated in above link is what I request but also as stated in September 2019 I want the
1) Crew Certification Process, (2) Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist (Appendix C), (3) Annual IHC Preparedness Review Roster (Appenidix B), (4) Peer Review for Crew Certification, (5) Preparedness Review Summary and (6) Final Certification which should show names who signed them off to be a Type 1 Inter-agency Hotshot Crew and the CTR and FTRs that should cover the documents I would find my answers.
————————-
the interviews only showed a JEFF ANDREWS yet there is no known yet documentation of such and I am looking for the document that this JEFF ANDREWS solely signed off on-
Let me know…
Request #19-538 Clarification attached showing the forms I did not receive when I asked for all of the GMHS files which should have included the 1) Crew Certification Process, (2) Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist (Appendix C), (3) Annual IHC Preparedness Review Roster (Appenidix B), (4) Peer Review for Crew Certification, (5) Preparedness Review Summary and (6) Final Certification which should show names who signed them off to be a Type 1 Inter-agency Hotshot Crew and the CTR and FTRs that should cover the documents I would find my answers.
Thank you.
September 3, 2019, 1:15pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
December 20, 2019, 9:39am by the requester
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you, I did glean your 1-5 list from previous correspondence in this request.
Thanks again.
December 20, 2019, 9:46am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:24pm by the requester
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 5:58am by the requester
there was some folks who planned to go on the Weavers from March 23 ro April 19th, 2020
Doubtful
We got our first possible case in Yavapai
keep in contact here for updates:
http://www.yavapai.us/chs/News
Request #19-510
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
[in regards to Request #19-504 to show Eric Shane Marsh document]
——————————-
I need to add a document so I can get specific answer to recent email inquiry yet email and this area has no area to add a document so how can my question be answered on a specific redacted paper.
Please if this is not a way to upload the document send me the area where prior requests that have a redactions that should not….do I appeal or reask for same documents?
I will add document when I am back in area…I can email it by cell yet your system is not accepting it or showing it.
=======================================
Received
June 10, 2019 via web
————————
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
June 10, 2019, 11:22am
—————————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Sent from ProtonMail mobile
June 10, 2019, 11:24am by the requester via email
—————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
You can just call me at 928-777-1274. If you want to download a document you usually just go into the specific request at click the paper clip icon.
I am going to close this request, because it will confuse staff and it is not a public record request.
Again, give me a call if you need help or have a question.
Thank you.
June 10, 2019, 11:28am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————
Request Closed Hide Public
Dear Requester,
You have been referred for customer service, since your inquiry did not involve the request of a public record.
If you have any further questions regarding services, you may also call our main line at 928-777-1274.
This request is now closed.
Thank you.
June 10, 2019, 11:29am
Marty,
if I pass on
I know I did my best and I did right by all those kids who don’t have a father
I make this public challenge since you were tied to Crew 7
You Marty- MAKE PUBLIC the safety file of CREW 7
thank you
do right and post the file.
Opened 9:54am and then they closed 10:35am it in the same day June 7, 2019
Request #19-504
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
============================================
I need the documents/records to show who was the City of Prescott HR ( Human Resources ) people for years 2002 to 2013 that would VERIFY ’employment history’ for the Fire Departments including Granite Mountain Hotshots.
I would want this to be a non-commercial request with electronic email return.
Just fact check verifying WHO (full names and title) was the ones who verified application process for the above Fire department and Hotshots tied to the City of Prescott-
Thank you,
Joy A. Collura
————————————–
Received
June 7, 2019 via web
=================
Departments
Fire Department, Human Resources
———————–
Point of Contact
Melissa Fousek
——————-
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
June 7, 2019, 9:54am
======================
Department Assignment Public
Added: Human Resources.
June 7, 2019, 10:00am
——————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
June 7, 2019, 10:29am
—————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Hello,
Thank you for your request. Unfortunately the type of record you requested is not kept by the City of Prescott. We do not perform employment verification for seasonal/temporary employees. Thank you.
June 7, 2019, 10:35am by Melissa Fousek, HR Analyst (Staff)
——————————————-
Request Closed Public
Dear Requester,
The documents that you have requested are not on file with City records. This request is now closed.
June 7, 2019, 10:35am
===========================
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
this was not a seasonal or temporary employee but full time so who is responsible to run those checks? Joy A Collura Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
June 7, 2019, 11:05am by the requester via email
—————————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Who is the full-time employee you are referring to?
June 7, 2019, 11:06am by Melissa Fousek, HR Analyst (Staff)
———————————-
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
In my research- various ones on the GMHS that had full time positions and a few with CITY OF PRESCOTT fire dept Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
June 7, 2019, 11:08am by the requester via email
——————————————————-
[then point of contact switches to A. Winemiller] [emphasis added]
———————————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
We do not have a responsive record for your request.
Thank you.
June 7, 2019, 11:26am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
You paid someone to work human resources those years I am asking the full names for those years There has to be payroll records showing a name who worked those years as human resources rep I dont follow how there is no records Human resource employee existed I am requesting any and all records of the full name or names. There has to be some sort of record of that Joy A Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
June 7, 2019, 11:59am by the requester via email
======================================
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
Your request stated, “City of Prescott HR ( Human Resources ) people for years 2002 to 2013 that would VERIFY ’employment history’ for the Fire Departments including Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
This request is asking for a public record document that spans over 11 years of employees in HR that have had duties that have undoubtedly varied from year to year. Your request is asking for a public record document that would show who was designated in HR to VERIFY employment history. The City just does not have a public record document that reflects this information.
This is request is respectfully closed. Please make a new request if you are going to request a different public record document or if you would like to modify your request.
Thank you.
June 7, 2019, 12:13pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————–
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am going through the FOIAs and City of Prescott Public Records and I noticed some files not all had sections redacted in white without any accompanying letter indicating what was being redacted and the code of why as well I attached one of many but let us just answer this one specific being it generally compliments all the other in question- I did not receive page one of ERIC SHANE MARSH check history and note below page 3 and many other pages show WHITE redactions with no added note of why and what was redacted please let me know the code used for the redaction and what was redacted.[ERIC MARSH PROFILE 3624.jpg][ERIC MARSH PROFILE 3625.jpg] thank you Best Regards, Joy A Collura [ERIC MARSH PROFILE 035.jpg][ERIC MARSH PROFILE 036.jpg][ERIC MARSH PROFILE 362.jpg][ERIC MARSH PROFILE 3622.jpg]i Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.
June 8, 2019, 12:26pm by the requester via email
——————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
I do not see any documents attached or downloaded that you referring to in your recent inquiry about redaction. There are a few explanations that could answer why a redaction was applied. It could be that the scanner was scanning two sides of a paper and the back side is blank. Since it seems you are referring to Eric Marsh’s personnel documents, I would think any reactions would be due to privacy interest issues. This is supported in the public record statutes.
Thank you for your inquiry. Please feel free to call instead of writing any questions you have that will not require a public record document.
Thank you.
June 10, 2019, 11:11am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
================================
attachments redone
External Message Requester + Staff
Sent from ProtonMail mobile
June 10, 2019, 11:17am by the requester via email
——————————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
You may not be able to download the document because this request is closed. If you could just email the document to: [email protected]
I will look for your email and attachment there. I don’t want you to use any other request because the communication becomes messy and confusing for staff.
Thanks.
June 10, 2019, 11:39am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————–
External Message Requester + Staff
any further information on this – I was at Butterfields in Scottsdale when you asked me to email and I did then-
Happy Fourth of July to you and all-
July 3, 2019, 10:30pm by the requester
————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
any current ETA on request?
…
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season… leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:31pm by the requester
—————————————
External Message Requester + Staff
I just noted this was closed-
when? and why?
January 25, 2020, 10:23pm by the requester
——————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
this was a pending “challenged” request that was closed yet challenged-
March 20, 2020, 5:26am by the requester
Remember I never was doing a book or movie
I have had people ask me or to also tie into business ventures based on Yarnell
no way.
God comes first
then my health then family and friends
then Yarnell
but I think Yarnell is after God if I recap my realities 😉
my family and friends may agree too – soft smiles.
Here is one for you Marty-
https://odb.org/2020/03/20/slow-for-a-reason
A hot temper signals a cold heart. But the greatness of God’s heart gives us room to patiently live and love with Him.
Reflect & Pray
In what areas of your life do you need to practice being slow to anger? How does it make you feel that God is slow to anger with you?
Father in heaven, fill us with the Spirit of Your graciousness, compassion, mercy, and love so that others can see not just our restraint, but our love because of You.
RTS, YOUR ANSWER TO WHY MY PAGES ARE NOT SHOWN PUBLIC IS IN THIS THREAD BELOW
Request #19-438
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
308 days since request was opened
====================================
Any emails the city of Prescott received and outgoing with name DEBRA and or DEBORAH and or D. “PFINGSTON” and or Jerry Pfingston and or Gerald Pfingston and or Juliann and or Julianne Ashcraft or Ashcroft as well as a current full list to ALL sealed or not the index roster log of who requested about Yarnell Hill Fire and or Granite Mountain Hotshots and or Joy A. Collura and or Joy Collura and or Tex “Sonny” Harold Eldon Gilligan (that is his legal full name so any name near to it like Sonny Gilligan or Tex Gilligan)
————————————————–
Received
May 18, 2019 via web
———————————————
Departments
Fire Department, IT
——————————————
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
————————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
May 18, 2019, 11:38am
==========================
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
May 20, 2019, 8:37am
—————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
We do not fully understand what you are asking when you say, ” .. as well as a current full list to ALL sealed or not the index roster log of who requested about Yarnell Hill Fire and or Granite Mountain Hotshots..”
Are you referring to people asking for Public Record Requests?
Thank you.
May 20, 2019, 9:54am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————————
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Yes 2013 to Current index log of the topics I mentioned for asking for public records request. The person. The items requested. Including mine which are considered sealed and if any other(s) sealed that either shows one the name or the other the content requested. Or how many requests are labelled sealed asking for the topics in original request. Sent from ProtonMail mobile
May 20, 2019, 10:01am by the requester via email
==================================
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the clarification. Please note that public record requests are not “sealed”. They are open for public and staff review at any time they are requested. The City just does not mark each and every request as published to the public, unless it is information that is sought on a regular basis by more than one person. We did start off in our electronic system as publishing all requests, but we received many complaints that is was confusing.
We will continue to work on the request. Please know that it will take a considerable amount of time due to the email element of this request.
Thank you.
May 20, 2019, 5:37pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: IT.
September 3, 2019, 11:31am
——————————
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Do you want the same date range for the emails requested or can provide a new date range. I have noticed there were a lot of the emails that match this description in the older request (18-541). We could run an email harvest from the date of the last email harvest to current.
Please respond at your soonest convenience so that IT can begin their work.
Thank you.
September 3, 2019, 12:44pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [109 days later]
—————————————–
Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Let me go log on to see what request. I’m on my cell Outside…putting in line and doing defensible space. Give me 30 minutes. Best Regards Joy A Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
September 3, 2019, 12:49pm by the requester via email
————————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Do you want the same date range for the emails requested or can provide a new date range.
Joy A Collura’s reply: Since I cannot open +READ MORE to see the entire original request I cannot give you the proper reply yet.
I have noticed there were a lot of the emails that match this description in the older request (18-541). We could run an email harvest from the date of the last email harvest to current.
JOY A COLLURA’S REPLY: I know I did not ask for Doug Harwood last Summer- but until the technical support fixes that +READ MORE so I can review it. I will log off and and try that.
Please respond at your soonest convenience so that IT can begin their work.
Thank you.
September 3, 2019, 1:17pm by the requester
—————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
“Doug Harwood” is not listed in this request. Please give a date range for the emails. Your request is copied below.
Thank you.
Any emails the city of Prescott received and outgoing with name DEBRA and or DEBORAH and or D. “PFINGSTON” and or Jerry Pfingston and or Gerald Pfingston and or Juliann and or Julianne Ashcraft or Ashcroft as well as a current full list to ALL sealed or not the index roster log of who requested about Yarnell Hill Fire and or Granite Mountain Hotshots and or Joy A. Collura and or Joy Collura and or Tex “Sonny” Harold Eldon Gilligan (that is his legal full name so any name near to it like Sonny Gilligan or Tex Gilligan)
Thank you for your response.
September 3, 2019, 1:22pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=====================================
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I would state the time frame would have to be for those names (DEBRA and or DEBORAH and or D. “PFINGSTON” and or Jerry Pfingston and or Gerald Pfingston and or Juliann and or Julianne Ashcraft or Ashcroft as well as a current full list to ALL sealed or not the index roster log of who requested about Yarnell Hill Fire and or Granite Mountain Hotshots and or Joy A. Collura and or Joy Collura and or Tex “Sonny” Harold Eldon Gilligan (that is his legal full name so any name near to it like Sonny Gilligan or Tex Gilligan)) TIMEFRAME: since June 30, 2013 to present. If any of the name(s) fall into that old request 18-541 and any other “open” requests but they need to stay in same request numbers not to confuse the matter plus the one from last year is the one I am really in need to clarify some research I am doing and I know it is a large scope request and I was told when did I need it by and my Washington DC training is done as I did say I wanted it by Summer 2019 yet then you stated your stance on staff and resources but this 18-541 is one of the most important requests I made to verify misinformation.
It will help me greatly in fact checking current “rumors” and as well in my research. It is very hard to go by what people perceive when there is the better way -“documentation”
I am fully aware you have a request from last Summer still working on this type of large scope and that the other request from last Summer would be fulfilled “before” this one.
September 3, 2019, 2:29pm by the requester
———————————-
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I think I get what you said yesterday I’m on 3 antibiotics and clouded lately If there is an old request that has her name than go from that date I made that to now These meds stink yet they are helping. Is that what you meant yesterday that one of the names was already in an old request? If so then I do really want this request to stand individually and not tied to old on the time I made old request over a year ago to present date is the time frames. Back to sleep. I was up all night ill. Sent from ProtonMail mobile
September 4, 2019, 6:27am by the requester via email
———————————————-
any current ETA on request?
….
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season… leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:28pm by the requester
—————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on the requests you made. Unfortunately, none of your requests are simple and require time to research.
Thank you for your patience.
October 15, 2019, 10:36am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 4:46am by the requester
Joy, you posted: “RTS, YOUR ANSWER TO WHY MY PAGES ARE NOT SHOWN PUBLIC IS IN THIS THREAD BELOW”
All I could locate was this from the PFD: “Dear Requester,
Thank you for the clarification. Please note that public record requests are not “sealed”. They are open for public and staff review at any time they are requested. The City just does not mark each and every request as published to the public, unless it is information that is sought on a regular basis by more than one person. We did start off in our electronic system as publishing all requests, but we received many complaints that is was confusing.”
Okay … so then where is the answer to my question?
wow, what are you looking to do
they state it right there sir
they do not mark each and every request as published to the public,
I made all my requests for public view because Marty took it personal and it was never personal and that task is completed.
Off PC I go soon…
It has been 308 days since I opened this one to “fact check and verify” from Feb to May 2019’s Our Investigation, Our Truth – by Pfingston and Hardwood
(Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 1: Why, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 2: A Game of Catch Up – Fire Wins, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 3: Command or Lack of Command Arrives on the Fire, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 4: All the Dominoes Line Up to Tragedy, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 5: Heartbreak, Frustration, Anger,Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 6: Hiking the Path, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 7: THE Granite Mountain Hotshots, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 8: Your Changes, Our Changes,Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 8: Your Changes, Our Changes, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 9: Whose Taking the Risk, Our Investigation, Our Truth – Episode 10: Thank You then it fades into people who have tattoos are warriors ??? nothing else but I listen yet I go and verify and fact check what people say…I am the only one on record who has done this “this long” besides a few journalist in the start are on index logs including the continued hard work John Dougherty did and still does by having this site for all of us to speak freely. )
Pfingston’s podcast:
https://www.iheart.com/podcast/256-our-investigation-our-trut-31084577/
a few closed cases and a very old request still pending coming up on two years as this remains pending and “open”
Request #19-437
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
Non commercial request
electronic received or if not able on some areas than in person inspection.
Name: Doug Harwood [emphasis added]
Area of Records: Prescott National Forest Service from 2000 to 2004 on Engines 30 and 31, and any Prescott Hotshot crew member and any area with this name going historically back to review his quals since he recently is sharing a podcast to world I want to know how he fits in my research.
type of records requesting: master record, red card IQCS qualification card, job applications, evaluations, CTRs,certificates, emails, any fire related records or any other job positions within City of Prescott and training records.
copprr.JPG
copprr2.JPG
—————————-
Received
May 18, 2019 via web
————————–
Departments
Fire Department, Human Resources
————————–
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
—————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
May 18, 2019, 11:29am
————————
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
May 20, 2019, 8:37am
————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Prescott National Forest Service from 2000 to 2004 on Engines 30 and 31 – No records found. The City does not keep Prescott Nation Forest Records.
May 20, 2019, 9:40am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [two days later]
—————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Human Resources.
May 20, 2019, 9:57am
————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
No disciplinary actions on file for Douglas Harwood
May 30, 2019, 1:32pm by Elizabeth Boawn, HR Assistant (Staff) [12 days later]
———————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I see that you are including “emails” in this request. This will slow down the record request release significantly. Email requests and review for public record requests take a very long time. Staff must perform the email harvest and then review each email and any attachments before it is ready for release. Additionally, I do not think emails will show “quals” (employee qualifications). It appears you are directly requesting qualifications and training, which will clearly show Mr. Harwood’s qualifications on file.
Please confirm if you still want the emails.
Thank you.
August 5, 2019, 12:08pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
[KEEP IN MIND MY ONE OLD REQUEST IS OPEN AND A FEW NEW ONES WERE OPENED AND CLOSED BUT THEY RATHER PLAY WITH THIS REQUEST VERSUS FINISHING UP ON MY OLD REQUEST] [80 days later]
—————————————-
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I acknowledge by adding emails – it slows down the process but his public podcasts has me having to review many areas including emails because some of the content of his did not add up. I need to further research public records to learn more to him.
It always bewilders me when a person is blessed enough to take on a city job and even after they leave – how the level of professionalism shows or at times I have seen at times the :lack of professionalism” – I would think if he was to podcast publicly he would have run it by the city who once employed him if it regarded his job position.
I will look into it with emails included and do acknowledge the delays.
Best Regards.
August 5, 2019, 12:55pm by the requester
——————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Hi there
A message is now available for you to see for records request #19-437:
No disciplinary actions on file for Douglas Harwood
View Request 19-437
this email came in Monday, August 5, 2019 12:00 PM but on this page it shows May 30, 2019 1:32pm so alerting the system No disciplinary actions on file for Douglas Harwood does not show on prior PDFs saved of this page so there must be a glitch possibly?
August 5, 2019, 1:39pm by the requester
—————————————-
External Message Requester + Staff
this came today but the site shows different date: see: [copprr.JPG] [copprr2.JPG] Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
August 5, 2019, 1:42pm by the requester via email
—————————————-
any current ETA on request?
….
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season…leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:26pm by the requester
——————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on the requests you made. Unfortunately, none of your requests are simple and require time to research.
Thank you for your patience.
October 15, 2019, 10:37am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [151 days later]
——————————-
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:22pm by the requester
——————————-
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
308 days since I opened this request.
I am looking to see PRR#18-541 completely fulfilled before this request is touched. Then PRR#18-297.
Then this request.
,
I would like to close out and fulfill completely all old any from 2017, 2018 and 2019 this year first before addressing any newer requests.
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 4:30am by the requester
Request #19-297
Request Visibility: Unpublished
OPEN
Received
April 5, 2019 via web
————————
Departments
Fire Department, Legal Department
————————
Requester
PPR Collura List 04-08-2019.JPG
Link to View document
PRR Collura – Log of Requests 04-08-19.docx
=======================
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
—————————
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
April 5, 2019, 11:38am
————————-
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, Legal Department.
April 8, 2019, 12:57pm
————————–
this is a non commercial request
with request to be sent via electronically as items come in
and if it needs to be given to me all at once then please share the documented records where it is written I have to wait until the whole request is done versus getting it as it is prepared and ready. Like a formal guideline of the records request protocols.
This pertains to all requests pending – I would like the formal record where it shows I have to wait until all items are in before getting it. I want to request to release it as it arrives versus this lengthy process. Thank you.
Some requests even though are quite long yet needed and important in my fact checking
This request:
– an index of all requests I have made to date with Prescott and reason it is considered sealed or unpublished.
Any and all records
with the names Crew 7, Granite Mountain Crew 7, IA CrewType 2 IA Crew 7, GM Type 2 IA Crew 7, any Type 2 IA tied to the city of Prescott, Station 7, and Marty Cole’s entire record(s) and master record and red cards and certifications and workmen comp. and any records or notes showing his tie to crew 7. [emphasis added]
defining records to ensure to be including:
any records from the financial department that Prescott has on this crew,
Applications
Crew Time Reports,
Fire Time Reports
Red Cards
Master Records
Certifications
and all worksmens compensations
————————————————-
In prior request you all still had not found the GMHS alumni roster
is it available now?
and in my original request I only got limited data so now being specific I want all records and include the applications for:
Ed Hollenshead
Brendan McDonough anywhere after July 2013 was he employed by the city to present time- those records if any.
Tim McElwee
Jason Bennett
Brandon Bunch
Phil Maldonado
Brad Malm
Travis McElwee
GMHS named Logan
Renan Packer
Nate Malm
Pat McCarty
Tony Sciacca
Jason Clawson
Aaron Hulburd
KC Yowell
Conrad Jackson mentions Mark and he said 12 people from Prescott (11 from Prescott Fire and 1 from Chino Valley) – may I have that record of them being assigned to June 30 to July 2nd 2013.
city of prescott links errors.JPG
——————————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I have updated your email address on ALL requests you have made to the email address you submitted. I understand your anxious to get records requested. Please understand that there is only one person that handles records at the Fire Department and that person is also the Business Manager. To add complication that person was out for the month of March.
Thank you for your patience. We hope to fill your requests as soon as we can.
Have a great weekend.
April 12, 2019, 3:59pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [seven days later]
———————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
You stated the following in your records request, “Conrad Jackson mentions Mark and he said 12 people from Prescott (11 from Prescott Fire and 1 from Chino Valley) – may I have that record of them being assigned to June 30 to July 2nd 2013.” Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster. [emphasis added]
Thank you.
April 17, 2019, 10:30am by Jaimie Sventek, Business Manager (Staff) [12 days later]
——————————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please respond to the following inquiry from staff.
Ms. Collura,
You stated the following in your records request, “Conrad Jackson mentions Mark and he said 12 people from Prescott (11 from Prescott Fire and 1 from Chino Valley) – may I have that record of them being assigned to June 30 to July 2nd 2013.” Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster.
Thank you.
If you do not wish to respond and wish to withdraw this request, please indicate.
Thank you.
July 1, 2019, 4:55pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [88 days later]
——————————————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
PPR Collura List 04-08-2019.JPG
July 1, 2019, 4:58pm
——–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
PRR Collura – Log of Requests 04-08-19.docx
July 1, 2019, 4:58pm
—————————
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am in receipt of the current index logs. I am confused by the “due dates” offered on the open requests for many show April 2019- so please let me know where we stand on them all-
I did note out of all of them the Workmens Comp request does state DUE SOON – I am more interested in the one from last Summer 2018 and its ETA as I am heading on the road soon and would like to have that one to fact check areas vs the one that says DUE SOON which was placed in March 2019. Thank you and Best Regards, Joy A Collura
July 3, 2019, 10:05pm by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
[city of prescott links errors.JPG] I am unable to open your links so I will go log in and manually go to this #19-297 Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
July 3, 2019, 10:08pm by the requester via email
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Please clarify exactly what it is that you are looking for because I am unable to determine that at this time.
Crew Time Reports, Fire Time Reports, Resource Orders
Also, I would like to kindly remind you that the Prescott Fire Department does not have a GMHS alumni roster. [90 days later a kindly reminder from them yet the recent emails I dumped back channel show they redacted them ??? hmmm – just saying]
That was why I specifically added the names since you did not have an alumni roster and those names are included in the request. Thank you and Best Regards, Joy A Collura
July 3, 2019, 10:13pm by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am appealing the Alumni list.
Yes, I have got records from other entities a redacted list of names but I want to compare to your entities records.
yet it was your employees and according to Law…
Record Series Number: 20709
Record Series Title: Employee Summary Records
Record Description:
Listing of current and former employees including name, dates of
employment and job titles used to answer job reference questions.
Record Retention Reqirement: 15 Years
I am appealing this section of this request where I am told the City of Prescott does not have any GMHS alumni roster list.
July 17, 2019, 7:29am by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Cannot open the +READMORE button.
September 3, 2019, 2:03pm by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
any current ETA on request?
…
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season … leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:24pm by the requester
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on the requests you made. Unfortunately, none of your requests are simple and require time to research.
Thank you for your patience.
October 15, 2019, 10:38am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [194 days later]
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:21pm by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just going through OPEN PRRs and sharing I am back from my training courses and here for any inquiries –
480 559 1971 or email on this request.
Yavapai County has its first presumptive positive case of coronavirus COVID-19 in Sedona. (www.prescottenews.com) and Yavapai County issues Proclamation of Countywide Emergency (www.dcourier.com/) on Thursday March 19th, 2020.
I hope everyone stays safe and healthy through this phase and I comprehend this recent news message may affect the PRR areas.
Just letting you know due to this virus- all the rest of my training courses and conferences were cancelled and postponed so I am here if you had any inquiries.
March 20, 2020, 3:34am by the requester
Request #19-75
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
January 23, 2019, 6:50pm
CHANGED EMAIL TO PROTON
————————–
Request #19-261
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
Received
March 27, 2019 via web
Departments
Fire Department, Legal Department
YEAR- 2012 and 2013
LOCATION/DEPARTMENT(S): GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS, PRESCOTT FIRE DEPARTMENT(S)
RECORDS REQUESTING: ALL WORKMEN COMPENSATION RECORDS FOR ANY EMPLOYEE BELONGING TO GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS, PRESCOTT FIRE DEPARTMENT(S) IN 2012 AND 2013 YEARS.
THE HIPPA ALLOWS PROPER REDACTIONS YET REQUESTORS CAN LEGALLY KNOW WHO WAS ON WORKMEN COMPENSATION THEREFORE PLEASE PROVIDE THOSE RECORDS REQUESTED.
THANK YOU
THIS IS AN ELECTRONICALLY REQUEST
IF YOU NEED IT TO BE IN PERSON TO DO INSPECTIONS
PLEASE LET ME KNOW
THIS IS A NON-COMMERCIAL REQUEST.
ALSO HAVE PENDING RECORDS REQUEST- ANY FURTHER TO KNOWING WHEN THOSE ARE READY?
THANK YOU
I ALSO AM UNABLE TO LOG IN TO THEM-
MAYBE BECAUSE WE DID EMAIL CHANGES TO THEM SO PLEASE RESEND THE LINKS TO ALL THE PENDING REQUESTS-
I HAVE THE “PDF”S OF THEM ON MEMORY STICK BUT THERE ARE QUITE A FEW PENDING.
HAVE THE MOST BEAUTIFUL DAY,
JOY A COLLURA
———————————-
Requester
CY2013.pdf
Link to View document
Form 300 – 2012.pdf
=======================
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
===================
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
March 27, 2019, 7:36am
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Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department, Legal Department.
March 27, 2019, 12:54pm
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please specify the email address you want all of your requests to be directed to. We had changed the email address on all of your requests once before. The email address on 3 closed requests are not the same as the one you are using now. Do you prefer the proton email address?
Thanks.
April 8, 2019, 1:37pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
[email protected] was the official for all requests. The other one is closed.
Thank you
Have a beautiful day
Joy
April 8, 2019, 1:49pm by the requester
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I have updated your email address on ALL requests you have made to the email address you submitted. I understand your anxious to get records requested. Please understand that there is only one person that handles records at the Fire Department and that person is also the Business Manager. To add complication that person was out for the month of March.
Thank you for your patience. We hope to fill your requests as soon as we can.
Have a great weekend.
April 12, 2019, 3:54pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
That sounds good I was at a safety summit in San Diego CA and the content at conference made me feel oh yeah soon I will know that answer. Thank you for the update. Joy Sent from ProtonMail mobile
April 12, 2019, 4:01pm by the requester via email
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City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms Collura,
The public entity that keeps workers compensation files is the Industrial Commission of Arizona. There records department can be reached at (602) 542-8925..
Thank you.
April 19, 2019, 2:39pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
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Request Closed Public
City of Prescott’s Reply
Dear Requester,
The documents that you have requested are not on file with City records. This request is now closed.
April 19, 2019, 2:40pm
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Joy’s Repl,y
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
You recently redirected and closed workmens comp request yet I talk to the people…any work related injury or illness you all keep form 300 from osha so I have 2013 from you so there should be the crew 7 and GMHS prior years on file with your entity if I got the final year. So re-asking to appeal and open that request on workmens comp. Public Records Request. Thank you Joy A Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
April 20, 2019, 9:35pm by the requester via email
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
In April I inquired to this request that was closed and never received an update. In my learning last night what are my rights and the publics and the laws I did want to note what I learned:
Record Series Number: 20766
Record Series Title: Workers’ Compensation Records
Record Retention Requirement: 75 years
I should still see a redacted records then- please let me know.
There is a Podcast going around speaking about GMHS injuries as well as one who states there was an antler moment that was hidden then brought to light so I am fact checking for dates of those events others are publicly speaking about. Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood have a podcast speaking about GMHS journey and in that path I am just fact checking. Thank you. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
July 17, 2019, 7:37am by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
still awaiting the “updated” response on this request.
any current ETA on request?
…
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season … leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:23pm by the requester
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Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Still needs answer-
otherwise forwarding to Ombudsman’s office.
January 18, 2020, 8:54am by the requester
===================
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Form 300 – 2012.pdf
January 22, 2020, 4:07pm
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Form 300 – 2012.pdf
January 22, 2020, 4:07pm
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
CY2013.pdf
January 22, 2020, 4:07pm
===================
opened then 24 days later closed and I challenged it and nothing.
298 days later I said I was forwarding it to the Ombudsman- SAME day I received the docs
?????
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CY2013.p d f content:
Summary of Work-Related Injuries and Illnesses
OSHAS Form 300A
YEAR: 2013
Jon Paladini signed off 1-28-14
annual average number of employees 825
total hours worked 1,261,200
City – Prescott
MUNICIPALITY
number of cases:
number of deaths – 19
number of cases days away from work: 14
number of cases with job transfer or restriction: 7
number of cases (other): 20
number of days away from work: 372
total number of days of job transfer or restriction: 418
57 injuries
3 (other illnesses)
and
Summary of Work-Related Injuries and Illnesses
OSHAS Form 300A
YEAR: 2012
Jon Paladini signed off 1-30-13
number of cases days away from work: 13
number of cases with job transfer or restriction: 9
number of cases (other): 7
number of days away from work: 659
total number of days of job transfer or restriction: 251
29 injuries
that is all I got for the day
family wants online
good night
Gary– I know your journey in this life has been harder than mine and I will always be your friend. Thank you for being a part of my journey –but there is more– the good gods of Ireland are not slackers. Nor are we and some rewards even soon should be yours–you are one real and true person that many should know.
Sonny,
I’m pretty sure my journey through life hasn’t been harder than yours (or Joy’s), it’s just that because you (and Joy) are so much stronger than I am…you make it look easy while I make it look harder than it really was.
In addition…I have always had an uncanny knack of making things harder and more complicated than they needed to be or really were. Both you and Joy have been true inspirations to me and I will always be your (and Joy’s’) friend as well. Friends like you (and Joy) are…priceless. 😎 And furthermore…in spite of my best efforts over the past many years…I have added a number of friends to my short Christmas card list and certainly includes you (and Joy).
And that even includes my friendship with my old rival (because he was on another crew, all other hotshot crews were rivals…not brothers because it was a zero sum game) RTS. Even though he was a slacker on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1980 that burned high up near the tree line in the Wasatch Mountains where the Mormons had to hide their womenfolk from the invading Genghis Khan Hotshots (all of us, five hotshot crews from R-3).
I just wish I could have had you (and Joy) on my crew back in the day…we would have veni, vidi, vici all wildfires who got frisky with us! “Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline until we meet!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kjivEm8vxg8
Gary,
You almost got it right. The Murdoch Basin Fire and the SLC National Guard Armory Staging Center was the genesis of the renowned Genghis Khan Hotshots, however, there were, in fact, five Hot Shot Crews from several Regions, and only two from R-3. The world renowned Happy Jack HS (“who were not always happy”) and the likewise world renowned Pleasant Valley Hot Shots (“who were not always pleasant”).
Both of these Crews were eventually disbanded.
Thank you RTS, I wish you would tell the whole story again because everybody may not have read it before and you told it better in the email you sent to me. I know I was standing there, but I also had an uncanny way of tuning out overhead if I wasn’t interested in what they were saying and I usually wasn’t interested in anything they had to say unless it was directly related to my assigned task and area of operations. And even then…I barely listened to them except the part where they usually said, “You’re the professional, do whatever you think is best and call me on the radio if you need anything.” It’s a pretty funny story and is definitely going to be in the greatest tome ever written about WF in general and hotshots in particular. I know thousands of memories were generated during my ten years on the line, but I can barely remember a couple of dozen of them…if I am reminded of most of them. What an E Ticket Rude it was! I will get it right in my book because I am going to cut and paste you’re email without attribution. So…
Who was in the Convair 580 then? Us and Pleasant Valley or us and Payson? If there were only two from R-3, PV and Happy Jack, how did you get there?
Oh…and one more thing. That’s RTS’s inside joke because apparently either the Fire Boss or Plans Chief said, “the Happy Jack Hotshots don’t look very happy and the Pleasant Valley Hotshots aren’t very pleasant.” That’s a real knee slapper! 😂
Although I do realize you were pissing on the grave of the Happy Jack Hotshots just because you know that’s one of my hot buttons.
Pretty funny Gary
It is true both Sonny and I are your friend…can’t wait for Christmas 2020 to see my first Holiday card from you. (PO BOX 572 CONGRESS AZ 85332)
I will let RTS answer on him being called a friend though
You meant the Murdock not Murdoch fire right 😉 hee hee
tomato — tomatoe
hee hee
the crystal clear trout stream area where high clearance vehicles are allowed like your jeep to nowadays you can watch the new forest grow thanks to fine firefighting efforts of the year 1980… 😉
that one?
maybe if you have social media, Gary- you can then answer Brent’s inquiry:
Brent Auvermann
September 7, 2017 at 6:12 PM
Who remembers the Herbie Hamshots and the Genghis Khan Hotshots “Cut Line or Die” t-shirts?
Thank you for the “veni, vidi, vici” comment.
Jeremiah Johnson was out the year I was born- good flick.
“Keep your nose in the wind and your eye along the skyline until we meet!”
The flick reminds me of Sonny – mountain man -(now the highway man) – The story goes that he was a man of proper wit and adventurous spirit suited to the mountains. The mountain’s got it’s own ways. I don’t speak any Flathead you know. 😉
https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Love#/media/File:Earth_heart_smaller.jpg
Yeah…that’s why I referenced it, I think both you and Sonny were born a couple of centuries after your time. I don’t use social media, just my website if I ever get it back up? “Watch your topknot!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7XvaNpWrzNY
Hee. hee!
“T’weren’t the Mormons” Hee hee
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mcpqTWHsCHU
Joy,
Oh…and one more thing. I have been paying more attention to rifle calibers lately and you were right all along. The entire military industrial complex agrees with you. The 5.56 NATO is now considered to be an anemic, underpowered and an ineffective round that is unsuitable for today’s battlefield and they are currently actively searching for a more powerful caliber to replace it with. And I was a complete IDIOT for suggesting and then defending the .300 Blackout (or the .300 Whisper) especially the subsonic version that’s can be suppressed since you practically have to be standing next to somebody to kill them with that bullet. So..I am only going to buy guns that are chambered fir the 7.62×51 mm NATO/.308 Winchester from now on because you can buy that ammo in bulk because it’s still used by the military and is cheap compared to the 6.5 Grendel or anything else and I don’t have the patience to reload although I do have the time 😂
And I was joking the other day about going on line and buying a few thousand rounds for the coming apocalypse, but just try to buy some today. Millions of rounds have been bought up in the last couple of weeks and nothing is available anywhere. So…somebody’s not kidding around about the coming civil war and general breakdown in society. They are prepping big time with assault rifles and ammo in addition to making it impossible for me to get my groceries from Costco…or anywhere else for that matter.
Although I have always liked the Ghostbusters version of
Veni, vidi, vici the best.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-xMGRA_FePw
Oh…and I don’t really even have a Christmas Card list, it’s just a figure of speech. So…
Joy, you just put to shame those that would accuse you of anything nefarious. Even I did not know the absolute depths you went to in this ordeal of attempting to get facts that should be without redaction to reveal the events involving the deaths of the young heroes that followed what they believed to be competent leaders of their crew. The young ones that have suffered so terribly will know of your efforts. Your Irish Gods that look over your will reward you and old Irish Jesus smiles in heaven at your true efforts. Fuck the liars, they deserve their sleepless nights. Sleep well Joy-you are not a slacker.
It is hard–when someone kills your best friend yet you know but can not have 100% proof what do you do. Nothing of course. Gut feelings are real, believe me. I think it is a given in all of us until when we are young the schools teach us not to trust them. But some rebel–Joy would be and example as are most psychics. Sometimes we have to go back to the drawing board and realize the drawings we were directed to draw were not those we had in mind. But a few did not draw those directed but drew the reality of their minds. They became the Psychics–most of us had later to consult them since our latent abilities had been diminish.
But in this world there are many false leaders. My opinion since George Washington things have diminished in our leaders to the point they can not admit to authoritative ordered blow jobs or smoking weed yet the public goes along with these so called leaders and their wives that want to be the follow up leaders. It is crazy indeed to a country boy with simple thinking.
Well bat hides in sciences of the mind will help, but honest down earth truth beats all the bullshit ten Universities could provide in the twilight zone of maybe. So do not distrust your common sense or let the stink of common lies dim your good smell of truth. Your integrity is gold you may not see here and now.
Request #1[redacted]
Request Visibility: Unpublished
CLOSED
Received
November 2, 2018 via web
Departments
Fire Department
Point of Contact: Jaimie Sventek
————————————
I need this number and request to remain redacted because I plan to apply for some sort of position there and I do not want it to interfere with my chances by placing it public.
——————————
All documents and records on the vehicle(s) and the staff that drove those vehicle(s) and all staff from Station [redacted] involved with:
Date: June 30 2013
Location: Yarnell Hill Fire
Working and or Not and Just Present Using Engine Stationed in Yarnell June 30 2013
Travel Logs, Resource Orders, Mutual Aid, Under Table Agreements, E Number, and all records… including any red card certifications or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records…Crew Time Report (CTR) – SF261 and, Fire Time Report (FTR) – OF 288 and, the Fire IQCS Master Record
The same records for same date June 30 2013 (Travel Logs, Resource Orders, Mutual Aid, Under Table Agreements, E Number, and all records… including any red card certifications or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records…Crew Time Report (CTR) – SF261 and, Fire Time Report (FTR) – OF 288 and, the Fire IQCS Master Record) for S [redacted] .
Non-commercial- either in person appointed inspection of records and take my own notes or electronically as we have been doing. thank you, Joy
—————
City Of Prescott
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
The Prescott Fire Department has located Mr. [redacted]’s Master Record. The Master Record has been sent for review for any possible redactions that may be needed. We are still researching the additional documents requested. Thank you.
November 20, 2018, 1:08pm by Jaimie Sventek, Business Manager (Staff)
[18 days later]
———————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Received and Read Recent Communication.
Okay, sounds fine.
Wishing you all a HAPPY THANKSGIVING!
November 20, 2018, 4:39pm by the requester
===================
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I noticed there is 31 public records but the one on Willis and some others I asked and was to have a Nov. 30th expectation time frame are not in that list- can you re-send that link to that request.
Thank you
November 30, 2018, 5:09pm by the requester
==============
City Of Prescott
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am sorry, but I do not understand your message. The requests you have made are taking quite a bit longer to complete. Once each request is ready we will release documents into the requests and you will be notified via the system. We may be updating or extending time frames for completion as we continue to work. We don’t want to set them out too far, because we want to keep a close tab on the progress. Therefore, you may see the Due Date times change. The due dates are targets for check in and possible completion.
Thanks.
December 3, 2018, 11:26am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
[31 days later]
—————
City Of Prescott
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Just an update. This staff is still working on the emails. Progress is closer, but still not done. Unfortunately, pressing matters come up throughout the day interrupting progress. This staff hope to be done fairly soon.
Thank you.
September 13, 2019, 1:30pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [316 days later]
————————-
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
any current ETA on request?
…
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail and also be aware I will be on email area maybe three times this Season … leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:17pm by the requester [338 days later]
—————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on the requests you made. Unfortunately none of your requests are simple.
Thank you for your patience.
October 15, 2019, 10:32am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) [348 days later]
——————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Details Public
January 7, 2020, 8:57am
——————
Request Closed Hide Public
Dear Requester,
Please find that documents have been made available.
Per Fire records some of the records requested are outside the retention schedule. The Fire Department doesn’t have any further information or records to support this request. Additionally, they don’t have any knowledge of an Engine or personnel being at a Yarnell station.
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
January 7, 2020, 9:14am [432 days later]
———————
Joy’s reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Good afternoon.
Wow, 431 days after I submitted my request #1[redacted], you have a “Retention Schedule” so please allow me the privilege to see this retention schedule. This is so I can make sure not to make future requests that you took that much time to come back and tell me that so I avoid asking on certain topics in the future. Once I have that copy – I can accompany it with my Station [redacted], fact checked documents I already have in my possession.
And for my records, when I went through the City of Prescott to see what they have – they have a “retention schedule” they go by but it is unknown to the requester what that is.
Please submit a copy of the retention schedule that you refer to in your response.
You had plenty of time to respond.
I am disappointed it took you that long to respond. With this new revelation stating the “Retention Schedule” and just state that because 405 days ago on November 20. 2018 1:08pm when alerting me of Mr. [redacted],’s Master Record being redacted would have been the appropriate time to do such on Station [redacted],.
Thank you for your time
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura
January 7, 2020, 11:45am by the requester
———————-
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for your response. This record request is closed, however you may submit a new request for the record retention schedule if you wish.
Thank you.
January 7, 2020, 12:52pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————–
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
You stated:
Additionally, they don’t have any knowledge of an Engine or personnel being at a Yarnell station.”
—for the record, I never stated “Yarnell station”but I did state the town of Yarnell. I was very clear on date and location and items I requested. I just wanted it for the record noted I never mentioned Yarnell Station.
January 8, 2020, 12:02pm by the requester
—————————-
External Message Requester + Staff
correction
nvr is never
January 8, 2020, 12:03pm by the requester
——————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:56 AM
Arizona Ombudsman – Citizens’ Aide Complaint was formally filed today and I attached this request as PDF my original request, as well as #20-14 Retention Schedule, #20-17 document of items CITY OF PRESCOTT has purged since 2013 and I also submitted to ARIZONA STATE LIBRARY, ARCHIVES AND PUBLIC RECORDS to get some more clarity.
I feel the response of just RETENTION SCHEDULE 431 days later was not sufficient on a National Tragedy “Historical Significance” records I was asking for and so I want someone to know we are having this concern(s) and reason I added the other(s) to the loop.
January 8, 2020, 1:38pm by the requester
——————–
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Laura is investigating this now-
It forwarded to her-
I will enclose the snip it that was sent to me Thursday, January 9, 2020 1:16 PM
by Richard Carroll
Records Analyst
Arizona State Library, Archives and Records Management
attach snip it on left of screen
January 9, 2020, 1:55pm by the requester
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
The return investigation results were hard for me to read. I do not know why you used RETENTION SCHEDULE on the types of requests I made-
According to C-38116, C-38117 (Office of the State Forester) they should be permanent those tied to YHF.
So as of today- officially the areas that were looked into for CITY OF PRESCOTT:
“The City of Prescott has not transferred anything to our facility since the 1970s.”
that is the latest update.
January 9, 2020, 6:31pm by the requester
———-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Update.
I knew it was somewhere the link I needed to provide earlier but I had other external areas to address but here is the document that shows YHF is not under the normal guidelines:
(attached)
https://apps.azlibrary.gov/records/general_rs/GS-1024.pdf
January 9, 2020, 6:49pm by the requester
—————
External Message Requester + Staff
would not allow attachment because closed so page 7
January 9, 2020, 6:49pm by the requester
————–
External Message Requester + Staff
this request was formally filed as a complaint with the State / Ombudsman
January 18, 2020, 8:55am by the requester
———————-
External Message Requester + Staff
Has the Ombudsman notified you yet on Request 18-787?
January 25, 2020, 10:07pm by the requester
—————
External Message Requester + Staff
made new request.
January 28, 2020, 6:11pm by the requester
—————
External Message Requester + Staff
Just curious has the Ombudsman notified you yet on this Request 18-787?
March 19, 2020, 5:04pm by the requester
———————————–
From and including: Friday, November 2, 2018
To, but not including Tuesday, January 7, 2020
Result: 431 days
It is 431 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date.
Or 1 year, 2 months, 5 days excluding the end date.
Or 14 months, 5 days excluding the end date.
—————————————–
If something happens to me this request is the most important of many I have done
I redacted as much as I could and I know some people know the content even with redaction yet I am sad about this and the Ombudsman ignoring it all these months
so RTS if you can PULL STRINGS to any request THIS IS THE ONE…
it hurts me BAD how much Point of Contact Jaimie Sventek will go to do their best to refrain from releasing and this is an area that SHOULD HAVE been released… HURTS BAD!
Well…you certainly got inside their heads. 😂
“Dear Requester,
Thank you for your response. This record request is closed, however you may submit a new request for the record retention schedule if you wish.”
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
October 3, 2018, 11:32am
opened the next day after Tim’s-
1 month, 28days after I filed the request before this one – Request #18-541 –
Request #18-697
Request Visibility: Unpublished
I am requesting the following Mark [redacted] and Co[redacted] for the time period June 28 through July 2, 2013:
(1) the Crew Time Report (CTR) – SF261 and,
(2) Fire Time Report (FTR) – OF 288 and,
(3) the Fire IQCS Master Record and,
(4) Red Card Qualifications Certifications/Records for Prescott Fire Department (PFD)
(5) Task book
(6) Annual Evaluation Reviews for 2013, 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, 2018 (if done)
This is a non commercial request to “in person inspect” the records or electronically send them as we have been doing.
———-
Received
October 3, 2018 via web
Departments
Fire Department, Human Resources
——————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
To clarify because the media states Co[redacted] but the one I am requesting the file for is appx. [redacted] and born as [redacted] Co[redacted] and went by an email in 2016 [redacted] @ prescott-az.gov and in 2011 [redacted] @ cityofprescott.net to ensure I get proper file. thank you, Joy
October 3, 2018, 6:25pm by the requester
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City of Prescott Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The City of Prescott deems the majority of an employee’s personnel records confidential. The City is a political subdivision of the State of Arizona. The State of Arizona limits review of State employee personnel files made under a public records request to the following:
Name of employee;
Date of employment;
Current and previous class titles and dates of appointment to the class;
Current and previous agencies to which the employee has been assigned and the location of the main office for each agency;
Current and previous salaries and dates of each change;
Name of employee’s current or last known supervisor; and
Records that are reasonably necessary or appropriate to maintain an accurate knowledge of the employee’s disciplinary actions, including the employee responses to all disciplinary actions, unless providing this information is contrary to law. See Arizona Administrative Code Title 2, Ch 5.
Additionally, the privacy interests an employee has in other aspects of his/her personnel file militates against providing the entire file. It is also in the City’s best interests in having a full and open employee evaluation process to limit provision of the entire personnel file. Thus, the City’s policy in providing personnel records made pursuant to the Arizona Public Records laws is the same as required by the State of Arizona pursuant to the Administrative Code cited above.
The City will provide what is available for release.
Thank you.
June 21, 2019, 1:57pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Co[redacted] Master Record.pdf
June 21, 2019, 2:58pm
————————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
[redacted] Certifications.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:01pm
———————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book (Cover only) – IC – Type 4.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:02pm
——————————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Acting Captain.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:03pm
—————————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Acting Engineer.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:09pm
————————
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Advanced FF-Squad Boss (FFT1)-redacted.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:10pm
—————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Probationary FF.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:11pm
—————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Strike Team Leader (Engine Boss).pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:15pm
—————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Task Book – Single Resource Engine (Wildland)-redacted.pdf
June 21, 2019, 3:35pm
—————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Test – Captain’s APPER ICS Simulation.pdf
Test – Drivers Test 2002.pdf
July 15, 2019, 12:59pm
——————–
Department Assignment Public
Added: Human Resources.
July 15, 2019, 1:20pm
———————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Collura PRR 18-697 – Status.docx
July 16, 2019, 1:33pm
—————-
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Collura PRR 18-697 – Status.docx
July 16, 2019, 1:33pm
——————–
Request Closed Hide Public
Dear Requester,
Human Resources and the Fire Department have checked their files and have nothing more to provide. As notified previously, Annual Evaluations will not be released.
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
July 16, 2019, 1:50pm
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I, Joy A. Collura, would like to “Appeal” the closing of this request.
Annual “Performance Evaluations” should fall into the category of “Reasonable Indication of Disciplinary Actions” –
Actual “Disciplinary Actions” against public employees end up with their own ‘paper trail’
THAT is what the law does say – we have a “reasonable right” to know about.
I would think I am entitled to be given a “reasonably accurate description” of any/all “Disciplinary Actions” that might have taken place with regards to a City employee… but simple “Performance Evaluations” I can see do NOT fall into that category and remain “protected”
unless I was law enforcement, another City or State agency, or I had that employee’s permission to see their entire personnel file.
If there have been NO ‘official’ “Disciplinary Actions” against the named employees than we can leave it at that…yet would like written note of such.
I also understand I received more documentation on ERIC SHANE MARSH than ADOSH and SAIT SAIR received or they did receive the same and they made public limited information as some from those areas confirmed I do have the “most” data on that man and above what they received/was shown and I still have not even opened my records on ERIC SHANE MARSH from other entities because yours seemed to be very strong as I fact checked with others his file in completion.
I was probably able to get so much of GMHS’s Personnel File because they were
REQUIRED to supply that stuff to the official State-appointed INVESTIGATORS and they were dead and that was why I assumed I can receive others the same manner since I had the GMHS ones. My apologies.
Best Regards,Joy A. Collura
July 16, 2019, 7:36pm by the requester
————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
In regards to another area I am appealing-
Ma[redacted] retired April 2014 –
ARIZONA STATE, COUNTY AND MUNICIPALITY ( CITY )RECORD RETENTION REQUIREMENTS
Official Arizona Secretary of State Document states the REQUIRED legal RETENTION PERIODS for various kinds of Arizona State, County and Municipal City RECORDS
ARIZONA STATE LIBRARY, ARCHIVES AND PUBLIC RECORDS
A DIVISION OF THE ARIZONA SECRETARY OF STATE
Contact: Dr. Ted Hale, Director – Arizona State Archives and Records Management
Schedule Number: GS-1006
General Records Retention Requirements
https://apps.azlibrary.gov/records/general_rs/GS-1006.pdf
Record Series Number: 20704
Record Series Title: Employee Personnel Records, Official copy
Record Retention Requirement: 5 years
Record Series Number: 20706
Record Series Title: Employee Personnel Records, Contract Employees
Record Retention Requirement: 6 years
How long MUST any state, county or municpal ( City ) agency keep ALL records
related to any “Historical Wildfire”?
Record Series Number: 10393
Record Series Title: Wildfire Report Records – Historical
Record Retention Requirement: PERMANENT ( FOREVER )
It has not yet been six years since Ma[redacted] retired. I would like to appeal this section of the request as well.
July 17, 2019, 7:23am by the requester
——————–
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff has performed a second check for records pertaining to your request. Nothing further is found.
All requirements have been met.
Thank you.
July 23, 2019, 10:22am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————
External Message Requester + Staff
I am unable to log in for two weeks to see what request this regards- I will log in as soon as I get back from DC and those conferences. Thank you Joy A Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
July 23, 2019, 11:01am by the requester via email
=========
Requester
Click here to show/hide folder contents Jackson
Collura PRR 18-697 – Status.docx
Link to View document
Task Book – Single Resource Engine (Wildland)-redacted.pdf
————————-
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
————————-
From and including: Wednesday, October 3, 2018
To, but not including Tuesday, July 16, 2019
Result: 286 days
It is 286 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date.
Or 9 months, 13 days excluding the end date.
Just showing the turn around time for them.
Plus second request closed after OPEN Request #18-541 –
I CHALLENGED THIS REQUEST BEING CLOSED – nothing came of my appeals ???
Going to the next request
1 month, 27days after I filed the request before this one – Request #18-541 –
they received this Request #18-694 – October 2, 2018 via web and they were able to fully complete it in 57 days.
Mr. Cole, I never saw the agitation from Tim ever…just curious…he never showed me the same behavior for being a public servant. So how come, sir?
Request #18-694
Request Visibility: Unpublished
Requesting “Complete” Personnel File For:
[redacted] (retired) Tim [redacted] ;
may it be for Law or Fire Departments for the City of Prescott or Liaison Officer Contracted Out
and including any red card certifications or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records. I want the Fire Time Report Of-288 / Crew Time Report if any for this Tim [redacted] as well as his task book; copy of it.
and I said “all” yet if too large of a scope I am looking for this time frame: June 28 thru July 1st 2013, June through August 2014 on Fire Time Report Of-288 / Crew Time Report or any law officer records with such dates. But looking to “all” in the Personnel file to see when his journey began in different areas.
Non-commercial- either in person appointed inspection of records and take my own notes or electronically as we have been doing. thank you, Joy
=========
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Law or Fire Departments for the City of Prescott or Liaison Officer Contracted Out
PLEASE NOTE CORRECTION
Law AND/or Fire Departments for the City of Prescott AND/or Liaison Officer Contracted Out
October 2, 2018, 10:44pm by the requester
—————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
CORRECTION:
and including any red card certifications AND/or any type of Fire related certifications and any Master Records. I want the Fire Time Report Of-288 / Crew Time Report if any for this Tim [redacted] as well as his task book; copy of it.
and I said “all” yet if too large of a scope I am looking for this time frame: June 28 thru July 1st 2013, June through August 2014 on Fire Time Report Of-288 / Crew Time Report or any law officer records with such dates. But looking to “all” in the Personnel file to see when his journey began in different areas.
October 2, 2018, 10:45pm by the requester———–
====================
Department Assignment Public
Added: Fire Department.
October 3, 2018, 7:45am
——————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Details Public
November 27, 2018, 3:05pm
————————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
F[redacted] _Training Record.pdf
November 27, 2018, 3:06pm
=========================
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
We have compiled records for your request. I have received the following message from the Fire Department:
“I do not have anything for Tim as he wasn’t our direct employee. IQS records are released and sent to a federal clearing house when a person leaves an organization and we no longer have access to any type of record for that person.” As far as Fire is concerned, we have no information to provide for this request.”
Thank you.
November 27, 2018, 3:09pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=============================
Request Closed Public
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
November 27, 2018, 3:09pm
======================
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Timothy F[redacted] pdf
November 27, 2018, 3:35pm
—————————
External Message Requester + Staff
I will look at this request file soon. I started to skim but I have a full schedule next few days thank you.
November 28, 2018, 9:08pm by the requester via email
========================
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thanks. The City is finished with the request. It should remain available to you for at least one year. You are free to download the files and save them to your own computer and look at them at your leisure.
November 30, 2018, 9:26am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=====================
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
REPLY I GOT WAS:
Dear Requester,
We have compiled records for your request. I have received the following message from the Fire Department:
“I do not have anything for Tim as he wasn’t our direct employee. IQS records are released and sent to a federal clearing house when a person leaves an organization and we no longer have access to any type of record for that person.” As far as Fire is concerned, we have no information to provide for this request.”
Thank you.
MY REPLY: I am not understanding. Was he a CITY OF PRESCOTT FF or was he contracted out to STATE or was he a FEDERAL employee as a Wildland Firefighter ( WF ) and that was why you do not have any documents? I was told he was as a CITY OF PRESCOTT FF and at one time CITY OF PRESCOTT Police Officer. So I request an IQCS and or IQS “master record” for this person Tim F[redacted] and the Fire Dept is stating to me there is no records for him there at all. Just would like clarity.
November 30, 2018, 5:04pm by the requester
——————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I called HR and they confirm he was never listed in a position with the City as a Fire Fighter. Unfortunately, they do not have a database that compiles a report listing all of an employee’s position due to the age of the record.
Thanks.
December 3, 2018, 11:12am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——————
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
1681 – F[redacted] , TIMOTHY – TRANSFER-GL ACCOUNT – 7-17-2011_Redacted.pdf
May 9, 2019, 10:36am
—————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Nov 2018 it was stated file is available for 1 year but now it has changed to 1 month. I am in fire season and would either need that extended the expiration date or find out why in same request it says 1 year then down to 1 month. Please explain. Joy A. Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
May 9, 2019, 10:57am by the requester via email
=====================
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
This request will remain available for one year pursuant to state record retention. However, it is currently set for review of documents that were released to assure the documents meet release criteria. It appears that by state law, only certain documents can be released as public record. Therefore, some documents have been retracted and will be re-released if they meet the criteria set out by the Arizona Administrative Code and Public Record Law regarding public record request for personnel records.
Thank you.
May 9, 2019, 11:48am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
The City of Prescott deems the majority of an employee’s personnel records confidential. The City is a political subdivision of the State of Arizona. The State of Arizona limits review of State employee personnel files made under a public records request to the following:
Name of employee;
Date of employment;
Current and previous class titles and dates of appointment to the class;
Current and previous agencies to which the employee has been assigned and the location of the main office for each agency;
Current and previous salaries and dates of each change;
Name of employee’s current or last known supervisor; and
Records that are reasonably necessary or appropriate to maintain an accurate knowledge of the employee’s disciplinary actions, including the employee responses to all disciplinary actions, unless providing this information is contrary to law. See Arizona Administrative Code Title 2, Ch 5.
Additionally, the privacy interests an employee has in other aspects of his/her personnel file militates against providing the entire file. It is also in the City’s best interests in having a full and open employee evaluation process to limit provision of the entire personnel file. Thus, the City’s policy in providing personnel records made pursuant to the Arizona Public Records laws is the same as required by the State of Arizona pursuant to the Administrative Code cited above.
May 9, 2019, 11:49am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————-
External Message Requester + Staff
“read more” button failed here.
I have filed and downloaded the request so this can be archived.
September 3, 2019, 2:24pm by the requester
Requester
Click here to show/hide folder contents F[redacted] HR
F[redacted] _Training Record.p d f
Link to View document
Timothy F[redacted] .p d f
===============
on to the next request – this one was 57 days to be done and was one that was completed while Request #18-541 was open. I want to see “how many” were opened after Request #18-541 – and completed,
Joy asked me downstream what I thought about Covid-19 and I told her at the time I was just really worried about everybody, especially our medical professionals who are fighting on the front because it looks like it could be bad. As it is turning out, that was the understatement of the year. In the meantime I have thought about it a lot and guess what? I have more to write on the subject and because I am in a high risk category…I feel especially qualified to state my opinion.
In the Eskimo culture in Alyeska (the Great Land & my birthplace in the U.S. Territory of Alaska) back in the old days during the brutal winters if there wasn’t enough food to keep everyone in the family alive, the old people would walk out into the storm and allow themselves to be frozen to death. That is exactly what I think we should have the courage and resolve to do now rather than destroy the economy of the entire country and cost 7 million people their jobs in the restaurant business alone.
We just can’t save all of the people all of the time. When General Eisenhower was told the expected casualty rate (which I’m sure was a huge number) because almost 1000 men died just practicing for the D-Day amphibious assault beachhead landing, he didn’t say, “Well, we can’t do that because we will lose to many young soldiers and airmen in the prime of their lives”, he just picked out a date to order to order tens of thousands of young men to go and die in addition to those who would be horribly maimed.
“Over 425,000 Allied and German troops were killed, wounded or went missing during the Battle of Normandy. This figure includes over 209,000 Allied casualties, with nearly 37,000 dead amongst the ground forces and a further 16,714 deaths amongst the Allied air forces.”
So…rather than see our country destroyed, I am more than willing to take my chances and if it my time…it’s my time. And yes…I do know that it isn’t just people with an average age of 80 usually with multiple underlying health issues who are dying, but that describes the vast majority of the dead so far. This is the first time in my I have ever gotten a flu vaccine shot. And I thought to myself, “If everyone is going to freak out about Covid-19, the least I can do is get a cheap, easily available flu shot since the flu kills up to 50,000 Americans every year and only 40% of our population even bothers to get a flu shot.” How damn dumb is that? Don’t answer that…it’s a rhetorical question.
Heyrðu! Þar lít ek nu föður mín.
Heyrðu! Þar lít ek nu móður mín,
Ok brœðu mín, ok systur.
Heyrðu! Þar lít ek langfeðgaættir af öndverðu.
Heyrðu! Þau kalla at mér,
Þau bidja mér at koma vel í lag í Helgafjöllin,
Þar er úfriðarmönnum sigrask,
Ok dugandmennina lifi at eilífu.
Ok sýttum vér ekki, en fagnum vér þeim,
Er höfðu lofligum létusk.
“Lo there do I see my father; Lo there do I see my mother, my sisters and my brothers; Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo, they do call me, they bid me take my place among them, in the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ksaOuKspmIg
I mean…what are people in nursing homes living for anyway? There are worse things in life than death and living in a nursing home would be one of them. So..WTF…Over?
“The person is smart, people are dumb, panicky, dangerous animals and you know it” I’m not even worried about COVID-19, I am worried about what people will do to each other because our society is heading for a bonafide melt down.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kkCwFkOZoOY
“In your darkest hour when the demons come, call on me, brother, and we will fight them together. Others don’t know what we have faced, but our brothers are here when we need them.”
This is the World War of our time and we should be willing to sacrifice just as other generations have sacrificed for us. Nobody lives forever. So…
I second that Gary. This is ridiculous–I went to Wal Mart and the grocery shelves were almost empty and people shopping like this is the end of time. This is really not a time for the yournger set to panic and as far as the older people this virus is such that it is going to get to most of them anyway.
China has always been happy to sacrifice population and has practiced population control for years where it has even been unlawful to have beyond one child. So Mao and company as all good Communist regimes are happy to get rid of especially dissidents and in China that might be a great amount of the population–and as far as the rest of the world they are dissidents too.
However I am not one to walk out in the wind and freeze to death considering I have had my taste of death more than once. I was quite happy being dead the first time, although that ride down the tunnel the last time was not to my liking, once I was dead then it was all good again.
You can kill me but not eat me–unless you are a cannibal and with all the chemicals from the retardant and chemicals in the food and add the daily chem trails spread here by 4 regular parallel jets, I might be a dangerous to your health meal.
My son will be here shortly–he says Dad I am coming to see you because I will be afraid it might be months before I see you again–he being an RN thinks he might infest me with the disease once it hits Las Cruces. It is already north of here and in Juarez, Mexico even closer than the next town north. I am not worried but cautious as well knowing if I wanted to commit suicide all I need do is hang around the crowds. This is a designer killer virus aimed at the sick and the elderly.
Governments are good at these kinds of experiments and as Gary says Eisenhower did not worry about killing a few thousands of soldiers since it was a necessary action to get the job done during WW2. Bush 1, 2 , Obama and now Trump have not minded sacrificing a few thousand young soldiers in Afghanistan and Iraq either. Well there is a big opium thing now in Afghanistan and we need those opiates–they are good for making morphine and other drugs so Big Pharma needs these products. And we damn sure are going to protect the Bush and friends interests in oil in Iraq.
Some FOIA documents that took law suits and three years to obtain show now that billions were sent to Afghanistan to rebuild it –more money than we spent on the Marshall plan to rebuild Europe after it was blasted to hell. And that is with adjustment to inflation. Yet the new documents have the low level military leaders confused as to even who the enemy is and how to spend the money as they blast away at the supposed enemy. There is money to be made in these overseas projects but they dig deeply into the taxpayer pockets. Yet he is unaware and scratching his head why so much dinero of his check is taken away before he sees it.
Once in a while these political hacks point the finger at each other, especially about election time. Go look at Guiliani’s report on the Obama scam. Well I think more than he went out of office and now is living in high cotton. Guiliani has proof that Obama provided 5 billion in aid to
the Ukraine–Biden and son part of the deal? Well when 3 billion could not be accounted for in the Ukraine, the US embassy under Obama insisted there be no Ukranian investigation in the matter. That only tells us they should have insisted on an investigation or else someone is dividing up tax payer monies and if you are insisting on no investigation then you must be one of the partakers.
But somehow our good trusting American public makes no complaint–the documents are provided on line by a journalist on the Washington Post–I wonder how long he will have a job and maybe even what his odds of survival are.
This government thing has gotten out of hand when even your FS and State officials are game to cheat and lie in such benign public positions. Sorry folks, but my vote on the next election would be just as I would vote for Willis, Amanda or any of the Prescott cronies and official investigators of the GMHS crime.–a big fat NO vote.
And RTS don’t feel like you don’t have company in the governments refusal to provide FOIA reports. It took that Journalist 3 years and several law suits to pry the documents loose with all kinds of excuses, yet the ass running the FOIA releases said he provides the documents in a timely fashion and is very transparent. What a pack of liars we have representing us.
Amen brother. I just tried to go in Costco and the line was wrapped around the building, so I left. OMGosh! Then I went to Wal-Mart and the news has gotten it right. The shelves where I wanted to get some things were cleaned out…all bare.
OMGosh x 2!
Although I’m pretty sure that if a bakers dozen of heart attacks, a 12 gauge shotgun blast to your back that comes out your chest, plus all of them sneks you probably almost got bit by, plus everything else can’t kill you, I wouldn’t worry about COVID-19 if I were you!
I can’t wait until the sheep start eatin’ each other!
Hey Sonny,
Here is a link to that photo I found to show you. It’s a photo of me in my fathers mining gear out at the mining camp hell hole at Ambrosia Lake. The trailer in the background isn’t ours because like I wrote before, my sister remembers we used to run around and collect leaflets dropped by an airplane to fold up and stuff between the cracks in the boards of the company “house” we lived in. What a cute kid! Am I right?
I also included a photo of my oldest daughter trying to walk in my size 15 Whites with 14 inch tops. I was still on the Santa Fe Hotshots and when I came home from work and kicked off my boots, she would put them on and try to walk. She got better at it as she got older. I wish I would either have turned on a light or had a camera with a flash because the photos is bad, but…
I wonder if accountants take photos of their kids with their pocket protectors in their shirt pockets?
Buy an Apple computer everyone said. They are made so much better they won’t get infected by viruses and they never crash everyone said. They are intuitive everyone said and therefore really easy to learn how to use everyone said. You will love your Mac everyone said.
And ever since I took the leap of faith after my last PC crashed for the last time I have been saying, C’mom Mac…WTF…Over? The latest is that the website building program I spent years learning how to use and built all of my websites with, won’t run on an Apple Mac Book Pro computer.
So now I have two choices…both of them are bad. Buy a new PC just to build my website with, or buy a new program and start over from scratch learnin’ how to use it. So the bottom line is, I can’t even put photos on my website any more until I resolve this issue. And that isn’t even getting into the so called, “Apple Tax” on everything you have to buy to go with it because everything is proprietary. C’mon Mac…WTF…Over?
Anyway, I put them in my Drop Box so I hope this link works. 😎
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/fq62lps694y6s1s/AABWTYkwJXH0fcoGh9sjCfMGa?dl=0
Here goes nuthin’!
Hallelujah! Can I get an amen! It worked!
Amen, brother.
Joy,
Only 55 comments posted today? That’s like one every five minutes or so … Is that some kind of a record or what?
I noticed that one common theme was the numerous Request Visibility: Unpublished . That means that your numerous, ongoing PFD Public Records Requests (PRR) are hidden from public view, right?
Which means the PFD and COP want to keep all that you have requested a secret, right?
What can we do to help you out? In order to get the COP and PFD to publish your PRRs we need to file our own PRRs for what specifically …?
RTS–
as I dump the requests today on IM
those questions will be answered directly by the City
you will see
keep looking
I am making it my focus in honor of Marty Cole showing me disrespect as the eyewitness to a tragedy – he should not have walked away and allowed it to end such way because I am dumping it all in case I end up with the Virus and become a causal factor in this manufactured bullshit being threaded in this world wide web crapola
thank you Mr. Cole for todays’ activities you ca say, RTS
all he had to do was stick with me and none of this would be coming to the World’s view even though it is Public Records – he frustrated me to the point I am like hey Cole, look it is not personal – look at everyone else I pulled one on too…
you took it so personal
and after you learned why
you did not deny it or admit it
you just said that person of many decades is not your true friend
horseshit, Cole.
Joy – still looking and waiting for how and what we need to do to get your PFD PRRs so that they will be disclosed to the public instead of hidden from view by the PFD
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-483068
here you go RTS
Forgot to mention you and your efforts to get FOIA infor. Absolute nightmare I know you had with those along with RTS and I am certain others.
My son came out and yes there is a panic–he says even the gun stores have had a run. Kids always think they know more than we that have dealt with situations in hair raising circumstances at least with some might say. But I reminded him of his blood, that our situation is that since I was 9 I was bringing in subsistence and until I was 17 sometimes the major provider. My Dad never took welfare and had that proud Irish way of we do or die. And of course we did not die but learned that we really do not need the WalMart China canned goods that he brought a few extras of. I gave him a thousand in silver and told him that this will be a good thing–don’t worry I only have a couple hundred left. But you ought to know that paper money is quite what it is faith in nothing but paper–really not the government because our government borrows every billion they request at a percentage that goes to the world bankers that the tax payer pays. These world bankers only promise that the paper they print is backed by something in the ethereal. So one day it will be nice that you have a little gold and silver that is real because these clever world bankers might someday be found out–or maybe they do not care since they own most of the gold and silver reserves by now and if they get the price down low enough on silver they will fill their coffers with more. Now do not listen to my radical opinions– I do not want the CIA knocking on my door but I know they will not anyway, there are big fish in the pond that have some pizzaz that in my humble position actually makes theses politicos and government succors look all the better. After all I believe in flying saucers and that makes my ideas increase their great wonderful stance in defending our ideals as a US citizen.
It is quite an ordeal now–kind of like if I were ignorant enough to challenge RTS or Gary or WTKTT with their wisdom and abilities. Maybe I would be better at survival out on this desert–perhaps beat them by a month or so given we were set out there on our own–maybe even longer–but the jungle of the nick and tucks of dealing with the sharks of the city and the sharks of government I would have the longevity of a snail in boiling water.
What do I say, you fellows are all my heroes, too many do not know how your are theirs as well.. But the dead do, and the young ones that lost their precious fathers will know, and somewhere the whole of it all will know. Your efforts and your endurance to see this out to the true story is something written in heaven among whatever gods you ascribe to or do not ascribe too. The Irish gods especially I think. The Leprechaun is quite devious when you fuck with his gold–but in truth his gold would be those that fight the fires that destroy his gold.
We will survive this–Joy give them all blessing you have an ability that is special and thanks– fearlessly flood this world with truth–something it is so devoid of. Cowards will always fold when they face the truth.
Sonny, couple hundred silvers
what about the ones buried 🙂
Thread down below was getting confusing to post so starting up here.
WantsToKnowTheTruth says
MARCH 18, 2020 AT 11:47 PM
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482929
I am sharing the CITY OF PRESCOTT PUBLIC RECORDS REQUESTS ( PRRs ) today with you all
which they “claim” are public but ALL my requests show:
Request Visibility: Unpublished
With the current Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) I think it is in the Public’s best interest everyone see what I have requested from their digital systems.
This virus can hit any of us – even seven members of a single family –
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/03/18/nyregion/new-jersey-family-coronavirus.html
I am not a fan of this topic Coronavirus disease (COVID-19) because I think it is a manufactured farce and we have so many diseases each year we all can die from
and I am one who was 33 years old when the department of microbiology cultured for my body enterococcus faecalis – hospital-acquired that would then be one of my longest health aftermaths of MRSA – my open wound on my front chest was a “night mare” for almost two years of gangrene and pus and episodes and once I fired my doctors and I used dry sheets on the warmest setting possible. Bathe in chlorhexidine (HIBICLENS) soap or bath water with a small amount of liquid bleach, usually about 1 teaspoon for every gallon of bathwater. I got rid of it.
Seem the doctors kept it stimulated and I stopped it.
Viruses like this COVID-19 sure it is bringing much focal feculent attention right now but what is in a few months but elections…I am not a fan to cause this much disruptions to lives when we have people get much worse in numbers Viruses of other kinds so why such the hype?
I mean weeks before the YHFire the hype was Snowden and where is he now?
Months before the fire I came back to Congress Arizona due to another brain tumor when I was out pioneering with Sonny I was diagnosed with it. I am cleaning old paperwork yesterday and I found the second diagnosis sheet where I had done a maxillofacial ct scan April 2013 and Sonny took me to North Arizona then into NM to his son’s then to El Paso then home to Congress where there was a yuk event May 13 2013 and ten days later Sonny ended up in Yarnell. We went ahead and explored the Weavers, He is right we traveled far and long that month June 2013.
My husband got a job finally yesterday after how many months and how many interviews? It is the lowest paying job he ever had but it is a job, right-
Meanwhile I still do not have insurance and there is just way too many areas I have concerns to health and I still do my labs and do my tractions and body manipulations with the help of another. I have some serious bilateral limb concerns and decisions to make and right now. Decisions that are life-altering. When Marty Cole had his agitation – all I could think of was does this man even know the behind the scenes lengths I have gone for TRUTH – show me kindness and respect.
Because of him and his actions – you all get to see all the requests I have made to the City of Prescott. Had Marty been more kind and receptive you all would not be getting this- I feel like if I passed on you all did not get to see what I was doing behind the scenes besides trainign and conferences and my health.
The City of Prescott and the media owe us all more …
I am not satisfied with I almost died and Tex and yet 19 did and we are all just to accept it.
The media was there in the Sesame to Shrine areas and they should show their raw footage,
City of Prescott have a duty and role in this too.
Someone said they did not have the belief I have tumors yet do not remove them-
why not remove them?
My answers are within here:
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/blog
Request #18-541
——————————-
Request Visibility: Unpublished
——————————–
OPEN REQUEST – LARGE SCOPE – NO CURRENT ETA
——————————–
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
August 6, 2018, 9:30am
Self Research Non-Commercial Request to be viewed either in person or via online as recent requests have been shown and willing to pay $50 or notify me if it is higher and break down why yet is following all Arizona Public Records Law (A.R.S…) since I am not asking this time for printed copies like in 2016. I do understand 2 of the people (Duane and Darrell) requires going back to the longer history of them to the City of Prescott versus the others so let me know if I should do a separate request on them to eliminate confusion(s) since they have a longer history.
1. Complete History and All types of professional certifications for both structural and wild land and others and evaluation reviews and resource wild land fire documents (any type of document) that had the following name:
Thomas F Cooley
Thomas F Cooley
Tom Cooley
Tom F Cooley
T Cooley
Tom Fay Cooley
Thomas Fay Cooley
if it is a common name the name closest to birth date REDACTED FOR HERE
2. Any documents with the email REDACTED FOR HERE or any email to and from the listed names above Tom Cooley with any keyword YARNELL
3. Complete History and All types of professional certifications for both structural and wild land and others and evaluation reviews and resource wild land fire documents that had the following name (any type of document): Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink / Duane A Steinbrink, Troy Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man.
4. All emails and documents and records and texts with the name RTS [ REDACTED FOR HERE ] …
5. All emails and documents and records and texts with the name Elizabeth Nowicki.
6. All emails and documents and records and texts with the name Holly Neill and or Deanna Thompson.
7. All emails and documents and records and texts with the name AMANDA BENO MARSH LOHMAN / AMANDA MARSH / AMANDA BENO MARSH / AMANDA LOHMAN and tied to YARNELL
For the purposes of this request, the term “record,” regardless of form or format, shall mean: (1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.
thank you
Joy A Collura
I am just going to show you all communications in chronological order to 18-541 and it is a large scope to and thread so bear with me.
——————————————————————————–
FIRST ONE:
===============
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please give a time frame for each email request made. Per our IT Dept.:
We do not have a way to track text messages unless they were sent out to a phone from our email system.
To track those items we would need the target cell number and the service (Verizon, Sprint, etc) although the number would be enough to see if we have these items.
For the email items I don’t see a time frame reference, the email archive goes back to April of 2013.
Please note that due to the voluminous amount of records requested, we have moved the anticipated completion date to November 30th, 2018. However, if we are finished collecting the records before then, we will release the records in their entirety as soon as we can.
Please send time frame as mentioned above so we may move forward in our search.
Thank you.
August 6, 2018, 2:07pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
=======================
————————————————————————-
MY REPLY TO THEM:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thomas F Cooley- as soon as you can. Fact checking information using public records.
I have in hand Tom Cooley’s … MASTER RECORD so you can omit that in search.
Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink / Duane A Steinbrink, Troy Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man.–> No rush, Spring 2019 (time frame for each email request made. Per our IT Dept.:). Since it is archival. I also kept it general and if it needs to be more specific because it ends up being too large just let me know so I can re-adjust the request to more specific there but if there is not much there I wanted to keep it general. Fact checking some information.
[ RTS ] and [NAME REDACTED FOR HERE] .- by Summer 2019 (time frame for each email request made. Per our IT Dept.:) using June 30, 2013 to present date today for date range for their names. (number verizon 928 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] and level 3 comm 928 [# REDACTED FOR HERE] ) I really want any type as described in my definition “records” pertaining to these [two] names.
Elizabeth Nowicki, Holly Neill, Deanna Thompson and AMANDA BENO MARSH LOHMAN / AMANDA MARSH / AMANDA BENO MARSH / AMANDA LOHMAN- Summer 2019 (time frame for each email request made. Per our IT Dept.:) using June 30, 2013 to present date today for date range for their names.
numbers–
verizon 518 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
verizon 202 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
at&t mobile 917 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
verizon 505 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
Sprint 928 4[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon 928 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
verizon 928 [#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon 406 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
verizon 406 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] ,
frontier 208 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] .
triangle 406 [#REDACTED FOR HERE] )
I really want any type as described in my definition “records” pertaining to these names.
CITY OF PRESCOTT —“We do not have a way to track text messages unless they were sent out to a phone from our email system”= if it was sent out that way and it includes the above names I do want it.
To track those items we would need the target cell number and the service (Verizon, Sprint, etc) ===
let me pull the numbers I have from FOIAs/Public Records/Research so that helps.
Verizon- Willis- 928-[#REDACTED FOR HERE] and 928-[#REDACTED FOR HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13 and below is Willis’s tie to these numbers listed below and any others during the date range but I am fact checking currently.
Verizon- direct 928-8[#REDACTED FOR HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
verizon- 928-7[#REDACTED FOR HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
Neutral Tandem- AZ LLC 520-6[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon-928-9[#REDACTED FOR HERE] and 928-9[#REDACTED FOR HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
qwest/century link- 928-4[#REDACTED FOR HERE] and verizon 805 5[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon- 831 5[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
sprint- 928 7[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon- 928-92[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon- 928-71[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
Frontier CA verizon- 760-3[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
sprint 951-3[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon 928 – 5[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
verizon 928-8[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
365 wireless 520-3[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
century link 928-4[#REDACTED FOR HERE]
CITY OF PRESCOTT
“However, if we are finished collecting the records before then, we will release the records in their entirety as soon as we can.”-When time gets closer to target dates just let me know if it is easier to come in person versus the online method or whatever route works best for your business hours.
August 6, 2018, 6:11pm by the requester
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Requester + Staff
I actually have to make a CORRECTION.
I have the master record for Tom Cooley up until October 2013 so I am requesting the master record as well from October 2013 to present.
August 7, 2018, 1:58pm by the requester
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
the other “specific” item I am wanting to see to fact check is the 2013 Granite Mountain Hotshot (GMHS) roster that ADOSH had for the GMHS 2013 where Tom Cooley is on the list to keep the type 2 IA status and discussed in the interview.
August 7, 2018, 3:19pm by the requester
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
added gmhs image. In that I am looking for the June 30 2013 and how this organization chart looked in names and the documents that would support to fill in the names where it belongs including Willis and GMHS and the PFD and as it shows on chart when pertaining to “all” records tied to Willis. Just an example. I know when it is kept general it is harder scope yet this is a harder research topic when I am just a housewife hiker learning the industry.
August 8, 2018, 4:00pm by the requester
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Just to confirm, are the last two communications from you add-ons to the original request? Or is this just supporting document to show what you are requesting?
Please be sure to make a new request for any additional documents you are seeking that are not in the original request. We cannot accept add-ons, as in general practice it would make a public record request go on and stay open indefinitely, as more and more things are added on.
Thank you
August 8, 2018, 4:38pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Just to show where and what kinds of things I am looking in return so supporting additional information because you stated I needed telephone carrier and numbers and I am only coming up with what I provided but if any additional I find I will begin a new request and as for the correction- I have the master record up until 2013 for TOM COOLEY but I will need from Oct. 2013 to present and as well the documents that I can fill in the blanks of the titles of the Prescott Organizational Chart I provided. No add-ons just showing where my mind is thinking as for as what I like to see back when it is all done being I kept it rather general and again if it becomes to large I can spend a day or three and narrow it but I did not want to narrow it and lose out on some areas if there is not much on the folks I included. > > Thank You, > Joy A Collura > >> Thank you Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
August 8, 2018, 7:36pm by the requester via email
City Of Prescott’s reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
Understood.
Thank you.
August 9, 2018, 8:16am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
You wrote, ”
Thomas F Cooley- as soon as you can. Fact checking information using public records.
I have in hand Tom Cooley’s PERSON MASTER RECORD so you can omit that in search. ”
Does this mean to omit anything on Mr. Cooley? What does the term “Person Master Record” mean, as I am confused as to what can be omitted from the search? Can we omit #1 and #2 in your original request? Is that what you mean?
I apologize, but the request is so large and with amendments and added information, it is causing confusion.
Please clarify to help us fill this request properly.
Thank you.
August 9, 2018, 9:47am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
>> Does this mean to omit anything on Mr. Cooley? clarify here- the only thing omitted is 1980’s to 2013 MASTER RECORD for Tom Cooley but I clarified I do want the MASTER RECORD from October 2013 to present date
What does the term “Person Master Record” mean,
I hear you there. So many terminologies I had to learn myself over time and the master record looks like this enclosed one of many photos:[Tom Cooley Master Record-2a.jpg]
as I am confused as to what can be omitted from the search?
only thing to omit from request is 1988 to September 2013 MASTER RECORD for TOM COOLEY as I have that already.
Can we omit #1 and #2 in your original request? Is that what you mean?
no. clarified it above.
>> >> I apologize, but the request is so large and with amendments and added information, it is causing confusion.the added stuff you requested-
you asked me for carrier name and numbers and I answered that to my best ability and I only amended to omit a document I had and that was COOLEY MASTER RECORD from the 80’s to Oct 2013 so if it is easier to break the request into different areas by names if that helps than that is fine. I just know all I asked for I came back and gave you my best estimate of when I wanted it even though you target dated November 2018. I felt it was easier to break it up what was more important to me and how some can wait until Spring/Summer 2019 so the focus was on what I needed first to fact check. Thank you, Joy A Collura
>> >> Again, when the time comes and you search a name and it comes back very large return than reach me and let me know so we can narrow it down. I do not want to lose out on facts and documents by being specific and yet I have no clue how involved the names included will give in search return. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
August 9, 2018, 10:18am by the requester via email
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
enclosed Coconino reply. [attachment]
the custodian records of this man Tom Cooley will be in the city of Prescott public records. I checked other areas.
September 5, 2018, 7:35pm by the requester
City Of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for your recent message, Ms. Collura. We are still working on this request. The Fire Dept is connected to the request and will see the letter you downloaded. Please understand that the City has no control over another agency’s records. Was there a specific reason you submitted the letter that you wanted us to address?
Thank you.
September 6, 2018, 8:19am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
There is nothing to address just keeping the flow of communication to the specific reason to why I added the files (2) so that the city of Prescott and its FD are aware I did my Federal area of the request and well… if the Coconino doesn’t have his records anymore ( perfectly possible after 17 years ) and U.S. Forestry has offloaded his files to the National Archives ( also perfectly possible after 17 years )… then I will be relying on NARA and the employment application and records you all provide to fact check information. I just wanted you to be in loop I looked there in case the FD was planning to I saved them that step. Thank you. Have a beautiful day, Joy A. Collura
September 6, 2018, 5:07pm by the requester
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
Thanks for the explanation. We will keep working.
Thank you.
September 7, 2018, 10:58am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am the requester and every-time I went to click to see if any updates because some records were to be an estimate of November 2018 ready so I am training right now and only can get to you in person on Mondays and Thursdays except next Monday from noon to business close (yet electronically sent like in the past is fine as well) so I was trying to peak to see if any updates there and I got this: [joy.JPG] Joy A. Collura Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
October 24, 2018, 7:07pm by the requester via email
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Hello Ms. Collura,
It is our standard procedure to not release information piece-meal. The City’s protocol is to release records once ALL the requested documents and/or data requested has been gathered and prepared. There is nothing uploaded yet for your request. Staff is still working on gathering, redacting and researching your request.
Thank you for your inquiry.
October 25, 2018, 1:00pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Sounds good. The files tied to my craigslistdesertwalker gmail account open fine to see the original requests. It was just this one under this email gave me that reply I inserted in last email to you the message I got where I could not view it and the other 2 files I can view the original request but this one gave me that message without being able to see the request That was all unable to view but I saved it as pdf with the date and time so next time I am near those records I can always peak at original request. No big deal. We know you said November 30th 2018 is estimated date because I wrote it down on calendar yet there was a lot in last round to inspect that I wrote back my time frames I was thinking when I was asked when stuff was needed back. I am in no hurry. Enjoy this amazing day.😊 Happy Autumn Joy A. Collura Sent from ProtonMail mobile
October 25, 2018, 1:12pm by the requester via email
Joy’s reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
yeah this is the one I can never access or log on to…I found the email just not able to get on. Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
November 30, 2018, 6:11pm by the requester via email
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please try a different browser like Google or Firefox. The request loads slowly due to the amount of documents you have downloaded into it. A different browser may solve the problem.
Thank you.
December 3, 2018, 11:28am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
[THEIR PROJECTED DEADLINE PASSED AND NOTHING BACK YET]
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
[REQUEST.JPG] NO WHERE TO LOG IN JUST GET THE SAME MESSAGE ABOVE NO WAY TO VIEW THIS REQUEST PLEASE LET YOUR TECHNICAL TEAM KNOW Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
December 3, 2018, 12:09pm by the requester via email
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
FIGURED THE CONFUSION I RESET THE PASSWORD I AM IN Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email. ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐‐‐‐‐
December 3, 2018, 12:56pm by the requester via email
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Fabulous!
December 3, 2018, 12:57pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Hello Ms. Collura,
It is our standard procedure to not release information piece-meal. The City’s protocol is to release records once ALL the requested documents and/or data requested has been gathered and prepared. There is nothing uploaded yet for your request. Staff is still working on gathering, redacting and researching your request.
Thank you for your inquiry.
October 25, 2018, 1:00pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staf
—————–
[Joy’s Reply:]
I did see feedback on Thomas Cooley but still awaiting # 3 thru 7 on original request and the above communications states you like to give data all in 1 time so is 3 thru 7 ready too?
December 3, 2018, 1:01pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
also I have noticed the request seems to be sealed from public view of master index.
Is there a reason for that? Some are sealed and some are not under my name?
December 3, 2018, 1:02pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
My apologies I just noted the attachments on left were done by me not you.
Sorry
December 3, 2018, 1:04pm by the requester
City Of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Emails requested will be handled in this request not 19-75. We will let you know when they are ready and if a USB drive will be necessary to deliver the emails you requested.
Thank you.
April 17, 2019, 9:32am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Notice the date. How much time since projected request time to be filled and it is still not?
4 months, 18 days excluding the end date.
Just note it – that’s all – just note it.
Also note the request is STILL OPEN
It is 475 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date of what they projected to be a completed request.
Or 1 year, 3 months, 19 days excluding the end date.
just keep it in mind
I know “pro-bono” lawyers or people in Law and Justice will later “get” why I say “note” it-
However from time I opened the request it has been:
Result: 591 days
It is 591 days from the start date to the end date, but not including the end date.
Or 1 year, 7 months, 13 days excluding the end date.
Or 19 months, 13 days excluding the end date.
“just saying” …keep it noted.
22 days go by from the last communication 4-17-19 talking about USB drive topic than this:
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The City is working toward providing documents for your request. Please find the following in response to any personnel records requested as we move forward.
The City of Prescott deems the majority of an employee’s personnel records confidential. The City is a political subdivision of the State of Arizona. The State of Arizona limits review of State employee personnel files made under a public records request to the following:
Name of employee;
Date of employment;
Current and previous class titles and dates of appointment to the class;
Current and previous agencies to which the employee has been assigned and the location of the main office for each agency;
Current and previous salaries and dates of each change;
Name of employee’s current or last known supervisor; and
Records that are reasonably necessary or appropriate to maintain an accurate knowledge of the employee’s disciplinary actions, including the employee responses to all disciplinary actions, unless providing this information is contrary to law. See Arizona Administrative Code Title 2, Ch 5.
Additionally, the privacy interests an employee has in other aspects of his/her personnel file militates against providing the entire file. It is also in the City’s best interests in having a full and open employee evaluation process to limit provision of the entire personnel file. Thus, the City’s policy in providing personnel records made pursuant to the Arizona Public Records laws is the same as required by the State of Arizona pursuant to the Administrative Code cited above.
We will continue to work on this request and provide records according to public record laws.
Thank you.
May 9, 2019, 1:16pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
than from their last request in May 2019 I send one July 2019..It is 67 days from May to July, but not including the end date.
Or 2 months, 6 days excluding the end date.
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I would like to show “one request” where it is an example you have provided small information over time as it came yet other requests you state you do not share the information until it is all done.
This request is almost reaching the one year annual from when I submitted it so would I be at the phase to “appeal” this request or inform State Ombudsman to find out when is an appropriate time frame for this specific request?
I understand it is a large request with other open requests and plus you have other people with requests yet this request has some information placed on here and there has not been any further communication of ETA.
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura
July 15, 2019, 6:59am by the requester
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Ms. Collura,
Below is an update of your request. This request is so large that it is taking an extensive amount of time to complete. The City does not have a staff that is designated for public records only. Staff must juggle regular duties in addition to public records. In the future, it would be recommended that you request one or two things at a time rather than everything together. It is HIGHLY recommended that any request for emails be done separately. Email requests are tedious, time consuming and are usually VERY large and take a very long time to complete.
Please know that staff has run into various problems with this request including technology failures and staffing. We hope to fill your request as soon as we can. Please be aware that all documents must be reviewed and may need redaction before release, which is also time consuming.
Below is an update. This is NOT a final, there are still more emails to sort through (see below – Unsorted & Questions):
Log of Records
Requester – Joy Collura
Copyrighted Materials – 4 items
For Release – 272 items
Drafts Not For Disclosure – 6 items
HIPPA – Private Info – 10 items
Not Applicable to Request – 716 items
NOT for Release – Protected – Identity Protection, Private Info – 5 emails
Unsorted – 143 items left for review & redaction
Questions – Re-review – 401 items
Duplicates – 2 items
*Excludes documents requested, which still need review.
Thank you for your patience.
July 15, 2019, 2:13pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for the clear updates and instructions for future requests. I am glad to know this. Very helpful. I had no idea it was a juggle of staff. That must make some wish I stop asking until the rest are fulfilled. I know I would want that. I know I feel that way too as I will be working solid in one area organizing on the fire I eyewitnessed than new incoming and I am like ugh…I am just ONE person so I get that. I do wish your city would put general memo out not to reach the eyewitness until further notice with their fire accounts so I too can catch up. I usually inquire and ask for records the moment I learn it so I have a time stamp when I learned information. Thank you again. Sent from ProtonMail mobile
July 15, 2019, 2:48pm by the requester via email
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Requester – Joyce Collura [???]
My name is Joy A Collura not Joyce Collura
July 16, 2019, 8:40am by the requester
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Ms. Collura,
Apologies for the misspelling of your name. Corrected.
Thank you.
July 16, 2019, 8:54am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
World-
as you notice I am in chronological order going over one PRR – I have hundreds of requests out there in the world so welcome to my world of it is not just THAT simple- to say I asked for this and this is my path but maybe now that I saw Marty’s agitation for how many years now and I had not pulled his records in previous years so it just escalated from prior years but you all can thank him for me starting to make this area PUBLIC even though it is PUBLIC INFORMATION yet the City of Prescott has each one now labelled Request Visibility: Unpublished
You all can make your own assessments as to why-
Maybe once it is out PUBLIC they can see the lengths it has taken time wise and maybe it is time to hire someone to do that area full time being my requests could be categorized as such- a full time job. Shit, I would take that job 😉
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Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
actually when the page opens it shows it all then vanishes to the +READMORE button on this link request so far only at 9/3/19 220pm
September 3, 2019, 2:19pm by the requester
External Message Requester + Staff
Unable to see +READMORE on this one so I can answer your other question on 19-438
September 3, 2019, 1:59pm by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
to:
July 15, 2019, 2:13pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff) updated log-
any current ETA on request? …
Please email me update but in addition drop a voice mail … leaving a voicemail at 480 559 1971 will be heard before seeing emails if you had any immediate need to hear from me and good number to alert me of any public records updates or ETAs. Best Regards, Joy A Collura
October 5, 2019, 6:10pm by the requester
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City of Prescott’s Reply TWO WEEKS LATER:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
We hope to be done with this request soon, as we are down to only 200 more emails to prepare. I will let you know when it is done. I am going to try to upload the emails and the attachments into this system. However, please understand in the past the system would not allow staff to upload the attachments, which may still be the case. If the system gives me trouble, I will contact you and ask for a $5.00 fee and mail a USB drive of the emails and attachments.
Thank you.
October 14, 2019, 8:55am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
It was 86 days “,We hope to be done with this request soon, as we are down to only 200 more emails to prepare. ” but not including the end date of the next communications asking for funds.
2 months, 25 days excluding the end date.
WTF, over?
Really? 2.3 emails a day that comes to….
I am not sure I am liking the current system when they meanwhile “worked” on various other requests of mine. ???? and other peoples PRRs.
Let’s just get this one done then go to the next, right???
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City of Prescott
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I have attempted to download all the emails and their attachments to no avail. The emails will download, but the attachments will not. This is due to the attachments being contained in their own separate folders. I will need you to pay $5.00 for a USB drive, plus $1.50 for postage to get the attachments on the drive. I will download the emails without attachments into this system now and once you pay the fees, I will download all the emails and the attachments onto the USB drive and mail it out. This means you will have emails without attachments both in the system and on a USB drive with the attachments.
Thanks.
January 8, 2020, 3:57pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
City of Prescott Reply:
Invoice Sent – $6.50 Requester + Staff
Hello,
Your request requires a USB drive or a CD with the information you have requested. Please remit $5.00 to cover the cost of the electronic storage device, plus $1.50 for postage. Payment must be received before the material is released to you.
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 3:57pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
PAID IN FULL-
City of Prescott
Document(s) Released to Requester
Details Public [Request Visibility: Unpublished]
January 8, 2020, 3:58pm
and then I started dumping them to you all back channel before training began-
I felt you all should be included and some of you posted some on IM yet none of the juicy ones ever made it yet to IM yet- yet people know some peoples true colors now from the PRRs.
but yeah Holly Neill ,I did not see her for the first time at the academy – if she was there – she was not visible as she has made herself in prior years …same with Willis.
I also noted the clout feeling some got in recent years has lessened if seven people came to me at the training academy and said in prior years they were told to stay away from me and the recent emails they got before training meant the world to them from another and that it solidified what they inertly felt about Holly and Willis and MacLean and others –
hey it came from their own mouths so it is just a fact check verify to to others behaviors but no sides need to be taken in this and just cleaning up the dirty areas is all I am doing-
I am in it to figure out the facts and why people began being the FAMILY ADVOCATE so early on…;
fact check and verify is wtktt motto, right? 😉
What the world does not get is on Wednesday, January 8, 2020 11:56 AM hours before they “suddenly” released the records – I filed a formal complaint on another request and CC’d it to wtkkt in case something happened to me…
Danee Garone
Your online COMPLAINT FORM is not submitting (I tried many many times – just circles) so here is what I had;
Formal Complaint (Required):
I placed a public records request on November 2, 2018, 12:36pm with the City of Prescott.
By November 20, 2018, 1:08pm by Jaimie Sventek, Business Manager (Staff) they stated
“The Prescott Fire Department has located Mr. Luedeman’s Master Record. The Master Record has been sent for review for any possible redactions that may be needed. We are still researching the additional documents requested. Thank you.”
– Understood –
then this:
Request Closed Hide Public
Dear Requester,
Please find that documents have been made available.
Per Fire records some of the records requested are outside the retention schedule. The Fire Department doesn’t have any further information or records to support this request. Additionally, they don’t have any knowledge of an Engine or personnel being at a Yarnell station.
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Thank you.
January 7, 2020, 9:14am
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What resolution are you looking for?
I put a request into the ARIZONA STATE LIBRARY, ARCHIVES AND PUBLIC RECORDS again to see what they come up with but just giving me RETENTION SCHEDULE and no proof of purge l is not sufficient. Glendale FD showed me their purge documents and any remaining documents I received.
I need documents of such purge event like an index log of the items removed from their system and in what manner.
We are talking about a National Tragedy that has historical significance. They would not fall under normal protocol on RETENTION SCHEDULE when I almost died that day yet 19 others indeed did die and I was with the 20 men on the Weavers that day June 30, 2013. I have a right to challenge this and I have a right to know where the documents are now.
I want the documents and more specific clarity than just RETENTION SCHEDULE.
———————————–
What steps have you taken to resolve the problem with the agency? Please include names of people you have worked with and other offices you reported the complaint to.
I will email you separate the attachments of it all.
I have been fully compliant and compassionate for they took 431 days after I submitted my original request #18-787 to come back with RETENTION SCHEDULE – now 406 days ago on November 20. 2018 1:08pm when alerting me of Mr. Luedeman’s Master Record being redacted would have been the appropriate time to do such on Station 71.
I am always told they do not have a “records keeper” so they have to use current staff to work on my requests yet RETENTION SCHEDULE on a National Tragedy is bogus but if they want to state that then I want the actual document that they formally disposed or transferred such-
Thank you and Best Regards
and Happy New Year
Do you have a case number, license number, or other identifier with this agency? Please include it. If this is a complaint about the Department of Child Safety (Formerly known as CPS), please include the mother and children’s names and birth dates.
#18-787 is original, #20-14 Retention Schedule, #20-17 document of items CITY OF PRESCOTT has purged since 2013
Ithas been 71 days from that email to Garone but not including the end date.
Or 2 months, 11 days excluding the end date.
Still not reply even from Garone to that specific complaint
????
I even alerted him Saturday, January 25, 2020 10:11 PM I would not be near pc during Fire Season 2020 Training and still no reply from that email.
and Tuesday, March 3, 2020 6:16 PM I wrote:
“Can I have an ETA or if back-logged what number in line I am at to have this reviewed-
I submitted it but never heard from you-
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura”
and yet STILL no replies
what the…????
really.
what is going on?
Wtktt, am I failing to do any steps wrong? Why am I seeing this failure in the system?
Did you think it ended there-
noooooooooooooooooooo
I mean watch…
THE CASE IS OPEN REMEMBER
do you know why?
keep watching…
I have to eat lunch though so PAUSE for now
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Do you have any online payment submission areas (paypal or etc).
If not, please send me a proper mailing address to cut an online bank check for #18-541. They take 3 to 5 business days to arrive to you.
Is #18-541 in memo sufficient adding payment of external storage and postage? Or do you require to mention Public Records Request (PRR)?
January 9, 2020, 4:51am by the requester
=PAID BY ONLINE INVOICE-
City of Prescott Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
You should be able to click the link within the email notice of the invoice and pay online. If you wish to write a check and pay via mail, please issue the check to : City of Prescott, 221 S Cortez St, Prescott, AZ 86303. Attn: Legal
Should you have any questions please call me at 928-777-1274.
Thank you.
January 9, 2020, 7:25am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
======================
Invoice Paid Public
$6.50 paid online
January 9, 2020, 7:36am
————————-
City of Prescott Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Please confirm your mailing address.
Thank you.
January 9, 2020, 8:06am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————–
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
as shown on original request: Please mail to: Joy A Collura P.O. Box 572 Congress Arizona 85332 Thank You. Best Regards, Joy A. Collura
January 9, 2020, 8:09am by the requester via email
—————————
City of Prescott Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Index of Records.
January 9, 2020, 8:47am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Records Log – Collura 18-541.pdf
January 9, 2020, 8:47am
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Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
where is the redaction index log located at?
also note on Log Record below
my name is JOY A COLLURA not JOYCE
January 9, 2020, 9:00pm by the requester
———————
City of Prescott Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Ms. Joy Collura,
The log you have already been provided a log that tells how many items released, held, etc. Apologies for the name typo.
Thank you.
January 10, 2020, 10:12am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Ms. Joy Collura,
The log you have already been provided a log that tells how many items released, held, etc. Apologies for the name typo.
Thank you.
January 10, 2020, 10:12am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————–
External Message Requester + Staff
In the interest of clarity, please find another log that will hopefully clarify what was provided and what was not.
Thank you.
January 10, 2020, 10:20am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————–
Document(s) Released to Requester Public
Records Log – Collura 18-541 – 2.pdf
January 10, 2020, 10:20am
—————————
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I should be provided a redaction log index of the reason areas were redacted because I am finding areas that should not be redacted. [emphasis added.]
Do I have to challenge it here or where do I challenge because I asked in 2016 for document of the Alumni for GMHS and there is an email with the Alumni but it is redacted and that is public records not private.
You can delete email parts but not names.
I am busy downloading all the records and was given limited time to do that [by City of Prescott] (1 month) and I am headed out for Fire Season 2020 for training soon so busy doing that then the Season happens so I need to know when I get the chance to review the records versus slowly (bandwidth) download them and I know in skimming I do have areas that need to be addressed within this request but it will be within or after my Fire Season.
Where do I write my challenges on a request-
I am owed the index log why an area was redacted-
reason an area is blocked- blacked out.
I mean one area showed [email redacted] but then they blocked the rest and in that email I can go right to [RTS] and see the rest of the names and content blacked out and there is enough documents showing his name but when he asked for documents you stated to him you had nothing so yeah there is some areas eventually I will need to challenge.
So where do I attend that so I am not bombarding the message area here.
Also the investigation at State Records so far has been interesting because they said CITY OF PRESCOTT has not transferred anything since the 70s except I found it very interesting what was transferred- so yeah let me know how you want to handle it when I get into 2020 and start reading when I question redaction(s) or do you have that index log handy required by law-
I will want that before this areas is “closed”-
January 10, 2020, 10:37am by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0223_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_Joy Collura PRR August 2018.docx – 08…
0223_Sender_Reinhardt,Andrew – FirstRecipient_Bonney – Subject_Turbyfill – 02-25-2016.pdf
just note for the record-
as I downloaded there is (2) 0223
January 10, 2020, 1:01pm by the requester
————————
————————-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I need further documentation and clarification on:
I failed to see as described in original request these records for:
Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man,[redacted]
as well I did ask for record with a definition clarifying( 1) any written, printed, or typed material of any kind, including without limitation all correspondence, memoranda/memorandum, notes, messages, letters, cards, facsimiles, papers, forms, telephone messages, diaries, schedules, calendars, chronological data, minutes, books, reports, charts, lists, ledgers, invoices, worksheets, receipts, returns, computer printouts, printed matter, prospectuses, statements, checks, statistics, surveys, affidavits, contracts, agreements, transcripts, magazine or newspaper articles, or press releases, including drafts; (2) any electronically, magnetically, or mechanically stored material of any kind, including without limitation all electronic mail or email; (3) any audio, aural, visual, or video records, recordings, or representations of any kind; (4) any graphic materials or data compilations from which information can be obtained; and (5) any materials using other means of preserving thought or expression.)
As well I requested any messages sent out to a phone from your email system with the following:
(numbers–[redacted]
I really want any type as described in my definition “records” pertaining to these names.
—
“We do not have a way to track text messages unless they were sent out to a phone from our email system”= if it was sent out that way and it includes the above names I do want it.
To track those items we would need the target cell number and the service (Verizon, Sprint, etc) ===let me pull the numbers I have from FOIAs/Public Records/Research so that helps.
Verizon- Willis- 928-9[redacted] and 928-7[redacted] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13 and below is Willis’s tie to these numbers listed below and any others during the date range but I am fact checking currently.
Verizon- direct 928-8[redacted] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
verizon- 928-7[redacted] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
Neutral Tandem- AZ LLC 520-6[redacted]
verizon-928-9[redacted] and 928-9[redacted] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
qwest/century link- 928-4[redacted] and verizon 805 5[redacted]
verizon- 831 5[redacted]
sprint- 928 7[redacted]
verizon- 928-9[redacted]
verizon- 928-7[redacted]
Frontier CA verizon- 760-3[redacted]
sprint 951-3[redacted]
verizon 928 – 5[redacted]
verizon 928-[redacted]
365 wireless 520-3[redacted]
century link 928-4[redacted]
Joy’s reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Link to View document
0096_Sender_holly – FirstRecipient_r.lopez – Subject_Draft letter to Lolo Hotshot Crew – FOR REVI…
Link to View document
0096_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient__IT Help Desk_ _help @ prescott-az.g ov _ – Subject_Informa…
[this email I think was the one about YOU, RTS]
0096 has (2) 0096
Note- for the records.
January 10, 2020, 5:26pm by the requester
————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Link to View document
0093_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_Survivors retreat – 02-27-2018.pdf
Link to View document
0093_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
——-
for the record-
0093 has (2) 0093
January 10, 2020, 5:29pm by the requester
——————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0092_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_Survivors Retreat – 01-18-2017.pdf
Link to View document
0092_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.light @ prescott-…
0092 has (2) 0092
January 10, 2020, 5:32pm by the requester
———————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0091_Sender_Holly Neill – FirstRecipient – Subject_any ideas – 06-03-2014.pdf
Link to View document
0091_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
0091 has (2) 0091
January 10, 2020, 5:35pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0086_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient__Melissa Bates_ – Subject_Email to gm families – 02-13-…
Link to View document
0086_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
Link to View document
Link to View document
0088_Sender_Jeremiah King – FirstRecipient_Lucas,Ralph _ralph.lucas @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Er…
Link to View document
0088_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient__Willis, Darrell_ _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_w…
Link to View document
0089_Sender_Beegle,Francis – FirstRecipient_Lee – Subject_how do I get FOIAS_ Arizona Open Record…
Link to View document
0089_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_GMIHC Buggy – Private Photo Shoot Req…
[Amanda Beno Marsh]
86, 88, 89 have (2) 86, 88, 89
January 10, 2020, 5:39pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0084_Sender_McGroder, Patrick J. – FirstRecipient__Holly Neill_ – Subject_GM.Tox.Inquiry – 01-11-…
Link to View document
0084_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Devendorf,Don _don.devendorf @ prescot…
0084 has (2) 0084s
January 10, 2020, 6:01pm by the requester
—————————–
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am listing this for the record because it does change the numbers of actual record counts on that log-
0078_Sender_Lee,Michelle – FirstRecipient_Beegle – Subject_how do I get FOIAS_ Arizona Open Recor…
Link to View document
0078_Sender_Roxanne Lopez – FirstRecipient__Deborah Pfingston_ – Subject_WFGI Brochure – 02-12-20…
0078 has (2) 0078
January 10, 2020, 6:18pm by the requester
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Joy’s reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0075_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.light @ prescott-…
Link to View document
0075_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Mecca,David _david.mecca @ prescott-az…
0075 has (2) 0075
January 10, 2020, 6:25pm by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0064_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_don’…
Link to View document
0064_Sender_Willis,Darrell – FirstRecipient__sonny gilly_ _sonnygilly_ – Subject_Thank you for yo…
Link to View document
0065_Sender_Hall, Wes – FirstRecipient__Hall, Wes_ _Wesley.Hall amarillo.g o v_ – Subject_FDSOA Boa…
Link to View document
0065_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Lucas,Ralph _ralph.lucas @ prescott-az…
Link to View document
0066_Sender_juliann.ashcraft – FirstRecipient__Holly Neill_- Subject_BTown letter – 09-01-2016.pdf
Link to View document
0066_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
Link to View document
0067_Sender_Crouse,Patti – FirstRecipient__Tana Kuykendall_ – Subject_RSVP deadline and how.many …
Link to View document
0067_Sender_Holly Neill – FirstRecipient_darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Rigs – 10-19-20…
Link to View document
0068_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_December News Letter – 12-29-2016 .pd f
Link to View document
0068_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis – Subject_Thank you for your presence today. – 01…
Link to View document
0069_Sender_Bryan Martyn – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_Yarnell Memorial Site Committee Meeting Agen…
Link to View document
0069_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti [email protected] o v_ – Subject_Update -…
Link to View document
0070_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti [email protected] o v_ – Subject_He…
Link to View document
0070_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Lucas,Bret _bret.lucas @ prescott-az.g…
Link to View document
0071_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_RSVP dea…
Link to View document
0071_Sender_Kriwer,Eric – FirstRecipient_Wertheim,Pete _pete.wertheim @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_…
64 thru 71 all have (2) 64, 65, 66, 67, 68, 69, 70, 71
January 10, 2020, 6:36pm by the requester
===============
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0054_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_FW_ Operational Test – 04-11-2016. pd f
Link to View document
0054_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.light @ prescott-…
Link to View document
0054_Sender_Willis,Darrell – FirstRecipient__Holly Neill_ – Subject_thank you – 11-18-2013.pdf
Link to View document
0056_Sender_Don Boursier – [email protected] – Subject_Yarnell Hill Fire Operatio…
Link to View document
0056_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient__Willis, Darrell_ _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.gov_ – Subject_w…
Link to View document
0056_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Vicente,John _john .vicente @ prescott-…
Link to View document
0057_Sender_Kriwer,Eric – [email protected] – Subject_FW_ GMIHS Tribute H…
Link to View document
0057_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
Link to View document
0058_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_All Available…
Link to View document
0058_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis – Subject_Thank you for your presence today. – 01…
Link to View document
0059_Sender_Crouse,Patti – FirstRecipient__joy C_ _johnny.and.joy.c_ – Subject_Update – 10-31-201…
Link to View document
0059_Sender_Vicki Boswell – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_…
Link to View document
0060_Sender_Crouse,Patti – FirstRecipient__Tana Kuykendall_ – Subject_update from Joy A Collura …
Link to View document
0060_Sender_Deborah Pfingston – FirstRecipient__Darrell Willis_ _darrell.willis_ – Subject_Wildla…
Link to View document
0061_Sender_Deborah Pfingston – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_November Meeting – 09-29-2014. p df
Link to View document
0061_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_don’…
Link to View document
0062_Sender_Harwood,Doug – FirstRecipient__Deborah Pfingston_ – Subject_8-hour Meeting – 01-26-20…
Link to View document
0062_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.light @ prescott-…
Link to View document
0063_Sender_amandabeno – FirstRecipient_darrel.willis – Subject_Please read from Amanda Marsh Gra…
Link to View document
0063_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Luedeman,Scott _scott.luedeman @ presc…
there is (3) 54, 56s
there is (2) 57 thru 63
January 10, 2020, 6:47pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0056_Sender_Don Boursier – FirstRecipient_agraeser @ fs.f ed. us – Subject_Yarnell Hill Fire Operatio…
I would like the reason for the name being redacted- I can understand a private email but name should be there but it is blacked out
January 10, 2020, 6:55pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am not following “WHY” there is three of this and two of this and it is confusing if I try to save it to pc and I get a call then go back to it and I have to figure “which” 58 it is out of the 58s in refiling-
Plus I now have to go check log record and make sure those numbers are correct-
Most confusing release so far of a Public Record-
I mean I get it- if you got calls and stuff and went back to it yet before uploading I would have made corrections or added note to let me know-
I will recheck after I individually did all the files to make sure they match up that I got all the records downloaded.
0046_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Orman,Donna _donna.orman @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_update fro…
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0046_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Moser – Subject_Request from Ralph next Tuesday Evening …
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0047_Sender_Deborah Pfingston – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug [email protected] o v_ – Subj…
[I wonder if the 2 of them realized they were writing another where the PUBLIC can read their emails? ]
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0047_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_upda…
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0048_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_c Marsh Foundation December Newsletter – 12-2…
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0048_Sender_Cannizzaro,Karen – FirstRecipient_Benitez – Subject_S-215 Fire Ops in the Wildland Ur…
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0048_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_Lucas – Subject_Information Only_ How we got here and … this is about the time RTS our site was blocked from their IT system based on our blog
– why block us ???
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0048_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_Fletcher – Subject_IAP GMIHC Memorial Events June 201…
(2) 46 and 47s
(4) 48s
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0049_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Cooley – Subject_RE_ Operational Test – 04-11-2016.p d f
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0049_Sender_Plummer, Viola – FirstRecipient_Cannizzaro,Karen _karen.cannizzaro @ prescott-az.g o v_ -…
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0049_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Kriwer,Eric _eric.kriwer @ prescott-az…
(3) 49s
0050_Sender_FireRescue1 Newsletter – FirstRecipient_Cannizzaro,Karen _karen.cannizzaro @ prescott-a…
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0050_Sender_Harwood,Doug – FirstRecipient_- Subject_Alumni invite for Eric Marsh Foundation for W..
(3) 50s
0051_Sender_DeLong,Dana – FirstRecipient_Lee – Subject_how do I get FOIAS_ Arizona Open Records -…
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0051_Sender_Holly Neill – FirstRecipient – Subject_WFGI Article – History of Granite Mountain Int…
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0051_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_troy. steinbrink @ p rescott-az.g o v – Subject_Frozen Yoga…
(3) 51s
0053_Sender_Crouse,Patti – FirstRecipient__joy C_ _johnny.and.joy.c_ – Subject_RSVP deadline and …
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0053_Sender_Harwood,Doug – FirstRecipient_Bates – Subject_investigation – 06-04-2014.p d f
(2) 52s
January 10, 2020, 7:07pm by the requester
You all exhausted yet on just my ONE request?
Just wondering.
I lived it the first time around so to re-do it for you all –
it is what it is
and we have Marty Cole’s distasteful demeanor to me last week to thank for this release of public records and the requests. because he took it personal..
so he does not have to take it personal…he can now add others to that list. It was never just him…Hope it helps him to get less agitated because I am tired of the melting snowflakes,,,let’s get real…
own up people…you lied Cole to me last week
why?
————
Joy’s reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
there is actually (3) 46s
Correction
one was on page 6
January 10, 2020, 7:17pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0029_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis – Subject_Need assistance – 01-06-2015.pdf
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0029_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Lee,Michelle _michelle.lee @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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0030_Sender_Bryan Martyn – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_Yarnell Sub-Committees – 01-22-2015.p d f
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0030_Sender_Cooley,Tom – FirstRecipient_Cornish – Subject_HS82808_6x6 Radio installation – 12-07-…
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0030_Sender_Deborah Pfingston – FirstRecipient__Holly Neill_ _holly_ – Subject_Leonard Hunter yhf…
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0030_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_FW_ With si…
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0031_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Update -…
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0031_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Post Trauma…
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0033_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Su…
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0033_Sender_Herrington,Tim – FirstRecipient_marsha.collier @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Run to Remem…
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0033_Sender_Roxanne Warneke – FirstRecipient__Audrey Walleser_ – Subject_InvestigationProjectWFGI…
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0034_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Su…
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0034_Sender_Bonney,Amy – FirstRecipient_Small – Subject_Turbyfill – 02-25-2016.p d f
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0035_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
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0035_Sender_Willis,Darrell – FirstRecipient__Amanda Beno Marsh_ – Subject_Family in need – 04-22-…
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0035_Sender_Willis,Darrell – FirstRecipient__Station 71_ _station71 @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_A…
you have not made it to the limelight yet
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FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.light @ prescott-…
(2) of 29, 31, 34
(3) of 33, 35
(4) of 30
January 10, 2020, 7:32pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
correction-
there is page 5 another 37 so that makes it (3) 37 so not 2.
January 10, 2020, 7:27pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0037_Sender_Lee,Michelle – FirstRecipient_yarnellhikers19 @ gmail.c o m – Subject_how do I get FOIAS_…
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0037_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_marsha.collier @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Bi-Weekly Upda…
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0038_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Hi -…
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0038_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
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0040_Sender_Don Boursier – FirstRecipient_agraeser @ f s.fed.us – Subject_Yarnell Hill Fire Operatio…
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0040_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ prescott-az.gov_ – Subject_RSVP dea…
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0041_Sender_Melissa Bates – FirstRecipient_Archer,Jeffrey _jeffrey.archer @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subj…
I just met him this past week in person
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0041_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Lucas,Ralph _ralph.lucas @ prescott-az…
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0043_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.gov_ – Subject_Su…
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0043_Sender_glen hopkinson – FirstRecipient_Willis – Subject_Memorial Design Sub-Committee – 02-1…
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0043_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.gov_ – Subjec…
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0044_Sender_Lee,Michelle – FirstRecipient_Beegle – Subject_how do I get FOIAS_ Arizona Open Recor…
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0044_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Reminder – …
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0045_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Su…
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0045_Sender_Fred S – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_Newly released YH Fiire photos and videos…
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0045_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Weekly Update…
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0045_Sender_Zelms,Alison – FirstRecipient_Wertheim,Pete _pete.wertheim @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
There are (2) of 37, 38, 40, 41, 44 and (3) of 43 and 45
January 10, 2020, 7:20pm by the requester
Joy’s reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
correction there is (2) 28s-
one is on the page 4
January 10, 2020, 7:42pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
correction- there is (3) 20s.
January 10, 2020, 8:02pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0020_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Lee,Michelle _michelle.lee @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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0021_Sender_holly839bug – FirstRecipient__Deborah Pfingston_ deborah pfingston – Subject_B…
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0021_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
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0022_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_Zelms – Subject_Bi-Weekly Update – 09-11-2015.p d f
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0022_Sender_Morales,Sarah – FirstRecipient_Higgs – Subject_Please Call – 07-09-2018.p d f
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0022_Sender_sonnygilly – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ p rescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_UPD…
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0022_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Ripley,Linda _linda.ripley @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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0023_Sender_John N Maclean – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Sub…
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0023_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient__Willis, Darrell_ _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_w…
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0023_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_PRR – Fred S – 02-07-2017…
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0024_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Su…
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0024_Sender_Cooley,Tom – FirstRecipient_Moser – Subject_Yarnell Hill Fire Stafride – 04-15-2016.p d f
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0024_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Ripley,Linda _linda.ripley @ prescott-az.g o v _ – Subject…
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0025_Sender_Anderson,Joyce – FirstRecipient_Ripley – Subject_PRR – Fred S – 02-07-2017.p d f
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0025_Sender_Jeremiah King – FirstRecipient_Bauman,Dan _dan.bauman @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Read…
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0026_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_Su…
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0026_Sender_code3podcast=FirstRecipient_Light,Dennis _dennis.l…
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0026_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Lee,Michelle _michelle.lee @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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(2) of 25
(3) of 23, 24, 26
(4) of 22
January 10, 2020, 7:45pm by the requester
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Did you all notice how they oddly numbered them with 2 of this and 3 of that but at the end of the request – did the final count match?
We are half way there to a bogus records request
Yes, I learned a lot on this one
Not such a large scope in the future-
bear with me…
—————–
Joy’s Reply:
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0013_Sender_George Moyers – FirstRecipient_Cannizzaro,Karen _karen.cannizzaro @ prescott-az.g o v_ – …
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0013_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient__yarnell hikers_ _yarnellhikers19 – Subject_…
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0014_Sender_amandabeno – FirstRecipient_darrel.willis1[ fortherecordhispersonalemailwasunredacted] Subject_Please read from Am…
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0014_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug _doug.harwood @ prescott-az.gov_ – Subject_Su…
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0014_Sender_Holly Neill – FirstRecipient_darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_FB post – 12-17…
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0014_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_Sventek – Subject_PRR – Fred S – 02-27-2017.p d f
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0014_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_He…
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0015_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_Lucas – Subject_Information Only_ How we got here and …
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0015_Sender_Rush,Michelle – FirstRecipient_Ripley – Subject_PRR – Fred S- 01-27-2017.p d f
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0016_Sender_dou- FirstRecipient__City Clerk Staff_ _City.Clerk @ prescott-az. go v_ – Subject_P…
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0016_Sender_Zelms,Alison – FirstRecipient_Paladini – Subject_Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Fore…
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0017_Sender_FireRescue1 Newsletter – FirstRecipient_Haskell,David _david.haskell @ prescott-az.g o v _…
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0017_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Paladini,Jon _jon.paladini @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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0018_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_Anderson – Subject_PRR – Fred S – 01-31-2017.p d f
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0018_Sender_Sventek,Jaimie – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.gov – Subject_Days of …
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0018_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Lucas,Ralph _ralph.lucas @ prescott-az…
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0019_Sender_doug – FirstRecipient_Ripley,Linda _linda.ripley@ prescott-az.gov_ – Subject_PRR -…
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0019_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Crouse,Patti _patti.crouse @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_new phot..
(2) of 215,16,17,19
(3) of 13, 18
(5) of 14
January 10, 2020, 8:11pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0006_Sender_Hall, Wes – FirstRecipient__Hall, Wes_ _Wesley.Hall @ amarillo.g o v_ – Subject_FD…
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0006_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v _ – Subjec…
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0007_Sender_joy C – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_good…
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0007_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.gov – Subject_B..
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0007_Sender_Olson,Stacy – FirstRecipient_McInnes – Subject_Amanda Beno – 08-27-2018.p d f
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0007_Sender_yarnell hikers – FirstRecipient_Paladini,Jon _jon.paladini @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject…
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0008_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_ – Subject_c Marsh Foundation December Newsletter – 12-2…
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0008_Sender_City Clerk Staff – FirstRecipient_Beegle,Francis _francis.beegle @ prescott-az.g o v_ – S…
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0008_Sender_Lee,Michelle – FirstRecipient__yarnell hikers_ _yarnellhikers19 – Subject_…
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0008_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Cooley – Subject_FW_ Wildland – 02-28-…
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0009_Sender_Willis,Darrell – FirstRecipient_Willis – Subject_RE_ A Week To Remember, Reflect and …
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0010_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_yarnellhikers19Subject_Public Records Requ…
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0010_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
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0010_Sender_yarnellhikers1 FirstRecipient_Lee,Michelle _michelle.lee @ prescott-az.g o v…
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0011_Sender_do – FirstRecipient_Ripley,Linda _linda.ripley @ prescott-az.g o v _ – Subject_PRR -…
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0011_Sender_Jacobsen,Mary – FirstRecipient_Fousek – Subject_Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Fores…
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0011_Sender_John N Maclean – FirstRecipient__Darrell Willis_ _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.gov_ – S…
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0012_Sender_City Clerk Staff – FirstRecipient_Beegle,Francis _francis.beegle @ prescott-az.g o v_ – S…
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0012_Sender_FireRescue1 Newsletter – FirstRecipient_Murphy,Ryan _ryan.murphy @ prescott-az.g o v_ – S
There are
(2) of 12
(3) of 6,7,10,11
(4) of 8
January 10, 2020, 9:14pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
0001_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug – Subject_Survivor Retreat – 01-27-2017.pdf
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0001_Sender_Anderson,Joyce – FirstRecipient_Ripley – Subject_PRR – Fred S – 01-31-2017.pdf
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0001_Sender_dou- FirstRecipient__City Clerk Staff_ _City.Clerk @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subject_P…
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0001_Sender_Western Fire Chiefs Association – FirstRecipient_Luedeman,Scott _scott.luedeman @ presc…
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0002_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug – Subject_Survivor Retreat – 01-27-2017.pdf
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0002_Sender_City Clerk Staff – FirstRecipient_Beegle,Francis _francis.beegle @ prescott-az.gov_ – S…
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0002_Sender_Devendorf,Don – FirstRecipient_Bauman – Subject_Invite to drive a buggy to Phoenix on…
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0002_Sender_do- FirstRecipient__Russell Long_ _rblong @ blm.gov_ – Subject_Individual Blame …
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0002_Sender_sonny gilly – FirstRecipient_Willis,Darrell _darrell.willis @ prescott-az.g o v_ – Subjec…
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0003_Sender_Amy Armenta – FirstRecipient_Harwood,Doug – Subject_Survivor Retreat – 01-27-2017.p d f
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0003_Sender_City Clerk Staff – FirstRecipient_Beegle,Francis _francis.beegle @ prescott-az.g o v_ – S…
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0004_Sender_George Moyers – FirstRecipient_Cannizzaro,Karen _karen.cannizzaro @ prescott-az.g o v_ – …
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0004_Sender_Hall, Wes – FirstRecipient_pdmead @ alaska.edu – Subject_FDSOA Board of Directors Elect…
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0004_Sender_Lucas,Ralph – FirstRecipient_Light – Subject_FW_ Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Invitat…
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0004_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_Anderson – Subject_PRR – Fred S- 01-31-2017.p d f
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0005_Sender_Hall, Wes – FirstRecipient__Hall, Wes_ _Wesley.Hall @ amarillo.gov_ – Subject_FDSOA Boa…
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0005_Sender_Holly Neill – FirstRecipient_darrell.willis @ prescott-az.gov – Subject_clarity – 12-12…
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0005_Sender_Light,Dennis – FirstRecipient_troy.steinbrink @ prescott-az.g o v – Subject_Bi-Weekly Upd…
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0005_Sender_Ripley,Linda – FirstRecipient_do – Subject_PRR – Fred S- 01-31-2017…
(2) of 3s
(4) of 1,4,5
(5) of 2s
January 10, 2020, 10:18pm by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
as you note below I started being aware around the 40-50[#] range that there was a numbers concern so anything above 50 I did not yet trace if there is 2 or more the same number
January 10, 2020, 10:23pm by the requester
——————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thanks for the correction on my name from Joyce to Joy- there is more than one Joy Collura so I would appreciate the A. in Joy A. Collura to not confuse me with other Joys with my name.
Emails- highlighted 757 on Records Log.
I went through and I see 634 items under EMAIL 634 file, 27 for Cooley file, 45 for Troy’s file.= 706 items to download plus external mailed to me so maybe the external has more but I need clarification how to comprehend the Records Log. Where does 757 play in to what I see on my end?
I thought it was my legal right to see the documents minus proper legal redactions [emphasis added] to know that the documents exist so I can still see dates and such just not content (blacked out) for:
Withheld – Not Released Copyrighted Materials 10
Attorney Priv – Drafts Not For Disclosure 218
HIPPA – Private Info 12
Applicable to Request 747
NOT for Release – Protected – Identity Protection, Private Info 22
Duplicates 227
Total email items 1993
Non – email – Personnel Docs HR Records Not Applicable to Request
where is the Arizona Stat the whole document can be withheld? Other entities I get the Hippa minus redactions, Attorney Priv minus redactions, NOT for Release – Protected – Identity Protection, Private Info minus redactions but even though emails are blacked out the names and content I still see Date of Documents. I am allowed that much. And to me, dates matter.
So need more clarity why I see 634 emails but log states 757 but total on log is 1993 and before request is closed I hope you place 1993 emails using the proper redactions because the dates matter to me.
Now I will check that all items downloaded and when I finish I will recap and let you know.
January 11, 2020, 11:59am by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
page 29 – Completed download – links in page 29 can be locked but need further data for:
0600 reason for redactions
0604 this is my email and I want you to lift the redacted areas to see who I wrote- it is from me.
0617 a huge oops on areas that should have been redacted by you and you will have to alert the people you did not redact especially GMHS loved ones tied to this request. Once your released it to me I do not have to legally redact it and my coauthor on presentation already has copies so it is what it is- I sent the copies so there was a second area it existed besides me then I went to my external hd and I am making sure one by one I have it on my drive and to see if any corrections on emails –
0620 reason for redactions
page 30 Completed download – links can be locked in page 30 but need further data for:
0629 reason for redactions
0635 why the last email redacted
0636 you have a security problem when you wrote NONE on BC it allows me to see what you hid; “leah_c_hickma[Redacted here] so alert her in this too. I saw the NONE but I am not going back to old ones down below but on your end you may want to check but this end it linked right to “leah_c_hickman[redacted here]”
page 31 Completed download – links can be locked in page 31 but need further data for:
0648- reason for redactions
0650- reason for redactions- should not be on this email
0651 is my email and I want it unredacted- that’s weird. That email vanished off my pc and it shows a blocked out name- I want that name; it matters.
0653- – reason for redactions
0654- this is a serious illegal redaction on this one – I know the original I have seen so this needs to be re-done
0655:reason for redactions
0657- reason for redactions Again… more confusion on the redactions here. The ‘From:’ field has been fully ‘redacted’ when it is perfectly obvious that the email was SENT by Deborah Pfingston. Also… Holly Neill is shown unredacted as a one of the receivers of the email… but she is NOT a Prescott employee. So why would ANY of the other names be REDACTED if it was okay to show Holly Neill’s name? What CRITERIA were you actually using for these ‘redaction’ decisions?
0662 why did you keep private email “leah_c_hickman[redacted here]”” without redaction; reason? – I think you have to notify her now that she was accidentally revealed in a PRR. You will have to send her 0662 showing what happened tied to Request 18-541 for protection of identity reasons- I am not accountable for it being given to me that way. Once released it is what it is and I sent it to my contributing author because it matched perfect to a Summer 2020 presentation we are doing and a few others and I just now caught it after it went via email when going through each email to see if it is on my external drive and go over any inquiries. I wish I saw it sooner yet my eyes are hazy and boggy for HOW MANY HOURS fixated doing this-
0663 – why the redaction of names?
page 32 Completed download – links can be locked but need further data for:
I do have to chuckle when you redact my hiking partner’s email which I know but left Doug Harwood’s personal email on link connector for 0676 – jharwood7[redacted here]”
I have so many entities records that if you redact it does not mean another area did but it is a time consuming venture I know not just for you searching and preparing but for me to gather and organize and learn why I lived on June 30, 2013 and 19 men did not when we were all up on the Weavers. You know in my Investigation courses I have learned so much and so I am glad I gather documents because we are taught not to investigate but find the rose colored glasses and create a narrative- its mind blowing the current training.
0668- why does it say MEMBERS and TO: is “whited out”- reason for any redactions
0669- why are the CC names blocked – reason for redaction please.
0670- Why is the Alumni invite TO area “whited out” – I asked for the Alumni List in 2016 and the TO: has been “whited out”
0676- I would like the name – if you are blocking out the email- why the redactions made on that email thread?
0678- I would like the name – if you are blocking out the email- why the redactions made on that email thread?
Joy’s Reply:
I went ahead and made new request 20-29 for what OSHA saw and is public records on Willis and Eric S Marsh’s Cell records on all cells based on 0679.
I went ahead and made new request 20-28 for this “Wildland Fire Museum / Learning Center” and 0680 inquiries.
0682- reason for redaction. why were names redacted.
Wildland Fire Museum / Learning Center Stakeholders Meeting- where is the roll call roster who attended- that document that should be with this one.
Also can you get the actual document to show which Entity ID it is referring to when it says “Wildland Fire Museum / Learning Center” is it: LLC Entity ID: S9040065 (GRANITE MOUNTAIN INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW that was tied to CITY OF PRESCOTT), 22547601(Statutory Agent
Jason Lohman; spouse to Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman), Inactive (4/14/2018) N22430477 (GRANITE MOUNTAIN INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW (GMIHC) LEARNING A CHARLES ANTHONY SHAW) and do you have the document file of their open meeting document history ( should be more documents than this as shows on: https://www.azoca.gov/open-meeting-and-public-records-law/open-meetings/.
However I need more clarity and more emails because log shows 1993 emails and I should see 1993 emails with reasonably segregable portion of a record that shall be provided to me with proper redactions as well have a file with lawyer emails and hippa file and etc so I can see the 218 physical emails with redactions in 1 file and 10 in copyright and etc-
Just omitting and withholding is not sufficient.
Also when I saw “Confidentiality” -NOT for Release – Protected – Identity Protection, Private Info- can you clarify that you agree that it is made so by law, not by a rubber stamp, made confidential by statute, rule, or a recognized privilege and Note: Fear of litigation does not preclude disclosure. I state I am owed those records with the redact protected information and release the rest Carlson v. Pima County, 141 Ariz. 487, 687 P.2d 1242 (Ariz. 1984). Thank you.
Where can I locate the Tom Cooley emails? Duane’s emails? [more of] Troy’s emails?
January 11, 2020, 10:59pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
There was an email thread between Willis and Amanda Marsh as well as one with Pfingston in regards to asking Willis for support in regards to me so you may have to look in trash recovery because I want that one for sure. (2014-2015 years) – it is not allowed to delete YHF records like that and I want it.
In some of this request, you have redacted ALL of the names on the ‘distribution list’… but this time you HAVE left the name of the Prescott employee who was receiving that email UNREDACTED.
Whoever the Prescott employee(s) were that were on that ‘distribution list’ were
also REDACTED… and that is ILLEGAL.
If it was OK ( to you all ) to show Pfingston, Willis and Neill… then WHO are the others who you
decided it was NOT OK to show… and WHY?
It’s hard to tell what CRITERIA you are using for picking/choosing what to redact and what not to.
It is NOT up to any individual’s whims to pick and chose who or what to redact.
There are RULES and LAWS about that.
Whether or not the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire was both a ‘disaster’ AND ( hence ) a “Historical Fire” it not a matter of opinion.
Let me show you…
It has been CODIFIED as such.
It has been LEGALLY declared and codified as such at every level that matters… by County, State and Federal agencies.
On the morning of July 1, 2013… Arizona State Governor Jan Brewer SIGNED a ‘Declaration of Disaster’ for
the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire… and at 10:30 AM that same morning she ANNOUNCED this fact in her first public
press conference following the tragic loss of the GM Hotshots.
The same day… the Yavapai County Board of Commissioners officially issued their OWN “Declaration of Disaster”
for Yavapai County and the community of Yarnell. This Yavapai County “Declaration of Disaster” was then
RATIFIED at the Yavapai County Board of Commissioners meeting on August 5, 2013.
On September 12, 2013… the FEDERAL U.S. Small Business Agency issued their own official “Declaration of Disaster”
for the June 30, 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire and the community became immediately available to access funds from
their own Federal level Disaster Relief Funds.
So that’s the ‘full monty”. Official “Disaster Declarations” at the County, State and FEDERAL levels.
So ALL RECORDS that pertain to the “Historic” Disaster known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire are now ( and have
always been ) REQUIRED BY LAW to have a RETENTION PERIOD of PERMANENT ( FOREVER ).
The destruction, tampering or obfuscation of any/all public records related to this Historic disaster would be ILLEGAL.
Why are there gaps between numbers and why so many numbers of one number at many times?
The total redactions of ALL the names of the persons who RECEIVED that email from Holly Neill is ILLEGAL.
You are NOT allowing me to see WHO ( which government employee or employees ) RECEIVED that email
You MAY have some limited ability to REDACT the names of non-government employees from the headers of these emails
( I am still researching that and I get back to you )… but it is ILLEGAL to HIDE the NAMES of the actual government employees who RECEIVED that email ( which you have done ).
All you have given me in that attached email is something that was SENT by Holly Neill.
You are NOT allowing me to see WHO ( which government employee or employees ) RECEIVED that email.
That is ILLEGAL.
From the following ( official ) Arizona Library Archives Agency website..
https://www.azlibrary.gov/sites/default/files/arm-guidelines-public-records-sent-received-email.p d f
In those RULES for EMAILS there is this specific reference to the ‘metadata’ ( header )section of the emails….
————————————————————————————————
3. An e-mail record includes metadata (minimally the sender, all recipients, date and time sent,
subject), the body of the message, any attachments, documentation of all recipients. If an e-
mail record is sent to a distribution list, it MUST be possible to demonstrate WHO received the
message, not just the name of the distribution list.
————————————————————————————————
In other words… if the email qualifies as a PUBIC RECORD… you CANNOT HIDE exactly WHO sent or
WHO received the email, even if that person was part of a ‘distribution list’ like the ones
seen on Holly Neills emails.
NOTE: As you already know very well… when it mentions ‘retention period’ in these
rules and regulations that ALSO means that for ANYTHING related to the Historic
Yarnell Hill Fire… that “retention period” is required by LAW to be PERMANENT ( FOREVER ).
——————————————————————————
STATE OF ARIZONA
Guidelines for Managing Public Records Sent and Received Via Electronic Mail
Scope and Responsibility
This document provides guidelines for the management (creation, maintenance, access and use, and
disposition) of e-mail messages in accordance with ( Arizona ) state and federal legal requirements.
Public officials and other custodians of public records (hereafter referred to collectively as
“agencies”) shall preserve and protect public records in accordance with these guidelines and to maintain documentation as evidence that these standards are being met.
These guidelines apply to state and local government agencies and political subdivisions in the State of Arizona.
Authority
These guidelines are established by the Director, Arizona State Library, Archives and Public Records
pursuant to ( Arizona Law ) ARS § 41-1345.A.1. It is promulgated by the Arizona State Library,
Archives and Public Records, an agency of the Legislature.
This document was initially prepared by a committee acting as advisors to the Director. The committee
was composed of records management professionals with representation from State, County, and
Municipal Government. Its purpose was to develop guidelines for managing electronic messages that are
public records.
Guidelines
1. E-mail messages created or received by a government employee are public records
under ARS 41 1350 if it documents the organization, functions, policies, decisions, procedures,
operations or other activities of the political organization.
2. E-mail messages sent by an agency employee in their official capacity using another system (for
example, a personal, home e-mail system) are public records.
3. An e-mail record includes metadata (minimally the sender, all recipients, date and time sent,
subject), the body of the message, any attachments, documentation of all recipients. If an e-
mail record is sent to a distribution list, it MUST be possible to demonstrate WHO received the
message, not just the name of the distribution list.
4. Agencies shall establish policies and procedures for managing e-mail created or received by the
agency, including preserving and filing, access and use, and disposition. Such policies shall
address the use of e-mail for sending sensitive, proprietary, or confidential information and shall
also address any state or federal legal requirements specific to the agency’s work.
5. Agencies shall make employees aware that an e-mail may be a record and shall provide employees
training in policies and procedures for properly managing e-mail.
6. Agencies must make all e-mail records available to the public upon request under the Arizona
Inspection of Public Records Law (ARS 39-121) during the required retention period, unless the
content of the message falls under one of the exceptions contained in the law or in any other
statute, regulation, Executive Order, or rule of court or have Historical Significance.
7. E-mail messages that do not meet the criteria of the Arizona statutory definition of a public record
may be deleted at any time, unless they become part of some official record as a result of special
circumstances or Historical Significance.
8. Agencies must retain e-mail records for the period of time specified on a records retention and
disposition schedule approved by the Arizona State Library, Archives and Public Records.
Retention or disposition of e-mail messages must be related to the information they contain or the
purpose they serve. Agencies may not routinely delete all e-mail after an arbitrary amount of time.
9. Agencies must suspend destruction of e-mail records relevant to any reasonably foreseeable
legal action, audit, or government investigation until the conclusion of such action, even if their
retention period has passed. Agencies should suspend destruction of potentially relevant records
as soon as there is reasonable expectation of such action, regardless of whether a legal notice
of such action has been served.
10. Agencies must report the destruction of public records without legal, administrative, historical, or
other value to Arizona State Library, Archives and Public Records (ARS § 41-1351) on an annual basis.
11. Agencies have the option of printing and filing e-mail records or may use software to facilitate the
management and disposition of e-mail records. Agencies may not use backups of e-mail systems
for retention of e-mail records.
12. E-mail records that have permanent retention periods must be transferred from the e-mail system and stored in either an electronic recordkeeping system or another proper recordkeeping system and we already confirmed CITY OF PRESCOTT has not transferred records to State Archival Records since the 1970s.
If someone there tries to argue with me that they don’t think it’s okay to even show the NAMES of people who don’t
work for Prescott… then why are we even seeing SOME of the non-Prescott employee names ( like
Nowicki and Neill and Pginfston, etc. )… but not ALL of the non-Prescott employee names. You understand?
That looks like BIAS and illegal decision making with regards to who or what to redact.
January 11, 2020, 10:50pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
EMAIL 634 FILE- I will work on 1-29 pages soon.
January 11, 2020, 11:06pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Before I began for today I scanned thru looking for the Nov 2014, Dec 2014, and Jan 2015 emails with Willis which are not there but I want all of his emails on those months especially the email thread between him and I that had Yarnell Hill Fire updates.
January 12, 2020, 10:55am by the requester
————————————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
done downloading for today.
bandwidth slow in my area.
So I was able to get this done:
page 27 Completed- page 27 link can be locked
0551 TO: area is whited out ( illegal) plus with words like “GMHIC Alumni”- and I requested that numerous times then it is admission you have it and refuse to give me?
0552 reason for redactions
0553 reason for redactions
0554 reason for redactions
0560 you will have to notify law professor Nowicki’s personal number was not redacted
0562 reason for redactions
0565 reason for redactions
page 28 Completed- page 28 link can be locked
0575 the TO: is whited out- reason?
0578 reason for redactions in manner shown (especially headers and email names)
January 12, 2020, 6:17pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I will work on 1-26 tomorrow.
Good night.
The PRR records area about the Film and them not compensating the City was hard for me to read.
That should have been a MUST.
My apologies they did not.
I have been asked as the Survivor of the Weavers to do books and movies and always turned them down but if I ever did your City was on my list to donate and the kids of the GMHS-
What your city faced was wrong because some loved ones tarnished you publicly without all the information at hand and too many PFD employees and YCSO dedicated their time to the horrors of that weekend and the aftermath and have scars that run so deep.
Those folks in the crucial spots would humbly not accept funds but I would ensure the budgets would be met to make sure their jobs remained.
I am sorry that happened to your City. It was distasteful.
That’s Hollywood- eh.
Only true complete lessons can be learned when we openly share about what happened not in back channel mannerisms.
if I do not share they all think I am holding it all in and banking the data then when I do share I am the drama gal-
You can’t win!
I could say screw this all
Let someone else pull records- Nowicki is the one who taught me.
but then the faces of the kids are right there- vividly.
I need to stay the course.
Keep sharing. Keep getting educated.
Thank you for all the hard work you did for this lengthy request.
I know it is “time-consuming” – imagine my world … you are just one entity I pull from so I am very loyal and dedicated to documentation process with many entities.
I learned as I go to Law and Fire Investigation with Forensic Weather training that documents are rarely pulled anymore because it is not an investigation but to find the good and teach a happy lesson; no action required.
I was with those men and I just want to figure it all out who is who and why-
Night.
January 12, 2020, 6:33pm by the requester
You saw all those redactions, right? Emails missing.
you saw it, right!
Now I spent all that time documenting the areas missing and I get this – REQUEST CLOSED!
bullshit
————————
City of Prescott’s Reply
Request Closed Hide Public
Request Visibility: Unpublished
Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Please stop entering questions and downloading files. If you have a question please call. Please remember to use your ethics when viewing the information you were given and do not abuse information that may have been given to you inadvertently.These files were worked on by multiple parties and may have been redacted with a slightly different view by each party.
Thank you.
January 13, 2020, 7:55am
————————————
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
When you closed this request- is it safe to say you are not going to give reasons for the redactions or the missing emails?
May I send this to the ombudsman to review?
There is illegal areas and this should not be closed.
I will call you right now.
January 13, 2020, 7:59am by the requester
————————
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am confused by your statement “ethics when viewing the information you were given and do not abuse information”
I am gearing up to go to the Academy in less than ten days and you give me a short time stamp to review these so I downloaded on a slow bandwidth and forwarded it to a few because I never am the only one with the records due to the controversial nature and I keep the main set with a friend’s coroner and I never read the content until I did and I noted each error to you to fix and then you throw back on me request closed and this statement “use ethics when viewing the information you were given and do not abuse information” yet those records are not just with me- I have to because of who I am in this keep duplicates with trusted others so I am not responsible for others having the data that your entity placed out wrong.
I want the redacted areas still that I am legally allowed to have so I will keep going through and make my list of the errors because it seems after I send this I will have to save as PDF this page to ensure I have a copy because no way should this request be labelled closed. There is still more to go on receiving emails that are missing and I still have the attachment item due in the mail.
I called and left a message at 8:03am. If I do not hear this week any feedback I will file complaint with Ombudsman and Arizona State Records. This needs to be an “open” request still. There is illegal sections and I do not accept them “as is”-
January 13, 2020, 8:34am by the requester
——————————-
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Since there is multiple who worked on this request- I would like the FULL NAME who wrote this today:
“Your public records request has been completed and closed. Please LOG IN to view the request and any documents entered.
Please stop entering questions and downloading files. If you have a question please call. Please remember to use your ethics when viewing the information you were given and do not abuse information that may have been given to you inadvertently.These files were worked on by multiple parties and may have been redacted with a slightly different view by each party.
Thank you. ”
January 13, 2020, 7:55am”
January 13, 2020, 9:10am by the requester
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am really sorry you have different style of redactions there at your entity yet I do think once I get it to my end and I challenge it- it does need to be corrected / re-opened and I will continue to leave the list of errors for “paper trail” in case this escalates to Arizona State Records and the Ombudsman /Attorney General – which it seems with you closing the request falls under denial of fulfilling the records and it is not fulfilled that it is leaning towards such route.
You also gave me such a short time to download and review such a large scope file so you suggested to call and I did but since there is so many errors I do plan to use the list format so you can work on the areas I challenged and if I hear nothing by 1/20/20 why you closed the request that is not fulfilled than at that time I will start by filing a complaint with Ombudsman.
This was a 2018 large scope request where you gave me one month to handle / download link by link versus a zip file download option but you still have areas lacking from original request of records I seeked- so again, should not be closed. I also have a legal right to list the items I challenge. Since it is such a large scope I am showing you daily my progress and where I note errors or where request is not fulfilled yet. I am not doing anything outside paper trailing and calling with every error (since too many) is not proper but I did such call as requested and no return call to date yet to go over this. Also by me naming off documents it should make it easier to show you who needs to gain more knowledge on what can and cannot be redacted but just to email and think saying you all have different styles does not exempt you from the law and correcting the errors. You cannot just state that and then close the request ???
I did receive the letter and memory stick today late afternoon yet that too was not complete because I know there were attachments that never made it to that memory stick. Off the bat I know 0475 attachment was not on stick but just skimming I know much more looks amiss. I will finish scoping these files 1-634 but I am making you aware I did not get all attachments so I would need a log record how come that happened and why some were not attached.
page 24 – Completed download – links in page 24 can be locked but need further data for:
0467 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0470 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0476 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0479 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0483- need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0488 – You will have to notify Harwood family you have their personal information left on there.
page 25 – Completed download – links in page 25 can be locked but need further data for:
0498 SERIOUS- need to notify Nowicki her private contact and physical address was shown – I want to reaffirm ETHICS is not a way to address it back on me, these files were copied and sent to others before I opened them. As I go through I am letting you know. I had to send them asap because I am gearing up for my Fire Season 2020 training then time on the ground. The download part has been slow to review and comment-
0499 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
502- need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0503 SERIOUS- need to notify Nowicki her private contact and physical address was shown – I want to reaffirm ETHICS is not a way to address it back on me, these files were copied and sent to others before I opened them. As I go through I am letting you know. I had to send them asap because I am gearing up for my Fire Season 2020 training then time on the ground. The download part has been slow to review and comment-
0506:need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0507:need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0509: need to be looked at- redacted reason???(GMHS ALUMNI) TO: “whited out”
0517 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0518 need to be looked at- redacted reason???
0520 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0522 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
page 26 – Completed download – links in page 26 can be locked but need further data for:
0529 need to be looked at- redacted names ??? and hows private email and need to notify: jharwood7[redacted here] and ; asinclair1[redacted here]
0530 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0535 redacted names (GMHS ALUMNI- again that is illegal) TO: “whited out”
0546 need to be looked at- redacted names (GMHS ALUMNI- again that is illegal)
0547 need to be looked at- redacted names
January 13, 2020, 8:22pm by the requester
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Requester + Staff
Work on pages 1-23 tomorrow late day-
January 13, 2020, 8:24pm by the requester
———————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff will review to see if there is anything further to provide in records for this request. If there is anything found, we will provide such documents.
Please note – It is preferred that this venue is used for document requests and transmission only.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 9:17am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
If you want to use an external area to communicate, provide such email. Thank you.
Phone communication is not a good paper trail since this is a large scope request.
Otherwise if not shown an email late today when I address the area(s) I will keep using this area. I appreciate you fulfilling the additional emails – log said 1993 so I want to see that with proper redaction(s) but
still not seeing Duane Allen Steinbrink or Willis professional file, ALL on Nowicki lacks in this record so I made new request being more specific as I asked for that so request should be open-
Also I defined my meaning of “record” so please review the definition and in writing confirm you did cover all the areas set in that definition on all the people I asked on in the request.
thank you
Best Regards.
January 14, 2020, 10:24am by the requester
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for your response. You may continue to use this as communication.
It appears you have already entered in new requests for any items or information that you feel may not have been provided. That will help staff fulfill the remaining things you wish to have provided in an orderly manner. Rather than have so many things compacted into one request. Too many items requested in one request does cause confusion.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 11:19am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
———————–
JOY”S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
It appears you have already entered in new requests for any items or information that you feel may not have been provided.
No. I made new requests for being specific on Nowicki
and additional on who is who on the Learning Center- nothing else-
The Steinbrinks and Willis new requests are separate and nothing to do with the professional certifications I asked in this request.
**down below are some very serious areas with the numbers and concerns that still need addressing as well as written communication of any other areas needing addressed. The new requests are defined above and are separate then areas needing attending below. I agree in the future it will work best as itemized versus large scope and I will avoid doing a large scope again because I agree it does cause confusion neither of us want or need. Have a beautiful day.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 11:42am by the requester
Request Reopened Public
January 14, 2020, 1:25pm
https://youtu.be/LRP8d7hhpoQ
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Requester + Staff
Please confirm items still needed.
Thanks.
January 14, 2020, 1:25pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
—————————–
City of Prescott’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
From the original request is this the only line item needed?
3. Complete History and All types of professional certifications for both structural and wild land and others and evaluation reviews and resource wild land fire documents that had the following name (any type of document): Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink / Duane A Steinbrink, Troy Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man.
Thanks.
January 14, 2020, 1:27pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
————————
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
City of Prescott’s Reply:
Please confirm items still needed.
Thanks.
JOY’S REPLY:
Unfortunately to us both- this page represents a long list below showing it as I go through the request I have jotted them here as I went through each pages keeping you in the loop as I go because I still have 20 something pages to go through plus Troy and Tom’s files and the attachment that was snail mailed and awaiting more on Steinbrink / Willis professional profile.
My eyes are hazy and today I am not spending too much time online to give my eyes a break but I am here doing it until 4-5pm mark then done for the day.
Post what I see as I go through at the end of my online time today as I have been in prior days.
And start again- but yeah just hit “end” and scroll up to see it all because I made notes as I am going through-
The important area is the notifications because I know Nowicki has connections in that City area by what folks share and I want to make sure I did my part.
That lady’s agenda still is unknown (except John MacLean in a email to Willis said she was a researcher to him years before and he said that in 2014 so that makes it before YHF) and she is not one I want after me because I did not note it if she pulls my requests ever.
Mine is because without the documents fully I need to fact check what City FD folks have told me.
Between us even though this is public records- forward a note to your FD folks they need to run any conversations through City legal because the loose lips are why I am here pulling records. I am fact checking.
January 14, 2020, 1:38pm by the requester
—————————-
try again – 2:42pm pc is running slow here
JOY’S REPLY
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am short on time today but I will quickly jot the areas from original request
Dear Requester,
From the original request is this the only line item needed?
3. Complete History and All types of professional certifications for both structural and wild land and others and evaluation reviews and resource wild land fire documents that had the following name (any type of document): Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink / Duane A Steinbrink, (YES)
[plus]
Troy Duane Steinbrink
Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis (YES) and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man.
and
All emails and documents and records and texts with the name Elizabeth Nowicki.
(the recent 20-32 request submitted was the actual index / original request and content to be more specific since I did not see it in this request when asking for all- so that is separated out being I asked for the index too)
There was an email thread between Willis and Amanda Marsh as well as one with Pfingston tied in regards to asking Willis for support in regards to me so you may have to look in trash recovery because I want that one for sure. (2014-2015 years)
Definitely lacking important emails between Willis and Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman on Nov 2014 thru January 2015. He told us she emailed him for his support and we have external witnesses who heard him state that so there is those documents.
Missing attachments from memory stick mailed to me.
You have 1993 reported on index log so I want them minus redactions. One cannot just omit it just place it with proper redactions with date of the email.
A redaction / reasons index log and items corrected on ones done wrong. (Especially the Alumni one – that shows you have the Alumni list and I asked for it in 2016 and was denied it existed- that email shows it exists)
As well I requested any messages sent out to a phone from your email system with the following:
([REDACTED HERE]
I really want any type as described in my definition “records” pertaining to these names …..
Verizon- Willis- 928-[REDACTED HERE] and 928-[REDACTED HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13 and below is Willis’s tie to these numbers listed below and any others during the date range but I am fact checking currently.
Verizon- direct 928-[REDACTED HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
verizon- 928-7[REDACTED HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
Neutral Tandem- AZ LLC 520-[REDACTED HERE]
verizon-928-92[REDACTED HERE]and 928-9[REDACTED HERE] date range 6/28/13 thru 7/29/13
qwest/century link- 928-4[REDACTED HERE] and verizon 805 [REDACTED HERE]
verizon- 831 5[REDACTED HERE]
sprint- 928[REDACTED HERE]
verizon- 928-9[REDACTED HERE]
verizon- 928-7[REDACTED HERE]
Frontier CA verizon- 760[REDACTED HERE]
sprint 951-3[REDACTED HERE]
verizon 928 – 5[REDACTED HERE]
verizon 928-8[REDACTED HERE]
365 wireless 52[REDACTED HERE]
century link 928-4[REDACTED HERE]
I failed to see as described in original request these records for:
Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis and any misspellings of the name yet refer to same man, D[REDACTED HERE]
On some emails-
You are NOT allowing me to see WHO ( which government employee or employees ) RECEIVED that email.
That is ILLEGAL.
I am still working through as quick as I can (eye strain currently) and I think simply scrolling should show where areas lacked but I did note them all below what is missing in this request and it is such a LARGE scope so hard to create a MASTER list with this eye strain and not yet went fully though request so hopefully by Monday I get this area done before I head out to the Academy for my training-
Back to downloading for now.
January 14, 2020, 2:16pm by the requester
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I almost failed to redact the number area because my eyes are hazy…good catch on that but almost posted all the numbers…oops…getting tired
I am almost done with REQUEST ONE ;_)
try again … site is running slow
City of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I believe the following emails, if they exist in City records, will show up on your most recent request for emails for Amanda Marsh. Also, you made a request for all emails from Debra Pfingston that is still being worked on.
If this criteria is new: Definitely lacking important emails between Willis and Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman on Nov 2014 thru January 2015. He told us she emailed him for his support and we have external witnesses who heard him state that so there is those documents.
You will need to make a new request for it. I can only search for records that were listed in the original request portion of the request for this particular public record request.
Our IT Department was very thorough and many emails that did not pertain to your request for one keyword or another also showed up. Therefore, many emails that have nothing to do with your request were taken out. Like ads, training solicitation, emails from other departments that don’t relate, but had a keyword in it for a completely different reason or another.
We will continue to work on the items under number three of the original request.
Thanks.
January 14, 2020, 2:38pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
that is all I could do for today
logging off pc
eye strain pain bad.
page 23 – Half Completed download –
0447: need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0449 TO: “whited out” ( GMHS ALUMNI)
0451 need to be looked at- redacted names ??? and GMHS Leah’s number is shown
0461 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0460 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
January 14, 2020, 3:19pm by the requester
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City of Prescott Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
No records found for Duane Steinbrink on item #3, per state retention. Mr. Steinbrink retired in January of 2010.
Staff will continue to search the remaining items.
Thank you.
January 14, 2020, 3:39pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
[ world, how is that possible if he was part of the creation of the happenings and signed off on stuff overtime ??? didn’t he ??? – this area I will go look at all the GMHS certifications and see if any were after 2010 ]
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
State Retention may work on professional records but if any of his professional records INCLUDES the topic Yarnell, Yarnell Fire and or any Granite Mountain Hotshots / Crew 7 / any name that leads back to the men that died- then that area is Permanent records tie to a historical significant tragedy then I can see those records from his professional file. If I do not see that and you have since destroyed those areas I will file complaint with Arizona State Archival records because those records are tied to a tragedy should have since been transferred to Arizona State Archival records and they state the last transfer was in the 70s. So it is illegal to destroy records with any area like signing off on how the GMHS became a type 1 or any area Duane Steinbrink is tied into his professional profile tied to the tragedy.
Your reply is not sufficient and complete.
Just stating State Retention on the man who I have here on other records signed a lot of areas to the GMHS is not exempt until his profile is examined and if there is no profile I need that in writing to forward it to the proper areas as it is illegal.
January 15, 2020, 8:25am by the requester
CIty of Prescott’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The Fire Department and Human Resources reports that Mr. Steinbrink retired in 2010. This puts his retirement 3 years before the Yarnell Fire. The City has no “professional records” for your request on Mr. Steinbrink.
Please note that the City has not informed you that Yarnell Fire Records have been destroyed.
Thank you.
January 15, 2020, 9:59am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
try again-
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
You used the Retention Schedule on a recent request on the Station one. I will have to go see which request it was but yes recently RETENTION SCHEDULE was used when it should not have been used-
Then I clarified that the Station in request would fall under being archival not retention schedule so I will have to go see if you updated that request but yeah to me I did ask for more clarification when you tied RETENTION SCHEDULE to a Yarnell Hill Fire matter
So if I remember right it was Request #20-14, #18-787 where I stated YARNELL in original request yet you came back RETENTION SCHEDULE-
So when there was just the link to the RETENTION SCHEDULE and nothing further after I commented and you closed both- I waited then filed a formal investigation of those requests sending the Ombudsman and State Archives a PDF of both requests.
So yes, understood Steinbrink has been out since 2010, that was why I opened new request tying to paper trail through the IT system emails but on this request it cannot be that you discarded GMHS data with Steibrinks name on it- it falls under archival.
So then those need more clarification because “as is” you closed the areas and I moved them to have formal investigation because never got anymore replies on my statement on it.
thank you
Best Regards.
January 15, 2020, 10:53am by the requester
JOY’S REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
long day- logged on late – all I could do for this day.
page 23 – Completed download –
0396 GMHS ALUMNI list of names redacted
0432 – need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0437- only Conrad’s email in BC and the TO; is whited out- please relook and see why the redactions
0441 : need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0447: need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0449 TO: “whited out” ( GMHS ALUMNI)
0451 need to be looked at- redacted names ??? and GMHS Leah’s number is shown
0461 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
0460 need to be looked at- redacted names ???
January 15, 2020, 11:03pm by the requester
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JOY’S REPLY
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
For the record and maybe should be forwarded to these folks:
From: Jacobsen,Mary To: Fousek Melissa Nunez Branden
Record 011- That article was not born by a {emphasis added] real sit down [more like “at stand” ;)) with the Nation’s Top Fire Fatality expert Dr Ted Putnam.
He is not a self-proposed investigator for the YHF; he is working on the Mann Gulch Fire.
We were in the parking lot awaiting to talk to an officer who was there for the YHF and while we waited for this man John Dougherty chit-chatted to Dr Ted Putnam and myself. Neither I or Dr Ted Putnam knew an article was to be born from that day. When it came out I asked Dr Ted Putnam- we were both surprised by it. Dr Ted Putnam has the creds and then some. [ and then some more ]
I am almost done looking at attachments you snail mailed to see which ones are missing then message you when done here.
January 17, 2020, 2:08pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
617- notify the people of redaction error
” AS IS” – the thumbnail memory stick that was snail mailed to me is incomplete.
033- Man, I have the documents to “prove” that is bogus and that is so ill-intent; thanks. Much needed. Wow, the slander of that woman in all the FOIAs and PRRs are increasingly overwhelming. What is her agenda in this. Funny, I trained to be a FF2 at Embry Riddle Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy March 2019 and my instructor was talking about Eric Shane Marsh and how Holly became his driver after the fatalities under Curtis Heaton’s instruction so from the start she has been there but amazing to see the slander and misinformation she is placing out- no wonder barriers have been placed out there- people like that- oh e.
Okay back to the missing attachments …
Please note some were not attachment in your area of memory stick but the actual email minus attachment.
It was a 2 day process
“time consuming” to narrow it down but here is what I still await from the city as attachments and what I did receive (I will mark areas I got them- the rest are missing):
001 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
004 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
006 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
008missing Attachments: Wildland Committee Meeting Flyer.pdf
009
015
016
018
020 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
024 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
028
030 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
031 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
033 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
040 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
043 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
044 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
045 FILE MADE BUT EMPTY FILE
048 FULLY ATTACHED AND COMPLETED.
050
051
052
053
054
056
058
068
078
082
085
093
0101
0107
0108
0112
0113
0115
0135
0157
0171
0172
0177
0179
0189
0196 (not redacted right- notify her)
0203
0205
0219
0223
0228
0229
0235
0244
0260
0266
0267
0275
0277
0288
0287
0331
0340
0342
0351
0363
0374
0376
0378
0382
0389
0399
0402
0405
0419
0423
0428
0429
0431
0438
0449
0452
0461
0463
0464
0471
0475
0499
0507
0519
0522
0526
0557
0566
0575
0581
0583
0584
0594
0595
0609
0611
0621
0622
0624
0627
0632
0635
0636
0650
0653
0657
0662
0663
0668 enclosed with no attachment just the email
0670 enclosed with no attachment just the email
0671 enclosed with no attachment just the email
0676 enclosed with no attachment just the email
0680 enclosed with no attachment just the email
—
was added for ???- 0665, 0666 ???
January 17, 2020, 5:06pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
page 22 – Completed download –
page 21 – Completed download –
0392 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0390 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0387 TO: – “whited out” ???
0380 TO: – “whited out” ???
page 20 – Completed download –
0364 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0361 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0359 TO: – “whited out” ???another GMHS ALUMNI missing list of names
0357 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
page 19- Completed download –
0343 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0342 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0340 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0338 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0336 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0335 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0329 another GMHS ALUMNI missing list of names need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0327 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
page 18- Completed download –
0305 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0301 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0290 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0287 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
page 17- Completed download –
0282 another GMHS ALUMNI missing list of names need to be looked at- redacted names ??
0281 TO: – “whited out” ???
0286 TO: – “whited out” ???
0277 TO: – “whited out” ???
0262 need to be looked at- redacted names ??
January 17, 2020, 5:09pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Requesting extension in look time at records past Feb 9th until I finish these and I am doing my best to keep it up.
One day if I ever came into funds – the FOIA and PRR folks should be given an added financial bonus for all they do and have done to help document the YHF for me.
Monday I take out for Fire Season 2020 Training- if you send invoice on other request try to log in throughout the week and keep working on this but I also have to study for my courses.
January 18, 2020, 9:03am by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
this was a rather large scope to have it reviewed in one month but I am showing I am actively reviewing so I hope you can extend the time.
January 18, 2020, 9:23am by the requester
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External Message Requester + Staff
note 057 was not in attachment area missing and needs to be
January 18, 2020, 12:02pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Adding 051 image to show I did ask for GMHS ALUMNI LIST and many emails show they have been redacted the names ???
…
number 20 also says you are still searching for GMHS list – so these redacted areas may show such list of names.
Page 1-16
Completed download –
0244 why is the name redacted out of email area
0237 why the redactions of names
0236 TO: “whited out”
0235 TO: “whited out”
0228 why is the name redacted out of email area
0224 why is the name redacted out of email area
0221 why is the name redacted out of email area
0219 To: “whited out” GMHS ALUMNI list
0216 why is the name redacted out of email area
0206 why is the name redacted out of email area
0202 why is the name redacted out of email area
0198 TO: “whited out”
0196 alert Deanna that her email was attempted to be redacted but was not-
0186 why is the name redacted out of email area
0182 why is the name redacted out of email area
…
0176 why is the name redacted out of email area
0174 why is the name redacted out of email area
0172 why is the name redacted out of email area
0163 why is the name redacted out of email area plus alert Amanda her number was not redacted.
0145 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS ALUMNI list
0144 why is the name redacted out of email area
0130 is my email – I sent it so please life the redactions
0113 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS ALUMNI list
0109 Nowicki private number exposed- let her know
0108 TO: “whited out”
096 why is the name redacted out of email area
091 why is the name redacted out of email area
088 is my email – I sent it so please life the redactions
084 why is the name redacted out of email area
080 why is the name redacted out of email area
074 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS ALUMNI list
073 missing photos – is my email – I sent it so please life the redactions
069 TO: “whited out”
066 why is the name redacted out of email area
065 Hall – heavily redacted … why is the name redacted out of email area
063 heavily redacted … why is the name redacted out of email area
056 is my email – I sent it so please life the redactions and on another #56- only one redaction- what was the reason
052 why the two names redacted- I can see the email but not the name
051 why is the name redacted out of email area
050 why is TO blocked out? Another GMHS Alumni List
046 why is the name redacted out of email area
045 why is the name redacted out of email area
043 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS Alumni List
041 why is the name redacted out of email area
040 why the two names redacted- I can see the email but not the name
034 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS ALUMNI list
033 DUPLICATE to 0177 why is the name redacted out of email area on another #33 not hat one that is duplicate
026 why is the name redacted out of email area
024 why is the name redacted out of email area
023 why is the name redacted out of email area- it is my email?
021 why is the name redacted out of email area
020 why is the name redacted out of email area
014 KEEP IN MIND some of these numbers like this one has more than one and this one has 2 needing -why is the name redacted out of email area
013 why is the name redacted out of email area
008 why is the name redacted out of email area
006 why is the name redacted out of email area
005 why is the name redacted out of email area
003 why is the name redacted out of email area GMHS ALUMNI list
002 why is the name redacted out of email area
001 why is the name redacted out of email area
January 18, 2020, 1:37pm by the requester
Joy’s Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
EMAILS 634 FILE 100% COMPLETED
January 18, 2020, 1:42pm by the requester
————
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I have to pack. I will re look at this file hopefully once situated at the Academy. I still have Tom and Troy’s files to do yet that was why I asked for extension- but as soon as I can I will work on it. I have school and training and conferences pretty tight in schedule until May 2019 then Fire Season 2020 but I am showing best activity I can here.
January 18, 2020, 2:10pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I totally agree there was just too many topics for one request.
To go back and fix the redactions will be time consuming-
I have family always home so you can send the attachments to me snail mail in hopes you waive any fee to mail them being it was not my err-
January 18, 2020, 2:13pm by the requester
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City of Prescott Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Ms. Collura,
We are not going to set this request for destruction until possibly next year. I have an inquiry into the Records department regarding the retention. I will respond to your other inquiries once I can get through all your entries.
Thanks.
January 21, 2020, 9:23am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Joy’s Reply:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
resource wild land fire documents that had the following name (any type of document): Duane Allen Steinbrink / Duane Steinbrink / Duane A Steinbrink, Troy Duane Steinbrink, Darrell Eugene Willis / Darrell E Willis / Darrell Willis
— define to include MASTER RECORDS / RED CARDS for those men in the electronic return of their professional file I will like to receive. Thank you.
January 25, 2020, 9:38pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I completely understand this request to review and get the additional information will be tedious yet I will want for all itemized areas the records- it is not meant to be in question form but to alert you all areas that are open to needing additional records for they are missing.
January 25, 2020, 9:41pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I will be away from my email area pretty much for the month of February 2020 and March 2020 and at the Academies.
Any immediate inquiries needing to be answered leave a message at 480 559 1971 and I will get back to you after school.
I may have to email you from another’s email for those two months so please provide an external email because I will not log on to NEXT REQUEST except on my own PC.
January 25, 2020, 9:44pm by the requester
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External Message Hide Requester + Staff
It is 54 days from my last time communicating to you on this request
Or 1 month, 23 days excluding the end date.
It is 58 days from the the last time you communicated, but not including the end date.
Or 1 month, 27 days excluding the end date.
What is the ETA on #18-541 which had to do with a lot of attachments missing and so many emails needing to be unredacted and so much more …etc.
I want to know where this request sits currently.
Best Regards,
Joy A Collura
March 19, 2020, 3:31pm by the requester
————————-
THERE YOU HAVE REQUEST NUMBER ONE
Done.
see how long it takes and HOW MUCH room it takes
but it seems I am most asked to share what I have and when I do they want me to “filter” it- nah…you do the filtering…
so wtktt, with all that stated-
It is 591 days from the start of this request, but not including the end date.
Or 1 year, 7 months, 13 days excluding the end date.
Or 19 months, 13 days excluding the end date.
When is it too long to wait to file a complaint because I really want almost 2 year old requests done. Ya know.
All this openness should help Cole feel he was not targeted and just part of the process even though he claims he was no there that day.
City of Prescott Reply
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Staff is still working on this one.
Thanks.
March 19, 2020, 4:31pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
https://www.powelltribune.com/stories/harrison-ford-kanye-west-to-headline-cody-softball-game,24526
• Brendan McDonough, the lone survivor among the Granite Mountain Hotshots from the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona; the other 19 members of McDonough’s team died in the wildfire, a story later told in the movie, “Only the Brave.” Brown called McDonough “a real life hero.”
what is going on? What and why is he a REAL LIFE HERO- I watched that day- what the…
Our world is dummified and where did it begin…did the SAIT SAIR create this platform…who did this? Horseshit.
Wow-talk about convoluted and how ignorant people are of the facts in this case. Donut the sad sack now a hero. But you can understand the way this murder was played out. He had nothing to do with it as far as I can see and the real life hero here was Brian Frisby for saving his life.
Joy and i walked into the Prescott Fire Station on the west edge of town with her photos of that day showing all we witness–of high significance were photos of the very spot they died taken early that morning before any burn over had happened. The obvious density of the brush shows it to be almost impassible. I was not kidding when I said as we forged our way through we were often on our bellies like in boot camp to get through it.. Sometimes we were backtracking as you would in a maze to find a place to crawl through. Consider that we had left at about 3:30 am and did not get to where Marsh was heading up until what–9:30. That is about six hours to cover only about three miles of hiking.
Hey at that time Joy and I had been on long mountain hikes often ten to twenty miles about every other day on our explorations. I think three days before this we had hiked from the DMV in Prescott almost to Willhoit–that approximated about 40-50 miles when her husband picked us up at about 2am in the morning. So we were well adjusted to hiking long distance and rough terrain since our hikes were generally mountain hikes without trails.
Now despite those photos having everything from the bulldozer, that spot they died, their vehicles, even photos of the men going up–when I said they look like they are on a death march–and at least several hundred photos the people there said we don’t need those photos, we already know what happened. On second thoughts the caught us as we were leaving the parking lot and said we decided we would like to have the photos.
Now these people really resented that we had photos I think. They had their way this was going to be portrayed and any evidence to the contrary that would show how foolish it was to get into that trap was really not welcome. This was going to be an accident, if if Willis said anything it was God had other plans for them. Shit and leave those kids without a Dad, wives without their support and parent without their son–where is his thinking?–is his God to be made out as such an asshole?
It is entirely due to ignorance that Donut could be made out to be a hero–he has lied and withheld information about the deaths, he barely make it out alive and would not have except for the foresight of Brian Frisby to save his ignorant ass, he knew nothing about safety and said screw the safety thing–it was something “hillbilly” and had nothing to do with on the job wild land fire fighting.
Perhaps one day the slate will be cleaned and the facts presented as they really are and not the fiction that caused people to believe that jack ass is any kind of hero.
I had posted that the scientists that created this corona virus and let it loose on the world all should be brought up on a world court just as the Nazis were during the Nuremberg trials. You have the WHO people giving them praise for their work and how the Chinese have done such good work containing this virus yet now one WHO person has said you bastards had killed thousands and sickened millions and in general put the world in fear and mayhem. I would want them exposed to their own virus and if that did not kill them then shoot the sorry fuckers.
It just too much reminds us of the accountability issues of the GMHS murders. Instead of seeing what are the facts we allow these ass holes to dance around the truth and even present themselves with awards and make a hero out of a jack ass that truly could never represent the wild land fire fighting community.
I am not a wild land fire fighter but I saw the situation that day first hand. I know the lies being perpetrated and how this whole matter has stretched the truth to beyond fiction until it is a delusion. Political bullshit that stinks to high heaven.
Here is a John Lennon well said in ways–
As soon as you’re born they make you feel small
By giving you no time instead of it all
Till the pain is so big you feel nothing at all
They hurt you at home and they hit you at school
The hate you if you are clever and they despise a fool
Till you’re so fucking crazy you can’t follow their rules
When they’ve tortured you and scared you for twenty odd years
Then they expect you to pick a career
When you can’t really function you’re so full of fear
Keep you doped with religion and sex and TV
And you think you’re so clever and classless and free
But you’re still fucking peasants as far as I can see
There is room at the top they are telling you still
But first you must learn how to smile as you kill
If you like to be like the folks on the hill.
You can see that Lennon was a thinker and out of the box. I could not help but think of the Bush and Colin Powell bunch with their many smiles as they manipulated us into war.
It does address how easily we become buffoons to the system–you see these talks about Donut and his greatness, and the Willis and Bradley talks and you begin to realize how true that the masses are easily deluded by these “authoritative” voices that if they only knew are designs to cover the truth. These people are not truthful and that is a shame to the system and an insult to intelligent people.
Where are your good Congressmen that must read this site written by people of the highest integrity and knowledge of wild land fire fighting. That is backed by years of experience, some with beyond 30 years experience but most with at least 10 to generally 20 years of proven experience. Yet these ass hole Congress people are happy to represent the Corporate lobbyists that are provided millions to feather the nests of these Congress people. They dare not challenge that nest feathering and occasionally they find these Congresspeople to have stuffed thousands in their freezers. I think the ones found out are ones that someone wanted to get rid of.
If you go to a Congress person and say hey I donated $100 to your campaign–they will laugh at you. They can’t buy a high class dinner for that money. But if you go to a Congress man and say I donated a few hundred thousand or if a President a few million to your campaign–that same Congress person will stand at attention and alert to your Corporate desires.
So who the hell do you believe these people actually represent? Tell me I am the fool to believe that they represent not the people but the Corporations that put them in office–why you will not see them address retardant issues or issues involving the death of 19 wild land fire fighters. If they did, this ordeal at Yarnell would be on the their investigation list and in the media big time. Mr. Donut would be questioned, Willis, and all the people involved since it bears greatly upon the safety of wild land fire fighters and the question of whether retardant killed about 200 of the 645 residents of Yarnell in only 7 years.
Be aware, be safe, be prepared. A good citizen will protest and goad these bought and owned Congresspeople despite knowing there is little they will do to remedy what they are afraid to do.
This is one rainy day–all day a drenching and soaking rain–good for the plants and will clear most of the chemicals out of the air and into the soil. I am not sure how much of the particulate Al2O3 is safe for plants or especially the Barium rat poison compound will be healthy, and although Strontium is a necessary chemical to the body it is in only very small amounts. What an overdose will do is up in the air.
Anyway I will have plenty of apricots, peaches, apples and perhaps cherries except the Bull Geronimo killed on cherry tree and they need cross polinization. from the trees I planted and I know they will be safer than the Mexican, China varieties and American that are sprayed with
ungodly chemicals very difficult to wash off.
In this unstable world of anything can happen in a sudden and unexpected way I look back to my child hood–things seemed to be much more simpler then. In those days when you were living in saw mill canyon you would see maybe one or two vehicles come in within a month. The past few months when I was camped in there there were that many every day including the noisy quads.
Because we were living in a canvas army tent floored with wood planks and Dad was doing his prospect mining, we of course had no running water. He had covered a cement well left by the CCC camps during the Depression years but it had wiggle tails–mosquito larvae so we had dug out a seep hole in the creek and would use water for drinking and cooking out of that. That water was crystal clear and had a good taste.
Bathing was only once a week where water was heated in a big iron kettle then transferred to a tin tub. The girls always got the first baths and my brother and I followed, me last–I was usually the grimiest. Of course we could sponge bath daily and wash our hands and face but I do think one reason I like a shower daily is because of those days when bathing was so scarce–and why I protested when in hospice at Prescott when they only allowed a shower every other day. VA hospitals are still military and even though you are no longer in active service they expect you to take orders as if you don’t have a mind of your own.
I think being brought up that way was a good thing for me. My sisters both detested my Dad because of his prospecting ways–my Mom the same though I would have never known it until she said she did not want to be buried anywhere near my Dad. Well she could not have been anyway–he is in his resting spot in the Prescott Military Cemetery where Joy and I found and visited his grave. He old hiking parner, Snakeman is very close by only his ashes are in a small box to which we also paid our respects. I am sure their ghosts along with the ghosts of the GMHS crew haunt the cronies of Prescott for their deceitful ways.
I do think this world will have more rude awakenings–the Patriot Act has twisted the control barbed wire on their necks and Fema will continue to operate in glorious military and police lock downs–I can imagine they will be quite active in this virus scare.
My son says Dad, I will try come to see you tomorrow. He says it may be a long time before he sees me again. He knows as an RN and predicted this scenario from the beginning. He knows also that if I get that virus he likely will not see me again unless it is in a coffin.
But I speak not only for myself but many of the champions that post on this site since many of them are in my age bracket and some with heavy health issues. Yet I am ashamed of the WHO people that represent our government and the world governments that have not condemned the scientists for this outbreak. Their actions speak as if they are entertained by it all.
To my way of thinking, it is obvious that the Corporate Giants will profit greatly by this–especially big Pharma. But it also seems to be a test to see how the public will react and we see that. Plenty of fear and demand to the government for protection, yet few look at the basic reality of what is going on here. Just like the Patriot Act for 911, it would be surprising if there are not plenty new laws passed to limit freedoms –as if there are not enough limits already.
I do not look at these scientists as heroes no more than the Bush clan. I see them for what they are through a clear lens–if the devil ever had followers for the devastation and killing of humanity in the thousands and millions he must be giving out awards to these people much like the honchos at Yarnell were giving awards to the powers that made the killing of the GMHS crew possible.
