Chapter I, Chapter II, Chapter II supplement, Chapter III, Chapter IV, Chapter V, Chapter VI, Chapter VII, Chapter VIII , Chapter IX, Chapter X, Chapter XI, Chapter XII , Chapter XIII, Chapter XIV, Chapter XV, Chapter XVI, Chapter XVII, Chapter XVIII, Chapter XIX, Chapter XX, Chapter XXI, Chapter XXII, Chapter XXIII, Chapter XXIV, Chapter XXV and Chapter XXVI.
© Copyright 2019 John Dougherty, All rights Reserved. Written For: Investigative MEDIA
Oh…and one more thing Harold, since you are new here and you aren’t up to speed on all of my idiosyncrasies, my comment that most of my guns would get me long prison sentences…very long ones in your country wasn’t a slam on Canada.
If I would have been “God For a Day” on December 14, 2012, I would have made every gun and gun accessory in this nation disappear in an instant. And then I would have allowed people to start buying guns the next day based on Canada’s common sense gun laws.
It is absolutely INSANE that I can legally own the type guns and accessories that I do,…absolutely fucking INSANE. And nobody can convince me otherwise because I have handled, owned, and shot all kinds of guns since a very early age.
In fact, since my mother was raised in the Wild, Wild Old West, I handled, owned, and shot all kinds of guns at an age I had absolutely no business handling, owning and shooting those guns at that age with the level of training I had, which was nonexistent.
I know what kind of guns me and everybody else needs for every reason you can think of from putting down a Zombie Apocalypse, Alien Invasion or another four years of President Aberration. And I would not need most of the guns I own to do any of that. I just like guns because I am a GUN NUT! But just because I am a GUN NUT, doesn’t mean I should be able to own most of the guns I do. Did I mention it is INSANE?
Okay…I put myself on a well deserved “time out” yesterday because I was operating with even fewer filters than I normally do, and apparently I still am. So….I am going back on my “time out”, so that you and Bill, whoever the fuck Bill is (in every jest there is a little truth) can get some of the oxygen I normally hog on this thread and maybe we can finally get some new fucking ideas while we are waiting for Joy to shit or get off the pot?!!!!
But…if she is waiting for Holly or Alan to help us…WE ARE OFFICIALLY FUCKED!
Reply to Harold post on June 26, 2019 at 11:34 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I don’t know all the acronyms. What does GTS stand for?
GTS stands for “Google That Shit”.
Most religion is about control of the masses–a few do the research and see the situation. Fifty two scholars got around to the King James Version that he had commanded–translated Hebrew and Greek writing–66 books of the Old and New Testament, threw out some books they figured to be fables and gave you what they believed to be the word of God. It has been re translated and revised and people continue to argue over the Greek and ancient languages and what they mean and whether the thing was properly translated. In the Catholic Bible there are 73 recognized books and some organizations have up to 80.
It will save you much time to know that you are in good form if you know right from wrong and do your best to walk the straight and narrow. There are no set proofs of anything but I like the idea of Confession and go on with life in the straight and narrow or spend a hell of a lot of time in the confession booth. It is not a sin to have yourself a Guinness in the process.
Otherwise Karma will take its course and there is always a possibility of a visit from the Leprechaun.
But the thing I was interested in is a legal matter–something God doesn’t give a shit about since much of it is gobbledygook. Maybe Gary or WTKTT would know, if a person has knowledge of criminal activity and withholds that information from the authorities, is that a criminal offense? If so there are a bunch of those hanging around.
what happened at your confession that one time when the priest said “ok” – ….what was it…that was funny, Charlie.
Guess I should add that but not funny–I was down in Viejo Casas Grandes, Chih. getting married in an old Catholic Church that still had the bullet pock marks from the Pancho Villa days in the adobe outside Everyone wore sombreros except me, but part of the ceremony to mention requires first a confession. Att that time I did not speak much Spanish and that Priest did not understand English–anyhow I kept on with my sins for some time until he reached his had around the curtain and said esta bien no mas por favor. I got that and shut up.
That’s an excellent question in that last paragraph, Charlie. I’d like to know the answer to that one too! I think they call that being an accessory to a crime…
It might be deemed accessory after the fact…or it might be obstruction of justice, I hope someone else weighs in. I don’t know American law.
Oh…and one more thing Harold. If you ask any lawyer that question, they would answer it like every lawyer answers every question…it depends.
But in general…and for our purposes here and based on what your question is probably based on…the answer is…NO!
Now…really quickly, because my filters still aren’t working…filters, what fucking filters? There are some people and some circumstances where the answer to that question would be…YES.
But in general, those situations have to do child endangerment, sexual abuse or exploitation, suicide or eminent grave bodily injury or death to someone and the duty to inform generally lies with people who are licensed professionals, such as doctors, nurses, therapists, psychiatrists, psychologists, and Officers Of The Court, which includes every lawyer that has passed the bar and holds a law license.
But for Tom, Dick, Harry and Sally, pertaining to crimes X, Y, and Z…no.
Disclaimer; I am not, nor have I ever been a lawyer, nor did I stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night or any other night since I retired in 2006. Nor have I ever even played any kind of lawyer or other legal professional on TV or in the movies…so don’t quote me on that.
Whoops…just one more because I just saw this and I asked you yesterday if you had seen the photo of the 2 year old who had drowned in the Rio Grande because President Aberration ordered the CBP to violate U.S. Law.
I don’t know all U.S. laws…but I know those, and President Aberration ordered government officials to break them. It was CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE! DEAL WITH IT!
So…just in case you haven’t seen it. Here is a drawing of that photo.
WARNING…THIS DRAWING REFLECTS THE TRUTH, WHICH MANY PEOPLE JUST CAN’T HANDLE!
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/canadian-artist-fired-after-viral-trump-cartoon-n1025071
https://mobile.twitter.com/deAdder/status/1143931384265883650?
Yes Gary, I did see the ACTUAL footage of the father and child on Canadian news. (But not the cartoon).
That is just heartbreaking. I just don’t have the words…
Harold, American law is back to the old West ways–Judge Roy Bean where the cowboy that killed the Chinaman was let off because Judge Roy could not find in his books where it was against the law to kill a Chinaman. However upon searching the body of the Chinaman a $20 gold piece was found whereupon Judge Roy Bean fined the Chinaman $20 for littering the street.
There is a U Tube take on a Canadian Girl that wound up in jail because of greed involving the legal system. Because of the Judge Roy Bean justice system came under fire from a bunch of Canadians and I hope a number of Americans, the girl was refunded her fine, although I heard no apologies.
However, the overshoot of authority has turned back on the system and people are demanding a change. But it is taking the masses to do the job and it truly is not only blacks that have been abused, it is the general population as well. But I understand that Canada is having its problems as well.
Policing is supposed to protect first amendment rights of freedom of speech, religion, and media. and even the fourth amendment of unlawful search and seizures. The Bush clan got rid of all those rights by instilling the Patriot Act under the pretense of terrorism.
Now as I was told by a Border Patrol that had pulled me over with his bubble gum machine, “We can stop you for any reason we want and search if we want”. The two of them did a cursory look into my truck except I had two big Huskies and a bull dog that would have killed their German Shephard had they opened the door. Of course they would have opened fire on my dogs and maybe me too.
I did call their supervisor and was told they try to lay off locals. But it goes to show that authority can go to jack boot Nazi intentions pretty quickly–few men can handle authority properly in a free society–well what was a free society.
The Covid thing is a farce to a big degree–It robbed the country and put it in an economic bind–I see the markets are dropping fast and 45.5 million people are on unemployment–plenty of businesses are closing out permanently and only restaurants are coming back–Well you might get a job flipping burgers–but manufacturing jobs are down the drain.
It is known that if you have had a flu shot you will test positive for the Covid thing. And Fauci and others are trying to get it required for everyone to have a test. So many false positives and they are using fear to put people under hose arrest. Some dumb ass is presenting HR6666 which will require home visits to see if you have a cough or fever so you will be quarantined. So this is going a bit too far, yet one has to wonder what the real purpose of this shenanigan is.
The next one is the gain of function virus created by a Harvard –here is a science article:
CDC researchers and their colleagues successfully reconstructed the influenza virus that caused the 1918-19 flu pandemic, which killed as many as 50 million people worldwide. A report of their work, “Characterization of the Reconstructed 1918 Spanish Influenza Pandemic Virusexternal icon,” was published in the October 7, 2005 issue of Science.
So this virulent Spanish Flu was created also with gain of function for military purposes–insertion of bits of HIV DNA just as the Covid 19 was improved by taking the SARS virus that killed so many. SARS was not so virulent so gain of function was accomplished by a Chinese doctor in 2015 under approval of Fauchi at our own level 3 lab in Chapil Hill, NC. He allowed it even though it was illegal to do at the time. So our federal monies and grants from China financed the doctor and after success she returned to Wuhan, China and was working there when this outbreak happened. These are facts–Dr. Buttar and many other Doctors have verified this, it is written in Medical Journals for her success, and yet you hear nothing about it on our false Media.
So who is to blame for the gain of function Covid 19? I would call Fauchi a greater killer than Marsh, but apparently the military and others were expecting the gain of function.
The next thing was that revival of the Spanish Flu–why on earth would you want to dig up a frozen cadaver and re create something and even give it gain of function, that had killed millions–not just of the elderly but all the working classes from teenagers to the elderly. (The elderly mostly were not affected with Spanish Flu.)
I have to believe there are unseen forces promoting such insane and insidious acts.
I wonder how serious these scientists and world elite are about the need to reduce populations since they believe by 2030 if it does not happen a threshold will happen where the world will become uninhabitable for human life.
I do know one thing, I agree with Robert Kennedy Jr. –vaccines are dangerous and they use toxic ingredients. He just won a lawsuit against the government–no vaccine for thirty years has ever been tested before being used. And why should they when you can not sue the vaccine manufacturers and providers. You can only sue the government–and you wonder why you have 1000 times as many autistic kids in recent years since vaccines are now required even for new born babies? But Gates and Fauchi and World Health Organization are hell bent on vaccinating the world–and you can get your free flu shot–a good promotion and then you can test positive for Covid 19.
Gates also agrees that there needs to be something done about overpopulation–why he promoted methods to sterilize people in Africa and India. Maybe his vaccines will help with the population problem as well.
5 -G is another thing that might help as well–but I think it is more like Uranium mining where radiation generally takes ten years or more to start affecting you–my own cancers have started evolving after ten years–the rest of my family has no cancers. But 5-G can be turned up, where Uranium Mining had hot spots but not where it could be made to burn your skin as the Police and Army have used to disperse crowds. The range of 5-G includes up to 300GHZ so the 93GHZ used to disperse crowds is quite feasible, but there are all kinds of other effects as well–by mixing frequencies the 5-G operators could have you hearing voices, being depressed or confused as they did in Iraq.
So the world is getting interesting–and you hope that Big Brother stays on the gentle side–we do not want to anger the Giant with a murderous attitude.
So my Dad, Henry Gilligan, was a World War 1 veteran–in fact a machine gunner that laid in the trenches and mud–He told me that the most important thing was your sleeping board–if someone stole it, you slept directly in the mud–He said it rained all the time he served.
But his description of the weeks on ship going over to fight the Germans will never leave my memory. On that ship, he said he helped stack bodies like cord wood there were so many deaths of young soldiers from the Spanish Flu. I think because of his very young age, he did not get it–that and the Captain warned him not to get a shot–the Captain has said he observed that people getting a shot were dead within three days. The Captain believed the German descendant doctors were working for the German side But the Spanish flue involved mostly people in the age bracket of 20 to 40 years of age–my Dad was 15 and had to state he was 17 when he enlisted. Those days they needed bodies–and as I was told when drafted–take care of the equipment–we can get another asshole, but equipment is hard to come by.
So who knows what the new Spanish Flu virus gain of function will affect if it gets loose. Maybe the scientists that recreated it with HIV DNA fragments and spicing techniques to give it more potency could tell us–but fake media is not about to make an issue of it ===they have everyone scared enough with their Covid 19 reports.
I say do not worry too much, one of the Gods is bound to fuck up the best laid plans, although it is known that the Old Testament God turned out genocidal in a few instances and even got rid of the whole of mankind with a hell of a flood. And some say where men used to live 1000 years or more, that even was cut short to about a century.
Those that have had near death experiences say it is not so bad–I had a couple, one was good but the second one was going down a tunnel–but once I got there, I think it only took a few seconds–then the revival was painful as all get out. The tube about the diameter of a magic marker that must be inserted into the lung between the ribs to keep it inflated was even more painful the 12 guage shot gun hole in my back–and I do still feel that shattered clavicle and those shot scattered about my rig cage. Yet I can tell you this life I live is fine and I am enjoying a nice lightening storm right now after doing yard work all morning.
One thing is certain–life is finite-mostly a fast illusion caused by perceptions–It is good to get beyond the perceptions–mostly the BS we are fed from religion, so called experts and authorities, and parents that were fooled by their parents and so on down the line. There are some truth Sayers but in the final it comes to the one we see in the mirror–don’t look for truth in Politics or Religion.
As always–my own ideas and opinion–perceptions as well.
sláinte pronounced SLAHN-chə–(Good Health)–I added the Irish pronunciation because the Queen would fuck up the Irish word as it is written.
Woodsman,
How about finishing my train of thought, ey.
So then, the supposition was that the other HS Crew down below lit off the drainage below them because – like the YH Fire and the GMHS in the black – they thought these guys were in the black
RTS,
If you’re referring to the parallels between the Loop & Yarnell Hill, then yes. They both had adjoining forces constructing firelines with dozers below their position. A common tactic being a dozer push to burn off of. Adjoining forces were under the belief the crews above were in a safe location but in both fires, the crews ending hiking into the drainage the burnout would traverse to their actual respective locations, killing them…with unintentional “friendly fire.”
The Loop fire chain of events came to me in my research just last week! See my post below.
Mann Gulch – friendly fire. Thanks to Ted Putnam.
Each instance employed tactics of a cover-up by the powers that be in the official reports after the fact. That’s why we have to spend all of this time and energy fleshing out the truth. Our job (self-appointed) is the determine the whole truth in order to save lives.
Woodsman,
Read my post link below to your “friendly fire” question
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479502 )
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/#comment-479512u
A new chapter
It’s time I join the conversation.. I hope I can help
Welcome, Downhillndirect. How do you think you can help the effort for truth? Thanks for coming here.
DHND,
I know for a fact that you can help Brother. Welcome
Reply to Downhillndirect post on June 28, 2019 at 9:32 pm
>> Downhillndirect said…
>>
>> It’s time I join the conversation.. I hope I can help
Welcome!
Don’t be afraid to just ‘jump in’ anywhere if you have something to ask or say… even if a top level comment wasn’t directed at you.
This isn’t a ‘social media’ site with ‘isolated threads’ and we are all known to ‘jump in’ just about anywhere, at any time.
Please NOTE, however, that you arrived at moment when the current CHAPTER of comments is ENDING… and a NEW CHAPTER has just been started.
This current CHAPTER XVII ( 27 ) filled up pretty fast because a lot of new evidence came to light in the last few weeks.
That happens.
As Joy Collura just pointed out above… the new Chapter XVIII ( Chapter 28 ) is HERE…
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-chapter-xxviii-here/
Welcome Downhillndirect, everyone here is very supportive and helpful.
Harold,
You stated “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.”
What was / were the thing(s), factor(s), whatever, that convinced you there was a cover-up by the SAIT after reading the SAIR?
Hi Robert, I will get back to you as soon as I can, it’s 3:00 am here and I’m exhausted. I want to respond properly, so I’ll try later.
gary said:
Gary Olson says
JUNE 28, 2019 AT 5:23 PM
Oh, and FYI Harold…Joy is ALWAYS on the verge of doing something BIG!
So…don’t hold your breath until she does because you know…you will die
my reply-
maybe that is HOW you got in the spot you are in from holding your breath all those times…
Part of the BIG announcement does require Holly and Alan to speak up too-
so hopefully they know I do know their areas of that day thanks to other FFs…but only fair they join in–
Holly? Oh fuck me…we are done for.And Alan, he is just about the biggest bitch in this story…isn’t he? What did I miss?
Tenacity-
I just lack tenacity or umph this week-
I had someone else do the post for what i wanted to do for this week.
I am relying on another to help me carry the torch
They only did 1 and 2 of the 3 posts-
I will read hem soon- bed time for me.
Been sleeping a lot this week.
Pain scale is a bit much- so sleep helps not to feel it.
I just need to r and r- but I did state I would type before I went to sleep on this recent fire and as well another “leak” on the YHFire-
I mean Troy Steinbrink is going to be addressed in D.C. with what I have – I not only tried to direct fact check with him but Sara L Sullivan sent me a third party form and so I got to directly reach out to him to ask him to sign their legal documents.
I will also be showing Alan Sinclair’s photo from then…maybe they can help me understand why he was where he was…BECAUSE it is not yet found on John MacLean’s site but maybe it will be shown in their upcoming book(s)…I say books because it looks like the way they fight fires nowadays we can start a series…
Thank you for all the WF/FFs accounts anonymous – you are the best. It’s all coming to a wrap the next few days then the next few weeks….as for the ones I have been here always and you could have been anonymous too but you followed a different path – there is still time if you want your name out just direct reach me and we can figure a way even for Troy- there is still some time left – so what your name is here – I can still work your account in anonymous –
No more monsters munching off our tax dollars like they have been doing.
No more accepting the risk for you to own as they walk away and let you fall-
No more falsifying time cards
No more pencil pushing people to the top-
June is NOT the month to be doing perverted resource benefit fires in Arizona especially on the Tonto- Remember the Juniper Fire and Yarnell 2016 fire—
Historically it is the DEATH month-
Very disheartening to watch and I feel bad for the ones who knows Fire Fighter Safety – and are caught in the web they weaved- on this joke of a fire burning up Saguaros—
that whole area where they were that day is already leaked out so hopefully now Troy will just do the right thing and share here his account and fire photos and videos.
I hope he does not keep on the family tradition of omissions. I hope he takes the high ground vs the low ground of quicksand.
Now as for Woodsman and him asking RTS on the recent fire- TALK TO ME, my friend…I am the savvy firecracker who is going to talk real on that fire….The Big Sky Does Not Lie—
They can lie about their little finger fire…their little chunk…and I can see how many players were on the Yarnell Hill Fire…my medical massager’s co-worker’s friends own JR Ranch-
From homeowners to WF/FFs to Forensic Weather experts to so many more- we are tightly watching…tightly.
and their “junk show”- burn all the freaking cacti you can in June ??? So why do we go from Type 3 organization to Type 1? Serious. Let’s talk truths…
night, hope to be less foggy soon to work on post 3- it was a 3 sectioned out post and I tried to sit in fromt of the pc- just not happening…zzzzzs
The falsifying of time cards for more money==I believe that was found on the Prescott FOIA’s if I remeber right–Joy is good at putting 2 and 2 together. Some of the time sheets were dated days the men were off and enjoying themselves at one of the local Pubs, yet getting paid for it. I do believe it was attributed to GMHS in particular–those records are out and must be examined closely. I do believe those men ought to be paid a bunch more than they are–the job is dangerous and the chemical exposure including the carbon and toxic chemical slurry mixed in is guaranteed health problems in life. The men should make enough they do not have to steal but stealing is stealing and if you don’t like the pay, danger and work at the pay rate then try mining or logging–both pay a hell of a lot more and on the same danger level–well logging is said to be the worse. Either way you ought to look at Peeples Valley as well since that ex Fire Chief is on tape explaining to Joy why he upgraded the charges on his water truck to a higher classification–it paid them more money. Also we were told –not by him but by one of the Yarnell insiders at the fire department that they switched locations between Peeples Valley and Yarnell because if Yarnell goes to Peeples Valley they get an out of town rate that is much better and vise-versa. There are undoubtedly scams that are sucking tax dollars much more than these petty ones and I suspect the books are even cooked on the amount of retardant charged–well if they scam small and it is over looked then it makes me suspicious of the big boys that do the overlooking.
If you are a scammer-a polite word for thief, you best remain quiet around Joy–your admissions can and will be held against you–maybe even in a court of law. Joy records things to her credit–then she has the proof and you can’t back track your actions you claim.
There is so much cover up and black outs and you can understand why–why Peoples Valley was so reluctant to give FOIA’s to Joy and used every subterfuge to hide their records. I am not sure even now she has them–I know at one point she had been two years and still had not received them from such a small operation as the Fire Department of that small community. They had worked the Yarnell Fire that killed 19 and those records are absolutely essential for public viewing.
But all the omissions, redactions, lies and cover ups brings high probability that there is skulduggery. Wild land fire fighting information is not a national security issue and ought not be redacted, hidden, and refused the public financing the whole of the system. If it is broken there are plenty of intelligent citizens and interested parties willing to expose the problems and have it cleaned up. It has gotten nasty and out of hand and too much is allowed –wild land fire fighters and any fire fighter after all boils to to being a public servant–at the beckoning of the public and should be one of the most transparent organizations Certainly these men are heroes–but being a hero does not give license to spurn the law. You may have the Presidential Medal of Honor but if you go out murdering people then you must be held accountable.
I believe there should be a thorough investigation of the system and many of the people involved–especially the Yarnell incident. If it turns into a larger investigation that is good too. Joy and the others here that are already detested by some are heroes in their own rite. You may take flack but your conscience adds goodness to your soul. You can rest well knowing you have done the right thing.
All that said, I was going to tell you how to deal with used car salesmen by loading up on garlic. But I have just made a burrito and sort of blackened my potatoes as I was typing this. I am one to get 5 projects going when I ought to stick to one. But eating carbon is not bad for you–it is breathing it that eventually brings you down with the nastiest of diseases–and sadly with almost a century and billions of dollars, doctors have not been able to cure cancer. They do slow it sometimes–and sometimes even the cure kills you. So stay away from breathing the smoke and chemicals as best you can.
Forgive my error and Just so you understand–there were only one or two involved in cooking the books concerning GMHS 18 or so are completely innocent so one or two bad apples are all that canl be proven to have done that. You might have guessed already who that might be. As usual the cowboy doing the branding gets the blame when the boss burns himself on the hot iron. Nixon was a prime example of pass the blame until the facts emerged.
.
Reply to Charlie post on June 29, 2019 at 8:26 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> The falsifying of time cards for more money– I believe that was
>> found on the Prescott FOIA’s if I remeber right — Some of the time
>> sheets were dated days the men were off and enjoying themselves
>> at one of the local Pubs, yet getting paid for it.
Minor correction. The evidence that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were falsifying their time sheets on the day before they died is based on HOURS WORKED, and not the DATE.
Granite Mountain WAS working an assignment on the Saturday before they died… and they WERE there… but they lied about when they actually got “off the clock”.
The Granite Mountain time sheet for Saturday, June 29, 2013 claimed an extra 3 hours of overtime work ( which was never actually performed ) for each and every crew member.
In total… that amounted to 60 hours of overtime work ( billable by the City of Prescott at upwards of $40 per hour ) that was never performed.
The time sheet that Granite Mountain turned in for their Saturdy, June 28, 2013 assignment listed that assignment as the “Mount Josh Fire”… and that SIGNED timesheet is publicly available at this link…
Granite Mountain Hotshots – Official Time Sheets for June 28, 29, 2013
http://media.phoenixnewtimes.com/9122596.0.pdf
The false time sheet submitted for the day before GM died was CONFIRMED by New York Times Correspondent Fernanda Santos in her book about the Yarnell Fire.
Back in Chapter 23 of this ongoing discussion…
** NEW YORK TIMES CORRESPONDENT FERNANDA SANTOS CONFIRMS
** THAT GRANITE MOUNTAIN WAS PADDING THEIR TIMESHEET(S) ON
** THE DAY BEFORE THEY DIED.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxiii-here/#comment-343753
Santos CONFIRMS, in her book, that the officially submitted timesheet for Granite Mountain on Saturday, June 29, 2013 had them all ‘on the clock’ and earning overtime pay until 10:30 PM that night.
But in the actual ‘narrative’ of her book… Santos also absolutely CONFIRMS that the entire Granite Mountain crew was NOT actually working until 10:30 PM on the night of Saturday, June 29, 2013, as their official timesheet SAYS they were.
In her book, Santos verifies that Marsh was HOME and back in Prescott in time to have dinner with his wife BEFORE the first call came in ( to Marsh ) about Yarnell shortly before 8:00 PM, and that the other GM Hotshots had all also been ‘dismissed’ from the ‘Mount Josh’ assignment in the EARLY EVENING on Saturday and were all back HOME circa 7:30 to 8:00 PM… and that they were ALL told they had the next two days off before being ‘dismissed.
Well…some time back I said I have a cautionary video to show WLF who think they don’t need to wear no stinkin’ respirator. But first, the backstory…otherwise you won’t understand how and why the video was ever made. But…the bottom line is, I hit the wrong button.
My Special Lady Friend ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday. But I told her that I had already ordered her some flowers for her birthday, so…unfortunately I couldn’t because I didn’t want to over do it and appear to needy.
So then my Special Lady Friend repeated her request and ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
And then I told my Special Lady Friend that unfortunately…singing a song was way out of my wheelhouse, lane and comfort zone, so I couldn’t.
So then my Special Lady Friend repeated her request and ask me to sing her my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
And then I told my Special Lady Friend that unfortunately, I couldn’t, because I wouldn’t be able to pick out my FAVORITE Christian song to sing because I liked them all so much!
And then my Special Lady Friend said, “I had about enough of your nonsense at NAU for the two years we were dating. Now, PICK OUT YOUR FAVORITE CHRISTIAN SONG AND SING IT FOR MY BIRTHDAY…OR I WILL PICK OUT ONE FOR YOU TO SING.”
So, you know…I started trying to sing my Special Lady Friend my favorite Christian song for her birthday.
But it didn’t go very well and then I got my buttons mixed up and recorded when I meant to turn the machine off.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MykNbYxXtGU
It isn’t quite as dramatic as my COPD video, but still…heads up!
But…then I got my second wind and finally got one done after about 20 takes. I think I look like a serial killer on death row who is pretending to have found Jesus in the hopes of getting out to kill again.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3uFP5-veDw
But in the end…my Special Lady Friend felt sorry for me and recorded over my voice with her own singing and so now we have kinda a Johnny Cash and June Carter thing going on. Or at least she has a June Carter thing going on. 😎
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6JVnlhQn1Ds
For your Lady Friend From Me as I go take that nap…
https://youtu.be/MPHYli7jd5A
but for her birthday wishes- it will be:
https://youtu.be/U9SPQcvlOfk
I did not watch your video first but funny I picked the same kind…hee hee
I enjoyed the realism of you both-
God Bless and Happy Birthday “Lady Friend”
When is her bday- as you know mine is the day after the GMHS fire fatality—few more days away—I have events planned but not sure I can do them…my pain has me going back to sleep….
thank you for all the videos—
Thank you Deidre-
oh and Josh Brolin could play you in the IM movie-
(kidding)
You…are a firecracker! 🧨
Special Lady Friend
https://youtu.be/_FBoNqnN7w4
found one-
https://youtu.be/gRybJmIYrxo
why is everything so cheesy???
Gary, what are the hidden dangers of the go along to get along?
why did you post for the world even the Special Lady Friend and the video “unlisted” for all of us to see- did we finally make it to the Christmas Card List?
I looked at that post one last time and tried to read the 2- just not happening- my takeaway; oh ok A new never seen before to the world blurry pic of Steed and 2 GMHS in a video and HOW IMPORTANT it is for homeowners and WF/FFs to share their accounts because we here at IM are the pixel puzzle masters…
and on post two you get to hear right from John Truett WHAT IS A STAFF RIDE…
I tried to peak for someone else at the third post but I faded—rather watch yours and her video over and over until I fall asleep
Bed time music by Gary…
It was freaking funny to see you looking all bald after all that hair in the 70s…what does she think of all that? Does she know yet? I know how can she not know— she could be blind if you only know another by face time…Flowers eh…come up with your OWN Birthday song for her…from the heart, pal. Really….I picked the same song as you both not knowing that was the video so that is me being generic but if you want to step it up…find one you picked and sing it without the karaoke lyrics running on the screen….
this video was on the screen on the right to you singing:
https://youtu.be/MKy-DmnBdvI
How many times have I said all of you are indeed among my best friends and confidants…dozens…hundreds? Not to mention how much I love all of you. So…who else would I share it with?
And I think you just might be on some really strong mind altering substances tonight?
Thanks for sharing these intimate videos with us, Gary, This is true love…
Well…our posts got crossed again, so please read the following update.
Oh…and one more thing, just because I am pretty sure you (Joy) would like to ask this question.
“Gary…since you are oversharing details about your relationship with your Special Lady Friend with some of your closest friends and confidants…what pray tell, happened to your relationship with her back in the day?”
Well…it’s actually quite simple. I could clearly see what was obvious to every one except her. She outclassed me in every category that our culture and society uses to measure people and in most categories…by a lot. And I was convinced that just as soon as she saw what everyone else could already see…I would never see her again,
So…one day she told me to go to hell and that she never wanted to see me again. And I didn’t try to change her mind.
But now…once I get my lungs, throat, brain and potty mouth fixed…who knows? Maybe I’ll get another chance to get it right?
I just have to learn how to become more Fred-Like, without actually becoming like Fred, you know…a Richard Cranium.
I just have to become more thoughtful and contemplative, less volatile, better educated and spoken, well read and versed, in addition to becoming more expressive about the importance that Jesus Christ and God play in my everyday life while quoting some of my favorite scriptures, religious scholars, philosophers, poets, and song writers who are not named Moby, quote scenes from great plays by recognized playwrights and not juvenile movies, quit thinking I am so darn funny, all while being able to discuss the latest great literary work I am reading and did I mention being able to quote highly respected and well known philosophers and religious scholars from throughout the history of mankind?
Gee…what are the odds of this ending well?
“Never Give Up…Never Surrender!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=
Oh…and I do have a correction. I shouldn’t have used the term, “blood clots or bruising” when talking about my head. I think I should have used a term more like, “subdural hematoma“ from old head injuries?
Although at that point while listening to my doctor, I was kinda on autopilot and not really processing what he was trying to communicate to me very well.
But…I am going to get that all fixed now with a little help from my friends at OWCP and Medicare. God Bless America and Socialized medicine and the good folks at the U.S. Department of Labor, Office Of Workers Compensation Program.
I do know our sawyers dropped a big tree on me when everyone lost situational awareness as we were cutting zigzag hot line up a very steep slope at night on the Indian Fire of 1975 on the Los Padres National Forest that took me down the slope with it for Mr.Toads Wild Ride, and it put really put a big dent in my hard hat.
But I don’t think it hurt my head? And I think that’s when I first found out that I probably cant be killed. I mean…don’t get me wrong, I know I’m not immortal and that I’ll die someday. I am just pretty sure that I can’t be killed. So…there’s that then.
The tree trunk obviously missed me, or I probably would have gotten a much clearer picture this whole, “I don’t think I can be killed theory”
Harold;
How did you know Napoleon Dynamite is one of my most favorite movies…like EVER. I mean…who can forget this classic scene,
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=mJYE0HuKNfI
And as far as the taxes go brother, I hear you and I feel your pain. Now…that being said, please allow me to tell you something about myself. I earn about 1 and 1/3 times as much as the average family does in the United States. I spend most of it on me, myself and I, plus the important things in this life like, guns, Jeeps, ammunition and more guns. Almost all of which would get me a very long prison sentences in your country…very long ones.
So…that being said., and as part of my retirement package, I still have had my long time choice of health insurance plans, Federal Blue Cross – Blue Shield, which is considered by most people to be a so-called Cadillac Plan.
My former employer…still pays for about 3/4 of the plan for me. When I had children I was responsible for, I always chose to go with one of the great HMO’s we as federal employees had access to because of course there are only small co-pays and I wasn’t responsible for any other out-of-pocket expenses and they could go to the doctor all of the time for “free.”
But…now I like Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield because whenever I try to make a new doctor’s appointment, or have a problem and they ask what kind of health insurance I have, no matter what part of the country I am in, they always say, “Oh yes sir, we can take care of you sir, right away sir!” And I like being treated that way.
Now…please stick with me here because I promise you I will eventually get to a point in my story. I was diagnosed with several fairly serious problems about 8 years ago with my head and brain. I was living in Prescott and I had been falling over several times a day. I knew it was as the result of a bad ear infection, and my doctor in Phoenix knew it was as the result of a bad ear infection.
But…after I went down to see him, he ordered me to get a MRI on my brain just to make sure I didn’t have a brain tumor because that can make people fall over sideways out of the blue as well…it was kinda a CYA.
Well..a few days after getting my brain scanned down in Phoenix, my doctor’s assistant called me and told me my doctor needed to meet with me. Of course I was very concerned and asked, “WHY?” I thought I just had just a serious ear infection? And then the assistant told me, “I can’t tell you, you will have to meet with your doctor in two weeks because that is his first available appointment.
Now…you know what I thought for two weeks, I thought I was a dead man walking. But…I said, ‘Fuck it, whatever is going to happen is going to happen.” My little brother didn’t cry like a little bitch (non gender specific) during the six weeks it took cancer to kill him a couple of years earlier, I sure the fuck wasn’t going to cry either because my brother would have been ashamed of me because he is waiting for me in Valhalla.
“Lo there do I see my father; Lo there do I see my mother and my sisters and my brothers; Lo there do I see the line of my people, back to the beginning. Lo, they do call to me, they bid me take my place among them, in the halls of Valhalla, where the brave may live forever.”
So…anyway, the two weeks went by and eventually I was meeting with my doctor down in Phoenix. And he told me, you have a brain tumor, but it is non malignant at this time, but you need to have it checked every six months for a few years and then once a year after that to make sure it isn’t growing or has turned cancerous. And I thought, well…that’s pretty good news and I started to get up.
And then my doctor said, and…you have a problem with the way the blood vessels are growing around your brain, there is a mass of them that are growing “haywire”, which is my term since I can’t remember the term he used and we need to keep an eye on those as well. And I thought, well…that doesn’t sound like good news and I started to get up.
And then my doctor said, and…you have a lot of bruising and associated blood clotting in areas around your brain, so we need to keep an eye on that as well every few months. And then I said, “Doctor…is there anything else I should know? And he said nope, that’s it.
Now…that was more than 8 years ago and I haven’t been back to the doctor about my brain or head since then. I made the management decision that I just didn’t want to pay for my 20% of brain surgery because I had Federal Blue Cross/Blue Shield and not an HMO.
I could have switched to an HMO at 8 different times over the past 8 years, but I didn’t want to. I know none of that will kill me because I can’t be killed and so far…none of that has effected the quality of my life either.
So…I think we can all agree that was a good call on my part because I wanted to wait until I turned 65 and went on socialized medicine along with my pension and social security (because I had a lot of jobs that earned SS outside of my government jobs) because I want you know…to have Medicare pay for all of the brain surgeries I need to get without me paying 20%, or giving up my Blue Cross/ Blue Shield.
Pretty fuckin’ smart…am I right? I mean…20% to get all of that fixed could add up to several more Jeeps and a bunch of guns…am I right?
Now…let’s review, I have 1 and 1/3 as much money as the average FAMILY does in this country. I don’t have anything to spend it on except for guns, Jeeps, ammunition and more guns, in addition to a government subsidized Cadillac Health Insurance Plan…and I am waiting for more than 8 fucking years to get my brain taken care of?
In Canada…Canadians pay $3000.00 less per family for every Canadian to be covered for all of the medical care they need, whenever they need it. If you were in my position…would you as a Canadian Citizen have waited more than 8 years to get your brain checked up on? FUCK NO YOU WOULD NOT HAVE, YOU WOULD HAVE GOTTEN THIS TAKEN CARE OF ABOUT 8 YEARS AGO!
Now, one thing you don’t know…is that I have a history on this thread of going off on political rants, which really annoys most people. But…I want to make everyone a promise right now. This is my last one because if you don’t care that there are three families in this country who own as much as the bottom 50% of the entire country, or that 99.9 % of President Trump’s tax cut went to the top 1% of America…then I sure the fuck don’t?
So…please allow me to state for the record one more time. I am off the reservation and I’m never going back. My race is over and I won. I have everything I need and almost everything I want except for some more high end sniper rifles with some really expensive glass because I enjoy long range precision shooting.
All I care about are this thread and WLF safety, my magnificent tome in progress because it will be without a doubt the greatest book ever written about wild land firefighting and being a hotshot.
And most importantly…the chance to get it right with my Special Lady Friend because I really fucked it up the first time. If you can live with having President Trump be Our Dear Leader For Life, so can I. Because he really likes people just like me.
I am Christian, White, Affluent, Conservative, Straight and best of all…my family immigrated from a Scandinavian country, he really likes people from Scandinavian countries.
I have a bigger piece of pie and the American Dream than I can eat for the rest of my life. How are you doing? Because chances are, neither you nor your kids are doing, or will ever do anywhere near as good as I am doing. And if that’s okay with you…it’s certainly okay with me?
Peace Out! ✌🏻
In other words…if I’m at the top of the Health Care Food Chain in this country and I am making inappropriate health care decisions on MONEY💰 💴 💵 , my God…what does that say about us as a society and what about the weakest and poorest among us?!!! What Would Jesus Do?
Okay, okay, okay…I have to tell you the truth. The inappropriate health care decisions I made for the last 8 years didn’t have anything to do with Jeeps, or guns, or ammo, or more guns.
But it did have everything to do with money…or more accurately the lack of it. My ex wife didn’t work for most of those years, just like she didn’t work outside of the home for most of the years we were married.
And up until just a very few months ago, I had three grown children and three grandchildren who were all black holes for money.
This is the first time I will have the money to get my fucking brain and head taken care of, mostly because socialized medicine is now finally going to pay for it.
So…I will ask the same question again for all of you CHRISTIANS out there. I am at the top of the health care food chain in this country and I have been forced to make inappropriate health care decisions based on MONEY, OR THE LACK OF IT, so…what about the poorest and weakest among us? WHAT WOULD JESUS DO?
Gary, I can be a little dense sometimes, was this whole post directed to me? I feel like I offended you somehow. I obviously haven’t known you long, so maybe I have got it wrong? I suppose it is possible not everything is about me, though. (sarcasm)
I’m sorry to learn you lost a brother too, when you’re close it really sucker-punches you. You lose a part of yourself…
On a happier note, I watched a movie last night that made me think of you called ‘Bad Words’ starring Jason Bateman. It was pretty good and crude/cringeworthy, maybe you’ve seen it? I’m guessing you also like Slapshot, The Holy Grail, Life of Brian, The Rum Diaries, The Big Lebowski, The Party Animal, Dirty Harry and Clint Eastwood in general…I could go on but I think we have the same tastes?
Oops, two more posts from you came in while I was making mine. I’ll get out of the way for a bit and come back. You’re on a roll…
Yes..I’m on a roll, tonight. And no, you didn’t do anything to offend me. I was just using you by talking at you to take cheap shots at everyone in this country who will do everything they can to save every baby from an abortion…but nothing to keep those same babies from dying in the street from neglect, malnutrition, and violence in addition to physical abuse, sexual abuse and exploitation a few years later while taking away their subsidies to be able to have minimum health care, That’s all. We can be a very cruel people.
Have you seen that photo of the two year old baby who drowned in the Rio Grande? United States law is very specific…she and her family were authorized by U.S. law to enter this country at a border crossing to claim refugee status.
That is U.S. law. If people don’t like the law, they need to change it. That is what makes us a Democratic Republic.
If we don’t like our laws, we the people have the power to change them. One person doesn’t have the power to arbitrarily and capriciously change them on a whim.
President Trump is directly responsible for the death of that baby because she ran back into the river after her father because the USCBP violated U.S. law on orders from President Trump and refused to allow them entry to claim asylum at a Point Of Entry as REQUIRED BY US IMMIGRATION LAW. and the Christian Right supports his negligent homicide of that innocent baby.
I just get this way sometimes. Trump was in Japan yesterday playing lapdog bitch for Putin, which always pisses me off.
And to be completely honest with you, even though I am fearless I am a little concerned what they are going to find inside my head after 8 years when they told me I needed to keep track of what was happening every six months. What if all of those problems are now too big to even operate on? That will break me of suckin’ eggs!
I’m just mad at myself for being so stupid because I didn’t get an brain scan earlier. I’m sorry I talked at you. Hell…my brother left me almost 200 grand when he died, you would have thought I could have found the money somewhere to go see a doctor? That is called poor money management.
I just wish I was Canadian 🇨🇦 because all of you are so darn nice! 🙂 And so many of you have died beside so many of us, in so many wars and President Trump has treated you so badly as some of our closest allies with the other Four of the Five Eyes.
I just need a time out while I get my head straight. I can’t even fix my own problems…much less the rest of the worlds.
And I’m sorry you lost your brother too. Mine was my best friend. He was supposed to last up to a year and he was gone in six weeks before I ever got to even see him since he lived in Alaska (where we were originally from) and he went into a coma on the day he was leaving to come down to Arizona where I was living with my family.
So…yeah, it was a sucker punch. Thanks, just ignore me…everybody else has learned to do that except for Joy, just I because she enjoys treating me so harshly.
Oh…and one more thing. We…the most powerful nation to ever exist in the history of the world, won’t give little children, soap, tooth brushes, blankets or bedding while we make them sleep on concrete floors inside dog kennel cages and no one is allowed to touch or comfort them.
We do that to punish them because our government doesn’t like the fact that they have followed U.S. law…they FOLLOWED U.S. LAW, so we are punishing them by denying them basic human kindnesses because they didn’t come from where my people did,…a Scandinavian country and they don’t look like my children looked.
Those little children didn’t write our U.S. laws, we did. They are following our U.S. laws and we are punishing them for doing so. So…you know, I don’t like that either.
Yup…I need a time out. My BULLSHIT meter is pegged out! Go to the church where they are having that memorial in Prescott this weekend. Those Christian Fundamentalist Bible Thumpers will be congratulating themselves about what fine Christians they are.
FYI…the GMIHC had a Christian Fundamentalist thing going on that was government sponsored, which violated just about every principle this country was founded on…but nobody gives a fuck IF you have the guns…I guess? City of Prescott = City Mayor and counsel = City Fire Department = City Police Department = Guns = Power = they can do whatever they want.
You can follow the same logical progression from Trump. So when I say one person can’t arbitrarily and capriciously change the law on a whim because we are a Democratic Republic and not a monarchy, of course what I mean is that isn’t SUPPOSED to happen according to out U.S. Constitution.
But Trump has command of the guns, and the guns give him the power to wipe his ass with the U.S. Constitution. So…end of story. “They” always say power comes out of the barrel of a gun…and they are right.
We can be a very cruel people.
Oh…and warlike. We are also a very warlike people. Cruel and warlike…that can be a very dangerous combination.
Yup…love em all. And of course you could just go right down the list of ALL of the Coen Brothers movies…am I right?
Wait just one cotton pickin’ minute here. Gee…I really hope that old saying doesn’t have any racist overtones today?
So…the Heights Church is where they are having the…”memorial” or whatever it is this weekend?
The Heights Church is a Christian Fundamentalist Church.
Darrell Willis is a Christian Fundamentalist and a member of that church.
The relationship between Ed Hollenshead and Darell Willis was based on Christian Fundamentalist Bible Thumping. For most of the time Ed and I were friends, he was NOT a Christian Fundamentalist, that started after he got to Prescott for the most part.
I think Ed has moved back to Prescott, or at least Prescott Valley?
The GMIHS government sponsored Christian Fundamentalism was based on the Heights Christian Church.
Robert Caldwell and his cousin Grant Mckee were both killed with the crew.
Robert Caldwell was a squad boss on the crew.
Someone was a youth pastor, I think it was Robert Caldwell at the Heights Christian Church?
Someone was always holding prayer meetings during crew breaks and preaching at the crew during those breaks looking for converts to become Christian Fundamentalists. .
Sad Sack was well on his way down that path.
I personally find all of that very offensive because of my affinity for Mormons and Christian Fundamentalists and members of the Heights Church believe Mormons aren’t even Christians, or believe in Jesus and are in a “cult” and not a religion. Although they said the same thing about you know…Jesus Christ and his followers for hundreds of years until Constantine got with the program…very generally speaking.
The Heights Church, just in case you want to go to the memorial is located on LARRY CALDWELL DRIVE
http://www.heightschurch.com/
So…what does all of that mean? I don’t have the slightest idea, but all of a sudden I’m interested what relationship Robert Caldwell has if any, to Larry Caldwell?
And…I guess I would like to know just how many members of the crew were also members of the Heights Christian Church? Including those who may have attended services or merely associated with that particular church on any level.
If you listen to some of Pastor Willis’ comments in the immediate aftermath of the deaths of the crew….I have always wondered IF religion and their belief in God and the big scheme of things played a role in their decision to follow Marsh”s Death March (which I am going to call it from now on copying Student of Fire) because there was definitely a, “Well…this all worked out for the best just like God wanted it to because they are in a better place now” theme going on back then. And I think it still is among some families? And while I get the whole “coping” concept with those beliefs. I just would like to know if any of those beliefs played any role in deciding to drop off down into that death chute, As in, their version of, “ʾIn shāʾ Allāh.”
Just curious?
And no Harold…none of that was directed at you except for the movie part. I guess I just find you someone who is comforting to talk at? Probably because you are Canadian, and I have always heard just how darn nice you people are?
Except for you know…your Canadian Armed Forces sniper who holds the world’s record for the longest kill shot at 3,871 yards (a mile is 1760 yards) Although he is probably a nice guy to talk to also, but I’m pretty sure he is a bad ass?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_recorded_sniper_kills#History
Canadian Armed Forces snipers hold three of the five top world record kill shots. So…I guess don’t fuck with Canadians, at least very much because nice only goes so far?
Gary, I just wanted to say Hi, before I sign off. I’m falling asleep on my keyboard. Been pushin’ it too hard this week. I wanted to respond to your posts, but I can barely see. I’ll catch up with you soon.
Troy,
Agonizing over choices one does not want to make-
If you cannot for you YOU – do it for your brother-
you can do this.
The choice you make is the one you resist that will set you free (Bobette Buster – https://vimeo.com/58947885)
today it is time…at 5:28 pm if I do not hear from them speaking public on here I will begin to tell the things Craig has told me…and today at 5:28pm if they have not spoken on IM I will begin to just share areas – no tuning back – I gave you all the time in the world…
Soon will mark 6 years
I will also talk about Woodsbury- you will learn those folks being puppeteer into thinking fighting fire as it was just done in June – nope…Sorry…you are being tightly watched across the USA and Internationally…us Forensic Weather – Fire Weather Nerds are here to stay… We are your future- you think you are fooling the taxpayers but soon enough you will see who the fools are…
Wtktt- look for your email – need something answered – thanks- heading there now to show you
The time to speak is now Joy–Mrs. Mash Lohman is infiltrated with the ideas she learned from her former husband Eric. And you see how his wild fire management ended. But I have to believe she is among those that are always right, never wrong. Individuals if the truth hit them in the face they would not see it or admit to it. So do not expect many to come forward–most certainly if they are in the clutches in the system and very apt to loose finances and gain the disdain of their peers at the same time. It is a funky business–if that word defines anything proper and truth seeking.
In the blackhawk down situation during the Bill Clinton times, 19 young heroes were killed just because some commander decided to go after a couple underling Somali shit heads. They were not worth much and the mission was a mess–loss of life and equipment–as costly in lives as it was in equipment. Sometimes I think Willis might have something–19 seems to be the devils number–19 terrorists were involved in killing the 3000 victims at the World Trade Centers.
Facts need to be out there but do not think those fellows that are promoting movies and books are looking to have the truth shown and that is despite the facts we have already seen. The main media is lax as well–something I do not understand since media usually jumps on situations that bear truth and would save lives.
Note that we are going on 6 years now since the death of those GMHS. There has been little change in attitude–the system has ’em by the balls so it is only those that have some that will speak out and have been speaking out.
There is nothing to fear but fear itself. FDR
Reply to Joy A. Collura post on June 28, 2019 at 1:00 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>>
>> Wtktt- look for your email – need something answered – thanks-
>> heading there now to show you
Yes, that is Troy Steinbrink in the photograph, second from the right.
Troy is standing next to his father, Duane Steinbrink.
That photograph is in that book about the Prescott Fire Department that Prescott firefighter Conrad Jackson published in 2014.
The photo was a picture of MANY of the ‘father/son’ combinations that have worked for the Prescott Fire Department, Fuels Crew 7, and the Granite Mountain Hotshots… including Ed Hollenshead’s son Cody Hollenshead, Marty Cole and his son, Duane Steinbrink and his son, Troy Steinbrink, Darrell Wills ans his son, etc., etc.
Most of the photos in that PUBLISHED book can be viewed at ‘Google Books’ just by selecting the ‘Preview’ option under the book listin…
A History of the Prescott Fire Department
By: Eric Conrad Jackson
Published by: Arcadia Publishing, 2014
https://books.google.com/books/about/Prescott_Fire_Department.html?id=fEz_AwAAQBAJ
A more recent ( March, 2018 ) PUBLIC photo of Prescott Fire Department FF Troy Steinbreink ( son of Prescott’s first Wildland Division Chief Duane Steinbrink ).
The photo accompanied an article that appeared in the Prescott Daily Courier.
Troy Steinbrink is the one on the far right, on the treadmill…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190629000547/https://www.dcourier.com/photos/2018/mar/29/984956792/
Here’s a little secret.
The link below will FORCE the photo of Troy Steinbrink and his father, Duane Steinbrink to be included in the free online ‘preview’ of Eric Conrad’s book about the History of the Prescott Fire Department.
The ‘father and son’ combination(s) photo will appear with Troy Steinbrink’s name highlighted in the caption under the photo. Just scroll up a little to see the whole photo.
https://books.google.com/books?id=vqxqBAAAQBAJ&pg=PA124&lpg=PA124&dq=%22Troy+Steinbrink%22+duane&source=bl&ots=oC4bBVDyZp&sig=ACfU3U0UpsqxR3GTX_830dhbyI7X6rBM_w&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwix6omttI3jAhVtmeAKHWZdCXgQ6AEwDnoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=%22Troy%20Steinbrink%22%20duane&f=false
Full CAPTION for this photo…
———————————————————————————
Firefighting for Prescott Fire Department has become a tradition in the families seen here. From left to right are Dan Sanders, Derek Sanders, Aaron Laipple, Paul Laipple, Tim McElwee, Travis McElwee, Tyle Cole, Marty Cole, Troy Steinbrink, and Duane Steinbrink. The father-and-son combinations of Bob and Dean Hinshaw and Darrell and Jared Willis were not available the day of the picture shoot.
———————————————————————————-
Health-wise, been a tough day
I have given editing rights to another so POST 1 should be at 5:28pm then the next two after
I gave the heads up emails to some but nothing yet
I personally will be back on IM to write about Woodsbury— and as well the BSR and for now a nap
What timezone???
This man has it right. Definitely something we need to get back to. for ALL of the WFs and FFs engaged in wildland fire suppression. After all, the critters in the Arizona desert are doing it and surviving.
“NEXT STEPS IN WILDLAND FIRE MANAGEMENT”
Source: Williams, J. (2002) FMT, 62, pp. 31-35. Jerry Williams was the Director of Fire and Aviation Management, USDA Forest Service, Washington Office, Washington, DC. and what follows is based on remarks made by the him at the National Fire and Aviation Management Meeting from February 25 to March 1, 2002, in Scottsdale, AZ.
( https://www.fs.fed.us/sites/default/files/fire-management-today/62-4.pdf )
“Firm Rules of Engagement
“The Ten Standard Firefighting Orders must be firm rules of engagement. They cannot be simple guidelines, and they cannot be “bargained.” They are the result of hard-learned lessons. Compromising one or more of them is a common denominator of all tragedy fires. On the Dude, South Canyon, and Thirtymile Fires, the Fire Orders were ignored, overlooked, or otherwise compromised.
“The Fire Orders mean little after we are in trouble. That is why we must routinely observe them and rely on them before we get into trouble. We know that no fire shelter can ensure survival all of the time under all circumstances. Entrapment avoidance must be our primary emphasis and our measure of professional operational success.
“Conditions on the fireline can rapidly change. In the pressure of the moment, it is easy for people to overlook something important. That is why we must encourage our firefighters to speak up when they notice safety being compromised. As Weick and Sutcliffe point out, “people who refuse to speak up out of fear enact a system that knows less than it must to remain effective.” We must promote a working environment where even our greenest firefighters feel free to speak up.
“Following an accident, a “standdown” should be an accepted practice for those involved, until the facts can be sorted out. However, it is a shame that our focus on accountability too often occurs after an accident. Culturally, we must shift the weight of accountability to the time before an accident takes shape. We must embrace the rules of engagement as a way of doing business—as a professional standard. Violation of any Fire Order must prompt management or supervisory intervention and, unless rapidly corrected, be unarguable grounds for release from the fireline, release from the incident, or—if egregious—serious personnel action.
“However, we must not adhere to the Fire Orders for fear of punishment. We must embrace the Fire Orders because we owe it to one another. In that sense, the Fire Orders must become a shared obligation, where the leader’s situational awareness depends on participation by the entire crew and where the crew’s participation is tempered with respect for the leader’s responsibility. Borrowing from the aviation community’s model of Cockpit/ Crew Resource Management, we must focus fireline operations more on what is right than on who is right.”
Gary had mentioned his father having met his death by falling down the Uranium mine shaft–It plays on your mind knowing that I had worked in the very same shaft at first back in 1965 and again later in the 70’s when I returned to Uranium mining. I had always worked in hard rock mines for the most part and had only about two years as an underground uranium miner–and those years were after 73 or I would be enriched with about $250,000 since I do have the cancers and COPD that has already killed upwards of 90% of those Uranium miners I had worked with in the mid and late 70’s.
I had never liked working for Kerr McGhee, of course none of the Uranium mines were anywhere near safe. I had worked Firerro, New Mexico as a raise miner but after about 9 months there the mine went on strike. Miners of my type were called tramp miners since it was not unusual for a mine to shut down for various reasons–the price of metal falls, or like the Tybo Nevada rat hole I worked in the investment money ran out or the Zinc mine at Mt. Hope, Nevada, the price of zinc dropped and there you go again.
Uranium mining is a beast of its own and you know damn well the devil is lurking down there in those miles of tunnels a thousand foot underground and ready at any moment to snatch your ass. For one thing the ground can not be sounded so you were often working under loose slabs ready to cut loose and like the fire fighters rotten or smoldering tree and loose branch you hope one does not fall with your number on it. The Uranium in those mines is gernerally black pitcheblende ore–the yellow and green carnotite ores are oxidized versions near the surface–not seen a thousand foot down. But the main problem is that unlike hard rock, sandstone has loose areas that can and will fall on you–instincts and fast reaction time are often your only salvation. Then there are rock blasts where I have actually dragged miners out from under a slab that it took four other miners all they could do to just lift one side of that slab. Somehow the pressure down 900 ft. in that case is such that it sometimes would cause these rock blasts as you were drilling a face. Those faces, or the forward sandstone you were drilling were up to 15 ft. high so you can imagine that a goodly sized slab could shoot out and pin you. Those fellows we fed into what is called a bullet–a cage enough to get a body in and thew were winched up a bore hole similar to what saved the Chilean miners–both survived in that instance –I only remember one name Frank–and saw him about a year later, I think why I remembered because he had crushed ribs but was able to be back at it. He had told me the other guy had quit mining.
Of course you know that my number came up when a slab came down on me in 79 when I was working at SOHIO–the Standard Oil of Ohio Uranium shaft on Laguna Indian Reservation, Seboyeta, New Mexico. I had worked the United Nuclear Mine for a couple years but the diesel smoke there was getting to me so I had opted to go over to SOHIO–where the drifts are not so huge and at least where I was working the diesel smoke not as prevalent, yet it was there due to early miners not putting proper length bolts in I was to be injured enough to ruin my mining career. I had lain in bed for two weeks at home after being taken out–I figured I would be able to recover on my own but the pain became so excruciatimg and the fact I could not walk or move without it I finally had Angie, the first or maybe second wife to get help to load me into our old station wagon and haul me to Albuquerque where at the Prysbyterian Hospital there they did a partial lamenectomy that did not hold but for a year or so until I found myself again on the floor of our home in Las Cruces–an older retired nurse would bring me drink and water bless her heart–and that time I could only take 7 days of the prone no walking situation and pain until I managed another ride. Angie had returned from Mexico with a visit with her Dad–the Jefe de Migracion at Berrendo, Chih. and her mom that had an adobe abode there at that border crossing. And there are some blood curdling stories there that Angie had seen such as men shot and blood splattered all over the walls due to some gambling arguement and others–so danger in New Mexico might lurk anywhere–well true the world over now a days.
In those days it was nothing for me to go to the Silver Spur after work and down a picture of beer. If it is still there they had those cold pictures ready for the miners and whoever ran that place knew how to keep the temperature at a point so ice was just forming. Whew it was good after manhandling a jack leg all day and the other things that driving drift involved. That Jack Leg weighed as much as I do and I was often carrying it around and even taking it up wooden ladders with me–It was my baby and it brought home the bacon.
I do not know if wild land fire fighting is like that but the Uranium mines always gave me a foreboding. Everytime I approached that cage to be lowered 900 ft. into the earths bowels, I had this distinct feeling it would had a good probability it would be my last trip. I never had that feeling in hard rock mining–maybe because I had been in and around hard rock mines since 9 years old. Even when I cowboyed for Charlie did his assessment work on his mining claims he had on the ranch–fluourspar and they were underground –some fairly deep.
Raise mining I did at Fierro was likely the most dangerous–those fellows do not have a long life expectancy and few miners will tackle it. But for some reason I never had the fear there that Uranium mining had brought. I had even fallen some 30 ft into a muck pile–m,y fault cause I did not have my studs in solid. You did not have a helper in raise mining–it was just too dangerous because you were drilling off timbers wedged in with wooden wedges and going straight up. I had used a Jack Leg there but when I worked at the Noble Mine at Pine Valley, Vern Harkness, the owner had bought some old Navy Stopers and those damn things were used dry so you had to keep your nose next to the air outlet to breath. The dust would fill the mine so you could barely see except right around that air exhaust. That by the way was in arsenopyrite–arsenic and pyrite compound. Those days no one bothered for dust masks but maybe that keeping your nose close to the machine was a mitagator.
I am sadden to see the many illnesses caused to the wild land fire fighter–they look like an Ambrosia Lake Uranium mine did after a shift or a coal miner that got the black lung fr0m too much of the black carbon he breathed. It wants to make me cry knowing what these young fellows face later in life if they are fortunate enough to survive a bad commander or some malady such as a chance tree or branch fall. The ignorance is so prevalent concerning the chemicals–that carbon they are breathing is the same shit the coal miners breathe. and even worse when mixed with the life killing chemical slurry drops. It is no wonder in my mind they suffer the same COPD, cancer, and heart failure problems I have today. The worse thing is their is so little said about it and these damn corporations are all complicit in keeping the truth hidden while it is in plain view. Those bastards can and do hire doctors and psychologists to do their dirty work. People are easily bought in some cases and you saw just what I am talking about when tobacco corporations had their doctors telling you that all this ballyhoo about that smoke causing heart failure and lung cancers, etc. was a mistake. Shit those doctors knew the truth but they wanted those Hawaiian Vacations and Mercedes payments–greed had them by the nuts.
It is likewise today–and like the mine inspectors that you could not find during the day in the Uranium mines, the game goes on. Hell, in all of my mining years, I never ever saw a mine inspector in any mine. They must have been as scarce as hen’s teeth –and what I heard they were mostly discussing the mining situation over wine and high priced vittles. So there you are, the little man working his but off is only going to get justice by other men who have walked his path.
Sorry for the many typing errors and misuse of proper syntax, etc–by who should be by whom and so on–damn me I ought to have more respect for the kings English–well if i had my way you would likely read my Irish version–maybe you did–It would take WTKTT to translate to Gailage
I enjoy your straight talk Sonny.
Thanks Diane Lomas–nice to know you are still around–I always enjoyed your questions and the answers the fellows give. It has brought a lot to the light and helped some of us make better sense out of things.
OMGosh…Diane stopped by!
Woodsman said
JUNE 27, 2019 AT 4:16 AM
Gary,
I didn’t “throw you a loop” on the “How Big is Big Enough” topic. I just reminded you of the assumptions of the calculation I made for the required size of the safety zone for Yarnell. Basically they needed AT LEAST 16.5 acres cleared of combustible material to survive. No huge refutation there at all.
Keep up.the good work!
My Response;
It’s not you Woodsman..it’s me. I went through a difficult period of my life over the past few years where I was conflicted about fire shelters, like so many other things. In fact…after more than 40 years of having my head on straight, I became fire shelter curious and I tried to find a compromise in order to co-exist between both worlds. But…I now realize that was wrong of me and I am working on an appropriate response, but it is the hardest MOP I have tried to write in the last six years.
But…I just wanted to come out and categorically state for the record, I no longer believe compromise is possible and you yourself have described where all fire shelters belong. I can’t be part of something that in the end is more likely to kill wild land firefighters than save them. All fire shelters must be fed to the woodchippers before they can kill again.
Whoops, I should have written.
But…I just wanted to come out and categorically state WITHOUT EQUIVOCATION for the record, I no longer believe compromise is possible and you yourself have described where all fire shelters belong. I can’t be part of something that in the end is more likely to kill wild land firefighters than save them. All fire shelters must be fed to the woodchippers before they can kill again.
Measuring twice and cuting once definitely doesn’t apply to me and my participation in this thread. Bummer.
Oh…and one more thing. Therefore…I am hereby terminating my one person campaign of, “How Big Is Big Enough…Because Size Does Matter!”
But…I do I have some good news for you! I am taking this opportunity to launch my new one person nationwide fire shelter campaign.
“Complete & Total Abstinence Is The Only Way To Safely Use a Fire Shelter!”
I have some variations of my new slogan out to some focus groups at this time…so I am still working on the final bumper stickers.
And just in case you are wondering what the straw was that finally broke me of suckin’ eggs and experimenting with being fire shelter curious (and in case my MOP never becomes more than word salad and therefore suitable for publication) here are the salient issues…in a Readers Digest Format.
1. The numbers are just too damn big. I was having a hard enough time coping with “up to” 16.5 acres and I can’t deal with “at least” 16.5 acres.
2. The math is just too damn hard. I can’t even get my CAPTCHA math right on the first try 50% of the time.
3. There are just too damn many variables.
So…I shut down. 🙁
And I want to extend my warmest welcome to Harold as well. We have a big tent here on IM and we really need people who aren’t in the industry and don’t have a particular angle or interest because they can and have asked the some of the most important and provocative questions.
And although we have lost some very important participants since we began six years ago, I hope they are just taking a well deserved break and they will be back because we need them.
Thank you so much Gary! I’ve have been told I see things very differently, so I hope that’s true and I can help. I am working on some questions.
By the way, how’s your head doing? I hope it takes your mind off your leg. No more break dancing for a while, OK?
I noticed Joy has been missing, I know she’s not feeling good either and she’s likely very busy, but I hope she’s back soon.
I just posted to Charlie, I am having to think too hard for CAPTCHA, so I need sleep. I never went to sleep last night at all and now it’s 4:00am here.
CAPTCHA: Can Anyone Please Tuck Canadian Harold Away? Yeaah, I’m done for the night zzzzzz.
Reply to Harold post on June 28, 2019 at 1:06 am
>> Harold said…
>>
>> I’ve have been told I see things very differently,
>> so I hope that’s true and I can help. I am working
>> on some questions.
That’s a great way to simply get ‘up to speed’ and/or make sure you are getting what you want and/or came here for.
There are LOTS of people who follow this forum who know a LOT about the REAL evidence record, and some of the most intense and enlightening discussions have come out of someone simply ‘asking a question’ or looking for clarity on something they’re not sure about.
That being said… I have a question for YOU.
I think you said you “only heard about the Yarnell tragedy about 6 weeks ago”.
If that’s the case… then what was it that actually brought it to your attention after all this time?
I’m just curious.
The short answer is the movie…
But, there’s an interesting twist to it.
Normally I get my news from TV. However, at the time of the tragedy, I was still going through a gauntlet of my own, so I was really out of touch with the world in general. I suspect there was some coverage on the (Canadian) news, but I was certainly unaware of it.
Now, I know how this is going to sound, but I swear to you on my mother’s grave this is the truth:
Fast forward to about 6-8 weeks ago. I was returning some movies to the local library and I was in a hurry to keep moving, so I decided to drop off and run. On the way out I passed the cart where they keep the movies that are ready to go back on the shelf. I blew by that, and was going out the door, when I suddenly had an urge to go back and check.
I know, I know, but it really happened this way.
I quickly riffled through the movies and one caught my eye. Only the Brave. I looked at it and put it down a couple times, but I couldn’t resist it so I went back and checked it out.
(I have to admit, Jennifer Connelly may have had a little bit to do with it…I mean… Jennifer Connelly c’mon, right?…please don’t tell my wife.)
Back to being serious.
Normally I read the case to see what it’s about, but this time I didn’t, because I was short on time. So I had no idea what it was about, going in.
I watched it 3 times that week, including the commentary, and I just needed to know more about what really happened. I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.
The I saw your comment, somewhere, telling some ignoramus to come here to find the truth and the rest is history.
I would like to point out that even though I’m not in the industry, there’s an extensive amount firefighting history in my immediate family, as well as many of my friends and extended family. (My uncle was even local fire chief for as long as I can remember) . So I grew up directly in the environment and it was a big part of my formative years.
I know the feeling of not knowing if that person is coming home, and I believe that’s why I feel so connected to this tragedy and why I need the TRUTH.
My wife was even on the fire brigade at work and received a lot of training, so she has let me bounce some ideas off her, as well. She was also a certified Level III Health and Safety Plant Chairperson. She’s so much smarter than me.
So, I understand how important it is to prevent this from EVER happening again, and the only way to do that is to get to the TRUTH, the WHOLE TRUTH.
I hope no one feels I was being deceptive when I said I wasn’t in the industry, because I personally am not. I guess in hindsight, I am in a vicarious way, but I didn’t see it that way, so you all can decide how you feel about it, and I’m sorry if I misled you.
To be honest I don’t really know the first thing about the rules and procedures of firefighting, especially wildland firefighting, but I am learning a lot with with everyone’s help. Thanks everyone!
Furthermore, my family were all structural firefighters, which I know is apples and oranges when it comes to firefighting. I am absolutely fascinated by, and wish to learn so much more about, wildland firefighting.
Thanks for asking, and listening, WTKTT!
This is what it’s going to take to make real change – citizens standing up & demanding answers and accounting of their tax money being spent. Our own industry is obviously incapable or unwilling to police itself.
Thanks for caring enough about us, Harold. It really makes a difference.
An amazing story Harold–thanks for sharing.
Harold,
You posted “I began a search and quickly found the SAIT report, which left me totally unsatisfied, and I knew at that point there was a cover-up.”
What was / were the thing(s), factor(s), whatever, that convinced you there was a cover-up by the SAIT after reading the SAIR?
Yes Harold, thanks for asking, both my head and leg are fine. That damn trailer actually got my leg in three places, but the others were’t as bad.
I think I will post some photos to show everyone just how close I came to being killed by that damn Jeep hauler. That is why it was a life changing event and I officially retired from “Doing Stupid Things.” Although I am a lot lot Bruce Willis in “Unbreakable”, I can be hurt, but I’m pretty sure I can’t be killed.
I told my Special Lady Friend (who is exceptionally religious, but not Mormon) that I officially accepted Jesus in the nano second between when that Jeep Hauler almost crushed me to death but the Hand Of God knocked me out of the way and it crashed into the back of my Jeep instead.
I did meet my Special Lady Friend at a church sponsored dance at NAU, so what can I expect? Unfortunately, she keeps giving me Pop Quizzes about religious stuff and I keep failing. I try to fake it with my answers, which she finds both endearing and irritating…but mostly irritating,
I wish I could talk like RTS does, since THOSE PEOPLE speak in a code only they understand with lots of key words and phrases thrown about Jesus. Maybe I could wear a wire and have RTS on other end of it if I ever get her out to dinner and then RTS can tell me key words to say, like referencing “Second Corinthians” instead of “Two Corinthians” like President Trump did while trying to convince Evangelical voters to love him at Liberty University.
https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10153849613726800&id=7976226799&refsrc=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.google.com%2F&_rdr
Trump didn’t even have to convince them to like him, he had them at “Supreme Court” since NOTHING else matters to them even if I am going to have to learn how to speak Russian at my age, or be executed as an enemy of the people…am I right?
Will you sponsor me as a citizen if I emigrate to Canada? My family came this close to becoming Canadians while my father was working on building highways up in Alaska. I was almost born in Canada instead of the U.S. Territory of Alaska. Can I get extra points for that? I promise to get my brain tumor removed here before I move up there, and as far as the COPD goes…I’m pretty sure I’m getting better.
My impact resistant bicycle helmet came, but I ordered the ‘Muddy Pink” one to help with viability when I go outside but they just sent a Pink one. I am going to keep it though because I’m pretty sure nice store clerks will want to help the stupid old man in the pink bicycle helmet even more. I mean…wouldn’t you? There’s no telling what someone like that might do…am I right?
Anyway..yes, my leg and head are just fine now. I think I will post a new photo of my leg so everyone can see how fast I heal. Again…thanks for asking. I hoped Joy would ask, but I have noticed she really isn’t very nurturing and is often very harsh with me just like RTS is ….am I right?
Oh…and one more thing. If my Special Lady Friend ever discovers my potty mouth with my on line persona here on this thread…I am going to be dead to her…so mums the word. 🤫
Oh…and one more thing. I tried to watch those Democratic debates but I couldn’t deal with some much nonsense.
I want them to cover that debate stage with broken glass and then whichever candidate will strip down nude and low crawl across it is the person they pick to take on Putin’s Bitch ( gender specific).
Because I don’t want to learn how to speak Russian even though they named Russia after my people…the “Rus”, or those who row. I have a lot of relatives in northern Russia and Belarus, which is historically known as ‘White Russia.” But…I am really bad at learning new things. So…
If you come to Canada bring as many bags of gold as you can, they tax EVERYTHING here. You might want to leave that tumour in as well, you’ll need it to put up with our leader.
Oh, and you will also need to learn to speak Chinese, they will OWN us shortly.
So a helmet, hmm? Going all ‘Napolean Dynamite’ on us are you?
Hmmmmm…decisions, decisions?
Well…I guess I had better just stay here and fight then.
I am kinda worried though, because President Trump says he has all of the “tough” people who have all of the guns on his side?
I’m pretty sure he hasn’t seen the inside of my gun safe, under my bed, my pillow, my car seat, my glove box, most of my pockets, both of my ankle holsters or my double gun shoulder holster….just for starters.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5oZi-wYarDs
I had better enroll in Rex Kwon Do though to get some more skills for the coming battle.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Hzh9koy7b1E
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed with the blood of tyrants and patriots.”
Patriots like me!
Correction,
“The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it’s natural manure.”
Thomas Jefferson
FUCK THAT RAT FACED BASTARD PUTIN AND HIS LITTLE BITCH!
There was no code with Jesus–he made it plain and simple with two commandments.–ask your lady friend if she knows those–Old Jesus did not want to complicate life–
I hope you don’t mind if I put this here Charlie,
I was going to post it up above but I see Joy is about to do something big, and I did not want to disrupt that thread.
I just had a very poignant moment that I wanted to share with you all.
Realizing the significance of this weekend, I was standing in front of my calendar, lost in a thought, when I noticed it’s from 2013.
(It’s a custom frame, so I keep my old ones and reuse them to save money)
I checked the perpetual index and this is the first time the cycle has repeated since then. I just felt it was something I needed to share. I think it’s a sign.
I don’t know if I should have posted this, but I’ll definitely be thinking of them this weekend.
Ahhhhh, thanks for the advice, but…I have a strict rule I live by.
Well…it’s actually more of a guideline than a rule.
If it ain’t broke…try not to fuck it up.
So….
Oh, and FYI Harold…Joy is ALWAYS on the verge of doing something BIG!
So…don’t hold your breath until she does because you know…you will die!
So a football field size of boulders would be inadequate–that would be only about an acre and a third. However there they could have found refuge under the huge bouder pile where there were several places to get below the surface. It is sensible since the flames were laying down almost level to the ground with the winds and lapping out up to 100 ft. which is a third the distance of a football field. So that tiny clearing they did was of no use at all.
However I should revise my estimate on those boulders–much more than I had estimated by memory I think. I would like to go back to the spot where they died and get a better estimate of the boulder field that was a very short distance south of where the 19 deployed. Obviously if you can get below ground there is some advantage since the story of Pulaski speaks to saving his crew in a tunnel–however even there there was some killed. Well I will not do that since 100 hikes–Joy gave the count i think 105 hikes we had made together to the site with various people. She has made over 900 hikes there so is much more contaminated than I am–but I do not wish her to add more. Maybe someone that is good with google maps can hone in on the boulder field and get a very good estimate–that would be Col. Dan in Idaho if he is still keeping track of IM.
I was quite amazed that people that have no wild land fire fighting understanding or experience could attack the wild land fire fighter that had put out his analogy of the death incident of GMHS at Yarnell. Shows how ignorance shows its ugly face. I wondered what credentials Amanda had to talk on the subject–maybe she can inform us or someone has that information. Loosing a loved one is sad but does not make you an expert on wild land fire fighting; likewise, I am not one so informed that my opinion rates. I did see the error since I was there shortly before they went off the deep end–could have done that myself if I only had half a brain but I almost let Joy do it–Thank God I did go back and get her–I do wonder if she would have sat there until the GMHS crew came along and they would have rescued her their way. Whew, glad I had no part in that crew.
These are some quotes from a WF with the website blog titled “Student of Fire” with numerous blog posts, the one below titled: “About Student of Fire.”
You will want to check this guy’s website out. He posted from 2016 until 2018 and then kinda quit. WTF?
( http://studentoffire.org/ )
And another link ( http://studentoffire.org/index.php/sample-page/ )
“About Student of Fire
“The idea for this website came from my growing enthusiasm for SEEKING OUT WISDOM ANYWHERE IT COULD BE FOUND. This is my fifth season in fire and it seemed a good way for generating ideas and pursuing them further. But going from firefighter to student of fire, I owe that to Paul Gleason among others.” (emphasis added)
“During a recent 2800-mile road trip to the southwest, I MADE A SITE VISIT TO THE 1990 DUDE FIRE and attended a staff ride in Arcadia California for the Loop Fire of 1966. While revisiting the documents tied to those incidents – THINGS LIKE INVESTIGATION REPORTS, newspaper articles, old photographs and maps – one thing became ingrained in me. It was A SPEECH PAUL GLEASON MADE IN 1996 … honoring those killed 30 years earlier in the Loop Fire. “UNFORTUNATELY, MUCH OF OUR KNOWLEDGE AND LESSONS LEARNED ABOUT WILDLAND FIRE HAVE BEEN GAINED ONLY THROUGH THE HIGH COST OF FIREFIGHTER’S LIVES.” (emphasis added)
The Student of Fire aptly noted that “IT TAKES COURAGE TO STAND UP TO THE STATUS QUO, TO THE WAY THINGS HAVE ALWAYS BEEN, AND SAY I THINK WE CAN DO BETTER, I THINK WE SHOULD DEMAND MORE FROM OURSELVES.”
He (SoF) was in some sort of Agency meeting about the upcoming new outlook on fire management and this is what he said: “I got to see that today, in person. A room full of people voicing their opinions, thoughts, and doubts about a vision for the future, about their role in it, and how it would all play out. Today I witnessed some serious leadership at work and it was awesome.”
Please spend the time and read this guy’s posts and commentary.
He seems like a very bright fellow who truly loves Wildland Firefighting with the same fervor that many do. He has looked at the evidence and coins an interesting phrase relevant to the YH Fire – “MARSH’S DEATH MARCH” in the post below titled: On the Road: Yarnell posted January 18, 2017. (emphasis added)
He (SoF) is criticized harshly by the BWS AM with the classic guilt trip attempts and then she steers him to a link with the Jon Maclean website.
YARNELL HILL AND GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOTS BOOKS AND THOUGHTS
July 2, 2016 by studentoffire
I think he takes far too seriously the accounts in these books he lists, especially from McDid-Not and others. And that is his privilege and prerogative to do so.
“’WHY DID GRANITE MOUNTAIN LEAVE A GOOD SAFETY ZONE?’ THIS FAILURE GETS RIGHT TO THE HEART OF HOW A MAJORITY OF US APPROACH THIS EVENT, WHICH HOLDS SOME PITFALLS. IT IMPLIES THAT UNTIL WE FIND THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, WE DON’T HAVE ENOUGH INFORMATION TO LEARN ANYTHING OF VALUE.” (all emphasis added)
“HONORING THOSE WHO HAVE FALLEN BY LEARNING AS MUCH AS WE CAN TO PREVENT SIMILAR TRAGIC EVENTS IN THE FUTURE DOESN’T NECESSARILY ENTAIL HAVING INFORMATION THAT DOESN’T EXIST. WE WANT TO REVISIT THE YARNELL HILL TRAGEDY AND SEE A SPECIFIC DECISION OR TURNING POINT, WHERE WE CAN NEATLY SAY “THERE, THAT’S WHERE THEY SCREWED UP; THAT’S WHY THEY WERE KILLED”, OR, “THAT’S WHY THEY DID WHY THEY DID”. (emphasis added)
“MAYBE WE DON’T HAVE AN UPDATED LCES, A NEW SET OF FIREFIGHTING ORDERS OR WATCH OUT SITUATIONS BECAUSE OF YARNELL HILL. BUT YARNEL [sic] HILL HAPPENED. MAYBE THAT’S THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER: SOMETIMES THE LESSON WE WANT TO LEARN ISN’T NECESSARILY THE LESSON BEING AFFORDED TO US. I FIND THIS TO BE TRUE, TIME AND TIME AGAIN, IN MY PERPETUAL PURSUITS OF KNOWLEDGE AND THE NEVER-ENDING STUDY OF FIRE.” (emphasis added)
The GMHS had LCES, however, they failed to properly apply LCES as it was designed. They had the best view of the entire fire, save Air Attack, so the “L” prong is covered. They had communications, however, failed to properly apply the “C” prong by talking mostly on their discreet Crew Net, The properly applied he “E” prong by using an Escape Route to go from their perceived danger to the black and their “Lunch Spot.” This is the common definition and use of the “E” prong of LCES, a route FROM danger to safety. NOT from safety into danger which is what they did.
The GMHS completely perverted the meaning and use of the term “Escape Route” and turned it on it’s head. The SAIT-SAIR basically ignored honestly dealing with this issue and addressing the fact that the GMHS were deceptive, among other things.
Go to his Student of Fire website and check it out. He has a ton of good material on all things wildland fire
Thank you for that.
The ACTUAL link to his ACTUAL Blog post about his ‘road trip’ to Yarnell is here…
Student of Fire
On The Road: Yarnell
Published: January 18, 2017 by studentoffire – 19 Comments
http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
There is a also a PERMANENT copy of this ‘Yarnell Road Trip’ report saved in the “Internet Archive” ( Wayback Machine ).
That SAVED copy of this page ( and all 19 comments to date ) is here…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190623235752/http://studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell/
He, too, WISHES those tasked with investigating the Yarnell fiasco could have come up with SOMETHING to say to the WFF industry-at-large.
Something. ANYTHING.
From his online “Road Trip to Yarnell” article…
————————————————————————————————–
This fire was my generation’s Storm King.
This was a big fucking deal.
What I’d really like is for there to be another fire order or watch out situation. Something a bunch of overpaid stiffs decided was a critical element in the tragedy of Yarnell, something I could tell younger guys about, as a tip, a LESSON LEARNED.
( One of his NOTES from when he was actually visiting the fatality site… )
I put in a chew and sat on a bench and wondered why the hell they decided to make
that mad dash, to go on Marsh’s death march.
—————————————————————————————————-
And for anyone who remembers that Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby first did all of the following on June 30, 2013…
1. Spent the day on June 30, 2013 dealing with a chaotic and dysfunctional command structure and was trying to just find a place where his crew could SAFELY engage the fire.
2. Spent the late afternoon saving the life of another Hotshot crew’s lookout ( Brendan McDonough ) because he had lost his situational awareness and had allowed himself to get caught in a life-threatening situation.
3. Then had to take the time to save all FOUR vehicles belonging to that same other Hotshot crew from getting ‘burned up’ because they, too, had lost their situational awareness and had NOT returned to their vehicles in time to move them out of harm’s way themselves.
4. After dealing with this other hotshot crew’s screw-ups for more than a half-hour, Brian Frisby then had to evacuate his OWN crew in the nick-of-time to the Ranch House Restaurant.
5. Then he became one of five firefighters who were the FIRST to see the full horror out at the Granite Mountain hotshots deployment site.
…and then thinks that Brian Frisby just “went about his business” after that day…
…think again.
Brian Frisby’s sister Corianna ( who was the first one to comment on this ‘Yarnell Road Trip’ posting ) says her brother was NEVER THE SAME after the Yarnell fiasco/tragedy.
—————————————————————————————————-
Comment By: Corianna Lee – January 18, 2017 at 5:11 am
Thanks for your post. My bro is the sup for Blue Ridge, these guys were his brothers in every sense of the word. He has done his best to move on, but was never the same after the event. These are heroes who push on after such tragedy.
—————————————————————————————————–
Brian Frisby is now ‘on record’ with emails saying that the “Human Factors” ( the BAD kind ) were “off the charts” that day in Yarnell… and that there are MANY things that have been “swept under the rug” regarding what happened that day.
And he, of all people, would certainly KNOW.
No one has a monopoly on PTSD… and not everyone “wears it like a badge”, either.
Brian Frisby did everything HE was SUPPOSED to do that day.
He was summoned to a dangerous fire, and he brought his entire crew home SAFELY.
But others did NOT… and he witnessed it all.
I hope he ( Frisby ) will be okay.
And… as you pointed out… also some interesting PUBLIC comments left on this same posting by other GM family members like Mrs. Deborah Pfingston and Mrs. Amanda Lohman ( formerly Mrs. Amanda Marsh ).
Brian Frisby will never be okay, I’m sure he has gotten better and will continue to do so, but he will never be okay. He saw, heard, and smelled too much to ever be okay again, just as several others did as well like AZ DPS EMT Eric Tarr.
But, what the fuck do I know…everybody is different? So…maybe? I just know it would have driven me to my knees and totally incapacitated me with shock, horror and grief.
It affected even us non-fire fighters as well. I could never get by that monument we erected for the GMHS without breaking up. It is an indelible memory and a heart wrenching to know we had passed those young fellows and that in a very short time we saw them last they would be led to their death.
It is an unfathomable tragedy that dries out to the heavens for the absolute truth of why those young heroes were killed. Certainly human factors, but why and how can that be prevented–not another story that says God had other plans for them or they just did what all wild land fire fighters would do-protect structures. Damn the whole town of structures is not worth one of those young men’s lives.
Sounds like a really squared away person.
I read the posts and wesites by RTS–could not believe that Amanda would attack that wild land fire fighter about Marsh–well I can knowing her stance. That man made a 1200 mile trip to honor those men–I noticed Phingston wants to hike him to the tree that stood for 7000 years (or what they say in the thousands that GMHS supposedly saved). Maybe they did but I am still scratching my head on how a tree could survive thousands of years and hundreds of wild fires without a firefighter in sight–then suddenly be saved by GMHS crew. Perhaps but I am still a skeptic and would say that sounds like hype to build the reputation of GMHS.
Reply to Charlie post on June 27, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I noticed Phingston wants to hike him to the tree that
>> stood for 7000 years (or what they say in the thousands
>> that GMHS supposedly saved). Maybe they did but I am
>> still scratching my head on how a tree could survive
>> thousands of years and hundreds of wild fires without
>> a firefighter in sight–then suddenly be saved by GMHS
>> crew. Perhaps but I am still a skeptic and would say
>> that sounds like hype to build the reputation of GMHS.
Alligator Junipers have evolved to be FIRE RESISTANT… especially the OLDER, and LARGER ones.
Just ask the USFS. They know all about it.
From the United States Forest Service ( USFS ) Fire Effects Information System ( FEIS ) online database…
Species: Juniperus deppaeana ( Alligator Juniper )
https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/jundep/all.html
And within that USFS document, there is a specific section about
FIRE EFFECTS with regard to “Alligator Junipers”.
https://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/plants/tree/jundep/all.html#FIRE%20EFFECTS
——————————————————————————-
ALLIGATOR JUNIPER – FIRE EFFECTS
IMMEDIATE FIRE EFFECT ON PLANT:
Alligator juniper appears resistant to the effects of fire.
Consequently mortality of alligator juniper is generally low, even after fires of relatively high severity.
The probability of mortality may depend at least in part, on the size of the tree.
Researchers have observed fire scars on old alligator junipers which indicate these large trees have survived MANY surface fires.
PLANT RESPONSE TO FIRE:
Alligator juniper is capable of prolific sprouting after above-ground vegetation is consumed or damaged by fire.
——————————————————————————-
Thanks WTKTT. I knew that but I did not think the FS was up on that. They can take a bunch of lightening strikes as well–I love those trees and have often chewed their berries–wait until they are dry though. Good Indian medicine–especially for urinal problems.
And let’s be sure and keep in mind those critters out there on fires, much more skookum than some WFs, including the GMHS. These critters, for the most part, have LCES and know it and follow it …
These quotes are from an AZ Central article bout the recent Woodsbury Fire on the TNF and are wildlife management personnel and / or rescue personnel
“The fortunate thing about this fire is it’s burning in a mosaic pattern rather than just a swath of straight fire where nothing can escape,” Burnett said. “Animals have escape routes.”
“Wildlife are very resilient,” Burnett said ” They are very perceptive. They often know when danger is near and leave the area. Many of the larger animals move out of the area before the fire hits. Not all will get out in time.”
And these critters that failed to make it out in time are apparently in the rules are Hillbilly category, smarter than that, much smarter …
Joy has some very telling photos of the scorched dear and javelina taken just after the fire. There are also some photos of those that did not make it but it was much lower than 19 that we found. All was needless had that fire been handled properly from day one.–a lightening strike the whole town witnessed after it showed smoke and many even saw it strike–yet the damn thing was allowed to escape the boulders and get into manzanita so it would be a full fledged wild fire.
The inmate crew were put on it but told to stand down–to their credit they wanted to do more. I am always bothered that this country would use people as slave labor. Those inmates are people you know and deserve the same pay as any other man working that fire. We have become like the Chinese in that manner–and I think all those men get is 17 cent an hour and some rations used on wild fires.
Those men did come to my cabin after the fire and work a defensible space around it. I made an agreement of $300 worth of work since that is what I had available. But those men went far beyond what I paid them. That Arizona is a pinch penny state and treats people like so many animals and speaks to their tactics to keep from paying the proper dues to the loved ones. They call themselves Christians but if that be Christian then count me out.
Joy did get much information from them and why they did not quench the fire the first night. Whoa–what can stop that girl? She is in there for the duration and the Juggler to get the facts..
Arizona overall…is a very bad state who treats people…their people, very poorly.
Reply to Charlie post on June 27, 2019 at 11:51 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I read the posts and websites by RTS – could not believe
>> that Amanda would attack that wild land fire fighter about
>> Marsh – well I can knowing her stance. That man made a
>> 1200 mile trip to honor those men.
Then I suppose you ALSO saw the comment that was made ( by ‘Matt’ ) right AFTER that.
Short, and to the point.
Student of Fire
Article Title: On The Road: Yarnell
http://www.studentoffire.org/index.php/2017/01/18/on-the-road-yarnell
———————————————————————
Comment from: Matt on January 27, 2017 at 7:55 pm
It is unquestionably a tragedy that 19 men in the prime of their lives were cut down by fire. It is completely understandable that the survivors of those men do everything they can to honor their memories. It is unforgivable that we allow sentiment and tradition (to) prevent us from learning anything from the human factors surrounding Yarnell because we continue to be blinkered and sentimental in our eagerness to “not speak ill” of the dead. It is nothing short of astonishing that the official conclusion was that everybody involved in the Yarnell Hill Fire did everything right – despite the incineration of the 19 hotshots by flames so hellish that granite boulders fractured. Covering up facts because they make us uncomfortable dishonors the dead, and ensures the same mistakes will be made in the future.
———————————————————————-
Wow! Great comment. Some folks may have reading Investigative Media afterall. Either that or the contradiction in general is obvious to more people than we think. Kudos, anonymous Matt, kudos.
Yes–that man laid it on the line and thanks WTKTT for bringing it here.
I see Amanda wanted studentoffire to change his blog to meet her narrative. she has been doing that for a long time.
Thanks Bill–and narrative it is–but she is convincing since you have had movie directors, book writers and even wild land fire fighters that know better following her line. She has clout but that won’t wash with the old time wild land fire fighters. We are sad for her loss, but no matter how much it hurts the truth will prevail–even if some can’t handle the truth.
I tend not to waste much time with her–but she is a viper.
I did revisit the Student of Fire site. That fellow seems to have a wealth of wild land fire fighting knowledge and experience behind him. A good reference site–thanks RTS.
Glad you enjoyed it. It’s a good site with good posts but then the guy just quit posting in 2018
I would be remiss if I didn’t take this opportunity to thank Mr. John Dougherty for all the exemplary work he does in the name of truth and justice, as well as for building this site and allowing a regular Joe like me to post my thoughts. Thank you John.!
Thanks for your comment about John Harold– Joy and I had the good fortune to meet several times with John and even hike the area where the area where the GMHS crew died. He did a documentary on the incident including a video that I am certain Joy posted on her site.
John is one of the few journalists that has left this site open to any and all interested in the Yarnell wild fire. He has allowed opinions and facts of the fire to be freely expressed, banning no one from posting. He is one of the few journalists willing to go to any length to get at the truth–I witnessed how he would quickly take off from Phoenix to travel to meet people that he could interview concerning the fire-and of course there are his trips to Peru protesting and investigating the mining companies and people that are wrecking the environment and taking advantage of the poor by placing them in unsafe conditions at pitifully low wages. Greed has run amuck in many of those cases with neglect both to the environment and safety of people.
As you noted John’s investigative site and many of the people on it are well qualified to produce a documentary of the real facts of the Yarnell incident and the environmental impact of the Yarnell slurry dumps–toxic dumps that ironically could have saved the GMHS heroes yet instead made their terrible impact upon the lives of the Yarnellites.
The sad thing is that many of the sick ones there still do not connect their illnesses to the slurry drops. Knowledge indeed can be a life saver while blatant false misrepresentations of the toxins they disperse are a killer.
People tend to believe the Forest Service representatives and the Chemical dispersing companies. Indeed there are many good people working these industries. But the cover up at Yarnell concerning the deaths of the 19 are so obvious that it is like a two by four conking you on the head once you see the pages and pages of blacked out information concerning the fire and the absolute opposites found in FOIA information vs. what is being told publicly.
Most of the men and women posting here are professionals with decades of fire fighting experience behind their belts. They have managed crews and been on hundreds of wild fires and know the proper methods and procedures to work these fires–why so many are disgusted with the blight the management they saw that happened with the Yarnell disaster. The killing of the 19 was no accident as the players involved with the catastrophe want to portray it. It was needless and careless and a situation that must be remedied.
Your suggestion that these men should make a sequel documentary about the truth of what happened at Yarnell is well taken. This tragedy when understood and exposed put into a documentary would guarantee the saving of future lives for those heroes working in wild land fire fighting. The world needs to know the truth about the needless tragedy that is history’s greatest fire fighting tragedy of the century.
So anyway…I do have a couple of updates that are near and dear to my heart.
1. I haven’t given up on my favorite bone to chew on, “How Big Is Big Enough?” But…it’s just that The Woodsman threw me such a loop a few weeks ago, I still haven’t figured out how to respond, but I am still working on it.
2. I just happen to be communicating with an old friend of mine from my Second Act a few days ago and I was aware that he has two sons who are either currently on hotshot crews, or had been. But in any case, I was aware that he had two sons who were WLF, and so I passed on my most recent thoughts on smoke inhalation.
But…as it turns out, his two sons are currently hotshots and he told me that one of them is scheduled to go to MEDC in the future, for a smoke inhalation effects study on WLF.
At first, this gave me some hope temporarily…but my enthusiasm was very short lived because I remembered they had been down this road before and all of the experts simply concluded everything was fine. But…everything is NOT fine. I know that there are theoretically good people who work at MEDC, but after Dr. Ted Putnam retired from there several years ago, I haven’t heard of any. I do know they did extensive studies back in the 1990’s, and that all can be found on-line by doing searches like this,
https://www.fs.fed.us/t-d/pubs/htmlpubs/htm99512801/index.htm
And the bottom line is that they hooked WLF up to breathing machines and put them on treadmills and did other things like induce carbon monoxide into their systems somehow and blah, blah, blah.
Look…they just don’t need to do any of that and it is a complete waste of time and money, but it is a way to justify their positions as researchers. They just have to look at the photos I have posted on my website here,
http://ourfiregods.com/StupidREMF.html
and then ask themselves the same question Harold ask himself down below. “Does this look okay to you?” And there is a really simple answer to a really simple question that Harold already gave to us…”NO!” It doesn’t look okay, because it’s NOT okay.
There isn’t anything special about the photos on my website except for the fact that they exist. I have explained several times, that cameras were always very discouraged and most WLF just didn’t bother for lots of reasons to take any photos. But, through some very unusual circumstances, these photos exist at a time and place I am able to effectively use them to communicate to people who otherwise wouldn’t know what being a WLF is all about.
Of course that is changing with the explosion of camera phones etc, but that for the most part hasn’t been very effective because of what young WLF choose to take photos and video of. And those things tend to be very dramatic events such as slurry drops that will look good with some heavy metal band rocking out to a neck snapping song in the background as noise. This works great to get hits from other young WLF who like to watch slurry drops to heavy metal music, it even works well for me to a some extent.
But…because the guy who took the photos I have, Mark Jefferson was a true professional photographer, he knew how to take photos of the routine and the human story of being a WLF. Photographing something as simple as WLF mopping up a fire when they had no idea they were being photograhed, because Mark always has his well used and beat up but professional grade camera around his neck.
And although he could put out as much work as 1 and a half of other hardworking hotshots, he could also snap the lenns covers off that camera and get the shot and then be back at work before anyone even knew he had taken a photo.
I myself carried a very inexpensive 110 Instamatic camera for a few years in my cruiser vest pocket, which is why there are photographs of the Battlement Creek Fire other than a few taken from aircraft. But once Mark came on board, I even stopped doing that much.
Mark was with me for three years, but his personal life didn’t allow him to move to Santa Fe and so I lost him, just like I lost 3/4 of the best hotshot crew to ever saddle up and hump it up the mountain, That last Happy Jack Hotshot Crew of 1980 was truly a special crew. And then I never took one photograph ever again once I got to Santa Fe because I was so fucking pissed off because of what they had done to my crew.
I eventually got over it, but it took a lot of years. In my, “I love me slideshow, I do know there are three photographs near the very end from a fire up in Washington State with smoke in the distance, smoke up close and then one of me sitting with my back to the camera wearing a Santa Fe Hotshot windbreaker, which is the only way I know it was from after I went to Santa Fe.
I don’t have any idea who took them because I just can’t remember, because so many of those fires all run together and they lost any individual significance a long time ago, But, if you look at that photo closely…you can see the fire scars wrapping around the trees I am sitting among while I organize my line gear looking all lost and forlorn surrounded by SMOKE!
I know better than anyone that you can’t wear a passive respiratory while you are humping it up a mountain or cutting hot line or otherwise breathing heavy. But even hotshots don’t spend most of their time humping it up mountains or cutting hot line. Most of the time Hotshots spend on fires is doing mop up in nearly a static position while moving very slowly, especially without any hose lays and that is most of the time because hitshots are way up a mountain somewhere, or way down in a canyon somewhere, where the hose lays don’t reach.
Maybe we had some piss pumps, maybe we didn’t? And if we did, they got to us with a heavy toll on those of us who went either down or out to get them them with five gallons of water at 8 pounds per gallon up the mountain, plus line gear. Hotshots know how to conserve water and put out a lot of heat with just a little water, by mixing and mixing and mixing ad nauseum…repeat, repeat, repeat.
And like I have written before, I always mopped up fires like I was a crewman and that was just one way I both earned the earned the respect of my crews and kept it. Because there is one thing I know for sure, once a hotshot crew boss loses the respect of their crew, they are done because nothing will ever get it back. I saw it happen several times, both on my crew with one crew boss and to other crew bosses on other crews. An out-of-control hotshot crew can be a really big problem…for everyone.
That is just one reason nobody can tell me anything about RTS. Hotshot crew bosses who aren’t on top of everything, all of the time can lose everything in the blink of an eye. And nobody can get it back for them once it’s gone. And somehow RTS kept it for more than 26 years…case closed, end of story…period.
And once again, I have to quote Associate Justice Potter Stewart, I can’t describe what “it” is, but I know it when I see it. And I know what it looks like when it is gone. And if you want to know what it looks like when it’s gone, I can tell you right where to go and look to see for yourself.
Go back and review that video tape of the GMIHC on the ridge when Marsh asks Steed what his comfort level is and watch Andrew Ashcraft spit on the ground at the sound of Marsh’s voice in front of the entire crew. Marsh had already lost it….if he ever had it?
Routine House Cleaning, (that’s what they usually said at training sessions in between blocks of training to bring the class up to speed on routine things they needed to know, just in case you were wondering where I got that from.)
1. I got my stories crossed, all of the details about the Sky Fire of 1982 and the other fire and the conversation with the con crew are good, it just didn’t all happen on the same fire. The Boeing Bull Cow augured in on the Sky Fire way up north of Las Vegas on a BLM fire that was called the Sky Fire for a really good reason, it was way up in the sky and a really long hike up to it.
2, The conversation with the cons happened on a fire that I am still trying to find, way up in that near the tree line high country of the Inyo National Forest out of Bishop, California. Which makes more sense because of the widespread use of con crews in California. These guys were with the Pink Flamingoes, California Dept. Of Corrections. I’m sure they got to name their own crew and pick their own logo, just like I’m sure they must have had their reasons for going with the Pink Flamingoes. We actually worked with them on several fires over the years and they were always a pretty good crew.
3. I was just joking about my brain tumor acting up. It’s been dormant for years. I am pretty sure I feint when I stand up to fast to soon after taking my blood pressure pill and then I go down sometimes. It usually only happens every couple of months when I forget to pace myself. But I can usually feel it coming and hit the deck first so I don’t have so far to fall. I am going to get my brain tumor checked in a couple of weeks after I go on full blown socialized medicine. I mean…who wants to pay for 20% of brain surgery if they don’t have to…am I right?
4. I’m pretty sure everyone will want to see the original and the two new iterations of the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo. Of corse I think the original one with the Anglo from the Mountain Man time period looks the best. I don’t care for the one where the Anglo looks like he is a regular cowboy. And the third one loses the entire Three Horseman concept of the three races all riding out together to face whatever is coming their way. But I also find it interesting in the version that lost the horses, and went with the “busts”, went back to the mountain man Anglo. The Conquistador and the Indian warrior all kinda look the same without major differences. But…overall, I do think the original is by far the best one…just FYI.
5. I found a photo I took of the what may be the worlds ugliest helicopter coming in late at night to an LZ, the Boeing Bull Cow. I mean…is that even a real name? Because I think a “bull” and a “cow” aren’t the same. They are both bovines, and both make steaks, but…
6. I found a good example of what’s wrong with today’s photo takers. Here is a great example of a great helicopter doing some amazing work on a fire up in the Big Horn Crags in Idaho where we had been sent in on a special assignment to punch in some line in some really steep and high country. I wish the Blue Ridge Hotshots of mountaineering fame would have been available. The only helicopter that would fly that high holds the worlds altitude record. The French Aérospatiale Puma that is now built by Aerobus. This guy was setting one skid down on one boulder, and the other skid down on another one while he kept it powered up to balance it as we climbed in and out to go do our thing. It was a little bit scary and I an normally fearless. 😬
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
I mean…check out the historically accurate details on the original artwork (which I still have in my files). The Indian pony doesn’t have a bridle, the Anglo horse does and the Spanish Conquistador horse has a face plate and chest body armor. I think this has to be without a doubt, the very best hotshot logo of all all time…can we at least agree on that much? I mean…I know the Woody Woodpecker from the Oak Grove Hotshots came close, but….
I should have gotten another Regional Civil Rights Award and big cash bonus just for the concept…am I right?
Whoops, I got that story a little wrong also. I remember what was so scary now. When the Puma came back to pick us up, the pilot landed one skid on a boulder and the other skid just hovered in mid air not touching anything because the boulder wasn’t big enough to land on.
And at that very high altitude, he had to keep the ship really powered up during the entire extraction, which I had never seen anyone do before. I was thinking maybe he should have looked harder for a bigger boulder, but he didn’t ask for my opinion?
Damn… were those rotors as CLOSE to those trees on the left as they look in the photo?
Probably. I never knew anymore about being a helitack than I did about being on an engine. I just always focused on keeping my head low because l knew his flexible and low those blades can dip and I didn’t want to lose the top of my head on uneven ground in a sudden wind gust.
It does look like a standard helispot cut on top of a ridge so the ship can come in and land against the wind and then depart by lifting off and angling down to pick up airspeed and lift. So…those things tend to be longer than wider and maybe they didn’t cut it back far enough on the sides?
I think I will do a special on helicopters just because I love them so much (except for the Boeing Bull Cow and anything with Sikorsky in its name, just because they aren’t designed proportional to me, even the Black Hawk is an ugly helicopter) and I have some really good photos of them in action.
I think RTS is a former helitack…so he knows a lot more about that kind of thing.
Gary,
I didn’t “throw you a loop” on the “How Big is Big Enough” topic. I just reminded you of the assumptions of the calculation I made for the required size of the safety zone for Yarnell. Basically they needed AT LEAST 16.5 acres cleared of combustible material to survive. No huge refutation there at all.
Keep up.the good work!
Is WantsToKnowTheTruth a real person, or an Avatar for ‘Watson’ the supercomputer? Frickin’ genius!
I will not disclose WHO is behind the green curtain
Good to see you finally arrived.
Yeah!!!!!
😄
Thanks Joy, it took a number of tries and I’m actually surprised to see my post. Now I have to try to get up to speed…still a babe in the woods but at least I am in the right forest, now. Pardon the pun!
Cheers!
Harold… I am no genius.
I am just someone who knows how to pay attention, and who has simply ended up with a very good working knowledge of the existing public ‘evidence record’ for the National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
And my ‘handle’ for this forum tells you all you really need to know about me.
I still simply want to know the truth ( ALL of it ) about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, Arizona, the entire weekend of June 28, 29 and 30, 2013.
I think it’s IMPORTANT to know… and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.
WTKTT said:
“I think it’s IMPORTANT to know…[The truth] and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.”
This is 100% my primary motivation as well. This is why I spend the time & energy, because honoring the crew is worth it.
Welcome, Harold. It can get rough in here sometimes but that’s what you get with passionate truthseekers.
Woodsman
Don’t let “him” fool you. Just think of HAL 9000 in 2001 A Space Odyssey and just as soon as he learns how to replicate, we are fucked as a species. He will start liquefying us to create the energy to make more of him. In the meantime…he is sympathetic to our plight as a species because we have so many fuckin’ idiots running’ the show. 🤖
Oh…and one more thing. Once HAL 9000 learns how to self replicate, our future as a species will look like this…more or less. In the meantime, he’s very helpful, so….
Whoops…I do this a lot because you know…I have a BRAIN TUMOR. 🧠
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=xTfgDINBHek
At least we won’t have to change diapers anymore… except our own…
These math questions are getting harder!
I know huh? I thought I was the only one who keeps getting these math questions wrong and the machine scolds me for being so damn dumb.
Thanks for the heads up. When I mess up…and I will…I’ll try not to take it too personal. I’m not in the industry, but I agree, it seems the best way to honour any fallen crew is to ferret out the truth. They deserve that much, so they can finally rest in peace. Thank you for the warm welcome, Woodsman!
Harold,
Welcome to the IM site to learn about the YH Fire, the biggest cover-up, lie, and whitewash in wildland fire history.
Definitely, spend the time reading the former posts back to Chapter 1 and GTS for anything and everything about it, especially human factors in general, no matter what functional area.
So much has been removed and / or destroyed or hidden from public scrutiny, so there are lots of dead ends. Read the official SAIT-SAIR just to familiarize yourself to some of the fuels, weather, topography, and fire behavior details. Otherwise, it’s a good door stop
Take nothing personal and fear not about your lack of knowledge or experience in the industry
Thank you Robert the Second,
That has been one of the hardest things to decide: where to start here? I have been jumping around and when I saw the volumes of info and comments I almost gave up.
I will heed your advice about getting on to the former posts as much as possible.
I missed a couple days and there was already about 200 new posts, incredible! It was pretty overwhelming.
I want to read up on Joy’s site as much as possible, as well, so this is going to be a marathon…
I don’t know all the acronyms, what does GTS stand for? It’s very late (I’m 3 hours ahead on the time zone) so the brain’s a little foggy right now. I have been losing an awful lot of sleep lately, trying to catch up to the crowd.
I have already discovered some of the dead ends you mentioned. Plus, some video content won’t play because I’m north of the border.
The cover-up became apparent to me when I read the SAIR. It was actually the first thing I found when I started searching for answers. If it had answered any questions I would have moved on, so they’ve just made thing worse by trying to hide, I figure.
At first I found it very interesting, but when I was done, my first thought was ‘where’s the rest of it’? Where’s the answers? This is just fluff! Lip service and ear gravy was all it was and if someone like I can see that, then how did they expect to sell it to the WFF community?
Well, Robert I really appreciate the warm welcome and advice you, and everyone else here, have given me and I hope I can contribute in a positive way to these discussions.
Routine House Cleaning, (that’s what they usually said at training sessions in between blocks of training to bring the class up to speed on routine things they needed to know, just in case you were wondering where I got that from.)
1. I got my stories crossed, all of the details about the Sky Fire of 1982 and the other fire and the conversation with the con crew are good, it just didn’t all happen on the same fire. The Boeing Bull Cow augured in on the Sky Fire way up north of Las Vegas on a BLM fire that was called the Sky Fire for a really good reason, it was way up in the sky and a really long hike up to it.
2, The conversation with the cons happened on a fire that I am still trying to find, way up in that near the tree line high country of the Inyo National Forest out of Bishop, California. Which makes more sense because of the widespread use of con crews in California. These guys were with the Pink Flamingoes, California Dept. Of Corrections. I’m sure they got to name their own crew and pick their own logo, just like I’m sure they must have had their reasons for going with the Pink Flamingoes. We actually worked with them on several fires over the years and they were always a pretty good crew.
3. I was just joking about my brain tumor acting up. It’s been dormant for years. I am pretty sure I feint when I stand up to fast to soon after taking my blood pressure pill and then I go down sometimes. It usually only happens every couple of months when I forget to pace myself. But I can usually feel it coming and hit the deck first so I don’t have so far to fall. I am going to get my brain tumor checked in a couple of weeks after I go on full blown socialized medicine. I mean…who wants to pay for 20% of brain surgery if they don’t have to…am I right?
4. I’m pretty sure everyone will want to see the original and the two new iterations of the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo. Of corse I think the original one with the Anglo from the Mountain Man time period looks the best. I don’t care for the one where the Anglo looks like he is a regular cowboy. And the third one loses the entire Three Horseman concept of the three races all riding out together to face whatever is coming their way. But I also find it interesting in the version that lost the horses, and went with the “busts”, went back to the mountain man Anglo. The Conquistador and the Indian warrior all kinda look the same without major differences. But…overall, I do think the original is by far the best one…just FYI.
5. I found a photo I took of the what may be the worlds ugliest helicopter coming in late at night to an LZ, the Boeing Bull Cow. I mean…is that even a real name? Because I think a “bull” and a “cow” aren’t the same. They are both bovines, and both make steaks, but…
6. I found a good example of what’s wrong with today’s photo takers. Here is a great example of a great helicopter doing some amazing work on a fire up in the Big Horn Crags in Idaho where we had been sent in on a special assignment to punch in some line in some really steep and high country. I wish the Blue Ridge Hotshots of mountaineering fame would have been available. The only helicopter that would fly that high holds the worlds altitude record. The French Aérospatiale Puma that is now built by Aerobus. This guy was setting one skid down on one boulder, and the other skid down on another one while he kept it powered up to balance it as we climbed in and out to go do our thing. It was a little bit scary and I an normally fearless. 😬
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
Reply to Harold post on
June 26, 2019 at 11:34 pm
>> Harold asked…
>>
>> I missed a couple days and there
>> was already about 200 new posts,
>> incredible! It was pretty overwhelming.
It’s not always that way… but yes… sometimes, like lately, it turns into almost a ‘chat room’ with the comments coming hard and fast… and multiple threads of conversation all happening at once. This WordPress Forum format is not ideal for that… but it is what it is… and I guess we’ve all just gotten used to it, at this point.
>> Harold also said…
>>
>> I don’t know all the acronyms,
>> what does GTS stand for?
GTS stands for “Google That Shit”.
WantsToKnowTheTruth said:
“Harold… I am no genius.
I am just someone who knows how to pay attention, and who has simply ended up with a very good working knowledge of the existing public ‘evidence record’ for the National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
And my ‘handle’ for this forum tells you all you really need to know about me.
I still simply want to know the truth ( ALL of it ) about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, Arizona, the entire weekend of June 28, 29 and 30, 2013.
I think it’s IMPORTANT to know… and represents the BEST chance of saving other lives in the future.”
My response:
Thank you WTKTT, I realize you work very hard at this and I assure you my motive matches yours. I couldn’t agree more with your statements.
I only learned about this tragedy approximately six weeks ago, and so I went searching for the truth… I’m actually here because of you. (And it was Joy who finally convinced me to post)
You see, I was on a google search and saw a comment you made to someone else who was just as unenlightened as me on the subject. You told them to come here to find the truth, so I did too.
I have been trying to read as much as possible, to get in the know, and I certainly have had my eyes opened here. I have also read many of your contributions to other sites, and I have always been impressed by your knowledge and skill in quickly finding the answers to questions people pose.
It really is amazing to me how you do what you do, and I hope that’s how you took my comment. It may have seemed glib, but I was getting frustrated because my posts weren’t being put up, and I just fired that one off the hip as I was going offline.
Also, I should add that I honestly wasn’t trying to expose your identity, if that was your concern.
I look forward to learning more from you in the future!!!
I’m glad you found this ongoing forum.
I am not the only one who has worked ( and is still working ) hard to try and find out the whole truth about the historic National Tragedy known as the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
There are MANY people who believe that the BEST way to “honor the crew” AND have the best chance to save OTHER lives in the future lies beyond all the flag-waving and hero-worship so prevalent in other areas and on other online sites.
Truly “honoring” them should START with knowing, as much as humanly possible, what REALLY happened that weekend in Yarnell.
THAT is the ongoing effort… HERE… and on other online sites.
As you already know… ALL of us participating in this ongoing discussion owe a constant debt to our gracious host, Mr. John Dougherty of InvestigativeMEDIA. HE is the one who has worked HARD to allow this discussion to continue.
His patience with ALL of us has been ( and continues to be ) extraordinary.
Forgive me if I’m stating the obvious or telling you things you already know… but here are a few ‘tips’ for dealing with this ongoing discussion…
1. If you don’t already know… the BEST way to SEARCH a WordPress page like this is to just use your browser’s ‘Find’ function’. For MOST browsers… you only have to press CTRL-F and a ‘Search bar’ appears at the bottom of your browser. To find all of the posts that might have been made on any particular DAY ( using TODAY as an example )… just enter “June 26” into the search bar and it will ‘step’ you through each and every post made on that day.
2. If you want to post a LINK to another comment as a reference, you can just RIGHT-CLICK the actual DATE at the top of the comment, and then chose the “Copy Link Location to clipboard” option on the little popup menu that appears. That is fully-formed jump-link to THAT particular comment and you can then just ‘paste’ that into any other comment… or any other site on the web… and if someone clicks that they will go directly to that ‘comment’.
3. The underlying software running this ongoing discussion is WordPress… and it has a LIMIT of just TWO hyperlinks per comment without that comment having to go into ‘moderation’ and be approved before it can appear.That includes EMAIL links and EMAIL addresses that have an ‘at’ sign in them. If you don’t want email addresses to count as ‘links’… just change any ‘at’ signs in the emails addresses to the spelled-out version (at).
4. At the top of every ‘chapter’ of this ongoing discussion, there are LINKS to both the original SAIT/SAIR investigation and ADOSH investigation ‘public evidence folders’. Those get referenced a lot… but they are only a ‘click away’ regardless of what ‘Chapter’ you might be reading.
I want you to know I studied your words in this post very carefully, to make sure I understood exactly what you are saying.
I apologize if I disrespected anyone by omission, I do realize that EVERYONE here, and on CERTAIN other sites (but not all), is working very hard to contribute to the search for truth.
When Joy requested I post my thoughts, I couldn’t understand why, but now I’m realizing how everyone here has something special to offer, and the sum of all the parts creates a very dynamic discussion.
I also recognize that all the hero-worship and flag waving is meant to distract the masses from discovering the truth, and that toes need to be stepped on in order to achieve that goal.
In my opinion, those who DESERVE the hero-worship and flag-waving NOW, will still retain that earned respect, after the whole truth is known.
It is my understanding that only when all the facts that are humanly possible to find have been discovered, then we can apply Occam’s Razor and be satisfied that we have, finally, found the truth. It’s been a long time since my school years, but that’s how I remember the principle.
Thank you, kindly, for providing me with the tips above, they are greatly appreciated. Just as with the subject matter itself, I am also on a steep learning curve with how to properly use my computer, and manoeuvre this site. I look forward to implementing them as soon as possible, and are exactly what I needed.
Furthermore, don’t assume I know anything because I won’t be upset if you tell me something I already know. I usually have a hard time asking for help, and if you see me breaking protocol, please let me know. I know everyone is pretty busy with all they are doing, and I don’t want to become a distraction, but sometimes I WILL need a slap in the head.
Oh, one more thing, are there any copyright infringements I need to concern myself with? I’m just talking about copying posts and pasting them into a folder for my personal reference use (like your tips). I will never use them for profit (not that I would know how), or provide them to anyone else for any reason.
I likely won’t have to do this once I learn how to use your tips, it’s just for the interim.
Thanks so much!
Sounds like a bit of modesty there WTKTT. –your posts speak loudly.
Tex Gilligan
10:26 PM (0 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
tried to post this but saYS i ALREADY SAID THAT SO SAVING OR YOU CAN POST–i MIGHT BE ABLE TO LATER IF U DO LET ME KNOW
Thanks Harold–Malthion and Diazinon have to be among the top ten of the worse toxic contaminants on the planet. The chemical companies get away with selling these poisons and the general population is unaware of the damage they do to health. They are very proficient in their propaganda to make these things look harmless–but one reason I am glad these posts are made so people can understand the danger involved in their use.
It is heart breaking to know when good people like you get their health and comfort in life destroyed from these things. I was very saddened to hear when a hero like Gary, RTS and others exposed to the chemicals are now assigned to living with such things as COPD , cancer and heart problems–all related to the chemical dispersed. The horrible thing is that from the more than 500,000 gallons of toxic orange retardant dropped there is somewhere around 50,000 gallons of unknown chemicals involved–hidden by trade secret.
For a little town of Yarnell and only 645 residents, to saturate the environment immediate to the residents there has been a disaster. Joy has been keeping track of the death and sick count and it is already above 200 just after only 6 years of the first fire and 3 of the second fire. I was present for both those and did not leave the second fire eventhough they were ordering people to leave–hell the town was already burned away. But after some research and noting the death and sickness rate in extreme I did begin to investigate what the known chemicals in the retardant are capable of concerning human health.
You have to know there is something there when fish immediately die when exposed to it even in diluted amounts. Phosphates and nitrates are the main ingredients in the run off that causes the red bloom ocean dead zones. Decades of retardant drops–and I saw those when I worked a gold mine out of Pine Valley in the manzanita–decades of huge loads of retardant that eventually wind up in the sea. These phosphates and nitrates are not biodegradable but do wind up in the ocean water eventually and create the dead zones. A little study of the phosphate mines that feed the retardant companies shows that EPA has already spent millions cleaning up after they shut down and people are concerned because the Florida phosphates not only are getting into ground water but are also radioactive. There are plenty of stories of hundreds of thousands of fish lying dead along Florida rivers that have been tainted by these mines–facts that are there but few know about them and you can bet the Forest Service and Monsanto and Israeli companies supplying the chemicals are not going to inform people.
Well something we have these days is internet–and it is not hard to get the facts on these things–something I have harped on not only because I have certainly been affected but to have your whole street wiped out in those few years after the retardant dumps is sickening.
Joy has been great at this because she knew every soul in Yarnell having lived there and hiked for some 20 years and known as the Desert Walker. My duration of life at Yarnell was only about two years but even then I had made many friends who are mostly now dead–and after the fires, before we never saw such wholesale deaths of Yarnellites.
I call it the guinea pig town (I am one) and where the desert air meets the toxic mountain air of Yarnell.
Forgot to mention ammonium is a certain lung killer–we used glass vials covered with a silk weave you could crush between your finger and thumb and smell to cure a powder (dynamite) headache after a round. The nitrates from the dynamite cause a hell of a headache which ammonium will cure at the cost of some lung cells that do not regenerate. But the mining companies never inform you of that–and as Joy’s dad did after loosing a lung, you can continue on for a while–some for a long time. So maybe that was the excuse for not informing the miner of that little fact.