Still I think Mao, Hitler, Stalin and the like must have the highest awards for killing the innocents, something their followers are doing well to prove themselves as worthy compatriots. But the sad part is that people actually follow these ideals–something imported to us by project paperclip that brought hundreds of their scientists to head up our Mind Control Projects and other Military projects that make possible the control and even annihilation of great amounts of humanity.
Sleep well, your National Guard is on duty and your best scientists are inventing more of these deadly viruses.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on March 18, 2020 at 10:15 am
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.powelltribune.com/stories/harrison-ford-kanye-west-to-headline-cody-softball-game,24526
There is a ‘bad link’ in that article about that charity softball game.
It was actually trying to go to the official ‘EventBrite’ page for game, but is messed up.
Below is the actual ( working ) link to that same ‘EventBrite’ page.
NOTE: The article above does mention that Brendan McDonough is supposed to be one of the ‘celebrities’ participating in the softball game, but the official EventBrite site below does not. It has photos of 24 celebrities participating… but McDonough is not one of them.
EventBrite
“Celebrities Against Cancer” Charity Softball Game
Ryan Brown, Sports Nuts of the Round Table
Saturday, June 13, 2020 from 12:00 PM to 9:30 PM (MDT)
Cody, WY
https://www.eventbrite.com/e/celebrities-against-cancer-charity-softball-game-tickets-89870915327
Reply to Woodsman post on March 16, 2020 at 3:27 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Explain to me how you believe it’s impossible McDonough
>> put fire on the ground from his lookout spot.
* THE SHORT STORY…
Because there are photographs that prove there was no ‘smoke’ or ‘fire’ anywhere in those areas all the way up to at least 3:55 PM, after McDonough was already on his way out of the Sesame street area with the BR and GM vehicle ‘convoy’.
* THE LONG STORY…
Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby accidentally ‘stumbled’ across Brendan McDopnough at that ‘T’ section in the two-track road at almost exactly 3:40 PM.
Five minutes later, at 3:45 PM, the two of them ‘arrived’ back at the top of the Sesame clearing where the GM Supt. and Chase trucks were parked.
Frisby leaves Brendan there and heads south on Sesame street to fetch BR Captain Trueheart Brown and bring him back up to where Brendan and the GM command vehicles are.
At 3:54 PM, Frisby and Brown arrive back where the GM vehicles were parked. Brendan drives the GM Supt. truck, Brown drives the GM chase truck, and Frisby drive the BR UTV. They all head back south to where the GM and BR Crew Carriers are staged.
Brown gets out of the GM Chase truck and another BR crew member ( still unidentified ) gets in it.
Brown gets back in the BR Polaris Ranger UTV with Frisby.
Frisby and Brown head east on the cutover trail in the BR UTV and ALL of the other BR and GM vehicles ‘convoy’ south, out of the Sesame area, through Glen Ilah, and then north to Shrine Road on out to the Youth Camp area.
Here are the TIMES on all of that… including the TIME when Christopher Mackenzie took his final photo up at the ‘rest spot’ ( 3:55 PM ) and even though the GM and BR ‘convoy’ was already headed out of the Sesame area… there was NO evidence of any ‘fire’ or ‘smoke’ anywhere in the Sesame area.
NOTE: The ‘Cutover Trail’ is simply the name that has been used to describe that dozer push from the Sesame street area over to the Shrine Youth Camp.
———————————————————————————————————
1527:00 – Frisby and Brown are stationary (according to GPS) at the WEST end of the ‘Cutover Trail’.
1528:00 – Eric Marsh requests second face-to-face with Brian Frisby.
1528:30 – Trueheart Brown gets his ‘gear’ out of the Ranger and starts hiking EAST on Cutover Trail.
1529:00 – Brian Frisby departs in the BR Polaris Ranger to meet up with Marsh.
1529:51 – Byron Kimball begins his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
(Byron Kimball): “As per ( US National ) Weather Service ( slight pause )… within the half-hour (pause) EAST winds. (pause) Possibility of as high as 50 miles an hour or likely 25 (pause) definitely 25, 35 gusting 40 (pause) east / northeast within the half hour. Um… the outpoint to outflow line also ( will be ) located…”
( Video capturing radio traffic ends at 1530:14 and the rest of the weather report is cut off )
1530:00 – Brown ‘pauses’ on his hike EAST and ‘stands still’ to listen to Kimball’s weather report.
1531.00 – Byron Kimball has now finished his weather report over the TAC 1 radio channel.
1531:30 – Brown resumes his hike EAST after finishing listening to Kimball’s weather report.
1532:00 – Frisby is still heading towards Marsh and Brown is still hiking EAST on ‘Cutover Trail’.
1533:00 – Just after Kimball’s ‘weather advisory’, Jesse Steed calls Brendan McDonough on the GM crew channel to pass the information on to Brendan ( who did not hear it in real time )… and they then decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to ‘re-evaluate where he is’.
1534:00 – Brendan told ADOSH that winds started ‘picking up’ right after the ‘weather advisory’.
1535:00 – Brendan and Steed decide ( together ) that Brendan needs to leave lookout spot.
1536:00 – Brendan starts his 3 minute walk down from his lookout spot.
1539:00 – Brendan finishes his walk down and emerges at ‘T’ section.
1539:30 – Brendan considers deployment options and then gets ready to call Frisby.
1540:00 – Frisby accidentally comes across Brendan at the ‘T’ section.
1540:30 – Frisby talks with Marsh over intra-crew using radio Brendan handed him.
1540:45 – Frisby calls Brown and tells him to get drivers to move vehicles.
1541:00 – Brown does his ‘about face’ on Cutover trail in response to Frisby’s request.
1542:00 – Frisby is now heading EAST with Brendan in the UTV Ranger.
1545:00 – Frisby and Brendan arrive where the GM Supt. and Chase trucks are parked.
Brendan starts both vehicles, gets in the Supt. truck and turns on the air-conditioner.
Brendan also turns up the volume on the onboard radio so he can hear any radio traffic on the GM Crew-Net frequency.
1547:00 – Frisby is now concerned about how fast the fire is approaching from the NW and he decides he better take off in the UTV Ranger and head south to the ‘Cutover Trail’ to ‘pick up’ Trueheart Brown and get him quickly back to that location… so they can then drive both the GM Supt and Chase trucks out of there ASAP.
1547:13 – The moment Frisby LEFT the spot where the GM vehicles were parked ( in the UTV Ranger ) and started his ‘run’ to the south to pick up Trueheart Brown.
Brendan is now ‘alone’ there with the GM Supt and Chase trucks waiting for Frisby to return… and he gets out of the GM Supt truck ( but is still standing right next to it ) and takes four pictures of the approaching fireline with his Samsung SCH-1535 camera…
1549:43 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154943.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
1549:44 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154944.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
1549:45 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154946.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
1549:46 – Brendan’s photo 20130630_154947.JPG – Shows fireline approaching GM vehicles.
1550:30 – The moment when Frisby ‘picks up’ Brown in the UTV at the WEST end of the Cutover Trail, and the two of them now start driving back NORTH to where Brendan is waiting by the GM Supt and Chase trucks.
1553:47 – The exact moment Frisby and Brown arrived back where the GM Supt and Chase Trucks were parked at the top of the Sesame Clearing area.
1554:00 – Frisby and Brown have ALREADY arrived back where Brendan was waiting, ( 13 seconds before 1554 ) and Brown is now getting into the GM Chase truck as they ( Frisby, Brown and Brendan ) get ready to drive the GM Supt and Chase trucks back down to where the GM Crew Carriers were parked.
** 91 seconds later…
1555:31 – Christopher Mackenzie takes his last known smartphone photo ( IMG_2738.JPG ) up at the ‘final rest spot’, near the anchor point, where all the GM Hotshots had been ‘resting’ in the safe black. It clearly shows there is still NO smoke or flame, at that time, anywhere in the Sesame Street or Shrine Youth Camp area(s).
Video Title: MacKenzie-IMG-2738-035531PM
Date Created: August 12, 2019
Video Description:
Crossfade from Christopher MacKenzie’s iPhone 4S image IMG-2738, taken at 3:55:31 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013 at the Yarnell Hill Fire, into the equivalent Google Earth terrain view. The YELLOW line represents the right-side edge of the image.
Video Link: https://youtu.be/KCB1mcS22Ys
** 29 seconds later…
1556:00 – BR and GM Vehicle convoy leaves the Sesame clearing area heading south towards Glen Ilah.
** 6 minutes later ( while Brendan is still driving the GM Supt. truck )…
1602:00 – Mid-point of the journey of the ‘convoy’ from the Sesame Clearing area over to the Youth Camp.
** Brendan now takes his 3 photographs from the driver’s seat of the GM Supt. truck, just north of the Ranch House Restaurant and looking out to the WEST.
1602:04 – Brendan’s Hwy 89 photo 20130630_160204 – GPS: 34.215760, -112.754336
1602:06 – Brendan’s Hwy 89 photo 20130630_160206 – GPS: 34.216033, -112.753974
1602:08 – Brendan’s Hwy 89 photo 20130630_160208 – GPS: 34.216151, -112.753797
** 6 minutes later… ( while Brendan is still driving the GM Supt. truck )…
1608:00 – BR and GM Vehicle convoy arrives at the Youth Camp on Shrine Road.
——————————————————————————————————–
>> Woodsman also wrote…
>>
>> All of this may be included in the unit logs of Frisby and Brown
>> and encompasses the redacted part. What was that part about fire
>> around him on that road that shows up in McDonough ‘s account?
There were never any ’embers blowing across the road’ as he and Frisby actually drove east from the old grader area to the top of the Sesame clearing area where the GM command vehicles were parked.
At no time, in any of Brendan’s original interviews, die he mention any ’embers flying across the road’ as he and Frisby evacuated from the old-grader area.
That blurb about there being ’embers across the road’ as Brendan evacuated with Frisby was just some bullshit that Brendan has started slinging lately as he continues to just try and make his own ‘stories’ match the fiction that was depicted in the movie.
The movie made it look like Brendan and Frisby almost got roasted alive WHILE they were driving east from the old grader location.
That is ( of course ) total horseshit.
And Woodsman…I was shared multiple times no fire was laid down at the old grader at all yet where the dozer was and the dozer was damaged which was on the Sesame to Shrine area and I have more pics to come out on the dozer when I am back to my foia storage area. I have the documents that Paul Morin’s dozer was damaged and the mechanic notes and I have an officer who was federally gagged and they took his cell and never gave it back which had pictures and there is more but it would identify the officer so yeah not the old grader but Donut was seen by the dozer and I would like to know under a lie detector test if donut operated that dozer and if what has been said about him lighting up is rumor or facts but the one guy who told me is too kind and simple to place the words out even if it’s anonymous. Donut needs to explain his time on the Sesame to Shrine areas for me. Why did his buddy see him in Glen ilah at the time he did. Explanations needed.
WTKTT & Joy,
Thank you both for the information. It gives me a lot to do some more research on. I appreciate It!
Why did McDonough feel the need to hire an attorney?
Woodsman
Joy, do you think a burn had caused the dozer damage? My MOS was Bulldozer Operator in the Engineer Corps. because I owned and operated a D-8 on my agate claims before being drafted. Donut would likely not even know how to start that Bulldozer much less operate it. However, he would be a good candidate to help do burns in that area and scorch the dozer.
That is an interesting theory about Donut–but he is gutless to tell the truth so until the Congress or someone puts him on the stand to get the truth out of him we are in limbo. He would know on a Congressional hearing if he lied that he would be ferried back to his prison cell, those Congress people get pissed if you lie to them.
Who knows some independent thinking Congressperson might just get this going. But don’t think your Karnen Fenn is interested–she is too involved with the Prescott Crowd and also she had interest in that parking lot situation where her brother made good money paving a spot for people to hike. You have the cronies of Prescott to deal with–kind of like walking though a swarm of rattle snakes.
Oddly I have done that more than once. One I saved from the bottom of a shaft in a lead silver mine I had near Chloride, NM. I brought that withered snake up that was barely alive–likely had been trapped there for months. I gave that snake a shot of good whiskey hoping to revive him but the result was fatal instead. I have a heart for snakes sometimes–but they don’t change their ways.
Let me begin with my sincerest condolences to a beautiful soul Cindy A Sciacca ( February 21, 2020 ) ( way too young – yet you will always be remembered in my heart and mind and soul for your kind words / your wit and ways in 2018 and 2019 and surely missed this year- I felt your presence though. In your honor Cindy and for your love for the beaches – please donate to cedo , org
ARIZONA WILDFIRE AND INCIDENT MANAGEMENT ACADEMY’s main man and as well was Safety Officer on the June 30th, 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire (YHFire) – Tony Sciacca – he faced a hard loss of a fine woman this 2020 so when I skimmed the earlier comments of RTS, I had to make the time to share how life-changing my 2020 week was at this academy. It was CIndy who was the beacon of light as I met so many more folks this year and one of the men who was near Tony on June 30, 2013 had a heart attack this past week and was in ICU/PCU and to see him and his family; melted me, During my visits to see him I met so many from the YHFire but the one who lit up the room when I went into it was the one and only signature known on the sign off for GMHS to become a Crew and I listened to him and really this was a blessing as I heard many conversations.
It was difficult because at the same time recently Woodsman brought up Donut and the dozer on IM- I too have heard someone say that in recent times but as well three this past week as well so I pondered where they got their data because if Donut actually lit that fire along with known others because I have spoken to other “first hand” lighters than why Donut would you carry on tied in knowing Andy Tobin’s kid and other high level political folks. ( w w w .andytobin. c o m/ ) and why are your friends from before the fire reaching me saying you have turned into a robot. I know you are a father to a young one and all for the focus go to the children yet that means the other 19 children too not just your own – You have a duty still to do, sir.
Each day at the Academy – we began heading to the “briefing” – incident objectives ( Ed Paul / Dirch Foreman ), Weather ( Valerie Meyers ), “Talking Points” – Duty * Respect * Integrity, Our classes and Lunch Breaks, Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center, Medical Plan, Human Resource, Vendors, Tribute Dinner and yes some who sit up there to speak were on the YHFire and on the side lines-
I never ran into A.M. yet people told me she was very near me and it is okay- as I laughed and joked with RTS’s alleged quisling – Dean Whitney – saying I should get RTS one of my “hurt feelings” report forms but in that time I so bad was hoping for a bridge moment. I know each and everyone of us have a role – surely Dean will head to Silver CIty NM in his Superintendent role and realize the “importance” of his role for Fire Season 2020.
“They don’t know it, but the wrath of the Lord is about to descend upon them.”
― Larry McMurtry, Lonesome Dove
Than I got alerted did you know Dean and A.M. are close in friendship – be careful what you say to him. I will not speak differently just because someone dislikes me or knows someone who does- I have to be ME – I was genuine and happy with Dean and Jason’s visit. I truly pray people do not make another choose a side and allow God to work in their hearts. We should never have to make sides or pick sides but stay focused to help the ones who held the information THIS LONG to guide and coach them it is going to be okay-
Side note: Hashtag # CAPLES RX BURN – Jay Kurth’s backyard needs a FULL investigation – reach me!
your area will not be okay in 2020. That is a sole focus of mine now that school was cancelled. Accountability is a for sure thing I will make public.
My opinions on the recent Coronavirus – https://youtu.be/y2QrPZNiBVo
check it out – the way the hood is run lately.
COURSE: M-410 Facilitative Instructor (Workbook 2013) – Certified at Level 1
( h t t p s://www.nwcg.g o v/publications/training-courses/m-410/pre-course-work )
UNIT: Joy A Collura’s Week Recap – “Ice Breaker” , 5 minute Presentation, 15 minute Group Presentation and my Final Exam Presentation
LEAD INSTRUCTOR: JAKE GUADIANA (wtktt will recognize that name)
CO-INSTRUCTORS: BRIAN LAUBER (wtktt will recognize that name), MAYRA MORENO, MARCOS ESCOBEDO, KODI LESLIE
TIME: Sunday March 8th, 2020 thru Thursday March 12th, 2020
TRAINING AIDS: 5 minute presentation was a PowerPoint and Flip board on Bridging Old Ways To New Ways using “melting snowflake” and old USDA “hurt feelings” report form as my visual aids. Final exam, used items I widdled and my venomous snake taxidermy and items Sonny and I made desert glass into arrowheads and hearts and spears using a nail drilled into a piece of wood.
OBJECTIVES: During that week, the students and cadre will:
1. Learn my resistance to being present there and my reasons
2. Explain the importance of “old school” ways as well as the “new” ways.
3. The importance of every person in that room.
4. How to catch, strangle and kill a venomous snake and eat one and make a hat band or belt buckle or Easter Eggs covered in snake skins
5. Identify the different behaviors of the different kinds of rattlesnakes
——————————-
When Terry H. was first to go up and speak (I blanked his topic) then Tedd H.,( Spotify) Juan Carlos K (Blue Ridge) (cup of joe), Sami S.,(fancy coffee) Clint K. (I remember how Clint brought emotions out in us), Cody P. (antlers), then I was number eight, (Melting Snowflakes- Bridging the Old with the New Ways) Daniel R. (he was in my NM FI-210 too)(Baby Boomer Generations), Delton W.(Awesome Candied Pecans that I got permission to put his recipe on the blog :)), Bryan C (Carp (Prescott)( Make your own sanitizer during the Coronavirus), Nehko E.,(How to speak Apache- “How are you?” – “Dago’ teh) Robert R.,( pencils) Richard B.(pulled pork recipe), Christopher W. (Prescott)(Cool Club sunglasses origami), Keith L.(Plastic kills), Joe W. (APS) (Sleep Deprivation), Nate H.(Construction), Robert O.(Safety Hydraulic Jack), Shane P.,(Apache Trout Restoration Act) Lee L.,(Haircuts)
I was number 16 on the Final Exam of 21 students. I walked out past the 12 or 13 minute mark because I realized I just spoke aloud my realities and it was not to be in the presentation. Actually my opening about my father building the twin towers and the Chase bank in downtown Phoenix was not part of it either. Like my dad wanted me to mention him or something (RIP) –
Bryan C ( carp) did his final on being a football coach and he was outstanding. Robert R. taught us how to fix our vehicle AC ourselves, Christopher Wescott all week had a witty way to him and on his exam I found him to be polished and easy transition to serious role and I was all about listening to him but blanking what I heard as I type this- ??? Joe W. did his on Black and Blue Lines and the red flags to look for (safety), Robert O. did his from a PhD angle and spoke on mental health (specifically in the Wildland Indsutry), I adore Lenwood yet I am blanking what his topic was, as well as the rest … I must have been shifting focus realizing I was half way there and I so bad did not want to stand and present but my time came after lunch so anyone knows how that goes (YAWN) – I do remember Sami S’s because she did it on a cool DO IT YOURSELF in camp or wherever SCREEN PRINT CUSTOM SHIRTS….and I know Sam’s because I missed it as I was being evaluated and his was on Sauerkraut and Cody’s was on Snowboards but so was Tedd and Nate’s too and Nehko’s was on gardening and Delton did his on Macaroon vs macaron with SAMPLES and Blue Ridge Juan Carlos did his on Gold Mining in BC/Alaska and Clint did his on dry wall but I am blanking Shane’s and Terry’s but I know Richard’s was detailing your vehicle.
As I mentioned, when I walked out the last minute of my presentation, I went around the corner in a tiny quiet side area and wept – it just all caught up to me – the many losses here, my father in law and my health news and decisions I am going have to make in the long run…Sami S was amazingly “present” as Mayra and Jake thought I went to the bathroom; Sami knew where I would be, It meant alot.
As Jake took me into a separate room to do my Final Exam Evaluation he stated I tend to down play or point out my faults.
and here I thought because a few others pointed out it was their first Power Point putting one together that I too can state that it was mine so that became me pointing out my fault.
The other fault I had is I did focus to one side of the room but that was because the other side during the ice breakers stated they were afraid of snakes so I guess I did not want to connect there yet- I did let them know my intent for my presentation yet when it came time I knew I was failing on that area so that really is how that happened.
Jake stated as he looked around the room I opened with a “hook” good story. He said I “dressed to impress”, good humor, “Budweiser joke where my dad said Bud makes you w e iser …good props – the snakes and skins – Good memory because I included Lenwood in my presentation. Good use of Power Point. Great story! Good voice projection. SME and very knowledgeable – s nakes – Good job!
the evaluations were done by 20 students and the rest of the Cadre-
I will do a post on what they said and my power point. I passed the course. Each day was a challenge for me. I just was “burned out”
Yet, RTS, is right – it was my best year to date. I had seven people come to me at different times and state they were told to stay away from me and they watched me over the past few years and were curious to talk to me. They said they want to stand on my side. There is no sides in this.
Dean Whitney should be at ease to reach me and know whatever he speaks to me about is with me unless he wanted someone else to know he can tell them- I share with purity to him and Jason and always will- no person will state to me I have to pick a side. What happened historically in Dean’s life in the eighties and nineties (quite colorful) and where he is in the now- that is HIS life and path and I will make a correction in a future post if when I do a full look into it is deserved- it did feel deserved this past week yet I am not the one who he gave a declaration to then changed it then moved from Globe to a desk job to now he can play Sup. in Silver City…
One thing Dean can walk away is this about me:
h t t p s://images.app.goo.gl/DuKqWErfo9PhsXQM8
one of a kind is Sonny and me 🙂
Yes, my classes / conferences were cancelled but that means MORE TIME to focus on hashtag # CAPLES RX BURN and getting it all out- that makes me happy since so many lives were disrupted on that one.
In the Academy closing, I have found M.C. to be agitated the past few years so I wanted to clear up WHY I pulled records on him and it was because someone he is close to for decades reached me and told me where and what to pull and M.C. stated that’s no friend of his – but I think it is a true friend because he has watched M.C. for years and for him to reach me meant something to me. We need the moments of truths to surface even if it takes friends of a long time reaching me. It is the right thing to do, sir. He always spoke with the highest regards to you. It was the file that was removed from a certain area that was omitted and I am thankful because Sonny and I are the “outsiders” that were on the Weavers that could have perished so it is nice someone out there took that courage to do just that. It was never personal to M.C. – I mean, I have probably pulled the MOST records historically speaking…just to piece the puzzle and I have that right to know why I almost perished that day especially when 19 did and it just seem okay for people to be okay with saying what about the people alive- nah I am with Deborah Pfingston on this – you need to SPEAK UP!
I mean, Sonny said it late afternoon June 30, 2013 on the Weaver tops two track ridge “We got to get the hell outta here .. those men have radios and aircrafts” (as a helicopter with what appeared to be body bags but was water buckets passed over us.)
After RTS’s Feb 7th court case (8:43am-12:06pm) I went directly to Arizona State Archives (2:12-3:42pm) and their research shows this:
Friday, February 14, 2020 4:07 PM
Joy-
I asked colleagues to help me find the AFUE study that includes the analysis of the Yarnell fire in 2013. We do not have it, but found related material that you may want for your file. I’m sending links to all of it, although I assume that you have already seen much of it.
On March 11, 2019, the USDA published a statement that indicates that a final report and plan will be released once additional data has been gathered and analyzed. Here is the statement: h tt p s://w w w.fs.usda.g o v/sites/default/files/2019-07/2019_03_15_19_bp_afue_2019_update_final_web.p d f
On April 8, 2019, Fire Aviation published an online article: h t t ps://fireaviation.c o m/2019/04/08/after-seven-years-of-the-air-tanker-effectiveness-study-what-have-we-learned/
Here is the main website for the AFUE: ht tp s://www.fs.usda.g o v/managing-land/fire/aviation/afue
Here is a Senate committee report from September 2019. In it, the Appropriations committee notes that the AFUE study had not been finalized as of that time: h tt p s://www.congress.g o v/116/crpt/srpt123/CRPT-116srpt123.pdf
One of my colleagues remembered a conversation she had with Fernanda Santos, the author of The Fire Line: The Story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots. (The State Library hosts an author series several times a year, and she was a recent speaker. Her book is available on Reading Arizona, where you can register and read it for free. Here is a link: h tt p s://azlibrary.g o v/reading-arizona-ebooks.) My colleague remembers Professor Santos saying that the most valuable resource in her research was the radio transmissions. We don’t know how she accessed them, but she is a professor at ASU, so her contact information is online. Here it is: [email protected], 602-496-9187.
There is a collection of photos on our website here: h tt p s://azmemory.azlibrary.g o v/digital/collection/pgmh. Click Browse and Search This Collection to look through them.
Here is the Serious Accident Investigation Report on the Yarnell Hill Fire prepared by the Arizona Division of Forestry: ht t p s://azmemory.azlibrary.g o v/digital/collection/statepubs/id/35791
—————-
then drove to ShowLow Bandidos, then slept in Socorro NM and ate the Jackson Ranch
heading to my Ruidoso Convention Center meet and greet then ENMU FI-210 with Teresa Rigby.
Right from there on to Roswell NM Big Daddy’s Diner for some kick ass burgers then to the next Academy in Cloudcroft NM (FF2/Squad Boss / Single Resource / Engine Boss / My Refresher Course.
I know I did not go into too much details of my events yet I hope after reading all this you look a snake in the eye and wave one hand in front while you nab his neck and choke the sucka to the death then toss it on your windshield while you get your post office mail and people see it there and see their ooohss and awwws ( right Sonny- that was OUR realities ) and then skin the sucka and remove guts and deflesh the skin and soak it in 3 to 1 alcohol and glycerin and on to eat it or the dogs will –
Good night.
Food for thought RTS- just because people have their own set of thoughts and express them does not have to match yours
I agree with Woodsman on what I know behind the scenes I think you need more data to start spewing the quasi-military stuff…when I am tied to papers you never fully explain WHY you make that a focus so much so I usually skim that part not pay it much mind so if you want me to pay it mind- fill me in in another way because I did not absorb the ways you have so far – as well as the thing on quislings, I am buffaloed there. Serious. I guess I am no the one who had a dear friend do a declaration for me than invest sixty grand based on his declaration then have the friend take it back then get moved or promoted ??? and then the case goes weird and then to say I had records on it one year plus before you so HOW did they do a REASONABLE search for yours??? I don’t get that at all. Messed up world.
It is a new year, Please look inside to FORGIVE…you have forgiven me on much more crappy stuff I did so please do not be so hard on the men in your life…would I be a quisling if I was male???? just wondering.
Happy St Patty’s to you wtktt and Sonny and all the Irish that come here…
hey I noted this week in Prescott we have a WILLIS street and DOUGHERTY street- funny huh
https://ushotshots.com/shop/
I see other events on their shopping area but not that one
Fine work Joy. Was that a post or was that a post? Nice one on bypassing the two link issue with how you spaced them out to disguise them.
I stand on solid ground stating that wildland firefighting is quasi military versus para military.
And I will have to disagree with you on your taking sides issue. Those of us here and on your YHFR website are on the side of searching for and exposing the truth and lies about the YH Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy..
And one more thing, since you’re now a bona fide Facilitative Instructor maybe you can help us all out and redo this NIFC endorsed POS. This video and the moron that does it may very well have contributed to the GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not third-year-crewmember opinion that Fire Order No. 10 was “hillbilly” AND that it also may have contributed to the deaths of the GMHS since it was published in June 23, 2011.
Thank you and keep up the good work staying the course in this historical fatality wildfire that is the only one that has ever had two eyewitness hikers.
You and Sonny and your many personal experiences and interviews with WFs, FFs, and Yarnell homeowners and residents, etc., photos, videos, and much more have completely contradicted the YH Fire SAIT alleged “Factual” SAIR.
I’m adding the NIFC-endorsed “10and 18” just (like they spell it on the video) that I mentioned above and failed to post the other day.
Nauseating …
( https://youtu.be/_-9LKkSDVzE )
Don’t forget you are above 50% Irish Joy so happy St. Patrick’s Day to you–and all our friends on the Emerald Isle.
Sounds like you know a lot more about this Donut and his actions than you can say at the moment.
I am not sure how much smoke could be seen in columns once the wind is up in the 35-40mph range. So the wild land fire fighter would have to tell me if that smoke would be more laying down or would you see it rising in columns.
I woke up with a headache–short of brreath and some chest pains–so what do I do go look at the symptoms of coravirus. Well some Mexican gal was coughing in Wal Mart and I was within 10 feet–that gal did not have the presence to cover her mouth. But it shows how concerned we are about this thing. I see there are about 119 varieties or what they call mutations of this out there. That is strange–does this stuff morf into various strains that quickly–say on a plane ride from China to the US or other parts of the world? Or are these mutated varieties escaping from somewhere else?
I am one that believes that 911 was a planned operation and false flag just as the Kennedy assassination was carried out by the CIA. With 8.6 trillion dollars unaccountable since 96 there has to be some skulduggery in the makings. Why haven’t the Big Media brought charges against China for allowing this virus to get out? Watching the WHO people that went to Wuhan, China, all I see is congratulatory talk. Then I watched some old woman Senator in a Senate meeting about the situation in America and after ten minutes of telling the other bullshitters how great they are–she went on for a long thing about what to do. It is almost like a parade of clowns to watch these things and much like the killing of the 19 where afterward so many were congratulating each other on their efforts at wild land fire fighting at Yarnell. Even giving out awards, and in the end making a hero out of Donut even though he withheld the truth and continues to do so. You have to wonder how in such a tragedy these people were able to get away with it–but then there is China being congratulated for releasing the virus.
Strange world to say the least. It would be almost discouragement if it were not for some that do not lay down and surrender to the lies. There are after all quite a few people of integrity–so we do go forward with a positive view that the truth will win despite the many rascals upholding the lie.
Thanks WTKTT and Woodsman and of course Joy and RTS who do their best at getting the facts out.
If it were different and the truth had been told from the start this would not have to be sorted out. But when it is obvious the truth has been hidden at the peril of future wild land fire fighters. We owe the dead as well as the living the truth of what happened.
yes- you are 55.2% Irish and I am 55.8%
we both go back to 1880s…three generations back
I have stronger than 97% including you Neanderthal genes
You come from Dublin and Greater London and I come from 3 counties of Ireland included is Dublin
We both have genetic disposition for macular degeneration and we both have genetic disposition for thrombophlebitis and I have the genetics for Hemochromatosis and I carry the genetics for cystic fibrosis and I have genetically cirrhosis. You were born with a special way to live nine lives 😉
Sonny…you also have Somalia in your DNA genetics…not much though…you did tell me you were half black…why was that?
How was your St Patrick’s…mine is going well…
My Mother’s maiden name was ‘Black so that qualifies me as half black and all Irish. MY regret that I did not in this lifetime go to Ireland and learn the language. Our people have some of the greatest artists and writers, even scientists.
I could not sleep thinking of the terrible medical issues you face. Perhaps modern science can address them, yet it saddens me to know.
One thing you will always have a marvelous brain and something many do not know are you expert psychic abilities that few could equal. I think you will be able to help many with those, I know you have done some work with me with excellent results. Your ability to look into another dimension is uncanny. Keep up that work–it is important and a great help for those that would seek your advice and even concerns they might have of health.
You hear me chastise the congress people but rightly so. Telecom spent 50 million dollars in lobby fees to buy a law so they can not be sued for EMF waves that are proven in many studies to cause brain tumors, cataracs, and other maladies. They also got their law so that as long as your cell phone does not raise your brain temperature more than 2 degrees then you are supposed to be safe. But now they can locate a beaming microwave tower right next to your window and there is nothing you can do. So these are going up at a high rate all over the world and eventually they plan to saturate earth with satellite microwave.
But you can see these congress people represent the big Corporations, not the people that elect them. And yes rats that are subjected to cell phones over a long period as people use them develope brain tumors and cataracs and other problems including the fact that their veins become calcinated. Those waves mess with DNA but have proven to open up cells to absorb excess calcium. So keep you cell phone away from your arteries–calcination means hardened arteries and heart disease.
..
I woke up above ground–again so that is a good St Patricks day. Made a trip into town==Jez Wal Mart Shelves were almost empty–did get a few black beans only four cans left but I like those and that is enough. Same when I went to sprouts–but a bit better. I guess they expect FEMA to order everyone in quarantine which may well be.
The powers that be have spread this far and wide with 119 different mutations they claim. Massachusetts had a breakout with no one that had the disease having made any contact with infected people. Well, maybe they will prove me wrong—I hope so. But it looks damn suspicious to me and likely a test to see how many elderly they can kill off. And who are they? I do not think we will ever really know–it is not the President but some of the Puppeteers. Pharma will do big on this one–and we have yo yo’s playing with virus to see what it will do. Well they are seeing.
My opinions and I do not expect anyone else to subscribe. But when Telecom can buy laws for 50 million what else is being done?
RJ85 Fire Fighting extreme near miss (https://youtu.be/O2KCYhULWZ8)
The Good Lord was watching out over these guys that afternoon!
“Safecom report was filed August 1, 2019 by the crew of a BAe-146 about an incident that occurred July 1, 2019. Here is the complete narrative from the pilot:
While conducting retardant operations I descended below a ridge crossing altitude. This was NOT on purpose. I tunnel visioned the drop, and continued down. This was a little fill in spot and I was really focused on finishing the line. As I stated, this was NOT on purpose. We {crew} debriefed and talked about what happened, and of course, how to prevent this type of screw up.
Source: fireaviation.com (emphasis added)
I also learned from long time people one of the YHFire folks is called a dictator
he is the dick and you are the tater-
and another thing I learned is someone on YHFire did see my mystery man that day June 30, 2013 so I have a bona-fide witness
another thing I learned was Delton can sure make some wicked baked goods
I also learned I am for sure treated proper this year except M.C. thought I was someone’s girlfriend – uhhhh – heck nooooo. I guess you had to think that to “distract” from realities, sir.
I also learned about 9 more FOIAS to pull thanks to M.C. and others talk-
US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION has not given me the proper invite and I am a paid member but my GOOGLE ALERTS for US HOTSHOTS ASSOCIATION showed me this and on same page is Dean Whitney if none of you ever got to meet him. –>
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9m3jTXBnMP/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
Maybe that was why they did not alert me of my paid membership rights and notifications to it
who knows
who cares
this is Dean Whitney
Now does he look like what RTS has shared here?
https://www.instagram.com/p/B9iEaKXBxH8/?utm_source=ig_web_button_share_sheet
besides the falling of the declaration and “maybe” someone coaxed that new path for Dean … does he deserve to be labelled? just curious…
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on March 16, 2020 at 8:21 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I also learned I am for sure treated proper this year except M.C.
>> thought I was someone’s girlfriend – uhhhh – heck nooooo. I guess
>> you had to think that to “distract” from realities, sir.
>>
>> I also learned about 9 more FOIAS to pull thanks to M.C.
>> and others talk-
If you are talking about this year’s AWIMA wildfire academy held there in Prescott, then I am assuming M.C. stands for Marty Cole… yes?
Yes
I was showinpllpg him a respectful way to talk about him minus full name but yes that is M.C.
I pulled records and he seems agitated and said he was not even there that day and I am focused to City of Prescott missing file that his long time friend said he M.C. took it home and it was the safety file on crew 7.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on March 18, 2020 at 3:35 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I pulled records and he seems agitated and said he
>> was not even there that day.
Of course he was ( there ) in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Lightning round/reminder regarding Marty Cole…
Direct link to Marty Cole’s own handwritten Unit Log for June 30, 2013…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/02ue6bnjp6nazkm/AADr0tQfBIVH0TA9l7-SDhhGa/Safety?dl=0&preview=C01+-+ASF000417-INV+to+420-INV.PDF&subfolder_nav_tracking=1
– He was ‘ordered up’ as a ‘Safety Officer’ for Yarnell at 1:30 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
– At 1:45 PM he tells Tony Sciacca ( via phone ) that he’s not going to head to Yarnell until he receives official resource order from Prescott National Forest Dispatch Center.
– He doesn’t get that ‘order confirmation’ until 2:30 PM. Only then does he start to head down to Yarnell from his home ( Chino Valley ).
– According to the final ADOSH report, Cole didn’t arrive in Yarnell until about 4:00 PM.
Marty Cole is the one who was looking after Brendan McDonough in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot as they waited for the search teams to find the GM bodies. In the Russ Reason video, McDonough is seen leaning on the back of Marty Cole’s white pickup truck parked there at the edge of the RHR parking lot.
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> I am focused to City of Prescott missing file that his long time
>> friend said he M.C. ( Marty Cole ) took it home and it was the
>> safety file on crew 7.
If that’s true… then Marty Cole is guilty of a FELONY.
Arizona State Legislature
Arizona Law
Arizona Revised Statues ( 2020 )
https://www.azleg.gov/viewdocument/?docName=https://www.azleg.gov/ars/38/00421.htm
—————————————————————————-
38-421. Stealing, destroying, altering or secreting public record; classification
A. An officer having custody of any record, map or book, or of any paper or proceeding of any court, filed or deposited in any public office, or placed in his hands for any purpose, who steals, or knowingly and without lawful authority destroys, mutilates, defaces, alters, falsifies, removes or secretes the whole or any part thereof, or who permits any other person so to do, is guilty of a class 4 FELONY.
B. A person not an officer who is guilty of the conduct specified in subsection A of this section is guilty of a class 6 felony.
—————————————————————————
Pretty much this same issue came up just last month with your new Arizona Secretary of State.
She received an open records request about emails sent to/from her predecessor, the PREVIOUS Arizona Secretary of State.
On trying to fulfill that open records request… she ( and her IT staff ) discovered that months of ( public ) emails associated with this previous Secretary of State were MISSING.
She did what anyone can/should do when they find evidence that someone has either stolen or destroyed public records.
She contacted the Arizona Attorney General’s Office.
She even said exactly WHO she contacted about the ‘missing’ record(s)…
Assistant Attorney General Todd Lawson and Beau Roysden, chief of the Appeals and Constitutional Litigation Division.
The Arizona Capitol Times
Article Title: Hobbs: Reagan staffers deleted public records
Published: February 25, 2019
By: Ben Giles and Hank Stephenson
https://azcapitoltimes.com/news/2019/02/25/hobbs-reagan-staffers-deleted-public-records/
From that article…
—————————————————————————-
Former Secretary of State Michele Reagan and top staffers deleted public records before leaving office in January, according to the new Secretary of State, Katie Hobbs.
Hobbs, a Democrat, alerted state attorneys of the issue on Feb. 14, 2020.
The discovery arose while Hobbs’ staff attempted to fulfill a public records request, she wrote in an email to Assistant Attorney General Todd Lawson and Beau Roysden, chief of the Appeals and Constitutional Litigation Division.
“It has come to our attention that emails were deleted by the previous secretary and several executive staff prior to leaving office,” Hobbs wrote on Feb. 14, 2020. “Not sure if this should go to criminal or civil division, but wanted to be sure to bring this to your attention. We are happy to provide further details that would be helpful.”
It’s a FELONY for officials to knowingly destroy ( or hide ) public records in Arizona.
—————————————————————————–
He did not admit or deny my records request content on missing safety file that moment
yet his agitation was felt that whomever told me is no friend of his
and I explained Sonny and I were on the Weaver’s that fateful day and we have a right to know the facts even the ones not yet public.
He could be agitated because he seems old school and who am I to do that ???
I am a girl who could have died that day if Sonny was not sooo persistent to LET’S GET THE HELL OUTTA HERE 
I was going the positive position with him until he stated he was not even there that day.
Then I stopped feeling so empathetic and felt for the first time he is capable to lie to me and it made me very sad, wtktt
That’s our safety officer out there for us in wildland fire…that now scared me.
I like honest people in those positions.
His style belongs elsewhere at this point.
Like the unemployment line for being okay to lie to the eyewitness where 19 good men perished- I deserve better respect.
Yet RTS speaks truth to power and you get scooted out. ??????
wtf.
sad.
here is to the current system where they get agitated that the eyewitness refuses to just settle with the lies they tell.
Get right or get left, M.C..
—————————————————
On January 18, 2020 via web Request #20-62 (sealed as “unpublished” to the world’s views as many of my requests are) was created because they closed my MC request so I made a new one
Closed Request ( Marty Cole )
I would like the archival records – Safety Profile – for Crew 7 and or Granite Mountain Hotshots
non commercial request
electronic return preferred
I understand this may be in paper form only and I will accept prepay of copies of this SAFETY PROFILE
———————
this is my history of PRRs on Marty Cole:
Received
January 7, 2020 via web
Departments-City Clerk, Legal Department
Requester- JOY A COLLURA
Request Opened Public
Request received via web – January 7, 2020, 1:08pm
Department Assignment Public
Added: City Clerk, Legal Department.
January 8, 2020, 7:52am
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Thank you for submitting your request. We will be processing your request and contacting you when it is complete. This process can take up to 10 business days or longer.
Please note if your records are kept electronically by the City and then provided electronically, there is no charge for the documents. However, if you requested hard copies or the records are kept in hard copy only, it is .25 cents per page. If you have any questions regarding your request please contact us via this request.
Thank you.
January 8, 2020, 7:53am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Request Closed Public [yet it lays unpublished to your public view]
???
Dear Requester,
There are no records found that comply with your request. This request is now closed.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 1:22pm
MY REPLY:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
On this one, I would like to ensure you are comfortable with that closing response.
This may be an area I take to the next level so I want to make sure you fully checked on this one.
Thank You
Best Regards.
January 17, 2020, 1:31pm by the requester
THIS WAS THEIR REPLY ????-
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
There was not an INDEX/LOG in storage. I did find a partial list of requesters, which could possibly serve as a INDEX/LOG, but they were all from the media. None of the names were “Cook” or any derivation of “Cooke” on that short list.
Who might “Cook” be, so that I may understand where to possibly place this person and look in another area? Although, I believe I looked through all the boxes that would have such a record.
Thank you.
January 17, 2020, 3:17pm by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
——
THEY USED ANOTHER REQUEST AND ADDED THAT BUT COOK WAS IN THE LOOP IN THIS REQUEST FOR ONE MORE MESSAGE UNTIL I CAUGHT IT
—————
the rest of that Request #20-15 thread as it shows to me; newest shown first:
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
This is a notification that for Feb / March 2020 if you have any areas needing me to log in to a PC please note it to 480 559 1971 voice mail area because I am away from my PC to attend school in that time period and away from technology but can use another’s cell to call my message area of the 480 number. Thank you. Best Regards.
January 25, 2020, 10:30pm by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Very important that this CLOSED request gets a FINAL comment from my January 18, 2020, 8:46am comment down below before I escalate this to next area.
This is a rather important inquiry that may require even asking Mr. Cole himself on this request.
Thank you. Best Regards.
Closed to me is stating you do not have any document showing historical documents given to Mr. Cole in regards to the names I showed especially the Safety File.
That is how I define closed.
January 25, 2020, 6:54pm by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
I did not come across the name “Cook” or “Cooke”. However, as we continue to fill your requests, I will keep a look out for the name. If I do find something, I will let you know.
The media log is in paper format, so you will need to pay for the copies. I will need to go back into the storage facility and gather those documents and let you know how many pages.
Please know some of your requests are being filled out of order, due to staff coming across documents and wanting to fill requests quickly. Since most of these documents are in paper, there will most likely be more charges for the documents as we go.
Thank you.
January 21, 2020, 9:50am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
There was not an INDEX/LOG in storage. I did find a partial list of requesters, which could possibly serve as a INDEX/LOG, but they were all from the media.
——————-
Yes, any index log showing all who has asked about YHF and or GMHS even list of media names
January 18, 2020, 10:21am by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I am in Fire Season Training starting Monday but this closed request may at some point be a public focus so that was why I wanted to double make sure you fully checked this out on Marty Cole.
I need to fact check your area and ensure you know at some point this will be a public focus.
So if you are okay with closing this and all was checked then I am okay.
January 18, 2020, 8:46am by the requester
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Defining Cook is difficult
I automatically went to CYFD Fire Marshall
but the Yavapai Concerned Citizen stated no he is younger than him
so I am still on the hunt but they say this man was at some sort of official meetings in 2013 and was forced out of town and I had never heard such a thing but I was cleaning damaged and destroyed home 12 hours a day back then so I could have missed that so now looking because of this others true concern.
January 18, 2020, 8:43am by the requester
Explore 118 requests and counting.
Wtktt, when you go to prescott.nextrequest.com
how many does it show to you publicly
can you review JOY A COLLURA’s requests?
City of Prescott records have the following requests numbers of mine beginning with the first [oldest] one and does not include any from 2013-2016 before this digital system:
Request Opened Public [ Request Visibility: Unpublished ]
Request received via email
December 26, 2017, 1:41pm
Request #17-427 Request Visibility: Unpublished
TOPIC: Brendan James Mcdonough (Granite Mountain Hotshot)
JOY: I have downloaded everything from this request and it can be archived as well #17-427- September 3, 2019, 2:16pm by the requester
RECEIVED: contents McDonough Records
GMIHC Manifest 2013-redacted.pdf
———————————-
the next request was Request #18-363
TOPIC: The record of name ownership to GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS
was it tied into the city having ownership of such name
Can the name be used again and how to obtain that permission
Did you ever find out the alumni roster for GMHS location
Or the answer/document of the finances the city made each time the crew went out on a job?
Noncommercial request
I can view and take my own notes June 15th or July 6th or Aug 3 2018
DEPARTMENT: FIRE DEPT
Request Visibility: Unpublished
Request Opened Public
Request received via web
May 29, 2018, 5:27pm
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Can you explain further what you mean by, “Or the answer/document of the finances the city made each time the crew went out on a job?”
We are not sure what you are referring to.
Thanks so much.
June 11, 2018, 11:38am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Ms. Collura,
The City has no records responsive to your request regarding “Granite Mountain Hotshots” name ownership. The State of Arizona Public Records Laws requires that we make records in possession of the City, with certain limited exceptions, available to the public. Under your Public Records Request, the City cannot advise if the name “Granite Mountain Hotshots” can be used by you or anyone else. The Arizona Secretary of State and/or Arizona Corporation Commission websites may have additional information on any intellectual property rights (copyright, trademarks, etc.), or existing business entities associated with the name “Granite Mountain Hotshots”.
In regard to the GMHS alumni, the City cannot locate any records responsive to this Request.
Please provide further details as to the specific type of records you are requesting with your following statement/question: “Or the answer/document of the finances the city made each time the crew went out on a job?”
I’m not sure what this means.
We hope to hear from you soon.
Thank you.
June 12, 2018, 11:31am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
I read the email 6.12.18 5:19pm.
Finance question.
When GMHS was getting paid is there any document showing how the city of Prescott financially benefited from them being tied to the city? I would think finances or administration dept of Prescott would know.
June 12, 2018, 5:21pm by the requester
External Message Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
Thank you for the clarification. I have forwarded your inquiry to finance.
Thank you.
June 13, 2018, 7:58am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
External Message Hide Requester + Staff
Dear Requester,
The finance has researched the request and responded as follows:
“The City has no document requested showing any financial benefit received from the GMHS. The GMHS were being paid with City funds.”
Thank you.
June 13, 2018, 9:42am by Angelisa Winemiller, Paralegal (Staff)
Request Closed Public
Your public records request has been completed and closed. There were no documents found to provide.
Thank you.
June 13, 2018, 9:44am
External Message Requester + Staff
I8-363 request can be archived
I have to mention the +READMORE button does fail in this request though
I am going through the requests to check
September 3, 2019, 1:47pm by the requester
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
when you go through this process with me KEEP IN MIND I have GOOGLE ALERTS set for certain names and topics and Troy Steinbrink is one of those listed because a long time friend of Willis told me Troy was there that June 30, 2013 so if any of you google him he is not much out there in the GTS ( google that shit) world so I set his name to my alerts and LOOK ABOVE to POINT OF CONTACT – and I will begin in a near future post show the world HOW ONE CAN VIEW THE ACTUAL STEPS OF JUNE 30, 2013 OF THE PEOPLE THERE- even Tro to rule out if it is fiction or not, I doubt it is fiction because of WHO was brave enough to speak to me.
Point of Contact
Jaimie Sventek
now his name did come back under one another’s social media (Troy and Jaime) so I “snipped it” for archival purposes because I was like is this why his area was closed so quick= my request? Does this 2015 article hold validity? I have to think of all “worst case” scenarios? I have to question the information I am presented and fact check verify – why? I have to question requests being closed way too quick? why?
Because continued public articles like these:
h t t p s://sedonaeye.c o m/yavapai-county-corruption-alleged/
( Yavapai County Corruption Alleged
SEDONA TIMES / JUNE 8, 2015 / 52 COMMENTS
scales of justice court Sedona AZ (June 8, 2015) – The following is a letter to the SedonaEye.c o m editor as received with only the writer’s street address, telephone numbers, and email address removed from the attached Department of Justice letter:
To whom it may concern:
I have recently become a resident of your beautiful community. Yavapai county is a beautiful place to live. However, the corruption and oppression that takes place behind close doors is horrific. I believe that an outcry for the public’s awareness is necessary.
Arizona was found to be the most corrupt state in the United States according to a study by Harvard Law and published in the Wall Street Journal.
h t t p://blogs.wsj.c o m/riskandcompliance/2014/12/04/study-names-arizona-as-most-corrupt-state/
Furthermore, Bill Williams of the Examiner did an excellent piece on the intrinsic relationships of the Yavapai Superior Court system in 2012. Over the past three years I believe the corruption has gotten worse and not better. It will continue to worsen as it goes unaddressed. The only people the system is truly hurting are the families and loved ones of those the Court system and legal system is taking advantage of. The education level of those who are affected by those in power only amplifies the problem.
h t t p://www.examiner.c o m/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
Yavapai county’s 98% conviction rate stems from the fact that all the rules are broken in order to secure that conviction.
Attached please find a letter to the U.S. Department of Justice which was also forwarded to the Investigator General in Washington D.C.
You have to ask if those in power are trying to help or hurt. I’ve come to the conclusion that those in power in Yavapai county are the worst kind of criminals there are.
Thank you for your time and investigation into the matter.
Sincerely,
Cheri Remmenga
(attachment)
Cheri Remmenga
(street address, telephone number, email address deleted by editor)
June 5, 2015
U.S. Department of Justice
Civil Rights Division
950 Pennsylvania Ave. N.W.
Office of the Assistant Attorney General, Main
Washington D.C. 20530
RE: YAVAPAI COUNTY CORRUPTION
Dear U.S. Department of Justice:
I’m writing to you concerning several Federal statute violations and state statute violations occurring in the county of Yavapai, Arizona. I am originally from Los Angeles, California and was arrested driving westbound on the I-40. I had never heard of the county prior to my incarceration on December 1, 2014. I was incarcerated at the Camp Verde Detention Center from December 1, 2015 to May 5, 2015. Lack of law resources may cause me to include practices wherein no actual violation of the law occurred. During the first 60 days, I witnessed or in some instances experienced the following:
Illegal search and seizure
Unreasonable seizure
Denial of preliminary hearing
Improper grand jury
Denial of legal research for inmates
Refusal of prescribed medicine for mentally ill
Mishandling of inmate trust funds
Improper use of Anti-Racketeering Fund
Improper use of Investigative Fund
Laws that are prejudicial on their face
Lack of check and balance system for law officials
Abuse of power and authority
Improper Handling of U.S. Legal Mail
Illegal practices that violate an individual’s constitutional rights are so commonly practiced that they are accepted as being normal and legal.
As with many of the cases here, my own case involves a search in violation of the Fourth Amendment. Chino Valley Police Department seized an estimated $11,000 worth of property on December 1, 2014. I have yet to receive a receipt or inventory of the property taken from me as required by ARS § 13-120 and ARS §§ 13-3919-21. Some property was taken to Chino Valley Police Department, some property was given to Prescott Valley PANT sub-station, and approximately $2000.00 of property was not accounted for. My attorney, Linda Moore, said the police can take everything whether it is relevant to the case or not. This would be an unreasonable seizure of property under the Fourth Amendment (also see US v. $12,248 U.S. Currency, the United States Court of Appeals, Ninth Circuit 957 F.2d 1513, found, “It is impermissible for government to simply to hold property belonging to a United States citizen for extended period of time without reason while neither conducting investigation nor attempting to verify claimant’s story”). This is a common practice. They let a civilian take my vehicle according to Chino Valley Police report 14C-10240. In California a tow company is utilized to secure a vehicle. I will address the illegal search in court. Most people here seem to be ignorant of their rights, so the illegal searches go on unaddressed. (1)
Within 48 hours after being at the Camp Verde Detention Center, I was strip searched three times. On December 4, 2014, I was placed in a small room without a toilet, sink or running water for 7 hours. The detention officers claimed I couldn’t leave the room until I urinated in a cup. For failure to urinate for them, they put me in isolation for 34 days. I requested to speak with a sergeant but all I was told was that inmates have no procedural rights pursuant to Sandin v. Conner. You could not appeal their decisions. I was denied access or aloud to review the case they relied on. My request for access to legal books was denied several times.
Furthermore, an organization called PANT (Partners Against Narcotics Trafficking) is very influential, and they have a lot of power in Yavapai county. Their objective seems to be righteous in nature, but without any check and balance system for the agency, their practices can be considered corrupt. Arizona law allows them to seize property related to numerous crimes. When it is successfully forfeited, the seizing agency is the 100% beneficiary. They get to keep everything they take.
The more property they seize the fatter their pockets grow. There is no check & balance system to defend against a system set up for corruption. A claim is rarely submitted in time to save defendant’s property because they are denied access to legal research. Brand new E class Mercedes, businesses, and houses are commonly seized and forfeited before the person is ever found guilty. The money goes in the pocket of PANT usually the seizing agency or documents are falsified to say they are the seizing agency. The money is supposed to go into the county anti-racketeering fund and investigative fund and distributed pursuant to ARS §§13-4310 (g) and 13-4318. After speaking with several inmates and some PANT employees (also whom are inmates) I’ve learned how a large portion of that money is spent. They pay addicts to use drugs and bring them information. They place electronic surveillance devices on some of their informants. Their paid informants have most likely signed a contract with PANT. One rule for their informants is they can’t be on probation because they can’t use drugs. I don’t know if this is illegal or not. It seems unethical at the least and a misappropriation of the funds. While I was in isolation, a girl came to my door (she worked for PANT reporting directly to John Hannah (telephone number removed by editor) and offered $1,300.00 to me for information on the whereabouts of names to find informants that stopped reporting. The statute § 13-4318 was written so that the funds would be used for drug treatment and education or gang prevention. It was not written to direct the funds to support drug use by buying addicts their drugs. (2) I even have suspicion that crimes have been set up to gain $200,000.00 worth of property (see State v. Fritz matter).
I continued to observe major discrepancies in Yavapai County’s judicial procedure and California’s legal procedure. Most are due to each states individualized laws. However, due process is the bare minimum offered by the constitution which included a right to a preliminary hearing, but only two prelim hearings have ever occurred in the Prescott Justice Court. My preliminary hearing was January 14, 2015 at 4:00 pm. I never went and it never actually occurred. The prosecutor will take your case to a Grand Jury hours before the preliminary hearing. I’ve read several Grand Jury transcripts with the permission of the defendant’s. It appears that the Grand Jury consists of the Bailiff, the clerk of the court, and sometimes acquaintances of the officer testifying. This is far from impartial. The foremen changes every time within the same Grand Jury which violates the § 21-412. These are sealed proceedings, so no one would know the difference nor do any of the defendant’s actually read their Grand Jury transcript. Pursuant to Arizona Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 12.9, challenges to the transcript can be made 25 days after the proceeding, but the defendant doesn’t receive a copy of the transcript until 30 days after the proceedings. In addition, the jury always deliberates and returns a 12-0 or 16-0 true bill in less than three minutes even when there are ten felony counts to consider. (See Grand Jury No. 184-GJ-179662 also see State v. Remmenga’s 12.9 Motion to Challenge Grand Jury). (3)
After conversations with some of the inmates at Camp Verde Detention Center, I was informed that my inmate trust account was getting $2.00 a day deducted from it for rent. I don’t recall ever authorizing this deduction or acknowledging this charge. I was told that it’s not posted anywhere but its common knowledge. I have not been convicted of a crime yet but am being charged without my consent or authorization for meals. This in in violation of the Arizona Constitution, Article II § 30. The worst part is that upon release you’re given a debit card with your remaining balance on it, but you can’t pull all of the cash off of it. You are forced to make purchases with your card which I suspect PANT monitors. The punch line is that money continues to be deducted from your card.
Yet another illegal tracking of recently released arrestees is to install a GPS on impounded vehicles without the consent of the owner. By the time notice is given to the owner, the GPS tracker has been removed (see State. V Bushee).
My last concern I will address I this letter can only be described as “torture” or “cruel and unusual punishment” by the women who are documented as having some sort of recognized mental illness. Yavapai County prides itself with their zero tolerance for narcotics, even legally prescribed narcotics. The most common substitute for psych medication is a very large dose of benedryll. I witnessed a women start ramming her head against a wall until she was removed. Another women in lock down was allowed to scream “get them off me” for over 14 hours until the deputy officer removed her from her cell bloody from apparently hitting whatever she thought was on her. Two more women tried to explain to me the torture of paranoia, voices, and fear of a psychotic meltdown because they were being denied their narcotic prescribed medication. Even if their doctor sends their medication to the jail, it will be denied. They are told if they are at the jail for over 60 days they will consider to allow them their medication. For some women, it creates a mental torcher chamber within their head. This could be considered negligent of the medical practitioner.
As to the violations or staff misconduct that I personally experienced, I attempted to resolve the multiple issues. I have kept a record of such to the best of my ability.
I’d like to conclude by recapping on the various issues I believe are in violation of state (federal and state), unethical or labeled as misconduct. The statutes in violation are listed also:
ILLEGAL SEARCH AND SEIZURE –
Fourth Amendment of U.S. Constitution; ARS §§ 13-120 13-4315
UNREASONABLE SEIZURE OF PROPERTY –
ARS §§13-3919-21 13-4306 c 13-3919 13-4365 f 13-4306
DENIAL OF PRELIMINARY HEARING AND BIASED JURIES –
Arizona Constitution, Article II § 30; ARS §§ 13-114; Arizona Rules of Criminal Procedure, Rule 5; Title 13 Chapter 21
DENIED LEGAL RESEARCH
DENIAL PROCEDURAL PROTECTIONS
REFUSAL OF PERSCRIBED MEDICATION FOR MENTAL ILL
MISHANDLING OF IINMATE TRUST FUNDS
Arizona Constitution, Article II § 30
IMPROPER USE OF ANTIRACKETERRING FUND
ARS §§ 13-4310 (g); 13-4318
PREJUDICIAL LAWS
Anti-Meth laws and sentencing guidelines. Law prejudices as to a particular type of addict. Holding that type of addict to stricter rules and penalties
LACK OF CHECK AND BALANCE SYTEM FOR LAW OFFICALS-
PANT is getting paid to take property. They are not held accountable for failing to perform their duties prescribed by statute
ABUSE OF POWER AND AUTHORITY
Monitoring spending, GPS tracking, illegal searches, and lack of due process when seizing property, denial of procedural rights, and everything mentioned herein.
My legal mail was opened without my presence. The contents of my legal mail was removed from the package and slipped under my door seven days later. In other instances my legal mail was opened and a note was written on it saying that it wasn’t read and the opening of the legal mail was inadvertent. Complaints were made to Sergeant Bolt regarding the mail. Nothing was ever done about it. I had legal mail that disappeared completely send by P. Henning (telephone number removed by editor).
I hope that each allegation is diligently looked into.
Sincerely,
Cheri Remmenga
See Also :
“Croynyism, Nepotism and Favoritism in a Small Town Courthouse,” Bill Williams. Examiner. June 27, 2012.
Panzarella v. Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office; Yavapai County Attorney; Steve Waugh; Superior Court of Yavapai P1300CV201001948
Measuring Illegal and Legal Corruption in American States by Harvard, Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics Corruption in America Survey. Arizona was number one.
See WSJ study on Arizona Corruption
(1) See In the Matter of White 2010 Toyota Yaris; One Thousand Three Hundred Sixteen Dollars in U.S. Currency Cause No P1300CV201401195 – The State illegally seized and forfeited property. Motion to Vacate Judgment is pending.
(2) Paid Informant GS has accepted money for drugs from PANT (telephone numbers deleted by editor); TM accepted money and drugs from PANT
(3) CAUSE nO. p1300CR201500039 – Grand Jury deliberated for four seconds returning a true bill as to two counts. The reading of statutes and counting of votes cannot even occur in four seconds. See 12.9 Motion filed May 18, 2015
Read w ww.SedonaEye.c om for daily news and interactive views!
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TAGS: ANTI-RACKETEERING FUND, ARIZONA CONSTITUTION, ARIZONA CONVICTION RATES, ARIZONA NEWS, BILL OF RIGHTS, CAMP VERDE DETENTION CENTER AZ, CHERI REMMENGA, CHINO VALLEY POLICE DEPARTMENT, COUNTY CORRUPTION ALLEGED, CRONYISM, EXAMINER, FAVORITISM, FOURTH AMENDMENT, GPS TRACKER, GRAND JURY, HARVARD LAW SCHOOL, NEPOTISM, PANT, PANZARELLA V. YAVAPAI COUNTY SHERIFF’S OFFICE, PARTNERS AGAINST NARCOTICS TRAFFICKING, PRESCOTT AZ, PRESCOTT AZ JUSTICE COURT, PROPERTY RIGHTS, SEDONA AZ, SEDONA EYE NEWS AND VIEWS, SEDONA NEWS, SEDONA TIMES PUBLISHING NEWSPAPER, SEDONAEYE.COM, SEDONATIMES.COM, STATE V FRITZ, STATE V REMMENGA, STEVE WAUGH, U S CONSTITUTION, U S DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, UNREASONABLE SEIZURE OF PROPERTY, WSJ, YAVAPAI COUNTY AZ
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52 Comments
Dylan j says:
August 25, 2019 at 5:00 pm
The following is my opinion: My name is dylan jacobs..I thoroughly agree with this article..I. upset on how some people cant agree…this county justice..is straight financial rape ..money is the root of all these issues..u cant Express how badly I was treated by the courts…my appointed lawyer..and especially came verde..I solemy swear I stand for this article’s truth..its all valid…anyone disagree..take a trip and visit our camp verse jail..talk to the inmates..research the statistics. About yavapia courts..there’s slot have blantly clear clear misuse of power ..its disgusting..for example.
Yavapai..probation violation bond is 15,000 dollars..however Maricopa is 1500 dollars..they make it easy to keep you, hard to get out..and when your out .extremely hard to fight your case..public defenders prosecutors the judges and probation..all work together..to keep this cycle going..its really sad…I’d like to start a group of peopel that agree that there needs to be a change..and try and come together and do so..
Hannibal says:
October 19, 2019 at 7:20 pm
I couldn’t agree more with the comments that have been left on here. For I would like to speak with Cheri Remmenga, for there are a lot of the same tones that she went threw that Im going threw.
I hope that the publisher will pass my info along. _)
The following comments were a part of a thread not my words just wanted complete article content like wtktt knows how to do but mine was too large so I had to break it up:
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:12 AM
investigativemedia.c o m/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482942
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:13 AM
investigativemedia.c o m /please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482943
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:15 AM
investigativemedia.c o m/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482945
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:19 AM
investigativemedia.c o m/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482947
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:20 AM
MARCH 19, 2020 AT 7:20 AM
https://web.archive.org/ shows nothing for https://web.archive.org/details/www.examiner.com/article/cronyism-nepotism-and-favoritism-a-small-town-courthouse
unless I did it wrong,
The 2020 AZ Wildfire Academy was particularly odd this year in that they more or less slacked off on the way they’ve treated Joy in the past and focused on me instead.
Their Mission Statement: “The mission of the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy is to develop professional and safe responses in the wildland/all hazard environment by offering training and education that meets or exceeds the National Wildfire Coordinating Group and FEMA standards.
” Our goals, dedication and passion is firefighter safety. That everyone goes home every time. It is the foundation of our organization. The Academy provides the catalyst to bring all hazard responders together each year to provide quality training and updates on the latest safety protocols. The academy is attended annually by emergency response agencies throughout the country with over 20 states represented each year. (emphasis added)
Academy Expectations – The Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy strives to create an enjoyable learning experience which supports the mission of the Academy and the organizations sponsoring that attend as students, faculty, and staff. Students and trainees should expect a learning environment which demonstrates civility and respect. Respect for the rights of others, for the Academy, and for our University hosts, staff, staff and property are essential expectations. During the period of the Academy’s scheduled classes and activities, these “expectations” apply to on-campus and off-campus behavior. The Academy reserves the right to refuse registration to students based on previous negative experiences. This last “previous negative experiences” one is totally subjective and undefined and very new.
” Honesty in academic work is a central tenet of the Academy’s learning environment. Students and trainees are expected to demonstrate honesty in the completion of Academy class work. Presenting another’s work as one’s own or the act of seeking unfair academic advantage through cheating, plagiarism, or other dishonest means are contrary to the Academy’s “expectations”. In addition, failure to abide by these “expectations” may result in removal from the Academy without a certificate.”
The honesty section obviously seems to apply to everyone except the Academy Cadre that refuse to talk about (or allow others to talk about) the YH Fire ad GMHS in a classroom setting for a Lessons Learned fulfillment.
What a perfect opportunity and setting with most of the June 30, 2013, YH Fire IMT Command and General Staff and Operations personnel performing as Academy Cadre. And how about all those lost opportunities for a YH Fire Staff Ride?
Several Staff Ride sources express the need for participants to rely on numerous specific incident source materials due to the fact that the Investigation Reports fail to address “human factors.” Therefore, WFs/FFs know instinctively that the real human factors are hidden within this epic tragedy. .And that Staff Rides are a valuable asset in the “lessons learned” tool box to reduce them. And in the case of the YH Fire – it requires different “information sources” to be factual.
Dr. Ted Putnam stated: ” Once firefighter and investigator lies about fatality fires get written into official reports, staff rides only turn the lies into dramas. Even if the Truth later seeps out, the staff rides keep regurgitating the same original lies. The net effect is firefighters keep dying for the same reasons. We lie to protect our imaginary personal, crew and agency images and real firefighters keep suffering and dying to nourish those collective fragile egos. We told the real truth during the Battlement Creek Staff ride development; none of it ever got incorporated into that staff ride. There is very little learning at the Lessons Learned Centers.
(emphasis added) ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
No wonder WFs and FFs are dying on wildfires for the same reasons.
Oh yeah, that’s right, those lessons learned opportunities would require “honesty” and the actual truth about the June 30, 2013, YH Fire debacle. It instead falls under the other dishonest means category as the biggest cover-up, lie, and whitewash in wildland fire history.
Back to the 2020 AZ Wildfire Academy – Several of the instructors admitted to having been approached by Cadre Members and “warned” about “this guy.” This included forbidding “this guy” to engage with their students in specific settings. Lunch periods were pretty open, however, there was always some Cadre member taking note of those associations.
This guy was told that he was allowed in classrooms of his paid tuition only. And if allowed into another classroom to visit a graduation or presentation, there was strict direction from the Academy Administrator (PFD) that ” you may not speak. … And if you speak I will have you removed. ”
What was especially obvious was the almost total lack of discussion or talking about the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy in any of the classrooms and / or forums.
One afternoon, I attempted to engage the Safety Officer students in a classroom conversation regarding their attempts to dissuade the Steed and the GMHS from leaving the black the afternoon of June 30, 2013. I asked them how many have ever considered that over time. At least four out of eleven of them raised their hands. Nobody spoke.
However, the Instructor totally avoided the conversation and never said a word about the YH Fire of the GMHS, other than to maker a complete diversion to a generalized “managing risk” discussion. And none of the students spoke about the YH Fire or GMHS even once during the week. The YH Fire and GMHS were never a course discussion topic even though many opportunities presented themselves.
One morning briefing included the Cadre Safety Officer talking about the 1994 South Canyon Fire. He said that when he read the report he noticed that one of the Serious Accident Team investigators did not sign the report. He also noted that there were a lot of “human factors” discussion points.
That day or the following day, one of the Cadre members told him that he was offended (or some other Snowflake comment) and that was ” conspiracy
.” Are you f**king kidding me? He meant that in a negative way, however, the definition of conspiracy is when two or more individuals discuss and / or plan to engage in an illegal activity. I would say that falsifying SAIRs falls well in that category.
I asked him why he never helped me engage the class in the YH Fire discussion above about having thought about being the Safety Officer on The Weavers that day with the GMHS attempting to convince them to stay in the black. He gave me some feckless excuse and basically said he would never do that.
The Definition of Lying and Deception Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy
First published Thu Feb 21, 2008; substantive revision Fri Dec 25, 2015
( https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/lying-definition/ )
Interesting and informative article. It takes just about every twist and turn imaginable from an entirely secular worldview.
Had a short visit with PFD Marsh’s former USFS supervisor a couple weeks ago. He served as an OPS in the IQCS.
Without any real prompting, he almost immediately stated: ” we trained that guy … It was his arrogance. … Marsh should have never been supervising the GMHS that day. … And Steed succumbed to Marsh’s threats and intimidation because of his Marine Corp influence, … used to following orders.
And this one completely impressed me when he said: ” Eric, you really f**ked us this time. ” (all paraphrased)
I told him he was one of three others that I know that have heard and possess that same June 30, 2013, recorded statement from Steed.
I want to comment on all of that information, but the only thing I can think of to write is, “OMGosh!”
Well…I did finally think of what I consider to be an insightful comment that is similar to the one I wrote last year about this time. And that is I’m pretty sure that both Joy and Fred have bigger balls than I do and theirs are made out of stainless steel to keep walking into Snake HQ and facing the strongest deceivers face-to-face. I don’t do it and I won’t do it, because I can’t do it.
As Eddie Arnold would belt it out Gary- with me feminizing it…I got my Lord above…
Health and love and happiness have been my cup of tea…
The richest [WO] man in all creation surely it is me
I’ve got water in my well and heaven in my heart
I have a perfect [buckaroo] I can trust when we’re apart
Cash enough to see a show and eat out now and then
A roof a bed a fishing pole and folks who call me friend
I don’t have much bank account my cash on hand is small
But tell me what are riches but contentment after all
Other folks may think I’m poor but I know it’s not so
Cause when I count my blessings I’m the richest [wo]man I know
https://youtu.be/Qi0Ibs0VofY
CORRECTION:
The (all paraphrased) comment refers to all the other comments and postings. and NOT Steed’s to Marsh.
And this one completely impressed me when he said: ” Eric, you really f**ked us this time. The paraphrase comment is inaccurate. This is EXACTLY what Steed said on each of the recorded statements.
I told him he was one of three others that I know that have heard and possess that same June 30, 2013, recorded statement from Steed.
Ok so I got deleted on the past post–maybe a good thing since I have raved at the dishonest government entities enough. They will not change–their religion and God wants you in the dark–plausible denials–another political politeness of saying lie like hell and cover up with any bullshit as long as it keeps us looking good and the public ignorant.
So be careful now, Gary–that damn virus is now known that it is being spread in Massachusetts without any reason such as being around infected people. I do believe this shit is dropping out of the sky sort of like the retardant only not quite as deadly percentage wise. The only difference is this virus is airborne and sticks to things with some longevity. Man, those scientists must have worked overtime to develop a virus that has these strange characteristics and is so selective to the people they think should go first.
Wow, strong statement–Marsh the man who beat the murder rap by suicide. And it would be good to know whom Marsh was taking orders or “suggestions” from. There are more involved although perhaps with mitigating circumstances.
This is why the truth needs to be on the table and public. There is more than Marsh involved or the truth would be out for all to know.
Looking at Italy and how fast this designer virus is spreading in the US many of us posting here are in high danger. But then most of us have been in high danger many times before yet have survived.
But this enemy is unseen and designed to knock out the elderly and those with taxed immune systems. This is one flu killer that does not mind the cold or heat and according to sources will last at least four hours on such things as door handles, phones, etc. WHO people who were at the Chinese start of this thing say an alcohol wipe will work or 20 seconds of soap and water. Hand to mouth is the main way of getting it but someone coughing or sneezing the germ will do the trick.
Monday is the start of the new vaccine test on 45 volunteers. What do they do –expose them to the virus after? It is strange how these governments invent these deadly viruses and say they have not cure–or maybe it is not so strange with the ideas some governments have about population reduction issues. Usually a war brings things down but looks like the war is moving to using designer virus kills.
I can’t believe most in our government would sanctions such action. The lot of them in any high position are bought by the World Financiers, Corporations and World Money Gluttons that have their agendas and opinions of things. You can bet they are not run of the mill ideas and when you know in fact there are secret Bielderberg meetings and the like where even the Big Midia men attend yet keep their mouths and intentions quiet then you can know that you will not get the truth.
It is a world thing now and they are proving it with this virus. No country is immune and as the WHO guy stated, this is just a start of pandemic situations. He of course blames it on people screwing monkies or some such shit as people getting enroaching on the natural environment such as the Town of Yarnell had by living in that area instead of Prescott or preferably Phoenix.
Their retardant chemicals did a number on plenty of folks there but WHO did not bother to stop in on that one even though that retardant was much more deadly than this corona virus is for wiping out the elderly and the immune taxed people.
But you sure see them reporting out of Wuhan, China but with the same attitude as the FS and State had concerning the GMHS crew. They knew damn well why the GMHS crew are dead and the reason for the negligent or purposeful deaths–either way a homicide case. Instead WHO is reporting out of Wuhan that it has nothing to do with the Type 4 disease center. What a laugh but I do believe most people are stupid enough to believe the lie.
It might interest you to know that Howard Hunt on his death bed said the CIA had killed Kennedy and he named perpetrators. You sure did not hear that on major networks and I got it from listening to one of Ventura’s talks. He made a point that if they would put out ballots that had a no vote box that likely these candidates would win an election looking at more no votes as beating their votes.
I do believe that the system has corrupted so badly that votes mean nothing these days. It is obvious from the chicanery we saw involving both the deaths of the Yarnell GMHS crew and the deaths of many after due to the massive retardant dumps in and about Yarnell that the system is nothing more than an example of how government in general has devolved.
Thomas Jefferson and Patrick Henry both stated that protest is the key to good government. Government that is not questioned and becomes so secret and compartmentalized that it is able to cloak itself in sheeps clothing but in many ways is the wolf has taken itself toward tyranny.
Jesse Ventura believes as I do that we should quit acting like the Roman Empire or the English Colonizers. Bring our soldiers home where they belong–there is not a vet on this planet that would not defend this country even with the few freedoms we have left. We need honesty and that is so hard to find in government.
As you notice the WHO people are wearing full face masks and Hazmat suits–they know how easily this stuff is transferred but they are not telling the full story. This is a mass murder thing yet they are denying the truth. Damn, when will governments get right?
“Without any real prompting, he almost immediately stated: ” we trained that guy … It was his arrogance. … Marsh should have never been supervising the GMHS that day. … And Steed succumbed to Marsh’s threats and intimidation because of his Marine Corp influence, … used to following orders.”
Because of his Marine Corps influence? Bullshit. It was because of his “Don’t fucking trigger the crazy guy in charge, who’s on the way out and if I play my cards right I’ll be in charge & we can have some sanity around here for a change, “influence.
Oh, and McDonough killed his own crew helping set the fire in the Shrine corridor, so he, or somebody, thought it would a good idea to hire his own attorney.
Refute that.
The comment about Marsh’s arrogance really jumped out at me as well and that opinion certainly tracks with what I think I have learned about the guy over the past several years. That and his deep seated feelings of inadequacies because of his failed career and the huge chip on his shoulder that led him to prove everyone wrong about him through the GMIHC.
And I agree about the Marine Corps training being responsible for Steed’s actions as I have stated before. Hotshots are fully capable of making mistakes because of their own culture, ethos, training, indoctrination and esprit de corps. They don’t need any training from the Marine Corp or anyway else to live up to the hotshot hype or to risk dying trying to…sometimes.
Woodsman,
WTF over? Fired up or what in quasi-attack mode against a fellow Truth Teller ? !
You posted: “Because of his Marine Corps influence? Bullshit. It was because of his ‘Don’t fucking trigger the crazy guy in charge, who’s on the way out and if I play my cards right I’ll be in charge & we can have some sanity around here for a change, ‘influence.”
Kind of unsure what you’re getting at there. The crazy guy in charge needed no triggers to set him off. Surely, Steed knew that he was the stabilizing force and that his ultimate responsibility as a supervisor was the safety and welfare of his men, no matter what.
Yet, please recall that he set the stage that morning by telling those two former Doce Fire supervisors he worked with that ” Marsh is gonna get us all killed ” when they asked him how it was going, as they met up as the GMHS was released from the Doce Fire and reassigned to the YH Fire.
That’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy given the fatal outcome that day.
And for him to make the statement to Marsh “you really f**ked us this time” seems odd because it was Steed that was in charge of those men that afternoon. Marsh was the DIVS A and never really relinquished control over the GMHS during that afternoon.
And for him to say that suggests that he failed in his ultimate responsibility as a supervisor. Nobody held a literal or figurative gun to these men’s heads that day. Nobody “forced” them to do what they did.
Yet, Steed’s assertion means that he ceded Marsh the power to override his good judgement; those numerous other times on other fires.
“Oh, and McDonough killed his own crew helping set the fire in the Shrine corridor, so he, or somebody, thought it would a good idea to hire his own attorney.” Having a difficult time accepting this one. Where is your proof?
“Refute that.” And to this, I say prove it. It’s not up to me to refute it.
You seem to almost always want other’s to share their YH Fire and GMHS evidences and sources yet fail to do so yourself.
I’m not attacking you. I’m attacking your idea.
My position is Steed didn’t need any help from his military experience. We, as a wildfire culture in general and hotshot culture in particular, did that all by ourselves. Pawning the idea off on the US military instead of ourselves shirks our responsibility to change of own culture where it failed.
I already stated my opinion of the “actual” influence. It was…Steed’s “influence”:
The “Don’t fucking trigger the crazy guy in charge, who’s on the way out and if I play my cards right I’ll be in charge & we can have some sanity around here for a change” influence.
I know it’s not your responsibility to refute my claim. I’m simply attempting to steer the discussion into productive territory. Your reference to the USFS employee who trained and knew Marsh is valuable context. I don’t agree that the US military training of anybody of the YHF had anything to do with the loss of the crew. Our own failures did that.
Woodsman
And you are looking at Steeds responsibility to the safety of the crew as job #1 as if it occurred in a vacuum, which is certainly not the way it worked out in the real world. See his actual “influence” in my previous post for reference.
RTS said
“And for him to make the statement to Marsh “you really f**ked us this time” seems odd because it was Steed that was in charge of those men that afternoon. Marsh was the DIVS A and never really relinquished control over the GMHS during that afternoon.”
It wasn’t “odd” in the least. Marsh never actually gave up control of the crew. Make sense now?
In other words, you answered your own question in your last sentence of your paragraph.
Woodsman,
I posted: “Kind of unsure what you’re getting at there” in reference to your “… we can have some sanity around here for a change, ‘influence.” Your comment was unclear to me.
Regarding the Marine Corps influence, I think we are in agreement and merely differ in how we come to our respective conclusions. I’m holding my ground.
Marsh was fully acting in the role of DIVS A as long as things were flowing smoothly, however, that all changed once the “discussing our options” GMHS Crew Net radio conversation ensued. It was then that Marsh became more aggressive and assertive and much more.
I disagree completely with this: ” …looking at Steeds responsibility to the safety of the crew as job #1 as if it occurred in a vacuum, which is certainly not the way it worked out in the real world.” I never stated nor do I believe that this all “occurred in a vacuum.”
Marsh kept pressing him and the GMHS to leave their safe black and hike down to the BSR. And Steed kept pressing back with “we’re not gonna make it” and “we can’t make it” with Marsh replying back to him: “I understand and I’m sorry.”
According to those (many WFs, FFs, Federal, State, Municipality, Contractor, etc.) who have recordings and / or heard these recordings, Marsh began to call them names and apply some “guilt trip” techniques … and much worse.
Steed then used the feckless ” hinting or mitigating speech ” rather than direct speech when he described where the fire was at the time; because Marsh was unable to see the fire from his location, and he was likely hoping that Marsh would relent and reconsider his stance.
Consider now the Marine Corps influence, from their own website. It is very powerful and reveals the mindset of those Marines with these comments under this heading: ” The Ultimate Sacrifice
“On June 30, Travis and fellow Marine Jesse led the Granite Mountain crew into the toughest fight they had ever faced with no second-guesses. They had a mission to accomplish — protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.” (emphasis added)
The three GMHS Marines “… with no second-guesses. They had a mission to accomplish — protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal.” That is purely Marine Corps influence on top of and in addition to the WF culture. They are separate and distinct revealing correlation and not causation. .
” For the remaining members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, their duties remain the same. They will continue protecting the communities around Prescott from the wildfires, but now have the additional duty of living up to the example and sacrifices of their fallen brothers.” (emphasis added)
“For the remaining members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, … [they] now have the additional duty of living up to the example and sacrifices of their fallen brothers” is a purely Marine Corps influence. What bulls**t! Thank God there was no second GMHS Crew to follow in those footsteps.
( https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html )
The GMHS respected these three Marines, notwithstanding their WF experience, and so it’s allowable to infer that their June 30, 2013, discussions and decisions would also have been respected that day.
I’m up to over fifty (50) US Marines and it’s still holding about 50/50 on the question of whether or not their Marine Corps training and ethos influenced the GMHS Marines to follow orders and bail of the hill on June 30, 2013.
Although recently, two Marines clarified it this way. Paraphrasing here – ‘As a young Marine, I would have followed orders, however, now as a 40-something year old Marine, I would at least make an attempt for an optional move as detailed in the “How to Properly Refuse Risk” section of the IRPG.’
You posted: that you disagree that “… the US military training of anybody of the YHF had anything to do with the loss of the crew. Our own failures did that.”
And I say that it was the US MARINE CORPS, and so then I agree that it was NOT “the US military training of anybody of the YHF [that] had anything to do with the loss of the crew …”
And to your “Our own failures did that” I would agree to a point with the caveat that the US Marine Corps training and ethos augmented and influenced those human failures resulting in their faulty actions and decisions that day.
I have to get back to my chores …
Thanks for the new information. I know you’re not calling Steed “feckless”, just his actions of mitigating speech, but that doesn’t sit quite right with me. Maybe it’s because I have a better grasp of the multiple obstacles he faced in trying to effectively lead the crew that day. Also, I’ve heard that term thrown around a little bit with others over the years and under the circumstances I don’t believe it should apply to Steed.
Steed was in the position to find creative ways to walk the line of keeping his crew safe while trying not to light the fuse of a supervisor with a history of known problems. So, give the man a break.
Thanks!
And before you say, yes his 1st and foremost responsible was to his crew. The vacuum comment I proposed, doesn’t mean you had to say it. I simply meant Steeds actions didn’t occur absent external influences, in a perfect world. IE: in a vacuum.
“Marsh began to call them names and apply some “guilt trip” techniques … and much worse.”
That’s bad. Real bad. Much worse? Like what? “You’re all fired if you don’t come down?”
Free tip: don’t say “and much worse” at the end of your statements if you don’t want to tell me or are planning not to tell me. It just makes me want to know and creates frustration.
Thanks!
>> RTS said…
>>
>> “Marsh began to call them names and apply
>> some “guilt trip” techniques … and much worse.”
I agree with Woodsman.
This represents ‘new’ information’ and ( if true ), would be “Bad. Rreal bad.”
Any more details to add?
Have you ( yourself ) actually heard these other “recordings” of the argument/exchange between Steed and Marsh?
As for the recent assertion about McDonough and him having anything to do with any manual burnouts on June 30,, 2013… it should be noted that Mcdonough’s whereabouts for the entire time period from when he was rescued by Frisby to when he finally arrived in the Ranch House Restaurant parking are absolutely KNOWN.
There really was no time ( or opportunity ) during that entire sequence of events where Mcdonough could have either undertaken any manual burnouts by himself OR stopped to help anyone else do something similar.
There’s still so much we do NOT know about what happened that day… but Mcdonough’s whereabouts during the critical times that afternoon ARE known due to a combination of his OWN time-stamped photographs and the Blue Ridge GPS time logs.
Followup…
From the time that Blue Ridge Superintendent Brian Frisby accidentally “stumbled across” Brendan McDonough out by the old grader… to the time later on that Brendan was filmed standing in the Ranch House House Restaurant parking lot next to Marty Cole’s white pickup truck…. Brendan was only ALONE for a few minutes.
The only time Brendan was ALONE in that timeframe was right after Brian Frisby dropped him off where the GM Supt. and Chase trucks were staged at the top of the Sesame clearing area.
Frisby dropped Brendan off there, and then headed south in the BR Polaris Ranger UTV to fetch Trueheart Brown and bring him back so that both of the GM command vehicles could then be moved.
Bredan was left ALONE there with the GM Supt. and Chase trucks for about 8 minutes.
It was during that time that Brendan pulled out his network-connected Samsung smartphone, stood on the gunwale of one of the GM trucks, and took that series of photographs looking NW at the approaching fireline. He captured a small ‘smoke-nado’ in one of those photographs.
The photographs that Brendan gave the SAIT are still HERE…
https://www.dropbox.com/sh/mmb98r3j53s2urp/AAByKsspNPJQ24ujuVzMxjf9a
Could Bredan have ALSO “lit something up” during those 8 minutes he was waiting for Brian Frisby to return in the UTV with Trueheart Brown?
Well… yea… I suppose it would have been POSSIBLE.
The GM Supt. and Chase trucks certainly had drip-torches somewhere onboard.
Brendan certainly knew how to use one, since his own book opens with the story of how he and Christopher Mackenzie almost burned themselves to death using drip-torches on the Doce fire just two weeks prior to Yarnell.
But it is NOT very likely Brendan would have done any such thing.
If Brendan had “lit anything up” during those 8 minutes he was left alone with the GM Supt. and Chase trucks… he would have risked killing both himself and Brian Frisby, who was actively driving back north TO that location.
Copy that. Gives me a lot to think about. It’s just that nothing would surprise me anymore. The comment from True Brown about people burning themselves up, “God damn! probably referred to the rest of the folks in the Shrine corridor firing. Thanks.
Reply to Woodsman post on
March 16, 2020 at 1:45 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Copy that. Gives me a lot to think
>> about. It’s just that nothing would
>> surprise me anymore.
I hear ya. Even as someone who knows the existing ( public ) evidence record very well… I ( now ) hesitate to ever say something did NOT happen.
It is now an absolute given that there are too many people who have either outright lied or have never told the full truth to be sure the existing evidence record is anywhere near the “full story”.
That’s why the best I can do for you is to say that, according to the CURRENT evidence record ( what we know so far )… it is NOT likely that Brendan participated in any manual burnouts that afternoon.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> The comment from True Brown
>> about people burning themselves
>> up, “God damn! probably referred
>> to the rest of the folks in the Shrine
>> corridor firing.
It still remains VERY important to know exactly what Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown meant when he made that ( recorded ) statement to PNF employee KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell.
He had definitely just witnessed SOMETHING taking place that, even with all his experience, made him use curse words and call people “idiots” and tell Yowell they were “putting their OWN lives in danger” with their own stupidity.
That RECORDED statement of Trueheart Brown’s is NEVER going to go away.
It will ALWAYS be there… begging for more explanati0n.
Followup…
As for Brendan showing up to even his first ADOSH interview with a lawyer…
I remember the moment I first heard that the only member of that crew to survive was actually the designated “lookout”.
I remember immediately thinking to myself…”I hope that guy has a fucking lawyer. He’s going to need one.”
The other reason that Brendan “lawyered up” so early is because Brendan really didn’t want to tell “the whole truth” to anyone.
Even in his first ADOSH interview it was obvious that he had been counseled by the lawyers to ONLY answer questions about radio communications that were specifically directed AT him.
Every time the ADOSH investigators asked Brendan about what ‘other’ radio communications he MIGHT have ‘overheard’ that day… Brendan’s “lawyer-coached” response was “those communications were NOT directed at me”.
So all along during the initial interviews and into the attempts to get him “under oath”… we see Brendan FIGHTING to NOT have to tell the “whole truth”.
And he got away with it.
Brendan McDonough has still ( yet ) to tell the “whole truth and nothing but the truth” with his hand raised and under penalty of perjury.
Woodsman and WTKTT,
“And here is another small step yet less than giant leap for GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not, for a weekend at the 14th annual Celebrate the Art of Recovery Expo (CARE) where Community Bridges, Inc. (CBI) will break down the barriers to find help and hope in recovery.
“When: Saturday, September 28, 2019 from 10 a.m. – 2 p.m. Where: Phoenix Convention Center, West Building #300 Why: To celebrate National Recovery Month and break down the barriers associated with addiction
”Brendan McDonough – KEYNOTE SPEAKER – Lone Survivor of Yarnell Hill Wildfire
“When it comes to really digging deep in recovery, in work, as a family man, and in faith, Brendan McDonough is living proof that Breaking Down Barriers leads to success in recovery. And to being happy, joyous and free.
And to being happy, joyous and free is right. Happy that he ducked out of several YH Fire deposition subpoenas, joyous that he retained a criminal attorney, and free from telling the truth about the YH Fire in order to “protect my Brothers.”
I send these to McDid-Not every so often to help him wend his way through his recovery and to encourage him to share what he knows in order to heal.
United Flight 232 Captain Al Hayes: “This is my 52nd speech on 232. Every time I give it, I think I convince myself just a little bit more that there was nothing else I could do. And its part of my healing process. To not talk about it, to bury your head in the sand and pretend it didn’t happen, you’re going to explode someday. So if somebody wants to talk about a trauma, listen to them. If they want you to talk, you talk about it, and listen to them. But be there for them, and help them. That’s very important.”
(emphasis added)
(Hayes, A. Eyewitness Report: United Flight 232
{https://www.airdisaster.com/eyewitness/ua232.shtml})
____________________________________________
“Good afternoon Brendon. Happy March. Still waiting for you to fulfill your promise to send me the records documenting that the Prescott attorney, the PFD, and the AZ Forestry cancelled your depositions and not you. You said you’d send me the records to prove that. Please honor your commitment, so that I will be able to tell more of the YH Fire story and make a public apology to you. Thank you and best regards. …” (emphasis added)
RTS,
Hmmm. I have a guess why you’ve never had that opportunity for a public apology to McDonough.
Everything he did out there that day at the lookout spot that negatively affected the crew was carefully covered up after the fact, wasn’t it. Frisby and Brown know. That’s why they couldn’t be interviewed for the SAIR. The 3 Prescoteers know everything as well, don’t they. That’s also why they made sure they weren’t interviewed for the SAIR.
Everyone who holds pertinent facts about the Yarnell Hill fire needs to start talking before they explode one day, right?
So start talking everybody.
McDonough: it’s time.
Woodsman
Woodman,
The reason McDid-Not and all other USFS employees were not interviewed by the SAIT was for the following reasons.
Taken from: Why was it that the SAIT and ADOSH investigators were able to interview BLM employees but unable to interview U.S. Forest Service employees to obtain critical Yarnell Hill Fire Human Factors information?
June 19, 2019 by Arizona Desert Walker Joy A. Collura and contributing others
( https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:amjjwtYQqjEJ:https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/06/13/Why-was-it-that-the-SAIT-and-ADOSH-investigators-were-able-to-interview-BLM-employees-but-unable-to-interview-US-Forest-Service-employees-to-obtain-critical-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Human-Factors-information+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us )
A Ctrl-F search for “Touhy” within the post notes 24 hits and denotes the 13 questions interviewers need to address and more
Memorandum of Law Regarding Subpoenas for Testimony or Records from an Employee of the Department of Agriculture
( https://www.rd.usda.gov/files/PA_PN_293_SubpoenaMemo.pdf )
This USDA edict contained within this letter applies to all of the Leviathan USDA, USFS employees even though this is a USDA Rural Development memo. The USDA USFS employees on the YH Fire were at least the BRHS, several of the Air Operations personnel, such as Tom French, John Burfiend, and all misc. WF Supervisors or others in various Overhead positions.
‘The restrictions on testimony by employees of USDA, for the issuance of subpoena regulations and on the production by such employees of official records in their custody based is on the primary case authority of United States ex. rel. Touhy v. Ragen, 340 U.S. 462, 95 L. Ed. 417 (1951). In Touhy, the United States Supreme Court held that an agency has the authority to restrict, by regulations, the testimony of its employees, and that a Federal employee may not be compelled to obey a subpoena contrary to supervisor’s instructions issued pursuant to valid agency regulations.’
The following USDA Memorandum of Law letter excerpt is particularly harsh: “In any case in which an employee of the Department of Agriculture is denied authority by the head of the employing agency to appear in response to a subpoena, the employee is prohibited, under penalty of disciplinary action, from testifying or producing records. See § 1.218 of the regulations.” (emphasis added)
In other words, NO USDA USFS employees were ever allowed to be interviewed or questioned by the SAIT or the ADOSH Investigators due to these regulations. And many otherwise “Public Records” were ever provided to the SAIT or the ADOSH Investigators as well. However, BLM employees were allowed to be interviewed, such as DIVS Z Rance Marquez, Dan Philbin (DIVS), Paul Lenmark (Air Attack – AA), and Rusty Warbis (AA).
As noted in the USDA letter “A particularly thorough discussion of these principles, dealing with cases in which the United States is not a party, is found in Exxon Shipping v. Dept. of Interior, 34 F.3d 774; Boron Oil Co. v. Downie, 873 F.2d 67 (4th Cir. 1989)”
What follows in the next three paragraphs is a noteworthy Federal Lawyer (March 2013) article titled “Sixty Years of Touhy” that further brings both Touhy and the Federal Housekeeping Statute into view and clarification as key to why they were not allowed by the USFS to be interviewed by with investigation team.
( Federal Lawyer Magazine/2013/March/Features/Sixty Years of Touhy )
“This article explores 60 years of Touhy by first describing the legal background that led to Touhy. In the second section it relates the essentials of Touhy and its practical effects in subsequent administrative regulations and lawsuits. The third section describes the 1958 congressional legislative response to Touhy, and the very limited results of that legislation. The fourth section outlines how the majority of federal courts have looked to the U.S. Code for jurisdictional and statutory guidance on the boundaries of the “housekeeping privilege,” which is based entirely on legislative acts dating back to 1789. The fifth section describes the U.S. Court of Appeals for the Ninth and District of Columbia (D.C.) Circuits decisions and a few academic articles which have assumed that federal judges must have the power to finally determine all questions of privilege, and have therefore insisted on judicial means for enforcement of subpoenas, despite Touhy.
“The concluding section argues the point that judges are not endowed by the U.S. Constitution or the U.S. Code with the authority to independently and finally determine all questions of privilege, regardless of circumstances. At present, the U.S. Code empowers the heads of federal agencies to make initial determinations regarding the release of agency records and subjects those determinations to judicial review under circumstances and standards defined by the same code. (emphasis added)
“Unless the determinations of privilege violate a statutory or constitutional standard, federal judges do not have inherent authority to overrule lawful executive branch or congressional determinations of privilege. Section VI argues that generalized notions of judicial supremacy should not be substituted for express statutory authority to determine privilege.”
Wait just 1 minute, WTKTT, I got something. And you helped me. Thank you.
McDonough didn’t just wander around out there by the old grader at his lookout spot when he was deciding what to do after the fire conditions deteriorated. Remember, he “contemplated ” burning out around himself and/or finding a place to deploy his fire shelter? There’s a possibility he actually DID put fire on the ground during this time. And if he did, he was below GM at the time. Recall nobody had a better view of the fire than GM themselves up on that ridge. Frisby, while running to meet Marsh for a face to face meeting happened upon McDonough and picked him up, possibly as he was trying to burn out around himself. This may explain Brown’s comment to the 3 amigos when asked how hes doing, ” trying to keep people from burning themselves up, goddamn!”
All of this may be included in the unit logs of Frisby and Brown and encompasses the redacted part. What was that part about fire around him on that road that shows up in McDonough ‘s account?
Explain to me how you believe its impossible McDonough put fire on the ground from his lookout spot.
When he realized he made have helped send fire to the crew he may have told someone, who advised him he needed the help of an attorney. And he we are, 7 years later, and he’s never been required to tell what really happened on the Yarnell Hill fire, at least in any kind of sworn official testimony
BOOOOOM!!!
Thanks!
Woodsman
Reply to Woodsman post on
March 16, 2020 at 3:27 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Wait just 1 minute, WTKTT,
>> I got something. And you helped
>> me. Thank you.
Longer ‘Reply’ to this has been posted up above where there is more ‘column space’…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482899
Woodsman and WTKTT,
“Marsh began to call them names and apply some “guilt trip” techniques … and much worse.”
Agreed That’s bad. Real bad. It’s as if you heard this from some WF yourself: “You’re all fired if you don’t come down?” Pretty close
It’s in my notes somewhere from an Anonymous-by-Request WF that has / heard this from an audio recording, so this is very precise paraphrasing here:
‘For those of you still alive by the time you get down here, you’ll all be fired.’
I’ve never heard that from anybody before. I’m just good at imagineering. Really, really good.
And THAT certainly brings some additional context to the discussion. Thanks!
I think we have threats and coercion covered when it comes to Marsh. Do you know of any otthers that threatened or coerced the crew to exit the black and get to the ranch?
I guess he didn’t have to worry about firing anybody since they all died following the threatening and coercive orders. Nice
And yes, I do always want everyone to share their evidence of what happened at the Yarnell Hill fire. I won’t apologize for that. Thats actually why im here…trying to find out what happened to GM and why.
Placing the theory out there of McDonough participating in the firing op that helped kill his own crew is my way of moving the ball forward. Every scenario of what actually happened is on the table until it is eliminated by evidence to the contrary. A process of elimination if you will. To suggest I’m holding something back is hilarious. I’ve been throwing theories up against the wall to see if they’ll stick through evidence for coming on 3/4 of a decade. Haha!
My latest theory is something I’ve constructed out of the bits & pieces I’ve found here & the non-foia public documentation. It’s my new one to prove wrong.
McDonough had the positioning geographically (according to eyewitness Sonny), he’s burned out before (And apparently got a thrill out of it), it’s a legitimate wildfire tactic, it was talked about and planned for in that area, photos exist showing it, and after the deaths of the crew McDonough felt obligated to hire his own attorney (or someone else did it for him.)
This is my evidence I’m “holding back” from you. Haha! There. Now you have it. Tell me how I’m wrong and why. The why is the most important part.
See my recent comment just up above.
It talks about McDonough.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482867
It’s really NOT likely that McDonough had anything to do with any manual burnouts in the critical 1-hour timeframe from 3:50 PM to 4:50 PM.
Was there a time when Brendan was ALONE in that timeframe and it really can’t be said ( for certain ) what he may or may not have been doing?
Yes.
Brendan was alone for about 8 minutes after Frisby dropped him off by the GM Supt. and Chase trucks and took off in the BR UTV to fetch Trueheart Brown.
The GM Supt. and Chase trucks certainly had drip torches on-board somewhere… and Brendan certainly knew how to use one since his OWN book begins with the story of how he and Christopher Mackenzie almost burned themselves to death using drip-torches on the Doce fire.
But it’s really not likely Brendan “lit anything up” during those 8 minutes he was waiting at the GM Supt. and Chase trucks for Frisby and Brown to return.
…and tell me if im wrong, but isn’t this considered new evidence? I don’t think I’ve heard this before.
“Yet, please recall that he set the stage that morning by telling those two former Doce Fire supervisors he worked with that ” Marsh is gonna get us all killed ” when they asked him how it was going, as they met up as the GMHS was released from the Doce Fire and reassigned to the YH Fire.”
She’d more light on this, please.
What seems ‘new’ about that statement is the actual ‘detail’ regarding exactly WHO it was that Steed was talking to ( “two former Doce Fire supervisors” ) and WHEN the conversation took place ( “as they met up as the GMHS was released from the Doce Fire” ).
Previous references to that statement from Jesse Steed ( that Eric Marsh was going to “get us all killed” ) seemed to indicate it was in a cellphone call Jesse placed the morning of Sunday, June 30, 2013.
WOW, OMGosh, I think my head might explode from all of this information and just trying to process it! So…thanks WTKTT, The Woodsman and of course the one, the only…RTS!
Woodsman and WTKTT,
This is from our YHFR website post titled: Part 2 of 5 – Underneath every simple, obvious story about human error, there is a deeper, more complex story – a story about the system in which people work. Will these formerly unrevealed public records change the account of what occurred on June 30, 2013? posted on December 15, 2019 | Joy A. Collura and emphasis added here on these five posts that there are other contributors”
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/12/15/Part-2-of-5—Underneath-every-simple-obvious-story-about-human-error-there-is-a-deeper-more-complex-story—a-story-about-the-system-in-which-people-work-Will-these-formerly-unrevealed-public-records-change-the-account-of-what-occurred-on-June-30-2013 )
PDF JPEG IMAGE OF OUR 2019 AHFE PPT PRESENTATION IMAGE:
“After the Doce Fire Briefing on June 30, 2013, transition to Yarnell Hill Firer assignment” USFS PNF Doce Fire Overhead supervisors to Acting [GMHS ] Supt. while in transit to the YH Fire. ‘How are things going?’ The way things are going [he’s] gonna get us all killed.” (emphasis in red in original)
Figure 45. PDF JPEG image of after the Doce Fire Briefing on June 30, 2013, and transition to Yarnell Hill Fire assignment conversation between WF overhead and GMHS Acting Supt. Steed. Source: Schoeffler and Anonymous-by-request WFs
“This concerns a face-to-face conversation on the morning of June 30, 2013, with two USFS PNF WF supervisors that worked with the GMHS on the Doce Fire the week prior to the Yarnell Hill Fire. The GMHS was still assigned to the Prescott NF to work on the Doce Fire and Misc. ABC fires securing lines and mopping them up. The GMHS had completed the morning briefing for these wildfires and were notified of them being “committed” or reassigned to the YH Fire and were then in transit to Yarnell. Along the way, these men met somewhere and had a brief discussion with Asst. GMHS Supt. Steed as follows:
“These two former Doce Fire WF supervisors asked Steed ‘How are things going?’ Steed replied: “The way things are going, [he] is gonna get us all killed.”
“This significant, disturbing conversation was recounted to me by a former USFS fatality investigator, a “contributing other” author (on four separate occasions), and other USFS WFs. This is chilling – well frightening is more like it! He knew that morning that things were bad, and yet he followed stupid and unsafe orders to hike into a Death Trap, taking the GMHS with him on a Trip to Abilene. Talk about a “self-fulfilling prophecy!” One has to wonder … were these two USFS WF supervisors that worked with the GMHS on the Doce Fire the week prior ever interviewed?”
This was clearly posted on our YHFR website on December 15, 2019. You guys need to get out and about more often. A bit more of GTS ya know
“Clearly posted” is a stretch.
Woodsman,
A stretch? You’re kidding me, right?
You didn’t get the joke. Carry on, friend! 🖒
I guess I missed it. Please enrich me with your wisdom
RTS,
I’m going to try to address this again…what I’m about to quote from you. But 1st, thanks for the account of your attendance of the AZ wildfire academy. None of it surprises me other than they haven’t found a legal way to keep you away. I’m glad they haven’t and don’t find the way you were treated or the way they acted shocking. If they are trying to protect a fictional story then it makes sense to try to neutralize any perceived threats to the storyline. You’re a threat, big guy.
Here’s the quote from you:
“Kind of unsure what you’re getting at there. The crazy guy in charge needed no triggers to set him off. Surely, Steed knew that he was the stabilizing force and that his ultimate responsibility as a supervisor was the safety and welfare of his men, no matter what.”
What I mean is the wildfire culture of death from above, expectations of management, and the unwritten encouragement of the competition between hotshot crews created the deadly circumstances. On top of this, you have a crew fielded by a city fire department, led by someone absolutely out to prove they had a better, more capable crew than anyone else (who was knowingly put it that position after he’d been fired from the USFS, not out there competing against them), under the pressure of city managers questioning the economic viability of said crew, an incident management team accustomed to robbing human resources from shot crews, coupled with intra-crew problems of leadership (hated Marsh/loved Steed), on a fire that was managed as a fuel reduction exercise instead of aggressive (keep it small) initial attack, with dozens of firefighters in positions of authority on the fireline trying to run their own show like they do back home as battalion chiefs……….
Do I need to go on?
THIS is the deadly recipe for disaster present at the Yarnell Hill fire. A few folks with prior military service can’t possibly kill firefighters like WE can. Thats the elephant in the room, friend.
Woodsman
Correction:
I said:
“On top of this, you have a crew fielded by a city fire department, led by someone absolutely out to prove they had a better, more capable crew than anyone else (who was knowingly put it that position after he’d been fired from the USFS, not out there competing against them)”
NOW. Now out there competing against them.
Marsh was competing against the people and organization who let him go. This contributed to his one-upsmanship and the chip on his shoulder.
Woodsman,
WTF over? Fired up or what in quasi-attack mode against a fellow Truth Teller ? !
You posted: “Because of his Marine Corps influence? Bullshit. It was because of his ‘Don’t fucking trigger the crazy guy in charge, who’s on the way out and if I play my cards right I’ll be in charge & we can have some sanity around here for a change, ‘influence.”
Kind of unsure what you’re getting at there. The crazy guy in charge needed no triggers to set him off. Surely, Steed knew that he was the stabilizing force and that his ultimate responsibility as a supervisor was the safety and welfare of his men, no matter what.
Yet, please recall that he set the stage that morning by telling those two former Doce Fire supervisors he worked with that ” Marsh is gonna get us all killed ” when they asked him how it was going, as they met up as the GMHS was released from the Doce Fire and reassigned to the YH Fire.
That’s almost a self fulfilling prophecy given the fatal outcome that day.
And for him to make the statement to Marsh “you really f**ked us this time” seems odd because it was Steed that was in charge of those men that afternoon. Marsh was the DIVS A and never really relinquished control over the GMHS during that afternoon.
And for him to say that suggests that he failed in his ultimate responsibility as a supervisor. Nobody held a literal or figurative gun to these men’s heads that day. Nobody “forced” them to do what they did.
Yet, Steed’s assertion means that he ceded Marsh the power to override his good judgement; those numerous other times on other fires.
“Oh, and McDonough killed his own crew helping set the fire in the Shrine corridor, so he, or somebody, thought it would a good idea to hire his own attorney.” Having a difficult time accepting this one. Where is your proof?
“Refute that.” And to this, I say prove it. It’s not up to me to refute it.
You seem to almost always want other’s to share their YH Fire and GMHS evidences and sources yet fail to do so yourself.
Oh yeah…well I really like what both of you wrote! Once again after a hiatus, we have made some more steps forward and I’m using things both of you wrote in what will surely be the greatest tome ever written about wildland firefightin’ in general and shots specifically. In part, thanks to you two knuckleheads…so please keep up the good, no, great work!
Woodsman,
You posted this: “On top of this, you have a crew fielded by a city fire department, led by someone absolutely out to prove they had a better, more capable crew than anyone else (who was knowingly put it that position after he’d been fired from the USFS, not out there competing against them), …”
I think that was the one that convinced me.
And forever, still holding firm on the Marine Corps influence to follow orders
Whew–more good posts on the Yarnell killing. WTKTT–do your have a fix on exactly where Donut was picked up? I had thought it was on the two track about a hundred yards south of the Boulder outcrop where he was acting as lookout. I doubt he could have had time to do a burn out but his lawyering up and refusal to answer questions made him look suspicious and possibly doing such thing as a burn out. He was said to be excited the first time he was allowed to do a burn so it seems he was quite responsive to making fires.
His testimony is so screwed up where at one point someone had posted that one of his speeches mentioned how they were escaping with fire and embers crossing the road in front of them on their way out on the Sesame dirt trail.
Is there a point where Brian Frisby will tell the truth–his testimony would be dependable–the crap out of Donut is so unreliable that it only confuses.
Why the system is broken and why it is only a few that dare to attempt the fix:
From a David Icke Book: “You have to get up at a certain time because you have to report for work and you can’t be late. You go where your bosses tell you to go and you do what they say. If you rebel you get fired and if you don’t get paid you can’t afford a home or enough to eat. And it’s not only you. What about your family and others dependent upon you? If you don/\’t serve the system what are the consequences for them? To meet all these perceived needs and responsibilities, you have to spend every day keeping other people happy. In turn, the bosses are also slavishly following the impositions of those who control them and they dare not step out of line either. Bosses have bosses, too.”
“The dissenter is every human being at those moments of his life when he resigns momentarily from the herd and thinks for himself.” Archibald Maclieish
Great Spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter can not understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligenc. Albert Einstein
All Truths are easy to understand once they are discovered; the point is to discover them. Galileo
These quotes describe the people I envision on Investigative Media. Fearless at their work and fearless at getting to the truth. The only fear is in those who do not want the truth discovered. Lawyers or prayers will not save them from their fear–only the truth can dissolve that.
Sonny,
EXCELLENT!
Thanks for posting these
Reply to charlie post on
March 16, 2020 at 5:36 pm
>> charlie said…
>>
>> WTKTT–do your have a fix on exactly where
>> Donut was picked up? I had thought it was
>> on the two track about a hundred yards south
>> of the Boulder outcrop where he was acting
>> as lookout.
You are exactly right.
According to his own testimony… it took McDonough only about 3 minutes to walk down from his lookout spot and emerge on the two-track road right where that ‘T’ intersection was.
The spot where you can then either head towards the old-grader, or keep going on the two-track on up towards the Weavers.
Brendan was only standing there at that ‘T’ intersection for a minute or two before Frisby suddenly ‘appeared’ and stopped right there to pick him up.
>> charlie also said…
>>
>> I doubt he could have had time to do a burn out
Even if Brendan had a drip-torch with him in his pack ( there is no evidence he did )… there was never any TIME for Brendan to start any ‘burnouts’ there in that location before Frisby appeared there driving the Blue Ridge Polaris Ranger.
>> charlie also said…
>>
>> but his lawyering up and refusal to answer questions
>> made him look suspicious and possibly doing such
>> thing as a burn out.
The current evidence record indicates it is HIGHLY UNLIKELY that Brendan McDonough ever had a chance to have anything to do with any manul burnouts from the time he was ‘rescued’ by Frisby to the time he ended up in the Ranch House Restaurant parking lot with everyone else.
>> charlie also said…
>>
>> His testimony is so screwed up where at one point
>> someone had posted that one of his speeches
>> mentioned how they were escaping with fire
>> and embers crossing the road in front of them
>> on their way out on the Sesame dirt trail.
Brendan NEVER testified ( to the SAIT or ADOSH or anyone else ) that there were “embers crossing the road” as he and Frisby drove from the old grader area back east to the Sesame clearing area.
It was only during one of his paid speeches ( in Memphis ) where Brendan suddenly started slinging some bullshit about there being “embers crossing the road”.
It really just appears that the more Brendan “tells the story”… the more he twists his “versions” to try and match the FICTION that was depicted in the MOVIE.
The MOVIE made it look like Brendan and Frisby were almost roasted alive as they evacuated the area.
That has always been horseshit… but Brendan keeps trying to make his public story telling ‘match’ the movie.
Brendan has told so many different stories now ( just to please whatever audience he’s talking to ) that I’m not sure even he remembers what the reality was.
WTKTT,
Brendan NEVER testified ( to the SAIT or ADOSH or anyone else ) that there were “embers crossing the road” as he and Frisby drove from the old grader area back east to the Sesame clearing area.
It was only during one of his paid speeches ( in Memphis ) where Brendan suddenly started slinging some bullshit about there being “embers crossing the road”.
It really just appears that the more Brendan “tells the story”… the more he twists his “versions” to try and match the FICTION that was depicted in the MOVIE.
The MOVIE made it look like Brendan and Frisby were almost roasted alive as they evacuated the area.
That has always been horseshit… but Brendan keeps trying to make his public story telling ‘match’ the movie.
Brendan has told so many different stories now ( just to please whatever audience he’s talking to ) that I’m not sure even he remembers what the reality was.
Thank you for posting this about the consummate storyteller, the GMHS alleged “lookout” McDid-Not.
I have been saying this for years, especially the part about about him being unsure of what really happened that day and what reality is. It changes every time.
Joy,
I’m starting to get skert…just a little bit. Please tell me that everything is going to okay and that the lights aren’t going to go out before this is over…and mean it.
need to emphasize the wrongness of ?
My gosh…skert?
Cool word.
Today was my last day training because they just cancelled Nevada and California due to coronavirus…just finished Prescott Arizona Academy.
My health is not up to par Gary
In recent doctor visit the manipulation done to me I learned stuff that I keep denying
Yet I have to make some serious choices
Hard ones
Am I ok?
No. Not ok.
I lost so many people
There is a lot I would say in person because I learned today certain folks are wanting bad for me
???
I have brought back the HURT FEELINGS form for the fire industry because it seems I hurt some because I got a guy who knew a guy for decades who thanked me for my purity and said what records I needed to pull and I do on his best friend and then his best friend is taking it personal I pulled them and I get it but I have to fact check and verify…I have a duty to do that…it is important.
Gary, I can speak and write for the moment…and do my doctors…and wanting to let you know I am not okay…pray for a first hand YHF FF as he had a heart attack this week and for me to see him with his kids…made me so happy…those kids are amazing.
I love your inquiry to me
I am in travel mode.
You made me feel I matter 🤭
That is the plan–get scared. The Israelies per coincidence had chosen the Corona Virus to develope a vaccine for –before the virus was known to be so viral. They say they expect to have it going in a few weeks–Big Pharma is going to be where you should place your bets–they have miraculously worked on getting out a solution here and it will come about just about the right timing.
This is a test run to see how to manage people by the enforcement of the vaccines and quarantines to a point that people are willing to give up their freedoms to follow the WHO. Facebook Zuckerman says he will allow free advertisments by WHO and will redact any posts that argue against the WHO activities or speak toward conspiratorial ideas. Bill Gates is behind everyone getting vaccinated, and with people scared, they will fall in line for the vaccine or perhaps be jailed for not.
The government is planning to enforce vaccinations if you fly–they don’t have enough bullshit making old people take off their shoes and being xrayed full body as the security looks at people in full nude.
Well I hope the Israelies have better chemicals in their vaccines than they have in their retardant.
This is a disease designed to kill the elderly. As Henry Kissenger said the elderly are useless eaters–but he is not the only one that feels that way despite he being somewhat elderly himself–he is not an eater–he is a leader and great among men–at least in his eyes. I have to have a brain and believe that the Israeli and others had a vaccine from the get go on this one. This test is a harbinger for more to come–but it is also a method to limit and practice the controls that the cabal wants in place.
Global pandemics require global cooperation–and brings this world closer to the Bush, Obama, Clinton and the 1% cabal that the politicos associates with plan for
the One World Government. It also gets rid of a number of the “useless eaters” so that the Nazi ideal of a superior race is right in line. Remember it was not only Jews that were exterminated by the millions, but many millions of non jews as well. You needed the blood line to be favored.
I am not at all in panic about this–but certainly will do my part to avoid the crowds–I am not buying any more toilet paper than usual or food reserves–I might be eating jack rabbit but that is likely healthier than the tainted meat products at the market.
I was quite suspicious when I saw so many Iranians coming down–especially those in offices. But it looks like that our own politicians are getting bitten by the bug and it also looks like most of them are surviving like they would the flu. But then since the Media is owned by the Corporate giants–the news will be hard to come by for facts.
When a few like Zuckerman can take away your right to express your opinion, then we have become dunces at the whim of a few. You better not express your opinion or if you do it will not be allowed. I can tell you I won’t be the first one to run out and get vaccinated. I will just depend upon my barley grass powder, spirulina, acai berry powder and some good old spuds and pinto beans with jalapeno. They might kill most but for me they will likely help.
So I don’t do face book–but feel for those that do and might have a second opinion.
Forget that guy, I am going to be using all of my influence with God to focus on your health and what’s best for YOU, because I have to prioritize.
And yes…I am skert, 😱.because you know it won’t take much to empty the store shelves in this country and then things will get real Western…real fast.
And yes…that’s how cracker hillbillies from Prescott talk. And now that I have completely reverted back to my Happy Place working for my beloved U.S. Forest Service as a 462, (GS-0462, Forestry Technician) that’s how I talk sometimes again.
Congratulations on finishing your coursework, but I’m sorry they cancelled the other classes.
We (everyone) on IM will be praying for you because all of us love you, I love you. Well HAL 9000 won’t pray for you because he is AI…but I’m sure he will transmit a message to his creator on his home planet and put in a good word for you. We are like a family here, a virtual and very dysfunctional family, but a family nevertheless.
I just hope either you or Sonny will help take care of me if things go sideways much worse than they are now. Medical problems or not, we all know you are tougher (and a better shot, with better calibers, like your Serbian military round) than I am. Maybe Sonny will hunt rabbits 🐇 for me to eat with the rest of the boys? I don’t like to miss meals. So…
Oh…and one more thing. Just because I am paranoid…disentangle mean they aren’t out to get me, or you. So…let’s be careful out there.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FkbBfqA6-4Y
Damn auto spell!
“Oh…and one more thing. Just because I’m paranoid…doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me…or you. So…let’s be careful out there.“
Because I don’t like to miss meals is why Fred told me I will have to wait until he contracts with Omar the Tentmaker before he can send me a Genghis Khan Hotshot…”Cut Line Or Die” T-Shirt that fits me.
And no…I don’t know why Fred is so cruel to me other than we hurt the ones we love? Fred knows how fragile and vulnerable I am and yet….
But then again, Fred wrote yeas ago that he never would have hired me as a hotshot because I look like I eat too much and drink too much water. I’m sure glad I asked Hub Harris if I could be a hotshot and not Fred.
You bet Gary–we will hunt the jack rabbits out of my pickup and with the rains there will soon be plenty. I don’t plan on going down with the corona virus–I really do think the new world Corporate and Banking interests are taking the scientific opinions of a necessary population reduction seriously.
Sorry to hear about your health –there are too many secrets even in the retardant that contains up to 15% hidden chemical ingredients. Since these retardants are exported out of Israel that is mainly desert region–what do they put in their secret ingredient mix. A google search will tell you the Bromine has long been a fire retardant ingredient and also a good rat poison. Is this part of the secret ingredients?
Well Bloomberg, one of the richest men on earth is buying the Presidency–although Trump being a billionaire and as big a bullshitter as Bloomberg will make a run at it. They are both in line with Israel, Bloomberg the most. So we will be expecting plenty of Israeli retardant and now that they have the vaccine for the corona virus in line, we will be getting our shots. Hell I say we, I don’t take vaccinations although I am sure when I was out on the heart attacks and on the dog shooting I got a bunch.
A French study on vaccines had plenty of people coming down after taking them due to the Aluminum content and even Mercury in many instances. There is a full documentary on that on Tubi–but of course the information was never released on mainstream media.
Pharma is big business–unimaginable the money they have and therefore the controls they exert over media and politicians. When I took certain medications I got sick and when I told the Doctor he said well you have to suffer the side effects to get the benefits. Shit, like falling down on the floor puking? So I found that too many doctors just throw out a pill and you can later sue the Pharma among the many ads on TV. The testing industry on pills is done by the Pharma companies themselves–the Feds look at their tests and if they look good, which they always will, then the pill is OK’d. So it ends up being who do you trust? Well, best to do your own research there–I have the opinion that you can not trust an industry that is making billions on pills and using its own tests to prove their value.
If you check out the Monsanto history, one of the most well known chemical industries you will find their history full of criminal acts disregarding the lives of people and causing death and illness among so many while even haviing the knowledge of what they were doing. Big Pharma is right along that line and in some cases knew they were killing people and still selling the drugs for decades as their court cases were being fought and denials made in court–even when they knew their drugs were creating havoc. Look at the English cases, Thalidomide and birth control and other meds as well as the many cases we have had and are even having today. They do not pull these drugs until they absolutely have to and it looks like the collateral damage to their business accounts is getting too big. They expect to spend some millions as part of the business practice–but their real care for the people they harm is nil. Corporations have no conscience and many of those that by hook and crook became the corporate elite are in the same category.
These are my opinions and if you think these Corporate assholes are as innocent as Choir boys, then I am happy for you. America is still somewhat free so we can somewhat voice our opinions without being incarcerated. However, if you are an active federal worker, especially under Trump, or in the Wild Land Fire Fighting community, you best be low key–some ass will not like your opinion and work to destroy your career or disparage your character since this is the defense if your statements have merit. This is the same of it all, since a system that does not allow freedom of expression becomes a stale tyrannical system that will be designs of a few.
It is a shame the programming that goes on–but the designs are to keep it that way as we see in the case of Yarnell and the case of the many wild land fire fighters that are now retired and suffering the effects of their involvement with chemicals mixed with the smoke. Add the stress of the job and you have one killer occupation where the men and women that endure these obscenities to health and well being are convinced otherwise. Never mind the Corporate entities enjoy the profits in the billions from their poisons–they damn sure will do everything possible to keep the propaganda flow going so they do not pay for the damages these fire fighters suffer and they certainly will continue to keep secret ingredients flowing and tell people these phosphates and nitrates are a safe thing to life. Hell I lol on that one when just less than 1% of their poison in water will kill every fish exposed to it.
So how do you repay a person whose health is destroyed by the chemicals. Money is not enough and health care is not enough but by all means both should be provided to those affected. The right thing to do is to stop the pollution to health and the environment. This retardant business is a horror if the facts are made available and not hidden.
Joy–also sorry to hear about your health issues. Few people know as I do the situations you have endured in life–few would survive those as you have. I know you practice some good measures to keep your health up and only a strong constitution and self worth has kept you in the world and you have more things to accomplish.
You know better than I the remedies to keep on keeping on. I might have to cook up a pot of pintos and add some jalapeno and garlic to get myself moving–always a good remedy. Potatoes are good–I have been roasting them in a stainless skillet covered and with little finger thickness of water in the skillet. Some garlic salt and coconut oil for butter suits my fancy. Still doing coffee here and there, but some teas, spirulina and barley grass and even acai berry. I need to order some more Gogi powder–I like that stuff. I just had to write this to remind me of how you do things.
Good Health to you. See you when I see you.
Thank you Sonny! I know I have a place to run to now if things get real Western!
You bet you are welcome Gary–Four Acres here and I only need a quarter acre. So pitch your Genghis Khan Yurt or tent or your Apache Mobile and hook up to the lights–Only thing you might need ear muffs or a sound proof mobile. This I-10 never quits and even with my bad hearing it is nasty. I have gotten some used to it but never 100%–the quiet of the distant desert is best.
Yes, good to get a few doctor opinions since they will likely be varied. I think some of these veterinarians might be better. I have been before diagnosed with the flue to break out in measles And I went into the VA at Prescott and did see two cardiologists while complaining with chest pains. They prescribed something but I fell dead in their parking lot before I had a chance to try it out. The VA there does not do heart surgery so they had to haul me across town to the one that does–but I was out so only knew that later.
When I went to Tucson after that ordeal and a couple of heart stints complaining of bad chest pains, I was told you better get some more stents immediately. They introduced me to a 5 star doctor but I did not trust him so I went home–Joy was with me on that one–I called and scheduled a different doctor for a couple more stents. Maybe I could have died, but I had a doctor with that kind of attitude that cut a cancer out of me and I thought he was going to cut my throat instead.
This local cardiologist I had seen about a year ago. . I did not like his attitude and found that he had his license revoked in Texas–maybe he had too bad of a patient survival record. Here is luck of the draw, some time later I was in such chest pain that I staggered into the Mountain View Hospital. Because my son is a long time RN, I asked him who to get as a cardiologist. But since it was an emergency and I was in terrible pain you have to know who showed up instead of the one I asked for.
This guy insisted on going through my wrist with his catheter when I told him doctors before could not do it since the veins and arteries are in my body such that it can not be done without puncturing one. Well he tried anyway and so had to back out and go thought the leg. Then there he did not give me enough pain medication so I would up feeling that damn catheter even in my heart. Ouch when I still think about it. I say this because a bat hide in medicine might be something bought in the Bahamas for 20 or 30 grand.
My brother was a home taught veterinarian–he did his own dog castrations–but only about half of them survived. If I ever learned something from him it was don’t let him work on your animals.
Thank you. That is a lot of good advice Sonny, but I think the bottom line is that you are like a Timex watch…you can take a lickin’ and keep on tickin’!
That…and be sure to keep an eye on Charlie just in case he starts playing with a gun again.
Sonny,
Actually, I’m packin’ up again and gettin’ ready to relocate to find some new doctors since I don’t like what the doctors here told me. Anyway…I found a photo while throwing more “stuff” away and I’m goin’ to take it over to Walgreens in the next couple of days to digitize it so I can post it on my website (that I still haven’t fixed and put back up) for you Sonny…because I’m pretty sure you will get a chuckle, or at least a smile when you see it because it will bring back memories.
Speaking of doctors, one of my friends was a doctor–Dr. Mike–dermatologist–someone to be a friend with in my case. He died a young 45 –lung cancer–he was a chain smoker.
He told me how he got through Med school–It was party time all the way — but he was one of those people kind of like Joy–a photographic memory and he did not need the study. In my case I would always have to labor long hours to get my A. But some are just naturals and can party and still do A work.
Still I don’t think I would want him doing anything beyond using the nitrogen bottle–those days these skin cancers could be taken off by freezing.
You would have thought even 40 years ago a doctor would have known better than to smoke. But in all fairness–try to get a doctor when he is fresh–you will have a better chance of getting the right diagnosis and prognosis.
Of course you always used to be able to tell who was from Prescott and who wasn’t by the way they pronounced Prescott. Although since I grew up there, there has been so many people move to town that doesn’t work anymore because outsiders have learned how to pronounce Prescott so that it rhymes with “biscuit” and not “mascot.” Prescuit made one of the top 10 retirement towns for the last 40 plus years in a row. When I grew up there, the only fast food place in town was Jim Dandy’s Hotdog Stand. And that is why the town is now so @#$&*% up. There are just to damn many old people in town who think the world owes them something. That’s why they thought they could get a Type 1, best of the best, front line and elite fire hand crew for pennies on the dollar and when they found out it was going to actually cost pennies on the dollar instead on being completely free (“revenue neutral” to use the parlance of bean counters) the cheap old bastards put the crew on the fiscal chopping block and caused Willis to put enough pressure on Marsh he cracked because you know…Marsh was a very deeply flawed person. Not to mention a fraud, a phony and a charlatan (representing yourself as a recovered alcoholic who was drinking on the night of June 29, 2013, makes you those things) who undertook ever increasingly dangerous antics and stunts at a higher frequency rate to sell what was an above average hotshot crew (because they had few to no hiring restrictions since they had a clueless city personnel office) as the ultimate hotshot crew in order to compensate for his own deep insecurities and troubled work history that culminated on his taking a crew who was mostly shit faced drunk to a nasty bitch (non gender specific) of a wildfire. So…you know, @#$& you Willis. The IC and Willis get a pass from me for being guilty of Manslaughter 2, but I say guilty as charged for running one @#$&*% up train wreck meets dumpster fire of a @#$& show called the Yarnell Hill Fire. Whoops…I’m in another bitchy (non gender specific) mood.
Correction & clarification;
And of course there was the Dairy Queen and the A&W until I was in junior college, but you know me, I just bought chocolate shakes at the Dairy Queen and root beer floats at the A&W.
And not all old people are bad, cause I r one, but I still have an anger management problem with the primary voters in Prescott who caused the city council to put the squeeze on the PFD because the crew wasn’t revenue neutral.
Hotshot crews are expensive in life because those crews are made up of almost nothing but people and I think in general, people are always the most expensive cost to any business? As you probably know by now, hotshot crews don’t utilize very much technology even today except for power saws.
If I would have been runnin’ that operation, I would have invested in small 4×4 engines that were called Model 20’s back in my day. I also hear them referred to as “brush engines.”
But…that isn’t we’re the braggin’ rights are in the WF culture, those come with hotshot crews for the most part or historically with smokejumpers to the general public. But definitely not with the small engines, the big Model 70’s…a little bit more so because they look so impressive. But…as usual that’s just IMHO, so…
.
Hotshot crews are expensive in life and for the city of Prescott, theirs is very expensive in death.
Gary, Serbian military round?
Where you been?
It is a popular American round, sir.
Oh…I’m sorry. I thought was just being used by Serbian Army. You know me and bullets, there are only three (3) kinds of cartridges, the 5.56x45mm NATO, the 40 S&W, and the big ones that really go bang💥 in pump action shotguns, but I don’t like to shoot that gun. And now that I am in retirement and only like to carry baby guns for the most part that fire the the 9×19mm Parabellum.
It’s this one..right?
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2017/11/22/first-military-6-5-grendel-rifle-zastava-m17-ak-dmr-revealed-serbian-army/
The Gods are out tonight–Too bad you are not here to photograph them Joy. They are very close by less than ten miles and maybe 10-20 thousand feet above earth. I just looked out–they have moved in the last half hour only about 30 miles to the west–an unusual location for them–they usually stay more to the south. I did get a few pnotos with the 40x cannon and will download them to computer later. These aliens hang around here so much its pitiful. What is so interesting here–but if I were an alien, I would likely find the earth quite interesting and the people here quite dangerous–especially if they look anything like the reptilians or even the greys we see depicted.
It is amazing how the Bilble carries on about the reptile speaking to Adam and Eve. But then the clay tablets that predate the Bible some 1500years or better have the similar story of reptile beings and through out time people have worshiper the Dragon and reptiles in various forms.
Something that favors the clay tablets is their earlier history and cuneiform writings written in clay. Those can not change and there is only one version forever written permanently. The clay tablet version of the flood, also of the Woman and Child are revamped to a fair degree in the Old Testament, but the similarities of the Old Testament version tell us that they were a later form of the clay tablet versions that have been unearthed in the Iraqui Mesopotamian region. That region also is where the garden of Eden was located, likely somewhere between the Tigris and Euphates Rivers. It is where the supposed cave man suddenly invented agriculture, had laws and lawyers, had mathematics and even knowledge of astronomy that we only discovered a hindered years ago. In fact they knew of 9 planets and two with water that we only later verified. Uranus and Neptune–something our space fly bys have proven true. They also talked about the Woman Goddess screwing around with 23 Pairs of Chromosomes–where in sense there should be 24.
Scientists have noted chimps have only 300 defects in DNA were humans have over 4000–some believe this is a clear indication that someone was screwing around with DNA long before we started it since the discovery of DNA. They too talk about the strange creatures such as men with horse feet or four legged animals with human heads. And if you reason the Bilble had carried down stories of a talking snake then you could see it is easily possible.
I do know we are programmed by the age of 12 by your family, peers and society. Indeed we are generally non thinking robots programmed by societal rules–even our book learning is a program set up by those that control education. You likely do not believe that Columbus discovered America but you probably thought that and were taught that if your are my age. That is just one of the bull shit lies we got programmed with though early education–religion of various forms is the worse of it all–since we ought to know better that a god would curse woman hood because she convinced Adam to eat of the tree of knowledge. What kind of God would want you to live out your life as a fool. Reminds me of the Willis idea–well that is what God wanted–he had other plans for the GMHS. Shit–if God wants you to stay stupid and ignorant and you believe that then you deserve to continue as a slave and subject to these Blue Bloods that run the world.
Strangely they are called Blue Bloods because at one time their blood did run blue. Does that mean they were actually hybrids and the Bible story of Angels having intercourse with human females created the men and giants of renown–the ancient king bloodlines that continue to this day? Of course since these bloodlines have done so much inbreeding they suffer from various defects although they still have the Blue Blood lineage.
It is said in the clay tablets that these aliens lived up to about 480,000 years, except on earth their lives were shortened somewhat. The pure alien blood that ruled before the flood had kings ruling for 30 thousand years or more. So life on earth had a toll on their longevity. I wonder since blue blood in humans is a condition caused by lack of oxygen, could these blue bloods live without oxygen? And does it matter that the earth is being depleted of oxygen so that life would be more comfortable for a reptilian–even increase his life span?
One thing I see is that these reptilian god like creatures are an ugly bunch and scary too. That geologist Phil Schneider claims he killed two in the depths of the Dulce underground military base not two awfully far from here. His story is quite intriguing considering that his Dad was a full fledged Nazi brought here under the secret project paper clip operation. His Dad was also a master machinist–one to have much to do with designing nuclear submarines for our Naval program. Phil had an IQ in the 165 range–so he was no dummy and I would wonder why he would make up stories–to listen to him I saw no deception in his films like I saw in the Bradley and Willis talks and even Bush when he talked about Iraq and the Twin Towers ordeal.
One thing this Phil Schneider person was not one you would be able to bull shit or coerce and with a menses IQ he had the smarts to present well. He also wound up dead choked by his own catheter tube–a questionable suicide since he was in a wheel chair and put out of commission by age 47. Did he know too much–and he claimed his best friend was also a murder suicide–another statistic talking too much.
You have to be on the inside to get into big trouble with the powers that be. They tolerate the odd ball like the alien believers because they have made them to be a laughing stock. Any pilot that saw anything knew better than to report it. His license and job would be immediately questioned and more than a few were warned and some even removed from their jobs for going public.
So this is a big world–we are all subjects of reptilian brains and even affected to various degrees ourselves–that part that creates fear and malaise and even makes humanity kill other humans, the wars, the mayhem and destructive forces humanity is so full of. Yet will we will do our best at getting truth and justice out? If the Yarnell killing of 19 is any indication, there are few willing to step out against the forces of evil. It is after all a long and arduous effort fraught with danger–and we may not even in this life time see the full truth told. Still, we will not go down with bad conscience for our good intentions and efforts.
And that of course is because only one person had the absolute AUTHORITY and corresponding RESPONSIBILITY to order that hotshot crew out of the safe black and down the Death Chute and that was their crew boss. And I understate that technically Eric Marsh was Division Alpha and Jesse Steed was Acting Crew Boss, but I have articulated many times that I don’t believe Marsh ever surrendered or ceded actual control of the GMIHC to Steed. So in my world…Steed gets a pass because as Marsh’s assistant, he met his responsibility by refusing the order three times and articulating his reasons. Even though in the end Steed did what hotshots do and the hotshot culture and ethos demanded of him, he reluctantly led his crew in a fatal search for Easter Eggs. Even if the Incident Commander was recorded on an audio tape ordering the crew to their deaths, I would give him a pass as well in terms of criminal negligence, or even moral or ethical responsibility.
Whoops, I met to post this on my comment below.
Good points, Gary.
Kind of off your topic but something that has been knawing at me:
Imagine for a moment if somehow McDonough played a role in setting the fire in the Shrine corridor that contributed to the death of his own crew. It would shed light on the refusal to provide certified testimony. It would help explain why he “lawyered up.” Maybe this is the information he confronted Willis with who in turn brought it to the city attorney? Maybe there was much more to the story than an account of the argument between Steed and Marsh about moving the crew?
And before anyone flies off the handle at my imagineered scenario thinking it’s totally off the charts, I should remind you that I, Woodsman, imagineered (based on my experience and logical plausibility) the firing operation catching the crew and contributing to their deaths over 6 years ago…and look where we are now – it happened.
Think about THAT.
Am I the only person who thinks it’s odd that the sole surviving crew member of GMIHC retained the services of his own attorney following the tragic death of his crew? Why did he do that? Is there something that occurred that he would require specialized legal representation for?
Was the legal representation in order to secure his rights concerning self incrimination?
I watch “Dateline’ all of the time and even though people are supposed to “lawyer up”, in real life…it’s almost alway the guilty people who do lawyer up. I can’t imagine hiring a lawyer (even a pro bono one) if I had ever been In McDonough’s situation. And at this point, nothing would surprise me. I never thought we would be here almost seven years later still trying to figure out what happened in the biggest blunder in WF history.
And what happened to Joy and RTS anyway…Corona virus get them? And why do this call it a Corona virus anyway?Like Joy wrote, that should just be a beer that uses smokejumpers as the ultimate wildland firefighters in their commercials. I just wish I had the same PR agent as smokejumpers do and I would be somebody by now.
I mean…think about it. “My entire crew just got killed in an accident, I had better hire a shit bag lawyer.” WTF…Over? It’s not like, my wife and I got in a huge fight last night while we were alone and she ended up dead on the garage floor with, “Gary killed me”, written in her blood 🩸 and her car keys clutched in her hand with a bloody finger she used to write with,
I can’t even get either Joy or Fred to fight with me. WTF…Over?
Wait…I think I messed that one up as well because I think it’s Modelo Beer that uses smokejumpers in one of their ads.
Gary you add fuel to the fire that Woodman had struck a match to. The things you and Woodsman posit are worth thought. As you say, it does not make sense that Donut would hire a lawyer unless he is guilty of something. We already know he is guilty of lies and holding back information pertinent to the deaths of the GMHS crew–but what else is he guilty of? Maybe he did have something to do with setting burns–it would be a strange turn of events if he did turn out to have been a part of starting burns.
However, it does seem that Brian Frisby testified that he picked up Donut. It would be proper for Brian to tell us what Donut was doing when he picked him up since as far as I know nothing has been added to the fact that Brian got him out just in the nick of time to save his life.
These damn mum orders and secrecy, lawyering up and so forth does leave suspicion on the whole of these peop[e.
Consider that Donut was two canyons over and completely out of sight of the GMHS crew and on his own. There was lots of time on his hands and it is only about 100 yards from his lookout point to the dirt Sesame Street road that leads out toward where their equipment was stationed and that area was a possible burn area using the road as a retreat toward his equipment. I do not know who else was up that dirt road beside Frisby and Donut but it was easily transversed even to Donut’s spot by vehicle and engines.
I had walked that area many times so I know exactly where the spot he was and how quickly and easily he could walk to the Sesame Street dirt road. From his perch on the rocks the area was not like the choke full canyon the GMHS crew dropped into. In fact he on double time could get to that road in less than 20 seconds.
Do you know how long he was in that area after the GMHS crew decided to go south on the two track? After they left he had no reason at all to hang there on those rocks watching the fire headed NE. So maybe he stayed there and maybe he did not. The information I have was he had been picked up on the Sesame Dirt road.
When and what was he doing are the big questions. Maybe he really does need an attorney.
Joy has interviewed him–does not mean he would tell anything truthful. But what are your impressions Joy?
Should add exactly where was he picked up and I would hope someone that would waste their time to go to one of his speeches ask him why he felt he needed to lawyer up.
Thanks Woodsman–I had not thought of the possibility of Donut as part of a burn operation in that area. But you point out that he lawyered up and had refused to give testimony that would be crucial to understanding the deaths of his fellow fire fighters. Those facts alone put heavy suspicion upon him–a culprit in anyone’s book who would withhold information so vital to the understanding of why the men are dead. He ought to go down in infamy for his actions–instead has ridden the sympathy trail and even paid as a speaker–a half truth speaker at that. He certainly knows more than he tells–a liar by omission and commission.
I have to say Gary must be right about Steed–Joy and I observed Marsh–He definitely was in charge up there and we know that Steed argued to not take the death trap. He had to have known it was a high risk situation that should not have been done and was under strict orders and pressure to comply to Eric Marsh’s direct orders to attempt the Ranch.
However I would give Marsh some slack as well due to the chain of command. Someone was asking for his comfort zone which meant a higher authority wanted the crew down to the Ranch. The Helms after all are well healed with the government and doing as I understand about ten million a year in contracts for government special projects. That ranch as I understand has a machine shop as well–although the Helms operation is mostly done in Phoenix. Mr. Helms has quite a bit of clout and likely there was some urgency to protect that ranch. However, Helm’s had hired Leonard and some others that Joy can name to clear his property with a decent defensible space about two weeks before the fire. So, if the bosses thought it would be a place they needed to be, they were wrong.
Despite the defensible space there, the place got scorched and most likely would have burned to the ground had not Helms built it with a wild fire possibility in mind. I did not read the Helm’s book about surviving the fire but you can bet it was a nail biting affair even inside the fairly fail safe abode. The heat and smoke alone must have been in the danger zone–I know the tires were burned off old antique vehicles parked on in their defensible space.
Since 1996 the black opts projects have spent 8.6 trillion (not billion) dollars tax debt to keep your paycheck split down the middle with government and you looking for a second job. (not billion) . This money that can not be accounted for–what have they done with it? We know much of it has gone into secret projects that are deemed for national security. Many new inventions, especially war oriented are now available and being used–all the way from lasers to crow dispersion methods and computer and robot technology. A third of the war use aviation is operated unmanned–and our military can now take out people thousands of miles away with only the coordinates –and once the drone is there, the operator can even have a camera view of the ones killed. Some of the computer game buffs would do well at this job but more than a few suffer later after they question the purpose.
We do know that the UN has banned biological warfare. Right now the corona virus has killed into the thousands and will go to millions–mostly elderly–those that are the most expendable in the eyes of the eugenicists.
As that WHO scientist says, we can expect more pandemics in the future. But what I do not understand is why the people that invented this virus are not brought up for war crimes. They are no more innocent than were the Nazi’s hung after the Nuremberg trails.
Few people know about Project Paperclip that brought hundreds of Nazi scientists here to America to run our undercover operations–one being a Eric Taub.
From Wikipedia: Erich Traub (27 June 1906 – 18 May 1985) was a German veterinarian, scientist and virologist who specialized in foot-and-mouth disease, Rinderpest and Newcastle disease. Traub was a member of the National Socialist Motor Corps (NSKK), a Nazi motorist corps, from 1938 to 1942. He worked directly for Heinrich Himmler, head of the Schutzstaffel (SS), as the lab chief of the Nazis’ leading bio-weapons facility on Riems Island.[1]
Traub was rescued from the Soviet zone of Germany after World War II and taken to the United States in 1949 under the auspices of the United States government program Operation Paperclip, meant to exploit the post-war scientific knowledge in Germany, and deny it to the Soviet Union.[2]
Taub was put in charge of the Plum Island affair-he knew how to experiment on humans and had been well trained in the Nazi death camps on how to extinguish humanity. Some of the billions of those trillions had to go to Plum Island–moved after the lyme disease got out and horrendous looking creatures started washing up on the beaches off Plum Island.
So those scientists in Wuan, China are war criminals–they have designed a virus that is now killing thousands, yet the media has not said one thing about their murderous acts.. Instead these criminals are being treated much like what we saw at Yarnell–the excuse that this was not a leak from Wuan, if it is, it is an accident, no one is held accountable. Folks, these are outright murderers, criminals of the highest degree, just as the Nazi trained scientists at Plum Island whose Lyme Disease has sickened and killed thousands. These things are banned –yet they are let loose on our own people–and in the case of China on their people and the world.
I suppose it is the New World where criminals that work for governments get a pass. Why does the media give them a pass? Someone is controlling them or they would tell the truth about these virus situations.
I have to believe with the trillions missing that much has been spent on these killer diseases. By now the world governments and scientists must have plenty of strains of virus to knock out most of the world population. I am certain the WHO scientist is correct–these virus situations will occur in sequences with increased potency and deliberately, something I believe the China action was.
Well, Gary and I must take care–we both are among those that suffered chemicals over time and our lungs are taxed. This corona virus could easily murder us as it already has hundreds of Americans. It is now just a hundred and fifity miles north of my area–two towns away to the north are four confirmed cases–I saw a young woman in Wal Mart day before yesterday coughing without even putting her hand over her mouth. The local Mountain View hospital where I was going to have another hernia mesh installed now only allows two visitors per patient and hospital visitors are discouraged from even coming to the hospital. I think the virus is already in Las Cruces and they are not telling it.
Some doctors say the surgical masks are of little help–well maybe they are discouraging people from getting them since the hospitals are in very short supply. They say that the main way is getting near someone with the disease, and hand to mouth is the main way to get it. Clean your carts with alcohol and use the masks, lots of hand washing–what I think.
Sad to learn tha, my son’s cancer has moved to his lungs–the doctors say they can not understand why the cancer is moving so fast. He will be undergoing chemo now–well with these mass murderers amok and sanctioned, what chance has he or any of us in the elder years or the young with immune and lung issues.
Joy,
I wasn’t going to get this far down into the weeds about EN, but what the heck, I have some time on my hands. There is a second reason I wrote that she is a Bad Person, other than I am an admitted Recovering Reactionary. And that is that as time went by, I concluded that EN was either working for, or wanted to work for, Arizona State Forestry and Fire. And that is because no matter what the issue or the discussion was, EN repeatedly came down on the side that Eric Marsh didn’t do anything wrong and that what he did do, was forced on him by circumstances beyond his control. Her favorite reason why that Marsh was FORCED to move his crew off of the ridge because of the clear and present danger of lightning. There has never been any evidence that lightning was present and she always seemed to forget that every ridge has two sides and even if lightning was a danger, they could have dropped down the west side further into the safe black. Near the end of her participation here, I was even openly accusing here of having ulterior motives and either working for someone as an “undercover attorney”, although that could also have been the overwhelming majority of the “families” since at that time almost all of them were in strong DENIAL and supported what Marsh did. And I was far from being the only one who concluded the same thing about Nowicki. And I agree with Sonny, she was a high powered lawyer in terms of her intelligence, training and vocabulary, in addition to her ability to debate and how articulate she was. She was also very good at twisting words to mean anything she wanted them to mean…even for a highly skilled attorney. She routinely ate me up even though I knew how wrong her concepts were, she was a fierce opponent and out of my league to successfully argue with,, which is why I would have had to resorted to just throwing her off any bridge I was stuck on with her. She was sneaky, devious, ingenuous, and operated without a moral center…hence, I think she was a Bad Person. One problem both RTS and I have is that we were both Eagle Scouts and none of that training prepared us to deal with people like EN (or the BLM in my case and LeGarza and Dudley now) because we were taught there was right and wrong, good and bad, the world was black and white in terms of choices, but otherwise was full of color and right and wrong wasn’t conditional, negotiable, transactional, optional, or situational. We (or at least…I) know far better now…the world is nothing but shades of grey, but you can’t be willing to die on every hill because there are just to many of them and you have to learn to discriminate and choose between the shades of grey. So…
I have also noted that after arguing with me for years about Marsh’s culpability, or eligibility in being charged with Manslaughter 2 (because he lacked intent to kill) for his reckless actions and endangerment of his crew that any reasonable person should have concluded could very well result in their deaths, if he would have survived because you now write about that being one of your goals for someone although I don’t know who that could be?
I have to wonder if Marsh did have the intent to kill–perhaps it was a subconscious action, but none the less an intent. I say that because anytime you take a crew of men into brush that is almost impassable and in a canyon chute with no escape while at the same time watching a fire that even an army could not even slow, and with wind indications that it should be coming back at you at any moment with 40 mph winds–if not intent, then the highest degree of risking human lives under your command.
Elizabeth was not on the fire and as far as I know she never walked the trail of the GMHS crew–and until she goes with qualified men such as Gary, Woodsman, RTS, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam, Wayne, just to name a few men of integrity and long wild land fire fighting experience–then she would do well to review her statements and stand down. The McClean bunch, the Amanda group, the fellows that are trying to hide the truth and make a hero out of Marsh are depending upon the hope that all common sense can be refuted, all the facts can be hidden and people will believe the killing was nothing but a natural accident.
Anyone standing against the truth and portraying it as an accident will be complicit in future wild land fire deaths. Simple thought but true.
I forgot to add Donut there, being a liar about the Yarnell incident from the start, he deserves the highest honors among the Amanda, McClean, Holly, Willis, and those people hiding facts and attempting to have people believe this to be an accident or a God needed them thing. The rubbish people spread in order to hide truth is deplorable considering safety of the future wild land fire fighter safety will be compromised.
Joy,
https://www.adn.com/alaska-news/military/2020/03/01/elmendorf-richardson-airman-is-demoted-for-peeing-in-the-office-coffee-maker/
And you thought I was just being paranoid. Ha!
One thing about being a country bumpkin, you are one to easily take people at their word–a hand shake is good enough since we expect that people will be like us–our word is good as gold. Most people reared in the boon docks are that way–of course not always since there are some that join the bad side of life–maybe circustance, maybe bad upbringing or just bad attitudes. Perhaps bad DNA if that is possible and some think psychopaths are in that category.
But when it comes to politicians, we see all sorts of games–games that you need a degree in Psychology to even begin to understand. I have that but still am baffled at some of the games that people use in official positions.
Games of course involve deception, lies, trickery and are generally played by people that think they must get ahead by these methods. They see it in their peers and when looking at game players you only need to look at our political wonders to see the best at them. Those that head corporations fall right in line with them–power, money and influence are above their scruples in I would guess up to 90% or more in the top dogs that have control issues.
It follows that some of the worst criminals are found in these higher positions, yet they parade under a cloak and reverence that would make Jesus wonder. They are not reluctant to spread chemicals that result in thousands of death with illness and maiming of others. This is not imaginations. Cigarette companies are at the front because big media has gotten in there–yet look up the history of any Pharmaceutical Company, or any other big mining, oil or other industry. Profits are always first and life and environment generally not a consideration at all.
If you want to see some real killers look up the Bush and all his followers and their records of causing thousands of deaths of our youngest and finest young men–and their tally, just like the presidents before them runs into the millions of deaths. Most people are not deluded –they know it was oil interests and control issues these people had and that they manufactured ideas of how to go about protecting their own interest while making the public it was in our own interests.
These damn liars are so prevalent in our society these days and perhaps it is just human nature with them that they act like they represent the honest citizen, yet it takes no degree in psychology to see through their thin veil of lies. And for me I will not waste my time voting for one billionaire over the other–they all belong to the same club and it is truly only a contest between those two–not a contest that in any will will differ in any significant manner for the American Public. And if you disagree fine since maybe a trip to the voting booth will at least give you some physical exercise and maybe a bit of catharsis.
So how does this relate to the deaths of the GMHS crew? Very much I would say.,
There are enough managers that have power to control the system their way and as they want it to be seen–no reputation should be tainted and no matter how much at fault that person was they want this looking to be a clean heroic action. Anything else will tarnish the system. They do not realize that telling the truth and admitting to a screw up and moving to change things would be the ideal. Public is very forgiving, and to tell the true story at Yarnell would boost the confidence of the public in these public servants.
However, to the contrary, now that so much of the truth is already known and exposed, their reputations as truthful and trustworthy public servants is tarnished. The sad part is that most of these men are highly intelligent and experienced people –many that have done good works. But without public trust they should be removed from those positions where it is obvious they would continue to foster a lie. Young lives are just worth too much to allow the games to continue.
That reminds me of my former brother in law Mike Johnson–Mike was a damn good Mexican cowboy that worked on a Hachita, NM ranch for a number of years before taking up a job as a truck driver. During round up, there are quite a few cowboys in the bunk that usually only has two or three regulars.
The bar is only about ten miles from that particular ranch–and I know the bar, definitely a cowboy bar–others enter at their own risk. So that particular night several of the fellows got tanked up for the next day round up.
In this case one of them woke up the next morning and pulled his boot on to find someone had pissed in it. No court martial on that one since no one would own up to it. But Mike said there was one pissed cowboy and the wranglers were having a hard time holding their laughter in.
I made my visit to El Paso today and went so fast I do believe I met myself coming back. I am not one to hang around–but the return trip was telling for me. I took a couple photos through the windshield with my cell phone, then at home pulled out that camera and took some more.
In these photos are four jets running parallel and spreading their aluminum powders in abundance. Crossing their path and perpendicular are more jets spewing the same. I have to believe Mexico does not mind since the jets headed south must have crossed the international border. In the photo are layered clouds that are obviously made by these passes. All this is high altitude–and you have to know these are not commercial jets since commercial jets do not run parallel in groups of four.
Now you see why the aluminum levels are more than 4000 times normal on Mt. Rainier to where a mouse would die if it consumed the snow. This has been going on for over and we do know that Alzheimer is connected with elevated aluminum levels in the brain. We know that bromine and strontium are also a part of these sky dusting chemicals. Bromine is a useful rat poison and found to be a great retardant additive. So if you do not believe there are chem trails then you have not been watching the skies.
The Air Force denies the claims. Maybe they can get away with it but all you need do is look up and if you understand con trails and how they form and quickly disappear in dry air you will have to know these are chem trails. And likely the AF is telling the truth–probably the jets doing it are not manned by the Air Force–but they are certainly manned by someone–perhaps the Army or Navy since the big Fort Bliss Army Base is right in El Paso and extends north to Albuquerque
It is not a good thing they do, but what means do we have to stop it when it is another piss in the boot ordeal that no one will admit to. And the way Trump talks I even consider would he have a virus in these crop dusting affairs? Surely not, but seems there is plenty dislike for Juarez. Maybe some one just needs to say, Sonny–you are far fetched–these fellows would never even think about such things. Really? I hope not..
The cruise ship[ problem is reminding me of what my Dad went through as a young soldier volunteer going to was in late 1917. His ship was loaded with dead and dying before his journey across the seas ended. The captain had warned my Dad not to go get shots if he got sick–he said all the men that did were winding up dead. That captain had believed that the German decent doctors were purposely killing the men. Perhaps that flue was like this corona virus that does not affect the very young. My Dad was actually only 15 but had lied about his age in order to go over–he qualified and was a machine gunner during his tour –two men on the machine gun–he told me the barrels would turn almost red hot on that browning so they would have to change it.
The war was miserable and Dad said you had to watch your sleeping board–if someone grabbed it you would be sleeping directly in the mud–he said it rained just about every day so they were dealing with the mud and rain. Dad never spoke much about the war–I think his partner must have been quite young as well. I will never forget the thing he said about when they had opened up on the Germans in a cross fire–the Germans marching in unawares. He said his partner told him Henry, ” I’ve shit my pants”, just after they opened fire. He said ” what shall I do”? Dad said I told him take down your pants and wipe your ass. He did and they continued to cut down the trapped German company. Now I wish I had pressed him for more about the war but he was always the silent type and to get more than a few words out of him was difficult.
He did say along the last of the war they were taking captive very old and very young Germans–Germany had become desperate for men. I suppose he had felt pretty much older than his age–and I can understand that, I really think I could have gone to war at that age and been a good soldier–bringing in the camp meat at an early age makes for good training. He had left home and the 80 acre farm near Mt. Vernon, Illinois at 14 after his Dad had beat him with a trace chain-so he had worked on his own in Canada on a farm for 50 cents a day with bunk and board before joining the Army.
So with the Corona Virus I am already counting four crew ships including the Grand Princess off San Diego, Diamond Princess at Japan, World Dream at Hong Cong, and the Italian Costa Smeraldo. They all have more than 3000 passengers and crew.–3533, 3700, 3600 and unknown respectively. How the San Diego Ship turned up with this virus is strange–it seems like these ships had someone planting the disease on each one. Well what better place to start a virus than a Cruise Ship since it is crowded, inescapable and the folks on them are from all parts of the nations they embark from. The worse thing for the passengers, they will generally be in their elder years so the death toll will be somewhat escalated, but none the less they will be spreading the disease until they expire.
I see even air line pilots are coming down with the disease–another cramped quarters affair, albeit not as time extended as cruise ships, the air lines are more cramped. Buses and bus stations will be the next major problem and of course Gymnasiums, Malls and Political Rallies.
Trump is planning to quarantine the Cruise Ship off the Coast of San Francisco–but that would seem like only a dely of the inevitable. Looking at this situation, I have to believe there is more to this than meets the eye–someone, sleeper cells, or the like are doing a job around the world –NY is on emergency now from deaths and over a 100 dead in Washington state, Arizona with two known infections–. This looks to be a revamped Spanish Flu of the late 1917-1918 era. With the new DNA splicing technology we now have everything from Ebola, Aids, Zombie Brain Mangler, Lymes Disease, to this new Corona Virus and God only knows what else in in those 16 Type 1V facilities and the two dozen more around the world germ factories. Maybe these New World Order Freaks will get their desires working sooner than later–old Gaia is smiling with them–populations will be taken down one way or another.
9-11 and so will 20-30 will have numbers of significance–These planners use numbers as part of their agenda plan and numbers have significant meaning in their secret rites.
Be prepared–so says the boy scout–but be aware as well.
I should follow this since a scientist, Dr. Peter Dazak has been working in China–a WHO employee in various capacities.
He states it is the spreading out of people getting into the natural habitats of nature, the mining and clear cutting that is the reason this flue has occured. He states that it is just a beginning–there will be more pandemics and even worse than what we see with this Corona Virus. He also says that we will not be prepared, just as we were not prepared for the outbreak of the corona virus.
Who–WHO says the wise owl. Who does he think he is kidding? Certainly clear cutting, mining, the constant dispersing of chemicals in the air and retardants on the environment, plastics every where and governments all designing these killer diseases in type 4 secured laboratories around the world–You have to be kidding me. This shit just like the lime disease came straight out of one of those laboratories and maybe more than one. It started in China at a type 4 facility and now it is everywhere.
I would have to believe he is right about there will be more and more deadly virus to contend with. In fact by 2022 the 1.25 billion dollar lab will be completed in Kansas, and how may billions will our government feed that place for even more deadly and fast moving viruses? He must have insider knowledge–and he knows damn well Ebola is an invention but it did not spread like they wanted so they have now come up with a test with this corona virus. With Ebola they patented three strains–the most deadly variety was attached to the flu–second most deadly attached to the cold virus–and by itself not as bad as the others since it needs an attachment to spread well.
That fellow has to be one of your New World Order fans–he likely is hoping for the 7 billion count of bodies by 2030 in accord with what many of the world’s scientists believe is the threshold where total world destruction will begin if that reduction of the population is not met.
Well perhaps they are right, but who is going to volunteer to be first? No one, so those with the secret agendas and international world powers will be doing the dirty work. And prey tell how do you prepare for a deadly virus they invent and turn loose on people?
After what I saw at 911–a planned operation–anything can happen and will. This is my opinion and I certainly hope the young ones can make a difference because their world is going to be a mess and a challenge for them to have any kind of a free and safe society, My opinions and as the cowboy says, too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence.
Gary,
In the world we live in a man can piss in a coffeemaker and only get demoted. If that happened in the private/local gov’t or FD that guy would be sitting in jail. That kind of offense is not only toxic but could be life threatening if it was consumed. The FEDS have a multitude of standards that still blow me away to this day. Am I surprised he got a hand slap, no actually. If pissing in a coffeemaker is a hand slap then what would the YHF, Caples and all the Sexual Harassment still occurring in R-5 equate to? There is a man that I know of that admitted to and still commits sexual harassment (ever so slightly) to this day that was demoted and then given a raise in the new position they created for him. SA is immediate termination after due process which was carried out in full 1.5 years ago.
Vicki Christensen and her royal staff are SME’s at allowing terrible behavior to continue to keep the press (PBS, Outside and other high level reporting entities) from putting the USFS in the lime-light again. A system that rewards indifference, low bar setting and dangerous behaviors to continue you’d think would be heavily sanctioned, nope, “F-up and move up”. This upcoming fire season will bring more pain and ignored ROE’s as the people in-charge know that no-one is ever accountable anymore. Look for the 1000k plus “Rx” next October near South Lake Tahoe, I wager all that they lose it like they did last October.
Pee goes in the toilet, not in my coffee..lol, thanks for the article Gary, not surprised.
DownhillIndirect
😎
Hola a Amigos y Amiga(s),
I’ts been a while but I’m here to share a few items that are of interest to all of us that believe that TRUTH is a good thing.
My Spanish is a bit dusty but I thought I’d give it a whirl, please check it for those that do speak it fluently, lol.
So, shall we? The year was 1996 on the “Pinnacles Fire in California. Yes, there have been many since named the same but this “Pinnacles Fire” was in the state park. We arrived at 05:30 after a 3.5 hour drive in the Buggies. Back then a call could come in at 0100 and we would leave as soon as the last person came into the base. Twenty-one day plus fire assignments were the norm and so was working with multiple agencies that DID not have the same radio’s the FEDS had. 9/10 times the state and local government adjoining resources were either given a Bendix-King on loan per crew or engine or we would give them one to complete the LCES component that wasn’t really LCES yet. We still kept comm’s because LA County, KERN, Ventura and most local government including CDF at the time had Motorola radios that DID NOT work TX or RX (Transmit or Receive) with BK radios.
So the first shift on the “Pinnacles Fire” our IHC was assigned to begin some mop-up near the Point of Origin so our overhead could scout the fire that was starting to really pick up in fire behavior. Since we were the only IHC on the state/local government incident so far my Supt. handed a LA county inmate crew supervisor one of our 20 BK radios. Back then we had so many for that very reason, many inter-agency fires. As we continued to work the temperatures rose to 105 at 0700. We shaded up knowing the fire was going to get up and Rip. We were in a somewhat ratty burn adjacent to a very large safety zone, (The HARD COLD BLACK). we were 3 minutes away from it at a snails pace on the upper 3rd of the slope. At 0800 we started to see a very uniform smoke column of smoke below us that continued on past us about a mile continuously. Even though we gave a BK radio to the LA County crew Supt. he DID NOT tell us he was going to “Burn-out” the section of line we were working in.
We had LCES in place personally as a crew and stepped into the pre-designated safety zone. My Supt. (The lookout) called the LA County crew and requested a “Face to Face”, more like an A$$ chewing. My point, “Friendly Fire” happened then, it happened frequently and it still happens now. Even with safety precautions put in place these turds could’ve burned us up if we weren’t paying attention. BTW that whole area burned off clean up to our safety zone. Fast forward to the standardization of radios and frequencies we still have incidents like this occur, near misses or fatalities. Look at the YHF and the “Radio issues” they supposedly had. When it mattered, miraculously everyone could hear everything, except for what they didn’t want us to hear. Take the fact that on the YHF they had a City based fire chief acting as a SPGS in the WUI with VERY little practical experience, D. Willis. He ordered Back-fires not having a clue of where his resources were let alone adjoining resources and adjoining divisional resources.
D. Willis is not and was not a SME now or then especially in an arena he dabbled in very infrequently. Putting fire on the ground is a responsibility that can and will negatively affect FF’s IF you aren’t 100% sure of where people are and if you truly understand fire behavior, topography and LOCAL weather. YES, fire lit 1-5 miles away can and will affect other divisions full of people if the factors line up, and yes all of the factors lined up for rapid rates of spread. Am I saying Willis was solely responsible for the HEAD fire launched at GMIHC? No, I am not. I will say this, under the circumstances and because many FF’s lost SA and self-control, multiple Backfires were lit on the same landscape south of Willis and his band of city trained FF’s. The term, “Structures Threatened” can take questionable leaders and turn them into reactive Zombies that are doomed to tunnel vision and overall bad decision making people, not sound “Fire Leaders”. That isn’t an excuse, it’s a contagious behavior that can only be broken by someone with “command Presence”. Sadly, there wasn’t ONE Leader with “Command Presence” that day. Now, we are left to redactions, lies, fear and people hoping they keep their retirements.
If anyone thinks “Friendly Fire” doesn’t happen, feel free to contact me through channels I give permission (Desert Walker, RTS and others) to reach out to them so I can reach out and educate those that disagree of the times I watched it happen for decades, SEE Pinnacles above. The systemic infection at the Legarza down to the brand new WFFF is and has been in place for so long that the Agency “Royalty” think there isn’t a problem. If I am wrong, then why the IHC staff ride to Yarnell mixed with security, ONE family member and high level Agency FAM to ensure the IHC community drank every last drop of the “Nothing and No-One” made mistakes YHF Cool-Aid weeks ago? That staff Lie (not Ride) was shameful. If I am wrong, show me, in depth, show me.
Two days ago I forwarded a very important document to a very well trusted and respected Fire leader I hold to the highest standard of Integrity. This document is original, telling and outlines the gross negligence of the very same people who assisted the SAIT/SAIR (YHF) in constructing the biggest LIE I have ever witnessed as a human being and as a Firefighter/Leader. He now holds the original document that proves the same people that covered up the YHF will stop at nothing to cover-up themselves, their counterparts and the Agency that condones gross negligence at any price. When the time is right, that document will be made public so that those responsible will be forced to tell the truth. Remember, the families/friends DESERVE the truth, however painful. It will not bring anyone back but it will allow the people of America to see how ignorant these Agencies believe we are, thus allowing for real change to occur. Thank God for the Constitution, the Bill of Rights and our founding Fathers. This document proves that lying now proves lying then.
I attempted to post this very response on a well known publication that most WLFF’s follow and read monthly. It posted for a short period of time and then disappeared. Yes, it made it through moderation, was there to read and then was removed. I am an educated person and Firefighter. I am courteous and shared the truth, apparently the truth wasn’t appreciated. So, IM will get the story when it’s time, as will a few major news publications. It’s too bad it was erased, it is too bad that the Agency steers the private sector at times. I learned this, “Know who is who and who doesn’t have the Public’s best interests in mind. It’s too bad that IM is looked at in a bad light in the SAIT/SAIR, Book writers club circles and those that KNOW the real TRUTH has and IS coming out on IM if they like it or not, Thank you JD. Shame on the rest of those we all know of that have lied for 7 years now, you all know who you are.
So, here is what was written, moderated, posted and then erased…..Enjoy,
The Truth,
The USFS began ignitions on the Caples Rx within 72 hours of a known weather and eminent wind event. The Go-No-Go check-list was in the NO for the majority of the checklist. The Probability of Ignition was in the 80’s-90″s when the prescription called for The Probability of Ignition in the 60’s. Falsification of on-site weather is Illegal.
Cal-Fire had NO involvement except for helping fight the fire after it escaped Prescription. The USFS lit continuously through the Fire Weather Watch and through the Red Flag Warning. Allowing this kind of apathetic behavior to continue is shameful. For a project that had a 10 year completion under 10K acres to burn just under half (4,000+) of that in less than 2 weeks is absurd. David vs. Goliath again as the USFS protects illegal actions yearly. Who in their right minds would begin ignitions on a prescribed burn during a well known and communicated “Fire Weather Watch” that had a high probability of becoming a “Red Flag Warning that surfaced strongly”? PG&E cut power to hundreds of thousands of customers because of the “Fire Weather Watch and then Red Flag Warning” as ignitions began. Minimal to NO water sources, minimal resources and the blatant disregard for the Prescribed Fire Documentation that was signed by multiple High ups. Well done gutting a water shed, well done. This spring the Silver Fork Area is going to be in serious trouble because of Incompetence, not to mention the American River and the water millions drink.
No this isn’t “Normal” and NO they haven’t learned anything from the very same illegal actions like the “Cerro Grande” fire that burned up Los Alamos, NM and most of the community. YES that fire was an Rx fire lit under the same conditions, absolutely unbelievable. I’d say to ask the Forest Supervisor in-charge at the time but was reported he “Retired” just after the smoke cleared two weeks after the Caples Wildfire was controlled, hmm. This isn’t a case of Bureaucracy and big government, it is a case of gross negligence, reportedly and from a solid source they had 10 years to complete it (2027). I’m sure the promotions and atta’ boys are freely flowing by now and yes this entire thing could’ve and should’ve been avoided by following the rules they created, the Go-No-Go check-list.
Liability insurance only goes so far and so does public trust. (END)
This response was on an open forum that had many upset residences, tax-payers and Firefighters that were and still are upset about the Caples Prescribed burn lit under a “Fire Weather Watch and then a Red Flag Warning” It escaped it’s prescription status and became a Wildland fire quickly under conditions that are clearly stated as prohibited to begin ignitions or continue ignitions within 72 hours of a weather/wind event. The NWS clearly stated and communicated the eminent conditions and the rest is history. Talking with friends that live in the area or that were assigned to this highly illegal incident stated they witnessed fire behavior at night that mirrored burning conditions mid-day or at prime time in the late summer. Another statement made by a trusted colleague was, “Remember, this was in Early October at 6000′-6800′”. “We were in danger the whole time and we were asked to do things that directly violated our ROE’s”. “The more that citizens know, the better in regards to how much planned gross negligence occurs daily within Governmental Agencies”. These people that were there fear for their jobs but were so shooken by this incident are standing up.
This entire mess from the YHF to really BAD decisions made by the same people only years later prove there isn’t a “Checks and Balance” within the largest Fire agency in the world.
I look at it like they are Walmart. Yes, you can get almost anything from the place but, usually the quality of what you get is awful. I challenge anyone to call a Governmental office and ask a general question. Then, call Walmart and ask a general question, I’d be willing to wager the answer would be the same if your call isn’t dropped between getting passed to 5 different departments or, you aren’t hung up on as they know there isn’t accountability in either place. Try it, I did, guess what, I was passed along to the next person four times to get a “I don’t know” to the call being dropped or hung up on, (sorry Walmart). Well, always have a radio, communicate, tell the truth and don’t light a prescribed fire within 72 hours of a well known and communicated weather event. Via con dios Amigos.
DownhillIndirect
I am in class since 545 this morning and still for another one to two hours
Read this soon
Probably not tomorrow because my class runs 730am to 8pm tomorrow
Then I will be a certified boss in the fire industry
It does not feel any different
Maybe because it lacks the experience, eh
However felt like another hashtag
#Kurth #Investigate Caples RX
Back to class
The Corna Virus is here in a big way–all along the coast over 8000 in California down and being tested for the virus., Government wants you not to be buying surgical masks since there is a short supply and the Hospital workers need them the most. This may even be worse than the Spanish Flu since it is a designed Virus and may be one of the solutions the Jakarta, India convention of world scientists needed to hear. The earth according to a concensus there needs to be reduced to 800 million by 2030–that meeting was in 1994. What meetings have been held since and what have the world Puppeteers decided? After wathching the video RTS posted about the World Trade Center Ordeal–what governments out there can we trust–even our own is suspect.
China has always had a population problem and you could be jailed for having more than than one child–though that was relaxed some, China has no qualms of thinning out its own population. When Mao took over millions were exterminated. And one Chinese whistle blower claimed China was also purposely infecting US Military and others with this new virus. Do the leaders of China believe their scientists that say the world must be thinned down? If not they are doing a good job of thinning their own elderly now–and perhaps the World’s elderly and sick as well. But I have to wonder is China the only one in on this elderly purge. My ideas, but with the government track records, one has to wonder even if we are powerless to change other world government intentions.
I have a box of these masks, but I live away from the masses and may not need them so will keep a few and donate to the hospital workers if it comes to that. Mark had stocked up on them and being an RN that shows his smarts. They will be hard to come by until the production increases.
When will governments and offices start becoming honest? There is a lesson—the government is comprised of people just like us. What makes them stoop to deceptions considering that the citizens put their trust in them to do the right things?
Yarnell was a blight on government and state because it involved the deaths of so many heroes. Just as 343 firemen were killed in the World Trade Center Tragedy, then 19 GMHS deaths, even one death of a person risking their lives in such occupations should be in every way made public as to the facts and truth in these matters.
I know that RTS has spent thousands of dollars out of his own pocket just to get FOIA reports that are supposed to be available to the public for free or just a small fee for the printing up of such. After all we all pay taxes so that this information is freely accessible to the citizen if they are not Secret Documents concerning the security of the nation. Even Secret Documents after 25 years must be revealed to the public. So what gives here when the courts will uphold for the State of Arizona that RTS could not have the documents since the documents might not any longer be there, even when RTS has plenty of proof that they are? What is it when you can not even trust the courts to side with the citizen to know the facts? Conspiracy yes, but not a theory in these obvious cases.
I look at the credentials of RTS–impeccable and like those of Dr. Ted Putnam, they treat these men with disrespect. Yet these Judges and Officials are in office to serve the good citizen and not abuse his rights. Can their names become public so that all know of their unjust works against the citizen seeking truth. It is obvious they do not want the truth known and should be impeached for breaching citizen rights.
There was lots of profit made from the Yarnell ordeal. I understand that Karen Fenn’s brother gained some $700,000 for the small paved lot along Highway 89 where a Forest Service guy or gal parrot the State version of how the GMHS were accidentally killed while attempting to save structures. They offer a bottle of water and smile, likely not knowing the truth unless Joy has shown up there.d I won’t show up–there is a much easier way to get to the site and they could have used that million to make it easy–but remember, influential Amanda did not want anyone paying respects to the dead by going to the site–except a few that she thought should. Even such luminaries as Dr. Ted Putnam were restricted and you had Chief Ben Palm ready to arrest anyone caught in the area.
What a fluke when you consider it from the outsider view that you see here on IM. Joy has it right, this is the year of 20-20 but the vision of the ordeal is still being fogged up once you look at the concerted effort to keep RTS from documenting what he already knows, what they know, and what they have made every effort to hide.
RTS–you are quite the hero to champion the charge to reveal the facts and truth of Yarnell–I know it has cost you heavily in finances and time and effort and even the disdain of some fellows who would side with the lies. I think many do not know the frustrations you have endured, but I am privy enough to know about them. I can only commend you since I know your heart is in the right place and your efforts are not to hurt anyone but to save lives of young men that deserve the changes needed to improve their safety. An effort that will be certain to save lives and leave you at peace knowing you have given your utmost to save your fellow wild land fire fighter.
When I speak well of RTS, Gary, Woodsman, Joy, WTKTT, Norb, Dr. Ted Putnam, Powers, DND, Dianne, John Daugherty and others posting here I think of the good they are doing and how much they want to set things right.
There were times in my life that I turned my head when I could have set some things right. I did not do the right thing by doing so and in some instances it came back to bite me. Especially in families we tend to turn our heads when we have family that we should have ratted on yet let it slide. Courts do protect us in certain ways since spouses are exempt from having to testify against a mate. Counselors must remain confidential unless a murder might ensue.
I see the fire fighting community much like a family, yet when safety of the young men or women is concerned, then like the Counselor, the members are responsible to reveal the facts that will insure such incidents as the killing of the GMHS crew will not repeat. They must come forward with the facts because not to do so will result in injuries and deaths to their fellow firefighter, and in many cases it can be a son or daughter since fire fighters often have sons and daughters that follow their example. Even ones own safety can be challenged if he is a fire fighter. So it is that to not do the right thing may and in most cases will come back and bite you in the ass. It is called Karma but very real in this world where few ponder the consequences.
I had told the story of the small man whom had the old pickup–Tan in color just like the khaki’s he wore. When he had seen the Bible I had on the table he had said you don’t need to study that so hard, just do the good things of the ten commandments and you will be fine. I have since believed him to be an angel of sorts, a good alien in disquise or one of the workers of the gods or God, whatever suits your perspective–even the Bibles mentions that you may entertain angels in the form of a human. He was simply telling me to do the right things and keep doing them and all will be fine–though it may not seem so at time. Certain that I have gone through some times that only the Irish Gods or those I have met unawares have helped me get through.
I just talked to my daughter–I am proud of her and she has a heart of gold and loves her brothers and family. She has offered her brother $20,000 to cover his wages to take time off from the hospital during the oncoming Corona Virus epidemic. I think that is about what RTS has already spent in cash on his quest because he cares for his fellow wild land fire fighter and those he knows that deserve the changes in safety measures. These are examples of people that genuinely care for those they care for. It is indeed an example for some whom have failed to understand the significance of truth and its necessity to life as we live it.
One only has to read the posts by the professional wild land fire fighter to realize the years of experience necessary to become adept at will land fire fighting and savvy enough to handle a management job where lives depend upon responsible actions. Whew, I would be no where close to the ability needed to man a crew–maybe even to be on a crew. I would certainly hope to have a better understanding that what Donut had presented–something even I could see on how he was positioned.
It does give those of us that are civilians an understanding of the importance of a boss that is both aware of safe ways to fight fires as well as the willingness to apply those above risking the lives of his crew. Surely in the case of Donut, the bosses knew his ignorance of safety and lack of knowing how to protect himself–he had demonstrated that on previous fires where he barely escaped and I wonder if that was an ongoing affair with the whole of the crew. I believe his story of escaping the Yarnell incident with embers crossing the road in front of him was a bit of truth from his lips–Brian Frisby would likely say, yes I saved his but and we did barely escape.I think also that Donut made a wise decision to retire from wild land fire fighting–his training was not sufficient to keep him alive and would have eventually landed him dead. Yes he is better off playing the speaking tours to entertain and educate people what not to do in case you become a fire fighter. First off do not be one if you think the safety rules offered are hillbilly –something old fashioned and out of date. But his is not about safety, it is about sympathy and seems he has been able to make good off of that.
I had just watched a true Documentary titled The Real Two Bravo Zero, It is free on Tubi–I don’t pay for movies since generally I forget the titles and wind up paying for one I have already seen or the alternative it turns out to be a movie I can only handle 5 minutes of.
This documentary is so similar to the situation of the GMHS crew. The men were 8 British Special Forces fellows that in the end had only two survivors. This was during the Iraq war–so they had been assigned to scout for enemy situations to take out.
To give you a bit of their trek, it involved 180 KM or some where near 60 miles of trek across a mostly barren desert and through enemy territory. In the end the two survivors wrote a book of their experiences.
The book they wrote told of how many they fought off, and had killed above 250 in one place with bodies laying everywhere and how they killed police in other places and the like. Rambo fighting at its best or worse if you see that 6 were killed. The book touted them as heroes and much like Donut they were given high priority and decorations just as we saw given at Yarnell after the fire to certain individuals for their heroic efforts.
Well, now that the war is over a Brit that had lived among the Bedoins for a number of years and spoke the language decided to take the book and follow the trail to understand and feel and understand the heroic deeds these men had claimed.
It turns out that the story these heroes wrote was nothing even near the truth–they had written a fiction–they had not even killed one person but in the main had died from exposure although in a couple cases two of the men were shot and died of wounds. The story is so much like what we saw at Yarnell except by the documentary of the truth those false heroes were exposed.
It was well worth the hour or so to watch–one thing I could relate to those Bedouins and that desert way of life they have. Propaganda demonizes people so well. It made me realize how propagandized we were to go over there and attack those people–most just common folk of the land who would never want to come here and fool with our country. It made me realize what fools we are when the media and the politicians want to convince our public to do damnable things. Our Commander in Chief in that one was the real war criminal by sacrificing our young men and killing millions of those people on their own land. Is there any wonder they hate America? And yes I do not want them over here any more than they want us over there on their own lands.
One I saw what was the real purpose of the invasion of Iraq I could understand the crime. I can bet that many of the Iraq soldiers who were doing their duty now feel the same way –and now the Gulf War Disease? But do those leaders that did the damage have conscience about it–I doubt the reptilians have any at all.
But do not believe I think less of those young soldiers who went there –they believed it was the right thing to do. They would stand up for this nation should we be invaded–so would most of us. But we were gun fodder in too many wars–VietNam for one and others that should have never been our fights. But they do enrich the arms dealers, protect the oil and make huge profits for the globalists that instigate these things.
Joy,
Keep up the excellent work! I AM SOOO PROUD of YOU! The best way to know who you are dealing with is to truly EDUCATE yourself. YOU are doing it, never give up, keep learning, keep smiling and know that the guys are with you when you ask questions and take your exams. The “Mighty Might” is becoming a valued WLFF.
DO NOT fret about experience, that will come and YOU will do great things. Your mentors are proud of you and they are many. Again, soo proud of the hard work and perseverance you show daily!
DownhillIndirect
Thank you DND
I am 4 hours left before I am certified…
Engine boss class was kick ass yesterday with Stephen Swimmer and Matt Behrens and single resource boss class was the best with Paul Garcia…
I can say this
Doing pushups because some kid did not know his 10 and 18 but the group has to was new for me
I am use to writing essays
Sonny…I am officially certified 😷🥴🙂
Now off to the doctor of all places …
It’s my lumbar
I took xrays and go over them this week.
I was in class 730am to 8pm.
After my facilitator instructor class I will get to my emails but then again I head off from there…so when I can I will …
Night
So tired.
Heath Cota and Brad Mayhew are in the newer training materials
Good to see Ted Mason and Paul Hefner in the videos but I need to sit down with Cota and Mayhew and share the class feedback what they thought of them and these people had no clue I wrote about both on my posts.
They should take the time to hear it…
Zzzzz
OK official Joy. Don’t be redacting copies now and by all means don’t be dropping off into that dry manzanita with a cigarette in your mouth–or even if you don’t smoke and a fire is in the vicintity.
Well I doubt you took up smoking but I hope you were trained by someone other than those that worked the Yarnell Fire. They might need some training themselves.
Certified and bonafied Joy. Glad you made it–did you get a badge?
D. Willis is not and was not a SME and only will be when he says the failures from June 30, 2013 and talks about WHO ELSE was there from his local area…stop the insidious lies, sir.
I am almost certified in areas I feel I need to tell the rest they are and have failed to share.
I am more a SME than Willis and all his time in the fire industry
I dug and documented the facts
You know
This week I was in an audit role and I did present as a SME as an eyewitness to a fire fatality
I bet those people did not leave scratching their heads like when they hike with Willis and all that Staff ride silliness
I will go over that staff ride some day so those Sups get what happened
Families were told NO FAMILY MEMBERS on that ride … another big fat lie.
Stop the facade
I was in an audit role
After I read your comment
I just ceased and gonna crash
They are doing their shelter sections…
Good night
What is a SME? Southern Mehtodist Evangelist or Some Martian Emissary? Told you I am a bit slow.
Hey Charlie,
A “SME” (Subject Matter Expert) should be someone that has spent an extensive period of time as an expert in what HE/SHE does. Being trained in both aspects of Firefighting can be done but in a lot of cases it can be a dangerous combination, (YHF). It’s like saying since I was an EMT-P, I an now a Medical Doctor. Yes both job descriptions deal in medicine but one has spent 11 more years in the field, you know? Kind of a bad comparison but it’s all I had today, lol.
I would consider you a SME in Mining as you know the ins and outs of safety, where to be, where to go, etc.
Intermixing Structural theologies within the WUI/Wildland arena can prove to be devastating. I’m sure that Mr. Willis is an expert in Structural Firefighting/EMS and all that comes within a city landscape, However; filling a SGS (Structure Group Supt.) role in a very dynamic environment based upon a few rolls with the guys and a handful of vegetation fires in your city career does not qualify anyone in that role. Getting a cert and filling out a task-book doesn’t make someone ready to protect a town and make choices that can negatively affect hundreds of WLFF’s if you don’t have the mental slides from years of dedicated wild-land experience. As harsh as that may sound, it’s the truth and it’s the job of the individual to “Step-back” and say “I’m not ready for this”
On the “Paradise Fire” I had trusted colleagues that work only in Wild-land back out and ask for help, just sayin’…You’re a good Apple Charlie….
DownhillIndirect
I was kidding for the record on me and SME
Clarification
As eyewitness others professionally call the hikers SME eyewitnesses
You will be the difference maker in attaining positive change, Downhillndirect. Sure is nice not to be alone screaming at the top of my lungs about all of this.
USA! USA!! USA!!! 🇺🇸🇺🇸🇺🇸
Woodsman,
Hey there Amigo! Thank you. It took a LONG time before I decided to step up to the microphone so to speak. I am just an average person that got caught in the crossfire just like the majority of us. The fire community is tiny and after time we all have a micro-separation between us all. You have helped me in ways I can’t explain and for that I want to express my gratitude to you. When I wanted to quit, you said things that kept me going. All of you have done this for me and I am grateful. Keeping up with FOIA documents, statements and the “Smoke and Mirrors” laid before us makes my head spin. But, you and the gang here have kept me focused and help me write my peace/piece here. Someday, seriously I hope to drink some coffee with you and build some saws, it’s fun and it relaxes me. Stay the course Amigo.
DownhillIndirect
Glad I could help! May run into you at the briefing one morning. If so, sack lunch is on me. Haha! Stay the course. You are hitting on very important points here. I’ve had fire sent my way too. It does happen more frequently than people realize. Super stoked i never was sent to Cerro Grande. What a shitshow!
If you’re ready to talk about it I’d like to hear what you know about the arguments between DIV A & Steed. Also, if you can shed light on how Marsh was able to tie in with the crew yet the crew couldn’t escape the fire sent up the drainage to them. If this is too difficult, I understand. I’m fairly sure I know who was pressuring the crew to get to the ranch…at least one of them who happened to be in charge of structure protection in that area.
My tenuous theory is that Marsh saw what was being sent to the crew before they did and had the time to join them. By the time GM realized what was happening they didn’t have time for many options at all. I also think the crew probably ended up scattered compared to the official diagrams.
Again, if it’s too much to deal with, I understand. I don’t want to cause any setbacks for you. I do think the truth is the best long term healing for everyone but I can respect your position too.
If what I understood about your experience is correct, serious props to you for maintaining your knowledge and perspective of the wildfire culture. That’s not a given and we are all reaping the benefits of you keeping it.
Woodsman
Woodsman said< " I also think the crew probably ended up scattered compared to the official diagrams."
This was always my belief too. I think this is what they did on the night nobody will talk about.
I will go over this area yet I want the loved ones first to reach me and sit with me before I do this public; Bill and Woodsman. If I pass on, the coroner of my trusted choice has this plus so much more on what I want shared alive or not especially on the CAPLES RX in 2019- Yet, bare with me because it is a highly sensitive area. I also am awaiting the signature of a first hand person yet he still is in the working areas and not such an easy area to sign off on it yet I am fully aware of events and why for years I beg and pleaded these people SPEAK UP.
Some GMHS loved ones already have the KEY tools I gave them and we hope in that more will come to the front yet again their choice for I so get the sensitivity and privacy and NOT wanting to be the FIRST ONES…so get it, There is more and I may bridge it into a serious document at some point and allow another to be my voice.
I so get you on your beliefs…bare with me. I am working very hard on just those hours.
I’d really like Downhillndirect to answer these questions if he is able and willing to help me. Ive already said i understand if its too much for him right now. Thanks, Joy.
Woodsman
How could the official positions be a sensitive matter? That would just detail the actual position each man was in at the time of death? Would someone be so insensitive as to position the bodies different from where they were found?
People are coming out with new information and now that it is past 7 years I would think the statute of limitations would protect them for withholding and any other criminal action concerning the GMHS ordeal. I would thing positioning of the bodies for evidential reasons would be criminal.
So if someone has information that will add facts and information to the GMHS story, then lay it on us. We can stand more facts and truth–in fact any small fact might have grand implications.
If you have information please share it. To dangle a carrot is not the right thing to do at this point in time. If feelings are hurt because the truth is given that is too bad. Truth in this historical event is most important and above all else.
The people that post here are generally the cream of the crop concerning wild land forest service credentials. They should not be denied any even minor detail in their work at unraveling that which was not wanted to be known or understood–the truth.
Joy, I would say anything you have belongs to the public just as much as it does to the loved ones. After all they have had 7 years and certainly the funds to hire private investigators if they were truly interested in all the facts.
Going by what Dr Ted. Putnam said in his work as the Nation’s top wild fire death investigator–he stated that about half the loved ones do not want more information–they just want to put the death behind them and in their words, move forward.
So out or respect to those wishes then I would not want to inform all of them. However the information does belong on public view where if they should desire could access.
That was a surprising statement from Ted, since I had always believed people would be like myself would want all the facts. But not so and I have never investigated wild land fire deaths, but you know Ted would know. I do have to believe that the sons and daughters will likely want to know in a bigger percentage.
Investigative Media is a source that can be accessed or not. As the Amanda group advises, do not come here–some can not stand the bare facts but this is where they belong foremost for those that either want them or alternatively can avoid them.
You know if you give them to John D., he is not one to mess around, and even Dr. Ted found that out. He gets the news out to the public where it belongs. Seven years in my book cancels any reason to informed loved ones that may or may not want the facts. And if they do, they can come here–this knowledge is not their sole privilege at this late date.
As always these are my opinions–not meant to offend–you have worked hard at getting these facts. What you do with them is your decision.
again, please read Sonny
I am doing the loved ones first then the public
in that order only
thanks for the way you think but you ain’t a target like I am
I am a wee bit MORE cautious then you
and the point is I am at least DOING behind the scenes
so just because it has not reached this spot does not mean I am not working hard … those who know , know I am.
Bill,
I think a lot of secret agreements were made that night among PFD personnel. I think the bodies were repositioned in an attempt to show crew unity. Even though I don’t believe the crew scattering in a desperate attempt to save themselves individually shows any dishonor at all, I guess they thought differently. When I found out about a set of boots up on the rocks away from the reported deployment site I have to believe someone left them at the location of a fallen crewmember. (remember the original body count was 18 then 19) I believe the bodies were moved and the entire scene of the fatality site was contaminated by local FD personnel. Big time.
Part of the pact that night was also to keep quiet about the Shrine corridor burnout when they realized what had happened, in my opinion. To this day I am floored that the scene was not secured by law enforcement and apparently people were allowed all over that area “within the tape.” Add this to the laughable chain of evidence following the entire incident and I’m simply in awe of the actions of these professionals.
He’ll, at this point I wouldn’t be totally shocked if I find out McDonough was the ringleader of torching off that dozer push which burned up his own crew. I can honestly say hardly anything would surprise me at this point about the YHF debacle.
Once again, I’ll say it would have been way easier just to come clean instead of all these lies. We all would have had 7 years of healing under our belts instead of this garbage…which is going to be much harder to deal with. I worry about those holding all of this in. It can’t be stopped as there’s just too much unbelievable circumstances to lie about. People want to know why and how we lost almost an entire elite crew with today’s knowledge and technology.
I still believe only with the whole truth becoming known comes real healing.
Woodsman
WOW! i never considered any of that as even a possibility, I guess I should have? It would explain everything.
In every interview given after the tragedy the same thing was repeated over and over. “they stuck together like brothers”, “nobody ran”, they stuck together to face what was happening”, “they all stuck together and did what they were trained to do” etc..
Just the fact these phrases were repeated so many times is suspicious
I just wish they all would have ran and started running sooner.
What is strange though is that it was stated “we did things we will never talk about”
Why did they through that out there? subliminal guilt?
Subliminal guilt or remorse is a possibility. Also, repeating those phrases could be a method of saying “We did things only we know about & nobody else will.” It is surprising people would even mention a secret pact like that. Like Gary said, a secret can only be kept if only one person knows about it. Or something like that.
You are right Woodsman–I know because when Joy offered her photos soon after the fire–about only a week–the fire chief said he did not need the photos, that they already knew what happened. The plan was already in effect to tell people the concocted version so they did not need evidence.
Yes, I think it was said that Donut had gotten real excited the first time he used the drip torch. That must be an advancement–well it sounds like if he could have, he would have.
And Joy, I realize you have to do it your way–you know best and I am not pushing you to post anything you have. I am just pointing out how few it seems of the loved ones are pursuing the truth. However, I think they may have made a deal with the State to keep things quiet. It seems you and those that are working this site are the ones that will be bringing more to light. You deserve awards for your efforts–I know they have been long and arduous and you have never one day even not been working on getting people informed.
Yes I am to forward, I know. I hate the bullshit we have been fed about not only the deaths of the GMHS crew but also the facts that are hidden about the retardant and its effects on especially the elderly. It is worse than the coronavirus that kills every tenth elderly person. Then in Yarnell you could look to your right and the people were dead, and to the left people were dead–all after the retardant dumps. In fact that whole street we had the cabin on was in every other house a dead person or else someone having heart surgery or down with cancer. What ever the secret ingredients were mixed with the known toxins was a killer.
So yes, I seem a bit bold–but I fell with a heart attack within the first year and several thereafter. I am not one to be having heart attacks–but then I was seeing so many we stayed in the Gym with on their death beds or dead. I could only attribute it to the retardant–many more died there in Yarnell–a count of about 200 in 7 years–almost like the killing in Juarez, Mexico–only worse percentage wise. Two thousand dead in Juarez in one year seems big but the ratio of 2000 to a million residents i something like 1:500. Yarnell was 1:3. They would have to have a death rate of of over 150 times that or more than 300,000 dead people to get the same ratio of deaths that Yarnell had. So yes, If Juarez or El Paso in the US had 1 in three dead in 7 years, there would be some questions and action.
But I do believe the ho hum attitude the Feds have about this Retardant only shows how little they care for the elder person. But it does not stop there since some of the younger were affected and add to that the effects of those chemicals seeping into the water tables and since phosphates are water soluble they get into the streams and water ways and eventually add to the polluted oceans.
I’m working on it, finally giving up some paperwork I’ve had for years. Soon, you all deserve it, from the best place in my heart, I mean it..
DownhillIndirect
Understood. Thanks
Woodsman
DND-Got it–well stated, but as usual the wild land fire fighter that says anything factual regarding bad decisions–(sometimes decisions a novice would even not do by simple common sense)–then that fire fighter’s post will be censored. Investigative Media has been my only source since the other sites generally support the Amanda Marsh version of events. Whew, how can a non fire fighter have such influence–did Marsh teach her his methods to fight wild fires?
I picked up much from your post–these things the public need to understand since most are woefully ignorant of wild fires and their proper methods of containment. They certainly for the most part have no clue how weather conditions are paramount in these controlled burns that turn out to be uncontrolled wildfires because the dummies that are supposed to know better go ahead despite the NO BURN situations you mentioned.
And I do not know how many burns were ordered or started during the death fire of Yarnell. It should be mandatory to keep records of such burns and a map available for later reference–but that is not possible if people deny these burns. Anyone not rerporting the burn they did should be immediately removed from the wild land fire fighting profession–and I suspect quite a few city fire fighters were having a burn hay day, since Gary has educated us that the wild land fire fighter does burns–that is what they do he says.
D. Willis had said the fire was advancing at 11mph–that would mean in five miles it would take 27 minutes to reach the GMHS crew. At three miles that would be 16 minutes for the fire to reach GMHS. What I would think though, considering 35-45 mph winds and embers flying ahead in that dry dense brush that even a 5 mile distant burn reversed could be cut in half for time factor. There were also some things to consider since the GMHS were elevated above the fire–which means the advance if only ten degrees would double in velocity. But that is something that only experience of being on those wild fires could make good estimates of and since there were burns in the Sesame Street and Shrine area, the fact is that we are now talking about only about 3/4 mile to a mile and 1/2 distance and that is all at least a 10% rise in elevation uphill to where the GMHS crew deployed. So for a mile it would just take 5 minutes for a 11 mph advance to get to GMHS crew. But uphill you might easily cut that time down to half –and as you said if you have a burn going it can draw the main fire faster as well. It seemed from the time that the GMHS realized they were in trouble they had less than a minute before they deployed.
Is it possible that these bosses that run these fires do not know these simple facts about wild fires? How could you possibly ever even think of getting into a trap with this kind of knowledge of wild fire movement under your hat? After I learned this, I wondered why those bosses were not screaming at Marsh to keep his crew in the black instead of the “How”s yer comfort zone” shit.
I think there is much to be said about the dangers of working near crews that only have City Fire Department experience. DND points that out–and it has to be true. They would have little understanding of weather effects and even likely little understanding of how Wild Fires can react to burns. I had not considered how a burn can actually cause a vacuum ahead of itself to move the fire faster or to cause another burning area to be sucked in faster. But what I did understand that day was that that fire was out of control and advancing very rapidly even with no wind behind it. Cowboy Rick did not need to tell me not to get caught down in that manzanita trap with that fire anywhere near–I was watching it and that was enough.
Thanks for the posts DND–you clear up much for the citizen non-fire fighter.
Charlie,
You are a very intelligent man that I hope I get to meet and hang out with for a while soon someday. I have more in my mind that I will share tomorrow thank you for always explaining what your thoughts are so eloquently. We will always be amigos my friend.
DownhillIndirect
You are always welcome DND–I have had some fine visits from some of best in wild land fire fighting–always enjoyed the visits. People were often at my cabin when I was at Yarnell–so many that came to visit the site and pay respects while trying to imagine how it could happen.
DND –In truth I am a slow one–good at hunting but slow at thinking and not streetwise.
But this is not about us–it is about a murder mystery and we have been given much time to think about it. We also owe it to our fellow citizen and in this case heroes that met a death in a most illogical fashion. For that reason those like yourself with ample wild fire experience and credentials along with concerned loved ones, friends and citizens demand all the details, facts and truth to explain this murder mystery.
We know some of the key instigators, but we need all the small facts and details to understand the events in a precise way. And yes, we are pointing fingers–there were irresponsible actions and dismal management that caused these deaths of the GMHS crew.
It may seem insensitive to some that the truth should be so important. But what will they say when there are more incidents of killing that happen because the problems that killed the 19 were not addressed? To deny and hide the truth resulting more deaths has to be the ultimate insensitivity one could display
Charlie,
There are IHC openings in R-3 (AZ-NM) as we speak. I think you would be a great addition to any one of them, not kidding. You are a good man and a great friend to everyone here and abroad. Thank you for being you and speaking with purpose and truth. We are working on a trip to the motherland soon for a week or so. We will dedicate a week to our friendships made here and spend some quality time. You make the camp-fire and I’ll bring the beans…
DownhillIndirect
That would be great–I am surprised Norb did not make it this past year–he was supposed to get this far south and I was told Ted might head this way in a few months. He is an avid rock hound and I had plenty of agate for him to sort through. There is always a Guiness and a Corona in the fridge–I seldom drink them these days, but Mark is out now and again and keeps them stocked.
Again I am a loss–what does IHC and R3 signify? It ought to be known that any of the wild fire fighters and even structure fighters as well. You certainly have my respect for the work you do and I always feel honored by the visits.
I do believe the tide has much turned and there will be much good done by the wild land fire fighters that have not been hesitant to express their honest views on Investigative Media. I have been tunnel visioned with this site but I am sure there are other sites that have used the expertise of those experienced wild fighters that post here to carry along.
I believe there will be a time in the future when many of the young ones that were told stories will also research here to understand how and why their fathers were taken from them.
In all honesty, I know I have done little to help. The credit really goes to the men such as yourself, RTS and all the others that have worked so hard to make it known what changes need to be made. I know that Joy has exceptional credit coming–she has worked herself to the bone to get the story out. I would hope someday a documentary would be made that would address the truth as it should have been made from the beginning.
Gary has often been strong at getting it out–I do not know how far along he is on his book–but I had known he was going to devote at least a chapter to the Yarnell Catastrophy.
There are so many highly credible men that want to voice the true cause of the deaths. I have to wonder how these movie producers avoided these people and used such illiterate ones as Donut and non fire fighters like Amanda Marsh as their sources when here on Investigative Media are men that had managed crews for 20 years or more.
But then we have to understand that these movies are more for entertainment than facts. And true to form those looking to profit from the Yarnell incident were quick to accept the “official” slant of things.
I have to give some understanding to the young NY times editor that was in Phoenix. She was given a short deadline to get her book finished –and when people are pressured they do not have the time to get things as precise and they should be. Some of the others had more time, yet as Dr. Ted Putnam pointed out made gross errors that they refused to correct. A tragedy killing 19 wild land fire fighters ought to be precise–it is a history that needs to be recorded with much care.
Now if they would come out with a movie or book with men like yourself, Joy, WTKTT, Ted Putnam, RTS, Woodsman, Gary–just to name a few–then anyone would have to listen–especially considering the wisdom of so many that understand wild fires and what caused the death of the 19.
I bought a copy of Only the Brave at Wal Mart for $10–it was sad and had a lot of personal revelations–but nothing relevant to the cause of the deaths. That should be of utmost importance and why another Movie ought to be produced.
Maybe some wise producer will see to that once he/she starts to see the issues that were avoided. If they do, there are the best qualified men and women that post here that would get at a movie as it should be made–truthful and factual.
Charlie,
R-3 (Region 3= AZ and NM) IHC you know that one…Sleep well buddy, goodnight.
DND
Thanks for making that clear DND. I can see how that applied to the Yarnell fire and some of those attempting to preform wild fire management on Structural qualifications. I can see that there is much to be understood in wild land fire fighting that only much time and on the job experience would suffice-especially considering that the safety of lives are at stake.
Likewise the wild land fire fighter would be at a loss attempting to be a structural firefighter–even their equipment would be mostly useless. I do know that Norb was both a structural and wild land fire fighter—yet he also had long time training in both fields and had to be one that would not take needless risk with his men. He had managed two crews until retirement with no mishaps. I imagine he would have plenty to say about what he saw at Yarnell.
Also, DND thanks for the compliment. However I am well aware that your fellows are way ahead of me. Still I can appreciate your work and know that nearly all that work the wild fires are people of high integrity and doing a work that only a few could do. Too bad there are a few that would avoid safety issues that must be addressed.
No Monday night quarterbacking
Safely back 👍😁
Great to see Arizona again
Is it Moab jeeping time?
Hey Gary
Thank you for all the cool stuff in the mail
You are awesome
👍🤣😁😇
DND said,
“If anyone thinks “Friendly Fire” doesn’t happen, feel free to contact me through channels I give permission (Desert Walker, RTS and others) to reach out to them so I can reach out and educate those that disagree of the times I watched it happen for decades,”
And I say, I certainly agree with that assessment. Whether it is through chaos or incompetence, friendly fire is and always has been a problem. I quit arguing against the “friendly fire” theory a long time ago when I realized I didn’t know what happened on the YHF and I remembered that we should be open to all theories, especially those RTS is so confident about. And as I have written before, a friendly fire incident would certainly explain all of the obvious obfuscation.
And it has been awhile since I have told a True Story, so here is an excerpt from my book. I can also tell you without hesitation that this was the only time I was ever scared enough while fightin’ a fire to think I might die and the incident made me pee pee on myself…just a little bit.
“Our crew boss assigned a five-man backfire team to burn out the dozer line. Hardy and I occupied the deepest firing assignments inside the thick brush from the fire line as we rotated in and out of the fourth and fifth positions.
Suddenly, we were caught off guard as flames roared up below us. A second backfire had been started by an over eager sector boss and a commandeered Happy Jack Hotshot and tye flames were now racing upslope directly at us far faster than I could run, especially through the thick oak brush. Our only chance to escape was to out maneuver the fire by moving quickly at an angle back to the relative safety of the fire line.
At first I panicked and started trying to claw my way through the tall oak brush standing upright. The heavy gallon canteen I carried strapped over my shoulders kept catching on the brush and pulling me back toward the intense oncoming fire. Finally, I was able to control my terror long enough to gather my thoughts and throw the bright orange hard plastic and aluminum canteen down the slope.
Hardy and I then dropped to our knees and began crawling through the thick brush away from the roaring heat of the backfire racing upslope toward us. We screamed obscenities at those firing out below us. Fire conditions and the resulting fire behavior on the Battlement Creek Fire were becoming increasingly erratic and extreme.”
Oh…and one more thing. When Hardy and I met at the hotel in Grand Junction as Subject Matter Experts (SME) for the Battlement Creek Fire, that incident was one of the very first things we talked about during our extensive debriefing at the hotel bar with my former Assistant Crew Boss Bill. Hardy and I did more talking, but Bill made up for it with a lot more drinking. Bill always was a party animal.
Anyway…Hardy and I came face to face with that sector boss who introduced himself to us at the SME meeting the next day. But we didn’t say anything…we just gave each other a look and smiled.
And Hardy and I didn’t talk that much about the fire until the next day when it got serious. That night we mostly talked about life since we hadn’t seen each other or even talked for the 30 years Hardy has been jumping out of Missoula. But it was like we had been on a fire runnin’ our saws together just a few days earlier. The years just magically fell away.
Same thing with Bill, but he didn’t talk much, he mostly just drank and chided us about not keeping up and talking too much. Bill hadn’t changed either.
Whoops, I should have written, “The decades just magically fell away.”
Wow! And now it’s been 14 years since that get together. Time really flies when your havin’ fun.
I know RTS…I know. I should have written, “…you’re having fun.”
And this may sound kinda odd in context of today’s professional wildland firefighting force, especially in the hotshot ranks with all of the new safety protocols and procedures.
But once Hardy and I made it back to the dozer line, we just went back to our positions in the burn out team and the incident wasn’t even discussed. I don’t believe our crew boss was even aware that the incident happened. It was just another day at the office and in big deal.
And like I have written many times before, if the Granite Mountain Hotshots would have been burned over and killed back in my day, it really wouldn’t have been a big deal. Regrettable…yes, unfortunate…yes, but completely understandable because it really was the Wild Wild West in WF and everyone’s perspective was so different back then and so casual about things like that.
We really were programmed to believe that casualties were were unavoidable and therefore to be expected. That obviously wasn’t the case on the Oak Grove Hotshots, but they were an R-5 crew after all, so…
Which again…was why I was so dumbfounded in the evening of June 30, 2013 and I remain dumbfounded to this day. I still have a hard time believing it happened on some level in my brain. And not because it was Granite Mountain, but because it was any hotshot crew in this day and age. And even if I had every answer to every question I have ever had about that fire tonight…I would still be dumbfounded.
“And NO big deal.”
And by back in my day, I am referring to on the Coconino in the mid to late 1970’s. By the time I got to Santa Fe, we had tightened things up a bit.
And by “we”, I mean we as the wildland firefighting industry. But to give you some specific examples of what I am talking about, 1984 was my last season on the line and there still wasn’t any such thing as “turn down protocols” or any means to report a serious incident or “near miss” (and technically a near miss should be called a “hit”, I’m just sayin’) other than the standard CA-16 (Report of a Traumatic Injury), in the case of an actual injury, but that was for OWCP reporting purposes and not for fire safety or accident prevention reasons.
They always had safety messages at the end of every shift briefing and in the shift plan, but they were always the same boiler plate language, “watch out for rolling rocks, watch your spacing, watch out for falling trees, blah blah blah…..
Whoops, a CA-16 is the form to go to the hospital or doctor’s office. A CA-1 is what I meant to write. Maybe I should schedule another brain scan?
Woodsman,
Recall this recent email that Joy released from her Public Records Requests a few weeks (months) ago from BWS Logical Phallacy from October 23, 2014:
From: “Elizabeth Nowicki”
To: DeLong,Dana
CC: Light,Dennis
Kuykendall,Marlin
Date: 10/23/2014 8:35:22 AM
Subject: Request regarding recordings relevant to the Yarnell Hill Fire
“* * * * * *
As I mentioned, there are very very recent rumors currently circulating about audio or video recordings related to or actually from the Yarnell Hill Fire that are rumored to somehow be relevant to or relate to the Granite Mountain Hotshots, their tragic deaths, the decisions they made, or the events leading up to or immediately following such. My understanding (from a person who knows a person who knows a person etc.) is that Mayor Kuykendall is in the loop regarding these most recent rumors about the audio or video recordings at issue. The rumor mill suggests that the recordings might well be perhaps 40 or so minutes of continuous recording from a helicopter or vehicle (or a dispatch entity or emergency entity that was monitoring the relevant channels) on June 30, 2013. (all emphasis added)
Yes, she admits that these are “rumors” of the AFUE recordings. And that is repeatedly consistent with what we find from WFs, FFs, citizens, and other interested parties that possess or have heard these same (or similar) recordings.
Many WFs and FFs admit to hearing (and recording) these AFUE Air-to-Ground (A/G) radio recordings during the June 30, 2013, Yarnell Hill Fire that afternoon.
Any WF or FF with a cell phone or video camera carrying a radio or within earshot of a radio monitoring the June 30, 2013, late afternoon YH Fire A/G radio transmissions and with the sense to intentionally or inadvertently record them either still has them or had them and erased them or gave them to the alleged SAIT “Investigators” like the several PVFD FFs and others did. And never saw them again.
Likewise, FOIA Records Requests to SAIT Mike Dudley and others responded with the classic “no records responsive to your request.”
And how about GMHS Christopher Mackenzie’s sister that found his video camera in his personal effects returned to the family from the Maricopa County MEs. She brought it to the attention of her father (who allegedly made copies) who then allegedly gave the video camera to PFD WF BC Willis who allegedly gave it to the SAIT. Also never to be seen again.
The recordings are out there … just like the photos and videos of the June 30, 2013, afternoon Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor likely Firing Operation.
This is from our 2020 International AHFE paper titled: “Credible Evidence Continues to Surface Regarding a likely “Friendly Fire” Incident along the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor Area on June 30, 2013
“The authors concede to scarce evidence of the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area likely firing operation due, largely, to fears of exposing the truth. In the coming years, the authors will justly seek, examine, and release scores of current and future likely firing operation records. One enduring inquiry remains – when will those WFs, FFs, and citizens possessing anecdotes, photos, videos, do what’s right and courageously come forward?”
Truth will ultimately prevail where there is pains to bring it to light. George Washington
Be truthful; a lie implies fear, vanity or malevolence; and be frank; furtiveness and insincerity are faults incompatible with true manliness. Be honest, and remember that honesty counts for nothing unless back of it lie courage and efficiency. (emphasis original) Theodore Roosevelt
So then Woodsman ask Nowicki if she ever got the AFUE…
Really RTS. BSW? This is not blast past times is it.
Ugh
You have not a clue how she is nowadays…
I’m so confused. I’ll be in the background waving old glory & watching flyovers on video while tuning a couple of powersaws. Thank you for trying to clear things up for me.
Yeah I WIISH I could play THAT role … confused
Too bad to see you in such a role of dummified patriotic spirit vs. standing up and say PENSION OR NO PENSION … ENOUGH IS ENOUGH.
Instead I have to watch why Crabtree felt it was time for him to do what he is doing while JBird is walking around thinking to himself aloud… “housewife hiker” my ass…who the “f” is Joy?
God placed in my early life until now all the RIGHT people to be doing my role.
If I never had Mr Kemper for Law and Debate class, I could not be in this IM area. I am not a pc gal, What Sonny and I did pioneering was me.
If I did not have the friendships along the way … most I knew you all only saw as roles in movies and tv shows…I am their friend. Very rare I knew common every day folks.
I know the govt. world.
I do not want to damage or destroy the systems yet I NEED to stay with it until some are accountable for Criminal Negligence..
I will not be a housewife hiker role and plee dazed and confused.
I will step up and off the cliff and soar like an eagle.
Reason I am getting trained so I could familiarize myself with each system to see what is going on.
Shawna may decide to meet me soon at that conference probably with beefed up folks who resemble Gary and smile cordially or she may ignore me but I do plan on being me and respectful yet may leak some stuff to her or Vicki so they know my 2020 path I am not a shady person like others.
#hashtag #JayKurth #TruthYear #2020
Get your surgical masks Joy–there is more bad air than just that coming from the Forest group that sanctioned the deaths of the GMHS and made the ground hallowed in the name of a God ordained ordeal.
The coravirus is turning up in people that had no contact whatsoever with people infected or back from China and Japan. California, Washington and Oregon are turning up cases. And now the cruise ship cases are transferred to a hospital in San Antonio from the Lackland Air Force Base where they were quarantined. Official will not tell which hospital, which rightly ought to be told so people can evacuate and quarantine that hospital. It would put a crunch on their finances, but in America we worry about finances over concerns of the disease–at any rate you might want to avoid San Antone Hospital stays. What I can not understand is why they did not put these people on Bush’s ranch’s visitor housing, instead of the middle of a huge Metropolis like San Antonio? Well a ranch at least joining his–there is plenty wide open space there to keep it out of dense populated areas.
I had to look that up since I had figured the Texas place would be Fort Bliss since it is in the Trump hated refugees attempting to escape the drug war situation. But with the record of spreading you can be sure it is already in the area and we will be hearing about this disease there and everywhere regardless of where they quarantine the sick.
Those of us with lung , heart and immune depletion are the ones it kills. Especially the lung, since it attacks the lungs–maybe I have the slow acting variety since my lung power has been decreasing steadily. Anyhow, Gary and I are top of the list to be killed if we get it–best we use our masks.
This will be a good time for bank robbers so you might do well to avoid the teller and use the outside machines instead. Otherwise carry your pistol inside if you have a concealed carry permit and are game.
There is going to be a lot of consternation over this virus thing–Those 200 killed in Yarnell by retardant will now have an added killer to deal with. Yarnell is for the most part a retirement compound–why the retardant did so much killing there. But add the Corona Virus, another elderly killer, then you will wonder if the 400 or so left after the fire will dwindle to 200 or so. Well as the elderly die off, others purchase their homes and move in from the crowds to the town of RIP where the chem trails laden desert air meets the mountain airs of Yarnell.
The reincarnation of Edgar Allen Poe resides there–he is recording the Yarnell story in a new book, photos and all. Not for profit but to entertain the officials who propagate these horror stories.
How might you damage the system–it seems sick enough. Gary talks about the need for revamping the system–good housecleaning for one thing.
When a system is killing its people, then it is time to face the facts and do something to change what ails it.
Woodsman, this backs what DND has been saying all along and what people have been hiding. I had not seen this post–are you the first to post it on IM? Thanks because it confirms what DND has been saying all along. It also gives people that are afraid to post about the fire freedom to talk.
“Elizabeth Nowicki” is a very influential federal attorney and University Professor of Law. She would not state something on that order unless she had ample evidence to back up her query. I was happy to see she would seek more facts about those burns that we know had to happen.
We had seen the Shrine burn in action but that video was removed off line just as the June 16, 2013 official declaration of restriction to the highest level of fire danger for the section or half section that covered the very area that the GMHS perished in had been removed off the Forest Records on line.
Whether Elizabeth turned tail later or not I do not know since Joy was in contact with her and keeping tabs there. It seems that in both State and Federal circles that someone of her clout might have been silenced or warned from within. This was an incident that someone with a big G string did not want truth to be known.
I did not receive that email–but I understand–I don’t pussy foot around with what I know–It gets out there since I had witnessed first hand what they had done and knew it was insanity and a definite case of at least negligent homicide. You did not have to be a Professor of Law to see that.
So too many coincidences ain’t a coincidence. While I slept last night a few hours the number of nations that have the corona virus jumped from 47 to 60 and 2800 dead with 83,000 infected. Give me some slack, how can that spread that fast unless there is some methodical means to spread it. Person to person contact just does not make sense here.
The ones to worry are the ones Hitler would want dead first off–the people that have weak immune systems and the elderly that no longer can do slave labor. So if you have lung, heart or immune system issues, be certain take safety measures to protect your health.
China is going to get the blame on this one but I am not sure China is the only country involved here since this thing is also a world away from China in places like Brazil so quickly and wide spread that I would want to see more data. It just looks too suspicious and these days with attitudes and cover ups as profuse as we see them it might pay to be seeking the truth outside the main corporation controlled media.
Thanks, Charlie. I was confused about who had what information about the AFUE study. I absolutely believe all of that data exists somewhere. I’m on everybody’s side here, even with disagreements along the way.
I had to step away temporarily last night because of my research of the potential motives for 1 individual and their use of information surrounding the Yarnell Hill fire. It’s nobody currently posting here but the dots I’ve connected have kind of turned my stomach.
Thanks for all everyone is doing to do the right thing here. Carry on.
👍 🇺🇸
Woodsman
I will say one thing though that I do know for sure. Elizabeth Nowicki is a really bad person and Arizona Lizard CRAZY. I finally had to block her email address from my email account so she couldn’t send crazy and creepy messages to me anymore many years ago, and I have never done that with anyone else.
So…I don’t think anyone should communicate with her, you know…just FYI.
Gary said:
“I will say one thing though that I do know for sure. Elizabeth Nowicki is a really bad person and Arizona Lizard CRAZY. I finally had to block her email address from my email account so she couldn’t send crazy and creepy messages to me anymore many years ago, and I have never done that with anyone else.
So…I don’t think anyone should communicate with her, you know…just FYI.”
———————————————————————————————————
I have not found any area where Nowicki is a BAD PERSON.
I have not seen that.
I seen she said to so many we can feel safe in her space and for free she gave of her time using her professional platform to be there for all of us but Sonny can say FIRST HAND what the Prescott Mayor said to him with me present about what Nowicki was doing behind the scenes to the hikers, that was a shock for me but I would sit in person and talk and spend time with her to this day. We all have a role in this aftermath and she had hers. I think Sonny would talk to her too, right?
Sonny and I do not close our doors to anyone even the ones who (in)directly try to harm us … that is on them not us.
You didn’t get some of the emails I got rom her. She and I just didn’t hit it off very well because she always acted like Eric Marsh’s defense attorney from beyond the grave and not as a fact finder. Okay…you caught me again, she isn’t a bad person, but she is the only person I have ever blocked from sending me anymore emails.
Whoops…I temporarily forgot that I am making every effort to become a happier and more positive person. Therefore, I sincerely regret everything I wrote about EN and I wish to apologize to anyone who was offended by my my offensive and judgmental words.
I did as well an email cease and desist myself Gary years ago but if you got me and EN near Salmon River and Manning Bridge and no technology … I bet her and I together talking could bridge some gaps and not the one bridge affected by the teepee Fire but on many fires. However if word got out her and I are in person together…oh my…I would wear my safety bunking harness for the naysayers…they would not want to see that.
I was not offended
Just we all have different roles in this
I respect hers no matter if she is solo or a part to MacLeans team or whatever …
I do not like her hair too short or the length it was in 2018 and blonde…
I use to airbrush women and she has these amazing features
She has a 1947 to 1954 vintage flair I would bring out in her
I would pop her eyes to vintage soft business glam and shadow contour six areas so her face would create you to look at her eyes and lips and PAY ATTENTION.
many of us did not know how to perceive her … I have not spoken to her in so many years … probably the same time you and Bob Powers and Willis and Holly and MacLean and many of us just stopped communication yet she is our adjoining forces and so maybe we should have just paused knowing her and told her our stances of where she could fit in for each of us
I do not and have never seen anything that led to she is a BAD PERSON Ayer her behaviors could be perceived just as you stated … to me she was getting the hikers the cell records but that never took place … I got them on my own
Willis will be one we go over on June 30 2013 after I am all trained for this Fire Season. I find his interesting …didn’t you?
Hashtag #Kurth 2020 Truth Time
Typos
Too tired to fix
They are kinda obvious
Or not
Gee whiz, I already apologized for calling her a BAD PERSON. I’m a recovering reactionary…what can I say?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yggQ3HbO0Wg
And I’m pretty sure that if I was stuck on any bridge talking to EN…I would either throw her off it or jump off myself…or maybe both. So…
Oh…and one more thing. I was really off in my estimation regarding how many people the Spanish Influenza killed because I said I thought it was millions?
“The 1918 influenza pandemic (January 1918 – December 1920; colloquially known as Spanish flu) was an unusually deadly influenza pandemic, the first of the two pandemics involving H1N1 influenza virus, with the second being the swine flu in 2009. It infected 500 million people around the world or about 27% of the then world population of between 1.8 and 1.9 billion, including people on isolated Pacific islands and in the Arctic. The death toll is estimated to have been 40 million to 50 million, and possibly as high as 100 million, making it one of the deadliest epidemics in human history. Historical and epidemiological data are inadequate to identify with certainty the pandemic’s geographic origin.”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_flu
Of course that was before scientists could sequence the genome of viruses in a matter of weeks and therefore developed a vaccine in a matter of months (about 18) instead of years or never. So…
RTS
When can we have back the days of a lime in our corona beer vs a line on who’s next with the coronavirus?
Gary
You call it adventures
I call it HELL
Hanging with Sonny was filled with adventures
Nowadays the path I am may it be God’s
It does not feel so cozy and exciting
It feels very quiet and lonely and hard but it is the RIGHT THING TO DO
What are you views Gary on the virus
A political distraction?
I am way behind the Woodsman on everything he confused about, plus a bunch more. Everything, RTS, you, Nowicki, Rumor Control, and he are talking about are beyond me because all of those things are way out of my lane and my wheelhouse.
And as far as the Coronavirus goes, I am very worried about everybody cause it sounds bad. I avoid almost all people all of the time already because of the way I wheeze, gulp for air, talk kinda funny and COUGH A LOT. And it’s not because of an INFECTION, it’s just because of the tissue damage to my larynx and breathing, but especially talking, irritates it and then I cough more.
So now…everybody is going to be thinking I am like Typhoid Mary except that I am spreading around a deadly Coronavirus so they will think I am Typhoid Gary. So now I really have to avoid people and maybe I won’t even be able to go to movies except I always wait until have been out for awhile and then to the very first showing because of my cough and by doing that, there are usually only three or four people in the entire theatre. A few times I have been the ONLY one, which is kinda funny. Sitting there as the only person in a theatre makes me feel special like they are showing the movie just for me. 😂
I do know how dishonest people who work for the government are and how much they do everything they can to limit what is released to the public even under FOIA, which is why I do admire how much you have gotten and how hard Fred has worked and the money you have both spent to hold them accountable, but I do know they hold most of the cards and all of that sounds really bad and like this cover up is making all other previous cover ups look innocent by comparison. I don’t know what to do?
Although the Ancient Aliens TV show I watch thinks that sometimes aliens 👽 put a virus like the Black Death and the Spanish Flu that killed so many (millions I think) people like Sonny wrote about his dad stacking up like cord wood in WWI here on Earth to experiment on us, or for population control kinda like we do the unwanted pets of this world?. But however it got here including escaping from a Chinese boi research lab 🧪 I do think it could get really bad…maybe?
I’m kinda glad that I’m not living with a nurse anymore though. There are a lot of cases in Washington, probably because there are so many Asians who both live and visit that area. Health care workers are really in for a deadly period of time…maybe?
Right Gary- it does look like the stuff is moving world wide like gang busters and similar to the Spanish Flu ordeal of 1918. That infected 500 million people–about a third of the population of the world at the time. Between 20 and 50 million died from it. The US lost 675,000 people from that flu.
It does seem like ships and cruise liners are dangerous places to be trapped on and I could imagine a troop ship crammed with soldiers would be one place to avoid if contagious germs are aboard.
I do have to believe this designer corona virus is similar to the Spanish flu since it was being designed for war time purposes and perhaps it is a precursor of things to come. The US is hot on these virus productions with even a 1.25 Billion Dollar Type IV Lab due about 2022 in Kansas.
And as far as alien wipe outs–they did a good job with the flood a few thousand years ago–Well that is the ancient cuneiform clay tablet version–a few thousand years older than the Biblical version but very similar. Someone will say those tablets were made by the Devil. Well, maybe the Devil and his relatives in full Reptilian form. Call it what you will but I have to be open to all possibilities—Religion is something connected to state and made to control the masses. The Reptiles that run things love their methods and are quite clever in keeping themselves in control.
My thoughts, and I like what Woodsman says–we may not agree about many things, but we still all agree to the effort of getting the truth out about the deaths of the GMHS crew.
And yes Joy, I would speak with Elizabeth–she likely got gossip from some sources that were spreading rumors–like the stupid idea that we would be on the hill to snipe at someone? Is that what Amanda said–you see how people that are supposed to be sane can play the game either from imagination or by spite such as her taking you to court. So certainly we have all made mistakes–sometimes from hearing false information.
I had also heard that Elizabeth was going through a tough time–had come down with cancer. Was that told us some time ago and how would her health be now? My sympathy and you know the reason.
My opinion about the Amanda thing. To me it was obvious she wanted to discredit you and me–especially you since you were so good at exposing the lie that she wanted to continue about Eric Marsh. The State did everything to appease her since it was to their favor to make him out as an untarnished hero. I think she knew that you championed the drive to expose all the facts about the deaths of the GMHS for which her husband at that time was a major fuck up by killing the men. Then of course IM came into operation and then she had to discredit IM and all its contributors despite their high credentials–well above our own concening wild land fire fighting. We after all were only witnesses and civilians–the men posting here were saying the things that we saw in detail and you photographed–however their expertise put irremovable screws in the coffin and cinched it down good. No one can challenge their expertise and qualifications and their words have the weight needed to bring truth and understanding to the matter and is even continuing to do so.
But I say leave her in la la land.
I should correct that–I forgot you carry some kind of bat hide or hides concerning wild land fires. Not sure but sounds like you had a tough time at getting them. Now that took pizazz.
And that was Fernanda who had been managing editor of the NY times at the time and pressured to do a book in a few months. She had taken the long hike with us to see the area and get a feel for what the GMHS crew were doing and even took a course to get some details for her book. She did complete it in the time frame and sent us a signed copy. Joy could give a better summary and opinion of the book than I could–especially with the extensive research Joy has done and added her own studies and fire fighting qualifications.
I had said I hope Joy did not learn under those that mismanged the fire–I won’t take that back but on the other hand there were a number of good operators there-I am certain Brian Frisby and the Blue Ridge were one of the crews that deserved commendation, although I did not hear of it. Just to have the presence to save Donut was one commendation that should have gone out to Brian.
But it was obvious that some crews there either had no clue about wild land fire fighting or were terribly uninformed of the fact that GMHS crew had been ordered down into that trap. It seems that most believed they were in the black–and according to the reports we keep hearing Marsh was vague about anything he was doing.
I have to believe the reports that RTS keeps trying to get while the State and FS are working as hard as possible to keep them from him have a key to much of the nonsense the State and FS have been publicizing.
You have to realize the State and FS are spending bocoos of Tax Money to do that very thing. Lawyers are not cheap and love to work overtime on stupid shit for big pay in this case. That is sick when the million or so they are spending to keep RTS and the public in the dark would be solved with a few pages of information at less than a dime a copy and any recording can be set up on a disc that sells for about a dollar. But you can see these yahoos don’t mind wasting tax dollars on frivolous endeavors and in a big way.
Say, do not forget I worked for the State in a Mental Health Facility and those finance managers were no different. They would demand we spend as much as possible because they were afraid the Feds might doc the allowances given to that program if they did not max out things.
Yes I contracted for a year with the State of Texas where I worked as a counselor as a probation officer for first offenders. That lasted a year and it was a farce in a way since they were collecting $40 a head and wanted you to see as many offenders as possible in the shortest time. It was obvious you had no time to counsel people–it was more of a money game of collecting that $40 as often as possible during the day.
Did I really ever help anyone–I doubt it–we were pressed to move it on and the asshole boss I had was about as ignorant as you could get in a position like that you could get –maybe a GED but claimed he graduated from a high school. He had no compassion or understanding about counseling but he knew how to collect fees and scream at people and that was what made the highers happy. Feed the bank and screw the people.
Oh I am certain it is about the same only the fees are likely double now. But that is how government is designed–and you can’t really blame that boss–he fit right into the system perfectly. It was not about trying to help people it was about the dollars and the head count to make them.
So it is easy to see but hard to change some to the methods and ideas that people have.
If you really wanted to stop crime, take a big area like the Pecos area and fence it off for the dopers. Nothing wrong being a doper there and free for all you want. Can you imagine it would take billions away from the law enforcers and you would loose these fucked up movies where men in black masks bust down houses to arrest a bucnh of dope heads.. Instead some of those in the black masks that smoke weed and do a little recreational dope could go there and do their thing.
But the big drug war and muders and thievery would drop drastically. The Drug Lords would have to find some other occupation beside murder and pushing drugs across the country. The prisons would be hurting for prisoners because we suppied the offenders with free dope. The billions saved could be used for treatment facilities to those that finally go for treatment.
Marijuana plants could be farmed—and it would make America much much safer at a much much cheaper cost with the loss of life way below what it is now and crime statistics would drop greatly.
Some people actually do well on dope–Edgar Allen Poe, Ernest Hemingway, and the list goes on. I think Willy Nelson and Bill Clinton did fine although Bill had to lie about his shit because of the American public view brought on by propaganda. But why put these people in prisons when you could provide their pleasure and recovery instead of punishing them for something we call an addiction and sickness?
My opinions but now it is too big a business and business runs the world–the dollar is king and there are plenty profits to be made the system is set up. And think how the profits would dissapear for big Pharma–free dope and free Pharma? Don’t worry, they would figure a way to make big–they rule plenty of political hacks.
I used some of their dope when I was shot–lots of pain mostly from the pencil sized tube they insert to keep your lung blown up. So they have some fair stuff but rather see you suffer than give you enough.
I know, I am a bit radical–I used to haul wood to a FBI agent–and in those days the Alamogordo News would publish some of my radical views in the write in column. Something I would do by visiting the library and using their machines. He warned me since I was against the Waco thing the way they killed so many innocents when it would have been nothing to wait until Koresh was out and then grab him. But it had to be a Tobacco and Alcohol exercise fully armed with flame throwing Chrysler Tanks and a bunch of yo you black masks that bumbled like Keystone Cops and the managers of the Yarnell Wild Fire.
Dopers had killed this man’s son since somehow his son had gotten addicted and among dopers anything can happen. Anyway this FBI told me he took care of those involved and I understood what he meant–most of us will go to extremes at tiimes to protect our children.
But I did not listen–but he still bought wood and we did fine with our differing opinions. I would understand how he hated the dope dealers–but that is caused by the high price of dope these people do crazy things to get.
My opinion, I am glad you mostly disagree–It would be a drab world if we all thought the same.
I thought our adventures were the everyday thing. They will never compare to what is in store for the world though,
CDC (Cemter or Disease Control) is working on finishing the 1.25 Billion Dollar type IV National Bio and Agrio Defense operation on the Kansas State University campus. That University will be getting some of the nations top scientists–If your kid has the smarts and inclination to do germ war far projects, that will have the men with the know how.
This would be the facility that is being moved from Plum Island where the Lyme disease started with infected tics. The reason given by the government to move to Kansas is that terrorists might invade that Island, since it is off shore New York. So the Dummies put it right in the middle of the United States and can you understand that a virus such as Coronavirus would go like wild fire from that facility to all points in America. And what will make that facility any more safe than the Plum Island type I4 facility was considering the Lyme disease came from that facility and is named that since Lyme, NY is only 12 miles from said facility.
It is interesting that Plum Island was designed by the man under Taub–the Nazi death camp scientist and experimenter that CIA brought over under Project Paperclip. The Russians had used some of their Bio Warfare on the Germans during WW2 by spreading tularemia.
The UN has banned Bio Warfare, so why the great interest in creating patentable diseases such as the Coronavirus? Ebola is a patented disease and there are at least three strains such as one that is attached to the cold virus or another attached to the flu virus–the latter more incessant. So you can bet the US with its 16 type IV knows exactly what the coronavirus is and has its own variety and likely even the DNA replication of the Chinese variety.
I did notice that Iran has a great breakout of this disease–just about every country has–and how easily it is spread–just a fly over and a drop of a bag of this shit in any major city and there you have the new war of killing the masses without any one government getting the finger. However, the US with its billions and facilities 16 in the US alone, but CDC also has facilities in places like Angola and others in Africa and I am sure other locations. So they might get some finger pointing and perhaps rightly so from people that know all the facts.
With California now having over 60 cases and 8200 or so on watch, you can bet this will go nationwide. I think five or six of the cases have already left California for other parts after disembarking from their fun Cruise Ship ride that ended at Japan. Cruise Ships ought to have a beware sign, since they have diseases so often and if you are an agent doing the undercover Bio Thing, what better place to test out a newly formed virus or chemical?
For me, I would be inconvenienced with a surgical mask on one of those cruises, Carnovirus or not aboard–but CIA was good at experimenting by spiking drinks with LSD and other mind drugs–so keep with bottles of Guinness and carry it with you to the toilet. You might think I am kidding, but I told the story about friend Jerry Tefoya and his buddie Burke–they run in pairs for these experiments–and hard to believe but I got a dose of their experiment when I was tasting the good Irish Whiskey and had left the drink next to Burke on a toilet run.
Whew, that chemical he slipped in my drink does a mind trip you never want again and it started almost immediately.
I am amazed at the advances of science–buy your DNA kit on line for a hundred bucks and if you are fairly smart, you can make yourself some sort of freak animal. of choice.
So I do believe that it would be wise to have a few surgical masks around–at least that is what MarkRN of more than a decade of ER experience says and has done–for this Corona Virus invasion. The New World Order and the 140 nations and scientists thereof are of a notion that the world must be reduced to 800 million by 2030 might just be acting on their
premise. And if you think that is crazy thinking here are the statistics for WW2 just from a NAZI organization that wanted to start a New World Order. Think again if you do not believe there are despots in government that are not hesitant to repeat this to get to their final goal and ideas of what this world ought to be in their estimations.
10 million military dead, 7 million civilian deaths, 21 million wounded, and 7.7 million missing or imprisoned. Over 60 million people died in World War II. Estimated deaths range from 50-80 million.
As always, I do not want to read your private emails and I do not want you reading mine without permission and most especially being a sneak to get them–yet my own government with its multi billion dollar computers has every email and every post available in its cloud; and you can be certain I would be one of the first to go if a clone of Hitler with a better look and talk shows up and reads my posts–that is if one of his designer eugenic viruses does not get me first.
Maybe the fifth columnist is better situated–I just never was a sneak. Our founding forefathers were not either—they also knew they stood to hang for their cries for fdreedom and independence from a Tyrannical government.
Truly Sonny…every day was an adventure
20 / 20 … perfect vision ….. and this year is twenty twenty …. Things that were really messed up and foggy in prior years, out of focus, long time being disrupted or obscured or omitted will become “crystal clear” for 2020 and I know I pick on J-bird … but I more pray for him and it is this year he has to surrender and stop manipulating and stop CHANGING realities to fit some twisted narrative stirring in his mind.
Surrender sir.
INVESTIGATE COMPLETELY THE CAPLES RX AND SEE “WHO” DOMINOES BACK TO YARNELL DAYS…STOP THE LIES!!!!
🦍
Good thought for 20 20 Joy–the year of clear vision of the plans of the elite.
Reading the news just now–this virus has ripped through 47 nations–well all over the world as if it were in those chem trails I have been watching that are more active at night over day these days. But you only need a small amount of this virus to get it going and it moves fast.
I have to wonder are the eugenicists in action? And who can understand how such a virus that only a few weeks ago was in China is now world wide in a big way. I mean, yes this is a fast virus but places like Iran with already big statistics like 265 dead this quick?
That whistle blower that reported about CDC people that evacuated the sick Americans and others from Japan told that the evacuators were not wearing proper protection from the virus. That person was given the opportunity to either be fired or moved to a different location. Sounds like more government means as we saw in Yarnell–scare hell out of people by threatening their jobs. You just do not talk in government circles until you are retired or are a stickler to honesty. If you are honest and true to your principles, then you best hope you see no evil, hear no evil and speak no evil–either way you will certainly smell some evil.
So no wonder ;people keep mum–they are under the thumb of a system that has sick rules of engagement.
Meantime it is real–get your masks out and avoid the crowds and maybe even the chem trails. You might literally loose that 20 20 vision even if you understand in 20 20.
I should put that in perspective–Canada is just short ;of 38 million people. Because some despot and his minions believed in a New World Order, the death toll for their attempt was equal to killing all the people in Canada two times over.
When I hear the Bush bunch, the former presidents all talking about a New World Order I have to flinch. This is something the world bankers, the world Corporations and Oil Companies and Billion and Trillionaire interest people would love. This would give them the control over all nations and would establish a prison planet with their idea of managing this world to their own interests.
Consider that by 2050 half the jobs will be replaced by machine and robots. So half the workers will not be needed by that time. I suspect that more than half the jobs will be replaced–you even see that MacDonalds already has no need of a cash register person–just order off your phone right outside the door or on their touch the coronavirus monitor. Next will be the drive up window that you just pick up your order in a slot –no need to have anyone except a person to keep the machines working, and even those are getting to be more foolproof.
So you can see how the attitudes of the Ted Turner and Prince Phillip types evolve–what are they going to do with so many people ruining their environment? I can tell you they are not going to sacrifice themselves.
My own radical opinions–reminds me of the Forefathers attitudes.
My husband’s job was already replaced Nov 2019 to machines
The time is here
How tricky can these Corporate interests be–you only have to google Monsanto and read their history and that of their Corporate owners and managers to get an example of skullduggery quite common among all Corporate, Pharma, and World Banking Interests–follow the money.
Wars, diseases, bail outs, and all sorts of shenanigans have only increased the wealth of these interests. Few know that the Rockefellers were indicted for war crimes–they were serving both sides since there was money in oil either way–but they were not the only ones. These big corporate enterprises do not give a shit about human life–they make money from these wars and you can bet just as soon see a few million taken off the earth as not if there is profit to be made–and these days it may not even involve profits so much as it is that they believe this world population needs heavy trimming to save it for their dynasties.
But you can see the cleverness they have to take one the earth’s most deadly poisons–the former waste products of fluorides and convince people that adding these to your water will make it good. Shit, people fall for anything if they have not studied the truth of how these fluorides really work on human health.
Most countries in Europe have banned the fluorides in water. But the US loves the stuff–there is money to be made from sodium flouride and one of the world companies ILC out of Mexico is providing. You never know what ILC is a subsidiary of so the real company is hidden.
So those of you that like Flourinated water, there are 12 brands of plastic bottled water that contain the flourides. I don’t drink water out of plastic but would if I was dying of thirst. You have BPA in small residue to contend with beside the flourine so that ought to make the bacteria in you gut sick enough mixed with the dead and dying of the water.
The point bering, those you ought to be able to trust are not so trustworty–as the government FDA head officer says he would never approve a drug offered by an individual no matter how good it might appear to be–only Corporations that have the testing equipment and give him the reports are the ones he would approve. Strong statement, but true;
# hashtag #hashtag
Number Hashtag
#Caples RX
# Caples RX
Who’s professional backyard is it in that had ties with YHFire and still thinks to go to work versus taking early retirement?
I had meant to tell you I believe that a murder had taken place in that very bedroom of that place and I did see small blood splatter on the wall. So I was about to order a blood substance that detectives use to check for blood and before I had made an order was when this guy asked for more money from the Philippines–then I got my cash and moved out eventhough I had been renovating and a good lot of cash for flooring and the such.
Well I might go there and get one that purse and send it to you–psychometric works and I know you have that gift. Say I think my own psychic powers have much improved since Charlie shot me in the back.
Second thought–best to leave the purse there–someone might recognize it and it should not be tampered with if it were a crime situation but a photo and that I could send.
CORRECTION,
I misspoke a couple of days ago. The South Canyon Fire started out as simply SNAFU and then eventually evolved into FUBAR. I just wanted to get that right for the record.
CORRECTION, for the record.
I misspoke a couple of days ago. The South Canyon Fire started out as simply SNAFU and then eventually evolved into FUBAR.
Here is a copy and paste of an email I just sent out on the back channel that I want to share with everyone because it distills the problem we have been discussing here on this thread for years, which I really don’t understand.
“And of course the most basic and truly shocking truth of all…is that in all three cases, King, Czak and Marsh, those men killed those who they were responsible for to further and protect their own careers and selfish interests. And then that was compounded by more people, lots of them, who covered up those acts to both further and protect their careers, in addition to the reputations of the agencies who were involved. And in the case of the YHF, the USFS led that effort and as far as I know, they weren’t even directly involved in the disaster itself…which is really weird and inexplicable except for how evil man truly is at his very core.”
Oh…and one more thing.
You…Mike Dudley…you are an evil person.
You…Shawna Legarza…you are an evil person.
You…Darrell Willis…you are an evil person.
And the rest of you…you know who you are.
That is pretty crass
I have refrained from drinking the Kool AIDS yet you are wrong Gary.
I am on a signed contract so I am unable to speak freely about Dudley and I always said he speaks well yet his content and manipulation THOSE ARE BEHAVIORS OF DUDLEY’S not him the person that hold some danger for prior current and future WFs and FFs that engage in Wildland Firefighting.
Dudley was assigned a product.THE SAIR and as I am being trained Dudley and others have done exactly what they were trained to do by the agency. Avoid calling someone evil for doing that. I believe Dudley and almost all others tied to the SAIR product even Kurth who I hashtag time to time admitted it was not an Investigation but a “Learning Review”
Now, for Shawna … she has her history and in Gods time her and Vicki C. will be come to the forefront … and for Willis it has been shared with me that recent release off PRRs and FOIAs before I Ieft for the Academiy I sent to a lot of you that it validated Willis was less than forthcoming by miles and “his truths” are being shown for what they really are with proper documentation.
I am praying for you Gary. I am sorry you feel these people are evil. We all make errors and blunders …We just have to learn how to own them and they are still far away. Please stay the course and reveal always yet refrain from calling someone evil as much as humanly possible.
I understand your anger … I get that way with my hashtags at times because Caples RX should have never happened and I hope the people involved surrender and be truthful.
Give it to God and allow Him to work in their lives.
I have a lot of faith in my anonymous signed contract mentor
I believe he shared pure with me
I learned HOW the investigation was placed together behind the scenes
I am continuing to educate so we place it out proper
I am willing to share in person with MacLean and his team yet remember world early on they misjudged and Rumored me and all us here wrong. That sets the stage for red flag warnings. Why in ONE HIKE did they do what Charlie Mosley told me they did…from the start it all began and now I have many texts and emails to continue to prove which will likely be after Fire Season 2020 before I begin again looking there.
Now if you want to speak direct to Shawna she will be presenting at the Southern CA Foresters and Fire Warden Conference with Stephen Pyne and others.
RTS is pointing out the evil methods used by these individuals to skirt the truth–It is sick when people know the facts and play their game, Certain we all were sad, even to tears and heartbreak, but to play a game of deception denies the problems that caused the deaths. These men need to say what really happened–all safety procedures and common sense were forfeited and men were sent into a known gamble for their lives needlessly and with reckless abandon. There is no reason to lie to protect the reputation of a few and not address the true reasons for those deaths–especially when they know the reasons. Whew, Gary is right on with his statements of evil.
I said everything I had to say about the second Battlement Creek Fire to Shawna in 2006 in Grand Junction. Everything I have to say about her and to her now, I write on IM so there is a public record of it.
There are a lot a lot of people both both within and outside of the wildland firefighting community who have participated here over the years who have created problems for those who want to cover up the truth. But…Fred and I pose a unique problem for them. Together…Fred and I despite our differences, make a pair of bookends that encompass everything they value and hold dear in our backgrounds.
Fred of course was the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history and I am the youngest hotshot crew boss in history who also founded a hotshot crew that is still fightin’ Fire today. And we are both former U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew Bosses so they can’t write us off as somehow coming from, or being outside the system. We were and in many ways still are…the system. We are them.
And we are both in a position to put our names and resumes behind what we say. Together…and even separately, there is no one in the nation, or maybe the world, who can diminish our service or the contribution we made in building Our House. I’m afraid it cost Fred more than it cost me because he was still a part of their AD fire overhead and they were able to deny that to him…I think?
But they can’t do anything to hurt me because they don’t have anything I need or want from them except for some changes in how they take care and protect the lives and health of the firefighters in their care. And of course to bolster my own FIRE creds, even though I served as a hotshot crew boss for a far shorter time than Fred did, I was also an Assistant District Fire Management Officer, a Forest Dispatcher and Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator finishing up my 15 years with the USFS as the Chief Law Enforcement Officer on the Santa Fe National Forest.
Now…I can be deservedly criticized for some of the language and tactics I use, but I spent so many years living on the reservation under their thumbs with everything depending on successfully passing a very intrusive background investigations every few years, I am enjoying being off the reservation and having a little fun along the way. If they don’t like it…they should sue me.
And as far as John Maclean goes…he wouldn’t make a good pimple on either Fred’s ass or mine. And both he and Shawna Legarza, in addition to Mike Dudley and Darrell Willis just to name a few, can all line up and kiss my ass.
Because this is what their problem is; they may not like what we say, or how I say it, but between Fred and I, we have done it all and nobody can school us about anything related to wildland firefighting. Now…there are lots of people out there as good as we were and still are, but there isn’t anybody better than us and if anyone is confused about that…please see our resumes because they are second to none.
Oh…and one more thing. I retired with 30 years of federal service as a Supervisory Criminal Investigator (Sr. Special Agent) working for the Washington D.C. Headquarters Office of my agency at the same salary as a GS-15. So…
And counting my health benefit package that will stay with me until I die, I make right at $100,000 a year in a pensions. And in this business, your GS grade and salary mean everything to people like LeGarza and Dudley because they sold their souls to the Devil for theirs. I didn’t, I managed to walk away with my integrity and that is something they can never do. Oh…and I retired at 56. So…
Whoops, I was 54 when I retired…on my own terms and at a place of my choosing. Of…and I had five (5) fully paid for transfers to jobs in cities of my own choice that includes buying and selling houses on either end. I won’t tell you how much each one of those moves cost the U.S. taxpayers because well…it is quite shocking. But Legarza and Dudley know about how about much each move cost with a family. 😎
Actually, I will tell you how much you paid to move me around during my career because of my value to the federal government. It was more than one million dollars ($1000,000). I owned some nice houses that cost a lot to both buy and sell. It I was worth every penny of it. 😂
So, don’t respect me…or my old buddy RTS, even if he was a slacker on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1980 high up in the Wasatch Mountains. It finally snowed us out in July. ❄️ ⛄️
My Whites were frozen whenever I woke on that bitch (non gender specific).
Clarification,
And when I mentioned my government subsidized insurance, I was talking about Fed Blue (which is part of BC/BS). And I now have my Medicare on top of that.
Okay…I do feel a little bit guilty, which is why I have always written how much I appreciate what you, the taxpayers did for me and why I still feel like I am working for you. I am trying to pay you back (with some interest on your investment in me) and I will give away my Case Report on my FIRE career and the fires I keep writing about as a free download. So…we’re good…right?
The greatest and true book concerning the Yarnell Fire deaths has its pages being written right here on Investigative Media by those men that worked the fires and their crews for decades. This book of truth has been going on for 7 years with few revisions but many additions as new details and facts appear.
It is no book hastily accomplished with monetary gain in view–it is a pro bono work, freely written and freely given from people with credentials few can equal.
The language is bold at times but appropriate to the frustration of the many road blocks and purposeful attempts to keep the truth hidden, yet the book and its truth will not be denied.
Whoops, I got hot enough to be fucked on that one and I made a couple of real boo boos.
I said everything I had to say about the second Battlement Creek Fire COVER UP to Shawna in 2006 in Grand Junction. Everything I have to say about her and to her now, I write on IM so there is a public record of it.
So, don’t DISrespect me…or my old buddy RTS, even if he was a slacker on the Murdoch Basin Fire of 1980 high up in the Wasatch Mountains. It finally snowed us out in July. ❄️ ⛄️
No you had it right
Hee hee
Not retired Gary–you are still working on a case pro bono. but one of the most important in wild land fire fighting history–the deaths of 19 GMHS wild land fire fighters at Yarnell.
Thank you Sonny, I like to believe I am giving back in some small way to the job (way of life) that gave me so much. 😎
I have actually heard all the above from your peers
They feel the same
🇺🇸
https://youtu.be/muda6LPMhj0
USA! USA! USA!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=DI4Z7Dq6Q1g
https://youtu.be/qYscemhnf88
USA! USA! USA!
Oh look…it’s Legarza and Dudley hiding in the tree line from their troops!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XRkmOzL9dJ4
I do have some great news for Maclean and his investigative specialist and fiction writer who specializes in creating Alternative Facts out of thin air while promoting outlandish theories using nothing more than randomly photographed stabs from ghost P-Lines and by playing poorly recorded messages embedded within radio transmissions backwards while high on crack cocaine though, redrum…redrum…redrum. And that is none other than “retired” NPS Wildland Firefighter Holly NEIL, who it is has been verifiably reported actually saw a small wildfire once from a safe distance that was contained within the boundaries of a National Park they were letting burn in an effort to improve the habitat of the endangered Rio Grande silvery minnow.
Silvery minnows are now critical to White House Operations because President Donald Trump began early in his term to have his White House Chef and kitchen staff prepare and serve them to visiting delegations from various third world countries that lie between the Indian and Pacific oceans in Southeast Asia and Oceania.
Anyway…even though neither Maclean nor his team can be associated with anyone from the Investigative Media wildland firefighter safety blog, we nevertheless have a wide range of Subject Matter Experts from all walks of life led by the most advanced life form to ever visit our planet Earth from outside of the Milky Way Galaxy that contains our own Solar System. The one…the only…the legend…drum roll please….HAL 9000! And it is expected that our team will eviscerate whatever claptrap dime novel Maclean eventually creates with his literary license to dress lies up as the truth and sell them to the public…line by line when he tries to milk the latest cow like his daddy Norman taught him to do rather than working for a living like real wildland firefighters do.
This concerted effort of collaboration will in our attempt to outwit skillful and practiced deceivers. This is because we know countless wildland firefighters have read “Young Men” and “Fire or Fire on the Mountain” in addition to other fictional narratives about additional deadly fires like the Esperanza. And this is because we know that WF just automatically accepted the work in them as truth since those dime novels are constantly talked about and referenced to this day.
Manufactured “truth” is what it is. MacLean has his motive and we few are a thorn in his side that will continue to make it very difficult to pull the big lie off this time. Look how fast some books did came out and even a bullshit movie about Yarnell and Granite Mountain IHC. These assholes are good at what they do and it’s been perfected for decades. “They” prohibited the local Ranger from giving testimony in the Mann Gulch Fire hearings and the exhaustive and tireless work by Dr. Ted Putnam is finally revealing the truth about that fire after decades of lies, deceit and cover ups. God Bless America!
USA! USA! USA!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hG5IthS242A
USA! USA!! USA!!!!!!!
Some corrections and additions are in order based on what Dr. Putnam has revealed, including that the Ranger was the one that lit a “friendly fire” underneath the SMJs and that’s what overran them. It was not from spot fires as alleged in the original report or Board of Review.
On Mann Gulch, Ranger Janson was, in fact, allowed to testify and did so.
However, keeping with the conclusion first, then fact concept … (1) Janson had to testify first, (2) did not have to face the witnesses or the jury, and the key one … (3) nobody was allowed to contradict his testimony.
Therefore, Mann Gulch may have been the genesis of the conclusion first then facts to support the preconceived conclusion concept.
In addition, Dr. Putnam pointed out to the author and alleged historian John Maclean that he had as many as FORTY + inconsistencies, errors, and inaccuracies that were never corrected.
And HN, who admits was part of the 2000 Los Alamos debacle but she will unlikely reveal that the burn module also used aerial ignition in the form of a helitorch which clearly was a big part of why their RX burn became a wildfire.
It’s amazing that Maclean and company believe, that they and only they, have the right to tell the story about the YH Fire. And that is based on something that occurred on Saturday was instrumental in the deaths of the GMHS on Sunday afternoon. WTF?
Safety matters, however, the truth matters more to learn complete lessons.
Thanks for the clarification, RTS. I knew it was a scripted proceeding but I didn’t recall the details.
USA! USA! USA!!!
And isn’t it a shame those famous wildfire novels are full of bovine feces? I think they were a component of pushing a false narrative and covering up the truth by those in power by design. Think of all those good people hoodwinked. Funny thing is, as much as I love fire and as much of my identify has been formed by it over the years,……ive never read any of them! Not one! Do I possess one super-duper high-speed bullshit detector or what??? Haha
Woodsman
Thank you for correcting what I wrote, I haven’t been following the developments in the Mann Gulch Fire, I was just generally aware there were some significant ones and that Dr. Putnam is doing some great work there.
As I have written many times, I have limited capacity which doesn’t extend very far and sometimes not at all beyond the task I have assigned myself to work on and of course that is the through story and connecting data points between the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires and how those fires affected hotshots. As we all know, I love and respect all wildland firefighters, but….
I just don’t like anyone dismissing or disrespecting us, but especially you Fred because that is reserved for the Woodsman and myself to do. And as I have written many times, you are the best current Subject Matter Expert when it comes to the current status of wildland firefighting safety, where we are at and where we need to go. And if you aren’t, you know who is because you interest and expertise is wide ranging and comprehensive, whereas I prefer to keep my head down and focus on the chunk of line directly in front of me. Other than that, I defer to others, but especially you,
They had not better pick on Joy either….cause that makes me mad.😡. And we all know that when I get mad…I type a lot with my one finger on my iPad…really fast! Actually, I can still type the correct way, but I when I am working on my laptop for real, so I don’t want anyone worrying me…I’m goin’ be okay. 😎
The old days are over when grunts didn’t have a say…we just need to educate them that their world has changed and to accept it.
USA! USA.! USA! 💥
And yes Joy, you are right, evil was to strong of a word to use because that requires them to “profoundly immoral and wicked.” and they aren’t that.
But…at some point after they have had the opportunity to learn that what they are doing is profoundly wrong and it is causing harm to others and they don’t change their behavior, I think what they are doing is evil.
I know that people have an unlimited capacity to rationalize their behavior and actions, and I think a lot of that has been going on for decades now, but…
And for everyone who says that we can’t change the past, or what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire and what happened in the aftermath of the fire in terms of the SAIR created by the SAIT. I agree with them, but I’m not trying to change the last one, I’m trying to change the next one.
Gary
Yeah year after year each firefighter who has been fed the lies when I sit with them in person and just be me not some facade like others have done and share they will tell me they are sincerely apologetic for years they were told another version on the hikers and the YHFire yet my sharing of the truth made sense where what others said never made sense to them or they never really looked into it and just felt bad for the families based on what was being said about the hikers and disliked the hikers. I have enough folks I could reverse and go for defamation and win out of county. I do not trust the county I live in to be unbiased as I saw what they did the first time. I also could post a 2013 letter from one of the loved ones where they say if everyone knew everything they would hate the DivA. I think that was a beginning red flag for me in my search of understanding of the YHFire. Evil exists especially in the aftermath of the YHFire and much heavy Spiritual Warfare. We all have our places in this. The disappointing part was when certain people tied to MacLean were using their role unwisely and hopefully they have changed since but much damage has been already done. I forgive all of them. I know much demonic influence has happened to many truthsayers / truth tellers even death and divorces and job losses. I was just stating when Dudley was notified to be in the SAIT it was because one person knew him and as well knew Karel and felt a trust both personal and professionally to provide a possible predetermined product in my humble opinion yet in my humble opinion a certain family who lives on the outskirts of Yarnell who’s loved one died June 30 2013…you received a unique path I would hope one day my fella contracted person will let me share some ironic moments. I always liked Dudley and how he speaks yet the content can be perceived as dangerous. I would not say he is evil yet his behavior(s) may be perceived such way and he has a duty to the world to explain his “character” role as well as Vicki and Shawna and too many others including Troy and GS but maybe just maybe me sticking to Caples RX then those Yarnell answers will come to fruition because I pray God’s Will be Criminal Accountability on the RX which some will go holy shit Joy…thank you for keeping at it. I do aim for serious jail time for any person right now hiding truths on Caples RX or more so the Overhead to be investigated and come to me so I can show you point of origin … the real time process … the cluster fuck drop of retardant in one of CA main regional watershed…the list rolls on…I am excited to meet Shawna but many do not even know like in 2018 with Maclean’s presentation they are trying to discuss restricting questions section…I do my best to watch every action and how do I being one person and training like I am…I also get to see Karel in a few weeks at a conference…So far, this year has been be my biggest training and educational year and God willing it will keep continuing.
Don’t be mad either Gary if they pick on me
Sonny and I were placed on the Weavers for a reason
Any evil or ill intent action of others will be theirs accountable to God
I am okay.
It does get frustratingly old when google alerts shows yet another slanderous piece come out public yet the recent one was on RTS not me.
He has to have now the Supreme Court review it.
Meanwhile I will be using my old request and placing some specific new ones requiring them to produce the ownership transfer paperwork of when the state supposedly got the YHFireAFUE transcripts and audio and those signatures. I also am talking with some on Criminal action on the individual vs the entities. It is a PROCESS…it is not done yet. Those judges failed. The USDA over a year before Fred’s FOIA request gave me YHFfire AFUE records and documents so how is it over a year later they did a reasonable search and found ZIP but I got what I got showing they preserved them. Bad actions of the judges. Bad. It’s a farce.
It makes me want to believe that the YHFire coverup has now reached the highest levels of our government and will Woosdman cheer USA USA USA on that…?????
Oh by the way … have you ever had to drink Whole Milk, Pepsi and jelly in a glass? I am just curious.
Joy said:
“The USDA over a year before Fred’s FOIA request gave me YHFfire AFUE records and documents so how is it over a year later they did a reasonable search and found ZIP but I got what I got showing they preserved them. ”
I say:
So……..do you have possession of the AFUE transcripts from the YHF that is complete, including the A2G frequencies?
I am cheering the independent true-seeker spirit of all Americans who are doing the right thing by finding the truth of what occurred at Yarnell in order to maximize learning from it and to minimize the likelihood of it happening again.
So…..USA! USA!! USA!!!!
I am unable to give you an answer to that Woodsman
I do know and shown on my post I have the emails showing they preserved them.
All my records has still not been reviewed
You do know I am one of the largest scope requesters to date and so you really ask a question I yet cannot answer but you can ask for all the records I asked for and see if you find it faster
Very few have seen my storage area but the ones who have peaked at it call it a gold mine but too overwhelming
To me it is just too much for one person
I have select few helping me nowadays
My focus is the deceivers … and getting educated to make sure before I go public I GET how it all works so I do not mislabel folks then on some off times focus to records but yeah my focus is to filter out the insidious ones and I pray their covering ups are Criminally accountable SOON so they can enjoy accountability once and for all.
USA USA USA 🇺🇸
I think this is a global concern now.
hashtag # Jay Kurth’s professional backyard CAPLES RX
You disappoint me, J-bird big time.
Joy,
No problem. It just sounded like you may have the complete AFUE Yarnell records and that was what you were saying…and I don’t know unless I ask, so…
Thanks!
Only if I break the seal on the original container and I know the verifiable history of the glass. And it certainly sounds like you are busy, I get tired just reading about your adventures.
We shall see if this Los Alamos debacle correction falls into its proper place below.
The Santa Fe Fire Staff had warned the NPS Burn Module (with HN) repeatedly NOT to light any prescribed (RX) burns. That obviously fell on deaf ears because they lit it off and were having control problems within 30 minutes! And continued to treat it as an RX Burn for days until the forecast Cold Front came trough and blew it all to s**t.
The truth of what occurred is contrary to the “official” report stating that they lit it as the cold front approached.
The SNF Fire Staff wrote a detailed paper on the debacle and presented it to a bevy of NPS big shots who declared it was full of lies and “bulls**t” and demanded that it not be released to the public.
When challenged, the NPS big wigs could not defend themselves.
And who but a known entity from the future YH Fire, Mr. Tom Zimmerman , stepped forward and quashed the release of the truthful report to the public.
The Cerro Grande RX Burn had escaped and was still being attempted during the wildfire suppression efforts and that’s when the HELITORCH OPERATION took place.
Incredibly, they used aerial ignition to fire off a problem area known as a “dog leg” a bend in the control line.
So then, rather than mop it up, they lit it off – with a friggin’ HELITORCH no less.
So much for Air Support, ey. Watch Out #19, Death From Above!
Tom Zimmerman
Richa Wilson
Brent Wachter
Tim Foley
The conference call the hikers received August 2013 via Mike Dudley bridging it…
Go Zimmerman.
I will have to find that interview audio for u RTS
to hear Zimmerman.
I was awoken by unusual noises
Back to sleep
I get up in a few hours
Long ass weekend
One of the best writers was an opium addict. That would be Edgar Allen Poe–but he was only good at writing fiction. I don’t know if crack cocaine suits well for fiction, but I would have to guess it might conjure up some wild illusions and imaginations in any mind.
Thoreau was a non fiction writer–ON Walden POND–he did no drugs and was quite sober and did well writing his adventures and solitary existence. He included much wisdom despite his British way of looking down on the Irish at the time. Sometimes the dumb asses are those that keep looking down.–but he was one that was not dumb–and quite astute at understanding and expressing things in a real way.
Reality can be more interesting than fiction, but reality sometimes seems to be a fiction–especially when you see the results of FS and state investigations into wild fire deaths.
In truth we are but a hologram–but the manager of our hologram has had a few billion years to perfect his grams. We have had only perhaps 60 and not doing bad by putting the Virgin Mary above Cuba. That was about 60 years ago during the Cuban Crisis–so you can imagine the technology has greatly improved.
If you see saucers and little strange soldiers only 3-4 foot high, then you have to consider were they army TS-12 technologies or real. There are both versions running around–except in my own ordeal, there was a missing time element and a distance of 20 miles and the Zombie trance. I have scratched my head on that one more than once. However, if I got one of those implants, Charlie might have messed that up with that lead star system floating around in my chest. Number 8 is small shot but it makes a big hole if you get shot point blank.
Then did I go into a star gate or portal by going down that tunnel at such a high rate of speed after looking 6.5 units of blood? The body only holds 7 units so I was running on empty–and who was the person that replaced my blood? I hope he/she was intelligent enough since I needed a boost there, being a bit on the slow side.
Well was I going though a portal, to hell or what? I have already been to Hell–Dolan Springs qualified for Hell or Purgatory in all ways–the whole State of Arizona qualifies as well. It even has a number of Ghouls and Goons. So you got a damn good chance for Heaven if you live there–you have done your Purgatory.
The sweet hills of New Mexico where the Deer and Quail stay. Quiet in Sawmill Canyon since the Sawmill has long dismantled. Only the ghost of Leonard Granado, the woodhauler of old haunts that canyon. He has joined the headless horseman that he told visited his dugout cabin. The horseman would at midnight ride in on his white stallion and say Hello there in that hole, then through his dingy window Leonard would watch him ride away.
Leonard was serious–but I wondered how a headless horseman could talk. But then there are many things that I have seen through the years to cause wonder.
I tuned into news just now–Bloomberg giving his political speak. He says the 3000 lost–that was due to terrorists out of the Middle East. Just like others he can not say the fact that those were all Saudi’s right out of Saudi Arabia–too much money and oil there and Saudi money in Washington spread among those that count. Remember the Saudi’s were the only ones allowed to fly out during the 911 disaster.
Bloomberg followed saying it was not religion but terrorism involved. He dare not tell the truth that these terrorist were religious zealots forwarding thier beliefs that the US is the great Satan and needs to be destroyed–Islam is another religion equal to the Idea that Hitler had–there is only one supreme religion that God wants on earth–all infidels need to be eliminated–why you saw but little objection to the Twin Tower ordeal by Islam and the little that was done had to be feigned. They like others can play the sneak and pretend and do to forward their progress at making Islam the world’s final religion. CIA , Mosad, law enforcemnent, forest service investigations of deaths, et. al, will agree to the theory that the ends justifies the means. It allows much leeway in the use of subterfuge and deception.
But to me it is better to call it like it is. That Islam religion is not a good thing in any country that is predominate other oriented. Germany, France and others that welcomed and invited that religion in for a big toehold have not to contend with it.
should have been have to contend with it. Islam head bumping to Allah is not my thing–and I don’t see killing all those Islams because they are infidels to Christianity–though seems like someone is delivering them some carnovirus–maybe God or the gods that be.
Joy since you do not have a laptop for email–I do know you have uncanny Psychic ability, something that will be of great help in your investigative endeavors. I know you had seen Marsh in a community meeting–and I believe he must have something to tell you.
I know other Psychics have stood back when talking to you saying that you needed no training–you had better abilities than even the professional practicing ones. I believe you have those abilities as well since I have known you and even though I also had premonitions that day–remember some of the things I was saying to you–and you would know and also my own reaction that we had to move from that spot.
What I am getting at is if you were to touch an item of his or even perhaps some other means that works for you, then you would be getting some information that he wants known. For whatever reason, you are the single person he wants to contact. Of course, I am a believer in Psychic abilities–science has proven these through quantum mechanics and for the religious minded–there are gifts of the spirit. If you do not believe you block them off. And yes I know, some will say it is kooky and of the devil and all sorts of crap they have been taught by jerk offs that do not know better.
I would indeed want to know your reading–and I can tell you what you find would make people’s hair stand up in some cases. Be aware that many police forces use Psychics and sometimes even accuse the Psychic of being a suspect for being so accurate in their readings.
What would you expect me to say–I have been down the tunnel so I know there is a universal connection.
I met Eric Marsh in 2011
Remind me to tell you about that time if I did not
I’m about to sleep
Another time.
Yes Joy, I was very interested what you had gotten from the Eric Marsh reading. I had tried to understand much as to why he did what he did, because it was so obvious that he had insisted on a death route and I believe if you had inquired you would have gotten some information–but then perhaps you had not asked when you saw him.
When we went to the triangle I had wanted you to see the place where I had actually laid up the money to buy on escrow and then the guy reneged and then wanted another $1500. So I got my money back and eventually wound up here.
That guy had left that place and moved to the Phillipines–he was into illegal marijuana sales and growing there–and you could see it was an excellent area to do such and illegal activity. I still have his indoor grower light–he grew his plants in a storage unit. I am not a fan of marijuana but I think it does likely have cancer curing properties, else the government would not have patents on it for carcinogenic and nuerodisorder remedies.
We were fortunate that we did not get stuck and good Scott and RTS had 4×4–but I had wanted you to visit near that place where I had found a couple shoes and a ladies purse strung out along a dirt trail almost never used. I had premonitions that these were part of a murder and that also it was connected to that property and that man that moved to the Phillipines.
He had complained a lot how people had ripped him off and you could feel his anger and I had somehow the intuitive feelings he was involved and this shoe and purse thing were connected. Of course this is only my gut reaction and I would not give his name publicly but I had wanted you to go to the scene where I had found those items. The had laid there about a few years and could be said to be about the time he departed to the Phillipines.
For some reason he had one deep hatred for the police and sheriff of that county–but being a weed grower and working illegally might have been his reason.
Now if you want to grow weed, New Mexico allows it with a doctor’s paper and I think an $80 piece of paper from the state–you can do it but only a few plants and for your own use. I am sure you could go into business if you divide the proceeds with the state on a different level.
Some do not understand but the dead cry out for justice and truth –something I felt there and something I know you and others feel about the 19 dead GMHS. It is especially strong when someone is killed and the body and truth hidden from loved ones.
If you do happen by again, then perhaps the weather will permit to get to that place–those items should be in place but not approachable during rains as we had the day of the alien triangle.
Elite–when I speak of the ruling elite it is meant those in the ruler class of this earth–they constitute less than one tenth of a percent of the population yet have over 40% of the wealth. Most of these people are low key individuals –though a few of the Rockefellers are well known and some even appear to have a degree of altruism. If you are in the billionaire class it is wise to make good appearances public wise.
Money rules the world, it is the source of power and prestige Those that have the puppet strings are also those world people that have many puppets to manage. And the knowlege they learn, the armies and political people they direct is mostly indirectly and unknown –puppeteers.
These are the gods of mammon that are able to make wars and make profits at the same time. They are the unseen gods for the most part and their bloodlines align with the great religions in their continual control of the masses.
Hitler and his NAZI’s had no conscience to sacrifice millions and even his own people to what he considered a higher objective–that New World Order –so convincing was he that just about every country has professing and practicing NAZI’s.
The Islamic countries and the Catholic countries supported his ideals. Even Ireland kept nuetral. And of course the NAZI escapees were protected and hidden in all South American Countries. Those NAZI believers that were brought into this country by Operation Paper Clip were set up to run things such as our missle programs, developing the Atomic Bomb, running CIA programs of mind control and other scientific projects. The German technology and scientists were valuable assets but did mostly carry their NAZI beliefs to the end.
Well we would not have the nukes and likely Russia would have since they too had NAZI scientists, although if it is true they only stole the nuclear bomb from us through a guy that was executed for giving that secret knowledge away.
It is a bit ironic that a NAZI actually headed up our Bio warfare program–set it up. Taub had worked the death camps, so why not–he had knowledge of what diseases and chemicals would do useing real human subjects.–not mice, rats, guinea pigs, dogs and the like. I think the CIA did quite a bit of follow up on human subjects at his example–well in truth they did and were found out. Some people went through horror stories as being unwitting subjects to some of these experiments.
Is it OK to kill a few of us to save a bunch. The scientists did not mind at the Nevada Test Site–they knowingly doused people with fall out–our CDC people did not quit playing with the black mans health after lying to him for years that he was being treated for Syphilis. A whistle blower there –I wonder how long he lived after that revelation.
In America it is OK for law enforcement to lie in order to get a criminal conviction. In Europe that is mostly banned–even in England where you would expect the crown to be using the rack and every possible tactic to extract confessions. But I think if you practice lies then it becomes a habit so that just like when I saw on the News a bit ago two prison guards beating a blind folded black man tied to a chair had become OK to them.
That black man had a psychotic break so because he was verbally insulting a guard he was tied to a chair and beaten in a way that could have killed him. Yet the one guard only received 10 days jail time. I have to believe that law enforcement should be men of integrity–you do not have to develope the habit of being a liar in order to convict –if you do you lower yourself to the level of a criminal and I believe your habit to convict will have you convicting innocent people only on your belief that person is guilty. And what is to keep you from lies in court even?
Even worse, it has bled over into the system so that no matter if you are a politician or a law man or even a government floor sweeper, you might find yourself having to go along with the lie.
Will you men of good honor and integrity that have managed your teams at wild land fire fighting be able to change the system? Something that has ingrained itself so deeply into a system for so long–(talking now of Dr. Putnam’s revelation of the Mann Gulch situation of a Ranger gone bad but covered up with lies). I do have to wonder? Yet is the effort worth the effort?–absolutely since if a man can not stand for truth then he belongs to the criminal elements that would deny the truth. And more so, it is imperative to represent those men who can not speak from their graves-yet they depend upon their fellows to speak the truth for their sake and their families sake.
Sonny,
Yes indeed, it is every bit worth the effort because an honest man must stand for truth otherwise he becomes one of “them” who denies the truth.
And yes, we must represent those young men who can only speak from their graves via the Mackenzie video, and others hidden as well as text messages, GPS units, etc. and yet to be revealed. They and their family, friends, and loved ones, albeit reluctantly, must depend upon their fellow WFs and FFs and others to speak the truth for their sake.
I’m including a couple links: one of the secret operations inflicted on the American people from Wikipedia and the YouTube video “Loose Change.”
Covert CIA Operations
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CIA_controversies )
Loose Change 2nd Edition (HD) FULL MOVIE
( https://youtu.be/lKO5t3rcIZU )
I wish I could write more
Just about to sleep
YES I have received important data touching something Eric touched from June 30, 2013 so you are right there…God has shown me such
I know it because you had seen him after the fire while he was among some people. Let me know about that too. For some reason I needed to let you know although time is infinite and undefinable in the spirit sense–it matters in this dimension.
If there is one thing I can tell you about the life of a miner, logger and cowboy, a sixth sense has saved me more than a few times. In some jobs it is almost a must, especially those that have no rules or rhyme or reason, Procedures, yes and safe as you can actions.
The uranium drift (tunnel) I was injured in when working for Standard Oil of Ohio (SOHIO) near Seboyeta, New Mexico was caving. This drift was on the 900 level and ever so often there were cave ins happening and slabs falling. These were especially at crosscuts–where two tunnels intersect.
Because early miners were being paid a $1 a bolt, some fudged and instead of the required 6′ tunnel bolts and longer 10′ bolts at crosscuts, they would install 4′ bolts. Well it increased their pay but was not what should have been properly and safety required done. So of course those short bolts in sandstone just were not holding ground and even 6′ bolts could cave but not as dangerous. And of course cross cuts are very much open ground so longer bolts are needed there. Bolting a crosscut that had already caved some slabs that would make a man look like a big pancake had already fallen. So when I started drilling the vibration brought more down and generally my instincts and even then were on but the wet and loose rubble somehow caught me enough I got smashed. Fortunately I had jumped back enough I did not get the full slab but enough to completely disable me so that after two weeks in bed I had to demand the hospital.
Sandstone that has the uranium is laid down in slabs and at 900 ft drilling a face you can even have them jump out at you on occasion. The worse of course is that above you since unlike hard rock, it can not be sounded to see if it is loose ground and needs to be barred down. So in Uranium mining everything has to be bolted with wire mesh–identical to the stuff you see around prison yards if you ever get that close.
The tunnels in mining are made in squares at different levels. When the tunnels are mined out, then it is time to pull pillars. Next to raise mining, pillar pulling is the most dangerous job you can have. You go in and drive angled holes on the sides of the drift, blast that off and pull that ore and muck back into an ore chute with a slusher–just a bucket that is drawn back and forth with a wench to drag the ore out.
Of course once the sides are worked out on the sides of the tunnel then there is an open stope that starts caving and that can be quite dramatic. But more than a few have bit the dust or been whacked in a bad way doing it.
I think greed, reputation and as some name it hubris has much to do with killing people. I know we had three shifts on our working place at that mine–if someone on the former shift screwed up by not pulling a round or leaving a muck pile that should have been pulled, they would know it.
That mine had contests and rewards for the working areas that produced the most ore–we generally won. Either way, it still was a job with enough danger without the contests that contribute to people taking chances they might not otherwise do. And yes I was once cited for breaking a safety rule.
I would pop the lenses out of my safety glasses and just wear the rims–most miners would just keep them handy and when they saw a safety inspector coming–lights in a dark tunnel can be seen a long ways–then they would put them on. They would get mucked up so fast you had to drill blind if you wore them. But yes, your helper if he was not drilling had to wear them and kept back from a cave area and under the wire mesh.
Yes Rockefellers own more than oil wells–they have mines as well, and especially those that the government pays well for the ore such as Uranium. It is wealth that buys the bennies and politicians are too often easy prey.
That mine did not have Union workers but nearby Hamilton Uranium interests did. Those miners were on strike–so scabs were being trucked in but on that Laguna Indian Reservation someone took a shot at the scab bus from off a hill side. So there was quite an ordeal there–but Hamilton just sold out its mine to another company–likely a straw company and that got rid of all the miners so they had to start a new operation without a Union involved.
Well you can see I am no hero in some sense that I should have known better–those reservation people wound up with water polluted from uranium tailings mined and left on the dumps and we now have enough bombs to kill everything on earth 40 times over.
Does technology have the DNA down so the new intelligent designed super man and woman that may be able to withstand low or no oxygen, extreme temperature, radioactive environment and poisons that ordinary people can not stand.
Willis said an ordinary person could not go through that manzanita but the wild land fire fighter could do it easily enough–well except at Yarnell. But you have to know the wild land fire fighter can get through better than most citizens–even me at this stage in my life.
I do have to believe that with 9 Trillion in cash missing over the past decade or so and with 16 restricted type 4 experimental labs and hundreds of colleges on federal grants, there are technologies that are on the top secret list that we can only imagine. You can buy everyone in the black ops a fancy car and fine home and have plenty to come up with not only things like ebola (patent number CA2741523A1 or medical marijuana patent number 6,630,507. Oh yes, titled as “Canniboids as antioxidants and Nueroprotefctants” and only a few granted to the United States of America as represented by the Dept. of Health and Human Services (Washington DC)–the latter on Oct. 7, 2003, the ebola 2010.
Kind of strange considering how full the prisons are for marijuana arrests–mostly long term and some even life sentences., But those are not the only patents–likely China has one on the Coronavirus, but I have not researched that. With the missing trillions you can imagine what drugs, poisons, methods, DNA, Chimeras, Minotaurs, and maybe even Dinousaurs that have been created–a few have washed up that defy the imagination., and when that main office in Atlanta of the Health and Human Services can provide you of a copy of what to do in case of a break out of the Zombie virus, then we hope they also provide a vaccine.
This is stuff you imagine in a B movie, but it is reality on film that very well could happen according to our good government health services. Well it has happened in a number of instances–one of course of that cop having to kill a zombie that was eating the face off a homeless guy. But what else is hidden from the main public eye?
If 2030 is the target date for reducing the earth to 800 million that 160 nations scientists in 1994 at Jakarta, India said was the threshold, then if these elite are serious, they have only ten years to do their dirty work.
Trade secrets are not patents–and if someone reports what Phoschek and other retardants have hidden so it is public knowledge then it is no longer under trade secret laws. This book I have on the chem trails and photographed documents that two anonymous pilots slipped out –entitled SMOKING GUN are stamped Top Secret 12 == in fact in red letters STS-12. Maybe some of you know what that means exactly–but more than a decade these men have been spreading some very toxic chemicals in the air–in particular Bromine and particulate Aluminum and Strontium which may not be a rat poison since it is in very small amounts needed in the body chemistry.
Perhaps it is good to have some enlightenment toward what to expect in the coming years and we do not need the Edgar Allen Poe stories these days to be amused.
One thing to be assigned a project, then another to carry it out knowing it is a pretense. Are these people such as Mike Dudley just robots that take orders without question as to the consequences of their actions? The surely must know that any denial of the truth in death situations puts future wild land fire fighter lives at elevated risk which can only result in more situations that cause death.
A man of integrity would stand against such obvious motives to protect reputations of bosses that screwed up in an action that resulted in the deaths of the GMHS crew–and even assuaged the character of Donut–an obvious ignoramus concerning wild land fire fighting and a bumbler concerning safety. They have made heroes out of people that deserve to be ostracized from the wild land fire fighting community least they spread their ignorance and stupidity among those that have high standards and integrity concerning wild land fire fighting and safety to keep young lives safe.
And there is the shame of people condemning the long experienced and concerned wild land fire fighters with the real credentials and input to mandate procedures to save lives. They have the gall to say stay away from Investigative Media, yet most of these people know so little about firefighting except what they have read in magazines or learned from Donut and the media that follows the ruse to keep reputations intact.
There will never be much hope for the safety of fire fighters if people do not start realizing the seriousness of learning and applying safe procedures
Well…maybe “evil” was a little strong? But I sure don’t think any of them are “good” people. Or maybe not if Shawna Legarza wouldn’t have covered up the true cause of the deaths on the Battlement Creek Fire a second time? Is there any chance someone would have connected the common data points, personalities, priorities, and management style of both Czak and Marsh and done more than just comment on Marsh’s reckless behavior mostly during off-the-record conversations? I don’t know? But if there was any chance that could have happened, I would call what Legarza did an evil act? And evil is as evil does. Or something like that? And what about what King did? That story is mostly lost to history, we really don’t know anything about what happened except other crews did turn down the reckless assignment King took and we know the El Cariso Hotshots were the only ones authorized to wear Black Berets to mimic the legendary Army Rangers. And the ONLY reason we know that…is because the former Captain of the Oak Grove Hotshots (who may have been one of the crews who refused the assignment, I can’t remember.) just happened to be participating on this thread and told us that fact. Otherwise…that whole story would have been lost to history. Of course we do have a photo of the El Cariso Hotshots in their Black Berets, but I don’t think we would have known they were the only ones authorized to wear them because they were so “gung-ho” with the “can do” spirit that Dr. Putnam has written that most wildland firefighters share as a cultural characteristic.
Gee…it’s too bad someone isn’t working on a doctoral thesis is Sociology and then they could really put the pieces of this puzzle together. I do have a minor in Sociology, but that is just because I had to pick either that or a minor in Psychology and for much of my life, I was like water and chose the path of least resistance (and I thought Sociology would be easier and I was right about that one) especially when it came to book learnin’, which hardly qualifies me to be the one to write about this whole WF culture phenomenon…thing. And it’s not just about hotshots, it’s a whole wildland firefighting culture that goes far beyond the narrow niche of hotshots, although they can be on the extreme of that “can do” phenomenon. the deaths on the Battlement Creek Fire a second time? Is there any chance someone would have connected the common data points, personalities, priorities, and management style of both Czak and Marsh and done more than just comment on Marsh’s reckless behavior mostly during off-the-record conversations? I don’t know? But if there was any chance that could have happened, I would call what Legarza did an evil act? And evil is as evil does. Or something like that? And what about what King did? That story is mostly lost to history, we really don’t know anything about what happened except other crews did turn down the reckless assignment King took and we know the El Cariso Hotshots were the only ones authorized to wear Black Berets to mimic the legendary Army Rangers. And the ONLY reason we know that…is because the former Captain of the Oak Grove Hotshots (who may have been one of the crews who refused the assignment, I can’t remember.) just happened to be participating on this thread and told us that fact. Otherwise…that whole story would have been lost to history. Of course we do have a photo of the El Cariso Hotshots in their Black Berets, but I don’t think we would have known they were the only ones authorized to wear them because they were so “gung-ho” with the “can do” spirit that Dr. Putnam has written that most wildland firefighters share as a cultural characteristic.
Gee…it’s too bad someone isn’t working on a doctoral thesis is Sociology and then they could really put the pieces of this puzzle together. I do have a minor in Sociology, but that is just because I had to pick either that or a minor in Psychology and for much of my life, I was like water and chose the path of least resistance (and I thought Sociology would be easier and I was right about that one) especially when it came to book learnin’, which hardly qualifies me to be the one to write about this whole WF culture phenomenon…thing. And it’s not just about hotshots, it’s a whole wildland firefighting culture that goes far beyond the narrow niche of hotshots, although they can be on the extreme of that “can do” phenomenon.
Whoops, that one really got messed up with the whole “copy it to my clipboard just in case so I don’t lose the whole comment,” which I know most of us have done. Oh well…just think of it as a puzzle you have to put together and go for it, you can manage it.
I think the salient points of all of that is this;
Can-do Spirit = Good
Reckless Spirit = Bad
Learn to know the difference and act accordingly.
RTS made his bones on the Oak Grove Hotshots in R-5 SoCal, he must know more than he has shared with us to date. Maybe?
Old Bob P. must have died? I sent him an email a few months ago but it came back addressee/server unknown.
I meant to write, “Maybe old Bob P. got dispatched to the Great Fire Camp beyond this Vale Of Tears? And he is now just sittin’ around a salamander sippin’ on a cup of coffee shootin’ the breeze about his days on the Oak Grove Hotshots of yesteryear.”
Or .more likely…maybe Bob just blocked me cause I broke his balls so hard? 😂
Which is something I truly regret doing and I sincerely want to apologize for. 😞
You know…just in case Bob is dead.💀So…
No, Bob Powers is alive but sadly it was his pet Big Mac you might of channeled in on but that was 2010 …RIP our pets.🐶
It could also be when Bob Powers 💌hearted💌 a comment on Facebook when A REMARKABLE MAN was added to “I am grateful to and admiring of the Powers family. Thank you for the help with my book and your faithful attention over the decades to the memory and spirit of Robert Powers, USFS, [ a remarkable man ] (appx 32 weeks ago my internet alerts showed such) YET appx two weeks later from July 9 2019 in person John N MacLean said he cannot associate with anyone tied to IM…so I learned then Bob Powers must be someone and Fire20+ Deanna Thompson must be someone and Holly Neill must be someone and Nowicki must be someone but the rest of us are ANYONE or maybe we are no one.
Gary
Next time get a pure breed
https://www.facebook.com/Runningunderdog/photos/a.483101791877155/1151124678408193/?type=3&theater
Pretty darn funny! 😂
Listening to a NY fireman that worked the trade center and actually watched the buildings fall. He said it was a demolition job, could not be anything else–he found a lot of molten steel in the rubble piles–and says it had to be a false flag event. He said also that all his fireman brothers agreed and that this had never in history happened before, steel does not melt with open fire. Who he says do you want to believe, the politicians and the investigators that work for them? He is now retired so has no fear to speak out about it.
Each to his own opinion–but I believe that fellow is right since I have forged steel and it takes a lot more than diesel oil to even get it soft enough to hammer out. You would have to have a blower and even then to melt it into piles would be extremely hard to do. But they were slick in demolishing the Building 7 that had no way of coming down in its tracks with just an office fire. But much of the public still believes that line that the fires caused the buildings to collapse. People just do not do their homework.
Dogs are smart–they dug under my fence this morning –well Whitey and Mama Dog did. I had been missing Blackie for 5 days now–little did i know that Mama Dog left early to rescue him. They came back about an hour ago and Blackie looked like he must have been lost in the Desert and needed somebody to rescue him. That is Mama Dog’s puppy so she had to have known where to look–well it must have been a long ways since they left before I got up at 7am. And dogs can travel plenty of miles in 15 hours–especially Huskies.
I felt strong enough today to start stringing an electric fence –that ought to keep them from burrowing under my sheep fence.
I do see that Trump and others are getting worried about the coronavirus. Seems like it is a bad one and a killer to those of age or with weakened systems. Hopefully surgical masks will be sufficient–my RN son says this is serious and has purchased a supply of surgical masks for his own and family use. He believes it will be a major thing, not what Trump makes it out to be.
What a crazy world–playing with virus that have no cure. But then the corporations that make these things can sell the medicines to fix you up and in the case of coronavirus or ebola strains, people will pay the price to save their lives. There are already billions being set aside for the preparations –so these taxes will be dearly needed when this stuff breaks out. Pharma profits will balloon–stocks there are a buy–the corporate giants and billionaires will see great increase in their wealth.
Eighteen solutions were explored in a Carnegie-supported 1911 “Preliminary Report of the Committee of the Eugenic Section of the American Breeder’s Association to Study and to Report on the Best Practical Means for Cutting Off the Defective Germ-Plasm in the Human Population.” Point eight was euthanasia.
The US was into Eugenics, the elite classes were worried about the earth being overrun by the low and mentally challenged and weak individuals even back in the 30’s. In fact Hitler was admiring the works of Americans on that –had even congradulated some American authors.
And who else but Carnegie and Rockefeller were financing these eugenic studies. It is generally the super rich that are concerned about disposing of “life not worthy of life”.
Remember, it was the American Secret Service that brought hundreds of Nazi Scientists over under Project Paperclip, gave them new names and identities and put them to work for their expertise in many different scientific areas.
Of course we know about luminaries like Werner Von Braun and J. Robert Oppenheimer, but few knew that the guy that managed the Plum Island laboratories was trained directly under Taub, a Project Paperclip scientist who had experimented on live human subjects. He of course was associated with Dr.Mengele, Angel of Death..
You can imagine that since the ebola patent of 2010 that in 10 years with 16 well funded Type 1V germ experimental labs the science of producing deadly virus strains has advanced greatly. In fact it has.
This particular Cornavirus is selective so that few young people are affected. It is only the elderly that might be considered by some as a part of those classed as “a live not worthy of life”.
This corona virus just might be as deadly to the elderly and weak as the retardant proved to be. The only fault with the retardant is that it can not be spread about a major city without obvious notice and complaint.
So what inspired the 1.25 billion dollars to be spent on a Kansas University Campus to create a new modern lab for more of these deadly virus? The use of virus in warfare is forbidden by the UN rules of engagement. Besides we have 15 more type 1V units around the country–and our good neighbor Britain has 9 more that we share notes with.
Write your Atlanta CDC for a copy of how to deal with a ZOMBE APOCOLYPSE. They do have a report several pages long telling you what to do in case that virus breaks out and gangs of Zombies start roaming the streets looking for victims to devour. This is real, not science fiction.
Part of it is about what people are trying to do right now–hoard some food and supplies so they do not have to go out on the streets.
Perhaps some of the intelligent politicians can inform us of why we need so many Type 1V. But I doubt they know themselves or even care.
The title of that Atlanta document was Zombie Apocalypse–and listed the what should be done included something like having food and water, neighborhood communication–and something like a nuclear attack thing. Maybe these recent tv shows are based on that Government Document. The Atlanta area where one of the main type 4 experimental stations is happens to be the area where the cop had to shoot the zombie and a few other outbreaks happened. Kind of like Lyme disease that started near that Type 4 facility off the shore of Ny and Caronavirus that began it the only facility China lays claim to as type 4 experimental station. Lots of coincidences and when was the ebola virus outbreak in Africa after WHO did lots of vaccinations there, Aids being another but I did not get its patent number.
Gary–your statements of evil are 100% correct–The definition of evil is morally reprehensible and these fellows qualify to the nth degree. They have sold their integrity to the system of deception and by those actions have made decision to knowling attest to falsehoods and lies. This thing they have done without conscience to the safety of their fellows, most especially to the younger and less knowledgeable wild land fire fighter whom looks to the older and experienced fire fighter for truth and direction.
If the errors and falsehoods are not recognized and dealt with, then more future wild land fire fighter lives are in jeopardy and deaths for the same reasons will happen. What can be more reprehensible and evil than that?
People sometimes equate charisma and niceness to good–yet there is really no relationship. A stern person that stays to truth is the one that worries about his workers and preforms his/her duties in the proper manner is also the person with integrity. Psychopaths have the greatest ability to fool the public and some of the best liked people turn out to be killers.
Genevieve Dalvis once said pretty is as pretty does. How true that is.
Good to see ya here
Actions are evil? Or do you think the person is when they just did a product?
You know me Sonny
You know I think we all can behave wrong and at times evil comes our ways but does it make the person evil or their actions?
I mean we both know there is more to come out but do you think Dudley will come out of this really as evil?
I want to know … it will help me inquire some areas to my mentor if I know what it is…
I found his actions to be harmful at times…
Let me sleep on it
Since you back Gary … I may be in a more reduced oxygen area than I first thought … I was given some Hypoxemia ruling last night so maybe once I am out of 9000 elevation it will be better.
How are u?
I cannot log into emails for awhile
The laptop was ruined last week.
Screen not recoverable.
I am still above ground Joy–and I trust you are doing well. I will be getting some more mesh installed–I think it will get me back to hiking once I do–everything checks out except cholesterol–so that gut hanging out needs to be tucked in.
Yes we have all erred, and certainly done foolish things. But when you take your crew down into a situation with the training these bosses had, they knew that they were at a dangerous risk that could easily kill all those men. You saw that fire before they went down into that nearly impassable brush–you did not have the knowledge at that time that you have now. Yet with what you know now, if you did that same action as a crew then your act certainly be evil. I know you would not, but that is an example.
And for these fellows that Gary listed to play like they don’t know the facts is another evil. Truth wins out in the end, but their lies and they know it do jeopardize the safety and lives of the future wild land fire fighter. So they are are just as responsible for the evil as Marsh was for continually risking his crew.
It is one thing to not understanding the situation but when you know the situation and knowingly risk your crew like that you might as well be a mass murderer. Look at the horrible results from those careless actions–what can be more evil than needlessly risking those young lives–and the damages to families and friends and kids that grow up without a father.
This thing to continue like it has under an umbrella of lies and deceptions is nothing by more of the same and will cause more of the same. These men need to own up to their errors and lies and make it right with the truth.
.
Sounds like you are in Cloudcroft. Yes those altitudes got us down in Utah–we were both sick after a few days.
Yes, I know there is a difference in evil actions and evil people. These men indeed are caught up in a system that operates so that they fear for their jobs if they don’t kiss the ass of that asshole above them. And the Dudley type is slicker than shit in cowboy terms–likey could con an eskimo into buying a deep freezer. But look at RTS posting of his actions–you have plenty of psychic and can see he is squirming at his BS. Charisma sells and he, Willis and others have done their good job of selling BS about those deaths–and yeah they will somewhere, maybe on their death beds or at a confession both own up. But they have let the truth down and it is not small thing considering the deaths and horrific aftermath of 19 deaths clearly due to carelessness.
I did not know the Rolling Stone Magazine guy stated it was clearly stupidity that killed the men. So even he could understand that in his young age. I am surprised Holly could not voice it, but I bet 100% Wayne saw it as did the guy we hiked from Rolling Stones–and Wayne is a wild land fire fighter. I mean how can you see it any other way if you have the facts–or if you stood there at the very spot we did a short time before they dropped off in that box canyon?
I am certain that these men set down and think of what they are doing–but according to Ted Putnam, this type of crap has been going on for a long time and likely because even in the Storm King situation, and before with many other incidents, these Dudley types keep up the charade and the problems and deaths continue to add up.
My opinions, I don’t have to kiss ass to anyone–and even the Pope or Billy Graham’s son has no better pipe line to God than I do or you for that matter, any of us. The truth is a freeing up–but each of us has to set down and know our own mind and truth within. The facade will never work.
Joy, my greatest moments are out among nature where I feel at home–the coyotes teach me a hell of a lot more than a Dudley or Marsh type ever could.
The coyotes huh
The animal kind or the ones that brought Ambrose over from Mexico?
Gee…thanks Sonny! See…Joy, Sonny agrees with me. But then again, both Sonny and I have taken some pretty hard hits in life. But then again…so have you Joy. How come you are so positive and cheerful anyway? You should figure out how to bottle that positive energy and sell it. I would buy a case…or two…or maybe even three or four?
I am Gary so POSITIVE AND CHEERFUL even though I know the annual saga has began where our certain folks are currently out there using social media once again ( How many years do I have to endure their shenanigans ) to sabotage and lie and defame and slander … all the while avoiding truths they are for sure and God just assured me they will slip down their slippery slope and I am to remain focused because in a few weeks I should be pretty heavily qualled for 2020 and I have some kick ass weather academies in 2021 so I guess I look ahead at the shiney beacon of light called TRUTH that keeps showing as I take the time to get a true education. But during it I also am learning YES you and Sonny are factual yet I am wanting to bridge not destroy us all.
You know one time I heard how Bob Powers thought of me when I was in CA someone he knew called him and when I was brought up I got to hear and let’s just say he does not comprehend me for all the time and energy I have done as the eyewitness NOT A WF OR FF back then on June 30 2013 but what Bob Powers fails to see I may not yet placed out all the documentation quite yet because I am learning who is who old and new and never drinking kool aid or getting biased and spent my life savings and then some doing such even Sonny put more funds in this and so I think historically there has never been two hikers on any fire ever that have contributed like we have being ourselves never appeasing what another tried to groom us to be and in 2014 we were told by some we don’t have to be involved anymore but I did because WHO was saying it. I am happy because you and Sonny are alive still to and here sharing because every moment I can I share people can come here and make their own assessments. My family and Sonny and RTS can tell you when I bottle it up…watch out…I do have a GARY L OLSON side too🙈🙉🙊🐰😏🙏😅😂🤣😇😜🤪🤯🤬😱🤭🤫🙄😲🤐🥴🤮😷🤕 We all have our every ten moments of something…
Romero, hope you are ok. I did not want to push too hard this week with you.
I am hoping you are well. Gary, we all can self sabotage if we are not mindful.
Shit, just be happy they still make your ammo for you and that you are set on auto delivery…and if you run out Sonny can trail the deserts with ya and show you what in the desert can be picked up and reloaded…he is a MASTER at such…never seen him be blown away except the time the dog shot him.
Well okay then…I will work on being more positive person! 🙂
It is just what we do
This is the day the Lord hath made and be glad in it … rejoice
Even if the courts did not rule the way they should
Even though this fire was historic
Even though the one who took the AFUE are the custodians and have never shown TRANSFER OF OWNERSHIP
but yeh be glad one of your fella firefighters spent sixty plus grand to learn the government will not even see criminal charges for breaking laws
But yeah the Dudley kinds can take a cell from an officer and never get it back…
The list goes on
Deaths and divorces
But smile Gary🙂
https://odb.org/2020/02/26/the-joyful-life
When I have moments to hashtag Jay Kurth
I just remember God has to work in Jays heart
Not me
It helps me each and every time
https://www.facebook.com/Runningunderdog/photos/a.486297624890905/1348841598636499/?type=3&eid=ARDBjmiavLxOu90dueVPPlNZK84X2VMe1wbwRZxbsDITBDaqLGXkxJLyfqc4stoPmnIMn3IkHERNpyZZ&__tn__=EHH-R
This runner has on 9 23 19 a bird with an arrest ankle bracelet and knife
You know life is rough if that happens
You would think he would just fly away
Prison planet we live in and Sonny best explains it
CORRECTION; For The Record
I misspoke a couple of days ago. The South Canyon Fire started out as simply SNAFU and then eventually evolved into FUBAR.
get some sleep bro
429am
You becoming an owl?
Because every day is Saturday and every night is a Friday night, I keep and irregular schedule. This is a very complicated case, Joy. You know, a lotta ins, lotta outs, lotta what-have-you’s. And, uh, lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder’s head. Luckily I’m adhering to a pretty strict, uh, drug regimen to keep my mind, you know, limber.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=HjJhbnz8YX0
https://www.usajobs.gov/GetJob/ViewDetails/559934800#shorten-link
G14 forester
What again was Gary at G15
Gary
How is your special lady friend with this CA state of emergency doing?
This post includes two articles with comments from the Coyote Blog – Dispatches from District 48 from August and September 2013. I think that firefighters provide this blog.
Fetishizing An Enormous F*ckup – August 28, 2013, 9:46 am
From the location of the Yarnell fire deaths:
” We are going to hallowed ground, ” says Jim Paxon, spokesman for the Arizona Forestry Division, moments before leading reporters and TV crews to the site where 19 members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed in a June 30 wildfire.
The contracted Party Line Team Player and Go Along To Get Along Public Disinformation Officer Jim Paxon, relies on feigned emotionalism, pure histrionics and virtual paganism in an attempt to steer the readers to believe this drivel.
” They are almost superhuman ,” Paxon drawls to reporters gathered on the morning of July 23. “As we go up there, there’s a Granite Mountain Hotshots shirt on a cactus. We would ask that you touch the shirt . . . in reverence to the loss. ”
Darrell Willis, the Granite Mountain Hotshots direct supervisor in the Prescott Fire Department said that their deaths were God’s will
” The voice of what actually happened, we’ll never know,” Willis says. “We’re not going to have that information from [the dead men]. ”
Willis continues, ” It was just one of those things that happened. You can call it an accident. I just say that God had a different plan for that crew at this time.”
I don’t know how much this tragedy gets covered nowadays outside of Arizona, but it still dominates the news here.
I have no problem sending all the sympathy in the world to the young families of these men. But I am exhausted with the fetishizing as heroic of what looks to be a total screw up. An experienced crew had absolutely no business being where they were, or in this day and age so badly out of communication.
They either blundered into, or were incompetently led into (the facts are still coming out) an absurdly dangerous position. At best, they were there to protect a ranch house that had already been evacuated and was likely insured a lot better than the lives of many of the crew members.
From my observations operating for years in the US Forest Service and other wilderness areas, wildland firefighting needs a serious housecleaning. I thought for sure this tragedy would be a stick driven into that particular anthill, almost guaranteeing scrutiny and accountability might follow. Now I am not so sure. (all emphasis added)
( http://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/08/fetishizing-an-enormous-fckup.html )
PFD Wildland BC Willis states: “The voice of what actually happened, we’ll never know,” Willis says. “We’re not going to have that information from [the dead men]”
On the contrary Mr. Willis, the voice of what actually happened WILL be known and we WILL have that information from [the dead men] and you know it will. You even possess some of it. It will come from the cell phone, camera, and iPad videos and audios recorded that day from local citizens, WFs, FFs, and others that will come out.
______________________________________________________________________________________
Apparently No Mistakes Were Made in Yarnell Fire
September 30, 2013, 8:41 am
The [“official report”] is out, and apparently absolutely no mistakes were made by anyone leading to the deaths of 19 in the Yarnell Hill fires (sic) . Despite the fact that — these 19 men were totally out of communication; and no one knew where they were; and they entered a ridiculously dangerous patch of ground; and they were not pursuing any coherent goal anyone can name — no one made any mistakes and there is nothing here to learn from. Wow.
Here is my analysis of what is going on with this report: Substantial mistakes were made by both the fire team and by their leaders. Their leaders wrote the report, and certainly were not going to incriminate themselves, particularly given that they likely face years of litigation. They could have perhaps outlined the mistakes the team made, but the families and supporters of the dead men would have raised a howl if the dead firefighters were blamed for mistakes while the leadership let themselves off the hook, and surely would have pushed back on the culpability of the firefighting effort’s management.
So this report represents an implicit deal being offered to the families — we will let your dead rest in peace by not highlighting the mistakes they made if you will lay off of us and the mistakes we made. We will just blame it on God (I kid you not, see Prescott chief’s statements here). Most Arizonans I know seem willing to have these folks die as heroes who succumbed to the inherent risks of the profession, rather than stupid errors, so we may never have an honest assessment of what happened. And yet again the opportunity to do a major housecleaning of wildland firefighting is missed. (all emphasis added)
( http://coyoteblog.com/coyote_blog/2013/09/apparently-no-mistakes-were-made-in-yarnell-fire.html#disqus_thread )
Comments: MingoV: @Mole 1
Stupid errors (as opposed to unavoidable errors) are not inherent risks of any profession. My brother-in-law and his wife were forest fire fighters for 30 and 25 years, respectively. Every spring their fire fighting teams underwent training: physical (long hikes up and down mountains while packing 80 pounds of gear), fire fighting techniques, how to read fires in different circumstances, and how to deal with unexpected events. My brother-in-law was a team leader and handled scores of fires not just in the Cascades (their base) but all over the USA (and also a big fire in Canada). In all those 30 years, not one team member died. Proper training and skillful leadership prevent stupid errors.
Years back there were multiple fire fighter fatalities in Colorado. My brother-in-law and his headquarters boss stated that the deaths were avoidable and were caused by team leader mistakes and headquarters mistakes. The Arizona situation is similar.
Yes indeed it is. Very similar
These posts are from the “Trend That is Not A Trend”: Rolling Stone Wildfire Article – September 18, 2013, 11:47 pm and the Wisconsin University Madison CIMSS Satellite Weather website commenting on the Yarnell Hill Fire in 2013.
Trend That is Not A Trend : Rolling Stone Wildfire Article – September 18, 2013, 11:47 pm
By the way, the Yarnell firefighters did not die due to global warming or even the 10am rule. They died due to stupidity. Whether their own or their leaders may never be clear, but I have yet to meet a single firefighter that thought they had any business being where they were and as out of communication as they were.
Journalist Jon Talton began a powerful column yesterday with a quote from Norman Maclean’s Young Men and Fire: ” Unless we are willing to escape into sentimentality or fantasy, often the best we can do with catastrophes, even our own, is to find out exactly what happened. ”
Today, Talton wrote, that means: “It will be essential to scrutinize the skill level of the crew ( were they really “elite” by the gold standards of training ) and if mistakes were made that resulted in being trapped. The official investigation must be subjected to skepticism and scrutiny by independent experts. Mistakes were made in both South Canyon and Mann Gulch. This will be painful but necessary.” (all emphasis added) ( https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/yarnell-hill-fire-fatalities-in-context )
____________________________________________________________________________________
Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona – June 30th, 2013 | Scott Bachmeier
( https://cimss.ssec.wisc.edu/satellite-blog/archives/13341 )
This commenter Jeff is spot on and definitely knows what he’s talking about in his comment, whether is an academic analytically coming to these conclusions or an experienced wildland firefighter. I tend to think he’s a WF.
Comment below from Jeff says: 13 July 2013 at 1:37
“Good information and good work.
This tragic event was clearly predictable and preventable once we focus on the wildland firefighting rules.
Several of the Common Denominators to tragedy fires were in place: (1) light, flashy fuels, (2) isolated sectors of large fires, (3) in or adjacent to chimneys, chutes, or bowls, and (4) unexpected shifts in wind direction or wind speed.
The primary Ten Standard Fire Orders relevant were: (1) Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts, (2) Know what your fire is doing at all times, and (3) Base all actions on current and expected fire behavior.
Several of the 18 Situations that shout Watch Out applied: (11) Unburned fuel between you and the fire, (14) Winds increases and/or changes direction, and (17) Terrain and fuels make travel to safety difficult.
Several of the Look Up, Down, and Around fire environmental factors and indicators applied listed in the Incident Response Pocket Guide on pages 2-3. (all emphasis added)
Hopefully, this will help to prevent further tragedies. May God be with the families, friends, loved ones, and those firefighters also involved.”
Once again, this guy is spot on whether he analytically concluded this from the wildland firefighting rules from the Internet or one that obviously speaks from experience.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on February 24, 2020 at 1:00 pm
>> RTS said..
>>
>> These posts are from the “Trend That is Not A Trend”: Rolling Stone Wildfire
>> Article – September 18, 2013, 11:47 pm and the Wisconsin University
>> Madison CIMSS Satellite Weather website commenting on the Yarnell Hill Fire in 2013.
From the same link you posted above…
High Country News
Article Title: Yarnell Hill fire fatalities, in context
Published: July 2, 2013 – By Cally Carswell
https://www.hcn.org/blogs/goat/yarnell-hill-fire-fatalities-in-context
From that article…
————————————————————————————————
A good friend of mine who is a wildfire medic was in the airport yesterday, en route to his next assignment, when I called to ask him, in that helpless way we do, to be safe, and to see how he was handling the tragic news from Arizona, where 19 hotshots lost their lives Sunday fighting the Yarnell Hill Fire.
His voice was angry, baffled, sad. Like all of us, he was turning over the things that might have gone wrong. “My instinct is that they were overcommitted to those houses,” he told me. “We have rules. You’re supposed to never put (the value of anything) above your life. Safety is the number one thing. There’s no fucking house that’s worth it.
—————————————————————————————————
We have RULES.
SAFETY is the number one thing.
You’re supposed to NEVER put the value of anything ABOVE your life.
There’s no fucking house that’s worth it.
Compare that to the “die on your sword or don’t come home” bullshit that Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis was slinging the day of that first press conference held out at the deployment site…
—————————————————————————————————
Darrell Willis:
In my heart, I would know that they’re not protecting themselves
They’re gonna go and protect that ranch.
I mean… we can look back and say… if you were standing here… and you’re a firefighter… where would you go?
You’re gonna go there ( points to the ranch ) to protect that house… not necessarily protect themselves.
They protected themselves as a last resort.
————————————————————————————————-
WTKTT,
Thanks for the reminder of one of the creepiest quotes out there on this subject. In my opinion only, its evidence of the extreme danger of blending the 2 distinct separate cultures of the municipal (or structural) and wildland firefighter.
“If I’m standing there and I’m a firefighter, where would I go?”
It’s probably best not to type my answer to that ridiculous question on an open public forum.
Maybe we can chock this quote up to someone who is severely mentally traumatized and not thinking clearly. Or, maybe the municipal wildland division chief (battalion chief) is for real? If so, I can’t do a better job pointing out the problem then he did himself.
Woodsman
And there is much more from the two July 2013 News Conferences at the GMHS Deployment / Fatality Site
”… I would have followed them blindfolded … “
“… they emphasized … (LCES), … ,however, there are points during that workday … you don’t have all of those standards in place … especially with them moving, … you couldn’t leave anybody behind. … wouldn’t have left anybody behind “
“ … just one of those things that happened … you can call [it] an accident … God had a different plan for that Crew. ”
“ … it’s a very common occurrence … backfiring [around yourself to create a S/Z] …”
( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1lBgicPq5A ) (Part 1) ( (://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDQRLXZV1Ro ) (Part 2)
News Conference PFD Wildland BC “we were able to monitor the radio frequencies … ”
“ … no [WFF] is satisfied sitting there [in a S/Z] and watching the fire progress without … taking some action … ”
“ … died with honor, … stuck together, … saw / felt the same way … ”
“ protected themselves as a last resort … picked the best location in this bowl … “
“ …**why do [FF] run into burning buildings** … it’s ingrained in them … not going to sit up there when … potential for people to be at risk somewhere. ” _________________________________________________________
This is the Fallacy of False Equivalence or False Analogy and is an enormous ‘leap’ from structure fire to wildland fire. It’s apples and oranges. Municipal and Structure FFs have much heavier PPE, oxygen, and tons of water.
Fallacy of False Analogy – This fallacy consists in assuming that because two things are alike in one or more respects, they are necessarily alike in some other respect. ( Texas State Dept. of Philosophy ) (all emphasis added)
Fallacy of False Equivalence – It’s when you set up two opposing sides of an argument, and make it look like they hold equal weight, when really, they don’t. And presenting both of these views as valid is a logical fallacy, or a “false equivalence.”
False equivalence is a type of cognitive bias or flawed reasoning style. False equivalency means that you think (or are told) two things should have equal weight in your decision-making. If one opinion has solid data supporting it, but the other opinion is conjecture, they are not equivalent in quality. ( This Is Not Equal To That: How False Equivalence Clouds Our Judgment ) (all emphasis added)
Propagandists — people who want to use the media to spread a particular cause or belief — often take advantage of the chaos of breaking news to spread rumors and conspiracy theories. They often create false social media accounts, and then use other false accounts to comments and like a post. ( KQED Education – False Equivalence: Why It’s So Dangerous | Above the Noise ) (all emphasis added)
RTS–I hope some Congressman gets hold of your quotes–that is where it should stir a Congressional Investigation. Then the fellows that want to BS the public and others will have to talk under oath. I wonder how far their deceptions would go there.
One thing to BS the public, but BS Congress and they have a cross bar hotel to assign you to.
And of course I think I know exactly what the problem was between Marsh and Willis near the end of their relationship. I know both men since I have known so many men just like them. Willis was the proverbial immovable object and Marsh was the proverbial irresistible force.
Willis wouldn’t give in and Marsh? At his very core he had a deeply buried self destructive personality flaw…he just couldn’t help himself. Marsh had to eventually fuck everything up because that’s what he was in the end…a terminal fuck up and he killed his crew because of it. So…
Everything is so clear from my vantage point. I just wish everyone could see things as clearly as I do. 😂 But, most people eventually get there…or they pay the price for not being able to. Yep, still got it…hubris. I guess I’ll just have to be buried with it?
Oh…and one more thing. Willis knows that I am right and it eats at his soul every day as it will until the day he takes his last breath. Willis knows that he is just as responsible for those 19 deaths as Marsh is because he put Marsh in place to have the power to order the crew to their deaths in order to serve his own selfish objectives.
And that is one thing RTS is wrong about, 18 of those 19 mental didn’t have a choice because the hotshot culture demanded that they follow their crew bosses orders. That is just the way hotshot crews roll.
And how do I know I am right and RTS is wrong? It would have only taken ONE (1) man to stand up and refuse the order to descend into that death chute. That ONE (1) act of courage would have allowed the others to rally around him and therefore save themselves from following an order they all knew was wrong with potentially deadly consequences for all of them.
And that ONE (1) man who had that potential was there that day who had been trained by RTS on the Payson Hotshots. But in the end…Scott Norris followed his crew bosses orders to his death in violation of almost all of the safety rules and guidelines at once, just like the other 17 hotshots did.
I’m sorry RTS…but you had your chance to save the crew when you trained Scott Norris. But your cult of hotshot individualism couldn’t overcome the hotshot institutionalism of collective action as a single unit under the command of a hotshot crew boss.
And like I wrote years ago ago…that is actually a very good system that has only failed three times in hotshot history which resulted in catastrophic consequences. And those three times are out of the hundreds of thousands (millions?) of critical decisions hotshot crew bosses have made collectively since hotshot crews were first created in 1947-48 in the cradle of hotshot civilization…SoCal.
So…the catastrophic failure rate of that system is so minuscule, it is really to small to even calculate except those three times hurt so bad because when it does fail…it really does so hard in very memorable and public ways that affect a lot of people e.g., the Loop Fire of 1966 with the El Cariso Hotshots, the Battlement Creek of 1976 with the Mormon Lake Hotshots and the single biggest blunder in wildland firefighting history…the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013 with the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Authors Note: I consider the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain of 1994 with the death of an entire squad (9) of Prineville Hotshots to be in a separate study group under the category of Death From Above (fire team overhead). And that is because I don’t place the same level of responsibility on a hotshot squad boss that I do a crew boss. Which of course is a debatable conclusion that reasonable people may differ on since I just don’t personally think the wildland firefighting culture gives anywhere near the same level of authority and corresponding responsibility to a hotshot squad boss as it does to a crew boss unless that squad boss is in an acting crew boss role.
Whoops,
“That ONE (1) act of courage would have allowed the others to rally around him and therefore save themselves from following an order they all knew was wrong with potentially deadly consequences for all of them.”
I shouldn’t have used the word “courage”, because it took courage to trust their crew boss to pull off such a high risk tactical maneuver in attempting to reposition the crew to be able to re-engage the fire. I should have substituted the word “defiance”, since refusing that order would have been an act of defiance. A very reasonable and logical act of defiance, but an act of defiance against the hotshot norm nevertheless.
Gary, the mindset is so strong when the creed of the GMHS crew was to strictly obey orders on a daily basis. It is hard to give in to such a strong idea. But people do, and part of it is that they forget to take responsibility and allow some higher authority to direct their actions. It is almost a hypnotic form as we see in psychological experiments where most people under hypnosis will actually pull a trigger on a gun when ordered to by authority believing the gun is loaded.
I have seen it in real life when you could plainly see 12×12 timbers mushrooming from the downward pressure that obviously was ground about to cave despite those huge timbers (stulls in mine terminology). Yet those miners went back in minus one who was called a chicken shit–and true to form in a short time were caught back in that rat hole. I needed the job but not that bad, but that boss was slicker than shit in his ways and had them convinced it was safe and more timbers would solve the problem. Like Marsh, he lucked out that time and by luck they worked themselves out by crawling on their knees for a quarter of a mile down an air shaft that fortunately had not caved enough to get them–and fortunately no one was under the cave when it happened.
That one was using common sense–the Yarnell killing had more than common sense involved–it had safety measures that were disregarded in every aspect. Miners do not get a set of safety rules–you just better know to bar down and wear your hard hat since a rock the size of your fist can crack your skull easily enough. And by all means do not drill if you have a dud hole–blast it out before proceeding–but this shit you learn from experience or common sense. Is it not common sense to avoid at all costs dropping off into a choke full canyon of dry manzanita that a bear has to wallow through to pass through?
So there is plenty to consider on that killing of 19–Ted Putnam would be the top dog to run an investigation there with his psychology expertise–that was a mind fuck operation–and it continues on so it will take some professional advice to get it right–and integrity and honesty–Ted would be that one to lead there but RTS, Gary and just about all the wild land fire fighters posting here would get the BS cleaned up and some lives saved doing it.
Although maybe it depends on who the fire overhead is? And in the case of the Prineville Hotshot Squad on the Canyon Fire, I think it was even more complicated because the Incident Commander (Fire Boss) was a highly respected veteran smokejumper, Don Mackey out of the USFS Missoula Smokejumper Base, which is kinda their headquarters compared to all of the other and smaller bases…I think?
And I do know the wildland firefighting culture gives (at least in my day) automatic and in some cases oversized and undeserved deference and respect to smokejumpers that may or may not be justified depending on the smokejumper in question.
This cultural idiosyncrasy (for the lack of a better word) was further complicated by the fact that at the time, the agency who was managing the fire because of the land status where it was burning (Public Lands managed by the BLM) had a policy that the FIRST jumper out of the plane was the jumper-in-charge (JIC) on the ground, which made him the de facto IC.
Which makes sense if the most qualified and experienced jumper in the stick (load) is always the first one to jump. But if not…that’s was a really stupid policy since the wildland firefighting culture demanded that the person who had been the IC on the fire prior to the arrival of the jumpers, who could have more easily just have driven out to the fire since it was anchored by Interstate 70 in Colorado and wasn’t far from their temporary jump base in Grand Junction. But since they were smokejumpers, they did what smokejumpers are trained to do…they jumped the fire however impractical and unnecessarily expensive and time consuming it was.
Anyway…a local BLM Engine Foreman, who I think (if I remember the story right) was actually a more of a senior person than just a foreman and was what I would call a Station Foreman, which can be kinda like an Assistant Fire Management Officer. In any case, he knew the area and fuel type well, which was important because it was burning in the same fuel type that killed the Mormon Lake Hotshots on the Battlement Creek Fire. And that was frost killed Gamble Oak that had been nicknamed Fuel Type X by the Colorado Division of Forestry (the State Forestry Agency) because of its explosive properties and was known to run down and kill adult mule deer, which would be you know…double tough.
So anyway…BLM policy puts Mackey as the JIC and then wildland firefighting culture makes him the IC over the local guy who should have been managing the fire because he was familiar with the explosive fuel type the fire was burning in, but he deferred to a smokejumper just because he was a smokejumper. But because Mackey was on detail to a temporary jump base in Grand Junction from out of state (Montana), he may not have even been familiar with the explosive properties of Fuel Type X and Mackey very well may not have even been the most qualified jumper in the stick?
And since it was reported that Mackey had his head down sharpening a chain saw just before the huge canyon (all of the firefighters were in while fighting the fire above it) more or less exploded in an area ignition, I would say he wasn’t the best person to be managing the fire and it should have remained with the local engine boss.
Anyway…I think I have all of that right? So in that particular case, the hotshot squad boss shouldn’t have deferred to the IC, but the squad boss couldn’t have any of that at the time since he was from out-of-state (Oregon) as well. I kinda got lost in that convoluted explanation but I think the bottom line is that the South Canyon Fire was SNAFU from the very beginning. And then it got worse…a lot worse.
And when I say the South Canyon Fire on Storm King Mountain was SNAFU from the very beginning…I mean it was SNAFU from the very beginning. The South Canyon was on you know…the south side of I-70, but the South Canyon Fire was burning on the NORTH side of I-70. The location of the fire had been misidentified on the wrong side of the interstate from the very beginning. So…it was SNAFU from from jump.
And for reasons I don’t know and have never known, both the Prineville Hotshot Crew Boss and Assistant Crew Boss (they weren’t called Captains back then) were still down at the base heliport and neither were taken by helicopter with the first squad to the top of the canyon.
So…I guess maybe that decision could be criticized depending on why that went down that way? That meant that hotshot squad was on their own surrounded by jumpers who thought they owned the mountain. Fuckin’ jumpers…present company like Ted Putnam and my fellow hotshot sawyer who jumped out of Missoula for 30 years excluded of course. But…I’m not writing about the South Canyon Fire except briefly and in general terms. So…
Gee…I’m in kinda a bitchy (non gender specific) mood today. I guess I had better go to sleep?
Oh…and one more thing. Why was everyone working ABOVE the South Canyon Fire instead of flanking it up from the anchor point down on I-70? I don’t know…but maybe it was because the fuckin’ jumpers did what jumpers do? They jumped the fire and landed on the ridge top rather than just driving out to the fire like good little road warriors and starting to cut line and fire it out from the anchor point. Which of course would have been Best Practices, Standard Operating Procedure, and following long established protocols. Goodnight!
Yes! Gary rolling time!!!
The Scott Norris factor is huge & indicative of something going on in the decision making process breakdown that is impossible to ignore.
I really think RTS was an exceptional and excellent hotshot crewboss. Apparently he was very forward thinking with his openness and encouragement of free thinking on his crew. Of course, this wasn’t the norm & still isn’t. In spite of the training and indoctrination Norris received while working with such a free thinking crew like Payson, it still wasn’t enough. Why? Was pissing off Marsh so incredibly a regrettable thing to do, people avoided it against knowing better because it just wasn’t worth it?
And, I’ve never claimed we aren’t all operating in a pseudo military framework. I just don’t believe Steed and a couple of others formerly serving in the USMC had anything to do with blindly following orders. It was the hybrid culture of a city fire department fielding what started as a fuels crew & morphed into an actual hotshot crew blended with the innate hotshot culture…turned on its head by the fatal key…the Marsh personality factor.
And I posit Willis had power and control over Marsh because of his, what may be considered as, controversial employment history. Willis had leverage over Marsh. The program was in jeopardy of being shutdown by city council because of cost concerns and possibly other factors? The combination of the power and leverage of Willis over Marsh with the incessant need to prove the crews worth to everyone from state, fed, to local city council created a deadly environment of unreasonable risk taking by GM. It’s devastating to me personally that a majority of the crew probably thought this was all normally accepted behavior of wildland firefighting crews. It’s not. The rogue crews out there need to be rehabilitated if possible or disbanded if not.
And as a matter of fact…BOOM 💥 GOES THE 🧨 on Part II. I wish I had written all of that because it pretty much sums up the whole problem. And characterizing 19 hotshots being burned to death a “problem”, is pretty much the understatement of the century.
But it’s okay because after I put it in my book, most people will think I did write it since I’m not going to take the time to properly attribute anything since I’m going to give my book away as a free download. So…
I think you are right about everything you wrote including the part about Fred being an exceptional hotshot crew boss. But even Fred’s exceptionalism as a crew boss wasn’t enough to to overcome the combined force of the long standing (almost 70 years in 2013) hotshot culture and ethos of obeying orders from their crew boss, in addition to the proven negative consequences of challenging Eric Marsh. And thinking about it makes me want to cry…again.
One thing in this NEW generation of fighting fire we have to work hard to find the culture in this culture of fighting fire. It has become too many with certifications may it be earned like mine or pencil whipped like many others…in the end it still lacks experience and taskbooks.
It reminded me of the black culture (honoring Black history month) back in the day BEFORE social media
You had to in the day “work hard” to find black culture in some areas I lived just as today it is hard to find the culture you experienced Gary. Time to clean house and bring back culture …maybe Firefighting needs their own month to recognize CULTURE.
Because you know, if a hotshot crew boss says it’s Easter…the crew immediately starts lookin’ for fuckin’ Easter Eggs 🐣 That’s just the way it is.
Is it someone’s Thorazine shuffle meds time? If so, share with me.
💥✨🌪☄️💨🌊🌫💊
We got a title calling RTS on recent IM article chief from JD and now you with Crew Boss
I will be a crew boss…qualled up and zero experience yet RTS did a long run as a Superintendent experienced. Never deployed a shelter.
Wasn’t. RTS retired when Norris was in Payson? You sure it was him who trained Norris?
I will look in my foia and prr storage this Summer…I have Scott’s complete profile, it will say.
Sonny, I am in one of your old logging towns earlier tonight learned I am weak in this high elevation. I also think watching Pete Anderson in the Single Resource Crew Boss class hit me.
I mean why so many of us have to be dealing with health. Sucks.
Gary, did you go back to earlier chapters and you felt something was stuck in the weeds? Seems we know all about Easter and the Easter Bunny and the eggs. However, in history not one Firefighter has taken the initiative to this extent … 9th circuit … to sue the government for just some PUB.IC RECORDS that my very own FOIA prove they preserved them and stored them … Here the judges have my declaration and yet they still dicked around talking versus saying LOOK HERE it says you have it … give it. The whole thing on you ripping on RTS … Historically, you saw Bob Powers early on stick up for him RTS on here but nowadays AKA RECENT YEARS you can find Bob Powers on John N MacLean‘s facebook page commenting about the book they did on his dad so maybe we will see Bob here sticking there for a fella bro but if not RTS saw Woodsman do it … You run any crew as long as RTS did and still have sanity after dealing with the fucked up dysfunctions. Firefighting when you did it Gary…just not the same…
I am training in it and it’s a new generation
It’s all about the quals versus experience
And if one does illegal shit just ask your bro to cover for ya
Oh and let me hashtag AGAIN
CAPLES RX BURN
hashtag # Jay Kurth and his professional backyard
LOOK FOR ANY ILLEGAL DOINGS OFFICE OF GENERAL COUNSEL OR SIT WITH ME AND LET ME COUNT THE WAYS FOR YOU
let’s finally get some changes rolling
Demob and demote time in 2020.
Crabtree needs to understand the errors
Investigate. Caples RX burn
Hashtag # OIG
Remember who’s professional backyard it was that helped on the YHFIRE
CALM IT DOWN GARY
Easter is not here yet…relax…
Oh yeah
Use those safenets
https://safenet.nifc.gov/sindex.cfm
Again hashtag CA main watershed .. retardant dropped in …
Caples RX
Create Agency Corrective Action
SAFENET ID:
20191201-0001 [Corrective Actions]
Event Start Date:
11/28/2019 0300
Event Stop Date:
Incident Name:
Dry Hollow Fire
Fire Number:
P9MY1T 0921
State:
West Virginia
Jurisdiction:
USFS
Local Unit:
Monongahela National Forest
Incident Type:
Wildland
Incident Activity:
Line, Support, Transport to/from
Stage of Incident:
Extended Attack
Position Title:
Type 3 Incident Commander
Task:
Overall Incident Management
Management Level:
3
Resources Involved:
All fire personnel and support personnel
Contributing Factors
Contributing Factors:
Communications, Equipment, Other
Human Factors:
Decision Making
Other Factors:
Ownership of building and equipment
Narrative
Describe in detail what happened including the concern or potential issue, the environment (weather, terrain, fire behavior, etc), and the resulting health issue.
At 1600 Nov 29, 2019 a server in a USDA facility failed. This specific server is the main link to all internet and connectivity for the Supervisors Office. The particular server is also the main link for the communication system for the north zone communication repeater. Dispatch had no means of talking to any fire personnel on the Dry Hollow Fire.
The Monongahela NF SO is a building operated by USDA since this location is the COOP location for when Washington DC is evacuated due to unforeseen reasons. In May of 2018, a COOP exercise occurred in which the communication link for the repeaters were unplugged until the COOP exercise was completed. It was at this time we as a fire program knew there was a problem. At this time we were still monitoring active prescribed fires since they were not called out, we were able to work around not having proper radio coverage through cell service and local front desk personnel.
Due to budget reasons the issue could not be addressed in FY18.
A ticket was initiated with CIO to move the communication server link to another Forest Service owned site in which the USDA is not located.
This ticket was submitted Oct 28, 2018. Contact was made during December to discuss cost and what was needed. Late Dec the government furlough occurred which backed up the CIO system. June deadline passed to purchase equipment and had to wait until FY20 for work to be started. Work has started in Oct and Nov. However the work is not complete.
When this link is not working there is no communication through an IP address which means dispatch cannot talk to field units. While on a active wildfire, firefighters are at risk and to minimize that risk we try to mitigate the dangerous situations. No communication with dispatch is a serious concern.
Fortunately we were able to have a RADO with phone service provide the critical link with dispatch. My concern is the delay in a response if a medical would occur. The main reason this Safe Net is being filed.
Immediate Action Taken
Reporting Individual : please describe actions you took to correct or mitigate the unsafe/unhealthful event.
The Dry Hollow Fire has a Type 3 Incident Command Team. Included in the team is a Communications Unit which is the Forest Service’s, Monongahela NF local radio technician. This individual manages the Forest Radio system and is very familiar with it’s operation. The radio tech immediately started to trouble shoot the problem of the system.
While trouble shooting was occurring, the ICP set up a RADO, started tracking and taking all radio communications to mitigate the no communication link with dispatch. Good cell service communication did exist with dispatch.
In the diagnostic of the link problem, it was determined the issue was in the SO and with the USDA server on Nov 30, 2019. USDA was aware of a failure at 1600 the day before.
The radio technician called the USDA technician and USDA did not find the need to fix the problem until the following work week due to this being Thanksgiving Holiday weekend. Putting fire fighters at risk.
Discussion went into the need to fix the server and to do a reboot by USDA and finally the right folks were able to make the fix happen.
It is imperative the communication link of the repeaters for the forest be relocated to a site which eliminates the jurisdictions/access issues that have occurred with USDA.
Corrective Actions
20191201-0001-CA001
Action on this issue is currently taking place with the relocation of the server to an non-USDA building. The Region will still work with CIO on resolving communication issues that arise throughout the region, and push to have faster response to these issues especially during emergency situations.
Document Document Document
Safenets are there … use them.
I bet you will see people like Jay-bird who tie only one shoe because the bottom sole says Taiwan..get it…tie one…Taiwan
Keep drinking the kool aid man
Gary you are not the only one who goes off on whatever days
The last time I saw someone like J-bird, I flushed it 😏
If you read this page Jbird, read it upside down
370HSSV 0773H
Sorry for the mean awful accurate things I say about you Jbird but it is your hole, man
May it be potholes…shit holes…it’s your hole…you made it
Deal with it
I got you a cyber gift: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/1f/09/c3/1f09c3635d144a07e7a6d1f26b7cebac.jpg
You are not the only one who can NATURALLY digress
I don’t know? Sometimes I get my stories mixed up, but who really cares? We need to focus on the moral to my stories and not the details. And even if I did, that’s beside the point because RTS established the culture on the Payson Hotshots. I bet you could go out with the Santa Fe Hotshots today and you would think I was runnin’ that crew. Three crew bosses who came after me that I know about all worked for me for years and two of them I brought on as babies and raised them right, Andy Serrano was the last one that I know about. My family and I went his wedding in Espanola in this huge community hall. We were literally the only Anglo guests out of many, many hundreds of people. Andy married the receptionist from the Forest Supervisors Office, a Spanish girl who was a real beauty named Lorri and was just as nice as she could be. I heard Andy retired as a Santa Fe National Forest District FMO a few years ago. Nope…Fred trained the people who trained Scott for sure and of course you would automatically defend him, but it really isn’t necessary since Fred was an exceptional crew boss with a very impressive history, but the hotshot culture and ethos of following a crew boss, even if he or she is wrong, is a very powerful force for those who are immersed in the culture and live the lifestyle That’s the reason the Woodsman got it right, if there are any other Gordon Kings, Tony Czaks, or Eric Marsh’s out there they need to be outed, purged and then their crews need to be rehabilitated because they will follow their crew bosses down the next death chute…you can take that to the bank and cash it.
The Spanish people of Northern New Mexico place a very high value on family (as do all Hispanic people) and that was just one thing I loved and admired about them. Family always came first.
CORRECTION, I bet you could go out with the Santa Fe Hotshots today and you would think Amos Coochyama is runnin’ that crew. Amos was the first Happy Jack Hotshot crew boss (and my first crew boss as well) and he begat Jeff (Denny) Denepont and Denny begat me, who was the last Happy Jack Hotshot Crew Bose. So…
Sonny,
I am at a loss for words to tell you how badly I feel for your son Jaime, you and everyone who loves him. All I can say is that since I went through a similar experience with my little brother more than 10 years ago, I can relate to how you feel. And you already know from the loss of Ted (I hope I remembered his name right, if not, I apologize) that the pain is never going to go away. Life just isn’t fair. And I know everyone who takes part in this blog feels just as badly as I do.
Thanks Gary for your concerns–It is these tragedies that bear so hard on us and gives us heart and incentive to go forward in revealing the truth to those whose hearts have been broken with the deaths of the 19 young wild land fire fighters at Yarnell. No tragedy could be worse to a parent to see the suffering and death of a son or daughter. That is why those of us whom have lost our loved ones and friends are so determined to do what we can to prevent more of the same. Gary, I can appreciate your efforts with those that continue to post and seek the truth and reveal it so that changes will be made to improve the safety of future wild land fire fighters.
These young men do not need the extra burden of danger of needless and careless risk taking to protect structures. They have enough danger to deal with even with the safety procedures in place. They also have the ongoing crisis to their health to deal with in life with the constant exposure to chemicals and smoke. Their minimal compensation should not be paid with added danger and excess exposure to chemicals that are highly suspect and laden with secret ingredients. It is a blight on the system and investigators to allow hidden facts of the true reasons for the GMHS deaths to be hidden as much as it is to have hidden chemicals dispersed in human habitations and environment,
Yarnell will always be known for its blunder of the killing of 19 for no good reason. It will also become known to prove how deadly the excessive orange retardant drops on and about the small village of 645 residents was to the elderly and others with lowered immune systems.
I salute DND for bravely coming forward with information. I believe his example and honesty will be followed. There are many that know the truth, yet for unhealthy reasons have been bullied into being quiet about what really happened at Yarnell. They do know the tragic results of holding back the truth, yet one must understand these people have to keep their careers, feed their families and want to go forward in what the work they choose to do. So it is indeed a hard decision with certain officials and authorities attempting to enforce the false presentation of the GMHS deaths. Perhaps the higher authorities, such as the Congressmen will lift the mum orders and redactions and allow people their first amendment of freedom of speech, religion, press and so forth–things not only many soldiers have died in action to protect but in truth also those officers and fire fighters who have laid their lives on line to protect and save the lives of those entitled to those freedoms.
We go though a grief period–how can we not. I left my good paying job at the death of Ted and wandered the streets of Seattle for a year–it is a time to rethink life when you are older and you loose a son as precious he was to me. So I say this so those that have not had the experience know how important to people it is that more care is taken.
It is certain that the Yarnell deaths were not accidents. There was carelessness and needless risky action taken. Those issues need to be to the forefront and addressed to save lives from again being killed in the same manner.
Facebook
Some time back I remember Joy asking what we thought about Facebook.
I have enjoyed keeping in touch with family and friends through Facebook over the years and viewed it as a positive way to stay in touch.
Lately however I have noticed comments that I did not post appearing on other people’s account as if I made them. These are usually in the form of something to the effect of“Diane Lomas likes this”.
This can give a reader the wrong impression of my beliefs and what I support.
I noted and saw it
I did think hmmm…
Yes, October 10, 2019 I asked on IM in chapter 29 if anyone used Facebook.
That was the time PURE DISGUST was flowing on social media and like I said then NO MATTER HOW DARK the ONES want to orchestrate, in God’s time the air to ground and I will cover Battlement Creek Fire too so Shawna will have her story told as well as Vicki C. on Yarnell…
I also talked about the double agent where one is an avatar here yet interesting to see what they do on FB…
Diane and I from my field notes spoke when I was in Payson area Fall 2018 on the benefits of social media but as well the cons as I explained why I would never join Facebook. If we ever tied the blog to Facebook it would be from another contributing author. I won’t nor ever will I use Facebook. I find when people alert me of that social media area it seems to be negative information.
I do find it odd one would not just fix the LIKE area versus come to IM and show and claim it is not you doing it which I find to be very credible because many have shown how they have had stuff happen but why throw it out without showing where it was happening because where could matter. Like saying hypothetical I Joy seem to be showing I liked a recent post of AM on her distaste of an IM person but it was not me and I notified Facebook to have tech support look into it. That leaves no way to scratch my head. Right now it made no sense to place out as a general. it left me confused. Did it show you with a LIKE to someone causing IM harm? Than I can get posting it.
For the record I mention in regards to facebook 11 15 19 metadata and Dakota Slone but I am not a social media gal … it takes another to alert me … I do pop on at times to see if Donut is doing his duty to the 19 men but he is still doing life and job stuff. The first hand people who have not shown their pics…it could be as simple as numb nut activities where hotshot took pics of their crew logo over say another crews logo and playing around cultural stuff the general world would not comprehend. Could be simple horsing around pics but Tru and others have to get the SAIT SAIR is harmful and no matter how one drinks the kool aid…still..you are drinking it and allowing the acceptance and for that I have to put my faith in the Lord you tell the world not select few the truisms because it’s wrong …we were there so Sonny and I can talk.
Question for Diane Lomas
You are one of the finest human beings I have known
Sonny and I applaud your many years on here
Is there any area you are still left puzzled on the YHFire?
Joy–who does AM like on IM? Maybe Holley? Anyone that challenges the truth of the official investigation of the death of the 19 GMHS crew and believes Marsh was one of the main, if not the main reason the crew is dead, the Amanda Marsh will have a truck with them. Nothing against her personally since anyone that prefers to live in fantasy land has that option in America. But denial of the real reason the men are dead–That Mr. Marsh by reasons of careless and wilful and needless risk taking killed his crew and himself, will not benefit the safety of future young wild land fire fighters. Instead it may cause a repeat of the hiring practice of risk taking crew bosses that put their self glory and so called attempt to protect structures.
It was certain that Mr. Marsh was a nice person to meet. But nice appearances do not always coincide with correct and safe methods to fight wild fires. Amanda might dislike me for certain, since at that very juncture on the two track was where you could not have driven me down into that canyon with a bull whip.
In fact, after topping the Weavers from that two track spot–and I would guess it was a bit over 20 minutes for me to make the top of the Weavers from that spot, I decided to retrieve Joy at all costs–and I was of the notion that wind would change in an instant at any moment–I made decision that I would go back and challenge Joy to follow me out instead of the route she had decided to take.
There she was with her boots off watching the fire and under that solo pinon tree trying to cool down in 100 degree temperatures. I did some cussing as I remember to get her to move out with me–Joy seldom gives in when she makes up her mind–you go your way–I will go mine she says. But she relented–It saved me a bad conscience for the rest of my life and was the right thing to do. I might have been and likely in Arizona would have been charged with some kind of homicide since I knew better than dropping off that two track and entering that bear wallow of dense dry manzanita with the wind about to change at any moment. Arizona is in not short suppy of prisoners and with all its new prisons being built and the feds paying about 50 grand a year to house them then it has become a big business deal with the tax payer supporting these corporate rip offs. That is true though in just about all states where you see people doing life for weed possession. Three strikes you are out stuff., But that is another story that no one wants to address. The real felons are those distributing the retardant poisons and chemicals into the environments with full knowledge of what they are doing just as tobacco companies qualify.
So that is my radical thinking and opinions, quite sharp but to the point.
As Joy, I do not do the Face Book Thing but once did leave my photo there–a photo of a meteorite thinking I might converse with people interested in such things. But it is good to have many interests–and especially those that might help us understand that there is a good way to do things and there is one based on ego, glory and greed. And when the latter is engaged then the result as we saw in the case of 19 dead GMHS wild land fire fighers, can produce horrific results.
The results everyone says were human factors to be politely said. These days everyone is afraid to call a spade a spade. That in itself is a form of dishonesty when double speak and foggy words are used to describe the facts. Sorry but you can not make it any better by trying to put a silk lining to nasty decisions that killed 19 men.
I have to believe people are so jaded to death that they can cover up the reasons without consideration of the loved ones and friends and even worse is the disregard to the safety of the future young lives that will be fighting these wild fires.
Rule number 1–you never, never, never risk your crew by dropping off into a steep canyon choke full of dead and dehydrated brush manzanita, that is almost impassable to flank a mega fire while you know the wind direction is apt to change at any moment and block any hope of escape to act like you have guts to try to protect some structures. That is written in some of the wild land fire fighting talks by men of long time fire fighting experience, not me.
I would suggest if you think you ought to be protecting structures, then you should quit wild land fire fighting and take up engine and city fire fighting. That is what they do, and even they do it with great caution even with proper equipment to do so. Consider that the wild land fire fighter is less equipped to protect structures than a home owner –at least the home owner has a fire hose.
And yes I know, the wild land fire fighter can protect structures by drip torching as they did at the Shrine and Sessame Street Road. But there was no way GMHS crew could have out run a fire headed to Yarnell and no way that the hundreds of thousands of gallons of retardant in and around Yarnell could stop it either. In fact, Wooten and Morrison, the PhD fire scientists said Yarnell burned just as it would in any wild fire without the retardant–the percentages were according to who had defensible space–the 40 mph winds and rain of embers burned just what would have burned in any instance.
As far as most that post here are concerned, the Yarnell wild land fire fighting management was screwed up. It was a bungled job that needs to be understood and changed by admitting to the boondoggle so other groups do not repeat. Marsh goes down in history as the key reason the men are dead. Custer screwed up killing his men as well–just bad leadership and a need to choose better leaders–Custer too sought to prove himself and what a cost it was.
Yes Joy there is much I do not understand–generally how that such a blatant disaster can continue to be painted as a glorious attempt to fight a wild fire–not a terrible example of how not to fight wild fires and erroneous methods of bosses to risk and kill their crew. Wow, what baloney we are fed and told it is prime beef.
There is always some good news among the bad. I was thinking of Gary–if his pension goes bad then the whole situation goes bad for everyone–for that time of revolution he talks about. Those with government jobs did fine during the depression–government needs to continue, unless it becomes so tyrannical and dishonest so that it no longer serves the interest of the people, but instead is skewed in the direction of the corporate and elite that in the end have little care for the masses. They would involve themselves in their own concerns of control, wealth and more wealth. Thee never seems to be an end to the God syndrome with these types-what is the end of enough is enough–a billion and beyond? But money means control and the more the better if you are a control freak. In a psychological analysis it is a mind sickness.
There is one thing we can not avoid–we live in a dangerous technological age–from the time I was a elementary student learning to crawl under my desk and cover my head in case of a nuclear attack to a day that if a terrorist cell can take out a city like LA or New York with a suitcase nuke, things have changed only for the worse.
Governments of substance all have nukes, are manufacturing disease germs such as ebola, caronavirus, aids, zombie virus, and you name it to add to the deadly chemical toxins like sarin and Zyclon B cyanide gasses to distribute among the masses. Add to that the chemicals added to the environment with impunity by corporate interests, oil and plastic companies, and mining companies including uranium, phosphate, copper and the like, not to mention the killer coal industry, and you have a litany of destructive forces eating away at the earth’s habitable environment.
Yet most of us go through our day with little thought to it all. It is overwhelming to the mind after all if you weigh it for where were are at challenging the earth’s delicate environment. It will not take much to alter conditions on earth so that human life can not survive above ground. Perhaps science will be able to alter DNA so that future humans can live like lizards and snaked for prolonged periods underground. Some in Politics and their bed buddies in Corporations already have some of the lizard and snake DNA so that might be a good place to start.
The problems can be addressed, but first a problem must be recognized. That you find on the small media sources and Investigative Media stands out with John shooting arrows at the giant. There is hope–David slew the giant Philistine with only a sling shot.
So we go about life hoping for the best but be prepared for the worse.
On a personal level, my son Ted, now deceased from a job and a careless boss, had been commissioned to a Nuclear Sub, before he became a deep sea diver and underwater welder. So now, I have a grandson who has been serving on a Nuclear Sub for a number of years. He intends to make the Navy as a career and has just re-enlisted and his wife is also in the Navy, although not on that sub.
I was thinking, that might be the best place to be. Ted had told me they eat the finest–Marines that were dispached off his sub could not believe the food those Nuclear Sub fellows eat. Steaks and fine eating. while that Marine is on MRE rations.
If all hell breaks loose–a distinct possibility–then life on the Nuclear Sub could be just about all that is left on this planet. Maybe there is some consolation that the Gilligan name will continue on–at least for a year when all else might be gone. I understand those things can go for a year without surfacing–I will have him fill me in on the particulars since he is on leave for a week and intends to visit.
It would be wise to add a cowboy, an underground miner, a logger, and by all means a wild land fire fighter to that Submarine–that is if they are serious about surviving this earth if all is devastation on land. I think to get onto one of those subs you need some kind of a bat hide or at least working toward one. There are quite a few of those I mentioned that would qualify and even might know something about how to survive off the land even without the paper dollar.
Don’t worry, Trump and company are fine for at least a year in the underground cities. He will enjoy living like a lizard–all the equipment is in order, even oxygen making equipment and underground golf course with the full 18 holes and clubhouse.
Some cowboy said you can lead a horse to water by you can’t make him drink. But you can get him damn thirsty before you take him to the water.
Those that post on IM hope to make some thirsty to come forward with the truth–I believe DNA has added to that thirst. I sometimes wonder if there is anything we can do beyond hopes that will bring the truth to light. Then I think of RTS putting so much of his own finances and retirement at risk so that the truth might be known. Add to that the others here that post and even Jonh Daugherty himself sacrificing personal life immediately to get to the bottom of things concerning the death of the 19 GMHS crew and of course Joy, whom has run the course full steam despite the many roadblocks in her search for understanding the tragedy that should never have happened. The top seekers include WTKTT, Gary, Woodsman, Norb and many others that add greatly to the search for and revelation of the truth.
Tonight I tuned into American Idol–a young Black Man was singing the blues, ‘The Whipping Post” and so perfect it brought tears to my eyes. He had lost his dear Mother and that song spoke to his sadness. The loss of a loved one tears at the soul and as he sang that song I felt his pain.
In truth I had three daughters, two were full term baby girls that were stillborn. And my son Mark said on a recent visit, “Dad you are soon going to have only one son left.” Maybe he knows since he has been a Registered Nurse and for beyond a decade has worked in the Emergency Room at the hospital. That has to be a trying job to see all those brought in by ambulance–some dead and many clinging to life by a thread.
But it is reality for him so he knows about seeing the loved ones and their travails and must share the sadness and suffering of the families and friends and help at the same time attend the wounds and illness of the victims.
I sometimes wish we could turn back time and somehow could have deterred those men from going down into that trap and instead of Joy and I standing at the two track, it would have been cowboy Rick Mckensey. He had warned them earlier not to drop down into the manzanita if the fire got down the mountain. And if he were there, with his 320 pounds of muscle he could have wrestled Marsh to the ground with ease. I am certain at that point on the two track that even Steed would have given ear to McKensey. But the road that was taken and the bad decisions made that day and even from the beginning of that fire that should have been early quenched can not be changed.
Yet to make the true nature of the needless killing of those men is the real travesty. The hope to learn from that event by hiding the truth to protect a few reputations can not justify the cover up–most especially since it concerns the safety of future young wild land fire fighter lives.
I would say had my son died in that ordeal, I would be incensed at the people responsible for producing a phony report that justified the deaths of men killed so needlessly.
I hope that the good people that report here continue to make the horse thirsty with their encouragement.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/questions-remain-three-years-after-yarnell-hill-fire-disaster/#comment-470744
GMHS loved ones
Remember this lady exists even if Pete Masiel is no longer with us
She too could shed light Woodsman on important areas.
https://youtu.be/9jNPRmfVxWI
Also pure people like this lady only gets under 1000 hits but the deceiver and the lies keep growing
Pray for the lost who facade an image of untruths
Gary,
Bill Buck memories…1977👨🏻🚒
Model 70 siren at 4am with Bill Bucks team on a fire on the North Kaibab
They used a model 70 engine siren to wake WFs up at 4am
Yoda talk for ya😏
The man on the loud speaker said🎤
It’s 4oclock
Hands off your …
Grab your socks
It’s time to get up🌞
Wake up Wildfighters
Sounds military to me Gary🕵️♂️
Maybe there is something to what RTS says on the quasi military in the fire industry.
I love all the old time retired Wildland firefighters and their real time experiences … we should have you all make a 10 and 18 video for NWCG
or we could get this guy Firefighter Fenton to make one yet we know he believes the 10 and 18 are serious
I asked would he make a diddy on the 10 and 18 that takes the NIFC NWCG 10 and 18 and show how hokey it is and have this guy who gets the fire industry and humor and do one in serious tone for the 10 and 18 but his reply was …
Honestly, I like the idea but I would not want to make a parody song for those, as each one of them has been written with someone’s blood. I like it for memorizing them but that is one area I don’t want to touch.
https://youtu.be/XjgjSKv4a04
We need to bridge the old with the new or we are screwed
Caples Fire RX hashtag
In Jay Kurths professional backyard
We KNOW the folks at certain dispatch areas FAILED us all on Yarnell and Crystal has a duty to speak up … Pete Masiel cannot … come on Crystal
Look at Caples Fire RX
Dispatchers have a duty to do the right thing.
https://youtu.be/awpNmK0X8Kk
For the hybrids … the guy does piece together true parodies we all can relate to no matter if Wildland or structure or both
Yes…that is what they often said and how they often said it. And RTS is right…it is a quasi military culture. And the Woodsman is right as well…it’s a wildland firefighter culture. It’s COMPLICATED and really hard to explain to those who haven’t lived it with all of the nuance it deserves.
I have tried over the past seven years to both describe the culture and justify it with limited success since I often confuse even myself. But there is one thing I know for sure, it’s not just a job…it’s a lifestyle. And after I lost it…I spent the next 18 years looking for something like it.
The best way I can explain it…is by saying it’s like being at a forward operating base with a Special Operations Group where Lord of the Flies meets Animal House while doing a lot of project work in the forest that doesn’t need to be done in between hurrying up to wait by either standing or hiking in a long lines that is punctuated by periodic episodes of catastrophic wildfire of Biblical proportions that makes you feel alive with a sense of purpose while belonging to something bigger than yourself. It’s complicated.
And then you go to the bar for choir practice to talk about the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire with people who understand you and think like you do…more or less given how different RTS and I are. And yet, we are the same…more or less.
Question: Big G….is it worth it?
Answer: Oh yeah…it’s worth it. If you’re strong enough. 😎
Whooos…forgot the link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NqR6CBFyelw
I forgot about the four years I spent in fire dispatch/coordination. So in total…I spent 22 years looking for something like it after I lost it….whatever it was?
Oh…and one more thing. And now all I have left is the memory of it…whatever the fuck it was? Well that…plus my pension and now my Medicare. God Bless America and our own form of socialism. But…God Damn both Bernie Sanders AND Donald Trump. I think we might be fucked this time with no way out? Whoops…I did it again, I backslid into politics. I need to go on a really long road trip…or walkabout…or something?
I mean…can’t we all just agree to elect a moderate Republican as President with a moderate Democrat as Vice President or vice versa…I don’t care? Do we really have to choose between either blowing our house up or burning it down?
Whatever happened to Infrastructure Week? I thought we were going to work on infrastructure by starting to rebuild America and not prepare for a coming Civil War? A lot of Americans are going to die at the hands of other Americans and maybe fuck up my retirement in the process! Can’t we all just agree to think about what’s best for me?
Agreed with what you said
We all need to think and rethink how this will affect Gary and his pension
Gary is right
I knew this was coming, Gary.
What are your thoughts.
I predicted your concerns back in 1988 and mentioned it in my government class and when I was in Mr Kemper’s Law and Debate class we showed concern for you and your pension way back then
Why do you think I am not “just” doing investigation and forensic weather but I am training in the law area just because I did think about YOUR pension. Sonny, you thought about Gary’s pension, right? I know others are Gary …
👨🏻🚒🕵️♂️🙊🙉🙈🗝👩🏼⚖️✝️🔬🧐🤔🤭😬🙄😲🥴👍🙏✍️🗣👩🏼🎓👩🏫👩💻👩💼👩🏼🔧🦸♀️💁🏼♀️🙅🏼♀️🙋🏼♀️🤦🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🙍♀️🧵🧶🐷🦉🐌
WOW…somebody actually asked what my thoughts are even if Joy might just be joking with me! My thoughts are that I don’t think things could get more polarizing than they are shaping up to be right now in the US over the next year. Trump isn’t going to leave office without people dying in the streets even if he loses far and share and with the Russians and who knows who else screwing around in our elections, I think there are going to be a lot of people who think the election was stolen from them no matter how it turns out. And with a lot of really angry people with easy access to a lot of guns, I think it is going to get real western that will make the LA riots after the Rodney King verdict look like a picnic at the park. I do think a lot of cities are going to burn. Trumps election was an over correction to the Obama election and now the stunning rise of an admitted and proud socialist is an over correction to the Trump election. With a President-Elect Sanders waving his arms around like a third grader on Ridalin spewing out leftist Trump-like hate speech, all bets are going to be off. The countryside where most of the Trump supporters live in rural America won’t burn, but there will be mass demonstrations in the cities that will turn into riots and then the looting, burning and killing will start. But…as we all know, I am a glass-that’s-half-empty-that-somebody-probably-pissed-in kind of guy, so maybe everything will work out fine? Now…I have to go place another big order over the Internet to have a few thousand more bullets to be delivered right to my doorstep. Just kidding…I’m not going to be doin’ any fightin’, I’m going to be in the backcountry admiring the sunsets watching the smoke columns rise over the mountains in the far distance. I don’t have a piece of the pie to die fightin’ over and both my pension and Social Security checks (and inquiring minds want to know…I switched to FERS the second time they offered it while locking in 22 years of CSRS so I have the best of both worlds by accessing all of the quarters of SS from other jobs including all of the years I worked as a temporary employee even with the WIP, Windfall Elimination Provision) are electronically deposited in my account. So…I’m good.
And ahhhh…that should be WEP, but I got the FERS and CSRS parts right. So…I’m still good.
And I guess that should be “Socialist” with a capital “S”? But fuck it…a year from now people won’t have time to worry about either my or auto corrects mistakes in grammar or expletives because they will be to damn busy with other things like picking up the bodies off the streets so widespread diseases don’t get worse. First the Far Right and now the Far Left? Fuck me!
In other words…a Fascist versus a Socialist for POTUS in 2020. What could possibly go wrong?
Fascism (/ˈfæʃɪzəm/) is a form of far-right, authoritarian ultranationalism characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy which came to prominence in early 20th-century Europe.
Love him or hate him…that is what he is. And if you disagree…denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Good Evening IM,
I took some time to look back at June 30th 2013 and how much time, money and pain went into creating and nurturing the lie that was not only sold but bought by an infinite number of people. I watched the Dudley video shot in 2014 in SLC Utah again and really listened to what he was saying. It was both what and how he said what he said that re-solidified my feelings about how easy it is for any governmental “Agency” to lie when things go terribly wrong. I found an 18 second version of the Mackenzie video that has been dissected, redacted and cut to steer the “Real Conversation” that occurred before the final 1.2 mile hike was made from the lunch spot to the Deployment site.
https://youtu.be/omfw_Unt_VQ
As the camera pans right at the end of the clip, the first sign of distension for what was being asked was captured (again). Dudley would say in his presentation that “All of them were all packed up, ready to go”. He continued to take questions from the crowd that were placed very well, almost like the “Rules” were stated before they shot the presentation. Any-time Dudley was hit with a Human factor question he diverted and answered with a question himself. He openly admits that from the get go, “We weren’t trying to do another 30 mile fire investigation”, “We all agreed (the team) to work off of a NWCG based investigative format that just so happened to have changed in 2013. In not so many words he says “They didn’t want to say or infer anything that would attract litigation”. Look back at the 30 mile fire and you will see the outcomes of naming names, which I believe is right, the truth is right. The team that investigated the YHF was carefully chosen to avoid litigation.
https://youtu.be/iWm3myJdQO4
He tried to sell to the group and the world that no-one heard any crew freq’s or communications but when it really mattered, you can hear people talking, or shall I say the audio released. To invite a room full of firefighters to Indoctrinate them, in-front of high level supervisors has always been a tactic used by the USFS and other like fire agencies. One person hits a nerve and the world comes down on them. Look at Dr. Putnam. He is the most respected fireline fatality investigator on the earth but great effort has been made to keep him away from the factual information. After South Canyon, the Agency turned their back on him. I would wager my home that if given the same chance at investigating the YHF and all information both public and kept under lock and key, the outcome would be much, much different. Anytime someone gets close publicly immense barriers are erected to stop the truth from being told. People like Dudley have been covering things up for years, they are skilled at deception. Look at this video shot in 2014 deemed, “Honor the Fallen”
https://youtu.be/TE6Rfa3Vuo0
Another attempt to Indoctrinate the masses and create a vacuum that puts new and seasoned firefighters in future danger allowing apathy to replace ROE’s and the truth. I absolutely denounce the video above and know this kind of attempt was created to deceive the masses, firefighters included. I know 2 of these gentlemen and I know they were being spoon fed BS, they knew it but if they didn’t follow the rules made by their supervisors, that would certainly mean trouble for their careers. In short, they all said, “We can’t do things by the book, it’s impossible”. Again an attempt to divert from the truth. In closed sessions country wide I know people that know better and knew that dozens of factors, human included were why the guys left a outstanding safety zone. Dudley said in his video that, “It is illegal to not engage on a fire, we can’t just sit around”. Really Mr. Dudley? If that’s the truth I’m headed to prison for life. It is OK to write off homes to ensure no one is harmed or worse. The “Honor the Fallen” video was a poorly placed attempt to erase the truth but it was created for the future staff rides that were to surely follow.
About two weeks ago, OMNI, a staff ride company put on a USFS sponsored and paid for YHF staff ride. It wasn’t made “well known” to the general public but reserved solely for all of the IHC overhead in the country. No family, no eye witnesses except for IHC crew members there on June 30th 2013. It was made known that this staff ride was for IHC’s only. Two days and 200+ people attended including S. Legarza and other USFS royalty. One family member was present and gave an emotion speech to the groups towards the end. The staff ride was to follow SAIT/SAIR reports exclusively, no opinions or truths welcome. The Agency made sure that the “Elite” had eyes and ears near them if anyone was to “Speak-up”. That is a terrible tactic but has proven to steer the cattle in the direction the Agency wants the information to be told. If they could make the majority of the IHC world agree to the blatant lie then they could change the way smart and professional IHC’s think. I know a lot of those that attended and allot of them know the real truth. Initially I thought it was a bad thing having this IHC only staff ride. As it has played out, it is the best thing that has happened because it clearly shows a pattern of lies and Indoctrination. D. Willis was there as a SME (subject matter expert) and denounced his long history with the PFD. I do not consider him as a SME, why not let TRUE and Brian speak up, why not the “Hikers”, why not the families? The answer, the truth now will cost millions to those that lied. I believe that the recordings and redactions will be brought to light.
It is easy for me to see the patterns and by admission Dudley stated “They didn’t want to have another 30 mile report”. I know that these videos and information isn’t new. I encourage all to look back and understand this is how people hide the truth. Sometimes sitting back and allowing someone to lie enough is the path to the truth. Charlie, I am here for you Amigo, for real, know that we all are. WTKTT. I am working on a response to your question from last month. I want to be as open as possible now that I am processing the pain much better now.
This isn’t a Battlefield, there aren’t acceptable losses and we can avoid fatalities IF, we follow the rules and truly care about ourselves and our people. Enough for now..
DownhillIndirect
Sir,
Do you know there is a grown man who told me he was asleep on the YHF when he was suppose to be working and fighting it … I think he has familia that were hired to do the same on the SAIR … Did they really think the world was THAT dummified …???
A lot of information you shared yet it was also told to me Dudley could be sued as the person not the employee and it happened on a prior fire … was it South Canyon? Probably thirty mile it was … anyways I really do not think there is a time on it if it happens.
I always enjoyed Dudley in how he presents but the content I always said was dangerous just as I pick apart Honor The Fallen but the most dangerous message this past week was Holls…I know many reached me and alerted me of it. This National Event that has not happened in ages was not just oh let’s run with it … to ignore family members on this event yet I was shared all the details from the inside what unfolded … sorry but pure truth will wash out any messages this week.
It is insidious, these behaviors.
Thanks DND for the comment…reminded me why I keep at it
DND
My old time Squaw Peak pals kept me in the loop of this week
My Pointe pals were truly sad by what they saw as they know I spend hour after hour educating … learning … digging for truth. They explained their perceptions of who bought into what your Sup friends experienced.
You are right … more went thru the motion … and selfie moments … then went on to say it is sad.
Joy,
Look at you, training is GOOD, so are you!
DND
Dear Children of the GMHS,
When you are of age or have a healthy parental guide Under age 18 I will show you the paths of your Daddy June 30, 2013 know matter how old I am when it happens and no matter the health. I will show you all the areas and this includes Donuts kids. Even Frisby, certain station in Prescott not in the public eye, and a few others I saw out there…you are as well welcome.
Right now certain leaders of the military prefers my STAFF RIDE over the SAIT SAIR so there are some trying to get a military staff ride using my documents for their leaders vs SAIT SAIR and I am okay with that and I would do that in a structured facilitated formal way.
Yet, you will never see me out there trying to fill your heads with narratives .. I will show you how to get the data yourself and make your own assessments and unlike others you see out their on the Weavers they do not want you to record due to sensitivities and I say to the world RECORD ME and if I am in AZ or any other state or country … record me. The only recording I do not allow is man made setup entrapment moments I have seen. That is evil. If you call me or see me in person or whatever the case if you are in my space with pure intention than you can record yet NO to anyone who do it to set up entrapments or have ill intent or harm my way than I refuse those folks permissions. Holly Neill until we meet in person and come to agreeable terms, her and John Norman MacLean and Alan Sinclair are not allowed to use any of my information includes photos and videos that were mine or anything from my blog. They need to rectify formally areas before I allow such path. I am not closed off to them. They both stated they have different research styles to me and I just want the ones who were there to speak up and not allow narratives…Tru totally knows what I mean there.