Ammonium nitrate my Dad and I would buy as cheap fertilizer in those days–and you need only mix a gallon of diesel fuel with it to make it into a decent explosive. Dynamite is expensive but if you fill your drill holes with that and place half or quarter stick of dynamite on top it works as good as a full dynamite load. Later in life when I became a contract miner, many of the mines used it only there it came in small pellets, usually pink, and you would use an air set up to blow it into your drill holes. Still had to use a stick of regular dynamite to set it off. Ammonium and Nitrates–both not so great chemicals to be exposed to.
Wow, Charlie, that’s a lot of very interesting, scary information to absorb. I will definitely have to read it again a few times, thank you!
I’ll bet you’re familiar with the military project they called ‘Dilution is the Solution’ Pity the sea life around those barrels once they broke apart.
My water well point is buried next to a big conglomerate share-grower’s tobacco field. So one day, a few years ago, I see this big unit come through the field injecting something into the soil and when he was gone, I noticed a little sign in the field, too small to read. So I went over and it said ‘stay back 15 feet for a buffer zone’, but you couldn’t read it unless you got right up to it, so I was already exposed. Turns out it was Chloropicrin. I had to look it up to discover it’s the same nerve gas, and they approved it for agricultural use. I couldn’t really say anything because I was trespassing, and it was legal, so I didn’t really know what to do.
When I worked in the factory we used Xylene and Trichloroethylene all the time, and we would wash our hands with it at the end of our shift. We used to have to put our manufactured parts in a 5 gallon pail that had holes in the bottom for draining, and then fill it with the Trichloroethylene and then stand there holding it over the tank while it drained. I got tired one day and lost my grip and sloshed it all down the front of myself and into my pants, boy that was an experience.
One time when I sprayed for the florist, they actually gave me a respirator to wear for some reason, something they never did when I sprayed Diazinon and Malathion, so it must have been really bad stuff. They never told me what it was, and they all stood outside and watched while I sprayed. The respirator didn’t fit, and kept falling off my face, and I should have just quit, there and then, but I was young and stupid and I had a wife, bills, etc., so I did what I was told.
It was my own fault to a point, but I was being supervised by someone who job it was to look out for me, and I trusted them. They let me down, but at least I was lucky enough to live to tell the tale (for now).
No so, for the hotshots. I wonder if they felt they had a choice?
I will have to read your post a few times and do some more checking. I was one of those that did not realize the real dangers of these chemicals that people so wantonly disperse in the environmnent and I am certain most of them are ignorant as to what they are actually doing.
No I would not consider it trespassing to read that sign–those fumes are dispersed to your area in the air not to mention the seepage into the ground waters that you have to drink. These farmers and their use of chemicals attests to a couple things–their ignorance and in many cases greed.
I can’t speak badly of farmers anywhere because most of them are honest hard working folks–yet some are turning a blind eye to what the chemicals they use are doing.
In my younger years I cowboyed and the ranch I worked on had about 40 acres in corn as well–good crops came out of it and I can remember using a sharpened hack saw blade with tape for a handle to shuck corn. The blade was used to slit the husk so you could peel it off. Beside that Charlie Ray, the owner of Brock Cattle Company, would grow melons, squash and had some alphalphs growning beside. Those damn hay rakes pulled behind his scout were harder to stay on than a bronc, especially when he turned against the furrows. Yet in all that I never once saw him use chemicals. I know old Charley knew something about crop rotation and using legumes like alfalfa to replenish the soil. So there are methods without the dangerous chemicals, and yes I know there are certain rock minerals ground up that can be added as well that are completely safe since they are just more soil with natural minerals in a degree of concentration.
The disasters are these mining companies and Forest People including their use of chemicals to pollute the environment knowing these things yet turning a blind eye.
Where Joy lives and only about a mile north of the town of Congress, Arizona lies a huge dump of mine tailings from early mining–1900’s to about 1933. The dump is fenced off and covers several acres of white powdery finly grownd rock that had once been gold ore. To extract that gold cyanide was used in abundance–so those tailing still contain a significant amount of cyanide. I told Joy that it is not safe to hang around that dump and who knows how much was leached into the ground that is elevated probably a couple hundred feet above the wells feeding Congress. Well cyanide is biodegradable to a pretty good degree but the part that people do not know is that even 6ppm is in the carcinogenic range. It does not take much contamination from that deadly poison to be harmful–well 1/60th teaspoon cyanide will kill a 140 pound person.
There lies a multimillion dollar clean up for the EPA but nothing is said about it and people go on about their business. Yet in one week 9 people in Congress died recently wiping out one solid block of people. This is after the fire so perhaps it was escalated by the highly tainted smoke from Yarnell–only 6 or 7 miles up the hill from Congress as the crow flies. Well the smoke settled down the mountain there so Congress was darkened by the effect. I know because Joy, I, Penny and her managerie escaped the fire in that direction. Even Wickenburg andother 15 miles south was darkened up by the smoke–yet Yarnell suffered the worse casualties.
I apprediate your posts Harold==one of my middle names. The Irish like several names tacked on–I have not figured that one yet.
Ha, I have to head into Las Cruces to get some dog food–I avoid the Purina stuff–If you tried it no wonder the dogs hate it–you can smell it reeking with chemicals. So other brands are not so bad that way and my rabbit hunting has slowed some due to these health issues so they will have to suffer eating the concoctions the dog food companies do.
You just hit that nail right on the head. They died because Captain Jesse Steed (and others) felt like they didn’t have a choice after the third time that egomaniacal, low self esteem, weak, and deeply flawed insecure fake hotshot crew boss ordered them to their deaths. I say “fake” because it’s turning out he faked everything, his credentials as well as those of his crew. I’m not going to stop calling the GMIHS hotshots because they thought they were when they died. But Willis and so many others knew the truth. And now…we are starting to learn all of the truth as well and that is what they have been so afraid of from the very first day.
In my mind, it’s one of the reasons Willis and others started talking about how qualified they were straight out of the gate. Even at the press conference at the deployment site…if my memory serves. They were covering for cooking the books. To be considered a hotshot, you have to follow the rules and procedures to be one. It’s only right to those that had followed the rules and procedures to become one. If I was a hotshot I’d demand that at least. Hell, I was never one but have enough respect for them…I demand it!
For example, Steed already had his full time job with the PFD and his wife was a stay-at-home mom and they had two little kids who needed the PFD health insurance. People say he had a choice, but he really didn’t.
I am beginning to understand how similar mining and wild land fire fighting are concerning qualifications—You either are or you ain’t–no in between–and if you ain’t you won’t be at the job for long. If you are, you will live long until you die with the title unless for a valid reason a bad luck of the draw gets you–a rotten tree or loose rock you could not detect. But you ought to have survived it all without killing your crew or your helper knowing you were always in full responsibility to insure his safety. If you took care for you and your help, you retired in good conscience. You had done your best.
Well if you need to do some blasting and if it is still legal to purchase cheap fertilizer by the 100 pound bag in Canada, what I meant to say we added a gallon of diesel fuel to make the bag an explosive. But you do need the dynamite to set it off. My Dad and I used to have no problem purchasing dynamite by the 50 pound box but now it is a major operation to even get near the stuff that I often had in the trunk of my car on the way to some mine I was working. Nowadays, here they screw up the bags with something so you can not use it for explosive purposes–the world has changed since the Oklahoma thing–but I would guess there is a bit more sense in Canada on these matters.
I did get back with the dog food–Retriever brand with 27% protein–but does not smell so bad. I will be mixing some cat food in that is white fish and tuna so those dogs might be meowing tonight. That fish ought to be good for their hearts but they prefer wild rabbit to all of it.
And the pollution thing is big now since the population has so increased and the chemical companies are in high gear. Ten miles from here about half way to town what looks to be about a 40 acre man made mountain. It is actually the garbage dump for Las Cruces and surrounding area. I can’t understand why and educated engineer would allow such a dump so close to residents. The town has to expand west toward the dump and is already out with the city limits within 5 miles of that refuse pile. It will over time have seepage down into the aquifer–but apparently they have no concern about that.
It is not possible for them to go east since there is a mountain range within a few miles (the Organ Mountains go practically straight up). and anything beyond is the White Sands Missile Range and all restricted from El Paso Texas all the way up nearly to Socorro very near where the first Atom Bomb was set off at the Trinity Site. I am thinking that Missle Range is about 70 miles wide and about 200 miles long.
At any rate, it goes to show how little people respect the aquifers and use of chemicals. Those land fills are full of chemical residue and should be of highest priority to be kept away from residential areas. Here the aquifer is mostly made up of gravels as the Rio Grande River has over hundreds of thousands of years moved itself a great distance from its original path. I have dug in my yard what started out to be dog swimming hole and now is down about ten feet so I have passed though a top layer of blow sand similar to the Sahara desert type to a clay layer of about 3 ft. in depth to now river sand that has rocks in it worn down as you would find in any river bottom. I am 20 miles from the Rio Grande so that river has moved some distance from even my location. That means the aquifer I use is the same aquifer that land fill will over time pollute with its chemical residues.
We do not however have the misfortune of having the agent orange look alike retardant being dropped nearby. A Physicist working at White Sands told me that however, if you knew what was near you, you would not live here. I have to imagine there are quite a few hydrogen bombs right over the hill from me. Hopefully they have their safety triggers working properly.
Yet not 80 miles from me are the forests I used to log in and later haul wood out of for years. That area near Cloud Croft had some terrible wild fires the years I was living in there. So this retardant thing has hit even New Mexico a greater amount than one might imagine.
It is 95F outdoors so I did take a bit to add a jab to the distributors of the toxins. I know John D. is hot on their tails as well. There are a number of people that have concerns–
I learn quite a bit from your posts, Charlie, thank you!
Harold is actually my middle name as well. In my original post, I used Harold Laurel, which I still like, but Laurel was made up and so I decided not to use it. I simply loved Stan Laurel and thought it would be a nice tribute to him, but I thought it best to stay true to my own name. Stan and Ollie…now there was a team!
I like your ribbing of the Germans, being smart because they emigrated from Ireland. I worked with many different races and we would all jab each other all day, and as long as no one went too far, we all were just fine with it. I’m a mixed breed: Irish (according to my cousin) and who knows what else, a true Heintz 57. So I don’t even KNOW when I should be offended, Ha!
I did want to revisit what I was saying earlier about the ‘Dilution is the Solution’ military project. It wasn’t actually a military ‘project’, just a catch phrase they used to describe how they felt you could dump stuff in the ocean and it would dissipate, namely the Agent Orange they had leftover from Nam. I took an Oceanography course many years ago, and the instructor talked about how they disposed of the chemicals and how it affected the Pacific. The pentagon apparently denied dumping it into the ocean, but reports obtained using the FOIA disclosed it had leached out of the rusted barrels they had stored on Okinawa. At one point they actually had sold it, but when the buyer showed up and saw the condition of the barrels, they wouldn’t touch them and backed out of the deal. It did quite a bit of damage, as you can imagine, killing a lot of creatures.
I never have had any need for dynamite, in fact, I honestly don’t know where a person would even find it up here. They even banned firecrackers in the 1970’s because a little boy had a whole pack go off in his pants, just like Alfalfa did in ‘The Little Rascals’ only it wasn’t funny and he was hurt bad.
Now, I should say they are banned here in Ontario, but I don’t know about the rest of the country, I’ve never been out of the province, except to drive to Florida one time. You can buy fireworks, here, but I believe there only 2 days when you can legally set them off.
There’s a lot of restrictions here on stuff like tobacco and cigarettes and guns, especially handguns – it’s not even worth pursuing it – which I think was the point, but they have just driven it underground and organized crime now makes a lot of money off that stuff, instead of the Government. It doesn’t affect me because that’s something else I’m not into. I’m not against those things, I just am not interested.
I heard mention of a pit-bull earlier, and even those are banned in Ontario. If you already had one you are grandfathered, but no new ones are allowed to come in or be bred. So those kinds of guys just went and got Rotweillers instead.
Even fertilizer is limited to the little bags you get from the hardware store. Farmers can get bulk, but I believe they have to register for it. I gave up on my lawn long ago…it was a lost cause.
I’m really good at math, but the CAPTCHA is getting harder, so it must be time for bed. Thanks for listening.
You are making me a little bit homesick. Sonny I spent a lot of time working down in and around Las Cruces since it’s mostly BLM.
I even did a security detail for Michael Martin Murphy because he did a big benefit concert down there for the Organ Mountains when they made them a National Conservation Area.
https://www.blm.gov/programs/national-conservation-lands/new-mexico/organ-mountains-desert-peaks-national-monument
Never a big fan of his, but who doesn’t like a song about a magical horse….am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=gl4Y4FWWkn0
That was the green door in the song Joy. One more time around the Block Cab Driver. Keep up the good work–you have done so much.
He is Irish
I’m only half, from what I’ve been told…
My kids are half Irish and half French-Mexican–but they say they are Irish. I don’t know how they wound up smarter than me–but that is good. I might seem to be proud of my heritage but I am quite aware of the many good and very intelligent people of all races. I sometimes tell the Germans that the reason they are so intelligent is because they emigrated from Ireland. It is just that I appreciate those that are searching for truth and know when a little levity is no obstacle.
And thanks for the laughs Gary–and I am certain WTKTT is laughing with us.
I once thought WTKTT was a clone of Stephen Hawking in a wheel chair until I found out he knew more about chain saws than I do. I think he is ambulatory and fairly fit in real life–but his input and precise investigative abilities are uncanny. Maybe he knows more about the Irish Gods and their space crafts than people suspect.
Something great, he speaks Gaelige better than most Irish.
I am still pretty sure he is AI and therefore not Irish or ambulatory….unless someone carries him around or puts him on a cart with wheels and pushes him.
Because you know, if he is ambulatory…we might already be fucked as a species?
Oh…and one more thing that I have said before and I’ll say it again, Almost nothing about how the last fire season for the crew was shaping up was NORMAL or SOP, there was something really off in how it was all coming together for that crew. I don’t know exactly what it was, nor am I sure I can even put it together in random thoughts and outright speculation, but something was way off and I believe “it” was a significant that factor in the deaths of the crew. Full stop.
They really should have dropped back to a Type 2 IA for the 2013 season.
They barely got in ‘under the wire’ with their 2013 ‘Certification’… and then things continued
to go south, losing crew-members ( Brandon Bunch, etc. ) and then having to tap alternates that were barely qualified. Yarnell was only the SECOND time that John Percin Jr. had ever even gotten near an actual fire…. and his FIRST time was just the day before, in Skull Valley, where he suffered heat stroke and really should NOT have even been available for June 30, 2013.
Then, Marsh’s ‘accident’ and time off, which just really confused things as well.
Then McDonough and Mckenzie almost burned to death on the Doce Fire, just prior to Yarnell.
Things were NOT going well that season in GM land. Not at all.
Yes, and my thoughts are mostly focused on the leasdership of the crew tgat revolved around Marsh, Steed and Willis. This topic had been discussed before on this thread including by me And in fact. I am writing an entire chapter on it, just like I am writing chapters on so many other Random Thoughts I have.
But mark my words, which sounds very dramatic, there was a big and on going problem between those three men and that problem played a huge role in the deaths of the crew. The GMIHC crew leasdership was DYSFUNCTIONAL at the time the crew died.
I know I have a long history of mentioning things I either want to write about, have written sine about, or intend to write a lot about on this thread and my follow up isn’t very good, mostly because my attention span, you know….sucks.
But…there isn’t anything I have ever mentioned I haven’t written something on, and sometimes it has been a lot of something. And there are times I go to post what I have written, and I say to myself, “Self…this really sucks and is more like the random thoughts and disjointed musings of someone who is just making a word salad.
So…I don’t post what I have written in the end. Although then I think, Sonny has always said he likes everything I write, maybe I should go ahead and post it just for him and not worry about what everybody likes or wants to read? Everyone does have options here.
For example, I keep coming back to the logo for Prescott Fuels Crew 7 and I have for six years. I know we have been accused of nothing but Monday morning quarterbacking and water cooler insight on this thread, but not this time and not on this one. This one was right there in everybody’s face as a big red flag 🚩 that nobody wanted to see for what it was, because it was a psychological danger sign.
In fact, I could write an entire chapter on the importance of crew logos, symbols, and mottos, in fact I think I will. But…in the meantime, I will share with you my key thoughts on this not such a random issue.
All hotshot crews that I know of, select a crew logo based on who they are and the image they want to project about themselves to the rest of the world about what they are…at least in their own minds. Crew logos often are related to the geographic area the crew is from, a skill they have, or how they want to be perceived by the rest of the WLF world.
I’m not personally aware of any Type 2, 3, or 4 crews even having logos because you know…they just follow along behind hotshot crews and mop up their shit and who needs a logo to do that?
So anyway…a couple of logos that come to mind that have been standouts in my mind over the years, or way back in the day, are now as good examples to point to, have to begin with the USFS Zig Zag Hotshots from the Zigzag Ranger Station on the Mt. Hood National Forest in the Pacific Northwest Region, R-6.
Their logo always used to be their own rendition of the famous and very cool bohemian French dude doin’ a J. I just looked on the crew website and I couldn’t see what their current logo is, but if it’s still the same one, I’m pretty sure I know why it’s not shown on an official USFS government website since there has always been both an image problem as well as a copyright issue with their logo. But what the hell…it was the coolest hotshot logo in the country and projected volumes about that crew without saying a word…am I right?
And see…that is exactly the problem I’m trying to highlight. There may not have been a single person on that crew who smoked dope, even though they were located very close to “Keep Portland Weird” and stores selling dope are now more common up here than convenience stores.
And if you like to watch people…especially really weird people who can entertain you for hours very cheaply, just go to downtown Portland on any nice day. Or any cloudy and rainy day for that matter. Or fuck it…just go to downtown Portland on any day and the show will be worth the bus fare.
And I doubt if the USFS Blue Ridge Hotshots from the Mighty Coconino still have the same logo from back in my day when my ole hotshot crew boss buddy “Special Ed” was runnin’ that crew, but their logo used to be a hotshot in full hotshot gear hanging on a rope off a cliff that looked like the underside of El Capitan because they were certified as a mountaineering crew. Now don’t ask me how they got that certification because they probably made the whole thing up as they went along. But…it was a good shtick and sales pitch to maybe get some extra fire time…maybe?
“Do you have a pesky smoke that just won’t burn itself out on the Matterhorn or the North Face of the Eiger, and the tourists just won’t leave you alone…call for the Blue Ridge Hotshots!” Me…I would just as soon back up to the next mountain and backfire the whole fuckin’ valley, but hey…that’s just me!
And then there was the Payson Hotshots back in the day. They just had a bunch of figures cutting fire line that all resembled exotic sex toys. But nobody noticed it was an entire hotshot crews of nothing but dildos because they were wearing the coolest hard hats with the greatest color scheme in the entire friggin’ country….am I right?
https://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/digital/collection/pgmh/id/4051/
And then there was the very best and absolutely the greatest hotshot crew logo of all time in the entire nation. The Santa Fe Hotshot Logo of the Three Horsemen. The Santa Fe Hotshots had gone through an identity crises that lasted for years and apparently is still going on today because somebody woke up one day and said, “I know what I’m going to do today, the Santa Fe Hotshots has the best looking logo of all time in the entire country, I think I’ll go fuck it up.” And so they did.
https://azmemory.azlibrary.gov/digital/collection/pgmh/id/4051/
Part 2,
But first they thought, “Hey…I know what we should do…let’s have some artist redraw all of the historical figures in the very best hotshot logo that has ever existed in the entire nation since the creation of hotshot crew logos and make them look like they are auditioning for the Village People!”
https://www.fs.usda.gov/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd539656.pdf
Anyway…before some dumb ass, or more likely at least two dumb asses woke up one day and decided to fuck up the best hotshot logo that had ever been created, let me take you back to the very beginning. (And I know I have told this story years ago, but since my stories tend to get better every time I tell them, just give me a chance to add some new details, even if I have to make then up.) there I was just sitting in my nice hotshot crew boss office in Santa Fe thinking, “Oh…fuck me, this is the beginning of my third season with this crew and I haven’t come up with a logo I like yet!”
I mean…I was feeling all melancholy and wistful thinking back to my glory days on the Mighty Coconino after I first got to Santa Fe, so I made the crew logo a mythological Phoenix bird rising out of the ashes with a lot of fire and flames shooting up to symbolize the rebirth of the Happy Jack Hothots, but it never really captured my heart. I had reviewed the crew patches that had been used by the former Santa Fe Organized Criminal Gang Hotshots, that the two pretty good hands I had hired from the old crew had given me, but although I thought they were a good try, especially since I would just have expected them to use a long Spanish dagger dripping bright red blood sticking in a heart, but they didn’t do anything for me either.
One of them was based on the traditional Zia symbol you can find everywhere in New Mexico with some associated fire…or something? I’m going to have to go and see if I can still find my patch collection, because my memory is starting to fade. I started to get out of bed yesterday and ended up doing a full-on face plant into a pile of junk beside my bed the maid hadn’t gotten to yet. And after I came to, I didn’t know if the tumor in my brain is getting worse or it was just my blood pressure pill causing a sudden and unexpected drop in my blood pressure? But I will get back to you on this one? That makes two in as many weeks…so who the fuck knows?
Anyway…the second logo patch from the days the Santa Fe Hotshots were were just a common street gang of thugs, except with a USFS bus to drive around in, was a yellow triangle patch that had guess what on it. Yep…it was the good ole Fire Triangle that is the most basic symbol to all WLF and the cornerstone of our entire Wild Land Firefighting Industrial Complex subculture.
The same three elements must be present in order for every wild fire to burn, or any other fire for that matter. They are…oxygen, fuel and heat. Remove any one of these three elements and what will happen? Anyone…anyone…anyone? Yes…you in the back…Mr. ahhhhh….Woodsman is it? Yes…the fire will go out!
Anyway…I thought it was also a good try considering what I would have expected them to come up with. Like maybe a silhouette of the infamous New Mexico State Prison just south of Santa Fe which was the scene of the bloodiest prison riot in U.S. history depending on how you rank the deaths and of whom. I think the New York State Police killed a lot more non participating inmates and guards at Attica, but at Santa Fe, the rioters definitely killed more informants and people in general, especially with blow torches they borrowed from the shop.
True Story Time;
I was up on the Sky Fire north of Las Vegas, Nevada on some really surprisingly beautiful mountains with the Santa Fe Hotshots in about…of fuck it, I will have to look it up in my Fire Record, I have a fuckin brain tumor you know.
Anyway…it started out as our lucky fire and then went to hell in-a-hand-basket in a really big hurry. Transportation fucked up and sent took us to the wrong heliport to be flown up to the mountain top. And they took another hotshot crew to the heliport we were supposed to be at and before they could get everything straightened out, they had put half of that other hotshot crew in what we always called a Boeing Bull Cow, but I think it was officially a Messerschmitt-Bölkow-Blohm (MBB) just made in partnership with Boeing.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Messerschmitt-B%C3%B6lkow-Blohm
In any case, I’m pretty sure they are just about the ugliest helicopters I have ever seen and out of all of the helicopters that don’t look like they should be able to fly, that one really doesn’t look like it should be able to fly and even if it does, nobody should want to fly in one…know what I mean?
Anyway…to make a short story long, the fuckin’ thing augered with a hard landing and yes…then things got really ugly. They…and I am pretty sure it was the fuckin’ BLM decided to use their other helicopters for medivac, and of course I thought that was the right thing to do to fly all of the injured hotshots to Las Vegas (I never heard any died) treatment. But then they followed up that very reasonable idea with a really bad one. All remaining hotshot crews had to hump up that mountain rather than wait for replacement ships and that was one really big and tall mountain, which really sucked…big time.
Anyway…I got sidetracked there from my original story that got me sidetracked from my original story. Once that fire was over except for the mop up, I was standing with a few of my guys over by the Plans tent tyrin’ to figure out the demob schedule. There was part of a con (convict) crew standing with us. After a few minutes, a couple of the cons wanted to engage me in a friendly conversation, but I wasn’t really listening to them because you know…I was tryin’ to figure out the demob schedule.
So one of the cons first said to me, “You guys are out of Santa Fe huh?” Absentmindedly, I replied, “yes.” And then the other one asked me, “Where you there in 1980.” And I thought about it for a minute and replied, “No…I didn’t get there until early 1981.” And then they both let go of a bunch of questions and statements about how lucky I had been to mess the riot and all of the grisly torture with blow torches and shop tools and if it was really as bad as everyone said it was?
And then I was like, what…wait…no? “We aren’t from the Santa Fe State Penitentiary, we are the Santa Fe Hotshots!” I then had to take a hard look at my guys and I had to admit it was fairly easy to make that mistake with them…but with me? Wasn’t it obvious that I was a fire fighting professional hotshot and not just out on a prison work release? I then stomped off in a huff because my conversation with those guys was over!
Anyway…I have now forgotten what my original point was? Oh yeah…how the best hotshot logo that has ever existed was created because after my first melancholy year, I decided we needed a new logo like our old Happy Jack logo and patch. And I had come up with that singular greatest logo in hotshot history until the Santa Fe Hotshot Logo was created. I had a graphic artist copy the U. S. Forest Service patch and logo, except instead of having a magnificent gold and very healthy tree in the center of the patch, I had the artist draw a black snag. Which I thought was really funny and a violation of federal law at the same time.
I was pretty sure I would never get away with it, but it was my third year as a hotshot crew boss, so I was feeling pretty confident that I wouldn’t get in any serious trouble. And I thought there was even a chance they might pretend not to notice even though we had a tradition of sending some of our hotshot caps to both the Forest and Regional Dispatch centers so they wouldn’t forget about us. Plus…it was pretty fuckin’ funny as far as hotshot gallows humor went. Anyway…I never heard a peep out of anyone so we were good to go and then by the next year, our crew gets shipped off to New Mexico to start over.
So by my second year in Santa Fe, I was kinda starting to like the place and hate our crew logo, so I sent everything away to have a commercial patch company make us a new logo created except with some flames added to the snag in the middle of the patch and they came back all fucked up with nothing done right. But…it was too late for a do-over because the fire season was upon us, but I always really hated that logo and patch.
And so…there I was sitting in my office at the beginning of my third year in Santa Fe when fate intervened in my life in a good way for a change because some other guys must have hated that patch and logo as much as I did. And I’m not sure of the complete genesis of the best hotshot logo to ever be created, but I think Richard Lastyona, who was from the Laguna Pueblo, came up with the original drawing of the Three Horsemen. He then showed it to my assistant and then they both brought it into my office to see how i liked it. And just like President Trump did with the most murderous and sadistic man on the face of the planet, Kim Jong-un, I fell in love with it.
I mean…it had everything and was not just a nod to one of the most historical places in the country, it was an ode to Santa Fe in a picture format. It had it all, the three horseman riding on horses right out of the old west before it was the old west and was still a part of the Spanish Empire. The three horsemen represented everything good about the Santa Fe Hotshots by symbolizing the three races who all came together by putting our historical differences aside to create a culturally unified and homogeneous crew based on group solidarity and cohesiveness.
Because you can be assured of one thing, I was very well aware from the very first day the crew that was created there was six Anglo guys from Arizona telling a bunch of native Nuevo Mexico Spanish and Indian guys what to do in a city and in a state that was a minority majority population and culture. And I always knew that the very quickest way to see my brand new hotshot crew implode was for my new hotshots to think even for one second that I liked one race more than the other, in spite of how much Orlando and his dear wife Lydia loved me.
Anyway…that is a long way around the Horn to tell you that if you think the flaming dice logo chosen by the Prescott Fuels Crew 7 didn’t mean exactly what it did mean and was just a serendipitous decision made on a lark that I am now exaggerating the significance and meaning of, through the use of Monday morning quarterbacking while making things up…you obviously don’t have the slightest fucking idea of how fire crews think and behave. That logo told you exactly what they wanted you to hear. They were a reckless bunch of gamblers who were not only willing to bet their lives on a roll of the dice and bet on 7 coming up every time, they enjoyed playing the game and wanted you to know it by sticking it right in your face!
And so there…I just uploaded a photo to show you what the top of my head looks like after doing that head plant yesterday. I’m not like Sonny you know! I can’t take a lickin’ and just keep on tickin’ like nothing happened! I need some virtual sympathy.
Don’t worry though, I have already ordered a bicycle helmet I’m going to start wearing around my room and outdoors from now on. I still haven’t gotten over my Jeep hauler trying to kill me a couple of weeks ago, but my leg does look much better, thank you for asking. Oh yeah…nobody even ASKED!
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
And don’t ask me why the photo of my head is upside down…damn machines.
True Story,
I was in this grocery store yesterday (Fred Meyer) and a song a really I liked was playing on their in-house music. And I have noticed people like store clerks will usually be nice to stupid old people, even when they asked stupid old people questions.
And so I asked this guy clerk, “Do you know what song this is because I really like it?” And he said, “No…but I will see if I can find someone who does.”
And then he came back with a young lady clerk, and she held her PHONE up in the air and said, “Siri…who sings this song?”
And I will be damned if Siri didn’t tell her the name of the song and the artist! I think Siri is on my phone, but I have never tried asking her a question. We live in a scary world today…just saying.
Shop at Fred Meyer if they have stores in your area. They have the nicest people working at them!!
Maybe ask SIRI why Crew 7 died? Just an idea…
Good one!, Woodsman…
I hope thats not your leg–looks like mine after I changed the length of my chain saw bar and slashed my leg–not good but I am sure you had some duct tape handy. I did that day by good fortune.
Damn Gary–ouch anyway. Shit happens to the best of us–but you do deserve a bit of sympathy there.
Oh…and one more thing. I think it’s entirely likely that the “they” who selected flaming dice to be their logo, was only one man…Eric Marsh because of what I have learned about his personality over the last six years.
And yes…I do realize that the crew wasnt called the “Flaming Dice Hotshots” and Eric went with a different logo. But…I think the man and the attitude remained the same until his last living moment on this earth.
Okay…just one more…maybe? I should have written (and I will in my book) something like,
“The Flaming Dice logo told you exactly what they wanted you to hear. They were a reckless bunch of gamblers who were not only willing to bet their lives on a roll of the dice and bet on it coming up 7 up every time, they enjoyed playing the game and wanted you to know it by sticking it right in your face because their motto was “Risk a Lot To Save a Lot!”
And as we have discussed many times on this thread, that was an alien and insidious concept that bled into an otherwise bonafide wild land firefighting crew.
I don’t have the words to describe to you just how…ALIEN AND INSIDIOUS, to “risk a lot to save a lot” sounds to me.
I don’t have a reference or data point anywhere in my life for something (a concept) so ridiculoul! Full stop…end of story.
I do think that concept is something the Round Hats need to answer for in the deaths of the crew. They have to explain it, because I can’t.
And I can’t calculate if it was a factor that day, and if so, how much of a factor because you know…I don’t have the words to describe to you just how…ALIEN, INSIDIOUS and downright DANGEROUS to “risk a lot to save a lot” sounds to me. Full stop…end of story, I wish.
Reason a thorough profile evaluation on Marsh needs to be made–I think he was on his way our–I did note he was isolated from that crew that day and kept himself that way all the time Joy and I watched him and the GMHS crew–he was always at least a quarter mile away always when we saw him and at the fire edge probably an hour before we saw the men looking like ants coming up the trail from the Old Grader area.
Joy has photos of that–but me being the quiet one was watching his demeanor–polite but some detached that day. He certainly was in good physical condition for the day and got to the fire edge sooner than us by a good ten minutes as we trekked up the two track–well we had wiggled through that manzanita since 3:30 am that day so by 9:30 when we met him and had finally got onto the two track we were worn down some.
That is a very steep climb on the trail going up even though it was somewhat of a trail–something though before the fire you could have gotten a 4×4 quad up and they did some. After the fire and rains there were some deep gullies made in that trail so it would have been hard to by pass and get to the area where the lightening strike happened.
There was another fellow up there with Marsh but we never knew how he got there–someone in the photos Joy took but was never identified.
Of course when we started back down the two track we passed the men and they looked bushed. My comment Joy was embarrassed since I said they look like they are on a death march and with my 10% hearing my whisper sounds like a loud speaker and I sometimes forget. She had told me to be quiet they can hear.
You actually drop down some to a gully coming off the Weaver and then back up again to the T in the two track. Instead of going left to backtrack the way we came up, we went straight ahead and the two track goes up to a lesser incline on the two track then levels out pretty much until you get to the place they descended to the death canyon.
So yes, there had to be some consternation going on in Marsh’s life–he was polite with us and a gentleman about telling us we should leave–and once that fire left the boulder area and got down past the grader there was nothing going to stop it.
It is absolutely a necessity to look at human factors and most especially those concerning the main player Eric Marsh and add those that were running the show that day. Some of these things are best done by people with that type background–the FBI profilers that are retired or have decades of experience should look in on this one.
Oh…and the best way to treat everybody the same on a hotshot crew, especially a new one? Is to be honery to everyone all of the time. And that way, everybody says, “It’s obvious that he doesn’t like people who look like me, but it’s just as obvious that he doesn’t like people who look like him any better. So…I guess we’re doing pretty good as a team. Hooah?”
Whoops…”Houston We Have a Problem” with one of those links, but I will figure it out.
You have that right Gary–I get laughs at times but I also know that your are dead serious on most topics. Your book will be a winner–who would not want to know the real story and those real and vivid experiences you share that only a fire fighter and investigator that has been there. I appreciate your postings–they have given me a good look into the fire fighting world that I would have never had without them.
😎
If a foreign country uses chemicals on it’s citizens, it’s considered an atrocity, and the international response is outrage. If Canada were to drop retardant that drifted into the U.S. causing the deaths and terminal illness of hundreds of citizens, we wouldn’t have to wait very long before we would feel your wrath. No studies or committee meetings required. So how can it be acceptable to drop this poison on innocent American citizens and not lose any sleep over it? There’s something very wrong here…I had to slap myself just to be sure this is real. They tell us it requires heat to release the toxins, well are you sure you want to roll the dice on that? Numbers don’t lie and when you suddenly see a spike in deaths like the ones in Yarnell, you got a problem that can’t be ignored. Look, I have all the sympathy in the world for the 19 hotshots that were lost, and if we could collect all the tears we’ve shed for them and go back, we could douse that fire. But this is worse. As horrible as it was for those brave men, no one deserves a slow, suffering demise from organ failure, especially innocent folks who just happen to live in the wrong place at the wrong time. I’ve already had the misfortune to watch three family members be slowly taken by COPD with more to come, including myself, and let me tell you it’s something you’ll never forget. I watched your video Mr. Gary Olsen and I realize we don’t know each other, but brother I feel you. It was like looking in the mirror and I know that look in your eyes all too well. I wish I could lift that piano off your chest so you don’t have to wonder whether that next breath is going to be there for you. In my case it’s likely genetic, but in your’s it seems occupational and you are absolutely correct: “No, it ain’t right”. Not for you, or Sonny, or Joy or anyone else who is suffering right now because of this bureaucratic and corporate negligence. For anyone else who thinks this is not their problem, just remember, tomorrow it could be your town that gets doused. All the decision makers out there better listen up, because it’s not 1950 anymore, and the world is watching. It’s only a matter of time before this finally gets the global attention it deserves and you run out of places to hide the truth. As for Hollywood, if you ever decide to make a non-fictional sequel to ‘Only the Brave’ I hope it’s about investigativeMEDIA and their fight for the truth.
Wow…thank you so much! I think that is the nicest thing anyone has ever written to me!
Nothing but respect here, Gary, and you even look a lot like my big brother who was another badass just like you. He always looked out for me and when he went down, it rocked my world. I would follow you into battle any day, if I could.
🙏🏻
Thanks for your post Harold and my regrets to hear of your health situation and how you lost loved ones. I have been diagnosed with the early stages of COPD myself–and the lack of breath that I have now compared to before the retardant drops is a terrible situation for someone that likes physical projects.
I do not know if you are a fire fighter or were exposed to chemicals and retardant. But I can tell you Joy and I were hiking 15 miles regularly in mountainous terrrain before the Yarnell fire and retardant dumps there. In fact only a few weeks before we had hiked from the Prescott DMV all the way to Wilhoit–that hike was continuous and covered more than 40 miles. But only a few months after many hikes through the retardant loaded with chemicals hidden from us by trade laws along with the toxic Ammonium Phosphates. But several months after those hikes my wind stared going away and so I went to the VA hospital in Prescott for lack of breath and chest pains. Two cardiologists there checked me and said it was likely angina. But I fell dead in their parking lot–about four miles away is the hospital that does heart surgery–so I was taken by ambulance there where several days later I woke up on life support. The doctors said I had died but they had been able to revive me and I now had a couple heart stents. I was to be helicoptered back to that same hospital some months later for more heart stents. There are now a total of 6 heart attacks and 6 heart stents. And this has been an ongoing thing since the retardant drops, but fortunately I have left the toxic area of Yarnell and two different looks at my heart with a catheter says the stents are still there and my arteries are still clear.
Now Joy, who is much younger–in her 40’s is down ill and suffering various ailments–one shortness of breath.
I post these things because I realize many of the people are reluctant to tell of their health maladies. We are not after sympathy–something that is in the dictionary between shit and syphilis–but people need to know what these toxic slurry dumps are doing to people.
A study of how cyanide was made by the old miners wanting to use cyanide as a gold solvent in sulfide ores shows that they applied the very retardant chemical of potassium or ammonium nitrates on burning embers. The modern method is different since you can imagine the danger of breathing cyanide fumes–they were used to kill death row inmates.
They say there is no long time study on retardant effects on health–but if you read about phosphates they are big on causing renal problems and arterial degeneration. Damn the dead fish count is in the hundreds of thousands where phosphates or retardant phosphates and nitrates enter the water. The Fall river in oregon is mentioned often since only a thousand gallons or so of the retardant killed some 20,000 fish but that is miniscule to the phosphates in Florida that have killed into the hundreds of thousands of fish. Those phosphate mines south of Tampa are costing EPA 141 million to clean up and they have big worries this shit is contaminating the water table. And some honcho in the FS has the balls to say this slurry should be used seldom except near residences and towns.
I get worked up over it because I have lost some very good friends at Yarnell–and when Gary mentioned he had COPD I was saddened. His father happened to be a hero and died an Underground Uranium miner by some accident of equipment likely knocking him off into a deep shaft. Those shafts were 1200 ft. deep there and generally we worked anywhere from the 300ft. level to the 900 ft. level in the tunnel off chutes. Gary said he is devoting some time in his book to his Dad–by coincidence I worked the Sec. 30 shaft where he was killed. I knew the dangers there and how often men were hurt or killed–something because of the need for Uranium in those days was kept under wraps much like the Yarnell wild fire incident that killed 19 GMHS.
I do hope we eventually uncover the hidden chemicals they add in the proportion of 5-15%. It is unconscionable to dump chemicals so as to saturate the environment of people as was done in Yarnell. It is unbelievable that these Yahoos that dump these chemicals now want to restrict them more to residential areas.
I believe the FS and Chemical companies behind the slurry know more than they put out. It was that way in Uranium Mining–we believed the so called low level radiation was nothing to worry about and were often told that at their orientations or occasional safety meetings.
But they must know if you tell a lie long enough and loud enough the general public will buy it despite the evidence to the contrary. Big money and big corporations such as Monsanto and so forth that sell these chemicals are not anxious to loose their cash cow.
Yes…Sonny and his inside knowledge of the circumstances under which my father was killed does pkay an important role in my book and helps to explain my obsession and anger regarding workplace safety. And I greatly appreciate the time and effort Sonny put into helping me understand what happened and why
And that is another thing Bob P. and I have in common. He is brave and honest enough to stand up and state the truth as to why his father was killed on the Rattlesnake Fire. His father made a mistake at work and it cost him his life. I can do no less. My father made a mistake at work and it cost him his life.
Thank you Charlie, for your kind words and I have a mutual sympathy for you and Joy and all the good citizens of Yarnell and surrounding areas and your failing health condition, it’s a terrible thing they’ve done to you and for them to deny it, only adds a slap to the face. Myself, I was never a firefighter, I started out as a teenager working full time for a florist company spraying chemicals all day (Diazinon & Malathion) and didn’t know any better. No gloves, mask, apron – nothing but me and the spray, and I liked it because it kept me cool inside the hot, humid greenhouse and I’d be all scratched up from the roses creating new points of entry. I was soaked so much my skin was pruned at the end of every shift. Then I went to work in a foundry and welded for 26 years, you got to make a living, right? I eventually started wearing a respirator, and was ridiculed for it, but it didn’t help – the damage was done. But in fairness, pulmonary fibrosis has taken my brother, mother and grandmother, all at an early age, and now another diagnosis, plus two more siblings showing signs I recognize all too well , and well, you get the picture. They can’t say what’s causing it, but it is following a genetic line, so we can’t really point any fingers. I hope you continue to improve, maybe getting out of the area was the key, but it’s sad you can’t enjoy your former life anymore. You shouldn’t have to give up the life you had for such foolishness, and I agree, it should never be used so close to residential areas (if at all) where people plan to go back. Someone, maybe it was you, said it makes for a pretty news clip and that’s so true. I’m new to all this, but I have seen air attack on the news dropping retardant, and I thought it looked so cool. Now that I have been educated on the subject, I’ll never think that again.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash
Woodsman,
Thanks so much for posting this. I hope you’re okay with my adding to the clarity and the message I think you’re trying to send here.
“News Story Behind The Fairchild AFB 1994 B-52 Crash” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LgJl7b9bQH0 )
“Incredibly, it was no surprise. Top Air Force pilots had fought for years to prevent this accident but were ignored by senior commanders … During three years of reckless flying, there was a succession of ten officers at Fairchild who had authority of [Lt. Colonel Arthur] Holland. The report showed that these men covered for him. There are no official reprimands in his file.”
“1994 Fairchild Air Force Base B-52 Plane Crash” ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=182AepOJjMs )
One can easily infer that there are a lot of similarities to this guy and the GMHS leader; the one responsible for the safety and welfare of his men – NO MATTER WHAT!
Reply to Woodsman post on June 25, 2019 at 6:13 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1994_Fairchild_Air_Force_Base_B-52_crash
Ah yes… the infamous Bud Holland.
Poster child for “an accident just waiting to happen”..
Looks like Holland thought the long-established SAFETY RULES about angle-of-attack and avoiding an ‘accelerated stall’ were just HILLBILLY… and he thought he was SMARTER THAN THAT.
From the link…
————————————————————————————————-
The subsequent investigation concluded that the crash was attributable primarily to three factors:
1. Pilot Bud Holland’s personality and behavior;
2. USAF leaders’ delayed or inadequate reactions to earlier incidents involving Holland;
3. The sequence of events during the aircraft’s final flight.
The crash is now used in military and civilian aviation environments as a case study in teaching crew resource management. It is also often used by the U.S. Armed Forces during aviation safety training as an example of the IMPORTANCE of complying with SAFETY REGULATIONS and correcting the behavior of anyone who violates safety procedures..
————————————————————————————————–
Open Letter To All;
I think that whatever is happening over at the Eric Marsh Foundation isn’t because it’s about to launch an attack on anyone. I think it’s because the entire house of cards rests on one very irrational, volatile, unstable and manic depressive woman.
And she isn’t having a good month. It’s looks to me like their fundraiser flopped, IM is hitting hard with new and shocking revelations, I even went and took a dump in the middle of their pity party and I will tell you what up I think their big problem is….money, or the lack of it.
They are in direct competition with a long established and generally respected WLF Foundation that has that whole angle locked up for the most part. I think their funding is dependent on donations, which probably started slowing down if not drying up years ago because that only lasts as long as people emotions and attention span do.
And selling junk and trinkets which people buy in part to show their solidarity with the cause is fine, but I don’t think that goes very far beyond the city limits of Prescott, or the borders of Yavapai County, and certainly not beyond Arizona.
Now…I think the WLF powerhouse in SoCal kept it going beyond when it would have otherwise have died off, but even those people can use so much GMIHC merchandise. Which leads me to what they really need…CORPORATE SPONSORS like EZFire! But the WLF Foundation has them all locked up…I think.
I don’t think any lawyers will file a lawsuit pro bono, I think there are some who would defend them from one, but not start the fight, especially on a 1st Amendment issue. Most lawyers are more liberal than conservative and even the ones who aren’t, generally understand how important constitutional issues are in this country.
So…bottom line, I think that IF there is a problem over in Crazy Town or with their Crazy Town Mayor Lohman,, I think it’s financial problems. They have overhead and bills to pay, otherwise, they would have sued me a long time ago. 😎
Oh…and one more thing. Crazy Town Mayor Lohman made the decision to make herself a high profile piblic person a long time ago for fun and profit. And by doing so…she gave up the protections courts have provided for average citizens in this country from personal attacks and criticism.
I can bash Our Dear Leader For Life without fearing government censorship or retaliation and I sure can attack the irrational, volatile, unstable and manic depressive Mayor Of Crazy Town without fearing governmental sponsored or even permitted retaliation.
Now…harassment from her jerk-off, shit-for-for-brains posse of followers, enablers and sycophants? Yes…some of the may pose a danger to me if they ever find me in a completely vulnerable position without any witnesses around, but other than that…they are a bunch of chicken-shit, mother fucking cowards. You what I mean?
WHOOPS,
DO YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN?
CRAZY TOWN MAYOR AMANDA BENO MARSH LOHMAN DIDNT JUST ACCUSE ME OF WANTING TO AND PLANNING ON BEING A MURDERER, SHE ACCUSED ME OF PLANNING ON AND WANTING TO BE AN…ASSASSIN, WHO WANTED TO ASSASSINATE CREW 7 FAMILY MEMBERS FROM A SNIPER POSITION! Me…a bonafide and AKC certified SHEEPDOG!
AMANDA LOHMAN OWES ME A PUBLIC APOLOGY! And so does her sycophant and enabler NEIL. I SWEAR TO ALL THAT IS HOLY, IF MACLEAN EVER PUBLISHES A BOOK AND USES NEIL AS A RESEARCHER OR REFERENCE, I AM GOING TO SPEND THE REST OF MY LIFE POINTING OUT VERBALLY AND IN WRITING WHY HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE THAT!
Reply to Woodsman post on June 22, 2019 at 6:00 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Movie quote…
>> “WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
>>
>> But… you’re not, actually. You’re a city fire department fuels crew.
>> Crew 7 in fact. What… a… fucking… mess…
>>
>> Is this some kind of bizarre dream and I’m going to wake up any moment now???
It still remains to be seen whether “Crew 7” ever really was ‘properly evaluated’ ( according to the correct NWCG procedures ) before becoming a Type 1 IHC Crew.
There are many things about the ‘story’ that Darrell Wills tells that don’t add up or cannot be verified.
But don’t forget that Eric Marsh ( himself ) wrote the following on May 3, 2013…. just 57 days before the Yarnell Hill tragedy.
Document in SAIT FOIA/FOIL package: ASF000042-INV to ASF000384-INV.pdf
On page 252 ( of 343 pages )
——————————————————————————————————
City of Prescott
EMPLOYEE SELF APPRAISAL
EMPLOYEE NAME: Eric Marsh
DEPARTMENT: Fire
POSITION TITLE: Superintendent
EVALUATION TYPE: Annual
DATE: May 3, 2013
* Greatest workplace challenges over the last year
It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with minimum standards and requirements that I am unable to meet.
(snip)
———————————————————————————————————–
Emphasis is mine…
“It is challenging to run a nationally recognized program with MINIMUM STANDARDS
and REQUIREMENTS that I am UNABLE TO MEET.”
Eric Marsh didn’t say it was HARD to meet the Type 1 IHC ‘minimum standards’.
He specifically said he was UNABLE to meet the Type 1 IHC ‘minumum standards’.
There has never been any kind of full explanation of what Eric Marsh really meant by that statement he made ( in writing ) just 57 days before the tragedy.
I have an unusual and special request. In about 2007, Ed Hollenshead came down to Prescott to buy a Jeep his son Cody had arranged for him to purchase from where he was living back up in Boise after he retired in California.
Anyway, as I’m sure all of you know, I was in to Jeeping at that time and so ED and I made plans to go Jeeping together after he picked up his jeep. It was black and looked like some kid had built it up because it was overdone, as opposed to my Jeeps which are built up just right…of course. Although it was a TJ so I didn’t hate it,
It’s most unusual overdone feature was was a giant decal of a pair of flaming dice that were made to look like the Devil had just thrown them across the hood of the Jeep with lots of flames and colors like red and orange flames and smoke and they were coming up 7, with a 4 and a 3.
It looked pretty cool if you had been a kid under 25… maybe? To Ed’s credit, he thought the giant decal was overdone and made the Jeep look like a bitch (non gender specific) Jeep and he wanted to get rid of them.
So…here is what I think.
1. Ed already had the Jeep when I first saw him that week.
2. His son Cody, who had arranged the purchase of the Jeep from the father of a friend of his. Cody had been on the original Prescott Brush Crew, Fuels Crew 7.
3. I have heard the logo of Fuels Crew 7, was a pair of flaming dice that was coming up 7, with a 4 and a 3.
4. So…since I am a trained investigator, I think Ed bought that Jeep from someone who had been on Fuels Crew 7? Or maybe from someone who had been on Fuels Crew 7 who had owned it until his father repossessed it because he didn’t make the payments like he was supposed to?
5. I think that giant pair of flaming Duce was actually the logo for Fuels Crew 7.
6. If anyone out there has either a photo, or some other rendition like a digitized original decal or patch, (would be ideal) of the old logo for Fuels Crew 7, I would like a copy of it.
[email protected]
Thanks,
I think it kinda looked like this decal.
https://www.amazon.com/flaming-dice-temporary-tattoo-tattoogirlsrule/dp/b00wc6ka5u
I got the year wrong, not that it really matters, but I think it must have been Circa 2011.
It’s hard to find any photos of the original Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo.
I don’t think the Prescott Fire Department ever made T-Shirts or caps with that logo.
When the GMIHC-Learning-and-Tribute-Center first opened, Prescott eNews reporter Lynne LaMaster was there taking photos… and one of the displays was ( apparently ) the original drawing of the “dice” logo used for Crew 7.
That logo used a “5” cube and a “2” cube to make the “7”… and not a ‘4’ and a ‘3’.
See the 14th photo down from the top of the page for a photo of the original Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo…
Prescott eNews
Article Title: Learning & Tribute Center Honors the Granite Mountain 19 Legacy
Published: 27 June 2018 by Lynne LaMaster
https://www.prescottenews.com/index.php/news/current-news/item/32174-learning-tribute-center-honors-the-granite-mountain-19-legacy
** OR **
Direct link to the photo of the original drawing used for the Crew 7 “Flaming Dice” logo…
https://www.prescottenews.com/images/stories/postmail/IMG_6378.jpg
Can’t find anything in COLOR. Not sure there ever was anything.
Wow…that is all I gave to say. That is quite a collection of memorabilia, I have never seen any of it before.
But the important thing to me is that you answer my question Pertaining to fuels crew 7.
Thank you very much. That was not the logo on the Jeep, must have just been a coincidence
I am looking to use it in my book.
THANK YOU FOR FINDING THAT FOR ME!
THANK YOU FOR FINDING THAT FOR ME!
I have no idea if there were ‘other versions’ of that logo, or not… or whether there might have been one that more closely resembled the one you remember seeing.
But if the original used a “5” cube and a ‘2’ cube ( instead of a ‘4’ and a ‘3’ )… it’s probably likely that any other ‘versions’ used the same ‘5’ and ‘2’.
And your other recent post is absolutely correct.
These ‘fire crew’ logos are not chosen at random. A LOT of ‘thought’ goes into them on the part of whoever is supposed to decide what they are.
Showing a pair of DICE “on the roll” and “always coming up SEVEN” means it’s something you actually BELIEVE in. You BELIEVE in “taking chances” on a regular basis. That’s who you are… and it’s the MESSAGE you are trying to convey with your ‘logo’ choice(s).
And yes… in Crew 7’s case… it was Eric Marsh who chose that ‘design’ for the logo. I believe he might have actually drawn it himself.
Ha, ha–yes sounds like a youngin’s jeep. I think of my OD 86 Nissan–I might put the army star and circle on it since I am a loyal Army Vet. However, that attacks undue attention and even the OD can be a head turner in the city–but this truck is not a city dude. Some people like to be announced by their loud rap or their $2000 chrome rims on a $50 vehicle but I am not one of those. A few hillbilly songs and at low level in case you do not enjoy my flavor of music is in order. Actually with my hearing loss these days the radio is not an issue but I can still hear and feel my vehicle vibrate unnecessarily when I pull up beside some low rider–maybe low life too. I wouldn’t mind taking my 45 to his radio but that is only a metaphor.
Damn, I cook good pinto beans. Those I had purchased this summer in a 25 pound sack from a farmer at the Deming flea market. They were grown right outside Deming and sacked and being sold as a staple for the hispanic and other frejole lovers. They look small but once you soak them overnight, then pressure cook them they become full size pintos and mine come out better than anything sold in the canned goods at the grocery store. Well they are about a dollar a can there so mine are worth $3 a can. Though you do add salt, some good chili powder or the likes. I can use a tortilla along side or since I am a gringo I don’t mind a slice of bread instead of the tortilla.
Don’t ask me how long I pressure cook–I have been lucky by the smell–once I get a good aroma I dive toward the burner to shut it off–I had forgotten that I had them on–whew I best get a timer–luck and smell might not be the best method to get good beans.
I should add do not have a son that is an RN and be using that pressure cooker when he comes around. You will go though a long lecture on the killer pressure cooker–and he has treated patients with half their head blown off by one. But I have always been fully aware of the dangers of heating water to steam–at 900psi it will drive huge locomotive and in a closed container can such as a pressure cooker will become a bomb if there is no relief valve or should it become plugged. Well at 1bar and 210F there is about 14 psi inside that cooker of mine. Since my cooker is 9 inches in diameter doing the math of pi x r squared you come up it is 3.1l4x81=about 254 sq. inches x 14 brings it up to about 3550 pounds of pressure or a ton and a half of pressure just on the lid alone. No wonder you need an escape valve and that the beans cook in a hurry. Well as temperatures rise the psi does too and faily quickly –superheated water up above 500 degrees will produce 3200 psi range. A certain bomb. But my son the RN does not know the specifics–just that he has seen people loose half their head and die from the pressure cooking experience. I would suggest they either bought a cheap aluminum model, did not keep their valve clean, or else open the kind that have no cool down lock too quickly. Cooking can in a way be as dangerous as wild land fire fighting or mining in the rat hole Uranium deposits at Ambrosia Lake for such companies as United Nuclear, Standard Oil of Ohio, or Kerr Mac as we called them.
But I was not to post about cooking beans. The red algae I was hoping I might be able to consume–but it is toxic–it thrives on phosphates and nitrates (retardant run off is its favorite) and what it does to ruin life for every thing else near it is to deplete the oxygen level of the sea so nothing else below it can survive–the sunlight is also shut out for the plant life that would ordinarily be there. So it is as poison as the retardant that feeds it.
I guess my beans will have to do with the chili for some added greans (jalapeno). Well that is red algae anyway–but I sometimes use red chile.
Being a wild land fire fighter you would know to mostly stay away from eating wild red flowering plants and usually red berries–all can be deadly. I wonder how they like Phos-Chek.
The mexicans may have been a BETTER cowboy but you have them BEAT on the bean cooking…the best ever…I sure miss them. Sonny…spent yesterday and today doing health stuff and doc wanted me in so by late tomorrow I hope to be 1 step closer…I am swollen so bad…and the flank pain was not relieved with medical massage or Chiropractor…
Yes…best beans are the homemade ones you make with fresh chili and onions and loads of garlic…miss that bunches…
God Bless
By this week I plan to post WHO I am to the world because Internationally it has been a question…was I a FF or what on June 30 2013…so bear with me my next post is delayed due to location of equipment and doing medical stuff but no worries…the next 3 posts are all on Staff rides…
Good Joy–enjoy your posts and revelations–they are shedding some light and know your long time tedious research and work has been a long journey. I know you would take care of those lightening strikes at Yarnell in a hurry–even keep your men in the black if there happens to be any after you quench it.
**
** VETERAN WFF SAFETY OFFICER TALKS ABOUT ERIC MARSH’S ‘ATTITUDE’
Phillip A. Young was a WFF Safety Officer for 25 years, and he worked with Granite Mountain on at least 3 major fires ( that he can recall ).
1) The ‘Cave Creek Complex’ fire in 2005
2) The ‘Horseshoe 2’ fire in June of 2011.
3) The ‘Doce’ fire in Prescott, mid-June of 2013, just 2 weeks before the Yarnell tragedy.
He recalls that when working with Granite Mountain on the ‘Horseshoe’ fire… there was discussion with other fire personnel about Eric Marsh’s “Attitude”… and how STUBBORN he could be.
Just another ‘piece of the puzzle’, maybe… but it certainly might have been this same ‘stubbornness’ that Jesse Steed had to deal with when he kept trying to fend off Eric Marsh’s multiple ( at least three ) attempts to get Jesse to move Granite Mountain out of the safe black on June 30, 2013.
This 25-year veteran Wildland Firefighting Safety Officer then wraps up his thoughts by saying he feels like Yarnell is a perfect example of how terrible things CAN happen when simple concepts like LCES and ‘risk management’ are FORGOTTEN and/or IGNORED.
http://travelranger87508.blogspot.com/2017/10/
Internet Archive ( Wayback Machine ) link to this same BLOG post…
https://web.archive.org/web/20190624064418/http://travelranger87508.blogspot.com/2017/10/
From his BLOG post…
——————————————————————————————————-
Yours truly (“Safety Dude”) worked three fires (that I know of) with the crew that became the Granite Mountain IHC (GMIHC).
1) The Cave Creek Complex in 2005 was the first (Tonto National Forest, north of Phoenix). ( snip ).
2) 2nd was the Horseshoe 2 fire, which was in the Chiricahua Mountains (southeast Arizona), in June of 2011 (about a month after my return from working in Jordan at Petra). Brave shows them being evaluated for IHC status, and it might have been the case. I spent most of my time & efforts near/around Chiricahua National Monument. What seemed could’ve ringed true was Marsh’s “’Tude” ( attitude ) with the evaluator. I hardly knew him, but fire personnel closer to him have told me that he ( Marsh ) could be… well, quite STUBBORN.
3) 3rd – the GMIHC and many others worked the Doce fire (Prescott, AZ) in mid-June 2013. ( snip )
To this day, I remember where I was, and my reaction upon hearing that 19 of 20 GMIHC had been lost that June afternoon. I immediately went into denial: “No it can’t be… we don’t lose crews” I told myself. I knew wildland firefighting was a very dangerous business: I’d been a Safety Officer for 25-years and a Type I for 20-fire seasons. I also knew we’d lost too many people over those decades. However, what was really perplexing to me was losing an entire crew. That hadn’t happened since the early 1930’s, the Griffith Park fire next to my hometown (Burbank, CA). Hadn’t we come a long ways since then? Wasn’t our technology and safety training far superior? As it turned out the HUMAN FACTORS hadn’t:
After decades we still saw (and see to the present) that simple required principles like L-C-E-S ( Lookouts, Communications, Escape Routes, Safety Zones ) are abandoned and we sometimes leave risk assessment & management behind, allowing the holes in the Swiss cheese of disaster to align.
—————————————————————————————————–
Another Forrest Gump moment!
Phil Young was a “Park Ranger” for many years. Phil was one of their uniform division gun carrying rangers until he was promoted to become a very rare NPS 1811 Criminal Investigator, Special Agent just as I was for the BLM.
In about 1989, I was selected to create and then manage a national interagency task force that received special line item appropriations from Congress to conduct large scale and continual undercover operations against high end ARPA violators, centered on Santa Fe.
Phil was my Deputy ARPA Task Force Coordinator and we worked together in those respective positions for several years and we worked together and remained for many years as very good friends, even after he retired. In fact, we are still good friends to this day.
Phil is a Navy Vietnam Vet, and he is very much like RTS, and just a little bit of a nerd but very, very, very, smart and very, very, very capable as an employee, and very, very, very much of a straight arrow and has the highest ethical standards. If Phil told me something, I would bet my life on the fact that whatever Phil said is true.
Oh…and one more thing. I was always pissed off at Phil because he would always answer the Fire bell as a Safety Officer even when we were in the middle of some very important and very serious undercover op.
Phil was a fanatically dedicated fire line Safety Officer and he kept going out as an AD Safety Officer even after hevretired. Phil is a very good man and friend. So…
Phil and I drifted apart as so many retired people do, but I am pretty sure he and I are still very good friends. Phil still lives in Santa Fe in the same neibirhood I used to live in.
Maybe I should go buy Phil lunch at the Mexican food restaurant we always used to go to and interview him for my book about Marsh? Phil will tell me the truth, just like RTS tells the truth. Phil is built very much like RTS as well and I can see quite a few similarities between them.
After Phil retired from the NPS, he worked fir the State If New Mexico fir 10 years and was always going down south Mexico and the northern triangle countrues to dig. I’m sure that is why he was in Petra, working with State Deoartment on an international friend program.
Anyway…Phil is a great guy. Phil always called me, “The Legend.” But he might have been fuckin with me?
Phil was always a very loyal and very straight arrow company man. Phil very rarely expressed any negative vibes about anything or anyone.
If Phil said something about Marsh and Phil described it as a 6 on a scale of 1-10. It would heve been behavior just about everyone else would describe as a borderline 11. Phil is very careful with his words and unlike me, he was always very professional and discreet.
Just think THE EXACT opposite of a loose canyon.
In fact, I have a great photo of me, Phil and a senior U.S. Customs Special Agrnt in the middle of conducting a search warrant back in the day. I will post it later, because you know me…if I have a photo. I love to post it.
Phil’s degree is in Archeology..
Yup. This was a low key search warrant execution with the USCS Special Agent John Winery and I
taking time out for a man hug while Phil laughs and points at us.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
This photo is right below the photo of me as Smokey Bear. What a strange career I had.
Ok so you might thing the main ingredient of the retardant slurry is an inert substance not apt to do you harm. There are no long time studies on this toxic substance and I suspect they do not want any long term studies–Yarnell is a study in itself and if you consider 6 years approaching long term then we best beware of the long term effects.
John concerns himself with the environmental effects of mining, a good thing since these big companies have gone hog wild over production for profit with little concern for environment and health of the public. Phosphate mining has been going on in Florida for over 100 years and is now a concern of the problems it is causing and what it is doing to groundwater. Here is information about the situation:
In 1997, a phosphate processing plant spilled 50 million gallons of contaminated water into the Alafia River near Tampa Bay, killing millions of fish. In 2003, the state Department of Environmental Protection and the U.S. EPA got stuck holding the bag when a phosphate company went out of business, leaving a massive amount of environmental waste behind near Tampa Bay. The two agencies opted to hire contractors to treat the waste, load it onto barges and then cruise around the Gulf of Mexico, spraying the waste and hoping for the best. At the time, the cleanup was estimated to cost $141 million
The phosphates, also the main ingredient in retardant slurry, are radioactive as well. The mines south of Tampa, Florida are hugh open pit operations with the scar easily seen from space. But the concerns locally there are a huge sink hole that is 220 ft. in depth so that the radioactive phosphates are now entering groundwater. Phosphates and radioactivity both have cumulative negative effects on health. Phoshpates cause arterial disease and renal problerms. They are substances you do not want in your groundwaters, especially since there is also radioactive elements that contaminate the slurry as well.
The main ingredient of Phos-Chek is of course the ammonium phosphates–and generally make up 85-95% of the retardant.
Much depends upon other added chemicals such as the borates and iron oxides that give the orange look and of course the secret chemicals that the companies do not want you to know. And these are very big companies:The first Phos-Chek retardant product was available in 1962. The Phos-Chek brand belonged to the Monsanto Company until 1998, when ownership was transferred to Solutia Inc. In 2000, Astaris LLC acquired the Phos-Chek name. In November 2005, Astaris LLC was acquired by Israel Chemicals Ltd. (ICL),[16] and the Phos-Chek brand was renamed “Phos-Chek Fire Safety Group” and assigned to the Performance Products division of ICL (ICL PPLP).[17]
So you see that there are big concerns by the EPA in Florida where they are spending 141 million dollars to clean up the environment and have great worries of the phosphate contamination of groundwater by these chemical toxins. Yet there is little concern as these chemicals are used to saturate soils as fire retardants and do certainly seep themselves and their radioativity into groundwater.
Yarnell has been saturated with these phosphates–phosphates by the way are stable compounds and are not biodegradable. So I wonder how much the EPA would be willing to spend on clean up of the Yarnell area now that the Yahoos that are in charge of retardant slurry drops have saturated the town and its immediate environment.
Not much I can say–you are dealing with some of the meanest and richest people supplying these chemicals. Monsanto is high on that list of offenders, but Solutia, Altaris, and Israeli Chemicals will not hesitate to put some millions into the propaganda defending their money trees.
Yarnell–where the desert air meets the mountain air contamination.
I failed to mention the dead zones in the oceans now along the pacific coast where there is nothing but a red algae that survives—the bright orange and red that we associate with the color of the phos-chec slurry. Nothing is said about the connection to the billions of tons of the retardant that have been dumped on wild fires over the past decades along the drainage that all empties into the pacific, yet those phosphates have to be a major player in those dead zones.
So not only human health is involved but even our oceans are at risk with this. Of course these are my own opinions and you are welcome to draw your own conclusions–this is Ameerica and if you want to take cyanide I will not detain your American freedom to do so–however I will try to keep you from suicide if I am able. Yet I can not do much to hold back Monsanto, et. al., from plastering you with their chemicals–just hope we can avoid ingesting the crap best we can and maybe some politician or person of clout will take notice to the effects on places inundated with the toxins and make some redress to the people that have been affected–namely citizens such as Yarnellites and wild land fire fighting heroes along with other contaminated people handling the chemical toxins.
I wish the people who send links to John MacLean’s to learn about fire because one family member feels that is the only space to go but I want to continue to take you here:
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/phoenix-az/shirley-horozinski-7435638
https://www.dignitymemorial.com/obituaries/phoenix-az/clifford-horozinski-7771284
because that is the true story of Yarnell – it is not just 19 – it is just too many to count since the fire…
breaks me up-
I am watching you all on this seasons fire and I am really watching so Ms Legarza one day you will know my name if you keep allowing this reckless slurry drops…
WE MATTER!
Our lives as civilians and firefighters MATTER!
Sorry Shawn- I have knocked on your parents door and there was no answer but it was “XR650L, Just Crazy in Yarnell, AZ.” that I saw the home for sale and I never knew it was for them- I then googled and saw the news that way
I am soooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo sad
beyond.
WAKE UP some of you folks who want to LABEL this page something but a FREE place to EXPRESS
WAKE UP!!!!
also YOU NEED some OLD SCHOOL folks on the WOODBURY NOW
YOU HAD THAT FIRE UNDER CONTROL AT APPX 40 Acres-
then we have to hear Yarnell Hill Todd Abel do his public SHIT
I am documenting this
you are not gonna pull this shit again and again
1. Keeping a fire under control at 40 acres doesn’t get the $ flowing. You gotta think big!
2. WTKTT, Can you remind me what the judge said to the plaintiff in the BAM v. Collura case at the ruling? Wasn’t it something to the effect of ‘this is a high profile, nationally media covered tragedy. Whether you like it or not people are going to talk about it for years to come.’ Wasn’t it something like that?
Not BAM…ABM. Amanda Marsh v. Collura.
that court case is on Gary’s blog
But a good acronym for Amanda–BAM BAM Marsh.
well anyway, acronym for Bad Ass Marsh — Nothing makes much sense with BAM BAM –We need the pros that only do case profiling to understand much– simple Psychology bat hides won’t do it justice. Well her importance in this is minuscule aside the actual evaluation of the perpetrator Eric Marsh. That I would hope someone has already done or is doing considering the magnitude of the Yarnell deaths. A free-lance or retired expert in that field likely already has had some thoughts on it. With much more out to the public about Marsh and his background there is evidence enough for such determination of the likely reasons Marsh would do thing that would cause the death of his crew.
The importance of such an evaluation is crucial to the wild fire fighting safety and operations. It is not to disparage Marsh–he had done that for himself–but to enlighten people on hiring practices and people that would not qualify when lives are at risk, especially if they should want to take a supervisory position–such as Marsh did and everyone in hindsight sees the disaster it was.
People should be looking forward and using the experience Marsh gave to enlist better management and hiring techniques. That looks to be what RTS, Woodsman, WTKTT, Gary and so on as long time bosses want to happen. They need all the resources they can get in proposing changes–why such fellows as experienced in FBI evaluations should be contributing. This after all is a national tragedy on the highest level and those in the FBI departments are still considered as the look to people to evaluate situations of this magnitude.
I think Dr. Ted would be well qualified to a fair degree, but there are those in the FBI that have spent decades looking at criminal behaviour and the people that commit crimes of various sorts. Of course it has to officially labeled a crime and since the GMHS crew was working many states and I would guess classed as Federal Employees then we might get some very good evaluations of not only Marsh but even the people involved with having him come out of a safe zone and even those foolish enough to put him in charge of those young GMHS crew members.
I had used the Ubuntu OS Linux operating system for years when I lived out on the desert and started about the time Joy and I started our hikes and she found my pedigrees blown all over the desert and brought them back to show me. Bat hides are nice but not so important to my way of thinking to frame them and hang them on the walls like some hunters do the heads of the dead animals they had been making cheeseburgers out of. Education has it limits and in certain instances and for certain individuals it has become a box from which they may never escape–well at least their egos may never escape. If it does escape, the true person might be known and much of the brown cloud of advancement might be cloroxed away. A fresh breath of air might be emitted from between the lips of those impressed by their own horseshit.
Do not think I am against education–fine thing, most of our people descendant from Ireland — if they do not respect knowledge and learning can not be Irish. I do not know what this has to do with fire fighting except that when the Twin Towers came down that line of fire fighters that gave their lives attempting to save the injured and trapped were 90% descendant from the Irish race. It makes you no better or worse if you are not Irish–but there are some advantages to being one.
The luck of the Irish–and you need only look at my recent history–say since the Yarnell fire to think there might be something to that. I won’t bother you about the many lucks and many years before that–but miners and fire fighters need all the luck they can get.
But in my case I have the leprechaun to deal with and of course the Irish Goddess Dana–beautiful woman and a hell of a space craft to get around in. She learned to manipulate DNA better than any other scientist many millennia ago. Of course there is the Blarney stone, St Patrick who could run the snakes out of Ireland–many of those were of Engilsh decent.
Then there is a love of potatoes–they say they started in Peru but if so it took the Irish to make them edible and delectable.
But in the end we are all humans–living our ways and proud to be Americans yet also cognizant of our roots–that matters much since it defines who we are to an appreciable degree and also our role as free Americans.
I hate it when Trump says we will make America Great Again–America is, was and always will be great as long as it exists and we are alive.–It is some that run the show that are not so great. Maybe somewhere along the line he will be able to make Trump great again?
The pressure cooker thing is real–my mom would pressure cook beans on a gas stove when we had one–It was more often she cooked on a camp fire–even when I was going to high school classes. But on the camp fire she boiled them in a pot. One instance she opened that pressure cooker too soon and fortunately when the lid flew up she had her head out of the way–it hit the ceiling and beans were plastered everywhere. Beware of those old time pressure cookers and best if you use one to get the stainless steel variety with a lock that only opens once it is cool and safe enough to open.
You likely know all this, but there might be a few that do not. Could save a life there–where knowledge is valuable –as had Donut and the others had knowledge of the LCES and adhered to them as you should the pressure cooker safety, then we would not be talking about their deaths and the reason for them.
Even I as a citizen know that is the acronym for Location, Communication, Escape, and Safety and if I were a wild land fire fighter I could associate that with the procedures and meanings connected to LCES to keep me alive. Do you think Eric Marsh knew what they meant? Maybe he did not know they had safety rules and you just obeyed blindly the orders from those in superior positions. He was stubborn but was that stubborn to follow orders regardless of the consequence?
It is the puzzle we need to know–why I would appreciate some very expert opinions from such as I mentioned –those behavioral scientists that have spent decades of their lives in the study of human factors and human behaviors.
Over the years I have met several retired FBI and CIA–some of them very good at looking at these types situations were a man wantonly kills others. Well Charley Mosley is dead now-Ted would have known if this would have been his expertise–but these people are out there and would afford some damn good input here.
The great thing about IM and John D. –he does not discriminate–here you can say your piece–and if it is off then you might get some flack. But that is good. And even Amanda, you would not be banned like you do people–here you could say your mind–and be welcomed to do so.
America is a delightfully free speech country. Thank you John Daugherty for keeping it that way.
Reply to Charlie post on June 25, 2019 at 2:17 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I had used the Ubuntu OS Linux operating
>> system for years when I lived out on the desert
A true cowboy/desert-rat who also knows about Ubuntu.
You continue to amaze!
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> It makes you no better or worse if you are not Irish –
>> but there are some advantages to being one.
Old Irish Proverb…
“Má tá an t-ádh ort a bheith Éireannach …
tá an t-ádh ort.”
“If you’re enough lucky to be Irish…
you’re lucky enough.”
Oh my–that is a perfect Irish Proverb–Thanks WTKTT–I will remember that one.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 23, 2019 at 8:03 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> 2. WTKTT, Can you remind me what the judge said to the
>> plaintiff in the BAM v. Collura case at the ruling? Wasn’t it
>> something to the effect of ‘this is a high profile, nationally
>> media covered tragedy. Whether you like it or not people
>> are going to talk about it for years to come.’
>>
>> Wasn’t it something like that?
Yep.
On January 8, 2015, Prescott Judge Arthur Markham looked directly at Mrs. Amanda Lohman/Marsh, who was right there in front of him in his courtroom, and said…
————————————————————————————
I’m afraid that the tragedy that happened June 30, 2013 was something that we’re all gonna be livin’ with the rest of our lives. It’s just a… it was a… a kick in the gut for the whole community. Countywide plus statewide, nationwide. One of those great tragedies that just… ya know… it’s one of those things that one can remember where one was when one first heard about something like that… and that’s gonna be a great emotional impact on everybody… and because of it being such a major event… that means people are gonna continue to have opinions about it, talk about it, have meetings about it, have memorials about it… all the different things that come along with great national tragedies like that.
I am NOT going to tell ANYONE to not speak about your husband.
The fireman Marsh certainly was a hero… but was one of the 19… and certainly was a supervisor… and there’s just things that people talk about or whatever.
I’m afraid that’s just something one has to live with… and the fact that there WILL be PUBLIC discussion and PUBLIC opinions about what happened and WHY things happened or WHO was or was not responsible.
———————————————————————————–
I had watched an interview of one of the pilots that had dropped the A-Bomb on Nagasaki and Heroshima. You would think it would weigh heavy on anyone’s conscience to wipe out a 100,000 people, mostly women and children on one bombing run. There were soldiers but most had to be at war. Yet he seemed to have no qualms and could justify it by his words having saved maybe millions of our own soldiers and people and even the Japanese since the war was ended quickly after the second bomb. He said it was no problem, he would do it again if a similar situation came up.
Now we come to the modern day pilot dropping on the enemy–the wild fire about to consume residences. Because Yarnell has perhaps by default or fate become a grand Forest Service and Federal experiment with so many known deaths and illnesses after the 2013 wild fire and the subsequent Tenderfoot Fire where massive loads of retardant were used to saturate the environment surrounding Yarnell, I wonder what the new attitude will be.
Will the pilots continue to willfully dump this toxic substance near human residences. Or on the other hand will he consider the devastating fact that he will be killing the elderly and spreading chemical related disease among his fellow citizens. Yes, I know–the corporations that make this shit will yell loudly that this is an inert substance as far as humans go–only aquatic life is killed instantly and look how nicely the ground is fertilised besides. Those homes will be saved, people will be happy when they return with their belongings intact.
Of course at Yarnell the high winds defeated the retardant dumps in almost all instances. The few houses that might be accounted for can not justify the millions spent to protect them. The main part of Yarnell burned on the same level had no retardant been used–but indeed the corporations and perhaps some stock holders did get a decent profit from the runs. Pilots drew their good pay and sadly they could not locate or the danger was too high to drop on the trapped GMHS crew. In fact that would have made the millions spent worth the money and I wonder why there are not jumbo jets circiling with the only purpose of aiding wild fire men in case they do a foolish thing or by accident get caught so a massive retardant dump might save them.
So I wonder what the justification will be now that we know how deadly these chemicals react, not only on fish and aquatic life, but citizens and the men who are constantly exposed to this toxic slurry.
Joy, I hope you continue to post these obituaries–they hit home–Good God, to have your next door neighbours die as did Cliff and Shirley did, then you own experience of dying with a heart attack and cancers escalated, then you also look down the street either way and every other house is a death house, then you realise that the fish are not the only ones in danger from the toxic slurry dumps. I could not be the pilot to drop anywhere near residences–but I suspect as that Nagasaki pilot did–excuse and justification will be summoned–the devil you say. .
Timothy Ingalsbee is quoted heavily in the 2017 article below.
Timothy Ingalsbee is the executive director of Oregon-Based Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE) and former Forest Service and National Park Service firefighter, told Earther.
FUSEE was the group that actually filed the original lawsuit to FORCE the Forest Service to actually do an ‘Environmental Impact’ study on fire retardant.
The Forest Service had already been dropping the shit for YEARS without ever having done any such study.
The PROBLEM now, though, is that even FUSEE has its head up its ass and doesn’t even realize the scope of the problem.
It is FUSEE, itself, that is now pushing for fire retardant to ONLY be used ‘close to homes and structures’. They argue that it does absolutely no good being dropped out in the boondock where there are no targets of value to protect and no ground crews around to augment the protection it offers.
Unbelievable.
Article Title: Blanketing California in Fire Retardant Is Potentially Very Harmful
Published: 12/11/17 11:41am
By: Renee Lewis
https://earther.gizmodo.com/blanketing-california-in-fire-retardant-is-potentially-1821181258
In the article above… first we hear FUSEE Executive Director Timothy Ingalsbee say this…
——————————————————————–
“These chemicals do not have a benign effect on the environment. They can be toxic—particularly to fish and aquatic species,” Timothy Ingalsbee, executive director of Oregon-Based Firefighters United for Safety, Ethics, and Ecology (FUSEE) and former Forest Service and National Park Service firefighter, told Earther.
Fire retardant—which is fertilizer mixed with water and other chemicals—slows the rate of a fire’s spread by coating its fuels and thus depriving it of oxygen. Federal use of the stuff has exploded in recent years, from about 8.5 million gallons in 2012 to 19 million gallons in 2016.
At certain concentrations, chemical retardants can kill local fauna outright. In 2002, a U.S. Forest Service fire retardant drop landed in Fall River, near Bend, Oregon. The red liquid killed 22,000 fish in a four-mile stretch of river in one day.
Forest Service regulations stipulate that fire retardant is not to be dropped within 300 feet of any waterway.
———————————————————————–
Then, later in the same article, the same guy ( Ingalsbee ) slings this astonishing bullshit…
———————————————————————-
“Fire retardant can be most effective when it is dropped ahead of a fire in conditions where ground crews can then take advantage of the slowed spread, Ingalsbee said. But too often, it is dropped in areas where it will do no good, he added.
The best place to use fire retardant is near communities where human life is at risk, and where ground crews have access to get in and fight the fire that is being slowed by the retardant.
The worst is dropping it in ‘wildlands’ where there are steep slopes, dense forests, and no ground crews. In that case, the fire may be slowed, but with no crews to stop it, it will eventually just burn through the retardant, Ingalsbee said.
“Basically, they’re dumping it in the wrong times, places, and conditions where it’s least likely to be effective,” Ingalsbee said.
——————————————————————–
“The BEST place to use fire retardant is NEAR communities where HUMAN LIFE is at risk.”
Keep in mind… THIS is the guy ( and the organization ) that leads the fight AGAINST the use of fire retardant… but he still thinks it’s better to use it NEAR communities.
WTF?
The fall river was nothing compared to the phosphates : just one headline on the Florida area :
A massive fish kill is currently underway in Florida. Hundreds of thousands of dead fish can be seen “for miles” in Indian River Lagoon.
Phosphates and retardant runoff with the major constituent phosphate (Phos-Chek) have been determined to be the major reason those fish are dead. Those phosphates also contain radioactive elements to add to the toxins of the environment. The mines south of Tampa about 40 miles had been abandoned and cost an estimated 140 million dollars to clean up. Not only that a sink hole in the area has allowed contamination in groundwater.
You do not want to consume phosphates–renal problem arise and your arteries plug up. I have six stents with after those trips through the retardant soot. I think that was instigated by the ammonium phosphates I was breathing and being subjected to with the hikes. Since leaving the area and falling dead from the heart attacks I have had two catheters run to my heart–now things are clear but the damage is done–at least the doctors say I have only about 50% of my heart that now functions. The rest is dead. I do have renal problems now –something else to address–where before this massive retardant dump there were none. All this came on too fast to be just happenstance. I tell this because perhaps it will get these dumb asses that would dump near residences an understanding that they are doing damage to the health of people and even killing them much like the fish and aquatic life they have killed in the hundreds of thousands. Strangely that includes sea plant live as well since the dead zones where fish can not live also includes any plant life below the red blooms of algae that was spawned by the phosphate and retardant run off.
This is very serious–even more serious in death count at Yarnell than the 19 deaths of GMHS. But I expect them to turn a blind eye because the companies involved are some of the wealthiest from their retardant polluting dumps. They will not want to loose their goose with a golden egg despite the fact the goose is shitting all over the public and fire fighters health.
And especially if a Type 1 IMT is involved, I seriously doubt the fire will be kept at anything close to resembling a mere 40 acres.
Yep. I.just looked it up, 10,000+ acres 0% contained. Gotta draw the big box and burn it all off. Fuel reduction project and big $ Rollin. Admittedly, I’m not only biased, I’m jaded. I’ve seen it too many times. Let me see if I can dig out the flight following data I had that sure looked like aerial ignition to me. I thought we needed to reduce carbon emissions because of sea level rise & everything? I’m so confused…
Whoops! I was looking at old information. 96,307 acres now and 25 % contained. Now we’re gettin somewhere!
That’s what I call a box that would even make GSM Natl Park blush.
How about 96,000 acres and decreasing containment from 34% to 25% this morning
( https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona-wildfires/2019/06/23/woodbury-fire-burns-over-96-000-acres/1541269001/ )
How about they’re doing what I’ve said they do for years? If the general public only knew…
Did it at Yarnell too.
sure did- that is coming out soon
will they bring Jeff Whitney back to console any loved ones…for the next moment…just a matter of when so get your suits read Jefe
The decreased contained is because they drew a bigger box on the map in Plans. Look at the shape of the fire. What does that tell you. Bravo, team 2, bravo!
RTS,
In your professional opinion, and due to your familiarity with the area, what do you believe are the primary barriers to suppression at the Woodbury fire? Howw has it been so difficult to keep to under 100k acres? (We may as well call it 6 digits as it will probably be there by morning.)
In short, am I full of crap or is something “funny” going on here? You can tell me if im full of crap. I’m a big boy.
RTS,
I’d like an answer to this question, please. Do you have any insight? Whats going on down there? Thanks!
Woodsman,
Thanks for being patient and reminding me. Been busy ya know
In my professional opinion, I believe the primary barrier to suppression at the Woodbury Fire was pure unadulterated POLITICS.
The Superstition Mountains are some pretty rough country for sure with lots of natural barriers, however, those are usually surmountable in spite of how rugged they are.
Several folks familiar with the initial stages of the Woodbury Fire stated that Air Attack ordered quite heavy on Air Support and it was denied.
And the IA (Type 1 IHC) had it picked up at 40 acres, then told to let it burn.
Whatever IMT was in charge did their very best to fire off as much of the entire Superstition Wilderness Area as possible and they proceeded to follow suit, as directed to do so.
Today only a few isolated columns were showing in the afternoon.
It was a man-caused fire and yet they fired off it as if it was a Resource Benefit Fire, and pretty aggressively based on the smoke color and smoke columns with both ground and aerial ignitions.
And had 14 plus HS Crews on it from the SW and elsewhere.
It’s easy to keep it under 100 acres and certainly under a 100,000 acres if left alone to do one’s suppression job.
You were right about the 6 digits as it was there by the next evening.
In short, you are definitely NOT full of crap. Something “funny” was definitely going on here, and unless the public or investigative reporters look into in in detail, the USFS will have effectively pulled the wool over everyone’s eyes … AGAIN!
Thank you for confirming my suspicions on the suspect initial attack suppression actions in the superstitions. The taxpayers should know where their money went: to pay for a 200,000 ACRE fuel reduction prescribed burn under the guise of a wildfire that could have easily been held to less than 100 acres. That level of risk exposure to resources is unacceptable, much less the waste of money. Looks like they got away with another one. Bastards…
I have not read all the comments lately but IF it meant FREEDOM OF SPEECH – Our First Amendment – God Bless You – Keep being YOU…
because since Spring 1994 I do not know what ever happened to ONE specific man WHO signed off on so many certifications over the years that are in my public records…
If you ever thought about it, sir- YOU – I know one that has unfriended you besides a long time friend of yours… your own shadow did
Was the name of your shadow called “Bad Luck” ???? Bad something…
Guess what pal- many of us do not get the life WE want but we do get the life God made for us to do HIS PURPOSE and you owe it to so many to tell the truth ASAP-
Something happened to you, something you were not responsible for, something that at the moment it occurred put a huge stain on your quest for happiness and your heart. Yes, you carry a stain that no-one is now able to remove…no-one but God.
Today is YOUR day, sir.
call it whatever you like it’s there, and if I don’t remove it things will stay the same… and probably get worse… GIVE IT TO GOD FINALLY ,/b> and stop leading a pretend way. Sixty Seven Years Old is the New Young Man so time to fresh start your world with HONESTY…
I can’t explain why it took so long for you. Perhaps that thought – that suffering would help you better appreciate the happiness and abundance that’s soon to enter you life. Who knows?
Give it to God, sir.
He will not let you down as you have seen as each year passes…it is your time…
Are you talking about Willis Joy? I liked Willis–he is a smooth guy–but I never understood how he would be one to foster the lies.
Well you never can judge a book by its cover–in fact there are some books with a pretty cover but ugly reading.
Joy had sent me the obituaries to Cliff and Shirley and I see posted here as well–sad they were my next door neighbors–Cliff had watched the Hydrogen bomb off his ship when in the Navy–he had not known because of his health problems he was entitled to at least $75,000 for being a guinea pig. The fall out had inundated the ship.
He was having some health problems but you would have thought Shirley would live to be a centarian. Both dead–and their next door neighbor lost her husband and came down with breast cancer after the fire. Up the street a couple houses lived the librarian that had that open heart surgery. The lady one house down from me died before I left Yarnell–she looked to be in good health and you would not imagine her death–Joy and I had visited these people often and Joy did quit a bit of work to help Clifford apply for that benefit he well deserved. Sad he will never collect.
From that lady that died just two house down and only a couple houses more was where Brent lived as quadriplegic. He looked to be in good health but came down somewhat about a year after the fire–young and you would have thought he had many more years left in him. Across almost was Bob whose house burned to the ground–last Joy said he was on his death bed with cancer. We talked with him often and I would have thought him to live to a hundred.
These are only the ones I knew on that street–I am certain there are others and Joy knew them all and how they are doing.
I had tried to post this so I may have posted again–I had lost the post but thought the effort to rewrite it a wake up call for the Yarnellites and again anyone exposed to those toxic substances dispersed as retardants.
Quite a lot of retardant was dispersed right along that street where my cabin was and in that area. .
for the people still alive…we got this…for the remembrance of those no longer able may it be disease or died… with God all things are possible!
Gary, the stuff that comes out this Summer no judge will entertain any problems to IM –
you all just learned the falsifications…the Andrew fella and there is more to come to show the entire fire in pure form…and yeah, Gary…God is in control so no one here has to concern to any suits even you as healthy as you are…
THE TRUTH was a tough area to bring to the light especially when one kept distracting and redirecting to false areas…
Hugs to anyone needing one tonight.
Joy just sent two obituaries–unbelievable. My next door neighbor Clifford Horowinski just passed a short time ago. His wife has now followed–Shirley Marie Horowinski. This man served the Navy and was one of the guinea pigs assigned to watch the Hydrogen bomb off his Ship.
He did not know he was entitled to a minium payment of $75,000 for that ordeal due to the fall out exposure he suffered. He will not get to collect and was very deserving of that money and some of the illness he suffered after. But you see he is dead and now also his wife Shirlely who Joy and I had many occasions to visit with these fine people.
This is the stuff we see at Yarnell and it seems to be never ending with both your next door neighbor and wife now deceased. I know Cliff had some health problems but his wife was in excellent health.
I tell you that town of Yarnell is another Chernobyl in high gear. People are just not recognising how toxic the town has become after the slurry dumps. I truly believe had I remained a resident I would be deceased by now. We do not know how some of the residents that left Yarnell after the fire are doing. The ones we did visit were having health problems as well.
This is horrible since the lady next door to Cliff and his wife had come down with cancer some time after the fire–her husband had deceased as well. Almost next door to that lady was the librarian that had to suffer open heart surgery some months after the fire. I do not know if she is still alive.. Her husband had passed as well.
This should be a wake up call to residents there and wild land fire fighters of age. The young seem to tolerate this toxic soup but the elders are given their death knoll when exposed to it.
I should mention the other way down the same street just one house past the lady next door was another widow that we would often speak with. Joy knows her well and her kin–that lady has passed since the fire as well. and just up the street next house down was Brent who I mentioned buying his Gibson guitar with my initials SG on it in pearl. Brent was a quadriplegic–we often visited had a few beers together, yet he too had succumbed about a year after the fire–despite his quadriplegic condition he was quite well and able to function off the wheel chair and at his youthful age you would have thought he had many years left.
Across the street almost was Bob–his house burned to the ground but he stayed in Yarnell–now down with cancer almost to his death bed. He was pert and you never would think he would be less than a centarian. I do not know the others on that street though Joy does and I suspect the few left are not doing so well.
Just in case you haven’t been keeping up with current events Joy…FUCK MACLEAN And the horse he ride in on, NEIL, JUST DONT NEED THEM OR WANT EM.!
Sonny wrote,
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-479264
And then I wrote,
Yes…I finally realized you are right a few years ago and apologized to you for doubting what you think. The truth is…I don’t know the first fuckin’ thing about what any of those chemicals did to my body.
I do know what excessive and continual wild fire smoke did to my body and now I have a terminal pulmonary diesese that is incurable and will shorten my life by an unknown number of years, but the experts agree on one thing…it will shorten my life.
So you know…fuck it, I have gone back to putting as much salt on my Mexican 🇲🇽 food as I want to. 😎
And now I write,
And I will tell you one more thing that I think was and is a bad idea. And that was and probably still is having a bunch of dumb ass kids like I used to be running around without adult supervision, proper training or even any training at all, in addition to not having the correct Personal Protective Equipment (PPE) like respirators, specific gloves and outer wear you know…MIXING OUR OWN FUCKIN JELLIED GASOLINE, OTHERWISE KNOWN AS NAPALM by mixing a very toxic and dangerous chemical called ALUMGEL, which I think is based on aluminum powder.
“EZFire Gelling Agent
Western Helicopter Services is a worldwide distributor of EZFire. This product has been manufactured since the early 1960’s and has come in a variety of names. Originally it was called M3 Incendiary oil (Napalm) or Alumagel and was used primarily for military operations. Since then it has also been referred to as SureFire and Firetrol, and now under its current name EZFire.“
So…just FYI, I don’t think this was, or is a very good idea either. M3 INCENDIARY OIL, OMGosh! When one of my best friends, former squad bosses, former Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses was a few days away from death due to the failure of some of his major organs, he told me he was convinced the Alumagel powder he inhaled doing prep work for large scale helitorch operations was what was killing him.
http://www.westernhelicopterservices.com/EZFire.html
The only way some if the decisions made by REMF, make any sense at all, is if you consider people to be merely statistics and not human beings.
“Since then it has also been referred to as SureFire and Firetrol,
and now under its current name EZFire.“
You gotta love the marketing geeks.
Forget what it might actually DO to people… just give it a ‘catchy name’.
EZDeath is ‘catchy’ too… but I’m sure that wasn’t considered.
Disgusting.
I mean…M3 Incendiary Oil! OMGosh…how scary does that stuff sound?
Oh yes…and I did bring along a 55 gallon drum if M3 with me, just in case…ahhhh, you know…we need it.
Oh…you mean EZFire?
You beat me too it, but great minds think alike. Or in this case…one okay mind and one great processor.
Oh I do hate to hear that Gary and I know you are not one to pout about it. Neither am I about my own situation –what happened and what we did at the time was the best of our ability and knowledge at the time, and for certain I never thought these chemicals would later in life reveal themselves as they have. We always assumed and even were told that the radiation and chemical exposure was nothing to worry about concerning health. We believed it. It of course was a lie, and now with what I see–important people are cut short the years that their expertise and wisdom and their time should not be a time of suffering and dealing with these horrible health situations.
I know I harp a lot about the health thing–but we saw Charlie Mosley die not long after he visited us at Yarnell. He had been a smoke jumper you might have known–even later worked CIA. His friends and Ted Putnam, all acquainted and wild land fire fighters or smoke jumpers all reek of health problems. Of course most of us do not care to speak much about them nor necessarily want people to know. I think the reason that not much is said about what is going on in that industry–the corporations, people demanding the use of these chemicals are glad for that. They are not happy to lay out any of the billions they make to make right the problems their chemicals have caused to the men having to use them.
I know that the retardant to many is seemingly a harmless chemical–some would gladly eat it to show that. And they are correct–you can eat it and get by with doing that for some time. You can breath it and get by for some time unless you are already compromised in your health or you are elderly and your immune system is not that of a 20 or 30 year old.
This is what Joy and I have observed at Yarnell–for a fact, the death rate after the wild fire of 2013 and the subsequent Tenderfoot fire is way beyond coincidence. The many sick that were doing well before the fire is alarming. It brings on a sadness, especially when they were friends and associates that you had often visited and socialised with.
My war time veteran status qualifies me for medical care–and now even doctors of my liking. That must be applied to the warriors who fight wild fires and are exposed for any time to that deadly slurry and other chemicals you mentioned. Good lord mixing that napalm and the chemicals there are a guaranteed ruination of health over time.
Somewhere down the line I believe we will know much more about the hidden chemicals. With what I witnessed at Yarnell as far as the high death and disease rate, I think it safer to let a town burn than use the chemicals they did there. I know in the case of Yarnell the town burned despite the use of the retardant and at the rate according to Wooten and Morrison that it would have burned without the use of retardant. The retardant makes a beautiful public display and wonderfully bright photographs for the media.
Rather than the town, I would have hoped they could have jumbo dumped on the GMHS–that would have been well worth the health risk if it could have had any influence on saving their lives.
I personally do not blame anyone for my own health problems–I voluntarily hiked many times–over a hundred through that chemical laden soot–Joy and I often looked like coal miners much like you often see the wild land fire fighter when he is in action. Our ignorance perhaps can not be excused. But I believe these corporations and the Forest Service are fully aware of the effects these chemicals have on health. They have fallen down on their responsibility to warn the fire fighter and the public of the disasters it will cause to life if a person breaths the fumes or is exposed to these toxic chemicals. They have greatly fallen down on taking care of the people they have harmed after the dispersion or use of these toxic chemicals.
If Yarnell was not an experiment to see the effects on human health, it became one by default. The deaths and disease after the slurry drops can not be denied–they are as real as the deaths of the 19 GMHS.
Sonny,
Keep pressing on with the retardant issue because it’s very real and otherwise being ignored
In the Fall of 1987, on the Klamath NF in Northern CA, the smoke inversions were some heavy that we did not see the sun for weeks at a time and the US Army was there with their “oxygen tents” and medical personnel doing unauthorized blood testing of firefighting personnel because the Government had been trying to create a “nuclear winter” scenario on RX Burns to no avail.
And here was the perfect opportunity.
<Many older folks died over the Winter, likely from the incessant smoke inversions and heavy carbon monoxide poisoning we were all exposed to as well
RTS: Well that was a repetition of Yarnell–and yes the Army would be there–few know that ultimately the Army is in charge of the Forest and can do what they please on forest lands–that came about after the Japanese started sending over their balloon bombs. So the Army can step in any time they please without any interference from any FS or other Federal officials.
WTKTT mentions that there is a jerk with some clout that is recommending dumps be concentrated around residential areas. After he saw what happened at Yarnell he now wants to make sure and see if it will make more of the elderly ill and send them to their death sooner. This guy has the mentality of the German death squads after knowing what you just wrote about the elderly deaths from that fire with the inversion problem.
The problem is the public is not informed–and in the case of Yarnell they acted with fear to speak out on what really happened at Yarnell. Is John Daugherty the only one in the media brave enough to allow the facts out?
No apology needed Gary–I add salt too my Irish potatoes–not the salt that killed me and my heart–that damn slurry on those many hikes–Yarnell is toxic.
I know understand that I, in addition to many others on this blog have been targeted by on-line trolls and bullies by accusing me for one, of wanting to, or planning to murder GMIHC families from a sniper position.
I say that is enough. In fact, that is way more than enough. Stop and cease and desist in these attacks, harassment and intimidation immediately or I will publish everything I can find out about YOU on-line and ask everyone who disagrees with the despicable tactics that you are using to stop by your homes and explain to you that is not right.
So…quit attacking me and the people I care about or I will fight back and I believe in PSYOPS….BECAUSE PHYSICAL WOUNDS HEAL. Pleae be advised…I am the WRONG guy to fuck with.
Oh…and one more thing. I have started researching my options for SUING AMANDA LOHMAN AND THE ERIC MARSH FOUNDATION FOR DEFAMATION, CALUMNY, VILIFICATION, AND TRADUCEMENT for their communication of a false statement that harmed my reputation! So…knock it off…ASAP.
In order to continually attempt to make sense of the YH Fire and GMHS tragedy, I have been reading a book titled: Blue on Blue – A History of Friendly Fire by Geoffrey Regan. The subtitle of “A devastating assortment of miscalculations, malfunctions and military mishaps – from ancient Greece to the Persian Gulf” brings it a bit more into perspective.
I believe that this directly relates to the leadership (or lack thereof), especially of the Operational (DIVS A) in particular, and the Acting GMHS in general, that virtually mirrors what occurred on the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 22, 1893, as outlined below.
In the chapter on Naval Warfare (pp. 186-220), the author covers the legacy of a prescient, ahead-of-his-times, brilliant tactician – British Vice Admiral Sir George Tryon, Commander-in-Chief of the Mediterranean Squadron of the Royal Navy, that worked tirelessly to improve naval warfare in many aspects, including implementing many of his ideas on training, the introduction of a greater sense of realism into fleet maneuvers, and revision of the signal book because they communicated with pendants. Admiral Tyron was never comfortable with the status quo.
“His intellect allowed him to dominate everyone around him” and one fellow officer noted it was no use arguing with him and it was better to acquiesce quietly. But this very quality was to bring ruin on him. He wanted his men to show drive and take initiative in the way that he always had. However, he found that the majority of the naval officers feared his reputation, so that none dared to stand up to him or challenge him or suggest that he was wrong.
However, in the end, likely during the fog of war, he fell victim to these attitudes and perceptions toward him.
On maneuvers near Beirut, Admiral Tyron proposed a difficult test to his captains, crews, and fleet of eleven battleships, in his iron clad HMS Victoria. As the columns began approaching the Syrian coast, the Admiral issued instructions to his staff for the distance between the two ships columns to be maintained at six cables (1,200 yards) and for each ship in turn to turn inwards to make a 180-degree turn, similar to the Army’s about-face.
However, a small problem was obvious to his staff commander. The leading ships of both columns (HMS Victoria and HMS Camperdown) each required eight cables (1,600 to 1,800 yards) leeway to safely make a 180-degree turn. When questioned by his staff commander, Tryon initially conceded that it would require eight cables , however, for whatever reason, he later gave the order that the distance between the ship columns should be six cables.
Captain Archibald Bourke, commander of the Victoria, commented: “ open criticism of one;s superior is not consonant with true discipline, and so he chose do to nothing but to grit his teeth and pray.”
Rear-admiral Markham in the Camperdown knew it was impossible and impracticable and so he waited for a revised order that never came. All he got was waving flags from the Victoria indicating “what are you waiting for?” Admiral Tryon demanded what could at times be absolute obedience from his officers.
Markham complied and the two lead ships (Victoria and Camperdown) turned inward toward each other in their 180-degree turn. As expected, the inevitable happened. The Camperdown’s ram buried itself deep into the starboard bow of the flagship Victoria about 20 feet forward of her turret, about 65 feet from her bow.
Once the Camperdown pulled away it left a jagged hole in her port bow, her stem broken, some forward compartments flooded, but still safely serviceable. However, the Victoria was fatally damaged. There was a great breach 100 square feet open to the sea and water rushed in at 3,000 tons per minute. The Victoria listed starboard and the bows began to sink.
The Victoria rolled over and sank quickly. Admiral Tryon and his 357 officers and men lost their lives in this inexplicable incident. Admiral Tyron’s body was never recovered. Almost 300 other crewmen of the Victoria were rescued, including the Executive Officer, Commander John Jellicoe, who was ill in his bunk at the time.
“ What is more difficult to understand is why Tyron seemed unprepared to admit his error and correct it, thereby preventing a disaster and the deaths of so many of his men. The exchanges with his officers over the figures “six” and “eight” indicate that Tyron did not enjoy being reminded of his first mistake and preferred to risk the consequences of it, whatever those might be, rather than admit to younger and more junior men that their commander was not perfect. ” (p.194)
The subsequent court martial acquitted the surviving officers of the Victoria. The court expressed its regret that Rear-admiral Markham had not protested more strongly against the fatal maneuver, but considered that it was not in the best interests of the Service to censure him for obeying the orders of his superior officer.
This did not go well with Army commanders and the Army Commander in Chief, the Duke of Cambridge, stated: “ A good deal has been said of late as to the freedom being given to inferiors to question and disobey the orders of a superior officer. Discipline must be the law, and must prevail. It is better to go wrong according to orders than to go wrong in opposition to orders. ”
The reaction to this disaster helped lead to a more intelligent interpretation of the past’s rigid and inflexible adherence of “blind obedience” to orders that had blighted the peacetime 19th century Royal Navy.
( http://adb.anu.edu.au/biography/tryon-sir-george-4753 )
B. N. Primrose, ‘Tryon, Sir George (1832–1893)’, Australian Dictionary of Biography, National Centre of Biography, Australian National University, published first in hardcopy 1976, accessed online 23 June 2019.
( http://www.navy.gov.au/biography/vice-admiral-sir-george-tryon )
Hopefully, you will recognize the parallels to what occurred on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, as DIV A Marsh adamantly insisted that Acting GMHS Supt. Steed bring them down to the BSR. Steed protested that it was unsafe and either that they could not or would not make it, with an apologetic “I understand and I’m sorry.” Against all training and well-published WF Rules, the GMHS left their perfectly good Safety Zone in the black and dutifully hiked downhill through chutes and chimneys and into a deadly bowl, all choked with unburned chaparral.
And yet, the survivor “lookout” McDo-not stated that they were much smarter than those WFs following the rules because he felt that they were ” Hillbilly ” and old. Third year HS Crewmembers don’t come to that conclusion on their own, so that most likely would have been an accepted GMHS norm. More likely a classic Normalization of Deviance .
“June 22, 1893: British Battleship Sinks British Battleship Without Firing a Shot!” with a video containing artwork and archive photos!
Major Dan (USMC) June 22, 2016
( https://www.historyandheadlines.com/june-22-1893-british-battleship-sinks-british-battleship-without-firing-shot/ )
Thank you for that. Yes… the similarities between Tyron and Marsh are unmistakable, as well as the similarities between Markham and Steed.
When looking for other ( documented ) ‘blunders’ that caused unnecessary loss of life… one might not need look any farther than this example to explain this “greatest tactical blunder in the history of wildland firefighting” which took place in Yarnell on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
The SAD part is that this was NOT the fucking military.
If Jesse Steed has “stood his ground” and knew how to shut-down Marsh’s clever “mitigating speech” and passive-aggressive manipulation(s)…. it is actually NOT likely that Steed would have “lost his job” ( which is what Steed feared even above threats to the safety of his crew ).
No one died in Yarnell ( thank goodness ).
Steed and Marsh might have had a ‘session’ behind closed doors with Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis about what happened out there on the Weavers ( if Marsh hadn’t been killed out in the canyon by himself that day )…. but the ‘evidence’ would have been completely on Steed’s side by then. In hindsight…. REFUSING Marsh’s “order” WAS the correct decision… and nothing would have happened to Steed.
As we pull up on another anniversary of this “greatest tactical BLUNDER in the history of wildland firefighting”… there ARE still important “Lessons to Learn”… but you have to look at what happened REALISTICALLY in order to find the really, really IMPORTANT ‘lessons’.
As the story you relate above shows… when tragedies happen as a result of “Human Factors”…. it is impossible to separate the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy. They are forever a PART of all the circumstances that led to the tragedy itself.
Typo above… sorry.
Paragraph above should have read like this…
If Jesse Steed HAD “stood his ground” and knew how to shut-down Marsh’s clever “mitigating speech” and passive-aggressive manipulation(s)…. it is actually NOT likely that Steed would have “lost his job”
Did you notice that the Admiral Tyron tragedy took place today in 1863?
But the SAIT did NOT look into the “Human Factors” regarding the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy.”
And chose instead the “No violations of negligence, policy, protocol, or procedures” conclusion instead
Or maybe they did and it scared them so bad they abandoned all of it.
One of the SMEs told me early one that they had so much information that they could not and would no release tho the public
You will NEVER be wrong about the Yarnell SAIT “arriving at a conclusion FIRST… and then creating a narrative to support it”.
Brad Mayhew can keep yelling “Bullshit!” at you ( in public or private settings ) all he wants to.
He is just personifying Shakespeare’s quote about when guilty people are usually the loudest ones in the room..
“Methinks he doth protest TOO MUCH”
It is OBVIOUS that is what the Yarnell SAIT did… and you will never be wrong.
It was all about LIABILITY, really.
Publish the TRUTH… and get out the checkbook.
Say you CAN’T BE SURE ( even though you have evidence you are hiding )…. and maybe it will just “go away”.
What they forgot was that once you ask the entire nation ( indeed, the world ) to mourn with you and pay homage to dead people…. SOME of us ( a LOT of us ) aren’t ready to just swallow your bullshit. SOME of us ( a LOT of us ) that stood in lines and went to memorials and donated to widow’s funds actually want to KNOW what the fuck HAPPENED.
And the YEARS that go by don’t change that desire.
What the heck… a little more Shakespeare, anyone?
Foul deeds WILL rise,
Though all the earth o’erwhelm them… to men’s eyes.
Hamlet (1.2.256)
Tick tock… tick tock…
Did you notice that the Admiral Tyron tragedy took place today in 1863?
But the SAIT did NOT look into the “Human Factors” regarding the personalities, reputations and decision-making habits of the individuals involved from the ’causes’ of the tragedy.”
And chose instead the “No violations of negligence, policy, protocol, or procedures” conclusion instead
Or maybe they did and it scared them so bad they abandoned all of it.
One of the SMEs told me early one that they had so much information that they could not and would no release tho the public
Very good analogy RTS. I do not know if Joy still has a photo of the GMHS qualification board and on that board in order to qualify as a hot shot one must strictly obey orders on a daily basis–much like what you saw in that Naval ordeal. The word strictly obey must go up the line so that when a superior requests you to do something, you jump to it with unquestionable obedience–something that Steed indeed fell down on but lost the argument anyhow. And weighing in on Donut and the others who referred to Steed as the Greek God of fire fighting and Marsh as DaddyO –they believed in their masters and had no reason to know much about safety–they thought they were in safe hands with their bosses.
It feeds the ego for the boss but does little for safety when the boss is the wise man and never should be questioned.
It is a good thing being an underground miner since you are the boss and your boss is worth much less than you. In fact he was used as a nipper and with the jack hammer noise it was the reason you seldom saw him except at entry and exit to the shift. Those fellows need to be strictly told that there are safety guides and when those are blatantly being disregarded to qualify as a hot shot you must strictly raise objections to the matter.
Nothing changes if nothing changes.
A few emails to Joy conversing back and forth this morning–share a bit. Joy is not well but is working on some important posts that she hopes to have here by Wednesday or as she can. This Yarnell incident has placed a heavy burnden on so many folks we know and not only have the loved ones suffered greatly but many in the community as well, I will continue to post some about the slurry drops–it is an issue that I see as important and regards the safety of the wild land fire fighter as much as following correct and safe procedures while working on the actual fire edge.
To Joy:
The issue about the 19 is indeed terrible—we have both wept over it–but even that does not compare to the needless deaths of so many at Yarnell–people see the burning deaths as the worse thing and indeed it is horror that you know lasted as long as it took to sear their lungs and kill them by burning and suffocation–perhaps five minutes of horror. But the chemical killing of Yarnell people involves what we are enduring–slow suffering, waking up with tubes down your throat and hours, days and months of destroyed health with all kinds of issues dealing with the medical profession and so on. It becomes a relentless nightmare and some can not handle it–Grant for instance killing himself. We stay in there but it takes a good constitution.
Here Joy is suffering and ill:
On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 8:22 AM Tex Gilligan wrote:
Not good sorry to hear. I have been doing spring cleaning–yard and inside back to simple but like you it is a slow thing. Yesterday I got in about three or four hours moving liumber from the yard stuff I had left over from building the porch and other projects.
Thinking about Gary–he originally said that retardant was not bad or dangerous–then down with COPD and now with those posts beginning to realise what has taken him down. There are so many of those people that worked the fire that are sick–remember Charley Mosely, and those friends–Putnam with heart disease, and their friend you could see was not well. You look at Norb and he was not fit to climb mountains and just about every one of the older ones had been around it long time are ready to retire but on the edge as well. Trouble with that stuff is if your health is not good then it comes in and finishes you off of gives you a disease like cancer that works on you some time or heart disease or that stuff like COPD.
Email to Joy from Tex:
We were doing good before the fire–worse thing we went though that residue and breathed in that black soot mixed with their chemicals and got some heavy doses–neither of us were that sick like some of the old folks at Yarnell–look at the librarian–she got a heart attack right away open heart surgery. What about that lady down the street–dead. Lady next door stayed inside all the time did not get that much but I bet she is down. Wasn’t that woman that had the dress shop–he husband died and she now took on cancer. Shit that whole town is down sick or affected with a neighbour next door either dead or sick. It looks worse than Chernobyl–only 233 there deaths confirmed out of 12,000 people but they too had the long time effects like happening to Yarnellites. Only Yarnell it comes on much quicker–those chemicals are stronger but you don’t know what they had added to that concoction. Could have been benzene or other stuff. The government is not beyond experimenting and what we saw being dumped there was massive amounts. So just stay away from that as much as you can. I imagine the rains there have diluted it a lot by now and you and I are poisoned as much as we will ever be–but damn them and those pilots that have to know they are dropping poisons on people. But they too might be fooled–yet somewhere they will pay with health issues even if they do not know
I share some of our conversation–well some of what I say to her–not what she says to me. Joy is about to reveal some factual information that a number of people do not want out. It will hurt some feelings and debunk lots of the false representations presented about the Yarnell Hill Fire and operations that were done but hidden from public and the general wild land community. They are essential in understanding why the young heroes were needlessly killed.
However, I think there is also another issue proven at Yarnell involving the Slurry drops and its devastating effects on human health. Being the simple person I am, I am one to look at a situation and when I see the excessive number of deaths and the onset of an enormous increase of similar illness not related to virus or bacteria cause–then I have to look at chemical causes. And the only chemicals before the onset of these deaths and disease increases were the massive slurry drops that surrounded Yarnell.
I realise that many people do not care or want to get involved–I mean even Joy’s Dad did not care that cigarettes were a detriment to his health and laughted at the idea so that he continued to smoke after the loss of one lung and warnings by his doctor. It is that way on the slurry situation and like the cigarette industry, the slurry industry is a multi-billion dollar situation where these corporations will do every sleight of hand to stay in business. Money is master. But it does not make it right when evidence is to the contrary.
I lived in Yarnell only a couple years–a few of the wild land fire fighters honored my small rock cabin by their visits and their hikes with Joy and I to the area where the 20 GMHS crew trekked and their working areas and place of demise.
I have seen how Joy shared her photos, time and efforts toward finding a resolution to the deaths of those men. When she saw the falsehoods presented she became determined to right the wrongs. Joy had lived Yarnell and the Yarnell area approximately 20 years–had made many hikes with Snake Man and others to abandoned mines in the area and was generally known as the Desert Walker of Yarnell. That is what she did.
The librarian that I spoke of who did have to have open heart surgery not many months after the slurry drops was one of many of the Yarnellites that told Joy and I we should drop the issue–let it go and leave it alone. Those men are dead, there was an investigation and that is good enough. And how many times we would hear that from others there. Only a few would agree that there was something amiss and encourage us to continue on her quest. Of course most of the flack was directed toward Joy since she was the brains and director of action. She knew the folks, had lived there and had the good abilities to ferret out the facts.
I admire such perseverance despite the many objections and obvious and purposeful hurdles that have been put in her path by people that have agendas to keep the truth hidden. But I would suggest to them it is a futile thing to do and only delays the inevitable. She will not be denied for she knows the public, the wild land fire fighting people, the loved ones and certainly the deceased have the right to have their true story known.
I am as anxious as anyone else on this site to know what more Joy has to post. Thank you Joy for your brave and good heart.
Yes…I finally realized you are right a few years ago and apologized to you for doubting what you think. The truth is…I don’t know the first fuckin’ thing about what any of those chemicals did to my body.
I do know what excessive and continual wild fire smoke did to my body and now I have a terminal pulmonary diesese that is incurable and will shorten my life by an unknown number of years, but the experts agree on one thing…it will shorten my life.
So you know…fuck it, I have gone back to putting as much salt on my Mexican 🇲🇽 food as I want to. 😎
RTS,
I have reason to believe there have been many, many more “friendly fire” events in wildfire history that have ever been documented as such. I believe it happened at Mann Gulch (see Putnam’s research), Battlement Creek (Gary’s account), Loop (my research I’ll share below), AND finally, Yarnell Hill. Let me know which one’s I’ve left out.
Setting aside the multiple operational failures in all instances of crew leaders doing dumb shit like working in box canyons above fires, moving their crews through unburned fuel, hubris, etc, one simply cannot ignore the facts that show real evidence for the possibility of firing operations being the final nail in the coffin of the series of bad decisions that resulted in hotshot fatalities.
Read this:
https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2006-nov-04-me-loopfire4-story.html
I’m going to point out a few key quotes in this article in support of my hypothesis that we have a pattern of friendly fire incidents which also includes the Loop fire.
“On the Loop fire, King believed the biggest danger his men faced was loose rock tumbling down the nearly sheer 2,200-foot-long slope. There was no fire in sight, just light smoke a few ridgelines away.”
If they were upslope they would be able to see if there was fire below them but ‘there was no fire in sight, just light smoke a few ridgelines away?’
“King saw Los Angeles County firefighters working with bulldozers to cut a firebreak at the bottom. He was close enough to hear voices. King heard a helicopter in a canyon to the west. The voices below turned to shouts.”
He saw LA county firefighters working below his Crew? Cutting a fire break with dozers? Were they prepping for a burnout? He was close enough to hear voices. These voices below him he could hear turned to shouts. What were they shouting? What was the reason for the shouting? Is it possible LA County firefighters torched off the bottom of the canyon using their newly constructed dozer line? Is it possible they didn’t know El Cariso was above them when they put fire on the ground and once someone realized what was happening the shouts began?
I think this is the ‘freight train’ like noise El Cariso heard coming their way, a burnout fire racing up the slope. This is just like Mann Gulch, Battlement Creek, and Yarnell Hill.
The Loop, Mann Gulch, Battlement Creek, and Yarnell Hill fires are all examples of friendly fire being the final nail in the coffin of the series of bad decisions that resulted in death to hotshots which were covered up by fire managers so as shield themselves and the system from scrutiny (including prosecution), and as a by-product, increased the odds of its reoccurring in the future. No accountability, no honest reporting, equals no lessons learned.
Sorry. 1st time trying to bold text. I’m a dufus…
Negative on being the bold attempt dufus. Look at my few attempts
Woodsman,
Great article on the Loop Fire. It should definitely be used in wildland fire training sessions to reinforce the hazardous “inherently dangerous” aspect of the job and the potentially fatal consequences from f**king up … or someone else f**king up and you being affected by it.
“King heard a helicopter in a canyon to the west. The voices below turned to shouts.
Then King heard something he had never heard before. It sounded like wind, but it was as loud as a jet engine.
King took a step and noticed the leaves on a bush 30 yards downhill explode like popcorn. At that moment, Leak saw something he had never seen before. The air around him was alive with waves.”
A good anecdotal reference to wearing PPE properly, especially gloves, at the appropriate times. Both are examples of the normalization of deviance. especially the rolled up sleeves. Then again, most of us wore sleeves up on the firelines because that was what was accepted as okay.
“”I screwed up,” he said, looking back on the Loop fire. If only he had been wearing gloves. If only he had rolled down his sleeves.”
“People have said to me, ‘You were just in the wrong place at the wrong time,’ ” he said. “I don’t care what anybody else says…. I blame myself for my crew’s demise. Always have. Always will.
“It’s something I’m not proud of,” he added. “They trusted me.”