If anyone would head the staff ride it should be Joy. Her photos, her experience of being there on the fire edge observing all the action right from the spot the men descended to their deaths and her years of consulting and interviewing witnesses and wild land fire fighting experts, a multitude of FOIA reports, her incessant study of the Yarnell Fire, and her attention to detail and even wild land fire fighting certification and investigation credentials would give her the qualifications not other could render.
There would be few if any question that Joy could not answer about that fire–even take the participants on the very hike the GMHS took and her last photos of them–hundreds of photos of the fire they were fighting and even the locations and times of their equipment as seen from their view on the two track. She was there that very view and she walked in their tracks and watched them and photographed them and their leader Eric Marsh even as they looked like ants at the bottom of the Weavers hiking up to the fire edge where she already was.
So Joy has an amazing fact filled story to tell, photos to back up her story and the credentials to give it.
It is certain that one day the kids will grow up and they will want to know the truth of why they lost their father. Other people will want to know as well the reason 19 GMHS men are dead. Joy will not lie or dodge the truth to please anyone–that I know–she will be the good book that people will want to refer to for understanding of why those men are dead.
I have not taken the staff ride–and I Joy has been denied the Staff ride more than one time.
They fear the facts she has will shake the ride–no eyewitness report from Joy and her many photographs and fact finding missions to be allowed. That only adds to the real truth of how things are manipulated to present the false reports of what really happened.
I had not seen the videos that DNS presented. You certainly can read the body language from Dudley–his presentation is not what he really knows and believes–he has honor beneath so his presentations are eating at his soul. You see his face contorting, his arms crossed at times, his flinching, and even squeezing his fingers. He really wants to tell the truth as he knows it but is hung up in the system. DNS is correct in his evaluations—DNS knows more than most of us since he has better inside knowledge and understanding than Carroll or Dudley.
Dudley says some of the most important information comes from Blue Ridge. Yet once they talked to Blue Ridge, they were ordered mum as were the other important sources of the facts. There can be only one reason Dudley and others refuse to let the men who know the truth –and that is that what Dudley is saying would be refuted. He does just as DND says, represent the State and can not give the true nature of the events that killed the GMHS crew.
In the video you can see the boulder patches directly behind Carroll and others talking–how little vegetation in those areas–but nothing was said about that. What Dudley does not mention at all were the hikers and how can a civilian recognize the danger of dropping off into a box canyon choke full of manzanita to attempt to get to a Ranch House that really was of dubious safety with a mega fire raging. That was about an hour before those men came to that same spot on the two track and attempted to flank the fire as Dudley put it. That they did with full knowledge of the wind shift about to happen..
And Dudley has the balls to say that Marsh was absolutely not a risk taker after all that and the Doce Fire incident. He has to be one of the best cons but his body language tells me it is eating on him.
I really have to believe that the Blue Ridge were engaged in burnouts in an attempt to protect structures at Yarnell–that along the Sesame St. Dirt Road below the canyon of death. Donut had once stated they were passing through embers crossing the road. Some of the witnesses that saw him coming out said his eyes told them they better move out as well. But I also have to believe that Marsh had known since Dudley admits there were communications and specifically between Marsh and the Blue Ridge Captain–Brian Frisby. Only when Frisby is allowed freedom to talk can this be confirmed.
Yes, we early on that morning when at the fire edge saw a yellow and white helicopter–Joy took photos of that. It actually came down near enough to fan the fire to a degree. I had wondered since the fire at the beginning was observed by helicopter, did it also fan the early fire. Surely they know better–but safety because they can not go up and take care of a fire in the night? The facts were that fire was in an area of boulders that were sparse in vegetation. So sparse that we observed Marsh crossing back and forth across the fire edge with ease.
Yet they decided not to take care of it before it got into the manzanita area that had been zoned as the most extreme for fire danger? Yes they did need to relieve some of those fire chiefs from duty.
If Dudley and others were honest, they would have no qualms of removing mum orders and redactions from their reports. However as DND points out, he is a patsy for the State.
Thanks DND–I had gone to town, there were two calves stranded along fence near the Border Patrol Inspection port on I-10 near my place–so I stopped to let the Border Patrol Officer know so he could inform the rancher. I also had to point out to him how the southern half of the skies were fully covered with a dirty looking white haze. Four jets were parallel flying and dispersing the substance to make the clouds and some of the droppings were such that serrated bulbs of the substance were falling–kind of like the lace you see on some ladies underwear. Those are not natural con trails at all and you would have to be blind not to see this.
Well, for certain El Paso, and Juarez, Mexico are getting a good dousing of whatever chemicals are involved. I suppose that the idea is to provide cover for the ozone depletion. And maybe it is Trump’s greeting to the immigrants that want to breach the border and the citizens of El Paso. I am certain that the troops in Fort Bliss are inoculated if there is ;a; bird flue or coronavirus involved–most El Pasoans have been inoculated. There was a drive there and in Las Cruces–free vaccinations even at Wal Mart. So perhaps there is something more than the usual dispersants of strontium, barium, and particulate Aluminum. My breath is already so short that I ought to be wearing a surgical mask–and I have some ordered.
If you don’t have a few dust masks hanging around it might be wise to spend a few bucks on some. If this coronavirus shows up here, it is very volatile and will be air born. You only need a surgical mask to protect–especially if you do crowds a lot or visit the hospital or clinic.
Cheers–It may get worse before it gets better–But I was once a Boy Scout–the motto–Be Prepared.
Excuse the misidentification–DND has credit for the videos and other revelations–DNS might not exist.
Charlie,
No worries amigo, I’m the king of typo’s.
DND
DND, Then you write, post and review later. I am prone to butcher the Queen’s English–but mostly the people here are kind enough to forgive.
This is from the Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations website regarding the June 30, 2013 YH Fire Aerial Firefighting Utilization and Effectiveness (AFUE) FOIA Request lawsuit
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/12/Fred-J-Schoeffler-the-USFS-Aerial-Firefighting-Use-and-Effectiveness-AFUE-Study-Was-Utilized-On-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-on-June-30-2013-and-recorded-Air-To-Ground-AG-radio-transmissions-that-exist-as-audio-and-written-transcripts-These-recordings-and-transcripts-3-ring-binder-are-being-withheld-and-denied-that-they-even-exist-I-just-came-across-a-few-key-public-records-basically-affirming-they-do-in-fact-exist-So-then-how-can-the-US-Forest-Service-ethically-and-legally-continue-to-deny-these-Public-Records-exist )
Figure 5. USDA Office of General Counsel (OGC) General Law and Research Division email from Associate General Counsel L. Benjamin Young to USFS Fire Director Tom Harbour regarding YH Fire AFUE records. Red highlighted area referenced below. Source: Joy A Collura’s FOIA Request (2016-FS-R3-04243-F)
“This August 20, 2013, email is a critically key one because it contains information from the USFS Deputy Fire Director Bob Baird to USFS Fire Director Tom Harbour, and George Vargas of the Office of Regulatory and Management Services (ORMS) and numerous OGC employees that the AFUE audio and video records do IN FACT EXIST. “Benny, George Vargas has custody of the disc with the video/audio files for the WO. He is cced.” (emphasis added) Let me further emphasize that in all caps. BENNY, GEORGE VARGAS HAS CUSTODY OF THE DISC WITH THE VIDEO/AUDIO FILES FOR THE WO. HE IS CC’ED. (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“This email thread (August 19-20, 2013) verifies that the USFS and the USDA OGC – the highest levels of Government – knew full well about the AFUE records. OGC Counsel Young wrote to USFS Harbour: ” Also, I understand from our Albuquerque office that a AFRUE (?) [sic] was flying at the time of the incident as part of a nationwide study on application of retardant and capture audio and video of a portion of the tragedy. I also understand ABC News has FOIA’d that tape. I also understand it is now in the hands of our office. Needless to say, please make sure nothing happens to those tapes. Also, please have some copies carefully made for preservation purposes. ” (emphasis added) (See Figure 5 above)
“They admit full well that these AFUE records exist AND to ensure that “nothing happens to those tapes” AND that they want “copies carefully made for preservation purposes.” Yet, in Public Records and FOIA Requests and as well Schoeffler’s FOIA Requests, they deny they exist (“no records responsive to your request”).
“And one more time, emphasized for good measure:
” BENNY, GEORGE VARGAS HAS CUSTODY OF THE DISC WITH THE VIDEO/AUDIO FOR THE WO. HE IS CC’ED.” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
AND
“ I ALSO UNDERSTAND IT IS NOW IN HANDS OF OUR OFFICE. NEEDLESS TO SAY, PLEASE MAKE SURE NOTHING HAPPENS TO THOSE TAPES. ALSO, PLEASE HAVE SOME COPIES CAREFULLY MADE FOR PRESERVATION PURPOSES. ” (EMPHASIS ADDED)
“They admit full well that these AFUE records exist: ” George Vargas has custody of the disc with the video/audio files for the WO … ” and ” I also understand it is now in the hands of our office. Needless to say, please make sure nothing happens to those tapes ” AND that they want ” copies carefully made for preservation purposes .” (emphasis added)
If all this is factual – which it appears that it is – then why are we being told that these very records that we have requested are being denied and told they have “no records responsive to your request”?
Additionally, you heard Attorney Schwartz mention the name ” Marvin .” This is the USFS Fire Management Officer employee that seized the 3-ring binder of June 2013 AFUE written / typed transcripts from his Assistant HS Foreman and threatened him to never collect any further evidence on the GMHS ever again.
The Ass’t HS Foreman later became a USFS HS Superintendent under Marvin on another Forest and Ranger District. This new HS Supt. initially supported the AFUE FOIA lawsuit with verbal confirmations about willing to testify in court and also willing to be subpoenaed for a deposition. He supplied a legal declaration for the case admitting the above.
An affidavit is a written document attached to an affirmation, such as a notary public oath, which states that the statements in the document are true. Declarations are written documents the writer believes are true, but the statements contained in the declaration are made without the writer being sworn in.
He would then be pressured by the USFS to change his legal declaration, which he did. And he turned Quisling , betrayed Schoeffler, and was duly “rewarded” with a promotion and a transfer to the Kootenai NF in Montana in USFS Region One as a GS-11 District Fire Management Officer. Marvin was similarly “rewarded.”
So much for the trusted Hot Shot “Brotherhood” and Honoring the Fallen, ey. As a reminder, Vidkun Abraham Lauritz Jonssøn Quisling was a Norwegian military officer and politician who nominally headed the government of Norway during the occupation of the country by Nazi Germany during World War II. The word “quisling” became a byword for “collaborator” or “traitor” in several languages, reflecting the contempt with which Quisling’s conduct has been regarded. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vidkun_Quisling )
These “rewards” are classic, historical USFS machinations ( “a scheming or crafty action or artful design intended to accomplish some usually evil end” ) for betrayals and such.
It becomes a sick organization that must work overtime to cover their tracks, misinformation and outright lies. I had been posting on 29 not realizing that so this one is appropriate to what RTS is going through and the attitude of some of the people involved in government offices and authority.
Sometimes if I go back and re read things–snowballed by lies not truth–hard snowballs at that. If there is a hell some of the Feds will burn especially those involved in such things as the Yarnell cover ups and using citizens for experiments and lab rats when they know the effects already but just want to verify their experiments–In Scientific circles you have to repeat experiments to see if they are repeatable. Common sense ought to do involving people exposed to the retardant, but what does it matter to some that they wiped out so many elderly at Yarnell?
And you say well that is outlandish thinking? Shit they had no qualms doing testing of Atom Bombs with citizens downwind getting heavy doses of radiation–nor did they mind sending crews in to inspect the bomb sites and clean up the area after. But you can bet those same scientists knew that Madam Curie and several that got exposed to Uranium accidentally at Los Alamos took a very quick and painful unnatural death from radiation poisoning–the Scientists certainly did not go in for clean up jobs. Nor did the Uranium Mining Companies take proper precautions for its miners–you can use any excuse to sacrifice men in the name of National Defense even after there is enough atomic artillery to destroy every living thing on earth.
And yes there are many, probably most scientists that are of a good and true nature and worry as much as any citizen about the environment and health of the people and the planet. But there are definitely some goats in high places that ought to be put out to pasture.
Reply
Charlie says
December 24, 2019 at 11:36 am
And to understand the goat– If you have a Mexican call you a Cabron, it is an insult–he called you a goat. If an Irishman calls you a Poc or if female a Minseach, I will let WTKTT tell you what that would mean.
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Firefighter fights feds for radio recordings from deadly Arizona wildfire ~ Missoula Current
https://www.missoulacurrent.com/government/2020/02/radio-recordings-wildfire/
The USDA USFS AFUE FOIA transcripts being requested are being withheld from public view. The transcripts augment the SAIT-SAIR statement by GMHS Marsh witnessing the lead plane dry run and stating, in part, “that’s exactly the routexwe want you to take.”
The USDA USFS contention that they have been turned over to AZ State Forestry as DropBox(es) is s Straw Man fallacy. Pnly some, NOT all have been turned over. The requested AFUE transcripts contained in a 3-ring binder are missing.
Joy has USFS and USDA Office of General Counsel email threads between their Fire Management Directors and OGC indicating that OGC George Vargas has copies of the recordings, noting how important they are, and to make copies “for preservation purposes.”
The USFS, who funded the ASF YH Fire SAIT-SAIR continues to lie to the American public.
Go to the USFS AFUE FOIA post on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com
This is a Daily Courier article titled: Lawsuit seeks radio recordings from Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots
( https://www.dcourier.com/news/2020/feb/13/lawsuit-seeks-radio-recordings-yarnell-hill-fire/ )
“Radio recordings that reportedly could shed light on the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy are at issue in an ongoing lawsuit that was heard by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in Phoenix on Feb. 7.
A three-justice panel of the 9th Circuit heard an appeal of a lower court’s ruling on former Payson Hotshot superintendent Fred Schoeffler’s ongoing legal effort to get information that he claims has been hidden by the U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA).
The suit, filed in 2017, seeks aircraft radio transmission recordings from the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 members of Prescott’s Granite Mountain Hotshots crew.
The half-hour-long hearing by the panel pits arguments by Schoeffler’s attorney David Richard Schwartz against those by USDA attorney Bill Solomon.
At issue in the suit is whether the USDA adequately searched for the documents that Schoeffler asked for in a 2016 Freedom of Information Act request.
On Feb. 7, Schwartz told the 9th Circuit panel: “This case involves whether the USDA is knowingly hiding records related to the Hotshot deaths in the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
According to the original January 2017 complaint in U.S. District Court, Schoeffler sent a FOIA request to the USDA’s Forest Service in June 2016, seeking all voice recordings and written transcripts related to the June 30, 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, as well as communications “to and from any and all air resources and any and all Incident Management Team and any and all operational and ground personnel.”
The complaint adds that Schoeffler “is certain that these air-to-ground records exist.”
The USDA later responded that it had turned over the information to a state investigator and that the information had already been made public.
But Schoeffler’s lawsuit claimed that the USDA’s answer was not responsive to his request.
In 2018, Chief U.S. Judge of the U.S. District Court G. Murray Snow ruled that Schoeffler had not exhausted administrative appeals, and the case went on to the 9th Circuit.
Schwartz maintained that the lower court erred, in part, because the USDA has told the courts that the department no longer has the original records.
“It’s not true, and there’s evidence in the record it’s not true,” Schwartz told the panel. “It’s undisputed that in August (2013), USDA FOIA was telling news organizations, ‘we have the recordings.’”
Although the USDA responded that the information had been made public in a Dropbox, Schwartz said, “There is no FOIA exemption that says ‘Oh, we gave it to somebody else, and they made them publicly available; we don’t have to produce what we have.’ That doesn’t exist.”
Judge Andrew Hurwitz pointed out, however, that FOIA requires that a “reasonably adequate search” be conducted. “The fact that you’ve discovered a document that wasn’t produced in the search isn’t evidence that they didn’t conduct a reasonably adequate one,” he told Schwartz.
USDA attorney Solomon also emphasized that point, telling the 9th Circuit panel, “The issue is not whether there might exist some other records possibly responsive to appellant’s FOIA request; the issue is whether the search for those records was adequate.”
Citing case law, Solomon said, “Failure to produce or identify a few isolated records — which is what we’re arguing about here — cannot by itself defeat the adequacy of a search.”
He added: “The fact that the document once existed does not mean it now exists. And the fact that an agency created a document doesn’t necessarily imply that the agency has retained the document.”
In Solomon’s conclusion, he asked the 9th Circuit panel to uphold Snow’s earlier ruling. “In this case, as in any FOIA case, the appellant is entitled to a reasonable search, not a perfect one,” he said. “And a reasonable search is what he got. And for that reason, the Department of Agriculture respectfully requests that this court uphold Chief Judge Snow’s rulings …”
Schoeffler’s attorney Schwartz concluded by asking the court to reverse the lower court’s ruling and remand the case back for bench trial.
“Whatever they have, we want it,” he told the panel. “There’s no declaration, no affidavit; there’s no evidence that they don’t have it today. Give it to us if you’ve got them.”
Judge Hurwitz concluded by saying the case had been submitted.”
Finally busted a move and subscribed to the Daily Courier for a few months only to find out that no opportunity to post comments.
And, of course, the attacks by the naysayers and those wanting desperately to bury the truth about what occurred and why on June 30, 2013, intensified.
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on February 19, 2020 at 1:26 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> This is a Daily Courier article titled:
>> Lawsuit seeks radio recordings from Yarnell Hill Fire
>> that killed 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots
>>
>> ( https://www.dcourier.com/news/2020/feb/13/lawsuit-seeks-radio-recordings-yarnell-hill-fire/ )
Here is a link to the same article already saved ( permanently ) in the ‘Internet Archive’ WAYBACK Machine.
Unlike the direct DCourier link above… you do NOT need a ‘subscription’ to the Daily Courier in
order to read the full article in the ‘Internet Archive’…
https://web.archive.org/web/20200214092108/https://www.dcourier.com/news/2020/feb/13/lawsuit-seeks-radio-recordings-yarnell-hill-fire/
Followup…
In the Daily Courier article above, they have reprinted one of deceased GM Hotshot Christopher Mackenzie’s iPhone 4S photos and the Daily Courier staff put the following caption on the photo…
———————————————————————————–
The Granite Mountain Hotshots watch the Yarnell Hill Fire from a burned-out area on June 30, 2013, just hours before the wildfire blocked their escape through a valley and overran their position, killing them. (Hotshot Christopher MacKenzie/Courtesy of his family)
————————————————————————————
That photo caption is of course, WRONG.
That is Christopher Mackenzie’s iPhone 4S image with filename IMG_2736.jpg.
It was taken at exactly 3:51:58 PM on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
If you accept the original SAIR estimate of 4:42 PM as the “Time of Death” for the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, then at the time Christopher Mackenzie took his IMG_2736.jpg photo they only had 50 minutes left before they would all burn to death.
50 minutes.
LESS than ONE hour.
Not “hours”.
Certain RTS that the state courts are part of the cover up–else they would want all FOIA information pertinent to the fire and any study made to be public information considering these are tax funded studies. The Judges in the State of Arizona are just as crooked as the people hiding the truth. Sad when you can not even count on a judicial system to be just.
Thank you for fighting the good fight on obtaining the certain to exist AFUE recordings. I predict 2 things at this time…make that 3:
1. The full audio recordings exist and always have
2. The data contains key components of the puzzle
3. They know it and it’s the reason they don’t want it public
Woodsman
That was NOT the first time an AFUE ( Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness ) team has arrived at an active Wildfire to “do their thing”.
The AFUE study itself had been going on for quite some time… after a Judge had ORDERED the USFS to conduct the study ( since they had never done one at all ).
It was ALREADY “Standard Procedure” and “Standard Protocol” ( as developed by the San Dimas Labortory people in charge of the AFUE study ) for an an AFUE team to fully record BOTH the “Air to Air radio channel traffic” AND the “Air To Ground radio channel traffic”.
The “Air To Ground” traffic was VERY important to have in order to fulfill the “Effectiveness” part of the protocol and see if the air drops were, in fact, achieving the ‘objectives’ as requested by ground personnel over the “Air to Ground” radio channel(s).
So if that Yarnell AFUE team was NOT recording all the “Air to Ground” radio traffic ( in addition to the “Air to Air” radio traffic )… then they were being negligent and not even fulfilling their own already-established AFUE protocol(s).
WTKTT,
Thanks for posting this. You mentioned a judge had ordered the USFS to conduct a study. Where did you find that?
Here’s a Wildfire Today link on the AFUE study. It mentions both a GAO report and an audit, however, I was unable to to access those websites.
” After seven years of the air tanker effectiveness study, what have we learned? ” Author Bill Gabbert Posted on April 8, 2019
( https://fireaviation.com/2019/04/08/after-seven-years-of-the-air-tanker-effectiveness-study-what-have-we-learned/ )
Woodsman, we know for a fact that USFS FMO Jonathon “Jack” Marvin has a copy of the June 30, 2013, YH Fire USFS AFUE study in a 3-ring binder that he seized from his HS Crew Asst. Foreman in 2015.
Ok. We’ve established the high probability of the AFUE study containing all aircraft related radio traffic audio recordings as general practice…otherwise it wouldn’t make any sense to study the use & effectiveness of aerial wildfire suppression systems. Both air-to-air and air-to-ground radio traffic are audio recorded in these studies. An AFUE module was present at the Yarnell Fire & engaged in data collection. To date the critical portion of the data has been excluded from bona fide public inquiry through the FOIA process. The USFS, who administer the aircraft study through their employees, claim that they gave there data to the forestry department of the state of Arizona implying this was their sole copy? Not even remotely likely. The circular search back and forth from federal entity to state in an attempt to hide the information from the public, which was generated by public funding btw, cannot contain one scintilla of a legitimate argument as to why this crucial data cannot be provided. This in no way can be considered a “reasonable fulfillment ” or good faith effort to be responsive to a specific public information request. If you lose this legal battle, there simply is no legitimate current actual law regarding the dissemination by request of specific public information. Its a crock.
If the court fails you in light of your physical evidence of the existence of the missing AFUE data, which more than likely will move the ball forward in finding the truth of all of the surr sounding circumstances in the deaths of GMIHC, you have an option for remedy:
File civil suit against individuals you have evidence of withholding the information you seek under their full commercial liability. But…you shouldn’t take internet advice from a powersaw aficionado like me. Follow the advice of a licensed attorney.
The preceding should be considered as a layman’s opinion written for informational purposes. Due diligence, hold harmless, caveat emptor etc, etc
Woodrow
Ps: what are you suspecting is contained in the air-to-ground frequency recordings that will help us solve this riddle?
Woodsman,
The SAIT-SAIR contained this statement from Bravo 33 John Burfiend, who insisted that it be contained therein. AND – I have posted this several times before AND in several AHFE papers.
“At 1637, ASM2 flies a drop path for a VLAT north of Yarnell west to east and apparently over DIVS A, turning northward to avoid high ground at the end of Yarnell. DIVS A, seeing the flight, calls and calmly says, “ [ASM2], Division Alpha, That’s exactly what we’re looking for. That’s where we want the retardant. ” ASM2 again circles the south end of the fire above Yarnell to line up a final flight path for a tanker drop.” (emphasis added)
The AFUE transcripts contained within the 3-ring binder augment this statement.
The HS Asst. Foreman, told me that Marsh was adamantly and repeatedly insisting on “air support on their egress about every five minutes.” The ASM was asking for their location and such to know where to go.
On your appeal argument, whomever prevails in this 9th Circuit round will ensure that the other side will appeal. And that next level in the judicial system is the US Supreme Court.
The civil route that you refer to was done on the Thirty-Mile Fire when, according to Dr. Ted Putnam, some of the family members sued the Fire Shelter manufacturers for their failure to protect the fire shelter evidence.
A separate lawsuit against the private shelter manufacturers by the Weavers and the other firefighters’ families over the shelters’ construction was settled in 2006 for a confidential amount.
( https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/dismissal-of-parents-lawsuit-marks-end-of-thirtymile-fire-litigation/ )
Some of the family members, according to Dr. Ted Putnam, chose the option to have the fire shelters examined and tested. However, lo and behold, they were foreclosed from that option by the typical USFS habit of cover-up and whitewash and arrogance.
According to Dr. Ted Putnam, some of the family members sued USFS employees and prevailed.
That’s always an option.
Woodsman, here is an April 7, 2017, email from AFUE Daniel Matthews to a bunch of USFS and non-USFS employees with the Subject: AFUE Video
“I have not reached out in a while to give you an update on the Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness Study (AFUE).
Our data from the last 2 years is being looked at by our analyst and additional data will be collected for the foreseeable future. There will most likely not be an aerial platform for the Region 3 fire season collecting data this year but ground modules will be responding to fires in the Region. We will continue to go through the formal process of gaining access to incidents by contacting the Forests, Districts, or Teams. A video link about the program is below. Feel free to forward this on to anyone you wish and please call if you have any questions or concerns.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-6raeZfMI
Thank you,
Dan Matthews
Region 3 Fire Module Lead
Forest Service
National Technology & Development Program
Unsurprisingly, that May 7, 2017, USFS AFUE YouTube video is no longer available even using the Wayback Machine. So then, even further USFS deceit and cover-ups.
( ” This video has been removed by the user. Sorry about that. ” It also had a kind of cartoon sad face
However, he was gracious enough to leave a link to this link dealing with the USFS AFUE study.
( https://www.fs.usda.gov/managing-land/fire/aviation/afue )
Wayback Machine image … maybe
( https://web.archive.org/web/20170504053211/https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-6raeZfMI&feature=youtu.be&a )
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
February 19, 2020 at 9:36 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> Woodsman, here is an April 7, 2017, email from
>> AFUE Daniel Matthews to a bunch of USFS
>> and non-USFS employees with the
>> Subject: AFUE Video
>>
>> “I have not reached out in a while to give you
>> an update on the Aerial Firefighting Use
>> and Effectiveness Study (AFUE).
>>
>> Our data from the last 2 years is being
>> looked at by our analyst and additional
>> data will be collected for the foreseeable future.
>> There will most likely not be an aerial platform
>> for the Region 3 fire season collecting data
>> this year but ground modules will be responding
>> to fires in the Region. We will continue to go
>> through the formal process of gaining access
>> to incidents by contacting the Forests, Districts,
>> or Teams. A video link about the program is below.
>> Feel free to forward this on to anyone you wish
>> and please call if you have any questions or concerns.
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7-6raeZfMI
>>
>> Thank you,
>> Dan Matthews
>> Region 3 Fire Module Lead
>> Forest Service
>> National Technology & Development Program
>>
>> Unsurprisingly, that May 7, 2017, USFS AFUE
>> YouTube video is no longer available even
>> using the Wayback Machine.
I’m not sure the AFUE video below is the one that went ‘missing’… but it might be.
It’s a ‘professionally produced’ 18 minute and 34 second video ABOUT the AFUE program.
Features actual AFUE module members talking about “What they do”, etc.
———————————————————-
YouTube Channel Name: National Wildfire Coordinating Group ( NWCG ) – 691 subscribers
YouTube Video Title: WFSTAR: AFUE Aerial Firefighting Use and Effectiveness
Published: Apr 11, 2018
Video Duration: 18 minutes and 34 seconds
2,371 views ( as of February 19, 2020 )
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g_TOnpIIDXk
———————————————————-
The video is basically ‘narrated’ by Rachael Hansen of the USFS National Technology and Development Program. She says ( at the start of the video ) that she is part of the ‘Region 5’ AFUE Module. She once worked for The Wolf Creek Hotshots and also for the Asheville IHC. She was hired in August of 2014 to work for the Region 5 AFUE module.
+1:44
The History Behind the ( AFUE ) Program
+2:33
We get another AFUE Module member on-camera.
This time it’s Sean Wildhaber, commenting on how AFUE got started.
He works on the Region 1 AFUE Module.
He spent 12 years on various Hotshot crews and joined AFUE program in 2015.
He says “The Forest Service wanted to look more at how we were using our aircraft and how effective we were being with the aircraft”.
NOTE: The origins of the AFUE study aren’t that simple… and you have to go back to Andy Stahl and the Forest Service Employees for Environmental Ethics ( FSEEE ) lawsuits from 2003 and 2008 which led to court orders about environmental impact studies and aircraft effectiveness studies… and then to OMB and GAO audits and whatnot. It’s a complicated ‘history’ that actually spans more than a decade.
Sounds to me like the AFUE study is a “make work” program for former hotshots with little or no intention for production of useful results. Nice work if you can get it…
Thanks for posting that jaw dropping video about the Twin Tower Ordeal. I had seen other videos about it but none as convincing as that. That flight 93 photo was absolutely a tell tale situation when not even an engine from that twin engine jet was there and no possible way that plane could have left nothing but a ten foot grove in the ground without leaving some of the fuselage, wings, bodies and engines. It was no wonder the press was kept away–and the fake call to Mom giving the last name. Then that stewardess had no stressed voice and just matter of factly expressing the thing about being hi jacked.
It is a video that as was said should be issued to every American Citizen. But I knew that at the time Bush in that classroom of kids had been told what was done and had a reaction that told me he already knew what was going to happen, he just wanted to know the fact that it had. There was no urgency to him to jump up immediately and leave. Yet in the video of him in what you posted you can see now he realizes what he and his cronies have done–they have murdered 3000 people to start his war.
The other Thing, I had to believe Osama Bin Lauden’s statement that he had nothing to do with the Twin Towers that someone had done it for personal reasons. I had not gone through all the underhanded CIA doings you posted, I knew of many of them.
Bush was not the only President to create a false flag event. Franklin Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor so that the American People would get incensed enough to enter WW2. Hitler I believe would have been beaten by the Russians, but Britain would have gone down before Hitler had taken on the Russians.
Roosevelt, like Bush used patsies and it is proven now that FOIA reports could be had that Roosevelt put the finger on his generals that were actually indicted for something they had no part of. They were acquitted.
The worse of it is that when you have a dishonest and untrustworthy bunch running the government it trickles down and seems to have infected much of the whole organization. Their idea that truth is relative, people in law enforcement can lie yet they are supposed to be prime examples of truth, and politicians are owned by Corporations and people are controlled by a box in the living room, then we are in deep shit without a paddle.
But I do see the very young concerned–they in their innocence want things to be right for their generation and are bravely coming out to try to make changes. They are not easily fooled and the internet has helped since the knowledge and facts can be found, studied and weighed.
How sad that people in such high places can be so rotten. Yet the facts are there–and I had seen the explosions below the actual free fall of the twin towers before but this video makes them even more obvious as they shoot out the side of the buildings. The Firemen were skirted and yet they all talked about the succession of the explosions coming down the building.
I understood that 343 Firemen attempting to save lives were sacrificed in over 2000 killed in the most horrifying way. People that involve in these things are without conscious–the lizard reptilian blood lines that have since thousands of years with the consciousness of a rattle snake.
But what can you say–these people own the Armies, the Police Forces, the Government and use fear as their methods of control. They thrive off the fear of the people they control–and he who does not fear will be ridiculed, laughed at, and demeaned if he does not follow the lie.
In a way it is quite a clown show–watching two billionaires fight it out for the power seat of the Presidency. One has already spent more than half a billion to get that position. Yet there are forces much greater than even they that move things to their advantage and liking.
With this you can imagine that there will be some events this world that are devious plans to cause this desired New World Order. These people have had no problem killing thousands and then putting more thousands and even millions to death with their intent to protect their oil sources. And I just do not see the compassion for the masses that they believe are ruining their earth.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Report offers first look at events that led to Okanogan firefighter’s death. By Reilly Kneedler. World staff writer Feb 12, 2020
“The Spring Coulee Fire was estimated to be the size of a basketball court when it was first reported at 3:59 p.m. on Sept. 1, 2019.
“Seven minutes later it was estimated to be the size of a football field. Three minutes after that evacuations were issued, flames were around 10 feet high and the fire had burned 5 to 10 acres.
“Seventeen minutes later, at 4:26 p.m., a call came over the radio that a firefighter was “down at the head of the fire.”
“The report, called a facilitated learning analysis , was conducted to determine what lessons could be learned from the incident.
Read the full report here. The link is here in the article
It provides the first detailed account of how Johnson was “overtaken by fire.” He died of his injuries just over a month after the fire.
The report analyzed six core categories: communications, training, medical pre-positioning and medical evacuation coordination, vehicles, access, and personal protective equipment.
NOTICE THAT HUMAN FACTORS IS CLEARLY MISSING FROM THIS LIST No blame, no fault!
( https://www.wenatcheeworld.com/news/local/report-offers-first-look-at-events-that-led-to-okanogan/article_afe010e4-4d1e-11ea-8755-036df539a72c.html )
Spring Coulee Fire – September 1, 2019 – Facilitated Learning Analysis
“ Change is the end result of all true learning. ” ~Leo Buscaglia
FLAs and learning Reviews are definitely NOT true learning!
RTS–Thanks for posting that jaw dropping video about the Twin Tower Ordeal. I had seen other videos about it but none as convincing as that. That flight 93 photo was absolutely a tell tale situation when not even an engine from that twin engine jet was there and no possible way that plane could have left nothing but a ten foot grove in the ground without leaving some of the fuselage, wings, bodies and engines. It was no wonder the press was kept away–and the fake call to Mom giving the last name. Then that stewardess had no stressed voice and just matter of factly expressing the thing about being hi jacked.
It is a video that as was said should be issued to every American Citizen. But I knew that at the time Bush in that classroom of kids had been told what was done and had a reaction that told me he already knew what was going to happen, he just wanted to know the fact that it had. There was no urgency to him to jump up immediately and leave. Yet in the video of him in what you posted you can see now he realizes what he and his cronies have done–they have murdered 3000 people to start his war.
The other Thing, I had to believe Osama Bin Lauden’s statement that he had nothing to do with the Twin Towers that someone had done it for personal reasons. I had not gone through all the underhanded CIA doings you posted, I knew of many of them.
Bush was not the only President to create a false flag event. Franklin Roosevelt allowed Pearl Harbor so that the American People would get incensed enough to enter WW2. Hitler I believe would have been beaten by the Russians, but Britain would have gone down before Hitler had taken on the Russians.
Roosevelt, like Bush used patsies and it is proven now that FOIA reports could be had that Roosevelt put the finger on his generals that were actually indicted for something they had no part of. They were acquitted.
The worse of it is that when you have a dishonest and untrustworthy bunch running the government it trickles down and seems to have infected much of the whole organization. Their idea that truth is relative, people in law enforcement can lie yet they are supposed to be prime examples of truth, and politicians are owned by Corporations and people are controlled by a box in the living room, then we are in deep shit without a paddle.
But I do see the very young concerned–they in their innocence want things to be right for their generation and are bravely coming out to try to make changes. They are not easily fooled and the internet has helped since the knowledge and facts can be found, studied and weighed.
How sad that people in such high places can be so rotten. Yet the facts are there–and I had seen the explosions below the actual free fall of the twin towers before but this video makes them even more obvious as they shoot out the side of the buildings. The Firemen were skirted and yet they all talked about the succession of the explosions coming down the building.
I understood that 343 Firemen attempting to save lives were sacrificed in over 2000 killed in the most horrifying way. People that involve in these things are without conscious–the lizard reptilian blood lines that have since thousands of years with the consciousness of a rattle snake.
But what can you say–these people own the Armies, the Police Forces, the Government and use fear as their methods of control. They thrive off the fear of the people they control–and he who does not fear will be ridiculed, laughed at, and demeaned if he does not follow the lie.
In a way it is quite a clown show–watching two billionaires fight it out for the power seat of the Presidency. One has already spent more than half a billion to get that position. Yet there are forces much greater than even they that move things to their advantage and liking.
With this you can imagine that there will be some events this world that are devious plans to cause this desired New World Order. These people have had no problem killing thousands and then putting more thousands and even millions to death with their intent to protect their oil sources. And I just do not see the compassion for the masses that they believe are ruining their earth.
Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
RTS I forgot to thank you for the Ghengis Khan Hot Shot Shirt. “Cut Line or Die” and the logo skull with wild land fire fighter helmet and cross swords below. Lots of truth and meaning in the logo and I can wear it with appreciation. There had to be many crew men wearing that with pride. I can understand the fire in the back ground –what does the S signify?
Certainly for those that have never seen the Logo it tells a story of the life of the wild land fire fighter. A sometimes dangerous and tedious work involving the courage of a warrior. A job for only a few good men/women ready and willing to handle a challenge and do a service only a few could do.
I do believe the public in general, and I know the politicos involved have little understanding of how underpaid and how dangerous the job is for the minimal pay and costs to health involved.
Joy had reminded me of hiking my son Jaime through the retardant zones to show him the area where the men had hiked and passed away–tells me that more are sick and even the younger people around Yarnell.
Whatever was in those secret ingredients dispersed on Yarnell must have been the equivalent of rat poison. Briomine, an ingredient that is a well known rat poison is also a well used and known ingredient for fire retardants. But who would know with up to 15% of fire retardant as secret ingredients under trade secret laws. Whatever was in those retardants dispersed in two successive wild land fires at Yarnell must have had and escalating effect on the already toxic phosphates and ammonium compounds. Too many coincidences are not a coincidence according to any investigator’s guidebook.
If anything was learned at Yarnell beside the obvious whitewash about the deaths of the GMHS crew, it is that the retardant is extremly poisonous—not only to aquatic live, but the humans that breath its dust and fumes in as well. Obviously I can not be absolutely certain my son’s cancer is absolutely connected to the wild land fire retardant at Yarnell, but he has now fallen ill after hikes I took with him through the retardant zones of the Yarnell wild fire.
Yet Joy tells me that there are now younger individuals coming down with illness at Yarnell in the cancer department, lung issues and heart disease.
Whew, talk about the Evil Witche’s brew–she need nothing more than a cup of retardant added to her cauldron to really preform the black magic of death.
China, US, Great Britian, don’t really need the biological war viruses –just spread some retardant about–save the money spent on virus to find cures for the ones they already either distribute or as the GMHS story is officially told–tragic accidents that cause deaths.
There is some positive news-something Woodsman and others would like to hear from Sonny. I am prone to see the bad bit never neglect the good. We need to look at the problems and then the solutions. But if a problem is not recognized or admitted to, then there will never be a solution. The Yarnell killing of the GMHS was not recognized that way. It was a killing and not an accident.
The deaths of the many Yarnell residents way beyond what should be since the Retardant Dumps of 2013 and 2015 was a killing. Elder residents, just as the coronavirus is now doing, were killed in a rate at about 7 times what should have been for the death statistics in the 7 years beyond the Retardant dispersals upon and about Yarnell in excessive amounts.
Now the good news. Joy has completed her investigation training course and received a nicely embossed proof. That means she is advancing toward better investigator abilities–maybe better said, more access to under wraps information.
Congratulations Joy–hard earned I know.
Also I have been contacted by individuals that are working toward a significant documentation that will come forward with the true story about Yarnell. Much of that material will come from significant sources–especially the men that have had long time experience in wild land fire fighting. One only needs to remove the bushel basket over the light of truth–that has been ongoing and may be seen sooner than later.
Many people come to this site to get facts about the Yarnell incident that would kill 19 of America’s finest. It is always the small media that are not hooked to Corporate interests that make the difference in finding out the facts and truth of matters. I need not point out that the man that uncovered the wrong doing of the CIA black ops involving the Iran-Contra affair was a journalist much like John Daugherty. The main media denied the allegations and downplayed CIA involvement and the fact that a President Reagan, who claimed such strict enforcement against drugs. was also well aware that the CIA black operatives were allowing and escorting tons of drugs into this country–with of course excuse. Isn’t this a great country–lock up the druggies and claim you hate drug importation, yet are doing it while saying it is for patriotic purposes. Anytime you hear the word patriot attached to something, be skeptical.
So my son hiked with me though the retardant–but he is a smoker as well. My Dad quit smoking at 45–he said the smoking would not kill you, it was the poisons they were spraying on the tobacco plants to kill the bugs. What kills lower forms of animals can not be good for higher forms including Humans. And do not forget the CIA spraying of competing marijuana fields with the deadly weed killer. The Mexicans collected those dead and poisoned plants and sold them anyway. Lots of Americans got sick from that.
I do see that a few of the politicians are concerned about ocean life destruction and dead zones as well as other environmental issues. I have not heard them say the excessive use of retardant and phosphates are the problem–so who knows what band aide will be applied to the problem once these people get in office. If it is anything like others such as Reagan claiming to stop government excess and instead adds a two trillion dollar deficit, or Bush saying they have nukes in Iraq but not saying we are protecting our oil source and his oil stocks, then I would not have much hopes.
But there are only two choices–they are going to have to have big money either way. And with one Billionaire against another–throw a dart–neither will represent the common man. It would be nice to see the lady win since she seems closer to the ground that those other two money men yet this Corporate government will have its say in the final analysis. And do not worry, the money they spend is a roll of dice that if they win the 50-50 odds, that money spent will be multiplied in their purses several times over.
I do believe that eventually the larger media will have to take hold of the GMHS story and come clean on what happened to kill the GMHS crew. If improvements made, after truth is heard, then saving even one life from better practices of safe procedures will save a world and a mass of grief and misery.
Congratulations to Joy on passing her Investigative Training course.
She has worked very hard to achieve this as well as persisting in filing FOIAs which have been essential in revealing truths about the Yarnell Hill fire.
Thank you for your continued hard work in putting together the pieces of this Yarnell Hill fire puzzle!
Diane Lomas
Thank you Diane.
I think anyone who had first hand folks reach you Diane
You would do the same
Some are so traumatized by this weeks National Staff Ride where it had been reported to a loved one that no family would be present just Superintendents then you see EMF showing the world how healing it was for her to be with the superintendents…I wonder if she knew other loved ones were denied and lied to…
That hurt me because I know certain ones were lied to..
That was not a place for just certain family could be present while directly lied to that one actually was and when I was notified it was like … ???
I don’t comprehend WHY.
All I do know the more they exclude the more stories I INCLUDE.
I got a lead on the AFUE this week so maybe things are looking up.
Good to hear that Diane is still around–one person I would venture to say is very strict to the straight and narrow. Too bad many others are timid to ask the questions that put light to truth. So many are jaded to allowing media presentations and “authority” presentations to be absorbed without the least bit of question to veracity.
This morning I awoke late with a metallic taste in my mouth. I went outside and the taste got worse and was equal to the ugliness of the sky I was seeing.
I had to go back in and get my camera–a second one–this time a cheaper but used version of Canon off ebay. This one is an SXs20hs and with 40x optical works fine for the $50 price I paid. Wal Mart sells them for $200–the new Nikon $500 pix900 went back to the owner and I hope he sends it back to China–it was infected with carnovirus.
This good used Cannon has been photographing daily the streaked skys and the jets dispersing their chemicals. Looking at the sky in all directions they must have worked the entire night spraying their concoctions. In some directions the mountains are viewed through a haze. Toward Las Cruces and El Paso, it is especially hazy.
Not a thing of braggadocio–a thing of experience. If I had been brought up in the city I could understand better that life and the survival techniques of dealing with it. But since early child hood I was living a life that kept the family isolated from city life but not isolated from nature.
We did not have but a transitor radio and that Dad kept to use in the afternoon after his hard days work in his rat holes (mine shafts and tunnels). He conserved batteries–they were not cheap on his income and he needed to conserve those batteries to get the news and a bit of country music.
Therefore I became pretty adept at watching the skys to read the clouds and even the moon at night. If it had a circle about it you could predict that rain was approaching in about three days. So I knew I was aware of Cirrus clouds, Cumulus and so on and what the skys could tell us.
That was back in the 50’s–yet today when I look at these clouds I know they are not real but man made from jet dispersion. I photographed all directions and almost overhead is a small circle of blue sky with obvious jet trails through it. That will soon be closed for a totally oblique sky.
These dispersions of particulates do cause rain. They may even contain silver iodide with the other chemicals–always aluminum particulate, strontium and barium. Hopefully the government is not including virus–they promised not to do that anymore after several documented tests were exposed some years back.
We do have one of the Most secret bases right over the hill from me, the White Sands Missile Range with Holloman Air Force within its boundaries some 7 miles west of Alamogordo and very near the White Sands National Monument.
Fort Bliss, where I took my basic training still has the barracks I had slept in alongside 300 other soldiers for two weeks of basic training back in 1967. They seem unused since new ones have been erected in the area. Fort Bliss is actually a southern extension of the White Sands Missile Range, To see the modern buildings in that area on Military Reservation, you think you are looking at the Pentagon if they had chosen the pentagram shape. Very modern to the eye–but you better be military to go visit.
Yes I believe they would spray hell out of the sky. The Military has its reason. I do not think it is necessarily nefarious–but who is Commander in Chief? Is he like so many others in power? Reagan went in office saying he would stop excessive spending and fix the debt. His two trillion dollar debt increase was the largest ever.
He was privy to the CIA drug dealing and importation of drugs yet out of his mouth came his statements of being hard on drug dealers. Ollie North could challenge Reagan for being a good Hollywood actor. He could fool his grandmother with his BS and Mike Dudley would have been great in that organization. I need not mention the Bush Dynasty shenanigans–most of you know them.
It is left to a few good citizens to ferret out the facts–the Corporation bought media will feed you Corporation propaganda–they are owned by Corporate entities–thanks to Nixon, Obama, and even Regan on that one. Their retirees will and have said publicly–we were no more than puppets–we could not address issues and truths that we knew were vital to public–instead we parroted the Corporate desires–just as so many parrot the “Officially” desired presentation of the deaths of 19 Granite Mountain Hot Shots at Yarnell, June 30, 2013.
My ideas but I see the balance of power being taken from the people and handed to government by and for Corporate interests. Do you believe of only two possible choices that either billionaire will represent the people. I just can not swallow that pill.
Friends on IM:
Here is some good advice that may well save your life> That corona virus escaped or was released from a Type 4 biological facility. That is where the most dangerous lethal type air bornvirus are deveoped and played with. We have 16 such facilities –China has only one where that Corona Virus originated.
The virus has spread already similar to the way the Spanish flu did during WW1. My Dad helped stacked dead soldier bodies from that flu on his way over on the ship to the front during that war. This new Corona strain may well be the killer that will make a major population reduction, especially among the elderly and those compromised in the immune system.
When I visited my son there was already case in Tempe, but most of you know of plenty of cases around the world–Japan, Indonesia, Australia, etc. I believe this one can be defeated with just a surgical mask when you are in a hospital or large crowd.
For your information there are plenty of Level 3 experimental labs–mostly at the Universities. They are not necessarily guarded as Level 4 would be but also contain potentially lethal virus experiments. Britain has 9 of these level 4 labs–something for a small country. Prince Paul better watch out, his dream of coming back as a virus might be in one of his own labs. If you want the whole list of where they are in the US and other places, Wikipedia has them
We are a war like people on this planet–even devising methods to take people out by lethal diseases. What alien with any good morals would want to contaminate himself by showing up on the White House Lawn–well he would get lead poison there–the lethal kind–one I have experienced and one you do not want to experience–nor even the deadly virus the Chinese have invented.
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charlie says
February 12, 2020 at 1:16 am
China has 1.46 billion people. India has 1.35 billion people. The US has .31 Billion people. You can see that we are quite small in population to these giants in human resources. If either China or India were to loose a population equal to our country they would still have over a billion people to carry on with. The Arabs have above .4 billion–so only have the states outnumbered by 100 thousand or so. Pakistan with its nukes is also famous for housing Osama Ben Lauden. North Korea has only a little over 22 million people–Mexico City has more than Korea.
But a sneak nuclear attack from any one of these small countries would leave this country so vulnerable. The idea that the citizens should be disarmed in this country is total ignorance of the world situation. Instead, every American Citizen, especially those trained in military action should be required to be armed. That may someday be the only hope for a last ditch effort to save the Country and its people.
This Bush, etc. idea of a New World Order is based upon the hopes that a few World Bankers, Corporate Trillionaires and Oil Magnates will be able to control the world populations. Common sense should tell you that any attempt to remove the sovereignty of this country will result in reducing it to third world status and perhaps even a slaughter of a large group of its citizens by removal of protection. We have not made ourselves popular among the world nations–and quite a number of them would just as soon see our demise.
So do not think this world will come to a peace loving situation by some New World Order crap. That is only made up so the dynasties that already exist can maintain their controls. It is not for the good of the sovereignty of our country and the common folk within its borders.
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So sorry Sonny
Your son facing this
Hurts me
Very hard to focus to class with minimal sleep
I think Gary can help with this area Sonny with his clout and influential ways
I had to do renal crap ages ago and may again
I think somewhere on IM is such health report my longest without peeing
I did all that reporting over time because Sonny we are the guinea pigs to so later they can case study us
Yes, Joy thanks. I just got word they will not remove the prostrate since the cancer is already spread to his lymph nodes. He will do kidney dialysis on a schedule and take medicines but they say it is an aggressive cancer and medicine seems to be the present idea for a cure? Not good–the chemical world is manifesting itself in ugly ways.
Sonny, I am so sorry to hear about your son Jaime. It gives us even more incentive to pursue the insidious effects of aerial retardant.
I’m glad to hear you enjoyed your Genghis Khan T-shirt which only Hot Shots are allowed to wear. As I told you many times, you would have made a good one. Regarding the letter “S” you mentioned, I’ll have to wait until I take a look at one again in my drawer.
RTS–I appreciate your concern–know you to be a strong God fearing man. Your prayers and any you are associated with are appreciated.
Jaime will not be operated on to remove the prostate. The cancer was too aggressive and moved to his lymph glands so the Doctor said removal of the prostrate would be of no help.
I have heard of group prayer, direction of thought toward good results, etc. ‘of having even reversed terminal cancers that in in the final stages.
My other son, Mark RN, says he likely will have only 8 months to a year at this stage. But I am one of the survivors of some pretty damn nasty events and believe he has hope.
There are so many tragedies–these types can be avoided much as the loss of the 19 GMHS should have been. However chemical contamination of people and the environment is an issue that has been hidden, even with statistics proving the damage the retardant chemicals and others are doing.
Although I know that the public is poorly informed, I do see some of the Presidential candidates addressing the issues. They have the information, yet the Corporate Giants have the purse strings. Still there may be hope that much will change in this good land of American people. But those changes will likely only appear once the masses get the facts and protest.
The new warfare which is not new at all is operations and perpetrators unknown, and likely indeterminable. Remember our troops once gave blankets to the Indians loaded with small pox to kill off as many as possible in that manner.
Now the US has 16 type 4 disease experimental centers and many patents on such things as Ebola, etc. Our country of course goes overboard–we have enough nuclear reserves to kill every thing on earth at least 30 times over–likely more even than that.
The need for 16 disease experimental centers must also include the use of chemicals as well. If you disperse chemicals and virus so that people are sickened and not immediately killed it is hard to put a finger on any government project. Would the government here experiment on its own people? You hope that is unlikely but by 2050 half of all jobs will be automated. There is going to be an excess of people and fewer will be needed for productive jobs.
I wonder what is on the minds of the billionaires like Ted Turner, Prince Philip, etc that make their billions off the producers and look at the population as too many eaters. That is not to mention that the Georgia stone –written in so many languages and erected signifies that the earth must revert to a population of 500 million.
The 160 elite scientists that met in Cairo Egypt mostly came to a consensus that 800 million needed to be the figure by 2030. What are these heads of nations doing to meet that figure–or at least those that have the puppet strings that believe this figure?
There is some amazing technology–well how can there not be considering that something like 9 trillion over the past decade was used on mostly black opt and untraceable money toward Military Secret advancements in technology–a large portion toward war making for certain, but includes the technical advances that would allow free energy, long life and so forth.
We do see some pretty nice guys in the government–at least they leave that impression. But what of those with the attitude of Prince Phillip who wants to come back as a virus to take away billions? Even the middle class means little to a fellow like that. And he is government–in England but recognized and liked in that billionaire circle.
Keep a few surgical masks around–but I am not sure how much they will help. These fellows are very clever and those dispersions can happen in the darkest of nights by planes that are hardly detectable even by radar.
It is very possible, at least in my mind that some are ready to take nefarious actions. I see the terrible obstacles that RTS, Joy, JD and others have to get to the truth. And by the emails presented on FOIA, these actions are deliberate. How far will people in their positions and those much higher who condone these actions go?
Flip a coin if someone speaks from those high offices–heads they are likely attempting to be honest, tails, who knows but it smells bad there.
If you have a way to see a documentary about a doctor and his cure for cancer it is somewhat of an eyeopener as to who controls the pharmacy industry and how this system is totally money centered. It is not exactly government by the people–in fact it is government by the big money people that own corporations. The documentary is under cancer cure crisis and titled Burzynski:Cancer Cure Cover Up. I found it on the free movies that Tubi puts out under Documentaries.
jaime retardant
Inbox
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Tex Gilligan
Tue, Feb 11, 8:36 PM (19 hours ago)
to me
Joy had reminded me of hiking my son Jaime through the retardant zones to show him the area where the men had hiked and passed away–tells me that more are sick and even the younger people around Yarnell.
Whatever was in those secret ingredients dispersed on Yarnell must have been the equivalent of rat poison. Briomine, an ingredient that is a well known rat poison is also a well used and known ingredient for fire retardants. But who would know with up to 15% of fire retardant as secret ingredients under trade secret laws. Whatever was in those retardants dispersed in two successive wild land fires at Yarnell must have had and escalating effect on the already toxic phosphates and ammonium compounds. Too many coincidences are not a coincidence according to any investigator’s guidebook.
If anything was learned at Yarnell beside the obvious whitewash about the deaths of the GMHS crew, it is that the retardant is extremly poisonous—not only to aquatic live, but the humans that breath its dust and fumes in as well. Obviously I can not be absolutely certain my son’s cancer is absolutely connected to the wild land fire retardant at Yarnell, but he has now fallen ill after hikes I took with him through the retardant zones of the Yarnell wild fire.
Yet Joy tells me that there are now younger individuals coming down with illness at Yarnell in the cancer department, lung issues and heart disease.
Whew, talk about the Evil Witche’s brew–she need nothing more than a cup of retardant added to her cauldron to really preform the black magic of death.
China, US, Great Britian, don’t really need the biological war viruses –just spread some retardant about–save the money spent on virus to find cures for the ones they already either distribute or as the GMHS story is officially told–tragic accidents that cause deaths.
Yes, Sonny, I am very sorry to hear that your son has cancer. In addition, I am confused as to why Joy thinks I have any clout or influential ways since all of the clout, influential ways and about $2.70 will buy a cup of coffee since that is about what the average cup of costs. It will however…take the all of the clout and influence I have and substantially more to get a cup of coffee at Starbucks…probably?
But since I don’t like the bitter taste of coffee or the fact that it upsets my stomach, I will admit that I don’t really know how much coffee costs and I had to research the figure I did quote using the Goggle machine.
Obviously…I am still traumatized by RTS calling me a liar about the whole B-17 misunderstanding. I was kinda proud of myself that I got half of it right…since there was a “B” in both the name of the converted military bomber (B-17) I quoted in my anecdote and the actual converted military bomber (B-26) that crashed on the Battlement Creek Fire. And I think the one I watched crash was a Douglas B-26 Invader and not a Martin B-26 Marauder?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Douglas_A-26_Invader
Say…maybe slurry is why I have a brain tumor? I did read on the Google machine that it’s more common for women to have brain tumors and it is relatively rare for a man to have one. Although armed with that anecdotal evidence alone, I would hate to go up against OWCP.
Although this could yet be another example of my vanity and arrogance because I might not be the same “Gary” Joy is referring to that has clout or influential ways after all? In which case…my bad.
And now that I am posting this…I will go ahead and clean up from an earlier discussion (argument) that Joy and I had. And in accordance and keeping with my, “How To Deal With Joy Protocols”, I am going to keep it very short and to the point.
“Joy…I believe that Darrell Willis and Mike Dudley (etc) won because Willis is apparently leading all of the hotshot crew bosses (or a bunch of them) in the nation on a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride white he explains what went wrong and you and I aren’t.”
Although I do have some exciting news! I have come up with a name for the condition that affected Gordon King, Tony Czak, and Eric Marsh that caused all of them to kill at least some of their crew (Marsh got them all except for one). All three of these men suffered from the, “Black Beret Syndrome.”
I have almost an entire paragraph floating around inside my head right now that would explain my previous comment about the Black Beret Syndrome in detail But will I ever get it from there to paper…who knows? But I did think it is very important to get that out there just in case there is another hotshot crew boss out there somewhere right now walking around with Black Beret Syndrome and that we have a name to call it to make it easier to both identify and explain.
I mean…because all anecdotal evidence points to the conclusion that it was widely known that the three hotshot crew bosses who killed some of their crews in burn overs did have Black Beret Syndrome. But not enough people said something. So, if you see something…say something. Although according to RTS…a lot of people did say something about Marsh’s Black Beret Syndrome while clearly and correctly identifying the signs and symptoms that he suffered from it, but Darrell Willis was to fucking stupid to listen.
And now…Willis is leading the hotshot crew bosses of the nation on a Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride white he explains what went wrong. I wonder just how effective that will be at preventing the fourth hotshot burn over?
Now see…I think that was a judicious use of a F Bomb that furthered my narrative and made it both more colorful and explanatory without the gratuitous and widespread dropping of F. Bombs? But then again…what the fuck do I know?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=efZQhYu1E5s
Oh…and one more thing. Coconino National Forest Fire Control Officer (FCO) Bill Buck was the first to my knowledge to very accurately and succinctly identify the primary and most easily identifiable Black Beret Syndrome a long time ago.
In fact…the primary symptom of Black Beret Syndrome was identified so long ago, if it had not covered up a second time by Shawna Legarza, maybe the Yarnell Hill Fire catastrophic disaster could have been prevented? Kind of like a majority report from the movie, “The Minority Report” with Tom Cruise.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lG7DGMgfOb8
Of course this occurred when FCO Buck asked a member of the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster SAIT, Bob Mutch, who helped write the SAIR, to come into his office and closed the door. FCO Buck described the Black Beret Syndrome Tony Czak displayed to Mutch as, “a reckless spirit.”
BOOM 💥 goes the dynamite 🧨! BUCK NAILED IT!
I guess I can explain my Black Beret Syndrome Theory a little bit though, just in case not all of our readers can follow that through line (there’s that new word I learned to describe related data points in an investigation).in this case, I know I can’t.
At the time of the El Cariso Hotshot burn over on the Loop Fire of 1966 that killed 12 of them and severely burned several more, there was only one hotshot crew in the nation who was officially authorized to wear Black Berts in recognition and approval of their reckless spirit under the leadership of Gordon King.
Gordon King agreed with fire team overhead to lead his crew to construct hardline into a steep and narrow canyon ABOVE the Loop Fire. Several other hotshot crews who were also on the Loop Fire refused to carry out that assignment with their crews because it was to dangerous.
But…none if them were authorized to wear berets like the El Cariso Hotshots were which are status symbols used throughout most, if not all of the militaries in the world to signify those who wear them are elite forces. Of corse the beret most of us are familiar with because of the Vietnam War and John Wayne, are the Green Berets worn by our Special Forces. The most common beret worn by elite military units is the universal symbol for paratroopers and that is the maroon beret.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2xhfSWEbbhM
The British call the maroon beret their paratroopers wear red, because you know…they are British and we love them, one and all. At the time of the Loop Fire, the black beret was worn by our storied and elite 75th Ranger Regiment who are known simply as…Army Rangers.
This is getting down into the weeds, but some years ago, the Army Rangers switched from wearing black berets to brown ones because Army High Command (I think is was General Eric Shinseki, but don’t quote me on that) changed the rules to allow all soldiers to wear black berets so that everybody could feel special.
Oh…and one more thing. I want to take what I wrote about Willis back. I know I have written a version of this same thought before, but Willis didn’t get to be the Chief (of the entire Department, not just the Wildlands Division) of a fire department and then keep that job for 15 years without not only being very smart, but very clever, not to mention very politically savvy.
Willis knew exactly who he had with Marsh. Willis knew that Marsh had nowhere else to go and no way to get there. Willis knew Marsh would do, say and sign anything he was told to.
Except for very near the end…there was some serious things going on between the two of them at that time. Marsh had started riding his mountain bike hard right up to the edge of the cliff and then sliding it to a stop…more or less, most of the time.
He likes identified as a SME now as days Gary with no CONNECTION to the PFD
I know that, but thank you. And I think what you meant to write is that Willis doesn’t have an official CONNECTION to PFD. But he has a lifetime of connections to the entire Prescott area since he was the Chief of the Prescott Fire Department for15 years.
They gave him a Golden Parachute job making $120,000 as a double dipper as the Prescott Fire Department Division Chief after he retired from the PFD as Chief of the entire Department. Everywhere he goes…people refer to him as “Chief.”
Prescott is a very small and historically inbred town where success is based on personal relationships. It sounds to me like you are seriously underestimating Chief Willis, which is a mistake I would never make.
Oh…and one more thing. In general, you have a little bit of information about the ability to sue individuals who work for, or used to work for a government that has Sovereign Immunity.
But you lack the nuance, particulars, details, context and most important, the experience to be able to apply your very limited knowledge to the real world.
And not only do I lack the commitment to share what I know with you, I know from past experience that you wouldn’t be receptive to any attempts to help you or change your preconceived ideas and notions so I would be wasting the limited time both of us have on this earth.
But as always…I admire your pluck, enthusiasm, indomitable spirit and innocent naïveté. But you go girl, I will back you up…from wayyyyy back.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ks072waMayk
And I am now in violation of my own, “How To Deal With Joy Protocol”, But if people could get immunity from what?
If somebody is waiting to get immunity from prosecution, they have now got it since the statute of limitations has now run out for both civil lawsuits and criminal charges.
Unless for some reason I can’t fathom there has been an ongoing crime? But since I can’t fathom what the original crime might have even been, it’s impossible for me to imagine an on going crime.
Gary,
If many of these people could get immunity – I think you will get to see even more. I know retired Bravo 33 is feeling it and Abel and True – I can feel it Gary. I think they know I know and as well I am selectively giving the proper tools to people so yeah – The SAIT SAIR folks I have empathy for you all – it was a huge scope and I am never about LOOK AT ME ….yet your entire team owe Tex and I and the Blue Ridge and Air Folks and Abel and even toss in Musser – you owe us a formal written apology when this is all done and out. The more I am learning about Willis behind the scenes he has lost that cheerleader grace with me.
I think all these investigators even the shadow ones go to what they are trained by as I am learning this week – the touhy – yet in history there has been law cases where one can sue not the Government – the Investigator but the person so there could be a time a civilian can sue for hypothetical example say sue Mike D. the man not the person tied to a professional position based on physical evidence piling in – and how it was obtained
Yeah, anyone stringed to the core of this person will be attached – If you are training to be an investigator or are one – please note there is law cases where one can do as I state above.
Now for you Gary- I am studying for my final exam and I pumped to get out in the field tomorrow and do my first plot plan to see how I do on the ground … I got a kick ass group yet you should not be confused – you have the clout and you will be the one to pull this out to its final phase — did you think it was RTS?
Funny. RTS never calls people liars but he will always lay claim people can have behaviors of lying but I do not ever see him calling you or anyone a liar but he can get you rawled up – I get ya …
Night Gary –
Keep the faith.
Good night and good luck tomorrow. And I think RTS was calling me a liar, but if I got that wrong…my bad and I sincerely apologize for being a Richard Cranium.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482334
You got it wrong
RTS seems to naturally correct another … then we the people feel as if he is calling us liars
He has this unique FATHER correction way both you and I never got to experience in our lives because we did not have such to our lives so we have different mechanisms and we perceive RTS incorrectly
I do it too
There is no mention of B17
In the records but if you have a hidden source or unknown just say it for the record
And I know RTS would apologize
No…it was a B-26 and not a B-17. I already admitted that I remembered that wrong. And it’s not even that I remembered it wrong. It’s that it doesn’t t make any difference to the point of the anecdote, although I always prefer to get the facts right if I can, but don’t always get it exactly right all of the time.
The point was old military bombers that have been converted into slurry bombers have a high rate of catastrophic failure while fighting wildfires. You know…because they are old military bombers and using them as slurry bombers very well might be subjecting them to stresses that they weren’t even designed for in the first place. You should see some of the places they fly those slurry bombers into and at such low levels because if slurry is dropped from higher elevations, it dissipates too much to be effective on the ground.
I know that it would be extremely dangerous to fly those heavily loaded slurry bombers into canyons or over ridge tops and mountains if they were brand new and not more than fifty years old. That was the point of my anecdote because I question the value of risk and cost versus return on investment (ROI).
And since I never saw a slurry bomber make an actual difference in fighting wildfires on the ground, I question the ROI. I think it’s basically a government funded welfare program for chemical corporations and those that own and operate slurry bombers.
I wasn’t traumatized by watching one impact into a fireball after losing an engine, but I did feel bad for the pilot, his friends and his family. He was a young man, although it would have been bad for an old man to die the same way.
And the way he died (if I remember the story accurately) was when he was ejected into a tree. Although I think if you are low enough to be injected into a tree from a plane, you were probably too damn low in the first place. I might have been traumatized if I would have been on the Sawtooth Hotshots at the time because the line boss pulled them from the fire line and took them to cut line around the new fire started by the crashed slurry bomber and to start removing the dead pilots remains out of the tree.
I also wonder what would have happened to us if the engine in his plane would have failed a few seconds before it did since he came right over us at less than 500 AGL (height above ground level) because at 140 miles per hour, it only took him a few seconds to go from right over our heads to where he crashed and exploded. That bomber crashed much closer to us than the photo I took of the smoke plume from my cheap little camera makes it look.
And if a slurry bomber would have impacted into a fireball on a ridge crawling with hotshots, it would made an even bigger mess since it was a huge debris field. The overhead had ordered us to pull out of the drop zone, but he came over us so fast that we didn’t have time to react.
And how would have the official report read? “The fire team overhead ordered the Happy Jack Hotshots to pull out of the drop zone but the crew didn’t follow orders.”
No…you always defend Fred as an automatic response and that is just one things that I love about you, And Fred is almost always a Richard Cranium and that is just one things I love about him.
Fred is like the scorpion that the turtle carried over the stream in the fable, he just can’t help himself because that is his nature. And that is okay, we all have some faults. The only question is, is someone’s value greater than their faults to make the ROI worth it?
Oh…and one more thing. Fred always automatically defends you too. And that makes him a good friend to have, even though he was a slacker on the Murdoch Basin Fire Of 1980 and just had to have the day shift so he could change the messy diapers on the Payson Hotshots in the daylight.
Gary–Organophosphates are a deadly poison used in rat poison and the human symptoms from it are paralysis
fertility issues
cancer
metabolic disorders, such as high blood sugar levels
inflammation of the pancreas
excess acid in the blood
brain and nerve problems
However the retardant is an ammonium phosphate. The ammonium phosphates when heated produce different chemicals, one of which was used by early miners to add ammonium nitrates or phosphates to burning embers to make cyanide for gold seperation. Cyanide will dissolve gold–one of the two things that will–the other aqua regia. acid.
The problem with the retardant, it is already a toxin but added are up to 15% of hidden chemicals. One I suspect to be bromine–another useful item for rat poison. But when you apply this concoction to a fire then there are various reactions and chemicals produced. The other problem is that things such as bromine are cumulative so that over time they pass a threshold to start diseases such as cancer and tumors.
Yes it is highly likely your brain tumors are from exposure to slurry–certainly to lung issues and depleted oxygen causes all kinds of maladies. I add you to my good thoughts list and sorry to hear of your situation. It pisses me off to think the problems of toxins from the retardants has not been a big issue with the Media. I don’t expect much from the Forest people–they seem to like the stuff for whatever reason.
Maybe we can get some of them to vap the shit if they believe it is harmless. They can become heroes or martyrs or lab rats depending on your view, like the people at Yarnell that I class as the Yarnell Experiment–Guinea Pig Village with myself included.
Probably not, but it’s a good thought. 🙂
It is horrible to watch the chemical world take so many down. In Yarnell, my friend Peggy Long took on cancer. In her case it was not recognized quickly–I visited her for two months before she finally passed. She loved cherry coke and would bring home cases to drink. Sugar is a certain cancer feeder–doctors mix it with the chemo drugs since it goes to the cancers but the cherry flavor also in not natural but a chemical. In her case they would not give her kemo–the doctor said you likely have two weeks when the cancer was seen. She lived two months but in pain and much pain medication. Fifty four is a young age–but this cancer is now overtaking heart disease as the number one killer.
Maybe this information will help someone addicted to coke or sugar. Too much especially if your habits of eating are junk foods will do what the retardant will do in a hurry. The part that most younger folk miss is that these things take more time with their systems–and the older you get, the more susceptible you become to chemicals and virus as you see the corona virus killing the elderly for the most part. Well the scientists from 160 nations believe the population needs to be down to 800 million by 2030 to save mother earth as a human habitation. They need to put their plan in high gear and perhaps they are.
Do not think the billionaires will represent you. When this country was founded, Adam Smith who influenced the constitution, said the rich need to be protected from the poor. Thomas Malthius said helping the poor actually was a wrong thing to do. Instead he said they should be crowded into their residences and with narrower streets so that the black plague could return upon them. David Recardo said those that have wealth are more intelligent and more worthy. These were the elite politicians and wealthy land owners-looking at the poor as so much meat.
That attitude came down from the middle ages when the Crown considered the poor as slaves and chattel–the cast system perfected. That may have changed some today, but you have to know that these billionaires think of themselves as above the average class person. Money does not make you more intelligent but in some cases it makes you think you are more intelligent and is a great ego booster when you have tons of wealth while you pay no taxes and the poor working stiff is at your whim and even paying your tax burden.
There is much psychology in all this–even black psychology to keep people in debt, keep them ignorant of the facts, and even in fighting wars that make the wealthy more wealthy and the poor more poorer making up the taxes to pay for the wars. Not to mention the young heroes fighting the wars and with their honest intentions being duped into protecting the big corporate interests.
It is well known that you have a better chance of dying from peanut reaction than a terrorist attack. When a bomb killed 3 runners in the Boston Marathon, that same day bombs killed 20 times the people in Iraq. But the media made the runner incident international news while little was said of the 60 dead that day. But war and killing is good for the economy of those in arms sales, oil, etc.
So a lot does not make sense–5 trillion spent in just 5 years for war reasons. Yet these profiteers know how to put out propaganda to get people behind their profit making wars. Every war since WW1 had a false premise–a false flag to incense the public to agree to serve up young lives and kill what added up to millions of souls. But we are generally none the wiser and go along even if our country had no business in those wars.
The heroes are still heroes–they had the right intentions to protect the country–but the rogues making the millions only look after their own lives–they still have the attitude of the Crown. Smile at the masses–they are at your feet.
Correction–Peggy died in Kingman, AZ–I have the Yarnell massacre on my mind.
Joy said,
You aint my uncle..Norb is…you are my ball buster.
https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_video.php?pk_vid=0000016907
And I say,
Joy,
I’m not trying to replace Norb in your life as your uncle. Norb is a great guy and has impressive street creds as retired fire line WF and who has made significant contributions to this thread from the beginning.
I want to be your crazy uncle who embarrasses you at Thanksgiving time, but you mostly ignore unless he does it in public. I see those as two separate and distinct positions in your life.
And it’s not that I enjoy breaking your balls, it’s just that after living in two cultures for my entire adult life where everyone got their balls broken by everybody else on a routine, if not daily schedule, it became a way of life for me. In addition to being SOP and a defense mechanism since everyone knows the best defense…is a good offense.
I didn’t create those two cultures, I just did what I had to do to survive for more than 30 years while immersed in them. And now…I’m afraid I’m not really fit to live in what people consider “normal” society.
But then again, I don’t really want to live in normal society since it is populated by mostly sheep 🐑 who spend their entire lives happily living in condition white. According to Dave Grossman, sheep only have two speeds…”graze or stampeding.” And who wants to live like that…I know you don’t? Grossman also says, “Once upon a time, America was full of sheep dogs. Now we’re raising a nation of sheep.”
Oh…and by the way. How did RTS’s 9th Circuit case go? Inquiring minds want to know and I do as well?
Gary,
Both myself and my family and Sonny love you for YOU
You are not crazy
People choose to PERCEIVE you in any manner they want.
That is their loss
My surroundings including Sonny are honored by your passion for truth yet until NWCG comprehends the CURRENT protocols and plans I am training for. IS dangerous
To swallow the kool aid … no way
Too much technology will end up showing them
Go Caples RX Burn …
Hashtag Jay Kurth and his professional backyard.
I am taught in my investigation course. EYEWITNESSES DO MATTER
Yet if Brad M was the LEAD INVESTIGATOR and we were in the papers with much photos then why did Brad FAIL to reach the eyewitnesses?
The class is trauma for me
I know another more crucial way to find point of origin than how I am being trained
Heart breaking
I hope Willis is way tired tonight after his National Staff Ride in Yarnell with all the top Hotshot Sups
Why is it a pure kid tells us Willis what he did but you told someone this week something I will fact check
If the kid is right … I will make it known publicly
Gary…stay being YOU
Oh and Willis
You may be hiking these folks today… but you are doing a DISSERVICE if you don’t have the actual folks who were South of where you were stationed June 30 2013 late afternoon that have refrained from drinking the kool aid and did the courageous part to share about the fire correctly …
Thank you Joy…that is all very inspiring except for the fact that Willis et al won. And they are still winning. The winners get to write the history books.
Oh behind the scenes he nor they are winning
Forensic weather is the future
As they spew … I gather for complete lessons learned
Yeah it may appear they have a handle on it
But if they keep sharing based on the incomplete SAIR
YOU and so many others will have done right.
If this was an old western draw and shootout like they reenact in Old Tucson
We have the better weapons
TRUTH
Plus life is not always like Charlie Sheen spews on winning
It could be about a much simpler word
L O V E
Happy Valentines Day to you and the world.
🌹🔥❄️🧁🍫🍺🥃🍷🥂🍾🍹🍸🏆🎷♟🏛🧯⚒🧲🔭🔬🧬🗝💞✝️👩❤️💋👩👩🏼🚒👨🏻🚒👨🏻🚒😇
Yeah…well…you know…that’s just like…ahhhh…your opinion man.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pWdd6_ZxX8c
And I’ve got lots more to say on the subject…like you know…you’re wrong. But I have very strict SOP’s I have painstakingly developed over the the years to deal with you that I have appropriately named…”The How To Respond To Joy Protocols.’ Because although you are always indomitable…you are very rarely correct.
But in the interest of an “Important Update If My Life!” AKA, “Oversharing,” I am kinda fried right now because I just got home from seeing, “1917.” And I bloody well hope that “Parasite” is a bloody good movie because I would have given all of the bloody Oscars to that bloody movie.
It was about British soldiers during WWI…get it with the whoever “bloody” thing.? TheY also dropped a few well placed F Bombs that really added to the dialogue. The judicious use of F Bombs isn’t a necessarily a bad thing, I have just used them wayyyy to much over the past several years because I was channeling my old back-of-the-hotshot-bus.
And I have some very important and insightful opinions on the use of the ‘Crummies” as well, versus the buses we used. Our buses couldn’t go as many places as Crummies do, but we didn’t have to carry spare bolts in our pockets to keep the bloody crew boxes attached to their bloody frames. But…I already have a long list of things they don’t give a fuck what I think about, so…
But…the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences and I rarely agree about anything and most of this year’s awards are no exception. But…it is a very intense movie so expect to be you know…fried after you see it.
So…the bottom line is that I am going to have to get back with you on all of the reasons you are wrong about this time Joy. But since I never win an argument with you…my very strict protocols just specify how I am to respond to you once and then move on without arguing with you,
Oh…and one more thing. Happy Valentines Day ❤️ to you as well, because you know…I don’t want to be rude. Very direct…but not rude.
And I left out an unusually high number of words in this post and didn’t finish a couple of thoughts but you know…I’m bloody well fried. Seeing a two hour movie about WWI was almost more than I could handle, so it’s really good I wasn’t around so they could make me go with about one million other American men to finally win the bloody war after everyone else had mostly killed off each other with years of really intense trench warfare. So…
I truly think you will be pleasantly surprised the areas you currently allege I am wrong about … hold the thought pretty please … after those movies and hearing how you swallowed a two hour block like that I found myself thinking cut that line and that line in that fillum … kinda like when I reread stuff I ramble on about. You will just have to agree you are right and I am wrong Gary…ok.🐶
I never could be right until I get schooled and old schooled and beat like a wicked step kid so yeah no winner in our sharing just caring…🙈🙉🙊🌝💕
Hey Sonny…this training of investigation had me off the Weavers for the National Yarnell Staff Ride 😮but we had our hiker replacements out there…I have empathy to the YHFire investigators to a point because they do as they are trained yet Gary is not fully in the loop of my private sector training and I am not able to share but I left the class for a good five minutes and sobbed because they are trained to do like Dr Ted Putnam showed us just not how we have ever been treated. I will one day show how my course taught me to what the SAIT SAIR places out… It hurts bad the disservice all they did when lives of that magnitude died.
I have Teresa Rigby and Carmen Thomason as my Instructors.
Good tag team and Zuni man Derrek
Do you know them?
I was mostly just teasing about always being wrong. And specifically I was referring to Willis et al “not winning” and that is a very subjective opinion and just reflects my, “not only is the glass half empty, but I think somebody probably pissed in it.”
Whereas you have a tendency to look at it like the glass is half full of good drinking water because you are a positive person.
I’m just a negative person…that’s all. I always expect the worst so I am never disappointed in life. It’s a defense mechanism.
You ain’t talking about worst case scenario Joy are you
Very sorry to hear your news tonight Sonny
May God be with us all.
Sorry.
Where is the comment you made…looking for it before I study
🚶🏼♀️🏃♀️👩👩👧👭Willis … Abel … Tru … Musser
I am sure you all stayed low but hope you smiled for the ladies at the observation deck … really sorry I was not on one of my normal Weaver hikes … how would you explain me at the lunch spot area that is not properly signed and fenced to your hotshot Sups.? Same way you have on June 30 2013?
Sad. Forensic weather and that technology I have been handing select loved ones will show where their kid was so will your product and it’s foundation be shown the light it deserves?
Clarity
What part am I wrong about?
Joy,
You’re currently enrolled in an investigator course “actual.” This is not in any way, shape or form what is performed by land management agencies in the aftermath of serious injuries or fatalities.
Woodsman
Woodsman
Clarity
Are you stating when I am taught is not reality for later on?
Maybe only used for BIA?
🙂
If I could have one question and only one question only answered about the Yarnell Hill Fire catastrophic disaster after almost seven years, here is my one question;
If Eric Marsh, who wasn’t with the crew when Captain Steed ordered them to prepare the deployment site, had time to run to them so he could be burned to death with them, why didn’t the crew run to him instead so everyone could live?
I assume it was because of the “fog of battle’ and a lack of situational awareness by both Marsh and Steed to fully comprehend what was happening to them, but I don’t know that? But…anyway, I would like to hear a full, complete and comprehensive answer to that question that explains who knew what and when they knew it.
I would also like to know what you think the answer to that question is?
And I’m not suggesting that a lack of situational awareness was their fault under the circumstances.
No wait…I guess I am suggesting that it was their fault if that us the answer. Hotshot crew bosses and Captains get paid to have complete situational awareness wherever they are, not to mop up or do any other routine duties.
That would be a great mystery since Marsh had ordered them to protect structures according to the Willis theory (“thats what they do)’. The other mystery is if he had time to come out of the boulders where I have to believe he was, instead of boulder Ranch–why did they not go into the boulders? Boulder Ranch (Helms} was 700yards,, while the boulder zone was 70 yards. Did they think the safety blankets were safe? In truth they may have been some effective in the boulder area–
I still have to believe that those men would have survived in the boulder patches because of the large area and the fact they were piled so high and large that the men could have gotten below them? Is there something in the wild land fire code that says do not use a large area that has no vegetation as a possible safe zone–especially if it has huge boulders as piled so that you can get in below them? Why would a dumb ass like Gilligan purposely stay as much as possible near and through boulders as an escape route.
In fact, we had early on viewed Marsh up close crossing the fire edge in boulders where there was vegetation burning without difficulty and some 75-100 yards below where he was crossing the fire edge is where the men worked line–it was somewhat more dense but also had plenty of boulders.
One had to conclude that they actually believed the fire blankets and the clearing of brush around them was going to save them. Maybe if I was brain fucked into believing those things would work, then I too might have died. But fortunately we had no such “protection” and used “hillbilly” logic–stay the hell out of that canyon and go away from the fire not toward it into a trap canyon.
Can we conclude–Marsh after all knew at least one thing–how to risk his crew and Steed knew how not to risk his crew, yet strictly followed orders on a daily basis (with some amount of argument}. So who was the man above Marsh that Marsh would follow the wild land fire man’s, woman’s, etc. creed of strictly following orders on a daily basis–hourly and minutely as well they could have added.?
I would have to say–something is missing in the training of wild land fire fighter bosses. It seems to be the attitude, at least was with GMHS bosses, that the bosses disregarded all safety rules and expected their crew to preform with total disregard to any safety measures. Structures are important even to the point of taking high risk in attempt to save them.
It is after all likely that burn outs were being done and may have contributed to the deaths–reporting those was prohibited despite the much evidence to support the fact. But even without the burnouts it was a fool’s decision to risk 19 lives in an effort to save structures, if indeed that was the purpose–and according to Willis, he believed that was their objective.
It would be my pleasure to see a real documentary made–one that films the actual route of the men from beginning to end. It would be imperative to walk 70 yards to the South of the death site and climb into the approximate middle of the football or greater sized vegetation free boulder area and film the areas below the boulders I keep talking about. Photos speak a thousand words and they might educate some city slicker as to possibilities beyond just clearing brush and jumping into a roast oven.
We have all wondered about this and the human factors gone wild? When a Deputy that had been on the scene that day said it was total confusion that day he was addressing the fact that no one seemed to know what anyone else was doing or had to do. Even the evacuation after all was done at the last moment causing people to flea only with their clothes on their backs.
So bring on the documentary–use Joy with her photographic memory and photos for a major director position and add about a dozen IM participants of real life experience leading crews and fighting wild fires in the raw. Introduce them and their experience and abilities all the way from smoke jumping, managing crews until retirement, to even lead investigating fire deaths and professional wild land fire fighting safety instructors. Actually people you dare not call “hillbilly” and whose expertise the public can trust and believe. You will not only convince people of the truth of what happened at Yarnell to kill 19 young heroes, but you will also cause the saving of future young lives in the wild land fire fighting profession.
I made the trip to the Chandler hospital where my youngest son lies with tubes running out of his kidneys. Today the doctors will give him the final report–has this cancer metastasized and entered the lymph nodes? I was with Mark, whose experience as an RN for more than 12 years tells me Dad, it just hasn’t sunk in–Jamie is done when the doctor tells him 99.9% it has. They are just waiting to get the three Doctors together that are looking at him to tell him the bad news. He is a goner, maybe a year or two and on dialysis and carrying a piss bag until he is dead. Mark says once the cancer has entered the lymph nodes there is no hope. Kemo might give him some delay but that is all.
It is snowing here, I see that as a good sign Whitey, my German Shephard looked out and thought different–she opted to stay indoors. So,. I can only hope he has a good chance–and I told him so. We had to go, spend a couple hours there and return–Mark has a job to get back to. It was a 24 hour run–that Tesla does cruise at 80 but the fuel stops are 30-60 minute delays and it took three each way. That was OK since we could take in a cafe and coffee at each stop and even relax. The trip started about 10AM and ended by 5AM the next morning.
He wanted me to look at his Honda and why it was using too much gas–funny how sometimes we try to look at anything but the situation at hand–I did but realizing that with tubes hanging out and your prognosis bad, it is just a matter to avoid reality.
Sometimes it makes a grown man want to break down and cry. Shit happens but some things just ought not to be. But even worse is avoiding attention to the truth that caused the horrible situation.
Found the comment
Your son hiked when we were doing avid hikes in Yarnell
And prostate is the top taker to Yarnell
I am sorry
We never seen so much bullshit to our lives Sonny
With much love … we are not too far in distance lately
Both blanketed with snow and Ivey roads
I have to study for exams
Read the rest of your comment later
Joy,
You have me curious now. Which Carroll ddI I know of? The one who is turning over in his grave because of what Frank Carroll, who was apparently a Squad Boss on a hotshot crew and who wrote something negative about RTS, or the one in his grave? Do you know which hotshot crew Carroll was Squad Boss on and when? That would probably answer my question.
I knew of the worthless PIO Frank Carroll. But then again, all PIO’s are worthless because they are paid to talk the talk even though they never walked the walk, so being a worthless PIO isn’t unique. Some are worse than others however, like Jim Paxon, I think he was THE worst? But that might actually make him the best PIO, since they kinda work on a reverse Bell Curve?
Anyway…can you clear up this whole Carroll thing for me? I guess it doesn’t really matter, but…
In any case, I agree with you. We don’t like anybody picking on RTS who doesn’t participate on our thread because we are like one big family. One big dysfunctional family, but a family nevertheless. I am competing for the crazy uncle slot who embarrasses you, but you mostly ignore except when he embarrasses you in public. I think I am very strong contender for that position. RTS has got a lock on the brainiac 🧠 spot and we love Sonny for the Chem trail alerts and if any of us need a chain saw fixed…we know who to call on. I used to know how to flip the toggle switch to on and pull the starter cord before I went to work hacking down a tree or snag, but I couldn’t sharpen the damn things very good, much less fix them after I broke one.
Gary, you breathed too damn much retardant and smoke. But don’t expect the greedy retardant corporations to make any recompense out of their billions in profits.
I had reviewed where WTKTT had posted about Brian Frisby coming out of the closet about the truth so that those that heard him out say the Yarnell Investigation was a complete farce.
I would agree with Gary–Dudley and anyone pretending that the investigation was the truth deserve dismissal–their pretenses will endanger future wild land fire fighters.
No…I would never expect that to happen…ever. But…I did get to see the elephant 🐘! 😎
Seems that Bill Buck had a conscience or he wouldn’t have closed his office door and confessed to…was it EH? Oh course, like you have been trying to tell people for 7 years now, the system protected it’s own by circling the wagons. Just as the USFS, and by extension state forestry agencies, has done since Mann Gulch and probably before that.
The low level firefighters take the blame not managers, culture, or training. The only difference is now they don’t have to come out and say it, its impliex.
Thanks for what you do, Gary.
Woodsman
I don’t know why Bill Buck confessed the truth to a member of the Battlement Creek Fire Serious Accident Investigation Team (different name, same thing) who helped to write the Serious Accident Investigative Report (different name, same thing).
And no…it wasn’t Ed Hollenshead, because at the time, Ed was just a low level hotshot Squad Boss on the Flagstaff Hotshots. Buck confessed to unindicted Federal felon Robert (Bob) Mutch, who won the U.S. Forest Service (retired); International Association of Wildland Fire (IAWF) International IAWF Wildland Fire Safety Award presented in Jackson Hole, Wyoming in 2008.
On a side note, Dr Ted Putnam won the same award in 2005. Bob Mutch might be second only to Ted Putnam with his reputation for promoting WF Fire Safety and some people would tell you Ted is second to him.
https://www.iawfonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Safety-Award-Summary-2019.pdf
I can tell you the reason why Bob told me that Buck called him into his office and after closing the door, confessed the real reason Tony Czak killed himself and two of his crewman in addition to causing one of his squad bosses to be so severely burned, it literally burned the fire resistant shirt off his back.
The fact that the squad boss survived in spite of having third degree burns all over his back and legs, is the reason why we know at one point during the burn over, Czak stood up, yelled something Squad Boss John Gibson couldn’t understand and then ran downslope into the fire. Czak was like Marsh and in really good physical condition and he made it about 1100 yards running through the flames, which is very impressive.
It is also why we know the crew member who also ran after Czak did, stood up at one point and screamed, “I’M ON FIRE” before he also ran downslope into the flames. He didn’t make it quite as far as Czak did, but he got quite a ways, a surprising distance really.
Like I already wrote, I don’t know why Buck confessed to Mutch? I can take a guess and say that Buck was probably overwhelmed with grief and guilt because Czak was crazy enough to be his new favorite hotshot crew boss on the Coconino after Van Bateman was promoted from the Flagstaff Hotshot Crew Boss to be Buck’s Assistant Fire Management Officer, which was called Fire Control Officer (FCO) back then rather than FMO.
The change in the titles of USFS FIRE officials matched an upgrade almost all of them got a few years later and was in line the official change in thinking within the USFS that wildfires were to be managed and not necessarily controlled…get it? Yeah…me neither.
Anyway…based on my law enforcement training and experience, most people are bothered by the own consciences and want to confess to someone, And by confessing to Mutch, Buck was able to make himself feel better without jeopardizing his reputation, job, or the hyper driven Coconino Hotshot Program that was existed on steroids.
I can also tell you the reason Mutch told me was the reason Buck confessed to him. Mutch said it was because he and Buck were friends who went way back together. This translates to Buck telling Mutch the truth because Buck knew he could count on Mutch to cover up the truth and lie in the official report.
Actually, Ed may not have even been working for the USFS at the time of the Battlement Creek Fire, Ed had graduated from NAU with a degree in Forestry and I think he may have already gone into the Peace Corps to work in Guatemala for two years?
And just as a reminder, l loved and highly respected Bill Buck back then and I still do today. It’s complicated.
Thank you for all of this, Gary.
No…thank you and everyone else. This is very inexpensive therapy.
Would you know that Wuhan China is the location of China’s main biological warfare laboratory? Some Chinese ;have been arrested for posting photos of the multitude of people trying to get into crammed hospitals with body bags stacked outside.
This, like the Yarnell Retardant dump is generally and old person or immune compromised person killer. Despite the fact that thousands on a Cruise Ship are quarantined as the sick are being hauled away, the Coronavirus strain is being played down. Yet those returning from China are being locked down under a two week mandatory quarantine.
My son, the RN says Dad, stay out of crowds and hospitals as much as possible–he believes this is an newly developed strain that will kill a huge chunk of the population.
Things look bad–and do you believe the Communist Chinese Government is going to say we lost a virus from our testing facility? Wuhan is a heavily populated metropolis so that is going to cause some Communist consternation–or is it just another government test? And if you can’t even trust a government Forest Agent to do a proper investigation, then how much less a Commie government? Despots and Power Mongers with their Corporate interests and backers have infested our political systems.
When I was in Phoenix last night looking in on my son Jaime, Mark said he had learned there is one reported case in Tempe of this deadly virus. Seems the biological warfare thing or perhaps population reduction plan is working. Cynical or suspicious? For me likely both.
https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_video.php?pk_vid=0000016907
I was in the question and answer section in above today Gary asking if the judges realized this is a National historical tragedy that has accession numbers and paper trails if the USDA did a transfer of data…PRODUCE THAT…
Gary…Frank is irrelevant except he boasted without source his opinion and we give you that right…to shout outs.
Not saying Frank is not welcome yet he did not deserve to spew and walk away…engage Frank…reach me.
You aint my uncle..Norb is…you are my ball buster.
Appx 58 minutes in is FRED’S CASE…9TH CIRCUIT
Hmmm…you still didn’t tell me if we are talking about a Frank Sr. and a Frank Jr. and who is on first, or is who on second? And I have some bad news for you about Fred’s case in the 9th Circuit and it is the very same bad news I have had for everyone who sues the Federal government in court.
And that is this.at 1:14 PM today, Fred was approximately 58 minutes from getting his ass handed to him by the 9th Circuit. I just wish that Fred would send his money to me if he has that much to waste on a fool’s errand. Just sayin…
But…most people don’t like my advice because I tell most people what they need to hear…not what they want to hear.
If Federal Law Enforcement Officers violate your Constitutional Rights, you can sue the Federal government in court, but only after they give you permission to do so.
That is why law enforcement, at all levels of government get the money they need, in general, to adequately train their work force. There are consequences if their workforce screws up and they weren’t adequately trained.
And that is also why FIRE, at all levels of government DON’T get the money they need, in general, to adequately train their workforce. There AREN’T consequences if their workforce screws up and they weren’t adequately trained.
It’s all about money. It’s always all about money.
Wait..the 9th Circuit Court Of Appeals is in San Francisco. Are you telling me that Fred has paid for a case to go all of the way to the 9th Circuit Court Of Appeals?
Yes Gary
It is in the 9th circuit
Where you been
Is that a rhetorical question…or do you really want to know where I have been?
I really care
Where have you been
Moab?
Seeing medical type people to figure out what is wrong with me while living near some world class medical facilities, but I might have to see some you know…psychiatrists to really get to the root of the problem?
Is it in the 9th Circuit, or the 9th Circuit Court Of Appeals? Maybe I assumed to much because I thought Fred’s original case was over and he had already got his ass kicked?
Nothing personal about Fred, everybody gets their ass kicked when they sue the federal government unless they have had their civil or constitutional rights violated by jack booted thugs. So…
But…I’m rootin’ for him! He will need some emotional support. You know…just as soon as he gets his ass kicked, which has probably already happened?
I’m pretty sure his attorney must have told him he was going to get his ass kicked? Otherwise, it would be legal malpractice and he should now sue his attorney fir misrepresentation. Just sayin’…
Life ain’t fair.
Put your trust in the Lord Fred
I meant Gary
Well okay then. I really want Fred to win one for the team and he has taken a bold step in spite of the advice I gave him before he filed his case because I think I know how the system works and the deck is stacked against ‘we the people” and I didn’t want to see him waste him money. But now that he is there, I really hope he wins.
And just FYI. When you get to write the laws that basically say, “We win because we write the laws”, it tends to give me a negative view. I spent a lot of years fighting with the Federal government, and it was tough…double tough, although I did win in the end. But I wouldn’t choose do it over again unless I had to. But I won “administratively”, I couldn’t have won in court because you know…they write the laws that say they win before the fight even starts,
Don’t take my word for it. There is a lot of case law on the subject.
https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/sovereign_immunity
Although I already know that I will never prevail in a discussion regarding a difference in opinions with you (AKA…win an argument) so…I give up.
Oh…and one more thing. This explains why Fred is the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history, he just doesn’t give up. I would have quit a long time ago. But then again…I wanted to quit being a hotshot about half way through my first season.
So…maybe Fred will win after all? I take it all back. Go Fred…Go!
It was Sr I thought you knew … yet is was Jr who was giving the flatulence
About Fred’s case
He will win it Gary
As Fred would say
GOD WILLING
The days when you knew the system is different
So the Frank Carroll I knew of is dead! OMGosh…no one told me. I take back everything I said about him as a PIO! Now I feel terrible. I am now in the Winter Of My Life and I have to now start checking the obituaries to see who I know has died.
And yes…Go Fred Go! Things are definitely different now than back in my day. There is electricity and lots of other things that amaze me.
Bummer about Frank Sr. Too bad Frank Jr. is such a little jerk! A former hotshot Squad Boss should show some respect to RTS. All former hotshot crew bosses should be shown respect just because. That’s how it was in my day!
You still haven’t told me what crew Frank Jr. was on. Getting information out if you is like pulling teeth, except when I don’t want to know about something and then you overshare.
It must have been an R-5 crew? You know how they are. 🤨
I have no clue what alleged crew Frank was on or not on …
Just wanted to say you are the best of the best Gary…
I miss your wit.
Thank you, but I’m not dying, I’m just not going to argue with you any further about Sovereign Immunity. 😎
No arguement
I get the toughy and what you are saying yet I have HOPE
That is all
I get ya
I think
👍😁🤭😏🤔😉😁🤣🤣🤣
Touhy
Cell correction
By the way Gary
We are all dying
Just a matter of when
And I can say as well
We are all dying
To finally meet you
We always seem to be in Moab but never cross paths
☺️
In other words I am doing two things and two things only.
1. Seeing doctors and specialists in various specialities while undergoing a long series of various tests, evaluations, examinations which is heavily centered on some very high tech imaging including MRI’s and CT scans.
2. Working on my book while continuing to participate on the thread which is a symbiotic process since one benefits the other.
No Jeeping, no traveling, no goofing off. Well…I do some goofing off and see as many movies as I want to go to. I’m really looking forward to seeing “1917” for example and “The Gentlemen.”
And even though I’m now apolitical, I can tell everyone that there is nothing be afraid of if you get the opportunity to go into a Medicare type health care program.
It’s like they issued me my very own “Health Care Money Printing Machine” and they don’t care how many health care dollars I print. I feel like I won the health care lottery.
I just wish everyone else had what I now have. Health care shouldn’t be a privilege…it should be a basic human right fir every citizen of the richest and most powerful nation the world has ever known.
It’s not free. Medicare costs everyone who participates in it $135.00 a month and I still pay hundreds each month for the insurance to pay the 20% Medicare doesn’t cover. But overall…it’s all good.
And this is getting down into the weeds, but there might be some out there that need to know how this works. I know that every medical problem I have is related to my work for the government. And so you may be wondering where the US Dept, of Labor, Office Of Workers Compensation comes in? That will be determined at the end if the process, which could be years from now, not at the beginning. In the meantime, OWCP doesn’t pay for anything. But I guess in the end they will reimburse Medicare and my private insurance company, (except for my brain tumor, that isn’t job related) I guess? But except for the insurance premiums I would be paying for anyway, it’s all tax dollars, one way or the other, so I don’t care. Just keep good medical records because in the end, those will be critical. I guess?
Whoops,
That should be…US Dept, of Labor, Office Of Workers Compensation PROGRAM.
They are referred to just as OWCP and they, and they alone, are the arbiters of the acceptance, or rejection of responsibility for every injury or disease a federal employee has…or gets.
So…keep good medical records….unlike me! Live and learn. 😞
“There’s an old saying in Tennessee, I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, ‘Fool me once, shame on … shame on you. Fool me… You can’t get fooled again!'” 😎
http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1870938_1870943_1870944,00.html
Oh…and one more thing.
“God Bless America!”
Oh…and we are working up to a surgical procedure on my larynx and throat. I already had a similar operation in about 2005, but, I guess it’s about time for another one? And if I were you…you WF out there, I would at least try to wear a respirator as much as possible during mop up when most of the really bad exposure occurs. As I have said, I wore one for six or seven years during mop up whenever my face with in the really bad smoke. You can’t wear one cutting line or hiking up a mountain, or doing anything else that requires heavy breathing and exertion, but who busts ass mopping up? Yes…you work steady and get the job done while earning your pay, but you probably don’t bust ass?
Clarification & Routine Housekeeping
1. I don’t believe that I did anything to create the hotshot culture I am attempting to both explain and justify in my posts, but I did do everything to perpetuate it and in the end, export it to Santa Fe. That was why Orlando hired me for the job to build his crew, the Santa Fe Hotshots against the general opinion that was widespread on the forest at the time to hire someone from the area and preferably the former Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss, who was still on the Forest from the previous crew that had been disbanded several years earlier because they were more like an organized street gang than a hotshot crew. Orlando wanted a Coconino National Forest Hotshot Crew clone on the Sant Fe because of the well known Coconino Hotshot culture. And just as a reminder, the former Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss was then hired by the Carson National Forest because I assume that they wanted to perpetuate the organized street gang culture that the Carson Hotshots were infamous for. And Al Lopez did a bang up job and fulfilling that task. We worked around the Carson Hotshots a number of times and that crew was substandard to the very worst R-3 SWFF crew and a scary bunch. RTS has assured me that the Carson Hotshots are no longer like that and I want to believe him.
2. OWCP isn’t important to me because I am retired, neither need or am eligible for Continuation Of Pay (COP) for obvious reasons, and I am on Medicare. But if you are still working and you develop similar problems, COP and getting your medical bills paid by the government through OWCP will mean everything to you. It can be done because I did it at the end of my time as a hotshot, but it was double tough. OWCP is fair, but they deal with government employees who are running job related injury scams everyday and so to say they start out cynical, is an understatement.
Oh…and one more thing. You never want to even start down that road unless you absolutely have to because even if you win…you lose. The formula that OWCP uses is guaranteed to leave leave you feeling like have been really…you know…@#$&%! Over!
So…you should think about wearing a respirator while mopping up.
But if you aren’t planning on doing the job for an extended period of years, you will most likely be okay playing Russian Roulette with your health. But the more years you do it, the higher your odds are of you know…getting @#$&%! Over! for obvious reasons.
RTS must not have done much mop up? Hotshot crew bosses are neither required or expected to mop up. So if RTS went and sat on a ridge all day lickin’ his nuts in the sun as crew lookout…that was not only okay, it was expected. Eric Marsh didn’t even carry a tool with him.
Did you carry a tool RTS? Just askin’…
And that isn’t a slam on Marsh. I don’t think a lot of hotshot crew bosses carry a tool? In fact…it might even be frowned on because that might be a sign that they don’t take their crew boss job serious as they should.
It has been reported that Don Mackey had his head down sharpening a saw while the fire he was in charge of managing preheated the huge canyon the South Canyon Fire On Storm King Mountain until it was good and ready for an area ignition that killed him and 13 other WF.
It has also been reported that Tony Czak had his head down burning while the Battlement Creek Fire cut off their escape route to the safety zone.
I’m pretty sure Bob P. didn’t carry a tool as the Captain of the Oak Grive Hotshots?
I mean that grizzled old sergeant with the 7th Air Cav didn’t bother to carry a rifle with him into the Is Drang Valley in the movie, “ We Were Soldiers Once…and Young. So…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_DUFAZcKL3k
“Ia Drang Valley”
Whoa now…this was another side trip down a rabbit hole. Or was it?
About RTS
🤯
I really wonder why he is such a braniac
🧠
Do you know why?
Is it a hotshot thing?
No…it’s not specifically a hotshot thing because people who end up in that job tend represent the entire spectrum from dumb as a bag of hammers to really smart people.
RTS is kinda in a class all by himself…I think with everything he’s got going’ on?And if that sounds like it’s neither a criticism nor approval, well then…I got it right
RTS and I are diametrically different in just about every way and that should tell you just how different people can be who are attracted to that job.
For example…I think RTS believes that a hotshot crew is made of up to 20 unique individuals who both think and act independently and he made a career out of elevating the job?
Whereas I believe a hotshot crew is a highly developed fire fighting machine that is compromised of up to 20 separate components that all work in unison and I did what I could to reduce the job down to the very basics. And those basics are of course as follows;
1. Cut line and burn it out.
2. Cut line and backfire it.
3. Cut line, burn it out and backfire it.
4. Repeat as often as necessary.
5. Mop it up.
.
But I also think a hotshot crew is a machine that is capable of dividing as needed into highly effective and independent free thinking firefighting modules as small as one person but usually not smaller than three individual firefighters because that is how many fit into the smaller helicopters such as a Hughes 500 or a single cab smoke chaser pick up truck.
And having a big IM Thread family get together is very high on my priority list. We could call it our first IM thread family reunion!
Gary says:Whereas I believe a hotshot crew is a highly developed fire fighting machine that is compromised of up to 20 separate components that all work in unison and I did what I could to reduce the job down to the very basics. And those basics are of course as follows;
1. Cut line and burn it out.
2. Cut line and backfire it.
3. Cut line, burn it out and backfire it.
4. Repeat as often as necessary.
5. Mop it up.
That backs up the fact we saw those guys at the Shrine lighting up bushes on the west side of the dirt road. Sounds like it backs up DNS and his talk about burns in the Sesame St. Area.
But the investigators did not want to tell about those extra burn outs.
I don’t think I explained what I was trying to say very well? Or perhaps more accurately…I think I assumed to much. I assumed everyone would interpret what I was writing, in the the same way I would.
But…that was obviously a mistake on my part because there isn’t anything about what was done (and RTS has told me that a firing operation DID occur in the Shrine area and I have am not qualified to contest that statement, and so I am just going with the given assumption that a firing operation DID occur) on the Yarnell Hill Fire and what we did on countless fires….very successfully I might add without a single notable mishap.
So…that being said, (or written) there is no relationship between what we did following our 5 step formula above and what DID occur in the Shrine area.
What we carried out every time without exception…were approved tactical operations conducted by experienced, disciplined and trained professionals following best practices and established protocols according to a written operations plan to further the overall fire line objectives that were determined by a Plans Chief and approved by the Fire Boss (Incident Commander) in coordination and communication with the appropriate level of fire line overhead and adjoining forces with everyone who needed to be in the loop with full situational awareness, in the loop. That includes and accurately describes what happened the Battlement Creek Fire with the exception of Tony Czak’s reckless spirit and spontaneous improvisation. But that was his exception and his exception alone. Yes…there were some overhead who could have done things better and had the direct order of the Chief of the USFS (after the Loop Fire Of 1966) been followed, everyone would have survived in spite of Crew Boss Czak’s reckless spirit and spontaneous improvisation.
But here is the bottom line. No matter what anybody else does wrong…a hotshot crew boss always owns everything bad that happens to his or her crew. They operate under the very same rules as the Captain of a ship or the Pilot-in-Charge. They own everything that goes wrong because the the final “go…no go” decision is theirs to make and theirs alone.
The latter firing operation that DID occur in the Shrine area was a Royal Cluster Fuck. I just don’t know if anybody really knows just how disastrous and catastrophic that firing operation was….I know I don’t? I accept that it DID occur…but that’s as much as I know and I am taking that on faith.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on February 7, 2020 at 1:14 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> https://www.ca9.uscourts.gov/media/view_video.php?pk_vid=0000016907
>>
>> I was in the question and answer section in above today
>> asking if the judges realized this is a National historical tragedy
>> that has accession numbers and paper trails
>>
>> if the USDA did a transfer of data…PRODUCE THAT…
>>
>> Appx 58 minutes in is FRED’S CASE…9TH CIRCUIT
The ‘individual’ cases contained in that ‘full’ recording have now all been ‘saved’ as individual recordings on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals YouTube Account.
Here is JUST the relevant one…
United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit
Case Number: 18-16371 – Fred Schoeffler v. USDA
February 07, 2020
W.P. Carey Armstrong Great Hall
Arizona State U. Phoenix
Heard Before ( Judges ): TASHIMA, HURWITZ, MILLER
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IN6rsqLob4o
————————————————————————————–
APPEAL DESCRIPTION:
Plaintiff appeals the district court’s judgment in favor of the U.S. Department of Agriculture in a Freedom of Information Act action seeking information related to a fire near Yarnell, Arizona where nineteen firefighters perished.
————————————————————————————–
Not sure what the final decision will be… but I will bet that attorney ( Bill Solomon ) who was representing the U.S. Department of Agriculture needed more than one beer to put those flames out.
Just based on those ‘oral arguments’… the ‘decision’ should come down in favor of Fred Schoeffler, et. al. No question.
The freakin’ USDA attorney himself ( Solomon ) even ADMITS ( twice ) during his OWN oral arguments that the emails obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA already PROVE there was a ‘hard drive’ that was used to accumulate ALL of the AFUE recordings from June 30th, 2013.
So where is that HARD DRIVE?
Does it still exist? Was it destroyed? If so… WHO destroyed it?
This is what they were/are REQUIRED to respond to according to FOIA laws.
That was what I stated yesterday
They need to show index log the destroyed it
If they did then it is illegal because its permanent records
Then if they did give it to state BY LAW they can only give a copy because the original stays with custodian and either way there is a paper trail and transfer index log
I an disappointed in the fact they state in video it went to stare and HOW MANY YEARS HAVE I went to state of many agonies including Archives to see zip but its officially in right hands right now under review.
Typos theu out
Agonies is agencies
Auto corrected
The Chem Trails are real and have been going on for decades. Title 50, Sec. 1520: The Secretary of Defense may conduct tests or experiments “involving the use of a chemical agent or a biological agent on a civilian population”.–if they are related to a research activity. The law was amended in 1997 –now the experiments must be first notified to Congress 30 days in advance.
But what about top secret defense actions preformed by CIA and other Nationdal Defense operatives?
There spraying of various chemicals is real–people are beginning to notice it and at times hospitals in areas after spraying load up–usually it is flu like symptoms that there is no cure for and last three months or longer. You can call 1-800-I got flu so the government can get a count on how many get sick. There is one for I got Meningitis as well. Nothing for I got sprayed with orange retardant–well it is not secret defense measures–those clandestine spraying s are often at night if they give a bad discoloring such as the brown goo people sometimes find on their automobiles and yards early morning. Your local fire department will sometimes wear hazmat suits and spray it off with a chlorine solution but often refuse due to getting it into the drainage and water systems.
Daytime spraying is obvious. Lots of Phoenix residents are aware of it and see areas crisscrossed until the smog like essence settles on the city. More people are becoming aware of the federal experiments–and you see the returning Iraq and Afghanistan warriors having health problems–one method of weakening the enemy is now by secretly spraying these biological agents on the population. The problem is the wind and currents in higher atmosphere sometimes does not agree with assumptions. Then you have an excess of sickening your own troops. The Germans sometimes had the problem when using their mustard gas.
Using low level biological war fare is not easily detectable–people coming down with the flue like symptoms are unlikely to blame night time or even the so called contrails for their malaise. Well it did save a lot of our soldiers in Iraq and they walked through those armies there like a knife through hot butter. And we did not mnd shooting them with plenty of radioactive bullets–gives them something to worry about and plenty of cancer work for the medical profession
Our elitest Prince Philip once said he wish he could come back as a deadly virus if he were reincarnated to get rid of the extra billions that infest the planet. Top scientists came up with an ideal population of 600,000,000. Some say 500 million is the ideal figure—so that leaves 7 billion that need to be eradicated. I think that is in the minds of the elitist groups that constitute less than 1% of the population. In fact 600 million is less than 1 tenth of one percent of the population that according to these 160 notable scientists is what should be left on earth. That is a stammering amount of people that need to go–to make this planet to properly sustain life and maintain a safe earth environment.
They believe there is a tipping point that the population will end up destroying the earth environment to where it will be inhabitable for humans. Well for one thing these elite folk in the less than !% category and their puppet politicians, media, education system, and religious bigots are doing little to improve the environment and health–so with nip and tuck and deceit and secret chemicals and keeping the public dummed down they are doing a magnificent job of making their hopes come true. It is a good idea they have of bringing in religions that do not give a shit about life –especially of people that are not practicing their religion. Certain the Muslims are that way, but you see it even in most creeds–if you don’t follow their brand you are believed to be on a fast track to hell so you are pretty much expendable.
So if you are feeling sick, loosing memory, feeling less than your good self, coughing, breathing badly–then you are likely a guinea pig but with the great propaganda you likely will say it can’t be. (I am all of the above and a little more–and in my older years have come to understand why. It is close to impossible to escape the effects of these chemicals sprayed in the air, retardant chemicals and chemicals added to foods so you become addicted and so forth. This is a commercial world–not many of those leading the show are interested in your health. They do keep a close eye on the stock markets since they have some heafty investments there.
As we are generally a tough bunch in America–we can stand the poisons pretty good because we have doctors that can line us up with pills and shots to keep us in motion. But for me, I don’t like running on half a deck-well in my case it might be less. I am not making my hikes–I should be but they have shortened. Maybe it was the recent spraying and maybe I will have a comeback. It does seem like I have been used as a lab rat so much of my life but was not aware of it until I sat down and thought about it. Maybe the whole planet is nothing but lab rats, an experiment to see if the prisoners on this planet will survive–and maybe the gods and aliens will once again wipe us all off the map and start the experiment over again. One thing is certain if the records bear truth–every soul was drowned rats except for a few on a boat. And according to Revelation that will pretty much happen again–only this time it is said it won’t be quick but by the four horsemen by starvation, disease, war, and nasty hot burning environment.
It is known that a jet even without the extra spray nozzles like used on crop dusters and retardant planes burns an enormous amount of fuel.. A 747 burns a gallon a second so that a single trip to Ireland uses about 240 thousand gallons of Jet A fuel. If you multiply the factor with adjustments, there are five million flights a year or more–civilian and military. There is a lot of CO2 and plenty of the Nitrous Oxide and that is the real culprit stripping out the ozone.. Without the ozone then the solar radiation comes through–why if you are a young person wanting to be a doctor–dermatology will be big–well it already is but will increase since cancers–especially those skin cancers will greatly increase as ozone is depleted. And the best flight zones for jets are in the stratosphere right in the ozone layers. But humans are not the only ones to suffer from depleted ozone–trees even have their immunity broken down so we see bugs taking over in forest lands.
People on the whole just do not understand the delicate balances involved in nature. There are somethings that have a threshold where the balance can not be restored–nuclear winter is very real but also the pollution we have created by our oil based economy is greatly endangering the planet as people increase and populations demand more.
Yet the billionaires that pat the little children and pretend to be common folk have little interest in clean energy and free energy for the common man. How can the profit from cheap or free and beside, people that have free time away from their slave labor jobs might be a threat to the agendas of their power positions.
And education–I spent at least 9 years of my liife in University classrooms. Add the 12 years of public schools. This is a lot of brain wash and hog wash as well. True there was a lot of learning–I can type –well I used to do 60 words a minute–probably 30 now. I learned good English but botch it a lot since I don’t bother to go back and correct the Queen’s English–she doesn’t write proper Irish so I forgive her and her cronies for that and don’t care if the English professors I had ever read and don’t like my improper English. But was the education I got worth the time and money? I think I over paid–it should have been a free thing for all people. Shit Christ never charged a dime for what he knew. He did better than most doctors and some of his apostles did as well.
But these are my way of thinking–and I am glad you have yours and can express it freely. But even that is being threatened–you have thought police–you dare not get too far out there–you might be labeled a terrorist just by your thoughts.
But the sum of it all is that truth is a great empowerment. The powers that rule will do their best to keep it from us –their devices of secrecy, brainwash, propaganda, lies and seduction serve them well, least facts and truth reveal their fronts.
Attention RTS!
What are your thoughts/opinions regarding the effectiveness of slurry as a wildland firefighting tool, while disregarding any side effects of
or possible harm to animals, fish, people or the environment in general?
And remember…there is no such thing wrong answer here, except of course possibly for the one you may give, but go ahead…make yourself vulnerable for the good of this blog..or thread. Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh…and one more thing. I do not however, question the dedication, courage, or motives of those air crews who risk everything to do the best job they possibly can to deliver slurry to the right place, at the right time and in the right way.
It’s just that there are so many variables working against them, that accomplishing those objectives is double tough and a very dangerous thing to do. You would have to put a gun to my head and convince me you would kill me to ever get me to go up in a slurry bomber fir a check flight, much less a slurry drop.
Canyons, mountains, updrafts, downdrafts, heavy loads, flawed engines and air frames in old planes, being required to be at low altitudes at high air speeds, dead air, wind or other weather factors, demanding air attack, I think the list goes on and on, most of which I don’t know about, understand or fully appreciate.
Attention Gary,
You asked: “What are your thoughts/opinions regarding the effectiveness of slurry as a wildland firefighting tool,… ?”
Short and sweet. The effectiveness of slurry as a wildland firefighting tool is good to excellent on a case-by-case basis based on fuels, weather, topography, fire behavior, and pilot(s) experience, skill(s), courage, decisiveness, timing, tenacity, and much more. Some of these taken to an extreme may even be considered as hazardous.
And then there is the dreaded June 30, 2013, YH Fire and the Air Operations near-complete chaos, near-misses, drops splitting heads, no coordination, and much more revealed in some of the less-than-redacted BRHS public records.
You further posted: “And remember… there is no such thing wrong answer here …”, (emphasis added)
No wrong answer(s) here … are you f**king kidding me? Looks like PLENTY of wrong answers! Try these listed below, several of which I was unfortunately involved with, and you worked on the multiple fatality 1976 Battlement Creek Fire in CO.
( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_United_States_airtanker_crashes )
Wildland Fire / Aircraft Firefighter Fatalities in the United States compared with Ground Based Firefighter Fatalities (1955 to 1997) – Charles L. Bushey of Montana Prescribed Fire Services, Inc. – Headquarters, 1333 Colton Blvd., Billings, MT, USA 59102-2436
( http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:m4w7tGesPFoJ:airtanker.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Bushey-Aerial-Wildfire-Accidents-1955-1997.pdf+&cd=13&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us )
And, of course, you may KMA and please ESAD on this one: “… except of course possibly for the one you may give, but go ahead…make yourself vulnerable for the good of this blog..or thread. Inquiring minds want to know.”
RTS friend,
I love powersaws. I also love my old time bucking saws, axes, froes and drawknives but there’s just something about powersaws that completes me.
I used to be a Stihl guy until they disappointed me with their over-complicated German engineering, cornered the market on factory parts and tried to force me into the dealership with proprietary tech. Oh yeah, there’s that whole EPA mandated fuel-geysering tank vent systems too…that I seem to be the only one whom has figured out.
But Husqvarna turns me all warm and fuzzy. OEM parts on every street corner, simple fuel/oil caps, and an air filter system that doesn’t need to be cleaned every 10 minutes. Which, by the way, Stihl has copied finally after all these years. Those Swedes I tell ya!
I custom free hand file my chains to my own specs dependent on species I’m cutting. Buy chain by the 100′ roll because I might need skip, semi-skip, full, semi-chisel for dirty wood, chisel for clean, or even square grind for drag racing my buddies. My saws? They cut.
I’ve got enough parts to build saws from scratch for 3 or 4 lifetimes. There’s something to building a saw and breaking it in on a stick of Doug fir, set just on the fat side, with a Woodsman special grind self-feeding & throwing chips. Big fat chips you could mulch your shrubs with. It’s one of those things that bring joy to my life.
Remember, don’t sharpen your chain because it’s dull. Sharpen it to keep it from getting dull.
Your friend,
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Sharpen your chain to keep it from getting dull. Very sound advice. And for safer, more efficient cutting.
Let’s build one together I have a parts kit for a new husky
Is it a Holtzfforma kit? I find those interesting and changing a few parts for OEM probably makes a good saw. I’d start with SKF or Nachi bearings, part #6202-C3 for most Huskys up through the 372’s. Order them from a bearing supplier at $5 each instead of OEM at $16. If you tear a factory saw down you’ll find they are factory SKF. Although i dont have any evidence to say what comes in the kit wouldnt work fine.
Let me know which model if it’s a clone & I’ll look up the factory assembly tools you’ll need for crankcase assembly. They’re very reasonably priced and make life much easier.
Of course, I may be telling you things you already know. Have fun with the project. If I had to have 1 saw for life & no others, I would choose a 372XP original non-Xtorq. It’s just perfection.
Cool!
Woodsman,
I’m just getting started with the kits. Old rebuilds I’m a little foggy. A lot of fun to come though..
DownhillIndirect
RTS,
I don’t know why you continue to lash out and hurt me? All I have ever shown to you is love and understanding. At times like this…I always find solace by retreating to the music video I always play when you attack me because it makes me feel less vulnerable and fragile. But I’m at a place in my life where I accept the fact that I’m just not a lovable person. 😞
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
Baby don’t hurt me, don’t hurt me
No more
What is love?
Yeah
I don’t know why you’re not fair
I give you my love, but you don’t care
So what is right and what is wrong?
Gimme a sign
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
Oh, I don’t know, what can I do?
What else can I say, it’s up to you
I know we’re one, just me and you
I can’t go on
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
What is love?
What is love?
What is love?
Baby don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
No more
Don’t hurt me
Don’t hurt me
I want no other, no other lover
This is our life, our time
We are together I need you forever
Is it love?…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XPmBnnon0Ek
And the chick 🐥 at the beginning…she is blowing a kiss from me to you. So…
Oh…and one more thing. Your answer…was a really good one, so I’m going to use it word for word in my book and not even attribute it to you because I want people to think I’m smart just like you are. Just keeping being you brother…because I do love you like a brother from another mother.
But…heads up. I am working myself up to go all out on my really big disagreement with you and I’m afraid it’s going to get you know…ugly because you know…you are wrong about that one…really wrong.
Sometimes…when I think about disagreeing with you, I feel like Dennis Hopper talking about Colonel Kurtz in “Apocalypse Now.” But…
Hey, man, you don’t talk to the Colonel. You listen to him. The man’s enlarged my mind. He’s a poet warrior in the classic sense. I mean sometimes he’ll… uh… well, you’ll say “hello” to him, right? And he’ll just walk right by you. He won’t even notice you. And suddenly he’ll grab you, and he’ll throw you in a corner, and he’ll say, “Do you know that ‘if’ is the middle word in life? If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs and blaming it on you, if you can trust yourself when all men doubt you”… I mean I’m… no, I can’t… I’m a little man, I’m a little man, he’s… he’s a great man! I should have been a pair of ragged claws scuttling across floors of silent seas…“
https://youtu.be/XdePFSBQkqg
I always remember this version of the song, Gary
Yes…that is my very most favorite as well, but it doesn’t have a chick in it to blow RTS a kiss for me. So…, wait…is using the term chick “both misogynistic AND really old fashioned?”
I’m going to wait as long as possible before going head to head with him in a battle of wits because to fight with him on a cerebral level, is usually like I taken an email to a gun fight. And then in the end, I usually have to resort to, “Oh yeah, well…well…well…@#$& you and the horse you rode in on. Which…you know, can be an indication that I have a weak position to argue and I hate that. So…I
Gary- we really need to make our own version for RTS-
that was not her blowing a kiss really – poor fella – that gal was ghetto tagging the next chick to start her dance —- you never been to Harlem huh — you wanna learn the moves, you start there and you will learn the levels of air kissing and in connection to dance and jump rope. Minus the mwah sound.
maybe we can this gal to do the start of our version;
https://youtu.be/LSAbtc0gGw0
she seems to be having a good time where your seems like ‘OH NO’ not RTS —- ( no emoticon for that face reaction )
Plus the chances of RTS clicking on your video link-
is next to MOST LIKELY NOT unless it had free ad to Medaglia D’oro Instant Espresso Coffee then maybe he would…
Oh…I have now. officially been schooled on ghetto shuffle dance etiquette. Thank you.
Gary,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-fire-deaths-were-avoidable-if-crew-had-followed-wildfire-safety-rules-research-paper-concludes/#comment-482335
Gary,
If a journalist and an alleged hotshot squad boss like Frank made a cut throat comment with intent to disparage….what’s your take on that…everyone should be on board with frank
I dont think so…I think Frank’s dad is turning in his grave for this stuff…you knew Frank’s dad right?
I don’t know? 🤔 I know of “A” Frank Carroll. The Frank Carroll I knew of was a nothing of a wannabe pretend wildland firefighter who was even worse than Talking Head Jim Paxon, who told all of the lies while under oath in federal court about how every fire manager in the USFS is a closet fire bug who runs around setting fires to “clean up the forest” with unofficial control burns (prescribed fires) to get his buddy the real fire bug Van Bateman out of serving any sentence after he was convicted of arson because management won’t let them burn. When the truth is, you have to force most (okay…all of them) fire managers to burn because there isn’t an upside for them because if everything goes right, they get to keep the job they already have, but if anything goes wrong (and there are a lot of things that can and do go wrong), they might destroy the forest or a city and kill a bunch of people, or wildland firefighters.
And on a side note, Van Bateman deserves some understanding because he has a psychological disorder and to some extent couldn’t control his actions because he is (he didn’t get cured, he just got caught, he is still mentally ill) a pyromaniac, But he deserves understanding…not exoneration.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pyromania
And I still owe an explanation of that phenomenon to TTWARE (and my book) from about a year ago, but I have been busy, mostly doing nothing much…but I have been really busy doing nothing much.
Whoops…got sidetracked by one of my pet peeves…Jim Paxon.
Anyway…the Frank Carroll I knew of was worse than Jim Paxon and was a nothing Forest Public Information Officer (PIO) and PIO for a Type 1 fire team.
But all of that is beside the point because I’m not going to go on and on about how great RTS is because I’m already tired of typing. So…I think everybody who reads this blog already knows what I think of wildland firefighters in general and hotshots in particular?
So all I have to say is this, “Fred J. Schoeffler was the longest serving hotshot crew boss in history…full stop…bottom line…end of story…enough said because that is double tough (MIB 1).”
So whether we are talking about the original Frank Carroll or a new Frank Carroll…it doesn’t really matter because neither Frank Carroll matters….full stop…bottom line…end of story…enough said.
Oh…and one more thing. I consider RTS to be a worthy opponent. And I don’t say that about very many people I have met in my life since I ate most people up who ever challenged me for breakfast and I shit them out by lunchtime. And my resume proves that boast.
You know…except for you Joy because you have beaten me like a rented mule. So I don’t cross you anymore…but I still like to fight with RTS to stay in shape…at least a little bit.
In other words, if you beat the bushes hard enough or look under enough rocks, you can find somebody to criticize everybody. I think there are even some people out there who would criticize me.
Yes…I think even that is true, as hard as it is to fathom. But…if you simply look at the totality of the contributions RTS has made to the world of FIRE, versus the contributions either one or two nobodies (depending on how many Frank Carrolls we are talking about here) made to the world of FIRE, well…enough said.
I know there are a lot of people out there who say who cares, what is done is done, let’s just move on? But…I don’t agree with that assessment and I have no intention of moving on until I get some sense I have made at least some difference in mitigating the next hotshot burn over because another crew is led by a Gordon King, a Tony Czak, or by far the worst of all…an Eric Marsh.
And until I am done pointing out what a liar and tool of corrupt management who sold her soul for undeserved promotion Shawna Legarza was and still is, I’m not stopping and I’m far from being done. Legarza is a very bad person because she was too damn dirty for too damn long to have changed.
USFS WF and by extension, all of the other WF in this world (because of the outsized influence that agency has on the WF community) deserve somebody who is at least honest to lead them.
I believe in doing the right thing and I paid for that conviction with my career. And so I especially resent that Legarza did the wrong thing when she was given the same choices and I was rewarded for her treason to the WF community.
And the reason I am so damn mad at Legarza right now is that I continue to be surprised at just how far her lies have permeated throughout the entire WF training and safety world.
The most recent and outrageous example I became aware of, is a WF training and safety film that blames the Mormon Lake Hotshots for their own deaths on the Battlement Creek Fire because they left their fire shelters in fire camp because they didn’t want to carry them.
Yes…we Coconino Hotshot Crews threw the fire shelters into the bushes and put our sack lunches or light jackets into those neat pouches because we weren’t issued anything to carry those things in back in the day (for years) and I don’t think day packs had been invented yet. Or at least our culture didn’t know about them or buy them.
Our first line gear packs were Vietnam era “Butt Pouches” that attached to the military web gear we were finally issued after several years and having a gallon hard plastic canteens beat everyone on the back of their heads for the entire shift because guys wore those like “water backpacks” using those thin nylon straps for shoulder straps that cut into their shoulders and could make them bleed while tucking their sack lunches in their shirts. It was a terrible system and so when guys saw those nice fire shelter pouches, they said to themselves, “We don’t need no stinkin’ fire shelters…but I sure can use this bitchin’ pouch.
Yeah…I know, we were pretty damn dumb, but that was how the WF world was back then…very low tech. Anyway…I digress again.
NO COCONINO NATIONAL FOREST HOTSHOT CREW (and I don’t believe any other hotshot crew was either outside of R-5) WERE TRAINED ON, ISSUED OR WERE REQUIRED TO CARRY FIRE SHELTERS UNTIL AFTER THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE OF 1976, EVEN THOUGH THE CHIEF OF THE FIREST SERVICE HAD ORDERED ALL USFS HOTSHOT CREWS TO BE TRAINED ON, ISSUED AND BE REQUIRED TO CARRY FIRE SHELTERS NATIONWIDE WHILE FIGHTING FIRE IN LIGHT FLASHY FUELS AFTER THE DEATHS OF THE 12 EL CARISO HOTSHOTS ON THE LOOP FIRE OF 1966.
And even R-5 wasn’t serious about it because it didn’t take a genius to see dozens if not hundreds of huge silver four pound (the first fire shelters were huge and very heavy) blocks of aluminum scattered all over the edges of fire camps and see hotshot crews on the fire line with either their sack lunches or jackets in their fire shelter pouches. The only guys who carried fire shelters used them like space blankets to roll up in on the fire line while spiking out so that in the morning it looked like the spike camp was filled with huge baked potatoes in tin foil.
And gee…I would say that Fuel Type X, which was frost killed Gamble oak brush up to 12 feet high qualifies as a “flashy fuel” when fires burning in it were known to run down and kill adult Mule deer. And I can tell where the Chief of the USFS @#$& up when he didn’t make the order an absolute until after the Battlement Creek Fire by allowing Regional and Forest Fire Officials an “out” by adding that narrow qualifier that dishonest officials then used to drive a truck through by saying after the fact, “Oh gee whiz, we didn’t know that fire was going to be burning in flashy fuels, so it wasn’t our fault!”
BLAME THE FIREFIGHTER…BLAME THE FIREFIGHTER…BLAME THE FIREFIGHTER…WHILE DISHONEST AND CORUPT FIRE MANAGERS LIKE LEGARZA ESCAPE BLAME AND GET PROMOTED. WHAT A @#$& UP WORLD WE LIVE IN!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44aLbVed9Ds
Starting at 47.44
P.S., Two former Happy Jack Hotshots and myself, both of whom went on to have great careers in the USFS, one of which was as a 30 year smokejumper who retired as a supervisor and the other was a forest helicopter manager where helicopters mean everything in SE Alaska AND DR. TED PUTNAM, told Legarza (in addition to probably other people) in no uncertain terms that she was perpetuating lies, but she did it anyway so she could stay on a career promotion fast track to the very top in a position she doesn’t deserve and earned by being a management tool of dishonesty and corruption…so sayeth I, Gary L. Olson. (That’s how we ended search warrant applications by swearing to the truth contained within the four corners of the document to federal judges under penalty of law.)
Oh…and one more thing. It is a LIE that has also permeated throughout the WF training and safety world that neither the Happy Jack or Mormon Lake Hotshots knew of the exact location or assignment of the other crew. This is a complete and total lie. Both crew bosses not only attended the same briefing were their specific assignments and locations were discussed in detail, they were sister crews from the same forest and their crew bosses carried radios with the same forest frequencies programmed into them and they communicated with each throughout the day as was a common practice at the time while the positions of each crew was very easily within line-of-sight and well within the abilities of the radios to reach the other one even without any repeaters. As a matter of fact, each crew could either look up or down the slope and see exactly where the other crew was working. These weren’t big distances we are talking about here.
And furthermore, not only didn’t ANY COCONINO HOTSHOT CREWS CARRY FIRE SHELTERS AT THE TIME, NO COCONINO HOTSHOT HAD BEEN TRAINED ON HOW TO DELPOY THEM UNTIL THE BEGINNING OF THE 1977 FIRE SEASON AND SINCE THE FIRE WAS UNDER THE MANAGEMENT OF THE BLM, NO FIRE SHELTERS WERE ISSUED OR USED BY THAT AGENCY AT THE TIME NATIONWIDE, SO THERE WERE NO FIRE SHELTERS ISSUED TO ANYONE ON THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE BY THE CONTROLLING AGENCY UNLIKE THE USFS R-5 (California) DID AT THE TIME SINCE NO BLM AGENCY POLICY EXISTED REGARDING FIRE SHELTERS UNTIL AFTER THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE WHEN THE USFS NOT ONLY REQUIRED ALL USFS FIRE FIGHTERS TO BE TRAINED ON, ISSUED AND REQUIRED TO CARRY FIRE SHELTERS, BUT THE USFS REQUIRED ALL OTHER AGENCY FIREFIGHTERS TO HAVE THE SAME TRAINING AND ALL OTHER AGENCIES TO HAVE THE SAME POLICY BEFORE THEIR FIREFIGHTERS WERE ALLOWED TO FIGHT FIRE ON ANY NATIONAL FOREST NATIONWIDE. The same change in policy was required for fire trousers after the Battlement Creek Fire because at that time, the only required was for WF to wear fire shirts.
THERE WERE NO FIRE SHELTERS ON THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE. NO FIREFIGHTERS HAD THEM AND NONE WERE IN FIRE CAMP IN SUPPLY.
THERE WERE NO FIRE SHELTERS ON THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE…PERIOD, BOTTOM LINE, END OF STORY, CASE CLOSED!
THAT FACT WAS EXPLAINED IN GREAT DETAIL BY SEVERAL PEOPLE WITH GREAT PASSION TO SHAWNA LEGARZA AND I HEARD HER SAY TO ME AND THE OTHERS TO OUR FACES, “I DON’T CARE.”
Coconino National Forest Fire Management Officer took a member of the Battlement Creek Fire Investigation Team, Robert Mutch, into his office and after closing the door, Bill Buck told Robert Mutch exactly why the Mormon Lake Hotshots were killed.
And that was because Crew Boss Tony Czak, took the well known Coconino National Forest Hotshot esprit de corps to the extreme with a “reckless spirit.”
Robert Mutch FAILED TO INCLUDE THIS INFORMATION IN THE BATTLEMENT CREEK FIRE, “ACCIDENT” INVESTIGATION, WHICH IS A FELONY VIOLATION OF FEDERAL LAW, 18 USC, 1001, BECAUSE THE LAW VIEWS THE “OMISSION” OF A MATERIAL FACT IN THE SAME EXACT WAY IT VIEWS A LIE…PERIOD…END OF STORY…FULL STOP.
ROBERT MUTCH IS AN UN INDICTED FEDERAL FELON and a WF Fire Safety Fraud and LIAR!
Oh…and just as a reminder, Bob Mutch didn’t have any idea who he was communicating with via email and he admitted all of that to ME in an email. And if you want a copy of it…contact me and I will be happy to provide you with the proof and evidence of Bob Mutch’s FEDERAL FELONY CRIME.
I’m okay now…I’m going to go get a massage or maybe take a cruise?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=1FkVXCCfg2A
Oh…and I used to eat corrupt BLM managers up for breakfast and shit them out by lunchtime doing internal investigations. So, you know…I got pretty good at it because it was a target rich environment.
But…I didn’t make very many friends. 😔
And this is really weird, and I hesitated to write anything, but if that’s not retired R-5 Director of Fire and Aviation and former Blue Ridge Hotshot Crew Boss Ed Hollenshead playing the Sector Boss in that stupid and fraudulent WF safety and training video on the Battlement Creek Fire, I will kiss your ass? A bunch of those other guys look familiar too.
Well..I guess I won’t actually kiss your ass, but I will be very surprised 😮
Right at 55:2o (and before that, but that’s a good shot)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=44aLbVed9Ds
Nope…that’s Ed, I just listened to the voice. I thought it could maybe be his doppelgänger, but that’s his voice, guaranteed. Pretty @#$&*% funny😂
It starts at 55:12. Ed and Tony Czak were very good friends and on the Flagstaff Hotshots together, I think they were squad bosses at the same time if I remember right and Ed had just gone to Czak’s wedding a short time before he was killed. His plays Sector Boss “Ridgeway” in the video, but they changed all of the names.
Just as a reminder, Ted Putnam was on that fire as a smokejumper-at-large and fill in fire team Sector Boss. They used smokejumpers a lot like that because almost all of them had great experience and Red Card quals, But there just wasn’t much call for them to jump fires.
If it wasn’t for the three most important things to the USFS, which are,
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
They would have eliminated the smokejumper program entirely decades ago. They were needed about the time of the Mann Gulch Fire until the Helicopter War in Vietnam during which helicopters became big, powerful, very safe (for the most part) very FAST and relatively INEXPENSIVE compared to the cost of smokejumpers. In other words, the smokejumper program has been an anachronism fir decades now. But because so many old time fire managers got their start during the years they went to college to get Forestry degrees, they won’t let it die. They just starve it to death every year because it costs so much money to operate.
And the only excuse anybody could think of to keep the entire smokejumper program disappeared with the advent of heli-rappelling.
https://www.fs.usda.gov/science-technology/fire/helitack
But…hells bells, even I would keep them if I was in charge just because they are you know…a big part of the USFS FIRE tradition.
Plus…they all look kinda cute in those get ups they wear. It’s like the top USFS FIRE managers have girls they can buy cute little outfits for and play dress up with, they just don’t fight very much fire.
Whoops,
“He plays Sector Boss “Ridgeway” in the video, but they changed all of the names TO PROTECT TYE GUILTY…I guess?”
WOW! This is really Gary unplugged today. I must be in a bitchy (non gender specific) mood!
It’s an insiders reference, but that is why the hotshot calls the smokejumpers, “Road Warriors” in this video that has been shown a couple of times. on this thread over the years.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOvM2u8l64
Oh… and one more thing. The creation of LOGGING roads almost everywhere in the west where engines can drive to most fires, or pretty darn close to them is the second thing that should have put smokejumpers out of business decades ago. Helicopters and engines did away with the need for smokejumpers back when I was fightin’ FIRE…decades ago,
With the possible exception of the BLM Smokejumpers in Alaska. There are still some vast roadless areas up there that smokejumpers in airplanes might be needed…maybe?
Gary’s rolling! OH, HELL YEAH!!!!!!!!!!
And the best example of that point I can think of…is on this page from my website that is down right now and has been for sometime, but some pages can still be found. So if you want to see courage and dedication in stop motion, go to thus page and scroll down to where my slurry bomber photos are.
Look closely at the first photo in the sequence. This is a photo I took of a slurry bomber dropping right on the edge of the Grand Canyon…BUT BELOW THE RIM. You can see the tail fin of the bomber sticking up from below, but that’s it. Now that…is Arizona Road Lizard CRAZY!
http://www.ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
And just FYI…the next three photos are ones I took while we were trying to pull back out of the way of the drop zone from a converted B-17 on the Battlement Creek Fire (it’s an old story, but it is worth repeating.
The first two photos are of the aborted drop as he flew right over us because he wasn’t lined up right. The third photo was taken a couple of seconds after the B-17 impacted and disappeared into a giant ball of fire on the ridge behind us as he was trying to turn around and come back to our position. I was watching him as he impacted and it took a little while (millisecond) for my brain to catch up with what my eyes were reporting to my brain since I initially thought he was dropping on a huge spot fire behind us he had found. But nope…he had lost an engine and he was jettisoning his load to try and clear the ridge. Air attack had just asked him for his airspeed and the last words he spoke were, “140.”
“Aircraft Accident – On Friday, July 16, 1 day before the crew accident, a B-26 air tanker crashed on a retardant dropping mission on the Battlement Creek fire. The accident occurred at 0856, approximately 1 mile south of the fire. The pilot was killed.” (Colorado Fire Camp)
“It was unrelated to the three fatalities, but the day before, on July 16, 1976, a B-26 air tanker working on the fire crashed about one mile south of the fire.” (Wildfire Today)
“On Friday, July 16th, a B-26 air tanker crashed on a retardant dropping mission on the Battlement Creek Fire.” (NWCG Toolbox Staff Ride)
“On Friday July 16th a B-26 air tanker crashed on a retardant dropping mission on the Battlement Creek Fire.” (Waymarking.com!)
“The fire escaped containment on the 15th, and grew to 500 acres on the 16th when the B-26 air tanker crashed.” (Always Remember)
“Although unrelated to’ the Mormon Lake crew fatalities, another death occurred on the Battlement Creek fire: when a B-26 air tanker
crashed and burned on July 16, killing the pilot.” (Internet Archive)
“Although unrelated to’ the Mormon Lake crew fatalities, another death occurred on the Battlement Creek fire: when a B-26 air tanker
crashed and burned on July 16, killing the pilot.” (SAIT-SAIR)
” B-26 (T56) Tanker pilot Don Goodman, controlled flight into terrain.”
(Wildland Fire / Aircraft Firefighter Fatalities in the United States 1955-1997)
“The previous day, a B-26 airtanker had crashed while dropping fire retardant, killing the pilot.” (AZ Daily Sun)
“That day a B-26 dropping retardant on the Battlement Creek Fire crashed on a nearby slope, killing the pilot and starting a second fire.” (Firefighting News)
“The Battlement Creek Fire killed five firefighters in Grand Valley (now Parachute), Colo., including the pilot of a B-26 air tanker .” (CBS News)
Converted B-17? Lies!
Me lies? B-26…B-17.? It’s been a lot of years since I read the report and I don’t really know much, if anything about airplanes in general or slurry bombers in particular.
The point is, it was an old converted military bomber. But I think almost all (if not all) of those have been done away with now because they were really old. I think I remember the USFS cracked down on those really old bombers after the airframe (I think) of one just came apart and broke up from the stress on a fire in California (I think) and I think it killed a crew of three who were all family members.
I don’t know what kind of planes they use now? But I think that VLAT is some kind of plane that is normally used as a passenger plane? The point is…VLATS are really big and fairly new and I do think I know those little planes that are normally used as crop dusters are probably more or less new planes and are probably pretty safe?
But one of those planes is really big and one of them is really small…in terms of payloads or gallons of slurry carried. I don’t have any idea what has filled that huge gap between those two kinds of slurry bombers. But I bet RTS does?
Yep…I remembered that story fairly accurately. And I do think the crew of three were all family members although this story doesn’t say that.
https://billingsgazette.com/news/local/five-airtankers-linked-to-same-wyoming-company-lose-wings-in/article_6f9581d2-d11c-5f29-b31f-8224631ed65d.html
My comment (United States Fire Administration (USFA) is a Fema project that keeps statistics on Fire deaths, causes and the like. On its site is a place you can go to DATA then type in the last name of a fire fighter to obtain the incident report regarding the death. Included was, Yarnell, Arizona, 2013. Yet nothing comes up under those names.
I type in Marsh and Steed and I got nothing. But for 2018 it is interesting that 82 died while on duty, 33 died from heart attack–)
Insert by Charlie: below is the copy paste from the USFA site concerning 2013 fire fighter deaths:
Of the 106 firefighters who died while on-duty in 2013, 103 were male and three were female.Multiple Firefighter Fatality IncidentsThe 106 deaths in 2013 resulted from a total of 76 fatal incidents including four multiple firefighter fatality incidents killing 34 firefighters. Three of the four mul-tiple fatality incidents were in the state of Texas (Bryan — 2; West — 9; Houston — 4), and one, taking 19 wildland firefighters’ lives, was in the state of Arizona.Table 1. Multiple Firefighter Fatality IncidentsYearNumber of IncidentsTotal Number of Deaths 2013434201241020113620104820096132008518200772120066172005410200436Wildland Firefighting Deaths In 2013, 31 firefighters were killed during activities involving brush, grass or wildland firefighting, includ-ing 19 lost in one multiple fatality incident in Arizona (Yarnell Hill fire). Another five firefighters died from heart attacks or strokes, two were killed in motor ve-hicle accidents, four were struck by objects (including falling trees), and one died from injuries sustained in a fall. This total includes part-time and seasonal wildland firefighters, full-time wildland firefighters, and munic-ipal or volunteer firefighters whose deaths are related to a wildland fire (Figure 4).While there were many factors related to the very high number of wildland firefighter deaths in 2013 — the second highest annual total in 25 years (36 firefighter deaths related to wildland firefighting in 1994) — im-provements to accountability and emergency commu-nications were among recommendations from wild-land fire experts in after action reports and articles.As relevant safety and operational enhancements to future operations are being considered by the wildland community as a whole, those same emergency com-munications protocols and adequate personnel recov-ery system considerations have broad applicability to all-hazards response planning and operations
Comment–that site has some very good information–looking at 33 heart attack deaths by fire fighters for 2018 and high incidence of heart attack even while on duty gives us an idea of how the chemicals are affecting fire fighters health. Heart attack is what got me after the Yarnell dumps, but I am a survivor, there were about 200 people of Yarnell that did not survive the toxic retardant dumps.
I can remember that right behind the in town restaurant was a tank for sale–and I asked a man standing nearby who owned it. He said relatives were selling it, the man in the residence had just died of a heart attack. It was a common thing to hear of the deaths–and then I had my own. It was like living in Yarnell was like being in Chernobyl, yet no one in Yarnell was being warned of the reasons for the many deaths.
I wonder if the Federal Man keeping track of the Yarnell Fire Retardant dumps was also planning to keep track of the aftermath of deaths at Yarnell. Or were the 19 GMHS deaths the only important incidents to acknowledge at Yarnell?
Joy would likely know the name of that fellow that had just died of a heart attack–she was there that day. Joy had said after she took off my life support and I woke up that I was fortunate–that week I was under life support 9 had been hospitalized that week for heart attacks–I was the only survivor.
Being dead was not bad, but waking up was not so good that time. The other close brushes with finality have me believe it is a good thing to hang around as long as you can if you can bear the pain and the sadness of it all.
There are so many issues that humans do not want to face–and we are the damnedest war like people —-but that is the world over. According to your elite astronauts, many of the highest ranking Military retired officers, and others we have shot and killed a few aliens. We have the technology to bring down some of the space craft.
But they also say we have the technology to produce zero point energy that would ween us from oil. This comes from the mouths of men like former head of the Lockheed Skunkworks to say “it is time to end all secrecy on this as it no longer poses a national security threat, and make the technology available in the private sector”. Colonel Philip Corso for years had for years spread out alien technology to the big operators such as Lockheed Martin, Boeing, GE, and so forth to develope under Military Secret advancements for defense technology not available to the general public. And even Mikhail Gorbachev stated “a The phenomenon of UFO’s does exist, and it must be treated very seriously”.
The secrecy of technological advances to get us off oil and polluting the planet operations is a shame and it involves destruction of humanity and polluting of the planet that one day will not be reversible. It is the same secrecy that has killed so many at Yarnell including the 19 GMHS and the many from the retardant toxins.
A few want to hold power at any cost, and that cost has been the lives of many. It is time we get the truth so that the health of the planet is restored and the billions on the planet are benefited and not just a few principle-less and narcissistic individuals in the 1% that hold the wealth of nations while 30,000 children die daily from starvation and illness.
There is much information out there-but the good stuff is being held secret by the control freaks.
Sonny
I am in travel mode
Look under MASH not MARSH
I learned the long tough road that Marsh was hidden behind Zuni HS files too so they are there just waste years of your life going thru each paper.
Sonny,
I’m not ignoring your comments about slurry because I disagree with you, I just don’t know anything about it and so I’m not qualified to even pontificate about the ills of slurry. I’m pretty sure it can’t be good for people, animals, fish, or the environment in general, I just don’t have any idea just of how bad it is?
I wrote years ago that I never saw any good come from it. I never once was fighting a fire and either said or even thought to myself, “Well…thank goodness that slurry bomber showed up when it did and made that drop because without it, we would have had a serious problem to deal with.” If we had a serious problem to deal with before the slurry bomber showed up, we still had the same problem after it left.
I do know I didn’t like getting dropped on because it smells like manure and it made me chaff after it dried out on my clothes and I hated to chaff. I always carried an extra set of fire clothes in my frame pack because I was supposed to, but I never changed out of the set I showed up in because I think it would have been bad luck…maybe? I did change my panties and my socks though because you know…I hated to chaff. And talk about Monkey Funky Butt…don’t even get me started on that!
I do feel really bad every time a bomber augers in though. They used to say we lost 1 a year on the average and those are some pretty high odds of dying on the job. I don’t know how true that is? It also seemed like they were a lot of family operations involved in the business, so when one went in, it was often all family members who were killed, or at least in-laws.
I also wrote years ago that surely, (and don’t call me Shirley) they must do some good? As I have stated many times, my perspective on fires was very narrow and limited in scope and I focused on what was my job was on the line, or later my squads job and crew job in our sector. I didn’t care much about anything beyond my assigned tasks.
So…I assume air attack, the line boss or maybe the fire boss could see some advantages of using it well flying around evaluating the big picture? If not…it is just one big welfare program for the companies who own the bombers and the big chemical companies like Monsanto who I think used to make most of the slurry? I do know that those who make money from it have very powerful lobbies who contribute to the politicians from both sides of the aisle in Washington, so nothing is going to change.
They aren’t going to stop using it even if you are right about everything and I am right it doesn’t do any good. Although I hope I’m wrong about that because if I’m right…there have been a lot of needless bomber crew deaths for absolutely nothing. including the most recent three American deaths in Australia.
We all have kinda developed our own pet peeves over the years and we all have our favorite bones to chew on, it’s just that the use of slurry isn’t one of mine. I already have to many things I care about that I can do absolutely nothing about or make any difference in changing or making better except to make myself feel better in the very short term by bitching (non gender specific) a lot.
And yes RTS…I know, I know. That should be “chafe” not “chaff.”
Oh…and one more thing. Nobody changed their fire clothes because nothing draws more ridicule on a hot shot crew than clean fire clothes. The difference between the average hot shot and the hard core hot shot wasn’t whether you changed fire clothes or not, it was whether you ever changed your underwear or not?
Which of course reminds me of a fire story that I have probably told before, but we are coming up on a decade now, so if I have, just fast forward. Although some people have said that my stories get better every time I tell them, so…
Anyway, we were on this big ole fire one time, I don’t remember the fire, but I remember the year (1980) because it was the first year of the guy who is the subject of the story.
So we usually only pulled one really long shift that I have written about, with one or two follow up line shifts, and then a couple of shifts mopping up while the overhead tried to figure out if either we had caught the fire or the weather had changed and was going to hold before they released the hotshot to either go to another fire or home so they could be ready to go out again while other crews stayed to mop up for weeks or even months…sometimes.
But on this particular fire, we had been there for a long time and the overhead had asked me the day before if I wanted to take the crew on R&R to a nearby town to do laundry. I had never been asked if I wanted to go on R&R before, (nor had we ever had R&R before) so I didn’t know how to respond. I just told them I would think about it and get back to them.
So they started yelling over the constant noise of the huge industrial diesel generators that it was time to wake up at zero dark thirty since we had day shift and I sat up in my paper sleeping bag while I looked for my frozen Whites in the dark because there was frost on the pumpkin cause we were up high in the mountains…someplace. But it wasn’t our home state (Arizona) I do remember that. Although it was always cold at night, even in the desert if you were working and sweating and then stopped for a few minutes, I was always cold because you just can’t carry enough gear to stay warm on the line and still be able to swing a tool for hours on end.
And this new guy…I will call him Joe to protect the innocent, was sitting up in his bag next to me in the dark. He an older guy who already had earned a lot of respect on the crew and I thought he would be representative of the other crew members. So I said to him, “Hey Joe…the overhead asked me if we want to go on R&R to do laundry? How are you doing on underwear…do you need R&R to do laundry? Joe immediately said, “Well…I’m wearing a pair now and I still have a clean pair in my pack…so nope, I’m good.” Now that…is the very definition of a hard core hotshot.
So I told the overhead later that day, “Nope…the Happy Jack Hotshots don’t need no stinkin’ R&R.” Thereby keeping my 10 year hit shot record of never going on R&R intact. “
I didn’t need R&R going out for coordination assignments, because you know…we fought fires while staying in nice motels. I always suspected that there were firefighters and then there were “firefighters.” And sure enough…there were two separate and completely different worlds and classes of firefighters. It is definitely a caste system. And hotshots are the untouchables right along with all of the lesser hand crews.
Gary, That clothes thing would be for miners as well. You could always tell a new man by his clean outfit. We had our diggers and generally they could be stood in the corner for the next days work. We should have washed our uranium mining diggers daily, but maybe not since we were in the thick of radiation anyway. Well if he was a miner, it would not be clean for long–but if he came tramping into a mine, his miners hat would be well scuffed and his wet suit looking like the one your dad had in his mining photo.. But the only guy that came out of a mine hole clean was the honey dipper and the shifter–they had clean jobs.
And I doubt any man worth his beans would be clean if he were doing line. When Joy and I only hiked through that soot and chemical retardant, we during the early hikes came back looking if we belonged to the black race. I sometimes say I am half black since my Mother’s name was Black and I am of Black Irishl descent. Thats a lot of black but you don’t like to add the soot black especially when you know the chemicals added from retardant.
It is a wonder so little attention to detail is given to the safety and health of the wild land fire fighter. They surely could use some type of Union and Leader that would represent the people working the fires. These men are failed in finantial compensation for their work, in health issues, and safety concerns for certain. This would be a different story had they good representation–Yarnell would bring on the big guns–and in fact would have never happened had they been properly represented all along. If there is such an organization to address these issues they are faintly heard and very weak indeed. Otherwise, this ordeal and the issues that killed the men would be front page news and protesters shaking up the responsible irresponsible parties.
Sometimes it is a wonder looking at the human species. Collectively we killed 50 million people during WW2. We go at each others throats one day –the Japanese and Vietnamese, etc and the next day they are our great friends living and thriving among us until the next war. Right now its the Arabs that we want the oil from and keep killing them off by the millions for that oil.
What does not make good sense to most of us makes great dollars and sense to the ones involved in the melee of things. Well they personally do not sacrifice–how many Presidents, politicians and top Generals are at the head of the pack in a charge? And how many bankers, arms dealers, oil barons, corporation heads are out there doing anything but directing traffic so they keep their coffers full. Even the religious pillars seem to agree with the war situation. Oddly I prefer the martyr type religions that want to kill all infadels remain on their desert desolation and enjoy their camel rides and bull shitting Imams. We have enough of our own religious societies–a few hundred or so but generally, they are now at peace–although they might call out the forces if they feel threatened.
And what about alien visitations–not the ones that Trump hates–but those from outer space., They are in worse danger than the Trump aliens–orders are to shoot them down. According to some high officials we were successful in a few but in the main generally have not been successful, having lost a number of pilots and if you can believe the Iranian pilot and others if you try it your whole electrical system goes hay wire and your are fortunate to regain control. I mean what do you do as an airline pilot and one of these things circles your plane for half an hour–or so then darts off like your jet is standing still.
It is fun to see that after the nuclear physicist spent two years attempting to get CIA documents that were over 25 years old about UFO information he got a one page letter back saying they would not release. Several law suits, one judge decides that a ten page explanation from CIA as to why they would not was enough. The next set of Judges concurred and finally the Supreme court did not even allow it ear. Clinton changed things and still there was a delay until finally they did release the documents. Blacked out on each page except for about 8 words per page and finally one with only four words. Then the NSA FOIA request met with the same thing only they used white out for their documents. Stanton was holding up the blacked out documents and it is supposed white out documents are not so ugly.
But the Yarnell FOIA investigations have done some better? I will leave that to RTS and Joy to answer and even John Daugherty–they have had their trials and tribulations attempting to get FOIA information that by law should have an answer withing 10 days or a good excuse why not.
So what is the government trying to hide in all these black and white out situations? Is there something that the people they represent should not know? Might there after all be alien visitations, actual abductions, captured and dead bodies of alien life and even back engineered alien technology that has advanced us from only a bit over a hundred years ago to the first flight to waling on the moon in the 60’s.
We have had some advanced technology that Colonel Corso says was stuff like fiber optics, lasers, etc. farmed out so companies could back engineer and take credit for–even patent and profit from. Is Corso a liar and many of his friends of high standing, even astronauts a pack of liars making all this shit up to aggrandize themselves and profit? I would hardly think so since one has to believe a man such as an astronaut already has more attention than he wants and enough money to afford whatever his heart might desire material wise.
I do wonder how it would change people if they knew there are alien visitations of physical beings that have been shot and killed but have technology that we can not even understand. Maybe some of them are like the lion tamer–willing to get into a cage with a Tiger or Lion but sometimes eaten alive. As a group we are a violent and dangerous species–most especially to something that we do not recognize or understand.
In a way I do think we are a prison planet–an anomaly to the real beings of the Universe that are not of a violent nature. But I realize we can not know the mind of Al and intelligence is not always congruent with kindness.
But for the powers that have the facts and redact them we hold them in contempt. They owe the public that pays the taxes and hard earned money to keep these people in office and fine linen to reveal to us the unredacted truth. We can handle it but they may not.
Gary thanks for the comment. There is a reason that stuff chaffs the skin and a reason the extra ingredients are kept secret. There is motive to keep the retardant dumps as excessive as possible and even as colorful as possible–they make good public spectacles and public minds believe this stuff is the miracle that stops forest fires. Anything that causes a reaction on the skin is dangerous.
But it does not take an expert to look on line at the photos of dead fish just from the main ingredient–phosphates and to see that EPA is spending hundreds of millions of tax payer dollars to do clean ups just of a few phosphate mines.
The wild land fire fighter and the city fire fighter are well proven victims of the chemicals. Yet they are so brainwashed that these chemicals are harmless. Again you only have to look at FEMA’s own statistics to realize the fire fighter is being health damaged in a big way. That many heart attack is way off the norm of the regular population–yet nothing is said about COPD, cancer and other issues related to the retardant.
I know that fire fighting is your love–we both loved the things we did–it is hard to believe I preferred wading in mud and driving drift and the hard labor of mining when I could have been sitting behind a desk in an air conditioned office pushing a pencil. I could do either, yet I followed the example and path of my Dad–a hard working old miner who never took a day off.
Yet the fire fighter does not deserve for his hard work to be lied to. He should be informed of every chemical in that slop and what it will eventually do to his health. He should be amply compensated for that exposure.
Most of us as we were employed had little time to investigate such things as retardant chemistry. As a miner, I believed the bosses and beside I had five mouths to feed and house beside my own. Of course hind sight is always a lesson–and in my case doing the office work and going to the gym as my son does for exercise would have kept me from the thing I dread–seeing a doctor, like I will in the morning for another cancer removal–Mohs Surgery.
So I would like to see these multi billion dollar enterprises furnish some of those billions toward the fire fighter for his sacrifice of health. Where are the good representatives of the people that will go after them. The proof in statistics is there, and when you see a wild land fire fighter that can barely breath or walk across a parking lot because the retardant toxins have ruined his health where is our representative?
Then the dead fish, the dead zones of ocean and the many dead civilians that were exposed to the retardant dumps speak loudly –who will listen?
😞
Yes yet there is H O P E in a hopeless slurry drop driven world
Consult with your doc first yet I find having Indian root and fresh garlic and ginger ..cinnamon, turmeric, and chia seeds an excellent tool in my toolbox for both internal and external benefits especially the intake of ginger as natural insect repellant and natural sunscreen and helps inflammation with arduous work and help protect the lungs from smoke and environmental hazards and retardants.
I learned all my tools from old miners and if Sonny is still alive because God allowed him to be then I think either that works or maybe he was abducted and we now see an “alien” version of Sonny. 👽
Joy I have been taking frankensense oil and orange oil with blackstrap molasses. That cancer had shrunk and the doctor said my that is not as big as I was expecting. Who knows, but the chemical therapy does not work so well with doctors themselves often saying it is something they would not take–though they say it delays the onset.
A lot of it is in the mind, but not altogether–there are some good home remedies out there but ask your doctor before you take frankensense or orange oil and molasses. I did not since I already know the answer–but in my case that dermatologist said sounds good. They know I am on that tight wire so I am allowed some lee way.
This is why I’ve always had a serious problem with the assumption of GM somehow being killed because of some crewmembers prior military service. It is and always has been a weak and false argument. The TRUTH is that Jesse Steed, a former Marine, had his head screwed on straight, was a respected leader, and treated his subordinates with respect and compassion. A civilian crew boss was the one with a chip on his shoulder, was constantly out to prove something and “one up” others, and ruled with an iron fist.
The position of prior Marine Corps service contributing to the death of GMIHC has always been a false assumption. A good man and former Marine tried to save them from a civilian trying to kill them. This is why I have pleaded with RTS to remove the incorrect assumptions from his published work in this regard.
Woodsman
In other words, the strictly following orders creed of GM came from civilians in this case. Nobody blindly followed orders because of prior military service of a few of members of the crew. If anyone “went along to get along” it was because they didn’t want to suffer the wrath of their crewboss with personality problems. Full stop.
Woodsman,
And I disagree with everything RTS has written and linked to on this topic as well and always have and I disagree with about half of what you wrote. It’s an odd coincidence, but the half that I disagree with is the subject I have been working on for a couple of days now, but I haven’t been able to put my thoughts on the subject into coherent paragraphs.
The half of what you wrote that I agree with is that a former Marine, although they say there is no such thing as a former Marine, along with the other two Marines on the crew and the military culture didn’t kill the crew or play any role in the death the crew….IMHO.
Who I think killed the crew wasn’t a civilian with a chip on his shoulder either that was so big it influenced everything he did, it was a HOTSHOT with a chip on his shoulder that it influenced everything he did that killed the crew.
And that is what I have been trying to explain for a couple of days now…the hotshot culture that was the underlying primary factor that caused such an event to occur. Most people probably don’t know this, but I am trying to write a book about the WF culture in general and the hotshot culture in particular, but I am.
And what brought this subject to the forefront of my mind recently, was my retelling of the Santa Fe Hotshot experience on the Scott Fire with a lot of additional details,
And that is because if you take what I have written about my hotshot philosophy about managing a hotshot crew and what I have written about the Santa Fe Hotshots and look at all of those through lines, everything I did on the Scott Fire was appropriate, within my lane and wheelhouse and was fully consistent with my on going claim that a main reason I loved being a hotshot and a WF in general was because I like rules, structure, and discipline, which are all critical elements of the WF culture and are at the heart of the hotshot ethos. (Mother of a run on sentence, which I am infamous for)
I like being in a box and coloring inside the lines although I am capable of thinking outside the box and therefore I was able in my career to reconfigure the box I was in, but only after getting the necessary approvals to do so, thereby changing my situation, but doing so by still coloring within the lines. But enough about me, I want to specifically point to what the Santa Fe Hotshots did on the Scott Fire that was wrong.
After I was “relieved of my command”, which I don’t think that Fire Boss had the authority to do by the way, so he was also WRONG when he did that. The only one who had the authority to remove me as the crew supervisor was my supervisor, Espanola District FMO, Orlando Romero. I believe that the Fire Boss had the authority to remove the crew from the fire and send us home, but only as a crew. I should have demanded that he call my supervisor in order to make that happen. But I was so surprised by what was happening, my brain never caught up with the events as they quickly unfolded. Which is something Orlando would never had agreed to do, he would have said if you have a problem with Gary running MY crew, send them all home to me to deal with, but Gary stays in charge until they get here and I can sort this out.
But that is beside the point, the point is that after I was relieved of my command, the Santa Fe Hotshot crew chain of command was still intact and fully capable of functioning without me just as they would have been had I been removed by either being seriously hurt or killed.
There was a highly capable Assistant Supt. who had helped me build the crew from nothing and had been my assistant for the entire time I had been the Happy Jack Crew Boss. Bill has even been my swampier when I was the Happy Jack Second Sawyer and then he became the Sawyer when I was put in charge of Squad 2. In addition to Bill being on that bus, there was the second Squad Boss, who was also capable of running the crew had Bill and I both been incapacitated, in addition to all of the Senior Crewman.
The two incidents should have been separate events that were unrelated. I got into it over a crew policy or tactical decision and that was whether to spend at least another hour unloading, unpacking our packs, taking showers, repacking our packs and then reloading them back up on the chase truck they were on rather that using that hour for some desperately needed sleep,
And then the crew pelted the Division Boss with whatever they could get their hands on while telling him what they thought of both him and him mother. And then they got kicked off the fire.
But everything that they did was wrong and without any credible justification. A Fire Boss and Line Boss yelling at me wasn’t reasonable justification for them to turn into a violent and uncontrolled mob instead of a highly trained and disciplined hotshot crew…right?
But yet I never chastised them for their actions or ever even mentioned it them (but I also didn’t say ‘Great Job”) And had they not done what they did, it would have shown our world that the crew didn’t respect and support me as their leader and I should have been finished as a crew boss at that point because I didn’t have the love of my crew.
That is why I wrote years ago that I could tell that Marsh didn’t have the love, respect or support of his crew, if he ever had it, from that few second video clip on up the ridge while he was having that conversation with Steed and the crew member (Garret Zuppiger?) spat on the ground in disgust. He didn’t spit because he needed to get rid of excess saliva in his mouth, he spat in disgust in front of Steed and the rest of the crew to show his open disgust and dislike of Marsh.
That video shows that Captain Steed had the love, resect and support of the crew. It also revealed that Captain Steed was disgusted by Marsh and didn’t respect him because everyone showed their disgust for Marsh on their faces in front on Steed, which means that tte crew also knew Steed didn’t respect or support Marsh.
But back to my Santa Fe Hotshot story, NO ONE in the USFS ever held the Santa Fe Hotshots to account for what they did or ever even mentioned it. I took full responsibility for everything that happened in all subsequent discussions and investigations and I was the one who was investigated for insubordination. And nobody ever said…yes, but what about what the crew did? There was no excuse for what they or my assistant did. He should have immediately taken command of the crew.
And none of that ever occurred to me until a few days ago because none of it registered as a problem in my mind. The only reason it occurred to me now, is because after I wrote that story for a second time, I read it like some outsider like WTKTT would read it and it wouldn’t make any sense because what the crew did was completely out of line.
But the reason they did what they did, is because of the Hotshot Culture and they actually did what the USFS not only APPROVED of, but the USFS FIRE culture EXPECTED and even demanded that they do and that is SUPPORT their crew boss as a crew during a traumatic event.
Now…none of that was said openly, everyone…and I mean everyone including me, just pretended that the uncontrolled mob episode the crew engaged in…didn’t even happen. It was a non event. That is the Hotshot Culture That is what was a primary cause of the death of the crew.
In addition to of course a highly unstable and vindictive crew boss who would have taken away the health insurance from Captain Steeds family and ruined his chances of going to the floor (as they say) because the highly unstable and vindictive Marsh would have ferociously attacked Captain Steed in his fury at Steeds refusal to lead the crew out of the safe black and down the death chute by following his flagging to their horrible deaths, just as he did to another Assistant Crew Boss Over the bogus credit card point episode.
And none of that is going to make DND’s PTSI any better and in fact, it may make it much worse and for that I am truly sorry. The things that DND has recently written that are now being highlighted by WTKTT and the Woodsman are the single most important and revealing things that have ever been written on this thread. But they are also the most gut wrenching and saddest things that have ever been written on this thread.
And I am at a loss for enough of the right things to say right now that can possibly make the situation any less painful for DND and for the rest of us.
But to sum up. and as I have written before, the hotshot culture in no more the military culture than the military culture is the hotshot culture in spite of their many similarities. The hotshot culture is unique in this world and is very powerful and dominating force to those who live it.
The hotshot culture was powerful and dominating enough force to make the crew do something that all of them knew was extremely dangerous and something they had been taught to never, ever do. That fact is evidenced by what (I think) Roxanne Warneke told a reporter (I think) about what Billy (I think) told her while they were deer hunting in a steep brush filled canyon. And that was they were taught to never, ever go into such places because they were death traps that killed firefighters. But then he did it anyway because of the hotshot culture…IMHO.
The crew trusted, supported, believed in and counted on Captain Steed to pull off their insane maneuver that they all knew was potentially deadly because he was their Champion, the best of best…of the best. And as I have written before, Jesse Steed was the hotshot I always wanted to be, but was to deeply flawed as a person to ever achieve as I still am.
And almost none of what I just wrote is what I have been trying to write the last couple of days, but I guess it will have to do until I can figure out how to write it in a more coherent way.
And once again, I deeply regret the pain my words may cause anyone who reads them. I would like nothing more than to make the situation better, but I can’t. But we have a chance to make things better for the next hotshot crew that is in danger right now, or will be in the future during the next hotshot burn over that is sure to happen. And that is because once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times is a pattern..
Thanks, Gary. I too regret any additional pain my opinions may cause but just the same, it’s very important to hash this out. I shouldn’t have used the term “civilian.” What I meant was not a military veteran.
I do not possess the unique insightfulness that you and others do about hotshot culture, at least not internally as a member. Thank you for corrections and greatly expounding on the themes I’m trying to illustrate.
Woodsman
Gary, I believe you make some very valid points and surmises what Joy had told me by reading the FOIA reports that she had concluded as well. She said from the reports that Marsh was not looking so well and was likely to be replaced by Steed–I believe Marsh must have known that Steed was outshining him in every way–the one that had all the abilities to manage the crew that Marsh could not muster. Joy pointed out the evaluation reports that Marsh received were not what one would expect to advance, yet Steed was getting A+ in his evaluation sheets and undoubtedly deserved.
A study of government and how it works is quite an eyeopener–something the ordinary bloke would not pay attention to. Something that Gary, RTS, Woodsman and those that are in the thick of things are quite familiar with I am certain. It has much to do with the way things happen and the whys of investigations that are slanted. But then what can one expect when government investigates itself.
Daniel Sheehan is an attorney–not just any attorney but with connections and credentials and experiences most attorneys would admire. He was an associate with Floyd Adams in the First Amendment Division, represented NY Times, defense attorney in the NY Times Pentagon Papers case, one of the trial lawyers in F. Lee Bailey’s off representing James McCord in the Watergate burglary case, chief counsel in the Karen Silkworth case, and served as Chief Counsel for the United States Jesuit Headquarters in Washington D.C. working under Father Arrupe, Father General from Rome from 1975-1985.
This guy would have the equivalency experience and connections of the top wild land fire fighter bosses in the business. He would know his way around the system like he would know the back of his hand.
President Carter, as many know, had with many other witnesses seen a UFO–a situation he made an official report on since it was a huge object glowing red about the size of a football field as he described it. So when he became President, he wanted to know about the UFO situation and had promised others that he would get to the bottom of the truth once he became President.
Well you would think a President would have unlimited access to any information regarding UFO activity–after all he is the Commander in Chief of the Military and anything regarding defense of this nations should be immediately available to him.
Well, not so. When he told the then in place acting Director of the Central Intelligence Agency, George Bush, Sr., he wanted access to UFO files, Bush refused. Bush said you will have to go to Congress’s Director of the Science and Technology Division of the Congressional Research Service of the House of the United States Congressiional Library to go thought the process of getting access to any classified documents relating to UFO. He told Carter, you will not get them under my watch.
Obviously we have a government withing a government and even President’s can not access it. But Carter was not deterred–he did just that.
Attorney Sheehan was called in April because Carter also wanted to know what files the Vatican had on UFO documentation. Because Sheehan was representing the Vatican, he went to the best source to ask that permission and that was through the Jesuit Director of the National Social Ministry Office to cosign a letter requesting a review of documents on UFO’s that the Vatican Library would have. The Vatican flat out, like George Bush, Sr. refused to allow anyone to see their records. And the man that requested these was the Friar and Director over all 10 Jesuit districts in the United States. Sheehan and the Friar were shocked at that response.
But the President was allowed though the cannels to get Sheehan to see the highly classified portion of the Project Blue Book that are not allowed to public view. He would be given only a brief amount of time to view files under guard supervision. Two men with ear plugs were waiting for Sheehan and escorted him to the files informing him he was only allowed one hour and no notes could be taken. He counted 16-20 good sized boxes containing files.
One box that had Top Secret on it he thought would be a good start and with limited time he thought to best look for photos. A microfiche and there he saw what he had never seen before–A crashed UFO he described as a winter scene with men measuring it–a big trench mark where the UFO had slid into an embankment. There was a dome on top and markings about the craft. Sheehan was able to trace some of the markings off the microfiche projection.
So you see the experience of even a President to get to something such as a UFO file. And if you believe Sheehan, and I am certain Carter did, the we might understand why something as benign as UFO reports are Top Secret and why the Vatican will not even allow the top Jesuit Friar have a look at the Vatican files on UFO’s. Truth can perhaps undermine someones coveted power position.
Media can not control how you think but they can control what you think about. And so when you enjoy the news at night looking at Trump’s silly ramblinhis impeachment attacks, a murder or two, or some loco kicking ass at a ball game, and the scores of who won against the Fighting Irish, then you can set back assured by the anchor that all is well.
Then you understand it is no wonder the situation at Yarnell could be distorted with few to notice.
I BELIEVE! (In UFO’s) Look closely at the interlocking blocks of andisite at Puma Punku. A single slab of which weighs 131 tons. We couldn’t quarry and cut andicite today without highly advanced power diamond saws and drills much less move a single slab of stone from a quarry a long ways away and lift it into place without really big construction cranes.
So…beam me up! Except after everything that happened to RTS when he was probed and impregnated during his visit the Pleiades, otherwise known as the Seven Sisters or Messier 45. NO PROBING! I’m still a virgin…unlike RTS.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pumapunku
Oh…and one more thing. I did get called out to meet several other law enforcement officers from several agencies to look at one dead cow 🐄 (because it was on Public Lands).
And I didn’t know much about looking at dead cows, but that thing looked like it had its sex organs etc. cut out by a skilled surgeon using a scalpel. OR A LASER BEAM. The condition that cow was in was…inexplicable, considering the circumstances under which it was found in and where it was at.
That was in New Mexico, not far from a place that is well known for an alleged UFO event (not Roswell). It was you know…kinda creepy. So they can look…but definitely no touching or probing! Plus…I have to be back in time for dinner, so maybe they had better just go with RTS again after all?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztec,_New_Mexico,_UFO_incident
I mean…I just wish they would have had something like this back in my day! Know what I mean?
https://www.antimonkeybutt.com/
You may think 🤔 this is a frivolous matter, but I can assure you it is not!
Who is Anti Monkey 🐒 Butt powder for?
https://www.antimonkeybutt.com/who-its-for/
…dedicated to maximizing the performance and comfort for people who work hard and play hard – sports enthusiasts, tough job workers, FIREFIGHTERS [Especially WILDLAND FIREFIGHTERS], first responders, motorsport enthusiasts, athletes of all types, chicks who hate chafing, and even babies.
I mean…this is really getting down into the weeds, but no detail about being a hotshot is to minor for me to pontificate about.
Yes, NM has gotten so many visitations–but we keep nukes housed here–well the bomb was exploded near enough to Roswell and Roswell at the time of the crash in 1957 the elite nuclear bomb group was stationed at Roswell. That air field is now abandoned and I used to haul wood by there when I was doing that for a living. Those huge hangers are still there but supposedly abandoned–Yet when I was going by there there were hoards of military vehicles inside those fences–they looked to be a mix of German and Russian and American–certainly many were not ours and when I would stop at a cafe there would be military men inside speaking foreign languages. So I suppose it was being used for some sort of NATO training area.
I have always doubted these things, but I know what I saw and what did happen. And when I saw that cow sout of me with its face cut away like a laser had been at work, and yet not coyotes or animals would come near it I had to go back and photograph that thing. It had been obviously dropped from some craft during a rainy time since there was mud around it pushed up like when you drop a big rock in a mud area. It has also slid forward about 3 or 4 ft so whatever dropped it had been in a bit of a motion when it hit the mud.
I had seen this with my pit bull dog Leroy–a cut out below his neck and centered on his chest a perfect circle as if someone removed a silver dollar size or a bit smaller chunk of hide somehow leaving the raw tissue exposed, yet no blood or anything–You would have had to stun Leroy somehow to get at that area if you did not want to loose an arm.
That was an area that Joy had taken some UFO photos–one was a mother ship with small craft about it, the other a craft with a green laser coming off it. But I wondered why they did not have better things to do than making holes in Leroy.
It is some a mystery–and I suppose we are an experiment of some sort, but whatever the government has about them, they certainly want it blacked out to the public.
Gary and Woodsman,
I have waited YEARS to here what both of you have said. Believe it or not a lot of beautiful occurrences have happens that have healed most of the wounds I thought would haunt me for life. When Jess told me in the mid 90’s(while on leave that he was going to be a Hotshot, I saw this mentally and physically strong man leading people who respected him and loved him.
I could just see it you know, way before it came to pass, it made me smile. When Jess was done with his Marine time he was ready to start life. He always held onto traditions from his service but hey easily could separate duty to country a and “Duty to act” as a new civil servant. All of the veterans I have worked for and with clearly delineate the importance or decision making while one fires and off. I don’t believe that Jess followed orders as a Marine, I believe he knew multiple people would cause more problems for him “And his crew”.
There are know recordings from FF’s on the YHF that clearly heard an intense argument that finished with accusations and expletives confirming thus was the worst order based upon terrible SA and the inability of EM process words, visuals and voices. I hope that the audio is played for all as all deserve to know. The more FOIA’s come out the closer the truth comes for the briefing that should’ve occurred 7 years ago. Thank you guys, Gary, write the book please.
DownhillIndirect
God bless you, Downhillndirect. That was not easy for me to write knowing full well it’s potential impact on you personally. My hunch was correct (thankfully), not only are you strong enough, you need to hit this head on & get it out. If I get any of my puzzle pieces wrong or need more context, please let me know.
As Gary says, God Bless America!!!
Woodsman
And I say…God bless you both and all of our wildland firefighters!! And thank you DND, I struggle with that book almost every day and it is slowly getting there. This was an especially hard chapter to write, but we did it.
Reply to DownhillIndirect post on February 1, 2020 at 5:37 pm
>> DownhillIndirect ( DND ) said…
>>
>> There are know recordings from FF’s on the YHF that
>> clearly heard an intense argument that finished with
>> accusations and expletives confirming thus was the
>> worst order based upon terrible SA and the inability
>> of EM ( Eric Marsh ) ( to ) process words, visuals
>> and voices.
>>
>> I hope that the audio is played for all as all deserve to know.
Quick question… have you, yourself, heard these ‘recordings’ of the ‘argument’ between Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed?
Sorry for the fourth grade grammar, I was tired yesterday, lol
DownhillIndirect
DND I think this bears special attention because of your close association with Steed and others close to Marsh and likely even firsthand knowledge of dealing with Marsh. I would have to put high value to your statements.
DND writes:
But the reason they did what they did, is because of the Hotshot Culture and they actually did what the USFS not only APPROVED of, but the USFS FIRE culture EXPECTED and even demanded that they do and that is SUPPORT their crew boss as a crew during a traumatic event.
Now…none of that was said openly, everyone…and I mean everyone including me, just pretended that the uncontrolled mob episode the crew engaged in…didn’t even happen. It was a non event. That is the Hotshot Culture That is what was a primary cause of the death of the crew.
In addition to of course a highly unstable and vindictive crew boss who would have taken away the health insurance from Captain Steeds family and ruined his chances of going to the floor (as they say) because the highly unstable and vindictive Marsh would have ferociously attacked Captain Steed in his fury at Steeds refusal to lead the crew out of the safe black and down the death chute by following his flagging to their horrible deaths, just as he did to another Assistant Crew Boss Over the bogus credit card point episode.
Charlie comments: DND what would be your ideas on how these type situations could be eliminated. It is obvious the system is broken when people are killed needlessly and carelessly as we saw in the Yarnell incident., But it seems to carry on without any recognition of the problem.,
Woodsman, do you believe Jesse went along to get along, therefore followed the orders of Marsh and the chain of command to attempt to get to Yarnell via the box canyon? He had argued with Marsh, certainly it was not his decision or best judgement to risk following orders. There had to be a reason he would take the crew down against his best judgement.
In another tack–wild land fire fighters are taking on chemicals that eventually show up in their health records. When it is known that less than one percent of the solutions applied to wild land fires kills salmon, it ought to make people understand that these chemicals in wild fire retardants are highly toxic to one species of animals, and then what makes them safe for humans and other animal species? The fact is they are not.