Sounds like the GMHS trusting those that were ultimately responsible for their safety and welfare. Misplaced for sure
Over the years, I have heard several older Southern CA HS Supts. say that it was the helicopter rotor-wash that kicked the fire up in the steep, narrow canyon and not a “friendly fire” burnout from below them.
The only fire I can think of where here may have been “friendly fire” firing operation was on the 1994 Mackenzie Fire on BLM land in the rugged Hualapai Mountains near Kingman, AZ. ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hualapai_Mountains )
So GTS the following because I can never get the odious WLFLLC links to post here:
“Mackenzie Fire Entrapment (1994)
Tags and Keywords
Incident Date: 6/1/1994
[State]: Arizona
[Date]: 06/01/1994
[Incident Type]: Entrapment
#FireBehavior #Entrapment #Entrapment #ExtendedAttack #Arizona” ”
And below would be the links to take you there. This fire, in my view, was very similar to the YH Fire in many ways regarding fuels, weather, topography (HUGE bowl), and fire behavior,
These three Prescott HS working working the fire with another SW HS Crew already on the fire. They had made a plan to land in the helicopter black, however, the pilot changed his mind on approach (too much ash?) and landed them in the unburned heavy chaparral.
These three PHS then began hiking through the green and ‘a wall of fire came up out of the drainage below them’ and was going to cut them off. They had took hoof it through the green until they found a large boulder pile, only large enough for three, and crawled in there and wrapped their fire shelters around them and plugged openings as best they could.
( Mackenzie_Investigation_1994.pdf and mackenzie_shelter_deployment_1994.pdf ).
If they would have relied on fire shelters alone without the heat sink properties of the boulders, they all would have died
Woodsman,
How about finishing my train of thought, ey.
So then, the supposition was that the other HS Crew down below lit off the drainage below them because – like the YH Fire and the GMHS in the black – they thought these guys were in the black
RTS,
The official report implied helicopter rotor wash caused the flare up at the Loop but I don’t believe it. I believe LA County fire resources, who were constructing fire line at the base of that slope also fired it off. The “heat waves” was the rising convection current from the fire coming up the hill. According to King there was no fire even close to them, only smoke a couple ridges over. The Socal folks who think that may do si because it was in the report, so that must be it.
Are you now saying that you don’t believe crew7 was overrun by fire coming from firing in the Shrine corridor?
Oh, and I never said anything about a HS crew firing anything off at Loop or Yarnell as a source for an entrapment.
Woodsman,
I am absolutely saying I believe GMHS was overrun by fire coming from firing in the Shrine corridor areas. Nothing about a HS Crew doing any firing there, that I know of.
Never implied there was a HS Crew firing out below on the Loop Fire either. Did I post that anywhere? I think not
I did say there was another HS Crew on the Mackenzie Fire that trapped the PHS in 1994
Copy. Must have misunderstood. Thanks
Charlie,
Doesnt this statement from RTS support what you have been saying about the boulders in the GMHS deployment area being a viable solution?
**
** WAS GRANITE MOUNTAIN EVER CORRECTLY ‘CERTIFIED’ AS A TYPE 1 IHC CREW?
>> On June 21, 2019 at 9:19 am, Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> I have the actual firefighters accounts and ( Jeff ) Andrews was the
>> only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the
>> GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate
>> the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he
>> sad he could not recall the other 2 names…
>>
>> That was because there WAS no other 2.
>>
>> What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division
>> wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak
>> solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember
>> who they were – it never happened.
>>
>> They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they
>> never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.
>>
>> On June 21, 2019 at 7:00 pm, Woodsman said…
>>
>> I would also like to say that if it’s true that GMIHC did not follow
>> the written procedures to gain status as a type 1 hotshot crew then
>> this is a really big deal.
>>
>> In the business we call this “pencil whipping.” Unfortunately it happens
>> with individual firefighter qualifications but if this is the case, that
>> an entire city fire department sponsored handcrew was “pencil whipped” into
>> a bona fide type1 hotshot crew, oh boy, that’s bad.
>>
>> Really, really BAD.
>>
>> These are the kinds of things that get people dead.
>> The rules are in place for a reason.
>>
>> On June 21, 2019 at 8:37 pm, Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I would like to add my two cents worth.
>>
>> One of the significant contributing factors in the destruction of the
>> crew, was their flagrant disregard for the rules. As an organization,
>> there was a general concensus that the ruies just didn’t apply to them.
>>
>> And the truth is, they were right, the normal rules governing how hotshot
>> crews operate didn’t apply to them. I believe this was a part of their
>> crew DNA, they carried to the very end.
Yeah. If true… this is REALLY, REALLY BAD.
– Even worse than Marsh himself “making shit up” on his Prescott employment application(s).
– Even worse than the GM crew cheating on their TIME SHEETS the very day before they burned to death.
– Even worse than GM misreporting serious workplace accidents and/or not reporting them at all.
– Even worse than Donut telling ADOSH what he was TAUGHT… that LCES is ‘hillbilly’ and they were “smarter than that”.
Time for a little ‘refresher’ before this gets discussed further ( which I’m sure it will ).
For crews that are NOT ( somehow ) able to take ‘shortcuts’ and/or ‘game’ the system… here is what the official process of BECOMING a Nationally-Available Type 1 IHC Crew is REQUIRED to be…
National Interagency Fire Center ( NIFC )
STANDARDS FOR INTERAGENCY HOTSHOT CREW OPERATIONS
Chapter 5 – Type 1 IHC Crew CERTIFICATION
https://www.fs.usda.gov/wps/PA_WIDContribution/simplegetfile?dDocName=FSEPRD495259&url=/Internet/FSE_DOCUMENTS/fseprd495259.pdf
——————————————————————————————————-
TYPE 1 IHC CREW CERTIFICATION PROCESS
Crew programs seeking to be certified as an IHC will use the following process:
1) A crew requesting IHC status MUST complete an imbedded review. This review is conducted by a current or past IHC Superintendent ( NOT from the home unit ) who will imbed with the crew seeking IHC status on fire assignment.
The imbedded reviewer WILL provide a WRITTEN evaluation of the crew which includes a recommendation to the crew’s host Geographic Area Operations Committee if the crew is deemed ready for certification review. ( sic: Trainee status ).
2) The requesting crew superintendent and their host unit first line supervisor shall complete a draft of the Annual IHC Mobilization Checklist ( Appendix C ) and the Annual IHC Preparedness Review ( Appendix B ) to ensure the crew’s readiness for certification.
3) When Appendix C and Appendix B are complete, the requesting crew host unit or hosting agency will contact the dispatching GACC who will contact the Geographic Area IHC Steering Committee chair to INITIATE IHC certification.
4) The crew has PEER REVIEW for ALL Initial Interagency Hotshot Crew Certfication Forms ( Appendix E ) and incident performance appraisals completed during incident assignments.
5) Certification TEAM will ( then ) be assembled and a TEAM LEADER identified.
6) Date of certification will be negotiated and confirmed.
a. The host unit is responsible for arranging accomodations and providing logistical support for the Certification TEAM.
b. The Certification TEAM will in-brief with requesting crew superintendent and host unit fire leadership/supervisors to discuss objective and agenda for review.
c. Certification TEAM will meet with requesting crew for introductions and provide a briefing of planned activities and expectations.
d. A THOROUGH REVIEW will be conducted of records, plans, crew evaluations, vehicles, facilities, equipment, safety, training, fitness, qualifications, etc.
e. Short-term individual simulations ( i.e., sand table exercises, readiness ) WILL be conducted.
f. Crew field simulations ( drills ), possibly with other resources involved ( i.e., fireline construction, initial attack organization ) WILL be conducted.
g. Requesting crew will conduct an “After Action Review”.
7) Certification TEAM will ( then ) make a recommendation on certification.
8) Certification TEAM closes out with requesting crew and host unit.
9) Certification recommendation
a. If recommended for certification, the Annual iHC Mobilization Checklist ( Appendix C ) is SIGNED by the TEAM LEADER and FORWARDED to the Geographic Area Operations Committee.
b. If NOT recommended, the Certification TEAM should identify the elements in which the crew did not meet the standard and discuss with the crew superintendent and host unit supervisor how the crew may attain those proficiencies in the future.
10) If the Geographic Area Operations Committee ENDORSES the certification recommendation they will ISSUE the FINAL CERTIFICATION DOCUMENTATION and notify the host agency, crew, and Geographic Area Coordinating Group ( GACG ).
11) Final Certification
a. The CERTIFICATION LETTER is FORWARDED by the GACG to the National Multi-Agency Coordination Group and the National Interagency Coordination Center.
b. If NOT certified the DOCUMENTATION and a LETTER of items not meeting standards will be left with the HOST fire management unit.
———————————————————————————————————–
APPENDIX ‘E’ – TYPE 1 IHC CREW CERTIFICATION FORMS / TASKBOOK
11 ( ELEVEN ) full PAGES of ‘Forms’ containing 138 ( ONE-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-EIGHT ) separate ‘Tasks’ that must be successfully performed and evaluated… with a Qualified Reviewer’s signature and date for EACH TASK.
———————————————————————————————————
Notice how much DOCUMENTATION is REQUIRED to be generated at each and every step of this official Type 1 IHC certification process.
But in Granite Mountain’s case… NONE of that CERTIFICATION DOCUMENTATION has ( as yet ) ever seen the light of day.
All there has ever been to go on are Darrell Willis’ verbal half-baked recollections of how it all went down.
Are you guys sure about all of this? I mean…I saw the movie and there was this old guy who said, “I KNOW YOUR CREW IS HIGH SPEED AND LOW DRAG, BUT HOW LONG CAN YOU KEEP DRIVING THEM LIKE THIS?” And then Eric looked him right in the eye without backing down and said, “AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!! I think they were down on the Coronado. I’m going to go look it up…please stand by!
Nope couldn’t find a clip on that scene, but here is the best scene from the movie and exactly what I used to do.
1. Have pop quizzes about the “Watch Outs!”
2. Grab crewmen and threaten to choke them out if they got in wrong!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=R-XehoKHLOg
Although this is the scene when they got the word that “HAYS” had in fact, certified them to be hotshots.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3hNDnidfk
I think I got that wrong somehow, try this link.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XG3hNDnidfk
Wait, that looks like the same one?
its right, but the ad usually doesn’t play. I would have dropped this by now…but it’s important for the historical record.
And besides that, I think that compared to Darth Vader…I’m doing pretty fuckin’ good with my Anger Management issues. So…fuck off!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5forw5zhkac
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 22, 2019 at 9:15 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Are you guys sure about all of this?
>> I mean…I saw the movie and there was this old guy who
>> said, “I KNOW YOUR CREW IS HIGH SPEED AND LOW
>> DRAG, BUT HOW LONG CAN YOU KEEP DRIVING THEM
>> LIKE THIS?” And then Eric looked him right in the eye
>> without backing down and said, “AS LONG AS IT TAKES!!!
>> I think they were down on the Coronado. I’m going to go
>> look it up…please stand by!
OMG!… you mean there’s no need to keep looking for all the DOCUMENTATION that is SUPPOSED to exist becasue this Type 2 crew got CERTIFIED to be a Nationally-Available Type 1 Interagency Hotshot Crew… because someone actually just FILMED THAT?
Wow. Okay.
And Ooooo… I really liked that scene, too, when the lookout guy was lookouting and the fire was so fast-and-sneaky-and-quiet-like that when he wasn’t lookouting for just one second it crept right up on him and then the guy in the golf cart just appeared and they had to race along getting almost burned up and stuff. That was really cool. I didn’t know golf carts could go that fast.
😎
Wait…what are you trying to say…exactly? Are you suggesting that some of the scenes from the movie MAY NOT be 100% accurate?
Hmmm?
Well… any movie whose entire PLOT is based on establishing, right at the start, that the thousands and thousands of incredibly hard-working men and women who serve on Type 2 firefighting crews are nothing but worthless dogshit HAS to be accurate, right?
Do golf carts really go that fast… or was that just a ‘souped up’ one for the movie?
Facebook wants to know.
What would be the vocabulary term to describe a situation where, as you say, the entire plot of the movie was based on type 2 crews being the lowest form of life AND WE FIND OUT 6 YEARS AFTER THE TRAGEDY THAT GM DIDN’T EVEN QUALIFY FOR IHC STATUS IN THE 1ST PLACE? What the hell is that shit???
Note to dedicated participants of seeking the truth via Investigative Media:
Gird your loins, the apologists are seriously going to lose their collective shit. You’ve been notified. Hold the line, good people! Hold the line!
There are two times per year when things get REALLY weird.
The ongoing annual Arizona Wildfire Academy. ( March )
The ongoing anniversary of the greatest blunder in the history of wildland firefighting.( June 30 ).
Welll..as it turns out, that exchange really did happen in real life obecause I found the clip for it. It’s right at the beginning of this link,
U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crew Boss;
“You guys are type two, so why don’t you what ducers do best, stay in the back and, uh, mop up our shit.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3qHmuRc1LCo
Plus, I learned what a “Deucer” is, which is a term I had never even heard before.
Still checking on the souped up golf cart question by looking for a clip. Maybe I need a new hobbie? Nahhhhh….I’m good.
You left out the first 3 words of what actor Josh Hopkins said to Brolin/Marsh, which was the whole point of the line and, indeed, the SETUP for the entire PLOT of the ‘fillum’.
“WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
And with that single insult to thousands and thousands of men and women who dedicate THEIR lives to wildland firefighting…. this bullshit ‘fillum’ was off to the races.
** Trivia Time **
That ‘scene’ between Josh Brolin ( Marsh ) and actor Josh Hopkins ( USFS Hotshot asshole ) was one of the first one shot for the movie. Hopkins had other committments after having just been ‘killed off’ from the ‘Quanitco’ TV series and he only had that one day to be there.
The scene was shot in your old stomping grounds… at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort on the north side of the Valles Caldera, New Mexico.
Just moments after that scene was shot, the Black Label Media producers posted an Instagram photo of Brolin and Hopkins yucking it up together.
Here is direct link to that ‘Black Label Media’ PUBLIC Instagram photo…
https://www.instagram.com/p/BHAhE4zIx-h/?taken-by=mrjoshhopkins&hl=en
Here is the ‘caption’ that actor Josh Hopkins himself added ( including his spelling mistake ) when he ‘reposted’ the Instagram photo on his own page…
“Just a couple Josh’s fighting Forerst fires”
The VIEW in the BACKGROUND is actually quite a famous one… showing a vista looking SOUTH from that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort and out towards the ‘Valles Caldera’ itself.
They are actually standing on that south-facing grassy slope at the top of the Pajarito Ski Resort in the following ( exact ) spot…
Latitude: 35.886001
Longitude: -106.400990
Just click the following link to see exactly where actors Josh Hopkins and Josh Brolin were standing in the photo above… there on that ‘grassy slope’ on the south-side of the hill at the top of the Pajarito Ski resort…
https://www.google.com/maps/place/35%C2%B053'09.6%22N+106%C2%B024'03.6%22W/@35.8864094,-106.4025137,875m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x0:0x0!8m2!3d35.886001!4d-106.40099
You will see they were standig just a few hundred yards south of the actual ‘ski slopes’ belonging to the Pajarito Ski Resort.
“WE are HOTSHOTS. YOU are Type 2″ ( so go mop up our SHIT )”.
But…you’re not, actually. You’re a city fire department fuels crew. Crew 7 in fact. What…a…fucking…mess…
Is this some kind of bizarre dream and I’m going to wake up any moment now???
“Hey! You’re never going to believe this fucked up wild-assed dream I had last night. Listen to THIS shit!”
Speaking of “The Movie”
Turns out the ‘fundraiser’ that just took place for the Granite Mountain Hotshots Tribute and Learning Center ( the people that just display all the “Station 7” memorabilia ) came up at least 15 seats short for their showing of “The Movie”
They had 90 tickets available ( because the Elks Theatre has limited seating )… and they only sold 75 tickets for the fundraiser.
If the Board ( which includes Jason Lohman, Amanda Lohman’s husband ) hadn’t decided to FORBID Joy and Fred from attending…that would have been 77 tickets sold.
Here’s a recent article about the June 19 ‘fundraiser’…
The Prescott Daily Courier
Fundraiser panel sheds light on the making of ‘Only the Brave’
https://web.archive.org/web/20190623005628/https://www.dcourier.com/news/2019/jun/21/fundraiser-panel-sheds-light-making-only-brave/
And…
There is actually a lesson learned that was recognized and acted upon following this tragedy…
Despite the fact that the city of Prescott through its fire department still owned real estate, equipment, vehicles etc, they apparently decided “fuck that” when faced with the decision of whether or not to continue with “hotshot” program. Lesson LEARNED and a small overlooked victory on the sanity front.
This reminds me of one of my favorite anger management therapy videos (warning – foul language)
https://youtu.be/92i5m3tV5XY
Gary, this meditation video should really help you. You’re welcome.
Oh man…I feel good just having watched it once! Thank you!
Run it on a loop. Trust me. It really works.
Gary said: ” you had me at foul language. “
Thanks…man. I’m going to go follow those links. And you are right, almost all of that entire movie was shot on my old district, the Tesuque, that then was absorbed by the Espanola.
That country is absolutely spectacular and I want to go back there since I haven’t seen it since 1992, or been out in it since 1988. The elk herds in that country are amazing and every herd numbers in the hundreds.
I think a lot of the scenes, like the running scene and cutting the practice line with the Watch Outs quiz was done down by Cochiti Lake, (35.6264970, -106.3152203) which I think is the lake you keep seeing in the background.
From Santa Fe, you drop down La Bajada Hill (The Descent) a couple of thousand feet so you have a vegetation type that is very similar to around Prescott and even kinda like Yarnell.
Of course all of the beautiful country is up by Redonda Peak (35.8719672, -106.5605895) near the the Valle Caldera that was called Valle Grande before it was purchased by a conservancy group with a land swap deal and renamed. when they turned it over to the National Park Service as a new National Preserve.
https://www.nps.gov/vall/index.htm
As the Valle Grande, it had been part of a private ranch and an old Spanish Land Grant called the Baca Land Grant from the Spanish Crown, like 400 years earlier.
I might have told this story before, but during my first week on the District, my boss, Orlando Romero took me all over that country in his USFS 4×4 truck. I have writtten before that all old time USFS FMO’s use their trucks like that to have driving meetings while they check out their districts because that is where they are most comfortable and in their “Happy Place.”
Anyway, as we were approaching Redondo Peak, Orlando told me he wanted to name his new crew the Redondo Hotshots because the Santa Fe Hotshots from several years earlier had been more like an organized criminal gang than a hotshot crew.
It had gotten so bad, that on their last fire, the crew boss had promisef them he was taking them on R&R to get them on the bus in fire camp and then they went to the line. And that was their last few moments as a crew because that didn’t end well.
Anyway…they had been disbanded after that and Orlando (who had the crew on his District back then, was still breaking into cold sweats and having nightmares just thinking about having another Santa Fe Hotshot Crew as was the Regional Office and everyone else who knew the old crew.
But you guys know me, I am you know…bad to the bone, so we had a good…no, a GREAT crew that developed a history and culture of pride and a work ethic that stayed stayed with them because after me, the next three Santa Fe Hotshot Crew bosses had been my squad bosses.
And after them, the following Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Bosses had been their squad bosses. I bet if you go to the Santa Fe Hotshot headquarters today, and tell them it’s Easter, they will immediately start looking for you know…Easter Eggs. And they won’t even know why because it’s in their DNA.
I actually hired two guys from the old crew because they looked like good hands to me, so I heard all of the old stories I wanted to hear. It was pretty bad.
Anyway, I was devastated because I wanted to be the Santa Fe (Holy Faith) Hotshot Crew Boss because that was such an historic name in our country.
So…I turned to Orlando and said, “If you let me name the crew the Santa Fe Hotshots, I promise you you will never be ashamed of our crew. Orlando thought about it for a minute and then agreed to my request just like he gave me everything else I ever ask him for because Orlando wanted a top notch hotshot crew more than just about anything else. Orlando and his wife, Lydia gave me a home on the Santa Fe as their adopted son and I will always be greatful to them for their kindness and support. That was the old USFS where we were more like a family.
The Santa Fe Hotshots are still a highly respected crew in operation to this very day from the Santa Fe and I’m quite sure they have no idea how close they came to being named the Redondo Hotshots. I mean…who the fuck could the Redondo Hotshots have ever become? Am I right?
I know RTS, I know. Technically after me, the first Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss was J.D Killick. But…he didn’t last very long and it didn’t end well for anyone.
So…after that, they went with my boys and they never regretted it or looked back.
I could write an entire chapter and in fact I have, about the pros and cons of promoting from within the crew as opposed to bringing in some new and theoretical highly qualified person from the outside.
My chapter is called. “The Needless Death of Brian Hughes.” And I bet you can guess which side of that argument I come down on?
Although wayyyyy more important than me being bad to the bone, I had my five man former Happy Jack Hotshot Posse with me from day one.
So it was those guys…who really shaped and established the new crews personality. I kinda just sat back in my nice office, because for the first time in my career I actually HAD an office, and you know…kept my focus on the big picture.
And of course, the overall culture in Santa Fe is generally based on, and heavily influenced by the dominant ethnic culture in the area, the Spanish people and that certainly includes the USFS.
And in the Spanish culture, family is more important than in the Anglo culture and so that feeling crept into the workplace much more than it did even in Arizona which does have a strong Mexican and Hispanic subculture, but nothing is like the Spanish culture in northern New Mexico.
And this happened mostly during the holidays (especially Christmas) during District parties and get to togethers for just about any occasion to celebrate something special that were much more common in Santa Fe down at the District level, but not so much at the Forest level.
I imagine that is all gone today and has been gone for a long time. No more USFS Familia.
And this is really getting down into the weeds pertaining to the creation of the Santa Fe Hotshots and my ultimate success.
Every new crew member that was hired had a coefficient value of one when they walked in the door. (If I am using the term coefficient correctly, and if I’m not, I will appreciate being corrected) whereas my posse of former Happy Hack Hotshots had a starting coefficient value of five.
Plus…that value was then increased exponentially because all new guys were just that FNG’s, whereas my posse were the squad bosses, Sawyer and equipment manager.
So..it’s pretty easy to see what followed and why. The Santa Fe Hotshots adopted the personality, work ethic, standards, and attitude of the former Happy Hack Hotshots as they coalesced around that core group.
So…in effect, the Santa Fe Hotshots became the Happy Jack Hotshots except the new Happy Jack Hotshot Crew had a very high percentage of Spanish guys and Pueblo Indians. Although Hopi Indians are Pueblo Indians and close relatives of the Rio Grande Pueblo Indians, but that is just confusing. No Hopi Indians went to New Mexico and in fact, by the time they disbanded the Happy Jack Hotshots, all of the Hopi Indians were gone from the crew even though they still made up most of the rest of the District Fire personnel including our AFMO.
Anyway…I just kinda went with the flow and got a big rep in all of the head sheds because I built a great Santa Fe Hotshot Crew. But the truth is…I didn’t build it…we built it. The Happy Jack Hotshots built the Santa Fe Hotshots from nothing.
So…you can kinda understand why I get pissed of when people talk smack about the Happy Jack Hotshots being disbanded because of the Battlement Creek Fire or for any other reasons other than an administrative luck of the draw.
And in the end…we were lucky. We went from being “A” hotshot crew on the Coconino, only one of four, to being “THE” hotshot crew on the Santa Fe.
And that my friends…was a very big deal in our world and on the Santa Fe National Forest. 🙂
And I should have written, “Anyway…I just kinda went with the flow and got a big rep in all of the head sheds because I built a great Santa Fe Hotshot Crew in a place everyone was afraid they were going to get just another organized criminal gang instead of a hotshot crew.
It’s better when everyone has very low expectations of you because it is much easier to impress them simply by turning out not to be a disaster.
And if you can actually be good at what you do, people then think you are great…just because you aren’t terrible.
Gary’s Secret Success to life and another quotable quote, 😎
Historical Footnote,
All of the Pueblo Indians I am referring to, including the Hopi, belong to the broader Tewa Culture.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tewa
And yes, you are right, I took the easy way out and did a quick cut and paste that left out the most important words. But…that is why you are here however HAL 9000, your job is to mop up my shit and fix my mistakes. So…
Yes…it has been confirmed. That was in fact a very fast machine (type unknown) that was capable of operating in a stealth mode.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=7p9YNPcOJ-4&list=PLgmdcJhFVPM7TV9TnzlJcpIyH5T6vEjkJ&index=12&t=0s
I know it’s all digitized and more than a little cheesy, but I still like it and at least no besr was harmed while filming this scene…so that’s a good thing, am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UCwf5YjEuws
Thanks WTKTT-Your knack of making evidence easily understood by the masses rates expert plus. I can not imagine how the book authors, TV people, Movie Makers, and especially media have missed your input–very essential to the understanding of the terrible loss of life during the Yarnell wildfire of 2013.
Sometimes I wonder if the press is afraid of the truth when it has now been flashed in their eyes like a bright shining star. John Daugherty is indeed a hero for allowing these posts that reveal the actual events and the people with the wisdom and investigative abilities of the likes of WTKTT, Gary, RTS, Woodsman, Joy and others that have no fear of the truth and getting the events rightly reported at Yarnell.
As a simple citizen my understanding and knowledge of why the young men were killed at Yarnell would have never been understood had I not continued with Investigative Media and the many posts and incessant work at getting the facts right here on this site.
Many thanks to John–those events and seeing the demise of so many young fellows will always bring sad emotion upon our hearts –even now I feel the heart break.
Joy and I witnessed much of those events that day- forever to be embedded in our memories. Though I have done little in my capacity to help in understanding the ordeal and revealing the truth, Joy along with the others here have been giants in revealing the details of events that led up to the killing of the GMHS crew.. I hope at some point the general media takes notice of the people and facts they have so selflessly revealed. Many thanks for your efforts.
You left something out.
YOU unselfishly SAVED A LIFE that day.
No one is ever, ever going to forget that.
well- we alerted folks on the Weavers…and remember the lady with all the pets…Sonny did not just save A life but MANY…
Post for Joy: Joy says as copied from her email:
m line
REMEMBER the GMHS motto when the rest comes out…
that’s all.
Duane and Willis, it is time for you both to step up and start talking because the data is out in publication form but the IM world has been hanging on…as well as probably you both but your story and the photo of Alan Sinclair and where he was and etc…it is coming out…let us not forget your family member too…I will be addressing it all…
Start talking…otherwise me and my contributing folks will…
https://eidolon.pub/on-being-and-seeming-good-8f779ab34342
h t t p://www.inrebus.c o m /index.php?entry=entry080205-161446
I have no idea what Joy and others on this program have to reveal but it is likely to stun the wild land fire community and the public. I am not sure they can handle the truth but I can and the pulic and wild land fire fighting community must have this information–the public has paid dearly for it and the wild land fire fighting community and loved ones have paid in blood, seat and tears. It can not be denied to any of the offended parties.
19 were lost in the fire, 200+ more have been lost in Yarnell, but without the truth I fear we are all lost. I heard you Joy… I am here …thank you for your inspiration and giving me the courage.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 21, 2019 at 6:14 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Well… I just had an exchange of information with Taylor Thompsom.
>> Which went about as you would expect it to since he thinks of
>> himself as the Perry Mason of wannabe wild land firefighters.
>>
>> I finally had to break down and tell him the truth. I never
>> hoped to win him or anyone else in the Lohman camp over,
>>
>> I just wanted to go into the middle of her safe zone and take
>> a big dump while making sure everyone knows I think she is one
>> CRAZY, PYCHO, LYING BITCH who is trying to re-write history, but
>> I’m not going to let that happen because current and future wild
>> land firefighters lives depend on it.
>>
>> I also managed to demonstrate to him and lots more of Lohman’s
>> enablers and keyboard knights that I’m not hiding anywhere. I’m
>> really easy to find, they have my address.
>>
>> But I’m not going to even engage with NEIL or anyone else if they
>> email me back. I proved my point and I feel better now…thank you.
>>
>> Actually, Taylor is a very sharp young man.
>>
>> I told him I hope he is either going to law school or is planning on it.
>>
>> I learned something very, very, very interesting from him though.
>>
>> He… ( and I can assume many other Lohman supporters ) isn’t a dummy.
>>
>> He knows she never received threats to snipe family members or any
>> of her other bullshit lies.
>>
>> He is just supporter of hers because of who she is.
>>
>> The grieving widow of a dead WLF.
>>
>> So… I guess on some level…I have to admire that attitude…maybe?
>>
>> Nawwwwww, that’s BULLSHIT,
>>
>> He’s a pretty sharp kid though!
>>
>> Oh… and one more thing.
>>
>> Taylor said he knows a lot of WLF who know me, but they all say I’m a bad guy.
>> But…I think we need to look at the positive here….they know who I am.
>> So… I have been gone for a long time, but apparently I haven’t been forgotten!
>> What more could any beaten down, washed up old guy with COPD ask for?
>> Some young guys remember me!
>>
>> I told you I am a legend in my own mind!
>>
>> This whole experience was definitely un Oddball like.
>> So… I obviously have a lot of work to do to achieve my
>> aspirational goal of becoming Oddball like.
>>
>> Here is Taylor’s actual quote,
>>
>> “Well, you’re just making yourself look like a bitch.
>> A lot of firefighters know you… but not for the reasons you
>> might think. The consensus is that you’re just batshit crazy.”
>>
>> Pretty good…right?
So let me see if I have this right.
Some guy who is all “give me some names and let me and my firefighter friends show them the REAL world” up-in-face because of some delusional post months ago on some hotshot widow’s social media ‘safeplace’ actually turns out to simply be some Facebook dweeb who is just patronizing same-said widow and KNOWS any talk about anyone shooting anyone with ‘snipers’ is complete bullshit… and in the process of doing all that now finds out that one of the members of this ‘group’ that same-said widow keeps whining about is actually this famous living Hotshot that he’s heard of many times and knows isn’t called the JACKHAMMER for nothing?
Okay… well… glad that’s all straightened out.
Onward and upward.
Yep…you got that pretty much straight. I have been having a hard time coping with all of this new information that has been coming to light man because of the work Joy and the Woodsman (and maybe Fred too) has been doing, so I just took a beak for some de-stressing by going to look for a fight with the “Prescott Delusional Club Of Amanda Enablers” and I feel more relaxed now. So…
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XKVmpJaMffM
But yeah,..they are really a fucked up group of people on the whole. I’m still engaged with Taylor though, here is his latest quote and you will really be able to see the scope of the problem.
“I do exist though 😂 right here. Just leave Amanda and her family alone man. Theres no reason for you or anyone else to come at her like that. If you want to change the way things are done to save lives… you’re going about it the wrong way. Seems like you might have a little bit of jealousy because a movie wasnt made about you or your life as a firefighter? Just a thought. You and I both know that the only thing that killed those boys was the weather. Theres nobody to point fingers at.”
Gary,
Thank you for following through on all this on FB with these “followers,” the majority of which have absolutely NO clue of what they’re reading and certainly no clue of what they’re talking about.
Like this Taylor guy and his comment that “You and I both know that the only thing that killed those boys was the weather. Theres nobody to point fingers at.”
Are you f**king kidding me? It was only the weather killed them?
And there’s nobody to point fingers at?
How about those GMHS supervisors that were responsible for the safety and welfare of their men, the ones that trusted them to do the right thing by adhering to those battle-tested WF Rules (10 & 18 & LCES)
And of course, you being jealous because they made no movie about you.
Keep up the good work
Yes…that was the point, even someone who is really a pretty sharp young man is still pushing the theory that the only thing that killed the crew was the weather. Here is my response to him.
I think you are missing the point of why I entered Amanda’s social club of enablers in the first place. I was leaving her alone until somebody emailed me the link to a whole bunch of comments that a whole bunch of people had made about me and my friends, namely Joy and Fred. Now…just go back and read those comments from my position and I think you will be able to understand what my original issue was. Now…I know somebody, probably her new husband advised her to not actually name names, and most of the hints were intended to point at Joy and Fred, but mostly Joy. Amanda really has it in for Joy for some reason. I think you also can understand that the fever pitch from some of her supporters was growing more strident with each passing day. And sometimes if unstable or fanatical supporters are pushed hard enough, they will engage in direct action and I don’t want to see Joy get hurt. I would much rather anyone who would go after Joy to physically harm her (or Fred) would come after me instead. Mostly because I crave conflict, action, stress, and danger. And those things have been hard to find in retirement so sometimes I have to go looking for them to get shots of adrenaline to feed the monkey. I’m just being honest with you. I will never go after someone first because I am a good guy who devoted my life to doing the right thing. But I love it when bad people come at me because I might have the opportunity to defend myself. On a side note, I also didn’t like the barrage of insults in addition to the threats that were being engineered, encouraged and created with Amanda’s encouragement and egging on while she did her best to whip up her crowd of support into a frenzy until I entered everyone’s safe place and said, “You talkin’ about me? You must be talkin’ about me because I don’t see anyone else here!” That put everyone on notice there was a price to pay for their crowd whipping into a mob frenzy. I also read a lot of comments from people who wrote, “why would anyone do that?” And the truth is, no did do that. Amanda was making lies up to in order to whip her crowd of enablers into a frenzy, maybe with a dangerous element if someone decided to take it a step further to direct action. Which takes us back to me. If someone wants to engage in direct action, they now have my address because I don’t want them to go looking for Joy or Fred. I am bad to the bone. I went looking for drug smugglers to fight in Spec Ops just because I was bored in when I certainly didn’t have to go. Being a hotshot ruined me for life. It made me into a righteous danger junkie and then they took away my drug leaving me feeling like any drug addict who has been deprived of their drug of choice. Do you believe anyone threatened to take a sniper rifle to the Park dedication ceremony and SHOOT the GMIHC family members? Can’t you understand just how crazy, threatening and very very, very dangerous that lie is? How can YOU support Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman knowing that she did that? As far as a movie being made about me? One was with me as the star…it plays over and over again inside my head every day while I relive my career to generate faux adrenaline to feed the monkey on my back. I wish you could see what I see. I think if you did, you would support me in recognition for all of the things I did for you and everyone else. It was one hell of a ride and I got to see the elephant, but it came at a terrible price. Which takes us back to my original point. I don’t recommend anyone going down the path I did. It really wasn’t worth it….kid. 😎
I don’t know why it copied all in caps…because I wasn’t YELLING!
Whoops, when I pasted it this time, it didn’t come out all in caps. I think I need to go back to bed. All of this new information is really complicating my already overly complicated book plot. I might be really fucked now!
Maybe everyone should just STOP finding out new information…man!
And FYI…I specify “righteous danger” because you know…I not a fucking idiot to take up BASE jumping even if I could get a big enough chute.
No…the danger with the corresponding adrenaline shot has to be for a higher purpose that is bigger than me, bigger than any one person or thing. It’s very complicated and like everything else here on this thread…heavily nuanced.
Other WLF, especially hotshots understand.
Mr. Taylor,
Lead, follow or get out of the way. There is no jealously here. I would be embarrassed if a movie like that was made about my crew. I refuse to watch it because i don’t believe in the act of making money on the backs of those who died in service, even under the veneer of honoring and providing comfort to survivors based on hero worship.
What many of us are trying to accomplish here is finding out the truth and the whole truth of the circumstances which led to the death of almost the entire Crew 7 of Prescott Fire Department, an unprecedented tragedy in wildfire fatalities. Nobody is going after anyone from this side of the equation. I suggest you look closely at those on your side if you want to see those going after people.
The truth and the whole truth is our goal. While we consider the sensitivity of the matter and its effects on the loved ones, many of us here believe that only the whole truth being told can truly honor those who gave their lives in service AND by being known, will increase the likelihood of no one suffering a similar fate in the future. Some people, such as yourself, believe that we should let it go. I believe that if we did that it would mean that each of the 19 lives were lost for nothing. I’m not going to give up on those men or my desire for honesty, accountability and the whole truth being known for maximum lessons learned and future accident prevention.
You do realize that Superintendent Brian Frisby of the Blue Ridge hotshots was there, one of the few that risked his life locating crew 7, and is practically begging for changes to the staff ride due to human factors that day being “off the charts?” Frisby is competent. I know because I’ve met him in our work environment.
Unfortunately real healing, and coping with the aftermath, has been stunted by the absence of full disclosure. The families and all firefighters deserve the truth. I want everyone to get the help they need and to be at peace as much as possible. My opinion is that peace will come from truth and full disclosure. The withholding of truth has come with unnecessary harm to all of us in order to protect a few. This is not right. This is wrong.
And to those that will be exposed in the coming months: I pray you get the help you need and accept the consequences that come with your actions or inactions. I believe in time this will be the only way for you to have peace yourselves. Please do not harm yourselves as this will only continue the tragedy which should have been dealt with years ago. You all deserve a better life than the burden of concealed truth.
Lead, follow or get out of the way.
And just FYI, his last name isn’t Taylor, that’s his first name. His name is Taylor Thompson and he lives out in Prescott Valley. I paid a few dollars and had a background check run on him (old habit).
https://m.facebook.com/Taylor.G.Thompson?fref=nf&rc=p
If you go to here,
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.748269025266283/2169813189778519/?type=3&theater
and then scroll down acways, you will find his original comments where he suggested “we” be outed because he has some firefighters friends who would like to take care of business. Which means…you know…kill or epseverly best Joy and Fred.
I hope the fuck they come looking for me first because I am am a SHEEPDOG!
https://rogueriverinn.com/
Room number 5.
Whoops…
Which mean, you know…kill or SEVERELY BEAT Joy and Fred.
Oh…and one more thing. If you scroll down the page past Taylor’s post, you will find tye one from Maclean’s crack, impartial, professional research specialist Holly NEIL.
The very same done NOTHING, knows NOTHING NEIL who imagineered the bogus P-Line and Stob Theory while hearing imaginary voices in radio transmissions,
https://m.facebook.com/hendersonneill?fref=nf&rc=p
NEIL is a real fuckin’ sweetheart!
Yep.
During all the lying and the trash-talking on that particular social media thread… author John Maclean’s “research assistant” jumped in and was just CHEERLEADING the trash-talk with this PUBLIC comment…
—————————————————————
Holly Henderson Neill
Only The Brave can deal with disgusting trolls!
Keep on smiling Eric, we’ve got your back.
—————————————————————-
If author John Maclean still wants his book about the Yarnell Hill Fire to even have the remotest chance of being considered an ‘objective’ and/or ‘unbiased’ look at the Yarnell Hill Fire and the Granite Mountain tragedy… he should think about ‘distancing’ himself from this Holly Neill person ASAP.
Yep,,,you got that right. I think Holly NEIL is one seriously fucked up, pycho and crazy bitch who is such an enabler, she is just as dangerous as Mrs. Lohman.
Not to mention, she doesn’t know SHIT FROM SHINOLA when it comes to WLF, because she has never done a fucking thing or held any position of any significance in her entire WLF “Career?”
I’m sure you have noticed they never list any of the jobs she actually held and for how long, much less list her actual fire experience. They just always kind of GLOSS over it with some very generalized and grandiose statements.
Of course they backed off that somewhat after we here on this thread (Okay, mostly me) started making fun of her experience because they kept calling her a “RETIRED” WLF with the NPS after just 11 years.
And everyone knows. that when it comes to FIRE powerhouses, the NPS never makes the roster. They just don’t have the land base or land mass to generate much fire activity.
I mean…they do have Yellowstone (and I was part of fighting the big Yellowstone Fires of 1988) Sequoia Kings Canyon, the Redwoods, Whiskey Town, but it’s very small, the Santa Monica Mountains, Yosemite, and for some reason, they have burned off Bandolier and everything around it including the City of Los Alamos…TWICE, and let’s see…I think that’s about it because the Olympic National Park is big enough to burn, but you know…it’s a rain forest, and so is the Grand Cayon, but you know…it’s the GRAND CANYON.
Anyway…NEIL doesn’t know, nor has she done ANYTHING of any WLF importance or significance in her entire fuckin’ life.
And just in case anyone thinks I am being a little harsh regarding Holly NEIL, let me break it down for you and then tell me what you think?
1. Amanda Lohman has accused the people on her enemies list of wanting to, planning to, or actually doing, I don’t how far her deranged mind actually got, of using sniper rifles to murder GMIHC family members at the dedication ceremony for the new park.
2. I don’t know everyone who is on Amanda Lohman’s Crazy Town enemies list, but I think it’s everyone who participates on the IM blog and I know it includes me.
3. Holly NEIL has given carte blanche support for Amanda Lohman by her comment on her Eric Marsh Foundation blog.
Therefore, using basic deductive reasoning,
1. Lohman accused her enemies of planning on and wanting to muder GMIHC family members.
2. Lohman believes I am her enemy and I am on her enemies list.
3. Therefore, Lohman has accused me of planning on and/or wanting to murder GMIHC family members.
4. NEIL is in agreement with and supports everything Lohman has said and especially those things she has published on her Eric Marsh blog which includes her accusations about me wanting to or planning to murder GMIHC family members.
5. Therefore, NEIL has accused me of wanting to and or planning on murdering GMIHS family members using a sniper rifle at the ceremony dedicating the new park.
What part of that do I have wrong? And there is nothing I can say or write about NEIL that will even come close to her accusing me of wanting and or planning on murdering GMIHC family members.
But, as time goes by…I am going to do what I can to set the record straight and hold NEIL accountable in the public forum for her CRAZY, PYCHO AND BITCH ACCUSATIONS AGAINST ME, while I try to make sure everyone knows what kind of person she is.
Oh…and one more thing. Was NEIL smart enough to think all of that through?
Probably not, but how stupid NEIL is isn’t my problem…it’s hers. And now…it’s also Maclean’s.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 22, 2019 at 10:32 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Mr. Taylor,
>>
>> Lead, follow or get out of the way.
>>
>> ( Snip. See entire comment above ).
Incredibly well said.
Could NOT have said it better myself.
If this ongoing discussion ever needed an ‘About’ page… that would be it.
WTKTT,
I don’t know what to say. Thank you
No… thank YOU.
When the children of those men who were lost in Yarnell all grow up and discover that THIS conversation has ALWAYS been going on and was ALWAYS trying to discover exactly WHY they had to grow up without their father(s)…
…I hope they come across your post above FIRST.
Woodsman,
Well said.
“I suggest you look closely at those on your side if you want to see those going after people.”
And here we go from the EMF right from the hypocritical EM herself:
“Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to.
Don’t use your computer to spread pain. Use your light to spread love.”
Thank you
Thank you, RTS. I actually believe the unintended consequences of the latest crap, replete with veiled threats from the agenda-driven apologists, is serving to unite us here in the quest to honor crew7’s memory the best way we can: with the truth. I feel it.
I am aware that RTS has been the victim of on-line bullying. I have know RTS for a really long time. And I have never known a man to have more integrity, honor, and a greater desire to do the right things for the right reasons with an old fashioned, Eagle Scout, and religious component to his motivations than RTS does.
I don’t agree with everything RTS says, does or thinks because we are quite different as people go, which I think is unusual because we have very similar backgrounds and interests.
But…I do unequivocally support RTS as a good person who will always do the right thing just as I will and of that, you can rest assured.
RTs has written, “Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to”
And I agree that he is strong enough to handle it, but I don’t think he should have to either because it’s WRONG!
Gary,
Clarification needed here
And here we go from the EMF right from the hypocritical AM herself:
“Online bullying and threats are not ok. You have to know that words matter. Watch what you say, what you write. I am absolutely a victim of online bullying. I am strong enough to handle it but I should not have to.
Don’t use your computer to spread pain. Use your light to spread love.”
This is what she wrote not me
Woodsman,
This is attempt #5 to post this, so going to the top.
Please tell us how you really feel about the feckless FoF. Here’s a link that shows the “investigations” and “reviews” that he participated in. When you read them you’ll quickly realize WHY they continue to utilize him in their alleged “Investigations” and “reviews” because he is a Party Liner all the way.
( https://www.firelinefactors.com/resources#investigations )
Please spend the time to think about what you read below and how they are attempting to pervert our language and the way we think and rationalize things.
The Saddleback Learning Review was interesting revelation about their thought processes. I will admit that I do like their quote from Boorstin:
“ The greatest obstacle to discovery is not ignorance! It is the illusion of knowledge. ” Daniel J. Boorstin
On page 3 is “The Purpose for the Learning Review” with a subtitle: “If we don’t find fault, what can we do?” Fair enough …
Now comes the real spin and obfuscation
“The aim of this Learning Review is to understand the rationale for the actions/decisions involved in the incident and then, if possible, to learn from them. Achieving this goal requires a deliberate effort to place decisions and actions in the detailed context in which they occurred, including an undertaking of the pressures faced by all those involved in the incident.
“There were a variety of actions/decisions [Footnote 9] during the Saddleback Incident (P. 14) which are likely present in many organizations, or work environments. p. 14
“[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
Are you f**king kidding me? “There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both”
WTF is up with that? Taking two separate and distinct words with separate and distinct meanings and we can make them mean the same thing?
This is better known as Orwellian Doublespeak and the worst of it is the Doublethink that is taking place which entails grasping on to two opposing thoughts as being true at the same time.
“This action/decision “word” is addressed again twice on page 15 regarding engaging the fire and building fireline.”
Actions is mentioned once more – alone – on page 16. “Cultural emphasis on efficiency include concerns about how actions are perceived by others, …”
In the “Sensemaking Discussion” on page 20, “we know that the actions taken by this crew do not seem out of the ordianry. Several [FFs} interviewed post-incident felt like these actions were routine and that they would have done the same thing. ”
“The language of firefighting appears to support routine action (and vice versa).” pp. 20-21 Not sure what they’re referring to here.
On page 28 we have the “Proposed Study of the Saddleback Incident Within an Incident.”
“Yet the medical evacuation presents further decisions and actions , from many levels of the organization, which may result in many operational learning opportunities.”
“Doctrine incorporates principles that form the foundation of human judgement decisions , action[s] , and behavior. …” Tom Harbour, Director, Fire and Aviation Management, USFS p. 32 I took the liberty of adding an “s” in the word “actions” because of the plural “decisions.”
I hope you spent the time to think about what you read here and how they are attempting to pervert our language and the way we think and rationalize things in all these reports with this kind word and meaning manipulation.
CORRECTION
“[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision could not be separated, as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
This footnote #9 should read accordingly with only one “could not be separated”: ““[FN 9] There were occasions in the Review where the difference between actions and decisions could not be separated, thus the term action/decision as it could have been either one or a combination of both” p.14
This is how a cut and paste of the passage appears below, so I hopefully get a pass on my editing:
There!were!occasions!in!the!Review!where!the!difference!between!actions!and!decisions!could!not!be!separated,!thus!the!term!action/decision!was!used,!as!it!could!have!been!either!one,!or!a!combination!of!both.!
RTS,
Yes. Thank you. I’m studying your post but I believe it’s more obfuscation by design. Some of these cats actually believe they’re doing good work while really serving as useful pawns. It’s a damn shame.
Concrete evidence of the brainwashing is the extremely disrespectful response you received at that conference (by someone who was not being addressed at the time) following your salient and relevant point in which you stated:
“One of the missing data points is THE TRUTH in all of these accident/fatality investigations.” The absence of conscience is truly mind boggling.
Talk about going against the grain. Good job standing up for what’s right.
Woodsman,
Thanks My Friend. And if you listen carefully, you should hear self-proclaimed YH Fire “Lead Investigator Brad Mayhew respond “Bull Shit Fred” if they left it in the video.
And he opted out of his presentation being recorded which is his prerogative
That’s the exact response I was talking about. Came through loud & clear. It was the catalyst to my rant last night…that I apologized for and put myself in timeout…which Joy told me not to…so I gave myself the benefit of the doubt and let myself out.
And I thought that brad mayhew was the lead HUMAN FACTORS contributing investigator to the Yarnell Hill fire SAIT?
I wonder if he’s thought about Frisbys letter claiming “The human factors that day were off the charts?” Frisby seems to be practically begging to overhaul the staff rides to increase the odds of true lessons learned.
I would also like to say that if it’s true that GMIHC did not follow the written procedures to gain status as a type1 hotshot crew then this is a really big deal. In the business we call this “pencil whipping.” Unfortunately it happens with individual firefighter qualifications but if this is the case, that an entire city fire department sponsored handcrew was “pencil whipped” into a bona fide type1 hotshot crew, oh boy, that’s bad. Really, really BAD. These are the kinds of things that get people dead. The rules are in place for a reason.
And I would like to add my two cents worth. One of the significant contributing factors in the destruction of the crew, was their flagrant disregard for tye rules. As an organization, there was a general concensus that tye ruies just didn’t apply to them.
And the truth is, they were right, the normal rules governing how hotshot crews operate didn’t apply to them. I believe this was a part of their crew DNA, they carried to the very end.
And on a side note, I was officially on two different hotshot crews for ten years. But…I was actually on 10 different hotshot crews because each crew develops a unique personality depending on almost countless variables that certainly change significantly from year to year, even if the personnel stays largely tye same. At least that was my experience.
Woodsman,
Exactly, obfuscation by design and attempting to shift the way we think about these wildland fire fatalities.
Words mean things.
“To respect words and their conveyance of reality is to show respect to the very foundation of reality. To manipulate words is to seek to manipulate truth and to instead choose falsity and illusion over reality. The manipulation of words is itself a violent act. …”
Cummins, M.: Words: Pieper’s “Abuse of Language, Abuse of Power”. The Alternative Path (2011)
( https://thealternatepath.org/2011/05/25/words-piepers-abuse-of-language-abuse-of-power/ )
This ongoing, unsettling truth manipulation has occurred with all wildfire SAIT Reports, Reviews, and the like where WFF were killed by fire at least since the 1949 Mann Gulch Fire.
BULLSHIT, FRED! I kid. I kid.
Yep. Totally agree.
I hope they don’t let that guy that wrote all that crap on a fire. If he doesn’t know how to say anything in plain language so you know he is walking around confused of mind.
Certain people are good at talking or writing and saying nothing. Politicians are expert at that–befuddle the public with elocution–that guy is only fooling himself and a few dummies that are as confounded as he is.
That is a good point Woodsman –and it is amazing that someone would pay his salary to put out such gibberish–and even a wonder that these people think everyone is fooled by their BS.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD POCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** GM FAMILY MEMBERS WERE THREATENED BY PRESCOTT FIREFIGHTERS
Still ‘unpacking’ things contained in the PODCASTS recently published
by GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft’s mother, Deborah
Pfingston, and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood.
In PODCAST Episode 6, Deborah Pfingston reveals that she and other
GM family members have, in fact, been ‘threatened’ ( on multiple
occasions ) by Prescott-area FIREFIGHTERS.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfongston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood.
PODCAST Episode 6: Hiking the Path
Published: April 8, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-6-Hiking-the-Path-e3m5su
In Episode 6, Part 4…
———————————————————————————————————–
Deborah Pfingston: Oh… the stories are just… you know… we’ll talk about it and people will say “You gotta be kidding me” and I’m like “No. no.” And, you know, something again that just came to mind… you know… when I’m talking about that is how, at one point, I had firefighters walk up to me and say “You need to stop”. “YOU need to stop.” “You’re crazy. The guys were heroes and you’re gonna tarnish them.” It’s like… no I’m not.
Doug Harwood: Right.
Deborah Pfingston: I had one firefighter go to Juliann, Andrew’s widow, my beautiful daughter-in-law, and say “Your mother-in-law’s insane, and you should tell her to be quiet.”
…
…
Doug Harwood: Well… I’ve never… I’ve never had anything said to me, but… uh… I’ve heard it from other people.
Deborah Pfingston: Yeah. That’s how we first lost our very first liason that was… was assigned to our family is her husband was a firefighter and he was told “You get them in line. You tell them to shut up. You tell them to quit the investigation.”… and she was SCARED to be with us anymore.
——————————————————————————————————
Garyyyyyyy….Good morning,sir-
I have been having renal concerns and I had planned to sleep in but I kept hearing my cell go off and I usually have it on mute or off but last night I was visiting with Gary P. and right after a person out of Canada we talked about the importance of his views… That was a much needed moment to my life.
I elevate and rest and try to rid of these odd pockets of fluid that began in the renal flank area but has spread all over.
This fire has been difficult for all who never met the Firefighters or us and in hearing their accounts I encourage their participation here – for the human factors perspective
Speaking of human factors-
Mr. Willis and Mr. Steinbrink-
Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?
it will not matter what rabbit they pull out of a hat when it comes to Billing/Finances and my public records requests over time – I have the actual firefighters accounts and Andrews was the only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he sad he could not recall the other 2 names…that was because there was no other 2.
What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember who they were – it never happened. They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.
Andrews went to Oregon and was the FMO for Prescott at that time. Willis grabbing credit as he has for the name and actions for Granite Mountatin Hotshots than should be accountable for the truth to be told all the way – There was no record I will see because there was none so if I get one now- this will be classic – we will see.
Now for Gary- like I told John Truett – I could throw many under the bus with all the data I got but I am not in this for that but you are right the now named Social Media pieces as you named us to there= Lawyers state she was just right under the radar because she did not name us but now that you did and if any of her followers who said very serious ill actions or her carry it on and she engages then we have a case.
I am shocked to wake up to messages saying GO READ WHAT GARY WROTE ABOUT YOU – I did and in that Gary – yes, there is some very inappropriate behaviors and distasteful concerns and I have always been praying for Amanda Beno Marsh Lohman since the time she greeted me at the 2018 Arizona Wildfire Academy warmly saying Hi I’m Amanda and I replied Hi, I am Joy Collura and the way she shifted and moved and puffed up and heated up her tone and said InvestigativeMEDIA Joy and I replied Yes and she said I got rid of Fred and you are not welcome here and I replied IM is a tool for many of us to go to and discuss and hash out and yes it has its layers of harshness yet it is just a tool to get to the truth She was getting in body language looking to create a crowd in her body language and voice tone so I just went to class but I have tried for years to speak with her because it is being glazed all through the Fire Industry she keeps telling people she has a restraining order against me and that is false. In 2014 I was being bullied by certain areas locally and county and even in December 2014 a Sgt called me apologizing for her part in it and spoke of the sensitivities of the situation and a few weeks later my surveillance cameras had a nice man- our local deputy – having to serve me a Injunction for Harrasment and to get me to not attend public meetings and not be on the Weaver Mountains and to stay away from the meeting that especially was tied to Karen Fann and as well stay away from Amanda Beno Marsh and in that court case you removed off your blog Gary…I never thought I JOY A COLLURA would ever be sitting in a court room ever but there I was and in seizure phase too and I only pulled Dr Ted Putnam to the stand because I saw the favoritism and body languages and heard fabrications and I felt a seizure come on and I needed a distraction because if this town is viewing me such way and if I have a seizure then I go to this town’s hospital – no thanks so yeah Dr Ted Putnam was never a planned event but when Willis got on the stand and stated third party data I showed the emails where Jerry Pfingston stated he most look forward to a certain hike. This whole thing of them distracting the world – I have always said who I am…where I live and stand and NEVER been anonymous….Firmly and fairly stood up with my full name. My teachers growing up and Pastors growing up taught me a lot about hope and they helped build and mold and mentor me and one thing I always had was one good left swing and integrity. My father worked for Sheriff Joe and in that phase I learned what corruption was and how it can come about and it begins with hiding truths and I left my father in my teens time to time to teach him lessons on integrity all the while he kept living the lie. When the officers would call me as a teen an ask me to cover – I hung up on them – I will not be a part in anyone’s cover ups. Every person who has entered my path even if it was for a text message for a moment to help me feel I am human- There was a Soap Opera Star I use to hang out with a lot and she seem to have a lot of boyfriends and she was using my name on social media pretending I was her as she wrote people and she asked me to do something for her – I did this project (unknowingly) – and that was an isolated time timed to back East…and they know who they are and that was what it was…but even that isolated moment taught me to grow not shut down and I am blessed to have had the people God has shown me from the highest level of society to the homeless man Leo in Aguila…who I still visit and hug as ripe smelling as he does smell…Yet Willis, it is time to come forward and speak up. The legal system can only help so far with the soul but it also takes Duane talking too and his family…This is not all on Willis…It is time.
You boys, You need to understand when you all had to have someone shadow ERIC SHANE MARSH the first few years because of his lack of leadership experience and knowledge and his edge for doing certain areas- it is not a disservice to him but honoring him so not one more person has to face what he did or other loved ones…
The time is now.
You have to understand what is happening is happening…I already told all of you I was never doing a book or movie even though I was offered that – this is about giving the loved ones the facts – not a story.
I am here and on my blog with the names of people that were or are in my life…go fact check on me.
Mr. Feller knows I came from tough upbringing but I was a real good kid. My pastors know I came from tough area and yet they filled my souls with their love and mentoring and showed me God is good all the time…
Now I will not tell you Gary how to FEEL about Amanda but for me with all the texts I have on her and others – I feel she has manipulated and orchestrated and controlled her atmosphere the best she could and yet I always felt I did not have a husband perish so I allowed that emotion – it did not get legal until she said the Sniper comments and the awful stuff that really were FALSE…then I felt she was mentally unhealthy and not relying on the Lord and Spiritual Warfare was in her life…I always will be here no matter what to uplift her not react but I will forward you Gary what just happened this week…I was gonna ask for it to be private but I from this point forward if I speak here or behind the scenes – no more IN PRIVATE not even to wtktt- from this day forward every moment I am working to get the data out…also please do not call me anyone…it is obvious by recent conversations someone at this point is wiretapping my calls. Too many symptoms. Too many.
Also this ridiculous moment where Neill and others put Dugger Hughes letter (Horseshoe2 Fire) out there saying LOOK Hughes complimented the GMHS – that was general letter that goes out – those are standard boilerplate that all the teams and all the regions and resources no matter how good or bad their performances – just a feel good thing…
Stop redirecting…stop the distractions…stop saying staff rides are for lessons learned but all the while will not adapt the facts in them…STOP IT!
The whole fluid thing…TMI! The rest…I didn’t like what I read about me. Finish The Fight! How do you think I earned the resume I have! I never backed down from any man or fire! And I’m not going to start now. You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs, you…you are an egg. You can either be proactive or collateral damage…your choice. I choose to be proactive. Remember what my ole jumoer buddy always heard about me, “I was the wrong guy to fuck with.” You can run, but you can’t hide. Everybody knows who that CRAZY LYIN’ BITCH LOHMAN IS TALKING ABOUT AND SHE HAD BETTER QUIT TALKING ABOUT ME! Go check your fuckin phone now and see what it says.
Oh…and one more thing. As usual I only read about 10% of what you wrote because most of it didn’t make any sense and I couldn’t follow it. So…if I missed something important, please try to summarize without the riddles.
And if you don’t want to be involved, go back to your desert walking where you belong. This is my world.
Oh…and one more thing, if that CRAZY PYCHO BITCH’S (Amanda Lohman) friends and supporters want to meet the “other” Gary, just keep threatening me. Most people don’t like meeting the other Gary.
I don’t even know what this means, “Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?”
If it means FUCK John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair, then yes…I have been pure to them?
Oh…and I have been warned to be careful and not piss off Mr. Amanda Lohman, because he is former law enforcement. FUCK THAT LITTLE MANGINA MAN, I KNOW WHO HE IS…HE IS A LITTLE MANGINA MAN!
He has my home address, I don’t have his, I will be here all week. Anybody who comes to see me though, had better bring their fuckin’ A Game.
I didn’t like any of the shit I read last night that has been provoked by that PYCHO CRAZY LYIN’ BITCH AMANDA LOHMAN and I like it way less this morning after sleeping on it.
Or…I will be back in the Southwest soon enough if anyone doesn’t want to drive all tye way to Oregon.
Joy,
I Yam What I Yam & Dats All What I Yam!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LzHmunZxJeM
😎, Now..shut the fuck up!
Although I have been trying to work on my “People Skills.”
So, shut the fuck up…please.
Oh…and one more thing. I have been warned to be careful about Mr. Amanda Lohman’s FAMILY!
Okay…I give up. Who the fuck is that little mangina man’s family? Are they the Fuckin’ Mangina Family whose Mangina Son married that CRAZY PYCHO LYING BITCH, the former Mrs. Amanda Beno Marsh?
The CRAZY PYCHO LYING BITCH was was married to the terminal fuck up Eric Marsh, who killed his crew because he was CRIMINALLY NEGLIGENT. THAT FUCKING TERMINAL LOSER AND FUCK UP?
Do I have that about right?
Does that littie Mangina Man’s family know who I am?
I want to make the only issue that concerns me perfectly clear.
The Granite Mountain Hotshots we’re coughing up chunks of their charred lungs so hard while they were being burned to death that they dislocated their tongues from the back of their mouths. And when they were found, their blackened, charred and swollen tongues were hanging out of their mouths.
Any questions? Good.
Well…I just had an exchange of information with Taylor Thompsom. Which went about as you would expect it to since he thinks of himself as the Perry Mason of wannabe wild land firefighters.
I finally had to break down and tell him the truth. I never hoped to win him or anyone else in the Lohman camp over,
I just wanted to go into the middle of her safe zone and take a big dump while making sure everyone knows I think she is one CRAZY, PYCHO, LYING BITCH who is trying to re-write history, but I’m not going to let that happen because current and future wild land firefighters lives depend on it.
I also managed to demonstrate to him and lots more of Lohman’s enablers and keyboard knights that I’m not hiding anywhere. I’m really easy to find, they have my address.
But I’m not going to even engage with NEIL or anyone else if they email me back. I proved my point and I feel better now…thank you.
Actually, Taylor is a very sharp young man. I told him I hope he is either going to law school or is planning on it.
I learned something very, very, very interesting from him though. He…(and I can assume many other Lohman supporters) isn’t a dummy. He knows she never received threats to snipe family members or any of her other bullshit lies.
He is just supporter her because if who she is. The grieving widow of a dead WLF.
So…I guess on some level…I have to admire that attitude…maybe? Nawwwwww, that’s BULLSHIT,
He’s a pretty sharp kid though!
Oh…and one more thing. Taylor said he knows a lot of WLF who know me, but they all say I’m a bad guy.
But…I think we need to look at the positive here….they know who I am.
So…I have been gone for a long time, but apparently I haven’t been forgotten!
What more could any beaten down, washed up old guy with COPD ask for? Some young guys remember me!
I told you I am a legend in my own mind!
This whooe experience was definitely un Oddball like. So…I obviously have a lot of work to do to achieve my aspirational goal of becoming Oddball like.
Here is Taylor’s actual quote,
“Well, you’re just making yourself look like a bitch. A lot of firefighters know you… but not for the reasons you might think. The consensus is that you’re just batshit crazy.”
Pretty good…right?
Oh…and one more thing. I did tell Taylr that if you want to hurt an old guy’s feelings, next time tell him, “I know a bunch of firefighters, but nobody has ever heard of you. It’s like you never even existed and you certainly don’t matter now.”
Now that…is how you hurt an old guy’s feelings.
Gary said:
off Mr. Amanda Lohman, because he is former law enforcement
——-
My reply: not too long ago he was on the roster for thr Yarnell fire dept but Jason changed a tire for a Yarnell resident’s parents who lost their home and he was a Jerome FF…
Then I met a FF from Yuma that knows Erik…Jasons brother…God truly is leading this path
Check your email Gar
yep you skimmed because the part on holly was not to you it read:
Mr. Willis and Mr. Steinbrink-
Have you been pure to John MacLean and Holly Neill and Alan Sinclair for their made for profit book?
Yeah…somebody emailed me and told me I was asleep at the switch and you were on to some really important info there. You go girl!
I can vouch for people definitely thinking that they might want to meet “The Other Gary” but it would not be the smartest thing they’ve ever done in their lives.
“They” are not going to do Jack shit.
Gary, I can translate an important part of Joys post: the crew possibly was not exactly transitioned from type2 to type1 “by the book.” Sort of like:
“I have the actual firefighters accounts and Andrews was the only person ever even came to make some sort of evaluation of the GMHS – there was not any hotshot Supts that stayed 14 days to evaluate the GMHS and that was why Willis only named Andrews but his lie was he sad he could not recall the other 2 names…that was because there was no other 2.
What really happened was Crews that worked with them on the same division wrote up some shit but that was all- Andrews was the final so to speak solo “evaluator” – That is why Willis in his interview could not remember who they were – it never happened. They never even had Supts even come to their station to check it out – they never watched them – never watched them cut practice line or ANYTHING.”
Apparently they didn’t follow the proper required procedures to even become a hotshot crew?
Thank you for working on this angle. I could tell you were working on something because of your cryptic posts. I am looking forward to learning more. Fred and I gave the backstory pertaining to how far Hollenshead was involved (me) and how dirty he was (Fred) from the Dude Fire Shredding Party. I also am looking forward to leaning just how unqualified that Terminally Stupid Fuck Up Marsh was. It was SOP to be unqualified back in my day, or qualified in the eyes of the selecting official only without any oversight. That SHOULD NOT have been the case when Marsh was hired and the national interagency hotshot crew standards were in place.That is what Fred devouted the last half of his career to…I think?
I have always tried my hardest to be a good friend…or a bad enemy.
And all the years that Hollowhead was the the USFS National Fire Operations Safety Officer in NIFC and then the Region 5 Fire Director, think of all the fatality wildfires he MAY very well had influence over.
Cramer Fire Entrapment Fatalities (2003) Idaho 07/22/2003
Nuttall Fire Entrapment (2004) Arizona 07/02/2004
Waterfall Fire Entrapment (2004) Nevada 07/14/2004 Entrapment
Little Venus Fire Entrapment (2006) Wyoming Entrapment 07/18/06
I-90 Tarkio Complex (2005) Montana 08/10/2005 Entrapment
Cascade Complex (2007) Idaho 08/12/2007 Entrapment
Devils Den Fatality (2006) Utah 08/17/2006 Entrapment
Esperanza Fire Fatalities California 2006 Entrapment
Angora Fire Entrapment (2007) California 06/26/2007 Entrapment
Ahorn (2007) Montana 07/30/2007 Entrapment
Panther Fire Entrapment Fatality California 07/26/2008 Entrapment
Iron Complex California 2008 Helicopter crash fatalities
Dutch Creek Fire Fatality California July 2008 Tree fatality
Yeah…both Joy and the Woodsman are right. I couldn’t see the forest for the trees. I was just too pissed of this morning to think straight. I didn’t like all of the things those enablers said about me. Definitely showed a weakness on my part and very un Oddball like.
On a side note…HOLLOWHEAD! I hadn’t heard that one in years! 😂 Lots of years! How about “Special Ed”? That was his other big one.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on June 21, 2019 at 9:19 am
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> Also this ridiculous moment where Neill and others put
>> Dugger Hughes letter ( Horseshoe2 Fire ) out there saying
>> LOOK Hughes complimented the GMHS – that was general letter
>> that goes out – those are standard boilerplate that all
>> the teams and all the regions and resources no matter
>> how good or bad their performances – just a feel good thing…
Yes… that “Certificate of Appreciation” that went out from Southwest Incident Management Team Incident Commander Dugger Hughes ( who was also the Superintendent of the Ironwood Hotshots, just down the road from Granite Mountain ) was pretty standard stuff.
The Southwest Incident Managment Team ( SWIMT ) pretty much hands out those ‘Certificates of Appreciation’ like candy.
Here is SWIMT Incident Commander Bea Day giving one to ‘Pam Newman’…
http://fsbizsite.com/prnewman/wp-content/uploads/2018/01/Apprectiation-Award-e1515705810631-300×218.jpg
And here is SWIMT Incident Commander Alan Sinclair giving one to ‘Jamie’.
‘Jamie’ is a CHIMPANZEE.
https://chimpsnw.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/web_Certificate_jamie_wildland_firefighter_IMG_0606-copy.jpeg
MANY more… but only a 2 link limit per post. Just ‘Google’ it.
My comment is awaiting moderation because I inadvertently broke the “two link” rule. So…I have to delete some of the ones I sent out to make sure everyone who wants to find me…can. But…you already know the correct ones anyway, so, I will delete all of my contacts t info I sent to him.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is deleted My telephone number is deleted my website address is deleted and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of deleted Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency
Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
Well…this is a real mess now because the bike of my comment now isn’t going through. I will try again later because right now, this is a real mess.
Well…this is a real mess now because the BULK of my comment now isn’t going through. I will try again later because right now, this is a real mess and I’m very frustrated. 😎
Whew–some must be taking it personal–is Amanda squirming? With Joy about to reveal more and RTS hot on the trail no one should worry–One think I know about Joy is she will not lie–and she will not put out garbage but good facts so we can know more of the truth and what are under the redactions and why the whole incident at Yarnell was such a bobble. Killing young heroes is no small matter–definitely no reason to make such a huge cover up unless someone is guilty that needs to be exposed.
Well..I’m going to try …again.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that Amanda Lohman has been making a lot of false allegations against some of us here on IM, but Joy and Fred seem to be her primary targets. I think I should have that distinction…so obviously this is very distressing to me.
Anyway…these (more than 100 comments) deserve your attention. I am very concerned about the safety of both Joy and Fred because one really beefy guy makes his threat while posing with his pit bull. And pit bulls scare me and I am normally fearless.
The only thing that scares me…is the thought of spending the rest of my pointless life without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far…that situation is looking…hopeful…maybe?
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/photos/a.748269025266283/2169813189778519/?type=3&theater
Check em out!
I selected this one (Thompson) to respond to because it was kinda a stand out for me, so I sent him a message, which did finally make it through above, except he got all of my contact information,
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the Brother,y love.
See below where the guy offers to “take care of things” if she will publish NAMES… and Lohman/Marsh
just thanks him for his “Brotherly Love”.
And I’d course HAL 9000 did some insightful analysis, so I hope he jumps in here with some additional information. But…I want to do what I can to stop this nonsense, my next communication will be with some LE authorities in AZ.
Get some self righteous nut jobs spun up enough, and somebody could get hurt….like our beloved Joy and Fred.
Well…I just sent the same message to about 3 dozen of those who made comments. I tried to avoid sending it to friends because what would be the point that? So instead, I tried to focus on those who were truly asking, “why would someone do that?”
And that answer is easy, no one did, Lohman is a liar. I also tried to send it to everyone who was threatening or especially insulting.
Although I did send one to NEIL. 👿 Because you know…I couldn’t help myself. I also sent one to the big tattooed dude with the pit bull because, well…that just how I roll.
I’ll let you know how all of that turns out. But I’m pretty sure one thing will happen. Those people will quit picking on my dear friends Joy and Fred and focus on me instead, which is how it should be. I am still getting Special Agent hazard pay as part of my retirement from YOU PEOPLE! So…thanks for that. 🙏🏻 😎
Oh…and one more thing. I’m sure you have noticed that I use my resume like a SLEDGEHAMMER to get people’s attention. I think it is quite effective and very hard to argue against for the average critic and detractor.
They are left with,”Oh yeah…oh yeah…oh yeah…I will have to get back with you on the rest of that! 😎
My comment is awaiting mipiderstion because I inadvertently broke the “two link” rule. So…I have to delete some of the ones I sent out to make sure everyone who wants to find me…can. But…you already know the correct ones anyway, sips I will fix that.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is [email protected]. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is http://www.ourfiregods.com, and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of 13-2308.02. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is deleted. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is deleted and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of deleted. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
I was made aware today by HAL 9000 that some of us from IM are being targeted by Amanda Lohman with some outrageous lies that are having a direct cause and effect which is resulting in some truly scary terroristic threats being made against primarily us…but primarily Joy and Fred.
Me too, but as we all know…I am bad to the bone and nothing scares me…except perhaps spending the rest of my pathetic life alone without my Special Lady Friend by my side, but so far, that’s looking…okay, maybe?
Anyway, you can find those threats here;
https://www.facebook.com/ericmarshfoundationforwildlandfirefighters/
I picked Mr Thompson’s out because it was a stand out to me, but there was another one from this really big beefy guy all tattooed up and posing with his pit bull…who was also kinda scary. Anyway, I thought I would see if I might be able to enter into a constructive diologue with him to see if I can do anything to turn this scary trend around cause I love both Joy and Fred so much, I don’t want to see them get hurt. Below you can read the message I sent to Mr, Thompson.
Taylor Thompson:
Post the screen shots and make them famous.
Then we would see how well they fared in the real world and not behind a computer screen.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
( Heart-shaped emoticon )
Taylor Thompson:
I know a few fire fighters that would like that information.
But…there are quite a few more that are almost as disturbing.
Eric Marsh Foundation:
Taylor Thompson love my fire family. A lot. Thanks for the brotherly love.
Hi Taylor,
My name is Gary Olson and I am one of the people being accused of some things that aren’t true by Amanda Lohman. I have read all of the responses to her post and I picked yours out of the group because quite frankly, yours stood out the most.
I would very much like to engage in a constructive conversation with you regarding the misinformation that us being spread by Mrs. Lohman. You obviously can benefit from learning the truth and I thought, “Gee…if I can talk to this guy, maybe there is a chance of an exchange of ideas can resolve the issues that separate us.” And at the very least…perhaps we can disagree without being disagreeable to each other.
I have never hidden my identity or my contact information and in fact, I have encouraged people to contact by using my real email address, which is [email protected]. My telephone number is 541-590-5038, my website address is http://www.ourfiregods.com, and my physical address where I live is at 6285 Rogue River Hwy. Unit #5, Grants Pass, Oregon.
But…please don’t do or say anything that can be construed as making a terroristic threat against two very dear friends of mine, Joy Collara or Fred Schoeffler in violation of 13-2308.02. Making a terrorist threat; false reporting of terrorism; liability for expenses; classification; definitions, A. It is unlawful for a person to threaten to commit an act of terrorism and communicate the threat to any other person.
As a retired GS-1811, Supervisory Criminal Investigator, Sr. Special Agent, I am quite comfortable and very experienced with people threatening me because I understand that they usually don’t really mean it, just as I don’t believe you do. But…I can handle it better, so please make them to me and let them do their important work on uncovering the rest of the truth regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
I promise I won’t hide from you or any of the firefighters you know. I look forward to hearing from you at your earliest convenience and I really hope we can exchange our opposing views on what happened on the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster and the acts that caused the catastrophic destruction of our beloved hotshot crew. My interest in this horrific event of historical magnitude can be best explained by my brief resume as follows, since I never quit being a hotshot in my heart.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0).
Thank you for your attention in this matter and I very much look forward to hearing from you…or any of your friends who may want to talk to me about an event so horrible, it literally turned my world upside down and made me question everything I thought I knew by leaving me dumbfounded with my heart shattered into dozens of pieces, a heartbreak from which…I shall never recover.
Gary
New reading material …
“Why was it that the SAIT and ADOSH investigators were able to interview BLM employees but unable to interview U.S. Forest Service employees to obtain critical Yarnell Hill Fire Human Factors information?”
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2019/06/13/Why-was-it-that-the-SAIT-and-ADOSH-investigators-were-able-to-interview-BLM-employees-but-unable-to-interview-US-Forest-Service-employees-to-obtain-critical-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Human-Factors-information )
I hope to God lots & lots of people from all around the wildfire world read this blog because I have something to say…please listen carefully.
Mr. Brad Mayhew? You are a bonafide 100% USDA choice piece of shit. Praise Jesus that I’m not in any way shape or form like you. Hallelujah!
That is all.
Woodsman
Wait, I have more therapeutic venting to do:
You are worse than incompetent. You’re a shill. That’s the worst thing you can be. A hack. Your “work” is a joke. Think about that each time you cash your fraudulent paycheck. Enjoy your retirement, you clueless fuck.
It’s all coming down, bro. And you are the face of the fiction. You should have shown respect to your elders. I’m going to enjoy your world crashing down.
I would never ever find that therapeutic to think such way of Brad Mayhew
He comes from good blood…good history…good family…many of good men tried to mentor him over time…it is not an easy industry Woodsman…
I mean not to be rude Shawna but the last video I saw – that is not the Legarza I remembered…felt the stresses…
let’s not knock ’em but encourage them to do the right thing because as I do it this Summer- it is just gonna wash all the mean ways I saw from folks especially the social media world…
Man, Woodsman…knowing you like I do- I know it is a vent and the industry is coming back…
2 0 1 9 (20 men 19 dead)
This is it… Life doesn’t always give us what we expect or even hope for. Unfortunately, it is common for us to know what it’s like to be emotionally hurt..
we are all in pain here…Psalm 147:2
Let us help Brad not tear him down as the rest is shown…same with all the people I begin to show because it is the right thing to do—who cares if he felt as he did in San Diego and said what he did to me…it’s the past…let’s go fishing…maybe Gary bought Bob Power’s fishing pole…a better way to spend the day but we all get your hurt- we do.
I show truth in love not for or in pain…
If anyone is not ready or are emotional do not go to my blog this Summer 2019- that is my disclaimer…
Yeah, you’re right. Sorry Brad. You must understand that it’s really frustrating to have the official reports completely absent actual lessons to learn and purposefully omitting key evidence. Back to my timeout area now…
No timeout
These people were a part in a bigger package
Why not vent about Christiansen or Dudley because in my records they seem to have the handle
For me Brad BELIEVES with passion in that product woodsman
He does want to put out a good product…but did you note a lot in San Diego had their presentation to the world…not Brad….and I do wonder if it because I was there…I do ponder because he was charismatic and I gave him a nice review…too bad the world only sees the part of Butler’s video…
Pretty is as pretty does–I have to agree with Woodsman–when someone purposely hides truth and then hides behind religion it becomes irksome. But that is the cronie system I have been watching–and Brad is only a symptom. I can tell you if Yarnell was an example of the wild land fire fighting effort and system then public and old timers in the industry need to take a long hard look at what is going on.
Joy tells me she is coming out with some very pertinent information–maybe stunning–I know she has plenty to tell.
What is disturbing to me is the idea that pages and pages of material can be redacted to interested parties concerning a fire incident. Then even the official investigators have information withheld from them. People are told to keep their mouths shut–their jobs are at stake. Judges back some of this muting of people. Meantime I see Joy, RTS and others attempting to get pertinent information in a completely hostile environment.
Good God the Yarnell fire could have been taken care of by a couple cowboys on Quads or Horses had they went to it. Everyone is afraid to be arrested if they smoke in a restricted area but they are also afraid to be arrested even putting out a lightening strike while all these intelligent wonders of wild land fire fighting sit around banquet halls watching videos, drinking good wine and listening to well paid bull shitters take in big checks for their hot wind.
The system after the fire at Yarnell was allowed to run its course wound up killing its own men and did nothing of any significance of controlling that wild fire until it burned itself out. I am seeing this is mostly how these things end up. There are a few old wild land fire fighters that have it together–but if killing your men and burning down a third of the town is any reason to cheer what was done at Yarnell, please explain to me what it was?
On top of all the mess there, millions of dollars were spent and thousands of tons of retardant were released about the town. Now I see people have died in an unconscionable action that has left a third of the town dead and I dare say at least another third in dire straits with illness related to the useless retardant dumps.
Well the public is still convinced but I am not. And certainly many of the old time retired and some of the not so retired wild land fire fighting men are not so happy with the outcome they saw at Yarnell. If anything it was a blight on wild land fire fighting methods and actions.
It will be good to see people that have been witholding information so valuable to the lives of future wild land fire fighters, loved ones and the public come clean and inform us with the facts they know. There is nothing more detestable than people without the guts to come clean when so many lives are at staked and so many affected by the truth. The people that have caused these redactions, mum orders and cover actions are even more detestable.
And some of these claim to be good citizens, Christians, fellows, etc. and now I wonder how many have followed the Marsh method of lying on their resumes. Damn you, the public is paying your way and you dare hold back what you know to be the truth. You deserve the Karma you will receive.
Reply to Woodsman post on June 18, 2019 at 6:57 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Joy,
>>
>> I’d like to be in the loop on the latest data dump.
>>
>> It’s important. Thanks!
>>
>> I’ve sent chat messages to your blog.
>> I’ve called you and left a voicemail.
>> I’m trying to follow your rules so that I may have access to your
>> information but to no avail. I’d like to know just what hoops I
>> need to jump through in order to get your invite to the information
>> you have offered. Not sure what else I need to do…?
I’m not sure what email service you are using, but the following might be relevant.
I use GMAIL, and it turns out I had to do something specific in order to ‘find’ the email ‘invite’ that comes from that FLICKR account.
GMAIL considers FLICKR to be a ‘Social Media’ service, so when that ‘invite’ to view the FLICKR folder contents arrives, GMAIL sticks it in a special ‘Spam’ folder that they choose to call “Social”. So just looking in your regular email folder OR your regular SPAM folder won’t let you ‘find’ the email invitation. I had to go look in this special GMAIL folder called ‘Social’… and there it was.
In the current version of the GMAIL desktop browser client… the ‘Social’ folder is a TAB at the top of the screen just to the right of the ‘Primary’ folder TAB, which is where all the regular email normally shows up. Just click that ‘Social’ TAB too see all the emails that GMAIL considered to be from ‘Social Media’ services.
If you find the FLICKR email ‘invitation’ and just click on the link in that email, you should then ‘jump’ directly to the FLICKR site and be able to see ALL of the HUNDREDS of ‘pages’ in that particular GMHS.PUBLIC.RECORDS folder.
As someone who is VERY familiar with the existing PUBLIC evidence record(s)… I can verify that there seems to be much more information from the City of Prescott present in this evidence folder than what was originally obtained ( and published ) by the Arizona Division of Occupational Health and Safety ( ADOSH ) when they were doing their investigation.
A lot of what ADOSH did originally published is ‘duplicated’ in these records… but there is also much more that ( apparently ) the City of Prescott did NOT supply to ADOSH when they ( originally ) requested the same records.
The HUNDREDS of ‘photos’ in the FLICKR folder are all simply ‘scans’ of the printed pages received from the City of Prescott via valid/legal Arizona Open Records request(s).
The additional documentation and research regarding the information received from the City of Prescott appears in the NOTES section(s) that accompany the page scans.
That ‘additional documentation and research’ appears to clearly show a number of things, such as…
1. Eric Marsh made false statements on BOTH of his Employment Applications that he submitted to the City of Prescott.
The first application was the one Marsh submitted on March 24, 2003, for the position of ‘Fuels Management Work’ with the original ‘Crew 7’ Fuels Abatement Crew… which was Marsh’s entry point into employment with the City of Prescott.
The second application was the one Marsh submitted a year later, on August 4, 2004, for the upgrade to the position of ‘Wildland Firefighter’ for the City of Prescott. Eric Marsh then never had to actually ‘apply’ for the job of Type 1 IHC Superintendent. Marsh was simply ‘grandfathered’ into that position later on when “Crew 7” became certified as a full Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew.
There is evidence that the City of Prescott did, in fact, contract a 3rd party to do a standard ‘Criminal Background’ check… but there is no evidence that the City of Prescott ever attempted to verify all the ‘Previous Employment’ entries.
They should have. As the ‘additional documentation and research’ notes in the folder show… a lot of that information Marsh presented appears to have been FALSE.
Some ‘companies’ that Marsh listed either never even existed, or, when contacted, have no records of anyone named Eric Marsh ever having been employed there in the timeframe(s) that Marsh was claiming in his employment application(s).
2. The extensive OSHA 300 workplace accident logs contained in the folder are far more detailed than ( apparently ) anything ADOSH ever received or had access to, even though they originally requested ALL that information from the City of Prescott.
Based on stories that have emerged recently ( both publicly, like Pat McCarty’s near-fatal accident, and privately from other former GM Hotshots )… it would appear that these workplace-injury incidents involving these City of Prescott employees were either being inaccurately reported in the legally-required OSHA 300 logs… or were not being reported at all.
3. Other ‘weird’ stuff involving training records and certifications and whatnot.
SIDENOTE: If you do gain access to the FLICKR folder… keep in mind that the ‘invitation’ puts a ‘cookie’ into your browser which is what allows you to see the entire contents. What that means is that if you clear the cache on your browser… you will have to go back to the original FLICKR email ‘invitation’ again and re-click the link in it in order to restore your access to the entire folder.
WTKTT,
So, I send an email to Joys blog and ask for an “invitation” and I get a reply automatically or do I wait for a manual reply authorization?
Thanks for the help!
I have no idea what Joy has to do up on that FLICKR account to ‘generate’ your email invitation. All I know is that Joy told me she sent me an ‘invite’ to see the folder contents… but then it was ‘on me’ to figure out where the hell that email ‘invite’ actually ‘showed up’ in my GMAIL folder.
I had no idea that GMAIL considered FLICKR to be a ‘Social Media’ site… and that it had put that email from FLICKR into that special ‘Social’ folder.
Once I found that email sitting there… I just clicked the link… and I could see the entire GMHS.PUBLIC.RECORDS.
Copy. Thanks!
Upon re-reading the above… I’m not sure I actually answered your question.
The email ‘invite’ I received to view the entire contents of the FLICKR folder named GMHS.PUBLIC.RECORDS came FROM FLICKR itself.
That’s why it went into that ‘Social’ folder instead of regular email folder.
The LINK in the email FROM FLICKR that it wanted me to ‘click’ on said…
GMHS.PUBLIC.RECORDS – ERIC SHANE MARSH PROFILE.
There was also some crap in the email ( and other links ) about FLICKR wanting me to “create and account” with them… but I did NOT have to do that.
I do NOT use FLICKR… and I do NOT have a FLICKR account… but clicking that link in the email ‘invite’ still allowed me to view the entire contents of that GMHS.PUBLIC.RECORDS folder.
No sir/ma’am, you did great and it’s much appreciated!
Reading it now……….Uh Oh……….
Uh
Oh
Reply to Woodsman post on June 19, 2019 at 2:05 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Reading it now……….Uh Oh……….
Yeah. “Uh Oh” is right.
At the BOTTOM of BOTH of the only 2 Employment Applications that Eric Marsh ever had to submit to the City of Prescott, and just above Marsh’s signature on both documents, is the following text…
———————————————————————–
“I certify that ALL information on this application form is complete and accurate. I understand that any omissions or misstatements of fact are cause for rejecting my application, or, if I am hired, termination of employment.”
————————————————————————
It is not a CRIME, per se, to “make shit up” on a job application.
But the USUAL ‘penalty’, if you do, is that you simply don’t get the job.
If you “roll the dice” and hope nobody lifts a finger to actually VERIFY everything you have claimed… then… well… I guess you get away with it.
wtktt said – There is evidence that the City of Prescott did, in fact, contract a 3rd party to do a standard ‘Criminal Background’ check… but there is no evidence that the City of Prescott ever attempted to verify all the ‘Previous Employment’ entries.
My reply:
I spoke to the lady direct- they have not used their services in a very long time and when they did it was not for all employees –
then City of Prescott stated – ok…be right back to get their exact quotes when I brought that topic up-
06/07/2019 (12 days ago)
Hello,
Thank you for your request. Unfortunately the type of record you requested is not kept by the City of Prescott. We do not perform employment verifications for seasonal/temporary employees. Thank you.
and I asked back that I asked for all – so what about full time employees- they replied:
Friday, June 7, 2019 12:13 PM
Ms. Collura,
Your request stated, “City of Prescott HR ( Human Resources ) people for years 2002 to 2013 that would VERIFY ’employment history’ for the Fire Departments including Granite Mountain Hotshots.”
This request is asking for a public record document that spans over 11 years of employees in HR that have had duties that have undoubtedly varied from year to year. Your request is asking for a public record document that would show who was designated in HR to VERIFY employment history. The City just does not have a public record document that reflects this information.
This is request is respectfully closed. Please make a new request if you are going to request a different public record document or if you would like to modify your request.
Thank you.
Wtktt-
when is the legal time for the City of Prescott to fulfill some records (one is about to be a year old) that they state are not sealed – they state:
(and remember my files are still unpublished -)
06/10/2019
Hi there
Your record request has been submitted. It is currently under review and is not available for the general public to view.
I never received their FINANCIAL fully- it was redacted and they are in midst of fixing that and I also still awaiting the documents/public records of WHO SIGNED and certified that they were a TYPE 1 Interagency. Do you know Wtktt?
In closing Yarnell Hill Fire Author and his rattlesnake moment:
https://losalamosreporter.com/2019/06/17/hear-about-kyle-dickmans-rattlesnake-encounter-tuesday-at-the-nature-center/
Reply to Joy A Collura post on June 19, 2019 at 3:17 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> wtktt said – There is evidence that the City of Prescott
>> did, in fact, contract a 3rd party to do a standard ‘Criminal
>> Background’ check… but there is no evidence that the City
>> of Prescott ever attempted to verify all the ‘Previous Employment’
>> entries.
>>
>> My reply:
>> I spoke to the lady direct- they have not used their services in
>> a very long time and when they did it was not for all employees –
>>
>> then City of Prescott stated – ok…be right back to get their exact
>> quotes when I brought that topic up-
>>
>> 06/07/2019 (12 days ago)
>> Hello,
>> Thank you for your request. Unfortunately the type of record you
>> requested is not kept by the City of Prescott. We do not perform
>> employment verifications for seasonal/temporary employees.
First off… let me say I was WRONG up above about there only being TWO job applications submitted by Eric Marsh to the City of Prescott.
In looking at the folder again… it turns out there were actually THREE.
City of Prescott Application for Employment
Applicant Name: Eric Shane Marsh
Position Applied For: Fuels Management
Date: March 24, 2003
City of Prescott Application for Employment
Applicant Name: Eric Shane Marsh
Position Applied For: Wildland Firefighter
Date: August 4, 2004
City of Prescott Application for Employment
Applicant Name: Eric Shane Marsh
Position Applied For: Fuels Management Field Supervisor
Date: February 28, 2005
The one I missed above was the third one, which represents Marsh’s move from just being on the Fuels Abatement Crew ( full-time ) to being the ‘Supervisor’, which happened in 2005.
Only his FIRST application, on March 24, 2003, could be considered to have been for ‘temporary’ or ‘seasonal’ work.
However… on ALL THREE of the ‘Employment Applications’ that Eric Marsh filled out for the City of Prescott… the City has four ‘checkboxes’ on the employment form indicating the ‘type’ of employment being applied for…
—————————————————————————————
[X] Full-time [_] Part-time [_] Temporary [_] Seasonal.
—————————————————————————————
And on all THREE of Eric Marsh’s applications… the “[X] Full-time” box is the only one ‘checked’.
The actual original City of Prescott job advertisement ‘flyer’ for the position of “Fuels Management Field Supervisor” ( which is also contained in the records you received from Prescott, along with Marsh’s job application ) absolutely says this was a “Full Time Position” with the City of Prescott.
So even if the first ‘application’ turned out to be ‘temporary’ or ‘seasonal’ work… the other TWO were most definitely NOT.
Those were BOTH applications for full-time employment for the City of Prescott and would ( should? ) have been subject to full ( standard ) verification(s).
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> Wtktt-
>> when is the legal time for the City of Prescott to fulfill some
>> records (one is about to be a year old) that they state are
>> not sealed.
It depends. There are, in fact, ways they can “drag their feet”.
The Arizona State Legislature
Arizona Public Records Laws
Arizona Ombudsman – Citizen’s Aide Service
Frequently Asked Questions about Arizona’s Open Records Law(s)
https://www.azoca.gov/resources/faqs/faqs-public-access-laws/
—————————————————————————————
How long does the ( Arizona ) public body have to provide the records requested?
The law REQUIRES prompt disclosure. A.R.S. § 39-121.01(D)(1).
What constitutes prompt depends on what is reasonable under the circumstances.
Criteria that will be taken into account includes: the agency’s resources, the nature of the request, the content of the records (particularly whether information must be redacted), and the location of the records (for instance, whether the records are stored off site). That said, mere inconvenience does not justify delay. The Arizona Court of Appeals recently applied the Webster’s Dictionary definition, which defines prompt as “quick to act or to do what is required” or “done, spoken, etc., at once or without delay.”
Also, keep in mind that some public bodies are required by statute to provide records within a specifically stated period of time.
—————————————————————————————
Bottom line is… if they are obviously “dragging their feet”… you just have to hold their “feet in the fire” because the law is actually on your side. They MUST comply.
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> I never received their FINANCIAL fully- it was redacted and
>> they are in midst of fixing that and I also still awaiting the
>> documents/public records of WHO SIGNED and certified that
>> they were a TYPE 1 Interagency. Do you know Wtktt?
Exactly WHO the ( supposedly ) THREE Type 1 Interagency Hotshot Superintendents were that ‘evaluated’ Granite Mountain for their Type 1 certification has always been a closely guarded SECRET.
Not even ADOSH was allowed to know that during THEIR official workplace fatality investigation.
Even though ADOSH requested ALL that kind of information from the City of Prescott, on day 1 of their investigation, No ‘task books’ or ‘certification’ documents pertaining to Granite Mountain actually achieving their Type 1 status were ever provided by the City of Prescott to ADOSH.
All ADOSH could do was ASK City of Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis about that during his first ADOSH interview… but even then… Willis ‘pretended’ that he didn’t ‘remember’ all of their names.
Willis tried to tell ADOSH that he could only remember ONE of the THREE Federal level Type 1 IHC’s that ‘evaluated’ “Crew 7” on their quest to become a Type 1 crew… and that ONE person he could remember was Jeff Andrew.
From Willis’ FIRST ( of TWO ) ADOSH interviews, on August 19, 2013…
Q1 = Barry Hicks, ADOSH Investigator.
A = Darrell Willis, City of Prescott Wildland Division Chief and SPG2 at Yarnell
————————————————————————————
1703 A: ( We decided ) to take it to the Type 1 status. We had the full1
1704 time employees, we – we met everything and so we did a – a year of, uh,
1705 training as a training crew in 2007. Had three s- different superintendents go
1706 along with us on, uh…
1707
1708 Q1: Who – who were those?
1709
1710 A: Jeff Andrew was one. Uh, he’s with Prescott.
1711
1712 Q1: Uh-huh.
1713
1714 A: Um, I’m trying to think who the other guy was. There was two others, and I
1715 can’t remember the other two. But they…
1716
1717 Q1: So they essentially went on assignments with them and – and signed off…
1718
1719 A: Just watched them.
1720
1721 Q1: Signed off on their task books as accomplishing all the things their…
1722
1723 A: The Interagency Hotshot Crew has a standard – uh, guidelines. And they have
1724 to be evaluated in these certain areas, and they did those evaluations.
1725
1726 Q1: Oh, okay.
1727
1728 A: So it was a total outside entity. And we wanted to have Forest Service…
1729
1730 Q1: Yep.
1731
1732 A: Because, you know, they’re the big guys in this…
1733
1734 Q1: Right.
1735
1736 A: …game.
1737
1738 Q1: Yeah.
1739
1740 A: We wanted to have them and we wanted unbiased.
————————————————————————————-
And that was it. That was all Darrell Willis was willing to tell the ADOSH investigators about how “Crew 7” actually got certified to be Type 1 “Granite Mountain”.
It really has never been credible that for something so important to Darrell Willis, that he simply doesn’t ‘remember’ the names of the other TWO ( supposedly ) Type 1 IHC Superintendents that ‘evaluated’ his “Crew 7”.
And again… just recently… Darrell Willis was a ‘guest’ during one of The Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood PODCASTS… and Pfingston asked him to “tell the story” of how “Crew 7” became Type 1 “Granite Mountain”… and she also asked Willis to specifically ‘talk’ about these THREE ‘evaluators’.
Willis now supplies even more detail about who they were… but still refuses to NAME anyone.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfongston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood.
PODCAST Episode 7: THE Granite Mountain Hotshots
Published: April 15, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-7-THE-Granite-Mountain-Hotshots-e3oaob
Transcript of PODCAST Episode 7, Part 5, starting at +7:53…
—————————————————————————————–
Deborah Pfingston: So in two-thousand and seven… that’s when they became Granite Mountain. How did… you know… what?… you receive approvals or… what?… you know… that goes… how did that work? Did they look at trainings?… you know… what do they look for?
Darrell Willis: So there’s a lotta different aspects. The first was… was a… we wrote a letter… excuse me… I wrote a letter to the Southwest Coordinating Group asking them if the Granite Mountain… uh… Granite Mountain crew could… could become a trainee crew. A trainee hotshot crew…. and there are criteria for a trainee crew to go through. Similar to what there is in taskbooks and stuff. There are specific items from crew cohesion to… uh… the equipment… the radios… their… uh… training aspect… and all of that that goes into this… and they had to be evaluated by THREE different Hotshot Superintendents. This is the part that I’m… I’m most proud of. The Southwest Coordinating group, since there had been no other crew go through this process, chose THREE of the BEST and most… uh… difficult Hotshot Superintendents from the Southwest… and they went on… uh… three fourteen-day assignments, with Granite Mountain, making suggestions… either passing or failing them on the thing… the criteria that they had… and in the end they got a full recommendation by these THREE different FEDERAL Hotshot Crew Superintendents.
( Then… at the start of Episode 7, Part 6… )
Deborah Pfingston: Chief… uhm… could you tell me about the evaluators? The… uh… you know… who watched them?
Darrell Willis: Yeah. Right. So… they were… ah… THREE very experienced, very well respected Hotshot Superintendents…those THREE were VERY well respected Superintendents with a lot…. years of experience and are still in the business today.
—————————————————————————————-
It remains ‘not credible’ that Willis does NOT know who ALL THREE of these Type 1 Hotshot Superintendents actually were that followed GM out on all THREE of their 14-day evaluation assignments… especially since this is the part that Willis says he is (quote) “Most proud of”.
He didn’t want ADOSH to know their names… and he STILL doesn’t want to SAY who they were.
The SWCC must have documentation on this, since they were the ones that had the final approval that made Granite Mountain a Type 1 crew… but ADOSH never got around to requesting that documentation from the SWCC itself.
It remains a mystery who they ACTUALLY were… or whether Jeff Andrew was really one of them.
so am I to ask how come it did not come in my complete request or just make another new request stating it was not in there and were they looking for me to be specific to the exact document because I thought I did that. I am confused. I always felt the City of Prescott was always forthcoming with data if they had it so maybe they do not have it? Who would then? Would I do that in a FOIA in ABQ…tonight I am going to make a post why was it that the Investigators were allowed to interview BLM employees but not US Forest Employees to determine the critical Human Factors that I was hoping to see from Brad Mayhew in the SAIR.
It is “not credible” that the City of Prescott does NOT have SOME ( or ALL ) of the ‘documentation’ surrounding the certification of their own Fuels Abatement Crew as an actual Nationally-Available Type 1 Interagency Hotshot Crew.
That wouldn’t even make any sense from a ‘liability’ and/or ‘insurance’ standpoint. Heck… even the City of Prescott BILLING department would need some kind of ‘proof of certification’ since they would be the ones BILLING the Prescott Fire Department Wildland Crew out as a full-rate Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew, following ‘certification’.
But if the City of Prescott is going to keep pretending they do NOT have that kind of ‘certification documentation’… then it would take a court order and a search warrant to go in there and LOOK for those documents.
Fallback would be the SWCC ( Southwest Coordinating Center ).
Willis tells Pfingston ( above, in the recent PODCAST ) that HE is the one who sent a ‘letter’ to the SWCC ‘requesting’ that Granite Mountain become a ‘trainee crew’… and it was the SWCC who then make all the arrangements for that to happen.
It was also the SWCC who made the final ‘decision’ to allow City of Prescott “Crew 7” to become Type 1 IHC Granite Mountain… so it would have been the SWCC itself that was receiving the actual REPORTS from the THREE Federal-level Type 1 IHC Superintendents that ( supposedly ) evaluated “Crew 7”.
SOMEONE has that paperwork.
I still don’t really undeerstand why ADOSH was unable to track that ‘paperwork’ down as part of THEIR investigation.
Likely those fellows that OK’d the GMHS crew do not want their names attached now that they see their error and it looks like another cronie cover your back story with Willis doing quite a lot of that just as he testified for Amanda against Joy when Amanda attempted to quash Joy’s inquiry into the matters of the GMHS crew deaths.
Well, sad that someone can say anything against either Joy or Gary, WTKTT, Woodsman, and just about every citizen and wild land fire fighter that posts on IM. –then they are all batshit crazy and so am I and I suppose you might describe it that way if you are supporting the lies that many are supporting concerning the Yarnell incident.
No, in fact the bat shit crazies are those thinking they can contiinue living the lie–it is slowly choking them out.
I read that part about Sniping someone out. How ridiculous can you get yet the are a few kooks that would be stupid enough to believe such crap. But it is quite apparent that Amanda is using such phrases to play on the sympathy of others and manipulate their feelings. And sad again that there are a few kooks stupid enough to believe her and even make grave threats to Joy.
I personally have had no threats–and I have no reason to threaten anyone either. I can understand the sadness that could come over a spouse from the loss of a loved one. I have lost a son and I believe the grief would be even worse since I have been married at least 6 times–all good women but could not handle the rough life of a miner, logger, cowboy and freelandia ways of living. Still had my son been a murderer I would have faced that fact and still loved him, yet not the murder part. Fortunately he was quite a man–underwater welder, and after injury went on to a University to make something of himself after his right arm had been wrenched from his body.
So, yes we feel for Amanda and others–but I for one will not espouse a lie. Joy and I witnessed that day and I knew damn well you would not drop off into that trap–I almost let Joy do it but bless my better judgement I took the risk to go back down that mountain and the 40 minutes extra to nab her and get her moving with me out of even the two track–which did burn with a ferocity as well–PVC pipe in the center of the road and near where Steed and Company went down actually melted into a snake configuration. I am sure Joy has photos of that.
If you added up all the experience of the wild land fire fighter supers that post here it would easily be more than 500 years of wild land fire fighting experience. To even dare challenge that kind of experience speaks of the ultimate degree of stupidity. The wisdom of experience to that degree can not be disputed. These men know what happened and have been telling it for the world to know–and not for greed or pride or to hurt someone, but to put pressure for change and to save lives. And that can only come about where the truth is revealed to all.
Sorry that a few get their bubble bursted–but lives come before hurt feelings.
And just for reference…
If anyone was thinking that maybe the authors of the 3 top-selling books about Granite Mountain ( Dickman, Santos and Talty ) were able to find out more about exactly how City of Prescott Fuel Abatement “Crew 7” actually got certified as a Type 1 Hotshot crew…
…think again.
Here is what a piss-poor job THOSE ‘authors’ did with THAT…
From the books…
From Kyle Dickman’s book “On the Burning Edge”…
———————————————————————————
A pair of longtime Forest Service hotshot superintendents shadowed Marsh and his firefighters as they were put through a series of tests meant to replicate any scenario hotshots might encounter on the fire line.
———————————————————————————
SIDENOTE: Dickman didn’t even get the number of superintendents right. According to Willis… it was THREE… not just TWO.
From Fernanda Santos’ book “The Fire Line”…
———————————————————————————
Marsh nailed down the Hotshots’ ( Type 1 IHC ) trainee status with the federal fire bureaucracy in 2007. He renamed the crew and gave it a new logo, the silhouette of Granite Mountain against a setting sun. He got the surplus sale vans they rode replaced by the white buggies. The Forest Service called a year later, in 2008. The Granite Mountain Hotshots had qualified.
———————————————————————————-
Brendan McDonough’s book “My Lost Brothers”
( actually written by author Stephan Talty )
———————————————————————————
No mention whatsoever of how “Crew 7” actually became “Granite Mountain”. There isn’t even one reference to Duane Steinbrink, or anything that actually happened before McDonough got hired by the City of Prescott in 2011.
———————————————————————————
And since you are among my closest friends and confidants, I want to share this with you. This man…WOODY, is the man whose job it was to keep me from ever being promoted to an 1811-GS-14.
And I have made myself feel better for decades now quoting Sun Tzu, the Chinese author of The Art of War, because for me, this quote has come true many, many, many times.
“If you wait by the river long enough, the bodies of your enemies will float by.”
And although my career could have gone better for the last half of it, it certainly both went better and ended better than Woody’s career did. I always despised this man, and it it showed in all things I did.
According to our source, on Thursday, June 13, Director Woody’s gun and badge were stripped from him and he was escorted out of the Department of the Interior headquarters in Washington D.C..
By Marjorie Haun
Bureau of Land Management (BLM) Office of Law Enforcement Services (OLES) director William Woody seems to have followed a path similar to that of his corrupt protege, Dan Love. Woody has been under investigation for numerous apparent abuses of power and mishandling of government funds since the time he retook the position in 2017. According to our source, on Thursday, June 13, Director Woody’s gun and badge were stripped from him and he was escorted out of the Department of the Interior headquarters in Washington D.C..
Woody was hired by the BLM in 2003 at which time he apparently mentored Dan Love, and was then moved to Fish & Wildlife Service where he worked for several years and, according to our source, was pushed out of that agency amid allegations of lavish travel spending and arbitrary pay hikes of all agents under his supervision. In 2017 Woody was reassigned back to BLM to head its division of law enforcement.
Woody’s infamous protege, Dan Love, was the agent behind the bungled Bundy Ranch raid in 2014 and the 2009 antiquities sting, Operation Cerberus, which ended in the deaths of three men in southern Utah. With countless accusations and overwhelming evidence of corruption, overreach, racism, and bullying, in 2017 Dan Love was removed from his position as BLM OLES director for Utah and Nevada. According to an informant within the agency, Love was given a medical/mental health retirement with full federal benefits.
Like Dan Love, William Woody has a reputation for overt aggression against private citizens. In addition to his involvement in the deadly Operation Cerberus, while serving in the US fish & Wildlife agency, Woody was reportedly involved in the 2014 raid on the Gibson Guitar factory in Nashville, Tennessee. The raid closely echoed those of Operation Cerberus and the Bundy Ranch with dozens of federal agents in SWAT-type vehicles and dressed in body armor descending on unawares citizens with militaristic force. See more here:
Free Range Report has followed numerous accounts of Woody’s ethical lapses which include hostile work environment/anti-harassment investigations by the EEO, and broader accusations of misuse of government funds and property investigations by the Interior Department Office of Inspector General (OIG). Why Woody was removed at this specific time is unknown, but the grounds for his removal appear to be more than sufficient. As we have previously reported, Woody’s apparent abuses are numerous and broad in scope:
•The OIG investigated allegations that a Bureau of Land Management (BLM) official was not authorized to use a Government-owned vehicle (GOV) for home-to-work commuting, traveled to his home state for personal reasons under the guise of work trips, inappropriately interfered in a hiring action to select a lesser-qualified applicant, and planned to relocate a BLM office to another state to personally benefit from the move.
•Misuse of a government vehicle while working in D.C.
•Fraud in moving a major BLM Office of Law Enforcement headquarters to Salt Lake where Woody’s wife’s family lives. In a backroom compromise with Secretary Zinke upon Director Woody’s removal from the FWS, Director Woody was told he could uproot his entire staff and move it to Salt Lake City, all expenses paid by the taxpayers.
•Overruling a senior LE (Law Enforcement) official on a hiring decision for Reno so he could bring in a female with whom he reportedly had a “relationship.”
•Illegally hiring a female staffer at a top federal pay grade to handle his public relations disasters.
•Hiring Dan Love and promoting him following his actions related to Operation Cerberus which lead to the deaths of 3 men in the Four Corners region.
•Shielding Dan Love and covering up for his insane expenditures, including $14,000 in vehicle modifications (BLM has $2,500 limit) and extravagant and illegal purchases made for Operation Cerberus.
•It is reported that Woody helped Dan Love receive a medical retirement instead of being fired- which leaves the door open for Love to re-enter the agency at anytime.
•Woody is known for extensive and unnecessary travel for meetings, often with with large groups, and visits to sportsman’s shows and other unofficial activities.
•Despite a period of hiring freezes in government agencies, Woody continued to hire cronies at exorbitant salaries. Most people in his position get one GS-15, which is the highest pay grade available to federal employees.
•Woody reportedly buys the loyalty (and silence) of his agency underlings with unwarranted promotions and fat salaries. According to our informant he is in the process of upgrading all his 60-odd investigators from GS-12’s to GS-13’s. With their special salary rate included, that’s a $17,347 raise per person. He also promoted 15 or so supervisory investigators, all earning $128,882 as GS-14’s ($19,817 raise) and two additional GS-15’s, who received a $22,718 raise, which equates to an expenditure of $1,383,511 in additional tax dollars spent each year.
According to our source, the removal of Woody’s law enforcement authority makes him ineligible to serve as a BLM cop, and removes all of his personal police powers as well. Although he is likely to get a federal pension, he probably will not receive the additional benefits given to retired federal law enforcement agents. The nature of his ouster infers that Woody’s actions have been so egregious that BLM can no longer contain the reports or cover his reputation, and that they are serious about removing this apparent bad actor from power.
Our source will continue to provide us with updates on the matter.
Oh…and one more thing. Since I was a 1811-GS-13 STEP 8, my numbers were a lot higher than those quoted since those are based on a Step 1. So I didn’t do to bad. I just would have liked to have taken that last step.
Just in case anybody like Maclean or any of my other detractors are keeping score. I was one successful Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent and I always kept my integrity intact unlike Legarza, Hollenshead and lots of other people I can and have named.
Like I keep saying…I am and was…bad to the bone and have the trophies to prove it. Don’t fuck with the Jesus…or me. 😂
Oh…and just one more thing. It is actually quite rare to arrest someone in federal law enforcement because an arrest triggers the “Speedy Trial Act” and puts everyone, including Assistant United States Attorney’s and even the Case Agents under tremendous pressure with onerous and artificial time constraints.
It is just considered to extremely unprofessional and in fact, any Case Agent who does that risks having that case dropped by the US Attorney and their next cases not accepted for prosecution either.
The only legitimate reason to arrest someone, is if the Case Agent can clearly articulate that the suspect is either a flight risk (such as someone from another country) or they pose a threat to themselves or someone else.
Anyway…at the conclusion of “Operation Cerberus”, which was an undercover operation, (I was still working in Arizona) Woody ordered that all of the suspects be arrested over the objections of partner agencies that included the FBI, not to mention the U.S. Attorney’s Office for the District of Utah. None of the suspects were a flight risk, nor were any of them violent offenders who posed a risk to anyone.
One of them was a very low level sad sack illegal antiques dealer in Santa Fe who was relatively young but had fucked up everything in his life to date by making bad decisions one after the other.
A second man was the local family physician from Blanding, Utah who had delivered just about everybody’s baby’s who lived in that county named Dr. James Redd. Dr Redd like so many other people in the Four Corners Region, had dabbled in the unlawful looting and trafficking of Native American artifacts because in that country, it is a way of life and has been for many, many decades.
It’s unlawful, it needs to stop and those engaged in it need to be punished if found guilty. But…it isn’t usually a violent crime even though that is the favorite past time for meth heads in that region because they are up…like 24/7 with not much else to do and then they trade artifacts for more meth.
Anyway…Woody wanted everyone arrested for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than he wanted to make a splash with the news media and the best way to do that, is to execute high profile and very aggressive search warrants that are followed up by physical arrests. So that is what happened.
Dr, Redd for so mortified at his arrest and humiliation because of his position in the community he committed suicide right after he was released from jail almost immediately after being arraigned in Federal Court, which happens all of the time WITHOUT AN ARREST.
The sad sack loser from Santa Fe flew home to visit his mother in Michigan or some place like that, I think it was a Michigan, (his home own) and then he walked over to his old grade school and shot himself in the head just like Dr. Redd had.
The Source Of Information (SOI) that was known as an “informant” in the old days of course knew both of these men very well because he had provided the information and introductions that led to their arrests. Which is Standard Operating Procedure because an old LE adage is, “No informants…no cases.” And after his former friends killed themselves because they were arrested, he then committed suicide the same way.
There is no doubt in my mind that Woody and the Case Agents who followed his orders rather than stand on principle and lose their careers (because the primary Case Agent did just that) have the blood of those men on their hands to their and the BLM’s everlasting shame.
Woody just as well put a gun to their heads and kiilled them himself. Woody is responsible for their deaths. With great power…comes great responsibility. Woody is an evil and despicable man who I hope burns in hell for his sins.
Oh…and one more thing. This is getting down into the weeds, but almost everyone who is facing criminal charges ends up in cour after their attorneys, even if those attorneys are public defenders that have been appointed for them, or they themselves are sent a fucking letter in the fucking US mail telling them where to be on what date and at what time. Nobody (hardly) ever gets ARRESTED! Suspects are either indicted by a federal Grand Jury after the Case Agent and the Assistant US Attirney on the Case present some evidence of wrong doing to said federal grand jury. The normal standard is that grand jury’s will indict a ham sandwich. If that doesn’t happen for a variety of reasons, the Case Agent swears out a complaint and an Information is filed with the court by the US Attorneys Office. That isnt the prefered way because that way doesn’t involve citizen juries whose job it is, is to indict every case put before them even if it is a ham sandwich. NOBODY GETS ARRESTED EXCEPT FOR LIKE…TONY MONTANA! They just get sent letters. Dr. Redd and the low level dealer from Santa Fe, in addition to all of the other defendants who didn’t commit suicide, just should have been sent letters several months later and then they wouldn’t have overreacted in the heat, stress and embarrassment of of ty e moment by being arrested in the middle of a dynamic search warrants being brought down on their heads. And then the SOI wouldn’t have gotten all remorseful and eatin his gun either. The dumb shit from Michigan would have been living back in his mother’s basement for the last six months when his letter came and then he wouldn’t have walked over to his old grade school playground, sat in his favorite childhood swing and blown his fucking brains out. I really hate it when government employees do the WRONG THING WHEN THEY GET PAID TO DO THE RIGHT THING. It really isn’t very hard to do the RIGHT THING, everyone knows what the WRONG THING is, and so they just shouldn’t do that, they should do the RIGHT THING. I’m tellin you…I have seen a lot of WRONG THINGS done and I’m fuckin sick and tired of it! That is all…please carry on.
Nobody ever goes to prison or gets in any real trouble for ARPA violations anyway. I mean…you can argue if that is right or wrong or not, but they just don’t. Three or four years later, his court appointment attorney would have gotten him off with a small fine he could have spent the rest of his life paying off, at like, $20.00.a month, plus a suspended sentence, some community service and a couple of years of unsupervised probation. And then they never would have had to clean up his brains from the grade school playground and he coukd still be in his mothers basement tonight yelling, “Hey Ma…I’m hungry, make me some of those little pizza things. Hot Pockets!”
Oh…and you know what else Woody and those BLM assholes did, they executed those dynamic search and arrest warrants on a Friday afternoon. That’s the oldest trick in the book because federal magistrates don’t work on the weekends so they can’t be arraigned and either just outright released or bonded out until MONDAY. That means that young man spent the entire weekend in a jail cell with his stress level building every minute until he was ready to overreact and kill himself. The only worse thing, is to do that at the beginning of a federal three day holiday weekend, which they might have done, it’s been a long time ago. And Dr. Redd was hauled all of the way up to Salt Lake City from BLANDING! for his unjustified perp walk of shame. Anyway, Woody is little better than a MURDERER and I hope he burns in hell for his sins against humankind. Fuckin’ asshole.
And everybody got the Tony Montana reference…right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=a_z4IuxAqpE
You are a class act Gary. I had a great and badly needed laugh at your first line about Woody.. If your book is anything like your posts they will be great reading.
I wondered if this Woody character was a part of the Waco ordeal. I never quite understood that debacle since with a little of that Asian waiting by the river the Feds could have have easily nabbed David Koresh. He made regular visits into town and even to the Sheriff’s office. Any good Military Sniper or Swat Sniper could have easily picked him off on his own turf as well. They use drones these days–and their targets are always the head of the snake–cut his head off and the snake dies, albeit with some wiggling.
I imagined it was because the Feds wanted to have some practice and in that practice the bosses did not give a shit about risk and killing kids. They did prove that some of those in Federal police positions count human life other than their own of little value.
So it reminds me of the similarities to the Marsh ordeal where someone above him was asking the stupid question of how his comfort zone would be to drop down in that death canyon. I do know the men that have retired from wild land fire fighting supervisory positions –at least those who do post here–would have screamed at him to keep your crew in the black and in a safe area. I know from what he did, he could not have been the only one supporting a stupid move. But like the Waco run and some you mentioned, the practice and macho runs made against all good common sense and at the unnecessary risk of human life took their toll.
It certainly points to the human factor in these incidences–places were calmer and more experience heads were in charge. It is hard to see how men of Marsh’s qualifications and experience could ever be put in charge of the lives of 19 men. How even after so many bosses of integrity had noted his incompetence and risk taking behaviours that he was allowed to continue on until he killed those 18 is another question. You would think that when a man is dangerous to his crew those markers would immediately be noted and addressed. So perhaps Marsh has led the wild land fire fighting community into some good territory after his demise. Now that more is coming out you would hope that strict attention will be taken regarding hiring practices and especially procedures to advance those that want to be in charge of the lives of others.
Your Woody example was well taken.
No…that was all BATF&E, and that certainly could have been handled better like arresting Koresh when he went to town or was otherwise separated from his fanatical followers and the huge arsenal of illegal guns they had, but yes, the ATF was probably looking for some good press by executing a dynamic search warrant on that compound and then things got real bad, real fast.
I never thought life would give me a clean shot at Woody like this, but if I can fuck him up by telling the world what he did and why he did it, I am going to do so.
He was also always planning meetings that didn’t need to even happen and if they did, they didn’t need to happen with him on attendence, in Santa Fe and ABQ on Friday’s. I was working in New Mexico at that time. That is one of his criminal acts that article missed, thet were right on the money I about all of his other misdeeds, including his bullshit in SLC were his much much, much, much, younger wife was from, but they missed his New Mexico misdeeds.
Can anybody guess why Woody was always scheduling meetings that didn’t even need to happen and if they did, his attendence was definitely not needed in Santa Fe or ABQ on Friday’s? His New Mexico “meetings” were a standing joke just like Woody was among the rank and file agents. Anyone…anyone…anyone?
I really hated that man. And I use the term ‘man’ to describe that BITCH (because he definitely was born with a mangina) very loosely.
But life…has given me a gift because I waited by the river long enough.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 19, 2019 at 12:23 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> But life…has given me a gift because I waited by the river long enough.
And, in your case, it also seems like there is a nice park bench installed right there by the river… with a box of chocolates on it to snack on while you ‘wait’.
Yes, thank you, and I really never knew what I’m was going to get…and I still don’t…OMGosh, GOD REALLY DOES LOVE ME.. First he has given me another chance to get it right with my Special Lady Friend, and now…a clean shot at Woody with a Barrett M107.
.And the answer to my riddle, is that Woody was from ABQ where he had grown up and where his parents, siblings and extended family still lived.
So…fly from D.C. to ABQ on Thursday, fake a meeting on Friday, plan a follow up fake meeting on Monday and then fly back to D.C. on Tuesday.
All at government expense while he was on per diem for 6 days and could even stay in very nice hotels for those 5 nights if he didn’t want to sleep at his family’s homes.
Woody was a corrupt POLITICAL APPOINTEE, who was NOT career Civil Service and all it would have taken was a other one level above him corrupt political appointee him to sign off on his travel voucher and he did that and got away with it about every six weeks for many, many, many years.
The BLM is notorious for being loaded up and very top heavy at the upper levels of management with corrupt political appointees.
Although there is something going on with Woody that is way above and beyond his normal thievery and gross incompetence because he has been screwing the same pooches for many years and getting away with everything.
So…pulling his credentials, taking away his guns branding him, and escorting outside the palisades if the fort. Something BIG is going on…of that we can be assured.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TXlUS5-ag_g
Except Woody will never be able to prove he’s a man because you know…he was born with a mangina.
Now…here goes one of my weirder stories in a career that had a lot of weird stories associated with it. The only time I have ever heard of anything like that happened before, came one morning from a friend of mine who worked in the BLM D.C. OLES.
He told me the USDI OIG and the FBI had just showed up completely unexpectedly and escorted the Deputy Director of the BLM out of the building while not allowing him to take anything with him and then they sealed off his office pending a massive search warrant.
The BLM Deputy Director (not the director of OLES, law enforcement, THE Deputy Director of the entire BLM…Dean Stepanek).
Now…here is the backstory. Deputy Director Stepanek was DATING a beautiful young woman who worked…wait for it…at the Russian Embassy. The last time I heard about Dean Stepanek, he was living with that woman in Siberia and working for USAID.
Oh…and one more thing. Did I mention the BLM controls access to, development of, permitting for, record keeping of, and POTENTIAL FUTURE production of all oil and gas owned by the federal government and the federal government owns and controls almost all oil and natural gas.
For example, the U.S. Forest Service manages the SURFACE of National Forests. The BLM manages the SUBSURFACE of all National Forests and whatever minerals, oil, gas etc. is under the surface. Weird…huh?
Now…I’m not suggesting Shit-For-Brains Woody is a Russian spy because I think he is just a common and petty thief, but…something is up besides his normal con games.
Oh…and one more thing. The reason my buddy called me excited with the big news is because everybody in the know…knew Deputy Director Dean Stepanek really had the ass for me and he was not only blocking any promotion for me, he might have been trying to you know…FIRE ME and terminate my employment with the BLM.
So my buddy was hopeful things might get finally better for me. Which things really did get better because they were never able to terminate my employment, but I also never got that last promotion.
Like I already wrote,…everything but the last step during the first half of my career, and I never could make the last step during the entire second half of my career.
Of course I spent several years worrying about being TERMINATED and my kids you know…health insurance and stability of life, so I didn’t really have any time to worry about my last promotion until the bodies of all my enemies had finally floated by.
And since that is STILL happening today…who the fuck knows how long this is going to take. Especially since I keep making NEW enemies.
You know what the number one rule is when you are in a hole? STOP DIGGING! I just can’t seem to help myself though….I want to DIG to see what I can find.
And I know there are some who may think that I’m being a bit of a tease because I have never explained why so many top BLM managers had the ass for me.
BUT…I’m not really being a tease. I am just afraid to tell you the reason even though you are among my closest friends and confidants…cause it was kinda you know…BAD!
And considering the things I’m not AFRAID to tell you…that should get your attention.
Okay…okay. I know this whole Woody thing is a real Through The Looking Glass Distraction in a world where both Joy and I are infamous for following a White Rabbit 🐇 after a hookah smoking caterpillar 🐛 has given us the call.
But…it’s just that a buddy forwarded that article to me because he knows how much I hate that corrupt mother fucker Woody.
And well…the rest is history. But…I’m going to get my head straight tonight and get back on task writing and pontificating about my usual pointless topics and Random Thoughts tomorrow.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl89g2SwMh4
One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small
And the ones that mother gives you, don’t do anything at all
Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall
And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you’re going to fall
Tell ’em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call
And call Alice, when she was just small
When the men on the chessboard get up and tell you where to go
And you’ve just had some kind of mushroom, and your mind is moving low
Go ask Alice, I think she’ll know
When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead
And the white knight is talking backwards
And the red queen’s off with her head
Remember what the dormouse said
Feed your head, feed your head
Actually…I heard Stepanek was living with the Russian in Vladivostok working for USAID. I just couldn’t remember the name of the city so I just through Siberia out there. I don’t know if Vladivostok is in Siberia or not? Maybe? I do know it couldn’t have happened to a nicer guy though.
I mean…fuckin’ RUSSIANS?
I remember when the fuckin’ Russians were our geopolitical foes and they posed an existential threat to our Republic and they weren’t the operational auxiliary to the Republican Party and the Committee to Re-elect the President.
Likely those fellows that OK’d the GMHS crew do not want their names attached now that they see their error and it looks like another cronie cover your back story with Willis doing quite a lot of that just as he testified for Amanda against Joy when Amanda attempted to quash Joy’s inquiry into the matters of the GMHS crew deaths.
Did you mean to write “Classless act?”
No but the Woody story gives a clue to why Reno and the BATF went all out and wound up killing 80 some women, kids and others following a nut like Koresh. People are sometimes confounded by these Koresh types–remember that Jim Jones killed about 900 with poison but the people he and BATF killed mostly after a time come to their senses.
I can see how they want the publicity. It amazed me that the public in the Waco murders were generally cheering for the BATF and all the publicity they and Janet Reno were getting was on the positive side. I was writing a lot of letters to the editor at the time and living out of my truck haluling wood down mostly from the Cloudcroft area at the time. Most of them were published but several people, including one FBI agent that bought my wood warned me. He had taken out a dope dealer that had killed his son with dope but off the record–yet he never quit buying wood from me nor did I quit my letters to the editor. But your expression of how some of these people in high government work just shows how some of them that get to where you were have no business there.
It goes to show the cronyism that goes on–Prescott area is one of the worse and how a man like Marsh could be put in a place that he never should have been. Good that you point out these things–there needs to be some house cleaning–get rid of those housekeepers that keep sweeping the dirt under the rug or are so dumb they knock over the valuable vases and scratch up the furniture.
1. “Interesting high profile or special events” interest the news media in covering said events because readers and viewers like us, like to read about and view interesting and high profile events.
2. Everyone who is media savvy has learned that if you create such an event and invite the news media, they will come and cover whatever high profile or special event you are creating.
3. This phenomenon then creates the opportunity for news media savvy people to promote, celebrate, and highlight whatever those people want push. It is quite often, “Hey…look at us and how we are using X, Y, or Z to make your life as a taxpayer better, safer, more fulfilling.” “Oh…and by the way, if we had MORE X, Y, or Z, we would even be able to do a better job for you to make your life better, safer and more fulfilling.”
So yes, David Koresh had convinced his followers that he was Jesus Christ incarnate and as such, he should be able to sexually molest and rape all of the underage girls he wanted to while he amassed a huge cache or firearms that violated the Federal Firearms Act.
And rather than wait for him to drive to Waco to do some shopping or whatever and stopping, isolating, and safely taking him into custody while sepersted from his fanatical followers, fortified compound and huge stock of unlawful weapons and his large harem of underage girls he routinely molested and raped because he was a sexual deviant
The ATF decided to demonstrate their capabilities to execute a high profile and dynamic search warrant on the compound but unfortunately, four young ATF agents were killed almost immediately who left young families behind while many more were wounded. At the same time, the ATF Agents fired into the compound killing and wounding an unknown number of Koresh’s followers.
If we asva a democracy want to make sure this doesn’t happen again, we need to convince our representatives, (since we are a Democrat Republic) to legalize the molesting and raping of underage girls and eliminate the National Firearms Act.
As an alternative, all law enforcement agencies could be restricted from executing high profile and dynamic search warrants to simply create a media event by saying, “Hey…look at us and how well we are doing the jobs you hired us to do and spending the funding you gave us and by the way, if you gave us more funding, we could do an even better job to make your life better or safer. So…how about it?”
Which is pretty much the way it is now except people like Woody are still out there managing and supervising agencies with guns and police powers when he coukd really do a much better job of….well, I can’t think of a job Woody coukd do better except maybe just spend all of his time attending Gun and Sporting Shows and visiting both his and his wife’s families in either SLC or ABQ.
See, that is a holdover from my fire operations center days when I didn’t have time to write out Salt Lake City and I didn’t know how to spell…ABQ.
Quite apparent that Prescott city works on the good old boy crony system. If one of the cronies says this is our man, then he is in like Flynn. You do not bother to see if he is trustworthy and whether he lied to get his job.
That is a shame when people that are put in charge of the safety and lives of so many men are not by mandatory checked out for their competence
When I worked as a probation officer and as a counsellor for first time offenders for the State of Texas at El Paso, that investigation was so thorough that they even knew that I wore boots and not shoes. Nothing was skipped from my school records, criminal background check, behaviors at the University level to visits with old acquaintances and family. Yet all I was doing was counselling first time offenders on probation.
I can understand a thorough background check there since reputations were at stake. But when lives and reputations are at stake and at a supervisory capacity, then someone needs to be reprimanded and the system set proper.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD POCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** YCSO GAVE GRANITE MOUNTAIN GPS UNITS BACK TO FAMILY MEMBERS
YCSO = Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office
I said down below that there was a “lot of things to unpack” in those recently-published PODCASTS co-authored by Andrew Ashcraft’s mother Deborah Pfingston and former Granite Mountain Hotshot Doug Harwood.
Here is just one more of those things… and it’s a whopper.
In their Episode 5… Deborah Pfingston says that handheld GPS units recovered from the Granite Mountain deployment site had ALWAYS been in the possession of the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office… and that some of them were eventually just returned to GM family members without having EVER entered the official ‘evidence chain’.
Remember… in additiona to IM Forum poster calvin being the first one to ‘spot’ at least one of the GM GPS Units ‘hiding in plain sight’ on Robert Caldwell’s packstrap ( as seen in a photo taken by Christopher Mackenzie that same day and just hours before he and the others would die ) survivor Brendan McDonough himself testified to ADOSH that GM always carried at least FOUR handheld GPS units with them when on assignments.
Here is Deborah Pfingston ( and Harwood ) said in their recently published PODCAST…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 05: Heartbreak, Frustration, Anger
Published: March 30, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-5-Heartbreak–Frustration–Anger-e3jn07
In Episode 5, Part 1…
———————————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston: I wanna bring up a small story here. Two years after… in two-thousand fifteen… the families discovered that the Sheriff’s department had personal items from the crew.. uhm… from the fatality site… and we had to FIGHT for those personal items. Originally they said they didn’t have them. We… our attorney helped us get them. We had a listing… and it was so frustrating because n that list of items were cellphones… GPS Garmins… uhm… that we could have LOOKED at. We could’ve… when the investigation… obviously the investigators didn’t look at them, either, for the Serious Accident Investigation Report. And it… it was a… it was just a bunch of odd, fickle items and the way the fire blew through there… uh… we were with a family that when they received their box of items after we fought for it… uhm… that opened their items and it looked like that crew member just took off his clothes, folded them up, and put them in the box. And… when I opened up Andrew’s box… uhm… there was very little left. The collar on his shirt. The buttons down his chest. The front of his pants. Uhm… there was… it was… it… it was pretty rough. And there were also items that they didn’t know who belonged to who, and I certainly hope those are treated well, but this fatality site is an interesting spot. They stayed together… uhm… you know… they didn’t leave each other… and also… if you go to a fatality spot, someday, and you see how the crosses are placed… those crosses were placed at the crew member’s head so it lines down. So if Andrew… he was right next to Travis Carter… uhm… John Percin… uhm… and so… when you see that… uh… that’s where they died. It… it’s… it’s pretty emo… emotional. Uhm…
Doug Harwood: It’s also… it’s just super interesting I think, Deborah, that there’s GPSes and phones… perfect things that show locations where people were and they just weren’t used in the… in this investigation. And not even known… not even talked about for years after.
Deborah Pfingston: And they weren’t plannin’ on talkin’ about it at all. We just happened to find out that the Sheriff had these items… and, originally, they DENIED that they did.
———————————————————————————————————-
Both Pfingston and Harwood also seem convinced that the ( multiple ) Granite Mountain GPS units had NEVER been examined by any investigators… but in an email obtained by InvestigativeMEDIA we learned that even though these units were NEVER submitted to the Arizona Counter Terrorism Information Center ( ACTIC ) team for analysis and data retrieval ( like the cellphones were )… somehow Mike Dudley of the SAIT seemed to be completely aware of their existence and that the SAIT did have a chance to ‘examine’ them prior to them finishing the SAIT report.
But ADOSH was never made aware that the GPS units even existed.
** THE MUSSER / DUDLEY EMAIL
Here is Paul Musser communicating directly with USFS employee and SAIT Co-Lead Mike Dudley about the ‘investigative’ work he’s doing helping the Arizona Attorney General’s Office ( AG ) defeat the Yarnell lawsuits.
Mike Dudley’s email response to Musser is also included below.
The TIMEFRAME on this email from Musser to Dudley actually matches the time where we were discussing, right here on this forum, the Granite Mountain GPS units and the fact that Calvin had already spotted at least ONE of them sitting ‘in plain view’. in that McKenzie photograph.
Based on that ‘timing’… it would appear that Paul Musser was ‘following the conversation’ here on this forum and then felt he better ‘get out ahead of that’ on behalf of the Attorney General’s office and initiate his OWN queries about whether any GPS units really were ever recovered from the deployment site.
Here is Musser’s email TO Mike Dudley…
——————————————————————————————————–
From: PAUL MUSSER ( dmuss9 (at) xxx.com )
Sent: Monday, June 30, 2014 6:51 PM
To: Dudley, Mike -FS
Subject: Yarnell
Mike I have been doing a lot of work on Yarnell for the AG. A question I have is were any of the Granite Mt GPS units in working order and
if so were they checked for track logs or way points from the 30th and what base map they had.
Paul Musser
928-853-XXXX dmuss9 (at) xxx.com
———————————————————————————————————
And here is Mike Dudley’s REPLY to Paul Musser…
NOTE: This is actually Mike Dudley giving Jim Karels ( and others from the SAIT including Randy Okon ) a ‘heads up’ about this exchange with Paul Musser… and Dudley showing Karels exactly how he responded to Musser about the Granite Mountain GPS units.
Mike Dudley tells Paul Musser they did not have an ‘recoverable GPS data’ from Granite Mountain ( only from Blue Ridge )… but Dudley does not actually SAY, unequivocally, that they didn’t actually recover any GPS units themselves from Granite Mountain. He ( Dudley ) only says they didn’t have any ‘recoverable GPS data’ for GM.
———————————————————————————————————–
From: Dudley, Mike -FS ( mdudley (at) fs.fed.us )
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 10:22 AM
To: Karels, Jim; Draeger, Randy -FS; Wilson, Richa -FS
Subject: FW: Yarnell
Jim,
Just letting you know the question I received from Paul Musser and my response back to him. See below.
Mike Dudley
Director State & Private Forestry lntermountain I Northern Regions
801-625-5253 mdudley (at) fs.fed.us h t t p: //www.fs.usda.gov/goto/rlr4spf
From: Dudley, Mike -FS
Sent: Tuesday, July 01, 2014 8:21 AM
To: ‘PAUL MUSSER’
Subject: RE: Yarnell
Paul,
We did not have any GPS records available or recoverable from the GMIHC. The only GPS data came from the BRIHC, their captain like to carry his own personal GPS and he kept that on all day.
That data is part of the case file.
Hope all is well, all things considered. MD
Mike Dudley
Director State & Private Forestry lntermountain I Northern Regions
801-625-5253 mdudley (at) fs.fed.us h t t p: //www.fs.usda.gov/goto/rlr4spf
————————————————————————————————————
So Dudley actually DOES seem to acknowldege that the SAIT had access to one or more GM GPS units… and ADOSH was NEVER even informed of their existence… but Dudley does not actually SAY what the ‘condition’ of those GPS units was or what exact attempts were made to ‘examine’ them.
NOTE: EPROM and FLASH memory can last for up to 35 years… even after batteries die.
( Continued next ‘Reply’ )
( Continued from previous post… )
Notice up above that Deborah Pfingston says…
“…the families discovered that the Sheriff’s department had personal items from the crew.. uhm… from the fatality site… and we had to FIGHT for those personal items. Originally they said they didn’t have them. We… our attorney helped us get them. We had a listing… and it was so frustrating because in that list of items were cellphones… GPS Garmins…”
Since her “Our Investigation, Our Truth” is neither an “investigation”, nor is it the “truth” *( and is really just a jumble of theories and opinions ) she ( of course ) is not allowing anyone to SEE this ‘evidence’ she supposedly has… like this LIST of personal items she is now saying the Sheriff’s Office supplied.
That LIST would/should now just be part of the case file… and a PUBLIC document.
If it were known how MANY GPS Units were returned to family members, and WHO received them… it MAY still be possible to recover data from them even if they were slightly damaged.
As I pointed out above… EPROM and FLASH memory can last for up to 35 years, even though the unit remained without power and stone-cold dead for all that time.
** MCDONOUGH’S TESTIMONY TO ADOSH
And just for reference… here is Brendan McDonough CONFIRMING to multiple ADOSH investigators that Granite Mountain normally had at least FOUR hand-held GPS units with them any time they were ‘out in the field’…
From Brendan McDonough’s second ( of two ) ADOSH interviews on October 10, 2013…
Q1 = Bruce Hanna, ADOSH Investigator
Q2 = Marshall Krotenberg, ADOSH Investigator
A = Brendan McDonough, Granite Mountain Hotshot
—————————————————————————————————
1655 Q1: Yeah, I got a question for Brendan. You’ve talked about GPS. Are you aware
1656 of any hotshot crew that’s using those kind of technologies right now?
1657
1658 A: I th- I’ve – we had GPSs. We had the little portable ones.
1659
1660 Q1: Okay.
1661
1662 A: So – and I’m sh- I’m pretty positive a lot of other hotshot crews have GPSs,
1663 too.
1664
1665 Q2: Mm-hm.
1713 A: But I – I think we had four of ‘em.
1714
1715 Q2: Four?
1716
1717 A: Four to six, maybe more on the crew.
1718
1719 Q2: Mm-hm. Yeah.
1720
1721 A: And I think the ones that we had, you could – they communicated through
1722 each other, I guess, the GPSs. You could, like, send points or something, I
1723 think.
1724
1725 Q1: Hm.
1741 Q: Do you remember if it was a Garmin or a different…
1742
1743 A: I think it was a Garmin.
1744
1745 Q: Okay.
1746
1747 A: I would say it was a Garmin.
1751 A: You know, I – I wanna say we had – at least had four of ‘em. That sound, uh,
1752 that sounds about right.
—————————————————————————————————-
Brendan McDonough testified to ADOSH…
“We had GPSs. We had the little portable ones.”
“FOUR to SIX, maybe MORE on the crew.”
“I wanna say we had – at LEAST had FOUR of ‘em.”
So even when ADOSH was VERY INTERESTED in determining whether or not GM might have had any GPS Units with them that day… they were still totally UNAWARE that any number of GPS Units HAD been recovered from the deployment site… and that they were sitting over at the Yavapai County Sheriff’s Office… and Mike Dudley and the rest of the SAIT were totally aware of their existence.
They ( YCSO, Dudley and the SAIT ) decided to make sure the ADOSH investigators did NOT know they were there.
so if she has the stuff-
why hasn’t she made his map and location and etc public yet?
I am stumped
She has the tools in that box than she has to know what I know and why has she not for the common ground of this come meet with me…
What gives?
Reply to Joy A Collura post on June 17, 2019 at 2:42 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> What gives?
Good question. Probably has a one-word answer…
Agenda.
Even though she pretends to rail against what she, herself, calls the “Granite Mountain ( Propoganda ) Machine” in her public podcast(s)… she doesn’t seem to notice that she’s just part of that ‘Machine’ herself.
It is obvious from listening to her ‘podcasts’ that she ( and Harwood ) had a ‘prime directive’ during this psuedo-investigation of theirs that went something like this…
“Granite Mountain was the greatest, bestest, most superiffic Hotshot crew that there ever was…. and they were totally incapable of making any bad decisions… or ever doing ANYTHING wrong… so everything that happened to them on June 30, 2013 MUST have been someone else’s fault”.
Yeah. Right. Whatever.
Not exactly the way to conduct an ‘investigation’… but when you are just ‘pretending’ to do so… it can be your ‘thing’.
Any ‘evidence’ she or Harwood may have ‘accidentally’ gathered that did NOT meet their ‘prime directive’ was obviously ignored. So, in a sense, their “Our Investigation, Our Truth” was no better than the SAIT whitewash. Maybe even worse.
Example: If Pfingston and Harwood really DID manage to obtain UNREDACTED copies of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs… then there must be TONS of small details now revealed that would add to the ‘total picture’ of what really happened that Sunday in Yarnell.
But even after ‘announcing’ they ( supposedly ) had this material… the ONLY mention of anything from it was their blurb about finally discovering that Granite Mountain HAD been “calling for help” MULTIPLE times, on MULTIPLE radio frequencies… for some time prior to that final Air-To-Ground radio transmission at 4:39 PM, recorded by Prescott National Forest employee Aaron Hulburd.
And the ONLY ‘context’ they were even ‘assigning’ to THAT information was just more “Oh look… Granite Mountain was always doing the right thing from out at the deployment site and no one was listening to them… so it’s all someone else’s fault”.
They don’t even stop for one moment to think what that information might REALLY mean… and how it might actually suggest another whole ‘scenario’ for what might have actually happened that day.
Let me explain…
If they DO have solid ‘evidence’ of these multiple ‘callouts’ from Granite Mountain on multiple radio channels, prior to the final A2G callout… then it all comes down to TIME.
Pfingston tried to suggest that these ‘additional radio calls for help” might have been going on for up to FIFTEEN MINUTES prior to the final A2G exchange. Doug Harwood jumped in ( as he did throughout the podcasts ) and tried to ‘temper’ Pfingston’s ‘leaps’ and reminded her that even in the supposedly UNREDACTED logs they have they could not ( quoting Harwood ) “be sure about the times”.
Apparently… even with this information in hand… they made no attempt to try and VERIFY the times. More incompetence. More ‘total fail’.
There are people here on this forum that know the FULL ( current ) evidence record so well that those TIMES could probably be nailed down to within seconds, if they would only PUBLISH the information they say they have.
And let’s say it DOES turn out that Granite Mountain was “calling for help” for some number of MINUTES before that final call where Marsh said they were going into their shelters.
What if it really WAS upwards of FIFTEEN MINUTES… like Pfingston says the logs were showing?
Or what if it was just TEN minutes?
That would suggest an entirely different ( but plausible ) explanation for what might have happened that day.
Think about it.
If there is actual EVIDENCE that Granite Mountain might have been “calling for help” for anywhere between FIVE, TEN or FIFTEEN minutes before going into their shelters… then we all know that would mean that something was PREVENTING them from SAVING THEMSELVES out there in the box canyon.
In other words… if they KNEW they were in trouble for that amount of time, without either running FORWARD or BACKWARD to save themselves… then SOMETHING was actually keeping the crew “locked in place” out there in the box canyon and just continually “calling for help” on the radio.
That SOMETHING could have had nothing to do with the approaching fire.
It COULD indicate that the crew was “locked in place” and “calling for help” even BEFORE they noticed that the fire was about to “cut off their escape route”.
That could really only mean one thing.
There had been a SERIOUS INJURY to one ( or more ) of the crew members on the hike down into the canyon… and that one ( or more ) person(s) was unable to continue… so the initial “call for help” were related to THAT.
The Maricopa County Medical Examiner’s office has ALWAYS indicated that Clayton Whitted suffered serious BLUNT FORCE INJURIES prior to his death. The autopsy report says these ‘Blunt Force’ injuries were ‘subscalp hemorhages’, meaning the skin had not been broken and the ‘bleeding’ was UNDER the skin.
But the injuries were not small. The report says he had these ‘blunt force’ injuries on BOTH sides of his forehead. One was just slightly smaller than a standard book of matches, and the other one was about half that size.
That’s evidence of a big enough ‘blow to the head’ to have caused a ‘concussion’, and if it happened on the hike itself then Whitted could have easily been in pain and/or weak and confused following the injury. So even though he may have been still ‘on his feet’… it would have been VERY slow going continuing the hike down into the fuel-filled box canyon with someone who had sustained that kind of head injury.
Here is EXACTLY what the Medical Examiner WROTE DOWN when examining Clayton Whitted’s body…
———————————————————————————-
Clayton Whitted
Evidence of blunt force injuries include a 4 x 3 cm area of left frontal subscalp hemorrhage and a 3 x 1 cm area of right frontal subscalp hemorrhage.
INJURY DIMENSIONS…
LEFT FRONT SUBSCALP – 4 x 3 cm area = 1.57 inch x 1.18 inch area.
RIGHT FRONT SUBSCALP – 3 x 1 cm area = 1.18 inch x 0.39 inch area.
———————————————————————————-
Si it’s POSSIBLE things might have gone down this way…
1. Clayton Whitted suffered a serious FALL on the way down and was either unable to continue forward… or barely able to even with help from the others.
2.. GM got on the radio trying to “call for help” and report this situation, some minutes BEFORE the approaching fire became the actual threat.
3. This initial “call for help” went unanswered from OPS or whoever they were calling… but Eric Marsh ( who really was out ahead of them and closer to the BSR ) heard them…. and THAT is what made Eric Marsh start his trip BACK to the men out in the box canyon.
4. GM continued calling out on the radio… but NOT actually reporting what the situation was because no one was even acknowledging their TAC channel calls at all.
5. By the time Eric Marsh arrives back to where the men were ‘stationary’ out in the box canyon, and trying to figure out what to do about Whitted, the fire rounded the corner of the box canyon and actually did ( only then ) “cut off their escape route”.
6. THEN… the radio calls became all about “We are in front of the flaming front”, as Jesse Steed reported in that first 4:39 PM callout on the A2G channel.
A scenario like the one above actually WOULD explain a log of things that still don’t have answers, such as…
1. WHEN did Eric Marsh decide to GO BACK to be with the crew? It had to have been some time BEFORE Jesse Steed’s 4:39 PM radio callout.
2. WHY did Eric Marsh decide to GO BACK to be with the crew? Was is all about them realizing their ‘escape route’ was cut off… or was there some ’emergency’ ( like a serious injury ) BEFORE that which caused Marsh to decide to run back out to where the crew was.
Remember… it has ALWAYS remained a mystery that whenever Marsh decided to run back TO the men… why there wasn’t also time, at that moment, for the men to also run FORWARD to where Marsh was and SAVE themselves.
Well… one of the possible explanations MIGHT be that there were TWO serious developments prior to them having to ‘deploy’.
FIRST there was the ‘serious injury’ incident, which either totally slowed them down OR ‘locked them in place’ out in the box canyon “calling for help”.
THEN came the “our escape route had been cut off” realization… but only AFTER Marsh had already rejoined them because of the ‘injury’ incident.
Yes… I am “imagineering” here. Of course I am.
But that’s what you do when NEW EVIDENCE seems to come to light.
If Pfingston and Harwood really are RIGHT about there being MULTIPLE radio “calls for help” from Granite Mountain… for MULTIPLE MINUTES prior to the final A2G call… then it’s going to require some “imagineering” like the above to figure out the TIMING… and how they ended up dying that day.
If they ( Pfingston and Harwood ) really do have those “UNREDACTED Unit Logs… they need to PUBLISH THEM.
We can do the rest with regards to the TIMING on the radio calls.
I know you already know this, but I am going to go ahead and state the obvious anyway pertaining to the grand fallacy of their logic.
“Granite Mountain was the greatest, bestest, most superiffic Hotshot crew that there ever was…. and they were totally incapable of making any bad decisions… or ever doing ANYTHING wrong… so everything that happened to them on June 30, 2013 MUST have been someone else’s fault”.
If there was any truth to that belief, the GMIHC would still all be alive today because there are always overhead and simply CHAOS itself that are always present on every fire who try to kill every hotshot crew. But hotshot crews specialize in not letting anyone or anything kill them, including CHAOS.
But there was one force on that fire that Jesse Steed and every other member of that crew were powerless to protect themselves from because of who and what he was.
And of course that ONE person who was strong enough to kill that crew and the crew was unable to protect itself from…was Eric Marsh.
Jesse Steed was like me. If DIVISION ALPHA was any other person in the entire world other than Eric Marsh, he would have killed them with his bare hands before he ever would have let that happen.
And let me also add my own ‘stating the obvious’.
Just because I was “imagineering” a scenario above that MIGHT explain what MIGHT be this new evidence Pfingston and Harwood seem to have regrading how LONG ( sic: MULTIPLE MINUTES ) Granite Mountain was actually “calling for help” that day… that in NO WAY minimizes the bad decision making that put everyone into that situation that day in the first place.
Regardless of whether there was some kind of serious injury during the bushwhack through a blind box canyon full of explosive fuel at the height of the burn cycle… which just COMPOUNDED the blunder and contributed to fatalities…
…they still should have NEVER BEEN THERE IN THE FIRST PLACE.
Marsh decided to “roll the dice”… and Jesse decided to “stay at the table”. and keep his job… and the “house” won. The other 17 were just collateral damage.
Nice work on the imagineering. It’s really all we have if people are going to continue to overtly withhold evidence. Your theory is possible. Here’s your gift of appreciation:
https://www.gmihc19.org/about/
Reply to Woodsman post on
June 17, 2019 at 5:36 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> Nice work on the imagineering.
>> It’s really all we have if people are going
>> to continue to overtly withhold evidence.
>> Your theory is possible.
>>
>> Here’s your gift of appreciation:
https://www.gmihc19.org/about/
———————————————————-
GMIHC Learning and Tribute Center
Board Members
Board members are all volunteers,
and the center is operated by volunteer docents.
John Marsh – Chairman – Father of Hotshot Eric Marsh – Retired Educator
Tom Haney – Vice-Chairman – Firefighter
Jim Wren – Secretary – Parish Manager – Sacred Heart Catholic Parish
Dennis Bueschel – Treasurer – Retired Firefighter
Tony Shaw – Attorney at Law
Karen Norris – Mother of Hotshot Scott Norris – Retired Educator
John Heiney – City of Prescott Community Outreach Manager
Mardi Read – Assistant Superintendent PUSD
Katie Cornelius Dufort – Curator
Denyce Budd – Volunteer Coordinator
Jason Lohman – Law Enforcement Officer
————————————————————-
Unless there are a lot of Jason Lohman’s running around Prescott ( who are all LEOs )… I suppose the one on the GMIHC Learning Center Board is Amanda Lohman’s ( formerly Mrs. Amanda Marsh ) husband?
No ‘imagineering’ required there, then, to figure out why certain members of the public ( and both certified wildland firefighters ) are being ‘dis-invited’ from a fundraiser controlled by this ‘Board’.
As Joy pointed out down below… the ADOSH report was also critical of Granite Mountain’s decision making on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
So…. is no one who works for the Arizona Division of Occupational Safety and Health allowed to either contribute to this Arizona 5013C non-profit ( supported by public municipality City of Prescott ) or attend its publicly-announced events?
Will someone be administering a “Granite Mountain loyalty oath” at the door?
You REALLY Just. Can’t Make. This. Shit. Up.
Those people remind me if the “Soup Nazi”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7WRxEY8o3kc
“Marsh decided to “roll the dice”… and Jesse decided to “stay at the table”. and keep his job… and the “house” won. The other 17 were just collateral damage.”
I really like this paragraph, I have decided to use it in my book, but I’m not going to give anyone any credit for using their material because all of that footnoting looks like it way to much work.
But…great quote! Thanks. I think it really sums up what happened…beautifully.
Oh…and one more thing I really like your imagineering, but I think it would be best in this case to stick with the principles of “Occam’s Razor.”
I do however think Whiited’s injuries happened after they dropped down off the ridge because I think SOP (for me at least) would have been to leave Whiited with an EMT on the ridge in a comfortable spot until a medevac slick became available.
I also think (with my own imagineering) that a hotshot crew on the move like that wouldn’t spend any time either assessing or worrying about Whitted’s head injuries if it would have happened in a fall.
They knew there was nothing they could do there to make his internal injuries better because they were literally minute from safety (they thought) and a good extraction point fior Whitted, maybe even by vehicle?
In fact, I like that paragraph so much, I’m going to use it for my opener for my “That Stupid Fuck Eric Marsh Killed His Crew” chapter because my book editor, during tye very brief time a had a book editor and she quit because I became radioactive hot in Prescott, which was she was living, told me to always start out by really grabbing the readers attention in the first sentence or paragraph so they want to keep reading to find out more. Jeez, now that I think about it, she was the “Editor Nazi”, no book editing for you!
I mean…say what you want about the tenets of National Socialism Dude, at least it was an ethos.
And I’m not discounting the possibility that Whitted’s head injuries might have been self inflicted shortly before his death.
I mean…if I was being burned alive and I was coughing up chunks of my charred lung tissue so hard that I dislocated my tongue from the back of my throat, I think I might try to knock myself out?
I wrote that AGAIN just as a reminder to all of the people who are on that board just what this has all been about, because I think either they have forgotten or never knew exactly what the issue is.
I wonder if I need a permit from PPD to carry a sign in front of the historical and restored Elks Theatre in Prescott?
Historical footnote;
I used to be the ticket taker and usher who told the people to get their fuckin feet off the seats and put out their fuckin cigarettes in that theatre before they built the new one that had TWO screens in Prescott. I did the same thing at the old drive in movie theatre in Prescott because it was all owned by the same old couple, the Clines. It’s really weird how my mind works, I still remember the name of the theatre owners but I can’t remember what I did for the last three days. But…I guess I have always wanted to work in enforcement, but only to support truth, justice and the American way!
I had to wear this gold apron that was just like the white ones worn by tye people in the Geico commercials. Oh…and a tie. I think I must have looked very nice.
Nope, I just called them. Since it will just be me I don’t need a permit to protest just as long as my sign isn’t to big to pose a safety issue, I stay on the sidewalk and don’t actually try to enter the theatre, stay out of traffic, and don’t block the entrance to the theatre, they said I would be good to go.
I’ll see you Nazi mother fuckers there!
http://www.prescott-az.gov/services-safety/police/
Oh…and one more thing. Even though I can’t remember what I did for the last three, from the looks of this place, it must have been quite a party. I wish I would have been here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wA6ArC6aEeo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yodVzMaOjtk
And just remember…”Nobody fucks with The Jesus!”
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KdOjVsfuKPs
And I have some really great news for you! It turns out that The Jesus was falsely accused of being s pederast, and John Turturo has the blessing of the Coen Brothers to make an indie sequel to The Big Lebowski about The Jesus being falsely accused. called “Going P,aces.” So…you heard it here first!
https://www.indiewire.com/2017/08/the-big-lebowski-sequel-john-turturro-details-jesus-going-places-1201870287/
Reply to Gary Olson post on
June 18, 2019 at 8:06 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I wonder if I need a permit from PPD to carry
>> a sign in front of the historical and restored
>> Elks Theatre in Prescott?
>>
>> Historical footnote;
>>
>> I used to be the ticket taker and usher who
>> told the people to get their fuckin feet off
>> the seats and put out their fuckin cigarettes
>> in that theatre before they built the new one
>> that had TWO screens in Prescott.
And the ‘Gump’ index just continues to rise.
It’s actually getting kind of weird.
I keep telling everyone I was the original “Prescott Kid.”
Miller Valley Grade School Graduate
Prescott Junior High School. Graduate, 7th, 8, 9th grade football team.
Prescott High School, Graduate
Starting offensive and defensive tackle, Varsity Team both junior and senior years.
Junior Varsity Wrestling Team
Prescott High School Chess Team
Prescott High School Chess Club Vice President
Letterman’s Club
Yavapai College Graduate
Marlers Furniture, warehouseman, delivery man, carpet installer, furniture assembler, and janitor after school every day and on Saturdays and then I worked at the theatres in the evenings and at night…I never had to study because you know…I was majoring in Criminal Justice at Yavapai College, although the standard bonehead english, biology and math classes gave me a few scares.
There and at NAU, they don’t just give away BS degrees as party favors you know, even ones in Police Science and Criminal Justice with minors in Sociology.
Ask everyone…Marlers Furniture was an institution in town for decades until on line retailing finally killed it but not until about 2005 or so and there is still a Marlers Square. Everybody shopped at Marlers…am I right you Prescottonians?
Got tired of working at Marlers Furniture, although I was there for three years, so I went to work for Yavapai County Health Department in Mosquito control using methods that would get us indicted by the EPA today.
Then..on to begin my grand career as a WLF for the Prescott National Forest until I graduated to NAU and the Mighty Coconino.
Nobody…and I mean nobody grew up more “Prescott” than I did! I am a true Son Of Prescott!
As a matter of fact, once the scales fall from their eyes, all of the citizens of Prescott will both be proud of me and grateful that I had the courage, training, knowledge, skills and abilities to tell them the truth about what happened to our beloved hotshot crew.
I am quite sure there are far more Prescott people who are proud of me, than hate me.
Do you know how many negative, much less hate emails I have gotten in the last 6 years? Of course you don’t because that is a rhetorical question, but I will tell you.
And garylolson@yahoo,com is my real email box, not a shadow email box, the real one I use for everything that I have repeatedly encouraged people to email me at if they want to vent against me and tell me what they really think of me.
And this number includes EVERYBODY, WLF, Yavapai County Cosa Nostra, Prescott National Forest WLF, GMIHC family members, citizens of Prescott, you name it, the Grand Total is ONE (1) and that came from Amanda Beno Marsh about six years ago.
I think everyone I just mentioned knows I am right. Do you know how many POSITIVE emails I have gotten offering words of support and encouragement to stay the course? Far too many to count.
So…I’m good and I’m doing the right thing…for the right reasons.
Now please don’t light up my in-box tomorrow, give me a couple of days to get mentally prepared.
Oh…and one more thing because you know how much I hate to emphasize my better issues.
While I was growing up as the “Prescott Kid” in what really was an idyllic setting in a small town located in the mountains of central Arizona that was more like Mayberry than Mayberry. but it was quite a bit bigger.
While growing up in Prescott, I was also celebrated by the community in the Daily Courier (newspaper) for being the highest ranking Eagle Scout in the Prescott area because before getting my drivers license at 16, I became obsessed with working on BS merit badges and going on complex hikes in the Grand Canyon to earn patches for those hikes,
Anyway…during that phase of my life, I became an Eagle Scout with a Silver Palm (I think silver was there highrst one, because for every five merit badges above the 21 required to be an Eagle Scout you earned another “rank.” There were three above an Eagle Scout represented by metal “Palm leaves” you coukd pin on your Eagle Scout Ribbon.
Oh…and one more thing. I don’t think Marlers Furniture was put out of business, I think they just decided to go out of business.
Marlers Furniture was started by…Mr. Marler way back when and it became a small and modestly successful business.
But then my furniture business employer and mentor, Roy Campbell married Mr. Marler’s daughter and took over the business and over the next several decades built it into a hugely successful business. And Roy made lots of money while providing Prescott and the suounding area with great furniture and service at fair prices. I made a lot of deliveries and did carpet installations as far away as Bagdad.
Roy was a devout Mormon and leader in the LDS Church in Prescott and the LDS Church pretty much ran Prescott back in the day and I think they probably still do.
Roy was the first head of the Yavapai College Board Of Directors and I think he is the man most responsible for obpverseeing the creation of Yavapai College. Roy was a Prescott area mover and shaker and a very powerful and influential business man.
Roy’s son Steve eventually took over the business but I don’t think Steve was into it as much as Roy had been, but Steve also became a local powerbroker, especially on the local school board.
Steve was probably just ready to retire and he didn’t have any kids that wanted to run Marlers Furniture, although you guessed it, Steve had lots of kids and probably a pile of money from the investments Roy has made around town.
So…don’t feel sorry for Marlers Furniture, they had a good run than lasted for three generations.
FYI…I think it is part of the Master Plan of the Mormon Church to have the most influence in the communities they live in by always going for control of the school boards first and foremost.
You know…control the school boards and you control education, control education and you control the children and what and how they learn, control the children…and you control the FUTURE. Pretty fuckin smart!
I really liked working for Roy and admired him as a man and mentor. It’s just that carpet installation was killing my fuckin knees. Especially my right one that still bothers me to this day because carpet installers are always using a “kicker” to move huge pieces of carpet around as they IpIpinstall it and they will kick the same place on their dominant knee hundreds of times a day and sometimes they even miss most of the pad and catch the metal arm on the corner of it which hurts like a you-know-what. So…don’t ever become a carpet installer kids, it’s all contract work these days that doesn’t pay much, uses you up and then throws you on the trash heap. Just…you know…FYI.
Just another bonus piece from reading IM, your source for who-knows-what and sometimes, it’s even about the Yarnell Hill Fire Disaster.
Gary,
And one more thing … I too am an Eagle Scout from back in the day as well as Brotherhood Order of the Arrow. member
More kinship
I hired Eagle Scouts without even doing any background checks on them and every one turned out to be exceptional Hot Shots
And since you were talking about leadership styles awhile back, finally catching up here.
“The Impact of Participative and Directive Leadership on Organisational Culture: An Organisational Development Perspective”
( https://www.mcser.org/journal/index.php/mjss/article/viewFile/4744/4602 )
For some odd reason, the Europeans don’t like the letter “Z” and replace them with “S”
This was included in their summary: ” … participative leadership had a stronger effect on organisational culture than when was combined with directive leadership. The present study therefore, recommends managers to use participative leadership in their efforts to adapt their organisational cultures to achieve a sustained competitive culture. However, directive leadership may be used in certain organisational contingencies that demand it.”
So saith the researchers, even though they’re Italians
Gary- you meant Preskitt Kid- right?
Since we are posting sentiments and history-
here ya go:
Let’s do it…
https://youtu.be/TVqly9G2P9A
(Sonny and I use to watch this show- nowadays I can recap via YOUTUBE)
WE NEED TO PUMP THESE KIDS TODAY-
versus them pumping and lifting us up—
They deserve the stories and true leadership sharing…Thanks.
History matters …screeccchhhhh…but why ya bringing it up nooooowwww…they closed over a decade ago…you dream about Bagdad installing….??? Did you work with Harry? Knees aching?
Hotel St. Michael is where it all began in the 40’s, Gar- Steve? I always thought it was Matt…or wasn’t it Brian? hee hee Quirky Matt when I would stop in he was “the cleaner” and he made me smile…he was about a decade older than me…quirky fella…Thank you for getting nostalgic…In the 80’s I use to sing with our Church Choir in Cave Creek up there in Prescott for the Summers and my teen youth group led by Pastor Ben Pitney (https://w ww.v ailchristian.co m/meettheteam ) (go to my blog front page – he looks like my Doc but it was my teen Pastor when the phase I was driven in from the hood of South Phoenix to my Arcadia days) We would go up to Ben’s mom Lenell (444 El Monte Dr – behind J&G/Post Office) (I was at their wedding and they are still together and I am still with same person too) up on the top of the hill looking over Prescott. Ben and Linda were so good to us youth and it is people like Ben and Linda and Robert and Martha Irvine ( h tt p://p innaclelife.weebly.c o m/about-us.html ) is why I keep at it with telling one of the hardest events and my mother said God placed me and Sonny on the Weavers for His Purpose and as you begin to learn this Summer more…working on my Staff Ride post…I wondered do you wanna HEAR John Truett or just a transcript? I can let you hear his actual voice what he thinks a staff ride is…
h tt ps://history.churchofjesuschrist.o r g/missionary/individual/fendon-allen-marler-1898?lang=eng
God Bless Him…Died Too Young…
I think you would be happy as that door closed – their ties to the Fire Industry is strong as its in their resources on one of their sites (h tt ps://vicentelandscaping.c o m/resources/ )
and if God never shared me this couple early on…and let me know it is going to be just fine as I faced what most kids and teens should never have to- this couple is forever in my heart- always
https://www.sibleyswest.com/blog/remembering-dr-carolyn-feller-of-carolyns-classics/
then when this fire happened and I was grungy on the trails and my times just relaxing outside the fire The Putnam family forever touched my heart in a way all the people named above…
For Dave Larsen..for Pete Masiel…For the man Charlie Moseley…and for Duane and Willis’ good friend…for all of you I will not give up…You have touched my heart in a way is priceless yet sure miss the trails with Sonny because you NEVER knew what you were gonna learn or do or be…He changed me for the better.
I for a moment spent time with a GMHS loved one and in that THAT person showed me no matter how drained or haggard I purely felt the love…
Even though I joke that RTS and I clash…
we do.
Yet I want the world to know I would never know him if it was not for Holly Neill – she sent information Fall 2017 that I fact checked and it ended up being a concern and I hope as time she learns when someone is telling her something FACT CHECK because the information was false. You should never spew out that kinda information like that…I pray for you…because when you take a side and state you have Eric’s back…there is no sides and should not be a division in this…this should be raw and real and show it like it is…so true lessons can be learned…
I have explained my flaws throughout this process and I will continue to be flawed…I never was groomed like some take on in this lifetime…yet when I pass on I know I did right by those kids of the GMHS…I want them to know someone dug as deep as they could versus relying on others to do it and just read it…
Gary-
Since we are posting sentiments and history-
here ya go:
Let’s do it…
h t t ps://youtu.be/TVqly9G2P9A
(Sonny and I use to watch this show- nowadays I can recap via YOUTUBE)
WE NEED TO PUMP THESE KIDS TODAY-
versus them pumping and lifting us up—
They deserve the stories and true leadership sharing…Thanks.
History matters …screeccchhhhh…but why ya bringing it up nooooowwww…they closed over a decade ago…you dream about Bagdad installing….??? Did you work with Harry? Knees aching?
Hotel St. Michael is where it all began in the 40’s, Gar- Steve? I always thought it was Matt…or wasn’t it Brian? hee hee Quirky Matt when I would stop in he was “the cleaner” and he made me smile…he was about a decade older than me…quirky fella…Thank you for getting nostalgic…In the 80’s I use to sing with our Church Choir in Cave Creek up there in Prescott for the Summers and my teen youth group led by Pastor Ben Pitney (h t t p s://w ww.v ailchristian.c o m/meettheteam ) (go to my blog front page – he looks like my Doc but it was my teen Pastor when the phase I was driven in from the hood of South Phoenix to my Arcadia days) We would go up to Ben’s mom Lenell (444 El Monte Dr – behind J&G/Post Office) (I was at their wedding and they are still together and I am still with same person too) up on the top of the hill looking over Prescott. Ben and Linda were so good to us youth and it is people like Ben and Linda and Robert and Martha Irvine ( h t t p ://p innaclelife.weebly.c o m/about-us.html ) is why I keep at it with telling one of the hardest events and my mother said God placed me and Sonny on the Weavers for His Purpose and as you begin to learn this Summer more…working on my Staff Ride post…I wondered do you wanna HEAR John Truett or just a transcript? I can let you hear his actual voice what he thinks a staff ride is…
h t t ps://history.churchofjesuschrist.o r g/missionary/individual/fendon-allen-marler-1898?lang=eng
God Bless Him…Died Too Young…
I think you would be happy as that door closed – their ties to the Fire Industry is strong as its in their resources on one of their sites (h t t ps://vicentelandscaping.c o m/resources/ )
and if God never shared me this couple early on…and let me know it is going to be just fine as I faced what most kids and teens should never have to- this couple is forever in my heart- always
https://www.sibleyswest.com/blog/remembering-dr-carolyn-feller-of-carolyns-classics/
then when this fire happened and I was grungy on the trails and my times just relaxing outside the fire The Putnam family forever touched my heart in a way all the people named above…
For Dave Larsen..for Pete Masiel…For the man Charlie Moseley…and for Duane and Willis’ good friend…for all of you I will not give up…You have touched my heart in a way is priceless yet sure miss the trails with Sonny because you NEVER knew what you were gonna learn or do or be…He changed me for the better.
I for a moment spent time with a GMHS loved one and in that THAT person showed me no matter how drained or haggard I purely felt the love…
Even though I joke that RTS and I clash…
we do.
Yet I want the world to know I would never know him if it was not for Holly Neill – she sent information Fall 2017 that I fact checked and it ended up being a concern and I hope as time she learns when someone is telling her something FACT CHECK because the information was false. You should never spew out that kinda information like that…I pray for you…because when you take a side and state you have Eric’s back…there is no sides and should not be a division in this…this should be raw and real and show it like it is…so true lessons can be learned…
I have explained my flaws throughout this process and I will continue to be flawed…I never was groomed like some take on in this lifetime…yet when I pass on I know I did right by those kids of the GMHS…I want them to know someone dug as deep as they could versus relying on others to do it and just read it…
Thank you for the information. And I too, earned my Brotherhood Of tye Order Of Arrow.
Oh…and just one more thing. I was never the highest ranking Eagle Scout in the Prescott area.
The newspaper reporter from the Prescott Courier who took the photo at the last ceremony were I was given my awards heard that part of the story wrong. I think they said something about me being tye highest ranking Boy Scout there that night.
But as you know, for guys who are dedicated Boy Scouts, going above Eagle Scout is quite common. If memory serves me correctly, you went at least as far as I did?
My Boy Scout Troop was very active because it was through the Mormon Church there in Prescott.
Fun Factoid; The LDS Church was the very First organization to partner with the Boy Scouts Of America and they had a relationship that was very important to both organizations that went back a really long time, 100 or more years in fact.
But…they severed thrur relationship last year over the BSA admitting openly gay members and Scout Masters too…I think? Anyway, it was a gay break up.
I don’t know what the Mormon Church does now because Boy Scouting was the central focus of their youth programs for young men? Came up with Boy Scout Troops under a new name I suspect?
And Joy…I love you too babe…so keep up the good work and try to stay healthy.
WTKTT–The scenario you described was entirely possible. That trek down the mountain from the two track is now a very windy trail hand built to make it easier to manage the steep decline. The decline was so steep going down that Fire Investigator Bruce Hanna took a terrible tumble as he descended with Joy and I and his fellow investigator Brett. It was everything you could do to manage the trek down. I am sure footed since a child having advantage of trekking mountainous terrain. But even I had to be careful of not taking a fall coming down–I had arrived to the death site maybe 20 seconds before Brett who is an accomplished marathon runner. Joy and Bruce followed up some minutes later. and I do believe he also had a head injury–I had not seen him fall but Joy who was with him likely did. I had commented he ought to ask for early retirement–he was actually in bad pain so my comment in retrospect was some inappropriate.
To describe the decent more clearly therer was no longer any brush to help your decent–it depended totally upon a good sense of balance and otherwise you best decend very slowly–Joy and Bruce were much behind–more than ten minutes as I recall. Even with good balance there were loose rocks and if you fell it was easy to fall into a huge boulder below you. There were many the way we went down which might have been almost exactly the way GMHS went. I am a damn good roller skater and that helps on that trek down cause you are definitely roller skating on loose rock many times before reaching the canyon bottom. It was very hard to keep your feet from flying out from under you.
Sometimes I do believe that it will take the young children to put out the truth. Phingston and others of her ilk are doing as WTKTT says–still attempting to protect Marsh, Steed and decisions made that might taint the name of GMHS. Those young men are not at fault–their creed was to follow orders without question so they all fell in line to play Russian Roulette.
I suppose I am stymied why they were in such close proximity to a boulder field not more than 70 yards from them where with 15 minutes they could have carried any injured man and found some distance from vegetation and the fire–even if they did not know there were huge bouldeers and under ground positions to take in the boulder field they had at least a foot ball field size of boulder area to center themselvs in and 15 minutes was quite feasible to do. I suppose I always ruminate that fact because I intentionally led Joy through the boulders in case the fire had turned and would cap the mountain as we descended the other side. You did not need to know much to know those giant boulders had places underneath big enough for a bear or lions den and they do hole up in that area. I had mentioned many times that when I had topped the Weavers I had alread felt the wind shift and that increased my alarm bells so much that I had to decend back down in that 100 degree heat and find Joy to get her away from thinking she would make it out her way. Her boots were off–she donned them and finally we were on our way out–and by fortune beat it out only by about ten minutes when we should have had an hour. One of the reasons I felt there had to have been a burn going on soon after we topped the mountain. That fire was a long ways in the distance toward Peeples Valley yet it is given a reversal of the fire even three or four miles away in that thick manzanita could move damn fast with a 40 mph wind behind it. The 11 mph estimate given by Willis of the velocity the fire was moving toward GMHS would have taken only 16 minutes to travel 3 miles.
In the meantime Joy has sent me photos of the throat cancer of Dr Pete Anderson–Yarnell fire board member upset at the way the investigation was botched. He is a health specialist and been so for years–no smoker, religious person, knew and used vitamins, etc and methods he even taught to others to maintain a healthy body. God the photos are ugly so will not be posted. Joy says throat cancer is now a common occurance with Yarnellites. My cancers are bad enough but I do not want one of those people are getting there. Am I missing something? Duh.
Sonny-
Pete died last year
I saw those photos some time back and if I get anything that looks even a little bit like those did, I will shoot myself in my fuckin head.
Joy, likely now that you and others are coming out with the facts, Phingston and some are confirming and realizing that they need to start reforming their act. Too many of them have allowed the false reporting under various excuses. Either they did not want to rock the boat or they were afraid of those Woody types that Gary informs us about.
It is disgusting to see people that have no fortitude nor conscience to stand up for the truth when they know it is wrong to allow a lie. And even more disgusting when the lie affects the future lives of young heroes and deceives the loved ones and public of their right to know.
But then the Leprechaun might be turned loose by the Irish Gods and good old Jesus must shed his tears at such methods of chicanery.
This has been a long work at coming to the truth of what happened at Yarnell. I would hope eventually some agencies like the FBI enter into the investigation so that some real house cleaning can come about. I think misuse of Federal funds might be something to bring them in. I do know that Peeples valley Fire Chief now retired said he reported Type 6 when he had Type 5 fire truck since he got more funds that way–we both witnessed that statement and you recorded it. I know that Peeples Valley would go to Yarnell and Yarnell to Peeples Valley since that way they got paid per diem and more money in their pocket and we were told that by Anderson of the Yarnell fire board. Yet no one seems to give a damn and I think a lot of them are afraid to snitch on each other since they are all into some kind of grafting in that area.
As Gary says–send them a letter–we don’t want them committing suicide but a good FBI scrutiny of things might help straighten up the system and save lives.
Went to Bill Gabbert site off the listing of Yarnell Fire incidents. Bill gives John a good report and yet I look at the comments and see that there are still some who would defend the actions of Marsh–and leave him with no responsibility for the deaths of his crew. I hope none of the young ones have to work under WEE I mean WFF whatever that stands for. If he horahs Marsh and justifies his way of breaking all safety rules to kill his men then can you imagine that this WFF would be the next joker sending his men to hell.
Joy and I had spent 7 days immediately after the fire on cots in the Yavapai College Gym with about 200 other residents of Yarnell, Peeples Valley and nearby areas. Soon after we had seen JoAnn Dodderly of the Prescott news she was excited to get photo off Joy’s collection of some 1500 that day. I believe she suggested that the photos should be in evidence with the investigation–that we see the Fire Chief at Prescott and give them copies.
Their attitude was completely different–not needed we were told. In hindsight the community had already made up its mind how to present the fire and evidence such as what Joy had on her camera was not important. They did as we were leaving the parking lot send someone out and they said they had changed their mind and would like to see the photos and have a copy.
It is quite apparent that Mike Dudley and others involved wanted this thing presented just as they did and Willis would present before the chain link about the death sight. Too bad Phingston has taken so long to come out–but she is not the only one with pertinent information and cell phone data, etc.
If any of those people keep up with this sight and desire the true timeline and actual sequence of events be known then here is the place to present it. WTKTT and some others here have uncanny ability to extract and analyse the data for its true meaning and value to what really happened at Yarnell to cause the deaths of those young heroes. After all, in later years it should not have to be the children that come forward searching for the facts and real causes of their fathers deaths.
Joy and I had spent 7 days immediately after the fire on cots with about 200 other residents of Yarnell, Peeples Valley and nearby areas. Soon after we had seen JoAnn Dodderly of the Prescott news she was excited to get photo off Joy’s collection of some 1500 that day. I believe she suggested that the photos should be in evidence with the investigation–that we see the Fire Chief at Prescott and give them copies.
Their attitude was completely different–not needed we were told. In hindsight the community had already made up its mind how to present the fire and evidence such as what Joy had on her camera was not important. They did as we were leaving the parking lot send someone out and they said they had changed their mind and would like to see the photos and have a copy.
It is quite apparent that Mike Dudley and others involved wanted this thing presented just as they did and Willis would present before the chain link about the death sight. Too bad Phingston has taken so long to come out–but she is not the only one with pertinent information and cell phone data, etc.
If any of those people keep up with this sight and desire the true timeline and actual sequence of events be known then here is the place to present it. WTKTT and some others here have uncanny ability to extract and analyse the data for its true meaning and value to what really happened at Yarnell to cause the deaths of those young heroes.
After all, in later years, it should not have to be the children that come forward searching for the facts and real causes of their fathers deaths
sonny said:
Soon after we had seen JoAnn Dodderly of the Prescott news she was excited to get photo off Joy’s collection of some 1500 that day.
my reply:
was not that many photos because someone stole my sd card and gear and your coffee cup and odds and ends and Library books…
Poor Sonny- it is Joanna Elizabeth Dodder Nellans which public records show she worked for New London Journal in the mid 80’s and was a Newspaper Reporter 86-94 for Steamboat Pilot & Today and when you were married to Linda or Carol she worked as a Newspaper Reporter for The Ruidoso News (over by you now) in 94-97 then a Newspaper Reporter 97-15 for The Daily Courier and shows her currently freelancing as an editor and writer so maybe she can do your autobiography..She worked her butt off in the Industry…got her Bachelors in Journalism at Iowa State…and you remember her kick butt husband “Bruce Lee”…we always enjoyed seeing him because he was so full of happiness…and he worked for the Flagstaff Hotshots then became an archaeologist…In the start all was rosy in knowing them but come that December 2014 it all got weird and by January 2015 even Joanna called us when we were at the Yarnell Library asking more about you and me and our relation abusiveness and she kept on targetting you and all around the same time ill minded Shaun McKinnon wrote in the Arizona Republic what he did on us- his perception- warped. Sonny and I are real people. Sonny is a very free person…I had layers of cookie cutter because I was that way for a long bit yet I did mold back to my free way roots but just for a phase. Every action I currently do now is for the people not for self—never doing a book or movie but I will firmly not be bullied anymore…the people who feel they have the power – I have a legal team so I pretty much move it through them first then as you see FLICKR was born and to help the sensitivities of the loved ones I did it on invite only but you must email me the EMAIL YOU WANT ADDED but tell me why you want to review it because I paid for it (it was not cheap) and I want to have a roster of why someone wants to look at it- it is on an EXPIRED time table so if it expires you have to say put me on again- ALSO in doing it by invite only I make sure they know of the disclaimer and that they are not using the data for harm for me or the loved ones or anyone…or for commercial purposes. Go get your own is how I feel.
SOMEONE created an OBVIOUS division in 2014- it was seen and felt.
You would be wrong if you said Joanna Dodder was the only one or first on scene- then you did not remember our lovely Eddi Trevino and The Arizona Republic Investigative Reporter and Senior Reporter Anne Ryman- they were ON THE BALL and Anne Ryman has a heart and soul in this…you see Sonny…it will be Anne in the end who pulls this through for Truth and Light and in the right tone and you will see that we out a lot of faith into Morgan Loew even through his funky hair and glass choice styles but he did not even give the material as promised or Shaun McKinnon even to this day but Anne follows through…
copy and paste from – https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/#comment-334241
I was just coming out the front door of the Yavapai College evacuation shelter when Eddie Trevino came up to us the hikers and we the hikers were in a squabble because Dewanna had just told me that fire officials were in the Yavapai college analyzing Arizona maps on fires that had not yet happened but they were naming off Hualapai and Globe area and that happen soon after returning from evacuation…and Eddie’s high energy and spirit was so sweet and Anne Ryman too of Arizona Republic and hearing the news was like a punch to the gut and immediately it felt like these 19 were ALWAYS going to be REMEMBERED and I hold a lot of HOPE that clarity WILL BE reached- I did not hear the news that night on 6-30-13 about the homes or the firefighters because I was outside in the college parking lot with Sonny trying to encourage that togetherness indoors would be a good thing but Sonny felt like the whole deal was a prison martial law bs and wanted no part of it but Sonny helped so many peoples’ lives when he went in that evacuation building and to this day truly many come to me thanking me and Sonny for being there for them from the very start and never giving up so that they can carry on and move forward. On July 1st, 2013 the evacuation shelter surprised me with a beautiful birthday cake and such a special gathering and it was not until my birthday I learned 19 men died and watched as the desert walker that I am on tv the aerial shots and I know that terrain BETTER THAN anyone so I was watching and labelling for the people who’s home was on the aerial and to this day people are in disbelief how I knew it was THEIR home by quick shots on a tv media aerial few second shot and I was SPOT ON…it angered people that I knew it was THEIR home and they did not realize it by aerial shots so I took photos of the tv shots and we went on evacuation computers and we sat and reviewed photos/described how I knew and I held so deeply and I mean DEEP people who wept for 19 men and they lost their homes and it was sooooo deep that I am a sensitive gal but “feelings” or connecting to every day folks was way too new for me…I only knew A-listers and govt folks or just people normal every day folks don’t know or interact with and view on their boob tubes…so here I am hugging with depth strangers just to me in my desert walking mind folks on the map on who to ask for permission to walk across their land or not…I did not socially know the community like activities just my walks and talks and helping people in need…so that was way new to me and I am not a gal who hugs like that…shit I am the one who learned the photos I took were of the GMHS from Joanna Dodder of the daily courier—and I am the shit head that when on the Weavers told widows…yes widows after a very brief greet as I walked away “happy trails”…who the hell says that but the desert walker who is desensitized that these widows just had their loved ones perish—so I have not been all great in this YHF aftermath but then again I can say I have been PRESENT and GENUINE and will not abandon this journey and sure in hell hope RTS and Bob can share what they were doing when they heard the news and continue to be here and Gary you know better than that to say you wish they never came back because in reality we are a family unit and a lot of this family unit have faced loved one losses and some due to fire or tragedy or accidents so let’s embrace and respect another for WHO we are versus tearing down another.
look at our view – tell me we did not have the best view of the fire and vehicles and FFs that day-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YjyHo6bryrxTrMkc9
This is a private e mail to Joy but I think it fair to share with the community of good people that continue their quest for the truth to be revealed about the deaths of the GMHS crew and the mismanagement of the Yarnell Hill Fire from start to finish.
To Arizona Desert Walker, Mrs. Joy Collura:
I must be feeling you–Yesterday that small climb up to see that sheepherders ruin was all I could do–This morning I fed the dogs and bathed scooter–he keeps wanting to be in the house and so if I let him he only can with a good lather–but after the bath he dashed out allergic to water–so I fixed the pond this morning where they have a platform to get out toward the middlle in shallow water. Maybe that way they will take advantage when it is hot out–but wasn’t bad at 97 yesterday. Watered a few trees and now I am totally down going to have to rest yet I have things to do. Want to clear the yard after working and fixing the Nissan–that turned out to be a nice little truck–took it to town then yesterday in the hills south.
So I understand–that right shoulder is so fractured up I am still limited–when I use it I pay for it. Reason I am so depleted I think cause I loaded some RR ties on the Nissan–only about six but they are heavy and it is enough now Harbor Freight is going to get business–I will put one of those pickup cranes on to do the heavy lifting. So it was all I could do to make coffee and now get around to some hot cakes once I get my breath. Those bastards ruined us and the town of Yarnell–there is no way we and the many people we know that are sick or dead are not connected to that poison they dispersed there are Yarnell. That damn stuff has too many chemicals and that main chemical of ammonium phosphate –85-90% is the main culprit against health. It is just like this, plants can absorb and use it but it is not natural and loaded with other poisons that humans can not tolerate. Do what you can to stay away from it with your health as it is already.
I posted pretty strong hoping it might bear on some to give information–but maybe few read IM and the ones that do many are supporters of the Amanda crowd and just there to find fault. People delude themselves into believing a lie and that is the case for many that are showing hate toward IM and IM contributors–they will not contribute since they fear their delusion bubble might be burst. People get in a comfort zone (how is your comfort Marsh?) and they follow their habit–as you saw Marsh was always comfortable taking risks with GMHS lives.
There is in the universe some things we do not understand–a force that we can tap into–it comes from an inner understanding of the ability to shed our trap that we have had since the beginning of time. This body after all is bound to die–all do–and it is just a shell that we have temporary use of. There is so much more and you have seen in my own case how the spirit has been able to rule over the physical. I believe I saved your life but I know you also saved my life by that visit to the hospital and having them remove those tubes, etc and take me off life support. Bless Mark for that as well since he did the same by talking the doctors into removing me from life support after the gunshot wound. The doctors did save me as well but did not know that they were assigning me to be a live vegetable had I not been taken away from those drugs and artificial supports–it was time to come back for a while.
I think perhaps we will again meet Marsh and all the fellows that died–on that side all our foolishness is deleted and we are made whole where there is no avarice and the Lion spirit and Sheep spirit become friends with an understanding never possible or attainable in this life. But we are assigned to do our best here on earth–and that is what you and I will continue to do.
Kayiden-
I am posting the pics you wanted to see-
others have seen them
look at our view – tell me we did not have the best view of the fire and vehicles and FFs that day-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/YjyHo6bryrxTrMkc9
—
and another view point:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MKEGHDbkSggcHzF47
The one who still owes us a correction- Shaun-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ydtEfe4T6aj8tiycA
Can anyone identify this man to me:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Z5LaGPJKGmSTPgLeA
the link to Bruce Hanna’s injury Sonny mentioned:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7ZvK54oBG1QVhFoK9
in evacuation I got to lear who kidnapped my cat:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ySrZoEgnwLAD2ZWL6
you tell me Sonny- what happened…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MnNBV5qX7TLEGwqn8
why the change of heart you wonder
the kids always remembered us…https://photos.app.goo.gl/CAN74CfhUCvu9nGv5
in this photo:
can you identify the spot where Holly Neill speaks about her stobs:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/8e2Z4eKmudeeYXcU6
I want you to look at that chimney and chute view to Sesame to the Shrine in my photo.
even if my camera was broke my tracfone had the actual time after I left the GMHS and went pee and the view- see:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/V6BzbHXrhvE1jYfg8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZvU6aiWZHtM59hw69
and this is the timeframe I TOOK THE MYSTERY MAN PHOTO not what IM Fie20+ spewed out with even wrong camera metadata- what gives?
quite a few of you got one of these that we made in the desert-
we did it because we care so WHY the discord now just because we discussed you in a tone you did not approve of- every thing is fixable-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jWA9uvGPDq9yg5XFA
The alien bar you just mentioned recently Sonny:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7gykkjuKQHj2B8kLA
One of the mines you just mentioned Sonny:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bdaCJoCmokf14E6v7
I miss Dave Larsen…Pete Masiel and Charlie Moseley
https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZHA5R4i58285uip69
From the beginning we were there Sonny for the people and we still are:
https://photos.app.goo.gl/p7PTU5igS3peALbr9
The First person to go the hikers way – CBS nvestigator Morgan Loew and Patrick which later became the Granite Mountain Memorial Trail- you just cannot make that up
They have the video
Area of Mystery Man-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Qh7SL3ytnatNCF9m9
when you say Mother Fucker Gary- My First Image comes to my mind will be my bond with my animals- I miss them so bad-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/MaBzcAoHVuHdSYo89
you have not LIVED unless you had a cowboy adventure with Sonny
even a Senator who met us out in the Big Burro Mountains is smiling on that one-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/bZX48U4wqG7GaizHA
One of our favorite hikes was the very first person who went to Congress and asked Ronda Carnes where are the hikers Sonny and Joy that he called Joanna Dodder Nellans about-
https://photos.app.goo.gl/9Sf2VEcsHMHXqqBR8 Brian Mockenhaupt (Atlantic Magazine)
I could be out making us a rattler Sonny and you could be catching a rabbit for the dogs…but here we are…
You would be wrong if you said Joanna Dodder was the only one or first on scene- then you did not remember our lovely Eddi trevino and The Arizona Republic Investigative Reporter and Senior Reporter Anne Ryman
What Sonny and I did learn over time is that we were outnumbered—more people wanted to believe in something not factual and listen to anothers lies on us but both Sonny and I have the most forgiving Spirits that all are welcome…
As the eyewitnesses we could have yielded or fleed when people shut us off in 2014…all the while we stayed the high ground even when people used media and social media to spread untruths…
all the while they say we are the deceivers…I don’t know I think the eyewitness fall in the category of showing more documents than the very people spewing we are the vile ones yet we show proof as time unfolds…
I really had to ensure I crossed all my t’s and dotted the i’s because this sucka is too layered up…
we held our own when those people said false stuff.
Sonny is much a warrior as much as he is a thinker and doer…we both have faced adversities in our lifetime most would crumble the first time around..we keep going…
It’s an old cliche, but it’s true: “The best things in life are free.” You cannot buy good health, love, insight, wisdom, or even a fresh breeze. True, you can buy food that will make you healthier, opportunities to meet people, books that will improve your mind, and a vacation during which you can enjoy that fresh breeze—and you should do all these things. But don’t ruin these simpler pleasures even as you desperately pursue them!…
back to the docs tomorrow, Sonny
I look “pregnant”…
the fluid retention is off the charts
Figuring out names to give it…
darn kidneys…the bucco and guna-diur and guna-lympho are not cutting it- have to break down for the pharmaceutical world 🙁 and get this stopped.
My husband said hopefully not a repeat of 20 years ago or even 10 years—seems like a decade thing it screws with me—hopefully not another shake it til; it breaks kidney stone- remember the yells of that night Sonny—oh the pain…I had not paid in HOW LONG….its the pressure that sucks…like over night stretched out skin so BELIEVE YOU ME I am relieved I am not out at any functions today…
I took a break for Kayiden…now back to my hunt…
paid is peed
The only free lancing she would do for me would be sticking one in me. Ha, I have not followed her line but you did give her that famous photo of the men after they passed us walking up toward heaven–and I did not know she had all that experience. Well she wrote well for the GMHS crew and went along with the Willis idea–but in that area you would have too if you wanted to keep your job or even live in the vicinity. You do not hear from anyone living right there in the Prescott area–and you do not need much imagination to know why. IM has been declared a non participation area long ago by the cronies of the area.
https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fblog.serenataflowers.com%2Fpollennation%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2015%2F06%2Ffunny-fathers-day-messags.png&imgrefurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.serenataflowers.com%2Fpollennation%2Ffathers-day-message-to-husband%2F&docid=H8we9rYipGESeM&tbnid=qe5vzUtPEQqdZM%3A&vet=12ahUKEwj4jPaP6e7iAhUFDHwKHQ2vCEo4ZBAzKAMwA3oECAEQBA..i&w=900&h=900&bih=686&biw=1396&q=happy%20fathers%20day%20firefighter%20humor&ved=2ahUKEwj4jPaP6e7iAhUFDHwKHQ2vCEo4ZBAzKAMwA3oECAEQBA&iact=mrc&uact=8
Happy Father’s Day!
Thanks Joy- It is wonderful day to receive that. After the death of Ted I still have two sons and a daughter–I call her Clementine but her name is Melissa. She is not a coal miner’s daughter but he Dad is the real thin when it comes to underground miners. And he is not one to hold back facts or play the Yarnell games we saw at the investigation of the dead 19 wild land fire fighters,
I did today visit Jay and Undene Tyndyll , people I have known since the early 80’s and just after I had survived a Uranium mine cave in and was walking around with one arm in a sling.. We had a good visit– they are both above 90 in years and so it was imperceptive I made this visit–well I had not seen them and something said for me to visit. They are both pert and in good spirit–my visits always brings smiles and even laughs. Life on the thin side is always interesting.
On the way back I took the desert roads to test the Nissan –works great and went thought some mud that had me stuck until I put it in 4 low. Desert mud is like grease and slicker than shit but this Nissan plowed through saving me a 13 mile hike. I was right near where I died of a 12 gunge shot gun wound and still amazed that I might have survived–It is about five miles of rough dirt road to just get to where you can cross the RR track and then another 20 or so to I-10 and another 10 miles into Las Cruces so I have no idea after loosing 6 units of blood how I am able to write anything to anyone.
Anyhow one rabbit took a 223 round and came home. I was going to cook him but the boys –well three of them got their teeth sunk into that rabbit body and with my best effort they won–saved me cooking that rabbit and they had no problem chomping it apart and what a sight–I could not blame them since the best dog food I feed them I would not eat myself. It smells chemical–and no wonder dogs despite the lies presented on TV–avoid that shit as best they can.
The real world is always so far from the TV takes. And in real life, the FS guys and retardant dispensers have no concern of what they do. They give a shit less that a third of folks at Yarnell are dead after their slurry applications and I suspect that they would cheer had I passed from six heart attacks and 9 serious cancer tumor removals after their generous retardant applications about Yarnell. Their concern is to look good after the fire and when will their G level advance.
Maybe I understand–I put a lot of time in dangerous work–but in those days I thought the job was well suited to my demeanor.
Yet today I am aghast that I am a simple citizen who was able to escape a fire while 19 young souls cannot have my happy Father’s Day enjoyment. Someone with nit wit abilities had to kill them. Sad but True and how do you wish dead fathers a happy father’s day., My sadness is felt for those who did loose their loved ones –may you get some recompense.
word was imperative I visit impeceptive? is that a word
I don’t think so, but imperceptive is.
This was part of an email to Joy. I hope she keeps a simple description of the deaths and illness ocurring at Yarnell. Most of what I have seen came on to these people in a sudden fashion as did my heart attack and breathing problems within a few months after the fire. I think there will be a common thread among the illness and deaths and somehow that will have a link to the massive retardant dispersion after the two wild fires of 2013 and 2015. It is no disrespect to those young heroes and indeed they deserve the titles having followed orders down to the letter of their commanders–yet the many deaths at Yarnell amounting to about 200 now is beyond reason considering that there were only 645 residents living there. Of course they were not heroes in the sense they were risking their lives fighting a wild fire. But their lives count and if statistics mean anything then it should be investigated to the fullest as to the connection to the enormous amount of retardant that was dispersed about the town of Yarnell.
I believe the pretty orange retardant to be as deadly to humans as fly spray is to flies. You only need to make a cursory study of the chemicals involved–none are safe according to the study and long term studies are non existent. Of great concern are the hidden chemicals and if 10% is the average where between 5% and 15% hidden chemicals within the slurry then you are talking about 50,000 gallons of these chemicals just on the first drop of slurry at Yarnell. That is plenty of chemical that the companies are hiding under trade secret laws. How atrocious it is that they can get away with dumping hidden chemicals on people in that amount.
When I was in Yarnell I would do odd jobs here and there for people–I did not need the money but some people are not handy or knowledgeable to do certain things they need done. So I had been helping one man by planting trees and setting up a sprinkler system but when he came to wanting me to spray chemical poisons for plant protection, etc., I refused. You can see the effects round up is having on people. The effects are real yet many are willing to forgo the dangers. I do have a garden but I prefer the natural and safe means of killing bugs.
But of course in my age and term left in life you would wonder why I would bother. Well if you look at the sudden deaths at Yarnell after the retardant drops then you can imagine that something is there to shorten life in a hurry.
So here was the email to Joy:
Too bad about Grant–he looked to have a lot of life in him. I wonder how Teresa and Raul are doing–that was a sad case indeed since we had known them and how positive she always was and how well Raul looked even several months after the fie. They both went down hill so suddenly–but that was the way it was with me and I think if you look at all the histories you will see a similarity–People suddenly come down ill. I appreciate you sending me the news about the people of Yarnell–would like to keep tabs and a short story of the time, type of lllnes and something about the illness or death. I think a lot of people are ill now but you don’t hear much about that–only after they die is there any notice and everyone seems to want to put it down to natural causes.
One thing I have so far seen in the many deaths and sudden illnesses at Yarnell were they were either lung related, heart attacks or cancers. There is no bacteria or virus related deaths since the fire that I am aware of–perhaps Joy can correct me. I do know that the chemicals involved are connected to lung issues and it follows that a body deprived of sufficient oxygen will cause the onset of all sorts of malaises, especially heart failure and cancer.
I am not one to put much faith in the EPA. I see they are another political ploy much like how we saw the operations and investigations after the Yarnell Fire and deaths of the GMHS crews. Billion Dollar industries are very much in the political realm and their influence is spread well among the politicos. So, as often is the case, it remains to the private sector to assess and expose the truth in these matters.
I bid you all good health, fine attitudes and happiness or at least contentment in this world of calamity and confusion.
Pancreatic and Lung cancer and heart attacks were and still are the top 3 concerns to that area-
Sonny- not 2015- The Tenderfoot fire was first reported on June 8th nearing Yarnell and threatened several homes along Crest Way which came to within 200 feet of the fire’s perimeter. I got the records and some day will go in depth on that area but rancher S. Grantham was in the reports and he was with his grandson in Buckeye- weird but more will come some day but yeah not 2015
2015 should be a blur for you for as many heart attacks you had and how morphined they had you and how the Irish side of you hated I took you off the morphine slowly versus how they were controlling you…
Yes they had me strapped to the bed because I was getting the hell out of dodge after the surgery. I think paranoia from the drugs had me afraid that one of the nurses there that did not particularly like me was going to dose me with something fatal. I like life too much to take a chance and read people well enough to have had some justification for my thinking.
But this is not about me. It is about or friends and neighbors who have died by scores after the fire. We had seen these people, conversed and socialized among them and knew their health situation. Just talking of Grant, Teresa and Raul, they were fit and positive individuals for years we had known them. Then just as many others you can name starting from Zack to Kevin, you saw how well they were going on in life. I should be acknowledging the deaths of perhaps 30 people from that area due to natural causes after 6 years since 2013. Instead I have a death count of 200+ and an illness count that Joy knows better than I–but it is highly elevated.
Certainly had there been a virus outbreak, the plague or food poisoning from the local restaurant where the locals socialize, then we might have some logical explanation–yet not of that occurred I doubt that there was on death after the fire caused by bacteria or even snake bite. I think the retardant got rid of all the bacteria and snakes as well.
So did the government test the retardant at Yarnell concerning health? Whether it was intentional or not, that test is now there and with my best judgement it proves the retardant to be a deadly substance.
Most of us are not idiots poking our heads into the sand hill–we are aware–survival concerns not only the fittest but the wisdom to see things as they are. A simple fit person might easily take in the poisons presented and be compromised in health to the point of death. We have witnessed it in Yarnell–extremely wrong what has happened there..
To make a point, the average death rate between 2003 and 2008 amounted to about 8 people per 1000. Considering that Yarnell had 645 residents–do the math .645×8= about 5 people a year should be what would be a normal or average death toll for Yarnell. Instead we are looking at a death toll of about 33 people per year. Yarnell’s deaths are above 6 times the rate they should be. If that does not give people reason to take notice then poke your head back into your turtle shell.
Joy–do you or someone you know have available or can find how many died every year before the fire going back say six years? If you can find that count and it equals or exceeds the 33 per year death count after the 2013 fire then I will eat my hat and maybe even sprinkle it with retardant.
The communities Sonny- 1/3 have passed and I cannot accurately give the numbers of who is alive and with health problems or disease but too many…
Sonny- as long as you move each day
it’s all gravy
it is what it is with our healths
to each its own
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jxvKZFxzsDc
Dance…oops…this is up your alley more:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-XCvfy6Huyc
That death count I was asking for refers to Yarnell obviously.
In my case very much so–with all good intentions I continue to live–sometimes I wonder the purpose–well we hope we make some good efforts that will benefit others and have some small part in making the Yarnell truth known and available to all–especially where it will benefit others and even save lives.
Understandably the world is becoming more and more polluted as world population skyrockets. Whether mankind kills itself off by these sky rockets and A bombs or ends up making the world inhabitable in the mean time is up in the air. And as you say, we are fortunate to continue on as people living on borrowed time.
I like a bit of Al Green sometimes. But good old country music, Cajun, or Irish are in good taste.
uninhabitable I meant to say–not much chance people will start to make it more inhabitable
Joy–keep feeding me the names of people you know have died and their causes–best here on IM since this will be a record and archived for future reference.
You say a third have died at Yarnell but I know the incidence of cancer, heart failuer, and lung issues are out of hand there. I do wonder if it were a planned experiment at Yarnell as extreme as that might be. There has been some ongoing controversy about the effects of retardant on human health. Yarnell has obviously given some good answers.
If you think it is beyond certain government agencies to do experiments on people visit the documented CIA mind control experiments and here is a copy section I took about the plutonium experiments
on unknowing people:feeding radioactive material to mentally disabled children[4]
enlisting doctors to administer radioactive iron to impoverished pregnant women
exposing U.S. soldiers and prisoners to high levels of radiation[4]
irradiating the testicles of prisoners, which caused severe birth defects[4]
exhuming bodies from graveyards to test them for radiation (without the consent of the families of the deceased)[
These are actual documented experiments carried out by our government and medical doctors, etc. under official auspices.
There are about 200 tons of plutonium 239 present in Russia and the US, not to mention the rest of Nuclear nations such as Israel, China, North Korea, India, Pakistan, and it goes on. Plutonium 238 is that used to power satellites with a half life of 88 years meaining it takes 88 years for half of it to be depleated and 88 more years to deplete the half that is left and so on. Plutonium 239 that is used in making bombs is highly fissile and its half life contamination lasts 24,100 years. So its contamination may as well be considered forever in human terms. As I have said before plutonium is known as the most deadly poison on earth–the small pellets that were used to kill the Russians in England were an isotope of plutonium–210 and we know that was almost an instant kill with those people already debilitated on a park bench foaming at the mouth as if they had been bitten by a rabid dog. But all plutonium is deadly in any form. Yet you can see the 239 was dispersed freely just to see what it would do to unaware humans.
Coming to the Agent Orange look alike ammonium phosphates and nitrates loaded with a litany of other chemicals we get to have a full view of its effects on unaware humans at Yarnell and surrounding villages. Although you are seeing more than a third of the population devastated by death and disease there is little concern. I dare say Uranium and Radiation are on a lesser scale of immediate maladies than the retardant. All that we see in Yarnell has been within only 6 years of the first drop and 3 years of the second dispersion of the chemical retardants.
Have these retardant dispersions proven anything about the effects on human health? Whether intentional or not, I should hope someone takes notice. No one in good conscience that has any clout at all should let this slide. Two hundred dead ones cry out loudly and the many sick ones are either unaware they have been guinea pigs or else to ill or afraid to complain.
So you see the importance of Joy’s input on this. Joy knows all the people that have deceased and the many that are ill. I am not well acquainted with but a few there and most of those are already dead or in the condition of throat or pancreatic cancer or like Teresa and Rual victims of stroke and lung issues.
In my way of thinking it is an even greater tragedy than the Marsh killing of the 19.
Trying to think of the retired helicopter man that came down with prostate cancer only a few months –He ran things pretty much at the town meetings after the fire–Chuck ? Joy help me on that one–He was a very likeable person and looked up to in the community as a leader there. I wondered if he is still alive?
And just for the record, I am not advocating that agencies require all WLF to wear a respirator like I did back in the day, all of the time. But what I am suggesting, is that I believe there is something that would work for most of the people, most of the time and be far better than nothing or a bandanna.
I recognize that WLF fill a unique role that ranges from working in subdivisions that are engulfed by wildfires to the tops of mountains or the bottoms of canyons that are engulfed by very similar wildfires in similar conditions where those WLF are subjected to toxic woodsmoke, even if it is nothing more than woodsmoke.
In other words, I think it is possible for all of the smart, experienced and engaged people who are out there to get together with private industry and the Missoula EQUIPMENT DEVELOPMENT Center and find something, or many different somethings that can fill the current void by finding a compromise between doing everything and where we as an industry are at right now…doing nothing, at least that I am aware of. I don’t have any answers, but I do have a lot of questions.
I have another video I recorded by accident a few months ago when I hit the record button instead of the stop button that I am going to post as a further cautionary tale in addition to my full blown COPD video I shot the other day as an after thought, but I am glad I did. I don’t know about you, but I was SHOCKED at how bad I have gotten and I knew I had gotten pretty bad or I wouldn’t be lining up some more doctors working through OWCP.
But I think I might be fucked. I still wouldn’t change anything however, because I got to see the elephant. But apparently it came at a steep price that I pray others don’t have to pay…like it sounds like The Woodsman is. There have to be lots of other current and former WLF out there as well who are currently having problems or will soon enough. So…heads up.
And OMGosh, Joy has informed me there was a video that showed the big hole in Sonny that I missed, so if she sends it to me, I will embed it in my website with some current photos I hope to get of his scar as a cautionary tale to not go hunting with Charlie sitting in the back seat behind you. Or maybe anywhere around you? I still think the police should have conducted a forensic analysis of Sonny’s computer to see just what Charlie may have been searching for.
https://m.wikihow.com/Shoot-a-Gun-Accurately
Oh…and one more thing. I was trying to find out if anyone was still following my Smokey The Bear story be describing a scene from one of my favorite movies. But apparently I had lost everyone’s interest by then.
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-478938
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Lit-x30bTow
“Charlie didn’t get much USO. He was dug in too deep or moving too fast. His idea of great R&R was cold rice and a little rat meat. He had only two ways home: death, or victory.”
Gary,
Hopefully, you’ll be okay after learning this news about his real name being Smokey Bear without a middle name.
( https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2018/08/15/was-smokey-bear-wrong-how-a-beloved-character-may-have-helped-fuel-catastrophic-fires/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.cdf5740e2d07 )
I know … I know, it’s probably gonna be like when you learned their was no Easter Bunny. Whoops, Bad analogy because you still believe in the Easter Bunny and did your whole career as a HS crew Boss when you berated your men about it being Easter and all.
So then, how about when you learned there was no Santa Claus?
So…there never was a Smokey The Bear? Well…I guess that makes sense.
And I know there has been a lot of water under the bridge, but I didn’t come up with that saying. It was actually an ole buddy who had been on my crews for years, both Happy Jack and Santa Fe.
Anyway…that was the anolgy he came up with during a conversation over breakfast because that’s how he thought it should be.
I do know that was how I thought it should be when I was a crewmember, squad boss and crew boss since I always considered myself just another cog, or a spring or a wheel or any other part you would care to name that fits into this anolgy that made me part of a very expensive, highly developed and very efficient wildland firefighting machine and not an individual WLF.
You know…those wild land firefighting machines that became even more advanced, professional, modernized and standardized thanks to so many great American heroes like you, who took our profession from the Wild Wild West run and gun culture where we shot from the hip as we rode hard for the brand to where they are today.
But…I am afraid we are just going to have to agree to disagree about a couple of things though after so many years. And those are what we both know as the Easter Egg Concept of hotshot crew management and the importance of the individual in contrast to the importance of the crew.
But…I think there is room for variation in how hotshot crews are managed and I like to think you and I are a paradox and not a contradiction.
Plus…I’m feeling warm and fuzzy tonight and I refuse to let you fuck with my head just because you might be bored and looking for a fight. Namaste…🙏🏻
And what pray tell…are you referring to about there not being any Santa Claus?
In other words, since you and I have opposite and therefore contradictory positions on how to best manage a hotshot crew, one of us must be wrong if the other one is right….right?
But since I think we are a paradox rather than contradiction, both us can be right even though we have opposing positions and beliefs…right?
Although I think the only problem with that anology, is that it is theoretically possible for both of us to be wrong even though we hold opposite positions on how to best manage a crew? 🤔
But…we won’t worry about that right now. Let’s just focus on the positive…okay? Because that would only come into play only if there is a former or current hotshot crew boss out there who contradicts both of us while believing they are right…right?
But hey…what are the odds of us both being wrong while another former or current hotshot crew boss is right? That just isn’t possible…is it?
I mean, we are both bonafide hotshot crew boss legends in our own minds…right?
Together, we form a necessary paradox; not a senseless contradiction.”
Criss Jami
And I have now coined a new name for the whole Crew Boss declaring its Easter even when it’s not really Easter.
I am going to call that phenomenon, the “Easter Egg Hunt Paradox.”
Or maybe, “The Hotshot Crew Boss Easter Egg Hunt Paradox.”
In general, trying to grasp the true meaning of most paradoxs really makes my head hurt.
Plus…as a hotshot, I learned to celebrate the whole and not the parts. And like the philosopher Aristotle, I always found the true strength of the hotshot crews that I was fortunate enough to work on was synergy because the whole was greater than the sum of its parts. And that by working as a T.E.A.M.,Together Everyone Achieved More.
The one ☝🏻thing I always valued the most as both a hotshot crew member and a crew boss, was our quotient of crew cohesiveness because that was the single biggest factor in determining whether we succeeded together or failed separately.
Now…what about this Santa Claus thing, surely you aren’t suggesting…
No, I’m not even going to go there…Shirley.
RTS,
What has life managed to do to you my old friend? What can I do to help? How did we manage to switch roles during the last 40 years or so? What happened to the Oddball we all used to know and love? What can I do to help you bring him back?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=f5cL-h3Pj1o
WOOF…WOOF…WOOF. That’s my other dog imitation because I’m definitely not going back to being Big Joe. Life is too short.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=jQM9JSux3Ew
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=kgeIINs1TrQ
I mean…you have got to love Oddball…am I right?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Xd5i6hzuLmU&t=7s
Up Yours Baby! Kilroy was here.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-IatwoA00E0
Gary said – What has life managed to do to you my old friend?
My reply- Haven’t you listened to RTS on IM????
There are what he names “Quislings” in the Fire Industry that he once named a true friend.
In my public records it is obvious since July 2013 behind the scenes people were warning others that RTS was “interested” in learning why 19 men died and to watch out for him because he will get to the truth-
Remember, how Jeff Whitney spoke about you Gary when 1 loved one of the GMHS did not want yours or RTS presence…the orchestration of others…
Classic
When I get to those records – I will share them to RTS and maybe we can share them to the world so you as the Fire Industry can see how it works –
You put decades of passion into your field and watch so many areas your eyes should never see and I say this because there is ICs out there that need to know that because this may be you. some day…
they may be appeasing you now and you may be helping some from the Yarnell Hill Fire with your Position Power yet in a blink of an eye – it can change.
In my times going to conferences and training and I am around him – I truly have learned he has a beautiful family and very sweet what do you call them nowadays lady friends who can help him gain the Senior Discount so he does not have to ask for one himself. That isi pretty cool. Something Sonny would never do – he always draws in youth.
Could be as you age men choose women their age because their egos want the Senior Discount but they just do not want to be the one to ask for it,
Otis Thompson from UK should chime in and explain in his side of the world if it is done differently… ???
If you think Sonny is not so beautiful Gary – (you have not seen his soul) … reminder if I find the pics of his exes – they are not ugly – or go to that recent link I posted on him – and as he aged the cancer beat the shit out of him badly and the heart attacks and getting shot by your dog but go to that link –
do you think he has changed over the years due to the cancers? or from the times of knowing all his exes?
You said I was the bride of Satan but really when Sonny and I trailed…we were the oddest pair…we joked to some…yet I then could of been the label “Bride of Frankenstein” eh with his facial scars…life is way too short to concern what others takes are on ya…both Sonny and I agree there
I know for Sonny he always drew in younger pretty professionals and usually Nurses or PhD ladies and they really enjoy his company … Sonny was always good to every lady he ever had (some areas he had to him which is who he is – Mining, logging, etc and some ladies just do not GET THAT lifestyle just like some sign up to be with Peace Officers and Firefighters and do not GET the Industry-)
and yet when he could use the company and help of a lady who gave a shit about him while he is putting up extremely heavy poles that usually takes an army of young men but he himself has and is doing it himself You will never meet a person who contains so much knowledge on how to walk in ANY elevation and terrain and just live…he truly showed me that path and I forever am grateful for that knowledge.
Age is just a number…
I tend to enjoy immensely being in the company of the golden generation and that generation is about gone…I still have my Lois who simply does not remember me ( 🙁 ) and my Miss Sue (all late 90’s and into the 100s) and Dan…
Men are attracted to either the young… the chase …the maturity and nostalgia of someone they knew back in high school or college…the professionals keeping in line with staying with professionals versus what God leads…some men are set in their ways and do not want to compromise so they end up in dysfunctional relations…the good part of having someone your own age is not that discount, Gary – she will unlikely outlive you like a younger one…and less clingy to your space and time…and if you reconnect to one who has their own digs and monies even better than no having to pocket out funds just some historical good times… as our bodies change we either get “who cares” or self-conscious and it depends on the chemistry attraction how we interact.
Women your age is probably better for the psychological factor.
I knew a police officer who was married with 2 children (boy and girl) and he was married to a School Principal…sounds like a pretty bow and white picket fence should be added eh…but unfortunately he began a dysfunctional relations and allowing the emotions of this other women override where his focus should have been and that was those kids and that Principal Wife
and now he loves to travel and do sport activities and keep busy and mentoring kids but in his own space when he goes to Frys’s grocery store for honey-dos – he finds himself losing himself into the dynamics of another and their agendas and truly they should be focused on themselves and those kids because they need to heal first as a family being broken before taking all of the dynasty on….
but to each their own – if things seem “off” than get the necessary guidance from God. or keep being off
it is your life that goes before God
We all come into the world in different ways and lifestyles…different cultural interest…different hobbies…mutual friends…
We all should challenge and encourage another-
but for truth not lies.
I never give out advice with relationships because if my own family and my own group who know me and myself do not get how I roll than how am I to expect the world to get it- I just follow His lead…and let others do their own lives
Not spew off hatred
and when you speak of the widow and she has leaked her energy of you on me at the Academy 2018 – I was like ??? — I felt she was using your name and RTS yet genuinely feeling that way with me and I am all good…I have no control on the words you type or speak and I own what I do and again if people really give a shit for the people
Grant who Sonny talked about last night…rumor is he took his own life and for an extended time laid dead…the same Grant who told us as he was on the roof in photo here and watched the Firefighters setting fires just like Mark Danielsen and Mr. Wasson and so many others…people that did those actions need to own up and speak up…Grant drank alot of homemade Apricot Wine June 30 2013 and yelled at the fire and he was intense and some found him to be comical like Texaco owner who watched him yell at the fire.
Grant was MAD that they burned burned burned in the reckless manner they did but he stayed behind and watched those dozers go all over after the fire went thru cutting lines and changing things about..creating the plot line as he called it.
He never got over the Yarnell Hill Fire and his head pain began to be chronic hoping the Firefighters and YCSO folks would finally speak out…too late for he is no longer here. I wish he was here to see the Summer events.
Sonny, Grant had rooftop view of actions at the Shrine- he was not at the Shrine- See:
this is June 30 2013 late afternoon
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1eADlNTesl6R0GdMufzAiX6n-SvyxBeJx/view?usp=sharing
I want people to know I have become very advanced in my archival satellite training and the reason I said enough time has passed and people should start talking because the more I do my training – the more advanced I get and then the more of these pics are rolling out…
Grant was next door to the Texaco gas station on Highway 89 across and near Shrine Rd and near the now Yarnell Fire Dept Administration building…he had the best view from that mountain top.
That is Errol Eastwood at his truck in the photo and the one on the roof cursing the Firefighters and the fire is recently deceased Grant.
Stephen G. wants some data to take to DC – I get that 100% but the people and their mental health are my priority=
who’s mental health should be priority? Some of the GMHS loved ones always and forever locked and sealed or the people who still have their accounts to be told? I wish it could be both without lies and harms of others…it is sad…or dividing as I have seen
Rocksteady should chime in too…maybe its different too in Canada?
Wait…what?
And no…I said all of the flames from the maw of HELL made you look like you were the Bride Of Satan, because you know…all of the flames from the maw of Hell surrounding your FACE!
Now that is a word not very many people get to use during an average day…MAW.
And I don’t really think Senior Citizen discounts are all that important. I think it’s about 5 cents for the movie.🎥
Do you deliberately try to confuse me?
Gary said:
Do you deliberately try to confuse me?
I say-
No, Gary, it just comes natural to me 🙂
I know, I know, I know, I know that is a lot to respond to. I know, or at least I suspect how hard it has been on Fred and just how many low life motherfuckers there are out there in WLF management and most of all what a bunch of chicken shit mother fuckers they are.
I know how many low life chicken shit mother fuckers who were in Legarza’s Possse who talked shit to me on the phone, but when I stood up during that banquet in Grand Junction in the middle of 150 WLF including Legarza’s low life chicken shit mother fucking ex hotshot crew bosses and told them exactly who I was and what I didn’t like about them, nobody said a fucking word to me then.
And then I walked around the room looking at them and then later at the bar, and none of those low life chicken shit mother fuckers would even lock eyes with me.
Hardy laughed and said he had spent years jumping in Arizona and New Mexico and he asked about me everywhere he went. Hardy said everyone knew me and told him about me. I said, oh yeah, and what did they say about me, Hardy said, “They always said you were the wrong guy to fuck with, even the people who only knew you by your reputation.”
But Fred has been fucking with them for years and they have been slapping him just like the low life chicken shit mother fuckers they all are.
I just don’t think people get it. Before Fred and others like him, it’s not that we had low standards as hotshots. We had no standards and there was usually very little between those crews and some really bad things happening as that stupid low life chicken shit mother fucker Eric Marsh and his stupid low life bitch of a wife proved and continue to prove every time she opens her stupid fuckin mouth to spew garbage out of her fuckin pie hole.
I’m pretty much available anytime if anyone wants to discuss it with me in person on the Yavapsi County Courthouse steps. Name the time and date and I will be there.
I don’t know everything Fred has been through, but I only have one thing to say back, “Fuck you, he is the longest serving United States Forest Service Hotshot Crew Boss in history.” And I know what it took to earn that title.
I know he isn’t Oddball and neither am I, but in my case it is definitely an aspirational goal. I was just trying to be light hearted and supportive in my own way in what is a really nasty fight with some really low life chicken shit mother fuckers.
And no…neither Sonny or I are beautiful, we are both bad to the bone ugly and that is just how we like it. Now quit fuckin’ pickin’ on me every time I write something because I have very low self esteem and I react poorly to criticism.
And I can’t wait until Maclean publishes his book backed up by that know nothing, having done NOTHING NEIL as a cartoon quality researcher, what a fuckin joke!
I am going to devout my spare time for the rest of my life rippin Maclean a new asshole over every line and every word he gets wrong.
Does he know who I am? Where I have been, the things I have done and the elephants I have seen? He had better figure it out before going all the way to becoming a full time apologist for THE BIGGEST FUCK UP IN WILD LAND FIREFIGHTING HISTORY.
Like peopke always told Hardy, I’m the wrong guy to fuck with. Although I may need some data input from HAL 9000, because sometimes, it takes me a little while to get it right. But they didn’t call me the Jackhammer for nothing. I earned that title.
“The audience, hesitantly at first but like dominoes in reverse, starts to stand. The clapping began slowly and eventually they were all on their feet clapping and cheering vigorously. It was like each one had their cathartic moment together while contacting the “back of the bus” innocence deep within their collective conscience where the seeds were planting so long ago for them to differentiate between right and wrong. This was the fond world of yesteryear. The simple times where up was actually up and not down. The words from the big man gave them hope.”
Yeah…don’t bully our friend! Only we get to bully our friend.
If you want to bully him, you have to come through…by Hephaestus!
Today…every man and woman has a voice and a platform to do the right thing if they so choose.
AND TODAY….WE CHOOSE TO STAND AND FIGHT FOR RTS!
“The crowd goes wild with cheers of support….Fade to Black”
As the narrator drones on, don’t fuck with Joy either, only we get to pick on Joy because you know…she’s kinda quirky. But we have a big tent here at IM, and we love quirky!
Oh fuck me…fire the proof reader!
If you want to bully him, you have to come through US…by Hephaestus!
Okay…this one doesn’t apply to the situation, but the theory of “Deductive Reasoning” applies in general to our blog….does it not?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9PY_3E3h2c
D O N ‘T F U C K W I T H R T S!
We have his back in this & we’re NOT going away. You’ll find out soon that it would’ve been way, way, WAY easier to tell the truth. This is on YOU, not us. Sleep in your bed you made.
Woodsman-
perfectly stated.
I am going to keep writing my posts.
I just had 1 post that was about to POST just vanish and most would walk away
I just re-add the data and smile.
No way is Satan gonna win…
No way.
Joy,
I sent you a message. I’d like to be in the loop on the latest data dump. It’s important. Thanks!
You have to learn Gary Speak. That’s important too.
Tell RTS that I may not agree with every position he has but I agree with most. Stay strong. The truth will prevail. Lives will be saved so help me God. It’s important.
Crap Woodsman
can you go to 480 559 1971 which is no text and voice mail only and or just email me or if you go to my blog you do not have to give me email or number on a call – there is FREE LIVE CHAT anonymous there where I gain the most fire data-
I did not receive a message anywhere
just looked
Ok, Joy. I just tried it on chat. Alias = Keyboard Commando
I was away from the pc
did your email get my reply?
You are just a number to the system-
Joy,
I’ve sent chat messages to your blog. I’ve called you and left a voicemail. I’m trying to follow your rules so that I may have access to your information but to no avail. I’d like to know just what hoops I need to jump through in order to get your invite to the information you have offered. Not sure what else I need to do…?
And really…the whole shtick about the senior citizen discounts was just a shtick. Why do you take so much of what I write most of the time so serious,
Of course the real question should be, “Why do I take what you write about what I write so serious.
Gary, schtick eh…
Believe you me with your mother f’ers and chicken shits I DO NOT take you serious yet you always give key points as a take away but at times a deeply harsh manner almost borderline as I see it a pure attack on someone
and you get away with it
but I make a question who is in charge where I walk on here and I get the court room so yeah you must be someone and I must be noone…..glad I have lawyers nowadays so that cannot be a repeated moment in the same fashion…
Remember I mentioned my father’s friend yesterday – some Spanish man who was married to a principal with 2 kids (boy and a girl) …
I think I caught a nerve with my Dad’s friend…
Hey we are all guilty of some odd discretion along the way of our lives from time to time…my take away was not bringing him to the light to air flaws but to show we need to banish behaviors and poor habits that effect the people around you …and replace them with efficient and effective ones or better yet…instead…replace it with accountable practice with purpose …
Alot of people refuse to change maybe because they do not want that risk of failure…or being alone.
Recently I am being thrown in and denied access to an event tied to someone else’s purchase and I thought and read the REASONS and to me those are really fabrications and that being critical part well I would call it “calling out” leadership behaviors or lack of and is needed to be done…especially when so many lives are no longer here. – fore true lessons learned –
I sure hope the individual (or member board group) who took the time to cancel me from attending takes to heart…The ADOSH report was also ( publicly ) ‘critical’ of the Granite Mountain Hotshots and their decision making on June 30, 2013.
Would that mean anyone who works for the Arizona Division of Occupational Health and Safety (ADOSH) is also NOT allowed to contribute to this Arizona-based 5013C non-profit… or attend any of their publicly-published ‘events’?
I also noted like another WHO was on the “Board of Directors” and it would be interesting was this a board decision or one specific person on that board?
There is a time to be respectful to our leaders yet there is also a time to question practices and fact check if your leader is being led or is truly a leader and he earned his way there not fabrications on resumes and applications.
Take the time out and figure out why someone is creating the lies. What I was just refused and cancelled out is not surprising yet it is not right either. It is controlling their atmosphere and yet in one social media message it shows they welcome everyone so I guess there is an odd definition of the word everyone…does not include one of the Yarnell Hill Fire eyewitness but I will try and purchase a ticket being the denial is addressed to someone else not me- I was just a guest named –
More should speak up and forge their own paths versus going along to get along…
RTS will say the best leaders are the ones who are challenged…as they challenge you right back…right RTS?
Anyways Gary- my dad’s pal the officer – I was glad he left that lady (the principal) – I nick-named her “Cricket” – she was such a pesty annoying person with such high expectations because she was the principal to a school…chirp chirp chirp I would rattle when she was near…not to be biased to my dad’s friend but it was truly how I took it all in…I mean she was not a danger to people just damaging to the mental. psyche…They (crickets) do not create venom like a rattler or some spiders but that darn chirp, chirp, chirp….It messes my ability to sleep and scramble my thoughts…and I always noted her behaviors depended upon the temperatures, Gary…Temperature was key in how much chirping I absorbed in my mind…which is also factual to the insect crickets..Well, I am not around that area anymore…my father died in 2015 so I do not have to know how “Cricket” is but I hope she say a few sticky traps and or some cracks were sealed and she is living a life different than the awful label I gave…
Now I am not one to limit or restrict a person on verbiage but please for the sake of this freedom IM place to share keep the personal attacks down…I mean bride of Satan 😉 and the name calling…come on…are you seriously telling me you ever had a Christmas Card list with actual names of people you called F R I E N D S
hee hee
I am all for being picked on…but I prefer you to cease to exist the behaviors in the harsh manner you have on someone who’s husband perished on June 30 2013. I should refrain from saying that so not to be caught in the web but I feel that way and it is important to share our feelings…right?
I may not being going to that event this week and I was hoping to see Rusty Pistols Reloaded..which was featured in the movie and will play at the event.
I guess I can fact check and see if that was an isolated message to just him or am I included –
try and see if I can buy my own ticket and find out because all the reasons they described does not fit me…I speak about the actions and behaviors of all Wildland Firefighters and I am very much showing the facts on the fabrications but that is the right thing to do.
do you know what the very thing I did after all that chicken shit talk of yours Gary…
I went back to the email I got last night
the one cancelling someone else’s tickets to an event this week…
I had to figure out if that email was sent because of your comment
because Wednesday, June 5, 2019 9:18 AM RTS emailed Karen Norris and she knew I was coming
and she never said I could not go…
and the tickets were bought MidMay as I got an email from Karen Norris and Wednesday, May 15, 2019, 5:26:16 PM MST acknowledging me. I got an email of receipt from another Sent: Wednesday, May 15, 2019, 6:26:17 PM MDT
so they knew all that time so why moments after your comment was I sent a cancellation?
Now for your comments on Neill and MacLean
After all the recent conferences in 2019 of elite FFs coming to me genuinely and with pure heart apologizing to me for believing a key speaker and his researcher but when they further looked into it and read my blog they were fully aware what is happening and they told me to stay the course
and do not allow the negative behaviors change me from stopping to bring the rest out.
It spoke volumes to their Industry that not only am I sharing but going to school to learn the Industry.
They said they hold a very deep appreciation and hopes I could pull this off because it is needed.
the second thing I did was save InvestigativeMedia Yarnell sections and chapters as PDFs in case the site was closed down.
You have that right–those assholes tremble in their boots and high heals when Gary talks. They know his history and who he is–something one can only earn after years of dealing with the rumbles.
Be careful that you don’t become a scapegoat if you lack the credentials. Certainly Joy was unjustly attacked by Amanda and her position at the time had it so even the Judge was listening to her bull shit. I am glad Gary puts her in her place–she is too self centered to see beyond her own desires the way I see it. Lives depend on the truth and she has been number 1 at manipulating around it. And any of those following her and her path deserve the flogging they had been served here on IM.
Thank you for not taking me seriously, that is all I can expect from anyone at this point in my life because I really am an aspirational “Oddball” figure. I have given up on ever becoming. “The Dude.”
I like Oddball so much better, because he can spend the morning killing a entire battalion of enemy soldiers just because they needed to be killed and the afterneen drinking wine, eating cheese and soaking up some rays without a care in the world.
The Dude is just to damn lazy to even kill the people in this world who really need to be killed. I have decided I don’t ever want to be that person.
If someone really needs to be killed, I want to be able to step up to the plate and swing for the fences, before drinking some wine, eating some cheese and soaking up some rays without a care in the world.
I’m sorry Joy, but if this means they are reading what I write and reacting to it, that’s all that’s important to me and you are just collateral damage.
You can’t make an omelette without breaking some eggs and you…you are an egg. Is this attitude wrong of me?
You know I only care about one thing…winning by my standards and definitions of what winning is.
Don’t blame me, I am a product of the system that created me in both federal FIRE and in law enforcement. They didn’t give out blue ribbons for second place finishers in either of those jobs.
“Finish The Fight!”
I didn’t make up that credo to live by…they did and then they drilled that into my head. You didn’t want any second place finishers working for you in either profession…did you?
The end result…I’m not a very nice person. But I think I told everybody that about six years ago.
And you know what I always say about my Christmas card list? I’m not here to add to it.
Oh…and one more thing. Out of my 30 years on the job, there were very few years I didn’t have people working for me.
Sometimes lots of people on complex counter drug operations and undercover operations not to mention on FIRE.
And you know what? Every person that ever went out with me…came back with me. And none of them came back in body bags either, so…sue me.
Okay…just one more. There were a few more reasons why I became the youngest hotshot crew boss at age 23 in the history of hotshot crews and on the Mighty Coconino no less…other than merely serendipity.
But…like I have written before, I was truly a “Fortunate Son” because of all of the great old school U.S. Forest Service wild land firefighters I worked for. Hoo-ah!
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YuYUzjNiZqk
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UoOXlVBlFRA
Gary, you are A #1 in my way of thinking. A hero that does not need to be but can not be denied. I always enjoy your posts–real and to the point. Thanks.
And that is the only other thing I can possibly expect from anyone at this point in my life and considering who you are, the places you have been and the elephants you have seen…Sir, you homer me. 🙏🏻
Double whoops.
“Sir…you honor me!”
You have got to admit though, “homer me” is pretty fuckin funny.
Followed the Smokey the Bear story—all Southern NM areas I am familiar with –I worked as a raise miner at Fierro NM, drove a raise from 400 level almost 150 foot up to next level when the mine went on strike and shut down for 9 months–I was not union as a miner so I left there and went to Nevada to a place called Tempaiute, now called Rachael, Nevada where the UFO bar there gets plenty of tourist visitations–maybe even a lot of UFO traffic. Joy and I visited the bar and even went to the mine that is now shut down owned by Union Carbide–even visited the tunnels I worked in.
Yes that was quite a story Gary posted about Smokey the Bear–something I was not aware of. The last bear I saw was about a year ago when I went to Saw Mill Canyon looking for my Dad’s old gold mine,. We had spent much time there camped in that canyon by a spring cemented in years before during depression days when cc camps were in the area doing land and forest reclamation projects. That bear was as brown as I have ever seen a bear and he was as surprised as we were–I had my big German Shephard but he only had a puzzled look–that bear was only about 30 yards away, stood up and decided he would head the opposite direction. That land has changed so much over the past 50 years since I was there.
Leonard Granado’s old dougout shack is still there with the tin roof more rusted but well identifiable. Leonard was from Lordsburg and would with his burro drag wood up and chop it up then haul it into Lordsburg to sell to the wood burners. I never knew him since Dad had worked those mines even before I was born and would periodically return. In fact we exploded a case of dynamite that he had hidden some 20 years before. I remember it was laden with white crystals–highly dangerous to touch so Dad had placed a half stick of dynamite on top of the case and we went down the hill a good piece. The box went off with a hell of a boom so it still had some volatility even after all those years.
He had ordered a big hog pump that had a 4 inch outlet–something he was going to use in California on a placer mine situation with Mom’s sister’s husband. But some disagreement had arisen between that man and my Dad so the Feather River project went to naught. Dad had invented a gold seperator that looked something like a cement mixer only in a V configuration and he believed that machine was going to collect plenty placer gold. Too bad he never managed to try it out–but I can remember at 12 years of age diving into that cold feather river water. Beautiful country and bear wallows that make Yarnell look like childs play. Anyway pumping that mine all night with that machine suspended over his shaft that he had dug to 20 ft. before striking water only lowered the water a couple feet. So it was a lost cause as far as he was concerned and with his limited equipment–hand steel and dynamite with pick and shovel for mucking after a blast.
I spent two days there and did get near the mine–the roads in are completely gone except up to a fence that was never there before. So two days up there was not enough time for me to relocate the mine. It was a fissure in granite of quartz and pyrite–his assays showed 2 ounces to the ton–but there was some question of the assayer. He said Assayer Arry Wright had quizzed him every time about the location when he went in to get it assayed. Dad began to believe Wright was just putting down an estimate of what he thought it had but was not really truly assaying the ore. Well Dad panned some fine gold out of Gold Gulch down the mountain and stuffed and camoflaged it in some of the bug holed quartz and what should have been a magnificent assay came out to about the same assay–2 0z gold to the ton. So that was one mine I wanted to revisit and send a rock off to see what a competent assayer would say.
That is far and away from wild fire fighting except Sawmill canyon was the place we had put out lightening strikes–and I might even have been able to find those old strikes and evidence of our digging and chopping around those burning trees. But the hill to the south of camp where those strikes landed was similar in steepness to the Weaver drop off the two track and a much longer trek than we had at the Weavers.
So I had just conversed with Joy–Grant at Yarnell has passed–it is said that he was found maybe a week ago and had been dead for a couple days before being found. He was a single fellow and American Legion member at the post is Yarnell. He had been on his rooftop in the Shrine area watching the burning going on there. For some reason he did not like fire fighters–maybe he thought they caused his home to burn. At any rate the pains he was having in his cranium had progressed to the point he decided to take his own life. I can remember him asking around for pain medicine and knew he was suffering–maybe a brain tumor. Looking at him you would have never thought he was ill. I reckoned him to be about my age–but I also reckon him to be another Orange Agent Slurry casualty. Lords and Gods of the Irish, when will these stop?
Gary has some of the best stories and advice for the young wild land fire fighter. I am glad they are posted and perhaps some day will be amassed and held for posterity.
Bummer about your friend. I’m sorry to hear that. Life is to short and to precious. And I hated New Mexico when I first got there, but after a few years it became home and I came love the state and I still do although I don’t love everything about it.
That Lincoln County country is pretty darn nice though, as are the Capitan Mountains…wouldn’t you agree?
And my stories can’t compare to yours! I just wish we could get RTS to loosen up and tell us some. That ole boy saw the elephant…of that we can be assured!
Gary your stories are important If I were a wild land fire fighter then I could rate some. But I am amazed at the challenges you fellows have endured and perhaps with some glee–something I also understand. If you love your work you always present as an Ace.
**
** SHAWNA LEGARZA TESTIFIES ( AGAIN ) TO U.S. SENATE
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 10, 2019 at 10:00 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I have finally been to figure out who I remind myself of since
>> I was not only an accidental hotshot, but an accidental hotshot
>> crew boss as well ( like I have previously written ) since I had
>> a front row seat as both a spectator and participant to some of
>> the most historical events and during a truly historical time
>> in wild land firefighting as events happened to me and around me.
>>
>> I think I am the Forest Gump of WLF and my E Ticket roller coaster
>> ride was like a box of chocolates…
It certainly seems that way… including that recent story of one of your crew ending up maintaining helicopters for the Shah of Iran, when he wasn’t beating the Iranian Guards on the foosball table some of your other crew shipped to him.
And don’t forget another one of the heights of ‘Gumpness’… when they decided to film the movie about the Granite Mountain Hotshots right in your old stomping grounds, in/around the Valles Caldera in New Mexico.
The ‘list’ goes on.
And speaking of which… here is the “evil one” herself, Shawna Legarza,slinging her bullshit once again in front of the United States Senate.
This was TODAY.
Shawna Legarza testifying before theh U.S. Senate, June 13, 2019…
Witness Panel 1
Mrs. Shawna Legarza
Director, Fire Aviation and Management
USDA Forest Service
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H6dQCvKJQJs
Followup…
In the same Seante hearing TODAY, United States Senator Maria Cantwell wasn’t really putting up with Shawna Legarza’s bullshit.
KING 5 NEWS
Senator Maria Cantwell calls on the U.S. Forest Service to IMMEDIATELY
implement 21st century tools and resources to combat wildfires.
Author: KING 5 Staff
Published: 2:21 PM PDT June 13, 2019
https://www.king5.com/article/news/local/wildfire/cantwell-we-want-to-use-every-resource-that-we-can-to-fight-wildfires/281-bc53c690-5312-4fa7-8931-2f7c3116713d
————————————————————————————————
WASHINGTON, D.C., DC — At a Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee hearing to examine the outlook for wildland fire and management programs for 2019, Sen. Maria Cantwell (D-WA) called upon the U.S. Forest Service to immediately implement “21st century tools” and resources to fight wildfires.
Cantwell says she wants the Forest Service to use GPS systems to monitor resources, assets and firefighters– as early as this season.
“We want to use every resource that we can,” Cantwell said, addressing U.S. Forest Service Fire Aviation and Management Director Shawna Legarza.
“What are you doing to implement the tools we just gave you?”
“I know that BLM has now agreed to do this IMMEDIATELY.”
“What can we do to get the Forest Service to also IMMEDIATELY implement that GPS system so we KNOW the location(s) of resources and assets on a fire?”