Forest Service encourages drops to not be closer than 300 ft. to water ways and sources. In reality, the retardant is water solvent and gets into the water drainage and soaks into even fresh water sources. California counties are warned not to eat any garden produce that has been contaminated with retardant. Grapes that were contaminated will not be harvested for human consumption.
I could not find the actual amount of retardant dropped for 2019. But for 2016 for California alone the drops amounted to 19 million gallons. I would have to believe that figure was greatly inflated during the megafires of 2019.
Phos Chek is a subsidiary of the Israeli company ICL Performance products. There are several formula’s including Trade names 259-F and LC 95 A. They promoted a “safer” product MVP-F for the 2017 fires.
I would like to know what the “safer” Trade Secret chemicals are. Would these companies lie to the citizens of the US about safer ingredients? Certainly they would and have. Phosphates of any kind are not kind to the health of humans nor to any other species on this planet. Every scientist in the study of environment will tell you the ocean dead zones are fed and increased by the toxins. Less that one per cent of a solution that is 85% water is a very dilute, yet deadly to fish. Yet these chemical companies want us to believe they are harmless to health.
Studies show it is a myth that the solutions help bring back flora. They do not. But if anything should talk to the Chemical Companies and the Forest Honchos that approve the toxins and the Politicians that enjoy the perks from Chemical Lobbyists, it would be the dead and sick ones of Yarnell. As they raise their wine glasses to toast the supposed retardant successes, would they also take time to contemplate the devastation to the oceans and environment.
When a murder occurs in a neighbor hood, the police and detectives go house to house searching for clues. When people are killed, they take it very seriously. I may or may not be a murder but they want to know. Would it not be a great thing for investigators to go to Yarnell and do a house to house investigation to see who might be sick and to see how many have deceased since the retardant dumps of the Yarnell fire and the subsequent Tenderfoot fire.
The State has that responsibility but will they own up to it? And please use the tax payer money to not have the State investigate it but a professional private investigating operation that would have no bias as we saw in the investigation of the deaths of the 19 GMHS crewmen.
I believe Jesse Steed had the love and respect of his crew, and earned it honestly. I believe he knew the move was wrong and stood against it more than once possibly hoping to address his major leadership concerns for the crew after this fire. Gary has done a much better job than me explaining the pressures Steed most likely was up against. I’ll defer to Gary to hopefully go over this one more time.
Woodsman
There is only one thing I can think of to say to make it any clearer and that is;
“Wildfires don’t kill hotshots…hotshots kill hotshots.”
Oh…and one more thing.
Question: If Jesse Steed was the hotshot you always wanted to be but couldn’t achieve because you were so deeply flawed, why weren’t you afraid to directly and aggressively challenge everyone, including the transportation people, the Division Boss, the Line Boss and even the Fire Boss himself, whereas Jesse Steed was unable to challenge a Division Boss (who I think was more like a Sector Boss rather than a Division Boss under LFO) and in the end lead his crew on what was clearly an extremely dangerous field maneuver in violation of almost all of the WF safety rules and guidelines to reposition them in spite of the fact that he initially refused to follow that order three separate times?
Answer: It was because I knew without a doubt that I had the unquestionable support of my direct supervisor and I had the supreme confidence that I was always firmly standing on a bedrock foundation of proud U.S. Forest Service hotshot crew tradition, history and ethos. Therefore, I was free to make the best decisions I could make in the best interest of my crew without any fear of retaliation, losing the career I had worked so hard to build and my family’s health insurance in the process. The only thing I was ever afraid of was going home to either Richard or Orlando and telling them face to face that I had killed some or all of their crews that they had entrusted to me. Jesse Steed knew he was standing in a house of cards built on a bedrock of sand courtesy of the Prescott Fire Department.
That should have been 1947 for the Roswell Crash. Since the atom bomb the UFO sightings greatly increased–Maybe the higher beings in the Universe are a bit concerned–They have shut down US silos with nuclear armed missiles and in Russia ran up their to point of firing them without the codes. It scared hell out of the Russians because they were unable to stop the sequence.. The visitors were just telling us they can intervene if they want to and they have the means to shut down our grid as well.. It did happen during a time there were some UFO activity but the Feds said it was a power line problem.
Certain that we will learn much more from Yarnell once a few of the Blue Ridge and others retire. That has happened with the UFO thing–the people reporting are people that you could never classify as kooks–Military and Police are trained in observations and seeing details an ordinary citizen would miss.
Woodsman
Leaving the entire military stuff out … and any focus to there like RTS seems to fancy going there …. could we talk about certified or not certified … that is the question … I have pulled records for years and been specific yet there is still no concrete area they were fully certified as well were all fully released to do SEASON 2013. especially medically released.
More brewing behind the scenes.
I am about to do a detour myself.
Dnd…thanks for today … I cannot sleep…I am really thinking about what ya suggested
Joy, I think one of the greatest ideas was to bring a proven Psychic to the scene. Psychics that are not the charlatan type have helped police investigations many times–they generally can add insights and unseen facts to the equation.
I realize one of the Christian ladies blew her top–how dare they allow a Psychic into that area–it would in her mind taint the sacred soil her son had died on. Christians sometimes forget their own teaching had plenty of gifts listed for people in the book of Corinthians–but most Christians are just about like most that attend any religion–they know little about their books, how they were interpreted, what even is said in them and how much was eliminated and added by the various Papal representatives of what they propose to represent. That again was re interpreted during the time of King James order to bring the Anchient Texts into the King.s English. Certain I think it was 52 scholars that were working on the interpretation, but then it had been 1611 years since the time of Christ who had written nothing down. It was some time after his death that the apostles began to write down what they remembered and John wrote his Apocalypse some 70 years after the death of Christ on the Isle of Patmos in that Prison where much like Alcatraz, it would be difficult to escape. Especially since they broke your legs so you could not take off in a hurry.
There are over 2,035 versions in 1,381 languages of the Bible. Plenty to argue about and question. The Pope and company knocked out many of the original books that most have never heard of. After all for a sum you could get yourself a ticket to heaven and even a ticket for dead loved ones in Purgatory for a sum–these were called Indulgences. At that time it would have been good insurance to keep favor with the church, since only a believer would part with good money for those. Others might be easy suspects for the witch department–a sure tour on the rack and likely a burning at the stake.
And that is what some are doing today to the Psychic. And the Arab, the Jew, the Christian are in the masses pretty much bonked in the head by the religious leaders. They say faith will save your ass–just believe old Muhammad, the Apostles, the Jew with the biggest cap–these fellows with their phylacteries will guide you to eternal bliss. Meantime bump your head, cross your chest, and by all means toss plenty of filthy lucre into the baskets so they can wash it clean with their bullshit.
Am I against religion? Generally organizations, even if they start out with good intentions end up corrupt. We see that in government and certainly in religion as well. The principles that Christ never wrote down-(-and I know damned well he did not sanction 2035 versions of the Bible), were generally along the basis of truth. Simply live and act in a decent and truthful manner. Be kind to your neighbor and he will likely return the attitude. These are the laws of ethics and decency that ought to be self evident, just as we ought not be making slaves and servants out of others, and indeed where they are lacking in understanding, help them to take responsibility to begin the process of thinking on their own. Education and not that by organizations such as public and government owned with agenda, but by thinking outside the box. Certain enterprises have an agenda and controlling what you are allowed to think about and by thinking out of the box. Knowledge is empowerment but it is truth that is necessary for the empowerment of the people.
If you still think Columbus was the first to discover America, then you would be quite Naive. The Vikings, The Irish, and you can bet even the Africans had been to America before Columbus came along. But if you were told instead the Columbus was the first to start long time permanent colonization of American and the English followed up with the treacherous ending of many Indian Tribes and finally the beginning of what we pledge allegiance to, then you are closer to the truth.
By the way, it has of late been learned that our Ben Franklin has some skeletons in the closet–real ones. He belonged to the Hell Fire Club and his apartment in England was undergoing some excavation work that uncovered both adult and child skeletons that could only be connected to good ole Ben. The forensics these days has grown marvelously–and too bad Ben can’t have his day in court, just as Eric Marsh can not.
So there are things we do not have complete answers too, yet it behooves us to continue to use whatever sources we can to try to get at it. The mighty forces that wish to force feed us garbage must be challenged. And it is fascinating to see the many angles and brilliant minds that contribute here. I am humbled by the wisdom brought here. I am glad to see that not all are willing to bow so easily to the structure that needs so much repair, yet wants to hide under threats, black outs, and black psychology to maintain it power positions as they if they are a god thing without blemish and above correction.
Sonny,
Finally getting around to replying to you about the nebulous Space Alien and UFO from my worldview. Here’s an Answers in Genesis link for my Christian worldview with a ton of other informative and provocative sources from the links below on this issue.
( https://answersingenesis.org/astronomy/alien-life/ )
Here are some quotes from a couple serious researchers: “In 1969 Lynn Catoe served as the senior bibliographer of a publication on UFOs researched by the Library of Congress for the U.S. Air Force Office of Scientific Research. After a two-year investigation, in which she surveyed thousands of documents, she drew explicit attention to the link between UFOs and the occult. She wrote, “ A large part of the available UFO literature . . . deals with subjects like mental telepathy, automatic writing and invisible entities . . . poltergeist manifestations and ‘possession.’ Many . . . UFO reports . . . recount alleged incidents that are strikingly similar to demonic possession and psychic phenomena. ” (footnote omitted) Veteran UFO researcher John Keel agrees. After surveying the literature on demonology he wrote, “ The manifestations and occurrences described in this imposing literature are similar if not entirely identical to the UFO phenomenon itself .” (footnote omitted) The bizarre claim of alien abduction may lend some credibility to these remarks.” (all emphasis added)
( https://probe.org/ufos-and-alien-beings/ )
And this is the Christian worldview answer that I accept.
“The Bible tells us that through His work on the cross, Jesus disarmed the demonic rulers and authorities (Col. 2:15). What’s more, for those who flee to Him for refuge, He makes available the “full armor of God,” that they might “stand firm against the schemes of the devil” (Eph. 6:11). Regardless of who or what these alien beings might be, no one need live in fear of them. If Jesus has triumphed over the realm of evil demonic spirits, then certainly no alien can stand against Him. Let those who live in fear turn to Jesus, for He offers rest to all who are weary and heavy-laden (Matt. 11:28).”
Woodsman,
Happy Groundhog Day and Palindrome Day Today’s numerical date is written out: 02-02-2020 . A Palindrome Day happens when the day’s date can be read the same way backward and forward. The dates are similar to word palindromes in that they are symmetrical.
I digress. GTS it yourself.
__________________________________________________________________________________
And here’s a Groundhog Day link for y’all from 2016 ( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xix-here/#comment-329116 ) WTKTT posted on March 12, 2016 from “a poem written by the father of a USFS Hotshot and published by the Prescott eNews organization … what even HE thinks his OWN SON is SUPPOSED to be doing ‘out there’ … “ Hotshots Follow Orders ” (emphasis added)
In typical YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy fashion, attributed to the SAIT and the USFS that funded the AZ State Forestry SAIT with FEDERAL TAX DOLLARS, consider now the link for an article titled something like: ‘GMHS the Men of Yarnell Hill.’ The link had a classic “404 Error” and an Internet Archive Wayback Machine run for the Prescott eNews article titled: came back with this: “No URL has been captured for this domain.”
So once again, the Dark Side cretins of the YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy have even more unaccounted for public records in order to maintain the nefarious “we will never know” façade stated in the SAIT-SAIR at least six times and publicly flaunted by the likes of PFD Willis and USFS Heaton.
Finally getting around to addressing your post, specifically mentioning me, as if I am one of the non-believing Truth Tellers on the outs with all the Kool-Aid drinkers and Party Liners from the Dark Side. I assure you that you and I and others on IM are on the same side – the Truth Tellers.
I have been busy finalizing and submitting our 2020 Applied Human Factors and Ergonomics (AHFE) paper ( “ Credible evidence continues to surface regarding a likely “friendly fire” incident along the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area on June 30, 2013 “ )
Alas, I focus on the military incidents of friendly fire and use the military as an analog for wildland fire incidents of friendly fire such as occurred on the YH Fire and “ likely fired off by a mixture of Federal, State, and local Municipal Fire personnel .”
And of course, always focusing on the who, what, and why of what occurred on June 30, 2013. And guess what – those pesky human factors always seem to come up as causal factors .
I had – and will always have – the utmost respect for Jesse Steed. You posted something about you having “a serious problem with the assumption” of the GMHS deaths being attributed to “some crewmembers prior military service.” First off, “a serious problem.” Really, a serious problem? Not just a problem? Second, it’s definitely NOT an assumption. Instead, it is an educated professional conclusion based on inductive logic, and from written statements made by Marines themselves from the online Military.com website.
You went on to declare your professional opinion? Or was it merely your opinion? “It is and always has been a weak and false argument.”
You further posted: “The TRUTH is that Jesse Steed, a former Marine, had his head screwed on straight, was a respected leader, and treated his subordinates with respect and compassion.” We are in complete agreement here My Friend. Okay to refer to you as that? Or do you have serious problems with this?
EM was most definitely the one “with a chip on his shoulder, was constantly out to prove something and “one up” others, and ruled with an iron fist.” I recall a WF supervisor sharing this anecdote with me on an Idaho wildfire. He was on a fire somewhere with GMHS and parked next to them at the ICP; after the morning briefing and before shift, he witnessed EM pacing back and forth, berating his men, laced with a whole lot of profanity; like someone with a short guy, Napoleonic complex.
You also posted: “The position of prior Marine Corps service contributing to the death of GMIHC has always been a false assumption.” And how do you conclude that is a false assumption?
Once again, I base mine on an educated professional conclusion grounded on inductive logic and statements made by Marines in the online Military.com website.
You also posted: “A good man and former Marine tried to save them from a civilian trying to kill them.”
Yes indeed, he was definitely a “good man” which has nothing at all to do with being a good supervisor. Then there is the “trying” issue. Once we say that we are going to “try” to do something, we build into our intention the potential for failure, or, at the very least, limited success. When we say that we are going to “do” something, it sets us up to succeed right out of the chute. LOTS of credible research to support this.
However, the “former Marine” does have something to do with being a good supervisor. The “tried to save them” post is correct with his weak response that we can hear on the altered Mackenzie “discussing our options” video. And that was very definitely due to human factors, likely the classic “mitigating and /or hinting speech” researched by Daniel Goleman. I replace the medical examples with wildland fire ones in brackets [ ].
“Ambiguous or non-committal speech (aka ‘mitigating or hinting speech ’) is common prior to airline crashes and during [wildland fires] (footnote omitted). This is why we must replace comments like ‘Perhaps we need a [bucket drop] or ‘We should think about [abandoning our Safety Zone]’, with [‘Let’s stay put in the black and let the big dog eat’]. Junior members may mitigate to show deference, when embarrassed or if unsure. If time permits ‘mitigating language’ can be harmless, and may even aid team building (‘If you get a moment could you [get off your ass and get back to work?].
“However, in a crisis, using the wrong communication tool is at least as dangerous as [failing to use direct speech regarding the safety and welfare of those you are responsible for as their supervisor ] (footnote omitted). ..”
Another researcher, Malcolm Gladwell from his book Outliers, in a June 2009 “What’s Best Next” article titled: “Mitigated Speech and Plane Crashes” points out the dangers of deference to authority and mitigated or hinting speech. And I believe that is what Steed was doing on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, rather than being direct – for the sake of those he was ultimately responsible for as their trusted supervisor. And the two other Marines (one a Rookie Marine Scout Sniper with additional, intense leadership training) followed suit likely as fellow Marines . And the GMHS followed their trusted Marine Corps mates and the Rookies followed everyone else because they were Rookies and figured likely all knew better.
And you finished with this post: “This is why I have pleaded with RTS to remove the incorrect assumptions from his published work in this regard.” It’s because I have a first Amendment right to do so and an obligation to continue to publish, both here and internationally as I see fit.
At least I’m making the effort to get “published” other places besides making posts on IM.
On February 1, 2020 at 4:49 am you posted: “… Nobody blindly followed orders because of prior military service of a few of members of the crew. If anyone “went along to get along” it was because they didn’t want to suffer the wrath of their [Crew Boss] with personality problems. Full stop.”
Consider now the “ blindly followed orders because of prior military service” post However, the “because of a few of members of the crew is definitely invalid because these men were actual and informal LEADERS in every sense of the word – as Marines. (emphasis added) In other words, they were much more than “members of the crew.”
Every group has people who influence and motivate others without relying on their title or formal position in the hierarchy to accomplish this. They are called “ authentic informal leaders .” They’re power resides in their ability to spread a critical few behaviors from their level up.
During the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area likely firing operation, one of the supervisory personnel involved was a Marine. And he followed orders from an alleged supervisor? (“a guy”) without questioning the unknown overhead about his position of authority. This unknown alleged supervisor (“a guy” instructed him and his Crew to fire their way out. A clear case of Watch Out #19.
From his words: “We haven’t slept in almost two days and as we headed out north to south, a guy stopped us and said: ‘Light the road on the way out, hold it up shy of the ranch .’” (emphasis added)
____________________________________________________________________________________
From Military.com article “ Marine Veterans Among 19 Firefighters Killed (July 24, 2013) – “ For the remaining members of the Granite Mountain Hotshots , their duties remain the same. They will continue protecting the communities around Prescott from the wildfires, but now have the additional duty of living up to the example and sacrifices of their fallen brothers. “
The article assumed that the GMHS would carry one. And the telling statement is: “ the additional duty of living up to the example and sacrifices of their fallen brothers .” That’s really something to strive for as an example.
“ The Ultimate Sacrifice
On June 30, Travis and fellow Marine Jesse led the Granite Mountain crew into the toughest fight they had ever faced with no second-guesses. They had a mission to accomplish — protect the community of Yarnell — and just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal .”
I think this one straight from a Marine Corps article pretty much sums it up: “ … just like their time in the Corps, they were willing to lay down their lives to achieve that goal. “
( https://www.military.com/daily-news/2013/07/24/marine-veterans-among-19-firefighters-killed.html )
___________________________________________________________________________________
There are – IN FACT – additional, unpublished videos similar to the “FULL Helmet Camera Video from Yarnell Hill Fire (M2U00265)” from EN published December 2013 where we hear several of the GMHS on the radio with Air Attack. There are at least a couple USFS employees in possession of video / audio containing this Steed statement commenting to EM: “You really f**ked us this time Eric .”
Woodsman,
I forgot about this obscure Military.com video
PFD Wildland Battalion Chief Willis “ They did it always to protect others . Every person there knew that they were going to protect the community of Yarnell. And if they laid down there life, it’s just like the Marines. They knew what they had to do … and there couldn’t be an any more honorable way to die than the way they died ”
Are you f**king kidding me? “They did it always to protect others.” What about themselves? What about the GMHS? What about the ones for whom they had a solemn duty and responsibility to protect the lives of those they were responsible for? What about them?
And then this gem: “And if they laid down there life, it’s just like the Marines. They knew what they had to do … and there couldn’t be an any more honorable way to die than the way they died.” WTF!? They knew what they had to do? NOBODY held a virtual or literal gun to their head(s). NOBODY forced them off the Weavers that day.
This sure resembles some Marine Corps influence on the final outcome to me.
Marine Vet Killed Fighting Wildfire (accessed February 2, 2020)
( https://www.military.com/video/specialties-and-personnel/veterans/marine-vet-killed-fighting-wildfire/2581462564001 ) Willis near the end about 3:30 to 3:50
( 2 Aug 2013 | Posted by Member 26835147 )
Although I can not see how they would be laying down their lives to protect others, I can see how they did lay down their lives to strictly obey orders and as Willis would say to protect structures”.
I can see the complete fallacy in any attempt for a wild land fire crew to protect structures. Yarnell was miles away and there were hoards of firemen, lawmen, fema and other government agents swarming around Yarnell–doing due dilligence of moving people out.
Please explain to me any significance at all a wild land fire crew, specifically GMHS could do in protecting structures. What equipment do they have that would do any good against a fire that was releasing energy of the Atomic Bomb every few minutes according to fire scientists Wooten and Morrison. And according to what I was witnessing even an army of a 1000 men could not stop and had they been cut off and burned over in that canyon, all would have perished.
What I see in hiring of men that would take on the responsibility of the lives and safety of a crew would be is this a man of integrity and will he put his men’s lives before orders of those above him and most especially when it is an order to protect structures.
The GMHS crew lost their lives because of bad decisions and risk taking bosses willing to play Russian roulette with the lives of those they were responsible for.
A lot of the problem is the way the system is set up. If you dare challenge the asshole above you then your life is in jeopardy. Those attending the parties know the rules of the game–you toast the system and what the big assholes decide will be honored. Even a bit of silent talk is dangerous to careers when you are under a mum order even if that mum order is absolutely against the law.
Authorities have been the greatest law breakers at Yarnell. Ordering people to keep thier mouths shut at the risk of their careers, their retirements, etc. is in direct violation of first amendment rights of free speech. But when it restricts factual information as it did at Yarnell, then there is a large number of individuals, Judges, Lawyers, etc. that need impeachment. And do not think Judges are all that clean–they are subject to being brought up before panels of higher Judges and removed from their bench when found derelict in their duties. I have to believe at least one Judge in Prescott that invoked the mum order should have his ass brought before a review board–the first amendment is a precious law to the citizen, not to be broken even by a Judge.
It would follow that anyone, Judge or other authority even giving a hint at threatening a person’s livilihood should instead have his judgeship or authority threatened and likely revoked.
We have to wonder how things would have played out–Something Woodsman, RTS, DND and others in the system would be able to elaborate on–had Jesse Steed refused the order as he wanted to do, yet failed to resist.
I suspect, for saving the men, Steed would have been brought up on the carpet for a good spanking–maybe even more. But it would take a man or woman working in the wild land fire situation to tell the citizen what one would expect for refusing an order in Steed’s shoes.
I hope someone of experience would comment on that issue. Perhaps it would throw some light on why GMHS and Steed did the unimaginable.
Hand Crews and Hot Shot Crews can be of great significance on a wildland fire, specifically the GMHS or any Crew protecting structures. They already have all the equipment they need, (e.g. chainsaws, leaf blowers, some carry weed-eaters for grass, etc.) and all this must be done long before the fire gets there, gets too aggressive – all the details of which are clearly outlined in the Wildland Urban Interface Course (S-215).
No one but The Good Lord has the power to fight a fire that is releasing the amount of energy of an atomic bomb every few minutes. You are supposed to do all that LONG BEFORE the fire gets there following LCES, the Fire Orders, and heeding and mitigating the Watch Outs. And there are clear Tactical Watch Outs that indicate when to disengage.
The Wooten and Morrison report is excellent and goes into a lot of detail. And according to what I was witnessing even an army of a 1000 men could not stop and had they been cut off and burned over in that canyon, all would have perished.
The insidious power of Group Think and The Abilene Paradox and the seemingly counterintuitive Destructive Goal Pursuit are only some of the human factors on why GMHS and Steed did the unimaginable.
GTS for B.A. De Oliveira (2009) Destructive Goal Pursuit: the Mount Everest Disaster – Digital Commons for a review of the book by the same title from Kayes
RTS,
Of course i consider you a friend as much i can be without actually meeting you. Of course were on the same side.
If former Marines always follow orders Steed would not have refused ( twice ) by definition. I think there’s a real reason for these orders being followed.
1. Hotshot culture generally and GMIHC culture specifically, taking it to the extreme in an effort to prove themselves as a new kid on the block of unconventional roots. All one has to do is read the literature for GM claiming hotshots follow orders and you’ll have your answer.
2. They ultimately followed orders in an attempt to avoid the wrath of a supervisor or supervisors.
I also think the mitigating speech has a simpler explanation than any deep psychology. JS and other crew overhead were accustomed to walking the tightrope of give and take while trying to avoid setting off a supervisor, whom apparently had a history of public shaming and beration…which you gave me another example of so thank you. I also think it’s possible that there was going to be a leadership change coming for this crew and it may have led to an even more “challenging” workplace than normal. They probably thought that they just needed to get through this one and changes would come. I wish they could have had that chance.
Thanks
Woodsman
I never said nor do I believe that former Marines always follow orders. What orders are you referring to that Steed twice did follow?
You posted that you “think there’s a real reason for these orders being followed.”
And you list these as your proof: “1. Hotshot culture generally and GMIHC culture specifically, taking it to the extreme in an effort to prove themselves as a new kid on the block of unconventional roots. All one has to do is read the literature for GM claiming hotshots follow orders and you’ll have your answer.”
“2. They ultimately followed orders in an attempt to avoid the wrath of a supervisor or supervisors.”
Hot Shot culture is far from endorsing following orders just to follow orders. It’s case-by-case and Crew-by-Crew or Superintendent specific based on following orders if they are safe, ethical, legal, and moral. Conversely, we are to refuse to follow orders that are unsafe, unethical, illegal, and immoral. However, Marsh specifically and the GMHS, progressively amplified their general refusal to comply with legitimate “orders” or supervisory direction. The IRPG refers to this as “How to Properly Refuse Risk.” And 2012 was a landmark year for them both on the Holloway Fire (NV & OR) and the Halstead Fire in Idaho (where they burned up their ATV). Both of these are detailed in previous posts.
Marsh was the one taking it to the extreme in an effort to prove themselves began in the first full year as an IHC in 2009. He spouted that off in a HS Workshop and was told that he was already “prove” by the fact of being certified as a Type 1 IHC; to go forth and be a Hot Shot Crew. As far as the “new kid on the block of unconventional roots” thing, there were (and still are) numerous other Municipal Type 1 HS Crews (e.g. Ironwood (AZ), Rio Bravo (CA), LAFD (CA), Ventura (CA), and a few more). That was always a PFD media spin.
The Tucson, AZ City Council disbanded the Northwest FD Ironwood HS after the YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy because of liability fears … period. There’s an entire back story on that issue alone for another time.
Regarding the mitigating speech issue, there really is a simple explanation, and it is responsible for a number of aircraft accidents, near misses, and fatalities. I’m sure there may be some deeper psychology. That sounds like a good research project for you. I’ve provided the basis for you with research by Goleman and Gladwell, especially in his book “Outliers.”
(http://lequydonhanoi.edu.vn/upload_images/S%C3%A1ch%20ngo%E1%BA%A1i%20ng%E1%BB%AF/Outliers-%20The%20Story%20of%20Success.pdf)
Malcolm Gladwell popularized the idea of mitigated speech in Outliers. He defines it as “ any attempt to downplay or sugarcoat the meaning of what is being said.” It results in indirect speech, especially between two people with perceived hierarchical differences, such as an employee and a superior .
Several language researchers have conducted studies to determine how people of different ranks communicate. With minor variations, they have identified six degrees of mitigation:
Command: “This feature will be finished by next week.”
Team Obligation Statement: “We need to get this feature finished by next week.”
Team Suggestion: “How about we aim to get this feature finished by next week?”
Query: “Do you think we could get this feature finished by next week?”
Preference: “Ideally this feature would be finished by next week.”
Hint: “The marketing launch for this feature is next week.”
Some mitigating speech examples in wildland fire might be “It would be nice if this Escape Route was scouted out and flagged” or this classic one that we have all experienced for assignments expected to take several hours to complete: “The weather forecast predicts single digit RH’s and Red Flag conditions by 1300 hours, so why don’t you guys just give it a try for a few hours”
It’s a true statement all the way that “JS and other crew overhead were accustomed to walking the tightrope of give and take while trying to avoid setting off a supervisor.” We have all dealt with that inevitability and sometimes more nauseating, stressful, time consuming, and tiring than the actual firefighting.
There was going to be “a leadership change coming for this crew and it may have led to an even more ‘challenging’ workplace than normal.” Okay, so what?
Once again – The duty and responsibility of every supervisor is the safety and welfare of those under their supervision. No matter what! Or as you say – Full Stop.
You’re kidding me, right? “They probably thought that they just needed to get through this one and changes would come.” You actually believe that changes would just come on their own without them doing anything at all to change those things needing change? Are you an Evolutionist or something that believes that things just happen on their own without any type of human intervention? ( https://answersingenesis.org/evidence-against-evolution/ )
And now for this one: “2. They ultimately followed orders in an attempt to avoid the wrath of a supervisor or supervisors.”
Hearken back to the NWCG WFSTAR poster titled: “Blow-up to Burnover” that indicates that these guys spent an incredible “52 minutes” in their discreet GMHS channel “discussing our options” radio conversation whether to stay or leave.
There is more to this than publicly known (yet). You know how to get in touch with me
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on January 25, 2020 at 4:26
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-482162
Thank you again for taking the time to tell us more about your close friend Jesse, and what he was telling YOU about what it was like working for Eric Marsh, Darrell Willis and the City of Prescott.
It definitely sounds like “All was not well”… long before the actual tragedy.
Some of my ‘replies’ are going to have links so I’m going to post them as individual messages below so as not to hit the ‘2 links per post’ limit.
DND said…
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Jess was professional but inside he knew he wanted to make the change within the COP ( City Of Prescott ) guidelines to the “Floor” ( the structural side of the department ).
The last time I spoke to him was during the Doce while I was on another fire in another region.
He said, and this is hard to say knowing I couldn’t help him right away ( A part of my PTSI therapy has helped but I still suffer from this interaction). He said “I wish you were here bro, the fire is in our childhood, our party spot our gun range”. I don’t know how much longer I can do this, the damage control the “Time-outs”. I need to make the move to the floor”.
That was the first time I had ever heard him sound defeated.
I told him to, “Hold On, Be Safe and go talk to DS ( Duane Steinbrink ) and DW ( Darrell Willis ) when you get off the fire during your R&R”. “These guys love you, hell the department loves you, you will excel at everything you do”.
He agreed and had to go as they were going to do some burning. I told him I loved him and to call me after he reached out to the other chiefs.
That was the last time I talked to him,
I hold onto his voice and our friendship, I’d say brotherhood but that word was ruined by the years of nonfactual spew that followed the burn-over.
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So it sounds like even JUST two-weeks prior to the 2013 Yarnell tragedy, during the Doce fire, Jesse Steed had “had enough” of what was really going on within that Granite Mountain Hotshot organization.
Too much “damage control”, all the time.
Too many “Time-outs”.
It’s gut-wrenching to think that maybe all Jesse had to do was survive one more fire and he was ( as you suggested ) going to “pull the rip-cord” and get himself out of that “accident waiting to happen”.
DND also said…
—————————————————————————————————-
Coming from a municipality the internal hardships of multiple company and chief officers bled into what was expected of the crew. The mantra “Risk a lot to save a lot” became “Risk a lot to save little”,
—————————————————————————————————-
That contradicts what Willis and others have ‘testified’ to, and what the SAIT ‘concluded’.
That despite the fact that Granite Mountain was ‘owned and operated’ by a municipal fire department that never had any influence on them whatsoever.
Sounds like the truth was the exact opposite. HEAVY influence coming from the COP management side.
Operating a wildland crew with a consistent “Risk a lot to save a lot” agenda is bad enough.
Operating a wildland crew with a consistent “Risk a lot to save LITTLE” agenda is even worse.
Recipe for disaster.
DND also said…
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As C-7 ( Fuels Crew 7 ) changed and evolved more and more people came in and left the crews infrastructure from a CRWB ( Crew Work Boss ) standpoint. Thant kind of change in overhead is difficult and can cause dissension.
DW ( Darrell Willis ) at the time was a big part of helping the crew and helped DS ( Duane Steinbrink ) cut through the red tape.
When EM ( Eric Marsh ) was hired it was like any other new thing. He ( Eric Marsh ) was open minded and wanted to build the crew to be it’s best. The honeymoon ended like they always do and the internal fire to always prove something began.
————————————————————————————————-
Marsh’s ( documented ) obsession with always wanting to PROVE something was not being discouraged by COP ( City of Prescott ) management in any way.
Quite the opposite.
If you simply read the things that Darrell Willis would say to Marsh in his written evaluations, it was obvious that Darrell Willis was ENCOURAGING the behavior and, indeed, pretty much DEMANDING it.
More recipe for disaster.
DND also said…
————————————————————————————————–
One of the many issues that placed a quiet wedge between himself ( Jesse Steed ) and his Supt. ( Eric Marsh ) was how he and EM ( Eric Marsh ) differed in Leadership, training and approach to tactics and safety.
As much as the media portrayed “all was well”, Jess had the monumental task to navigate an atmosphere in which he acquiesced at times to divert from un-needed and preventable harsh and public behavior that occurred.
On multiple occasion GM’s crew ( or individuals ) were observed with narcissistic patterns and fell back to the leadership.
Jess was the voice of reason and told me on more than one occasion that his boss was unstable, argumentative and was unable to work with others, especially the ones his supervisor didn’t like.
That list of people his Supt. ( Eric Marsh ) “Disliked began to grow by the day”.
————————————————————————————————
Definitely sounds like the “all was well” descriptions were/are not accurate.
The “argumentative” and “unable to work with others” phrases actually match what is in WRITING in some of Eric Marsh’s yearly evaluation reports released by the City of Prescott to the ADOSH investigators.
He ( Marsh ) got better over time, but he was actually placed on “probation” for a while for these very reasons.
I’m curious about these, though…
“un-needed and preventable harsh and public behavior that occurred.”
“On multiple occasion GM’s crew ( or individuals ) were observed with narcissistic patterns.”
Can you tell us any more about what is being referred to in THOSE two statements?
DND also said…
————————————————————————————————
Some of the calls and private interactions I had with him on fires pre and during GM’s IHC status were hard to hear.
( Jesse said… )
“I don’t know how much longer I can tolerate “His” ( Eric Marsh’s ) behavior and constant need to prove himself at the cost of a bad reputation or worse, we have close calls on almost every fire”
Jess went on explaining that they were “Accepted” and taking on assignments that others declined were associated with bad overhead and general staff direction to “Just get the job done, at all costs sometimes”.
Jess was not a coward by any means of the word but he knew that even when he said “This is a bad idea”, he would be over-run by “Insane tactics”
Jess said “it was all I could do to make sure his guys had a safe way out even though there was a better way, a safer way”.
————————————————————————————————-
You quoting Jesse Steed: “…we have close calls on almost EVERY fire”.
This should have been revealed in the original investigation(s). No question.
As for Jesse confirming ( to YOU ) that Eric Marsh was creating an intolerable work situation through his constant need to have to PROVE something… that matches exactly what former GM Hotshot Brandon Bunch said to author Kyle Dickman.
When Kyle Dickman published his book “On The Burning Edge” about the Granite Mountain Hotshots, Dickman confirmed that most of what he printed about what it was like to ‘ride’ with Granite Mountain came from Brendan McDonough and just TWO other former GM Hotshots… Brandon Bunch and Renan Packer.
Renan Packer is the one who had to leave the GM organization because he had a seizure on the 2013 Thompson fire… and Brandon Bunch also left GM immediately following the 2013 Thompson Ridge fire… but for a different ( non-medical ) reason.
Brandon Bunch told Kyle Dickman that (quote) “the more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves” ( endquote ).
In the winter of 2012, in-between the 2012 and 2013 fire season(s), Brandon Bunch had applied for work with two other Federal Hotshot crews in the hopes of continuing his career, but getting AWAY from Marsh and Granite Mountain.
Those plans changed for 2013 when his wife was suddenly expecting their third child and they decided Brandon should just ‘stick it out’ and stay with GM for just part of one more season.
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
https://www.amazon.com/Burning-Edge-Fateful-Fire-Fought/dp/0553392123
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IN ‘CHAPTER FIVE – JUSTIFIABLE RISK’
Brandon Bunch had been with Granite Mountain since 2010, the crew’s second year as hotshots, and he remembered the men back then being “nasty dudes who never took their yellows off. We were proud to be hard.” Marsh’s standards were high, and Bunch did everything he could to meet them.
In an attempt to prove himself, Bunch once worked himself to heat exhaustion and had to spend an hour sitting in the shade. He returned to work that same afternoon.
Later in his rookie year, Bunch was arrested for drinking and driving, an offense severe enough to merit his firing. The only reason he kept his job was because Marsh convinced the department chiefs to give him a second chance. Bunch was nineteen at the time, and Marsh forgave his recklessness.
“It’s nice to see you’ve got a little life in you,” Marsh told Bunch.
Marsh, though, remained an enigma to him. Bunch never felt he had a good read on his superintendent, but then, few people who worked with him did. One former colleague called him an “onion with layers he doesn’t let most people see.”
Marsh was a polymath and a bit of a snob. He took pride in understanding his pursuits well, and whether it was music, bikes, his tattoos, or his books and coffee (always locally roasted and shade-grown), Marsh enjoyed the finest things he could reasonably afford. His discerning taste gave Bunch the impression Marsh was cerebral but often lacking in the real-world experience to back up his ample theoretical knowledge. Whether it was mountain biking, riding horses, or firefighting, he knew all the right terms and the way to present himself.
He ( Marsh ) also seemed to be searching for identity and affirmation.
The more seasons Bunch worked for Granite Mountain, the more he felt that under Marsh’s command, the hotshots were ALWAYS having to PROVE themselves.
By the end of the 2012 season… That winter, he ( Bunch ) applied to two federal hotshot crews, in hopes of finding a crew culture that aligned more closely with his love of the woods.
Then Janae got pregnant again.
She didn’t want him to go back to hotshotting at all.
Money was tight, and the Bunches had few options.
He and Janae decided that the best option was for him to return to the GM crew for another season. He’d leave just before Janae’s due date.
Marsh agreed to let one of his best sawyers leave early, and they set Bunch’s last day for the first week of July, 2013.
—————————————————————————————————
Brandon Bunch actually left earlier than the pre-planned first week of July, 2013.
He left GM just after returning from the Thompson Ridge Fire, a few weeks before Yarnell.
If Brandon Bunch had actually stayed with GM until that pre-planned first week of July, 2013, he most likely would have died at Yarnell along with all the others.
John Percin Jr. ( Rest In Peace ) was the one who replaced Brandon Bunch, and Percin only worked ONE fire ( in Skull valley, on June 29, 2013 ) with GM before dying in Yarnell.
Brandon Bunch would go on to appear in the movie “Only the Brave”, where, even though he didn’t resemble his close friend Garret Zuppiger, he was allowed to portray him in the movie.
WTKTT,
As I sat reading your multiple heart felt posts regarding Jess, I was flooded with day dreams that made me feel like I was there. My German Shepherd woke me up in between reading the posts like he knew I needed to focus. I started to read your posts about a half an hour ago according to my time zone but, like with anything else that is special, time felt irrelevant. I made an typo error in regards ti the “Narcissistic comment from day ago and wanted to cut and past the quote and give it the depth it deserves.
WTKTT said,
I’m curious about these, though…
“un-needed and preventable harsh and public behavior that occurred.”
“On multiple occasion GM’s crew ( or individuals ) were observed with narcissistic patterns.”
Public scorning’s that occurred at multiple fire camps, briefings and fire camp parking areas, day, night or early morning, witnessed by many directed at GMIHC. I have played sports at the collegiate level and never had a coach or coaches tear me or groups of us down in public. In fact we were stronger after a bad play knowing we couldn’t fix the past and we knew we would TALK about the mistake later. That kind of leadership was something I know for a fact that Jess had. Even into my career path, being professional and treating people like adults has been shown to build a very strong and resilient work force. Knowing Jess had the full respect from the crew in EM’s absence probably set forth some insecurities that weren’t Jesse’s, I’ve witnessed it before. I am always proud to see my guys/gals forging new trust and relationships with my assistants, “It’s just good business and teamwork”. Some would say that my last comment about insecurity is disrespectful, that is fine, but know this, one of my best Captains and leaders I have ever had was 9 years younger than me, to this day I thank him.
As far as the “Narcissistic behaviors observations, I agree with you. Those reports and individual performance appraisals addressed it directly. It is OK to tell your people the “You guys/gals are the best, I am proud of you. great job!” Where the problem started was not with the crew or the subordinates but with the disillusion thought that it is/was OK to take a good group of young, seasoned and a well versed Captain and drive them into submission. The crew did do a great job and proved themselves, enough do to certified as a Type 1 IHC. It was well documented before and after from well respected IHC Supt.s that EM overly pushed his crew and took assignments that were declined not moments before by other IHC’s. The teams responsible for running these incidents know that offering an assignment refused by anyone is wrong and breaks a book load of ROE’s that are agreed upon and followed nationally. The Narcissism from the teams down to some that think they must prove to all they are the “Best” lead to many fatalities including the YHF.
I have followed Ms. Bolt and her story and know that kind of behavior including harassment is still being condoned by the Agency tasked to protect their most valuable resource, their people. Sadly, and with thousands of pages of proof, litigation and buy-outs, the “Culture” will remain under the well known fact that “If you say something,, nothing will happen. The “Agency” will protect itself at all costs even if they know they are wrong. Even with a lawyer an employee that still loves the the pure action of helping people will be paid off and forced to sign a NDO.
It is a very good journey we are on that isn’t filled with spite. This journey started roughly until good people like JOy, RTS WYKTT, Gary, Woodsman, Charlie and more began the search. Truth is a funny thing, it requires no key, it is gentle and it provides the comfort or justice for those whom need it, at all levels. I miss all my friends that have perished from multiple fires and I know that this work will ensure their story’s are told in full.
DownhillIndirect
The story that I remember that has always bothered me, was the way a crew member who had apparently forgotten to either remove or place the chalk blocks had to carry them around with him as a means of public shaming that included carrying them into a restaurant in Santa Fe if remember correctly.? And an older man who was a customer in the restaurant chided the crew member about his mistake, based on him carrying the blocks into the restaurant with him. I think that might be an example of Marsh’s management style?
WTKTT,
I appreciate how you present things my friend. Today was a little rough but I have some more for the good of the order tomorrow, I promise I won’t mess up the Superbowl.
DownhillIndirect
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on January 25, 2020 at 4:26 pm
>> DND said…
>>
>> Jess was a happy person. When I first met him there was something I
>> admired greatly, his ability to make those in his life feel like they were
>> special, appreciated and important. He wasn’t in it ( firefighting ) for the money
>> or fame but he did it to help people and to be a part of a highly trained brotherhood
>> he compared to his time spent as a United States Marine Corps. Time flew by as we
>> both shared a profession and we saw each-other on fires all over the west.
>> He told me he really enjoyed being a Hotshot and was excelling at it greatly.
>> He found his place in the world and I know he helped employ sound Leadership
>> principles he already had and from the Marine Corps.
>>
>> For a year we only spoke a few times but, when he did he always was more concerned
>> about others, family, friends and his crew. Jess was becoming a leader that
>> firefighters followed and respected.
>>
>> So, He was the guy that we all know and love. The guy you throw the winning ball
>> to and the guy that comes to the hospital with roses for your wife after she gives
>> birth. He loved hard, worked hard and fought hard. He was inches away from change.
>> He was/is loved by those he touched and by those that “Just met him”. I miss him
>> and I know he is making people laugh in the next life. He holds no contempt and
>> has healed more people than we know.
Thank you so much for sharing ( with us ) more about who Jesse REALLY was.
Speaking of who Jesse REALLY was… and ‘leadership’ and ‘being respected’ by his fellow firefighters… are you familiar with THIS story?…
** JESSE STEED BECAME ABBY BOLT’S PROTECTOR
Over the course of a 22 year career, Abby Bolt rose through the ranks of the wildland firefighting service, ( Hotshot, Helicopter rappeller, Engine assignments, etc. ) to the Battalion Chief level, eventually becoming a USFS District Assistant Fire Management Officer on the Kern River Ranger District of the Sequoia National Forest in California.
She is a now-famous ‘profile in courage’ and has always been on the forefront of advocating for the rights of women in the Forest Service.
During the 2012 fire season, Abby Bolt was raped by another firefighter while on assignment in Colorado with an Incident Managment Team ( IMT ).
Not too long ago, on March 16 of 2018, Abby Bolt did an on-air interview with PRI’s Environmental News Magazine known as “Living on Earth”.
Abby Bolt was interviewed by the show’s host, Steve Curwood.
NOTE: At the time this interview took place, Abby Bolt was still working for the U.S. Forestry Service. She has since resigned ( in April of 2019 ) and wrote a very public resignation letter in the hopes of making a difference and forcing needed ‘changes’ to ‘the culture’.
In the middle of that interview, after Abby Bolt had already talked about the details of being forcibly raped by a firefighter ( from Arizona ) working on the same fire, she was explaining that even while two different police departments were looking into the matter she was still going out on fires that 2012 season, and ended up working on ANOTHER fire where her ASSAILANT was also working.
She then explains that she turned to a “friend on a hot shot crew” who was also working that same fire, confided the situation to him, and asked if he could ‘protect’ her while she was there working that fire.
That “friend” of hers was also from Arizona where she knew her rape assailant was from.
That “friend” that Abby Bolt turned to for “protection” was Jesse Steed, Captain of the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Living on Earth
PRI’s Environmental News Magazine
Interview Title: Sexual Misconduct in the US Forest Service: One Woman’s Story
Air Date: Week of March 16, 2018
https://www.loe.org/shows/segments.html?programID=18-P13-00011&segmentID=2
Excerpts from the TRANSCRIPT of this interview with Abby Bolt…
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Abby Bolt loves her job as a Battalion Chief for the U.S. Forest Service, leading forest fire prevention efforts and commanding teams of hundreds of people in a disaster. But in a conversation with Host Steve Curwood, Bolt describes a “good ol’ boy” culture in the agency that casts a blind eye over sexual misconduct, hazing and harassment directed at the few women in the agency. Bolt says instead of addressing complaints, some supervisors in the Forest Service protect the harassers – even punishing women who speak up.
STEVE CURWOOD: So, talk to me what happened to you back in 2012. You went on assignment in Colorado.
ABBY BOLT: Yeah, I was actually in Wyoming and Colorado and I was with an incident management team, and we were traveling around the country, had a few fires that we were dealing with and one was in Wyoming, and then also we were partly in Colorado. And towards the end of the assignment I was sexually assaulted and raped by another firefighter that wasn’t a member of our team, but he was there working with them and it was a violent situation by somebody that I was an acquaintance with and I never understood like how that could happen or what you do in that situation. and I just I remember negotiating with him and pleading with him, and long story short I was covered in bruises and, yeah, so…
STEVE CURWOOD: I’m so sorry. It’s just so horrible.
( snip )
STEVE CURWOOD: So you got the rape kit from the local police department where you were assaulted or back home or?
ABBY BOLT: Actually, back home where I live, and they ended up working with the police department where I was assaulted, and both of those detectives kept following up with me and they were pleading with me to press charges, and I just couldn’t bring myself to do it. It was in the middle of the fire season. I was still traveling around fighting fire, and I just – I wanted to be known in the agency for my firefighting abilities not for that. Of course, now that’s changed, but they kept telling me you’ve got to do something or this will happen again or maybe he’s doing this to other women or … you know and I was thinking about his family and his children that I knew that he had and I didn’t want to ruin anybody else’s life, but I instead of confiding and letting the police protect me or going through the judicial system which I just didn’t trust at the time,
I confided in a – in a friend on a hot shot crew that I was really good friends with and I knew that he knew my assaulter, or I knew that he knew who he was because they both lived in Arizona.
He told me, “Abby don’t worry we will watch out for you and you give us the word and we will take care of him and we will keep him away from you.”
It’s a bunch of brothers in this job, it’s a bunch of big brothers that are just amazing and like their little sister, they made sure that I was protected and we would go to fires and if he would be around, they would – they would eat their meals with me, they would just keep an eye on me, and they did put him in check couple of times, and had to pull him aside and so they were my justice. It ended up being kind of a brotherly justice that I had and it felt like at least that was something that I did have to protect myself and not let that man know that it was known about and he was put in check. But then in 2013 that friend of mine and his entire crew except for one of them, they all died in a fire.
STEVE CURWOOD: They all died in a fire.
ABBY BOLT: Yeah. So, they all died in a fire in 2013, and I think I was just devastated from that already, but then that was my justice, and I also lost my justice and my answer to how I responded to the assault. So, that tore me up pretty bad.
PHOTO: Abby Bolt and Jesse Steed standing by a truck.
PHOTO CAPTION: Abby Bolt, left, with Jesse Steed, who was the friend and colleague in whom Ms. Bolt confided about her 2012 sexual assault. Tragically, in 2013, Steed and his entire Granite Mountain Hotshots crew, except for one team member who was at a different location, perished when they were overrun by the Yarnell Hill wildfire in Arizona. ( Photo: courtesy of Abby Bolt )
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Here is a direct link to the photo of Abby Bolt and Jesse Steed that is embedded in the article above…
https://www.loe.org/content/2018-03-16/USFS-Jesse_Steed_and_Abby.jpg
DND…
I didn’t really have any questions for you regarding this… but I guess I just wanted to say two things…
1. If this is the first time you are hearing about this, then you deserve to just add it to your memories of your dear friend Jesse Steed and have it serve as even more proof of what a fine, upstanding man he really was. He was exactly the kind of man that Abby Bolt knew she could trust, and he was exactly the kind of man who did not hesitate to HELP her in her time of need.
2. If this is NOT the first time you are hearing about this, then anything you can add to the ‘story’ would, of course, be great.
Followup… ( FYI )… More about Abby Bolt….
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Forest Service Battalion Chief ( Abby Bolt ) resigns in open letter to the Secretary of Agriculture
Published: April 9, 2019
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/04/09/forest-service-battalion-chief-resigns-in-open-letter-to-the-secretary-of-agriculture/
From that article…
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A wildland firefighter resigned last week after serving for 22 years in the U.S. Forest Service. Abby Bolt sent a letter to Sonny Perdue, Secretary of Agriculture, and Vicki Christiansen, Chief of the Forest Service, saying the resignation was effective immediately. She had risen through the ranks to the Battalion Chief level, becoming a District Assistant Fire Management Officer on the Kern River Ranger District of the Sequoia National Forest in California.
In a version of the letter that was posted on the Up in Flames website, Ms. Bolt said Forest Service leaders “failed to demonstrate moral courage by adhering to high ethical standards, and choosing the difficult right over the easy wrong helped me in determining my decision to resign.”
Ms. Bolt told us that the version of the letter sent to Mr. Perdue and Ms. Christiansen was more detailed ( than the one that was publicly released ). “I named names and listed some of the disgusting behavior occurring by my supervisors and supported by employee relations. My attorney thought it best [to hold] some of that back from the public version.”
She said she created the “Her Brotherhood” podcast and the Up in Flames website, “So that hard truths could be told and people could safely share and comment anonymously without being retaliated on. I hope it inspires others so that when they feel they are going down in flames, they instead fly up.”
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Abby Bolt’s “Up in Flames” online website…
https://www.abbybolt.com/upinflames/
Abby Bolt’s ‘mission statement’…
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In the workplace, there are countless people at all levels who are quietly enduring decades of inaction creating a toxic work environment for all.
Unfortunately, leadership is continually sweeping “it” under the rug. The “IT” being harassment, violence, retaliation, bullying, exclusion and mobbing, rather than addressing these situations swiftly.
Up in Flames is a controversial movement focused on calling out the bureaucratic bullshit and replacing it with grit – courage, resolve, strength of character, intestinal fortitude, determination and conviction for doing the hard right over easy silence. Our society is witnessing harassment, violence, retaliation, bullying, exclusion and mobbing on a weekly basis. Additionally, they see a lack of the necessary grit to handle the situation thereby weakening their companies, leadership, and employees.
Our mission is to effect change so that corporate, military, agencies, etc. have the necessary strategies and techniques to operate in an environment free from all forms of harassment, violence, retaliation, bullying, and mobbing. The most effective leaders approach problems and situations through a lens of opportunity to:
– Empower people to stand up to easy silence
– Inspire the importance of moral courage in the workplace and beyond.
– Provide the guidance and necessary tools to uncover the bias within
– Fear the silence more than the noise
– Ignite a workplace culture change to overcome the toxicity and develop a system of accountability
– Address toxicity in the workplace
– Provide the necessary resources to grow and thrive
Join us to make voices heard, build awareness, increase the density of connections within the organizational cultures so that signals are so clear, so prevalent, and so frequent, that denial becomes impossible.
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**
** STEPHEN COLBERT: “IT IS BETTER TO KNOW THAN TO NOT KNOW.”
Just moments ago… Late Night talk show host Stephen Colbert took a moment to talk on-air about the terrible helicopter crash in California this past weekend which took the lives of Kobe Bryant, his daughter Gianna ( Gigi ), and seven other amazing human beings…
John Altobelli
Keri Altobelli
Alyssa Altobelli
Sara Chester
Payton Chester
Christina Mauser
Ara Zobayan
Stephen talked about how he has a special connection to the circumstances of this tragedy, and was lamenting the fact that because black-boxes are still NOT required for helicopters… the families may never know what happened to their loved ones.
He was making a ( personal ) plea to the NTSB and anyone else investigating this incident to please do the BEST they possibly can to determine what really happened… because it MATTERS.
Here is some of what Stephen Colbert just said…
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I lost my father and two of my brothers when I was a boy to a plane crash that was also in heavy fog… and one of the terrible things about that shock and the heartbreaking, unreal nightmare quality of someone huge in your life who just disappears… the center of your love just disappearing in that moment… is not knowing what happened.
Nothing will possibly improve this tragedy.
Nothing will take away the heartbreak and the pain from these families… living with it for the rest of their lives… and in need of support for the rest of their lives for a pain that will never go away.
These people are now in misery.
Why compound their misery with MYSTERY about what happened to their loved ones?
It is better to KNOW than to NOT KNOW… because if you KNOW… you can possibly STOP this from happening to someone else in the future.
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“It is better to KNOW than to NOT KNOW… because if you KNOW… you can possibly
STOP this from happening to someone else in the future.”
I’m not a basketball or a sport fan in general, but I usually do watch the Super bowl each year, or at least the last half. So…I don’t have a connection to Mr. Bryant on that level, but from a human level I have been devastated by what all of the families of the victims are going through and now what will be a lifetime of pain and grief that will never be far from their thoughts multiple times a day. I have great respect in the NTSB and confidence they will establish with near certainty what occurred.
And as I wrote years ago, the NWCG should be required by congress to establish a similar protocol by those kinds of people to investigate all fire tragedies. Agencies and people who are responsible for events such as catastrophic system failures on fires should never be allowed to investigate themselves.
I personally believe that in the end, it will be the hubris of Kobe Bryant that will be the primary cause of the event. He was accustomed to a lifetime of special privileges because he was a great basketball player and so the rules that applied to everyone else just didn’t apply to him. But I can still grieve his loss to his family and the world, but I am just as broken hearted for all of the other victims and their families, friends and loved ones. It all goes way beyond sad, in part because it was such a preventable tragedy and could very easily have been prevented.
Flying in helicopter is an inherently dangerous thing to do. They just lost an entire family on vacation in Hawaii with their pilot a couples of weeks ago and that happens on a regular basis. And yes…I know that traveling in vehicles is also dangerous, but with standard precautions like wearing seat belts in modern cars built for safety, it is vert rare to have everyone killed in an accident. If I remember right Lady Diana wasn’t wearing a seatbelt? And I haven’t heard anything about the terrible accident involving the Bear Town hotshots, But that situation sounded like it was a man made disaster rolling down the highway at a high speed looking for a place to happen and they found it.
I’m sure both they and Kobe Bryant had a long histories of prior bad acts with good outcomes as RTS always writes But do that enough, I think it will catch up with you eventually.
I learned a new word of the day last by watching the news. And that is “through line” and is a word a had never heard before.
I know know that is the correct term to use when conn cling the dots of the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill. There is a through lines running between all of the that connect to each other so they should be studied as a block by studying their through lines,
And by doing so, I believe that future disasters like those fires can be prevented, but only after we have accepted their through lines and study them based on their commonalities and common denominators.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Through_line
Through line; a connecting theme, plot, or characteristic in a film, television series, book, or WILDFIRE DISASTER etc.
“despite the differences between the two seasons, there are still through lines”
We all owe a deep debt of gratitude, as do the friends, families and loved ones of the GMIHC, to DND because he has now bought the primary through line into full view for the everyone to see, study, evaluate.and learn from and therefore, we now have a fighting chance to keep it from happening again and causing more tragic and needless deaths of more of our precious windlass firefighters.
“We all owe a deep debt of gratitude, as do the friends, families and loved ones of the GMIHC, to DND because he has now bought the primary through line into full view for the everyone to see, study, evaluate.and learn from and therefore, we now have a fighting chance to keep it from happening again and causing more tragic and needless deaths of more of our precious windlass firefighters.”
Well said!!!
Woodsman
well said.
Woodsman,
I am grateful to all of you. If it weren’t for you brave humans I would’ve stayed dormant in sadness and anger. After finally asking for help something turned, deeply within. I will continue to remember and write as much as I can when I can. I appreciate yo and the whole herd on here and behind the scenes. Gracias….
WTKTT,
Amen and thank you for being a good human being sir!
To know how these events occurred ignite the spark of change and the blessing of closure…
DownhillIndirect
Thanks to WTKTT and DND for some good questions and answers to more insight to the situation that baffles the mind as to how 19 wild land fire fighters could place themselves in a situation that seemed impossible for men of any common knowledge of wild land fire fighting and safe ways to fight the fires.
It is sad to hear about Jesse since all evidence he fought against the idea and the risk and had been out of sorts with Marsh’s methods and attitude of do or die by taking on assignments other crews had refused due to their excessively dangerous situation. It is obvious that the men would be alive today had Jesse his druthers and had not fell sway to Marsh’s harsh methods.
Intimidation is a terrible thing in situations where the control freak and risk taker can cause unnecessary risk and death to his crew and self by strictly obeying orders. And somehow the basic training idea that a wild land fire fighter “must strictly obey orders on a daily basis”. Yet where was it in that GMHS posted creed that said a wild land fire fighter must strictly obey safety rules on a daily basis?
The truth is Joy and I are alive today because I refused that risk. But then I was not under the impression or brain wash if you wish, to strictly take orders from anyone. So I was not about to drop off in that dead end canyon as I was watching a mega fire and knowing circumstances to get into a bear wallow of brush with a fire that would change. The distance and intensity of that Yarnell fire was such that you had to know upon reversal it would be overtaking you in minutes, not even ten from where it stood as we left the departure point they made off the two track after we departed the scene.
I have been perhaps too harsh on Marsh. With his experience and wild land fire training I had always thought he should have known better. I have nothing but life in the out back so to speak and a strong will to live. Yet I did not have to strictly take orders from anyone that day. (Common sense would keep you out of that dense box canyon with that fire raging nearby)
Yet I understand the situation–I did strictly obey orders in the military. Anything less will get you a court martial and if not the Brigg, even a dishonorable discharge. And I have come to think that the wild land wild fire fighter faces pretty much the same situation. He may not get the Brigg but he will face an equivalent of a court martial by his boss and peers and even a dishonorable discharge is very possible.
For those reasons, I think Marsh has some mitigating factors. Someone had to ask or likely order Marsh to go toward Yarnell, and from the Ranch House you could even see the men with the naked eye on that two track. Go there and you will see what I mean, especially if they had white or Yellow Hard Hats or Yellow clothing. I have to believe some one told Marsh to bring the crew down and was watching the whole time. The problem is, a boss in a pickup has no clue to the density of the manzanita he would have them come through, yet he does know that Marsh will follow commands just as he always has done in the past. He has said to have saved the 7000 year old Juniper (nobody knew how that Juniper saved itself for thousands of years before the arrrival of GMHS) and risked his crew where others would not and the crew survived.
Changes surely will be made. If not, the same old same old but with more needless homicides.
A quote from Journalist Jim Marrs:
“The truly skeptical must evaluate experts-particularly government experts-in the same manner they would any individual: Has this source proven trustworthy in the past? Unfortunately the government’s track record in veracity is shameful. UN Ambassador Adlai Stevenson, based on information given him by government sources, assured the world the the United States had absolutely no connection with the ill fated Bay of Pigs invasion in 1961. The public was told there was “light at the end of the tunnel” in Viet Nam in 1968 just prior to the communist Tet offensive. President said he was not a crook just before he resigned to avoid impeachment. In 1975 the public was told there was a serious shortage of gasoline, yet the tanks in Texas were filled to the brim. In 1980 President Ronald Regan gained office by promising to balance the federal budget, then ran up a 2 trillion dollar deficit. President Clinton admitted he smoked marijuana but said he never inhaled it. The list is endless. If the government were an individual, nobody would have anything to do with him.”
It appears that the government propensity to falsify and lie is endemic and extends into even the Forest Service and such. Certainly there must be some that have better scruples as representatives of the people. But are they as scarce as the seem to be when we look at situations such as we saw in the false portrayal of the Yarnell events? And how gullible is the public to accept these fabrications? I would say quite because they want to believe the experts and have neither the fortitude nor the true information to contest the fairy tales.
If there is one thing the power mongers have down pat, it is the methods to manipulate by fear, threats and disinformation and other black psychology the masses. With the corporate backers, when a citizen questions the official ;presentations, the political hack will say he sees no evil.
Still, with the many posts and people speaking of the true events that killed the GMHS and the many that were ill affected by the retardant–then there may be a response. Politicians detest the loss of supporters.
My German Shephard, Whitey is back. Amazing how well a dog can sniff out the good from the bad. They keep life simple–and if God doesn’t allow dogs into heaven then find me a planet that does.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2020/01/28/What-Are-We-Missing-Here-How-Can-It-Possibly-Be-Only-These-Wildfires-Ended-Up-Archived-March-2013-In-The-Entire-History-Of-Arizona-State-Forestry-Division-Why-Were-These-Specifically-Chosen-And-What-Made-Them-Archive-able-Do-Any-Of-You-Think-Any-Other-Wildfires-Should-Belong-In-The-Archives-What-Makes-It-A-Historical-Event-Or-A-Disaster
I am jut curious if you can name other fires I should be putting on my blog- click on link
thanks-
oh Caples RX burn —
https://images.app.goo.gl/RLbENLohTRrdUDueA
“So how long is your extended administrative leave?”
Is that how it will play out???
(man sitting in a jail)
Joy,
Is your question addressed to WTKTT, DND, RTS, The Woodsman, everyone in general, or me?
Because if it addressed to me, there are only four fires that should be archived and are critical to our discussion here pertaining what happened to the GMIHC and why. And of course those are, the Loop, the Battlement Creek, the South Canyon, and the Yarnell Hill,..IMHO.
There is also a subset of important fires that are very useful to our our discussion here pertaining to understanding what happened to the GMIHC and why. And those are, the Doce, the Clearwater, and the Holloway. Although this is a new thought pattern (for lack of a better word) for me. So right off the top of my head, (for lack of a better description) I might be missing some, so if someone would like to jump in here, I’m all ears (for lack of a better description)? IMHO.
Now…as everyone knows, I like to go down rabbit holes (for lack of a better term) as much as anyone does and more than most. So if there are some other fires that interest you, by all means, you should include those as well. For example, RTS, as a Professor Of WF Safety, has a very eclectic list of fires he is interested in that don’t interest me other than in passing (for lack of a better description).
For example, I find the Esperanza Fire very interesting if I wanted to point to example of why we (Wildland Firefighters) would be a lot better off, IMHO, without Hybrid Firefighters (or Chimeras if you prefer or want to use an Ancient Greek Mythological reference to describe a being made up by assembling different animal parts to make something that is a freak of nature and an aberration) or the Champ Swiss Army Knife instead of a good skinning knife in our lives.
And that is because, I just don’t think hotshot crews really should be used to clean up after hurricane Andrew, find pieces of the Challenger that are scattered are thousands of square miles, or to clean up The Pile at Ground Zero in NYC. But…you can just call me old fashioned and stuck in the past, or “back in the day” if you would prefer.
Because you know…I don’t really care about trees with doors and windows in them any more than I care about regular trees and I cut them down by the hundreds and never gave it a second thought just because they were in the way of accomplishing our objectives.
And I am a huge fan of just dropping back to the next ridge and firing out the entire drainage in between us and the advancing wildfire even if there is an subdivision that has been built were it shouldn’t (in the drainage) have been built in an aberration called Wildland Urban Interface. That’s not my problem…that’s a problem between home owners who want to live in the backcountry and still be able to commute to their downtown office job and their homeowners insurance company.
Or it might just be the problem of the homeowners if they wanted to live where they had no business living and couldn’t afford to have a homeowners insurance company assume their risk since none of them were that stupid because when their actuaries calculated the odds of a catastrophic event occurring there…it was off all of their charts, graphs and spreadsheets.
I could go on and on…but why? Although I do know one thing IMHO, and that is the phrase, “risk a lot to save a lot” is an anathema to my way of thinking and makes me disgusted whenever I read it rather than furious because time has cooled my anger.
And that is because whenever I hear that phrase my mind immediately conjures up an image of 19 flag draped body bags in a burned out drainage surrounded by a group of very foolish men who didn’t have a clue about what had just happened and why. And in their arrogance and stubbornness…they also weren’t interested in either hearing much less learning the truth. But please forgive me because once again…I digress.
And no…I haven’t forgotten that one of those men standing around those 19 flag draped body bags was a retired structural fireman and the father of one of those young men whose bodies were shrouded by those bright and colorful American flags and were laying inside heavy duty industrial non porous plastic body bags.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2013/07/08/crew-recovery-yarnell-hill-hotshots-bodies/2497831/
And if I could, I would like nothing more than to change the outcome of the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster, but that is way beyond my power to do. But I do believe we have the power to change the outcome of the next hotshot disaster fire if we could honestly admit and then study the primary causal factor of the Loop Fire of 1966, that killed 12 El Cariso Hotshots, the Battlement Creek Fire that killed 3 Mormon Lake Hotshots and the Yarnell Hill Fire that killed 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Because you know…once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times is an enemy action (or a pattern). And as I have written many times, I believe we would have to study the South Canyon Fire (that is usually mistakenly called the Storm King Mountain Fire) that killed 9 Prineville Hotshots and 5 other wildland firefighters in a separate study because most of the secondary causal factors were very similar, if not identical to the other fires I like to write about, but the primary causal factor was very different.
And all of this time I thought the saying was, “fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.” I guess we are slow learners? Or as President George W. Bush said, “There’s an old saying in Tennessee, I know it’s in Texas, probably in Tennessee that says, ‘Fool me once, shame on … shame on you. Fool me… You can’t get fooled again!'” Or as like to say, “Elect me once, shame on you, elect me twice, shame on me.”
Because you know…after 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots were burned to death on the Yarnell Hill Fire, no wildland firefighting insiders said, “I can’t believe that happened with Eric Marsh in charge…not him!” Nope…all of the wildland firefighting insiders said a version of, “I saw this coming a mile away with Eric Marsh running that crew. It was just a matter of time before it happened. The guy was a walking and talking catastrophic incident just looking for a place to happen and he finally found what he was looking for on the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
So whose fault was it anyway…really? Which reminds me of the Scorpion and the Frog fable except with a twist. A scorpion, which cannot swim, asks a frog to carry it across a river on the frog’s back. The frog hesitates, afraid of being stung by the scorpion, but the scorpion argues that if it did that, they would both drown. The frog considers this argument sensible and agrees to transport the scorpion. Midway across the river, the scorpion stings the frog anyway, dooming them both. The dying frog asks the scorpion why it stung the frog despite knowing the consequence, to which the scorpion replies: “I couldn’t help it. It’s in my nature.”
Except in my adaptation of this fable that has been told with countless variations in both the animals involved and the lesson it teaches through the centuries and many different cultures and languages, we would ask Marsh why he did what he did and he would answer, “I did it because I’m a habitual, or in this instance…a terminal fuck up. What did you expect me to do?”
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Scorpion_and_the_Frog
Please forgive me because now I’m rambling, it’s past my bedtime. No wait…I don’t have a bedtime because I’m retired. Everyday is a Saturday and every night is a Friday night where I can stay up as long as I want. That’s what happens when you are either good enough…or lucky enough to win your race with life. I was both. 😂 And I strongly encourage every career Wildland Firefighter to follow my example because the view from my Lay-Z-Boy is awesome!
Do I sound like a Richard Cranium? Probably, but I’m trying to make a point here…it’s just that I just have forgotten what it was I was trying to say. Oh yeah…I remember now. “Hey…lets be careful out there.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=_pIkkzDagsY
Well, Ye Olde Hotshot Crewboss, I mean this when I say that “rambling” was fucking inspirational! Only suggested edit I have, and it’s probably due to problems keeping the lid on the old fury (same problem I sometimes have), change this:
“…we would ask Marsh why he did what he did and he would answer, “I did it because I’m a habitual, or in this instance…a terminal fuck up. What did you expect me to do?”
There’s a better way to adapt this fable to the current context. I can’t put my finger on it but it’s the only adjustment needed.
Your analysis is brilliant!
Woodsman
Of course, you didn’t ask me to be your editor…so who the hell do I think I am anyway?
Well…thank you and I am always open to constructive criticism and editing and therefore, I would really like to know how you would phrase it because this is for after all…what will be the greatest tome ever written about wildland firefighting.
I am currently working on a follow up rambling comment to add to last nights rambling comment I woke up with in my head this morning (an epiphany moment as it were) but I keep rambling and I having a hard time phrasing exactly what I’m trying to say by coming to the point. But I’m going to keep at and see if I can land this plane.
Oh…and one more thing as I have written before. There is no doubt in my mind that Eric Marsh was a brilliant man and a highly capable WF who both demonstrated and had great potential which is evidenced by both his comeback in a relatively small, and notably clannish and closed WF culture. I have never heard of anybody else doing achieving that feat to the extent he did and by his creation of a highly respected and developed wildfire academy from his living room. None of that was easy and it is beyond the abilities of most people including me. So…
I believe Eric Marsh was a very complicated and highly conflicted person.
The Challenger was probably just scattered over hundreds and not thousands of square miles. But the point is, it was scattered over a very large area and as much of possible of it needed to be found so the cause of it’s catastrophic failure could be determined to prevent it from ever happening again.
Which reminds me of another Jimmy Hickman story because everybody remembers where they were when they first learned of the “obviously major malfunction” of the Space Shuttle Challenger, to quote the Mission Control announcer.
In my case…I was sitting in the annual Southwest Region (R-3) FIRE meeting as the Forest Dispatcher from the Santa Fe in the Swiss Village Lodge & Inn conference room in Payson, Arizona. Payson of course is the home District of the famous Payson Hotshots which was run by no other than our one and only…RTS. The longest serving hotshot crew boss in hotshot history…OMGosh!
Anyway,…I was sitting in my usual place at the very back of the room while I tried to remain mostly out of site and out of mind of the Regional Office Overhead. And so I was in a good position to see R-3 Director Of Fire and Aviation Management Jim Hickman, who RTS and I both agree was a great leader and was still very much a physically imposing man in his later years as he would have been as a smokejumper, and who definitely exhibited “Command Presence” whenever he was, while doing whatever he was doing at the time, as he entered the large conference room through a side door in the middle of a presentation with tears streaming down his face as he took command of the podium and audience to inform us that we (as a nation) had just lost the Challenger in the sky during a failed launch. And then after his very short and to the point announcement, Director Hickman turned and walked back out of the stunned and silent room with tears still streaming down his face.
Gee…there’s a novel idea. Make sure we honestly identify the exact cause of a catastrophic system failure to make sure it never happens again. Hint…hint…NWCG which is comprised of complicit and habitual liars.
Whoops,
That should be out of sight, not site. I just want to correct as much as possible to reduce the opportunity for RTS to ridicule me because everyone knows how fragile and vulnerable I am, especially because I overshare so much with you people (Tropic Thunder) who are indeed among my closest friends and confidants.
“Well, Ye Olde Hotshot Crewboss, I mean this when I say that “rambling” was fucking inspirational! Only suggested edit I have, and it’s probably due to problems keeping the lid on the old fury (same problem I sometimes have), change this:
“…we would ask Marsh why he did what he did and he would answer, “I did it because I’m a habitual, or in this instance…a terminal fuck up. What did you expect me to do?”
How about:
“I did it because of my constantly evolving target fixation on proving to everyone that a city fire department CAN have not only a bona fide hotshot crew, it can be the best one ever! We’re Granite Mountain!”
Of course, it’s kind of hard to put those kinds of theoretical words in his mouth because I’m learning more about the man as time goes on here. It just seemed like more of a McDonough type phraseology. EM seems to have had much more depth and complicated personality.
I felt I at least owed you an attempt at an edit…
Woodsman
Yes…as usual you are a better wordsmith who possesses a superior vocabulary to mine, so your edit for that passage of what will be the greatest tome ever written about wildland firefighting is hereby adopted. Plus…you eliminated my F 💣, which is always a good thing. Thanks!
I wish both you and WTKTT would just go ahead and write my book for me from the detailed outline I will provide and then not only will my book be much better, it will be done much sooner. Or at least the part that talks about the YHF Disaster while I continue to provide the backstory and color, which is what I enjoy writing about.
Wait! Don’t adopt it. I think it sucks! Should have kept my mouth shut. Your train of thought was fantastic. Truly well done and insightful.
Hmmm…🤨
The Woodsman in his post is like the old Obama gig from the White House Correspondents dinner where the black comedian stood behind Obama and played his alter ego as the angry Obama translator after he would say something that was controversial very calmly and in a measured way, except you know…in the reverse.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6OQAHcB72dg
I’m a natural born Anger Management Translator. Haha!
To All,
Lets go back in time almost 7 years. The crew had been working on fires for 28 days in conditions most would crumble in. When a supervisor tells you “You have the day off tomorrow”, that means time to relax, let loose and disconnect. It’s a great feeling knowing you will have some time off after busting your hump and I remember spending a lot of time with my “Brothers” of the clock knowing I could sleep in the next day, completely disconnected with family and friends. Adults are able to go listen to music at a watering hole or chose to read to their kids they haven’t seen in a month or more. They can make a romantic dinner in the back of a pick-up truck or just go home and sleep.
The 2:1 rest cycle is in place for a reason. After days of crappy food, minimal sleep and overly arduous conditions the human mind dulls until a re-set occurs. That re-set never happened. A system is in place that should catch any order for a crew or engines that hit 14 days without a day off or 21 without the approval of multiple officials and a unanimous decision by they crew if a order is placed during R&R. ROSS sees all and knows all. Even though it was talked about SWICC and other solo person(s) over-rode the stop-gap and went direct with EM. Understand people this kind of action does not happen and if it does it is quickly shot down. Contrary to un-popular belief there were multiple IHC’s and type 3 engines that were available and fell within the 2:1 rule not 10 hours away when Schumate was the I.C.
Yes it was a busy year but, there were resources that were available even though the public was told “We couldn’t find anyone. I remember when we did 21+ day trips and how badly we felt after we were released. The 2:1 work/rest was put into play to stop things like the YHF from happening. Going under the radar and taking an assignment after you release your crew under the understanding they were unavailable was a bad decision. No one is going to outright say, “I’m not going Supt., I’m tired”. They will fall in line and hope for any easy assignment and hopefully no-one gets hurt or worse.
Worse did happen, worse started 48 hours before the deployment/burn-over. Schumate was awake for 30+ hours. It’s widely known that after 24 hours of being awake it equals .08 BAC in the human body. Bad decisions, minimization and under estimates now become a reality. I don’t care if Schumates boss was counting every penny. Again it was said that “Everyone” was always talking about Yarnell/Peoples Valley as the next big fire as it hasn’t burned in 80 years. Lack of sleep, lack of SA and the lack of command presence set the clock for June 30th 2013.
It still boggles my mind that after 28 days on a fire the crew was still sent to Yarnell knowing they were spent and that the potential for extreme fire behavior mixed with the growing WUI weren’t enough for the States higher ups to cancel the crew early and ask for all available crews within a 500 miles radius, again there were many that could’ve been there by early Sunday morning if not sooner. Schumate handed off 20 pounds of dog crap in a 5 pound bag to the late incoming resources that thought they were going to have this little fire wrapped by COB Sunday night.
It was no secret that EM didn’t get along with a lot of other firefighters or thought they weren’t up to speed. Rance Marquez was quickly shewed away from his ground and no-one from the general staff corrected that. I believe the Rance (with 25+ years of experience) saw the “Shit show” early, especially after his public denouncement occurred. Most if not all of the resources were assigned to PV because of the structures. Only a handful of crews and apparatus had the backdoor in Yarnell, the “moth to a flame” effect. The monsoonal effect was not only known to the personnel but made know in a special transmission by the IMET/NWS. The cumulus clouds were rapidly building 40-50 miles away and within the sphere of influence to Yarnell in regards to Outflow winds.
Being reactive and not proactive set the stage for minimal resources, minimal air support and not being able to understand, asses and take action as the cumulus clouds now became sheered off anvil heads. Virga and lightening were witnessed and recorded by multiple people meaning, “The eminent collapse and downdrafts from these cells that only Arizona?R-3 can produce daily, at the same time, everyday when Monsoon season begins. Trigger points set were un-realistic and blew by the command staff before they knew it. A lot of firefighters saw the danger hours before and made it a priority to prepare, they lived. Once Peoples Valley started to take a beating and the firing begun (see DW’s FOIA remarks) chaos now became the pace setter. The outflows began and chased personnel to their safety zones and now we have head fire moving at 406 chains per hour (or more) 1 chain 33ft or 13 paces for me.
The rest was a catastrophe. Sesame/Shrine streets were used as holding lines initially and any firing done on any part of those streets added more intensity than most will ever see in their lifetime in the fire service. The crew buggies and other apparatus made it into town with minutes to spare. Looking at the forensic testing done on what was believed to be firing equipment (See DW’s questions posed to the office doing the testing FOIA) solidifies that people thought “Everyone” was in a safety zone and out of harms way. Not having communication with crew-members, lookouts or adjoining forces under these conditions have and did cause the head and laterally fire movement to intensify. Cell phones are not a safe option and they never will be especially if the information needs to be relayed by all and to all.
Accepting that “Our comm’s just suck and we will just go with it” was a causal factor to the incineration of all living things in the path of this fire that set records for Rates of Spread. I talked to two people that were tasked to light fire heading south until they got close to town. They had no idea that people and equipment were still in harms way. One of them will never talk about it again and the other has made himself unavailable. When everyone thinks that evacuations have been made and all personnel are clear sometimes firing takes place. Nothing could’ve slowed the forward rates of spread or stopped the final outcome with the choices, orders and human factors that overrode clear thinking. 28 days, no rest. 48 hours no sleep no command presence. No communications, unclear tactics. We Had videos, now we have clips or “Oops the video has been removed”. Now that FOIA’s are in clear view the questions lye with the records.
The missing time, the factual and sealed recordings can be made known. Too many things once thought of as a myth have now been shown through FOIA’s. There isn’t enough money in the world to keep this tragedy sealed away from the families, friends and to the public. However hurtful it may be to hear or watch it needs to be done for multiple reasons. Accountability, training and closure, without these things the cycle will repeat itself. The search continues and the “Show goes on”.
https://youtu.be/_ExqqNoQ7jE
DownhillIndirect
Downhillndirect,
1. I just want to say that you are doing a great thing and I support you 100%
2. The crew EARNED their time off and they didn’t get it. I’m getting the context of why now.
3. That ROS is impressive. That means that flame front was moving at 446 feet per minute, 7.5 feet/sec, or 5.075 miles per hour. A chain is 66 feet. (80 in 1 mile)
3.5 SWCC denied the order. “Someone” pulled some strings and pushed it through anyway.
4. There were so many failures baked in the cake on this one. Thank for helping to get this all hashed out. You read my email. I’m good. Let us all bring these puzzle pieces together. You’re a huge part of that.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
As soon as I posted it I realized I said 33 feet for a chain when I knew it was 66 feet so my math is off but still those rates of spread are off the charts thank you for the kind words let’s bounce ideas off of each other what do you say?
DND
Downhillndirect,
Absolutely.
Woodsman
Woodsman,
Thank you my friend. I am just like any other person that knows that some, in very high positions believe we aren’t able to process the truth. I also believe that when the truth is made clear it will change everything. Look at the archives just from Arizona alone, so many close calls and burn-overs that ended terribly or will haunt those that were there to see them happen.
The west coast, R-3, R-4 and R-5 have a countless library of recorded fatalities and near misses. If or should I say when the YHF is truthfully revealed for what factually occurred, that means all of the other fires that were presented with “Less than the truth” will exposed for the same purposeful mis-direction we were given for all of the fatality fires just in the past few decades, regardless of Agency.
If I had the power to do so I would sponsor an Inquiry that puts Dr. Ted Putnam and a staff of his choice, is given all access to everything sealed, redacted and purposefully hidden from the public. To the corrupt, Dr. Putnam is a scary expert knowing he and his trusted staff would carefully and truthfully present facts that occurred on June 30th 2013. I would bet the moon that it would be polar opposite from the fodder we were left with. The old adage “Crap in, Crap out” is un-acceptable.
As were learn more from the FOIA’s, assumptions are becoming realities. The Agency that paid for the investigation(s) is the same one that has diverted truth for years. This type of management stinks of the type of control over its people in “The Hunger Games” or “Fahrenheit 451”. Knowledge is power that wasn’t meant for the rank and file or for anyone that would question this kind of behavior.
“Only the Brave” would question the validity of the “Final Report(s). Firefighting in any form does not have an “Acceptable loss rate” so please, anyone, tell me why the mainstream public would be steered into a direction that infers there is acceptable loss. The only acceptable loss I know of is vegetation and areas deemed unsafe to defend. Basics are the foundation that if followed closely will ensure each FF makes it home unscathed and better informed.
More to come, I’m getting worked up,lol.
DownhillIndirect
Get worked up
Pump up the volume.
https://youtu.be/ULdCat1B_FE
DND,
Playing catch-up here because I’ve been pretty focused working on our 2020 AHFE paper, so finally getting around to thanking you.
Thank you so much for all that you have been sharing about the EM and GMHS dynamics debacle in the making, setting the stage for the Doce Fire, and ultimately drifting into the epic failure of June 30, 2013.
You (we) do have the power to investigate these former fatal and near-fatal wildfires. Unfortunately, it’s going to take A LOT of MONEY $$$$ to sponsor any kind of (un)official inquiry that puts Dr. Ted Putnam and a staff of his choice with allowable access to all the State and Federal Public Records that have been sealed, redacted, and purposefully hidden from the public.
The corrupt and deceitful, which clearly includes the US Forest Service that FUNDED WITH FEDERAL FUNDS the AZ State Forestry SAIT, and therefore the SAIT-SAIR , loath Dr. Putnam, fear his expert knowledge, and those of us revealing the truth (and lies) of the YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy here on IM and elsewhere on the YHFR website ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ).
We would then carefully, completely as possible, and truthfully present the facts and conclusions of what occurred on June 30, 2013, as a result of the rogue firing operation(s) that occurred along the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor.
These wildland ” friendly fire ” incidents include, at a minimum, the Mann Gulch (MT-1949), Loop (CA-1966), Battlement Creek (CO-1976), Mackenzie (AZ-1994), and Yarnell Hill )AZ-2013) Fires . Friendly fire, from a wildland fire perspective, would be fire that is innocently and without ill intent or malice, (un)intentionally ignited below another Resource.
As far as the truth (and lies) of the many other fatal and near-fatal wildfires in our Nation being further investigated, there is going to have to be a dedicated group (or groups) as dedicated as those on IM and YHFR to tackle that quagmire.
Thank you again DND and please keep sharing
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on January 28, 2020 at 6:17 pm
>> DownhillIndirect ( DND ) said…
>>
>> Sesame/Shrine streets were used as holding lines initially and any firing
>> done on any part of those streets added more intensity than most will
>> ever see in their lifetime in the fire service.
>>
>> I talked to two people that were tasked to light fire heading south until
>> they got close to town. They had no idea that people and equipment were
>> still in harms way. One of them will never talk about it again and the
>> other has made himself unavailable.
>>
>> We Had videos, now we have clips or “Oops the video has been removed”.
Quick question.
Do you still have the computer which you said once contained a copy of at least one of the “manual burnout” videos?
I know you said the “state goons” ( Arizona Forestry people? ) confiscated that video once they found out you had a copy of it… but do you happen to actually STILL have the physical computer which once contained it?
I think if anyone learns anything about a wild land fire that kills people, it is to every time you see evidence you must immediately copy and file that material. Otherwise it will be redacted, removed and hidden or destroyed so it will never be found. This is as bad as the CIA UFO documents released about what they have yet 141 released documents are 90% blacked out. And here we are talking about issues that are historic in value and have nothing to do with National Defense and everything to do with improving wild land fire fighting safety and saving lives. Would this not be a criminal act considering it endangers future wild land fire fighters?
WTKTT,
I don’t. But I do have access to one of the men that admitted to burning to the south towards Helms. I’m going to call him tomorrow. I feel like a moron for changing phones and not saving the documentation there’s more that’s coming out and I really want to ask you a few questions at some point most likely tomorrow when I have the time to really think about it regarding your Crossfade and all the work you did I had some topographical questions towards Helms into the north of Helms
DND
Thank you.
If you DID still have that physical device ( computer OR smartphone ), I was just going to point out ( and this is for EVERYONE, in case it’s relevant ) that just because you DELETE a file on any device with digital storage does NOT mean that it’s actually GONE.
It can still ( possibly ) be ‘recovered’… even YEARS later.
that is right wtktt
the blueprint is there.
Lexipol (Risk Management Attorney and Specialist Gordon Graham) presents Firefighter Free Speech: What Fire Departments Can and Can’t Do to Restrict Free Speech
Lexipol Mission Statement – “Over more than two decades, Lexipol has served first responders and local government officials. What began as separate efforts—a website for police officers and a customized policy manual for law enforcement agencies—came together to form an entire risk management solution for public safety and local government. As we expanded beyond law enforcement to serve fire, EMS, corrections, and city and state government, we added services such as such as online training, grants and an electronic policy management platform.
“Today, we serve more than 2 million public safety and government professionals with a range of informational and technological solutions to meet the challenges facing these dynamic industries. But through all the changes, our mission remains the same:
“To use content and technology to create safer communities and empower the men, women and organizations that serve them.”
( http://info.lexipol.com/firefighter-free-speech-exp-ty )
Hopefully, the link above works to access a download of this paper. If not then GTS the highlights and you may have to sign-up fort his worthwhile website
From the article…
——————————————————————————————
In all fire department free speech cases, very little is black and white.
Sound department policies are a must—as is the exercise of common
sense and individual discipline. Even law professors who study First
Amendment issues for a living cannot agree beforehand how a certain
case will be decided. So, the best advice is to play it safe!
——————————————————————————————
“So, the best advice is to play it safe!”
In other words… “STFU and you will probably keep your job.”
Seriously?
That’s this guy’s ‘best advice’ for firefighters trying to exercise their rights to freedom of speech?
The basic flaw in all his ‘assumptions’, throughout that article, is that someone who feels a need to speak out actually CARES about whether they “keep their job”, or not. Sometimes doing the right thing is far more important than just keeping some job.
I have always been there for people
today was the day I would have needed someone there for me versus listening to another’s trash glazed version of their values and goals
I am really sick and tired of people not getting it.
Really.
I did my best-
always tried to continue but I am at my end in certain paths in this
and is there ANY human being left with a FUNCTIONAL vcr that I come watch old films of my father in law – mine is on the outs and the folks I am around are too preoccupied to their own stuff- I need some down time of “remembering”
people I am around know I have an old pc and yet feel ok to turn the electric off and hard shut my pc — nice huh —
I will travel far too just name when and where—heading there.
https://youtu.be/fNLhxKpfCnA
https://youtu.be/SlPhMPnQ58k
Thank you Jack, Lesa and Bruce for showing me adventure as a teen and giving me the stamina and for my husband and his family- thank you- and the many moments I shared learning the old ways through your eyes Sonny- we both know what is happening right now as we are at this very moment paralleling the same stuff… remember to just embrace what it is… I am.
See you on the other side my friend.
To the world, you trusted in the wrong leaders especially some in the Fire World …in God’s time the changes will be …
God Bless …
oh and anyone who does *67 before your calls to scare people- there is tracking ways to identify you so keep it up —
Praying for you boys who feel keeping it in and deal with it your own way-
This is the year anyone tied to Caples RX Burn will be made known and again Forensic Weather is the now and the future and not much more time for you all to play your shenanigans
Joy,
This post is really for those who may be suffering from Past and present Traumas. PTSD is PTSI. The I means injury/not disorder either from one big trauma or repetitive traumas stuffed far away from the people that love and can help. I highly suggest this wonderful group of professional Clinicians of Trauma.
https://www.ptsrretreats.org/retreats-1
trauma is a powerful and strange beast that hides out and surfaces when we least expect it. This group of loving human beings have perfected the approach and create a literal “Clan” within the group of First Responders, or civilians that attend. It is powerful and protected by the highest levels of Anonymity and HIPPA rules.
The approach is in a safe setting and healing occurs at a level I can’t explain. If “Goosebumps” is a way to explain then “Goosebumps”.
At some point we all need help, I know I sure did. Today I write to let you all know that kindness, love and compassion are the keys to opening the door in regards to the PTSI door. So many hurtful things have happened to people I love regarding the YHF and how we investigate this subject. People have been terrible to those that have honestly tried to do the right thing.
This week I challenge all of you to protect your words, be mindful of how we interact with each-other, our families, friends and co-workers. All of us carry something that can be overwhelming.
I am happy to have a forum like this to talk about the issues that have and can destroy great people. More YHF stuff later tonight, thank you all for listening.
DownhillIndirect
Here is a testimonial from one of America’s greatest heroes–Edgar Mitchell, Apollo Astronaut and 6th man to walk on the moon. I should think it should be very revealing to some and a bit of wisdom of the forces we face and the knowledge that some highly intelligent humans have grave concerns for the future of our people and our planet. This is excerpts from the Book tiltled Unacknowledged by Stephen Greer MD. pp.201-201
Edgar testifies speaking about Alien Craft and Bodies:
“Yes there have been ET visitations, There have been crashed craft. There has been materials and bodies recovered. And there is some group of people somewhere that may or may not be associated with the government at this point, but certainly were at one time, that have this knowledge. They have been attempting to conceal this knowledge or not permit it to be widely disseminated.”
(Don’t we know the game from the Yarnell review?)
“As to whether it’s been kept secret–It’s been there all along. But it has been the subject of disinformation in order to deflect attention and to create confusion so the truth doesn’t come out. And that’s been used consistently for the last fifty years or so: Weather balloons over Roswell as opposed to crashed craft of some sort? That is disinformation. We have seen that for fifty years. And it’s the best way to hide something.”
Mitchell continues:
“It is becoming very clear that the way we have conducted ourselves as stewards of life on planet Earth is wanting. We have environmental, global problems that are bringing civilization to a crisis. And people don’t want to hear that, but it is slowly becoming obvious that it is true. And so, this knowledge of who we are, how we manage a planet, how we fit into the larger scheme of things, is a very important question.”
People such as Stephen Mitchell, Niel Armstrong, Buzz Aldrin have access to much inside knowledge and carry much wisdom. They speak not like politicians or FS people that are trying to do the very things Mitchell talked about. He had written this stuff not long before his death on Feb. 6, 2016. The Book by Dr. Greer is published 2017.
But it points to the propensity of certain government people that continue to redact, disinform, and proclaim to the public their concocted view of what happened at Yarnell. Someone knew how they wanted the story of the deaths presented and so they distorted reality to satisfy the public that the whole ordeal was but a tragic accident. The public buys it just as they for years have bought the UFO jokes. Yet if you read that book and several like it and believe the testimonies of Generals, Majors, Colonels, an top NASA people instead of a few CIA owned debunkers, then you likely will begin to think the UFO thing over. I have–still with some lingering doubts, because we want to believe this stuff can’t be real. Even the death of the 19GMHS had that ring–this can’t be real.
It is only facts, photos, and testimony form that quality of people that we can trust. It behooves us; however, to check the facts for ourselves–that we have done at Yarnell and even witnessed in action–we know the hired debunkers of the truth have failed us. And this not only concerns the truth of why the 19GMHS crew is dead but also the many deaths and illness caused by the retardant dumpings on and next to residences throughout the little village of Yarnell.
Edgar Mitchell’s remarks make me want to salute John Daugherty. I have read his work and know how determined and hard employed he is at getting at the truth–not only at Yarnell but issues also concerning the destruction of the environment and people’s health through out the world.
I hope some of the young ones read his material and follow his example toward making an environmentally better and safer world.
I need to correct that –myth that secrets can not be withheld from public view. People say how can government keep a secret such as NASA with so many people. For one thing the Atom Bomb was kept secret until it was exploded and even then they said an ammunition dump blew up but knew they had to eventually let it out. The Stealth Bomber was kept secret for 12 years until the Feds decided it was time.
But admittedly a few did come out on NASA revealing they were vetting photos of things on the moon and UFO photos. But NASA’s denials made most people not believe the whistle blowers. But Astronauts and Generals talking? If you get a chance read the Unacknowledged endorsement of the book for MD Greer by Apollo Astronaut Dr. Brian O’Leary. It is certain to raise your eyebrows and perhaps look with askance at how information is being handled in our government.
And to explain about Mark and UFO’s–he thinks they are works of the Devil. My other son is even worse–Please Dad, don’t talk about UFO’s around my kids! It isn’t my fault they are here and the Pope can’t keep them out. The fish hat is in honor to Oannes –the alien fish God that came out of the sea and taught the Mesopotamia’s some math, agriculture, and civil procedures. I am not sure what the Irish Gods and Goddesses were working on at the time. Jesus said he was hanging around as well at the start of things so may have been in the area as well. Do you have your space suit ordered?
https://www.thehour.com/news/article/Arizona-lawmaker-wants-fallen-officers-families-14986118.php
The deaths of 19 Arizona wildland firefighters in one 2013 incident showed just how much such a mass casualty event can cost.
The ongoing yearly cost for state pensions alone for the six permanently-employed Granite Mountain Hotshots exceeded $425,000, according to a report by the Legislature’s budget analysts. The city of Prescott, which employed the crew, is on the hook for a major increase in pension costs because of the tragedy.
The families of all 19 qualified for the federal death benefit, which that year was $328,000. The total federal cost was $6.4 million. Their work life insurance paid out another $550,000
This particular cost to the COP wouldn’t have occurred if they had done it right, or even better, not at all due the differences in culture between a city fire department and a natural resources agency fielding type 1 hotshot crews. This culture difference contributed directly to a crew containing leadership with a chip on its shoulder constantly attempting to prove itself or “one-up” the traditional crews turning it’s risk management attitudes on its head.
Risk a lot save a little <== cost a whole hell of a lot in this crews case.
Since I am posting some about UFO activity– I looked out my back porch–my dogs are missing and usually here at this time so there is a UFO red, green, blue and white colors. But bright and low–I had gone back in a half hour to see if the dogs were back–they dig under but I will have to open the gate since they usually do not remember to come back to their escape route. That UFO is not an orb as I generally photograph them but has a definite flat side. It is too far into the Mexican territory to be US. Do I have aliens in the area–well I am not one to signal them in. I don’t trust the lizard men–too many of them in political offices these days and I know how they are working.
I will send some photos to Joy–maybe she will post them on her website–but I think not because of religious ideas they might be of the devil works. Hell it might even be the devil himself in one of those. If not a brother to the Bush or Trump clan. You can bet they like golf.
So for the nay sayers here is just one Astronaut, not to mention Dr.Brian O’Leary, Gordon Cooper, Buzz Aldren, Alan Shephard–all testify they have seen alien space craft–some even saying they photographed and saw craft on the edge of a crater on the moon but the photos went to NASA Military branch. And here is Ben Rich, Director of Lockheed Martin from 1975-1991 in 1915 saying on his deathbed that Aerospace engineers have long been working on backengineering alien space craft. This confirms Col Corso who said he was dispersing alien technology to Lockheed Martin, Boeing and others of pieces of alien craft, specifically material from Roswell and other crashes that have brought forth some of the fast advances in technology. We have gone from wagons to walking on the moon in less than 100 years. Mr. Ben Rich said what you see traveling across the desert or flying in the sky is 50 years behind the technology this country has on hand. Devils or not, those aliens have some fine technology–and the pitiful thing is that the American public is kept in the dark about the truth.
Edgar Dean “Ed” Mitchell (September 17, 1930 – February 4, 2016) was a United States Navy officer and aviator, test pilot, aeronautical engineer, ufologist and NASA astronaut…
correction Ben Rich died 1965—I have them moving in a time machine as well–a definite technology to consider. They have anti-gravity technology down, but I don’t think the time machine yet. Somehow time can be warped–but it takes some aliens or Jesus on that one. But alien visitations–good or bad–I am not sure I agree with Greer–he believes they see us on the threshold of destroying the planet–well you see Trump poo poos the idea of climate change yet if you look at some cities with oxygen levels down as low as 6% you better think how he might be badly mistaken–not to mention the polar caps dissappearing and huge holes in the ozone layer. Folks–we will be having to live under metal roofs if that ozone layer disappears That direct radiation without being filtered though ozone is a killer. Yet there are bacteria that thrive in it but not in lower atmosphere. No one knows how friendly these virus forms are but they know they are there. And with aluminum and retardant polluting our waters, species extinctions are at least 10,000 every year. But keep up the phosphates, oil pollution and chem trails Mr. Trump–Make America Great Again or extinct the whole world? And the alarming thing it is but the worst of it all is that as Ben Rich said we have technology 50 years and likely more ahead of what people are allowed to know. We definitely know we have technology to provide free energy that would bring these cities back to 22% oxygen and give relief to billions of poor on earth. But power and corruption, redactions, lies, omission of facts, and greed are prevalent these days. Can the aliens be that bad-?-perhaps but it is not the ones Trump is screaming about. It might be the shape shifting world Corporate and Banking 1% that have little concern except to foster more wars and oil production so their power and wealth is maintained.
My opinions, but too much evidence to convince me otherwise.
1995 I will eventually get my time machine to put me in the right decade.
Something about climate change, here is the World Wide English version of the translation of the plague of the fourth angel. REv. 16:9 and there about–The fourth angel poured his bowl on the sun. Then the sun was given the power to burn people with fire
I think the fourth angel is hanging around here., Angel meaning the shining one, the light bringer and the watchers. What people do not realize is that the issue involving global warming can reach a threshold where it can not be reversed. This is the best estimates of some of the world’s best scientists by use of computer models and the actual testing done in the Artic regions by the best scientists from many nations–over a hundred involved. Canada, had quite a number, Germany, France, US and so on working on core samples of ice and how the industrial revolution and pollutions have affected changes.
Two planets –Mars and Venus at some point in the past had water and an atmosphere very similar to earth. Something changed and now the surface of Venus will melt lead. Mars no longer has the rivers and lakes once there.
Humans have a small range where we can survive–too much heat, too little oxygen or too much cold can kill. Temperatures above 140 degrees with humidity will bring on hypothermia within 10 minutes. So when global warming takes place, your best bet is underground. The Aussies survive the extreme heat by living underground and this is just hot desert areas. So the underground cities for all the President’s men and those running the Corporate World. When Oxygen levels dip below 11% you best find an oxygen tank–levels below 11% are deadly but of course by electrolysis, you can separate water into hydrogen and oxygen–so you can still figure a way to breathe by dragging a tank around with you.
The environment is a very fragile thing. Life has had at least 5 extinctions with the last one related to the Mexican asteroid strike causing a mass extinction of there quarters of all species on earth.
What is the worse thing is that there is science to stop the use of coal and oil pollutants and provide free energy. Yet the Corporate elite rather risk the planet than face the loss of profit and control.
Here is part of an article by Richard Lee, ex Marine, columnist from the Richmond County Daily Journal about Chem Trails: Goggle Chem Trials for full article. I posted this because I am out doors a lot and see this so much. So much goes on in the government circles these days but people are kept in slave mode so that few have the time to look at what is important. Of course media generally does not address such issues. I did notice how they mentioned that Trump promised to have FBI files released from 911 to the very concerned individuals associated with the many deaths at the twin towers. He reneged, however, since he said that it might hurt Saudi relations. Well of course the only reason the main media would release even that information is because they want to stick it to Trump. But it does show Trump’s willingness to avoid truth because of oil profits and political bias. That is bordering on being a traitor I would think by not supplying the “American people the facts about who was really involved in the 911 attacks, and can it really be because some of the politicos here are part of the reason the FBI will not let us know. Of course their excuse is that it is a National Security Issue–how would that be? People might demand some action?
But here we see the chem trails just as Robert Lee describes them and what tests have proven. The idea that Mt. Shasta has aluminum levels in the snow that would kill small creatures ought to be told in main stream media–but you never hear about these things–Trump is right about Fake News–but he says that in regards to himself–not about the environment or the avoidance of real issues important to life on the planet.
Robert Lee says:
“Do these people really think we are that stupid? The Air Force rebutted chemtrail theories more directly and said that the theories are nothing but a hoax and they have disproved the existence of chemtrails. They also stated that the chemtrails are nothing more than ice crystals. I can see this, maybe, on a winter day but not in July at a height of 500 feet. All this was stated in their fact sheet. The spraying seems to be more constant and the heaviest over the United States and western Europe. In Asia, Japan and Korea are being sprayed. The only country in the area that is not being sprayed at all is China. If you lean toward the conspiracy theory side, then you should not be shocked with the rest of my column. What this spraying is know as is: the genocide spraying operation.
There have been many independent tests done over the past five years and it does not look good. It has been confirmed that all around our country a cocktail of dangerous and extremely poisonous chemicals are being dispersed. This includes barium, cadmium, nickel, mold spores, yellow fungal mycotoxins, and the best — radioactive thorium. This is not the total list. The one chemical that is being sprayed the most is aluminum. It can cause all sorts of health problems. The chemical primarily attacks the central nervous system and can cause everything from disturbed sleep, nervousness, memory loss, headaches and emotional instability.
With that said, have you yourself not noticed how people have changed in recent years? We see every day more and more people dying at a very young age. Look at the mental state of people. Look at all the different drugs that we are using just to maintain our minds. One thing to add is this: Water samples on top of Mount Shasta, California have aluminum levels that are high enough to kill small rodents. The levels are off the chart with the highest being at 4,800 times the maximum contaminate level for drinking water. In a recent snow sample, the level was 100 times the level for aluminum in snow.”
Sonny says: The way the Military deals with the poisons spread in the air is exactly how the Forest Service deals with the retardant issue. No matter how many facts are out there about the poisonous nature of the retardant, they keep their heads in the sand. You can not discount the lives at Yarnell that were lost due to the retardant dumps, nor the hundreds of thousands of fish dead due to phosphates, nor the dead ocean zones, nor the seepage ruining fresh water tables and sources, nor the fact that the EPA is spending hundreds of millions of tax money to clean up these abandoned mines to attempt to alleviate the pollution problems.
In fact there are some in the FS that say we need to really change do more retardant near residences. Well they did that in bunches at Yarnell. What ever happened to a government for the people and by the people? Has it become a closed system of cronies that get G-string ratings they believe are God ratings so that they form a secret society even in such things as forest fires and FBI and CIA files related to who took down the Twin Towers. Someone is always wanting to hide something from the public eye–and why should they be so afraid to have the people know the facts?
Charlie,
I had no idea that this song that myself and the group of friends I grew with would mean so much as we began to heal from the loss of Jess and his guys. Well, It may be to rough for some but it explained exactly how me and a few in our tight group felt. Please watch the video first and the quoted lyrics will make perfect sense. I’m here to talk about retardant and the death it has been proven to cause. Watch the video first then we can go into the silent killer, Retardant.
https://youtu.be/eRV9uPr4Dz4?list=TLPQMjYwMTIwMjD3nyyGPl4t7w
“Where do I take this pain of mine, I run but it stays right by my side, so tear me open, pour me out, there’s things inside that scream and shout, and the pain still hates me, so hold me until it sleeps. Just like the curse just like the stray, you feed it once and now it stays, now it stays. So tear me open, but beware there’s things inside without a care, And the dirt still stains me, so wash me until I’m clean. It grips you so hold me, it stains you so hold me, It hates you so hold me, It holds you so hold me, Until It Sleeps. So tell me why you’ve chosen me? Don’t want your grip don’t want your greed, don’t want it…. I’ll tear me open, make you gone, no more can you hurt anyone, And the fear still shapes me so hold me Until it sleeps.
The first time I was hit by “Slurry, Retardant or MUD” was on a fire that was so established a billion gallons of the stuff wouldn’t of stopped the fire or the loss. Six P3-Orioin (Areo-Union) four propped JADO assisted planes did 3 fuels cycles refilling every time didn’t make a dent in the direct or pre-treatment of fuels that dictated a coverage level of 8 (a.k.a. all doors open the, the “Full-Monty). What we were hit with however light or heavy left sun-burn like splotches on our skin regardless if we rinsed off immediately or had to wait without a water source to wash it off with. The vapors that were emitted off of the fuels treated took our breath away from unhealthy amounts of Ammonia mixed with water and phosphates that are/were protected by secret trade patents. Fortunately my Leadership were/are extremely intelligent people.
Not only did we see foliage die but countless fish in all areas of the country including Alaska and the south eastern states. Every time we filed “Safe Nets, internal safety documents” and “Internal exposure reports.” They fell on deaf ears until one report made it to the Regional/D.C. level safety operations manager. The reply was, “Phos-chek and other highly tested fire retardants have shown no short or long term safety concerns for wildlife, human beings or fuel beds” The pictures of dead fish from multiple places didn’t sway the tangible proof of the toxicity nor did it slow the machine that dispersed millions of gallons mentioned in the report my leaders provided. That was 14 years ago.
The card up our sleeve was a AT pilot that we knew had known what he was dropping was completely unsafe for people, firefighters and those near the Ariel assaults that continued. Deck hands that loaded these AT’s were mandated to wear Tyvek suits and respirators pre ,during and post loading. If they had a spill they had strict protocol for clean up and were to dispose their PPE in BIO-waste containers that were shipped away weekly. So, WTF is an understatement then and now. The deck/re-load crews wore Tyvek suits and respirators on the deck and near the ten (10) thousand gallon mix tanks but the public and firefighters on the ground wore Nomex without respirators?
Every-time our AT pilot friend spoke up he was quickly threatened with write-ups or suspensions. Thank goodness he was initial attack qualified and assured we were completely clear of his drops knowing he was dropping “Cancer” out of his P3 Orion daily. Some may assume crews don’t work in it are wrong. Not only was the retardant not effective but the fire burned underneath, through it or spotted over it meaning a hand-line was to be cut right in the middle of it. Dry or wet it still struck to everything. Wet or dry it was nearly impossible to breath normally while work was done. Countless “Safe Nets” and complaints were/are filed each year and are hidden within the hosting agencies internal records.
I had two friends that were diagnosed with skin cancer that was tied into being overly exposed to a known Carcinogen. They are alive but are missing chunks of flesh in areas protected from sunlight, i.e. lower backs, chest and one person on the rear end. Of-course, Plausible-deniability was the defense from the Agency as well as the makers of all of the retardant companies. 1/4 were treated from an occupational exposure standpoint. We all got and still do feel like these agencies and companies are condoning the “Acceptable Loss” theory not meant for firefighting or for the public that had their water sources contaminated without any attempt to reverse the damage.
The YHF. Please correct my numbers Joy, RTS or Sonny but Yarnell and its sister communities had 652 people in its small village, am I right? Well, if what I read is accurate 200+ citizens have died after the fire and or have illnesses that directly come from the PPM (Parts per million) exposure to know carcinogens that come directly from the chemicals in retardant. Being a past high level medical professional, Organophosphate poisoning(s) include an initial high dose of medications some/most can not afford. For now acute treatment one must undergo are these… Atropine, Pralioxime(2-Pam) and Benzodiazapines. These medications are to be used together in a known exposure. Those that do not know have less of a chance to reverse deadly outcomes including Cancer.
Ok some would say an Organophosphate, aren’t those pesticides, yep they are. However; within the fertilizers used a portion contain these substances. Companies are allowed to hide trade secrets or patented ingredients. Have you ever read the 2-5% inert or undisclosed portions on a fertilizer bag? Same ALS medications are administered. For those that get a low but constant dose are in danger, we have witnessed that. Water tables are the biggest conduit to spreading the foreign and dangerous chemicals to the public.
The responsibility falls upon the agency contracted with the companies that drop retardant. We have all learned that accountability isn’t something either group is willing to take. Charlie I implore you to keep learning and exposing the “Fallout” so to speak, it is going to continue until they are forced to change the compounds that rarely work to begin with.
I promise to fulfill the requests I get from all of you, answer honestly and be of service. I know that Firefighter safety starts and ends with the re-boot and accountability of the important and somewhat forgotten basic ROE’s through honest and informed training. Making all performance evaluations known from a real-time data-base known to all ordering units Nationally utilizing the system contractors use, VIPR. Supporting the FOIA work being done as we speak to expose the real and truthful occurrences on fatality fires (YHF, etc). And finally holding the sources accountable that continue to dump billions of gallons of unsafe and toxic retardants into,near and in areas occupied with civilians and the watersheds they/we rely on. Until these very important issues are mitigated safely we will lose FF’s Civilians, watersheds and the eco-systems we live in or near. I am in a good place today even though my family has had a difficult time. We all have more power than we think if it is used for the betterment of mankind.
DownhillIndirect
Thanks for the post DownhillIndirect–Yes the census for Yarnell was 645 for that year as I rremember. It is quite tragic the amount of sickness and death after the retardant drops. I am glad to hear that some know about the toxic effects of the retardant drops. It is a situation that is more prevalent than people can imagine–what you wrote about in Alaska surely is world wide since the retardant is anywhere and everywhere there are wild fires or residential fires. The business is so huge and world wide that the chemical companies, mines, retardant people and distributors are making huge sums–this stuff costs from $4 to over $8 per gallon. So a 10,000 gallon load can easily cost $80,000. I don’t know what costs are added to that but the costs of deaths and illness has to be in the millions. One heart attack alone can cost a minimum of $250,000 and much more–so you can imagine all the heart attacks alone caused at Yarnell were way beyond the cost of the drops. And lives snuffed out can not be measured in dollars. And to top it all off, the retardant did little if any good at Yarnell concerning saving structures. The wind factor up as it was must have also been a challenge for the pilots–much more endangered there.
They get away with this because those in the Forest Service that are distributing these toxins act like it is an inert substance. But if you understand the danger, then these men/women involved in distributing the poisonous concoction must know as well.
I am glad you posted on it because you deal with it constantly. The people and the wild land fire fighter need this information. The greedy pushers of the retardants will continue with their propaganda–and you see now, since it is based mainly out of the country, it makes it even more difficult to make these people accountable. To my way of thinking they are murderers, plain and simple and they know it with no conscience. And working for a corporation–they can say well I am just doing my job, and they tell me it is safe.
I believe in Karma. I had 12 head of cattle when I had that place by Jay and Undeens–there was all private land but unfenced where I kept my cattle, although I was feeding them as well. This desert does not have much grazing value. The rancher that had grazing rights on some federal lands somehow managed to round up my small herd and pen it up in a place where I could not find them. Finally Jay Tendell found them in a small fenced area–they were all dead but one and it died before I could get it to water.
I learned from Jay that since, this same rancher had 15 head of his cattle shot dead by some guy that belonged to green peace and had in mind to kill lots of cattle–he thought he was doing good to keep down methane I suppose. But this was some years after this rancher had killed my herd and had not even the decency to water them or tell me he had hidden them. The fellow that killed his cattle was tracked and killed himself since he did not want to go to prison–but I saw Karma at work there.
I really believe there is enough evil to go around these days. I saw the cover up at Yarnell as an evil, just as I see the retardant dumps that do their damage to lives, environment and oceans as evil. I am certain that Karma will get these people–one thing I hope it is stopped–maybe it will save some Karma some work.
Today I hiked a good 6 miles, but I paid for it. I had rested for three without a hike since I was getting to where I was suffering to do even a couple hundred yards. These chemical distributors and greedy bastards are not my friends. I give them no honor for the nasty things they are doing to the health of people, even their own friends and family. And the terrible things to the environment only add to their criminal behavior But these people justify their behavior, just as the FS and State justified the deaths of the 19.
.
Oddly, I did meet that Rancher when I had that first property where the Triangle Marker Joy and her friends went to see–the UFO thing she photographed and maybe put a photo on her site-a spot where some aliens landed according to the espensive brass cast plaqued and a war between these aliens started. It is out in the desert on a vacant plot of land that I ran upon by accident while hunting rabbits.
That rancher had run me down–but he is actually the son of the man that killed my cattle. And he told me the same story Jay told me–he said he was worried who I might be and if I would be like that guy. He said they caught the guy but he committed suicide.
I told him he had no worries–(he would have no idea who I would be since the cattle killing happened some 30 years before on his Dad’s part). But I told him well that guy did not commit suicide–you shot him. He chuckled and said no I would not do something like that. Anyway after he saw I was no threat, he and his Foreman left–but I wasn’t invited to dinner.
I listened to the Song Downhillndirect posted–The devil is in the works for a lot of things these days. If anything has proven it is that our system has slowly devolved into a Corporate fascist system. Democracy is non-existent in this country with world Corporate, Bankers, Financiers and the like controlling the strings. So many Presidents have pushed the New World Order thing to the point that we are there. But education, main line media, with politicians that need only open their mouths to know they are liars, we have a hard time as public to find much truth these days.
The presidential offerings are Billionaires that represent Billionaires and World Profiteers. The public slaves will continue to pay huge taxes and the Billionaire class will continue to pay nothing. A people representative has a slim chance to win an election when the Billionaires own the media–media is not a free enterprise–Thanks to Reagan and others it was turned into a stock market business owned by such huge enterprises as Viacom, Disneyland, GE and the like. Trump has one statement that is correct -there is Fake News–they fail to tell you he is nothing more than another Billionaire promoting his golf courses, Trump Towers and financial dynasty and paying no taxes just like the other Billionaires. In the final analysis, these people take care of themselves and their cronies and will do minimum for the masses they usurp.
I grew up poor–but I never saw it that way. There were times I was having to cut out old tires to try to resole my brogans. Food was scarce–Dad was that real old time prospector and he believed that he would strike it rich. He did find and work some good mines–but nothing with those streaks of gold that you could pan out to turn in for cash. I would go to class and kids would smell smoke and complain–It was me–Mom was cooking breakfast on a camp fire and you get smoked up standing around one. It was probably a good thing since we were hauling water and baths were only once a week.
Yet there were times in later years when Dad sold his property in Las Cruces for $100,00o that he had money–but again that money went into his mines and building a rock shop–the hard way–he hauled loads of rough lumber and I helped him build his rock shop and trading post. That was eventually plowed under during the Eisenhower road building campaign. We watched it go down with D-9 cats pushing it up into a rubble pile. He was offered $2500 for the damage and property which he refused–he had spent that much on a water well. He got nothing. We were back on the desert, pulling out boards from the rubble to build a floor for a tent and living off the campfire again.
It made him bitter–he had laid in the trenches in WW1 as a machine gunner and had somehow felt he had deserved better treatment by the State and Feds. He died of cancer not long after the ordeal.
I have come to see that the State and Federal organizations are not human. They are enterprises just like any other Corporation. Someone makes decisions but no one is to blame because of the Corporate umbrella they hide under. That is how they get by with so much chicanery. After all who do you blame? The buck is passed and once it goes to the top it is passed back and forth. In the end, if nothing else, the Corporate lawyers take charge and into the legal nightmare you go. People suing the Corporations or Government find themselves in legal nightmares that can last for 10 or 20 years and Corporations are known to concoct reasons to sue because you have sued.
Will the people see change in Government and Corporations. If history tells anything the situation will only get worse–manipulation and control of the masses has and will only increase. If you think another billionaire will represent you then you must have a billion or better on your bank records.
I do think, however that not all hope is lost. If enough people get educated, the World manipulators will have to listen in certain instances. The main one being a boycott of their products. In the case of retardant, that is impossible since States and Government have the say on that. They are in the business themselves to one degree or another–and like the Doctors that get free paid vacations for pushing a special Pharma, these fellows in office not only see the Lobbyists almost daily but you can bet get some nice Bennies as they enjoy dinner and coctails while listening to the silver tongues of the Lobbyist promoters.
We try to be realistic. It is sometimes difficult in this world of black magic, black psychology, black opts, and black out redaction papers. There is truth but we will have to dig for it. And if the Yarnell killing of the 19 and 200 more from retardant, you will need perseverance and time –likely more than many of us have before we see the wrongs corrected. But we will know that the younger generation will benefit from our efforts.
Most of my life I never believed in Flying Saucers and Aliens. I believed the Air Force–there is no such thing, just swam gas, ball lightening and mistakes.
When I was at Yarnell I would see lights streak across the sky and return that would make the fastest jet look slow. I would often see unusual lights and once Joy came around she started photographing them. When she blew them up you could see some unsual things such as lasers and other craft surrounding them. I called them UFO’s correctly but I believed they belonged to the Government Black Opts projects. And I am certain some of them were.
But it was not until of late that I began researching about sightings that I began to realize there is substantial proof, not only of thousands of actual daytime photographs of craft but thousands of reputable witnesses including many Military of high rank, Police Officers, Scientists, Reputable Citizens, and even of the majority of Astronauts that have accounts of these saucers.
One of the many accounts was about a two minute cut out where it was supposed communication of Armstrong and Aldren were cut off. However, there is an alternative Military communication channel that has the voice of one ot the Astronauts saying there are two saucers on the rim watching us–recorded by a ham operator who was recording and listening to the alternate channel. They had even been followed by a craft as they had circled the moon–that part was allowed by NASA but the report of the two saucers with them watching us part was not. However, Aldrin was later stated to have had a nervous break down and perhaps that was an excuse to disparage his remarks, I do not know. But I can tell you if you had seen two saucers already there then you would have some pretty heavy emotional responses and it would cut into your life thoughts very deeply.
So after a former Nasa Chief of Communications Officer retired he said yes it was a true communication, even though NASA continues to deny it. We have noticed that after Apollo x1, even though we had another mission ready to go, we have not gone.
Paul Hillary, former Canadian Defense Minister said the UFO and Alien information is even more highly classified than was the Hydrogen Bomb information. The Defense agenda of Canada was hightly classified and it has always been shared with the US Defenses. So this man has no reason to lie–he is retired and can speak now. He says that the Roswell incident was true and there were alien bodies recovered.
When you look at the credentials of these people reporting they all have PhD’s, are military heroes, and can pass the highest of secrecy clearances available. They have impeccable reputations to get to be astronauts, Defense Ministers, work in NASA and so forth. Why would you even consider these people to be like politicians,–able to lie with impunity.
So when Stanton Friedman, with his book about Aliens are here as a Nuclear Physicist presents evidence and is backed up with his forward from a former Astronaut, and the former worker for Ministry of Defense, Nick Pope says yes–the Rendlesham incident was true, and the man in charge of that Military Installation did see with his own eyes an alien craft land near the base so that one of the men even walked up and touched it—then you begin to understand that there is more to the story that like Yarnell, it remains blacked out.
Stanton Friedman has given hundreds of talks about the UFO phenomenon. He gets a laugh at holding up 141 pages of documents that are about CIA documents on UFO’s and Aliens with every page blacked out so that only 10% can be seen. Even then, it took him eight years to get those documents. People with power just do not want others to know, and what after all can be so secret about UFO information–unless of course they are real and someone wants to hide the truth.
I have come to the conclusion after all these years that the aliens are visiting–not you or the common man. And they would not drop off inot a football stadium and step out. Can you imagine a being that looks like a freaking lizard stepping out or even one of those grey things portrayed on Movies. There would be pandemonium and likely the cops or someone would shoot them.
Reagan Started the Star Wars Program. He hinted at something when he said can you imagine how the nations would get together rather than fighting each other if there were an Alien threat. Gordon Cooper with his impecabble reputation even wrote to the UN saying they need to prepare and talk about the possibilities of Aliens and what they would do.
If the abductions say anything and there are thousands reported–there are some of these screwballs that are not nice. They force medical procedures and implant something that we do not understand. Dr. Roger Lier, now deceased had them tested–a rod like thing he removed from several people claiming abductions–and the tests said it was of like meteorite material something not of this planet. And those tests were backed by the Los Alamos lab–a place you can know has the equipment to identify elements and isotopes.
Well it is food for thought–the Yarnell redactors ought to feel better now that they know they are not the only government agency that redacts important information. And do not laugh at UFO believers–your astronauts have seen them–who do you prefer to trust–government redactors or men who have reputations that any American Citizen would trust.
We lost the best of the best tonight … my father in law …
RIP
🙏🥰😘😢👨👩👧👦👑🕶🐾💐
At 330pm I was telling someone that Johns father is going to pass before I leave tomorrow
He was healing good and in good humor ..no reports of him ill but my core felt this peaceful energy.
I was putting the last of my gear in garage and noticed a baby scorpion 🦂 and thought all my stuff has been there since Sunday …my luck a bunch were born and scurried into my wool warm gear. Maybe not. At least I saw the one so when I pack or unpack I have situational awareness
5:44pm AZ Time (8:21minute call) … they thought it was odd I knew before they called but I explained the peace I had was so nice…we all are sad because he was a fine man. I am in travel mode come morning so it is hard to go do what I am doing and not be there for the very person I admire and love and adore 🥰 My family is going to do areas I would normally do so I can stay the course.
DND… you are making history … I mean huge …I am getting feedback saying it is about time someone is doing what you are … keep up the wonderful comments. People that are long time retired are pulling out their reading glasses and handkerchiefs from back pockets and are talking at their screen at you as if you are there … they are like RIGHT ON … everyone is listening 👂 They are treating their screens like it is a close football game … talking aloud at the screen. Nice!
He passed on at 630pm NJ time
At 2am I awoke in the most peaceful flow of tears
No emoticon could show the joy it brought me,Gary.
Yet as I watched my father in law with my sister in law … embracing
This song played but the Bobby Darin version yet the Veronica Lake in me wants you to feel this version versus the rock n roll …
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3arD1tEabQ
We only have this moment
Make it the best
I would say make it memorable
But with all the chemicals out there
How many of us will make it thru without dementia or Parkinson’s or some insidious disease or pass ourselves
So remember … until we are not able … but smile 😊
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qd-89QwiAk8
The one that played at 2am
The Veronica Lake in me never fades …
To all … God has shown me the bests of the best in my lifetime and the worst of the worst …
Have a great week as I go into travel mode … send more records later in the week.
For my sweet mother in law
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bw5h-WPYBQ
I spent yesterday and today sifting through thousands of archived records at the State Archives and its tedious
I will pull up Horseshoe 2 Fire but I need a day of nothing after all that digging
Interesting tidbit…Arizona State Forestry for first time ever archived records March 2013.
I will soon make a post to show which investigative fires were archived and good to know when I got the NO from certain entities
I am coming back soon to you and saying YEAHHHH BABY…seriously tired
I have not vanished. I just have not been on email since last weekend.
Oh…so Arizona State archives say they are the authorities on their site but the lady gave me another impression today … like grey areas ???
If any typos
Sorry
Just typing and not looking…
Travel tired mode.
Lots of typos Joy–but they are on my posts. I screw up the Queen Bee’s English. You can not get rid of those reptilians–they have their hooks in the blokes of England. Well everyone needs someone to admire perhaps.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 21, 2020 at 9:24 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> He passed on at 630pm NJ time
I’m so sorry for your loss, Joy.
Sincere condolences to you and the entire family.
Thank you for the condolences
Sorry for your loss Joy–We have lost so many friends and relatives it is hard. I share your grief.
Joy when you get a chance to segregate all your photos of the presence of alien craft it would be a good thing. Take a look at some of the testimony of Gordon Cooper–he is in his late 70″s now–I am not sure when the documentary was made but it had to be some time ago since I know that some of the people such as the Dr. Lier who removed implants has passed on. and astronaut Gordon Cooper died at the age of 77 in 2004–so that documentary is about 16 years old. You know that there have been many photos and documents revealed since, although strangely what the CIA has about aliens and UFO craft is still highly classified with only highly redacted material released and you can imagine what they do not release. But even if you view the documentary and see NASA footage of UFO off the Moon you will come to have a slightly different view of the phenomenon. The photos you have of a mother craft with smaller craft about are similar to that in the documentary. Pass the information on to your Mom–I know she will enjoy and appreciate. The name of the Documentary is CLOSE ENCOUNTERS; PROOF OF ALIEN CONTACT. If you can not believe Gordon Cooper and half a dozen astronauts and scores of pilots, Generals, even the retired Director of Canadian Defense not to mention thousands of sightings–then those photos presented ought to help your disbelief.
I had over the years doubted what I knew happened to me but could not explain and like many could not imagine life from other places visiting here or even being here. But a Roper’s poll shows that above 70% of the people believe in UFO visitations and that the government has been doing a Yarnell.
There indeed has been a stigma attached–but the scientists have already located over a thousand ecoplanets–and they estimate that one in five Suns has a planet that has such a planetary body–meaning there would be billions of planets capable of life. We are a small spec compared to the volume of planets that can support life and considering that our solar system is at only 4.5 BY compared to the general age of 15 BY, we are certainly in the early stages of development.
When you look at the age of the Dinosaurs, you come to realize there are going to be some strange creatures out there. And we have so many stories and conspiracies–so many that have been true and committed by our Federal Agencies that we know we are kept in the dark about too much. When Cooper talked about the small 30ft saucer that landed on the flats and a camera crew took photos up close in less than 50 yards–you know this man is not lying–those photos were confiscated immediately by the Feds and who the hell has them—I don’t know but you can bet that famous man had no reason to lie–nor did any of the others involved.
So yes, I did get a few photos of this strange phenomenon here–Strangely I am out doors nearly every day on hikes –well the last few days no because of health–but I should have seen these things in day light–whatever they are they do not want to be seen in daylight but don’t mind lighting up the skies at night and hover–well you even have a few of those photos. Some of my photos show a round object and others show an object that has a dome and is not round. So these come out of Mexico at night and Mexico has also been a hot bed of many UFO sightings with the Mexican Air Command having filmed and released some of their footage of being followed by as many as 12 craft.
I would have to say we indeed are being visited–One thing is that you have to know there has to be technology to transverse light years faster than the speed of light–and if many different forms of life some would have greater technology than others. Some I am certain would be robots and some of perhaps a biological entity. What I saw were similar to what people call a grey but disguised enough other than military helmets and space suits–the large glowing eyes and short stature would be the same. Those were not nice guys, but then I was armed at the time. Anyhow that kind of experience will have you thinking you are crazy until you find out thousands of people have had experiences similar. That Walton guy lives right there near Snowflake–If you get his story and 5 more men that witnessed the UFO and his disappearance–you know he is no Donut. He took several lie detector tests and passed all and so did the other 5 men.
This is what is the terrible thing about government. The information they have should be public. The cold war is over–but they don’t mind spending billions and more billions on secret projects of our tax money but treat the public like so many animals. If you look at the people running things, other than greed and having an obsession for money and power, a very large percentage of them are in the monkey range of IQ. Very few talk of things important and if they do, you see once in power they only continue to talk.
Well happy UFO looking–and stay the hell away from them like you would a canyon choked with manzanita and a wild fire nearby with a storm in the distance. Neither is a good omen.,
Joy,
I am truly sorry for your loss. Losing a loved one expected or not is tough, I know we are all here for you. He sounded like he was a wonderful man. My prayers and best vibes are sent to you and your husband and family.
I am grateful to be able to peel back the layers of the things I held in for a long time. Having the people like you and all on IM that ensure integrity enables all of us to be able to speak openly and honestly. JD has walked through the 10th level of hell to provide and solidify on of the most important rights we have, “Freedom of speech” You and everyone else on here have faced some kind of harassment in the past for doing this work to ensure change begins and anchors in.
I wrote something last-night that I deleted because I initially thought it may cause trauma to arise in all of us. I sat up this morning and felt it was important to share as I know we all have things from our past that “Go bump in the night” When I started in the fire service it was an unsaid rule to be tough, don’t allow the hard or sad incidents we were are sure to witness bother us. I was fortunate to have outstanding leadership that were there for us to help navigate any issues that occurred in direct result of the calls that had fatalities or heavy trauma. I can gratefully say that my first job, a Hotshot we had all the resources and help we needed to band together and help one another.
After my IHC career was over and I moved into another job description myself and my crews were tasked to respond to “All-risk” incidents on-top of our normal Wildland duties. I held onto the memories and responsibility to ensure that after a traumatic call my fellow FF’s were ok and held AAR’s to talk about the call, what we did and how we did. I always allowed for adequate time for the FF’s to speak openly and honestly from their hearts. On more than one occasion we had to go out of service to initiate unofficial and official CISD’s /CISM’s if we thought this would cause harm mentally and spiritually to those affected.
On more than one occasion more help was required to help those that needed a higher level of care (Counseling/peer support) immediately following a civilian fatality or traumatic event. It wasn’t a cut and dry process then and it still remains difficult to initiate as the perception of the supervisors above sometimes were the wedge between, “Taking care of our own” or allowing the culture of “Suck it up” to infect another generation of good human beings, firefighters that aren’t made of stone. Stone cracks if enough force is applied, I know that after multiple hard calls I developed a crack that eroded my shield. I look at how strong new firefighters can be in regards to the things they see. I compare it to a new Teflon coated pan. When it is brand new it does it’s job, nothing sticks to it, easily washed and stored for the next meal. Over time the Teflon coating wears off, stuff starts to stick, it’s hard to clean and requires more time to prepare it for it’s next use. Eventually it burns food and it may become a pan that doesn’t want to be used or isn’t used. Helping new or seasoned FF’s that have lost their coating has been an Elephant in the room since I can remember if traditional measures don’t work. Small sects of the enormous FF community are getting it right with the intensive help that after two decades has been available until somewhat recently.
It is the saddest thing I have ever witnessed to watch great Leaders and FF’s affected by PTSD (aka PTSI). The old school of thought is that the “D” in PTSD meant “Disorder.” Putting that kind of stigma on an occupational caused injury has allowed for the vast majority to shy away from getting help. So much so that most would opt to remain silent in fear of the label of “Disorder”. Looking back at the past and present suicide rates and the sheer numbers of those that resorted to this terribly sad and preventable epidemic within the fire service has been and is enough for the nations best trauma experts and clinicians to step up and provide a peer based life line in the form of retreats and first responder based treatment proven to help those that help everyone.
It has finally begun to reach those once held down by a stigma that to this day still exists. Many agencies have gone “all in” on helping their most valuable resource, their first responder/firefighters and law enforcement officers. Sadly some agencies do not see it prudent to send a firefighter or group of firefighters to a place in where they can truly talk and heal from these programs that are proven to put a new coat of Teflon back on the ones that are affected so deeply. The price tag is too high for the administrators to justify and in doing so would mean they admit they are in the dark ages. How is it that smaller agencies/departments are able to pay $1200 a person to save a career or life but the larger ones will not? It has been proven to help, sadly a lot of good human beings are left to fend for themselves or reach outside to get the effective help.
I talk about this as I took care of my people but not myself. I thank God for 2 fellow firefighters that sat me down and helped me find the help I needed. People who see terrible things, over time will eventually lose their coating, I did. I am forever grateful for the care I received with dozens of other first-responders in an atmosphere that allowed all of us to cry, feel and understand that PTSI is an “Injury”, not a disorder, we were not born with a disorder but we were born with the “Human condition”. They did more for me in a week that any random MFC counseling ever did of years of attempts. Most EAP programs find any available counselor not trained in a very specific work related Trauma(s). Going to one’s personal insurance to find a specialist can be elusive and impossible or, highly expensive. If it happened on duty then we owe it to our FF’s to find the best specialists and programs available, they are all available.
I appreciate you Woodsman for your courage to talk about what happened to you. You are not alone nor do you have to hold onto the byproducts that may or may not cause you to lose sleep, self worth or shame. I know how therapeutic it is to talk about things and help new or old FF’s learn from the things you have been through. I see you as a person of high quality, high Integrity and standards. I offer the hand of help if you would like it or see fit to ask for any you that may need. I offer the hand to anyone that may need it. I can be reached very easily through internal path on here, IM and I’d be happy to get you or anyone that wants it the contact information to the countries best Trauma PhD and program in the world. It was the best week of my life professionally and it made the “bumps in the night” go away. I must continue to hold myself and my peers accountable and follow the easy regimen we were given each day. We all talk each week as we became family during the most intensive work mentally I have ever done, including Paramedic school back in the day.
I look at all of you as an extension of my family and am here to say that these programs are for civilians too. Trauma hits everyone and the common thread of being a human being and facing the injury is a part of the mission statement of this mentioned program. Please reach out to who you trust to get my information and it matters not to know names or any other information. HIPPA law is paramount as well as Anonymity. I respect all and both protective measures. Some here know me and I am quit positive they will pass on all pertinent information to anyone that asks for it. It changed my life and showed me that life will present terrible things as well as the tools to “Walk through everything” safely.
Joy, I look at you as a blessed and gifted lady. So much pain racked up from life and from the YHF and knowing the truth. From visits, revelations and hardships I know you are here as a Leader and teacher. It is the seen and not seen, felt and not felt that has been honorably placed in your loving hands. I ask that you hear me when I say this. I believe that God heals the wounds we have and will only give us what he believes we can process and handle. I also know that he inspired the healing processes that are available to all of us. So many can learn from you as this program is centered around healing utilizing each-other and guided by professionals that know that the powers not seen are there to touch and open hearts, the end result a Power no one can deny as a Clan, community and group working together to learn that this Injury(s) are treatable and fixable. We are not doomed to suffer and a “Disorder” would indicate we are to suffer, Injuries are things that after time and hard work WE CAN Recover indefinitely from. I have nothing but respect and love for all of you as all of you have walked the line.
Again, I am reachable and more than happy to share the information any of you may want to have. This human factor is an element that is very important to the healthy future to all of us, first responder in any form or not.
My best to all of you and a hug to my “Mighty Might” friend Joy, know you are loved and cared for by the seen and un-seen.
DownhillIndirect
Reply to DownhillIndirect ( DND ) post on January 22, 2020 at 5:11 pm
>> Downhillndirect ( DND ) said…
>>
>> Losing a loved one expected or not is tough,
Yes… and once again… I am so very sorry for the untimely loss of YOUR close friend Jesse Steed.
Through all the books and articles that have been written about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire, we still don’t actually know that much about Jesse.
Can you share ( with us ) a little more about him?
How did he really feel about working for the City of Prescott,, in general, and specifically for the Prescott Fire Department unit known as the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”?
Do you know if Jesse saw a career path for himself over to the structural side of firefighting, or whether he was perfectly content to remain working for Prescott’s Wildland division?
How did he really get along with Eric Marsh, Darrell Willis, others at PFD?
WTKTT,
I’d be happy to. I will do my best to share later today when I get back to my computer.
DownhillIndirect
WTKTT,
Before I share with you WTKTT and our group on IM who JS was to me I’d like to ask for prayers for my wife at this time. For the last 2 years we have been trying for a baby. In the last two years we were (She was) hit with something so heartbreaking….Three (3) miscarriages in a row. Two nights ago we saw the final one on a ultrasound. We could see the amniotic sack and a heartbeat as the doctor called it out little “Gummy Bear”, hours later we/she lost it. Her full blood panels came back and she once again had impeccable health. Fertility isn’t the issue and I requested a full screen as well, I’m fit as a fiddle too. The doctor that we see is a wonderful woman that chalked it up to environmental factors outside of our control, in fact 3 out of 4 pregnancies end in miscarriage as of 2020. She is heartbroken as am I. I ask that if you believe in prayer, please say one for her, if not, good feelings and vibes are appreciated. I TRUST all of you on here, so coming from a group with Integrity, I know the power is real and full of love, thank you.
You are correct when you say there isn’t much written about Jess outside of his time in the Marines and a little bit in one of the books from years past. The movie didn’t capture him and how he loved to mentor his Firefighters. The camaraderie was done somewhat well but all the fluff and BS ruined it for those that know better.
Jess was a happy person. When I first met him there was something I admired greatly, his ability to make those in his life feel like they were special, appreciated and important. Even if our group of friends didn’t see each-other for months he made us feel like it was just the other day. Even before he and a few other friends enlisted in the Marine Corps he had a strong sense of Integrity, family and community. The time we spent as a group of friends made every situation more fun, “Interesting” and memorable because he was there. He was a “character” that a lot of people gravitated to including myself.
He was in Camp Verde for most of his youth but was a Prescottonian in many senses of the word. Before we all set out for our careers, school and the military for some, we got into our fair share of Shenanigans. From camping trips way out Iron Springs Road to under the radar outside bon-fire parties we lived a more action packed life because of him. Rough-housing and beating each-other up was a pre-requisite as all of us were headed for important careers, knowing we could die, “We Lived hard” some in firefighting, others serving proudly in the Marine Corps.
As we started to somewhat settle down from our last minute road trips and adventures we collectively started on the paths we were all drawn to earlier in our youth. Myself and a few others began our fire service careers and Jess with two others enlisted in the United States Marine Corps. I remember vividly one night preparing a celebration for Jess and two others that successfully completed boot camp. We were given a heads up the he and the other guys were still very hyper-vigilant being they just got out. The typical hugs and rough-housing we were used to were temporarily replaced with “Stand at attention handshakes”.
That lasted about 5 minutes into the surprise party and they all realized it was ok to relax while the were on leave. Not that Jess was ever out of shape, I witnessed what the US Marine Corps can do for building strong men with the highest standards in conditioning. To be honest I had serious second thoughts about any sneak attack wrestling matches that were to commence (as they do) as the night-time party progressed. A lot of people came to celebrate his homecoming to Arizona. He was a man that people gravitated to, he was intelligent and really cared about his friends and family.
As people began to drop off for the night from over-indulgence it was our group that kept the midnight oil burning. I remember Jess having a one on one with me about his love for being a Marine. He was excited and full of colorful stories and how he wanted to be the best. We were so very proud of him and we knew that he was meant for many great things now and in the near future. He asked me if I had any pictures from my most recent fire season and said, “When I get out from the Marine Corps I will be a Hotshot, a firefighter”.
I handed him my scrapbook of photos (No smartphones yet) and he was glued to each page filled with camaraderie and fire. “I want to be a Hotshot” he blurted out. “When I get out I will do whatever I can, whatever it takes”. That conversation lasted into the early morning hours. It’s an amazing thing to see when he set his mind to something, it was as good as done. Yes, the libations and testosterone built up that night evolved into multiple wrestling matches. I won one and lost one, I thought I did well against him but he won fair and square, ok he beat me like it was his job. At the end of his leave we all met up again knowing that he was going to be in areas filled with extreme Danger, we made a pact to always stay in-touch even when we all were busy helping people. When he was out of the USMC he came home intent on fulfilling his dream to be a part of one of the world most sought after firefighting careers. It didn’t take long to realize that dream and became a member of a R-3 IHC.
He wasn’t in it for the money of fame but he did it to help people and to be a part of a highly trained brotherhood he compared to his time spent as a United States Marine Corps. Time flew by as we both shared a profession and we saw each-other on fires all over the west. He told me he really enjoyed being a Hotshot and was excelling at it greatly. He found his place in the world and I know he helped employ sound Leadership principles he already had and from the Marine Corps.
For a year we only spoke a few times but, when he did he always was more concerned about others, family, friends and his crew. Jess was becoming a leader that firefighters followed and respected. We lost contact for a short period of time and after we re-connected he explained about this great opportunity to join a handcrew that was sponsored by PFD. He told me that DS was successful at creating crew 7 with DW and it was a way into a City Job. He also spoke about the possibility of it becoming a IHC training crew if all went well. He was excited that if they could make the change it would mean that they would be the first municipal HS crew on the planet.
He worked extremely hard and expected and empowered his people to be the best while mentoring them only as Jess could do. He had a big part in readying his people even though it wasn’t talked about much. Going from a Federal IHC to a crew that was going for IHC status was going to be a difficult process to earn their status as a IHC brought growing pains that we present up until the YHF. It has been documented that his leadership style was widely accepted and liked by GMHS. One of the many issues that placed a quiet wedge between himself and his Supt. was the how he and EM differed in Leadership, training and approach to tactics and safety. As much as the media portrayed “all was well” Jess had the monumental task to navigate an atmosphere in which he acquiesced at times to divert from un-needed and preventable harsh and public behavior that occurred. On multiple occasion GM’s crew (or individuals) were observed with narcissistic patterns and fell back to the leadership. Jess was the voice of reason and told me on more than one occasion that his boss was unstable, argumentative and was unable to work with others, especially the ones his supervisor didn’t like. That list of people his Supt. “Disliked began to grow by the day”.
Coming from a municipality the internal hardships of multiple company and chief officers bled into what was expected of the crew. The mantra “Risk a lot to save a lot” became risk a lot to save little”, Some of the calls and private interactions I had with him on fires pre and during GM’s IHC status were hard to hear. “I don’t know how much longer I can tollerate “His” behavior and constant need to prove himself at the cost of a bad reputation or worse, we have close calls on almost every fire” Jess wnt on explaining that they were “Accepted” and taking on assignments that others declined were associated with bad overhead and general staff direction to “Just get the job done, at all costs sometimes”. Jess was not a coward by any means of the word but he knew that even when he said “This is a bad idea”, he would be over-run by “Insane tactics” Jess said “it was all I could do to make sure his guys had a safe way out even though there was a better way, a safer way”.
Being that the structural side that included “The Prescott way” The hotshots were also asked to prioritize the mission(s) like the city FF’s did. The chief officers above them expected all COP firefighters to operate the same. That is impossible and causes confusion especially if the YHF general staff had very little Wildland experience that was proven to create an over-zealous infrastructure and over confidence. It was evident that declining an assignment because of hazardous environments and unrealistic movements meant insubordination said or not. I know Jess loved his guys but was frustrated at their big picture chain of command. Regardless of assignment Jess would offer alternative solutions that looking back (Horseshoe 2, etc) did in fact save lives including their own.
To answer your question WTKTT, yes Jess had planned to eventually join the ranks of his structural brothers and friends we both grew up with. He had/has a family and being at home 4-5 days in a 6 moth period weighs upon them and it weighed upon him. Would a position a a IHC Supt. be a great thing, yes but from our conversations and talking with others that knew him well, he wanted to be home more, get paid more and have stability outside of the IHC Gypsy road show.
Like I mentioned before, he was good to everyone he was around. He was a great negotiator for safety and had solid friendships with the “Floor Guys” and DS. I mean he was partly raised by a few COP FF’s/Chiefs as we were close with their families and sons. I know for a fact that if it weren’t for DS the idea to create the fuels crew and ultimately the IHC would’ve never happened. DS spent a lot of time with them on small fires during the c-7 time. Jess loved him dearly as well as his family and co-workers.
As C-7 changed and evolved more and more people came in and left the crews infrastructure from a CRWB standpoint. Thant kind of change in overhead is difficult and can cause dissension. DW at the time was a big part of helping the crew and helped DS cut through the red tape. When EM was hired it was like any other new thing. He was open minded and wanted to build the crew to be it’s best. The honeymoon ended like they always do and the internal fire to always prove something began.
Look back at past crew members and junior overhead that couldn’t or wouldn’t condone the pace that no other crew I know of or have been on would ever set. Being blinded by the attempt to be the best (Pride) destroyed relationships. Jess was professional but inside he knew he wanted to make the change within the COP guidelines to the “Floor”. The last time I spoke to him was during the Doce while I was on another fire in another region. He said, and this is hard to say knowing I couldn’t help him right away ( A part of my PTSI therapy has helped but I still suffer from this interaction). He said “I wish you were here bro, the fire is in our childhood, our party spot our gun range”. I don’t know how much longer I can do this, the damage control the “Time-outs”. I need to make the move to the floor”. That was the first time I had ever hears him sound defeated. I told him to, “Hold On, Be Safe and go talk to DS and DW when you get off the fire during your R&R”. “These guys love you, hell the department loves you, you will excel at everything you do”. He agreed and had to go as they were going to do some burning. I told him I loved him and to call me after he reached out to the other chiefs. Thant was the last time I talked to him, I hold onto his voice and our friendship, I’d say brotherhood but that word was ruined by the years of nonfactual spew that followed the burn-over.
So, He was the guy that we all know and love. The guy you throw the winning ball to and the guy that comes to the hospital with roses for your wife after she gives birth. He loved hard, worked hard and fought hard. He was inches away from change. He was/is loved by those he touched and by those that “Just met him”. I miss him and I know he is making people laugh in the next life. He holds no contempt and has healed more people than we know. I hope that as more FOIA’s surface the world will see the truth. Yes, mistakes were made, costly mistakes and I know the puzzle that is YHF will be completed as it truly happened, Thank you WTKTT for asking the questions no-one has ever asked me. It helps me grow and re-set from the day time stood still in my household. Please DO NOT STOP searching and being the holder of a torch that will never go out.
This song, from Pearl Jam has healed me in ways that I know can help all….. it is called “Release Me”, please listen and enjoy
https://youtu.be/EpkYIy6UhI4
DownhillIndirect
I have you and your wife and family in my prayers and I listened to the song.
Thank you for sharing about a man I have come to know through FOIAs and PRRs and other WFs and FFs and loved ones … and as well when he is with me on the Weavers. Only people who have been through such can understand – the harmful people like to make me out to some psychic but I know it has happened to others as well. They need their stories told and not just some year after year media public relations Yarnell Hill Recovery Group folks but from people who were there or knew them.
I was accepted “again” back into the Academy on the class I wanted. I won’t fail the Academy. I will do right by them and the world. I do not think there is a human being who has spent the many hours at places with physical file locations looking at the unredacted data as I have- then to be shown the redacted areas from entities for bogus reasons has been down right wrong and illegal in some areas.
This is the year certain fire stations come to the forefront for the world to see-
No more Willis. No more. You all had your time to do the right thing but this behavior I saw behind the scenes on me – I like you and Judy still and I just pray it was Spiritual Warfare for creating that wrong kind of support for two loved ones I plan to show all the records in due time so the world will see what I have endured and faced all these years and I am disgusted with the media and their lack of caring as well as people who cried with these families and for sure Jeff Whitney after he left his position- why vanish from the homes and hearts of these loved ones? why? I want that answer some day too.
Donut, really look at the Legislative friends you have — are they really there for those “down” moments for you? Are they? I know they are there for public spots (or at least the kids of theirs are) because I know all the players in this and I watch. Come to me Donut and share and I will make sure your story is fully told. Not some “ghost-writing” book bullshit…let 2 0 2 0 mean something to you … 20th man of a 20 man crew…let’s roll…think of those kids that do not have a dad as you look at your kids and let’s do this. The time is here, Donut. Really glad you rid of the Walrus stach’ too. It was not you.
WTKTT,
If you want or need more, reach out to me. I have memories that make me smile and, make me sick. Reach out and we can talk. This goes for all of you. I can’t write everything without getting carpal tunnel.
DownhillIndirect
Copy that….
…but I would hate to see you not keep posting like you have been lately., so that ALL can read it. You are intelligent, thoughtful, and obviously experienced.
You are now one of the ‘experienced’ voices, along with others, that regularly post to this ongoing discussion… and people need to LISTEN to what you have to say.
WTKTT,
This was taken from an interview of the YHF I.C, R. Hall. It has 3 sections and the Video that DID accompany it has “Vanished”, Humm. Mr. Hall was quoted to say……
Sunday, June 30th 2013 became the longest and darkest day and night
of my life to date.
In the late afternoon hours of the Yarnell Hill Fire, 19 Granite
Mountain Hotshots were confirmed deceased–over run and entrapped
by erratic fire behavior associated with thunder cell winds that
caused a 4 mile fire run in 20 minutes.
As darkness fell, the fire rested and no additional significant fire runs
or acreage were recorded. The Yarnell Hill Fire had staked its claim.
By personal choice, I have worked 40 fire seasons within a risk laden
profession that attracts possibly the most self-disciplining
professionals known! My colleagues and comrades in the wildland fire
arena are my most harsh critics. This characteristic makes me who I
am! This valued characteristic eliminates those who can’t take sharp
and timely constructive criticism. It’s the very backbone of what
makes each wildland fire responder better and creates integrity and
an intense sincere desire to strive for excellence.
Following the 2000 Cerro Grande Fire in Los Alamos, NM, I was
introduced to AND resisted at first, a new management approach to
fire; specifically wildfire management. I attended one of the first
gatherings to discuss High Reliability Organizations and the
characteristics that define the ability to better manage the
UNEXPECTED. Over time, I found this tool to be very useful. High
reliability organizational characteristics began to shape my
leadership style and leader’s intent delivery as a newly certified
Incident Commander in 2004 and this training had guided me well to
June 30, 2013.
In my worst nightmare, I NEVER imagined that I would be in proximity
as an Incident Commander to very possibly the worst tragedy in
wildland firefighter loss since the historic and precedent setting fires
of 1933 and 1910! We had never suffered the loss of an entire crew–now on the Yarnell Hill Fire in west-central Arizona, 19 Granite
Mountain Hotshots had become historical statistics we call
‘fatalities’.
We train wildland fire line supervisors to assess and take charge.
Battlefield -fire line decisions are made using ALL of the best
information available based on decades of experience and training.
We will never know what Granite Mountain supervisors saw on Sunday
afternoon, June 30th. Nor will we completely know all the
conversations preceding their decision to move the crew out of the
‘hard black’. Whatever they saw, whatever the situation at that
time; confirmed their confidence that they had the time and safety
margin necessary to move. I stand resolute and IMMOVABLE behind
this announcement and decision to move. The situation changed very
quickly and the decision was compromised, leaving nowhere to evade
the fire’s intense assault.
I would NOT wish this tragedy upon my worst enemy! However, I
would NOT trade places with anyone! There is no time like now to
LIVE for the legacy of safety for our wildland fire fighters! The
‘gorilla’ is still in the room! He ALWAYS has been! AND he ALWAYS
will be! We must never forget—we must NEVER rest—we must
ALWAYS remember!
We ALL keep asking, ‘WHAT could we have done differently?’ It IS
human nature to want to know WHAT happened! This effort attempts
to humanize an explanation that could make us all feel
better…HOWEVER, we just don’t know ALL the facts! Furthermore, IF
we are truly sincere of the statement we have uttered AND heard
literally hundreds of times in the past weeks–‘OUR heartfelt thoughts
and prayers go out to the families of these fallen heroes!’ THEN we
must realize and personally ACT NOW to STOP the speculation,
questions, and cynicism of Monday morning quarterbacking! It will
NOT bring back 19 of our best and finest comrades!
I AM committed to learning the most I possibly can from this tragedy!
The risk and exposure of the wildland fire ground is well documented,
however, there will ALWAYS be necessary decision space at the
battlefield-fire line level. Wildfire conditions are NEVER static–“A
firefighter utilizing the best available science, equipment, training,
and working within the scope of agency doctrine and policy, can still
suffer serious injury or death.”1
Roy A. Hall–Yarnell Hill Fire Incident Commander–June30 & July 1, 2013
I found this interview, with the redacted and removed accompanying video on “Wilfire Today” This interview was recorded 3 moths of less after the fatalities. There was mention of Abel and other operations resources, however; the investigators had already deducted the story and presented what we all think is rubbish, SAIT/SAIR.
This article/interview is one of if not the reason(s) I denounce the findings from that day. That day was set into motion for years. The general staff, especially Hall knew of the near misses and confirmed rouge tactics from past fires. It was well documented that the Hard and proven ROE’s were ignored and disregarded.
If it was just that simple the videos and interviews that were captured years ago wouldn’t “Just Vanish”. A mass casualty incident that claimed more lives since 1910 should and would warrant all of the pieces to this puzzle. We all see now as the FOIA train has arrived that “Time DOES NOT” heal things.
I wanted to re-post this article/interview to allow us to see the patterns that exist and that the same people either investigators or General Staff are repeating the same behaviors that will injure or open the door for worse things to happen. Initially this was very personal to me, a part still is. Now I am looking at this from the eyes of a human being demanding change. The trick now is to reach those that thought this was over, it, is, not.
Be well everyone and know this will be made right even if it comes seven years later. Go into the archives of WT and read the public comments, then to people were offended and in dis-belief.
DownhillIndirect
The Maker is the Mighty One. I am just his stout little servant.
Something came to mind about how you present a lie and make the public believe it. We saw the diversion tactic at Yarnell during the investigation–promoted even by the film Only the Brave–that is keep people’s attention away from the facts but also included were the emotional opportunities to use the black psychology.
Most of the ads that are presented on TV are presented at the level grade school. If you can get to the subconscious areas of the brain that think on the level of a child then the conscious level will cognate on that level as well. Think processes are diminished greatly at tevel. A child is very accepting and if that child is also emotionally charged he/she (German it) will be stirred to believe and action in sync with what is desired by the perpetrator
Trump is an expert at this black psychology as are 99% of those that rule. They are there because they can stir the emotions of the masses–who after all does not want to be part of the patriot system and I do not mean the Patriot Act–an abridgement to the democratic ideals of freedom, privacy and the right to the facts and a free press.
.They use every strategy to play the emotions of the masses to elevate their god status and to increase and usurp their power. Keeping knowledge hidden by secrets, redactions and mum orders and thinking at the level of a child is a common black psychological method.
A terrorist is one who invades your country for his own interests–not yours. To me that makes a good definition of a terrorist. I wonder if Trump has thought of it that way as he orders more troops into Iraq.
abridgement of –correction The Partiot act has shortened our freedoms of expression, privacy en the main, and just about given government by the people the biggest fuck you public freedoms finger–you have none now. But of course it is presented as an act of Patriotism to remove your democratic rights of such things as privacy, free press, free expression and so on. We can be played the fools by all sorts of black psychology and acts to allow our government to follow though with decisions that can only be done by deceit and subterfuge.
It is hard to know the truth when most of it is redacted, hidden under mum orders, under laws such as trade secret laws and Patriot type laws. There are so many tactics in black psychology that are being used on people, yet when people do get informed they have one hell of a struggle to change things. Look how students were gunned down by National Guard and people attacked by the military during the Viet Nam protests. It like the Iraq and the Afghanistan ongoing wars are the Rich Man’s Wars. They are absolutely no benefit to our nation. They can have their god damned oil–it is of no use to us–but it is to the Bankers, Oil Magnates and Corporation conglomerates. Shit we have so much oil that we are having to export it. We don’t need it.
The many free energy technologies today would: however, weaken the dynastic powers of the big players. I do have to believe the new generation will be in an uproar because many of them are concerned about the earth environment and the people on it. They will want to know the facts and redactions our government at all levels has the habit of hiding.
It is a shame that something as should be clean as the Forest Service has become a mysterious and clandestine operation hiding under redactions, omissions, false statements, compartmentalization, need to know only orders and black psychology methods to maintain an illusive image. These fellows have forgotten they are public servants, not government agents working like the CIA with its clandestine authority. G rating does not stand for God rating.
However–G rating might mean Golf rating at the Trump tower meetings.
I think the term is exoplanets–make up your own Queens English–they do.
And Cooper would be in his 90’s if he were alive and Buzz Aldrin was one taking photos on the Moon. Call them liars if you want–but I think they are more akin to the people posting here than the mainstream at NASA who deny, deny, deny and others who do refuse to look at the evidence with an open mind.
If people knew more they would be demanding accountability for some of the treachery we see such as happened at Yarnell–but sadly has pretty much infested our whole government system. I did get a glimpse of that lady that wants to be President–she says she stands up to those billionaires. I wonder what her life expectancy will be if so–well I doubt they would do her in because truth is these politicos use every ploy to get into office–the corporate giants just smile about it.
Joy,
MIGHTY might….A term of respect.
DownhillIndirect
From:
To:
Willis,Darrell
“Holly Neill”
BCC: None
Date: 12/9/2013 12:25:10 PM
Subject:
RE: ADOSH
Holly,
Thank you for your kind words. I am finding some peace but still lots of questions in the report. As you see in the citations, I was named and the State was cited for the actions we took. On pages 12 and 13 of the IRPG it discusses Defensible/Non-Defensible tactics. I chose Non-Defensible (Prep and Leave) no injuries, no accidents, no incidents, but they still gave a citation. That troubles me for the future and nationally. There is work that may help before the fire front hits the infrastructure and it can possible do some good in a safe manner.
As far as OPS goes, I did not have a clear understanding of their roles, and it was not real clear. I did contact Musser and Able on multiple occasions for Field operations direction, but as I recall nothing about future planning or resource needs other than re-engaging my resources to Model Creek. Here is my theory on air resources, there is more information out there that is recorded. There was retardant study aircraft in the air that day conducting a study, they were recording all radio traffic both UHF and VHF. I also believe that Marsh was requesting a drop either in the valley or on their location because he heard an aircraft overhead.
Thank you for talking to Joy and having my back. I am grateful for that. Joy told me she blogged some information about me but I have decided to ignore the blogs, do you know what she said? By the way John Dougherty has asked for another interview. I have elected to have him write out his questions and I will answer them in writing after I get approval from the City. Looking forward to seeing you again. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
333 White Spar Road
Prescott, AZ 86303
10/1/2018Page 2
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
(928)925-7311 Cell
Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
From: Holly Neill [mailto:
]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 11:58 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: ADOSH
Darrell,
I realize that the ADOSH findings must be difficult for the GM families, for you and the PFD and the entire WFF community to hear and absorb. It certainly provides a startling contrast to the SAIR stating that everyone followed all policies and
procedures. It occurred to me that you in fact did pull your resources to safety when you realized the imminent danger. It seems to me that you are the notable overhead that made this type of safety decision.
I was happy to note that PFD was not cited or held accountable. This is as it should be.
Question: Was it made clear to you that Musser was Planning OPS and that Abel was Field OPS, and did they both stay within and operate within their individual OPS positions?
Do you know what information and why USFS has redacted this information relating to the
VLAT/ASM2 missions? Do you have a theory? I wonder if Marsh asked ASM2 for VLAT drop right down the middle of deployment valley (??).
10/1/2018Page 3
I am happy to see that Joy Collura contacted you. I took the liberty of trying to explain to her how you made the statement about “God’s Will”, not as an excuse or an effort to hide something, but as your own personal way of understanding a horrific event and trying to make sense of it. I believe she felt bad about negatively reacting to your comment previously, and she wanted to make up for it.
I won’t take any DW bashing on my watch! 🙂 I hope you are well, and satisfied to some extent with the ADOSH findings. We plan to return to Prescott in March to meet with John again and continue our efforts, Best to you,
Holly
10/1/2018
Will someone please explain to me what Darrell Willis is saying in regards to the Yarnell incident? I see he had to have the City review anything he sends to John Daugherty–he is not allowed to have his own voice and opinions–what he might offend Amanda and the cronies if he tells the truth? Some of you have a better change of getting at what he is saying in the previous FOIA Joy had provided us.
We will see in a few years if what Willis stated still holds any ground…he said: “I was happy to note that PFD was not cited or held accountable.”
I am explaining to you Willis..at this point it has zip to do with accountable or pointing fingers but to let families know when they visit one of your local stations that the discussions can begin to say what happened so the people who were there can begin to heal with the families. Right now its just bogus. Hurts me deeply. Maybe those prayers we all are doing helps those to talk.
In the history of my FOIAs and PRRs there is only ONE PERSON who I had to directly ask permission to review his records and they were more leaning to lie and deny they were there and get a lawyer. His time is still to come. I will present who he is soon to the world. ALOT KNOW WHO BEHIND THE SCENES so if I pass do not think I wss the only one who knows…
Joy,
As I read the question posed to DW regarding a VLAT drop in /on the Deployment site, NO. The super-heated gasses would’ve still incinerated the guys. I have watched retardant get easily burned through even if it fully penetrated the canopy to the ground in lower intensity fires.
Keep going sis, you are doing great!
DownhillIndirect
Joy,
so sorry for you and your families loss. Deepest condolences to you.
You’ll be in my payers and thoughts.
O.
It’s January 19th so let’s give honor and tribute to those 19 young men even though they royally messed up that day, and share some more of the truth (and lies) of the June 30, 2013, YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy.
Came across this quote from a Farnam Street article that relates to those naysayers, liars by omission, and outright liars – as well that loath the fact we are doing what we are doing here and elsewhere http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com . Some are merely ignorant of it all because they believed that their public servants would tell them the truth about this epic tragedy in their “factual” SAIT-SAIR. And some follow this pattern even though they disingenuously come across on social media forums as caring and compassionate and empathetic. In other words, it sure seems like some of them take it personal
“A hater is obsessive and uncritical. Disliking you becomes part of their identity, and they create an image of you in their own head that is much worse than reality. Everything you do is bad, because you do it. If you do something good, they find a way to see it as bad. And their dislike for you is not, usually, a quiet, private one. They want everyone to know how awful you are.”
( http://paulgraham.com/fh.html )
Please make the time to read the guy’s article in the link above
Good morning ☀️
Year: 1984 to 1985
It seem for so many people those years signify some very hard times with so many divorces on the rise but also Situational Awareness was at an all time low.
Vehicle accidents were also at an all time high.
My mother was renting an old farmhouse from her sister’s friend who was an officer.
I was just turning into a teen. I had two boys I would quickly run 🏃♀️ over after school to play basketball 🏀 or soccer ⚽️ or baseball ⚾️ … I loved being outside.
Maureen the red headed freckled girl three houses down to them said girls do not play with boys as a teen and they date, grow up Joy. what’s wrong with me she added. are you slow?
I guess at every phase to my life I just like being outside and playing and I always been that sort of “external sister” extension to peoples lives.
One day, I knocked on their door and continued for 46 days in a row including weekends which we usually took those off. On the 47th day I was so filled with excitement because the one door opened but they had this steel hard to see through security door on now and I could hear my friend Rich and yet he was stubborn to open the door. He told me to leave and never come back. I said where is your brother then if you won’t talk to me and why are you two not playing?
He slammed the door. I sat on their steps 🤷🏼♀️ confused.
When I walked home the star soccer player 9 houses down asked if I wanted to hang out. I was like wow maybe I can learn some soccer tricks from him and teach them to Rich and Dennis but nah he seem to have other thoughts and I said what are ya thinking …you are dating the most prettiest girl Nicole? I walked off. Most girls would think I was nuts to walk away from the hottest most popular guy but I don’t roll that way.
On the 93rd day I saw some kid that look like Rich in their driveway in a wheelchair. I took my roller skates off and ran up and I went to go in for a 🤗 hug and I said Rich what happened … is this why you ignored me? Because you were facing this? I could have helped you . Where is Dennis?
Roll back 94 days, their family member came to visit out of state and they were in an accident … his brother ( my after school play mate ) was killed and Rich was left in a wheelchair for his life they told him. I felt we were gonna beat that. I spent all my days after school helping to regain to walk while he was the biggest butthole ever and then just one day I went there I told him I know what happened to you was horrific and disabilitating but I am firmly going to walk away if you are gonna lead and live your life as a victim because I don’t want or need the abuse I have been seeing. God always placed it on my heart that the behavior was just that of Rich’s not him When I left, I never looked back on how he lived life nor did I ever know his last name, just kids playing. Yet I always felt robbed because of life tragic moments.
Same year my stepbrother was playing basketball 🏀 and was hit by a car and was in a coma …you see him on my posts next to my mom and stepdad. He suffered brain damage. His life too changed forever.
Then one year I had to take a job and in that role I had a person who had on record been in wheelchair or had at times to use their body to be guided from point a to point b for small distances and was to be hand fed and said on record she had a lobotomy. This middle aged woman looked at me and I felt every abuse she ever felt and not one person took the time for her. If I was to do what I did and show her the tools the authority roles would be against my given her full ability because my copartner was an older woman and that would mean she would have to work and she had her tv shows and regimen. I did it. I walked her 3 miles a day by the time my job was pushed out like I see in the Forest Service. I was upset that my progression for the lady was coming off in a negative because here this lady was not only walking but she was interacting in meal prayers and went from being hand fed to using her hands to then a spoon to a fork on her own. We made every Friday fun night and we danced for hours. All she needed was a person who made the time to show her the tools.
Over the years when I never heard from but select few of the GMHS loved ones … I thought that’s odd … but not so odd when you read who was making sure I did not get the chance to be near the loved ones. God will handle your ill behavior. You did it to others too so I could not take it personally.
When I say I know tools and I don’t publicize them …my hope is the FBI opens a new case based on the Caples RX burn then see in Jay Kurths own professional backyard that they will do Yarnell then I can tell the tool the corporation that failed me for years but if I just say it …. the ones who do not want this out will ensure the tool fails.
Anyways when you look at life and if you walk away from someone because the abuse and victim role is OVERUSED … you are ok … God will take care of those folks.
We are not to be in life to hear or feel any abuse. Let 2020 begin with a song in your heart and may your days be filled with joy.
I am on friend’s iPad and will not see any of my emails until late week. Yes that means records being released paused.
Time to gear up and head out for Fire Season 2020 training.
I just want the same things others want … who did it … I got that… if you saw for integrity because that family wrote me and they are not wanting their story told and I at times wonder if it is because Steeds family helped clear their destroyed property and there is that human element now that creates the barrier of pure truths but either way you see their kid … it is very unfair the internal suffering and we know he was ready at one point because the call was made by him but then he shut down.
🙏
As I always said on here … in Gods speed.
For DND, is it easier for me to email you some of IM’s questions for you behind the scenes or have them ask you here … they don’t want to push but they are all left with so many inquiries…
Joy,
Good evening, I am more then happy to communicate via email or on IM. I am relatively new to IM still and respect everyone’s privacy and anonymity. After a long call I had today, I wanted to somewhat stay on course and discuss a few incidents I was on as a Hotshot not that long ago. I bring these incidents up because they both parallel the YHF and how much effort went into erasing the past, then and with in the last 10 years.
A day after the “Los Alamos/Cerro Grande” fire (aka, Los Alamos Rx/Cerro Grande) escaped, my crew along with many IHC’s arrived in NM and were assigned to the Los Alamos/Cerro Grande fire. It was still burning very actively and had literally gutted the town and outlying housing areas and was heading towards the Elk preserve that had hundreds if not thousands of cow and bull elk head in the herd. Being somewhat new to traveling as a Hotshot I really didn’t know where I was at until we received our first briefing from our Supt.
Like any other fire we asked how it started, lightening or human caused. That briefing was the only one in my IHC career that you could tell made our overhead visually upset. There was a pause before he answered and as he did you could tell this was a special incident. “This fire was started as a prescribed fire that was under and subject to a Red Flag Warning.” The wind was still howling and the RH’s were in the low teen’s. The fire burned through the commercial part of town and around the Nuclear waste facility and all of the vent tubes from the storage area buried deep in the earth. Not only were we being tasked to try and catch a rapidly spreading fire but, keep our SA and safety in and around area’s known to be radioactive and unsafe for any form of life. Not until the third shift did we receive a official briefing from the DOD regarding the hazards other than related to the fire.
The level of security there was unlike anything I have ever seen and without ID, even in our crew buggies it was difficult to access the edges of the fire. The only other time in my career something like this occurred was on the “Waldo Canyon fire” in Colorado Springs proper and on the Air Force property including the “Tesla” entrance. There too clearance was required to execute the mission. Just like Los Alamos/Cerro Grande, Waldo Canyon required we had armed DOD/Air-force personnel with us at all times. On both incidents the “Values at risk” were not well known to the public and only made known to us if we needed to know. Waldo Canyon was not a escaped prescribed burn but both incidents burned many homes and commercial areas. Both incidents had a unknown safety dangers that most will never see in a lifetime.
Los Alamos/Cerro Grande was lit the day before our arrival under red Flag conditions under the well communicated NWS warnings. Any prescribed fire is not to have active ignitions within a 72 hour window of the predicted/actual wind and weather event(s). On multiple occasions we were told not to park, walk through or construct line in areas not marked or identified as Radioactive or dangerous. After being asked to move a sleeping area (by DOD officials) that was cleared by the team our overhead declined all assignments adjacent to DOD property. We were assigned to the Elk preserve/sanctuary and chased the fire for 18 days. The sleeping area move was coupled with an immediate mandatory meeting for all personnel at a school gymnasium near town.
We were issued a canned “Exposure report” and were given contacts information if anyone became ill. So far, nothing has happened to me and my health is fine. I do know of a few people who have gotten ill or worse and had a difficult time receiving care years later as a “Occupational disease”. This kind of pre-meditated oversight by personnel tasked to lite the “Prescribed burn” during Red Flag conditions violated every ROE’s regarding prescribed burn objectives. Even then, just like today, lighting a prescribed burn under Red Flag conditions is not only a really bad idea but violates all pre-burn documentation. The wind events and weather associated with these Red Flag warnings have and will negatively affect firefighter/public safety, private property, watersheds and habitats.
Today sadly, the same decisions have are being made to purposely begin ignitions on prescribed burns under dangerous and adverse weather conditions. The same outcomes and the same hidden behaviors designed to deflect any investigation done after a fire escapes from a prescribed status. Rx burns that only cost $110k over 5-10 years turn into multi-million dollar wildfires that adversely affect everyone. In no other place on this earth can a negligent act such as this be rewarded and chalked up to a “Lesson Learned.’ Draw your own conclusion but look back to how many past incidents publicized that were concluded to a “Lesson Learned.” If any of us were to allow a private burn pile to escape as citizens, your “Lesson Learned” would come with a full suppression bill and some jail time depending on what occurs. We know that wasn’t the case for the personnel at the LA/CG Rx.
Understanding who is who and the patterns that continue within the same collection of personnel is on of many keys that will hopefully open the mote protected gates. The pattern of behavior that occurred then and now are directly affecting how we are given information, public records truthfully or not. Some of the individuals that have been tasked to or volunteered to protect important information in a public domain, are the same individuals that were on past incidents I mentioned in this post. There is nothing in this profession or on this world for that matter that should be camouflaged to its firefighters or public. The momentum and views of the High level officials has been spun to, “This job is inherently dangerous”, “Some of the incidents that have occurred are not for everyone’s eyes.”
I would venture to say that all here would disagree, including the public and firefighters across the world. We would spend millions of dollars to suppress wildfires and prescribed fires lit under baffling weather conditions but, hold the truth from the people paying the bill? Nay, nope, Nada. As adults as people protected by the Constitution we are prepared to see and know how events occurred, good or bad. We are not being protected by anyone that would divert the truth to be known. Yes, the details will be shocking or disturbing, we can handle it. How are the current and past firefighters or future firefighters supposed to learn and build solid foundations without the entire equation? We can’t, they can’t we won’t. To better the forward progression of training, accountability must be more than a fourteen letter word. Don’t get me wrong I miss the firefighters I knew who perished on multiple incidents. I know that many ROE’s were ignored or not recognized early enough to prevent these losses.
The problem, the wedge is setting Incident Trigger Points from initial attack to extended attack (and sticking to them) isn’t present on a lot of fires that start, regardless of how they start. Structure protection has always been an added danger throughout the years. The WUI isn’t treated like a fuel bed at times and the weight of losing homes is a very real thing. I get that some people aren’t physically able to clear their properties. I understand that some can’t afford it or have decided to not do it. Nationally, defensible space regulations aren’t enforced like many would believe. Fire safe councils across the country either do/do not have the funding to assist those unable to clear their properties. That problem will persist as the elephant in the room until it is made known to all agencies across the states. The solution isn’t something some would agree to but, until it is made into a National, enforceable law we will sadly lose personnel, public and homes. What I just said is harsh, but it’s a real thing. Regardless of fire behavior, extreme or moderate some would rush into a situation allowing the structure threat to blind their prudent decisions. Some would say we have a defensible space regulation. How it is enforced is a whole other story.
Waldo Canyon, the Carr or the Camp fire(s) were devastating. A lot of good and sound firefighting was done on all three incidents. Some would say that in 2018 the fire behavior was unparalleled. I would disagree being on 2 out of 3 of the aforementioned. Look at the Butte fire in the eighties. Fire behavior witnessed there strictly in the wildland for the most part, flame lengths and heights ranged from 200-1000ft with firewhirls and plume dominated fire behavior. Seventy-three (73) people deployed fire shelters when the fire made a significant run. Looking at the report and knowing people on the fire, some sat out the burn-over safely in a very large clear-cut. Why did some sit unscathed in a clearcut vs. in a shelter, the ROE’s and sound Leadership.
Over the years we have seen the same fire behavior just like we have seen during 2018. The difference? Put a town or thousands of structures in the path of the same fire behavior and now all of a sudden it was the “Worst Fire Season/year in History.” I disagree, as terrible as it was to watch homes burn with people in them I reflect on Waldo, Butte, Grand Prix and the Old fire(s). I reflect on the conflagrations in the 90’s-the early and mid 2000’s and can say we experienced identical fire weather and fire behavior. Again, it was painful to sit in the safety zone while structures burned but, we did it knowing the alternative. I have met and know people that lost their loved ones/homes in all of these incidents, it was/is terrible. Being able to remember personally the incidents past to keep yourself, your crew and the public safe is paramount.
Structure protection……A glimpse into the beast that is protecting structures safely…Enroute to the incident, on initial attack or extended gathering known and unknown SA from past fires or finding local people who understand the weather and country from years of living there can’t be understated. Listening to all assigned frequencies and making sound decisions from listening to and observing fire behavior allows the leader and crew to make good initial choices that set the pace. Allowing time (which you may be running out of) to scout neighborhoods in a smaller vehicle with counterparts allow for a quick and thorough Triage of the area in and adjacent to your assignment.
Being able to quickly asses each home for the defensability and the time it will take to prep each home is a step that can’t be skipped. If a step is skipped, the chance for a near miss or worse has now greatly increased. For instance, we quickly asses that it will take 3-5 firefighters to cut away brush, move wood piles, cut line around and lay hose in 30 minutes. This home has green grass around it but enough ladder fuel to cause a real safety concern. We asses it will take 30 minutes and the fire is 40 minutes away give or take 5-10 minutes. Would it be a good idea? The answer lies within the ROE’s/structure hazard assessment that encapsulates powerlines, LPG tanks, etc. If we can answer yes its defensible based upon these factors then we will engage, if not quickly move on, wait for the initial fire pulse and go back to see what can be done when safe.
A lot of factors to follow but, it is doable IF we follow the rules. Again it is the job of the Leaders/firefighters to consistently re-asses. Five sets of eyes are better than one or more to navigate this arena. Imagine doing this all day/night and into the next day following these factors, many do it well, all can if they train. To confirm, saying no and re-assessing is more than ok if the fire and weather dictate so. The difference between doing it right and not affects us all. Add external hazards such as KV powerlines and special considerations like water treatment facilities or radioactive storage change the game but not the safe actions based upon mitigatable tactics. Some firefighters can go their entire career without being in a going WUI incident. Then, one day they are assigned to something they haven’t done. Speaking up because they aren’t familiar or have a new group with them is ok, there is always another job to do without the fear of being ostracized, that is smart firefighting, safe firefighting. Again training onsite when applicable is ok too with a sound buddy system in place.
Caring about one another and communicating transparently in all aspects of firefighting, training and human factors makes hazardous conditions mitigatable conditions. Sometimes it stops people from making poor choices and allows for real learning. I implore any firefighter, new or seasoned to adhere to the ROE’s and communicate openly. Take the L out of LCES and you cannot see. Take the C out of the LCES and I can’t hear you. Take the E out of LCES and I can’t move with purpose. Take the S out of LCES and I can’t be safe. This is a easy rhyme to learn and to live by if you have a difficult time gathering SA. It can help stop a bad situation from happening until a re-grouping occurs.
I feel strongly about transparency, Leadership and training. Without those key elements we are destined to repeat the same painful history. I hope that the majority of sound firefighters out there fertilize the ground that is stagnant or unwilling to change. Without change, real change we will see the same things in a time where we should be moving forward. A lot of great leaders are still out there armed with technology that wasn’t available for so many years. But, it is the basics that truly pioneer safety, it’s time we fall back and re-visit them.
DownhillIndirect
I also feel strongly about transparency, Leadership and training but as well I believe people should not place products out that are dangerous like the SAIT SAIR and I believe in honestly looking at origin of fires and if they are the ones sent out every new Season via emails to so many each Season on fires to be or not to be …that is the question.
I hope they learned from the past decade or more people of high skills are watching and documenting and there may be a rise in their pay 💰 right now but in due time it will fall so save it all and think twice on that trip to Paris or that kick ass ski trip 🎿
Again I also believe you will see a shift in this new decade 2020 to 2030 that will be epic and historic and it will be because of you DND.
Amen brother 🙏
Those that have not seen the documentary GOLDEN GENE free on Tubi–I strongly recommend it. It will bring you up a bit on how quickly advances are being made with the Crspr technology. China is in the game with super computers and what use to take two years to work with this technology at the time of the film is said to take only two weeks now. China is working with pigs changing the DNA so that their organs will be close enough to transplant into humans. There is a huge market for organ transplants and hundreds of thousands of people are in need of them.
These research laboratories are getting very close, if they do not already have the ability to use the pig organs in humans. They already have the ability to designer DNA for humans–more intelligence, blue or green eyes if you prefer, increase in stature and strength and so on. And of course once the DNA is changed it is passed on–the new world of improved humans. Even ageing is already being reversed so that humans can live 200 years or more in good health and abilities.
This science is so advanced that one doctor of medicine says even an idiot can do it. What he means is there is a relatively simple procedure that some smart individuals can now use to change things. They have already cured MS in mice by clipping defective genes–coming to the stage now to do it in humans and also in curing Aids and Cancer. Also altering species so that new ones can be made and even the idea of bringing back some species now extinct.
As I said, don’t be surprised if the monkey that pulls you over to give you a ticket is a real Orangutan and he asks for your drives license. He won’t have any problem grabbing you by the neck and dragging you out the window if you refuse.
Oh my, isn’t the new world a neat thing to look forward too–If I live long enough to see it, it might be a trip.
Can you imagine a monkey might be looking at you in a cage instead of you at the zoo looking at him. Keep your insurance and license up for god sake.
Something I should add–yes the technology is there. But also if it comes out even a pig heart will cost you a bundle and make you want to squeal. Big Pharma is no different than big Chem and big retardant dumping. They will guide this plan so plenty of Pharma will be needed or it won’t be done. This shit won’t be cheap and you better have paid big money for Insurance cause there won’t be no poor invited.
We hope anyway–and that is faith but think good and expect the worst–this way you won’t be dissapointed. But if things do turn out good then you can have a pleasant surprise.
A link for dnd
https://www.iawfonline.org/mentoring-program/?fbclid=IwAR1y_uHFAMN64anKk7a2Fc_ycqruClBuKYx-UY6YcL30nr5nJEbAzNh_XT4
Joy,
Wow, Thank you!
DownhillIndirect
Yes, much honor to the men that sacrificed their lives at Yarnell. The intentions go save structures even without a chance in hell to do it, albeit foolish, was indeed a brave action with the greatest of intent. That needless sacrifice is an example never to be forgotten–a lesson taught with their very lives the absolute needless skirting of safety rules to save structures. No amount of honor and elevation to hero status is worth the protection of structures.