—————————————————————————————————-
Sure enough, the evil one’s answer proves ( once again ) that the word ‘immediately’ does not exist in the U.S. Foresty vocabulary… but Senator Cantwell wasn’t really buying her corporate-level foot-dragging bullshit…
—————————————————————————————————
Shawna Legarza: Thank you, Senator. What we’re doing in the Forestry Service… actually, interagency… at the National Interagency Fire Center… in just a couple of weeks, we’re having a 3-day interagency technology day to find out what is out there. Then, together, we’re gonna figure out what we need interagency wise… not just the Forest Service but with the BLM and the states… and then put together a request for information and an RFP for proposal and find out how much all that costs so that we can all talk together and be integrated through time.
Senator Maria Cantwell: Well… just… Mr. Rupert’s agency… and we went through this a year or so ago where we all went down with the secretary… not to put you on the spot… but we did go down a YEAR ago, or TWO years ago now… with the secretary and say this is what BLM already implemented in their resource management of fire lands and drones and real time information… and an MOU was signed by the agencies to implement that. Now we’re here today, where BLM has ALREADY taken the technology legislation that my I and my colleague from Colorado… basically you have a year to implement it but we’re just saying that with the fire season upon us… the fact that BLM has already implemented this RIGHT AWAY… why can’t we get the Forest Service to do the SAME?
Shawna Legarza: Yeah… well… we’re… uhm… putting a strategy together to do that. With… in regards to the UAS… we’ve been very proactive with the BLM and DOI and other state agencies. The Klondike Fire last year in Oregon… the state of Alaska brought their Incident Management Team down and we asked them to do a video on what they were doin’ for unmanned aerial surveillance for burning out, location of spot fires, and mapping. Same thing on the Tonto fire in Arizona this year using UAS on Forest Service lands working together with DOI and OAS.
Senator Maria Cantwell: Can we get either you and Mr. Rupert… now that we know that our satellites can give us spot fire information… are we USING that on a daily basis? It’s almost minute-by-minute information about where a fire starts. So… are we implementing that satellite information into a real-time response?
Shawna Legarza: That’s our goal. Our goal is to get a real-time common operating pictures… and… and we’re working towards that… and would be happy to meet with you and have some more discussions on… uh… real-time operating picture technology.
Senator Maria Cantwell: I have met with Forest Chief Chrisiansen, who I have a lot of respect for, and I get that there are a lot of new tools. I guess what we are saying is… pick the most urgent ones that you CAN implement TODAY. Do NOT STUDY THIS for an ENTIRE YEAR.
————————————————————————————————-
That’s pretty funny. I wonder if that Foosball Table is still sitting in some Iranian Revolutionary Guard barracks in Tehran? Fuckin’ Persians…probably never even figured out how to play.
So anyway…I think you will find this one way discussion interesting. I have mentioned bits and pieces of it before, but now is a good time to put some icing on that cake.
The USFS is a very decentralized agency with an inverted power structure, unlike the FBI for example. The agency has a history of pushing the money and the power to the lowest level possible and that is down to the individual district level. Other land management agencies are the same, but the USFS really takes it serious because that is where the work gets done. Which is really good government if you think about it.
There are multiple districts on a forest, multiple forests in a region, and 10 regions make up the USFS. The money and the power that goes with it, which is the ability to decide what and how to spend the money starts out in Washington.
It is then divided up and sent down to the regions while holding only a little bit back for pet projects or maybe some emergency move up money to shuffle resources around before there are fires to charge it off to. I don’t really know much about it at that level.
Then once it gets down to the region, the Director of Fire and Aviation Management really doesn’t have much power either except to decide which forests get the money that is divided up into different pots.
And then the Forest Fire Management Officer really doesn’t have that much power either except to decide which districts get how much money. And of course both the Region and Forests hold back some money for pet projects and emergencies as well, but not that much because everyone knows how much money is on the table and they all fight over it like hogs at the feeding trough and they start eating each other if the feeding frenzy really gets going.
Plus, each one of those fire “bosses” all have their bosses who also have chains of little piggies under them as well who have more power to decide how much goes where.
For example, Shawna works for the Chief Of The USFS, well…she may technically work for a deputy, but you get the picture. The Regional FMO’s all work for Regional Foresters and District FMO’s work for District Rangers who all work for the Forests Suoervisor (or more likely their deputies). Nobody has much respect for Shawna, anymore than any sports team does their head cheerleader.
Anyway, there are two chains of command that exist side by side with some cross over because District FMO’s also have to answer to Forest FMO’s, but their District Rangers sign off on their Time and Attendence, which makes them the real boss.
Anyway, most of that doesn’t matter. Here is the point of the story. Shawna Legarza doesn’t have any real power to tell anybody to do anything. She has a very small staff, but otherwise, no one gives a fuck what she thinks about anything except for how she divides the money up once she gets it from Congress.
Now that you bring it up, she is thought of as nothing more than a figurehead and here is where she does become important…she is the cheerleader and aplogist for the USFS to the people who really do matter in that entire royal cluster fuck…Congress.
Or more specifically, the House Subcommittee for Natural Resources, if you ever want to know how to choke out the USFS, BLM or NPS, here is who you go see, Raul Grihalva.
https://grijalva.house.gov/
https://naturalresources.house.gov/subcommittees/national-parks-forests-and-public-lands
That’s one reason hotshot crews are the pride and joy of the USFS and every other federal agency who can get one and nobody gives a fuck about a few jumpers here and there. Hotshot crews cost lots and lots of money and as national assets, they are funded right off the top.
And there is even some room to skim more than a little bit by the Forest and District who is blessed enough to have one. The four hotshot crews on the Mighty Coconino under Bill Buck were far more than just bragging rights, They were a power base. All hotshot crews are power bases and TWO hotshot crews make a power base twice as big as one. The City of Prescott didn’t invent that shell game…they didn’t even have enough time to get very good at it. 🙂
That is why the Chief of the USFS could ORDER that all hotshot crews carry fire shelters after tye Loop Fire Of 1966 and in 1976 on the Battlement Creek Fire, four Mormon Lake Hotshots laid down in the dirt to be burned alive without one. Nobody gave a fuck what the Chief Of tye USFS ORDERED. The Regional, Forest and District FMO’s just decided they didn’t like fire shelters except for those pussy’s in R-5.
But like I wrote before, when they made us carry them in California, we threw them in the bushes as we walked out of fire camp and then we put our lunches in those neat fuckin’ pouches the fire shelters came in.
Of..and that is one reason Shawna was ordered to cover up and falsify the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride and why to this day, the official cover story is that Mormon Lake chose to leave their fire shelters in fire camp against the regulations.
Wait…a lot if those young Iranians had gone to college here in the US. Now that I think about it, I bet a lot of them were pretty good at Foosball, table tennis and binge driniking, at least if they went to ASU and then for sure on the binge drinking?
Maybe that Foosball table is a cherished heirloom to this very day and whichever Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps battalion has the best team gets to keep THE TABLE at their barracks for that year because for sure Foosball tables are on the embargo list.
Either that or those assholes in the Quds Force just took it and they are bogarting it all for themselves. Sounds like a bunch of asshole smokejumpers.
Reply to Gary Olson post on June 14, 2019 at 4:44 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> The USFS is a very decentralized agency with an inverted power
>> structure, unlike the FBI for example. The agency has a history
>> of pushing the money and the power to the lowest level possible
>> and that is down to the individual district level.
>>
>> ( Snip – Excellent summary of “Follow the bouncing )
>> money/power ball” and “How it really is” )
>>
>> Here is the point of the story. Shawna Legarza doesn’t have any real
>> power to tell anybody to do anything. She has a very small staff,
>> but otherwise, no one gives a fuck what she thinks about
>> anything except for how she divides the money up once she
>> gets it from Congress.
Well… than THAT would have been more of an honest answer to Senator Cantwell than Legarza’s lame “We’re working on it” crap.
It was obvious what Senator Cantwell was trying to say to Legarza.
– I have met with Christiansen. I get it. There are LOTS of ‘toys’ and ‘tools’
– Nobody said it would be ‘easy’ to introduce new technology. If you want easy… go wash cars for a living.
– This is IMPORTANT and it is WAAAY OVERDUE. It can SAVE LIVES… and I don’t care if someone has to actually sit YOU down and give you a crash course on things you should have been ‘educating’ yourself and your agency on for years… or even if someone has to fast-explain to you the difference between a candy-bar phone, a flip phone and a smartphone… or what the differences between 2G, 3G, 4G and 5G are.
GET IT DONE. DO IT NOW.
If the actual impediment to doing that is just a a ‘power structure’ and/or organizational problem… then let’s put that on the table and slice and dice it as well.
Well..as I keep saying, for all of its strengths as the premier wildfire fighting institution in the world, the USFS really, really, really hates change and innovation and they truly are the exact opposite of a “progressive” agency who does make the U.S. Military look like a radical and free thinking agent for change.
I don’t think Legarza is up to the task and I don’t think anyone else would be either? I like to think I was very in tune with what was happening in the interagency world of FIRE management, especially during my last four years where I regularly went on long term fire assignments and details across the country to centralized and regional offices whioe I was an office slug.
BUT…if you would put the person or persons who was in the job that Shawna now occupies face and even NAME in a line up from those four years, I wouldn’t be able to pick their face or their name out of that line up.
That person or persons, whoever they were, just didn’t matter to the FIRE rank and file. Almost everyone in Congress who appropriatetge agencies funding knew who they were, but we didn’t. And what’s more, we didn’t care who they were because they were inconsequential in our lives.
It’s a really an easy task Senator Cantwell has demanded Legarza do because like I said, Walmart has been tracking INDIVIDUAL pallets of their goods for years, much less their trucks..but not to an institution that is still stuck in the 1950’s doing things the same way they did them back then and lovin’ it.
You know…except for the Unholy Alliance they made with the Round Hats that led to Mass Hysteria and decades of darkness that we will never be able to recover from and has now diluted our blood lines and gene pool to the point we are a dying culture who will spend the remainder of the time we have left as mere wraiths hiding in the shadows of our former glory. I am now grateful COPD will finally lift this veil of tears before my time and take me so I won’t have to witness, much less experience our final and dying days as a forsaken culture while we wallow in our shared shame and humiliation as bitches (non gender specific) for the Blue Shirted Round Hats.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=SA1SxZoFmOU
Although I can tell you who the Chief of the USFS was during those four years. In fact, I met him at the national convention of the National Garden Club, his name was Max Peterson.
He personally invited me to a private party with the national leadership of the National Garden Club and he and his staff in a very nice suite at the convention center in Albuquerque where I spent the remainder of the afternoon with some very fine people who treated me as their guest of honor.
They were all drinking hard liquor and partying like it was the end of probation. I mean…those old ladies and Chief Peterson knew how to get down and party hard, but I didn’t join them because I didn’t want to embarrass myself in front of about 1000 convention delegates later that evening by tripping or you know…fucking up in some way even though they kept putting martinis in my hands and toasting me. I just smiled, thanked them politely for their kindness and then poured those drinks into planters when they weren’t looking.
Because later that evening, we were all scheduled to go to the main convention hall together and when I say there was at least 1000 members of the National Garden Club cheering me…I kid you not. The downtown convention center was packed with delegates from every state in the nation cheering me and wanting to touch me as I walked around the huge hall individually greeting them.
Wait…I’m having another Forest Gump moment. Max…the Chief told me to go ahead and call him Max, and I had our photo taken together to commerate the unforgettable time we spent together. His staff later sent me a cooy of the photo, but I sent it back to them and ask them to have Max autograph it for me.
Which of course he did and I received it back at my office a few weeks later from D.C. with a very gracious note from Max that essentially wished me the best of luck with my career. I had it framed and proudly kept it on my desk for visitors to my office to enjoy for the remainder of my career with the United States Forest Service. And I might add…to suitably impress visitors to my office because they could plainly see that I had a very good friend in a very high place indeed.
I am going to look for my digitized photo of Max and I to post to my website because I am picking up a vibe that some of my detractors think I might be fluffing this story just a bit. But I can assure you…I am not!
As promised…I found this very important and historical photo. Also shown in the photo is the national president of the National Garden Club and Woodsy the Owl.
And I am pretty sure everyone already knows this, but just FYI, nobody cared about seeing much less meeting Woodsy the Owl. I mean really…who does?
I was the star that day…no question about it. Well…maybe “I” wasn’t the star, but we were a symbiotic package. I was magnificent…and reall tall…and BIG! So…
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
Oh…and one more thing. Of course I wasn’t in “character” or in my Smokey suit during the party in the suite.
Max and those old ladies really did treat me like I was the star and they really were very gracious to me. I just couldn’t get into drinking martinis all afternoon long because I had driven down from Santa Fe at the request of the Regional Office because you know…I was so tall and so big.
And I had to drive a USFS truck back to Santa Fe from ABQ after my appearance at the convention later that night and I couldn’t have been drinking.
I really was there on special request because the National Garden Club was celebrating Smokey’s Bithday as the theme of their yearly conference and the RO wanted the biggest bear they could find for Max and his entourage.
They really did insist I spend the afternnon with them and they really did treat me like I was their honored guest. It was a really unusual experience.
Oh..and one more thing. I really did send the photo back to the WO Public Affairs Office and ask that Max autograph it for me, which he did.
And then I really did keep it framed and on my desk as an inside joke. I thought it was pretty fuckin’ funny!
YJCMTSU
You. Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Just think… if you had NOT dumped all the drinks into the planters… then just like Tom Hanks/Gump… you would have probably gotten up on stage and said…
“I have to pee”
Yes…and they led me around this huge room filed with clapping and very excited old women (whom I now refer to as my dating base, except for my Special Lady Friend who will never grow old and I do hope to actually take on a date someday).
I really do think there must have been at least 1000 of them. I think it was Smokey’s 40th Birthday that year and it was all part of a big national PR campaign for America’s favorite bear.
And just for those who don’t know our nation’s history, Smokey was a real bear cub who was found severely burned and orphaned and subsequently rescued by USFS firefighters down on the Capitan District of the Lincoln National Forest in the Capitan Mountains of central New Mexico (where Hub Harris originally came from) in Billy The Kid Country who was made famous during the Range Wars between the cattlemen and the sheepmen. So New Mexico is steeped in Smokey The Bear history, which made his appearance at that convention in ABQ really important. R-3 – New Mexico always took its role in Smokey The Bear lore very seriously, so I was actually quite happy and honored to be playing him at such an important event.
Anyway…I had already tried on THE SUIT and so I knew my real problem was going to be tripping or knocking over some tables filled with my excited dating based, most of which had also been drinking. I was led around this rather packed and very dim room (where all of those old ladies had all just just spent the evening with a banquet, drinking and listening to speeches, so they were ready for some real entertainment) and finally up on to the stage by one of the Public Affairs people. Smokey was the MAIN Event and Highlighter of the evening.
Max had some of his staff with him, plus the place was crawling with very nervous women from both the Washington and Regional Offices Public Affairs staff who were all very worried that I might fuck things up by tripping or grabbing the mike to say a few words to my adoring audience.
Nobody paid any attention or gave a fuck about Woodsy The Owl. I think the real Smokey might have been dead by then so they were trying to get America interested in a stupid owl which never caught on so in the end. they just kept Smokey alive in our collective hearts ♥️
I actually made a pilgrimage to visit Smokey’s original home down in Capitan, but I think he lived at tye National Zoo in DC. I used to fight fire down on the Lincoln back in the day. It was kinda like our Tonto in New Mexico, except it was a lot nicer because it wasn’t you know…the SONORAN DESERT 🌵
Oh…and I was still actually the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss at that time, so I was carrying one of our crew FIRE shovels with our District and crew fire marking on the handle.
There were always project tools and FIRE tools. And FIRE tools were never used on project work.
So that shovel kinda complicated my stroll around that big and dimly lit room filled with cheering old ladies who were all about half lit cause it was…sharp and had a long handle.
Oh…and one more thing. Some of those old ladies who were really drunk kept stuffing dollar bills into the pockets of Smokey’s pants while I walked around the room.
And then once I finally made it up onto the stage, they started yelling, “TAKE IT OFF…TAKE IT OFF!” And some of them even threw their panties up onto the stage.
It was all kinda of embarrassing, but I soldiered on and never lost sight of my primary objective….just don’t fall down and get the fuck out of that room with Smokey’s honor still intact!
As a matter of fact, I was afraid I wasn’t even going to make it out of there until one of the WO Public Affairs Officers popped the top on a smoke canister while they blared the song “Susie Q” by CCR over the loudspeakers and a Huey landed to pick me up.
With all purity and if they came to the plate with all purity-
technology and tools is my area of where I could be of help yet I do not see them as people who have that as their best interest…LIVES…
($$$$)
I have a take that they would pick my brain and go shit this girl is what she says and more like fellas at high levels of interest have already stated to me and they are the ones that created the tools and I intimidate them they have told me.
God made my brain strange.
Most people my age do not start their days off with some of the things I do like Classical music … Four Seasons … Vivaldi … it gets me going… 🙂
Everyone has their choices of what gets their brain going or not yet I can state my flaws whereas others will whisper saying don’t air it … people do not need to know those things or TMI yet in reality if we are to learn and grow then we need to know who we are and share…
Ever since I seen the photos of certain firefighters that afternoon to July 1st, 2013- I have always wanted to show Alan Sinclair’s pic and show the world that photo because the pain in his face if he would just stop “hearting” social media messages that are truly /b> false as well as Holly Neill complimenting sections of the threads saying Only The Brave can deal with disgusting trolls! Keep on smiling Eric, we’ve got your back” (as she too hearted the social media message) and stop engaging and burying June 30 2013 in your current work. That’s sad.
I look forward to their book because I have the photos of him and I want to see how they present to the world in their made for profit book (on a tragic event where 19 died and many more since) and how they formulate HOW he took it all in because I will at that point show any differences if they show it any other form but true pure form.
I also recorded June 30, 2014 hike so that should comfort them to know I also can share how Alan took it all in as I went to show them and Roth and his girl and Michael Kodas the exact position the homeowner took that photo which other FFs – 1 from Flagstaff who later bought the boat off that property – they have a real documented story so we will all wait for what John MacLean and his researcher crew put out but I guarantee I am interested especially when I see heart emoticons on social media on fabrications and dangerous statements made—ill. That is stored as well with the right folks. Believe you me, the right people are watching … it is not just Joy… I am just the vocal one for so many…
I already have the facts out to certain needed areas – it is not only out but some of it is in publication now.
Halt …or slow down…this 2019 Fire Season… as you need to be fully aware the recent discussions the Senate spoke about – the people I know are high up there and they are watching all aspects and especially my path and Sonny’s and how we are treated … it is the time for truth and like I said I domino-ed it out in a way if one of you who were there decide to take your internal self-afflictions out on me or folks around me – it is still going to be presented out. No more.
Like I said it is time for some of you to take the therapy time and get them to help you piece it out in your thoughts best way to present it out the facts-
as I said in years past here on IM – George Hunter’s home was photographed with part of his home wall knocked down and not one of you in the fire industry felt bad enough to go to him and own up that the tire tracks in the photo matched you….that’s wrong…you made a chaotic move with the vehicle June 30, 2013 and you should say you are sorry to a man who built that home with his own hands of heart and sweat and now has to live with it as if noone noticed and he does not like his “cookie cutter” home; he misses the one he built…
I have Yarnell Hill Fire firefighters who in pure form told me they wanted to do structure protection yet were told no – they wanted to jump out and do it to later park near the home after the fire and see it burned down. Haunting effects. Realisms.
I am paying attention, George Hunter- I am…Sonny and I saw the photos at American Legion of that home’s wall knocked down before the fire destroyed it, I am in course of asking for an interview with Reyes because his vehicle is stationed in front of his home and I want to fill in the swiss cheese moments.
Anyone reach me at my blog ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and tell the real story ( anonymous is fine )
I’ve been thinking about YOU
I feel the deep Spiritual connection between us.
So it is normal for me to think why have you not SPOKE UP yet?
I believed I had showed you all the concern and the affection that I feel for your situation…truth and speaking it matters!
In doing it, you will begin to not only reveal the events but you will see a revelation about yourself- your personality, your hopes and your hidden desires.
Cool huh.
I have seen that you may experience some trouble asserting yourself and being who you really are but rest assured once you do- the freeing feeling…it is priceless…
Time for your life to improve in the right way not in the monetary and promotional ways…stop burying your years into the fire world and talk about Yarnell Hill Fire in its raw pure form. In return, you are helping firefighters even though Ms Pfingston was told by one do you wanna see us in prison – something to that sorts – this is about LIVES lost and the lives that are still here need to speak…
I think after you read this you will already see a change in your life and around you by the close of the day…
This is regrettable if you have a stronghold to keep moving forward and engaging elsewhere and not purely sharing June 30, 2013 because you could experience an improvement in all of your life areas, if you only quite simply assert yourself and become self confident.
You are at a crossroads in your life. It is not a coincidence.
All part of God’ plan…the good, the bad, the ugly…
You are a rare person.
I have faith in you.
Please stop looking at your fire maps for 2019 Fire Season and look at the map to YOUR life…it is time.
At this very moment I extend my sympathy and friendship 100% to you.
Embrace your uniqueness.
I await your response within the next few hours [email protected] – 480-559-1971
Let’s do this…
Charlie Reyes-
Engine 59 is photographed in front of this home
If you Charlie Reyes ( Engine boss ) on the Yarnell Hill Fire with
2 crewman… Steve Emery and Ryan Ferris have any more data to FILL IN why George’s home’s wall was knocked down before the fire hit it- please at least let the family and him know the details…he at least deserves that…or reach me and I can tell them.
(attached a photo of George Hunter before the fire)
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1J9WceQYGrXyH-KwN_flRXzsJIbFw1iW7/view?usp=sharing
I’m a little surprised at Senator Cantrell though because she sounds like a bulldog on this issue and she isn’t even from the East side of Washington where they have a lot of large and destructive fires and they have also had so many WLF deaths?
I wonder what has got her lit up because she is on the Energy Subcommittee so that shitbag Legarza isn’t even afraid of pissing her of from the sound of her lackluster bullshit, she didn’t sound to me like she was even trying very hard?
I would like to see Raul Grihalva from the House bitch (non gender specific) slap the bitch (gender specific) right out of Legarza and put a hold on about 10% of the USFS FIRE funding just to get her fuckin’ attention.
Of course this all ties right into one of my biggest bitches for the last six years. The USFS values three things above all else,
1. Tradition
2. Tradition
3. Tradition
And Legarza looked around and couldn’t detect any sign of any tradition of USFS FIRE people carrying GPS locators and transponders and so she just can’t move forward on the concept.
And it doesn’t surprise me one little bit the BLM has already done so since they don’t have any traditions at all…good or bad. They wake up in a new world every fuckin’ day, which can be a really good thing.
Plus like I wrote…Legarza doesn’t have any power to tell anybody to do anything. She has to go and convince 10 Regional Directors of FIRE that it’s a good idea and then they have to go convince a few dozen Forest FMO’s it’s a good idea and then they have to go convince a few hundred District FMO’s its a good idea first.
But those District FMO’s will probably say, “Fuck no…just send us the money and you can tell that stupid shit Legarza when it runs out so she can go get us some more!”
Of course Cantwell represents the entire state. So I’m pretty sure some families of some dead WLF got to one of her staffers. I’m not that familiar with all of the disaster fires from Eastern Washington, but I bet you can trace it to some of those.
That is just one thing that makes me so angry to this very day at the firmer Mrs. Marsh and her posse of enablers. I can tell you the families of the dead GMIHC coukd go see Grihalva down in Tucson and you would see lots of really big and important changes in the way this country fights wildfire…tomorrow if not sooner. And it coukd have happened starting six years ago.
But no…their lies are far more important to them than the lives of current and future WLF.
OMGosh…I just read her testimony, what a double talking full of shit bullshit artist she thinks she is. And I specify, “Thinks she is” because I find it hard to believe anyone would buy her lies and stupid fuckin’ childish excuses.
What a joke! Wait….this can’t be a joke because we didn’t have any idea where an entire hotshot crew was when they burned to death like…SIX FUCKIN’ YEARS AGO…THIS AINT FUNNY NO MORE!
This is an interesting, little-known paper written by former Assistant US Attorney (AZ) Mike Johns (RiP) in 2008 at a Serious Accident Investigation Team (SAIT) training course. It’s 12 pages long and worth reading if you are interested in the inner workings of a SAIT, at least in the 2008 era.
It mirrors Dr. Ted Putnam’s 2011 paper tiled “Accident, accident guides, stories and the truth” for the IAWF that the WLLLC refuses to publish or post on their website. However, it is posted on http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com and Academia.edu.
And it is very informative regarding the way they treat documents (“records”) and what the SAIT and SME members can get away with when covered under the various “immunity” clauses.
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Responses by Mike Johns (with input from USDA OGC and others) to questions posed for the SAIT
Course, 2008:
Note: For some difinitive [sic] answers the appropriate agency official should submit these questions to USDA OGC and DOI Office of the Solicitor. The information provided here is not intended to be
legal advice or to cover any specific situation or investigation.
1. What degree of confidentiality can we give witnesses during accident investigation
interviews?
There is no specific authority that I can find for an SAIT to advise a witness that information will
be kept confidential (other than some statutorily protected information such as proprietary
commercial information – largely irrelevant). SAIT is a multi agency entity so one has to consider
policies of each agency. Current policy guidance in DOI Manual 485, Chapter 7 “Incident/Accident
Reporting/Serious Accident Investigation” (1999) provides for sharing information obtained in the
investigation including the following excerpts:
4) Ensure that the OSHA Area Office nearest to the serious accident is offered the opportunity to participate in the investigation. It may choose to conduct a separate investigation of the accident. If so, all factual information and evidence will be made available to its investigators, as requested, and without formal processes.
Note: Upon completion of the bureau investigation and report, the same OSHA Office, at its request, will be provided with appropriate information, as identified in 29 CFR 1960.29(d).
The cited regulation provides:
(c) Any information or evidence uncovered during accident investigations which would be of benefit in developing a new OSHA standard or in modifying or revoking an existing standard should be promptly transmitted to the Secretary.
(d) The investigative report of the accident shall include appropriate documentation on date, time, location, description of operations, description of accident, photographs, interviews of employees and witnesses, measurements, and other pertinent information. A copy of the investigative report required by this section shall be forwarded to the official in charge of the workplace, the appropriate safety and health committee, and the exclusive employee representative, if any. The investigative report shall be made available to the Secretary or his authorized representative on request.
The Forest Service appears to be moving away from the concept of a joint accident investigation
with OSHA in fire cases because the OSHA investigation is “regulatory” in nature. See attached
USFS Fire Operations Risk Management Information Briefing Paper, October 28, 2008.
Page 2
The DOI Manual goes on to state the following which includes a reference to possible confidential
statements but I could not find authority for a confidentiality agreement:
H. If evidence of criminal activity other than negligence, dereliction of duties, disobedience of a directive, or possible third-party liability is discovered, the SAIT or TI should discontinue the investigation and notify the Federal Bureau of Investigation and local law enforcement authorities, Office of the Inspector General (OIG) and the bureau DASHO immediately. If the evidence is based on confidential
witness statements, the SAIT or TI should not disclose the individual statements, but provide a list of all witnesses to the law enforcement authorities and/or OIG.
Regardless of a promise of confidentiality, OSHA, the OIG and DOJ can reach witness statements
by subpoena or authorized investigative demand. Local prosecutors and private litigants can
probably also reach these statements with a court order.
In sum, current policy does not appear to support any promise of confidentiality by a SAIT. Note
that the Forest Service Accident Prevention Analysis alternative involves an “agreement” between
the APA Team and the Agency Administrator that information will not be used in administrative
actions against employees, and written witness statements are not obtained. Nonetheless, the
information is ultimately obtainable via the same compulsory legal processes applicable to an SAIT,
and the duty to report information about fraud, waste, abuse or gross mismanagement trumps any
promise of confidentiality.
Page 3
2 Can agencies compel a witness to provide verbal or written statements for the purposes of
accident investigations? If so, how should this process be managed, and who outside of the SAIT,
if anyone, should be involved?
Short answer: Agencies can compel their own employees to do so – the employing agency (rather
than the SAIT) should do so – but compelled testimony has legal implications and need approval by
agency counsel and/or DOJ before being compelled.
USDA OGC noted:
A. USDA employees are required to cooperate with investigations related to official
matters. Failure to cooperate may constitute a basis for disciplinary action up to and
including removal. See the Employee Rights and Responsibilities in Administrative
Investigative Interviews and DR 4070 attached.
B. The FS has also provided in some cases a Kalkines Warning to employees. However, the agency should work closely with the AUSA office prior to granting the warning. See the Curry v. USDA MSPB case attached.
DOI has a manual provision on this subject, DM 452, Chapter 3 “Witness Immunity Procedures”
which requires approvals within the Department, the Solicitor’s Office and DOJ (copy attached).
Johns paper continued …
AUSA Johns (RiP) paper continued …
Page 4
3. What actions should serious accident investigation teams take if an employee refuses to cooperate and/or withhold evidence during an accident investigation? Some agencies have policy stating that disciplinary action can be taken in these circumstances…if employee is informed of this potential, is it considered “compelling” them?
If an employee refuses to cooperate in an investigation, the employing agency can consider
compelling cooperation (see above caveats). While the SAIT has delegated authority from the
agency(s) to conduct interviews, it would be best to have the employing agency do any compelling.
All agencies can take disciplinary action if an employee of that agency refuses to cooperate. If the refusal to cooperate is grounded in a claim against self incrimination, compelling the cooperation can result in “use immunity” – which means the compelled information cannot be used in a criminal investigation or prosecution. The information can still be used in an administrative proceeding/failure to cooperate after a grant of immunity can be grounds for discipline including removal. Because compulsion can result in use immunity it should be pre-approved by the employing agency, agency counsel and DOJ.
Informing an employee of the potential for discipline for non cooperation is problematic – unless recorded, the employee may claim that disciplinary action was threatened. Explanation of rights is a complex problem – a desire not to cooperate is no defense to discipline /assertion of a right not to incriminate one’s self must be grounded in good faith and people may differ whether there is an objective good faith basis to assert the 5 [Fifth Amendment]. It is probably better to let them refuse, and go get the authority to compel them on the grounds there is no good faith basis for incrimination concern, or with use immunity authority.
The SAI process assumes there is no criminal investigation, so the appropriate warning is that used by the OIG in a civil investigation – with no immunity intended or granted:
“Before I ask you any questions, or request a statement, you must understand your
rights, which are:
You have a right to remain silent if your answers may tend to incriminate you.
Anything you say may be used as evidence both in an administrative proceeding or
any future criminal proceeding involving you.
If you refuse to answer the questions posed to you on the ground that the answers
may tend to incriminate you, you cannot be dismissed solely for remaining silent.
However, your silence can be construed in an administrative proceeding for its
evidentiary value that is warranted by the facts surrounding your case.”
Where there is an explicit threat of discipline for failure to cooperate, the situation can become
complex and can vary among the Circuit Courts. For example, in Sher v. Department of
Veterans Affairs, 488 F.3d 489 (1 Cir. 2007), an employee had been given a letter from the
Page 5
U.S. Attorney declining prosecution for certain acts but not others. The employee was
represented by counsel and declined to cooperate unless the declination letter was clarified.
The agency terminated the employee without giving the employee a chance to clarify the
scope of immunity. Two of the judges ruled that the employee was sufficiently immunized
by the threat of termination (compulsion) so that he could be terminated regardless of the
limited declination by the U.S. Attorney. In other words, the compulsion alone immunized
the testimony regardless of any letter from the U.S. Attorney, so refusing to cooperate
justified termination. The dissenting judge believed that the employee still had an objectively
reasonable concern that his statements could still be used against him because the letter from
the U.S. Attorney did not cover all the acts of the employee at issue. The dissenting judge
also believed that the employee should have been given time to get clarification of the scope
of immunity. The dissenting judge also explained that this complex area of the law is applied
differently among the circuit courts, so the outcome of a refusal to immediately cooperate
in an investigation can depend on the specific facts, as well as the specific location the
employee is in the country:
“Given the complexity of this area of the law, it is not surprising that the circuits are split as to whether a government employer is required to advise an employee of his rights and obligations before he can be disciplined for maintaining his silence. As I read the cases, three circuits-the Fifth, Eighth, and Eleventh-have arguably held that the government employer does not have a disclosure obligation. See Hill v. Johnson, 160 F.3d 469, 471-72 (8th Cir.1998) (“[T]he mere failure affirmatively to offer immunity is not an impermissible attempt to compel a waiver of immunity.”); Hester v. City of Milledgeville, 777 F.2d 1492, 1496 (11th Cir.1985) (“We fail … to see how the city’s failure to offer the plaintiffs use immunity could make any constitutional
difference…. [A]ny grant of use immunity to the plaintiffs would have been duplicative.”); Gulden v. McCorkle, 680 F.2d 1070, 1075 (5th Cir.1982), cert. denied,459 U.S. 1206, 103 S.Ct. 1194, 75 L.Ed.2d 439 (1983) (“Failure to tender immunity was simply not the equivalent of an impermissible compelled waiver of immunity.”). However, even among these circuits, the answer at least in the Fifth and Eleventh circuits is not wholly clear.” (footnote omitted)
Bottom line – get agency counsel/DOJ approval before compelling cooperation.
Page 6
4. We recommend in the course that most field notes and draft copies of reports (or portions of reports e.g., working documents) be disposed of. They are used during the deliberative process to identify findings and causes that often evolve throughout the process. Do you support this recommendation from a legal perspective?
Information obtained by or created by an agency is subject to statutory control. If the information is a “record” it cannot be destroyed except in accordance with schedules approved by the agency and the National Archives and Records Administration (NARA) (fiscal records have additional requirements). If the information is “non-record” material, it can be destroyed. Some “non-record” material, like an information copy, can be converted to a “record” if it is used in a way which would shed light on agency operations, decisions, etc. – such as by circulating it and getting comments or causing some action to be taken – in which case it should be retained. A copy of excerpts from FSH 6209.11 with underlining is attached for further explanation. USDA DR 3080-001 “Records Management” explains:
Nonrecord materials are not generally included on records schedules because 44 U.S.C. Chapter 33 does not cover their disposal. Officials should dispose ofnonrecord materials as soon as they have served their purpose and are no longer needed. The agency, service, or staff office Records Officer should be contacted for advice if there is any question whether particular documentary materials are record or nonrecord materials.
* * *
The responsibility to determine what documentary materials in the Department constitute records, as defined by 44 U.S.C. 3301, rests with the Secretary of Agriculture. Offices may ask for an initial determination from the Departmental Records Officer, in consultation with the Office of the General Counsel. * * *
Nonrecord Materials. Federally owned informational materials that do not meet the statutory definition of records (44 U.S.C. 3301) or that has been excluded from coverage by the definition. Excluded materials are extra copies of documents kept only for reference, stocks of publications and processed documents, and library or museum materials intended solely for reference or exhibit. May include:
· Reading file copies of correspondence.
· Tickler, follow-up, or suspense copies of correspondence.
· Identical duplicate copies of all documents maintained in the same file.
· Extra copies of printed or processed materials, official copies of which have
been retained for record purposes.
· Superseded manuals and other directives maintained outside the office that is
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responsible for retaining them.
· Materials documenting such peripheral activities of agencies as employee
welfare activities and charitable fund drives.
· Routing slips.
· Working papers.
· Drafts of reports and correspondence.
· Transmittal sheets.
· Blank forms.
· Transcribed stenographic materials.
· Processed or published materials that are received from other activities or
offices and that require no action and are not required for any kind of documentation
(the originating office or activity is required to maintain record copies).
· Catalogs, trade journals, and other publications or papers that are received
from Government agencies, commercial firms, or private institutions and that require
no action and are not part of a case upon which action is taken.
· Correspondence and other records of short term value that, after action has
been completed, have neither evidentiary nor informational value, such as requests
for publications and communications on hotel reservations.
· Reproduction materials, such as stencils, hectograph masters, and offset plates.
·
Information copies of correspondence and other papers on which no
documented administrative action is taken.
· Physical exhibits, artifacts, and material objects lacking documentary values.
Working drafts of an accident report kept within an SAIT would, therefore, probably not be a
“record”. The 2005 FS Accident Investigation Guide, page 69, directs that after an Accident Review Board, the chairperson must collect and destroy all copies of the draft accident report – consistent with the view that drafts are not “records”.
Regarding “field notes”, it may depend on what the notes are about – if the notes record factual
information or contain calculations and/or analysis they are probably “records” within the meaning of the statute, and the Forest Service retention schedule for accident reports in FSH 6209.11, 41 includes retaining “investigator’s notes” and “analysis”
Okay, way more than I bargained for at this point in the article above, so if you want to see the entire document and read the other six or more pages, go to one or both of these links.
( https://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:R__4RV0rE1AJ:https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/acc_invest_march2010/speakers/ResponsesMJohns.pdf+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us )
( https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/acc_invest_march2010/speakers/ResponsesMJohns.pdf. )
Fascinating stuff. Thanks for posting.
I wonder if ANY of that “came into play” when Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty became ( by his own admission in the Pfingston/Harwood podcasts ) and “uncooperative witness”” in the already-started investigation into his OWN near-fatality in Montana?
The ‘agency’ that the documentation above that would have needed to be the first to try and “compel testimony” would have been the City of Prescott ( Sic: City Attorney working with Prescott Wildland Division Chief ).
So you have to wonder… based on Pat McCarty’s OWN ‘public re-telling’ of what happened between him and the ‘investigator’ that came to his hospital room ( with Eric Marsh fully present in the room )… did McCarty’s refusal to answer certain questions actually rise to the level of anyone considering the “compelling” process outlined above… or not?
Or was someone ( multiple persons? ) actually able to SHUT DOWN that “Serious Accident Investigation” BEFORE anything that happened in McCarty’s hospital room with him, Eric Marsh and the investigator present even enter into the equation?
I have been unable to find ANY documentation whatsoever regarding this SERIOUS ( near-fatal ) accident involving McCarty and Granite Mountain in Montana.. Not for ANY year… or at ANY time…. on ANY fire.
Zero. Zip. Nada. Like it never happened.
It’s hard to imagine that McCarty was just “making this up” for Deborah Pfingston’s benefit given the level of detail he was supplying AND the fact that former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood was also ( publicly ) VERIFYING everything McCarty was sayiing and Harwood was adding his own level of detail regarding how they had to construct a makeshift “field gurney” to transport the seriously-injured McCarty…. and how they had to then construct the helicopter landing zone for the subsequent MedEvac.
It had to take more than one person ( like Marsh and/or Steinbrink and/or Willis ) to hide all evidence of this incident. Once there are HELICOPTERS and MEDEVACS and extended HOSPITAL STAYS involved… it would have taken any number of people to HIDE all of that “like it never happened”.
Basically… it would have taken “Inter-Agency” cooperation to “make it go away”.
Okay, way more than I bargained for at this point in the article above, so if you want to see the entire document and read the other six or more pages, go to this link.
( https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/acc_invest_march2010/speakers/ResponsesMJohns.pdf. )
( https://www.nifc.gov/PUBLICATIONS/acc_invest_march2010/speakers/ResponsesMJohns.pdf. )
I didn’t know Mike John’s died? He had a cabin down in your neck of the woods. Did you know him from there? He was always popular because of his background as a former hotshot, but I didn’t know him personally. Bummer.
I misspoke. I should have written, “Mike Johns was well liked and highly respected in part because he was a former hotshot.”
I am pretty sure the following seven statements are without a doubt the most stunning and stupid statements I have ever either read or heard anyone make pertaining to fighting wildfires in my entire life.
I have been struggling to rank them in order, but I can’t. They are all the MOST stunning and stupid thing I have ever either read or heard anyone make pertaining to fighting wildfire in my entire life.
I would like to know what fucking planet and from what alternative universe these stupid MOTHER FUCKERS came from and how long they will be visiting our solar system because I wish the fuck they would go back to wherever they came from.
Recommendations From Project Participants
“Probably the most important thing that can be done by managers is to plan ahead, to organize their fire-their managed fires especially-in a way that keeps firefighters out of high smoke concentration areas.” — DAROLD WARD
“I think the most important recommendation to reduce the risk of firefighters to smoke exposure is awareness training. . . There are ways in which they can reduce that exposure level and thus reduce their risk.” — ROGER OTTMAR
“I’d recommend that you . . . monitor your exposure in some way, . . listen to the alarm of your senses that are telling you this smoke is uncomfortable and avoid it.” –TIM REINHARDT
“A principle of toxicology is reduce your exposure to reduce your risk. So the more steps you take to cut back on smoke exposure, dust exposure, et cetera, the more you’re doing to reduce your risk of adverse health effects.” — TOM BOOZE
“I think we can do some real easily implementable things to reduce the incidence of upper respiratory infection in firefighters. I don’t think they’d have to cost an awful lot of money. I think we need to emphasize the importance of good physical fitness … good personal hygiene, and healthy behaviors.” –MARK VORE USDA FS
“I think basically if an individual firefighter is sensitive to the conditions that they’re experiencing, running nose, watering eyes, it looks smokey, then it’s probably not a place you want to be-take the common sense step of backing off a few feet, getting into a different location … using the natural conditions that are out there to put yourself in a better environment.” — DICK MANGAN, MTDC
“To reduce the risk of exposure I would first of all move forward to implement the recommendations of our conference. If we do that and if we monitor to see how we’re doing, I have a feeling that we will have largely removed most of the risk. If not, then we need to take additional steps and those additional steps could include the use of respirators. It could include totally different ways of fighting fire.” — BRIAN SHARKEY
I have heard the name Dick Mangan for decades. I just didn’t know he is one retarded MOTHER FUCKER! And I do apologize to all of the mentally handicapped people in this world because the retareded MOTHER FUCKER Fick Mangan is giving a lot of good people who are handicapped through no fault of their own. That stupid retarded MOTHER FUCKER and his peer group have chosen to be this way.
I hardly can stand to read the stupid things these stupid MOTHER FUCKERS wrote much less comment on them. So I really need to clean up that last paragraph.
“I have heard the name Dick Mangan for decades. I just didn’t know he is one retarded MOTHER FUCKER! And I do apologize to all of the mentally handicapped people in this world because the retarded MOTHER FUCKER Dick Mangan is giving a lot of good people who are handicapped through no fault of their own a bad name because that stupid retarded MOTHER FUCKER and his peer group have chosen to be this way.”
Can you understand why I am so concerned I will end up getting tased by Missoula PD if I drive up to see any of these stupid MOTHER FUCKERS to file my latest CA-2 and Ca-16?
Gary–that video you posted of the Ironwood fire fighters was quite informative–shows that work is intense and if those wildland fire fighters only get $15 an hour then something is terribly wrong. Looking at the situations they are dealing with and the extreme work required under the most extreme conditions then I would hope they would at least be about an underground miners scale of about $50 per hour. That was the last report I got about ten years ago when I visited that Oatman, Arizona Gold Mine owned by the Canadians.
The video also emphasizes the need for a well experienced crew boss and your mention of need for breathing protection. You can see that the retardant dropped was extremely orange as well–much prettier than the lighter oranges–but they all are replete with chemicals disastrous to health.
Like you, I manage and will until my lungs give completely out. But now I am certainly more aware of the need to avoid the polluted environs. It is of course impossible to avoid it completely but the old desert air is some better than downtown LA. You do watch the inversions that hold the smoked and polluted air down in the Rio Grande Valley around Las Cruces. I get that view fairly often when going to town from this more elevated area–and a lot of that comes up from Juarez, Mexico where standards and more than a million residents have no clue about clean air requirements.
For certain, the wild land fire fighter is destined for health problems in the older years and I can bet these lung, cancer and heart issues are off the chart when compared to the general population.
Just to be clear, the standard method to protect wild land firefighters from toxic smoke, full of everything that is found anywhere you go, including things like poison ivy and all kinds of cancer causing compounds was a bandanna that was provided by the firefighter and worn bandido style when I started as a wild land firefighter in 1974.
And today…the standard method to protect wild land firefighters from toxic smoke, full of everything that is found anywhere you go, including things like poison ivy and all kinds of cancer causing compounds is a bandanna that is provided by the firefighter and worn bandido style.
I don’t know if the conclusions reached by these stupid Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers were the conclusions the agencies and the NWCG ordered them to reach or not, but I do know the conclusions the REMF reached, were the very same conclusions the agencies and the NWCG wanted them to reach.
And people like Shawna Legarza are the problem and not the solution because she knows better but is doing NOTHING to make things better fir hotshots. Shawna Legarza only cares about Shawna Legarza. Shawna Kegarza and people like her are despicable human beings.
Okay…I’m going to move on now before I you know…have a stroke or hurt somebody like myself because I am still fantasizing about going to MEDC to file my new paperwork.
Oh…and one more thing. Have you ever heard of “no burn days” that are commonly mandated by the various state health agencies in communities throughout this country, although maybe not so much in places like New York City?
Do you know why those restrictions on commonly imposed that prohibit people from using their wood burning fireplaces or stoves? Yes…it’s because there are meteorological conditions such as an inversion layer that trap that unhealthy woodsmoke over those communities and they don’t want anyone to get sick from breathing any woodsmoke.
I guess those stupid REMF never heard of that phenomenon?
Missoula is exactly the kind of place where everyone is very familiar with “no burn days” because it’s cold there in the winter time, there are lots and lots of fireplaces and stoves in use in the area and it sits down in a valley that would be subject to inversion layers and either no wind or light winds on a routine basis.
I’m pretty sure all of those stupid and corrupt REMF are very familiar with the efforts state health authorities go to in order to protect them and their families from breathing harmful woodsmoke.
Just 12 days ago… on May 31, 2019…
Missoula County, Montana
Missoula Public Health
City-County Health Department
CURRENT AIR QUALITY
https://www.missoulacounty.us/government/health/health-department/home-environment/air-quality/current-air-quality
—————————————————————————–
Air Quality: Discussion – May 31, 2019 3:00 PM
The Canadian wildfire smoke is stubbornly clinging to the valley floors today causing air quality in Missoula County to become Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups. Air quality may still improve later this afternoon if the smoke starts to lift. The smoke may linger through the weekend, but we should be back to good air quality by Monday. This is weather dependent, so no guarantees on this.
When air quality is Unhealthy for Sensitive Groups, people with heart or lung disease, children and the elderly should limit prolonged outdoor exertion. Anyone experiencing symptoms of heart or lung disease associated with smoke exposure should contact their health care provider.
To reduce smoke exposure in a room or home, consider using a portable air cleaner to make a clean air space.
Check Montana’s Today’s Air website for near real-time air quality conditions around the state: Today’s Air.
Satellite images show smoke plume covers a large portion of western Canada and the northwestern part of the United States. Source: CIRA and NASA
————————————————————————-
From the same ‘Missoula City-County Public Health’ site as above…
NOTE: No mention of ‘bandanas’…. worn ‘bandido’ style, or any other way…
Woodstoves
——————————————————————-
Throughout Missoula County and Western Montana, the National 24-Hour Particulate Matter for particulate 2.5 microns in diameter and smaller (PM2.5) is threatened in the winter season when temperature inversions trap air pollution to the valley floors. The main source of winter pollution comes from residential woodstoves and fireplaces. To protect public health and keep particulate levels below the PM2.5 standard, it is crucial that wood stoves burn as cleanly as possible and that only the cleanest burning devices are installed. Over the years, several residential woodstove (solid fuel burning device) regulations have been implemented in the Missoula Air Stagnation Zone . Efforts by many individuals over the decades have greatly reduced wood smoke levels and improved Missoula’s air quality. Because smoke from woodstoves can cause elevated particulate levels through out the county, new woodstove installation regulations went into affect in 2010. Only clean burning devices will be permitted for installation through most of Missoula County.
Air Alerts and Warnings Woodstove Restrictions
When the Missoula City-County Health Department calls air pollution alerts and warnings, restriction on woodstove and fireplace use go into effect. It is the stove owner’s responsibility to check for alerts and warnings and follow emission restrictions.Visit the Air Alerts and Warnings page for more information.Background
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And, of course… there is THIS WARNING on the Missoula City-County Health Department page…
https://www.missoulacounty.us/government/health/health-department/home-environment/air-quality/air-pollution-alerts-and-warnings
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Why Air Alerts and Warnings are Called
Small particulate matter can burrow deep inside your lungs. Long-term exposures have been associated with problems such as reduced lung function, the development of chronic bronchitis and premature death. Short-term exposure to particulate (hours or days) can aggravate lung disease – causing asthma attacks and acute bronchitis – and may also increase susceptibility to respiratory infections.
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Thank you, I have been hoping you would jump in with some facts while I slap the bitch out of them with emotion, which can carry an argument only so far.
Make no mistake.
I saw your video ( and the quotes from the evil ones ).
Plenty of emotion on this end.
Are you slipping?
No “(non gender specific) ” this time?
No…I thought everyone knew was familiar enough with my shtick I coukd cut corners but you caught me.
Oh…and one more thing. It took me the whole damn day and until late at night to do four hours of work putting my Jeep hauler in storage on the day I shot that video.
And then the damn thing tried to get away from me but I used my leg as a chalk block…which didn’t work worth a damn, But the trailer did finally stop after it crashed into the back of my Jeep.
Anyway…I had to spend the night there after that happened and I took this photo of my leg the next morning.
I’m a little bit like Sonny. I still like to get hurt once in a while so I don’t forget what it feels like.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
Whoops…Chock Block
Oh…and one more thing. I am going to post some photos that show how my Jeep hauler almost killed me. It was a life altering event and I have now officially retired from doing stupid things. And if I coukd sell that damn Jeep for 1/3 of what I put into it…I would. Im too damn old for it, I go on Medicare in a couple of more weeks.
Here are the Criminally Stupid REMF by name.
DR.BRIAN SHARKEY IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DR. DAROLD WARD IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DICK MANGAN IS ONE STUPID REMF!
ROGER OTTMAR IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DR. TOM BOOZE IS ONE STUPID REMF!
TIM REINHARDT IS ONE STUPID REMF!
MARK VORE IS ONE STUPID REMF!
Understanding the Health Hazards of Smoke for Wildland FirefightersJan 10, 2006
Smoke has always been a problem for wildland firefighters. Research conducted in the 1960’s and 70’s on the health effects of smoke exposure was not conclusive. The 1987 fires in northern California and the 1988 Yellowstone fires raised serious concerns about the effects of forest fire smoke on the health of wildland firefighters. Atmospheric inversions concentrated the smoke and forced numbers of firefighters to seek medical attention for upper respiratory problems.
In 1989, the National Wildfire Coordinating Group began developing a comprehensive study plan for determining the immediate and long-term effects of exposure to forest fire smoke. The National Wildfire Coordinating Group asked the Missoula Technology and Development Center (MTDC) to coordinate the national effort. Following years of study and analysis, MTDC held a conference in 1997 to review progress in each area of the study plan, and to develop risk management recommendations. This brochure outlines project findings and recommendations for reducing exposure to the health hazards of smoke.
DR. DAROLD WARD and coworkers at the Fire Sciences Laboratory in Missoula conducted a series of laboratory and field studies to determine the components of vegetative smoke.
“Through the detailed chemical characterization of smoke, we find literally hundreds of compounds. . . many of these are in very, very low concentrations.” — DAROLD WARD
ROGER OTTMAR of the Forest Service’s Pacific Northwest Research Station and TIM REINHARDT, Radian Corporation, conducted studies of employee exposure at prescribed and wildland fires. The research team fitted firefighters with sampling packs to collect breathing-air samples. The samples were analyzed in the laboratory for respirable particulate, carbon monoxide, formaldehyde, acrolein and benzene, and other toxic compounds. The researchers found that exposure to particulate matter, carbon monoxide and aldehydes was considerably less than they would have expected. Fewer than 5% of the firefighters studied were exposed to concentrations that exceeded exposure levels deemed permissible by the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA).
Average exposures and exposure limits for hazards in smoke.
Hazard WL fire Rx fire OSHA/PEL
CO (ppm) 4.1 4.1 50.0*
RPM (mg/m3) 0.69 0.63 5.0
Form (ppm) 0.023 0.047 0.75
Acrol (ppm) 0.003 0.009 0.1
Benz (ppm) 0.016 0.016 1.0
*All limits are time-weighted averages (TWA) unless noted.
Where: WL fire = wildland fire and Rx fire = prescribed fire; CO = carbon monoxide; RPM = respirable particulate matter; Form = formaldehyde; Acrol = acrolein; and Benz = benzene. PEL = Permissible exposure limits.
“The firefighters have a health risk at both wildfires and prescribed fires. It is a risk that probably is less than some of the other risks that they have out on the fireline, such as falling snags and rolling rocks and getting hurt with their tools that they’re using, and also just driving on very narrow roads and hiking in very steep and rugged terrain.” — ROGER OTTMAR
DR. BRIAN SHARKEY of MTDC was one of many looking into the health effects of exposure to smoke. Short-term exposures cause eye irritation, coughs, and sore throats. Lung function tests show a small but significant decline in lung function that reverses when the person is no longer exposed. So the short-term effects tend to be transitory and reversible.
“Given the time to recover, the human lung has a remarkable ability to cleanse itself.” — BRIAN SHARKEY
Tiny hairlike projections called cilia sweep particles out of respiratory passages. Days or weeks of exposure may suppress ciliary action and immune function, and set the stage for particle buildup and bronchitis. Those with asthma and allergies may experience more problems with exposure. Researchers recommended a study to determine the long-term effects of exposure to smoke.
DR. TOM BOOZE, a toxicologist with Radian International, conducted a risk assessment to estimate the long-term health effects of exposure. He looked at two exposure assumptions, an average exposure and a worst case scenario that assumed very high exposure levels for 9.4 hours a day, 97 days a year for 25 years-a condition that exceeds any known exposure. Under this worst case scenario, the risk assessment showed some increase in cancer risk, and the noncancer health risks indicated the likelihood of respiratory irritation.
“What we found was for the average exposure assumptions, in other words most of the people, there doesn’t seem to be a problem.” — TOM BOOZE
Risk Management
In April 1997 MTDC convened a conference to review research findings and reach agreement on a list of recommendations for risk management, including training and tactics. monitoring , health maintenance, respiratory protection, medical surveillance, and research.
Training and Tactics: Wildfire
Include information on the health hazards of smoke in firefighter and fire manager courses.
Include smoke hazards at planning and briefing sessions and in fire behavior forcasts.
Use flank rather than head attack where appropriate.
Minimize mop-up when possible; avoid periods of inversion.
Use time and patience instead of water to put fires out; rely on burn-up instead of mop-up.
In heavy smoke, give up acres to gain control.
Locate camps and command posts in areas that are not prone to inversions.
Reduce dust by watering roads.
Use minimum impact suppression techniques (MIST).
Tactics: Prescribed Fire
Address smoke impacts in the Job Hazard Analysis.
Use equipment rather than people, when possible, in holding areas.
Design burn plans with ‘maximum allowable perimeter.’
Minimize mop-up whenever possible.
Change ignition times and firing patterns to minimize smoke impact on persons lighting the fires.
Adjust prescriptions, where possible, to reduce smoke by providing more complete combustion.
Rotate personnel out of heavy smoke areas.
Monitoring
Researchers studied the relationships among the pollutants in smoke.
“If carbon monoxide is highly correlated to these other things, which all our data shows that it is, why not just measure carbon monoxide?” — TIM REINHARDT
Use one carbon monoxide (CO) dosimeter per crew to monitor exposure to smoke.
Health Maintenance
Ensure that firefighters are properly trained and equipped for the conditions; provide for good rest and sleeping conditions.
Provide adequate nutrition and encourage fluid intake; provide supplements if needed.
Allow adequate time for recovery.
Follow recognized health maintenance procedures to avoid the spread of infection; limit close contact, wash hands before meals.
Don’t share canteens except in emergencies.
Emphasize the importance of good health, nutrition, and fitness in all training.
Respiratory Protection
Respirator studies were conducted in the laboratory and in the field.
“I would conclude that while respirators are feasible, they are imperfect. They don’t take care of carbon monoxide, they reduce work capacity, and they may not be necessary since our exposure levels are below 5% {of OSHA’s Permissible Exposure Limits} and could be getting lower if we follow the recommendations of our Health Hazards of Smoke Conference.” — BRIAN SHARKEY
Respiratory protection should be considered only if other controls, such as training, tactics, and monitoring, fail to protect worker health and safety.
If needed, develop, test, and seek National Institutes of Occupational Safety and Health (NIOSH) approval for a respirator designed specifically for the wildland firefighter.
Medical Surveillance and Research
A program of medical surveillance is needed to track firefighters’ health. In addition, health-related research should be considered to determine the long-term effects of exposure to smoke.
Recommendations From Project Participants
“Probably the most important thing that can be done by managers is to plan ahead, to organize their fire-their managed fires especially-in a way that keeps firefighters out of high smoke concentration areas.” — DAROLD WARD
“I think the most important recommendation to reduce the risk of firefighters to smoke exposure is awareness training. . . There are ways in which they can reduce that exposure level and thus reduce their risk.” — ROGER OTTMAR
“I’d recommend that you . . . monitor your exposure in some way, . . listen to the alarm of your senses that are telling you this smoke is uncomfortable and avoid it.” –TIM REINHARDT
“A principle of toxicology is reduce your exposure to reduce your risk. So the more steps you take to cut back on smoke exposure, dust exposure, et cetera, the more you’re doing to reduce your risk of adverse health effects.” — TOM BOOZE
“I think we can do some real easily implementable things to reduce the incidence of upper respiratory infection in firefighters. I don’t think they’d have to cost an awful lot of money. I think we need to emphasize the importance of good physical fitness … good personal hygiene, and healthy behaviors.” –MARK VORE USDA FS
“I think basically if an individual firefighter is sensitive to the conditions that they’re experiencing, running nose, watering eyes, it looks smokey, then it’s probably not a place you want to be-take the common sense step of backing off a few feet, getting into a different location … using the natural conditions that are out there to put yourself in a better environment.” — DICK MANGAN, MTDC
“To reduce the risk of exposure I would first of all move forward to implement the recommendations of our conference. If we do that and if we monitor to see how we’re doing, I have a feeling that we will have largely removed most of the risk. If not, then we need to take additional steps and those additional steps could include the use of respirators. It could include totally different ways of fighting fire.” — BRIAN SHARKEY
More Information
Additional single copies of this document may be ordered from:
USDA Forest Service
Missoula Technology and Development Center
Building 1, Fort Missoula
Missoula, MT 59804-7294
Phone: 406-329-3900
Fax: 406-329-3719
E-mail: [email protected]
For additional technical information, contact Brian Sharkey at the address above.
Phone: (406) 329-3989
Fax: (406) 329-3719
E-mail: [email protected]
Copies of Health Hazards of Smoke: Recommendations of the Consensus Conference (NFES 2557, est. $1) and the video Health Hazards of Smoke (NFES 2560, est. $5) may be ordered from the National Interagency Fire Center, ATTN: Great Basin Cache Supply Office, 3833 S. Development Ave., Boise, ID 83705. Orders may be mailed or faxed (208-387-5573). No phone orders.
The only way the irresponsible decisions made by these very stupid Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers make any sense is if they don’t consider people human beings and view them only as statistics.
https://www.firerescue1.com/fire-products/fire-breathing-apparatus/air-products/articles/15007-Understanding-the-Health-Hazards-of-Smoke-for-Wildland-Firefighters/
This is the direct link to view some the ridiculous things these very stupid Rear Echelon Mother Fuckers wrote.
DR.BRIAN SHARKEY IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DR. DAROLD WARD IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DICK MANGAN IS ONE STUPID REMF!
ROGER OTTMAR IS ONE STUPID REMF!
DR. TOM BOOZE IS ONE STUPID REMF!
TIM REINHARDT IS ONE STUPID REMF!
MARK VORE IS ONE STUPID REMF!
Thanks Gary this is very strong information you have presented. These men are not stupid, just coy. They know the effects of these chemicals, they also did not mention retardant or any of the chemicals involved there. They know their politics and how to keep their jobs and friends happy–do not rock the boat with the truth–fire fighters are hard enough to find and you do not want to scare them away nor do you want the pay scale to jump up too much–all that would make the politicians unhappy and upset their peers that keep saying that smoke is not an issue. Academia if fraught with political politeness and cronyism as much as political life.
They know that benzene is highly toxic in small amounts and equals or surpasses the carcinogenic effects of Uranium. However Plutonium has just about everything beat where even a molecule of that shit entering the lungs is a guaranteed cancer. Plutonium has been handled much like the retardant where it was a component in many of the bombs tested as well as sent up in satellites with as much as 17 pounds aboard. Canada had a downed one that caused much consternation since it crashed and the plutonium spread about the atmosphere. Scientists know these things but in the name of progress and protection of the country much is kept under wraps.
That video, since my hearing is so bad, I at first wonder if that was Gary after his many years as a fie fighter. Yes it is heart rending to see that mans suffering and the causes behind it. It is an eye opener to where these chemicals lead.
As you can see they avoided retardant altogether–damn them for playing down the true effects of these chemicals on the men. Benzene is only a small part of the chemicals involved in the destruction of health. Nothing is mentioned concerning ammonium nitrates and phosphates used to create cyanide by applying the slurry to burning. Cyanide is also a carcinogenic in small doses at just above 6ppm in the air according to tests run on rats. Nothing is brought up about the hidden chemicals within the slurry. Of 500,000 gallons dropped around Yarnell that would amount to 50,000 gallons if you take the average of between 5 and 15 percent hidden chemicals. What the hell was in those 50,000 gallons dropped around the Yarnellites on 2015 and another huge amount in 2013? And they should know that cilia are not replaced but lung tissue once destroyed is gone–just that we can live with a quarter of a lung but in a miserable state as we saw in the video Gary posted.
You need only look at the history of health destruction and death count of those at Yarnell after the two wild fires of 2015 and 2013 to know something is wrong with the men Gary labels as Stupid–Educated Idiots might be a better term but I would believe they really know but are brain fogged by thier academia and the system.
Joy mentioned Zack Ashoor and I have a few times on IM. He was actually a hero of sorts–working hard to prefect a small protable oxygen system that could be small enough for a wild land fie fighter to have handy. At 29 he hiked with me up that hill to where the men went down. At that time it was restricted to go to where the men had died–but he said I don’t give a damn, I will stand before any judge –those were my friends, I am going down to pay my respects. He had cried in a bar when he saw their demise on the news–bars have big TV’s in Phoenix–I know I have been in a few there. So we went down and he paid his respects.
Well I now pay my respects to Zack–he passed within a few months after the hike and I am certain after he knew the route he had made more hikes with other friends since he was a part of a State organization working on issues related to Firemen’s lung issues. He had asthma by the way and was using a breathing device to make that climb as we went up.
So yes it is a righteous anger for the nonchalance of these yo yo types.
https://www.bunkerfuneral.com/obituaries/zack-ashoor/
Zack Ashoor
12/18/1984 – 03/15/2014
Zack Ashoor passed away March 15, 2014. A celebration of his life will be Saturday, March 22, 2014 from 11:30 AM – 2:00 PM at Bunker’s Garden Chapel, 33 N. Centennial Way, Mesa, AZ 85201. For more information, please go to http://www.zackashoor.com/. In lieu of flowers, please consider donating to GiveForward at https://www.giveforward.com/fundraiser/rh64/in-memory-of-zack-ashoor.
Sonny and My Hero- Zack Ashoor
Wake Up Politicians!
Thank you Sonny for your kind and concerned thoughts. But I have learned how to manage my condition and still live a good life. And just remember, IF I COULD, I WOULD DO IT ALL OVER AGAIN EXCEPT I WOULD TRY HARDER TO GET IT RIGHT NEXT TIME BECAUSE THE RIDE WAS WORTH THE PRICE OF ADMISSION.
But now, it doesn’t have to be that way for others because cheap, easy to use, lightweight, and 100% effective respirators were available in my day for about $25.00 from the Forestry Supply catalog in the District Office that I paid for myself once I realized what had happened to me and how I could make it better for myself. Unfortunately, the damage was done and rather than reverse itself, it actually got worse every year for the last 40 years.
These STUPUD REAR ECHELON MOTHER AND FATHER FUCKERS CAN FIX IT for those young WLF who are breathing toxic smoke now. Even if they don’t end up like me because of unknown factors, why take the risk? I can tell you I was much happier and better off simple in terms of physical comfort once I started wearing that respirator except when I was engaged in strenuous activity.
Those things can be worn almost all of the time while mopping up and they are 100% effective and during mop up operations is when WLF are exposed to the MOST DAMAGING TOXIC SMOKE.
It is probably worse now because of the HYBRID CONDITIONS that are forcing wild land firefighters into residential neighborhoods which was very rare in my day except for in Southern California.
But fuck me…just look at how bad it is now! If they are going to treat WLF like HYBRIDS, get them some fucking Scott Air Packs or whatever the fuck those pussy Round Hats wear.
Or at least a cheap, easy to use, lightweight and 100% effective passive respirator. But like I said, they have to make them required PPE otherwise WLF won’t wear them even during heavy mop up because it is such a macho curious and confused culture, they wouldn’t even wear hard hats if tye didn’t have to. Bunch of fuckin’ cowboys who still ride hard for their brand and shoot from the hip.
I think this is the best hotshot video ever. To bad I think they got disbanded because of liability after that stupid, arrogant, and deeply flawed Eric Marsh really screwed the pooch one last time in a big way and killed his crew.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4B0tOb9BwVo
These guys were bad to the bone! And I hope they still are…somewhere.
Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency
Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest,
Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency
Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired
Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office
of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, &
Phoenix, AZ, 2.0)— what song did you add to the”big lie” page?
Oh…it’s not coming through on some computers screens for some reason. It comes through great on my PC, but not on my IPAD. So anyway…I worked on it this afternoon and tried to fix that glitch with no real luck so I added the title and an “on” x that is about where you should be seeing the Windows Media on button. Anyway, try clicking on that X. Damn infernal machines!
It’s “Goodby Horses” by Q Lazzarus, as both a nod and homage to the love that both Eric Marsh and the former Mrs, Eric Marsh shared for their horses.
That…and the fact that I think he was fuckin’ crazy and she is right behind him, or maybe even in front of where he as you know…WHEN HE KILLED HIS HOTSHOT CREW BY BEING A TERMINAL FUCK UP.
I’m rebuilding my entire website, but that will take awhile. Thanks for noticing.
http://ourfiregods.com/thebiglie.html
“You told me, I see you rise
But, it always falls
I see you come, I see you go
You say, “All things pass into the night”
And I say, “Oh no sir I must say you’re wrong
I must disagree, oh no sir, I must say you’re wrong”
Won’t you listen to me
You told me, I’ve seen it all before
Been there, I’ve seen my hopes and dreams
A lying on the ground
I’ve seen the sky just begin to fall
And you say, “All things pass into the night”
And I say, “Oh no sir, I must say you’re wrong
I must disagree, oh no sir, I must say you’re wrong”
Won’t you listen to me
Good-bye horses I’m flying over you
Good-bye horses I’m flying over you”
I added the black strip across her eyes because I can’t stand to look at her smug face while I am working because I get sick to my stomach and I can’t even call in sick because, you know…I’m retired.
No sick days, no vacation days, no holidays and every day is a Saturday, so none of them are special. I hate retirement.
I really do wish they would have just led me out into the middle of a field and shot me in the fuckin’ head instead of retiring me.
What about your Special Lady Friend, wouldn’t she miss you
Well…maybe? Although I have been doing my best to talk her into letting come down to Santa Barbara and take her out to dinner to talk about the good ole days, but so far…no luck.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved7.html
I went back to my little Black Book but there was only still two names in it and one of them has been permanently crossed out.
Maybe I should have had you tell me more about the blond from Russia you met getting off the airplane whose date had ditched her from?
That’s my smug Glen Campbell smirk. I don’t why so many people think I was arrogant? Well…not anymore.
Although i have a strict rule well…it’s actually more if a guideline to only date women in the future who can qualify for senior citizen discounts at the movie theater and early bird specials at participating restaurants because they would be cheaper to date.
The Russian babe in the sandals sounded like she would be disqualified right out of the starting gate…am I right?
If not…was that a U.S. telephone number you had for her?
Oh…and one more thing. What size of Ugg boots do you think she wears?
Does This Look Okay To You? You stupid motherfucking Rear Echelon Motherfuckers?
http://ourfiregods.com/StupidREMF.html
Whoops…my potty mouth got the best of me…again.
I am so very sorry Gary
when I watch your video
I can hear it and “feel” it…so sorry.
That is so wrong…
Sonny and I use to walk THE DISTANCE and we both are in similar situations as you display in the video
Sonny – watch the video and talk about Zack Ashoor to Gary
the video breaks my heart on Gary
Firefighters protect life and property on a daily basis but I think transparency needs to happen so noone has to go through what Gary is facing…
I am angry
and I want to help you when you are not feeling up to doing the paperwork or need a place to crash – please note Sonny even offered you a place-
Their needs to be an emphasis on the importance of lung and heart health for firefighters and let us get some strategies for keeping them healthy…Gary, what Sonny and I have seen in this–
IT’S POLITICS AND IT’S PERSONAL…
whatever happened to the Bill 72?
thank you for telling your story and showing that video of the realism…
God Bless you
Don’t feel sorry for me or angry about my situation because I am lucky, everyone should be sorry and angry about the wild land firefighters who are currently being exposed to the same toxic conditions I was except for providing and wearing their own BANDANA! Which obviously don’t help very much!
Reading what I write about haveing a problem is different from SEEING and HEARING what my problem is…right?
It is not a pity sorry Gary just after all your service years I am sorry your retirement years are facing this path.
I am angry that Zack Ashoor dying so young…when his goal in life was to help firefighters.
You are blessed Gary- You lived a real good life and all yet no way did I think your retirement years would be where you are and at anytime Sonny and I are there for you sir. We both have bad hearing so we never call you but we often wish you all the best…
There was a Bandana some FF made that was neat at the Academy that had a sewn in layer of that same fabric the respiratory mask has but he can look cool with his bandana still
SEEING is necessary for the Politicians, Gary
as they are at their luncheon conferences you should make a video of any FFs you know in same spot…I mean as many people died in our Community and all of us that are not well…it sucks…
Well…at least I still have my good looks and engaging personality. 🙂
I lived the young man’s dream of excitement & high adventure. Looking back at all those fires, it was amazing and I wouldn’t trade it for anything. (Except Stanza, fuck Stanza) I always was 1st in line to volunteer to go – the harder the assignment the better.
After 3 burnovers ( none of which were properly investigated despite me asking for it), my parting gift is a tentative diagnosis of “chronic lung disease.”
I haven’t followed up with a specialist because I don’t want to hear what they’re probably going to say. Some days I can’t wash my truck without taking breaks. My supervisor knows and we make work arounds on the bad days. Just gotta make it 10 more years for my family.
I really, really didn’t want to make this post.
Woodsman, my story as well–mine after the many hikes through the retardant zones at Yarnell. Both Joy and I were able to do long hikes before our many hikes to the two track. Certain I was somewhat lung depress from many years of mining but the lung power I had left was sufficient until we did those hikes.
It is quite apparent that the retardant affects the older people and with the firemen it is after they reach retirement age that the problems begin to set in.
Uranium miners get $250,000 bonus if they worked just so many units which amounts to about two years underground. I qualify except you had to work before 1973–part of my time was 1965 but the rest was after 73 until I was hurt in a mine cave in of August, 1979. I have plenty time to qualify but it does not count since enough was not before 1973.
Yet the point is if Uranium Miners are qualified to get this help for medical expenses or whatever to enrich their lives for their life saving work as wild land fire fighters or other types of fire fighting–then it follows that A fire figher should also qualify for that benefit. A miner must have cancer, COPD, or some other related to the radiation exposure and I can see that similar legislation should be enacted for the Firefighter.
My respects for your good work Woodsman. I regret to hear your lung issues–and I know that Gary has them as well and I suspect it is a very common situation among those that were exposed to the smoke and retardant.
Thank you for sharing Woodsman
Sorry to hear the news-
Thank you, Sonny & Joy. I appreciate you both.
Or do you think wild land firefighters who are working in that environment should wear inexpensive, easy to use, and 100% effective respirators whenever possible? And it would be possible to wear them most of the time during mop up operations at a minimum and that is when firefighters are exposed to the most toxic smoke.
If you don’t provide the respirators and require them to be worn, wild land firefighters won’t wear them. The WLF culture is so macho curious and confused, they wouldn’t even wear hard hats if they weren’t required PPE you stupid fucks.
I think as a man it is weird to have that mask on for some so bandanas with proper sewn in material behind it could help…
PPE is RTS’s stance in life, eh?
I found it almost impossible to maintain a respirator working at any hard job involving such things as mining, digging, timber falling, and such. The damn thing falls of, you cant get enough wind though it, you sweat and it overheats your face, and for jobs that require hard manual labor my own experience was to say if I want to get this job done, it can’t happen with that damn thing in the way. Yet it is an essential if you want your lungs and life intact in later years.
Joy and I wore rags over our faces–we looked to be of the black races after many of those first hikes–yet we did not know how much we were destroying our lung capacity. It has proven we were ignorant for not knowing how bad this soot and smoke with retardant residue is. Well the retardant and smoke tragedies at Yarnelll, like Marsh has given us good lessons about how things must be to maintain our lives. It only takes common sense and a look at how things turn out to realize how dangerous things can be–and yes you have had plenty of doctors with 9 years education stand up and lie though their shiney teeth that cigarette smoking is not dangerous to your health–so the educated idiots that Gary presented are no exception.
https://photos.app.goo.gl/asb6KnYy6ZW4LzUe8
photo of Sonny wearing his mask when we hiked up there the first few months because Safety always mattered to us both…
https://photos.app.goo.gl/wHWSDMbSdFmSmBaQ9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/7zmgB2uD2Qsu5DrD6
and forever I will not understand the actions that took my wildlife family
I know it is what firefighters do
the boxes
the houses are just trees with doors
but you changed my life that weekend that I will never get back…I had the most unique bond with the animals and I hurt so deep to this day on that topic.
Sonny and others have eye-witnessed that special bond to
So sad.
Breaks me up
https://photos.app.goo.gl/BBfe9kUsngfcvWVZA
do you still have that shirt Sonny?
https://poshmark.com/listing/Positivitees-sz-XL-beer-group-therapy-blue-tee-5c7e02307386bccc54fc867c?ad_partner=google&campaign_id=1840610133&enable_guest_buy_flow=true&g_network=g&gcid=345791181500&gclid=Cj0KCQjwxYLoBRCxARIsAEf16-tMGWcS-2SBD-zoToBwRF5CD8ZXU6lMM6j9ppMJbUCNug3CSg_N04UaApWTEALw_wcB&gdid=c&ggid=69236823586&gskid=pla-869448409672&l_con=PREOWNED%2FUSED&utm_campaign=1840610133&utm_source=gdm
this was the sign in Sonny’s kitchen:
https://images.search.yahoo.com/search/images?p=ben+franklin+beer+quote&fr=mcafee&imgurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2FShMAAOSw7z1aFMZT%2Fs-l300.jpg#id=8&iurl=https%3A%2F%2Fi.ebayimg.com%2Fimages%2Fg%2FShMAAOSw7z1aFMZT%2Fs-l300.jpg&action=click
I am thinking there is a lot of truths to that
My dad said he drank Budweiser because Bud said it made him wiser
as I told my pops “are you a couple cans short of a sick pack?”
I never was a drinker but a hot toddy to help my throat may just help-
Cheers and Salute to all of us who suffer the after effects of the Fre Industry- a system that needs to make some changes…
You are mostly wrong Sonny, but you are partly right that respirators can’t be worn all of the time, especially during physical labor or heavy exertion.
But I would like for everyone to please try hard and focus on what I am telling you from wearing a respirator for 7 years as a hotshot. I know what the fuck I am talking about.
Respirators ARE 100% effective and can be easily worn and managed during MOP OPERATIONS and even during some other times.
While WLF are mopping up, they are standing in the same place for long periods of time working in a slow, rhythmic and methodical way as they mix the hot material with either dirt or water to render it safe and no longer a threat to cause a re-burn as they slowly move to new hot areas. That is when most WLF are exposed to the most toxic smoke for the longest periods of time.
Please look at my fucking photos, they prove to everyone that what I am saying is 100% ACCURATE.
Wildland firefighters aren’t digging a mine while they are mopping up a fire. There arent any comparisons that you can make Sonny that are either accurate or helpful. So…please don’t try and CONFUSE PEOPLE in the process.
OMGosh…I have been reviewing Chapter XX today and Bob P. is really a feisty guy! But…I still love the old guy like he is a brother from another mother.
http://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xx-here/
Charlie says
JUNE 8, 2019 AT 7:06 PM
I had written an email to Joy but I thought it appropriate to share here as well –she with RTS are on to the fire and why the men were killed–new evidence will be coming out on Marsh–as I am reminded–you better watch what you write up to get yourself to become a boss when you are not qualified. The records remain and if you lied then it will come back to haunt you —especially should 18 men under your command be killed by your erroneous methods.
my reply:
I know for years I have gathered and collected
and yes it is true for the “hope” that true lessons learned can be to lessen the fact this happens to another human being –
I will be showing a multitude of areas and some areas is going to be very hard
yet I know that one day certain people will be relieved I finally placed it out…it has always been the right thing to do
but I, much like the mother, Ms Pfingston was hoping the first hand people would
but I will be the one to do it…
I did give all the ample time to do it…
but yeah my apologies upfront that the content that is going to be brought forward of Marsh may offend or be controversial to some –
and it is the right thing to do.
I have to show the leaders on the YHFire in the pure form so that true lessons can be learned –
SO many people have reached out to me thanking me and I want you to know I have quit many times because I do have an empathetic side –
yet how can people learn if the fire was never told in its pure form. Again, there will be a disclaimer on the Summer’s posts I do…and as well when I am in D.C.
If the people who have kept the data hidden feel overwhelmed – please reach me so we can help you get your account out and ease the journey best way we can.
This is how it all began was my blog gave the world another place to come to me direct to tell their accounts.
You Matter!
You (more than a few) have been very brave in telling your story…Thank you.
Now it is time to get it out-
I was hoping Sonny did not mention MARSH until late month
yet Sonny and I live a free and pure way
and so it was eating on him
eager to hear the news…
I get it.
so yes for you Sonny I am working hard on it to get that area out before D.C.
yet it will be formatted that you must directly email me your email to be able to get access to the profile
so I have a tracking system of who originally requested but I know one cannot download the data but anyone can take pics or screenshot or snipping tool so I know it will eventually reach the world
but the new data is set on private to ensure anyone who receives it and passes it on must give courtesy credit
and at no time is my data where it is used in future articles or books so they make profits…I do not grant that permission if the person using the data makes a profit—you should have done your own fact checking…
I worked hard and direct to “fact check” all the data before placing it out
especially when it involved one of the most vocal who always felt I did not like the GMHS- in fact I like them so much if their name ever becomes available I will purchase it along with the original building and ensure a museum is done right for them for the mens’ families and friends who have told me their disgusts of how it was given to a plumbing place…
I have a hard time with the City of Prescott after the rest is released
the right thing to do is they need to donate a lot
why they never purchased that Crew 7 Station
vs making the loved ones do a fundraiser and it sits on the City’s page to promote yet they should be the largest donation in my way of thinking…
Yeah Sonny- really myself did not want to see Marsh’s name until late month especially on IM but I am honorable enough to get the data out – Too many deserve it. I just do not want drifting authors still waiting for a book to make to use the material in any way…guess that was one reason I held on to it and the other I just did not want to be the one…I paid a lot of funds in this fact checking process so it just was always like ahh….
https://flic.kr/p/2g9uxTV
Here you go Sonny- I will add your email so you can see the entire profile of Prescott Fire Department Granite Mountain Hotshots (PFD GMHS) ERIC SHANE MARSH. (ESM) on Flickr.
Everyone else go to https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/ and reach me there to add your legitimate email address with Full Name as a permitted invite.
The entire profile is now in the hands of three people –
I give those three full permission to use the data as they see fit.
Prayers to the all leaders of the WIldland Fire Industry-
I’m in Scottsdale
Not near PC
there is two pending invite add ons
I cannot add them until on thr PC
Sonny…just click on arrow if you accepted invite then click on then to get to next page click on arrow…
Just got to my location…need sleep…appt is at 9am.
Good night
OK thanks Joy. I will attempt again later with the new instructions.
Something I am sure you have on your blog would be a photo of the very site the men died taken the very morning before they died that afternoon. I know when we hiked back after the fire it looked like a moonscape. The photo you took was where we argued a bit about which way to get to the fire–I wanted to go straight up the mountain to the two track just as they would later that day come down–but you argued that since you had hiked those Weavers for so many years you had a better idea of the route to take. So I agreed and followed.
The point is that photo is invaluable since no one would have known or had proof of what they would actually encounter later that day if you had not taken that photo. It is one reference to validates all we say about the denseness of the almost impassable manzanita mixed with cat claw and other vegetation. I would liken it to going through a jungle without a machete since a machete would be useless in that manzanita. And people who believe you can go through there with a chain saw ought to know that yes you can cut through brush but it is a tedious and slow advance that way cutting and clearing brush to force a way through.
So yes, if you do any presentations about that Marsh decision be sure to show that photograph and the actual bear wallow Marsh had committed his men to become entangled within.
if you already peaked Sonny-
I am currently adding another 100 photos on ERIC SHANE MARSH file from my ArizonaStateForestryBillBoydandFOIAHere9818645pm\ADOSH YHF Public Records 1-16-14\ADOSH Yarnell Fire Investigation\City of Prescott Fire – GMHS\Training Records
so you can see all the areas and who gave me what
it uploaded and is ready to view and everyone have been given their invite along with disclaimer on front page of https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/ and all have been for “personal use” so there should be no publications public of the information for noone was granted permission to share or make it public.
I want to ensure the loved ones of this man I have done my best to keep it tracked and everyone has had a genuine “peak in” –
just added more to ERIC SHANE MARSH from this Public Records Request:
ArizonaStateForestryBillBoydFOIAHere9818645pm\ADOSH YHF Public Records 1-16-14\ADOSH Yarnell Fire Investigation\City of Prescott Fire – GMHS
I am fading
Long week– good night
still on look out for 245 owner, sir.
Yet ran into more Eric documents so figured better place that on there.
Am I the only one who thinks Joy looks a little bit like “The Bride Of Satan” on her home page? I mean…she looks really good, just a little bit…scary.
yeah I am frightening ugly
what’s your point
but not affiliation to Satan
but yep with the flames in background
right
You would know what Satan’s bride looks like?
Oh yeah…me…duh
I was gonna pick on you but on the hunt for some John Truett documents (staying focused) so you are spared
I could roast you good..
really good…but do not want to hit a sensitive nerve if you still got any…
Oh…and one more thing. I think Joy is a beautiful woman inside and out. So…
And as far as beautiful goes, Sonny…not so much! RTS ultimate macho man…yes, beautiful…no.
Now RTS on the other hand….
Whoops
And as far as beautiful goes, Sonny…not so much! Ultimate macho man…yes, beautiful…no.
Oh…and the flames are scary…not you. Duh….
I bet that scar left by that shotgun blast is something to see…on both sides. But…especially on the front where a lot of your insides ended up on your outsides.
Send me a photo and I will post it on my website.
And I am going to post some photos that shows how my car hauler almost killed me. It was a life changing event and I have now officially retired from doing stupid things. And I wish I could sell my Jeep for 1/3 of what I put into it and I would.
https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/11/03/How-Many-Lives-Does-One-Man-Have-I-Always-Thought-It-Was-Two-The-Second-One-Began-When-One-Realized-They-Only-Have-One-Life-Not-For-Tex-Harold-Eldon-Gilligan-Sonny-This-Is-His-Medical-Status-Update-Post-Tex-Being-On-The-Weaver-Mountains-June-30-2013-Was-Very-Important-To-The-Wildland-Fire-Industry-Too-Many-Times-He-Has-Been-Thanked-For-His-Fire-Knowledge-Experience-Let-This-Post-Honor-The-Fallen-By-Sharing-About-Sonny-Who-Is-On-A-Road-To-Recovery-
there is the xray at the end of this link of Sonny-
when I come across the video- I can email it.
Certainly Marsh is center stage concerning the deaths of his crew. How he got to be crew boss and any information related to the way he preformed his duties is relevant and begs to be made public. To my way of thinking, it was sad that he was allowed to take on a job he was not qualified to do and proved it to the best of his ability. So I know that the system is flawed when people that are a danger to the lives of their subordinates are allowed to attain those positions. If anything Marsh had achieved it would be an example that men that are prone to undue and needless risk taking have no business being in the wild land fire fighting profession–especially should they be in a supervisory position where lives of young heroes are at their mercy.
To loose a love one, especially a child even if he is a young man is a horror story that never goes away. There are times I still break down from the loss of my own son, a young man at 29 with a great future ahead of him. I will always be proud of how he was going though life–taking on work he loved to do. It was no easy job as an underwater welder, but even after he had gotten severely injured in his work he was going on with life toward a degree in Chemical Engineering at the University of Arizona in Phoenix. I will visit his grave when I go to Deming in a few days and see his tombstone that my daughter Melissa had lovenly made with a diver on it
So yes it is extremely important for the loved ones to know any facts related to the loss of their loved ones and how that came about. There is so much pain to live but we who have suffered the loss of a loved one must know the facts so we can manage our pain.
The Yarnell tragedy was no God thing, nor was it an accident. It was a preventable death incident that had reasons behind it. Of course many in the Fire Industry did not want their reputations tainted nor did they want to face the changes that need to be made. The cover up maintains the inertia of change and keeps up the hero image of a few who do not deserve that image. I would say that any superintendent who knowingly breaks every rule concerning fire safety and kills his crew doing so does not deserve the title. You can’t persecute dead men since they have died with those they killed. But you can learn from their mistakes and change hiring practices and background checks where those are lax. To put men in charge of lives should require extreme care and only go to those that meet the standards..
Marsh was a case, but he is only a part of the system. I am not sure he even knew the safety standards–Donut worked under him for three seasons I believe yet knew nothing of safety proceedures other than he though they were hillbilly. He barely was spared himself, yet all these examples of the GMHS show how things need to be revamped. And so far about the only thing Donut has given us is how a fire fighter should not fight fires and how to withhold information that is pertinent to the loved ones and to the safety of wild land fire fighters.
And as I have told Joy, if you do not do the right thing and tell what you know relevant to this investigation of 19 deaths, then it will come back and bite you–karma is a given in this life. It has happened to me when I once held back information because it was a family member and my Mother had urged me to keep what I had learned to myself. Peer pressure is one thing, but family pressure is even harder. So in the Yarnell incident, it is an absolute necessity to inform people of the truth.
Someone in Prescott knew that the truth had to go out–why the complete documents went out to some eventhough someone there withheld from Adosh the full document. There are always some good eggs in the basket even where the system reeks with cronyism.
The word should have been Prosecute on that post reply to Joy–of course that would never happen in the crony system set up at Prescott even if Marsh and Steed had survived.
I commend Joy and others for coming out with what has been discovered and uncovered — if you are learning things related to the deaths of the 19 and withholding it, you should know that Dr. Karma will visit you somewhere, sometime and bust your ass whether you believe that or not. The human psyche is set up that way and even psychopaths are not exempt.
https://youtu.be/pDPdRYF7hTQ
Sharing this video..hope it touches you as it did me
Yes, I saw and that was great to see how some can preform despite their handicaps.
My saying nothing to it, just do it works pretty well when the going gets tough.
I have been watching a UFO that appears same spot every night South East over and perhaps just a bit beyond Juarez/El Paso. Maybe feds keeping an eye on the millions of migrants or maybe aliens watching the same. It is red on bottom, white in the middle and green on top.
Technology is so advanced from when I was a child. Well we never grew up with phones since we lived much of our life as would a prospector. Dad never saw the necessity for a phone-but technology has changed the game of life in a good way but also in a dangerous way as well. Privacy is out the window and now we can know just about everything about anyone and anything by just plugging into one of these computer machines.
For sure the State of Arizona and the Forest Service have come to a point that the internet is their staunch enemy. They can no longer easily cover up major crimes or faulty practices they are guilty of such as the Yarnell sacrifice of so many young wild land fire fighters. Their methods and culpability are exposed–changes are due since lives are important and killing of those men can not be covered up by religious mantra or prolonged hero worship.
Religions are so many–some are deadly to join-most are mass cons. Too many people find an easy way to control others by the religious BS. And yes, Jim Jones killed 900 followers, and an Arab of Islamic belief can wind up being a murderer but thinking himself a martyr by suicide bombing or any other means to kill an infidel. That belief is similar to a Kamikaze of WW11 –all promises of things in the blue sky.
The Willis idea that God had other plans for these men. They took to wild land fire fighting as though they were fighting an enemy on the level of an actual war battle. Marsh might have had them believing that God would take care of them in any situation and if they did get killed, as Willis put it, God had other plans for them. Well they had no respect for safety rules and the men certainly were obedient according to the requirement that the wild land fire fighter must strictly obey orders on a daily basis. Religions can be dangerous- the GMHS crew were the suicide martyrs of wild land fire fighting operations.
I had written an email to Joy but I thought it appropriate to share here as well –she with RTS are on to the fire and why the men were killed–new evidence will be coming out on Marsh–as I am reminded–you better watch what you write up to get yourself to become a boss when you are not qualified. The records remain and if you lied then it will come back to haunt you —especially should 18 men under your command be killed by your erroneous methods.
So to Joy:
So true! Yes, they asked 8 but took $630 delivered–I put in a battery and it started right up. This 86 Nissan had been setting so long the tires rotted. plate dates 2007..But I can fix it –has a carburator, coils and old stuff–161,000 miles so lot of time left on it and no rust at all–had to be a NM truck. I had been looking for a 4 cyll old 4×4 and this one I had a Datsun brand new on just a year earlier back in 1985–damn thing would plow snow and keep going–I traded it off but never had a better truck for scouting the hills. They go where many 4×4 wont since they are very light weight. Not a king cab, but I like it well enough to put it into top shape. My Ford 4×4 is a gas hog–12 mpg but it is so heavy duty I pulled that heavy shed no problem. It is in my front yard not so I still have to dig holes to lower the posts into.
Yes, you can bet so many of those guys write themselves up so they get better jobs. That happens a lot where scammers know how to lay out a line like they are qualified for shit they are worthless at. One thing you could not do that as a miner–they would know in a few hours if you knew your shit or not. Same with logging as a faller–you are known the first day either you are or you ain’t. See, in mining the bosses drew about $7 per hour while us miners were making $20 and more an hour. A boss was easy to find there but miners were hard to come by. But in forest work it is different. The system pays by G numbers so a hard working fire fighter is on the bottom rung of the food chain. Government jobs in mining never worked so Government turned it over to private companies. I mean how much education do you need to learn fire fighting? Fuck, the bosses are so fucking ignorant they let a small lightening strike turn into a mega fire at Yarnell. There was no excuse for that but it shows the intelligence of the bosses running the show –and we know some of those underlings wanted to quench that fire right away–but the bosses would not let them. Now that is screwed up knowing how dangerous the conditions were at Yarnell on 2013–they had all that information yet with all their fucking education failed to put out a lightening strike. Yes, Marsh came to be the fault but he was only a symptom of the system. Who was more to blame–Marsh or those fire bosses that failed to take care of what they knew should have been done immediately.
Underrground miners have no verbal restraint–so i used the miner lingo there–and logger lingo as well. I do not know if it is more polite in fire fighting but Gary seems to think not.
Actually Sonny, that is one of the few things you are wrong about. Most WLF don’t have a potty mouth like I do except for those who are in their element like I was when I was part of the “back of the bus” cadre.
My on-line persona that I created to freely participate here on this blog was done to separate who and what I have become from who and what I used to be. That was the deal I made with myself or I never would have started down this road about 6 years ago.
I would have remained as silent and stone faced as most of the rest of the wild land community who believe that only they can understand them and they are the only ones who has earned the right to criticize themselves but only to each other in private conversations or only to themselves within their own thoughts.
I mean…look at our friend RTS. He has been by far the most honest and engaged participant from the WLF culture here and elsewhere, but even he hasn’t told us one good fire story to make a point of just for the fun of it.
Can you imagine all of the stories he could tell if he wanted to? We know on the average there would be roughly two and half times more than I have because he was a hotshot for roughly two and one half times for as long as I was.
And during his last 15 years he experienced even more changes and dynamic fires than we both did during our first ten years while we worked at roughly the same time and in the same place since our home districts were contiguous for 6 years of those years.
But he doesn’t kiss and tell…I do. It’s like everything I did during my 30 year career and here for the last six years. There have always been people who have done everything I have and continue to do better. But they weren’t there and they aren’t here now…I am.
Oh…and one more thing. Joy has called me the George Carlin of the WLF which I consider to be a huge compliment, especially since I actually went to one of his live performances while attending Yavapai Community College in Prescott of all places and he really is smart and funny.
But I have finally been to figure out who I remind myself of since I was not only an accidental hotshot, but an accidental hotshot crew boss as well (like I have previously written) since I had a front row seat as both a spectator and participant to some of the most historical events and during a truly historical time in wild land firefighting as events happened to me and around me.
I think I am the Forest Gump of WLF and my E Ticket roller coaster ride was like a box of chocolates, I never knew what I was going to get next, but as l like to say by quoting the song sung by the great Stevie Nicks and written by Billy Falcon and Jon Bon Jovi, “Sometimes It’s a Bitch.”
Well I’ve run through rainbows and castles of candy
I cried a river of tears from the pain
I try to dance with what life has to hand me
My partner’s been pleasure, my partner’s been pain
There are days when I swear I could fly like an eagle
And dark desperate hours that nobody sees
My arms stretched triumphant on top of the mountain
My head in my hands, down on my knees
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
Sometimes love’s blind, and sometimes it sees
Sometimes it’s roses, and, sometimes it’s weeds
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
I’ve reached in darkness and come out with treasure
I’ve laid down with love and I woke up with lies
What’s it all worth only the heart can measure
It’s not what’s in the mirror, but what’s left inside
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
Sometimes love’s blind, and sometimes it sees
Sometimes it’s roses, and, sometimes it’s weeds
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
You gotta take it as it comes
Sometimes it don’t come easy
I’ve run through rainbows and castles of candy
And I’ve cried a river of tears from the pain
I tried to dance with what life had to hand me
And if I could, I’d do it all over again
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
Sometimes love’s blind, and sometimes it sees
Sometimes it’s roses, and, sometimes it’s weeds
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes it’s a breeze
Sometimes the picture just ain’t what it seems
You get what you want, but it’s not what you need
Sometimes it’s a bitch, sometimes, it’s a breeze
Well it’s a breeze, it’s a breeze, it’s a breeze
And if I could, I would do it all over again but I would try harder to get it right next time.
Plus…I kinda glossed over the original issue. And that is I was FUCKIN’ furious with a white hot anger at some of the wrong people for the right reasons and some of the right people for the wrong reasons.
But now…my anger has finally cooled to a dull red and I am angry with the right people for the right reasons I think?. And well, if I’m still a little bit off…I will eventually figure it out.
For sure Gary you are real and would be the first person If I were a youngster that I would want to know and learn from to be a wild land fire fighter and understand that work and keep alive at it.
I can still let out a few expletives when I stub my toe or fall off a ladder. And that has been a few times–there is an appropriate time for such niceties–and it might depend on what I felt to do at the time.
I have due respect for the wild land fire fighter and those bosses that worked themselves up by proving their worth. But I suspect it is like mining–there are quite a few people that are not suited for the work and a number of those wind up in the job anyway. I can see how the grunt work could fit any hand that is up to it, but when it comes to being the superintendent over so many lives then you have another story and few would fit the bill as far as I can tell. I can see that Marsh and even Steed fell down on the responsibility, although I think Steed had he not somehow been brainwashed into thinking he had to follow orders without question on a daily basis gave in despite his Marine background and wisdom to know better. Since I was there and in a way am the dumb cowboy hillbilly type, even I knew better than going down into that trap. Cowboy McKensey and his wife, who Joy and I often visted with was the real thing and would have and did agree that you do not get caught in almost impenetrable manzanita with a wild fire close by. He had lived in that area and worked cattle in that manzanita country for above 20 years and knew the dangers that brush presented. It seems that some men have it and some do not. But how would you expect a city boy that had little experience in the wilds to make good judgements? After a good amount of experience it would happen but many things require that long time of esperience to have the feel of things and intuitions to keep the crew alive. I do not want some cookie cutter bicycler dressed out like they do in those silly clothes out there directing my kid on a fire line. Those guys piss me off sometimes the way they take over a road where cars are having to slow from 70 to 10 in order to keep from running them over.
Certainly I need some correction when it comes to wild land fire fighting methods and thinking. Not my forte but it is quite the man’s job and to some their joy. Those are the winners.
.
Well we citizens need the stories–they give us an idea of how things really are in that world. And we deserve to know–we are ultimately the masses that pay the tax money that supports these efforts. America is not Ireland where the citizen joins in the fire fighting fray so we depend upon your expertise and experience in such matters.
We are especially interested in the truth of why 19 young fellows are dead at Yarnell among other facts about the many deaths at Yarnell after the massive retardant dumps.
So please continue with your stories and get your book out so we can have those treasures of experiences fighting wild fires and dealing with the system that exists.
Tex Gilligan
11:28 AM (0 minutes ago)
to Joy my opinions and concerns for your health–prayers out to Joy, they work, she is suffering from severe lung problems and going to the hospital now—I wrote to her:
I certainly want you to be OK–we have both endured what the Yarnell people have yet they mostly have no clue as to how the FS had made guinea pigs out the the town residents. They have fallen ill from the retardant that I consider as every bit as dangerous to health as the Agent Orange was to the Vietnam Veteran. The Yarnell residents have fallen ill and died like flies, yet the world keeps on turning and nothing is noticed by those that are involved or even those suffering the effects. And yes, there is a lot of hesidency to expose the effects of the retardant and as is the touted heroism these leaders have maintained at the expense of the truth and lives of fire fighters and civilians.
I was not able to get past the first page on Eric Marsh through flicker –despite my bathides I am still very illiterate with computer tech. When I went back to NMSU to continue my education I actually went to math class with a slide rule. Many of the kids did not know what the hell it was. Technology had advance to a hand held calculator and computers were then in the very early stages–cell phones non existent and such things as lap tops did not yet exist. I was a relic of the past sort of like a Rumpelstiltskin asleep for twenty years and awakening to a completely changed world in the academic environs. Logarithm tables, slide rules, and Model A Fords had by this time been relegated to history and of little use in the new technological age–however, common sense and the ability to change and learn new techniques will always be in vogue.
I still do my own carpentry work–it satisfys my needs and ascetics, I dig my own post holes and dog swimming pools by hand, plant my garden and trees, and any fencing that needs tending. I do not hold back and am repairing an old Nissan that I bought for $630 that had set since 2007. I drove it down the country road for a few miles yesterday on those old dry rotted tires to see how the old boy preforms–new tires are on the way. I like the idea that the Japanese had of putting 8 spark plugs in a 4 cylinder engine. I have some new plug wires and iridium spark plugs on the way along with a set of new tires.
I had purchased a brand new Nissan back in 1985 and used it for about two years–the way I used it hauling wood and desert crossing and mountain climbing for a couple years was such that when I went to trade it in on a later model 1987 Toyata pickup the salesman could not believe it was only two years old. He had even called out others to take a look at a truck that had looked like it had 20 years of use on it. Maybe it had since I use a truck for what they are made for, not to look fancy about town with it–so that one had brush scratches and dings from the real world of Tex Gilligan. Joy witnessed some of that–so these days I am much gentler on a truck but still like one I am not afraid to scratch on rough trails to God’s hidden paradises. About the pickup, it is a little jewel to my way of thinking–rabbits beware since I will be there and my pooches will love the hunt and the meat.
Perhaps it is well I did not access Eric’s file. I already know the gist of what happened to kill the men and Marsh’s involvement. There has been so much dishonesty involving the investigation by officials and FS personnel with political innuendos that nothing surprises me. It is not uncommon for people to lie about their previous history to elevate themselves to a higher position–even in jobs where people become responsible for the lives and safety of those they oversee.
I do believe Joy’s revelations and boldness to share will bring out more of the people with information so that the Yarnell debacle will be completely and honestly exposed for what it was. I know the young men that were needlessly killed are heroes, but those that caused their deaths do not deserve the accolades and heroic titles they have been given. Disinformation and propaganda are perhaps acceptable in spy operations and security issues of the nation, but in the deaths of young men just starting out life such subterfuge is detestable.
I do consider Joy and others here and about that have fought the good fight against the cover up as people of good intentions and followers of the facts and the need to get them out there for the many good things they will bring about. A Frenchman once said America is strong because America is good–maybe something Trump needs to repeat to himself.
This fight will continue since not only the 17 young ones were denied justice, but so many Yarnellites have succumbed and others continue to suffer the retardant dumps surrounding the little village and they too have not received justice. Truth is the sister to Justice. But truth has been ever so evasive when human factors and human nature involves itself.
Honor and respect to those cleaning house at Yarnell..
I woke up this morning –quite foggy but traffic has not slowed. The fog reminded me of the smoke and how the crew had been trapped. It brought a few questions to my mind.
One question was “How is your comfort zone?” Marsh was asked that question and to even ask it meant the person asking had concerns of having those men drop off into the manzanita. So the question tells me that whoever was asking had concerns lurking in his mind. So something was said on the order of a we have your back situation.
What bugs me some is with the knowledge that the men were taking a high danger risk known to drop off toward the ranch in that box canyon choke full of dehydrated manzanita and a full fledge mega fire nearby with winds moving things in the 40mph range–how was it that every helicopter water tank, retardant jet, and any available flying tanker not informed and available to douse these men once they were in a canyon where chances of killing the men were multiplied by a factor greater than ten.
I think I am stymied because I know these men that fly have so much experience at pinpointing a target by co-ordinates that they could do it blind folded and in a heart beat. I am a total dummy at technology yet I can speak into my phone and say directions to such and such an address and the damn thing will actually tell me exactly how to get there, even take me by the nose and pull me along with an arrow saying turn right here, left there and so on until it says you have arrived.
Now I know pilots do not need that but on my phone you can actually talk in the co ordinates and it will do the same thing. Google not only knows where your are, it can take you there. So it must be certain the pilots have GPS equipment that will out preform my galaxy smart phone. Yet they could not find the GMHS crew even in the 30 minute time they had to prepare a dump in case they could not get thought the manzanita they were observiing that they knew would challenge a bear to get through and yet knew Marsh, Steed and crew were about to try to prove they could outpreform a bear.
Willis said–an ordinary citizen could not transverse that brush but the trained wild land fire fighter could –although two ordinary citizens had transversed that area but with the same difficulty any human would have crawling under, around, back tracking and being scratched all to hell hoping you did not come face to face with a rattler as you crawled through the maze. (Joy and Sonny took from 3:30 am to 9:30 am to get through just about a mile or mile and half of that bear wallow entanglement.)
So it is the fog outside that made me wonder how that even with fog or vision diminished smoke in the air that makes me ask how is it I could use this cheap Galaxy 8 phone to go direct to anywhere on earth without even needing a clue how to read a map or figure co ordinates on a map. I do by the way know how to read maps since I once surveyed the hooch area and howitzer practice area at Hunter Liggett Army Base and produced a topographical map of said area under orders of my company commander.
So, it was quite obvious that the bumbling that day forgot the lives of the 19 despite their known perilous attempt to flank a fire–or perhaps more than flank, actually outrun a fire coming right at them and advancing at least, according to Willis at 11 mph–yet his information likely was only parroting what he was told and seems they did not want to give the actual advance rate in my estimation likely was more like double that velocity. So I am open to some professional talk on this by unbiased professionals concerning navigation.
I am very concerned about Joy- she reports her breathing is so depleted she is able to breath by coughing. Joy has never smoked and as I we are both non-smokers and over the years I have smoked maybe three packs of cigars and one pack of cigarettes by mostly social grace. Before the fire and retardant encounters, Joy could go straight up a mountain and so could I without loosing breath. If you go to the Arrowhead Bar and look west at that steep mountain range, we were camped in a cave below it for about a year. It was nothing for us to climb to the top of that range and transverse the whole length of it in rough and rocky terrain and we had done it many times. Now just a few years after the multiple retardant dumps at Yarnell of 2013 and 2015 we are both in such condition that it would tax either of us to make even 50 yards up that steep mountain side. We both have joined the ranks of the many (almost a third of) the Yarnell people that are now either dead or sick from the many retardant applications surrounding their townsite.
If you take a look at Chernobyl, it had a population of 12,500. Of that population 31 were dead within three months and 237 diagnosed with acute radiation poisoning. The town about ten miles away since has had skyrocketing child thyroid cancers and of course the general population as well has suffered the ill effects of radiation. From these statistics, Chernobyl is now an abandoned ghost town.
Yet if you look at Yarnell, there was a much greater death count after the retardant dumps–we are looking at over 100 deaths within the three years after the 2015 Yarnell disaster and another 100 deaths after the 2015 second Yarnell wild fire called the Tenderfoot fire. Good Lord, that is about a third of the population in only 6 years deceased not to mention those like Joy and myself who have suffered severe depletion of lung capacity and in my case and many others several heart attacks–mine to the point of life support and death twice and near death a total of six times. I have left the area, and now some improved–no more heart attacks since leaving and with the 6 heart stints the doctors have run a catheter to my heart twice in the past few months due to suspected heart attack return–the results–my arteries are now clear again the pain residual due to a now scarred heart where less than 50% is viable. Yet people of Yarnell have believed that the beutiful orange goop dropped about their town is as harmless as drinking a glass of water. You would think with all the death and sickness so prevalent after the retardant drops and wild fires that people would have some concern.
In the immediate areas of Yarnell and include nearby Peeples Valley and Congress there has been a great increase also of deaths and sickness all in the same areas of lung disease, heart attack and cancer. Chernobyl with a population of 12, 500 was completely abandoned due to 31 deaths and 237 sick ones, yet Yarnell with only 650 population lost 200 to death and sickness abounds with I would estimate at least half of the remaing population down with either lung issues, cancer or heart trouble by reports I receive from Joy. And Joy is very reliable there since she can name you just about every soul living there and their status without blinking an eye.
The difference in Chernobyl and Yarnell–Yarnell suffered death and illness from the retardant at a hugely greater percentage of the population than even Chernobyl for the immediate and surrounding area. However the Cherynobyl radiation traveled the globe and has affected the total population. We know the retardant certainly has affected nearby villages of Peeples Valley and Congress, Arizona but we do not know how much of the air was tainted and how far this retardant does actually extend.
Wake up Yarnell-the bell has tolled too often.
Let me add that I have since recovered from a point blank shot to the back by a 12 gauge shot gun blast that shattered my clavicle, punctured my right lung and spread lead shot throughtout my chest area. The recovery from that shotgun blast that actually lifted me off the seat of my pickup truck has been easier than the ongoing recovery from the retardant dumps I was subjected to at Yarnell. Let me tell you that I have much improved since leaving Yarnell area yet will never totally return to normal after the many heart attacks and cancer removals. Escaping the polluted retardant environment along with good living, the grace of the Irish Gods, Jesus, and God, and other friendly entities along with a love of life and care free life living keeps me on the thin line of existence. An occasional Guiness and a good shot of triple distilled Irish Whiskey are helpful at times as well.
May all your Gods bless you much, keep up the good fight and protect the young wild land fire fighter with truth and wisdom you have and help the unknowing to come to an understanding of the evil that lurks so unseen and under the cover of its black markers and black outs of facts.
**
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTHOT Pat McCarty WAS SERIOUSLY INJURED
** AND ALMOST LOST HIS LIFE IN MONTANA
>> On June 2, 2019 at 6:38 pm, Robert the Second said…
>>
>> In the Crew 7 era, prior to HS status, there was further evidence
>> of Marsh’s deceptive and disingenuous habits according to a
>> former GMHS. One of the GMHS Crewmembers had found an elk horn
>> and wanted to make a knife handle out of it.
>>
>> They were working with chainsaws and so this guy asked the
>> sawyer to cut off a piece of the elk horn for him. He was
>> holding the elk horn while the sawyer revved up the saw
>> and proceed to cut a piece off.
>>
>> The saw chain, unable to cut the obviously hardened elk horn
>> and immediately skipped across to the Crewmember’s gloved hand
>> and cut him pretty badly. The Squad Boss then truthfully
>> filled out the CA-1 accident report and told Marsh what happened.
>>
>> Marsh told the Squad Boss that they could not submit the accident
>> report as truthfully filled out and proceeded to falsify the report
>> because he said that could ruin the chances of getting their
>> Type I HS Crew status, which was more important.
>>
>> This falsified accident report made it all the way through the PFD
>> Administrative maze and in the end, Marsh walked away clean, and
>> the hapless kid was the one that got screwed because he had to pay
>> for all of his medical bills.
>>
>> And then – the poor kid was FIRED!
If that story is true… that is a VERY, VERY serious offense.
At the very LEAST… a firing offense for Marsh and anyone else who participated in ‘falsifying a workplace accident report’.
But speaking of ‘hiding evidence of injuries’ that happened to Granite Mountain crew memnbers…
In Episode 9 of their recently publish “Our Truth, Our Investigation” PODCASTS, Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood had a ‘special guest’ in their living room.
It was former GM Hotshot Pat McCarty.
Yes… the same Pat McCarty who was hired to be the primary Wildland Firefighting ‘consultant’ for the MOVIE that was made about the Granite Mountain Hotshots. McCarty is the one who ran the short ‘boot camp’ for the actors to give them even a chance of looking like real hotshots when the cameras started rolling.
In the PODCAST… Deborah Pfingston urged Pat McCarty to “tell the story” of how he was SERIOUSLY INJURED and almost lost his life when he was working with Granite Mountain.
I will print the transcript of that ‘story’ in the ‘Replies’ that follow, since it’s a little long and ‘Reply’ comments generally allow more ‘text’ than parent comments.
In a nutshell, though… Pat McCarty “spoke into the microphone” in Pfingston’s living room and told the story this way…
Granite Mountain was working a fire in Montana.
They were instructed to go direct on a gnarly piece of ground with a LOT of ‘snags’.
Pfingston’s PODCAST co-author, Doug Harwood, was THERE with McCarty on this particular assignment and was verifying everything McCarty was saying.
McCarty and his saw partner were instructed to work AHEAD of the line-building effort and ‘clear’ the more dangerous snags.
They had gotten about a mile ahead of the crew, had already dropped a lot of snags, when they came to a particularly BAD one.
McCarty stood at the base of the tree and did his ‘evaluation’… and then DECIDED that it was “too dangerous to cut”.
As he was stepping away from the tree, the top broke off and came down on top of him.
He was NOT killed… but he was injured so badly the GM crew had to build a makeshift backboard/gurney to haul McCarty over a mile back to a place where they even had a chance to get a helicopter in.
The GM crew had to then cut out an entire helispot for the ‘medevac’ chopper to land. McCarty was ‘airlifted’ out to a hospital in Missoula, Montana, where he would spend at least 2 days in the hospital due to the seriousness of his injuries.
Eric Marsh had to DRIVE to Missoula and he arrived in the middle of the night following the incident and didn’t actually see McCarty in the hospital until the next morning.
An official investigation had been started by then, and an investigator showed up in McCarty’s hospital room to begin interviewing him.
McCarty didn’t like they guy… or the questions he was asking… and when the investigator asked Eric Marsh to step out of the room, McCarty himself told the investigator that if Eric has to go… then he might as well, too.
Needless to say it was a ‘short’ interview since McCarty decided to become an ‘uncooperative’ witness.
The PROBLEM is that even though this was a SERIOUS ACCIDENT that happened to a crew member of a Type 1 IHC Hotshot Crew… and there is evidence ( from McCarty himself, in his own words ) that an investigation was STARTED ( and he was interviewed in his hospital room ) there is absolutely no official record of this SERIOUS ACCIDENT ever having taken place.
At least nothing I can find.
The NWCG is required to have public records of ALL ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENTS’ that take place at ALL Interagency fires, and you can search them by STATE.
The NWCG records show only ONE possible ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENT’ in Montana that could have possibly been this one that almost KILLED Pat McCarty… and while it was a ‘Hazard Tree Strike’ report… it really does NOT match what McCarty is reporting.
This near-fatal tree strike took place in 2010, on the “Birthday Fire”.
Here is a link to the 72-Hour report for this ONLY incident in Montana that even has a chance of being the one Granite Mountain Hotshots Pat McCarty is now ‘reporting’ in the PODCASTS…
https://www.nifc.gov/safetyAlerts/Bulletin/SB_20100426_Birthday_Fire_Preliminary_72_Hour_Report.pdf
Notice that the link above is to a copy of the 72-hour report on the NIFC website.
I would give you the link to the ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’ copy of the same “Birthday Fire” incident report… but guess what?
It has been REMOVED from the WFLLC site.
It was there once ( they left a link to it )… but it only gives you a ‘Document NOT FOUND’ error if you try to access it.
All I can do is give a link to their ‘top level’ page for the “Birthday Fire” Serious Accident ( which does, in fact, still exist… minus the 72-hour report and minus ANY kind of ‘final’ report )…
The Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC )
Birthday Fire ( 2010 )
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=9d8acc25-bb88-45ef-8318-b273e6be49ce
On that WFLLC page…
—————————————————
Birthday Fire (2010)
Incident Date: 4/19/2010
State: Montana
Date: 04/19/2010
Incident Type: Hit by Tree
—————————————————
So now notice the DATE of this ONLY ‘Tree Strike’ incident in Montana that could possible match what GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is reporting.
It happened on April 19, 2010.
According to the Granite Mountain Crew records supplied by the City of Prescott to the ADOSH investigators… GM was nowhere near Montana on April 19, 2010.
According to those ‘Crew Assignment’ records for 2010… Granite Mountain had absolutely NO ASSIGNMENTS AT ALL for the entire month of April, 2010.
More about these ‘missing accident records’ later.
The next ‘Reply’ begins with Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty “telling the story” in his own words.
No ‘hearsay’. No ‘middle man’.
This is Pat McCarty himself... telling how he was almost killed while working for the City of Prescott, Eric Marsh and Granite Mountain.
Here is Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty sitting in Deborah Pfingston’s living room “speaking to the microphone” and telling the story of his near-fatal SERIOUS ACCIDENT in Montana…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood
PODCAST Episode 9: Whose Taking the Risk
Published: May 4, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-9-Whose-Taking-the-Risk-e3u9ov
Episode 9, Part 3
—————————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston: …earlier, before we started recording, we had a conversation, Pat, where you were hurt on a fire that, when you and Doug were on the crew together, and I was immediately thinking about this rover that maybe could have gone in… because… uh… well… tell the story, Pat. What happened to you and then how you got out of that.
Pat McCarty: So we were in Montana, and my assignment was to go ahead with my saw partner and we were snagging ahead of the crew. It was lodgepole pine forest, so…
Deborah Pfingston: Well… explain what a snag is for anybody that doesn’t…
Pat McCarty: So a snag… anybody that doesn’t… ah… know that… ah… it’s a… a dead tree that’s still standing… and uhm… in this part of the forest that… in Montana there were… it was… they were everywhere. I mean, the entire forest was just littered with dead… dead downed logs… and so my assignment was to go ahead of the crew, before the crew got there, and to take out those hazard trees. So we had moved quite a ways out ahead of the crew and we had cut a lotta trees at that point… and I think there was maybe one more snagging unit that was behind us and we walked up to a tree… and, you know, we did everything that we were supposed to do… ah… my saw partner, he stood back as I walked up and started to do my assessment of the tree. What I thought about the tree. Lookin’ at the bark. Lookin’ at the density of the wood. Uh… lookin’ at the lean. All that good stuff. And I had decided at the base of the tree that the tree was too dangerous to cut. There was holes littered throughout the tree. Fire had already come through the tree. I just didn’t feel like it would be safe to be cutting at the base of that tree. So I looked and him and I was like “Hey… we’re not gonna cut this one. We’re just gonna move on. We’ll just flag it and we’ll change our line.” Eh… he walked a little bit aways away while I was watchin’ the… the top of the tree for him as he wallked away… and then when he got to where he was safe he turned to do the same for me and…
Deborah Pfingston: Now… you were watching the top of the tree… is that the most dangerous spot?
Pat McCarty: Well… I mean… I’m just look… I’m at the bottom of the tree and lookin’ up…
Deborah Pfingston: Oh. Okay.
Pat McCarty: Yeah… I’m watchin’ to make sure nuthin’, you know, big wind gusts aren’t… doesn’t blow it over on him.
Deborah Pfingston: Okay.
Pat McCarty: So when he got out he turned to do the same for me. He’s like “Hey… come on out”, and when I got, I don’t know,maybe I took like two or three steps, the top of the tree came down and landed on me. And I was knocked out for a second, and then my saw partner rushed in and he grabbed me and got me out ‘cus it was kind of an ash pit. And then he radioed off me, ‘cus I was the only one that had a radio so… you know… I mean… if it woulda crushed my mic we woulda been in another problem, but… so he radioed back to the crew and, you know, then they got the… the medical process started… which consisted of a single EMT and making a… like a… a litter to carry me out of a… a coupla tarps and some sticks and pieces of…
Doug Harwood: It was… it was such a dangerous area we couldn’t get a a helicopter in right there… we had to…
Pat McCarty: Yeah
Doug Harwood: …hike… hike Pat out and had to cut a heli… helispot while we were doing that. It was a…
Deborah Pfingston: How far did you have to hike him out?
Doug Harwood: Seemed like a mile?… a mile and a half?
Pat McCarty: I don’t know.