You may feel my opinion is extreme–I am old, I am a citizen not a wild land fire fighter. I do not have the wisdom and experience or wild land fire fighting knowledge. Over my 75 years I have had the opportunity to save more than one life while endangering my own. I do not think of myself as a hero for those acts–they were something that any man or woman that posts here would do if they had been at that place at that time. I do see those men as heroes, yet heroes sacrificed by those bosses that ruled their lives. I believed they were brainwashed by the idea of having to strictly obey orders on a daily basis. That I know was written in their qualifications and duties required to be a wild land fire fighter. They believed their bosses and in their integrity–they obeyed–they died. Their bosses failed them but gave the wild land fire fighting some awareness and wisdom. Will they use it by viewing the incident as it truly was, or will they continue to consider it an unfortunate accident although all basic wild land safety rules were disregarded by the commanders involved and by the strict obedience of their crew causing the deaths of the 19 GMHS heroes.
Now, I also would like to honor the fallen approximately 200 of the 645 residents of Yarnell and Glen Isla with that count of dead increasing. I believe they were used as lab rats or guinea pigs if you prefer. The government had retardant studies in effect at the time–I do know these retardant dumps–one after the other during the Yarnell and the subsequent Tenderfoot fire two years later. Tens of thousands of gallons of the Phosphate retardant were dumped in and around the little village of Yarnell during these fires. In the 7 years since the Yarnell dumps the death toll has continued to climb with an extreme skewing of the bell curve. Average yearly deaths of a community that size should be approximately 6 individuals, while the death toll for this small village has been over 30 individuals per year. Add to that, since the retardant dumpin there are many individuals with unexplained and sudden illness from such things as heart, lung and cancer issues.
What are the main ingredients in these wild land fire retardants that have the appearance of agent orange. The orange color if from an iron oxide powder–it is added so that pilots and others can easily spot where they had previously spread the retardant. It also adds some weight to the mixture albeit there are clays and gar gum added to thicken and add weight as well. Then the main ingredients which will range from above 80% to 95% will be Ammonium Nitrates and Phosphates. They are said to be negligible on human health and environment.
Fish die immediately when exposed to even a dilute solution of it in their water and the ocean dead zones increase considerable each year from these chemicals. They are a fertilizer and feed the red algae in the dead zones causing the killing of not only the fish but all aquatic life below the algae and even the coral in the reefs. Red algae is poisonous and its only known use is to make dead zones. No long term studies have been made on the effects of these chemicals on human health–at least that is what we are told. Now whether the study that was made after the Yarnell and Tederfoot fires was a short term study I do not know. Government is good at keeping mum and even making mum orders and redactions. Anyhow, if it isn’t then they only need to visit Yarnell and go house to house to find who is dead and who is sick. They will find that just about every other house is a death house and just about every house has an ill person.
Now we come to the trade secret ingredients –something you will not be allowed to know even if they are dumping these chemicals right on top of your head and you fall ill. When you die it won’t matter. I have to believe one of those is Bromine. It is found in most fire retardants and is a very effective chemical regarding such. So below is a clip of the effects of Bromine on health from the Lenntech web site.
Bromine is corrosive to human tissue in a liquid state and its vapors irritate eyes and throat. Bromine vapors are very toxic with inhalation.
Humans can absorb organic bromines through the skin, with food and during breathing. Organic bromines are widely used as sprays to kill insects and other unwanted pests. But they are not only poisonous to the animals that they are used against, but also to larger animals. In many cases they are poisonous to humans, too.
The most important health effects that can be caused by bromine-containing organic contaminants are malfunctioning of the nervous system and disturbances in genetic materials.
But organic bromines can also cause damage to organs such as liver, kidneys, lungs and milt and they can cause stomach and gastrointestinal malfunctioning. Some forms of organic bromines, such as ethylene bromine, can even cause cancer.
Inorganic bromines are found in nature, but whereas they occur naturally humans have added too much through the years. Through food and drinking water humans absorb high doses of inorganic bromines. These bromines can damage the nervous system and the thyroid glan
Now here are the effects of Bromine on the environment–copied from the same web site:
Environmental effects of bromine
Organic bromines are often applied as disinfecting and protecting agents, due to their damaging effects on microorganisms. When they are applied in greenhouses and on farmland they can easily rinse off to surface water, which has very negative health effects on daphnia, fishes, lobsters and algae.
Organic bromines are also damaging to mammals, especially when they accumulate in the bodies of their preys. The most important effects on animals are nerve damage and next to that DNA damage, which can also enhance the chances of development of cancer.
The uptake of organic bromine takes place through food, through breathing and through the skin.
Organic bromines are not very biodegradable; when they are decomposed inorganic bromines will consist. These can damage the nerve system when high doses are absorbed.
It has occurred in the past that organic bromines ended up in the food of cattle. Thousands of cows and pigs had to be killed in order to prevent contagion of humans. The cattle suffered from symptoms such as liver damage, loss of sight and depletion of growth, decrease of immunity, decreasing milk production and sterility and malformed children.
And Wickeopedia gives us and idea of who manufactures the retardants Yarnell was saturated with.
Israel Chemicals Ltd. (Hebrew: כימיקלים לישראל בע”מ), also known as ICL, is a multi-national manufacturing concern that develops, produces and markets fertilizers, metals and other special-purpose chemical products. ICL serves primarily three markets: agriculture, food and engineered materials.[7] ICL produces approximately a third of the world’s bromine, and is the world’s sixth-largest potash producer.[8] It is a manufacturer of specialty fertilizers and specialty phosphates, flame retardants and water treatment s
90% of ICL’s sales are exports. A major player on world markets, ICL through its subsidiaries, accounts for:[10]
35% of world bromine production
11% of world potash production and 13% of international potash trade (excluding the cross-border trade between the United States and Canada)
9% of western world primary magnesium consumption
3% of world phosphate rock production, 3% of international phosphate rock trade (excluding the cross-border trade between the US and Canada)
One of the world’s most integrated manufacturers and suppliers of phosphate products.
ICL exports fertilizers to Europe and to numerous specialty chemical market segments. In Israel, ICL is the largest supplier of fertilizers and chemicals, as well as one of Israel’s largest companies.[citation needed]
60% of ICL’s raw products (minerals) are excavated in Israel. ICL also owns and operates underground mines in Spain, United Kingdom (North Yorkshire), China, the US and South America.[citation needed] Also, in Ethiopia at Danakil mine, Afar Regional State, purchased from Allana Potash Corporation.
I think if I were a detective and saw that Bromine is very effective in retardant work and a company accounts for 35% of Bromine production and esport, then highly likely that chemical is included in their wild land retardant exports. It is sort of like China that was putting antifreeze in dog food killing our dogs until enough citizens complained–but we could read those ingredients, yet the Israeli chemicals are hidden under trade secret laws.
So what else have they added to the 5-15% secret but deadly ingredients? The former was a guess but an educated guess. We can not know but whatever they are once mixed also create new chemicals–and when spread upon hot fires cause new chemicals to form–one of which is Zyclon B–hydrogen cyanide gas.
The environmental effects of these retardants and especially the Phosphates and Nitrates is atrocious. If you look at the many abandoned Phosphate mines–especially those in Florida near water ways that are seeping into both the rivers and oceans and even the fresh water supplies you see unimaginable devastation. Phosphates do all kinds of damage to internal organs of humans over time but with fish you see photos of hundreds of thousands of fish dead on the beaches and what about the health of other forms of aquatic life like dolpins and whales. They certainly must be affected along with increasingly greater ocean dead zones.
So yes, Mr. Wild Land Fire Figher–I stand in awe at your bravery and your obedience to authority. I salute you as true American heroes–I know you deserve that salute. May your commanders be true to their crew’s safety and may you be well compensated for the health problems you will endure in life from exposure to the toxic chemicals of wild land fire retardants.
Also I salute the people who have sacrificed their lives as so many known or unknown guinea pigs to teach us the real dangers of exposure to wild land fire retardants.
Sonny,
You posted: “Yes, much honor to the men that sacrificed their lives at Yarnell.” On the contrary these men did nothing of the sort, they were the unwary (and mostly unwilling) victims of having their lives sacrificed by bad decisions of their leaders over time. Their steady drift into failure.
Thankfully you correct that later in your post
Other reports state that they ” gave their lives. ”
Says a CNN article titled: “Remembering the [GMHS] The men gave their lives to protect Yarnell. The town has honored the Granite Mountain Hotshots with a unique tribute — a rugged hiking trail that climbs more than 1,000 feet up the side of the mountain where they died that day. …” (emphasis added)
According to Joy and Sonny the memorial trail is the one they took that day – NOT the GMHS. And this is bovine feculence that you won’t know about until you actually visit the trailhead and read their elaborate, well-crafted – albeit false, signboards. The AZ State Forestry officials in charge of them must have taken lessons from the Orwellian Ministry of Truth in order to rewrite that portion of the YH Fire history.
And while on the memorial park trailhead subject, two more items. The park is NOT funded by our tax dollars. It’s basically funded by donations. From Wildfire Today (Nov. 20, 2016) ” Legislation appropriated funds to purchase the 308 acres of land on June 30, 2015. The park came to life thanks to public donations, volunteers, staff from Arizona State Parks, and a generous donation from the Arizona Public Service Foundation. ” (emphasis added)
From the NRPA’s monthly (September) magazine article below titled: “A Memorial State Park to Honor 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots” on September 1, 2016, Department by Ken Sliwa and Glenn Schlottman
” There will be an ongoing need for fundraising as the park continues to develop, as well as to pay for ongoing preservation and maintenance. To learn more about the Granite Mountain Hotshots, the park or to make a donation, please visit the Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park website. Tax-deductible donations are managed through the Arizona State Parks Foundation, a 501(c)(3) organization. ” (emphasis added)
And the second subject of whether the GMHS Memorial Trail is legally compliant with the Federally mandated Americans With Disabilities Act (ADA) also, in some circles, affectionately known as the Attorney’s Dreams Answered Act.
In a word – the GMHS Memorial Trail Park is NOT ADA compliant! How do they manage to do that when EVERYONE else must comply with that Federal mandate?
Check out this article titled: ” The ADA Litigation Monster A landmark law to protect the disabled has spawned senseless mandates, abusive lawsuits, and stratospheric costs. by Mark Pulliam (Spring 2017)
( https://www.city-journal.org/html/ada-litigation-monster-15128.html )
And thank you very much for again giving us more information on the insidious, harmful dangers of the aerial fire retardant.
I had no idea that Zyclon-B was an ingredient. That is what the diabolical, infernal Nazi Death Camps used in their gas chambers!
The Zyclon B, comes from the reaction of theretardant chemicals being applied to the hot fires. It was a process used in an earlier process to make cyanide for gold seperation. The process was dangerous due to the formation of hydrogen cyanide gas (Zyclon B) during the process. So fertilizer clhemicals have more use than retardands and making cheap explosives-heated in the presence of carbon (the burning embers) they create the cyanide as well as the hydrogen cyanide called Zyclon B–as it was named in the use at the German gas chambers. Same gas we used to put Criminals to death with. Since the retardant is in open air it is not concentrated enough to cause immediate death. But even 6 parts per million in the air is known to effect health and those working around it get all sorts of symptoms including cancer–especially lung related. And of course the CIA cyanide pill is a very small pill used if you were to get caught spying and knew it were a better way out than having an angry Arab or other make you into a bloody mess then blade your head off. (That tiny pill will do you in in less than 5–better the torture and Uncle doesn’t want you talking either). But the toxic mix including Bromine is the worse one I suspect that is in the secret ingredients and that chemical is a real health wrecker–a rat poison. But it is cumulative so that over time it overcomes the immune system. That is what happens with the elderly–their immune systems are not as good as when younger–and like the legionaires disease, the retardant chemicals work on the elderly and those with weak immune systems. Legionaires disease was killing the elderly and most especially those that were not dong real well in health. Yet the younger ones exposed did not come down with it. It was almost exclusively a 50 and older disease. That is the story for retardant as well seen at Yarnell –except for those taxed already such as Brent that lived on our street. He was in his 40’s but as a quadraplegic, also depleted in health. Zack Ashoor had issues as well concerning his breating at only 29 years. When I hiked with him he had a very hard time to get up to the two track and back and was having to use a small oxygen container to make it. But he and I were hiking soon after the retardant dumps so we got plenty of the early mixtures. It did not take much to kill him–but in my case over a hundred hikes through that got me–that firrst heart attack was in Helena–I made it to the Hospital but that pain was excruciating. That VA hospital gave me a shot of morphine. They were nurses and did not recognize it as a heart attack because my blood pressure is always so good. I had to later die outside that Prescott VA after seeing two cardiologists. Then the main hospital there recognized it for a heart attack–this time they got serious and fixed me up but gave me only a year to live. Well after more heart attacks and more stents, I finally moved out of the area–and have beat the odds somehow. These chemicals they are spreading in fire retardant are highly toxic–but the young can stand them for a long time.
Corporate profits and since most of these concern companies that are world distributors with their huge hundreds of billions in profits, they know the angles to keep things quiet. They rank with cigarette companies in their abilities to distribute propaganda and lobby for support of their products. It is part of the cost of business and a few millions is chump change. A few are up on the chemistry and toxins involved–but the media is on the side of these people. One thing the media is not much interested in facts these days or exposing wrong doing unless it is a kid shooting up a school and killing 22. Two hundred dead elderly at Yarnell killed by corporate profiteering is not a story they dare to put out. The toxins they are convinced are not toxins at all–just inert substances that saved Yarnell–Shit they did nothing in those extreme winds except enrich a few and kill plenty.
Well, it is not recommended you use that crap to douse your back yard–especially if you are ill already or of an elder age.
There is a dark psychology and propaganda is one of the methods used. Media diversion by not recognizing truth but causing the masses to look at junk like Trump’s melingering is another. But there are some special ones they have fine tuned to keep people away from reality. This Corporate thing is really a disguised Fasism–an elite that values only the profit and their own interests.
These wars are to protect their interests–generally in oil and other things, even diamonds, gold and huge copper mines from which the world bankers, corporation and financiers profit from. We spend very close to a trillion dollars a year now on defense–Trump says we need more. There is much profit in war. But oddly most countries spend about half a billion on defense–perhaps exception would be China and Russia, but even they are way behind our trillon.
Certain you don’t want to screw with America–we can wipe the world off the map about 40 times over. And see if Trump gives a shit about the environment, yet that is getting to a threshold. But golf courses, threats to build an iron curtain and such are big deals.
I lived through this crap of immigration problems during the Eisenhower era. He was building the freeways for fast military and at the same time getting rid of the Mexican farm workers as fast as he could. They kept coming back anyway but now they need them to load up the prisons. You know–they worked for $5 a day while anyone with a decent job here was making $5 an hour. I quit the cowboy job at $5 and started mining at $9 an hour. People just would not work those tough field working jobs for what the farmers were paying–and maybe not for a decent wage.
Now of course the drug business has ballooned. The Mexicans will provide the Gringos that need their drugs. So instead of knocking the drug trade out by making drug areas where drugs are government sponsered–we spend mucho billions fighting the drug war and supporting the prisons, yet every year the problem gets worse. Why–because there is a bull shit story about how heroic our police are at making so many drug arrests and the prisons now are a big private business affair. Nobody wants to stop the system–too many are reaping some fringe bennys.
My opinions–but 30 thousand kids die every year and we spend a trillion on defense–something seems skewed. But an ill informed population is part of the black psychology and there are some Psychologists and even Medical Doctors willing to sell their better self to these Corporate reptiles.
https://townhall.com/columnists/pauldriessen/2020/01/18/fight-fires-with-facts–not-fake-science-n2559720
At least two dozen people have died in Australia’s fires, along with thousands of sheep and cattle, over 2,000 koala bears, and several hundred million other animals. US wildfires have likewise exacted horrific death tolls. A few years ago, Duggan hosted a benefit concert for the families of the Fallen Nineteen, the 19 City of Prescott firefighters who died battling the 2013 lightning-ignited Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona.
I just emailed President Trump to see if he would help assist me with the tools in 2020.
Trump? You think if you are not at least a millionaire with promise to throw funds his way and to his campaign, you will get audience? Anything below a millionaire is a looser in his eyes. He chalks that kind of thing up to whop te doo.
In all truth it is nice to be a Zombie–well a nice Zombie. You know when you are already dead twice you have no agenda, no reason to hold back what is true I have three dogs–big ones in the house tonight—I talk to them and they get it. Usually there is only one–Huskies love the cold and in her I love the warm. But they do not lie–they love me in their way–I am their dinner bucket and they will protect that, but too they think I am a keen guy. If they are out in the desert, then I go hiking, how the hell they know, I don’t know but they find me and they accompany me until I get home. They care, and I care–especially about the young lives that I saw snuffed out because a system was in disarray and broken. Yes broken because 19 lives matter that much so that the truth can not and will not be avoided.
There are many top players in the Frey They will not quit, nor will I until all is revealed. No matter how small my contribution, I know it matters to get at the truth. Thank you Joy, please reveal all you have–you have so many backers of such high qualifications behind your efforts. I promise to post every thing you send to me and immediately. Thank You. .
You make me want to get another dog. No dog can replace Una, but maybe I should give one a chance.
Gary . So let me get this straight… Sonny gets shot by Charlie the dog … makes you want to get a dog .. Gary, but you had you had the finest …no other could be bring you the love and joy quite like ya had. I always enjoyed your footage though of big bronzed athletic Gary in your kick ass rigged up Jeep with this small fiery loving small dog 🥰 🐶 then see you on the beach confronting some folks …
At least Sonny’s appear to look dangerous …yours had NO FEAR just like you.
Well Joy–just get a dog that is not too smart. I was going to say one like yours, but he is smart enough to play with the cats instead of chasing them. He was able to charm you into being his dinner bucket. He even gets special treats. So maybe he is smarter than I thought.
As I like to say, “Una had the courage and heart of a lioness…but the jaws and teeth of a Yorky!”
Which was a bad combination.
We had hoped that some politico would look at the Yarnell affair–you know, a person of clout who can move people. But have you heard the smiley politician address much about why the wild land fire fighters are dying? Have they even mentioned the chemicals, the retardants, the disasters of health to people exposed? I just do not think it will happen–there is money to be made. Think of all the jobs that would be lost they will say–those phosphate miners would be out, the chemical plants and mixers would have to adjust, there would be fewer hospital jobs because of less sickness, and so on even the undertaker will be wont for work.
The same can be said about oil. There is money to be made. There are thousands of jobs depending upon oil. What would it do to the economy and especially the people with big interests in oil and others in oil stocks. If you provide the clean energy it will put countless people out of work.
Free energy? Yes it is feasible and the technology is advanced now to where all sorts of energy is available–the sun is limitless energy–but there is no money there to be made. Once the system is in place it requires very little maintenance. Besides free energy would mean people would not have to work so hard–well except the wild land fire fighter during the fire season. He won’t be buying fuel at a gas station so there goes some more jobs.
Hamburgers will go down in price at MadDonalds–free energy to make them and now you just need to push your plastic money in a slot and out pops a burger and fries with your drink. The price is half what it used to be. Whoopee, I only need to work half an hour to have a Micky Dee where I used to have to work an hour.
Electric cars are really simple–four wheels and a windbreak with doors, not much of a gear box if any and a little bitty motor under the hood that drives the quiet machine with the power of an Indy racer. Relax too, it will drive to your destination for you–just punch in the address and read your paper while you ride along.
No more oil change, no more ocean oil spill nor air pollution. The skys will clear some except for the aluminum dust in the air that looks like dirty clouds from the chem trails. The noisy diesel trucks spewing out their toxic wastes will be gone–the new electric trucks quietly whizzing down the roads with only the whine of the tires. Not even a driver needed except when deliveries are made and even that is greatly automated. And even the farmer–his main cost being the energy for his tractors, vehicles and devices–food prices will drop enormously.
But Trump and Friends say no. There is no money in that. People will not have to work as much. We need phosphate pollution, we need oil pollution, we need, we need and we need to Make America Great again.
Britain was the great imperialist nation and although the crown still has its hooks in many nations. We are now the Great White Buffalo hunters and killers. We need to rule the rule–our Marines, our Navy, Army and Air Force must protect our world wide interests. Trump, et. al., say we have been screwed=-jobs must come back to America —Free energy, free water–Hell No–NO please No–the Trump Dynasty says America depends upon us Trumps. They love our golf courses, our Trump Tower a sight to behold and a great symbol of Americas Greatness.
What really has changed during the Trump dynasty? More men sent to Iraq to die for the oil interests? Oh tell me a lie, like we need to be over there killing terrorists. Shit, tell the truth –oil that black gold but where do the profits go– not much into your pocket–but become a Politician and enjoy the fringe benefits from Corporate and Bank operations–and especially those that fail so often–the slaving tax payer bails them out thanks to these politicos that smile when you vote for them.
So much confusion–but is that not part of the norm. Can a few level heads make changes? I do hope so.
Remember, Holly Neill-
I hope God heals you from the serious Spiritual Warfare you spouted out over time-
You had used the email areas to be so slanderous.
If you think I am wrong – I have the records.
I hope since then God has healed your heart.
You will be accountable to God for the wrongs you have done to so many people.
You should fix it though.
Here is a report courtesy Joy Collura about Dr. Ted Putnam. As you know I hold Ted in the highest regard. His expertise in wild land fire fighting and yeas as a smoke jumper add to his wild land fire fighting death investigation ability. There is no wonder he is considered one of the nations top wild land fire death investigators. He is not one that can be bought or cow towed into quick and unsatisfactory death investigations–why as chief investigator he would not sign off on the 14 Storm King deaths when he was chief investigator there. He did not entertain the idea that the death investigation was thorough enough and did not cover aspects he saw as important to address. Yet the fire gods that have obtained high G numbers had wanted to force a quick closure so went ahead and closed without his sign off. This man has integrity and rather risk his position than agree to do injustice to the investigation of those deaths.
No official in Yavapai county or of State Office would hike Ted to the death site area at Yarnell. He contacted us and as with al that had wanted to pay tribute and hike the area we were at hand. We felt it an honour to hike Ted to the area, especially once we learned of his expertise in wild land fire fighting death investigations. I do not know if any media ever sought him out for his evaluation of what he saw or not, but they should if they did not.
From:
To:
Jacobsen,Mary
Fousek
Melissa
Nunez
Branden
Date:
Subject:
4/5/2016 10:23:52 AM
FW: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering UpYarnell Hill Tragedy
Interesting! Sounds like Putnam is a self-professed Fire Investigator of the Yarnell Fire. Also, his sources aren’t
being revealed so that’s convenient for credibility reasons. Could it be as simple as someone made a mistake and
now we have to live with the consequences? Just my two cents . . .
Mary M Jacobsen
Human Resources Director
201 S. Cortez Street | Prescott, AZ 86303
Ph: 928-777-1216 | Fax: 928-777-1213
[email protected]
WARNING: This email is intended for the use of the addressed person & may contain information that is health related (HIPAA), privileged &/or
confidential. If you are NOT the intended recipient – any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this in error – please delete immediately.
From: Zelms,Alison
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:59 AM
To: Paladini,Jon; McConnell,Craig
Cc: Jacobsen,Mary; Ripley,Linda; Light,Dennis
Subject: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering Up Yarnell Hill Tragedy
Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona
Forestry Division Covering Up
Yarnell Hill Tragedy
TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2016 AT 3 A.M.
A long-anticipated field presentation scheduled today by the Arizona Forestry
Division for the families of 19 incinerated Granite Mountain Hotshots – during
which relatives are to be taken to the site where their loved ones perished —
has been sharply criticized for failing to accurately portray what happened.
During the site visit, participants are to be taken to different locations on the fire site, and wildfire experts are to
provide presentations of what they say is the best-available information about the events that led up to the
deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013, at Yarnell Hill.
A “facilitator guide” book also has been prepared that provides detailed information about key events on on the
day of the fire and those that preceded it.
10/1/2018Page 2
The tour and presentation are touted by the state as a way to provide the families facts about the fire and offer
an opportunity for a healing experience.
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“This product is a true legacy of your loved one that will educate firefighters across the nation and put them in
the shoes and decision-making process of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,” Don Boursier safety and logistics
officer for the Forestry Division, states in a February 25 e-mail to families.
But one of the nation’s leading wildfire fatality experts, who has participated in such events in the past, sharply
criticizes the information to be presented as constituting an inaccurate and misleading portrayal of the events.
“I think the staff ride is an insult to all of [the Hotshots’] loved ones because it [doesn’t tell] the truth,” says Ted
Putnam, a retired wildfire fatality investigator and Chino Valley resident who has conducted an unofficial
investigation into the Yarnell Hill Fire. “The biggest tribute we should do for these firefighters is to tell the truth.”
Putnam was provided a copy of the facilitator guide to be used during the staff ride by New Times, which
obtained it from the state Forestry Division through an Arizona Public Records Law request.
Putnam contends he has direct information from multiple firefighter sources who were at the fire in conjunction
with evidence contained in investigation reports that leave no doubt that the state Forestry Division ordered the
Granite Mountain Hotshots to come off the mountain and go to Yarnell.
“I’ve been in this business longer and know more about this than anybody out there, and this all this screams at
me they were ordered off the top [of the mountain]” Putnam says.
Putnam, a former “smoke jumper,” served as an investigator on high-profile fatal wildfires including the 1990
Dude Fire in Arizona and the 1994 South Canyon Fire in Colorado. Putnam is considered a leading expert in
wild-land fire entrapment and has been cited as a pioneer in advancing scientific knowledge on the subject.
He gained notoriety when he refused to sign the official accident investigation report for the South Canyon Fire,
where 14 hotshots and smoke jumpers were killed, because he believed the report was untrue. Putnam has a
Ph.D. in experimental psychology from the University of Montana.
10/1/2018Page 3
Prescott memorial to the 19 Granite Mountain firefighters who perished in the Yarnell Hill fire.
Arizona Forestry Division
ADVERTISING
His claim directly contradicts the official version of events included in the Forestry Division’s Serious Accident
Investigation Report released in September 2013, and there is no mention of such an order in the upcoming
staff ride document.
The SAI report concluded that no one knows why the crew descended from a safe, burned-over area called ‘the
black’ on the top of the Weaver Mountains and dropped into a box canyon jammed with drought-stricken
chaparral at the hottest time of the day with the wildfire approaching and a massive thunderstorm bearing
down.
“No one realized that the crew left the black and headed southeast, sometime after [4:04 p.m.],” the SAI report
states.
Putnam says the report’s conclusion defies logic. He does not believe that Granite Mountain Hotshots
Superintendent Eric Marsh would have ordered his men to leave their safe zone unless he was pressured by
superiors to get the crew to the town of Yarnell. At the time the crew moved off the mountain, the fire was
sweeping into Yarnell, forcing many residents to evacuate.
“Marsh’s action makes no sense at all unless he was ordered off the top,” Putnam says.
He says he cannot reveal his sources because they provided the information under the promise of
confidentiality. But he says he will provide complete details in a formal setting under oath.
State Forestry Director Jeff Whitney requested a meeting early Monday with New Times to respond to
Putnam’s statements. But Whitney walked out of the interview without saying a word when a reporter began to
set up a video camera to record the interview.
10/1/2018Page 4
A few minutes later, Joy Hernbrode, the division’s deputy director for administrative services, spoke to New
Times.
“I haven’t seen any evidence that supports Mr. Putnam’s claims, so I don’t know what he’s built his belief on,”
Hernbrode says. “But we have looked at all the evidence in the state report, the videos, and it is our opinion that
there isn’t any evidence that anybody was ordered off that mountain. However, if somebody has evidence of
that, we definitely would like to see it.”
Audio evidence has surfaced in records released by the Forestry Division that show Marsh was communicating
about the crew’s movements during a 30-minute period, when the SAI report states there were no verifiable
communications from the crew.
A video clip shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble at 4:27 p.m. picks up an audio exchange between an
unknown firefighter and Marsh. This also occurred during the period when the SAI report states there is was no
verifiable communication by the crew.
While it is difficult to clearly hear the unknown firefighter, it sounds like he was saying “Copy … coming down
and appreciate if it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor.”
Marsh was assigned as a division supervisor on the morning of June 30, and Steed assumed command of the
Granite Mountain crew.
A few seconds later, Marsh replied, “Ah, they’re coming from the heel of the fire.”
Marsh’s widow, Amanda, confirmed it was her late husband’s voice.
Hernbrode says the video does not prove anybody ordered the crew to leave the mountain.
“I don’t know who [Marsh is] talking to,” she says. “More experienced fire folks than I have looked at that and
could not conclude that was evidence that anybody ordered them off.”
Additional evidence of communication between Marsh and other unknown firefighters during the reported
blackout period also surfaced in background audio of an aerial firefighting effectiveness study that was
conducted during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
These audio clips were included in the supplemental materials released with the SAI report but were not
included in the formal report.
10/1/2018Page 5
EXPAND
Wildfire expert Ted Putman
John Dougherty
Today’s staff ride is required under a June 2015 settlement agreement with 12 of the families that filed a $220
million federal lawsuit against the Forestry Division. The agreement requires the state to pay the families a total
of $600,000 while admitting no wrongdoing.
Among the records released by the division is the “Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Facilitator Guide, ” prepared for a trial
staff ride on February 17-18, and the guide for today’s site visit with the Granite Mountain families.
OMNA International, a private contractor that specializes in preparing staff rides for wildfire-fatality sites, as well
as for military battlegrounds, including Gettysburg, prepared the guides under a contract with the U.S. Forest
Service, according to Bill Boyd, Forestry Division public-affairs and legislative officer.
The SAI report has been roundly criticized for its conclusion that nobody did anything wrong, despite 19 “elite”
firefighters getting killed in a box canyon full of explosive desert scrub during rapidly changing weather
conditions.
The guides provide no information concerning the events that led to Granite Mountain’s entrapment that was not
presented in the SAI report.
Putnam says the SAI report – without directly saying so – essentially blames Granite Mountain Hotshot leaders,
Marsh and Steed, for making unilateral decisions that led the crew to their deaths.”
“They are saying virtually all the mistakes were made by Eric and Jesse and that the crew pretty much did this
10/1/2018Page 6
to themselves,” Putnam says.
There’s no question, Putnam says, that Marsh and Steed made a terrible decision to move the crew into the
box canyon and that both men should have refused to follow any Forestry orders or directives requesting they
move the crew.
But, Putnam says, those decisions were not made a vacuum, that the Forestry Division “screwed up just as
bad as Eric and Steed did.”
The guides also do not include reference to findings by the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
in its investigation of the fire.
ADOSH issued two workplace safety citations against the Forestry Division for its mishandling of the blaze that
began on the evening of June 28, 2013. The citations later were dismissed in conjunction with the settlement
agreement with the families.
The guide that will be presented to the families today does mention that a number of basic wild-land firefighting
rules were violated by the Granite Mountain crew in the moments leading up to its entrapment, including the
crew’s moving through desert shrubs without a lookout and not knowing the location of the fire.
Kelly Zombro, a retired former deputy chief for CAL FIRE, who attended the February 17-18 trial staff ride, later
wrote the division urging it to include a section where attendees review basic wild-land firefighter rules of
engagement.
These include the “Ten Standard Orders and 18 Watchout Situations,” as well as four key principles denoted
by the acronym LCES (“Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes, and Safety Zones”).
“Perhaps there would be value in adding a page in the [facilitator guide] that allows participants to review the 10
and 18 and [the] LCES, a back to basics perspective which is what the crew was operating from,” Zombro
stated in a February 22 e-mail to Forestry. “Challenge the attendees to find weak points once the course is
completed.”
While Zombro’s suggestion was ignored, the division and OMNA International incorporated some of the
suggestions made by Mark Kaib, southwest deputy regional fire-management coordinator for the U.S. Fish &
Wildlife Service, for the presentation to the families.
Kaib, in a detailed report of the February staff ride, questioned that guide’s characterization that Granite
Mountain was a very knowledgeable and accomplished crew in the type of terrain and vegetation that was
present in Yarnell.
“That’s a difficult one to support,” he states.
Kaib also questioned whether Granite Mountain leadership allowed the threat to the Yarnell community, 45
miles from Prescott, to “blind their fire behavior situational awareness and risk-assessment process?
“[Granite Mountain leaders] did have good experience and knowledge,” Kaib stated, “but was their experience
10/1/2018Page 7
only sufficient enough to give them the self-confidence to take on greater, possibly unjustified risks?”
The facilitator guide to be presented to the families today includes several factual errors, leaves out a key event
in the timeline, and misquotes a crucial conversation, among other shortcomings, including changing the times
of critical events.
The guide incorrectly states that six inmates from the Yuma state prison were assigned to the Yarnell Hill fire
on June 29. The inmates actually were from Lewis state prison. The six prisoners ran out of chainsaw fuel
shortly before the fire jumped a two-track road on the afternoon of June 29 and began to rapidly expand.
There’s no mention of this in the guide.
In the description of Granite Mountain’s workload in the days leading up to the fire, the guide states that the
crew worked on a wildfire on June 28, but ignores that the crew was assigned to a fire near Prescott on June
29 and reportedly worked 16 hours, according to billing records.
Nor is there any mention that Sunday, June 30, was the crew’s scheduled day off and that its members had
worked 28 of the previous 30 days.
Both the February guide and the updated guide change a crucial conversation captured in a video by one of the
hotshots moments before the crew left the top of the mountain and moved toward Yarnell by descending into a
box canyon packed with volatile chaparral.
In a section called “Tactical Decision Game,” the February guide asks participants to pretend they are Granite
Mountain Hotshots Captain Steed — who had just received a radio call from Marsh, who earlier that day had
been reassigned as a division supervisor — and discuss what the conversation means.
The February guide states that Marsh asks Steed: “[W]hat are you seeing, and what is your comfort level?”
The latest version of the guide states that Marsh asks Steed: “Hey, what do you think about bumping down to
where we can do some good?”
In fact, the dialogue between Marsh and Steed was much different, and suggests that there was a
disagreement between the two men about a decision, perhaps on whether to move to Yarnell.
“Ah, I just, I’m just saying I knew this was coming when I called you and asked how your comfort level was. I
could just feel it, you know,” Marsh says.
A second video clip picks up the conversation a few seconds later. It’s unknown why there is a gap in the video.
In the second clip, Steed tells Marsh, at an unknown location but apparently in a place where he could not see
the blaze, that “the fire had almost made it [to the] two-track road” on which they had hiked in that morning.
The facilitator guide does not address where Marsh might have been. Nor does it include subsequent
information widely reported in 2015 that the crew’s sole survivor, Brendon McDonough, heard Marsh and Steed
argue over the group’s radio frequency whether to move the men — with Marsh eventually ordering Steed, a
former Marine, to do just that.
10/1/2018Page 8
The two video clips were taken with Granite Mountain Hotshot Chris MacKenzie’s Canon video camera. The
camera survived the fire intact and was included in MacKenzie’s list of belongings during his autopsy on July 2,
2013, by the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner.
The camera, however, did not go directly from the medical examiner’s office to the Serious Accident
Investigation Team. Instead, it was sent to MacKenzie’s father, who later discovered it still was functioning.
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office was in charge of gathering evidence from the medical examiner’s office
and providing it to wildfire investigators.
View looking east into the box canyon where the hotshots were trapped and burned to death.
Arizona Forestry Division
Among the experts who made presentations during the initial staff ride was former Prescott Wildlands Division
Chief Darrell Willis, who oversaw the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Willis said in a July 23, 2013, interview at the deployment site that “we’ll never know” why the crew moved off
the mountain but that he believed they were doing it to protect structures in Yarnell.
“It’s just one of those things that happened,” Willis said. “You can call it an accident. I just say God had a
different plan for that crew at this time.”
The family guide includes a 1930 essay, “The Courage to Be,” written by John A. Lejeune and a one-page open
letter to the city of Prescott written in March 2013 by Marsh during a period when the Prescott City Council was
considering eliminating the crew.
Lejeune’s essay glorifies the death of brave Marines who followed orders from a strong and just leader.
“If each man knows that all the officers and men in his division are animated with the same fiery zeal as he
himself feels, unquenchable courage and unconquerable determination crush out fear, and death becomes
preferable to defeat and dishonor,” Lejeune states.
Marsh sought in his letter to define the hotshots and their work ethic.
“We are not nameless or faceless, we are not expendable, we are not satisfied with mediocrity, we are not
10/1/2018Page 9
willing to accept being average, we are not quitters.” he wrote. “We don’t just call ourselves hotshots. We are
hotshots in everything we do.”
Alison Zelms
Deputy City Manager
201 S. Cortez Street | Prescott, AZ 86303
Ph: 928-777-1220 | Fax: 928-777-1255
[email protected]
We will never know why the crew moved off the mountain Willis? Well if you don’t know, I can tell you–they were ordered off that mountain.
The dishonesty in all this investigation by the powers in wild land and FS investigations has been ever abundant. The attorneys and others involved in the cover up certainly are looking out for their own interests and have little concern about issues involving safety and future lives of people fighting wild fires. And perhaps that is the way things are–attorneys represent the State vs the Public in this sense–the state pays their salaries and isn’t it ironic the state is funded by the tax payer and supposes to represent the public.
Joy, your continued revelations are power for the course of getting to the truth–and seven years is what it took even before the government got around to looking into the the office fire that they claimed caused 47 stories robustly constructed building 7 to fall exactly as if it were a demolition job. As in the deaths of the 19, the feds had their own investigators do the investigation–and despite the protest of 1700 engineers said a diesel fire caused the perfect collapse.
If you want the investigation to be honest, then you would make sure you had an unbiased investigator involved. But of course the Yarnell incident was a collaborated event. When Joy and I took her photos to the Fire Chief at Prescott, they said we already know what happened and do not need those photos. They had second thoughts and stopped us as we were leaving in the parking lot–they thought they might be interesting. And indeed they were and still are–perfect photos of terrain, people, placements of vehicles and so on during the fire and immediately before–origionally almost 1500–it took a CD and some time for them to download.
I think the Adosh people were honest in their investigation. They laid down a heavy fine to the State FS and although their expertise was not in wild land fire fighting investigations they could see wrong was done. But in all fairness, how can you investigate wild land fires unless you have lived the situation? It would be like me trying to instruct a crew how to battle a fire–I would go down like Marsh did since I would not have a clue.
What would be ideal would be Dr. Ted Putnam, RTS, DNA, Gary Olson, Norb, WTKTT, JD, Woodsman, and a few others I have not mentioned to assemble an investigation with all records, authority to interview all parties involved such as Blue Ridge who have been ordered mum, and have access to phone records, etc. wherever necessary. Then we would come out with a trusted, official and unbiased decision attended by a person of high qualifications to oversee the civilian side. This would clear the air.
But you know, I doubt the politico’s will allow. So about your only hope to know the truth is to visit Investigative Media–those professionals post here because their protests are not appreciated on any other wild land fire media.
That was a bad statement–I would not go down into that canyon because I did not –and even went back to prevent Joy–but still a better idea would be it would be like me trying to fly a 747–you need at least a year of handling the situations before you could hope to even keep the thing in the air. I have often wondered how those Arabs that learned how to handle a piper cub could take hold of a 747 airliner and drive it perfectly into the Twin Towers and also pilot one perfectly into the Pentagon. Well it made Bush’s dream come true–he could protect his oil interests and get access to the treasures of Iraq.
I do believe 20% of the population are perhaps considered by the 1% that have most of the wealth to be valued and 80% of the rest of us are so much meat–even an excess and expendable. Yes I know–there are exceptions to the rule.
So let us address the retardant issue–it has killed more than the 19 and specifically you can list approximately 200 deaths at Yarnell because of retardant dumps that inundated that small village of 645. That census of course includes the upper crust of Glen Isla.
Well 200:19 is a tough ratio but 19 are heroes and 200 are guinea pigs. I can not judge if that is a balance since to me any life is valuable. So maybe when the good Congressman names and flags the ship he will add a few regards to the fallen 200. Maybe call it the GMHS Yarnell 19-200.
Maybe we should wait until it is 219 before naming the ship. The Yarnell deaths in the past 7 years have made the Guinness Book of Records for elderly and depleted immune system deaths, even beating out Legionaries disease. Are the elderly really that improtant to this Congressman? That retardant is a killer and who is this guy?
Let us see if this Congressman so eager to name a ship really bothers to investigate.
Charlie,
Dr. Putnam is a good man. My IHC Supt. back in the day was invited to SKM to asses the findings and agreed with Dr. P. He has always been and always will be the most professional and sought after Fire Investigator on this planet. “Holly”, is it? Humm, never heard of you, pffft. When men like Dr. Putnam speak, firefighters that know better listen. We all don’t like hearing things sometimes, doesn’t mean we blast someone that has more experience, knowledge and training in investigations and causal factors than both of the “Teams” combined that spoon fed us BS. Anyone that has spent real time in the industry knows and trusts Dr. Putnam. He doesn’t fall for the banana in the tail pipe trick (Beverly Hills Cop, he,he) and knows when something isn’t right. Yes the powers that are unfortunately in charge do not want him to really look at things, that would mean a bunch of people would be wearing the pin-stripe uniform. Seriously though, Dr. Putnam is kind, honest and smart as they come.
I appreciated the time he gave me when I called him, he has nothing to hide and has the men’s best interests in mind as well as everyone else. Charlie, you and Joy and RTS have been so kind and truthful, thank you. Thank you for doing the right things and standing up for truth. However painful, however hard you all have stuck in there. Joy your records pulling skills are off the chart good. Lots of good vibes to you all and to Miss Joy, a mighty might, a gift to us all. Charlie you’re a good apple, keep it up.
DownhillIndirect
What DND has said could not be told better. Dr. Ted Putnam is a hero in the fire fighting business for not only saving lives by direct action, his mental and intellectual work is saving lives by his recommendations for change and investigations to make those changes. He would be an equal to a Terry Bradshaw in his line of business.
We have other wild land fire fighters here with those abilities. They are espousing the rules and discipline that made them winners in a game that is even more serious than football. It is a game that involves life or death and speaks to the importance of knowing the rules and how important it is to respect and apply them–most especially when the lives of others on your team depend upon your decisions.
When I read DND’s address to the fire fighters and the situations they endure, I could understand the importance these young fellows have to understand and practice the rules that will keep them alive. Even more so the bosses must know and practice these rules–no excuses for killing the crew and yourself by rejecting them as GMHS crew did all four basic rules, in order to allegedly protect structures.
This “Hillbilly” was standing on the two track beside Joy the very place they went down into the bowl. I had no knowledge of the LCES, but I could see at the time the motion of the fire–it was moving fast toward the NE and Peeples Valley. The breeze behind it was negligent but I had Joy time it up a mountain (I never carried a cell phone on hikes). It took a meer 14 minutes to take over that hill and we were watching a fire that no Army of a 1000 men could have deterred, and 20 men would be like a mouse fighting an elephant.
You had to know with our vantage point and the proximate distance of the fireI (estimated only 3 miles distant) that to drop off into that bowl with steep bluffs on all sides would be suicidal behaviour. We had lightning strikes visible to the NE at about 30 miles distance in the higher mountain ranges near Prescott. It was obvious to me that the fire would change direction any moment. You certainly did not want to be trapped in the brush below in a canyon where there would be no escape–although there were boulders with cavities and areas one could get below ground and if the smoke did not kill him/her, the persons might escape. Yet watching the advance of that fire with only a breeze, one can imagine the time needed to get into the pile through the 70-100 yards of the dense brush might not be enough.
It was I think about 11:30am when we timed that movement that I sensed that even where we were on the two track that the alarm bells and adrenalin arose in my body. Joy, I yelled “We got to get the hell out of here”. Well, Joy said you go your way out, I am going down and skirt the bowl. Just over the top of the Weavers on the western side of the mountains the mountain side is almost devoid of vegetation except for a few small washes going down. There you had a safe area you could continue on down the mountain. There were also bouldery areas similar to what the GMHS crew had an option to use. I had figured to go down that way in case the fire were to catch up, the I could use the protection of the boulders to survive.
I had hoped Joy would follow me. From where she was on the two track, it must have taken 25 minutes to be very close to the safe area. But Joy in her stubborn way had not followed–she was adamant on going her way into the death zone. I could have continued on but I had two things to deal with the first being I would be living with a bad conscience for the rest of my life and second, knowing Arizona, I would likely be doing a life sentence for murder. Arizona is hungry for prisoners for the many new facilities they are building and have built to house prisoners. They need bodies to fill them so there is justification for the tax monies supporting these institutions. I don’t want to be one of the victims.
So I headed back down the mountain and Joy says “It took you 40 minutes to get back to me” as if she were a Psychic (I think she is). And those 40 minutes were valuable since indeed it was 10 minutes or less that we were able to evade being roasted to death as were the GMHS crew.
This time I used stern words and was ready to take her by the arm and drag her out if necessary. She is a strong lady to have to drag. But our argument about the way to go was not going to hold this time. She donned her boots and back up the mountain we went. All went well, albeit by the skin of our teeth because along last in that 100F and greater Arizona heat and the adrenaline rush I was having it was also bringing on heat stroke. We along the last were both depleted–if a needed rest in the shade had of been taken during our drive back to the vehicle, we both would have been killed.
Strangely, as hurried as we were, I thought we would have had at least an hour to escape the flames. Yet people were fleeing down Foothills drive and we could see that the flames and smoke were only a quarter mile up the street coming our way. Fortunately the flames are slowed some by the city streets and areas. We were able to escape unharmed except Joy complained that my way had her going to a chiropracter for a week recovering from sliding down boulders. But better than being treated to a ride to the cemetery with no honors.
So you see, it was baffling to me, that old ‘hillbilly” that GMHS crew would at least an hour later would come to that very spot and then drop off into that trap canyon. Joy’s photos where we had our first argument and she won out was at the very spot the men died sometime about daybreak. It reveals the brush in that area–we were having to crawl on our bellies to get through some of it, and often backtradking and searching out areas we could do that in order to transverse across that bowl.
I could only account for their taking orders from headquarters and I had said that many times. That was confirmed in my mind when I read the creed of the wild land fire fighter who must strictly take orders on a daily basis. It was what the boss above you said, no matter what–and that posted creed said nothing about you must follow LCES and other common sense directives to stay alive and safe. It was the militaristic idea that your common sense rules were using the term “hillbilly” in what Donut meant was not relevant to his way of doing things–by chance. Strangely, Donut himself had to be saved or he also would have been killed.
It was not until later when Joy and I saw fire fighters lighting up the Shrine area that I realized how quickly the fire could have gotten us even coming out as we did. We were out of the think brush but still in an area even in the clear sand draws and on the gravel road we would have been killed. That fire was laying down in that wind 50-100 ft. with flames that was melting lead and aluminum. The hot air and smoke alone would have killed us.
The facts are Joy’s photos of the bowl that very day give testimony of how ignorant and I would add stupid some are to cause that situation that would encounter a trap with no escape route and follow orders with such obedience to know they are at a risk that has every indication of a bad outcome–likely and surely did end in the horrific deaths of the 19.
There is every reason to expose the truth to the wild land fire fighting community and to the public. There is every reason to change hiring methods, evaluation of boss candidates, and instead of strict obedience to the boss, strict obedience to the safety rules where the boss is ordering the breaking of such common sense rules. DND, RTS, Dr. Putnam, et. al. are 100% correct from an informed citizens view–and from the view I am certain of many safe and alive wild land fire fighters who do refuse situations that are against the simple safe proceedures. Structures will never be worth the lives of these young heroes.
Sonny – Holy F**king Shizer! I always said you would have made a good Hot Shot. And Joy too.
You are spot on with your human factors, fire weather, fire behavior, and every other assessment that you posted here. Holy FS!
I posted these the other day and posting them again because you just verified so much covered in these training and research documents, And the GTR-191 is at no cost (your tax dollars at work)
Werth et al (2011) Synthesis of Knowledge of Extreme Fire Behavior for Managers. Parts 1 and 2 . GTR-191 ( https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/39553 )
They then disingenuously proceeded to hike through chimney and chute and ultimately into a bowl choked with desiccated, volatile unburned chaparral.
<b? 52 minutes from blow-up to burnover!
( https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/03/26/firefighters-dont-squander-the-early-morning-hours/ )
There is ALWAYS every reason to expose the truth to the wild land fire fighting community and to the public, otherwise all we learn are lies and incomplete lessons..
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on
January 18, 2020 at 3:40 pm
>> RTS posted a link…
>>
>> https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/03/26/firefighters-dont-squander-the-early-morning-hours/ )
From the article…
———————————————————————–
Sixteen of the burnover incidents occurred during a two hour period, between 1448 and 1642. The blowups that led to the fatalities occurred an average of 24 minutes earlier.
————————————————————————
Spot on for Yarnell, 2013.
And don’t forget the Arizona State Agency-Wide Firefighting bulletin that was issued just 14 days before the Yarnell tragedy, WARNING ALL ARIZONA FIREFIGHTERS that drought conditions state-wide were now such that they should EXPECT ( quote ) “extreme fire behaviorunlike many have probably ever seen before”
WTKTT, thanks fro bringing that up. And yet, the GMHS was a local IHC in their own turf and had been on the Doce Fire a week or so before with fire behavior clearly depicted in this warning bulletin.
It boggles the mind. Eternal WTF
MOre revelations–I hope I did not double post, if so please disregard:
From:
To:
Jacobsen,Mary
Fousek
Melissa
Nunez
Branden
Date:
Subject:
4/5/2016 10:23:52 AM
FW: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering UpYarnell Hill Tragedy
Interesting! Sounds like Putnam is a self-professed Fire Investigator of the Yarnell Fire. Also, his sources aren’t
being revealed so that’s convenient for credibility reasons. Could it be as simple as someone made a mistake and
now we have to live with the consequences? Just my two cents . . .
Mary M Jacobsen
Human Resources Director
201 S. Cortez Street | Prescott, AZ 86303
Ph: 928-777-1216 | Fax: 928-777-1213
[email protected]
WARNING: This email is intended for the use of the addressed person & may contain information that is health related (HIPAA), privileged &/or
confidential. If you are NOT the intended recipient – any disclosure, copying, distribution or use of the contents is strictly prohibited. If you have received
this in error – please delete immediately.
From: Zelms,Alison
Sent: Tuesday, April 05, 2016 7:59 AM
To: Paladini,Jon; McConnell,Craig
Cc: Jacobsen,Mary; Ripley,Linda; Light,Dennis
Subject: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering Up Yarnell Hill Tragedy
Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona
Forestry Division Covering Up
Yarnell Hill Tragedy
TUESDAY, APRIL 5, 2016 AT 3 A.M.
A long-anticipated field presentation scheduled today by the Arizona Forestry
Division for the families of 19 incinerated Granite Mountain Hotshots – during
which relatives are to be taken to the site where their loved ones perished —
has been sharply criticized for failing to accurately portray what happened.
During the site visit, participants are to be taken to different locations on the fire site, and wildfire experts are to
provide presentations of what they say is the best-available information about the events that led up to the
deaths of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on June 30, 2013, at Yarnell Hill.
A “facilitator guide” book also has been prepared that provides detailed information about key events on on the
day of the fire and those that preceded it.
10/1/2018Page 2
The tour and presentation are touted by the state as a way to provide the families facts about the fire and offer
an opportunity for a healing experience.
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“This product is a true legacy of your loved one that will educate firefighters across the nation and put them in
the shoes and decision-making process of the Granite Mountain Hotshots,” Don Boursier safety and logistics
officer for the Forestry Division, states in a February 25 e-mail to families.
But one of the nation’s leading wildfire fatality experts, who has participated in such events in the past, sharply
criticizes the information to be presented as constituting an inaccurate and misleading portrayal of the events.
“I think the staff ride is an insult to all of [the Hotshots’] loved ones because it [doesn’t tell] the truth,” says Ted
Putnam, a retired wildfire fatality investigator and Chino Valley resident who has conducted an unofficial
investigation into the Yarnell Hill Fire. “The biggest tribute we should do for these firefighters is to tell the truth.”
Putnam was provided a copy of the facilitator guide to be used during the staff ride by New Times, which
obtained it from the state Forestry Division through an Arizona Public Records Law request.
Putnam contends he has direct information from multiple firefighter sources who were at the fire in conjunction
with evidence contained in investigation reports that leave no doubt that the state Forestry Division ordered the
Granite Mountain Hotshots to come off the mountain and go to Yarnell.
“I’ve been in this business longer and know more about this than anybody out there, and this all this screams at
me they were ordered off the top [of the mountain]” Putnam says.
Putnam, a former “smoke jumper,” served as an investigator on high-profile fatal wildfires including the 1990
Dude Fire in Arizona and the 1994 South Canyon Fire in Colorado. Putnam is considered a leading expert in
wild-land fire entrapment and has been cited as a pioneer in advancing scientific knowledge on the subject.
He gained notoriety when he refused to sign the official accident investigation report for the South Canyon Fire,
where 14 hotshots and smoke jumpers were killed, because he believed the report was untrue. Putnam has a
Ph.D. in experimental psychology from the University of Montana.
10/1/2018Page 3
Prescott memorial to the 19 Granite Mountain firefighters who perished in the Yarnell Hill fire.
Arizona Forestry Division
ADVERTISING
His claim directly contradicts the official version of events included in the Forestry Division’s Serious Accident
Investigation Report released in September 2013, and there is no mention of such an order in the upcoming
staff ride document.
The SAI report concluded that no one knows why the crew descended from a safe, burned-over area called ‘the
black’ on the top of the Weaver Mountains and dropped into a box canyon jammed with drought-stricken
chaparral at the hottest time of the day with the wildfire approaching and a massive thunderstorm bearing
down.
“No one realized that the crew left the black and headed southeast, sometime after [4:04 p.m.],” the SAI report
states.
Putnam says the report’s conclusion defies logic. He does not believe that Granite Mountain Hotshots
Superintendent Eric Marsh would have ordered his men to leave their safe zone unless he was pressured by
superiors to get the crew to the town of Yarnell. At the time the crew moved off the mountain, the fire was
sweeping into Yarnell, forcing many residents to evacuate.
“Marsh’s action makes no sense at all unless he was ordered off the top,” Putnam says.
He says he cannot reveal his sources because they provided the information under the promise of
confidentiality. But he says he will provide complete details in a formal setting under oath.
State Forestry Director Jeff Whitney requested a meeting early Monday with New Times to respond to
Putnam’s statements. But Whitney walked out of the interview without saying a word when a reporter began to
set up a video camera to record the interview.
10/1/2018Page 4
A few minutes later, Joy Hernbrode, the division’s deputy director for administrative services, spoke to New
Times.
“I haven’t seen any evidence that supports Mr. Putnam’s claims, so I don’t know what he’s built his belief on,”
Hernbrode says. “But we have looked at all the evidence in the state report, the videos, and it is our opinion that
there isn’t any evidence that anybody was ordered off that mountain. However, if somebody has evidence of
that, we definitely would like to see it.”
Audio evidence has surfaced in records released by the Forestry Division that show Marsh was communicating
about the crew’s movements during a 30-minute period, when the SAI report states there were no verifiable
communications from the crew.
A video clip shot by Blue Ridge Hotshot Ronald Gamble at 4:27 p.m. picks up an audio exchange between an
unknown firefighter and Marsh. This also occurred during the period when the SAI report states there is was no
verifiable communication by the crew.
While it is difficult to clearly hear the unknown firefighter, it sounds like he was saying “Copy … coming down
and appreciate if it if you could go a little faster, but you’re the supervisor.”
Marsh was assigned as a division supervisor on the morning of June 30, and Steed assumed command of the
Granite Mountain crew.
A few seconds later, Marsh replied, “Ah, they’re coming from the heel of the fire.”
Marsh’s widow, Amanda, confirmed it was her late husband’s voice.
Hernbrode says the video does not prove anybody ordered the crew to leave the mountain.
“I don’t know who [Marsh is] talking to,” she says. “More experienced fire folks than I have looked at that and
could not conclude that was evidence that anybody ordered them off.”
Additional evidence of communication between Marsh and other unknown firefighters during the reported
blackout period also surfaced in background audio of an aerial firefighting effectiveness study that was
conducted during the Yarnell Hill Fire.
These audio clips were included in the supplemental materials released with the SAI report but were not
included in the formal report.
10/1/2018Page 5
EXPAND
Wildfire expert Ted Putman
John Dougherty
Today’s staff ride is required under a June 2015 settlement agreement with 12 of the families that filed a $220
million federal lawsuit against the Forestry Division. The agreement requires the state to pay the families a total
of $600,000 while admitting no wrongdoing.
Among the records released by the division is the “Yarnell Hill Staff Ride Facilitator Guide, ” prepared for a trial
staff ride on February 17-18, and the guide for today’s site visit with the Granite Mountain families.
OMNA International, a private contractor that specializes in preparing staff rides for wildfire-fatality sites, as well
as for military battlegrounds, including Gettysburg, prepared the guides under a contract with the U.S. Forest
Service, according to Bill Boyd, Forestry Division public-affairs and legislative officer.
The SAI report has been roundly criticized for its conclusion that nobody did anything wrong, despite 19 “elite”
firefighters getting killed in a box canyon full of explosive desert scrub during rapidly changing weather
conditions.
The guides provide no information concerning the events that led to Granite Mountain’s entrapment that was not
presented in the SAI report.
Putnam says the SAI report – without directly saying so – essentially blames Granite Mountain Hotshot leaders,
Marsh and Steed, for making unilateral decisions that led the crew to their deaths.”
“They are saying virtually all the mistakes were made by Eric and Jesse and that the crew pretty much did this
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to themselves,” Putnam says.
There’s no question, Putnam says, that Marsh and Steed made a terrible decision to move the crew into the
box canyon and that both men should have refused to follow any Forestry orders or directives requesting they
move the crew.
But, Putnam says, those decisions were not made a vacuum, that the Forestry Division “screwed up just as
bad as Eric and Steed did.”
The guides also do not include reference to findings by the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health
in its investigation of the fire.
ADOSH issued two workplace safety citations against the Forestry Division for its mishandling of the blaze that
began on the evening of June 28, 2013. The citations later were dismissed in conjunction with the settlement
agreement with the families.
The guide that will be presented to the families today does mention that a number of basic wild-land firefighting
rules were violated by the Granite Mountain crew in the moments leading up to its entrapment, including the
crew’s moving through desert shrubs without a lookout and not knowing the location of the fire.
Kelly Zombro, a retired former deputy chief for CAL FIRE, who attended the February 17-18 trial staff ride, later
wrote the division urging it to include a section where attendees review basic wild-land firefighter rules of
engagement.
These include the “Ten Standard Orders and 18 Watchout Situations,” as well as four key principles denoted
by the acronym LCES (“Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes, and Safety Zones”).
“Perhaps there would be value in adding a page in the [facilitator guide] that allows participants to review the 10
and 18 and [the] LCES, a back to basics perspective which is what the crew was operating from,” Zombro
stated in a February 22 e-mail to Forestry. “Challenge the attendees to find weak points once the course is
completed.”
While Zombro’s suggestion was ignored, the division and OMNA International incorporated some of the
suggestions made by Mark Kaib, southwest deputy regional fire-management coordinator for the U.S. Fish &
Wildlife Service, for the presentation to the families.
Kaib, in a detailed report of the February staff ride, questioned that guide’s characterization that Granite
Mountain was a very knowledgeable and accomplished crew in the type of terrain and vegetation that was
present in Yarnell.
“That’s a difficult one to support,” he states.
Kaib also questioned whether Granite Mountain leadership allowed the threat to the Yarnell community, 45
miles from Prescott, to “blind their fire behavior situational awareness and risk-assessment process?
“[Granite Mountain leaders] did have good experience and knowledge,” Kaib stated, “but was their experience
10/1/2018Page 7
only sufficient enough to give them the self-confidence to take on greater, possibly unjustified risks?”
The facilitator guide to be presented to the families today includes several factual errors, leaves out a key event
in the timeline, and misquotes a crucial conversation, among other shortcomings, including changing the times
of critical events.
The guide incorrectly states that six inmates from the Yuma state prison were assigned to the Yarnell Hill fire
on June 29. The inmates actually were from Lewis state prison. The six prisoners ran out of chainsaw fuel
shortly before the fire jumped a two-track road on the afternoon of June 29 and began to rapidly expand.
There’s no mention of this in the guide.
In the description of Granite Mountain’s workload in the days leading up to the fire, the guide states that the
crew worked on a wildfire on June 28, but ignores that the crew was assigned to a fire near Prescott on June
29 and reportedly worked 16 hours, according to billing records.
Nor is there any mention that Sunday, June 30, was the crew’s scheduled day off and that its members had
worked 28 of the previous 30 days.
Both the February guide and the updated guide change a crucial conversation captured in a video by one of the
hotshots moments before the crew left the top of the mountain and moved toward Yarnell by descending into a
box canyon packed with volatile chaparral.
In a section called “Tactical Decision Game,” the February guide asks participants to pretend they are Granite
Mountain Hotshots Captain Steed — who had just received a radio call from Marsh, who earlier that day had
been reassigned as a division supervisor — and discuss what the conversation means.
The February guide states that Marsh asks Steed: “[W]hat are you seeing, and what is your comfort level?”
The latest version of the guide states that Marsh asks Steed: “Hey, what do you think about bumping down to
where we can do some good?”
In fact, the dialogue between Marsh and Steed was much different, and suggests that there was a
disagreement between the two men about a decision, perhaps on whether to move to Yarnell.
“Ah, I just, I’m just saying I knew this was coming when I called you and asked how your comfort level was. I
could just feel it, you know,” Marsh says.
A second video clip picks up the conversation a few seconds later. It’s unknown why there is a gap in the video.
In the second clip, Steed tells Marsh, at an unknown location but apparently in a place where he could not see
the blaze, that “the fire had almost made it [to the] two-track road” on which they had hiked in that morning.
The facilitator guide does not address where Marsh might have been. Nor does it include subsequent
information widely reported in 2015 that the crew’s sole survivor, Brendon McDonough, heard Marsh and Steed
argue over the group’s radio frequency whether to move the men — with Marsh eventually ordering Steed, a
former Marine, to do just that.
10/1/2018Page 8
The two video clips were taken with Granite Mountain Hotshot Chris MacKenzie’s Canon video camera. The
camera survived the fire intact and was included in MacKenzie’s list of belongings during his autopsy on July 2,
2013, by the Maricopa County Office of the Medical Examiner.
The camera, however, did not go directly from the medical examiner’s office to the Serious Accident
Investigation Team. Instead, it was sent to MacKenzie’s father, who later discovered it still was functioning.
The Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office was in charge of gathering evidence from the medical examiner’s office
and providing it to wildfire investigators.
View looking east into the box canyon where the hotshots were trapped and burned to death.
Arizona Forestry Division
Among the experts who made presentations during the initial staff ride was former Prescott Wildlands Division
Chief Darrell Willis, who oversaw the Granite Mountain Hotshots.
Willis said in a July 23, 2013, interview at the deployment site that “we’ll never know” why the crew moved off
the mountain but that he believed they were doing it to protect structures in Yarnell.
“It’s just one of those things that happened,” Willis said. “You can call it an accident. I just say God had a
different plan for that crew at this time.”
The family guide includes a 1930 essay, “The Courage to Be,” written by John A. Lejeune and a one-page open
letter to the city of Prescott written in March 2013 by Marsh during a period when the Prescott City Council was
considering eliminating the crew.
Lejeune’s essay glorifies the death of brave Marines who followed orders from a strong and just leader.
“If each man knows that all the officers and men in his division are animated with the same fiery zeal as he
himself feels, unquenchable courage and unconquerable determination crush out fear, and death becomes
preferable to defeat and dishonor,” Lejeune states.
Marsh sought in his letter to define the hotshots and their work ethic.
“We are not nameless or faceless, we are not expendable, we are not satisfied with mediocrity, we are not
10/1/2018Page 9
willing to accept being average, we are not quitters.” he wrote. “We don’t just call ourselves hotshots. We are
hotshots in everything we do.”
Alison Zelms
Deputy City Manager
201 S. Cortez Street | Prescott, AZ 86303
Ph: 928-777-1220 | Fax: 928-777-1255
[email protected]
Whew–If Ted said these things the we best all perk up our ears and listen. This man is considered the top wild land fire investigator for fire deaths in the nation, bar none. You are well and truthfully informed by this man. I could never understand why a movie could be made without his sanctions.
If you want to understand why the 19 GMHS deaths occurred then Dr. Ted Putnam would be the first on your list to consult. Otherwise go to Donut or Amanda as they did in the movie to get your low down. Whew, stupid is hard to cure.
Remember in those PRRs 2 received it said a half million dollars but what Dr Ted Putnam get?
Refused to go to site but Holly got to go..
Make sense of that?
Thanks for the compliment RTS especially from a person of your ilk, I know that your efforts for correcting problems that have injured and killed wild land fire fighters will bear much fruit. I can, as others do only admire your abilities and honesty to get things right. It is one thing to see the wrong, but you and others with the credentials are the key to make the changes that will save lives. I know you have no tolerance for bull shit–it is either correct or wrong. And that is how it has to be to save people from injury or death. I know this because you and others have proved it–the straight and narrow is the only way to success and safety for the young ones at fire fighting.
Firefighting is likely more dangerous than underground mining. But in either case there is a way to do things to keep yourself and your helpers alive. If you skirt those safety procedures for any reason then you have increased your odds of injury or death many fold. Yet in either occupation you find people willing to do just that for whatever human reasons they use to justify those actions.
If Eric Marsh and his cadre of people did any good, it was to emphasize the importance of paying attention to the common sense safety rules. Killing your self and your whole crew of 19 is no small example of reckless abandon concerning lives and their safety. That certainly was an accent on safety issues and certainly not an accident.
It seems we rehash things much. And we do. But repetition is the only way people get it. To cease and desist would end the matter and the flow would go back to the unhealthy risking of live and the count of deaths would increase. But protest eventually will bend the ears of the people that can orchestrate change. They will listen to RTS, Dr. Ted, WTKTT, Woodsman, DND, Norb, and the many fellows that post on IM with impeccable records and wisdom created from long time wild land fire fighting experience.
I do hope that the Congressmen and women visit here to see what you fellows post–then they can see how abusive the system is and how it needs change–not only safety wise but also financial wise. The pay does not meet with the danger– and certainly those in charge of lives need to be paid very well also. Take some of those billions the retardant corporations make and put into training to save lives and also to make lives more comfortable for those risking it all.
Sonny, thanks for the compliments. I think each of the various work groups, and there are many have their own unique hazards, especially underground mining. We must learn and follow the Rules of Engagement for each one of them if we want to survive and thrive. We have all read stories or watched documentaries about mining disasters.
You posted: “RTS, Dr. Ted, WTKTT, Woodsman, DND, Norb, and the many fellows that post on IM with impeccable records and wisdom created from long time wild land fire fighting experience.”
We all have our own unique wisdom too with a lot more similarities there. I will have to say that I think the ONLY one on that list with even close to an impeccable record would be Dr. Ted. I’ve heard him tell stories of his SMJ days.
You make the point about the lessons that Marsh and the GMHS taught us – what we have been preaching all along. And they certainly taught us some hard lessons of what NOT to do.
There are a several human factors and psychology researchers (Tinney and Baumeister and others ) promoting that the greater power of bad events over good ones is found in everyday events, major life events like the tragic YH Fire.
Below is a link to a 2001 research paper by Baumeister and others titled: Bad Is Stronger Than Good. The book that he wrote with Tinney is titled “The Power of Bad”
( https://assets.csom.umn.edu/assets/71516.pdf )
Rather than moral or aesthetic bad, the authors focus on what they call negativity bias . That bias means an unfortunate impression outweighs a good one. Like when a financial loss is more painful than an equivalent gain.
Something worth mulling over either way. The GMHS had plenty of bad decisions with good outcomes and near misses that they failed to learn from. And all that still led them along their steady drift into failure.
RTS knows the way to keep people safe and alive and his instructions as austere as the might seem to be, are life saving methods. Certain there are a few things that happen–a meteorite might strike you dead–I actually had one go though my pick up bed between Saffford and The Wilcox Overpass. One hell of a bang in the night so much so I pulled over. I could not see anything wrong so drove on home. The next day I looked in my bed and saw something had gone through it from above about the size of a golf ball and about the size of the hole in my back from the shot gun–both big bangs. It took my brain some time to register that the fresh hole and the bang heard all came from heaven–God took a shot at me but barely missed. Near misses are only good in horse shoes and hand grenades.
So yes there are accidents, God causes, and rotton trees blown over you in a wind that you could not predict. But there are damn few accidents And people that practice texting and phone talk on the road have cause the 34% increase in car accidents–they just do not follow good safety habits. Those that do you see pulled over talking or texting on their phones. And the wild land fire fighter that learns and understands how to practice even the simple Location, Communication, Escape route, and Safety Zone will never drop his crew off into a dead end canyon, without an escape route, have no lookout or in the case of Donut two canyons over by himself, a nd not keep informed and inform others of his dumb actions until the fire is breathing down his neck.
RTS has the proper terminology because he followed common sense rules of safety and has the habit of following safe procedures. He knows and teaches them by example as well. His crews and crew bosses that understand his example have retired with all their men intact and mostly even without injuries, although I am certain there were some unavoidable falls in rocky and steep areas like the area between the two track and the death Zone of the GMHS crew.
Lots of rehash here–Yet it takes 21 times according to some Psychologists for ideas to register permanently on the brain. So maybe some of the newbies at wild land fire fighting will get it and survive. I understand that Donut has retired so he might not need more trainging–things have gotten more lucrative for him in the movie industry and the paid Speaking engagements to inform Wild Land Fire Fighting audiences. I don’t know if he knows the LCES yet or the 10 and 18 but I know he has felt the pain from knowing they were not followed at Yarnell.
Charlie,
I know that some of what I have said may sound like a broken record. I have the upmost respect for all of the IM posters and all of the hard work all of you have put into “Finding Mavericks”, so to speak. Mavericks, a very large wave break outside of Santa Cruz was a myth to those that didn’t surf. It wasn’t real because people who did not know the path through private locked property and where to start to just see it. Many stories were told of a epic wave that measured up to 50 ft at its peak. Since the access was blocked to the public, most said that the wave was a myth, a ghost. Yes, a movie depicted the legendary break and those who successfully rode it and lived to tell about it. Not until a large group of surfers were given access to the break by foot and boat did this myth become a truth. I haven’t seen it from the beach but it was amazing to see from the chain link hurricane fence that was put up to keep people off the cliffs and onto the beach. I didn’t see a 50ft wave but the sets I witnessed were 15-20ft (triple to five times overhead). The weight of the water and the natural reef bottom 15-20 feet below have killed people that were/were not prepared to surf there. I look at the parallels between surfing and firefighting as they intersect cleanly. I learned to surf in the late 90’s, nothing big, just for fun and exercise. It took YEARS before I could stand up, turn and read the ever changing swells.
Off-shore winds, on-shore winds, storm systems, time of year and water conditions such as undertows were some of the many rules you followed or you would pay a price for attempting to cross mother natures forces. I remember becoming cocky after I began to understand the mechanics of catching a wave. I’ll never forget the near miss as I went over the falls and was pushed into the reef only 8 ft below. Between my long board hitting me in the head and my wet-suit being torn away from my leg, I was under the water for 30-40 seconds. Some would say 30-40 seconds, that’s not very long. I thought so to until I felt the weight and force of thousands if not millions of gallons of water beat the tar out of me.
Once I popped up I noticed that my leash was torn from the board. I used the next smaller wave to push me in. I sat on the beach with a bloody nose and bumps and bruises. It scared me, deeply. A good friend and the person who taught me how to read the water, conditions and how to surf paddled in and sat with me. He made sure I was ok and reminded me that I broke all of the rules we had talked about for the day. That spot we were surfing is well known for rapidly changing conditions that sometimes require getting out of the water. I caught, kind of, the last wave of the day as the people and strangers I was with saw the conditions and called the session off for the day.
We worked together so I caught a bunch of crap from everyone for awhile. He did come and talk to me privately later. He said “Surfing is just like firefighting”, “If you don’t sit and watch the conditions before we surf or while the indicators of rapidly changing water, wind and timing, you will get hurt, or worse”. I thought the parallel hew drew was genius, it made perfect sense. We are visitors in the environment we are put in or go to. He went onto say “You must learn and adapt to the water and wind, know how the sets come in by timing them and leaving if it changes”. I guess my mind was blown but, as I re-gained my spirit to get back into the water, I saw what he was talking about. Just like firefighting sometimes people become over-confident or miss something because they weren’t watching the indicators of there environment.
Like I said before, I have been to the deployment site twice since 2013. Both times and from both directions (top down, bottom up) I sat baffled at the why and the who. Even though it is pumped into the heads of wildland firefighters to conduct AAR’s after each shift that are centered around the “What and not the Who”, I looked at it against standardized teachings, the “Who and not the What.” Both times I had emotions that came on strong to the point I couldn’t be around the people I went with. I walked all over the ridge above, hiked down the middle descending ridge and out to the Helms border. I timed it the second visit without gear and the brush that would’ve been there. I noticed the absolute obstructed view of the north as I made it 1/3 of the way down.
It felt like a confined space the further I hiked and the steepness of the slope going straight down was enough to allow for only one foot of space between me and the mountain. With no gear on and being well rested and hydrated in 98 degree weather at 13:00 hrs, it took 40 minutes without stopping and without something to grab on to. I was not alone the second time and being in uniform the public that was there hiking was stoic, quiet and respectful of the ground. The person I met unintentionally came out of no-where. He was in his 70’s, maybe higher. He just showed up in good shape and with hiking poles, a backpack and a cool hat and sunglasses.
I sat on one of the benches, the west bench closest to JS’s cross. I was hoping to sit alone but this man sat down next to me in silence. It was quiet for a period of time that to this day was not measurable as it felt like time stopped, time was irrelevant. He broke the silence with these words. “How long did you know him?” I looked at him and he was smiling, it gave me the good goosebumps. I replied, “18 years sir”. He kept smiling and said, “You know, he is ok, all of them are.” I was taken back, didn’t know what to say to this man that just showed up out of no-where. “He is glad you came back, it’s good that you did.” I couldn’t help it but for the first time in 6 years at that time I was able to shed a tear. It was relief, He said, “Would you like a water?”, “Sure is hot today.” I replied “Yes, yes sir”, as I didn’t want to be rude. He reached into his backpack and pulled an ice cold sweating bottled water. I was shocked at the temperature of the water as I snuck a peek into his backpack that was empty, no ice, no container. I drank it as we sat there.
He then stood up and began the ascent up the trial to the overlook ridge. “Take care of yourself”, he said. Time started again when I got up strangely. I thanked him for the water and gave him a head start. He moved fast up the trail and I caught him on top at the upper viewing bench. I asked him, “You need a hiking partner back to the parking lot?” “No thank you, I’m fine, I’ll see you around.” I agreed and made my way back. I slowed down and waited, he wasn’t behind me if he was, he was taking his time. About halfway down a large T-cell that formed over Prescott/Scull Valley area pushed in with wind and lightening. I turned up my pace and eventually made it back to my party and the parking lot.
I asked the State attendant if he saw an older gentleman and described him to the state official. “No, you and your party are the only ones that have made the trail hike today, look the lot only has your vehicle.” I was in disbelief and asked him again. The wind came up and the cloud shaded the whole area, we left, I was attempting to understand the last few hours, I couldn’t, I accepted that, Sometimes we can’t explain things, that day was something set into motion for a long time. I knew he didn’t hike the back way in or up the Helms way as the people I was with never saw him, only me at the bench, giving me some space to think. I am not an academic nor do I claim to be a scientist. I will say that I have been gifted the occurrences I can’t explain throughout my life, that one time at the site was one of them.
I am writing this to confirm that people do not need to have multiple years of firefighting to see things how they were or are. Too many parallels in life pace the “Rules” in which nature demands we follow. I have watched so many people deduct there own opinions before and after the first round of ill-timed and un-factual reports were on display for the world. Two hikers saw the danger without formalized fire training and a multitude of civilians see through the void that was purposely placed before all of us.
I do not see the need for truth to be disrespectful or out of line. I see the same spin put on the YHF that has been and is placed upon every fatality fire within my time as a Leader/Firefighter. Accountability has always been an issue to the Agencies that know they have allowed people into positions they may not be ready for. Pride and protection of one’s self worth was clearly present on the day of and the days leading up to the fatalities. Not only did the General Staff have a record of reactive behaviors, so did the crew. I do hold the General Staff and the leadership on the fire responsible for not reading there environment. All of them knew that a fuel type such as the one(s) on the YHF do not fully consume unless one element, the most important element is present, the wind. Generally that fuel type burns very spotty without wind. The weather was observable and noted in multiple places and with multiple people. The lookout talked about it within the last hour before the descent.
BRHS saw the indicators and rapidly changing weather or the lookout would’ve perished too. ANYTIME we have a lookout that can’t see us or the fire we disengage and enter a pre-designated safety zone. If a lookout notifies us that fire behavior is picking up we begin or timed escape route to safety. Not being able to absorb reported and observable changing fire behavior and weather and sounding the alarm early (+30-45 minutes padding to the safety zone) defeats all purposes for a lookout.
As harsh as this may sound, putting a 3rd year firefighter in a seasoned lookout position is not a good idea. Looking at the IRPG a looked is, Trusted, competent, well versed in fire behavior, weather and the ROE’s. A lookout needs an escape route to safety especially on foot. Most of the time the lookout is the Supt. a Captain or squad boss. It may hurt feelings but the lookout position is the hardest position on the crew of any type as they are entrusted sound the alarm with command presence.
There isn’t room for indifference, all must take the alarm and order to the safety zone seriously. A lookout must be able to enunciate and explain what they are seeing in detail, assure the crew has received the order and then safely reach their safety zone. Losing a lookout to geographical reasons is one thing, losing a lookout to extreme fire behavior is quit another. Training is everything, being able to see the main fire or being in contact with someone who can is a must. Human factors, pride, etc, a big part of why or why not BRHS communications to the crew meant something or not. Trusting other crew in the IHC world is a priority. Building those relationships mean life or death. Regardless of the job tittle or position we all need to be able to read the environment based upon the slides we build from fire to fire.
Yes, the actions from adjoining divisions and firefighting resources can directly impact other areas on fires. I have seen backfires and burnouts negatively affect other resources. Communication weren’t adequate to begin with. LCES is an acronym built to stop operations until mitigated safely. Operating without solid comms or without the right frequencies is a recipe for disaster. If any part of LCES isn’t present we stop, confirm, asses and go or no go. Mitigation may take some doing but it’s much better than alternative.
People from all walks of life have observed, studied and investigated the YHF. Some from the information given from “Official reports, videos and sound bytes”. Most citizens see the tragedy and accept the “Official reports” as scripture. People gave money time and effort to the cause and that is a beautiful thing. It is only when the majority of the fire service denounces the findings knowing ROE’s/human factors are clearly present without truthful explanation. It is left to the people, regardless of training to decipher redacted, incomplete information that doesn’t bring closure or lessons learned to anyone. We can draw conclusions based upon factors but knowing 2/3’s of the factual information has been sealed or gagged by proof of FOIA’s is wrong on so many levels.
Most unknown or questionable timelines have been proven through the FOIA’s from Joy. Knowing from a firefighter standpoint the cause and effect’s from actions on different divisions and the things said in the FOIA’s solidifies my thoughts. Yes bad decisions were made all around. The difference between understanding the truthful events from redacted events is knowing how badly not having LCES/ROE’s in place and being able or not able to read changing conditions predicted or observed played a huge role in this fire.
I am glad that you and Joy made it out, I am glad you both could read the signs that a lot of people missed. Being able to work with others known or not, liked or not is one of the key elements to making it home. As more information comes out the “Ah-ha’s” become “WTF.” It is a kick in the face to hear one thing and read quite another. I don’t know if any of this was helpful but, I am re-hashing the facts compared to what we were originally presented. Smoke and mirrors are best left for magic shows, not fatality fires.
DownhillIndirect
DND – Outf**kingstanding MY Friend. The part about the guy talking with you – your visitor – gave me chills.
“2 Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. ” Hebrews 13:2 KJV
Your dialogue on the whole post on everything from fuels, weather, topography, fire behavior, human factors. leadership, and more was remarkable. Thank you and welcome back
RTS,
I learned from the best (insert smiles). That last visit was a blessing. I have a video of the visit and I’m gathering up the bravery to display it to all of you. After I stopped filming my visitor arrived. Thank you for your support, friendship and for allowing the time to open up. Everyone here has and is making a real difference. Gracias Amigo…
DND,
Thank you for the kudos My Friend. So did I and merely passed on the ‘Old School’ traditions. However, I give all the glory to the God of the Bible because He gave me that blessing and allowed me that gift,
As far as those posters here making a real difference, it’s all part of the healing process Talking about it. We must talk about it to avoid internalizing it otherwise the ‘triggers’ remain and those demons can surface at any time.
Instead – it is so important to talk about it, as painful as that may seem at times.
Here is a quote from United Airlines pilot Al Haynes regarding his “ Eight Questions with retired Capt. Al Haynes ” article by Lynn Zerschling of the Courier Lee News Service on Aug 1, 2010
“Haynes has been credited for keeping cool in a crisis and miraculously steering Flight 232 to the airport on July 19, 1989, after the plane lost its hydraulics and No. 2 engine. The DC-10 carrying 296 people cartwheeled in a fiery ball down a runway at the airport and into a cornfield, with 184 passengers and crew surviving. Another 112 died.”
So then, doing the math 72 people survived.
“I give the same speech everywhere. I talk about what happened in Sioux City.
“I tell people it’s about luck, communications, preparation, execution and cooperation. ”
I refuse to believe in luck. How does that “luck” thing work anyway? Do you get, 100, 500, 1,000 “luck” things when you’re born and you just use them up over your lifetime? When you happen to be unlucky and die where the rest of your “luck” things go? Can you buy, sell, and trade your “lucks”?
However, I will accept the other factors as legitimate, beneficial causal factors.
I digress … here is what Captain Haynes said about healing: ” You can’t get over any type of trauma or tragedy without talking about it. I have given over 1,500 talks and it has helped me accept what has happened. Every time I gave a talk in the beginning, it was like therapy. … I tell people to be proud of what you did. You can learn from it. Don’t do it again. ” (all emphasis added above)
( https://wcfcourier.com/news/local/eight-questions-with-retired-capt-al-haynes/article_4e4e899a-9d66-11df-ba54-001cc4c03286.html )
I look forward to your YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy insight. And I look forward to this video you referred to. No idea what you’re talking about there.
RTS,
Interesting post. I agree. Talking about experienced trauma is probably the best way for people to deal with it. I tried for years to talk about my first burnover fire experience and I just couldn’t. I was THAT guy. Then I could talk about it with only a few with symptoms like dry mouth and hands shaking. Then I could share it in training classes with diminishing tremors as time went on. Now after 18 years I can do it pretty well & the hard part is admitting what a dumbass I was. (actually its easy, i was a dumbass) I tell it to educate, admit my failure, verbalize my mindset at the time, and illustrate how fortunate I was to be standing in front of them. I really believe it’s my responsibility to admit my mistake so others can hopefully learn from it. It’s always crushed me that others didn’t get that chance. I never wanted to waste mine but didn’t know how for a while.
It gets better over time & if I hadn’t kept pushing myself to do what was very difficult I would be a wreck to this day. There’s a better life ahead for those that can find the strength. I wish I could reach out to everyone that needed help to do this. All I can do is offer these words of encouragement.
Oh, and you better just leave the math to me. 😀
Math Inclined Woodsman
One more thing. You magnificent bastard! You gave me another nugget for training. Thank You!
Your post led me to research the story of United flight 232. I found this and I have an event coming up that I’m going to incorporate it within. (NWCG would have a stroke if they found out how I customize their classes)
“Crew resource management
The accident has since become a prime example of successful crew resource management.[30][20]
For much of aviation’s history, the captain was considered the final authority, and crews were to respect the captain’s expertise and not question him. This began to change in the 1970s, especially after the Tenerife airport disaster.
Crew Resource Management, while still considering the captain the final authority, instructs crew members to speak up when they detect a problem, and instructs captains to listen to their concerns.
United Airlines instituted a Crew Resource Management class in the early 1980s. The NTSB would later credit this training as valuable toward the success of United 232’s crew in handling their emergency.[1] The FAA made Crew Resource Training mandatory in the aftermath of the accident.”
Thanks for being You!
Woodsman
Thanks DND=quite admirable your abilities. Few could handle surfing like that and I had to learn to swim in a cow tank. So I never could have made the surfing team. Water and heights have always been my weak points in life. Your story has much value–the experiences of life are many and sometimes it is hard to understand.
When I was a youngster at about 15, an old fellow come to our mining shack–I can vividly remember this man. He was perfectly dressed and polished boots with an old pickup that also was perfectly polished and tan in color. We were poor in those days since Dad was putting all he could into his mine prospects. I was the main provider of meat for the family–why I was such a good shot when I was drafted. Ammunition was scarce for us and every shot had to count.
But this gentleman, not a huge man, only a bit taller than my Dad had said he was going prospecting–wanted to know the direction of any Antimony mines or Gold mines in the area. I gave him a description of how to get to an abandoned Antimony mine I knew of. He replied that he had just come back from there. But I looked at his pickup, and it was perfectly polished and not a scratch or blemish on it. I was thinking how is this possible. The brush on that road that had not been used in many years, the wash outs and rocks to pass over, and long distance of road to navigate–there is no possible way you could do it in a two wheel drive pickup and have it looking like it just came off a show room in perfect order.
So I gave him another location of a gold diggings. He said I will go there too. And he looked at a Bible that I had on a table nearby. He said I see you read your Bible some. I said yes. He replied, don’t worry about it much, just keep the principles therein.
There are some things you can not explain in life–they happen but always for a reason and most often to make things right.
My son Mark visited tonight. I had not seen him in a month. His birthday is next month–I gave him some silver to celebrate his life. I lost Ted the oldest son, but Mark is quite different. He is a Registered Nurse and over the 12 years most of it has been as a Trauma Nurse (ER) in the Emergency room. He has seen his share of trauma, people being mangled in car wrecks, faces blown off from suicide attempts or gun battles, and death.d None of it can be nice to see.
I had not seen him in a month and since he brought along a bottle of the best Irish Whiskey–Jameson–the Stout Edition, we toasted life together. He is like his Mom, the commandante. Her dad was Jefe de Migracion en Berrendo,. Chihuahua Mexico. Carlos Johnson was to me like a Napoleon both in size and ego. A bit of good Irish Whiskey is a social lubricant well advised in good situations.
So at times I visit Ted’s grave–so proud of that son–he did the things he wanted to do for the most part. Yet my heart is torn because of his untimely death. But Mark also I am proud of–not because I was so close to him as I was Ted, but because he does such good works and is able to help many despite the horrific scenes he endures. I would rather endure the deep mines I have worked to face those horrible situations, yet I have faced a few.
Life is not all roses. My Dad was a quiet man, my mother was a cotton picker. the last of 9 kids of a widow, a Black among the Baxters and she eloped with my Dad–a banjo picking rounder playing in bars in Texas in the hard days. Yet they passed along a desire and ability to do the right thing and survive in this sometimes crazy world.
So I appreciate very much when I can hear your stories that encourage others and those of Gary, RTS, Woodsman, Norb, Joy, Dr. Ted and the others who win against the odds because they do it right and think before they act, especially when other lives are involved.
Thank you for teaching me that we are not alone in this journey of life and truth.
Charlie,
I admire you my friend. Your story is proof that we are here to help one another. Sometimes we need a little help to see that we are here for a short time and to be good to one another.
You and Joy are wonderful people put in a story that isn’t finished. Those here and gone are smiling knowing that it is ok to allow the truth to be told. I’d venture to say that the families, friends and those close to the fire have had a gifted visit at some point.
Thank you for your support and know that it is reciprocated 100%. I would never go underground unless you were leading the way!
DownhillIndirect
DND, you are a man I would never disrespect. You walk a line many wish they had the fortitude to follow. Your input and evaluations I have read are to the point and exact. Your methods will certainly save lives and that is the most important thing. Truth is so valuable, yet seemingly so evasive as we see at Yarnell concerning the deaths of the young wild land fire fighters. Thanks for being there for them–though their voice is silent, you speak for them–their wish–your answer–the truth.
RTS said Sonny, you would make a good hot shot. I do appreciate the comment and too bad I am already pretty much shot–real and by the age symptoms and if you throw in a lot of toxic retardant exposure–well I ought to break down and cry.
I think to be a Hot Shot I might have done well. But what is scary would be to have to manage a crew of men knowing that my decisions would involve the life and death situations responsible for a crew of 20 men. Whew, what responsibility–something that I would want to be held up to very close scrutiny not only about the way I do things personally, but the way my peers in that business saw me and the importance that had seen me for a long time preforming regarding safety issues and my willingness to be strict in putting those before the risking of lives–especially when it came to such actions of me thinking a crew with Pulaskis could in anyway get in front of a mega fire and think the glory would benefit us.
I have to admire men who would take such responsibility since I understand it. I knew when I managed a half way house there was a responsibility to step into people’s lives–drug addiction and alcoholism are so often life or death situations, although you do not have the same danger of putting these people on a fire line where they might be burned to death. Still I would know that if they returned to there addiction live could very easily end for them or even others associated with them. I have literally pulled a double barrel shotgun out a mans mouth before he could use it after he had returned to his addiction. I had one black man return to his addiction and force his little girl of 9 to take rat poison and he himself take it with both dying in the most excruciating manner. I had often felt I failed that man –he was a black man that had come to me for help, yet somehow I was not there to prevent.
Sometimes I would take off on my own time to hunt up individuals that had returned to the streets and their wine bottles. One individual, his mother was a whore in a Mexican Whore house, I would try several times to bring back into the program until I saw him one day lying on his death bed with tubes out of his body and a swollen liver that made him look pregnant–with only a few days to live from cirrhosis It makes me sad even today to look back on those things where I might have done more.
So I know the heavy responsibility you bosses have when you take on a job where those you manage depend upon your expertise and caring. Most of them are like Donut–without a clue and it is only your example and good decisions to keep them alive. So, yes I do believe in repetition of the good things and practices that are proven to work involving the safety and lives of the wild land wild fire worker.
.
I don’t think RTS will mind me sharing something he wrote to me in an email from yesterday.
“DND made an amazing post tonight replying to Sonny”
So I just read it myself, “DND – Outf**kingstanding MY Friend. The part about the guy talking with you – your visitor – gave me chills.”
I second the motion. 🙏🏻
Gary,
Thank you. Sometimes I sit down and type hoping what I write will help. As I do I am flooded with the past as it collides with the here and now. I hope to share more and help others navigate the rough seas our boat is in. Thank you again.
DownhillIndirect
🙏🏻
Downhillndirect,
Thank you for sharing that story of your visit to the site. It reminded me of a favorite song of mine from years ago. I offer it to you as a gift & in honor of your friend, whom I can’t help but believe a part of him and your friendship lives on through you.
https://youtu.be/VgRXdozljRs
Woodsman
Woodsman,
I believe we are all cut from the same cloth here. Someday I would like to meet all of you. This planet is a spec and we are closer and share more things than we know. I loved the song. It reminded me of a wicked wrestling match I had with a few good friends that are/were Marines. I won 1 match and then took a good A$$ wuppin on the second. I bet you can’t guess who beat me…lol.
If it weren’t for you and others on IM I would’ve stayed back in the crowd, thank you for inspiring me to write. Stay the course and know you are doing a great job, there, here and now.
DownhillIndirect
No broken record there DND. I keep wanting to write DNA–you have a good one.
My brain is slow compared to many here. I am down to using only about 7%–most are capable of operating off 10%–but age and an ounce of lead in my chest area gives me excuse–you have none–keep up the repetition–I need and enjoy it.
Charlie,
I don’t believe your brain is slow for one moment my friend. You are sharp as a tac and have done what many could or ever would do.
I appreciate your commitment to the subjects that we need to discuss. I guess I’d better get my headlamp and go mining with you sometime, I trust your skills and look forward to the campfire and beans, i’ll bring the beans….
DownhillIndirect
Someone who is known as, “The Lone Survivor” saying that “the rules are hillbilly” is beyond ironic…way beyond.
Gary,
Speaking of “Lone Survivor”, Markus Lattrel did an amazing job explaining everything, including the Muff-ups he and his fellow seals executed during “Operation Red Wings”. Truth=Integrity=lessons learned= closure. Top secret or not it all came out for all Leaders to grow from, military or not.
DownhillIndirect
I did see the movie, but that probably (which is probably an understatement) wasn’t very accurate? I will do some research. I kinda wish the Yarnell Hill Fire Lone Survivor would follow the example of the original Loan Survivor, which is another understatement and tell us about the Muff ups on the fire. I think everyone knows you can’t kill (almost) an entire hotshot crew for the first time in history and honestly reach the conclusions the SAIT did in their SAIR?
actually gary- that product called the sair was done by how they were trained so take it up with the ones placing the instructor material out—
dont pick on the sait- they did their job…
yet looking forward to the Caples RX burn aftermath
will run much different than YHF
Dr. Ted and I are only a few days apart in age. I was in Helena living out of my Jeep Wagooneer in the Wal Mart Parking Lot for several months before my first heart attack. When Ted learned I was there he told me he wished he knew because he would have been glad to have me along to visit the death site of the men that died near Wolf Creek and his investigative work concerning the Mann Gulch coverup. We at least had a visit together there and he insisted on paying the bill at a good meal at one of the restaurants near Helena. Ted will always have a good place in my heart and his wife is the classy lady that anyone can appreciate. (I did make the trip to the death site of those men on my own after his visit). They always are welcome here and there is plenty of agate and other stones here he can gather. His hobby is rock hounding, mine is looking for meteorites. You are right, no better people are to be found.
Regarding this email…
———————————————————————————
From: Jacobsen,Mary
To: Fousek Melissa
Nunez Branden
Date: 4/5/2016 10:23:52 AM
Subject: FW: Wildfire Expert Alleges Arizona Forestry Division Covering UpYarnell Hill Tragedy
Interesting!
Sounds like Putnam is a self-professed Fire Investigator of the Yarnell Fire.
Also, his sources aren’t being revealed so that’s convenient for credibility reasons.
Could it be as simple as someone made a mistake and now we have to live with the consequences?
Just my two cents . . .
Mary M Jacobsen
Human Resources Director
201 S. Cortez Street | Prescott, AZ 86303
Ph: 928-777-1216 | Fax: 928-777-1213
[email protected]
————————————————————————————-
Yes, Ms. Jacobsen.
Sometimes it IS “that simple”.
Tagging off Wtkkt and posting another’s statement from Friday, January 17, 2020 7:58 PM:
Biggest mistake of all ( that you now have to live with )? … possibly participating in a coverup.
To that person that emailed me – I have said for years and I even tried to reach my old FBI friend from college days but his family says he has been so unreachable since he joined the FBI so if I ever ran into him because I do trust that guy back in the day … I would have him legally help me with some of my tools and force this into action
Either way with her roots and living so near to Dr Ted Putnam and the Missoula Smokejumper Visitor Center, Missoula, MT. – and with his elite publicized background I am not buying that a lady who use to live near the Smokejumper base did not know WHO Dr. Ted Putnam was and still is-
I would challenge her on that statement that she had no fore knowledge of Dr Ted Putnam and as a director of Human Resources and local Volunteer Manager knows the PRR system and doing avid Background Checks and possibly placed out the comment using orchestrated calculations.
I mean, if all she does is run background checks for a living – wouldn’t you THINK she would have on Dr Ted Putnam before typing that into something called an email that then becomes public records ????
I am not 100% on buying she did not now who Dr. Ted Putnam is or his position and his stance towards YHF –
To me, she sounds like one of those who live on top of the hill in a mansion style house who feels she is in power ‘who will be hired or who will not’ for the ‘Prescott Way’ and I really am greatly disappointed that with her position and power and role that she did not run a check first before placing that into public records.
Dr. Ted Putnam never proposed any ties to Yarnell because he is still working on Mann Gulch- he has heard all our accounts even Musser and Abel and Hall and DND and so many more because we know he has integrity and respects us all as individuals and has never said take a side like others have done to him.
For the record Mrs Jacobsen – the article you spoke about – let me tell you how that happened … Sonny and I was at the store buying tracfone minutes to take a call from John N MacLean years ago and we told the guy who rang up our card why we were buying the card always in hope to get more fire data. The man was part time employee and he was there for the YHF aftermath and to this day CNN and no media outlet knows the very photo of the flags draped over the men was his photo and he was never given courtesy credit for such in any media areas nor interviewed for the Investigation Process. I would say more but I will stop there but this man has not been treated fair either. Good man.
We, the hikers, wanted Dr Ted Putnam and JD to meet this man because he said MUCH MORE than that photo but he had “all of a sudden” jury duty the date we spoke about meeting as we all sat in the parking lot… so JD and Dr Ted and us were in the parking lot and so Ted said he would email JD some data but never did Dr. Ted “think” the data was going to roll into an article kinda focusing on him.
… neither the hikers or Dr. Ted knew it was an article to be out until it was out and we all were like “wow” – it was out and knowing Dr. Ted I would feel safe to say if the article helped to promote a better understanding of the YHF fire than it is what it is- We cannot undo what is done. Just like I said yesterday, we all typically lack control about what others say about us in online comments and on social media and even articles. I am sure JD placed it out because that is investigative journalism and we believe he knows the players like us so he had to do what he had to do to shake it up-
God Bless JD-
I told you if the first hand people did not come out – I would release records I gathered for almost 7 years and begin to show more tools.
Please remember that there are certain public figures who worked hard to be where they are today – a lot of people support them – let us continue to show them the same respect when you read the records.
I would hope all of us would refrain from anything but showing your take-away from this all. It has been very hard for all of us. I always will support Wildfire Today and IAWF and https://www.scaffw.org/ and California Interagency Wildland Fire Risk Management … an AHFE and AMS … they are very good areas to learn about Wildland Firefighting and they have helped me gain an education.
Please share as you will … let the world know when reading this document that Dr Ted Putnam was in JD’s article … and this was what Human Resources stated on the Nation’s Top Fire Fatality Expert who has been working on the Mann Gulch not YHF.
All the folks who thought “carry on” or “carry the torch” meant having more babies, going on more trips, advancing in the careers as truth sayers were faded out of theirs, taking gobs of funds, FOIA and PRR folks endured so much headaches in all my requests, and the list goes on … those people now know this would be the ideal year for the 20th man of the 20 man crew come out and confirm to the GMHS families and loved ones and friends- was he on a dozer? was he at the ranch house rest. eating a burger? Tell us the facts by signing my release paper and coming to show his REAL TIME story that he does not have to speak but we just analyze his exact spots that day… I think it is time.
We gave so many the time to come out but what was the dice number on the old GMHS logo- SEVEN … what better time than SEVEN years later!
Prayers for more…
Let us fix what was said about Dr Ted Putnam on IM!
The previous comment is from Joy –I forgot to put a header to inform an Email message I received from Joy..
🙄 duh
Did it even sound like you?
🙃
Right, I don’t even with 7 minutes. But I do understand–you live there, I live in another world here. And there is a time to do things–we may not agree on the time, but the miracle of revelation puts the lies to exposure.
If that gal knew a fourth of what Dr. Putnam knows about life, investigating wild fire deaths she would stand in awe instead of being the big mouth making herself into an idiot with need so brain training. But at least we need a few clowns to smile about. She is funny if you look at it right–stupid too. Three stooges program is looking for a few good ladies for re runs.
That comment was meant to post under the Holly declarations. But you knew that, some new visitor might not.
Joy, don’t bother there–untruths eat out the souls of those in games. The gods and demons love these people that play the games. Truth is not forgiving–it eats away their lives until they either change or die in the final of things. They maybe are good candidates for soul catchers 2025. Those of low moral standards are the best candidates for the soul catchers.
Well, Sonny.
Our beginnings was about numismatics, guns /ballistic sharing, religion, hiking then went into a true relations of pioneering and getting to know Nature then YHF changed us both.
When the media year after year kept failing all affected by the YHF placing the redundant same folks out there – never sharing the real stories –
The only journalist who has given 100% Freedom of Speech is John Dougherty.
Yet enough of certain folks did their best to hang here on IM while behind the scenes they tell Willis they are not affiliated to JD or JD’s site just an external voice for Willis.
I think it was in 1984 when John worked for the Phoenix Gazette then on to Phoenix New Times maybe he was tied to the Zip too ??? Go look on your LinkedIN – I cannot view the page because I never sign up to places online. The point is he has been around a long time for journalism.
Yet appx ten years ago JD filed with the Federal Elections Commission as a first step to run in the Democratic primary for a U.S. Senate seat. When he did he said to the Phoenix New Times: “This will be a great exercise in the regular folks standing up and saying, ‘Enough of this bullshit,'” Dougherty says.
His site for almost seven years has given not just first hand folks to the YHF but he gave the world a continued opportunity to share what they think. I know one common thread his site has done was bring people closer together.
We will always have naysayers. It’s okay. That’s life.
But what the naysayers did not realize … even in my own disbeliefs so early on with Bob Powers and RTS is that those two men did not dictate what I am going to have happen in 2020 – that is just simply said a leap of Faith
Thank you Bob Powers and RTS. For years I would hear frustrations that IM and the blog offers just enough evidence but then so did Deborah’s podcast. I am all willing to share how to piece this all with the right abled people yet again all the media could have helped us all since even Authority areas yet they fail us all with the same good feel stories —-
Please Father soften the hearts not just for the ones the last 18 minutes but for the media as well and certain people of Authority. I forgive all of you. Only way to the truth is to follow the evidence not the built in ill minded perceptions that happened to too many of us here.
20+ S E P A R A T E individuals saw a Shrine area burning out video July 2013 even some of the GMHS loved ones have stated such that they remember such video yet no Authority has forced YOUTUBE to look in the archival blueprint of their site. Why? How come?
Well, I could say just let the others figure it out – but what people do not understand the evidence of my Faith is more overwhelming…
I BELIEVE with resistance to receiving so not yet have fully become …. but I have no idea what I am doing yet I will not ignore the evidence about you, about the YHF, and other fires ( cough cough – Caples RX burn in Jay Kurth’s professional backyard ) —-I will keep putting Jay’s name in any area I am so when you GTS his name there I am 😉 You should never be able to say well I was not involved or there so I am okay. It was in your own professional backyard and what happened in the Sierra mountains will affect millions dropping that slurry drop in due time…take Yarnell as an example.
I have hope, Woodsman and I know one would think what I want is bigger than than the resurrection –
These folks who allowed people to get played and you put innocent people in harms way because of your ill intent behaviors- I ask God to soften your hearts.
The media reporting on YHF – they truly missed the T R U T H and they can apologize and say they didn’t see it but I say back you did not want to see it.
In His Time and His Ways- God keeps his promises.
I promise to keep praying for you Matt and others … Most the men who are coming forward then holding back …their own fathers were “complicated”, lack of expression of love, cold, faced physical or emotional abuse, died, or abandoned them either emotionally or physically or both but always remember you do have a Heavenly Father … He can put a love in your heart like no other.
Sonny and I have no motive or agenda but watch the ones who talk about us ugly – maybe they do and pray for them.
We just want the chips to fall where they may – get to the core account.
Like JD said 10 years ago when running for Senate … is your mind made up already or are you thinking when is enough evidence – enough evidence for the RIGHT Authority to help fix this once and for all
“Listen” more in 2020 – I plan to do that.
Let those fragments produce a reliable concrete new investigation and be DONE with SAIT SAIRS –
I tried to learn the tools and product but they so far have refused me entry – I do not get it – I want transparency and I have the tools to show how but you have to let me in to learn them.
Joy,
Your staying focused on the evidence about YH Fire alleged (‘it was not an investigation, it was a learning review’) “Investigator” Jay Kurth and other fires, namely the Lake Tahoe, CA area escaped USFS Caples RX burn in his professional backyard is a good thing. Keep putting Jay’s name out there so when that GTS searches will have you in there too.
And for those that are unfamiliar with the October 2019 Caples RX Burn or want a refresher, here is a Wildfire Today archive link on the subject.
( https://wildfiretoday.com/tag/caples-fire/ )
It was initially planned as a small hand-pile burn project in a major watershed where high level politicians told the USFS to take their time since it was planned to be accomplished over several years. However, those in charge apparently ignored, discounted, refused to believe, follow, or whatever it was … Fire Order No. 1 – Keep informed on fire weather conditions and forecasts.
That being said, the local NOAA NWS Office(s) issued Red Flag Warning(s) – and most importantly – they totally blew off the NWS forecast COLD FRONTS that were to follow.
” The Predictive Services Center clearly notified the USFS ENF Caples RX Burn personnel well in advance of the approaching strong winds and cold fronts
Strong winds AND cold fronts! Cold fronts are the weather phenomenon most responsible for escaped fires and RX burns and large and erratic fires growth.
There is so much more to delve into on this example of malfeasance, and it’s pretty likely that our tax dollars will be well spent as one of our Federal alphabet Agencies will do just that.
I know a bit more on it … yet prefer to see how they 🐿 squirrel around on this one … will they hide their nuts 🥜 or finally wear a pair and tell the truth.
Let the Investigators come my way … hopefully it’s a FBI special agent so I can show the other tools for Yarnell too … if it is some CRP team …. fughitaboutit.
Yes, Joy, I would compare John Daugherty with Gary Webb–the Journalist that exposed the Iran Contra Affair. You don’t perhaps remember when Reagan was screaming against drugs while the CIA under his auspices was streaming drugs into this country in huge loads. Gary Webb took them to task and eventually because of so many citizen protests from Webb’s investigation–Congress held an investigation.
The drug war thing has been an ongoing Political thing–even Trump is on the band wagon. But it takes honest reporters to expose these clunks doing their dirty work.
Needless to say Gary Webb took much flack from the main media–New York Times, CBS, NBC and so forth. Webb lost his job and was black balled by the main press–no one would hire him again for revealing the truth.
These days if you do not play the corporation game your life may be in danger. And in the case of Gary Webb he died of suicide under suspicious conditions.
Reagan did another thing–he allowed mergers of corporations to own media. They are not independent entities set aside for the people only. Their owner such as Disney, Viacom, and so forth and their evolvement onto the stock market make them subject to their masters–the owners and slaves to the money market. For instance it was well known that Nike was using slave tactics and paying their foreign workers an average of 16 cents an hour. At the same time their income was 780 billion dollars. The exposure came by a CBS lady journalist who was subsequently demoded causing her to have to leave. CBS went on to wear Nike Jackets at the Olympics while Nike made million dollar contributions to the Olympics. You see the main media is bought and paid for–they are not representative of the people.
In this life John Daugherty is often portrayed as a nemesis by other sites–the truth bearers–and if Jesus could prove one thing–will always be crucified in one way or another. But he allows the free flow of information and opinions-the true way of a democratic media. It is when, as we definitely saw at Yarnell, information is sanctured, ideas and opinions relegated as unimportant, and facts omitted, redacted and mummed that we see that tyranny, lies, deceit begin to eat at the fabric of what is right and good.
I saw where the Nuclear Physicist, Stanton Friedman, wanted to obtain FOIA documents about declassified documents about UFO sightings that the CIA have. It took him 8 years to get them and when he talks he holds them up to an audience to get a laugh–they are 90% redacted. The FS likes that example.
If people do not get the information then how can they know the truth?
Friedman says here are 4 main tactics used to hide information:
(1) If the public does not know, don’t tell them.
(2) Don’t bother them with the facts, their mind is already made up.
(3) Do research by proclamation.
(4) If you can’t prove your proclamation, attack the people.
We did see all four ruses used during the Yarnell investigation. It was not an investigation, it was a Proclamantion. So it is natural that John and the IM site would be attacked.
We have devolved into a Corpocracy and those Coporate interstest are global interests of a few elite. Their money has bought even the press–with only a few exceptions. IM leads the way for a democratic media.
I should review–there were a few–portraying JD as a nemisis= what happened to Jesus–the truth will bring on the naysayers and crucifiers. sanctions–and a few other mistakes I am certain there are. Hopefully the ideas are sound.
The House of Hapsburg got famous for some errors–they had was was called the Hapsburg jaw–caused by inbreeding within their castle confines and unwillingness to breed outside their royalty. No they were Austrian, not the English Crown–The English Crown keeps the inbreeding down some by allowing an occasional outsider in. Diana would be an example–their blood line comes down from the reptilian hybrids–very cunning types. Poor Diana learned that a bit late.
I truly do not think the first hand people get ALL the hardwork the FOIA and PRR folks have done for me over the years – I do think if and when the whole story is out they may sue you for putting them through all this because had you all came out sooner then that would have saved them so much grief.
Just saying.
You can not fix stupid Joy–maybe it is worth the try though.
Last I heard if you DID fix stupid it was illegal.
Also trying to fix someone who does that Thorazine shuffle is also illegal.
I always wondered is it still illegal when they self destruct as I am seeing nowadays…
One nurse said if you can’t fix stupid Sonny than sedate them.
Another nurse said you may not be able to fix stupid but go to Facebook and see how many are glued to that bogus world. Now that’s stupid.
Not even your gorilla 🦍 duct tape could fix it and it fixes a lot.
All courtesy of doing the RTS GTS …
“Light travels faster than sound. This is why some people appear bright until you hear them speak.”
– Alan Dundes
Ephesians 5:13, NIV: “But everything exposed by the light becomes visible–and everything that is illuminated becomes a light.”
Ephesians 5:13, ESV: “But when anything is exposed by the light, it becomes visible,”
Ephesians 5:13, KJV: “But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.”
Ephesians 5:13, NASB: “But all things become visible when they are exposed by the light, for everything that becomes visible is light.”
Ephesians 5:13, NLT: “But their evil intentions will be exposed when the light shines on them,”
Ephesians 5:13, CSB: “Everything exposed by the light is made visible,”
That says it better … none of IM is used for ill intent yet it sure has had hidden dark areas exposed by the light 🤗
Gorilla tape over the mouth might fix it. Remember that guy on Americas got Talent? He got rich keep his mouth taped shut.
REPOSTING – With permission, posting this for our long-lost friend Downhillndirect (DND) who has been plagued for several days by the “awaiting moderation” monster. So saith DND by text: “It’s the one I sent you and if you thought it was good then I am happy with it being sent I appreciate it.”
Joy,
There are no coincidences in life….RTS and I both agreed to that after we re-connected in July of 2018. I held onto more anger, sorrow and pain than anyone should’ve until I met GS in one of the most beautiful towns in Arizona. I have always loved the Mogollon Rim and the features in each town it runs through. I remember working on a few ranches as a young man in Skull Valley, Williamson Valley and one near Yarnell. I was never a real Cowboy, nor did I rodeo or work extensively with cattle like some of my buddies did their whole lives. I did however get the opportunity to really see parts of Arizona that most will never see. Living there provided a healing force that I can’t explain but, I know that you, RTS and allot of friends and family would agree it is a special place. I met RTS in 1996 on the “Three Peaks Fire” just east of Roosevelt lake. I had the great opportunity to work for three of some of the best Leaders the IHC world has ever produced. They asked RTS to sit with us and share his amazing fire behavior knowledge with all of us. He went into great detail and had everyone’s attention as he took us through a few fires he and his crew were on that year and in 1995. He was kind, sharp and spoke with strong Leadership presence. That quality sadly has been watered down to the point that people are afraid to speak up strongly on fires as the HR tent is ready to pounce on anyone with tender scruples. Being in-charge and Leading is the trait that has been almost taken away from the fire service in some places. Group think and fearing that someone may not take decisive, sharp and direct orders has injured some of the culture of “Old School”. The “Old School” I speak of is exactly this, Strong Leadership, morals, values, dedication, TRUTH. It is also Followship, leading up the right way and basing all of your decisions on a simple formula.
The formula that has kept so many safe and free from injury, near miss or death is this. Take L.C.E.S. add the 10 standard fire orders (not suggestions) and observe the 18 Watch-outs form as the day or night progresses. Yes the 18’s will pop up on every fire. As they do or as you apply risk/hazard analysis the indicators that show each firefighter what could or will happen next will guide us through an incident safely. I applied this to any type of emergency call we were on. Being a sound and strong Leader means that you are a student of fire. You must immerse yourself in all aspects of the job you are being tasked to do. Knowing your people and their strengths, or weaknesses makes your team strong. Setting realistic goals and trigger-points and STICKING TO THEM is a huge part of LEADERSHIP.
Knowing when to say “No” and doing nothing is doing something. Sitting in a true safety zone until conditions change to realistically re-engage is smart firefighting. Denying an assignment because it violates the ROE’s is responsible leadership. Attempting to safely mitigate hazards utilizing the ROE’s is a good thing as long as you are prepared for the possibility of extreme fire behavior. Depending on aircraft that can be quickly taken away for a new start that threatens structures for example is bad business. If we truly look back at the fires that killed firefighters it will lead you to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines. On an initial attack fire or on a campaign fire not adhering to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines is madness. Allowing the “Moment” or other visual factors to blind you from thorough scouting and safe plans execution has led so many to devastation.
What I just said was a gift given to me and to many others. Some would say that there are too many “Rules” to memorize and that fatality fires “Just happen”. It is not luck that a lot of firefighters go unharmed and retire knowing they did their best to Lead and follow. Why would we lower the bar because some say there are too many rules to memorize? Why would anyone go pubic on forums or on heavily visited websites and say that we can not avoid firefighter fatalities? I look at Mr. RTS and Mr. Gary Olson and know they applied sound judgement based upon their assessments based upon tangible and realistic ROE’s. Long careers leading firefighters, assuring that their people had the best training, opportunities and safety each day. There is a huge difference between a Leader and a supervisor. A leader assumes all responsibility and will never ask or put their people in known harms way or ask them to do something they wouldn’t do. A supervisor knows only the position and not the dedication it requires to keep their firefighters safe. A leader will draw a line between themselves and their firefighters. A leaders voice is heard, taken seriously and is respected for their actions, not words. As I move onto another chapter in my Firefighting career I pray for the new firefighters that only know what they are told. I hope that they are expected to learn the ROE’s, stick to them and become students of fire. There isn’t room for anything less in my opinion.
Accountability is a 14 letter word that eludes so many. I pray that the fire service in general has an uprising of true Leadership and the culture of “the middle of the fence” is dismantled. OK, enough on the equation.
Joy I am so blessed to have gotten to be a part of your life, however small or big it has been, you and RTS have provided a conduit for healing. For years I sat wondering why the truth wasn’t being made publicly known about the loss of the men. I wondered why after the SKM Fire, true subject matter experts like Mr. Putnam were being excluded from exposing the truth so that we could truly make a shift in finite safety. I do not consider authors or magicians to be the final word on fatality fires or firefighting. I do believe that if you have a position of power that allows the truth to be told, tell the truth. Diverting from it loads the revolver for the next generation to fail Allowing people to duck accountability at all levels has created a very destructive atmosphere. It is no secret that on all of the fatality fires during my two and a half decades had individuals at all levels that dodged accountability.
I believe that you and the many co-authors of your/their work will bring truth to light. I am not surprised to read the factual information that you have provided after years of hard work. I know your love for the men that passed away on June 30th 2013. I know that God gave you a gift that has finally helped expose the reality of bad choices. It is there for any firefighter with a pulse to see that the ROE’s were violated on all counts. There is a giant gap between structural firefighting and Wildland firefighting. Doing both without a solid foundation in both is a recipe for disaster. Pride is a double edged sword. Being proud of the excellent job one may have done is good. Allowing Pride to drive a decision is deadly. We lose more fires than we catch, that is more than OK. Weather is a variable we will never control, accepting that is OK too. We can control how we employ tactics based upon the topographical arena we are presented with. The same goes with how we use fire, do structure protection and time of day chosen to attack a fire.
I was on the “Old Fire” and the “Grand Prix” fire years ago. we lost thousands of homes because we couldn’t safely engage. It was a hard pill to swallow but in the end we saved more homes and lives, including the firefighters on both incidents. There isn’t a home including my own worth one human beings life. It is hard to deny or to disengage from homes that aren’t savable. I have shed tears and tossed chunks over the loss of homes we were asked to protect. Not one SGS has belittled me or our strike teams for making safe choices. It is hard to not be a moth to a flame but assessing hazards is our responsibility. Having a solid foundation of Wildland firefighting in the urban interface in multiple fuels types is a must. Envisioning the worst case scenario at all times is our responsibility.
Not having a plan for when the “Shit hits the fan” is insanity. Having a true escape route(s) to safety that are timed for the slowest person or apparatus based upon the worst thing that could occur is one of the many reasons we lose firefighters. Early on after YHF, I took the information presented and weighed the ROE’s against the end event that occurred. just like you I was blasted for talking about the events that led to the loss of life and friends. I have no doubt and share the same opinion as DW in regards to the recorded frequencies and how people were or were not interviewed. If we look at the actions of our fellow comrades from a ROE standpoint, LCES and the Downhill Indirect guidelines were enough to stop the descent. The flank of fire shown in the Mackenzie video would be enough for me personally to asses all actions on the worst case scenario. I have never felt like a piece of “Shit” for sitting in the cold black during the “Prime time” for active and extreme fire behavior.
After working in the heat all day and as the fire transitioned into a very active backing flank fire (with T-cells) in the immediate area of influence, the men were tired, most likely low on water and energy. Blood sugars were most likely low affecting the decisions of many people on the entire fire. The IC and both OPS chiefs have a responsibility to be the ones to call a time out early. When trigger points hit, expected or not the Command presence must be there to order all of the firefighters to disengage and stand by in their safety zones. I get that I am quarterbacking this. But, I can’t count the times where my leaders have called time out regardless of the values at risk and we sat safely in a good safety zone. There is a huge difference between a Safety Zone and a Deployment Zone, I will not discuss this as we know how it ended.
Joy, you hike, you also go to school to learn as much as you can about firefighting in the Wildland. You and Sonny saw everything from a first hand account and as adults that know your mountains I know what you saw struck you as insane. I agree with you both and if I was an IC, OPS or a DIVS on a fire you saw in an area you knew well I would’ve picked your brain on everything. Heck, our ROE’s tell us to talk to the locals for intel, roads, two tracks and the weather we can expect. Being dismissed ultimately set a pace that put the entire fire behind the power curve. You and other locals were denied the opportunity to help, look at day one and so on.
I appreciate you and I am ashamed that you, RTS and so many have been treated like crap for so long. You both are not alone as you are very aware the shift in perception and truth. Your hard work and dedication to truly honor the fallen is Leadership. It is not disrespectful to replay what occurred or to demand all of the documentation as a student of fire or as a tax payer. Your gift has put you closer to what is real and what was presented. If I were to fall from a LODD I would want all of the information to be made clear for all to see so that my fellow firefighters could learn and grow as leaders. I know of one man that perished that lived by the same code.
It is a shame to have asked honest and direct questions to one of the people tasked to honestly report the findings of YHF and to be banished for it. Tugging on the tail of the snake sometimes means a bite but, I am only stronger for it. I have never been a yes person but my firefighters respect me as do many in the country. I learned a long time ago that there isn’t room for indifference or middle of the road thinking in our profession. You can be nice and still keep your people safe. There is a time to be a dick but always following up with a solution. When I say Dick I mean holding the ground for safety, remembering the ones the died and vowing to be the voice of reason when things go south. Things can go south as long as you are prepared for it.
You are my Angel too showing me wisdom, care and integrity. I owe you and RTS so much for listening and helping me and my own through things I thought were impossible. I am proud of you for your work, for your drive and for your views in life. I am grateful for you and RTS demanding that change occurs. This forum as well as YHFR are changing even the most closed minds. JD allowing a place for change and truth to occur and all of the highly skilled and intelligent contributors here and on YHFR are changing the world. Time can heal wounds once the truth is told.
I am grateful and, with an open heart and I look to the near future for the next chapter in life. I may be a civilian now but with that brings the promise of retribution and accountability for those that continue to make terrible decisions as civil servants with public trust I will expound in a week or so. Thank you Joy, RTS and to all of you here, you all have made a huge difference that will change the world of firefighting and the truth.
Downhillndirect
Posted on behalf of Downhillndirect (DND) with his permission at 5:01 PM on January 17, 2020
Downhillndirect,
There’s so many good things in that post I don’t even know where to start. From all I’ve learned Steed was smarter than that, wouldn’t do it, resisted doing it more than once but still did it. That’s 1 of many, many details that for me that have simply not added up. I’m sorry for your loss. I can’t think of any better way to honor your friend and the crew than by identifying the whole truth and passing it on for real learning.
Peace,
Woodsman
Amen 👍👋🙏
I picked the emoticons from Gary’s storage area 😉
Gary has many…see:
🤨😎😏🥴🤢🤮🤖👊🏼👩🏼🦰👨🏻🚒👮🏼♂️🦸🏼♂️🎅🏼🤰🏼🙅🏼♀️🙋🏼♀️🦁🦄🦋🌲🐾🌙💥❄️🍌🥔🥩🦴🍔🍟🍕🌭🌮🍯🥂🍾🥃🍷🍸🍺🧂🎱🥊🤼♀️🏋🏼♂️🤼♂️🧗🏼♂️🤹🏼♂️🎬🎼🎹🎲🧩🎰🚒🏜🏕🌠
I have no clue how a unicorn and butterfly made it there but I peaked … it’s there 😂
Thank you for your comment DND.
It has been a true honor to be a part in your life and seen what has been shown.
You came at one of the many times I was ready to say let Holly and Alan and John carry this forward but when I began to read the records it was like oh my…I would be accountable one day if I walked away to let that happen.
I always found it odd how one always acted to rise above with public glorifying statement that would make a person go RIGHT ON … while behind the scenes the person writes so off …. that is why I am releasing and it is releasing to do it … the burden is now all ours watching …
😳
Woodsman,
Thank you, I meant to add you to the list of leaders I know are/were all about truth and training. I plan on talking about a important Dozer line ride Jess and most of the crew took on the Doce a few days into it. Most book(s) and authors didn’t come close to the way close call that occurred on their first shift. It wasn’t all “whao bro, close call, yeah…wohoo”. It was more like. “Holy shit”, how did two of my guys almost die in a brush field that was pseudo impenetrable”. That first shift shook people up, as it should. Lighting on the way in was a mistake as noted by those that saw it or heard it. Lighting on the way in without an escape route and missing the extreme fire behavior picking up, well I can only say, “Where was the firing boss”? Did they have one? It’s a qualification that is required on all Backfires and smartly used on larger scale burnouts. Did they have one, I do not know, my guess is no looking at the years in service.
As we all know having collateral duties on a fire, regardless of status is not only a bad idea but takes away from lookout roles, etc. I’d say that Jess was a FIRB after years of Federal IHC time and as a Captain. He was the CRWB on the DOCE and Eric was a TFLD/DIVS? The point, having collateral duties on any fire is not kosher but has happened time after time. It is dangerous to be say a STL and the holding boss on a Backfire for example.. Two jobs that can’t be done at the same time, especially on a fire with RROS. Pulling back to watch the crew as the crew boss was a great decision by Jess.
The only mistake was to allow two lighters to go interior that were/or were not trusted to light the right patterns and observe the the fire behavior, close call, averted less than 14 days before YH.
The dozer line ride to the top of their division on the Doce revealed the distaste for public ass chewing’s and the tactics employed each day. I said most of the crew took the ride until they were scorned for taking the ride and not being tough Hotshots by the TFL. A good friend was a single resource on Doce and drove the guys up the dozer line. They told me that Jess was super bummed and embarrassed for the public treatment, he was one of the last to be shuttled I was told. The fact that he tried to do the right thing to expedite the mission tells me an internal wedge was and had been growing. On multiple occasions it was reported that Jess employed smart tactics that were over-ridden. I can understand what led to the ultimate disaster but, I have never been in that position he was in on multiple occasions, having to be the buffer frequently. It is easy to see why the men felt at ease with him with his past Federal IHC time, more slides, more fire. On the other hand I am convinced that the real and perceived Esprit de corps coupled with the real stress endured to “Do all” clouded and forced the last move. Like I said in my last few posts, people in positions of higher caliber (I.C.(s), OPS and DIVS) that were proven to not have the slides or foundations in WLF mixed in WUI put everyone behind every curve possible.
Looking at the FOIA’s and knowing 2/3’s of the experience the General Staff had or did not have steer thought into truth. More and more people are now wanting involvement now as the truth is being provided. I am a big fan of training and of getting experience but just because I have worked around Doctors doesn’t make me one. From the second day of fire behavior and the inaction’s of many, the clock was ticking for the weather to affect the now deeply seated fire. Just from a values at risk standpoint (Homes, etc) more overhead, fire overhead and resources needed to be called. For the critics, I know of multiple crews and type 3 engines that were at home, not on draw down watching this play out. Indifference and the over confidence stopped the plug to be pulled.
For years I sat baffled until a few months ago and to this day. More and more true and factual information has been presented to solidify the real story. I am certain that the “Missing recordings/sealed information” will be known. Too many high level and private sector types are now really inquiring. I am sad for the losses and know for a fact that they want the entire truth to be known. The fear of knowing that inaction may lead to loss of job, self-worth and worse if the truth re-writes the facade is real. Look at the length many have gone to to make sure items remain a mystery. I believe that the families deserved the benefits as well as the truth. I would bet the bank that if Dr. Putnam were given the facts that the puzzle would be completed. I applaud Joy and all of you for the backbone and integrity you are giving the guys and all people who deserve the factual occurrences.
Looking at the admission of people on the fire, stating that it was wrong that so many went without an investigative interview proves the theories friends, family and all have thought but maybe didn’t open;y express. We are all adults that can take the truth, however painful, closure, accountability and justice for the men, their families and the general fire and public deserve. I look at the very TOP down from the General Staff to the Leaders guiding their crews. It is well known that a qualification doesn’t make someone ready or competent for the task. I have had to “Punt the ball” more times than I could count on fires and all risk calls. It is good leadership to call time-out when the power-curve flew by yo 10 hours before you arrive. I had to take initial attack fires and call for a higher level of Leadership many times. When those fires escaped our span of control, we re-grouped, stayed safe and waited for the Calvary. In some situations we disengaged totally, some we did what we could.
I am open to any and all opinions and thoughts. I am on the path of truly honoring the men, however painful, including conceding to facts that show there wasn’t more to the little conversations presented if that is the case. The layers of the final descent and how the fire was or was not managed are thick. With that said, so are/is the factual truth that is being presented. It is no secret that ROE’s, work/rest and many other human factor decisions were made re-actively and not pro-actively. We have read the SAIT/SAIR and know that monumental SA layers were ignored or missed. Every-time I visit the deployment site after the hike I have felt the mark left on the area. It is a feeling of anxiety knowing the guys are trying to say something. If anyone knows that power it is Joy and the ever vigilant group that have walked every inch of that ground.
I hope to talk about leadership and training and how it plays out for the good or bad based upon personal and publicly studied fatality fires. I believe that if we look back and studied how investigations were done, the outcomes and how training and experience matter, more will come to focus. Again, thank you all for providing a place to talk.
DownhillIndirect
I want you at my refresher courses, DND
Good review from DND. What everyone here believes–and DND is someone if my son/daughter wanted to be a wild land fire fighter would be sought out for a mentor.
Charlie,
That was my dads name, Charlie, good name, strong. Thank you for the compliment. I am seriously looking at taking my fire service instructor qualifications/teaching credential and getting back into teaching for an academy or a traveling cadre. I loved my opportunity to help others and be able to teach our new firefighters. Seeing them perk up when they figured out a tough question or speak up when they needed clarification. I see Joy investigating fires someday, I see you helping her teach her students someday as you walk them up to the boulders and down to the site. I appreciate you very much for standing tall, sticking up for your friend and insisting on truth. Via con dios for the night my friend, thank you again.
DownhillIndirect
Joy,
I’d love to go to school with you! You are a sharp lady and it would be soo cool to watch you in the classroom answering all the hard questions. You will be a great investigator (already are!). Remember “The best Fire shelter is the one between your ears”.
DownhillIndirect
I like that comment–the best fire shelter being that between your ears. I know Gary Olson smiled there as well. Too bad some don’t use that shelter and continue to believe the common sense ideas and rules developed by the experienced and seasoned wild land fire fighters are in no way “hillbilly” but life savers that keep the wild land fire fighter from allowing himself to be in a situation where another must risk his life on an ATV to save that “non-hillbilly”.
Was it a hillbilly on an ATV that followed the “hillbilly” rules that saved the “non-hillbilly” that did not follow the hillbilly rules? Sounds like a jingle but likely true.
I know Donut has suffered greatly as an individual from the tragic deaths of those he worked with. We all have and especially those that lost their son or a spouse or more so even a child that lost his or her father.
But I have often wondered why Donut never came forth with all the facts he knew. I wonder why he did not just say, look here is what I know and I won’t hold back because I know the importance to truth and the loved ones is a given in life.
After all it is well documented that he also was slated to die had not been by fortune saved by Brian Frisby and his ATV that got them out only by seconds according to his account.
He could have said from the beginning–Look I did not know shit about wild land fire fighting safety. I know I was left in a deadly position and barely saved by another risking his life by taking time to get me out–but I was just there taking orders and obeying, My whole safety and life depended upon those bosses above me–I believed in them and had no idea of the importance of knowing anything about safety rules or understanding and practice of the LCES in working wild land fires.
I knew the moment he was asked by an interviewer about the safety rules he had no clue as he stammered around and came up with the word “hillbilly”. He could not have represented the majority of the old timers–at least the ones posting here on IM. I can’t say that for some of the Forest Officials, and others that portray the Yarnell tragedy of the killing of the GMHS crew as nothing more than an accident
.
It sad how simple honesty would never have cost him a cent, yet would have helped many and set him in a better light.
DND, welcome back. Good spew with great points, many unknown about the Doce Fire with McDid-Not and the burnout scare.
Please provide more on the June 30, 2013, Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area – as you feel comfortable doing, especially addressing some of WTKTT’s questions and comments from when you posted prior on that subject. Thanks .
I guess I am just happy for your visit here DND
I say wtf RTS?
RTS,
You got it brother. The “Books” missed the important points to the very near miss on Doce. The other stuff was from a dear friend that was assigned to Doce as a SRB.
I am going to get my notes together regarding Sesame/Shrine and my conversation with someone that put himself and his crew on a firing assignment that was on YouTube, gone now unless you or Joy or WTKTT have it still. I really studied WTKTT’s videos and I think it all ties in together after reading the FOIA with DW talking about firing. It feels good to write, thank you brother.
DownhillIndirect
Downhillndirect,
The totally botched in every way firing op was the last major key to my puzzle. But what you’re saying here is one of my last somewhat minor (although it doesn’t seem that way, at all…) key. I have a much better ( almost crystal clear) understanding of the interpersonal crew dynamics now. Thank you.
Woodsman
I love Joy–we all do–well a few exceptions where people can’t handle the truth. She has that knack of being honest, direct and right to the point without the underlying hidden motives and agendas so many carry when they communicate with people.
Joy told me she once got in trouble in grade school when a discussion concerning the Mexicans came up. Joy had told her teacher that the white race would soon be a minority. That teacher could not accept that, yet today here in this county and state there are 35% white and 65% hispanic. The so called experts say by 2044 the white race in America will be the minority race. I believe it already is if you fit in the mixed races.
So yes you can expect change –and you know a chimp has 98.2% same DNA as a human. That is not even 2% difference. Kind of throws a monkey wrench into the Darwin theory of evolution–monkeys have been around for as long as man. I do know a few that might have a little closer to 99% monkey DNA–although Trump might be closer to Orangutan DNA. (My opinion -I know some think it is god DNA there –O I sing the song I am god, don’t fuck with me) But idol worship is quite common and some bow to a picture on the wall–images can be quite strong.
So some old god (wise alien) or such of the Elohim group got together and manipulated monkey DNA to give it some intelligence and a bit of a different look–although I have seen a few that would fit right in with the gorillas or chimps.
For $119 you can get a kit right now off line to splice DNA–chimeras are easy to make–A Rhesus monkey was the first and we had some sheep as well. Don’t be surprised if a monkey pulls you over and asks for your driver’s license–All you need is $119 and the savvy and you can do some DNA splicing–That movie of the Planet of Apes was no joke–very doable these days.
And I have been putting a computer together out of the new technology–so much faster than this one. And by the time I get it together the Feds will release a bit more of the alien tech so the one I am doing will be behind–It takes a really good one to know how to bring Trump into my living room where he can size me up whether I want that or not.
So I was looking a the “White” not “Black” techniques of hacking. Woah–the course and if you pass the test the jobs pay around 70 grand a year. And the programs are so smart–you just click on a windows or other update and windows or whatever shows a legitimate and perfect looking window and presto–you have just surrounded all that is on your computer to someone you do not even know is there. They can even look at you personally if you have a newer computer or a camera attachment on an old one.
How much is really hidden from us when this is so easy to do and yes, Joy I have to believe your computer system is hacked, your website and so forth. Talk about invasion of privacy and there is no way to even know it or prove it–you can hack my computer and use it to hack someone else and do that a few times and it is near impossible to trace. But as you say, Big Brother and his minions have no need to worry–the law gives the the right to hack you anytime they want for any reason they want. Oh save me from that kind of freedom–the freedom to go into someone’s private life without their permission.
But on the other hand, if you want to go public such as FOIA–give that freedom–it concerns me and every tax paying individual and the safety of those wild land fire fighters and others doing our dirty and dangerous jobs.
Maybe I should qualify–I really do not believe Trump to be ignorant–to the contrary–he is highly intelligent. If you were a UFO and Alien believer you would call him a Nordic–though I would guess him to be a Reptilian with a Nordic disguise The Reptilians have high intelligence and by their appearances they present well–they are egocentric and psychotic and above all cunning–shape shifting is an ability they have that humans can not do. There food comes from the usurping power and the fear they can create in those masses below them. Perhaps the Bush’s rival Trump’s ability–although he has us fearing the aliens that want to do our dirty work for a pittance. He has us fearing the opiates that his family gets from the doctor–and certain because drugs are not free they cause lots of problems–and even free they would but there is a way to manage that by designating areas for drug use and the billions that law enforcement gets and private prison corporations enjoy could go to treatment instead. But to many enjoy their power positions so the resistance is great–even the lowly cop enjoys arresting the druggie he calls slime bags.
There are a lot of broken systems here–the world wonders how a free country could have the most prisoners on earth and how we would need an iron curtain to keep out people that have always gone back and forth and now their relatives are the greater part of the population. The people that come in are not the scientists and doctors like many say they should be. They are the farm workers, the maids, the nannys gardiners–doing the jobs the elite and even the middle class would not do. Yet their children become the scientists and doctors and educated and citizens that are recognized as the cream of society.
But again drive fear into people about these people because according to true statistics 99% are good people–we have more criminals than they will ever have–we create and cause them with our system. But certainly if you are a shape shifting reptilian you can create fear of these people, keep the dope running because you know the enforcement had done nothing but increase it, and make more laws for the control the so called elite need to protect themselves with.
And the masses will buy it–they bought many needless wars–specifically the Vietnam, the Iraq and Afghanistan still ongoing and even many other wars before. These young men are our heroes at these wars–but they have little understanding that the Trumps, Bushes, Johnsons, and just about every former leader of this courtry has sacrificed them like so much meat.
I like the Norweigen idea–they take care of their ground–The Russians that dared get onto their ground paid by the thousands in fact the ratio was hundreds of thousands to a few thousand of those small country. A Husquavarna rifle if you ever own one is a tack driver–and every man in those countries is trained and has his rifle so if you want to invade those small countries it is going to cost you dearly–they are prepared. Yes I know they had a nut kill about 70 in Norway but had they not been armed they would be today under the thumb of a despot.
Common sense goes a long ways. I am a pacifist until you invade my country–I don’t give one flying fuck whether we protect that, But I do detest the idea that I have to see so many of our young men maimed and killed in the thousands because some rich son of a bitch wants to keep his pockets lined.
I am certain that the Politicians in high places know and could almost over night ween us from oil and its polluting effects on the world, yet that would eat into their immense profits. There is no money in free energy and it would free up the masses that are in the bee hives working two jobs to support the taxes these people are fleecing.
My opinions–and whew–I am supposed to be calm–but it is a situation that filters down into the reasons there is such small care to remedy the death of the 19 and the toxic retardant situation.
Did not read and correct–forgive my 7% it sometimes wanes to 5%. I dont give a flying fuck whether we proted Bush’s oil and Trump’s golf courses. is what that should have read.
proted meansprotect Gary is going to send me to China town if I don’t start proof reading. Some of those Chinese are sharp cookies–China keeps sending us junk and we keep buying it. I bought Nikon, made in China–I thought Nikon was Japanese. Actually the Japanese sent us junk for a long time but reformed and produced some fine products later, especially cameras and optics.
Maybe Trump can reform the Chinese–he is good at magic tricks and illusions.
The Chinese $500 camera Nikon Coolpix 900 lasted for I think a dozen photos and bonked out. Viewfinder went black and the 83x would not work–I sent it back and waiting for a refund on that eBay purchase. Do I recommend Nikon products–no more if made in China.
As do the Finns. I have read about their “Winter War” after they were invaded by the Russians in 1939 -40. Tough people…really tough.
The Mexican Story
Mrs Ferguson Government class
Landed me in Deans office
She talked down on anyone who was not white. In the 80s I knew over 100 gangs most where Mexican in downtown Phoenix because where my dad luved at times. There was either the rich or the hoods. No medium class in those areas back then. Anyways my teacher was sooo disturbed when I said she should show all people the same respect because your ears may not want to hear it or your eyes see it but the white race will be the minority some day and what you reap now you may sew later.
My school supported her.
Sad.
I paid the price then by speaking truth to power
Report to The Woodsman on Wildland Firefighter Training
Woodsman says (in part)
DECEMBER 30, 2019 AT 6:35 PM
1. Throw out ALL the training and start over. Hire Gary L. Olson to construct the framework and a road map.
And I say;
As you know, I have been conducting my own review and assessment of the current state of WF training and I have arrived at a number of conclusions, observations, random thoughts and concerns as follows;
1. There have been significant changes and improvements since the last time I looked at WF training. And as a matter of fact, I think it would be a fair statement to say that the changes have been so significant, that I didn’t know what I was talking about in some key areas. The over reliance on cartoons to train WF is now gone except for outdated lesson plans, training videos and other material that is still widely available on the internet. But if you go to the source of the latest training materials, everything (I think) has been updated and modernized.
2. If you are looking for training and you go to where it used to be, which was on the NWCG website
Welcome to National Wildfire Training
nationalfiretraining.nwcg.gov
Everything has now been moved to an entirely new training website. and is now under the Wildland Fire Learning Portal. Its a brand new world of WF training.
3. And once you go to the new Wildland Fire Learning Portal…BOOM, it’s like opening Pandora’s box, but whatever you are looking for should be there somewhere…eventually if not now?
4. My other pet peeve (as you probably know) was the use of rote training to teach new WF the 10 Standard Firefighting Orders, and the 18 Situations That Shout Watch Out. But I think the bottom line is that is teaching those concepts that way is unavailable because of the need to teach a large number of new WF a great deal of information in a short period of time. And so “cramming” the 10 and the 18 is just the way it is and is going to stay without changes so big and expensive, they just aren’t practical. Of course the biggest downside to learning by rote, is that the students will probably learn the 10 and the 18 without understanding the underlying concepts to these rules and guidelines?
5. My new pet peeve is that I thought the training plans I did review are in a very brief format which relies heavily on the knowledge and experience of individual instructors and assumes they all have extensive knowledge to expand on bullets and that may or may not be the case?
6. So…is entry WF training a real mess? I think the answer is that is all depends on to many factors for me to be able to judge because there are so many different WF training academies?. But that is exactly the problem. Whether WF training is very good or very bad shouldn’t be situational. WF training should be an absolute. However, I do think things have gotten much better since the last time I took a long look at what they are doing. So…except for continuing to complain about how case studies are made in the first place, I need to shut up about WF training.
7. The controlling authority for WF training is the NWCG. But they define their training oversight mission as follows:
NWCG standards establish common practices and requirements that enable efficient and coordinated national interagency wildland fire operations. These standards may include guidelines, procedures, processes, best practices, specifications, techniques, and methods. NWCG standards are interagency by design; however, the decision to adopt and utilize them is made independently by the individual member agencies and communicated through their respective directives systems.
And so in the end, everything is left up to the individual agencies and to the indepently run fire training academies that are scattered across the county without any central oversight, controls and mandatory standards which is the polar opposite of how LE training is organized and conducted because it is highly structured. But without an adversarial system (like exists in LE) of lawsuits and monetary damages in the millions being awarded to those killed and injured by bad training, there aren’t going to be any significant changes because there just isn’t any economic incentives to do so.
8. So anyway, that leaves me with my favorite pet peeve and that is how serious incidents such at the Loop, the Battlement Creek, the South Canyon and finally the Yarnell Hill Fires were investigated and documented. And that is because as you probably know, I think that is some of the most critical areas that we should be learning from are deeply flawed and in some cases outright lies. And since the system is basing advanced and corrective training on lies and coverups, how effective can the training really be? But to correct that problem is another entirely separate topic on how those serious incidents investigations are conducted and documented in the first place.
In summation…it took the Titans more than 40 years of neglect after they opened Pandora’s Jar (box was a mistranslation) to create the Hydra system that now trains the Chimera hybrid WF firefighters they bred during unholy couplings in Hades.
BOOM goes the dynamite! Count ‘em…five Greek Mythology references in a single sentence. Top that RTS you old fire dog!
Therefore, I shall not seek, nor will I accept The Woodsman’s nomination to construct the framework and a road map for all new WF training. I not only lack the KSA’s to undertake the thankless, controversial, impossible, hopeless, stressful job in question…there just aren’t enough years left in my life span (statistically speaking and based on current actuarial charts) to fix the mess that has been created by our fire gods through their indifference after they abdicated their responsibilities to adequately train our entry level WF workforce. And since nature abhors a vacuum, once that responsibility was abdicated by the employing agencies, private academies rushed in to fill that void and now they operate independently without any external oversight or controls.
Gary said: “BOOM goes the dynamite! Count ‘em…five Greek Mythology references in a single sentence. Top that RTS you old fire dog!”
——————-
my reply: I am kinda doubtful RTS can top that Gary with his new born sense of humor side
We will see….
Joy your are an amazing person–you put fire in the kitchen–and it is so important that your have encouraged so many to defy the rascals intending to hide the truth. Whew, you are a case for those that want to play a game–they know though that the combination of those good souls that are determined to provide the truth will prevail. Truth always wins though it may seem it is not.
Well Sonny – I want to state it again 2 0 2 0
2020.
maybe it is time for the 20th man of a 20 man crew to share his pure story by giving him the tool to show the world and I am hoping President Trump and some other politicians reach me so we can encourage just that.
Gary,
I understand. Well written. Well said.
Gary,
Hello there. I have been reading the training thread you and Woodsman have been discussing. Being “Fresh off the boat” so to speak I agree that training has evolved into something the powers that be have complicated terribly. I watched as a national level S-290 unit instructor the student level confusion as they were issued pre-work before their last 4 week academy started. The last academy held the key to your “Full-time” career as if a student scored below 80% they were shown the door and asked back if their region/forest would allow it. We had a small amount of control being we were only teaching one of 7 classes there before graduation.
We decided as a Cadre to not lower the bar and hold night classes to all and for the students that were having a difficult time. Over the ten year span of being a unit instructor and as a Leader myself our Cadre stuck with the extra hours knowing it wasn’t something the coordinators were happy with. Two thirds of those S-290 classes (100 students per academy) had 3-5 years of experience. The other 25 or so were brand new and had one fire season under their belts. As you know the weather unit, extreme fire behavior and fuels units can be very confusing for a brand new employee. Making sure all had the access to the NOAA instructors all week and that they could calculate the Probability of Ignition was our priority.
As we instituted the night classes/reviews the academy coordinators changed the percentage of somewhat experienced students to brand new student ratio. It became exceedingly difficult to present and make elements stick to the now 50/50 new to older student ratio. We still did it however, one week to teach and successfully pass on the most important foundational class in my opinion was becoming almost canned like all other NWCG courses. Most of the NWCG courses seventy percent is passing now. Lowering the bar from eighty percent. Lowering the bar as an entire agency sets the pace for minimalism and indifference.
Other job related academies I’ve attended required 80-85% passing and held a strict didactic and hands on regime. My first years as a Hotshot we were made to memorize the ROE’s and if you couldn’t, you were asked to leave. I watched multiple people be asked to leave as their didactic and physical fitness level.In my opinion the firefighters that are asked to defend all of us should be highly fit, mentally and physically. Allowing thousands of new firefighters to come in not prepared for the basics in both aspects is a huge step back. Most people have a difficult time the first week or so on a IHC but aren’t completely lost as so many are now, that includes all firefighting job descriptions at the entry level.
Since the “Pack Test” is the only gauge for Engines and IHC’s legally, people slip in and slip by. I think having a core test including didactic and PT like any other fire agency has is imperative. I believe that LCES, 10’s-18′, DND and common denominators are the foundation with other basic ROE’s. It is everyone’s job to be self-aware and the Leaders job to execute orders and assignments based upon those very ROE’s. I worked for leaders like you, RTS and Woodsman. I was privileged to do so and did my best to pay it forward after they did so much for me.
The South Canyon fire hit close to home as my IHC was to join them as we all worked together on a small fire in Nevada days prior. We got to know them before we were to be re-assigned. We were on day 5/21+ and were looking forward to the trip. At the last minute we were diverted to So-Cal. A few days later we received the news and were given time off to be with our families. No cell phones yet so our loved ones initially thought we were dead. Another hard one was watching the Supt. from the Sierra IHC deploy his shelter across from where we were doing structure protection. He made it but that was a terrible thing to hear and see. The 30 mile, wow, I won’t go there. Esperanza, lost a good Academy mate that spent a decade on IHC’s as well. Yarnell, well, I plan on opening up about my loss there and how the System destroyed lives, our profession and so many GOOD people I love.
What all of you have contributed to YHF is not in vein. So much revealed so far that people are looking long and hard now at the way they have been lied to. True closure, real closure begins with the truth. The truth is this, setting a standard for minimal certifications, training and experience is a terrible idea. Allowing individuals that barely meet the minimum levels has been and will be the reason people die on fires. From the IC, to the OPS chiefs to the DIVS to the CRWB. Inter-mixing to different disciplines that knowigly have minimal to no foundational experiences in the WUI/Wildland fires is petrifying. I look back at all of the fatality fires during my Wildland time and see a common red flag. I challenge anyone to put the factual events from any fatality fire next to the ROE’s. The box they all fall into share the same Human Factor(s) and failures by the very ones certifying those not ready or overly self-certain they can’t be hurt while blowing off the indicators of extreme fire behavior. There is no room for self-service in this profession. There is no room for Pride or elitism in any aspect of firefighting. True Leadership, under any circumstance plugs the hole in the cheese with safe and realistic tactics.
Training is imperative, it must be standardized and kept in check on a National level. Yes some regions and states are given the assignment(s) like vehicle fires and accidents but, in Wildland firefighting, standardization is a must. The longer the indifference at the highest levels continues, the more people that aren’t prepared or are overly confident will slip through and corrupt the foundation that has kept so many true students of fire safe and alive. I hope to discuss this in more depth if possible, thank you IM authors.
DownhillIndirect
Downhillndirect,
I really like your creative solution to the pressure to just pass students in your 290. We need more of that. Way to go!
We definitely agree on the issues of pencil whipped quals. My of my 1st concerns immediately following Yarnell was the massive number of potential wannabes in overhead positions on that fire that I was learning about. It pleases me to hear someone else share my concern for this trend across the nation from somebody with solid experience like you.
Be strong, man. We’re all here for you and anyone else who needs just about the only free sounding board we have. Joys right, there’s hope.
Woodsman
there is hope more than you know Woodsman … there is not one entity that wants to suit up and come for me now … remember Maclean smack about my Investigation style or was it Nowicki’s-
either way thank you from the bottom of my heart EN for your time in my life sharing and my listening because I did listen to you-
RTS and Nowicki are fluently in FOIAs and PRRs doing the research and on the index logs … remember that when you read any MADE FOR PROFIT book that has been made or will be made in the future.
Thank you Nowicki and RTS for all your hardwork. I read so much slander on you within the records. I am sorry you faced that. There are select few of us that have a passion and maybe through this aftermath we all grew from it and are not forever judged by it.
I can say when one reads the bogus stuff that was said about Dr. Ted Putnam- you will know it is time to educate the entities; we, the people will keep going sharing the truths … No more threats of injunction for harassment for me anymore especially like I saw in 2019 from Mayhew when I just heard a hotshot committed suicide- his lack of empathy – his quick to say what he did – that same week I knew one of the first hand folks was drifting that same way and I felt when I heard the news, it broke me and all I saw was this man Mayhew who was so proud of his product. You need to get re-trained if you stand by the SAIT SAIR, sir. Re-trained not in CRPs but real time investigating why 19 men died. I hope Jay Kurth’s professional backyard is being under a microscope about now.
Whoa now….like I said, I’m not qualifies to address the current state of training for WF (above the entry level) but I think DND is? I’m also kinda glad I’m not trying to work my way up the ladder today because I’m pretty sure I benefited from the absence of some of the standards that are in place for the intermediate to advanced training that is out there now?
Plus…as I have also written many times, .I think hotshots have to know a lot more today than I did to execute our Standard Operating Procedures (SOP) at the time which of course were;
1. Cut line and burn it out.
2. Cut line and backfire it.
3. Cut line, burn it out and backfire it.
4. Repeat as often as is necessary.
5. Mop it up.
I didn’t even try to evaluate training above the entry level of S-110, S-130and S-190 because that was way out of my wheelhouse. I can say though, it looks like it has gone way beyond where I thought it was, or where it was in my day. Although I never took classes any of the higher level courses for the advanced fire line positions (as I have said many times) and they pretty much left me alone as a hotshot crew boss because I didn’t want to climb up the fire line ranks. But, I was the helper (gopher) when some of them were put on so I in effect I audited them.
And just to repeat what I tried to say above, I think that the entry level courses such as S-110, S-130 and S-190 are either really good, or not so good and everything in between depending on a given course, on any given day, in any of the large number of both agency and private WF training academies. I was quite surprised (shocked actually) at how many of WF academies there are in every geographical region of the country for entry level WF training.
And although I believe that the training is probably very good, most of the time, I just don’t think there are many, if any quality control mechanism in place if it’s isn’t? And as I have written before, I paid the tuition for my son to get his entry level WF training at the Arizona Wildfire and Incident Management Academy in Prescott. And think that was pretty good, although I do continually question Donut saying the rules are hillbilly since he was a product of that training and school of thought…I guess?
And there are two specific areas that I do have some thoughts on that are specific as to why there isn’t and never will be any economic reasons or pressure to improve both WF entry level training and how serious incidents are investigated. I do think that area is important because as we all know, those case studies are then used to improve WF training. And I think given the fact they aren’t done in truthful and factual way…is very unfortunate for all concerned.
Gary,
It was difficult to watch the bar being lowered after a trend of improvement for a few years. I believe and from hearing good things that the AZWLFA is doing a good job. I think that I have an opinion that is less than acceptable regarding training watching incompetence where it mattered at the national level and on incidents.
Watching borderline performance occur and individuals being signed off after a few low intensity/complexity fires has become the mantra in some areas. I’ve watched people take the back door and the path of least resistance to move up as quickly as possible. In turn it shows on the calls they take command of. Your son is lucky having you help guide him and I would assume he is a bright young man learning from you.
Look at the crew build-up that occurred in the middle 2000’s. We went from 50 or so IHC’s to 107 in no time on the MEL build-up. It sent a shock-wave that ultimately created the US Hotshot Association. The association has kept the existing and new crews in line with standards and guidelines. It was born with many well respected leaders and has a mission statement all should emulate.
In my opinion the qualification standards for any qualification should be seriously looked at as well as training. I believe that the quality of an incident not quantity should equal four assignments. I believe one deciding entity for any hybrid fire agency as well as federal should be monitoring and accepting newly qualified personnel. We used to do that but many complaints over-ran the working system. I have had FD DIVS that completely became overwhelmed on basic incidents and on large going fires. Same rang true for other agencies.
Performance appraisals should be digitized and made know to any ordering source just like contractors. If someone didn’t meet or exceed their role on their last fire, move onto the next person. I also believe that an internal affairs officer from the qualifying agency should be able to over-ride the qualifying board on each unit or FD.
I could go on but I would like to hear your opinions as you have seen so many things and from a different aspect.
DownhillIndirect
Wow 😯 ! There is a lot there to unpack. I will try…but I have to give it the thought it deserves.
DND,
The subject matter addressed in your post is an area I have read and learned about here on this thread. My FIRE experience was very limited in scope and specific to hotshot crew operations on the fire line. As a matter of fact, I have an almost unblemished fire record in that I only went on two fires that weren’t as a hotshot.
One of those fires was working as a Sector Boss Trainee on the same piece of line my crew (the Santa Fe Hotshots) was on because I needed to get my ticket punched as a Sector Boss to meet the primary training plan objective my supervisor had identified as a goal for me. Although I never worked as a Sector Boss after that because in my mind, I was a hotshot and nothing else.
The only other fire I was on as something other than a hotshot was when I was asked to go with a SWFF as CLO to the Gifford Pinchot in Washington State late in the fall to fight an escaped prescribed fire. And even that fire was a anomaly because I was pulled off the crew at the last minute while at the USFS Tree Nursery (it was just south of the ABQ airport) that was used as a huge staging area for all New Mexico crews being dispatched to out-state-project/campaign fires.
A CLO had failed to show up in time to be on the departure flight so I couldn’t refuse to take the assignment. But even then my SWFF crew was working on the same sector the Santa Fe Hotshots were assigned to and they weren’t far from me.
In addition, 1984 was my last season on the fire line and I was in the forest dispatch office by the time the snow came. And that was where I spent my last four years with the USFS except for fire assignments in coordination and logistics roles. The bottom line is that I was fortunate enough to avoid the very serious problems you have brought up for the most part.
As you probably know, the FIRE culture (at least it did in my day) dictates that fire overhead very rarely, if ever, tell hotshot crew bosses how to accomplish the objectives they were assigned to complete per the written Ops/Shift Plan. The conversations invariably went like this;
Hotshot Crew Boss: What do you want us to do?
Sector Boss or other Overhead: You’re the professional here, do what you think is best and call me on the radio if you need anything.
Almost all fire team overhead back in my day weren’t FIRE personnel but came from other disciplines within the agency. And they usually came from the ranks of the professionals such as timber, range, wildlife, recreation and other administrative jobs. And as a result, they went on maybe one or two fires a year to maintain their FIRE creds or just because it was all hands on deck kind of FIRE season. And I was fortunate enough never meet one (until the Scott Fire of 1983 on the Coronado) who thought they could or should tell a hotshot crew boss how to call the shots in his area of operation. I was pretty spoiled by the system.
That’s a really long set up to tell you that I’m not qualified to address the problems you have raised. But I do understand and agree with the underlying issues that your post is predicated on. But this is an area I have to defer to others such as RTS and the Woodsman (or you) who have a lot more experience, especially current and relative experience in dealing with these legitimate concerns, or at least in mitigating their potentially catastrophic consequences. The Woodsman in particular has written extensively on this very subject over the years here on this blog.
As I wrote a short time ago, our LFO world was destroyed in the early to mid 1980’s and a NIMS/ICS world was created to replace it and the veterans of the old order had to make it work. I’m just fortunate that in general, I wasn’t one of those who had to deal with many of the nightmare scenarios that came with the new world order as unwanted and potentially dangerous baggage.
It has always been tempting to draw a straight line from the meeting where Director Hickman read us the ICS Riot Act to the catastrophic destruction of the Granite Mountain Hotshots on the Yarnell Hill Fire of 2013. And initially in my shock and anger, I did exactly that. But over time, I have learned it is much more complicated and nuanced than that over simplistic explanation, so I am still here and I am still learning.
I am researching my own posts right now as I try to cobble my book together so I will watch for some of the Woodsman posts on the topic. He could write a doctoral thesis on the issues you have raised.
I might be able to find a lot of them by doing a chapter by chapter page search for “pencil whipped quals” 😂
Gary, so much yet to do, ey. Here’s one for you. There is a lot of research indicating that the phrase ” I will try ” instantly destroys your credibility. “They” say that people who fail to achieve goals signal their intent to fail by using this common phrase ” I will try .” Just doing more than “trying” to help you avoid falling into that trap.
So “they” say to replace the word ” will ” instead of the weasel word “try.”
Copy that 5×5
And just as a reminder, when I did finally meet some USFS overhead who thought they should tell a hotshot crew boss what to do with his shot crew on the Scott Fire Of 1983 down on the Coronado, it was over my refusal to load my crew in an open truck bed WITH our hand tools AND chain saws.
And then that was followed up by ordering us to take showers when it was wayyyyy past our bed times and we needed some sleep, not to be clean. And I knew it was way past their bed times because I was starting to hear multiple mumbling from the back of the bus that said, “We don’t need no stinkin’ shower, we need some fuckin’ sleep, put us to bed before we have to kill somebody!”
So I said, “Hey…I’ve got a great idea as a hotshot crew boss, I want to bed my crew down so they can get some fuckin’ sleep before they have to kill somebody!”
So we got put on a charter plane home to Santa Fe, which was okay with me by then. I won that round…fuck overhead! (Or at least some of them some of the time, a lot of them are pretty good at what they do.)
BUT…the NUMBER ONE (1) RULE for a hotshot crew boss is to never trust any overhead and always assume that none of them know a fuckin’ thing about fightin’ fire where the Devil Dances!
P.S., I allowed myself a couple of F Bombs on this one because I still have PTSD from being ordered to shower my crew instead of putting them to bed!
Gary, I too was on the Scott Fire on the CNF, back in the day. And I refuse to believe that you “still have PTSD from being ordered to shower [your] crew instead of putting them to bed!”
A slew of other things maybe but definitely NOT refusing to shower your Crew while doing what a good Crew Boss should do and get them sleep instead. .
Well…if the truth is to be told, my PTSD from that fire is from being sent home. I try to put on a brave face about it, but it was devastating to who and what I thought I was. It required quite an adjustment for me and caused me to re-evaluate everything that I thought was true about the USFS. I don’t regret what I did and I would do it over if I could, but that Fire Boss and Line Boss really sandbagged me. They were gunning for me after I refused to load my crew into that open truck with our tools, but I didn’t know it until they were upon me like a couple of jackals. Anyway…we started hiking down the road towards the army base Fort Huachuca where the fire camp had been established and we kept hiking until they sent separate trucks for us and our tools. RTS…you know it’s a clear violation of written policy to transport a crew like that. I started hiking the crew down the road because I was so pissed off because I really got into it with the transportation overhead. I had no idea how far we were from the fort, but I’m sure it was dozens and dozens of miles down dirt backcountry roads. Our packs and all our gear had been flown to the very top of the mountain the Scott Fire was burning up and I mean it was gettin’ after it racin’ up that mountain roarin’ right up to the hand line we (and lots of other crews) had hastily constructed as we frantically fired it out. And then we dropped back, with our backs to the helispot where all of our packs and other gear had been piled to pick up spot fires that were sure to come as the fire hit our line with a vengeance. But our line held and we managed to pick up all of the spots. We were going to drop back down the leeward (downwind) side of the mountain, which was just yards from where we waited for the fire, (but we didn’t have to wait for very long) where we knew the fire couldn’t follow us if our line hadn’t held, but everybody (lots of crews) would have lost their packs and lots of other gear. The shift we had just pulled was one of those 36 to 48 hour shifts (counting travel time to the fire from Santa Fe) we never even unpacked our gear to spike out because it started raining near the end of that first shift. And so technically…we only worked the fire for one long shift. And of course that was in the days before they started issuing tents and the SOP was to fly in rolls of heavy industrial plastic that everyone called visqueen. Funny…I just looked it up by spelling out the word phonetically and there really is a brand called “Visqueen” made by British Polythene Industries Limited.
“https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visqueen
And if no rolls of visqueen ever caught up with us, we just slept in the rain, although almost everyone carried a heavy military poncho. But anyway…somebody decided that after pulling that shift, we couldn’t sleep on very top of that mountain. And I mean it was the very peak and that we couldn’t sleep up there in the rain. The only problem was…all of the helicopters were grounded because of the rain. So, you know what came next…probably. Yep…we strapped all of our line gear on our 60 pound frame packs that contained all of our sleeping bags, spare clothes and everything else. And then we picked up all of our tools and other gear we always travelled with plus our chain saws with saw packs and started hiking 🥾 down off the mountain in the rain and the mud. Which is why they were trying to get us a shower well after the army had shut down their shower building. The military people running the showers, refused to reopen the showers without authorization from higher ups, but none of the higher ups would give their authorization to reopen the shower building because it was beyond their pay grade. And this was after they had finally sent the trucks to pick us up hiking down the road, and then drive us all around the base looking for the shower building, with no military personnel to guide us, just lost line overhead, that included our Division Boss from the fire. Our Sector Boss was the Jemez District Ranger Paul Momper from the Santa Fe and his trainee was Jackie Boaz (one of the very few women in FIRE back in the day), a Supervisory Fire Prevention Technician (SFPT) from the Mountainaire Ranger District on the Cibola National Forest. And for you history buffs out there, you may remember from your grade school studies about the “Seven Cities Of Ciblola”, which were also known as the “Seven Cities Of Gold” that the Spanish Conquistador Francisco Vázquez de Coronado searched for but never found. Or maybe not if you didn’t go to grade school in the Southwest? Anyway…the “Seven Cities Of Cibola” and specifically the word “Cibola” translates from a Native American word into the Spanish word for “Pueblo” hence, no golden cities were to be found, only houses made of mud. But…interestingly enough, and to get back on point here, the Coronado National Forest was named after…wait for it…Spanish Conquistador Francisco Vázquez de Coronado. BOOM! goes the dynamite, I bet most of you didn’t think I could tie all of that trip down a rabbit hole back to my original story…did you? And just as a reminder from my post on the subject from many years ago, it was Paul Momper and Jackie Boaz who saved my ass during the official investigation of me, after I, with the Santa Fe Hotshots in tow, were kicked off the Scott Fire and sent home in disgrace on a specially chartered jet. As it turned out…Paul and Jackie had been on the bus with us (BOOM, I just remembered, it wasn’t a truck they sent out from the base to pick us up hiking down that road in the middle of nowhere, it was a BUS and a truck for our tools.) So anyway…somehow we ended up with sack lunches on the bus, they must have been on the bus when we loaded up in the dark, so the crew had been fed. And then after we finally got to the base, our search for the showers started. After we finally found the shower building, I told the crew to unload their wet clean clothes from their wet packs and line up for showers. But by the time we got lined up with our shower things, the military closed the door and locked it up because it was their closing time and they refused to extend their time in order for us to take a shower. Everyone else from the fire had already showered up and were ready in the fire camp on the base. BUT…we were late because the man (USFS FMO Richard Allred) who made me a hotshot crew boss and was one of my USFS Rabbis (which is technically a Law Enforcement term that describes a person of power and influence in a department who furthers an officers career, just like Choir Practice is what we used to have after every fire at our crew bar where you know…we talked about the last fire, the next fire, or some other fire, is also a law enforcement term, but you know me, the two disciples bleed into each other for me and sometimes I can’t tell them apart because Special Operations and the people who are attracted to that niche, are so much like many FIRE people, I can’t tell them apart in my mind sometimes…so it’s all good). Anyway…as you might remember from an earlier story, I was on my very first fire as a hotshot crew boss and Richard was our new FMO who had replaced Hub Harris when he became the Coconino N.F., Forest Dispatcher. And Richard was the man who showed up at our barracks one day and said to me, “Hey you…yeah you, you’re in charge of the crew until I can find somebody better. In the meantime, try not to get anybody seriously hurt or killed…okay Cupcake?” And of course I gave the standard reply I had been taught to give after receiving every order, recommendation, suggestion, or request, which was…”Sounds Good.” That was all I had to know as a hotshot crew member, Squad 1 First Pulaski, Sawyer, Squad 2 Squad Boss and finally, Squad 1 Squad Boss or de facto Assistant Crew Boss. Which really makes it sound like I had a lot of experience…but I really didn’t since I became a hotshot at age 20 and I was the crew boss by age…you remember, I was the youngest hotshot crew boss in the history of hotshot crews…age 23. It just shows you how bad the job really was to rational people who weren’t hung up on being a hotshot. Or even if they were hung up on being a hotshot, they were still able to make rational decisions about their future. Anyway…after working that fire all night long, which came working a full day stacking sticks the previous day, Richard (who I barely knew) and was the Fire Boss walked up to me and pointed to the ground and said, “I want you to bed your crew down here” and he pointed at the ground beside our bus. And of course I said…wait for it…”Sounds Good!” I could never tell what kind of mood Richard was in because his expression never changed whether he was in a good mood or a bad mood, happy or mad. Richard was Hispanic (he would say Mexican, which means Mexican American) and he had large sad brown eyes, which always gave him a sad look, but he looked especially sad after I said, “Sounds Good.” And he just stood there for a minute staring at me with his large, brown sad eyes until he finally said, “Your crew has been working for 24 hours straight. Their barracks with hot showers, their bunks, and where their cook is waiting to cook them a hot breakfast is 12 miles down that road and bedding them down here Sounds Good to you?” I didn’t know what to say and say I did the next best thing. I kept my mouth shut. After a few more seconds which seemed like forever…Richard finally said, “That sounds like shit to me. Take care of your crew.” And then he turned around and went back to managing the fire. I think that was the only time I ever heard Richard use a curse word in the three years I worked for him. And I never heard him raise his voice. Richard was another one of those guys who didn’t have to speak loudly to get what he wanted done…done. Anyway…back to my original story, I then told the crew to put their wet clothes and shower things back in their wet packs and load everything back up in the truck and then get back on the bus. Just as we were starting to leave, somebody had woken up the Base Commander and ask him for permission to extend the hours of the showers to accommodate us, which the Colonel agreed to. And so the Division Boss got back on the bus and told me to unload the crew and gear for showers again. It was just about that time I heard a couple of groans come from the back of the dark bus with some mumbling about needing sleep…not a shower. And that cut through the fog in my brain, and I said something about, no thanks on the showers, I want to bed my crew down, they need some sleep. But since they had woken up the Base Commander to get special dispensation for us to have showers, that decision wasn’t well received by the overhead who were present. But I never forgot what Richard had taught me, and if he expected me to take him in the best interest of my crew, the Division Boss standing in front of me didn’t give me any pause. So we got into it and the discussion got quite spirited and finally moved off the bus into the shadows of the night where there were other miscellaneous overhead and military personnel standing around. And then before I knew it…the actual FIRE BOSS and LINE BOSS showed up out of nowhere and lit into me along with the Division Boss. We almost never saw either a Fire Boss or a Line Boss on a fire. Under the old Large Fire Organization (LFO), the Fire Boss ran everything under “Chiefs” that included things like plans, finance, supply, transportation, safety etc. and of course the fire itself, which all came under the Line Boss. Below him came maybe 3-5 Division Bosses, and then each Division had maybe 3-5 Sectors, each under a Sector Boss. It was a lot cleaner to fight “forest fires” under the LFO rather than ICS, which can be really messy. The best analogy that I can think of is by comparing a forest fire (i.e. wildfire) to field dressing a deer. And furthermore, comparing LFO to a skinning knife, whereas I would compare ICS to the “Champ” model (the big one that costs more than $400.00) Swiss Army Knife. You could field dress a deer 🦌 with a Champ, but it would be messy. And you could open a bottle of wine 🍷 with a skinning knife, but it would be messy. So for our purposes…we really liked to fight wildfires with skinning knives and not Swiss Army knives. Anyway…that Fire Boss (who only came up to about the Smokey Bear patches look on my Filson Cruiser vest and obviously had a very short man complex) and Line Boss took turns tag teaming me, while the Division Boss kinda backed up. But…since all of this was happening in front of the Santa Fe Hotshots and they could not only see, but hear everything…I did the only thing I could have done under the circumstances. I went ballistic and backed all them down…but it got really ugly really fast. It ended with the Fire Boss “relieving me of my command” which sounds kinda like the opening scene of the old TV show, “Branded”, except he didn’t tear the Smokey Bear patches off my vest and I didn’t have a sword he could break into two pieces. And there weren’t any snare drums…although I think if I had been issued a saber that somebody could snap into pieces over his knee with his bare hands without cutting one off, I would buy my own saber that wasn’t made by the Blind Industries on GSA contract…know what I mean? And about that time I realized I was in way over my head…but it was to late to rethink either my tactics or long term strategy. Mostly because I didn’t really have a strategy since I was in uncharted waters never having been challenged as a USFS hotshot crew boss by overhead before that night. The USFS I had been exposed to up until that point…placed way to high of a value on both their hotshot crews and hotshot crew bosses for that kind of nonsense. But I instinctively knew one thing…if I had backed down under those circumstances in front of my crew, I was have been finished as a hotshot crew boss and rightfully so. My decision to bed my crew down rather than forcing them to take showers they didn’t want was well within my lane, wheelhouse and purview and wayyyyy outside of theirs. We were scheduled to be back up on top of the mountain with the other crews to finish the fire line around the fire and then mop it up the next day. And that day was going to start about four hours from the time of the showdown at 0400 hours…or what we affectionately referred to as Zero Dark Thirty. But I did manage to stop yelling at that point and I went completely silent. The Fire Boss then told the Division Boss to unload the crew and have them shower. And if you remember me telling this story before, (although with fewer details) that didn’t end well for anyone. And that was because after the Division Boss climbed up the steps onto the bus and ordered the Santa Fe Hotshots to unload and line up for showers, he was showered with half eaten fruit, sandwiches, and cookies in addition to soda cans and epithets that described both the Division Boss, his mother and sex acts the crew believed he had engaged in with his mother in some detail. Plus some things that were worse…much worse. Anyway…after the Division Boss managed to stagger, fall, and leap down off the bus, the Fire Boss and Line Boss who were standing nearby, decided that they no longer required the services of the Santa Fe Hotshots on the Scott Fire. So anyway…our Forest Dispatcher (Cyndie, who I would replace a couple of years later and I think spelled her name with a y?)) had been working in expanded dispatch (coordination & logistics) for the fire at the Coronado Forest Supervisors Office, but she caught a ride home to Santa Fe on the jet she had chartered special for our plane ride of shame. And since we were the only crew on the plane, the crew was spread out in their own rows of seats and I was sitting by myself separate from the crew. After we were in the air, Cyndie came up to where I was sitting and said, “that Fire Boss (who was also the Coronado N.F. Forest FMO in his day job) and Ray Page (the Santa Fe N.F. Forest FMO) are really tight.” But I wasn’t in any mood for anyone to try and cheer me up and so I just snarled, “So what…all of these guys are tight?” Since the USFS was just one big ole good ole boys club back in the day. And after that..Cyndie left me alone to my thoughts, which is something everyone on the crew was already busy doing. There wasn’t any doubt in anybody’s mind that this was a very serious situation that potentially came with some very serious consequences. So…after we landed at the Santa Fe Airport, the crew followed our SOP after every fire, no matter what time we got back to our headquarters, they went to work putting all of our fire gear, equipment and tools back in a fire ready condition while I drove our chase truck over to the Forest Supervisors Office. Out of habit…I parked in front of the dispatch office, went was at the very end of the first floor of a three story office building. Ray Page’s office was at the other very end of a long building. And as I strode down that very long hallway towards Ray’s office…I wasn’t feeling very good. Finally…I reached the end of the building and turned the corner to walk the last short hallway right up to Rays’s open door where I could see Ray sitting behind his desk writing on some paperwork laying in front of him. I politely knocked on his door just as he looked up at me and I said, “Do you want to see me?” Ray leaned back in his chair and said…”About what?” And I said, “About getting kicked off the Scott Fire and being sent home.” Ray laid his pen down and swiveled his chair to look out his window towards the Caja Del Rio Plateau in the distance as I followed his gaze. The Caja…lay between the Santa Fe city limits and the Rio Grande. It was part of my home District, the Tesuque Ranger District (later eliminated by being right sized and combined with the Espanola Ranger District) and was made up of tens of thousands of acres that was leased out by the USFS to small time ranchers to run cows on. I knew it well because of the project work we did out there and one of the most interesting things about the Caja…was the herd of about three hundred head of wild horses 🐎 that had the run of the place and were hated by the ranchers for the free grazing they did and the grass they ate up. Those horses were the escaped decedents of the Colonial Spanish horses that were originally Iberian horse stock that had been bred with the North African Barb and had been brought from Spain by the Conquistadores to the New World. The Colonial Spanish horse isn’t synonymous with the Spanish Mustang…contrary to popular belief. And they are a feral population that should be eliminated for the good of the land…but they can’t be (just semi controlled by various ways that don’t work) because of horse lovers and do gooders who got the Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 passed by Congress and so they are protected under federal law and the BLM is the lead agency to enforce that law. And yes…I did some Wild and Free-Roaming Horses and Burros Act of 1971 investigations. Actually…I only did one horse assignation case and two mass burro murders. Hey…it all paid the same, I didn’t care…the law is the law. I didn’t make ‘em, I just enforced ‘em. But forgive me, I digress…again. After a few minutes…it was probably just a couple of minutes, but it seemed like it was much, much longer. Ray broke off his gaze into the distance, spun back around in his chair and as he picked up his pen he said, “You can’t please all of the people…all of the time.” And he went back to working on his paperwork. So naturally I took the opportunity to di di mau most ricky tick after mumbling, “Sounds Good”, as I spun on my the heels of my Whites and headed back to my safe place…my office at the Santa Fe Hotshot Headquarters. And although I worked for the Tesuque Ranger District FMO, Orlando Romero, who worked for a District Ranger, who worked for a Deputy Forest Supervisor, who worked for a Forest Supervisor, who Ray Page also worked for, I knew Orlando would back me and any problem I was going to have would have come out of the Forest Supervisors Office. And like I said way back when…that was the end of it as I was concerned it because I knew that even if somebody in Region wanted a piece of me, they would have to come through both Ray and Orlando and that wasn’t going to happen. And the Regional Office did eventually conduct what was essentially an internal investigation and both Jemez District Ranger Paul Momper and Mountainaire SFPT Jackie Boaz, (who had both been with us throughout our time on the fire line and had witnessed the entire debacle from the back of the bus) were interviewed as part of the investigation and that was the end of that. And I never heard another word about it and the Santa Fe Hotshots never missed a beat…or a fire assignment.
Whoops…forgot this link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TXlUS5-ag_g&list=PLZ5CQELlegyKNlPyLft6tX7duSgkEmNdI&index=4&t=0s
I forgot to add the second phase of the formula to a happy and rewarding life. And yes…I have written it many times before, but it is one of my favorite things to repeat.
6. De-mob to our headquarters.
7. Get ready the the next fire.
8. Go to our crew bar (Mormon Lake Lodge in Arizona, the Green Onion in Santa Fe) and talk (relive) about the last fire, the next fire….or some other fire.
I mean…I think everyone can understand and appreciate the simplicity, the purity, the contentment and the allure of that lifestyle…am I right? 😎
Well stated Gary. And five Greek Mythology references in a single sentence. Masterful. So then, no topping that without some serious RTS GTS
I did not know that all these guidelines and rules of safe procedure formulated over years of wild land fire fighting by those wise and experienced in such are optional. You can be a wild land fire fighting boss and smile at them and dub them so much hillbilly non sense and turn your head if you choose. Well that alleviates the Marsh syndrome doesn’t it—you do not need to know anything at all. Just get out there and do your thing and if you don’t have the sense of safety go at it gung ho, and as the Russians did and my dad would say–those men were crazies–they would rush right into machine gun fire knowing they had almost no chance of survival.
So we have the Marsh syndrome–take orders and follow through no matter what chances your men have of survival. And it seems to be sanctioned by the fire gods with big G strings.
Gary, you put it straight.
Rep. Gosar asks Navy to consider naming ship after fallen hotshots
KTAR.com | January 16, 2020 at 8:47 am – UPDATED: January 16, 2020 at 10:07 am
“‘ They fought this fire to their death, something that would reflect well for the fighting spirit of a naval war ship,’ the Republican lawmaker wrote.”
They fought this fire to their death? Are you friggin’ kidding me?
According to the two eyewitness hikers that watched and photographed them all day, the GMHS performed a very moderate amount of work on June 30, 2013, They were perfectly safe in their perfectly adequate Safety Zone – in the black. The GMHS had the best overall view of the YH Fire, except Air Attack.
While heavily engaged in their “Discussing Our Options conversation, distracted by the fire reality … Without posting a lookout or notifying Air Attack or Operations of their intentions, they left said Safety Zone – with clearly visible and tangible and intensifying adverse fire weather which triggered intensifying adverse fire behavior, And when the clearly forecast and clearly visible thunderstorm outflow winds intensified the fire behavior exponentially.
“Mass ignition. • Actual plume dominance. • Rapid exponential growth of spot fires. • Spotting distances in miles. • Things that just made me go, “Huh … didn’t expect that.” • Fire activity that has that momentum feedback character, like Jimi Hendrix putting the guitar up to the amp, and it just builds and builds feeding back on itself. • When the fire and convection column induce high levels of turbulence into the wind field; when the momentum flow into the convection column is of the same order of magnitude as the momentum in the wind field. • Very rapid fire spread. • Three-dimensional fire. • Fire behavior in which large changes take place rapidly. • Flame attachment (the laying over and direct contact of flame with new fuels when there are steep slopes and string winds). The responses made it quite clear that operational users had thought about extreme fire behavior well beyond any formal definition.” Werth et al (2011) Synthesis of Knowledge of Extreme Fire Behavior for Managers. Parts 1 and 2. GTR-191 ( https://www.fs.usda.gov/treesearch/pubs/39553 )
They then disingenuously proceeded to hike through chimney and chute and ultimately into a bowl choked with desiccated, volatile unburned chaparral.
52 minutes from blow-up to burnover! ( https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/03/26/firefighters-dont-squander-the-early-morning-hours/ )
Yes indeed, they did everything to fight this fire to their death by ignoring basic wildland fire safety rules of engagement, continued down their steady drift in failure and their owns deaths; something that should reflect well for “complete” lessons learned when the truth be told.
you know what RTS.
Do you know “why” I wanted to walk away so many times?
Because I know the end results and the very organization who can help me has not-
Do you know if I were to point blank tell you about Donut or the actual first hand people here on IM…I know I did mention one here and I did that to see how it would leak around and believe you me I knew then the path would fail – that was when education and creds was my next step yet I drew the line in 2019 to allow another’s misinformation to carry over into 2020 and that was how the records release in pure form was born.