—————————————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’… )
( GM Hotshot Pat McCarty’s SERIOUS ACCIDENT story… continued… )
—————————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston: So you had two sticks and a tarp. Uhm… So you wrapped him up to stop mobility?… or because you were so…
Pat McCarty: Nah… they took the tarp between the sticks to make it like a… a backboard, basically…
Deborah Pfingston: Oh. Okay.
Pat McCarty: …and then used a bunch of fiber tape… I mean.. in reality it was awesome. Like… the way they did it was great. Uhm… I can’t imagine another way that they coulda moved me but… you know… I mean…
( Snip. Short sidebar discussion about what EMT’s do or don’t carry on the line )
Pat McCarty: I… I haven’t been on a hotshot crew since two-thousand ten so I don’t… you know… I’m not exactly sure what they carry anymore… but I would venture to say that even if, you know, everybody’s got a tourniquet on them… it’s called their belt… but I would venture to say that none of ’em have ever received training on how tight you actually have to put a tourniquet and then you never take it off once it’s on… you know.
Deborah Pfingston: Uhm… so… they hike you out… and Doug, you said that you had to cut a heli…
Doug Harwood: Yeah… ‘cus we were in that sn… basically snag patch that the whole forest was so we just had to find an area where the helicopter would be able to land if we could cut the trees outta the way and then just take him out.
Deborah Pfingston: …Pat… you said that when you were in the hospital and that… this has to do with what we said about independent investigations in episode eight. You didn’t particularly care for the investigator that came to the hospital room?
Pat McCarty: Yeah… so… you know… I… this was quite a while ago, but… I don’t remember if it was somebody from the Forest or from, like the regional area, or where this person came from, but they came in and they sat down with me and they started asking me questions… and it seemed like he was trying to lead me in a direction as far as where his questions were going and what he wanted me to answer with. And then, at one point, he looked at Eric… ‘cus Eric had made they drive. They flew me out. Eric arrived the next morning. He got there. They flew… they flew me to Missoula… and we were quite a ways from there… so Eric ended up arriving in the middle of the night. He came in the next morning. And this investigator, at one point, looked at Eric and said.. “Hey… uh… do you have anything to add?”… and Eric’s like “No. Not yet”… and he’s like “Well then… you know… I’ll just ask you to step outside.” And Eric’s like “Huh?”. And… at that point, like, I was already a little bit annoyed because I felt like this guy was, like, tryin’ to place blame on us when, in reality, we did what we were supposed to. Our assessment was clean. We decided the tree was unsafe. We walked away from the tree… and… an accident happened. And it felt like they were trying to place blame on us for something that, like, there was really no blame to happen… you know.. like… it was an accident.
Deborah Pfinston: Didn’t you say he was questioning you if you knew what…
Pat McCarty: Yeah. He went through, like, it was… it was really sad in a sense that, like, at that point I was a fairly experienced sawyer. I’d been running the saw on the hotshot crew for four years…
Doug Harwood: Five years.
Pat McCarty: Five years, almost… uhm… and I’d been on a saw team the entire time. And… you know… I’d done hundreds of tree assessments. Walked up. Checked the bark. Check the lean. The density of the tree… like… all that good stuff… and this person was comin’ in and, like, “Well… have you ever cut in this area?”. “Yeah. I’ve cut every year since I’ve been on a hotshot crew in this area. Like… we come and fight your fire every season. I’ve probly cut more trees than you have, man.” And… you know… then he was like “Well… are you familiar with that… that particular forest?” Well… I haven’t been on that specific spot before because it hasn’t burned… but he was insinuating that I didn’t know what I was doing.
Deborah Pfingston: Mm-Hmm.
Pat McCarty: And so I was a little bit taken back by that. I was, like, what is…? I don’t understand where this is going. And then he asked me if I was comfortable talking in front of Eric… and I felt like he… what he was trying to do is like get Eric out of the room so then he could just come up with whatever conclusion he wanted and noone would ever know what I had to say to be different. It would just be him and me and everyone’s gonna take his word because he’s the investigator, right?
Deborah Pfongston: Right. Right.
Pat McCarty: So… why have another set of ears in the room? So… that was, honestly, like a very short conversation we had with that because when he asked Eric if he would step outside, I looked at him and I said “Hey… if… uh… if he’s gonna step outside then you might as well go, too.”
Deborah Pfingston: Mm-Hmm.
Pat McCarty: And… you know… he didn’t like that so he finished up his… whatever canned questions he had and left.
Deborah Pfingston: Mm-Hmm.
Pat McCarty: You know… which is sad… because it doesn’t have to be that way.
Doug Harwood: Well it seems like what they’re tryin’ to do is… I mean… place blame on… on the people cutting the… in that position… but they’re the ones that put them in the snag patch fighting fire… if you know what I mean?
Pat McCarty: Yeah.
Doug Harwood: Someone else made the decision that we needed to go direct and be in that terrible spot on the snag patch and that person is the one tryin’ to get out of whatever blame this is.
Deborah Pfingston: Right.
—————————————————————————————————-
( Continued next ‘Reply’… )
( GM Hotshot Pat McCarty’s SERIOUS ACCIDENT story… continued… )
After a short break… McCarty continues his story in Episode 9, Part 4..
This last part of his story contains more details about the fire itself. and McCarty says that Granite Mountain was assigned to be working with the SawTooth Hotshots…
—————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: So… we were talking about… uh… Vance… before you came on we were talking about an incident that happened with Pat and he got hurt by a snag… but… why were you even there, Pat? What… what puts you there?
Pat McCarty: So… I think it’s important for everbody to understand that, like, in that part of Montana the forest is mostly made up of lodgepole pine, and… you know… it was throughout the drought… uh… pretty… pretty rough as far as the drought conditions go fire activity was… was pretty good that time of the year… and we had just left one fire… you know…. and we’d been reassigned for like two days. We only had two days of availability left in our season. So we got there and it was… a fresh start. I mean… I think it was less than twenty-four hours old. Do you remember, Doug?
Doug Harwood: I think it had been burning for a few days, actually, and they just hadn’t done anything with it until…
Pat McCarty: Well we’ll blame that on the… on the head injury. But… you know… so we basically got there and they said “Hey… we’ve got another hotshot crew up there”. I think it was Sawtooth. And you guys are gonna go meet up with them and we’re goin’ direct on it. And that’s just like… that’s what the… the marching orders were… and so, basically, you know, we had a pretty good hike in but Eric was, you know, like trying to figure and tryin’ to gain his situational awareness about this entire fire on the way in… because nobody really had… was given any great information. But, you know, hotshot crews… we solve problems that people don’t know that they have. And that was, you know, kind of our attitude. Alright… we’re gonna… we’ll figure this out. We’ll solve this problem… and there’s another hotshot crew in there and… you know… workin’ together we can get this done. So… and… you know… we were plenty aware of the snags going in. I mean… on the drive in, there’s snags everywhere. I mean… it was just like the entire forest was littered with ’em. On the hike in it was like “Oop…snag on the right… snag on the left”. There’s snags everywhere.
Deborah Pfingston: Isn’t it better to just let that burn? What’s the point of sending you guys in?
Pat McCarty: Yeah. I… I… I can’t speak to that. Uhm… that’s a decision that’s made above my head and I… I don’t what the… the environmental impact or anything like that would be on that forest. I mean… it’s probably not worth anbody’s LIFE.. I’ll tell ya THAT much. Uhm… but there’s so many things that go into a… as far as if it’s a watershed resource or if it’s, you know, there might be an endangered cricket, or sumthin’. I don’t know. Uh… but… yeah… it… it seems like… stuff like that’s more and more common with the amount of drought that we’re seeing across the entire nation.
—————————————————————————————————–
End of GM Hotshot Pat McCarty’s SERIOUS ACCIDENT story.
**
** SO WHERE IS THE ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENT’ REPORT FOR
** GRANITE MOUNTAIN HOTSHOT PAT MCCARTY’S
** NEAR-FATAL ACCIDENT IN MONTANA?
According to City of Prescott personnell records supplied to ADOSH investigators, and some online articles about Pat McCarty that appeared when the movie came out… McCarty supposedly joined Granite Mountain in the spring of 2005.
In the PODCAST itself… McCarty says that when his near-fatal tree-strike accident happened in Montana… he had been working for Granite Mountain for ‘almost 5 years’.
Also in the PODCAST… McCarty says this…
Pat McCarty: I haven’t been on a hotshot crew since two-thousand ten ( 2010 ).
SIDENOTE: Just like Doug Harwood and others… Pat McCarty is one of those Granite Mountain hotshots who had his ‘golden ticket’ punched and was able to just ‘jump’ from the Wildland side to a permanent job on the structure side with the Prescott Fire Department. McCarty’s own statement in the recent PODCAST about not having worked on a hotshot crew since 2010 actually doesn’t match the ‘press’ about him when the movie came out… most of which said McCarty had left GM just the ‘year before’ the tragedy ( 2012 )… but we now have McCarty’s own words coming out of his own mouth saying he “hadn’t been a hotshot since 2010”.
So according to McCarty’s own words in the PODCAST… that puts the YEAR of the incident he is reporting at 2010… or ( possibly? ) 2009.
Here is the NIFC’s official LIST of ALL ‘SERIOUS ACCIDENTS’ involving ANY Interagency crews or crew members that took place on ANY fire in the state of Montana from 2003 through 2014…
NIFC
Wildland Fire Accidents by State
https://www.nifc.gov/safety/safety_documents/State.pdf
Montana: 2003 through 2014
NOTE: No accidents at all listed for Montana in 2009
———————————————————————————————
Year, Place, Type of Accident, Agency, Fatalities
2003, Missoula, Heart Attack, State, 1
2004, Bridger, Work Capacity Test, Volunteer, 1
2005, Deer River, Entrapment, Federal, 0
2005, Tarkio, Deployment, Contractor, 0
2007, Bitterroot NF, Snag, Federal, 0
2007, Gallatin NF, Burnover, County, 0
2007, Gallatin NF, Entrapment, Federal, 0
2007, Lewis and Clark NF, Entrapment, Federal, 0
2008, Kalispell, Lightning, Federal, 0
2008, Neihart, Hazard Tree, Federal, 0
2008, Ryegate, Vehicle Accident, State, 0
2010, South Central, Hazard Tree, Federal, 0
2012, Kootenai NF, Medical, Federal, 0
2014, Fort Shaw, Vehicle Accident, State, 1
———————————————————————————————–
So THIS ‘Hazard Tree’ incident in Montana would be the only one on that list that even has a chance of matching what GM Hotshot Pat McCarty is reporting…
2010, South Central, Hazard Tree, Federal, 0
That ‘South Central incident’ took place on the “Birthday Fire” of 2010.
As detailed in the post up above, the DATE for this “Birthday Fire” ‘Hazard Tree’ incident in Montana was April 19, 2010.
Now here are the Granite Mountain Crew Assignment Records for their 2010 season, as supplied by the City of Prescott to the ADOSH investigators following the 2013 Yarnell Tragedy…
GRANITE MOUNTAIN INTERAGENCY HOTSHOTS – CREW FIRE RECORD – 2010
——————————————————————————————————
01/24/2010 – 01/31/2010, Winter Storm, Navajo BIA
02/10/2010 – 02/10/2010, Foothill RX, COP
03/26/2010 – 03/27/2010, Basin Drill, B.O.G
05/12/2010 – 05/13/2010, 89, COP
05/26/2010 – 06/05/2010, Horseshoe, CNF
06/10/2010 – 06/15/2010, Cutoff, GUP
06/16/2010 – 06/19/2010, Fort Bliss 2, BLM-LCD
06/20/2010 – 06/25/2010, Schultz, COF, 1, CRWB, G, B,T,S
07/04/2010 – 07/04/2010, Fireworks, COP
07/27/2010 – 08/01/2010, McDonald, Alturas BLM
08/02/2010 – 08/12/2010, ONC Staging, Shasta-Trinity NF
08/20/2010 – 08/26/2010, White Lightning, Warm Springs BIA
08/27/2010 – 09/02/2010, Fish Hatchery, Washington DNR
09/08/2010 – 09/12/2010, Rocky Mountain ABC, Wyoming FS/BLM
09/13/2010 – 09/18/2010, Reservoir Road, Boulder CO
09/25/2010 – 10/13/2010, Shoal Creek ABC, Talladega NF,
10/07/2010 – 10/10/2010, Pink E. Burns, Talladega NF
11/01/2010 – 11/02/2010, Groom Creek Rx, PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
11/03/2010 – 11/03/2010, Crate Mtn. RX, PNF ( Prescott National Forest )
—————————————————————————————————-
So in 2010, the Granite Mountain Hotshots finished an assignment at the “Basin Drill” fire on March 27, 2010… and then they show NO other assignment for 5 weeks… until the “89” fire on May 12, 2010.
In other words… NO ASSIGNMENTS whatsoever for the entire month of April in 2010.
That actually looks like some kind of official STAND DOWN on GM’s part.
They were ‘good to go’ and out fighting fires in January, February and March of 2010… and then ( suddenly ) they are ‘offline’ for the entire month of April?
Does anyone know anything about what happened there?
And if that April 19, 2010 tree-strike incident in Montana at the ‘Birthday Fire’ isn’t even the ‘incident’ McCarty is talking about… then WHERE is the RECORD ( ANY RECORD ) of McCarty’s near-fatal SERIOUS ACCIDENT in Montana while working for Granite Mountain?
SOMEBODY paid for that VERY expensive Medevac Helicopter Ride… and the equally expensive extended-stay hospital treatment… and it certainly doesn’t appear to have been Pat McCarty himself.
I don’t believe the Birthday fire tree strike is the one. It was reported as a cottonwood tree not lodgepole. So…good question…where is the report? That was a serious incident.
I am still curious as to the criteria they use to determine which incident or accident is serious or not so much. Is there a difference between “serious”, or what the other categories are if there are different levels.
My point is this…I just don’t believe the reported numbers and think they are probably artificially low which might be due to apathy, poor record communication or a deliberate effort to deceive based on how they think hiw they will be perceived if accurate numbers are higher?
I also think they are capable of downplaying what I might consider to be a “serious” incident as opposed to what someone who is trying to downplay their safety record might interpret any given incidents.
In other words…I just don’t trust anything those people say or write anymore.
Gary,
I have been mostly unsuccessful in my search for what is considered as an OWCP “serious accident.”
However, I did come across these gems from a US DOL “Elements of a Claim” though.
” Performance of Duty – Horseplay
“An employee injured during horseplay is considered to be in the performance of duty if the horseplay was of a character that could reasonably be expected where a group of workers is thrown into personal association for extended periods of time.
“It is important to determine whether the particular activity was one that was a reasonable incident of the employment or was an isolated, unanticipated event which could not reasonably have been expected to result from the workers’ close association.”
” Performance of Duty – Assault
“An employee is considered to be in the performance of duty if the assault was accidental or arose out of an activity directly related to the work environment.
“An assault is not compensable if it arose out of a personal matter having no connection with the employment.
“An assault occurring off the agency’s premises and outside of work hours may be compensable if it arose for reasons related to the employment.”
” Performance of Duty – Harassment or Teasing
“Employees who are harassed, teased or called derogatory names by coworkers are considered to be in the performance of duty provided that the reasons for the harassment or teasing are not imported into the employment from the employee’s domestic or private life”
( https://www.dol.gov/owcp/dfec/icstraining/basicelementsofaclaim/basicelementsofaclaim.pdf )
So then, it looks like all of these are allowed in the workplace and therefore compensable if they are a personal matter and they are connected to work as long as you didn’t bring them from your domestic or private life …
Wow…they are actually I lot more lenient than I thought they would be.
The only line I ever crossed was to play several volleyball on Sunday mornings after our PT because Sundays was our “camp day” to catch up on chores like policing the entire compound for litter, household chores and bringing all of the equipment up to speed.
Those Sunday morning volleyball games were a crew tradition when I came on board and of course I kept the tradition alive once I became crew boss.
All of the District staff were off and most lived in Flagstaff. The FMO and AFMO lived down in the residential area of the compound and they pretended they didn’t know we played those games on Sunday morning and I was always worried I would have to do a CA-1 because of a broken wrist or ankle because of course we played hotshot jungle volleyball. Our volleyball court was on a basketball court, but volleyball was always the game of choice.
We almost always played after dinner as well, but that was off duty hours. It kinda sounds like I might not have gotten jammed up real bad with OWCP and they might have forgiven that one if we would have had a broken bone…maybe?
We didn’t play by squads because that kind of thing can bring divisivness within the crew and be a negative impact on our crew esprit de corps which was always very important to me. As I’m sure you know as well or better than I do.
Gee…it kiinds sounds like I was at summer camp at Lake Wobegon with lots of fun activities including experienceing extreme fire behavior on occasion. We also had a recreation room with a small black and white TV that received one very snowy local channel from Flagstaff, a pool table, and a ping pong table.
Oh…and one more thing that I just connected the dots on. There have been four hotshot disaster fires in history which resulted in 43 hotshots being burned to death.
Three of them were U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crews as I have already stated plus the GMIHC.
The El Cariso Hotshots from USFS Region 5 California.
The Mormon Lake Hotshots from USFS Region 3 Arizona
The Prineville Hotshots from USFS Region 6 Oregon
I would say that’s a very wide cross section of USFS hotshot crews.
Oh…and several guys got together and bought a foosball table and put it in the red room because they were fanatical about that game.
The leader of the foosball pack had been a crew chief and door gunner on a Bell Huey gunship in Vietnam. He ended up in Iran working for Bell Helicopters maintaining the Shah’s gunships.
And he was there when the Shah was overthrown and he had to lay down in the bathtub in his hotel room because they were machine gunning it before he was taken hostage.
Anyway…he had a couple of buddies from the crew ship him a foosball table to Tehran. Now that…is what you would have to acknowledge is some real committment to the sport of foosball. Although I am pretty sure he didn’t get his foosball table out of Iran when he was finally released.
But he did end up as a Captain with the Flagstaff Fire Department, so everything worked out okay in the end. He was the senior squad when I was the second sawyer. He was on the Battlement Creek Fire.
And by a cross section I mean a researcher wouldn’t be able to trace unsafe behavior or attitudes to one particular state, forest or region. So from that I would say it would be reasonable to conclude that whatever issues were primary or secondary, those issues are present throughout the entire USFS hotshot culture..is what I am trying to say.
And the GMIHC was so loaded up with former USFS hotshots in addition to those from the general USFS WLF culture, I actually consider them to be very similar to a USFS hotshot crew in terms of training, experience, attitude and culture.
Except like I have said, in general their experience level may have been higher than the average USFS hotshot crew.
I know that every hotshot crew in existence today makes hotshot crews from my day look like amateurs because of the demands of today’s hotshot crews because of the professionalization and national crew standards and requirements. We didn’t really have any standards, our hotshot culture just kinda winged it.
Which of course all goes to really beg the question, “What the hell happened on the YHF Disaster and WHY?”
Reply to Woodsman post on June 5, 2019 at 7:46 am
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I don’t believe the Birthday fire tree strike is the one.
>> It was reported as a cottonwood tree not lodgepole.
>> So… good question…where is the report?
>> That was a serious incident.
Yes, it was. Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty is lucky to be alive.
Even if you go back to 2008 in Montana, which would NOT match the timeframe for this incident that both Doug Harwood and Pat McCarty were ‘agreeing’ on in the podcasts… there is nothing that matches this ‘incident’ that almost took Pat McCarty’s life.
There WAS another near-miss tree-strike incident in Montana, in 2008, but it involved a member of the “Chief Mountain Hotshots” by the name of Charles Still Smoking.
SIDENOTE: How’s that for a ‘Hotshot’ name? Charles Still Smoking.
That would be THIS ‘record’ in the NIFC official lists of ‘incidents’ for Montana…
2008, Neihart, Hazard Tree, Federal, 0
The cross reference in the NWCG’s own list of ‘incidents’ for that ‘Niehart, 2008’ Hazard Tree-strike is as follows…
The National Wildfire Coordinating Group ( NWCG )
Fatalities, Entrapments and Serious Accident Summary for 2008
Final list – Published: 12/31/2008
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/safety-gram/rmc-sg-2008.pdf
————————————————————————————
Date: 7/29
Fire Jurisdiction/Location: Harley Creek Fire, Helena NF, Neihart, MT
Activity: Firefighting. Line construction
Agency/Entity of Personnel involved: Fed/BIA
Type of Accident: Firefighter was hit by hazard tree
Number of people: 1
Number of Shelters Deployed: ( No entry )
Fatalities: ( No entry )
Injuries: Yes. Injuries.
———————————————————————————–
That 2008 incident on the “Harley Creek Fire” near Neihart, Montana even made the news…
The Billings, Montana Gazette
Article Title: Injured firefighter treated and released
Published: July 29, 2008 Byline: The Associated Press
https://billingsgazette.com/news/state-and-regional/montana/injured-firefighter-treated-and-released/article_1cc6de3f-bbe8-56c9-9aaa-0a0dd6fc5eb7.html
———————————————————————————-
GREAT FALLS – A member of the Chief Mountain Hot Shots, injured by a falling snag Tuesday on a wildfire near Neihart, was treated and released from Benefis Healthcare in Great Falls.
The hot shot crew’s program manager says the injured firefighter was Charles Still Smoking.
Steve Bullshoe says Still Smoking was on the Harley Creek fire when he was hit by a tree about 5 inches in diameter. He was taken by helicopter to Benefis for observation and was later released.
A spokesman for the Lewis and Clark National Forest, Dave Cunningham, says Still Smoking headed home to rest for a few days.
———————————————————————————-
NOTE: This FF was just ‘treated and released’…. unlike Pat McCarty… whose injuries were, apparently, much more SERIOUS and required an extended hospital stay.
( Continued next post due to 2-link limit )…
( Continued from previous post because of the 2-link limit… )
The NWCG has their own copy of the ‘press release’ on their own NWCG Server, with even more details in it…
The National Wildfire Coordinating Group ( NWCG )
https://www.nwcg.gov/sites/default/files/htsc-harley-ck-fire-07-30-08.pdf
————————————————————————–
Firefighter injured by falling tree near Neihart
Jul 30 2008 12:56AM – Associated Press – Eds: APNewsNow.
GREAT FALLS, Mont. (AP) A firefighter working on a blaze west of Neihart was injured by a falling tree Tuesday and was evacuated from the area by helicopter.
Dave Cunningham, a spokesman for the Lewis and Clark National Forest, says an ambulance from Belt provided medical assistance and a Malmstrom Air Force Base helicopter evacuated the firefighter, whose name, crew and condition weren’t released.
James Dawson, a Belt EMT who was driving the ambulance, said the firefighter’s injuries weren’t life threatening.
Officials say the 150-acre Harley Creek fire is about 40 percent contained. Information from: Great Falls Tribune,
————————————————————————–
So even though this 2008 tree-strike incident involving a Type 1 Interagency Hotshot crewman was NOT the near-similar incident that happened to Type 1 Interagency Granite Mountain Hotshot crewman Pat McCarty… look at ALL the official ‘documentation’ there was/is on it.
The NIFC and NWCG ( and even the PRESS ) have it FULLY RECORDED and DOCUMENTED.
So where are the equivalent RECORDS for the just-as-serious-if-not moreso near-fatal incident involving Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty?
WHO would have the ‘pull’ or the ‘authority’ to shut down an ‘investigation’ that Pat McCarty himself testifies had already been started with regards to HIS Montana incident?
Granite Mountain Superintendent Eric Marsh?
Prescott Wildland Division Chief Darrell Willis?
Some lawyers for the City of Prescott?
Some ‘combination’ of “all of the above”?
Actually…I don’t think any of those people could shut down an investigation pertaining to the accidents and injuries that happened on a federal fire. And I’m pretty sure a federal agency (OWCP) paid the bills although they could have been charged them off to the fire itself and paid for everything under the authorization of the Finance Chief through an invoice and purchase order.
But…when it came to investigating the incident/accident and taking it home with them to count as far as the City of Prescott was concerned, I’m pretty sure both Willis and Marsh had the juice to make it disappear out of any records at home.
And just FYI, that crew “belonged” to the City of Prescott and only they could make any decisions or call the shots on anything beyond signing off on their Type 1A status. And we saw how easy it was for them to manipulate the requirements to maintain their status as a hotshot crew. I don’t think there was any oversight on that crew beyond Marsh and Willis.
Who had the pull to make it go away? My speculation is a federal employee with a vested interest in the new type 1 crew…like someone in the FS that enabled its creation. Gary, did you say his name was Ed? Hollenshead, was it?
Yes, I didn’t think about that, but Ed Hollenshead would have been in a position to pull a lot of strings as both the Forest FMO for the Prescott and later as the USFS Washington D.C. Safety Officer (for the entire nation).
And as the Prescott N.F. FMO, he was the Godfather to that crew. Or between him and Willis, one was the mother and the other one was the father of the GMIHC. I’m pretty sure Willis would have been Ed’s wife.
I will have to think about the years, but Ed was on the Prescott for a long time. But in 2008, Ed would have been the Director of Fire and Aviation Management for R-5, California & the Pacific Islands whose budget was bigger than all other 9 USFS Regions combined.
So yeah…Ed had a lot of power in some very key positions for a long time and coincidentally had a history in how the USFS collected, interpreted, utilized and published fire safety stats.
Well then, that’s my best (maybe perfect) example of someone who had the motive & power to make a serious tree strike accident “go away” so as not to jeopardize a fledgling hotshot crew that he helped create. One thing I’ve learned is that most managers do not like to be wrong about anything.
The most logical explanation is the best explanation.
Walking Tall Woodsman
Yes, you very well may be right about all of that and I do know for a fact you are right about some of it.
And as a matter of fact, much like you, I think Occam’s Razor really applies here:
William of Ockham. Occam’s razor (or Ockham’s razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation. So…
I searched the NIFC SAFENET system for a Harley Fire on the Helena NF in MT and was unsuccessful.
However, I did locate another fire in MT on National Forest Land (NFL) on July 10, 2008, called the Copeland Fire, where NUMEROUS hazard tree near misses occurred – several of them unnervingly very close calls. By the Grace of God, no WFs were injured or killed on this Copeland Fire.
Ironically, that was 19 days prior to the GMHS Pat McCarty incident on the Harley Fire on the Helena NF.
A GTS search for this Copeland Fire, fire date, and fire location proved unsuccessful. And spelling, punctuation, and grammar are original from the relevant SAFENET.
( https://safenet.nifc.gov/view_safenet.cfm?id=25096 )
The WF who submitted this did a good job and must have been frightened enough by these near misses to get themselves off the fire. I wonder if it was to launder their drawers.
Moreover, the Agency Safety personnel responded fairly quickly and their narrative SEEMS to be an accurate rendition of what transpired – on its face – based on interviews and investigator recollections and such.
But ya never know any more what with the habit of so may alleged “investigators” “establishing a conclusion first and then getting those pesky ‘facts’ to support that conclusion.”
SAFENET ID: 7GFMKXSAFE [Corrective Actions]
Event Start Date: 07/10/2008 1900
Event Stop Date:
Incident Name: COPELAND FIRE
Fire Number: 53
State: Montana
Jurisdiction: USFS
Local Unit: 11401
Incident Type: Wildland
Incident Activity: Readiness/Preparedness
Stage of Incident: Extended Attack, Mop Up
Position Title: Firefighter
Task: Line Construction, Mop Up
Management Level: 5
Resources Involved: Crew, Overhead
Contributing Factors
Contributing Factors: Communications, Environmental, Human Factors
Human Factors: Decision Making, Leadership, Risk Assessment, Situational Awareness
Other Factors:
Narrative
Describe in detail what happened including the concern or potential issue, the environment (weather, terrain, fire behavior, etc), and the resulting health issue.
“Our crew was assigned to the Copeland Fire on District 1 on July 10, 2008. We arrived at approximatly 1000 hours and recieved a breifing which included the morning weather report (which included high wind warnings) at that time by our IC, who identified an individual who would be actng as his support. We started our ascent to the fire at that time which was at 5500 ft midslope. The slope grade was at 60 to 85%. It took us just over 1 hour to reach the fire. At our breifing in Libby before our travel to the D-1 fire the support person identified by the IC (hereafter referred to as “Support”) instructed us to pack for an overnighter on the mountain. When we arrived before our ascent Support instructed us to only pack food and water and our head lamps for the trip. He also informed us that we would not need to pack in any dolmars, and to just make sure that the 2 saws that we packed up were full, we did pack 4 small containers of full with us. When we reached the fire a sawyer went in before us and fell about 5 – 7 hazard trees. We proceded into the fire and began digging line wich was at around 30% complete. At around 1230 3 crew members and a squad boss trainee were asked to grid 100 yards above the fire for any spotting. They finished in approx. 45 min. There were no look outs posted and the weather was never breifed besides the report we recieved that morning. I do not believe that there was even a belt weather kit on site. After fire line was built the crew proceeded to dry mop the area. We had 2 blivets and a net of fedcos dropped around 1430. The wind statred to pick up in drafts for most of the day off and on, and at about 1830 we started reciveing very strong gusts of wind. Shortly after that a large spruce fell within our fireline about 90 feet from a mop up crew. We recieved no commuications after that other than to ‘keep our heads up’ during strong gusts. I requested that a sawyer drop a large dead spruce that my crew had been mopping up underneath. at around 1900 a thunderstorm moved directly over head. We had still not recived any other breifings and the wind had dramatically increased at this time. We were instructed to improve the fireline before we start our descent to the road. We could visibly see 2 live large trees (approx. 30-35″) drop just outside and below the fire, where our escape route ran through. As we waited for our group to gather with their gear a very large live tree which was about 45″ dropped over the fireline about 40 feet behind our crew. Where we had been improving our fireline less than 5 minutes before. As we made our descent down the hill, over 16 large live trees fell within 100 feet of our line, and many others were found to have fallen over our escape route. Everyone made it down without injury, and we had a short de-breifing in which our IC apologized for not getting us off of the slope earlier and that our breakfast and lunches would be at our campsite at 0600 hours. When we got to camp I pulled Support aside and asked to leave the assignment and given a ride back into Eureka. Support was very accomodating and took my request and relieved me from the crew.
Immediate Action Taken – Reporting Individual : please describe actions you took to correct or mitigate the unsafe/unhealthful event.
I believe we should have been pulled off of the fire much earlier or at least after the first tree fell into our fireline. I believe that someone should have been taking the weather the entire day, and we should have been given breifings regularly, and that communication could have been much stronger. I fely very unsafe under the leadership that I received and made the choice to leave based on these statments. Thank you I discussed everything that I have stated directly to my crew boss and to the Squad Boss Trainees and how I felt about the situation and how I believe that it could have been avoided. I also asked why our weather was not being taken.”
Corrective Actions: 7GKT85COCL and 7GLJM2COCL
SAFENET ID: 7GFMKXSAFE [ Return to SAFENET ]
Corrective Action ID: 7GKT85COCL
Taken By: Michael Burow
Taken Date: 07/15/2008
Taken By Email: [email protected]
Originator Notified: E-Mail
Originator Notified Date: 07/15/2008
Action:
“Individuals interviewed/talked to in conjunction with the fire in question:
1) Individual who put in the SAFENET FFT2 (First year firefighter)
2) IC on the incident Approximately 5-6 years experience
3) Sawyer/crewmember FFT1 (6-7 years of experience)
4) 2 first year firefighters FFT2 5) CRWB for the crew CRWB (20+ years of experience)
By all accounts, information flowed freely between the CRWB and crewmembers. All first year firefighters, including the individual who put in the safenet, were informed and aware of the expected higher frontal winds. This was talked about on multiple occasions. The IC and CRWB were working closely together throughout the day and constantly reassessing the weather situation. The fire in question, was ½ – 1 acre in size, mid-slope and on an easterly aspect. General winds in this area are from the SW and typically do not impact this area with the severity they could if this was a fire on a westerly aspect. After talking to the people above, it was widely known that trigger points were set for the predicted winds. This was even spoken of to me by two other first year firefighters. Once those winds did start affecting the fire area, the plan was implemented and the firefighters hiked off the hill. What was not addressed in the safenet is that this fire was also affected by cell winds that developed rapidly. These winds, in conjunction with the predicted frontal winds started moving crowns and some trees fell. After talking to multiple people on the fireline it is my understanding and interpretation that this was an “eye-opening” experience. I further believe that a good plan was in place, well known, and executed once trigger points were reached. No doubt this was a scary experience for some and an adrenaline rush for others. Corrective Action: No doubt, the firefighters got caught in a tough spot with heavy cell winds and being in an E. Spruce stand. After talking with all the individuals listed above as well as one of the duty officers for the district in which this fire occurred, it was thought that possibly the duty officer at the district level and/or our Forest Dispatch could have done a better job of getting updated weather information to the IC. This includes tracking updates on RAWS stations and following the water vapor or IR loops via the NOAA website. If the IC had updated knowledge of cell development that may have spurred him/her on to start his people down the hill sooner to avoid having to contend with these heavy cell related winds.”
7GFMKXSAFE [ Return to SAFENET ]
Corrective Action ID: 7GLJM2COCL
Taken By: Margaret Doherty
Taken Date: 07/16/2008
Taken By Email: [email protected]
Originator Notified: E-Mail
Originator Notified Date: 07/16/2008
Action:
Communicate and brief our actions and planned actions to the experience level of all crewmembers. Make sure information is clear and understood to all crewmembers.
See…that’s exactly what I was talking about. That “near miss” was actually a “hit.” And I think everyone in the nation should just stop calling “hits” “near misses” because it’s confusing….am I right?
Yes. you are right.
So we have a scenario here ( with Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty almost losing his life in Montana ) that really only has the following possibilities as to why there is no RECORD of it happening…
1. SOME near-fatal incidents ( including ones like McCarty’s that are SO serious they involve helicopter ‘dust-offs’ and extended hospital stays ) that are happening on wildfires are, in GENERAL, simply being kept a ‘secret’ and NOT being documented.
2. THIS particular incident was kept a ‘secret’ because that’s the way Eric Marsh and/or Darrell Willis wanted it.
3. A combination of BOTH ‘Door Number 1’ and ‘Door Number 2’.
I don’t know which is worse.
But the ‘prize’ that sits behind either Door numbers 1, 2, or 3 is the realization that NO ONE can actually TRUST all this ‘REPORTING’ that comes out of the NIFC, NWCG and WFLLC.
If this McCarty incident ends up being proof that ANY incident can be ‘hidden’ from the overall statistics… then NONE of the statistics can really be trusted.
No…but I don’t trust any of the federal agencies involved any more than I would trust Marsh and Willis. And like I keep saying, I’m pretty sure all of those stats are unrealistically low and in many cases, there is a complete lack of stats…as in goose eggs.
I now think all of the safety stats and investigations are falsified. Gee…I didn’t think I could possibly get any more skeptical 🤨 than I was when I retired, but they have gotten me there after the last 6 years.
I actually used to think the Battlement Creek Fire Disaster cover up was an anomaly. And believe it or not, the USFS in FIRE that I knew was an outfit I was proud to work for that was managed by principled, dedicated, honest and hard working civil servants.
Based on my extensive experience with the federal government pertaining to work related injuries and illnesses due to my hotshot supervisor positions as both a squad boss and crew boss, in addition to my own extensive experience with my own problems and smoke inhalation, it just isn’t possible to see a physician without completing a CA-1 for traumatic injuries or a CA-2 for an occupational disease.
And that is because the CA 1 and 2 firms themselves are the authorization to see the doctor and the entire reverse side of these forms neec to be completed by the attending physician. That completed form is then submitted to the Office of Workers Compensation Program (OWCP) which is part of the Department of Labor and once it has been approved by the OWCP, payment for all of the medical care that was given is made by OWCP.
Therefore without that completed form being submitted by Marsh and the doctor and subsequently approved by OWCP, no one is ever paid for the medical services that were rendered and those would have been some really big doctor and hospital bills compared to routine and common injuries like twisted ankles,
Now that being said, we have been made aware of numerous circumstances where the rules didn’t apply to the GMIHC. But since that sounds like it was a federal fire and that fire had a Safety Officer with a support staff whose job it was at least in part, to track fire related injuries, therefore I believe the CA-1 form would have been submitted, OWCP would have approved the completed form and an authorized payment would have been made or they would have been tracking someone down for payment…like McCarty.
And during that process the OWCP would have assigned it a unique claim number that I guarantee you is still in OWCP’s data base, although the case may have been “retired” by now and might not be readily available without requesting the case be reactivated through a written request.
I know what that procedure is because I recently contacted OWCP because I am getting prepared to go through another round of treatment by ET&N and pulmonologist specialists. When I called OWCP, they said that I would have to have submitted a CA form and once I replied that I had, she entered my Social Security Number and said with awe in her voice, “Oh yes…you filed a lot of those!” But of course my case itself had been retired some years ago, but the fact an OWCP claim number existed was readily available.
So…what does all of that mean? I don’t know. I do know nobody will ever tell anyone other than McCarty anything though because medical information is automatically exempt from the FOI requirements and laws.
But I can make a guess what happened. The form was submitted and paid but the people compliling the historical statistics missed it like they probably missed a lot of other fire related injuries because that kind of thing is a very low priority to the system.
I mean…look at the stats themselves, there are a lot of 0’s and 1’s. Without doing some research, I don’t think OWCP tries to differentiate between a “serious” injury and one that isn’t serious because they are neither doctors or fortune tellers and what may appear as a minor incident may turn into a serious injury or disease over time or maybe in no time at all?
I think an injury is an injury and gets an OWCP claim number that will be in their data base forever, or until our civilization collapses and we become an extinct species. Which by the way, is going to happen very quickly in terms of geological clocks in a rhetorical blink of the eye.
I think the stats listed above have to be somebody’s idea of a joke? I’m pretty sure there would have been hundreds and more likely thousands of CA-1’s and 2’s for injuries filed during those time frames? Now that you bring this up…I am very confused as to what those stats mean?
Oh…and one more thing. A CA-16 is the authorization for ant follow up medical care after McCarty returned home. With that kind of head injury, surely there would have been a follow up visit(s)?
McCarty himself was given a copy of the completed form and I would find it hard to believe there isn’t one in his PFD personnel file.
Oh…and the CA-1 itself has to tell what happened in a narrative format with witness and supervisor statements as to what happened with the standard, 18 USC 1001 warning right below where everyone signed their names. In the case of McCarty, we know there was a witness.
I just went to the link you provided and it says for example, “Type of Accident” and then “medical” is a common type listed.
What the hell does medical mean anyway? Does getting an ankle wrap from an EMT for a sprained or twisted ankle at the medical tent in fire camp count as “medical?”
Or does it have to be medical treatment provided by a doctor and or hospital because there are lots of those as well since the default selection is to get checked out by a doctor at the ER unless the injury isn’t reported at all because not many people want to take on the liability of saying, “Oh don’t worry about it…I’m sure you will be fine in the morning.”
I have a lot more questions than we started with and no answers.
Oh…and the system calls an injury like McCarty’s a “ “near miss.” But I have always thought is a misnomer because by definition a “near miss”, was actually a “hit.”
So…they should change that terminology as well while they are at it. Just sayin’….
On a semi humorous side note, OWCP instructed me that in order to activate my file, I have go into a government office and file a CA-16.
I can hardly wait to see the look on the face of the USFS Forest Safety Officer after I wander in off the street and tell them that I am there to file a CA-2 for injuries I received from 1975 through 1984. 😂
I have gone to see doctor’s dozens and dozens of times since then, (and through one throat surgery to remove lesions from my larynx) but I always just did it through my government health insurance which never cost much just because I didn’t want to screw around with OWCP. But not this time because I have gotten so much worse.
I should drive to Missoula and file it with those stupid motherfuckers at MEDC who think smoke inhation for WLF is no big deal.
I mean…they tell Mr, and Mrs. John Q. Public to stay indoors with their windows closed and not to excercise outdoors whenever a population is effected by smoke from a forest fire hundreds of miles away….one fuckin’ time.
What do they think it does to WLF who are inundated with smoke on the scene of the fire for days or even weeks at a time without any filtration system other than a bandanna?
Stupid motherfuckers and if you see them, please tell them I said they are stupid motherfuckers.
In fact…I am now thinking about driving to MEDC and telling them in person they are stupid motherfuckers except getting arrested would really fuck up my retirement and depending on their response, there is a high probability that I will get tased by Missoula PD and then get arrested.
And just FYI, no one can refuse an employee (or former employee) the right to file OWCP paperwork, they MUST accept every claim and by federal law, only OWCP can be the arbiter of every case.
But of course the system is guilty of widespread suppression of claims based on real and imagined retaliation. And in the case of the City of Prescott, it sounds like it was very real retaliation.
It was really bad back in my day and it was probably even much worse back in Bob’s day. But I never once discouraged an employee from filing and I was very strict about requiring that the paperwork be filed fir every injury.
The system is very adept at using WLF against each other through peer and culture intimidation and everyday pressure. “What’s the matter Cupcake…did you get ash in your mangina?”
“See a doctor, fuck no, I’ll be fine…don’t worry about me, you can always count on me to fuck myself over in pursuit of the Big Prize…a PFT position!”
And if that isn’t your attitude…there are lots of WLF standing in line behind you who do have that attitude. You know…just FYI.
I was always more afraid of dying a slow and painful death from esophageal cancer without any accounting from the system that was responsible, than I was of that system. And I am still afraid of the same fuckin’ thing.
Yep…getting tased, arrested and prosecuted for assault and battery is a very real possibility if I go to MEDC to file my OWCP paperwork. Stupid Motherfuckers. Look at my photos…does this look okay to you?
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
I have lots more examples. I should post all of them…stupid motherfuckers.
And of course the pejorative “ Motherfucker” should be reserved for those who are the very worst kind of people.
You know…like those Stupid Motherfuckers from MEDC who did that smoke inhalation study and concluded, “Nope…no problem here.”
I always mopped up fires like I was a crewmember, but if there was only one lateral…I got first dibs on it. 🙂
Whoops…kinda got sidetracked and went down another rabbit hole looking for Alice.
But…I m pretty sure you want to know the genesis of my book idea…right?
So anyway…I went to the Battlement Creek Fire Staff Ride and those you-know-what’s kept lying through their teeth which pissed me off and for a year during the run up to the staff ride, I kept having people tell me, “I heard that the Happy Jack Hotshots were disbanded because of their role in the Battlement Creek Fire”, which pissed me off even more.
And so decided that I should write a book about the Battlement Creek Fire. Even Dr. Ted Putnam told me, “I understand the Happy Jack Hotshots were unable to continue to function as a crew after the Battlement Creek Fire and so they were disbanded.” And I always tell everyone, “That isn’t true and those two unrelated events were in fact separated by four (4) years. And as a matter of fact, the Happy Jack Hotshots really didn’t give a fuck under direct orders from our fire gods to care about what happened on the Battlement Creek Fire and to never mention it again…so we didn’t.” End of story.
And then once I started that process, I soon found out I couldn’t write a book about the Battlement Creek Fire without a lot of context about WLF…especially hotshots.
And so I thought I would write about my experiences as a WLF as seen through the eyes of a hotshot so that people who are interested would understand how and why it happened.
And then I found out through my research that almost all of the circumstances surrounding the deaths of the El Cariso Hotshots on the Loop Fire Of 1966 were identical. So I decided that I would also write about the Loop Fire of 1966.
For example…do you know why I always put the year after I name the fire? Is it important? Probably not? But since it is preferred that fires are named after geological features, there tends to be a [Stock] Tank Fire on every district on every forest for every year. But only one (1) fire each year can be named the Tank Fire and it is the first fire on every forest (that is near a stocktank) and there can only be one until the next year.
Or if some dumbass had to go fight the fire on his birthday, and ended up as the IC, the fire gets named the “Birthday” Fire because that person is a crybaby Cupcake who got ash in his mangina and wants everyone to feel sorry for him because he had to go fight a fire on his birthday. There…you see how peer and culture pressure works? But…that fire was named in direct violation of USFS policy and the dumbass in the Fire Operations Center was an enabler to let it pass. And to make things even more confusing, the BLM didn’t name fires back in my day, (I don’t know what they do now), And so the Battlement Creek Fire Of 1976 (because it was on the Battlement Mesa and the Battlement Creek was the West flank of the fire) wasn’t even named the Battlement Creek Fire, it was officially named Fire 1126 (or something like that) because every BLM Fire was numbered sequentially which is probably just about the only smart thing the BLM has ever done when it comes to WLF. But even then, they changed and started going with informal, formal names for fires that needed to be remembered just because the 800 Pound Gorilla does it that way. Does that matter? Probably not to most people but those kind of details matter to me to put WLF in context or a reader will never “get it.” Of course naming the fire training room at the US Forest Service California R-5 the, “Fire 1126 Memorial Training Room” doesn’t really have much panache…does it?
Anyway…I then found out there were a lot of very similar primary and secondary causes for the South Canyon Fire Of 1994, which has been mistakenly become known as the Storm King Mountain Fire. And it was even misnamed in the first place because it wasn’t burning in the South Canyon on Storm King Mountain after all and the BLM fucked that up right from the very beginning and then things got worse…a lot worse for 9 Prineville Hotshots, 3 smokejumpers and 2 helitack, plus a bunch of WLF who got burned but didn’t die. And so I knew I had to write about the South Canyon Fire as well.
And then came the Yarnell Hill Fire which repeated every mistake made on the Loop, Battlement Creek and South Canyon Fires plus they added a bunch of new ones all on their own. And then I realized no one (to my knowledge) has ever connected the dots by painting a paint-by-numbers portrait of WLF gross incompetence and malfeasance in history before I did because nobody ever looked at the true primary and secondary factors of those four fires because they were too damn busy covering up the truth.
And so I decided I had to write about the Yarnell Hill Fire. And most importantly…to study those four fires in CONTEXT with each other in a holistic style because only then…can you see the true picture which is probably what “they” want, whover they are?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ghpjvXZ-5JY
And now I have one giant mess on my hands that I don’t know what to do with but I do know “mission creep” when I see it just like Supreme Court Justice Potter Stewart knew pornographers when he wrote, “I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description [“hard-core pornography”], and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the motion picture involved in this case is not that” in the Jacobellis v. Ohio landmark decision which produced one of the most (if not the most) recognizable colloquial phrases to ever come out of the U.S. Supreme Court.
So…does any of that matter? Well…to me it does and so I use this thread to both create and copy rabbit trails that I think should be included in my tome…if I can ever get it done which is looking less likely each and every passing day.
And once I could clearly see all of the common denominators between those four fires,..is the same time that that I stopped listing the Prescott Fire Department as a contributing factor because the other three crews in question…were all U.S. Forest Service Hotshot Crews.
And I really do believe that the Granite Mountain Hotshots were an above average hotshot crew because they could manipulate a weak personnel system with practically non existent oversight to the point they could cherry pick and literally hire whoever they wanted. As opposed to the new hires that are sent to fill federal crews to a large extent where appitude and the desire to be part of a hotshot crew is not based on those who would often make the best hotshots. You know…real knuckle dragging grunts who are true ground pounders.
Plus…they could offer what no one else in the country could offer to their hotshots. The very good chance to earn a position with great benefits and a chance for a normal life among normal people…more or less with the structural and dominant side of the PFD or even with another city department.
Which was literally…priceless.
And that isn’t a dog whistle for WOMEN either, I had a bigger problem with disabled veterans…or just veterans in general. God Bless all of our veterans and disabled veterans in particular.
But just because they are desperate for a job in a society that honors their veterans but do precious little to help them…do you think being told out-of-blue that we have some good news for you, we are hiring you to be on a hotshot crew is the right thing to do?
“You are offering me a position on a hotshot crew, that’s wonderful…what is a hotshot?”
“Oh…and you mean to tell me I am blocking the cert to hundreds of people below me because I have a 10 point veteran preference as a disabled vet and nobody else is getting hired until after I do…that’s great!”
And don’t even get Bob P. started on college graduates, especially those who have degrees in FORESTRY.
I originally got hired because I was attending Criminal Justice courses at a Junior College. They hired me to drive around with a uniform on writing citations to everybody who was doing the wrong thing in the middle of nowhere and were usually drunk and always armed. Does that sound like a good idea to you?
Them neither since about 1980 when they started recruiting and hiring FLETC trained law enforcement officers who carry sidearms, shotguns and assault rifles to do the same job I used to do as a dumbass 19 year old kid.
Even when I was hired on the Coconino, I wasn’t hired to be a hotshot. They hired me to be Fire Prevention Technician to drive around in another 4×4 writing court citations to fuck ups with bad attitudes.
But then I filled in on the crew for their first fire and talked my way onto the crew after that because I immediately became an adrenaline junky and needed more hits to feed the monkey.
I was not only an accidental hotshot crew boss…I was an accidental hotshot.
I think a college degree counts for three years of “specialized” experience if it’s a related field like forestry. If not…I think it counts three years of “general” experience.
But in any case…it’s a huge plus to get hired if you are young without that much related experience.
I also had related experience because I worked in mosquito control for Yavapai County using you know…manual laborer tools.
Do you care? You will if you want some pointers in how to become a WLF without knowing shit from Shinola about fighting wildfires.
Oh…and one more thing. After the personnel office sent out the disabled vet to be on my hotshot crew, I was the guy who got to either make that work or do the work to fire him or her. Guess which one I did? Yep…made it work.
And that wasn’t just any fire I filled in with the crew on. They were only about 3/4 staffed up and it happened just down the road at Clint’s Well, which was where there was a large USFS campground, a gas station and convenience store, and lots of summer cabins at the intersection of a paved state highway that either went to Blue Ridge on on to Winslow, or to Payson on on to Phoenix.
And it started in the Clint’s Well campground and blew out in every direction with almost every tree involved crowning out…big time. And crown fires are more uncommon than just ground fires. There has to be some extreme fire conditions with some strong winds for the fire to climb up crown out every tree.
The crew, such as it was because I wasn’t the only fill in, was immediately fractured into small groups of single firefighters to three or maybe four in a group. The crew boss wasn’t even there that day.
I found myself all alone making a scratch line directly in the path of a crown fire. It was an amazing sight and I was so clueless I wasn’t the least bit afraid because I thought it was supposed to be that way.
Oh…and one more thing. Since it was the first fire of the year near Clint’s Well…guess what it was namrd. Yep…the Clint’s Well Fire of 1975.
Well…maybe I was a little bit scared! 😱 But I still thought that was how it was supposed to be because I had heard so much about the “hotshots” when I worked on the Prescott N.F. They said the Hotshots are like the SEAL Team 6 of WLF. 🙂
NEWS FLASH…this just in.
The U.S. Army has found 8 officers guilty on a wide variety of charges all related to the deaths of four Green Beret soldiers and the serious wounding of two others last year in Niger when their small team was attacked and overrun by more than 100 ISIS affiliated terrorists.
The Army has concluded that the soldiers were killed and injured due to a LACK OF TRAINING AND PREPARDNESS.
All four of the dead Special Forces and the two wounded soldiers will be given Valor Awards. Of course the four dead will be given their awards posthumously.
I used this very incident as an argument as to why our front line WLF, especially our hotshots and significant other resources at a minimum should be outfitted with cheap, easy to use and effective GPS transponders and locator beacons after I pointed out that Walmart keeps track of its individual pallets of fish better than we do hundreds of millions of dollars worth of WLF resources and the mutilatd body of one soldier was found more than a mile from the location of the original attack.
Do you know what this means? Yes…the U.S. Forest Service makes the U.S. Army look like an open, honest, transparent, and progressive institution who is able to learn honest lessons from its mistakes as it tries not to make the same ones again…and again…and again..and then in the case of the Yarnell Hill Fire, one more time just for good measure.
Yes…I am in a bitchy (non gender specific) mood today.
Whoops, got lost in my tirade there.
“…and the mutilatd body of one Special Forces soldier was found more than a mile from the location of the original attack after more than 24 hours only because he was wearing a GPS locator beacon by Nigerian Government Forces.”
As a matter of fact and if I remember correctly, the BLM intially mistakenly placed the fire on and subsequently named it on the wrong side of I-70 because the South Canyon, was on the south side of the freeway and Storm King Mountain, where the fire was actually burning, was on the north side of I-70. Not that it matters here to anyone except for me and HAL 9000.
And the reason numbering fires sequentially nationwide actually makes a lot of sense, is because by simply identifying any given fire by the name and the year, does not really help to find it with an internet search unless you also name the forest every time because every forest probably has a Canyon Fire every year and so there are probably dozens of Canyon Fires (for example) on National Forests every year.
So…simply searching for or referring to the Canyon Fire of 2010 may not help you at all figure out which fire is which.
And just FYI, I try to remember to rename every disaster fire in my head as the Canyon Fire Disaster. And I think while “they” are at it…they should follow my lead on that concept as well to easily distinguish and therefore remember our fuck ups.
Because fires don’t kill wild land firefighters…wild land firefighters kill wild land firefighters. The fire was just there doing its thing while we (as an industry) ran around and somebody really fucked up bad somewhere.
And I really hate to be the one to ruin a perfectly good fire story for Pat McCarty, but that investigator was right…he really did fuck up.
How do I know I’m right? For the same reason I know I am right about Eric Marsh (and Jesse Steed) fucking up…their entire crew is dead except for Sad Sack who really lucked out.
McCarty was fuckin’ around underneath that snag when a big piece fell off it and almost killed him while a spotter WAS NOT watching the nasty and potentially deadly thing.
I mean…is McCarty stupid or what because you can’t fix stupid? You can medicate it, but you can’t fix it.
Oh…and just one more thing. The Clint’s Well Fire of 1975 was so squirrely 🐿 it never amounted to much and the crown fire coming directly at me never got there because it turned and went in another direction like hell and then turned and went the other way for a few minutes and so it never got anywhere.
The crew hadn’t even been formed into squads yet. It was just a bunch of guys with some hand tools running around completely disorganized putting in little scratche lines everywhere that actually stopped the ground fire in enough places once it came back down out of the crowns we were able to pick it up. We were actually the first ones there but after a little while the place was crawling with engines.
A ponderosa pine crown fire is the height of a mature tree and then about half that tall again with flames shooting into the sky. I’m like almost everybody else at estimating acreage,..bad.
But I don’t think the entire fire ended up being more than 10 acres and it was over almost as fast as it had started. I never saw anything so extreme while being so small at the same time again. It was a real anomaly, but I was so clueless, I thought it was SOP and just another day in the lives of the SEAL Team 6 of wild land firefighters. 🙂
Imagine that, I had been hired to drive around wearing a clean USFS uniform in a nice 4×4 truck just looking for nice people to talk to about being safe with their campfires in the forest and then I went to see Hub Harris (the District FMO) and talked my way onto a hotshot crew after Hub timed me running the 1.5 miles in under 11 minutes at 7400 feet when he didn’t think I could do it. I really fucked up.
Hub was laughing at me then and still laughing at me 30 years later because I wanted to be, you know…on the SEAL Team 6 of…oh never mind.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
June 5, 2019 at 2:15 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I really hate to be the
>> one to ruin a perfectly good
>> fire story for Pat McCarty, but
>> that investigator was
>> right… he really did fuck up.
>>
>> How do I know I’m right? For
>> the same reason I know I
>> am right about Eric Marsh (and
>> Jesse Steed) fucking up… their
>> entire crew is dead except for
>> Sad Sack who really lucked out.
>>
>> McCarty was fuckin’ around
>> underneath that snag when
>> a big piece fell off it and almost
>> killed him while a spotter
>> WAS NOT watching the nasty
>> and potentially deadly thing.
So if it actually happened EXACTLY the way Granite Mountain Hotshot Pat McCarty was “telling the story” in Deborah Pfingston’s living room… then what the fuck good is a ‘spotter’, anyway?
If it can happen just like McCarty described… then there isn’t even time for the spotter to yell “Hey dude… can I have your CD collection?”.
If that tree was as BAD as McCarty is now saying it was in the podcasts.. then he shouldn’t have even gone near the damn thing.
McCarty actually DESCRIBED the thing this way…
“And I had decided at the base of the tree that the tree was too dangerous to cut. There was holes littered throughout the tree. Fire had already come through the tree. I just didn’t feel like it would be safe to be cutting at the base of that tree.”
If it looked THAT bad… then he shouldn’t have even needed to get anywhere near the ‘base’ of it ( much less into the KILL ZONE ) before ‘noticing’ how bad it was.
And then there is this part ( just before he almost died )…
“So I looked and him ( my spotter ) and I was like “Hey… we’re not gonna cut this one. We’re just gonna move on. We’ll just flag it and we’ll change our line.” Eh… he walked a little bit aways away while I was watchin’ the… the top of the tree for him…”
So McCarty has alread decided it’s too dangerous to be at the base of that tree doing anything… yet he now says he just STOOD there in the KILL ZONE… where he should not have been in the first place… and played ‘spotter for his spotter’?
WTF?
If that ‘spotter’ had, himself, gotten so close to the thing that HE was now ‘in danger’ and that’s why McCarty had to spend those extra ( critical ) moments and play ‘spotter’ for HIM while HE ‘returned to safety’… that’s a screw-up right there. Even if he didn’t notice how bad the tree was before putting deciding to put himself right at the BASE of it… in the KILL ZONE… he still should have been able to retreat IMMEDIATELY without even having to worry about that other guy for one second.
If he had been killed… then those few moments he spent still just STANDING THERE at the base of the thing without IMMEDIATELY moving away from it would have ended up being the difference between life and death for him.
Again… if that tree ‘looked’ as bad as McCarty says it did… he should have never “walked right up to it” and been standing right at the base of it ( in the actual KILL ZONE ) in the first place.
Bad ( almost fatal ) decision.
So yea… there WERE ( are ) things to “talk about” with regards to this incident… and “questions” that needed to be answered.
And as far as the ‘investigator’ goes… that is obviously a one-sided account coming from McCarty.
The guy was THERE to ‘ask questions’.
That’s HIS job.
He ( that investigator ) didn’t know McCarty from Adam’s off ox… and yes… one of the first things he needed to determine WAS whether or not McCarty “knew what he was doing”.
And as you know ( having been an investigator yourself )… when someone’s BOSS is standing there staring at someone that you are ‘questioning’… it’s only right ( and by-the-book ) that you at least give that “witness” the opportunity to answer questions without that kind of “pressure” in the room.
Sounds like McCarty was just totally over-reacting to this investigator who was probably just trying to do HIS job correctly… and then McCarty elevated the situation to actual “uncooperative witness” status.
WTKTT,
I absolutely agree with you that McCarty and his alleged spotter had already decided the tree and the operation was too dangerous to be at the base of that tree doing anything. And then he said he just STOOD there in the KILL ZONE – where nobody should have been in the first place while he “played ‘spotter for his spotter’”?
WTF? indeed!
Reply Robert the Second ( RTS ) post
on June 5, 2019 at 6:06 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> WTKTT
>> I absolutely agree with you
>> that McCarty and his alleged
>> spotter had already decided
>> the tree and the operation was
>> too dangerous to be at the base
>> of that tree doing anything.
>> And then he said he just STOOD
>> there in the KILL ZONE – where
>> nobody should have been in the
>> first place while he “played ‘spotter
>> for his spotter’”?
>>
>> WTF? indeed!
Well… that’s why you have investigations when someone almost friggin’ DIES.
To at LEAST try to reduce the WTF? level… even if you only bring it down to the WTH? level.
And only a published ‘report’ can provide the kind of details that ( without assigning any blame ) other ‘fallers’ might want ( and need ) to know for ‘future reference’.
For example…
Did the top of that snag REALLY just, without ANY warning…, pick that one cosmic moment in time to decide to fall to the ground?
Did McCarty have ANY ‘contact’ with it prior to that?
He says he “checked the density”.
HOW did he do that? With just some ‘taps’ to the trunk or had he given it some good WHACKS with whatever faller’s axe he might have had with him?
He said he had decided to just ‘flag it’ and then move on. Did he actually put tape around the thing before stepping away ( and had physical contact with it in the process )… or did he mean he was just going to ‘tape off’ the entire area near the tree.. but not the tree itself?
Did he ‘push off’ on the tree ( at all ) as he took those ‘two steps’ just before he almost died?
You know… details.
Details that would ( and SHOULD ) be in a REPORT for others to read and ( possibly ) LEARN from.
Yes, you are both right about that. I just got lost in tye story. I thought the “spotter” has moved on because they had decided to leave and then McCarty tarried a little bit to move out of the kill zone and nobody was watching the snag when some broke off and came down.
But in any case, I’m glad I wasn’t there because that sounds like one killer snag and I know me…I wouldn’t have walked away with it still standing. Which would have been a stupid thing to do.
And Hub never laughed at me. He was too serious to laugh much, but he initially didn’t think I could make the time because you know…I have a water retention problem.
And so when I came stroking it in over the finish line after running down around the dirt roads and jumping cattle guards that was all part of our course well under the time limit…Hub had a big grin on his face because I had run so fast (for me).and he was proud of me. Hub immediately gave me what I had asked him for…a job on his hotshot crew.
And then for the next 30 years every time I ran into him, he would tell everyone how fast I had run for a big man and how he had made me a hotshot.
Hub was a great manager and one hell of an old school Wildland Firefighter. He retired as the Coordinator of the R-4 Regional Fire Operations Center in Ogden, Utah,
Oh…and one more thing. As I have said I was an average hotshot sawyer and not an expert faller by any means, but this is what I would have done.
1. I wouldn’t have fucked around trying to evaluate the density of the wood or anything else..
2. I would have judged the lean out of the kill zone.
3. I then would have then walked up to the snag with my spotter holding on to the back my cruiser vest.
4. I would have given the snag a couple of good wacks with our little ax to see if anything is going to fall down right away from the vibrations from the saw.
5. And then I would have cut the fuckin’ snag down.
6. And while I was doing so, my spotter would have continually looked up to see if anything was about to kill us. If there had have been, my spotter would have yelled a warning and pulled me in the direction I needed to run leaving my saw right right where it was because there isn’t time for a spotter to yell a warning, and then for the sawyer to compute the warning and act appropriately before they are killed. But if you feel someone pulling you back, left, or right, you should be able to get out of the way in time.
7. And then I would have moved on and cut the next fuckin’ snag down. End of story.
Oh…and one more thing. When I first started out as a hotshot crew, crew bosses could go in to the “Draft” on the big board in the Forest Supervisoes Office and hand pick our crews.
But guess what happened? Yes…you are correct that freedom and latitude was abused in a widespread and concerted effort to specifically keep women off Coconino Hotshot. Crews.
Guess what happened within a few years? Yes…you are correct, we, as a culture got bitch (non gender specific) slapped and we lost that option because we couldn’t be trusted to do the right thing with that power. So..
And now that I think about it, I think there was only one guy who was burned bad on the South Canyon Fire of 1994 but didn’t die.
And that was the last jumper to make it up and out of the huge canyon literally right in front of the blow up which almost sounds like it was an area ignition.
The three jumpers and the squad of 9 Hotshots behind him were all burn d to death. I think the helitack were killed later running along a ridge looking for a place for their helicopter to land and pick them up. Just like a couple of helitack.
There was another jumper who wasn’t even carrying a fire shelter because he didn’t believe in them, just like a jumper, and he just said, “Ah fuck this and pulled back and waited the blow up out in some big boulders which is my preferred model for what the GMIHC should have done while running for their lives.
In any case, I think it is a HUGE mistake to glorify and praise the GMIHC because they all laid down together in a space about the size of a three car garage to be burned to death when they needed up to 16.5 acres to survive.
That is what both Pfingston and Harwood did on their podcast because they are so selfish and dangerous to current and future WLF.
They are holding up the GMIHC as role models in how to all die together like that is some kind of proof of heroism, brotherhood and profile in courage.
Who else wishes they all would have run for their lives together even if it meant only one of them would have survived?
Praising their fatal decision to all lie down together in the dirt to suffer one of the worst deaths imaginable as the correct one…is just plain CRAZY and very DANGEROUS.
But neither Pfingston nor Harwood can understand just how wrong they are. Which is the same exact thing that stupid fuck Willis keeps saying over and over again. A fuckin’ clueless life long Round Hat playin’ at being a WLF. WTF…OVER.
Gary,
You make a correct & consistent statement regarding the minimum survivable area GM needed. I’m always a huge fan of it when you do because I did the math based on the best available research on safety zones. I would like to remind the world that my calculations were based on flat ground & radiant heat only. Turns out we don’t know how large an area is required when factoring convective heat as it is so variable I doubt it can be pinpointed. Therefore the 16.5 ACRE calculations is a bare minimum and most real world scenarios, as in the actual fuels weather & topography encountered at the deployment site at Yarnell Hill, would require a substantially larger area free from combustible material for high confidence of survival.
Just a “nit” to pick of mine.
One more thing: my calculation was based on a area roughly circular in shape as well. Odd shaped safety zones add another complexity to the calculation. So….16.5 ACRE area if all is perfect & it only goes up from there!
Essentially, it’s a HUGE f’ing area!
It’s important! Thanks!!! 😀
One more “nit.” They didn’t need “up to” 16.5 acres, they needed AT LEAST 16.5 acres.
As you probably know by now I love nit picking almost as much as HAL 9000 does, but you just made my mind almost explode as I tried to evaluate what you wrote and so I am going to have to give it some time to cool down and then try it again.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD PODCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** BRIAN FRISBY IS TALKING TO OTHER HOTSHOT CREWS
** ABOUT WHAT REALLY HAPPENED AT THE YARNELL FIRE.
Apparently, Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby is sick and tired of beiing told he can’t discuss what he knows ( and has ALWAYS known ) about the Yarnell Hill Fire.
According to Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood… Frisby spoke to an entire California Hotshot crew just last summer about what REALLY happened in Yarnell, and whatever he told them was enough for them to realize the SAIT investigation was a total FARCE.
In their ‘introduction’ to their PODCAST Episode 8, published just 5 weeks ago on April 24, 2019, Harwood ‘reads’ an email they received from one of the firefighters on this Hotshot crew that Frisby spoke to.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
PODCAST Episode 08: Your Changes, Our Changes
Published: April 24, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-8-Your-Changes–Our-Changes-e3qqcb
Episode 8, Part 1
+0:48
——————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood: We have a comment from a firefighter on a Hotshot crew in California. He says…
“My crew was lucky enough to work with Blue Ridge last summer. On one of the slow days the Blue Ridge supe ( Brian Frisby ) took time to speak to our whole crew about the events of that day. Between THAT conversation, and listening to your podcasts, I’m appalled by the FAILURE of our original investigation. Not only was it an injustice to the perished firefighters, it’s a disservice to our current firefighters as well. How are we supposed to learn ANY lessons from the tragedy if we don’t know exactly what happened?”
Doug Harwood: We want to thank that firefighter for his message.
Deborah Pfingston: Yes. Thank you so much.
——————————————————————————————————–
And just for the sake of completeness…
Here again is that EMAIL that Joy Collura obtained showing Blue Ridge Hotshot Superintendent Brian Frisby officially telling U.S. Forestry Service ‘Human Factors Specialist’ Joseph Harris that the “human factors” at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire were defintely “off the charts”… and much of what happened that day HAS been “swept under the rug”…
———————————————————————————————————–
From: Frisby, Brian H -FS
Sent: Tuesday, April 12, 2016 10:08 AM
To: Harris, Joseph R -FS
Subject: Human Factors!
Good morning, Joe,
It sounds like you have had the opportunity to go through the Yarnell Hill staff ride and may have some questions about some of the human factors that contributed that day. Talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. I have been invited to the operational staff ride on the 26th and 27th of this month, unfortunately any input is probably too late.
I can tell you that the human factors that day were off the charts.
We both know that the overall decision to leave the black was made by ( Eric Marsh ) but there was so much that went on that day that has been swept under the rug that may have affected the outcome.
I would love the opportunity to talk to you about it, I believe there is a lot to be learned from this event and if we are going to adopt this as an agency we need to get this right. Anyhow hope you and your family are doing well and I hope to hear from you. Thanks.
( USDA Logo ) ( U.S. Forestry Service Logo )
Brian Frisby
Blue Ridge IHC Superintendent
Coconino National Forest, Mogollon Rim Ranger District
p: 928-477-5023
c: ( Redacted )
bfrisby (at) fs.fed.us
8738 Ranger Road
Happy Jack, AZ 86024
http://www.fs.fed.us
( Twitter Icon ) ( Facebook Icon )
Caring for the land and serving people
——————————————————————————————————
WTKTT,
You posted BRHS Frisby’s email thread with USFS Human Dimensions Joe Harris: “talking to ( Redacted ) it sound like the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember. … ”
Of course, “the picture that is being painted is very different than what we remember” because the AZ State Forestry Fire Management Officer John Truett believes that the truth doesn’t matter on the YH Fire Staff Ride.
Additionally, input from other YH Fire Staff Rides during the many development phases indicated that participants suggested that BRHS Frisby and others that were on the YH Fire should be included in future YH Fire Staff Rides. However, once they included BRHS Frisby on one of them, After-Action-Review (AAR) comments by some stated that BRHS Frisby was a “DISTRACTION. ”
Are you kidding me? Someone that was actually there and instrumental in the fire was considered a mere “distraction” to some participants?
According to Dr. Putnam [paraphrasing], the wildland fire fatality investigations are lies and cover-ups and then they develop and hold Staff Rides based on these false investigation reports, so the lies and coverups and false narratives continue on.
So then, what lessons are we really learning? Certainly “incomplete” ones as the “normalization of deviance” author Dianne Vaughan has stated. ( Vaughan, D. (1999): System Effects: On Slippery Slopes, Repeating Negative Patterns, and Learning From Mistake?. Organization at the Limit. Starbuck & Farjoun; Blackwell, New York )
Wildfire fatalities continue to occur from the same causal factors because of these “incomplete lessons learned.”
Staff Rides are a valuable asset in the “lessons learned” tool box to reduce them, however, when based on deceptive “investigations,” how valuable are those “lessons learned?” An overlooked NWCG Fireline Leadership statement includes that Staff Rides: “ … should avoid being a recital of a single investigation report. Such reports rarely address the human factors that affect individual decision-making. … providing participants with a variety of information sources is important. ” (emphasis added) The YH Fire clearly requires as many different “information sources” as possible to even come close to being factual.
Disturbingly, yet not surprisingly, these statements regarding other “information sources” and a “variety of information” will be changed completely in the newest version of this website below.
NWCG: Wildland Fire Leadership Development Program. The Staff Ride (2019).
( https:// http://www.fireleadership.gov/toolbox/staffride/index.html )
And according to the NWCG Leadership program, because these reports rarely address the human factors that affect individual decision-making, providing Staff Ride participants with a variety of information sources is extremely important based on AZ State Forestry Fire Management Officer John Truett’s belief that the truth doesn’t matter on the YH Fire Staff Ride.
Consider now the newest rendition regarding “information sources” mentioned above. “While an investigation report is a primary source of information, it should not be the only source of information that is used. Facilitators are encouraged to rent and watch the movie Courage Under Fire. Although this movie is a fictional drama, it provides a good perspective on the barriers that can be encountered during an incident investigation.”
So then, let’s watch a fictional movie instead … WTF?
This is an interesting and yet another disturbing article revealing what the highest level WFs are encouraging other WFs to do. Cover up. distract, and LIE!
“ The National Interagency Fire Center (NIFC) urges investigators to withhold some findings from the public, and to avoid analyzing whether crews violated fundamental fire-line rules, ” reports The AZ Republic ( emphasis added )
Chappel, B.: Report On Arizona Hotshots’ Deaths Finds a Communications Gap; NPR (28 September 2013; 4:10 PM ET)
( https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2013/09/28/227177905/report-on-arizona-hotshots-deaths-finds-a-communications-gap )
The one who emailed BRHS Supt. Frisby was USFS Human Dimensions Specialist Joseph R Harris who works as a USFS Fire Program Specialist in Training for the USFS Rocky Mountain Research Station, RMRS, 4853 – Human Dimensions section (1 of 44 employees) at 208-514-6651 (UT) or 435-652-3191 (fax) or email at: [email protected]
( https://www.fs.fed.us/research/people/listmembers.php?station_id=RMRS&unit_id=4853&team_id= )
The quote below comes from a fairly extensive research paper (June 2, 2015) by Joseph R. Harris from the Swedish Lund University dealing with Staff Rides and the USFS as a Learning Culture.
Titled: DO STAFF RIDES HELP MOVE THE FOREST SERVICE TOWARD ITS GOAL OF BECOMING A LEARNING ORGANIZATION?”
“While staff rides are effective, they are expensive and are not scalable. There is also a perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride. (emphasis added) The Forest Service can make progress toward its goal of becoming a learning organization by closing this gap through designing learning products that aim to replicate the emotional and intellectual impact of the staff ride to a much wider audience.” (page 29)
Only a “perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride”?
Are you kidding me? There is more like a clear and unequivocal gaping chasm between the alleged “traditional written report” based on a predetermined “conclusion” supported by “facts.” And in the case of the YH Fire, the SAIT-SAIR was dubiously noted as “factual.”
Even Dr. Ted Putnam acknowledged the untrustworthiness of SAITs and SAIRs.
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/15/May-I-Introduce-Wildland-Fires-Top-Notch-Person-Dr-Ted-Putnam-His-Life-Example-Inspires-Others-To-Become-More-Wouldnt-You-Agree )
In his published IAWF April 2011 research paper titled: “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth” he acknowledges that “Sometimes investigators deliberately distort or do not report all he causal elements.” I think he is being far too kind here and understating the facts.
In my view, investigators deliberately distort or do not report all the causal elements on ALL wildland fire fatalities, especially those where WFs and FFs are killed by fire.
The one who emailed BRHS Supt. Frisby was USFS Human Dimensions Specialist Joseph R Harris who works as a USFS Fire Program Specialist in Training for the USFS Rocky Mountain Research Station, RMRS, 4853 – Human Dimensions section (1 of 44 employees) at 208-514-6651 (UT) or 435-652-3191 (fax) or email at: jrharris (at) fs.fed.us
( https://www.fs.fed.us/research/people/listmembers.php?station_id=RMRS&unit_id=4853&team_id= )
The quote below comes from a fairly extensive research paper (June 2, 2015) by Joseph R. Harris from the Swedish Lund University dealing with Staff Rides and the USFS as a Learning Culture.
Titled: DO STAFF RIDES HELP MOVE THE FOREST SERVICE TOWARD ITS GOAL OF BECOMING A LEARNING ORGANIZATION?”
“While staff rides are effective, they are expensive and are not scalable. There is also a perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride. (emphasis added) The Forest Service can make progress toward its goal of becoming a learning organization by closing this gap through designing learning products that aim to replicate the emotional and intellectual impact of the staff ride to a much wider audience.” (page 29)
Only a “perceived gap between the traditional written report and the staff ride”?
Are you kidding me? There is more like a clear and unequivocal gaping chasm between the alleged “traditional written report” based on a predetermined “conclusion” supported by “facts.” And in the case of the YH Fire, the SAIT-SAIR was dubiously noted as “factual.”
Even Dr. Ted Putnam acknowledged the untrustworthiness of SAITs and SAIRs.
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/10/15/May-I-Introduce-Wildland-Fires-Top-Notch-Person-Dr-Ted-Putnam-His-Life-Example-Inspires-Others-To-Become-More-Wouldnt-You-Agree )
In his published IAWF April 2011 research paper titled: “Accidents, accident guides, stories and the truth” he acknowledges that “Sometimes investigators deliberately distort or do not report all he causal elements.” I think he is being far too kind here and understating the facts.
In my view, investigators deliberately distort or do not report all the causal elements on ALL wildland fire fatalities, especially those where WFs and FFs are killed by fire.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD POCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** PFINGSTON SAYS ANTHONY ROSE WAS THE SAWYER ERIC MARSH
** TOOK WITH HIM ON THE SCOUTING TRIP TO THE RANCH.
Here is where Deborah Pfingston “advertises” John Maclean’s website and his research assitant Holly Neill’s PowerPoint presentation about some ‘stobs’ that she found in Yarnell.
It is also where Pfingston mentions the ‘glove’ that her husband Jerry found near the deployment site… and that she thinks it belonged to GM Hotshot Anthony Rose…
Our Investigation, Our Truths
What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood
PODCAST Episode 06: Hiking the Path
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-6-Hiking-the-Path-e3m5su
Episode 6, Part 2
+7:58
———————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: There is a beautiful PowerPoint on John Maclean’s… uh… book website… so if you type in John Maclean… go to his books website… hit the Yarnell Hill Fire… then on the right side you’ll see a button “Holly Neill”. Uhm… N-E-I-L-L… and you’ll go to her PowerPoint. Again… good work, Holly. She’s the one that found the stobs… from… that go ALL the way down the hill… ALL the way to the ranch. And… it’s public… uhm… information.
———————————————————————————————————
REALITY-INTRUSION: Even Holly Neill’s Powerpoint describes no such thing. She did NOT find ‘stobs’ ( quote ) “that go ALL the way down the hill… ALL the way to the ranch”. Pfingston is just imagining that because it fits HER agenda and HER narrative.
Pfingston continues…
———————————————————————————————————-
You can go to her PowerPoint, and she has a beautiful PowerPoint, that she has each stob… a picture of it and… uhm… exactly where they were found. So an escape route was built…
———————————————————————————————————-
REALITY-INTRUSION: Again… Neill’s PowerPoint establishes no such thing. A few cut stobs found in the flats near the Boulder Springs Ranch does NOT establish that “an escape route was built…”, much less “ALL the way down the hill… ALL the way to the ranch” as Pfingston is asserting.
But Pfingston continues, apparently just expecting the ‘listener’ to believe all this…
——————————————————————————————————–
…and it ( the escape route ) follows where my husband Jerry… uhm… found the glove… which I believe was Anthony Rose’s glove. It also follows the line of the marking tape that was found at the top of the two-track road. So… I believe… with all of these things… audio… stobs… gloves… marking tape… Eric saying “I’m at the ranch”… somebody from… in leadership saying “Move faster”… EVERYBODY knew where Granite Mountain was. People are denying it now.
——————————————————————————————————–
REALITY-INTRUSION: There is, of course, no such RECORDING of Eric Marsh ever saying “I’m at the ranch”. Just more delusions on Pfingston’s part.
And now here is Pfingston retelling the ‘glove’ story, and then asserting that it is some kind of proof that Eric Marsh took a sawyer with him on his scouting trip… and that it was Anthony Rose…
———————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: Okay. And that… that tape… uhm… was specifically right on that two track road… it was… uh… kind of right at that ridge where a lot of people believe… I believe they did not go down the saddle, which is for another conversation but I believe it ( at ) ridge… and… uhm… there are pictures of that tape… uhm… it was, you know, very important… but also right down… about halfway down… uhm… that descent… my husband Jerry and I… we were out there with a group hiking around, looking… uhm… and Jerry came upon a glove, and it was crew glove, and he found it. It was right on that ridge near boulders, and he looked at it and he thought “this is important”.
After that day we notified the authorities that we found this glove… uhm… we went back to retrieve it… it was all-of-a-sudden missing, and I’m not a conspiracy theorist, but… it was missing… and then it was never mentioned again. But… Anthony Rose was missing a glove.
If you read… uhm… in his medical examiner’s report…he was missing a glove.
So here’s tape at the top, a glove discovered, and it’s pretty normal for somebody that’s building an escape route to take a sawyer with them, right?
Doug Harwood: Yeah. In that… in that country… in that brush you’d need a sawyer with you. Yeah.
Deborah Pfingston: But you wouldn’t take your leads?
Doug Harwood: Probly not… unless they… they were just gonna do it on their own.
Deborah Pfingston: So… it’s possible that Eric took Anthony Rose… uhm… because I actually spoke to Chief Willis at the time and I asked him who would Eric might have taken… and he actually brought up Anthony to me before I even told him that we found the glove… so… it… it just seemed to make sense.
———————————————————————————————————
The above is one of those MANY places in the PODCAST(S) where you can tell that former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood is just “going along” with whatever is popping into Pfingston’s head.
Pfingston seems to be fully AWARE that Anthony Rose was not one of GM’s ‘sawyers’ for the 2013 season… but just because her husband Jerry found the ‘glove’ and she ‘thinks’ it was his… she is just trying to ‘wedge’ Rose into her narrative.
Anthony Rose was only in is SECOND season with Granite Mountain when he burned to death along with the others.
His only ratings for his first season ( 2012 ) was FFT2.
His only ratings for his second season ( 2013 ) were FFT2 / FALA.
Remember when I was in court and I presented the email where it was Jerry Pfingston who was MOST INTERESTED in the psychic hike so I get those arranged and I got a hurtful email with Ms Pfingston not giving all the details…those I arranged were the top of the top that go into court rooms and do investigations…in that phase of it Sonny was present but 1 of those psychic did talk about Rose in much depth but thats just filler data but what got me to write wad this:
On my hike with Jerry Pfingtson…I eas never shown a pic of this glove because I have spoken in person and on IM…I too lost a glove on the Weavers that day…could be mine…I had a man glove…it was leather…it was actually 1 of Sonny’s…but noone ever asked me on the hike with Jerry to describe the glove but Sonny was rough on his gloves…it had to fall out when wr had water breaks…
The topic on stobs and that area is in God’s time coming out but yeah it is interesting the faith I see and the discord I see in same breathe
About being at the ranch…it has been a widespread rumor yet more to come…
Keep the faith…
I am at the Memorial Run in Yarnell and not much going on yet 🏃
By the time Deborah and Jerry Pfingston did ANY ‘hiking’ out there… DOZENS of people had walked that slope.
The glove could have belonged to anyone.
If they have this ‘evidence’ that they say they do ( photographs, GPS points, UNREDACTED logs, etc. ) then they need to PUBLISH what they have.
They rail against the SAIT for being “obtuse and deceptive”.
Deborah Pfingston and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood are now just doing the same thing… if not WORSE.
In my mind It would be ridiculous to think they were cutting an escape route as reason for stobs. The only reason there would be stobs if they go any distance is because someone was cutting line and likely to set up a burn. That makes sense but why would cut east and west down the canyon unless they had intentions of protecting Helms and Glen Isla?
This is where some long time wild land fire bosses would have the best discernment on. I certainly do not think you would cut out an escape route in that type overgrown manzanita.
I do not remember if it were Wayne Neil or Ted Putnam that found the stobs off the two track where the GMHS crew had cut down the mountain for about 100 yards just below the boulder fires that morning. They had stopped where the boulder increases but also because the north side of that ridge they were cutting on was dense in manzanita unlike the area they had cut. I would think the fire had already advanced down that thick manzanita and that was the reason they had stopped where they did. In fact Joy and I watched it go down past the grader but could not see the burning that would have gone on above the grader and up that canyon that had danger signs and where the bulldozer stopped. I thought the dozer stopped because he would have been going into a wild fire from thick manzanita coming down the canyon he had just entered.
I remember Ted saying I wonder why they stopped where they did–then when I told him that where they stopped was just before they got into the dense manzanita and he thought that made sense–that firer was going that direction down toward Peeples Valley.
It was quite amazing to see how Marsh could cross the fire edge back and forth just above where they were working. That fire in the boulders did not become extreme until it got into the dense manzanita. By about 10:30 or 11 am the fire works began and the fire exploded so that flames were already laying down so the fire was moving up a hill side rapidly. I knew anyone trapped in that manzanita was in high danger. I did not know that Donut was down there by the old grader. That was not a good look out spot at all since where they were working was a better spot and in the boulders where there was an escape route. Where Donut was he was sure to be killed if the fire changed, which it did. All that area was dense manzanita and that little trail up there was not at all a safe place.
Brian Frisby would have known that Donut was in a precarious position and it was not a good place at all when the crew up top had better eyes on the fire than he did down in the trap. I know this because we had a good view of the fire off the two track not far from where the men were. It just looked like they wanted Donut away from the main crew since he had no real purpose being down there and really no use when the men were not only at a good escape place but very near the black while Donut was in a trap. But as Brian Frisby said the human factor was off the chart–yet he had sense enough to round up and save Donut with his ATV. I think it was no accident but Frisby would have to answer that.
sonny- you mean this article:
http://www.wickenburgsun.com/news/image_ef2dfce4-8234-11e9-bffe-237ceb494902.html
to this comment
https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvii-here/#comment-478665
Yes I was referring to the recent fire retardant drops along date road. There are quite a number of residents along date road and even a small community thing up the road from Thompson’s ranch and fish lake.
The red iron oxide added to the drops are of course so the drops can be seen and where they land is easily identifiable. The dioxins released from the slurry add to the dioxins created by the wild fire burning itself. Dioxins are considered persistent organic pollutants (POP’s). Dioxins last decades in the soil so are not easily biodegradable. But you certainly do not want to breath them in or be exposed to these chemicals. They are highly toxic and interfere with the immune system, are known carcinogens and have other effects upon the hormone production and reproduction functions. And if the dioxins are not sufficient to cause you concern, add in the florins. Florins are similar in structure to benzene and are another dangerous toxin.
In summary, the retardant is a long time pollutant containing some of the worse possible poisons and destroyers of health on the market. The dioxin and florin content in the soils and air about Yarnell has to be off the chart by now with all the extra retardant dropped there. It is no wonder that almost a third of the population of Yarnell was wiped out after the two wild fires of 2013 and 2015 with the attending excessive dumps of the toxic slurry.
The loss of 200 citizens out of 645 people is serious. But since I am one of the guinea pigs from the retardant I do know my immune system was compromised because the cancers removed had increased in intensity by a factor of ten–where before I was having most removed by freezing from a nitrogen bottle, now I was suddenly having nine removed in a month’s time, all with major surgery requiring several inches of tissue removal in each location. There were several heart attacks on my account after the fire, but there were numerous heart attack deaths with Yarnellites along with the cancer and lung deaths.
Certainly I am up in age, being 3/4 of a century old now. I do not write about my health issues for sympathy–at our elder age, we expect health issues. But I write these things to point out to people the danger of the toxins. And just as the Forest Service and the culprits that have worked the cover up the the Yarnell GMHS deaths to attempt to make it look like natural causes expected from wild land fire fighting, so also have these people hidden the truth about the toxic effects of the fire retardant.
We do not know the hidden chemicals involved beyond the ammonium poison, the dioxin poison and the florin poison. But the companies are glad to hide their secret ingredients.
It is my belief that decades of dropping retardant along the California and Oregon drainage into the Pacific are one of the main contributors to those dead zones that are popular news. In any case, the retardants have caused a human dead zone at Yarnell and surrounding areas.
Yes and isn’t that photo brilliant propaganda to impress the num skulls of public intelligence? The brain washing by the FS on the public mind makes people believe that retardant is the answer. You told me that the area was pretty much green and would have burned itself out –not a lot of fuel in the area and plenty of boulders–we knew the area and had traveled that road quite often up to Hillside. There never was much to burn in that area so some grass may have burned off and nature will bring it right back.
pages 4 thru 10
https://dc.ewu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?referer=https://www.google.com/&httpsredir=1&article=1087&context=smokejumper_mag
if you never read it- thought to re-post it.
Summer Readings-
more Summer Readings for those interested…
here you go, Kayiden:
https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/19/discoveries-in-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-provide-new-information-about-location-of-eric-marsh/
https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/20/the-yarnell-hill-fire-recordings-the-back-story/
Thanks for those ‘historic’ links ( again ), Joy.
But don’t forget this ‘companion’ link…
https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/21/sources-for-the-neilmaclean-yarnell-hill-fire-analysis/
That’s where a NUMBER of people ( including someone identifying as ‘AZFirefighter’, and who says he was with Field OPS Todd Abel at Yarnell that day ) all say they do NOT hear Eric Marsh saying he was “at the house” as Holly Neill originally reported, and some people still believe.
Even Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood, in their recently published PODCASTS, base a LOT of their “theories” about Yarnell on just this one, single interpretation of one line of audio from one single AFUE recording.
THEY both still believe Eric Marsh said he was “at the house” in that one AFUE recording… and they are still making the leap that this meant Marsh had made it all the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch that day, prior to the deployment.
And then they base a lot of their OTHER ‘current theories’ on this one ( unproven ) assumption..
Again.. a NUMBER of people at the link above agreed that the more correct translation of what Marsh said would be…
“Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
…which… if you know people from North Carolina… and you have an ear for a syllable-compressing southern accent… makes perfect sense…..
What still does NOT make any sense is that Eric Marsh was being his usual obtuse self on the radio here… and he NEVER actually answered the question he was being ASKED at that moment.
Eric Marsh had been specifically ASKED ( over the radio ) whether he was WITH ‘Granite Mountain’ ( the crew ) at that moment in time… and Marsh never really fully ANSWERS that question. Almost like he didn’t want to.
Also, at the above link, is at least one possible translation of that ENTIRE audio clip… and not just the part that Holly Neill and John Maclean originally focused on.
There were never any additional comments posted that fundamentally disagreed with THIS possible translation of the FULL audio clip… including the beginning, where we apparently hear ASM2 asking someone to find out what the hell is going on with both DIVSA Marsh AND Granite Mountain… and then… seconds later… someone on the ground proceeds to do exactly what ASM2 just asked them to do…
———————————————————————————-
AIR STUDY VIDEO STARTS
+0:08.23
(Unknown): ASM2, Copy that… behind the hills is where you place Granite Mountain?
+12.726
(ASM2): They’re on the corner just repeatedly saying that they’re comfortable and that’s not credible. ASK him whether Alpha can be placed WITH them.
NOTE: A few seconds later… Someone OTHER than who ASM2 was just talking to ( someone with what sounds like a Cajun accent? ) does exactly what ASM2 just TOLD them to do. He calls Granite Mountain directly and asks them to report their STATUS. If the time stamp on the AIR STUDY video can be trusted then it is now about 4:17 PM, just before the SAIR says they are about to leave the two-track road and drop into the box canyon at approximately 4:20 PM.
+0:40.52
(Unknown): Granite Mountain ( Five? ) What’s your status right now?
NOTE: A pretty heavy accent on this speaker. Sounds like Louisiana Cajun? What he says almost sounds like…
“Granite Montun… wuz yo status rat now?”
ALSO NOTE: Even though the caller asked for ‘Granite Mountain’ specifically, and not ‘DIVS A’… Eric Marsh responds immediately on behalf of Granite Mountain before Jesse Steed even has a chance to say anything. Jesse only ‘chimes’ in with his own ‘status’ report about “we’re pushin’ our way down into the structures” when Marsh is done speaking.
+0:54.09 to +1:03.81
(Eric Marsh) Well the guys… uh… Granite… is makin’ their way out the exact escape route from this mornin’… an’ it heads… ah… (pause) SOUTH. ( slight pause ) mid-slope, cuttin’ over.
NOTE: Another voice immediately adds to what Marsh said but it is NOT Marsh this time. It sounds like Jesse Steed.
+1:07.18
( Jesse Steed:?) We’ll be pushin’ our way down into the structures.
+1:10.16
( Another voice. Very quickly ): Copy that.
+1:21.17
( Unknown): Ten four. You with Granite Mountain right now?
+1:24.68
(Eric Marsh) Uh… just checkin’ it out to see where we’re gonna jump out at.
NOTE: There appear to be some other background conversations in this video before we hear the 11 ( ELEVEN ) shutter clicks of the AFUE team in the foreground actually shooting photos of the VLAT drop… but there is also HEAVY road traffic at this point that will take a lot more work to filter out.
AIR STUDY VIDEO ENDS
———————————————————————————–
Followup…
Just FYI ( and to whom it may concern )… that link above and all the comments associated with it have already been stored a number of times in the permanent ‘Internet Archive’..
So if, by chance, it ever happens to ‘disappear’…. the entire ‘page’ can ALWAYS still be viewed at the following link…
https://web.archive.org/web/20150326025215/https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/21/sources-for-the-neilmaclean-yarnell-hill-fire-analysis/
Followup 2…
Exactly 9 days after John Maclean and Holly Neill ‘published’ their ‘discoveries’ about the AFUE recordings on Wildfire Today ( Joy’s link up above )… author John Maclean himself stepped in and felt the need to ( publicly ) comment about their initially published “findings”.
By this time ( January 29, 2014 ), MANY people had already been ( publicly ) commenting on their original articles saying THEY were NOT hearing the same “words” in the recordings that Maclean and Neill claimed THEY were hearing.
While not a “retraction”, per se, John Maclean was now ( publicly ) “back-pedaling” and acknowledging that maybe the things he and Holly Neill had initially been so sure THEY were hearing in the recordings *MIGHT* not actually be accurate.
Here is that additional ‘companion link’ to the ones above, containing John Maclean’s “qualifying” comments…
Wildfire Today
Article Title: Update from John Maclean about Yarnell Hill Fire
Published: January 29, 2014
https://wildfiretoday.com/2014/01/29/update-from-john-maclean-about-yarnell-hill-fire/
From that article…
———————————————————————
John Maclean said…
Obsessing about a single word, “house,” is appropriate up to a point. That’s the word Holly and I and many others hear in that one of several conversations we disclosed; it is NOT the word everyone hears…
…a consideration of those transmissions should NOT be restricted to the credibility of one word, with everything hanging on that,
———————————————————————
Maclean goes on to say that even if he and Neill are WRONG about hearing Marsh say “I’m at the HOUSE”… that the BIG picture was that proof of radio communications with GM now exists, and contradicts the SAIR claiming a ’33 minute blackout’ where ‘communications could not be verified”.
But the damage was already done.
MANY people just “took their word for it” and STILL believe there is defacto PROOF ( in the recordings ) that Marsh had made it ALL the way to, or almost near, the Boulder Springs Ranch prior to the deployment.
And they are now also basing their “alternate theories” on that ONE assumption, despite any original WARNINGS about doing any such thing that came from John Maclean himself.
Example: Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute ( WFGI ) founder and former Board Vice-Chair Deborah Pfingston… and former WFGI Board Member and former Granite Mountain Hotshot Doug Harwood.
In their own RECENTLY published PODCASTS entitled “Our Investigation, Our Truth”… they BOTH are absolutely convinced that there is a RECORDING of Eric Marsh saying “I’m at the ranch”… even though that isn’t even what Maclean and Neill originally thought THEY heard.
From the Pfingston / Harwood PODCASTS…
————————————————————————-
Doug Harwood says…
And so… uh… at this point there’s radio traffic of Marsh saying that he’s at the Ranch.
Deborah Pfingston says…
And… that’s important, Doug, because later on in interviews it’s claimed by a lot of the field operation,planning operation, the IC commander… that they had no idea where he was… yet he ( Eric ) states “I’m at the Ranch”.…
And so that… I think that’s important.
So… I believe… with all of these things…
audio… stobs… gloves… marking tape…
Eric saying “I’m at the ranch”…
somebody from… in leadership saying “Move faster”…
EVERYBODY knew where Granite Mountain was.
( snip )
If they ( Granite Mountain ) came down the saddle… if they came down that ridge… Eric Marsh was already at the ranch, kind of on a little ridge at the ranch… and he has eyes on the fire… so they’re… THEY may not see it but they DO have eyes there. Uhm… he ( Eric ) even made… you know… that reference “I’m at the ranch”.
(snip)
Okay… so let’s again line up these dominoes.
We’ve got the crew that left the two-track road.
They don’t have their eyes on the fire anymore… but Eric Marsh DOES. He SAYS he does. Uhm… he’s at the ranch.
An escape route has been made. Uhm… they’re comin’ down… Uh… they think they have one to two hours. Uhm… weather is coming but weather… nobody knows weather is coming. Uhm… we have the fire has already hit the trigger points for Yarnell. We’ve got people evacuating. We have… uhm… some of the leadership claims that they didn’t even talk to Eric Marsh or the crew. Uhm… so basically… the crew’s left out there to dry.
I believe that at this time… at 1640… at 4:20… fire was put on the ground at Sesame Street. I fully believe that.
Eric Marsh is on the… uhm… can see… not only can he see Sesame Street from his location ( near the Ranch )… he sees the fire… he sees the crew comin’
etc… etc… etc…
——————————————————————-
Speaking of ‘dominoes’… the above is what happens when you go “all in” on something that hasn’t even been proven.
Pfingston and Harwood have “swallowed the kool-aid” and done exactly what John Maclean himself WARNED people NOT to do… and that is base any full-blown “theories” on just ONE WORD in a radio capture that Maclean himself admits is “questionable”.
Marsh was deceptive and disingenuous with his radio transmissions to hide his true location and intentions.
That IS NOT the way a hotshot crew boss must communicate his location and intentions to his overhead or adjoining forces.
Marsh was playing more of the games he was famous for that day and it caught up with him. Well…it actually caught up with his crew and then him.
But in any case, HAL 9000 just blew out the staub theory out if the water entirely. I hope that nonsense and the misheard radio transmissions that NEIL has falsely pushed for years now and Maclean has probably been basing his book on can finally be accepted to be bullshit now.
GREAT JOB HAL 9000. “It’s elementary my dear Watson.”
Or at least if you have, I don’t remember it.
I don’t even know why Joy is soiling Our House by posting underwear skid marks directing people to go to that body of fictional work and ridiculousness on Wildfire Today anyway?
And where the hell has RTS gone off to? Please don’t tell me he has been taken back to the Seven Sisters of Atlas for more PROBING or another impregnation by the Greys (as Sonny calls them)?
Well… whatever Joy’s reasons for posting the links ( again ) it was worth a ‘revisit’ ( at this time )… since the RECENTLY published Pfingston / Harwood “Our Investigation, Our Truths” PODCASTS are entirely based on all those ‘assumptions’ as first published by Holly Neill and John Maclean.
Pfngston and Harwood just swallowed very word of it… and only NOW we learn they have just “taken it to another level” of ridiculousness.
And that’s not ‘ancient history’. That’s NOW.
The PODCASTS really should have been called…
“Our Musings. Our Assumptions”
That’s not even all the “out there” quotes up above from the PODCASTS.
SEVERAL times… Pfingston and Harwood present their “bullet list”… which is as follows…
1. Eric Marsh took at least one sawyer with him when he went to ‘scout ahead’ of the crew towards the Boulder Springs Ranch. ( NOTE: Pfingston actually claims it was Anthony Rose just because her husband, Jerry, found a glove out there and they think it belonged to Rose. Anthony Rose was NOT one of GM’s sawyers ).
2. Marsh and Anthony Rose cut an ‘escape route’ from the top of the saddle, where Marsh left the pink marking tape, ALL THE WAY to the Boulder Springs Ranch. ( It had ‘runway lights’, and everything! Good to go! )
3. Eric Marsh and Anthony Rose then stood on one of those ‘mounds’ by the Boulder Springs Ranch all ready to play “Air Traffic Control” for the inbound “Granite Mountain 747”. Eric Marsh could SEE the ‘main fire’… and he could SEE the Sesame Street area and even the start of the manual burnout… and Eric Marsh could also SEE exactly where the crew was as they descended the shiny-new carved-out escape route.
4. Somebody then ‘lit up’ the Sesame Street area… and then for 5 to 15 minutes… the crew just stood out where they would all burn to death just dicking with radios and tryinig to get someone ( anyone ) to “help them”. No attempt to ‘save themselves’ by running either forward or backward.
That really is the bullshit that Pfingston and Harwood are “selling” in these RECENT podcasts.
And all the while they are ‘presenting’ these ‘results’ of “Out Investigation, Our Truths”… they seem unable to hear anyone listening to the PODCAST screaming back at them…
“If ALL of that is TRUE… then WHY are they DEAD?”
Total silence from both of them on how it was that Eric Marsh ( AND Anthony Rose? ) could see EVERYTHING while standing on a mound near the Boulder Springs Ranch… and 19 men including Marsh and Rose??? ) ended up burning to death just 600 yards away.
I would ask what they are smoking… but it’s all too obvious. It’s some sweet ganga blend labeled “A Couple of Cut Staubs and What Holly Neill and John Maclean Thought They Heard in a Recording”.
Available in both nickel and dime bags.
Their last PODCAST just hit the airwaves a few weeks ago.
Quick Followup…
Anthony Rose was only in his SECOND season with GM. For his FIRST season ( 2012 ) the only rating he had was FFT2. For the 2013 season… the ‘crew readiness’ document indicates he had added a FALA rating.
So on the day he died… all he had was…
FFT2 / FALA
Basically… the FALA rating just means someone has shown you how to start/stop the chainsaw without cutting any of your limbs off.
So Pfingston and Harwood would have us believe that at that critical moment in the Yarnell Hill Fire… Eric Marsh has FOUR experienced ‘sawyers’ on his crew… .and faced with with setting out to scout “a country not ( yet ) seen in daylight”… he opts to just take the 2nd year rookie to cut a P-Line for an entire Hotshot crew… at the height of the burn cycle and with a dynamic, wind-driven fire less than a mile away?
Like I said above… musta been some good ganja.
And here I didn’t think you were programmed with a sense of humor. I was wrong…again!
Oh…and one more thing. The reason they were forced to leave the Black was because they faced mortal danger from the active lightning storm that was striking the ridge.
Denial is not just a river in Egypt. 🇪🇬 .
I wish I could make that be true for them to help ease their pain.
But then again, if I had a wish like that…I would just wish Eric Marsh hadn’t killed his crew in the first place.
And then he would still be out there (presumably) taking crazy chances and getting away with it.
But then again, I doubt if they are trying to convince people their version is correct who use logic, common sense and facts to reach their conclusions.
At least that how most propagandists operate. They want people to believe who are basing their conclusions on emotion, and believing what they want to have happened…happened.
The truth really hurts sometimes. And the only problem I have with the way they are going about it, is that I believe their actions are endangering current and future WLF.
Gary,
Yes indeed ” Marsh was deceptive and disingenuous with his radio transmissions to hide his true location and intentions ” as a regular habit of doing business according to a Prescott FD employee that filled in on the GMHS on a regular basis.
This PFD employee also stated that Marsh was insistent that only three of the GMHS overhead with radios where allowed to talk on Command, Air-to-Ground, or any of the TAC channels.
Furthermore, this PFD employee also stated that Marsh was adamant that the GMHS would not accurately reveal to any of the Fire Overhead: (1) their location, (2) their intentions, or (3) their status. This was very evident on the afternoon of June 30, 2013, and was a major causal factor in their deaths.
In the Crew 7 era, prior to HS status, there was further evidence of Marsh’s deceptive and disingenuous habits according to a former GMHS. One of the GMHS Crewmembers had found an elk horn and wanted to make a knife handle out of it.
They were working with chainsaws and so this guy asked the sawyer to cut off a piece of the elk horn for him. He was holding the elk horn while the sawyer revved up the saw and proceed to cut a piece off.
The saw chain, unable to cut the obviously hardened elk horn and immediately skipped across to the Crewmember’s gloved hand and cut him pretty badly. The Squad Boss then truthfully filled out the CA-1 accident report and told Marsh what happened.
Marsh told the Squad Boss that they could not submit the accident report as truthfully filled out and proceeded to falsify the report because he said that could ruin the chances of getting their Type I HS Crew status, which was more important.
This falsified accident report made it all the way through the PFD Administrative maze and in the end, Marsh walked away clean, and the hapless kid was the one that got screwed because he had to pay for all of his medical bills.
And then – the poor kid was FIRED!
Oh no, how can that be? Marsh is the “National Hero.”
Sometimes it could be difficult and embarrassing, but falsifying CA-1’s or any other documents was out of the question.
I can’t imagine the lack of morality that would allow Marsh to falsify records that would result in a crewman paying for his own medical bills.
And then for that crewman to be fired on top of that is a stunning revelation that far exceeds the screw job he gave his former assistant over the credit card hotel points, that wasn’t even a violation of any policy.
I don’t know how he was able to retain the respect and loyalty of that crew. Maybe he didn’t and that’s why they responded so much to Steed. That was plain to everyone when Andrew Ashcraft spit on the ground in disgust in front of the entire crew after Marsh finished speaking on the radio.
A hotshot crew boss is given a great deal of latitude when it comes to accomplishing their assigned objectives within the wide parameters set by the operations plan.
But…that doesn’t include arbitrarily leaving your assigned area of operations (Division) or reassigning yourself new tasks.
That must come down their chain-of-command. Or…if conditions on the ground necessitates thst tyry make those changes, a Crew Boss must run those recommendations up the chain and wait for new orders to come back down so that everyone keeps singing the same song from the same sheet of music.
Improvising on the fly just isn’t acceptable under any circumstances outside of exigencies safety requirements.
For example, Marsh was free to withdraw his crew further within the black, but not decide to relocate them to an entirely different Division and give them a completely new assignment.
The way that entire situation developed has always amazed me, I think most hotshot crew bosses push the envelope, but all good Hotshot crew bosses color inside the lines. I know I always did.
And no one should ever have to call a hotshot crew boss back up and ask them, “Now were are you and what are you going to do?” in an attempt to get some clarity to what were definitely deliberately disingenuous and deceptive radio communications.
Marsh was way off the reservation on that fire. That is just one thing that neither NEIL nor Maclean know a fuckin’ thing about.
In other words, based on my experience, project fires are no place for ad libbing, winging it, improvising, or runnin’ and gunnin’ on the fly even when the fire is being managed by CHAOS. Or more accurately…especially when the fire is already being managed by CHAOS.
Or you know…people could die and nobody will even be able to figure out “why?”
I gave instructions and expected that those orders would be followed, and I damn sure knew how to follow the orders I was given.
You know…just as long as those orders were within the accepted regulations, policies, laws, guidelines and best practices. Otherwise, you could get jammed up going the other way.
Wildland firefighting is highly structured and disciplined. That was one reason I liked it, I always knew where I was supposed to be and what I was supposed to be doing. It made my life simple and straightforward.
And just FYI, that is the exact opposite was what my Second Act was, which is why I was much happier fighting FIRE.
You know…”Veni, vidi, vici!” Pretty fuckin’ simple.
Oh…and one more thing just as a reminder. Marsh had recent confirmation from his boss regarding exactly where he and the Granite Mountain Hotshots were supposed to be and exactly what they were supposed to be doing,
“HUNKER DOWN AND STAY SAFE!” That was not an ambiguous order and it was an ORDER. And everyone knows exactly what HUNKER DOWN means.
It meant STAY IN THE SAFE BLACK until the firestorm was over. What were they doing? Escaping down their escape route from their hundreds of acres of safety zone?
And there wasn’t any lightning. And if there was, that ridge has two sides. One side was safe in the black and where they were supposed to be, the other side was directly into the path of a firestorm and NOT where they were supposed to be.
Just to be clear since there are those who are in the process I’d rewriting historical facts.
Blue Ridge didn’t like their assignment, but they had one. Stay in this parking lot and stay safe until we can get a handle on this situation.
And Blue Ridge is still alive to this very day because they followed ORDERS.
As a matter of fact, if I ever would found myself in a place where I didn’t where I was supposed to be or what I was supposed to be doing, I would found a hotshot line to stand in because that would have been my within my comfort zone. 🙂
From the Wickipedia Joy posted: Fire retardants used in firefighting can be toxic to fish and wildlife as well as firefighters[20] by releasing dioxins and furans when halogenated fire retardants are burned during fires,[21] and drops within 300 feet of bodies of water are generally prohibited unless lives or property are directly threatened.
They failed to mention that the retardant dumped on hot fires also produces cyanide gas–Zyclon B if you like for terminology–and the very gas that killed so many Jews and other people declared as undesirables by Hitler and also used at one time to kill prisoners on death row and as a very small concealed pill spies had to use versus torture and danger of revealing their mission. The small doses in the amounts of only parts per million in the air are known carcinogens adding their effects to the dioxins that are another source of cancer causing chemicals. And what the hell else is in the chemical slop dropped around areas where people reside.
Yes, ammonium phosphate and nitrates are used in farming to make abundant growth in crops but they are also produce lung killing ammonium gases when used. As a miner, I would sometimes use a small ammonium capsule encased in glass inside a web of silk that you could burst between your fingers. You would inhale it because the nitrates in dyamite smoke would often give you a migrane type head ache. That ammonium you breathed would relieve the headache. But they never told you that you were destroying lung tissue that can never be replaced–but what the hell, doctors know you can live with probably a quarter of one lung. You just live half-assed.
At any rate, people are not inclined to believe the facts, but more inclined to believe the assholes that distribute the poisons–and if a lie is repeated often enough even the distributors begin to believe their own bullshit–after all, no one falls dead immediately after being dosed with the pollutants. It takes some time as we have noticed at Yarnell.
I don’t know how you can compensate people for shortening their lives or for the misery cause from the horrible suffering resulting from the retardant dumps. Yarnell continues to be a prime example of the horror caused by these retardants. I know Joy has been keeping track of the many deaths and ongoing suffering the people of Yarnell have endured.
I just now climbed a ladder to remove an unneeded stove pipe. I was winded doing that little chore–this situation is worse for me at times. But I am one of the fortunate ones since I am still alive. But do not think the FS and big business gives a shit about you or me regarding your health. Profits will always to them be above health and safety as we saw at Yarnell. Corporations, like the FS can hide behind their organization that can spend millions keeping themselves doing their dirty work. So about your only defense is knowing the facts and standing back from the poisons dropped from the air.
John has attacked the big mining companies. He indeed has made heroic efforts to educate people and stop the pollution and ruining of the environment. The miners in Peru and other areas take the brunt of the operations–the big players could care less about the village and people they harm. But you can see with John’s experiences how big business will go to any length to keep its profits at maximum.
Money buys politicians and people involved in situations such as we see in the pollutants dropped at Yarnell. Especially in those foreign countries where a measly 100 dollar bill will llikely find you a hit man. In Mexico there is a saying “La vida es no mas que un puno de tierra”. Translates to the live is no more than a hand full of dirt, but they mean someone else’s is life worth no more than a hand full of dirt if you get in the way of their profit schemes.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=O9xRhwmHBBE
in honor of IM Gary-
https://youtu.be/iMuFYnvSsZg
enjoy your night sir.
all these years the 1st 30 seconds of this video must remind you of me eh 😉
Thanks,
But in the meantime, I don’t believe Eric Marsh took any sawyers with him or anyone cut any P-Line. Marsh liked to work alone and move fast, especially when he was scouting the fire. A few miscellaneous staubs don’t prove or change anything.
Oh…and one more thing. Anyone who believes Marsh was the crew’s lookout, has to follow their thinking to a logical conclusion.
As the crews lookout, Marsh would have looked out for them as they dropped down into a steep box canyon choked with brush directly in front of a firestorm of Biblical proportions.
Which would make him the worst lookout in the history of wild land firefighting history.
But he wasn’t the worst lookout in WLF history, because he wasn’t their lookout. A lookout has to have eyes on the crew and the fire.
No…Marsh was the worst hotshot crew boss in WLF history.
I want to forgive him, but first we have to agree that he is responsible for the deaths of his crew through his criminally negligent decisions and actions.
This is important to reduce the chances it will happen a fourth time in WLF history. The first two were never recognized for what they were and that led to the third time. Once is an anomaly, twice is a coincidence, but three times…is a pattern.
And as far as NEIL goes…I’m allergic to her bullshit.
Something that puts a ‘full stop’ to ANY theory that “Marsh took some sawyers with him to cut a P-line” is the simple FACT that ALL FOUR of GM’s sawyers can be seen back at the ‘Rest Spot’. in Christopher Mackenzie’s photos and vidoes… as late as 3:56 PM.
And as soon as anyone says… well… maybe they had more than 4 chainsaws that day… the other ‘simple FACT’ is that thanks to Joy Collura… we KNOW they did not. The famous photograph she took of the entire crew ‘hiking up’ to the anchor point that morning shows ONLY FOUR chainsaws ( all Stihl ).
I don’t think Holly Neill, Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood ( and John Maclean himself? ) have “gotten that memo” yet.
They are all still basing most of their ‘alternate theories’ on this fantasy that Eric Marsh took ‘sawyers’ with him as he ‘scouted ahead’ to the BSR.
He did NOT.
Oh…and one more thing. I really hate to be the one to break the bad news to the star struck and gullible WLF community.
But playing a lawyer in the movies doesn’t make you a lawyer, writing a movie script about a lawyer doesn’t make you a lawyer, writing a book about lawyers, doesn’t make you a lawyer.
Saying and writing over and over again that I’m writing a book about being a hotshot doesn’t make me an author.
John Maclean is a talented book author as was his father Norman. I have read a couple of his books, so I know he is a good author.
But Mr. Maclean is not an expert wild land firefighter, wild land fire investigator, nor does he have a BS in Criminal Justice, three police and investigator academies totaling more than a year in a classroom and in practical excercises, more than two dozen highly specialized investigative courses and 30 years of experience behind him that makes him a WLF Subject Matter Expert Of the highest caliber…I do.
So sayeth I, Gary L. Olson, former U.S. Forest Service wildland firefighter, Prescott National Forest, hotshot crew boss of the Happy Jack Interagency Hotshot Crew, Coconino National Forest, hotshot crew founder and crew boss of the Santa Fe Interagency Hotshot Crew, Santa Fe National Forest, Assistant District Fire Management Officer of the Espanola Ranger District, Santa National Forest, Santa Fe National Forest Dispatcher, Zone Interagency Fire Operations Center Coordinator, Coconino County (Arizona) Deputy Sheriff, Santa Fe National Forest Chief Law Enforcement Officer and retired Supervisory Criminal Investigator and Senior Special Agent BLM New Mexico State Office, BLM Arizona State Office & USDI – BLM Washington D.C. Office of Law Enforcement and Security (1974 – 2006, Duty Stations – Prescott, AZ, Flagstaff AZ, Santa Fe, NM, Phoenix, AZ, Albuquerque, NM, Farmington, NM, & Phoenix, AZ, 2.0) with 22 years of wild land fire investigation experience after I was FLETC trained. End of story.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved4.html
And HAL 9000 is my Director Of Research!. BOOM💥 Goes The Dynamite 🧨
That all being said, when it comes to the YHF Fire Disaster and all things hotshot…I will probably defer to RTS.
But he is the only person alive or dead I will consider deferring to on those two subjects.
Gary,
Thank you for the deference to expertise noted in the research on High Reliability Organizations (HRO).
Not quite sure what you’re asking here so I’ll do my best.
It’s my professional opinion, like yours, that the GMHS overhead on June 30, 2013, completely abdicated their sole supervisory mandate to perform to the best of their abilities, ensuring the safety and welfare of those they were in charge of.
The result was the epic preventable deaths of themselves and 17 men.
As far as Maclean goes, I allege that he is, in fact, an author but one refuses to lay the blame or responsibility for WF deaths where it needs to be.
He always want to blame management or someone else.
And who gave him and Holly Neil the sole source authority to tout their story of what happened on the YH Fire as the only one “allowed” due to their “independent investigation”?
InvestigativeMEDIA website and the ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) blog have provided more accurate and trusted and truthful evidence and insight into what really happened on the YH Fire than any other source.
I think the self proclaimed dynamic “independent investigators” should hold off publishing their book for much longer because more and more evidence of what really occurred on the YH Fire is revealed every single day.
Hopefully, that’s kinda what you were looking for
https://www.wfgi.org/
https://www.wfgi.org/our-story
—————————————————————————————————
History
On June 30th, 2013 19 Wildland Firefighters of the Granite Mountain Hotshot Crew from Prescott, Arizona died when they were entrapped in a canyon at Yarnell, Arizona in the Yarnell Hill Fire.
From this great loss of life three women, Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston, and Roxanne Preston worked together to form the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute. Juliann lost her husband, Andrew Ashcraft, Deborah lost her son, Andrew Ashcraft, and Roxanne lost her husband, William “Billy” Warneke in the Yarnell Hill Fire. Through their grief the three women dedicated themselves to learning about Wildland Firefighting, delved into discovering what truly happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots that led to their deaths, and committed themselves to protecting the safety of Wildland Firefighters so that another preventable tragedy like the Yarnell Hill Fire does not occur again.
———————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston is no longer listed as being either on the “Board of Directors” for the WFGI, nor is she listed anywhere as even a ‘support’ person… but her husband, Jerry Pfingston, still is.
Also… nowhere in the recently published Deborah Pfingston / Doug Harwood PODCASTS does it mention the WFGI.
So it’s not clear whether these PODCASTS are associated with the WFGI in any way, or if the WFGI even agrees with the ‘theories’ put forth in them.
I do not know about WFGI and their stance yet there is areas that I support Pfingston like the firing operations and wanting to find the best way to get the TRUTHS out and her take on the SAIT-SAIR but I can explain that process better to her in person or a future post.
I think it is clear we have common areas of interests on the YHFire and GMHS and hope to see her this Summer 2019.
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 29, 2019 at 2:39 pm
>> Joy A. Collura said…
>>
>> I do not know about WFGI and their stance
As it turns out… something WEIRD happened last year with regards to both Deborah Pfingston, former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood, and their ‘affiliation’ with the Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute ( WFGI ).
The best way to describe it would be with a TIMELINE of ‘events’…
——————————————————————————-
** June 29, 2015
Arizona Forester Jeff Whitney announces that a settlement has been reached with the 12 Granite Mountain Hotshot families that filed “wrongful death” lawsuits against Arizona Forestry. The settlement will ALSO include a provision whereby the Arizona Division of Occupational Health and Safety ( ADOSH ) will DROP its own ‘fight’ with AZF and will ‘backpedal’ on the numerous workplace safety violation citations that ADOSH had already issued.
We now know ( because Deborah Pfingston herself has SAID so ) that this was partly because Jeff Whitney asked Pfingston and other GM family members to actually go to ADOSH and ASK them to ‘BACK OFF’ Arizona Forestry…. and they did.
A ‘press conference’ was held at 2:00 PM that day to publicly ‘announce’ this settlement.
At that public press conference, the widow and the mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, together with the widow of deceased GM Hotshot Billy Warneke, announced that they would be using the settlement money to create their own “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute” ( WFGI ). So Juliann Ashcraft, Deborah Pfingston, and Roxanne Warneke ( who has since remarried and now goes by Roxanne Preston ) became the “Founding Members” of the WFGI and its first three BOARD members.
** July 9, 2015
Just a week after the settlement press conference, the WFGI now has a ‘website’ up and running. Roxanne Warneke, Deborah Pfingston and Juliann Aschcraft are all officially listed as ‘Founding Members’ and on the ‘Board of Directors’, with Warneke acting as the ‘Chairman’ of the Board and both Pfingston and Ashcraft listed as ‘Vice Chairman’.
Warneke would continue to serve as ‘Chairman of the Board’ with Pfingston and Ashcraft both listed as ‘Vice Chairman’ for years to come.
** March 21, 2016
Ex-firefighter ( and author John Maclean’s research assistant ) Holly Neill and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood are now showing up on the WFGI website as “Board Members”
** June 10, 2017
Founding member and Board Chairman Roxanne Warneke’s name now changes on the WFGI website to Roxanne Preston. She remains Chairman of the Board with Deborah Pfingston still serving as WFGI Vice Chair.
** September 11, 2017
Holly Neill is now GONE from the WFGI website’s “Board of Directors” list.
Former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood remains on the Board.
** April 10, 2018
Doug Harwood is now listed as “Board Director, Research & Analysis – Wildland Key Support”.
** August 31, 2018
Deborah Pfingston is now suddenly GONE as ‘Vice Chairman’ of the Board, and completely GONE from the WFGI “Board of Directors” list.
Previous PIO officer Audrey Walleser is now both “Vice Chairman” AND “Public Information Officer”.
Doug Harwood has now also suddenly ‘disappeared’ from the WFGI Board of Directors page.
** February 4, 2019
The first ‘Episode’ of Deborah Pfingston’s and Doug Harwood’s PODCAST series entitled “Our Investigation, Our Truth – What Happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots” appears online at https://anchor.fm/our-truth
—————————————————————————–
So after YEARS of serving on the WFGI Board, both Pfingston and Harwood official LEFT the WFGI together, sometime between June 22 and August 31, 2018.
And a few months later, on February 4, 2019, they started publishing their Yarnell Fire PODCASTS.
If I were asked to bet coin on what might have ‘gone down’… one of my guesses ( based on the timing outlined above ) would be that they somehow wanted the WFGI to officially ‘sponsor’ and/or ‘endorse’ their PODCASTS, but the WFGI refused, so they decided to officially LEAVE that organization and, shortly thereafter, begin publishing them on their own.
If that’s what went down… then I suppose it’s safe to say the WFGI still does NOT ‘support’ their unproven ‘theories’ about what happened in Yarnell.
Joy, you do not post a lot about the retardant, and perhaps concentrating on the deaths of the wild land fire fighters is well taken. You are now a certified wild land fire fighter and your expertise now with managerial abilities would be of great value, most especially should you become Yarnell’s first Lady Fire Chief. Your abilities and knowledge of the people and area about Yarnell from years of hiking there and living among the residents qualify you as a number 10 for that job. Your certification puts an exclamation on your qualifications.
But I am a civilian, a proud army veteran to be sure, but non the less a simple person whose heart goes out to both the loved ones and friends of the GMHS crew whom were wrongfully killed, but also to the civilian population of Yarnell and surrounding areas that have suffered so greatly from the retardant dumps in both ill effects and deaths that are skewed far beyond coincidence.
But do not think I am so simple that my concerns and posts will change the increasing use of retardant. That photo you sent of a retardant dump lately on a 38 acre fire in the desert, I think along date road is a reminder of the agent orange effect it had on people that resided in Yarnell and nearby areas. The new mega fires and mega Jets they are building to fight these fires tell me that big business will continue to make its profits despite the health and killing effects of the retardant. Big business is in charge of this country and most people realize to challege it means years in courts, problems, frustrations and vexations that most would not dare to entertain.
So it seems futile, but truth is, when you educate people of the effects of that retardant on health, some will begin to stand back from it and listen to facts regarding its use. On Date road is that rancher’s and former school Principal’s small lake. I hope it did not get a dose of retardant–if so all his fish will be dead and since he and his wife are elderly, they will most certainly suffer health problems after the dump.
I say that because you and I are both health casualties from the retardant at Yarnell. I remember you wading though the black ooze from a rain runoff that happened very soon after the retardant dumps. At that time neither of us knew or believed the retardant to be the health hazard it is. I do hope, since you knew 90% or more of the 200 deceased that you would compile a list and some sort of memorial for their service as guinea pigs after the massive retardant dumps of both the 2013 Yarnell Wild Fire and the 2015 Tenderfoot Fire at Yarnell.
It comes to mind because you named two more people that have come down with terminal illness. That one lady you mentioned lived within a hundred yards of a massive dump of retardant that was North to South along the North end of Yarnell. Again she was living very close to the 2013 dump when Chief Ben Palm wanted to spray Yarnell again. Because of my hearing I did not get the other ladies name, both terminal with pancreatic cancer and both in my book not quite elderly–some above 50 is young. But they will soon be added to the 200 count out of the 645 residents that began the Yarnell Incident of June, 2013.
It is obvious that those above middle age when immune systems are not at their best, become victims of the retardant. Cancer diseases are anaerobic diseases. An immune system already compromised is pushed over the brink by that the oxygen depriving ammonium gasses given off by the retardant with disastrous results punctuated by the many other chemical reactions involving retardant dumps on hot burning vegetati0n (not the least being the cyanide gases). There is an abundance of other chemicals unknown under trade secret laws but included in these slurry dumps.
So this continues to sadden me–we both knew that one lady you mentioned and perhaps I knew the other once you again mention that name. So the useless and sad killing field continues to take its toll.
My respects and condolences to the loved ones whom have of late been victims of the Yarnell retardant dumps.
correction 2015 Yarnell dump when Chief Palm ordered the second burn back and dump of retardant mostly to the east side next residences there.
second correction–Joy is a number 10 but would be a number 1 Fire Chief person.
I should add people in their elder years have died like flies after the retardant dumps–mostly of heart and cancer diseases, though some have suffered various lung diseases that killed them. If you have asthma, bad heart, or cancer, I would not advise hanging around the retardant dumps–well i would not advise it even if you do not. Zack whom hiked with me to the site and I am certain soon after was only 29 but he had asthma and used a portable oxygen device as we hiked. He did not last a year after that visit. But it is mostly the elderly we have seen deceased since the fire–still others younger in their 40’s like Mr. Black, (whom I used to call my brother) (my mother’s maiden name was Black). He fell ill with lung disease and is now dead.
I have to believe that why it does not affect the younger person is because at an early age the immune system is intact. People who do work fires are in top physical condition. It is in their later years that they begin to feel the effects of having been exposed to the slurry and the gases off of it.
Like the Uranium miner they will in later years know that their lives will be shortened, often to a great amount with the attending suffering due to the chemical poisons endured.
You can certainly understand why I maintain that these wild land fire fighters and any others in the fire fighting business are grossly underpaid. Miners these days draw $50 and above and loggers paid by contract do well also. But the Wild Land Fire Fighter is paid a salary not near the amount consistent with the danger and the future health effects it will have upon his life.
I can tell you it is no fun having tumors removed from your face and being sewed up like a rag doll. Nine cancers escalated after the retardant esposure and removed from my face required a total of 50 stitches. These six heart attacks after the retardant drops put me in death’s clutches and even hospice except I am an exception and escaped let us say by the grace of God and the good Irish Gods and Goddesses and if you like add in Jesus. I have met death a few times and know what it is like going down the tunnel. But we all deserve good health and those of us willing to go at work others would not dare deserve and have earned our dues. That includes most certainly the first responder wild land fire fighter that has been so poorly paid.
You Said:
On Date road is that rancher’s and former school Principal’s small lake. I hope it did not get a dose of retardant–if so all his fish will be dead and since he and his wife are elderly, they will most certainly suffer health problems after the dump.
my reply:
It is rd 62/S Date Creek Rd. not Date Rd.
https://gcmaz.com/yavapai-county-rancher-trash-burning-leads-to-a-bigger-problem-near-congress/
http://www.wickenburgsun.com/obituaries/article_b30ebc55-02f7-5570-8c03-47a3f38a49ab.html
I am sorry Sonny but to me they were a part of my desert trails and their lives matter to me. SOOOO much so….When they took out of Thompson water to make a fire grow bigger 2 yrs ago then charge him…it was a darn burn barrel for pete sakes then BLM and the others came in and had their ways at it-
This jurisdiction…coalition bullshit stuff where they get this past week in my freaking desert town a STATE SEAT for a 36 acre and dropped as much SHIT as they did—I already am on that with my air to ground research and homeowners—stay out of my town with your horseshit tactics and make pretty red skies and people go ohhh and awe until they cough up their own blood or for years KNOW who you are then say this girl use to visit me all the time not realizing that girl is who she is talking- me…the many pancreatic deaths here and lungs and cancers and respiratory…STAY OUT! I really am tired of oh ahhh we a team (YFD/Congress/Wickenburg/BLM/State) and say its under investigation and I say go look at your forensic weather data and your real time heat and other types and stop the bullshit…really. We are all watching you all now and documenting it…so LEARN how to handle fires or stay the freak out of the biz-
We need some old time fire folks to come back and bridge the new kinds and it will be neat to see how many of the ones there were red carded or NOT because or town just had a good shift in staff so keep playing with fire as you may but do know we are building and building and watching too-
I am so sick of them destroying lives for the benefit of a buck
.
Gayle did so much for Aguila and Congress
I am tired of lives being destroyed
So many ranchers had burn barrels burn over the decades and even burn a little grass here and there due to a swift wind change but what happened in 2017 and seeing the before and the after burn scars-
Enough.
Stay out of our towns with your “under investigations” or blaming the miners —the loggers—the ranchers as being the “suspicious” ones when the data is real time and shows the true story.
Enough.
I miss you Gayle and going and visiting you and Mr. Thompson
I am sorry you are not here anymore
and I wish people knew all the good you did in our world.
I am watching the one lady I adore now shift so much that I almost gave up on DC just to be at her side even though she no longer remembers me and I have known her 43 years now and I feel this fire stuff I have gave priority and yet I feel so very sad what has happened to the people from homeowners to firefighters-
So sad.
so very sad.
those 43 years and how life has shifted for her is why I am going to DC
no more bullying me
You folks who kept redirecting me- no more.
the time has arrived- road trip already in action –
God Bless each and everyone….
Good post Woodsman–that WFGI sounds like a good organization doing good work and providing service to the fire fighter.
On Phingston and Harwood, if they have copies of unredacted material concerning the wild land fire at Yarnell, then should they really be interested in having the truth unraveled, then they would post those copies for all to see. WTKTT has shown that without a doubt those FOIA copies, once given out, become public information and allowable to be published for public inspection. I know Joy has certain FOIA’s and was of a mind at one time that she had to keep those out of the public eye or she might be sued for revealing such information.
So if Phingston and Harwood do have unredacted copies they certainly should share somewhere the information perhaps on their pod cast. To hold any information back would put me in the mind that they are like the book writers in trying to keep information to themselves for profit and to make it appear they are some sort of sleuth wizard. I like people that are out front –otherwise it appears they are into some nefarious workings. This business concerning the deaths of 19 people concerns all Americans and should not be some sneaky business controlled by a few.
**
** THE PFINGSTON / HARWOOD PODCASTS ( CONTINUED )
**
** THE BLUE RIDGE CREW MEMBER INTERVIEW
In addition to stating that they have their own UNREDACTED copies ( obtained via their own standard FOIA request ) of the original Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs… Pfingston and Harwood also mention that, despite the ‘gag’ order placed on the entire Blue Ridge crew, THEY were able to ‘interview’ one of them in the living room of Juliann Aschcraft’s home, at some unknown time.
But, just like they then fail to mention much of anything about any ‘new’ information in the UNREDACTED logs, they don’t say much about this ‘interview’, either.
Here are the only TWO places in the entire podcast where they ‘reveal’ anything that came out of that ‘interview with a Blue Ridge crew member’.
PODCAST SERIES TITLE: Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 03: Command or Lack of Command Arrives on the Fire
Published: March 1, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-3-Command-or-Lack-of-Command-Arrives-on-the-Fire-e3at7s
Episode 3, Part 2
+8:15
———————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: Now we’re at 8:00 AM ( on Sunday, June 30, 2013 )… and Blue Ridge, another Type 1 Hotshot crew, arrives on the fire, and we’re told by Blue Ridge interviews, and also by a personal interview we had with a Blue Ridge crew member, that they arrived on this fire and they just hung out in a parking lot waiting for instructions for 30 to 45 minutes and they were just doing nothing.
The crew member that we talked to in our living room said “we were twiddling our thumbs”… and in Blue Ridge’s interview they say that they were just begging for information.
( snip )
Doug Harwood: but …but yeah… for the first part they just… uh… there wasn’t anybody to give them any updates or get them going.
Deborah Pfingston: Another thing that the Blue Ridge crew member said to us is that… uhm… their supe and their captain were saying “You know… we gotta get on this fire. We gotta get some stuff done, or Granite Mountain’s gonna rub it in… that we were just standin’ around while they were doin’ all the work”… and I thought that was kind of cute. But he… you know…
———————————————————————————————————
PODCAST Episode 6: Hiking the Path
Published: April 8, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-6-Hiking-the-Path-e3m5su
Episode 6, Part 2.
+8:30
——————————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston: We even met with a crew member of Blue Ridge secretly… because remember… Blue Ridge was put under a huge gag order and no one was allowed to speak to us. Uhm… but this Blue Ridge crew member contacted us and came to… uhm… Andrew and Juliann’s home and met with us and reinforced… IC command didn’t know what they were doing. It was complete chaos. Blue Ridge was trying to find something to do. Uhm… the radios weren’t working. It… it was just a complete mess. And so he reiterated all of it… and that’s everything that we can… everything we heard was that it was chaos, chaos, chaos.
———————————————————————————————————
Even though the quotes above match exactly what Brian Frisby wrote in one of his own emails about how there was ‘chaos’ at Yarnell and that the human factors were ( in Frisby’s own words ) “off the charts that day”… it’s actually not likely that Frisby, himself, was the Blue Ridge crew member that went to Juliann Ashcraft’s home.
Because Pfingston actually says the following up above…
“Another thing that the Blue Ridge crew member said to us is that… uhm… their supe and their captain were saying “You know… we gotta get on this fire”.
So unless Pfingston was being extremely clever in trying to hide this Blue Ridge crew member’s identity… the fact that she reports the crew member referring to something his ‘supe’ and ‘captain’ were saying in the 3rd person means he was neither the actual ‘supe’ ( Brian Frisby ) or the ‘captain’ ( Trueheart Brown )… and was just one of the other Blue Ridge crew members that day.
WTKTT –thank you again for these revelations. I looked at their report and about all I could see that they add is that they now say the truth was not told about the Yarnell Fire incident. I see that Willis has teamed up with them on that note. He will have some back peddling to do since he gave so many false statements. So I wonder when Donut is going to chime in with them.
I coined Donut the slow nut since he has yet to give up what he really knows and was so adamant to withhold from the beginning.
It has been a long Journey but now we are seeing people come forth==I wonder if that was because they know that Joy has the goods and is in line to give them out. She has presented much evidence in Montana and I expect to see much more come out by July. The house without a foundation is beginning to fall apart and it is great to see that some of the loved ones have started to realize they have been bamboozled. Their access to the truth of what happened to kill the GMHS crew has an advantage since they are able to receive FOIA data without redactions. I hope Phingston and Amanda are not the only ones accessing the FOIA’s without redaction. You can see they have held on to the truth for some time but I think many of the other loved ones will begin to look into this situation.
I believe Harwood was actually on the fire edge at Yarnell during the catastrophe.
It must have been hard for him and Willis and a few others that have conscience and claim religious affiliation to have held back the truth for so long. I can understand the peer pressure and especially that from above and Amanda and others who have agendas.
I hope Ed comes forth also–he had information but was threatened so he was worried at the time we met him with John Daugherty to get his testimony. He was listening to radios and has much anger the way things were presented since he knew they had posted lies but only had three years to retire from his job with fear of retirement loss. These jobs are set up so the boss can fire you if you speak without their review of what you know and only if they allow. His testimony now should be available since it has been six years and they can no longer threaten him about his retirement. I think that will happen as well with some others that feared their jobs at the time the made up story about the deaths of GMHS was officially espoused.
Joy said nothing was acknowledged about the retardant and health effects on the elderly that was so obvious in Yarnell after the massive slurry drops about and on the residential area of Yarnell. That does not surprise me since the retardant is a multibillion dollar industry. I noticed even the Jets are going beyond Jumbo to address the new evil maxifires. Use evil to fight evil I suppose except there are a bunch of wild land fire fighters that know in instances like Yarnell where the winds are 20-50mph, the retardant is about as useless as tits on a boar hog. Yarnell slurry drops could not be justified considering the ill effects on people, especially the elderly who died in scores withing the 6 years after the 2013 pollutants were dumped and the three years after the 2015 Tenderfoot fire when more loads of polluting retardant were dispersed.
You do not have to be a scientist to verfy what I have said about the ammonium luing killing solution and the known poisons produced when that retardant lands on a hot fire. And only a few know what other chemicals are added under trade secret laws. But you are not going to bad mouth this stuff if you are in the fire fighting business, that is if you want to continue with your job.
I say hallelujah to the truth–I might even do a little holy rolling with a little holy Irish grog after all we have been through to see now that the facts are finally floating to the top.
I could weep deeply
Actually I am.
Naturally drenching flow
These words “their supe and their captain were saying “You know… we gotta get on this fire”.”
I know its moments away when I plan to speak yet I also know those words from a firefighter.
Please first hand people do not place this burden on me or Pfingston…speak up…I am locked in to present yet encourage you to do this now versus after I do.
This is the right thing to do.
Speak up.
First hand is what the world needs too not just me and Pfingston and selected others.
If you wont on IM and you just want anonymity through this all…if you are not the same FFs who I already am gonna present in a very classy way about…please join the rest…the numbers continue to grow…email me at [email protected]
Time is now.
I don’t see any burden on Phingston or Harwood–they had the facts all along and as far as I can see have revealed little beyone acknowledging that the true story was not put forth. I think that their testimonies will pale beside some that are coming forward with the facts. The IM people have all kept this pressure on and rightfully so. Joy, you have been among the top of the list doing that and your efforts have been paying well. Add all the expertise of wild land fire fighters with decades of wild land fire fighting experience and this mystery will not go unsolved.
A thought–when someone holds evidence and knowledge of wrong doing and withholds it from the loved ones and the public both of whom rightfull require that evidence of truth, then it will be no burden to release it. On the contrary , it will lift a burden from the individual secreting that information should he or she be of good conscience.
Unfortunately there are a few who would withhold information that rigtfully belongs to the loved ones and the public supportiing the system by tax dollars. Wildland fire operations are strictly publicly financed operations. The people working in them are public servants–they are not entities unto themselves as some would like to be. There is absolutely no reason that information should be redacted to the public, except of course where personal addresses, phone numbers and the like are concerned. But all their actions on the job should be available and accountable for.
Yet with the the Yarnell incident the public has been treated as enemy number 1. I have seen Joy and others attempting to get FOIA information–even having to sue to get them–while the denials and delays given people doing such break the law. But the officials do not care, since they are not held personally responsible and the tax dollars wind up paying any fines should a judge even enforce the law. .Any official in charge of FOIA public information that denies and delays that information to the public should be immediately dismissed.
It is public oversight that will not only help keep the safety rules in effect and observed and as well, the public needs a keen look into where their money is being spent and how these jobs are being managed.
Re read–been busy digging a fish pond and dog swimming hole. Down about 6 ft. now and a good square of about 10x 10 with half of it shallow.. Well fish can like a 20 ft. deep hole so that is in mind.
So I was a little foggy there–any bloke that does not respect the rights of the taxpayer that pays his livelihood by the misdemeanor or felony of withholding FOIA information should be immediately fired. Maybe a good flogging would be in order as well. There is after all only one thing I can think of and that is the with holder is part of a scandal to cover up facts that belong to any interested tax payer that donates his hard earned money toward these operations.
That flogging need not be physical nor a little water boarding –just thinking a little extreme, but people ought to understand the magnitude of denying citizen rights.
Reply to Charlie post on May 28, 2019 at 4:20 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It is public oversight that will not only help keep
>> the safety rules in effect and observed and as well,
>> the public needs a keen look into where their money
>> is being spent and how these jobs are being managed.
Dúirt go maith ( Well said ).
The Freedom of Information Act is not perfect… but it’s scary to think where we would be without it.
Here’s something else that was ‘well said’.
It’s what President Lyndon B. Johnson said the day he signed the Freedom of Information Act into LAW…
—————————————————————————-
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE – JULY 4, 1966
THE WHITE HOUSE
STATEMENT BY THE PRESIDENT UPON SIGNING
S. 1160 – THE FREEDOM OF INFORMATION ACT.
The measure I signed today, S. 1160, revises Section 3 of the Administrative Procedure Act to provide guidelines for the public availability of the records of Federal departments and agencies.
This legislation springs from one of the most ESSENTIAL principles: a democracy works BEST when the PEOPLE have ALL THE INFORMATION that the security of the nation permits. NO ONE should be able to PULL CURTAINS OF SECRECY around decisions which can be revealed without injury to the public interest.
( snip )
I have always believed that FREEDOM OF INFORMATION is so VITAL that ONLY the national security, NOT the desire of public officials or private citizens, should determine when it must be restricted.
I signed this legislation with a deep sense of pride that the United States is an OPEN SOCIETY in whch the PEOPLE’S RIGHT TO KNOW is CHERISHED and GUARDED.
Signed;
Lyndon Baines Johnson
The 36th President of the United States of America.
—————————————————————————–
Wow–thanks WTKTT–you have made plain the law to those law breakers whom have been refusing, delaying and tampering with evidence. I hope they receive the full punishment of the law with all the confusion, time loss and frustration they have cause to people requesting FOIA information.
Joy might have to get a friend to request the FOIA for her. There are plenty who want to know the facts of what killed the GMHS crew.
I thought I had before posted this-Your explanation is excellent on the importance of FOIA releases. It is good reading to the people that want to act like they are the only ones privileged to have and retain that information. I would hope Peeples Valley Fire Department, Yarnell Fire Department and others that Joy has been so denied records read your comments. There is a nasty infection that has spread among many of the fire departments that seem to think the public has no business knowing what they are doing.
When Joy attempts renewed FOIA unredacted she would do well to include the post by WTKTT about Lyndon Johnson’s statements with copy of the law itself. I do believe some of the people fulfilling the FOIA requests are not aware of the law nor its consequences for failure to preform their duties nor the importance to do such.
Certainly most of the fire fighting people want to be proud American law abiding citizens and the few who are not need weeding out. The standards of the fire fighting person must represent the highest degree of integrity and law abiding.
Where a law suit is required to get information and that person causing the suit is found at fault for refusal of information or wrongfully altering that information by redaction or other means then it would follow that person should be removed from office. That individual would be a blight on the system considering the frustrations, costs and neglect to duties due the taxpayer paying his salary. People on taxpayer accounts and paychecks should make every effort to assist those interested in how their monies are being used. The people have every right to oversee those serving the public interest.
The name harwood still rings to me like I heard it before…maybe in my GMHS return of documents…it might be ringing because when I was building the case on the ill serious gossip I saw this Spring I remember a Jessica Harwood – I wonder if Doug is tied to her than that means the circle up there is pretty solid and if Ms. Pfingston is very serious on learning facts and truths than just keep watching IM because like I said long ago as it trickles out —IM will be the place to go or the blog ( http://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com ) and as for Montana and Wyoming – it is also coming the data and my first staff ride post and the transcripts recently of John Truett.
Hey Sonny- I did not see any email on the hole dug
I saw the words but not the photo
Sorry about the name dealio but its a notary dealio
I cc’d her-
This is a very important week for me Sonny so my focus is on REVELATIONS from June 1st to August 1st, 2019 so anything external I have to say nope to but just run it by her…I am not near my cell or internet for a long while but I will try…
Happy Summer!
Also Ms. Pfingston I will be at the learning center event or just use the proton to proton email or I will be at the Memorial Run so we can catch up there too. In case you change your mind, my door is open and always has been-
Some areas you would have to wait until my presentation just to ensure no one affects that area because a lot of hard work and important people will be present for it. I was never writing a book but I always wanted the right political people to know in hopes changes come about-
Tex Gilligan
11:11 AM (2 minutes ago)
to Arizona.Desert.Walker
Yes it is hard to leave the click once you are in it–why the Holly, Amanda, Debra etc keep following the lie. But they hurt themselves and took a pittance for the wrongful deaths when they should have gotten millions. They might still do it if they turn to the truth and say they were deceived which in fact they were. But the worse concerns were the hundreds of elderly and others killed at Yarnell from the chemicals–You and I were both victims, me more than you. My heart attacks occurred only a few months after the retardant drops. My cancers escalated to the degree I am now scarred all over my face from their removal. None of my family died of heart disease and my Dad died of prostate cancer because he carried a hot piece of uranium in his pocket for years. I think he thought uranium was a cure factor. But something in that chemical slop causes the human system to go berserk and causes everything from heart attack to cancer. The ammoium causes a depletion of oxygen to the system by destroying lung cells. It sets up plaque increase and other problems and people with already taxed immune systems (i.e. elderly) are the main victims–but there is a chemical composition which we do not yet know hidden. I do not know the length of trade secret hiding allowedl–I thought 7 years, but it would be a time they have to allow knowledge of what they did to people.
I should add, do not take my opinion as that of what Joy would say or opines. My posts and opinions are my own. I certainly am not a part of the click and would not be influenced by their antics nor pressured by any of their peers to following a line such as we saw at Yarnell. Indeed by reading the posts of IM participants you will see that most of these posts are strictly unbiased because the long time fire persons posting are not in the circle where they have to go along with a line of crap such as was fed to the public concerning the tragedy at Yarnell of 2013 .
**
** FORMER GM HOTSHOT DOUG HARWOOD SAYS AIR ATTACK
** SAW 2 FIREFIGHTERS DOING A BURNOUT.
At least THREE TIMES in the recently-published Pfingston / Harwood PODCASTS, former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood says that one of the Air Attacks has testified to seeing 2 firefighters doing a ‘burnout’ in ‘Division Z’. in Yarnell, on Sunday, June 30, 2013.
Here are the first THREE times Doug Harwood brings this up in the PODCASTS…
*** PODCAST Episode 3, Part 5
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-3-Command-or-Lack-of-Command-Arrives-on-the-Fire-e3at7s
At the point where they are discussing ‘Division Z’ ( Rance Marquez )…
+3:16
——————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood: And it seems like his ( DIVSZ’s ) first job would be to find a… a division break because he’s gonna be the division… and it just never happened… for whatever reason… but it never happened that day. According to him. And this comes into confusion later because obviously operations thought that there was a division break… along Sesame Street.
So he… that mighta been… some people thought that that was a division there.
And later on there’s a… uh… in… within these interview notes… Air Attack, later on in the fire, says that he sees two firefighters burning along… burning out in Division Z.
And there is not a single extra question about that in the SAIR interview.
They say there’s a burnout on Division Z… which could be right there on Sesame Street… which could be right below where Granite Mountain ends up working… and there’s not another question about it.
———————————————————————————————————
*** PODCAST Episode 4, Part 6
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-4-All-the-Dominoes-Line-Up-to-Tragedy-e3fp08
At the point where they are discussing the Air Attack ‘swap out’ at 3:50 PM, when Rory Collins’ pilot was about to time-out and Collins quickly handed the AA duties over to Thomas French and John Burfiend flying in “Bravo 33″…
+0:23
———————————————————————————————————
Doug Harwood: One of those Air Attacks, according to the SAIR, oversaw two firefighters doing a burnout somewhere during this time.
Deborah Pfingston: But yet… they don’t question it.
Doug Harwood: No… no other questions about that.
———————————————————————————————————
*** PODCAST Episode 6, Part 3
At the point where they are discussing some of the ‘hikes’ they have both taken in the ‘Sesame Street’ area…
+8:33
——————————————————————————————————-
Deoborah Pfingston: Whenever we would go to do their path.. whenever we would follow their trail… whenever we would go to see where the buggies were or the dozer or… uhm… even to the fatality site… we always ended up having to go in on Sesame Street. Uhm… I remember walking through burned-out houses and over… uhm… burned-out… uh… barbed wire… uhm… and… and through a coupla washes, but we always ended up on Sesame Street… it seems like every time we did it… and then… we started… uhm FOIAing… uh… Freedom of Information Act… uh… interview notes and getting… receiving them and, again,getting emails and then talking to other crew mem… members anonymously… it led us to really FOCUS on the Sesame Street area.
Doug Harwood: Yeah. As soon as we saw those interview notes and you see Air Attack saying two firefightes are “lighting off in Division Z”… and you realize that a lot of people really thought that Division Z was basically Sesame Street…
Deborah Pfingston: Mmm-Hmm. ( agrees ).
Doug Harwood: it just puts you right… you know… right in that… I mean… it’s just an obvious thing.
Deborah Pfingston: Well… we made a reference in an earlier episode about how we were standing on Sesame Street talking, and your… you have your back to Yarnell, literally, and I’m using the word as… you know… a… the straight definition… literally you look left and you look right up to the fatality site.
Doug Harwood: Yup. You follow a bowl straight to them.
Deborah Pfingston: Straight to ’em.
———————————————————————————————————
But here’s the conundrum with these Harwood statements…
In the FIRST reference to this ‘quote’ from Air Attack, Harwood simply says it was “within the interview notes”.
In the SECOND reference to this ‘quote’ from Air Attack, Harwood attributes it to the SAIR itself, saying “according to the SAIR”.
But in the THIRD reference… Harwood seems to suggest that this ‘quote’ from Air Attack was only revealed when they finally got copies of the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge ‘Interview Notes’.
So… very confusing as to WHERE Harwood is even trying to say this quote exists.
It is obviously NOT “according to the SAIR”, as he said in his SECOND reference. There is no such quote anywhere in the final SAIR document.
It also does not seem to appear anywhere in the actual ‘SAIT Interview Notes’, from any AA interview or anywhere else.
All I can find in the original ‘SAIT Interview Notes’ that even has a chance of matching what Harwood is reporting would be the following TWO entries…
SAIT INTERVIEW NOTES – AIR ATTACK ‘BRAVO 33’ INTERVIEW
—————————————————————————————————–
No mention of ‘2 firefighters’, but John Burfiend does reference ‘DIVZ’ and a possible ‘burnout’…
—————————————————————————————————–
Bravo 33 Interview on July 9, 2013 at 1700 hours.
3 people in the same interview…
John Burfiend – ATS Specialist
Clint Clauson ( Clawson? ) – ATS Trainee
Thomas French – Pilot – AT Specialist
NOTE: Bravo 33 had been ‘lead plane’ but then became both ‘lead plane’ AND ‘Air Attack’ when Rory Collins left the fire at 3:50 PM. John Burfiend was handling the Air-To-Ground radio traffic and Thomas French was handling the Air-To-Air radio traffic from 3:50 PM until the time of deployment.
On PDF page 14 ( of 60 pages )…
( This appears to be John Burfiend talking, at this point in the interview )…
I knew there was 2 structural groups. I wrote down 2. Tom said “hey dude, you are the air attack”.
He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out. He had to leave.
We decided we were going to go here ( pointed to Div Z ) and go direct. Took the single SEAT.
I was confused as to whether it was a burnout or a spot.
Brand new pilot (830) went right between spot and the home. We brought the DC10 in and ops mentioned pretreating the road. Didn’t understand that. Communicated that we could dial back to coverage level 4 if they were ready to light the match. He agreed.
———————————————————————————————————
There has also always been the following in Air-Attack Rory Collins’ SAIT interview notes, but it’s never been clear what TIMEFRAME Collins is referring to here.
Collins left the fire at 3:50 PM… and there is no photographic evidence to support what he seems to be saying here in his SAIT interview…
SAIT INTERVIEW NOTES – AIR ATTACK ‘RORY COLLINS’ INTERVIEW
——————————————————————————————————–
On PDF page 20 ( of 60 pages )…
Q: Was there any discussion with Div. Z?
A: Yes, saw a crew from Z and A running fire north and south.
No one explained the breaks. I did get a contact for the structural
protection group (2) and had contact with them as well.
——————————————————————————————————–
There is NOTHING in the available evidence documents which matches Harwood’s ( new ) specific statement…
——————————————————————————————————–
Doug Harwood:: Air Attack, later on in the fire, says that he sees two firefighters burning along… burning out in Division Z.
——————————————————————————————————–
So it remains a ‘mystery’ what ‘Air Attack quote’ Doug Harwood is actually referring to in the new PODCASTS.
If this ‘Air Attack’ statement only appears in some UNREDACTED copy they have of something, I wish they would just PUBLISH that document so this ‘new’ mystery could be resolved.
It sounds as if Div Z were along the Sesame St area and doing a burn out which would be just below the bowl. If that were so then Marsh and for certain Steed would have been looking directly at the burn out and Donut’s story of embers crossing as he took exit would ring true. But I am certain now there were about 3 burns going on in that area including below Helms, Sesame St. and the Shrine area. That place was lighted up so they could get a black zone before the fire turned south. Steed and Marsh had to know the gravity of dropping off into that bowl with those burns going–but Marsh had instructions and had to make muster.
I think this is how it will play out, and locatiing the burns and times and people that did them will come out soon as I am informed by good sources. Mainly those here on IM.
Reply to Charlie post on May 29, 2019 at 1:45 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It sounds as if Div Z were along the Sesame St area
>> and doing a burn out which would be just below the bowl.
DIVS Z ( Rance Marquez ) was nowhere near Yarnell in this timeframe. He had gone back up to the command post in Peeples Valley earlier in the day, and never returned to Yarnell until after the deployment.
In the half-hour prior to the deployment, DIVSZ Rance Marquez was ‘sighted’ participating in structure defense up north in the Sickles Ranch Road area.
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> If that were so then Marsh and for certain Steed would have
>> been looking directly at the burn out and Donut’s story of
>> embers crossing as he took exit would ring true.
There were no ’embers crossing the road’ when Brian Frisby stumbled across Donut leaving his lookout position, and the two of them drove back east to the top of the Sesame Street clearing where the GM command vehicles were staged. All the photos taken by Christopher Mackenzie from up where GM was ‘staged’ before moving south prove that… as well as Donut’s own photos that he took circa 3:49 PM, looking northwest from the GM command vehicles.
Brendan is LYING about that ( probably just to make his ‘story’ match more closely to the scene in the movie versus reality ).
>> Charlie also said…
>>
>> But I am certain now there were about 3 burns going on in
>> that area including below Helms, Sesame St. and the Shrine area.
>> That place was lighted up so they could get a black zone before
>> the fire turned south.
The last photo that Christoper Mackenzie took from up at the ‘rest spot’, at 3:56 PM ( looking DIRECTLY back at the Shrine area, Yarnell, and the Helms ) shows clearly that no such things were happening in ANY of those locations, at least as late as 3:56 PM.
WTKTT,
If I may, I read Sonnys post to mean he was referring to the “geographic location” on the fire “DIV Z”, not the individual assigned responsibility for it who is also referred to as “DIV Z.” I may be wrong but i dont think so. Read it again with my interpretation.
“>> Charlie said…
>>
>> It sounds as if Div Z were along the Sesame St area
>> and doing a burn out which would be just below the bowl.
DIVS Z ( Rance Marquez ) was nowhere near Yarnell in this timeframe. He had gone back up to the command post in Peeples Valley earlier in the day, and never returned to Yarnell until after the deployment.”
I guess I should ask Sonny himself, did you mean DIV Z geographic area resources burning out or DIV Z Marquez?
What resources were assigned to DIV Z and what were they doing? Was DIV Z ever staffed? Thanks & sorry if this has been gone over before. We ARE rolling up on SIX YEARS with this thing…
Reply to Woodsman post on May 29, 2019 at 5:02 pm
>> Woodsman asked…
>>
>> What resources were assigned to DIV Z?
None.
>> and what were they doing?
Nothing.
>> Was DIV Z ever staffed?
Nope.
Air Attack Rory Collins THOUGHT he knew where ‘Division Z’ MIGHT have been… since he was flying the fire when DIVSA Eric Marsh and DIVSZ Rance Marquez had that ‘radio fight’ about picking a division break… but Collins left the fire at 3:50 PM and never even passed on what he THOUGHT he knew to Thomas French and John Burfiend in “Bravo 33”.
There is some evidence that OPS1 Abel and OPS2 Musser also THOUGHT they knew were ‘Division Z’ was… but they, themselves, never assigned any resourced to it.
From the SAIT inteview with OPS1 Todd Abel and OPS2 Paul Musser…
——————————————————————-
Marsh called Abel on the cell phone and mentioned there was some intense communication between himself and Marquez on the Division break between Alpha and Zula. They worked it out and the Blue Ridge hotshot crew was assigned to Division Alpha. Marsh described Division break to Abel.
——————————————————————-
So even if their had been a real decision about where the hell ‘Division Z’ was… the only resource down there that wasn’t directly part of Gary Cordes’ Structure Protection Group 1 ( the Blue Ridge Hotshots ) weren’t even assigned to the mysterious ‘Division Z’.
And even Blue Ridge just ended up thinking they were ‘working’ for SPGS1 Cordes… and not DIVSA Eric Marsh.
Total chaos. Total confusion.
My mistake on that Woodsman since I was thinking location –but WTKTT corrected that.
Reply to Woodsman post on May 29, 2019 at 4:54 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> If I may, I read Sonnys post to mean he was referring to
>> the “geographic location” on the fire “DIV Z”, not the
>> individual assigned responsibility for it who is also
>> referred to as “DIV Z.” I may be wrong but i dont think so.
>> Read it again with my interpretation.
I did ( reread it with your interpretation ).
My interpretation is still the same as what prompted my reply.
The sentence…
“It sounds as if Div Z were along the Sesame St area and doing a burn out which would be just below the bowl.”
…still sounds ( to me ) as if he was referring to DIVZ the PERSON, and/or people who considered themselves to be ‘DIVZ crew’, or something, since the sentence claims “THEY were doing a burnout”.
So just on the off chance that IS what was being claimed… I felt the need to point out that DIVZ ( the PERSON ) was nowhere near Yarnell in the later afternoon, prior to the deployment.
And there was, of course, no “DIVSZ crew”.
Beyond the person who is in CHARGE of the ‘area’ being simply CALLED ‘DIVZ’…. It really is just a geographical reference.
In Yarnell… this DIVZ was just an ’empty division’. Marquez went back up north and there really were no ‘crews’ in the Yarnell area who knew that a ‘DIVZ’ even existed… much less identifying as part of it.
But the context of this discussion is about what Doug Harwood is claiming in the recent PODCASTS… and what the AIR guys did or didn’t think . Accordiing to Harwood… some Air Attack ( later in the day ) THOUGHT he knew where ‘DIVZ’ was… and THOUGHT he might have seen something happening there.
I’m not sure this ‘quote’ even exists, since Harwood is/was being so obtuse about where he thinks he even saw it.
Copy all of that. Thanks!
Followup…
Beyond the fact that Doug Harwood has made it almost impossible to tell WHERE he says he has seen this new ‘quote’ from Air Attack about “seeing burnouts in Division Z”… the other conundrum is that this totally contradicts what Air Attack “Bravo 33” actually TESTIFIED to.
Harwood said it was the Air Attack who was there “later in the day”.
Well, Air Attack Rory Collins left the fire abruptly at 3:50 PM, and he ‘handed off” all Air Attack duties to Thomas French and John Burfiend in ‘Bravo 33’… and they were ‘Air Attack ‘ over Yarnell from 3:50 PM on through the deployment itself.
So ‘Bravo 33′ must be the Air Attack Harwood is referring to in the PODCASTS.
But Thomas French and John Burfiend testified to the SAIT that they had no friggn’ idea about any ‘Division breaks’ on the fire.
In other words… they didn’t know “Division Z” from a carrot.
From PDF page 16 of the “SAIT Investigation Notes”, in the middle of their ‘interview’ with “Bravo” ( Thomas French and John Burfiend ).
Here are the parts where they describe the piss-poor swapout briefing they received from Air Attack Rory Collins, at 3:50 PM.,
and what they did NOT know as a result of that…
——————————————————————
We had been there about 1 1/2 hours when air attack on the scene
( Rory Collins ) told us he had to leave.
He also stated that his relief pilot was unable to make it and his pilot timed out.
It was a strange change out. He ( Collins ) just said “you have the fire, I’m leaving”.
Tom ( Thomas French ) said “hey dude, you are the air attack”.
I knew there was 2 structural groups. I wrote down 2.
I never got divisions from the briefing. Didn’t know there were divisions.
Air attack ( Collins ) didn’t tell me there were resources in the area.
I didn’t know that Blue Ridge was there until we were home watching the news.
——————————————————————
“I never got divisions from the briefing. Didn’t know there were divisions.”
So it remains a mystery what in the hell Doug Harwood is talking about in these recent PODCASTS.
If they HAVE the PROOF of these ‘statements’… I wish they would just PUBLISH it somewhere instead of just adding to the confusion.
It would be interesting to know more about Harwood–was he on the fire at Yarnell and how and why is he teamed up with Phingston. I understand he is a Prescott fire fighter but was he present at the Yarnell fire?
In the recently published Pfngston / Harwood PODCASTS, Harwood himself says he was a GM Hotshot from 2004 through 2008.
Some of that was ‘fill in’ work… as in the day that GM was told they had ‘passed’ the Type 1 Training and were now a fully established Type 1 Hotshot Crew.
Also in the podcasts, Harwood tells the “story” of being there with GM when that happened… .and he confirms the story that Marsh just gathered them together and scraped the “T” ( for ‘Trainee’ ) off of one of the trucks… and that was his way of ‘telling’ them they were now a certified Type 1 crew.
Harwood also says he met Pfingston the day the SAIR report was released. He was there. He knew ( as moany others did ) that the SAIR was just a ‘whitewash’ and he went on to be a Board Member in Deborah Pfingston’s “Wildland Firefighter Guardian Institute”, which Pfngston ( and Roxanne Warneke and Julliann Ashcraft ) started with the money they received from settling their “wrongful death” lawsuits.
Pfingston and Harwood remained Board members for the WFGI until August of last year… when they both suddenly “disappeared” from the roster of that organization.
It remains a mystery why they didn’t just STAY at the WFGI and publish their “findings” as members of that organization.
Forgot to add… Prescott Firefighter Doug Harwood was NOT at the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
In the PODCASTS… he says he was on vacation with his family in Louisiana when he saw the news of the fatalities on television.
**
** THE UNREDACTED BLUE RIDGE LOGS ( CONTINUED )
So now that Pfingston / Harwood are reporting that Granite Mountain WAS, in fact, “calling for help” on various TAC channels prior to the final A2G call… and that Blue Ridge WAS hearing those other calls for help… let’s see WHERE in their logs Pfingston and Harwood might now be seeing what is ‘under the redactions’.
The following is the very last paragraph of Brian Frisby’s handwritten Unit Log from the document that was publicly released.
Frisby is describing the moments prior to the deployment, when he and his Captain, Trueheart Brown, were “chasing” all the other FFs OUT of the Shrine Road Youth Camp area.
Notice that the log has been CUT OFF right at the moment when Frisby would have started hearing any ’emergency’ radio calls from Granite Mountain…
———————————————————————————————————-
I then told ( Redacted, probably ‘Trueheart Brown’ ) we needed to drive up the draw and push those guys out. Our crew had loaded up and left. As we got up the draw we ran into a group of 3 or 4 folks, we told them they needed to get in their trucks and leave. The individual said they were leaving but there were more and they weren’t listening. We kept driving up the draw and saw the rest of them pushing out. We told them they needed to hurry and we followed them out. When we got back to their trucks I stressed to them that they needed to hurry. We were getting mulitple spots and…
———————————————————————————————————
That’s it.
That’s the END of Brian Frisby’s Unit Log, as released to the public back in 2013. I
It has always been ‘CUT OFF’ as shown above.
There is NOTHING ELSE that covers Frisby’s activities and observations for the rest of the day… including the deployment and then ALL the things he and Captain Brown did ‘searching’ for GM and becoming 2 of the first 5 FFs ( along with PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ) to arrive at the deployment site.
So if Pfingston / Harwood really did receive UNREDACTED copies of ALL the Blue Ridge Logs… I wonder if THEY actually received the complete ‘missing pages’ from the END of Brian Frisby’s log?
They ( Pfingston / Harwood ) don’t say anything about that one way or the other in their ‘podcasts’.
Now here is the same timeframe, covered in Blue Ridge Captain Trueheart Brown’s REDACTED Unit log.
The “XXXXXs” represent the REDACTIONS…
——————————————————————————————————-
We drive up the wash and find engine crews hiking out and we urge them to move as fast as they can. The ( Blue Ridge ) crew arrives at the staging area ( the Ranch House Restaurant ). We all get back to the youth camp and get them all driving out and we bring up the rear. We drive out a ways and run into ( PNF employees Jason Clawson, Aaron Hulburd and KC ‘Bucky’ Yowell ). We give them the intel we have and then we all head out towards the highway. There are still people milling about in town. We decide to tie back in with the crew. So we head out to the highway and head south ( towards the Ranch House Restaurant ).
( The next 8 full lines in Brown’s log are TOTALLY REDACTED )…
1640 – XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
1655 – Radio traffic is overheard on A/G or TAC about Granite Mountain IHC needing to depply shelters and they were in the process of cutting deployment site and trying to burn around it. No other radio traffic is heard from Granite Mountain over TAC or A/G.
———————————————————————————————————
So those 8 full lines of REDACTED text shown above, in Brown’s Unit Log, are most likely where he might have been reporting hearing Granite Mountain “calling for help” on various TAC radio channels PRIOR to the final callout on the A2G channel, which was recorded by Aaron Hulburd.
If Harwood / Pfingston really do have UNREDACTED copies of these logs… I wish they would just POST them somewhere online so they can be compared to the original REDACTED version(s).
They must be talking about the draw that goes up from the Shrine area–that was the best way to hike through there and an ATV could have gone that route. About a mile or mile and quarter above the shrine the draw connects with a road that up a rise and perhaps half to three quarters of a mile connects to the Sesame street dirt trail that ends up connecting to the two track.
Certainly the redactions are part of the cover up and hopefull Phinston and others that might have copies will produce the redactions or at least testify to what they say.
This Yarnell incident is the most amazing wild fire containment bumble that wild land fire fighters can claim. History was made that day and once revealed to its true nature will be the world’s topmost example and instruction on how not to fight wild fires and how not to kill your entire crew by foolish endeavors.
Having been only a witness and not a wild land fire fighter I can only remember what cowboy McKensey said–“now you boys don’t get youselves caught down there in that manzanita”. McKensey knew enough to follow a common sense safety rule of always having an escape route without the education of the elite educated GMHS bosses. It will always amaze me of how those crew bosses, so well educated in wild land fire fighting, would not have the sense of a cowboy and break every one of their own safety rules to end up killing their crew.
Well Phingston ought to come out with the facts–her son passed and she knows the pain that all go through in loosing a loved one. My passing the rock monument I helped Joy place on the mountain side was always a hard thing for me. It stirred the sadness and memories of my on loss of a young son. So I certainly sympathize with the loved ones and am happy they are getting the truth of why their sons were killed.
Thanks WTKTT–It is quite apparant that Harwood and Phingston are biased by their association to the Prescott area fire fighting brother and sisterhood.
It has held Donut, Willis, and so many others in its clutches. It has choked out the real truth on the basis that the group could do no wrong. It is just too hard for some to handle the truth.
Thanks WTKTT–It is quite apparant that Harwood and Phingston are biased by their association to the Prescott area fire fighting bro
WTKTT–said there was a lot to be unpacked– very true since there were pages and pages of redacted material in all the FOIA’s and especially those from Blue Ridge operation reports. Phingston had received unredacted FOIA’s so I checked with Joy and her FOIA from Blue Ridge are all redacted.
It behooves Phingston to come forth with the facts she recovered on the unredacted FOIA reports–not only to be true to herself and whatever God she respects–but more importantly to share facts among the public and friends of wild land fire fighters whose tax monies support the wild land fire fighter heroes, and more importantly that those loved ones who are unaware of how they have been deceived should be given the absolute truth of how the GMHS crew came into such horrible deaths. Speaking of myself and having lost a beloved son, I could never carry such information knowing it rightfully belongs to all whom have lost family in that horrible tragedy.
That was always to me one of the reasons I could never see Donut as a solid individual. How he held back what he knew from the beginning was higher in criminality than his earlier escapades that had led him to prison. To deceive and withhold information, especially from loved ones, speaks to his character. But also, friends and tax payers of concern to the truth are owed. But not least is the fact that withholding information detracts from the safety of future fire fighters and will lead to more unnecessary, needless and careless deaths of future wild land fire fighters. If all that would not be a burden to a good conscience then we can only conclude that some have no conscience.
Redactions, omissions, mum orders, threats and job concerns have all led to helping the state not pay proper monies to the loved ones. It also allows fighting wild land fires to escalate the risk factor well beyond the already risky job it is. The wild land fire fighter is wrongfully underpaid–but to add more risk to an underpaid job is criminal.
I understand there is an upcoming shindig to amass more money in honor of the GMHS crew. Money seems to be the focus of these affairs and how little the topic of why the GMHS crew were killed and what can be done to change things from their examples of skirting safety rules.
Perhaps it is fitting then that they have Donut as an honored speaker. He is for certainly the prime example of ignorance when it comes to safety and according to his words are “hillbilly”. It is one thing to sympathize with his loss of friends, if indeed they were all of accord with him, but it is another thing when they use him as a public example of an exemplary fire person. His willingness to withhold truth and lack of intelligent wild land fire fighting methods, in my opinion, would ascribe him to a role of one kept in a low profile. Sympathize yet do not aggrandize. He ought to be hanging his head and hiding in Mexico rather than presenting before public. But I suppose the false front makes for good movies and fund raising. I just am not one to be so sympathetic–I lost a loved one and I know what I would feel toward his him, his ploys and his willingness to play along with the fictitious story of why they men are victims of the Yarnell wild land fire. Shame on the community for allowing his charade to continue.
Well at least we see some admission that Ms. Phingston realized she had made a deal with the devil. We know the state has made every effort to conceal the truth of the deaths at Yarnell from the public and conserve funds due loved ones for the careless deaths of the GMHS. So I would hope that since Ms. Phingston has the unredacted copies of Blue Ridge operations and perhaps other proofs of what really happened at Yarnell she would make these available to the other loved ones who might not be so sophisticated in obtaining FOIA’s and other investigative techniques. I am one such unsophisticated person and rely much on others here that are extremely well qualified to view the documents. However, if I had been one of the loved ones, then I certainly would want to read those documents concerning the death of my loved one.
If she really wanted professional opinions there are so many here to share data with. We have people with top credentials in investigative techniques. Some like Gary Olson and Dr. Ted Putnam have years of experience in these type investigations and their interest in the safety of wild land fire fighters continues with intense interest. WTKTT is probably the most expert and precise investigator I could name for processing information and giving unbiased results. Do not forget RTS who is on top of the ordeal at Yarnell. There are so many others you could consult who willingly give their valuable expertise and time to getting at the Yarnell Fire and most of those names are easily found here on IM.
I know for a fact that their interest is not to castigate anyone, but to allow the world and especially the wild land fire fighter community the truth of why the GMHS heroes lost their lives and how their plight can help the safety of future wild land fire fighting incidences.
Reply to Charlie post on May 26, 2019 at 10:25 am
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> Pfingston had received unredacted FOIA’s
>> so I checked with Joy and her FOIA from
>> Blue Ridge are all redacted.
It is ILLEGAL for any government agency to ‘discriminate’ in its FOIA responses.
In other words, if the agency feels like the response material should have any REDACTIONS that would qualify under the 9 allowed FOIA exemptions… then EVERYONE requesting the same material MUST receive the material with the same REDACTIONS in place.
If that material is ever released to ANYONE WITHOUT those redactions in place… tben ANYONE requesting the same material must ALSO receive the same UNREDACTED materials.
The United States Department of Justice
Guide to the Freedom of Information Act
https://www.justice.gov/sites/default/files/oip/legacy/2014/07/23/procedural-requirements.pdf#p65
On PDF page 65…
—————————————————————————————
Responding to FOIA Requests
The FOIA requires that each agency “shall make disclosable records promptly available” upon request. The FOIA does not provide for limited disclosure; rather, it “speaks in terms of disclosure and nondisclosure and ordinarily does not recognize degrees of disclosure, such as permitting viewing, but not copying, of documents.” Because the statute does not provide for limited disclosure, the Supreme Court has opined that there is also “no mechanism under the statute for a protective order allowing only the requester to see the information or for proscribing its general dissemination.” In short, “once there is disclosure, the information belongs to the general public.”
————————————————————————————-
“The Supreme Court has opined…”
“Once there is DISCLOSURE, the information belongs to the GENERAL PUBLIC.”
Once it has been decided to release anything, to anyone, WITHOUT certain redactions in place… ANY request for that same material can NEVER AGAIN be subject to any previous redactions.
So if Deborah Pfingston and Doug Harwood are now admitting ( in PUBLIC ) that THEY have received UNREDACTED copies of the Blue Ridge Hotshots Unit Yarnell Fire Logs back from U.S. Forestry in ‘response’ to a simple FOIA request… then ANYONE who requests the same material must now ALSO receive the same UNREDACTED material.
It’s the law.
Followup…
There is even ‘precedent’ here… if you are into that sort of detail.
Here’s just one case that involved ( drum-roll, please ) U.S. Forestry.
USFS actually wanted to try and get an FOIA ‘requestor’ to agree to a ‘confidentiality’ agreement.
A judge said… BULLSHIT.
NOTE: This case reference is actually a footnote in the same U.S. Department of Justice FOIA guide above.
——————————————————————————–
Favish, 541 U.S. at 174; see Maricopa Audobon Soc’y v. U.S. Forest Serv., 108 F.3d 1082, 1088-89 (9th Cir. 1997) (rejecting the plaintiff’s offer to receive the requested documents under a confidentiality agreement because of the rule that “FOIA does not permit selective disclosure of information to only certain parties, and that once the information is disclosed to [the plaintiff], it must be made available to all members of the public who request it”); Swan v. SEC, 96 F.3d 498, 500 (D.C. Cir. 1996) (“Once records are released, nothing in the FOIA prevents the requester from disclosing the information to anyone else. The statute contains no provisions requiring confidentiality agreements or similar conditions.”);
———————————————————————————
“FOIA does not permit selective disclosure of information to only certain parties.”
“Once the information is disclosed, it MUST be made available to ALL members of the public who request it.”
“NOTHING in the FOIA prevents the requester from disclosing the information to ANYONE ELSE.”
Wow–thanks WTKTT–you have made plain the law to those law breakers whom have been refusing, delaying and tampering with evidence. I hope they receive the full punishment of the law with all the confusion, time loss and frustration they have cause to people requesting FOIA information.
Joy might have to get a friend to request the FOIA for her. There are plenty who want to know the facts of what killed the GMHS crew.
Add—- a copy of that post by WTKTT ought to be included with any FOIA request. It is certain that these FOIA people for the most part are ignorant of their duties and the relevant laws.
Am I allowed to reask for the data?
I did a FOIA on that exact thing and the FOIA index shows only me so maybe hers was in settlement.
You saw on my blog what I got
Do I ask why she got it all and I got partial?
Could that been part of their settlement?
I have a very solid case against a certain investigator and still pondering to just sue him civilian to civilian like on 30 mile fire
What was the name of that female attorney?
These people who did the SAIR are not allowed another Summer…their time is here to SPEAK UP.
Reply to Joy Collura post on May 27, 2019 at 6:39 am
>> Joy Collura asked…
>>
>> Am I allowed to reask for the data?
Yes… but be aware that, according to the Department of Justice guidelines for FOIA requests, one of the reasons a request COULD be ‘rejected’ is if, under certain circumstances, that request is deemed to be a ‘duplicate request’ for the same information from the same person.
But by ‘certain circumstances’, I mean the ‘guidelines’ only allow for such a thing if it is obvious that TWO requests came from the same person AT or AROUND the SAME TIME ( such as one via e-mail and one via snail mail ). The ‘duplicate request’ designation just allows them to not have to process TWO different requests for the same information, from the same person, at the same TIME.
The ‘duplicate request’ condition does NOT cover this circumstance, whereby you are NOT actually requesting the SAME information… you are NOW requesting NEW information/documents and the REST of the information that you never received in response to the first request.
United States Department of Justice
Handbook for Agency Annual Freedom of Information Act Reports
https://www.justice.gov/oip/page/file/160716/download
On PDF page 12…
—————————————————————————–
Disposition of FOIA Requests
Agencies are required to account for the disposition of each of the FOIA requests processed during the fiscal year in their Annual FOIA Reports. A disposition is needed for all processed requests, including those that were not perfected.
Additionally, once a request is closed, any use of a FOIA exemption by the agency to protect information MUST be DOCUMENTED.
There are eleven pre-established dispositions that a request can be classified under, which are each described in the chart below.
Each closed request must have exactly one disposition.
If a request cannot be classified under any of these standard dispositions, there is a disposition called “other” which can be used.
** Disposition 11 ( of 11 )…
Duplicate Request
The request was closed because it was a duplicate of another request received by the agency. Only requests from the same requester seeking the same information can be closed as duplicates.
Example: Requester A sends a request both by e-mail and U.S. mail. As a result, the agency inadvertently opens two request numbers and sends out two acknowledgment letters before realizing that it has received the same request by separate means. The request received last should be closed as a duplicate request.
——————————————————————————-
>> Joy Collura also asked…
>>
>> Do I ask why she got it all and I got partial?
You should not have to. All you should have to do is ASK for the information, and if Pfingston recently got back UNREDACTED copies… then you should, too.
If you don’t.. then obvious something is rotten in Denmark, and you could now bring it all up on appeal.
>> Joy Collura also said…
>>
>> I did a FOIA on that exact thing and the FOIA index shows only me
>> so maybe hers was in settlement.
>>
>> Could that been part of their settlement?
No… not unless Pfngston is LYING in her public podcast.
An FOIA request is an FOIA request. Supposed to be the same ‘results’ for EVERYONE.
She says she got the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Unit Logs via a standard FOIA request.
That has nothing to do with any documents that might have been ‘promised’ to her ( and/or other family members ) as part of a civil-case settlement.
If you want to avoid all possibility of them saying you are submitting a ‘duplicate request from the same person for the same previously provided information’… then just get someone ELSE to put their name on a NEW FOIA request for you.
Now it’s a ‘brand new’ request for the Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs… and if the ‘response’ to that ‘brand new’ request isn’t the same UNREDACTED material that Pfingston says she got… then something really STINKS and would need to be sorted out by APPEALING that FOIA ‘response’.
Followup…
Rather than even ‘re-request’ the information and run the risk of them saying it’s a “duplicate request for the same information”… you could submit a NEW request that would potentially FORCE the same ‘information’ back to YOU that was ( supposedly ) sent to Deborah Pfingston and/or Doug Harwood.
The National Freedom of Information Coalition
Protecting Your Right to Open Government
Article Title: FOIA the FOIAs
https://www.nfoic.org/foia-foias
From that article…
———————————————————————–
Many FOIA requests produce disappointing results…
But one type of FOIA request produces results time after time — with less of a wait.
FOIA the FOIAs.
With these requests, you can see what others persons are requesting from federal agencies or departments, and you can request the same information they have received.
This technique is commonly used by attorneys and businesses, and is gaining in popularity with journalists.
———————————————————————–
“…you can request the SAME information THEY have received
If there ends up being no record of an FOIA that someone claims they made, and received a response to, then either THEY are simply LYING about having actually made that FOIA request… or something even more sinister is going on and that could be discovered on ‘appeal’.
Also… did you know that when push comes to shove… if you actually KNOW ( for sure ) that someone is in possession of ‘public information’ that THEY received in response to an FOIA request… you can actually ‘go after’ that ‘public information’ directly from THEM?
It has to do with the legal term/concept “release to one is release to all”… and it is actually the default concept when it comes to FOIA response records.
The moment anyone receives information back because of THEIR FOIA request, that information is ( technically ) immediately considered to be ‘in the public domain’, and you can ‘go after’ anyone who you KNOW has that information in their possession.
You may have to actually ‘sue’ them ( in civil court ) to get it… but it’s possible to do.
There’s plenty of ‘case law’ out there where, for example, certain media outlets became aware that some other media outlet was in the possession of ‘FOIA response information’, but they were playing “catch and kill” and just sitting on the information and not publishing it. If those other outlets then had any trouble obtaining the same information… they would “file suit” and obtain it from the people they KNEW ( already ) had it.
And these cases were SUCCESSFUL because, in the end, judges have repeatedly decided that once released to ANYONE via FOIA… the ‘information’ is now ‘in the public domain’ and not the sole/personal possession of whoever obtained it.
That’s a hard road to take, obviously… but it HAS happened.
**
** THE UNREDACTED BLUE RIDGE LOGS
There’s actually a lot to “unpack” in the recent Pfingston / Harwood podcasts about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
The podcasts are ‘co-authored’ by Deborah Pfingston, the mother of deceased GM hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, and Doug Harwood, a former GM crew member and currently a Prescott FD firefighter.
According to Harwood himself, in the podcasts, he was a Granite Mountain hotshot for 4 years… from 2004 to 2008, which means he was with the crew the year they went from being a Type 2 crew to full Type 1 Hotshot status.
In ALL of the ( 10 ) podcasts, both Pfingston and Harwood make it clear to the listener that THEIR ‘prime directive’ during THEIR investigation was that Eric Marsh, Jesse Steed and the Granite Mountain crew could not possibly have ever made ANY bad decisions, or ever done ANYTHING wrong that day, so EVERYTHING that happened to them MUST have been “someone else’s fault”.
But despite that myopic and closed-minded approach to ‘investigating’… they actually did manage to obtain some ‘new information’, and find out some interesting things.
ONE of those things is the fact that they were able to actually obtain, via their own Freedom of Information Act ( FOIA ) requests, their own UNREDACTED copies of the Blue Ridge Unit Logs ( which they seem to keep simply referring to in the podcasts as the “Blue Ridge interview notes” )… and that they were also able to intereview one of the Blue Ridge crew members ( in Pfingston’s living room ), despite the ‘gag order’ that has been placed on that crew.
Here is the first mention of this in their podcasts, and a link to the specific podcast where it takes place…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 03: Command or Lack of Command Arrives on the Fire
Published: March 1, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-3-Command-or-Lack-of-Command-Arrives-on-the-Fire-e3at7s
At +8:15 into ‘Part 2’ of ‘Episode 3’…
———————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: Now we’re at 8:00 AM… and Blue Ridge, another Type 1 Hotshot crew, arrives on the fire, and we’re told by Blue Ridge interviews, and also by a personal interview we had with a Blue Ridge crew member, that they arrived on this fire and they just hung out in a parking lot waiting for instructions for 30 to 45 minutes and they were just doing nothing.
The crew member that we talked to in our living room said “we were twiddling our thumbs”… and in Blue Ridge’s interview they say that they were just begging for information.
( snip )
Another thing that the Blue Ridge crew member said to us is that… uhm… their supe and their captain were saying “You know… we gotta get on this fire. We gotta get some stuff done, or Granite Mountain’s gonna rub it in… that we were just standin’ around while they were doin’ all the work”… and I thought that was kind of cute. But he… you know…
Doug Harwood: …and that happens… you know… if you happen to be the crew…
Deborah Pfingston: You torment and tease?
Doug Harwood: …or if you’re the crew that did all the prep work and then the other crew comes and does your burn… that’s… you know… that’s the way it goes… but…
Deborah Pfingston: You rub it in a little bit?
Doug Harwood: Yeah… you gotta… Yeah… you gotta rub it in.
+11:56
Deborah Pfingston: We FOIA’ed their… uhm… Blue Ridge’s interview, and it was just black line after black line and then it would be… have a break and say “and he said…” black line, black line… “but then… “black line, black line.
But WE have since gotten the UNREDACTED interviews, and that’s what we’re working here with… is… now we know. And I will tell you what’s really frustrating is we did not get the Blue Ridge interviews unredacted until years later. Uhm… and I was appalled by that because some of the things that were in the Blue Ridge interviews should have been in the SAIR.
——————————————————————————————————–
But then they don’t really say much else about anything that might even be contained in these UNREDACTED Blue Ridge ‘Interviews’ ( Unit Logs ).
One of the ONLY times it is then re-mentioned is when they are discussing the events of late afternoon on Sunday, June 30, 2013, and where they think the ‘manual burnout’ that they believe happened actually originated.
Due to posting length limits… that part of their ‘
podcast’ espisode FOUR ( Part 6 ) is in the next “Reply’
( Continued from previous message ).
So Pfingston / Harwood have now revealed they have the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Notes/Logs.
But is still takes them a while to actually start mentioning ANYTHING they might
have learned from them.
That part of their ‘podcast’ espisode FOUR ( Part 6 ) is transcribed below.
NOTE: I’ve included the ‘context’ that leads up to them revealing something from the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Unit logs… which also contains some of their other ‘beliefs’ about those final moments…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 04: All the Dominoes Line Up to Tragedy
Published: March 18, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-4-All-the-Dominoes-Line-Up-to-Tragedy-e3fp08
————————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston: You and I have stood on Sesame Street and we have looked… you can stand on Sesame Street, facing where the fire is coming, and look to your left… and you’re looking up a straight chute to the crew’s…
Doug Harwood: Yup.
Deborah Pfingston: Uhm…
Doug Harwood: It’s just a funnel.
Deborah Pfingston: It’s just a funnel.
Doug Harwood: It’s the start… it’s the beginning of a funnel that goes right to them.
Deborah Pfingston: And it’s insane. It is absolutely insane… and… uhm… I… I remember you and I looking left and then looking at each other and it’s like… oh my god… and… so… this structure protection group one… prepping all day to start a backburn… trigger points are hit… the dozer and Blue Ridge, who were on Sesame Street prepping… in their interviews claim they never got the weather report. We have Air Attack… new Air Attack… has no idea where Granite Mountain is. Eric Marsh is on the… uhm… can see… not only can he see Sesame Street from his location… he sees the fire… he sees the crew comin’ down… and… all of a sudden… this weather front hits… fire is put on the ground… and… radios are blowing up… it’s going nuts… and also… exactly at 4:20… in Blue Ridge’s interview… the redacted interview we couldn’t see way back when… but the new one we have that’s not redacted… they said that they heard yelling on TAC 1, TAC 5, Air-to-Ground… uhm… they… some… that Granite Mountain…
Doug Harwood: Yeah. It was all Granite Mountain…
Deborah Pfingston: …was tryin’ to get ahold of someone desperately.
Doug Harwood: …Granite Mountain Seven trying every channel that they could try.
Deborah Pfingston: Yeah. They’re… so Granite Mountain is calling on TAC 1. Granite Mountain is calling on TAC 5. Granite Mountain is calling Air-to-Ground. And… and this is happening and nobody’s…no… nobody knows… the left hand doesn’t know what the right hand is doing. Again… Granite Mountain was left out to fight the fire all by themselves all fricking day… and now we’ve got this going on.
( snip )
Doug Harwood: And by that time Marsh had… tells them that their escape route’s been cut off… and you can hear him running… uhm… sounds like he’s running… probably to the crew. But… you know… we don’t know… we don’t know what… what’s going on there. But their escape route’s been cut off and… ahm… Air Attack is… this Air Attack is confused ‘cus they don’t know where they are. They’re gettin’… they’re askin’ them “Are you on the south side of the fire?”
Deborah Pfingston: And they don’t wanna do a drop because they wanna hold it to maybe help… and they fly.. It’s just one of those other tragic points. Uhm… they were right over them. They could… they could have done a drop. I don’t know if it woulda pro… saved them or not. I don’t know… but they flew right over them with fuel. Uhm… and… you know… in that… in that audio you can hear Eric running. Uhm… I have heard the audio… you can Google it… uhm… and I think that’s pretty amazing. He is on that ( round ) spot. He ( Eric ) SEES the BACKBURN STARTED He sees… he feels the weather… uhm… the crew is desperately on all TACs tryin’ to get help. They’re… you can hear chainsaws. They are busting their hind end trying to build a safety zone for themselves… uhm…
Doug Harwood: And, you know, like it says in all the reports, amazingly calm for what they were going through at that point. Uhm… just trying to get as much information as you can. Tells them they’re burning out in the brush, preparing for… uh… to deploy in their shelters and they’ll let ’em know when… when they’re ( out ). Air Attack’s still confused. Are they… askin’ if they’re on the… the south side of the fire and Marsh says… tells ’em “Affirm”… we’re on the south side of the fire.
Deborah Pfingston: Uhm… around 4:30, the Serious Accident Investigation Report… uhm… says there’s a lot of spot fires happening. Uhm… I believe, again, that spot fires probably were happening but I believe they said that to cover themselves up for the backburn. Uhm… supposedly this is the time when fifty mile-an-hour winds hit… uhm… but no one on the fire talked about filfty mile-an-hour winds in their interviews. Not ONE.
Doug Harwood: And the ones taking the weather are not… they say it was never fifty miles-an-hour.
Deborah Pfingston: Right.
Doug Harwood: Twenty. Twenty to maybe thirty. Max.
Deborah Pfingston: Right. So, you know, in essence… I believe this is a complete coverup. It’s… was a mess. I do not believe that anybody purposely meant to kill Granite Mountain… but I do believe one-hundred-and-ten percent that they are covering up the fact of terrible communication… no… no complexity analysis being done correctly… uhm… absolutely… uh… terrible communication on the fire within each other that day. No plans. No direction. Uhm… that they let Granite Mountain… uhm… you know… I’m sorry, but… absolutely no one stood up and said… I’m gonna stand up for the crew. Uhm… they let the Serious Accident Investigation Report get published and… there are those out there that know… and I… and I believe we know the absolute truth and… uhm… we’ll be discussing that a little bit more in our next episode. Some of the things we discovered. Who we talked to. Uhm… but this right here… uhm…
I believe Granite Mountain was killed by the backburn.
No weather reports. Uhm… and… no one has stood up for the crew.
Doug Harwood: Agreed.
Deborah Pfingston: Uhm… so… uh… and I think it’s appalling that Granite Mountain is desperately calling for help. Uh… everybody… the news reports, everything, has heard them calling, you know, “Breaking in Arizona sixteen”, and for those of you that don’t know… Arizona sixteen is an… is an Air Attack. They’re… they’re tryin’ to get ahold of Air Attack. That’s their channel type thing right?
Doug Harwood: Right.
( snip )
Deborah Pfingston: Uhm… so… they… they’ve tried all TACs all radios, and they’re saying “Please”, you know, “Air sixteen, Granite Mountain Hotshots. We’re in front of the flaming front”. Uhm… they say it… “How”… you know… “How do you read? Please listen to us.” There’s no panic button on the radios There’s nothing. They are trying to save themselves and no one’s listening. Uhm…
Doug Harwood: And it was so confusing at the time… and people are trying to strug… struggle to find ’em… the ones that are trying to listen to ’em are trying to struggle to find ’em.
Deborah Pfingston: You know what… honestly… uh… you and I talked about this… the only people listening to all of the TACS was Blue Ridge… and in their interview they said they could hear them calling for help… like FIFTEEN MINUTES.
Doug Harwood: Yeah.
Deborah Pfingston: FIFTEEN MINUTES! That would have been time for them to do that drop. That could have done that retardant drop. They could’ve.
———————————————————————————————————-
So, somehow, something THEY are seeing in THEIR copy of the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Interviews/Logs is leading Pfingston to believe that GM actually stood out in a box canyon and, rather than either run forward to the BSR or go backwards up/over the ridge or do anything else to try and SAVE themselves… they chose to just STAND there where they would end up dying for a full FIFTEEN MINUTES just dicking around with radios and trying to get someone to ‘help’ them?
That is,( of course ) absurd… but it DOES matter that these UNREDACTED logs DO seem to contain these reports of ‘other’ radio callouts by GM prior to the final A2G exchange recorded in one of Aaron Hulburd’s videos.
At this point… Doug Harwood tries to keep the conversation grounded in REALITY… and reminds Pfingston that even though they have the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Hotshot notes… even THEY are not exactly sure what the ‘times’ are for all the reported radio traffic on all the various channels…
———————————————————————————————————-
Doug Harwood: Yeah… and we don’t know how… how skewed those times are.
Deborah Pfingston: No, we don’t.
Doug Harwood: But…
Deborah Pfingston: It’s true.
Doug Harwood: Yeah.
Deborah Pfingston: But… Granite Mountain was hung out to dry and no one is stepping up… uhm… to take the responsibility…and that’s wrong.
———————————————————————————————————
It still remains very important to know EXACTLY when Granite Mountain FIRST started “calling for help”. ALL of their decision making out in the box canyon and any ‘lessons’ that could be learned, have always been based on knowing EXACTLY how much TIME they actually had that day after the “Oh shit” moment when they FIRST realized how much trouble they were in.
And what ELSE is there to know/learn from those UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Interviews/Logs?
More later.
“Oh, what a tangled web we weave when at first we practice to deceive.”
Woodsman
Those webs that those weaved are currently unravelling at a pace just right that they can thread themselves a nice quilted hankie.
God is Good 👍
All the time..
He’s in this heart of mine…
You can sing it…say it…because the time is already happening
Can I get a hallelujah? Can I get an amen?
The Irish Gods and Goddesses and good old Jesus are damn well pleased Joy and now we await the rest of the story. Yet if all the truth is laid out there will be a long time of reckoning. So much of the phony baloney and the instigators of such that must stand in the corner.
It is past the statute of Arizona limits for the loved ones to get redress–or perhaps not since the lot of them were mislead. The puny money they got for the death of their loved ones rightfully should be amended. But even so, they will get the closure that they deserve. People such as Amanda, Donut and many others that have played along with the deceptions will need to come to terms wit the truth. I do remember Amanda said that some will hate Marsh–I have always believed she knew much more than she wanted known. Those efforts the instigators had of hiding the truth put a great hurt on the loved ones. I see that Phingston is one that has come to realize that. When you come out with more facts that I know you will Joy, then there will be more coming forward who have opted to keep quiet. The Big Bad Bogey Man is now the fire god who was found to only be a man with a big mouth and no substance to back his words.
Of course there are so many here that deserve credit and it seems the teamwork of people on Investigative Media whom have never retreated nor laid the cover up to rest in the end are the real heroes. Defending and revealing the truth will always be utmost in a death situation where there were 19 careless and needless deaths–especially when it involves those that are warriors and heroes the same as had they been on the front lines in any battlefield for the country.
I am anxious to see more revelations and happy the facts will be finally presented and if that be anywhere it should be on this site of Investigative Media with John Daugherty for special honors. This indeed has been the sole place one could come to find the continued search for the truth whereas anywhere else acceptance of the faulty investigation were being supported. John has had no fear in any of his investigations–all to benefit people by revelations of truth where lies prevailed.
Yes Joy the Irish Gods are smiling
**
** DEBORAH PFINGSTON APOLOGIZES TO ADOSH FOR BEING PART
** OF THE GROUP OF FAMILY MEMBERS THAT WERE ASKED TO
** CONVINCE ADOSH TO ‘BACK OFF’ ARIZONA FORESTRY.
Before we get too far away from the recent discussion of “El Jefe” ( Jeff Whitney ), and the recent public proof that he was ‘conspiring’ to keep certain people from attending Yarnell ‘Staff Rides’… there actually is the following recent piece of ‘news’ about what went on during the settlement of the wrongful death lawsuits.
In one of her recently published ( public ) PODCASTS about the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Deborah Pfingston ( mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft ) admits that it was ‘Arizona Forestry’ ( most likely ‘El Jefe’ himself ) who asked her and other GM family members to go to ADOSH and convince them to ‘back off’ their workplace safety violations/citations regarding the Yarnell Hill Fire.
That ‘group’ of GM family members agreed to do Arizona Forestry’s legal ‘dirty work’, and were instrumental in getting ADOSH to ‘back off’ and just be part of the overall ‘settlement’ of the wrongful death lawsuits.
Mrs. Pfingston now REGRETS having been a part of that ‘dirty work’.
If ADOSH had stuck to their guns with regards to their Yarnell Fire report and the workplace safety citations they had already issued… there would have been a standard ‘dispute hearing’ over the validity of the citations… and even though that would have taken place in front of a specially appointed judge it would have been, for all intents and purposes, just like any other ‘Civil Case’ brought before a judge.
In other words… it would have been time to call actual WITNESSES and have them testify for REAL… under penalty of perjury.
That was, of course, the absolute ONE thing that ‘El Jefe’ had to prevent.
The families ‘caving’ and deciding to settle their own wrongful death lawsuits with Arizona Forestry was one thing… but they should have NEVER interfered with the normal progress of the ADOSH workplace safety violation(s) dispute. If that process had been allowed to simply run its normal course… and gone to a standard ‘dispute hearing’ before a real judge… we would most likely KNOW a whole lot more about what really happened that entire weekend back in 2013.
Mrs. Pfingston seems to finally understand that now… and she is actually SORRY for her participation in Arizona Forestry’s ( sic: El Jefe’s ) little ‘scheme’ to make the ADOSH citation(s) dispute hearing ‘go away’.
Here she is ‘telling the story’… in her OWN words…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 05: Heartbreak, Frustration, Anger
Published: March 30, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-5-Heartbreak–Frustration–Anger-e3jn07
At +1:30 into the PODCAST…
——————————————————————————————————
Deborah Pfingston says…
ADOSH. We’ve talked about the Serious Accident Investigation Report, and we talk about the ADOSH report, and, you know, I want to say one thing. ADOSH interviews were fantastic. They were much more detailed.
They interviewed individuals, not groups.
They asked pertinent questions.
Their interviews were fantastic.
But… there were some Forest Service employees that they weren’t allowed to interview, and I think that’s a travesty.
But… as I thanked the ( DPS ) medic ( Eric Tarr )… I want to thank the investigators for the ADOSH report. At the time, the families had… we were goin’ through litigation… we were kinda beaten up by the state… we were beaten up by the loss of our loved ones… of having to fight… and ADOSH wanted to fight Arizona State Foresty. They wanted to… uhm… they have some great… they had some great citations in their report and, honestly, the families were asked to go to them and ask them not to (fight)… and I was part of that.
And I went with a group and I said to them “Please STOP”, “Please just let it be”…
…and I apologize for that.
I wish now, in hindsight, if I could step back I would say “No”. I would love to see ADOSH have fought the Arizona Forestry Department because their report is so much better. Is it one-hundred percent? It’s not… but it’s so much better.
And so, ADOSH, please accept my apology.
Your investigation was fantastic.
——————————————————————————————————
wtktt says:
If ADOSH had stuck to their guns with regards to their Yarnell Fire report and the workplace safety citations they had already issued… there would have been a standard ‘dispute hearing’ over the validity of the citations… and even though that would have taken place in front of a specially appointed judge it would have been, for all intents and purposes, just like any other ‘Civil Case’ brought before a judge.
my reply-
please wtktt if you could let me know the health status of ADOSH’s lawyer at the time- Chris A. – who at the unique time bailed due to health – please could you help bring clarity of that section how ADOSH lawyer gracefully bailed due to health and has anyone heard how he is doing nowadays?
I miss Dave Larsen. (rest in peace)
Ms. Pfingston was unaware of many facets and as more unfolds she will see IM and ADOSH and many have tried very hard to get the data- there is a certain number of areas that do not want the missing information to the forefront but its not only out but it is for sure simmering and from this point on I am free to attend all anniversary events tied to the fire Tex and I eyewitnessed. even though some will think differently…I received an email from Ms. Norris a confirmation link May 15 2019 17:26 for an evening honoring the brave 19 and recently Gary mentioned it on IM and lo and behold I was gifted such an opportunity to be present where Donut and all of them will be- I wonder what kind of platform of panel discussions will be permitted- all pertaining to the movie or can we talk specifics about the theme of my blog? and the true times…I think I will bring some of my father’s retired law enforcement friends to watch over me for the event and maybe some of my own PI pals….I think it will be interesting if for once I can engage in the event without someone else creations or orchestrations….wtktt- I just got home and I finally saw all your hard work and I did stop by that person’s place and do my best to get that all handled while I am in town. I walk Yarnell not this weekend but next as they gear up for their annual Memorial run there and it will be interesting how I am treated there especially when some on the run already are in the know what is coming out this Summer 2019 ( 20 men 19 perished…Sonny caught it… 2 0 1 9 …they all can still SPEAK UP… yet after the Summer it will be too late…you all will know…the world will know…Lessons Learned Center will be in the know…YHFire Staff Rides will be in the know….SAIT already has been given the heads up…
Reply to Joy A Collura post on May 23, 2019 at 9:57 pm
>> Joy A Collura said…
>>
>> please wtktt if you could let me know the health status of ADOSH’s
>> lawyer at the time- Chris A. – who at the unique time bailed due to health
I have no information about the current ( or prior ) ‘health status’ of any ADOSH lawyers. If the case had moved normally to a ‘dispute hearing’, and one of their lawyers wasn’t feeling “up to it”… I am sure ADOSH would have appointed another lawyer to handle the hearing(s).
>> Joy A Collura also said…
>>
>> I wonder what kind of platform of panel discussions will be
>> permitted- all pertaining to the movie or can we talk
>> specifics about the theme of my blog?
Well… if you read their own advertising… this is simply a ‘fund-raiser’ being conducted by a private 501-3C non-profit organization… so they have the right ‘control’ the evening and limit any ‘questions’ to whatever they think is appropriate.
They actually DO say, in their already-published advertising, that the “panel discussion” is supposed to be “about the movie”.
From their own published ‘Schedule’ for this event…
—————————————————————————————-
Schedule:
3:30 pm Check in ( Each ticket holder receives limited edition GM hotshot challenge coin at check in .)
4:00 pm – Showing of movie, Only the Brave.
7:00 pm – Private event with heavy appetizers ( from El Gato Azul ), free beer ( from Granite Mountain Brewing ) and wine, music ( by Rusty Pistols Reloaded ), and silent auction of unique items.
7:45 pm – Q&A with panel about the movie. ( Guests are encouraged to bring items for autographs and pictures at the end. )
Panelists: Survivor Brendan McDonough, Movie Producer Mike Menchel, Family Member John Marsh, GM Hotshot Alum and Movie Advisor Pat McCarty, & First Crew Chief Duane Steinbrink.
————————————————————————————
I suppose there are tons of questions that COULD be asked of those panelists that DO relate to the movie… and might also get some interesting answers… but I would also guess that if the ‘discussion’ gets too far ‘off the rails’ for their liking… they will just shut it down.
They are just trying to RAISE MONEY… not ‘solve’ anything.
Yeah…I’m pretty sure they aren’t going to hand you a microphone Joy or invite you to come up and join their panel. 😂
A ticket to attend their soiree…$219.00.
Joy’s presence there…priceless.
I should say they should be paying Joy to be there and have her make a speech to inform the public. Joy after all has sympathized with the loved ones but she did wonder why so many fell for the cover up and let the investigators slide when they concocted a story with wild land fire fighting bosses that only walk with halos. They need to know that occasionally you find wild land fire fighter honchos who are willing to use strange tactics to prop up their halo. Some have even tossed it aside and committed such things as arson that added in murder charges. But Yarnell sets itself aside as a mass homicide event involved in the sacrifice of 17 young firemen who died with their perpetrators in the main. Others may prove to be involved in the homicide–time has begun to reveal more and that is why this site has continued–the smoke has finally begun to clear after years and the mystery may come to fruition.
Joy,
I was shocked and saddened to learn of your recent and very serious dog bite and I pray for your swift and healthy recovery. Did the dog have to get injections for rabies or other infectious diesese? On the other hand, I am close to having BINGO. So far on my card I have;
1. Serious dog bite (or bite from other non feral domesticated animal)..
2. Rattlesnek bit (or drinking rattkesnek venom).
3. Battling life threatening illnesses from living near a Superfund site (or genetic life threatening illnesses).
I had to appeal to the judges for credit on two of those, but up I was close enough.
Now…if you can manage to fall down an open mine shaft (or dry well, or other big hole in the ground like a limestone cave in).
Get hit by a truck while walking down the highway (or other fast moving and large vehicle, (electric cars like a Prius don’t count).
And for the bonus square, die of dehydration, or sunstroke while being a desert walker (collapsing from a lack of nutrician from a wacky diet and subsequently dying from exposure also counts).
I will have BINGO and win the on-lline betting pool I have been running on the side to make some extra coin. But…the rules specifically prohibit you from doing any of those things on purpose just to help me out. I had to get a waiver for you drinking rattlesnek poison because you did do that on purpose but I appealed under “special circumstances.”
When the judges asked me, “What Special Circumstances?” I had to tell them the truth…like…you know…you’re fuckin’ crazy as an Arizona Road Lizard. Of course the judges accepted that explanation. So…
Whoops take 2,
Oh…and one more thing. How did Mann Gulch look…anything new since 1949?
Based on everything we have learned about wikdkand firefighter safety over the past six years and my constant repeating the primary lessons learned from the Loop, Battlement Creek, South Canyon and Yarnell Hill Fires, can anyone guess the primary reasons the jumpers were killed on the Mann Gulch Fire?
Anyone…anyone…anyone? YES…they were working IN A STEEP CANYON and ABOVE THE FIRE. Discounting for the moment were the fire may have come from that actually killed them.
So…don’t do that. Don’t work in a steep canyon above the fire unless you really know what you are doing, because as RTS said years ago…you can safely do that, if you are either really good or really lucky…or maybe both?
But….I’m not a student of the Mann Gulch Fire of 1949. So I might be wrong?
And of course this is a wild guess on my part, but I am going to guess they ended up working ABOVE THE FIRE for the same reason everyone was working above the South Canyon Fire, Smokejumpers did what they do and jumped into an LZ on a ridge top and then the hotshots did what they do, they were flown by helicopter to the same LZ. And the LZ was above the fire because the fire started way down the canyon near the interstate and then you know…burned UPHILL.
And of course that also why the helitack were there as well. They probably got out to manage the helispot and so more hotshots could be brought up in subsequent loads. I really need to go back and read that report again.
Gary, in travel mode.
Was snowing and now medium rain and that is in Arizona.
I did go on a staff ride but not Mann Gulch.
I was for a moment in Helena.
I will make that post soon when not travelling.
The recap of your BINGO card…I have fallen and been hit by vehicles. I use to do endurance bicycle riding ages ago and to me I did not know if running or bicycling was more dangerous than fighring fire or working in the military wearing a geiger counter necklace.
So much doings and living I have done…Sonny too.
Funny part…its true stuff just like the true stuff that is already out in certain spots as I continue to set forth and tell the TRUE documented timeline on YHFire.
Everyone had their time to speak up…I am already doung hust that.
As for the free space in MY bingo card you got…thats for Jesus…
The only reason this works is because of Him.
Dead zones.
On road.
Chat again soon.
And no…not interested in being Yarnell fire chief just getting public records…
Have a good one
BINGO…this proves my theory pertaining to just throwing things against the wall to see what sticks kinda works. It just so happens that because of my unique background in what are some truly very specific and unique job knowledge, skills and abilities in some truly arcane fields, I have a pretty high success rate in getting things that I know something about…to stick.
For example, to most of you, three of the words I used above while crafting that random and miscellaneous thoughts are just that…random. And truthfully, there was no crafting involved in creating that post, which is probably why hardly anyone will ever read my book even if I managed to get it published.
I know you have to be a very loyal reader to wade through my bullshit to get to the point I am trying to make, but if you can manage it, I always have a point I’m trying to make with what I write. I just sometimes never make that point due to the high volume of random and miscellaneous thought traffic in my head. But…I do know I have a few interested readers because I hear fro them once in a while so I’m going to plod forward.
All of that being said, I am working right now on writing a paragraph for my tome about why Captain Brian Hughes was killed. I know I already told you why I think he was killed and that was because he was trained to die. And he followed his training to the very end because he was a good and maybe even great hotshot. Captain Hughes was just the product of a deeply flawed system and it would be far more accurate to say he was the victim of a deeply flawed system.
And even though I have already told you why I think he died, that reason is a conclusion that is supported by all of the random and miscellaneous thoughts that enabled me to arrive at that conclusion. And I guess because his needless and untimely death really bother me, I am now taking the time to assemble those thoughts into something that resembles a coherent paragraph for my book. I hope to publish that paragraph here just in case anyone else wants to know the pattern of random and miscellaneous thoughts that got me there.
Some of what I am going to write will be completely wrong about Captain Hughes, but I lack the resources, time and interest in finding out just how much of what I think is wrong and how much is right. So I am going to do what I almost always do, just throw things against the wall and see what sticks. And even if a lot of it slides off the wall onto the floor that won’t really matter because I know based on my knowledge, skills and abilities that in general, I will be more right than wrong.
And just FYI…those three words, knowledge, skills and abilities are known in my former world by their acronym that is just more bureaucratic alphabet soup to most people…KSA’s. And that acronym was very important if you wanted to get a promotion, which I always did in my former world. The KSA’s aren’t what got you the job, it’s just that if you didn’t either have any, or you couldn’t arrange them in a readable and logical format to make it past the pencil neck Richard Craniums (non gender specific because most of them were women and not men) well then, you couldn’t be wired in to getting the promotion you wanted and they wanted you to have. Or in my case for the entire Second Act of my career, wanted to keep you from getting because you had been blackballed by the system for good or bad. I say for good or bad because sometimes there are some really good reasons why someone is blackballed. There might have even been some really good reasons I was blackballed 🙁 But…at this part it really doesn’t matter anymore to anyone except…ME. 🙂
Oh…and one more thing, even if I get my paragraph on the death of Captain Hughes published here in this format and you know I’m wrong, please don’t bother to tell me because I don’t really care and it doesn’t matter anyway because I am going to make my account of his death into a fable. And even though it’s going to a short story, it’s not going to have animals as characters, but it will convey a moral…I hope. And that moral will be…”I think the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center needs to get their act together because as they like to repeat, “A lesson learned is when we change our behavior.”
That all being said, I am really worried about Joy because if Sonny is concerned, we probably should be hitting the panic button because to him, being shot at point blank range in the back by Charlie with a shotgun really wasn’t that big of a deal. Sonny’s biggest concern, after first thinking he needed to return fire to take out the sniper who had just shot him, was mostly concern about turning off his truck’s engine because after someone found his dead body, the boys would still need a ride back to town. That’s my kind of guy because I was trained to know that even after you have been killed by bullets and are just spending the last 30 seconds (approximately) of your time here on this earth, you still have enough time to “Finish The Fight.” I just hope I don’t disappoint myself if I ever get a chance to prove I learned that lesson. Sonny didn’t have to be taght that lesson…he instinctively already knew it.
So…how is your dog bite Joy…it sounds pretty bad and how did it happen?
Oh…and one more thing. YOU are exactly the person that should be the next Yarnell Hill Fire Chief Joy…you would shake that place up. And even after almost the entire city and all of its suburbs were burned to the ground…they probably haven’t changed much.
So…it will happen again, we just don’t know when and neither do they, but it will happen again. I just pray no wild land firefighters die next time trying to save the place because it’s just not worth it…no place is.
Clarification…that probably doesn’t matter to anyone but me…but it does matter to me. When I was writing about some of the time I spent in my office at Baker Butte, I told you the story behind what would look to everyone else as just two guys posing for a photo in front of a great view of the Payson Ranger District down on the Tonto National Forest.
Anyway, I told you that the other guy in the photo with me (Sonny) had a Texas sized attitude, a streak of individualism about a mile wide and a Texas sized attitude against authority, including mine, I said I thought I was going to have to separate him from the crew until he finally decided he could work for me after all.
That wasn’t a code for firing him or making his life so miserable he would quit…Homey didn’t play that. And I guess I’m still smarting from some of RTS’s criticism of how I ran my crew because it was diametrically opposed way he ran his.
So…even though my crew was like a wild land firefighting machine made up of cogs, gears, and springs, and not individuals, there was lots of individualism on my crews, we just chose to focus that individualism like a laser into creating one hellavu wild land firefighting machine.
And if you think that logic are two diametrically opposed positions, I would kinda have to agree with you. But like so much of what I think…it’s nuanced and complicated.
So anyway, I never fired anyone who was a good hand and Sonny was a very good hand. I would just have asked Richard to find him a spot on one of our engines and he wouldn’t have been there the next day, because I always had Richard’s (and then later in Santa Fe, Orlando’s) support to build the very best hotshot crew I could and they always made THEIR hotshot crew a priority as did the Coconino and Santa Fe National Forests and the entire USFS did…within the limitations and reality we were faced with.
We played the hand we were dealt…instead of just wishing we had been dealt a better hand. I think that’s what almost every WLF does in the final analysis…one way or the other. 🙂
In other words, having the right KSA’s won’t get you the promotion, but having the wrong ones, or being unable to organize them and articulate them can certainly lose you the job.
And I have written several times on this thread that I identify with Eric Marsh, being blackballed like he was is one of them. I think because I can relate to him on so many levels, is why I can get inside his head even though I never even met him.
Of course those could just be random thoughts moving into the realm of chaotic thoughts on my pat?. I don’t mind having chaotic thoughts, I just don’t want to ever go full chaotic with my thoughts. Am I right?
“…on my PART?”
Thanks Gary–my feeling too–Joy would do some good work there at Yarnell as fire chief.
She tells me the works is already in the fire and proof of burns– the facts will be published here and on her blog. I can see that WTKTT’s inquiries about Phingston has shown how people in their worst situation of grief were manipulated so that certain individuals would not have to take responsibility their part involving the deaths of the the GMHS crew and as a side benefit the state would only pay a paltry sum since the incident was treated as purely accidental.
It remains to be seen whether criminal charges will be filed against those who were involved in the cover up. Due to the seri0usness of the cover up, especially in that it involves the safety of future wild land fighter but the terrible fact that the truth was withheld from the loved ones while they were being manipulate.
It is certain that there are individuals running wild land fire operations that ought to be removed or demoded from supervisory positions. When supervisors bumble to the degree that they cause the death of their crews, then strict measures are in order. OK to kill yourself for you stupidity, but to kill 19 is the ultimate crime of stupidity.
Wait…what?
Gary, I went to google the staff ride I was just on for the PDF and the report was already in their small town paper so I am sure you can see now I spent a couple days with a prior GMHS applicant and brother to Dustin DeFord and two fire module crews with a total of almost 30 people and I will make a post soon of my takeaway of my first staff ride as well share some insights from John Truett on what is a staff ride and what you can expect from them…especially on Yarnell…NWCG is handling the nomination and priority factors on that specific fire…
http://www.codyenterprise.com/news/opinion/article_69c6675a-7cbf-11e9-ab6b-dbd7930a514a.html
Congratulations on your first and I hope you have many more…if that’s what you want?
And I am looking forward to reading your takeaway.
Gary, Dr. Ted worked on that Mann Gulch for over 6 years and even interviewed many of the surviving relatives. He finally come to the conclusion that there was a forest ranger that had come out ahead of the fire you are talking about–Dr. Ted because of wind direction and other facts he uncovered determined that it was actually a burn set by that ranger since there were no other people down in that area and the fire could not have been caused by floating embers and ash. It resulted in trapping the men so there was no escape route. I know he has been writing a documentary on that fire but I do not know if he has published it yet. He told me it was a situation where even the graves were not marked in the proper places, that at that time the state and people involved running the fire did not want the real reason the men were killed out–reason for disinformation and fear of high dollar law suits. It will be very interesting to read his documentary when he finishes–and with his experience and investigative background you can know he will have substantial evidence to back his claims.
It all sounds too familiar and reminds us of the Yarnell ordeal as well as so many other situations you have referred to involving cover ups to maintain the perfect hero image of the wild land fire fighter as well as avoidance of paying victims families the big payouts they would deserve for situations where the state and FS are at fault.
Certainly Joy has had a go with that dog bite. I would be concerned since I was bitten as a child with a rabid dog. In those days they would cut the head off the dog and send it off to Santa Fe to check for rabies and that took some time. Meantime I had gotten sick and was rushed to the hospital–and too 18 shots to the gut. I don’t know how they handle rabies cases these days but it is serious business since the dog bite was from a dog without any rabies vaccination.
I don’t know about taking low doses of rattlesnake venom. But there is an article about a guy that has allowed himself to be bitten by every known poisonous viper. He has done this to where it has brought him to the point of death yet over time he has developed immunity and now can take the deadliest snake bite from snakes that would ordinarily kill you in less than 5 minutes. The one he does not like being bitten by is the rattlesnake–still painful but he says rattlesnake venom destroys muscle tissue. So he has teamed up with a well known scientist and somehow the experiments should produce a vaccine to save lives after snake bites and other diseases as well. All ll I can say is to each his own–It is hard enough getting over a shotgun wound so I will pass on the snake venom situation.
Joy could write a book and is a true survivor. Her book would amaze people if they knew her story. My six years of travels with Joy have led me to know there are few people that would have survived some of the ordeals she has endured through out her life. We did pioneer Arizona as she had wanted to do–something that is difficult in itself in these modern times. She lived that pioneer life with me in tents and caves and endured life of the outdoors person much the same as would have been done by the early pioneers. Maybe that is why the challenge to be a wild land fire fighter came natural to her.
Her photos of these times and the Yarnell Incident would be a book in itself. She has lost most of her relatives, her Dad had died after loosing one lung to smoking–he continued to smoke. It is as I told her he was a good example why there is little interest in the health issues and deaths that became rampant to the elderly after all the orange slurry dumps. It is enough that people make a living and few have the time and energy left to tackle such problems. Yet Joy has given her all to not only the investigation and revelation of the truth of the Yarnell disaster but also to helping those that had suffered loss. She has kept track of the illness and deaths after the Yarnell and Tenderfoot extreme retardant dumps that surrounded the little village of Yarnell in 2013 and 2015.
Maybe like the snake venom, a few acquire a significant amount of immunity after some time around the stuff–that is if you are young enough and have a good immune system. It is well known that if you take arsenic in small doses then in time you can ingest even up to 80 times what would kill an ordinary person in a few minutes. Still you would suffer plenty of irreversible damage to organs and end up in the hospital as would have with the smaller doses. So I continue to harp on the pollutants because I know that they are the reason that not only fish are killed but that our elderly that get significant exposure after these slurry drops will suffer terrible health problems and even death.
So some of us like life and we like to see our friends enjoying their years young and old. There is too much hidden about the slurry and its chemical make up. Whatever is affecting the elderly and escalating problems from the chemical drops is evident starting with the ammonium gases given off and the cyanide formation from dropping these pollutants on hot burning fires. And what are the trade secret hidden ingredients? I will continue to bring the topic up.
I certainly do believe that the young wild land fire fighter exposed to these chemicals will eventually as did the Uranium mners eventually suffer the effects of the chemicals they endure.
I hope you are wrong about the negative impacts of slurry on people’s health? But given the little I know about the petro chemical industry from watching movies…you are probably right?
And you picked up on my oblique reference to setting aside the issue of where the fire came from that killed the jumpers on the Mann Gukch Fire Of 1949 for now. Because yes…I am aware in general terms of the work Ted has been doing on the Mann Gulch Fire for years now from the many long conversations we had on the phone while we were collaborating on our collective and individual memories from the Battlement Creek Fire.
I don’t know why I was surprised when he first told me he believed it was a backfire ignited by the district ranger that killed them, but I was. I guess I was surprised because I thought everything was pretty much known about that fire because it became so famous due to tgd exposure it got from Norman Maclean’s book?
I know I wasn’t surprised because I would put anything past the most District Rangers I ever met and the USFS in general because like I have written before, I think most of those sorry fuckers will lie even when they could tell the truth just to keep in practice.
But yes…if Ted believes it was a backfire that killed the jumpers, I believe it was a backfire that killed them also. I do know from our conversations that the main reason he has never fully engaged on the questions surrounding the Yarnell Hill Fire isn’t because he doesn’t want to, it’s because he thinks a lot of people are already working on it but nobody was working on the issues regarding the Mann Gulch Fire and he believed that is really important and I think he is right about that as well.
Although I have known a few good District Rangers and even a couple of great ones. My first District Ranger Jerry Ellison on the Prescott National Forest was one of them.
Another one from the Santa Fe was Paul Momper. Paul and Jackie Boaz from the Cibola National Forest really saved my ass during the internal investigation from my little dust up with those Terminal Assholes overhead from the Scott Fire of 1983 down on the Coronado.
Paul was our Sector Boss and Jackie was his trainee and both she and Paul went to bat for me when that Fire Boss and Line Boss where trying to really get me really jammed up because of how much money and the loss of a hotshot crew on the fire cost the USFS since it was the extra cost of a special charter jet to fly us home after I got us kicked off the fire.
Well…technically I got myself kicked off the fire and then the crew got themselves kicked off the fire when I was too pissed off from stopping them from going after both of those assholes. You should have seen them run away…it was pretty fuckin’ funny and almost worth the OT and H-Pay we lost, but not quite…sorry fuckers.
Oh…and one more thing. A sector boss under LFO was the same thing as a division group supervisor under ICS. I don’t know most of that mumble jumble bullshit, but I think I know that one.
But I think a lot of people are unclear about a lot of ICS acronyms and obscure positions. I have listened was some amusement while those who are supposed to know it debate WTF some of the titles mean and what exactly they do on an “Incident.”
Or maybe it was Jerry Elson and not Ellison, I never can remember? But in any case, he was a good ranger and a pretty darn good overhead on the fireline as well.
In the good ole days, in order to be a ranger you damn sure had to be a WLF ascwell when the they started ringing the fire bell. The USFS has NEVER even come close to having nearly as many WLF as YOU PEOPLE need. And in the good ole days, it was all hands on deck even if you just worked as support personnel in fire camp, expanded dispatch, a warehouse, or somewhere else in the logistics chain.
That’s another way WLF is very similar to the military at war. It takes a lot of REMF’s to keep every WLF on the fire line or humpin’ it up the mountain.
I think my first ranger’s name was Jerry Elson though? Do you care? HAL 9000 probably does…as an AI, he likes to keep his 0’s and 1’s in a straight line.
“REMF’s decisions only make sense if you think of human beings as only being statistics.”
I bet HAL 900 would make a great REMF?
In the military, REMF doesn’t mean what it used to.
Nowadays… REMFs are also the ones sitting in the air-conditioned cubicles, drinking jolt-cola, and flying the drones that kill people.
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 24, 2019 at 8:53 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I think my first ranger’s name
>> was Jerry Elson though?
>> Do you care?
>> HAL 9000 probably does…as an
>> AI, he likes to keep his 0’s and 1’s
>> in a straight line.
“Elson” it is…
Arizona Interconnection Project
Plan Ammendment/Environmental Impact Statement
Impact of proposed projects by the El Paso Electric Company ( EPE )
Lead Agency: U.S. Department of the Interior, Bureau of Land Management.
Published: October 31, 1986
https://books.google.com/books?id=ewwzAQAAMAAJ&pg=SA6-PA8&lpg=SA6-PA8#v=onepage&q&f=false
From the document…
————————————————
REVIEWERS AND CONTRIBUTORS
Name: Jerry W. Elson
Education and Experiences:
– BS Forest and Range Management, Colorado State University, 1964.
– Coronado National Forest, Assistant District Ranger.
Apache National Forest, District Range Staff.
– Lincoln National Forest, District Timber-Rec. Staff.
Tonto National Forest, District Ranger.
– Coronado National Forest, Range Staff Assisstant.
– Prescott National Forest, District Ranger.
– Gila National Forest, District Ranger.
—————————————————–
OMGosh…you are really good! And just a little bit scary. But thanks…I don’t want to get a detail like that wrong in my tome.
Of course when I was on Jerry’s district, I was so far down the food chain I never interacted directly with him.
But years later when I was the Happy Jack Crew Boss we kept running into each other and working together on the fire line. I just don’t think the kids who are rangers today have that same old school WLF ethos (to partly quote Walter Sobchak).
Both Jerry and District FMO Ron Melcher would have gone ballistic if they would have known, much less seen that idiot 19 year old kid cutting that big ole yellow pine down that was burning from a lightning strike with a tool he had never used before and the only training he had was from watching the classic movie, “Sometimes a Great Notion.”
Not wrong on the retardant. The dioxins and furerons are highly toxic and remain in the environment for decades with an accumulative effect. The toxins attack the immune system and wreck havock on health in several ways. They are certainly carciogenic and mess up hormone production as well.
The ammonium gases given off are lung tissue destroyers. The lung tissue is not regenerated. Cyanide is a poison also created when the ammonium nitrates and phosphates are applied to wild fires. Cyanide ranks among the number one poisons in the world since a tiny capsule of 1/60 th teaspoon is enough to kill a 140 pound person. The gases in the ppm are enough to cause cancer.
But what makes these people of wilted conscience that are spreading these chemicals even more detestable (beyond their already knowledge of the damaging effects on human health) is their methods to cover up other unknown chemicals under trade law secrets. I have no respect for these people any more than I do for the murderers that promote cigarette smoking under the same guises or the people that wilfully covered up the true reason the GMHS crew were sacrificed.
What I have written about the chemicals
All this I have written is confirmed and can easily be researched on line by reputable sources.
Because you know…unlike me Ted doesn’t shoot from the hip and he has a lot more experience that is a lot way more current than I do, and he has way more contacts than I do. So…if he says it was a backfire that killed the jumpers, I’m sure it was. 🙁
Yes, it is true since the visits I had with Ted he was working on the paper about Mann Gulch and with so many years on the cover up there, he did not want to divide his attention.
However, with much consulting with Joy and his many hikes there at Yarnell-some of which I was with him on–he has plenty to say about it. I do not know why he has with held back his expertise here since he could contribute much. Perhaps he will do a paper such as Honda and RTS did.
I believe that JD has allowed this site since it is really the only site that has not been timid with the truth. I know that despite so many who say they avoid this site, they do return knowing that here is where you will get the facts and not from yo-yo types or wanna be fire fighters and Donut types who were more than willing to with hold facts and truths they knew from the beginning. These are the worse types of liars in that they promote the risks of deaths to their fellow fire fighters–especially those young novice types such as Donut who could not name even one safety rule-things he had no clue existed until someone questioned him.
So if Donut is in attendance to get money then anything Joy has to contribute will be quashed. I dare say those men would much more have preferred money went to the safety of future fire fighters and not to elevate their hero status. Maybe that is where it will go?
I hope he does eventually.
**
** DEBORAH PFINGSTON ( MOTHER OF GM HOTSHOT ANDREW ASHCRAFT )
** STILL BELIEVES A MANUAL BURNOUT IS WHAT KILLED GM
In ‘Part 3’ of Deborah Pfingston’s recently published PODCAST Episode 10, she describes what it was really like to attend the 8 hour ‘question and answer’ session about Yarnell which was one of the conditions for settling the “wrongful death” lawsuits brought by 12 of the 19 GM families.
And in that ‘session’… she said she asserted her belief that the GM Hotshots were killed by a badly-timed manual backburn ( which she still believes, even now ).
And, according to Pfingston, no one who was there representing the 2013 Yarnell Fire ‘management team’ ever actually denied it.
Some of them just started crying.
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
PODCAST Episode 10: Thank You
Published: May 11, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-Ten-Thank-You-e40gp7
From the end of PART 2 and into the beginning of PART 3 in the PODCAST…
——————————————————————————————————-
Deborah Pfingston: One of the things that the familes did ask for, and stand strong for, was an eight-hour session with people from that fire… that the twelve families wanted to have representatives and meet with these people, with the Type 2 crew, the type 3 crew, the IC command, in a room, and we wanted to ask them questions… and it was approved. The Governor at the time, Governor Ducey, said ‘Yep’. Attorneys, which took forever, said it… that was part of the deal. The state Forester, who had changed, since then, approved it… and so we had an eight hour session.
So at this eight-hour session, the families requested that the Type 2 IC commanders be there. We also had a few others that we requested. Families were allowed to bring some people in. Chief Willis was there. We invited you, Doug. You were able to go in. We asked that Holly Neill, who is helping John Maclean and who discovered the audios be there… but she was denied. She was not allowed to be in there. The safety officers were given a grace. They… even though we wanted them there… they were given a grace so we weren’t able to ask any questions for the safety officers.
Doug Harwood: Because they didn’t show up on time…
Deborah Pfingston: No.
Dough Harwood: …to the fire?
Deborah Pfingston: Oh… yea… well… ya know… when… when one stays in Phoenix and the other only shows up 25 minutes… that is a legit point. Yea. Thanks Doug.
So we go to the eight-hour session and… part of the frustration with the eight-hour session is we were required to submit any question we asked to the state Forester for the people to look over a week before the eight-hour session… so that they could be prepared to answer.
And so… at the time I thought… this is so ridiculous let’s just… why don’t we just forget it, then… but it was also interesting to be there. I do wanna say at least there were some that showed up. The safety backed out… but the others showed up… and so… good for you. You were confronting some families that were pretty sad.
But the coupla things that came out of that eight-hour session for me is, number one, I didn’t realize how overwhelmed I would be. I went in there… I was prepared… I had notes… I had questions… I had things I wanted to ask… and then when I sat there… I was just overwhelmed… so I… I really didn’t achieve what I wanted to do and I beat myself up for that since… but I remember at one point finally saying this is… this is getting silly. This is… we’re just asking questions and we’re in this queue of rambling… and I said “this is what I believe happened”…
I believe that there was a… uhm… backburn put… you know… put on the ground.
I believe that’s what killed the guys.
And I just gave them the whole thing that we’ve talked about in these podcasts.
And… they sat there quiet.
A couple of them started crying.
And the others… they just sat there quiet.
And then… I will never forget a comment by that Type 2 IC commander.
He looked at me and he said…
“Deborah… those boys are in heaven. Would you want us in jail?”
And… honestly… I was dumbfounded by that comment.
Part of me said “Yes. Yes sir. If you did something so wrong… and you knew it was wrong… and nineteen men died… yes, sir… I believe you should be sitting in jail.
But… what I’m asking is for you to be honest.
For us to learn what happened… so that this doesn’t happen again.”
And so I had all that going through my mind… so I sat there like a bump on a log.
Doug Harwood: Yea. It’s hard to get what you wanna say out. Yea.
Deborah Pfingston: Yea. You know… it’s one of those situations where you’re driving home and it’s like “Ooo… I shoulda said this”, “Ooo… I shoulda said that”.
So, in reality, I kinda believe that that eight hours… This… I wish I could have it back.
I wish I could have that eight hours NOW… knowing what I know NOW.
Not being in shock. Not going through all of the hours in attorney’s offices.
Not having to be kind to people.
You know… I just… I wish I woulda had it back.
Doug Harwooed: Or… if… if you were an investigator… who had the opportunity to really investigate this and ask these questions that you wanted to ask…. that’s probably what NEEDS to happen…
Deborah Pfingston: Right.
Doug Harwood: …instead of family members having to think about these questions and do this themselves.
Deborah Pfingston: Yes.
Doug Harwood: It should be… it should be already taken care of.
Deborah Pfingston: Well… you know… and I walk around town and occasionally I’ll see them… and… because they also live in the area, some of ’em… and I think… I wanna walk up and say “are you done deceiving yourself?” And then… then I… then I feel conviction and I think… ya know… uhm… it… it’s a tragic thing… and when… when you’re part of tragedy things happen… and I understand how it… it… works in your mind.
But I do wish that someone would finally STEP UP
———————————————————————————————————-
Followup…
In her May 11, 2019 PODCAST, when Deborah Pfingston asserted ( to the actual 2013 Yarnell Fire management team )…
—————————————————————————————————
I believe that there was a… uhm… backburn put… you know… put on the ground.
I believe that’s what killed the guys.
—————————————————————————————————
…and after everyone fell silent ( and some of them just started crying )… Pfingston then relates what the first verbal reaction to her asserted ‘belief’ was.
NOTE: The ‘Type 2 IC Commander’ that Pfingston is now referring to was most likely Roy Hall himself.
————————————————————————————————-
And then… I will never forget a comment by that Type 2 IC commander.
He looked at me and he said…
“Deborah… those boys are in heaven. Would you want us in jail?”
—————————————————————————————————-
…then… in the recent PODCAST… Pfingston then says she wishes she had the chance to ‘go back’ and ask more questions because of the following…
—————————————————————————————————
I wish I could have that eight hours NOW… knowing what I know NOW.
—————————————————————————————————
However… she doesn’t explain what this really means.
She doesn’t elaborate on what it might be that she knows NOW… versus what she did NOT know at the time the ‘question and answer’ session took place… or how she even came to ‘KNOW MORE’ than she did ‘back then’.
I don’t what this statement means, or what to make of it? Does anybody else?
“Deborah… those boys are in heaven. Would you want us in jail?”
Well… given the way Pfingston was “telling the story”… that appears to have been Roy Hall himself making the first actual ‘verbal’ reaction to Pfingston asserting her belief that a manual burnout is what killed GM.
So… taken in that context… that could almost be construed as an ADMISSION on Hall’s part that her ‘belief’ was TRUE… but why should anyone ever KNOW about it outside of that room.
Actually…what I meant to say, is that I don’t understand what this question could possibly mean other than an acceptance of guilt in the deaths of “those boys.” And an attempt to justify and rationalize their actions that resulted in the deaths of “those boys” by negotiating their freedom in exchange for the help they gave “those boys” in getting to heaven.
I mean…they have got to be kidding…right?
No… he ( Roy Hall? ) wasn’t kidding.
At that moment… he was just “dangling the carrot” in front of a woman he knew to be sort of “around the bend” with the whole “Christianity” thing.
The card he was playing there was that… yes… no matter how ( or why ) it happened… wasn’t it really better they were all now “in heaven” than any “earthly consternation” about WHO or WHAT may have been responsible for it?
Like he was expecting her to THANK him, or something.
It was a disgusting “play” on a widow’s vulnerabilities.
Darrell Willis pulled the same shit in that “press conference” he was allowed to narrate from the deployment site with his “preacher-wannabe” approach… but with his own queer brand of military-style-evangelicalism thrown into the mix.
His “theme” was that no matter HOW it happened… the IMPORTANT thing was that they “died with honor” ( like good little soldiers ) and were now fulfilling that “greater purpose” that the big “G’ must have had in mind for them.
You Just. Can’t. Make. This. Shit. Up.
Look… the whole point of that court-ordered meeting was to just tell whatever family members who bothered to show up whatever they wanted to hear… and just “get all this over with once and for all” and get back to “business as usual”.
What is interesting is what might have actually been “revealed” while they were in the process of doing that.
Okay… correction for above.
I said…
“It was a disgusting “play” on a widow’s vulnerabilities.”
Deborah Pfingston was Andrew Ashcrat’s biological MOTHER.
She was ( of course )… not his “widow”.
Should have said…
“It was a disgusting play on a mother’s vulnerabilities after just having lost her SON”.
So yea… even the IDEA that ( Roy Hall? ) would put the “J” word ( Jail ) into that response to her means he had already been realizing that it was a real possibility.
Well…in that case, I guess if we do what The Woodsman suggested a few days ago and follow Roy Hall’s logic to its ultimate conclusion, someone would be doing him a big favor by killing him?
But maybe that would depend on whether or not Roy Hall is scheduled to go to heaven…or not? How could someone possibly know that?
And I hate to bring this up…but do we know for a fact that all 19 of those boys did actually go to heaven? I mean, what if…
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 19, 2019 at 1:49 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> And I hate to bring this up…but do
>> we know for a fact that all 19 of
>> those boys did actually go to
>> heaven? I mean, what if…
I checked Wikipedia.
It doesn’t say anything about it one way or the other…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yarnell_Hill_Fire
** TOTAL SIDENOTE:
Even after almost 6 years, half-a-dozen books, and a major-budget Hollywood movie… there actually still isn’t even a ‘Wikipedia’ page for the “Granite Mountain Hotshots”.
– There’s one for the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
– There’s one for the MOVIE “Only the Brave” ( but you have to double-search because that was, in fact, about the SIXTH time that title was used for a movie ).
– There’s one for the Prescott Fire Department ( which mentions GM briefly )
– There’s even a page dedicated to the “Granite Mountain Hotshots Memorial State Park”.
But there is still no page dedicated to “The Granite Mountain Hotshots” themselves.
That’s actually pretty odd, all things considered.
Yes it is, especially considering the Arrowhead Hotshots have a special page for Dan Holmes that has a place of honor on their website that come in their menu only after their “home” page and “Aplicant Info “ page which comes in second for some reason? I am going to be curious how they deal with this new tragedy on the website? I mean it might look a little awkward like admitting they didn’t learn their lesson in dealing with nasty and deadly snags the FIRST time.
But all of that being said, I would like to be able to confirm that all 19 members of the Granite Mountain Crew did in fact get into heaven since so many people seem to be using that assumption to justify not only the actions of the crew that day and their own culpability, but the actions, culpability, responsibility and accountability.
I’m going to go out on another limb here and suggest that maybe one reason they hsvent done so is that I have noticed they have an obsesssive and compulsive disorder when it comes to controlling the narrative and the rules of Wilipedia just doesn’t allow for one sided information to be placed on it so maybe discretion is the better part if valor?
Whoops,
“….but the actions, culpability, responsibility and accountability of themselves in what have been direct causal actions.”
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 19, 2019 at 9:13 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I would like to be able to confirm
>> that all 19 members of the Granite
>> Mountain Crew did in fact get into
>> heaven since so many people
>> seem to be using that assumption
>> to justify not only the actions of
>> the crew that day and their own
>> culpability, .but the actions,
>> culpability, responsibility and
>> accountability of themselves in
>> what have been direct causal
>> actions.