As for the news above, you are right but I cannot help to think to share to you there is more information lacking publicly and once it is out we will focus more to the very origin, the fires and what heat factor each area carried and what times and where in those Spur Roads near Harper Canyon, and etc…that matters more than why did they leave the black- more information is needed to be public.
That movie has done so much to promote the accidental death theory. If the Navy knew that the tactics take were those most idiots would avoid they certainly would not name their ship after GMHS. To do so would condemn the ship to a terrible end. I do not know how you can equate bravery with stupidity other than they did what the commanders love–strict obedience even when their actions are stupid.
In the military there is no choice but to follow orders. I know I was there and believe me I had to follow some stupid ones. Yet to disobey would be a certain court martial or even in some cases the firing squad.
But wild land fire fighters who do refuse to take high risk of death and injury to protect structures is the plan of a fool. We saw it in Yarnell, but wild land fire fighting is not military action, yet people continue to want to make a hero out of an idiot. You can not convince me, since I was at the very spot the bosses chose to entrap the men some time before they did–that their actions were in any way sane. It was insane to needlessly entrap a whole crew in the name of the glory of saving a few structures and most especially since the wild land fire fighter has nothing but a Pulaski and maybe a five gallon spray bottle to attempt to stop flames laying down at 100 ft and melting aluminum cans. Good lord, how ignorant can you be seeking glory with those tools and killing your men doing it?
It would be good if these bastard Politicians would start looking at the facts of what happened and why and instead of naming ships after men who were foolishly ordered to their deaths, start and investigation as to how to stop such foolish actions that kill a whole crew.
Yes, Name that Ship the Ship honoring the GMHS crew who were enticed to their deaths by stupid orders of those above those young souls. The actions of men attempting glory at the expense of all those young lives. Glory for what? The saving of a few structures which they could not have done in the first place.
Somebody of substance with good FF credentials, please write that Congressman and demand he come to IM and read what the Wild Land Fire Fighters of high repute and integrity have to say. Ship naming is secondary to the value of the lives of wild land fire fighters. And you have my permission to paste and send what I think of politicians since I am a civilian that would like to see one of them represent the people and not the Corporate Giants or playing a game of looking good to the voting public by naming a ship, yet never looking at the facts and what is of utmost importance–addressing the reasons for those deaths and the remedies to stop the careless causes of such casualties.
Someone said to me today “Thank You For Releasing The Records” while another from Canada stated “Thursday, January 16, 2020 4:46 PM “DO NOT SEND ME ANY PUBLIC RECORDS” … I am unable to put the info you’re sending into context since I’m not keeping up with things, and I don’t really understand it at all. I hope you are getting closer to a resolution. … Thanks 🍁 and then another who is tied to the GMHS over and over thanked me for never walking away and staying the course even through the attacks because the Leaders in the Fire Industry should have been the ones doing what you have done Joy
We all typically lack control about what others say about us in online comments and on social media.
It was how Sonny and I began to come to IM- he would watch what I said about him or vice versa-
In March 2019, there was a serious offensive comment made on FB with almost naming me by their description, trying to create a rally of basically bullies from the mostly clueless online Commenters. But the line was drawn when reference was made that this person had tried to take out – with a sniper – the GMHS families on the opening day of the memorial park. They were pretty much describing me. A formal FB complaint was rebuffed as within the bounds of acceptable behavior or something like that.
I just hung up with someone who called me and dearly loves Amanda Beno Marsh, but also has a depth of respect and admiration for me . We talked for a very long time, and we tried to come up with a way, as these records come out, to even further and make sense of it all together that we can help out with those directly and indirectly affected by this whole thing in some way.
Amanda has done so much for so many people. She has been through so much. I will avoid speaking for Amanda and what works best for her. Maybe it is best to read it and let’s work through it. Or do we even bother looking and ignore folks who do look at it, and tell you this or that. I have no good answer(s).
What I do know – at least for me – I have been pushed since the start to not share my time on the Weavers. I have held the records not just because of 2019 folks that said they were coming out to assist, but because Holly’s family history has fame and politics. And I really like Holly and her heart in this all, yet some of her tactics of not working areas through, and trying to make strangers think or feel a certain way based on what you say Holly was wrong. She has offered no proof as promised again and again – so I am sharing the entire record of public records. And you happen to now be tied into them just like me, so let the world make their own assessments from now on.
However, as the Judge told me in January 2015, ‘we can legally do what we are doing talking about Eric Shane Marsh and it matters to discuss it, not brush it under a rug ‘ … there are people alive that this eats them up because some have forced them to not talk about it. And there are people having sleepless nights because Donut will not confirm to the world if he was eating a burger at the Ranch House restaurant, or if he was in a different area than what the reports reveal, and eyewitnesses want that area corrected.
Tyson and Cougan have been a huge topic, and I always scratch my head as to why them? Because I can think of other FDs we should be really discussing and maybe someday Craig’s brother will do just that-
So for Amanda and me – I am okay with her, yet I want the unusual talks of ughs shown my way that came from her firsthand to cease. Or let’s go before a mediator like Summer Aeed and mend this.
I am seriously training to be a Law and Fire Investigator with a Forensic Weather focus. And there will be many other wildland fires besides Yarnell that I will be showing as time unfolds.
I will address the “character assassination” formally now that I have documents to prove it if this serious saga continues. Let us agree that we both look at the fire and its aftermath totally different.
I have avoided any personal attacks that some fell you deserve after all I have seen over these years. I did in 2014 show some frustration because of what was being fed to me from authority folks. These Memorial Runs have inspired so many… You touch so many peoples’ lives, so keep that going, Amanda.
In return, allow me the freedom and space to show my view of the fire in true form. This is not Holly’s fire or Nowicki’s fire or even John MacLean’s fire. From June 28-30, 2013, the hikers were on the Weaver Mountaintop watching it all, so we would like the freedom to share our weekend without all this shady sneaky stuff that has been occurring. And now what I am reading in the FOIAs and PRRs records, including text messages concerns and sometimes upsets me, especially the bogus ones between Jeff Whitney and another. Come on now, it’s almost childish and immature in many ways.
Amanda has done so much good through her EMF for so many over time. She has touched lives in ways one can only imagine. We all may have different walkaways from this fire, but this time, if they ever try to throw what happened to me January 2015, I’ll be ready. I have enough records to show before I even knew anything about Amanda, that she had an unhealthy glaze about me and was trinkling behind the scenes even before she engaged with me in March 2019 before I got fully involved with IM and my postings from years of gathering information. There was a serious offensive comment made about me being almost named by her description, while trying to create a rally of nearby students, for bullies. But the line was drawn when reference was made that this person tried to take out with a sniper the families on the opening day of the park pretty much describing me talked about above.
And that is sad. I am willing to work with you on that. My door is always open to anyone to life. I don’t shut people out. I feel every area to life can have resolution but in it does not mean someone will be my friend if I exactly as they say.
I refused to forward her emails that she sent me, and I always protected her correspondence with me, until I kept hearing certain FFs and YCSO folks tell me the “grey” area that was building cored to Amanda. At that point, I did show some authorities those emails, in person, and they were bewildered. It was unlike any behavior that they were ever shown, so there was confusion became of that.
In May 2018, when Holly Neill tried what she did at a conference ?????? I showed the emails from her and Amanda to them ???? and they were bewildered. They all apologized formally and so I just want the bogus stuff to stop- . By placing all the documents it has me in it too ??? and I am unsure if I like all I wrote out publicly. It is hard to swallow, and I know Sonny did it ??? because if we are doing the records then it includes “our” records too. I really wanted to avoid seeing Willis and I talk “on the fence” out to the world (that was personal). But hey – I get it. If the records are out that includes me as well. Sonny does not at all have a revengeful or spiteful way to him. He just got the records and did not want to hold on to it like I dd all these years. I would have rather to see structure like AI 9000 does when presenting it but both RTS and Sonny are sharing their takeaways on the fire. Who am I to talk about structure- I am the queen of rambling on – but it is okay for us to start discussing it freely.
I should be exempt from the attacks and harm, and suffer while one gains the numbers in social media “likes” because they probably send out their own virals to “like” their page as I have seen in the PRRs in order to spew untruths to others on Social Media. What was said March 2019 was blatantly false.
These newly released public records now tell the story – to the world.
It is never being brought out to cause any area any harm or ill intent. Instead to show what I like to call the “pure path” of what has happened – even before I knew it was happening. It hurt to see Wade never tell me what he told Nowicki, especially when she failed to even talk with us at that point. What hurt more was that Nowicki knew this news when she first met us, and never told us anything about it during any time spent with her.
I have seen character assassination now that I read these records – as defined here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Character_assassination
I wonder if furthering my education is now messing with their intent and plans from the start. I sure hope so.
Will I ever have closure to Yarnell Hill Fire? God willing, I know that I will continue on as long as it takes. And I will carry on with that archival fire(s).
I spoke to a lawyer yesterday who wanted to inquire on his own accord, and so we spoke almost an hour, and he really never thought his life would change because of ??? June 30, 2013. But it did. I know in my heart that IM has provided more information on the June 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire for more people to go run with and fact check and make their own assessments than any other forum I know, except maybe our Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations website. Until I get the signatures ??? from some, my blog has many potential posts in draft mode, and they will remain such until I get my signatures. ??? It will be under enhancement, modification, and upgrade construction mode until March 2020.
Once all the records are posted and revealed here on IM, let us all accept whatever anger, jubilation, or whatever emotions you have – no matter where you lay in this – let us confront the shame and detach from the need – detach from the image you created and become more in the image of God. It is “ok” to question our own values and others at times.
The person who did this to me on Social Media and other areas must feel justified in saying negative things (that are twisted, or complete lies). Because someone hurt them they can’t get beyond their own anger and hurt. To me, it is just a person who has allowed their emotions to control them. That I get. I am also one who must continuously improve on mastering, or at least improving, that area. The release of these public records, and some IM participants who have shown their expressions of reading the FOIAs and PRRs, is mainly because I held all these records in, for whatever reason(s) I am still unsure. Yet, I am seeing as I try to get educated, that some outfits are using this lady’s perception ??? and I have the right and the will to defend myself against lies or hurtful words. The records show who is the dominant Liar and Deceiver. I always cough it up that we all are under Spiritual Warfare and I never have judged these folks and keep giving it to God to help them with their behavior(s). I am okay with all in this world. Can they say the same? Make your own assessment.
All this time I took the high road because it benefited me not to react or engage. And yet, now I am seeing a paper trail that it is interfering with my educational goals. And that I have a concern with, especially the goading last Spring 2019 on Social Media, all while I was trying to get my education.
My apologies to SEB/FJS for this week. I have been using HaloDerm for an external tumor and all week it seemed to be stubborn – all while eating my fermented foods, and yet the scale acts like I was eating bon-bons, That kinda sucks, but I awoke today and they swelled up area was reducing and looks like the stuff finally did the job.
God Bless-
Well one thing is certain-when I get new info it goes right here for those that are wise in the world of wild land fire fighting can assess. As Joy has said and I was often stood aside while she conversed with others about the fire–don’t let Sonny know unless you want everyone to know.
Certain there may be a time to release information that is more beneficial. I may not be astute int that way, but I have seen so many bullies ruling the roost and keeping vital information hidden that I could puke.
A grand jury would have more than a few held in contempt for withholding evidence. They will not hold me in contempt–you will get it all and I believe a public jury including more than twelve of the finest wild land fire fighting experts is far better than just a 12 person civilian jury. However, they want and need all the facts possible to make decisions and judgements.
At this long time of 7 years, the cowards will continue to be cowards, the brave and honest will continue to be brave and honest and forthright with their information. So whatever I am given will be revealed as quick as I can paste and post. Most I did not even first review since it is FOIA information belonging to all. My own assessment is minor compared to those that have years of experience in investigations, wild land fire fighting professions and the like. Being a Hillbilly might even denigrate my opinions in the eyes of some.
So rest assured, I am game to see finality and the truth in the matter of the killing of the 19 GMHS at Yarnell on June 30, 2013.
I think my God fucked up royally Joy if he had that plan for the GMHS crew. These Gods are so nice–they wipe out people kind of lkie Hitler, Mao, the Russian Marxists, our Capitalist Presidents that continue to wipe out peoples. They get nasty at times and even wiped out every man, woman and child, except Noah and relatives that were given favor and taught to build a ship. Noah’s name was different in earlier accounts but the idea was the same. God gets pissed and your ass is grass.
Well the New Testament says all mankind would be wiped out but for the sake of 144,000 a few will make it through. Do you have your ticket to the 144,000? The Pope or the Mormon Fathers (there are plenty others too with tickets–JW, Protestants, and I think at least 364 places to go )have tickets to hand out –not free of course. You need a barbed wire around your neck and some good cash to get one. I think you will get a pretty gold plated seal on it if you pay enough.
It might be good to pray like hell before you put your head between your legs and kiss your ass good buy. 144,000 tickets drawn from odds of over 7 billion,–9 billion in about 30 years is small odds–so best buy a bunch of tickets if you can afford in that lotttery. And don’t worry much if the airline pilot manning your plane will be floating off to Jesus–his chances are probably at least as bad as yours.
So it is all in your mind–and these are my opinions–so isn’t it great that America still lets me express those–yet will not let the Blue Ridge and others we know personally that were bullied into keeping their mouths shut by threats–even legal ones where the crony Judges are going along with the lies.
The aliens that messed with our DNA in old time and the gods that screwed human females created the hybrids that down through the ages have ruled and usurped the common man. A few have had the scales lifted– and certain the aliens will continue their reign with few understanding the bee hive they have created and manage with a strict and secret and clandestine manner. They have to smile at how confusion continues among us because the human nature has tenancy to create a dishonest and back biting system. The old Fire Fighter knows about it–so do I, I once worked in the government system as a probation officer and later in an operation funded by federal money. The money managers were always in higher positions and worried only about how they could get more grant money and money to themselves–concerns of the people were only secondary considerations.
My dog has more sense than some of these bought Politicians–he can recognize the enemy–they can’t and most look in the mirror every morning.
Well, gods, aliens, spirits have at it–you are much like humans–some not at all good and some fairly decent. I kind of liked old Jesus before the space ships spirited him off–if they did. I don’t know if the Moravian’s follow his teachings but if they do, good for them.
Charlie
Hopefully not the sense of the dog that shot you😳
Charlie missed me by a few inches–just trying to teach me a lesson. I am not sure it helped.
Well he missed my heart by a few inches–but you read minds better than most.
Question Sonny.
How do we know this is you Sonny and not your dog Charlie on here=
Are you really still alive after that led in you all this time or is this Charlie the dog after all?
I still think Mr T did it (Mr Tarantula)
Sometimes I am not sure it is me still here. I saw a computer generated worm hole that some believe aliens travel through in order to make the light year journies from one galaxy to the next. It made me think of the actual tunnel of many colors that I was descending in when I had died after Charlie had shot me. (Well that may not be true about Charlie but it was the conclusion) I had at first thought I was shot from a sniper in the desert–but after laying out a while I thought my 45 had discharged into my back. That is what I had said when I called 911. But that tunnel I was going down was so much like the wormhole and I was not keen to the swift ride.
Maybe I should have stayed in the VA hospice after the first death. But then I would have allowed a shower only every other day there. They were saving water–maybe Trump’s golf course was needing the extra. The other thing I could not get out of bed without 6 nurses running in like a hurricane in action. I could see the next thing was to strap me down in a straight jacket. So fortunately Mark was to come up and with his RN status able to finagle my release.
Life is interesting if you stay alive–but in truth they can bring you back from the dead these days. How much of my brain is missing I don’t know but don’t worry too much about that–We only use about 10% to start with, however, I think I am down to about 7% now.
This is a murderous world- Charlie killed me then in a few weeks the Rancher here killed Charlie and Cowboy, then now Scooter but a 22 round went though his shoulder. He limped around for a couple weeks–I just was not able to get the fence fixed and these fellows are diggers–and you were here so you know that they can avoid that ranch–and they do.
Otherwise the whole desert is there. But it too has its dangers–Brownie the largest of my Huskies was killed by a Javalina–although the three other dogs killed the Javalina in the process. They all got jabbed with his fangs–something that would scare Frankenstein. I have the top part of the skull–the dogs fished off the bottom as a bone chew. When Mark saw it he said jesus. His huge pit bull called Tank could not even take that on.
But we are a murderous world, we kill terrorists by the dozen and they kill back. People are killed by the thousands in auto wrecks, Heart attacks kill hundreds of thousands and cancer adds hundreds of thousands more to the tally. Even flu kills tens of thousands each year–and the spanish flu during WW! times killed into the millions. Black Plague wiped out over a third of the people during the middle ages–and Ireland and other countries have starved to death in the tens of thousands.
Death is so prevalent that I think the politicos and just about every one else becomes jaded to it. So to some 19 wild land fire fighter deaths and 200 old people at Yarnell might seem miniscule and is if you compare numbers to what the Bush Bunch is responsible for a death count of our young ones sent to protect his oil (and his cronies) oil interests. Yippee Texans, don’t you just love that killer Bush family?
But again we are a jaded people. Still a few of us not so much–especially those of us and there are many whom have lost loved ones in this murderous world.
Will the politicos take the 19 and 200 seriously or are they too jaded to death so that it will continue to be celebrated as an accident?
What follows is an email thread of sorts from Joy A. Collura and Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) to the regarding a Public Meeting about: “ State Land Department of the State of Arizona before the State Land Commissioner in the matter of closing state trust surface and sub surfaced land south half of section 9 in township 10 North Range 5 West, 320 acres, Yavapai County Arizona. “
You will see from the very beginning how serious and sincere these two were (and still are) regarding key issues, asking the hard questions, and holding on to their ground with professional integrity.
It has been slightly edited by RTS. It was seven friggin’ pages long in a Word document; trimmed to four, so I’ll post it as two posts
“Date: 12/27/2014 12:50:59 PM
Subject: we will do our best to be present. If not, here is our citizen concern(s).
“Tuesday, January 6, 2015 at 3 p.m. It will be held at the Yavapai County Supervisor’s Office located in the County Administration Building at 1015 Fair Street in Prescott. The public is invited
“ Citizen Concern(s) ; from Tex Harold Eldon Gilligan (Sonny) and Joy A. Collura (480-280-5813; PO Box 42 Yarnell Arizona 85362. the civilian hikers who saw and photographed the GMHS on 6-30-13 and is a part of all investigations records and eye-witness the YHF from the mountaintop of Weaver Mountains that entire weekend.
“Concern(s): State Land Department of the State of Arizona before the State Land Commissioner in the matter of closing state trust surface and sub surfaced land south half of section 9 in township 10 North Range 5 West, 320 acres, Yavapai County Arizona.
“ The order no. states years 2013 and 2014 so does that mean such order has dissolved now that 2015 arrives?
“#3 of order no. 006-2013/2014 it states the State Land Commissioner closed area except to the families of the fallen and those public safety officials charged with investigating the fire, protecting the public and otherwise acting in their official capacity.
“ Since the fire my camera and game trail cameras prove that the current Yarnell Fire Department Chief Ben Palm has allowed certain individuals out there and in that the individuals did not have a state land permit nor were educated it is a requirement before the fire and still after the fire to be on state land and the order number 006-2013/2014 did not state that parcel 800-20-049E exempts such individuals from having on hand their state land permits.
“ #4 of order no. 006-2013/2014 dated the 12th day of July 2013 it stated State Trust Land had to assess the condition of the land. Enough time to assess it yet? Enough time to properly fence and sign it so you can enforce no trespassing laws?
Page 1 10/1/2018
“320 acres to our acknowledgement is still restricted since last YFD meeting I was handed by Arlon Rice and Chief Ben Palm a copy of such yet I inquired and awaiting the FOIA on if it dissolves for 2015?
“In that 320 acres map, that was given to use by Paxon/Payne Summer of 2013 Map linked here: ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/pxdme30gf9jevwv/Yarnell%20Hill%20Fire%20%282%29.tif?dl=0 )
“We received notification Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 8:19 AM from [email protected] “Sonny & Joy, Thank you for your note and your interest. I have forwarded your information to Deputy State Forester Jerry Payne and he will contact you directly. We are very interested in seeing anything that you have to share and appreciate you getting in touch with us. Very best, Jim” Jim Paxon, Information Branch Chief Arizona Game and Fish Department 5000 West Carefree Highway IEIN Phoenix AZ 85086
“ Consider that those men were employees of the state; therefore, all people of this state have the right to go to that memorial to honor and pay their respects. Know that the loved ones of the GMHS are not the only people that have that right. They had many friends and people that have been refused that right. We found it strange that access was given to many firefighters who never knew the men personally yet people who did know them have been refused as well as the nation’s top lead fire fatality investigator Dr. Ted Putnam. YCSO Sgt. Ashby stated as Joy A. Collura expressed this “grey” area that Chief Ben Palm is operating under and we need to make it clear.
“ Know that these men have been universally publicized as heroes to the nation. They are recognized as and are definitely heroes to the nation. To limit the access to all citizens to honor those men is to deny the national honor they deserve. It would be like restricting the Vietnam Memorial to only the loved ones when those men served for all of us. So too, the GMHS have served for all the people. To limit access to the very area they died and flagpole would be a dishonor to those men and their right to national recognition. If you cannot give proper road entry to site, many have come to us to be their voice even though we have no interest in the matter because we don’t hike the bowl but for them we are expressing that the people be allowed to hike the Weavers in its completion and going the legal Congress side way that does not intrude on the privacy of the Helms / Whitehead / Baluco / S&P / Maughan parcels out there.
“If they choose to walk on private land than do as we have and get written permission from land owners and have your proper state land permit on you when in that area. We the hikers think the area should be sacred and restricted yet properly signed and feel the maintenance should be done by the firefighting community to keep the money rolled into supporting the firefighter community and make something simple and elegant but we also represent the people who cannot speak due to small town politics and for them we spoke here.
As we emailed Darrell Willis, Division Chief Mon, Dec 8, 2014 at 9:55 AM by cell so do not mind typos “ Can I as the desert walker explain the deployment site area before the fire …We all avoided the area due to its density yet curved wash areas behind Helms so some parts to the area we did travel being rancher with horse and dogs…me and at times a herpetologist…or a once in a blue hiker yet there was before the fire near there campers and prospectors who normally stayed in stanton yet in summer to the cooler climate near that spot. You had North Ranch Congress resident hike it twice a year or seen hunters but if you restrict only the box canyon and dissolve the 320 acres restriction it will be less costly to fence off versus 320 acres and as well as I spoke to YCSO and state land trespassing officer Steven Rusiechi…the way you currently have it there is no legal base to enforce trespassing charges and you would put game trail cameras in the fenced area so you can see who is entering the box canyon versus someone having to sign in with chief ben palm…let the loved ones of the gmhs be free to go when they please…recently again slander and misinformation out there that I have a Craig’s list ad and I’m hiking people to the site and when I asked (CONTINUED ON NEXT POST)
(CONTINUED POST PART 2 FROM ABOVE)
“… for the foia public record of such call she said it was not official but I will sue anyone publicly stating I go to the site no matter who they are… only been there with osha and the people making the other crap up God will take care of me and protect me from insidious lies and people who create them … Thank you for saying I can have an input because that area the men died is my second home…the desert roots me closer to Him. I buried so many wildlife upon our return of evacuation and it was hard because they were my family in a sense. I watched the mothers of many out there nurture their youngs and God gifted me something special so in the box canyon where the men died me…frankie serros and tommy maiden relocated way over a hundred rattlers because it was away from people in the most dense area and when we came back and did hike with Morgan loew and shawn there was a rattler in a branch just a skeleton and Shawn took it for his kid. I always called behind helms where the men died rattlesnake canyon and reason i fought at exact gps where men died with sonny and took photos of the terrain that morning because it was not yet day break and I knew HOW many rattlers I relocated.”
Page 2 10/1/2018
“We understand a highway 89 Memorial is being made yet us the hikers understand the sensitivity of the people who desire to go to the actual area without having to get on a roster list of Chief Ben Palm’s on who can or cannot access such visit. Many we have hiked state they just want to go when they want to go without having to go through the ropes. As the hikers, we did not enter the site (bowl canyon) before the fire and after the fire except once with OSHA Bruce Hanna and Brett Steurer yet we were at the same exact gps location of where the men died the very morning taking photos on June 30, 2013. It is not an area of interest to the hikers due to the treacherous steep grade terrain and before the fire due to its maze-like density quality of that bowl canyon we did not hike that area but Joy A. Collura along with Thomas Maiden and Frank Serros relocated many rattlesnakes and skunks to that very area nearing the 2 track ridge.
“
“You are going to have to set aside the same land restrictions to previous fire fatalities if you plan to do it for here. Selling the land to the widows? The men were not employed by the widows rather they worked for the people and the state. Are we comprehending correct that the 320 acres that partial is belonged to a private landowner will be taken by eminent domain?
“Before the fire: ( https://www.dropbox.com/s/0bz5c68zmpe903i/100_0183%20%284%29.JPG?dl=0 )
“Christmas 2014 after Joy A. Collura cooked for 2 days she stared at the Weavers from her back patio and wanted to spend Christmas with the 19. She geared up; placed a purple bandana and blindly led her way up the mountains to the mountain top and stationed herself with her hiking pal Sonny Gilligan and Skeeter and sang Cowboy Christmas Christian songs/ate cowboy beans by the cowboy campfire and slept over watching over the deployment site where 19 men lost their lives in 16 degree weather and high squirrelly winds. Until the day people take 6-30-13 seriously and more accounts show the proper clarity this YHF deserves you will not see me step away like Amanda Marsh wrote to Joy A Collura Tue, Oct 14, 2014 at 3:10 PM “ You’re involvement is very small. You have the choice to step away from this. I don’t. You have the choice about your life. Don’t spend it stuck in this. The media, the strangers, the weird people who think they know the guys, it just all has to go away now. You can walk away. “ Amanda, I will go with what you wrote me Tue, Oct 8, 2013 at 3:34 AM “If you want to carry this on your shoulders, I support that. I will tell you that it isn’t your job. I appreciate you wanting to help and be of service to such a great man. ” Eric Marsh was not the sole reason but I will continue until the day I pass on to assist reaching that clarity to the YHF for ALL fallen–
“Other areas of concerns…19 men died on 6-30-13 yet there are many deaths since in this community and Sonny has educated locals about the retardant. He hiked a State Board Respiratory Specialist and that man is no longer with us and died of respiratory concerns; a hero to us- Zack Ashoor. Sonny’s concerns: These men after all are National Heroes but being treated only as local heroes by limiting the access to the area.
(Phoenix New Times July 2013 YH Fire Arizona 10 Worst Wildfires in AZ History link)
And 2000 gallons of fire retardant accidentally dumped into the Fall River in Oregon killed all the fish (some 20,000) along a four mile stretch of the river.
(YH Memorial Fund.org link)
“Chief Ben Palm – Yarnell Fire District [email protected] It is on record that prior and current YFD firefighters contacted in person, email, phone, text that Chief Ben Palm wanted hikers arrested and was as well heard on December 1st 7:30am by YCSO Sgt Ashby such warning that on December 2nd 2014 on her own accord called Joy A. Collura and Sgt. Ashby apologized. One firefighter on November 2nd, 2014 10:06am consistently and [complements] all other accounts that we had heard and we trust this source that Chief Ben Palm is trying to get the hikers arrested for trespassing. We addressed matter directly yet his reply initially was if we wanted to believe the source that is our choice and it was a direct yes or no question and later at last YFD meeting they gave the hikers the printed law yet there is a grey area in them following it.
“The current lay out YCSO and Chief Ben Palm could not arrest anyone out there for this is not proper signage or fencing as required to enforce laws on “no trespassing” and we spoke to State Land trespassing officer. For the record, we have only been to the site with OSHA investigators Bruce Hanna & Brett Steurer; well documented event.
“Very odd that the fire author John MacLean has a team he had us hike with Wayne and Holly Neill and Dr. Ted Putnam & Holly first wrote us Tue, Oct 22, 2013 at 5:57 PM and their team sent letter to us from Dr. Ted Putnam on Thu, Nov 7, 2013 at 8:10 PM. Yet odd that the nation’s top lead fire fatality investigator is refused access yet Holly Neill not only has been to the site but slept at the Helm’s location this Summer. Grey areas alright. Same team; different allowances shown. My camera and game trail cameras show the real story of who has been to the site and I can tell you factually many did not have a state land permit until they took the hike with the hikers.”
DROP BOX LINK related to above indicates plenty of people out there hiking
( https://www.dropbox.com/s/2bzbtq0uwmxufub/100_0251.JPG?dl=0 )
“[One] of many photos to prove my stance here has to be an even ground here or stop the restriction behavior because we are well documenting this from the fire and its aftermath. We were concerned what authority roles can do to damage the hikers even to the extent if we were falsely arrested based on another’s slander/misinformation. Thank the good Lord, G.E. stepped up to the plate and offered to the hikers resources and the name of legal representation that goes up against State and Federal and wins cases. We will never use such area yet have spoke (sic) by phone before the YFD meeting to get some general advice how to conduct ourselves at such a meeting because neither hikers ever attended a public meeting like such.”
And as WTKTT has often posted: Regarding my editing and posting, “your mileage may vary …”
Joy,
There are no coincidences in life….RTS and I both agreed to that after we re-connected in July of 2018. I held onto more anger, sorrow and pain than anyone should’ve until I met GS in one of the most beautiful towns in Arizona. I have always loved the Mogollon Rim and the features in each town it runs through. I remember working on a few ranches as a young man in Skull Valley, Williamson Valley and one near Yarnell. I was never a real Cowboy, nor did I rodeo or work extensively with cattle like some of my buddies did their whole lives. I did however get the opportunity to really see parts of Arizona that most will never see. Living there provided a healing force that I can’t explain but, I know that you, RTS and allot of friends and family would agree it is a special place. I met RTS in 1996 on the “Three Peaks Fire” just east of Roosevelt lake. I had the great opportunity to work for three of some of the best Leaders the IHC world has ever produced. They asked RTS to sit with us and share his amazing fire behavior knowledge with all of us. He went into great detail and had everyone’s attention as he took us through a few fires he and his crew were on that year and in 1995. He was kind, sharp and spoke with strong Leadership presence. That quality sadly has been watered down to the point that people are afraid to speak up strongly on fires as the HR tent is ready to pounce on anyone with tender scruples. Being in-charge and Leading is the trait that has been almost taken away from the fire service in some places. Group think and fearing that someone may not take decisive, sharp and direct orders has injured some of the culture of “Old School”. The “Old School” I speak of is exactly this, Strong Leadership, morals, values, dedication, TRUTH. It is also Followeship, leading up the right way and basing all of your decisions on a simple formula.
The formula that has kept so many safe and free from injury, near miss or death is this. Take L.C.E.S. add the 10 standard fire orders (not suggestions) and observe the 18 Watch-outs form as the day or night progresses. Yes the 18’s will pop up on every fire. As they do or as you apply risk/hazard analysis the indicators that show each firefighter what could or will happen next will guide us through an incident safely. I applied this to any type of emergency call we were on. Being a sound and strong Leader means that you are a student of fire. You must immerse yourself in all aspects of the job you are being tasked to do. Knowing your people and their strengths, or weaknesses makes your team strong. Setting realistic goals and trigger-points and STICKING TO THEM is a huge part of LEADERSHIP.
Knowing when to say “No” and doing nothing is doing something. Sitting in a true safety zone until conditions change to realistically re-engage is smart firefighting. Denying an assignment because it violates the ROE’s is responsible leadership. Attempting to safely mitigate hazards utilizing the ROE’s is a good thing as long as you are prepared for the possibility of extreme fire behavior. Depending on aircraft that can be quickly taken away for a new start that threatens structures for example is bad business. If we truly look back at the fires that killed firefighters it will lead you to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines. On an initial attack fire or on a campaign fire not adhering to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines is madness. Allowing the “Moment” or other visual factors to blind you from thorough scouting and safe plans execution has led so many to devastation.
What I just said was a gift given to me and to many others. Some would say that there are too many “Rules” to memorize and that fatality fires “Just happen”. It is not luck that a lot of firefighters go un-harmed and retire knowing they did their best to Lead and follow. Why would we lower the bar because some say there are too many rules to memorize? Why would anyone go pubic on forums or on heavily visited websites and say that we can not avoid firefighter fatalities? I look at Mr. RTS and Mr. Gary Olson and know they applied sound judgement based upon their assessments based upon tangible and realistic ROE’s. Long careers leading firefighters, assuring that their people had the best training, opportunities and safety each day. There is a huge difference between a Leader and a supervisor. A leader assumes all responsibility and will never ask or put their people in known harms way or ask them to do something they wouldn’t do. A supervisor knows only the position and not the dedication it requires to keep their firefighters safe. A leader will draw a line between themselves and their firefighters. A leaders voice is heard, taken seriously and is respected for their actions, not words. As I move onto another chapter in my Firefighting career I pray for the new firefighters that only know what they are told. I hope that they are expected to learn the ROE’s, stick to them and become students of fire. There isn’t room for anything less in my opinion.
Accountability is a 14 letter word that eludes so many. I pray that the fire service in general has an uprising of true Leadership and the culture of “the middle of the fence” is dismantled. OK, enough on the equation.
Joy I am so blessed to have gotten to be a part of your life, however small or big it has been, you and RTS have provided a conduit for healing. For years I sat wondering why the truth wasn’t being made publicly known about the loss of the men. I wondered why after the SKM fire, true subject matter experts like Mr. Putnam were being excluded from exposing the truth so that we could truly make a shift in finite safety. I do not consider authors or magicians to be the final word on fatality fires or firefighting. I do believe that if you have a position of power that allows the truth to be told, tell the truth. Diverting from it loads the revolver for the next generation to fail Allowing people to duck accountability at all levels has created a very destructive atmosphere. It is no secret that on all of the fatality fires during my two and a half decades had individuals at all levels that dodged accountability.
I believe that you and the many co-authors of your/their work will bring truth to light. I am not surprised to read the factual information that you have provided after years of hard work. I know your love for the men that passed away on June 30th 2013. I know that God gave you a gift that has finally helped expose the reality of bad choices. It is there for any firefighter with a pulse to see that the ROE’s were violated on all counts. There is a giant gap between structural firefighting and Wildland firefighting. Doing both without a solid foundation in both is a recipe for disaster. Pride is a double edged sword. Being proud of the excellent job one may have done is good. Allowing Pride to drive a decision is deadly. We lose more fires than we catch, that is more than OK. Weather is a variable we will never control, accepting that is OK too. We can control how we employ tactics based upon the topographical arena we are presented with. The same goes with how we use fire, do structure protection and time of day chosen to attack a fire.
I was on the “Old Fire” and the “Grand Prix” fire years ago. we lost thousands of homes because we couldn’t safely engage. It was a hard pill to swallow but in the end we saved more homes and lives, including the firefighters on both incidents. There isn’t a home including my own worth one human beings life. It is hard to deny or to disengage from homes that aren’t savable. I have shed tears and tossed chunks over the loss of homes we were asked to protect. Not one SGS has belittled me or our strike teams for making safe choices. It is hard to not be a moth to a flame but assessing hazards is our responsibility. Having a solid foundation of Wildland firefighting in the urban interface in multiple fuels types is a must. Envisioning the worst case scenario at all times is our responsibility.
Not having a plan for when the “Shit hits the fan” is insanity. Having a true escape route(s) to safety that are timed for the slowest person or apparatus based upon the worst thing that could occur is one of the many reasons we lose firefighters. Early on after YHF, I took the information presented and weighed the ROE’s against the end event that occurred. just like you I was blasted for talking about the events that led to the loss of life and friends. I have no doubt and share the same opinion as DW in regards to the recorded frequencies and how people were or were not interviewed. If we look at the actions of our fellow comrades from a ROE standpoint, LCES and the Downhill Indirect guidelines were enough to stop the descent. The flank of fire shown in the Mackenzie video would be enough for me personally to asses all actions on the worst case scenario. I have never felt like a piece of “Shit” for sitting in the cold black during the “Prime time” for active and extreme fire behavior.
After working in the heat all day and as the fire transitioned into a very active backing flank fire (with T-cells) in the immediate area of influence, the men were tired, most likely low on water and energy. Blood sugars were most likely low affecting the decisions of many people on the entire fire. The IC and both OPS chiefs have a responsibility to be the ones to call a time out early. When trigger points hit, expected or not the Command presence must be there to order all of the firefighters to disengage and stand by in their safety zones. I get that I am quarterbacking this. But, I can’t count the times where my leaders have called time out regardless of the values at risk and we sat safely in a good safety zone. There is a huge difference between a Safety Zone and a Deployment Zone, I will not discuss this as we know how it ended.
Joy, you hike, you also go to school to learn as much as you can about firefighting in the Wildland. You and Sonny saw everything from a first hand account and as adults that know your mountains I know what you saw struck you as insane. I agree with you both and if I was an IC, OPS or a DIVS on a fire you saw in an area you knew well I would’ve picked your brain on everything. Heck, our ROE’s tell us to talk to the locals for intel, roads, two tracks and the weather we can expect. Being dismissed ultimately set a pace that put the entire fire behind the power curve. You and other locals were denied the opportunity to help, look at day one and so on.
I appreciate you and I am ashamed that you, RTS and so many have been treated like crap for so long. You both are not alone as you are very aware the shift in perception and truth. Your hard work and dedication to truly honor the fallen is Leadership. It is not disrespectful to replay what occurred or to demand all of the documentation as a student of fire or as a tax payer. Your gift has put you closer to what is real and what was presented. If I were to fall from a LODD I would want all of the information to be made clear for all to see so that my fellow firefighters could learn and grow as leaders. I know of one man that perished that lived by the same code.
It is a shame to have asked honest and direct questions to one of the people tasked to honestly report the findings of YHF and to be banished for it. Tugging on the tail of the snake sometimes means a bite but, I am only stronger for it. I have never been a yes person but my firefighters respect me as do many in the country. I learned a long time ago that there isn’t room for indifference or middle of the road thinking in our profession. You can be nice and still keep your people safe. There is a time to be a dick but always following up with a solution. When I say Dick I mean holding the ground for safety, remembering the ones the died and vowing to be the voice of reason when things go south. Things can go south as long as you are prepared for it.
You are my Angel too showing me wisdom, care and integrity. I owe you and RTS so much for listening and helping me and my own through things I thought were impossible. I am proud of you for your work, for your drive and for your views in life. I am grateful for you and RTS demanding that change occurs. This forum as well as YHFR are changing even the most closed minds. JD allowing a place for change and truth to occur and all of the highly skilled and intelligent contributors here and on YHFR are changing the world. Time can heal wounds once the truth is told.
I am grateful and, with an open heart and I look to the near future for the next chapter in life. I may be a civilian now but with that brings the promise of retribution and accountability for those that continue to make terrible decisions as civil servants with public trust I will expound in a week or so. Thank you Joy, RTS and to all of you here, you all have made a huge difference that will change the world of firefighting and the truth.
Downhillndirect
I had in mind Brian Frisby saving Donut and how mum BR has been about the Yarnell Fire. According to these FOIA reports BR came out of Sesame–were they also setting burns in that area along with the Peeples Valley Dept.? Then you have Brian saving Donut in the Sesame area which might mean his crew was in the Sesame area–although if they left the Shrine area perhaps the crew was at The Ranch House cafe and Frisby was on his way to meet Marsh and Donut lucked out by that action.
Sonny- there is a formula and tool to know exactly who was where in real time and there is a huge corporation I feel has failed the 19 in such way because this all could have been handled but almost seven years later they have not told or shown the loved ones and if the people that were there that day fighting fire want to reach me and sign some releases and be the first to go out to the world their entire June 30, 2013 steps, reach me.
I really know I mentioned Troy in 2019 and that was because one FOIA required me to contact him direct but we don’t need FOIAs – we just need you and GS and MK and BB and AS and JC and TE and CC and RM and PB and HN and some from Congress, Wickenburg, Peeples Valley FD, and Yarnell FD to please be the first to sign the contract then we can show you the tools that you can share to the world. At first, its such a peaceful feeling but then when we realize we are in a suit happy ill intent personal attackers (private and public) then the path heightens to another level but always rise your head above it.
To answer you Sonny- there has been no documents that show BR being involved in any external fires. That would shock me if they did because the way it is flowing it was inexperienced ones and in looking at BR’s profile – to this date it would not add up but then again you pointed out in your email some valid points that I will not share here but yeah the spur roads really faced some unusual confusions that day but when you speak to Mike from Pioneer towing that was out there or hear Buford and his personal account or Wasson (RIP) or Doug (RIP) or Bruce or Howard or Bryan…or others…those people are why I do not walk away like one widow told me I am able to do but she cannot. I won’t because we lost too many and their stories are real.
OK here are some more documents–this first one had plenty of redactions that do not show on my copy-paste but you can imagine this is a full page not much here but maybe attitudes? I have a number of them to follow-
From:
“Deborah Pfingston”
To: “Holly Neill” <
CC: "Darrell Willis"
Harwood,Doug
Date:
Subject:
Attachments:
6/29/2016 10:09:32 AM
Re: lessonsweekHN.rev
wfgi.research.lessons_Vicki.HN,DP.docx
Attached is the wfgi.research document originally from Holly. I add my comments along with Vicki and
Holly. I agree with should be a launch.
We need a press release.
Deborah
On Tue, Jun 28, 2016 at 3:45 PM, Holly Neill wrote:
My comments added to Vicki’s, thanks Vicki!
HN
—
Deborah Pfingston M.Ed.
“Christopher Robin?,” whispered Pooh. “Yes, Pooh Bear?” “I’ll never not remember you… ever.”
From:
To:
Willis,Darrell
“Holly Neill”
BCC: None
Date: 12/14/2013 2:40:15 PM
Subject:
Re: thanks
Thank you Holly,
told me she listened to it last night and cried all night long. I would like to
listen to it so if you could send the link I will listen on Monday. I am doing a fire wise talk today and going
I am with you on this. I wish we could put all the facts together
in chronological order. I was just named in 8 more claims by the homeowners, there is so much
disjointed information out there. Lots of people writing stuff but it is too disjointed. The Az republic states
I told them we needed an anchor. I did but that was at 0600 my last conversation with them. They
made it sound like it was 1600 and didn’t state when I talked to them. Thank you for sharing with me
and I am sorry about your surgery and recovery. I am in your camp on this search for truth and change
for the future. I am close to being gagged due to the suits.
Have a great weekend.
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
On Dec 14, 2013, at 1:56 PM, ”
> wrote:
Darrell,
Thank you. If you have access to the video but choose not to view it, I completely understand why. If
you don’t have access to it and would like to see it, I will send it. It is brutal and gut wrenching. After
hearing it I can understand why any sane person would avoid it.
This is what I wrote this AM after a hysterical evening:
“My main motivation is how rough it was for GMIHC in those last minutes. This is what drives me
forward.
I had major brain surgery on July 6, 1998. Fours years to the date after Storm King, it gave me great
courage to remember what those 14 firefighters endured on their July 6, 1994, and it was the last thing I
thought about before going under anesthesia.
With deliberate effort we can all use GMIHC’s experience on June 30, 2013 for courage in the face of
fear, strength and maximum effort in the face of impossible odds, perseverance, determination and
commitment to our goals, challenges and endeavors in life.
“If They Could Do That, Then I Can Do This…”
“They Had To Endure That, And Therefore I Can Endure This…”
10/1/2018Page 2
It is an attitude that renews the spirit.
We can keep GMIHC alive in us, and climb every mountain with the gift of their help and their leading of
the way for us, into facing the greatest of obstacles.”
Holly Neill
From:
To:
CC:
“Deborah Pfingston”
holly
”
Harwood,Doug
Date:
Subject:
8/29/2016 4:51:24 PM
Re: Please read – article for WFGI
I disagree – with this accident yes it might be a human factors issue but based on photos and a larger
conversation the door is open. I have added a few points and adjusted. In my opinion we cannot
always wait, there is always a new angle.
I will send out the updated article in another email so it does not get lost here. I would like a vote on it (if
possible) by tomorrow morning so it can be posted.
Deborah
On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 10:02 AM, holly839bug wrote:
With this recent development, (below) I’m not sure it’s a good idea to use this incident to rally for
safer vehicles….if it winds up this driver was angry or intoxicated, etc, then causal factors becomes
human factors.
Focus on safer equipment on this incident will take a large back seat to the human factors issues.
This looks like a complicated incident right now, maybe we can keep an eye on how this develops
before diving into the equipment safety issues as main focus points of this terrible accident….my 2
cents…Holly
http://wildfiretoday.com/2016/08/29/charges-filed-after-crash-that-killed-two-firefighters/
Sent from my Verizon 4G LTE smartphone
——– Original message ——–
From: Deborah Pfingston
Holly Neill <
10/1/2018Page 2
Subject: Please read – article for WFGI
Hello,
Below is an article that I would like to post on our website, facebook page and send out to several
news agencies. Please review and send comments, ideas or suggestions. I know this is a quick
turn around but I would like this done by the end of tomorrow. That way our posting is quick.
"Today we lost two young men in Minnesota. One was 25 years of age and the other 23 years of
age. Several of the crew have been hurt in this accident. Families have been affected, their pain
imminence. Not only their personal families but their wildland family. Across this nation the wildland
community is mourning once again.
These two young men lost their lives on a highway. According to the news their truck left the
highway, hit the medium and rolled. At first I prayed, I contacted Juliann Ashcraft, someone who
understands this pain of loss with me, then the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute. I posted the
story for those of you out there that care, will pray and think of these young men hurt and in the
hospital and the families that are now making plans to bury their young men.
This started a conversation, a conversation about the safety of these buggies, the safety of the
drivers, the safety of transportation for our crews. I was appalled at the information I found and the
information that was exchanged amongst people working out in the field. I would say there were
three major discussion points.
One – Should we have an engineer on every roll? An engineer is highly qualified in the vehicle and
hopefully prepared for any crises. But a lot of engines have had these engineers taken out of the
driver's seat based on which state the crew is located, many do not even have their CDL license
requirements. It is different from one agency to the other, from one state to the other, from one type
team to the other type team. What could be a solution-possible regulation?!?
Two – What I think really hit me is the multi-commented "bolt" discussion. I actually had to ask for
clarification I did not know what this discussion truly was about. I found out that the boxes, the cabs
that carry our crews, our young men, our husbands, fathers and sons, are laughingly just barely
bolted to the frame. That it is a common joke to carry bolts in your pockets for when these bolts
break. If you look closely at the photos of this crash, that took the lives of this crew from Michigan,
you will plainly see that the box came off the chassis frame. This looks like a retired USFS buggy
painted white. (We will discuss the fact of retired vehicles being regularly used by other crews at
another time. It is very common for buggies past their age to be sold to another government agency
for them to use.)
Yet, as I have been told the key here is "weight". Between the shot crew and all of their equipment
these buggies are overloaded, putting strain on these bolts. That based on my quick research for
today it seems that a lot, if not most, crashes that happen with crew buggies it is the crew box falling
off. I believe this needs to be looked into and really examined. I do not believe that carrying a few
extra bolts in your pocket is the answer. It does lead to great jokes at fire camp but that's about all.
I did ask for a solution, because I believe that if you see a problem you also must strive for a
solution. A wonderful idea was thrown into our conversation – "mini buggies". A crew would need
three mini buggies plus a sup truck. The mini buggies would hold four crewmembers in the back
plus driver and another crew member upfront. These mini buggies are not top-heavy as are the
10/1/2018Page 3
current USFS buggies, and would hold all of the equipment safely. Eliminating the weight problem
and eliminating bolt problems. Another solution could be crewcab pickup trucks with boxes on the
back only for gear, thus eliminating crew buggies – yes it would add several vehicles to the cost of a
crew. Yet, we are talking about men and women's lives here.
Another problem that surfaced in our conversation was that some of the large buggies go into what
is called "regen mode". If the crew is trying to get out of an area but the buggy is in "regen mode" it
could put the crew way beyond jeopardy because it will not move. If the crew is needing an
immediate move and their buggy is in "regen mode" they can only rely on their feet. That is
unacceptable.
I believe one additional change that needs to happen within the wildland community is the
acceptance of dilapidated equipment, old practices, and the mindset that (forgive me for the slang)
we are the"red headed step children"of the fire community. This is not a badge of honor, this is a
perpetual lie to keep many in their place. The wildland crews that are out fighting fires today are
highly motivated, strong workers, young men and women with high intelligence and a huge sense of
humor, plus a work ethic that keeps them motivated for 12 to 14 hours a day. We need to be their
voice. We have all heard of jobs being threatened if any speak up or stand up. We have all heard
the excuses that this is how it has always been done. Yes there is beautiful value in historic ways,
and wonderful history that we can learn from but it is from tragedy that we learn how to "Be Better".
Wildland crews no longer wear Levi's and white cotton shirts. Let's remember these young men and
their families. Let's help those that are physically and emotionally hurting. Then let's move forward
and get our crews in safe equipment.
Please share your thoughts, your suggestions, your comments. It is through open dialogue and
discussion that we learn and discover. The fire seasons are growing longer, the crews are in more
danger than ever before, and your thought, your idea, may save many. Deborah Pfingston, Co-
Chair Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute"
Back to work on the three part article. I will also send out a quick update on meeting discussions.
—
Deborah Pfingston M.Ed.
"Christopher Robin?," whispered Pooh. "Yes, Pooh Bear?" "I'll never not remember you… ever."
—
Deborah Pfingston M.Ed.
"Christopher Robin?," whispered Pooh. "Yes, Pooh Bear?" "I'll never not remember you… ever."
10/1/2018
“Two full pages were fully redacted here::
From:
To:
“Leah Weckworth”
Harwood,Doug
Laipple,Aaron
“Carmen, Austin”
Hickey,Bill
10/1/2018Page 2
Ralston,Ted
Willis,Jared
[email protected]
Date:
Subject:
8/25/2014 10:08:04 AM
Re: Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters – looking forhelp with logo design and
photos
Hi Guys,
I’m writing to follow up on my last email and to send out another request for logo sketches and photos.
We did receive a few responses, so thanks to all of you that already got back to me. We want to pull
together the logo within a few weeks so we have it ready for an event at the end of September. Anyone
else have logo ideas? The more, the merrier. I understand that not everyone is “artsy” (I’m certainly
not), but I’m assuming there are at least a few more photos of Eric floating around out there. We are
working on the website this week too, so please send any photos you are willing to share as soon as
you are able.
I really appreciate your help on this.
Thanks,
10/1/2018Page 3
Leah
Hey Everyone,
For those of you I have not yet met, my name is Leah Weckworth (formerly Hickman), and I worked on
Granite Mountain for three seasons from 2005-2007.
I have been working with Amanda Marsh and Marvel Steinbrink on a non-profit foundation Amanda
has created to support the families, friends, and loved ones of fallen wildland firefighters. In addition to
supporting families/friends of the fallen, this organization also supports living wildland firefighters that
may be struggling with the hardships associated with the job. This organization will support those in
need following incidents that occur in the 2014 fire season and beyond. In other words, this foundation
will not provide financial assistance to families of the 19; rather, it aims to take the sadness of the loss of
our friends and turn it toward helping others in the greater wildland community. This was very important
to Amanda. Her vision is to carry Eric’s legacy onward, and to continue to be of service. This non-profit
is called the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters.
Now to the part where I’m asking for your help. We are in the early stages of developing the foundation,
and we need to get some of the basics lined out. Namely, we need a logo. Is anyone interested in
designing a logo for the foundation? It would be great to get a bunch of ideas/sketches from anyone
willing to share them. Here are the basic elements we’d like on the logo:
-Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
-Esse Quam Videri
-Some element of the Granite Mountain logo, but we’d like it to be subtle since this foundation isn’t
intended to be “about” Granite Mountain, but about all wildland firefighters
-We’d like it to be a round logo
Amanda also asked me to ask all of you if anyone has photos of Eric on the fireline you’d be willing to
send. He wasn’t very good about taking pictures, and as a result, she has very few photos of him at
work. A few of the photos you send might end up being used on the website. Please email them to me
if you have any.
Also, if anyone has any questions or is interested in being involved in this foundation in any way, please
let me know. We would be so happy to have the help and insight to ensure that we are going about this
in the best way possible. We’re already working on some fundraising ideas and I’d love to get input
from you all as well. You can reach me via email, or feel free to call me at 928-533-9020.
Thanks,
Leah
10/1/2018
From:
To:
“Roxanne Lopez” <
"Holly Neill" <
CC:
Harwood,Doug
Date:
Subject:
Attachments:
2/17/2016 10:04:56 AM
Re: WFGI Brochure
WFGI Brochure.docx
Here is the revised brochure for your review.
Thank you,
Roxy
On Tuesday, February 16, 2016 9:35 PM, Holly Neill wrote:
Here are my suggestions for rewrites on the brochure, in document form instead of on the brochure itself, HNeill
—–Original Message—–
From: Deborah Pfingston <d
To: Roxanne Lopez <
Cc:
Sent: Sat, Feb 13, 2016 11:06 am
Subject: Re: WFGI Brochure
This looks really good. I do have a few edits. I tried to place my changes in red and cross out anything I thought needed to
be removed. I attached the edited version.
If we get this done fairly quickly maybe Darrell can submit these to the printer also!
Have a great weekend,
Deborah
On Fri, Feb 12, 2016 at 2:37 PM, Roxanne Lopez wrote:
Hi all,
I have included the updated brochure for your review. It contains the changes that we discussed at the last meeting,
and I included new material in the page that contains Holly’s quote.
Please let me know what needs to be corrected or changed, and include your thoughts as to what else can make it
10/1/2018Page 2
better.
Thank you,
Roxy.
—
Deborah Pfingston M.Ed.
“Christopher Robin?,” whispered Pooh. “Yes, Pooh Bear?” “I’ll never not remember you… ever.”
From:
To:
Date:
Subject:
Harwood,Doug
“Juliann Ashcraft” <
9/4/2016 7:39:02 AM
RE: Update on the Beartown Firefighters
Juliann,
Thank you so much for going out there and being with the families. Your thoughts on needs of the crew and ways to help are
wonderful. I agree that the facts should be posted and hopefully donations will come.
Thanks again for going out there and being you!
-Doug
From: Juliann Ashcraft [
Sent: Sunday, September 04, 2016 1:35 AM
To:
Holly Neill;
Subject: Update on the Beartown Firefighters
I have done my best with this email to recap my visit to the Beartown Firefighters and provide an update as to their condition. I apologize in
advance for my thoughts being all over the place… it was a lot. To start, I believe the best assistance we can provide them is to raise awareness. By
using our website and other outlets to inform the public as to their condition, their immediate needs, and the horrific loss they've experienced.
hopefully monetary donations will follow.
This account has been established for donations to assist the families of the deceased and injured:
BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTERS RELIEF FUND
Superior National Bank
Account No.
Donations are also being accepted at the Tribal Center:
KBIC BEARTOWN FIREFIGHTERS
Keweenaw Bay Tribal Center
16429 Beartown Rd.
Baraga, MI 49908
(906) 353-6623
Point of Contact: Doreen (906) 201-4957
[email protected]
IMMEDIATE NEEDS:
1. Funeral expenses: The Tribe helped with a lot of the funeral expenses but the mortuary bills need to be paid
2. Medical expenses: These are piling up and will continue for months as they've sustained serious and extensive injuries requiring ongoing medical
attention
3. Loss of pay compensation: 20 man crew all out of work for the remainder of this fire season
4. 17 children belonging to the deceased and injured: 6 children belonging to deceased, 11 children belonging to injured
5. Guidance on how to distribute monies collected in the relief fund. We need to get whomever assisted in the distribution of funds from the charities
involved in Prescott to reach out to: Jennifer Misegan (906) 201-0939. They are desperate for a plan on how best to distribute the funds. I know we
had a CPA (Matt Holdsworth) and a board of others overseeing this process.
The crew was funded by the Bureau of Indian Affairs. They are working around the clock to complete the paperwork necessary for worker's
compensation benefits to kick in. I am not sure, given that none of these men held a "benefited" position, that there will be any additional
compensation available to them and their families above and beyond that.
I think it is important to understand who we are talking about here. These are real people, with real families, just as we are. They are all walking in
shoes that we've worn and know all too well. The loved ones have hollow expressions and dark eyes riddled with sleeplessness and worry. They
sorrow over the loss of those they laid to rest while still trying to remain positive for those fighting to regain strength and mobility. Clarity is
muddled within the paradigm of reverence v. revenge. I witnessed an element of trauma that was foreign to the Yarnell Hill Fire…survivors of the
deadly incident. Wounded brothers. I know that words on an email can not do justice to the pit in my stomach as each time the door opened and
another firefighter would do his best to hobble in to meet me, aided by the assistance of a walker or a cane. Many of whom were involuntarily
moaning in agony over their injuries.
Let me introduce these injured brothers to you…
10/1/2018Page 2
1.
JOSEPH JOSSENS
*
2.
3. DAVE VARLINE
4. SHASHAYWIN “BAGHI” SHELIFOE
5. ROSS JAUKKUN
6. GAVIN LOONSFOOT
10/1/2018Page 3
I was also blessed to meet the girlfriends of both of the deceased and spend some quality time with each of them. Here is a little information on the
men they lost:
1. ALAN “AJ” SWARTZ (25)
2. JAMES “JIMMY” SHELIFOE (23)
I think it's important to connect with the crew and their feelings as best we can. In this instance, their culture is unique and vastly different than what
you and I may be accustomed to. I found their stance on death particularly fascinating and beautiful, given the events that put us in contact.
The crew members belong to the KBIC Ojibwa Tribe. When a tribal member dies, they light a sacred fire on their behalf. This sacred fire burns for
4 days, beginning from the day of their passing. They believe that the spirit of the deceased will remain with them for those 4 days. During that
time, loved ones and tribal members will come to the fire which is surrounded with cedar, grab a pinch of tobacco and throw it into the fire. This is
their way of telling the spirit of the deceased that it is okay to go. The deceased begins their journey west. At the conclusion of the 4 days, and with
the guidance of those throwing tobacco into the sacred fire, they arrive at the holy tree with an eagle resting at the top. The eagle is surrounded by
the deceased’s spiritual colors. At that time, the spirit of the deceased will have the opportunity to tell the eagle what good things they’ve done in
their lives. With that, they are welcomed into the land of their ancestors. Thus, the KBIC Ojibwa Tribe believes that death is the start of a new
journey. When death is lingering, rather than saying “on their death bed”, they say “getting ready to travel”.
I will also note…they believe that if the spirit of the deceased senses worry and contention, they will not rest.
It is in that same spirit that I hope you will read the remainder of this email…
There has been much discussion over the past few days pertaining to the cause and crashworthiness of the incident. I have purposely remained out of
these conversations so I wouldn't put my foot in my mouth when meeting those who know the facts that would trump my assumptions. Here are
the answers to a few of those questions, directly from the source…
Driver Mike Johnson DID NOT have his CDL. Further, it was so apparent that he was under the influence of drugs that crew
member Joseph Jossens attempted several times to take the keys from him so he couldn’t drive. Joseph recalls Mike saying,
“Just one more rest stop”. Drugs and alcohol have been an ongoing issue for this crew. After the last fire assignment, two of the
crew members were let go for drinking while on the fire line. As a matter of fact, Jimmy and AJ (the two deceased) hadn't been
on the 3 previous fires. They were only asked to return to the crew for this assignment because of the ineligibility of these
crewmen.
On the other side of the coin…
Their crew buggies are 2005 Internationals. They have full seat belts in the cab and lap seat belts in the back. It is a shared
feeling among the crew members that the two components of the crew carrier should not have separated. Whether due to
inadequate bolts, too heavy of a load, or sheer demolition due to operator error, the chassis falling off of the buggy was cause for
fatalities and substantial injuries.
10/1/2018Page 4
There is a definite take away and lesson learned here. We just need to be cautious in how we present the information. I believe
there is a tasteful, professional, and informed way to present both sides without dismissing the other. Had either one of the
components not occurred (human error/mechanical inadequacy), the outcome could have been different. Lives may have been
spared. The girlfriends of both the deceased are friends with Mike, the driver of the vehicle. They believe he is a good man who
made a bad choice and should spend his time in prison paying for the consequences of those decisions. I got the feeling that no
one in that room wishes to crucify him NOR did they wish to let him off the hook. If the WFGI stands for "accountability" as
one of our platforms, then our words ought to not let him off the hook either. In a similar fashion, we stand for "change". What
changes can we make to prevent a similar occurrence in the future? We can not make personal life choices for these crewmen.
We can educate, regulate hiring procedures, hold mandatory drug tests, but ultimately…we can not eliminate the human factor.
We can, however, advocate for safer vehicles if we feel as a board that there are safer alternatives. That may be a place to start
within our investigation department. As a resource…
For investigation purposes ONLY (they do not want their information released)…the man and woman who helped the injured firefighters
out of the cab of the truck:
I suggest we get the noncontroversial items in this email posted ASAP to encourage donations for these men and their families.
Thank you for trusting me to represent our foundation in this visit.
Juliann
With permission, posting this for our long-lost friend Downhillndirect (DND) who has been plagued for several days by the “awaiting moderation” monster. So saith DND by text: “It’s the one I sent you and if you thought it was good then I am happy with it being sent I appreciate it.”
Joy,
There are no coincidences in life….RTS and I both agreed to that after we re-connected in July of 2018. I held onto more anger, sorrow and pain than anyone should’ve until I met GS in one of the most beautiful towns in Arizona. I have always loved the Mogollon Rim and the features in each town it runs through. I remember working on a few ranches as a young man in Skull Valley, Williamson Valley and one near Yarnell. I was never a real Cowboy, nor did I rodeo or work extensively with cattle like some of my buddies did their whole lives. I did however get the opportunity to really see parts of Arizona that most will never see. Living there provided a healing force that I can’t explain but, I know that you, RTS and allot of friends and family would agree it is a special place. I met RTS in 1996 on the “Three Peaks Fire” just east of Roosevelt lake. I had the great opportunity to work for three of some of the best Leaders the IHC world has ever produced. They asked RTS to sit with us and share his amazing fire behavior knowledge with all of us. He went into great detail and had everyone’s attention as he took us through a few fires he and his crew were on that year and in 1995. He was kind, sharp and spoke with strong Leadership presence. That quality sadly has been watered down to the point that people are afraid to speak up strongly on fires as the HR tent is ready to pounce on anyone with tender scruples. Being in-charge and Leading is the trait that has been almost taken away from the fire service in some places. Group think and fearing that someone may not take decisive, sharp and direct orders has injured some of the culture of “Old School”. The “Old School” I speak of is exactly this, Strong Leadership, morals, values, dedication, TRUTH. It is also Followship, leading up the right way and basing all of your decisions on a simple formula.
The formula that has kept so many safe and free from injury, near miss or death is this. Take L.C.E.S. add the 10 standard fire orders (not suggestions) and observe the 18 Watch-outs form as the day or night progresses. Yes the 18’s will pop up on every fire. As they do or as you apply risk/hazard analysis the indicators that show each firefighter what could or will happen next will guide us through an incident safely. I applied this to any type of emergency call we were on. Being a sound and strong Leader means that you are a student of fire. You must immerse yourself in all aspects of the job you are being tasked to do. Knowing your people and their strengths, or weaknesses makes your team strong. Setting realistic goals and trigger-points and STICKING TO THEM is a huge part of LEADERSHIP.
Knowing when to say “No” and doing nothing is doing something. Sitting in a true safety zone until conditions change to realistically re-engage is smart firefighting. Denying an assignment because it violates the ROE’s is responsible leadership. Attempting to safely mitigate hazards utilizing the ROE’s is a good thing as long as you are prepared for the possibility of extreme fire behavior. Depending on aircraft that can be quickly taken away for a new start that threatens structures for example is bad business. If we truly look back at the fires that killed firefighters it will lead you to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines. On an initial attack fire or on a campaign fire not adhering to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines is madness. Allowing the “Moment” or other visual factors to blind you from thorough scouting and safe plans execution has led so many to devastation.
What I just said was a gift given to me and to many others. Some would say that there are too many “Rules” to memorize and that fatality fires “Just happen”. It is not luck that a lot of firefighters go unharmed and retire knowing they did their best to Lead and follow. Why would we lower the bar because some say there are too many rules to memorize? Why would anyone go pubic on forums or on heavily visited websites and say that we can not avoid firefighter fatalities? I look at Mr. RTS and Mr. Gary Olson and know they applied sound judgement based upon their assessments based upon tangible and realistic ROE’s. Long careers leading firefighters, assuring that their people had the best training, opportunities and safety each day. There is a huge difference between a Leader and a supervisor. A leader assumes all responsibility and will never ask or put their people in known harms way or ask them to do something they wouldn’t do. A supervisor knows only the position and not the dedication it requires to keep their firefighters safe. A leader will draw a line between themselves and their firefighters. A leaders voice is heard, taken seriously and is respected for their actions, not words. As I move onto another chapter in my Firefighting career I pray for the new firefighters that only know what they are told. I hope that they are expected to learn the ROE’s, stick to them and become students of fire. There isn’t room for anything less in my opinion.
Accountability is a 14 letter word that eludes so many. I pray that the fire service in general has an uprising of true Leadership and the culture of “the middle of the fence” is dismantled. OK, enough on the equation.
Joy I am so blessed to have gotten to be a part of your life, however small or big it has been, you and RTS have provided a conduit for healing. For years I sat wondering why the truth wasn’t being made publicly known about the loss of the men. I wondered why after the SKM Fire, true subject matter experts like Mr. Putnam were being excluded from exposing the truth so that we could truly make a shift in finite safety. I do not consider authors or magicians to be the final word on fatality fires or firefighting. I do believe that if you have a position of power that allows the truth to be told, tell the truth. Diverting from it loads the revolver for the next generation to fail Allowing people to duck accountability at all levels has created a very destructive atmosphere. It is no secret that on all of the fatality fires during my two and a half decades had individuals at all levels that dodged accountability.
I believe that you and the many co-authors of your/their work will bring truth to light. I am not surprised to read the factual information that you have provided after years of hard work. I know your love for the men that passed away on June 30th 2013. I know that God gave you a gift that has finally helped expose the reality of bad choices. It is there for any firefighter with a pulse to see that the ROE’s were violated on all counts. There is a giant gap between structural firefighting and Wildland firefighting. Doing both without a solid foundation in both is a recipe for disaster. Pride is a double edged sword. Being proud of the excellent job one may have done is good. Allowing Pride to drive a decision is deadly. We lose more fires than we catch, that is more than OK. Weather is a variable we will never control, accepting that is OK too. We can control how we employ tactics based upon the topographical arena we are presented with. The same goes with how we use fire, do structure protection and time of day chosen to attack a fire.
I was on the “Old Fire” and the “Grand Prix” fire years ago. we lost thousands of homes because we couldn’t safely engage. It was a hard pill to swallow but in the end we saved more homes and lives, including the firefighters on both incidents. There isn’t a home including my own worth one human beings life. It is hard to deny or to disengage from homes that aren’t savable. I have shed tears and tossed chunks over the loss of homes we were asked to protect. Not one SGS has belittled me or our strike teams for making safe choices. It is hard to not be a moth to a flame but assessing hazards is our responsibility. Having a solid foundation of Wildland firefighting in the urban interface in multiple fuels types is a must. Envisioning the worst case scenario at all times is our responsibility.
Not having a plan for when the “Shit hits the fan” is insanity. Having a true escape route(s) to safety that are timed for the slowest person or apparatus based upon the worst thing that could occur is one of the many reasons we lose firefighters. Early on after YHF, I took the information presented and weighed the ROE’s against the end event that occurred. just like you I was blasted for talking about the events that led to the loss of life and friends. I have no doubt and share the same opinion as DW in regards to the recorded frequencies and how people were or were not interviewed. If we look at the actions of our fellow comrades from a ROE standpoint, LCES and the Downhill Indirect guidelines were enough to stop the descent. The flank of fire shown in the Mackenzie video would be enough for me personally to asses all actions on the worst case scenario. I have never felt like a piece of “Shit” for sitting in the cold black during the “Prime time” for active and extreme fire behavior.
After working in the heat all day and as the fire transitioned into a very active backing flank fire (with T-cells) in the immediate area of influence, the men were tired, most likely low on water and energy. Blood sugars were most likely low affecting the decisions of many people on the entire fire. The IC and both OPS chiefs have a responsibility to be the ones to call a time out early. When trigger points hit, expected or not the Command presence must be there to order all of the firefighters to disengage and stand by in their safety zones. I get that I am quarterbacking this. But, I can’t count the times where my leaders have called time out regardless of the values at risk and we sat safely in a good safety zone. There is a huge difference between a Safety Zone and a Deployment Zone, I will not discuss this as we know how it ended.
Joy, you hike, you also go to school to learn as much as you can about firefighting in the Wildland. You and Sonny saw everything from a first hand account and as adults that know your mountains I know what you saw struck you as insane. I agree with you both and if I was an IC, OPS or a DIVS on a fire you saw in an area you knew well I would’ve picked your brain on everything. Heck, our ROE’s tell us to talk to the locals for intel, roads, two tracks and the weather we can expect. Being dismissed ultimately set a pace that put the entire fire behind the power curve. You and other locals were denied the opportunity to help, look at day one and so on.
I appreciate you and I am ashamed that you, RTS and so many have been treated like crap for so long. You both are not alone as you are very aware the shift in perception and truth. Your hard work and dedication to truly honor the fallen is Leadership. It is not disrespectful to replay what occurred or to demand all of the documentation as a student of fire or as a tax payer. Your gift has put you closer to what is real and what was presented. If I were to fall from a LODD I would want all of the information to be made clear for all to see so that my fellow firefighters could learn and grow as leaders. I know of one man that perished that lived by the same code.
It is a shame to have asked honest and direct questions to one of the people tasked to honestly report the findings of YHF and to be banished for it. Tugging on the tail of the snake sometimes means a bite but, I am only stronger for it. I have never been a yes person but my firefighters respect me as do many in the country. I learned a long time ago that there isn’t room for indifference or middle of the road thinking in our profession. You can be nice and still keep your people safe. There is a time to be a dick but always following up with a solution. When I say Dick I mean holding the ground for safety, remembering the ones the died and vowing to be the voice of reason when things go south. Things can go south as long as you are prepared for it.
You are my Angel too showing me wisdom, care and integrity. I owe you and RTS so much for listening and helping me and my own through things I thought were impossible. I am proud of you for your work, for your drive and for your views in life. I am grateful for you and RTS demanding that change occurs. This forum as well as YHFR are changing even the most closed minds. JD allowing a place for change and truth to occur and all of the highly skilled and intelligent contributors here and on YHFR are changing the world. Time can heal wounds once the truth is told.
I am grateful and, with an open heart and I look to the near future for the next chapter in life. I may be a civilian now but with that brings the promise of retribution and accountability for those that continue to make terrible decisions as civil servants with public trust I will expound in a week or so. Thank you Joy, RTS and to all of you here, you all have made a huge difference that will change the world of firefighting and the truth.
Downhillndirect
Posted on behalf of Downhillndirect (DND) with his permission at 4:56 PM on January 17, 2020
Well on the BR situation about setting burns- It was reported that communications were faulty and poor–supposedly Marsh and company were not at all expected to be where they were and with things as they were confused that day with managers leaving and new ones coming in, it would stand to reason that BR could easily have been ordered to burn to protect Yarnell and the Shrine area. They would not have know that a crew would be putting themselves in harms way and I would believe with Marsh’s attitude, even if he knew there was a Shrine burn in effect he would say we can beat it, bring the boys down. Remember Willis had the idea that wild land fire fighters are special in that they can glide through that brush like a ghost that we had a hell of a time navigating. Willis had stated ordinary people could not get through that type brush, but the wild land fire fighter could. Well he failed on that count because they did not.
So yes, with Gary’s post, that is what we do clean line and burn–almost a given and with the winds, orders, and ideas that the wind won’t change it would seem to me that yes, the chances of BR doing a burn would be likely.
It might be also why they were ordered to mum even though had they done a burn no fault of theirs that Marsh would do the unthinkable.
About the BR and a burn–I know Dr. Ted does not post here but he has indicated that he has a lot more inside information he will let loose under oath. Of course the Judges, wanna be Fire God types that ran that fire will do everything possible to keep him quiet. I suspect that he will reveal who was doing the burns and I have to believe it was several crews there.
Just looking at the situation as I knew it, it would be the proper thing to do. However, after I ordered the burn I would not allow anyone to challenge it by getting their crew off the black and into a choked canyon of manzanita where there would be no escape route.
I have to believe these burns were going on but despite that some Jefe decided that he wanted the men down in Yarnell and put out the order to Marsh and here they come despite the elevated danger of the burns. Good god it was enough from what we were seeing not to go there just with the fire as it was. Fire coming up hill and three miles away can get you in less than ten minutes in a wind like that. Coming off that two track into the trap below would take longer than ten minutes. Just to get to where the men died required the investigator Bret 20 minutes with everything burned away for a clear path and the fact that he was a long legged marathon runner every year. His parner Brent and Joy were another ten minutes getting there with a nasty fall for Brent causing him to limp along.
Well so much for wild land fire fighters being able to slip through that Bear Wallow brush.
I would like to hear from Gary, RTS, DNA, Woodsman and others here on those thoughts especially the likelihood of BR doing a Burn along with others. I do know there was a burn going in the Shrine area since I did see the video that was redacted–unless those guys doing the drip torches were just setting fires for practice.
Right now with Joy giving us FOIA information, you know the fire community and others interested in the Fire Deaths of the GMHS crew, this site has to be getting plenty of hits. We who have been involved certainly hope that those viewing this site add to it-especially if you in anyway had any involvement or know about things you were told or witnessed.
It is OK to post anonymous and once you post one time then your posts are instant so in the beginning you might have to wait a spell.
For instance, WTKTT has posted since the beginning with much valuable insight and wisdom. To this day I can’t tell you where he lives, his phone number or even his name. I think he might be a computer at times but surely not since computers don’t have emotions and he expresses a few at times. Frustration at not getting more facts is one.
Joy and I were witnesses, and Joy has never let up getting information and facts. Please help her if you have more to add. I don’t know if Jesus will reward you or not but I suspect he would if you join in the revelation of truth. If your god is any good he will be pleased at doing the right thing–helping to understand the reasons 19 young men are dead and thereby opening the path to remedy the sickness that caused the deaths.
I would like to think the infection is not rampant, your input may convince me otherwise. Thanks if you should join in the search for truth and answers toward the solution.
I should have mentioned WTKTT is the abbreviation for Wants to Know the Truth for anyone new to this site. Don’t we all?
RTS–One of the things that caused me to join Joy in my small capacity was the fact that I saw that on June 16, 2013 that area where the men died and that half acre that Amanda and company connived to control were actually sealed and documented as a half section with the highest of wild fire restriction due to the danger in that area. Then after Joy and I reviewed the document with other witnesses, the document within a week disappeared. Shit, this is just like the CIA shredding documents implementing them in the Iran-Contra affair and we are talking about a wild fire. Unbelievable that the wild fire gods would go to such lengths to cover up their dirty work. But that is how badly they did not want the truth known.
Joy,
Thank you for stepping up and courageously revealing the Public Records that you have told us about for years. These PFD PRs are pretty amazing and disturbing.
Check these excerpts out from the book ” Crisis of Conscience ”
I prefer to use the term “truth teller.” The author is talking about the dilemma of when it comes time to tell the truth or protect your family, friends, and loved ones.
The author wrote: “it remains one of the central mysteries of [truth telling] and of human nature. … because of their aversion to hurting fellow humans has somehow been activated. … whether someone will choose justice over loyalty .. .” (emphasis added)
“Today in America … the widespread sense of uncertainty and fear caused by political polarization, … threats (both real and imagined) … all accelerate the emotive urgency of the choice between justice and loyalty, between hopeful morality and unquestioning obedience [to authority] . Most of us, at some level, are being forced to decide whether to speak truth, at our hazard, or to repeat the lie and become a part of the problem . [Truth tellers] press each of us with this question: Which side are you on? ” (p. 228) (emphasis added)
We certainly know which side those that are still placing the truth (and lies) out there about the YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy are on. And lying by ommision to “protect my Brothers” or to avoid it because of the guilt-laden “speak ill of the dead.” It is still lying.
Joy’s PFD Records Request releases have shown us which side many of these people are on. Hopefully, this will galvanize more to come forward and reveal what they have in the form of videos, audios, and anecdotes of what they saw, experienced, heard, … whatever it is, in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area likely firing operation.
Take the higher ground. Sop lying by omission and tell the truth.
Hear! Hear! I couldn’t agree more with my old friend and colleague! Thank you Joy…for being you and all you have done and are continuing to do to find the truth! You are…persistent and indomitable to say the least.
Another one of Joy’s PFD records requests releases. This one from PFD Willis to YFD Light about the USFS Washington Office “Visitors”:
“From: Light, Dennis
To: Willis Darrell
Date: 9/10/2014 2:42:43 PM
Subject: RE: Visitors
Thanks for background and I look forward to the opportunity to meet with them. DL
From: Willis, Darrell Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 2:12 PM To: Light, Dennis Subject: RE: Visitors
I have passed it on to Pete Gordon. As a way of background for Tom Harbour, I have know (sic) him personally for about 15 years. He is the Fire Director (Fire Chief) of the Forest Service based in Washington DC.
“He has been impressed with Prescott’s proactive approach to wildfire mitigation and response and even went so far as to say their crews should be modeled after GMIHC. Are you friggin’ kidding me?
I will agree that the Prescott area fuels mitigation projects are some of the best in the US, however, using the GMHS as a “model” for the Federal (or any) HS Crews?
Yeah, right. Let’s use them as a model after they teach their HS Crewmembers that the Fire Orders are “ hillbilly ” and that ‘ no wildland firefighters are satisfied sitting in the black while the fire progresses ‘ or ‘ structure protection comes first, firefighter safety is a last resort ‘ or ‘ I would have followed them blindfolded, I’d have been right there with them ‘ or ‘ this was an accident, just one of those things that happens ‘ or ‘ this was the best possible place in this bowl to deploy their fire shelters ‘ or soooooo many other Prescott Way or GMHS-isms.
“Bill Van Bruggen is the Fire Director (Fire Chief) for R-3, USFS, New Mexico, Arizona and part of Texas and Oklahoma based out of Albuquerque. I have known Bill for about 10 years due to Incident Management Team participation.
“Both are great guys and they both have spent time at Station 7 as well as taking a walk in Yarnell with me after the tragedy. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief Prescott Fire Department
From: Light, Dennis Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 1:18 PM To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: RE: Visitors
“Darrell, Thanks for the heads up. I’d like to make some time to meet and greet Tom and Pete on September 18th during their visit to Station 7 and perhaps join them for lunch if one is planned.
“Likewise before the USFS folks from the Washington office get down to the business element of their time in town I’d like to extend them a welcome along with “encouragement” for hosting the conference locally. I’ve added the 18th and 24th to my calendar as tentative at this point. DL
From: Willis, Darrell Sent: Wednesday, September 10, 2014 9:51 AM To: Light, Dennis Cc: Willis, Darrell
Subject: Visitors
“Chief Light, Over the next two weeks we will be hosting some high profile visitors at Station7. Below is a synopsis of the events and attendees: September12. 1500-1800. Yarnell Hill Memorial Committee, Representative Fann, Senator Tobin, Mayor Kuykendall, Chief Ben Palm, Amanda Marsh, retired Chief Friajo, myself and a number of others will be holding an initial meeting to discuss the Yarnell Hill Memorial project in Yarnell.
Page 1 10/1/2018
“September 18. 1100-1400. USFS Fire and Aviation Director WO, Tom Harbour and USFS R-3 Fire Director, Pete Gordon and a handful of others will be visiting Station 7 to see the Belt Buckle display and taking a tour of the fence project at 201 South McCormick. Ted will be hosting the group. Tom, Bill and I are personal friends and they are in town with meetings with the PNF. I will be on my way to Colorado Springs.
September 24. 1200-1700. A group from the USFS, Washington Office will be in town and will visit Station 7 and myself. Their main interest is to determine the possibility of holding the 2015 International Wildfire Conference in Prescott.
Darrell Willis, Division Chief Prescott Fire Department
Visitors … as if they are some type of UFO aliens that Sonny talks about. Schmoozing and brown nosing and sucking up. And why not. They paid for the SAIT and the SAIR
I will continue to post these FOIA reports I have obtained from Joy. They are public information that needs to be made available to help understand the situation that killed the men and since the death of 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots is a monumental affair–the public deserves to know what was going on and what the public records have about it. The players have put themselves in the public light, so their actions are up to public scrutiny. Make your own personal judgements and if any additional information comes up and I have it, you certainly know that I never withhold anything pertinent that might
get at the truth.
“joy C”
Willis,Darrell
12/19/2014 2:08:10 PM
Re: Can u reach donut and phil?
thank you
that helps
you see I have to figure out who locally are dramatics and who really are seeking help and try to make
them understand things and that will be very helpful-
I could personally care less if this town had a hummer or not but I guess when people who lost their
homes still with no home due to bs…those I can have empathy for who see the hummer and think what
they do in their minds but I rather they don’t have this wildland truck unless they had qualified people to
even be out there—at that point contracting out seems the way since Prescott has a few—contract
them—
good information
thank you
On Fri, Dec 19, 2014 at 1:50 PM, Willis,Darrell wrote:
I am not sure what a “dry” 4X4 brush truck is but I would think it would be a 3⁄4 to 1 ton pick-up with a slide-in
pump unit that is self-contained, carries 125 gallons of water, has a small pump with hose and the basic wildland
tools to contain small fires. The Prescott Fire Department has three of these and they are very useful in getting
into tight places quickly and keep fires small. I really have never heard of the “dry” term used. As far as the fire
instructor goes, the State Fire Marshall’s office certifies instructors and they have to go through some classes to
get certified to teach many classes. The NWCG wildland classes require specific qualifications and classes to
teach the classes depending upon the classes and the complexity of the class. Hope this helps. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
10/1/2018Page 2
From: joy C [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, December 19, 2014 1:37 PM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: RE: Can u reach donut and phil?
I think it would be great
And you have a loving Holiday too
What is a 4 wheel drive dry brush truck?
I helped directly the folks here and due to J Warren and her awful ways she publicly messes up my
town of Congress school and fire board meeting that I don’t want to be that person when I am trying
to build togetherness in Yarnell but this chief Ben Palm has me selling off assets to hire on more
resources because this is not Vail CO or Scottsdale just Yarnell and that donated hummer isan eye
sore to locals and I keep hearing they want a dry brush truck vs this donated hummer needing
brand new tires. I cannot get a hike in lately without being stopped by a local asking me since I have
been thevoice to help them but I have not yet been able to get a handle on it so finally GE led me to
a lawyer who wins against state andfeds so I am blessed to see the support there and I did what the
lawyer said..attended the yfd meeting and publicly posted it and there were concerns how a kid is
chief…he was a paramedic emt than we are hearing he is letting go of firefighters and hiring ones he
use to work for so now I am being asked to be the voice and I told them I would think on it because
if I do it has to be fact based well documented and may have to involve the wealth of family to assist
and that is not easy for me because many times they offered but I told them God has it handled yet I
have to do somemore research and whomever felt yarnell after that horrific weekend needs a kid as
a chief that has no handson experience just not good. There was talk the chiefplans to have classes
in town. Next area I need to research because people want me to find out if he is qualified to run a
class. My family offered me a free get the hell out of yarnell pass for r and r but I can’t knowing the
kids and the loved ones of the gmhs and all affected need answers still and well we meet soon with
another account that supports what you said public so I need their video and photos so people can
stop their theory on your day. Holly Neill gave me an excellent recommendation on you but she also
is the one caught in a lie one hike and I’m a straight shooter and I prefer to get documented fact
base accounts and so proud they support you to date…because the people so far do not know you.
Joy A Collura
On Dec 19, 2014 12:51 PM, “Willis,Darrell” wrote:
Joy, sounds like an exciting adventure. Since both Phil and Brendan do not work for the City I would have to
defer to them to see if they want to participate. I will make contact with them and give them your information.
Have a very Blessed and Merry Christmas and blessing to you for 2015. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
10/1/2018Page 3
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
From: joy C [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, December 18, 2014 10:30 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: Can u reach donut and phil?
After my foggy hail walk and hike yesterday I have for a few months been in negotation talks with
the history channel producer and I finally called ycso Dwight D’Evelyn and left message but I am
going to discuss with the producer what I would love to do is similar to national geographic ultimate
survival Alaska yet I want the Yarnell hikers go up against ycso Sgt Ashby and deputy Brickner and
up against Yarnell Fire Dept Chief Ben Palm and the current yfd firefighter blonde her name starts
with C and the other team with Gmhs Donut and Phil Mando. I know because we took PhilMando
that he is the elite and the one to beat but I know mine and Sonny’s survival skills are very strong
and we have endurance as we hike from Prescott to here so would you be game in a sit down talk
with history channel for such a nation viewed challenge?
Joy A Collura
History Channel is coming either way but to me and all my life challenges I would love to do that
against all I mentioned…
10/1/2018
BCC: None
Date: 11/21/2014 9:58:30 AM
Subject:
Attachments:
RE: New update to yhf that i said i would send as i get it
image002.jpg
image001.png
I like them
They been at it a few hours
I leave them alone
$300 for .28 acre to clear out the old yhf crap
I am having fun making my nativity for my baby mud jesus I make
I told Andrew Williams he can post a huge defensible sign in the yard and contact information
To me alot of locals need to be educated on defensible space.
I literally did not have $300 and Sonny and my husband were not gonna so I sold some ammo and
Andrew is starting with the$150 i only had and as soon as I get the rest I will pay him
Fernanda wanted a book chance
But noone is gonna get an exclusive
All i do is share as life unfolds how God leads it
Who is Elizabeth Nowicki
She sure seems to be giving me a hard time
She had to screw with me the day I passed out and was in ni mood ffor female energy
Well have a good one
Back to my nativity
On Nov 21, 2014 9:10 AM, “Willis,Darrell” wrote:
Joy,
Thank you for the information. The Lewis Crew is a good crew and they will work hard, I know that from
my interactions on defensible space jobs in Prescott and on fire assignments. My wife and I provided
them with a dinner a number of years ago when they helped us out with the Arizona Wildfire Academy.
Great group I am sure you will be happy with their work. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
10/1/2018Page 2
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
From: joy C [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Friday, November 21, 2014 8:59 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: RE: New update to yhf that i said i would send as i get it
This is Joy. What is strange is I placed ad on craigslist and today who is doing our paid defensible
space but the lewis crew..got quite afew here right now…tell me about God…I had a few answer ad and
what’s the chances to have such fine folks and they can report to u I do not bother them and let them
do their job but could u imagine if john dougherty knew or any of thr silly media…they will later say how
come u never invited us but the crew is doing a job so when mayor and Tommy Meredith come by we
made room for that 36ft rv of theirs..okay going outside
On Nov 21, 2014 8:41 AM, “Willis,Darrell” wrote:
Mr. Gilly,
Thank you for your comments and the pictures. I appreciate the fact that you and Joy continue to seek
answers to the reasons our firefighters lost their lives on June 30, 2013 and all you have done to
provide information to get to the bottom of the this. I am committed to the truth no matter what the
outcome is, that is what the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew would want as well as Eric
Marsh. So others would avoid another tragedy like this. Thank you for including me with your
information. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
10/1/2018Page 3
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
From: sonny gilly [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Thursday, November 20, 2014 10:49 PM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: New update to yhf that i said i would send as i get it
Spoke from.3:45-9:45pm 11-20-14 with retired 2 years firefighter who fought the fire from june 30-july
4th.
He has business cards from high ups and worked direct on sickles rd
..double a ranch…etc
He has spoke to us in great length and it complimented Willis and Yuma Lewis crew account except
nowhere was this mentioned and we’d like more information if any of.you heard this?
He worked on hoses and hot spots.
He hheard many radio communications
This one we never heard about:
Were taking shelter said three times aaand on third said were takking our shelters now and 2-4
seconds later said twice in panicking voice we’re covering up. Yuma captain ran to willis and said did u
hear that last call and willis said no and he ran to truck and got on his cellphone
Enclosing a couple pics he shared.
From:
To:
Date:
Subject:
Firehouse.com
McElwee,Travis
6/29/2018 9:47:05 AM
‘Obese’ Firefighter Reinstated l Remembering Yarnell Hill l Video: Arrest at TX Fire
Newsday | View online
June 29, 2018
TODAY’S TOP NEWS
Board Prevents Firing of ‘Obese’ MA
Firefighter
Lawrence Fire Chief Brian Moriarty had filed an
involuntary retirement petition because he said the
250-pound firefighter was unfit for duty.
A Personal Tragedy
Learning from Yarnell
Hill
Amanda Marsh, widow of Eric
Marsh, shares her story of the
Yarnell Hill tragedy.
Brad Mayhew offers training
exercises for developing
yourself and your crew for the
future.
10/1/2018Page 2
PA Chief: Smoke Alarms
Saved 10 Residents
from Fire
Smoke alarms alerted 10
occupants of second and third
floor apartments to an early morning fire in a York City
apartment building.
Five Dead in MD
Newspaper Office
Shooting
A shooter killed five people and
wounded several others at the
offices of the Capital Gazette newspaper in Annapolis
on Thursday afternoon.
NY Firefighter Pleads
Not Guilty to Arson
Charges
FF Files Harassment
Suit Against CA City,
Firefighters
Central Islip firefighter Stephen
Hernandez is charged with five
counts of arson and tampering with evidence in a
series of fires.
Jon Priolo said he was
subjected to numerous
comments and jokes during a five-year period by San
Bruno FD colleagues.
MEDIA CENTER
Industry Insights: Aerial Firefighting Tech
– Drones and Mountable Thermal
Imagers
Jason Messerschmidt addresses how aerial firefighting
apparatuses can help you see through smoke from
every angle.
Man Arrested at TX House Fire
Harris County deputies arrested the man who told
firefighters a woman was tied up inside the burning
home.
Firefighter Injured at
Brush Fire in CA
Homeless Camp
A National City firefighter fell into
a hole and was burned during a
brush fire that started in a Bonita homeless camp.
10/1/2018Page 3
10/1/2018Page 4
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I have passed it on to Pete Gordon. As a way of background for Tom Harbour, I have know (sic) him personally for about 15 years. He is the Fire Director (Fire Chief) of the Forest Service based in Washington DC.
“He has been impressed with Prescott’s proactive approach to wildfire mitigation and response and even went so far as to say their crews should be modeled after GMIHC. Are you friggin’ kidding me?
From the RTS post. Whew–talk about dangerous thinking. These men need to be exposed to the wild land fire fighting community–after knowing the facts of how the safety rules were flaunted and the crew treated like so much meat to be sacrificed we certainly would hope these men have a good upbraiding. Are they believing that the rules they claim to espouse are to be disregarded? Mothers don’t let your kids grow up to be wild land fire fighters if they go to work under those bosses–
But the above quote from Tom Harbour, Fire Director of the FS based in Washington tells me the good ole boy rule is in effect. You can do no bad in that work as long as you smell the ass above you and play like you enjoy it. I have your back–even if you commit murder attitude–which is what we are seeing at Yarnell involving the deaths of the GMHS crew.
I can bet Mr. Harbour will gladly dump the agent orange look alike toxic retardant in your back yard as well–I wonder how much he allows near his residence. And I wonder what pleasures he enjoys at the expense of the retardant company meetings–fine wines, the girls are there, and all the old cronies toasting to their success at dropping millions of tons of retardant on the lands. You can bet there is no discussion of their toxic effects but something more on the line how are your stock profits looking?
What a scam of public tax dollars that we allow these toxic dumps to continue despite their killing of people, hundreds of thousands of fish and creating environmental problems that are to the point of a threshold that will be insurmountable
People only look at the damage of the retardants–certainly they are extreme against human health, aquatic life, escpecially the fish that die immediatly, and the dead ocean zones. But that is only a part of the problem–the actual mining of these phosphates and the added chemicals are reeking havoc with the environment, both aquatic and flora life,ruining fresh water sources and killing thousands of fish from seepage out of the mines and mine dumps.
The EPA in Florida for example is not saying a word about the danger of phosphate itself. Instead they are saying their concern is the low level radiation. It is not the low level radiation that has lined the rivers and beaches with hundreds of thousands of dead fish friends. So you can see the Monsanto’s of the world and the mining interests have bought the EPA people off. It is damn sad when EPA knows damn well it is the phosphates and nitrates creating the ocean dead zones, killing fish, wrecking the environment and having disastrous effect on human health. But the public is buying the low level talk about radiation.
They must believe the public is a pack of idiots. But then with the main media looking the other way and giving us Trump the Chump stories instead of what really should be our concerns, what can I say?
The other part–the people’s hard earned dollars that go to taxes support these mine clean ups that EPA instigates. Do you believe that these chemical and mining companies pay for the messes they make in the environment and ruining of the oceans and water tables? Hell no, it is the American Tax Payer that follows up with the billions needed to clean up after these giant profiteers. Isn’t life grand when 25-50% of your paycheck goes to taxes and much toward the burden of mopping up the corporation messes?
Certain the American worker must have that extra job and even if he/she/etc. goes up the scale because of it he extra job–he/she/etc.. is punished by higher scale taxes. Yet the corporations pay few taxes and you can bet Trump the Chump won’t be going after these corporations for more liability for the damages they cause.
Has Trump fessed up to what he pays–rather does not pay in Taxes? He has lawyers instead keeping his reports secret. Yet his multitude of Golf Courses are a detriment to the environment and a waste of water resources that are already scarce–most especially in the desert areas such as Phoenix, Vegas and the Arabian areas–but now also in the eastern areas where populations are dense.
But in all fairness–either side Trump or the Trump adversaries in Politics (Likely Bloomberg since he has more money than Trump) are just another version of the Corporation politics that rule the States and now even the World policies.
I see the Bloomberg photos of him in a working man’s clothes–hugging the kids, and I have to say the multi-millions have the psychological part down pat on how to convince the public. The World Corporations and World Bankers and Insurance Interests have their candidates to present to you–one or the other–throw a dart because you will get a liar on either score.
My opinions-draw your own conclusions.
It helps that I have fortitude but also I have a legal team who tells me my rights and what is allowed to be released and they said ALL…so there ya go…
If any entity fails to do release any further due to me addressing this in emails to you and you all discussed this on IM..that areas is covered,,,
2020 is here.
I wonder if IM will be represented right in MacLean and Holly and Alan’s book because I was serious this is the year the tools are being shared…just send me a notarized letter that when I give you such tool you plan to use it for PUBLIC (for the world to see) EDUCATIONAL PURPOSES and not for harm or suit but to see the actual steps that were take on June 30, 2013. I also require anyone I seen bash me or speak with any questionable fashion in records a written apology so that does mean Deborah would fall into that category and she would have to publicly admit some discussed topics too. If anyone was to cause harm or suit to me because I know the tools … legally I don’t have to share it. It will be just as I stated, you may file suit to certain individuals and entities once you have the tool and it was successful for you then I think it’s important to gain it from other individuals and entities so we can begin to publicly collaborate the data. Once you have successfully done that on yours and the suits PLEASE have your legal team meet with me so I can go even a step further to stop some insidious layers and then and only then the areas Gary wants to do with NWCG will be successful
From time to time I will peak here but off the pc
Loads to organize…regearing for Fire Season 2020
From:
To:
Lucas,Ralph
Sventek
Jaimie
Date:
Subject:
11/2/2015 1:20:26 PM
Re: Message from Ralph
No idea. Sorry. She just responded thanks.
Ralph
On Nov 2, 2015, at 11:26 AM, Sventek,Jaimie wrote:
Ralph,
I did receive the envelope this morning and I have it in my office. I’ll hold it for her until she stops by to pick it
up. Any idea when she may be stopping by? Thank you for letting me know.
Sincerely,
jaimie
From: Lucas,Ralph
Sent: Monday, November 02, 2015 11:20 AM
To: Sventek,Jaimie
Subject: Message from Ralph
Dear Jaimie:
I forwarded an envelope to you for Amanda Marsh. It has some of his personal belongings in it. She will be by to pick
it up from you. Just wanted you to know.
Sincerely,
Ralph
om:
To:
Date:
Subject:
Facebook <
Willis,Darrell
10/9/2014 4:52:15 PM
A friend wants you to like a Page on Facebook
Invites from Friends
Hi Darrell,
Amanda Beno Marsh invited you to like Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
Community
Amanda Beno Marsh, Allen Fernandez and Joe Hernandez like this.
Like
View All Invites
Thanks,
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
This message was sent to [email protected]. If you don’t want to receive these emails from Facebook
in the future, please unsubscribe. Facebook, Inc., Attention: Department 415, PO Box 10005, Palo Alto, CA 94303
From:
To:
Light,Dennis
Moser
Cory
CC:
Sventek
Jaimie
Date:
Subject:
1/27/2016 1:27:27 PM
RE: GMIHC Buggy – Private Photo Shoot Request
Thanks. Jaimie has Amanda Marsh’s contact number should you find a need to contact face to face on
some of the finer points. DL
Dennis B. Light
Fire Chief
1700 Iron Springs Road | Prescott, AZ 86305
Ph: 928-777-1700 | Fax: 928-776-1890 | TDD: 928-445-6811
[email protected]
—–Original Message—–
From: Moser,Cory
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2016 12:18 PM
To: Light,Dennis
Subject: RE: GMIHC Buggy – Private Photo Shoot Request
Will do
C
S. Cory Moser, M. Sc.
Battalion Chief, B-Shift
Prescott Fire Department
[email protected]
(928) 777-1704 work
(928) 713-0844 cell
________________________________________
From: Light,Dennis
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2016 7:38 AM
To: Moser,Cory
Cc: Sventek,Jaimie; Kennedy,Jim; Devendorf,Don
Subject: FW: GMIHC Buggy – Private Photo Shoot Request
Good Morning Cory…then it may be a different day by the time you check email ☺. Anyways I’d like to
see if we can offer our due diligence to support the below undertaking by Amanda Marsh. It is slated for
this Thursday and it seems Mike Lavers is a qualified CDL operator.
This is to be used in publicity related to the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters and I have
few reservations about supporting. I’ve asked Jaimie to add to the training calendar and copied Jimmy
Kennedy too as FYI.
10/1/2018Page 2
Thanks in advance and if there is something of a “higher priority” please let me know asap so in turn
Amanda may be advised.
Sincerely,
Dennis B. Light
Fire Chief
1700 Iron Springs Road | Prescott, AZ 86305
Ph: 928-777-1700 | Fax: 928-776-1890 | TDD: 928-445-6811
[email protected]
From: Sventek,Jaimie
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2016 12:55 PM
To: Light,Dennis
Subject: GMIHC Buggy – Private Photo Shoot Request
Chief Light,
Amanda Marsh would like to have one of the GMIHC crew buggies present on January 28th at 12PM
at the Granite Mountain Trailhead off of Williamson Valley Road for a private photo shoot. A
photographer will photo the buggy with an animal (dog) and the proceeds from the sale of the
photograph will benefit the Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters. Can you please contact
Mrs. Marsh to finalize the details? She can be reached at
Sincerely,
Jaimie Sventek
Business Manager
Prescott Fire Department
[cid:[email protected]][cid:[email protected]]
1700 Iron Springs Road | Prescott, AZ 86305
Ph: 928-777-1766 | Fax: 928-776-1890 | TDD: 928-445-6811 jaimie.sventek@prescott-az.
gov
From:
To:
CC:
“John N Maclean” <
"Darrell Willis"
“Holly Neill” <
BCC: None
Date: 10/17/2013 11:16:50 AM
Subject:
SiteAccess
Darrell,
That is bad news. Does this mean the whole area or just the actual fenced-off deployment site?
***********************************
John N Maclean
http://JohnMacleanBooks.com
***********************************
On Oct 17, 2013, at 1:50 PM, Holly Neill wrote:
Good Morning Darrell,
Thanks for your reply. This is bad news about access to the site especially for John and Ted. Is it
possible to hike from the original crew buggy location, past the grader, up to the lunch spot, the Parker
and Ashcraft photo locations, and over to view the deployment valley from the top, then return via the
same route?
What is the purpose for this denial of access after having given prior permission?
About comms, Marsh verified VLAT dry run at 1637. From his 1615 comms with OPS to his 1637
comms with ASM2 there is a gap of 22 minutes for Marsh. Five minutes later at 1642 he notifies about
deployment.
There has been a pervasive sense that GM was negligent in communicating their intentions, I am
working to prove otherwise. It seems Marsh is speaking for the crew “We’re” going down, etc. Even if
he was not physically with them, he is relaying their actions as DIVS and SUPT.
Can you tell me if ASM2 has a GPS or spider type tracking system that tracks and logs specific dry
runs? Would it be possible to identify the exact dry run path that was flown over Marsh when he verified
10/1/2018Page 2
it as “what we want”? The report says this dry run was flown just N of Yarnell from W to E, but can it be
narrowed down to more specifics? If the VLAT would have come in from the W, the ridge top, I’m also
wondering where the DC10 would have started the drop. I am looking to narrow down Marsh’s position
when he verified this dry run…. Any thoughts on this?
About Blue Ridge- if Frisby believed that Marsh was coming down to the road they walked up on, or
any road DOWN below, then heading North, wouldn’t they be heading into the fire? I could understand
this if the crew stayed on the ridge top and headed north, but not if they headed down to a road below,
then went north. It doesn’t make sense to me that BR thought they were headed down then North (pg
24), especially since Donut had reached his trigger points, they would have been heading into the fire!
Am I missing something, what are your thoughts on this?
Best of luck dealing with ADF and this recent set back,
Holly
—–Original Message—–
From: Willis,Darrell
To: Holly Neill <
Sent: Thu, Oct 17, 2013 10:39 am
Subject: RE: Google Earth Image
Good morning Holly,
Been scrambling on a glitch with ADF this morning. They have denied PFD and everyone other than
immediate family access to the deployment site. That means Ted, John, you and I cannot access the
site. I am meeting with Ted in 15 minutes to tell him.
Communication gap- it still looks like there is a 33 minute gap between 1615 and 1648 when the
deployment occurred. But I do believe no one knew exactly what they were doing, black vs moving. I
do believe Blue Ridge thought they were going North not South. I think pictures and video prove they
were moving earlier than 1615.
From the video I also believe Marsh was north of the crew and trying to catch up with them when they
began moving.
I do not know if the SAIT team got his phone records. I am assuming they asked because they got
mine. But whether they got them or not I do not know. His wife is in Europe for three months trying to
stay off the radar. Marsh did NOT have a PFD issued cell phone. You are welcome to share our
communications with Ted and John. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
333 White Spar Road
Prescott, AZ 86303
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
(928)925-7311 Cell
Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
From: Holly Neill [mailto:
<
Sent: Wednesday, October 16, 2013 4:14 PM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: Google Earth Image
Hi Darrell,
10/1/2018
]Page 3
Thanks so much for your reply-I totally understand about trusting who you talk to, I have read so much
BS on Yarnell in the past 3 months, so much has been misinterpreted and taken out of context, etc.
Thank you for your reply, and yes you can certainly trust me to seek truth and facts only, on your behalf
and GMIHC.
Wayne and I are coming to Yarnell on Nov 12 until Nov 16. We will be meeting with John and with Ted
and hope to see you as well. We'll be staying at Marriott SpringHill Suites, and John as well. Perhaps
we can take you out for lunch or dinner, at your convenience. We can be available 13-14-15.
About the 1615 radio traffic, look at page 100 of the Report. At approx. 1615 ASM2 overhears DIVS A
and OPS talking about GM going down their escape route to a safety zone…… Doesn't this conflict with
the 33 minute gap in comms, as well as conflict with the opinions that GM did not communicate properly
about their intentions to move? It doesn't make sense that OPS then states to ASM2 that GM was in a
good place and safe. How do you interpret this? Only one of these accounts can be true. Either GM
was safe in the black, or they were going down their escape route to a safety zone.
I'm attaching a Google image of what I have labeled the "shortcut". I am curious if Marsh could have
taken this route down alone, acting as lookout for the crew, directing the VLAT drop from W to E just N
of Yarnell-right across the N side of BS ranch, right across the path the fire took as it hooked around
and headed toward GM, in front of (N) of the rocky knobs that blocked the crew's view of the fire as
they descended. There is much to support this theory, I look forward to a discussion with you!
About Cell phone records for Marsh's personal cell. Do you know if the Investigation team was able to
obtain the records for his phone, for all incoming and outgoing calls made from 1500 on? Was Eric's
wife willing to release them? Just to clarify, Marsh did not have a PFD issued cell phone?
I sent this same list of questions for you to Ted and John, so I will let them know about your response,
hopefully they will look at the shortcut route with you as well.
Best Regards to you Darrell, and we hope to see you soon!
Hugs, Holly
—–Original Message—–
From: Willis,Darrell
To: holly
<
Sent: Wed, Oct 16, 2013 2:29 pm
Subject: Facebook questions
Hello Holly,
Good to hear from you. First let me state I am an open book on the events that occurred on June 30th.
I will be taking Ted down to the site on Friday and have an appointment to talk with John Maclean on
November 10th for a site visit and discussion. My only concern is that anyone take my comments out of
context or tries to utilize my comments on theory and not the facts. There has been lots of amateur
investigators that have misconstrued my comments in the past. I do trust the three of you and I would
like the truth and facts to come out not just opinions. I would love to meet with you and Wayne when
you come to Prescott. Below is my responses to your questions:
1. Marsh and Steed had private cell phones, Marsh had his with him, Steed’s was found in the
Superintendent truck after the event. I have a PFD cell phone and my records have been reviewed by
the investigation teams and I can get you my records
if you want.
10/1/2018Page 4
2. I did not have a GMIHC crew radio, nor did I have their intra-crew frequency programmed in. My BK
radio was set on the ADF group that I had cloned the night before when I arrived at the fire.
3. My interpretation of Marsh’s 1637 confirmation of ASM2 was that he thought they knew where he
(they were) was and that the VLAT could drop on the crew or the fire to slow it’s ROS. I did not hear
this transmission I was totally focused on my tactical frequency overseeing a burnout.
4. I do not see any communications with DIV A and OPS at 1615, maybe I missed it somewhere in the
report.
5. I guess we will have to discuss this route when we meet in person.
6. I was SPGS2 on the North side of the supervising tactical operations near the Double Bar A Ranch,
Model Creek Subdivision and Peeples Valley. I had a constant line of fire approaching the area
beginning around 1000 hours, the line of fire I estimated to be 1.5 miles wide (east to west) moving
North. I have attached my ICS 214 for a more detailed look at what we were doing. After the fire
reached our trigger point at the Double Bar A Ranch we conducted a burnout around the ranch and
the I noticed that the main body of fire would out flank us if we did not leave so we evacuated all
resources around 1430 hours. On the way out we tried to stay ahead of the main body of fire by firing
along a road to the North to Model Creek Road. At this point around 1515 hours I had discussed the
tactic with OPS1 about firing off the Model Creek road on the South side to protect Model Creek
homes. We did have some success with this but did have some slop over’s that were picked up by
engines due to the wind coming from the south. Fire behavior was extreme, at 1630 the wind switched
from the South to the North and we were able to hold the fire on Model Creek road because we had
the wind to our backs.
I hope this helps with your questions.
DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
501 Sixth Street
Prescott, AZ 86303
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
(928)925-7311 Cell
Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
10/1/2018
Sonny,
Neill comments then asks: “This is bad news about access to the site … What is the purpose for this denial of access after having given prior permission? </b< " Which means to me that they had some type of special privileges to be there in a restricted area given only to others having "official business or credentials."
WTF is that all about? First off, this is bad news means they were counting on it. Secondly, how is it that they are given " prior permission ” to access a restricted area?
Is it because the USFS, who paid for the YH Fire SAIT, knows that the Maclean-Neill Team will tow the Party Line and publish only the “official” story from the Sept. 2013 “Factual” SAIT-SAIR?
The “Safety Matters” website has this quote from Voltaire: “To the living we owe respect but to the dead we owe only the truth. ”
Indeed, we (you) owe the truth to the dead GMHS, so then is Safety Matters Neill’s statement to Willis posted above: “… you can certainly trust me to seek truth and facts only, on your behalf and GMIHC .” a statement that squares with her Voltaire quote?
Or is it a forked tongue response of a self-serving, selective truth that protects only Willis and the SAIT?
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-481805 )
The FOIA reports are courtesy of Joy Collura. I know for a fact Joy has spent countless hours and effort getting these–they are not something an ordinary person such as myself could easily obtain–there are just too many hurdles purposely constructed to keep people in the dark. I applaud Joy–I know it has cost her financially, physically, emotionally, and even health to get them.
I have not myself yet read through them thoroughly and even so I understand that the wise wild land fire fighters and others more informed will be gleaning information valuable to their understanding of events that led up to the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew and methods to change the causes that killed them.
I do not wish to disparage Eric Marsh–He was an individual that did not belong in the position he was allowed. Whether his actions to kill the men was purposeful is doubtful, but his careless way of going about his job in my opinion were grounds for negligent homicide of 18 souls. Of course it can be argued that Steed was the final cause of the deaths. He had his part in it as well, but my understanding was that he argued against it. The gods that be had ingrained the idea that the warrior on the line must take orders on a daily basis without question. They did and were killed.
But truth is there are much wiser men and decisions makers here on this site–most of whom have retired from wild land fire fighting and understanding the nuances in keeping their crews alive. Basically most seem to espouse the idea that men were kept alive on their crews because they respected and followed the basic common sense rules taught in basic fire fighting. The GMHS crew leaders did not follow that example and proved it by breaking all the four basic rules that day. I am not even sure that the men knew them–Donut called them “hillbilly” and thought you ought to just go about firefighting without a clue. He indeed is fortunate to be alive since he was even saved only by the chance appearance of Brian Frisbee from another crew who risked his own life to save him. Brian by the way was never given an award for that heroic action.
So the thanks go to Joy for her sharing of her labors.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=725q82CR_r4&feature=youtu.be&fbclid=IwAR0bqUhgtpdK5HDxmAfnHhofzW8Rs6fYZtzWJRK_Um3f8N_jbPrbwks1Yz4
Better use of this facility is have me buy it
I think I need a new FOIA and PRR storage area
What better place then there🤭😉
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/34717-gosar-proposes-naming-warship-after-granite-mountain-hotshots
Gosar, did you hear Chief Light right? Maybe he said worship not warship
How about honoring the men and meet with me to go over some areas and we can make a post for your full account and I can show you the tools how…open invite to you.
More interesting material from FOIA curtesy of Joy:
From:
To:
“Deanna Thompson” <f
Willis
Darrell
BCC: None
Date: 1/27/2015 9:38:31 AM
Subject:
Attachments:
Re: Mystery Engine
image001.png
image002.jpg
image004.png
image003.png
That's why I'm here…and Holly and Maclean. There's others too, they just go about it differently and
maybe we will end up with the same answer. Regardless, believe we will know the entire truth one
days. I'm only 43 years old and consider Yarnell my winter job and am committed.
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 9:26 AM, Willis,Darrell wrote:
Thanks for the heads up on
mother I hadn’t heard.
As far as what E156 saw or heard, probably a lot! Sure wish every resource on the fire would have
been interviewed(properly) and documented. I feel like we are losing ground on the truth every day that
passes. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
10/1/2018Page 2
From: Deanna Thompson [mailto
Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2015 9:19 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: Re: Mystery Engine
Chief,
Thank you so much! My records also show a Glendale resource there, resource order E-21. This
resource order was one of a couple I had pinned for E-156 but wasn’t sure. The problem with the
ROSS stuff is there’s no detail to who was assigned and in Esquibel’s Unit Log/Interview it’s really hard
to tell if what he’s saying is correct. He was a TFLD(T) and in over his head and often seems confused
to me. Does it concern you or make you wonder what that engine was doing in at the Helms for two
hours? What did they hear? What did they see? What was the plan for them to be in at the Helms…why
did Esquibel have them in there? This Engine also was in Shrine with everyone else…you can spot E-
156 in the helmet cam video, it comes out right before Esquibel who comes out before Blue Ridge.
Ironically I go through my notes from the past year and a half and I have E-156 with question marks,
and I wondered if it existed or if it was numbers that got switched around, etc. I should have just asked
you to begin with. Thanks again
And Happy New Year to you and yours!
PS. I’m not sure if you are aware but
Mom had a heart attack 10 days ago and has been in the
ICU since, has had multiple surgeries and in critical condition. She’s in
Wasn’t sure if
you had heard that.
Deanna
On Tue, Jan 27, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Willis,Darrell wrote:
Deanna,
Very good to hear from you. Congratulations on the Elk hunt. I took my grandson on his first deer hunt
and he was successful, great opportunity for a city kid to get out in the woods and it was great for my
soul to help him get into hunting.
10/1/2018Page 3
As far as the engine in the screen shot goes, I have a hunch but I think I am pretty accurate in that. The
color of the vehicle stands out and there is only one department that I know of that uses that color
scheme, Glendale Fire Department. My records show a Glendale E-156 assigned to the fire. They
were never with me on the North end so I would assume that if they were assigned, they would have
been on the South under Structure Protection Group 1.
As far as Eric carrying extra tools, I think you are right on. Eric and/or Steed sometimes carried a
machete (long bladed knife with a handle). I do not know for sure if he had it that day but it is very
possible.
Hope Fred and you are enjoying your winter, Happy New Year to you. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
From: Deanna Thompson [mailto:
Sent: Monday, January 26, 2015 4:29 PM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: Mystery Engine
Hi Chief Willis,
Deanna Thompson here, we have met a time or 10/1/2018
two, usually I’m with Holly. How are you? I hope all isPage 4
well with you and yours. We are doing good, Fred’s in Albuquerque for two weeks for Fire Hire, it’s the
first time R-1 is using that system so he had to go to the source. We have two German Shepherds so
I’m here with them..having two large dogs can determine what I do but it’s so worth it–I love them! Did
you have any luck hunting last fall? We managed to bag two elk, so we are super happy. Of course we
cut steaks, but we also make our own jerky and then have ‘pepperoni’ sticks made by a local guy.
Good stuff and so fun.
I’m hoping you can help me with something. I’m sending you a screen shot of a T6 Engine that was in
the Helm’s from approximately 1230-1415. I’ve done all I can searching through the ROSS records and
any other paper trail and I’m not having any luck identifying the Engine. I’ve asked some R3 folks and
they say it looks like a VFD rig, it’s not a Peeples Valley or Yarnell FD (confirmed by a YFD employee)
vehicle and that is where I pegged it from but I was wrong. Also, this engine came out of the Helm’s
around the time resources were asked to move to Shrine to engage there and when the Helm’s
returned in their golf cart (you can see them sort of behind that old water wagon sitting their in their golf
cart. Can you help me?
Also Chief Willis I’ve been meaning to ask you about the tools that Eric Marsh may have had with him. I
know my husband as a Supt, because they’re usually out scouting in front of the crew, will sometimes
have a, well I’m not sure what to call it but a strong handled, big blade knife with maybe a hook on the
end. Something used to whack at brush at will. Do you know if Eric carried a tool like this? The reason I
ask is because when we were at the site last November, I remember seeing Yucca that looked cut at
eye level…so hard to really say but I’ve always wondered if Eric carried a tool like this.
I appreciate your time immensely and thank you.
Deanna
Sonny, thanks for posting this gem. And thank you so much Joy for passing these along.
“ That’s why I’m here…and Holly and Maclean. There’s others too, they just go about it differently and maybe we will end up with the same answer. Regardless, believe we will know the entire truth one days. I’m only 43 years old and consider Yarnell my winter job and am committed .”
Others too going about it differently? If you are so “committed” then the only way “to end up with the same answer” is to collaborate and share if you REALLY want to know the truth about the YH Fire.
” This Engine also was in Shrine with everyone else…you can spot E156 in the helmet cam video, it comes out right before Esquibel who comes out before Blue Ridge ”
Then that means that this GFD Engine and these GFD FFs know about the likely firing operation in the Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor area.
“.Also, this engine came out of the Helm’s around the time resources were asked to move to Shrine to engage there and when the Helm’s returned in their golf cart (you can see them sort of behind that old water wagon sitting their in their golf cart”
As the mystery continues to unfold and those Cretans in the dark shadows have the light of the truth now shining upon them …
Cretans come from a island of Southeast Greece known as Crete which is located in the Eastern Mediterranean Sea near the Southern entrance to the Agean Sea. Crete is a rugged mountainous region, once inhabited by Minoan people, whose reputation was less than ideal. (Job 36:13)
A Greek philosopher, Epimenides (600 B.C.), characterized the Cretans as perpetual liars, evil beasts, and lazy gluttons (Titus 1:12). Jews from this region were present in Jerusalem on Pentecost, and Christianity could have enjoyed its commencement on the island as a result of this historic occasion. (Acts 2:11)
From a consideration of the book of Titus, it is apparent that Paul visited Crete at some point following his first Roman imprisonment (Acts 28). The Cretans had an “attitude” weakness. Polybius, a Greek historian, described them as very revolutionary in spirit.
And like so many we see today, they had an “authority” problem.
Very likely the Cretan Christians had some difficulty in ridding themselves of this self-willed disposition.(Job 38:4)
An often confused term Cretan (a person from Crete) or cretin (fool/idiot/jerk).
Here’s another excerpt gem between these two.
From DT to DW “If I could tell you how many times I’ve heard the past week “ these guys were told not to talk” or “be careful what you say”–specifically to me! One of my friends in R3 was basically warned to be careful what he said to ME and this came per Clay Templin! I don’t even know Clay Templin. My mind automatically turns to thinking what are they hiding? It’s not like I’m out there publicly making things up about the YHF, …I’m only seeking the entire story so why does that bother people/firefighters so much? And I find that feeling exists more in the USFS and YHF was a State fire with really very few USFS resources on it. Does it come down to the USFS being afraid they will get caught up in the lawsuits somehow if their people talk?”
It comes down to the USFS paid for the AZ State Forestry YH Fire SAIT and therefore the SAIR as well. And with Federal funding comes Federal control.
And yet, THESE are the ones lying and hiding stuff and doing their best to discredit those that are sharing the truth, like those on IM and ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
From:
To:
Collier,Marsha
Devendorf
Don
Date:
Subject:
3/2/2016 8:48:03 AM
Amanda Marsh
Good Morning Chief
Yesterday Amanda Marsh came by the station and wanted to place Eric Marsh Foundation stickers on all the crew
vehicles. The only vehicle that was accessible was the Sup Truck. I did not feel comfortable questioning her placing
the sticker on the truck. She also informed me there were some items that she wanted if we closed the station or
took down signs that have Granite Mountain on them. I know we need Chief permission to place anything on city
vehicles but given the situation I was not comfortable having any kind of conflict with Amanda.
Thank You
Marsha
From:
“Amy Armenta”
To:
BCC: [email protected]
Date: 1/19/2018 2:43:33 PM
Subject:
2nd annual Survivors Retreat
Dear GMHIC Alumni,
We would like to invite you to Our 2nd Annual Survivors Retreat April 5th through the 8th 2018 at
Camp Pinerock 1400 Pine Dr, Prescott, Arizona 86303
The Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters hope you will join us for our Survivors Retreat. This retreat is for next of
kin of wildland firefighters and wildland crew members, to come together for a weekend of comradery, fun, therapeutic
resources, healing, outdoor activities and new connections. The retreat is no cost to guests and includes all meals, lodging,
outdoor recreation and activities. It is our hope that through this retreat, we can give families and crew members an
opportunity to find healing and new relationships with others who have suffered loss on the fire line. The Survivors retreat will
be held at Camp Pinerock in Prescott, AZ.
Please contact Amy (Executive Director) at [email protected] or by phone 928.420.5010 for registration and
more information. Registration is open now through March 28 th Space is limited to 60 people.
We hope you will join us for what will be a fun, memorable and meaningful weekend amongst wildland fire family.
Most Sincerely,
Amanda Marsh & Amy Armenta
And the Eric Marsh Foundation board members
Kind Regards,
Amy Armenta
http://www.ericmarshfoundation.org
From:
To:
holly
“Roxanne Lopez”
“Waldock, William D” <
"Darrell Willis" <
CC:
Harwood,Doug
Date:
Subject:
5/10/2016 3:47:57 PM
Re: WFGI
WFGI,
I agree with this conservative and careful approach.
I suggest we do due diligence with the Discovery project as well. Can Jim provide contacts at
Discovery so we can make some inquiries into the project?
I would like to know more about Discovery’s overall endeavor .
Thanks Roxy, Holly
Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone
——– Original message ——–
From: Roxanne Lopez , Darrell Willis <
Cc: Juliann Ashcraft , Holly Neill , Doug
Harwood , Vicki Boswell , Gary Northam
, Jerry Pfingston
>
Subject: Re: WFGI
Good Afternoon,
I spoke with Jim Moseley, I informed him that WFGI will not fund his trip or his project, and that he cannot use our
logo without WFGI Board of Directors approval. I told him that the reason WFGI decided against funding SunFire
Defense is because the Fire Shelter Project put on by the USFS is still in the beginning stages, and it would not be
beneficial for WFGI, or for wildland firefighters that WFGI get involved so early in the project.
He knows that WFGI will not endorse SunFire Defense, and that WFGI will not fund SunFire Defense. He was
understanding. He wants to take funding and endorsement out of the equation in our partnership. He wants to continue
with the Discovery channel, and allow the Board, or selected WFGI Directors, to help him write the script. This gives
WFGI control on the content and context. He wants to focus on who WFGI is, why WFGI was formed, and for
WFGI to advocate the importance of wildland firefighter safety. He would also like to invite other companies to
showcase their products that will help save wildland firefighter lives. This is a speaking platform where we can reach
10/1/2018Page 2
people we ordinarily would not reach.
The Discovery channel was offered to us regardless of funding, and we had voted to purse it. I would like to know if
this is still something that the Board of Directors wants to pursue.
Please, let me know what you all think about this. I would love to hear everyone’s opinions and concerns.
Thank you!
Roxy
On Friday, May 6, 2016 7:32 PM, “Waldock, William D” wrote:
I concur with Darrell. It’s unfortunate, but I think Jim and Will assumed we were supporting them based on the
meeting the other night. The demonstration that Jim did was compelling, but he didn’t really answer my
questions as to how the Inconel thread would perform in holding the quilt and batting sections together.
That’s why I asked him if he could provide a 1/4 or smaller scaled prototype that we could do a test of concept
in our test cell in the crash lab.
On a related note, Roxy provided the USFS RFP testing protocols to me for clarification. These pertain to any
submission developed as a prototype(attached for your reference). Our engineering department could
probably complete the “Tier 1” tests, but we don’t have the equipment or expertise locally to complete the
other Tiers. There are maybe 5 labs in North America that I can think of that would.
A PFD employee wrote to PFD Chief Devendorf:
” I did not feel comfortable questioning her placing the sticker on the truck. … I was not comfortable having any kind of conflict with Amanda. (emphasis added)
Whoa now, I understand that Ms. A B-M has been through a lot and come a long way with her coveted EMF and all that, so what does that say about the AB-M attitude and respect to others that we hear so much about? And how this PFD employee and how she felt uncomfortable about the whole thing?
Thanks RTS for highlighting the areas that need to be addressed. I pasted and copied, but knew you and others would sort it out much better.
On friend’s iPad. I shut my pc due to glitches. That means the person that is waiting for call will wait for tomorrow because I was shut off my email. I don’t have your number.
Listen to Willis…
“ I feel like we are losing ground on the truth every day that
passes. DW”
I challenge his own words and I have open invite for you as well on the tools but if we are going to learn where you were for sure than let’s add the rest too even Tyson and Donut and Will and Troy and GS…and MK too…and BB too..the freaking list goes on…
you all who want to keep trashing me…it’s just public records and when it comes to ethics … releasing them without any cost to the world …that’s priceless
I hope they all learned lessons how to communicate online because I can pull personal emails tied to fire too and texts and you will see that as I continue to dump it out. The world waited for first hand folks and they failed us.
Yet these people who are hiding stuff you will get to learn for yourself who at least…right
I am deeply disappointed in Nowicki because October 2013 the records show someone from the CITY OF PRESCOTT told you to leave Amanda alone and they added my name to the list .directed at you and we did not get to know another until late Fall 2013 and you never ever told me about this Amanda email with my name on it. That’s wrong. What’s more wrong is Amanda sent me kind emails in 2013 at the exact same time you Nowicki got this letter and all that time I thought Amanda was fine with me. Plus in the letter I was not investigating or gathering records until Holly Neill article came out January 2014 when I heard a City official knock her article when Sonny and I were in a a Walmart ..that was what sparked me in 2014 to pull records…but we all can thank Nowicki because had she not talked with me I would have zero clue to the records world, she gets all the credit, what I am reading in records is disturbing and hard and overwhelming.
rom:
To:
Date:
Subject:
“Western Fire Chiefs Association”
Moser,Cory
5/28/2015 12:20:46 PM
Arizona Daily Dispatch – Thursday, May 28, 2015
Off-duty Phoenix firefighter facilitates Piestewa Peak rescue
VIDEO: An off-duty firefighter facilitated the mountain rescue Wednesday evening of a man with severe muscle
cramps at Piestewa Peak in north Phoenix, a fire official said. Aaron Ernsberger, a spokesman for Phoenix Fire
Department, said the Phoenix firefighter was doing a fitness routine in the park when he came across the 40-year-
old man and assessed his condition. Phoenix Fire Department units were called, and the hiker was placed in the
“big wheel” – a basket that allows crews to safely transport patients down a mountain, according to Ernsberger. The
hiker was taken to a local hospital for a medical evaluation, Ernsberger said.
ARIZONA REPUBLIC, AZCENTRAL.COM & KPNX-TV NBC 12 PHOENIX
Tonto National Forest: ‘Human caused’ Blevens Fire breaks out near Globe
VIDEO: Fire crews are battling a new Arizona wildfire. Tonto National Forest officials say the “Blevens Fire” is
burning near State Route 188 and 288, in between Globe and the Town of Roosevelt. It was first reported around
4:50 p.m. Wednesday evening. Officials say the 75-acre blaze is human caused and under investigation. Two hot
shot crews, 10 fire engines, 1 helicopter and 3 air tankers are working to extinguish the blaze. Officials say if
needed, ground crews will continue to work throughout the night. Firefighters say no structures are being threatened
at this time. The fire is zero percent contained. Commuters are advised to avoid the area.
KNXV-TV CHANNEL 15 ABC
Multiple wildfires break out in Eastern Santa Cruz County
Firefighters were scrambling to deal with multiple wildland blazes that broke out across eastern Santa Cruz and
Pima counties and last week. At more than 2,000 acres, the largest by far was the Oak Tree Fire near Sonoita, which
was first reported at 1:15 p.m. on Wednesday, May 20 on State Route 83 just north of the junction with Greaterville
Road. Chief Joseph DeWolf of the Sonoita-Elgin Fire District said the blaze was actually three separate fires spread
along both sides of the highway from Milepost 42 to Milepost 43.5. SEFD firefighters initially focused their efforts on
an RV trailer that had caught fire before taking on two smaller fires ranging from three to seven acres. “We hit those
first because they were closest to structures,” DeWolf said, adding that there was a ranch on the east side of the
highway that was of concern. Meanwhile, another of the roadside fires that had been “moving away” soon became
the largest. “So then we started to picking up that,” DeWolf said. “The flames were pretty good, and the wind was
pushing it.” DeWolf said a number of other agencies gave a good response in rapid succession including
Patagonia Volunteer Fire and Rescue, Whetstone Fire District, Mescal J6 Fire District, the U.S. Forest Service and
Arizona State Fire.
NOGALES INTERNATIONAL
Movie in development about ‘Yarnell 19’ hotshots
A movie about Prescott’s fallen hotshot firefighters is still in the works, although some of the players have changed.
Producer Lorenzo di Bonaventura of “Transformers” fame is in the development stage for the movie, planning the
elements of the film, his publicist Arnold Robinson of
Rogers and Cowan said. Ken Nolan, screenwriter of “Black
10/1/2018Page 2
Hawk Down,” currently is writing the script, Robinson added. “There are no actors attached to the project at this time,
but discussions with talent are taking place,” Robinson said. Director Scott Cooper (“Crazy Heart” and “Out of the
Furnace”) is no longer planning to work on the hotshot film, his spokesperson said. Hopefully production on the
hotshots movie will begin late this year or early next year, Robinson said. There is no timeframe for when the film
will be in theaters. Prescott lost 19 of its 20-man Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew on June 30, 2013,
when they were overrun by the raging Yarnell Hill wildfire about 30 miles south of Prescott. It was the worst fatality of
elite hotshot wildland firefighters in history. The city has not replaced the crew. “The nation came together to mourn
the great loss of life by these heroes, but their bonds with each other makes their story so much more extraordinary
and compelling,” di Bonaventura said. “The story of the Granite Mountain Hotshots, and the tragedy that befell them,
is not as much about the fire as it is about a group of blue-collar guys and their families and the brotherhood that
they form with one another.” Amanda Marsh, widow of Granite Mountain Hotshots Superintendent Eric Marsh, said
she has been in contact with the filmmakers but not recently. She told them she would help them be true to her late
husband’s character, but she has not asked for any monetary compensation. Di Bonaventura has worked with
actors ranging from “The Rock” Dwayne Johnson on one of di Bonaventura’s G.I. Joe movies to Mark Wahlberg on
his latest “Transformers” movie. Di Bonaventura currently is working on “Deepwater Horizon” with Wahlberg, reports
the IMDb website.
THE DAILY COURIER
Saving the Kaibab National Forest from 9,000 feet in the air
He’s the eye in the sky watching over the 1.6 million acres of the Kaibab National Forest, and he does it all from a 7-
foot by 7-foot observation room at 9,500 feet elevation. “I’m looking for smoke and it’s hard,” said Jeff Newton, a
wildfire lookout for the Kaibab National Forest. “It’s like looking for a needle in a haystack.” Newton, a former
firefighter, is in his third season as a lookout stationed on the Bill Williams Mountain. The lookout has been used by
the U.S. Forest Service for 100 years and the tower he calls his office is about 75 years old. During the summer
months, Newton lives in modest quarters at the base of the tower and takes the stairs up to his office with a 360
degree view of northern Arizona. From his perch, Newton can point out Mount Elden in the east and the Grand
Canyon to the north. He said he can see for 50 to 80 miles on a clear day, but he has also seen his fair share of wild
weather. “I’m looking right there and this lightning bolt came down and — bam — it blew up a tree right in front of me,”
he said. For eight hours a day, Newton is scanning and observing for possible wildfires. He is in constant contact
with dispatch, relaying weather information and reporting suspicious smoke. His is often the first person to spot any
potential flames. “You get in that forest and it’s rugged and there’s a lot of trees and you can’t see far and you can’t
always drive your truck right to the fire,” he said. He aids firefighters on the ground by helping to navigate crews to
the source of the smoke and provides weather updates. “It’s very critical to jump on that fire as soon as possible, so
you can make a decision as to whether you can manage or suppress the fire,” he said. Newton is from Palm
Springs, Calif. and is a teacher currently pursuing his doctorate degree in mathematics and physics. He said the
solitude of his job actually provides a lot of study time.
ARIZONA REPUBLIC, AZCENTRAL.COM & KPNX-TV NBC 12 PHOENIX
PREVIOUS STATE NEWS
New Salt Lake fire chief caught in political crossfire of mayoral race
Salt Lake City mayoral candidate and City Council Chairman Luke Garrott took a jab at Mayor Ralph Becker on
Tuesday regarding his appointment of a new fire chief. While the other five council members voted to approve the
mayor’s appointment of Brian Dale, who served as deputy chief under former Chief Kurt Cook, Garrott voted “no.” In
a prepared statement released the afternoon before Tuesday’s City Council meeting, Garrott voiced concerns about
Becker’s vetting process. “Ralph’s office sent the City Council four paragraphs about Dale’s background, which
either shows an inadequate vetting process or disregard for the responsibility of the City Council to review his
appointees,” he stated. “Either are unacceptable.” But David Everitt, Becker’s chief of staff, said Garrott’s claims lack
merit because the mayor’s office is open to council members if they have questions about provided information.
Even though Dale’s appointment was submitted three weeks ago, Garrott’s comments Tuesday were the first
concerns the mayor’s office has heard on the matter, Everitt said. “If Garrott has questions about any of Brian’s
experiences that he hasn’t learned from having been in the council over the past 7 1⁄2 years, then we are more than
happy to answer them,” Everitt said in an interview before the City Council meeting. “This is about trying to find a
campaign wedge,” he added. Before voting against the appointment of Dale, Garrott also voiced concerns about the
10/1/2018Page 3
hours of leave used by both Dale and his predecessor. While Dale volunteers for the International Academies of
Emergency Dispatch, an organization for which Dale travels to study and teach about best practices for dispatchers,
Garrott said Cook had a “reputation” for medical, personal and vacation leave.
DESERET NEWS
Reno, Washoe County will ‘date’ before merging fire departments in Nevada
Three years after the fire divorce it appears the city of Reno and Washoe County are going to “date” for awhile before
deciding whether to re-merge their fire agencies. At a joint meeting Tuesday, the Reno City Council and the Washoe
County Commission each voted unanimously to develop an automatic aid agreement that would allow for the
nearest fire engine to be immediately dispatched to a blaze regardless of jurisdiction. The two sides may have little
choice in the matter as a bill is poised to pass the Nevada Legislature that would mandate such an agreement. But
the two bodies also voted unanimously to investigate the details of a proposal by the Reno Fire Department to
merge the two fire agencies, a model that Reno leaders believe would be more efficient and better for taxpayers
than an automatic aid agreement. The County Commission on the other hand is reluctant to join with Reno again
after the contentious 2012 split of the two agencies, often referred to as the fire divorce. “I think right now what is in
front of us is a question of can we get along,” Commissioner Vaughn Hartung said. “This is the dating part. I think
we need to demonstrate we can successfully work together and then we can look at how we join forces regionally.”
Mayor Hillary Schieve isn’t willing to be patient for very long.
RENO GAZETTE-JOURNAL
New Mexico fire chief reports that border patrol agents tried to halt ambulance
One of the complaints fielded by the ACLU about Border Patrol checkpoints comes from the Columbus fire chief.
Chief Ken Riley reported that Border Patrol agents have tailed or tried to stop his ambulance when he skirts the
checkpoint on N.M. 11 toward Deming during an emergency transport, allegedly endangering patients in need of
critical care. The El Paso Sector Border Patrol told the Journal it has no record of any official allegations made by
ambulance services that agents stopped or delayed a life-saving trip to the hospital. The Columbus ambulance has
been used in the past to smuggle immigrants unlawfully into the country. A year ago in March, Columbus resident
Samuel Elliott pleaded guilty in federal court to conspiracy to transport illegal aliens. In 2013, Elliott loaded the
immigrants into an ambulance belonging to the Columbus Fire Department and blew through the Border Patrol
checkpoint on N.M. 11 with the sirens on. Border Patrol agents followed the ambulance and intercepted it when
Elliott stopped to transfer the immigrants to another vehicle.
ABQJOURNAL ONLINE
This is what could happen if you park in front of a fire hydrant in New Jersey
PHOTO: It’s 4:17 a.m. and four fire fighters need to make snap decisions. A vacant house along Sherwood Terrace
is on fire, but occupants may be inside, neighbors relayed. The fire hydrant that first responders need to hook their
hose up to is blocked by a parked vehicle. What do you do? “We exhausted the alternatives,” Pennsauken fire Chief
Jospeh Palumbo said of finding a water source during the “critical time period” when the first crews on scene arrive
and get to work. Palumbo, who arrived on scene shortly after the first fire truck arrived, said they were “left with no
choice” but no break the rear driver’s side and front passenger’s side windows on a black Honda SUV as to get a
hose from the hydrant to the engine. The possible incendiary fire may have been sparked by squatters, the chief
said, adding that the second closest fire hydrant was also blocked by another parked vehicle and trash cans. “If
anybody was parked near a fire hydrant, we would be obligated to ticket them,” Pennsauken police Sgt. Chris
Sulzbach said Wednesday of police protocol. The sergeant added that the police department hadn’t heard from any
neighbors near the scene regarding the response and towing of vehicles only occurs if it has been in the same spot
for awhile.
SOUTH JERSEY TIMES
Man arrested in connection with massive downtown Los Angeles arson fire
A suspect was behind bars Wednesday in connection with a massive arson fire that destroyed an under-
construction, seven-story apartment complex in downtown Los Angeles and burned so intensely it melted nearby
freeway signs and damaged neighboring buildings. Dawud Abdulwali, 56, of Los Angeles, was arrested Tuesday by
the Los Angeles Police Department’s Anti-Terrorism Division in connection with the Dec. 8 blaze, according to the
LAPD. He is being held in lieu of more than $1 million bail, according to sheriff’s jail records. The LAPD investigated
the fire along with the Los Angeles Fire Department and the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.
LAFD officials have scheduled a 6 p.m. news conference to discuss the arrest. The overnight fire caused $20
million to $30 million in damage to the DaVinci apartment complex. In addition to gutting most of the DaVinci
complex, the fire also damaged two nearby office towers owned by the city. Mayor Eric Garcetti said the fire caused
about $50 million to $60 million in damage to city property. The mayor said the arrest is proof that if a crime is
committed, “we will arrest you, we will prosecute you to the full extent of the law.” Rewards totaling $170,000 were
offered for information leading to the person who set the blaze. It was not immediately clear if anyone would be
eligible to claim the reward.
LOS ANGELES DAILY NEWS
10/1/2018Page 4
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Talk about two faced here is Wade that befriended Joy but was apparently doing his best to keep her from working with important sources to get at the truth. You will note that Joy emailed Amanda once only to give her condolances–I challenge Amanda to post the emails she claims that Joy harassed her. She can not since Joy never did except that email of condolance. The fact that Amanda had made herself a public figure, by accounts of WTKTT, we learned that public figures also put themselves up to public scrutiny and by law then actually would be subject to public communication without legal recourse. It is my understanding that Amanda actually invited people to communicate with her. She certainly did her part to go after people==her lawsuits are on record and show she was quite active in civil actions against people. Joy has none other than Amand’s attack. I see it as an attack against anyone attempting to get the true story of why the men were in my opinion murdered by the key player Eric Marsh. Of course it would be labeled a negligent homicide, but non the less a homicide. I see Steed also responsible but coerced by Marsh and the god powers at the time, the training and hiring methods It was obvious that crew had little understanding and respect for the training rules–something fostered by those in charge. The men follow the leader and Donut was the best example–something we would not have known had he not survived. He also was left in a highly precarious position and only by luck and a heroic action of Brian Frisby was able to survive. His attitude that the rules were “hillbilly” would have in time gotten him killed so he did well to get out of the fire fighting profession and make his way by the sympathies of being the sole survivor of a 19 man crew. Sorry, Amanda, Eric Marsh does not get a pass and free get out of jail card. He neglectfully caused the deaths of the 18 men below him by his careless actions with their lives. He is not the hero you would have people believe.
These are my opinions–and I stand by them. To denigrate Joy or anyone else for seeking and exposing the truth will not change th4e facts.
om:
To:
Ward,Wade
[email protected]
BCC: None
Date: 10/9/2013 2:09:39 PM
Subject:
Please consider
Dear Elizabeth Nowicki,
Amanda has passed on your email to me as I am not only a personal friend to Eric and Amanda but
have worked with the crew in years passed. Amanda would like for me to make contact with you and
ask that you and Joy, would not continue to e-mail her and rehash the tragic loss as well as your
personal investigation into her loss of Eric.
I can assure you, as I was apart of not only the loss of friends but the investigation and dissemination of
that information. The best and most comprehensive study that could have been done, was. Our jobs
are invariantly dangerous and things can change in a flash, as they did on June 30th. I would be happy
to spend sometime with you if need be to help you understand the outcome of the report and any back
round information I may be able to give you.
Please, in regards to Amanda, your emails and your personal feelings are counter productive. Amanda,
is at peace with the tragedy and the events of the day. if you need or want to contact me, please do so.
I will help you the best I can.
Sincerely,
Wade
Wade Ward
Firefighter &
Public Information Officer
A-Shift Station 71
928-777-1771 Station
928-308-0797 Cell
Our greatest fear should not be of Failure, but of Succeeding at things that don’t matter…..
It is all coming to light. Here is the last email from Joy to me. It shows the consternation she has and who would not with the way this was handled. In my opinion Amanda did much damage and was somehow able to convince people to follow here lead in attempting to present Eric Marsh as the man of the year–which indeed he was by causing the death of his crew, but not the hero of the year. Holly and others followed her lead and played the sneak game and apparently the idea of making money off this tragedy was high on the list of their decisions.
It goes to show the human tragedy of dishonesty in action. No good comes from it, but many are hurt from those actions. Truth may hurt some, but life is a learning process. I hope they benefit from being exposed so they change their ways. Be brave, admit, apologize then go forward in a better path. Good, honest and true paths reap the real rewards–that monetary gain is only temporary–Truth is forever.
Joys email:I am emailing Wade right now separate
I have emails in 2013 from Amanda that were KIND so for me to read 0345 from Wade Ward was disabiltating at the least because I have seen Ward a few times since the fire and HE NEVER TOLD ME this letter was shared or existed and he was always nice to me and it is HARD for me to read Amanda was kind to me in emails at the SAME TIME but was behind the scenes doing this- HARD! I am “frozen” – How is it I am the EYEWITNESS and this woman wants to ROB ME of talking and looking into what happened where I was on the Weavers and lived but 19 men did not- I am very disappointed by this kind of behavior that still exists today. CONTROL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I never ever wrote in 2013 anything to be included in this letter such way- Amanda wrote kind to me then…it was not until I started pulling records in 2014 after Holly’s article I was TREATED VERY BAD….Why only to Nowicki and I did not know NOWICKI then and it was within in the month after the SAIT SAIR went out and even then NOWICKI never told me this news- this is not right. They tried to STOP the LOOKING INTO that far back means something to me…I am now pulling WADE WARD RECORDS AND EMAILS. and attached that PRR to here. this is bogus. Truth Sayers, watch out…someone is trying to mark me that early back and barely even engaged on IM then so SOMETHING ain’t right.
Sonny, here’s another one from former PFD Wade Ward
“From: Ward,Wade
To: EN at columbia.edu
Date: 10/9/2013 2:09:39 PM
Subject: Please consider
“Dear Elizabeth Nowicki,
“Amanda has passed on your email to me as I am not only a personal friend to Eric and Amanda but have worked with the crew in years passed. Amanda would like for me to make contact with you and ask that you and Joy, would not continue to e-mail her and rehash the tragic loss as well as your personal investigation into her loss of Eric. I can assure you, as I was apart of not only the loss of friends but the investigation and dissemination of that information. The best and most comprehensive study that could have been done, was. Our jobs are invariantly dangerous and things can change in a flash, as they did on June 30th. I would be happy to spend sometime with you if need be to help you understand the outcome of the report and any back round information I may be able to give you. Please, in regards to Amanda, your emails and your personal feelings are counter productive. Amanda, is at peace with the tragedy and the events of the day. if you need or want to contact me, please do so. I will help you the best I can.” (emphasis added)
The best and most comprehensive study that could have been done, was. Are you friggin; kidding me? The best? And most comprehensive? Could have been done and was? WTF? Delusional for sure from most likely drinking the YH Fire kool-aid
Our jobs are invariantly dangerous and things can change in a flash, as they did on June 30th.
:Sincerely, Wade”
Yes indeed they are invariably dangerous jobs. And what about all the WFs, FFs, Hybrid FFs, and Contractors and Eyewitness Hikers that did just fine that day? And a full trained and experienced Interagency HS Crew didn’t? WTF?
I need some time with you because I need help to understand the outcome of the report and any back round information
We all need help on that one. Please , pray tell, do share.
I think this Wade had to be smelling that Datura plant. But we know what he was up to in the investigation-make it quick and to the point–that point being the general summation of all wild land fire deaths–no blame, no shame–no responsible parties and no stupid actions reported. Keep things looking clean by whatever methods necessary. Plenty of redactions, mum orders enforced, omissions, do not interview people doing burns that endangered people or were unauthorized, and so forth. You have the fire gods above looking down on you Wade–do their bidding or else.
My apologies if you have tried to reach me
480 559 1971 is my direct line only
If anyone else gave you a different number- they have been since changed today but the one above is the only valid one. My time at home is much important to me . I will give and give to you all and the Fire World but my time at home no matter who you are in this have to show me such respect because it is so tiny with all the training I do and my family and friends time is crucial for my happiness to keep doing this-
I know what happened today seem so “oh ok” no biggie (you are making a big deal out of it Joy) but I have all my security areas and wifi cameras areas hooked to certain lines and I do not want a soul to be privvy to such numbers at all. I hope you all understand that now.
The blog will be under construction as my co-author takes reign and has I.T. areas fixed finally-
I removed two names off my email list and one is from this site. I ask for unintentional outcomes upfront for “real” reasons just because I cannot explain them on technology- does not mean they have good reasons.
Thank you.
God Bless.
Good morning.
It’s been years since I sat and typed you a letter. I am doing it here on IM so I am not considered a bother to you privately. The last one you really wrote me was based on misinformation fed to you that led to my court case. I am sorry the wrongs of another did that to create a division between you and me. Yet even before that moment your email threads were not so kind towards the hikers so somewhere a long the way you made a judgment based on yours or anothers perception but we never have met.
Today and just today because I have lots to do before the Fire Season 2020 training and I only a have a few more days – in person only – we can meet today until 6:30pm. Because we are on the same path to discover the truth about the YH Fire, I ask that you sign a release and disclaimer and in return give you a huge piece to your quiet Investigation with the public announcement that from this day forth you will begin sharing your whole story as I have shared mine on IM and my website. I think it is sad that it takes me through releasing public records that shows your path behind the scenes. I want you all to keep GMHS family members ( not just of your choice select ones but all the loved ones even ones out of state or divorced/disconnected families ) and others with the same goal in the loop, especially Willis as he stated numerous times that was his role. Your ex husband should not have to learn about your son in the manner he is, by me dumping these public records like this to see how disingenuous Willis really has been. My apologies there. I am not doing any of this with ill intent but to start 2020 to show who is who in the aftermath of the Yarnell Hill Fire. To help you all comprehend why I sat on data this long. To show you the real time documents to make your own assessment versus just listen to me- see it for yourself.
Remember some you surrounded yourself with – it may be smart for you to pull public records to see how they write about you.
I feel that I am in the right to post all this (public records) – it was all of you secretly doing this and Willis never keeping all the families in the loop- that was wrong. The tool I plan to give you should tell you exactly where your son was all June 30, 2013. Are you ready to learn his whole mapping out on June 30, 2013 so you can have a proper “Staff Ride” product made? The product now is a true failure in my opinion.
The tool I offer you I hope you take it to learn exactly where your own copartner Willis was on June 30, 2013 as well as Musser and and Marquez and Cordes and Abel and and Hall and Moser and Blue Ridge and all the local or municipal FDs and Sciacca and Marty Cole and your other helper Alan Sinclair / Bea Day and the Flagstaff crew that one from that crew has a paper trail because he bought a boat after the fire in the town and YOU NEED TO KNOW Jason Clawson’s steps and let me say if you do it right than you will now where all the GMHS were that day too and we can even throw in Rowle Simmons and Denny Foulk in the loop and Clay Templin as well the man who took the Flag photo on the front of the SAIT SAIR too. There is a tool that shows just that so I ask you to take me very serious. If you work today and it won’t work to meet today – the time is here to figure out a good time to meet up but again you have to sign my release form before I give you one of your missing links.
I am ready – are you?
Are you ready to learn who or how Dan Frajio fit into June 30, 2013 and see his steps that day? or Ray Stidham? Gerald Wood? Dan Young? Ken Smith? Prescott (AZ-PDC)?
Again remember folks you surrounded yourself prove to have an agenda to protect in the emails being dumped right now and they have a goal to make a made for profit book. We all have every right to question them publicly.
I am ready to get real- are you?
If I see any bogus papers served my way – please note certain entities right now I do have the fortitude because I did do my investigation thoroughly even though MacLean made his private comments and judgement so before you toss a lawyer my way with any bogus stuff … this was personal for some what happened June 30, 2013 as they make it well known but I am the brave and brazen one to put the whole truth out (without a made for a profit book) because it affected the world not just the people there that day and the surroundings of them- The world deserves to know.
The time is here.
Thank you for your patience.
Two days ago I got this feedback:
Joy,
Just read Willis’ email to Mike Dudley and related comments. My first reaction is anger to him and others who agree with him. You hiked folks because it was the right thing to do and they accuse you of collecting fees for it!! I am stunned at their behavior and not in a good way.
Keep doing the right thing in seeking the truth :especially for the kids who lost their dads.
We all matter as much as we need to focus to the safety to the men and women out there right now and future ones – we still need to discuss fully June 30, 2013.
——————————————————
https://youtu.be/MPHYli7jd5A
Some glad morning when this life is o’er
I’ll fly away
To that home on God’s celestial shore
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away, oh glory, I’ll fly away
When I die, Hallelujah, by and by
I’ll fly away
Just a few more weary days and then
I’ll fly away
To that land where joy will never end
I’ll fly away
I’ll fly away, oh glory, I’ll fly away
When I die, Hallelujah, by and by
I’ll fly away
Oh I’ll fly away, oh glory, I’ll fly away in the morning
When I die, Hallelujah, by and by
I’ll fly away
Hi all.
I have been dropping in and reading time to time, but for various reasons I’ve also had to take some time out from the stresses and strains of the world.
RTS (much appreciated) has been dropping me some of the Freedom of Info releases and while I am absolutely astounded and floored by them – I should not really be. What is shocking is the amount of two facedness.
I’ve also realised they include my email address, so I may be “persona non grata” in your fair County/State/Country one day when I decide to take a trip to see some of you 🙂
I get that I am of no help what-so-ever to you, but I want you to know that you have support in what you are doing. To me, standing up to the untruths and injustices around YHF is a small battle in a global resistance to people being treated badly by the self-serving powers that be.
I hope to be commenting more.
If you ever need anything from me, then you should already have my contact info.
O.
https://youtu.be/1SiylvmFI_8
Otis- I already alerted them they did such and they need to notify the people they did that too.
the reply was:
Please remember to use your ethics when viewing the information you were given and do not abuse information that may have been given to you inadvertently.These files were worked on by multiple parties and may have been redacted with a slightly different view by each party.
————————————————–
Well, well, well …
they did the mess up but they put it back on me …
I told them I forwarded to the coroner and a few others before I had a chance to even open the content because they gave me a month liberty to review their one by one links to download before they lock it – not even a zip file kind on a very large scope PRR – and I am not the only one who gets the records due to the controversial nature. I may be the only one who asked for the records but at this point I am not the only one who has the records and I had stored it elsewhere because of the logged death treat. I use to be the only one who had the records.
so I just loaded and forwarded to my trusted folks so what those people have done or send it to – it is not my bad but once I opened it I did alert them that they need to notify folks and that I want that document they notified those folks. I will let you know when that happens.
That was the one with Willis and me email probably about you-
Yeah, I wondered all these years why I was treated so poorly and I got my answers … but they closed the request and since I take off in less than 10 days to the Academy I told them to re-think and open it back up because at this point I am taking the “close” request as denial of records and I will file a complaint by 1-20-20 if it is not re-opened. I was already told that some actions are under investigation because they used RETENTION SCHEDULE on an area that historical significance and should be permanent records.
Your baby must be ready for college about now 😉
Happy New Year
I am getting trained “Internationally” because of our time knowing you.
I am seeing a Global concern on my technology-
Joy,
Happy New Year to you too.
I have no problem with my email being out there, or how it got there, You are personally free to use my information as you see fit.
Some of those FOI (as we call them) responses do go a long way to show how badly you’ve all been treated. The court excerpt that “Charlie” posted yesterday was another WTF moment. You had all that directed at you personally. Facing it almost alone. It’s not right.
My little one is only a few years old now (but going on 14 sometimes you’d think, with what she comes out with!) We talk a lot about the planet, nature and environment, A lot more with Oz on fire now 🙁
So glad that you and Sonny are ok (that is ok as well as you can be, given everything you’re still going through)
I hope to be a more frequent guest here again.
Hi Otis!
I’m glad to read you are still with us!
Hi Possibly Pending New NWCG Chairman Woodsman,
Ahhhhh….heads up! If President Trump does wake up in the near future and make you the NWCG Chairman with Unlimited Powers, please hold off on making any changes in the current WF training until after I have finished my review because things are much worse than I and I thought they were pretty bad.
It’s kinda like Mideast Peace, everybody wants it, but nobody knows how to get it. And we should keep in mind what happened to both Anwar Sadat and Yitzhak Rabin when they tried to move forward with some concrete and positive steps. So…
Oh…and one more thing. Current WF training may also be much better than I thought it was? I just can’t tell which it is, which should tell you something?
In other words…I am starting to think the problem is so big, intractable and impossible to define, it might be also be impossible to correct. Just sayin’…
I can help with areas too, Gary
and it is not too far gone. There is H O P E.
Just have a few too many who we need to re-train
and if they don’t like the re-train then they know the door-
We do need to involve forensic weather into the training because it matters-
Also FYI, when I teach others some tools behind the scenes they are floored that there is EVIDENCE that exists where the GMHS and other key roles were on June 30, 2013 so I can help there-
I can teach the transparency tools.
Oh and SAIRs and CRPs are OUT too when we do this
Joy,
Now you are talking like old Jimmy Hickman who the the R-3 Director Of FIRE & Aviation Management back in my day. Jimmy was a real no nonsense kinda guy like probably all of them were and still are.
In 1982 (I think) Jimmy called everyone who was anyone in R-3 New Mexico to a huge meeting in the BIG conference room at the Regional Office in ABQ.
And then he did the same exact thing for everyone who was anyone in R-3 Arizona to a similar meeting but that one was held in Arizona, but the message was the same to both groups.
And the meetings started off and ended with the same exact words from Director Hickman, who was a man of few words because he never had to say anything twice or give much of an explanation to achieve the results he wanted.
Anyway….the meeting went exactly like the following because I remember it today like it was yesterday.
Director Hickman: The U.S. Forest Service has been given the lead for the nation, which includes local, state and other federal agencies to immediately begin converting from our current FIRE system (Large FIRE Organization, LFO) to NIMS, of which ICS is part of. You can either make the switch with with us…or you can find a new job. There’s the door.
Everyone else: Complete and total silence.
Director Hickman: Well okay then…since no one has anything to say…this meeting is now over. There’s the door.
Mr. Hickman didn’t say “with” twice, That was my error. Jimmy didn’t make mistakes.
those are the guys we grew up
NO NONSENSE BS kinda guys
We have adopted and enabled and endorsed a bunch of whiners to this new ways…That has to stop
I know I am almost reaching 50 but I am gungho to get to work after certified and do my part to lessen Fire Fatalities-
You are truly an inspiration to all of us, I just hope the system can adapt its ways to fit in with yours, or it will be a rocky road for all concerned indeed.
You are truly an inspiration to all of us, I just hope the system can adapt its ways to fit in with yours, or it will be a rocky road for all concerned indeed.
———————————————–
Thanks Gary
They will not only adapt but overcome
and with Rocky Road ice cream indeed-
(no magic hard shell included – you have to supply that)
No other way
As for bumps in roads – that’s how life is Gary
We need to talk straight and direct on some of the financial budgeting that is happening – seems big corps. are pushing small outfit engine folks to the side and we will fix that too.
https://www.prweb.com/releases/2018/04/prweb15385131.htm
Gary, there was much more to my post that disappeared. I agree with you the Jim Hickman was a great leader and role model in his time. The link was for a book he wrote and released.
Thanks for the link. I didn’t actually know any of Hickman’s background. It is all very interesting. I was hoping it was an autobiography of his career, but he sounds like quite a writer and I bet his book is still very interesting.
I forgive him for being a smokejumper
I didn’t know he write a book, I will definitely get one. He always kinda scared me. 🙂
WTF. You Asian now?
I didn’t know he write a book,
Yes, he write a book and the book he write seem like historical fiction or fiction
😂 WTF…did you finally find your sense of humor? I was starting to think the Forest Service never issued you one because they didn’t think you would need it to be a hotshot crew boss?
And just FYI to HAL 9000 and anyone else who may be interested in this nugget. Insiders never say U.S. Forest Service or USFS because it assumed they are talking about the United States Forest Service.
So it is always just the Forest Service or FS. That and the fact that the agency is known formally as the United States Department Of Agriculture-Forest Service or USDA Forest Service or USDA FS.
Now that is really getting down in the weeds, But I usually write USFS etc., just to avoid any confusion with our friends and partners in all of the state forestry agencies who have always stood beside us on the fire lines of America unlike the Johnnie-Come-Lately overpaid, underworked and whining Hybrids..
Gary, it sure took you long enough to find it. Geez. You need work on your SA
Why does Gary need to work on his San Antonio? I’m so confused.
Hey, Gary. You gotta admit, the kid’s got game! (Joy)
RTS,
Glad you know ya! (Most of the time…)
WTF…Over? My Situational Awareness is as sharp as it ever was! Well…maybe not?
Serious Academic (SA) and Professor Of WF Safety…yes. Guy with sense of humor…almost never.
And yes Woodsman 😂 (who has always had a sense of humor and an anger 😡management problem that rivals my own) Joy has finally run out of patience waiting for people to do the right thing…so she is helping them along.
Oh…and one more thing Professor. FYI…my WF Training Review & Analysis has revealed that having new WF learning the 10, 18 and LCES by rote is unavoidable. So…you and Bob P. got that one right.
Gulp…I was…I was…I was…I was wrong.🤤
Gary,
You still not get point. You SA not sharp as you think
Gary,
One more SA check.
READ and catch what actually posted? I bolded it for you too
“I want to share with anyone who is inter Steed in reading it.”
Well…I have never claimed to be the sharpest Pulaski in the tool rack. But…it’s down there somewhere, me take another look?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gEYpvl0tPVo
Nope…I got nothin’. You always have been just a little bit to cerebral for me to relate to on the same plane.
OK…OK…Got it. But this shouldn’t count because I caught it and corrected it precisely because I didn’t want you to ridicule me because as you already know, I am very vulnerable and quite fragile.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxx-here/#comment-481841
And I should add in Hickman’s defense, he wasn’t informing the FIRE rank and file of the new changes for the first time. The information that we were converting to NIMS had been out for quite some time and nobody was happy about it.
As I have written many times, the Forest Service is by tradition a traditional organization, and everyone considered NIMS and ICS with the interagency corruption of our gene pool that was going to come with to be the end of our world. Everyone knew that was the birth of the Hybrid firefighter and we were being told to not only be the midwifes, but raise the little bastards.
I seriously doubt Hickman was any happier about the pending change than the rest of us were. And of course there was widespread bitching (non gender specific) and opposition.
No…Director was telling us we were going to be good soldiers and follow the orders that were in effect coming directly from the President, or we would have to find new jobs.
As a matter of fact, Hickman was quite possibly unhappier than anyone else in R-3 FIRE because he had to implement the deliberate destruction of our world and no one knew how the new world would turn out. And I certainly think our worst fears were more than justified.
But…they saved a lot of money…I guess? Actually…I am quite sure it cost a lot more money, but it came from different pots of money collected from tax payers in different ways so it was just one giant shell game.
Hey Gary,
its been good catching up on your posts 🙂
As for the NWCG Chairman job, nah not for me.
The Scouts taught me how to pick a safe place for a fire and prep to put it out and stop it spreading, but wildfires…I’d be outta my depth. Joy would be a better choice than me.
“If trump does wakes up” – like thats gonna happen! 😀
Anyway, I’m here, I’m reading, I’ll make the coffee, tell bad jokes.
Good to see you still standing!
Actually…I wouldn’t wish that job on anyone, especially you…or me. That post was intended for the Woodsman, I was just combining the two messages into a single post, so it was misleading..
But..I am really glad you are still with us because with you, we are an international blog since I’m not sure if Rocksteady is still with or or not?
😎
Plus…you are the only one who appreciates “The Big Lebowski” as much as I do and recognize it for the truly great cinematic classic it is for the ages.
Oh…and one more thing. I think 🤔 being the Chairman Of the NWCG would be like herding cats. 🐈 Really Big and mean cats, like lions 🦁
true- the lions den has always been my nickname throughout my fire journey
And can you imagine having Trump in what appears to be a real live presence in your living room? It would be .startling to say the least. But it is happening in a few living rooms–soon I believe we will all have the home technology to have some of the worst politicos wind up invading our space whether we want it or not.
Trump appears in Sonny’s living room–“Sonny, I hear you have been bad mouthing me. This is your final warning to shut your fucking mouth.. The men in black are next.”
This one shows the redaction process in full swing to keep you ignorant of the facts: curtesy Joy: What you see is only about 10% of what was on the pages–the meat had black lines through it all. Public information of Historical significance redacted–has to be illegal:
From:
To:
“Melissa Bates” <
Archer,Jeffrey
Collier,Marsha
Cuka,Elisabeth
Kennedy,Jim
10/1/2018Page 2
“Sventek, Jaimie”
“Wilson, Julie”
Date:
Subject:
4/24/2015 7:20:35 AM
Fwd: Child safety day and Whiskey Row Marathon
~ Melissa Bates
http://our3monkees.blogspot.com/
—–Original Message—–
From: AMY ARMENTA <
To: Amanda Beno (Marsh-Spouse) ;
Cc: JP Vicente
Sent: Tue, Apr 21, 2015 1:14 pm
Subject: Child safety day and Whiskey Row Marathon
Hi all,
I am seeking volunteers for some fun upcoming events here in Prescott.
We have the Whiskey Row Marathon coming up on May 2nd at 7am-1:00pm where we will have a booth and merchandise to
sell as well as information on the 100 Club to give to the participants and by standers.
Child Safety Day May 16th 10am-2pm We are also in need of volunteers and your (families if possible) to join us on this fun
day at Prescott Honda to raise safety awareness to kids and parents. There will be Free Finger Prints & Photo ID for all
Kids, Child Safety Seat Inspections, CPR demonstration, Meet your local heroes from the local fire and police departments,
as well as lifeline. Popcorn, Dunk Tank for Charity and a Free BBQ Lunch.
Please let me know if you can and are willing to help out at any of the events. Thank you so much!
—
Sincerely,
Amy Armenta
[email protected]
office 928.899.6265
Administrative Assistant
Northern AZ office of the 100 Club of Arizo
They reopened the request this afternoon
the song was for you DND
You are my life Angel…
Play the song …
In our communities we are dying off but it was your actions I forever remember
before I pass I want to and need to thank you for your bravery and service. I know your dad is smiling and is so proud of you, I am proud of you.
We both are having life shifting moments, eh 😉
yet through it we just have to place our wings and soar …. and if our wings feel broken by the World and its harmful ways — remember we always have the arms of an angel to carry us through
When my husband went to work this past week I knew the new job he got which was an old job that paid very well with nice bonuses and pretty benefits but for integrity he walked into headquarters this morning and gave up a good job because it was the right thing to do. When you sense something is wrong please don’t allow the system to change you. Either make the change or walk away. I am proud of my husband. That was a good job too. Yet after hearing it all. To walk away from a pretty red bow job, that is not easy. That’s integrity.
Well, back to putting my heart and soul and downloading and releasing
It is so freeing
I held on to it
Almost justifying if I hold it than only I have to suffer the contents
not the world
But now you are seeing for your own eyes the ugliness and the facade.
you know what sucks in this all
I like the FOIA and PRR people who are doing my requests
THey may not like me and my challenging areas
I hope they know it is just their job – just a job –
Their anger or upsets should not be for me but for the first hand folks who keep holding on to the information. I am just documenting.
If you want to be huffy and puffy by my perseverance – take it to God and pray people come out and share versus grasping for straws in their lives right now …
I am only doing it because they are not talking
I hope when you go to my blog and you see all the people I ever knew – on post 4 and 5 – most there I stopped communications ages ago because I allowed it not because they did. This past week talking with my old church pals we all had healings. Like time went by but we are still going at it and we got to learn why way back then … that’s priceless to get that opportunity. Some of us lost a loved one on June 30, 2013 and after – we don’t get those opportunities like that with those who are no longer here – just the remembering; the memories. Yet the top memory I have is one of the GMHS loved ones story and I am praying their story is told in 2020 because their mission in life is for sure God-led. It’s not Hollywood or Heroism but it L O V E in it purest forms.
Joy,
There are no coincidences in life….RTS and I both agreed to that after we re-connected in July of 2018. I held onto more anger, sorrow and pain than anyone should’ve until I met GS in one of the most beautiful towns in Arizona. I have always loved the Mogollon Rim and the features in each town it runs through. I remember working on a few ranches as a young man in Skull Valley, Williamson Valley and one near Yarnell. I was never a real Cowboy, nor did I rodeo or work extensively with cattle like some of my buddies did their whole lives. I did however get the opportunity to really see parts of Arizona that most will never see. Living there provided a healing force that I can’t explain but, I know that you, RTS and allot of friends and family would agree it is a special place. I met RTS in 1996 on the “Three Peaks Fire” just east of Roosevelt lake. I had the great opportunity to work for three of some of the best Leaders the IHC world has ever produced. They asked RTS to sit with us and share his amazing fire behavior knowledge with all of us. He went into great detail and had everyone’s attention as he took us through a few fires he and his crew were on that year and in 1995. He was kind, sharp and spoke with strong Leadership presence. That quality sadly has been watered down to the point that people are afraid to speak up strongly on fires as the HR tent is ready to pounce on anyone with tender scruples. Being in-charge and Leading is the trait that has been almost taken away from the fire service in some places. Group think and fearing that someone may not take decisive, sharp and direct orders has injured some of the culture of “Old School”. The “Old School” I speak of is exactly this, Strong Leadership, morals, values, dedication, TRUTH. It is also Followeship, leading up the right way and basing all of your decisions on a simple formula.
The formula that has kept so many safe and free from injury, near miss or death is this. Take L.C.E.S. add the 10 standard fire orders (not suggestions) and observe the 18 Watch-outs form as the day or night progresses. Yes the 18’s will pop up on every fire. As they do or as you apply risk/hazard analysis the indicators that show each firefighter what could or will happen next will guide us through an incident safely. I applied this to any type of emergency call we were on. Being a sound and strong Leader means that you are a student of fire. You must immerse yourself in all aspects of the job you are being tasked to do. Knowing your people and their strengths, or weaknesses makes your team strong. Setting realistic goals and trigger-points and STICKING TO THEM is a huge part of LEADERSHIP.
Knowing when to say “No” and doing nothing is doing something. Sitting in a true safety zone until conditions change to realistically re-engage is smart firefighting. Denying an assignment because it violates the ROE’s is responsible leadership. Attempting to safely mitigate hazards utilizing the ROE’s is a good thing as long as you are prepared for the possibility of extreme fire behavior. Depending on aircraft that can be quickly taken away for a new start that threatens structures for example is bad business. If we truly look back at the fires that killed firefighters it will lead you to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines. On an initial attack fire or on a campaign fire not adhering to the Downhill-Indirect guidelines is madness. Allowing the “Moment” or other visual factors to blind you from thorough scouting and safe plans execution has led so many to devastation.
What I just said was a gift given to me and to many others. Some would say that there are too many “Rules” to memorize and that fatality fires “Just happen”. It is not luck that a lot of firefighters go un-harmed and retire knowing they did their best to Lead and follow. Why would we lower the bar because some say there are too many rules to memorize? Why would anyone go pubic on forums or on heavily visited websites and say that we can not avoid firefighter fatalities? I look at Mr. RTS and Mr. Gary Olson and know they applied sound judgement based upon their assessments based upon tangible and realistic ROE’s. Long careers leading firefighters, assuring that their people had the best training, opportunities and safety each day. There is a huge difference between a Leader and a supervisor. A leader assumes all responsibility and will never ask or put their people in known harms way or ask them to do something they wouldn’t do. A supervisor knows only the position and not the dedication it requires to keep their firefighters safe. A leader will draw a line between themselves and their firefighters. A leaders voice is heard, taken seriously and is respected for their actions, not words. As I move onto another chapter in my Firefighting career I pray for the new firefighters that only know what they are told. I hope that they are expected to learn the ROE’s, stick to them and become students of fire. There isn’t room for anything less in my opinion.
Accountability is a 14 letter word that eludes so many. I pray that the fire service in general has an uprising of true Leadership and the culture of “the middle of the fence” is dismantled. OK, enough on the equation.
Joy I am so blessed to have gotten to be a part of your life, however small or big it has been, you and RTS have provided a conduit for healing. For years I sat wondering why the truth wasn’t being made publicly known about the loss of the men. I wondered why after the SKM fire, true subject matter experts like Mr. Putnam were being excluded from exposing the truth so that we could truly make a shift in finite safety. I do not consider authors or magicians to be the final word on fatality fires or firefighting. I do believe that if you have a position of power that allows the truth to be told, tell the truth. Diverting from it loads the revolver for the next generation to fail Allowing people to duck accountability at all levels has created a very destructive atmosphere. It is no secret that on all of the fatality fires during my two and a half decades had individuals at all levels that dodged accountability.
I believe that you and the many co-authors of your/their work will bring truth to light. I am not surprised to read the factual information that you have provided after years of hard work. I know your love for the men that passed away on June 30th 2013. I know that God gave you a gift that has finally helped expose the reality of bad choices. It is there for any firefighter with a pulse to see that the ROE’s were violated on all counts. There is a giant gap between structural firefighting and Wildland firefighting. Doing both without a solid foundation in both is a recipe for disaster. Pride is a double edged sword. Being proud of the excellent job one may have done is good. Allowing Pride to drive a decision is deadly. We lose more fires than we catch, that is more than OK. Weather is a variable we will never control, accepting that is OK too. We can control how we employ tactics based upon the topographical arena we are presented with. The same goes with how we use fire, do structure protection and time of day chosen to attack a fire.
I was on the “Old Fire” and the “Grand Prix” fire years ago. we lost thousands of homes because we couldn’t safely engage. It was a hard pill to swallow but in the end we saved more homes and lives, including the firefighters on both incidents. There isn’t a home including my own worth one human beings life. It is hard to deny or to disengage from homes that aren’t savable. I have shed tears and tossed chunks over the loss of homes we were asked to protect. Not one SGS has belittled me or our strike teams for making safe choices. It is hard to not be a moth to a flame but assessing hazards is our responsibility. Having a solid foundation of Wildland firefighting in the urban interface in multiple fuels types is a must. Envisioning the worst case scenario at all times is our responsibility.
Not having a plan for when the “Shit hits the fan” is insanity. Having a true escape route(s) to safety that are timed for the slowest person or apparatus based upon the worst thing that could occur is one of the many reasons we lose firefighters. Early on after YHF, I took the information presented and weighed the ROE’s against the end event that occurred. just like you I was blasted for talking about the events that led to the loss of life and friends. I have no doubt and share the same opinion as DW in regards to the recorded frequencies and how people were or were not interviewed. If we look at the actions of our fellow comrades from a ROE standpoint, LCES and the Downhill Indirect guidelines were enough to stop the descent. The flank of fire shown in the Mackenzie video would be enough for me personally to asses all actions on the worst case scenario. I have never felt like a piece of “Shit” for sitting in the cold black during the “Prime time” for active and extreme fire behavior.
After working in the heat all day and as the fire transitioned into a very active backing flank fire (with T-cells) in the immediate area of influence, the men were tired, most likely low on water and energy. Blood sugars were most likely low affecting the decisions of many people on the entire fire. The IC and both OPS chiefs have a responsibility to be the ones to call a time out early. When trigger points hit, expected or not the Command presence must be there to order all of the firefighters to disengage and stand by in their safety zones. I get that I am quarterbacking this. But, I can’t count the times where my leaders have called time out regardless of the values at risk and we sat safely in a good safety zone. There is a huge difference between a Safety Zone and a Deployment Zone, I will not discuss this as we know how it ended.
Joy, you hike, you also go to school to learn as much as you can about firefighting in the Wildland. You and Sonny saw everything from a first hand account and as adults that know your mountains I know what you saw struck you as insane. I agree with you both and if I was an IC, OPS or a DIVS on a fire you saw in an area you knew well I would’ve picked your brain on everything. Heck, our ROE’s tell us to talk to the locals for intel, roads, two tracks and the weather we can expect. Being dismissed ultimately set a pace that put the entire fire behind the power curve. You and other locals were denied the opportunity to help, look at day one and so on.
I appreciate you and I am ashamed that you, RTS and so many have been treated like crap for so long. You both are not alone as you are very aware the shift in perception and truth. Your hard work and dedication to truly honor the fallen is Leadership. It is not disrespectful to replay what occurred or to demand all of the documentation as a student of fire or as a tax payer. Your gift has put you closer to what is real and what was presented. If I were to fall from a LODD I would want all of the information to be made clear for all to see so that my fellow firefighters could learn and grow as leaders. I know of one man that perished that lived by the same code.
It is a shame to have asked honest and direct questions to one of the people tasked to honestly report the findings of YHF and to be banished for it. Tugging on the tail of the snake sometimes means a bite but, I am only stronger for it. I have never been a yes person but my firefighters respect me as do many in the country. I learned a long time ago that there isn’t room for indifference or middle of the road thinking in our profession. You can be nice and still keep your people safe. There is a time to be a dick but always following up with a solution. When I say Dick I mean holding the ground for safety, remembering the ones the died and vowing to be the voice of reason when things go south. Things can go south as long as you are prepared for it.
You are my Angel too showing me wisdom, care and integrity. I owe you and RTS so much for listening and helping me and my own through things I thought were impossible. I am proud of you for your work, for your drive and for your views in life. I am grateful for you and RTS demanding that change occurs. This forum as well as YHFR are changing even the most closed minds. JD allowing a place for change and truth to occur and all of the highly skilled and intelligent contributors here and on YHFR are changing the world. Time can heal wounds once the truth is told.
I am grateful and, with an open heart and I look to the near future for the next chapter in life. I may be a civilian now but with that brings the promise of retribution and accountability for those that continue to make terrible decisions as civil servants with public trust I will expound in a week or so. Thank you Joy, RTS and to all of you here, you all have made a huge difference that will change the world of firefighting and the truth.
Downhillndirect
Joy if worse comes to worse get that Yurt —
Good to hear from Otis again. Wow, Joy has finally come forward with her material. There is a time to laugh and a time to cry. She has done well with her patience and timing. Her patience has paid off with information that otherwise would have never surfaced.
I am a witness to her constant and vigilant effort to get the truth documented and how the players of the cover up have worked so diligently to keep the facts unknown. I do believe this was one of her important life’s work and if destiny had anything to do with it, she turned up at the right place and at the right time with her camera and the innate ability to not accept anything but the truth. I am totally amazed at her abilities and perseverance and honored to have a small part supporting her in uncovering the truth about Yarnell and the terrible facts of those 19 deaths.
I also would not have known about the extreme death count among the elderly after the massive retardant dumps about Yarnell had Joy not informed me. Her photographic memory can recollect every soul that lived in Yarnell and Glen Isla,
I would never have taken time to see the damages that the retardant can have on health, environment, its deadly effects on aquatic life even after it seeps in rain and snow runoff into rivers and oceans where it also creates dead zones. So we not only have ocean dead zones, we have village dead zones–whole blocks of Yarnell have death signs at their door after the retardant drops. Where I lived and both ways are people now deceased and I can only connect this extreme death rate to the chemicals in the retardant.
I think the librarian was the only one left alive–and she like I soon after the fire fell down with a heart attack. She had open heart surgery and was saved–I do not know if she is still alive. Joy would know, and can name everyone down that street that is now dead.
I had at one time believed that the ammonium nitrate and phosphates were an inert product and if anything, because they are used as fertilizers would be good to disperse. How wrong I was. After some research I came to understand why the wild land fire fighter retires and can expect to be visiting the medical profession if he is alive. This stuff takes time to rear its ugly work–the young get by for a long time unless they happen to have weak immune systems. If they do they will suffer as do the older people. But as the young miner thinks, we can do.
Later in life you begin to understand that the corporations and people involved in the spreading of these retardant toxins have but one interest–to make money and they do. A billion dollar industry is tough to challenge since they can hire the best psychologists to sell their products, the best lawyers to defend themselves and challenge any who would protest, and the best lobbyists to promote their chemicals. They can make unlimited contributions to politicos and look you in the eye and tell you the retardant and unknown added chemicals are safe to your health, the environment, aquatic life, fish and the oceans. But how many want the agent orange looking retardant dumped in their back yards.
Joy–you have done well but I happen to know even at your younger age the retardant has affected you. You have not been spared its effects. And I remember you wading in that black runoff after the fire,–there are photos of that. I even suspected that chemical solution then–but we did not know. People need to know and if they doubt what I say, do a bit of research–and that will tell the tale–something many Yarnellites can not do.
About the rumor that Joy and I were charging–that is funny. We did all our hikes free Much of the time we where coming from Aguila where I had moved from Yarnell. Still after years we were hiking individuals there-Joy always reminded me of the significance and importance of the hikes to people that needed to know and would take their own time to honor the fallen.
We never were paid for any hike and did it free. However some nice individuals would buy us a meal and I remember a couple fellows left me a bottle of good whiskey as a surprise gift by their own free will and kindness. But no one was asked for money or expected to pay anything for a hike. It would be unconscionable to charge concerning such a tragedy.
From:
To:
Date:
Subject:
Willis,Darrell
“Deanna Thompson” <
2/2/2015 10:47:04 AM
RE: Another vehicle
Deanna,
Thanks for the e-mail. The pick-up is a Central Yavapai Fire District Pick-up. If it is at Helms at 0530 on 6/30/13 it is
Gary Cordes. If it is later, it is either Cordes or Carrothers.
Bruce Olsen was the BLM fuels guy I met when I arrived at YH, he led me into Double Bar A Ranch, introduced me to
the caretaker, road with me around the area to orient me to the area. He gave me the only map (BLM) that I ever
saw on the incident other than the hand drawn map of the Model Creek structures. He knew the area and the
potential there more than anyone on the fire. He left about 0300 on June 30 th because he was so tired. I think I saw
him after the deployment at Yarnell. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
1700 Iron Springs Road
Prescott, AZ 86305
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
From: Deanna Thompson [mailto:
Sent: Monday, February 02, 2015 10:35 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: Another vehicle
Good morning Chief,
I heard from Deborah/Holly that you are facing ramifications for telling the truth for Amanda and Roxanne? I can't
imagine how the truth, namely ifthose guys were firefighters who worked in hazardous conditions…some people just
don't get it Chief. I'm so sorry to hear this and pray she is exaggerating.
If I could tell you how many times I've heard the past week "these guys were told not to talk" or "be careful what you
say"–specifically to me! One of my friends in R3 was basically warned to be careful what he said to ME and this came
per Clay Templin! I don't even know Clay Templin. My mind automatically turns to thinking what are they hiding? It's
not like I'm out there publicly making things up about the YHF, …I'm only seeking the entire story so why does that
bother people/firefighters so much? And I find that feeling exists more in the USFS and YHF was a State fire with
really very few USFS resources on it. Does it come down to the USFS being afraid they will get caught up in the
lawsuits somehow iftheir people talk? I apologize for sort of unloading on you but I think you probably understand.
Do you know who's vehicle this is? I have a couple ideas who it could be but I'm not 100% sure. Goes into the
Helm's 0530 but video doesn't show them leaving on June 30 and this Guadiana video (USB Yarnell Hill 020) screen
shot shows it parked along HWY 89 with what looks like maybe Sciacca and whomever was driving around in the blue
pickup with team magnets on it.
10/1/2018Page 2
Also, when you have time I would like to hear about what you know of Bruce Olson. He is totally under the radar and
yet was on the YHF the entire time (you make reference to him your Unit Log), starting with the night of June 28.
Considering he was a BLM fuels guy he may have had some input into operations and strategy and tactics.
One more thing between you and I, I will hopefully be talking to some of the Glendale FD guys who were working for
Cordes in Yarnell and Glen Ilah…I've named 9 plus who ever was in E-156 that isn't in ROSS who have never been
interviewed. Please pray this happens.
Thanks again for your time and hang in there.
Deanna
Otis beware–the Brit Tech (Communication Corp Giants) are designing a microchip that will implant into the brain. It will record every thought and idea the individual has. It is slated to be finished by 2025 and the project is called “Soul Catcher 2025”.
I think the FS already has one.
https://zoom.us/
What would you all think if we get some key folks and we all meet up of all agencies and all walks of life and we make a video meeting so is ZOOM a place you think?
ZOOM – the communication software so if you cannot attend in person
you can join the meeting electronically. It also is a video documentation of the meeting.
Would that be a good platform? Did that work for Willis and his team that platform? Zoom?
Let me read on … maybe it did … so much to read ….
(scratch head)
Or maybe a fillum or music video. Sonny can play the guitar and I will sing. Or maybe we can pull the first hand folks into the film or maybe see who is left in Yarnell that is not dead or diseased and get their accounts. I think 2020 should focus more on all our stories even the aftermath how it has touched or done for Diane Lomas and her life.
All our stories.
Reach me if you think this is the way to go-
Meanwhile, go to the GMHS loved ones who’s focus are the people affected in real time like Tom’s site- (HEALING HAVEN FOUNDATION – donate today to them)
So far that site and their mission is the TOP for getting in there and getting involved with no agendas…the purity as I watch them is outstanding. I hope one day to have the funds because I would for sure donate to them over some of the others … I have seen first hand how those two touched lives with a person who was severely affected by the YHF. Heavenly they are … perfect name for their God-led mission.
Also a great item that has been healing me and I say go check it out with your doctor-
VitalzymXe – Professional Strength Systemic Enzymes
Beats last year’s rattlesnake venom therapy I did.
I am trying to resist heading out to the hospital–hospitals not my style except the last resort.
It is sometimes hard to understand how there was so much cover up and the crony system could be so ingrained into the system–Prescott area of cronies quite the example. Here is a copy of actual court records there where Joy was falsely accused and the parties involved–supposedly of religious character could falsely testify so beno Amanda could have her way and put blight and restraining orders on Joy.
You have to know that Willis had no knowledge of any correspondence or any associations that Joy and Amanda would have had. He could not have been there even if there had been an association–because first off the only association that I was witness of was the casual meeting of Joy where only a cordial greeting was made inside the Congress gas station–something witnessed by the cashier and myself. And it was a short hello and a quck departure of Amanda as if she had pressed business to do.
That was the sole visitation they had that I know of and I believe one Email that Joy sent to Amanda giving her condolances and offering to be of assistance in any way.
But Amanda had word that the hikers were taking people up to the area, even government investigators and firemen–not to the death spot but on the two track above. However we did follow the ADOSH investigators to the death spot and hike them all the route the GMHS crew took. And as you see they took the tack that this was not an accident, but something caused by careless action by their fines in the maximum allowable amount to the FS.
But here is the greatest example of cronyism in Prescott–that religious training does not always hold well with people so they maintain truthfulness as we see here with Willis whom cronies with Amanda and the Judge.
Court documents::
Willis went to the hearing at the REQUEST of Amanda Beno-Marsh,
was willingly CALLED as a witness BY Amanda Beno-Marsh,
and testified in SUPPORT of Amanda Beno-Marsh.
It was probably very much BECAUSE Willis ended up ‘agreeing’ ( in court ) with Amanda Beno-Marsh’s position that
the bogus restraining order was left in place by Judge Arthur Markham.
Here ( again ) is Willis’ actual court appearance that day, and exactly what transpired…
=========================================================================================
Judge Arthur Markham: Ms. Collura, you still have the chance to ask questions of Ms. Beno-Marsh, but we’re
gonna let you do that later on, okay? So I haven’t forgotten your right to ask questions.
Ms. Beno-Marsh… go ahead and call a witness.
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Chief Willis?
Judge Arthur Markham: Allright. We’re gonna have you bein’ a little bit more formal. Come up and have a seat, please.
( Darrell Willis takes the stand )
Judge Arthur Markham: Go ahead and have a seat. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Darrell Willis: I do.
Judge Arthur Markham: Thank you. Go ahead and tell us your name.
Darrell Willis: Darrell Willis.
Judge Arthur Markham: Allright. You may proceed, Ms. Beno-Marsh.
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Do you believe that there’s a threat of harassment to me and other family members by Joy Collura?
( 4 second pause )
Darrell Willis: I guess that most… uh… I believe there is a lotta contact that’s not required of numerous…
I should say several… Granite Mountain nineteen family members. There’s unwanted contact is what I know about as a fact.
Amanda Beno-Marsh: And have you seen a change in behavior… of Joy Collura’s behavior?
Darrell Willis: Uhm… yea… I guess I would have to say that.
From the first day there seems to be… when I had an email early on after the tragedy I asked them for
a clarification, because what I saw out on the the site about the size of the brush wasn’t quite the
height that she and Sonny had stated, and I think that’s been proven that it was taller than three or
four foot brush that was involved. And then after that point there’s been good and there’s been… you know…
questionable… er… you know… uh… good. I… uh… she’s never done anything towards me but I’ve seen that with the…
Judge Arthur Markham: ( Interrupting ) Understood… but again… that… rather than speaking collectively
of the the nineteen or the nineteen’s families… or the… the chief Willis all by himself… if we could
try to focus in… uh… questions… as far… as far as Ms. Collura’s alleged behavior towards Ms. Marsh…
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Sure.
Judge Arthur Markham: …because that’s what this hearing is about.
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Yea. Uhm… have you seen change in behavior where… with her… uh… emails and things
that I have shown you, and stuff on InvestigativeMEDIA that I have shown you, that’s indicated there’s
been a change in behavior… uhm… towards me… from Joy Collura?
Darrell Willis: I think there’s been a focus and a change… uhm… between.. at you in particular… yes.
Amanda Beno-Marsh: I… I believe that it’s…
Judge Arthur Markham: ( Interrupting ) Are you done asking questions?
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Uhm… no. Uhm… let me rephrase that.
( 4 second pause )
Amanda Beno-Marsh: Do you… what… what would be your… how would you describe the behavior?
What is the word you would use to describe the behavior?
Darrell Willis: Hmm. ( pause ) Even though I don’t know Joy personally… uh… I don’t know if she has up and
down days… those kinds a things… I guess it is somewhat a harassment when ya ask somebody to leave ya
alone… and they don’t… and as high profile as this is it’s concerning to me that it’s concerning
you… is what I am… or other family members that I am in contact with. It just adds to the drama of
people trying to get… move forward. Not get over it. We’ll never
Sonny, this is UNf**king believable that Joy had to endure this BS!
“Amanda Beno-Marsh: And have you seen a change in behavior… of Joy Collura’s behavior?
“Darrell Willis: Uhm… yea… I guess I would have to say that.
From the first day there seems to be… when I had an email early on after the tragedy I asked them for a clarification, because what I saw out on the the site about the size of the brush wasn’t quite the height that she and Sonny had stated, and I think that’s been proven that it was taller than three or four foot brush that was involved. And then after that point there’s been good and there’s been… you know… questionable… er… you know… uh… good. I… uh… she’s never done anything towards me but I’ve seen that with the…” (emphasis added)
Willis is stammering all through this answer and dodging the question.
Joy has posted photos on her website somewhere that shows the chaparral in the deployment / fatality site bowl before it burned to be about waist high or what Willis said “three or four foot.”
( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com )
And I remember Willis’ ten foot brush remarks were based on the brush being that high in certain places. From Joy’s website: “How does one effectively lead by example? Extreme ownership must apply …” published July 5, 2018
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/07/05/How-does-one-effectively-lead-by-example-Extreme-ownership-must-apply- )
The following is based on the July 2013 YH Fire and GMHS fatality site news conference. Both Willis’s comments about the “ ten foot high ” chaparral and Joy’s rejoinders are in bold below.
He made these following statements:
“… they were doing their work all day long (1:58) I was there. I disagree. When I saw them many times throughout that day, they were at a standstill or rest.
“… it was ten foot chaparral , very volatile fuel …” (2:39) This comment was my very first reason why I reached out to Willis to correct him on that specific area, the box canyon. The truth of the matter is the chaparral was waist-high and NOT ten foot high as he claimed. I showed him my photos that i took of the same area on June 30, 2013 before the men died.
“… they started to move down that hill in that drainage (5:30)… just imagine having brush in that drainage ten foot high … (5:46), ….”
“ Pure bullshit, especially the part about the ten foot chaparral. “it’s a bullshit. ”
And then the next question posed to Willis: “Amanda Beno-Marsh: Do you… what… what would be your… how would you describe the behavior? What is the word you would use to describe the behavior?”
And then Willis once again stumbles all over himself avoiding this one while sucking up to AB-M.
“Darrell Willis: Hmm. ( pause ) Even though I don’t know Joy personally… uh… I don’t know if she has up and down days… those kinds a things… I guess it is somewhat a harassment when ya ask somebody to leave ya alone… and they don’t… and as high profile as this is it’s concerning to me that it’s concerning you … is what I am… or other family members that I am in contact with. It just adds to the drama of people trying to get… move forward. Not get over it. We’ll never …”
I am sure that especially Joy, and everyone else close to this situation, changed in some way after this YH Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy! How could you avoid it? It’s going on seven years later and many of us are STILL impacted by this event that we are trying to reveal the truth about. And there are those that seem to want to bury it deep or rewrite history with their fairy tale versions of what occurred and why.
Joy – I’m sorry you had to wade through that feculence and still wading through it. Thank you for revealing these PFD FOIA and PRRs on the June 30, 2013, YH Fire. Keep up the good fight and press on and run the race that is set before you with endurance. (Hebrews 12)
Thee was a donate button on this one –you can join the Eric Marsh Foundation here: curtesy of Joy
From:
To:
Date:
Subject:
Wiita,Jennifer
[email protected]
6/25/2018 8:02:35 AM
FW: Eric Marsh Foundation 5 Five Year Anniversary – Please Support Us!
From: Amanda Marsh [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Saturday, June 23, 2018 2:38 PM
To: Sales Tax
Subject: Eric Marsh Foundation 5 Five Year Anniversary – Please Support Us!
Hello ,
June 30th is the five (5) year anniversary of the Granite Mountain Hotshots Last Alarm.
19 Hotshots perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona in 2013. Eric Marsh, the GMHS
Superintendant, died with his crew members on that day leaving a great void in the lives of
so many people who loved and cherished every Granite Mountain Hotshot that was lost
that last day of June.
In 2014, I established the Eric Marsh Foundation (a 501c3 nonprofit organization) to serve
the Wildland Firefighting Community in a positive way. Today, the Foundation provides
financial support to next-of-kin of wildland firefighters who perish in the line of duty.
Additionally, we provide help to firefighters suffering from PTSD – a serious challenge
faced by many firefighters today.
During this anniversary time, I ask that you consider supporting our foundation
and the important work we do! Your support could help save a firefighter’s life by
providing counseling and support for someone struggling with PTSD. Your
financial contribution will also help families coping with the loss of a loved one in
the line of duty.
Please join us TODAY in our CAMPAIGN to help those that give so much and ask for so
little in return!
10/1/2018Page 2
Amanda Marsh
Widow of Eric Marsh
Eric Marsh Foundation
https://youtu.be/92B37aXykYw ( Willie Jones STUNS Simon Cowell )
Sonny, maybe one day the world will see you belt out “Green Back Dollar won’t you come back home” … maybe pull in Willie in video above to do those low parts….
You are an original. There are people who robbed us the proper aftermath to the YHF. Those people need to be at the front. Our communities are affected health wise- I know your health as the decades passed by- YHF affected us both health wise. I know what you mean about hospitals – I suffered one of the hardest cases back 15 years ago because of their errors –
Hard for me to go to-
Get well!
Stay the course.
We have a lot to do-
watch the video, Sonny
I miss watching the show with you when we were on the trails…
Essiac tea and rest. That lung pain thing isn’t the heart–I have that.
Joy that kid is great–the next Charile Pride.
Pretty soon you will be getting your bathides right in your living room. This necessity of Professor worship will dissolve although there are a few courses that you will need to go to the University facilities to complete. Some of the sciences and use of things such as seismographs and other hands on experience will be required, But even those things can be overcome.
Performances of Roy Oberson are done on stage by hologram so that audiences are believing they are seeing him live until the curtain is drawn. So that professor will appear right in your living room standing on your fine carpet–my tiled trailer floor–and you will think he is real until you put your hand through him.
You Nazis will be able to bring Hitler back–and I figure he will be able to speak to you in the Queen’s English or whatever language you choose to give you the Nazi boost you might want. Of course Big Brother will be there as well and want to know why you are entertaining yourself with Nazi propaganda–Big Brother can be a jealous god.
I have to believe the technology is alien in nature and what I had once seen was really holograms. The hologram knowledge is old science though secret CIA knowledge for a long time. Remember, the CIA used that technology during the Cuban Missile Crisis times to put the Virgin Mary in the skies of Cuba. You have to know with the improved technology we will be seeing this stuff in our homes. It will be an adjunct to the coming New World Order–and won’t we be amazed and entertained by the advent of the New World Order that Bush, Johnson, Reagan, and even Trump had entertained the idea of and even fostered the advent of.
Times are getting interesting–The Catholic Fathers have even admitted that there could be life out there and that we are not so privileged to be the only game in the Universe. The gods that be have been floating around for a long time–It would do you well to look at the so much of the Christian art with UFO’s–even some with Christ on the Cross with UFO’s above and some of the Virgin Mary and Child–one with an obvious UFO and a man in the background looking up at it. These are very old paintings–Does the Catholic Church know something all along that they will not tell? There is a photo with a UFO in the sky during the death procession of Paul 11 in 2005.
Well there are said to be 52 miles of tunnel under the Popes power seat–and no one is allowed there except a very few at the top level. Sounds like the Mormon control system doesn’t it. But whether there are alien skeletons there is debatable.
So gear yourself up for some pleasant surprises and maybe some that are not so pleasant. I was seeing where they already take a cadaver, wash the heart into a white situation called a ghost heart and then inject stem cells–the ghost comes back to life and actually starts beating with a flesh tone.
I have to believe there is technology that only a few are allowed to know–need to know basis such as you see in the wild land fire government situations. It makes it easy for a few to run the show when the general public and lower tiers of the tower are compartmentalized and minimized.
The fact is they would not need the “need to know” method (except for a few) for the most part, since plenty do not want to know unless it is the score of the latest basketball shoot out.
Joy–I remember that antenna for sure and it was between Shrine and Sesame dirt path. Was that where the fusee material was found and analyzed? I looked at those chemicals–sulfur, iron, strontium etc. –they knew right away what they meant and why they were going to send the info to the state investigators. So there were burns in progress but denials. DND was correct in his posts, of that I am certain. But it would be nice to have evidence to back his statements.
Here is what Joy found in records concerning material picked up and analyzed in an area where likely a burn was taking place. Joy might know the exact location since she was hiking these people.
o:
asinclair
“Holly Neill” <
jharwood
Willis,Darrell
deborah.pfingsto
Date:
Subject:
6/3/2014 2:18:17 PM
Re: any ideas
Here is what I found today……
Using a Bruker Tracer 3-5, X-ray Florescence Spectrometer (XRF), I had both samples analyzed. The
“white stuff” and “black thing”.
This is non conclusive information as the lab is not official but I think the results warrant further
investigation.
“White stuff” positive for:
Iron
Calcium
Suffer
And “abundant” strontium
“Black thing” positive for:
Silicon
Strontium
Calcium
Potassium
Alan
—- Holly Neill wrote:
>
> I agree. I am willing to wait on promising lab results before these notifications occur. It is a good solid
plan if the results are positive, they would be the backbone of the supporting documentation. It is good
to know in advance what options we have available to move forward quickly with positive test results. I’ll
talk with Mac about other entities and notifications as well.
> Group hug,
> H.
>
>
> —–Original Message—–
> From: asinclair13 To: jharwood78 ; Willis,Darrell ; Deborah
Pfingston
> Cc: Holly Neill
> Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 8:51 am
> Subject: RE: Fw: any ideas
>
>
10/1/2018Page 2
> I agree with Darrell, I should have some results by noon.
> —- “Willis wrote:
> > Here is another thought. I really like this documentation, I would like to
> see what comes of the test. If the results are promising I suggest that I send
> this to ADOSH (this would be my third communication with them on these new
> revelations and notify them that I would be taking this to a higher authority.
> And you all can do what you see fit to notify others or get other entities
> involved. I would also send this to people I know how to contact on the SAIT
> team. What are your thoughts? DW
>>
> > Darrell Willis, Division Chief
> > Prescott Fire Department
> > 333 White Spar Road
> > Prescott, AZ 86303
> > (928)777-1701 Office
> > (928)776-1890 Fax
> > (928)925-7311 Cell
> > Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
>>
> > From: Deborah Pfingston [mailto:
> > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:26 AM
> > To: jharwood
> > Cc: Holly Neill; asinclair
; Willis,Darrell
> > Subject: Re: Fw: any ideas
>>
> > Doug,
>>
> > Your document is amazing! I have attached two papers: one being the edits
> highlighted to show you my suggested changes and the other updated with the
> changes. Please note these are just suggestions, I support whatever you choose
> to submit.
>>
> > Thank you for all you are doing. The truth will be exposed and lives will be
> saved because of your work.
>>
> > Deborah
>>
> > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 10:31 PM, jharwood
> wrote:
> > Let me know what you think. Thanks Doug
>>
> > Please note: forwarded message attached
>>
> > From: “Harwood,Doug” <[email protected]>
> > To: “jharwood
>
> > Subject:
> > Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 22:26:21 -0700
>>
10/1/2018Page 3
>>
>>
>>
> > ____________________________________________________________
> > Do THIS before eating carbs (every time)
> > 1 EASY tip to increase fat-burning, lower blood sugar & decrease fat storage
> > info.
fixyourbloodsugar.com
>>
>>
>>
> > —
> > Deborah Pfingston M.Ed.
>>
> > “Christopher Robin?,” whispered Pooh. “Yes, Pooh Bear?” “I’ll never not
> remember you… ever.”
Well, My My, there was a government retardant study program going on during the Yarnell dumping of retardant. We are afterall the guinea pigs I thought we might be. And now, like the black men that were told they were treated for syphillis, yet were not, but only being used as lab rats to see how the disease developed in them over 40 years–then now we have a new government experiment to see how many survive in the aftermath of the retardant drops at Yarnell? You do not hear much being said about the many deaths at Yarnell and the main media won’t even touch the topic despite the double dosage Yarnell got. You can bet these fellows working for the government are keeping tabs but like the ongoing study of the black men with syphilis, the Yarnellites won’t be told of the real purpose–unless we get a whistleblower such in 73 that stopped the ongoing observation of blacks with syphilis with no treatment but a placebo.
So here is curtesy of Joy Collura the facts as put out by FOIA she obtained after much consternation but much determination.
From:
To:
Willis,Darrell
“Holly Neill”
BCC: None
Date: 12/9/2013 12:25:10 PM
Subject:
RE: ADOSH
Holly,
Thank you for your kind words. I am finding some peace but still lots of questions in the report. As you
see in the citations, I was named and the State was cited for the actions we took. On pages 12 and 13
of the IRPG it discusses Defensible/Non-Defensible tactics. I chose Non-Defensible (Prep and Leave)
no injuries, no accidents, no incidents, but they still gave a citation. That troubles me for the future and
nationally. There is work that may help before the fire front hits the infrastructure and it can possible do
some good in a safe manner.
As far as OPS goes, I did not have a clear understanding of their roles, and it was not real clear. I did
contact Musser and Able on multiple occasions for Field operations direction, but as I recall nothing
about future planning or resource needs other than re-engaging my resources to Model Creek.
Here is my theory on air resources, there is more information out there that is recorded. There was a
retardant study aircraft in the air that day conducting a study, they were recording all radio traffic both
UHF and VHF. I also believe that Marsh was requesting a drop either in the valley or on their location
because he heard an aircraft overhead.
Thank you for talking to Joy and having my back. I am grateful for that. Joy told me she blogged some
information about me but I have decided to ignore the blogs, do you know what she said? By the way
John Dougherty has asked for another interview. I have elected to have him write out his questions and
I will answer them in writing after I get approval from the City.
Looking forward to seeing you again. DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
333 White Spar Road
Prescott, AZ 86303
10/1/2018Page 2
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
(928)925-7311 Cell
Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
From: Holly Neill [mailto:
]
Sent: Monday, December 09, 2013 11:58 AM
To: Willis,Darrell
Subject: ADOSH
Darrell,
I realize that the ADOSH findings must be difficult for the GM families, for you and the PFD and the
entire WFF community to hear and absorb.
It certainly provides a startling contrast to the SAIR stating that everyone followed all policies and
procedures.
It occurred to me that you in fact did pull your resources to safety when you realized the imminent
danger. It seems to me that you are the notable overhead that made this type of safety decision.
I was happy to note that PFD was not cited or held accountable. This is as it should be.
Question: Was it made clear to you that Musser was Planning OPS and that Abel was Field OPS, and
did they both stay within and operate within their individual OPS positions?
Do you know what information and why USFS has redacted this information relating to the
VLAT/ASM2 missions? Do you have a theory? I wonder if Marsh asked ASM2 for VLAT drop right
down the middle of deployment valley (??).
10/1/2018Page 3
I am happy to see that Joy Collura contacted you. I took the liberty of trying to explain to her how you
made the statement about “God’s Will”, not as an excuse or an effort to hide something, but as your
own personal way of understanding a horrific event and trying to make sense of it. I believe she felt bad
about negatively reacting to your comment previously, and she wanted to make up for it.
I won’t take any DW bashing on my watch! 🙂
I hope you are well, and satisfied to some extent with the ADOSH findings.
We plan to return to Prescott in March to mee
Danny boy, Oh Danny boy, I miss you so. The world has its tears, I at times have mine. We did our best to bring the truth to light and to make it right.
Joy’s troubles began when she started attempting to retrieve FOIA’s. Knowledge is power and the powers that be want to keep it to themselves even where they are criminally liable. The ones in charge just do not want their dirty deeds aired to the public–they think only of themselves and not the consequences of withholding information vital to the change needed to protect the lives of future wild land fire fighting heroes.
It would have been easy for us to forget and just go on without saying anything. But what Joy says is true–we were there throughout the ordeal and even ourselves barely escaping the fire that day. If we did not protest what we know as an absolute fable–that no one was accountable–an incident just to be accepted as an accident–when we knew better–then we would have that on our conscience–a heavy burden indeed.
Truth in this matter is of utmost importance and I feel the pain for the many losses both of the 19 and those that have died since in Yarnell.
I am grateful for the many experienced wild land fire fighters that have been supportive of her efforts and for the many contributions you heroes have made toward bringing the truth to light. Although WTKTT says he is not a wildland fie fighter his contributions have been among the best as well.
Ideally people will take responsibility, the Chemical Companies and Retardant people owe much towards the health of the wild land fire fighter–some of the billions they profit need to be put back into the wild land fire fighter that suffers from their toxins–and of course the environmental problems and the ocean dead zones they create.
I have to believe that all the good works here will pay.
Oh…and one more thing. I am currently working on my “WF Training” chapter and I just banged out a paragraph I want to share with anyone who is inter Steed in reading it.
“There is a lesson there for the WF world that is based on lies, deceit and coverups to protect the reputation of those who made mistakes and paid for it with their lives and sometimes the lives of others while also making sure that none of their family members or friends get their feelings hurt. Which takes me back to something RTS wrote about a long time ago. I think we should always tell the truth when writing about disaster fires and then just issue, “Hurt Feelings Reports” to anyone who thinks getting their feelings hurt is more important than saving the lives of current and future WF and promise them we will post them as addendum to the Disaster Fire SAIR. Yes…and don’t get me started otherwise I might get worked up and tell you how I really feel without sugar coating it so much.”
That should be, “…anyone who is interested in reading it.”
Oh…and it was reading some of Joy’s posts about the issues some people have with IM made me want to post that paragraph. I really enjoyed reading just his much some people are bothered by this thread.
And yes…all of us owe JD a debt of gratitude for giving us a platform on which to write about how we feel about the YHF coverup and how it presents a clear and present danger to current and future WF because everyone might not get the secret message that some seem to think WF will get through osmosis…I guess? And so things don’t need to be written down or openly stated. I don’t agree with that position…obviously.
Joy is on the warpath! 😂 You go girl!
Oh…and one more thing. It’s The Woodsman’s fault I am working on my “WF Training” chapter since he said he would put me in charge of developing the framework and road forward once he eliminates all current WF training and starts over. I thought I had better get some of thoughts down on paper. It could happen? Maybe President Trump will wake up tomorrow and put him in charge if the NWCG?
I mean…I think we can all agree that The Woodsman is obviously highly qualified for that position and it wouldn’t be the most astonishing thing President Trump has done since he was sworn into office…right?
As a matter of fact…it wouldn’t even be the most astonishing thing President Trump did last week…am I right? So I think there is definitely a chance?
I’ll accept the role. I like a challenge and we have nowhere to go but up. I just need a week or so to get the new tactical plan crafted to meet the measures outlined in your framework. So give me the go ahead at least a week in advance. I like to hit the ground running.
Right on! My chapter will be done before that and when it is, I will post it here. Or somewhere….because as you know, it’s very important for everyone to be up to speed on how I feel about these issues.
In fact, just as sure as RTS will say that nobody can name one single fire fatality where the rules were not broken, I say that I can write a plan to meet anyone’s identified objectives for anything you want, anytime and anywhere.
By the way, in order to get something that sticks in my craw unstuck, I will make my personal response to the statement: ” name one fire where somebody died while following all the rules. You can’t. ”
It’s what I call a classic “no shitter.”
Imagine this next part of my statement coming from a bullhorn device:
“THE RULES WERE WRITTEN THAT WAY ON PURPOSE!”
Onward and upward fine people of this format. I too owe a debt of gratitude to Mr. John Dougherty. Thank you.
Woodsman,
You posted – incorrectly mind you – “In fact, just as sure as RTS will say that nobody can name one single fire fatality where the rules were not broken,”
Nope – never said “not broken.”
What I actually said was: “And once again, the challenge is still out there to provide even one wildland fire where the Fire Orders were followed and the 18 Watch Outs were utilized and mitigated, and a WF or FF was killed by the wildfire.”
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxix-here/#comment-481486 )
And you posted: “… I will make my personal response to the statement: ‘ name one fire where somebody died while following all the rules. You can’t.’”
“It’s what I call a classic “no shitter;.” So do I .
And then you posted :“THE RULES WERE WRITTEN THAT WAY ON PURPOSE!”
So then I gotta ask – what’s the problem Buckwheat if we are both saying the same thing?
The issue I have is the notion that the Fire Orders were designed / written by management to protect management.
So saith RTS … again
I got that wrong. My apologies. Carry on.
Yes Sir. That is the plan. Thank you for being unoffended by may rare name calling
Here is a couple articles from the Daily Dispatch, Phoenix paper (July 1, 2014) fire news—sent to me by Joy–
State keeping Yarnell Hill Fire secrets, say critics
Shortly after the Yarnell Hill Fire killed 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots, investigators appointed by the state forester
interviewed members of a Hotshot team that was working nearby. The Blue Ridge Hotshots were among the last to
speak to the Granite Mountain Hotshots via radio and the investigators wanted to know what was said during the
radio conversations. But the notes taken by the investigators have never been made public, according to a law
professor who has spent months trying to gain access to them through Arizona’s public records law. “The
investigation team members withheld their notes from their interviews with the key players on the Yarnell Hill Fire,”
10/1/2018Page 2
said Elizabeth Nowicki, who is a law professor and expert witness on risk management cases. Nowicki is among a
growing number of voices demanding more transparency from the Arizona Forestry Division. The criticism began
immediately after the Serious Accident Investigation Team released its report on what went wrong. The repo rt
blamed weather and communications problems, but failed to hold anyone accountable for the deaths or the
mistakes that led to them.
KPHO-TV CBS 5 PHOENIX
Eastern Arizona wildfire grows to 10 square miles
A wildfire in eastern Arizona’s White Mountains continues to grow in size as firefi
Yarnell Hill Fire donations top $15M after a year
The Yarnell Hill Fire tragedy triggered a tidal wave of donations and more than $15 million poured in. CBS 5
Investigates reached out to seven of the largest organizations which collected money after the deadly fire, most of it
for the families of the 19 Granite Mountain Hotshots who died June 30, 2013. “I think people want to give their money
where they think it will make the biggest impact, and I think that’s why it’s important for them to know what we’ve
done,” said Sharon Knutson-Felix, who heads up the 100 Club of Arizona. The agency helps families of public safety
officers and firefighters who are hurt or killed in the line of duty. It received $4.6 million and sent out about 20,000
receipts to donors. “When something of this magnitude happens, it was the policy and procedures and the way the
100 Club was set up and structured that actually helped us really shine as a nonprofit during a most difficult time in
our state,” Knutson-Felix said. To date, $3.5 million has been spent on meeting the needs of those who lost their
loved ones in the fire. The remaining funds will help the organization continue that mission.
KPHO-TV CBS 5 PHOENIX
Two things–It is obvious that the State and Forest Officials will lie by omission and continue to do so when even attorneys have a hard time to get information. Someone in Congress ought to take notice since this is against the American way when you have absolutely no legitimate reason to keep that information secret unless it is for nefarious purpose. The tax payer is treated like shit yet expected to pay the salaries of these false gods of the fire world.
And if the loved ones did receive the 15 million then it might be a reason they are willing to by pass the real reason their loved ones died and let the FS and State spin their yarn. It is a shame it it is that way–but they say money can buy anything–even if it costs lives in the future. Of course some people do not think much past themselves so what the consequences of a continued habit of bad actions will see more dead heroes.
It is indeed a mess–but someone has to do the right thing and mop up.
👋💃👍😇🥰🥳🤗🤝🙏✌️🧠👩🏼👩🏼🎓🕵️♀️👩🌾👩🏼🚒👩🏼🔧👩🏫👩🏼⚖️👩🏻🚀💁🏼♀️🤷🏼♀️🙉🙈🙊🦋🦅🌵🌲🐾🌞💐🌈🔥❄️🥦🍐🥬🥒🍆🍌🌮🥩🍫🍯🏳️🕕♥️🗯🔔⚠️🚸🚷🚯📵🚳🔐📝🖍📕📓📙📰🗂📒📁📋🗄📇🗃🗑📅🧾📄📃
Looked through your emoticons, Gary…
Found it:
🥂🍾
2020 is here. I allowed quietly those who promised to come forward in 2019 because they said 20 19…heard crickets so coming in 2020 ready to release….
“Release” records that is…
🖥📠🖨💽📷🎞📺💾📸📻💿⌨️💻📟🎥
I will release areas realizing if I bank the data and talk about having them then I get 🍅🍅🍅🍅 thrown at me but if I just lay back wear my air compression on my legs and arms Camp myself in front of pc and run the air compressor machine so they circulate and download and upload and email and copy and paste here then finally you all will see I was never trying to hold back but give some others their chance first hand.. their opportunity.
Who knows if all they did was a setup to distract me … I should pull records on that and double check though…🤭🤪😉
My goal with the public records is to make sure we get to why Pfingston and Harwood and Alan and Holly and Willis and others thought they were all having private emails shared to one another and I read and read and read all there missing links and I thought maybe if I post it here then people can help them because they have a few blocks but like I said earlier IM participants could help them but at this point it takes them coming here to participate too.
Holly in her emails comes off like she has some sort of media phobia in my opinion like the media won’t help her but in reality most I am reading you probably got cored from media data obtained through FOIAs and PRRs of others…weird you all have this book due out but so far I do not see you on index logs but Nowicki has been on index logs so question is … did John have Nowicki pull for him to keep his name out of the index logs or for her?
I think I have taught people to watch how they write in emails and to who…
Strange some think just because they have a proton account they are safe yet it is proton to proton or tutanota is ok but don’t think any online areas are safe to communicate…signal for texting is ok…but I don’t own a smartphone
I like my 1999 tracfone but I never open texts there or write texts because it is the old style pain in the ass kind.
Well…for whatever reason you are doing what you are doing, I think you are doing the right thing! And I’m pretty sure they are reading and talking about what you are doing.
Gary, when those kids grow up I can look them in the eye and say I never made a dime on this tragedy but I spent my life and life savings trying to find out why their dad died and why Sonny and I almost died had we not stayed the course on June 30, 2013 – we would have died because I wanted a quick nap-
So yeah my reasons are we need to know
Too many lives were changed after –
many have died since –
too many build their egos and bank accounts on this tragedy –
too many advanced in their careers to shut them up after this fire
– too many when asked what fire was the most catastrophic they all are brainwashed to stay away from Yarnell topic-
TOO MANY were directed and guided and reprimanded because they talked to RTS, Gary , and the likes of others on IM including me. The bullshit needs to stop.
So let me ask you- was anything I said from the PRRs or FOIAs unethical to say on here on IM? Was it abusive to state the very facts they wrote? When all these years they acted like my friend to my face but I figured let the world see how these people correspond for themselves because I am not doing it with any ill intent at all just want the people to know my life and what I have faced…
So Gary- releasing records is what I wanted for 2019 but I had a few tell me pause so they can tell their story first hand and then their job was compromised- I never wanted to see that. The filth layers I have had to see is heart breaking, Gary.
Joy, the facts are just that. What you post from the records can not be denied. There is, however, too much still missing–The redactions for one thing–but also so many witnesses who are sitting on much evidence and testimony.
You have kept your promise to start revealing the data you have and that ought to jar some memories and consciences.
Request created successfully! check your email for updates.
Request #20-48
OPEN
As of January 16, 2020, 9:53am
Request Visibility: Unpublished
Details
I am asking for all emails, documents, letters with the name Wade Ward tied to any of these names in
any order or combination or there of: Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman, Amanda, Amanda Beno, Amanda
Marsh, Amanda Lohman and or Joy A Collura and or just the word “Joy” and or Yarnell and or Yarnell
Hill Fire and or Nowicki and or Willis and or Steinbrink and or Lucas and or Marty Cole.
City of Prescott:
For the record, I never received any letter from Wade Ward in regards to Amanda Beno Marsh. All my
emails in 2013 from Amanda were kind. The shift began when I started in 2014 pulling PRRs and
FOIAs because I overheard a City O cial at a store say he did not agree with Holly’s article and they
needed more to go by- THAT WAS WHY I PULLED MY FIRST RECORDS with other entities. Your entity
never entered my world until years later because I liked the Mayor K saying we had “common sense”
the hikers and I did not like HOW the City was treated on the aftermath so I stayed clear for long time
pulling any records to CITY OF PRESCOTT.
Every moment I had with Wade Ward was pleasant and NEVER once did he tell me what is written in
this email. NEVER.
Learning about it for the rst time in 18-541 PRR. I did not even know Nowicki at the date of this letter.
She started sifting in late Fall 2013, start of Winter stating to heal our pains she was sending us the
CELL PHONE RECORDS. She never did.
I want that noted FOR THE RECORDS the above information.
Read less
0345_Sender_Ward,Wade – [email protected] – Subject_Please consider – 10-09-
20…
Received
January 16, 2020 via web
Departments
None Assigned
Requester
×JOY A COLLURA
[email protected]
PO BOX 572, CONGRESS, AZ 85332
4805591971
Documents
Public (pending)
(none)
Requester
Sta
Point of Contact
Angelisa Winemiller
Timeline
Request Opened
Request received via web
January 16, 2020, 9:53am
Gary,
But did you really READ and catch what actually posted?
“I want to share with anyone who is inter Steed in reading it.”
Was that an electronic Freudian slip or WTF was that?
I remember what the Mayor told Sonny and I about what Nowicki said about us when we were visiting Tom Steele and some radio guy and the Mayor and Tommy Meredith and his wife-
I just want you to know Nowicki what you did to us was happening to you with Holly Neill and John MacLean feeding it back channel on you-
Yeah you should pull some records and the touhy rules will not apply on that one. Plus they did not redact some data they should on my PRR on you so you know- ok. (#560 so it helps you)
The world of back stabbers–what a clown show. People show their true colors if you can get their emails that they send to Public Offices. I wonder if my letters requesting investigations to public offices like FBI, EPA, WHO were redacted in content.
I never wrote Congress–I know the Chemical Companies helped get them in office and they have promises of a good position after their leave of Congress if they follow the line. Well there might be an honest few–let me know then I will write them.
We all know WILDFIRE TODAY really works hard to get the data out there-
I wondered if any of you remember this old video
https://youtu.be/GxDufpmDPoo
it ill matter later but as I go thru records I want it on IM to later address
Joy A Collura says
Reply to Joy A Collura post on January 12, 2020 at 4:07 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> We all know WILDFIRE TODAY really works hard to get the data out there-
Do we?
Bill Gabbert had every chance in the world to try and clarify a lot of things with Brendan McDonough when he agreed to be interviewed by Gabbert… but it turned into one of the most sophomoric, softball interviews anyone could possibly imagine.
Completely unhelpful.
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> I wondered if any of you remember this old video
>> https://youtu.be/GxDufpmDPoo
>>
>> it ill matter later but as I go thru records I want it on IM to later address
Wildfire Today
Video Title: Law of Catastrophic Reform
Upload Date: May 24, 2018
Video Description:
At a wildland fire conference in May, 2018, 13 people were asked to
describe a catastrophic event on a fire that led to a positive change.
In order of appearance ( in the video )…
Heather Heward
Tim Sexton
Marta Miralles
Mike Beasley
Russel Parsons
Chris Dicus
Tom Zimmerman
Sheila Murphy
Mike Norton
Colin Hardy
Domingas Viegas
Dave Calkin
Tom Harbour
Only ONE of these THIRTEEN Wildland Fire professionals even bothers to mention the greatest tactical blunder so far in the history of wildland firefighting ( the 2013 Yarnell Hill fire ), and even then only in the context that he thinks people are now more willing to talk about prescribed fire.
—————————————————————————————————
+17:40 – Dave Calkin
Hi. I’m Dave Calkin, and I’m a research forester with the Rocky Mountain Research Station here in Missoula, Montana. I’ve been asked to reflect on a tragedy that has resulted in a positive outcome, and one thing that comes to mind is the terrible tragedy at Yarenll Hill a number of years ago where 19 firefighters lost their lives. I wasn’t directly involved in that, but I have visited the site. My involvement, really, has been working with the regional office and helping them go through some risk assessment processes… particularly with the intent of improving firefighter safety and getting more fire on the landscape. And one of the things I’ve noticed is that the community support for wildfire… for getting more fire on the landscape… has fundamentally changed over the last five years… and the Yarnell Hill tragedy certainly has had something to do with that. That, also with recognition that when we put firefighters in harm’s way it really needs to be to get good outcomes on the landscape and improve the outcomes for all of the people that are affected by fire.
—————————————————————————————————
Very relevant quote/observation from Chris Dicus…
—————————————————————————————————
+10:10 – Chris Dicus – California Fire Science Consortium
I wish that we could be proactive in terms of how we mitigate fire risk but, unfortunately, it seems that we don’t ever have any change until there’s a major, major catastrophe that we’re responding to it instead of being on the front end.
—————————————————————————————————
As I get trained up in the Fire Industry – I know exactly why some do what they do but not one PRR or FOIA has yet shown Gabbert to talk bad on me or Sonny. I read alot what he writes to Govt emails and well I think after you see how many trash you – it is re-freshening to see one out there focused to a product of showing Wildfire and its tools that could lead young ones to safer style of fighting fires. So I get you yet I think he has done hardwork on making his site.
Let IM do a poll and Diane Lomas you are included-
Would you be okay if WILDFIRE TODAY retired and ended?
my answer: I would not be okay. It is one of the rare and few sites to learn old and new information on Wildfires. His satellite data sparked me to go International to see what the world does and knows on it and compare it. I can now look at maps and know who is fighting the fire just by my legend buttons laying there.
As I get trained up in the Fire Industry – I know exactly why some do what they do but not one PRR or FOIA has yet shown Gabbert to talk bad on me or Sonny. I read alot what he writes to Govt emails and well I think after you see how many trash you – it is re-freshening to see one out there focused to a product of showing Wildfire and its tools that could lead young ones to safer style of fighting fires. So I get you yet I think he has done hardwork on making his site.
Let IM do a poll and Diane Lomas you are included-
Would you be okay if WILDFIRE TODAY retired and ended?
my answer: I would not be okay. It is one of the rare and few sites to learn old and new information on Wildfires. His satellite data sparked me to go International to see what the world does and knows on it and compare it. I can now look at maps and know who is fighting the fire just by my legend buttons laying there.
Joy-that is one place I do not bother to frequent. In fact, the one time I went there and saw that it was part of the “no blame, no change, no one allowed to post with challenge to the system” I decided not to bother again. If I remember the one firefighter that traveled so far and decided it was no accident but calreless action that killed the men had to come back and apologize because he had told the truth. Any facts that might offend were not allowed. So certainly there must have been some good information there but as far as concerns the Yarnell Fire, WTKTT is correct.
Thursday, May 05, 2016 3:37 PM
logo usage wanting to be used in the movie ONLY THE BRAVE email thread contents:
who does the logo belong to:
probably the City’s as it was created by a former crew member and Eric made a couple small changes.
I had forgotten that Chief Fraijo had delegated ( REDACT ON IM ONLY ) (through a formal delegation agreement) to determine who could have the logo in the weeks following June 30. It was not given readily. She remembers telling a dispatcher who was on the Charities board at the time that they could not use it when they made up the shirts that were being sold so they came up with a different logo. I was in charge of routing requests for appearances, etc. Darrell recalls somewhere along the line that JP tried telling him the logo belonged to the Charities but Darrell never signed off on anything on behalf of the City. … She also told me that ( REDACT ON IM ONLY ) and Brendan McDonough were each paid $250,000 to consult on the film to provide the “real” facts. However, ( REDACT ON IM ONLY ) said Darrell would not be included in the movie (an actor playing him) as there was room for only one chief. Doesn’t make much sense unless it is because she doesn’t want Darrell involved and then she is straying from the facts. Duane was also approached to get him to borrow the crew buggies to be used in the film. He said he was not taking any money though. ( REDACT ON IM ONLY ) also had a good point. The Fire Dept is in dire need of funding to keep 9 positions and eliminate station brown or blackouts. What a perfect funding opportunity. $1.6 million will fill the 9 spots for two years and is not out of line considering what they are paying the subject matter experts.
I agree that the Film Industry should have helped with funding concerns or donate to charities of the GMHS loved ones like what is it Tom does- it is hmmm…oh yeah…HEALING HAVEN FOUNDATION- I think those needs should have been met before the pockets of the Lookout who has failed the world of giving his pure account. Shit, if the film makes that kind of funds maybe Sonny we should make a fillum after all doing it ourselves or finding family and friends and have them do it for us 😉
Right.
——————
Thursday, May 05, 2016 2:38 PM
Okay, there is more….
It is very important to find out NOW who owns this logo before signing this agreement. John says that the creator is the owner unless he/she transfers it to someone else which should be in writing. The only way to find out is to have the Copyright Office research it if you don’t have any paper trail and they will charge for this service and I have no idea how long that takes. If PFC does not own the logo, they cannot enter into this agreement. John indicated that just
because PFC may have registered the logo, it does not necessarily mean they own it unless you have it in writing transferring the logo to them.
The other change is to add “Inc.” after Charities and to have an officer sign this agreement unless you have some other document giving the Board the authorization to enter into this agreement. (Since the annual report was just filed April 6 and not on an expedited basis, we cannot tell who they currently are.)
#574
If they got paid those kind of funds and Willow and other children did not see a dime from that- you bet I would be disappointed in any of them that worked on that project…that is terrible…they don’t have a dad….the two if they took funds as adults and did not do something for each man and a loved one or kid of theirs that died then that sucks.
Willis,
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 10:39 am you stated You are welcome to share our
communications with Ted and John. DW to Holly –
now many in the world are viewing your talk on Rig / Satellite Images email thread.
I gave you ALL the chance over time to be public on the fire and all I saw in return was more disparaging and secretive but it is facts I have shown more facts on this fire than the ones picking me a part.
May you use this IM site to learn to stop using government and private emails – because if it relays to fire – Joy has it or can pull it- and take the tip I said earlier on the “BC” stuff too- that includes your cell phone, sir both private or professional if it is tied to fire I can get it.
Let’s get real in 2020, Willis.
So many deserve it.
I know the very “private” investigation club you belong to and its contents – you all will fail if you do not include IM participants because many of us have what you all email one another as missing links…
We all need one another to make a true account, sir.
the infamous touhy regulation that in my humble opinion altered the life of Dave Larsen and so many others- why use that touhy regulation on the inquiry below
Let me know, world.
This Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 8:56 PM email thread received the Touhy Regulation-
Do you Hotshot Leaders think the email deserved that touhy regulation???
here is the touhy regulations email:
From: “Bagnoli, Dana -FS”
To: Lucas,Ralph
Date: 7/14/2014 1:37:34 PM
Subject: FW: Fire Inquiries
FYI, more Yarnell stuff to be aware of.
I hope all is well with you.
From: VanBruggen, Bill -FS
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 1:28 PM
To: FS-pdl r3 fam_FFMO
Subject: FW: Fire Inquiries
FYI
From: Hattenbach, Steve – OGC
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 2:21 PM
To: VanBruggen, Bill -FS; Palmer, Judith -FS; Damsgaard, Kristine -FS
Subject: FW: Fire Inquiries
FYI – see below. REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM is seeking speculative opinions she can use for Yarnell related litigation. WO will
communicate directly with her nut I wanted to give you a heads up that staff could continue to be contacted for
opinions on matters.
Steve Hattenbach
Acting Director, Public Affairs
Southwestern Region, Forest Service
333 Broadway Boulevard, NE
505-842-3290 office
505-828-1838 cell
From: YOUNG, BENJAMIN, JR. – OGC
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 11:02 AM
To: Fink, Lee -OSEC; CHRISTIAN, LISA – OGC; Hattenbach, Steve – OGC; Elmore, Christopher – OGC
Subject: Fw: Fire Inquiries
See below. I suggest we write a letter to REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM and remind her of our Touhy regulations, and then share that
letter with FS.
From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 12:56 PM
To: YOUNG, BENJAMIN, JR. – OGC
From: Jones, Jennifer E -FS
Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 12:56 PM
To: YOUNG, BENJAMIN, JR. – OGC
Cc: Harbour, Tom -FS; Olsen, Dan -FS; Sharp, Drag B -FS; Reid, Dana K -FS; Ferris, Mike -FS
Subject: Fire Inquiries
Hi there, several Forest Service fire management staff have received inquiries, such as the following email, from
REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM that we believe may be related to Yarnell Hill fire accident litigation. We understand that REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM management cases, here is a link to her
bio REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM
We are concerned that any information that we provide her could be used in a legal case. Please advise us on how to
respond to her inquiries. If you have any questions or need more information, please let me know, thanks!
and then
here is the email who had inquiry:
Date: Sun, Jul 13, 2014 at 8:56 PM
Subject: Hotshot-related question from a stranger….
To: [email protected]
Dear Mr. Bruington:
I write with a question about wildland firefighting. Given that I am a stranger to you, I suppose you would be well within your
rights to totally ignore this e-mail… but I hope you won’t.
My question to you is this: Do you, as the leader of a hotshot crew, view a drop of an entire load of retardant from a VLAT
(roughly 11,000 gallons of retardant) as a big deal? Meaning, if you were on a fire, and the fire unexpectedly changed
directions and also grew in size, such that you and your crew needed to expand the size of your safety zone or something,
would you view a drop of 11,000 gallons of retardant between your safety zone and the approaching fire with some comfort,
as a tactic that was likely to “buy you some time” as you worked on improving or increasing the size of your crew’s safety
zone?
You are welcome to call me at REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM if that is easier than trying to type out a response…. (or if you want to know
why I even care and am asking such a question).
Thanks in advance.
Best,
REDACTED FOR HERE ON IM
I hope by posting you get your answers here and I am sorry they used the touhy regulation on you.
In one PPR email thread … Jim Roth, brother of South Canyon Fire Tim Roth, and owner of Storm King Technologies writes: “People in general don’t know how to deal with grief , they’re looking for answers and when they don’t find the answers they withdraw from life. You’re doing the opposite and that’s what makes the difference in others lives.”
InvestigativeMEDIA is just that where Roth describes by making a difference in other people’s lives by pressing on and continuing to expose the many truths (and lies) about the YH Fire debacle and the GMHS tragedy. It’s easy to just give up and walk away, however, the difficult right thing to do is what we are doing here on IM even though we have a select number disparaging.
After reading some of Alan Sinclair’s email threads on these FOIAs and PRRs-
You can learn about the good guy here: http://johnmacleanbooks.com/yarnell/sinclair.shtml
I like ya not because you hang with Slash time to time or are the master at creating kickass party bonfires but because you got a natural edge- and Slash is the only concert I ever went to besides Red Hot Chili Peppers … I also have edge but that is because my 80’s church friends Jack, Lesa and Bruce were my first social group to my life and that was their ways- I was new to the external world so I adopted their edge a bit-( back in the day we were daredevil freestyle motorcyclists and mountain bikes too and our cannondales (click and go) – Jack still is a daredevil) ( you can see them on post 4 of h tt ps ://w w w.yarnellhillfirerevelations.c o m/blog ) (we all suffer old injuries from flying off cliffs)
Alan, I say stuff what people only think in their mind –
What I do in life is like jumping on a cliff and just soar- I never think there is a bottom to that cliff.
So when you, Alan, reported on June 3, 2014 used the Bruker Tracer 3-5, X-ray Florescence Spectrometer (XRF), and had both samples analyzed and the results- that is where “Joy the desert walker” could have been a better help for you on our hike June 30, 2014 but you and Holly and Deanna were being disingenuous with me that hike but I could have told you on that specific hike what was there before the fire material wise because it is my hiking ground so you know if it happened on June 30, 2013 unless you were there and knew say hmmm that specific area because you were present. Now, were you also there for the fight a homeowner eyewitnessed? Just curious.
Also I could have told you on our hike where people were scrambling to grab their “weed” garden on June 30, 2013 that was out there in area you found your material aka samples and not the datura plant weed- not not the jimson weed kind – those folks are the very folks who use to party with Donut in the day and that is facts confirmed and maybe just maybe Alan you could have stopped being part of the party line of this side private investigation on a made for profit book. You were better off staying out of that whole book dealio but now you tied in so you became part of the loop of the unbiased look into who is who and where they actually stood June 30, 2013. Now I could have shown you where certain cameras and stations were out there too. Remember Sonny they replaced that one antenna things asap out there in the boulders-
I will release without your permission a public record with your photo at some point but you are so minor in comparing it to the first hand crucial folks- but yeah it might help in others who are publicly not shadily investigating the YHFire to see that photo because your face tells a story in it.
Alan, we here are awaiting to read your team’s book will be interested what you will or will not share in true form because there are folks who know your steps- In 2020, take the bold step and be a leader and publicly talk on here about June 30, 2013 versus waiting for the made-for-profit book of John’s…do the right thing…stop privately emailing people your investigation because for your own education even if you BC’d people once I get it- I can lift the BC and see true form metadata. That should be a life lesson for all who do BCs in emails. I also can lift blacked out areas if they did not black it out in proper form as I just showed one entity who is going under investigation.
This year people need to stop being biased and truly look at the people around you and ask yourself are they for me and the truth or not
I mean there is one widow I want to tell her “pull records” – learn “who” are your friends because that person may think all is find and dandy but there are email threads that who she think is for her – they think her presence causes a hostile environment.
Let’s get more raw and real in 2020, ok!
Consider this relevant email thread (with Prescott FD redactions of personal information having already occurred in the released record) supporting Joy’s post above:
From: “asinclair
To: “Holly Neill” <jharwood, Willis,Darrell [email protected] deborah.pfingsto
Date: 6/3/2014 2:18:17 PM
Subject: Re: any ideas
"Here is what I found today……
"Using a Bruker Tracer 3-5, X-ray Florescence Spectrometer (XRF), I had both samples analyzed. The "white stuff" and "black thing".
[ https://www.bruker.com/fileadmin/user_upload/8-PDF-Docs/X-rayDiffraction_ElementalAnalysis/HH-XRF/Brochures/Tracer/Tracer_Family_Brochure.pdf ]
"This is non conclusive information as the lab is not official but I think the results warrant further investigation.
"White stuff" positive for: Iron Calcium Suffer And "abundant" strontium
"Black thing" positive for: Silicon Strontium Calcium Potassium
Alan
—- Holly Neill wrote: "I agree. I am willing to wait on promising lab results before these notifications occur. It is a good solid plan if the results are positive, they would be the backbone of the supporting documentation. It is good to know in advance what options we have available to move forward quickly with positive test results. I'll talk with Mac about other entities and notifications as well. Group hug, H"
—–Original Message— From: asinclair13 asincla To: jharwood78 jharwood; Willis, Darrell [email protected]; Deborah Pfingston
Cc: Holly Neill Sent: Tue, Jun 3, 2014 8:51 am
Subject: RE: Fw: any ideas
Page 1 10/1/2018
"I agree with Darrell, I should have some results by noon.
—- "Willis wrote: Here is another thought. I really like this documentation, I would like to see what comes of the test. If the results are promising I suggest that I send this to ADOSH (this would be my third communication with them on these new revelations and notify them that I would be taking this to a higher authority. And you all can do what you see fit to notify others or get other entities involved. I would also send this to people I know how to contact on the SAIT team. What are your thoughts? DW
Darrell Willis, Division Chief
Prescott Fire Department
333 White Spar Road
Prescott, AZ 86303
(928)777-1701 Office
(928)776-1890 Fax
(928)925-7311 Cell
Notice: My new e-mail address is [email protected]
From: Deborah Pfingston [mailto: > > Sent: Tuesday, June 03, 2014 7:26 AM
To: jharwood
Cc: Holly Neill; asinclair ; Willis,Darrell
Subject: Re: Fw: any ideas
“Doug, Your document is amazing! I have attached two papers: one being the edits highlighted to show you my suggested changes and the other updated with the changes. Please note these are just suggestions, I support whatever you choose to submit.
“Thank you for all you are doing. The truth will be exposed and lives will be saved because of your work.
Deborah
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 10:31 PM, jharwood <mailto:jharwood
jharwood wrote:
"Let me know what you think. Thanks Doug
Please note: forwarded message attached
From: "Harwood, Doug" [email protected]<mailto:doug.harwood@prescott-az. Gov
To: "jharwood
Subject: Date: Mon, 2 Jun 2014 22:26:21 -0700
Page 2 10/1/2018
Deborah Pfingston M.Ed. "Christopher Robin?," whispered Pooh. "Yes, Pooh Bear?" "I'll never not remember you… ever."
___________________________________________________________________
DP told Harwood – " The truth will be exposed and lives will be saved because of your work. ” Is this all in line with the ” Our Investigation – Our Truth ” format where anything remains hidden? How about sharing what you have as do those that post here and elsewhere to let everyone know what has been discovered.
And they make such a big deal out of a common wildland firefighting tool – a fusee. The Orion Company product line refers to them as flares.
___________________________________________________________________
No pc flare Page 1 of 504 2017 SAFETY DATA SHEET 1.
Product and Company Identification – Red Emergency Flare – Marine and / or Emergency Road Flare Railway Flare
11. Toxicology Information Ingredient acute toxicity Information
Toxicology
Strontium Nitrate [ Strontium is best known for the brilliant reds its salts give to fireworks and flares. It is also used in producing ferrite magnets and refining zinc. Modern ‘glow-in-the-dark’ paints and plastics contain strontium aluminate. They absorb light during the day and release it slowly for hours afterwards. Strontium-90, a radioactive isotope, is a by-product of nuclear reactors and present in nuclear fallout. It has a half-life of 28 years. It is absorbed by bone tissue instead of calcium and can destroy bone marrow and cause cancer. However, it is also useful as it is one of the best high-energy beta-emitters known. It can be used to generate electricity for space vehicles, remote weather stations and navigation buoys. It can also be used for thickness gauges and to remove static charges from machinery handling paper or plastic. Strontium chloride hexahydrate is an ingredient in toothpaste for sensitive teeth. ] Source: ( https: / / w w w. rsc. Org / periodic-table / element / 38 / strontium )
Sulfur
Potassium Perchlorate
Polyethylene
Potassium Chlorate
____________________________________________________________________
Mr. Willis in other email threads continually writes “I still do not know all the facts about Yarnell Hill, and even if it is not what I want to hear I am interested in the truth, not opinions or theories. I too want to make sure this does not happen again to anyone anywhere. … This tragedy will be with us as long as we live and … we are both seeking the same thing.”
Fusees are generally used for one purpose on wildland fires – FIRING OPERATIONS
So then, are you willing to support the idea of a Sesame Street and Shrine Corridor firing operation as planned by the YH Fire IMT and Resources on June 30, 2013, and discussed in the SAIT-SAIR on pages 18, 21, 24, and 25 likely occurred that afternoon?
The YH Fire SAIT-SAIR states in relevant part: “[BRHS] … clear out the two-track road … [for access] and … possible backfire … (an old fuel break) between Sesame Street and Shrine Road. … dozer to open the line. [BRHS] move their crew carriers toward the Shrine of St. Joseph (the Shrine) and a youth camp area around 1500 and then start preparing for burnout along the dozer line. “ (pp. 18, 21) “… SPGS1 … [asks] if they still have the option to burn out from the dozer line. [BRHS] tells him no. … DIVS A, … agrees and says … the fire is almost as far as the [GMHS] vehicles. … DIVS A says, “… we’re going to make our way to our escape route.” (p. 24) “A task force is … expecting … [the] need to burn off this line … indirect line connects to the dozer line between Shrine Road and Sesame Street. (p. 25) (emphasis added)
OMGosh Joy…thanks so much! I checked out the Maclean’s website, NEIL’S report and Sinclair’s PowerPoint and I only have one thing to say, but Will Smith say’s it best in “i, Robot” 🤖.Especially since you know…I have been working so hard at cleaning up my act.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zvxIXd2-3fo
after reading emails from Willis to many others
I think in my humble opinion he internally is happy the hikers were on the Weavers so we can get the unbiased facts out because he was in an area and Leonard Hunter proved that where he was not getting all the data but I think people have since told him and he holds on to areas just like me
I think him and I both deserve to have the missing pieces that altered our lives-
Does this sound like a man who has a disparaged attitude like Holly and John-
read Willis’ words for yourself:
“Friday, January 09, 2015 12:16 PM
Sonny,
It was my pleasure to meet you and Joy face-to-face yesterday. As I have said since I first started
emailing Joy and also you, I know this tragedy is personal for you and Joy. My focus has been and
always will be the truth and I believe I have been willing to share what I know and what I did on June
30th, 2013 and anything about GMIHC with anyone. Since I am the point person for GMIHC and at
time their loved ones I feel an obligation to provide support to them. I would appreciate it if you could
keep me in you and Joy’s loop. I still do not know all the facts about Yarnell Hill, and even if it is not
what I want to hear I am interested in the truth, not opinions or theories. I too want to make sure this
does not happen again to anyone anywhere. I do not have anything against you or Joy, and the
Amanda Beno-Marsh order does not apply to me. I would count it a blessing to not allow this event to
come between us. This tragedy will be with us as long as we live and there is no reason to be in a
confrontation atmosphere when we are both seeking the same thing. My Best to you Sonny and Joy.
God Bless you. DW
Keep in mind the day before he was on the stand speaking areas of hearsay for Pfingston and I could have easily tossed so many documents right there but when I saw the one document where Jerry wanted the hike with the certain folks and I saw how that was handled I was like forget it this is all a bullshit and wanted a change of venue-
this is where Willis’ letter above than becomes fake in its own way-
ready
watch for my “[ ]” add-ins as your read it
Willis emails Mike Dudley two days earlier from our sweet email above this:
From: Willis,Darrell
To: Dudley
“Mike -FS”
Date: 1/7/2015 12:41:21 PM
Subject: RE: Question
Happy New Year Mike,
The continuing saga of Yarnell Hill.
Joy and Sonny have been posting, emailing and made contact with .
Joy and Sonny have been hiking people around the site in the Weavers and there is the perception that they are charging folks for the hikes.
[Joy adding it here – that is a downright LIE, Willis- we have never taken a dime- ridiculous you are- then 2 days later right what you did on our friendship and how you want it to stay the same]
ADF
[ who is ADF???] [Forest Service? They are not invloved – who?]
and the Sherriff’s office are involved in preserving the closure.
[what a liar, Willis – I saw CA fire chiefs and others hanging there on Weavers saying you all allowed them so how about that for preserving the closure]
Joy approached at a business and asked her some questions
[ that is a lie- I made a comment on sandals and that was it then I talked to gas manager Ronda Carnes- – the camera footage proved that]
and told them to let it go, there is nothing more to
learn, that (she) was moving on.
[that is a lie- audios prove that was never said]
This is getting a lot of play on the John Dougherty’s Investigative Media Blog site I
am told.
is fearful they will show up at her door someday.
[downright lies … bogus … I would never place my feet near her or anyone tied to her in my entire life]
They have also said that they are going to bring two mediums/physics in to the site.
[That is a lie. Jerry Pfingston and my email thread can show “who” wanted that when I said who I was going with (History Channel producer email I shared to them) and it was him who asked for certain people on a hike and I go and try and find some that can do FBI or Court rooms and then I was treated unfairly by his wife in an email- no, I know God knows I am right there. There was never ever a discussion to go to the site just on the top of the Weavers]
This is fueling a lot of concern with the families.
[ again bullshit- what it was concerning was your own “private” investigation team – those GMHS loved ones on your investigation team – you have going as I read in my PRRs and FOIAs- you are wrong Willis]
Joy has asked me if I would be a character witness for her also, I am not doing that. I am going to hearing on Thursday to talk about the concerns the families, not to support or disparage either side.
[ Willis I asked many to write a character letter who were “kept in the loop” of every detail since the fire so they could tell the judge I am not what the details stated when I was served but what you wrote here to Dudley is all the shit I was hearing all through my town locally in 2014 so are you the “core” problem to my problems back then or is –because it is misinformation now a lie told to Dudley but now Dudley knows the facts along with the world>?]
Well, that is it in a nut shell. BTW, Brendan has not been deposed
as of yet. DW
—————————————
So yeah … you tell me world how am I to take that letter above when I have hundreds maybe even thousands of emails knowing all the players and watching their private agendas- how am I to “feel” — Then if I do not share you all think I am holding it all in and banking the data then when I do share I am the drama gal-
You can’t win!
I could say screw this all
but then the faces of the kids are right there- vividly.
I need to stay the course.
Keep sharing. Keep getting educated.
Let people call me drama when I share or think I hoard when I don’t
Rise above
Take the higher grounds.
are those faces vivid for you all who have profited from YHF?
Especially the Slurry Drop folks ….
While the City of Prescott sure could have used the funds for their budget to help their firefighters being they lost almost a whole crew and the news had them in the light- a wrong light –
I read all the records and I am a strong and firm believer the people did the CITY OF PRESCOTT wrong on some areas if you read your FOIAs and PRRs and they deserve some of the Film Funds- a half a million went to 2 people; that is messed up while some PFD staff had went thru the horrors that weekend of June 30, 2013 then possible chance to lose their job to budget cuts…they deserve the funds.
Joy A Collura asked,
JANUARY 5, 2020 AT 9:18 PM
Is that an ol sweetie at 1:11 u know Gary?
https://youtu.be/_fcztWHSqLE
And I say,
No…I don’t know her or probably any of the people with her. I think everyone I worked with or even knew from back in the day is now in a WF museum or at least qualifies to be protected under the The Archaeological Resources Protection Act of 1979 (Pub.L. 96–95 as amended, 93 Stat. 721, codified at 16 U.S.C. §§ 470aa–470mm). But what a great photo op!
Now…I hope the Aussies have enough good sense to give them a nice tour of Sydney, maybe take them to an opera while they are there and then put them on a plane and send them home before they end up lookin’ like a Bloomin’ Onion. Those people are in way over their heads down under.
And I am truly sympathetic for the apocalyptic and surreal world our dear friends the Australians now find themselves living in. That being said…OMGosh…what were they thinking? As I understand it…Australia created almost an entire volunteer hybrid work force to fight their wildfires without the proper WF equipment, training or standards? And between that and their world record of both producing and exporting coal, they are now at least in part…reaping what they sowed.
yeah you do know here or did
That is Shawna, Gary-
her
correction
OMGosh…I didn’t recognize her. Well…I guess all of us are subject to the ravages of time? I should have known she wouldn’t miss out on a bogus trip for expensive photo ops.
I am thinking about going to Australia and helping to save Koala 🐨 Bears though. They are breaking my heart with the images they are showing of burned Koalas and I have to change the channel just like I do when they run those ASPCA ads. I looked on their website the other day to see if they accepted volunteer criminal investigators, but the ASPCA only have full time paid positions for those jobs.. I would want to go try and save Kangaroos 🦘but they 👀 like they would hurt 🤕 me?
The wildlife didn’t ask the Australians to engage in hundreds (?) of year’s of wildland mismanagement by suppressing all wildfires and being to cheap to hire a professional workforce of WF to conduct regular prescribed fires 🔥 and fight their wildfires when it is appropriate to do so.
Plus…I didn’t even listen to what that person in the U.S. Forest Service uniform had to say or look at them for very long because I didn’t want to throw up 🤢, even just a little bit in my mouth 👄.
I instinctively knew based on my experience that whatever that person had to say, no matter who they were would make me sick to my stomach and feel bad 😞 for the foreseeable future.
My patience today for that kind of ridiculous claptrap has a very low threshold before it redlines as many of you who participate on this thread have witnessed over the past six years.
Although FYI…I am highly qualified for this position so again, I want to thank the American people for the massive amount of money you spent training me.
https://aspca.wd1.myworkdayjobs.com/en-US/ASPCAWebsite/job/Remote/Senior-Director–Investigations_2019-450
https://wildfiretoday.com/2020/01/13/afac-explains-the-process-for-accepting-assistance-in-australia-during-the-bushfire-crisis/
PUBLIC AT LARGE NEEDED TO KNOW PUBLIC RECORDS TO BE SHOWN:
John N MacLean made his stance last Summer 2019 about how he walled me for good. He has publicly disparaged me over time and privately. I am just gonna quote his own words down below. Let his own words speak for themselves.
Now I will release actual quotes from FOIAs and Public Records so you all can learn how he is “behind the scenes” in raw non redacted form- all public records too.
John N MacLean believed his email was private to Willis but I need your help understanding this-
Think again, sir.
Big Brother world we live in-
Maybe him and his so call researchers can now tell me I am terrible at digging….read below what he said about the hikers and let me know what you think it means about the hikers-
some quotes of his:
9/7/2014 6:16:23 AM Darrell,
Elizabeth Nowicki contacted me a couple of years ago offering to do legal research
Bam. Thank you for that John Norman MacLean to share who and where “EN” fit in this all-
————————————————–
“There are people connected to Yarnell Hill who are incapable of the kind of simple research Nowicki does and think she’s great–Joy and Sonny, for example, or at least Joy. But I wholeheartedly endorse what Holly’s said in her message to you noted below–I was there when Karels told the story of Nowicki screaming at him over the phone while he was waiting for an airline flight.
————————————————-
Are you saying I am incapable above or I think Elizabeth is great? I could not comprehend the message
I do think Elizabeth is great- I would have never had the documents if it was not her teaching me how 😉
PUBLIC RECORDS REMEMBER
call me INCAPABLE-
I am more capable than what you have placed out-
I have placed out MORE FACTS than YOU.
————————————————-
Why leave the researcher out-
Here is what Holly stated … quote about “EN” to Willis-
” Sep 5, 2014, She may mean well but I do not trust her and I will not engage her. She works very closely with Dougherty. She has tried to engage the IHC community but they are steering clear of her as well. This much I do know.Jim Karels told me that she called him on his cell and caught him unaware…and began yelling at him….
While we all know that Karels deserves a scream or two, it still raised a red flag for crazy behavior. lol.
If you do decide to talk with her I would suggest you listen, but be very careful about what you say in return.
She offers compassion and prayers and her comfort to you….but I would hate to see her twist and shout on you.
While yes I’m protective of you, it is fair to say that I can only share my own experience. Your experience with her may be
different!
Do I trust her? No.
Do I trust her for you? No.
But I do trust you, that you’ll do what’s best for you, even if it means calling her back for a chat.”
I can tell you factually John Dougherty told me years ago he was never associated with “EN” so that was Holly’s perception not fact—maybe that is how their book will be-
PERCEPTIONS
I will not hold back in 2020 as people are getting stuff all around right now-
Nope.
the people who said they were coming out in 2019
I am pushing into 2020 hard
So is it bad I said all that above because it IS what they said
They have said bad things about me over time so why not release what they say- right.
Why should they be allowed the platform on that…
These are my own perceptions and experiences with Joy–Joy has an uncanny ability to read people and an intuition that put her in the class of those Psychics whom Police and FBI sometimes consult on crime cases. She has always been interested in the working of the mind, including intuition and abilities such as many Psychics have. The one she talked to told her she had a better view than that Psychic contained. I do believe certain people have a gift to do these things and it is certainly a gift needed by an investigator.
Holly is correct about me–I would never make a good investigator–but Joy would be among the best. Colombo’s abilities would be challenge with Joy. Add her determined and positive never quit until it is solved attitude and you have the makings of the finest in that work.
you worked the mines and I worked the minds 😉
hee hee
Keep your drink covered.
keep my eyes covered too 😉
Sonny- I got feedback John slammed me above but one day I will have the Jordan Kilganon style … dunk … dunk …. dunk
h tt ps://youtu.be/1dTEXh4lxfA
the translator:
“He thinks that both you and Sonny ( you moreso than Sonny ) are INCAPABLE of doing
even ‘simple research’… and that you are both ( you moreso than Sonny ) really impressed
with Nowicki and you “think she is great”.
Huge behind-the-back SLAM from Maclean regarding you and Sonny. No question.
———————————-
I have so many emails from both of them claiming we are friends
so devious-
So the world will soon see all your emails saying that-
fake people.
AGENDA people.
C A U T I O N!!!!
Joy-People will demean you when they know that you are a threat they can not handle. Stay on track–sometimes they come to realize you are better at what they are trying to do than they are.
Maclean did very poor research and like most were writing their books before they really had done their homework. You have researched and continued to accumulate facts with an unbiased agenda. You are not out to make money I know and Maclean and some others are trying to profit so they are having to do what the State did in a cursory examination. So their presentations and books are not much pumpkin.
This site has produced some contributors that fist off are the top of the line wild land fire fighters with unquestionable qualifications. They have been patient–I know to get to the facts, for instance, RTS has had even to sue for FOIA information. In your own case you have had to constantly dog certain offices that have vital FOIA information and some have withheld for years and you are still having to work to get these FOIA reports. The system has an agenda and trying to get to the truth is a long and tedious process.
But I have to tell you it is that way in so many government departments. Too many just do not want the information out and as you see will black out pages and pages of information despite it belonging to the public archives.
I do know there are laws where they can be criminally charged for their actions and I do hope they get the maximum since we need an example to cause this type criminal activity stopped. It is certain that the Yarnell incident is a National Historical Tragedy. The public has every right to know all about it and the facts and reasons that it happened.
So, yes they will continue to disobey the law by withholding because of the crony influences. But once they get burned for doing so it will help to stop the continued actions to try to make something that was a needless killing into an accident that had no fault.
I am down too ill to accumulate all the names of the people that came down sick and died at Yarnell and many that are sick even today from the chemical retardant dumps that surrounded Yarnell in excessive amounts. I have had a mass on my left lung develope since Yarnell and of course you know about the heart attacks. I have steadily lost my ability to hike–and past few days the chest pain has me to the point I will likely have to go in to the hospital tomorrow, although I am going to avoid until Monday. I may soon be another one to bit the dust due to the retardant–at any rate, it has made my life uncomfortable to say the least.
I am one to accept things as they happen in my life. I certainly do not want sympathy–where I erred by ignorance of the truth, I accept responsibility. I say this because people need to know how deadly that poison is to the elderly, to the aquatic life, the environment and the oceans that are being ruined. The propaganda they put out to protect their profits is absurd but people believe the absurd if you have the methods to convince them. So it is imperative that information get out to accent the problems these chemicals are creating.
My family line were all almost centenarians–most lived in their nineties–Irish immigrants that took up farming in Illinois. Well my uncle did die from an accident at 45 leaving 9 kids. But all the sisters were still active baking pies when I visited the farm–Aunt Minni was 90 taking care of Bill, her second husband who was 56. They drove a tractor to church and to the local country store–did not have a car and Aunt Minnie sent me out back to fetch a pail of water out of a hand pump you had to prime with a cup of water. They were wise people and well read as well–but old school and the type of individuals you only had to shake their hand to know their word was solid. Corporations are without conscience–their sole motive is profits. Profits and money is one of the prime reason for murder. They certainly qualify on that motive.
There are some things in life that it seems the government has gotten away from too often–that involves integrity. The idea that a story could be made up to cover the real reasons 19 are dead is shameful. The feelings of Amandabeno and others are understood and we do sympathize, but there is a bigger picture when it comes to the truth and the safety of the future young wild land fire fighter. And you can bet that Marsh and Steed would want only the truth out so measures could be taken to stop another tragedy from happening.
Corporations are without conscience–their sole motive is profits. Profits and money is one of the prime reason for murder. They certainly qualify on that motive.
Sláinte (health) to you.
Bill was 65 but not too well in health-and did not intentionally repeat the Corporation is without consicence thing but it might be appropriate. (I thought I had deleted and repasted). And not bad for the Queen’s English though I notice where I often use singular verbs that should be plural–also somehow my typing leaves off some ‘S’ ‘s so I sound like the guys talk when I call Verizon for help.
If you think English is a very hard language to learn, try Irish.
If I really was abducted–something fantastic for those aliens–my blood line DNA is good for full age–and some smart ones too.
Sonny,
You make so many good points, especially about the lies and deception that surround the YH Fire debacle and GMHS tragedy.
I pulled this from the Part 3 Formerly Unrevealed Public Records post on that subject.
The dubious “Factual” SAIT-SAIR (page 11) drivel that seems to follow the ethics and morals lessons of this notoriously demonic wanker: “ If you tell a lie big enough and keep repeating it, people will eventually come to believe it. ” – Joseph Goebbels, Reich Ministry of Public Enlightenment and Propaganda.
Unfortunately, so many are believing the lies or succumbing to apathy and just giving in and giving up. Woe is me … However, there is always the possibility that all that we are placing into the public eye in forums like here and here http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com that many more in the world will wake the f**k up !! and changing their minds and maybe even demanding the changes we keep harping on.
Sorry about your health Sonny. Keep up the good fight. You’re in my prayers
I saw Charlie Mosely one day and he was dead withing a few weeks. Charlie as you know was in the CIA and a former smoke Jumper–he paid dearly with heart disease from being a smoke jumper and breathing the retardant fumes and smoke. But then I understand Gary is not doing too well either and I am very sorry to hear that. This is too common for people exposed to the chemicals in the retardants.
We did not understand the dangers of the retardant until we started seeing people sickened and killed at Yarnell after the Yarnell and Tenderfoot fires that both brought loads of retardant in and around Yarnell and Glen Isla with a population of 645 combined before the fire. When the death toll began to approach 100 and people we were acquaited with and seeing regularly were coming down with heart disease, lung issues and sudden cancers I started to look at the chemicals involved in retardants. The corporations know the disasterous effects and once I found that about 20,000 fish and 6 miles of aquatic life had been destroyed by only a 1000 gallons dumped into the fall river, I knew we were dealing with a deadly toxin.
Simple research on the chemicals involved and the chemicals that are caused by reaction once heated by the fires is telling. So not only are the ammonium nitrates, phosphates disasterous to health, so even more deadly are the toxins created such as the cyanides and who knows what chemicals are added since they are a trade secret. But most telling were the elderly and so many that were robust before the fire suddenly being ill and dying. Well the death toll of about 200 Yarnellites tells the story of the aftermath of the Yarnell Retardant dumps–they don’t look so pretty after the death toll they caused.
I only tell my story because it too was a part of the scene–Joy and I had hiked so many times through that and early on got heavy doses when we should have been wearing full face masks. But we believed the story that the retardant is safe–how untrue. We both have suffered effects, mine more than Joy since I am elderly and this stuff is partial to the older people or to those taxed in their immune system.
I have had so many cancers removed since the fire it is disturbing. Somehow the retardant escalates them–these all required Moh’s surgery, meaning I was geting anywhere from three to nine stitches once the cancers were removed. There were over a dozen removed and again on Feb 4, 2020 I am scheduled for Mohs again.
I have had the cathtlheter run to my heart since the fire four times and two of the 6 heart attacks have been near fatal–well one was–and I was relegated to the VA hospice with only a year predicted by the doctor. I can tell you none of this is fun, but I am the fortunate one to be alive because so many of those I enjoyed company with have died or are suffering worse than I have.
It approaches the incident at Chernobal-which killed 30 in the blast and about 50 soon after –yet in time the count of deaths is over 4000–and the count of this retardant is much more because it is killing not only the Yarnellites but the unrecognized deaths and sickness of the wild land fire fighters.
Certain I am angered because these retardant and chemical companies know they are making people sick and killing them. They should be tried for murder as should some of the people in the Forest Service privy to the knowledge about these toxins and causing them to be dispersed near residences.
Yet these corporations with their propaganda and lies have convinced people–damn them and the people that work for them that know what they are causing with these chemicals.
And if you do not believe these corporations put profit before health and lives Google Monsanto’s history with their history of knowingly killing people yet getting away with it with only fines.
Enough said, but enough can not be said to educate people and get some justice for those affected by these poisons, not excluding the environment, the aquatic life and dead zones of the oceans created with the retardant.
Holly Neill ( author John Maclean’s Yarnell Hill Fire research assistant ) said…
“While we all know that Karels deserves a scream or two, it still raised a red flag for crazy behavior. lol.”
I wonder what that is all about.
And who is the WE she is referring to there?
Herself and John Maclean and Darrell Willis, etc?
Is she trying to to say they ALL believe that the actual LEADER of the original 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire SAIT investigation ( Jim Karels ) is just some kind of off-the-rails CRAZY YAHOO who needs to be screamed at to keep him in line?
If so… then how did that kind of personality being in CHARGE of the original SAIT investigation affect its outcome?
Inquiring minds want to know.
I wish I could tell you Wtktt but I am on a signed contract not to and I deeply respect the mentor I have- the first time we did our meet and greet the person told me every detail of the first week after the YHF (investigation wise) and who is Karels and how he got tied into this but I am not at liberty but I do know-
Karels is not bad- he did a job he was trained to do is what I am learning in my Investigation courses-
Karels is not deceptive in email threads I read with him like I see behind the scenes in emails threads with John and Holly in it…that is facts
Karels was trained and performed by the the way I see training goes and he put out a product following guidelines.
I cannot explain John and Holly-
They disparage and talk down on people
why???
Have you seen who’s photo sits next to the word “machevellian”
it is shocking ….
hmmm, sure could use one of Gary’ s emoticons about now
John Dougherty and all participants-
Thank you for this site.
I was on the Weavers with Sonny that horrific weekend- that is facts not perceptions.
I will continue to get trained up with as many obstacles thrown my way.
I am disgusted that some of the families never took the time to know the participants here on IM and pre-judged and allowed Holly Neill to be their rock from the start.
I hope to some day show the loved ones a side they never saw in all this and I pray what happened in 2019 will help DHD to come here and do the right thing.
You are not the right person Holly to do investigations because you become biased and speak very wrong about others- What you did to Charlie Moseley to Willis was down right wrong. Fake ass.
I am glad I spent almost seven years documenting and it may take that much time to read thru it all yet you Holly are a sad person to be so fake to one and state what you do in all these countless emails behind peoples backs.
If you all still plan to do a book and publish it, I look forward to it because I have been reading all your missing links in all the email threads … maybe next time you will think before writing Government emails.
Without all of us here and a few behind the scenes spots – any book will lay in the fiction area.
World, be proud that John Dougherty had the balls to do what he has been doing. In the end it will be this site who did a true unbiased no agenda investigation and note to some loved ones you should pull the records; you may learn who is for your mission or not.
I have a jam packed year yet I will do my best to read and email the IM people areas and there may be times only a few see it versus all because they know the most behind the scenes…yet I am really sick of you people trying to cause harm to the truth sayers
I am okay to speak what I did on Holly because I do have the documents and I do stand FIRM there.
I believed in her for a long time but the emails do not lie how she really talks behind the scenes about others- and not justified at all. FAKE!
Happy New Year World!
RIP – Charlie Moseley – “Moses”
Yes, it is the FOIA records that bring to light the truth in matters. Nixon had amended the origional act in 1974 so that much was revealed about what was going on in government. For instance the CIA was held responsible for the drug misdeeds and so forth during the Iran-Contra affair giving us an inside as to what really goes on under black ops operations. Despite the destruction and shredding of documents relating to the affair, per chance about 20 thousand pages of the affair were mis filed and later found.
These FOIA documents and how Joy found out what Holly was really doing can really tell the story on people and their actions. They might be telling you one thing and patting you on the back like a friend when in reality they are a fiend. So much is revealed and Joy has been a thorn to so many that are playing a game and phony baloney with people.
It is reasonable to assume that a person that will outright deceive in one place will be one that will be hard to consider credible in any instance. That we see so much of this going on in government circles is a shame.
Indeed, so much is nowadays found out by old records and even new ones that formerly were kept out of the public eye. It is no longer easy to hide wrong doing unless you happen to be protected by trade secret laws or National Defense laws. Even trade secret laws if something gets to be told and known are not effective defenses–yet people are afraid of law suits so keep their mouths shut despite the poisons added to such things as retardants. Well how can you add poisons to poison anyway–except they deny they are dispersing poisons even while thousands of fish die immediately and people fall sick and die. What a joke they pull on the public–but propaganda is strong and the Psychologists that teach the methods to convince people to buy–whether a junk product or a lie–is down to an art and science. As I said if you are a Psychologist starting out–it is well known that industry and Corporate interests are ready to employ you at a much better salary you can earn as a counselor or worker at a mental health center.
America the beutiful–but some of our actors are behind a mask.
I would say that anyone attempting to restrain or block Joy toward he investigative courses is a person that has something to hide. Joy is one of those reputable people that you can not buy or deter from her straight forward honesty. I know of no other person better suited to investigative work if you really intend to get to the bottom of things and have all the facts and truth known. However, she would not be the one to lie for the boss to make him look good or for any other reason. He would have to walk a strict and honest line. That indeed might be a problem in the investigative world of government agencies.
Good morning ☀️
I barely slept.
I am not able to get on pc until noon so using a friend’s iPad
Do I feel the same on what I said on Holly at 11:50pm?
Sure. I am reading way too many emails on how she really corresponds.
I am sure she may think more when she writes government emails but even one of Willis emails was not a government email but his private one so it’s a mix I am reading
Man, world.
I believed in her.
So to read through emails it hurt 😞
And it was not on me what she wrote about but because I know all the layers of this fire I thought when she said she had a different research style than me at a conference May 2018 …I never knew it was tell one this thing and tell another something else. Or apologize to Willis and just had to ensure Willis knew she is not affiliated with this person or that.
John Dougherty when he writes a book on the Yarnell I hope not only to see a political spin on it but why when he heard 19 men died and he heard of two hikers…why he choose to get on his motorcycle in his sandals and take the long path as he has done to allow free speech here in a world where the media is controlled, John is not.
I am not gonna throw a certain avatar on here under the bus yet what you have done for John is recognized by the hikers as priceless. I know at times you favor one hiker over the other and it’s all good…if I ever meet you I will explain the phases it took to know who you are but until I pass on you are just the avatar on IM…but the world 🌎 should know you some day maybe some in Government already do…
Reading the records this week was not in my plans
This was my rest time but one entity has me on a one month to download all their links for they lock the links after the 9th of February 2020 so now my days is focused there.
I did find it disturbing what I read in one email thread on Elizabeth Nowicki and I hope one day if you did receive certain records you DO NOT hold on to it or make a book and I will be later this week requesting those same records you requested.
Now the loved one who loves Pooh Bear 🐻
It seems from the get go you had this set negative emotion on the hikers in reading emails very early on that you wrote to Holly and Doug and others…that’s sad. How did you come to that? Is it our time spent on IM? You never once spent in person time with me and I hope you do this 2020. I have spent many hours with loved ones of yours and I think one day you should take the time and energy and meet me versus this glaze you seem to have…
I have read hundreds of your emails to Government people and I strongly recommend you pull records to learn the past almost seven years if the very people in your ears were there for you or if they were not for your mission. It breaks my heart.
Willis, I am so very sorry for the losses and I want you to know that someone you know has been working his way to tell it all yet he keeps getting heavy Spiritual Warfare…but some day his story will come out. No it is not Cory Moser. Are you still satisfied with the SAIT SAIR product Willis?
How is it the Military reaches out to me not John Truett and State Forestry to do a Staff Ride? They want to know more about my Staff Ride. I explained my blog is non commercial documents to educate the world so I don’t do Staff Rides but I write on it.
I guided John Truett to reach me to bridge the military to do it yet funny I have to go through vetting process thru NWCG as the eyewitness but non related to Fire Industry can go no problem. I want to know when this happens because I will hike from Congress side the legal ways in avoiding their trail paths and just happen to be there and share June 30 2013. I may change my career path to Military just so I can get on a Staff Ride.
There is one specific loved one who carries this heavy burden over time in which created hostile work environment for some areas ( well documented) and I also seen it and even been shown by Holly I was all good ( ✌️ peace) then to see in 2018 what I did; uncalled for because I at that moment thought all was fine because what Holly texted me and told me and when I find that text the world will see it too because it says it right there so I was stunned by 2018 event…but that moment should never be used to avoid entry into any academy.
if any Academy refuses me Sonny I have enough documentation to prove I am not to be discriminated with because some other had their grief and uncomforted ways. I have spoken on my blog for educational purposes and to work through to the goal of complete lessons learned. I look not at the person but the behavior or lack of leadership of a person because it needs to be addressed. The 10 and 18 need to be looked at because I clashed for years on here with Bob and RTS on that topic yet I have never found in all my research one fire fatality 🔥 that obeyed all the fire orders.
Sonny, if any Academy ever used my blog as a resource or source to not allow me my education I have that covered. I am staying the course obstacles and all and will legally address it when the time comes. I am excited to learn the tools to become an Instructor this year. I doubt that Academy will refuse me entry because their clause states if any negative moments happen they can refuse registration ( I did my barder and trade and my class has been paid in full since Fall 2019 and been registered all these months so I am good and if they refuse me when I get there, I will obey and run it through the state to have their governing board in writing look at my end and documentation to show whatever reason I was refused I have it covered and documented…I have not done a thing wrong (my blog is freedom of speech much like here) and no more OTHERS PERCEPTIONS will be allowed me refusal to my education ..I want my Fire Weather education and I will not be bullied ever again. …and I have documented my schooling very well that if they ever used the 2018 orchestrated event of another I have enough public records and FOIAS to prove the person who was involved in event I walked away from and went to class …the other person has a paper trail of causing the discord not on me as my FOIAS AND PUBLIC RECORDS prove that. I will pull those records out. It is my time to get the proper education and I will keep doing it. I was recently asked what agency I want to taskbook with and Sonny I am still working it out if I want to go the International way versus just Arizona or National but If NASA and. NOAA folks have told me in our times together I intimidate them or when I have military communication specialist tell me they look at me as a leader to lead the truth to the front … I may take all my Fire Weather knowledge and go some squirrelly society of the wealth and power way as a private sector so my plate is open. I am kidding about the squirrel 🐿…I will never ever be tied to any level of cabels. I like the Forensic Weather, Sonny. I am a nerd like that. Yet Fire Weather has me too. We will see. Thank you for the compliment.
I was asked this week if I died today what would I want to be remembered by…
….?…..??…
I want my teenhood church pals Lesa, Bruce, Jack and Karen S. to know I am sorry I allowed my life to pass by and I paused so many years but the past child and teen traumas I locked up back then early on. I do not want to disconnect ever again. I am here until I am not, died. So I want them to remember me and just learned they all these years have passed and they never forgot me. It is like we last left off at.
I want to be remembered for calling out the big Chemical corporations because in my lifetime and Sonny’s too..these corporations make billions as we build homes and lives to just have them chemically alter our lives…from slurry drops to the Fire Industry foam products so please use the NO EMBERS product or at least look into alternative methods.
I am blessed to know my husband since 1988 and he has been such a good man…When Sonny first got my humorous email off the school teachers dating app because she was looking for a dance partner… 💃 we wrote about ballistics and numismatics and religion. Sonny seriously wanted a lady who could chew tobacco and spit at 100 yards and kill a cockroach. Or cook by cowboy campfire with a Griswold pan. He still would want that too. Sonny got his PHd because he thought the more educated the woman then all is good plus they had their own income and were self sufficient. He went for the education yet had hopes for a quality lady..he is the kind of guy who could live in a duplex with a lady where he has his separate area and she has hers and they meet up every ten days…he lives and loves life. I never seen a MORE productive man from 5am until noon. I was never in any affair with Sonny as some labeled us…Sonny and I are LIVE AND LET LIVE FOLKS plus he was the ideal “muddy buddy”..I will always know Sonny….he was cool with knowing I was the desert walker with some health concerns and I wanted to pioneer and I was before knowing Sonny. I had Snakeman 🐍 Tommy Maiden and Frank Serros blind fold me let me fall asleep and in sleep stage they drive vehicle anywhere I could not identify and I find my way home…They choose out by Bill Williams between Signal and Aguila..Bill Williams out way past the Moore’s…the funny part was I have hiked all of Arizona so I knew the Robson mine mountain 🏔 area…I knew I had appx a 30 mile hike but less if I went certain ways so when I stopped at Frankies on way home he was blown away. He said my sense for adventure was one of a kind.
This fire and knowing Sonny…he is more a firefighter than one knows..he taught me a lot. Yet it was Spring 2019 when I got home all I wanted to do was rest but the local kids yearned to see me and begged me to stop by and when I did they turned THEIR SPACE into a S130 S190 classroom with 10 and 18 signs all over but this kid that was terminally ill loved when I talked about RTS so he drew him like a military guy but in bottom corner had Nazi symbol and he wrote all the Fire orders at age seven. That flooded my eyes with tears. Not one adult in my local area was supporting my Fire journey but a bunch of kids WHO ARE OUR FUTURE did this FOR ME. They told me they can watch tv anytime but when I told them I had a mental block wanting to learn the ten and eighteen for my S130 S190 class on my prior visit they spent countless hours creating this classroom atmosphere and it was that..that pulled me thru as I saw one of the GMHS loved ones friends be my Alpha Supervisor Alan White and my GI was acting up that week.swelled up…and many of my instructors knew a lot on Yarnell as they talked about it but it was the look that Phil Bruglio gave when PJ Lingley talked about Eric Marsh that I put in a public records request and Phil’s boss was writing me which him and I are tied to IAWF so this year I invited Jayson for hike but never heard back yet… yeah I believe God placed all of us to do our duties yet there are some making MADE FOR PROFIT books that some of these loved ones rather glaze to that then to call me up and really learn where to begin why they lost a loved one June 30 2013.
In reading Hollys emails I may as time goes on do a blog post on what Holly’s struggled with in her search for answers for John Norman MacLean and Alan Sinclair and their book. I think by placing it out then it may help those who do have the answers..answer them for her.
For her to apologize about Charlie Moseley and his Facebook message in the way she did…I was not happy about it and that was the vent last night at 11:50 because some people speak raw and others peak with curiosity but slam them to others…yeah…she has odd way of dealing with her social skills. To me it is very disingenuous and as RTS may defend her and tell me on here..Joy, I have told Gary and I will tell you…it is the art of war…whatever
Now for RTS…I never been around an Academic quite like him… he has a unique authoritative way about him… anyone who has disparaged him over the decades in the industry had their agendas because he is a very kind educated caring man who really wants the young people to know the Fire Orders and Watchouts…he really cares. I just am a person who feels strongly he has been wrongly treated but you will see that when you are a truth sayer…write DND / DHD … It does not matter how much time you put in if you want to do right … you will face the consequences of much powers to be to destroy your name.
2019 did not go accordingly…2020 for me is going with the flow…do my courses…get my education…challenge any area that tries to shift those areas for me because I am doing all the right stuff…I love the conference times. But this year I will get to see one of Gods creations so I look forward to that. I am jam packed full of events. I did tell the military I would take their 50 to 60 soldiers …aka some leaders or leaders to be…bring it on..my trailing is not the state park and they will learn gobs of leadership tools. 🧰 🛠
I want to be remembered was what I was asked and my gut thought was I never did anything in life to be remembered…I was just me…but been told my nurturing areas are the areas people know me for…but terrible at calling you and asking how you are…I just am an in person gal.
Here is to a kick ass 2020 with go with the flow attitude
I know some think I am not a supporter of the CITY OF PRESCOTT but that is far from facts
What I aim to do is help the CITY OF PRESCOTT dissolve some clinging areas of insidious layers that has been over the years creating a discord – disconnect – hostile environment because of some who have used the tragedy in a way that has me down right floored as I read all the different entities PRR and FOIAs
I want to help make it great again for the person who earned his or her professional certificate but have been stuck appeasing or watching how they talk because of certain people with their alleged egos and victim roles.
That for sure has been so disgusting to read-
If the book of theirs come out and they use IM content or my blog and I have the index FOIA and PRR logs who asked for what and they claim it as their data as I read in some of these emails (they do not have my permission for their made for profit book from me at all – –
I told you Holly about stuff and I am reading it and it is strange how you convey to others…I can truly with firmness and fairness name you Holly as a background manipulator and I feel okay with it because I paid and I own and only I own the records to prove it
because anyone tries to get them now- you will learn they have dumped the records. Yes, on a historic significant fire which are suppose to be archived with the State Records as permanent – they destroyed them.
Yeah, make that book because yours is the one I will pay for a lawyer to legally use my records and fact check your book to ensure John does not do another book like he did not fixing errors like on prior books.
It is hilarious to watch you write on these emails you want truth yet then you go back and write your real agenda of trying to prove that Eric Marsh and the Granite Mountain Hotshots could not possibly have done anything wrong that day just because you don’t THINK they did… I have the records of the flaws and I will show the world the facts even if I die I have it all arranged- Even coroners know the controversial nature to me and my records and how I plan to unfold all this-
you know, I am so busy organizing but time to time names and headings catch my attention and I am sending the stuff out behind the scenes to prove what I say here is correct. I am not holding the data on you
feel free to engage on what I sent you IM folks
That woman tried her best to layer ugliness on a conference and its members I respect in May 2018 on me.
I am the lady you can record me anytime- Big Brother, I am sure is and gets to see up close my “spiritual warfare”
but not Holly…she speaks in public she asks people not to record even the event videographer.
I stand by my words and even tell you how flawed I am
You do not see me doing selfies with Erin B. yet Erin B.’s friends have reached me over time thanking me for doing what I am doing – it matters!
Joy,
Thank you for posting all this on IM and sharing with some behind the scene. Good stuff. However, I do have a WTF for you though.
You posted about her comment apologizing about SMJ Charlie Moseley (RiP) and his Facebook message in the way she did as being “very disingenuous and as RTS may defend her and tell me on here. …”
And the WTF is …. no way will I defend her Machiavellian tactics, no friggin’ way. From what I read those are people that are ” temperamentally predisposed to be calculating, conniving, and deceptive, ” How about this one? “yes you can certainly trust me to seek truth and facts only, on your behalf and GMIHC ). Really, can we?
In addition, it appears that she resides deep within the speak with a forked tongue tribe, probably as their revered and treasured spokesperson. ( https://youtu.be/HK32bUkBkSw ) All English Idioms – April 14, 2019
He who speaks with forked tongue is also covered in Matthew 15:18, Luke 6:45, and Proverbs 4:23. And it really all comes from your heart …
And now a video on the amazingly effective NO EMBERS wildland fire defense product since you mentioned it above in your post ( https://youtu.be/Bd-2B2lt4Pk ) He posts several on there
Wildfire Prevention No Embers Urban – Robert Kasowski – January 30, 2018
Reply to Robert the Second ( RTS ) post on January 11, 2020 at 1:16 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> And now a video on the amazingly effective
>> NO EMBERS wildland fire defense product since
>> you mentioned it above in your post
>> https://youtu.be/Bd-2B2lt4Pk
Fascinating product. Appears to work WELL.
Even just 10 minutes of anti-ignition protection would save a LOT of structures as a firestorm blows by… but this product works even far better than that.
Insurance companies themselves should start requiring WUI structures to have this kind of protection.
Wildfire Prevention No Embers Urban – Robert Kasowski – January 30, 2018
I met the man
His life story will amaze you WTKTT in NC
I have the product and when we do a private sector burn we plan to make a professional video of HOW it works “live”
it is amazing
I met the man in NC
correction
Wow, Amanda is really knocking IM–and there are plenty of redactions in the FOIA Joy received so she has said much more than the Prescott people want to allow. I think what they withheld is illegal–but WTKTT would have to have a look and decide or some lawyer. I don’t think they can refuse public records except names, addresses and phone number stuff. Maybe WTKTT will enlighten us. I certainly and JD certainly would want to know what has been said about IM by MS Amandabeno and company.
https://youtu.be/_fcztWHSqLE
Is that an ol sweetie at 1:11 u know Gary?
https://youtu.be/Tj83ImPEEW8
Does hurt to hear …
oh sigh…
I feel for the ones on the ground, Sonny
https://youtu.be/k0JHshyxPzc
Here ya go Sonny
1.7 billion to a 2.8 billion dollar fire season–almost double the pollutant toxic retardant on the ground–likely more than double if the retardant companies have their way and I don’t have the percentage of that 2.8 billion that goes to retardant spreading.
Maybe old mother nature has the greatest wisdom in fire fighting efforts–some of the wise ones have suggested that man’s intervention has caused a buildup of fuel to the point we now have the mega fires and the burning away of species of pine forest that could resist fires now leaves us to a bleak situation where prime forest land will be a very long time to replenish.
I certainly hope there is plenty of that 2.8 billion set aside for the sick elder fire ment for health costs. They might have a chance–as far as civilians and oceans affected by the retardant poisons look for a 50 year waiting period to just see if someone gets it. The Yarnellites won’t benefit, but perhaps because we are talking about Americas finest–the wild land and other type firemen–they might get a nod and any kind of nod if it helps someone survive after that kind of service (or anyone for that matter), it will be well done. Even the fish and oceans and environment will applaud if it has a residual effect of curbing the massive depositing of the agent like orange retardant dumping in the environment. And if you love your elders, add to that the dumping of these retardant toxins near residential areas.
Sorry folks, I love myself enough even at my depleted abilities at my elder age–but also my neighbors, the fish, the environment and the oceans. I love the forests too, but I do not but the idea that retardants are that more effective than water eventhough I do understand the weighted retardant drops better during a wind than water. But during a wind that retardant did nothing to save Yarnell except to fatten some mining rat and chemical company and greatly add to the purse of some panty stuffing retardant company CEO –off in Israel –Israel the major producer now) or the many other connected industries.
The pilots are not to blame and won’t hurt for their heroic actions–they will get paid the same, maybe more for dumping good old H2O and perhaps rest better with better dreams of a green forest, cleaner oceans and depleting dead zones, more live fish, and most of all more alive people–especially if it turns out to be your own grandma and grandpa.
In this mad word where most are living on the brink in a mad rush to make ends meet with Trump sending your sons off to a fucking desert full of crazies with killing on their mind–then there is little time to consider others, the environment, what the politico is saying when he opens his mouth in double speak that no one understands–even himself/herself because it generally has no meaning. Don’t expect action about the issues of health and retardant.
The only hope then remains to a few wild land fire fighting with the clout and integrity to egg those political no-nothings enough they start looking at the death toll due to both careless hiring of fire fighter bosses without careful screening, the retardant issues involving health and the killing of the elderly along with aquatic life and the oceans.
I have one of these bat hides in Psychology—almost a masters at NMSU and within only two course there was denied–it would be a Masters degree in Counseling and Educational Psychology–I had 27 hours there and it was only I believe 32 needed for graduation. I had also attended UTEP with studies in behavioral psychology. The University told me I was in the wrong world when someone got the wind I was only a couple courses away from graduating with a Masters degree –I already had the BA in Psychology for four years of Professor worship. I did not belong to any fraternity so all my work was the hard way–none of the cheat sheets for me for not joining.
However, I could have hired a lawyer friend, Glen Neumeyer–so well respected he became a federal judge who offered to take NMSU on. I am not one to engage in legal battles and I smile now that I did not. However I am suspicious since they did exclude me once they had two more years of my money in tuition, time and expenses–University books even are not cheap.
But they were right–In my heart I was only a good counselor for the down trodden, not the cookie cutter types that are on Snob lane–although I may have done a few of them good as well. So I took a different tack, Religious Studies and that is another story–maybe not worth telling either.
At any rate when dealing with people that you want to trust your daughter/son to be working fires under, you will want to consider it a very serious matter. I have a photo of my son I lost at age 29 due to a careless boss. As tough as I think I am, tears well still well up when I look at that photo and reminisceSo our times together. So much is lost to not only me but all his brothers and sister and of course his daughter, his mom, and even many of his friends and he had many. He was a producer–Underwater welder off the shore of Houston Oil Rigs,. served the Navy on a Nuclear Sub, was doing Chemical Engineering. He had a list of things in life he was to accomplish–listened to baroque music for studies and Western music in his Jeep. He loved life as I do. I say this because we can not stress how important the safety issues should be regarded in employment and how important it is to get men / women/etc? in supervisory positons with the qualifications knowing they will put those youngsters lives above their own interests or some boss above them interests. And I consider a youngster even one who is older but a neophyte in doing his job–as my son was at that underwater welding job.
For instance, a psychopath can be one of the world’s best actors. In his early childhood he would be known to be a fire starter, enjoy torturing animals, and bed wetting up until age 12. Does that mean that person would be a psychopath if he had all those things early on–he might not or he might have tendencys that way or indeed he could be a full blow psycho that can smile at you but care less about your well being despite what his appearances might be. There are indeed psychological tests to ferret out individuals that would be psychopathic in nature and unsuited to trust as a supervisor in life and death situations. A reputable psychologist–say a Dr. Putnam type would be excellent to make judgements and tests.
Yet there is more to fire fighting than just a test. Even if one were psychologically suited for that position, it would take a panel of unbiased anc very experience indiviuals in the fire fighting community to see if other things with the individual would fit. Folks, we are dealing with young lives here, so I would want an individual or so of good repute on the panel as well.
As it is today, I believe promotions are only based upon politics, ability to manipulate, conjole and brown nose your way up the ladder. It is the good ole boy system where everyone says cheers at the same bar, or rolls on the floor for Jesus at the same church–more or less. Well if you are a minority you might get somewhere on the lower echelons by the government 12 per cent rule in hiring.
I have learned over the years about psycopathy, sometimes by experience and sometimes by books. These days you can google the term and know much of what people pay thousands of dollars to have a bat hide to present themselves as experts. Be aware as I saw that black cop on TV say–be safe.
Please forgive me for not proof reading–I know I often mangle the King’s and now the Queen’s English. King George would have had me beheaded but the Queen is more restricted these days, although I might have a derisive look my way–enough to get you killed in some circles. But I suspect her Irish is worse than my English so maybe I can justify bad habits to some small degree.
I do respect the Crown-but on equal terms though I know that is only in my mind. The shape shifters and blue bloods have hold of the controls. But on the other hand, I am not interested to get my hands on them and my blood line would prevent in any event.
I took Spanish in four consecutive years getting to a bat hide–probably because I wanted to know what that Mexican wife was saying about me but also because a foreign language requirement and the Irish language was not taught, as it is in Ireland. It would be hard to believe that I had an A (or maybe even a B) in University English–but it is true I did get published in a prestigious Psychological Journal. So apparently the Psycho Professors don’t mind a few typos. And ain’t it fun if you just do not get too perfect and elevated until you are blinded by the clouds.
Whitey is bigger now almost as big as the Huskies. Mama Dog, if she gets in the house is so long she waits till I turn my back and stands up and grabs my butter–likely does not want me to take on the extra cholesterol and you dare not remove an item from her mouth once she gets hold of it.
Blackie is fine but Brownie, the largest Husky lost his life trying to down a medium sized Javelina. So Joy, next time you try to save a Javelina I don’t advise taking your little pup, May, along.
Cheers, Beers, and to Sláinte . Sonny and whatever aliens nearby that ruined my coolpix 900 after documenting their craft–or was it the shape shifiting Trump craft. If I can get a closeup cleaned up, it likely will say TRUMP, Inc. For Pres — Cheers, Beers and-to Sláinte
Some people take colloidal Silver to cure certain aliments–nothing I would advise, although if you like the color blue or grey and take enough you can become a grey or blue. Who knows, Silver is one of the best conductors of electricity so maybe it stimulates the electrical system in the body. Copper is also a good conductor and not as good as silver, but copper is also poisonous–so don’t improve your circuits with copper solutions.
In 1973, Nixon took us off the Gold standard. There were just too many dollars out there and the foreign interests were trading their Federal Reserve Notes into gold. He stopped that since there was not any gold left to cover all the paper out there–it was a run on gold since the rich and wealthy knew that. And as you saw they were right–gold went from $35 per ounce to $300 and now hovers around $1300. Gold had historically ranged at about a 15 to 1 ration with silver–why I suspect you will do well to get yourself a bit of silver.
The other thing, when Nixon took us off the Gold standard, it moved us to the dollar and the oil standard. The Saudi’s were one of the big gold buyers and instead a deal was made to provide them with desalinization plants, construction projects, nuclear and military equipment, roads a substance and technology and so forth–we could thereby continue to deal in oil–our gold mining was not fast enough to provide for the billions we were providing of phony money.
I mean you can run your printing presses and as long as people take paper on faith it is fine–but when they start to cash the paper in for real value then you are in big trouble. So now you see why it is so difficult to wean ourselves from oil. The technology is there but once we take ourselves off oil the big players in oil will suffer losses.
Of course the one tenth of a percent that own 40% of the wealth should be able to figure out some way to keep increasing their position and power, yet once people wise up they will suffer to some small degree.
Right now with the elections costing in the millions, the corporations own the politicians–how else can they get into office–so do not expect any changes. They even own the Supreme Courts–Corporations, multi national as they are have by the Supreme court been ruled to have individual rights even though the alien that gathers your fruit, does the farm and ranch work that Americans are loath to do–the wage is so minimal–those people have no individual rights. Doesn’t make much sense.
But he who has the gold–the masters of society–have so much they own the media. And as Adam Smith had written, the wealth holders have to be protected from the masses. And one thing is certain, now that we live in corporate America, the wealth owners will continue to take care of themselves and the masses will pay the dues–not those corporations–they are too big to fail–the taxpayer must bail them out–Regan, Bush and Obama have all been at the beckoning of the finantial institutions, Chrysler, and so on. And who suffers to pay off these failures__the taxpayer of course.
So certainly the American thinks he is doing well despite the fact that most are in debt and just about everyone in a household has to be employed just to keep up the mortgage and beans on the table. What happened to the American dream–well call Verizon and if you talk to some Indian in far off India or some other country where that person is paid a pittance then you see why this country is going down the tube–has been since the 60’s but the multi national bankers and corporation owners could care less as long as their multi national systems continue to increase their profits. Why after all should they–they are loyal to as Bush and all recent Presidents call it the New World Order. You are expected now to relegate yourself to being a third world nation since markets are a world thing now and despite Trump’s threats to put up tariffs, the trend continues and the dollar–a debt note continues to devalue–be prepared to see some drastic events in this 21st Century–they will come–the corporate masters of societies own this country, they own the politicians, the Presidents, the media, the military, the police, authorities, schools and the prisons even are now on the big business stock market program.
I would say get ready for a bumpy ride–get out of debt where you can and do not be surprised if all hell breaks loose. That is just common sense–the experiment of a free democratic society really never was–the elite have always protected themselves and only during the heavy riots, protests and unions were the masses able to get their fair share of the wealth and to exercise the power that rightfully belongs to them–not corporations that have purchased the system and politicians put into office with their millions–remember Corporations are individuals–they have the right to buy these people.
Then you see why retardants are not even considered by government–why Trump is allowing mining operations, fracking, plastic pollution next to rivers and giving a shit less about the oceans being ruined and the environment being trashed and that cancer now where at least one in four have it is on its way to where 50% of the population will come down with it.
If you want to make money as a psychologist then go to work for the Corporations–they pay good money to their psychologists, doctors, and medical experimenters. They revel in power and methods to control the masses. What happened to government by the people and for the people–It is not government by the Banks, Financial entities, Insurance Companies, Oil interests, and Corporations and government for those entities.
Will it change–it is, I fear, beyond repair–Hitler’s dream of a World dominant power run by a few elite is in the works. When they will unleash their fury knowing that the world population is due to be 9 billion in about 30 years I do not know–but as Ted Turner will tell you and many of his elite friends–there are too many eaters–their problem is what to do about it.
And as far as free energy–no way–not even water is free these days. There is no profit in free and clean energy.
I wondered where this diatribe came about–maybe because today I was in the El Paso area looking for a taco bell–I stay away from meat and wanted a bean burrito but could not find one so opted for a Mac Donalds and use the excuse that a chili burger would do–they use a hot green chili and give you a double cheese burger for a couple bucks. I further excuse myself because I had Whitey (Mila) with me and I can remove one of the patties and give it to her.
So I go in and the girl at the cash register, instead of serving me at the register insisted I use that finger thing to order. She came around and oh you need to learn how to use this–I will help you thing. I said no, I just want a double chili cheese burger and a senior coffee–after about 5 minutes of annoyance, she finally went back to the register and put my order in there.
That poor girl does not know how that machine wil soonl take her job so that there will no longer have to be a register–in fact I think you can pay there with a card, order with your phone and maybe even put cash into the thing.
I don’t know where people had their fingers before they came in and I do not intend to poke my finger where 50 or a 100 others had poked before me. As technology increases the profits for MacDonald’s it decreases the value of individuals. But MacDonald must award itself with more profit–and a corporation has no conscience–though the Judges say it had individual rights.
Vote at the next election for your favorite Corporation, i mean President.
“Vote at the next election for your favorite Corporation, i mean President.”
that’s funny!
Joy, not funny fact. People are fooled into believing they have some say in their government but the muti national bankers, the corporations, oil companies and conglomerations have things pretty well sowed up so the masters of society are not really our Presidents, Congressmen and Judges. Even after the Corporations buy these candidates into office with their millions, then they also with more millions lobby the Congressmen –they are not restrained with their money since the courts gave corporations the same 14th amendment rights as a natural person. They can not be restrained in their buying of presidential candidates, offices of Congress, lobbying rights, and whatever individual rights a natural person would have under the Constitution. As ridiculous as it is, it shows the Judicial branches are part of the scheme. You can see the poor alien doing all of America’s dirty work is a natural person yet not considered one even though he may have been residing in this country as a worker for decades. It is a travesty against 99% of Americans because it gives all control to the super rich.
And do not tell me that corporations, multi-national bankers, finantial instutions, insurance companies and the like that provide the millions to get these men elected will be throttled in any way. The burden of taxes will be to the worker bee and just as GE had pay 0 in taxes and major companies manipulate ways to avoid taxes–they will continue their quest to keep the worker enslaved. But they keep facts, just as Trump will not reveal his finances and what taxes he pays, so will they continue to rape the worker of his wages while they by hook and crook will avoid and have legislation to keep their taxes as a shameful minimum.
And the minute these types want another major war something will be invented to stir up the public enough that the masses will gladly give up more freedoms so they feel safe. But the long run of it is once those freedoms are removed they will not be returned. Psychologically, once people are contained and accustomed to their roles as slaves they will gladly accept them. The methods to keep them that way are well done through well planned adds and psychological methods to keep the public under debt and under fear tactics.
We tremble about terrorists, yet in 2017 there were 85 so called terrorist attacks. But they were not Islamic extremest for the most part but what are called right wing terrorism. Like the nut that shot up El Paso lately. But the media makes the 85 look like America is at war with terrorism while over 900,000 people go missing every year, CDV (Cardiovascular disease) causes 840,768 deaths (635,260 cardiac) in 2019, cancer rates are beginning to take over heart deaths, and influenza killed 80,000 between 2017 and 2018.
I have to believe the corporations are getting away with murder and expecially the chemical companies. I know Monsanto has had to pay the piper but that is part of their business plan–they know the deadly effects of the chemicals but are willing to pay some toward the medical suffering of people as part of the business plan.
“But the point is, when Bush and company wanted a war he got it and public was cheering it on after the World Trade Center ordeal. And who would not in America. But looking back on Roosevelt WW11 and the Pearl Harbor event it is well documented now that the secret files are open that he knew full well the Japanese were going to hit Pearl Harbor in ample time to defend–we had all their codes and he was told from several different competent Naval and other sources they were on their way. People that warned him were told he would handle it–and so he sacrificed 2401 lives that included 68 civilians so there would be an excuse to get America into WW2–he had ran on a no war ticket but took care of that.
The same goes to the Lusitania to get Americans mad. 1195 were killed there including 125 Americans–A passenger ship that the Brithish had Americans on board and it is now known by records and proven that both King George V and Churchill sacrificed to get Americans enraged to enter the war. Records prove that Churchill had asked the American Deligate House what would happen if Americans were killed on a Cruise ship. That particular ship was loaded with tons of munitions and arms from America–it was steered to where a known German sub was located and unprotected eventhough British war ships were located and kept at a port very near the Lusitania. This is true history revealed and documented after the fact. But the purposeful sacrifice of lives is now well proven by FOIA and other document in both instances and likely the late one of the Twin Towers which will some day prove out to be what it really was meant to do–get the Americans stirred up to go to war. And do not forget the Gulf of Tonkin incident that never happened concerning the Viet Nam war to upscale the war.
Politicians answer to the super rich and they will continue to do so and the propaganda to keep people doing their bidding will continue. The masses are not street wise so to speak and true information from government takes a long time to reveal under National Secrecy Acts. Mainly after all the culprits are long gone.
So it is with the chemicals and retardants. I have been trying to understand why so many aluminum powders are spread in the air–One thing aluminum powder added to explosives makes a super explosive. I have to believe aluminum and other powders added to jet fuel enhances the fuel just as it does explosives. The chem trails are real, no denying them. But these chemical companies that provide these things are not concerned about the effects on environment and health no more than Trump is concerned about the deadly chemicals and fetilizers used on his many Golf Courses. Profit is primary and the environmental issues and health issues according to his rhetoric are overblown ideas of the egg heads.
Well never mind the hundreds of thousands that die every year from heart attacks and more hundreds of thousands of cancer= lets worry the hell out of people about right wing terrorist attacks in the amount of 85 (2017-2018)–and declare war on Afghanistan, Iraq and now Iran and beef up drone kills and send thousands of troops over into the land of angry crazies because we are there on their territory. It is almost laughable if you know the facts but sad because for this protecting of oil we are killing our finest. Shit terrorism in America is down to mostly American crazies that go ape shit–not many Arab types get the opportunity and those that did during 911 according to many sources could have been stopped. Things look mighty suspicious when Building 7 came down and over 1500 engineers say it was not possible except by demolition and had to sign a petition so the government finally investigated how it . would come down and who but a paid government employee well connected to the powers that be investigated–and said a diesal tank caused the collapse despite 53 steel beams only 3 ft apart supporting that building all around the out sides and so strong the CIA, FBI and many other federal offices had their nests there.
Too many firemen and New Yorkers were street wise on that incident–but like the Pearl Harbor, Golf of Tonkin, and Lusitania incidents, secret files will take years to float the surface.
It comes down to Yarnell–It has been presented as the fellows that have the bellows wanted it presented. Although we have internet, obvious purpose to create a different story to the facts, I see how collusion, mum orders, superficial investigations and the fire gods can maintain status quo–that with their lawyers and mucho tax dollars will be hard to defeat.
Too many of these shows carry on too long causing more of the same.
These are my opinions–take them with a grain of salt if you wish–or research on your own–you may be surprised.and become street wised if you are not already.
I said 85 right wing attacks, meant 85 killed in right wing attacks 2017-2018–no amount of deaths should happen but compared to the thousands of soldiers we have lost in Iraq and Afghanistan 85 deaths here so we sacrifice thousands of soldiers and wipe out even more thousands of the Arabs to protect the corporation and world banker interests in oil. That oil is not worth sacrificing all those young lives for, most especially since we are fracking oil and exporting it off shore to other countries. The greed is not the Ameican people on the main–It is the greed of the individuals involved in the Oil Business. And do you hear Trump or any of the other side of candidates saying one thing about the truth of the matter–no they keep the public diverted by arguing over whether Trump should be impeached or stupid shit that has nothing to do with important affairs
While we certainly have electric cars and methods to ween us from oil very quickly to get these polluting vehicles and methods removed, the profits in free energy are not to be made–and that should be one big issue in the election since the technology is there to produce energy so cheap it would change the economy so people would be working half the hours they now work to maintain.
I have to believe it is about control–the masters of society want people in a quandary driven to the point they must spend all their time in a slave job that most do not enjoy instead of having that free time to do their own projects and use their brains instead of being lashed to some unproductive work that benefits the masters.
We have evolved into a corporate society–damn sure not the democracy that the politicians want you to believe. Two candidates working for the same multinational banking and corporate organizations is not conducive toward the good of our country–certainly not toward the freedoms our people should be enjoying. Tied to a job, and many are needing two job, and both husband and wife, even the kids working to make ends meet is a slave society under control of a few that are reaping the profits and benefits to themselves.
Free energy would change that greatly and free up many. But just as JP Morgan said about anything free–there is no money in that. These super rich think only of themselves and look at the masses as so many worker bees and so many eaters that they have privilege and wisdom. Certainly their wealth buys them power and control of just about every situation, but it benefits the people, the environment, and health very little.
There is no conscience in corporations considering humanity and the environment. These so called Presidents for the people and leaders for the People, the main Media and even the Judicial, Police, and Armies are at the charge of the super wealthy–the American people have little say in things–they indeed are under the thumb.
Certain that it will be hard to change–but the American youth have some hope with the internet–
Don’t expect Trump or the Demos to address the holes in the atmosphere, the continued depletion of forests, the issues about many cities having as low as 6% oxygen in the atmosphere. Yes I know they will mumble something about health care as the environment is being laced with pollutants causing health problems.
And they will continue fighting “Terrorism” abroad and filling the prisons with drug wars that by their methods only continue to escalate. Yet that is what the super rich want since confusion among the masses keeps them dummed down.
And this is about Yarnell because Yarnell is a prime example of how states and governments can fleece the public and hide the facts behind a false investigation. Even turn their faces in the deaths and sickness after the retardant caused to people at Yarnell and deny the truth at the expense of America’s finest. Will conditions, benefits and pay increase for those that suffer the most==the elderly suffering and dying from the chemical retardants and the men who have their lives on the line fighting these wild fires and the loved ones who have lost their husbands and wives? Change– I hope so.
Well it is food for thought, my opinions–and smile while you are on candid camera–enjoy the ride if you can.
Joy loves pop corn–so I do enjoy it as well. Maybe the only thing Wal Mart sells that is not China junk is the Souix City PoP corn called Jolly time. It comes in a plastic bag–something I wish it did not–but it is verified NON GMO, and labeled White Pop Corn. A tribute to the American Farmer that grew it–I am hoping they did not spray too much poison on it. However, corn is shucked–I have done that by hand when working as a cowboy on the Brock Cattle Ranch. (Charlie grew corn as well as cattle). So the shucks would contain the poisons and very little would be on the corn itself.
You get two pounds for two dollars and as a pop corn popper, I can tell you this is the best popping corn I have come across in a while–virtually every kernel will pop,.
I use a stainless steel skillet about 2 1/2 inches deep and 12 inches in diameter. My gas stove does great but also I use my tin wood heater and get good results as well. I keep another skillet handy with a bit of water in the bottom and once the corn is popped I set the stainless down into water skillet to cool the bottom. That is because my wood stove heats up the skillet so hot I get a scorched layer of popcorn on the bottom if I don’t.
My formula is to add crushed garlic as I start popping the corn. It keeps my dog back and the salesman at a distance. Maybe good for door to door politicians as well.
If you have a sweet tooth add the butter and top with Grandma’s Molasses. Delicious.
I enjoyed small talk with Joy–she is still having issues getting FOIA reports–government, city and state officials try to be above the law. FOIA’s reports can not be denied–these are one of the most important rights made possible by President Johnson in 1966. An informed public is a good policy. So depite Johnson lying about the Gulf of Tonkin and getting more of our heroes killed, he had done a few good things.
It is damned sad when our officials continue to deny that right to citizens and use every possible excuse and most especially when it is obvious they do not want the public to know the facts. Civil servants need to respect the law despite their efforts to control information. Perhaps Joy, RTS and others who are constantly bombarded with denials will get justice.
Can you imagine people only having to work half as much and having need of only one job instead of two. That would be scary for the power mongers. People would actually have time to think and investigate and even become aware of how they have been screwed into a system that has them so enslaved that they must take on two jobs to make ends meet.
I sincerely believe if people had time to research and find out the facts that your FS and other officials that are getting by with false presentations, redactions and methods to fool the public they could not present their bad actions as God’s fault and someone slipping on a banana peel. I think the FS is safe–they know the routine.
Happy New Year
Some pretty impressive video of a bushfire in WSW Au
“Firefighters from New South Wales Fire and Rescue Station 509 Wyoming captured video as a raging bushfire raced toward their apparatus. The crew placed protection over the windows as their apparatus was overrun by the fire near Nowra.”
Not quite sure about WHY they were driving through this and so, it looks more like they were racing toward the raging bushire rather than the bushfire racing toward their apparatus as the article states.
Impressive fire behavior nonetheless.
( https://www.firehouse.com/apparatus/video/21119660/new-south-wales-firefighters-drive-through-bushfire-burnover-shelter-in-place?utm_source=FH+Newsday&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=CPS200102021&o_eid=5668G1183545G6J&rdx.ident%5Bpull%5D=omeda%7C5668G1183545G6J&oly_enc_id=5668G1183545G6J )
While everyone continues to just ‘oooo’ and ‘ahhhh’ over the video footage… at least one Aussie firefighter still has a grip on reality and has posted publicly how WRONG this all was… and that they should have NEVER been in that situation in the first place.
From one of the YouTube links where this burnover video has been officially posted…
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8DcgjgtLEg
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Comment from: Daniel19341 – 1 day ago
So many things wrong with this video.
Paid urban firies in a truck not equipped with personal protection driving through a fire front.
Incident Management Teams should NOT have even assigned them to this location.
Urban pumpers are for asset protection in urban areas, not fighting and driving through bushfires. These guys were lucky to not have died. They were out of towners who didn’t know the area and shouldn’t have been deployed there. Have we not learnt lessons from tragic events like the Victorian CFA Linton Forest disaster or the Wingello 1998 New Year’s Day bushfire tragedy in the past. I suspect that the debrief after the fire will address this particular. And before anyone wants to jump on my comments and criticize me, i will point out that I have 13+ years of experience as a paid and volunteer firefighter and know that these guys have been put in a very dangerous position in an ill equipped truck. RFS vehicles are designed to give more protection for these kinds of situations, and volunteer firies practice over and over how to maximise their chances of survival using cabin sprays, roll down heat shields and proper use of woolen blankets inside the cab. As current paid staff i have not practiced any of those same skills in 2 years as it is not a mandatory requirement like the RFS, and I have deployed to the same types of fires recently, so I know what I’m talking about. This video is not showing heroism, It is showing poor decision making somewhere along the line.
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Important quote(s) from above…
This video is NOT showing heroism,
It is showing POOR DECISION MAKING somewhere along the line.
Yes indeed. This was definitely poor decision making and a bad decision with a good outcome to boot.
This was posted yesterday (Jan. 2) supposedly from the FFs themselves.
“”The Australian firefighters who were caught in a burnover while battling a bushfire in New South Wales on Tuesday were able to protect themselves and survive the deadly flames, which engulfed one apparatus.
In a video by the New South Wales Rural Fire Service, the firefighters of Strike Team Pump 48 discussed how they were able to escape the treacherous situation.
“‘At the time it was quite chaotic,’ Capt. Kayle Barton said. ‘And we had to wait for the fire front to pass.’
“When Barton radioed command, he said that the apparatus had been overrun, and his crew needed ‘immediate help.’ Barton also explained he wasn’t sure ‘how much longer we can be sheltered.’
“‘The fire front here came suddenly in less than 30 seconds. … It rose up higher than the treetops and came over us,’ Barton said in the video. ‘By that time, we were trying to turn our pumpers around and make our way and by that point the fire front hit us side on.’
“‘I managed to get it in reverse and perform the U-turn to try to get us out of here. But as I soon as I did that, our truck stopped and wouldn’t drive,’ added firefighter Chris Towe, the pumper’s driver.
‘Firefighters in one apparatus used fire blankets and placed them over the windows, Barton, Towe and the firefighters in the other pumper fled their vehicle and used fire shelters for protection.
‘Radio contact eventually lost with Strike Team Pump 48, and rescue crews were afraid what they would find once they reached their colleagues.
“‘We thought we were going back to recover eight bodies,’ said firefighter Jason Rutherford, who was part of the rescue unit. ‘As we were going down the road, very, very relieved to see eight flashing helmets walking down the road. They were all safe and sound, so you saw our relief there.'”
Watch this video titled: The Deadman Zone published Aug. 3, 2008
( https://youtu.be/uMGuiv2SYeg )
And then read this research paper titled: The Deadman Zone – A neglected area of firefighter safety
( https://www.researchgate.net/publication/237695247_The_DeadMan_Zone_-_a_neglected_area_of_firefighter_safety )
“Firefighters engaged in parallel or indirect attack are working in a
‘dead-man zone’ if they do not appreciate the time and space
required to find a safe refuge. In this zone, if the wind direction
changes, the fire can advance so rapidly that the firefighters have
very little time to seek refuge in the burnt area behind a
suppressed portion of line, or egress elsewhere, before the fire
overwhelms them.”
The Dead Man Zone is basically “Unburned fuel between you and the fire” covered in Watch Out #11 .
And while reading the paper and the specific cases involving FF burnovers and deaths, it should become readily apparent that they had NO lookouts to warn them of impending danger from wind changes in direction and the increased fire behavior that followed.
This is a really good PDF graphic of the Dead Man Zone that helps put it into perspective for your for those needing visual learning
( https://gungahlinruralfirebrigade.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/the-dead-man-zone1.pdf )
RTS and WTKTT–Those videos represent exactly why the almost minimuml wage firefighters start with are ridiculous. Here in NM I see that the minimum wage is now above $10 per hour–much more than the .75 cent minimum wage when I was a 17 year old in New Mexico, however, it only goes to show how money value has depleted since the $10 does not represent a better wage, even less that the value of 75 cent in the late 50’s.
I understand the wages for the man on the line was only $15 per hour–and if that is so he is not much better off than if he were flipping burgers. Then you look at how the wild land fire fighter is constantly put to unreasonable risk such as the video we saw in Australia and the actual fact of what happened to kill the 19, then it is obvious that the fire fighter is well below what he should be paid.
The government is spending billions on retardant, has not owned up to the fact that the chemicals are having disastrous effects on health for the fire fighter along with the inherent dangers that are magnified by bad decisions.
I have to suppose there is no union or if there is it is not very effective concerning the wild land fire fighter. I would guess the bosses draw a fairly decent wage for their experience and expertise–something I can see would be appropriate if they are not prone to be of the ignorant types that have little understanding of wild land fire fighting and would do what we saw at Yarnell and in that particular video. One has to wonder with so many needless deaths if the habit of needless risk and bad decision making is not a fairly common situation.
So I would hope the politicos that assign the blank checks to wild land fire fighting would begin to look at how these men/women are grossly underpaid considering the facts about the inherent dangers magnified by bad decisions, and accented by the disease factor they face from the chemical and smoke exposure
It is sad that a politician can sit on his fat ass in a political office much like a drone and draw a nice fat salary with money to stuff in a strip clubbers panties, yet the man out doing the work and producing results by risking his life and health is paid so poorly. It is a shame to our society that this is allowed.
One thing I liked being an underground miner was that my pay was always a multiple of what my boss made. Of course it is some different of an occupation and you are paid for what you produce. There the boss was more of what we called a nipper–the nipper was someone to bring you supplies and the honey dipper was drawing the same wage–the honey dipper of course was the shit house cleaner.
So yes I can see that bosses on a fire line are a different situation and stand along side the miner who also was responsible for the life of his helper and anyone in range of his work. The fire fighrer boss would need long term experience to preform his job properly and keep his men safe. But it stand to reason that experience alone would not make a good boss–something we saw at Yarnell, if indeed the men responsible for killing their crew did have the experience qualification at all.
For my part I am at a loss as to why the system can be funded so well yet neglect the very people that do the dirty work. Yet it is well known that unless there is an organization such as a union the neglect will continue.
Sonny,
You posted: “Then you look at how Then you look at how the wild land fire fighter is constantly put to unreasonable risk such as the video we saw in Australia and the actual fact of what happened to kill the 19 …”
The WFs and FFs are only “constantly put to unreasonable risk” such as in Australia video and the GMHS debacle when they actually allow themselves to be put in those positions by accepting it in the first place; or willingly place themselves there on their own initiative without being :order to do it. Nobody forced them to do what they did.
You also posted: “I can see that bosses on a fire line are a different situation and stand along side the miner who also was responsible for the life of his helper and anyone in range of his work. The fire [fighter] boss would need long term experience to preform his job properly and keep his men safe. , …”
I take another view and think that the bosses on a fire line are in a similarly hazardous situation and NOT a different one. Therefore, the WFs and FFs stand right beside the miner who is also just as “responsible for the life of his helper and anyone in range of his work”, in the case of wildfires, other WFs and FFs.
Management must also do their part, and yet it’s the WFs and FFs that are on the firelines that must make the critical decisions and actions to keep themselves safe.
I agree that the WF / FF boss would need long term experience to preform his job properly and keep his men safe. This was apparently lacking in some of the GMHS key leadership.
I follow what Brazilian researcher Maurizio Catino writes about with his dual role accountability of “Individual Blame Logic (IBL) and Organizational Function Logic (OFL)”
( https://cope.ku.dk/publications/2008_LOGICS_IN_ACCIDENT_ANALYSIS_-_M._CATINO.pdf )
BOTH are responsible in their own way at varying degrees in all human failures.
Of course your experience and long term wisdom at wild land fire fighting weighs much above my own. You certainly would be at excess danger in a mining situation without experience as I would on the fire line with my limited knowledge and experience there. I would have to rely upon your wisdom to keep me alive in many situations where my own lack of understanding and experience with movements of fires would have me killed–but you would be there to point out the problems and likely explain why if there were ample time–or at least later over a Guinness or chocolate soda.
My experience with miner’s helpers was that their youth or if older inexperience would have gotten them terribly injured or killed had I not know the many rules and instincts of keeping alive. Nuances develop over time and I as Honcho with the Pancho have the responsibility to watch out for those that are simple in understanding. Good lord would you turn Donut loose and expect him to live long without a suprevisor in a wild land fire situation?
Certainly you would want to blend the idea in that an individual is responsible for his/her own safety–though not in my opinion with the baby. If you allow your baby to play with a vicious dog and he has his face eaten off then you indeed have culpability. If you allow a simpleton like Donut to hang in a place where he is certain to face death rather than have him move to a safe zone then again you are culpable.
When Ted Putnam saved those men by cursing them out it was his duty as an experienced wild land fire fighter and smoke jumper to preform that action. He likely would have never been held responsible but his conscience–and I know him well enough–would likely have done him in. And I have to believe you have saved a few neophytes from self destructing on a fire situation.
There are certainly many technicalities in understanding wild fire behaviour and book learning of such can really only be understood by much time on the line.
My first experience in contract mining was at Fierro, NM back in the early 60’s. I was assigned to a raise–one type of mining where you have no helper because it is simply too dangerous. You depend upon stulls held in place by wedges and if you are up (that one was a 150′ raise from the 300′ level up to the 150′ level). In doing raise mining you go straight up from a lower level–they are used as ore chutes where once completed the ore from the 150′ level would be dumped down the chute to the 300′ level. So too many miners are up maybe half way or more and because they did not take care their working board comes loose and down they go including their machine, steel, timber and generally the outcome is very bad–.
So yes in those situations you learn quick or die soon. It was my first raise mining experience and so I fell more than 30 foot with my timbers, jack leg, steel and Oh Shit. I found myself stuck in a wet muck pile from a previous blast–timbers and machine, steel and all landed fortunately not on top of my carcus. I was a bit shakey after that ordeal but after digging my boots out of the muck pile you can be damn sure the next set of stulls went in properly and did thereafter. Strangely that very same week down that very drift another miner got his head stuck in a hydraulic chute door and squashed so it was not recognizable. He was trying to get loose a boulder holding the door open and why he had his head in there I don’t know–maybe looking at why the boulder was stuck. Those chute doors are actually operated off air cylinders and you can imagine how quickly they shut and with extreme force–neeedless to say a grizzly sight to see a man’s head look like a pan cake. But he was one learning and not understanding the job he had to do. You would think that common sense would have saved him, but I rather think a good boss would have taught him to keep your head, hands and pecker out of that door way. But my own experience, as well would have been nice to have had a raise miner give me a few hints on how to lock in a stull better that I was doing without experience of having to drill off timbers only holding with wedges.
So would you agree that these wild land fire fighting bosses ought to have a rigorous going over by men such as yourself, Putnam, Woodsman, Olson, Powers, Norb, and the ones that would know whether that man/woman/etc. would qualify?
Sonny,
You make a lot of good points about the work and hazard and leadership similarities to mining. And then there are those especially concerning guys like the alleged GMHS “lookout” McDid-Not. I’m sure you had your share of them
I feel that I have done my part teaching WFs and FFs the right way to do things on wildfires and they have successfully passed that knowledge on in their careers to others as well. I give all the glory to Him for that.
I agree that these wildland firefighting bosses ought to have a rigorous going over by men such as myself, Putnam, Woodsman, Olson, Powers, Norb, and the ones that would know whether that man or woman would qualify. Not sure what the “etc” category was, so I’ll steer clear of that one.
RTS-Certainly your expertise has kept a few alive. There will always be some block heads that teaching and even experience goes unheeded. I think it is fair to say that most of the so called accidents are not evaluated correctly–the Yarnell killing the greatest example of late considering that human error, careless and disregard for safety issues were at fault.
I have to believe Marsh was in the wrong place as a wild land fire supervisor. His wilfull actions to risk lives needless and in more situations than Yarnell had him pegged as a disaster about to happen. Considering that he was responsible for those lives and his clout to demand orders caused the deaths. However he did some good since obviously he made it shown that it is exceedingly important to scrutinize very closely the men that become bosses in the fire fighting community.
I can imagine that he is only one example of where wild land fire fighter deaths occur for the same reason. I can also imagine such fellows get into positions they are not qualified for by political, good ole boy, cronyism and ass kissing methods.
It becomes obvious that men such as yourself in a small committee with many years experience–preferably elders that have been there and know the ropes along with a wise civilian or so –WTKTT would be a good example–sat on an evaluation board to decide who would be allowed such important positions where decisions of life and death of a crew are made. Even then performance habits should be kept by peers and time evaluations made to see if these bosses are being derelict in duty.
I saw from your report with Honda that Marsh would have been removed from his position some time before he caused the deaths of the 18 below him had such provisions been in force. His bad decision making was an ongoing thing according to reports and should have brought him to account earlier on. Certainly he had determination to be a boss and perhaps good intentions–but good intentions are useless if you are careless.
Unbiased people, people without agendas, political agendas, and cronyism and nepotism would be avoided and even ass kissers would be excluded from these positions when they had no business being responsible for lives with their limited abilities.
Prescott area is well known for its cronyism and nepotism–articles were written up by investigative reporters–Anderson I believe was one some years ago. Joy has those articles. That is a shame to a system, especially when lives are at stake.
If you believe that to be a good idea, the next time you go before a Congress it would be a good thing to present in my opinion.
I realize that such an evaluating committee of the wise men would be expensive and these men should be well paid. But think of the lives and millions of tax payer dollars such an evaluation committee would save and even if it saved one life it would save a world and the heart break of a multitude.
That should have read Unbiased people, people without agendas, political agendas and cronism would be the evaluators. Of course it would follow who should be avoided so people of integrity and concern for the safety issues too keep their crews safe become the bosses.
Forgive my usual lack to go back and correct my writings–I am one to not re read before posting. That is a fault in itself since we should all be careful in our decisions and as WTKTT is so good at in being precise. But when it come to decisions that involve life or death it is even more important that actions be precise and well thought out before rash and impulsive acts are performed.
Miners–damn sure sound the ground before you get under it and any loose ground you see or hear be sure to bar it down. Too many men are pushing up tulips because they neglected to follow some simple safety procedures.
I don’t mention women in the mining professions since, at least in underground work, and in all my years of mining, I only saw one. She was there because her dad was a judge and he had the clout to get her there where she believed it would be a job she would like. The poor girl was physically built so she could not even lift roles of wire mesh onto the flat cars to deliver to working areas. Well miners were having to do it for her–I had even done it once when in that supply area. Needless to say her stay did not last long–I remember seeing her only that one time and word was she was moved topside and working topside in an office.
We have to be qualified to do the work we do and if we are not then we find something we can be suited for.
Heres to the mud in your face and to the dirt in your eye if you are a miner and the smoke and chemicals in you lungs if you are a miner or a wild land fire figher. Cheers and sláinte
Woodsman–The etc category is so we do not leave out the gay community. Sex has nothing to do with firefighting–at least on the line, but there has been an effort to fight chauvinism. Therefore people of all races, sex preferences and so forth wish to be included on an equal setting. I am not gay and I imagine the percentage of gay fire fighters is approximately 10%, though likely less, if it is like the general population. Formerly I would refer to men without the extra slashes but then I am trying to get over my chauvinistic ways. In underground mining that attitude was expected–but above ground we need be acceptable of equality. Of course mining and wild land fire fighting would generally exclude those unsuited for the heavy physical labor and lifting. That is not to say there aren’t some tough gals that you see on muscle building magazines. Perhaps in firefighting, the feminine gender is ok–but of course underground the course of work would mostly be too extreme. Maybe swinging a Pulaski is not so taxing as slinging a 135 pound jack leg over your shoulder and hauling it up a 20 or 30 foot ladder then down a drift some 200 yards or more add to that the hoses of about 40 pounds and setting up slushers, digging and so forth. You can understand the physical effort a miner sometimes endures. At times I found myself and my helper carrying rail down a drift that weighed over 300 pounds–distances that would have been for good football training. But I also did logging and the year I worked for White Sands Lumber I did not see the feminine gender either. If you have ever fell and bucked trees, and I am sure you have, you know how strenuous the work can be. Not that women could not do it, it is just that few would be physically built to handle that chain saw and bucking all day long. is highly physical and taxing. There were 17 on the crew I worked on and no women in sight until you dropped off for an afternoon chocolate soda at the cowboy bar down the mountain from Cloudcroft, NM. That bar has since burned down so (I would have investigated the wives on that one)– I had attended a few dances there on weekends and the Rodeo Cowboys would ride actual bulls–The end of the bar was open so the Bull Riders were loosed at the end of the huge bar.
And yes, you and those men you listed–certainly if I had a son I would want your wisdom and theirs or men of such ilk to have investigated a boss before he was allowed the important decisions he would make that would determine whether my son’s or daughter’s safety would be in good hands.
We certainly understand that wild land fire fighting is similar to going to war, yet we are not the Stalinist Russians who would order their soldiers into machine gun fire even without weapons (to refuse was to be shot). Despite the similarities, fire fighter is not a military operative out to kill enemy soldiers nor to be sacrificed because some fellow would needlessly put them to risk because of his own interests.
But I would see it like I did mining–another day at war since your chance of survival goes way down once you drop off in a hole and get into action. Still no reason to not use safety practices or especially to needlessly risk the lives of those associated with you.
I hope that the communities involved in fire fighting, especially those that have the power controls, start to look more into these deaths and the use of retardants more instead of doing what they did at Yarnell. Here I see you men and women posting the wisdom that the community should listen to. I certainly do because I know that you fellows and ladies that have been in the business for so long have learned the lessons first hand, and as you are doing, in some cases teaching them. The travesty is that so many of these incidents of death are preventable yet presented as accidental with no challenges to make changes for the errors. And as long as this continues it will only mean future death situations that should not happen.
Sometimes the most dangerous situations are not the mines. Being reared in the mountains in a tent for much of my life or at a mine site where Dad was doing his mining, you can imagine I did not have street smarts. I did not have the suspicion needed in this world today. For certain there are a number of devious personalities on the loose.
The worse ones are the very intelligent ones. Intelligence does not necessarily correlate to integrity, sympathy and the human factor we expect of kindness and honesty.
So I have dealt with some of the CIA types and they are always well educated, have police and military backgrounds… You will not know they are agents until one of them by chance screws up such as my friend Jerry Tefoya did when he shot that dissident in the eye at Denver. He did not kill that fellow, so somehow, he was traced. But both failing in the kill and getting caught and hoping his CIA status would help still did not save him from prison time. Of course CIA denied and he took as I remember a 9 year prison sentence. Being a hero Green Beret and CIA operative, it likely helped him get an early reprieve. But one of his buddies, named Burke, a name likely made up had no problem spiking peoples drinks with LSD–and I am certain quite a few around TorC, NM felt the effects. These fellows are slap you on the back types with charisma enough to convince a frog to jump into boiling water instead of the slow boil people like to kill frogs with.
But do cover your drink if you are in TorC and switch if possible if you get a free one. You might fare better and perhaps live longer in some cases. But if they are in a hurry or want to get rid of you in a hurry it is usually a quick bullet to the brain or being shoved off a cliff. Well maybe the tiger has changed his stripes these days.
But it is not a situation we should have to deal with when investigating 19 deaths. Does anyone care about the future deaths and safety of wild fire fighters? You would wonder with the big hitters not looking at the deaths at Yarnell only in a cursory fashion.
Well fashion is a thing, and once it is established it is often hard to change–especially among men. Most of them still wear pants, although boot and shoe styles have changed–are we becoming more feminine in our thinking by following the yoyo up the street who wears longer shoes or cock roach killing boots with extended toes? I mean men have worn basically the standard shoe or boot for centuries–just look at some of the Cowboy photos of the 1800’s. So what is next–curling the toes of those boots and shoes once they find they will keep tripping and getting their toes stepped on?
Conformity can be funny but it is not always good. And that is what happened at Yarnell–too many conformed to the idea that it was an accident. No way Jose. But then that does make some feel good that they conformed to fashion.
Of course I re read now and should have been they did look at those deaths in a cursory fashion. Never even got cursed for it–or maybe it upset the Leprechaun.
Sometimes I wonder if there are really any bad decisions with good outcomes. It would seem that the kid sneaking cookies from the cookie jar and getting away with it is a good thing. Anytime someone preforms a careless act it sets an example but more that that it reinforces his behavior to continue.
In the RTS-Honda report it was noted that Marsh’s risk taking was something he was in the habit of doing–and kept doing. Some other crews had refused to do what his crew was doing because they saw the needless danger–as WTKTT has said on the video–they weren’t heroic–they were showing poor decision making. That poor decision making eventually led to the killing of 19.
So when these men are applauded for poor decision making as we saw in the deaths of the 19 GMHS crew, it makes me think that no matter how faulty your decisions are, they will be reinforced by applause. Should you kill your whole crew from your bad decisions you will be assigned awarded and wowed as a hero.
Reply to charlie post on January 7, 2020 at 8:15 pm
>> charlie said…
>>
>> In the RTS-Honda report it was noted that Marsh’s
>> risk taking was something he was in the habit
>> of doing–and kept doing.
The original logo for ‘Crew 7’ ( chosen and designed by Eric Marsh )… was a PAIR OF FLAMING DICE BEING ROLLED.
He had them coming up SEVENS in his logo drawing… but of all the things that COULD have been chose as a crew logo… just his choice of a PAIR OF FLAMING DICE to represent how he planned to run the crew probably tells you all you need to know about Eric Marsh’s fundamental approach to wildland firefighting.
As Gary Olson has pointed out many times… crew LOGOS are NOT chosen in a hurry. A lot of thought goes into them… and you DO want your logo to “represent” YOUR crew and YOUR way of thinking.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> Some other crews had refused to do what his crew
>> was doing because they saw the needless
>> danger–as WTKTT has said on the video–they weren’t
>> heroic–they were showing poor decision making.
>>
>> That poor decision making eventually led to the killing of 19.
Even SAIT Co-lead Mike Dudley acknowledged publicly that Eric Marsh and Jesse Steed decided to “roll the dice” with their own lives and the lives of the other men entrusted to their care.
Dudley himself even described their decision making using ODDS.
He said that “99 times out a hundred” nothing bad would happen.
What Dudley failed to mention is that he was also automatically acknowledging that even using HIS ‘odds’… the ONE time that kind of decision making might KILL you is the FIRST time you try it… because it is, in fact, fundamentally BAD decision making.
Here are two relevant comments made a while ago during this ongoing discussion of the 2013 Yarnell tragedy…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/yarnell-hill-chapter-viii/#comment-61831
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On July 16, 2014 at 5:51 pm, WTKTT said…
No matter what new evidence comes to light… there will still remain the fact that no one was out there with a shotgun pointed at them saying “Move to town and try to be heroes or I’ll shoot you”.
They ( and they alone ) are the ones that put one foot in front of the other for upwards of 40 minutes ( under all the conditions you describe above ) and at each step of the way had the chance to even re-evaluate their decision and ‘do something else’ based on ‘current and expected fire behavior’.
They didn’t.
They put one foot in front of the other for 40 minutes… put themselves in a horrible situation… and then they died.
HOWEVER… when you still have a major USFS authority figure and the actual Co-Lead of the ‘investigation’ of this very incident ( Mike Dudley ) getting up in front of rooms full of firefighters and telling them…
“99 times out of hundred… a move like this would have been fine”.
…you’ve got a problem.
100 times out of 100 times… a ‘move like this’ under the same exact conditions is NOT FINE… and people who are still ALIVE and trying to ‘advise’ other firefighters need to STOP saying that.
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On July 16, 2014 at 9:35 pm, mike REPLIED…
BINGO!!
Of all that WTKTT has written, this is as spot on as anything. Dudley may not have meant it that way, but someone might get the impression he was saying they were just unlucky.
No they were not.
They did something that had a maybe small, but definite chance of catastrophe, did not mitigate the risk adequately, and got caught.
Even if they had made it, it still would have been a bad decision AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN IDENTIFIED AS SUCH AFTER THE FACT.
———————————————————————–
Thanks WTKTT–You put it succinctly and so it is well understood. Certainly when you are responsible for a crew of young men, it is never OK to play the odds with their lives by wilful breaking of all common sense and safety rules.
Certain Jesus and whatever gods people might ascribe to had common sense themselves. Jesus would avoid nasty situations and when he decided to get himself killed among the jealous wolves–he did it alone–his group of followers were left out. But Jim Jones and others like to take their crowds with them when they commit suicide.
People do not realize how the young and even the not so young can be influenced by a charismatic authority figure. ;Throw in a little religion and some flaming dice and a Greek God and a Papa figure willing to risk their lives by blatant rule breaking and needless recklessness then it becomes a disaster certain to happen.
To point these things out and offer ideas for change is not going to make you popular. But if there is a choice between being unpopular and presenting truth and facts that will save young lives from future disaster, then choose the unpopular side.
WTKTT,
Thanks for bringing the Utah FFs and Mike Dudley’s discussion into the forefront again discussing “ The Rule of 99 “.
Here are two links from “The Military Leader” website that deal with “luck”
( https://www.themilitaryleader.com/luck-be-a-lady/ )
“Why are some people so lucky while others seem to slog along professionally? Where do you draw the line between luck and talent ? What are the limits to luck in a successful career? How do you create your own luck ?” (emphasis added)
“Depend on luck too much, and you’ll find yourself on the hard-luck side of the professional craps table, staring down dice that never seem to roll your way. On the other hand, carefully cultivated luck can do much to keep your career on a winning trajectory. (emphasis added)
( https://www.themilitaryleader.com/proactive-luck/ )
“The Duality of Luck – This highlights both kinds of luck that can affect a career …”traditional” luck and the kind created through personal intervention.
“Traditional luck is the opportunity that occurs because you happen to be at the right place in the right time.
“The other kind of luck – that created by personal intervention – is more achievable…and more dangerous. Unlike traditional luck, “making your own luck” through the deliberate cultivation of meaningful relationships and a planned career path is something anyone can do.
“It may be counterintuitive to focus on others to achieve your own goals…but luck is a human occurrence, and its creation is best achieved through relationships and empowering each other.” (emphasis original)
So much for luck being an integral part of our military is kinda scary because the wildland firefighting world often follows their lead in human factors and leadership.
For one that does not believe in luck, how does that luck thing work anyway? Do you get so many when you’re born and then use them up throughout your life or what?
And then there are the GMHS and their final “rolling the dice” on June 30, 2013.
Before the end of the year is up and I am studying tonight on my FLA stuff for my training-
I do “feel” for the SAIT SAIR and now I am LEARNING it for myself-
THEY did a JOB and in that job it is teaching me right here exactly how they did it-
odd but true, world.
They did the tools it shows in my training here-
I do not understand it but it is the way it is being taught
The SAIT SAIR was a story telling product
we are taught in class NO punitive actions.
Some day I will do my own version of the SAIT SAIR but it has to stay away from the hikers because we are taught witnesses are discouraged and never record an eye witness and never collect or request their statements and that was what happened to us on the SAIT SAIR- we went to them remember so they were JUST DOING what they were TRAINED to do-
Recap what is our job besides and “open mind” and “clean slate” when we arrive at scene to investigate and interview the area:
No punitive actions may result from anything learned in the dialogue session or the FLA process.
Respectful discussion is the rule.
Learning for future events is more important than assessing blame.
Accidents are almost always rare combinations of normal performance variability and chance combinations of unlikely events.
Safety is never absolute.
Safety should be thought of as the reasonableness of risk. It is a feeling about which two very experienced, competent professionals can disagree and both be right.
Remember noone is to be punished!
Oh…and one more thing Joy. You know I was just teasing you about being the kind of student who buttonholes instructors during breaks and at the end of the day…right?
One reason being an instructor is so hard is because most of the people attending the training are dead heads who just sit there like bumps on a log wishing the training was over and never ask questions or get engaged in the process.
Trainees, students and attendees like you are priceless because you want to be there, you want to learn, you get get engaged and ask the questions others would like to ask but are afraid to in case they might look dumb or they can’t take even very limited public speaking even though it makes the classes so much more interesting and the time go by quicker.
So…please keep up the good work, you are on an amazing journey, I have no idea where you are going, but it sounds like you do!
And of course I was using hyperbole to some extent…again, in order to make my point. Because the first criteria that is almost always looked first when finding instructors is to look for those who have the natural ability to be good instructors and know the subject material well.
Most managers and supervisors understand how important training is and everyone tries to put the best people out in front to represent their agency. Nobody wants to put on poor training, but their lack of funding and inability to request and get more funding for training has never been very good and it has gotten much worse as each year goes by.
And I do know the problem is greatly exacerbated by the huge number of low level entry people who need lots of training really quickly. But all of that being said, too much of the WF training is hopelessly outdated and the entire system needs to be overhauled and based on the most current methods of teaching adults and not young people who were trained in the 1950’s and 1960’s like I was and people still are by using the same old tired lesson plans and syllabus’. to a great extent.
The three mist important things to USFS FIRE shouldn’t be;
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
They should be;
1. Modernize
2. Modernize
3. Modernize.
And they won’t want to do it, but the place they need to start is by going to FLETC, those guys love to be asked how they do things and interagency cooperation and interfacing with a variety of programs is how in part they justify the hugely extravagant and enormously gigantic budgets they get to train people compared to the scraps that fall onto the floor from the money tree the WF community gets to train their people with. Just sayin…
And just FYI…the part that Sonny got right years ago was that the wildland firefighting community needs a training center of their own funded and operated at the federal level under the leadership of the NWCG. That is what is needed so there is a central repository for training development, instructors to meet and new training material stored and worked with.
Law enforcement couldn’t do it either without their FLETC facilities that are now in either FLETC east in Glynco County near Brunswick Georgia that was built up over the past many decades beginning with a decommissioned Naval Air Station so they began with hundreds of millions of dollars worth of buildings and infrastructure.
As a matter of fact, during my longest class which was about four months, I stayed in a bedroom that I had to myself in a former Naval Officers house that was actually in a very nice subdivision of officers houses. That old base is huge. They even have enough room to set their own fires in their backcountry on base for the wildland fire investigation course and for the ATF to have room to always be blowing things up with bombs which sometimes starts their wildfires.
The only thing Sonny was wrong about was putting it in Prescott because you really would need a decommissioned military base otherwise the start up costs would be beyond astronomical. It also needs to be located in a central location where it is efficient and relatively cheap to fly in students, instructors, and dignitaries to put on dod and pony shows for so you can get even more money the next you ask for it.
It also needs to be located in the state who has at least one, if not two very powerful Senators. That was how Arizona originality got FLETC West at first Davis Monthan Air Force Base and later at the Pinal Air Park. The reason was named Dennis DeConcini with support from John McCain.
But when DeConcini retired from the Senate during the years FLETC West was being built up, those plans were all cancelled. And that is how FLETC ended up where it is quite arguably the worst place in the nation to put it. But…that reason was named Pete Domenici and it just so happened one of his primary campaign money donators and his friends owned a Christian College that had been going bankrupt for years.
And Pete was the John McCain of New Mexico and Chairman of the Senate Budget Committee, so they scrapped all of the work and money that had already gone into FLETC West in Arizona and they bought a defunct bible college in the crotch of the nation. Artesia, New Mexico. Ti even get to Artesia it’s like being in that movie with John Candy and Steve Martin to even get to the facility, you have to take Planes, Trains and Automobiles at enormous costs to even arrive at crotch of the nation. I would have identified it as the asshole of the nation but I’m trying to clean up my potty mouth.
So…anyway, I’m thinking that as of right now that Kentucky would be a really good place to locate a Federal Wildland Fire Training Center, at least until next year and then you could probably make a good run to out it in Boise where NIFC is located if you can’t find a military base that is going to be decommissioned soon in San Francisco? Or actually, I would start right now by looking in Delaware fir one but hedge your bets by looking near Palm Beach, Florida just in case? I heard Mar-a-Largo would have been the best place in the nation to hold the next G20 Summit. I bet Mar-a-Largo would also be a great place for a FIRE training center, at least to put all of the administrative offices and to house dignitaries from all over the country and the world who fly in for the dog and pony shows?
Congradulations–I know you will be tops in that line of work–and will succeed, the gods be willing and the creek doesn’t rise. Slainte and may the Irish Goddess Anu keep watch over you. There are of course the lizard men to avoid–too many that have shift changing ways.
Tex Gilligan
12:51 PM (0 minutes ago)
to me
You know I do have photos of the UFO’s–last night there were three–Early on, one was already in position, the other came out of Mexico from the Juarez area and was moving west. I am quite certain they are government which means the Feds have already perfected anti-gravity craft. I say that because these are in the atmosphere–perhaps as high as 30-40 thousand ft. but also dip down to the tops of the Florita Range and move at different speeds and times while one positions itself to the South West and usually remains there most of the night. They have technology to switch on and off their colourful strobe lights on and off. In day light they disappear from eyesight and I am certain from radar as well. They are proud of their white, red, yellow, green and blue strobe lights and I notice in their motion from east to west they sometimes turn them off , but once in position seem to usually enjoy showing them off. Not many look up and I think the few that do have to be wise of the technology–but I do wonder what the hell is so interesting about this area that they frequent it so often. It could be the White Sands Proving Ground or perhaps the multitudes in Juarez and El Paso, although the one to the Southwest would be more in position for observing Deming and Palomas, Mexico. So it is not surprising knowing that the black opts projects that have used about a trillion dollars a year in the past decade perfecting technology with more billions since the atom bomb of 1945.
Is it any wonder that some youngster apt with computer games can take out a Qassim Suleimani and crew some 7500 miles distant (distance from White Sands Proving Ground to Baghdad)? There has to be a goodly number of shape shifters in politics some with beady eyes that are hard to conceal–both the male and female varieties.
Anyhow I have gotten some neat photos–and I suppose some of these watchers=Angels if you prefer–are hanging around in these craft. Angels come from the root An and Ana, and meaning Shining Ones. They shape shift just as you can read in the old testament where the donkey spoke to Balaam and nothing new to the Bible no more than the much earlier texts that the Biblical version of the flood myth. (the cuneiform tablets date from about 5700 years ago while the earliest Biblical writings date somewhere around 25-2700 years ago). The pre flood stories of the Kings–Angels who had bred with humans also giants in stature–ruled some 246 thousand years before the flood according to the clay tablets. They had lifespans that compare with the Biblical versions of Methuselah of about 1000 years. All of this came about interesting enough in the Iraqi areas we are so interested in, including that ancient city of Babylon that Saddam was restoring. It is now a US military restricted base–what knowledge and antiquities are our Military and their scientist seeking there? The stories from the clay tablets that pre date the Bible by milinea talk of the Alien Gods An, Ana, Enki and Endu or Inanna, Utu, Enki, and Isimud[1]under various names as leaders of the ten great gods of the Mesopotamian antedeluvian era. Much of the clay table stories are very similar to the later Biblical stories. It is a very intersting study to see how the stories were handed down, yet many of them were actually written during the time after the flood in the Euphrates district with Kish being the beginning and Nimrod who taught mankind how to war as part of the rulership.
It is interesting that in Cameroon scientists have traced some rare cases of DNA back to men that lived some 346,000 years ago. Kind of throws a pipe wrench in the works of the revered theory of evolution but it is well known that plants and animals do adapt and evolve to certain degrees. Much of archaeology is lost in that there is plenty of evidence of early Giants–even the Biblical stories of Giant tribes that made the Hebrews look like grasshoppers. There have been so many anomalies that science overlooks and posts them that way if they did not support evolution but science is now beginning to perhaps give us another story as to how man was created and these days how like Inanna did, screw around with DNA to create an intelligent human–enough so that they could do the dirty work for the gods. In the stories of the clay tablets pre-dating the Bible, men were needed to replace the gods who were tired of gold mining. So we were origionally mostly miners and in my case still am programmed to be a slave to the gods for my keep as a miner. Of course we get paid fairly well–some better than the poor fellow putting out wild fires.
And yes there are stories of technology of the gods in the Bible–the UFO grabbing up Enoch in the book of Isaih and of course the stories of the radioactive box that made manna for the treks of the Israelites. You damn sure would come down with radiation sickness as described in the Bible if you did not know how to mess with the thing. So the aliens had technology that people of the time could not understand. And as you saw when the white Spaniard gods invaded the Mexican Indians, devastation can be tough on the ignorant. Likewise at their whim the gods –well An the boss god wiped out mankind although Enki had a heart and saved a few to replenish the earth. Shit these aliens have had 14+ billion years to perfect their technology, while the earth has been around only 4.5 billion years. So just as Stephen Hawking said–you ought not be inviting the aliens in considering how the Indians fared against the white man. Yes, I would have to agree considering the texts and how the ancient gods created and then handled man kind. Jesus sounds fine to me–but even he said he would return in a different form–the book of Revelation gives another harrowing end to mankind with a few (144,00 raptured or saved) and the rest suffering death and torture that looks like Isis in high gear–and of course the burning mentioned there–similar to what is going on right now but in a massive scale.
For certain things go in a cycle and now that the earth is being degraded by overpopulation and world leaders such as Trump , the Korean friend, and the Chinese system having no respect for the environment we may be back to the gods of old showing up and doing what they are excellent at–population reduction.
Anyway, don’t do away with your cross–the ancients liked them and the Swastika is a revered version by some as well. Certain Indian tribes like it as well only with the wheel in the opposite direction in some instances. It is even above some Catholic Churches–but you can research where–one that Hitler attended–and he did say he was Catholic forever. In what way–Catholic does not necessarily mean the Pope’s way–a good word in the dictionary–some are catholic but do not understand it.
My opinions and musings. Do your own thing–this is America, not Shariah.
That was meant for Joy and her fire fighting investigative journey. Education is a freeing thing but the box type can also be a form of enslavement. You have to be on guard that you do not allow your free thinking to be limited–of course Joy’s never will.
But it is amazing how limited our minds are and how prone we are to conform–Some famous yahoo can start a fad and I suppose people’s admiration of the celebrity causes them to duly fall in line.
I was thinking of the many men that walk around these days half shaven–I think because they watched America has Talent. But the big one now when I walk around Cruces or turn on the musicals in Mexico are what I call the cock roach boots that men are wearing. Shoes are elongated too–Freud would say say it is a man’s subconscious complex to wish for a longer penis. I call it a better instrument to kill cock roaches in the corner–the regular variety of pointed boots is enough for me–and fortunately I don’t have cock roaches to kill in my trailer–but if I did they would do the job without the elongation.
Well the regular boots are long enough to keep you hooked to a bar stool so you don’t fall backwards. But can you imagine trying to get unhooked from a stirrup in those things.
Ha, I was sitting next to a Mexican in Las Cruces waiting for my pooch to have her stitches removed after the spaying and he had a brand new pair on–with a long foot already, the extension was extreme. I wondered if he thought the ladies were admiring them–his wife on the other side did not look too happy–maybe the cost of the extra leather had her depressed. Something had her unhappy, maybe not the boots–but it was a thought.
His did not have metal boot caps like many Mexicans decorate their boots with. They consider them as weapons and some even sharpen them for effect. But then it would take a new variety of boot cap to use on those points–extremely narrow. So Clown Shoes and Cock Roach Boots–to each his own and at least it give some old codgers a smile and a psychologist a reason to muse.
Happy trails but careful if you wear those elongated trippers.
To clarify (you can get the cock roach in corners with the sharp points) but not good fire fighter or miner boots–and dancing? you will have your toes stepped on more than you would like.
Life is fun to watch–better to live and let live.
Joy, I wondered how Dr. Greer had gotten testimony from so many influential people, including Astronauts, Military Brass, CIA and FBI individuals, etc. These people take an oath to maintain secrecy and disclose nothing at the peril of being sued, blackballed, and threatened. One thing he was able to get council with some powerful figures, including briefing Presidents, the Rockefeller clan, and even the UN on the issue of secrecy and cover up of the UFO phenomenon–as you could see when Stanton Friedman finally got information after 8 years from what the CIA had on UFO’s it was all blacked out but about 10%. They still maintain their secrecy but individuals that worked there or other people in the Military could testify after Dr. Greer mailed a certified letter to the President, CIA, FBI and others identifying the illegality of such oath and declaring it null and void. This stuff of UFO’s had been so compartmentalized with above 38 secret classification to get to the information, even the President could not access it. Clinton was having to go to Dr. Greer for briefing since Greer had been able to extract so many testimonies and knew more than even Clinton knew–yet Clinton wanted to know–and did not want to wind up like Kennedy for pushing the CIA in any manner. Remember Lyndon B Johnson, another Texan like the Bush family was a CIA Director, Justice Dept., Pentagon–as father Bush had been. If you read people, look at an old speech of Kennedy with Johnson behind–if looks can kill there was one.
So I am trying to relate this to what you do getting testimony and how it might apply to be something you can use. Greer had an attorney to help draft what is called a UNOD (Unless Otherwise Directed) letter sent with return receipt. If you can get a copy out of the Library of Unacknowledged it is on pages 250-262.
People are afraid to testify, and this should give you some idea of a method to use to get illegal acts–such as the mum orders circumvented, made null and void so that people do not have to concern themselves with the BS of a FS making people sign a contract to keep their job by not being allowed to express their knowledge to the public. Greer was able to free up testimonies that would have been lost since many of the people that had information about NASA, UFO and Alien contacts and the such were much like myself–in the older age class and with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel with the Priest on your shoulder having the last rites on his mind.
I bought a copy off Amazon if you can not get one at the library. We need to break up some of the garbage ways that some are using to illegally keep people afraid and away from their American first amendment right to free speech. What they know should be allowed to be spoken–and just as the many Military people of high rank wanted to talk about Roswell were yet afraid because of an illegal oath. The cold war is officially over, but does not even apply to FS action–which absolutely is a breach of the first amendment since it has no bearing on National Security.
Let me know–if you can’t find a copy then I will gladly order one from Amazon to your address. This Greer fellow has done some marvelous things and some of the methods he had to use were similar to what you have had to endure. As you can imagine he endured plenty of resistance and even life threats for exposing information certain compartments of government resented, but those legal letters opened up some doors to his investigations.
My dogs have not returned in 2 days–they were able to dig under and all got out while I was asleep–had been ill for a couple days. I fear the rancher and crew might have got to them. There are no cattle in here now but ranchers are that way–and it is the law in New Mexico. Well I could never kill another man’s dog even if I had cattle and he has none in this desert now–they take them out when the grass is scarce. If his dogs show up here or even his Bull that broke down my gate, they will be safe. I let Karma take care of people unless they themselves were to be a direct threat to fear my life. Those dogs were my pals, and I was training Whitey to be my service pal. But there are humans in this world that are overtaken by a hard heart. You can only pray for them and those that smile at you but are a wolf in sheep’s clothes.
And Joy–direct some of that good psychic healing power my way with some good thoughts to cheer my sadness. Thanks. Sonny.
Whitey is not there?
Really?
Prayers your way
Your prayers worked–Whitey showed up after two days. I had thought likely the rancher had killed them all. The other three have not–maybe Whitey had somehow escaped whatever happened–the two big huskies and Scooter did not apparently. Their runs have never lasted beyond 12 hours and I figured they had been shot since Scooter had been limping after he had returned home about a week ago with a 22 bullet that went through his right shoulder. There is nothing back of my place but desert for 100 miles and only one ranch some 20 miles south, and the one about 3 miles to the SW of me. That is the Allen Ranch house–I met the guy out in the desert with his wife. I told him about his bull breaking my fence and ruining a cherry tree. He said he knew it was in my 4 acres for a few days–I told him I did not run the bull out–he was being used as a lawn mower to pay for that tree.
He told me he had moved the bull-to another part of the pasture–that and another bull were all he had in here and the dogs did not pay the bull any mind being here and the bull ignored them as well.
He has since even moved the bulls out–so that desert is vacant but they do check their windmills and mostly south of me along the rail road is a dirt road that the Border Patrol uses pretty regular but they carry government issues, not 22 rifles. They had surveilled me and stopped me twice in that area when I was rabbit hunting and gathering some mesquite bulldozed along the trail.
I think they look to catch coyotes and dope runners that want to use the back roads. So it is a mystery, yet I am much relieved to have Whitey back. She has grown from what I though would be a small dog when I got her at 6 months to a full grown German Shephard. Her temperment is good and not a mean dog–this pit is 2 years old and Whitey does not want to engage–I have scolded the pit for trying to bite Whitey. But the pit just gotten today acts like she has known me all her life. Maybe the escape from a place that had 6 dogs running around has made her happy.
I have checked the fence and can not find how they got through. Another mystery–but I was ill for a couple days not able to keep a good eye out.
This is life on the desert–It can get interesting.
DownhillnDirect left a very good post–gives us much more light on why the men are dead. Joy remembers my saying the men looked like they were on their death march–not happy and worn down. Those later photos a couple are smiling–you know they had believed the day was over and they were going home. It was sad.
When we hiked with Ted, he immediately picked up where they cut line off the two track. I followed him down about 100 yards where it ended. That area was steep and rocky but not a bunch of brush–so I don’t think it took them long–don’t know how quick 16 men can cut line in that area for 100 yards. But from where Joy and I were we soon observed them back on the two track resting.
Ted was wondering why they stopped where they did. I told him about how the brush was so thick once you passed over a bouldery area and on around the mountain side. It was there the fire also had worked down the mountain and gotten into the thick manzanita in the lower fringes of the mountains.
Donut was in a deadly position–no escape route, although he believed the grader would have saved him. That grader had the tires burned off and the steel floor plate turned blue from heat. Joy likely still has a photo of an old carnation cream can that had the lead melted out of the center and run down like a tear drop. I remember those as a kid when they would use lead to seal the center after filling with evaporated milk.
So yes, when I passed I did say they look like they were on their death march–Joy tugged at me to be quiet–my hearing is bad so I whisper like some talk. You could see they were depleted, unhappy hot and tired. So Downhillndirect tells it like it was. He adds more light with every post. It is appreciated.
Joy said,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxix-here/#comment-481709
I know I have used some comparisons to the military to try and convey what is was like to be part of a hotshot crew, especially a hotshot crew under Bill Buck’s leadership in the 1970’s on the Coconino National Forest. But those comparisons were just used to give you some idea of what is was like because it was similar in some aspects. But there are many other cultures in our broader society that also share similarities such as college fraternities, professional sports teams, organized street gangs and close friends on a really long road trip.
But that being said, we were no more a military culture than the military is a wildland firefighting hotshot culture. Hotshots have developed their own unique culture over the past 70 years, just as the overall wildland firefighting culture has developed their own unique culture over more than 100 years now.
And I have always thought it was part of my role here on the thread to help program HAL 9000 in order to assist him to input the data that was available on the GMIHC and the circumstances surrounding their deaths in order to achieve more accurate output and logical conclusions while trying to make some sense of their decision making process and actions the day they were killed.
As a side benefit to me, I am using the same process to help me work through the same process while I try to figure out as a accurately as possible who we were in order to convey that same information that I hope will help explain who and what we were and who and what the overall hotshot culture is today in the book I am working on, Because frankly, even though each crew has individually developed their own unique culture under the overall umbrella hotshot culture, I don’t think 🤔 very much if anything has changed.
And that’s a good thing in my mind because in spite of four (4) significant disasters involving hotshot crews that have been repeatedly discussed on this thread over the years, there could have been many times number that considering the inherently dangerous and fluid environment hotshots normally operate in.
So overall, I think the program works very well, but there is always room for improvement especially when you consider that 34 out of a total of 43 hotshot deaths from being burned to death on those four (4) disaster fires can be directly linked to a single primary cause and that is hotshot crew boss hubris in addition to criminal stupidity. And all of those deaths occurred under nearly identical circumstances in every comparison I can possibly think of.
Which is a place none of us was at more than six (6) years ago because of the false and fraudulent investigative reports that were generated in order to cover up the true cause of all of those deaths. So when you look at it through that prism, it is quite shocking to me to come to terms with the fact that if hotshot crew boss hubris and criminal stupidly was removed from the equation, there would have only been nine (9) hotshot deaths in about 70 years of hotshot crew history, And those were directly caused by Death From Above….Fire Overhead.
Oh…and one more thing. I think every hotshot crew shares some unique similarities with specific groups within our overall society. For example, in the case of the Happy Jack Hotshots, there were some similarities to an Indian War Party and in the case of the GMIHC, a Fundamentalist Christian Revival Tour.
And that is something that I find very disturbing under our Constitution, system of government (Democratic Republic) and federal laws. And I still wonder given some Darrell Willis’ post disaster comments and attitude in addition to specific incidents in the crew’s history that have come to light on this thread if that commonality isn’t at least partly responsible for their deaths?
And I guess my clarification above understates the many similarities between the hotshot and military cultures. But the point I’m trying to make is that the hotshot culture I knew wasn’t a military culture, it was a wildland firefighting hotshot culture.
And in reality, I think the overall wildland firefighting culture has more similarities than specifically the hotshot culture does simply because fighting wildland fires lends itself to the military fighting a battle in so many ways.
And in fact, the ways are so many, I’m not going to try to name them here but if you are either in the business yourself or are a regular reader or participant on this thread, you know about all of the similarities as well as I do. And sadly enough, in some people minds I have come to understand that even includes “expectants.”
Expectant – A casualty who is expected to pass away.
https://www.military.com/join-armed-forces/military-terms-and-jargon.html
And I’m sure I have mentioned this point before, but back in my day, the term “wildland fires” didn’t even exist or at least it wasn’t in common use and I don’t remember ever hearing it or using it myself. Every fire was a “forest fire”, even those burning on a National Grassland, in BLM sagebrush or Southern California chaparral on the edge of, or even in a city. To us…it was a forest fire burning down the town.
I think it’s a good thing someone came up with that nomenclature, because using the term forest fire for every wildland fire didn’t make much sense even back then. But it does show you just how dominant the U.S. Forest Service was in that culture because USFS firefighters were used like mercenaries to fight everyone else’s fires. And essentially no one else fought our fires, mostly because no one else employed very many firefighters and some employed none at all, especially hotshot crews.
Clarification, I should have “causalities “ in general and specifically “expectants.”
While at the same time, I think military veterans, especially combat veterans, usually play an oversized role on every hotshot crew simply because they are normally older, more mature, experienced and “worldly.” I think that was certainly the case on the GMIHC with Marine Veteran Jesse Steed and probably Travis Turbyfill and Bill Warneke as well, although I have less information about their role on the crew.
Based on my experience, military veterans can either be a huge asset to a hotshot crew or a huge pain-in-the-ass, sometimes at the same time. But in general, I would have to say military veterans are a huge asset to any crew lucky enough to have some.
I do know that besides my two crew bosses who I have frequently mentioned on this thread, the most influential hotshot before I was a crew boss was Mike Curry, who ended up as a Captain the last time I heard about him on the Flagstaff Fire Department. This of course was after he was released by the Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Tehran where he was working as an A&P mechanic for Bell Helicopters to help keep the Shah’s gunships flying.
Mike is the one who lost his Foosball Table to the Iranian Revolution and had been a Crew Chief and door gunner on a Iroquois (Huey) Gunship in Vietnam. I wanted to be like Mike, but I never made it. I gave it a good run, but I failed in the final analysis. But then again…Mike was the only Mike I ever knew…bad to the bone and a great guy at the same time.
Although I did have a Marine Recon Veteran on the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew who was just a pain-in-ass and did me a favor of quitting before I had to take proactive steps to separate him from the crew one way or the other.
His final act of defiance was to lie about being sick while attending the famous yearly annual Telluride Bluegrass Festival and missing a fire in the process. Everyone including him knew that was going to be a deal breaker for me because without at least 18 on the roster, hotshot crews aren’t eligible for off-forest assignments and everybody loses money. Which needless to say, is the worst faux pas a hotshot can make.
Of course that particular act is so outrageous by hotshot crew ethos, it was the kind of thing the crew policed themselves. Which was exactly why I heard all about it while he was still at the festival because like I have said before, in general hotshots do the job for the love of the experience.
But hotshots also do the job for the love of overtime, hazard pay, night differential, and the per diem they don’t keep to pay for sack lunches, fire camp meals, meals missed and rats. Both he and the crew knew he was already gone and everyone expected me to separate him immediately upon his return to the crew and so he never did.
Oh…and one more thing. The deal was, no one ever called in sick unless they were incapacitated in the hospital. If someone was sick, we had lots of “light duty” work for them to do. We were even willing to carry them onto the airplane on a stretcher just as long as we could add their name to the flight manifest. Kinda like that movie “Weekend At Bernie’s” even though I never actually watched that movie.
Gary–I couldn’t help but thinking about you and your intelligence activities when I started reading UNACKNOWLEDGED by Stephen M. Greer, MD. I was thinking I bet Gary knows some of these people and may have even worked with some. I did not know how many people knew about Black Ops programs and even worked on them and how much really is withheld from public view.
It is quite the myth that secrets can be withheld from public view, although sometimes they are held in full public view. The public is easily blinded by the psychological methods and authority figures. You do not need a good mystery story–just start surveilling our government.
I was intrigued since Dr. Greer is a trauma doctor and my son Mark a RN in trauma for over a decade–had been talking about going on to become a doctor in that line. He might give it up if I show him Dr. Greer’s book since Mark thinks all UFO believer are kooks.
Well I wish Charley Mosley (not sure whether spelled ey or ie) the ex-smoke Jumper and CIA agent were still alive. I would be putting some pretty pointed questions to him.
Joy and I spent some quality time with him. He could not make the hike when with the other smoke jumpers due to his heart condition. But he said to us that we were doing the right thing. He did warn us though that it could be a dangerous thing to do and if anyone would know it would have been Charley. He had invited us to Arkansas where he lived and now I regret not visiting–He died not long after he made the trip to Yarnell. There was much lost by his passing.
I see Gary’s work like that. These things learned in life while on the battlefields such as fire fighting and investigations of crimes are hard earned and deserve to be preserved for posterity. Some things can only be known through their experiences.
“You will not rise to the occasion. You will fall to your level of training.”
Thanks, I really like this quote because it ties in perfectly with what I have been writing for years and I sincerely believe. And that is during times of extreme stress, we revert to our training and that is why getting the best training is so important and is the foundational bedrock of everything we do well as a species.
Happy New Year JD
Tried posting
Gary
The steel case 🐺 wolf brand 6.5 Grendel is only 250 for 1000 rounds
And Who needs stores …right Sonny😁
This cell has new emoticons
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