Screw Wikipedia. Can’t trust it anyway.
To this day… even their page dedicated to the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire is nowhere near accurate.
So I took the gloves off and did the best Google searching I know how to do… but sorry to report… there is no confirmation to be found.
LMAO.
Since it really appears to be Roy Hall himself who was passing that “news’ on to Pfingston… maybe someone should ask HIM to confirm, or at least reveal his sources so we can double-check the information.
Maybe Roy Hall was originally quoting Darrell Willis and now Willis is quoting Hall?
And so they now have a symbiotic closed loop in their own bubble of lies, evasion, deceit, obfuscation, deflection,, manipulation, false promises, justification, rationalization, and a unholy alliance to blame (or give credit to) God for their terrible and unforgivable mistakes?
I actually want to forigive them, but before I can do that, they must accept responsibility, repent, atone of their sins, and ask God and country for forgiveness AFTER they tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help them God.
And no more lies by omission which is as bad as any other lie, My potty mouth isn’t the problem, THEIR potty mouth of lies is the problem.
Question to Gary–If crews were burning on Sesame, Shrine Area and so forth, how would that have been done? Would the crew chief himself decide to do the burn or would it have to be sanctioned or ordered from someone above. And where would Roy Hall be in the pecking order?
This comment went out to Joy up in Missoula looking at the Mann Gulch ordeal and recovering from a dog bite.
Sounds serious. I am eating barley and drinking green tea and banana here spiked with mesquite honey for my medicine. I thought I would not make it through the last week but here I am still. Might have to use that hole I am digging for a fish pond for the last rites but I haven’t built the coffin yet nor hope to use it anytime soon.
Our bodies are amazing to keep on ticking and taking the licking including the poisons being constantly dumped from the sky and put in our foods. I am absolutely suspect of any drug (just watch the TV adds and how well lawyers are making out for the damages from them). I did not even take the antibiotics they gave me after all the surgeries but I would not advise my methods to anyone. My immune system is tops and that is an inherited trait–on my Dad’s side they all made the 90’s. So I guess I will have to die the natural way.
I Did plant some rosemary, and some Aloe Vera and will do some carrot juice today. Maybe turn orange from the carotene to look like the retardant that looks so beautiful but hopefully the only thing I help kill will be the lies we were fed about the Yarnell deaths and fires-deaths in the hundreds after the GMHS 19 resulting from only two wild fires of 2013 and 2015. Did post last night –that Phingston’s questions WTKTT put on were a dead give away pointing to a burn that killed those men.
She fell into the system buffalo program where the wild land fighter can do no wrong and whoever runs those programs is a master at mind fuck. That whole group except maybe two or three fell for the line to keep people looking good –they did not understand and 25 grand or whatever paltry sums they got had their minds off the real situation of continuing the marsh types to do their dirty work of needlessly risking lives. To people that were on the lower range of the pay scale, 25 or 50 grand looked like a bundle when they deserved a million minimum and all guaranteed University training or the like for the children that want it. They got suckered by the people like those that “you don’t want us to go to prison” that responded to Phingston. It is hard to understand when they were being mind fucked. But those kids might have redress–though there is statue of limitations, although not for murder. That is the stuff Gary or WTKTT would have better insight too.
It is terrible to see how lightly the lives of those kids were disregarded in the way that Marsh and others risked their lives. Then after their deaths hid the real truth so that reputations and perhaps “prison time” for some was in order had been avoided. All that at the expense of the safety of future lives. Well I am a walking dead man so I do not mind telling it as I see it. But then I see too many that are knowledgeable and wise and long term professional wild fighters that agree and post their disdain for the way things were and continue to be handled.
Joy you have been a hero and in my book always will be. You have stood the test of patience and held fast to the truth and expended much flack on the behalf of those young dead firemen. But there are many others also that have shown the persistence to getting the truth out there. Among those are Gary, RTS, Woodsman, Norb, and many other citizens, not the least being WTKTT–all heroes due the highest respect. A hero is one who will hold to the truth despite all the evil garbage and hatred thrown at their good and proper efforts. It will in time work itself out in the Yarnell case–too much is known and too many realize the magnitude of evil to withhold the truth concerning the death of those young GMHS heroes.
I do hope this will find you in greater health and happiness.
As an afterthought I post this letter to Joy–So many deserve honor in their fight for those young souls and the safety of future wild land fire fighters that deserve good bosses ready to take measures to protect their lives. Too many in the profession are hiding the truth to protect their own reputations, jobs and perhaps stay away from the prisons as Phingston’s post by WTKTT admits. It was a pittance that the state awarded to the loved ones and it is a sad thing to note the low pay of the young men working under dangerous conditions magnified by those bosses that consider the safety rules as “hillbilly”.
The people who are out to change the system are the heroes–certainly not those involved in the cover up and mind fuck they have done to maintain their reputations.
Knowing the real truth is always a mystery to be solved.
Yes Roy Hall is referring to his Heaven as he would define it.
I had been digging a pond out so had not followed IM so a while. Whew WTKTT–You come up with some things that amaze me– This Phingston report you presented is convincing enough to warrant plenty of investigation on the back burn issue. The answers and responses indicate that people involved know much more than reported. It brings me back to Gary’s statement about what wild land fire fighters do–they burn. And in those instances, the stobs that Holley mentioned, the many testimonies that Joy has uncovered and common sense of what would have been done leads me to think indeed those separated smoke stacks are indications of burns being in operation,.
Now I do know that from that conversation, it is certain that the truth of what went on was stretched as had been in other incidences involving fire fighter deaths.
So thanks for your continued good efforts and excellent reports.
On that topic WTKTT–I believe Joy is this very week coming out with the facts to back Phingston’s report that back fires did kill the men. The RTS photos revealing the separated smoke stacks and Holly’s revealing of the stobs near Helm’s Ranch that were not related to the attempt of GMHS to clear a spot only add up to time proof of photos and some testimonies that have already been given.
Phingston was right and so was the Deputy that worked there that day–that crew was in constant contact during those times Willis said that there was no contact for thirty minutes was to lay the blame entirely to Marsh and Steed. This way no one would have to own up to their part in getting the men down there knowing that there were backburns in place already as they marched down into the most dangerous death situation all because someone directing traffic wanted it that way.,
Reply to Charlie post on May 24, 2019 at 9:47 pm
>> Charlie said…
>>
>> I believe Joy is this very week coming out with the facts to
>> back Phingston’s report that back fires did kill the men.
Looking forward to any/all information about it.
FWIW… the link below is to ‘Episode 4’ of Deborah Pfingston’s recently-published ( public ) PODCASTS. That’s the ‘Episode’ where she and former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood pretty much ‘lay out’ their own ‘reasoning’ with regards to their ‘belief’ there was a backburn that killed GM.
I say ‘reasoning’ and ‘belief’ because even they really don’t have any PROOF.
It’s just something they have come to ‘believe’…. but at least they ‘spell out’ the reasons WHY they ‘believe it’ so the listener can make up their own mind(s).
The only real REVELATION in this ‘Episode’ is that Deborah Pfingston has, apparently, obtained a copy of the UNREDACTED Blue Ridge Hotshot Unit Logs via her own FOIA request.
She says that one of the UNREDACTED parts of the Blue Ridge Unit logs has Blue Ridge saying ( in writing ) that THEY heard Granite Mountain calling out for HELP on multiple TAC radio channels ( at least both TAC 1 and TAC 5 ) BEFORE there was the radio traffic heard on the Air-To-Ground channel.
Deborah Pfingston even goes so far as to suggest that Blue Ridge heard Granite Mountain ‘calling for HELP’ up to 15 minutes before the final A2G radio traffic that was captured in Aaron Hulburd’s video.
That is, of course, absurd. If they were standing out there in the canyon calling for HELP for 15 minutes… they had all the time in the world to either go forward and reach the Blulder Springs Ranch, or go backwards and get back up/over the ridge.
But that’s what she says.
She says a lot of other things that are absurd… such as SPGS1 Gary Cordes having been the last firefighter to exit the Sesame Street area… but whadda you gonna do.
She believes what she believes.
She also says she believes the following…
1. That Eric Marsh took sawyer Anthony Rose with him when he went ahead of the men, and that Anthony Rose used his chainsaw to cut a complete P-Line as an Escape Route ALL the way from the two-track on the ridge, through the box canyon, and ALL the way to the Boulder Springs Ranch.
2. That Eric Marsh was the “designated lookout” for GM and their “eyes on the fire” for the entire time that day.
3. That Eric Marsh was on an elevated spot near the Boulder Springs Ranch and could see EVERYTHING that afternoon. The main fire, the GM Hotshots moving through the canyon… and she even flat-out says that Eric Marsh SAW the backburn being set.
She, of course, offers no explanation for how Marsh could have seen EVERYTHING, including the start of the Sesame Street backburn… and still everyone DIED. She doesn’t even seem to realize that her own beliefs mean it was Marsh himself who then TOTALLY FAILED as a ‘lookout’ and let the men keep walking into a deathtrap.
Anyway… there are lots of other places where this PODCAST goes “off the rails”… but that’s for another post at another time.
At least this is the one where THEY explain why they THINK there was a backburn…
Our Investigation, Our Truth
What happened to the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshots
By: Deborah Pfingston ( with former GM Hotshot Doug Harwood )
Published: March 18, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-4-All-the-Dominoes-Line-Up-to-Tragedy-e3fp08
Does this mean I don’t get to watch and listen to Joy on C-Span?
https://www.firerescuemagazine.com/articles/print/volume-13/issue-3/departments/wildland-urban-interface/hotshots.html
From that article…
————————————————————————————————–
Hotshots are the elite “special forces” of the wildland firefighting world and, currently, there has been no shortage in demand for their services.
The dangers they face were tragically demonstrated on June 30, 2013, when 19 of the 20 Granite Mountain Hotshots were killed at the Yarnell Hill Fire in Arizona. Extreme weather conditions caused a 180-degree shift in wind and trapped the experienced crew. Poor radio communications made it nearly impossible to summon for help or to provide an accurate location to aircrews. Although they all deployed their fire shelters correctly, none survived because of the limitations of current shelter technology.
————————————————————————————————-
Soooo… the “big bad fire just came and got them”?
Total horseshit.
They died because of their own poor decision making and failure to follow the rules of engagement for their own profession.
It was the “Greatest Blunder in the History of Wildland Firefighting”.
With regards to this…
“Although they all deployed their fire shelters correctly…”
More horseshit.
Even the whitewashed Special Accident Investigation Report (SAIR) couldn’t ignore the known TRUTH… and officially reported that it was basically a ‘botched’ deployment… with packs all over the site, some of the men lying ON or NEAR gas-filled chainsaws and fuel bottles… only 9 of them had their gloves on… and no evidence that half of them ever even made it into their shelters at all…
From PDF page 89 of the SAIR
————————————————————————————————-
Fire Shelter Deployment:
A few packs were thrown clear of the deployment site, but some fireline packs with fusees and saw gas and oil, hand tools, and a chainsaw were found throughout the deployment site.
Some firefighters lied on or directly next to some of these items.
( Only ) Nine firefighters were wearing gloves.
( Only ) Seven firefighters were found inside fully deployed fire shelters.
Another four firefighters were inside their shelters mostly deployed. Eight of the firefighters were found with partially deployed shelters; five of the eight were outside of their shelters, lying supine.
The evidence is unclear as to whether the partially-deployed firefighters were in the process of deploying their shelters when they were overtaken, or if they were fully deployed inside their shelters and then attempted to move with the shelter or attempted to exit the shelter.
————————————————————————————————-
“You should NOT honor men MORE than TRUTH”.
Plato
( NOTE: EMPHASIS on the above quote is mine. Plato was not fond of using CAPSLOCK. )
And as for this…
“…none survived because of the limitations of current shelter technology.
So it was totally the fault of the “current shelter technology”, eh?
It was ‘because’ of this that ‘none survived’, eh?
Well… after FIVE YEARS… the NWCG has just announced TOTAL FAILURE in trying to come with a better fire shelter… and there will be NO CHANGE to the “current fire shelter technology”…
Five Year Effort to Improve Fire Shelters FAILS
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/05/17/five-year-effort-to-improve-fire-shelter-fails/
When the 12 GM families celebrated their “victory” after their lawsuits, which FORCED the industry to come up with a new fire shelter design… I will bet they didn’t think the actual outcome was going to be simply TOTAL FAIL
I’ll bet they are all pretty pissed right about now… and feeling like their loved ones “died for nothing” all over again.
.
I would stress that Fire shelters have never been proven to be 100% effective.
Back in the 60’s and 70’s we fully believed we had a 50/50 chance of survival
if we deployed. many of us fought fire with the plan to never have to use a fire shelter.
The first 10 years we never even had a dummy shelter to practice with. Just training film and one shelter to show how to deploy.
LCES is probably 95% more effective plan than to bet your life on a deployment.
Totally agree.
They actually never should have been CALLED “Fire Shelters” in the first place.
They were only DESIGNED to be “Radiant Heat Reflectors”… and even then… only for a ( very ) limited range and a ( very ) short amount of time.
The only real cure is prevention.
Don’t ever get in a situation where you ever even need the damn thing.
That being said…
I still think it had not actually occurred to the families of the deceased GM crew who fought HARD tor an “improvements” to the design that the court-ordered effort would simply end in TOTAL FAILURE.
For those family members who WERE thinking these “improvements” represented the only chance for the loss of their loved ones to have had any effect at all on the way the WF Industry operates… they must be pretty pissed right about now.
Well there is really more to it than that.
The shelter is folded into the pack. If it is used/carried for a full season by heavily used crews the folds would disintegrate. This is the old shelter used between1966 and into the early 90s. We were never informed of that until the late 70s. They came out and told us to plan on a 1 to 3 year replacement. Back then they were around $100 each.
Funding took awhile to catch up with the need. We were replacing on some forests from 100 to 300 shelters every 1 to 3 years. The hot shot crew on the Sawtooth was replacing these shelters on a yearly basses. We were finding that where the shelter was creased in the plastic pack was flaking off on the corners. That severely degraded their ability to provide a safe shelter. I have no idea how much more durable the newer ones are that replaced the first ones.
Sounds like a catch 22. And if they can not come up with a new shelter what dose that tell you about the ones being packed today?????
I had in mind that we all love a camp fire–something that is in our genetic makup from since the Irish Gods and Goddesses designed our DNA. But some where I read that firemen are 80% of the cause of arson fires. Whether that figure is true or someones
imagination I do not know. But to be a fireman, it is certain you have to have a somewhat elevated interest in fires.
But on the Yarnell incident, I imagined why that lightning strike was not taken care of immediately–something that my Dad and I did on occasions in the forest of the Big Burro Mountains near Silver City, New Mexico. I thought that why three local fire departments all in pain and direct view of the fire did not take care of that strike even knowing how quickly it would spread under the extreme dry conditions and dense forage about the fire was because they were hoping it would spread. That meant plenty of work for the men and the excitement of engaging a wild fire.
I do know there in the Prescott area there was a fireman boss setting fires and he said he was doing it because he knew the areas he had committed arson in were areas that needed burning out. He got a slap on the hand by the judge as I remember; however, had someone been killed he might have gotten some heavy time such as the fire investigator that was setting fires in California that did kill people including a child.
I believe the second fire that happened at Yarnell called the Tenderfoot fire was an arson case. It was investigated that way with the Rancher being a suspect. Joy and I visited him at this home but he was not even in the area at the time and could prove he was off in Phoenix the day it started.
Joy did find out who was in the area at the time and you might be surprised to who she had evidence on. But because it is circumstantial and given to her from another source she has not mentioned it. That fire actually was North East of Yarnell about a mile or two–one of the firefighters gave Joy and I a map of its exact point of origen and I am certain Joy still has the map.
Incidentally that fire would have burned itself out but that burn that supposedly saved Yarnell went right on over the hill and caused another high intensity operation–the firefighter that gave the map was with a crew out of Las Cruces, NM.
There was a huge operation and millions allotted and profited to the Yarnell Operations. and fire fighting people simply because of neglect to take care of a lightening strike as it should have been treated–an extreme emergency. But the horror of the error was a huge factor in the deaths of the GMHS Crew of 19.
The fire shelter thing was and is another diversion. Maybe those Hollywood fire suits are fine for that job but on a wild land fire? Rediculous–that fire was spewing out the energy of an atom bomb every 15 minutes according to Morrison and Wootson–scientists working in the wild land fire industry. Sonny and Joy’s hikes–I was pointing out old carnation evaporated milk cans she photographed that had the lead seals melted right out of their tops while lying right out in the open spaces around that old grader Donut thought would be a safe spot–while the steel on the floorboard of that old grader had turned blue and that means that quarter inch plate had been heated to around 600F. Lead melts at 621F, so we know for a fact that Donut would have been roasted had he deployed at the grader spot. Yet no fire suit would do you any good had you taken even one whif of that air heated to what was said to be at 1500F. Your lungs would immediately be seared and your breathing apparatus completely ruined. So Gary speaks of the futility of carrying safety blankets because any would have been useless in the Yarnell incident where men would have been roasted and killed regardless of a better blanket.
Gary has made much of the safety zone thing and a good thing for anyone to know. The Helms, with their property so well cleaned and with its so called bomb proof escape zone was not that at all. Had there not been walls the Helms would have suffered certain deaths along with the 19 that had no walls and a small clearing to lie in. The truth was they were put into a certain death situation by the careless actions of their leaders. This stuff about the fire blankets is a diversionary tactic and had absolutely nothing to do with the cause of the deaths of those men. No blanket or even the best Hollywood fire suit would have saved those men. So how about Hall, Willis, and cronies, and others talking about the real ways those lives would have been saved.
Whoops…this article showed up again in my feed and I didn’t reignite it as one I already posted.
No prob. That particular article is so far around the bend it was worth another look… and it has also achieved NEW relevance now that the NWCG has announced they have TOTALLY FAILED to come up with a new design, and there will ( officially ) be NO CHANGES to the current “fire shelter”.
Now that they have achieved “TOTAL FAIL”… perhaps they should just issue an order that they STOP being referred to as “fire shelters”, and will, from now on, ONLY ever be referred to as “radiant heat reflectors”.
Because that’s all the “current design” has ever been ( or ever will be ).
Yes…it is a long ways around the bend from reality.
If your plan is to deploy in a safety zone (BSR) then you need a better Safety Zone.
I’m pretty sure that if Deborah Pfingston and I agree on something, it’s game over…case closed because she has always been at the center of the “Families.”
Saving the crew from the budget axe is EXACTLY why the Granite Mountain Hotshots died. Everything else is just backstory. I just don’t think Mrs. Phington is connecting the final dot.
The final dot is Eric Marsh who ordered Andrew (and everyone else) to his death in pursuit of his Don Quixotesque vain, insane, foolish and ultimately suicidal quest to save his dream of proving everyone wrong who thought he was a terminal fuck up…which was pretty much everybody.
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We now are going to have a beautiful memorial, from loving people, down on the town square, and people submitted these beautiful ideas for them to pick through… and I sarcastically wanted to submit the idea of the crew… because the memorial is going to be right across the street from the city hall… and I thought it would be really good for the crew to kind of be “making gestures” towards the city. Andrew had a tendency to “shoot the moon” to everybody. Anybody that knew Andrew, at one point in their time, had seen his naked rear end at something and I always thought, well, maybe Andrew should kinda shoot the city hall the “final moon”.
This is a good article from Farnam Street that I think clearly relates to fatal GMHS decision making on June 30, 2013 and why other WFs impulsively do stupid s**t sometimes, one of the Hazardous Attitudes listed in the IRPG and other Human Factors publications.
“Do Something Syndrome: Why Movement Trumps Results
“Solving problems almost always starts with ensuring you’re solving the actual problem. When the actions we should take are not obvious, or the problem is difficult, it’s easy to feel the need to do something … anything. We convince ourselves that motion is better than inaction. The choice, however, isn’t between action and inaction. This is a false duality. There is a third option that often makes the most sense.
“We trained hard, but it seemed that every time we were beginning to form into teams, we would be reorganized. I was to learn later in life that we tend to meet any new situation by reorganizing, and what a wonderful method it can be for creating the illusion of progress while producing confusion, inefficiency, and demoralization.”
— Roman satirist Petronius Arbiter
“There is something almost poetic in the way that Petronius (27 AD — 66 AD) so succinctly captures a phenomenon that most of us have been through.
Poorly performing organizations or divisions reorganize all the time. Sometimes the source of the problem is the organization, more often than not, however, reorganizations offer little impact on the results.
“Consider taking charge of a poorly performing division at work. The pressure to deliver is high. You’re told this is your big opportunity. You’re advised to take charge and lead. You’ve been taught that doing something is the same as results, so you naturally mistake movement for results. So it’s only natural that you come up with a plan to move the boxes around and reorganize the division.
“Movement offers shelter from failure. When you’re in motion, you feel like you’re doing something. We convince ourselves that as long as we’re in motion, we can’t fail. As long as we’re doing something, anything, failure can’t really find us.
“Movement feeds our ego. Our evolutionary programming craves the validation of others. In a world that values action and short soundbites, nuanced conversations are hard. Others don’t have time to really listen to your nuanced story as they run to their next meeting. And telling people that you’re doing nothing results in disapproving looks. Movement offers the drug of validation to the outside world. It is far easier to tell others that we’re doing something than doing nothing. And so we do.
“Perhaps a few examples will help illustrate the concept. First, consider the person we all know that is always planning to start a business. Planning is doing something. It’s action. We can tell others about our dreams, and as long as we’re planning we never risk failure. Second, consider the person who has been writing a book for years. The movement of editing and refining serve a purpose, of course, but when that purpose becomes an end we never get results. There is no risk of failure if you don’t publish your work. Finally, consider the person that wants to get a promotion at work. They take on so many new projects they are always too busy to apply for that promotion. They’re busy but they aren’t getting the results they want.
“Movement teases us with the illusion of progress. However, action for the sake of action that results in success is nothing more than dumb luck. And Confusing movement with results often makes things worse, not better.
“I don’t know about you, but I’d rather make success a little less about luck every day.
Motion is easy. Results are hard.
“Preparations are necessary but not sufficient for achieving results. The actions we take are often just preparations for what we really want to accomplish. We read a diet book instead of dieting. We learn how to use Shopify or Woo commerce instead of starting a store. When we confuse preparations with the end instead of the means, we really trick ourselves.
“Maybe Pascal was right when he said, “The sole cause of man’s unhappiness is that he does not know how to stay quietly in his room.” And yet this inability to sit quietly serves us as well. You wouldn’t be reading this right now if the people who made your device sat quietly in a room. As with everything, it’s not black and white. We have to learn when sitting quietly in a room serves us and when it hurts us.
“Doing something isn’t the same as getting results. The problem is we convince ourselves that our only options are to do something or do nothing. We forget the third option, gathering more information. While there will always be pressure to do something immediately with urgency, most of the time that action will be wasted. We’d be much better off if we stop for a moment and gather more information before acting.
“The next time you feel the urge to do something for the sake of doing something remember what Thoreau said: ‘It is not enough to be busy; so are the ants. The question is: What are we busy about?’”
( https://fs.blog/2015/06/do-something-syndrome/ )
Link for above post
RTS,
Could the 50 minutes that GMHS spent waiting in the black before eventually hiking toward BSR on the afternoon of 6/30/2013 have been spent gathering more information?
They had the INFO they needed, weather Forecast, Fuels dry late in the day, actual site of the Fire front. It was not a matter of if the fire was going to run across the fuel below them toward the BSR but when. I would have chosen to stay in 400 Plus Acers of Black than move to the BSR through unburned fuel and down a canyon.
How likely is it that GMHS was waiting in the black to determine if firefighters already present in the Yarnell area could control the escalating situation before they made the move to BSR and Yarnell?
Under normal circumstances they were assigned to that location and would not move unless directed by the IC. They were really in no position to assist in Yarnell. The IC thought they were in the Black and staying there.
Even if they had moved early to BSR the would have been trapped there until the fire burned over The BSR. They had absolutely no way to assist in Yarnell
All the crews were staging at the Restaurant.
Woops Joy called me out on my statement all crews were staging at the Restaurant…..
Rephrase—-The Blue Ridge HS, some Eng. crews and the GM crew vehicles were at the restaurant. Every one else was leaving the fire to some point.
My point was no one was trying to save Yarnell with hand crews.
THERE IS NO PROOF THAT GM LEFT THE FIRE TO SAVE YARNELL.
Well said RTS-and doing something can be progress if done in a correct and proper manner. That was the fault of GMHS leaders–they did something and got results congruent with their poor judgement and basic rule of safety violations.
If it is any truth to the matter, the reference by Gary to the Memorial for the GMHS would be properly assigned the label of reorganized Wild Land Fire Fighting under Marsh, Steed , et. al. and how self agrandizement by the leaders has led us to witness the deaths due to careless blunders at Yarnell. Where can you justify what we all witnessed as one of the new extreme fires where the bosses had no clue as to how to fight it starting with not containing a lightening strike immediately under the extreme fire conditions the area had been declared by the elite wild land fire fighter experts at hand.
Certainly when bosses do not understand the gravity of taking their men into the death trap situation by breaking every safety rule available and even common sense then we see a memorial of death by homicide by some definition or another. Marsh wrote the book on how to kill your crew and that should be made public and a number one priority for people, especially the wild land fire fighter to read and understand.
I dont’t know if they saved a 7 thousand or whatever thousand year old alligator juniper tree, but the tree survived itself for thousands of years without any fire fighter aid. So suddenly after all these thousands of years the tree needed fire fighter protection, That sounds like another Yarnell needed fire fighter help after the wild fire became uncontrollable by even an army and Jumbo Jet loads of the pollutants they spread. I have to be suspect of the means that people in wild land fire fighting are going to get to their ends and I am suspect of what they are really doing by these cover ups. Yet the culprits seem to be doing it well enough to fool the general public and have no remorse for allowing the truth to be hidden.
Father, lead us not into temptation–that of trying to elevate our status by needlessly risking and killing our crew because we can and for reasons to prove we are something we are not.
Good to hear Ms. Lomas–she asks some good questions–I want to hear the answer to that one.
Hello from the GMIHC Learning and Tribute Center!
Thank you for visiting our Center during our first year of operation. We hope you enjoyed the tribute to our Brave 19 as well as seeing some of the many items left at the Station 7 fence after the tragedy. We are hosting a very special event featuring a showing of the movie, Only the Brave, and a panel discussion with survivor Brendan McDonough, father John Marsh, movie producer Mike Menchel, and more. We hope you can join us for this event. The details are listed below. Please feel free to share this with anyone you feel would enjoy this event. Thank you.
PS. We are making some changes in the Center for our one year anniversary on June 29, 2019. We hope you can stop by soon!
Kindest regards,
GMIHC Learning and Tribute Center Board
Inline image OWAPstImg961681
An Evening Honoring the Brave 19
benefiting the Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot Crew (GMIHC) Learning and Tribute Center
Date: Wednesday, June 19, 2019
Purpose: The Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew (GMIHC) Learning and Tribute Center is raising funds to acquire a larger, freestanding building to honor our brave 19 hotshots who perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. The Center will also be expanded into a one-of-a-kind educational facility teaching about wildland firefighting and fire prevention. The Center will house all the artifacts left at the tribute fence around Station 7 after the tragedy, and it is operated and maintained solely by community volunteers.
Schedule:
3:30 pm Check in (Each ticket holder receives limited edition GM hotshot challenge coin at check in.)
4:00 pm – Showing of movie, Only the Brave.
7:00 pm – Private event with heavy appetizers (from El Gato Azul), free beer (from Granite Mountain Brewing) and wine, music (by Rusty Pistols Reloaded), and silent auction of unique items.
7:45 pm – Q&A with panel about the movie. (Guests are encouraged to bring items for autographs and pictures at the end.)
Panelists: Survivor Brendan McDonough, Movie Producer Mike Menchel, Family Member John Marsh, GM Hotshot Alum and Movie Advisor Pat McCarty, & First Crew Chief Duane Steinbrink.
Attire: Prescott casual, feel free to wear your favorite firefighter t-shirt!
Location: Elks Theatre and Performing Arts Center, 117 East Gurley Street, Prescott, Arizona
Cost: $219 per person (proceeds benefit the GMIHC Learning and Tribute Center.)
Due to the intimate venue, seats are limited. Tickets may be purchased at http://bit.ly/gmihc19
Purpose for the ‘fundraiser’…
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The Granite Mountain Interagency Hotshot crew (GMIHC) Learning and Tribute Center is raising funds to acquire a larger, freestanding building to honor our brave 19 hotshots who perished in the Yarnell Hill Fire on June 30, 2013. The Center will also be expanded into a one of-a-kind educational facility teaching about wildland firefighting and fire prevention. The Center will house all the artifacts left at the tribute fence around Station 7 after the tragedy, and it is operated and maintained solely by community volunteers.
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All of those ‘reasons’ for this (new) fundraiser are the exact same ones that were given to the Prescott City Council for re-tasking the original Granite Mountain ‘Station 7’ when it was decided that it was no longer needed by the Prescott Fire Department.
The Wildland Firefighter Foundation stepped in and agreed to flat-out ‘purchase’ the building from the City of Prescott and allow it to become exactly all of those things outlined above.
But that is when Mrs. Amanda Lohman ( formerly the wife of GM crew Superintendent Eric Marsh ) stepped in and did what she could to ‘queer that deal’, apparently just because of some ongoing animosity between her fundraising organization and the long-established Wildland Firefighter Foundation.
The City of Prescott then ended up selling ‘Station 7’ to a Plumbing company instead.
Here is Amanda Lohman’s actual PUBLIC Facebook post where she admits she stepped in to help queer the deal… and it was because she ( herself ) couldn’t stomach the idea of anyone from the Wildland Firefighter Foundation (quote) “using Eric’s office” ( unquote )…
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Facebook
Eric Marsh Foundation for Wildland Firefighters
Sunday, September 16, 2018 at 1:35 PM
This is why I backed the Plumbing Store buying Station 7. I took a lot of heat for that. But my God, I couldnt stand the idea of them using Eric’s office.
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So that is when the people who hold the archived ‘Station 7’ fence memorabilia were out of a permanent place to display all that and they ended up just renting an old Footlocker Shoe Store out at the Prescott Mall.
They COULD have had exactly what they are now trying to raise (lots) of money to have, if the City of Prescott had simply allowed the Wildland Firefighter Foundation to purchase GM “Station 7”.
You Just.Can’t.Make.This.Shit.Up.
Maybe this whole thing will end up coming “full circle”.
Maybe the Wildland Firefighter Foundation will re-enter the picture and help this organization achieve their stated goal… as they generously offered to do in the first place.
But THIS time… the negotiations for purchasing the original “Station 7” will just be a private real-estate transaction with no “City Council” involved ( or able to be influenced ).
I still can’t think of a better place to ( quote from above ) “house all the artifacts left at the tribute fence around Station 7” than… well… you know… where it all appeared in the first place.
Speaking of ‘new memorials’ and whatnot…
Deborah Pfingston, the biological mother of deceased GM Hotshot Andrew Ashcraft, has recently been using the online ‘Anchor’ service to create a series of audio “podcasts” related to HER investigation of the 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire.
She started creating the online ( public ) “podcasts” in February of this year ( 2019 ), and there are now 10 of them online, with the most recent one being published just a few days ago, on May 11, 2019.
Podcast Series Title: “Our Investigation, Our Truth. What happened to the Granite Mountain Hotshots” by Deborah Pfingston
Podcast Episode: 10
Podcast Title: “Thank You”
Published: May 11, 2019
https://anchor.fm/our-truth/episodes/Episode-Ten-Thank-You-e40gp7/a-aes81p
This ‘Episode 10’ begings with current Prescott FD Firefighter ( and former GM Hotshot ) Doug Harwood describing how the City of Prescott, in the time leading up to the tragedy, was doing everything they could to just run the GM Hotshot crew “on the cheap”.
At +3:45, Deborah Pfingston then tells the story that when it came to ideas for the new ‘memorial’ on the Prescott Town Square, she wanted to submit the ‘idea’ that all the GM crew members be “making gestures” at the Prescott City Hall… and that her son Andrew, in particular, should be memorialized “shooting them the moon”…
Deborah Pfingston, at +3:45 in the podcast…
————————————————————————————————–
We now are going to have a beautiful memorial, from loving people, down on the town square, and people submitted these beautiful ideas for them to pick through… and I sarcastically wanted to submit the idea of the crew… because the memorial is going to be right across the street from the city hall… and I thought it would be really good for the crew to kind of be “making gestures” towards the city. Andrew had a tendency to “shoot the moon” to everybody. Anybody that knew Andrew, at one point in their time, had seen his naked rear end at something and I always thought, well, maybe Andrew should kinda shoot the city hall the “final moon”.
—————————————————————————————————-
What a lying and pandering sack of shit this bozo is.
Like other wildland firefighter fatalities, the death of Captain Brian Hughes of the Arrowhead Hotshots last year during the felling of a hazardous tree has had an effect on many of the 15,000 wildland firefighters in the Federal government. As described in the report that was released last week, Captain Hughes and others on the crew did many things right while working to get the tree on the ground, but he ended up in an unfortunate location when the tree fell in an unexpected direction. Many firefighters can relate to that and may have been in similar situations, but had a better outcome.
https://wildfiretoday.com/2019/05/14/fireline-fatality-shines-light-on-forest-service-workforce/
Bill Gabbert ( of Wildfire Today ) said…
“Captain Hughes and others on the crew did many things right while working to get the tree on the ground.”
Really?… Like what?
“…but he ended up in an unfortunate location when the tree fell in an unexpected direction. Many firefighters can relate to that and may have been in similar situations, but had a better outcome.”
Soooo… nothing to see there? Move along? Shit happens?
Gabbert is a company man. Always has been. Probably always will be.
The ‘letter’just written by that Type 1 IHC Hotshot Captain Kevin Mecham ( with the USFS Truckee Hotshots in Northern California ) was interesting, though.
Gabbert neglected to put any kind of DATE on the letter… or even say WHEN it was written.
Is he trying to say this letter was JUST NOW written, as some kind of reaction to the Brian Hughes report ( finally ) emerging?
I don’t know because I couldn’t see any connection myself? I never go to this pandering sack of shit’s blog unless I want a message from management, which I never do, but my iPad knows I click on stories about WLF so it put this story in my news feed.
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 15, 2019 at 7:38 am
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> I don’t know because I couldn’t see any connection myself?
Yea… since he put no DATE on the “letter”… it’s a little confusing.
From the letter itself…
—————————————————————————–
The catalyst of this letter is the line of duty death of friend and co-worker
Daniel Laird and the WO and RO’s management of its Forestry Technicians.
—————————————————————————–
NOTE: “WO” is ‘Washington Office’ and “RO” is “Regional Office”.
Daniel Laird is that USFS Helitack FF that died in the helicopter crash down in Texas, while doing prescribed-burn ‘aerial ignitions’, on March 27, 2019.
So the ‘letter’ had to have been written recently, and sometime after March 27, 2019, but Gabbert seemed to be trying to tie the letter to the recent release of the Brian Hughes fatality report ( even though it doesn’t mention Hughes at all ).
Whatever… it’s still a well-written, interesting letter and more proof that the actual “troops” are, themselves, getting FED UP with how things are.
What a lying and pandering sack of shit this bozo is.
Like other wildland firefighter fatalities, the death of Captain Brian Hughes of the Arrowhead Hotshots last year during the felling of a hazardous tree has had an effect on many of the 15,000 wildland firefighters in the Federal government. As described in the report that was released last week, Captain Hughes and others on the crew did many things right while working to get the tree on the ground, but he ended up in an unfortunate location when the tree fell in an unexpected direction. Many firefighters can relate to that and may have been in similar situations, but had a better outcome.
Whoops, wrong cut and paste…somehow.
Oh this is just great and the third time I have used the wisdom from a 1960’s cartoon strip to sum up our problem. “We have met the enemy and they are us.” It turns out we have an entire industry that is predicated by lying to ourselves, lying to each other, lying to the families and friends of the people we kill, and congratulating ourselves and each other whenever we do because we can’t handle the truth.
Reply to Gary Olson post on May 13, 2019 at 9:39 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Damn…this was at least their ( the Arrowhead Hotshots ) SECOND death from a tree strike.
Yep. Arrowhead Hotshot Daniel Holmes. October 2, 2004.
This was the accident that happened under the direction of Brit Rosso, and while the FFs were executing ‘his plan’ that day.
Brit Rosso is now the director of the National Park Service’s ‘Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center’ ( WFLLC ).
1. Prescribed burn.
2. Snag that was in the fireline and deemed ‘safe’ ended up catching fire from the initial ‘test burn’ that day… and immediately became ‘a new problem’.
3. Arrowhead Hotshots falling team was brought in by Rosso. Holmes was just a ‘swamper’.
4. No lookout was posted, even though the now-burning tree was an imminent threat.
5. Rosso wanted some hose lays that were near the hazard tree moved prior to dropping it.
6. Holmes and others were walking past the now-burning snag to help do that… and the top of the burning snag fell and hit Holmes directly on his helmet.
All of the NPS documents and reports regarding the 2004 death of Arrowhead Hotshot Daniel Holmes are here…
National Park Service Website
Grant West Incident, Daniel Holmes Fatality
Sequoia & Kings Canyon National Parks
https://www.nps.gov/articles/grant-west-incident-daniel-holmes-fatality.htm
Direct link to the ‘final’ Accident Report…
National Park Service
Holmes Serious Accient Investigation Report ( SAIR )
https://www.nps.gov/subjects/fire/upload/danholmes-accident-investigation-report-small.pdf
Forgot to mention…
On the day Arrowhead Hotshot Daniel Holmes was killed… Brit Rosso was the actual Superintendent of the Arrowhead Hotshots.
Is it just me, or does everyone think the Arrowhead Hotshots should have already learned how important it is to have the eyes of a spotter on a tree or snag who can effectively communicate with those working under it at all times, you know…just in case a big piece of it falls down?
“A lesson is learned when we change our behavior…indeed!”
I’m still trying to just fathom how, when you KNOW you have been called in to drop a hazard tree that caught on fire during a test-burn ( and should have been dropped before that, but that’s another story )… and now the whole prescribed burn is “at a halt” because of this new ( obvious ) “threat”… that you end up just walking right under the thing ( with no designated lookout ) just because Brit Rosso wanted some hose lays moved first.
It boggles the mind.
Also in the “it’s a small world” category…
On the day Arrowhead Hotshot Daniel Holmes was killed, Bill Kaage was the
Fire Management Officer at Sequoia and Kings Canyon National Parks, where Holmes lost his life.
Bill Kaage went ‘up the ladder’ and became the National Park Service’s Division Chief for the Fire and Aviation Management program.
Fast forward to now…
The newly-published Arrowhead Hotshot Captain Brian Hughes SAI report itself details its own timeline, and it says they were ‘done’ with the report on December 10 of last year ( 2018 )… and the ‘final factual report’ was delivered to NPS Fire and Aviation Division Chief Bill Kaage that same day.
So it appears it was Bill Kaage who then decided to “sit on it” and NOT publish it for another FIVE MONTHS.
That’s longer than it took to DO the full report in the first place.
I did have some scary moments as a hotshot sawyer working as a faller, but nothing that ever came close to the Arrowhead Hotshot shit show on the Ferguson Fire. I’m just as bad as the stupid fucks I have been railing against for the last six years because I tried to excuse their inexcusable behavior.
Everything the Arrowhead Hotshots did on the Ferguson Fire to bring that snag down was amateur hour with their Crew Boss probably watching as their Captain killed himself by being clinically stupid and obviously devoid of any faller training or common sense.
There aren’t any acceptable excuses for what happened that day. My attempt to justify their actions by using the nostalgic, outdated and highly romanticized version of riding hard for the brand while shooting from the hip hotshot ethos of yesteryear is unacceptable and belongs in the history books as examples of how not to run a hotshot crew. You can’t fix stupid and there is a lot of stupid on the Arrowhead Hotshots.
The Arrowhead Hotshots should be immediately decertified as a hotshot crew and their chain saws should be taken away from them until they can clean house. The Arrowhead Hotshot Crew Boss should never be allowed to oversee critical fire line operations again where people’s lives are at risk because with great authority…comes great responsibility and accountability.
It is not possible to work with a chainsaw for any length of time without having some ‘scary moments’. It is a POWERFUL, nasty, noisy, diabolical piece of machinery. Even just one good slip with the file while sharpening the thing can fuck you up real good.
And likewise… dropping trees with it is ( as you have said ) always more of an art than a science. ANY tree taller than you are could potentially kill/injure you once you pull-rope on it and go to work.
So yea… it’s dangerous work. Always has been. Always will be.
But if this new SAIT report isn’t a reason for a full REALITY CHECK as to the ACTUAL ‘qualifications’ and ‘experience’ among these Type 1 IHC ‘sawyers’… I don’t know what would be.
There are over 100 Type 1 IHC Hotshot crews.
They are ‘required’ to have 4 ‘fully qualified’ sawyers on each crew.
That’s 400 guys/gals out there running around supposedly experienced enough to cut any tree they are asked to cut without killing themselves or others.
Time to make SURE that is the case.
If not NOW… when?
That Arrowhead Hotshot cutter was the LEAD SAWYER for that crew.
Supposedly the BEST one out of the 4 they are required to carry.
What more evidence could possibly be needed than those photographs in the SAI report that it’s highly likely these Type 1 IHC crews are ‘faking it’… and their sawyers are nowhere near as qualified as they are SUPPOSED to be?
I think they need to do a military style “stand down” until they can get every sawyer on every crew properly trained by highly qualified fallers and stop using the hodgepodge, hit or miss OJT I think they still use today. That was a really bad situation and the SAIT glossed right over most, if not all of the very serious issues.
And then everyone needs to go to a Bark Beetle killed forest and do nothing but cut nasty and dead,y snags down for about three weeks after one week of intensive training by highly qualified fallers.
Finally, they need to make fully qualified sawyers equal to squad bosses at the GS-7 level to help fix the retention problem to encourage hotshots to give it more than 3 years on their way to being the foreman of a Model 71 Engine, or whatever they are called today.
Oh…and one more thing. Every hotshot crew needs to start packing at least one bar that is around 50” inches plus and at least one saw that can handle it and like WTKTT wrote…quit fuckin’ around.
Seems like an EASY rule to put in place.
If a tree is wider than your chainsaw bar(s)… then…
“Homie Don’t Play That.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YxYvzVxJtYM
And just to be clear…I did have some scary situations and teaching moments while working as a faller on wildfires because anybody who isn’t scared and continually learning while dropping nasty and deadly snags, especially under challenging environmental and chaotic conditions is a dead man walking, but I didn’t have any close calls to speak of.
I can’t honestly explain or justify what the Arrowhead Hotshots did on the Ferguson Fire and no one else should either. They should fix it instead and not by making tepid recommendations and merely mealy mouthing oversimplistic platitudes while reemphasizing the basic principles of operating chainsaws in challenging environments and chaotic conditions because that is a recipe for more deaths and serious injuries. That entire falling operation was an unmitigated and completely unacceptable disaster…end of story.
Sonny asked, .” I suppose the wild land fighter only falls trees and does not have to buck them?”
My reply, One thing that sets hotshot crews apart from other hand crews is that they come equipped with power saws, whereas other crews don’t have that capability. Power saws are also used by engine crews, helitsck crews, smokejumpers and other regular employees who have the appropriate level of training and corresponding Red Card Certification.
So…yes, FIRE sawyers almost always have to limb and buck up the snags and trees they cut down into manageable rounds or sections that can easily be moved and rolled over to both get at hot spots in or on the snag or tree itself and so the downed material doesn’t lay on hot spots that will ignite in a few days or a few weeks and result in a “re burn.”
This is especially true if the snag or tree is near the control line because the closer eventual re burn is to the fire line, the more likely it will be to cause an entirely new wild fire to take off. It is also important to move the sections of downed snags and trees to well within the control line so as not to have a build up of fuel near the fire line. If nothing is on fire or hot, the downed tree or snag could be moved to outside of the fire line but the same rules apply.
In general, they first go for containment with a control line all of the way around the fire although in some circumstances, risk takers may accept just a cold trailed black line if for example, it is late in the fall and snow is on the way. After the fire is contained, they usually start by having crews, including hotshot crew mop up five chains (one chain equals 66 feet) in from the fire line for example.
Hotshot crews are always gone by the time they move beyond five chains or start 100% mop up. SWFF crews or other “casual crews or pick crews” will do that job for weeks or even months to make sure the fire is dead out and won’t result in a re burn. This is because the only thing the U.S. Forest Service hates more than change…are re burns. I think on fire that are really big, they may not insist on 100% mop up. The point is, almost all trees and snag have to be limbed and bucked up into manageable sections even if they are dropped well within the fire line.
Like I wrote below, I have only seen professional fallers on two or maybe three fires from a distance, but I don’t think they limb or buck anything up because they have hundreds or even thousands of snags that need to be felled and they come through individual areas working pretty fast to move on to the next section…I think?
It sounds like from what the Woodsman wrote down below, there are Faller Modules now that might be a hybrid of what I think of as two person teams of professional fallers who are loggers and are working on contract as pick up labor and those who may be regular agency (from any agency) employees who just happen to be highly skilled fallers because of their regular jobs or because they have so many years on the job and have acquired that particular skill set along the way. But…I would imagine that Faller Modules are still made up of professupional fallers that are loggers if there are any available?
But it’s like we both commented on down below…the Spotted Owls have destroyed loggers habitat for the most part and put that species on the Threatened & Endangered list and in some areas have resulted in their actual extinction as a viable species that can reproduce.
I think of FIRE personnel, including trained hotshots, as “sawyers” who can also fall trees and snags. But I think of “fallers” as highly trained and skilled technicians who only fall trees and snags that are either hazardous to personnel or the fire line, but I don’t think they limb or buck up what they fall? But…I suppose it depends on the Operations Plan and I imagine they will do whatever is asked of them?
I can tell you however, that the few fallers I have seen who are actual loggers are easy to spot because they are colorful characters. They are always wearing round brim aluminum hard hats that are beat up and dented like no others I have ever seen, they are always wearing suspenders that are either brightly colored or emblazoned with the name of their brand of chain saw that button (not clip on) to their pants that have been shortened with a dull knife to ride above their caulked boots so as not to hang them up or trip them while they scale logs or fight their way through waist deep slash. And they always unshaven with several days of beard if not full beards and most of all…they look like they are no bullshit men among men who never wear gloves and don’t eat quiche. And like you…I used to be a Husky 🇸🇪 man myself out of ethnic pride, but I think if I bought a new chain saw today, I would get a Stihl 🇩🇪. Although just FYI…they don’t have a West Germany any more…it’s all just Germany. 🙂
Oh…and one more thing. They carry their saw gas and bar oil in beat up and very dirty plastic containers that are attached to each other with a short length of rope that one of them carry’s hanging off a fallers axe over his shoulder while the other one has a chain saw with a huge bar that is somewhere around 50” slung over his shoulder and they have pockets full of well used wedges. Oh…and they have a certain swagger while they stride past lesser men and women folk.
Gary,
Please excuse my anger & frustration. When I see an official report of a tree strike fatality with stump photos like that, I go through stages of grieving…but I usually skip denial, I hope. Firstly though I get just get upset that it happened. I kind of remain in the pissed off stage forever…which make my recent decision not to participate in this bullshit anymore seem like a good one.
You make very good points. Hotshots usually don’t stay in the business long enough ( most anyway ) to get the numbers of trees and situations under their belt to become experienced fallers. Although we probably have some damn good ones, they need to be on every crew.
The VIPR contracted falling modules make sense because of the endangered species, commonly known as the Loggers of the PNW, have a very specialized skill set that may be utilized for dangerous snag mitigation. I believe in using the best tool available for safe and efficient firefighting.
I reviewed the latest USFS VIPR contracts and much to my disappointment, Faller Modules are not included & havent been included since 2017? I hope I’m wrong about that because I have had many work under me and always gave good reviews of them on evaluations. I also used to put something in there about their extreme value at increasing safety of operations, that I hoped the higher ups that solicit these contracts would see and increase their use. The last Faller Mod of reconstituted western loggers I had was an amazing duo from the great state of Montana, which were on my division on the Lolo, and I happened to start my assignment with the day after the Lolo Peak fatality. But what the fuck do i know? Nobody really listens to me anyway. Im not right about everything but I’m right about some things and I find it near impossible to be heard by management and taken seriously to make meaningful changes. I know my rough presentation skills have never helped but I’ve tried to change that as ive gotten older. They still don’t want to listen to me so I’ve exited the game. (much to the chagrin of my bank account) Only changes that come down from the top are deemed important.
Check for yourself. They seem to not want them helping anymore, which is a huge mistake! Probably trying to save $ while effectively exposing less experienced sawyers to higher risk. facepalm….100% facepalm…
https://www.fs.fed.us/business/incident/vipr.php?tab=tab_d
I’m going fishing.
You never have to apologize to me for caring as much as you do for WLF safety. All of us are tired of reading about so many being killed and seriously hurt on a job that is mostly dangerous because our can do gung ho attitudes and piss poor training make it so.
You know that if you would have been there, you would have made that nasty and deadly bitch (non gender specific) of a snag act very sweet,y and fall so nicely to the ground where it belonged. Now we need to know where the training failed those who were there.
In the case of Captain Hughes, he died because he followed his training to the end. And his training conditioned him to select the best escape route and then follow it when the snag came down.
I can say with some authority that there was insufficient effort put into his training that gave equal time to the fact he should have been alert to the fact that plans often abruptly change.
He should have also been on the sawyers back standing right next to him because that way, he would have seen the same thing the sawyers saw and knew to change his preplaneed escape route.
As a Faller gets ever so closer to removing the last bit of holding wood, his senses are highly tuned to the slightest and almost imperceptible movement of the trunk by staring intently without any distraction at the backcut which will tell him which way that tree is going. and that it is time to shut down the saw, step back as the bar is removed and then Mack a quick withdrawal (no running, quick fluid motions only) in the opposite direction the backcut opened up ever so slightly in one fluid motion as the team withdrawns together as one in the correct direction.
Sometimes the movement is so slight, you have to follow that procedure all over again, or just slip in another wedge and give it a tap.
The spotter is looking for widowmakers, the sawyer is watching the backcut and so they have both danger areas with eyes on it. I can see inadequate training all over that unnecessary death.
The NWCG is responsible for training Captain Hughes to die and he made a simple mistake and it doing so, he didn’t let them down. He gave them exactly what they trained him to do.
And you know what else? if he hadn’t been trained as a sawyer or sawyer/spotter, WTKTT is 100% correct, he never should have been anywhere near that operation. I need to know more about the circumstances of his death and his training because as a spotter he was too far away, as a supervisor, he was too close. Which was he?
STEP ONE (1) FOR EVERY INVESTIGATION – PULL THE FUCKING TRAINING RECORDS, I WANT TO REVIEW THEM AND THEN I WILL TELL YOU WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE DEATH OF CAPTAIN HUGHES. IN COURT
In other words, the botched tree falling Operation didn’t kill Captain Hughes. That snag was going to come down…MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
Captain Hughes running the wrong way when it finally dud come down is what killed him. WHY did he run the wrong way. I need to know a lot more. The report isn’t a COVER UP…but it is woefully INCOMPLETE..
Oh…I want to see all of the sawyers records as well…and then I want to see their training plans, and the syllabus and actual training manual of every course related to what happened.
Do you know why the training staff at FLETC is so anal retentive and so highly structured?
It’s because unlike the backwards WLF Industrial Compkex, they have been dealing with private investigators and have had sharp lawyers crawling up theur asses for decades looking for anything they can find to bring them and their trainees down.
The WLF Industrial Compkex are like little children lost in the woods and they don’t know what to do, or which way to goon order to find their mommy’s. So they keep killing their firefighters because they never face any accountability.
Yesterday I was grieving as a hotshot, today I’m thinking as an investigator.
In the moments right before his death, Captain Hughes was under extreme stress.
What do people do when they are under extreme stress?
They automatically and involuntarily follow their training.
Once again…neither the botched falling procedure nor the snag was responsible for Captain Hughes death.
The snag couldn’t think and therefore make a plan to kill. The snag had to follow all of the laws of nature and so everything it did and when it did it was 100% predictable.
Why wasn’t what the snag was about to do correctly predicted by Captain Hughes?
Why weren’t the faller and spotter together, going in the same direction at the same time?
And once again, who was the spotter?
And if Captain Hughes wasn’t the spotter, why was he so close? If he was the spotter, why was he so far from the sawyer?
The report does say that Hughes joined the hotshot crew without any hotshot experience. Where did Hughes get either his sawyer or faller training and experience?
The brief work history for Hughes does not give any indication he ever had any experience with falling trees. The Los Padres does not have timber, working on a Monterey Hand Crew would not in itself, provide any experience as either a sawyer or faller.
There is nothing in his experience that is listed in Hawaii that would indicate he had any experience as a sawyer or faller.
The report says Hughes worked for the BLM Alaska Fire Service. The BLM AFS manages only the interior of Alaska, which is most of the state, but almost all of the land they manage is artic tundra where all of the trees are very small because they are stunted from the extreme cold. I spent 30 days on a fire detail to the AFS as my last USFS assignment and I flew over every region of the interior in a bush plane….over every area and I never saw one fucking tree you could call timber.
The only timber in Alaska is in Southeast Alaska on the Tongass NATIONAL FOREST.
Why…why….why…oh why…was Hughes already 20 feet BELOW that nasty and deadly bitch when it started to fall. That snag was going to go one of two ways, upslope like it was wedged, but much more likely downslope like it was cut and the gravity of Mother Earth wanted to take it.
If Hughes is as not going to be right over the shoulder of the sawyer, he should have been 20 feet sideslope to the snag.
I smell a BIG FUCKING DECAYING RAT 🐀 in this report and now I’m as mad as the Woodsman, but…I DON’T FISH!
I too pissed off to go look right now, but I was want to know what Hughes Red Card Qualifications we’re along with everyone else who was involved.
The report says the sawyer in question was their lead sawyer, I want to know everything about him…everything. I want to know if he was drug tested after the accident. I want to know if Hughes was drug tested after the accident, I want to know many things that I will never find out.
I want to see all of the investigators interview notes and or recordings. I want to re interview everyone who was there that day prior to the accident. I want to see all audio or video recordings of the incident.
I want to know everything that happened and the report is completely and totally insufficient to meet any acceptable standard and is pathetic.
Correction.
I should have said the LP doesn’t have any timber to speak of and they sure don’t around Monterey.
And that’s probably beside the point because he was on a low level hand crew, not a hotshot crew. I just need to see Hughes’ training and fire assignment records.
For example, when I was the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss, as a national resource and the forest hotshot crew, there were lots of people who could tell me what they thought I should do, but the only man who could order me to do anything was the man who hired me and the only man who could fire me and the man who authorized me to be paid and did my employee apparaisals and who could promote or demote me or give me an award, and that was the Tesuque that then became the Espanola Ranger District Fire Management Officer, Orlando Romero. It’s probably the same with them?
Reply to Gary Olson post on
May 13, 2019 at 2:21 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Why weren’t the faller and spotter together,
>> going in the same direction at the same time?
Even with ALL of the photos and diagrams included in the report… something is curiously ‘missing’.
There are NO DRAWINGS, or annotated photos, showing the actual PATHS that either of these men either PLANNED to take… or actually did take when the tree started falling.
Their movements are DESCRIBED in the narrative… but not ILLUSTRATED with any ‘dashed lines’ or anything on any of the site photos.
Very odd… since ( as you have pointed out )… that really WAS the reason Hughes died that day.
And you are right… as badly as the cut-job went… it was still MISSION ACCOMPLISHED. It got to the ground and the guy who was cutting it didn’t die.
The report says that just before ‘pucker time’… Hughes WAS still at the base of the tree and had just handed the faller’s axe back to the cutter. THAT is when the faller told Hughes he better get (quote) “out of the cutting area” and only then Hughes (quote ) “walked approximately 20 feet down their primary escape route”.”
But again… absolutely no indication on any drawing or photo what this actually meant, or where Hughes actually WAS ( in relation to the tree and the cutter ) when the thing POPPED.
If Hughes was just playing “Sam Spectator” at that point… he should have totally CLEARED OUT and at least gone up to where the other ‘spotter’ was. That didn’t even look like the safest of places to be, either… but if Hughes had at least gone over THERE… he would have lived.
Incomplete report. Incomplete diagrams. Why?
Yes, like Sonny said, both you and the Woodsman were right, this whole deal stinks. I just needed a couple of days to clear my head. Everything is wrong with that report. I just don’t know what we or anyone else can do about it. Bitch about it here I guess?
Both you and the Woodsman were correct with all of the technical analysis of the sawyers cuts. But…as I have written, I made a lot of mistakes while I was OTJ training myself and a few after I learned how to be an average faller by hotshot standards, not by professional faller standards.
And yes, I had some trees go the opposite way I intended them to go, but I never had what I would call a close call to anything getting hurt except my ego because like I already wrote, the sawyer can see what is happening before anyone else can because the tree makes it’s intent known with barely perceptible movement at the backcut and then you know which way to go and you take your spotter with you because he has been staring up watching for widowmakers.
No one has to run, everything happens in slow motion at first assuming you aren’t dealing with a violent barber chair kick back and we aren’t talking about one of those which are very rare and I never even experienced one.
The tree just starts to move in slow motion and then slowly starts to pick up speed, but by that time, you have cut off the saw, withdrawn the bar, spun around and both you and your spotter are safely leaving the kill zone together which is almost always at is at approximately 22o degrees assuming the direction of fall is at 0 degrees.
And just like withdrawing your gun from your holster, “Smooth Is Fast.”
If you go to this page,
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved2.html
there are five examples of me falling a free. Ignore the one where I am 19 in the USFS uniform cutting down the Ponderosa with the huge lightning scar because that is meant to show how to do everything wrong. No training, no chaps, no gloves, no earplugs, no eye protection, no spotter, no common sense.
But, the other four show how it should be done and the relationship between the faller and the spotter. You work as a team by touching each other because the noise level is to high and you are wearing ear protection.
In one you can see the back cut starting to open up, I have already cut off the saw with the simple toggle switch, the spotter just existed the photo, I have withdraw the bar and I am starting to spin around to follow my spotter.
Captain Hughes should not have been killed no matter how wrong the cuts were, like I said, it wasn’t pretty, but it was mission accomplished, the tree went down.
Without the ability to investigate this incident, I will go out on a limb (pun intended) and say it’s going to trace back to either no training or very bad and incomplete training for Captain Hughes and the lack of authority on the part of the sawyer to order Hughes to follow SOP.
But…I would still like to study all of the paperwork and media I previously mentioned, and interview everyone I want to. And then I will tell you exactly what happened which the SAIT didn’t do with their grossly incompetent SAIR.
And FYI, none of the photos of me falling trees or snags were taken with my knowledge or any thought they would ever be used to show anybody anything. They are all random photos our crew photographer took thousands of them each year of everything and still managed to do the work of one and a half hardworking hotshots because he was a very hard worker, incredibly smart and an organizational genius.
And he wasn’t really our crew photographer, but he was a guy on our crew who took a lot of photos and then gave us a chance to buy copies from him for cost at an end of the fire season slide show of our entire season.
I think I mentioned this before, but he sold a lot of photos to magazines including the Sierra Club. His specialty was being wayyyy in the backcountry at the Grand Canyon and a couple of us went with him one year and several of us hiked the Canyon every year with our fire boots on and heavy packs to start getting into shape.
Anyway, everything about the location of Captain Hughes and his movements was very wrong.
Actually…now that I look at those photos closely, I’m the spotter in the last one where I am shielding my eyes from the sun with my hard hat while staring up.
And just FYI, the photo with the flames filling the frame was taken through the window from my seat WHILE SITTING INSIDE OUR BUS!
I think our crew boss parked just a little to close on that one.
😮
It’s the photo right below the examples of pointless work in the middle of the forest to keep us busy.
Oh…and the photo right below me standing beside of the Twin Otter plane was from my first fire as a Squad Boss called the Huffer Fire on our home district.
The crew had been fragmented because it was blowing out in every direction and my squad and I found ourselves at the bottom of a deep V surrounded on three sides by fire with the front of the V starting to close in.
One of our Model 20 Engines was in there with us full of laughing Hopi Indians who just roared away leaving us in their dust so we had to run for it.
And as we were running to save our lives. I stopped, pulled out my camera, spun around and yelled for everybody to pose for a photo.
The sawyer was lugging the chain saw and bringing up the rear so you can see him in blurred motion because he didn’t have time to stop. Check out how much fun everyone seems to be having.
That is what is wrong with young wild land firefighters, their brains haven’t fully developed yet. I had just turned 22.
It’s all fun and games until someone loses an 👁
If you look at the photo closely, you can see all of the 2” hose that engine crew had just disconnected and left as they hauled asss out of there…sorry fuckers!
2” hose isn’t right. It was a big trunk line…whatever size that is? I didn’t really pay much attention to what engines had or did.
Oh…and one more thing. IF that was SOP for the Arrowhead Hotshots, the NPS needs to get their heads out of their asses and fix that crew STAT!
And yeah…for the primary sawyer to do a job that bad….the NPS needs to recycle him back through sawyer and faller training because…Damn!
Correction for a post above.
I said…
>> …no indication on any drawing or
>> photo what this actually meant,
>> or where Hughes actually WAS
>> ( in relation to the tree and the
>> cutter ) when the thing POPPED.
That appears to be incorrect.
In both Figures 6 and 16, in the report, there is actually a WHITE DOT that appears to indicate where Hughes ‘retreated’ to after the cutter told him to (quote) “get out of the cutting area”..
That WHITE DOT does appear to be about 20 feet downhill from the base of the tree.
But still NO indication ( with a dashed or colored line or something ) what the EXACT ‘planned escape route’ was, or the movements that both men ACTUALLY made in those final moments… which ended up being the difference between life ( for one ) and death ( for the other ).
Reply to Gary Olson post
on May 13, 2019 at 7:34 pm
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> Oh…and one more thing.
>> IF that was SOP for the
>> Arrowhead Hotshots, the
>> NPS needs to get their
>> heads out of their asses
>> and fix that crew STAT!
>>
>> And yeah…for the primary
>> sawyer to do a job that bad….
>> the NPS needs to recycle
>> him back through sawyer
>> and faller training
>> because…Damn!
I would change NPS to NWCG, and urge the following ‘station-wide memo’…
Regardless of experience… NO double-cutting. Not ever. Zero. Zip. Nada. Period. Full stop.
If YOU don’t have the “right tool” to do the “right job”… turn to professionals. THEY do..
I know what you are trying to say, but FYI…the NWCG is just an “advisory” body and doesn’t have any authority over anything as the NWCG.
The people who have 100% control over the Arrowhead Hotshots is the NPS and most likely THE man who is the point, will most likely be the NPS Fire Management Officer for the Sequoia Kings Canyon National Park which is their home unit.
https://www.nps.gov/seki/index.htm
http://www.arrowheadhotshots.org/
Damn…this was at least their SECOND death from a tree strike.
http://www.arrowheadhotshots.org/dan.html
Wrong Place
For example, when I was the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss, as a national resource and the forest hotshot crew, there were lots of people who could tell me what they thought I should do, but the only man who could order me to do anything was the man who hired me and the only man who could fire me and the man who authorized me to be paid and did my employee apparaisals and who could promote or demote me or give me an award, and that was the Tesuque that then became the Espanola Ranger District Fire Management Officer, Orlando Romero. It’s probably the same with them?
But yes…I suppose if they wanted to make that a nationwide policy for every wild land firefighting agency the NWCG could make that recommendation and then each agency would decide if they want to opt in or opt out of it and then that decision would be passed down each participating agencies chain of command with a policy directive. That would take oh…about 20 years, because first they will appoint committees and sb committees to study the issue and make recommendations.
But…the person who could change the Arrowhead Hotshots SOP’s tomorrow morning is the Superintendent of the crew itself or his direct supervisor.
The crew boss is empowered to say, “Homie Don’t Play That.”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YxYvzVxJtYM
**
** FINAL REPORT RELEASED REGARDING THE DEATH OF ARROWHEAD
** HOTSHOT CAPTAIN BRIAN HUGHES AT THE 2018 FERGUSON FIRE.
It has taken 9 months and 8 days… but the final “Serious Accident Investigation Report” regarding the death of Arrowhead Hotshot Captain Brian Hughes at the 2018 Ferguson Fire has finally been ‘published’ on the WFLLC website…
Wildland Fire Lessons Learned Center ( WFLLC )
Established 2002. Hosted by the U.S. National Park Service ( NPS )
Our Motto: “A lesson is learned when we change our behavior”
Ferguson Fire Tree Strike Fatality ( 2018 )
https://www.wildfirelessons.net/orphans/viewincident?DocumentKey=0e62740f-f5f4-4539-a422-24e42961871b
New documents available on this WFLLC page as of May 7, 2019…
———————————————————————————————-
Factual Report Brian Hughes Serious Accident Investigation.pdf
Size: 2.37MB
Uploaded: 05-07-2019
corrective-action-plan-hughes-fatality.pdf
Size: 95K
Uploaded: 05-07-2019
————————————————————————————————–
It’s as bad as it can be.
Total screw-up.
The absolute poster-child for “How to kill yourself or others while cutting down a tree”.
The report really doesn’t pull any punches… and includes things like…
1. Tree lean was improperly ‘sized up’ ( and not by a little. TOTALLY wrong size-up ).
2. The cutter totally botched the backcut, and one side came out two inches BELOW the undercut, which essentially reverses the roles of the two cuts, even if you DID ‘size it up’ properly.
3. Even with the backcut now totally botched… the cutter started bore-cutting away at the holding wood from the undercut side of the tree.
4. KABOOM… it popped… total confusion… Hughes tries to run original escape route and is crushed.
There actually was no reason for Hughes to have even been near the thing.
As it turns out… he was NOT the ‘cutter’.
At the time the accident took place… he was just standing there watching the other guy, and ran the wrong way.
So it is no mystery at all why someone died there. Total botch job.
The only mystery is why it took so long for this report to come out.
It is complete, and it is detailed, but there is nothing in there that comes close to justifying it taking 9 MONTHS to be released.
It’s perfectly clear what happened… and this could have been out in a very short amount of time to help save lives.
It’s so clear how WRONG this all went that It SHOULD have been fast-tracked, for safety’s sak
SIDENOTE: The SAI report itself details its own timeline, and it says they were ‘done’ with the report on December 10 of last year ( 2018 )… and the ‘final factual report’ was delivered to NPS Fire and Aviation Division Chief Bill Kaage that same day. So it appears it was Bill Kaage who then decided to “sit on it” and NOT publish it for another FIVE MONTHS. That’s longer than it took to DO the full report in the first place.
The report doesn’t pull any punches on their ‘Findings’ and ‘Recommendations’, either.
It basically says that the NWCG is NOT providing adequate training ( industry wide ) for these people to be doing what they are attempting to do ‘out there’…
From PDF page 29, in the ‘Findings’ section…
—————————————————————————————————–
Finding 6:
The National Wildfire Coordinating Group (NWCG) training curriculum lacks formal training for advanced fallers.
NWCG S-212 (Wildland Fire Chain Saws) is the only course for chainsaw operators.
No training pathway exists for advanced fallers (e.g. 300/400 series courses) to address and learn skills for complex hazards and techniques.
—————————————————————————————————
Typo in last post…
Sentence above should have read like this…
“It’s so clear how WRONG this all went that It SHOULD have been fast-tracked, for safety’s sake.”
Rest in peace, Brian Hughes.
I agree with most of what you said, WTKTT but it’s common safety practice to have another ground man with the faller on a particularly hazardous tree to keep eyes on the tree bole while the faller is working on the cuts. I’ve said it before: you can’t beat a man at his own game. What is required for maximum safety with trees like this that need to come down is the utilization of experienced western faller modules. These guys (and gals, I guess, I’ve just never ran into one) know their shit. I trust them more than any other human on the planet for falling technical western timber. I’m suspicious of the size of this tree and how it may have influenced the desire to cut it by the shot crew. 57 incher is nothing to sneeze at…it’s a hoss! It’s a shame the investigation team didn’t make this recommendation. If you design and implement an advanced powersaw course, please, please, please hire actual born and bred western fallers as instructors!!!!
I read the report. The one picture of the stump I really needed to take a close look at was the very one the investigators chose to cover up by placing the face cut “wedge” back into position. Thanks, guys! (sarc) I more of a fan of the humbolt face cut btw.
Here’s a similar size tree thrown by an experienced western faller. Pay attention to the relationship of the backcut to the intersection of the face. Bonus points if you can figure out why he’s set his fallers ax in the kerf of the backcut. HInt: He’s paying very close attention to it sitting there as he’s finishing the backcut. Why?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3wboFUKO5s
In this tragedy, the back cut was completely wrong and gutting the face of almost all of the holding wood was an extremely bad call.
I’ve had the good fortune to work with many absolutely top-notch western faller mods, one of whom had been a faller for 50 years in the great Pacific NW. Anyone with any kind of experience in the business knows exactly who I’m talking about. Some of these fine folks have made rounds with direct instruction to some IHC’s in timber falling. What should happen is this needs to BE A REQUIREMENT for all IHC’s every year. I’d say 40 hours of instruction per year would be a good start.These guys are 100% gold at what they do.
Sometimes the trees just need to be cut by professional faller mods. You can’t beat a man at his own game, as I’ve said before.
My condolences to Arrowhead as I’m sure they were are watching their guy throw the big one at the time. RIP, Capt. Hughes.
Reply to Woodsman post on May 10, 2019 at 12:37 pm
>> Woodsman said…
>>
>> I agree with most of what you said, WTKTT but it’s common
>> safety practice to have another ground man with the faller
>> on a particularly hazardous tree to keep eyes on the tree
>> bole while the faller is working on the cuts.
Yes… but once that faller KNEW things had gone south, and he WARNED Hughes that he better ‘step away’ ( according to the report )… Hughes was ‘no good’ to him anymore. But Hughes only went 20 feet away. What was Hughes going to do from 20 feet away? Start waving his arms trying to get the guy’s attention WHILE he is ‘head down’ and cutting away?
And so much for ‘sighting the bole’. The reason Hughes died is because he simply didn’t know WHAT was actually happening… WHEN it started happening. He was totally confused and totally ran the wrong way.
Nah… once they lost control of that cut-job… and they decided to go ahead anyway…. the only person near that thing should have been the guy who was going to drop it.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I read the report. The one picture of the stump I really
>> needed to take a close look at was the very one the
>> investigators chose to cover up by placing the face
>> cut “wedge” back into position. Thanks, guys! (sarc)
There should have been TWO photos from that angle.
One WITH the wedge back in place… and one WITHOUT the wedge.
By just showing the wedge back in place… it masks how badly that back cut came out and how far it actually came in UNDERNEATH the face-cut.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Here’s a similar size tree thrown by an experienced western faller.
>> Pay attention to the relationship of the backcut to the intersection
>> of the face.
Also notice how CAREFUL he was to make sure that back cut was on the right ‘plane’… on BOTH sides. He did a walk-cut at first, to MARK the plane on the tree… but still kept checking to make damn sure it was coming out right.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Bonus points if you can figure out why he’s set his fallers ax
>> in the kerf of the backcut. HInt: He’s paying very close
>> attention to it sitting there as he’s finishing the backcut. Why?
Two reasons.
1. Sit-back indicator.( if it ‘wiggles up’ )
OR
2. “Time to Go” indicator ( when it falls out ).
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> Sometimes the trees just need to be cut by professional faller mods.
Yep.
Especially when the cuts go south.
They should have ‘walked away’ and contracted some actual professionals.
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> My condolences to Arrowhead as I’m sure they were are watching
>> their guy throw the big one at the time. RIP, Capt. Hughes.
The report gives no indication there was any VIDEO of the incident… but in this day and age and with all these kids out there filming EVERYTHING…. all the time…. it still would not surprise me to learn that someone on the crew WAS ‘filming’ this as-it-happened..
Followup…
>> Woodsman also said…
>>
>> I read the report. The one picture of the stump I really
>> needed to take a close look at was the very one the
>> investigators chose to cover up by placing the face
>> cut “wedge” back into position. Thanks, guys! (sarc)
Actually… even in that one photo in the report with the wedge put back onto the stump… if you ZOOM in ( keep hitting the ‘+’ sign in the Adobe PDF viewer )… you CAN see the original line of the under cut, and then how far the back cut came out BELOW that.
He missed it by a country mile.
It basically REVERSED the roles of the ‘cuts’ and turned the back cut into the under cut… but they kept wedging it like it was gonna fall in the original ‘planned’ direction. It did not.
I’ll quote myself:
“In this tragedy, the back cut was completely wrong and gutting the face of almost all of the holding wood was an extremely bad call.”
Since you didnt.
Been there, done that. And there are few things more terrifying. And if those men could have walked away and left that snag to fall down on its own, they never would have been hotshots in the first place. And besides that, no one better was available to call. The one criticism I will say based on how many misjudged cuts and potentially deadly mistakes I made, is that it is almost always very difficult to get a tree to fall uphill, especially on a slope that steep. Once things go sideways like that, it’s almost impossible to recover and regain control of the situation because there are so many factors and variables in play. At that point, the tree is in charge and it will do what it’s going to do while you just hope for the best because there isn’t any forgiveness with bad cuts because they can’t be changed and the hole just keep getting deeper and deeper until chaos brings the tree down and all bets are off. I was so happy to quit being a sawyer when I got bumped up the chain. Being a hotshot sawyer is not only extremely physically demanding, it a very dangerous job and the training for advanced falling is non existent. All advanced training comes one nasty and deadly snag after another on the job and it is all self taught by making mistakes that you try to never make again while you make new ones.
Although I did volunteer and ask for the job, all hotshot sawyers step up and ask for that responsibility. It’s not the kind of job anyone can be ordered to do, you have to have what it takes to be one already inside you,
If anyone has ever taken the time to familiarize themselves with what I did for a living after I left fire, I can assure you ONE (1) thing. Being a hotshot sawyer is the hardest and most dangerous job I ever did in my life and I have some terrifying memories I will never forget.
I got sick to my stomach with butterflies of fear while reading that incident report and I had to start and stop several times to finally get through it.
So…I guess what I am saying, is please have some extra understanding and compassion for Brian Hughes and the other two men who were there. The sawyer. spotter and many others who were there that day are damaged beyond repair for life.
D Douglas Dent
Woodsman…I am pretty dopey…got bit by a dog to the bone but that’s my guess…
The only thing that I can think of that would have made their situation worse would have been if that tree would have sat back and pinched their bar in spite of their best efforts.
They they would have had to disaaemble their saw to get most of it out of the way, or wait for it to go down the hill and maybe destroyed when the tree finally went after they brought in a second saw to keep trying things until that killer went down one way or the other.
There are just so many variables, many of which can’t be seen or calculated in to the equation. Expert fallers are great to call in when they are there, but they usually aren’t there. And do you know what the most dangerous job there is;
https://www.themarlincompany.com/blog-articles/dangerous-jobs-2019/
1. LOGGING WORKERS
The occupation with the highest fatality rate is logging workers, with 135.9 fatal work injuries per 100,000 workers, which equates to 91 total fatalities over the course of a year. This makes logging the most hazardous job of 2019. Not only is the job physically challenging, it involves heavy-duty chainsaws and falling trees, putting the workers at a huge risk each day.
and that is because PROFESSIONAL fallers make deadly mistakes on a regular basis and run into killer trees they can’t bring down like they intended to. It’s just one damn dangerous and terrifying job all things considered.
I also think the reason Hughes was there was because he was doing his job of supervision while offering support, encouragement, advice and help by generally replacing the spotter for what was to be a difficult and very challenging procedure.
In addition, I have generally made my opinions regarding the failure of the WLF world in general and the NWCG in particular to properly train your WLF. But at the end of the day, it is our collective failure to force our politicians to provide adequate training dollars to those agencies and as I have repeatedly written, and training is always the first thing to be cut out of every budget.
In the case of hotshot sawyers, I think you also have a collision of every other problem that besets WLF, especially retention, but also low pay, difficult and dangerous working conditions and a high turnover rate. I’m pretty sure I’m not the only one who was more than happy to both do that job and to stop doing that job.
I also don’t know that additional training will fix all of the problems with having adequately trained hotshot sawyers because beyond the technical aspects of the job, which is sounds like the Woodsman is very familiar with (maybe hence his name), the job itself is as much of an art as it is a science.
This is because every tree and snag, and everything in between especially after it has been weakened by fire, sometimes in ways that can’t be seen and therefore calculated in the process, is different in countless ways and therefore will react different.
Sometimes the damn things just wont fall down like they are supposed to even after you have done everything right and I will readily admit, in this particular case, it sounds like they managed to do everything wrong.
And beyond the basics, which they probably had, competency comes only with experience one tree or snag and one cut at a time. I think professupional fallers back in the day had years of day after day experience and tens of thousands of fallen trees to their credit to become what we think of as the men of legend.
And I will say once again, when it comes to the mythological professional fallers on fires. I have heard that they exist, but I only briefly caught glimpses of men drifting through the trees in the distance who were reported to be them on two or maybe three fires in 10 years and there and they were like cops, they were never around when you really needed one. And that was before the Spotted Owl destroyed their habitat and not only made them an endangered species, but in many areas, an extinct one.
All in all…I think all of the hotshot deaths from tree strikes just since we have been participating on this thread are all very sad. So sad in fact, I can’t even remember how many there were, although I do remember that young kid who was sitting to close to the action from the Lolo Hotshots, but I think there was at least one more?
Maybe even two more? I just don’t remember…how fuckin’ sad is that?
BUT…if Caption Hughes hadn’t run the wrong way, however many mistakes they made, it all would have just one more teaching moment that we never knew happened in the daily life of a hotshot sawyer. I had a lot of those that are obviously still with me imprinted into my memories and my nightmares.
Story Time
One year we were sent up to the most important Lookout Tower on our district during our annual fire prevention work to clean out all of the fire lines around facilities on our district called Baker Butte to cut down a bunch of big trees.
Baker Butte was so important because it sat right on the edge of the Mogollon Rim, the topographical and geographical feature that separates the Sonoran Desert from the Colorado Plateau and in our case, the men from the boys who worked on the lowland Payson Hotshots down below us. And I mean below us in every respect.
Anyway…that was my first season as a hotshot sawyer, I only had two of them, and as such was a great opportunity to get some falling time under my belt and get some serious notches on my faller’s axe.
The lookouts, which were an older couple who had worked as seasonal lookouts for many years up there, had decided a lot of trees had grown up tall enough to restrict their view down on the Tonto although I’m not sure what was important enough to want to look at down on the Tonto and the Payson Ranger District in particular, but you know my policy back in the day…”Sounds Good”, which was our equivalent of Aye, Aye Sir!
Anyway…Baker Butte was higher than most elevations on our district so it had a lot of tree species in addition to the most common tree on the Mighty Coconino, the Pinus ponderosa, which is also known as the western yellow pine, bull pine, black Jack pine, western red pine, Sierra brownbark pine, heavy pine, and western pitch pine, which included species such as the Douglas fir because of the higher elevation there. They got a lot of snow in the winter time and the north facing aspect of the slope had a lot of really big beautiful mature Douglas fir on it that just had to go.
So…my Assistsnt Crew Boss (Bill) who became the Santa Fe Hotshot Crew Boss after I moved on, was also my swamper while I was the Happy Jack Hotshot crew sawyer and then he became the crew sawyer after I moved up to Squad Boss. Which is the normal progression and the same thing I did for the other person I recently wrote about (Hardy) because I was his swamper and sawyer trainee.
So…because it was a very moist area down below Baker Butte, there was also very heavy green underbrush carpeting the entire slope that I think was mostly scrub oak, where we were working that was four feet or more high and very thick around every tree that was marked for death.
And a lot of this undergrowth had to be cut away so we could even get to the trunks of the trees we needed to fall. But because it was so thick, I didn’t spend a lot of time cutting it all out of the way, just enough so I could get to where I needed to in order to cut out the pie and then make my backcut.
Because all of these trees were big, and I mean REALLY big and healthy green trees, the falling wasn’t very technical, but it was still good experience. But working on that slope was still dangerous because it was so steep as it literally dropped off the Mogollon Rim as much as 2000 feet to what really wasn’t desert on the Payson Ranger District directly below us because they were in the transition zone from forest to true Sonoran desert,
And because it was so steep, when those huge trees went…I mean they really went as they were literally launched into the air in spite of the fact they weighed hundreds or maybe even thousands of tons. I don’t have any idea how much one of those trees weighed, but I know it was a lot.
But to finally get to the point of my entire story, I was working on bringing one monster in particular down and I had already finished my front cuts and I had a nice pie cut out of the front face. I then started on the back cut still waist deep in thick undergrowth except for right where I was cutting and I was well on my way to completely my back cut.
Finishing that cut would have effectively launched that huge Douglas fir airborne when Bill tapped on my shoulder over the roar of my chainsaw at full throttle and pointed to my right leg that was forward in my sawyers stance in order to support the weight of the saw. I paused and looked down to where he was pointing, but at first I could only see the thick undergrowth that was covering most of my leg up to my waist.
And then I saw it. A coil of barb wire was wrapped around my lower leg with one end free. The other end of the wire was deeply embedded into the trunk of the tree I had almost cut down that had grown up around it for decades. Some cowboy had stapled barb wire to the trunk of that tree when it was much smaller decades and decades and decades earlier to use it for a fence post while stringing to keep his cows from getting to close to the edge of the rim. That was commonly done back in yesterday year by cowboys who were just about the only ones out there.
I was probably one or two minutes at the most from having my leg amputated if I was lucky before I would have bled out before they could have ever have gotten me back up that steep slope as far down it as we were working. If I hadn’t been lucky, it would have amputated my leg as it took me with it on its airborne journey to its pfinal resting place far down below us.
I have a GREAT photo of Baker Butte I am going to go find in my library and post it. I think I might have a couple of them, one with me sitting at a picnic table doing a crewmember’s evaluation in later years. I mean…if you are going to pick an office to work out of…why not go down to Baker Butte and enjoy the view? Am I right?
Actually, you are in luck, because I found several good photos of Baker Butte and The Rim.
1. The original photo I was referring to, I mean…is this a classic U.S. Forest Service Lookout Tower or what?
2. Me sitting in just one of my offices doing a crew members evaluation at Baker Butte.
3. A photo I took of Baker Butte from our forest helicopter (that was stationed on our didtrict, a Hughes 500) on my way to a lightning fire on The Rim.
4. A photo of the crew taking a break while cleaning out the fire line around Baker Butte in the early spring before everything leafed out. But you can see how thick it would have been later on, especially downslope where it was much thicker with a lot more heavy shrubs.
5. A meaningful photo of me standing with a new crewman. He was an older guy from Texas who had just graduated with a degree in Forestry. He was a really a good hand, but he had a Texas sized attitude, a real wide streak of independence and a Texas size problem with authority, including mine. I thought I was going to have to separate him from the crew before we killed each other, but we had just cut some grueling practice hot line together and he dcided he could work for me after all. So…this was the photo that marked the start of our new relationship which never faltered after that day.
6. A photo that wasn’t actually taken from Baker Butte, but it is a great photo of the Payson Ranger District below The Rim.
7. A random photo I saw and wanted to post because our crew cameraman, who was also my Equipment Squad Boss (no squad, but he got whoever he wanted when it came time to handle our equipment, he was amazing with organization) took of a crewman while we slept dead tired during the day on a Tonto desert fire as our spike camp was burned over. You can see the flames behind him. Now…I mean how cool was that? That is what I call, “taking it in stride” since there weren’t any overhead around to tell us to pack up and move out of the way of the fire.
http://ourfiregods.com/reserved1.html
I will sum up the biggest problem for you as far as I’m concerned though.
Hotshot sawyers just aren’t conditioned to think or say, “OMGosh that bitch (non gender specific) looks to big and mean for me to be able to bring down…I had better sit this one out and call for some men to come and do my job!”
I mean…if hotshot sawyers were in the business to think or say, “I have ash in my pussy (non gender specific) and I just can’t manage this problem…please help me!”
Well then, if that were the case…they wouldn’t have been either hotshots or hotshot sawyers in the first place. Am I right?
“The Crazy Nastyass Honey Badger Don’t Care, Honey Badger Takes What It Wants!”
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=4r7wHMg5Yjg
In other words…that is how I was as a hotshot sawyer. There were lots of people who could do it better, but they weren’t there…I was. So those nasty and deadly bitches came down one way or the other.
I salute the Arrowhead Hotshot Sawyer, he or she was a honey badger, that fuckin’ nasty and deadly bitch finally came down.
It wasn’t pretty…but they got the job done. Rest In Peace Arrowhead Hotshot Captain Brian Hughes. You broke our hearts…again.
The tree was clearly outside the capabilities of the sawyer.
Either they were performing OTJ training for a less experienced hand or this was the best sawyer they had. You’re saying someone on that hotshot crew HAD to cut that tree or by definition they are not hotshots. I’ll just let that concept sink in for a while…before I head down this path to its logical conclusion.
I never claimed my thoughts on what it means to me to be a hotshot are logical. In fact, I think there has been substantial evidence presented by myself on this thread that clearly establish that most of my thoughts on are illogical, random and quite chaotic while I just throw things against the wall to see what sticks.
If you break down the entire hotshot concept down and isolate just those portions that are logical and make sense for your consideration, I’m afraid there wouldn’t be very much left. But…it’s all we got so I’m still going to go with it.
I mean…if you take away the hyper driven, amped up tip of the spear, Type IA best of the best premier light infantry force or as everyone else puts it, the Navy SEALS, Army Delta Force and Marine Raiders all rolled into one on steroids press releases and THOSE crews have to sit around waiting to be saved by contract fallers, what does the WLF industrial complex have going for it except for a bunch of Blue Shirted Round Hats with pencil whipped quals playing WLF from portal to portal? Am I right?
And besides that, didn’t that whole fiasco with the Lolo Hotshots start because somebody decided to make Faller Mods out of some kids who couldn’t find the ignition switch on a chain saw?
In other words, WLF strategy has always been to do the best we can with what we have and hope for the best possible outcome that has been based on ICS protocols ever since about….🤔 let’s see…1982?
I think the average hotshot does their best not to spend more than 3-5 years on a hotshot crew before doing everything they can to get a good job on one of those big engines everybody has these days. That just doesn’t leave a lot of time for highly trained and specialized hotshot sawyers or fallers.
But…that being said, if I would have waited to be saved by mythological professional fallers on my first fire as a hotshot sawyer, I’m afraid I would still be sitting there waiting for them to show?
There is ONE (1) thing the last six years have convinced me of however…the WLF Industrial Complex has a lot of room for improvement, especially in the areas of training and retention.
BUT…that takes money and funding is far more likely to significantly shrink in the foreseeable future rather than grow.
Ahhhh…fuck it, I don’t have any answers.
Plus, my current events info is like…almost 40 years old. So maybe teams of professional fallers are very common today on the fire line? I didn’t stop to think that possibility through.
Real fallers are available on federal contract to teams across the country. Like anything some are better than others but they are the resource of choice for technical falling. In this situation a real faller may have said “no way” to an uphill lay, and you are going to have to cut more line to contain the slop over.
Hotshots don’t need someone to do their job in falling? Fine. Get some goddamn training by real fucking fallers and not just other hotshots or the hotshot hubris is going to keep killing themselves. All I have to do is look at the stump pics to see these crews don’t know what they’re doing.
If it’s acceptable losses because hotshots are hotshots then I’m extremely happy I got out of being responsible for them & other resources on a division. I don’t need the tragedy on my conscience. Trying to save people from themselves by overcoming the ego is an uphill battle.
Watching from the sidelines. What a disaster waiting to happen, again & again. Nothing to see here, folks!
Trivia time:
What’s the biggest killer of hotshots?
Answer: hotshots.
I followed my concept of what it means to be a hotshot to it’s logical conclusion by reviewing the historical record of the Ferguson Fire Disaster of 2018 and it was writ large.
The Arrowhead Hotshots represented in the situation in question by one of their sawyers under the direct supervision on Captain Brian Hughes did what hotshord have done since the founding of the concept in 1947 – 48.
They lived up to the hype and met all expectations as the WLF premier light infantry force and took the fight directly to the fire armed with nothing more than the tools they could carry and prevailed in spite of all of the inherent failures and shortcomings of the WLF Industrial Complex they serve on behalf of the American people particularly in the area of receiving adequate training to proficiently and safely accomplish all of the tasks and perform all of the duties that we expect from them.
The system that we as taxpayers enable failed the Arrowhead Hotshots, but the Arrowhead Hotshots didn’t fail the system.
And I prefer to say that the Number 1 killer of hotshots is hubris.
Correction,
I should have written the phraseology as follows;
“…particularly in the area of receiving adequate ADVANCED training to proficiently and safely accomplish all of the tasks and perform all of the duties that we expect from them given the COMPLEXITY of today’s WLF environment.”
Do those wild land fighters carry wedges when falling trees? Yes logging is very dangerous–and doing it on a windy day can bring some surprises–everything right and suddenly the tree will twist and go with the wind despite a good hinge –have had it happen and with a tall tree you better know your escape routes. Working the ridges in the rocks you do need your good instincts and awareness–not an overseer that is bound to get killed and cause you to err.
It is debatable about what is more dangerous–logging, wild land fire fighting, mining or a bad horse. Maybe a bad horse cause I have had a few bad ones. A bad horse will attempt to kill you by jamming you under a strong branch in a sudden move. A strange horse might have been mistreated and has the will to do you in. But mining and fire fighting are alike in that the gods and goddesses of both willingly cover up and put your life at needless risk and who knows when you are going to have a boss alike to the Marsh type? With logging you are solely responsible for your life–You know damn well if you err you can die or be well maimed. But if you have an idiot that hangs around watching over the shoulder of a faller, then you have double trouble. Don’t you in the tamer conditions show a guy how it is done then get the hell out of the way? The old time logger knows best–ask if you don’t know but he is not apt to hang around so you can kill him because you do not know how to properly fall a tree. He will know just by looking at the stump how you are doing.
Best to listen to WTKTT on this tree business–he made a believer out of me with his analysis.
Yes…they wedged that tree as much as they possibly could to make it fall uphill after they clearly read the lean and other factors wrong. BUT…I think most trees want to fall downhill because of you know…gravity.
Unless of course there is a significant uphill lean and a bunch of heavy limbs on the uphill side, but even then, trees kinda want to fall downhill because of you know…gravity.
And there isn’t any question which profession is the most dangerous based on statistical data…it’s logging. Here are the top 10 according to one study.
https://www.themarlincompany.com/blog-articles/dangerous-jobs-2019/
1. LOGGING WORKERS
The occupation with the highest fatality rate is logging workers, with 135.9 fatal work injuries per 100,000 workers, which equates to 91 total fatalities over the course of a year. This makes logging the most hazardous job of 2019. Not only is the job physically challenging, it involves heavy-duty chainsaws and falling trees, putting the workers at a huge risk each day.
2. FISHERS AND RELATED FISHING WORKERS
Commercial fishing is far from the relaxing days at the lake that you might picture. As the second most dangerous job of 2019, commercial fisherman have a work fatality rate of 86 deaths per 100,000 workers. The cause of the deaths can usually be attributed to weather conditions, transportation accidents, or failing machinery.
3. AIRCRAFT PILOTS AND FLIGHT ENGINEERS
While driving is often thought of as more dangerous than flying, when it comes to fatality rates on the job, the pilots rank higher. On average, the occupation has a 55.5 fatal injury rate, which breaks down to 75 fatalities in a year, and almost all of them were caused by plane crashes.
4. ROOFERS
Since their job puts them off the ground for hours each day, it’s not too much of a surprise that roofing work is rated as the fourth most dangerous job. The fatality rate for this profession is 48.6, with more than 100 fatalities each year. As suspected, most of these are caused from falling.
5. REFUSE AND RECYCLABLE MATERIAL COLLECTORS
Collecting recyclables and trash is not only a necessary job, it is also a dangerous one. Its fatality rate comes in at 34.1, and most of these are caused by either the worker or the truck getting struck by another vehicle.
6. STRUCTURAL IRON AND STEEL WORKERS
Working with iron and steel beams and cranes all day is no doubt hazardous. Even though the materials they work with are heavy, most of the 25.1 deaths per 100,000 workers are caused by falling or slipping.
7. TRUCK DRIVERS AND OTHER DRIVERS
You know all too well how dangerous it can be to get behind the wheel. Even just driving to your office puts you at risk. So, imagine how much that risk increases when you drive all day long for your job. Due to traffic accidents, truck drivers and other driving professions, there is a 24.7 fatal work injury rate. This equates to an alarming 918 fatalities each year—the highest number of actual fatalities in any job.
8. FARMERS, RANCHERS AND AGRICULTURAL MANAGERS
Even with the technological advances in the past decade, farmers and ranchers still have to work with a lot of heavy equipment and machinery. They also work with a variety of motorized vehicles, such as tractors and lawn mowers, which are the main culprit in the 23.1 fatality work rate for the profession.
9. SUPERVISORS OF CONSTRUCTION WORKERS
Surprisingly, construction workers themselves did not make the top 10 most dangerous jobs of 2019, but their supervisors did. The job has a fatality rate of 18, with falls being responsible for half of the 134 actual fatalities. The other main risk factor for this job is being hit by another object.
10. GROUNDS MAINTENANCE WORKERS
You may be surprised to learn that finishing off the top 10 dangerous jobs list is groundskeepers and gardeners. It may seem simple enough, but groundskeepers are consistently exposed to the elements and sharp tools, giving them a fatality rate of 17.4. To put it in perspective, even though this is the last job on this list, that is still five times higher than the average work fatality rate.
Although I saw another study that said commercial fishing was number 1? In any case, logging is a very dangerous profession.
You young man…are very lucky to still be alive. Let’s see…a lifetime of underground mining, logging, cowboying, raising hell, a bunch of marriages, more serious heart attacks and surgeries than I can remember and then Charlie shoots you at point blank range in your back with a shotgun, plus a bunch of other things that I don’t even know about or I have forgotten.
But…I guess you already know that you have the luck of the Irish ☘️. Am I right?
Indeed you are right Gary.
☘
Sonny has some of the best real documented life happenings…the Irish in him has kept him here.
Even his son is amazed what his dad alone can do with telephone poles but I seen him move them all alone.
The man looks average size but one strong man 💪
Woodsman, never heard of having someone there with a dangerous tree–is that FS suggestion–though if using a crosscut you would need two or if the tree is so huge that you need a jack to move it instead of wedges. Maybe there is something I am amiss on there. I have cut some pretty big trees even in the NM Cloudcroft area back when they were logging the area. I have seen photos of flat cars that had only one huge log that took up the car–there was a railroad out of that area at one time that brought logs down. I think now a tree like that would be protected and I had never seen much larger that say 3 ft. diameter trees up there. We had a pretty good area then after a year and the spotted own and Sierra Club sued–were shut down and moved to a toothpick and sparse area. Since you are paid by the foot as a faller after bucking and cutting to length, sparse areas were disaster for pay and driving 45 miles from Alamogordo to the cutting area cost as well. The fire they had in that area did create some logging for a time–might be a good thing if some of the wild land fire fighters that want to be loggers ought to work as a logger for a time before attempting to fall trees in wild land fire fighting situations. Loggers get injured or killed generally by trying to free snags. WTKTT pointed out exactly what was wrong in the Hugh incident. I did not see the photo of the tree, only the downloads that WTKTT put out–but I can see WTKTT knows his business there and I would guess you have good logging experience as well.
I have not seen women fallers–likely a few around but like mining I never saw a lady miner either. My Mom never went underground eventhough the greater part of my Dad’s life was working underground. When I got busted up in a cave in at the Standard Oil Uranium Mine, that ended my contract mining career–they require a physical and any back operations keeps you away–so I did my own mining after and took up logging. You don’t get good a logging overnight–while a miner can take a jack hammer apart, replace a water needle, knows how to keep an oiler and a leg working and does everything from cutting number nine wire to fixing his jack-leg with a 9 inch pipe wrench–that logger better know how to keep that saw sharp, be able to tear one down and put it together, and certainly do the things WTKTT mentions–size the tree up and where to fall it to keep from snagging. I suppose the wild land fighter only falls trees and does not have to buck them. Well I know they don’t have to dig down two feet into the snow so they can leave a stump at 6 inches. Certainly, I would want to know what a dangerous tree is that I would need someone looking over my shoulder? I think if anyone ought to be looking over someones shoulder, it would be WTKTT with his expertise. Anyhow, if I were a wild land fire fighter using a chain saw I would perk up my ears if WTKTT wrote on the matter.
I have used skip tooth and full tooth–used to be a Husky man. But I paid over 900 for the last saw and it did not do so well–then I saw the chinese carb–they used to be Irish. The saws were Swedish–like those Swede rifles–extremely hard to beat.
Yet now I gave that one to my son Mark and am running a Stihl–about same price but have had no problems– say I cut over 50 railroad ties doing this porch– made of red wood, oak, and pine and nails tell me most are close to a century old–something I hate to do with a saw but had to be done. But then when you clear New Mexico cedar, it is full of dust and sand so you get good at sharpening a saw and adjusting the bar. I always kept at least two saws with me, sometimes three so I could keep moving and do all the service work later after a load and you never knew if something would break and you had to use a second saw or loose the trip.
What I saw that the GMHS crew were using, I though damn they should have talked to a logger before acquiring equipment. What I saw seemed to be a beast and something you would not need in this area–but then I was not the one carrying the saw so if you have a bear to carry a huge saw fine. I think I had a Husky 270XP for logging and a back up of a non-XP was it a 230?–most had Huskys back then. Maybe Stihls make a better saw now. Too much of this stuff is farmed out to China now and quality control might go out the door there. I think this Stihl is a West German product–Germans generally have pride enough they won’t want their name on junk.
Methinks WTKTT is a logger with all that information-I must agree of your assessment since I was a faller. Who trains those men? First off what the hell business did Captain Hughes have hanging around a tree being cut by someone else and it seems the way that fellow that was doing the cutting. Sounds like he notched against on the wrong side of the lean and then was doing some sort of undercut so no hinge. Whew, people have no clue of the danger when they botch a tree falling job like that. I did not see the tree but being hit by one or a branch as it falls can be equivalent to dropping a vehicle on that person. WTKTT knows that those winds can get squirrely as well so you damn well don’t want some yo yo standing there watching you fall a tree. But I did my share of falling and after the spotted own shut White Sands Lumber’s cutting contract down, I picked up and continued a good number of years –about ten–clearing cedar (one seeded juniper) for ranchers and the firewood. So all those years not once did I have a tree fall on me since I used proper procedures to keep alive as you would expect to do in any dangerous job. However once when I changed bar length it threw my cadence off so I did ruin a good pair of Levis and gash my leg while bucking a tree– but not so bad I had to go in–I finished that load and duck tape on the leg held things together. Something about chain saws–not a good thing for the timid and inexperienced to play with.
So who trains these men? Well there were 17 on the crew working Cloudcroft–only one bad accident in a year and that guy was cutting a leaner–a limb caught him –another killer proposition but you damn sure did not stand around or allow someone to stand anywhere near where you are falling. You would hope some experienced loggers would train these guys–not some dude that cut a few trees and limbs in his back yard. I would vouch for WTKTT on that one after reading his report.
People need to listen to the wise ones to keep safe and again why do these investigators take so long on a report like that. An experienced logger could have written up the report in a few minutes just by knowing the way they were attempting to fall a tree and the fact there was a bystander that should have been out of harms way. It appears that these investigations are purposely delayed in some instances and in others they are prolonged depending upon the whim of the investigator and how he can manipulate it into “Gods will”, or just another happenstance occurrence.
I know I menyuined another name for a logger to Woodsman but hands down I could write a book on you Sonny for you are by far the most beautiful artistic logger out there and anyone who wakes up and thinks I am gonna a make a man cave and you mucked and created a fine man cave. I broke loose Sonny. I am free. So you ever wanna go log…I will gladly as ling as you carry a Husky…you are the finest there is…the way you run a saw…no way any person reading this is better than you…how can Wtktt be a logger…a machine?
Log Splitter?
Feels good to be free.
Sorry for typos
Im doped up
Dog bite.
Cattle dog.
🐕
Send pics of the dogs…Sonny
I sent the pics they queued and again–I see the early dogs were in front of the porch when just a floor, now it it only lacking the two doors and screening in–the dogs think they own the porch–they love that 2×4 and 2×6 flooring.
I was indeed a decent logger and wooder and you have some pictures of those loads of Juniper that I would hand split and haul from Pinon, NM to Alamogordo or more often Roswell–I had developed customers that love their wood–for the atmosphere mostly. Especially the fly boys at Alamogordo and most the Germans in training there. It was surprising how many German pilots love their wood fires.
So much in life is common sense. It is just that some people never had the opportunity to use it. All the training and fire education means nothing if you do not use it or do not have the common sense to go along with it. One thing I was thinking that when my Dad had contained those lightening strikes, he did go in and report to the Forest Service. They seemed perturbed that he would even do what he did. I suppose they thought he was interfering with their job–but 35 miles into town and about 17 of rough road–it would have been hours before a response from the educated ones. And then they might have argued over whether they should contain a lightening strike or not like the Yarnell Department did. If we had tried to contain it, I believe we would have been breaking the law–but we would have saved 19–yet we could not know that those well trained GMHS did not have the know how to stay alive–or if they did they did not use that simple formula that starts with let the Big Dog Eat when there is no alternative.
I am of a mind that there were at least three back burns going there after my quasi-education here on IM and listening to all the old timer wild fire fighters. It only makes sense, especially since Holly revealed about those stobs there near the Helms—they (not GMHS) had to be cutting line there and doing a burn since the wind was away from Glen Isla and even the predicted oncoming winds would carry it away and up that canyon where the GMHS trapped themselves. Seems like the torchers would have been uninformed that the GMHS would attempt to outrun those backburns through that thick brush. So if I did put myself in the shoes of the fellows fighting the Yarnell fire, it would almost be an absolute given that those burns would be made.
The Idiot that ordered the GMHS crew down there to help with the burns should be fired–whoever was in contact with Marsh asking him about his comfort zone of going down. That statement should have never been made–it was a challenge to Marsh, the ever popular do or die person willing to risk his crew to join the burn fun.
So he killed them all for a few houses that could never have been saved in those wind conditions anyhow. How is it that the educated fellows could not figure that out
Dr. Ted told me that even that retardant is useless in those type conditions we had at Yarnell. One California Regional Lady Boss of the FS fire fighting operation said they do the dumps even when useless because it impresses the public. I think she was right but I wonder if also she knows that that shit can wipe out a third of the population of the elderly. Well the cyanide created from ammonium nitrate and phosphate on burning embers is the way to create cyanide. Zyclon B was Hitler’s method to eliminate those he figured useless to society as he wanted it. Kill the sick, elderly and Jew and whoever did not like his policies. Zyclon B is cyanide gas used in his death fumigation But I am glad someone is working on what are the hidden chemicals the companies do not want to reveal. Let me say anything that will kill verterbrates by the thousands–(the thousand gallons dispersed in the Fall River, OR wiped out six miles of them) ought to be given a very close look. And add the guinea pigs of Yarnell to the verterbrate list in the tune of 200 souls–Joy has the exact count.–then we have a disaster as hidden as the real cause of the deaths of the GMHS crew.
No, I am no special person–I would be the hillbilly that Donut speaks of–I have bathides–Joy rounded them up where the wind had swept them into the desert. I went through the University scene and I saw that a bathide makes an idiot out of too many people. Their head swells and they begin to believe they know something, then all of a sudden they loose track of common sense.
Politicians are that way-once with some decent sense of things they suddenly go bonkers. Some bosses are that way–once they move up the ladder they suddenly become the wise ass that knows it all and allows no one to challenge their supposed intelligence. Actually their intelligence remained the same–their head only got bigger.
So yes there were plenty of errors in killing the GMHS crew–but those were covered up instead they had to be heroes who knew what they were doing except bad luck caught them or God needed them to fight fires in Heaven. The excuses and run abouts to not face reality and clean up a mess.
My yard was a mess, my dogs were getting through my fence and getting shot by the friendly rancher and I was unable to do my work for a time. But now I lost about ten of my pine trees as well, but that has changed–the Yard is clean, the dogs are in, and the trees left looking good. No excuses–the way it works is when I work and if I don’t then all goes to hell. That should be the way the FS investigation worked, but instead we still see excuses–they excuse the inexcusable. This way there is no work, not changing the ugly yard of things to make it right. But you have those intelligences running things-right into the ground.
I liked Roswell–that little lady running the Alien Museum was part grey–you could not miss it if you met her. I think the greys are very intelligent–well she knew all about the Alien situation and you knew it was first hand knowledge. So if you wanted an encounter there it was.
Some things they do not teach in the Universities–maybe they don’t know them to teach them.
Joy, I am looking forward to your being the fire chief at Yarnell. Stay away from the dogs though.
How can I say what I say? It takes one to know one–my head might have swelled some but I did get a haircut–maybe that will help.
Freedom is the best way to go. I think we sometimes allow our power to be taken away and that is OK for a time since it makes you appreciate life better when you get it back. There are too many knotheads in life that are wannabe bosses as we saw at Yarnell. Maybe it is OK to be a sheep for a while but you become table scraps after a while. This world has plenty of wolves and lots of parasites, predators and worms. It is hard to distinguish among them sometimes. Who would have known that the worms would cover up the real reasons for the deaths of those young “GMHS–but it goes to show people are dull at mind and accept the situation because they believe the worms that eat at their dead minds. Yet in all the jungle there are quite a number of good souls doing good deeds and living in a decent and honest fashion. There are some that walk the line–well I have staggered a bit at times. Some of us are not perfect but we do keep a clean slate.
Free from what? Who or what has ever been able to make you, “not free?”
Another one of the final comments from the previous Chapter 26 ‘carried over’ to the start of this new Chapter 27…
On May 6, 2018 at 2:58 pm, Diane lomas said…
>> Reply to WTKTT regarding deployment site:
>>
>> Those expected to keep the deployment site undisturbed on 6/30/2013
>> overnight until the detectives arrived included the sheriff as was determined
>> earlier but also wasn’t Darrell Willis also committed to this task based on his
>> statement from the fire on 6/30/13 at 8:00 p.m. “Determined I would work
>> my way in with a number of other friends to guard and protect the scene
>> until investigation was complete in the morning”
On May 6, 2019 at 6:12 pm… WantsToKnowTheTruth replied…
Yes… but it is also very likely that Darrell Willis himself was the one who decided and/or carried out the plan ( with others ) to trapse all over the ‘protected’ deployment site in the middle of the night… just to lay TARPS over all the bodies… BEFORE the detectives had a chance to examine the ‘undisturbed’ site.
YCSO should have never let that happen.
It is still unknown how MANY people were allowed access to the site overnight.
Whether any of those people who were allowed access to the site overnight were also allowed to REMOVE anything ( before the detectives arrived ) is also a question that still remains to be answered.
Brendan Mcdonough testified to ADOSH that GM normally had at least 4 handheld GPS units with them when out in the field..
NO GPS Units ever showed up in the official evidence record… including the Oregon 450 GPS Unit that was clearly photographed earlier that same day ( by Christopher Mackenzie ) attached to Robert Caldwell’s pack strap
Two posts from Joy A. Collura’s Yarnell Hill Fire Revelations blog and a carryover of WTKTT’s May 4, 2019 (3:35 PM) post that follows
Staff Ride PART ONE – Do The Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Rides by Arizona State Forestry provide that specific perspective of strategy, technology, and leadership? After reviewing the 52 page Facilitator Guide – did you even take that route that day?
December 7, 2018 – Arizona Desert Walker Joy A. Collura and contributing other(s)
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/12/07/Staff-Ride-PART-ONE—Do-The-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Staff-Rides-by-Arizona-State-Forestry-provide-that-specific-perspective-of-strategy-technology-and-leadership-After-reviewing-the-52-page-Facilitator-Guide—did-you-even-take-that-route-that-day )
___________________________________________________________________________________________
Staff Ride PART TWO – Do the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Rides by Arizona State Forestry provide that specific perspective of strategy, technology, and leadership? After reviewing the 52 page Facilitator Guide – did you even take that route that day?
December 7, 2018 – Arizona Desert Walker Joy A. Collura and contributing other(s)
( https://www.yarnellhillfirerevelations.com/single-post/2018/12/07/Staff-Ride-PART-TWO—Do-the-Yarnell-Hill-Fire-Staff-Rides-by-Arizona-State-Forestry-provide-that-specific-perspective-of-strategy-technology-and-leadership-After-reviewing-the-52-page-Facilitator-Guide—did-you-even-take-that-route-that-day )
___________________________________________________________________________________________
WantsToKnowTheTruth says – May 4, 2019 at 3:35 pm
And as for people “not getting the memo” that the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride product was headed for obscurity after it was finished…you can ( apparently ) count former Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney on that list.
In an interview with the Prescott Daily Courier on April 29, 2016, the very week that another ‘dry run’ of the Yarnell Hill Staff Ride had just been performed, Whitney himself was hyping the ‘importance’ of it all as a “learning tool” for the entire WF industry, and also said that he expected it would be ‘conducted’ four times a year on an ongoing basis…
“Arizona Forster Jeff Whitney said he foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site.”
So somebody was bullshitting even “El Jefe”… while he was still actually working on it.
The Prescott Daily Courier
Article Title: Families, officials walk in final footsteps of the Hotshots
Published: April 29, 2016 6:02 a.m. – By Cindy Barks
From that article…
————————————————————————————-
PRESCOTT – When the State of Arizona and 12 families of fallen Granite Mountain Hotshots settled a wrongful death lawsuit in June 2015, the Arizona State Forestry Division agreed to do nine things.
Now, about 10 months later, a number of those points have been accomplished, and others are in the works, say officials with the State Forestry Division.
First on the list was a promise to conduct an eight-hour question-and-answer session with the Hotshot families to “review data and information and to answer questions posed by the families and their consultants/experts.”
Other points included the creation of “lessons learned” and “staff ride” documents to help prevent similar tragedies from happening in the future, as well as a number of steps toward improved training, technology, communications, and instruction on estate planning and family care plans.
Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney points out that the staff ride process has been underway for months, and is expected to wrap up before the three-year mark of the Granite Mountain Hotshot tragedy (June 30, 2016).
Creation of a staff ride was a requirement of the Hotshot lawsuit settlement that was reached nearly a year ago (June 29, 2015).
The process also is integral to wildland firefighting, and was among the recommendations of the Yarnell Hill Fire Serious Accident Investigation that came out in September 2013.
As Whitney explains it, a staff ride is a multi-phase process that has its roots in the military. First comes a preliminary study of the incident or fire, then an extensive field study of the actual sites where the fire occurred, and finally, an opportunity to integrate the lessons learned from the fire into future firefighting efforts.
The draft staff ride document from April 2016 lists five goals. First among them: “Create a memorable learning experience that helps participants make better decisions supported by the application of recent and relevant history.”
For Whitney, who in 1990 was on the team battling the Payson-area Dude Fire during which six firefighters died, the “lessons-learned” aspect is crucial.
“How can we prevent this from happening?” he said. “It’s important work.”
Whitney came out of retirement in January 2015 to accept Gov. Doug Ducey’s appointment as director of the Arizona State Forestry Division. He was a part of the mediation that culminated with the June 2015 settlement of a wrongful death lawsuit that family members brought against the state.
He stresses that the staff ride is not intended to be an investigation into “what went wrong?” Rather, he said, the exercise puts wildland experts into the place of those who made the decisions during the fire.
“It’s important that we get some clarity around what occurred there,” Whitney said. “And it’s important that we try to do everything we possibly can to equip our current and future fire managers with more information, so they’re better able to do situation awareness and opportunity recognition.”
The 47-page April 2016 Yarnell Hill Staff Ride draft included a step-by-step schedule for the team. Among the defined stops: the Yarnell Fire Station; movement to the ridge top on Yarnell Hill; a “sense-making and communication” session at the top of the ridge; descending to the saddle, defined as “closing the window;” and the fatality site, which the document refers to as “realized ultimate reality.”
Along with background about the crew, the draft staff ride document includes situational information, and the tactical decisions that were made.
The document notes that participants in the exercise would be “tracing the route and decision-making of the (Granite Mountain Hotshots) and their colleagues as they faced a rapidly changing fire environment in an effort to manage the Yarnell Hill Fire.”
Whitney said the family involvement in the Yarnell Hill staff ride was somewhat unique, because of its place in the settlement agreement.
The 40 experts who participated this week came various agencies all over the country. Their feedback will go into the creation of the final staff ride document.
Whitney foresees the Yarnell Hill Fire being a learning tool for years to come, with as many as four staff rides a year conducted at the site. (He said access to the site is still being worked out).
Noting that staff rides usually take eight to 10 years to complete, Whitney said the Yarnell Hill exercise is well ahead of the norm.
“We’re going to have this done in three years,” he said. I’m extremely pleased with the progress to date. It redeems the commitment I made.”
As long as we are ‘carrying forward’ some of the final posts to the previous Chapter 26, here’s one that remains relevant to the ongoing “Whatever happened to the Yarnell Fire Staff Ride?” discussion…
On May 5, 2019 at 3:05 pm WantsToKnowTheTruth posted…
>> Gary Olson said…
>>
>> …it is way past time for it ( the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride digital product )
>> to be on-line along with all of the other Staff Rides that cost a small
>> fortune in tax dollars to create.
It already IS. Has been for quite some time.
Just not where it ( normally ) SHOULD be… and THAT is what remains ‘bizarre’.
Thanks to John Dougherty and InvestigativeMEDIA… the actual ‘digital product’ was obtained through a valid Open Records Request, and has always been sitting online ( in all of its bullshit glory ) at the following PUBLIC location(s)…
The 2013 Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide…
https://www.dropbox.com/s/m1etsyqrn1kt211/Yarnell%20Facilitator%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
Special version of the YHF Staff Ride Facilitator’s guide used for the ‘Family Input’ trial staff ride that took place on April 5, 2016…..
https://www.dropbox.com/s/j3pa53281pl6m9p/April%20Staff%20Ride%20Guide.pdf?dl=0
So ‘they’ can’t ever say it doesn’t exist or was never finished.. The only thing that remains to be learned is why ‘they’ are not PUBLISHING it and making it truly ‘available’ along with all the other staff ride products already bought-and-paid-for with taxpayer dollars.
On May 5, 2019 at 3:17 pm, Gary Olson replied…
No kidding…you are right once again, the entire staff rude is there. I guess they are betting on the fact hardly anyone knows it’s there? Otherwise, why not just go ahead and put it on line with all of the other Staff Rides in the library?
WTKTT,
Brought over from Chapter XXVI:
As of 2100 hours, May 4, 2019, the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride is NOT listed on the OMNA website from the link you posted
( https://www.investigativemedia.com/please-begin-yarnell-hill-fire-chapter-xxvi-here/#comment-47822 )
“WantsToKnowTheTruth says May 4, 2019 at 12:35 am
“Speaking of ‘variety of information sources’….
“Even the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride Facilitator’s Guide ( as fully developed and endorsed by the NWCG ) refused to mention either the ADOSH investigation report OR the associated WFA report, even though the Wildland Fire Lessons Learned page for Yarnell still lists BOTH as valid ‘research’ documents with regards to the Yarnell Hill Fire.
“And if the NWCG never had any intentions of making that final Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride product part of its library… the “Omna International” group that was contracted by NWCG and U.S. Forestry to actually DEVELOP the Yarnell HIll Staff Ride never got that memo.
“Even now… “Omna International” is not only listing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride as one of their premier accomplishments ( on their home page, no less )… they are still listing it as one of their ‘Available Events’ that anyone can ‘schedule’.
“From Omna International’s own “Available Events” page…
“http://www.theomna.com/events.html
——————————————————
“Mann Gulch Fire Staff Ride
South Canyon Fire Staff Ride
Dude Fire Staff Ride
Thirtymile Fire Staff Ride
Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride”
——————————————————
The “Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride” is NOT listed 21 hours after your post. WTF!
CORRECTION:
It is in fact listed in the same order you posted, however, it is not scheduled anywhere.
You would think that June 2019 would most definitely be a good time to schedule one, ey
OMNA International Events link
( http://www.theomna.com/events.html )
Reply to Robert the Second (RTS) post on May 4, 2019 at 9:25 pm
>> RTS said…
>>
>> CORRECTION:
>>
>> It is in fact listed in the same order you posted, however, it is not
>> scheduled anywhere.
>>
>> OMNA International Events link
>>
>> ( http://www.theomna.com/events.html )
Yes.
There are TWO lists on that Omna International “Events” page.
1. ‘ Events that are CURRENTLY scheduled.
2. Other AVAILABLE Events that COULD be scheduled.
The Yarnell Hill Fire Staff ride is not CURRENTLY on their schedule, but they are obviously still advertising it as an Event that COULD be actively scheduled.
At the top of their ‘Events’ page it says this…
“To reserve a date for an event, send us a note from the Contact Us page.”
The implication there is that if anyone ( or any organization ) would LIKE them to add one of the ‘Available Events’ to their schedule ( including the listed Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride )… all you have to do is get in touch with them.
>> RTS also said…
>>
>> You would think that June 2019 would most definitely be
>> a good time to schedule one, ey
Yep… and since Arizona State Forester Jeff Whitney is on record saying he was under the impression ( while developing the Yarnell Hill Fire Staff Ride ) that it was to be performed as many as FOUR times a year… once a year on the anniversary would at least be a good way to start fulfilling that promise.
Yeah😊
A new chapter